From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Sun Sep 1 00:48:36 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 00:48:36 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Canon College: DEs and Aurors 101 (WAS "Despiadado" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43426 Sitting in the faculty lounge of the Canon College, Professor Eileen Lucky-Kari looks about for a colleague to gripe to about her students. Luckily, Professor George, who teaches logic to a most unresponsive bunch of Potter theorizers, and is internationally known as the founder of a school of philosophy known as S.W.E.E.T.G.E.O.R.G.I.A.N.I.S.M., is at hand, shaking his handsome head over a truckload of final essays for Severus Snape 101. "Severus Snape obviously went to a party one night, drank too much, and woke up with the Dark Mark. He never actually liked any of the other Death Eaters," George reads from the essay, his brow attractively furrowed in disapproval. "And she's circled "Instructor: Professor George," with little hearts." "Well, I get that a lot with Avery, but I suspect he thinks I'll up his marks for the hearts," says Professor Eileen. "No, my problem is Cindy. She's a brilliant student, all right, probably one of the most brilliant the Canon College has ever seen, but I think she's using the Imperius curse on me. And she has been stealing theories from undergraduates and claiming them for herself. Piracy, I think she calls it." "Call in the Ministery of Magic Moderators then," says George, failing the infatuated essay writer, and reaching for another paper. "That's much too reasonable. Can't you think of something more satisfying? Something involving werewolves, and ton-tongue toffees, and canary creams?" "I'm George," says the professor with admirable restraint. "Principal over passion, remember? And you really have to learn to control your emotions. You've been crying in class, haven't you?" "It's all Cindy's fault," Eileen says, breaking down again. George quietly pats her back. "She said... things about Crouch Sr. that..." Eileen is weeping. "What did she say?" She said, >At > first glance, this does look like a situation where a wizard is > actually apologizing, doesn't it? That would be almost > unprecedented in canon, wouldn't it? It would make Crouch Sr. > pretty darn special indeed. > > "But let's not forget something here. Crouch Sr. was *delirious* in > that scene! He was raving mad and chewing the rug! He didn't know > what he was saying! So if he was out of his mind, can we really be > sure that this was a true, heartfelt redemption? Besides, this > might have been a case where Crouch Sr. was just looking for a way > to save his own hide. Eileen weeps. "And then she started making very insinuating remarks about my personal life, in front of the entire class, > "But if you want to pine for Crouch Sr., we could try a "Comfort- > Hurt" theory ? a feeling that you had better comfort Crouch Sr. > before he *hurts* you. After all, power is the ultimate > aphrodisiac. And, uh, don't take this the wrong way or anything, > Professor, but we all know how much you like to be *hurt*." George smiles wanly. "You know, I'm only a Snape theory, so I'm not well qualified to comment, but doesn't canon already have that angle covered?" "Does it?" asks Eileen distractedly. "About Comfort Hurt and power being the ultimate aphrodisiac?" "No, about Crouch being delirius. Check it out," George hands Eileen his copy of GoF, extensively annotated in a neat hand. Eileen reads, ---------------------------- Then Ron said in a falsely confident voice, "But he was out of his mind, like you said, so half of it was probably just raving..." "He was sanest when he was trying to talk about Voldemort," said Harry, ignoring Ron's wince. "He was having real trouble stringing two words together, but that was when he seemed to know where he was, and know what he wanted to do. He just kept saying he had to see Dumbledore." ---------------------------- A smile lights up on Eileen's face. "So there you are," said George. "Harry's word against Cindy's. Which do you want to trust?" "But Cindy also said that Crouch could be just trying to save his hide." "And Snape could have just being trying to save his hide as well," said George with a smile. "Some people," he looks down at the paper he is reading and reluctantly gives it an A, "believe such things, and we have to tolerate their opinions. Still, I'm surprised that Cindy would believe in such a cynical and uninspiring reading of canon. What sort of pathos does she believe a movie-scene of self-interested maneuvring holds in comparison to a movie-scene of heart felt remorse and a birth of self-knowledge?" Professor Faith who has come in during the conversation and been closely listening adds, "And, there's a little thing called Occam's Razor. If Crouch seems heart-broken, full of guilt and remorse, wouldn't it be best to take JKR's portrayal on its surface, unless we have any reason to think there's something fishy about it?" George nods appreciatively at Faith who has co-taught several courses with him in the past. "So, are you feeling better," he asks Eileen, "or would you like to go for therapy at St. Mungo's. I could help you deal with your problems, you know." Eileen, remembering the last group therapy session with Elkins, Cindy, Avery, and Dr. George, declines the offer. "George, could I have your opinion on one of Cindy's arguments?" George pauses. "You're not actually asking me to give an opinion on another subject than Snape, are you? Because you know what happens when I do that. Elkins comes charging in here and accuses me of being a slut, flirting with every theory I meet." Eileen can't be entirely sure, but she almost thinks George has just fluttered his eyelashes. "Talk this one out with me, at least. I'm not too good at dramatic monologues. Here's what Cindy said." >Things get murky when we get to the subject of fleeing >suspects. See, cops aren't normally allowed to shoot a >suspect in the back when the suspect is trying to run >away. Not normally. But they *can* shoot suspects in >the back in one situation that might be >pertinent here ? when the suspect poses a danger if >allowed to escape. I think there are limitations on >this, of course. Like cops can only do this for >suspects who commit a serious crime in the >presence of the cop, maybe. I think there are other >limitations, like there has to be an attempt to >apprehend and a warning or something. That's basically >how I think it works in the muggle world. In the U.S. >About 15 years ago when I last read that law >textbook. Unless something has changed, anyway. "That sounds reasonable," says George. "I'm no expert in law, though, but I do feel that the suspect might not have to commit the crime in the presence of a cop. A man who is wandering about on a shooting spree would qualify. However, Cindy is basically right that police have the authority to kill in situations where they are not immediately defending themselves or bystanders. I think that's an extension of defense of self or others. What else did she say?" >"Now, it is entirely possible that, before Crouch >authorized the use of the Unforgiveables, the >wizarding rules didn't allow aurors to shoot suspects >in the back at all. Aurors *had* to try to hit them >with some spell and capture them if they were trying >to flee. "Now, this is where I'm skeptical," interrupts Eileen. "You see, that's so contrary to common sense. You'd have to be a bleeding heart of the bloodiest variety to ban all lethal force in the case of the Fleeing Suspect. Crouch relaxing the safeguards, I can see. But not his having to do away with a law that NEVER EVER allowed the auror to shoot the Fleeing Suspect in the back. Who would make that law? All those tough wizards we like to talk about?" George smiles. "Why do we have those safeguards, btw?" he asks in true Socratic fashion. "Because, if we don't, a cop can say "He was running, therefore I had to shoot him." It already happens often enough," says Eileen. "Exactly," says George. "Anyway, what was Cindy reacting to?" "Oh, Elkins said, >I think Crouch Sr. authorized Aurors to kill anyone >they damn well felt like, with little or no >accountability to anyone for their actions. "Of course," continues Eileen. "I don't think Elkins meant that Frank Longbottom was Avada Kedavring his neighbours for their tennis table while Crouch Sr. looked the other way. That's Dekulakization not the Potterverse." "Deku-what?" says Faith, her eyes popping out of her head. "Dekulakization and Collectivization from 1921-1929 in Soviet Russia. That was the title of a paper of mine that got a perfect mark. Naturally, I remember it quite well. Anyway, the Soviet government was sending people off to the Gulag for being "kulaks" i.e. rich peasants who exploited the proletariat. Only problem was that the "kulaks" weren't anything of the sort. It was a weapon of terror. Anyway, people were outing other people as "kulaks" for their tennis tables. Well, not for tennis tables, maybe, but you know what I mean." "I've read Solzhenitsyn," said George nodding. "Solzhenitsyn," said Eileen "is one of my favourite authors, and the Gulag Archipelago is one of my favourite books. Have you ever read the section on torture? You see in the civilized Soviet Union, torture was legal for most of the Stalinist and even pre-Stalinist area. You were supposed to apply to use it. And consent was easy to get. Still, the so-called investigators much preferred not to, to hide the fact that they were using torture. They preferred methods of torture that left no marks. And they were very good at it. Solzhenitsyn lists about two dozen preferred methods, IIRC. So when I heard that Crouch was tolerating Cruciatus, a form of advanced torture that left no marks, I went all Solzhenitsyn." "Very interesting," says George. "But the Case of the Fleeing Wizard?" "Wait a minute, George. I said that I really didn't see Dekulakization as a realistic role-model for the Potterverse, but I do know what the Pensieve scenes reminded me of. Paris after the German occupation. Malcolm Muggeridge, an eye-witness, puts it best. "It was, all things considered, one of the more squalid episodes in France's history, with, as it sometimes seemed, everyone informing on everyone else. The prefectures and the police stations were stuffed with accusatory letters; some even foun their way to the Boulevard Suchet. A whole people's sense of guilt found expression in this unedifying passion to accuse and to punish others, which, of course, also opened the way to a great deal of working off of private grudges and envies." Eileen pauses. "Back to the Case of the Fleeing Wizard. It's very easy to say that the suspect was fleeing and that's why you shot him in the back. Cindy, however, says >If the wizarding world adopted the appropriate >safeguards and procedures, it is entirely possible >that they adopted a system that was a reasonable >balance of the interests of the state and the >suspect in the Case Of The Fleeing Wizard. "And that's why Sirius was complaining?" asks George. >"After all, we don't know that there would be no >accountability if an Auror didn't follow established >procedure and killed on sight or something. As Elkins >said, the wizarding world does have a justice >system, and there's no reason to think Aurors had >immunity for criminal action if they abused their >authority according to whatever procedural >requirements were established "Well, they were accountable. To Bartemius Crouch Sr," says Eileen. "I doubt he'd countenance Aurors offing their neighbours for tennis tables, but Sirius claims in canon that he countenanced certain abuses of authority, including perhaps claiming "A Case of the Fleeing Suspect" when that was not the case." "Why did you mention Frank Longbottom?" asks George suspiciously. "You're not trying to involve Longbottom in this, are you?" "Of course I am," says Eileen. "What good's a theory without Frank Longbottom in it?" "Cindy didn't like it, I'm guessing?" "You guess right, George. She said >There are lots of ways aurors could become >popular. Maybe Frank demonstrated bravery and saved >someone's life. Maybe he was restrained like Moody. >Maybe he was just charismatic or dealt with the press >a lot. But if Dumbledore liked Frank, that suggests >that Frank wasn't all bad. "That last's not a bad point," opines George. "Of course, it's a good point. I've made it and so has Elkins. And Cindy just has to rub it in our faces," Eileen looks decidedly weepy once again. "Dumbledore likes Snape," says George earnestly. "You can still have Frank involved in some ill-advised abuse of justice and Dumbledore approving generally of Frank. Sirius and Lupin were about to off Pettigrew in the Shrieking Shack and Dumbledore still generally approves of them. All we know is that Frank wasn't all bad, not that Frank under extreme pressure, you must admit, always did the right thing." "George, that is brilliant!" says Eileen. "Just wait till I tell Cindy that. And... errr..." Eileen begins to blush. "George, I was wondering... Are you and Captain Tabouli still an item?" George smiles mysteriously. "Do you want to go out to dinner?" he asks, looking more handsome than ever. "I'll pick you up at six o'clock." At six o'clock, Elkins, Avery, and Cindy, sprawled out on the grass outside the Students' Union Building, watch as Professor Eileen runs out to Professor George's red sportscar, which speeds out of the parking lot at break-neck speeds. "Cindy, I've said it before, and I'll say it again," says Elkins. "That Snape theory is a slut!" "You're just jealous," says Cindy. --------------------------- For an explanation of the acronyms and theories in this post, visit Hypothetic Alley at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin20Files/hypothe ticalley.htm and Inish Alley at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows &tbl=13 From skelkins at attbi.com Sun Sep 1 00:56:35 2002 From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882) Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 00:56:35 -0000 Subject: Dirty!Harry and Stoned!Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43427 I wrote: > > By intervening to insist upon the recognition of a higher moral > > code than "he deserves it," Harry is acting as an agent of > > transformative and redemptive moral change, one which can serve > > to heal both the wounds of injustice and the wounds of the past. Dicentra replied: > As true as all this is, it seems so incongruous that Harry was on > the verge of killing Sirius only an hour or so earlier. Ah. But he *didn't,* now, did he? Once he was actually armed and therefore could do real damage, he balked. Harry doesn't blast Sirius the instant that he gets his wand back. He stands there looking down at him. He argues with him. He tries to justify what he is about to do not only to himself, but to *Sirius.* He tries to explain his actions. He rejects Sirius' excuses. He talks about what it was like hearing his mother's last pleas. He repeats the base accusation ("You did that") more than once. What he does not do, however, is actually take *action.* Even before Crookshanks intervenes, thus raising the stakes significantly, Harry is hesitating. He talks and he talks, trying to psych himself up to commit the act, but he never quite manages it. He hesitates. He balks at killing an unresisting and unarmed man. Jim wrote: > You're touching on something extraordinary about Harry: We've seen > over and over how he's the "man of action," whose instincts (with > preparation from Hermione) lead him right and save him time and > time again; and his unwavering moral compass. He just can't be bad, > it seems. Oh, he can be bad. Just not when it really *counts.* ;-) Yes. It is a bit frustrating, that, as it raises so many unsettling questions about "choice," but I really do think that instinct comes into play here. Harry isn't perfect by any means, but he does often seem to have heroic instincts. They lead him to do things like stepping in to intervene on Neville's behalf at the flying lesson in the first book. They lead him to speak up in Hermione's defense at their very first potions class. They lead him to do things like offering to share the Triwizard prize with Cedric . In this case, they lead him to balk at killing in vengeance someone who is unarmed and defenseless, and posing no immediate threat. Dicey: > His impulse to kill Sirius was pure hatred and vengeance, not at > all different from Sirius's desire to kill Pettigrew. Exactly the same, I'd say. And yet he balks. > So what changed? What persuaded Harry within that short time to > recognize this higher moral code? Well, I don't know that it's all that short a time, really. I'd say that actually, Harry is dealing with the question of "desserts" throughout the entire novel. It comes up over and over again: in his interactions with Aunt Marge and Vernon, in his conversation with Lupin. It's a central thematic concept in PoA. So he's really been working on it all year, in a way. By the time he hits the Shack, I'd say that he's already made a start on rejecting the moral code of vengeance. He *does* balk rather than killing Sirius, after all. He attacks Sirius out of fury when he is unarmed, and when Sirius seems to be an active threat. But when he has a wand in his hand, and Sirius is doing nothing but lying there on his back staring up at him? Nope. He balks. -- Elkins From tabouli at unite.com.au Sun Sep 1 01:46:32 2002 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 11:46:32 +1000 Subject: The Map, the Diary, the Hat and the Phoenix Message-ID: <002501c25159$6764e580$07da32d2@price> No: HPFGUIDX 43429 Marcus: > In the case of the Map's response to our favorite potions professor, I think it is the reaction of the creators' 15-year-old-selves to one. < Yes yes, but this does suggest that those 15yo selves are, in fact, "in there" somewhere, in some way, where they are able to "see" who is using the Map, or talking to it, and react to that person. By editing the display to show people in whom that person might be interested. Or insulting him, in Snape's case. Leon: > The map is a different object. Much more a tool than a repository of thought. And my personal feeling is that it was imbued with functionality. That it also took on the *personality* of the inventors seems to be part of the imbuing process. (...) The Ford Anglia is an interesting example, but I don't think it's really on a par with the Map and Diary. Or, for that matter, the Sorting Hat. In fact, the Sorting Hat is a better example of the sort of magical item I'm talking about - like the Map, it has one primary function, but also seems to have other powers which can be accessed under the right circumstances, such as delivering Gryffindor's sword. Where does the Hat keep its brain? Well, from memory, the Hat has had a little of all four founders' brains instilled in it, so they can assess the minds of children at the Sorting Ceremony. Just as, I presume, the Map has a little of the four Marauders' brains instilled in it. Yet the Hat speaks with only one voice, whereas the Map speaks with four. In PS/SS Harry doesn't mention hearing the different voices of Salazar Slytherin and Godric Gryffindor arguing about which house he should go into, he hears one voice speculating (whereas Snape sees all four "voices" from the Map). Is the Sorting Hat's voice an amalgam of the four Founders' voices? Is it Godric's voice? Was it the bit of Godric's brain that delivered the sword to his champion against Tom Riddle? Had it been Tom Riddle who put on the Hat, would the Hat have delivered him *Salazar's* sword, silver with emeralds, for his champion in the battle against *Godric's* representative? Or is the Hat intrinsically on Dumbledore's side? The other thing about the Hat is that it might have all four founders' brains in it, but presumably it actually *belonged* to only one of them (unless it's a Hat like the boot of the Ford Anglia which can magically expand to accommodate four heads). Something tells me it was probably Gryffindor's, which makes me wonder yet again about the rife housism in the series. The whole history of the Wizarding world seems to be in some sense a repetition of that first quarrel between Salazar and Godric about Muggles. Then there's Fawkes. I *like* this idea that Fawkes is Godric, or belonged to Godric. Him being red and gold, it seems more likely that he *is* Godric's, or Godric, that the repository of all four founders' brains. And, assuming he is, that would make *Dumbledore* Gryffindor's heir, wouldn't it? Hmmm. How about the heir of Gryffindor being decided not by heredity, but by Fawkes... He Who Owns Fawkes Godric's Mantle Shall Take? OK, so we've had Fawkes and the Basilisk. What about Helga's pet, and Rowena's pet? Is there an enchanted badger lurking somewhere in the series, to be the crucial weapon of the Heir of Hufflepuff? An enchanted eagle at the side of the Heir of Ravenclaw? (Why, somehow, do I doubt this?) I do feel a faint twitch at the general irrelevance of the two female-led Houses. Back to the Map. Marcus: >Now, could Harry talk to James? Perhaps, but I doubt it would be very satisfactory. It would be Harry talking to a 15-year-old boy with three best buds hanging around. Map James simply is not Harry's dad. Harry would do better looking at his dad's picture in the photo album.< Since the end of PS/SS, Harry has had the opportunity to look at his parents smiling and waving whenever he likes, but that didn't stop him secretly craving their voices in PoA. Of course there's nothing like the real thing, a live father of fatherly age to talk to, but if my father had died when I was one, I'd want anything of him I could get, however unsatisfactory in comparison with the real thing. Shadows out of Voldemort's wand I can see and talk to are better than a snapshot of my dad as a cheeky teenager, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't want to meet my father as a teenager. Wouldn't a lot of kids be curious to read their father's teenage diary, especially if they'd never known their father? I certainly would, and my father is alive and well (speaking of which, it's Father's Day today!). Leon> >I don't think the map or the Anglia can/would/will ever "aspire" to be more than they are. The map will not seek to join with other maps, or to coax someone to burn down the library to avoid competition. (...) > > The diary (and, I think, the Penseive) would not remain static. They would (the diary did!) attempt to evolve, progress, and attain. The diary had a "brain". It showed thought and initiative to launch it beyond it's current status.< The Pensieve records the past in a way someone can enter, but it doesn't, so far as we've seen, actively *do* anything of its own accord. So far as we know it's just a video recorder full of tapes from Dumbledore's life. The Anglia seems to have taken on the role of feral Weasley family pet. The Hat, the Diary and the Map, on the other hand, we *have* seeing taking independent action. They also use *words* to communicate (which the Anglia doesn't). And the Map, having some of James in it, has the potential to give us some of those long-awaited clues about the Marauder days we're waiting for. Like why does Snape hate James so much it spills over into Harry (quietly whistles "On the Good Ship LOLLIPOPS"). Leon: > I believe Dumbledore already has the main "function" of the map in his office, somewhere. I can't believe, I refuse to believe that Mooney et al were the first to come up with this kind of functionality. I mean, come on! Anybody here have kids? This beats those stupid wrist-leash thingy's hands-down. It's even better than the Weasley's clock. I think Dumbledore knows where everyone is whenever he wants to, whether in a map in his head or on the wall. He doesn't show up at the right time by luck. Not by a longshot.< Oh, I'm sure Dumbledore has something which provides the *basic function* of the Map, namely, a tracking device. He certainly seems to keep track of where Harry is, for example. However, unless he's *really* manipulating events a la conveniently arranging for three first years to get the Stone, he *doesn't* have something which reveals the true identity of someone. Most of the plot twists would collapse if he did. Dumbledore would, for example, immediately have figured out that Sirius Black was on the Hogwarts grounds in PoA, and minimal investigation would have established that he was the big black dog wandering around. He would have known immediately that the man he thought was Moody was a Polyjuiced Barty Junior. He would, surely, have noticed that Rita Skeeter was snooping around the school. He might even have been able to identify the Basilisk roaming the pipes, or detect that Voldemort was hiding in Quirrell's turban. Nope, I don't think he has anything so useful as the Map in that department. The Map combines several functions in a way which is extremely useful. It shows the user where significant people to him/her are. It reveals their true identity if they are in disguise. It tells its user how to enter secret passages. It insults the user's enemies. Those Marauder lads were really onto something. In fact... ...perhaps this gives us a clue to Harry's father's occupation! We know he inherited wealth, or at least, I seem to remember this from an interview with JKR somewhere. Could he have been a great inventor of intelligent magical objects? Did he, perhaps, develop the Foe Glass and the Sneakoscope at a precociously early age, only to have his brilliant career cut short by Voldemort in his early 20s? Is the cash stash in Gringotts that Harry inherited the accumulating proceeds of James' patented anti-enemy magical devices? Hey, it's a possibility... Tabouli. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From julie.k.stahlhut at alum.mit.edu Sun Sep 1 00:47:20 2002 From: julie.k.stahlhut at alum.mit.edu (starbug_56) Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 00:47:20 -0000 Subject: Past and future speculations -- and a bug Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43435 Disclaimer: I'm new here and haven't read all 2 years of messages :-), but have read the last several weeks' messages before posting for the first time, so please forgive me if any of my speculations on the past or future of the characters are already old hat. First, my speculations on the past: * James Potter's ancient (?) wizarding family will turn out to have been descended from both the Gryffindors and the Slytherins. I'm fairly convinced he shared not-too-distant ancestry with Tom Riddle (another possible explanation for Harry's being a Parselmouth, aside from Dumbledore's explanation that he may have acquired some of Voldemort's power when he survived the killing curse). * Some of the Slyther-ier members of the Potter family may not have been happy about a match between James and the Muggle-born Lily, and were a factor in their being targeted by Voldemort. * Alternatively, perhaps the Slytherin/Riddle descent is on Lily's side, and her family consisted of both wizards and Muggles. Perhaps her real "strangeness" within the family was not that she was a witch but that she was reputed to be kind. After all, we don't know *why* her parents were so happy to have a witch for a daughter. (Yeeeeshh, Petunia, Toon or not, has the personality of a Death Eater. She chose a cruel husband and raised a cruel son, and was clearly jealous of Lily. The Dursleys may be Muggles, but money is their Voldemort.) And, my speculations on the future: * If a Weasley is slated to die before this is all over, my bet would be that it's Molly. She's one of my favorite characters -- well, next to Fred and George -- so I really hope they all survive, but Molly would clearly risk anything to protect her children, and she's all but adopted Harry as one of her sons anyway. * Other characters who might die? Well, Neville, Cho, either of the Creevey brothers (whose roles I think will grow), and for some reason Draco Malfoy come to mind, in what I think is a decreasing order of likelihood. Neville has moments of surprising bravery, and I could see him taking great risks to protect his friends and avenge his parents' torture. Draco Malfoy, on the other hand, might just become a victim of his own impulsive cruelty, whether he's truly evil or just a bullying windbag. * I don't see JKR killing off Harry. I've wondered if his destiny is to become a professor at Hogwarts (perhaps they'll finally get that long-term committment from a Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher?) * I'd love to see more of -- don't laugh -- Gilderoy Lockhart, and I won't be a bit surprised if he turns up in the future, as comic relief if nothing else. And, as for the bug: Fie on Mary Grandpre for illustrating Rita Skeeter as a beetle with *eight* legs (in the last chapter of GOF), unless it was a deliberate, sly dig at Rita's competence as an Animagus, or Animaga as the case may be. (I'm an entomology geek in real life; I'll suspend my disbelief in magic all right, but not my pickiness about insect anatomy!) :-) Julie (starbug_56) From catlady at wicca.net Sun Sep 1 02:49:32 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (catlady_de_los_angeles) Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 02:49:32 -0000 Subject: Harry's imagination/which Twin is which/the Map/Wizard Populat'n/Mult-Campus Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43438 Amanda wrote: << Harry's experiences of people and interactions are hardly enough, in my opinion, to have allowed him to create such a rich world full of varied personalities whose function is to dispense wisdom he already, somehow, possessed. >> I rejoice in the excuse to repeat my theory that Harry has learned a LOT from television. We saw in PoA that Uncle Vernon watches the morning news; I assert that Uncle Vernon also watches the evening news and professional sports, Aunt Petunia watches home-making shows, gossip shows (especially about the royals?), tear-jerker movies, and the popular game shows, and Dudley watches *everything* in search of sex and violence. And Harry sits in the back of the living room, because that way he is more convenient accessible to run fetch more snacks for Dudley or another beer or Vernon than if he were in his closet. Abigail wrote: << I will persist in my claim that the twins have no character depth whatsoever until someone points out a way of telling them apart.) >> Actually Jana (george_weasleys_girlfriend) long ago wrote a long essay proving that George is the nice twin that originated as http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/16582 and I can't remember what website houses a more developed version. Tabouli wrote: << If it had been McGonagall who demanded that it reveal its secrets, would the stored Marauders have recognised and insulted her too? What if it had been Dumbledore? >> There was a thread on FAP suggesting what insults the Marauders might have "programmed" into the Map for other people trying to pry into it. http://www.fictionalley.org/fictionalleypark/forums/showthread.php?s=& threadid=12598 My favorites are the thread-starting post, from Cat Feral: << Have you ever wondered if they rigged the map for anyone else? What would have appeared if McGonagall, for instance, had caught Harry with it and tried to find out what it was? "Mr. Moony presents his compliments to Professor McGonagall and reminds her that curiousity killed the cat." "Mr. Prongs concurs and suggests that our Bonnie Highland Lassie go transfigure something!" "Mr. Padfoot greets Professor McGonagall and wonders if she would like to be chased up a tree?" "Mr. Wormtail assures Professor McGonagall that he has no intention of putting himself in the middle of this!" Ok, ok, if she had any idea who these nicknames belonged to (and she probably did) they would have to have had suicidal tendencies to put in some of those messages! Still it makes one wonder. Were there any special messages to Dumbledore, in case he ever found it??? >> I imagine them getting very giddy, and whatever is the male equivalent of giggly, as they think up funny insults for everyone they can think of, for people whom they like and respect as well as people whom they hate and despise, for people whom they would NEVER dare to insult to their faces. Being intoxicated on their excitement over the map, the secrecy in which they are having this conversation, and their safety from being discovered by any of the insult-ees. Safety because 1) they don't expect any outsider actually will get a hold of the Map, 2) the outsider would think the Map was scrap parchment and chuck it out rather than thinking it a magic artifact and trying to activate it, and 3) the outsider would never recognize them behind their clever pseudonyms. Prefect Marcus wrote: << In today's culture, there are about 200 people in the population for every 1 student in a given year. Now assuming that wizards live twice as long as muggles, make that 400 to 1. >> Prefect Marcus wrote: << So the 20:1 ratio is pretty consistent. >> Prefect Marcus wrote: << Double that for longer-lived Wizards = 160:1 >> I have only logic, not facts, but the way I see it is: the students in one grade of school are the babies born in one year: one year's crop of people. So if the population was stable, there would be the same number of people born each year and the same number of premature deaths leading to the same life expectancy. So the ratio of one year's crop of people to the whole population should be the ratio of 1 to the life expectancy. So 1:200 indicates either a life expectancy of 200 years or more probably a rapidly decreasing npopulation, and 1:20 indicates either a life expectancy of 20 years (and a lot of teen-age child-bearing) or a rapidly increasing population. Jim Ferer wrote: << Madame Malkin's, for example, might sew robes from scratch (they don't appear to, since Harry and Draco are getting theirs altered) but there's no sign of a loom there. >> Magic raises questions about raw materials and intermediate products ... do robe-makers buy cloth or conjure up cloth? If the robe-makers buy cloth (probably from a middle-man, a jobber), is it cloth that was conjured up or Transfigured from raw materials by wizarding clothmakers, woven (perhaps on magical looms) by wizarding weavers in scattered homes or in factories, or woven by Muggles? If it was woven by wizards (whether Muggle-ishly, on enchanted looms, or simply by waving a wand over a pile of warp and woof threads), where did they get the raw materials? Asking where they get cotton and wool and silk fiber is similar to asking where they get food items: are there wizarding farms who grow grains, fruits, vegetables, and meat animals and sell at wizarding Farmers' Markets or to wizarding butchers and bakers and greengrocers? If there are no wizarding farmers (whose existence JKR could easily prove by Ron mentioning an uncle, aunt, and cousins who are a farm family), do they conjure up this stuff or do they buy it from Muggles? If they buy it from Muggles, what do they think about pesticides and synthetic chemical fertilizers and genetically modified foodstuffs? Grey Wolf wrote: << The other campuses would also be divided into the four traditional houses, since they are more recent than Hogwarts, and probably appeared when the wizard population got bigger. (snip) it's altogether possible, anyway, that the quidditch teams are formed with students from all the campus, >> Thank you, dear Wolf, for publicizing my theory so well. You said many things right and nothing wrong, but you went a little further than I have about the Houses at the other campuses. Before now, I had absolutely no idea whether the other campuses had the same Houses or different Houses. It would be good if they had the same Houses, so adult life would have (at least) two partly overlapping Old Boys (and Girls) Networks: for example, the Old Ravenclaws, from all campuses, and the Old Woodcroftians, of all Houses. (Using my example that the hypothetical campus at Woodcroft could be *named* "Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry at Woodcroft" and *called* "Woodcroft School".) However, the other campuses couldn't have the same Houses unless they had the same Sorting Hat. This Sorting Hat was made by the Founders themselves to choose the students they themselves would have chosen, and the wizarding folk wouldn't have dared to give the Founders students chosen in some other way. Of course, they could have the same Sorting Hat if each school started on a different day. Then the Sorting Hat could attend all their Arrival Feasts. Brought there by the Headmaster, who would speak at each Arrival Feast... He could also speak at each Leaving Feast (if they each were on a different day), but he couldn't attend all their Halloween Feasts. I don't know if the wizarding population actually got *bigger* as the Muggle population did, or if the wizard simply got more interested to sending their children to wizarding school (instead of apprenticeship or Muggle school) as wizards grew separate from Muggles and as wizarding school became more famous. I think each campus has its own separate interHouse Quidditch. I would like the winning House team of each campus to have play-offs (if there are four campuses, that would be semi-finals and finals), but even I admit that contradicts canon. Tabouli wrote: << MCHAPPYMEAL (Multiple Campus Hogwarts Augments Population, Purporting Youngsters Might Enter Alternatively Located Schools). >> A Tabouli acronym of my very own! I am happy! Grey Wolf wrote: << Snape teaches 14 groups (since he doubles), 4 hours/week to a total of 56 hours. The DADA also teaches 56 hours/week (28 * 2). >> I have a vague impression that some classes meet twice a week for one hour a meeting, which would be the same 56 hours (28 * 1 hour * 2 days). but aren't there any classes that meet THREE times a week for one hour a meeting? Anyway, I've tried to figure out Snape's work hours, and the best I could come up with was Monday to Friday is 8 hours a day of the 1st thru 5th years, and maybe the classes for 6th and 7th years are smaller enough (maybe people who didn't get a Potions OWL don't take them) to be for all four Houses combined, so the sixth year class and the seventh year class could meet on alternate Saturday mornings, thus leaving Snape's Saturday afternoons for snooping around after Harry. To make this work, I had to imagine not only that some students drop Potions after fifth year, but that sixth and seventh year Potions students do a lot more work on their own, in small groups, or with teaching assistants, and don't need as much classroom time with the professor. (To me that is illogical, because I'd think that the advanced students would be the ones who have advanced questions that need the expert Professor to answer, while the beginning students are the ones who could get by with just the teaching assistants.) Even so, he would be spending *all* his nights correcting homework, grading exams, preparing the equipment for classroom demonstrations, etc. From dark30 at vcn.bc.ca Sun Sep 1 02:15:55 2002 From: dark30 at vcn.bc.ca (tbernhard2000) Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 02:15:55 -0000 Subject: Abstemiousness with truth - the careful fantasy world of Potter In-Reply-To: <00a801c2512e$77db4740$0a7763d1@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43439 replies to Marcus and Amanda My so-called reading, just to make a general point here, is not hooked to this or that literal inner working of the canon - I am talking about the canon as a whole, its outer workings, as it were, or, more precisely, the commerce of truth in the books, and what that might mean in terms of the popularity of Potter. (Aha!) Why are tens of thousands of adults discussing it in minutest detail? Is talking about Harry Potter like discussing last night's game? Is it like discussing real news? Is it catharsis? There are thousands of fantasy worlds created by thousands of authors, none have had this impact. So why Harry Potter? This is the origin of my reading - self-conscious, critical, and not of the "my favourite characters are Moody and Snape" (true) or "just how bad is Fudge?" (very) sort. Isn't it rather more a question of why everyone seems to have these generally pronounced preferences for certain characters? Or how is it Fred and George, and our enjoyment of their antics, can lead to such debates as have recently appeared in this group? Marcus: >...unless you are prepared >to tell me that he keeps daydreaming and daydreaming and daydreaming >the same scenario over and over and over again until he gets it right >and all the details worked out. Amanda >If this is a true interpretation, why does he come back to the Dursleys, to >"reality," at all? Why does he not allow himself to "stay" at Hogwarts over >the summers, too? Will you tell me Harry has internalized the pattern of >terms and holidays to the point of being unable to escape it, or will you >say that all of the experiences with reality that he cannot otherwise deny >or sublimate are compressed in his fantasy to the summer break? darkthirty: In a manner of speaking, yes, I am saying that, just as WE go over the details of the books, over and over again, trying to "get it right," in this group, for example, so might someone imagining a way out of a hopeless, helpless situation go over the details of their life, trying to get it right. (Or, for that matter, the person writing the books.) But again, it is no simplistic "Harry is dreaming this and the author at the end will have him wake to his dismal world." What I read in the books is, at times, or rather, partially, all the time, the dismal world behind the fictional story of a boy's progress through a magical world that accounts for, and explains, much of what he has had to put up with in the non-magical world. I don't see it as simply a silly narrative technique of Rowling's, as I have stated. Whether or not she has any commerce with such ideas as mine is not the point at all. I am not discussing, and do not mean to discuss, something that only Rowling knows. What I am discussing is the sense I get, from various key moments or trends in the books, that the stepping, the walking, through this magical Potter world, is extremely careful, that the meting of so-called truth, which I freely admit IS a narrative device, indicates to me also not only a fear of continuity problems - that is, structural problems with the series of novels itself, also well accounted for by the author herself, Rowling's fear, I suppose - but a fear of falling into the chasm, the gaping void, as it were, just where narrative borders on the real. Think how carefully Grindelwald is placed in time, but not, to this point in the story, examined. Why is that? On the same card as the reference to Ten-pin bowling! Now, to me, that particular juxtaposition is an overt signal of something a bit more meaningful that just an example of Rowling's sense of humour, which is one of the techniques she uses for giving us an "out" as it were, from belief. The muggle artifact collecting of Arthur - a little wink to we adult readers, and a reasonable fascination for an odd sort of wizard to the youngsters. The author is, as far as I can tell, quite clearly "playing" our world, alluding to it, but I don't believe the reason she is doing this is merely to make the books "fun" for adults to read to their children, or "reasonable" to the kids, or anything quite like that, though that is partially the reason, no doubt. No, some of these "allusions" are very dark indeed - the muggle air show at the Quidditch World Cup comes to mind. If the fantasy world reading truly doesn't "exist" in the books, we adults, we thoughtful and critical readers, would have to invent it. Do we not, if fact, dance around it, in our discussions of the Potter books in hundreds of groups or lists, tens of thousands of fan fictions, dozen scholarly works etc.? Amanda >Further, there are a few scenes where the story is *not* filtered through >Harry's perceptions or colored by his presence. darkthirty Since Rowling has clearly stated who Hermione "is," (I wonder...) the books are, in one reading anyway, an exposition and extrapolation of "someone else's" fantasy, and the narrative focus is always a step removed from young Potter. Book 1 Chapter 1 is Rowling's, or, like David Copperfield, in another voice, a "knowing presumption." Once some details of the history are told, however, there is a narrative shift, as there is in Copperfield. That is to say, for the rest of the books, the narration pretty much follows Harry's progress. The chapter may not read all that different from the rest of the books, but there is no question that a narrative shift has taken place. It might as well have been called a prologue, since that is really what it was. But see my later point regarding Rowling/Hermione. When Rowling abruptly turns our attention from Harry and Molly in the hospital near the end of GoF, just who is being protected, or what? (Well, literally, Harry IS being protected, from Skeeter.) The carefully constructed character of Harry Potter? Hermione's, or rather, Rowling's image of him, and, by association, ours? Are we being protected, from direct exposure to Harry's pain? Would crying break Harry's isolate attractiveness, sad as it is? If so, why would that be bad? Would we, as readers, turn from it, from the books? Is Rowling protecting her character? What exactly does that isolation mean, and why do we not really want him to cry? I would answer by saying that the danger here is that this careful fantasy world will crumble into dust not because of some plot hole, some careless story thread, but because Harry's "character," the central column of the structure that is the books, would break, and the defense against the dark world would crumble. Rowling writes this scene pretty unambiguously, don't you think? In much fan fiction, of course, a big deal is made about Harry finally crying for real, because the writers are on to something, but no one seems to tackle it at the core. Fan fiction doesn't read like the canon, not on this level to which I refer. If Harry started crying, he wouldn't stop until he found himself in our world, until we found ourselves back in our world, in a manner of speaking. We want Harry to stay isolate until that bad guy Voldemort is defeated, to satisfy OUR desire for resolution, OUR hope for a fantasy world (Potter) that pays OUR "deepest desires" some account. But there is no truth in it - in that sense, the Potter books are very much Erised. Amanda >I'd think that if he were trying to >rationalize his fate by inventing the safety factor (of the Dursley's house, ed.), that would be one of >the first things his fantasy addressed. Nor does he seem to embrace >ignorance; he receives knowledge gladly. He does not go seeking information, >but he does not hide from it. darkthirty The Dursley's need not be any more real than the rest of the Potter world, muggle or magical. I didn't say my reading was any more unambiguous than Rowling's writing. In the book, the question came when Potter had a chance to possibly NOT stay at the Dursley's. Perhaps he'd had no hope of such a thing before. To answer your other point, I think it is damn near impossible NOT to learn, wherever and whoever we are. As more evidence of my point, I put forward Harry's admission that he fears dementors (insanity, or, if you will, loss of mind, de-ment - described in the book as loss of all happiness, that is, in my reading, loss of the fantasy world) more than anything or anyone else. It is his mind that is his safety, or feels most threatened. Not his heart, not his mother's (and we do not know who his genetic mother is, for certain, at least from the canon, as all references to his mother could well be made about an adoptive mother, no references to Lily having ever been pregnant etc.) love, but his mind. Out of curiousity, what did you make of that particular revelation? Why would Harry fear insanity more than he fears Voldemort, unless Voldemort were merely an idea of evil, or rather, a representation of the forces he sees in array against him, and insanity was a far more immediate, constant danger? He fears it because it would cost him the only idea of happiness he has, which is more than a little mythic. He might also be equivocating (fantasy world) where equivocation is impossible (magical world). Amanda >a realistic world would be one >where it is not only possible but probable and likely that he fail. Is that >correct? darkthirty That significant allies keep important truths from Harry indicates to me that he, the abused boy, is imagining them, is creating meaningful contexts for his helplessness, positing allies, where perhaps there are too many enemies. I don't expect realism from the Potter books, not the sort I think you are referring to. The reading can be realistic. >> How is this possible? Are we to assume fate, a grossly misunderstood >> concept in my opinion, being myself something of a secular calvinist, Amanda >"Calvinist," deriving from a proper name, should be capitalized. (Sorry. >Can't help it. Personality defect. Cursed by an editor at birth. Etc.) darkthirty Generally I capitalize the word. >>His staying was not quite a decision; rather, as >>he later reflects, it was an action, the right one, we agree, made in >>ignorance. A bit of pathos. Amanda >I'm not at all sure I know what you're saying with this. The second task, >the Egg? darkthirty The second task was rescuing valued people from the lake. The egg was a way of delivering (or not) information about what that task was. Amanda >You must have been coming in through that third-corridor route. Watch out >for the three-headed one. darkthirty I prefer a different way of writing, but this is as close as I can come to what I think Fluffy expects. In conclusion, let me restate that I never said "this is all the daydreamings of Harry." (More like, "this is all the daydreamings of a hundred million fans.") For one thing, daydreams are normal. Fantasy worlds are pathological, sometimes, in some situations, and great art other times or in other situations, or even at the same time. There is other danger in trying to impose artificial naivete upon a literary work, which, for some reason, has caught the imagination of the world like no other. For another thing, I have stated, perhaps not loudly enough, that it is not only not the only reading, but it is not my only reading. It is a parallel reading, as the magical world in Potter is parallel to the muggle world in Potter, which are distinct, but have points of contact. The fantasy world of Potter tries to account for many muggle world events or situations, where Harry is involved. Part of the attraction is that Potter can do the same thing for ourselves. What I do not think Rowling will try is to have these books attempt to account for the general reality of our real world, just as what happens in the magical world does not account for most of what happens in the muggle world. If she did, she'd be a very crazy Potter, and we'd be crazy to accept it. Perhaps this is the difficulty for her in the later books. (That would be the ghosts of Grindelwald delay theory, perhaps, or the broken pin-setting machine theory.) The gist is that, just as Harry has to continue, his heart's quest, his sanity (his fantasy world), as it were, to believe, in spite of obstacles or enemies, mendaciousness or hostility in his path, so must we readers, in the face of the absolute impossibility of the novels' premise, believe. Without this fantasy world reading of which I speak, Rowling is far too easy a time of it, especially for we adult readers, in startling contrast to the experiences of Harry Potter. And the books would not be a tenth as popular as they are. Perhaps we should question whether Rowling really is Hermione at all. Myself, I think she's more Harry than anyone else. Supposing this to be the case, supposing Rowling's comment about being Hermione must be taken with a grain of salt, wouldn't my reading become a little clearer? (Please don't make me say it!!!) It's like knowing that this reading is quite possible, but believing anyway. First, one must acknowledge just how much one is "suspending disbelief." Otherwise, it is merely a blab about last night's game. darkthirty From jferer at yahoo.com Sun Sep 1 03:22:53 2002 From: jferer at yahoo.com (jferer) Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 03:22:53 -0000 Subject: Getting the Goods in Wizardom In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43440 catlady_de_los_angeles (Rita):"Magic raises questions about raw materials and intermediate products ... do robe-makers buy cloth or conjure up cloth? If the robe-makers buy cloth (probably from a middle-man, a jobber), is it cloth that was conjured up or Transfigured from raw materials by wizarding clothmakers, woven (perhaps on magical looms) by wizarding weavers in scattered homes or in factories, or woven by Muggles? If it was woven by wizards (whether Muggle-ishly, on enchanted looms, or simply by waving a wand over a pile of warp and woof threads), where did they get the raw materials? " You know, we don't have a window on the wizard world through the Harry Potter books, we have a tiny little peephole, and 90% of our debates arise from that fact. Those are all excellent questions. We do know that magic is to the wizarding world what science is to us, so it would be used in everything wizards do. For no particular reason, I tend towards the "low-tech" view of wizarding - IOW, magic would be used to spin thread and then run a loom, instead of cloth being just conjured up. I believe there's limits to magic, some of them self-imposed. I once postulated for a story that wizarding parents mostly change their babies the same way we do, instead of by magic. Why? It strengthens the [magical] bond between parent and child. By the Law of Contagion, objects become more related to the makers the more the makers are personally involved in making them. If that law applies in Harry's world, then if you make an object with your own hands then it is more bound to you, more "yours," than an object you buy or conjure up. Since wizards are closer to the things they make and use than us impersonal, industrial Muggles, I find that idea more attractive. Proof? None at all. As far as food goes, I feel it must be that wizards' food sources are the same as ours. If wizards could conjure up all their essentials - food, clothing, and so on - then there wouldn't be any Galleons, Sickles, or Knuts, and the Weasley's "poverty" would be meaningless. From chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com Sun Sep 1 03:40:34 2002 From: chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com (alora67) Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 03:40:34 -0000 Subject: Predictions for Draco In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020831125410.01f10ec0@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43441 Carol wrote: > 3. Draco Malfoy will become the new potions master when Snape leaves to > become Head of MOM. > Malfoy has always been Snape's favorite student, and it is possible that > Snape recommends him. I don't think that Malfoy will undergo and > Dickensian end-of-story transformation, so he can go right on being a nasty > git, just like Snape. However, I do think that he opted not to go to the > "dark side" with his father, who clearly from Book 4 goes back to > Voldemort, along with Crabbe and Goyle's fathers. Malfoy is a prejudiced, > mean little cuss, but perhaps he'll stop just short of becoming a death > eater. Perhaps Voldemort will kill Lucius Malfoy for some minor infraction > which will make Draco see dark wizardry differently. He'll still be > prejudiced and mean, like Snape was, but he'll help fight against Voldemort. I agree that Draco will not become a full-fledged Death Eater. I just can't seem to believe that he is all bad, somehow. But then, I may have a case of Draco poisoning from Cassie Claire's Draco fanfics ;-). But I don't think he will be a potions master. I tend to think/predict that someday he would make an excellent DADA teacher. Why not? Who better has been brought up, possibly skilled at an early age in the Dark Arts? It probably won't happen, but I still think it would be a good outcome for him. Alora From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Sun Sep 1 04:09:14 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb P) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 21:09:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hogwarts: A tight schedule In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020901040914.67744.qmail@web13006.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43442 grey_wolf_c wrote: They are really one and the same. The total number of groups in the school is 4 groups/year * 7 years = 28. Thus, Snape teaches 14 groups (since he doubles), 4 hours/week to a total of 56 hours. The DADA also teaches 56 hours/week (28 * 2). Most listees will probably know that the number of hours a week is 40, and recently, sindicates ask for 35, but that's not the worst of it. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't know that this really helps poor Professor Snape very much, but I seem to recall that, on one occasion, breakfast was mentioned as being around 8:30 in the morning, leading one to believe that classes couldn't begin much before 9:00 am. (I believe that, in third year, when Hermione has her overlapping schedule, she has more than one class listed at 9:00 am, and nothing as early as 8:00 am.) If lunch is at noon, and, as has also been mentioned, there is a morning break between the first and second classes, it seems that most classes are only about ninety minutes long, minus a little time for those breaks (so maybe 80 minutes or so). This would mean multiplying Snape's fourteen groups by three hours, not four, reducing his teaching time to 42 hours from 56. An improvement, to be sure, but still not terrific. I also have gotten the impression that, as before lunch, there are only two class periods after lunch each day (when they have Double Potions or Double Divination, that seems to last the entire afternoon, and I doubt classes are longer in the afternoon than the morning, so that would be about three hours also). However--since this would give four class periods per day over five days, that would give each instructor only 20 class periods. This would mean that Snape could teach each class once and only six classes twice. I strongly suspect that every year is not getting as much instruction as you might think (I don't remember the first years being in class all that much) and it's possible that sixth and seventh years are actually only in class for one period a week and otherwise expected to do a lot of work outside the class time, perhaps signing up to use the Potions dungeon during the evening and on weekends for potions that take a very long time to prepare and simmer. Or (and I hate to fall back on this yet again, but it's really very reliable), the problem once again could be that JKR didn't really work out how the the teachers would manage to teach all of the students and didn't really care since we only ever see Harry in class. I strongly suspect that no matter how one cruches the numbers, it would still be out of whack, and that the author's basic innumeracy means it might be rather headache-inducing to even try. (And yet I, too, have thought about this, obviously. Ah, well. A glutton for punishment..... ) Personally, I'm not really upset that most of JKR's brain is not given over to numbers and is instead given over to being able to invent these books. There are plenty of mathematicians in the world, IMHO, and not nearly enough people who are able to give so many people so much consistent enjoyment. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catlady at wicca.net Sun Sep 1 04:28:17 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (catlady_de_los_angeles) Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 04:28:17 -0000 Subject: House colors / The Thread about Bullying, with lots of MWPP - SS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43443 Tabouli: << I do feel a faint twitch at the general irrelevance of the two female-led Houses. >> Look at the House colors: Gryffindor red and gold, Slytherin green and silver, Ravenclaw blue and bronze, Hufflepuff yellow and black. And we all know the meanings of gold medal, silver medal, bronze medal, and no medal. Speaking as a Ravenclaw, g'rrr at JKR for making her favoritism so clear. (Well, speaking as a Ravenclaw whose favorite color is blue and LOVED the old idea of Ravenclaw's colors being blue and silver.) Well, to be fair: in heraldry there is no bronze and no yellow. There is only Or (translated 'gold'). So the Gryffies get gules and Or, the Claws get azure and Or, and the Puffs get Or and sable. Only the Slythies get argent instead of Or. Thus emphasizing their "House that stands alone" status. I borrowed those House nicknames from FAP because I like them. I think they're cute. But I also note that the two male Houses get the first part of their names used and the two female Houses get the last part of their names used. Coincidence or unconscious sexism? ***************************************************** Elkins wrote: << Here in the US, having been "unpopular" as a child often carries with it a certain cachet of moral virtue. "Popular" can be a bit of a bad word in some circles in the US, I think, because we tend to assume that all schoolboy targets are ipso facto innocent victims. >> Not that I've ever noticed (and I have lived in USA all my life), but then, I'm not very firmly connected to the real world and normal people, so what do I know? Elkins had previously written: << Research into the psychological profiles of bullies in both Scandinavian and English-speaking countries has found that cross- culturally they exhibit the following traits: -- physically strong and/or coordinated -- socially popular -- assertive with both peers and adults -- high levels of physical courage -- very high levels of self-esteem -- impulsive -- feel little or no sympathy for victims (lack remorse) -- positive attitudes towards violence -- low levels of empathy -- difficulty recognizing or understanding their own and others' emotions -- competitive -- lack self-reflection -- resistant to compromise >> and I was immediately tempted to reply that that seems to me to be a list of characteristics, not of the kind of bullies who are socially disapproved of, but rather of young people who are destined to be very successful in adult life, from getting athletic scholarship at a university where they make many friends who will be useful powerful people in adult life, to great success at a first job as a salesman, leading up the career ladder to management and CEO-hood (perhaps by a detour into founding their own start-up, attracting vast amounts of venture capital, and getting immense wealth by selling stock at its height), and finally into becoming a US Senator or President, if that is what they want to strive for. Elkins wrote: << the map's little zingers are in fact *precisely* the sort of verbal abuse with which James and his friends used to taunt Snape back in their schooldays. >> Well, yes, but ... I have always assumed that Snape gave as good as he got, at least in the verbal arena. Adult Snape in canon demonstrates such skill with words, such a splendidly sharp, brilliantly vicious tongue, that I assumed that he was already a master of words as weapons at age 11. Also, I feel that he didn't bother to wait until people did something to hurt him before he splashed verbal venom on them; thus causing many of his fellow students to fear him and his Slytherin friends to admire him. Also, it seems to me that canon shows adult Snape as a skilled, talented, powerful wizard with fast reflexes, and stresses how many curses he already knew, so I expect he also held his own at slinging curses, I mean at wizarding duels. I fear he was a loser when things came to fisticuffs, primarily because of being outnumbered, but if his Slytherin friends came to his assistance, maybe he was no longer outnumbered... I see Snape's clique as parallelling MWPP+Lily. Each clique consisted of five boys and one very strong-minded girl. Each clique hated the other, bullied the other in the terminology used by some listies. Each had one brother who would turn traitor in adult life... Envisioning the Marauders as having behaved thuggishly in their school days doesn't stop me from loving them... Leon Adato wrote: << Snape was brilliant. If he had become HB, >> Snape couldn't be Head Boy, because James got that glory in the year when they were both eligible. I imagine that part of Snape's pain and resentment is that he was cheated out of his rightful place as top student by an accident of timing, that he *was* brilliant and *would* have been the top student in most years, but he landed in a year with an unusually large number of brilliant students -- for James and Sirius, Remus told us that they were the cleverest students in their year and McGonagall told us that they were exceptionally bright; for Remus, we had a chance to see his intelligence and studiousness (as an adult) in action, for Lily I merely assert that she was *at least* as clever as James and Sirius, but kind of concealed it because of old 1970s ideas of how girls can be attractive to boys. I feel for poor Severus, working his arse off and yet always being beaten for top marks by James (who was a Quidditch star on top of it!) and sometimes Sirius (who never even bothered to study!) and sometimes Lily (whom Severus didn't resent, because she was modest about her successes) ... sort of like a hypothetical 'nother kid in Charlie's year who was a very good Seeker and played his/her *heart* out, but Charlie always grabbed that Snitch and the Quidditch Cup anyway. Just because I feel for poor Severus doesn't mean I think he was an innocent victim. I imagine Severus and Sirius had a case of hate at first sight (maybe even on the Hogwarts Express on their way to first year), but I suppose that the lasting hate that Sirius *still* feels toward Severus is due to a taunt or two (or some, turn-about is fair play, 'practical joke') from Severus that *really* hurt Sirius, painful to this day. As I said, I love the Marauders: JKR's writing casts a Credulity Charm on my mind so that I am taken over by the authorial voice's worldview while reading, and only afterwards do I notice that my feelings as a reader are much different than my feelings would be if I was *living* it. All this concern about Quidditch, for example: in real life, sports bore me silly. I would turn out for my House's matches out of House loyalty, but I wouldn't understand when to cheer except by imitating all the other fans. And I-the-reader like Ron, asserting that 'Ron's a nice kid' when listies claim that he's going to turn evil. But I wouldn't get along with him if I was one of his classmates. I like books and try to do well in class and hate sports; he obsesses about Quidditch and hates school. He made some loudly sexist remarks about ugly girls; I was an ugly girl with Snape-ishly thin skin: I wouldn't have ever forgiven him for saying those kind of thing about me. (I'm still ugly but somewhat thicker-skinned.) Hell, in real life I probably would resent Hermione the same way that I wrote of Severus resenting James! And in real life, the closet to a positive feeling that I ever have toward popular jocks (James and Sirius) and in-group members (Remus and Peter) is lust from afar. But JKR's writing brainwashed me into liking them in the books. Abigail wrote: << I think the main problem plaguing most of the F&G defenders out there is not the fact that they find F&G's antics funny, but that JKR seems to. (snip) Fred and George are never criticized by the narrative (snip) JKR approves of the twins and what they do, and suggesting that they are bullies creates a problem for the reading community. It's not just that we aren't nice people if we accept that the twins are bullies, it's that JKR isn't either. >> Eloise wrote: << We know of JKR's concerns for civil liberties, her work with Amnesty, etc, Therefore JKR would not condone bullying, Therefore she would not wittingly write about bullying behaviour in a positive light. JKR appears to approve the twins' behaviour (except for the TTToffee incident), Therefore the twins cannot be intended to be bullies. >> Cindy wrote: << "which is all the more reason that there is *no way* JKR would write Dumbledore's reaction as sympathetic to Frank if Frank were the sort of auror who abused his authority on his way to achieving popularity." >> Maybe JKR and Dumbledore *would* (maybe *do*) like a Frank Longbottom who was an Auror who committed serious human rights abuses, the same way she likes the Marauders and the Twins who are insensitive gits at best. Which makes me wonder about JKR. How much of the authorial voice's worldview is her own worldview? If she does like insensitive thuggish popular jocks who stand together with their friends to physically fight other school gangs (the Marauders against Snape's Slytherins; Fred and George and Harry and Ron against Draco's Slytherins), how does that get along with all her liberal and anti-torture beliefs? From dicentra at xmission.com Sun Sep 1 04:45:57 2002 From: dicentra at xmission.com (dicentra63) Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 04:45:57 -0000 Subject: Dirty!Harry and Stoned!Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43444 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "ssk7882" wrote: > I wrote: > > > > By intervening to insist upon the recognition of a higher moral > > > code than "he deserves it," Harry is acting as an agent of > > > transformative and redemptive moral change, one which can serve > > > to heal both the wounds of injustice and the wounds of the past. > > Dicentra replied: > > > As true as all this is, it seems so incongruous that Harry was on > > the verge of killing Sirius only an hour or so earlier. > > Ah. But he *didn't,* now, did he? Once he was actually armed and > therefore could do real damage, he balked. Yes, he did. As you said, he stood there trying to convince himself to blast him. And when Lupin bursts in, ending Harry's chance, he's disappointed with himself. "Harry stood there, feeling suddenly empty. He hadn't done it. His nerve had failed him." At this point, Harry's understanding of his actions is simply that he wasn't brave enough or decisive enough. *We* know he didn't do it because he's not a killer. But he doesn't seem to have that insight here. Dicentra: > > So what changed? What persuaded Harry within that short time to > > recognize this higher moral code? > Elkins: Well, I don't know that it's all that short a time, really. I'd say that actually, Harry is dealing with the question of "desserts" throughout the entire novel. So he's really been working on it all year, in a way. By the time he hits the Shack, I'd say that he's already made a start on rejecting the moral code of vengeance. He *does* balk rather than killing Sirius, after all. He attacks Sirius out of fury when he is unarmed, and when Sirius seems to be an active threat. But when he has a wand in his hand, and Sirius is doing nothing but lying there on his back staring up at him? He balks. Dicentra: Which he interprets a sign of weakness. And yet he decides to save Sirius and Remus from becoming killers later on. It occurs to me that he might have understood that if he *had* killed Sirius, unarmed and sprawling on the floor, that would have made him a plain old killer. So when he sees the pathetic Peter on the floor, he sees the same situation and notices the parallel. And yet we don't see these particular wheels turing in Harry's head. Most of the narration of the Shrieking Shack is simply a retelling of the action and the speech. Harry's only thoughts seem to be those of confusion and disbelief. If he does make a connection in the Shack between his not killing Sirius and their not killing Peter, *we don't see it.* It appears that the narrator vacated Harry's head for a bit, at least on this point. We *should* see Harry making a decision to intervene, but instead we only see him jump in front of Peter. And later, we don't see Harry think about what he did, except when he tells Dumbledore he thought he might have done the wrong thing. I can't help think that in an earlier draft, JKR might have shown these things but later took them out. I wonder why. --Dicentra, who already knows about "show vs. tell" From jferer at yahoo.com Sun Sep 1 05:08:03 2002 From: jferer at yahoo.com (jferer) Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 05:08:03 -0000 Subject: Past and future speculations -- and a bug In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43445 Julie:"* James Potter's ancient (?) wizarding family will turn out to have been descended from both the Gryffindors and the Slytherins. I'm fairly convinced he shared not-too-distant ancestry with Tom Riddle (another possible explanation for Harry's being a Parselmouth, aside from Dumbledore's explanation that he may ave acquired some of Voldemort's power when he survived the killing curse)." That could all be true, but what troubles me is that, with the wizard world as small as it is and how ancestry works, everybody is pretty much related anyway. Normally, there'd be heirs of Slytherin and Gryffindor all over the place, and it wouldn't be hard to find people descended from every one of the Hogwarts Four. It would be like going to Prince Edward Island or Cape Verde and trying to find somebody who isn't related to everybody else there. OTOH, we know there's *something* special that made James Potter *and his son* Voldemort's special targets. Jim Ferer From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Sun Sep 1 05:44:45 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 05:44:45 -0000 Subject: From the Shadows A Light Shall Spring WAS Re: Abstemiousness with truth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43446 I think it's time for Tolkien and Lewis. "I have claimed that Escape is one of the main functions of fairy-stories, and since I do not disapprove of them, it is plain that I do not accept the tone of scorn or pity with which "Escape" is now so often used: a tone for which the uses of the word outside literary criticism give no warrant at all." -J.R.R. Tolkien, "On Fairy Stories." If I understand you, darkthirty, your reading of the Harry Potter books is one of escapism, escapism on Harry's part from the Dursleys, escapism on our part from the real world. "Why should a man be scorned if, finding himself in prison, he tries to get out and go home?" - Tolkien, OFS Several people have responded and tried to argue points which show that Harry cannot have dreamed up the whole situation. That does not seem to be your reading of the text. You said that Harry's world is a world in which everything is arranged for him, a world in which nothing can fail, a world that, as a result, lacks reality, a world that on one level can be read as Harry's protest and escape against the cruel and miserable real world. "For my part I cannot convince myself that the roof of Bletchley station is more "real" than the clouds. And as an artefact I find it less inspiring than legendary dome of heaven. The bridge to platform 4 is to me less interesting thn Bifrost guarded by Heimdall with the Gjallarhorn." - Tolkien, OFS We, the readers, in this understanding, are reading and creating this world in protest and escape against our world, against reality. I think it's important to make clear that this "absetimousness from truth" is not a hallmark of Harry Potter only, but of most fiction, especially that which we know as fantasy or fairy tales. In all these stories, even ones that try to be modern and realistic, to my mind, everything is arranged for the characters. To write might be to rebel against reality. "The dangerous fantasy is always superficially realistic. The real victim of wishful reverie does not batten on The Oddyssey, The Tempest, or The Worm Ouroboros: he (or she) prefers stories about millionaires, irresistable beauties, posh hotels, palm beaches, and bedroom scenes - things that really might happen, that ought to happen, that would have happened if the reader had had a fair chance. For, as I say, there are two kinds of longing. The one is an askesis, a spiritual exercise, and the other is a disease." - C.S. Lewis from "Three Ways of Writing for Children." So, if on one level, all literature is an escape, where are we escaping to? To irreality? Or reality? "The notion that motor-cars are more "alive" than, say, centaurs or dragons is curious; that they are more "real" than, say, horses is pathetically absurd. How real, how startlingly alive is a factory chimney compared with an elm-tree: poor obsolete thing, insubstantial dream of an escapist!" - Tolkien from OFS. Perhaps we go to the fairy-tales to escape to reality. Why should we assume that the world that seems so inhospitable, the world of the Dursleys, is the real world? Perhaps, when we think this way, we are seeing the world wrong. In the fairy tales, perhaps, we learn to see the world right. "The consolation of fairy-stories, the joy of the happy ending: or more correctly of the good catastrophe, the sudden joyous "turn" (for there is no true end to any fairy-tale): this joy, which is one of the things fairy-stories can produce supremely well, is not essentially "escapist" nor "fugitive." In its fairy-tale - or otherworld - setting, it is a sudden and miraculous grace: never to be counted on to recur. It does not deny the existence of dyscatastrophe, of sorrow and failure: the possiblity of these is necessary to the joy of deliverance; it denies (int he face of much evidence, if you will) universal final defeat and is far is evangelium, giving a fleeting glimpse of Joy, Joy behind the walls of the world, poignant as grief." - Tolkien from OFS If one wants to believe that Joy does not exist, then there is little I can say. I have felt it and so have most people, I would guess. To board the Hogwarts Express, in my opinion, is to return home from exile. For I find more of the real world there than in Little Whinging, Surrey. I find in this fantasy world love, hatred, honour, envy, cowardice, fate, free will, guilt, courage, innocence and its loss, friendship, pity, sorow, and Joy. And I believe these things to be as real as anything else under the sun. Eileen From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Sun Sep 1 05:48:58 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 05:48:58 -0000 Subject: Why I Dislike The Twins/Toon Talk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43447 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "ssk7882" wrote: > Oh, sorry. I guess I was just hoping for a different response. You > see, I *like* vituperative language. > > But only when it's directed against fictional people. So tell me, > then, is "cad" okay? Absolutely not. Called Fred and George "cads" the other day, and I was personally attacked by my younger brothers, who called me a lot of names including "Percy." :-)On the other hand, they think it's fine to say anything hateful about Hagrid, whom they dislike more than Cindy does, if that's possible. > But of course, that can't all be placed at the Twins' door, by any > means. It's the entire family dynamic that I see as a spiritually > eroding influence on Percy, and the twins are just one manifestation > (if a particularly abrasive one) of that dynamic. You do have to write that Percy post, you know? What is the entire family dynamic? Are you going to be really mean to Molly Weasley and start off the HPFGU apocalypse? Do you think Arthur shares some of the blame for the dynamic? I've never seen anyone finger Arthur for anything, come to think of it, and I'm sure that can't be right. Every other Weasley has legions of detractors, and Arthur walks off scot free. Come to think of it, that's pretty much the canon situation as well. Will you be adding Imperio'ed Arthur to the mix? > Really, I think that much of the problem in this entire discussion > has been one of definitions: clinical vs colloquial, for example. > It's also been muddied by the conflation of "bully" with "evil," not > to mention with "I think they act like bullies" with "I don't > like 'em" -- which was my own fault. I tried the other day to think about bullies that I like. I came up with Edmund Pevensie, who is obviously a bully, and such a delightful character before he is redeemed, after which he's not so interesting. However, one doesn't generally approve of Edmund's behaviour, betraying his siblings to the White Witch and all that. So I racked my brains further and came up with Psmith, the hero of P.G. Wodehouse's amusing novels, especially "Mike and Psmith." Psmith is undoubtably a bully. After being expelled from Eton, he quickly works to dominating his new school. He and his protege, Mike, start off by taking another boy's study for their own, and continue in a course of action that can only be described as bullying. However, he ends off as the hero of the school, loved by the Headmaster and everyone else except his ever-frustrated teacher nemesis and Head of the other House (who always reminds me of Snape), finally winning a Cricket game magnificently for the school. And I can't help but love him. Because he's so funny and cheery. His humour is verbal, and that could go a long way to explain why I like Psmith and not Fred and George. > Similarly, Amanda's posts explaining why, as a parent, she absolutely > would *not* have wanted Lupin to remain as a staff member at any > school attended by a child of hers were real eye-openers for me. I'd > just never really thought about the issue from that perspective > before. I had written it off as "discrimination," and left it at > that. But of course, it isn't really all that simple, is it? Lupin > really *is* a threat, and his forgetfulness when it comes to his > Wolfsbane Potion really *does* suggest that he may indeed have a few > non-compliance issues that make him even less someone a concerned > parent would want around their children. > > So have those discussions changed my reading of the text? Oh, yeah. > They sure have. And Lupin is one of my favorite characters, too, so > of course it was a bit of a wrench to concede that those nasty > parents who would have wanted him to be fired really did have a valid > point. Yes, Amanda's posts were just heart-wrenching. If I want to understand the reaction to your Fred and George post, I just have to think about my emotional reaction to Amanda's posts. "WHAT ARE YOU SAYING ABOUT LUPIN? BUT HE'S LUPIN. WHAT THE H.E.L.L.? (Hey! Everyone Loves Lupin!) > But I *like* it when that happens. After all, if I didn't want to > expose myself to other people's readings of the books, then why on > earth would I be here? Yes, after some reflection, Amanda's posts strengthened not weakened my appreciation for the character of Lupin. After all, I think Lupin comes to the same conclusion as Amanda at the end of PoA. He doesn't leave because of Snape outing him as a werewolf. He leaves because he realizes that he has no right to stay, even though everything that means anything for him is at Hogwarts. Before that revelation, I and many others were always disturbed by Lupin's weakness at the end of PoA in leaving. Now, I appreciate Lupin all the more in the leaving scene. You know, I wonder if some of my hostility towards Sirius Black stems from the fact that he really takes over Lupin's place in Harry's life, while Lupin makes no appearance throughout GoF. It just isn't fair. And if there isn't a substantial ammount of Lupin in OotP, I shall probably go nuts and start a "Sirius Black is Ever So Evil and a Bully As Well" club. > Cindy: > > > I imagine that some people don't welcome having their reading > > experience changed in this way. I can understand that. > > I guess I'm having some difficulty understanding that. Isn't that > what this forum is for? Well, Elkins, could I confess that some of your theories have freaked me out? I've bought into them all, it seems, but some of them really upset my cozy vision of canon. Pointing out that Moody had rogue cop characteristics, for example, actually produced a rather hostile initial reaction. Like Cindy, I adore Moody. But well... I didn't post that reaction. I thought about it for a little, decided you were right, and posted in your defense. And these days I look forward to having my cozy vision of canon upset. However, I also think that something else is at play: fear of controversy. I was suckled on controversy. I can give as hard as I get, and not even consider having hurt feelings. But I learn that most people aren't like that, learn it painfully, when people take offense at my vigorous arguments. "But I didn't employ any Ad Hominems," I try to explain. No use. Lots of people just don't enjoy controversy. Eileen From eloiseherisson at aol.com Sun Sep 1 13:10:12 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 09:10:12 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape, Sirius and the Dementors Message-ID: <88.1d70e0e5.2aa36bb4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43448 I had some more thoughts, following on to my reply to Porphyria yesterday. First of all, I suggested that Snape may not have realised that Sirius had not already had his soul sucked out by the Dementors, that this actually was the logical thing to assume, given that he awoke to an unconscious Sirius and retreating Dementors. Logical or not, I now realise that this theory doesn't work, as I had forgotten that he binds and gags Sirius, which I presume would be unnecessary precautions if the Dementors *had* performed the Kiss. But another suggestion comes to mind (I'm sure this can't be original) which puts Snape in a *Good Light* whilst still leaving open the question of what he really wanted to do regarding Sirius. Snape also wakes up to at least two unconscious students and one with a broken leg who wasn't fully conscious the last time we saw him. Might it not be that his decision to go straight to the castle, rather than to recall the Dementors was that of a responsible adult taking care of the three students in his charge? Sirius wasn't going anywhere and could be dealt with later, but Harry, Ron and Hermione needed to be taken to the castle for medical attention. As a teacher, that had to be his overriding concern. I would suggest that we don't know whether he would have called the Dementors there and then had the trio not been there, or not been in need. Eloise From naama2486 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 1 11:13:16 2002 From: naama2486 at yahoo.com (naama2486) Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 11:13:16 -0000 Subject: Death Eaters and their children (was Nott's kid) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43449 > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., gabrielle jones wrote: > > Richelle writes: (minus info about DE - Naama) > > Children who are or may be children of DE's: > > Draco Malfoy > > Vincent Crabbe > > Gregory Goyle > > ? Nott > > > > Now, interesting thing here is that they're all the same age. > > Does this mean that those four sort of did everything Lucius did? > > Or is this a Voldemort "Go reproduce" order. > > I know that's discussed before, but I'm hypothesizing here.<< Richelle continues: (Minus info about foreign DE kids) > > > > >>Suppose *all* the DE's had babies the same year--being the > > same year Harry > > was born, which is interesting. Does Snape have a child > > somewhere? > > Hmm. > > Can't see that. But anyway, what would it *mean*? > > > > Richelle<< Gabrielle responds: > Snape? A kid? Interesting. Who would the lucky lady be? Would > she be a DE as well? Would she know Snape's a DE? My turn (Naama): The fact that all known DE-related kids were born in tha same year is interesting indeed. And the fact that Harry was born at the same year... could this be one of the reasons for LV to kill Harry? And another thing- you ask who the lucky lady is. Well, I've no idea about that. But lucky? Do you really think so? Is it reasonable for so many women to get pregnant at such a short while by mere chance? Love is not V's way. I think LV, not wanting his reign of terror to die with his DE, planned what you might call "Death Eaters- the next generation". He picks the women suitable for the task and bewitches them to make sure each one of his DE will have an heir, and the heirs will be born at the wanted time. Perhaps even bewitching his DE as well, for the same purpose (wild thought- Snape turning spy because not liking to be thought as easily replaced or toyable like that?) Just a thought... Naama, who is proud to finally take a more active part than prowling the dark corridors of the group after hours, being new around... P.S. Thanks to Cindy. From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Sun Sep 1 14:50:20 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (grey_wolf_c) Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 14:50:20 -0000 Subject: Death Eaters and their children (was Nott's kid) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43450 Naama wrote: > Gabrielle responds: > > > Snape? A kid? Interesting. Who would the lucky lady be? Would > > she be a DE as well? Would she know Snape's a DE? > > My turn (Naama): > > The fact that all known DE-related kids were born in tha same year > is interesting indeed. And the fact that Harry was born at the same > year... could this be one of the reasons for LV to kill Harry? > > And another thing- you ask who the lucky lady is. Well, I've no idea > about that. But lucky? Do you really think so? Is it reasonable for > so many women to get pregnant at such a short while by mere chance? > > Love is not V's way. I think LV, not wanting his reign of terror to > die with his DE, planned what you might call "Death Eaters- the next > generation". He picks the women suitable for the task and bewitches > them to make sure each one of his DE will have an heir, and the > heirs will be born at the wanted time. Perhaps even bewitching his > DE as well, for the same purpose (wild thought- Snape turning spy > because not liking to be thought as easily replaced or toyable like > that?) The trouble with the "next generation idea" normally is that LV's plans do NOT include leaving anything to posterior generations when this current batch of DEs die, since he plans to saty arround to *see* next generation (and all the following ones), since he wants to become immortal. However, you raise a particular point that I had not considered: what if he only looks for his own immortality, i.e. he hasn't offered his DEs to become immortal when he finds the right formula? I always assumed that this would be part of the "wages", that is, that he promises them immortality in exchange for being Voldemort's canon fodder and sycophants. The thing with that suposition is, in fact, that Voldemort wouldn't want *other* immortal people running around, because they could become his enemies at the drop of a hat. After all, his power base is fear, not loyalty. Of course, this raises the question: exactly, what's in there for them? Power? I hope they're not joining forces with the big V just to anhilate the entire muggle population and most of the wizard one. I know people can be irrational when they're elitists/racists/ xenophobic/etc. but there also tends to be an underlying goal hidden beneath it. Pure, untainted cruelty is something that needs a very special kind of (deranged) mind, and I don't think ALL the DEs have that kind of mind. Lucius, for example, looks too cold-blooded by half to let that be his only objective. There are a few details that need ironing out, though. Wizards live a long time, so this new DE batch is not a replacement. Their parents, if they're all are the age of Lucius Malfoy, have still a long life before them, so I don't see why Voldemort would arrange the new generation so soon. There are, however, a couple of reasons he could, though. First, I like the idea that he didn't actually tell the future parents what was going on. He just prepared a spell, and used the DE marks, or one of his reunions, to bewitch the whole lot in one go, instead of going one by one. As a consecuence, the children would be very much concentrated in time (allowing a bit of slack for the natural chance involved in getting a woman pregnant). The second reason I can think of involves the infamous first prophecy, but I'm not really into the prophecy theory, so I'll allow any other listee to take a shot at developing the idea. Basically, The prophecy mentions a boy born in Harry's year doing great things (either for good or bad), and V wants to control him for reasons of his own. The third idea is that Voldemort ordered the new batch just after a particular nasty bloodbath between aurors and DEs, when Voldemort suddenly discovers that he was running out of people to shout at, and he ordered his DE to grow and multiply so he could double the number of troops. This theory I don't really like, since it doesn't wash in several points. One, that bloodbath hasn't, as far as we know, happened, and something of that level would probably have been mentioned somewhere. Also, Voldmort doesn't believe in big armies, according to my favourite theory MAGIC DISWASHER and to clues in the books, since a terrorist group that depends on hiding and secrecy cannot be too big, or it would be impossible to hide. Finally, why would he only order 1 batch? After all, if he wants to have replacements handy (I know I'm sounding cold-blooded about people here, but this IS Voldemort we're speaking about), why didn't he order his DEs to continue reproducing? A child every year would increase his army much faster than just one new DE generation. > Just a thought... > > Naama, > who is proud to finally take a more active part than prowling the > dark corridors of the group after hours, being new around... Welcome to active posting, them, Naama. See you around! Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From crana at ntlworld.com Sun Sep 1 15:03:29 2002 From: crana at ntlworld.com (rosie) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 16:03:29 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Death Eaters and their children (was Nott's kid) References: Message-ID: <000701c251c8$bbc8c000$7bb068d5@xxx> No: HPFGUIDX 43451 Grey Wolf said: "The thing with that suposition is, in fact, that Voldemort wouldn't want *other* immortal people running around, because they could become his enemies at the drop of a hat. After all, his power base is fear, not loyalty. Of course, this raises the question: exactly, what's in there for them? Power? I hope they're not joining forces with the big V just to anhilate the entire muggle population and most of the wizard one. I know people can be irrational when they're elitists/racists/ xenophobic/etc. but there also tends to be an underlying goal hidden beneath it. Pure, untainted cruelty is something that needs a very special kind of (deranged) mind, and I don't think ALL the DEs have that kind of mind. Lucius, for example, looks too cold-blooded by half to let that be his only objective." I imagine it depends from person to person, but just some ideas: a.. the chance to be cruel and kill (e.g. Voldemort promises McNair better victims than the dangerous beasts) as you mentioned a.. money and power (if you have the backing of the big V, I imagine it's going to be easier to terrorise people, steal from them and so on) - specially Lucius? a.. you're (well, in the past and probably in the future of book 5 +) on the side of "the biggest bully in the playground"... being on the Dark Side protects you from the DEs and Voldemort (mainly) a.. Like with the Freemasons, you are part of a "secret club" - feelings of inclusion - and also you are very much "up there" with other DEs. Linked with the money and power one... we know some people from the Ministry were, are, or were considered DEs (McNair, forget the other one's name and don't have my book... Rookwood?) a.. Interest in the Dark Arts just a couple of ideas Rosie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dmwang9 at aol.com Sun Sep 1 14:08:31 2002 From: dmwang9 at aol.com (dmwang9) Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 14:08:31 -0000 Subject: questions re: final exams Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43452 In SS (and perhaps in the other novels as well, but I loaned them to a friend to read and so can't check right now), it is clear that after the end of final exams, the students stay at Hogwarts for a week before they head home for the summer: "Their very last exam was History of Magiuc. One hour of answering questions about batty old wizards who'd invented self-stirring cauldrons and they'd be free, free for a whole wonderful week until their exam resuts came out." [SS16] Two questions: 1. Is one hour long enough for a final exam? Perhaps the British model is different from the American one, but in my experience, finals tend to last a bit longer, from 1.5 to 3 hours at least. 2. What exactly do the students do on campus between the end of finals and their departure from school? I teach at an American boarding school, and once students finish finals at the end of the year, they leave campus right away -- mostly to prevent excessive end-of-year mischief. Once again, perhaps British schools have a different policy. Thanks, Dave From catlady at wicca.net Sun Sep 1 17:24:06 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (catlady_de_los_angeles) Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 17:24:06 -0000 Subject: Death Eater Baby Boom Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43453 Naama wrote: << The fact that all known DE-related kids were born in tha same year is interesting indeed. And the fact that Harry was born at the same year... could this be one of the reasons for LV to kill Harry? (snip) I think LV, not wanting his reign of terror to die with his DEs, planned what you might call "Death Eaters- the next generation". >> Grey Wolf wrote: << The trouble with the "next generation idea" normally is that LV's plans do NOT include leaving anything to posterior generations when this current batch of DEs die, since he plans to saty arround to *see* next generation (and all the following ones), since he wants to become immortal. However, you raise a particular point that I had not considered: what if he only looks for his own immortality, i.e. he hasn't offered his DEs to become immortal when he finds the right formula? I always assumed that this would be part of the "wages", that is, that he promises them immortality in exchange for being Voldemort's canon fodder and sycophants. >> Hi, NAAMA the new! (A concept that surprised me until I remembered that listie Naama Gata is not the only Naama in the world.) I posted my theory on the Death Eater spawn, in my post #42888 from 8/18/02: << My theory is that Voldemort believes in Prophecies and Divination, and he discovered that it was written in the stars (or whatever) that a boy in Britain conceived around Halloween 1979 and born around Lammas 1980 would have exceptional magic powers. He wanted this boy's powers to be a weapon he could use AND he wanted to make sure that this boy's powers would not become a weapon for the Light Side. He figured that the way to do that was for the boy to be born and raised among his loyal followers. So he ordered his Death Eaters to go out and spawn at the appointed time, and they obeyed, but none of their children were the Prophesied Boy: HARRY, of course, was the Prophesied Boy. (I have a Britspeak problem with my theory: I imagine Voldemort telling his circle of Death Eaters what to do, and they all prostrated themselves and pledged obedience, but afterwards, Crabbe and Goyle (whom I imagine to be not too bright) asked Malfoy what had the Dark Lord ordered them to do, and Malfoy answered in language his thugs would understand. In US-speak, he would have said: "He told you to go home and knock up your wives", but "knock up" doesn't mean "impregnate" in UK-speak, and "he told you to put your wives in the family way" doesn't sound vulgar enough.) (snip) I don't think he wanted to 'ensure another generation of greatness': he planned to live forever and wouldn't have wanted to create any rivals. It was only servants he meant to create. >> Hey, GREY WOLF! Presumably Voldemort could (and, according to me, did) promise his DEs immortality as a reward, but never intend to give it to them. As for what other awards various DEs might have intended to get: Lucius Malfoy, who is power-hungry to the point of insanity, thinks he is 'the power behind the throne' and can become all-powerful in the wizarding world by using Voldemort. Various Ministry employees know that Voldemort has great influence at the Ministry (probably without knowing specifically which big shots are Death Eaters), which will get them accelerated raises and promotions. People who own businesses are faced with the choice between having the Dark Side send some business their way and attack their competitors, or having the Dark Side attack them to help their competitors. 'Career criminal' types -- burglars, armed robbers, serial rapists, maybe even barroom brawlers, all the people who are in and out of jail all the time -- would be pleased that Voldemort arranges for them not to be arrested anymore, and for their previous records to be lost by the Ministry. Some people would join the DEs in exchange for Mulciber putting one or two pretty women under Imperius to be their sex slaves. And of course there are the reasons that were already suggested: . intellectual interest in Dark Arts . sincere fear that Muggles are trying to destroy wizarddom . sincere hatred of 'Mudbloods' . welcoming the excuse to beat, kill, rape, and terrorize . "Join us or we'll kill your children" From cindysphynx at comcast.net Sun Sep 1 18:54:24 2002 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (cindysphynx) Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 18:54:24 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Canon College: DEs and Aurors 101 (WAS "Despiadado" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43454 Cindy startles awake, finding herself alone on the grass in front of the Student Union of Canon College. She shakes her head vigorously and soon realizes that she dozed off there after her exhausting final examination on Death Eaters and Aurors. Elkins and Avery are nowhere to be found, but there is a tiny owl bearing a scarlet envelope. Cindy takes the envelope and begins to read. --------------- NOTICE OF VIOLATION OF HONOUR CODE Dear Ms. Captain Cindy, It has come to our attention that you have engaged in piracy on the grounds of Canon College in violation of our Code Of Honour. This infraction has nullified your grade of "A" on your final examination. Please present yourself to the office of Professor Eileen Lucky-Kari at once for re-examination. Said examination will review material from the prior examination on which you blatantly *cheated,* with special emphasis on international historical figures having nothing whatever to do with canon. Failure to defend your canon theories to Professor Lucky-Kari's satisfaction will result in a downward adjustment in your grade and class rank. Please be advised that any attempt to use the Imperius Curse will be punishable by immediate expulsion. Have a nice day! :-) ------------------ Piracy? Honour Code Violation? Oh, this is not good, Cindy thinks. Not good at *all.* Not only is her Masters in Banging in jeopardy, she might lose her summer internship in Florence Theories! Cindy immediately apparates to Professor Lucky-Kari's office, finding the Professor seated at her desk, a vague but satisfied look on her face. Eileen's hair, normally pulled back in a severe bun, is decidedly disheveled and her bright red lipstick is smeared. "You wanted to see me, Professor?" "Yes," Eileen says calmly, gesturing Cindy to a straight-backed chair. "I was talking to George and Faith about your test answers, and they see some problems. Like the fact that you stole an idea from Elkins and *me!*" Cindy gulps audibly, but Eileen pretends not to hear. "Cindy, remember when you said 'There are lots of ways aurors could become popular. Maybe Frank demonstrated bravery and saved someone's life. Maybe he was restrained like Moody. Maybe he was just charismatic or dealt with the press a lot. But if Dumbledore liked Frank, that suggests that Frank wasn't all bad.'" "I didn't steal that argument!" Cindy insists. "Well, OK, yes, I did. But I only stole the last sentence about Dumbledore. The rest is all mine." "Yes, but the part about Frank being brave or restrained or charismatic? That part is a *Yellow Flag Violation!* There's nothing in canon to support it, so I shouldn't have given you credit for any of it," Eileen says. Cindy's face falls. "So you're . . . you're going to *fail* me?" she whispers. Eileen opens her notebook. "No, not if you can address some of my other concerns. Take Crouch Sr. You said his scene with Harry and Krum wasn't a true redemption scene. But what about this enormous canon that George told me about: > ---------------------------- > > Then Ron said in a falsely confident voice, "But he was out of his > mind, like you said, so half of it was probably just raving..." > > "He was sanest when he was trying to talk about Voldemort," said > Harry, ignoring Ron's wince. "He was having real trouble stringing >two words together, but that was when he seemed to know where he >was, and know what he wanted to do. He just kept saying he had to >see Dumbledore." > > ---------------------------- "Oh, that's no problem at all," Cindy says. "See, there's *no way* Crouch is seeking redemption there. I mean, the whole redemption theory rests on the premise that Crouch was trying to undo the wrongs he committed by springing his son from Azkaban, right? Crouch by this point *knew* that Harry was in a lot of danger. He mentions Voldemort and Harry. He knew the whole plan to restore Voldemort. Yet Crouch *insists* on speaking to Dumbledore. "Now, if Crouch were really motivated by a desire to put things right, he would have told *Harry* everything Harry needed to know to be safe. He would have spilled his guts right there in front of Harry and Victor, right? But Crouch doesn't do that, does he? No, he is very explicit. He wants to talk to Dumbledore and *only* Dumbledore. "Why, though? Dumbledore isn't in any danger ?- Harry is. My theory, Professor, is that Crouch's unwillingness just to tell everything to Harry and be done with it is because Crouch hopes to pull a *Snape!* He wants to cut a deal with Dumbledore for protection from Voldemort, just like Snape may have. So Crouch is going to hold on to the only thing he has as leverage -? his knowledge about Voldemort's plan. Oh, that Crouch, Sr. is *cunning,* all right." "Oh, come *on!*" Eileen cries. "The man was out of his mind! You're telling me that he had this carefully thought-out plan all worked out like that?" "Well, the plan didn't require all that much thought, really," Cindy says. "Crouch is hurting. He has only one thing in his mind ?- survival, a safe haven. And the only thing he links to that is Dumbledore. Remember, Crouch was right there in the Pensieve scene when Dumbledore revealed that Snape was a spy. So naturally, Crouch thinks of Dumbledore as someone who can protect him -- the way he protected Snape. Crouch's turning to Dumbledore is instinctive, really. The *survival* instinct -- the very strongest instinct of them all." Eileen leans forward in her chair, her elbows on the marble desktop. "Professor Faith says you have a little problem with 'Occam's Razor.' She says that if Crouch seems heart-broken, full of guilt and remorse, wouldn't it be best to take JKR's portrayal on its surface, unless we have any reason to think there's something fishy about it?" "You're listening to Professor *Faith* now?" Cindy asks incredulously. "Professor, surely you know what she had to do to *get* that job in the first place? Oh, that Faith gets around, she does . . . "Well, never mind that now. Occam's Razor is a rule in science and philosophy stating that entities should not be multiplied needlessly, which is interpreted to mean that the simplest of two or more competing theories is preferable and that an explanation for unknown phenomena should first be attempted in terms of what is already known. The term is named for William of Ockham (1285?-1349). "It's just a fancy way of saying 'Yellow Flag Violation,' really," Cindy says with a smirk. "Anyway, William of Ockham would *love* my theory because it is completely consistent with Crouch's character in canon. Manipulative. Machiavellian. Ruthless. Harry says Crouch was most sane when he was talking about Voldemort. That means Crouch was completely capable of telling Harry what he needed to know to protect himself, but deliberately chose not to. Only Dumbledore would do. So the simpler, more natural choice here is to go with what we know about Crouch's character already ?- that he is cunning, ruthless, selfish. "That means Crouch's main motivation there was to find a way to prevent Voldemort from -- " Cindy licks her lips -- "going all *Tasmanian Devil* on him." Cindy winces, but when she opens her eyes, Eileen looks intrigued. "Not only that, Professor," Cindy continues quickly, "but look what happens if we do a Bang assessment. What's Bangier? Crouch as whining, groveling confessor or Crouch as scheming, desperate extortionist? Give me 'Crouch Cuts A Deal' any day." "OK, maybe you're right." Eileen places a single check mark in her notebook. "What about your Fleeing Wizard theory?" Eileen asks. "George thinks you're basically right that police have the authority to kill in situations where they are not immediately defending themselves or bystanders. And your theory says that the wizarding world didn't allow aurors to shoot fleeing wizards until Crouch authorized the Unforgivables. But that's so contrary to common sense. You'd have to be a bleeding heart of the bloodiest variety to ban all lethal force in the case of the Fleeing Suspect. Who would make that law?" Cindy heaves a sigh of relief. "Oh, *that.* That's *easy!* Let's think about the world in the pre-Crouch era, before and during the early stages of Voldemort's rise to power. Things are peaceful, with Aurors having the occasional arrest to make here and there. Nothing really serious, usually. The laws don't allow Aurors to use AK to shoot fleeing wizards, and this makes perfect sense. Why? Because AK is unblockable and irreversible, remember! So if an Auror uses AK and *misses,* the spell could hit an innocent bystander." "Are you telling me now that Aurors like the Great Alastor Moody Can't Shoot Straight?" Eileen asks, rolling her eyes contemptuously. "No, that's not it at all," Cindy says. "Remember, people in the wizarding world can *apparate!* So an Auror can take careful aim at a fleeing wizard and still miss because the suspect, well ?" Cindy bites her lower lip "-- goes all *Speedy Gonzalez* on them at the last second and apparates." Eileen furrows her brow, but Cindy goes on quickly. "No, Aurors weren't allowed to use AK for fleeing wizards Back In The Day so Aurors had to use other more inventive ways to capture suspects. Like the old rope trick Snape uses on Lupin in the Shack, or the immobilization spell Hermione uses on Neville. There's no chance an Auror will accidentally kill a bystander with those spells. I think there were a lot of Aurors sneaking around under Invisibility Cloaks before Voldemort's ascent to power, hoping to get close enough to the DE to, er ?" Cindy pauses, thinking hard. "To go all *Boris Badenov* on them. "Boris Badenov? That sounds --" Eileen abruptly leans forward in her chair, her eyes wide. "That sounds *Russian* to my ears!" "Why yes, it is!" Cindy says brightly. "Boris Badenov and his sidekick Natasha Fatale were notable intelligence experts from the 1960s. Boris did most of his work in Pottsylvania, but he was a full professor in the Department of Moose and Squirrel at Wossamotta U in Frostbite Falls, Minnesota. He was a master of disguises, and he eventually won the admiration and praise of his mentor, Fearless Leader." "Wow!" Eileen exclaims. "I've never heard of this Badenov. Did you focus on Russian Literature in your youth?" "Actually, I did," Cindy says. "I studied Classical Animation in the 1960s and early 1970s. I was something of a child prodigy, if I do say so myself. "But I digress. There are a lot of DEs escaping capture, and Voldemort starts winning the war. The very existence of the wizarding world as we know it is in peril. Crouch decides that Aurors can now use AK in the Case Of The Fleeing Wizard because the wizarding world is willing to risk the deaths of a few innocent bystanders if that is what it takes to stop a dangerous Fleeing Wizard in his tracks. So that shows that Crouch's authorization of the AK curse by Aurors could simply have been an expansion in their powers in situations like those where the use of deadly force is already authorized in the muggle world." "One last question," Eileen says. "My colleague Eloise says that law enforcement officers in Britain don't carry firearms. So doesn't that *destroy* your whole theory?" "Good heavens no!" Cindy replies cheerfully. "Cops in Britain may not carry firearms, that's true. But it is certainly clear that every witch and wizard carries a firearm at all times -? their *wand.* So Aurors really are more similar to American police than British bobbies in their ability to use deadly force in defense of themselves, in defense of others, and to blast a fleeing suspect." Eileen places scores of check marks in her notebook and looks up, smiling broadly. "All right, Cindy. You've convince me. I'll restore your grade -? you earned it fair and square." She frowns. "George won't be pleased, though. He's all about principle over passion, you know. He didn't think much of your theories." "Oh, goodness. Don't worry about *him.*" Cindy rises from her seat as Eileen hands her a grading sheet with an oversize "A+" emblazoned on the top. She pauses momentarily in the doorway. "After all, what does *George* know about Banging?" ************* Cindy ************** For an explanation of the acronyms and theories in this post, visit Hypothetic Alley at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin20Files/hypoth eticalley.htm and Inish Alley at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?ethod=reportRows &tbl=13 From muj at hem.utfors.se Sun Sep 1 18:57:42 2002 From: muj at hem.utfors.se (MariaJ) Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 20:57:42 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why I Dislike The Twins/Toon Talk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43455 I'm coming to this discussion late, when it's almost over. May I still join? Elkins wrote: > What I suppose that I don't get is why people feel that they can't > continue to find scenes like TTT funny just because they've decided > that the twins are acting like bullies. What happens to make it > suddenly "unfunny" if you come to believe that? Maybe you're not supposed to laugh at someone who is being bullied, because that means you're an insensitive and callous person. I think. For the record, I like the twins, I laugh at a lot of their antics, *and* I think they're a couple of bullies. If I met them in real life I would run the other way. If I were a student at Hogwarts, I'd absolutely *hate* living in the same dorm as them, but then I'm the sort of person who would be miserable at Hogwarts, twins or no twins. I also find a lot of what Draco says rather funny (especially during Hagrid's lessons) and I absolutely loathe him as a character. The same with Snape, but there it differs a lot depending on who he's attacking. Harry can fend for himself, so I find most of Snape's snarky comments to Harry funny. It's when he goes after Neville my blood starts to boil. Neville is me at age ten, so I start to feel personally threatened and that isn't funny. Eileen wrote: > I tried the other day to think about bullies that I like. (snip) > So I racked my > brains further and came up with Psmith, the hero of P.G. Wodehouse's > amusing novels, especially "Mike and Psmith." Psmith is undoubtably a > bully. Oh Eileen, noooo. Erm. No, you're right. Deep sigh. And speaking of boarding school-books. I read quite a lot of these in my early teens (I don't know why. We don't have boarding schools in Sweden, so I suppose I found them exotic.) It didn't really matter whether these books were British or American, about boys' schools or girls' schools, there was a lot of practical joking and so on in them, and there was a Right Way and a Wrong Way to react. The Right Way was to laugh and get even in the same 'humorous' way, the Wrong Way was to be angry or upset or hurt. I'm wondering, considering how much Rowling seems to have borrowed from these books, whether the Practical Jokes Are Good Harmless Fun comes from there. It's twenty years since I last read most of these books though, so I could be remembering wrong. (short interlude) I just dug out my copy of Jean Webster's Just Patty from my bookshelf and in the very first chapter there's Patty, Priscilla and Connie plain harassing three other girls because the headmistress won't let PP&C share a room anymore. Is this bullying? Oh yes. Is it funny? Actually, yes, it is. Do I in any way condone bullying in real life and find it funny there? No. If I did, I'm sure my six-year-old self who was bullied in school would rise up and strangle me. And let's not forget Blackadder. I mean, poor Baldrick. In fact, poor anyone who comes anywhere near Blackadder and his acid tongue. I still think he's incredibly funny though, the slimy bullying git. ;) And now on to something else that this discussion made me think about. Apologies if this has already been discussed to death at some time. I'm fairly new to the list, and I haven't read all the zillion messages. Everything very much IMHO: Much of what happens in the HP-books would be considered Bad and Wrong if it happened in the Real World: Fred and George are bullies. The Dursleys are child-abusers and so, for that matter, are the Longbottoms. Snape and Hagrid should, for different reasons, be fired as teachers. Lupin should be locked up for his own and everyone else's safety. And so on and so on. In fact, Hogwarts should be closed because of all the dangers the students face on a daily basis. However, I think it's fairly obvious when I read the HP-books (obvious for me, I'm not saying everyone else would think it obvious, though this has been discussed on the list before) that the wizarding world operate from a somewhat different rulebook than the muggle world. The wand is, among many other things, a *weapon,* and this is a world were that weapon is put into the hands of inexperienced eleven-year-olds. At Hogwarts a trek through the Forbidden Forest in the middle of the night is a perfectly normal detention and was there anyone who thought that 'hey, it's storming, maybe we should send the first-years with the coaches this year, in case someone, you know, drowns'. No, there weren't. I have a feeling that if a couple of muggle parents quizzed their child about Hogwarts, became appalled and went to McGonagall or Dumbledore to say they didn't want to leave their child in this dangerous environment, Dumbledore, McGonagall, Flitwick, Sprout (the teachers that seem to be fairly reasonable and levelheaded - for obvious reasons I'm leaving Snape out of this) simply wouldn't get what those parents were talking about, or worse, consider them over-sensitive wimps who wouldn't cut it in the wizarding world. All this means that when I'm reading the HP-books I often come away with two disparate readings of the same characters. A more 'external' Real World-reading means the twins are bullies, Great-uncle Algie should be reported to the police for dropping Neville out the window and Snape should be fired. A more 'internal' reading, viewing the books from within, means the twins are amusing, if somewhat loud & boisterous, clowns, Great-uncle Algie was only being kind to his nephew and Snape, well, I have a feeling Dumbledore thinks of Snape as a Learning Experience. Or take the Howler. Viewed from the Real World, sending a child a Howler, knowing full well it will explode in front of the entire school and cause the child intense humiliation, that's almost child abuse, isn't it? It is in my book anyway. However, do I think Molly or Gran will agree with me? No. Do I think Ron or Neville will agree with me? Not really. I'm not even sure Hermione (who is a muggle after all, and didn't grow up in the wizarding world) would agree with me. She'd probably have a few choice words to say about the people who sent her those vile Howlers in GoF, but I don't think she'd say much about the Howlers as such. If Neville went to McGonagall and told her about the canary incident, what would her reaction be? Would she be angry, tell the twins off for being mean to a much younger kid and give them detention, or would she tell Neville to lighten up, it was only a joke (she'd phrase it differently though). Or if Neville had gone to McGonagall in PS/SS after the Leg-Locker Curse incident, would Draco have been punished for being a bully and hurting Neville's feelings or because he was casting spells when he shouldn't? And the hexing of Draco and c:o on the train. Once Molly stopped yelling and Arthur stopped fuming about Malfoys and someone was able to explain exactly what Draco said, would they still be angry? I imagine that Dumbledore would tsk-tsk, but be secretly amused, and that a lot of people would think Draco and c:o only got what they deserved. I seriously doubt if anyone in the wizarding world would think of what happened as bullying. Not even Draco or Lucius - this would just be the latest, and most serious, skirmish in the on-going "war" between Draco and Harry. The point is (there is a point?) I'm not entirely sure the wizarding world would even know what a bully is, that they would actually be able to recognise bullying behaviour for what it really is. I realised this when I thought that maybe what the twins needed was for someone to tell them exactly how hurtful their behaviour can be (I don't think they know or that there is any malicious intent in what they do) and I couldn't really think of who this 'someone' should be. Molly or Percy maybe, as they are the people in the books who have been shown to find the twins' practical jokes annoying. But finding something annoying is one thing, finding it hurtful quite another matter. I'm not saying that everyone in the wizarding world is completely ignorant of what a bully is. I'm sure Neville and Percy have felt/feel bullied. I'm just not so sure what the general attitude would be. At the end of the first chapter in Just Patty when Patty and her two friends have managed to harass the other students to the point where they're begging the headmistress to let them room together again, the headmistress says (and my blood runs cold): "In my experience of school life, it is a girl's own fault when she is persecuted. [...] Keren is a hopeless little prig--" Poor Percy, why do I feel that that is the argument a lot of people (including his own family) use to explain their, eh, "teasing"? Just Patty was written in 1911, and the views expressed in it are obviously out-of-date. But the wizarding world of the HP-books *is* an old-fashioned world in so many ways, why not this one too? Because, for every time I read the HP-books I like the wizarding world less and less. There's a hard, even cruel, edge to it that makes me very uncomfortable and it's got nothing to do with Voldemort or Death Eaters. It's the general condescending attitude toward muggles (I recently started re-reading PS/SS and cringed when in Ch 1 McGonagall says about muggles: "They're not completely stupid." Minerva, how could you?), the way characters that are perceived as weak, like Quirrell or Moaning Myrtle, are considered jokes (and thus legitimate targets for any kind of snide or rude remarks) as well as the more obvious things like their Justice System, the fact that there are House Elfs or the prejudice against people like Lupin, Hagrid etc, people who aren't quite, quite like Us. That Draco and Snape, ten (if not more) times worse than the twins, can get away with their bullying is just another symptom (to me) of the fact that the wizarding world is seriously messed up. It'll be interesting in ten years time (or more) when we get to Book 7, to see if Rowling has written the wizarding world like this intentionally or if I'm just reading too much into it. I don't have any answers. And I'm not phrasing this very well (English isn't my first language). It doesn't help that this isn't really a structured argument, just a string of loosely intertwined questions. Ah, never mind. MariaJ, who is going to press Send this time. Yes, I am. Yes, I am. So there. :) From olivia at rocketbandit.com Sun Sep 1 15:43:53 2002 From: olivia at rocketbandit.com (Olivia) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 11:43:53 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] questions re: final exams In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c251ce$601cacc0$9ca2e3d8@agstme.adelphia.net> No: HPFGUIDX 43456 Dave asked: 1. Is one hour long enough for a final exam? Perhaps the British model is different from the American one, but in my experience, finals tend to last a bit longer, from 1.5 to 3 hours at least. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - First of all, these obviously aren't typical British exams. They're wizard ones. And exams, unless there's some sort of school rule predicating a minimum length, are pretty much dependent on the professor. I've had exams as short as one essay question that can be finished in twenty minutes to three and a half hour plus exams to complete projects that can take weeks to finish. There's really no country standard here in America, and I assume it's pretty much the same in Britain. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - And then Dave asked: 2. What exactly do the students do on campus between the end of finals and their departure from school? I teach at an American boarding school, and once students finish finals at the end of the year, they leave campus right away -- mostly to prevent excessive end-of-year mischief. Once again, perhaps British schools have a different policy. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - I can't tell whether you're asking about British schools or Hogwarts specifically. Because, again, they're not the same by any stretch of the imagination. At Hogwarts, they have things like the end-of-term banquet and I wouldn't be surprised if there were other various events the students take place in that just aren't described in the book, as it's been pointed out before, we hardly get a day-by-day look into Harry's life, just an overview. The college I go to stays open for two weeks after exams are finished and students are allowed to move out pretty much at their leisure. For the most part, it takes away the stress of having to pack and tie up loose ends while trying to study for final exams. All the packing can be done afterwards, instead of at the same time. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Some interesting questions though. I'd like to hear what others have to say. But then again, I'd like to hear a more detailed view of the daily grind at Hogwarts. Olivia. From mi_shell16 at hotmail.com Sun Sep 1 18:38:55 2002 From: mi_shell16 at hotmail.com (theresnothingtoit) Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 18:38:55 -0000 Subject: Whatever will become of the Marauder's Map? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43457 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "doffy99" wrote: > I've had one opinion that the map was a minor plotline and that it > would never come back. I don't agree with this. I think the Marauders > Map will return and Harry will pass it on to a new student before the > end of Book 7. I agree with this. And also remember what it says at the top of the map: Messers Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs Purveyores of *Aids* to Magical Mischief-Makers are proud to present THE MARAUDERS MAP Any bets that there are more aids to magical mischief making out there in Filch's cupboard. I especialy look forward to the time when Fred and George are introduced to the two remaining Marauders - hows this for a scene: >Remus's pad, the Weaslys are round on a visit - seeing as Molly knows Sirius is inocent "What do you mean you lost the marauders map?" Fred crys at Harry. "Relax boys", says Sirius, "I'll get Remus to draw you a new one." "Proffesor Lupin?" asks George. "Sure he was the one who drew the first one." "But Lupin can't be a Marauder," says Fred. "He's mature..." "He's responsible..." "He's adult..." "He's Moony" says Sirius. "WOW!" chime the twins. > Remember, Dumbledore, who now, presumably, has the map, is the same > person who gave James' invisibility cloak to Harry. Dumbledore knew > how much trouble James and friends caused with that cloak. Why would > he give it to Harry? Now, why wouldn't he return the Marauder's > Map? :) > Any bets Hedwig turns up during the summer with a certain birthday gift for Harry? Theresnothingtoit xxx From night at iland.net Sun Sep 1 19:08:29 2002 From: night at iland.net (night at iland.net) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 14:08:29 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] re: House colors / The Thread about Bullying, with lots of MWPP - SS References: Message-ID: <003801c251ea$f64f8980$1dc84ad8@muse> No: HPFGUIDX 43458 Catlady writes: >Which makes me wonder about JKR. How much of the authorial voice's worldview is her own worldview? If she does like insensitive thuggish popular jocks who stand together with their friends to physically fight other school gangs (the Marauders against Snape's Slytherins; Fred and George and Harry and Ron against Draco's Slytherins), how does that get along with all her liberal and anti-torture beliefs?> Ooch. Perhaps a different perspective will help. The word 'liberal' also translates as 'generous'. Rowling is (as ever) honest about the forces at work in the world. Differences, polarities, create the energy gradients necessary to move and thus change things, and that's the business of both life and stories (as reflected in chemistry and its parent, alchemy). She also shows us, as Harry is learning, to look closely, to see dark and light, positive and negative. "What IS." Not just what we want it to be. In the world we are handing our kids, they all need to be Harry. All, "tried in the fire." "To look with the eyes and see with the heart is the secret of the Philosopher's Stone." ~Petrus Bonus Thus, I find Rowling both consistant and powerful. Like many-I've sometimes been sick at heart fearing that she would have to kill Harry in following out her line of thought/tradition. But I'm relieved in also thinking the conjugate of the pair has already been played out in Lily. I've also suspected that Dumbledore might be Nick Flamel. The act of creating the philosopher's stone stirs up forces, light and dark, more than usual. Always part of the creative process, destruction. :) And it also falls to him to see he leaves things balanced, or at least buffer the heightened energy potential. Also Quidditch: again, it's the world boiled down to the chemistry of forces. All the action elsewhere is just so the Seeker can seek. The dull and the stupid have always owned the field; that's what they want-security... The Seeker doesn't. He wants to remain open to every new breeze that blows. He's about courage and love. Virtutes divinae in res diffusae. ~Agrippa von Nettesheim "When The intellect serves the ego alone, it is the very devil!" ~C.G. Jung dmc From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 1 19:47:05 2002 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 12:47:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why I Dislike The Twins/Toon Talk . . .harsh WW In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020901194705.73652.qmail@web20008.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43459 --- MariaJ wrote: > Because, for every time I read the HP-books I like > the wizarding world less > and less. There's a hard, even cruel, edge to it > that makes me very > uncomfortable and it's got nothing to do with > Voldemort or Death Eaters. > It's the general condescending attitude toward > muggles (I recently started > re-reading PS/SS and cringed when in Ch 1 McGonagall > says about muggles: > "They're not completely stupid." Minerva, how could > you?), the way > characters that are perceived as weak, like Quirrell > or Moaning Myrtle, are > considered jokes (and thus legitimate targets for > any kind of snide or rude > remarks) as well as the more obvious things like > their Justice System, the > fact that there are House Elfs or the prejudice > against people like Lupin, > Hagrid etc, people who aren't quite, quite like Us. > That Draco and Snape, > ten (if not more) times worse than the twins, can > get away with their > bullying is just another symptom (to me) of the fact > that the wizarding > world is seriously messed up. > > It'll be interesting in ten years time (or more) > when we get to Book 7, to > see if Rowling has written the wizarding world like > this intentionally or if > I'm just reading too much into it. I know what you mean. As much as I like Harry Potter, I do get wound up about it at times. The way Muggles are treated drives me crazy. They're just dismissed out of hand most of the time, if not insulted. And even Arthur, who adores Muggle things, ends his affection comments with "bless them" like they're children. Muggles never receive any respect, even by the non-persecutors. Likewise, I agree with you about the victims. It's like anyone who is a victim brought it upon themselves, especially if they are weak or nervous or meek. It looks to me like all the magical persection and ineqalilty is going to come to a head. The behavior and attitudes and reasons behind the persecution of giants and house elves will definitely play a part. But what I *really* want, more than anything else, is for some Muggles to be involved in bringign down Voldemort. I mean, if DEs killed that many Muggles, then Muggles need to be involved in bringing him to justice. I want it to be understood by the WW at large that Muggles can contribute, can be useful, can be admirable, can come through when Wizards might not be able to. And I don't think it's going to happen. I think Muggles will be treated as the "children" and kept safely ignorant of all that is happening to them. Rebeccca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com From rvotaw at i-55.com Sun Sep 1 20:47:06 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 15:47:06 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: predictions/ Molly babysat? References: <152.1356671d.2aa272ab@aol.com> Message-ID: <02bd01c251f8$bceec8a0$029ccdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 43460 Christy writes: > I for one hope that JKR sticks to her guns and doesn't let fame and fortune > influence her writing. I think a lot of people out there would feel cheated > if she suddenly sold out and started writing this series solely to entertain > the fans. She did invent the series to please herself, and along the way she Actually, in my opinion if JKR has already written Harry dead at the end and is rewriting to keep him alive, it's not entirely for the fans. The one thing I can think of that would make a writer like JKR who writes for herself change her mind is her own daughter. Her daughter's statement after reading Cedric's death in GoF? "It's okay, it wasn't Harry. As long as it's not Harry, it's okay." Which means if it IS Harry who dies that it's NOT okay. And I for one could not write the one thing my only child doesn't want to happen. Emma_look_alike writes: > I DO, however, think Hagrid will die. Consider the facts: > > A) He is relativley old, (muggle years), because he was at Hogwarts > while Voldemort was, and Voldemort is no spring daisy. Well, that makes Hagrid 65 or 66 in Book 5, a spring chicken compared to Dumbledore's 150. Although I'm a little bit suspicious about Dumbledore being 150. Are we so sure that *he* didn't have a little elixir of life stored up too? Hmm? > B) He [Robbie Coltrane] only signed up for four movies. Perhaps it is because he looks > for giants in the other three, but I doubt it. Five movies actually, with an option on the final two. Although I think the option is there only to keep from completely giving it away. But I do also think Hagrid will die after recruiting the giants to fight Voldemort. It will break Harry's heart and he will finally have a nice long cry in Mrs. Weasley's arms. Now, if we're going with movie stuff to determine predictions, Dumbledore *can't* die until the last book as Richard Harris is signed on for all 7 movies. On the topic of who kept Harry in those missing 24 hours, Jennifer writes: > After all Dumbeldore sends Hagrid to retrieve Harry so he has some > faith the Hargrid can care for a child. Not really. Only faith that Hagrid can safely pull Harry from the rubble of the house without anything falling, as he is a half giant after all. And faith that Hagrid will get Harry safely to someone who *can* care for a child. It's not as simple to care for a bereaved (i.e. totally freaked out) 15 month old as just changing diapers and feeding. > This will explain the special connection that Harry and Hagrid have > and why Dumbledore sent Hagrid to Harry on his 11th birthday. Actually, I think the fact that Hagrid was the one who personally went and rescued Harry was why Dumbledore sent him. And he's a good errand boy. And the Dursleys couldn't push him around, magic or not. And the special connection comes from Hagrid being the first person in the world who was actually nice to Harry--that he can remember. Richelle From kaityf at jorsm.com Sun Sep 1 20:32:53 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 15:32:53 -0500 Subject: Bullies Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020901150826.01ef8ca0@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> No: HPFGUIDX 43461 I've been following the threads on bullying with some interest. It seems like people aren't disagreeing so much on who is a bully and who isn't, but more on just what a bully is. So, being the linguist that I am, I checked out dictionaries and a thesaurus to see what was there about "bully." Here are the synonyms for "bully" (the verb): intimidate, terrorize, persecute, torment, frighten, oppress, browbeat, harass. It's pretty clear, I think, that bullying entails negative intent and that it's rather ongoing, not a one-time deal. So, while Fred and George may engage in bully-LIKE behavior, as at least one poster suggested, I can't see them as bullies. G and F certainly frightened the Dursley's and picked on Dudley, but they did it once and their intent was not to intimidate or frighten them. Their intent was to play a joke and pay Dudley back for his mistreatment of Harry. I can't think of any behavior of F and G that would fit the definition of bully. They never try to intimidate anyone, nor do they try to frighten or terrorize or torment. Those two are pranksters, who sometimes don't know where to draw the line. That may make them irresponsible, but it doesn't make them bullies. Their behavior is very different, IMO, from that of Snape and Malfoy, both of whom clearly are trying to terrorize and intimidate. Snape is so successful in his intimidation of poor Neville that Neville can barely function in his classroom. Bullying, it seems to me, includes a mean-spirited intent, and I just don't see that with Fred and George. It's very obvious in Malfoy and Snape. F and G would never say things to people like Malfoy says to Hermione (about her teeth, for example) or Snape says to Neville. I think F and G make a nice contrast to Snape and Malfoy. Malfoy may make jokes, but he does it to hurt people, to make people feel bad about themselves. Snape makes jokes... well, he doesn't really make jokes, does he? He just picks on people and intimidates them. F and G make jokes that may end up making someone feel bad, but that is never their intent. And they don't pick on any one person. Anyone is fair game for a joke. Snape and Malfoy both have their favorites to pick on, and as with all bullies, their victims are people they perceive as being helpless and unable to defend themselves well. I don't see Snape trying to bully McGonagall. Sure, she's not a student, but that's part of the point. Bullies pick on inferiors, not superiors or equals. Same with Malfoy. I don't see him picking on upper classmen like Cedric or Cho. Nor does he pick on McGonagall, whom he isn't especially fond of. The only teacher he picks on is Hagrid, and that's simply because he sees Hagrid as weak, stupid, and unable to defend himself. Typical bully behavior. I wouldn't be surprised if JKR purposely gave F and G those behavioral characteristics to contrast with Malfoy and Snape. Sure, some behaviors may be similar and you may not want to cross the paths of any of them, but they really aren't alike, are they? We may disapprove of F and G's attics, but does anyone really think they are wicked? The same way Malfoy is wicked? As I said, I think the characters make a good contrast, making us think about what is really mean and what isn't. What is really cruel and what isn't. It also makes us think about how the intentions of a person affects what we think of them and the kind of person they are. Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From eloiseherisson at aol.com Sun Sep 1 21:19:50 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 17:19:50 EDT Subject: Wizarding culture/ attitude to arms (was:Re: Why I Dislike The Twins/Canon colle Message-ID: <46.2cf736ae.2aa3de76@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43462 In a message dated 01/09/2002 19:56:32 GMT Standard Time, muj at hem.utfors.se writes: > Much of what happens in the HP-books would be considered Bad and Wrong if it > happened in the Real World: Fred and George are bullies. The Dursleys are > child-abusers and so, for that matter, are the Longbottoms. Snape and > Hagrid > should, for different reasons, be fired as teachers. Lupin should be locked > up for his own and everyone else's safety. And so on and so on. In fact, > Hogwarts should be closed because of all the dangers the students face on a > daily basis. > > However, I think it's fairly obvious when I read the HP-books (obvious for > me, I'm not saying everyone else would think it obvious, though this has > been discussed on the list before) that the wizarding world operate from a > somewhat different rulebook than the muggle world. > > > The point is (there is a point?) I'm not entirely sure the wizarding world > would even know what a bully is, that they would actually be able to > recognise bullying behaviour for what it really is. > > > Because, for every time I read the HP-books I like the wizarding world less > and less. There's a hard, even cruel, edge to it that makes me very > uncomfortable and it's got nothing to do with Voldemort or Death Eaters. > It's the general condescending attitude toward muggles (I recently started > re-reading PS/SS and cringed when in Ch 1 McGonagall says about muggles: > "They're not completely stupid." Minerva, how could you?), the way > characters that are perceived as weak, like Quirrell or Moaning Myrtle, are > considered jokes (and thus legitimate targets for any kind of snide or rude > remarks) as well as the more obvious things like their Justice System, the > fact that there are House Elfs or the prejudice against people like Lupin, > Hagrid etc, people who aren't quite, quite like Us. That Draco and Snape, > ten (if not more) times worse than the twins, can get away with their > bullying is just another symptom (to me) of the fact that the wizarding > world is seriously messed up. I thnk you're absolutely correct and the wizarding cultural dimension is something that I think got glossed over in this discussion. The fact that wizards seem to have a Tough, warrior culture is a theme that often comes up in discussion here. What the twins get up to IMO is as nothing compared to the way Snape behaves towards students, the punishments until recently meted out in the school, the sending of students into the Forbidden Forest with an expectation on Filch's part at least that they won't all get out unharmed (I know this may just be his way of frightening tham, but I think he does at least partly believe it and given the fact that Hagrid sends Neville off with Draco and Fang, it's a wonder that no-one *was* hurt), the way even McGonagall humiliates Neville, Dumbledore's collusion in the demonisation of House Slytherin. All these are to my way of thinking ways in which adults in the books misuse the power they have to the detriment of the children in their charge. At least, that is how we would interpret it in the RW. As you say, the Potterverse seems to operate differently. I think you are correct to question whether bullying is a meaningful concept in the WW, at least as it manifests itself up to and including Book 4. >Because, for every time I read the HP-books I like the wizarding world less >and less. There's a hard, even cruel, edge to it that makes me very >uncomfortable and it's got nothing to do with Voldemort or Death Eaters. >It's the general condescending attitude toward muggles (I recently started >re-reading PS/SS and cringed when in Ch 1 McGonagall says about muggles: >"They're not completely stupid." Minerva, how could you?), the way >characters that are perceived as weak, like Quirrell or Moaning Myrtle, are >considered jokes (and thus legitimate targets for any kind of snide or rude >remarks) as well as the more obvious things like their Justice System, the >fact that there are House Elfs or the prejudice against people like Lupin, >Hagrid etc, people who aren't quite, quite like Us. That Draco and Snape, >ten (if not more) times worse than the twins, can get away with their >bullying is just another symptom (to me) of the fact that the wizarding >world is seriously messed up. >It'll be interesting in ten years time (or more) when we get to Book 7, to >see if Rowling has written the wizarding world like this intentionally or if >I'm just reading too much into it. I don't have any answers. And I'm not phrasing this very well (English isn't> > my first language). It doesn't help that this isn't really a structured > argument, just a string of loosely intertwined questions. Ah, never mind. You are far too modest. You express yourself extremely well. I think it *is* intentional and I get the feeling that there are aspects of the Tough, macho wizard mentality that JKR doesn't like. It's too linked up with that proper wizarding pride thing which is criticised at the end of GoF. It is also linked to other themes that have been brought up on the list, like Real Wizards don't Apologise (and look at the mess that Sirius and Snape have got themselves into at least partially because of that) and Real Wizards don't Cry. The subject of Harry's tears has been brought up several times since I've been around, with discussions on whether he did or didn't and why not and of whether the tears themselves might have significance. I'm pretty sure that part of Harry's coming to full maturity as a wizard and as a man will involve his acceptance of the fact that he *can* cry, that being fully human and admitting his vulnerability does not make him any less strong or any less of a wizard. I hope we're going to see the WW beginning to realise the same thing. ************************************ On a slightly related topic (at least it's related in that it deals with culture), Cindy referred to my comments regarding the Police/Aurors and the use of weapons: Cindy (in TBAY mode): > One last question," Eileen says. "My colleague Eloise says that > law enforcement officers in Britain don't carry firearms. So > doesn't that *destroy* your whole theory?" > > "Good heavens no!" Cindy replies cheerfully. "Cops in Britain may > not carry firearms, that's true. But it is certainly clear that > every witch and wizard carries a firearm at all times - their > *wand.* So Aurors really are more similar to American police than > British bobbies in their ability to use deadly force in defense of > themselves, in defense of others, and to blast a fleeing suspect." To be fair, Cindy, I wasn't trying to destroy your theory, just pointing out that the impact of what Sirius said might be even greater on a British reader, than on an American one. I was thinking about this today. Our difference in attitutde to the bearing of arms is, I think, quite profound. Am I right in thinking that the bearing of arms for self-defence is a constitutional right in the US? You see, here I'm pretty sure I'm right in saying that it isn't. In fact I don't think you could get a gun licence on those grounds (I tried to do a search to find out exactly what British laws do say on the subject, but couldn't find anything). Here, guns are legitimately held by those who need them for their work, such as gamekeepers and farmers, by sportsmen and, I suppose, by collectors. They are supposed to be locked away when not in use. The idea of carrying a gun purely for self defence is totally alien. In fact, I suspect it's a criminal offence: carrying an offensive weapon *is* an offence, though what constitutes one varies, I think, according to circumstance. I mean, if I bought a new kitchen knife and was carrying it home, it'd be OK, but if the police picked up a someone behaving suspiciously or aggressively and found he was carrying the same knife, then it could be classified as a weapon. Similarly the right to defend oneself, one's home and one's property is also open to interpretation. A man is at present on trial for murder here, having stabbed to death a night-time intruder whom he claimed had made murderous threats towards him and was attacking him with what he thought was a machete. I guess it will hinge on his lawyers being able to prove, or otherwise, whether he really did feel his life was immediately in danger and whether the force he used was proportional to the threat he perceived. But, as you, I and MariaJ (is that right?) have all pointed out, wizards legitimately go 'armed' from the age of 11, which is different from both our cultures. They are also allowed to use their arms aggressively up to a point, with apparently no legal comeback and so I think there isn't really a parallel with either the American or British view on arms. Which begs the question, doesn't it, of at what stage a wand becomes an offensive weapon. At what point is a curse a curse too far? Eloise > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lee.farley at ntlworld.com Sun Sep 1 21:22:23 2002 From: lee.farley at ntlworld.com (LD) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 22:22:23 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] questions re: final exams In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c251fd$aa2125b0$2de96bd5@quack> No: HPFGUIDX 43463 Dave wrote: >1. Is one hour long enough for a final exam? Perhaps the British model is >different from the American one, but in my experience, finals tend to last a >bit longer, from 1.5 to 3 hours at least. Over here in merry old England, going by my own experiences of secondary school (age 11-16) the exams I sat in their first and second years weren't official exams. They were just internal tests drawn up by the teachers to make sure that the students were learning alright. The SATs and GCSEs were the official exams, and they were usually around 2 hours long. I'd guess that the same could be said for Hogwarts, and by the time they get to sit their OWLs and NEWTS they'll be enduring 2 hour exams a plenty. -LD From skelkins at attbi.com Sun Sep 1 21:27:21 2002 From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882) Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 21:27:21 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Canon College: DEs and Aurors 101 (WAS "Despiadado" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43464 Professor Eileen Lucky-Kari smiled mysteriously over her wine glass at George, who amazingly enough, was smiling right back at her. He had been remarkably attentive all through dinner -- that is, if you didn't count the part during the soup course, when he had left her alone at the table for just *ages* to loiter by the restrooms and chat up the women seated near the kitchen. Or that unfortunate period of time when his attention had seemed utterly distracted by the brunette in the corner. Or that bit of egregious flirtation with the busboy. Still, the Professor figured that all of those things had been pretty funny, really. So they probably shouldn't count against him. Right now, though, George was looking right *at* her. And doing something with his foot under the table that probably ought to have been exciting...although actually, it sort of tickled and was in fact beginning to get truly annoying. Still, the Professor thought that it was probably *meant* to be exciting. So she figured she should probably stop over-analyzing this entire experience and just try to enjoy it. "George..." she began, then froze at the all too familiar sound of a rather hectoring voice. She glanced across the crowded restaurant with a sinking feeling in the pit of her stomach. Indeed, there she was, Professor Lucky-Kari's most temperamental student, Elkins, currently engaged in what appeared to be a heated debate with the matre d'. The Professor put her wine glass down on the table and sighed wearily. "Elkins found us," she said. George blanched. He had always been a little bit afraid of Elkins. Elkins, you see, was utterly immune to charisma. Also, she didn't like red-heads. "Can't we--" he began, but at that very moment Elkins came bustling up to the table. She had a sheet of parchment in one hand, and a decided expression of indignation on her face. "Now why did I expect to see you here, Elkins?" Professor Lucky-Kari sighed. "Well, Professor," said Elkins, somewhat out of breath. "Your secretary said that you weren't taking calls, and no one was answering your fireplace, and..." "And so you thought that you'd track me down at a restaurant. Naturally. You know George, of course." Elkins narrowed her eyes slightly "We've met," she said coldly. "Elkins," said George, with equal warmth. "This is about your marks," sighed the Professor. "Isn't it." "Professor, I really *must* protest! A *C!* I mean, it's--" "Average. A C means *average,* Elkins. You don't have a problem with being *average,* do you?" "Well, I..." "You aren't some sort of *elitist,* Elkins. Are you?" "Well, I...I..." Elkins seemed briefly at a loss for words. The Professor resolved to enjoy this state of affairs while it lasted, which was not, sadly, for very long at all. "I *think,*" Elkins stated huffily. "That it must *surely* be clear to *anyone* who can take an unbiased *view* of things that a terrible miscarriage of *justice* has been--" "Do you think I could have the short version, Elkins? You may have noticed that I'm eating dinner." "The short version?" Elkins blinked. "Um...of course, Professor. Of course. Well. First off, I don't know if I really think that Cindy should have received just as much credit as *I* did for her response to the question about precisely what Crouch authorized his Aurors to do. I mean, I did a *close reading.* *I* cited canon. *I* carefully parsed Sirius' canonical statement about the changes instituted under Crouch and evaluated its meaning. And I think that my conclusion -- that what Crouch in fact authorized his aurors to do was to kill *rather* than to capture, in other words, to kill people who could *instead* have been apprehended -- was perfectly sound. In fact, you said so yourself, Professor." "Yes. And you received full credit for it. Your point?" "Well, but you also gave full credit to *Cindy,* now, didn't you? And what *Cindy* said...well, it just didn't make sense, Professor! She said that it was perfectly acceptable for Aurors to be going around shooting suspects in the *back!*" "She did have all of those law books, Elkins." "Oh, books! Books, schmooks! There are more important things than *books.* Things like...um..." Elkins thought for a long moment, then shook her head. "Oh," she said. "Oh, well. Actually, I can't think of anything more important than books right now. Damn!" "Did you have a point, Elkins?" "Yes! The point here is that Cindy said: > Now, it is entirely possible that, before Crouch authorized the use > of the Unforgiveables, the wizarding rules didn't allow aurors to > shoot suspects in the back at all. Aurors *had* to try to hit them > with some spell and capture them if they were trying to flee. Which is precisely what I said! But then she went on to say that this was a *good* thing. She said: > After all, we don't know that there would be no accountability if > an Auror didn't follow established procedure and killed on sight or > something. As Elkins said, the wizarding world does have a justice > system, and there's no reason to think Aurors had immunity for > criminal action if they abused their authority according to > whatever procedural requirements were established. "But we *do* know that! Or at least we can infer it. Because Sirius said--" "Do we always believe everything that Sirius says, Elkins?" Professor Lucky-Kari interrupted gently. "Well...well, no. But...but, oh look! Cindy was arguing from real world law, to prove that it is possible that Crouch was merely expanding the laws of the WW to conform with what is well within the bounds of what we Muggles would consider perfectly reasonable and commonplace: namely, to permit the police to shoot suspects who might prove a danger if they were permitted to escape. Right?" "Yes?" "But why *should* we consider this reasonable? *Or* commonplace?" "Well," said George. "Cindy *is* basically right that police have the authority to kill in situations where they are not immediately defending themselves or bystanders." "You're a Snapetheory, George," snapped Elkins. "*You* stay out of this." "But George has a point," said the Professor. "Obviously if the law does not allow such an action, then it really ought to. To do otherwise would be just so contrary to common sense!" "*Whose* common sense?" demanded Elkins. "Don't you think that's a very *American* view, Professor? Uh," she added quickly. "A very *North* American view, I mean. *North* American. After all, Cindy was arguing from US law. But JKR's Wizarding World isn't an analogue of the US at all, is it? It's an analogue of the UK. And in the UK, > the police are *not* normally armed. Only certain officers are > allowed to bear arms and the circumstances under which they are > allowed to bear, and even more to use arms are strictly controlled. > *Any* police killing is news-worthy and ends up in an inquiry. I > don't think we really have a concept (certainly not a publically > perceived concept) of the police being *allowed* to kill under > certain circumstances: any police killing will have to be justified > according to its individual merits. "So you see, Crouch's measures really *do* constitute unusual war- time--" "Elkins!" Professor Lucky-Kari said sharply. "Whose work was that?" Elkins opened her eyes very wide. "What?" she asked innocently. "I saw *angle brackets,* Elkins. That wasn't your own work. Whose was it?" "It's not..." Elkins sighed. "Oh, all right. Fine. It was Eloise's. But the *point*--" "Really, Elkins! Even if the angle brackets hadn't given the show away, that 'we' certainly would have. We all *know* that you're a..." The Professor paused meaningfully. "A *North* American." "I didn't mean to *plagiarize," muttered Elkins. "I just--" "Plagiarism isn't the issue here, Elkins. Misattribution is." The Professor reached down to draw a slim metal ruler out of her purse. "You *know* how we feel about misattribution here on the list." Elkins sighed. She held out her palm and looked away. "I'm still skeptical about the idea that the right to kill fleeing suspects would have been a war-time measure only," said Professor Lucky-Kari, taking Elkins' hand firmly in her own. "After all," she said, "the WW is a lot Tougher than the muggle world." She laid the ruler lightly across Elkins' palm, eyes fixed on her face. "It seems almost impossible to believe that they wouldn't have allowed their Aurors to kill fleeing suspects, even before Crouch." "It doesn't--" Elkins began, then made a small high noise in the back of her throat, as she felt the ruler leave her palm. The Professor smiled lazily, then let go of her hand. "Let's just let it pass this time, shall we?" she said pleasantly. "You're really not much good with physical pain. Are you, Elkins." Elkins opened her eyes. She jerked her hand back to her side and glared at the Professor with an expression of pure hatred. "Thanks," she muttered, after a long moment. She took a deep breath. "It doesn't seem impossible to *me,*" she said. "This is a society that has declared the Avadra Kedavra 'Unforgiveable,' isn't it? And yet, as you yourself have mentioned, it seems like a merciful enough death. Not a bad way to go, really. And yet, it is held to be Unforgivable by this society. So I think that we can run into some error if we take the 'warrior culture' motif too far. In some ways, it is. In others, it is not. And I think that we are meant to understand that in its *judicial* practices, at any rate, the Wizarding World isn't analogous to a warrior culture at all. It's--" "But that's where I'm skeptical," interrupted the Professor. "Crouch relaxing a few safeguards, I can see. But not his having to do away with a law that NEVER EVER allowed the auror to shoot the Fleeing Suspect in the back. Who would make that law? Can you imagine the *Romans* passing such a law?" "Well, can you imagine the Romans abolishing capital punishment?" retorted Elkins. "And yet apparently, the Wizarding World has done just that. In the Pensieve sequence in GoF, Crouch calls his son's crimes 'a crime so heinous that we have rarely heard the like of it within this court.' The mob is hissing and jeering. And yet no one even raises the possibility of death as a possible sentence. Can you really imagine Brutus sentencing his son to *life in prison?*" A dreamy expression crossed Professor Lucky-Kari's face. "Crouch was like Brutus," she mused. "Wasn't he." "He was, rather," agreed Elkins. "I have dreams sometimes," sighed the Professor. "Dreams about trembling in the dock, with Bartemius Crouch presiding over my tribunal--" "For God's sake, Professor," hissed Elkins. "Pull yourself together!" She paused, glanced quickly around the restaurant, then leaned in close, to whisper urgently in the Professor's ear. "In those dreams of yours, are you actually *guilty?* Or do you stand falsely accu--" George cleared his throat. Elkins jumped. "Er," she stammered. "Um, yeah. Well. Yes. But anyway, the Brutus analogy really is quite clear. Crouch was doing a Brutus. So he surely would have been calling for the death sentence, if one had existed, don't you think? His wife would have been prevailing on him to spare their son's *life.* It would have come up. Instead, he calls for life imprisonment, and she faints dead away. Nor is the crowd disappointed in Crouch. They're all hissing and screaming as if they'd just won the...the *Vengeance Lottery* or something..." "There's a Vengeance Lottery?" murmered George. "I'd say that life in Azkaban is the most severe sentence one can receive, wouldn't you?" "Actually, I--" "Ah!" interrupted Elkins. "What about the Dementor's Kiss, I hear you cry? Well! The Dementor's Kiss has only been authorized twice that we know of in canon. Once for Sirius Black, and once for young Crouch. Both of them Azkaban *escapees.* So the implication here seems to be that the Kiss is *only* used for those who have proven that the wizarding prison cannot hold them by virtue of escaping from it. It's a last ditch effort." "Actually," the Professor began again. "I--" "But there's no death penalty, Professor." "Elkins..." "There's no death penalty." "*Elkins!*" snapped the Professor. "I *agree* with you about the death penalty." "You do?" Elkins blinked. "Oh. Oh, well. All right, then. So you see my point, I trust. When it comes to the WW's *judicial* system, the analogy that we want to be looking to in order to evaluate Crouch's measures is *not* Livian Rome. And it's not the United States, either. It's a place that has no death penalty. It's a place that does not ordinarily countenance weapons (read, 'spells') that make it very easy to kill someone instantly. It's a place without a gun culture, in other words. The analogue here is contemporary Britain. No death penalty. And *no* shooting fleeing suspects in the back. Not under normal circumstances, at any rate. Only in times of war, or as a special measure taken against terrorist activities. It *is* an unusual circumstance, Professor. For an Auror to use AK on the hypothetical Fleeing Suspect is *not* business as usual in the Wizarding World. Warrior culture or no." The Professor thought about this, then shook her head doubtfully. "I still think you'd have to be a bleeding heart of the bloodiest variety to ban all lethal force in the case of the Fleeing Suspect," she said. "Do you?" Elkins glanced down at her own heart, then shrugged. "Well, but wizards have options that we muggles don't, don't they? Take that binding spell,for example. We've already seen it used three times, by three different wizards, in the canon. Snape uses it to immobilize Lupin in the Shrieking Shack. Shortly thereafter, Lupin himself uses it to restrain Peter. And then Peter uses it in GoF, to bind Harry to the gravestone. It would certainly seem to be a very commonly known spell, don't you think? Snape doesn't even need his *wand* to cast it. He just snaps his fingers. Can you really imagine that trained Aurors wouldn't know it? For that matter, can you really imagine that they wouldn't be familiar with *lots* of different ways to prevent a suspect from fleeing, short of Killing him? Muggles don't always have that option, but wizards? Wizards *do.* So it seems perfectly reasonable to me to believe that under normal circumstances, they would *not* be able to kill a Fleeing Suspect." Elkins took a deep breath. "Therefore," she concluded. "It is an *extreme* measure. The Aurors had just as many options open to them under Crouch's regime as they did before. There is *still* no reason for them to be practising the AK on people who have never been convicted, nor even formally accused, of any crime. Therefore, Cindy's argument that Crouch's authorization to kill should not be read as perilous does not hold." Professor Lucky-Kari took a slow sip of her wine. "Elkins," she said. "Why didn't you bring this any of this up during the actual *exam?*" "I can't help it," whined Elkins. "I'm not any *good* with competition, Professor. I never have been. I can't stand the pressure. I just go all to pieces. I...well, I Crack." "Well, that's certainly regrettable, but it's really not my problem, is it? You knew when you joined my class that I was sitting an oral examination. You really *do* have to Toughen up one of these days, you know." "Well, I...well, okay, fair enough, but what about the second question, then? I give a complete answer, *with* canon, and then you give Avery and Cindy equal marks for a couple of lousy 'me toos?'" The Professor sighed. "Look, Elkins," she said. "You want to know the truth, here, I wanted to knock you down a bit for that > I think Crouch Sr. authorized Aurors to kill anyone they damn well > felt like, with little or no accountability to anyone for their > actions. "That was really overstating your case, don't you think? It was--" "Over-analizing?" "No, not over-analizing. *Strident.* Strident and over-stated. And really pretty silly, too, when it comes right down to it. After all, you surely didn't mean to imply that Frank Longbottom was Avada Kedavring his neighbours for their tennis table while Crouch Sr. looked the other way, were you? That's Dekulakization, not the Potterverse!" "Dekulakization?" repeated Elkins numbly. "Yes. Dekulakiazation is--" "I know what dekulakization is. I just...um." Elkins shook her head, then laughed helplessly. "I, um, just *really* never thought that it was a word that I would see on *this* list. I mean, *ever.*" "'Dekulakization and Collectivization from 1921-1929 in Soviet Russia,'" said Professor Lucky-Kari smugly. "That was the title of a paper of mine that got a perfect mark. Naturally, I remember it quite well. In fact...what?" she asked Elkins, whose lips were twitching suspiciously. "WHAT?" "Nothing." Elkins bit her lower lip. "It's, uh, nothing, Professor. I just, um, well...Well. Well, my. You really *do* identify with Percy Weasley, don't you?" "Oh, shut up," the Professor told her. "Not that I mind, Professor," added Elkins hastily. "I mean, I just *love* Percy. I defend him all the time! You've noticed that, Professor, surely. Haven't you? Haven't you?" The Professor glanced down to the floor. "Those shoes are Italian leather, Elkins," she said calmly. "If you really *must* do that, then kindly stick to the soles." She shook her head. "I really don't see Dekulakization as a realistic role- model for the Potterverse. And that's why I knocked down your marks. You were exaggerating. You have a terrible tendency to do that, you know." "But I just can't help it, Professor! The instant that Sirius started talking about those Aurors, I just, just..." "Just went all Alexandr Solzhenitsyn?" "Well...yes. I suppose so." "I know, Elkins. I know. But we really do have to stick with the canon, you know." "But JKR worked for Amnesty International! Surely she felt exactly the same way!" "You aren't really arguing that the reader's best guess as to authorial intent is *canon,* Elkins, are you?" "Well, I, er, no. No, no, of course not. Absolutely not. But is it such a bad analogy, really? I mean, just look!" Elkins struggled up onto her knees, banging her head against the bottom of the table. "Ow." She fumbled in her pocket, drew out a battered book, and began leafing through it wildly. "Look!" "Is that _The Gulag Archipelago?_" asked the Professor, with some interest. "That's one of my all-time favorite books!" "Really? Mine too. Here we go. Section 10 f Article 58..." "You mean, 'Propaganda or agitation, containing an appeal for the overthrow, subverting, or weakening of the Soviet power...and, equally, the dissemination or preparation or possession of literary materials of similar nature?'" asked the Professor, frowning. "Yes. What Solzenitsyn has to say about that is: 'Such was the fearlessness of the great Power when confronted by the *word* of a subject! . . . . After all, anything which does not strengthen must weaken. Indeed, anything which does not completely coincide, *subverts!*'" Elkins nodded enthusiastically. "And *then* he quotes Mayakovsky," she said. "'And he who sings not with us today is against us!'" "Yes, Elkins," agreed the Professor. "But what on earth does any of that have to do with this discussion?" "It..." Elkins blinked. "Oh," she said. "Oh. No, sorry. Wrong thread. *That* quote was relevant to the *Twins* thread. No, no, *this* was the part I was looking for... "'Lists of names prepared up above, or an initial suspicion, or a denunciation by an informer, or any anonymous denunciation, were all that was needed to bring about the arrest of the suspect, followed by the inevitable formal charge.' "Now doesn't *that* sound familiar?" "It doesn't sound like the Potterverse," said the Professor, shaking her head. "Doesn't it? Just look at what we've seen of the situation under Crouch. Karkaroff gives a bunch of names, right? The *only* useful name we see him give is Rookwood. And then, the *very next thing we see* is Bagman's trial. Why was he arrested? Was there any evidence *before* his arrest, other than Rookwood's denunciation? Was there any evidence for Rookwood's arrest, other than Karkaroff's denunciation? Sirius says that Karkaroff 'put a load of other people in Azkaban in his place.' But the only genuinely *useful* name he gives in the Pensieve is Rookwood's. So Rookwood's arrest must have led to a whole *slew* of other arrests, and most of those people must *not* have been let free, as Bagman was. Was there hard evidence for *any* of those people to be arrested at all? Or were they just arrested on the say-so of other convicts?" "We don't know," said the Professor strictly. "And there's no reason to suppose that there wasn't a perceived need to find some evidence against them before they were formally charged." "Oh, yes there is!" cried Elkins. "Because of the Penseive Four! Both Sirius and Dumbledore admit that there was not much evidence against them at all. But even more than that, Sirius says that Crouch Jr. was 'definitely caught in the company of people I'd bet my life were Death Eaters -- but he might have been in the wrong place at the wrong time.' In the wrong place at the wrong time? He was *arrested* and formallly *charged.* On what grounds? Sounds like an 'initial suspicion' to me. Or perhaps like an 'anonymous denunciation.' And then he was held in Azkaban awaiting trial. At his sentencing, he pleads with his father not to send him *back* to the dementors! So it really doesn't look to me as if there was any real evidence needed at all to file formal charges under Crouch's regime. If you're suspected for any reason at all, then you can be arrested, you can be formally charged, you can be thrown in with the dementors, *and* you can be subject to the Unforgiveables!" Elkins leafed wildly through her battered copy of _The Gulag Archipelago._ She found another bookmarked page and began reading. "'People have speculated about a Tibetan potion that deprives a man of his will, and about the use of hypnosis. Such explanations must by no means be rejected: if the NKVD possessed such methods, clearly *there were no moral rules* to prevent resorting to them. Why not weaken or muddle the will?'" She slammed her book shut with an air of mad triumph. "Why not, indeed?" she cried. "But unlike the NKVD, the WW *did* have moral rules preventing them from using that technique. Until *Crouch* got his hands on them, that is. And then, here, when Solzenitsyn talks about torture..." "I know all about the chapter on torture, Elkins," said Professor Lucky-Kari quietly. "You do? Oh." Elkins' gaze fell on the Professor's old battered FEATHERBOAS. "Oh, right, of course you do, Professor, please forgive me. Of course. Then naturally you remember the clause about 'in view of the extraordinary situation prevailing....interrogators were allowed to use violence and torture on an unlimited basis, at their own discretion...'" "I know all *about* the chapter on torture, Elkins," repeated Professor Lucky-Kari grimly. "Right. So you see what I'm saying, don't you? My image of the WW under Crouch as falling into the abyss of Stalinist Russia may have been a *bit* exaggerated, but there are plenty of indications that in some ways, it really isn't all that absurd parallel to be drawing. Just ask JOdel, will you? *JOdel* agrees with me! She said that the Lestranges deserved a *medal* for saving the WW from totalitarianism!" "Well...possibly," conceded the Professor. "Possibly. Although I really can't see Bartemius Crouch countenancing Aurors AK'ing people in the back and then confiscating their belongings, like happened under Stalin. Can you?" "Well..." "*Can* you? Honestly, now, Elkins. Honestly." "Honestly?" Elkins struggled for a moment with this concept, then sighed. "No," she admitted. "I guess not. Crouch was a man of honor. He did release Karkaroff in exchange for his information, just like he said he would, and in spite of the fact that Aurors like Moody would have preferred to 'throw him back to the dementors.' And people *were* acquitted under his regime. All of those Death Eaters got off the hook, and so did Bagman. Crouch wasn't Stalin." "No," agreed Lucky-Kari severely. "He most certainly was not. And *that* is why you didn't get your A, Elkins. Well...that, and Frank Longbottom. You know perfectly well that Dumbledore liked Frank Longbottom. So he couldn't have been so bad either. Just like Cindy said." "But that's was *my* argument, not Cindy's!" objected Elkins. "I used that argument all the way back in January, to explain to Eric Oppen why I couldn't bring myself to believe that Frank Longbottom Was Judge Dredd On Acid! Cindy was stealing my argument!" "Well, if you didn't want Cindy to steal your argument, then you shouldn't have left an opening for her to do so by making that *ridiculous* attempt to smear poor Crouch by painting him as a Stalin figure, with the Aurors as his bluecaps. I'm sorry, Elkins. The C stands." "But..." "It stands, Elkins." "But..." "My dinner is cooling, Elkins." Elkins opened her mouth once more to object, snapped it shut, turned on one heel, and then turned back. "It was the gum, wasn't it?" she hissed venemously. "Elkins..." "It *was.* It was the *gum.* There's bias in play here. Bias, pure and simple. It's...you're...I...I mean, all right. All right. I can see you favoring Cindy. But *Avery,* Professor? Avery? Over *me?*" The Professor shrugged. "I like Avery," she said. "Who CARES if you like him?" screamed Elkins. "THat's not the *point! * The *point* is whether he is a good STUDENT or not! And that has absolutely no bearing on whether or not you happen to LIKE him! It-- "He gave me gum," said Lucky-Kari simply. "So WHAT? What does *gum* have to do with academic--" "It reveals character. All behavior reveals character. And distributing gum shows a generous spirit." "A generous SPIRIT? He's a Death Eater!" "Yes, but a very generous one. That really mitigates things, don't you think? And besides, Elkins, I really don't think that labelling a nice fellow like Avery with a nasty term like 'Death Eater' is quite fair. It just seems...excessive, somehow." "But he IS a Death Eater!" "And besides," added the Professor. "He's funny." "FUNNY?" "Yes. That scene in the graveyard really gave me a chuckle, the way he walked right into Voldemort's Cruciatus like that. Besides, he's such an insignificant character, isn't he? He's only had seven words of dialogue, and only one appearance, and that's been comedic. He's a Toon, really. He doesn't even warrant the second dimension. So it's sort of silly to go around calling him a *Death Eater,* don't you think?" Elkins stared at her. "I..." she stammered. "I, I, I...but what does the fact that he's FUNNY have to do with his CHARACTER? What does the fact that he's TOONISH have to do with his BEHAVIOR? What does the fact that he's INSIGNIFICANT have to do with--" "Oh, stop over-analizing the text, will you," the Professor snapped irritably. "What difference does it make? It's just getting tedious. You know what your problem is, Elkins? You simply aren't a sympathetic character. That's your problem. It makes people want to see you taken down a peg." "*I'm* not a sympathetic character? Me? Well, what about Cindy? Cindy proved herself capable of murder all the way back in February. Surely you haven't forgotten that, Professor?" asked Elkins desperately. "Surely you haven't forgotten that she tried to kill *Avery?*" "Forgotten?" Professor Lucky-Kari raised an eyebrow. "Forgotten? Oh, no, Elkins. No, I assure you. My *memory* is as good as it ever was." Elkins went very pale. "Your grade," concluded the Professor calmly. "Stands." The silence was broken by the clatter of an approaching cart. "Dessert, Elkins?" asked George cheerfully, gesturing to the assorted sweets the waiter was bringing to the table. Elkins glanced at the dessert cart. She snarled wordlessly, then swivelled on one heel and stalked out of the restaurant. "That last bit was really uncalled for, George," said Professor Lucky- Kari, eyeing the chocolate mousse speculatively. "Don't you think?" "Uncalled for?" George shrugged. "Who cares? It was funny." ====================================================================== For an explanation of the acronyms and theories in this post, visit Hypothetic Alley at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin20Files/hypothe ticalley.htm and Inish Alley at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows &tbl=13 From porphyria at mindspring.com Sun Sep 1 21:47:09 2002 From: porphyria at mindspring.com (Porphyria) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 17:47:09 -0400 Subject: The role of knowledge and ignorance in HP (was: Abstemiousness with truth) Message-ID: <5E3E71FD-BDF4-11D6-A294-000393465128@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43465 I'd like to defend Darkthirty's interesting (and difficult!) essay on the role of truth and fantasy in Harry Potter. The following is my own riff; it is inspired by post #43358 and the downstream commentary, but I admit I might be rerouting the discussion from what Darkthirty had in mind. If I misrepresent the original argument, I apologize! But I think my points will be clearer for everyone if I just start fresh instead of making a point-by-point reply to the original post. I think by now Darkthirty has made clear that this analysis does not posit that "the books are all Harry's fantasy." Rather, what I understand from this theory is that the role of knowledge in the books is constricted in such a way that it supports a reading that there is something particularly self-contained, nearly solipcistic about Harry, and that the world of the books is extremely walled off from the real world. Eileen has argued (#43446) that all fairy tale, and in fact all fiction partakes of some elements of fantasy and suspended belief on the part of the reader. As she makes clear, the point of reading fantasy is to find the expression of real values. Ideal values, yes, but the inner truth of the heart. I agree but would like to counter that, from what I understand of Darkthirty's reading, the HP books have a particular aversion towards knowledge that merits some analysis. Specifically, within these narratives, the usefulness of knowledge must cede, must fail, to make room for the supremacy of will power, love, loyalty and other qualities internal to the hero -- feelings that would sustain an abused boy but still preserve his protective fantasy. The heroism, the plot resolution of the books does not hinge on Harry's relationship to the outside, objective world, but rather to his emotional relationship to other people and himself. My own observations follow on the role of knowledge and ignorance in HP. This theme is even more complicated than I'm making it sound, but this is what I've come up with for a start: 1. Hermione, who isn't a Ravenclaw There was some discussion recently about why Hermione isn't sorted into Ravenclaw. I thought Hermione herself was very clear on the point from what she tells Harry in PS/SS when he argues that he's not as good a wizard as she: "Books! And cleverness! There are more important things -- friendship and bravery and -- oh Harry -- be careful!" To me this is a very clear-cut statement of her own values, her own ideal qualities. Yes, she has what it takes to be in Ravenclaw, but friendship and bravery are what she actually believes in, what she strives for her in herself. I also see this remark as an authorial one: the books quite clearly show feeling to be better, in the end, than thinking. Typically, Hermione's books smarts are very valuable to Harry, but there is a sense that they fail at the last point; they are great, but second best. For instance, in PS/SS, her knowledge of Devil's Snare and her logic in tackling the potions challenge enables Harry to make it to the end of the obstacles. But she panics in the first case, her nerve temporarily scuttling her knowledge. In the seconds case, the narrative makes it physically, iconically clear that *Hemione's logic will enable Harry to pass to the next level, but she herself must at that point cede the heroic function to him.* It's his story after all. And he eventually perseveres over Quirrell because of a) his innocence, his lack of possessive desire for the Stone, b) his mother's love and protection, c) his relationship with Dumbledore. Nothing that Harry has read in a book helps him at the very end, only his inner nature, his relationships, his emotions. This is even clearer in CoS wherein Hermione figures out the clue to the mystery, she figures out that the monster is a basilisk and she figures out even how to protect against it. She saves Penelope's life. But she's also knocked out of commission by a narrative determined to limit her usefulness. In the end Harry must confront the Riddle and the monster alone, and what saves him is very explicitly his expressed loyalty to Dumbledore. Fawkes and the Hat save him, along with his own courage and strength of will. Again, in PoA, Hemione is the one who *knows* all about the Time Turner. She knows how to physically operate it and she knows the rules that must be followed for its use. But at the crucial moment, Harry must forget these rules, he must *ignore* (here note the etymological sense of that word, he must behave as if ignorant) what Hermione knows to be true: that you cannot let yourself see yourself. But Harry's heroic instincts, his intrinsic sense of what must be done (and is inwardly-turning ability to see the mirror image of himself), is actually what succeeds in saving everyone's souls. Darkthirty said: << One scene that struck me as, however, relevatory is the 2 Harry part of that very Time Turner episode, the most transcendental moment of the series so far, bar none. It is through Harry's "imagining" that he finds his strength. Rowling seems here to be commenting quite directly on what I have described. With all the emotional tingles I felt as I read the passages, the alarm bells were not far in the distance. And remember, Harry at that point was also surrounded by Dementors, by insanity, as it were. I would say that that scene alone almost makes the Potter books "equivocal." >> Yes, he did it through his imagination; in the face of the threat of rupture from the Dementors, he conjured up an image of his father which was really an image of himself, and then he went back again in time and completed his own fantasy once he recognized it. The perfect circle of the time traveling conceit does represent a closed-off environment of wish and wish-fulfillment. In this case, Harry's need for the love of an absent father is fulfilled by his own image: both the image of himself and the image he invents of a protective father figure (a Patronus, literally). This is what saves him, but it saves several others as well. His fantasy is not purely narcissistic, but it is bounded by a closed circle of love and friendship. This is, I think, what Hermione/the author is getting at by saying that friendship and bravery trump objective knowledge. 2. The Second Task Darkthirty mentioned the second task. This is what I believe to be its significance to the overall argument. Darkthirty, please let me know if you agree with this or not. :-) Harry utterly blows it figuring out the second task. He fails to *learn* what to do. What he *should have done* (from the evil Crouch Jr.'s point of view) is read the answer in a book. A perfectly good book about magical plants was, erm, planted right next to Harry's bed for long enough, but picking up a book isn't in his nature. Minutes before the task, Dobby arrives in the form of an Elf ex Machina to help him out with the Gillyweed. Why? Because they are friends, because Dobby cares about Harry and Harry is nice to Dobby. And as always, Harry gets by with a little help from his friends. So Harry gets to the bottom of the lake, and then what? Harry 'should have known' that Dumbledore would not let anyone die. But he doesn't 'know' this. He forgets, he doesn't think about it, he doesn't logic it through. Instead he goes by instinct, by a heroic, intrinsic unknowing. He's motivated by the same heroic instinct that leads him to persevere elsewhere. In Darkthirty's words: << His success depends upon some inner quality, which may or may not be connected to his so-called magical qualities, that makes him stay. He goes through no internal debate. His staying was not quite a decision; rather, as he later reflects, it was an action, the right one, we agree, made in ignorance. A bit of pathos. >> And he's rewarded for his great compassion and loyalty towards both his friends and the friends of others. Mind you, I'm not saying this is bad! I'm simply saying that the books go out of their way to say that knowledge is nice, but there are other things far more important. Knowledge alone will not pull you through, and sometimes you're better off without it. 3. The classical mystery genre with its head cut off Back in May on this list there was a thread called Coherence (and Coherence II) which discussed the degree to which the 'clues' in the books add up, and the degree to which these books correspond to the classical mystery story a la Agatha Christie. It was a complicated discussion that I won't try to summarize, but one thing I need to bring up here is Pippin's remark in post #39053: << The most subversive thing about HP as a mystery series is that our detective NEVER correctly solves the main mystery. So far, the villain always turns out to be someone Harry never suspected and is unmasked by someone other than Harry himself. >> Abosolutely! In the classic version of the genre, the bad guy is the last person you think, but the attentive reader should be able to figure it out from clues, or at least see the hints on a reread. This is mostly true of HP. But here, instead of the main character being a brilliant, logical, supremely rational intellectual who puts all the pieces together, instead we have Harry who is inevitably shocked at finding the real villain. The revelation of Quirrell and Crouch Jr, in particular, come out of left field. Harry is a figure of ignorance, slapped in the face with truth and recovering nonetheless. We see evidence of Harry's intellectual nonchalance in a variety of tiny details. Harry isn't insightful or curious unless a life is at stake. He doesn't ask very good questions about the WW. He doesn't grill Sirius, Hagrid, or anyone else about what his parents were like. His insight into the other characters pales in comparison to ours. He never asks Neville about his parents, or for that matter Hermione about hers. He is content to go about his own business and enjoy the few things that do interest him. He's not a booklearner; he appears to be a B student -- in fact he and Ron take great delight in inventing answers to their homework when they don't know the "right" one. (Both Trelawney and Binns are lampooned as teachers of pointless knowledge.) Harry prefers to experience things intuitively; he'd rather ride a broom than listen to Hooch (or Hermione) talk about broom riding. But Harry perseveres due to *sheer will power.* The ending of GoF illustrates this the best. What saves him is not the ability to withstand a Crucio or fend off an Imperio or cast spells or, heaven forbid, solve mysteries. He falls into Crouch Jr's trap just as planned. What saves him is his extraordinary strength of will with the Priori Incantatem effect. And once he sets his mind against Voldemort, he is rewarded, again, by love and loyalty: the echoes of his parents appear to give him good advice and embolden him on his way. His touching gesture of retrieving Cedric's body for his parents stands as, I think, the pivotal ethical statement of the series so far: be true and decent to the people you care about and the people they care about; this defines the hero. Of course it's also the nightmare of the abused child turned inside-out: if you only love people enough, if you are true and loyal and caring, then you will be rewarded with love and honor back again. And these are all qualities that can be dredged up from within, they are the qualities found in fantasy, desire and strength of will. They are touching, inspiring, but still trapped in a self-contained view of the world; the don't address the outer world of logic and learning, but the inner one of the heart. I see this as well in all the metaphors Darkthirty points out: the protections around Hogwarts and Harry's home, the anti-Muggle charms protecting the WW. I also see it in the working of the most powerful magic Harry knows: to cast a Patronus he must access a happy thought, to withstand an Imperio he must access his own will power and defiance. This to me means that Darkthirty is right to suggest that something is up with the role of knowledge and ignorance in the books. Of course Harry's story is a Cinderella fantasy, we all know this. But there is a real thematic trend that *willing* something, that having *good intentions* is far more vital and practical than actual knowledge. OTOH, some of this will change over time. I have elsewhere speculated (in that darn Job essay) that knowledge is in fact dangerous for Harry, but he will get more of it over time, and suffer from it. As Dumbledore says, "The truth...It is a beautiful and terrible thing, and should therefore be treated with great caution." The truth will eventually have its devastating effect: the series will end when all questions are answered. This supports Darkthirty's reading, since the point of the fantasy will at that point come to an end. And while I don't believe it will come to an end when Harry "wakes up," I do suspect it will come to an end when Harry has resolved some of his "abused boy in the cupboard" issues and can sustain a greater degree of, if not booklearning, at least truthful awareness. ~Porphyria From abigailnus at yahoo.com Sun Sep 1 22:38:48 2002 From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus) Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 22:38:48 -0000 Subject: Which Twin is which In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43466 I wrote: > << I will persist in my claim that the twins have no character depth > whatsoever until someone points out a way of telling them apart.) >> And Catladay de Los Angeles responded: > > Actually Jana (george_weasleys_girlfriend) long ago wrote a long > essay proving that George is the nice twin that originated as > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/16582 and I can't > remember what website houses a more developed version. To which I say: This isn't the first time I've heard the suggestion that George Weasly is the nice twin (although I can think of at least one instance in recent memory in which someone suggested that the opposite is the truth). However, the evidence in question doesn't suggest, in my opinion, that George is the nice twin, but rather that he is the *nicer* one. The twins are, in general, nice (to Harry, at least. Let's leave aside for the moment the question of whether or not they are cruel to people outside their own group) but George is nicer. He berates Wood for encouraging Harry to "get the snitch or die trying", for example. None of this suggests, however, that Fred is not nice - he participates in all of the nice things that George does, after all. There is, in fact, only one occasion that I can think of to suggest that Fred isn't nice, and that's his infamous "keep your nose out of this" comment to Ron, and frankly, I'm reluctant to dub a person not nice because of a single statement. So we're left with good evidence that George is nicer then Fred. By all rights, this should be what I was asking for,right? A way to tell the twins apart? Except that I guess that wasn't exactly what I was looking for. Saying that one of the twins is nicer then the other one would help me tell them apart if I had them both in front of me. But suppose that I was walking down the street and ran into one of the Weasly twins. I could tell by talking to him that he is irreverent, funny, and has a penchant for breaking the rules. I might be able to detect a degree of niceness in him, but without the other twin it would be impossible for me to determine who I was talking to. What I'm looking for, when I say I want a way to tell the twins apart are characteristics which are distinct to each twins, like a talent for music or a bad temper. Having the same quality in varying degrees doesn't help to turn the twins into seperate entities because they are still both needed in order to differentiate one from the other - neither of them stands on his own. Abigail From smellee17 at hotmail.com Sun Sep 1 20:44:19 2002 From: smellee17 at hotmail.com (smellee17) Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 20:44:19 -0000 Subject: reply:Voldemorts goals- OotP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43467 Molly wrote- yields my #1 HP Universe Question: What did the DE's _do_ besides kill/torture?]) - what else were his goals? Plain old power, a dictatorship? Over the WW or over everyone? I really wish we knew more about Voldemort's politics and views - Molly, The one specifically stated goal of Voldemort's that I can think of is his wish to conquer death. In the end of GoF, Voldemort tell his Death Eaters that his one goal has been to be immortal. He says he was to ambitious when he tried to steal the philosophers stone, so now he'll settle for a human body. Hell probably try again later for the immortality bit. So that's my thoughts on what Voldemort's first goal is, but i also think ( speculation only) that immortality is a step on his quest to purge the world of muggles and mudbloods. Thinking about his desire for immortality, I thought about the title of the fifth book. Phoenixes don't die, or at least they rise from their ashes. What if the Order of the Phoenix is a group or association, kind of like the Death Eaters, who are dedicated to gaining phoenix-like powers. I think Voldemort would be very happy if he could rise from the dead. signed smellee From kaityf at jorsm.com Sun Sep 1 21:25:00 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 16:25:00 -0500 Subject: Wizard World (was Why I Dislike The Twins/Toon Talk . . .harsh WW) In-Reply-To: <20020901194705.73652.qmail@web20008.mail.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020901154315.01efbcd0@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> No: HPFGUIDX 43468 At 9/1/02 12:47 PM, you wrote: >--- MariaJ wrote: > > > It's the general condescending attitude toward muggles (I recently started > > re-reading PS/SS and cringed when in Ch 1 McGonagall says about muggles: > > "They're not completely stupid." Minerva, how could you?), the way > > characters that are perceived as weak, like Quirrell or Moaning Myrtle, are > > considered jokes (and thus legitimate targets for any kind of snide or rude > > remarks) as well as the more obvious things like their Justice System, the > > fact that there are House Elfs or the prejudice against people like Lupin, > > Hagrid etc, people who aren't quite, quite like Us. > > That Draco and Snape, ten (if not more) times worse than the twins, can > > get away with their bullying is just another symptom (to me) of the fact > > that the wizarding world is seriously messed up. I don't see how the wizarding world is and more or less messed up than the Muggle world -- our world, that we live in now. I see the same kinds of attitudes toward different groups of people all the time. Poor kids are often thought of as stupid by ignorant people. Kids with learning disabilities are often considered stupid too. People who are perceived as weak are considered jokes, and therefore legitimate targets of ridicule. Remember the "Revenge of the Nerds" movies? Although the nerds beat the jocks in the end, do you not think the nerds were rather stereotyped in those movies? I can think of many other instances where nerds are made fun of. And not just in movies. In real life too. The nerdy-looking kids were always considered weaklings and made fun of. The problems with the justice system would require a longer explanation, but not everyone thinks it meets out justice to everyone equally. The attitudes toward house-elves reflects perfectly the attitudes that people once had toward slaves in American and I'll warrant that it reflects pretty accurately the attitudes the upper classes once had toward the servant classes. In addition, there has always been a fear of those "not like us," and a prejudice to cope with that fear. It's a basic Us/Them psychological mind set that is part of being human, wizard or Muggle. As for Draco and Snape getting away with things more so than F and G, think about what goes on in our schools (at least our American schools). In every school, the same sort of injustice goes on. I've seen it myself and I know it goes on in my son's school. I don't want to go off on a tangent about who I think gets away with more misbehavior, so I'll leave it at that. JKR has said that she believes her books are like mirrors. They reflect the beliefs of the reader. She said this in response to the criticism that her books were evil, but I think it can go beyond that. I think her books are definitely like mirrors, reflecting our world. What I like so much about them is that in spite of all the unfairness, injustice and downright cruelty, it is still the positive qualities of life that wins out in the end: courage, friendship, love, loyalty, responsibility, innocence. It may not work so easily in the real world, but it sure feels good to me when it works in the HP books! Rebecca then said: >I know what you mean. As much as I like Harry Potter, I do get wound up >about it at times. The way Muggles >are treated drives me crazy. They're just dismissed out of hand most of >the time, if not insulted. And >even Arthur, who adores Muggle things, ends his affection comments with >"bless them" like they're >children. Muggles never receive any respect, even by the non-persecutors. Again, I see this as a reflection of real life. I've known people who were just like Arthur, but about things/people other than Muggle. I don't see Arthur's attitude as being so bad, though. It's not much different from Hagrid's comment about not seeing how Muggles get on without magic. It's part amazement that they can do it. I think Arthur is as intrigued by the Muggle world as Harry was with the wizard world. >Likewise, I agree with you about the victims. It's like anyone who is a >victim brought it upon >themselves, especially if they are weak or nervous or meek. Same as in the real world. How long did it take before rape victims were recognized as victims, rather than women who brought the rape on themselves? There are other areas of life where the attitude of victim as responsible person still prevails, including some relatively recent ones on a world-wide level. The other thing to consider is that JKR's books are about the wizard world, not the Muggle world. Consequently, she doesn't have to include Muggles in anything. When it's absolutely necessary, Muggles are brought in to help, as they were when Sirius escaped from Azkaban. However, the wizard world is careful getting too close to Muggles. The reason was explained in the book. I think it was Hagrid who told Harry very early on that if Muggles knew about the wizards, they'd all be wanted things done by magic. I also don't think they want to interfere with the Muggle world. If JKR wants to unite the wizard and Muggle worlds in the end, I suppose she could, but I'd see that as another rather cheap plot twist. It's too "happy-ever-after," too perfect and too pat, which is not what I'd expect from JKR. Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Sep 1 21:26:10 2002 From: MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM (mitchbailey82) Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 21:26:10 -0000 Subject: Prediction - Dobby and Harry's Past Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43469 Ok we know that Dobby was the Malfoy's house elf though for exactly how long we don't know but I get the feeling that he was there during Voldemorts reign of terror, the time whn Draco was growing up and of course we know he was there for Draco's first two years at Hogwarts (COS). Now we here from Dobby in GOF that house elfs keep their masters secrets and Dobby certainly new about Tom Riddle (COS), and I think it is fair to assume that Lucius Malfoy was in Voldemorts inner- circle, so also I think that Dobby probably knows more about the death of Harrys parents/ Harrys parents involvement with fighting Voldemort/ in fact Harry's past in genneral than Harry does we also know that that Dobby doesn't have to keep the Malfoys secrets anymore now that he's not their elf, although he's clearly not used to it (gof - forget what chapter but it's when he meets Harry in the Kitchens) Know I started wondering why JKR brought Dobby back in GOF, the only really main thing he did (role he had) was with giving Harry the Gillyweed. There's got to be a reason as to why he's back... Now Dumbledore held back on telling Harry certain things (the end of PS). However I can't see Dobby doing this -in fact I've got this awful feeling that Dobby's going to 'spill the beans' so to speak (and knowing him what and how he says it is not going to be well thought out in the least) So I've got a feeling that Harry's going to hear from Dobby instead of a more appropriate source (eg Sirius/Dumbledore). There's two problems with this :- Firstly Dobbys version of events will be based on the DE's versions of events. Secondly we know how Harry reacted when he overheard that Sirius had supposedly betrayed his parents (POA) and the anger he had that nobody (not even Hagrid) had told him about this. So how will Harry handle any information that he may get from Dobby and is he ready to deal with any information he may be given? From jodel at aol.com Sun Sep 1 22:05:34 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 18:05:34 EDT Subject: Predictions Message-ID: <129.16c4ae86.2aa3e92e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43470 Oh why the hell not. Haven't seen this one come up yet. And I'm not sure that I believe it myself, but it would certainly fit an interpretation of the characters. Y'know how the endings of this kind of story generally always contain the seed of a possibility of the whole thing starting up again? One baddie always gets away, somebody's death is heavily implied but not verified for sure, things like that? Prediction; Draco Malfoy will not ever actually become a Death Eater. He'll want to. He'll talk a good fight. Everyone will THINK that he has taken the Mark, But he won't get the chance before Voldemort's ultimate defeat. Why not? Because his father won't let him. Lucius is fully committed to Voldy's vision for the future of the WW. But until the victory is nailed down he is not about to sacrifice the continuance of the precious Malfoy bloodline to bring it about. He will be able to make an excellent arguement to his Master that if the establishment of a pureblood regime is the goal, it would be folly to put the most promising examples of the future leaders at risk of Azkaban or the wrong end of an Auror's wand before that future is secure. So, no Dark Mark for Draco until he has secured the sucession and there is another baby Malfoy heir to take his place as an "innocent" non-combatant. In the meantime Draco can take his place in the first rank of umMarked supporters. Ergo, when Voldy and Lucius get theirs, there will be no way of prooving that Draco ever did more than approve of his father's openly stated views. Someone who wants to run away with the idea could interpret this as Lucius having had plenty of time to reconsider the wisdom of his own choice to back Voldemort and deciding to try to see that his son doesn't get the chance to make the same mistake. But my money is on bloody-minded considerations of heirs and assigns and the continuance of his line, myself. Other predictons: Dumbledore's death; Well, traditionally in any "Young Hero" tale (and we ARE agreed that Harry Potter is a Young Hero tale, aren't we?) the "Wise Councellor" gamepiece is ALWAYS taken off the board well before the Hero goes into his final confrontation with the enemy. He doesn't always die. But the Young Hero looses his council early enough in the proceedings to have to begin to learn to depend on his own judgement. So I would expect something to happen to remove Dumbledore from Harry's orbit around the climax of book 5 or anything up to 2/3 through book 6. Neville's function; Neville has obviously got a major function in the series. He gets called to the reader's attention too frequently not to. I am not one of the people who supports the view that he is an echo of Pettigrew. The Pettigrew compairison was a red-herring made by Harry in his own mind from hearsay before he ever actually met Pettigrew. I am more in line with the school who believes that Neville will take everybody by surprise by performing some devastating act of magic which will completely disrupt the progress of one of the major conflicts of one of the remaining three books. Whether he survives it might be dependent on which book this takes place in. The Sacrificial Wolf; Yeah, I see this. Probably soon, too. I'm sorry, the character of Lupin is one of the nicest ones we've met in the series but he showed up wearing a lable that reads "Tragic Figure; Virtuous and Doomed" in letters writ large enough for the Middle School set to read, and I just cannot see my way around it. I don't know whether Peter of the Silver Hand is going to have anything to do with this, but the situation is suggestive. The Loose Cannons You Know; Part 1; Anyone with a strong talent for manipulation can push Sirius Black's buttons (I've said before that I'd really like to know just who he was chewing the fat with when he got the "brilliant" idea to pretend to be the Potters' secret keeper while Peter peformed the actual function.) . The same can be said of Ron Weasley. And either one of them will go off half-cocked without discussing the situation with someone of cooler head. I can easily see the Dark side "getting" to one of the other (not both) and setting him off in a manner which will do damage to "our" side -- completely without realizing that he is being used. I can't see either of them actually choosing the Dark side. Part 2; As for the twins; They've been lucky so far. But they've chiefly been opperating in the well-safeguarded little world of Hogwarts. I think that once they are out in the big, bad, Real WW their recklessness is going to get them in over their heads and it's going to be up to Percy who will have to pull them out. Again, I could easily see scenareos where any of the three could find that they have been used by the Dark Side, but have difficulty seeing any of them cooly choosing to a side which would hapily destroy Molly and Arthur (whatever their feelings toward their siblings). The Final Confrontation; Will come down to Voldemort and Harry without supporters present on either side. It always does. While I personally think that a redemption and transformation would make for better theater, it is more likely that Voldemort's death/distruction (with or without Harry's) is the probable result. The aproach to the final confrontation will echo that of Stone. Dumbledore out of the picture, the other adults irrelevant, Ron, hors de combat (permanently or not) getting Harry most of the way to the rendevous point, and Hermione unable to travel the final stretch of the journey. Snape; Will be with us at least into the last third of the final book. His behavior in the meantime is going to make us all SERIOUSLY question just whose side he is REALLY on. (Well, duh! That's a no-brainer.) Final prediction (for this batch); Whether or not Harry survives the series may be indicated by whether or not Sirius Black is still alive when Harry goes into the final confrontation with Voldemort. Can you really see Rowling sending him back to the Dursleys for a month after he brings down the Dark Lord? -JOdel From rvotaw at i-55.com Mon Sep 2 01:16:46 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 20:16:46 -0500 Subject: Harry and the Phoenix Message-ID: <003101c2521e$68615160$149ccdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 43471 Okay, a while back a discussion of Harry's emotions brought up tears, which brought up the healing power of the Phoenix tears, which brought up the beliefs that Fawkes probably belonged to Godric Gryffindor. Which brought up a possible parallel between Harry and the Phoenix. And also brought up a discussion of bloodlines versus decisions. I shall now attempt to tie all of these together in some sort of orderly fashion. Wish me luck. :) First, we know Salazar Slytherin was a bit fond of snakes, sans the Chamber of Secrets and Slytherin emblem. Second, we have adequate evidence that points out that Fawkes may have belonged to Godric Gryffindor. One thing being the fact that he doesn't die, he just keeps rising from his ashes as a chick all over again. Now, FB&WTFT mentions that the Phoenix is found in Egypt, India and China. Quite a far piece from England. Anyway, I'm assuming phoenixes aren't too common around those parts. Now, Fawkes would probably have been handed down through the generations of descendents of Godric Gryffindor. Which could mean that Dumbledore is a descendent of Gryffindor. Which leads to the bloodlines versus decisions discussion. Now, theoretically, suppose Godric Gryffindor (approximately 1,000 years ago, right?) had two children. Child A and child B. A and B both marry, have children, etc. Their children have children. And so on, over a thousand years. Quite possibly both descendents of children A and B could be heirs of Gryffindor and scarcely be related at all. Now, suppose that Dumbledore is a descendent of child A. Suppose Harry is a descendent of child B. They are both then descended from Godric Gryffindor. As would many others be. But what makes one person THE Heir of Gryffindor? Blood? Or choices? By blood, many, many witches or wizards could be heirs of Gryffindor, after a thousand years. (Unless, of course, Godric Gryffindor had only one child and each child after that had only one child, which is doubtful after a thousand years). Now, here is where I think the choices one makes comes into play. Rather than their being only one heir, after a thousand years, I believe the Heir is chosen. They must have the bloodline of Godric Gryffindor, but also make the right choices in life. Harry, for example, started making choices as soon as he got on the train at King's Cross. One example being "I think I can tell who the wrong sort are for myself, thanks." Another, Harry's desperate plea with the sorting hat "Not Slytherin." So that's where I think the separation occurs. The choices one makes in life thus determines whether the *descendent* of Godric Gryffindor will be chosen as the *heir* of Godric Gryffindor. I think (I know, not many agree here) that Dumbledore is the heir of Gryffindor and when he is gone, Harry will be "the chosen one." I think Fawkes is the symbolism for who is chosen. Right now, he is with Dumbledore. However, he's quite friendly with Harry. Sitting on his knee and all that. Healing him, singing, etc. Now, I admit in the chamber of secrets if Fawkes *hadn't* healed Harry he'd be dead, but in Dumbledore's office in GoF it wasn't totally necessary. Fawkes was being nice, he likes Harry. Now, this brings up the shared characteristics of the heirs of Slytherin/Gryffindor with the "pets." Not sure if that's the right word to use here, but anyway, Slytherin has the snake. Tom Riddle was a parseltounge. Talks to snakes. Harry has that too, believed to be from the bouncing AK of Voldemort. So, what about the phoenix? What qualities do the heirs of Gryffindor have? There are a few possibilities here: 1) Some sort of magic in the eyes. This comes from the healing powers of the Phoenix's tears, though I don't think Harry's tears will heal anyone. Except maybe his own emotional shakiness perhaps. Anyway, tears do come *from* the eyes, though, thus it could be symbolic. (Green eyes, etc.) 2) Got this from something in Smellee17's post: > Thinking about his desire for immortality, I thought about the > title of the fifth book. Phoenixes don't die, or at least they > rise from their ashes. What if the Order of the Phoenix is a group > or association, kind of like the Death Eaters, who are dedicated to > gaining phoenix-like powers. So, what if this is a quality given to the heirs of Gryffindor? But suppose only THE heir of Gryffindor could possess it. Thus, only one at a time. Thus, one has to give up their reign, so to speak, to pass it on to another. Hmm. Now, this has gone on much longer than I anticipated, I get a bit longwinded when I get started. However, if you have reached the end of this, congratulations. Now, do you have any idea what I just said and what it all means? :) Richelle ------------------------------------ Richelle R. Votaw 1st grade teacher Kentwood Elementary ------------------------------------ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From purple_801999 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 2 03:20:03 2002 From: purple_801999 at yahoo.com (purple_801999) Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 03:20:03 -0000 Subject: Whatever will become of the Marauder's Map? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43472 Jeff wrote- > My question for the board is... > > Will the Marauder's Map return? Who has it now and will Harry get it > back? > > > Remember, Dumbledore, who now, presumably, has the map, is the same > person who gave James' invisibility cloak to Harry. Dumbledore knew > how much trouble James and friends caused with that cloak. Why would > he give it to Harry? Now, why wouldn't he return the Marauder's > Map? :) > Because the map is illegal and dangerous. Because Harry gave the map to Barty Jr. and he used it to know when his father arrived at Hogwarts and was able to kill him before he got to Dumbledore. If the map fell into the wrong hands again anything could happen. Like Dumbledore's death or an attack on Hogwarts. I think the Map would be considered contraband like the various practical jokes and gags of the Weasley twins. I think the Map will show up again though, but I don't think anyone will return it to Harry on the grounds that it was his father's. -Olivia From Malady579 at hotmail.com Mon Sep 2 03:58:14 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (malady579) Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 03:58:14 -0000 Subject: Harry and the Phoenix In-Reply-To: <003101c2521e$68615160$149ccdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43473 Richelle wrote: >>> Now, this brings up the shared characteristics of the heirs of Slytherin/Gryffindor with the "pets." Not sure if that's the right word to use here, but anyway, Slytherin has the snake. Tom Riddle was a parseltongue.<<< Melody writes: Do you really think Riddle had the gift of talking to snakes purely because he was the Heir of Slytherin? I guess it would be hard for the heir to work the chamber without it though. Is it a kind of trait that is passed down through the years or like a special anointing by chance in the bloodline? Salazar picking his heir through time. Has the gift of parseltongue always been in the family and only this family? Also makes it kind of lucky Riddle was brilliant along with this special heir business. After all, Riddle did not have anyone that "passed" the Basilisk to him. He just figured it out somehow. It would be kind of bad for Salazar if his heir turned out to be as talented as say Colin Creevey. But never the less, the Heir of Slytherin does have a special ?talent?, so brings us to wonder if there is special talents for the Heir of Gryffindor, if in fact there is one. Richelle also wrote: >>>So, what about the phoenix? What qualities do the heirs of Gryffindor have? 1) Some sort of magic in the eyes. This comes from the healing powers of the Phoenix's tears, though I don't think Harry's tears will heal anyone. Except maybe his own emotional shakiness perhaps. Anyway, tears do come *from* the eyes, though, thus it could be symbolic. (Green eyes, etc.) <<< Melody writes: While this idea does bring a new ?gift? to Harry for him to use in defeating Voldie, I truly doubt it. If Harry can heal with his eyes like a phoenix, then I would think the heir of Slytherin could kill with his eyes like the Basilisk. Seems if it is meant to be a parallel of houses, then the talents of both would be matched. Richelle then quote and wrote: >> 2) Got this from something in Smellee17's post: >Thinking about his desire for immortality, I thought about the title of the fifth book. Phoenixes don't die, or at least they rise from their ashes. What if the Order of the Phoenix is a group or association, kind of like the Death Eaters, who are dedicated to gaining phoenix-like powers.< So, what if this is a quality given to the heirs of Gryffindor? But suppose only THE heir of Gryffindor could possess it. Thus, only one at a time. Thus, one has to give up their reign, so to speak, to pass it on to another. Hmm.<< And thus I wrote: True living forever does happen with the phoen...in a way. The phoenix keeps dying and then regenerating, but it must die. Kind of like a season. It comes and goes and then comes again. Kind of. When Fawkes dies in Dumbledore?s office, it burst into flames and then in its ashes came the baby phoenix Fawkes. It is not a constant strong adult presence though. The phoenix dies and becomes a baby phoenix once again. Actually quite like Voldemort. Hmm, never saw that parallel before. Anyway, in order for the Heir of Gryffindor to have this power, he (or she :-) could be possible) would live a while then die in flames (not a pleasant way to die but I am assuming the heir like the phoenix probably feels nothing?I hope) and then is regenerated from birth in their old self?s ashes and grows to full grown adulthood again. Not exactly the picture of a strong gift for the Heir of Gryffindor to have. Maybe the Heir of Gryffindor should have the power of song like the pheonix. The heir breaks out into a dance number every now and then to cheer moral. That would be cool. The suits of armour already like to sing Christmas carols...though not very well. I am sure Peeves will love it very much. Hmm, think I am on to something. ;) But seriously, the only gift the Heir of Slytherin does have, that I see, is the ability of ?domesticating? or controlling the Basilisk, which is also what Dumbledore has done with the phoenix, or has the phoenix chosen him. Which ever it is, I do agree with Richelle when she said, >>However, he's [Fawkes'] quite friendly with Harry. Sitting on his knee and all that. Healing him, singing, etc. Now, I admit in the chamber of secrets if Fawkes *hadn't* healed Harry he'd be dead, but in Dumbledore's office in GoF it wasn't totally necessary. Fawkes was being nice, he likes Harry.<< Hehe, I don?t know why but that made me laugh. Anyway, Fawkes is definitely showing favoritism and the potential of shifting to a new owner when Harry is old enough and Dumbledore is gone. Harry does have an ally in Fawkes since it (not sure if Fawkes is a girl or boy phoenix) has come to Harry?s aid in the chamber and graveyard. If Fawkes is destined to become Harry's then I do hope Hedwig will share Harry?s love and her cage with Fawkes. She can be kind snooty and jealous. So the question returns to whether Fawkes is loyal to Gryffindor?s heir or just to strong hearted, loyal wizards. It really depends on whether you believe there is a Heir of Gryffindor or not and if Dumbledore is the heir. Melody From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 2 03:19:38 2002 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 20:19:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizard World (was Why I Dislike The Twins/Toon Talk . . .harsh WW) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020901154315.01efbcd0@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> Message-ID: <20020902031938.13486.qmail@web20001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43474 --- Carol Bainbridge wrote: > > If JKR wants to unite the wizard and Muggle worlds > in the end, I suppose > she could, but I'd see that as another rather cheap > plot twist. It's too > "happy-ever-after," too perfect and too pat, which > is not what I'd expect > from JKR. > > > Carol Bainbridge > (kaityf at jorsm.com) > > http://www.lcag.org I don't want the Muggle and Wizard world to be united, I just want some Muggles involved. Let Hermione's parents, or Collin Creevy's dad help, or at least be involved. And yes, I understand that they have innocuous professions. Let it be other kid's parents, let it be cops or military. Just let some Muggles be involved in the downfall of Voldemort. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com From cpennylane12 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 2 03:29:47 2002 From: cpennylane12 at yahoo.com (cpennylane12) Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 03:29:47 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts: A tight schedule/ Timetable Challenge! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43475 Grey Wolf wrote: > The problem is this: some of the teachers have got schedules that, > although (remotely) possible, would stress them into suicide in a few > months. The most obvious ones are Snape and the DADA teacher. I'm from > the sciences view, so I'm going to express this with numbers. If you > need clarification, please do tell me so. I do love a good challenge, so here goes.... I started by trying to figure out when the students had class, it was quite difficult, considering that we really only see what classes Harry has, and they seem to change all the time. There are 12 teachers at Hogwarts that we know of - Professor Sprout (Herbology), Professor Flitwick (Charms), Professor McGonagoll (Transfiguration), Professor Snape (Potions), The Defense Against Dark Arts Professor, "Professor" Trelawney (Divination), Professor Sinistra (Astronomy), Professor Vector (Arithmancy), the Muggle Studies Professor, Professor Binns (History of Magic), the study of Ancient runes professor, and Hagrid ( Care of Magical Creatures). Also on the faculty are Madam Hooch (Flying), Madam Pomfry, and Madam Pince. And we can't forget Professor Dumbledore. That leaves us with 13 teachers who are qualifyed to teach... and one nurse and one librarian.. In CoS we find out that classes end at 6... then students are to report to their common rooms for the rest of the night... Im assuming that means that dinner is at 5, then too the common rooms, unless the students had to eat in their common rooms during this time, which is possible, they finish the halloween feast their in SS....But in GoF, the notice that they recieve about the foreign students arrival says that classes will dissmiss 30 min early to great the students before the 6:00 feast. Perhaps supper is at different times on different days. In PoA, we find out that classes begin at 9 am, Hermione has Divination, Muggle Studies, and Arithmancy. If classes begin at 9, and end at 6, with 1 hour for lunch... then they are getting approximatly 8 hours of class a day, which means 40 hours a week. Each teacher has time to teach 8 one hour class a day... But there are only 14 teachers, including Dumbledore and Madam Hooch, for 7 different levels, and 4 different classes per level. Granted, there are some classes, such as Herbology which is taken 3 times a week, with another House (SS 133, US edition). In SS Potions is only once a week (Friday Morning (pg. 135)) for the first years. ( Page 221, US edition) In CoS it is both Thursday Afternoon, and Wednesday Morning, for the 2nd years. In PoA, it seems as if they are back to just Double Potions once a week. Some of the classes seem to only teach one house at a time. Defense against the Dark Arts was only one house, and it seems like they have it at least twice a week, if not more as they get older. It just doesn't make any sense, and some days they have one double class before lunch, other days they have 3 classes before lunch, some times they have a double, then 2 classes... Im worried about all the teachers, except for the ones that only teach classes that are 3rd level and above. They seem to have a lighter course load then the rest. One thought is the Dumbledore teaches all 7th years, but that's probably going to be shot down in subsequent books... If he's such a great wizard, then why is he stuck in administration? Another Idea would be that the professors just teach part of the class, and then run next door and teach part of another class, leaving a teachers aid in charge, but that just doesn't seem to make any sense at all. One other option, besides the time turners... is that Ravenclaws are honor students... they have separate classes, and thats why they are never around... that would cut everyone's classes down by a 4th, except for Snape, seeing as he seems to be the only person around who knows how to make any kind of potion..... If anybody on the list likes logic problems, i have 4 for you... I have several clues as to when each class is for Harry's class, but no order to my notes, and im getting kind of sick of trying to figure this out.... I'll start with CoS. ( all page numbers are the US edition) Friday Mornings they have Herbology and Transfiguration. (pg. 197 US ) On the 1st day of classes they have db. Herbology w/ Hufflepuffs ( pg 91) then they go directly to Transfiguation ( pg 94). After Transfiguation, they have Lunch, then they go to Defense against the Dark Arts. (pg 98) Friday Mornings, Charms. (pg 104) Wednesday Mornings - Potions ( Pg 146) then lunch , then History of Magic ( pg 148) , then they go to their common rooms, then to dinner. on some random day, they have potions followed by Herbology, followed by DADA ( pg 269) they have DADA on Fridays. Potions with Slytherin - Thursday afternoon's. (pg 186) on Feb 14th, they have charms... Now, i don't know if it is possible at all to try and figure out any sort of usuable schedule from this, but if anybody wants to go ahead and try, go for it... Remember, this is just from CoS... i did the same thing with SS and PoA, GoF was just too long, and i didn't know it as well, seeing i haven't read it as many time. If you want the ones from SS or PoA, just email me at CPennyLane12 at yahoo.com One other thing that i noticed... In SS, they say that Astronomy is at Midnight on Wednesdays. (pg 133) - but later on pg 236, its a wednesday night, and the clock chimes midnight when ron climbes through the picture hole, and complains to harry about Norbert biting him. Now, does this mean that Harry and Ron were *Gasp* skipping Astronomy? I don't think so, because it was stated earlier something about everyone being in bed...Or does it mean that class schedules change from sememster to semester... I hope not, im confused enough as it is... Kassie aka Penny Lane... realizing that she needs a new hobby... From hpsmarty at aol.com Mon Sep 2 03:59:00 2002 From: hpsmarty at aol.com (hpsmarty) Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 03:59:00 -0000 Subject: The HP4GU Contest is back! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43476 Yes, it's back! The HP4GU Contest, also known as The Invitational, Magical, Exciting, Was-Weekly, All-Smarty's Tournament Extraordinaire! This contest was originally started to make HP4GU a more fun and exciting home, especially for those of us who have absolutely no lives outside of it. Then, well, I got busy, or something and there hasn't been a contest for almost a year. But now it's back, but with a few changes. There will no longer be a new contest every week, instead there will be TWO contests, run concurrently, every month. As before, there will be 3 types of contests: puzzles, creative contests, and speculative contests. Puzzles consist of crosswords and other word puzzles, anagrams, trivia questions, etc., so if you've written one of these please send it to me! Creative contests will consist of things like poetry-writing (more fun than you think, really!). Speculative contests will consist of asking people to theorize about an unknown aspect of the Harry Potter universe. Every month, there will be ONE puzzle contest, and ONE contest which is creative or speculative (or a combination of both). This contest is for fun only ? it is non-competitive, so there are no winners or losers (well, no winners anyway). Actually, there may be winners for some of the puzzle contests, and there may even be prizes, depending on the state of the HP4GU treasury. (But don't get your hopes up ? according to our treasurer, Mundungus Fletcher, the HP4GU vault at Gringott's has less gold in it than the Weasley's.) Some of the contests will be written or designed by me, but I am hoping that the rest of you will contribute puzzles or contest ideas as well. All contest ideas should be sent to the contest email address, which is hpsmarty at aol.com. [That's hpsmarty AT aol DOT com.] So don't forget to send those lists of trivia questions, word search puzzles, or other brilliant ideas to me at hpsmarty at aol.com. Also, any questions about the contest should be sent to me at the same address, and NOT posted to the list. The Rules are posted below, and will be repeated each time a new contest is posted. I will also file the rules in our files section, along with a new contest archives (space permitting). If you want to look at some of the old contests, there is a directory of them in the files section. The first contest will be posted soon after this announcement. 1. Contest responses should be sent by email to the contest email address, which is hpsmarty at aol.com. RESPONSES SHOULD NOT BE POSTED TO THE LIST. Anyone posting responses, especially puzzle answers, to the list will be disqualified from participation in that contest, sent a howler, turned into a toad, sent to Azkaban, AND forced to eat bubotuber pus. SO DON'T POST RESPONSES TO THE LIST. 2. Contests will be posted at the beginning of each month. Responses should be sent by email to hpsmarty at aol.com by midnight EST on the last day of each month. For puzzle contests, both the correct answers and a list of everyone who submitted a correct solution by the deadline will be posted during the first week of the next month. For creative and speculative contests, all responses will be posted, although I might just post a random sampling if there are a real lot of responses to a particular contest. 3. If you have any questions, comment, observations, or complaints about the contest, please email me directly at hpsmarty at aol.com. DO NOT POST TO THE LIST about the contest. Please, the list is crowded enough already. 4. ANSWERS SHOULD NOT BE POSTED TO THE LIST. I know this is also rule # 1, but I can not stress it enough. ? Joywitch M. Curmudgeon From hpsmarty at aol.com Mon Sep 2 04:05:40 2002 From: hpsmarty at aol.com (hpsmarty) Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 04:05:40 -0000 Subject: HP4GU Contest -- September creative contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43477 Here is the September creative/speculative contest. Stay tuned for the puzzle contest, and feel free to contribute to both. This contest is speculative. In fact it's very, very speculative. It will also require some creativity. The object is to come up with the most outrageous, outlandish, off-the-wall ship ? that is, possible romantic relationship ? among two characters in the HP books. The things is, you have to come up with ACTUAL, DIRECT evidence from the books to support your ship. This contest is inspired by Cindy C. (aka Sin DC or The Strawberry Moderator Tart), who came up with the following idea as a defense against an overwhelming number of shipping posts: >I have decided to defect to the shippers and hereby >propose my own theory about who Hermione will wind up with *when she >is of legal age*: >::drumroll:: >Mad-Eye Moody! >It is *so* obvious, once you think of it. The evidence: >1. When Hermione first sees Moody, she is repulsed: "What happened >to him? . . . What happened to his *face*?" she says. Meanwhile, >Moody is "totally indifferent" to his lukewarm welcome in the Great >Hall. That is always what happens in a good romance: shock, >followed by an irresistible impulse to get to know the other person >better, which of course is not immediately shared. >2. The man impresses the woman with emasculating her enemy: Moody >turns Draco into a ferret. How can Hermione fail to notice Moody now? >3. Moody demonstrates his power: He overpowers, tortures and kills >spiders right in front of Hermione. Hermione starts to appreciate >the "bad boy" side of Moody. He only stops torturing the spider when >Hermione tells him to stop, showing how she can bend him to her will. >4. Romantic tension: Hermione objects to having students placed >under the Imperius Curse. Moody shows her the door. She >submits: "Hermione went very pink and muttered something about not >wanting to leave." Tell me her knees weren't weak as she sank back >into her seat. >5. Moody finally falls for Hermione: "Moody's magical eye quivered >as it rested on Hermione. 'You're another one who might think about >a career as an Auror,' he told her. 'Mind works the right way, >Granger.' Hermione flushed pink with pleasure." Roll the credits! >It all fits. Moody is missing a number of teeth, and Hermione's >parents are dentists. It is simply meant to be. OK, you got it? Send me a description of the strangest ship you can think up, and back it up with canon evidence. And don't forget: DON'T POST CONTEST RESPONSES TO THE LIST. Send them to me at hpsmarty at aol.com (That's hpsmarty AT aol DOT com.) ?Joywitch M. Curmudgeon From hpsmarty at aol.com Mon Sep 2 04:13:35 2002 From: hpsmarty at aol.com (hpsmarty) Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 04:13:35 -0000 Subject: HP4GU Contest -- September Puzzle Contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43478 Here's this month's puzzle contest. This contest is one of my favorite games, which is known by several different names including CATEGORIES. In this game, you have several words and five different categories and you have to find words or phrases which begin with each letter of each word. The categories are People, Places, Things, Beings and Terms, and you have three words to work with ? LUPIN, BLACK, and HAGRID. To play the game first pick one of the three words ? LUPIN, BLACK, or HAGRID. Then find something from the Harry Potter books (including FB and QTTA) which corresponds to each category. For example, if you pick LUPIN, you must find a person, place, thing, being and term which starts with each of the letters L, U, P, I and N, for a total of 25 words or phrases. The definitions of the five categories are as follows: "People" is the first OR last name of a HUMAN (includes those who are only part human) character in any of the HP books (including QTTA and FB) . Only humans, so "Harry" or "Potter" is acceptable but "Binns" and "Dobby" are not. "Places" is the name of any place mentioned, in any capacity, in the HP books, for example "Japan" (mentioned in QTTA) or "Dumbledore's Office." It must be a specific place, not a generic term like "room" or "station." "Things" is any magical object mentioned in the HP books, including titles of books, and names of specific magical items such as potions or plants. It must be something that you can touch, and it must be MAGICAL. "Beings" includes both names and types of any non-human beings or creatures mentioned in the HP books. "Peruvian Vipertooth", "Vipertooth", "Norbert", and "dragon" are all acceptable. "Terms" includes anything MAGICAL that doesn't fit into the above 4 categories, including spells, MoM departments and jobs, Hogwarts classes, and languages. Scoring is as follows: You get 2 points for each category in which you are the ONLY one to have that word or phrase. One point is subtracted from your score for any categories you leave blank. Here's an example, using the word SNAPE. Suppose there were only two entries, from two smart listmembers, Smellydog11 and Harrysbimbo, as shown below. Smellydog11 left 3 categories blank and Harrysbimbo left 5 categories blank, so they receive minus 3 and minus 5 points, respectively. Neither one gets credit for Scabbers, Nimbus, Norbert, NEWT, Azkaban, Ernie, Eeylops, or Elves because these words were on both lists. Smellydog11 gets 28 points for her remaining categories, minus 3 for the blanks, for a total of 25 points. Harrysbimbo gets 24 points minus 5 points for a total of 19 points. Entry 1 ? Smellydog11 Person Place Things Beings Terms S Snape Shrieking Sorting Scabbers Seeker Shack Hat N Neville ? Nimbus Norbert NEWT A Albus Azkaban Armadillo ? Astronomy Bile P Peter ? Prefects Puffskein Parselmouth Who Gained Power E Ernie Eeylops Every Elves Erised Owl Flavor Emporium Beans Entry 2 ? Harrysbimbo Person Place Things Beings Terms S Slytherin Slytherin Standard Scabbers Squib Common Book of Room Spells N Newt ? Nimbus Norbert NEWT A Aberforth Azkaban ? ? Accio P Pettigrew ? Polyjuice Peeves Parseltongue Potion E Ernie Eeylops ? Elves Exploding Snap Owl Emporium A few notes: 1. You can enter up to THREE times, with each of the three words (Lupin, Black and Hagrid) but only one entry per name is allowed. 2. You only get points if you are the only one to come up with a particular word or phrase, so the more obscure the better. On the other hand, maybe no one will choose words like "Harry" or "Hermione" because they are so obvious. Hmmmm. 3. I can assure you that there are at least 2 possible entries for each of the 80 possible combinations, and many, many more for most of them. 4. Don't post your answers to the list! Email them to me at hpsmarty at aol.com. That's hpsmarty AT aol DOT com. ?Joywitch M. Curmudgeon From grega126 at aol.com Mon Sep 2 06:20:48 2002 From: grega126 at aol.com (greg_a126) Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 06:20:48 -0000 Subject: Trewlawney's Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43479 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "smellee17" wrote: > Hello all. New to the group and hoping this hasn't been discussed > to death already. I think Professor Trewlaneys one and only other > true predicton was about Harry being the one to take down Voldemort. > Voldemort, upon hearing this, decides to go kill harry while he is > a baby . In a greek tragedy self-fullfiling prophesy sort of way, > Voldemort loses all his power. Maybe the reason he would have > spared Lily Potter. She was unimportant at the moment becuase he was > there for Harry. However, he didnt die so maybe Harry will get him > later. Just a theory. Smellee17 Yeah, there are basically 2 competing theories. One is the self fulfilling prophecy angle. The 2nd is that Harry's the descendant of Gryffindor, & the descendant of Slytherin (Voldemort) is out to kill him. I've always been a fan of the 2nd option. My main point has always been that there has to be something special about Harry that in addition to his mother's love, allowed him to survive the Killing Curse. Unless the Killing Curse is a completely new innovation, I refuse to believe that no mother before jumped in front of it for her son, no husband for his wife, no girlfriend for her boyfriend when the curse was fired by a jealous ex-lover. Muggles have been jumping in front of bullets (the Muggle equivalent to a certain extent, not as deadly but certainly deadly enough) for each other for years. Has no wizard ever done the same for the Killing Curse? Greg From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Sep 2 07:19:09 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (bboy_mn) Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 07:19:09 -0000 Subject: Harry and the Phoenix - Wild Prediction In-Reply-To: <003101c2521e$68615160$149ccdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43480 Wild insane speculation - totally unfounded but interesting none the less. Please read post 43471 and 43473 ('Harry and the Pheomix') for an intersting discussion of how Harry might be related to Gryffindor and have characteristics of a pheonix. Which leads too....... My Wild Insane Prediction for the End of the Story- So Dumbledore dies and transfers the internal and external magical 'gifts' of Gryffindor to Harry. Harry goes to battle Voldemort. In the battle, Voldemort kills Harry which leads to Voldemort's own final and complete death. Harry's body BURST into flame and is reduced to ashes. Among the ashes is found a very cute dark haired, green eyed baby boy with a 'Z' shaped scar on his forehead. The soon to be married Hermione and Ron take the baby and raise him as their very own, thereby allowing Harry Potter one more chance to live. The End HEEEEEEYYYY!!! It could happen. bboy_mn From eloiseherisson at aol.com Mon Sep 2 07:22:55 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 03:22:55 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and the Phoenix Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43481 Richelle: > Now, theoretically, suppose Godric Gryffindor (approximately 1,000 years > ago, right?) had two children. Child A and child B. A and B both marry, > have children, etc. Their children have children. And so on, over a > thousand years. Quite possibly both descendents of children A and B could > be heirs of Gryffindor and scarcely be related at all. Now, suppose that > Dumbledore is a descendent of child A. Suppose Harry is a descendent of > child B. They are both then descended from Godric Gryffindor. As would > many others be. But what makes one person THE Heir of Gryffindor? Blood? > Or choices? By blood, many, many witches or wizards could be heirs of > Gryffindor, after a thousand years. Eloise: Only if you take 'descendent' and 'heir' to be synonymous. By blood, yes, logically there must be many descendents (this is what makes Dumbledore's statement that Vodemort is Slytherin's last remaining descendent so problematic), but in any generation, there is normally only one 'heir', in the sense of the person inheriting the legator's position, or role. Otherwise, we'd have multiple monarchs, wouldn't we, although thousands of people tracing their family back far enough will find a link to the Royal Family somewhere. Richelle: (Unless, of course, Godric Gryffindor had only one child and each child after that > had only one child, which is doubtful after a thousand years). Eloise: Which is the only way I can explain the 'last remaining descendent of Slytherin' thing. Richelle: Now, here is where I think the choices one makes comes into play. Rather than > their being only one heir, after a thousand years, I believe the Heir > is chosen. They must have the bloodline of Godric Gryffindor, but also > make the right choices in life. Harry, for example, started making choices > as soon as he got on the train at King's Cross. One example being "I think > I can tell who the wrong sort are for myself, thanks." Another, Harry's > desperate plea with the sorting hat "Not Slytherin." So that's where I > think the separation occurs. The choices one makes in life thus determines > whether the *descendent* of Godric Gryffindor will be chosen as the *heir* > of Godric Gryffindor. I think (I know, not many agree here) that > Dumbledore is the heir of Gryffindor and when he is gone, Harry will be > "the chosen one." I think Fawkes is the symbolism for who is chosen. > Right now, he is with Dumbledore. However, he's quite friendly with Harry. > Sitting on his knee and all that. Healing him, singing, etc. Now, I > admit in the chamber of secrets if Fawkes *hadn't* healed Harry he'd be > dead, but in Dumbledore's office in GoF it wasn't totally necessary. > Fawkes was being nice, he likes Harry . Eloise: But I like the idea that Harry is the 'chosen one'. We don't have to assume that in the WW, heirship is conferrred in the same way as in our culture. When I was writing my previous paragraph about inheritance, I thought about the Anglo-Saxons, who didn't operate under the laws of primogeniture with which we are familiar. Under their property inheritance laws, the deceased's estate was split equally between the offspring, thus getting smaller and smaller with each generation. When it came to the inheritance of rank, or 'kingship', a new leader would be chosen from within the deceased's offspring, family or even, sometimes from outside the family. It is therefore a system in operation at the time of Gryffindor himself. I am not suggesting that Gryffindor's heir could be chosen by ballot, but I am uncomfortable with the idea of Harry triumphing because of his *blood* alone, which often seems to be implicit in the Gryffindor's heir argument and which seems to be out of kilter with the explicitly stated 'choices' theme. This, of course is not Voldemort's view. His descent from Slytherin through his mother seems to be crucial to his understanding of his role a Slytherin's heir. Yet no-one,as far as we know, until Riddle opened the Chamber despite the number of other descendents there must have been, so perhaps even here there is an element of choice in who is acknowledged as heir (by what authority, I don't know). Perhaps Fawkes *is* the agent by whom the heirship is indicated. You know, we went through a whole load of Christian parallels when we were exploring the Stoned!Harry thread. Whether or not the series is a Christian allegory (I'm not arguing that), there does seem to be a lort of borrowed imagery. Taking your theory, it makes the scene in the Chamber of Secrets reminiscent of Christ's baptism, Fawkes descending with Gryffindor's hat and sword paralleling the descent of the Holy Spirit as a dove and the voice saying 'This is my beloved son, with whom I am well pleased'. Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pen at pensnest.co.uk Mon Sep 2 09:43:00 2002 From: pen at pensnest.co.uk (Pen Robinson) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 10:43:00 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] questions re: final exams In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5E6468AE-BE58-11D6-9553-0030654DED6A@pensnest.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 43482 On Sunday, September 1, 2002, at 03:08 , dmwang9 wrote: > > Two questions: > > 1. Is one hour long enough for a final exam? Perhaps the British model > is > different from the American one, but in my experience, finals tend to > last a > bit longer, from 1.5 to 3 hours at least. I think 'finals' is probably the wrong word for these exams, which may make the explanation easier... End-of-year exams in English schools (I don't know details of Scottish ones, but Hogwarts seems to me to be based on English schools anyway) are only *important* exams when they are the public exams taken nationally. In the Muggle world, GCSEs (at age 16 - ie OWLs) and A-Levels (at 18 - NEWTs). (These days, complicated by the addition of AS-Levels at age 17, but JKR doesn't seem to worry about them so neither shall I.) Other end-of-year exams are simply ways for teachers to assess how much you've learned during the year, and to get the pupils used to taking exams. So the teacher for each subject is free to set exams of whatever kind, or length, they choose. > > 2. What exactly do the students do on campus between the end of finals > and > their departure from school? I teach at an American boarding school, > and once > students finish finals at the end of the year, they leave campus right > away -- > mostly to prevent excessive end-of-year mischief. Once again, perhaps > British > schools have a different policy. > Um. Well, loaf a bit, first of all. It depended on age - the more junior pupils had a more regimented time. But lessons did tend to resume, albeit rather casually - we might play bingo in French, or something like that, depending on the teacher. (Of course, the first-year Sixth Formers still had actual work, as they were only half-way through a two-year course.) As I recall, though, the non-public exam results usually came back to us before the end of term, and quite often the lessons would consist of going through the papers to see what the answers should have been. (Public exams would be marked outside the school - wonder what happens with OWLs and NEWTs? Are they assessed by outside markers? Hmm.) There might also be sports competitions, or students might be involved in end-of-term concerts or plays. My children's school has 'Trips Weekend' when vast numbers of the kids go off to France or Holland for a long weekend. At my boarding school, students did not leave before the official Last Day Of Term. Funnily enough, the word 'campus' seems odd to me, in connection with a school. It's a word I associate only with universities, and not all universities, at that. Pen From skelkins at attbi.com Mon Sep 2 09:57:07 2002 From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882) Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 09:57:07 -0000 Subject: Whatever will become of the Marauder's Map? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43483 Jeff wrote: > Remember, Dumbledore, who now, presumably, has the map, is the same > person who gave James' invisibility cloak to Harry. Dumbledore knew > how much trouble James and friends caused with that cloak. Why > would he give it to Harry? Now, why wouldn't he return the > Marauder's Map? :) Olivia responded: > Because the map is illegal and dangerous. Very much like the unauthorized use of a time-turner is both illegal and dangerous? Yet Dumbledore encourages just that at the end of PoA. > Because Harry gave the map to Barty Jr. and he used it to know when > his father arrived at Hogwarts and was able to kill him before he > got to Dumbledore. If the map fell into the wrong hands again > anything could happen. Like Dumbledore's death or an attack on > Hogwarts. If the Philosopher's Stone had fallen into the wrong hands it would have been equally disastrous, if not even more so. And yet Dumbledore has the Stone removed to Hogwarts and then guarded by a series of obstacles that even a heroic bunch of eleven year olds can manage to circumvent. Harry himself suggests at the end of PS/SS that Dumbledore did this on purpose, and I think that as readers, we tend to believe him. > I think the Map would be considered contraband like the various > practical jokes and gags of the Weasley twins. I think the Map will > show up again though, but I don't think anyone will return it to > Harry on the grounds that it was his father's. Oh, I don't know. I think that Dumbledore might. But I don't think that it will necessarily do Harry all that much good. Harry is growing up, and I tend to read GoF, the middle book of the series, as his transition into adolescence. In GoF, all of the legacy items left to Harry by his parents lose their power to protect him. His father's Invisibility Cloak can no longer help him: his enemy, Crouch!Moody, can see right through it. The Marauder's Map can no longer help him; in fact, it leads him astray: by causing him to believe that Crouch Sr is on the Hogwarts campus, it sends him chasing after a red herring, and as Olivia pointed out, it also lends aid to his hidden enemy. And of course, by the end of the novel, even the physical protection of Lily's original sacrifice has been stripped from him. Harry's parents' spirits may emerge from Voldemort's wand during the Priori Incantatem in the graveyard, but all they can really do for him is buy him time. There is no maternal love-shield to protect him, as there is in the endgame of PS/SS. Father figure Dumbledore's Gryffindor relics do not drop from the sky to lend him aid. His paternal patronus cannot appear to chase away the dementors. In the endgame of GoF, during his mad dash for Cedric's body, Harry is alone as he has never been at the end of any of the preceding novels. He is profoundly unprotected, and it is that fact that makes the diversion he chooses to take in order to run for Cedric's body, rather than for the Portkey, for me the most stunningly heroic moment in the entire series. "'When the connection is broken, we will linger for only moments...'" Harry may well get the Map back. I hope that he will; I like the Map. But I don't believe that it will help him all that much. And I don't believe that we will be seeing many more ghost-like representations of Harry's parents in the future canon. No more Mirrors of Erised. No more Dementor visions. No more Priori Incantatem spirits. >From here on out, I think that Harry is going to have to deal with the *reality* of his parents, of who they actually were: the real people, rather than the shadows of fear and desire and longing and sorrow and legacy, the lingering protections of childhood. And that is *my* prediction for Book Five. Childhood is over. -- Elkins From naama2486 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 2 10:28:30 2002 From: naama2486 at yahoo.com (naama2486) Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 10:28:30 -0000 Subject: Death Eater Baby Boom In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43484 Replying Catlady: If I stole (damn, that's a harsh word) you're idea, sorry, I didn't mean to. Cross my heart - I thought of it all myself. Just remember, great minds think alike... :-) Catlady wrote: > << My theory is that Voldemort believes in Prophecies and > Divination, > and he discovered that it was written in the stars (or whatever) > that > a boy in Britain conceived around Halloween 1979 and born around > Lammas 1980 would have exceptional magic powers. He wanted this > boy's powers to be a weapon he could use AND he wanted to make sure > that this boy's powers would not become a weapon for the Light > Side. > He figured that the way to do that was for the boy to be born and > raised among his loyal followers. So he ordered his Death Eaters to > go out and spawn at the appointed time, and they obeyed, but none > of > their children were the Prophesied Boy: HARRY, of course, was the > Prophesied Boy. I like that one. (In danger of writing things that were posted before)- do you think this could be *the* prophecy Dumbledore talks about? If so, how the hell did he find out about it? I don't think they could have ever met, could they? And here's how I connect this with my theory- could Voldemort have known the Potters' son is the appointed one, and the "go reproduce" order was set against Harry in the first place? Could they be an insurance to Voldemort? Making sure the DE would have children, so he could threaten them in case of disloyalty or lack of faith? Just some thoughts... > Hi, NAAMA the new! (A concept that surprised me until I remembered > that listie Naama Gata is not the only Naama in the world.) I liked that too. Naama the New, who knows only too well that there are many Naamas in the world, having two cousins and a good friend by the same name... ;-) P.S. Who's Naama Gata? From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Mon Sep 2 12:13:52 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (grey_wolf_c) Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 12:13:52 -0000 Subject: Death Eater Baby Boom In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43485 Catlady wrote: > > > << My theory is that Voldemort believes in Prophecies and > > Divination, and he discovered that it was written in the stars (or > > whatever) that > > a boy in Britain conceived around Halloween 1979 and born around > > Lammas 1980 would have exceptional magic powers. Naama the new answered: > I like that one. (In danger of writing things that were posted > before)- do you think this could be *the* prophecy Dumbledore talks > about? If so, how the hell did he find out about it? I don't think > they could have ever met, could they? They HAVE met, Naama. After all, LV was human once. He was called Riddle, and he studied under Dumbledore. The question is not how Dumbledore heard of the prophecy, but how Voldemort heard it. Since the person normally involved in prophecies is Trelawny, and Dumbledore's comment of "bringing the total of real prophecies to two", most believers in prophesy-based theories normally think that it was Trelawny the one who made the prophecy to start with. Dumbledore, always an impotant teacher, would've herad about it. How did Riddle know, then? Well, maybe the prophecy was spoken to him (just as it was spoken to Harry 50+ years later). > And here's how I connect this with my theory- could Voldemort have > known the Potters' son is the appointed one, and the "go reproduce" > order was set against Harry in the first place? I don't understand how you tie them, Naama. Could you please elaborate? How can an order to reproduce be against Harry? > Could they be an insurance to Voldemort? Making sure the DE would > have children, so he could threaten them in case of disloyalty or > lack of faith? This I find hard to believe, although I supose it could be possible. The problem is that it has two flaws I can see (although maybe they aren't so). First one, people who join the DEs are normally egoistic and egocentric (as weel as evil and cruel, of course). None of this qualities allow for manipulation through others, but are easily manipulated by threatening the person itself. What I mean is that Voldemort would get a more receptie audience if he just threatened with Imperious, Crucius and AKs to his DEs than by threatening children they didn't want to have in the first place (if he really ordered them to have them). The second point is that Voldemort doesn't understand love, so he wouldn't be able to understand that a parent would bend to his will if he threatened his offspring. Voldemort only seems to know of his father's treatment to him, and I don't think he's capable of understanding the love that bonds a parent to his sons and daughters. And if he cannot understand it, he cannot use it. > > Hi, NAAMA the new! (A concept that surprised me until I remembered > > that listie Naama Gata is not the only Naama in the world.) > > I liked that too. > > Naama the New, > who knows only too well that there are many Naamas in the world, > having two cousins and a good friend by the same name... ;-) > > P.S. > > Who's Naama Gata? He's (She's? Sorry, gender recognition in foreign names is not my strong) a list-member that used to post until a few months ago. I, like Catlady, at first thought you were him/her. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From muj at hem.utfors.se Mon Sep 2 15:35:20 2002 From: muj at hem.utfors.se (MariaJ) Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 17:35:20 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizarding culture/ attitude to arms In-Reply-To: <46.2cf736ae.2aa3de76@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43486 Eloise wrote: > You are far too modest. You express yourself extremely well. Thank you. /blushing furiously/ > I think it *is* intentional and I get the feeling that there are aspects of > the Tough, macho wizard mentality that JKR doesn't like. It's too linked up > with that proper wizarding pride thing which is criticised at the end of GoF. (snip) > I'm pretty sure that part of Harry's coming to full maturity as a wizard and > as a man will involve his acceptance of the fact that he *can* cry, that > being fully human and admitting his vulnerability does not make him any less > strong or any less of a wizard. I hope we're going to see the WW beginning to > realise the same thing. I hope you're right. I feel that by Book 7 what we'll see is a realisation that some of the more flagrant injustices in the WW is wrong. The House Elfs will be liberated. People like Hagrid and Lupin will contribute to the Second Fall of Voldemort and prove that outcasts like them can be heroic etc. The kind of changes you're talking about though (the Tough, macho wizard mentality isn't a good thing, wizards can say sorry, crying is ok and so on) - that's changing the whole society at its roots. Changes like that don't come easy and they take time. Generations. Considering wizards and witches live much longer than muggles do, it'll probably take even longer for the attitudes to die out. I'm not so sure we'll see any of *that* by Book 7. Eloise again, on an entirely different subject: > Which begs the question, doesn't it, of at what stage a wand becomes an > offensive weapon. At what point is a curse a curse too far? Let's muddy the waters even more. :) Harry uses the Furnunculus curse and George Jelly-Legs (the only two jinxes named) on the train at the end of GoF. Both seem to be fairly harmless (boils and jelly legs), so is it the fact that they're five against three that makes this incident seem much worse than the other times Furnunculus and Jelly-Legs are used? Not to mention all the duelling. In CoS Harry and Draco face each other under "safe" circumstances and although it all goes horribly wrong with the snake, no one is saying the duelling is Wrong. The other time Harry uses the Furnunculus curse (GoF18), when Goyle gets boils in his face and Hermione's teeth grow, Snape giving Harry detention isn't unfair because he's giving Harry detention (they're not allowed to do magic in the corridors) but because Draco doesn't get detention also. So in one instance throwing curses at each other is Right and the other time it's Wrong. The second time the wand is clearly a weapon and it's used as such, the first time it's a... what? A duelling wand? And what's the difference? And (ooo, I came up with another one) is there a difference depending on how good or bad the wizard/witch is at wand-magic? Harry seems to be fairly good at Charms, while Neville isn't. Does that make Harry's wand more of a weapon than Neville's wand? Which didn't actually answer your question, Eloise. Sorry. Carol Bainbridge wrote: > I don't see how the wizarding world is and more or less messed up than the > Muggle world -- our world, that we live in now. I see the same kinds of > attitudes toward different groups of people all the time. I agree with you and I never said the wizarding world was more messed up than our world. If you got that impression I'm sorry, that's not what I meant. The real world and the wizarding world are both messed up, sometimes in the very same way (all the things you mentioned), sometimes not. And I think the attitude towards bullying would be one of those 'sometimes not'. Here in Sweden most schools have some sort of plan about how to deal with bullying (I even think there's to be a law that they have to have such a plan, but I'm not entirely sure). Whether these plans actually work is an entirely different matter (there's been a lot of horrific cases here the last years with children and teenagers going up against their schools, reporting bullies, or maybe I should say attackers because we're talking assault here, to the police, taking their schools to court and lots of bone-headed principals who dismiss everything as children playing a little rough, but they're *children* and they mean no harm...), but at least these plans exist. I don't think Hogwarts has one of these plans though, or Beauxbatons or Durmstrang (definitely not Durmstrang) and I seriously doubt they would understand what the use of a plan like that was. Bullying exists in the real world as well as the wizarding world - in fact, I'd say that at this stage Draco or Snape at their very worst haven't come even close to some of the stories told on this list (by Elkins and Shaun I think - sorry if I remember wrong) or what those children I mentioned above had to go through. It's just that, even those bone-headed principals admitted that bullying existed (they just didn't want to admit it existed at their school), but I'm not so sure even Dumbledore, that most enlightened of muggle-lovers (no sarcasm intended), would see the need for A Plan Against Bullying. The realisation that something is wrong doesn't in any way make it all better (if it did there would be no bullying at Swedish schools), but it's better than nothing. It's the first step. What I'm trying to say (and I'm not sure I'm succeeding) is that I'm not sure the wizarding world has taken that first step, and actually the bullying is a small problem compared with the House Elfs, the Justice System, the attitude towards muggles etc, and they don't seem to see anything wrong with that. Um, okay, stepping down from the pulpit now. Sorry, I didn't mean to direct that rant at you, Carol. To get back to what you actually wrote, no, I don't think the wizarding world is more messed up than our world. Just, in some cases, differently messed up. There's a lot of problems that are the same in both worlds, but the extent to which those problems are recognised as problems differ a lot. Imho. Carol again: > JKR has said that she believes her books are like mirrors. They reflect > the beliefs of the reader. She said this in response to the criticism that > her books were evil, but I think it can go beyond that. I think her books > are definitely like mirrors, reflecting our world. What I like so much > about them is that in spite of all the unfairness, injustice and downright > cruelty, it is still the positive qualities of life that wins out in the > end: courage, friendship, love, loyalty, responsibility, innocence. It may > not work so easily in the real world, but it sure feels good to me when it > works in the HP books! All those things (courage, friendship etc) is one of the reasons I love the HP-books and re-read them on a regular basis. Reading about Harry finding a Home at Hogwarts (because I think Harry thinks of Hogwarts as Home with a capital H) and making friends, makes me all weepy and happy. I love Ron and Hermione, and I love that they're friends with Harry. I adore the Weasleys, all of them, even the ones that annoy me, and I love to hate Snape (I do not, however, find him sexy). However, this is no way makes me feel any less uncomfortable about the more unpleasant aspects of the wizarding world. That I do feel uncomfortable even makes the books *better* for me. Let me be honest: if JKR had written PS/SS and CoS and then stopped writing I would have read them, laughed a lot, and that would have been it. It's when I read PoA and especially GoF, when she started to dig below the surface, show us the rest of the society, introduce us to the injustices and wrongs of the WW, that I decided that JKR was a much better author than I had given her credit for after reading the first two books. She makes me happy and sad and angry and uncomfortable and occasionally full of warm, fuzzy feelings that I can't put a name to (aaah, Harry is going to live with Sirius, how sweet) - all at the same time. That, in my opinion, is what makes her great. In other words (and, yes, I know I'm strange) when I say I think the wizarding world is seriously messed up, that's not meant as a criticism of the HP-books. It's a compliment. Rebecca said: > I don't want the Muggle and Wizard world to be united, > I just want some Muggles involved. Let Hermione's > parents, or Collin Creevy's dad help, or at least be > involved. And yes, I understand that they have > innocuous professions. Let it be other kid's parents, > let it be cops or military. Just let some Muggles be > involved in the downfall of Voldemort. Let me go off on a different tangent: Voldemort is supposed to be this big threat, right? He's not out to destroy the world or anything like that, but he does want to take over. Or something. I have to admit I'm a bit hazy on what Voldemort actually wants, except kill Harry, harass muggles and, eh, humiliate his Death Eaters. Now, if his objective really is to take over the world (i.e. Britain) then sooner or later muggles will become aware of this. It's not as if the Good Guys can run around making Memory Charms on everyone who's seen something, then they won't have any time to actually fight against Voldemort, which has to be the top priority after all. Of course, it all depends on what Voldemort actually wants. Or rather, how far JKR is going to let it go. She may write Voldemort as if he wants to take over the world, that doesn't mean it's ever going to be an outright war, but only skirmishes between wizards and a final duel between Voldemort and Harry. Then muggles would never have to find out. See how nicely I destroy my own arguments. :) MariaJ From kaityf at jorsm.com Mon Sep 2 16:27:16 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 11:27:16 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizard World (was Why I Dislike The Twins/Toon Talk . . .harsh WW) Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020902112616.04613c20@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> No: HPFGUIDX 43487 >--- I, Carol Bainbridge , wrote: > > > > If JKR wants to unite the wizard and Muggle worlds in the end, I suppose > > she could, but I'd see that as another rather cheap plot twist. It's too > > "happy-ever-after," too perfect and too pat, which is not what I'd expect > > from JKR. Rebecca answered: >I don't want the Muggle and Wizard world to be united, I just want some >Muggles involved. Let Hermione's parents, or Collin Creevy's dad help, or >at least be >involved. And yes, I understand that they have innocuous >professions. Let it be other >kid's parents, let it be cops or military. Just let some Muggles be >involved in the >downfall of Voldemort. Sorry if I misunderstood you, but it did sound like you meant Muggles in general, which made me think of a unity of the two groups, at least in the battle to defeat Voldemort. It does make a lot more sense to think that the parents of "mudbloods" would help in the fight against Voldemort. They already know all about magic and Hogwarts, so there would be no problem there. I'm just not too sure what a Muggle could do against a dark wizard as powerful as Voldemort, not to mention his followers. After all, even most wizards didn't have much of a chance against him. Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From nightngle at yahoo.com Mon Sep 2 16:35:26 2002 From: nightngle at yahoo.com (nightngle) Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 16:35:26 -0000 Subject: Harry and the Phoenix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43488 > > Perhaps Fawkes *is* the agent by whom the heirship is indicated. > You know, we went through a whole load of Christian parallels when we were > exploring the Stoned!Harry thread. Whether or not the series is a Christian > allegory (I'm not arguing that), there does seem to be a lort of borrowed > imagery. Taking your theory, it makes the scene in the Chamber of Secrets > reminiscent of Christ's baptism, Fawkes descending with Gryffindor's hat and > sword paralleling the descent of the Holy Spirit as a dove and the voice > saying 'This is my beloved son, with whom I am well pleased'. > > Eloise Eloise, Excellent comparision. Blood continues to be an important symbol throughout the series, too - in both scarey, bad ways as well as good ways. Harry's blood being the life-giving force for Voldemort of, I think, special importance. I think it's important to continue to follow the symbolism here. Both the phoenix and the snake are powerful symbols of rebirth. There is a promise from JKR that a death will occur that will be very hard for her to write, and the death predictions about Harry. Blood, tears, and rebirth are the symbols I'm going to trace as I re-read the series again. A death and resurection has already happened with Tom Riddle/Voldemort - it seems logical that one will happen on the good side as well. Nightengale Murphy From hollydaze at btinternet.com Mon Sep 2 16:16:56 2002 From: hollydaze at btinternet.com (Hollydaze) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 17:16:56 +0100 Subject: Boggarts affects on Lupin and Harry Message-ID: <07db01c252ac$8a249120$e477073e@j0dhe> No: HPFGUIDX 43489 OK I again want to apologise for bringing up topics from ages ago (although this seems like a re-occurring favourite like Snape and S Vs S) but I am still getting through those 7000 odd emails! Basically this is in reply to all those questions about why the Boggart Dementor affects Harry but Boggart Moon does not affect Lupin. I was wondering if it could perhaps be because, as the boggart is a shape shifter, when it turns into something it actually becomes that object or thing and therefore gains the powers of the thing it turns into (now stay with me I know your going to say "so why doesn't the moon affect Lupin). Well basically a Dementor (from what I remember when we are first told about them) is taller than a human being but still fits in a room, garden, field or wherever it may be standing, the same for all the other "fears" the children seem to have. Because of this the boggart can actually *turn into* the fear (whether it be Dementor or Giant Spider or Banshee) and because it can actually turn into that fear it can also gain the powers of that fear and therefore affect whoever casts it (or perhaps even everything and everyone around it - this explains the dimming of the candles in the practise room) The moon however is MUCH MUCH bigger, if the boggart were to turn into a real moon then it would partly destroy the planet (rather worrying idea) so therefore the boggart can't actually turn into the/a moon, it can only become an image or picture of the moon. This means it is not an actual full moon and therefore doesn't have the same power that the real full moon would have on Lupin because an image or picture of something never has the same powers/qualities or whatever that a *real* one of those would have (much like you can't drive a picture of a car, and an image of a lion can't attack you). Perhaps the same thing happens with other things of magical power that are too big to fit into wherever the boggart is being tackled, we don't know because we haven't seen any others that are too big that *should* affect someone in some way. I'm betting there is a really big problem with this idea that I haven't spotted so please be kind and point it out to me, it would be appreciated. HOLLYDAZE!!! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rvotaw at i-55.com Mon Sep 2 18:46:56 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 13:46:56 -0500 Subject: Potter's choice of a secret keeper Message-ID: <004701c252b1$215801e0$bea2cdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 43490 I was rereading the Three Broomsticks scene in PoA, and noticed something I hadn't thought about before. McGonagall says that Dumbledore himself offered to be the Potter's secret keeper. Why not accept such an offer? He was the only one Voldemort feared, it seems logical. Why choose someone like Peter Pettigrew instead? Surely if Voldemort had gone after him (even if he hadn't already been feeding him information) he would have been easier to pry the information out of. Compared to Dumbledore certainly. I also think poor Lupin got a bad rap in the whole thing. His supposed best friends suspected him on what basis? Being a werewolf? How prejudiced. Anyway, my main concerns here are *why* James and Lily didn't agree to let Dumbledore be their secret keeper. Anyone have an answer for me? Or two or three? :) Richelle ------------------------------------ Richelle R. Votaw 1st grade teacher Kentwood Elementary ------------------------------------ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From alina at distantplace.net Mon Sep 2 18:52:05 2002 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 14:52:05 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Potter's choice of a secret keeper References: <004701c252b1$215801e0$bea2cdd1@istu757> Message-ID: <008901c252b1$d5c8f080$4a112b18@shprd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43491 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richelle Votaw" > Anyway, my main concerns here are *why* James and Lily didn't agree to let Dumbledore be their secret keeper. Anyone have an answer for me? Or two or three? :) > > Richelle Well, I have a couple of theories. One is that perhaps Dumbledore isn't as powerful as we're led to think and Lilly and James knew this. Or maybe there's something about being a secret keeper that makes a man vulnerable. Second, maybe this is additional proof for the Evil!Dumbledore theory. Maybe L&J knew that Dumbledore wasn't what he appeared to be. Here are 2 theories pick whichever one you like. Alina of Distant Place http://www.distantplace.net/ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release Date: 02/08/2002 From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Sep 2 19:16:44 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (bboy_mn) Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 19:16:44 -0000 Subject: Boggarts affects on Lupin and Harry In-Reply-To: <07db01c252ac$8a249120$e477073e@j0dhe> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43492 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Hollydaze" wrote: HOLLYDAZE Wrote: > OK I again want to apologise for bringing up topics from ages > ago (although this seems like a re-occurring favourite like > Snape and S Vs S) but I am still getting through those 7000 odd > emails! > > Basically this is in reply to all those questions about why the > Boggart Dementor affects Harry but Boggart Moon does not affect > Lupin. > ....SNIP..... > > The moon however is MUCH MUCH bigger, if the boggart were to turn into a real moon then it would partly destroy the planet (rather worrying idea) so therefore the boggart can't actually turn into the/a moon, it can only become an image or picture of the moon. This means it is not an actual full moon and therefore doesn't have the same power that the real full moon would have on Lupin because an image or picture of something never has the same powers/qualities or whatever that a *real* one of those would have (much like you can't drive a picture of a car, and an image of a lion can't attack you). > > Perhaps the same thing happens with other things of magical power that are too big to fit into wherever the boggart is being tackled, we don't know because we haven't seen any others that are too big that *should* affect someone in some way. > > I'm betting there is a really big problem with this idea that I haven't spotted so please be kind and point it out to me, it would be appreciated. > > HOLLYDAZE!!! > bboy_mn replies: Well, what you are saying is very close to my belief. The true moon is a massive force that has the power to move the oceans (tides) as well as affect peoples psychology (as in luny/loony). Plus, it has very distinct phases that are cyclical; occurring at precise predictable intervalds. Part of the werewolf effect is related to these cycles/phases of the moon and not just to it's presents. Of course, we have to temper this with some belief in magical forces since the less than full moon is still a full moon of which part is hidden by a shadow. The moon that appears in Lupins classroom is roughly the size that the moon is when it appears in the sky, yet it is only a couple of feet away. I think you get it, but if you were to go out late at night, hold up a ruler at arms length, and measure the moon (say it measures 1 inch) then that is roughly the size it would appear in Lupins classroom; one inch wide but only two feet away. I can't actually verify the exact size, but the point is, it's physically small. So given that it lacks the physical mass and therefore force of the true moon, and that it is not tied to the true moons phases, added to the fact that it doesn't hang around for more than a couple of minutes; it seems reasonable that it would not affect Lupin. The moon's presents and affect is significantly more complex than the presents of a spider or a Dementor. One additional thought, as a substantially more powerful and experienced wizard than Harry and the rest of his class; Lupin may have a greater ability to resist the synthetic boggart moon. Just some thoughts. bboy_mn From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Mon Sep 2 19:41:39 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (grey_wolf_c) Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 19:41:39 -0000 Subject: Potter's choice of a secret keeper In-Reply-To: <004701c252b1$215801e0$bea2cdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43493 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > I was rereading the Three Broomsticks scene in PoA, and noticed > something I hadn't thought about before. McGonagall says that > Dumbledore himself offered to be the Potter's secret keeper. Why not > accept such an offer? He was the only one Voldemort feared, it seems > logical. Why choose someone like Peter Pettigrew instead? Surely if > Voldemort had gone after him (even if he hadn't already been feeding > him information) he would have been easier to pry the information out > of. Compared to Dumbledore certainly. I also think poor Lupin got a > bad rap in the whole thing. His supposed best friends suspected him > on what basis? Being a werewolf? How prejudiced. Anyway, my main > concerns here are *why* James and Lily didn't agree to let Dumbledore > be their secret keeper. Anyone have an answer for me? Or two or > three? :) > > Richelle IMO, they didn't choose Dumbledore for the same reason that they didn't accept Sirius to begin with: it was too obvious a choice. And Dumbledore, after all, is not all-powerful. When the Potters decided to go into hiding, Dumbledore was NOT winning. The WW world was loosing the batte, and Dumbledore, as far as we know, could only manage a draw in his war against Voldemort, since Voldemort fears him, and he fears LV, and the outcome of a duel between them is not certain by any stretch of the mind. I get the feeling that things were pretty dangerous at that time, and Dumbledore was in the middle of things. He might not have been as exposed as the Potters or the rest of the old gang, but he was in a position were he *could* be killed sooner or later (I am assuming that the death of the secret keeper automatically cancels the spell). For that reason, they chose someone who LV wouldn't ever think of killing: Peter Pettigrew (I don't think Peter was doing all that much for D's side, so he wasn't as exposed). Oh, and they didn't choose Lupin because Sirius suspected he was the spy (I assume that Sirius and James thought that Lupin would sell his loyalty if LV had promised him, for exmaple, a cure for lycanthropism. I don't think so, but they knew him better than I do). Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Sep 2 19:51:27 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (bboy_mn) Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 19:51:27 -0000 Subject: Potter's choice of a secret keeper In-Reply-To: <004701c252b1$215801e0$bea2cdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43494 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > I was rereading the Three Broomsticks scene in PoA, and noticed something I hadn't thought about before. McGonagall says that Dumbledore himself offered to be the Potter's secret keeper. Why not accept such an offer? He was the only one Voldemort feared, it seems logical. Why choose someone like Peter Pettigrew instead? Surely if Voldemort had gone after him (even if he hadn't already been feeding him information) he would have been easier to pry the information out of. Compared to Dumbledore certainly. I also think poor Lupin got a bad rap in the whole thing. His supposed best friends suspected him on what basis? Being a werewolf? How prejudiced. Anyway, my main concerns here are *why* James and Lily didn't agree to let Dumbledore be their secret keeper. Anyone have an answer for me? Or two or three? :) > > Richelle > > ------------------------------------ > Richelle R. Votaw > 1st grade teacher > Kentwood Elementary > ------------------------------------ > bboy_mn adds some thoughts: First, do we have any direct statement that Dumbledore made this offer from anyone who was personally involved? McGonnagal says it, but is that an opinion or did she witness that or hear it directly from Dumbledore or James? I guess we can never know, but the point is, is she relaying rumor or is she stating a fact? Next, if I remember correctly, when Sirius was thinking about it (being the secert keeper), he was planning to leave the country or at least get seriously lost. Pettigrew, when he became the Secret Keeper went into hiding at a Safe House. So not only was it important for the secret to stay hidden, but for the secret keeper to stay hidden. Logically, the first step to finding the secret is finding the secret keeper. Dumbledore may have been too much in demand, too important to the fight to suddenly have to get lost. Plus, it would seem a very obvious choice. I think, their thought process at the time was to find the person who was least likely to be suspected as the secret keeper. Next, Dumbledore may have been the kindly father figure to James in the same way he is to Harry, but there is a big difference in the relationship between Harry and Ron, or James and Sirius, and Harry or James relationship with Dumbledore. They may not have been comfortable allowing Dumbledore to do something so intimate and personal. Just some thoughts. bboy_mn From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Mon Sep 2 18:06:30 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (CHRISTOPHER NUTTALL) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 19:06:30 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizard World (was Why I Dislike The Twins/Toon Talk . . .harsh WW) References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020902112616.04613c20@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43495 Hi, everyone Carol Bainbridge wrote: "Sorry if I misunderstood you, but it did sound like you meant Muggles in general, which made me think of a unity of the two groups, at least in the battle to defeat Voldemort. It does make a lot more sense to think that the parents of "mudbloods" would help in the fight against Voldemort. They already know all about magic and Hogwarts, so there would be no problem there. I'm just not too sure what a Muggle could do against a dark wizard as powerful as Voldemort, not to mention his followers. After all, even most wizards didn't have much of a chance against him." I think that there is a fundamental different (aside from the use/non-use of magic) between the Wizarding World and the Muggle one. While Wizards have strange powers, they are still HUMAN. Even Voldemort is still human, with human vulnabilities. I suspect that Wizards are strong individually, while Muggles are strong in groups. to make three points: 1) Magic needs emotional strenth as well as the abillity to cast spells. Remenber Moody/Crouch in GOF, where he comments that the massed strenth of the Fourth Years could cast the AK unforgivable curse and he would not get as much as a nosebleed. Therefore, possibly wizards can only cast a limited number of spells without rest. 2) as I said above, wizards are human. Muggle bullets will kill them just as effectivly as the AK curse. 3) We do not know of any spell that is equivilent to the Atomic Bomb. If something like that existed, surley it would be one of the unforgivables? Any comments Chris ps: has anyone read the 'age of misrule' books? Thats humans up against really supernatual beings that make Voldemort look like a tadpole. C [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kaityf at jorsm.com Mon Sep 2 18:09:32 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 13:09:32 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizarding culture/ attitude to arms In-Reply-To: References: <46.2cf736ae.2aa3de76@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020902121708.03f71610@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> No: HPFGUIDX 43496 MariaJ wrote: > >Here in Sweden most schools have some sort of plan about how to deal >with bullying (I even think there's to be a law that they have to have such >a plan, but I'm not entirely sure). Whether these plans actually work is an >entirely different matter , but at least these >plans exist. If schools in Sweden *have* to have a plan, then they're farther ahead than we are, whether the plans work or not. Here in America, concern about bullying has increased in the last decade because of the number of school shootings taking place. In nearly every instance, the shooters were bright kids who had been bullied. In response to these events, many schools did institute programs to help curb bullying, but the attitudes toward bullying remain basically the same. For instance, instead of actually doing something about the bullies, my son's middle school calls in the parents of the bulliED children to get them counseling they might need to cope with the bullying! The fear is that the bullied kids won't be able to cope and will go on a shooting rampage. They do also attempt to punish the bullies, but it usually amounts to the kind of punishment one would imagine Snape giving to Malfoy for bullying Neville. In other words, whatever plans do exist are there because of a fear that the bullied kids will go berserk. Some of them are actually well meaning, but it all comes down to the same thing -- bullying itself is not considered a serious enough problem. MariaJ added: > It's just >that, even those bone-headed principals admitted that bullying existed (they >just didn't want to admit it existed at their school), but I'm not so sure >even Dumbledore, that most enlightened of muggle-lovers (no sarcasm >intended), would see the need for A Plan Against Bullying. I'm not so sure about that either. JKR allows us to see only what she wants us to see about Hogwarts and the wizard world. The rest we have to guess at based on what else goes on there. If we think about Moody turning Malfoy into a ferret (one of my very favorite scenes!), we know that Moody, for one, does not like bullying. When McGonagall comes along to stop it, she says "We give detentions," which indicates to me that if a student is caught misbehaving, including bullying, he or she is given detention. The problem with many bullies, like Malfoy, is that they don't engage in bullying behavior when someone is around who they believe can punish them. Malfoy certainly doesn't care too much when Snape is around because he knows he can get away with a lot; the same is true about Hagrid, although for different reasons. But he is pretty careful around the other teachers. Moody caught him off-guard. Other than that, I think there's a limit to what details JKR needs to include in her books. The subject of the books, after all, isn't school behavior or bullying; it's more about coming of age and the battle between good and evil (in us and in the world). If Malfoy was dealt with appropriately for his bullying, I think something would be missing from the stories. MariaJ again: >The realisation that something is wrong doesn't in any way make it all >better (if it did there would be no bullying at Swedish schools), but it's >better than nothing. It's the first step. What I'm trying to say (and I'm >not sure I'm succeeding) is that I'm not sure the wizarding world has taken >that first step, and actually the bullying is a small problem compared with >the House Elfs, the Justice System, the attitude towards muggles etc, and >they don't seem to see anything wrong with that. But I think this is the point -- to reflect the wrongs of Muggle societies in the wizard society. I think JKR means to make us pretty darn uncomfortable with all these wrongs. MariaJ added: >There's a lot of problems that are the same in >both worlds, but the extent to which those problems are recognised as >problems differ a lot. Imho. Yes, and if all the problems were recognized and handled in ways that would make most of us happy, there wouldn't be much of a story left. Clearly, the wizards are rather behind the Muggles in their thinking about slavery. The Muggles justify house-elf slavery by saying that the house elves aren't human and they LIKE being slaves. It's rather like the justification used for slavery in the 18th and 19th centuries. It makes one think about what makes a person a good, decent person too. Is it Hermione, who sees the house-elves as slaves, who need to be set free? She wasn't raised in the wizard culture, so it's not that hard for her. What about Ron? Is Ron a bad person because he thinks house elves like being slaves? What about Harry? He wasn't raised in the wizard world, but doesn't share Hermione's passion for freeing the house elves. It doesn't help, either, that Winky cries and cries because she was dismissed by her master or that the house elves in the Hogwarts kitchen disapprove of Dobby, who is free and likes his freedom. It seems as though Ron and the other wizards are right -- the house elves do like being slaves. Even Dobby doesn't seem to want too much. So what exactly, according to the wizard world, makes the house elf situation a problem that needs to be recognized? Perhaps it takes an outsider, like Hermione, to point out the problems. And I think Dumbledore reacted quite admirably. >MariaJ wrote: >Let me be honest: if JKR had written PS/SS and CoS and then stopped writing >I would have read them, laughed a lot, and that would have been it. It's >when I read PoA and especially GoF, when she started to dig below the >surface, show us the rest of the society, introduce us to the injustices and >wrongs of the WW, that I decided that JKR was a much better author than I >had given her credit for after reading the first two books. She makes me >happy and sad and angry and uncomfortable and occasionally full of warm, >fuzzy feelings that I can't put a name to (aaah, Harry is going to live with >Sirius, how sweet) - all at the same time. That, in my opinion, is what >makes her great. I couldn't agree more. JKR has quite a knack for writing what appears to be a pretty simple story with an awful lot underneath. The only other writer I can think of off-hand who was able to do this to perfection is Mark Twain. Even today many people don't recognize the underlying criticism of society in Huckleberry Finn. It's the same sort of thing. On the surface, the story is just a coming of age story in which an orphan boy has many great adventures while traveling on a raft on the Mississippi River. It is way more than that though -- if you look for it. >MariaJ: >Let me go off on a different tangent: Voldemort is supposed to be this big >threat, right? He's not out to destroy the world or anything like that, but >he does want to take over. Or something. I have to admit I'm a bit hazy on >what Voldemort actually wants, except kill Harry, harass muggles and, eh, >humiliate his Death Eaters. Now, if his objective really is to take over the >world (i.e. Britain) then sooner or later muggles will become aware of this. >It's not as if the Good Guys can run around making Memory Charms on everyone >who's seen something, then they won't have any time to actually fight >against Voldemort, which has to be the top priority after all. You know, this is really interesting and it's something that I've wondered about briefly every so often as I'm rereading one of the books. What DOES Voldemort want? It is clear he wants to take over, but I usually just vaguely imagine he wants to take over the wizard world. I wonder, though. Maybe he does want total control, but first he needs to control the wizard world. But whatever would he do with the Muggle world? Use us for his entertainment? Slaves? Experiments? I would think that if it's total domination Voldemort wants, he wouldn't have any problem beating the Muggles into submission once he had conquered the wizard world. Maybe I don't have a vivid enough imagination, but I can't envision what Muggles could do to beat powerful dark wizards, when the wizards themselves were nearly beaten. It was only Harry that stopped Voldemort, after all. MariaJ: >Of course, it all depends on what Voldemort actually wants. Or rather, how >far JKR is going to let it go. She may write Voldemort as if he wants to >take over the world, that doesn't mean it's ever going to be an outright >war, but only skirmishes between wizards and a final duel between Voldemort >and Harry. Then muggles would never have to find out. > >See how nicely I destroy my own arguments. :) Excellent talent to have! I actually think you brought up an interesting issue about Voldemort's goals. Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From seusilva at uol.com.br Mon Sep 2 19:00:00 2002 From: seusilva at uol.com.br (seusilva) Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 16:00:00 -0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Potters' choice of a secret keeper In-Reply-To: <004701c252b1$215801e0$bea2cdd1@istu757> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020902155437.009ee9f0@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 43497 RICHELLE wrote: I was rereading the Three Broomsticks scene in PoA, and noticed something I hadn't thought about before. McGonagall says that Dumbledore himself offered to be the Potters' secret keeper. Why not accept such an offer? He was the only one Voldemort feared, it seems logical. Why choose someone like Peter Pettigrew instead? Surely if Voldemort had gone after him (even if he hadn't already been feeding him information) he would have been easier to pry the information out of. Compared to Dumbledore certainly. I also think poor Lupin got a bad rap in the whole thing. His supposed best friends suspected him on what basis? Being a werewolf? How prejudiced. Anyway, my main concerns here are *why* James and Lily didn't agree to let Dumbledore be their secret keeper. Anyone have an answer for me? Or two or three? SILVA Further question: Why James didn't choose Lily, and vice-versa? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From iwant12 at hotmail.com Mon Sep 2 19:22:57 2002 From: iwant12 at hotmail.com (fruhu) Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 19:22:57 -0000 Subject: Snape's office sealed? (short) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43498 In GoF page 408 (UK hardb.) Snape says he seals his office with a spell none but a wizard could break. But in her second year Hermione steals Boomslang skin from his private stores, and I don't remember there being a problem with breaking a seal. She just sneaks in there quickly when the others are at potions class. "fruhu" From millergal8 at aol.com Mon Sep 2 20:06:06 2002 From: millergal8 at aol.com (millergal8 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 16:06:06 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Potters' choice of a secret keeper Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43499 In a message dated 9/2/02 12:43:14 PM Pacific Daylight Time, greywolf1 at jazzfree.com writes: << IMO, they didn't choose Dumbledore for the same reason that they didn't accept Sirius to begin with: it was too obvious a choice. >> Actually, Sirius was accepted as the secret keeper. "I persuaded Lily and James to change to Peter at the last moment..." So James and Lily were set to trust Sirius with their secret. Sirius just realized he was too high profile to be effective. I must give you props on the why didn't they go back to Dumbledore theory though. I have wondered that since the first time I read the books and had not thought of that one. Thanks. As for Lupin being the suspected spy, I don't think Lupin was necassarily the only name on the list. Sirius was simply convinced because he knew he couldn't be the spy, didn't give Peter enough credit, so that leaves Lupin. Now surely there were other people who were close to the Potters after school. They could just as easily been suspected, Sirius merely thought Lupin because he was probably in the habit of thinking of the four friends. Christy From Mysticwolf_girl at hotmail.com Mon Sep 2 20:15:29 2002 From: Mysticwolf_girl at hotmail.com (emma_look_alike) Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 20:15:29 -0000 Subject: Predictions about socks Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43500 Here are some of my (hopefully original) predictions about what Dumbledore saw in the Mirror of Erised. He saw himself holding socks. Perhaps he wants the House Elves to be free, maybe to help fight Voldemort. You know, in CoS, when Harry gave Dobby a sock to free him? But Dumbledore could DESIRE this because he knows that the House Elves don't want to be free. However, can't Dumbledore(their master) tell them to fight Voldemort? Maybe for some reason House Elves aren't allowed to fight or be violent at all. Another thing is that Dumbledore couldn't have known that Harry would free Dobby with a sock (it happened in CoS, and the Mirror of Erised was in SS/PS)... could he? I suppose it could have been Trelawaney's prediction, but I rather fancy the 'boy born around halloween, 1979'idea. Any opinions on this? Emma_look_alike From MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Sep 2 20:41:15 2002 From: MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM (mitchbailey82) Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 20:41:15 -0000 Subject: Which Twin is which In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43501 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "abigailnus" wrote: > > << I will persist in my claim that the twins have no character depth > > whatsoever until someone points out a way of telling them apart.) Maybe the point is that you can't tell them apart? Your looking to find a reason for their character depth by looking for a difference, however it could be that the fact that they are so much the same that gives them if not depth then prehaps use in plot terms. Because here you have to characters that are essentially the same - this makes one of them a 'spare' in a sense. Meaning that you can get rid of one of them without getting rid of an entire character. This is one of the reasons I feel that maybe one of the twims will die. They are all to often getting into trouble and doing dangerous things for fun e.g. in PS Hagird says he'spent a lot of time keeping the twins out of the forbidden forest, but it is dangerous doing this although they don't seem to care or prehaps they think their too smart to end upihn serious trouble? It seems to me that the Weasley family as a whole were lucky the first time voldemort was around (I would have thought we would have heard by now of any serious death in the family due to Voldemort by now) So they were lucky that time but the odds of such a big family being so lucky the second time around are not good. My bets are on either the one of the twins or percy getting it. I say percy because he seems to stick out like a sore thumb against the rest of the Weasley kids. Also has anyone else noticed that while there seems to be small gaps in age between most of the Weasley kids (1 or 2 school years) by my calculations (going on the fact that Charlie seemingly left hogwarts 5 years before Ron started) Percy is about 8 years younger than Charlie - why such the huge gap? It seems to make Percy stand out even more. Michelle From kaityf at jorsm.com Mon Sep 2 21:11:13 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 16:11:13 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Abstemiousness with truth - the careful fantasy world of Potter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020902153534.01ecd8d0@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> No: HPFGUIDX 43502 At 8/30/02 04:34 AM, darkthirty wrote: >The hardest thing to accept about the apparent magical world of Harry >Potter is that, in spite of Dumbledore's reticence regarding the >reason Voldemort wants Harry dead, in spite of "the restricted >section," which, I point out, contains information essential to the >so-called heroes' quest, in spite of so many characters being >mysteries, as they say, to other characters, as Black and Snape, for >instance, are, or Neville is to the trio, signs both of >intransigence, in the first case, or betraying every sign of >Rowling's unravelling of facts on a "need to know" basis - that is, >in the context of her literary career, in terms of making the >series "make sense" at the end of it all - as is the case with >Neville, in spite of Hermione's secret use of the Time Turner, a >secret that proved quite dangerous, in particular to Hermione, and a >secrecy that had to be pierced in order to complete the given quest, >all of these ignorances involving core aspects of the story, Harry >and the trio can still succeed. Mighty long sentence, but if I understand you correctly, you don't think that in reality the trio would be successful. My only answer to that is that the books are not reality. They are fiction. And not just any kind of fiction, but specifically fantasy. How real should a fantasy have to be? Personally, I don't have a problem with any of the "in spite of's" you mention. We won't know how all of it fits together until JKR's last book in the series comes out. Perhaps then all the loose ends will be neatly tied up. If not, it gives readers more to speculate about, or if they'd rather, criticize her for. >How is this possible? Are we to assume fate, a grossly misunderstood >concept in my opinion, being myself something of a secular calvinist, >declares that Harry and the trio will succeed whether or not those >around them attempt to keep them in the dark, to impose, in a way, >ignorance upon them? Do we really believe Harry's successful >encounters so far have been written beforehand, and the outcome >assured? Does this ultimately matter? Isn't that a question about life in general, not just the HP series? Isn't this central to the question of will and self-determination, destiny, etc., in life? IS Harry destined to succeed? I don't know. It would certainly be an odd series if it ended around book 6 with Harry's failure. It would be pretty odd if he failed in book 7 as well. And if he didn't encounter any difficulties, didn't have to beat any odds, what kind of story would it be? What kinds of questions would be raised? This is yet another aspect of Rowling's story that I love so much. She writes in such a simple style, with lots of humor, but underneath it all lie plenty of serious questions about life. >His response to the 2nd task seems central here. His success >depends upon some inner quality, which may or may not be connected to >his so-called magical qualities, that makes him stay. He goes through >no internal debate. His staying was not quite a decision; rather, as >he later reflects, it was an action, the right one, we agree, made in >ignorance. A bit of pathos. But Harry is still young. Not many young people reflect on their behavior or agonize over right or wrong. They know what is right and what is wrong and they act on it. As they get older and learn more of the world, they need more reasons for their behavior and have to make more conscious moral decisions. As I mentioned in another post, Mark Twain did similar things in Huckleberry Finn. Huck instinctively behaved in what we would consider a "right" way, when he decided to help Jim, the slave, escape, in spite of the fact that he knew it was a crime to do so. Beyond that he didn't think about it much. Later, he begins to reflect on the decision. He came to the same conclusion -- that he would help Jim -- but this time it was a conscious one which resulted from reasoning. I suspect that we may see Harry do the same sort of thing as the series progresses. He behaves instinctively the right way and later will come to understand why those actions are right. >Let me try to demonstrate my reading of Rowling like this - The so- >called magical world of Harry Potter is, on one level, on perhaps the >most fundamental level, unequivocally nothing more than the extended >fantasy-world of an abused boy stuck in a closet. I cannot state this >strongly enough. This too, in my reading, seems as much an inwards >pressure >as an outwards one. Certainly everyone is allowed his or her interpretation of a book. I don't buy this particular interpretation, but then I'm not fond of this type of psychological deconstruction of literary texts. >Do we agree with Dumbledore's assessment that Harry should grow up >away from what we are supposed to believe are the horrifying and >dangerous consequences of fame, and be, rather, reared by people who >hate what he represents, mistrust and abuse him? Of course not. I assume you are referring to sending Harry back to the Dursleys for the summer holidays? I don't think Dumbledore knew just how bad the Dursleys would be to Harry. He isn't exactly omnipotent, is he? McGonagall told him at the beginning that the Dursleys were the worst sort of Muggle, but that technically isn't true. The worst sort of Muggle would be the type to chain a boy up in a basement, physically torture him, keep him out of school, and possibly end up killing him. Granted, the Dursleys are not nice to Harry and are quite mean, but they could certainly be far worse. >So we >must accept that Dumbledore's assurance about the safety of the >Dursley's house is true - otherwise, he's just being a stupid old man >who assumes family is more important than human rights. I don't think Dumbledore was concerned so much with family as he was with relative normality. He felt that it would be best for Harry to grow up away from the fame he would have in the wizard world, which meant he'd have to grow up with Muggles and the Dursleys were the only family Harry had left. I don't think human rights was an issue at all. >This so- >called safety certainly looks like the rationalization of someone in >a hopeless and helpless situation to me. And for someone deprived of >information, of ways of obtaining it, someone for whom the paths to >knowledge are closed, ignorance might seem strength. In a real way, >however, for such a person, ignorance would surely be some measure of >protection. Ignorance about one's actual hopeless and helpless >situation, the extent of it, or rather, intensity of it. Are you saying that Harry was actually hopeless and helpless? I'm not clear as to who the someone is who is rationalizing. Personally, I don't think Dumbledore was so far off in his thinking about keeping Harry away from all the fame in the wizard world. We all know what fame can do when children grow up with it, particularly when they the fame comes from something they either didn't do or aren't aware of doing. Many don't handle it very well. >I'm not sure how much of this line Rowling is conscious of when she >writes. I have no intention in this post of addressing that >particular moot area. One method of literary criticism is to see a text as a reflection of an author's subconscious. I think this can be fun and interesting, but I don't think it adds all that much to an understanding of the text. What we may learn is something about the author, but we don't learn a whole lot more about the text itself. Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From doffy99 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 2 22:02:00 2002 From: doffy99 at yahoo.com (doffy99) Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 22:02:00 -0000 Subject: Possible proof that there are some other schools Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43503 Hi, I've been following this thread about how many students are at Hogwarts and how big the Wizarding population of England is and what happens to those who DON'T get into Hogwart's, since it is the ONLY school of witchcraft and wizardry in England. I refer you to SS, Chapter seven, "The Sorting Hat" Page 125. Neville is speaking about how he didn't show any magic until the age of eight when his uncle dropped him in favor of a meringue.(Nice uncle huh?) Anyway, Neville states: "And you should have seen their faces when I got in here -- they thought I might not be magic enough to come, you see. Great Uncle Algie was so pleased he bought me my toad." The key words here are "When I got in here." If there was the possibility that he may not get into Hogwart's then there must be other schools. Yes, I guess he could have been refering to Beaxbatons or one of the other schools outside England, but if he wasn't magic enough for Hogwart's, what's the odds anyone else would have taken him? In my opinion, this is enough proof, for me anyway, to show that there are some other forms of schools in England. A Vocational school or some such. Just my opinion. Let me know what you think. -Jeff From Victim_of_Atlantis at hotmail.com Mon Sep 2 22:17:53 2002 From: Victim_of_Atlantis at hotmail.com (Lost Feyth) Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 18:17:53 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Boggarts affects on Lupin and Harry Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43504 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Hollydaze" wrote: HOLLYDAZE Wrote: > Basically this is in reply to all those questions about why the > Boggart Dementor affects Harry but Boggart Moon does not affect > Lupin. I think that Lupin is more afraid of the *sight* of the moon, not the moon itself. And when the moon is slowly getting bigger over time, and knowing full well what it will bring. That's why the boggart changed into an image of the moon, not the moon itself. And as HOLLYDAZE or bboy_mn said (Sorry, I can't remember which one said it!) you can't be harmed by an image. (Well, not physically anyways) Just my thoughts. -Lost Feyth, still trying to get out of lurkerdome, but fears it will not be because she has way too much school work, and she keeps procrastinating. Ah, the joys of university life. ^_~ _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From crana at ntlworld.com Mon Sep 2 22:25:15 2002 From: crana at ntlworld.com (rosie) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 23:25:15 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's office sealed? (short) References: Message-ID: <001e01c252cf$9cdf8f40$9db168d5@xxx> No: HPFGUIDX 43505 "fruhu" wrote: "In GoF page 408 (UK hardb.) Snape says he seals his office with a spell none but a wizard could break. But in her second year Hermione steals Boomslang skin from his private stores, and I don't remember there being a problem with breaking a seal. She just sneaks in there quickly when the others are at potions class." Maybe he only started sealing them like that after Hermione's break-in? Or, since (as I remember), she stole it during class, maybe he leaves it unlocked during class so he can easily pop in and get this and that, and seals it when he is not teaching and away from his classroom/office. Rosie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jferer at yahoo.com Mon Sep 2 23:04:11 2002 From: jferer at yahoo.com (jferer) Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 23:04:11 -0000 Subject: Wizarding culture/ attitude to arms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43506 MariaJ:"I hope you're right. I feel that by Book 7 what we'll see is a realisation that some of the more flagrant injustices in the WW is wrong. The House Elfs will be liberated. People like Hagrid and Lupin will contribute to the Second Fall of Voldemort and prove that outcasts like them can be heroic etc. The kind of changes you're talking about though (the Tough, macho wizard mentality isn't a good thing, wizards can say sorry, crying is ok and so on) - that's changing the whole society at its roots. Changes like that don't come easy and they take time. Generations. Considering wizards and witches live much longer than muggles do, it'll probably take even longer for the attitudes to die out. I'm not so sure we'll see any of *that* by Book 7." Societies don't turn on a dime - none has virtually overnight. I suspect what the books do is make us look at our prejudices freshly, by changing the objects of the prejudice around. We are so used to - and maybe weary of - talking about the many forms of prejudice in our world, that changing the prejudice from Wizard against Mudblood or Wizard against Giant hits us from a different angle, so to speak. The other message is one JKR may not have intended - prejudice is the dark side of humanity, all humanity. Every ethnic group and almost every nation has it, in some form. What's great about JKR's writing is that she has made the complexity of people accessible to younger readers. It's broader than just talking about prejudice. Her heroes are real people, not plaster saints, which may cause some people in our hypersensitive age to rethink just what it means to be one of the good guys. MariaJ:"Harry uses the Furnunculus curse and George Jelly-Legs (the only two jinxes named) on the train at the end of GoF. Both seem to be fairly harmless (boils and jelly legs), so is it the fact that they're five against three that makes this incident seem much worse than the other times Furnunculus and Jelly-Legs are used?" Does it seem worse to you? Goodness knows I have no sympathy for Draco and his muscle boys. They deserve whatever happened to them. JKR clearly sympathizes with the Trio and the twins, too. Why? She does seem to have no problem with rough justice. I don't, either, but that's neither here nor there. From rvotaw at i-55.com Mon Sep 2 23:09:25 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 18:09:25 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Predictions about socks/ Secret Keepers/ Boggarts/ Harry & Phoenix References: Message-ID: <00bb01c252d5$c874ba80$5a9fcdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 43507 Emma look alike writes: > Here are some of my (hopefully original) predictions about what > Dumbledore saw in the Mirror of Erised. Well, one problem. We don't really know that Dumbledore saw socks in the Mirror. Only that he told Harry he saw socks. And Harry later thought about it and realized it was a very personal question, after all. However, if he *did* see socks I don't think it would be directly related to house elves. As any article of clothing could be used. But there is a definite sock theme going on here! > SILVA > Further question: Why James didn't choose Lily, and vice-versa? Well, probably because the secret keeper can't be part of what's kept secret. Because the secret keeper has to be available for emergencies or some such thing. HOLLYDAZE writes: > Basically this is in reply to all those questions about why the Boggart Dementor affects > Harry but Boggart Moon does not affect Lupin. Well, I think it's partially because, as you said, the Boggart can't turn into an exact replica of the moon. Also, we only see it turn into a moon once, small enough that it's mistaken for a chrystal ball. Lupin also knows what to expect, he knows what his boggart will turn into, as does Harry. But Lupin also knows that it's not real, and only the *real* moon affects him. Not simply the sight of the moon. Does this make any sense? That and he's a bit more experienced at dealing with boggarts than Harry is. And later on when the boggart is used for anti-dementor training, they do want it to affect Harry as a real dementor would. Perhaps Harry's mind allows it to affect him as a real dementor whereas Lupin's mind doesn't allow him to react to it as a real moon. Once again, any sense at all?! :) Melody writes (in response to my truly brilliant ;) theories on the similarities in the phoenix and Harry): > While this idea does bring a new ?gift? to Harry for him to use in > defeating Voldie, I truly doubt it. If Harry can heal with his eyes > like a phoenix, then I would think the heir of Slytherin could kill > with his eyes like the Basilisk. Seems if it is meant to be a > parallel of houses, then the talents of both would be matched That's why I *don't* think Harry can heal with his eyes. But I think there's something in the eyes. Mainly based on JKR's comments when asked just that, if there were a way that some wizards/witches could use their eyes to do magic. It could be equally matched, however, that as the heir of Slytherin can command the Basilisk to kill that perhaps the heir of Gryffindor can command the Phoenix to heal. Nice contrast there. But I also like to think that the heir of Gryffindor will have multiple powers compared to the heir of Slytherin. The Basilisk can do what, petrify and kill? And live a long time. While the phoenix can heal, strenghten the pure of heart with it's song (while striking fear in the heart of the impure, that's handy), appear and disappear at will, is known for its gentleness and I quote "has never been known to kill." And also regenerates so that it too can live to an immense age. Richelle From jferer at yahoo.com Mon Sep 2 23:20:06 2002 From: jferer at yahoo.com (jferer) Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 23:20:06 -0000 Subject: Potters' choice of a secret keeper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43508 Millergal(Christy):"Now surely there were other people who were close to the Potters after school. They could just as easily been suspected, Sirius merely thought Lupin because he was probably in the habit of thinking of the four friends." Likely, IMO, you're right. And there's something else someone mentioned in this thread - Lupin is vulnerable. what if LV *did* offer him a cure for his lycanthropy? OR threaten to reveal his lycanthropy to the school at large? It's a fairly settled principle of security that people with vulnerabilities, are, well, vulnerable. They don't like people with secrets. Is that a prejudice? It sorta is, but it's not rational to ignore a risk factor when your life is at stake. I can imagine (and hope, for his sake) Lupin advising the same thing. He and Sirius were probably on the front lines against Voldemort and shouldn't have been exposed to capture anyway. From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Mon Sep 2 23:31:20 2002 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus) Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 23:31:20 -0000 Subject: HP5 rumor: Trelawney will give up her Crystal Ball Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43509 She just couldn't see any future in it. :-D Marcus From jferer at yahoo.com Mon Sep 2 23:34:38 2002 From: jferer at yahoo.com (jferer) Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 23:34:38 -0000 Subject: Harry and the Phoenix - Wild Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43510 bboy_mn:"So Dumbledore dies and transfers the internal and external magical'gifts' of Gryffindor to Harry. Harry goes to battle Voldemort. In the battle, Voldemort kills Harry which leads to Voldemort's own final and complete death. Harry's body BURST into flame and is reduced to ashes. Among the ashes is found a very cute dark haired, green eyed baby boy with a 'Z' shaped scar on his forehead. The soon to be married Hermione and Ron take the baby and raise him as their very own, thereby allowing Harry Potter one more chance to live. The End" Bravo!! I think you're the first ever to come up with that one!!! It's wild enough to be a lot of fun. I can imagine variants involving phoenix tears and so on. But the baby wouldn't have a scar, would he? He'd be Harry before V tried to kill him. And I can't stand the Ron/Hermione part, but that's a COMPLETE other discussion <> From Mysticwolf_girl at hotmail.com Mon Sep 2 23:29:50 2002 From: Mysticwolf_girl at hotmail.com (emma_look_alike) Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 23:29:50 -0000 Subject: Question: Malfoy and Slytherin Amigos Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43511 Do Malfoy and the Slytherins have friends in other houses? Does ANY in depth other-house relationships go on inside Hogwarts? I know that there are siblings, like Padma and Parvati Patil, plus there are girlfriend and boyfriends in different houses, like Cho and Cedric, Percy and Penelope, but do any frienships go on? Interesting... JKR doesn't talk about it much, and Harry certainly seems to be happy making friends inside Gryffindor. Another question about friends- Does it seem that Harry only has Ron and Hermione for friends? Sure they're BEST friends, but the books only talk about how sometimes they share tables with Seamus and Dean and Neville, or eat with them, or have classes with them. They hardly play a role (excluding Neville) at all, except as the other 'Gryffindor boys.' Any opinions on Hogwarts Friendships? Emma_look_alike From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Sep 3 00:20:45 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (bboy_mn) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 00:20:45 -0000 Subject: Snape's office sealed? (short) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43512 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "fruhu" wrote: > In GoF page 408 (UK hardb.) Snape says he seals his office with a > spell none but a wizard could break. But in her second year Hermione > steals Boomslang skin from his private stores, and I don't remember > there being a problem with breaking a seal. She just sneaks in there > quickly when the others are at potions class. > > "fruhu" bboy_mn comments: When Hermione stole supplies, they were from the supply stores in the classroom. Other references to Snapes office haven't given me the impression that it is in or near the potions classroom. Well, it's certainly in the dungeon, but I get no indication that it is attached to the potions classroom. So I don't think Hermione stole supplies from Snape's private office, but from his private supplies cuboard/room in the classroom. I don't have it here in front of me, but I think we might have two separate events. One is Moody/Couch in Snape's Office as seen on the Map, and Snape's later statement that ingredients were missing from his private stock. Those two are not necessarily the same event. Just some thoughts. bboy_mn From drumforever at earthlink.net Tue Sep 3 00:41:40 2002 From: drumforever at earthlink.net (Betty Landers) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 20:41:40 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's office sealed? (short) References: Message-ID: <006a01c252e2$b0f0c1d0$04f3b23f@bettysue> No: HPFGUIDX 43513 ----- Original Message ----- From: "bboy_mn" To: Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 8:20 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's office sealed? (short) snipped for brevity:bboy_mn comments: > > When Hermione stole supplies, they were from the supply stores in the > classroom. Other references to Snapes office haven't given me the > impression that it is in or near the potions classroom. Well, it's > certainly in the dungeon, but I get no indication that it is attached > to the potions classroom. > > So I don't think Hermione stole supplies from Snape's private office, > but from his private supplies cuboard/room in the classroom. > > I don't have it here in front of me, but I think we might have two > separate events. One is Moody/Couch in Snape's Office as seen on the > Map, and Snape's later statement that ingredients were missing from > his private stock. Those two are not necessarily the same event. > > Just some thoughts. > > bboy_mn I certainly would not rule out the possibility that she did get them from Snape's office or that his office and classroom are in different places except for the following bit of cannon to the contrary, which I just found when I was about to agree with you and only suggest that it wasn't absolute proof of your point. CoS. Ch. 11: "Goyle's potion exploded, showering the whole class. People shrieked as splashes of the Swelling Solution hit them. Malfoy got a faceful and his nose began to swell like a balloon; Goyle blundered around, his hands over his eyes, which had expanded to the size of a dinner plate - Snape was trying to restore calm and find out what had happened. Through the confusion, Harry saw Hermione slip quietly into Snape's office." With that bit of cannon, I would suggest that Snape's office adjoins the dungeon, otherwise Hermione would have had a job leaving to go somewhere completely different. It would have been too obvious if someone had had to open and shut a door just after that. Therefore, for her to do it quietly so Snape wouldn't notice, I guess that the door must have been open. Similarly, it would be a lot easier for someone who is going to make potions to have cauldrons easily accessible and not to have to go to two separate places. My 2 knuts. Betty From drednort at alphalink.com.au Tue Sep 3 00:41:22 2002 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 10:41:22 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's office sealed? (short) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3D7491D2.24420.53490B@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 43514 On 3 Sep 2002 at 0:20, bboy_mn wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "fruhu" wrote: > > In GoF page 408 (UK hardb.) Snape says he seals his office with a > > spell none but a wizard could break. But in her second year Hermione > > steals Boomslang skin from his private stores, and I don't remember > > there being a problem with breaking a seal. She just sneaks in there > > quickly when the others are at potions class. > > > > "fruhu" > > bboy_mn comments: > > When Hermione stole supplies, they were from the supply stores in the > classroom. Other references to Snapes office haven't given me the > impression that it is in or near the potions classroom. Well, it's > certainly in the dungeon, but I get no indication that it is attached > to the potions classroom. > > So I don't think Hermione stole supplies from Snape's private office, > but from his private supplies cuboard/room in the classroom. No - she definitely took them from his office - >From Chamber of Secrets: "In the second week of December Professor McGonagall came around as usual, collecting names of those who would be staying at school for Christmas. Harry, Ron, and Hermione signed her list; they had heard that Malfoy was staying, which struck them as very suspicious. The holidays would be the perfect time to use the Polyjuice Potion and try to worm a confession out of him. Unfortunately, the potion was only half finished. They still needed the bicorn horn and the boomslang skin, and the only place they were going to get them was from Snape's private stores. Harry privately felt he'd rather face Slytherin's legendary monster than let Snape catch him robbing his office. "What we need," said Hermione briskly as Thursday afternoon's double Potions lesson loomed nearer, "is a diversion. Then one of us can sneak into Snape's office and take what we need."" and the office must be very near/attached to the classroom as Harry can see Hermione enter it after causing his diversion: "Goyle's potion exploded, showering the whole class. People shrieked as splashes of the Swelling Solution hit them. Malfoy got a faceful and his nose began to swell like a balloon; Goyle blundered around, his hands over his eyes, which had expanded to the size of a dinner plate - Snape was trying to restore calm and find out what had happened. Through the confusion, Harry saw Hermione slip quietly into Snape's office." I made dozens of notes on this in compiling my floorplans of Hogwarts (-8 Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From Mysticwolf_girl at hotmail.com Mon Sep 2 23:37:38 2002 From: Mysticwolf_girl at hotmail.com (emma_look_alike) Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 23:37:38 -0000 Subject: Harry and the Phoenix Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43515 I am a *huge* fan that Harry is the heir of Gryffindor. I sincerly think that that is the reason Voldemort tried to kill him; ie The rivalry of Salazar and Godric. Harry is the last remaining descendant of Gryffindor and Voldemort/Tom Riddle is the last remaining descendant of Slytherin. Though highly unlikely as many other posts have said, anything's possible in fantasy books. Also, Voldemort DEFINETLEY did not mind killing James, but he said that Lily didn't have to die. Why? Lily wasn't a descendant of Godric Gryffindor, Harry got it from his Dad's side. Dumbledore said: 'Only a true Gryffindor could pull that out of the hat, Harry' (or something like that) -SS/PS. Maybe he was ALSO refering to only a true DESCENDANT of Gryffindor could have pulled that out of the hat. The last reenforcement I have is that the Potters lived in Godric's hollow. Perhaps another hint? Almost certainly this subject has been picked to death already, but I love it. I really think Harry is the heir. "emma_look_alike" From the.gremlin at verizon.net Tue Sep 3 00:39:27 2002 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (ats_fhc3) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 00:39:27 -0000 Subject: Snape's office sealed? (short) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43516 > bboy_mn comments: > > When Hermione stole supplies, they were from the supply stores in the > classroom. Other references to Snapes office haven't given me the > impression that it is in or near the potions classroom. Well, it's > certainly in the dungeon, but I get no indication that it is attached > to the potions classroom. > > So I don't think Hermione stole supplies from Snape's private office, > but from his private supplies cuboard/room in the classroom. > > I don't have it here in front of me, but I think we might have two > separate events. One is Moody/Couch in Snape's Office as seen on the > Map, and Snape's later statement that ingredients were missing from > his private stock. Those two are not necessarily the same event. > > Just some thoughts. > > bboy_mn Actually, in CoS, when Snape is taking Harry and Ron to his office, Harry is talking (or thinking about) walking through the dungeons. I, too, however, don't have the books with me, seeing as how they are at home, and I am at school, and I "forgot" to pack them. And if Moody was going to steal potions ingredients from Snape's private stores, and Snape's private stores are in the classroom, why would Snape and/or Harry see Moody/Crouch in Snape's office? And I don't think Moody was *actually* searching Snape's office... -Acire, who wonders where the teachers sleep. From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com Tue Sep 3 01:26:55 2002 From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 18:26:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [FILK] Skip to the Loo Message-ID: <20020903012655.74792.qmail@web40308.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43517 SKIP TO THE LOO WITH HARRY (to the tune of _Skip to My Lou_) http://www.hendersonville-pd.org/nurseryskip.html Dedicated to my husband, Robert, who swears HE invented the phrase "Skip to the Loo", even though he's not Brittish. HERMIONE Disembodied voices, what should we do? Petrified felines, what should we do? Threatening messages, what should we do? RON Skip to the loo with Harry TRIO Skip, skip, skip to the loo Skip, skip, skip to the loo Skip, skip, skip to the loo Skip to the loo with Harry HARRY Must investigate in the loo Myrtle interrogate in the loo Scorch marks, water puddles are some clues RON Clues by the loo with Harry TRIO Clues, clues, clues by the loo Clues, clues, clues by the loo Clues, clues, clues by the loo Clues by the loo with Harry RON (sarcastically) Hates squibs and mudbloods, do you know who? HARRY Sounds like Malfoy, but how to prove? HERMIONE I'll bet we have to break lots of rules Break lots of rules with Harry TRIO Break, break, break lots of rules Break, break, break lots of rules Break, break, break lots of rules Break lots of rules with Harry HERMIONE Oh! I know! We'll make polyjuice! Mix it up right here in the loo! I'll make my waterproof fire here, too. Brew in the Loo with Harry TRIO Brew, brew, brew in the loo Brew, brew, brew in the loo Brew, brew, brew in the loo Brew in the loo with Harry HERMIONE (as she puts in the ingredients) Lacewing flies and leeches, too. Fluxweed picked on a bright full moon. Powdered horn of bicorn, too. Stirring the brew with Harry. TRIO Stir, stir, stirring the brew Stir, stir, stirring the brew Stir, stir, stirring the brew Stirring the brew with Harry. HERMIONE Shredded skin of boomslang, oooohhh. And bits of who you change into RON Tell me not Crabbe's toenails, eeeewwww! Eeeww! in the loo with Harry TRIO Eeeww! Eeeww! Eeeww! in the loo. Eeeww! Eeeww! Eeeww! in the loo. Eeeww! Eeeww! Eeeww! in the loo. Eeeww! in the loo with Harry HARRY Smells like rotten cabbage stew Looks like greasy, slimy goo RON Should've knocked Malfoy off his broom Than drink the brew here, Harry TRIO Drink, drink, drinking the brew Drink, drink, drinking the brew Drink, drink, drinking the brew While in the loo with Harry! ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ "Tut, tut --- hardly any of you remembered that my favorite color is *lilac*. I say so in Year with the Yeti." --Gilderoy Lockhart, COS --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Sep 3 01:34:33 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (bboy_mn) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 01:34:33 -0000 Subject: Snape's office sealed? (short) In-Reply-To: <006a01c252e2$b0f0c1d0$04f3b23f@bettysue> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43518 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Betty Landers" wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > snipped for brevity:bboy_mn comments: > > When Hermione stole supplies, they were from the supply stores > > in the classroom. Other references to Snapes office haven't > > given me the impression that it is in or near the potions > > classroom. Well, it's certainly in the dungeon, but I get no > > indication that it is attached to the potions classroom. > > > > So I don't think Hermione stole supplies from Snape's private > > office, but from his private supplies cuboard/room in the > > classroom. > > > > I don't have it here in front of me, but I think we might have > > two separate events. One is Moody/Couch in Snape's Office as > > seen on the Map, and Snape's later statement that ingredients > > were missing from his private stock. Those two are not > > necessarily the same event. > > > Just some thoughts. > > > bboy_mn > > > I certainly would not rule out the possibility that she did get them from Snape's office or that his office and classroom are in different places except for the following bit of cannon to the contrary, which I just found when I was about to agree with you and only suggest that it wasn't absolute proof of your point. > CoS. Ch. 11: > "Goyle's potion exploded, showering the whole class. People shrieked as splashes of the Swelling Solution hit them. Malfoy got a faceful and his nose began to swell like a balloon; Goyle blundered around, his hands over his eyes, which had expanded to the size of a dinner plate - Snape was trying to restore calm and find out what had happened. Through the confusion, Harry saw Hermione slip quietly into Snape's office." > With that bit of cannon, I would suggest that Snape's office adjoins the dungeon, otherwise Hermione would have had a job leaving to go somewhere completely different. It would have been too obvious if someone had had to open and shut a door just after that. Therefore, for her to do it quietly so Snape wouldn't notice, I guess that the door must have been open. > Similarly, it would be a lot easier for someone who is going to make potions to have cauldrons easily accessible and not to have to go to two separate places. > My 2 knuts. > Betty bboy_mn replies: Here is what I was basing my difference of opinion on - CoS: Ch 5: Setting: Snape has found Harry and Ron outside the Great Hall just after they crashed the Flying Car. "Follow me," said Snape. Not daring to look at each other..... but Snape lead the way from the warmth and the light (of the Great Hall), down a narrow stone staircase that led to the dungeons. "In!" he said, opeing a door halfway down the cold passageway and pointing. They entered Snapes off, shivering. The shadowy walls were lined with large glass jars, ...(describes office) .. the fireplace was dark and empty. Snape closed the door and looked at them. -End Quote- If Rowling is trying to give us a clear visual image of Snape's office then I think it proximity to the potions classroom or attachment to the potions classroom would have been significant enough to mention. I can't believe that THIS office is In, Near, or Attached to the potions classroom. If it is, I don't see how Rowling could not mention that fact in her narrative. It's just too important a detail to be left out. While I'm sure that Snape has an office area in the potions classroom in which he keeps his student restricted supplies, I still think his main private office is in another area of the dungeons, and in this office, he keep his private personal stock of ingredients. I think this other private office is the office that Moody/Couch was searching. Admittedly, I'm filling in a lot of blanks with assumptions. Just some thoughts. bboy_mn From alina at distantplace.net Tue Sep 3 01:54:25 2002 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 21:54:25 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and the Phoenix References: Message-ID: <00f701c252ec$d53b7bc0$4a112b18@shprd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43519 ----- Original Message ----- From: "emma_look_alike" > > Dumbledore said: 'Only a true Gryffindor could pull that out of the > hat, Harry' (or something like that) -SS/PS. Maybe he was ALSO > refering to only a true DESCENDANT of Gryffindor could have pulled > that out of the hat. That theory can be supporting by the fact that the word "Gryffindor" has two meanings. It is the name of a House, but also a last name. If Harry is the descendant of GG then Dumbledore could've used the second meaning of the word, not bothering to explain it to Harry. Alina of Distant Place http://www.distantplace.net/ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release Date: 02/08/2002 From rvotaw at i-55.com Tue Sep 3 02:13:00 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 21:13:00 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wand symbolism and Re: Harry and the Phoenix References: <00f701c252ec$d53b7bc0$4a112b18@shprd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <009201c252ef$6decebe0$449dcdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 43520 First, I've been thinking (oh no!) about wands and wood symbolisms. Unfortunately, we don't really know the woods of many of the wands. But I'll work with what we've got. Harry's wand is Holly. Holly is used to ask "Am I forgotten?" which makes sense. It also means foresight. Hagrid's wand was oak. Oak stands for hospitality (he is quite hospitable to Harry) and independence. Also known for strength. Lily's wand (first wand, but the only one we know anything about) was willow. Willow is a symbol of mourning. Less commonly, forsaken love. Hmm. I won't go there. :) Cedric's wand was ash. Ash is a symbol of prudence. That suits him as well. Voldemort's wand is yew. Yew is a symbol of sadness. He has caused plenty of sadness, sure. I'm sure he experienced a good bit as well, at least back when he was Tom Riddle the orphan. Ron's wand is willow. Mourning, forsaken love. Oh, dear. James' wand is Mahogany. Can't for the life of me find out what that means. Anyone know? Well, in other things: > > From: "emma_look_alike" > > Dumbledore said: 'Only a true Gryffindor could pull that out of the > > hat, Harry' (or something like that) -SS/PS. Maybe he was ALSO > > refering to only a true DESCENDANT of Gryffindor could have pulled > > that out of the hat. Alina of Distant Place wrote: > That theory can be supporting by the fact that the word "Gryffindor" has two > meanings. It is the name of a House, but also a last name. If Harry is the > descendant of GG then Dumbledore could've used the second meaning of the > word, not bothering to explain it to Harry. Err, aren't all of the house names also last names? Salazar Slytherin, Godric Gryffindor, Helga Hufflepuff and Rowena Ravenclaw? Richelle From mcarlin at ev1.net Tue Sep 3 01:24:22 2002 From: mcarlin at ev1.net (Megan Carlin) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 20:24:22 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hogwarts: A tight schedule/ Timetable Challenge! References: Message-ID: <008b01c252e8$a4107ef0$8000a8c0@tom> No: HPFGUIDX 43521 I have been reading along this thread for awhile, and something occurred to mean. It really doesn't have to do specifically with Penny Lane's post but it was a sort of catalyst for me to actually post to it. Alright here's a short question, in regards to all the mathematics going on in this thread (I always was bad at maths hehe). My question is, who's to say that the students only go to school five days a week? I can't remember offhand, so I'll read into it and maybe some people can inform me on the thread that I'm wrong. But I can't seem to recall any evidence that there were only five school days. That would certainly give the teachers more time to spend teaching even more classes. cpennylane12 wrote: > If classes begin at 9, and end at 6, with 1 hour for lunch... then > they are getting approximatly 8 hours of class a day, which > means 40 hours a week. Each teacher has time to teach 8 one > hour class a day... <> If you say 8 hours more a day of teaching/class time that's 16 extra classes in a weekend! (though I doubt they wouldn't deprive them of at least one day off a week). <> cpennylane12 also wrote: > Friday Mornings they have Herbology and Transfiguration. (pg. > 197 US ) > > On the 1st day of classes they have db. Herbology w/ Hufflepuffs > ( pg 91) then they go directly to Transfiguation ( pg 94). After > Transfiguation, they have Lunch, then they go to Defense against > the Dark Arts. (pg 98) After all not all schools/countries have the same standards for what makes a school week. When I was in boarding school in the U.S. years ago we only went to school for a total of five hours a day. In public school we went about six. I've read articles (mostly by those trying to up the hours for school and they number of days a week for American public schools) that show some countries average 10 hours a day of schooling (that's 10 more classes a week!). And a few countries I've read about go to school on Saturdays as well. (a total of 20 classes a week more if we assume they school on Saturdays) Like I said, there may be evidence in the books that blows my theory out of the water. I need to pour through the books again and see if I can find it. I appreciate any thoughts... Schoolingly, Megan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Sep 3 02:40:10 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (bboy_mn) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 02:40:10 -0000 Subject: Harry and the Phoenix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43522 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "emma_look_alike" wrote: > I am a *huge* fan that Harry is the heir of Gryffindor. I sincerely > think that that is the reason Voldemort tried to kill him; ie The > rivalry of Salazar and Godric. Harry is the last remaining descendant > of Gryffindor and Voldemort/Tom Riddle is the last remaining > descendant of Slytherin. Though highly unlikely as many other posts > have said, anything's possible in fantasy books. > > Also, Voldemort DEFINETLEY did not mind killing James, but he said > that Lily didn't have to die. Why? Lily wasn't a descendant of Godric > Gryffindor, Harry got it from his Dad's side. > > Dumbledore said: 'Only a true Gryffindor could pull that out of the > hat, Harry' (or something like that) -SS/PS. Maybe he was ALSO > referring to only a true DESCENDANT of Gryffindor could have pulled > that out of the hat. > > The last reenforcement I have is that the Potters lived in Godric's > hollow. Perhaps another hint? > > Almost certainly this subject has been picked to death already, but I > love it. I really think Harry is the heir. > > "emma_look_alike" Some general thought on Heirs and Descendants that have been accumulating in my head as this subject has been discussed at various times. None of this is especially new or original, more like expanded thoughts on the subject. First there is the whole heir vs descendant problem. What constitutes an heir and what constitutes a descendant. I won't get into dictionary definition, instead let me illustrate by example. Many people have said that after 1,000 years in the small wizard world, there must be drops of Gryffindor blood all over the place. So, let's look at the Royal Family of Britain as an example. There are cousins and uncles and all kinds of people who can trace the heritage back to the roots of the Windsor family, but they are neither the descendants of the Royal Family nor the heir to the Royal Family. Right now Prince William, the first born, is the crown prince and heir to the throne, his younger brother, Prince Henry (Harry) is nothing 'to the throne'. The next heir will be the son or daughter of William. So even as close as Prince Henry/Harry is, he and his children will never be the 'heirs' to the throne. The only exception is, if Prince William's blood line dies out, although it would have to die soon or their would be too many descendants directly under William who could claim the throne. Poor Prince Henry/Harry, him and his descendants forever doomed to be second best, although filthy rich, which is not so bad. So my point is that while there may be many branches to the Gryffindor tree, the is only one branch that is the direct descendance of Heirs to the Gryffindor legacy. Just as people very directly related to the Royal Family get chopped off the tree of descendants of heir as in Prince Henry/Harry's case, so to do branches of the Gryffindor tree that do not contain DIRECT descendant of heirs. It goes without saying that the name Gryffindor gets lost when the direct descendant and heir is a woman who marries. The line of direct descendants and heirs continues, but the original family name is lost. Blood vs Choices- There seems to be a belief that if Harry is the Gryffindor heir that this cancels out Dumbledore's statement that choices are more important than blood. But I don't see it that way. Let's face it, there are people born to the roll of king or queen who are scum, in many cases possessing only marginal sanity. Again, illustrated by the Royal Family; Prince William could though choices rebel and become a self-centered egotistical drunken carousing obnoxious lout, but he has instead chosen to live his life with some pride, dignity, modesty, and service to others. I think he's a pretty cool guy, although time will tell. Prince Henry on the other hand, I worry about. Has to be hard to spend a lifetime standing in his brother's shadow, but that's a discussion for a different group. No matter how Royal your blood, no matter how spectacular your inherited talents, your life is still ruled by the choices you make with a dash of luck and fate thrown in. Very talented men have died in the gutter, their talents squandered and wasted. Harry could be heir to Gryffindor and the Crown Prince of England, and who and what he is and becomes rest solely on the choices he makes. I think Harry is being contrasted to Draco who believes he is born to privilege. He believes things are automatically and unquestionable due him, because of his blood. Dumbledore's message to Harry is that you have to earn your 'privilege' in life no matter what you blood. Final point, blood and choices are not mutually exclusive. The Chosen One- This is also a valid option and comon in fairytales. It could be that among all the drops of Gryffindor blood out there, the chosen one, the crown prince is selected or predicted perhaps by the reading of the stars, or the Gryffindor who purely and unselfishly displays the characteristics of a true Gryffindor, or perhaps by searching and finding the 'holy grail'; the completion of a quest, or perhaps by the approval, bond, and friendship of a gold and red pheonix. Again, the point is here, that the Heir to Gryffindor could be a 'chosen one' selected not by purity of blood or direct descendance but by being the purest, truest, and noblest Gryffindor at heart. Kind of romanic, don't you think? This 'Chosen One' theory doesn't discount choices, because Harry still has to choose and live by the pure, true and noble character of Gryffindor. Just some thoughts. bboy_mn From mikezitz at charter.net Tue Sep 3 05:26:32 2002 From: mikezitz at charter.net (interstate999) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 05:26:32 -0000 Subject: Harry and the Phoenix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43523 Ok, we have gone into great detail about the descendents, heirs, bloodlines, and to top it off "the chosen one theory". IMO, Harry will be the heir to Gryffindor by one of two theories: 1. Harry can become, or anyone for that matter, if their heart is pure and brave. Bloodlines have little or nothing to do with it. And just for the sake of it, lets say Fawkes determines who should wear that crown based on who he decides his master should be. I like this theory the best, mainly from the passage in CoS when Dumbledore explains why he, "Harry", is in Gryffindor and not Slytherin based on the choices we make in life. 2. Harry's bloodline on his father's side is the direct descendants of Gryffindor for whatever reason. Just to make is juicy, lets say Voldy, "The Home Wrecker", needed to kill off James and Harry by some prophecy of a seer. Now everyone says this just cannot be true because Dumbledore must the descendant of Gryffindor. Who says Dumbledore is the heir, just because he has a pet Phoenix that may have belonged to Gryffindor doesn't mean a thing. We already know that Dumbledore had at least one possession in his care that James had left for Harry. We also know that James and Lilly came into a roll of dough somehow that was left to Harry after they passed. Surely two people that had a small fortune would also possess a few magical objects that would be worth a few dollars other than a cloak. I doubt that James decided to only to pack up a cloak that he left with Dumbledore to pass onto Harry just on the chance he might die. Hmm, this is why we make wills. Actual, I assumed, boy that word can get you into some hot water around here, that Dumbledore picked up as many valuables of Lilly & James he could find after they died. Or two, he directed someone(s) to clean out the potters home after VD paid a visit and place those objects in safe keeping until Dumbledore thought Harry was old enough to have those possessions back. This helps to explain a little of what happened during those missing 24 hours. Without much thought, we can assume what would have happened to them if they were given to the Dursley's for safe keeping. With that in mind, if James had a pet Phoenix, Hmm we need a name, ok let's say the birds name was "Fawkes", this magical bird would be basically homeless. I doubt 1 year old Harry would be up to the task of feeding him, nor would anyone else at the Dursley's. Now we have a bird that needs a home until Harry reaches an age that he can care for it. Who better else than Dumbledore? Not to mention, JK said Harry might get another pet! Wow, did I get side tracked, I was going to post about something else but in the heat of the moment I forgot where this was going. Mike Zitzmann Hammond, LA. From olivia at rocketbandit.com Tue Sep 3 02:08:42 2002 From: olivia at rocketbandit.com (Olivia) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 22:08:42 -0400 Subject: Hogwarts: A tight schedule In-Reply-To: <008b01c252e8$a4107ef0$8000a8c0@tom> Message-ID: <000401c252ee$d3a81fa0$9ca2e3d8@agstme.adelphia.net> No: HPFGUIDX 43524 I also have been reading along with this thread since it was started and think it's a fascinating topic. I can only offer two suggestions: 1. I believe this has been brought up, but it's very possible that Ms. Rowling simply didn't take the time to go through the math. As a writer myself, I can vouch for the fact that not all authors plan out every detail such as this. 2. We don't know all the teachers at Hogwarts. Some of them have been mentioned only very briefly like Professor Sinistra -- we don't even know if it's a man or a woman -- and it's possible that there may be more teachers who aren't even talked about. We're seeing Hogwarts from Harry's fairly limited point-of-view. He's only been through four years and obviously doesn't take all the classes that are available. As I was reading Goblet of Fire this evening, I caught something that makes me think that there are more teachers. As Harry is looking over the staff table at the Start-of-Term feast, he describes Professor Sinistra as the "head of the Astronomy department." Maybe the staff table is for the heads of departments and there are in fact more teachers at Hogwarts that teach under the other teachers. There isn't A LOT of information to support this, but I don't think it can't be entirely ruled out. Olivia From dark30 at vcn.bc.ca Tue Sep 3 04:41:40 2002 From: dark30 at vcn.bc.ca (tbernhard2000) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 04:41:40 -0000 Subject: Truth, light, knowledge, the WWF, Dickens and Trelawney Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43525 Responding to Eileen, Carol, and Porphyria. Thanks to the group for the feedback on this topic, which is so obviously important to me. I need to make one thing clear, however. I am not, in any way, attacking either the books, which I read, and read to my 6 year old son, or their popularity. (I'm even at Schnoogle, under darkthirty, of course.) Nor do I expect "realism" from them, in some large philosophical sense. What I practise is what I consider a realistic adult reading of them, especially in regard to the treatment of "truth" in the canon. If the reference to Grindelwald, so early in the book, indeed, at the first mention of Dumbledore, bothers me on one level, it is because Rowling chose to put the reference there. We have just found out how bad wizards can get. And then, there is this Wizard card. Eileen I think it's time for Tolkien and Lewis. darkthirty As I pointed out in my email to you, a copy of which I didn't keep (I hate webmail forms that can't be recovered... my mistake) Tolkien was writing about a completely different world, he didn't throw in little references to Ten-pin bowling or plug-collecting, and Middle Earth was not a hop, floo or platform from "our" world. There are significant differences between the stories. Tolkien was loathe to admit any reference at all to "our" present world, loathe to admit any level of allegory. Rowling's story not only makes these references, they are central elements of the plot! Her witch/wizard world depends on the muggle world. They are parallel. This is quite significant, in more ways than one. Eileen I think it's important to make clear that this "abstemiousness from truth" is not a hallmark of Harry Potter only, but of most fiction, especially that which we know as fantasy or fairy tales. darkthirty There is no abstemiousness from truth in Tolkien. There is, rather, an over-abundance of it, volumes worth. The hobbits' allies spend a great amount of time and energy trying to hammer the real state (and real estate, as it were) of Middle Earth into their heads. Knowledge becomes very important to the fellowship. Knowledge weighs down all of them in the end, but lack of it would have been their demise. Not so Potter. Knowledge comes "after the fact." Carol My only answer to that is that the books are not reality. They are fiction. And not just any kind of fiction, but specifically fantasy. How real should a fantasy have to be? Eileen We, the readers, in this understanding, are reading and creating this world in protest and escape against our world, against reality. C.S. Lewis "The dangerous fantasy is always superficially realistic... The one is an askesis, a spiritual exercise, and the other is a disease." darkthirty Well, this seems a bit dangerous to me, in the context of this thread. I wouldn't necessarily put it that way, but now you mention it, perhaps I do perceive something in the "spiritual exercise" that doesn't fully appreciate exactly how much, or exactly what, belief is being "suspended." A realistic reading of the books seems to require the knowledge of what beliefs one is suspending. Rowling tosses asides about "our" world, posits a universe where "our" world and a parallel magical world exist side-by-side, and in this context, places a boy who seems "destined." That to me seems a context that could be perceived as compromising and compromised, not only within the story, but in the larger context of the books' popularity. They are popular, I hazard, because they compromise. We desire a world where our "deepest desires" hold sway, a world where we just *are* whatever. "Just Harry." This is nothing like Lewis' or Tolkien's worlds. Just being Frodo doesn't mean a thing. Eileen If one wants to believe that Joy does not exist... darkthirty But Erised and the dialogue around it made it clear that the thesis being presented, in contradiction to the actual treatment of truth in books, was that Erised was a fraud. Erised becomes useful only when Potter has, in the context of the books, dropped the fantasy. My reading is that the real fantasy exists on a much deeper level. My reading also doesn't find much joy in the Potter books, or rather, it finds joy, so far, only in the pathos of someone sustaining this fantasy, which makes life livable, in the face of facts, of evidence, of truth. Harry's apparent love for Sirius, for instance, is unconvincing. Hermione's love for Harry is quite convincing, or Cho's for Cedric. The books are more adult disguising themselves as children's books than children's books appealing to the adult. The very age of the characters is the key here. "Wish I'd gone to school at a place like that, where merely saying something would make it so." Etc. Why are we grown-ups so interested in this school? Why is all the fan fiction about ships? There seems to be an advanced strain of "unconditional love wish fulfilment" going around. Besides, of all the things I could say about Harry's character, the only one I feel confident about is that he is "without malice," at least in the fantasy world. In my reading, this is far more important than "joy." In my reading, Harry is, in fact, a greater hero than he could ever possibly be in the magical world of the books. Carol She writes in such a simple style, with lots of humor, but underneath it all lie plenty of serious questions about life. darkthirty Exactly. I am trying to point to the very serious question of the relationship between what we are, for instance, and what we know. We know the world is horrifying and terrible. Are we? As support for this, I refer to the houses. They are all *in* Hogwarts'. And just how is my reading denying there are serious questions? A fantasy world, even in the pathological sense, or especially in the pathological sense, is full of serious questions. "Harry and the trio will succeed whether or not those around them attempt to keep them in the dark, to impose, in a way, ignorance upon them? Do we really believe Harry's successful encounters so far have been written beforehand, and the outcome assured?" Carol Does this ultimately matter? Isn't that a question about life in general, not just the HP series? darkthirty On the one hand, I get the impression that my reading makes some think I expect something of Rowling's "world" that I don't find there. This is just not true. I am stating what I do find there. A sense that, in spite of everything, Harry is "destined" to succeed, so far. Of course it matters. This group spends a lot of time debating the possible reasons Voldemort wanted Harry dead, for example. They debate what, about Harry's destiny, is the issue. And all this talk about Trelawney's other prediction. (What I really think her other prediction was was that once, when she heard Dumbledore was going bowling in town, she said he'd bowl three strikes on his last game, which he did.) Now, being a secular Calvinist, I believe in a sort of fate, not the debased idea of it that permeates popular culture, mind, but a subtler and more intricate working. Calvin advocated for, and built, secular universities, because he believed real, unconstrained knowledge would also illuminate the spiritual - they weren't contradictory regions of truth at all. Just as there were these forces, for lack of a better term, in nature, so there were these forces in people. I agree, basically, sans religion. Carol I don't think Dumbledore knew just how bad the Dursleys would be to Harry. darkthirty But Dumbledore had "learned" of how bad they were. And still sent him back. Carol One method of literary criticism is to see a text as a reflection of an author's subconscious. I think this can be fun and interesting, but I don't think it adds all that much to an understanding of the text. darkthirty But Carol, what is an understanding of the text? Are you suggesting that *only* debates about Crouch's mark (?), Moody's (?) foe glass, Voldemort's reason for wanting Harry dead, the houses to which the Marauders belonged etc. etc. add "understanding" to the text? I cannot accept this. My reading, indeed, is exactly the opposite of this. 1500 pages. That's all we have. We should have cleared up all the bits long ago. Instead of looking at the world of the books as self- contained, which, as I have pointed out a few times now, Rowling herself plots against, I can only look at them as they really are - that is, extremely popular with all ages, with some fearful continuity problems, lots of humour, very horrifying and very touching moments, and a plethora of difficulties, in terms of "serious" ideas. If I am talking about anyone's "subconscious," I am talking about the adult readers'. This is completely tied to the canon, it is not some comment about fantasy books in general. Porphyria's reading of darkthirty there is something particularly self-contained, nearly solipcistic about Harry, and that the world of the books is extremely walled off from the real world.... the HP books have a particular aversion towards knowledge that merits some analysis... the usefulness of knowledge must cede, must fail, to make room for the supremacy of will power, love, loyalty and other qualities internal to the hero -- feelings that would sustain an abused boy but still preserve his protective fantasy. darkthirty Wish I could write that clearly Porphyria What saves him is his extraordinary strength of will with the Priori Incantatem effect. darkthirty That event is the best example of a particular part of the reading. It's like the WWF (which I do NOT watch!) (Snape as the Undertaker?) Scripted in the heart, but on, well, a somewhat different level than the WWF, less beer and more herbal tea. But like the WWF anyway. I stand by that. Porphyria the narrative makes it physically, iconically clear that *Hemione's logic will enable Harry to pass to the next level, but she herself must at that point cede the heroic function to him.* darkthirty I would merely add that this observation, though to the point, and wonderfully put, doesn't quite give the same emphasis I would give it. That is, it is at this point that Harry must dispense with Hermione, her logic, his dependance upon her and it. I would, that is to say, put the active focus upon Harry. Even though the book "reads" more like yours. Porphyria We see evidence of Harry's intellectual nonchalance in a variety of tiny details. Harry isn't insightful or curious unless a life is at stake. darkthirty Unless he perceives a life is at stake. His perception is coloured by ignorance. It's funny, but the biggest oversight, I thought, was his not asking about the darned socks! Really. It was such a Parsifal moment. I kept thinking - "oh, Harry will know why Voldemort tried to kill him when he's able to ask Dumbledore about the socks." Funny. Porphyria qualities found in fantasy, desire and strength of will. They are touching, inspiring, but still trapped in a self-contained view of the world; the don't address the outer world of logic and learning, but the inner one of the heart. darkthirty My reference to perhaps the most famous book about "educating the heart," as one critic saw it, David Copperfield, was a bit to casual, perhaps. I just hope Draco doesn't turn out to be Ron's and Ginny's Steerforth, though Arthur's a fair Macawber, Neville a pretty good Traddles, Hermione does seem a bit Agnes, Figg a bit Betsy... well, you get the point. darkthirty From arondiel at yahoo.com Tue Sep 3 06:04:26 2002 From: arondiel at yahoo.com (arondiel) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 06:04:26 -0000 Subject: Out of the frying pan, into the fire Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43526 Hi, I'm new here. :) I've gone through the archive but I was unable to find the answer to my question. As some have expressed confusion over what Hermione slapping Draco meant, I'm confused by the intended meaning of Petunia and the frying pan scene in CoS. "Harry paid dearly for his moment of fun. As neither Dudley nor the hedge was in any way hurt, Aunt Petunia knew he hadn't really done magic, but he still had to duck as she aimed a heavy blow at his head with the soapy frying pan. Then she gave him work with the promise he wouldn't eat again until he'd finished." (10, CoS, American) What do you think JKR intended the readers to feel toward this scene? For instance, I'm sure she intended the Ten Ton Toffee scene to be funny not cruel and for the Twins to be seen as funny not as bully's even though those interpretations can be made. But I don't think she *intended* them to be seen that way. Harry does not seem to take the situation that seriously. He does not think that Petunia really intends to hurt him. Are we, the reader, supposed to take this as a typical Petunia overreacting to a situation? Is there supposed to be a humorous component here as there is when we see Petunia bursting in joyful tears over Dudley's `Mr. Mason is my hero' speech? Are we supposed to take this as subtle evidence of physical abuse? I'm just confused on how to react to this scene. Your thoughts are appreciated, Arondiel From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Tue Sep 3 08:14:48 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (grey_wolf_c) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 08:14:48 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts: A tight schedule In-Reply-To: <000401c252ee$d3a81fa0$9ca2e3d8@agstme.adelphia.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43527 Megan Carlin wrote: > I have been reading along this thread for awhile, and something occurred to mean. It really doesn't have to do specifically with Penny Lane's post but it was a sort of catalyst for me to actually post to it. > > Alright here's a short question, in regards to all the > mathematics going on in this thread (I always was bad at maths > hehe). My question is, who's to say that the students only go to > school five days a week? I can't remember offhand, so I'll read > into it and maybe some people can inform me on the thread that > I'm wrong. But I can't seem to recall any evidence that there were > only five school days. That would certainly give the teachers > more time to spend teaching even more classes. If you read my original post (#43419) of this thread, you may notice that one of the possibilities I did the math for was for a 6-day week. No indication is given that they have class on Sunday, but I would findly increadible if it happened that they DID have class on Sunday. None of the countries I know in Europe (and least of them, England) have class on Sundays, and I'd find it very strange in did if JKR had introduced that particular idea. The problem, however, goes further. Canon points out that clases don't happen on Saturdays either (or at least, they get some of them free), since Quidditch matches happen on Saturday mornings, and Harry visits Hagrid on Saturday afternoons. It only stands to reason. AFAIK, the only country that has class on Saturdays is France, and is only half-day anyway, and yet they have the same number of hours the other coutries have, because they get a half-day one of the week-days (Wednesday, in my case). Olivia wrote: > I also have been reading along with this thread since it was started > and think it's a fascinating topic. I can only offer two suggestions: > > 1. I believe this has been brought up, but it's very possible that > Ms. Rowling simply didn't take the time to go through the math. As a > writer myself, I can vouch for the fact that not all authors plan out > every detail such as this. Olivia, we KNOW for sure that he didn't go over the maths: she has said so herself any number of times in interviews. However, some of the people on the list (like myself) like to try and iron out all the blatant errors of the books by setting up theories to explain what is going on as if it was a non-fiction instead of a fantasy. Check the thread on the number of students and Hogwarts, for example, to see those people in action, trying to come up with ways of Hogwarts having 280 students and 1000 students at the same time. > 2. We don't know all the teachers at Hogwarts. Some of them have been > mentioned only very briefly like Professor Sinistra -- we don't even > know if it's a man or a woman -- and it's possible that there may be > more teachers who aren't even talked about. We're seeing Hogwarts > from Harry's fairly limited point-of-view. He's only been through > four years and obviously doesn't take all the classes that are > available. Sinistra is a woman in my translated edition, if that helps. And don't think there are that many teachers. In fact, we know how many there probably are: 12. > As I was reading Goblet of Fire this evening, I caught something that > makes me think that there are more teachers. As Harry is looking over > the staff table at the Start-of-Term feast, he describes Professor > Sinistra as the "head of the Astronomy department." Maybe the staff > table is for the heads of departments and there are in fact more > teachers at Hogwarts that teach under the other teachers. There isn't > A LOT of information to support this,but I don't think it can't be > entirely ruled out. > > Olivia Other people have suggested that the teachers we know of are only heads of departments and that the classes are given out by lesser teachers so they can find time. However, this clashes directly with the fact that Harry has NEVER been teached by any other teacher than the ones attending the parties and ceremonies. If there are, indeed, other teachers at Hogwarts, they are very well hidden. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf, who can accept that no-one mentions other campus at Hogwarts, because he sees it happen in his own school and University, but cannot accept that Harry has missed mentioning he had different teachers for the same class. From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Tue Sep 3 08:35:16 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (grey_wolf_c) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 08:35:16 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's goals (WAS: Wizarding culture/ attitude to arms) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43528 MariaJ wrote: > Let me go off on a different tangent: Voldemort is supposed to be > this big threat, right? He's not out to destroy the world or anything > like that, but he does want to take over. Or something. I have to > admit I'm a bit hazy on what Voldemort actually wants, except kill > Harry, harass muggles and, eh, humiliate his Death Eaters. Voldemort says that his two main goals are immortality and taking over the world, in that order. In fact, what he *really* wants is immortality. Of course, once you *have* immortality, you'd better get some interesting hobby (like opera) to help you pass the unending boredom of eternal life. Voldemort isn't the sort of person that enjoys listening to music, he's the sort of person that enjoys *power*, so it's power what he wants, and thus puts himself a goal thqat will take a long time: taking over the world. Oh, and my favourite theory, MAGIC DISHWASHER (::waits for groans and "not again"s sounds in the background to fade::) explains that, unlikely as it may be, Voldemort is able to take over the WW, and nearly had in the days before the First Fall (what is known as the Reign of Terror). At the time, he was trying to get a social breakdown that would allow him to remodel a meek society, chained into submission by terror, and put himself on top of it. I'd imagine that, after that, he would turn his attention to other countries. Now that he's made a comeback, we don't know what his plans are, but after a casual observation of the circunstances, I think that his best plan would be to promote Lucius Malfoy's ascent to the position of head of the MoM, since Fudge is going to be thrown out of his office in a short while: if he hasn't said publicly yet that Voldemort has NOT returned (as oposed to Harry's declarations), he will, sooner or later, and when the evidence in favour of LV's return piles up, Fudge's incompetence is going to be so obvious he'll have to resign (or will be thrown out of the office), at which point, LV could grab power through a dummy politician. > Now, if his > objective really is to take over the world (i.e. Britain) then sooner > or later muggles will become aware of this.It's not as if the Good > Guys can run around making Memory Charms on everyone who's seen > something, then they won't have any time to actually fight against > Voldemort, which has to be the top priority after all. > > MariaJ During the Reign of Terror, we are told that the wizards were able to keep the situation down (then again, at that time, muggle England had problems of terrorism of its own, so it wouldn't be too dificult to pass some of the muggle killings as IRA attacks). It is true that if Voldemort doesn't change his modus operandi (and there is nothing that indicates he should or will), this time around the MoM is going to have more difficulties to keep the situation a secret. However, we do know that the MoM has contacts with the British muggle goverment. Maybe they can work somthing out through them. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From doffy99 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 3 08:42:58 2002 From: doffy99 at yahoo.com (doffy99) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 08:42:58 -0000 Subject: Harry and the Phoenix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43529 "emma_look_alike" wrote: > I am a *huge* fan that Harry is the heir of Gryffindor. I sincerly > think that that is the reason Voldemort tried to kill him; ie The > rivalry of Salazar and Godric. Harry is the last remaining descendant > of Gryffindor and Voldemort/Tom Riddle is the last remaining > descendant of Slytherin. Though highly unlikely as many other posts > have said, anything's possible in fantasy books. Why is this unlikely? Has there ever been mention, I don't remember it if there was, of how many wizards were killed during Voldemorts last reign of terror? Could he not been purposely going AFTER the Heir of Gryffindor? Maybe James and Harry Potter were the last ones? Maybe he had killed all the others. My Theory: As everyone is guessing, Trelawney made the prediction. Possibly while in school, at Hogwarts, with Tom Riddle. (She was the Lavender Brown of her day. Worshipped her Divination teacher) The Divination teacher was teaching them, Trewlawney, then a student along with Riddle, makes this prediction IN CLASS! In front of Riddle. That one day, the Hier of Gryffindor would kill the hier of Slytherin. (This leads to MANY many philosophical questions such as "Did the Prediction make itself come true?" By predicting it, Tom Riddle who knew already he was the heir of Slytherin, realized he HAD to turn evil, find the Hier's of Gryffindor and kill them, before they could kill him. A Self fulfilling prophecy) Tom Riddle turns evil so he can assure his own survival by killing the heirs of Gryffindor. His entire "War" on the WW was to save his own life. He purposely set out to kill the Gryffindor hiers. James and Harry Potter were the last ones. That how James KNEW that Voldemort would be coming after him and why he and Lily took Harry and went into hiding. Sybil Trelawney caused it all. :)) It works! Anyone else?? -Jeff From pen at pensnest.co.uk Tue Sep 3 09:13:43 2002 From: pen at pensnest.co.uk (Pen Robinson) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 10:13:43 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and the Phoenix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <71BFEF6A-BF1D-11D6-82E3-0030654DED6A@pensnest.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 43530 On Tuesday, September 3, 2002, at 03:40 , bboy_mn wrote: > > Many people have said that after 1,000 years in the small wizard > world, there must be drops of Gryffindor blood all over the place. So, > let's look at the Royal Family of Britain as an example. There are > cousins and uncles and all kinds of people who can trace the heritage > back to the roots of the Windsor family, but they are neither the > descendants of the Royal Family nor the heir to the Royal Family. > Right now Prince William, the first born, is the crown prince and heir > to the throne, his younger brother, Prince Henry (Harry) is nothing > 'to the throne'. The next heir will be the son or daughter of William. > So even as close as Prince Henry/Harry is, he and his children will > never be the 'heirs' to the throne. The only exception is, if Prince > William's blood line dies out, although it would have to die soon or > their would be too many descendants directly under William who could > claim the throne. Poor Prince Henry/Harry, him and his descendants > forever doomed to be second best, although filthy rich, which is not > so bad. Sorry, I've got a compulsive urge to nitpick here. Right now, Prince William is second in line to the throne. The heir is Prince Charles, his father - unless the Queen died and nobody told me. Prince Harry, Charles' second son, is third in line. After him comes Prince Andrew (the Queen's second son), then his two daughters, then Prince Edward, then Princess Anne followed by her children. Then it hops over to the children of Princess Margaret (the second child of King George VI), and so forth. It is perfectly possible for Prince Harry to become the heir to the throne. If Prince William predeceases him without producing any offspring, Harry will be next in line after Charles. If Prince William becomes King before he has any children, Harry will be the heir - I think the 'heir presumptive' - until such time as William's firstborn comes along. However, it is also clear that there are lots of descendants of, say, George V, who will never actually be called upon to reign. The further back you go (try Victoria - eep!) the vaster the net of descendants is, and although they will all, in theory, be somewhere in line for the throne (746th, or whatever), in practice it doesn't matter. This is where you get your 'people who can trace the heritage back to the roots of the Windsor family'. However, the direct line is what counts. The direct line is not, necessarily, a straightforward father-to-son descent. It can be broken - the king before George VI (Elizabeth II's father) was his brother, Edward VIII, who abdicated. And of course, the present Queen was daughter to the previous King, who had no sons. In the case of Queen Victoria, the previous generation of kings went from brother to brother among George III's sons, few of whom managed to produce any legitimate offspring, before reaching Victoria who was the daughter of, er, one of the junior brothers. But there is a strong 'fantasy' tradition that the direct line is a direct line - and that only the sons count (cf Aragorn, son of Arathorn, etc, in LotR, or Eddings' Belgariad, for examples), so that a daughter's children don't count as being in the direct line. In this tradition, it would be reasonable for those descended from Godric Gryffindor's daughters not to be in the running for the 'Heir of Gryffindor' tag. Pen From heidit at netbox.com Tue Sep 3 09:30:04 2002 From: heidit at netbox.com (heidit at netbox.com) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 05:30:04 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and the Phoenix Message-ID: <1b9.5c7e6db.2aa5db1c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43531 In a message dated 9/3/2002 5:20:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, pen at pensnest.co.uk writes: > In this > tradition, it would be reasonable for those descended from Godric > Gryffindor's daughters not to be in the running for the 'Heir of > Gryffindor' tag. Would that be feasible even if we've seen that on the Slytherin line, the descent goes through Tom Riddle's mother? It's something not unheard of in British history - didn't Henry Tudor claim the throne by dint of lineage on both parents' sides? - or are you just saying that a woman can't be the "heir" but her son can be? Or are you saying that having a daughter ends the line in that particular branch of the family tree? heidi [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Tue Sep 3 09:36:36 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (grey_wolf_c) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 09:36:36 -0000 Subject: Harry and the Phoenix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43532 Jeff wrote: > "emma_look_alike" wrote: > > I am a *huge* fan that Harry is the heir of Gryffindor. I sincerly > > think that that is the reason Voldemort tried to kill him; ie The > > rivalry of Salazar and Godric. Harry is the last remaining > descendant > > of Gryffindor and Voldemort/Tom Riddle is the last remaining > > descendant of Slytherin. Though highly unlikely as many other posts > > have said, anything's possible in fantasy books. > > Why is this unlikely? Has there ever been mention, I don't remember > it if there was, of how many wizards were killed during Voldemorts > last reign of terror? Could he not been purposely going AFTER the > Heir of Gryffindor? Maybe James and Harry Potter were the last ones? > Maybe he had killed all the others. > > -Jeff It's unlikely because "descendent" is a very generic term. To put it mathematically: if Godric had two sons, and they had two sons each, etc., there would be in our days 2^40 descendants of Godric Gryffindor (that's 1 million million, a thousand billion (trillion?), for Americans). It's not such a stretch of the mind that they had two sons each; in fact, the average number of sons is probably bigger. Obviously, there aren't that many people in the WW (or the world, for that matter), but that is because some die childless, others leave the country, and others simply don't make it. However, the fact is that "descendency" is a very general concept, and after 40 generations, almost everyone in the country could be a theorical descendant of Gryffindor. If Voldemort was going for descendents, he would've had to eliminate everyone. Besides, after 40 generations it's normally very difficult to know exactly who is a dscendant and who isn't. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From lupinesque at yahoo.com Tue Sep 3 10:08:01 2002 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (lupinesque) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 10:08:01 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts: A tight schedule In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43533 Olivia wrote: > > My question is, who's to say that the students only go to > > school five days a week? I can't remember offhand, so I'll read > > into it and maybe some people can inform me on the thread that > > I'm wrong. But I can't seem to recall any evidence that there were > > only five school days. That would certainly give the teachers > > more time to spend teaching even more classes. Good thought. We have to work out the timetable based on scattered clues, and though there is no statement anywhere that there are no classes on weekends, there are various canon indications that lead to that conclusion. Grey Wolf has pointed out the Saturday Quidditch matches and visits to Hagrid; Saturday is also the day of Hogsmeade visits (the first one in PoA seems to be on a Sunday: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/calendar_pa.html); Sundays we see in detail seem to be lesson-free (cf GF 28). Grey Wolf wrote: > Olivia, we KNOW for sure that he didn't go over the maths: she has said > so herself any number of times in interviews. I recall *our* saying so any number of times but can't find an interview where she admits it. I searched The Goat Pen using "maths," "math," and "numbers" with no relevant results--can you give a reference? > Sinistra is a woman in my translated edition, if that helps. Sorry, would that it did, but to the purist mind it resolves nothing. Translators have to make their best guess, same as we do, and AFAWK have no secret information from JKR. > Other people have suggested that the teachers we know of are only heads > of departments and that the classes are given out by lesser teachers so > they can find time. However, this clashes directly with the fact that > Harry has NEVER been teached by any other teacher than the ones > attending the parties and ceremonies. Well, the clash isn't as direct as all that. The only teachers *mentioned* in the descriptions of dinners, etc. are the ones who have taught Harry. This doesn't mean there are no other teachers, any more than Pansy's "gang of Slytherin girls" must consist of only Millicent Bulstrode just because she's the only Slytherin girl in that year we know by name (setting aside the androgynous Blaise Zabini). Also, we know for a fact that not all teachers get a mention. Professor Vector was never mentioned until PoA, when one of the Trio had her for a class; ditto Trelawney; Professor Kettleburn was probably at the head table for the first two years, without JKR seeing fit to tell us about him; the Muggle Studies and Ancient Runes professors have never been mentioned, though they presumably exist. Amy Z ------------------------------------------------------------------- "This is the weirdest thing we've ever done," Harry said fervently. --HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban ------------------------------------------------------------------- From pat_mahony at hotmail.com Tue Sep 3 10:33:15 2002 From: pat_mahony at hotmail.com (the_air_vents_of_abduction) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 10:33:15 -0000 Subject: Harry and the Phoenix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43534 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "doffy99" wrote: > My Theory: > > As everyone is guessing, Trelawney made the prediction. Possibly > while in school, at Hogwarts, with Tom Riddle. (She was the Lavender > Brown of her day. Worshipped her Divination teacher) The Divination > teacher was teaching them, Trewlawney, then a student along with > Riddle, makes this prediction IN CLASS! In front of Riddle. That one > day, the Hier of Gryffindor would kill the hier of Slytherin. > (This leads to MANY many philosophical questions such as "Did the > Prediction make itself come true?" By predicting it, Tom Riddle who > knew already he was the heir of Slytherin, realized he HAD to turn > evil, find the Hier's of Gryffindor and kill them, before they could > kill him. A Self fulfilling prophecy) > Tom Riddle turns evil so he can assure his own survival by killing > the heirs of Gryffindor. His entire "War" on the WW was to save his > own life. He purposely set out to kill the Gryffindor hiers. James > and Harry Potter were the last ones. That how James KNEW that > Voldemort would be coming after him and why he and Lily took Harry > and went into hiding. > > Sybil Trelawney caused it all. :)) > Well, I must begin by saying that there is no irony I love more than a self-fulfilling prophecy. However, I have problems with the way that doffy has theorised this prophecy was proclaimed. 1) Trelawney, according to Dumbledore, has only ever made two true predictions; one of which was the one in PoA. Not exactly a sparkling record. Plus there is just something about Voldemort that suggests his attitude towards Divination is similar to Minerva's; he likes to be in control, not Fate. 2) While Tom Riddle may have been paranoic enough as a teenager to take Trelawney seriously, surely,as he became more powerful, he would have discarded her prophecy as being nonsense, as there were no other true predictions to stablish credibility (although he did display some deep-seated urge to kill a baby) 3) If Trelawney's current personality is any indication of her personality as a child, I don't think anyone would take her too seriously. Ultimately, I see Trelawney's prediction as being something other than the" heir of Gryffindor will kill the heir of Slytherin". The thing is, Sybil would have only been taken seriously *after* the first prediction came true; up until then, she had no reputation or precedent for *true* predictions The only way I can see her being taken seriously would be if she was/ is a Death Eater held in high regard by Voldemort. . . But I won't even go into that here . . . Roo Avoid air vents at any cost- you never know who might pull you in. . . . . From lupinesque at yahoo.com Tue Sep 3 10:39:29 2002 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (lupinesque) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 10:39:29 -0000 Subject: Truth, light, knowledge, love In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43535 darkthirty wrote: > Erised and the dialogue around it made it > clear that the thesis being presented, in contradiction to > the actual treatment of truth in books, was that Erised > was a fraud. Erised becomes useful only when Potter > has, in the context of the books, dropped the fantasy. My > reading is that the real fantasy exists on a much deeper > level. My reading also doesn't find much joy in the Potter > books, or rather, it finds joy, so far, only in the pathos of > someone sustaining this fantasy, which makes life livable, > in the face of facts, of evidence, of truth. Harry's apparent > love for Sirius, for instance, is unconvincing. Hermione's > love for Harry is quite convincing, or Cho's for Cedric. The > books are more adult disguising themselves as children's > books than children's books appealing to the adult. Could you elucidate? I'm intrigued, but unsure what you mean by this. E.g. what does "unconvincing" mean?--you mean unconvincing to you as a reader? (I am fairly convinced of Harry's love for Sirius, though, the feeling and relationship being new, what is going on there has perhaps has not quite attained the status "love," unlike the [to me] undoubtable love amongst H, H and R). And where does it fit in with joy and reality/fantasy? Many thoughts on Erised, but I'll await your explanation. Amy Z ------------------------------------------------ The [Chudley Cannons'] motto was changed in 1972 from 'We shall conquer' to 'Let's all just keep our fingers crossed and hope for the best'. --Quidditch Through the Ages ------------------------------------------------ From doffy99 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 3 10:28:46 2002 From: doffy99 at yahoo.com (doffy99) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 10:28:46 -0000 Subject: Harry and the Phoenix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43536 I wrote: > > Why is this unlikely? Has there ever been mention, I don't remember > > it if there was, of how many wizards were killed during Voldemorts > > last reign of terror? Could he not been purposely going AFTER the > > Heir of Gryffindor? Maybe James and Harry Potter were the last ones? > > Maybe he had killed all the others. > > > > -Jeff Grey Wolf Wrote: > It's unlikely because "descendent" is a very generic term. To put it > mathematically: if Godric had two sons, and they had two sons each, > etc., there would be in our days 2^40 descendants of Godric Gryffindor > (that's 1 million million, a thousand billion (trillion?), for > Americans). It's not such a stretch of the mind that they had two sons > each; in fact, the average number of sons is probably bigger. > Obviously, there aren't that many people in the WW (or the world, for > that matter), but that is because some die childless, others leave the > country, and others simply don't make it. However, the fact is that > "descendency" is a very general concept, and after 40 generations, > almost everyone in the country could be a theorical descendant of > Gryffindor. > > If Voldemort was going for descendents, he would've had to eliminate > everyone. Besides, after 40 generations it's normally very difficult to > know exactly who is a dscendant and who isn't. > > Hope that helps, > > Grey Wolf There's a flaw in this theory somewhere. I'm not a good enough mathematician to see it, but there is. My quess is, that it's in the assumptions we have to make to get to this point: 1) That JKR will stand by her statement that there are only 1000 students at Hogwarts. It's never said in the books. 2) That this "1000" Statmement is enough information to base a guess on the population of the wizarding world in Great Britan. 3) That Hogwarts is the ONLY school, teaching magic of any kind, anywhere in England. We know it's the only "School of Witchcraft and Wizardry" in England, but is it the only school you can go to to learn magic? Are there Vocational Schools? Junior Colleges? Whatever. (Random thought: Is there a difference, in the WW of HP, between knowing magic and being a wizard or a witch? Where does a hag come in? Is it possible that there are different classifications depending on how gifted someone is in the magical arts?) 4) That Wizards reproduce at the same rate, or near the same rate, as muggles in the real world. We don't know for a fact any of these. Although we do have canon. With few exceptions, the Patil's, the Weasley's and the Creevy's, we know that very few Hogwart's students have brothers or sisters. We know bloodlines are important to some families. Perhaps, in order to keep the bloodlines as pure as possible, it has become a tradition of some sort to have only one child. This could go back generations. Also, the larger the population, the harder it is to hide! Another good reason to keep families small. A tradition that goes back 100's of years. It would limit the number of hiers to Slytherin and to Gryffindor. More support for this last idea: The only hier to Slytherin that we know of, the only one who has successfully opened the CoS, is Riddle. If there are so many, why isn't a student opening the chamber every school year? I'm new here and I'm not as eloquent as some here. I apologize for this. I do so love to debate though. :) -Jeff From vixinalizardqueen at hotmail.com Tue Sep 3 10:29:34 2002 From: vixinalizardqueen at hotmail.com (vixinalizardqueen) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 10:29:34 -0000 Subject: Heir of Griffindor Theory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43537 Personally, I don't support the "heir of Griffindor" theory, for a few reasons... I think that the secret to why Voldemort wanted to kill Harry has to be something darker, rather than something positive, such as Harry being the heir to Griffindor. When Dumbledore refuses to tell Harry why he was being targeted (sorry, don't have my books with me so I can't quote directly!) at the end of SS/PS, I thought his saying "I can tell you when you're older" sounded more as if there was some sort of dark secret.....I liken it to Harry discovering that Sirius Black had allegedly "betrayed" his parents. Nobody told him as they didn't want him to react in the wrong way. Okay, granted, they might not tell him that he is the "Heir of Griffindor" as they don't want him to have to deal with the responsibility, but there doesn't seem to be much responsibility (as far as we know!) attached to the role, does there? The only heir that we are aware of in the novels so far is, of course, Tom Riddle, Heir of Slytherin. And we have heard nothing of any responsibilties involved with the role (unless they were something Slytherin-ish like killing all Muggle-borns, but that isn't exactly upholding the good name of the school, is it?!! And I really don't believe that even Slytherin would go that far, and still be revered as one of the four founding memebers of Hogwarts.). Also, one would think that if Harry really was Heir of Griffindor, it would make more sense to tell him this during his time at Hogwarts, as opposed to later....Griffindor is really significant mainly to Hogwarts itself, rather than the outside Wizarding community. I just don't see why being the Heir of Griffindor would be such a big secret!!! Sorry, I can't offer any alternative to the theory myself though! Half of me doesn't even really want to guess at the true reason, as I'm so scared that on the off-chance I could be right! Imagine what an anti-climax it would be if it came true! (okay, at first you'd just be proud of yourself for guessing, but afterwards you'd feel a bit let down that it was "obvious" enough to guess- the beauty of the books is that the conclusions seem to come so far out of left field!! I mean, did ANYONE here predict the ending of PoA for example!!? I really didn't see that one coming!!) Anyway, just sick of lurking and thought I'd stir up some anti-Heir-raising conversation ;o) The Lizard Queen From drednort at alphalink.com.au Tue Sep 3 11:45:30 2002 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 21:45:30 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and the Phoenix In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3D752D7A.122.2B3484B@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 43538 On 3 Sep 2002 at 2:40, bboy_mn wrote: > Many people have said that after 1,000 years in the small wizard > world, there must be drops of Gryffindor blood all over the place. So, > let's look at the Royal Family of Britain as an example. There are > cousins and uncles and all kinds of people who can trace the heritage > back to the roots of the Windsor family, but they are neither the > descendants of the Royal Family nor the heir to the Royal Family. > Right now Prince William, the first born, is the crown prince and heir > to the throne, his younger brother, Prince Henry (Harry) is nothing > 'to the throne'. The next heir will be the son or daughter of William. > So even as close as Prince Henry/Harry is, he and his children will > never be the 'heirs' to the throne. Actually they are - the distinction is quite important. I'm aware of the legal issues involved because I actually have a claim to the British throne - there is no way short of major holocaust that somehow leaves the institution intact, that I would ever be King (there's an estimated 3000 people closer to the throne than I am), but in terms of family trees and genealogy it's interesting (-8 Prince Charles is Heir Apparent to the throne of the United Kingdom. While Prince William has a certain right to be King provided he doesn't predecease his father, he has no special status - he is neither Heir Apparent nor Heir Presumptive. He is an Heir to the throne - and the one with the best claim of any except his father - *but* there are a vast number of other heirs. Under British law (the Act of Settlement of 1701 to be precise) any descendent of Sophie, Electress of Hanover is an heir to the throne - unless disqualified by certain criteria. A rough estimate puts the number at over 10,000 - the order is typically never worked out to more than 100 places. Precisely who is an heir is largely a legal decision - and who knows the intricacies of wizard law? Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From lucy at luphen.co.uk Tue Sep 3 12:17:40 2002 From: lucy at luphen.co.uk (Lucy Dawson) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 13:17:40 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hogwarts: A tight schedule References: Message-ID: <00c601c25343$e63a7460$3feec150@stephen> No: HPFGUIDX 43539 > > The problem, however, goes further. Canon points out that clases don't > happen on Saturdays either (or at least, they get some of them free), > since Quidditch matches happen on Saturday mornings, and Harry visits > Hagrid on Saturday afternoons. It only stands to reason. AFAIK, the > only country that has class on Saturdays is France, and is only > half-day anyway, and yet they have the same number of hours the other > coutries have, because they get a half-day one of the week-days > (Wednesday, in my case). > I'll just have to nitpick a bit here - though I found it very weird, my husband's school did actually have classes on Saturdays, though I think it was only a half day. They also had a full 5 day week. And he went to school in Suffolk, not France! Lucy From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Tue Sep 3 12:51:00 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (grey_wolf_c) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 12:51:00 -0000 Subject: Harry and the Phoenix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43540 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "doffy99" wrote: > > I wrote: > > > Why is this unlikely? Has there ever been mention, I don't > remember > > > it if there was, of how many wizards were killed during > Voldemorts > > > last reign of terror? Could he not been purposely going AFTER the > > > Heir of Gryffindor? Maybe James and Harry Potter were the last > ones? > > > Maybe he had killed all the others. > > > > > > -Jeff > > > Grey Wolf Wrote: > > It's unlikely because "descendent" is a very generic term. To put > it > > mathematically: if Godric had two sons, and they had two sons each, > > etc., there would be in our days 2^40 descendants of Godric > Gryffindor > > (that's 1 million million, a thousand billion (trillion?), for > > Americans). It's not such a stretch of the mind that they had two > sons > > each; in fact, the average number of sons is probably bigger. > > Obviously, there aren't that many people in the WW (or the world, > for > > that matter), but that is because some die childless, others leave > the > > country, and others simply don't make it. However, the fact is that > > "descendency" is a very general concept, and after 40 generations, > > almost everyone in the country could be a theorical descendant of > > Gryffindor. > > > > If Voldemort was going for descendents, he would've had to > eliminate > > everyone. Besides, after 40 generations it's normally very > difficult to > > know exactly who is a dscendant and who isn't. > > > > Hope that helps, > > > > Grey Wolf > > There's a flaw in this theory somewhere. I'm not a good enough > mathematician to see it, but there is. My quess is, that it's in the > assumptions we have to make to get to this point: > > 1) That JKR will stand by her statement that there are only 1000 > students at Hogwarts. It's never said in the books. > 2) That this "1000" Statmement is enough information to base a guess > on the population of the wizarding world in Great Britan. > 3) That Hogwarts is the ONLY school, teaching magic of any kind, > anywhere in England. We know it's the only "School of Witchcraft and > Wizardry" in England, but is it the only school you can go to to > learn magic? Are there Vocational Schools? Junior Colleges? Whatever. > (Random thought: Is there a difference, in the WW of HP, between > knowing magic and being a wizard or a witch? Where does a hag come > in? Is it possible that there are different classifications depending > on how gifted someone is in the magical arts?) > 4) That Wizards reproduce at the same rate, or near the same rate, as > muggles in the real world. > > We don't know for a fact any of these. I'm not sure were you want to go with this. There is, of course, a flaw in the fact that there aren't 1 million million people in the whole England, much less in the WW, so that cannot be the number of descendents of Gryffindar anyway. That, however, is a simple number to show you just how many they can be. Reality is different. I am assuming, for example, that every son finds a person from a family NOT related to Gryffindor to marry. After ten generations at the (slow) rate I've suposed (2 offspring), this ceases to be probable (probability < 0.5), since we're talking at that point of 2^10 (1024) people of the same generation belonging to 512 different families, whaih are related by close blood to only 256 of the other heirs, which leaves 768 other descendants to choose from. By the time 30 generations have passed, the gryffindor descendants would number (aproximately) 1000 million, but this is again impossible, simply because there aren't enough people belonging to other families to make it possible. At some point, all the families would belong to Griffyndor descendants, and would stop growing in number. What DOES happen, then? It's easier to look at it from my perspective: In my country, a married woman has always kept her surnames, instead of taking the ones of her husband. Their children receive all the surnames of both parents, intercalating one from each (starting with the father's). Which means that, if HP was happening in my country, all the descendants would have the surname "Gryffindor" sooner or later, in the list of surnames. To put forward a case I know best: my own name has (aproximately) 2^34 surnames (16000 million surnames). Needless to say, there *aren't* 16000 million possible surnames in my country (or, in fact in the whole world, I'd say), so most of them are surely repeated. This is because, after a set number of generations, bloodlines are distant enough to interbreed without problems, which means that I am descendant of the same people through several different lines. I am not a sociologist, but I know that there is some point were the probability of being a descendent of any given person is very big, especially if there are many generations between them and you, regardless of the number of people in the country, and circunstances like social class, money, etc. (I don't, however, know where that point is. I'd say someplace between 20 and 30 generations, but it's a guess). > Although we do have canon. With few exceptions, the Patil's, the > Weasley's and the Creevy's, we know that very few Hogwart's students > have brothers or sisters. We know bloodlines are important to some > families. Perhaps, in order to keep the bloodlines as pure as > possible, it has become a tradition of some sort to have only one > child. This could go back generations. Also, the larger the > population, the harder it is to hide! Another good reason to keep > families small. A tradition that goes back 100's of years. It would > limit the number of hiers to Slytherin and to Gryffindor. Please notice that my rate was the smallest possible: 2 offsprings per family keeps the population at a steady size: neither grows nor reduces. While the society has enough people to keep offering mates to the gryffindor descendants that weren't gryffindors descenants themselves, the gryffindor blood would continue to spread. This, as I have mentioned, stops to happen after a while, and the gryffindor descendants start marrying other griffyndor descendants. However, a compound probability rate shows that, after a while, any families that had not joined the gryffindor bloodline will sooner or later do so, since the gyffindor descendents would be so common. The number of descendents is actually increased when you put forward offspring numbers that get closer to the truth. While it is true that families like the Malfoy have controled their numbers through the ages, other families have probably had considerably more sons and daughters in each generation. In the middle ages (1200's), a normal family could have between 5 and 15 sons (not all of them survived). In the 12 generations between Godric and the year 1300, the number of possible gryffindors descendents (averaging 10 offspring) would be 10^12 1 million million -again, too many, so by then the different branches had already interbred. Besides, after like 6 or seven generations, some of the branches of the family are so distant that they don't know they are members of the same family anyway (not that there is much way to tell, since 6 or 7 generations is a big jump). However, even if they can't tell, they are still theorically descendents of the same person (Godric, in this case). > More support for this last idea: The only hier to Slytherin that we > know of, the only one who has successfully opened the CoS, is Riddle. > If there are so many, why isn't a student opening the chamber every > school year? > > -Jeff You seem to be mistaking "heir" with "descendant". A heir is the descendent that is closest to the unbroken father-first born line (closest, because you have to allow for first-borns that don't have sons themselves). Anyway, Parselmouth is not necesarily a sign of the Slytherin line. Besides, even if it is, we are told that very few people have it, although most of them were dark wizards. But we're told that Salazar looked for other potential wizards and witches with parselmouth for his slytherins so it's not just his descendants. And of course, to open the chamber you just need parseltongue. There is no need to be a descendent of Slytherin (heir or not) to open the chamber; you just need to speak the language of serpents. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf, who doesn't know all his surnames, nor is particularly interested in knowing them. From bbennett at joymail.com Tue Sep 3 13:03:45 2002 From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett320178) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 13:03:45 -0000 Subject: FYI: The Sugar Quill website Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43541 Just to let everyone know: The Sugar Quill is experiencing technical difficulties. We were not hacked - the owner of the server cancelled without giving the administrator any advance notice. At the moment, the Sugar Quill is trying to decide the next course of action. Headmistress Zsenya has everything backed up, and as soon as we can regroup, hopefully the archive at the very least will be back within a few weeks. We're very sorry for any inconvenience. Thank you, B Bennett :( From anne_conda at hotmail.com Tue Sep 3 12:13:01 2002 From: anne_conda at hotmail.com (anne mattigk) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 12:13:01 +0000 Subject: Hermiones placement Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43542 About the theories why the Sorting Hat put Hermione into Gryffindor House: well, thanks, all your thoughts were just great! I just want to add one single thought: the Hat preferred Hermione rather in Gryffindor than in Ravenclaw or Slytherin, because her intelligence is much more usefull to others,if it is coupled with bravery (that would make Gryffindor, then). Only if you are brave, you go out, try to achieve things and use your wisdom at that. Why not Slytherin, then? Well, obviously Hermione wants her knowledge to help the good side, doens't she? Though, really, really right you were- she would be a win for all 4 houses!...and right, still it seems like destiny that she helps famous Harry Potter- think, how often she saved his LIFE! She is MEANT to be in Gryffindor to support (or even SAVE) the good side with her loyalty, bravery and cleverness...the Hat did I good job, I suppose. Ah...I read some interesting posts about MCGonagalls past (what a very interesting theory about her being the evil, just think about that- it would be the classic British thriller solution- the one you expect it being the least or the one you never even recognized, is the murder- gee, very excellent point, really): I think she was a lot like Hermione, though. Hermione is her favorite, she cares for her (obviously and that means something) and the other side around Hermione is often compared with the Gryffindor House Head. McGonagall also seems to be pleased to see Hermione has Ron and Harry caring for her- I imagine her own childhood not that lucky, maybe she was no fun hanging around with, was bossy...and well, hermiony. My, my good ol' McGonagall... ...if only book 5 would come out...*taptaptap* Love, .anne in fluffy hair mode. ...PS: Maybe this one is a really, really silly question...maybe it's even going to offend all Harry- fans out there, but I ever wondered, whether Harry is able to love someone. I never had the feeling, reading those books, HE loves someone. He MISSES his parents, right,... but... how he could know about love at all? I hope I made my doubts clear.(you know, I'm out of praxis writing in English and all) Any points? .anne curling strands of hair around her fingers. HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com _________________________________________________________________ Testen Sie MSN Messenger fr Ihren Online-Chat mit Freunden: http://messenger.msn.de From anne_conda at hotmail.com Tue Sep 3 12:40:59 2002 From: anne_conda at hotmail.com (anne mattigk) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 12:40:59 +0000 Subject: Wizard Elementary Schools Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43543 Are there wizard elemantary schools for wizard families (before they go to Hogwarts...and what to do besides, if you arn`t accepted at Hogwarts?)?What do you think? .annie scratching her chin. _________________________________________________________________ Werden Sie Mitglied bei MSN Hotmail, dem grten E-Mail-Service der Welt: http://www.hotmail.com/de From eloiseherisson at aol.com Tue Sep 3 14:39:32 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 10:39:32 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's office sealed? Message-ID: <8c.1d923859.2aa623a4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43545 In a message dated 03/09/2002 02:14:55 GMT Standard Time, bboy_mn at yahoo.com writes: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "fruhu" wrote: > > In GoF page 408 (UK hardb.) Snape says he seals his office with a > > spell none but a wizard could break. But in her second year Hermione > > steals Boomslang skin from his private stores, and I don't remember > > there being a problem with breaking a seal. She just sneaks in there > > quickly when the others are at potions class. > > > > "fruhu" > > bboy_mn comments: > > When Hermione stole supplies, they were from the supply stores in the > classroom. Other references to Snapes office haven't given me the > impression that it is in or near the potions classroom. Well, it's > certainly in the dungeon, but I get no indication that it is attached > to the potions classroom. > > So I don't think Hermione stole supplies from Snape's private office, > but from his private supplies cuboard/room in the classroom. > > I don't have it here in front of me, but I think we might have two > separate events. One is Moody/Couch in Snape's Office as seen on the > Map, and Snape's later statement that ingredients were missing from > his private stock. Those two are not necessarily the same event. My thoughts: 1) Snape says 'none but a wizard', not 'none but a qualified wizard' and doesn't seem surprised at the idea that a student should break in. In fact, he's the one who suggests it. Hermione is a witch and a very good one who is capable of using spells beyond her training level. I seem to remember someone once pointing out that this remark was in response to Filch's assumption that it was Peeves who had broken in and that he was explaining that this was impossible. (My question has always been what on earth the use is in sealing your office with a spell that a wizard *can* break, when the place is crawling with them, but no matter. Additionally, Dobby seems to have got in.) 2) We know that Crouch/Moody was stealing the ingredients for Polyjuice potion from Snape's supplies. Referring back to our friend Occam, the most likely explanation is that he and Hermione were stealing the ingredients from the same place. 3) We cannot be certain if the Polyjuice ingredients might be needed for more innocuous potions or not, but Polyjuice potion seems to be something that only the most advanced (if any) students might make. It is not clear that if Snape *did* have two offices and store rooms that he would keep such ingredients in the one near his classroom. Plus, Hermione stole from Snape's *personal* stock, not a stock of restricted ingredients kept handy for students. bboy_mn: >If Rowling is trying to give us a clear visual image of Snape's office >then I think it proximity to the potions classroom or attachment to >the potions classroom would have been significant enough to mention. I >can't believe that THIS office is In, Near, or Attached to the potions >classroom. If it is, I don't see how Rowling could not mention that >fact in her narrative. It's just too important a detail to be left out. Eloise: I think that a corridor in the dungeons is pretty precise for JKR (I don't find her description of the geography of Hogwarts at all easy to visualise). After all, what do we know before then? Just that Snape's classroom is in the dungeons. The Egg and the Eye supplies us with the information that he sleeps somewhere in the vicinity too. I have always assumed that his office, classroom and living quarters are all either adjacent or close to each other. Why is it important to *say* that it's close to the classroom? I don't think it is, particularly as it is at the beginning of the book: JKR, especially in the earlier books tends to treat us as if we know nothing that has happened in previous books and we have not yet visited the Potions classroom in this one. I fact, I think we have much more indication of place here, than regarding any of the other teacher's territories. bboy_mn: >While I'm sure that Snape has an office area in the potions classroom >in which he keeps his student restricted supplies, I still think his >main private office is in another area of the dungeons, and in this >office, he keep his private personal stock of ingredients. I think >this other private office is the office that Moody/Couch was searching. Eloise: But if he has two, why doesn't he refer to Moody's having searched his offices, rather than his office? Eloise > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From olivia at rocketbandit.com Tue Sep 3 14:49:59 2002 From: olivia at rocketbandit.com (Olivia) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 10:49:59 -0400 Subject: Hogwarts: A tight schedule In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201c25359$2cf5dba0$9ca2e3d8@agstme.adelphia.net> No: HPFGUIDX 43546 Amy Z said: "Good thought. We have to work out the timetable based on scattered clues, and though there is no statement anywhere that there are no classes on weekends, there are various canon indications that lead to that conclusion. Grey Wolf has pointed out the Saturday Quidditch matches and visits to Hagrid; Saturday is also the day of Hogsmeade visits (the first one in PoA seems to be on a Sunday: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/calendar_pa.html); Sundays we see in detail seem to be lesson-free (cf GF 28)." Actually I didn't say what you're responding to, Amy. (A paragraph starting with "My question is... and ending with ...teaching even more classes.") But it is still possible that they have some Saturday classes. True, Quidditch is on Saturday, but I get the impression from canon that they aren't every Saturday. Although if it says somewhere that it is every Saturday morning, by all means, correct me. I find it unlikely that they have classes on a Sunday, but it's possible that they go to class every other Saturday or there's some sort of rotating schedule of the like. I, personally, tend to think that they only have five days of classes. Evidence from canon seems to say that they have long days. From 9 o'clock in the morning right up until dinner time. Grey Wolf said: "Sinistra is a woman in my translated edition, if that helps." And Amy Z responded: "Sorry, would that it did, but to the purist mind it resolves nothing. Translators have to make their best guess, same as we do, and AFAWK have no secret information from JKR." I'd have to agree with Amy. Other discrepancies have been found between translations. And if we're all going to be as vehement about canon as you are, GW, I'd say, rule out anything that isn't in the English version as it's unknown whether it's JK's doing, or a translator's guess. The English language obviously doesn't require a feminine or masculine version of a word, while most other languages do. I'm not sure what language your edition is, but that kind of thing could definitely be the work of a translator, unless -- going out on a limb here -- the translators consulted JK for discrepancies like that. Grey Wolf said: "Other people have suggested that the teachers we know of are only heads of departments and that the classes are given out by lesser teachers so they can find time. However, this clashes directly with the fact that Harry has NEVER been teached by any other teacher than the ones attending the parties and ceremonies." Like I mentioned before, we have a very, very limited view of Hogwarts. Harry is just one point of view of many. We know for a fact that he doesn't take every class available to him. And it's very possible that just because he goes to a particular class, doesn't mean he describes it to us. He took at least one year of Astronomy, but we have only very brief mentions of it and it's never been described to us in as much detail as, say, Potions. Maybe there's more classes he goes to that don't interest him enough to give us a description. I'm just saying that just because something isn't directly referenced, doesn't mean it isn't there. I do agree that my (and others, apparently) theory on the teachers who are at meals are the heads of departments is a little weak, it may not be entirely untrue. Or maybe there are teachers who simply choose not to eat at the staff table. We know that Professor Trelawney chooses not to, for one. Maybe there are others who don't. Or maybe there are teachers there who Harry doesn't know because he doesn't have them in class, therefore doesn't mention them in his descriptions. Question: Do Professor Sprout and Madam Hooch eat at the staff table? I have neither my books nor my notes in front of me and can't remember if they've been mentioned at meals before or not. Amy Z also said: "Well, the clash isn't as direct as all that. The only teachers *mentioned* in the descriptions of dinners, etc. are the ones who have taught Harry. This doesn't mean there are no other teachers, any more than Pansy's "gang of Slytherin girls" must consist of only Millicent Bulstrode just because she's the only Slytherin girl in that year we know by name (setting aside the androgynous Blaise Zabini). Also, we know for a fact that not all teachers get a mention. Professor Vector was never mentioned until PoA, when one of the Trio had her for a class; ditto Trelawney; Professor Kettleburn was probably at the head table for the first two years, without JKR seeing fit to tell us about him; the Muggle Studies and Ancient Runes professors have never been mentioned, though they presumably exist." I think I should have just used Amy's argument. She's far more succinct than I was, and expresses her self much better. :) All this talk has definitely inspired me into trying to come up with some more definitive notes on the subject. It's a very interesting and thought-provoking topic you brought up, Grey Wolf. (I think you're the one who started it. So many messages coming and going, it's hard to remember.) Olivia From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Tue Sep 3 15:14:05 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 15:14:05 -0000 Subject: LOON - Professor Sinistra In-Reply-To: <000201c25359$2cf5dba0$9ca2e3d8@agstme.adelphia.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43547 > Grey Wolf said: > > "Sinistra is a woman in my translated edition, if that helps." > > And Amy Z responded: > > "Sorry, would that it did, but to the purist mind it resolves nothing. > Translators have to make their best guess, same as we do, and AFAWK have no > secret information from JKR." "Mad-Eye Moody was doing an extremely ungainly two-step with Professor Sinistra, who was nervously avoiding his wooden leg." 365, GoF Which suggests, if it does not absolutely confirm :-), that Sinistra is a woman. Eileen From eloiseherisson at aol.com Tue Sep 3 15:17:32 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 11:17:32 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and the Phoenix Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43548 In a message dated 03/09/2002 10:30:27 GMT Standard Time, heidit at netbox.com writes: > > In a message dated 9/3/2002 5:20:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, > pen at pensnest.co.uk writes: > > In this > > tradition, it would be reasonable for those descended from Godric > > Gryffindor's daughters not to be in the running for the 'Heir of > > Gryffindor' tag. > > > Would that be feasible even if we've seen that on the Slytherin line, the > descent goes through Tom Riddle's mother? It's something not unheard of in > British history - didn't Henry Tudor claim the throne by dint of lineage > on > both parents' sides? - > It's certainly not unheard of. Prince Charles' claim to the throne is through his,er, *mother*. Henry Tudor (VII)'s claim to the throne was through the Lancastrian line, via his mother. He then united the houses of Lancaster and York (who, like the lion and the unicorn, had been vying for the crown through the 15th century) by marrying the daughter of Edward IV. Thus Henry VIII could claim lineage from both houses. or are you just saying that a woman can't be the > > "heir" but her son can be? Or are you saying that having a daughter ends > the > line in that particular branch of the family tree? > > Even if Princess Anne were the Queen's eldest child, she would still not be the Heir Apparent to the throne and as Pen pointed out, she is below her younger brothers and their offspring in line to the throne. Until the present day (generally speaking), the throne has always been inherited through the *male* line, unless the monarch had no male offspring but did have a daughter. So if Godric Gryffindor had a son and a daughter, under the usual rules of primogeniture which favour males, then one might expect the 'heir' to be descended originally from his son. (I should point out that in these enlightened days, things have been changed, so that if William becomes King and his first child is a daughter, she will become next in line to the throne, male siblings or not.) Make sense? The line in the sense of the *name* might die out, but the line of succession wouldn't. That's sort of why we have different Houses of monarchs, although it gets very complicated. Only as I have pointed out, at the time Gryffindor is supposed to have lived, it is more likely that the system wasn't in use and the heir would be chosen from among the available descendents. If it's relevant, which it probably isn't. Eloise P.S. Did you know that the Queen could trace her ancestry all the way back to Woden, should she wish (and should she believe in Germanic mythology)? Therefore so also, presumably, can Dreadnought. There's a thought! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Tue Sep 3 15:24:14 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb P) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 08:24:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hogwarts: A tight schedule In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020903152415.35561.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43549 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "lupinesque" wrote: > Olivia wrote: > > > > My question is, who's to say that the students only go to > > > school five days a week? I can't remember offhand, so I'll > > > read into it and maybe some people can inform me on the thread > > > that I'm wrong. But I can't seem to recall any evidence that > > > there were only five school days. That would certainly give > > > the teachers more time to spend teaching even more classes. > > Good thought. We have to work out the timetable based on > scattered clues, and though there is no statement anywhere that > there are no classes on weekends, there are various canon > indications that lead to that conclusion. Grey Wolf has pointed > out the Saturday Quidditch matches and visits to Hagrid; Saturday > is also the day of Hogsmeade visits Right. Canon actually seems to be full of evidence that a number of things--but never classes--take place on the weekend. Now, again, since we're seeing things from Harry's point of view, it could be that we only know the rule for students in first through fourth years. After all, we didn't know until near the end of CoS that Harry and company would be taking additional classes starting in third year, which means they must have had a freer schedule than one might suppose in first and second year. Since we don't have book five yet, it is entirely possible that we will learn, once we get Harry's POV on being a fifth-year student, that fifth-, sixth- and seventh-year students are not segregated in their classes by house, but take their classes all together, except in cases where the physical facilities make this prohibitive (in the Potions dungeon, for instance, there are only work stations for twenty students, I believe, and a similar situation would be the case in Herbology). Such a system would make weekend classes and loads of extra teachers unnecessary for the numbers to add up. > Grey Wolf wrote: > > > Olivia, we KNOW for sure that he didn't go over the maths: she > > has said so herself any number of times in interviews. > > I recall *our* saying so any number of times but can't find an > interview where she admits it. I searched The Goat Pen > using "maths," "math," and "numbers" with no relevant results--can > you give a reference? I'd like this too! Frankly, I've been afraid that folks might think I'm attacking JKR when I call her "innumerate." I'm merely saying what I'd heard that she'd said, albeit second-hand. I'd be very interested to know the first-hand source. > > Sinistra is a woman in my translated edition, if that helps. > > Sorry, would that it did, but to the purist mind it resolves > nothing. Translators have to make their best guess, same as we do, > and AFAWK have no secret information from JKR. I looked upon Professor Moody dancing with Professor Sinistra at the Yule Ball as evidence of her gender, since it seemed unlikely that JKR would suddenly do something so daring as depict two men dancing together at the Ball (::waves to slash fanfic writers::). > > Other people have suggested that the teachers we know of are > > only heads of departments and that the classes are given out by > > lesser teachers so they can find time. However, this clashes > > directly with the fact that Harry has NEVER been teached by any > > other teacher than the ones attending the parties and > > ceremonies. > > Well, the clash isn't as direct as all that. The only teachers > *mentioned* in the descriptions of dinners, etc. are the ones who > have taught Harry. This doesn't mean there are no other teachers, > any more than Pansy's "gang of Slytherin girls" must consist of > only Millicent Bulstrode just because she's the only Slytherin > girl in that year we know by name (setting aside the androgynous > Blaise Zabini). > > Also, we know for a fact that not all teachers get a mention. > Professor Vector was never mentioned until PoA, when one of the > Trio had her for a class; ditto Trelawney; Professor Kettleburn > was probably at the head table for the first two years, without > JKR seeing fit to tell us about him; the Muggle Studies and > Ancient Runes professors have never been mentioned, though they > presumably exist. Right. We never even hear of those teachers despite the fact that Hermione takes those courses in third year. As for heads of departments and unseen teachers, it very well might be significant that Sinistra is described as the "head" of the Astronomy department. When one thinks about it, this class is the only one which does not take place during the normal school day, but late at night. This limits the time when this one teacher can teach all 280 students (IMO) even more than the other students. If there are multiple astronomy teachers in multiple rooms up in the Astronomy Tower each night, this would make much more sense. It's even entirely possible that Harry has been taught by one of these unseen Astronomy teachers, as we very seldom get ANY information on what goes on in this class. This would probably be another class limited by equipment (telescopes) so it's possible that only two houses at a time in each year can be taught. This would bring us to a total of fourteen classes, if they take Astronomy once a week. With three instructors teaching simultaneously each of five evenings a week, it would be possible to do this, unless Sinistra is teaching three classes a night, at something like ten-thirty, midnight and one-thirty. Somehow, though, making students take classes at one-thirty in the morning (until three o'clock) seems very cruel (midnight was bad enough). --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From crussell at arkansas.net Tue Sep 3 15:41:59 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 15:41:59 -0000 Subject: Digest Number 2099 In-Reply-To: <20020903143413.56742.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43550 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Nicole L." wrote: > .. To > some extent or another, we are all free to choose to > do whatever we want. Harry's being Gryffindor's heir > would not make him an exception to this rule. If he > is Gryffindor's heir, this may make Voldemort see him > as a threat but I don't believe that it predestines > Harry to do this or that. I think that what he ends > up doing will be up to him to decide. > As has been discussed previously, according to JKR, there is a strong Christianity element involved in the HP series. In the Bible, we are told that before the foundations of the earth were laid that the plan of man's salvation was in place. Even though Christ was predestined to be the Savior of mankind-it did not remove his ability to choose. The beauty of this choice is not diminished because of its being a part of a predetermined plan. The choice was still Christ's to make. In fact it can be argued that without the element of choice- the beauty of his choice would be muted. To return to the HP/Christian connection, IMO, Harry is definitely a part of a masterplan to destroy Voldemort. Dumbledore knows this - and so does Voldemort. But let me reiterate once again- this does not mean that Harry has no choice on which route to choose. Its his own free-will led by the goodness of his heart which will lead him to make the right decisions-but they will definitely be his decisions to make. > > I am in support of Harry as the "Chosen One". I truly > think all canon points to it. As has been discussed > endlessly, just why did Voldemort want to kill James > and Harry but not necessarily Lily? Why is Voldemort > so intent on obtaining Harry's blood for his > rebirthing ritual? Why is Voldemort so intent on > getting rid of Harry? Personally, I think it's > because Harry is standing in his way. Voldemort knows > there is something very special and very dangerous > about Harry and he is very eager to see Harry > eradicated from the face of the Earth. In fact, I see > this need to rid himself of Harry as consuming > Voldemort. > ~Nicole, who is sorry that she fell behind with her > digests but is glad she finally caught up! This statement ties in with what I was saying previously. I am not trying to encroach on anyone's religious beliefs by the way. I am merely at this point trying to make the connection between HP/Christianity from a literary standpoint. When Nicole states that Voldemort is consumed with his desire to destroy Harry-the obvious parallel to this of course is Satan's desire to destroy Christ-to thwart him in every way possible. As has been previously discussed, JKR has stated that she was afraid that readers being aware of her religious beliefs would clue them into the future of the HP series. I guess what I am saying here is- that making a connection between HP and Christianity is not farfetched. bugaloo37-who apologizes if she has offended in any way > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes > http://finance.yahoo.com From lupinesque at yahoo.com Tue Sep 3 15:58:50 2002 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (lupinesque) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 15:58:50 -0000 Subject: LOON - Professor Sinistra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43551 Eileen wrote: > "Mad-Eye Moody was doing an extremely ungainly two-step with Professor > Sinistra, who was nervously avoiding his wooden leg." 365, GoF > > Which suggests, if it does not absolutely confirm :-), that Sinistra > is a woman. and Barbara wrote: >I looked upon Professor Moody dancing with Professor Sinistra at the >Yule Ball as evidence of her gender, since it seemed unlikely that >JKR would suddenly do something so daring as depict two men dancing >together at the Ball (::waves to slash fanfic writers::). Probably, yes, but it doesn't meet the exacting LOON standard of proof. It is conceivable that Moody would dance with a man; there is no pronoun indicating Professor Sinistra's gender; therefore the question remains open. Amy Z Sgt., LOON Enforcement Squad From gandharvika at hotmail.com Tue Sep 3 15:00:48 2002 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 15:00:48 +0000 Subject: Come Together (FILK) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43552 Come Together (a Filk by Gail Bohacek to the tune _Come Together_ by John Lennon) Here come You-Know-Who, he got brand new body He got reddish eye-ball, he one evil wizard He got name no one want to speak Got to be a madman he have ego so big He got parseltounge, he want world dominion He got dark art magic, he hate Harry Potter He say, "Death Eaters, come to me." Activate the Deathmark, and you know what it mean Come together, Deatheaters, to Voldy He avada kadavra, he do mean crucio He one wicked curser, he be Thomas Riddle He rule through tyranny Hold you in imperio you will never be free Come together, Deatheaters, to Voldy He got no mercy, he like Muggle torture He be heir of Slytherin, he want life immortal He got robes, black and billowy Got to be powerful 'coz he's so hard to defeat Come together, Deatheaters, to Voldy -Gail B. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From kaityf at jorsm.com Tue Sep 3 15:10:06 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 10:10:06 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Truth, light, knowledge, the WWF, Dickens and Trelawney In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020903080936.03b9a580@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> No: HPFGUIDX 43553 >darkthirty >There is no abstemiousness from truth in >Tolkien. There is, rather, an over-abundance of it, >volumes worth. Not so Potter. >Knowledge comes "after the fact." Wait a minute. I'm getting confused here. Are you talking about how the characters themselves deal with truth? I understood you to mean how the authors dealt with truth, that is, how true to life the stories were. >darkthirty >Well, this seems a bit dangerous to me, in the >context of this thread. I wouldn't necessarily put it that >way, but now you mention it, perhaps I do perceive >something in the "spiritual exercise" that doesn't fully >appreciate exactly how much, or exactly what, belief is >being "suspended." What exactly is dangerous? Can you elaborate (simply and concisely please) on what you are perceiving as a spiritual exercise? And when you ask what belief is being "suspended," do you mean instead what DISbelief is being suspended? As in a necessary quality for reading fiction is the willing suspension of disbelief? In this case the disbelief would be in magic. Most of us really don't belief witches and wizards and their magic exist, but we willingly suspend that disbelief in order to enjoy the stories. >darkthirty >A realistic reading of the books seems >to require the knowledge of what beliefs one is >suspending. How would you define a "realistic" reading of the books? (And again, I think you mean suspension of disbelief.) I have read innumerable interpretations of various texts, all claiming to be the most "realistic," but it all comes down to the framework, the criteria, the perspective, one uses to interpret those texts. One could interpret the HP books using a feminist framework, a Marxist framework, and a number of other perspectives. The interpretation would be considerably different for each reading, and each one would be considered the most "realistic" reading of the books. I'm guessing that you are doing a rather Calvinistic reading of the books. That's fine, but it's only one reading, and it's one which will raise a number of important issues for you, such as an apparent pre-destination. >Rowling tosses asides about "our" world, >posits a universe where "our" world and a parallel magical >world exist side-by-side, and in this context, places a boy >who seems "destined." That to me seems a context that >could be perceived as compromising and compromised, >not only within the story, but in the larger context of the >books' popularity. I don't quite see how the context of parallel worlds is compromised and compromising. How is it compromised and what is it compromising? >They are popular, I hazard, because >they compromise. We desire a world where our "deepest >desires" hold sway, a world where we just *are* whatever. >"Just Harry." I dunno. That's not what appeals to me at all. Quite the opposite, in fact. Part of the fun of the HP books for me is imagining that I could be something *other* than "just" me. I think that's one reason I love the Moody/Malfoy/ferret scene so much. What fun to imagine seeing your nemesis get turned into a ferret and bounced around. If I were "just me," I couldn't participate in such a world. >darkthirty >But Erised and the dialogue around it made it >clear that the thesis being presented, in contradiction to >the actual treatment of truth in books, was that Erised >was a fraud. Erised becomes useful only when Potter >has, in the context of the books, dropped the fantasy. How Erised is a fraud? It reflects desire. Is the desire a fraud? Is the reflection of it a fraud? When does Harry drop the fantasy of Erised, thereby making Erised useful? darkthirty >My reading also doesn't find much joy in the Potter >books, or rather, it finds joy, so far, only in the pathos of >someone sustaining this fantasy, which makes life livable, >in the face of facts, of evidence, of truth. Facts, evidence, truth of what? In any case, I'm not sure I would call the dominating emotion in HP joy. I'd be more likely to call it hope. Even so, I do see joy in the HP books, the most obvious examples of which would be Harry's winning the quidditch matches for Gryffindor. darkthirty >The >books are more adult disguising themselves as children's >books than children's books appealing to the adult. JKR has said that she did not write these books for children. She wrote them for herself, so I don't see how "disguise" can be an issue. darkthirty >The >very age of the characters is the key here. "Wish I'd gone >to school at a place like that, where merely saying >something would make it so." Etc. Why are we grown-ups >so interested in this school? Why is all the fan fiction >about ships? There seems to be an advanced strain of >"unconditional love wish fulfilment" going around. I don't think the assessment of Hogwarts is accurate and I don't see how these ideas are related. Merely saying something at Hogwarts does not make it so. And even if that were true, what does that have to do with "unconditional love wish fulfillment"? Maybe much of the fanfic centers around that idea, but an awful lot of literature does. I see it as a rather human condition to wish for unconditional love. In addition to that, I certainly wish I had gone to a school like Hogwarts, but it has much more to do with the fact that I hated my school and found it dreadfully dull and boring. How exciting to think that I might have been going to arithmancy rather than geometry. Even being bored in Professor Binn's history class sounds like more fun than being bored in my old history classes! Now that I'm older and a teacher myself, I fantasize about teaching at Hogwarts! It sounds like much more fun than I have now (and I like my job!) darkthirty >In my reading, Harry is, in >fact, a greater hero than he could ever possibly be in the >magical world of the books. Interesting. I think Harry is quite a little hero. How is he a greater hero in your reading? >Carol >She writes in such a simple style, with lots of >humor, but underneath it all lie plenty of serious questions >about life. > >darkthirty >Exactly. I am trying to point to the very serious >question of the relationship between what we are, for >instance, and what we know. We know the world is >horrifying and terrible. Are we? Are we what? Horrifying and terrible? Is this getting at the question of whether mankind is basically good or evil? That if evil exists in the world, humans must be evil since we know it exists? And you're looking at what Harry is and what Harry knows? And be extension the question of who we are as it relates to what we know? Not being a Calvinist myself, but closer to a Sufist, I don't see the world this way at all, nor does this kind of question come up for me, although I do like to think about such things at times. darkthirty >As support for this, I refer >to the houses. They are all *in* Hogwarts'. And just how is >my reading denying there are serious questions? A >fantasy world, even in the pathological sense, or >especially in the pathological sense, is full of serious >questions. I don't think I said your reading was denying that there were serious questions. I believe I was stating a reason I like the HP books so much. I'd say there are more questions in a pathological fantasy world than in a non-pathological fantasy world, but ultimately, I'd say we agree. darkthirty >On the one hand, I get the impression that my >reading makes some think I expect something of >Rowling's "world" that I don't find there. This is just not >true. I am stating what I do find there. Ah, but what you find there is based on your interpretation. The fun of much literary discussion is in seeing just how everyone can look at the same material and come up with different interpretations of it. darkthirty >A sense that, in >spite of everything, Harry is "destined" to succeed, so far. >Of course it matters. What I meant when I asked if it matters was that it is a fictional creation. It is not life. It seems rather odd to question whether Harry was "destined" to succeed, when if the author didn't have that destiny in mind, at least as far as it's gotten so far, we wouldn't have much of a story. In this sense, JKR is God and she has plans for her creations. She claims that she has the last chapter of the last book already written. That tells me that Harry's future is pretty much predestined. Now if we want to look at that same issue within the context of the story itself, we certainly can. Does Harry have free will or is his future predestined? That might be fun to discuss, but I, for one, would not be able to say much about it since Harry has not yet gone beyond age 14 in the books and I don't know the outcome of the book or the events, including the decisions Harry might have to make, that lead up to it. All I could do right now is talk about predestination in general (which I personally do not believe in) and that would be a general philosophical discussion, not related then to HP. darkthiry >This group spends a lot of time >debating the possible reasons Voldemort wanted Harry >dead, for example. They debate what, about Harry's >destiny, is the issue. Yes, but until we know Harry's ultimate destiny, how can we know it was "fate"? As I said, I'm not a Calvinist and don't see the world the way the Calvinists do. However, once we all get through reading Book 7, I'll be open to discussions on Calvinist ideas as they may or may not exist in the finished story. >Carol >I don't think Dumbledore knew just how bad the >Dursleys would be to Harry. > >darkthirty >But Dumbledore had "learned" of how bad they >were. And still sent him back. Yes, but we learn in Book 4 that Harry is well-protected at the Dursleys. My guess is that Dumbledore arranged some sort of charm or protection for Harry when Harry first went to the Dursleys, before he learned just how bad the Dursleys were. At the end of Book 4, Ron tells Harry that Dumbledore wants him to go first to the Dursley's house before going to the Weasley's. It seems like that is more for Harry's protection than some insensitivity on Dumbledore's part. Again, it's really hard to know what's going on because we don't have all the details that may come out in the last 3 books. darkthirty >But Carol, what is an understanding of the text? >Are you suggesting that *only* debates about Crouch's >mark (?), Moody's (?) foe glass, Voldemort's reason for >wanting Harry dead, the houses to which the Marauders >belonged etc. etc. add "understanding" to the text? No, I'm not suggesting that at all. I believe I was referring quite specifically to the specific method of literary criticism that sees a text as a reflection of an author's subconscious. It presumes to know what is in an author's mind based on what is in the books and therefore presumes to understand what the author intended. I find that mode of criticism to be quite presumptuous since none us can *know* what is in anyone else's mind or what they really intended. As I said, it's fun to discuss, but doesn't tell us about the *text*. darkthirty >My reading, indeed, is exactly the >opposite of this. 1500 pages. That's all we have. >We should have cleared up all the bits long ago. I disagree. The series isn't completed and we don't have all the details. Some of what has been discussed will, I'm betting, be cleared up. Some of it won't be. Good fiction allows for a great deal of ambiguity; that's part of what makes it so good. People are still debating issues in Shakespeare's works and one would certainly say that THOSE bits should have been cleared up by now. After all, it's been over 500 years! darkthirty >Instead of looking at the world of the books as self- >contained, which, as I have pointed out a few times now, >Rowling herself plots against, I can only look at them as >they really are - But isn't the issue in part exactly *what* they really are? I don't think anyone here has a corner on that reality. And the worlds of all works of fiction are self-contained. It doesn't matter how closely they resemble the real world or not. They are a world in which the events in them take place. Neither the events nor the characters exist outside the books. Or are you referring to the Hogwarts world within the world in the books? Two separate things. darkthirty > If I am talking >about anyone's "subconscious," I am talking about the >adult readers'. This is completely tied to the canon, it is >not some comment about fantasy books in general. My comments about the subconscious was in response to your following statement: >I'm not sure how much of this line Rowling is conscious of when she >writes. I have no intention in this post of addressing that >particular moot area. I wasn't criticizing you or questioning your ideas; I was simply adding some information about a method of literary criticism that does consider what authors bring to their writing subconsciously. Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From nplyon at yahoo.com Tue Sep 3 16:24:50 2002 From: nplyon at yahoo.com (Nicole L.) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 09:24:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Choices Versus Heredity--Harry as Gryffindor's Heir (was Re: Harry and the Phoenix) Message-ID: <20020903162450.74949.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43554 > bboy_mn said: > > Blood vs Choices- > > There seems to be a belief that if Harry is the > Gryffindor heir that this cancels out Dumbledore's > statement that choices are more important than > blood. But I don't see it that way. Let's face it, > there are people born to the roll of king or queen > who are scum, in many cases possessing only marginal > sanity. I am in total agreement with this. Just because you are the heir to something does not mean that you do not have free will to make your own choices. We are all heir to something or other, whether it be a bad temper that we've inherited from a parent, or curly hair, or whatever. However, it is our choices that set us apart. As bboy_mn said, someone who is born king or queen can choose to be a fair ruler, a despotic ruler, etc., etc., etc. IMHO, the argument that Harry can't be Gryffindor's heir because it would eliminate the theme of choices just doesn't apply. To some extent or another, we are all free to choose to do whatever we want. Harry's being Gryffindor's heir would not make him an exception to this rule. If he is Gryffindor's heir, this may make Voldemort see him as a threat but I don't believe that it predestines Harry to do this or that. I think that what he ends up doing will be up to him to decide. > I think Harry is being contrasted to Draco who > believes he is born to privilege. He believes things > are automatically and unquestionable due him, > because of his blood. Dumbledore's message to Harry > is that you have to earn your 'privilege' in life no > matter what you blood. Again, I agree. Perhaps this is another reason why Dumbledore did not want Harry growing up in the WW. He did not want Harry to be famous, true, but perhaps he also did not want Harry growing up with the knowledge that he is Gryffindor's heir. Further support of the idea that Harry is Gryffindor's heir has been discussed; the Sorting Hat giving Harry the sword of Gryffindor, the red and gold sparks that shoot from Harry's wand the first time he picks it up,etc. Your heredity doesn't necessarily have anything to do with who you become. Look at the Unabomber. It was his own brother who turned him in. Obviously, in this case, the fact that they shared the same heredity did not relegate his brother to the same fate as the Unabomber himself. > The Chosen One- > This is also a valid option and comon in fairytales. > It could be that among all the drops of Gryffindor > blood out there, the chosen one, the crown prince is > selected or predicted perhaps by the reading of the > stars, or the Gryffindor who purely and unselfishly > displays the characteristics of a true Gryffindor, > or perhaps by searching and finding the 'holy > grail'; the completion of a quest, or perhaps by the > approval, bond, and friendship of a gold and red > pheonix. I am in support of Harry as the "Chosen One". I truly think all canon points to it. As has been discussed endlessly, just why did Voldemort want to kill James and Harry but not necessarily Lily? Why is Voldemort so intent on obtaining Harry's blood for his rebirthing ritual (and I don't believe it's because of the protection thing and Pettigrew doesn't seem to believe it either)? Why is Voldemort so intent on getting rid of Harry? Personally, I think it's because Harry is standing in his way. Voldemort knows there is something very special and very dangerous about Harry and he is very eager to see Harry eradicated from the face of the Earth. In fact, I see this need to rid himself of Harry as consuming Voldemort. So far, the consequences of Voldemort's reappearance in the WW haven't been as severe as I would have expected. Yes, he does murder Cedric, the old Muggle man, and Bertha Jorkins but if Voldemort were truly focused on taking over the WW, wouldn't a lot more people have died by now? I know other parts of the world have come to understand this but I think that we in the U.S. only recently learned that if someone wants nothing more than to rid the Earth of you and your kind, s/he will kill indescriminately and in mass quantities. In his/her mind, the more opposition they are able to eliminate, the better. > Again, the point is here, that the Heir to > Gryffindor could be a 'chosen one' selected not by > purity of blood or direct descendance but by being > the purest, truest, and noblest Gryffindor at heart. > Kind of romanic, don't you think? > I like this idea too. I'm in support of either theory, whether Harry is *the* heir of Gryffindor or if he's chosen because of his purity, courage, and sacrifices. Either way, I do not think the integrity of the choices versus heredity argument is weakened. (In fact, if Harry is the heir because of the choices he makes, even more support is lent to this idea. What a reward for noble behavior!) After all, isn't Dumbledore ultimately giving Harry the choice of whether or not to act and, if Harry does choose to act, how he will go about doing so? ~Nicole, who is sorry that she fell behind with her digests but is glad she finally caught up! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Tue Sep 3 17:24:10 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (grey_wolf_c) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 17:24:10 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts: A tight schedule In-Reply-To: <20020903152415.35561.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43555 I wrote: > Olivia, we KNOW for sure that he didn't go over the maths: she > has said so herself any number of times in interviews. Amy Z asked: > I recall *our* saying so any number of times but can't find an > interview where she admits it. I searched The Goat Pen using > "maths," "math," and "numbers" with no relevant results--can > you give a reference? Barb added: > I'd like this too! Frankly, I've been afraid that folks might think > I'm attacking JKR when I call her "innumerate." I'm merely saying > what I'd heard that she'd said, albeit second-hand. I'd be very > interested to know the first-hand source. I answer: OK, sorry for taking this long, but I just spent an frustrating evening trying to find the quote. And the worst is that I haven't been able to find it. I've racked my brains to try and remeber the context, but I simply cannot remember when and why I read it. In fact, I'm now not entirely sure I read it at all, although something in the back of my mind is suggesting I read it in my own language, which would mean in a newspaper back when I hadn't yet joined the group. That newspaper, of course, is long since recycled (I DO recall reading an interview with JKR in my own language. I'm simply not sure of what it was said in it). So, I think I'm going to jave to retract on those words. I can't be sure that JKR actually said it, or that my mind is playing tricks on me. Sorry. Again, I started a minor apocalypse by saying: > Sinistra is a woman in my translated edition, if that helps. Sg. Amy Z (LOON division) answered > Sorry, would that it did, but to the purist mind it resolves > nothing. Translators have to make their best guess, same as we do, > and AFAWK have no secret information from JKR. Olivia added: > I'd have to agree with Amy. Other discrepancies have been found > between translations. And if we're all going to be as vehement about > canon as you are, GW, I'd say, rule out anything that isn't in the > English version as it's unknown whether it's JK's doing, or a > translator's guess. The English language obviously doesn't require a > feminine or masculine version of a word, while most other languages > do. I'm not sure what language your edition is, but that kind of > thing could definitely be the work of a translator, unless -- going > out on a limb here -- the translators consulted JK for discrepancies > like that. Barb though: > I looked upon Professor Moody dancing with Professor Sinistra at the > Yule Ball as evidence of her gender, since it seemed unlikely that > JKR would suddenly do something so daring as depict two men dancing > together at the Ball (::waves to slash fanfic writers::). I did suggest that she was a woman because my translated edition said so *VERY* difidently, Amy, because I knew you wouldn't accept it. I believe it's a woman myself, but I know it's not canon. I was only putting it forward because not everyopne is a full-scale LOON (I'm myself am still working on becoming one, but adquiring scepticism is very hard, Someday, however, I will qualify. I look forward to it). About the only things I've got in favour are meta-thinking anyway, so I normally don't mention them. I'm going to make an exception, though: 1) Moody dances with her, and I don't think JKR would choose that particular comment to introduce readers to homosexual relations, as in passing. I'd think that Harry would find it much more shocking if she had. 2) She's a she in my translated edition. This doesn't count for much, I know, since, as both Olivia and Amy have pointed out, it's altoghether possible the translator made a leap of faith. In this case, however, my point is that, when I was translator (not fiction, but technical books), any time I had problems with a word/phrase and what the author meant with it, I had almost direct line with the author to consult (only two people in-between: my supervisor and a person in charge of forwarding the questions to the author in batches). In other circunstances, I'd be more sure of my point, but the trouble is that in this particular case, Sinistra, in my language, is very obviously a female name (not that it should mean anything, being a surname and all), but it would be quite shocking to find it preceded by a masculine determinant. It is the fact that the name is so obviously female that makes me think that the translator didn't bother to ask JKR. However, this takes me to the third point: 3) The name is obviously female in my language (yes I know I've said it in point 2, but that was a problem, while now is an advantage). It is so, not only in my language (which I think JKR doesn't know), but also, and this is important, in Portuguese. In Portuguese, I don't think a man would be called Sinistra. Is just ear-jaring, and I assume that JKR was familiar enough with the language to have the same problem (just like you'd find disturbing a girl named Tarzan, I supose). So there you are, the three reasons are, as I've said, meta-thinking, and even then pretty circunstancial, so I can accept that a LOON wouldn't buy it. However, in this case I'm willing to accept that, until JKR says otherwise, Sinistra is a woman. Olivia also commented: > maybe there are teachers who simply choose not to eat at the staff > table. We know that Professor Trelawney chooses not to, for one. > Maybe there are others who don't. Or maybe there are teachers there > who Harry doesn't know because he doesn't have them in class, > therefore doesn't mention them in his descriptions. I know that is the main weak point on the theory that suggests 12 teachers at hogwarts, and I normally remember to add the disclaimer "unless there are other eccentric teachers like Trelawny that don't attend the meals". However, we know that there is only one ghost, so there aren't Binn-equivalents to use. They have to refuse to join the meals (so look for other creatures that wouldn't join them. Is there a vampire as a teacher? Somehow I doubt it - parents had enough trouble with someone who'd only be inclined to bite their children one week out of every four). Olivia again: > Question: Do Professor Sprout and Madam Hooch eat at the staff table? > I have neither my books nor my notes in front of me and can't > remember if they've been mentioned at meals before or not. Sprout is definetely mentioned in the sorting ceremony of GoF, but Hooch is not. Of course, she could be seated in the other side of Dumbledore, where there are five teachers that don't get mentioned (except Moody, which may have sat on that side). Olivia one last time: > All this talk has definitely inspired me into trying to come up with > some more definitive notes on the subject. It's a very interesting > and thought-provoking topic you brought up, Grey Wolf. (I think > you're the one who started it. So many messages coming and going, > it's hard to remember.) > > Olivia It was me indeed, and that was the purpose I put it on in the first place: I like these discussions, and I enjoy them most when they get busy. As I said in the original post, I posted the full idea some time back, but no-one rose to the challenge, so I'm very grateful to all those who have decided to work out how that madhouse can work. I am myself trying to work a workable theory, but so far I think that the only thing that would work would be reducing the time of the classes to less than an hour. Unfortunately, I feel it may be against canon, but I haven't the faintiest idea of were to look for it (either in favour or against). Sergeant Amy Z, Sir! (::Grey Wolf stands to attention, salutes and clicks his heels::), since you seem to be around, could you confirm or deny that? Hope that helps, Grey Wolf, who is very sorry for having introduced an unconfirmed rumour. He had had it inside his mind for so long that it seemed canon. From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Tue Sep 3 18:07:52 2002 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 3 Sep 2002 18:07:52 -0000 Subject: File - VFAQ.html Message-ID: <1031076472.211971629.60942.m12@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43556 An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From olivia at rocketbandit.com Tue Sep 3 15:11:23 2002 From: olivia at rocketbandit.com (Olivia) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 11:11:23 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] LOON - Professor Sinistra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000301c2535c$2a472f00$9ca2e3d8@agstme.adelphia.net> No: HPFGUIDX 43557 Eileen said: "'Mad-Eye Moody was doing an extremely ungainly two-step with Professor Sinistra, who was nervously avoiding his wooden leg.' 365, GoF Which suggests, if it does not absolutely confirm :-), that Sinistra is a woman." Good call! I must have either forgotten that or glazed over it. Thanks, Eileen. :) Olivia From rlundgren at gov.mb.ca Tue Sep 3 16:33:30 2002 From: rlundgren at gov.mb.ca (freya122000) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 16:33:30 -0000 Subject: F & G --The bullies I don't see Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43558 Well, after lurking for awhile I find that I must sally forth and defend the twins. I think the twins are funny. Most of what they have done is just a joke, no harm intended. Over the top and sometimes tasteless but just a joke. I also found Arthurs story about the sugar tongs clamped to the nose of a muggle funny. Do none of you watch Monty Python. One point I must make, they did not "Sneer at Draco" the line was "Contemptuous glance," they are very different statements. When they told Harry about Draco's reaction on the train, they spoke quitely and calmly. They do not shout it to the rest of the school or put on a performance of the event. They even admit that they where uncomfortable with the event. All they where trying to do was make Harry feel better, not make Draco look bad. The scene at the end of GoF seems to have everyone in a twist. Yes they did hex Draco in the back while he was unarmed. Of couse, he had just threatened Harry, Ron and Hermione and also the Weasley family. He is also gloating over the death of a class mate. And let us be fair. They had no way of knowing that Draco & Co. where unarmed. Let us not forget that Draco had already tried to Hex Harry in the back as well as unarmed. I think they showed restraint, if it had been me Draco and his lackies would have had to walk back to London. AS for Dudders lets be real. This listing seems to make more of his weight than anyone in the story. JKR uses Duddley's size as a outward sign of his person. He is a greedy person in all aspects of his life. The TTT thing was just a joke. No one forced Duddley to eat the candy. And knowing F & G I'm sure the effect would have worn off on it's own, with no lasting harm. I belive the F&G will stand with both feet firmly on the side of good in the battle to come. One has to admit it would be funny to see Voldemort taking on Harry with a rubber fish. Freya From fun_n_games_2663 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 3 17:24:03 2002 From: fun_n_games_2663 at yahoo.com (fun_n_games_2663) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 17:24:03 -0000 Subject: More on time travel in PoA Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43559 I'm a new poster. I'm sorry if this has been covered, but I haven't seen it. When Harry first goes through the Shrieking Shack sequence (as we understand it to be the first sequence), and is about to be done in by the Dementors, he is saved by a patronous that we later find out he conjured. When Harry goes through the time turner sequence, he realizes that he is supposed to conjur the patronous and does so. Now, here is my problem--If Harry hadn't already gone back in time once before, wouldn't the Dementors have gotten him the first time? If he hasn't already gone back in time, there won't be anyone to conjur the patronous. I believe that we only read about two sequences in the book, but there must have been others which occurred before what we read. If this is the case, then many possibilities open up, many of which I hate to mention--such as, was PoA in "real time" at all, or was it all a trip back in time? "fun_n_games_2663" From kaityf at jorsm.com Tue Sep 3 18:03:41 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 13:03:41 -0500 Subject: Muggle Mingling Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020903121654.03ba8ec0@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> No: HPFGUIDX 43560 I apologize if this subject has come up. I've been lurking for several months and don't recall having seen it. Anyway... Several people have wondered about where young wizards go to school before they go to Hogwarts. I've wondered that too, and then I've wondered about something that I think is related. If little wizard children go to little wizard schools, it does seem odd that we would hear absolutely nothing about them. I've also gotten the impression -- but that's all it is -- that little wizards and witches stay at home, so the suggestion of homeschooling does seem reasonable. On the other hand, it seems strange for the entire wizard community to rely exclusively on homeschooling to educate all the wizard and witch children. And then I do wonder what the subjects are that are taught. If, however, little wizard children go to Muggle schools, why is Muggle behavior so strange to wizards that they must offer a class at Hogwarts in order to learn about it? Now, leaving aside that idea of wizard children going to Muggle schools, there is still a question of why wizards are so unfamiliar with Muggle life. We learn that Hogsmead is the only wizard-only village in England. That must mean that wizards do live in the same communities with Muggles. Why then are they so unfamiliar with Muggle things? How could they help but notice how Muggles were living and dressing? Why should telephones be so mysterious? Why should it be so hard for them to dress as Muggles. I can understand how Muggles might miss the fact that their neighbors are wizards what with various kinds of bewitching. Of course, it would strike me as odd that some of my neighbors not only didn't have a phone, but barely knew what it was. I suppose even that could be bewitched away, but it wouldn't explain why wizards and witches living among Muggles would be so clueless about the way Muggles live. Thoughts? Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Tue Sep 3 18:41:31 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb P) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 11:41:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: LOON - Professor Sinistra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020903184131.35469.qmail@web13006.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43561 While it is not inconceivable that Moody would dance with a man, it is far less likely that JKR would write about it. IMO, that does in fact meet the LOON standard. --Barb lupinesque wrote:Eileen wrote: > "Mad-Eye Moody was doing an extremely ungainly two-step with Professor > Sinistra, who was nervously avoiding his wooden leg." 365, GoF > > Which suggests, if it does not absolutely confirm :-), that Sinistra > is a woman. and Barbara wrote: >I looked upon Professor Moody dancing with Professor Sinistra at the >Yule Ball as evidence of her gender, since it seemed unlikely that >JKR would suddenly do something so daring as depict two men dancing >together at the Ball (::waves to slash fanfic writers::). Probably, yes, but it doesn't meet the exacting LOON standard of proof. It is conceivable that Moody would dance with a man; there is no pronoun indicating Professor Sinistra's gender; therefore the question remains open. Amy Z Sgt., LOON Enforcement Squad Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mi_shell16 at hotmail.com Tue Sep 3 18:23:20 2002 From: mi_shell16 at hotmail.com (theresnothingtoit) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 18:23:20 -0000 Subject: Boggarts affects on Lupin and Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43564 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lost Feyth" wrote: > I think that Lupin is more afraid of the *sight* of the moon, not the moon > itself. And when the moon is slowly getting bigger over time, and knowing > full well what it will bring. That's why the boggart changed into an image > of the moon, not the moon itself. And as HOLLYDAZE or bboy_mn said (Sorry, I > can't remember which one said it!) you can't be harmed by an image. (Well, > not physically anyways) Just my thoughts. > What I want to know about boggarts is what would happen if you faced one and your greatest fear was not something physical. What if you had a fear of closed spaces or of being alone? What if your greatest fear was someone finding out you were gay? Or perhaps Ron Weaslys fear of spiders will be replaced with the fear of Hermione and the rest of the school finding out how he feels about her? Just a thought. Theresnothingtoit (who wonders what would happen if your greatest fear was a boggart?) From rlundgren at gov.mb.ca Tue Sep 3 18:49:23 2002 From: rlundgren at gov.mb.ca (freya122000) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 18:49:23 -0000 Subject: Black 's treatment of Snape in PoA Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43565 Black does not let Snapes head scrap on the rock roof because he is being crule or thoughtless. He does it because he is suprised by Harry saying that he would like to live with him. He doesn't care because at the moment he is happy at the prospect of Harry coming to live with him, also he does not like Snape and he doesn't have to. I think Snape, Black, Lupin and Potter are some of the most interesting people in the books. However I do belive that we will have to wait for more information as to the dynamics of their relationship before we can judge who is good, bad or ugly. Freya From adatole at yahoo.com Tue Sep 3 18:59:26 2002 From: adatole at yahoo.com (Leon Adato) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 14:59:26 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Boggarts affects on Lupin and Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43566 theresanothingtoit said: What I want to know about boggarts is what would happen if you faced one and your greatest fear was not something physical. What if you had a fear of closed spaces or of being alone? What if your greatest fear was someone finding out you were gay? Or perhaps Ron Weaslys fear of spiders will be replaced with the fear of Hermione and the rest of the school finding out how he feels about her? ***************** We've already seen this. During the final in PoA, Hermione had to be rescued from the Boggart because she couldnt' get past it's impact - turning into McGonnegal who was giviner her a failing grade. The interesting thing (to me, at least) is that Hermione got into the closet knowing full-well that there was a boggart in there, and (one would hope) having an idea of what her worst fear would be. And she still got overwhelmed. The boggart didn't attack her, it just handed her an "F". Leon From pen at pensnest.co.uk Tue Sep 3 20:15:20 2002 From: pen at pensnest.co.uk (Pen Robinson) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 21:15:20 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and the Phoenix In-Reply-To: <1b9.5c7e6db.2aa5db1c@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43567 On Tuesday, September 3, 2002, at 10:30 , heidit at netbox.com wrote: > In a message dated 9/3/2002 5:20:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, > pen at pensnest.co.uk writes: >> In this >> tradition, it would be reasonable for those descended from Godric >> Gryffindor's daughters not to be in the running for the 'Heir of >> Gryffindor' tag. > > > Would that be feasible even if we've seen that on the Slytherin line, > the > descent goes through Tom Riddle's mother? It's something not unheard of > in > British history - didn't Henry Tudor claim the throne by dint of > lineage on > both parents' sides? - or are you just saying that a woman can't be the > "heir" but her son can be? Or are you saying that having a daughter > ends the > line in that particular branch of the family tree? > No, not really. Just pointing out that there is a 'fantasy tradition' of single line son-to-son descent for the 'Heir', which doesn't necessarily apply in the real world. I mean, descent is descent, whether in the male line or the female. Eloise has answered the point about Henry Tudor better than I can! Pen From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com Tue Sep 3 20:19:36 2002 From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 13:19:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [FILK] My Robes are Lilac (or An Ode to My Robes) Message-ID: <20020903201936.72005.qmail@web40311.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43568 My Robes are Lilac (or An Ode to My Robes) to the tune of "Green Grow the Lilacs", an old American folksong based on the 17th century Scottish folksong "Green Grow the Laurels" midi link: http://www.contemplator.com/folk2/lilacs.html Dedicated to the character who wins, IMO, "The most fun to laugh *at*" award, Gilderoy Lockhart. LOCKHART My robes are lilac, the color I love. When fans want to tell me what they?re dreaming of, I use lilac ink with a large peacock quill To write them a thank-you for loving me still. In turquoise robes immaculate I can flaunt, My matching hat set at an angle that jaunts. I also have robes of forget-me-not-blue That match my eyes perfectly. Oh, what a hue! And then there?s my resplendent robes of deep plum; At the dueling club I looked so very handsome. Oh, let?s not forget my robes of palest mauve. And aquamarine robes suit me well, by jove! Jade green robes set off my wavy blond hair, And midnight blue causes the witches to stare. On Valentine?s I wear my robes shocking pink, Then flash all my teeth and give ladies a wink. ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ "Tut, tut --- hardly any of you remembered that my favorite color is *lilac*. I say so in Year with the Yeti." --Gilderoy Lockhart, COS --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From zoomphy at yahoo.com Tue Sep 3 19:04:18 2002 From: zoomphy at yahoo.com (zoomphy) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 19:04:18 -0000 Subject: Muggle Mingling In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020903121654.03ba8ec0@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43569 Carol Bainbridge wrote: "...but it wouldn't explain why wizards and witches living among Muggles would be so clueless about the way Muggles live." I've thought about that too, and it makes me wonder if maybe wizards and witches don't really *want* to know how Muggles live and operate. They almost seem to go out of their way to perpetuate self-imposed ignorance. They have set up a barrier, a thick black line of definite separation between themselves and Muggles. To have a clue, so to speak, of how Muggles are would make the black line more vague. Which, perhaps in their collective mind, would bring them one step closer to being 'known' by Muggles, which they are desperate to avoid. But that's just one of my many trains of thought. K. Aislynnus' Grove http://www2.wcoil.com/~aislynnus From rlundgren at gov.mb.ca Tue Sep 3 19:12:24 2002 From: rlundgren at gov.mb.ca (freya122000) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 19:12:24 -0000 Subject: Minister of Magic at the time of Potters' deaths? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43570 I am new to the list and I must say I have enjoyed lurking. But I do have a question. I'm not sure if this has come up before. I would like to know if anyone has any thoughts on who the minister of magic during the death of the Potters? I'm not even sure it's important, but I would like to know. Freya From brian042 at hotmail.com Tue Sep 3 20:40:06 2002 From: brian042 at hotmail.com (bkb042) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 20:40:06 -0000 Subject: Slytherins heir? Says who? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43571 How did Riddle discover that he was the Heir of Slytherin, anyway? In CoS, Diary!Riddle, while talking to Harry in the Chamber, claims that the blood of Slytherin runs in his veins through his mother's side, yet in the graveyard scene of GoF, Voldemort states that his mother died giving birth to him. So how did he find out? It's not the kind of thing that his father would have told him about even if he had been involved in the childs' upbringing. Nor would it have been included in whatever records were kept at the orphanage where he grew up.(This would be in the late 20's to early30's if Tom finished at Hogwarts in the spring of '45). Is there a geneology section in the Hogwarts library? If so, why hasn't Harry used it? One explaination would be the ability to speak parseltongue. Again, in the Chamber, Diary!Riddle describes himself and Harry as "probably the only two Parselmouths to attend Hogwarts since the great Slytherin himself". A thousand years since Slytherin left Hogwarts and then TWO parselmouths in the same century? Diary! Riddle's use of the word "probably" was prudent because there's no way for him to know for sure. After the incedent at the duelling club, Ron tells Harry that "it's not a very common gift". Either this is the understatement of the year, or the ability just isn't seen (or heard, for that matter) in England very often. If the gift was as rare as Diary!Riddle seems to think, why would Harry's use of it create the stir that it did? It would show up so seldom that no one would have memory of it, and nothing would be written about it other than through association with Slytherin, probably as a footnote in his official bio. Dumbldore speculates that the ability was passed to Harry on the night that Voldemort's AK rebounded. Let us not forget that GINNY, while posessed by Diary!Riddle, opened the Chamber both to release (and presumably command) the basilisk, and also to enter the Chamber herself towards the end of CoS. This gives evidence that the ability can be imparted through an enchated item such as the diary. Working hypothesis: Riddle, as a first year, read the Slytherin bio and was intrigued by the legend of the Chamber of Secrets. He then began to study all that he could over the next few years about Slytherin himself, and his research eventually took him into the restricted section of the library. Being a favorite of almost the entire faculty (Dumbledore excepted), such access should not have posed much of a difficulty. It was in the restricted section, that he obtained the clues to give him the location of the entrance to the Chamber. At this point in my theory, I should point out that I do not believe he was a parselmouth. He had found the tap with the snake scratched on it and dedeuced the parseltongue "password". He then transfigured himself into a snake in order to open the tunnel. (I am not suggesting that he was an animagus; Animagi transform at will but wizards can transfigure themselves with spells as evidenced by Krum in the second trial of the Triwizard tournament.) This is how he gained access to the Chamber and it's contents. One of the items I think he discovered was a "Last Will and Testament" which was enchanted with some of the essence of Salazar Slytherin in much the same way that the diary was imbued with a little of Tom Riddle. It was after Tom's possession by this document that he literally became Slytherin's heir, AND aquired the ability to speak parseltongue because, in a sense, Slytherin HIMSELF now lives! Prediction: The Chamber of Secrets will be the room to be revisited. I fail to understand why Dumbledore hadn't pulled Harry out of class in order to open the Chamber for him at some point in the last two books, or why the twins didn't cajole him into it for the purpose of exploring. I await your criticisms with clenched teeth and closed eyes. Be gentle! bkb042 From MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Sep 3 20:57:15 2002 From: MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM (mitchbailey82) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 20:57:15 -0000 Subject: Wand types In-Reply-To: <009201c252ef$6decebe0$449dcdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43572 "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > First, I've been thinking (oh no!) about wands and wood symbolisms. > Unfortunately, we don't really know the woods of many of the wands. But > I'll work with what we've got. I've been thinking about this too. It's funny we don't know the type of wood/ core for many wizards wands only the select few. And out of the few that we do know the ONLY two to have the same type of wood are Lily and Ron (does this add strength to the Lily related to the Weasleys scenario - I don't know?). Also another thing about Harry's wand's wood Holly - holly is an evergreen tree - in fact I believe (might not be right about this) that it is the only wand made out of an evergreen tree mentioned. Also yew - don't know how much credit there is to this but there's an old saying that is a yew tree is chopped down/ falls down/ dies another yew tree always regrows in its place. and Voldemort was 'chopped down' and then 'regrowed' out of the cauldron (GOF). Don't know much about mahogany apart from the fact that its quite a dark wood. Michelle From mcarlin at ev1.net Tue Sep 3 20:59:07 2002 From: mcarlin at ev1.net (Megan Carlin) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 15:59:07 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Muggle Mingling References: Message-ID: <000d01c2538c$bf211b60$8000a8c0@tom> No: HPFGUIDX 43573 zoomphy said: >I've thought about that too, and it makes >me wonder if maybe wizards >and witches don't really *want* to know >how Muggles live and operate. >They almost seem to go out of their way to >perpetuate self-imposed >ignorance. I agree with this whole-heartedly. It seems to me that all the wizards don't *want* to be like Muggles. I point to proof as Arthur Weasley. He's obsessed with Muggle things, to the point that it affects his professionalism and his home life negatively. And he seems to be of the minority. Most in the WW see him as "eccentric" or at least odd for his obsession with Muggle things. I believe that for Wizards, Muggles are just another necessary in the world and are treated as things to be avoided and not dealt with unless necessary. Agreeingly, Megan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aashby.aashby at verizon.net Tue Sep 3 21:26:37 2002 From: aashby.aashby at verizon.net (theatresm2002) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 21:26:37 -0000 Subject: The Lake: Deep psychological waters? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43574 I've been wondering why only the First Years have to cross the lake to get to Hogwarts at the beginning of the term, and eventually remembered something that mythologist Joseph Campbell said, referring to a mythic character being pulled from the water: "... she had moved out of the rational, conscious sphere into the field of compulsions of the unconscious. That's always what's represented in such adventures under water. The character has slipped out of the realm of controlled action into that of transpersonal compulsions and events." (The Power of Myth, chapter 5 -- titled, appropriately, The Hero's Adventure.) Now, of course the students aren't actually *in* the water -- with the exception of the Creevey boy who falls in (GoF). A closer parallel is crossing the Styx, which makes sense given how heavily JKR draws on classical sources... But in either case, you're still headed to an "Otherworld" (for lack of a better word), some place or thing unknown and potentially dangerous. So --assuming you buy into the idea -- why do only the Firsts need to do it? Is it an initiation rite that can only be done once? I'm guessing that once your unconscious mind has been opened to this "Otherworld," you don't have to undergo the "trial by water" bit again. Any thoughts? Sound reasonable, or has Amy been drinking too much espresso again? Amy "theatresm2002" From miss_dumblydore at yahoo.com Tue Sep 3 21:46:02 2002 From: miss_dumblydore at yahoo.com (Heather Gauen) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 14:46:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Riddle and Astronomy In-Reply-To: <00f701c252ec$d53b7bc0$4a112b18@shprd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <20020903214602.94136.qmail@web20419.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43575 Just a couple of questions- As always, sorry if these've been brought up before ;) First, how on earth did Tom Riddle know he was the heir of Slytherin? His mother died right after he was born, his father left, and he was raised in a muggle orphanage, so presumably no one knew about this before Hogwarts. And obviously no one *at* Hogwarts knew, or else they would have known he was involved in the Chmamber opening. So where did he find out? Also, the Trio takes astronomy (mentioned in SS that they study on Wednesdays at midnight, then mentioned in PoA that Harry wanted a model of the galaxy so he wouldn't have to take astronomy anymore). Doesn't it seem odd, then, that we've never heard about anything that happens in that class, we've never met the teacher, and didn't even learn the teacher's name until a later book? Why is the class so unimportant compared to the others? Off on a similar tangent, in SS, why are the only teachers to put protections on the stone the teachers that Harry has, *with the exception of Sinistra*? (I'm not counting Binns here because he's a ghost.) Wouldn't it have been a more effective obstacle course if every teacher had done something, not just a select few? Okay, thoughts here would be much appreciated! Heather, who had a dream last night that I was captured by Lord Voldemort, then he suddenly turned into my calculus teacher. Coincidence? I think not :) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com From miss_dumblydore at yahoo.com Tue Sep 3 21:48:13 2002 From: miss_dumblydore at yahoo.com (Heather Gauen) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 14:48:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Slytherins heir? Says who? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020903214813.25557.qmail@web20413.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43576 --- bkb042 wrote: > How did Riddle discover that he was the Heir of > Slytherin, > anyway? In CoS, Diary!Riddle, while talking to Harry > in the Chamber, > claims that the blood of Slytherin runs in his veins > through his > mother's side, yet in the graveyard scene of GoF, > Voldemort states > that his mother died giving birth to him. So how did > he find out? I wrote my post before I read this, sorry for repeating it. :) Heather __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com From jodel at aol.com Tue Sep 3 19:40:08 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 15:40:08 EDT Subject: Modest proposal/Scale of things Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43577 >>This comes to (taking the 1000 student statement as a base) around 147-8 students in each year with approximately 20-21 Muggle-borns.<< Oh foo! That's what comes of not porfreading. I got on a roll of dividing by 7 when I should have switched over to dividing by 4. If the average class year size is int the 147-8 range there would be something like 35 Muggle-borns. Still not a lot per year stacked against the overall recorded annual birth rate for the UK and Ireland. Sorry. -JOdel From hp_fan16 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 3 21:05:32 2002 From: hp_fan16 at yahoo.com (gabrielle jones) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 14:05:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: (WAS Harry and the Pheonex) In-Reply-To: <1031041891.1020.64684.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20020903210532.35491.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43578 ok I can't resist. bboy_mn writes: >>The Chosen One- This is also a valid option and comon in fairytales. It could be that among all the drops of Gryffindor blood out there, the chosen one, the crown prince is selected or predicted perhaps by the reading of the stars, or the Gryffindor who purely and unselfishly displays the characteristics of a true Gryffindor, or perhaps by searching and finding the 'holy grail'; the completion of a quest, or perhaps by the approval, bond, and friendship of a gold and red pheonix. Again, the point is here, that the Heir to Gryffindor could be a 'chosen one' selected not by purity of blood or direct descendance but by being the purest, truest, and noblest Gryffindor at heart. Kind of romanic, don't you think? This 'Chosen One' theory doesn't discount choices, because Harry still has to choose and live by the pure, true and noble character of Gryffindor. Just some thoughts. bboy_mn<< How about a "King Arthur, Sword in the stone thing?" Trelawney's prediction, could have been that, "he who able to pull Grffindor's sword from his hat, is the heir to his name." or something like that. Heck, if you wanted you could even continue her prediction to say that the Slytherin heir would attack the Grffindor heir, or i don't know. And maybe, ok i know i'm streching it a bit, but Dumbledore, too, could be the heir, because when fighting against Grindelwald, he used Grffindor's sword. Then Harry and he are both the heirs. Even Fawkes could play into it, like whoever controls the sword gets the bird. I don't know. I'm really just making a fun plot line, i know there must be a million reasons it can't work. But there must be more to the sword. Shoot me down gently. Gabrielle --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rvotaw at i-55.com Tue Sep 3 23:38:38 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 18:38:38 -0500 Subject: Harry going to Dursleys for the summer and Molly Weasley Message-ID: <00df01c253a3$07e7c680$33a2cdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 43579 Okay, maybe I'm getting bored here, though I don't see how, but here we go. I'm now disecting the interactions between Molly Weasley and Uncle Vernon. SS/PS: Molly greets Harry as he comes through the barrier. He thanks her for the sweater and fudge at Christmas, she says it was nothing. Then Uncle Vernon shows up, says "Ready, are you?" Mrs. Weasley exclaims, "You must be Harry's family!" To which Uncle Vernon replies "In a manner of speaking. Hurry up, boy, we haven't got all day." And walks away. CoS: We have no interaction here, we leave them as they enter the Muggle world. PoA: Uncle Vernon is standing a good distance from Mr. and Mrs. Weasley, eyeing them suspiciously, and when Mrs. Weasley hugged Harry in greeting, his worst suspicions about them seemed confirmed. This goes on to Harry's brief conversation with Uncle Vernon about his godfather. **note here, "his worst suspicions about them seemed confirmed." So I take it he didn't quite recognize Mrs. Weasley? But now he knows for sure. GoF: Uncle Vernon was waiting beyond the barrier. Mrs. Weasley was close by him. She hugged Harry very tightly when she saw him and whispered in his ear, "I think Dumbledore will let you come to us later in the summer. Keep in touch, Harry." Skip thanks from George, etc. Harry then follows Uncle Vernon silently from the station. Now, here's my point. In GoF, we know Uncle Vernon knows who Mrs. Weasley is, right? He's also had an up close and personal encounter with Mr. Weasley in the fairly recent past, just to keep things in mind. Now in GoF, Mrs. Weasley is close by Uncle Vernon. Can't see Mrs. Weasley keeping quiet while waiting, can you? Nah. Wonder what she had to say? She said enough to silence Uncle Vernon for the time being at lesat. Here's my opinion on the matter. Our dear, sweet, loving Mrs. Weasley just may have threatened Uncle Vernon a bit. Something like, "If you dare to harm a hair on that boy's head I will personally turn you into an inchworm." Or something of the sort. With perhaps a gentle reminder that she is not in danger of being expelled from Hogwarts should she desire to use magic. Thoughts on the matter? Richelle ------------------------------------ Richelle R. Votaw 1st grade teacher Kentwood Elementary ------------------------------------ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rvotaw at i-55.com Tue Sep 3 23:38:50 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 18:38:50 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and the Phoenix/ McGonagall References: Message-ID: <00e001c253a3$10279780$33a2cdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 43580 Mike Zitzmann writes: > the Dursley's for safe keeping. With that in mind, if James had > a pet Phoenix, Hmm we need a name, ok let's say the birds name > was "Fawkes", this magical bird would be basically > homeless. I doubt 1 year old Harry would be up to the task of > feeding him, nor would anyone else at the Dursley's. Now we have > a bird that needs a home until Harry reaches an age that he can care > for it. Who better else than Dumbledore? Not to mention, JK said > Harry might get another pet! Hmm, this is possible. I do think that Harry is the (or an) Heir of Gryffindor. However, I also think there is something else to it. Something Dumbledore doesn't want Harry to know. Until he is ready, of course. Well, first of all it wouldn't be smart to tell a 11 year old, by the way, you're the Heir of Gryffindor. Although at that point all Harry'd have known to say was "Okay. And?" However, it does sound impressive even if one doesn't understand all the ins and outs. Still, I think there's something more, something deeper and darker that is the true reason Voldemort was after the Potters. And I can't quite put my finger on it, naturally. Still, let's go on a darker path for a few moments. Could the Potters have been working undercover for someone? Doing what? Perhaps something that would sound bad, even if it weren't. Which would be why Dumbledore's keeping it from Harry. Or I could be in left field again. :) > Ah...I read some interesting posts about MCGonagalls past (what a very > interesting theory about her being the evil, just think about that- it would > be the classic British thriller solution- the one you expect it being the > least or the one you never even recognized, is the murder- gee, very I still don't buy into the Evil McGonagall theory. In fact, I think there is a logical explanation for her stiffness. I think that perhaps in the past she allowed herself to get too close to her Gryffindor students. And it caused her much emotional suffering. So now she stays back, a bit standoffish, and tries not to get attached. She's not very successful, she does, after all, have tears in her eyes when Harry gives her his brilliant story of why he and Ron were sneaking away (to see Hermione in the hospital wing CoS). I just *like* McGonagall, therefore she cannot be evil. Got it? :) Of course, I liked Mad Eye Moody too, though he wasn't even Mad Eye Moody. Richelle From mcarlin at ev1.net Tue Sep 3 21:41:59 2002 From: mcarlin at ev1.net (Megan Carlin) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 16:41:59 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Lake: Deep psychological waters? References: Message-ID: <004a01c25392$bbc0f1b0$8000a8c0@tom> No: HPFGUIDX 43581 theatresm2002 wrote: >So --assuming you buy into the idea -- why do only the Firsts need to >do it? Is it an initiation rite that can only be done once? I'm >guessing that once your unconscious mind has been opened to >this "Otherworld," you don't have to undergo the "trial by water" bit >again. I always just thought it was to give them a good view of Hogwarts. From what I'd gather, the lake would be the best way to get a good look at the castle. Of course, there could be some greater reference intended (as we all know, like you said) that JKR has a propensity to use ancient mythology for paralells in the WW. I'm not sure. I'd like to think there was a better reason than showing off the school grounds. Site-seeingly, Megan From iwant12 at hotmail.com Tue Sep 3 22:24:31 2002 From: iwant12 at hotmail.com (fruhu) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 22:24:31 -0000 Subject: Black 's treatment of Snape in PoA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43582 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "freya122000" wrote: > Black does not let Snapes head scrap on the rock roof because he is > being crule or thoughtless. He does it because he is suprised by > Harry saying that he would like to live with him. He doesn't care > because at the moment he is happy at the prospect of Harry coming to > live with him, also he does not like Snape and he doesn't have to. Good point. I > think Snape, Black, Lupin and Potter are some of the most interesting > people in the books. However I do belive that we will have to wait > for more information as to the dynamics of their relationship before > we can judge who is good, bad or ugly. Freya I agree that Black, Lupin and especially Snape are some of the most interesting and complex characters in the HP world. However, I don't think Harry's character is very interesting. As a matter of fact I think he's quite predictable. >From another Freya ;) From kmapes at uclink.berkeley.edu Tue Sep 3 22:41:10 2002 From: kmapes at uclink.berkeley.edu (Katie Mapes) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 15:41:10 -0700 Subject: Hogwarts- A Tight Schedule In-Reply-To: <1031068901.2446.98904.m8@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20020903153701.00a9a9e0@uclink.berkeley.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 43583 I just wanted to point out a couple of things on the scheduling debate that I haven't seen anyone mention so far (my apologies if someone did and I missed it). First, there seems to be more than one house per class, in a lot of cases. For example, Harry talks about having double potions with the Slytherins. Second, they don't have every class every day or in a regular schedule (hence having things like "double potions"). So, say Snape teaches 14 potions classes (two classes per year) 3 times a week, and assuming each class period is an hour, that's a 42 hour work week. When you factor in grading papers and such that's a long work week, but it doesn't seem impossible. The class I'm curious about is DADA which the Gryffindors seem to have by themselves. Is it possible that sometimes the houses combine for classes and sometimes they don't? Or do they only have, say, one or two DADA lessons per week? "Katie Mapes" From doffy99 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 3 23:15:49 2002 From: doffy99 at yahoo.com (doffy99) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 23:15:49 -0000 Subject: The Lake: Deep psychological waters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43584 "theatresm2002" wrote: > I've been wondering why only the First Years have to cross the lake > to get to Hogwarts at the beginning of the term, and eventually > remembered something that mythologist Joseph Campbell said, referring > to a mythic character being pulled from the water: > > "... she had moved out of the rational, conscious sphere into the > field of compulsions of the unconscious. That's always what's > represented in such adventures under water. The character has > slipped out of the realm of controlled action into that of > transpersonal compulsions and events." (The Power of Myth, chapter > 5 -- titled, appropriately, The Hero's Adventure.) > > Now, of course the students aren't actually *in* the water -- with > the exception of the Creevey boy who falls in (GoF). A closer > parallel is crossing the Styx, which makes sense given how heavily > JKR draws on classical sources... > > But in either case, you're still headed to an "Otherworld" (for lack > of a better word), some place or thing unknown and potentially > dangerous. > > So --assuming you buy into the idea -- why do only the Firsts need to > do it? Is it an initiation rite that can only be done once? I'm > guessing that once your unconscious mind has been opened to > this "Otherworld," you don't have to undergo the "trial by water" bit > again. > > Any thoughts? Sound reasonable, or has Amy been drinking too much > espresso again? > > Amy "theatresm2002" There is a logistics problem that the lake solves. All first years need to be sorted. To give it more pomp and circumstance the school decided that the non-first years, should be in the hall and seated BEFORE the first years come in. This makes them realize how many people are being affected by this decision of what house a person goes too. It also gives the house the chance to cheer for their new members. If EVERYONE came by lake, then all would arrive at the same time. Same if they all came by carriage. This would mean the first years would then have to be seperated out in the Great Hall and wait while the older students got to their seats. Because crossing the lake Takes longer than going by carriage, this time gives the NON first years the chance to catch up on the ride and still have time to get into the hall and get seated without holding the first years up for very long. My opinion is that its all a matter of timing. Logistics. Making sure that everyone is in place on time. :) -Jeff From kellybroughton at yahoo.com Wed Sep 4 02:38:46 2002 From: kellybroughton at yahoo.com (kelly broughton) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 19:38:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Slytherins heir? Says who? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020904023846.64805.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43585 --- bkb042 wrote, when hypothesizing on how Riddle found out about his heritage: > This is how he gained access to the Chamber and it's contents. One > of the items I think he discovered was a "Last Will and Testament" > which was enchanted with some of the essence of Salazar Slytherin in > much the same way that the diary was imbued with a little of Tom > Riddle. It was after Tom's possession by this document that he > literally became Slytherin's heir, AND aquired the ability to speak > parseltongue because, in a sense, Slytherin HIMSELF now lives! Although I now understand that the 'ascendent vs descendent' debate is now finished with the agreement that the ascendent comment was actually a mistake, perhaps your theory is what Rowling had in mind while writing CoS, and thus this is what caused her to write the 'deliberately' wrong word? Or IS it actually a mistake? There will be an explanation sometime in the future (I hope!), and this concept is probrably nowhere near what's going on in Rowling's head... but it is still a very interesting concept. -kel __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Wed Sep 4 04:50:37 2002 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (coriolan_cmc2001) Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 04:50:37 -0000 Subject: Glory, Glory Ford Anglia (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43586 Glory, Glory Ford Anglia (From Cos, Chap. 15) To the tune of The Battle Hymn of the Republic (a Julia Ward Howe filk!) Hear the original at: http://www.contemplator.com/folk2/battle.html Dedicated to Felicia Rickmann THE SCENE: The Forbidden Forest. HARRY & RON, about to served up as entr?e items to the kin of Aragog, are rescued, deus ex machina, by Arthur Weasley's feral Flying Ford Anglia. RON Mine eye has seen the glory of the coming of our Ford He's survived the Whomping Willow Tree that both of us deplored It's become our fondest hope that now the pedal will be floored Forward our Ford goes on! BOTH Glory, glory Ford Anglia We're so very glad to see ya! Aragog, it's time to flee ya! Our Ford goes forging on! HARRY Woodward followed the money, and Astaire followed the Fleet We followed lines of spiders that from Hogwarts did retreat And we soon met up with Aragog, who thinks we're good to eat Then Ford came flying on! BOTH Glory, glory Ford Anglia You magic automobile, ya! You're the best thing on four wheel-sah Let's go forth on our Ford! HARRY The Ford is really sparking up, into high gear it shifts Between us and the spiders there's an ever-growing width If ever meet a villain like the Dark Lord of the Sith Let's get on board our Ford! BOTH Glory, glory Ford Anglia Beautiful as any Veela Love to hear those tires squeal-ah! Forthwith we'll call our Ford! (The Ford takes HARRY, RON & Fang to the edge of the Forest) RON We find that Hagrid's innocent, though his pets are quite nasty But now my father's auto we must make an honoree As he drove us through the foliage, let him drive so he'll stay free May the Force be with our Ford! (As the Ford drives off back into the Forest, HARRY and RON offer a parting salute) BOTH Glory, glory Ford Anglia Blessings be upon your deal-ah We'll not for spiders be a meal-ah A fortress is our Ford! Glory, glory Ford Anglia Glory, glory Ford Anglia Glory, glory Ford Anglia May the Force be with our Ford! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Wed Sep 4 07:17:48 2002 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 07:17:48 -0000 Subject: Riddle and Astronomy In-Reply-To: <20020903214602.94136.qmail@web20419.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43587 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Heather Gauen wrote: > > Off on a similar tangent, in SS, why are the only > teachers to put protections on the stone the teachers > that Harry has, *with the exception of Sinistra*? (I'm > not counting Binns here because he's a ghost.) > Wouldn't it have been a more effective obstacle course > if every teacher had done something, not just a select > few? > Well, for one, I'm not sure what defences Sinestra, Binns, or Sybil would be able to put up. Also, the entire situation seemed set up to let Harry & co in. Hagrid *gave* Harry a flute to get past Fluffy. While Hermione got him past the Devils Snare, that obstacle seemed geared for if Neville came along, with his knowledge of herbology. The winged keys were geared towards Harry, with his Quidditch skills. The chess set was for Ron. The potions puzzle was aimed at Hermione. And Dumbledore had already gave Harry all the information about how the mirror of Erisid worked. The puzzles were obviously meant to be solved by Harry, Hermione, Ron, and Neville in concert. (And it's quite lucky Hermione knew about the Devils Snare, since things obviously didn't go quite according to plan. The big question, naturally, is why Dumbledore wanted Harry to reach the stone, since obviously they could have put better defences around it. (An variant of the age circle, for example, keeping anyone under 600 out.) --Arcum From kaityf at jorsm.com Wed Sep 4 00:55:31 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 19:55:31 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Muggle Mingling In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020903121654.03ba8ec0@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020903194601.03b0e090@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> No: HPFGUIDX 43588 >Carol Bainbridge wrote: > > >"...but it wouldn't explain why wizards and witches living among >Muggles would be so clueless about the way Muggles live." K. said: >I've thought about that too, and it makes me wonder if maybe wizards >and witches don't really *want* to know how Muggles live and operate. >They almost seem to go out of their way to perpetuate self-imposed >ignorance. They have set up a barrier, a thick black line of definite >separation between themselves and Muggles. To have a clue, so to >speak, of how Muggles are would make the black line more vague. >Which, perhaps in their collective mind, would bring them one step >closer to being 'known' by Muggles, which they are desperate to avoid. > >But that's just one of my many trains of thought. That's a pretty good train. I hadn't thought about that. Still, it strikes me as odd that wizards could miss the basics of Muggle daily life. If they live in a Muggle village, among Muggles, how could they avoid seeing/hearing Muggles on telephones? I assume public phones are available and certainly wizards would notice that Muggles weren't shouting into them. It's funny to read about Ron yelling in the phone, but it would have made more sense if wizards and Muggles lived in separate areas. But I think what you say makes a lot of sense for the more minor details of Muggle life. Megan added: > It seems to me that all the wizards don't *want* to be like Muggles. > >I point to proof as Arthur Weasley. He's obsessed with Muggle things, to >the point that it affects his professionalism and his home life >negatively. And he seems to be of the minority. Most in the WW see him as >"eccentric" or at least odd for his obsession with Muggle things. > >I believe that for Wizards, Muggles are just another necessary in the >world and are treated as things to be avoided and not dealt with unless >necessary. I think you're probably right that all wizards don't want to be like Muggles. I don't think any of them want to *be* like Muggles. However, I was thinking more about wizards *knowing* about Muggle life rather than *participating* in Muggle life. I don't need to want to live like my neighbors to know that they drive cars, have a telephone, etc. You do make an interesting point about the attitudes of wizards toward Muggles, though. Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From kaityf at jorsm.com Wed Sep 4 02:31:53 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 21:31:53 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizard World (was Why I Dislike The Twins/Toon Talk . . .harsh WW) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020902112616.04613c20@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020903212341.01eb9ec0@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> No: HPFGUIDX 43589 Carol wrote: > I'm just not too sure what a Muggle could do against a dark wizard > as powerful as Voldemort, not to mention his followers. After all, even > most wizards didn't have much of a chance against him." Chris answered: > I think that there is a fundamental different (aside from the > use/non-use of magic) between the Wizarding World and the Muggle > one. While Wizards have strange powers, they are still HUMAN. Even > Voldemort is still human, with human vulnabilities. I suspect that > Wizards are strong individually, while Muggles are strong in groups. to > make three points: > > 1) Magic needs emotional strenth as well as the abillity to cast > spells. Remenber Moody/Crouch in GOF, where he comments that the massed > strenth of the Fourth Years could cast the AK unforgivable curse and he > would not get as much as a nosebleed. Therefore, possibly wizards can > only cast a limited number of spells without rest. > > 2) as I said above, wizards are human. Muggle bullets will kill them > just as effectivly as the AK curse. > > 3) We do not know of any spell that is equivilent to the Atomic > Bomb. If something like that existed, surley it would be one of the > unforgivables? I agree with all you said above. However, it doesn't change the fact that the Muggles don't stand much of a chance against Voldemort, particularly if he gathers up his followers again. A gun with bullets that can kill a human wizard won't do a Muggle much good if the Muggle is disarmed by a wizard. And one doesn't have to be a very powerful wizard to master that spell. Second years are able to master it quite well. I suspect that full-grown, powerful wizards have much more powerful spells that can be used to disarm and make pretty ineffective, a good size group of Muggles. As for wizards needing to rest after casting a limited number of spells, I don't think I saw anything in the books that would indicate that to be the case. Have I missed something? This sounds more like something from an RPG than from HP! Interesting thought, but it sure would change the dynamics of Voldemort and his supporters and their activities in the world, wizard or Muggle. Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From cmikhailovic at yahoo.com Wed Sep 4 04:44:50 2002 From: cmikhailovic at yahoo.com (cmikhailovic) Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 04:44:50 -0000 Subject: Running Weasel: Folklore or Fakelore? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43590 I have searched in every folklore text in my possession, and have yet to come across a reference to this so-called "Legend of Running Weasel" that keeps being mentioned. You know, that claim that "Ron Weasley" is based upon Running Weasel, a legendary hero who played chess and whose greatest opponent was a yellow rat? Yeah. Well, it doesn't appear in any of the major collections of folk legends that I am aware of. Now, just because I haven't come across it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, certainly; just that it would have to be pretty obscure for it not to make it into Briggs' monumental _Dictionary of British Folk Tales_, at least. In fact, the only place I have ever seen this "legend" has been in HP sources and discussions, but never with any footnotes or references. If anyone can find a legitimate, scholarly, NON-HP text that mentions this legend, I'd love to see it. If not, maybe it's time to put this bit of fakelore to rest. Catja --um. M.A. in Folklore from Ohio State University. From texasflood331 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 4 05:50:44 2002 From: texasflood331 at yahoo.com (texasflood331) Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 05:50:44 -0000 Subject: More on time travel in PoA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43591 Dimensional and/or parallel divergence of timelines and time travel are two different things. If we follow theory, there has to be an instance in one of the timelines where Harry gets away (and some where he doesnt) in able to perform the Patronus spell. This being the case, the timeline resumed where Harry rescued himself. I think the assumption of the combination of time travel and multiple timeline divergence is the best answer. -Steve --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "fun_n_games_2663" wrote: > I'm a new poster. I'm sorry if this has been covered, but I haven't > seen it. When Harry first goes through the Shrieking Shack sequence > (as we understand it to be the first sequence), and is about to be > done in by the Dementors, he is saved by a patronous that we later > find out he conjured. When Harry goes through the time turner > sequence, he realizes that he is supposed to conjur the patronous and > does so. Now, here is my problem--If Harry hadn't already gone back > in time once before, wouldn't the Dementors have gotten him the first > time? If he hasn't already gone back in time, there won't be anyone > to conjur the patronous. I believe that we only read about two > sequences in the book, but there must have been others which occurred > before what we read. If this is the case, then many possibilities > open up, many of which I hate to mention--such as, was PoA in "real > time" at all, or was it all a trip back in time? > > "fun_n_games_2663" From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Wed Sep 4 07:41:41 2002 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net) Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 03:41:41 -0400 Subject: COS Hallowe'en feast Message-ID: <670E6E36.232F4E1F.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> No: HPFGUIDX 43592 I have a question that I don't recall seeing discussed (though I have been away for nearly a month). I have been re-reading COS to Ben (younger son) and am wondering about the first petrification (Mrs Norris) which takes place during the Hallowe'en feast. As I understand the working of the diary, Ginny would have to have been present to release and control the basilisk, and therefore not at the feast. Wouldn't her absence have been noted? David __________________________________________________________________ The NEW Netscape 7.0 browser is now available. Upgrade now! http://channels.netscape.com/ns/browsers/download.jsp Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ From pat_mahony at hotmail.com Wed Sep 4 08:06:28 2002 From: pat_mahony at hotmail.com (the_air_vents_of_abduction) Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 08:06:28 -0000 Subject: Riddle and Astronomy In-Reply-To: <20020903214602.94136.qmail@web20419.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43593 Heather wrote: > Off on a similar tangent, in SS, why are the only > teachers to put protections on the stone the teachers > that Harry has, *with the exception of Sinistra*? (I'm > not counting Binns here because he's a ghost.) > Wouldn't it have been a more effective obstacle course > if every teacher had done something, not just a select > few? I think the reason Sinistra didn't contribute something was because her area of expertise was not in an area that would provide much protection. A star chart wouldn't be much to stop Voldemort! Quirrel. Although you do raise an interesting point, about the teachers being a select few- Why wasn't the CoMC professor consulted? Sure they had Fluffy, but another dangerous beast wouldn't go astray? But then again, seeing as it was the first book, it is quite feasible that she hadn't thought up the CoMC position yet. Hmm, looks like I answered my own question. . . Oh well Roo Avoid air vents at any cost- you never who might pull you in From eloiseherisson at aol.com Wed Sep 4 08:24:11 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 04:24:11 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Slytherins heir? Says who? Message-ID: <180.d1292c5.2aa71d2b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43594 Brian: > How did Riddle discover that he was the Heir of Slytherin, > anyway? In CoS, Diary!Riddle, while talking to Harry in the Chamber, > claims that the blood of Slytherin runs in his veins through his > mother's side, yet in the graveyard scene of GoF, Voldemort states > that his mother died giving birth to him. So how did he find out? > It's not the kind of thing that his father would have told him about > even if he had been involved in the childs' upbringing. Nor would it > have been included in whatever records were kept at the orphanage > where he grew up.(This would be in the late 20's to early30's if Tom > finished at Hogwarts in the spring of '45). > > Eloise: Ah...but assuming his mother had also been at Hogwarts, there were likely to be other students who knew her family, some of the staff were likely to have known her. Perhaps the old head of Slytherin house quietly took him aside one day and told him. I think there are ways he could have found out. Brian: >Is there a geneology >section in the Hogwarts library? If so, why hasn't Harry used it? Eloise: Harry never opens a book unless he has to! ;-) Brian:> > One explaination would be the ability to speak parseltongue. > Again, in the Chamber, Diary!Riddle describes himself and Harry > as "probably the only two Parselmouths to attend Hogwarts since the > great Slytherin himself". A thousand years since Slytherin left > Hogwarts and then TWO parselmouths in the same century? Diary! > Riddle's use of the word "probably" was prudent because there's no > way for him to know for sure. After the incedent at the duelling > club, Ron tells Harry that "it's not a very common gift". Either > this is the understatement of the year, or the ability just isn't > seen (or heard, for that matter) in England very often. If the gift > was as rare as Diary!Riddle seems to think, why would Harry's use of > it create the stir that it did? It would show up so seldom that no > one would have memory of it, and nothing would be written about it > other than through association with Slytherin, probably as a > footnote in his official bio. Eloise: I think you've put your finger on it. It is *extremely* rare (to say the least), but it was one of the things Slytherin was *famous* for (COS, 147, UK PB). Rather than being a footnote, I think that everyone except Harry *immediately* made the connection. I also think that there may well have been other Parselmouths in the interim, who had the good sense to keep their ability hidden! Harry would have, I'm sure, if he'd realised the implications. Brian: Dumbldore speculates that the ability > was passed to Harry on the night that > Voldemort's AK rebounded. Let us not forget that GINNY, while posessed by > Diary!Riddle, opened the Chamber both to release (and presumably command) > the basilisk, and also to enter the Chamber herself towards the end of CoS. > This gives > evidence that the ability can be imparted through an enchated item > such as the diary. Eloise: IIRC, it is Riddle who says that Ginny opened the Chamber; Dumbledore says that it was opened by the same person as last time, i.e. *Riddle*. As you say, Ginny was possessed by Riddle, he was pouring his *soul* into her. If Ginny's mouth spoke Parseltongue, then it was Riddle who spoke through her. In a sense, the ability was passed on through the diary, because the possession happened via the diary. But I don't think that Ginny *is* a Parselmouth in the way Harry is. I don't think the ability outlasted the possession. Brian:> > Working hypothesis: Riddle, as a first year, read the Slytherin > bio and was intrigued by the legend of the Chamber of Secrets. He > then began to study all that he could over the next few years about > Slytherin himself, and his research eventually took him into the > restricted section of the library. Being a favorite of almost the > entire faculty (Dumbledore excepted), such access should not have > posed much of a difficulty. It was in the restricted section, that > he obtained the clues to give him the location of the entrance to > the Chamber. At this point in my theory, I should point out that I > do not believe he was a parselmouth. Eloise: You mean that he is not yet a Parselmouth at this stage of the theory? And yes, we know he did five years' research before finding the entrance. Brian: He had found the tap with the > snake scratched on it and dedeuced the > parseltongue "password". He then transfigured himself into a snake in order > to open the tunnel. (I am not suggesting that he was an animagus; Animagi > transform at will but wizards can transfigure themselves with spells as > evidenced > by Krum in the second trial of the Triwizard tournament.) > This is how he gained access to the Chamber and it's contents. One > of the items I think he discovered was a "Last Will and Testament" > which was enchanted with some of the essence of Salazar Slytherin in > much the same way that the diary was imbued with a little of Tom > Riddle. It was after Tom's possession by this document that he > literally became Slytherin's heir, AND aquired the ability to speak > parseltongue because, in a sense, Slytherin HIMSELF now lives! Eloise: That's an interesting theory and I think it works, although it depends on a few things for which we have no canonical proof. But doesn't it also imply that Slytherin must also live in Harry via the curse that failed? Brian:> > Prediction: The Chamber of Secrets will be the room to be > revisited. I fail to understand why Dumbledore hadn't pulled Harry > out of class in order to open the Chamber for him at some point in > the last two books, or why the twins didn't cajole him into it for > the purpose of exploring. Eloise: The key thing was that no-one knew where to look for the entrance. Harry couldn't have found it if they hadn't put two and two together and realised that Myrtle was the basilisk's last victim. And just being a Parselmouth wasn't enough: Harry couldn't even manage to speak Parseltongue without a lot of effort at visualising the scratched snake as a real one, so he couldn't have just gone round the castle making a command to 'open up' in Parseltongue until he found it. Also no-one, not even Dumbledore, realised that the monster *was* a basilisk and that it was using the plumbing to get around. I wonder if they would even have *thought* to look at the plumbing system? Perhaps using the plumbing was Riddle's idea (IIRC, the monster had never been released before and therefore hadn't needed a way to get around): the true entrance to the *Chamber* seems to be that at the end of the tunnel, to my mind. (Don't ask me how he found it, though!) This would answer the problem that has beene voiced over the entrance to the Chamber which Slytherin created a millennium ago being in a relatively modern bathroom fitting. As for the twins, they thought they knew every last inch of the place already. I don't suppose they would think that Harry could find something they hadn't. I don't think Parseltongue was the only thing necessary to open the Chamber. I think that Harry could only get in because Riddle had already done it, unlocked it, as it were. The legend to which Prof Binns refers is quite specific: only *Slytherin's true heir* would be able to open it. (COS, 114, UK PB). This seems to be what Riddle understood. And that, of course leads us right back to the discussion on what is meant by an 'heir'. There doesn't seem here to be any indication that being Slytherin's heir is something that is passed on from generation to generation, rather that there was to be *one* future, true heir, more in the line of the 'chosen one' that we have been discussing re Gryffindor's heir. I wonder if Helga Hufflepuff and Rowena Ravenclaw have true heirs, too? > > I await your criticisms with clenched teeth and closed eyes. Be > gentle! > Wasn't that bad, was it? I hope not. :-) Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Wed Sep 4 08:59:35 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (grey_wolf_c) Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 08:59:35 -0000 Subject: COS Hallowe'en feast In-Reply-To: <670E6E36.232F4E1F.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43595 David wrote: > I have been re-reading COS to Ben (younger son) and am wondering > about the first petrification (Mrs Norris) which takes place during > the Hallowe'en feast. As I understand the working of the diary, Ginny > would have to have been present to release and control the basilisk, > and therefore not at the feast. Wouldn't her absence have been > noted? > > David I don't thik she would necesarily be missed. After all, in that same Halloween party, the triad (HRH) went to the deathday party, and people didn't miss them that much. Besides, Ginny didn't have to be away for that long: it has been especulated that there must be another way into the chamber, since not everyone has a tame phoenix to get the out through Mirtle's bathroom. Ginny only had to leave for like ten minutes, reach the Chamber, give specific orders to the basilisk, and get back. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Wed Sep 4 09:07:33 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (grey_wolf_c) Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 09:07:33 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts- A Tight Schedule In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20020903153701.00a9a9e0@uclink.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43596 Katie Mapes wrote: > I just wanted to point out a couple of things on the scheduling > debate that I haven't seen anyone mention so far (my apologies if > someone did and I missed it). First, there seems to be more than one > house per class, in a lot of cases. For example, Harry talks about > having double potions with the Slytherins. Second, they don't have > every class every day or in a regular schedule (hence having things > like "double potions"). So, say Snape teaches 14 potions classes (two > classes per year) 3 times a week, and assuming each class period is > an hour, that's a 42 hour work week. When you factor in grading > papers and such that's a long work week, but it doesn't seem > impossible. Both things, and many more considerations, were included in my original post in the thread, # 43419. Please read it, because I repeat myself enough as it is, without working through the maths again here. > The class I'm curious about is DADA which the Gryffindors seem to > have by themselves. Is it possible that sometimes the houses combine > for classes and sometimes they don't? Or do they only have, say, one > or two DADA lessons per week? > > "Katie Mapes" I don't understand your question, Katie. As far as we know from the books, some classes are taken individually and some are taken in groups of two houses. However, these arrangements are permanant. That is, there are no potions clases (yet) that have been taken by one house only, and no DADA clases that have combined several houses. DADA lessons, as far as we know, are two hours a week. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Wed Sep 4 09:18:07 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (grey_wolf_c) Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 09:18:07 -0000 Subject: Harry and the Phoenix/ McGonagall In-Reply-To: <00e001c253a3$10279780$33a2cdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43597 Richelle Votaw wrote: > Still, I think there's something more, something deeper and darker > that is the true reason Voldemort was after the Potters. And I can't > quite put my finger on it, naturally. Still, let's go on a darker > path for a few moments. Could the Potters have been working > undercover for someone? Doing what? Perhaps something that would > sound bad, even if it weren't. Which would be why Dumbledore's > keeping it from Harry. Or I could be in left field again. :) > > Richelle I don't believe in the heir theory myself, and you've just touched one of the words that make my favourite theory run: "undercover". According to my (exteneded) version of MAGIC DISHWASHER, the Potters were working in a secret project for Dumbledore, as part of the ongoing plans of Dumbledore to beat Voldemort. Voldemort heard of it through his spy, and decided that it had to be stopped, at least James' investigation. As far as I'm willing to go, Lily was studying the ancient magic (especially, ancient protection spells), and James was working on some magic that involved Harry in some way. For example, a magic formulae that increased a wizard's power, but in this case your guess is as good as mine. Dumbledore knew that what they were doing was very important, so he encouraged them to go into hiding, and finally someone though of the Secret keeper spell. Voldemort's reason of killing the Potters was that he was suspicious and afraid of what they might discover, especially of what James might discover (Lily's study would have been ancient spells with love component, and Voldemort wouldn't understand what good those would possibly do, so that expalins why Lily didn't have to die). So, to prevent James form discovering something, he decied to destroy him and the notes of the experiment (including Harry). Of course, what LV didn't understand was that Lily had made discoveries as well, and that one of the spells she finds would protect Harry form thew AK. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From crussell at arkansas.net Wed Sep 4 16:31:28 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 16:31:28 -0000 Subject: Riddle and Astronomy In-Reply-To: <20020903214602.94136.qmail@web20419.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43598 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Heather Gauen wrote: > > > Also, the Trio takes astronomy (mentioned in SS that > they study on Wednesdays at midnight, then mentioned > in PoA that Harry wanted a model of the galaxy so he > wouldn't have to take astronomy anymore). Doesn't it > seem odd, then, that we've never heard about anything > that happens in that class, we've never met the > teacher, and didn't even learn the teacher's name > until a later book? Why is the class so unimportant > compared to the others? > > Heather, who had a dream last night that I was > captured by Lord Voldemort, then he suddenly turned > into my calculus teacher. Coincidence? I think not :) > > IMO, there seems to be an atmosphere of disdain for any type of "fortune-telling" activity among the majority of teachers at Hogwarts. Astronomy ties in with astrology/the zodiac i.e. fortune- telling based on the reading of the stars (and yes, I do know that there is a difference between the two). IMO, perhaps astronomy is looked upon in the same light as the Divination class (remember, I said perhaps). The theme of self-reliance and making the right choices to determine your future is adamately stressed by Dumbledore, who at times pokes fun at Professor Trelawney and her predictions. IMO, it has been made quite obvious that Dumbledore wants Harry to develop self-confidence based on his merits and his choices. He does not want him to be distracted by references to a possibly dismal future as foreseen by Trelawney but learn to put faith in his own abilities. IMO,he is being taught to see the future as an indistinct shadowy thing-not something that is written in stone- that is forever being altered by the choices he makes. Learning to make the right choices is the key. bugaloo37-who still believes that Harry has a destiny to fulfill-but that it will be his decision to fulfill it. ____________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes > http://finance.yahoo.com From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Sep 4 16:51:07 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (bboy_mn) Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 16:51:07 -0000 Subject: COS Hallowe'en feast In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43599 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "grey_wolf_c" wrote: > David wrote: > > I have been re-reading COS to Ben (younger son) and am wondering > > about the first petrification (Mrs Norris) which takes place > > during the Hallowe'en feast. As I understand the working of the > > diary, Ginny would have to have been present to release and > > control the basilisk, and therefore not at the feast. Wouldn't > > her absence have been noted? > > > > David > Grey Wolf Replied: > I don't thik she would necesarily be missed. After all, in that > same Halloween party, the triad (HRH) went to the deathday party, > and people didn't miss them that much. Besides, Ginny didn't have > to be away for that long: it has been especulated that there must > be another way into the chamber, since not everyone has a tame > phoenix to get the out through Mirtle's bathroom. Ginny only had > to leave for like ten minutes, reach the Chamber, give specific > orders to the basilisk, and get back. > > Hope that helps, > > Grey Wolf bboy_mn added: Also, it was very late in the feast, when the TRIO found the cat it was a couple of minutes before the feast ended, so I'm sure quite a few students had finished eating by then and we not in the great hall. Most of the meals, in general, seem to last long enough that people are coming and going all the time. Now here is a more interesting question- When the feast ended, why did all the students go down that particular hall? The Slytherins for example go DOWN to the dungeons from the main entryway, as do, I think, Ravenclaw, and Hufflepuff. So why did they the all down at the hallway on the second floor, and they seemed to come from two directions? I noticed this when I firest read it, but it wasn't enough to distract me from the story. Any thoughts? bboy_mn From brian042 at hotmail.com Wed Sep 4 16:54:36 2002 From: brian042 at hotmail.com (bkb042) Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 16:54:36 -0000 Subject: Slytherins heir? Says who? In-Reply-To: <180.d1292c5.2aa71d2b@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43600 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., eloiseherisson at a... wrote: > snip: assuming his mother had also been at Hogwarts, there were likely to > be other students who knew her family, some of the staff were likely to have > known her. Perhaps the old head of Slytherin house quietly took him aside one > day and told him. > I think there are ways he could have found out. BIG assumtion. Faculty and student body both know a lot more about Harry's parents and family history than Harry does, and they tell him nit. Draco rubs his nose in this fact in PoA. Even Sirius, his Godfather, the best man at his parents' wedding tells him nothing. All we really know about Lily and James is he was good at Quidditch, and she didn't have to die. You'd think that the sire and dam of The Boy Who Lived would have had something written about them. Hermione, any luck finding it? We know qualitatively more about Longbottom's parents than Harry's. >> Brian:> > > One explaination would be the ability to speak parseltongue. > > Again, in the Chamber, Diary!Riddle describes himself and Harry > > as "probably the only two Parselmouths to attend Hogwarts since the > > great Slytherin himself". A thousand years since Slytherin left > > Hogwarts and then TWO parselmouths in the same century? Diary! > > Riddle's use of the word "probably" was prudent because there's no > > way for him to know for sure. After the incedent at the duelling > > club, Ron tells Harry that "it's not a very common gift". Either > > this is the understatement of the year, or the ability just isn't > > seen (or heard, for that matter) in England very often. If the gift > > was as rare as Diary!Riddle seems to think, why would Harry's use of > > it create the stir that it did? It would show up so seldom that no > > one would have memory of it, and nothing would be written about it > > other than through association with Slytherin, probably as a > > footnote in his official bio. > > Eloise: > I think you've put your finger on it. It is *extremely* rare (to say the > least), but it was one of the things Slytherin was *famous* for (COS, 147, UK > PB). Rather than being a footnote, I think that everyone except Harry > *immediately* made the connection. > I also think that there may well have been other Parselmouths in the interim, > who had the good sense to keep their ability hidden! Harry would have, I'm > sure, if he'd realised the implications. I think you misunderstood me slightly. Quantitativly, there is a significant difference between "not very common" and "*extremely* rare (to say the least)". Other than that, we seem to be on the same sheet of music here. > > Brian:> > > Working hypothesis: Riddle, as a first year, read the Slytherin > > bio and was intrigued by the legend of the Chamber of Secrets. He > > then began to study all that he could over the next few years about > > Slytherin himself, and his research eventually took him into the > > restricted section of the library. Being a favorite of almost the > > entire faculty (Dumbledore excepted), such access should not have > > posed much of a difficulty. It was in the restricted section, that > > he obtained the clues to give him the location of the entrance to > > the Chamber. At this point in my theory, I should point out that I > > do not believe he was a parselmouth. > > Eloise: > You mean that he is not yet a Parselmouth at this stage of the theory? > And yes, we know he did five years' research before finding the entrance. > > Brian: > He had found the tap with the > snake scratched on it and dedeuced the > > parseltongue "password". He then transfigured himself into a snake in order > > to open the tunnel. (I am not suggesting that he was an animagus; Animagi > > transform at will but wizards can transfigure themselves with spells as > > evidenced > > by Krum in the second trial of the Triwizard tournament.) > > This is how he gained access to the Chamber and it's contents. One > > of the items I think he discovered was a "Last Will and Testament" > > which was enchanted with some of the essence of Salazar Slytherin in > > much the same way that the diary was imbued with a little of Tom > > Riddle. It was after Tom's possession by this document that he > > literally became Slytherin's heir, AND aquired the ability to speak > > parseltongue because, in a sense, Slytherin HIMSELF now lives! > > Eloise: > That's an interesting theory and I think it works, although it depends on a > few things for which we have no canonical proof. But doesn't it also imply > that Slytherin must also live in Harry via the curse that failed? What things are those? Absence of evidence does not constitute evidence of absence. That's why canon is canon, and theory is theory! snip bkb042 Teeth still clenched, but one eye cautiously open > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From fyredriftwood at yahoo.com Wed Sep 4 17:34:34 2002 From: fyredriftwood at yahoo.com (fyredriftwood) Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 17:34:34 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle... how he knew his destiney (was: Riddle and Astronomy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43601 Heather (miss dumblydore) politely posted: "First, how on earth did Tom Riddle know he was the heir of Slytherin? His mother died right after he was born, his father left, and he was raised in a muggle orphanage, so presumably no one knew about this before Hogwarts. And obviously no one *at* Hogwarts knew, or else they would have known he was involved in the Chmamber opening. So where did he find out?" _________________ Fyre Wood (ME!) replies: There have been many rumors and wonderings as to how he found out about his past. http://www.angelfire.com/ca7/dracolovesharry/riddlemaster.html That link above is to my website where I go into the detail and possibility that perhaps he learned about his destiney from Lord Grindelwald, the former Dark Lord before Riddle turned evil. I won't post all the text because it's a LONG explaination. But the main points are that Grindelwald might have known about Riddle, and he influenced Riddle to go to the dark side, tempting him with power and informing him of the Chamber of Secrets. Check out the link because it explains things in more detail than I can at the moment. I don't have the time or patience to sit down and recopy the text if it's there on another page. --Fyre Wood, who is proud to be a webmaster of one of the most popular Draco/Harry Slash and HP Humor Shrines on the 'net. From gandharvika at hotmail.com Wed Sep 4 17:42:05 2002 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 17:42:05 +0000 Subject: [HP4Grownups]We Can Fly Dad's Car(FILK) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43602 ********************************************************************* Wednesday's karaoke night at the Leaky Cauldron with one sickle drink specials until 10 o'clock. Fun for the whole family! ********************************************************************* We Can Fly Dad's Car (A Filk by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Drive My Car_ by Paul McCartney and John Lennon) Harry: Tried to get on the train back to school But the gateway wouldn't let us go through Lost all hope and I started to fear But then Ron thought of a great idea Ron: Harry, we can fly Dad's car You know that Ford Anglia Harry, we can fly Dad's car And it will be cool Harry: Well, at first it was lots of fun But hunger and boredom finally won Then the engine started to whine Wished I was on that ol' rail line Ron: Harry, we can fly Dad's car Moves just like a shooting star Harry, we can fly Dad' car We'll make it to school Ford Anglia: Beep beep'm beep beep, yeah Ron: Harry, we can fly Dad's car Hogwarts can not be that far Harry, we can fly Dad's car But I'm worried, too Harry: The engine died and we lost all control Then we crashed in the Whomping Willow Snape he almost had us expelled Then Ron's Mom sent him the Howler from hell Mrs.. Weasley (Howler): WHO SAID YOU COULD TAKE THE CAR? MoM'S INVESTIGATING YOUR PA! YOU BOTH COULD HAVE DIED IN THAT CAR! I'M GOING TO KILL YOU! Ford Anglia: Beep beep'm beep beep, yeah Beep beep'm beep beep, yeah -Gail B...who came up with this song independently of Coriolan's Ford Anglia Filk...really I did. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From crussell at arkansas.net Wed Sep 4 18:43:59 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 18:43:59 -0000 Subject: Purpose vs. Destiny Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43603 I am writing this post to make an amendment to a previous post in which I stated that Harry had a destiny to fulfill. After further investigation into the definition of the word "destiny", I have decided to change my previous statement to read: Harry has a purpose to fulfill and his choices will determine whether or not this purpose will be fulfilled. IMO, the difference between the two words is this: To say someone is destined is to imply an inability to control his life- to say someone has a purpose is to imply a goal or an aim has been set forth. IMO, the word purpose is best used when describing Harry's future. To have a clearcut goal and to work towards that goal with all the abilities you can muster is not to say that the goal is certain. IMO, Harry, at this point in time is unaware of his purpose-however, I do believe he is begining to gain insight as he matures. The question can be asked- who will set forth the purpose for Harry's life? His parents-who he has little or no memory of? ( and who may have provided Harry with secret abilities yet to be discovered and utilized) Dumbledore-who seems to act as a guide through Harry's trials? IMO-Harry is a free agent-who seems to have certain special abilities which have proven to be effective against Voldemort. Where these abilities came from and how Harry will develop them and for what purpose (theres my word again) he will use them -will be left strictly up to him. bugaloo37-who hopes she has not completely confused anyone-including herself. From gr8lake5 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 4 19:46:24 2002 From: gr8lake5 at yahoo.com (gr8lake5) Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 19:46:24 -0000 Subject: Riddle and Astronomy In-Reply-To: <20020903214602.94136.qmail@web20419.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43604 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Heather Gauen < miss_dumblydore at y...> wrote: > Just a couple of questions- > As always, sorry if these've been brought up before ;) > > > > Off on a similar tangent, in SS, why are the only > teachers to put protections on the stone the teachers > that Harry has, *with the exception of Sinistra*? (I'm > not counting Binns here because he's a ghost.) > Wouldn't it have been a more effective obstacle course > if every teacher had done something, not just a select > few? > > Okay, thoughts here would be much appreciated! > > Heather, who had a dream last night that I was > captured by Lord Voldemort, then he suddenly turned > into my calculus teacher. Coincidence? I think not :) ME: While you make a good point that more obstacles make for better protection, there is a problem with doing that. If every teacher helped to protect the stone, then every teacher would know about it being at Hogworts, and if Dumbledore is trying to keep it's whereabouts unknown, then the fewer people that know where it is the better. And if you look at who he did trust enough to tell them, it makes sense that those were the teachers he chose. McGonagall , Snape, Sprout, and Flitwick: all are Heads of Houses. One would assume that in order to hold such a position, Dumbledore must trust you. Hagrid: Dumbledore says that he "would trust Hagrid with [his] life" (SS Paperback, 14). It's then logical to assume that Dumbledore would also trust Hagrid with the stone. Quirrell: As DADA teacher it would make sense that he helps to protect the Stone from Voldemort. That's what good DADA teachers are supposed to be able to do. So, essentially, Dumbledore used the fewest teachers he could and choose only the ones he know he could trust. Of course, we know now he shouldn't have trusted Quirrell, but maybe that's why he added the Mirror or Erised at the end-- to make Quirrell think Dumbledore trusted Quirrell and not get suspicious. ~Erie From gandharvika at hotmail.com Wed Sep 4 20:27:13 2002 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 20:27:13 +0000 Subject: [HP4Grownups]Unforgivable(FILK) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43605 WOO-HOO! Just got off Moderated Status today and it's time to celebrate! I feel like...singing! *ahem* ********************************************************* Unforgivable (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Unforgettable_ as performed by Nat King Cole) SCENE: DADA class room, Mad-Eye Moody teaching Harry and his classmates MOODY: Unforgivable That's what they are These three curses Of the Dark Arts Casting just one of these curses can Land you a life term in Azkaban Popular before The fall of Voldemort First Imperius: Total control Then Cruciatus: Torture your foe Finally there's Avada Kadavra Turn your target into a cadaver One survivor He's sitting in front of me *Musical Interlude* Unforgivable So now take heed Constant vigilance Is what you need That's why Dumbledore has asked of me To show these spells to all of thee You're up against The Unforgivable Three -Gail B. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From eloiseherisson at aol.com Wed Sep 4 20:31:09 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 16:31:09 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Slytherins heir? Says who? Message-ID: <68.2523de0e.2aa7c78d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43606 Brian: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., eloiseherisson at a... wrote: > > snip: assuming his mother had also been at Hogwarts, there were > likely to > > be other students who knew her family, some of the staff were > likely to have > > known her. Perhaps the old head of Slytherin house quietly took > him aside one > > day and told him. > > I think there are ways he could have found out. > > BIG assumtion. Faculty and student body both know a lot more about > Harry's parents and family history than Harry does, and they tell > him nit. Draco rubs his nose in this fact in PoA. Even Sirius, his > Godfather, the best man at his parents' wedding tells him nothing. > All we really know about Lily and James is he was good at Quidditch, > and she didn't have to die. You'd think that the sire and dam of The > Boy Who Lived would have had something written about them. Hermione, > any luck finding it? We know qualitatively more about Longbottom's > parents than Harry's. Eloise: I'm not sure which part of my post above you're objecting to, so I'll presume (dangerous as this is) that it's both parts. Let me get this straight. You are saying (going back to your original post): 1) That Riddle can't have found out about his ancestry from a genealogy section in the library, as Harry could therefore also find out about his parents from it and he doesn't seem to have done. 2) That Riddle wouldn't have been told anything about his ancestry by anyone at Hogwarts, as those in the know have told Harry very little about his parents/history. I suggested that Riddle's mother might have been at Hogwarts. Is this the BIG assumption? I didn't say that this was what happened, I said, *assuming*. I simply said there were conceivable ways that Riddle could find out about his parentage. Let's rephrase: It is not unreasonable to suggest that Riddle's mother, a witch and apparently descendent (?implied direct) of Salazar Slytherin, resident in England at the time of giving birth, also attended Hogwarts. Absence of evidence does not constitute evidence of absence, after all. Alternatively, perhaps poor Tom had the misfortune to have not only a Muggle for a father, but also a mother who wasn't even a good enough witch to get into Hogwarts. Or she might have been educated abroad, a not unreasonable assumption from her name, I grant you. *If* she attended Hogwarts (and even if she didn't), his parentage might well be known to the staff, at least. Or not. But it is a possibility that we cannot discount. Now Harry, as you suggest, knows next to nothing about his parents. He knows nothing primarily because, despite the desperate longing for them to which the Mirror of Erised attests, he rarely tries to find out anything, being content with whatever pieces of information fall into his lap. Dumbledore seems quite happy to tell him things up to a point, but Harry asks only a limited amount, as he does of Remus, Sirius and Hagrid. How much of this is to do with the exigences of JKR's plotline and how much to do with his unwillingness or inability to take on his parents' legacy, or with his parent's friends' desire to protect him from what he does not yet need to know, I can't say, but his intense *lack* of curiosity and the small amount of information which is volunteered by those in the know is remarkable. As it happens, I see no reason for there to be much written about Lily and James. They were very young when they died and whatever they did after Hogwarts seems to have been secret (certainly from us: I recall JKR stating that she couldn't say what they did as it would become important later). Harry is the one who is famous and as such, his parents may have been relegated to footnotes, or brief but glowing reports of their successes at Hogwarts. In any case, a genealogy section in itself might tell Harry little more than the names of his ancestors. Riddle, on the other hand, appears to have gathered all the information he can. He was popular with the staff, aside from Dumbledore. Isn't it likely that *had* his ancestry (note the italics) been known to staff members, particularly the Head of Slytherin, that he would have taken every opporunity to find out? Isn't it also likely that a Head of Slytherin House who knew that he had a descendent (the last remaining descendent according to canon) of Salazar Slytherin in his care would have taken some special interest in him? (Leaving aside the RL genealogical problems of how many descendents there must be) Now kindly note that I am *not* saying that this is what happened. It's an alternative theory. We have no canon for it. But it is at least as likely, IMHO, as your scenario. > > > >> Brian:> > > > One explaination would be the ability to speak > parseltongue. > > > Again, in the Chamber, Diary!Riddle describes himself and Harry > > > as "probably the only two Parselmouths to attend Hogwarts since > the > > > great Slytherin himself". A thousand years since Slytherin left > > > Hogwarts and then TWO parselmouths in the same century? Diary! > > > Riddle's use of the word "probably" was prudent because there's > no > > > way for him to know for sure. After the incedent at the > duelling > > > club, Ron tells Harry that "it's not a very common gift". Either > > > this is the understatement of the year, or the ability just > isn't > > > seen (or heard, for that matter) in England very often. If the > gift > > > was as rare as Diary!Riddle seems to think, why would Harry's > use of > > > it create the stir that it did? It would show up so seldom that > no > > > one would have memory of it, and nothing would be written about > it > > > other than through association with Slytherin, probably as a > > > footnote in his official bio. > > > > Eloise: > > I think you've put your finger on it. It is *extremely* rare (to > say the > > least), but it was one of the things Slytherin was *famous* for > (COS, 147, UK > > PB). Rather than being a footnote, I think that everyone except > Harry > > *immediately* made the connection. > > I also think that there may well have been other Parselmouths in > the interim, > > who had the good sense to keep their ability hidden! Harry would > have, I'm > > sure, if he'd realised the implications. > > I think you misunderstood me slightly. Eloise: Evidently. I do now. Brian: >Quantitativly, there is a >significant difference between "not very common" and "*extremely* >rare (to say the least)". Other than that, we seem to be on the same >sheet of music here. Eloise: I'm sorry, I exaggerated, remembering Dumbledore's words as 'extremely rare' rather than 'very rare', which I think is also quantitatively different from 'not very common' Unless you're English, of course. IMO, Ron's statement was indeed an ironic use of understatement. It would be in character. I wish I could *say* it, with the correct intonation. But what is your point? I'm missing it. I thought you were saying that Parseltongue was so rarely encountered that hardly anyone should have recognised/worried about it, whereas canon tells us that it was what Slytherin was famous for and the reason for the Slytherin symbol. > > > > Brian:> > > > Working hypothesis: Riddle, as a first year, read the > Slytherin > > > bio and was intrigued by the legend of the Chamber of Secrets. > He > > > then began to study all that he could over the next few years > about > > > Slytherin himself, and his research eventually took him into the > > > restricted section of the library. Being a favorite of almost > the > > > entire faculty (Dumbledore excepted), such access should not > have > > > posed much of a difficulty. It was in the restricted section, > that > > > he obtained the clues to give him the location of the entrance > to > > > the Chamber. At this point in my theory, I should point out that > I > > > do not believe he was a parselmouth. > > > > Eloise: > > You mean that he is not yet a Parselmouth at this stage of the > theory? > > And yes, we know he did five years' research before finding the > entrance. > > > > Brian: > > He had found the tap with the > snake scratched on it and dedeuced > the > > > parseltongue "password". He then transfigured himself into a > snake in order > > > to open the tunnel. (I am not suggesting that he was an > animagus; Animagi > > > transform at will but wizards can transfigure themselves with > spells as > > > evidenced > > > by Krum in the second trial of the Triwizard tournament.) > > > This is how he gained access to the Chamber and it's contents. > One > > > of the items I think he discovered was a "Last Will and > Testament" > > > which was enchanted with some of the essence of Salazar > Slytherin in > > > much the same way that the diary was imbued with a little of Tom > > > Riddle. It was after Tom's possession by this document that he > > > literally became Slytherin's heir, AND aquired the ability to > speak > > > parseltongue because, in a sense, Slytherin HIMSELF now lives! > > > > Eloise: > > That's an interesting theory and I think it works, although it > depends on a > > few things for which we have no canonical proof. But doesn't it > also imply > > that Slytherin must also live in Harry via the curse that failed? Brian:> > What things are those? > Eloise: 1) He had access to the Restricted Section to do his reasearch. 2) The information was in there which allowed him to find the entrance to the Chamber (information which Dumbledore seems to have missed). 3) He transfigured himself into a snake in order to gain access to the tunnel. 4) That there was a 'Last Will and Testament' imbued with essence of Slytherin. Brian: >Absence of evidence does not constitute evidence of absence. Eloise: Nor did I say it did. Did you miss the bit where I said I thought it was an interesting theory that worked? You may have it spot on, for all I know and working it backwards, from the theory that Riddle was Slytherin's heir because he actually contained a bit of Slytherin's essence, I can see how you might have got there. Brian: >That's why canon is canon, and theory is theory! Eloise: Indeed it is. I've been party to some pretty wild and whacky theories myself. But you didn't answer my question. If Riddle became the heir of Slytherin through being possesed by his Will, thus gaining his gift of Parseltongue, doesn't the same apply to Harry, connected to Voldemort by the curse which failed, having a little of Voldemort within him and gaining in turn his gift of Parseltongue? It wouldn't be the first time that it had been suggested that Harry is the heir of both Slytherin *and* Gryffindor. Brian: >Teeth still clenched, but one eye cautiously open I don't know why. You give at least as good as you get. And I thought I *was* being gentle, last time. I even put in little smiley emoticons. But never mind. Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From shufan90 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 4 18:16:51 2002 From: shufan90 at yahoo.com (Jennifer Kilroy-Tobin) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 11:16:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Potters hiding from Voldemort/Snape the Double Agent In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020904181651.2907.qmail@web21208.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43607 Here is my theory (not much but I am working on it) on the Potters in hiding. Yes, they were working for Dumbledore against LV, what I have not completely formulated yet. Possibly they were members of the Order of the Phoenix? I am a fan of the heir of Griffendor theory also. It was Snape that informed Dumbledore to warn the Potters, and in trying to keep a low profile gave many of their WW items to Dumbledore, this would explain his possession of the cloak and the Gringotts key. My question is if they were in hiding for a year, was Peter their secret keeper that entire time? If not for how long? How long did it take for him to give that information to LV? If Snape was a double agent did LV not announce his new information on the Potters? Why? Did he suspect Snape? If he did announce it did Snape not inform anyone because he knew that the targets were James and Harry? I say yes to this last statement because this conforms to my theory that Snape loves Lily and wanted James and Harry out of the way. When he looks at Harry he sees James whom he hates and Lily (in the eyes) and his guilt at not protecting her. Just my thought Jennifer- Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jodel at aol.com Wed Sep 4 18:43:14 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 14:43:14 EDT Subject: The Stone and the Mirror(was; Riddle and Astronomy) Message-ID: <7e.2d2ad046.2aa7ae42@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43608 Arcum askes; << The big question, naturally, is why Dumbledore wanted Harry to reach the stone, since obviously they could have put better defences around it. (An variant of the age circle, for example, keeping anyone under 600 out.) >> Yes, it certainly SEEMS clear that either someone intended that Harry and his friends reach the Stone, or the chain of coincidences which permitted it is just too long and too perfect to be believed. Which I think may be a flaw in the plotting of the first book. It plain doesn't make logistic sense on the part of the staff if the intention was to keep anyone from getting to the Stone. The more ways of getting at something the more likely it is that someone is going to succeed at it. The whole lead up of each task being uniquely suited to one of the (four) children just frankly makes me balk. (Who was the Troll task supposed to be set for? Or was that to be a treamwork exercise?) Because the Stone was safe -- as long as Harry and Co. stayed away from it! Dumbledore's conundrim had Quirrelmort completely stumped. Albus read Riddle's mindset loud and clear. Riddle would NEVER have been able to retrieve that Stone from the Mirror. And Quirrel was too tied up in knots to be able to manage it either. The set dressing of the other tasks was exactly that, set dressing. A series of solvable tasks which would slow progress enough to make interception (and capture -- there was no other way out of those chambers once one had entered them) more possible. But the Stone in the Mirror would have kept the invader there trying to figure it out until he gave up and made a run for it. Now, as to the flute, which is a complete side-issue, and not my main point; I cannot recall whether Hagrid had already been told that the kids had met Fluffy before Christmas. I seem to think that he had, and it throws off this mini-theory if he hadn't. But he thinks Fluffy is a fine pet. He can't see why the children might not want to make friends with his monster dog, and the flute was just a useful gift to enable them to do so. (Note; we've been told nothing of what became of Fluffy after the first book did he really exist or was he a hoax created from a transfigured something else and palmed off to Hagrid so he could play his part in the comedy?) As to whether Dumbledore intended to let Harry know how to retireve the Stone; Yes, actually. I believe that Dumbledore did exactly that. And very carefully, too. He knew from Hagrid that Harry knew that Nicholas Flammel had some part in the puzzle. He gave Harry his father's cloak at Christmas. The Mirror was set up in a room close to the Library over the Christmas break (I don't believe that it was there during the previous school term) and Dumbledore staked the place out until Harry showed up. He continued this watch until the first shock opf the discovery wore off and Harry started reaching the point where he was open to suggestions regarding the Mirror and what made it work. Then he planted his clues and left Harry to mull it over. Now, what I think might have reasonably been intended by all this was to set up a nice, safe little opportunity for Harry to have a nice safe chance at five minutes of glory after the threat was past, and it was time to take the Stone out of the Mirror to destroy it. Because while Dumbledore could hide the Stone in the Mirror, it is less than conclusive that he would have been able to get it out again by himself. After all, once the Stone was 90% safely out of the way of mischief-makers, I very much doubt that the dearest wish of Dumbledore's heart would have been to have it back out in the world again. What he saw in the Mirror is more likely to have been the vision of himself destroying it. And he knew this. To set up an adventure for a child to gain approval of his elders by retrieving a valuable object for them from its hiding place, has a much more certain chance of being able to extract it. And that's what I tend to think the whole Mirror of Erised was about. Dumbledore intended for Harry to be the one to retrieve the Stone from the Mirror -- after all the excitement was over. Unfortunately, Murphy got into the act. -JOdel From jodel at aol.com Wed Sep 4 18:43:12 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 14:43:12 EDT Subject: The Lake: Deep psychological waters? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43609 << theatresm2002 wrote: >So --assuming you buy into the idea -- why do only the Firsts need to >do it? Is it an initiation rite that can only be done once? I'm >guessing that once your unconscious mind has been opened to >this "Otherworld," you don't have to undergo the "trial by water" bit >again. >> Megan adds; <> There are practical reasons for separating out the First years. It delays their arrival until the Staff is ready for them. It would be just asking for trouble trying to pick the First years out of the madhouse of a whole thundering herd of returning students. This way they are neatly syphoned off at the station and taken on an "adventure" while the returning students are briskly conveyed in horseless cariages to the front door and turned loose to find their own way down to the Great Hall and get seated for the Feast. As to the form the Firsties' "adventure" takes. I would be very surprised indeed if a good deal of symboloism ISN'T also being invoked. Those boats not only cross the lake, they enter a tunnel and emerge in an underground cavern all of which are motifs which can carry heavy symbolic baggage. In fact, I wouldn't even be surprised to learn that the statement that the boats hold exactly FOUR passengers each is also in accordince with some traditional ritual. (Note; we are talking about 4 11-year olds, not 4 adults. Those boats are quite small.) Note: I see that Jeff brought up the same practical considerations later in the same Digest. -JOdel From sally.lasko at colorado.edu Wed Sep 4 19:05:45 2002 From: sally.lasko at colorado.edu (swimsalone) Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 19:05:45 -0000 Subject: why the potters had to die In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43610 Hi all. I'm new to the list, so if someone has posted this opinion, please excuse the re-post. I have been reading some of the threads related to why Voldemort killed the Potters, and why he specifically wanted to kill Harry as a baby and have formulated my own humble opinion: The theme of fortune telling or predicting the future resurfaces in almost all the books, either with distain or with an emphasis on how malleable the future is and how difficult it is to predict. My theory is that Voldemort either read in the stars (Mars is bright tonight) or some other means of divination that James' son would be his downfall, and therefore had to kill Harry and James. Lilly didn't have to die if James was killed, but Harry was the threat to his powers. I think we will continue to see a recurrence of the theme that the future is shaped by our actions rather than set in stone, which will lead up to Voldemorts critical misreading of the future and his ultimate demise. Just a theory. "swimsalone" From rvotaw at i-55.com Wed Sep 4 21:35:26 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 16:35:26 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and the Phoenix/ McGonagall References: Message-ID: <00a001c2545a$fc9c80a0$69a2cdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 43611 Grey Wolf writes: > I don't believe in the heir theory myself, and you've just touched one > of the words that make my favourite theory run: "undercover". According > to my (exteneded) version of MAGIC DISHWASHER, the Potters were working > in a secret project for Dumbledore, as part of the ongoing plans of > Dumbledore to beat Voldemort. > prevent James form discovering something, he decied to destroy him and > the notes of the experiment (including Harry). Of course, what LV > didn't understand was that Lily had made discoveries as well, and that > one of the spells she finds would protect Harry form thew AK. Okay, this has aided me in the development of yet another new train of thought. New to me, I mean, I'm sure someone's thought of it before. Now, we know that Dumbledore is supposed to have been partners with Nicholas Flamel. We also know (or at least according to Hagrid) that the Potters were close to Dumbledore. Dumbledore doesn't seem the type to get "close" to many people. So let's continue along this line, suppose the Potters were indeed working with Dumbledore on a secret project. Could this perhaps be related to the Sorcerer's/Philospher's Stone or Elixir of Life? I refuse to believe for a second that JKR will not return to the stone or Elixir. Everything else significant seems to reoccur at some point, and I believe one or the other will. We also know that it is possible to store up Elixir, according to Dumbledore, so it may be around too. Anyway, back to my original train of thought. Suppose the Potters were working on an experiment with the Elixir of Life? Even making new formulas using the Elixir to see what can be accomplished. And perhaps "experiementing" on Harry in the process. Nothing to harm him, and it just might help. What if (come on, let your imagination run wild) Harry was bottle fed Elixir or something adapted from it? Something that no one really knew whether it would indeed make a "super wizard" or have no effect at all. Now, let's go back for some actual facts. Quirrell could not touch Harry because Voldemort was residing in his body. He was, though, trying to get to his wand to kill him that way. It is implied that something could have been done that way, even though he couldn't physically touch Harry. Next, let's take a look at Harry's scar. If the "ancient magic" that Lily used to protect Harry made him impossible to touch by Voldemort *at all* why was there a scar left? I think it's possible that there are two forces at work here. One was the protection left on Harry by his mother's sacrifice. Voldemort could not *physically* touch him. Second, the result of some experiment, possibly involving the elixir or an adapted elixir, which kept him alive when he was cursed by Voldemort. A scar was left, true. Voldemort can hurt Harry now, as evidenced by administering the Cruciatus curse not once, but twice. However, can Harry *really* die? Maybe, just maybe, he can't. But no one knows that, not even Dumbledore. Dumbledore may suspect it, because he knew about the experimentation, but he doesn't *know.* If not that he can't die at all, perhaps a sort of "nine lives." Or three or four or something. Sure, none of this can be proven. But, so far at least, I don't think any of it can be disproven either. Richelle From miss_dumblydore at yahoo.com Wed Sep 4 21:55:48 2002 From: miss_dumblydore at yahoo.com (Heather Gauen) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 14:55:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Slytherins heir? Says who? In-Reply-To: <180.d1292c5.2aa71d2b@aol.com> Message-ID: <20020904215548.4263.qmail@web20418.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43612 > Eloise: > Ah...but assuming his mother had also been at > Hogwarts, there were likely to > be other students who knew her family, some of the > staff were likely to have > known her. Perhaps the old head of Slytherin house > quietly took him aside one > day and told him. > I think there are ways he could have found out. Now me- It makes sense that Riddle's mother could have been at Hogwarts and therefore the staff knew her. However, does that nessecarily mean that her heritage is common knowledge? I suppose it's possible, but that in itself creates a larger problem. How could Tom have gotten away with what he did if anyone *knew* he was Slytherin's heir? The atmosphere at the time of the first Chamber opening was obviously nervous and frightened, judging by the fact that someone died and they talked about closing the school. In a situation like that, wouldn't *anyone* have come forward and told? Hagrid may have made a suspicious candidate with all his freakish pets, but he certainly isn't more suspicious than someone who is *known* to be the heir! Heather :) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com From rvotaw at i-55.com Wed Sep 4 22:24:00 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 17:24:00 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and the stone/ Tom Riddle . . . / The Stone References: Message-ID: <003f01c25461$cfc8cf00$7da3cdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 43613 Arcum writes: > The big question, naturally, is why Dumbledore wanted Harry to reach > the stone, since obviously they could have put better defences around > it. (An variant of the age circle, for example, keeping anyone under > 600 out.) Very true. Perhaps there is something connecting Harry and that stone. Something Dumbledore knew or suspected. For futher ponderings, see my previous post (Re: Harry and the Phoenix/McGonagall). Fyre Wood writes: > I won't post all the text because it's a LONG explaination. But the > main points are that Grindelwald might have known about Riddle, and > he influenced Riddle to go to the dark side, tempting him with power > and informing him of the Chamber of Secrets. Hmm, that I like. Grindelwald's name was convenientaly dropped in an inconspicuous place, now that it's there it can easily be brought up later and the readers will say "Oh, yeah, the guy Dumbledore defeated." Jodel writes: > part of the staff if the intention was to keep anyone from getting to the > Stone. The more ways of getting at something the more likely it is that > someone is going to succeed at it. The whole lead up of each task being > uniquely suited to one of the (four) children just frankly makes me balk. Well, perhaps the tasks weren't suited for the children. Perhaps the children were suited for the tasks. Who knows what that sorting hat really knows. Could be part of why Hermione ended up in Gryffindor, not Ravenclaw. Harry was a foregone conclusion, of course, and he was tutored a bit by Dumbledore himself so he'd know how to work the mirror. Or how the mirror worked. Richelle From Malady579 at hotmail.com Wed Sep 4 22:44:58 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (malady579) Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 22:44:58 -0000 Subject: Fluffy (was: The Stone and the Mirror) In-Reply-To: <7e.2d2ad046.2aa7ae42@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43614 JOdel wrote: >> nothing of what became of Fluffy after the first book did he really exist or was he a hoax created from a transfigured something else and palmed off to Hagrid so he could play his part in the comedy?) << Me: I read this in the Blue Peter JKR interview: >>Child. What happened to Fluffy? JKR. I love an ... I love attentive readers, erm, you tend to find at Hogwarts that, erm, anything that's dangerous ends up in the forest ... so that's where Fluffy was released, so he's roaming round in the forest ..<<< transcript on this site So, Fluffy was released into the forbidden forest after his guarding duties were finished. Maybe he'll pop up again later. How big is this forest anyway? It sure has a lot of magical creatures stuffed in there. Melody From corgi at SFF.net Wed Sep 4 22:56:29 2002 From: corgi at SFF.net (sffcorgi) Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 22:56:29 -0000 Subject: Fluffy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43615 --- Melody wrote: > So, Fluffy was released into the forbidden forest after his guarding > duties were finished. Maybe he'll pop up again later. But... but... POOR FLUFFY! Poor widdle puppy, turned out in the nasty cold Scottish forest with no music! Corgi http://www.SFF.net/people/Corgi/JasonCarter - cast Jason as Sirius! From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Sep 4 23:06:56 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (bboy_mn) Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 23:06:56 -0000 Subject: Harry and the Phoenix/ McGonagall In-Reply-To: <00a001c2545a$fc9c80a0$69a2cdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43616 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > Grey Wolf writes: > > > I don't believe in the heir theory myself, and you've just > > touched one of the words that make my favourite theory run: > > "undercover". According to my (exteneded) version of MAGIC > > DISHWASHER, the Potters were working in a secret project for > > Dumbledore, as part of the ongoing plans of Dumbledore to beat > > Voldemort. > > > prevent James form discovering something, he decied to destroy > > him and the notes of the experiment (including Harry). Of course, > > what LV didn't understand was that Lily had made discoveries as > > well, and that one of the spells she finds would protect Harry > > form thew AK. Richelle Added: > > Okay, this has aided me in the development of yet another new > train of thought. New to me, I mean, I'm sure someone's thought > of it before. Now, we know that Dumbledore is supposed to have > been partners with Nicholas Flamel. We also know (or at least > according to Hagrid) that the Potters were close to Dumbledore. > Dumbledore doesn't seem the type to get "close" to many people. > So let's continue along this line, suppose the Potters were > indeed working with Dumbledore on a secret project. Could this > perhaps be related to the Sorcerer's/Philospher's Stone or Elixir > of Life? I refuse to believe for a second that JKR will not > return to the stone or Elixir. Everything else significant seems > to reoccur at some point, and I believe one or the other will. > We also know that it is possible to store up Elixir, according > to Dumbledore, so it may be around too. > > Anyway, back to my original train of thought. Suppose the Potters > were working on an experiment with the Elixir of Life? Even making > new formulas using the Elixir to see what can be accomplished. And > perhaps "experiementing" on Harry in the process. Nothing to harm > him, and it just might help. What if (come on, let your imagination > run wild) Harry was bottle fed Elixir or something adapted from it? > Something that no one really knew whether it would indeed make a > "super wizard" or have no effect at all. > > ... EDITED .... > > Sure, none of this can be proven. But, so far at least, I don't > think any of it can be disproven either. > > Richelle bboy_mn adds: Interesting thought you had; which makes me wonder, what if the 'secret formula' based on the Elixer of Life, was NOT to give people imortality, but to give people like soldiers in battle short temporary invulnerability? In a sense, it would be the first reliable 'Block' or counter charm against the AK curse. This would be very benificial to the side that had it, and obviously, very detrimental to the side that didn't. This could account for a lot of things, and it could allow Harry one more 'resurrection' when he finally defeats Voldemort. This could tie in nicely with my theory that Harry WILL die but he will not be killed. That is he will suffer some form of technical death, death by some acceptable definition, which leaves Voldemort vulnerable and allows Big_V to be finally killed once an for all, but at the same time allows the technically dead Harry to be reawakened. The Harry must die in order for Voldemort to die, is a side effect of the fateful failed Death Curse. Harry surviving that original death curse was the result of the Secret Death Curse Invulnerability Experiments. At Godric's Hollow, James delayed Big_V long enough for Lily to work the counter charms and administer the potions, then she delayed Voldie by beggging for her life, in order to give the anti-DE charm long enough to take effect. Oooouuuuu.... new thought, maybe the secret formula is a combination of Dragon's Blood, Pheonix Tears, and a tiny amount of the Elixer of Life, or some synthetic variation of the Elixer of Life. Hey, it could happen! bboy_mn PS: admittedly there are still a few loose ends. From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Wed Sep 4 23:31:18 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb P) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 16:31:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Potters hiding from Voldemort/Snape the Double Agent In-Reply-To: <20020904181651.2907.qmail@web21208.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20020904233118.27834.qmail@web13001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43617 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Jennifer Kilroy-Tobin wrote: > Here is my theory (not much but I am working on it) on the Potters > in hiding. > It was Snape that informed Dumbledore to warn the Potters, and in > trying to keep a low profile gave many of their WW items to > Dumbledore, this would explain his possession of the cloak and the > Gringotts key. While it could have been Snape who gave these items to Dumbledore, it could easily have been Sirius, or they could have given the items to Dumbledore directly. There are probably different reasons for the different items winding up with Dumbledore. The key, for instance, would have needed to be with someone who could move about freely in the wizarding world, as Death Eaters may have had an eye on the bank to watch for the Potters trying to access their money. The Inivisibility Cloak, OTOH, would have been a useful item to people in hiding, so one has to wonder why it wasn't with the Potters, unless Dumbledore retrieved it from the ruins of the Godric's Hollow house. And even then, the house was supposed to be in pretty sad shape after the attack and it might have been rather difficult to get, or might have been damaged. HOWEVER--for some reason, I get the impression in PoA, when Snape uses the cloak to enter the Shrieking Shack unnoticed, that he is accustomed to using it. Not only that, he immediately knows it is Harry's. Who told him it was Harry's? He obviously suspected Harry had it after the incident in Hogsmeade where Malfoy sees his head for a moment. (He also clearly knew who Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs were, as he suggests that Harry received the map from the original manufacturers.) I believe that Snape knew an Invisibility Cloak was a Potter family treasure. Perhaps the reason for its being in Dumbledore's posession was that he had asked James to lend it to Snape to help him in his spying. (Dumbledore wouldn't have needed it, as he has said he doesn't need a cloak to be invisible.) After the deaths of the Potters, Snape would have returned the cloak to Dumbledore, and it would have escaped being destroyed when Voldemort killed Harry's parents. As for Snape being the one to inform Dumbledore of the danger the Potters were in, Snape may have looked upon this as a way to finally pay back his debt to James for saving his life--a debt, mind you, to a person he really did NOT like, so it must have been eating at him. Then, when he failed, he lost his chance to pay that debt and Harry was in for a double-whammy of hatred from the Potions Master: for being the son of the man he hated, and for reminding him of his failure. (Everyone raise their hands who thinks Snape takes failure really well! ::sound of crickets:: My point exactly.) > If Snape was a double agent did LV not announce his new > information on the Potters? Why? Did he suspect Snape? In the Pensieve chapter of GoF, Dumbledore says (in the Pensieve, when Karkaroff accuses Snape of being a Death Eater) that Snape came back to their side before Voldemort's fall. And later, when Voldemort himself says that one of the missing Death Eaters is one who has left him forever and will die, I suspect he is speaking of Snape, so he must have known that Snape was working as a spy and may have made certain that Snape was not privy to the information that Peter was the Secret Keeper and that he spilled the beans to his master. (After all, in the Shrieking Shack, Snape still seems to think that Sirius is responsible for the Potters' deaths.) I hope we eventually discover how Snape's cover was blown, if this is what happened. > If he did announce it did Snape not inform anyone because he knew > that the targets were James and Harry? I say yes to this last > statement because this conforms to my theory that Snape loves Lily > and wanted James and Harry out of the way. When he looks at Harry > he sees James whom he hates and Lily (in the eyes) and his guilt > at not protecting her. While I like the Snape-loved-Lily theory of why he first hated James, I sincerely doubt that even Snape would think the way to a woman's heart would be to collude in the murder of her husband and son. I think it was more likely a blunder that caused Snape's cover to be blown, meaning that he was out-of-the-loop when the information came down that the Potters' Secret Keeper had not kept the secret. (This would be why, thirteen years later, he still thought Sirius was the Secret Keeper.) I don't think Dumbledore would still trust him if he had deliberately kept quiet to get James and Harry out of the way. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Sep 4 23:48:51 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (bboy_mn) Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 23:48:51 -0000 Subject: The Lake: Deep psychological waters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43618 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "theatresm2002" wrote: Amy "theatresm2002": > I've been wondering why only the First Years have to cross the lake > to get to Hogwarts at the beginning of the term, and eventually > remembered something that mythologist Joseph Campbell said, referring > to a mythic character being pulled from the water: > > ....EDITED.... > > So --assuming you buy into the idea -- why do only the Firsts need to > do it? Is it an initiation rite that can only be done once? I'm > guessing that once your unconscious mind has been opened to > this "Otherworld," you don't have to undergo the "trial by water" bit > again. > > Any thoughts? Sound reasonable, or has Amy been drinking too much > espresso again? > > Amy "theatresm2002" bboy_mn addeds: I think the answer could be a simple as looking at real English Boarding/Private Schools. They all seem to be very long on tradition, and seem to have gone through a significant effort to invent traditions that make their school stand out from the rest. Someone else commented on the unusual uniform that Dudley wore as a Smelting's student and wondered if that was an exageration. Another person who had direct experienece with English schools pointed out that by some standards, the Smelting's uniforms were relatively tame. Odd clothes, bright colors, strange rituals, all seem to help define a school, and give the school and the students a unique identity. So, to ask, 'why the lake?' regarding Hogwards, is like asking 'why the stick?' regarding Smeltings. The answer is no more or less than tradition. Schools invent rituals and traditions that make their schools unique and in their eyes, special. There is a lot of potential symbolism to crossing the lake; journey to a new world, the crossing of the threshold into a new era of your life, a symbolic birth, etc... But I think in the end, it is simple something invented by the school for the sole purpose of creating a tradition. Although, I will agree that it does serve the practical purpose of sorting out the first years, and allowing the rest of the school to assemble before the Sorting Ceremony. The Sorting Ceremony itself is nothing more than an unnecessary traditional ritual. The first years could just as well be segregated, sorted in private the next day, and sent to their respective houses, thereby saving everyone a lot of time and effort. But it wouldn't be as much fun, or as symbolic, and wouldn't be as welcoming. As I'm sure Joseph Campbell would agree, to a cold detached observer these things would seem to be a waste of time, however, to someone who looks deeper, symbols, rituals, and traditions have a very powerful effect on our lives. I doubt that many kids will ever forget their first trip across the lake and the Sorting Ceremony. These are powerful images and experiences that will stay with them for a lifetime. Just some thoughts. bboy_mn From iwant12 at hotmail.com Wed Sep 4 22:47:49 2002 From: iwant12 at hotmail.com (fruhu) Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 22:47:49 -0000 Subject: What silvery thing? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43619 In GoF chapter "The madness of Mr.Crouch", after Dumbledore arrived to the stunned Krum, he "raised his wand into the air and pointed it in the direction of Hagrid's cabin. Harry saw something silvery dart out of it and streak away through the trees like a ghostly bird". What was it? Did the silvery thing dart out of Hagrid's cabin or Dumbledore's wand, or what? Cheers, Fru Hu / Freya From hp_fan16 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 4 23:30:25 2002 From: hp_fan16 at yahoo.com (hp_fan16) Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 23:30:25 -0000 Subject: DADA's never-lasting teachers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43620 yes yes it's been talked about but i had to talk. I've always been very curious about the DADA job. Some of the book's most memorable characters have held that position. But it seems that there must be some *good* reason no one can keep the job. All of the poor (I don't mean money wise) teachers left the job because Harry stumbled upon their secret incompetence (Quirrel and Lockhart) and they *had* to leave the job. And of course the better teacher's (Lupin and Crouch!Moody) had secrets as well that caused them to vacate their potions. The common denominator? Secrets! I have no clue what that's supposed to mean, or even if it means anything, but it's interesting, (to me at least.) So I'm thinking, is this all part of Dumbledor's great plan? Is it just a coincidence? Or a curse, or some spell to prevent Harry from learning too much? (unlikely as any may be) I just wonder about it. An other thing I wonder about, pertain to DADA that is, is how come Dumbledore, who defeated the dark wizard Grindelwald, never taught DADA. He taught transfiguration, why? He knew so much about the dark arts. Again Snape is a character who follows this suit. He knows all about DADA but teaches potions! Perhaps, there really is no better potions teacher, but we also have yet to see a better DADA teacher (with potential to last) So can't he be the DADA teacher, and leave it some mediocre potions master to handle the class. Especially, with the Dark Lord back, you'd think they'd want the "best man" for the job. (true Real!Moony will be teaching next year but.. still) It seems to me as if, Hogwarts simply doesn't want students educated of the Dark Arts. It certainly appears to have been the way, even since Dumbledore taught Transfiguration. But, Why? Is there some deeper reason, or am I just asking way to many questions? Gabrielle~ who must continuously refrain from arguing against herself~ From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Thu Sep 5 00:51:06 2002 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 00:51:06 -0000 Subject: DADA's never-lasting teachers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43621 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "hp_fan16" wrote: > An other thing I wonder about, pertain to DADA that is, is how come > Dumbledore, who defeated the dark wizard Grindelwald, never taught > DADA. He taught transfiguration, why? He knew so much about the dark > arts. Perhaps because he was better at transfiguration. Or it could be that you simply cannot fake transfiguration. You can go a fair way in DADA with just book learning, but not transfiguration. > Again Snape is a character who follows this suit. He knows all about > DADA but teaches potions! Perhaps, there really is no better potions > teacher, but we also have yet to see a better DADA teacher (with > potential to last) So can't he be the DADA teacher, and leave it some > mediocre potions master to handle the class. (1) I am convinced that Snape *loves* potions and would fight the appointment to DADA. (2) If you get the potions wrong, it would likely prove very deadly. Simply no room for incompentance here. (3) The teacher must not only know the potions, but know what went wrong if and when it does, and the proper antidotes for both the true potion and its mistakes. Marcus Marcus From the.gremlin at verizon.net Wed Sep 4 23:56:09 2002 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (ats_fhc3) Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 23:56:09 -0000 Subject: The Stone and the Mirror(was; Riddle and Astronomy) In-Reply-To: <7e.2d2ad046.2aa7ae42@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43622 jodel > Yes, it certainly SEEMS clear that either someone intended that Harry and his > friends reach the Stone, or the chain of coincidences which permitted it is > just too long and too perfect to be believed. Which I think may be a flaw in > the plotting of the first book. It plain doesn't make logistic sense on the > part of the staff if the intention was to keep anyone from getting to the > Stone. The more ways of getting at something the more likely it is that > someone is going to succeed at it. The whole lead up of each task being > uniquely suited to one of the (four) children just frankly makes me balk. I don't think that the tasks were all suited for each of the children- (Actually, I think someone speculated that Dumbledore thought Neville would be with the trio and could figure out the herbology one) but then again, you've got three heads working together there, and three wizards in training can probably accomplish more than one full-grown wizard. I do worry about the safety of the stone in the first place, if three untrained wizards (or 2 wizards and a witch, if you prefer) were able to get to it. Then again, I think Harry is pretty much the only person who knows how to work the mirror correctly, and because he had the other two, they put their heads together and figured out the rest of the tasks. > (Who was the Troll task supposed to be set for? Or was that to be a treamwork > exercise?) Since Harry and Co. had (somewhat) defeated a troll once before, they probably would be able to do it again especially since all three were in a position to do something, and one wasn't hiding (I think, I can only think of the evil movie at the moment). > Because the Stone was safe -- as long as Harry and Co. stayed away from it! > Dumbledore's conundrim had Quirrelmort completely stumped. Albus read > Riddle's mindset loud and clear. Riddle would NEVER have been able to > retrieve that Stone from the Mirror. I'm assuming that Riddle is Voldie, right? And Quirrel was too tied up in knots to > be able to manage it either. The set dressing of the other tasks was exactly > that, set dressing. A series of solvable tasks which would slow progress > enough to make interception (and capture -- there was no other way out of > those chambers once one had entered them) more possible. But the Stone in the > Mirror would have kept the invader there trying to figure it out until he > gave up and made a run for it. Actually, Quirrelmort knew how to get past the tasks, seeing as how he was one of the teachers to put a guard on it. The talks probably slowed the trio down more than they slowed Quirrelmort down. > Now, as to the flute, which is a complete side-issue, and not my main point; And I think is a coinkidink. (coincidence) > I cannot recall whether Hagrid had already been told that the kids had met > Fluffy before Christmas. I seem to think that he had, and it throws off this > mini-theory if he hadn't. But he thinks Fluffy is a fine pet. He can't see > why the children might not want to make friends with his monster dog, and the > flute was just a useful gift to enable them to do so. I agree. But, sadly, I can only remember the movie, and I NEED my books! But I could have sworn that Hagrid knew that Harry and Co. knew about Fluffy. > As to whether Dumbledore intended to let Harry know how to retireve the > Stone; Yes, actually. I believe that Dumbledore did exactly that. And very > carefully, too. He knew from Hagrid that Harry knew that Nicholas Flammel had > some part in the puzzle. He gave Harry his father's cloak at Christmas. The > Mirror was set up in a room close to the Library over the Christmas break (I > don't believe that it was there during the previous school term) and > Dumbledore staked the place out until Harry showed up. He continued this > watch until the first shock opf the discovery wore off and Harry started > reaching the point where he was open to suggestions regarding the Mirror and > what made it work. Then he planted his clues and left Harry to mull it over. Actually, Harry was trying to escape from...someone (I can't remember who because I don't have my books and my mind has been poisioned by the film-that-must-not-be-named), and he took some wrong turns and wound up in that empty classroom. Now, unless Dumbledore IS omnipotent, there is no way for him to calculate Harry's going into the restricted section in the middle of the night, then taking the exact amount of wrong turning that would take him to the mirror. Harry's a smart kid, he knew what the mirror did, so he figured it out himself, based on what Dumbledore told him about the mirror. > Now, what I think might have reasonably been intended by all this was to set > up a nice, safe little opportunity for Harry to have a nice safe chance at > five minutes of glory after the threat was past, and it was time to take the > Stone out of the Mirror to destroy it. Because while Dumbledore could hide > the Stone in the Mirror, it is less than conclusive that he would have been > able to get it out again by himself. After all, once the Stone was 90% safely > out of the way of mischief-makers, I very much doubt that the dearest wish of > Dumbledore's heart would have been to have it back out in the world again. > What he saw in the Mirror is more likely to have been the vision of himself > destroying it. And he knew this. To set up an adventure for a child to gain > approval of his elders by retrieving a valuable object for them from its > hiding place, has a much more certain chance of being able to extract it. And > that's what I tend to think the whole Mirror of Erised was about. Dumbledore > intended for Harry to be the one to retrieve the Stone from the Mirror -- > after all the excitement was over. > > Unfortunately, Murphy got into the act. Murphy? You mean Quirrelmort? I don't think Dumbledore intended for Harry to get the Stone at all. However, I don't think he was surprised to find that Harry had it all figured out. He knew that Harry was smart enough to figure it out. I do remember this bit of canon, however, when Dumbledore rushes back from London and rhetorically asks Hermione and Ron if Harry had gone through. However, toward that point, he may have realized that Harry knew enough to go figure out the tasks and get to the mirror. However, maybe he didn't know that Harry would make it through all the tasks okay. Perhaps he just thought that Harry knew enough about the Stone to want to go and find it. -Acire, who is on the verge of buying 2nd copies of the books because she misses them horribly and can't wait to go and retrieve them in October. This is, by far, the longest post I have ever done, and probably the only one that didn't mention Snape. Oh. Never mind. There he is. From Jeckers01 at aol.com Thu Sep 5 00:40:01 2002 From: Jeckers01 at aol.com (jeckswolf) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 00:40:01 -0000 Subject: Snakes (was: Dumbledore) In-Reply-To: <8o6ob7+bqpu@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43623 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Merriman Vicki" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at e..., "Brian Dorband" > wrote: > > > and every one since has been EVIL! Or, perhaps THAT snake WAS > > Nagini, > > and he went off to rendezvous with V, perhaps alert him that Harry > > Potter was a parseltongue. If that's the case, then Nagini, as > > No, i don't think it was the same snake. The boa was too cheerful, > if a snake can be considered cheerful. He winked at Harry, and he > was resignedly rolling his eyes about the Dursley glass tapping. > He/she just seemed like too nice a snake. He seemed excited about > the possibility of seeing Brazil. > > Oh, just thought of this. Nagini is milked, implying she is venomous > and that that's what keeps V alive until he gets his body, but the > boa is a constrictor, and its teeth wouldn't work like that; So they > can't be the same. > > vicki I agree, Nagini cannot possibly be a boa. Her venomous fangs are a giveaway. Now for the basilisk, it is in no way related to the aforementioned Nagini. A Basilisk is, and I quote from Fantastic Beasts and Where to find them, created from "a chicken egg hatched beneath a toad", therefore not related to any other snakes. Another thought, the basilisk Harry faced was most probably a male. The males have extremely venomous fangs, and a scarlet plume on the top of their head. From Jeckers01 at aol.com Thu Sep 5 00:35:17 2002 From: Jeckers01 at aol.com (jeckswolf) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 00:35:17 -0000 Subject: McGonagall's Age & Dumbledore's Triumphant Look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43624 In an interview with Ms. Jk Rowling, she states that Professor McGonagall is approximately 70, and Dumbledore is 100 years older than she is. She also states that wizards live much longer than ordinary muggles, and Harry has yet to find this out. Interesting.... Going with the Triumphant Dumbledore thread, I believe this has something to do with Harry and Voldemort sharing the same powers/blood/wand cores and such. Dumbledore says that Harry and Lord Voldemort are connected in a unique way..and this will most likely be important down the road. Possibly the fact that Harry's blood is in Voldemort, and how Pettigrew is in debt to Harry, leads to the Dark Lord's downfall in the end. Jeckswolf From kaityf at jorsm.com Thu Sep 5 00:03:15 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 19:03:15 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Purpose vs. Destiny In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020904184407.03f79930@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> No: HPFGUIDX 43625 At 9/4/02 06:43 PM, bugaloo37 wrote: >I am writing this post to make an amendment to a previous post in >which I stated that Harry had a destiny to fulfill. After further >investigation into the definition of the word "destiny", Ooooo, someone else who wants more precise definitions of terms! I agree with you that the word change makes quite a difference. I've had a problem with the destiny theories. I'm not sure I like the purpose theory completely, but I DO like the idea that with this theory, Harry quite clearly has a choice, which is a lot less clear if one see his future as destiny. > To have a clearcut goal and to work >towards that goal with all the abilities you can muster is not to say >that the goal is certain. IMO, Harry, at this point in time is >unaware of his purpose-however, I do believe he is begining to gain >insight as he matures. I agree with this and have mentioned something similar before. Right now he acts almost out of instinct, that is, he is basically a good kid who doesn't have to struggle over decisions. He just seems to do the right thing without thinking about it. I think that as he matures, he will grow to understand more about why he does the things he does and will have a harder time making decisions, both because he'll be thinking more about them and because the decisions will be harder ones to make. I also wonder if there is something about Harry that makes him the one person who has the best chance of succeeding in the battle against Voldemort. And maybe that something is related to what it was that allowed Harry to survive the Avra Kadavra spell. >The question can be asked- who will set forth >the purpose for Harry's life? His parents-who he has little or no >memory of? ( and who may have provided Harry with secret abilities >yet to be discovered and utilized) Dumbledore-who seems to act as a >guide through Harry's trials? This is why I didn't completely like the "purpose" theory. >IMO-Harry is a free agent-who seems to >have certain special abilities which have proven to be effective >against Voldemort. Where these abilities came from and how Harry >will develop them and for what purpose (theres my word again) he will >use them -will be left strictly up to him. Again I agree. It could be, though, that Dumbledore understands what that special quality is that Harry has as well as why it is so significant, and that understanding is what motivates him to set up those lessons and tasks for Harry so that Harry will be equipped to take on Voldemort is that is his choice. After all, if Harry isn't prepared, there's not much choice, is there? He'd be toast. If this is true, then we don't have to worry about purpose any more than we'd have to worry about destiny. Harry's ability would be something that is simply a part of him, a part that could be put to good use, but it doesn't give him purpose, necessarily, nor does it dictate his destiny. It does, however, give him a serious choice to make. Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From oppen at cnsinternet.com Thu Sep 5 02:11:13 2002 From: oppen at cnsinternet.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 21:11:13 -0500 Subject: Harry Potter, Kwizatch Haderach? Message-ID: <015401c25481$88adc880$8887aa41@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 43626 I was re-reading Frank Herbert's novel _Dune_ some time ago, and it occured to me that there are some parallels between the experiences of the young Paul Atreides and Harry Potter. While it's not emphasized in _Dune,_ due to the abrupt change of circumstances that sends Paul and his mother Jessica fleeing into the desert to hide with the Fremen tribesmen, Paul is being trained, among other things, to be what the Duniverse calls a "mentat;" basically, a human computer. His father tells him this in the early part of the book, and says something to the effect that "at about this point, the future mentat must decide whether or not to continue with the training; it can no longer be done _to_ him without his knowledge." Unhesitatingly, Paul decides to continue with the training, now knowing why his trainers do what they do. I could make a case that something of this sort is being done with Harry, and that a lot of the events that have happened are orchestrated by Dumbledore, particularly in PS/SS, to shape Harry into the sort of wizard that may be what is necessary to put a final end to Voldemort. The succession of traps in PS/SS look more like tests than actual attempts to stop somebody; and it's made clear that Quirdemort didn't have much trouble with them (although we don't know _how_ he got past the Giant Chess Set or the potions---is this ever cleared up?) At some point in the series, Harry will be called in to Dumbledore's office and have it explained to him that what he's been going through (beyond his normal wizardly education) is special to make him the wizard that'll defeat the Dark Lord. Harry will then be given the choice about whether he wants to go on with the training, or abandon it and merely go through the rest of his education like any other young wizard. I also think that if this is the case, I know what choice he'll make. From drumforever at earthlink.net Thu Sep 5 02:31:32 2002 From: drumforever at earthlink.net (Betty Landers) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 22:31:32 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] DADA's never-lasting teachers References: Message-ID: <007a01c25484$5b5c0a10$9a5285ce@bettysue> No: HPFGUIDX 43627 great big snip: Gabrielle: > (true Real!Moony will be teaching next year but.. still) Urm, excuse me? Where did you hear that the *real* Alastor Moody would be teaching Dada next year? Betty From fyredriftwood at yahoo.com Thu Sep 5 02:31:46 2002 From: fyredriftwood at yahoo.com (fyredriftwood) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 02:31:46 -0000 Subject: {FILK} If You See Draco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43628 Before I post my filk, I just wanted to join in the celebration with my buddy Gail and say that I'm FINALLY off moderated status as well. And now... a song filk for your pleasure. ************************************** "If You See Draco" by Fyre Wood To the tune of "If You See Jordan" by Something Coporate *************************************** The Scene: Harry and Ron are hanging out in the Gryffindor Common room and suddenly Harry finds the need to sing his little heart out. I have a story A bitter anthem for everyone to hear about This kid who just don't like me And that's a solid fact They say he's hunting me And as you see I'm all swelled up with fear Cuz I can't get him off my back If you see Draco If you see Draco He makes me sick He makes me sick First year's over First year's over And you still won't quit You tried to fight me down at the Quidditch Pitch And man, I think that's great You nearly cried and said to yell at you like you do with all the mudbloods Then you ran back to the dungeons real quick Did you make it in time to recapitulate? There's one too many of you in this world If you see Draco If you see Draco He makes me sick He makes me sick First year's over First year's over And you still won't quit You say it's customary But it's jealousy that led me to this song Won't sing it often Just at least until you're gone You'll stop at nothing to make my life hell And everything up to that's pretend You tried to brainwash all my friends If you see Draco If you see Draco He makes me sick He makes me sick First year's over First year's over And you still won't quit I don't care if you dye your hair You'll always be a little blonde haired witch! --Fyre Wood, who thought the original lyrics were just perfect in their own right =) From hp_fan16 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 5 01:42:16 2002 From: hp_fan16 at yahoo.com (hp_fan16) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 01:42:16 -0000 Subject: DADA's never-lasting teachers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43629 In reply to my "why didn't Dumbledore teach DADA Marcus says: > Perhaps because he was better at transfiguration. Or it could be > that you simply cannot fake transfiguration. You can go a fair way > in DADA with just book learning, but not transfiguration. And after my questioning Snape's position he also responds: > > (1) I am convinced that Snape *loves* potions and would fight the > appointment to DADA. > (2) If you get the potions wrong, it would likely prove very deadly. > Simply no room for incompentance here. > (3) The teacher must not only know the potions, but know what went > wrong if and when it does, and the proper antidotes for both the true > potion and its mistakes. > > Marcus > I think Perhaps my point was lost. What I was really concerned about was the importance of DADA at Hogwarts. Potions and Transfiguration are no doubt difficult forms of magic, but DADA is as well. I would think that they could find some teacher that's more competent at Potions or Transfiguration, then a few of the DADA teachers we've seen. Is DADA not as important to the WW? It seems we often find wizards (cough cough FUDGE!) who would rather look the other way, than put up a defense. Is this something learned by experience at Hogwarts? Gabrielle~ Just making my actual point clearer~ From chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com Thu Sep 5 02:52:59 2002 From: chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com (alora67) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 02:52:59 -0000 Subject: Book 5 rumours Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43630 *is tentative* are we allowed to discuss book 5 rumours over here? I'm not sure....I suppose that a moderator can Crucio me if I am in the wrong. Has anyone else seen the possible plot over at off topic chatter? I won't go into now, but I just wondered if it anyone had seen it and what their take on it was. Do you think it's possible that Neville is under the Imperius curse? I have to admit, it threw me for a loop and was not something I had considered that JK Rowling would do.... I'd love to hear anyone else's thought. Alora, who waits to hear, "Crucio!" From yrawen at ontheqt.org Thu Sep 5 03:05:02 2002 From: yrawen at ontheqt.org (yr awen) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 23:05:02 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DADA's never-lasting teachers References: Message-ID: <005701c25489$07ce2b80$badef718@kzo.chartermi.net> No: HPFGUIDX 43631 Gabrielle said: I think Perhaps my point was lost. What I was really concerned about was the importance of DADA at Hogwarts. Potions and Transfiguration are no doubt difficult forms of magic, but DADA is as well. I would think that they could find some teacher that's more competent at Potions or Transfiguration, then a few of the DADA teachers we've seen. Is DADA not as important to the WW? It seems we often find wizards (cough cough FUDGE!) who would rather look the other way, than put up a defense. Is this something learned by experience at Hogwarts?<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Gabrielle's hit on something that's sort of subconsciously bugged me about the DADA position. Up until Quirdemort (tee hee), there's some reason for the WW to be somewhat lax towards DADA; it's assumed, although obviously wrongly, that the Great Enemy has been destroyed and therefore there's no particular worry or need to stress the DADA element of the curriculum. Partly, this is inference because we don't know who Quirrell's predecessor in the DADA professorship is (or if we do, I can't remember who he/she was. Help?) Dumbledore, who is aware (dur) of Quirdemort, would have -- or should have -- taken steps to secure a much better DADA professor than Quirrell's eventual successor, but winds up Gilderoy Lockhart. The thing that makes me nervous is that DADA will become a hugely important aspect of wizarding life as a rule for the course of the next three books, and it seems that the school is slowly (stress the slowly) moving in the direction of employing a competent teacher for the kids who are growing up in the shadow of Voldemort's threat. Still, in terms of the foundation the students have received thus far... Gilderoy Lockhart, who is blazingly incompetent? Remus Lupin, who is competent but impaired by his lycanthropy? Alastor Moody, who is competent but impaired by his paranoia, and the fact that he's been captured by Barty Crouch? I would imagine that *Dumbledore* considers DADA to be an important part of the curriculum -- if he didn't, he wouldn't have gone through all that effort to get Lupin on staff. I think he's sensing the potential for Voldemort's return and is taking steps to prepare the students, but finds himself running up against the recalcitrance of the school board. This brings me to a question for the British contingent of the list: is the Board of Governors a fixture in public schools(that is, I guess, fee-paying boarding schools)? If so, do they exclusively control the hiring of new faculty, or do they take the Headmaster's suggestion and then vote on it? Or does the Headmaster/mistress exercise that power and deal with the board's furor later on? I just realized I've been ending all my paragraphs with questions. Gah. The presence of Gilderoy and the poor light in which JKR portrays the Hogwarts' governing board suggests that the board, at least at Hogwarts, is responsible for hiring, and the past hiring decisions with respect to the DADA professorship reflect their cavalier attitude toward the necessity for it. Dumbledore might have had to pull Impressive Important Wizard rank and get Lupin on staff, and do the same with Moody, who is generally thought of as being one card short of a full deck in the sanity department. I honestly can't see him tolerating Quirrell's obviously useless presence on the staff unless it was required of him by the people who allow him to be Headmaster in the first place. Ultimately, though, my concern rests with the students in Harry's class, who have basically spent two of their four years listening to Quirrell stutter and Gilderoy ruthlessly aggrandize himself. With Lupin and pseudo-Moody, things appear to be looking up and by the time the mystery DADA femme-professor comes in, things will start getting really serious. In a good, academic sort of way, of course :-) HF. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com Thu Sep 5 03:06:55 2002 From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 20:06:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What Silvery Thing? Message-ID: <20020905030655.9986.qmail@web40306.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43632 From: "fruhu" Subject: What silvery thing? In GoF chapter "The madness of Mr.Crouch", after Dumbledore arrived to the stunned Krum, he "raised his wand into the air and pointed it in the direction of Hagrid's cabin. Harry saw something silvery dart out of it and streak away through the trees like a ghostly bird". What was it? Did the silvery thing dart out of Hagrid's cabin or Dumbledore's wand, or what? Cheers, Fru Hu / Freya --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lilac says: Ooooh! I know this one! I asked this question not far back, and the answer I got was that the silvery thing came out of Dumbledore's wand. It flew, like a silvery bird, to Hagrid's hut, and Hagrid came running toward them after that. Steve/HP Lexicon gave it the name "Messenger Spell", but it doesn't officially have a name from JKR. I thought that it was something coming out of Hagrid's hut, and that Harry could see movements of invisibility cloaks and that it was Moody!Crouch Jr. under the cloak (because Moody does have one in his trunk). The sentence wording is a little confusing, so you were not alone thinking it came out of Hagrid's hut. Here's the link to the Lexicon's definition: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/spells_m.html#Messenger and here's the link to the filk I wrote about this spell, because I was so happy to finally understand what JKR was trying to say. http://home.att.net/~coriolan/newfilks.htm#Magic_Messaging_Spell Cheers right back at you! Lilac ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* "Tut, tut --- hardly any of you remembered that my favorite color is *lilac*. I say so in Year with the Yeti." --Gilderoy Lockhart, COS --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From nplyon at yahoo.com Thu Sep 5 04:07:07 2002 From: nplyon at yahoo.com (nplyon) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 04:07:07 -0000 Subject: {FILK} Castle on a Lake Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43633 Okay, this is my first attempt at a FILK. Hopefully I'll improve over time!!! Anyway, this is dedicated to Lilac, who encouraged me to try my hand at FILK writing. Castle on a Lake (To the tune of "Castle on a Cloud" from Les Mis?rables) There is a castle on a lake Maps are no use there, no indeed It is unplottable you see That massive castle on the lake There one can learn about magic Learn all about how to cast spells There are lots of classes to take Up in the castle on the lake Headmaster's name is Dumbledore Deputy is McGonagall Then there's old Binns whose class is a bore And Snape who intends to settle a score Come to this place of such wonders Come walk its old and hallowed halls Hogwart's Express you'll want to take To reach the castle on the lake ~Nicole, who now needs to get some sleep. :) From nplyon at yahoo.com Thu Sep 5 05:11:32 2002 From: nplyon at yahoo.com (nplyon) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 05:11:32 -0000 Subject: {FILK} That Old Snape's Office Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43634 I'm on a roll!! This one is dedicated to Gail. Congrats on making it off moderated status and thanks for inspiring me to write my own FILKs! That Old Snape's Office (To the tune of "The Old Apartment" by Barenaked Ladies) Broke into that old Snape's office This is where he keeps his stuff Those two boys, Ron and Harry Will distract Snape while I search This is where he keeps his stuff It's Boomslang skin we need To brew our Polyjuice I wonder where Snape put it This place is not very spruce This is where he keeps his stuff All his potions ingred'ents All his nasty, slimy junk These things belong to him I think even that nasty funk Broke into that old Snape's office During an explo-si-on Vials and bottles, phials and beakers And all sorts of other junk This is where he keeps his stuff Why does he have this crap? Why does he never clean? I think I'd better hurry Or he'll see me flee the scene This is where he keeps his stuff How is all the commotion? How is all the confusion? I hope Snape won't see me And the Boomslang that I've taken Now we can go and brew Polyjuice And become a bunch of Slytherins And find out if Draco is the Heir I sure hope so! This is where he keeps his stuff Broke into that old Snape's office Grabbed the Boomslang and I ran Precious Boomslang, needed Boomslang For our Polyjuice potion I want that skin This is where he keeps his stuff I want that skin This is where he keeps his stuff I want that skin ~Nicole, who *really* needs to go get some sleep now! From eloiseherisson at aol.com Thu Sep 5 05:52:40 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 01:52:40 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Slytherins heir? Says who? Message-ID: <155.13950421.2aa84b28@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43635 Heather: > > Eloise: > > Ah...but assuming his mother had also been at > > Hogwarts, there were likely to > > be other students who knew her family, some of the > > staff were likely to have > > known her. Perhaps the old head of Slytherin house > > quietly took him aside one > > day and told him. > > I think there are ways he could have found out. > > Now me- > It makes sense that Riddle's mother could have been at > Hogwarts and therefore the staff knew her. However, > does that nessecarily mean that her heritage is common > knowledge? I suppose it's possible, but that in itself > creates a larger problem. How could Tom have gotten > away with what he did if anyone *knew* he was > Slytherin's heir? The atmosphere at the time of the > first Chamber opening was obviously nervous and > frightened, judging by the fact that someone died and > they talked about closing the school. In a situation > like that, wouldn't *anyone* have come forward and > told? Hagrid may have made a suspicious candidate with > all his freakish pets, but he certainly isn't more > suspicious than someone who is *known* to be the heir! Very good point! You may have got me there! :-) First, I think we may be into the 'heir'/ descendent thing again. Because he was a descendent didn't mean he was the *Heir*, particularly, as I suggested later in that post, as the legend itself doesn't seem to suggest that there is only one living descendent, but only one *true* heir. Secondly, Prof Binns is insistent that it *is* a legend. Was he around at the time? I have three possible explanations relating to his insistence: 1) He's a historian and he simply doesn't believe in all that stuff. This may have been the climate of the time. Do we know that the staff *really* thought that it was the *Monster of Slytherin* attacking students? Were they really *looking* for the Heir of Slytherin, or just trying to find whatever dangerous creature was stalking the corridors? 2) His insistence is a blind, in order to protect the students from undesirable knowledge. The legend was believed at the time and Hagrid was thought to be the Heir. But if so, then how on earth did Dumbledore persuade Dippet to let Hagrid stay, or the MOM not to imprison him? 3) Prof Binns is Ever-So-Evil and colluding with Riddle. Now come on, I had to say that, didn't I? In fact I think we could make out a case here. Just when I thought there were no more hedgehogs to be found! ;-) But leaving aside point (3), No, I don't think the staff would immediately have pointed the finger at popular, model student Riddle. IMHO, Dumbledore was not only the only person on the staff to realise that Riddle was Slytherin's Heir, he was the only one who realised that the legend was true. Eloise (who is still only *suggesting*, not stating, that Riddle's mother went to Hogwarts and thinks she missed out a word yesterday, speaking of *her* name, rather then her *father's* name.) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kaityf at jorsm.com Thu Sep 5 01:28:32 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 20:28:32 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and the Phoenix/ McGonagall In-Reply-To: References: <00a001c2545a$fc9c80a0$69a2cdd1@istu757> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020904201337.03f1aec0@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> No: HPFGUIDX 43636 At 9/4/02 11:06 PM, bboy_mn wrote: >Interesting thought you had; which makes me wonder, what if the >'secret formula' based on the Elixer of Life, was NOT to give people >imortality, but to give people like soldiers in battle short temporary >invulnerability? In a sense, it would be the first reliable 'Block' or >counter charm against the AK curse. This would be very benificial to >the side that had it, and obviously, very detrimental to the side that >didn't. On first thought, I like this theory. (I don't have a second thought, yet.) It may have some lose ends, but it still makes some sense. Wouldn't that be a great tool in the battle against Voldemort? Heck, maybe even Snape, being the potions *master* was even doing something to help the effort to create this formula. Maybe whatever it was Snape was doing to help the effort is what makes Dumbledore so sure of Snape's loyalty. (Letting my imagination run wild.) >This could account for a lot of things, and it could allow Harry one >more 'resurrection' when he finally defeats Voldemort. This could tie >in nicely with my theory that Harry WILL die but he will not be >killed. That is he will suffer some form of technical death, death by >some acceptable definition, which leaves Voldemort vulnerable and >allows Big_V to be finally killed once an for all, but at the same >time allows the technically dead Harry to be reawakened. I'm not sure I buy into the Harry-will-die theory, in any guise, but I do like the idea that Voldemort might *think* he is killing Harry, with Harry being protected -- again. Personally, I'd love to see that. Pride often leads to a fall, and if Voldemort was so sure he had defeated Harry, it would be nothing short of delightful for me to watch Voldemort fail -- again. >The Harry must die in order for Voldemort to die, is a side effect of >the fateful failed Death Curse. Harry surviving that original death >curse was the result of the Secret Death Curse Invulnerability >Experiments. I could buy this as long as I don't have to think of Lilly and James experimenting on their own child. Now if Lilly administers a potion to Harry because at the moment Voldemort is busy in the living room busy killing James and she doesn't have a lot of options left, then I can buy it. What other option would there be? Just leave it all alone, knowing that Voldemort will come up and kill them, or at least Harry? I like the idea, too, that Lilly begged for her life as a distraction to give the potion time to work. Some may say that Voldemort wouldn't bother listening to 3 seconds of begging because he's cold-hearted and totally disinterested in such things. However, some people, like Voldemort, are cruel and heartless enough to enjoy listening or watching someone beg. It gives them an extra thrill they wouldn't get if they just went blasting straight away. >Oooouuuuu.... new thought, maybe the secret formula is a combination >of Dragon's Blood, Pheonix Tears, and a tiny amount of the Elixer of >Life, or some synthetic variation of the Elixer of Life. As long as we're concocting a potion, how about a little unicorn blood? Don't have to kill the unicorns to get their blood after all. Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From smellee17 at hotmail.com Thu Sep 5 03:33:34 2002 From: smellee17 at hotmail.com (smellee17) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 03:33:34 -0000 Subject: Clue to the CoS? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43637 I have been following the discussions about how Voldemort found out he was the Heir of Slytherin. I read a post mentioning Voldemort probably found the bathroom tap with the snake etched into the metal, and I had a thought. If Voldemort found the tap, that meant Salazar Slytherin must have made the mark when the school was founded about thousand years ago. I hadn't noticed that detail before, but now it is bothering me. They couldn't have had running water, pipes, and toilets back then, could they? I think Voldemort had made the snake as a clue to those who would come after him. Voldemort says he knew he couldn't reopen the chamber without suspicion, so I assumed he was leaving clues. Any thoughts? signed smellee From alohamoira at yahoo.com Thu Sep 5 05:50:07 2002 From: alohamoira at yahoo.com (Jacqueline Hendries) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 22:50:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FILK: Greasy!Snape (?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020905055007.33174.qmail@web13001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43638 my songfilk to Frankie Valli's "Grease" - from the movie of the same name. :) I've been working on a full-length movie parody but it's fallen by the wayside since classes started... anyway, just thought I'd volunteer this. :) Snape: I saw the mirror and I seen the light I got some greasy hair I?ve got to wash it, right? Yes there?s a danger it will drip on the floor If I don?t wring it out, I?d slip and fall for sure Snape?s backup singers: Grease is the word Snape: They say my hair is just the grossest thing It?s like an oil slick, But makes me, wanna sing No I don?t care if students think I?m a slob, I think that children suck, I want a different job Snape?s backup singers: Grease is the word Snape: Grease is my hair, is my face, is my voice It?s the way that I?m feeling Now is the time to make Potter drink poison Because from my stores he?s been stealing That Potter boy and all his Gryffindor friends No matter what I do They beat me out in the end Oh there?s a chance that I will get him someday But Albus favours him There?s nothing I can say Snape?s backup singers: Back to your hair Greasy, his hair, yeah it?s slimy, disgusting Snape: It?s none of your business Snape?s backup singers: Greasy your hair, and your temperament?s nasty And yelling at us, hey, what is this? Snape: This is my hair, nothing like it I won?t ever spike it (spike it!) Even if you dislike it? And what are you doing here? I saw the mirror and I seen the light I got some greasy hair But you could be more polite Your lips aren?t lying, but this hair is mine It?s like a trademark thing I call it ?super-fine? Yes that?s the word Snape?s backup singers: Grease is the word, yes the word that you?ve heard We?re not kind, but we?re candid Yes greasy you are, oh you are, yes you are (Snape glares, Backup singers edge away, scared) but I think that it?s time we?ve disbanded (lengthy musical interlude in which Snape plays with his hair, putting it up in pigtails, etc, only to get frustrated that nothing seems to be working.) Snape: Grease is my hair, is my face, is my voice It?s the way that I?m feeling Yes greasy?s my life, are my traits, are my potions Oh, greasy makes me unappealing Snape?s backup singers: Grease is the word Is the word Is the word Is the word ~*~ Aloha --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eloiseherisson at aol.com Thu Sep 5 07:29:02 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 03:29:02 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DADA's never-lasting teachers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43639 Gabrielle: > I think Perhaps my point was lost. What I was really concerned about > was the importance of DADA at Hogwarts. Potions and Transfiguration > are no doubt difficult forms of magic, but DADA is as well. I would > think that they could find some teacher that's more competent at > Potions or Transfiguration, then a few of the DADA teachers we've > seen. Is DADA not as important to the WW? It seems we often find > wizards (cough cough FUDGE!) who would rather look the other way, > than put up a defense. Is this something learned by experience at > Hogwarts? > To be fair, Dumbledore appointed someone pretty competent last time, only he was prevented from taking up his position! Hagrid explains that people aren't *willing* to take on the job, as they think it's jinxed, so Dumbledore has a limited choice. We have no evidence that Quirrell wasn't competent before his trip abroad. In fact, given the way he deals with trolls and his ability to get through the enchantments guarding the Stone, he's very competent. I'm not getting into the vexed question of whether or not he taught at Hogwarts before he met Voldemort, but even if he didn't, his reputation was not, presumably of the trembling man he pretends to be (Voldemort implies he was either already teaching, or appointed, before he found him). Lupin, as you point out was also competent and Lockhart only revealed himself to be a charlatan *through* his taking up of a teaching position. One of the problems is that with so few (apparently) schools of Wizardry, there isn't a pool of competent *teachers* with previous teaching experience and references on which to draw. And as far as all the teachers are concerned, Dumbledore seems to have a pretty laissez-faire attitude. He's not concerned by Binns boring his class to sleep or by Snape's bullying tactics. He seems to regard Trelawney as a bit of a charlatan, but lets her get on with it. Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pen at pensnest.co.uk Thu Sep 5 07:29:33 2002 From: pen at pensnest.co.uk (Pen Robinson) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 08:29:33 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Slytherins heir? Says who? In-Reply-To: <155.13950421.2aa84b28@aol.com> Message-ID: <393A81B2-C0A1-11D6-9876-0030654DED6A@pensnest.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 43640 On Thursday, September 5, 2002, at 06:52 , eloiseherisson at aol.com wrote: > > > But leaving aside point (3), No, I don't think the staff would > immediately > have pointed the finger at popular, model student Riddle. IMHO, > Dumbledore > was not only the only person on the staff to realise that Riddle was > Slytherin's Heir, he was the only one who realised that the legend was > true. > Do we know that Voldemort really *is* the Heir of Slytherin? We know he thinks he is the HoS, and has proclaimed himself such. We know he reckons that only the Heir etc would be able to open the Chamber. But what if that ain't so? He could be assuming himself to the the HoS in order to make himself feel better, wot wiv having no family, an' all. Or, what if the way a person becomes the Heir of Slytherin is by opening the Chamber of Secrets? That would make sense too. He wouldn't be the heir of anything until he'd done so... and therefore, lines of descent would be irrelevant. Riddle's mother could have been a Hufflepuff! Pen From eloiseherisson at aol.com Thu Sep 5 08:12:15 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 04:12:15 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Slytherins heir? Says who? Message-ID: <6c.21d74aaf.2aa86bdf@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43641 Pen: > Do we know that Voldemort really *is* the Heir of Slytherin? We know he > thinks he is the HoS, and has proclaimed himself such. We know he > reckons that only the Heir etc would be able to open the Chamber. But > what if that ain't so? He could be assuming himself to the the HoS in > order to make himself feel better, wot wiv having no family, an' all. Poor little Tom! Yes, I know just what you mean. A bit of over-compensation, perhaps, a bit of projection. No, we don't know, do we? Voldemort says he is, but he could be lying. Dumbledore says he's the last descendent of Slytherin, but he could be mistaken, or being economical with the truth for some mysterious reason. The legend says that the Chamber would only be opened by Slytherin's true heir, but, hey, that's only a legend. Does Tom say it? But Riddle was the only person recorded to have opened the Chamber since the days of Slytherin himself. Bit of a coincindence, No? > > Or, what if the way a person becomes the Heir of Slytherin is by opening > the Chamber of Secrets? That would make sense too. He wouldn't be the > heir of anything until he'd done so... and therefore, lines of descent > would be irrelevant. Riddle's mother could have been a Hufflepuff! > > Could be. But then, he's right in saying that he's the Heir of Slytherin, isn't he, because he's done it? No over-compensation needed. Doesn't this get a bit circular? He would have to have been the heir (in in other words he had whatever it took to open the Chamber, be it destiny or unique ability) in order to open the Chamber, by which action his heirship is apparent. But yes, he might be making assumptions about his mother's ancestry. (Remember that I am drawing a distinction between descendency and heirship.) Anyway, she *could* have been a Hufflepuff, even if Salazar Slytherin's blood did run through her veins, couldn't she? What about choices? Perhaps she was a very good and nice witch who would be horrified to see how her boy had turned out. Eloise Also idling and taking advantage that her children haven't yet emerged and demanded the computer! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eloiseherisson at aol.com Thu Sep 5 08:33:05 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 04:33:05 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Clue to the CoS? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43642 Smellee: I have been following the discussions about how Voldemort found out > > he was the Heir of Slytherin. I read a post mentioning Voldemort > probably found the bathroom tap with the snake etched into the metal, > and I had a thought. If Voldemort found the tap, that meant Salazar > Slytherin must have made the mark when the school was founded about > thousand years ago. I hadn't noticed that detail before, but now it > is bothering me. They couldn't have had running water, pipes, and > toilets back then, could they? I think Voldemort had made the snake > as a clue to those who would come after him. Voldemort says he knew > he couldn't reopen the chamber without suspicion, so I assumed he > was leaving clues. Any thoughts? I did refer to this in passing in my reply to Brian's post, which I think is the one to which you are referring. It all depends on how relevant you think it is to apply what we know of the history of Muggle technology to the WW. No, we didn't have that kind of plumbing a millennium ago. As I also pointed out once, we didn't have castles a millennium ago, either and when we did....well, lets just say they didn't have plumbing. We can think of the whole thing as an anachronism, or assume that wizard technology is or was in some respects far in advance of our own, or that the plumbing was installed more recently, which would mean that Slytherin couldn't have physically scratched the snake on himself (although I suppose he could have left some kind of enchantment that meant whatever modifications were made to the castle, there would still be an identifiable means of access to the Chamber). You and I have both now suggested in slightly different ways, that Riddle/Voldemort could have been responsible for the snake on the tap. I suggested that it might indeed have been Riddle who thought of utilising the plumbing system as an extension alowing the Basilisk, which as far as I know had been confined to the Chamber proper ever since Slytherin's day, access to the castle. Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Thu Sep 5 09:38:44 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (grey_wolf_c) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 09:38:44 -0000 Subject: Potters hiding from Voldemort/Snape the Double Agent In-Reply-To: <20020904181651.2907.qmail@web21208.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43643 Jennifer Kilroy-Tobin wrote: > My question is if they were in hiding for a year, was Peter their > secret keeper that entire time? If not for how long? How long did > it take for him to give that information to LV? > > Just my thought > Jennifer- There were in hiding for a year, but they weren't using a secret keeper at that time. They had been hiding, and decided that still the risk was too greeat, and that they needed to use the Fidelius Carm (secret keeper spell). When deciding who would be the secret keeper, several options were proposed (Sirius and Dumbledore that we know, but it's possible that there were others). Sirius proposed Peter, thinking that Lupin was (or could be) the spy, and the Potters accepted for whatever reasons (IMO because no-one would expect it, but it is just IMO). Sirius tells Harry that "Peter went running to LV", so the Fidelius must have lasted a few hours, a couple of days at the most before Peter spilled the beans and L decided to take matters into his own hands. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Thu Sep 5 09:57:18 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (grey_wolf_c) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 09:57:18 -0000 Subject: Clue to the CoS? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43644 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "smellee17" wrote: > I have been following the discussions about how Voldemort found out > he was the Heir of Slytherin. I read a post mentioning Voldemort > probably found the bathroom tap with the snake etched into the metal, > and I had a thought. If Voldemort found the tap, that meant Salazar > Slytherin must have made the mark when the school was founded about > thousand years ago. I hadn't noticed that detail before, but now it > is bothering me. They couldn't have had running water, pipes, and > toilets back then, could they? I think Voldemort had made the snake > as a clue to those who would come after him. Voldemort says he knew > he couldn't reopen the chamber without suspicion, so I assumed he > was leaving clues. Any thoughts? > signed smellee I have to point out that they could perfectly have pipes, running water and even hot water at that time. That technology was invented, as far as I know, by the Romans, and kept alive by the Arab culture during the middle ages. Romans had plumbing in their rich houses, and awas used to carry hot water to the floors and ceilings, to heat the house in winter, just like modern radiators do. Not only that, the Arabs kept and improved the design, and by the time they conquered the Iberian Peninsula (year 711), they were already masters in the construction of water works: fountains, piping, irrigation, etc. For anyone that does not believe me, I recomend a visit to Al-hambra or to Cordoba, in Spain, to see first hand the constructions the Arab created while they stayed there. So, when the castle first was constructed/magically created (I think it was magically created, and has been imporven over the years), they could have included the piping into the structure (just as Salazar included the hidden chamber). Just because the howling barbarians that destroyed the Roman Empire didn't know about plumbing, it doesn't mean that the four wizards couldn't have traveled to more enlighted places to learn about that sort of thing. After all, Romans were already constructing aqueducts long before Hogwarts existed, and when you can create something that big, you can definetely build a big castle, especially if thigs like gravity, structural weight and suport are things one can bend to your own purpose. If at that time, some basic toilets were included, it is logical to imagine that there could have been taps. The castle's magic would simply remodel it to adapt it to modern versions of the same ideas, keeping things like colours and images. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From pat_mahony at hotmail.com Thu Sep 5 11:56:35 2002 From: pat_mahony at hotmail.com (the_air_vents_of_abduction) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 11:56:35 -0000 Subject: Magic of Hogwarts (was Clue to the COS?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43645 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "smellee17" wrote: > I have been following the discussions about how Voldemort found out > he was the Heir of Slytherin. I read a post mentioning Voldemort > probably found the bathroom tap with the snake etched into the metal, > and I had a thought. If Voldemort found the tap, that meant Salazar > Slytherin must have made the mark when the school was founded about > thousand years ago. I hadn't noticed that detail before, but now it > is bothering me. They couldn't have had running water, pipes, and > toilets back then, could they? I think Voldemort had made the snake > as a clue to those who would come after him. Voldemort says he knew > he couldn't reopen the chamber without suspicion, so I assumed he > was leaving clues. Any thoughts? > signed smellee My personal opinion is that Hogwarts possesses a magic of its own, that cannot be controlled by any wizard. Hogwarts was created by the Hogwarts four, and I believe they imbued the castle with a magic that continued to exist independently of the minds that created them. We know from things like Riddle's Diary that objects can possess a "mind" of their own. Here's a list of other aspects that suggest Hogwarts possesses its own magic: *large concentration of ghosts *the stairways that move, and go different places, etc *the talking portraits, gargoyles, etc, and the fact that passwords are used. *Dumbledore's comment in GoF where he says that he would never claim to know all of Hogwarts' secrets. *The fact that Hogwarts was considered such a safe haven during the Reign of Terror *the chamberpot room And there may be the others. The point I'm trying to make is that Hogwarts possesses a mind and magic of its own; meaning that it would have the ability to adapt itself to chanigng times. One of the most striking aspects of Hogwarts is that it seems to possess little obvious order or symmetry; contrast this to Gringotts, which, like Hogwarts, is considered to be the safest place in the WW. The bank is the picture of order- goblins being as meticuloous as they are. A stark contrast to the almost random nature of Hogwarts. It is quite plausible, IMO, that the whole plumbing/snake issue could be the actions of Hogwarts itself (or at least the part that Slytherin contributed), simply adjusting itself to fit the contemporary culture and society. Once again, I have rambled. Oh well. . . Roo From kaityf at jorsm.com Thu Sep 5 13:16:50 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 08:16:50 -0500 Subject: Spiders Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020905074953.044cdb30@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> No: HPFGUIDX 43646 As I was rereading book 1, I began thinking about the role of spiders in the HP saga. The first time they come up, it is in the scene in Harry's cupboard when he is getting dressed and pulls a spider off his sock. At this point we learn that Harry is used to spiders (unlike Ron). When Uncle Vernon visits Harry in the cupboard a little later, some spiders end up dropping from the ceiling. I've been just thinking that last was a detail to create an atmosphere, but I wonder now. Does it seem to anyone else like they come up a lot? Spiders play a big role in book 2 and Moody uses spiders to illustrate the unforgivables in book 3. (I can't think of any spider incidents in book 3.) It is also spiders that Ron is phobic about, which is a contrast with Harry, who is quite used to them. Maybe it's just coincidence and JKR uses spiders just because so many people think spiders are creepy and spiders are associated with creepy things (lots of spider stuff around during Halloween, for example). I was just curious as to whether anyone else has wondered about all the spiders. Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Thu Sep 5 14:22:16 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb P) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 07:22:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Spiders In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020905074953.044cdb30@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> Message-ID: <20020905142216.29685.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43647 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Carol Bainbridge wrote: > As I was rereading book 1, I began thinking about the role of > spiders in the HP saga. The first time they come up, it is in the > scene in Harry's cupboard when he is getting dressed and pulls a > spider off his sock. At this point we learn that Harry is used to > spiders (unlike Ron). Yes, I believe that this is meant to place Harry in deliberate contrast to Ron. In fact, Harry's whole life has been so horrible we learn in book 3 that what he fears most is--fear. Which is perhaps why he's avoided it. ;) > When Uncle Vernon visits Harry in the cupboard a little later, > some spiders end up dropping from the ceiling. I've been just > thinking that last was a detail to create an atmosphere, but I > wonder now. Does it seem to anyone else like they come up a lot? > Spiders play a big role in book 2 That was a natural side-effect of the basilisk being the co-villain with Tom Riddle and Lucius Malfoy in CoS, since "spiders flee before it." (The basilisk.) > and Moody uses spiders to illustrate the unforgivables in book 3. I think you meant to type 'book 4.' > (I can't think of any spider incidents in book 3.) When they're learning to fight boggarts, Ron's boggart turns into a spider. He's muttering something like "take its legs off," and later, that's just what happens, and the body goes rolling across the floor before the boggart changes shape again. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From crussell at arkansas.net Thu Sep 5 14:40:23 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 14:40:23 -0000 Subject: Purpose vs. Destiny In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020904184407.03f79930@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43648 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Carol Bainbridge wrote: > At 9/4/02 06:43 PM, bugaloo37 wrote: > > >> >IMO-Harry is a free agent-who seems to > >have certain special abilities which have proven to be effective > >against Voldemort. Where these abilities came from and how Harry > >will develop them and for what purpose (theres my word again) he will > >use them -will be left strictly up to him. > Carol wrote: > Again I agree. It could be, though, that Dumbledore understands what that > special quality is that Harry has as well as why it is so significant, and > that understanding is what motivates him to set up those lessons and tasks > for Harry so that Harry will be equipped to take on Voldemort is that is > his choice. After all, if Harry isn't prepared, there's not much choice, > is there? He'd be toast. If this is true, then we don't have to worry > about purpose any more than we'd have to worry about destiny. Harry's > ability would be something that is simply a part of him, a part that could > be put to good use, but it doesn't give him purpose, necessarily, nor does > it dictate his destiny. It does, however, give him a serious choice to make. > Bugaloo37 replies: Thanks for your response. I wanted to tell you I enjoyed it- especially in reference to your comment above concerning Harry being "prepared" by Dumbledore. IMO, Dumbledore is taking on the role of parent as far as Harry is concerned. Harry has had no real guidance from adults so far in his life-only abuse. Some of my favorite scenes in PoA are the ones in which Harry has one-on-one conversations with Lupin. Lupin's obvious love and care for Harry are exactly what he needs after years of neglect( I love Lupin-by the way). To get back to Harry's being "prepared" by Dumbledore, IMO, this preparation is more than just the learning of skills or the development of Harry's unique gifts-it encompasses the instilling of Harry with the knowledge that he is held in high regard-not just for his talents-but also simply for himself. His friendships with Ron and Hermione, the obvious affection of Mrs. Weasly-these things are also "preparation" in a sense because they increase self-esteem and enhance Harry's ability to love in return-which in turn increases the chances that when the time comes-he will make the right choices-even as these choices become ever more difficult to make. Also as a sidenote-but maybe not completely off the subject- one of Harry's biggest disappointments in PoA was also one of mine. When Harry was unable to go and live with Sirius- I felt his disappointment so deeply. I know that this situation was necessary plot-wise-but it still made me so sad for Harry. bugaloo37-who if you haven't figured it out yet-simply loves Harry!! (not to mention Lupin and Sirius-and not merely because they love Harry) From SaalsG at cni-usa.com Thu Sep 5 14:47:51 2002 From: SaalsG at cni-usa.com (Grace) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 09:47:51 -0500 Subject: Who is paying the bills? Message-ID: <008601c254eb$36879c60$5c4053d1@SaalsD> No: HPFGUIDX 43649 Lupine arrives at Hogwarts looking very much like a tired, worn and unhealthy person. Later we learn that he hasn't been able to find employment, and thanks to Dumbledore, he gets the DADA job. Things begin to look up for him - until Pettigrew and Black show up. He decides to quit this great job that he obviously loves, is good at and the students not only like him (well, maybe not the Slytherins) but he appears to be good at. It must have been a difficult decision and one based on a degree selflessness. At the end of GoF, Dumbledore tells Black: "Lie low at Lupin's for a while; I'll contact you there." Hm... first thing I thought to myself was that perhaps Dumbledore should have asked Lupin if he wanted a house guest. then I got th wondering how Black and Lupin are managing to live. Lupin has difficulty getting a job and Black is a convicted murderer. Certainly he can't be seen walking around. We know that Black has a Gringotts account with obviously a good supply of gold (if he can afford a Firebolt) - but it isn't likely that he can walk into Gringotts and make a withdrawal. If he sends Lupin there, I think the MoM would be watching for that too. And wherever Black sends his gold to pay for those weekly expenses would eventually attract attention, don't ya think? How would you manage this if you were Lupin and Black? Grace [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Thu Sep 5 15:09:37 2002 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 15:09:37 -0000 Subject: Quality of Hogwarts' less-regarded teachers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43650 We tend to brand certain Hogwarts' teachers as incompetent. The list usually includes Quirell, Lockhart, Trelawney, and Binns. Some might include Snape in that list. I have to ask, why? Look at perhaps the worst of the bunch, Lockhart. True, he himself was a fraud, but was the knowledge he imparted a fraud? Remember where all those books came from. They came from a great deal of painstaking research. The details are all there, AND they had to be right. If they weren't, he would have been exposed as a fraud long before. There is just the minor (?!?) problem of attribution. Just because he was incapable of doing the things he claims to, doesn't mean he can't teach what to do. He just can't demonstrate it or give practical lessons. Trelawney falls into this same category. True seers are extremely rare according to McGonagall. Would they be teaching at Hogwarts? Not unless they want to. Trelawney teaches the syllabus. If one of her students turns out to be a seer, he will get the proper grounding. Otherwise, the students are getting the basics of a subject few will ever master. We simply do not know enough about Quirell to judge his competence. We know he didn't give practical lessons, but that is about all we know about him as a teacher. Then there is Snape. Whatever you may say against him -- and that is quite a bit! :) -- he is an effective teacher. For one thing, he loves potions. You simply cannot fake that. That opening speech he gives to the first years is not coming from a man who hates potions. He is a stickler for details. HE HAS TO BE! If the students do not get the potions exactly right, the consequences would be dire! I can fully understand his frustration with Neville Longbottom. I don't excuse his treatment of him, but I understand his frustration. You have to get it right, or not at all. Period. He certainly conveys that IMHO. My summary is essentially this, that even the least regarded Hogwarts' teachers are doing their job. They are teaching. Give them -- and Dumbledore -- a break. Marcus From draco382 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 5 15:48:13 2002 From: draco382 at yahoo.com (draco382) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 15:48:13 -0000 Subject: Spiders In-Reply-To: <20020905142216.29685.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43651 > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Carol Bainbridge wrote: > > As I was rereading book 1, I began thinking about the role of > > spiders in the HP saga. The first time they come up, it is in the > > scene in Harry's cupboard when he is getting dressed and pulls a > > spider off his sock. At this point we learn that Harry is used to > > spiders (unlike Ron). > I've thought about the significance of spiders as well...I think spiders are the other item JKR has fixated on throughout the books. The first being socks. She keeps mentioning socks, and i believe if you search through the archives, there is an awesome post that counts out every occurance of socks in the novels so far (of which there are many). Hmmm...pulling spiders off of a sock. what does it mean.... well...just something to think about :-) ~draco382 (resurfacing for a moment) From dark30 at vcn.bc.ca Thu Sep 5 15:12:29 2002 From: dark30 at vcn.bc.ca (tbernhard2000) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 15:12:29 -0000 Subject: Destiny, Truth In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020904184407.03f79930@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43652 Responding to 2 posts by Carol > Are you talking about how the > characters themselves deal with truth? I understood you to mean how > the authors dealt with truth, that is, how true to life the stories were. > I've had a problem with the destiny theories. Harry asks Dumbledore why Voldemort tried to kill him. Dumbledore says he can't tell him - but when Harry's ready, he'll know. Dumbledore says its good for Harry to grow up in ignorance of what has happened to him, in ignorance of the magical world. That is the kind of thing I am talking about. The books are saying, at times, at critical points, that ignorance is good, that knowledge is contamination. That is what makes me question the role of so-called truth in the books. I make connections between this and the adult reader's interest, fascination with the books. Don't we want not to have to know so much? Don't we want to drop what we know, and live by the heart? > And when you ask what > belief is being "suspended," do you mean instead what DISbelief is > being suspended? This is peculiar. Of course I am familiar with the term. But yet I have chosen to say "suspension of belief" each and every time. By way of explanation, I can only submit that for myself, knowledge, feeling, belief, etc. are not, in fact, separate levels of reality or experience - rather they are inextricably bound to each other. Likewise, belief and disbelief are pretty much identical. If I believe Dumbledore is right in his attitude towards Harry's ignorance about why he is hunted, I am suspending my belief that knowing about ourselves is useful. The irritating thing is that this happens over and over again in the book. Rowling seems to be asking me to suspend belief, in the usefulness of knowledge or the pursuit of it. > If this is true, then we don't have to worry > about purpose any more than we'd have to worry about destiny. Harry's > ability would be something that is simply a part of him, a part that could > be put to good use, but it doesn't give him purpose, necessarily, nor does > it dictate his destiny. It does, however, give him a serious choice to make. This is the idea of purity of heart, right? That, even though he doesn't *know*, he will be able to choose correctly, or choose, rather, the way that leads to less death and destruction, or something like that. It's very hard to talk about it without knowing what it is, it seems. I never used the word purpose, but I think, in a situation where there is no intimate knowledge of what Harry *is*, other than one with a *good heart* or whatever, or why he *is* still, it makes a reading that sees others as manipulating Harry, giving him purpose, as it were, very easy, and, apparently, common. All I know is that, if someone had held this kind of knowledge from me at eleven because I wasn't, ostensibly, prepared for it, I would have built quite a resentment of that person by time I was "old enough," especially if that person had been silly enough to say to me I could ask them anything at all, and they had assured me they would try to answer - the assumption being, of course, that what they couldn't answer would be because they didn't know the answer, not because they didn't want to tell me, for my own good. Yuck. There is a personal connection, which I won't go into detail about, but let me just say that, for me, that would have been an absolutely atrocious thing to say. darkthirty From olivia at rocketbandit.com Thu Sep 5 15:19:19 2002 From: olivia at rocketbandit.com (Olivia) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 11:19:19 -0400 Subject: Quality of Hogwarts' less-regarded teachers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c254ef$9b44f5e0$9ca2e3d8@agstme.adelphia.net> No: HPFGUIDX 43653 I agree wholeheartedly Marcus, with all the points you made. And I'd like to add a couple points of my own. For one, it's said over and over again, but it can't hurt to reiterate it at least one more time: we're see Hogwarts from Harry's point of view. It's common knowledge that most kids just don't like school. They don't want to do homework, they don't want to sit in class and take notes, they don't want to have to listen to lectures, but that's all part of growing up. Even Hermione finds that she's dangerously close to being in over her head in Book 3 when she takes on more classes using the Time Turner. Professor Binns may give a very dry class in lecturing directly from his notes, but it's part of the curriculum and the students need to learn it. As Marcus said, Professor Snape is very strict but he needs to be. How did it go in Book 1 to the First Years on their first day of class? "You are here to learn the subtle science and exact art of potion-making." There's zero room for error and as much as it seems that Snape would be a lot happier if Hogwarts had no students, he certainly doesn't want to see any of them blow themselves up. Very similar arguments can be made for the other teachers as Marcus very nicely pointed out. But it's essential to remember that we're seeing Hogwarts through the eyes of a teenage boy who would much rather be out on the Quidditch field than memorizing the details of the goblin rebellions or precisely measuring out potions ingredients. Olivia Marcus said: "We tend to brand certain Hogwarts' teachers as incompetent. The list usually includes Quirell, Lockhart, Trelawney, and Binns. Some might include Snape in that list. I have to ask, why? . . . . even the least regarded Hogwarts' teachers are doing their job. They are teaching. Give them -- and Dumbledore -- a break." From jodel at aol.com Thu Sep 5 16:47:46 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 12:47:46 EDT Subject: The Stone and the Mirror Message-ID: <9c.2589086a.2aa8e4b2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43654 ats_fhc3 writes; << Actually, Harry was trying to escape from...someone (I can't remember who because I don't have my books and my mind has been poisioned by the film-that-must-not-be-named), and he took some wrong turns and wound up in that empty classroom. Now, unless Dumbledore IS omnipotent, there is no way for him to calculate Harry's going into the restricted section in the middle of the night, then taking the exact amount of wrong turning that would take him to the mirror. >> Harry was dodging Snape and Filch after the restricted book let out a shriek which chased Harry out of the Library. (And Mrs Norris) Which brings up a few other possibilities. One of my other lists went into a full examination of Stone with an intent to justify a reading that Dumbledore and Snape suspected Qurirrel from very early on and were in cahoots throughout that whole book to trap him. (We did a pretty good job of it, but I won't go into that at length here.) There are grounds to base such a reading on. It is clear that something was planned for the Hufflepuff match (with Snape refereeing) which was upset when Harry caught the snitch too soon. Under this reading; Dumbledore is an experienced intellegence officer, and he knows kids. He knows that Harry and Ron have hitched up with their year's preminent bookworm. He knows that they are aware that Nicholas Flammel is significant. Normally he would expect to be watching for Hermione to make a raid on the Restricted section -- but she has gone home for the Christmas break. Since he suspects that Harry and Ron will probably make at least one effort during the break, he decides to turn the inevitable to use. 1. He has the Mirror set up in a room on the same floor, not too far from the Library. 2. He sends Harry his father's cloak. 3. He drops a word in Filch's ear to keep an eye on the Library area over the holidays. 4. He discusses his intention of letting Harry retrieve the Stone afterwards with Snape, tells him where he has had the Mirror set up. and lets him know that he expects a raid on the library during the break at some point from Christmas on. (Snape would have been told about the cloak at this time, if he had not deduced its existence earlier. Snape would also have probably been throughly grumphed over the decision, but Dumbledore is his boss.) 5. He goes to the room where the Mirror is set up Christmas night and waits. When the book set up its howling, both Snape and Filch (WITH Mrs Norris -- and her little cat's nose, which can track things she cannot see) were in place to intercept Harry and herd him in the direction of the room with the Mirror. While I doubt that Filch was fully conversant of what was going on, Snape was able to follow Harry's progress by the opening and closing of doors and knew when they had sucessfully maneuvered him where Dumbledore wanted him. Hey, I don't say that my interpretation is necessarily the truth, but pretty well all the facts fit it without the need for fudging on the part of any of the actual actions taken. FWIW, I think the whole series of "task" chambers was intended as a trap for Voldy's agent, rather than as an actual bar to getting hold of the Stone. I'd say that Dumbledore could even have engineered that "urgent message from the Ministry" which called himself away as a signal for everyone to be ready to pounce when the agent broke his cover, except that no one seemed to have taken it as a signal to take their places for springing the trap. -JOdel From crussell at arkansas.net Thu Sep 5 17:51:10 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 17:51:10 -0000 Subject: Quality of Hogwarts' less-regarded teachers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43655 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "prefectmarcus" wrote: > . True seers are extremely > rare according to McGonagall. Would they be teaching at Hogwarts? > Not unless they want to. Trelawney teaches the syllabus. If one of > her students turns out to be a seer, he will get the proper > grounding. Otherwise, the students are getting the basics of a > subject few will ever master. > > > > Marcus IMO, there can be no doubt about how the other teachers regard Twelawney- as being somewhat flaky-but in a harmless way. The majority of students also seem to view her this way. IMO, the character of Twelawney was set up by JKR as a way of developing the opposite end of the spectrum effect. In other words, a way to show the differences between being an active participant in determining your future or being a helpless victim of fate. IMO, JKR is a strong advocate of the take charge theory. The take charge attitude is seen in all of her strongest and most effective characters- Dumbledore,Sirius, and even Harry himself has demonstrated this characteristic. IMO, The character of Trelawney is JKR's way of showing us her own personal opinion of those who sit back and do not take action to change the negative aspects of their life. Knowing, as we do, the facts of JKR's personal life, we should not be suprised by the fact that she should incorporate this take charge attitude into the HP series. IMO, this dichotomy can be seen as a central theme of the series. By that, I mean the issue of pureblood vs. mudblood can be categorized in the following way: those who take charge of their lifes never see themselves as victims. They do not believe in the importance of the purity of their bloodline. They believe in their own abilities. The opposite can be said of those who stress the importance of their bloodlines and believe that the so- called purity of blood that they possess entitles them to certain priviliges. I did not intend this post to take the turn that it has but I am glad to take this opportunity to express my admiration for the way that JKR has incorporated her own beliefs concerning how we should view our fellow man into the HP series. bugaloo37-who says Brava!! to JKR for putting into such wonderful words the way I view the world and who knew JKR was in alignment with her own views when she had Harry tell Draco: paraphasing-I will make up my own mind about who is worthy of my regard. From bdmorrp at budget.state.ny.us Thu Sep 5 18:05:49 2002 From: bdmorrp at budget.state.ny.us (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 18:05:49 -0000 Subject: Newer UK Edition of CoS Has Three Changes From Original Edition Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43656 I promised the group that I would identify changes made in the UK adult paperback versions of the books as I make my way through them. I've just finished CoS, and have three changes to report (I'm assuming that these are changes from not only the US editions, which I have, but are also changes from the original UK editions, which I do not have. I checked the pages on the Lexicon that note the differences between the US and UK editions, and these changes are not noted, so I'm presuming that the following are changes from the original UK editions as well): (1) When Harry meets Riddle in the Chamber, in the original edition, Riddle asks Harry "...how is it that you - a *skinny boy* with no extraordinary magical talent - managed to defeat the greatest wizard of all time?" In the newer edition, it reads: "...how is it that a *baby* with no extraordinary magical talent managed to defeat the greatest wizard of all time?" (Ch. 17, emphases mine to show the differences). Since Riddle then goes on to say "How did you escape with nothing but a scar, while Lord Voldemort's powers were destroyed?", it's clear that he's referencing when the AK rebounded from Baby!Harry rather than the Quirrellmort encounter in PS/SS. So the change from "skinny boy" to "baby" makes sense to me. (2) As Harry is running from the Basilisk in the Chamber with his eyes shut, the original edition reads "*Voldemort* was laughing" while the newer edition reads "*Riddle* was laughing" (Ch. 17, emphases mine to show the differences). I think this change is particularly telling - I had previously noticed that this was the only instance in this chapter where JKR referred to Riddle as "Voldemort," and had wondered if it was an error. Apparently it was! (3) In Chapter 18 of the original edition, when Lucius Malfoy and Dobby appear in Professor McGonagall's office, it reads: "The elf was carrying a stained rag with which he was attempting to finish cleaning Mr. Malfoy's shoes. Apparently Mr. Malfoy had set out in a great hurry, for not only were his shoes half-polished, but his usually sleek hair was disheveled. Ignoring the elf bobbing apologetically around his ankles, he fixed his cold eyes upon Dumbledore. 'So!' he said 'You've come back. The governors suspended you, but you still saw fit to return to Hogwarts.'" The newer edition completely eliminates the paragraph about Dobby polishing Mr. Malfoy's shoes and when Mr. Malfoy speaks, it reads: "'So!' said Lucius Malfoy, his cold eyes fixed on Dumbledore. 'You've come back. The governors suspended you, but you still saw fit to return to Hogwarts.'" This change has me baffled - why would Dobby be with Lucius if Dobby wasn't in the middle of performing a menial task such as shoe- polishing? Why leave this out? In addition, the newer edition also has Dumbledore telling Harry that Voldemort is the last remaining *descendant* of Slytherin (Ch. 18), but since we all know that JKR has already owned up to that error, I'm just mentioning it as an aside. I'll keep you posted as I make my way through PoA! ~Phyllis From eloiseherisson at aol.com Thu Sep 5 18:43:12 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 14:43:12 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Newer UK Edition of CoS Has Three Changes From Original E... Message-ID: <12d.16d76757.2aa8ffc0@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43657 Phyllis: > I promised the group that I would identify changes made in the UK > adult paperback versions of the books as I make my way through them. > I've just finished CoS, and have three changes to report (I'm > assuming that these are changes from not only the US editions, which > I have, but are also changes from the original UK editions, which I > do not have. I checked the pages on the Lexicon that note the > differences between the US and UK editions, and these changes are not > noted, so I'm presuming that the following are changes from the > original UK editions as well): > > (1) When Harry meets Riddle in the Chamber, in the original edition, > Riddle asks Harry "...how is it that you - a *skinny boy* with no > extraordinary magical talent - managed to defeat the greatest wizard > of all time?" In the newer edition, it reads: "...how is it that a > *baby* with no extraordinary magical talent managed to defeat the > greatest wizard of all time?" (Ch. 17, emphases mine to show the > differences). Eloise: This isn't a recent change. Unfortunately, I only have an old UK paperback (1998) and it too says, 'baby'. Whether it is a change from the original hardback, I can't be sure. The paperback edition was changed to say 'descendent' rather than 'ancestor', so possibly it is. Phyllis: > (2) As Harry is running from the Basilisk in the Chamber with his > eyes shut, the original edition reads "*Voldemort* was laughing" > while the newer edition reads "*Riddle* was laughing" (Ch. 17, > emphases mine to show the differences). Eloise: My edition also says 'Riddle'. Phyllis: > (3) In Chapter 18 of the original edition, when Lucius Malfoy and > Dobby appear in Professor McGonagall's office, it reads: "The elf > was carrying a stained rag with which he was attempting to finish > cleaning Mr. Malfoy's shoes. Apparently Mr. Malfoy had set out in a > great hurry, for not only were his shoes half-polished, but his > usually sleek hair was disheveled. Ignoring the elf bobbing > apologetically around his ankles, he fixed his cold eyes upon > Dumbledore. > > 'So!' he said 'You've come back. The governors suspended you, but > you still saw fit to return to Hogwarts.'" > > The newer edition completely eliminates the paragraph about Dobby > polishing Mr. Malfoy's shoes and when Mr. Malfoy speaks, it > reads: "'So!' said Lucius Malfoy, his cold eyes fixed on > Dumbledore. 'You've come back. The governors suspended you, but you > still saw fit to return to Hogwarts.'" > > This change has me baffled - why would Dobby be with Lucius if Dobby > wasn't in the middle of performing a menial task such as shoe- > polishing? Why leave this out? Eloise: It had me baffled too. I have never before read this passage, which isn't in my old paperback. Phyllis: > > In addition, the newer edition also has Dumbledore telling Harry that > Voldemort is the last remaining *descendant* of Slytherin (Ch. 18), > but since we all know that JKR has already owned up to that error, > I'm just mentioning it as an aside. Eloise: Which *has* been altered in mine, as I mentioned. I am coming more and more to the conclusion that the substantive changes between the American and UK editions must come from JKR making changes in her manuscripts which for some reason were acted upon by her UK publishers, but not by the American ones. So, for instance, she cut out (or her British editors cut out) the passage about Dobby cleaning the shoes, but it remained in the manuscript that Scholastic were working from. I suspect that the 'skinny boy' and 'Voldemort' quotes were simple authorial error, again picked up and corrected here, but not in the US. Similarly, 'ancestor' was picked up after publication and the opportunity afforded by printing the paperback utilised to make the correction. Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cindysphynx at comcast.net Thu Sep 5 18:48:02 2002 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (cindysphynx) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 18:48:02 -0000 Subject: Newer UK Edition of CoS Has Three Changes From Original Edition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43658 Phillis wrote: >"The elf > was carrying a stained rag with which he was attempting to finish > cleaning Mr. Malfoy's shoes. Apparently Mr. Malfoy had set out in a > great hurry, for not only were his shoes half-polished, but his > usually sleek hair was disheveled. Ignoring the elf bobbing > apologetically around his ankles, he fixed his cold eyes upon > Dumbledore. > > 'So!' he said 'You've come back. The governors suspended you, but > you still saw fit to return to Hogwarts.'" > > The newer edition completely eliminates the paragraph about Dobby > polishing Mr. Malfoy's shoes. Oooh! A *new* mystery! Why would they omit the paragraph about the shoe polishing? Um. I don't know either, Phillis. Maybe, just maybe the problem is that Dobby shouldn't have a rag in his hand? After all, if Dobby is "heavily bandaged" and has to catch a sock later in this scene, perhaps it was felt that Dobby shouldn't have anything in his hands? Eh, that's pretty lame. We can do better than that. Anyone else have a theory? Cindy -- who is impressed that Phillis enticed her to pick up CoS, which she hasn't touched in *months* From alina at distantplace.net Thu Sep 5 19:30:37 2002 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 15:30:37 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who is paying the bills? References: <008601c254eb$36879c60$5c4053d1@SaalsD> Message-ID: <002501c25512$b7232020$4a112b18@shprd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43659 but it isn't likely that he can walk into Gringotts and make a withdrawal. If he sends Lupin there, I think the MoM would be watching for that too. And wherever Black sends his gold to pay for those weekly expenses would eventually attract attention, don't ya think? How would you manage this if you were Lupin and Black? > > Grace > Well, Gringotts seems like a very... independent organization to me. I bet they have a lot of leverage with the MoM. Think about it, they're the only wizards bank, which means they have offices not only in Britain but all over the world where wizards live, right? So if they get into a fight with the MoM in Britain, then it's British wizards who will suffer from lack of a bank, but not the bank. My point is, perhaps Gringotts think it's bad for business if MoM monitors certain accounts? I bet they don't have a problem with anyone unless they're a bank robber. Black isn't a bank robber, so it's possible that Gringotts wont' bother putting his vault under surveilance and won't allow the MoM to poke its nose into Gringotts business. After all, when Sirius indicated his own vault on the mail order form for the Firebolt, no one seemed to get alerted about any recent Firebolt buys. Yes, Hermione did (just to be paranoid) and McGonagall did too, but something tells me that if McGonagall knew that Sirius Black used a mail order form to buy a Firebolt then she would've acted differently. Probably would've taken it away to be destroyed rather than stripped. Alina of Distant Place http://www.distantplace.net/ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release Date: 02/08/2002 From alina at distantplace.net Thu Sep 5 19:37:02 2002 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 15:37:02 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Newer UK Edition of CoS Has Three Changes From Original Edition References: Message-ID: <003f01c25513$9ca20a80$4a112b18@shprd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43660 > (3) In Chapter 18 of the original edition, when Lucius Malfoy and > Dobby appear in Professor McGonagall's office, it reads: "The elf > was carrying a stained rag with which he was attempting to finish > cleaning Mr. Malfoy's shoes. Apparently Mr. Malfoy had set out in a > great hurry, for not only were his shoes half-polished, but his > usually sleek hair was disheveled. Ignoring the elf bobbing > apologetically around his ankles, he fixed his cold eyes upon > Dumbledore. > > 'So!' he said 'You've come back. The governors suspended you, but > you still saw fit to return to Hogwarts.'" > > The newer edition completely eliminates the paragraph about Dobby > polishing Mr. Malfoy's shoes and when Mr. Malfoy speaks, it > reads: "'So!' said Lucius Malfoy, his cold eyes fixed on > Dumbledore. 'You've come back. The governors suspended you, but you > still saw fit to return to Hogwarts.'" > > ~Phyllis > Wow, both of these are completely different from the Canadian edition! The way it reads for us is: Lucious Malfoy stood there, fury in his face. And cowering under his arm, heavily wrapped in bandages was Dobby. "Good Evening, Lucius," said Dumbledore pleasantly. Mr. Malfoy almost knocked Harry over as he swept into the room. Dobby went scurrying in after him, crouching at the hem of his cloak, a look of abject terror on his face. "So!" said Lucious Malfoy, his cold eyes fixed on.... etc. It seems no other edition sees fit to explain why Dobby is there, but what I want to know is why he's wrapped in bandages in the Canadian one? Was he so severely beaten/mutilated by Malfoy? Alina of Distant Place http://www.distantplace.net/ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release Date: 02/08/2002 From gliese229b at aol.com Thu Sep 5 17:30:36 2002 From: gliese229b at aol.com (qaztroc) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 17:30:36 -0000 Subject: More on time travel in PoA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43661 For those who still feel confused by the apparent time travel paradox in PoA, I suggest you have a look at the latest issue of _Scientific American_ which happen to be a special issue devoted to time. There is a paper on page 50 by Paul Davies about time machines ("How to build a time machine"). If you look on page 54, you'll see a nice diagram that illustrates the notorious time travel paradox with a billiard ball falling into a wormhole. You can also go on the _Scientific American_ website www.sciam.com to see the article, the figure I'm talking about is at this URL: http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=0004C31 F-B4E0-1D4E-90FB809EC5880000 Now replace the billiard ball by Harry, and the wormhole by the time-turner, and you have something similar to the PoA time paradox. The "paradox resolved" (right panel) shows that it is entirely consistent for Harry to be rescued from the dementors by his future self. The fact that he is saved then allows him to use the time turner, and go back in time to save his past self. The loop is then closed. There is absolutely no need to invoke a "parallel universe" or "alternate realities" scenario. -- qaztroc From kaityf at jorsm.com Thu Sep 5 18:23:15 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 13:23:15 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Destiny, Truth In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020904184407.03f79930@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020905122737.023416b0@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> No: HPFGUIDX 43662 darkthirty wrote: >Harry asks Dumbledore why Voldemort tried to kill him. Dumbledore >says he can't tell him - but when Harry's ready, he'll know. >Dumbledore says its good for Harry to grow up in ignorance of what >has happened to him, in ignorance of the magical world. That's a leap, isn't it? I don't come to that same conclusion at all based on what Dumbledore says to Harry. Dumbledore does not tell Harry -- or anyone else for that matter -- that it is good for Harry to grow up in ignorance of what happened to him or in ignorance of the magical world. He does tell McGonagall at the beginning of book 1 that it is best for Harry to grow up away from fame, a fame that will come from events Harry probably won't remember (being as how he was only 1 when they took place). However, that is a far cry from saying that Harry should grow up in ignorance of the entire magical world. Dumbledore left a letter with Harry for the Dursleys to give to Harry when Harry was old enough to understand what happened. He clearly did not intend for Harry to grow up entirely ignorant. When Dumbledore chooses not to tell Harry the reason Voldemort tried to kill him, he doesn't add that it's best for Harry to grow up ignorant. That is an interpretation of his remark. And he says he CAN'T tell him, not that he WON'T tell him. That makes me think there's more to it than Dumbledore wanting Harry to be ignorant and in the dark. But even if we want to avoid the semantic quibble between the meanings of "can't" and "won't," we still have to deal with the fact that Dumbledore didn't tell Harry he would tell him the truth when he (Harry) is ready but that Harry would know. How is he going to know? Will someone else tell him or will it become clear once Harry is able to understand everything that has occurred? I don't think that keeping certain facts from children too young to understand them is necessarily a bad thing. Intellect and emotion don't always develop at the same pace and something a child can understand intellectually may not be something he or she can handle emotionally. >That is the >kind of thing I am talking about. The books are saying, at times, at >critical points, that ignorance is good, that knowledge is >contamination. I guess I just don't see it that way. Where children are concerned, there is a fine line between telling them what they need to know and keeping things from them for their own protection. Maybe some people will say that this is wrong and indicates that the person withholding the knowledge thinks that knowledge in general is a bad thing, but I completely disagree. For example, a parent wants keep their children safe from abductors and the like and so warns them of the dangers of talking to strangers. If a child asks why, how much information should a parent give? Most parents keep most of this knowledge away from the children -- for their own good. As bas as that sounds, it is better than imparting every bit of knowledge and possibly making the children overly fearful of people. Sometimes knowledge DOES contaminate. As none of us knows what Dumbledore knows, we can't accurately judge how well he's walked the line between telling Harry what he should know and protecting him. darkthirty: >That is what makes me question the role of so-called >truth in the books. I make connections between this and the adult >reader's interest, fascination with the books. Don't we want not to >have to know so much? Don't we want to drop what we know, and live by >the heart? I don't. And that's not really my interest in the books. In fact, I'm quite fond of Hermione's constant quest for knowledge, being like that myself. Carol: > > And when you ask what > > belief is being "suspended," do you mean instead what DISbelief is > > being suspended? >darkthirty: >This is peculiar. Of course I am familiar with the term. But yet I >have chosen to say "suspension of belief" each and every time. By way >of explanation, I can only submit that for myself, knowledge, >feeling, belief, etc. are not, in fact, separate levels of reality or >experience - rather they are inextricably bound to each other. >Likewise, belief and disbelief are pretty much identical. First of all, I don't see what is so peculiar with my statement. It is simply a term used in literary analysis. It is that term and not yours that is used, although you say you are familiar with the term and chose to use your own. Okay, I can buy that. But if for you they mean basically the same thing, why did you choose to change it? In any case, I don't think belief and disbelief are pretty much identical at all. They may lead to similar conclusions, but they aren't similar to one another. Perhaps you see it this way because of your seeing knowledge, feeling, and belief are part of the same level of reality -- at least that is what you seem to be saying. I, for one, don't see reality that way at all, and don't see knowledge and belief as being that closely related, but that's a philosophical question again, best left to other places of discussion. >If I >believe Dumbledore is right in his attitude towards Harry's ignorance >about why he is hunted, I am suspending my belief that knowing about >ourselves is useful. The irritating thing is that this happens over >and over again in the book. Rowling seems to be asking me to suspend >belief, in the usefulness of knowledge or the pursuit of it. Okay, but then that seems to be a personal thing, a personal belief about knowledge. Is that the point you are trying to make? I mean, I don't think JKR had you in mind when she wrote those stories and I'm not sure that the majority of people see knowledge the same way you do. In addition, as I mentioned before, JKR seems to make a rather big deal about the importance of knowledge and its pursuit. Isn't Hermione constantly searching for knowledge and doesn't much of this knowledge find practical uses? (Polyjuice potion, Nicholas Flamel) Is it just one kind of knowledge you are talking about? You don't mean self-knowledge, do you? I mean, there's more than one way to attain that and Harry is certainly slowly acquiring that. Is it knowledge of his past? Again, I don't know what Dumbledore knows so I really can't evaluate whether he is justified in withholding that knowledge from Harry. Carol: >>If this is true, then we don't have to worry about purpose any more than >>we'd have to worry about destiny. Harry's ability would be something >>that is simply a part of him, a part that could be put to good use, but >>it doesn't give him purpose, necessarily, nor does it dictate his >>destiny. It does, however, give him a serious choice to make. >darkthirty: >This is the idea of purity of heart, right? Not at all. What I said is that if Harry had some special ability, it would simply be a part of him. I did not say that this ability was purity of heart. I have no idea what it might be. It could be extra thick skin for all I know. He is who he is. What he chooses to do with what he is would be determined by Harry. Isn't it Dumbledore who says something to the effect that people need to be judged by what they have become and not what they were born as? That tells me that someone, Dumbledore if no one else, believes that the choices one makes in life will tell us much more than one's birth situation. We can say now that Harry seems to have a purity of heart, but he hasn't gone past 14 yet for us. What choices will he come to make? What is the knowledge that he will gain as he grows older? How difficult will his choices be? This would take us far beyond the purity of heart. All children are born fairly innocent and pure of heart (at least in my belief system). As they get older, they do gain more knowledge. Is that a bad thing? I don't think so, not in and of itself. But what do children do with the knowledge they gain? I think that says a lot more than how one starts out. >That, even though he >doesn't *know*, he will be able to choose correctly, or choose, >rather, the way that leads to less death and destruction, or >something like that. It's very hard to talk about it without knowing >what it is, it seems. If I understand you correctly, then we are probably singing the same song here. It is my point exactly that we can't know anything at all about choices Harry will have to make. We don't even really know if he will have to make any. That was just a best guess we have based on how things seem to be going now. Some people think Harry has a destiny to fulfill, in which case talking about choices doesn't seem to have any point. However, those of us who think there is more to it that simple destiny and fate may want to think about choices, but again, we have no way of knowing for sure what those choices will be or even whether a choice will be pivotal in the story's outcome. >I never used the word purpose, but I think, in >a situation where there is no intimate knowledge of what Harry *is*, >other than one with a *good heart* or whatever, or why he *is* still, >it makes a reading that sees others as manipulating Harry, giving him >purpose, as it were, very easy, and, apparently, common. Because an interpretation is common doesn't mean that it is correct. I'd warrant that most of us have been wrong in many of the plot twists up to this point. Of course, maybe it's just me who was surprised that Quirrel was the bad guy, that Sirius was the good guy, that Scabbers was something more than a lazy rat, that Moody wasn't really Moody. Some people see Harry as being manipulated, but I don't. And I don't think I'm the only one, nor do I think that there are only 5 of us in the world. I'd think that the view that he is not being manipulated in order to serve some purpose is just as common as the belief that he is. >All I know is that, if someone had held this kind of knowledge from >me at eleven because I wasn't, ostensibly, prepared for it, I would >have built quite a resentment of that person by time I was "old >enough," especially if that person had been silly enough to say to me >I could ask them anything at all, and they had assured me they would >try to answer - the assumption being, of course, that what they >couldn't answer would be because they didn't know the answer, not >because they didn't want to tell me, for my own good. Yuck. There is >a personal connection, which I won't go into detail about, but let me >just say that, for me, that would have been an absolutely atrocious >thing to say. But what IS "this kind of knowledge"? We all pretty much agree, as far as I know, that we don't KNOW what the knowledge is that Dumbledore is withholding. For all I know the knowledge could be that Harry is really Voldemort's son, that came out of a test-tube experiment with unicorn blood and polyjuice potion. The Potters caught on to it and kidnapped Harry. Okay, that is a wild stretch and wouldn't be born out by details in the text, but the point is, I have no idea what the knowledge is and can't therefore judge whether Dumbledore is right or wrong for withholding it. From what I know of Dumbledore so far, I am willing to trust what he is doing. I may later want to join in some condemnation of him, but not just yet. Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Thu Sep 5 19:59:41 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (grey_wolf_c) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 19:59:41 -0000 Subject: Newer UK Edition of CoS Has Three Changes From Original Edition In-Reply-To: <003f01c25513$9ca20a80$4a112b18@shprd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43663 Alina wrote: > Wow, both of these are completely different from the Canadian > edition! The way it reads for us is: > > Lucious Malfoy stood there, fury in his face. And cowering under his > arm,heavily wrapped in bandages was Dobby. > "Good Evening, Lucius," said Dumbledore pleasantly. > Mr. Malfoy almost knocked Harry over as he swept into the room. Dobby > went scurrying in after him, crouching at the hem of his cloak, a > look of abject terror on his face. > "So!" said Lucious Malfoy, his cold eyes fixed on.... etc. > > It seems no other edition sees fit to explain why Dobby is there, but > what I want to know is why he's wrapped in bandages in the Canadian > one? Was he so severely beaten/mutilated by Malfoy? > > Alina of Distant Place > http://www.distantplace.net/ That's the exact equivalent to my translated edition, Alina, if it's of any help (at least, our versions seem to be majority). IIRC, Dobby has bandaged because he had to burn his hands with the pressing iron (or whatever the thing used to iron clothes is called) for being unfaithfull to Lucius. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From eloiseherisson at aol.com Thu Sep 5 20:28:17 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 16:28:17 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Newer UK Edition of CoS Has Three Changes From Original E... Message-ID: <157.13992bc6.2aa91861@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43664 In a message dated 05/09/2002 20:34:21 GMT Standard Time, alina at distantplace.net writes: > > (3) In Chapter 18 of the original edition, when Lucius Malfoy and > > Dobby appear in Professor McGonagall's office, it reads: "The elf > > was carrying a stained rag with which he was attempting to finish > > cleaning Mr. Malfoy's shoes. Apparently Mr. Malfoy had set out in a > > great hurry, for not only were his shoes half-polished, but his > > usually sleek hair was disheveled. Ignoring the elf bobbing > > apologetically around his ankles, he fixed his cold eyes upon > > Dumbledore. > > > > 'So!' he said 'You've come back. The governors suspended you, but > > you still saw fit to return to Hogwarts.'" > > > > The newer edition completely eliminates the paragraph about Dobby > > polishing Mr. Malfoy's shoes and when Mr. Malfoy speaks, it > > reads: "'So!' said Lucius Malfoy, his cold eyes fixed on > > Dumbledore. 'You've come back. The governors suspended you, but you > > still saw fit to return to Hogwarts.'" > > > > ~Phyllis Alina: > > Wow, both of these are completely different from the Canadian edition! The > way it reads for us is: > > Lucious Malfoy stood there, fury in his face. And cowering under his arm, > heavily wrapped in bandages was Dobby. > "Good Evening, Lucius," said Dumbledore pleasantly. > Mr. Malfoy almost knocked Harry over as he swept into the room. Dobby went > scurrying in after him, crouching at the hem of his cloak, a look of abject > terror on his face. > "So!" said Lucious Malfoy, his cold eyes fixed on.... etc. > > It seems no other edition sees fit to explain why Dobby is there, but what > I > want to know is why he's wrapped in bandages in the Canadian one? Was he so > severely beaten/mutilated by Malfoy? Eloise: Your version of this scene is the same as mine (UK paperback, 1998). Did Phyllis just miss out the bit about the bandages? I always assumed that Dobby had inflicted the injuries on himself as punishment for being such a bad house elf and trying to help Harry. Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eloiseherisson at aol.com Thu Sep 5 20:35:04 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 16:35:04 EDT Subject: One Singular Sensation (Crouch/Moody FILK) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43665 To the obvious tune, from _A Chorus Line_, by Marvin Hamlisch, with apologies to the lyrics of Edward Kleban. A celebration of the talents of our (well, my) favourite bad guy, Crouch/Moody. One Singular sensation Ev'ry little curse he makes. One Magnificent deception Ev'ry time that he fakes. One glance and suddenly his eye sees right through you. Nobody guesses he's working for You Know Who. One Curse, there is no contest: You will act at his behest. For this guy is second best To none, son. Ooh! Sigh! Give him your attention, Evil beyond your comprehension. He's the one! Eloise From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Thu Sep 5 20:40:03 2002 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 20:40:03 -0000 Subject: Dobby reason (Re: Newer UK Edition of CoS ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43666 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: > The newer edition completely eliminates the paragraph about Dobby > polishing Mr. Malfoy's shoes. ... > > This change has me baffled - why would Dobby be with Lucius if Dobby > wasn't in the middle of performing a menial task such as shoe- > polishing? Why leave this out? > ~Phyllis I can think of two possibilities. (1) Only the American editor was curious about why Dobby was there. She asked JKR, who replied with the polishing shoes text. The editor of the newer U.K. CoS is working from the older U.K. version and not the American. They are not aware of the difference. Only obsessive fans like us would make note it. (2) A mistake was made in this edition. It is almost impossible to not make any typo at all, even with computers (as we all know from sad experience.) However to lose an entire paragraph is noteworthy. Marcus From miss_dumblydore at yahoo.com Thu Sep 5 20:47:51 2002 From: miss_dumblydore at yahoo.com (Heather Gauen) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 13:47:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clue to the CoS? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020905204751.12867.qmail@web20418.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43667 I've heard a couple different theories about the snake on the pipe leading to the CoS; one being that Riddle found it and opened the Chamber, and one saying that Riddle could've left it there himself for those to come after him. As for the first, how could Riddle have possibly discovered that in a *girls* bathroom? Harry had to search carefully to find it when he knew it was there (well, he knew something was there), so I doubt that Riddle could've ever come across it in a room that he wasn't even supposed to be in. But as for leaving the snake there himself... **getting ready to propose my first wild theory** It's in a girls bathroom, right? Where no boy is going to enter (except under extremely odd circumstances). So...what if there is a prophecy that the next heir of Slytherin is a girl? And if so, what impact would this have on the story? All right, I know this is a weird theory with plenty of problems, but I figured what the heck, I've heard some strange ones in this group before. That's what we're all here for, right? Heather, who's *way* too sick of filling out college applications __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Thu Sep 5 20:53:57 2002 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 20:53:57 +0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43668 _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kathrynbav at aol.com Thu Sep 5 19:49:34 2002 From: kathrynbav at aol.com (kathrynbav at aol.com) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 15:49:34 EDT Subject: Why the Order of the Phoenix? Message-ID: <6e.2233ecd9.2aa90f4e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43669 Hi, I have been enjoying the debate here ever since I recently joined and hope it is not too presumptuous for me to post a question/theory at this time. Please mark it up as newbie ignorance if this has been talked into the ground before (but isn't constant analysis/discussion/vigilance what makes HP4GU so much fun?). Last night I came across the Lexicon's fascinating page for *Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix,* but something puzzles me about the title and the predictions regarding the much-anticipated Book Five. Why do we assume that this new order will consist of Dumbledore and "the Old Crowd"? Before looking for your delete key or opening up a return e-mail, please consider the following: How are the titles of the previous four books of the Harry Potter series connected? 1) Philosopher's/Sorceror's Stone - A mythical stone believed to enable to creation of the Elixir of Life that extends the lifetime of the one who consumes it. Voldemort and his minion search in vain for the object, but fall short of their goal that could have resurrected the Dark Lord. 2) Chamber of Secrets - Site of Tom Riddle's greatest victory (both the source of great dark power and the illusion of his good deed that saves Hogwarts). The TomRiddle!Diary strives desperately to reclaim/resurrect this past success by reopening the Chamber (and thus enabling himself to become physically substantial), but is doomed for failure as the victory is snatched away at the last moment. 3) Prisoner of Azkaban - Although the WW lives under the illusion that Sirius Black betrayed the Potters, Book Three reveals that he in fact was a pawn in Voldemort's power struggle. The truth of Wormtail's betrayal, combined with Padfoot's victory over the Dementors and escape, prove that even when darkness seems to succeed, the light of truth will shine through the shadows. 4) Goblet of Fire - Mystical object that binds into a magical contract those whose names it chooses. Fake!Moody corrupts this tool in order to set-up Harry for Voldemort. As is common in most pivotal moments (as well as the darker tone creeping into the series), this marks a potential success for the Dark Arts. Only time will tell. So, what does all this mean for Book Five: *Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix*? If my assumptions above are even remotely correct, then could it not be argued: 5) Order of the Phoenix - Secret organization created by, and for the explicit use of, a newly resurrected Voldemort. A new name for a new wave of destruction that will wash across the WW. Yes, Harry's wand has Fawkes' feather at its core, but consider who has the brother wand. As much as I love Fawkes and the good he represents, I feel JKR's deliberate use of Fawkes' other feather is indicative of another layer of symbolism beyond the fireworks at the end of Book Four. A phoenix is a bird that rises from the ashes of its own destruction: a) "Bone of the father; unknowingly given, you will renew your son!" b) "Flesh - of the servant - (willingly) given - you will - revive - your master." c) "(Blood) of the enemy ... forcibly taken ... you will ... resurrect your foe." (GoF, Ch. 32) Betrayed since birth by the father who would not love him, Voldemort suffers another severe blow when his servant's efforts to aid the Dark Lord's cause lead to the near destruction of the leader at the hands (eyes?) of a young Harry Potter. How fitting that the elements - the ashes - of Voldemort's greatest defeat(s) shall in turn bring about his revival. And from the ashes of his own destruction, he will be resurrected with new life. Only a twisted soul like Voldemort could corrupt a concept based upon light and goodness. And as is common in the psyche of arch-villains, only Voldemort would be arrogant enough to acquaint his successful resurrection with that of the phoenix (the core of his power). I realize that the above will probably be deemed a stretch, but I would like to point out that much of the debate stimulated here is based upon *assumptions* regarding textual evidence. What I loved most about the film *The Sixth Sense* was the fact that the audience could never assume they know the complete truth. Just when you least expect it, the tables can turn, revealing the truth that was there all along. This is what I love so much about JKR's Harry Potter series, and this is what causes me the greatest frustration as I observe the various debates. If you question the above theory, you should read some of the other ideas I have generated under the question of whether we assume too much. Once again, I apologize for any and all mistakes in posting this. I am simply hoping for advice/guidance. If I am wrong, please do not label me an idiot; rather, point me back along the correct path. As I slip back into lurkdom, thanks, once again, for the lively debate. Kathy From crussell at arkansas.net Thu Sep 5 21:14:35 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 21:14:35 -0000 Subject: Destiny, Truth In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020905122737.023416b0@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43670 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., > darkthirty wrote: > >I never used the word purpose, but I think, in > >a situation where there is no intimate knowledge of what Harry *is*, > >other than one with a *good heart* or whatever, or why he *is* still, > >it makes a reading that sees others as manipulating Harry, giving him > >purpose, as it were, very easy, and, apparently, common. > Carol wrote: > Some people see > Harry as being manipulated, but I don't. And I don't think I'm the only > one, nor do I think that there are only 5 of us in the world. I'd think > that the view that he is not being manipulated in order to serve some > purpose is just as common as the belief that he is. > Carol Bainbridge > (kaityf at j...) > > http://www.lcag.org I felt compelled to respond at this point on the issue of "purposing" and "manipulating". IMO, everyone has a purpose in life. Sometimes parents recognize and foster certain abilities in their children to prepare them for an uncertain future. However uncertain the future, we all know there are certain decisions that will have to be faced by all human beings. As parents, we hope that the values we attempt to instill in our children will inable them to make the right decisions. Would you call this manipulation? In the case of Harry, we know that for whatever reason Voldemort has obviously chosen him as a target. IMO, at this point in time, Dumbledore is preparing him for his confrontations with Voldemort- which happen frequently. Dumbledore promotes Harry's development of his unique abilitites in order to ensure Harry's own personal survival-if the WW is saved in the process-what is the harm? I simply refuse to see this as manipulation. IMO, Dumbledore, Hagrid, McGonagall, Lupin, Sirius, and Mr. and Mrs. Weasley - all have a genuine heartfelt concern for Harry's well-being. This does not mean that at least Dumbledore is unaware of Harry's gifts and will not foster these abilities for Harry's own benefit and the benefit of others. IMO, let me re-emphasis- I do not see this as manipulation. To have a purpose in your life-chosen of your own free will-fostered by your own abilities (did Harry's parents impart some special ability to him?-only time will tell-but even if they did, it was for his own safety-not to restore order to the WW-although that maybe an added plus)-recognized and promoted by those who love you and have only the best wishes for you- is not manipulation. bugaloo37-who apologizes for the length of this post-but felt very strongly the need to clarify her opinion-and who absolutely abhors the idea of manipulation being a part of the HP series. From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Thu Sep 5 21:18:57 2002 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (coriolan_cmc2001) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 21:18:57 -0000 Subject: Hat Says to Harry (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43671 Hat Says to Harry (CoS, Chap 12) (to the tune of Hat's Off to Larry, by Del Shannon) Dedicated to Lilac Hear the original at http://www.angelfire.com/rock/musicraptor/hrrIX/indexIX.html THE SCENE: Dumbledore's Office. In the corner is a decrepit Phoenix. Waiting alone, HARRY can't resist trying on the Sorting Hat again HARRY Once I wore the Sorting Hat My head, it went upon it I try it on now another time It put this bee in my bonnet SORTING HAT Hat says to Harry, I know your Sort I tell you Slyth'rin should be your first resort You'd best Malfoy, you'd fill Snape's heart with joy, joy, joy If you signed up with the Slyth'rin crew (Fawkes the Phoenix ignites in a fiery blaze and dissolves) HARRY (shocked) I think this place is weird. That bird in flames just disappeared! SORTING HAT But there's one more thing I gotta say Hat says to Harry, I may be mental But you shouldn't be super kind and gentle You'd reach your dreams if you'd to learn to scheme scheme scheme This ol' Hat gives good advice to you (HARRY puts the HAT aside with considerable alarm) HARRY Hat off, says Harry, it gives me chills (Enter DUMBLEDORE, unaware of HARRY's conversation with the Hat. He is pleased to see that Fawkes rebirthing has commenced) DUMBLEDORE My poor old Phoenix bird, he's been so very ill In ashes lies, but pretty soon he'll rise rise rise (HARRY sees the fledging Fawkes rising from the ashes) ALL (including HAT) Phoenixes don't say goodbye to you To you .. To you .. - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From wmginnypowell at msn.com Thu Sep 5 22:19:33 2002 From: wmginnypowell at msn.com (merimom3) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 22:19:33 -0000 Subject: Other schools, the Lake, Dumbledore and the Truth Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43672 Other schools, evidence for or against Jeff said: >Neville states: >"And you should have seen their faces when I got in here -- they >thought I might not be magic enough to come, you see. Great Uncle >Algie was so pleased he bought me my toad." >The key words here are "When I got in here." If there was the >possibility that he may not get into Hogwart's then there must be >other schools. I disagree. Saying you didn't "get in" does not imply there were other places to get into. You could say you didn't get in to a club or a college, and mean that therefore you aren't in any club or college. It doesn't help us either way, I'm afraid. The Lake: Deep Psychological waters? [bboy and Amy discussed the importance of first years taking boats to the castle.] I just wanted to point out that the first years also took boats BACK to the train. "Hagrid was there to take them down to the fleet of boats that sailed across the lake," third from last page of PS/SS. While I was enjoying finding significance in their arrival, I can't see any in their departure by the same route. While it seems clear that only first years went by boat TO Hogwarts, no mention is made of how upperclassmen got there. And it is not clear that upperclassmen took a different route back to the train. IMHO, JK had not thought about it until she had to write something in PoA (having conveniently avoided it in CoS), and came up with carriages. Carol said: >When Dumbledore chooses not to tell Harry the reason Voldemort >tried to kill him, he doesn't add that it's best for Harry to grow >up ignorant. That is an interpretation of his remark. And he says >he CAN'T tell him, not that he WON'T tell him. That makes me think >there's more to it than Dumbledore wanting Harry to be ignorant and >in the dark. I had not noticed this before, but you're right, and maybe it's because he's a Secret Keeper! Nothing says there wasn't more than one aspect of whatever James and Lily were up to / why Voldemort wanted to kill them. Maybe they took him up on his offer of Secret Keeper-ship for the "why" part, while eventually giving Peter care of the "where" part. Got it backwards, if you ask me, but there ya go. So even if Dumbledore wants to tell Harry, he is bound by a promise not to, under what conditions we won't know until they are met, like Harry coming of age or Dumbledore dying. Ginny (not THAT Ginny) From kaityf at jorsm.com Thu Sep 5 21:52:23 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 16:52:23 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Destiny, Truth In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020905122737.023416b0@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020905161847.023ea410@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> No: HPFGUIDX 43673 bugaloo37 wrote: >I felt compelled to respond at this point on the issue >of "purposing" and "manipulating". IMO, everyone has a purpose in >life. Sometimes parents recognize and foster certain abilities in >their children to prepare them for an uncertain future. I would agree with you completely -- except that I'm a person who really doesn't subscribe to the "we have a purpose" in life philosophy. Aside from that, I think you are right in what you say about manipulation. I suppose people on the list can debate the semantics of "manipulation" versus "fostering, but there is clearly a difference and I'd say it's one of connotation rather than denotation. Being frugal and being stingy refer to similar types of behaviors, but I'd rather be considered frugal than stingy. The former is positive; the latter, negative. Anyway, it seems to me that part of a parent's job is to "manipulate" a child into becoming the desired adult. I like to think of it more as guidance myself. I also think that manipulation indicates that you are attempting to get someone to do something that you really don't believe is the right thing. For example, children try to manipulate adults in order to get something they know they shouldn't/aren't allowed to have or do something they shouldn't/aren't allowed to do. The manipulator also gets something out of the manipulation, so it's a rather selfish act. Most parents aren't, therefore, manipulating their children, nor is Dumbledore manipulating Harry in this way. >However >uncertain the future, we all know there are certain decisions that >will have to be faced by all human beings. As parents, we hope that >the values we attempt to instill in our children will inable them to >make the right decisions. Would you call this manipulation? In the >case of Harry, we know that for whatever reason Voldemort has >obviously chosen him as a target. IMO, at this point in time, >Dumbledore is preparing him for his confrontations with Voldemort- >which happen frequently. That's exactly how I see it. Preparing someone for a hazardous future is hardly what I'd call manipulation. I don't even think it matters if that future is destined or not. Preparation is just not the same as manipulation. >Dumbledore promotes Harry's development of >his unique abilitites in order to ensure Harry's own personal >survival-if the WW is saved in the process-what is the harm? I >simply refuse to see this as manipulation. Me either. Actually, from what I've read, I think your view is the majority rather than the minority view. >IMO, Dumbledore, Hagrid, >McGonagall, Lupin, Sirius, and Mr. and Mrs. Weasley - all have a >genuine heartfelt concern for Harry's well-being. And that doesn't fit in well with the idea of manipulation, does it? That's part of the reason I can't see the treatment of Harry as manipulation. Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From kaityf at jorsm.com Thu Sep 5 22:32:08 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 17:32:08 -0500 Subject: "Freedom is slavery..." Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020905170438.023000e0@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> No: HPFGUIDX 43674 I was looking through the archives for discussions on the slavery/house elves issue and found quite a bit, but nothing that relates to a thought I had about it -- or at least I couldn't find anything on it. In the book _1984_ George Orwell wrote "Freedom is slavery and slavery is freedom." Has anyone thought about this in connection to the situation with the house elves? Here's my thinking on this: if one is a slave, they don't have to think about what to do. They are simply told. They don't need to agonize over any moral decisions (generally speaking). Therefore, in a sense they are free. On the other hand, if one is free, they have to constantly make decisions and figure out what to do. I had wondered why JKR stuck the house-elves subplot in book 4, which seemed to have quite a bit to deal with already. Now I do think that some of it has to do with the idea of tolerance, but surely this could be handled another way, within the main plot. The recent discussions on the list about free will and decision making made me start thinking that maybe there is a connection between that idea and the subplot of the house elf slavery. It could explain why the house elves don't much like the idea of being free. Not that slavery is a good thing, mind you, but maybe it's there as a contrast to show what it means to be free, that freedom does not come without responsibilities; that is, if one wants to keep that freedom. I don't know. Maybe it's just a wild thought. I just started thinking about it and decided that the slavery of the house elves would make a nice contrast with the freedom Harry has, including the freedom to make choices. If he isn't free to make those choices, wouldn't he be a slave to something? Like his destiny? Apparently I have entirely too much time on my hands or I am really trying hard to avoid doing some unpleasant chores (succeeding to by the look of all the writing I've been doing recently.).... Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From hp_fan16 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 5 22:43:05 2002 From: hp_fan16 at yahoo.com (gabrielle jones) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 15:43:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Quality of Hogwarts' less-regarded teachers In-Reply-To: <1031258874.2554.11276.m4@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20020905224305.54308.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43675 I agreed with all of Marcus' arguments about the Hogwarts faculty. But there is one thing I'd like to comment on. Marcus said: "We tend to brand certain Hogwarts' teachers as incompetent. The list usually includes Quirell, Lockhart, Trelawney, and Binns. Some might include Snape in that list. I have to ask, why? . . . . even the least regarded Hogwarts' teachers are doing their job. They are teaching. Give them -- and Dumbledore -- a break." umm me: I think I must be extremely awful at getting my *actual* point across. My original post was regarding the importance of DADA, being it's lack of fully *reliable* teachers, and that some teacher's who would be excellent at the job (Dumbledore, Snape) never became DADA teachers. I wondered whether or not the general attitude (in my opinion) reflected that of the attitude of the entire wizarding world; Lack of DADA emphasis at Hogwarts: Lack of emphasis on protection against DA in the WW. This sort of analogy worked in Trelawney's case. Lack of respect of Divination at Hogwarts: Lack of respect for Divination in the WW. Even if one doesn't want to call it a 'lack of respect' per se, it's still seems a general disregard for that branch of magic. Of course seeing the future would be nice but a true seer is no rare, the art bears low accountability. So then are Dark wizards just 'so rare' that there's barely a reason to defend against it? Dumbledore's come up against two awful ones so far in his lifetime, so they don't seem too uncommon. I certainly would like to be prepared at least. So does the wizarding world just not believe them enough of a threat to put any real importance on their children's DADA education? Perhaps. Maybe there just aren?t any real qualified teachers. But Snape, Dumbledore? I guess that maybe Transfiguration and Potions are more important. Should they be? After reading Marcus' many examples of accused "incompetent" teachers, I've also wondered about the overall importance of the educational process at all. Has having 'less than wonderful' teachers been decided by someone as the best way to learn? or at least not an obstruction to the learning process? or is it just that, like many of are own muggle schools, there just *isn't* enough competent teachers? Then again it could just be that the wizarding would puts too much emphasis on education, and it's just too impossible to teach certain things, so the school just puts up these classes (with less than great teachers) to shut the public up? I have no idea. Hence my post. I wanted to know if anyone had any good reasons for this slightly off educational system, or specifically the DADA classes and teachers. I certainly would want my children to be able to defend themselves just as much as have them know potions. DADA is life or death. Hope I didn?t stray too far again and, in consequence, lose my point. =) Gabrielle~ Who would like to add, that she has a great respect for any who teaches, and would love to give them and Dumbledore a break, just is a bit curious about priorities. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From manic1066 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 5 23:05:35 2002 From: manic1066 at yahoo.com (manic) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 16:05:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Convenient Plot Devices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020905230535.16124.qmail@web10702.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43676 There I was. Actually plotting out a Harry Potter story. Which given the glacial state (movements in Alaska notwithstanding) of my writing pace should be finished sometime in the next two years and I just started laughing. Does anyone else realize how easy JKR has made it for people to do anything and everything in her universe? Aside from killing Voldemort, of course. There's a spell or device for everything. Need to know someone's innermost thoughts? look into their pensive. Need a few more hours, use a time turner. Want to sneak around? Don't worry, there's an invisibility cloak. Need to do something? Create a potion or spell. I feel like Chuck Jones might have felt when giving the Wile E. something to do, need a tool? Simply place a 'ous' or something after it to give the thing a vaguely Latin feel and go with it. This is better than the Hellmouth. Nothing is out of bounds. hee manic ===== manic whacking the world a safe place... http://www.livejournal.com/users/manic1066/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com From Zarleycat at aol.com Thu Sep 5 23:29:19 2002 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 23:29:19 -0000 Subject: Who is paying the bills? In-Reply-To: <002501c25512$b7232020$4a112b18@shprd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43677 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Alina" wrote: > > but it isn't likely that he can walk into Gringotts and make a withdrawal. > If he sends Lupin there, I think the MoM would be watching for that too. > And wherever Black sends his gold to pay for those weekly expenses would > eventually attract attention, don't ya think? > > > > > Well, Gringotts seems like a very... independent organization to me. I bet > they have a lot of leverage with the MoM. Think about it, they're the only > wizards bank, which means they have offices not only in Britain but all over > the world where wizards live, right? So if they get into a fight with the > MoM in Britain, then it's British wizards who will suffer from lack of a > bank, but not the bank. > > My point is, perhaps Gringotts think it's bad for business if MoM monitors > certain accounts? I bet they don't have a problem with anyone unless they're > a bank robber. Black isn't a bank robber, so it's possible that Gringotts > wont' bother putting his vault under surveilance and won't allow the MoM to > poke its nose into Gringotts business. > > After all, when Sirius indicated his own vault on the mail order form for > the Firebolt, no one seemed to get alerted about any recent Firebolt buys. Along those lines, since it seems that Gringotts can call their own shots, perhaps there is a way for Sirius to authorize a transfer of funds from his account into Remus'. If money can be pulled out to buy a broom, it seems logical that there must be some way to send a form, parchment, or some such piece of paper to instruct the bankers to move money. It could be duly signed by Sirius and the goblins could make the transfer. Certainly I don't think Sirius would stroll down Diagon Alley to do this in person, but if he could send a post owl with instructions - Why not? The goblins certainly don't seem to care about the criminal background of their clients. Marianne From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Sep 5 23:58:34 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (bboy_mn) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 23:58:34 -0000 Subject: Newer UK Edition of CoS Has Three Changes From Original Edition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43678 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: > I promised the group that I would identify changes made in the UK > adult paperback versions of the books as I make my way through them. > I've just finished CoS, and have three changes to report ... ....EDITED.... > > (1) When Harry meets Riddle in the Chamber, in the original edition, > Riddle asks Harry "...how is it that you - a *skinny boy* with no > extraordinary magical talent - managed to defeat the greatest wizard > of all time?" In the newer edition, it reads: "...how is it that a > *baby* with no extraordinary magical talent managed to defeat the > greatest wizard of all time?" (Ch. 17, emphases mine to show the > differences). > ....EDITED... > > (2) As Harry is running from the Basilisk in the Chamber with his > eyes shut, the original edition reads "*Voldemort* was laughing" > while the newer edition reads "*Riddle* was laughing" (Ch. 17, > emphases mine to show the differences). > ....EDITED... > > (3) In Chapter 18 of the original edition, when Lucius Malfoy and > Dobby appear in Professor McGonagall's office, it reads: "The elf > was carrying a stained rag with which he was attempting to finish > cleaning Mr. Malfoy's shoes. Apparently Mr. Malfoy had set out in a > great hurry, for not only were his shoes half-polished, but his > usually sleek hair was disheveled. Ignoring the elf bobbing > apologetically around his ankles, he fixed his cold eyes upon > Dumbledore. > > 'So!' he said 'You've come back. The governors suspended you, but > you still saw fit to return to Hogwarts.'" > > The newer edition completely eliminates the paragraph about Dobby > polishing Mr. Malfoy's shoes and when Mr. Malfoy speaks, it > reads: "'So!' said Lucius Malfoy, his cold eyes fixed on > Dumbledore. 'You've come back. The governors suspended you, but you > still saw fit to return to Hogwarts.'" > > This change has me baffled - why would Dobby be with Lucius if Dobby > wasn't in the middle of performing a menial task such as shoe- > polishing? Why leave this out? > > In addition, the newer edition also has Dumbledore telling Harry that > Voldemort is the last remaining *descendant* of Slytherin (Ch. 18), > but since we all know that JKR has already owned up to that error, > I'm just mentioning it as an aside. > > I'll keep you posted as I make my way through PoA! > > ~Phyllis bboy_mn comments: What I want to know is WHO is making these decisions? Then I want to know WHY? I hardly believe that the publishers are consulting JKR on all these changes, and I certainly question whether some copy editor (or whatever they are called) is qualified to rewrite a book with a plot this complicated. There are subtle seemingly insignificant things that eventually turn out to have major plot/story critical significants. Now I find, to complicate matters even more, that there are not TWO english to english 'translations' of the book but three; British English, Brit. to American English, and Brit. to Canadian English. Now I have to wonder, how many other version of English are different? Are the changes in the Australian English version that we don't know about? We recently discussed a good example of why copy editors shouldn't presume that they know the book better than the original author. It has come to light that the American version of PS/SS has Hagrid saying that he has to get the giant motorcycle BACK to Sirius, then we find out later, it was originally written to say, he had to get the motorcycle put away. Obviously, a change by an American copy editor who hadn't read the later books, and didn't realize he was changing something significant. I REALLY REALLY don't like this, REALLY. I think it is fine for copy editors (or whatever they are called) to correct minor errors, but by no means whatsoever should they be rewriting the book, and certainly shouldn't be throwing out entire paragraphs. In the third example you gave, regarding Dobby, I think the missing paragraph is critical. The mark of a good house-elf, as we find out later, is that you don't see them, you don't know that they are there; so for a house-elf to appear the way Dobby is in this scene, is significant, very significant. Since house-elves remain hidden, it's important to justify why Dobby is there. I simple can't seen any justification that a copy editor could possible come up with that could explain changing or leaving out this paragraph. I think JKR needs to sit down with the publishers and have a serious talk with them, and maybe do some serious butt kicking while she's at it. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. bboy_mn From olivia at rocketbandit.com Thu Sep 5 23:24:55 2002 From: olivia at rocketbandit.com (Olivia) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 19:24:55 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Convenient Plot Devices In-Reply-To: <20020905230535.16124.qmail@web10702.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000301c25533$714908a0$9ca2e3d8@agstme.adelphia.net> No: HPFGUIDX 43679 manic said: "This is better than the Hellmouth. Nothing is out of bounds." Fellow BtVS writer! I've been writing in the Buffdom for a few years now as well as writing in the Harry Potter verse, and have also realized the advantages to writing in the HPdom. Like you said, almost nothing is off-limits. And if there's no known spell for what you want, make it up. Whereas in Buffy, there is definitely a limit to vamp's bag of tricks. It's hard to question something invented by an HP fic author because there's always the fail-safe argument: "It's magic." JKR really has allowed fanfic authors to flex their pen-holding muscles by giving us A, a wide assortment of interesting characters and relationships between said characters. And B, very few restrictions on the premises she introduces. HP is clearly geared to folks with rabid imaginations and all sorts of interests. From readers and thinkers (hence HPforGrownups) to fic writers and artists. It's a wonderful world. Olivia From porphyria at mindspring.com Fri Sep 6 00:38:02 2002 From: porphyria at mindspring.com (porphyria_ash) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 00:38:02 -0000 Subject: Destiny, Truth In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020905161847.023ea410@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43680 darkthirty said: << I think, in a situation where there is no intimate knowledge of what Harry *is*, other than one with a *good heart* or whatever, or why he *is* still, it makes a reading that sees others as manipulating Harry, giving him purpose, as it were, very easy, and, apparently, common. >> bugaloo37 disputed that this constituted 'manipulation' and countered: >> To have a purpose in your life-chosen of your own free will-fostered by your own abilities (did Harry's parents impart some special ability to him?-only time will tell-but even if they did, it was for his own safety-not to restore order to the WW-although that maybe an added plus)-recognized and promoted by those who love you and have only the best wishes for you- is not manipulation. >> Now Porphyria: But in order for Harry to be able to choose his purpose in life of his own free will, he needs information. If he doesn't have enough information to make an informed decision, then he has to be trusted to 'feel' or 'intuit' or 'just sense' the right decision; in other words we'd need to trust his 'purity of heart.' Indeed, Harry often makes the right decisions based on the wrong information, especially at the climax of every book. Harry didn't know that Quirrell was after the Philosopher's Stone, nor did he understand the nature of the protections in place -- it's likely that Quirrell would have just been stranded in front of the Mirror or Erised if Harry hadn't bothered to pursue him. But Dumbledore (and we) recognize Harry's actions as heroic. Harry had no idea that his mother's love would protect him from Quirrell, but that's what saves him in a pinch. Similarly, Harry didn't know that Tom Riddle was the culprit in CoS, nor that his loyalty to Dumbledore would effectively summon Fawkes and the sword of Gryffindor, but everything works out for him OK nonetheless. And in GoF, he had no idea what the Prior Incantatem did, but he instinctually knew how to handle it. So the point is that Harry somehow doesn't need objective knowledge to make the right decision, to be heroic. He needs, as darkthirty puts it, a 'good heart.' There is a lot that Harry doesn't know about his situation: 1) why Voldemort wanted to kill him in the first place, 2) what Trelawney's first accurate prediction was, 3) the complete extent of his powers, both what powers the scar conferred upon him and what other unique abilities he may have, 4) the meaning of the Gleam in Dumbledore's eye, 5) the nature of his parents' involvement in the campaign against LV, 6) whether or not James was significant in some other way, such as being descended from Godric Gryffindor. And that's just off the top of my head. Now Dumbledore might be withholding some of these things from him for a good reason, and a few he might not even know for sure. And a few things we have to write up to plot convention -- we wouldn't be quite as curious for the next book if every mystery were revealed. My interpretation is that Dumbledore doesn't tell Harry everything not because the knowledge would be contaminating per se, but more overwhelming. Which is what Carol and bugaloo37 mean when they point out that some knowledge might be a little much for a child to handle. OTOH, Harry is no longer a child and you'd think that he himself would start to demand answers for some of these questions. I'm not 100% sure that we can decide right now what the role of Harry's knowledge about himself will play since the gradual revelation of this knowledge is part of the story arc, and we're only halfway through the story. Still, we can observe that the books seem to privilege one type of knowledge over another, and the more 'objective' the knowledge, the more limited its usefulness. Darkthirty said: << That is what makes me question the role of so-called truth in the books. I make connections between this and the adult reader's interest, fascination with the books. Don't we want not to have to know so much? Don't we want to drop what we know, and live by the heart? >> And Carol replied: << I don't. And that's not really my interest in the books. In fact, I'm quite fond of Hermione's constant quest for knowledge, being like that myself. >> Porphyria: I feel this way myself, but you have to ask yourself what good Hermione's constant quest for knowledge does in the plots. Carol continues: << In addition, as I mentioned before, JKR seems to make a rather big deal about the importance of knowledge and its pursuit. Isn't Hermione constantly searching for knowledge and doesn't much of this knowledge find practical uses? (Polyjuice potion, Nicholas Flamel) >> Porphyria: See, the Polyjuice potion was cool, but it did them absolutely no good. The only thing they learned was that Draco was *not* the heir of Slytherin, plus Hermione learned the hard way why not to confuse cat hair with people hair. It didn't advance the plot or help to solve the mystery; it hit a dead end. And as to Nicholas Flamel, all Hermione's searching through history books and Harry's sneaking into the library netted them absolutely nothing. Harry found the answer on the back of a trading card that was a gift from Ron. In my post from Sunday I detailed as best I could the various ways that the type of booklearning Hermione brings to the table is good, but second best, in much the same way that Hermione herself remarks that being in "Ravenclaw wouldn't be too bad," as a sort of afterthought to her comment "I hope I'm in Gryffindor, it sounds by far the best." Harry's internal, instinctual knowledge always outdoes Hermione's objective, logical knowledge. So I agree with darkthirty to the extent that the books seem to endorse a sort of 'not knowing,' an instinct for the right choice over intelligence on its own. I'm not sure, however, if this is why adult readers like the books. While everyone wants to be a little like Harry, at the same time it's our adult curiosity for the knowledge of the books' secrets that drives us, that makes us all crave the next one. As a group, we constantly strive to figure out future plot twists and backstories; we're extremely curious. We scour JKR interview transcripts and buy the schoolbooks. We form discussion groups like this one. We write FAQs and maintain informational web sites and on and on. So while I tend to feel that the typically "Ravenclawish" personality gets short shrift in the books, I think there is lots of room for us out in the fandom. ~Porphyria From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Fri Sep 6 01:13:14 2002 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 01:13:14 -0000 Subject: Newer UK Edition of CoS Has Three Changes From Original Edition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43681 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bboy_mn" wrote: > What I want to know is WHO is making these decisions? Then I want to > know WHY? > bboy_mn Well, the usual process is for the editor to make their suggested changes and send them to the author to approve. They often will mark- up a text with the suggestions, comments, and questions. For example, I can easily see the American editor of CoS in the Dobby and Malfoy scene penciling in the margin, "Why is Dobby there?" JKR, who was working with the Americans at least half a year after the Brits, would realize that that is a perfectly valid question and add the bit about the shoe polishing. Meanwhile the U.K. version has been out for at least six months and nobody is complaining. Why change it? Purist might complain, but in the meantime everybody is working on getting PoA out the door. Then after all the changes have been done, the publisher will send galley proofs to the author for final approval. Most authors will read it through looking for obvious errors but might miss something along the line. After that, it is set in stone, errr.. lead. Marcus From rvotaw at i-55.com Fri Sep 6 01:24:43 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 20:24:43 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and the Stone/Elixir References: <00a001c2545a$fc9c80a0$69a2cdd1@istu757> <5.1.0.14.0.20020904201337.03f1aec0@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> Message-ID: <022201c25544$2ec08060$e2a0cdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 43682 Carol Bainbridge writes: > On first thought, I like this theory. (I don't have a second thought, > yet.) It may have some lose ends, but it still makes some sense. Wouldn't Yes, well, the lose ends are JKR's problem. :) > I'm not sure I buy into the Harry-will-die theory, in any guise, but I do > like the idea that Voldemort might *think* he is killing Harry, with Harry > being protected -- again. Personally, I'd love to see that. Pride often > leads to a fall, and if Voldemort was so sure he had defeated Harry, it > would be nothing short of delightful for me to watch Voldemort fail -- again. I suppose it is even possible that the older Harry gets and the better trained he becomes, if an AK would bounce again, it could perhaps have an even greater effect? Destroy Voldemort completely instead of "just" ripping him from his body. > I could buy this as long as I don't have to think of Lilly and James > experimenting on their own child. Well, I think it all depends on the circumstances. First, the thought of Harry being a lab rat isn't so great. However, depending on the circumstances surrounding it, maybe it's not so bad. For example, if he *were* given pure Elixir of Life and not a concoction, it was well known that it wouldn't hurt him. Didn't hurt Nicholas Flamel. Which brings me to another point. Do we *know* that there was only one stone? The book Hermione got the information from said there had been many reports of SS over the centuries, but only one was currently in existence. Are we so certain? Could the Potters have had one? It's just that the RED of the stone and the GOLD it turns any metal to sounds strangly familiar. Where have I heard red and gold before? Oh, right, Gryffindor. And Harry does have a vault full of *gold* which we don't know where it came from. Well, obviously from his parents, but how'd they get rich? Someone at some point in the past had to aquire the money, it didn't just appear. Unless, of course, it did, with the help of a certain stone. But alas, I'm getting off track again. > Now if Lilly administers a potion to > Harry because at the moment Voldemort is busy in the living room busy > killing James and she doesn't have a lot of options left, then I can buy That is certainly a possibility too. > it. What other option would there be? Just leave it all alone, knowing > that Voldemort will come up and kill them, or at least Harry? I like the > idea, too, that Lilly begged for her life as a distraction to give the > potion time to work. It would explain the begging, if she really knew that Voldemort could care less anyhow. And if the potion was highly experiemental Harry was about to die anyway, so it wouldn't matter. It would definitely be a last resort. > Some may say that Voldemort wouldn't bother listening > to 3 seconds of begging because he's cold-hearted and totally disinterested > in such things. However, some people, like Voldemort, are cruel and > heartless enough to enjoy listening or watching someone beg. It gives them > an extra thrill they wouldn't get if they just went blasting straight away. He did seem to get a thrill from it. Harry hears over and over the laughing from Voldemort before Lily is killed. The laughter seems to be the most prominent part of the flashbacks and he heard a high voice cackling with laughter in the nightmares he had in SS/PS. Richelle From bdmorrp at budget.state.ny.us Fri Sep 6 02:03:46 2002 From: bdmorrp at budget.state.ny.us (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 02:03:46 -0000 Subject: Newer UK Edition of CoS Has Three Changes From Original Edition In-Reply-To: <003f01c25513$9ca20a80$4a112b18@shprd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43683 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Alina" wrote: > Wow, both of these are completely different from the Canadian > edition! The way it reads for us is: Lucius Malfoy stood there, > fury in his face. And cowering under his arm, heavily wrapped in > bandages was Dobby. "Good Evening, Lucius," said Dumbledore > pleasantly. Mr. Malfoy almost knocked Harry over as he swept into > the room. Dobby went scurrying in after him, crouching at the hem > of his cloak, a look of abject terror on his face. "So!" said > Lucius Malfoy, his cold eyes fixed on.... etc Now me: Just to clarify my original post - the lines you've referenced above are in both my newer UK version and in my US paperback edition - they just precede the part I originally quoted about Dobby polishing Lucius' shoes which was left out of the UK version. Eloise's post solves most of the mystery, in that it looks like most of these changes were made between the UK hardback edition and the UK paperback edition (which explains why they're not on the Lexicon differences page, as that page was probably referencing the hardback edition). ~Phyllis From rvotaw at i-55.com Fri Sep 6 02:44:59 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 21:44:59 -0500 Subject: Question about Book changes/ Neville Message-ID: <002f01c2554f$64efa700$dc9ecdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 43684 Okay, I'm thoroughly confused here. Why do some versions change and some don't? If I recall, in the "adult" UK version of SS/PS, which is I believe the most recent UK edition, Hagrid's comment about Sirius bike is changed from "bring Sirius his bike" to "put the bike away." Something like that. However, in what I believe is the latest US edition (the smaller navy blue edition of SS/PS printed last November) the change is not made. Can't they get together on these things?! This particular change does clear up the confusion caused by PoA when in The Three Broomsticks Hagrid says "Told me to take his motorbike ter get Harry there. 'I won't need it' he [Sirius] says." Which implied that he didn't want the bike back, yet Hagrid had previously said in the first book that he was going to return it. So yes, that change was needed. But why didn't Scholastic make the change as well when they reprinted?!? Next topic, I really don't think Neville's under an imperious curse. It just doesn't figure. How would one transfer control of an Imperious? Especially while the one who supposedly put the curse on is having his soul sucked out. Yuck. Anyway, that said, since Crouch Jr. was one of the four on trial for the torture of Frank Longbottom, he obviously knew that Neville knew about the Cruciatus curse. Yet he calls on Neville to give the name of an unforgivable, and then performs it right there in front of him, albeit on a spider. Doesn't that constitute emotional abuse? Now, I know we thought that was Moody. But Moody was at the trial, right? Or am I getting my trials mixed up? Regardless of whether he was or not, as a fellow auror I'm sure he knew all the details. And Dumbledore is okay with this?! I just don't get it. Maybe I'm just too tired and need to go to bed. Richelle ------------------------------------ Richelle R. Votaw 1st grade teacher Kentwood Elementary ------------------------------------ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Fri Sep 6 03:03:44 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb P) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 20:03:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Convenient Plot Devices In-Reply-To: <20020905230535.16124.qmail@web10702.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20020906030344.15494.qmail@web13001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43685 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., manic wrote: > Does anyone else realize how easy JKR has made it for people to do > anything and everything in her universe? Aside from killing > Voldemort, of course. There's a spell or device for everything. I have to strongly disagree. There are limits on the things you mention, and ones you don't, as well. The fact that the wizarding world has organized itself, that it has a government and laws, says that they realize that folks shouldn't just be allowed to run around wreaking havoc with magic. Dark wizards are considered dangerous because they don't recognize these limits. It's said by McGonagall that Dumbledore could do types of magic he chooses not to, presumably because it's Dark Magic. Just because someone with no moral compass could, in theory, do whatever they like doesn't mean that is how the wizarding world works. Clearly they are trying to prevent that kind of anarchy. > Need to know someone's innermost thoughts? look into their > pensive. That's assuming a) they have a Pensieve; b) they've put the thoughts you're interested into said Pensieve; c) you know where they keep their Pensieve; and d) you can break through any locks or charms being used to protect the Pensieve. > Need a few more hours, use a time turner. This is closely regulated by the Ministry. They don't let just anyone have Time Turners. And Hermione was only supposed to use it to attend classes. Dark wizards don't seem to have access to these, for instance, or Voldemort would be able to kill Harry in a trice. And clearly the Ministry doesn't think it's worth mucking around with time or they'd use a device like this when they know that Death Eaters or Voldemort himself have been in a certain place at a certain time. It would be pretty easy to vanquish old Riddle if the Aurors used Time Turners, wouldn't it? But it seems they choose not to, on principle. > Want to sneak around? Don't worry, there's an > invisibility cloak. It was established that this kind of cloak is not only rare but quite costly. Everyone and his brother does NOT have an Invisibility Cloak. > Need to do something? Create a potion or spell. Like what? We haven't seen anyone create a new spell or potion in the books. I don't know where you get the impression it's easy to invent a new potion or spell. It's certainly not canon. We've seen Harry, Ron and Crouch turn into other people by brewing an existing potion, Polyjuice Potion, which is hard enough. It takes weeks at a time to brew, and needs all kinds of ingredients not readily available, plus the recipe for it was in the Restricted Section of the Hogwarts library, probably in a book that's been out of print for hundreds of years. > I feel like Chuck Jones might have felt when giving the Wile E. > something to do, need a tool? Simply place a 'ous' or something > after it to give the thing a vaguely Latin feel and go with it. I think you've greatly oversimplified the wizarding world JKR has created. And many spells and potions (like the Wolfsbane Potion) are beyond many people. Apparating isn't something all magical people can do. Conjuring a Patronus is "very advanced magic," according to Hermione (who, incidentally, isn't even very good at flying a broom, so one hopes she'll eventually learn to Apparate). As Moody/Crouch said, if any of the fourth-year Gryffindors had tried to cast the Killing Curse on him, they might be lucky to give him a nosebleed. Do you think if this stuff were easy they'd have to spend seven years learning it? --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Sep 6 03:26:50 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (bboy_mn) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 03:26:50 -0000 Subject: The One and Only Gringotts Bank? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43686 Someone else recently made a comment about Gringotts bank (post# 43659), although, I'm not presenting it in the original context. The statement was that wizards only have one bank which makes it a pretty sophisticated organization because it's able to serve the entire world (as in the entire planet). All wizards of all countries keep their money in Gringotts or a local branch office of Gringotts. Quoting Alina of Distant Place in Post# 43659: "... Think about it, they're the only wizards bank, which means they have offices not only in Britain but all over the world where wizards live, right? ...." -end quote- I'm not sure, is Gringotts but consensus of the group (since canon is lacking) the only wizards bank in the UK? ...in Europe? ...in the 'western' world? .....in the world? If it's the only wizard's bank in the world that solves a major problem I'm having in one of my fan fiction stories. So.... What say you all? bboy_mn From rvotaw at i-55.com Fri Sep 6 03:45:41 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 22:45:41 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Convenient Plot Devices References: <20020906030344.15494.qmail@web13001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000f01c25557$e104d060$22a1cdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 43687 > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., manic wrote: > > Does anyone else realize how easy JKR has made it for people to do > > anything and everything in her universe? Aside from killing > > Voldemort, of course. There's a spell or device for everything. Barb replies: > I have to strongly disagree. There are limits on the things you mention, and ones you don't, as well. The fact that the wizarding world has organized itself, that it has a government and laws, says that they realize that folks shouldn't just be allowed to run around wreaking havoc with magic. Dark wizards are considered dangerous because they don't recognize these limits. I must add this here, I think the whole point overall is that magic *can't* solve everything. For example, the one thing Harry wants more than anything else is his parents. All of the magic in the world can't bring them back. Not a potion, not a curse, not a cloak, not a mirror, not a time turner, nothing. Sure, magic is a nice quick fix for a broken pair of glasses. I think the key here is that there are endless opportunities to add more and more twists and turns through magic. BUT the more that is discovered by Harry and the readers, the more you realize that magic can't fix everything. Harry's deepest longings and most desperate desires can't be fulfilled with magic. Manic writes: > Need to know someone's innermost thoughts? look into their > pensive. Well, let's remember not everyone has a pensive. Only Dumbledore to our knowledge. And were those really Dumbledore's innermost thoughts? No. He wouldn't put those away, he puts the thoughts that are really common knowledge to most people involved. All those at the trial knew what Harry saw in the pensive. At least that particular scene. The pensive, in my opinion, is more for the thoughts that you need to look back on, to find a common theme, to study more carefully. Richelle From Malady579 at hotmail.com Fri Sep 6 05:02:57 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (malady579) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 05:02:57 -0000 Subject: Neville In-Reply-To: <002f01c2554f$64efa700$dc9ecdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43688 Richelle wrote: >> Next topic, I really don't think Neville's under an imperious curse. It just doesn't figure. How would one transfer control of an Imperious? Especially while the one who supposedly put the curse on is having his soul sucked out. << Me: Good point. What would happen if someone was under the imperious curse and someone else also imperious cursed the same person without knowledge that they were already under the curse with another wizard? I would think it would not be possible. One thing is for sure though. If Neville has always been under imperious curse, then he definately is not fighting it. Richelle also wrote: >>Anyway, that said, since Crouch Jr. was one of the four on trial for the torture of Frank Longbottom, he obviously knew that Neville knew about the Cruciatus curse. Yet he calls on Neville to give the name of an unforgivable, and then performs it right there in front of him, albeit on a spider. Doesn't that constitute emotional abuse? << Me: I never drew that parallel before. For some reason that completely spooks me now to see Moody/Crouch who tortured Neville's parents to the point of insanity acting so cooly infront of the class and to Neville. I always glazed over reading that section and never saw the full impact. Watching the spider curses probably are emotional abuse on the children but I think it is address in the chapter at the end with Moody/Crouch's kind words to Neville and Potter. I wonder if those kind words are Crouch's or Crouch's view of what Moody would do? Wherer is that line? I really like CrouchJr.'s character so this puzzles me. What if CrouchJr. followed with Voldemort to the Potters that night and was there at the murders. That would make the scene even more leathal. The very man that brought the downfall of these two young boys lives was teaching them now the curses he used and then comforting them afterwards. It is possible. Sorry I am really tired and my mind wanders. Richelle then writes: >>Now, I know we thought that was Moody. But Moody was at the trial, right? Or am I getting my trials mixed up? Regardless of whether he was or not, as a fellow auror I'm sure he knew all the details. And Dumbledore is okay with this?! << It really abused both Harry and Neville really, but I think Dumbledore and Moody/Crouch thought it would help toughen them up a little by showing them what they already know exists. Childhood memories are often worse than the real deal, though I can not imagine torture and death getting worse. It is like everyone not saying Voldemort's name. All it does is promote fear and nothing else. If they started saying his name, they would have to address the fear and start building courage against it. Same with the curses here. By showing the curses to the kids (teenagers), they now know what is so bad and what to expect. Helps in reduce the anxiety. Melody "A little nonsense now and then is relish by the wisest man." From manic1066 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 6 03:50:52 2002 From: manic1066 at yahoo.com (manic) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 20:50:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Convenient Plot Devices In-Reply-To: <20020906030344.15494.qmail@web13001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20020906035052.92564.qmail@web10707.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43689 --- Barb P wrote: > > I think you've greatly oversimplified the wizarding world JKR has > created. And many spells and potions (like the Wolfsbane Potion) are > beyond many people. Apparating isn't something all magical people > can do. Conjuring a Patronus is "very advanced magic," according to > Hermione (who, incidentally, isn't even very good at flying a broom, > so one hopes she'll eventually learn to Apparate). As Moody/Crouch > said, if any of the fourth-year Gryffindors had tried to cast the > Killing Curse on him, they might be lucky to give him a nosebleed. > Do you think if this stuff were easy they'd have to spend seven years > learning it? I guess my point was, and I was probably a bit too flippant about it, was no matter what the governing laws are. No matter how long it takes to learn something, I have to look at the books with a great deal of wonderment. It's a bouquet of deus ex machina devices.And this isn't a bad thing, it's a testament to how detailed this world is. When Harry began at Hogwarts he had little to link him to his parents. At Christmas he receives his father's cloak thus allowing him to run amok throughout the school to accomplish all his adventures. No matter how rare these are, the fact is, our hero now has something that allows him to sneak about everywhere without the threat of being seen. The same is true for the Maurauders Map, it is given to Harry at the exact moment he requires it. When use of a time turner is needed to rescue Sirius, how convenient it is that Hermione already had one because she was taking every single class Hogwarts had to offer, except Divination. When Harry needs to see information that has been kept from him, Dumbledore's pensieve is sitting there on the desk, just where Harry 'might' want to look into it. While all these things have rules and regulations on how and why to use them, the very fact that they exist makes me laugh. With complete enjoyment. The sheer detail of the wizarding world fascinates me. toodles manic ===== manic whacking the world a safe place... http://www.livejournal.com/users/manic1066/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com From alina at distantplace.net Fri Sep 6 06:36:50 2002 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 02:36:50 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The One and Only Gringotts Bank? References: Message-ID: <001b01c2556f$c91320c0$4a112b18@shprd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43690 > > I'm not sure, is Gringotts but consensus of the group (since canon is > lacking) the only wizards bank in the UK? ...in Europe? ...in the > 'western' world? .....in the world? > > If it's the only wizard's bank in the world that solves a major > problem I'm having in one of my fan fiction stories. > > So.... What say you all? > > bboy_mn > "Wizards have banks?" "Only one. Gringotts." It may not be word by word, but thats' the conversation between Hagrid and Harry when Harry visits Diagon Alley for the first time, getting his school supplies for Hogwarts. Alina of Distant Place http://www.distantplace.net/ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release Date: 02/08/2002 From eloiseherisson at aol.com Fri Sep 6 07:47:13 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 03:47:13 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Newer UK Edition of CoS Has Three Changes From Origin... Message-ID: <8c.1db83ab1.2aa9b781@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43691 bboy_mn: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: > > I promised the group that I would identify changes made in the UK > > adult paperback versions of the books as I make my way through them. > > I've just finished CoS, and have three changes to report ... > ....EDITED.... > > > > (1) When Harry meets Riddle in the Chamber, in the original edition, > > Riddle asks Harry "...how is it that you - a *skinny boy* with no > > extraordinary magical talent - managed to defeat the greatest wizard > > of all time?" In the newer edition, it reads: "...how is it that a > > *baby* with no extraordinary magical talent managed to defeat the > > greatest wizard of all time?" (Ch. 17, emphases mine to show the > > differences). > > > ....EDITED... > > > > (2) As Harry is running from the Basilisk in the Chamber with his > > eyes shut, the original edition reads "*Voldemort* was laughing" > > while the newer edition reads "*Riddle* was laughing" (Ch. 17, > > emphases mine to show the differences). > > > ....EDITED... > > > > (3) In Chapter 18 of the original edition, when Lucius Malfoy and > > Dobby appear in Professor McGonagall's office, it reads: "The elf > > was carrying a stained rag with which he was attempting to finish > > cleaning Mr. Malfoy's shoes. Apparently Mr. Malfoy had set out in a > > great hurry, for not only were his shoes half-polished, but his > > usually sleek hair was disheveled. Ignoring the elf bobbing > > apologetically around his ankles, he fixed his cold eyes upon > > Dumbledore. > > > > 'So!' he said 'You've come back. The governors suspended you, but > > you still saw fit to return to Hogwarts.'" > > > > The newer edition completely eliminates the paragraph about Dobby > > polishing Mr. Malfoy's shoes and when Mr. Malfoy speaks, it > > reads: "'So!' said Lucius Malfoy, his cold eyes fixed on > > Dumbledore. 'You've come back. The governors suspended you, but you > > still saw fit to return to Hogwarts.'" > > > > This change has me baffled - why would Dobby be with Lucius if Dobby > > wasn't in the middle of performing a menial task such as shoe- > > polishing? Why leave this out? > > > > In addition, the newer edition also has Dumbledore telling Harry that > > Voldemort is the last remaining *descendant* of Slytherin (Ch. 18), > > but since we all know that JKR has already owned up to that error, > > I'm just mentioning it as an aside. > > > > I'll keep you posted as I make my way through PoA! > > > > ~Phyllis > > bboy_mn comments: > > What I want to know is WHO is making these decisions? Then I want to > know WHY? > > I hardly believe that the publishers are consulting JKR on all these > changes, and I certainly question whether some copy editor (or > whatever they are called) is qualified to rewrite a book with a plot > this complicated. There are subtle seemingly insignificant things that > eventually turn out to have major plot/story critical significants. > > Now I find, to complicate matters even more, that there are not TWO > english to english 'translations' of the book but three; British > English, Brit. to American English, and Brit. to Canadian English. Now > I have to wonder, how many other version of English are different? Are > the changes in the Australian English version that we don't know about? > > > I REALLY REALLY don't like this, REALLY. I think it is fine for copy > editors (or whatever they are called) to correct minor errors, but by > no means whatsoever should they be rewriting the book, and certainly > shouldn't be throwing out entire paragraphs. > > In the third example you gave, regarding Dobby, I think the missing > paragraph is critical. The mark of a good house-elf, as we find out > later, is that you don't see them, you don't know that they are there; > so for a house-elf to appear the way Dobby is in this scene, is > significant, very significant. Since house-elves remain hidden, it's > important to justify why Dobby is there. > > I simple can't seen any justification that a copy editor could > possible come up with that could explain changing or leaving out this > paragraph. > > > I think JKR needs to sit down with the publishers and have a serious > talk with them, and maybe do some serious butt kicking while she's at it. > > That's my story and I'm sticking to it. > > Eloise: Oh dear, I really must try to remember to take off my invisibility cloak when I post. I seem to have been leaving it on rather a lot, recently. ;-) Or perhaps it's just the *Eau de Chou* which I habitually wear, which puts you off, bboy_mn. ;-) (J/K) Since I forgot, so that you didn't read my reply to Phyllis yesterday, let me reiterate. *IF* these are changes from the original UK edition, they are changes that were made early in the publishing history, at the very least between the first publication of the hardback and the first printing of the paperback, which is the edition I possess (and boy, am I regretting these days being too mean to buy the hardback for my kids when it first came out). *AND* in this case, as in every other case that I remember being cited here, the Canadian and UK editions agree, as does Grey Wolf's Spanish version, from which we can conclude that the Spanish ones were (unsurprisingly) translated from the British, rather than the US editions. Now, lets look at these 'changes'. The first one - well, as Phyllis pointed out, 'baby' makes sense in context, 'skinny boy' doesn't. The second one - again, as Phyllis pointed out, calling Riddle 'Voldemort' there is inconsistent with the rest of the chapter. My conclusion? These are obvious authorial errors, picked up and corrected in the British edition, which somehow slipped through the net in the US. I do not for one minute think they represent an editorial decision to go over the author's head and 'change' her book, any more than in the case of the change from 'ancestor' to 'descendent', which JKR herself admitted was an error and which is the only change which I definitely know was made between the publication of the UK hardback and papaerback versions. (The paperback contains no indication that it is a different edition, simply stating it was first published 1998.) .................. Dobby and the shoe cleaning Well, I'd dearly love someone who has the original UK hardback to tell us what it says. As I pointed out yesterday, my first paperback edition omits the shoe-cleaning paragraph. So does the UK audio book. I find it extremely unlikely that any editor *put that in* and I seriously doubt that it was decided to omit it between the hardback and paperback editions, although I don't know that for sure. The most obvious conclusion to draw is surely that its omission was an editorial change (and we have no evidence whatsoever that it wasn't JKR herself who decided to omit it) made prior to publication but after the manuscripts were with the two publishers. The change got made in one edition (so, yes, maybe the publishers did suggest it) but a similar omission was not made from the American edition. There is a consistent pattern emerging here which simply points to the final authorial/editorial tweaking of a manuscript being published in two countries simply not being properly co-ordinated. Bboy_mn again: >We recently discussed a good example of why copy editors shouldn't >presume that they know the book better than the original author. It >has come to light that the American version of PS/SS has Hagrid saying >that he has to get the giant motorcycle BACK to Sirius, then we find >out later, it was originally written to say, he had to get the >motorcycle put away. Obviously, a change by an American copy editor >who hadn't read the later books, and didn't realize he was changing >something significant>> Eloise: Yes, we did, didn't we. Or at least you did. What you say here is simply incorrect, as I attempted to point out at the time. I then (wearing my invisibility cloak again) replied: >I don't think you can blame the US editors for this one. I have an older UK copy (first >ed paperback) which similarly says that Hagrid is intending to return the bike to >Sirius, as does Phyllis's US copy, so the Lexicon was correct: it's not a 'translation' >issue. > >My guess is that either JKR had simply forgotten she'd written that when she wrote >the scene in the Three Broomsticks or that it was only in writing PoA that she >started to sort out in her own mind the chronology of what really happened in the 48 >hours following Voldemort's vapourisation. Either way, the change in the most >recent UK edition would seem to be an attempt to correct the inconsistency. Let me say this clearly. The change to 'put away' is *NEW*. It irons out a storyline anomaly that has been the same in both UK and US editions of the books from the start. (Although it only became an anomaly on the publication of PoA.) Eloise Jumping up and down and waving her arms in the air in order to attract attention. (And giving Phyllis a big hug for being able to see through the invisibility cloak. Although I'm not sure about the changes being made between HB and PB, though it is logical. I really want to get my hands on a hardback.) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kaityf at jorsm.com Fri Sep 6 06:37:42 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 01:37:42 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Destiny, Truth In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020905161847.023ea410@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020905235400.023e1170@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> No: HPFGUIDX 43692 bugaloo37 wrote: >To have a purpose in your life-chosen of your own free will-fostered >by your own abilities (did Harry's parents impart some special >ability to him?-only time will tell-but even if they did, it was for >his own safety-not to restore order to the WW-although that maybe an >added plus)-recognized and promoted by those who love you and have >only the best wishes for you- is not manipulation. Now Porphyria: >But in order for Harry to be able to choose his purpose in life of >his own free will, he needs information. He has information. It might turn out to be the wrong information, but it's still information. And he acts on it. He doesn't go blindly into situations where he thinks everything is going to be just fine. He often goes on when the knowledge he has tells him it will be dangerous to do so. As for Harry choosing his purpose in life, it seems to me that he's not at a point where he can even begin to make that kind of decision himself. Maybe some 14 year olds can figure out what their purpose in life is and choose their actions accordingly, but I don't know any of them. I did know some who THOUGHT they knew their purpose in life, but as they got older and learned more about themselves and the world around them, they changed their minds. Porphyria: >If he doesn't have enough >information to make an informed decision, then he has to be trusted >to 'feel' or 'intuit' or 'just sense' the right decision; in other >words we'd need to trust his 'purity of heart.' Indeed, Harry often >makes the right decisions based on the wrong information, especially >at the climax of every book. I must be missing something because I don't see how the one thing leads necessarily to the other. Just because someone doesn't have enough information (at least what we would consider enough in Harry's case, being as how we seem to know more than he does), doesn't mean that the person hasn't made an informed decisions. I make informed decisions all the time. They're based on the information I have at that given point in time. Sometimes I think I have all the information. Sometimes I know I don't. But I still base my decisions on the knowledge I have. I don't make my decisions based on intuition. At least not solely on intuition. I'm sure sometimes my decisions have an element of intuition behind them, but that's true whether I think I have all the information or not. To carry on this comparison with Harry, I could say that my ultimate decision is based on "purity of heart," or at least the kind of person I am, but again that factor comes into play whether I think I have all the information or not. It is simply part of who I am, which happens not to be a computer making purely objective decisions based exclusively on objective input. Porphyria: >Harry didn't know that Quirrell was >after the Philosopher's Stone, nor did he understand the nature of >the protections in place -- it's likely that Quirrell would have just >been stranded in front of the Mirror or Erised if Harry hadn't >bothered to pursue him. Again I must be missing something. The fact that Harry didn't know it was Quirrell after the stone doesn't really change much. He thought that it was Snape and he believed it would be dangerous. What's the difference? Would he have behaved differently if he knew Quirrell was the danger and not Snape? Quite honestly, I think the prospect of having to face a person I know hates me and is pretty darn mean would take much more courage than the prospect of facing what I had thought was a stuttering scaredy cat! It seems to me that even if Harry had been told that Quirrell was the evil villain, his mind simply wouldn't have conjured up the same fearful images because he had no experience of them. He did for Snape, though. And I agree that Quirrell might have been stranded in front of the MoE if Harry hadn't arrived. But Harry didn't know that. He KNEW something else. Now if we are saying that someone was about who could have actually told Harry that it was Quirrell who was after the stone and that the charms had been placed there with the knowledge that Harry and Co. could work their way through them, then that might lead to a slightly different discussion. But *we* don't *know* that. We would just be guessing. So until we ourselves have more complete knowledge, how can any of this matter? It's fun to think about, but I don't see how it tells us anything more about Harry's character or about the nature of knowledge, particularly in terms of its relation to our behavior. Porphyria: >But Dumbledore (and we) recognize Harry's >actions as heroic. Harry had no idea that his mother's love would >protect him from Quirrell, but that's what saves him in a pinch. You're right he didn't know. And the fact that he didn't know is exactly what makes me think of Harry as heroic. If he knew he would be protected, what would he need to be courageous for? For example, if I jump in a flooded river in the middle of a severe storm in order to save a drowning child, I'm going to figure that there's a darn good chance that I could die trying to save that child. Let's suppose that I live in a magical world and I have a natural ability to stay afloat and not drown. If I knew ahead of time that I couldn't sink and couldn't drown, the decision wouldn't be nearly so difficult for me. Not so much risk to me then. Limited knowledge or even incorrect knowledge does not mean no knowledge at all, nor does it indicate that one acts on feeling alone. Porphyria: >Similarly, Harry didn't know that Tom Riddle was the culprit in CoS, >nor that his loyalty to Dumbledore would effectively summon Fawkes >and the sword of Gryffindor, but everything works out for him OK >nonetheless. And in GoF, he had no idea what the Prior Incantatem >did, but he instinctually knew how to handle it. So the point is that >Harry somehow doesn't need objective knowledge to make the right >decision, to be heroic. He needs, as darkthirty puts it, a 'good >heart.' I really disagree. Harry knows what he knows at any given point in time, just as we all do. I assure you that had I known certain things at age 17 that I know now, I would have behaved quite differently. That is not to say that I knew nothing and behaved on instinct, or heart or whatever, alone. My decisions were based on a combination of what I felt and what I believed to be true at the time. I seem to keep getting tangled up in philosophical debates here, but this one does seem to revolve around the issue of exactly what objective knowledge is. Is it only objective when it turns out to be true -- at least for the moment? How many of us liked Moody and felt he was a good friend to Harry? Why did we react that way? Because we didn't have objective knowledge or because the objective knowledge we had turned out to be incomplete? Since our knowledge was incomplete, were we reacting based on our "hearts"? I don't think so. I think our hearts told us how to react based on the knowledge we had *at the time.* Porphyria: >There is a lot that Harry doesn't know about his situation: 1) why >Voldemort wanted to kill him in the first place, 2) what Trelawney's >first accurate prediction was, 3) the complete extent of his powers, >both what powers the scar conferred upon him and what other unique >abilities he may have, 4) the meaning of the Gleam in Dumbledore's >eye, 5) the nature of his parents' involvement in the campaign >against LV, 6) whether or not James was significant in some other >way, such as being descended from Godric Gryffindor. And that's just >off the top of my head. Wait a minute -- this looks more like a list of things that we as readers are concerned with. Maybe I'm dense and far more forgetful than I had realized, but I don't recall Harry wondering about his father's significance or possible descendance from Godric, nor do I recall that much ado about the gleam in Dumbledore's eye. Harry just thought for a moment that he saw it. We readers are the ones who are wondering about so much about it. Even if Harry does wonder as much as we do about these things, I don't see how that changes anything. I will still contend that it is Harry's actions based on what he knows at any given time and his responses to that knowledge that define who he is. Porphyria: > My >interpretation is that Dumbledore doesn't tell Harry everything not >because the knowledge would be contaminating per se, but more >overwhelming. Which is what Carol and bugaloo37 mean when they point >out that some knowledge might be a little much for a child to handle. That's exactly it! Porphyria: >OTOH, Harry is no longer a child and you'd think that he himself >would start to demand answers for some of these questions. I'm not >100% sure that we can decide right now what the role of Harry's >knowledge about himself will play since the gradual revelation of >this knowledge is part of the story arc, and we're only halfway >through the story. That is exactly what I've been trying to say, apparently not very well! I would like to add, though, that not all people are as demanding as we might imagine Harry could/should be. I've known kids who are very accepting of what adults tell them, particularly when they trust the adults in question. That is part of who they are and helps to define them. Since I've known kids like this, I've had no problem imagining Harry as such a kid. Add to this the fact that he is encountering adults for the first time in his life (Dumbledore, Hagrid) who seem to genuinely care about him and I just don't see Harry, at this point anyway, demanding more information. I can certainly picture him rebelling against the Dursleys and demanding things from them, but not Dumbledore or Hagrid or anyone of the other adults who seem to care about him in the wizarding world. >Still, we can observe that the books seem to >privilege one type of knowledge over another, and the >more 'objective' the knowledge, the more limited its usefulness. But again I'd have to ask just what objective knowledge it. Is it what we know that we think Harry ought to know? Carol: > In fact, I'm >quite fond of Hermione's constant quest for knowledge, being like >that myself. >Porphyria's response: > >I feel this way myself, but you have to ask yourself what good >Hermione's constant quest for knowledge does in the plots. I thought the issue was with the attitude toward knowledge. Even if none of Hermione's information pans out, she has still sought it out. I don't see this as being turned into a terrible negative quality either. Now, Hermione's know-it-all attitude can be a bit put-offish, but then that's about attitude, not knowledge. >Carol continues: >In addition, as I mentioned before, JKR seems to make a rather big >deal about the importance of knowledge and its pursuit. Isn't >Hermione constantly searching for knowledge and doesn't much of this >knowledge find practical uses? (Polyjuice potion, Nicholas Flamel) Porphyria replied: >See, the Polyjuice potion was cool, but it did them absolutely no >good. The only thing they learned was that Draco was *not* the heir >of Slytherin, plus Hermione learned the hard way why not to confuse >cat hair with people hair. It didn't advance the plot or help to >solve the mystery; it hit a dead end. I have to disagree here too. The fact that they didn't learn what they thought they would learn does not mean that they didn't learn anything productive. Had they not learned that Draco was not the heir, they would have been acting on the belief that he was. That would certainly have led to behave differently, it seems to me. Porphyria again: >And as to Nicholas Flamel, all >Hermione's searching through history books and Harry's sneaking into >the library netted them absolutely nothing. Harry found the answer on >the back of a trading card that was a gift from Ron. I suppose that's true enough. Harry did find Flamel on the back of a trading card, but Hermione did also remember it from a book she had been reading, although it was reading she was doing apparently for pleasure (light reading) and then ran to get the book to get additional information. I suppose we could say from this event, that learning for the sake of learning, or gaining knowledge for no practical reason is not useful, while collecting trading cards it, but I'm not willing to go there. Porphyria: >In my post from >Sunday I detailed as best I could the various ways that the type of >booklearning Hermione brings to the table is good, but second best, >in much the same way that Hermione herself remarks that being >in "Ravenclaw wouldn't be too bad," as a sort of afterthought to her >comment "I hope I'm in Gryffindor, it sounds by far the best." Couple things about this statement. First, I don't think that knowledge and book learning are the same things at all. So, I might tend to agree with you on this issue. There is certainly more to life than what we get from books. We have to be able to apply what we've learned to life. That learning can come from books or it can come from experience. I don't think many of us would want children, particularly ours, to grow up doing nothing but reading books, getting all their knowledge from books and never experiencing the world. Hermione seems to have that tendency, to want to experience the world through books. But again, that's not the equivalent of knowledge. As for Hermione's remarks about Ravenclaw and Gryffindor, they come from a girl whose parents are dentists. What did she know about Gryffindor or Ravenclaw? Being a Muggle myself and having no more information than Hermione had, *I* thought Gryffindor would be the best too, with Ravenclaw a possibly second. Porphyria: >Harry's internal, instinctual knowledge always outdoes Hermione's >objective, logical knowledge. So I agree with darkthirty to the >extent that the books seem to endorse a sort of 'not knowing,' an >instinct for the right choice over intelligence on its own. Is the issue instinct versus book learning or instinct versus objective, logical knowledge. I contend that these are different issues. If the issue is instinct versus book learning, I'm probably going to be leaning more toward instinct. However, if the issue is instinct versus knowledge, then I'm going to have to say one is related to the other, since our "instincts" are really based on whatever knowledge we have (which, BTW, is part of what makes me lean away from book learning -- one doesn't get enough knowledge about the "real" world through books alone). Porphyria: >I'm not sure, however, if this is why adult readers like the books. >While everyone wants to be a little like Harry, at the same time it's >our adult curiosity for the knowledge of the books' secrets that >drives us, that makes us all crave the next one. As a group, we >constantly strive to figure out future plot twists and backstories; >we're extremely curious. We scour JKR interview transcripts and buy >the schoolbooks. We form discussion groups like this one. We write >FAQs and maintain informational web sites and on and on. I would agree with you on this. I would also add that in discussing the books we are also striving to understand a bit about the human condition --- what motivates people, what makes them what they are, etc. Good literature does that and I do think the Potter books qualify as good literature, probably better than some non-Potter fans realize. Porphyria replied: >So while I >tend to feel that the typically "Ravenclawish" personality gets short >shrift in the books, I think there is lots of room for us out in the >fandom. Again, it just seems to me that we might be mixing things together that I don't ordinarily mix together -- book learning and knowledge. Anyway, I would imagine that many of us sitting here thinking about the intricacies of the HP book would like to pretend we'd all be sorted into Gryffindor, but no doubt would find ourselves in Ravenclaw, sitting in the common room discussing our homework. Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From eloiseherisson at aol.com Fri Sep 6 08:05:36 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 04:05:36 EDT Subject: FILK: It's My Bathroom (and I'll Cry if I Want to) Message-ID: <17c.de07e70.2aa9bbd0@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43693 As someone commented recently, you don't write a FILK for ages and then two come along together. Quantity, if not quality! To the tune of _It's My Party_ by Lesley Gore Moaning Myrtle's bathroom. Harry and Ron have finally put two and two together and ask Myrtle how she died. Moaning Myrtle: Nobody knows how I came to be dead Nobody asked me before. It happened quickly somehow, The moment I opened this door. It's my bathroom And I'll cry if I want to, Cry if I want to, Cry if I want to, You would cry, too If it happened to you. I just saw a pair of big eyes, Yellow ones staring at me. I floated away, but soon thought That I'd stay to haunt Olive Hornby. It's my bathroom And I'll cry if I want to, Cry if I want to, Cry if I want to, You would cry, too If it happened to you. She was so sorry, you know, But nobody visits me now Except to throw books at my head, So I sit in the U-bend and howl... It's my bathroom And I'll cry if I want to, Cry if I want to, Cry if I want to. You would cry too If it happened to you. Eloise From iwant12 at hotmail.com Fri Sep 6 08:18:08 2002 From: iwant12 at hotmail.com (fruhu) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 08:18:08 -0000 Subject: What about Harry? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43694 Good morning! I'm prepared to bet this has been discussed here already, but all the same I can't find it in the archives. What will happen to Harry at the end of book seven? Is it likely that he will die, will he become an auror one day, anything else? The thing is that JKR has in numerous interviews (all found at HPGalleries, I can't link to them now because the site is down) said things like: "What makes you think I will not kill him [Harry] then?" and "So you are sure he will not die?" What makes her say these things? At first I thought that's the way it has to be, Harry will die because it's necessary for the plot. But if she were really planning to kill him, I don't think she would talk about it like that. Now I simply think she said that to tease the interviewer or something. But another question is do we want Harry to die. In a way yes, because if he doesn't there'll always be the urge to know what happened to him (then again that can be good food for fantasies). But on the other hand... if he dies it should be written in a way that still leaves the reader with a good feeling. The book The Amber Spyglass, for example (3rd book in His Dark Materials trilogy by Philip Pullman) has a very disturbing ending. The books really peirced my heart in a way no other books have, I think, and when I came to the ending it still felt like that, but in a bad way. That's not how it's supposed to be. Greetings from Fru Hu From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Fri Sep 6 09:30:21 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (grey_wolf_c) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 09:30:21 -0000 Subject: Truth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43695 > Porphyria: > > See, the Polyjuice potion was cool, but it did them absolutely no > good. The only thing they learned was that Draco was *not* the heir > of Slytherin, plus Hermione learned the hard way why not to confuse > cat hair with people hair. It didn't advance the plot or help to > solve the mystery; it hit a dead end. And as to Nicholas Flamel, all > Hermione's searching through history books and Harry's sneaking into > the library netted them absolutely nothing. Harry found the answer on > the back of a trading card that was a gift from Ron. In my post from > Sunday I detailed as best I could the various ways that the type of > booklearning Hermione brings to the table is good, but second best, > in much the same way that Hermione herself remarks that being > in "Ravenclaw wouldn't be too bad," as a sort of afterthought to her > comment "I hope I'm in Gryffindor, it sounds by far the best." > Harry's internal, instinctual knowledge always outdoes Hermione's > objective, logical knowledge. So I agree with darkthirty to the > extent that the books seem to endorse a sort of 'not knowing,' an > instinct for the right choice over intelligence on its own. > > ~Porphyria I think you're trying to obscure the situation. Hermione and her books save the day in any number of occasions during the four books. In fact, even the polyjuice is useful: an investigation rarely advances by actually finding the correct answer in the first try, but by eliminating first the incorrect probable ones. Nevertheless, let's concede that that movement wasn't important. In PS, Hermione herself is saved thanks to the fact that he made Ron see how to cast "wingardium Leviosa", even if Ron doesn't understand it at first. Hermione's talent at magic is not particulrly strong (or particularly weak either), but all her studying allows her to know the spells they need. It's her studying that opens the door to Fluffy, starting the trio in the right direction. And of course, it's her knowledge of plants what allows them to survive the very fist challenge. In CoS, Hermione is out cold a good part of the time, but it's her search in the library that prevents Harry from turning into a statue the first time he faces the basilisk. If Hermione hadn't found the information on basilisks, Harry wouldn't have had a chance. In PoA, Hermione's desire of knowledge is used to introduce the time-turner, and she learns how to use it, allowing Sirius and Buckbeak to be rescued. In GoF, Hermione's knoledge proves invaluable, since she's the one that trains Harry to survive two of the three tasks. She trains him in accio, and in the last task, it is her the one that teaches him all the enchantments he would be needing, both the ones he didn't actually use (like the blocking charm) and the ones that proved very useful (like the one pointing north). And to that, you have to add all the times that Hermione's knowledge helps in some minor ways (the unplotability and apparition ban of Hogwarts, finding out facts of what they're looking for -like about the CoS in Binn's class-, etc.). Hermione is invaluable in the books, more so than Ron is, really. And I don't think that knowledge is undervalued in the books. While it is true that many times Harry faces situations with only incomplete information to help him, what little information he has normally proves useful. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From lupinesque at yahoo.com Fri Sep 6 12:12:42 2002 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (lupinesque) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 12:12:42 -0000 Subject: "Freedom is slavery..." In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020905170438.023000e0@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43696 Carol re: house-elves: > Here's my thinking on this: if one is a slave, they don't have to think > about what to do. They are simply told. They don't need to agonize over > any moral decisions (generally speaking). Therefore, in a sense they are > free. On the other hand, if one is free, they have to constantly make > decisions and figure out what to do. I think this fits very well with Imperius, which is described as a blissful state. No decisions, no worries, physical pains disappear, one can even forget that one is about to be murdered . . . She could have written the curse as something that hurts, but in fact it feels wonderful; it only hurts if you try to fight it off. It's thinking for oneself that's hard. This theme also comes up in Dumbledore's all-too-true warning that what is easy is not always what is right. JKR knows that freedom from moral decisions is a very tempting state of being, and it looks to me as if she's very interested in exploring what makes it possible for some people to shun it and take responsibility (it's in the eyes, that's where you see it). I remember this realization being a very important part of my adolescence, so I'm delighted to think of adolescents discovering it through HP. House-elves are a different take on the issue, but I agree, they're another kind of illustration of the fact that freedom hurts--in their case, because their enslavement literally requires them to punish themselves for free acts. Amy Z From doffy99 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 6 10:54:17 2002 From: doffy99 at yahoo.com (doffy99) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 10:54:17 -0000 Subject: Newer UK Edition of CoS Has Three Changes From Original Edition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43697 erisedstraeh2002 wrote: > (3) In Chapter 18 of the original edition, when Lucius Malfoy and > Dobby appear in Professor McGonagall's office, it reads: "The elf > was carrying a stained rag with which he was attempting to finish > cleaning Mr. Malfoy's shoes. Apparently Mr. Malfoy had set out in a > great hurry, for not only were his shoes half-polished, but his > usually sleek hair was disheveled. Ignoring the elf bobbing > apologetically around his ankles, he fixed his cold eyes upon > Dumbledore. > > 'So!' he said 'You've come back. The governors suspended you, but > you still saw fit to return to Hogwarts.'" > > The newer edition completely eliminates the paragraph about Dobby > polishing Mr. Malfoy's shoes and when Mr. Malfoy speaks, it > reads: "'So!' said Lucius Malfoy, his cold eyes fixed on > Dumbledore. 'You've come back. The governors suspended you, but you > still saw fit to return to Hogwarts.'" > > This change has me baffled - why would Dobby be with Lucius if Dobby > wasn't in the middle of performing a menial task such as shoe- > polishing? Why leave this out? > > In addition, the newer edition also has Dumbledore telling Harry that > Voldemort is the last remaining *descendant* of Slytherin (Ch. 18), > but since we all know that JKR has already owned up to that error, > I'm just mentioning it as an aside. > > I'll keep you posted as I make my way through PoA! > > ~Phyllis ME, MYself And I There is one other explanation why this might have been edited. Perhaps it's because there's a flaw in the idea. DOBBY has a RAG! Do you see it? IF a Sock can set a house elf free and normally a house elf would wear a tea towel or an old pillowcase. Wouldn't/couldn't giving Dobby a rag to polish shoes with, couldn't that be seen as giving him a piece of clothing? Wouldn't just about ANY piece of fabric serve this purpose? It says "CLOTHES," does that mean it has to be HUMAN clothes? A house elf wears a tea towel or a pillowcase as clothing, wouldn't a rag or cloth fit the bill? I'm just guessing. personally, I like the paragraph in there. I think it makes the story flow better. Like others have said, it explains why Dobby is there. It's something that really should be explained. -Jeff From doffy99 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 6 11:12:51 2002 From: doffy99 at yahoo.com (doffy99) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 11:12:51 -0000 Subject: Other schools, the Lake, Dumbledore and the Truth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43698 I said in an earlier post: > Other schools, evidence for or against > Jeff said: > >Neville states: > >"And you should have seen their faces when I got in here -- they > >thought I might not be magic enough to come, you see. Great Uncle > >Algie was so pleased he bought me my toad." > > >The key words here are "When I got in here." If there was the > >possibility that he may not get into Hogwart's then there must be > >other schools. Merimom3 said: > I disagree. Saying you didn't "get in" does not imply there were > other places to get into. You could say you didn't get in to a club > or a college, and mean that therefore you aren't in any club or > college. It doesn't help us either way, I'm afraid. ME again. Objection noted. :) I disagree. I think everyone will agree that anyone with magical powers, especially a young person with magical powers, will need training of some sort. It could come from parents granted, but would you want to trust someone with a weapon like Magic to be trained by an amatuer or a nitwit? I wouldn't. I would want them trained to at least control their magic. Think about the things Harry did before he knew he was a wizard. Making the glass disappear from the Boa Constrictors cage, there were others I can't think of right now. Imagine dozens, if not hundreds or even thousands, of people running around, untrained or trained by an amatuer or a nitwit, in Magic. They would be dangerous. This could explain the low Wizard population in England though. :) A wizard, any wizard, needs training of some sort. If for no other reason than to learn to control his/her powers. A lot of it is my opinion, but it is logical. -Jeff From texasflood331 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 6 06:10:02 2002 From: texasflood331 at yahoo.com (texasflood331) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 06:10:02 -0000 Subject: More on time travel in PoA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43699 updated link to article: http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=0004226A-F77D-1D4A- 90FB809EC5880000&catID=2 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "qaztroc" wrote: > For those who still feel confused by the apparent time > travel paradox in PoA, I suggest you have a look at the > latest issue of _Scientific American_ which happen to > be a special issue devoted to time...("How to build a time machine")... You can also go on the _Scientific > American_ website www.sciam.com to see the article, > the figure I'm talking about is at this URL: > > http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=0004C31 > F-B4E0-1D4E-90FB809EC5880000 > -- > qaztroc From bdmorrp at budget.state.ny.us Fri Sep 6 14:12:56 2002 From: bdmorrp at budget.state.ny.us (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 14:12:56 -0000 Subject: Dobby Shoe Cleaning Paragraph Elimination (WAS: Changes in UK Edition of CoS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43700 I (Phyllis/erisedstraeh2002) wrote (regarding differences between my recently purchased UK adult paperback edition of CoS and the US paperback edition): > In Chapter 18 of the original edition, when Lucius Malfoy and > Dobby appear in Professor McGonagall's office, it reads: "The elf > was carrying a stained rag with which he was attempting to finish > cleaning Mr. Malfoy's shoes. Apparently Mr. Malfoy had set out in > a great hurry, for not only were his shoes half-polished, but his > usually sleek hair was disheveled. Ignoring the elf bobbing > apologetically around his ankles, he fixed his cold eyes upon > Dumbledore. > > 'So!' he said 'You've come back. The governors suspended you, but > you still saw fit to return to Hogwarts.'" > > The newer edition completely eliminates the paragraph about Dobby > polishing Mr. Malfoy's shoes and when Mr. Malfoy speaks, it > reads: "'So!' said Lucius Malfoy, his cold eyes fixed on > Dumbledore. 'You've come back. The governors suspended you, but > you still saw fit to return to Hogwarts.'" Me again: This change is *not* noted on the page in the Lexicon which displays differences between the US and UK editions. I'm sure it's possible that it could have been missed, but given the attention to detail on this page and the fact that even extremely small changes were noted, I'm doubtful that the Lexicon is in error here. Which leaves (IMO) two other possible explanations of what happened: (1) *Neither* the original US nor the original UK hardback editions included this scene, and it was subsequently added into the US paperback edition but not into the UK paperback edition; or (2) *Both* the original US and original UK hardback editions included this scene, and it was subsequently deleted from the UK paperback edition but kept in the US paperback edition. Since I have neither the US or UK original hardback editions, I can't offer a resolution - is there anyone out there who has these editions who can help? Marcus suggested that it could have been dropped out as a mistake, and I know from painful experience that it's indeed possible to drop entire sections from a document! However, I don't think that's the case here, given the way Lucius' words are rewritten (to include a reference to his name, and to reference his cold eyes). ~Phyllis who gives Eloise a hug back across cyberspace, and wants to let her know that I greatly enjoy hearing her British perspective on the Potterverse :-) From bdmorrp at budget.state.ny.us Fri Sep 6 14:56:02 2002 From: bdmorrp at budget.state.ny.us (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 14:56:02 -0000 Subject: Change in Hagrid's Disposition of Sirius' Motorbike (WAS: UK CoS Changes) In-Reply-To: <8c.1db83ab1.2aa9b781@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43701 bboy_mn wrote: > It has come to light that the American version of PS/SS has Hagrid > saying that he has to get the giant motorcycle BACK to Sirius, then > we find out later, it was originally written to say, he had to get > the motorcycle put away. Obviously, a change by an American copy > editor who hadn't read the later books, and didn't realize he was > changing something significant and Eloise responded: > I don't think you can blame the US editors for this one. I have an > older UK copy (first ed paperback) which similarly says that Hagrid > is intending to return the bike to Sirius, as does Phyllis's US > copy, so the Lexicon was correct: it's not a 'translation' issue. Now me: I didn't have the books with me when I originally posted on this issue, so here are the exact wording changes: My US paperback edition of SS (Chapter 1, pg. 16): Hagrid says "I'll be takin' Sirius his bike back." The UK adult version paperback edition of PS I just bought (Chapter 1, pg. 17): Hagrid says "I'd best get this bike away." As Eloise says, this is a change even from the original UK paperback edition. While I can't tell when the edition of PS I have was published (it just says "this edition first published in 1998"), it must have been published *after* the release of GoF, as there is a list in the front of "titles available in the Harry Potter series" and it lists all 4 books. In addition, it also includes the following statement: "Harry Potter, names, characters and related indicia are copyright and trademark Warner Bros., 2000tm." I bought a box set, and the copies of CoS and PoA are not as new - they don't have the Warner Bros. reference and the list of titles available stops with PoA. Even with this change, it's still a bit messy. When Dumbledore asks Hagrid where he got the bike, Hagrid says he "borrowed it...Sirius Black lent it to me" (actually, I just noticed that the UK edition leaves out the "to", so it reads awkwardly "Black lent it me."). But then at the Three Broomsticks in PoA, Hagrid says Black "told me ter take his motorbike ter get Harry there. 'I won' need it any more,' he says...He loved that motorbike, what was he givin' it ter me for?" (SS, Ch. 10, p. 207; PS, Ch. 10, p. 154). So it's borrowed in SS/PS but given in PoA. I'm wondering if JKR initially planned to have someone other than Sirius be the original secret-keeper for the Potters (Lupin, perhaps?). This would explain the problems with the references to the bike in PS/SS, and would also explain why Dumbledore shows no surprise when Hagrid tells him in PS/SS that he borrowed the bike from Sirius (at this point, Dumbledore still thinks Sirius was the Potters' secret-keeper, so wouldn't he have had been startled that Hagrid used a betrayer's bike to transport Harry to Privet Dr.?). I also find it perplexing that the Potters didn't use Dumbledore as their secret-keeper. If they were concerned about a spy in their midst, why not switch from Sirius to Dumbledore? Particularly if Dumbledore was the only wizard Voldemort ever feared? It makes me wonder if there was some concern about Dumbledore being ever-so evil (heaven forbid!). ~Phyllis From crussell at arkansas.net Fri Sep 6 15:13:57 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 15:13:57 -0000 Subject: Destiny, Truth In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020905161847.023ea410@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43702 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Carol Bainbridge wrote: I also think that manipulation indicates that you are attempting to get > someone to do something that you really don't believe is the right > thing. The manipulator also gets something > out of the manipulation, so it's a rather selfish act. IMO, there can be no doubt of the obvious affection that has been shown to Harry-through Dumbledore and Hagrid - especially Hagrid who demonstrated such enormous love in his tender care of baby Harry. I will not accept that this expression of love and concern was merely a means to an end-that Harry is merely viewed as a "secret weapon" that must be protected. Can there be any more touching scene than the one in which Sirius offers his guardianship/home to Harry -and Harry accepts eagerly-which in turn brings so much happiness to Sirius? I re-read this scene again last night-and it touched me just as deeply as when I read it the first time (PoA is my favorite book). IMO, there is no manipulation- when genuine love and affection are the motivating factors. bugaloo37-who has already said most of this before-but never likes to miss an opportunity to praise Sirius ( I simply adore him!!) From mdemeran at hotmail.com Fri Sep 6 15:25:16 2002 From: mdemeran at hotmail.com (Meg Demeranville) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 10:25:16 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dobby Shoe Cleaning Paragraph Elimination (WAS: Changes in UK Edition of CoS) References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43703 Phyllis asked : This change is *not* noted on the page in the Lexicon which displays differences between the US and UK editions. I'm sure it's possible that it could have been missed, but given the attention to detail on this page and the fact that even extremely small changes were noted, I'm doubtful that the Lexicon is in error here. Which leaves (IMO) two other possible explanations of what happened: (1) *Neither* the original US nor the original UK hardback editions included this scene, and it was subsequently added into the US paperback edition but not into the UK paperback edition; or (2) *Both* the original US and original UK hardback editions included this scene, and it was subsequently deleted from the UK paperback edition but kept in the US paperback edition. Since I have neither the US or UK original hardback editions, I can't offer a resolution - is there anyone out there who has these editions who can help? Me: Since I have the US hardback, I looked it up. The original whole paragraph about Dobby and Lucious is in my edition of the book. I don't have the UK editions (yet) so I can't tell if they are in there. Anyone else have the original UK hardbacks? Meg (who aced her quiz this morning and now has to go to Gross Anatomy lab, fun stuff) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Fri Sep 6 15:27:43 2002 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milztoday) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 15:27:43 -0000 Subject: Dobby Shoe Cleaning Paragraph Elimination (WAS: Changes in UK Edition of CoS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43704 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: > Since I have neither the US or UK original hardback editions, I can't > offer a resolution - is there anyone out there who has these editions > who can help? > The US hardcover version HAS the shoe-polishing scene. I'll have the check the US paperback version, but I recall it was in there too. I think the changes may coincide with the upcoming movie. Afterall, the other movie had some alterations. I suspect the same of this movie and the film versions of PoA and GoF. More sinister speculations: the delay in the fifth book may be due to making it easier to adapt from text to movie. Milz From brian042 at hotmail.com Fri Sep 6 15:32:39 2002 From: brian042 at hotmail.com (bkb042) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 15:32:39 -0000 Subject: Divination is an elective, right? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43705 2nd year students get to choose some classes to be added to their 3rd year schedules, Divination being one of those options. After an admittedly cursory search of the archives, I found no glaring reference to what I'm about to bring up. So here it goes. How is it that at least 80% of Gryffindors in Harry's year end up in Divination? In PoA (US, hb, pp. 102-108) Harry, Ron, Dean, Neville, Seamus, Hermione, Lavender, and Parvati are mentioned. If this initial popularity is consistant throughout the other houses, I think that Trelawny's workload is almost as bad as Snape's appears to be. bkb042 From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Fri Sep 6 15:41:32 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb P) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 08:41:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Change in Hagrid's Disposition of Sirius' Motorbike (WAS: UK CoS Changes) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020906154132.52577.qmail@web13001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43706 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: > When Dumbledore asks Hagrid where he got the bike, Hagrid says > he "borrowed it...Sirius Black lent it to me" (actually, I just > noticed that the UK edition leaves out the "to", so it reads > awkwardly "Black lent it me."). LOL! You have to remember that JKR wrote the books in British, not 'Merican. The "to" was ADDED to the American version. It's not awkward without it; it's just British. I wish this hadn't been changed for the US editions, though, as it's dialogue, and Hagrid's dialogue in particular, which is in dialect, so changes really don't make sense, if we're really to hear how he speaks in our heads. > But then at the Three Broomsticks in PoA, Hagrid says Black "told > me ter take his motorbike ter get Harry there. 'I won' need it > any more,' he says...He loved that motorbike, what was he givin' > it ter me for?" > (SS, Ch. 10, p. 207; PS, Ch. 10, p. 154). So it's borrowed in > SS/PS but given in PoA. Actually, it's both in PS, since he still says "borrowed it," and, in the newer UK version (which I'm looking at right now) he says, "I'd best get this bike away." > I'm wondering if JKR initially planned to have someone other than > Sirius be the original secret-keeper for the Potters (Lupin, > perhaps?). This would explain the problems with the references to > the bike in PS/SS, and would also explain why Dumbledore shows no > surprise when Hagrid tells him in PS/SS that he borrowed the bike > from Sirius (at this point, Dumbledore still thinks Sirius was the > Potters' secret-keeper, so wouldn't he have had been startled that > Hagrid used a betrayer's bike to transport Harry to Privet Dr.?). I think it's possible that JKR didn't even have the Secret Keeper concept in her mind at all when she wrote PS. It would have been quite possible for her to have mapped out the books with the intention of Sirius Black being held responsible, in the wizarding world, for the Potters' deaths, just by dint of having been their friend. I believe she DID have in mind Sirius thinking Peter was the spy, and his going to prison for supposedly killing Peter and then escaping and being an unseen threat all during PoA before we find out he's one of the good guys. I think this is why Sirius' name is mentioned very early in the first book (just as Nicolas Flame's name is mentioned early). JKR gives us these throwaway lines, and they turn out to be important later. As you noted, Dumbledore didn't bat an eye at Hagrid's mention of Sirius. If JKR had had the Secret Keeper concept in mind at the beginning of the series--which I believe she came up with later--Dumbledore SHOULD have been alarmed about Hagrid mentioning him. I believe you've hit on something here. The change from Hagrid returning the bike to something that is more in line with PoA (Sirius saying he wouldn't need it any more) really says to me that she hadn't thought about the Secret Keeper concept at that early time. She likely had a general idea of someone betraying the Potters (probably Peter) but the details of that betrayal were perhaps less well-developed than other aspects of the story. (Or, another possibility, she didn't like her first ideas and changed her mind.) > I also find it perplexing that the Potters didn't use Dumbledore > as their secret-keeper. If they were concerned about a spy in > their midst, why not switch from Sirius to Dumbledore? > Particularly if Dumbledore was the only wizard Voldemort ever > feared? It makes me wonder if there was some concern about > Dumbledore being ever-so evil (heaven forbid!). Well, it's possible that Dumbledore, in a battle with Voldemort, would opt to sacrifice himself, so that would mean the secret of the Potters' location would die with him and no one would ever be able to find them (unless the spell would be broken with the death of the Secret Keeper, another bad possibility). --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From alexpie at aol.com Fri Sep 6 15:57:54 2002 From: alexpie at aol.com (alexpie at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 11:57:54 EDT Subject: Copy Editors Message-ID: <1be.d2055dc.2aaa2a82@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43707 >I REALLY REALLY don't like this, REALLY. I think it is fine for copy >editors (or whatever they are called) to correct minor errors, but by >no means whatsoever should they be rewriting the book, and certainly >shouldn't be throwing out entire paragraphs. A copy editor makes no changes (whether minor or substantive) without them being okayed by the author. I've been a copy editor for more years than I care to count, and the process is: copy edit, then back to the author, then into production. Always. We are also usually told how light or heavy the edit needs to be and, yes, that sometimes involves a great deal of rewriting (not all authors can write, you know).l I'm a bit red with rage at the moment (whatever we are called?) at the implication that copy editors are some sort of grindylows of publishing. If changes were made, JKR signed off on them. Ba From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Fri Sep 6 16:20:50 2002 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 16:20:50 -0000 Subject: Dobby Shoe Cleaning Paragraph Elimination In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43708 Phyllis wrote, concerning the differences between recent COS editions: > (1) *Neither* the original US nor the original UK hardback editions > included this scene, and it was subsequently added into the US > paperback edition but not into the UK paperback edition; or > > (2) *Both* the original US and original UK hardback editions included > this scene, and it was subsequently deleted from the UK paperback > edition but kept in the US paperback edition. > > Since I have neither the US or UK original hardback editions, I can't > offer a resolution - is there anyone out there who has these editions > who can help? I have a hardback British copy of COS purchased January 1999 (so probably not first edition but unlikely to have changed). It seems to be the same as the later paperback edition cited by Eloise. Without knowing which editions Edward Olson used, it's hard to say what the list of differences in the Lexicon means for this debate. The deleted text (if indeed deleted rather than inserted) does provide an answer to something that always puzzled me - why did Malfoy bring Dobby to the meeting? I don't believe a shoe cleaning rag constitutes 'clothing' within the meaning of the act: after all, the reason the elves wear pillow cases, tea cosies etc is precisely because these items are *not* clothing and therefore safe from the master's point of view to hand over to an elf. David From lacorelli at hotmail.com Fri Sep 6 17:42:26 2002 From: lacorelli at hotmail.com (TL) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 09:42:26 -0800 Subject: DADA instructors References: <1031299489.3074.19755.m10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43709 First let me say, that I really enjoy the discussions here; they make me consider ideas and theories, I had never even thought of before. About the relative importance of DADA in the WW and the merits of the instructors one thing has struck me as curious: with the exception of Mad-Eye Moody, all of them have been rather young. From what I gathered in PS, before his encounter with Voldemort, Quirrell was probably an adequate teacher whose experience had all been theoretical and was consequently overwhelmed when he actually came face to face with the personification of the Dark Arts. Lockhart, we all know, stole his "experience" from others and got the job apparently because there were no other takers. Lupin, the first competent one we've seen, is still young (in his 30s at least), and available because he has difficulty holding a job. I seem to be taking a while to get to the point, but here it is. Why aren't there any seasoned DADA teachers? Were most who could have taught killed or driven mad during the war with Voldemort? Do they feel that the DADA curriculum that the board of governors (?) would approve is a joke? Are they too busy seeking out Dark Wizards? I tend to agree with those who think the WW has gotten too complacent in far to short a time about the need for DADA instruction (I also am firmly in the camp that says the Snape wouldn't want the job and that Potions Masters are hard to come by.) at least if Fudge's determined disbelief in Voldemort's return is to be believed. Just some ideas and questions I wanted to throw out. I'm sorry if this is long, or if I'm just covering someone else's ground. I'm new around here. Tamee From crussell at arkansas.net Fri Sep 6 18:45:28 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 18:45:28 -0000 Subject: DADA instructors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43710 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "TL" wrote: Why aren't > there any seasoned DADA teachers? Were most who could have taught killed or > driven mad during the war with Voldemort? Do they feel that the DADA > curriculum that the board of governors (?) would approve is a joke? Are > they too busy seeking out Dark Wizards? I tend to agree with those who > think the WW has gotten too complacent in far to short a time about the need > for DADA instruction > > Tamee I tend to agree with the third reason you gave. IMO, a lot of the wizards outside of Hogwarts probably agree with Fudge and simply do not want to acknowledge that Voldemort could return (of course, by the end of GoF, we the readers know that he has). At this point, we really do not know the numbers that agree with Dumbledore- in other words, those who believe that being prepared is the best prevention against total anihilation-or the ones who agree with Fudge and want to keep their heads in the sand. Any teacher of DADA would have to deal with this issue. In other words, maybe taking this teaching position would be considered by some not to be "politically correct." IMO, it's foolish to believe that politics do not play a part in the WW-the same as everywhere else. After all, we are told by Molly Weasley that her husband has not advanced in the MoM because of his obvious fascination and affection for Muggles-this is just one example of how politics are present in the WW. IMO, this world created by JKR has its problems -different of course from the problems of the Muggle world-but similar in the ways that its inhabitants deal with these problems. IMO,in both worlds, there are those who are complacent and those who choose to act. bugaloo37 From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Fri Sep 6 19:03:22 2002 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 12:03:22 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Convenient Plot Devices In-Reply-To: <20020905230535.16124.qmail@web10702.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20020905230535.16124.qmail@web10702.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1595007790.20020906120322@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43711 Thursday, September 5, 2002, 4:05:35 PM, manic wrote: m> There's a spell or device for everything. Need to know m> someone's innermost thoughts? look into their pensive. Need a few more m> hours, use a time turner. Want to sneak around? Don't worry, there's an m> invisibility cloak. Need to do something? Create a potion or spell. I m> feel like Chuck Jones might have felt when giving the Wile E. something m> to do, need a tool? Simply place a 'ous' or something after it to give m> the thing a vaguely Latin feel and go with it. I have just one question to ask: Have you ever read an Oz book? :) Here's how _GoF_ would have ended if it had been an Oz book: Glinda looked in her Book of Records, and read that Voldemeort had just kidnapped Harry and was using him to rebirth himself. So in her swan-drawn chariot, which is much faster than apparating, she went to the Emerald City Palace and informed Ozma. Ozma looked in the Magic Picture and saw Harry helplessly tied to a tombstone and being taunted by the newly reborn Voldemort, with his faithful Death Eaters looking on appreciatively. Quickly she called in her maid Jellia Jamb and commanded her to fetch her Magic Belt. Jellia, mumbling something or other about serving as a mere go-fer and not having a single funny line in years, ambled out and a minute later returned with the Magic Belt. Ozma grabbed the Belt, strapped it to her waist and cried, "Send me to the Riddle graveyard!" And in a twinkling she was. Seeing Harry about to duel with Voldy and probably die, Ozma got out the Magic Wishing Necklace she got from Skamparoo, put it around her neck and said, "I wish Harry to be returned to Hogwarts!" and he was gone, without the aid of a Portkey. "Ozma! What the hell are you doing here, destroying my big chance to be Ever-So-Evil?!" Voldy screamed with rage, and turning to his Death Eaters he cried, "Seize her, you fools!" But before a single DE could move, Ozma whispered a command to the Magic Belt: "Turn all the DE's into acorns, and turn Voldemort into a cactus!" And it was done. And Cactus!Voldemort remains on display in Ozma's Palace to this day. Don't talk to me about Convenient Plot Devices. :) -- Dave From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Fri Sep 6 19:14:35 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (grey_wolf_c) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 19:14:35 -0000 Subject: Divination is an elective, right? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43712 Brian wrote: > 2nd year students get to choose some classes to be added to their > 3rd year schedules, Divination being one of those options. After an > admittedly cursory search of the archives, I found no glaring > reference to what I'm about to bring up. So here it goes. > > How is it that at least 80% of Gryffindors in Harry's year end up in > Divination? In PoA (US, hb, pp. 102-108) Harry, Ron, Dean, Neville, > Seamus, Hermione, Lavender, and Parvati are mentioned. If this > initial popularity is consistant throughout the other houses, I > think that Trelawny's workload is almost as bad as Snape's appears > to be. > > > bkb042 I've been checking that first adivination class, and it seems that the only ones there are from Gryffindor, and that the two nameless girls aren't there (at least they don't say anything or aren't mentioned, although I admit that's not a real point in their favour, since they never talk and only one they participate). However, it does give weight to the possibility that they are in another class, making this an elective (besides, even if they were, it's still be an elective. In my first year of university, Everyone in my class was in English, since it was the *only* elective. So we all elected it. Go figure. I didn't have to study much, at least). Now, why did (almost) all gryffindors choose this one? Ron and Harry we know: they selected them at random, and the same so at least they could be toghether. Neville, Dean and Seamus did the same, IIRC (although I'd think that some convinient rumour of the class being easier than, say, arithmancy, might have helped). Parvati and Lavender we see are predisposed. And Hermione, of course, chose ALL the electives, so that would include this one. So there you go, it isn't that strange. If they asked the twins, and they told them that the easiest was divination, it would've certainly helped. At least, it does in my university. Oh, and don't worry about Trelwaney's workload: as far as we know, her divination classes are only one hour a week, and, even if it's to each house of the year separately, she only teaches it form second year upwards. That means: 6 years * 4 groups/year * 1 hour/group?week = 24 hours/week. Doesn't look stressing to me, to tell the truth. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf, who's really getting the hang of calculating hours spent on teaching in Hogwarts. From kaityf at jorsm.com Fri Sep 6 18:30:11 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 13:30:11 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "Freedom is slavery..." In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020905170438.023000e0@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020906130833.040b6dd0@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> No: HPFGUIDX 43713 >Carol re: house-elves: > > > Here's my thinking on this: if one is a slave, they don't have to > > think about what to do. They are simply told. They don't need > > to agonize over any moral decisions (generally speaking). > > Therefore, in a sense they are free. On the other hand, if one > > is free, they have to constantly make decisions and figure out > > what to do. Amy Z replied: >I think this fits very well with Imperius, which is described as a >blissful state. No decisions, no worries, physical pains disappear, >one can even forget that one is about to be murdered . . . She could >have written the curse as something that hurts, but in fact it feels >wonderful; it only hurts if you try to fight it off. It's thinking >for oneself that's hard. Carol (me) again: That's a really good point. It might be a stretch, but I can see a connection to this and the idea of knowledge/book learning in the books. Book learning alone doesn't necessarily lead to independent thinking. It's not until one thinks about that learning that it becomes true knowledge, knowledge that can lead to independent thought and "practical" use. For example, Quirrell was fine before he went out into the world to get a bit of experience. He had only book learning, and since one can know everything in a book and still not be much of a thinking (just a good memorizer), perhaps that is what led him to come under V's influence. I hope I'm making sense. I don't think I'm explaining this well. Lockhart, too, fits in here since he doesn't seem to have done much independent thinking. Hermione, on the other, hand, not only has book learning, but she thinks about what she learns. It's the thinking about it that makes her knowledge useful to the trio. One can blindly accept what one learns or one can question it and think independently. The trio often questions what they are learning, particularly Hermione. While Trelawny's class seems to be very popular, the trio considers it rubbish. Hermione, the quintessential student, refuses to participate any longer in the class. She clearly does not accept all learning at face value, but independently evaluates it. Amy Z again: >This theme also comes up in Dumbledore's all-too-true warning that >what is easy is not always what is right. JKR knows that freedom >from moral decisions is a very tempting state of being, and it looks >to me as if she's very interested in exploring what makes it possible >for some people to shun it and take responsibility (it's in the eyes, >that's where you see it). I remember this realization being a very >important part of my adolescence, so I'm delighted to think of >adolescents discovering it through HP. I agree. It is difficult to make these kinds of decisions. The fact that this theme comes up in more than one place in more than one way makes me think that the concept of choice is going to be a very important one in the denouement of the story. Amy Z: >House-elves are a different take on the issue, but I agree, they're >another kind of illustration of the fact that freedom hurts--in their >case, because their enslavement literally requires them to punish >themselves for free acts. I hadn't thought about that aspect, but you're right. All of this helps me make more sense of the whole house-elf business in the books. It seemed an awfully elaborate subplot to have just stuck in the books for plot development alone. The plot could have been advanced with house-elves who were not quite so enslaved or without Hermione and her S.P.E.W. (an interesting choice for an acronym. I wonder what JKR was trying to tell us with that one!) Thanks for the additional food for thought. Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Fri Sep 6 19:11:16 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (CHRISTOPHER NUTTALL) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 20:11:16 +0100 Subject: The Death Eater Mystery Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43714 Hi I was re-reading GOF and my attention was caught by a line of Voldemort's when he discusses six missing death eaters. Three dead, one too cowardly to return, one who has left him forever and one who is his most faithful servent. Most people assume that they are Karakoff, Snape and Crouch Jnr, but I wonder. If Snape is to spy for Dunbledore, he MUST go to the Death Eater meeting, but will Voldemort believe him? Dumbledore told the whole WW that Snape had been a spy, Voldemort is unlikely to welcome him back with open arms. Indeed, we might expect him to start thr GOF proceedings by killing snape. If Snape was not the one who has left him, who was he? Will he play a part in future events? Thoughts? Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Sep 6 19:25:46 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (bboy_mn) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 19:25:46 -0000 Subject: Newer UK Edition of CoS Has Three Changes From Original Edition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43715 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "doffy99" wrote: > erisedstraeh2002 wrote: > > (3) In Chapter 18 of the original edition, when Lucius Malfoy and > > Dobby appear in Professor McGonagall's office, it reads: "The elf > > was carrying a stained rag with which he was attempting to finish > > cleaning Mr. Malfoy's shoes. Apparently Mr. Malfoy had set out in > > a great hurry, for not only were his shoes half-polished, but his > > usually sleek hair was disheveled. Ignoring the elf bobbing > > apologetically around his ankles, he fixed his cold eyes upon > > Dumbledore. > > > > 'So!' he said 'You've come back. The governors suspended you, > > but you still saw fit to return to Hogwarts.'" > > > > The newer edition completely eliminates the paragraph about Dobby > > polishing Mr. Malfoy's shoes and when Mr. Malfoy speaks, it > > reads: "'So!' said Lucius Malfoy, his cold eyes fixed on > > Dumbledore. 'You've come back. The governors suspended you, > > but you still saw fit to return to Hogwarts.'" > > > > This change has me baffled - why would Dobby be with Lucius if > > Dobby wasn't in the middle of performing a menial task such as > > shoe-polishing? Why leave this out? > > > > In addition, the newer edition also has Dumbledore telling Harry > > that Voldemort is the last remaining *descendant* of Slytherin > > (Ch. 18), but since we all know that JKR has already owned up to > > that error, I'm just mentioning it as an aside. > > > > I'll keep you posted as I make my way through PoA! > > > > ~Phyllis > Jef (doffy99) Wrote: > ME, MYself And I > > There is one other explanation why this might have been edited. > Perhaps it's because there's a flaw in the idea. DOBBY has a RAG! Do > you see it? IF a Sock can set a house elf free and normally a house > elf would wear a tea towel or an old pillowcase. Wouldn't/couldn't > giving Dobby a rag to polish shoes with, couldn't that be seen as > giving him a piece of clothing? Wouldn't just about ANY piece of > fabric serve this purpose? It says "CLOTHES," does that mean it has > to be HUMAN clothes? A house elf wears a tea towel or a pillowcase as > clothing, wouldn't a rag or cloth fit the bill? I'm just guessing. > personally, I like the paragraph in there. I think it makes the story > flow better. Like others have said, it explains why Dobby is there. > It's something that really should be explained. > > -Jeff bboy_mn adds: I think we get into splitting hairs over the definition of 'give'. To be given, it must be presented by his Master, not simple an article of cloth or clothing owned by his Master. Dobby may have simply opened the cabinet where the shoe polish was keep, took the polish and polishing rag, and started polishing Malfoy's boots. In that case, the rag was never given. The tea towel and the pillowcase are a little hard to explain, but it's possible that over their lifetimes, and elves serve a single house, in most cases, for a lifetime, in fact, for generations, that they collect discarded articles that can be used for elf clothes. So, over time, as the Master's family throw away old towels and pillowcases, the elves collect them from the trash and save them. These are not directly presented by their Master. Another possibilty regarding the towels and pillowcases is that they are not truly articles of clothing. To be freed, an elf must be presented with clothes; perhaps, a towel does not qualify as clothes. Generally, we would never view a towel as an article of clothing. If we look at Hogwarts, the elves don't wear filthy worn out pillowcases, they wear nice clean towels with a Hogwarts emblem on it. It's possible that these towels are simple available and the elves use them, or like I said before, while they are used as clothes by the elves, they are not truly articles of clothing. As to the 'presenting of clothes', if Malfoy took a pair of socks, and said 'clean my socks' and handed them to Dobby, that would be an article of clothing presented. If Malfoy threw the socks on the floor, and said 'Dobby, clean my socks', that would not be clothing presented to the elf. Just some thoughts. bboy_mn From crussell at arkansas.net Fri Sep 6 20:00:41 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 20:00:41 -0000 Subject: "Freedom is slavery..." In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020906130833.040b6dd0@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43716 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Carol Bainbridge wrote: > > One can blindly accept what one learns > or one can question it and think independently. I completely agree. Choices, choices, Choices- this is most definitely a theme of the series-if not the central theme. To think independantly- what a great lesson to teach to children via the HP series. When I was reading the above statement- I could not help but recall the scene in the movie "Dead Poet's Society", when at the end of the movie, the students are given a choice as to whether or not to stand up for the truth ( literally-standing on the desk). Seen from the departing teacher's perspective-we see who has stood and who has remained seated. Something tells us that this is reflective of the way these students will approach their future lives. To put it back in a HP perspective, tough decisions are a part of living. Harry has already had to make several- with his own safety and the safety of others- usually on the line. To think independantly- to be able to draw on your own strength-to be able to put to use all that you are- what you know, what you feel-allows you to be able to resist the inclination to just go along. Those who think for themselve cannot be easily swayed. In other words, Voldemort cannot just come along and sweep them up like a dustbroom. What a fantastic thought!!- Harry is not a helpless puppet and neither is any other person who stays true to himself and what he believes to be true. bugaloo37-who apologizes for referencing a movie-but I just think it applied to the point so well. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Sep 6 20:05:36 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (bboy_mn) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 20:05:36 -0000 Subject: Other schools, the Lake, Dumbledore and the Truth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43717 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "doffy99" wrote: > > I said in an earlier post: > > Other schools, evidence for or against > > Jeff said: > > >Neville states: > > >"And you should have seen their faces when I got in here -- they > > >thought I might not be magic enough to come, you see. Great Uncle > > >Algie was so pleased he bought me my toad." > > > > >The key words here are "When I got in here." If there was the > > >possibility that he may not get into Hogwart's then there must be > > >other schools. > > > Merimom3 said: > > I disagree. Saying you didn't "get in" does not imply there > > were other places to get into. You could say you didn't get > > in to a club or a college, and mean that therefore you aren't > > in any club or college. It doesn't help us either way, I'm > > afraid. > Jeff (doffy99): > ME again. > > Objection noted. :) I disagree. > > I think everyone will agree that anyone with magical powers, > especially a young person with magical powers, will need training of > some sort. It could come from parents granted, but would you want to > trust someone with a weapon like Magic to be trained by an amatuer or > a nitwit? I wouldn't. I would want them trained to at least control > their magic. Think about the things Harry did before he knew he was a > wizard. Making the glass disappear from the Boa Constrictors cage, > there were others I can't think of right now. Imagine dozens, if not > hundreds or even thousands, of people running around, untrained or > trained by an amatuer or a nitwit, in Magic. They would be dangerous. > This could explain the low Wizard population in England though. :) > > A wizard, any wizard, needs training of some sort. If for no other > reason than to learn to control his/her powers. > > A lot of it is my opinion, but it is logical. > > -Jeff bboy_mn adds: First, regarding Merimom3 statement that 'get in' doesn't imply other places. While Jeff can certainly speak for himself, I speculate the the keywords in Jeff's original statement was not 'get in' but 'in here'. To get in 'here' implies that there could also be a get in 'there', meaning some other place that can be gotten into, and thereby implying other schools. Schools in general- (Just some rambling thoughts) I still like the model I proposed in another post, where the higher education system is broken into three parts; 3 year, 5 year, and 7 years programs. Using our modern world as a reference, 3 years training is like finishing junior high (8 yrs of school in the US) and the minimum to get by in the modern wizard world, 5 years is the equivalent of high school (12 yrs in the US). At the end of the fifth year students take their OWLS. These are the first universally recognized test that certify as students skill level in the magic arts. This gives a student the documented qualifications he needs to go out in the world and say here's proof that I am this good, now give me a job. The seven year program which is certified by the universally recognised NEWT tests, is the equivalent of a Bachelor of Witchly and Wizardly Arts degree. Since Hogwarts is the only school in the UK that offers the seven year advanced training, continuing the same analogy, it is the only *College* of Wizardry and Witchcraft in the UK. So, using my model, there are other schools of magic (magician schools) that have the 3 and 5 year programs, but only this one (Hogwarts) college of Wizardly Arts (Wizard Schools). Only one school offering the advanced N.E.W.T. level training. Advancing that theory, with another question I posed, which was, 'What do you have to do to qualify as a Professor?'. Since Rowling has said the are no Universities of Wizardry, how does one qualify as a Professor. My theory is that you do research and advanced study on you own or in conjunction with a more advanced wizard, and present/publish scholarly paper which are review by the International Confederation of Wizards, or other national and international public and private organizations. If these paper demonstrate productive advanced research, or demonstrate and acvanced knowledge of magic, you may be granted the priviledge of calling yourself 'Dr. Harry Potter' (Doctorate of Wizardly Arts), and if you move on to very advanced work, you may be granted the priviledge of calling yourself 'Professor Harry Potter' (Philosopher Ph.D. of Wizardly Arts). That seems to be a pretty coherent and logical system of education, and not too far from the existing UK model of education. Of all the 'other school' theories of education, I think this one makes the most sense. While I may have been the first one to lay it out in this format, I certainly can't take credit for it; other people have been speculating on the same lines for ages. Or maybe, it's just the late night musings of an insomniac. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. bboy_mn From kaityf at jorsm.com Fri Sep 6 19:29:11 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 14:29:11 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Neville In-Reply-To: References: <002f01c2554f$64efa700$dc9ecdd1@istu757> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020906135707.040a5cb0@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> No: HPFGUIDX 43718 >Richelle wrote: > > >> Next topic, I really don't think Neville's under an imperious >curse. It just doesn't figure. How would one transfer control of an >Imperious? Especially while the one who supposedly put the curse on >is having his soul sucked out. << > >Melody: >Good point. What would happen if someone was under the imperious >curse and someone else also imperious cursed the same person without >knowledge that they were already under the curse with another wizard? > I would think it would not be possible. Me: Maybe something along the lines of bus transfers would work? Seriously, this raises some questions I hadn't thought about at all. Is there a generic version of the imperious curse? Something that would allow any and all dark wizards to do the controlling? I hadn't thought about it before, but just who was controlling all those wizards during V's time of power? Surely, V wasn't consciously controlling each and every one. Exactly what does it mean to be under the control of this curse? I had assumed that it meant the person doing the cursing was the one doing the conscious controlling and it certainly looks that way when Moody uses that curse on the spider. But now I wonder.... >One thing is for sure >though. If Neville has always been under imperious curse, then he >definately is not fighting it. But wasn't Harry the only one who was at all successful in fighting it? If I were a dark wizard, the person I'd pick first to put under my control (however that works) would be a little wizard like Neville. I'd bet Moody got an earful in the "teachers' lounge" about Neville's incompetence. That makes Neville a perfect choice as he'd be the one most likely to be unable to resist the curse. Even if Moody did not hear about Neville from other teachers, I'd bet Moody/Crouch could see that Neville wasn't the most secure of the bunch. For all I know, that magic eye of Moody's, which Crouch is using, can see more than physical things. And Moody/Crouch did take a good, long look into Neville's eyes, didn't he? (I seem to remember that.) The fact that Neville would have been singled out for this curse early on would make his potential role at the end of the series (possibly fighting off the curse at last) even more significant. (I can't believe we have to wait till 2003 for book 5 -- how long before we can answer all these other questions with book 7? Well, I should have lots more time to ponder the questions, as I'll undoubtedly be old enough to retire by then.) >Melody: >Watching the spider curses probably are emotional abuse on the >children but I think it is address in the chapter at the end with >Moody/Crouch's kind words to Neville and Potter. I wonder if those >kind words are Crouch's or Crouch's view of what Moody would do? >Wherer is that line? I really like CrouchJr.'s character so this >puzzles me. What if CrouchJr. followed with Voldemort to the Potters >that night and was there at the murders. That would make the scene >even more leathal. The very man that brought the downfall of these >two young boys lives was teaching them now the curses he used and then >comforting them afterwards. It is possible. Sorry I am really tired >and my mind wanders. Two thing about this: One, I agree with you about how lethal this scene becomes if one looks at it this way. I'd add something else that might make it more lethal yet. Moody/Crouch says that he and Dumbledore think that the kids are really old enough to learn about these curses and that Dumbledore has given him permission to teach them. However, do we *know* that Dumbledore has given his permission? We can assume that had he not, Moody/Crouch would have gotten into trouble for doing it, but we don't *know* that either. What if Moody/Crouch introduced the students to these curses for more devious reasons? I mean it does seem odd that this villain would truly want little witches and wizards to know how to protect themselves. There might be other reasons. For instance, he might want to know which ones are capable of resisting and which aren't, Harry in particular. It's a good idea in a battle/war to know your enemy. Another reason is to make sure that the younger generation knows exactly what it means to oppose Voldemort. After all, hearing about the curses isn't the same as seeing them in action. Seeing them in action must have a deeper emotional affect than just hearing about them. And we have evidence that this is true. Harry rethinks the scene of his parents death. Ron is intrigued. Hermione is outraged. Intellectual understanding just isn't the same as first-hand experience. Anyway, I think it is quite possible that Moody/Crouch illustrated those curses for his own reasons and pleasure. Second, how much comforting do we know Moody/Crouch has actually done? Sure, he asks Harry and Neville if they are all right, but that's not quite the same as comforting. As for comforting Neville with a nice cup of tea, how do we know what actually took place in Moody's office? No one else was there, to our knowledge, and we know nothing other than that Moody/Crouch gave Neville a book. Melody: >It really abused both Harry and Neville really, but I think Dumbledore >and Moody/Crouch thought it would help toughen them up a little by >showing them what they already know exists. Except that we only have Moody/Crouch's word that Dumbledore approved of this exercise. Everyone doesn't know what everyone else in doing in the different classes. Snape didn't know what Lupin was doing until he substituted for him in the DADA class. If students are happy, the don't complain and so word doesn't get out much. They were happy with Lupin. They're happy with Moody/Crouch too, so it's unlikely they'd complain and spill the beans. Melody: >Childhood memories are >often worse than the real deal, though I can not imagine torture and >death getting worse. It is like everyone not saying Voldemort's name. > All it does is promote fear and nothing else. If they started saying >his name, they would have to address the fear and start building >courage against it. Same with the curses here. By showing the curses >to the kids (teenagers), they now know what is so bad and what to >expect. Helps in reduce the anxiety. I would agree it that is the intent. However, as I said, what if Crouch's intention was to ultimately increase fear? That is, when the dark wizard's being to rise again in power, the mere mention of the curses should do a nice job of scaring those former students without having to actually use them. They would already know exactly what the effects are. Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Sep 6 20:36:43 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (bboy_mn) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 20:36:43 -0000 Subject: Copy Editors In-Reply-To: <1be.d2055dc.2aaa2a82@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43719 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., alexpie at a... wrote: bboy_mn said in the heat of the moment: > >I REALLY REALLY don't like this, REALLY. I think it is fine for > > copy editors (or whatever they are called) to correct minor > > errors, but by no means whatsoever should they be rewriting the > > book, and certainly shouldn't be throwing out entire paragraphs. Ba's (alexpie) scathing reply: > > A copy editor makes no changes (whether minor or substantive) > without them being okayed by the author. I've been a copy editor > for more years than I care to count, and the process is: copy edit, > then back to the author, then into production. Always. We are also > usually told how light or heavy the edit needs to be and, yes, that > sometimes involves a great deal of rewriting (not all authors can > write, you know). > > I'm a bit red with rage at the moment (whatever we are called?) at > the implication that copy editors are some sort of grindylows of > publishing. If changes were made, JKR signed off on them. > Ba bboy_mn, now ever so humbly responds: Let's say that I might have overstated myself in the heat of the moment. It's just that with so many discrepancies between so many different versions of the same book, I have to wonder whether people are REALLY following the rules that you so clearly laid out? When one version says Hagrid borrowed a motorcycle that he clearly says in another book, was given to him, and when one version says he's going to take it back to Sirius and another says (roughly) he is going to store it, that would seem to imple that if Rowling is reviewing all this, even she doesn't know what happening in the book. JKR knows her books to well for changes like this to slip past her. Given the significants of some of the changes, I have trouble believing JKR approved them. Can't prove it, but that's how I see it. I think one of the problems is that the US and the UK have different publishers, and they are having trouble keeping themselves coordinated. So while I'm sure you are 99% of Copy Editors (so that's really what they are called, huh?) do a fantastic job, my own personal private view is that somebody is falling down on the job with Rowling's books. Sorry, like I said, in the heat of the moment and as pointed out by other people, I certainly overstate by position in my original post. bboy_mn From speedygonzo242 at hotmail.com Fri Sep 6 20:38:53 2002 From: speedygonzo242 at hotmail.com (frankielee242) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 20:38:53 -0000 Subject: DADA instructors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43720 Tamee wrote: > Why aren't > > there any seasoned DADA teachers? Were most who could have taught > killed or > > driven mad during the war with Voldemort? Do they feel that the > DADA > > curriculum that the board of governors (?) would approve is a > joke? Are > > they too busy seeking out Dark Wizards? I tend to agree with those > who > > think the WW has gotten too complacent in far to short a time about > the need > > for DADA instruction > > > > bugaloo37 wrote: > I tend to agree with the third reason you gave. IMO, a lot of the > wizards outside of Hogwarts probably agree with Fudge and simply do > not want to acknowledge that Voldemort could return > (SNIP) In other words, maybe taking this teaching > position would be considered by some not to be "politically > correct." (SNIP) Here are my two cents-- If you combine Tamee and Bugaloo37's ideas about the political/future career ramifications of taking a job that the MoM, possibly the school board and most of the WW sees as either superfluous or something best taught in theory only, you wind up with a job that no one truly qualified for would want. I don't imagine that there's a waiting list of applicants to become Aurors either and the ones who have survived to retire (judging from Mad-Eye Moody's track record as referred to in GoF) are not exactly people who would be willing to work with kids. Many of us have theorized that the next DADA teacher will be female and have already submitted a list of potential candidates for the position. Therefore, I cast my vote for Neville's Gran as the next DADA teacher. She's old enough to not give a damn about what anyone else thinks, her son was killed by Voldemort's supporters the last time around and students giggling about her green dress, vulture adorned hat and red handbag are guaranteed to drive Snape berserk with rage. I can also see Neville's Gran admonishing McGonagall to wear longer skirts, telling Snape not to fidget at the dinner table and smacking Flitwick with her purse for flirting with her. Frankie, who could really use a bottle of Old Ogden's Firewiskey because she will YET AGAIN be redesigning a 16-page brochure that's already late for production. From kaityf at jorsm.com Fri Sep 6 20:03:41 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 15:03:41 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Death Eater Mystery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020906143535.03f35d90@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> No: HPFGUIDX 43721 Chris wrote: >I was re-reading GOF and my attention was caught by a line of Voldemort's >when he discusses six missing death eaters. Three dead, one too cowardly >to return, one who has left him forever and one who is his most faithful >servent. Most people assume that they are Karakoff, Snape and Crouch Jnr, >but I wonder. If Snape is to spy for Dunbledore, he MUST go to the Death >Eater meeting, but will Voldemort believe him? Dumbledore told the whole >WW that Snape had been a spy, Voldemort is unlikely to welcome him back >with open arms. Indeed, we might expect him to start thr GOF proceedings >by killing snape. That line caught my attention too and I've been wondering about it as well. I definitely pegged Karakoff as the one too cowardly to return, although I suppose he could be the one who left forever too. But these do puzzle me. If Crouch is considered the most faithful servant, then I have to wonder about the trial scene when he kept swearing that he had nothing to do with the DE's, unlike the pair who went willingly to Azkaban still shouting support for Voldemort. But then if it's not Crouch, why does Voldemort leave him out? He's certainly not the one who has left him forever or too cowardly to return. In any case, let's assume Crouch is the most faithful one and Karakoff is one of the others. Karakoff and the other DE are going to get punished by Voldemort. If Snape is the 3rd, he can't go sneaking back if Voldemort believes him to be anything other than most faithful. (And what about veritaserum? But that's a separate discussion.) However, we know that Snape was a DE and that he goes off to do something at the end of GoF, presumable to rejoin the DE's in some fashion. So what if Snape is actually the one that Voldemort believes to be the most faithful servant? We don't really know what Snape did or what the outcome was of his participation in Voldemort's downfall. Perhaps Snape was acting as a double agent of sorts, which would then make his known allegiance to Dumbledore a non-issue. In that case, though, Voldemort would really have to trust Snape in order to not use veritaserum on him or just kill him outright. Maybe the statement "left me forever" means something other than "permanently withdrew support." Maybe it's someone who does not come to meeting and has become a liability. That could make Crouch Jr. a possibility. Voldemort isn't terribly forgiving and allows less-than-totally-faithful followers to go on only when they are useful to him (i.e. Pettigrew). That could refer to Crouch Jr as well. He was not totally faithful as witnessed by his behavior at the trial, but he was useful. His usefulness, however, once he has gotten Harry to Voldemort, is over. I don't know. It's a stretch, I know, but I just can't believe that JKR is going to go with the obvious on this one. It's too like her to take us all by surprise and I'll bet this is going to be one area where we're going to be very surprised by the events. It's what makes her stories so deliciously exciting. Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Sep 6 20:24:51 2002 From: MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM (mitchbailey82) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 20:24:51 -0000 Subject: Wand types In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43722 OK I wrote: > Also another thing about Harry's wand's wood Holly - holly is an > evergreen tree - in fact I believe (might not be right about this) > that it is the only wand made out of an evergreen tree mentioned. Sorry I've found out a mistake with what I said Yew (voldemorts wand type) is also an evergreen tree (darn that ruins aone of my pet theories!!) Ok but whilst researching different wood types I've come up with a few more points: Holly (harrys wand's made out of this) As well as the christmas assosciations it is also apparently (according to the oxford encyclopedia) a plant surrounded with ancient suppersition - now I wonder what supperstitions? (I can't seem to find out) Mahogany: (James) Part of a family/ group of trees known as the Tree of Heaven... Now it gets interesting... YEW (Voldemort): It is often found growing near churches graveyards and it represents eternal life and the cycle of life and death in pagan religions. Magic wands were traditionally made from yew. The foliage and seeds of a Yew contain highly poisonous ackaloids that act to stop the heart of an animal so suddenly that no symptons are seen, the animal simply drops dead (avada kedavra anyone?) - I can't believe JKR didn't know about this before giving Voldemort this type of wood for his wand the comparisons are obvious -the quest for enternal life, - the poison and the why it can kill. "mitchbailey" From hp_fan16 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 6 20:28:57 2002 From: hp_fan16 at yahoo.com (hp_fan16) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 20:28:57 -0000 Subject: DADA instructors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43723 Tamme theorized about the lack of seasoned teachers. A very true statement. The DADA class just seems to lack the luster that might appeal to older, experienced, qualified, teachers. Why this is? well that is really the question. My first thoughts are that, no one really cares/ believes in defending themselves, or their children, against the dark arts. I mean there must be some select few, but the WW as a whole doesn't seem to worry too much. (besides the 'he-who-must-not-be-named' stuff) Is there some logical reason for the lack of concern? I will admit that Snape might Choose potions anyways, and that Dumbledore was really good at transfiguration, and they both maybe prefer/red their positions. But if the WW demanding adequate defense classes, both would have been forced to teach, or they would have gotten other excellent teachers. Again, to me, it seems they just don't trouble themselves with those thoughts. I believe Tamme even mentioned that, most wizards, like Fudge, would rather just ignore the problem of 'dark wizards' or at least certain aspects. But again even in Dumbledore's day as a teacher, before the reign of terror, he, Dumbledore, was not a DADA teacher. This leads me to believe the WW has always treated DADA in this manner, and I still can't see *why.* again 'Is there some logical reason for the lack of concern?' ~also a side note:> a little while ago I mentioned Real!Moony being in book 5, and Betty asked where I found that. it took me a while to remember, but here: > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/book_op.html It was on the lexicon (knew I had read it, I've read that whole site) So it's a fact.<~ Gabrielle~ who gets the feeling that she's been repeating herself and other may be a bit annoyed~ =) From RootBeerFloat57 at aol.com Fri Sep 6 20:52:56 2002 From: RootBeerFloat57 at aol.com (RootBeerFloat57 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 16:52:56 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] DADA instructors Message-ID: <17.2df9b5c0.2aaa6fa8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43724 "I seem to be taking a while to get to the point, but here it is. Why aren't there any seasoned DADA teachers?" -Tamee I'd imagine a great deal of the people who are "seasoned" enough to be proper DADA teachers are either retired (most are probably somewhere between Moody's age and Dumbledore's age, and after fighting in the war are taking some well-deserved rest). "Do they feel that the DADA curriculum that the board of governors (?) would approve is a joke? Are they too busy seeking out Dark Wizards? I tend to agree with those who think the WW has gotten too complacent in far to short a time about the need for DADA instruction (I also am firmly in the camp that says the Snape wouldn't want the job and that Potions Masters are hard to come by.) at least if Fudge's determined disbelief in Voldemort's return is to be believed." -Tamee I agree. Most of the wizarding world (or those who define the curriculum and those in the Ministry) think that the chance is too small that Voldemort will come back. They've become apathetic, and don't see DADA as a very valuble subject anymore. *Because* it's nothing big to them, there's not a lot of effort put into creating the curriculum so that it's well rounded and "good." That also probably agitates some of those seasoned Aurors and teachers that were involved in the war. The lack of seriousness and respect to a subject that they see informs students of a very real threat. And then the rest would probably fall into the group of people who don't think that there's much of a chance of Voldemort returning or any sort of coup rising up and causing another war or something of that great magnitude. I do hope my response is clear and presentable. I'm semi-(notreally)new and much the lurker. -Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hp_fan16 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 6 20:45:23 2002 From: hp_fan16 at yahoo.com (hp_fan16) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 20:45:23 -0000 Subject: The Death Eater Mystery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43725 christopher_g_nuttall at h...> wrote: > Hi > > I was re-reading GOF and my attention was caught by a line of Voldemort's when he discusses six missing death eaters. Three dead, one too cowardly to return, one who has left him forever and one who is his most faithful servent. Most people assume that they are Karakoff, Snape and Crouch Jnr, but I wonder. If Snape is to spy for Dunbledore, he MUST go to the Death Eater meeting, but will Voldemort believe him? Dumbledore told the whole WW that Snape had been a spy, Voldemort is unlikely to welcome him back with open arms. Indeed, we might expect him to start thr GOF proceedings by killing snape. > > If Snape was not the one who has left him, who was he? Will he play a part in future events? > > Thoughts? > > Chris > Were you under the impression Snape's 'job' was to become a spy again? I wasn't at all. Admittedly I haven't any theories, but I was certain that Voldemort was referring to Snape, and that Snape, was out to do something, 'non-spy' related. Maybe he was going to Azkaban to consort with some DE who didn't know he was a spy, (not that they'd be much help) or perhaps he was recruiting past dark-wizards- gone-good, that were never DE, or part of V's inner circle. Really I have no clue. But was I alone, the only who was sure (before she came here at least) that she knew who the missing DE's were, and Snape was no longer a spy, but just a good guy? I don't have a clue. Gabrielle~ Who, when reading through the books the first time, thought she knew everything, and didn't have any questions, and now, since HPfGU, realizes, her 'perfect potter' world, is a lot more confusing, and is (sadly) slighltly flawed in certain ways. From kaityf at jorsm.com Fri Sep 6 20:46:07 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 15:46:07 -0500 Subject: Independent thinking (was "Freedom is slavery...") In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020906130833.040b6dd0@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020906152951.03fa3d80@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> No: HPFGUIDX 43726 bugaloo37 wrote: >I completely agree. Choices, choices, Choices- this is most >definitely a theme of the series-if not the central theme. >To think independantly- to be able to >draw on your own strength-to be able to put to use all that you are- >what you know, what you feel-allows you to be able to resist the >inclination to just go along. Those who think for themselve cannot >be easily swayed. In other words, Voldemort cannot just come along >and sweep them up like a dustbroom. What a fantastic thought!!- Harry >is not a helpless puppet and neither is any other person who stays >true to himself and what he believes to be true. I think you're on to something here. This would sure say a lot about Harry, his ability to fight the imperious curse, and the decisions he makes. It puts his rule-breaking behavior, or at least most of it, in a new light too. He doesn't break the rules simply because he's challenging them or thinks he can, as Snape sees it. He usually breaks the rules when he thinks it's necessary -- keeping Hagrid out of trouble by getting rid of Norbert, looking for information about Nicholas Flamel late at night because he thinks something is wrong. The choices Harry often has to make are often between too ethically correct ones -- i.e. following the rules versus being loyal to friends. Those are hard choices to make, unless one blindly follows the rules or cares nothing about them. For Harry, the choices often involve great personal risk as well as sacrifice (telling Cedric about the dragons, refusing to take the Cup in the Tri-wizard tournament). No wonder I love Harry so much. Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From drumforever at earthlink.net Fri Sep 6 21:41:00 2002 From: drumforever at earthlink.net (Betty Landers) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 17:41:00 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Convenient Plot Devices References: <20020906030344.15494.qmail@web13001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <015d01c255f3$2e58ca60$14f3b23f@bettysue> No: HPFGUIDX 43727 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barb P" To: Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 11:03 PM Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Convenient Plot Devices huge snip Barb: Conjuring a Patronus is "very advanced magic," according to Hermione (who, incidentally, isn't even very good at flying a broom, so one hopes she'll eventually learn to Apparate). Where is the cannon to suggest that Hermione isn't good on a broom? We've only seen Ron and Hermione on brooms once; in SS, Ch. 16, when they both did the oposite of what Harry told them to do according to my book US. ED. " "We've got to close in on it!" Harry called, not taking his eyes off the key with the damaged wing. "Ron, you come at it from above -- Hermione, stay below and stop it from going down and I'll try and catch it. Right, NOW!" Ron dived, Hermione rocketed upward, the key dodged them both, and Harry streaked after it; it sped toward the wall, Harry leaned forward and with a nasty, crunching noise, pinned it against the stone with one hand. Ron and Hermione's cheers echoed around the high chamber." I don't see an indication that either one is a bad flyer, and Hermione is only mentioned when they take off and when she and Ron start cheering after Harry catches the key. Also, back in Ch. 9, at their first flying lesson, none of them got to do anything while Harry was there because Harry ended up with Prof. McGonagall, so we don't know how that went. Then, there's the flying on buckbeak. Harry didn't like that, either, according to PoA ch. 6. " Without warning, twelve-foot wings flapped open on either side of Harry, he just had time to seize the hippogriff around the neck before he was soaring upward. It was nothing like a broomstick, and Harry knew which one he preferred; the hippogriff's wings beat uncomfortably on either side of him, catching him under his legs and making him feel he was about to be thrown off; the glossy feathers slipped under his fingers and he didn't dare get a stronger grip; instead of the smooth action of his Nimbus Two Thousand, he now felt himself rocking backward and forward as the hindquarters of the hippogriff rose and fell with its wings." What am I missing? Betty From oppen at cnsinternet.com Fri Sep 6 22:35:15 2002 From: oppen at cnsinternet.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 17:35:15 -0500 Subject: Expulsion from Hogwarts Message-ID: <018801c255f5$accf2400$0687aa41@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 43728 I was reading the stuff about the dangers of having untrained wizards around, and it struck me that this is one good reason why we haven't seen anybody *cough Crabbengoyle cough* expelled from Hogwarts, other than Hagrid, which was before Professor Dumbledore's tenure as Headmaster. An untrained, or semi-trained, wizard, even one without (legal access to) a wand, could cause a lot of havoc. Another reason why expulsion seems to be very, very rare could well be that an expelled student would be a _very_ easy mark for recruitment by Dark Wizard types. Particularly if the expellee feels that he or she was used unjustly (as Hagrid certainly was, although he did deserve _something_ for raising Aragog---I mean, my gods, a giant spider!) a Dark Wizard recruiter who offers a sympathetic ear, and a new wand and chance to continue training, (not to mention revenge!) could have a very easy time gaining a new recruit. Anybody brought up in the Wizard World might well feel that he or she had nowhere else to go---nobody will hire a Hogwarts expellee, and you apparently can't legally have a wand, so why not go all the way and join up? This may turn up in future books. From hp_fan16 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 6 21:30:45 2002 From: hp_fan16 at yahoo.com (hp_fan16) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 21:30:45 -0000 Subject: Moody's eye/polyjuice Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43729 ooh ooh ooh! I have a question! ok I know some have mentioned it before, but I'm still confused, and have so many questions. plus I hope this is a bit more specific than other threads, (though I'll understand if I'm cursed because it's not) so...How Could Crouch Jr. have used Moody's magical eye? Could anyone with out an eye, have stuck it in their socket and would it have worked? Or was that because of the polyjuice that it worked, and if so why? if ploy juice can do that could you also give predictions if you were a polyjuiced-Trelawney? or would you be turn into a werewolf at full moons if you were a polyjuiced-Lupin? And I have one more, how did Moody acquire that 'magical eye' anyways? did he invent it, find/buy it, was he born that way? and, sorry I lied, but one more, Will Moody's eye still work for him, even though it was taken out of his socket? I'm just confused about the whole eye/polyjuice thing. How far does polyjuice work, and when and why does the eye? Gabrielle~ who really seems to be writing a bit much lately~ From olivia at rocketbandit.com Fri Sep 6 23:02:26 2002 From: olivia at rocketbandit.com (Olivia) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 19:02:26 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Moody's eye/polyjuice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000801c255f9$77c7ddc0$9ca2e3d8@agstme.adelphia.net> No: HPFGUIDX 43730 Gabrielle asked: "Will Moody's eye still work for him, even though it was taken out of his socket?" I'm not sure about the rest of your questions, and I'm really curious about peoples' thoughts on this one but as far whether or Moody's Magical Eye can still work out of it socket, it appears as though it can. It falls out at one point during Goblet of Fire -- I'm pretty sure it's when he turns Malfoy into a ferret -- and either Crabbe or Goyle goes to pick it up and he says leave it, although he's facing the other direction. It's implied that the rolling eye on the floor was indeed still seeing. Olivia From saitaina at wizzards.net Fri Sep 6 12:37:26 2002 From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 05:37:26 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Moody's eye/polyjuice References: <000801c255f9$77c7ddc0$9ca2e3d8@agstme.adelphia.net> Message-ID: <00d801c255a2$28baf840$6f4e28d1@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 43731 Olivia wrote: < It falls out at one point during Goblet of Fire -- I'm pretty sure it's when he turns Malfoy into a ferret -- and either Crabbe or Goyle goes to pick it up and he says leave it, although he's facing the other direction. It's implied that the rolling eye on the floor was indeed still seeing.> Actually, Moody's eye never falls out. Crabbe and Goyle were trying to pick up Draco. >From Goblet of Fire, Chapter 13, page 205, American Hardcover Edition- There was a terrified silence in the entrance hall. Nobody but Moody was moving a muscle. Moody turned to look at Harry-at least, his normal eye was looking at Harry; the other one was POINTING INTO THE BACK OF HIS HEAD. "Did he get you?" Moody growled. His voice low and gravelly. "No," said Harry, "missed." "LEAVE IT!" Moody shouted. "Leave what?" Harry said, bewildered. "Not you-him!" Moody growled, jerking his thumb over his shoulder at Crabbe, who had just frozen, about to pick up the white ferret.*** Saitaina **** Gandalf dead. Everyone morose. In attempt to cheer up Fellowship, Legolas took off all his clothes and performed scenes from Silmarillion: The Musical. Everyone still morose. Legolas ponced off to have 3,000-year-old elf prince sulk. -Peregrine Took's Very Secret Diary Oh hell, someone wake me when my happy ending starts... I wouldn't want to miss the flying pigs and ice skating demons. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rvotaw at i-55.com Sat Sep 7 00:56:39 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 19:56:39 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry seeing AK on spiders (was Neville) References: Message-ID: <029001c25609$6df0fec0$aaa2cdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 43732 Melody writes: > It really abused both Harry and Neville really, but I think Dumbledore > and Moody/Crouch thought it would help toughen them up a little by > showing them what they already know exists. Childhood memories are > often worse than the real deal, though I can not imagine torture and > death getting worse. Okay, I have a problem understanding how it can help Harry to find out exactly how his parents died in such a way. The way I read it, Harry did not know the actual curse used to kill his parents. He sees Moody/Crouch Avada Kedavra the spider. Moody/Crouch calmly says "Not nice, Not pleasant. And there's no countercurse. There's no blocking it. Only one person has ever survived it and he's sitting right in front of me." Harry's face reddens as everyone stares at him, and he thinks to himself "So that was how his parents had died . . . exactly like that spider." After class Moody/Crouch, so *kindly* (note my sarcasm here) asks Harry "You all right, are you Potter?" "Yes," said Harry, almost defiantly. That defiant answer tells me that no, Harry wasn't all right. It was a stupid question. Let me translate, "I've just shown you in front of all your friends and classmates with no warning or preparation whatsoever exactly how your parents died. You okay with that?" I think Moody/Crouch was right when he said "You've got to know. It seems harsh, maybe, but you've got to know." Yes, he did have to know. But there are easier ways of getting the point across. Like, maybe, in *private!* Prepare him a bit before class. Then Ron goes out carrying on about what a great lesson it was, saying "When he did Avada Kedavra, the way that spider just *died,* just snuffed it right--" and fell suddenly silent at the look on Harry's face and didn't speak again until they reached the great hall, and then it was to talk about Divination homework. So, no, Harry *wasn't* all right. It was cruel, and I personally don't think it was approved by Dumbledore. Certainly not the way he went about it. It makes for an interesting class, yes. He knows his "stuff" yes. But he has no respect whatsoever for the feelings of his students. This is not a simple issue. It's the way Harry learns *how* his parents were killed. And even if Moody/Crouch didn't know whether or not Harry knew, he should have talked with him privately before the lesson. I know, I'm thinking like a first grade teacher again, but it's true! Richelle From brian042 at hotmail.com Sat Sep 7 00:59:24 2002 From: brian042 at hotmail.com (bkb042) Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 00:59:24 -0000 Subject: Question about Book changes/ Neville In-Reply-To: <002f01c2554f$64efa700$dc9ecdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43733 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > > Next topic, I really don't think Neville's under an imperious curse. It just doesn't figure. How would one transfer control of an Imperious? Especially while the one who supposedly put the curse on is having his soul sucked out. Yuck. Anyway, that said, since Crouch Jr. was one of the four on trial for the torture of Frank Longbottom, he obviously knew that Neville knew about the Cruciatus curse. Yet he calls on Neville to give the name of an unforgivable, and then performs it right there in front of him, albeit on a spider. Doesn't that constitute emotional abuse? Now, I know we thought that was Moody. But Moody was at the trial, right? Or am I getting my trials mixed up? Regardless of whether he was or not, as a fellow auror I'm sure he knew all the details. And Dumbledore is okay with this?! I just don't get it. Maybe I'm just too tired and need to go to bed. Here's a real out-on-a-limb, seriously-wacko theory that would help to explain why the Longbottoms are residents of St. Mungo's AND Neville's tentativeness/clumsiness: Crouch Jr. cast Crucio on Baby! Neville after Mrs. Longbottom in an effort to get Frank to talk. A traumatized baby couldn't be expected to develop normally, and the torture of the infant could possibly have driven both parents over the edge. Whaddya think? bkb042 (a.k.a. Brian) From olivia at rocketbandit.com Sat Sep 7 00:43:48 2002 From: olivia at rocketbandit.com (Olivia) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 20:43:48 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Moody's eye/polyjuice In-Reply-To: <00d801c255a2$28baf840$6f4e28d1@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <000901c25607$a0f0f160$9ca2e3d8@agstme.adelphia.net> No: HPFGUIDX 43734 Saitana mercifully corrects Olivia's horrible error: "Actually, Moody's eye never falls out. Crabbe and Goyle were trying to pick up Draco." Thanks, it's been awhile since I've read GoF. I must have either misread or misremembered. I stand gratefully corrected. :) Olivia From saitaina at wizzards.net Fri Sep 6 13:42:17 2002 From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 06:42:17 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Moody's eye/polyjuice References: <000901c25607$a0f0f160$9ca2e3d8@agstme.adelphia.net> Message-ID: <002d01c255ab$37ef6680$294e28d1@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 43735 Olivia wrote: Not a problem dear. I love that scene (even though I'm a Draco fan) so when I read your post I was like, "WHAT?! How could I have missed that?!" Luckily I happened to have a copy of GoF handy. *pats her worn and tattered book lovingly*. Now if his eye HAD fallen out that would have added a whole new element of humor to the scene that would have had me on the floor..could just see it now. Harry: Uh, sir, shouldn't you go and..catch that? *watches the eye roll down the hall, causing Snape to go flying as he steps on it* Sorry, got off track. Saitaina Who's giggling over the mental imagery. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From drumforever at earthlink.net Sat Sep 7 02:04:21 2002 From: drumforever at earthlink.net (Betty Landers) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 22:04:21 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DADA instructors References: Message-ID: <005201c25612$e342c880$14f3b23f@bettysue> No: HPFGUIDX 43736 I took your what you said to mean that you thought he would be teaching. I had heard that we would meet him, but meeting someone doesn't mean they *have* to be teaching. Thanks for the clarification. Betty ----- Original Message ----- From: "hp_fan16" To: Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 4:28 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DADA instructors > Tamme theorized about the lack of seasoned teachers. A very true > statement. The DADA class just seems to lack the luster that might > appeal to older, experienced, qualified, teachers. Why this is? well > that is really the question. > > My first thoughts are that, no one really cares/ believes in > defending themselves, or their children, against the dark arts. I > mean there must be some select few, but the WW as a whole doesn't > seem to worry too much. (besides the 'he-who-must-not-be-named' > stuff) Is there some logical reason for the lack of concern? > > I will admit that Snape might Choose potions anyways, and that > Dumbledore was really good at transfiguration, and they both maybe > prefer/red their positions. But if the WW demanding adequate defense > classes, both would have been forced to teach, or they would have > gotten other excellent teachers. Again, to me, it seems they just > don't trouble themselves with those thoughts. > > I believe Tamme even mentioned that, most wizards, like Fudge, would > rather just ignore the problem of 'dark wizards' or at least certain > aspects. But again even in Dumbledore's day as a teacher, before the > reign of terror, he, Dumbledore, was not a DADA teacher. This leads > me to believe the WW has always treated DADA in this manner, and I > still can't see *why.* > > again 'Is there some logical reason for the lack of concern?' > > ~also a side note:> a little while ago I mentioned Real!Moony being > in book 5, and Betty asked where I found that. > it took me a while to remember, but here: > > > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/book_op.html > > It was on the lexicon (knew I had read it, I've read that whole site) > So it's a fact.<~ > > > Gabrielle~ > who gets the feeling that she's been repeating herself and other may > be a bit annoyed~ =) > > > > > ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > > Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! > > Is your message... > An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. > Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. > Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. > None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. > Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk > > Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > ____________________________________________________________ > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > From rvotaw at i-55.com Sat Sep 7 02:40:37 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 21:40:37 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Question about Book changes/ Neville References: Message-ID: <000b01c25617$f3634140$e69fcdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 43737 bkb042 (a.k.a. Brian) writes: > Here's a real out-on-a-limb, seriously-wacko theory that would help > to explain why the Longbottoms are residents of St. Mungo's AND > Neville's tentativeness/clumsiness: Crouch Jr. cast Crucio on Baby! > Neville after Mrs. Longbottom in an effort to get Frank to talk. A > traumatized baby couldn't be expected to develop normally, and the > torture of the infant could possibly have driven both parents over > the edge. Ooh, I never thought of that. Who else was on trial there, let's see, it was Crouch Jr., possibly the LeStranges (a woman was involved, anyway) and another man. It would be a terrible, horrible, cruel beyond words thing to do, Crucioing a baby or toddler, but I wouldn't put it past them. It could explain a lot about Neville, from his terrible memory to his often bumbling ways. And it would take DE cruelty to a new level. And it would make sense that to get information from a pair of aurors one would take to torturing their child after they wouldn't talk under torture. This opens up a new matter, why didn't they talk after the torture of their child? Did they really know nothing, therefore couldn't? Were they too far gone by the time the DE's reached this point? Or is it something else? This would definitely add to the "darkness" spoken of if it were true and revealed to Harry and co. Richelle From bdmorrp at budget.state.ny.us Sat Sep 7 02:48:19 2002 From: bdmorrp at budget.state.ny.us (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 02:48:19 -0000 Subject: Change in Hagrid's Disposition of Sirius' Motorbike (WAS: UK CoS Changes) In-Reply-To: <20020906154132.52577.qmail@web13001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43738 I (Phyllis/erisedstraeh2002) wrote: > When Dumbledore asks Hagrid where he got the bike, Hagrid says > he "borrowed it...Sirius Black lent it to me" (actually, I just > noticed that the UK edition leaves out the "to", so it reads > awkwardly "Black lent it me."). Barb P (psychic_serpent) responded: > LOL! You have to remember that JKR wrote the books in British, > not 'Merican. The "to" was ADDED to the American version. It's > not awkward without it; it's just British. Now me again: My apologies - I didn't mean to be offensive, just obviously unfamiliar with Britspeak. bboy_mn said: >I think one of the problems is that the US and the UK have different > publishers, and they hare having trouble keeping themselves > coordinated. Me again: I think you've hit the nail on the head, bboy_mn. I was in a bookstore today, and noticed a new version of SS on the shelf. Skimming through it quickly (so as not to be hit with a thief's curse), I noticed that it has the original reference to Hagrid returning the motorcycle to Sirius even though this version was published fairly recently (GoF is listed as one of the available titles in the front). So recent UK versions have changed this reference while the US version remains the same. This is similar to JKR owning up to the ancestor/descendant error, and saying that it has been fixed in later editions, while it's only been fixed in the UK editions and remains incorrect in US editions. ~Phyllis who hasn't a clue what "LOL" stands for, and just hopes she hasn't been hit with the Curse of the Bogies From kellybroughton at yahoo.com Sat Sep 7 03:56:03 2002 From: kellybroughton at yahoo.com (kelly broughton) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 20:56:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who is paying the bills? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020907035603.36096.qmail@web21104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43739 --- kiricat2001 wrote: > > Along those lines, since it seems that Gringotts can call their own > shots, perhaps there is a way for Sirius to authorize a transfer of > funds from his account into Remus'. If money can be pulled out to > buy a broom, it seems logical that there must be some way to send a > form, parchment, or some such piece of paper to instruct the bankers > to move money. It could be duly signed by Sirius and the goblins > could make the transfer. Certainly I don't think Sirius would stroll > down Diagon Alley to do this in person, but if he could send a post > owl with instructions - Why not? > > The goblins certainly don't seem to care about the criminal > background of their clients. > > Marianne Just deleted this post after reading it, then suddenly had a wild thought and went looking madly in my trash folder; thank goodness I remembered the email address and subject! What if the goblins had a way of knowing that Sirius is actually innocent? Of course this begs the question of why they didn't share this information with the ppl who needed it, but then again why would they share any kind of information? Thoughts? -kel, who has wild thoughts quite often __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com From pen at pensnest.co.uk Sat Sep 7 08:21:19 2002 From: pen at pensnest.co.uk (Pen Robinson) Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 09:21:19 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Copy Editors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43740 On Friday, September 6, 2002, at 09:36 , bboy_mn wrote: > > bboy_mn, now ever so humbly responds: > Let's say that I might have overstated myself in the heat of the moment. > > It's just that with so many discrepancies between so many different > versions of the same book, I have to wonder whether people are REALLY > following the rules that you so clearly laid out? > > When one version says Hagrid borrowed a motorcycle that he clearly > says in another book, was given to him, and when one version says he's > going to take it back to Sirius and another says (roughly) he is going > to store it, that would seem to imple that if Rowling is reviewing all > this, even she doesn't know what happening in the book. JKR knows her > books to well for changes like this to slip past her. Given the > significants of some of the changes, I have trouble believing JKR > approved them. Can't prove it, but that's how I see it. I suspect the problem may well be that JKR didn't have things perfectly thought out right back at the beginning. Now that the books are published and being read by so many people, I have no doubt at all that readers are sending in queries and nitpicks galore. Some of the mistakes being corrected are just mistakes which (unfortunately) slipped past the editors and copy editors in the first place (though I find it hard to excuse the ancestor/descendant mixup, and that speech of Fudge's about the curse scar). Other amendments may be because JKR has subsequently realised that what she originally wrote doesn't stand up to the level of scrutiny it is getting from the readership. That, IMO, would explain a change from returning a motorbike to Sirius, to putting it in storage. Since nobody had any reason to query the original version until after they had read PoA, there was plenty of time for the original to be republished, but if it has now been changed to something that makes slightly better sense in retrospect... well, so much the better. Perhaps we had all better resign ourselves to buying a complete set of the books about five years after the issue of book seven! > > So while I'm sure you are 99% of Copy Editors (so that's really what > they are called, huh?) do a fantastic job, my own personal private > view is that somebody is falling down on the job with Rowling's books. > Hmm... I do feel *somebody* should have stamped out a few of those 'Harry had never seen/done/eaten.... in his life' phrases. But listening to the books makes them stand out more than reading them does. Pen From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Sat Sep 7 08:23:38 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (grey_wolf_c) Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 08:23:38 -0000 Subject: Moody's eye/polyjuice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43741 Gabrielle wrote: > so...How Could Crouch Jr. have used Moody's magical eye? Could anyone > with out an eye, have stuck it in their socket and would it have > worked? Moody's Magical Eye is an enchanted object of great powers, but is still only an enchanted object. That is the reason Crouuch was able to use it. So, yes, IMO any person missing an eye can use it if he puts it in his socket. It may be configured so that it only works for Moody, but I'd find that strange an unprecedented in canon. Besides, why bother? If anyone can use it, it doesn't have to be destroyed after Crouch dies, just reselled. > Or was that because of the polyjuice that it worked, and if > so why? if ploy juice can do that could you also give predictions if > you were a polyjuiced-Trelawney? Polyjuice potion will not give you the powers of Trelawney, the same way it wll not give you the magical abilities of Dumbledore, or the intelligence of Crabbe. The polyjuice only helped in this case by giving Crouch a socket in which to put the magical eye. > or would you be turn into a werewolf at full moons if you were a > polyjuiced-Lupin? This question is very interesting, even if it doesn't really have much to do with the rest of the post. I'm willig to believe that you would, in fact, turn into a werewolf while being polyjuiced!Lupin, since it's an inherent quality of the blood/tissues/cells/whatever. Of course, you would un-trasform past an hour, since the werwolf wouldn't take more polyjuice, I think. And, if you took the potion during a full moon, you would be polyjuiced into the wolf form directly. Of course, this is all my theory, since we don't have any canon to back it up one way or the other. > And I have one more, how did Moody acquire that 'magical eye' > anyways? did he invent it, find/buy it, was he born that way? He did NOT born with it. IIRC, in the pensieve scene he still has both normal eyes. I think he bought the eye to replace the one he had lost while fighting DEs. And of course, he got himself an eye that is even better for his job and his constance vigilance than the old one: an eye that can see theough all an every material, including his own body. > Will Moody's eye still work for him, even though it was taken out of > his socket? Of course it will! After all, it worked for Crouch, who had to take it out of Moody's socket. > I'm just confused about the whole eye/polyjuice thing. > How far does polyjuice work, and when and why does the eye? > > Gabrielle~ > who really seems to be writing a bit much lately~ I think you've missed the main point: the eye, like the wooden leg, is nothing more than an artifact. Imagine, if you will, that it's made of wood, painted to look like an eye. That's as far as it goes, really. The piece of wod (or whatever is really made of) has received any number of enchantments to help his wearer to use it. For one thing, the user, who has lost at least an eye, can use it to *see*. In all directions, too, instead of being limited to the normal vision arch of normal eyes. Not only that, it's got the magical equivalent of Superman's "x-ray" vision. And it possibly has other nifty tricks Crouch hadn't the oportunity to use. Polyjuice is not involved in this, either: it only gived Crouch a socket in which to wear it, but the eye worked for real!Moody without him taking any polyjuice. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Sep 7 08:39:06 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (bboy_mn) Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 08:39:06 -0000 Subject: The One and Only Gringotts Bank? In-Reply-To: <001b01c2556f$c91320c0$4a112b18@shprd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43742 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Alina" wrote: > > > > I'm not sure, is Gringotts but consensus of the group (since > > canon is lacking) the only wizards bank in the UK? ...in Europe? > > ...in the 'western' world? .....in the world? > > > > If it's the only wizard's bank in the world that solves a major > > problem I'm having in one of my fan fiction stories. > > > > So.... What say you all? > > > > bboy_mn > > > > "Wizards have banks?" > "Only one. Gringotts." > > It may not be word by word, but thats' the conversation between > Hagrid and Harry when Harry visits Diagon Alley for the first time, > getting his school supplies for Hogwarts. > > Alina of Distant Place > http://www.distantplace.net/ bboy_mn responding to Alina: True that is exactly what it says, but what is the context? Hagrid and Harry are English wizards who are in England and about to go to a wizard's bank in England to get money to by stuff in England after which they will stay in England until such time that they both end up in Scotland. So, is it reasonable to assume that the context is 'England'. Is Harry, in context, saying 'British wizard have banks?' and Hagrid replies 'British wizard have only one; Gringotts.'. What's the answer? I don't know, that's why I'm asking. I'm wondering how other people took this. Personally, I assumed that Gringotts was the bank that served the UK. Can I prove that? NO. That was just my sense when I read it. But now someone has brought up the possibility that it is a worldwide banking system, and I'm wondering what people think about that. Just curious. bboy_mn From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Sat Sep 7 09:17:14 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (grey_wolf_c) Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 09:17:14 -0000 Subject: The One and Only Gringotts Bank? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43743 Alina wrote: > "Wizards have banks?" > "Only one. Gringotts." > > It may not be word by word, but thats' the conversation between > Hagrid and Harry when Harry visits Diagon Alley for the first time, > getting his school supplies for Hogwarts. > > Alina of Distant Place > http://www.distantplace.net/ bboy_mn responding to Alina: > True that is exactly what it says, but what is the context? > > Hagrid and Harry are English wizards who are in England and about to > go to a wizard's bank in England to get money to by stuff in England > after which they will stay in England until such time that they both > end up in Scotland. > > So, is it reasonable to assume that the context is 'England'. Is > Harry, in context, saying 'British wizard have banks?' and Hagrid > replies 'British wizard have only one; Gringotts.'. > > What's the answer? I don't know, that's why I'm asking. I'm wondering > how other people took this. Personally, I assumed that Gringotts was > the bank that served the UK. Can I prove that? NO. That was just my > sense when I read it. But now someone has brought up the possibility > that it is a worldwide banking system, and I'm wondering what people > think about that. > > Just curious. > > bboy_mn You're adding context there, bboy. From Hagrid's words what you get is that there is only ONE bank for the entire WW. It may not be true, but that's what Hagrid says. Besides, certain circunstantial evidence points towards Gringotts being international. After all, Bill works as curse breaker for Gringotts in Egypt: if Gringotts is not an international entity of big powers, why would they be providing that service, when it would normally correspond to the local ministry to uncurse those places? I'd imagine that the goblins are doing it for a percentage of the gold they find inside the tombs, but it still points towards an international bank (and more than that, too). Maybe there ARE other banks, even though we haven't heard of them, but Gringotts certainly IS international, not just British, and once that's accepted, Hagrid's words (assuming he knows what he's speaking of), can only mean that Gringotts is the *only* wizard bank. Of course, Hagrid can be wrong. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From ronale7 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 7 12:22:17 2002 From: ronale7 at yahoo.com (ronale7) Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 12:22:17 -0000 Subject: holly and mahogany Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43744 MitchBailey asked about Holly superstitions: In the Dictionary of Mythology Folklore and Symbols, I found the following: "Anciently holly was hung in churches as a sign of welcome to elves and fairies. In Rome it was a token of goodwill. In the middle ages it was combined with bittersweet garland and hung around a horse's neck to keep it from being hag-ridden." As for mahogamy, it is indeed interesting. I quote from the source mentioned above. "The Tree of Heaven sustains all things, is the judgment seat of the gods, and supplies gods and chosen dead with nourishment. Frequently a bird sits in its branches and attacks a dragon at its roots. Its fruit or leaves represent fate, holding records of the past and future." --Ronale7 From doffy99 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 7 08:34:29 2002 From: doffy99 at yahoo.com (doffy99) Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 08:34:29 -0000 Subject: Who is paying the bills? In-Reply-To: <20020907035603.36096.qmail@web21104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43745 kelly broughton wrote: > > Just deleted this post after reading it, then suddenly had a wild thought > and went looking madly in my trash folder; thank goodness I remembered the > email address and subject! > > What if the goblins had a way of knowing that Sirius is actually innocent? > Of course this begs the question of why they didn't share this information > with the ppl who needed it, but then again why would they share any kind > of information? > > Thoughts? > > -kel, who has wild thoughts quite often IF, as we are arguing about, Gringotts IS the only wizard bank in the world, then why would they even worry about aiding a criminal? Chances are the MOM has very little, if any, power over Gringotts. My guess, is that Gringotts will deal with anyone as long as they aren't a thief. Come to think of it, they'd deal with a thief too, as long as s/he wasn't stealing from them. Sirius sent the cat to do his bidding so he wouldn't be seen by the other WIZARDS in the bank. Having the Goblins see him wouldn't have been a problem. Just my guess. -Jeff From vixinalizardqueen at hotmail.com Sat Sep 7 12:19:11 2002 From: vixinalizardqueen at hotmail.com (vixinalizardqueen) Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 12:19:11 -0000 Subject: New Prediction for Book 5 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43746 Sorry if this theory has been floated before, but I think it's quite a good prediction, if not, at least one I haven't seen or heard of before! My new prediction for book 5 (or actually, any of the future books really) is that Voldemort is going to give Harry a major choice between something that is easy, and something that is right. When thinking about what the choice could possibly be, I came up with the idea that Voldemort could somehow offer to bring Harry's parents back to life, if Harry joins the Death Eaters, and becomes Voldemort's "partner" (or something) in world domination. Or else maybe Harry has to turn in or sacrifice one of his friends (Ron?) or a teacher (Dumbledore?) to get his parents back. I think this would be a really good way to illustrate the difficult choice between what is easy and what is right (a theme which JKR said in a few interviews will feature in a major role in the coming books). Actually, I think that kind of idea was first used in "the Magician's Nephew" by C. S Lewis, but oh well, I think it would be such an interesting/thought provoking/heart wrenching thing to see Harry have to make such a decision. Anyway, that's just a theory, I'd love to hear people pick holes in it!!:p The Lizard Queen From pollux46 at hotmail.com Sat Sep 7 12:27:17 2002 From: pollux46 at hotmail.com (charisjulia) Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 12:27:17 -0000 Subject: Change in Hagrid's Disposition of Sirius' Motorbike (WAS: UK CoS Changes) In-Reply-To: <20020906154132.52577.qmail@web13001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43747 Barb wrote: >As you noted, Dumbledore didn't bat an eye at Hagrid's mention of >Sirius. If JKR had had the Secret Keeper concept in mind at the >beginning of the series--which I believe she came up with later-- >Dumbledore SHOULD have been alarmed about Hagrid mentioning him. I >believe you've hit on something here. > --Barb Actually I always thought that Dumbledore * did* bat an eyelid -- Or, well, at least I'm pretty sure I can pick up a faint flicker there. I've leant my copy of PS out to a friend at the moment, so this isn't an exact quote, but when Hagrid tells of his encounter with Black, Dumbledore, we are told, looks up sharply and then asks if there was any trouble. Obviously this is a very subtle remark -- after all, there's more than enough been going on to warrant the question -- and is easily passed by by the unsuspecting not--yet--having--read--PoA reader. But since Dumbledore appears to be cool as a cucumber up to this point I always prefer to read the comment as a specific reaction to the news that Hagrid run into young Sirius Black. After all, Hagrid has just returned from rescuing an infant wizarding hero from the rubble of his blown--up house after it was attacked by an the Evilest Wizard of All Time who first killed the child's parents and then proceeded to do away with the child itself only to find himself blasted into malignant mist form -- why suddenly remember to be alarmed upon hearing that afterwards a young whippersnapper was hovering around the scene on his flying motorbike? If, when PS was written, Dumbledore was not meant to suspect that Sirius was responsible for the catastrophe, then wouldn't something like "Gee, he must be shook up, was he alright?" be more appropriate? Oh, yes, I think Dumbledore did know about Sirius's Secret?Keeping in the first Chapter of PS. And if JKR didn't, at least she did plan that Albus would have reason to not take any mention of Black lightly . Charis Julia. From srae1971 at iglou.com Sat Sep 7 13:00:30 2002 From: srae1971 at iglou.com (Shannon) Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 09:00:30 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] New Prediction for Book 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020907090030.00a302a0@pop.iglou.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43748 At 12:19 PM 9/7/2002 -0000, vixinalizardqueen at hotmail.com wrote: >My new prediction for book 5 (or actually, any of the future books >really) is that Voldemort is going to give Harry a major choice >between something that is easy, and something that is right. When >I think this would be a really good way to illustrate the difficult >choice between what is easy and what is right (a theme which JKR said >in a few interviews will feature in a major role in the coming books). >Actually, I think that kind of idea was first used in "the Magician's >Nephew" by C. S Lewis, but oh well, I think it would be such an >interesting/thought provoking/heart wrenching thing to see Harry have >to make such a decision. It's probably a safe bet. Such a choice is actually at the heart of nearly every fantasy story worth reading. Sometimes the story is in keeping the path that decision leads to, and sometimes it's the buildup to it. I think Harry Potter is the build up to it. At some point, Harry is going to have a moment of truth from which there is no going back. When that time comes remains to be seen, but I do believe it is coming. Shannon From midgiecat at aol.com Sat Sep 7 14:53:17 2002 From: midgiecat at aol.com (midgiecat at aol.com) Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 10:53:17 EDT Subject: Digest Number 2109: Death Eater Mystery Message-ID: <89.1d7b2f5c.2aab6cdd@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43749 Re: Death Eater Mystery >I was re-reading GOF and my attention was caught by a line of Voldemort's >when he discusses six missing death eaters. Three dead, one too cowardly >to return, one who has left him forever and one who is his most faithful >servent. My conclusion about that phrase is that Snape is the one considered having left forerver, as he was a Dumbledore spy and having been "found out" by LV he would never try coming back. As mentioned, Snape was sent back to rejoin the DE's at the end of GoF. As also mentioned, he couldn't expect LV to believe he was returning. But there are many other former DE's who were awaiting the master's return. I am going to presume that Dumbledore is sending Snape to "hang out" with these people, to seem to be one of them again. Snape won't have to confront LV. He can just be with these people as they talk over the meetings with LV, and with his scar on his arm, he will look to be just like all of them; DE's who left after LV appeared to be defeated after trying to kill Harry. This way he won't be in danger of discovery by LV as he will hear all the plans second-hand. As it appears that everyone meets with cloaks and hoods hiding their faces, no one will know with who they are gathering . When Snape goes to known meeting places where the DE's go to discuss the instructions and orders given them by LV, he will just act as if he had been at the last gathering. Brenda W. "midgiecat" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eloiseherisson at aol.com Sat Sep 7 14:56:57 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 10:56:57 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who is paying the bills? Message-ID: <181.df519ce.2aab6db9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43750 Jeff: > Sirius sent the cat to do his bidding so he wouldn't be seen by the > other WIZARDS in the bank. Having the Goblins see him wouldn't have > been a problem. Just my guess. Crookshanks took the *order* to the *Owl Office*, he didn't withdraw money from the bank. The implication is that the instructions to the bank were on the order, like putting your credit-card number on a mail order form, which doesn't get us any further forward, unfortunately. Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From midgiecat at aol.com Sat Sep 7 15:14:41 2002 From: midgiecat at aol.com (midgiecat at aol.com) Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 11:14:41 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 2109 Message-ID: <1ab.8050bae.2aab71e1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43751 Richelle writes in reference to the avra kedavra lesson: << But there are easier ways of getting the point across. Like, maybe, in *private!* Prepare him a bit before class.>> Readers keep forgetting that this isn't Moody teaching the class, but Barty Crouch, Jr. LV's most faithful servant. He wants Harry to find out just this way about the curse used to kill his parents. I think he delighted in seeing Harry draw the conclusion - thrilled that he was able to watch as that hated Harry Potter imagined how his parents died. Crouch, Jr. is posing as Moody but has feelings of Crouch and is probably sick of having to be somewhat "nice" to all these students, especially Harry. Brenda W. "midgiecat" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Sat Sep 7 15:18:59 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb P) Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 08:18:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Change in Hagrid's Disposition of Sirius' Motorbike (WAS: UK CoS Changes) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020907151859.9284.qmail@web13007.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43752 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "charisjulia" wrote: > Barb wrote: > > >As you noted, Dumbledore didn't bat an eye at Hagrid's mention of > >Sirius. If JKR had had the Secret Keeper concept in mind at the > >beginning of the series--which I believe she came up with later-- > >Dumbledore SHOULD have been alarmed about Hagrid mentioning him. I > >believe you've hit on something here. > > > --Barb > > Actually I always thought that Dumbledore * did* bat an eyelid -- > Or, well, at least I'm pretty sure I can pick up a faint flicker > there. > > I've leant my copy of PS out to a friend at the moment, so this > isn't an exact quote, but when Hagrid tells of his encounter with > Black, Dumbledore, we are told, looks up sharply and then asks if > there was any trouble. Obviously this is a very subtle remark -- > after all, there's more than enough been going on to warrant the > question -- and is easily passed by by the unsuspecting not--yet-- > having--read--PoA reader. > But since Dumbledore appears to be cool as a cucumber up to > this point I always prefer to read the comment as a specific > reaction to the news that Hagrid run into young Sirius Black. I have my UK PS in front of me, and this passage reads thusly: ---------------------------------------- In his vast, muscular arms he was holding a bundle of blankets. 'Hagrid,' said Dumbledore, sounding relieved. 'At last. And where did you get that motorbike?' 'Borrowed it, Professor Dumbledore, sir,' said the giant, climbing carefully off the motorbike as he spoke. 'Young Sirius Black lent it me. I've got him, sir.' 'No problems, were there?' 'No, sir - house was almost destroyed but I got him out all right before the Muggles started swarmin' around. He fell asleep as we was flyin' over Bristol.' ------------------------------------------------------- Dumbledore does not look up sharply at all. His question about problems seems not only rather casual, but he is evidently referring to Muggles, not to Sirius Black. I think Dumbledore expected that Black was looking in on his friends and happened to be there just after the attack. Nothing about his reaction screams that he wants to know where Sirius is right now because if the Potters are dead it must be Sirius' fault. Another reason why I believe that JKR hadn't thought of the Secret Keeper/Fidelius concept this early is that Hagrid was at the Potter home. There is never an explanation concerning why he is there or how he found their home, if the Potters were under the protection of the Fidelius Charm. This isn't explained in PoA, either. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eloiseherisson at aol.com Sat Sep 7 16:36:31 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 12:36:31 EDT Subject: AK/ Cruciatus on Spiders (was re:Digest Number 2109) Message-ID: <8d.1dd4cc56.2aab850f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43753 In a message dated 07/09/2002 16:14:51 GMT Standard Time, midgiecat at aol.com writes: > Readers keep forgetting that this isn't Moody teaching the class, but Barty > Crouch, Jr. LV's most faithful servant. He wants Harry to find out just > this way about the curse used to kill his parents. I think he delighted in > > seeing Harry draw the conclusion - thrilled that he was able to watch as > that > hated Harry Potter imagined how his parents died. Crouch, Jr. is posing as > > Moody but has feelings of Crouch and is probably sick of having to be > somewhat "nice" to all these students, especially Harry. > Yes. Crouch the DE had real motive for being cruel to Harry. He had to protect Harry and guide him through the tasks, although he was his master's enemy and agent of his downfall. He was preserving him for Voldemort to deal with and it must have been ever so tempting to have a go at him himself. This was a way he could do it without 'harming' him. He had an even more personal motive for being cruel to Neville as it was for Crucio'ing Neville's parents that he was sent to Azkaban. He knew *exactly* what he was doing, showing those curses to those two boys. And then he demonstrates his 'concern' for them. The sadist! Yes. I'm sure he loved that lesson every bit as much as the students who weren't unfortunate enough to have had personal experience of the Unforgivables. Eloise Greatly disturbed by the thrill of admiration which she can't help feeling for this character, who must surely be one of JKR's very best creations. Shame the Dementors got him! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Sat Sep 7 16:44:11 2002 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus) Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 16:44:11 -0000 Subject: Give JKR some credit (Re: Change in Hagrid's Disposition of Sirius' Motorbike) In-Reply-To: <20020907151859.9284.qmail@web13007.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43754 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Barb P wrote: > > I have my UK PS in front of me, and this passage reads thusly: > > ---------------------------------------- > 'No problems, were there?' > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > Dumbledore does not look up sharply at all. His question about problems seems not only rather casual, but he is evidently referring to Muggles, not to Sirius Black. > > I think Dumbledore expected that Black was looking in on his friends and happened to be there just after the attack. Nothing about his reaction screams that he wants to know where Sirius is right now because if the Potters are dead it must be Sirius' fault. > --Barb By the same logic, she only thought of Scabbers' true nature in PoA because nothing in his behavior before that "screams" of him being anything but a normal rat. Something tragic has just happened. Dumbledore might well suspect Black of duplicity, but he is not one to go off half-cocked and possibly ruin an innocent man's reputation. Hence the deceptively mild query, "No problems?" Marcus From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Sat Sep 7 18:17:56 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (grey_wolf_c) Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 18:17:56 -0000 Subject: Fidelius (WAS: Re: Change in Hagrid's Disposition of Sirius' Motorbike) In-Reply-To: <20020907151859.9284.qmail@web13007.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43755 Barb wrote: > Another reason why I believe that JKR hadn't thought of the Secret > Keeper/Fidelius concept this early is that Hagrid was at the Potter > home. There is never an explanation concerning why he is there or > how he found their home, if the Potters were under the protection of > the Fidelius Charm. This isn't explained in PoA, either. > > --Barb Why wouldn't Hagrid find the Potter's home? For one thing, the Fidelius was already broken by the time he got in the way: the Potters were already dead, so no magic protected them. Besides, the Fidelius doesn't make the place were the protected people are living impossible to find; it only makes the protected people invisible, or unremarkable, for the duration of the spell except for the secret keeper. The quote is something on the lines of "You could press your face gainst the window of the room were the Potters are and not see a thing." This implies that, even if you knew were to look for them, you wouldn't be able to see them, so you could do very little against them. Of course, wide-area effects probably would affect them, so I'd imagine that the exact location of the Potters was also a secret, but it would have been known by Dumbledore, and he would pass it on to Hagrid when he sent him on his way to search for survivors. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From purple_801999 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 7 19:08:21 2002 From: purple_801999 at yahoo.com (purple_801999) Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 19:08:21 -0000 Subject: Clue to the CoS? In-Reply-To: <20020905204751.12867.qmail@web20418.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43756 Heather wrote: > I've heard a couple different theories about the snake > on the pipe leading to the CoS; one being that Riddle > found it and opened the Chamber, and one saying that > Riddle could've left it there himself for those to > come after him. > > As for the first, how could Riddle have possibly > discovered that in a *girls* bathroom? Harry had to > search carefully to find it when he knew it was there > (well, he knew something was there), so I doubt that > Riddle could've ever come across it in a room that he > wasn't even supposed to be in. > > But as for leaving the snake there himself... > **getting ready to propose my first wild theory** > It's in a girls bathroom, right? Where no boy is going > to enter (except under extremely odd circumstances). > So...what if there is a prophecy that the next heir of > Slytherin is a girl? And if so, what impact would this > have on the story? > > Could it be possible that Ginny scratched the snake on the faucet while under Riddle's influence? It would be easy for a her to have access to the chamber since that bathroom is notoriously unoccupied due to Myrtle but no one really think it strange her for going in there. Or maybe Riddle left several passages to the chamber hidden all over the school before he left. -Olivia Grey From rvotaw at i-55.com Sat Sep 7 21:10:45 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 16:10:45 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] holly and mahogany/ book 5 predictions/ Snape & DE References: Message-ID: <005701c256b3$0e13ab60$179ccdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 43757 Ronale7 writes: > In the Dictionary of Mythology Folklore and Symbols, I found the > following: > As for mahogamy, it is indeed interesting. I quote from the source > mentioned above. "The Tree of Heaven sustains all things, is the > judgment seat of the gods, and supplies gods and chosen dead with > nourishment. Frequently a bird sits in its branches and attacks a > dragon at its roots. Its fruit or leaves represent fate, holding > records of the past and future." Hmm, that must mean something. But what? Anybody venture a guess? The Lizard Queen writes: > My new prediction for book 5 (or actually, any of the future books > really) is that Voldemort is going to give Harry a major choice > between something that is easy, and something that is right. When > thinking about what the choice could possibly be, I came up with the > idea that Voldemort could somehow offer to bring Harry's parents back > to life, if Harry joins the Death Eaters, and becomes Voldemort's > "partner" (or something) in world domination. Or else maybe Harry has > to turn in or sacrifice one of his friends (Ron?) or a teacher > (Dumbledore?) to get his parents back. Well, it makes sense but I am certain I read somewhere (only I can't find it now) where JKR said Harry would never be tempted to the dark side. Now that could still mean Voldemort could make an offer, but Harry wouldn't even consider it. Brenda W. "midgiecat" > My conclusion about that phrase is that Snape is the one considered having > left forerver, as he was a Dumbledore spy and having been "found out" by LV > he would never try coming back. As mentioned, Snape was sent back to rejoin > the DE's at the end of GoF. As also mentioned, he couldn't expect LV to > believe he was returning. I still say there's no hard evidence in Voldemort's court to prove Snape had left forever. Unless, of course, it was that he didn't show up when the DE's were summoned. But, there is always the outside chance that he was there. And not mentioned because Harry didn't see him or something. Harry was a bit preoccupied, and Voldemort didn't mention near everyone by name. Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From catlady at wicca.net Sat Sep 7 21:10:15 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (catlady_de_los_angeles) Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 21:10:15 -0000 Subject: A LONG TRAIN OF THOUGHT re: BULLYING, BAD TEACHERS, BOOK LEARNING, AND SLAVERY Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43758 MariaJ wrote: << the headmistress says (and my blood runs cold): "In my experience of school life, it is a girl's own fault when she is persecuted. ... Keren is a hopeless little prig--" (snip) Just Patty was written in 1911, and the views expressed in it are obviously out-of-date. >> I can assure you, from my personal experience, that that was still the opinion of parents and schoolteachers until at least the late 1960s, at least here in Los Angeles, California. MariaJ wrote: << but I'm not so sure even Dumbledore, that most enlightened of muggle-lovers (no sarcasm intended), would see the need for A Plan Against Bullying. >> Even if Dumbledore knows all about bullying, he would see no need for the faculty to get involved. He would think that it is a good learning experience for the victim to solve the problem on his/her own. Remember, JKR said in an interview that Dumbledore lets Snape be such a nasty professor because Dumbledore believes that dealing with unfair authorities is a learning experience. The Goat Pad http://www.geocities.com/aberforths_goat/ found the quote for me: http://www.yahooligans.com/content/chat/jkrowlingchat.html lhhicks99 asks: Why does Professor Dumbledore allow Professor Snape to be so nasty to the students (especially to Harry, Hermione, and Neville)? jkrowling_bn: Dumbledore believes there are all sorts of lessons in life... jkrowling_bn: horrible teachers like Snape are one of them! Gabrielle wrote: << Has having 'less than wonderful' teachers been decided by someone as the best way to learn? >> Surely not as the BEST way to learn, or Flitwick would and Sprout would be out of work. But, as above quoted, Dumbledore *does* think it useful to have some less than wonderful teachers. I can't remember whether it was JKR or HPfGU who said that Dumbledore keeps Trelawney around to give students the opportunity to learn to recognize frauds -- I hope it was HPfGU, because I like to believe that, fraudulent as old Sybil herself is, she nonetheless can teach students who DO have the talent of Divination how to use it. Olivia wrote: << Professor Binns may give a very dry class in lecturing directly from his notes, but it's part of the curriculum and the students need to learn it. >> I'm not at all sure that the students *do* need to learn it. This is about Muggle students taking California, US, and World History in school, not just about Hogwarts students taking Magical History. I think History is rather interesting, but it's only *useful* in terms of 'those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it", that is, learning from past examples what to do (or, at least, what not to do) now -- for example, the Congressional debate on the declaration of war (okay, formally it was a resolution to give the President authority to order the armed forces to attack, but really it was a declaration of war) on Iraq in 1990 had speeches comparing the situation to the Pelopennesian War as reported by Thucydides and to the Vietnam War as embedded in personal memories. And Binns' class teaches them *nothing* about past examples. Why was there a Werewolf Code of Conduct, how was it imposed, what were the results? All they do is memorize *dates*. Carol wrote: << Book learning alone doesn't necessarily lead to independent thinking. It's not until one thinks about that learning that it becomes true knowledge, knowledge that can lead to independent thought and "practical" use. >> And Binns's memorized dates don't have enough meat on them for the students to *think* about them. Carol wrote: << Here's my thinking on this: if one is a slave, they don't have to think about what to do. They are simply told. They don't need to agonize over any moral decisions (generally speaking). Therefore, in a sense they are free. On the other hand, if one is free, they have to constantly make decisions and figure out what to do. (snip) I had wondered why JKR stuck the House-elves subplot in book 4, which seemed to have quite a bit to deal with already. >> JKR said in an interview that she didn't want to have a S.P.E.W. subplot, but Hermione insisted. The Goat Pad found http://www.cinescape.com/0/Editorial.asp?aff_id=0&this_cat=Books&actio n=page&obj_id=25917 "Hermione gave me a lot of trouble!" laughed Rowling. "She was really misbehaving. She developed this big political conscience about the House elves. Well, she wanted to go her own way, and for two chapters, she just went wandering off. I just let her do it and then I scrapped two chapters and kept a few bits." As for slaves choosing to remain slaves, back in Message 37561, I recommended a Scientific American article about exactly that: http://www.sciam.com/2002/0402issue/0402bales.html From rvotaw at i-55.com Sat Sep 7 21:23:36 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 16:23:36 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: AK/ Cruciatus on Spiders References: <8d.1dd4cc56.2aab850f@aol.com> Message-ID: <008001c256b4$d87a7040$179ccdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 43759 > In a message dated 07/09/2002 16:14:51 GMT Standard Time, midgiecat at aol.com > writes: > > Readers keep forgetting that this isn't Moody teaching the class, but Barty > > Crouch, Jr. LV's most faithful servant. He wants Harry to find out just > > this way about the curse used to kill his parents. I think he delighted in > > seeing Harry draw the conclusion - thrilled that he was able to watch as > > that hated Harry Potter imagined how his parents died. Crouch, Jr. is posing as > > > > Moody but has feelings of Crouch and is probably sick of having to be > > somewhat "nice" to all these students, especially Harry. I think I got so carried away in getting angry at Crouch/Moody that I forgot to make my point. Oops. My point being, that what Crouch/Moody did was so very horrible and evil that it could not possibly have been approved by Dumbledore. Dumbledore may have let him teach the lesson still, but he'd probably have either called in Neville and Harry individually before hand to prepare them or had them out of the class alltogether. So I'm saying basically, that Dumbledore did not know what Moody/Crouch was doing in that class. It's also possible that Moody/Crouch had permission to teach about the unforgiveables, but maybe not specifying what years' classes would be taught that. Perhaps it was supposed to be 5th years up or something. Now does it make sense? Eloise writes: > Yes. Crouch the DE had real motive for being cruel to Harry. He had to > protect Harry and guide him through the tasks, although he was his master's > enemy and agent of his downfall. He was preserving him for Voldemort to deal > with and it must have been ever so tempting to have a go at him himself. This > was a way he could do it without 'harming' him. Here's another issue I have, how did Crouch, who was only a teenager at the time, end up a DE? I suppose he could've been 18, which would've put him out of school, but he sure didn't waste any time going bad. > He had an even more personal motive for being cruel to Neville as it was for > Crucio'ing Neville's parents that he was sent to Azkaban. > > He knew *exactly* what he was doing, showing those curses to those two boys. > And then he demonstrates his 'concern' for them. > The sadist! It is, as you said, almost a shame the dementors got Crouch Jr. He was such a perfect bad guy. Cruel and heartless to the core. No visible conscious, yet he could put on an act. Boy could he put on an act! Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From catlady at wicca.net Sat Sep 7 21:30:27 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (catlady_de_los_angeles) Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 21:30:27 -0000 Subject: SYMBOLISM, MUGGLES AGAINST VOLDEMORT, PROPHECIES, BOGGARTS, ERISED Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43760 SYMBOLISM JOdel wrote: << Those boats not only cross the lake, they enter a tunnel and emerge in an underground cavern all of which are motifs which can carry heavy symbolic baggage. >> Now that you mention it, the school-leavers (if Hogwarts is like a British secondary school) or graduates (if Hogwarts, being the terminal level of schooling, is like a British university) must LEAVE via the underground cavern, tunnel, and boat to their new adult lives. MUGGLES AGAINST VOLDEMORT Carol wrote: << I'm just not too sure what a Muggle could do against a dark wizard as powerful as Voldemort, not to mention his followers. After all, even most wizards didn't have much of a chance against him. >> Muggles could do some things to help the struggle. They don't need magic to do library research. They can do logic puzzles (as Hermione pointed out when faced with the Potion bottles logic puzzle), and they can figure out complicated plots from scattered clues. They could carry a magical artifact or a bottle of potion that someone else had made, and throw it at the Death Eaters. JKR has a better imagination than me and could think of more things. PROPHECIES Swimsalone wrote: << that James' son would be his downfall, and therefore had to kill Harry and James. Lily didn't have to die if James was killed, >> Unless Lily happened to be pregnant with another son at the time. That is just a nitpick and not a plot suggestion. Roo Mahoney replied to Doffy99: << there is no irony I love more than a self-fulfilling prophecy. >> Naama wrote: << do you think this could be *the* prophecy Dumbledore talks about? (snip) could Voldemort have known the Potters' son is the appointed one, and the "go reproduce" order was set against Harry in the first place? >> It *could* be, but I prefer to believe that there were multiple predictions. Voldemort got the one about the boy born near Lammas 1980 and ordered his followers to go out and spawn BECAUSE he didn't know which boy was the appointed one. If he had known it was the Potters' son, he wouldn't have bothered with anyone else's son. Voldemort's followers obeyed him, but the Potters had a son at the same time without having heard of Voldemort's prediction. Someone on the Light Side got the one about Harry (according to me, AFTER Harry had already been born), the one that MIGHT be "the last of the Potters will destroy Voldemort", and Voldemort heard about it, so he tried to protect himself by killing Harry and James (and maybe James's father) as Swimsalone and others have said. I believe that Harry's unique ability to destroy Voldemort is due to Voldemort's attack on baby Harry, so it was a self-fulfilling prophecy as Roo said. I believe that Harry and Voldie got their lives tangled up together, not just Harry getting Parselmouth, so that neither can die while the other is alive. So Harry will have to die in the act of killing Voldie in the final battle in book 7 -- he will, by that time, know the price he'll pay, and choose to pay it for the sake of protecting others; just as the self-fulfilling prophecies are a motif from Classical Greek myth, so dying to save others is a motif from Christian theology. I am not committed to the notion that the Potter prophecy was Trelawney's previous true prophecy. As someone has pointed out, Dumbledore wouldn't know that Trelawney's prophecy was true until it had happened, and not yet has the last of the Potters (or James Potter's son) destoyed the Dark Lord. Btw, some people argue that Tom Riddle (before becoming an immortal snake-man) begat James Potter on Mr Grandpa Potter's wife, thus explaining the physical resemblance and fitting in the popular grandfather versus grandson motif. (It's in the story of Danae: her father, whose name I forget, locked her in a tower because of a prophecy that her son would kill him. Stone walls and iron bars didn't prevent Zeus from seducing her (in the form of a shower of gold, said by some to be a reference to bribing the jailors) and her son was Perseus, who killed Medusa and used Medusa's head to turn his grandfather to stone.) In that case, James and Harry are not true Potters and someone else is the last of the Potters -- maybe James's hypthetical sister's son, who has a different surname? Maybe Longbottom? BOGGARTS Hollydaze! wrote << if the boggart were to turn into a real moon then it would partly destroy the planet (rather worrying idea) >> I *love* the way you phrased that. Btw, I don't know if you saw that I referenced your post # 32380 in my post # 42888. There'snothingto it wrote: << What I want to know about boggarts is what would happen if you faced one and your greatest fear was not something physical. What if you had a fear of closed spaces or of being alone? What if your greatest fear was someone finding out you were gay? Or perhaps Ron Weaslys fear of spiders will be replaced with the fear of Hermione and the rest of the school finding out how he feels about her? >> As someone already mentioned, we have already seen that when Hermione's fear was the abstract fear of doing badly in school, her Boggart took the form of McGonagall telling her that she had failed all her exams. I imagine that fear of closed spaces would inspire a Boggart to take the form of a not-too-large Armoire and come after you with its door open to capture you inside. Fear of someone finding out that you were gay, or in love with Hermione, or any other secret, could induce the Boggart to turn into an issue of DAILY PROPHET or WITCH WEEKLY with your secret in a Big Headline over a Rita Skeeter article. Fear of being alone is a little harder: maybe a big mirror showing you yourself locked in a solitary confinement cell or an isolation ward with QUARRANTINE signs all over? SPEAKING OF BIG MIRRORS Emma_look_alike wrote: << predictions about what Dumbledore saw in the Mirror of Erised. He saw himself holding socks. Perhaps he wants the House Elves to be free, maybe to help fight Voldemort. (snip) Another thing is that Dumbledore couldn't have known that Harry would free Dobby with a sock (it happened in CoS, and the Mirror of Erised was in SS/PS) >> Maybe Dumbledore's Erised could depict socks for freeing House Elves because, even tho' Harry has not yet freed Dobby with a sock, Dumbledore has a premonition about it, or has heard of someone else freeing a House Elf with a sock. He might want to free the Hogwarts House Elves and be unable to do so because they won't accept it. On another tentacle, one of my friends believes that Dumbledore is a big Transfigured or disguised House Elf, and sees the socks because he yearns for his own freedom. She says that he is such a great wizard because he has House Elf magic, which is very strong: no human can Apparate at Hogwarts, but Dobby can Pop! without difficulty. She says Nicholas Flamel is his master, a good master as masters go. Myself, I don't believe those socks have anything to do with House Elves. I believe they are a new pair of the extremely ugly and uncomfortable hand-knit socks his beloved late wife or mother used to give him for Christmas *every* year, and his true heart's desire is not the socks themselves, but having the late beloved around to give them to him. I'm inclined to think it was his wife and she died in the fight against Grindelwald... From catlady at wicca.net Sat Sep 7 22:04:06 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (catlady_de_los_angeles) Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 22:04:06 -0000 Subject: Wand Woods - Gap between Charlie and Percy - Harry's Friends Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43761 Richelle wrote: << wands and wood symbolisms.>> Mitch Bailey wrote: << Harry's wand's wood Holly - holly is an evergreen tree (snip) As well as the christmas assosciations it is also apparently (according to the oxford encyclopedia) a plant surrounded with ancient supersition (snip) It is often found growing near churches graveyards and it represents eternal life and the cycle of life and death in pagan religions. >> I've never heard of yew being a symbol of 'the cycle of life and death', but often of it being a symbol of death. Because it was traditionally planted in graveyards as you mentioned (to consume the corpses as fertilizer), because its bark, leaves, and berries were all poisonous as you mentioned, and because the famous English longbow was made out of yew wood, which luckily happens to be a natural composite, with two layers that are the perfect combination for a powerful bow. Even tho' being evergreen doesn't make yew a symbol of life, it does make holly a symbol of life. Its green leaves in the snowy Christmas time representing the defeat of death (by Christ's resurrection, and heaven for believers) and its blood red berries (representing the *means* of that conquest of death) made it a perfect Christ symbol for Christmas (not that I believe in Christianity myself, but JKR does), but it earlier appeared in stories -- I think this is Tristan and Mark fighting over Essylt, any way some higher king ordered them to time-share her, and Tristan offered Mark his choice of having her when the leaves are green or when the trees are bare. Mark thought of those long winter nights and chose when the trees are bare. Tristan exulted that the holly and ivy have green leaves all year and are never bare and therefore he gets Essylt year-round. For some reason, this was considered legitimate. Mahogany is the color (dark red) of Lily Evans Potter's hair. Michelle wrote: << It seems to me that the Weasley family as a whole were lucky the first time voldemort was around (I would have thought we would have heard by now of any serious death in the family due to Voldemort by now) (snip) Also has anyone else noticed that while there seems to be small gaps in age between most of the Weasley kids (1 or 2 school years) by my calculations (going on the fact that Charlie seemingly left hogwarts 5 years before Ron started) Percy is about 8 years younger than Charlie - why such the huge gap? >> One theory for the big gap (I think I counted on my fingers that it was seven years) between Charlie and Percy is that there were one or two more kids in the gap, who were killed by Voldemort/Death Eaters. One basis for this speculation is that Arthur's mention, in GoF, that the young-uns didn't know what it was like to come home to see that Dark Mark hanging over your house and know that it meant the house was destroyed and all your family killed; some people think he sounded like he was speaking from *very* personal experience. Emma_look_alike wrote: << Does it seem that Harry only has Ron and Hermione for friends? >> One would not say that the Twins are not his friends ... they joke around with him, and give him the Marauder's Map. I think Harry would say that Oliver Wood was his friend ... but yes, Ron and Hermione are the only people he hangs out with except for Quidditch practise, and the only people he comes close to confiding in. Harry never had any friends before he came to Hogwarts, and he probably feels that having *two* close friends is a great many. From jodel at aol.com Sat Sep 7 17:54:59 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 13:54:59 EDT Subject: Moody's eye/polyjuice Message-ID: <1b8.5f7b8d2.2aab9773@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43762 Grey Wolf writes; >> This question is very interesting, even if it doesn't really have much to do with the rest of the post. I'm willig to believe that you would, in fact, turn into a werewolf while being polyjuiced!Lupin, since it's an inherent quality of the blood/tissues/cells/whatever. Of course, you would un-trasform past an hour, since the werwolf wouldn't take more polyjuice, I think. And, if you took the potion during a full moon, you would be polyjuiced into the wolf form directly. Of course, this is all my theory, since we don't have any canon to back it up one way or the other. << Now this one is fun. The question is whether the werewolf's 'mania' is a (chemically-based) physiological condition inherent to the wolf form, or whether it is a psycological dementia which accompanies it. In which case, polyjuicing into a wolf form would retain the human mind (as in a werewolf whose condition is controled by the wolfsbane potion) in which case the polyjuice could be taken by the hour if a form of it managible by a wolf could be produced (capsules?). The fact that the mania IS treatable only complicates the issue, since at present the treatment needs to be undertaken before transformation. Fanfics anyone? -JOdel From jodel at aol.com Sat Sep 7 17:54:58 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 13:54:58 EDT Subject: DADA instructors Message-ID: <15b.13bcf4aa.2aab9772@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43763 Tamee asks (having pointed out that until Moody all the DADA instructors we've seen have been young); >> Why aren't there any seasoned DADA teachers? Were most who could have taught killed or driven mad during the war with Voldemort? Do they feel that the DADA curriculum that the board of governors (?) would approve is a joke? Are they too busy seeking out Dark Wizards? << I suspect that we may be seeing a bias in action here. It may be difficult to find DADA instructors who are not also Dark wizards. This may be the chief reason that Snape is so contemptuous of the young DADA teachers we've seen so far. (He wasn't contemptuous of Moody, just wary about him). This contempt would be in character whether he actually wants the job or not. In fact this may be one of those subjects on which he and Dumbledore do not see eye to eye. It is also a probable reason why, if Snape DOES want the job, he will not get it. There is no question that Snape is, or has been a Dark wizard. I suggest that it is Dumbledore himself who refuses to have a Dark wizard teaching DADA to Hogwarts students. We know that the Dark Arts are not universally disaproved of in the WW. They are a respectable part of the curiculum at Durmstrang. We do not know whether they are taught at Beaubatons. We have never been told that the Dark Arts are illegal in their entirety, either. Only that cerain spells are, and that certain materials associatede with certain Dark spells or Potions are closely regulated. I will suggest further, that the elimination of the Dark Arts from the Hogwarts curiculum was an innovation which only came in when Dumbledore became Headmaster -- to universal aclaim after the Grindlewald affair. PROFESSOR Grindlewald, maybe? That would sure make a good reason why the whole British WW was willing to support him in it. Unfortunately, while there were damn good reasons to take this stance, a lot of this support was largely due to overwhelming relief at a disaster averted and fueled by a cult of personality. This solidarity couldn't and didn't last. This would also partially explain how Voldemort managed to get so far so quickly in his first rise. On the one hand, the British WW had now had nearly 30 years to digest what was, after all, a rather sweeping fundamental change in their culture, and it stands to reason that a good many of them had decided thay didn't like it and had been better off in the first place. It also meant that the younger generation didn't have a solid grounding in the Dark Arts with which to counteract Voldemort's methods. At Hogwarts, this means that any student who finished schooling prior to the Grindlewald affair who is a Dark Arts specialist would have actually been trained in the Dark Arts rather than merely how to defend themselves from them. And Dumbledore would rather not have any of these teaching at Hogwarts. He concieved of his DADA class (and he did create it. It's only a pity that he is bnot teaching it) as teaching students how to defend themselves agfainst the Dark Arts WITHOUT having to resort to them to do it. Consequently, all acceptable candidates for the post of DADA instructor are either young enough to have gotten their schooling after the Grindlewald era, or are personally known to Dumbledore. Moody is a personal friend that Albus can vouch for being no Dark wizard. -JOdel From MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Sep 7 21:21:06 2002 From: MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM (mitchbailey82) Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 21:21:06 -0000 Subject: holly and mahogany/ book 5 predictions/ Snape & DE In-Reply-To: <005701c256b3$0e13ab60$179ccdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43764 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > Ronale7 writes: > > > > In the Dictionary of Mythology Folklore and Symbols, I found the > > following: > > > As for mahogamy, it is indeed interesting. I quote from the source > > mentioned above. "The Tree of Heaven sustains all things, is the > > judgment seat of the gods, and supplies gods and chosen dead with > > nourishment. Frequently a bird sits in its branches and attacks a > > dragon at its roots. Its fruit or leaves represent fate, holding > > records of the past and future." > > Hmm, that must mean something. But what? Anybody venture a guess? Ok the first the dragon we all know that Draco (as in Draco Malfoy (sorry for pointing out the obvious :-))) means dragon in latin and in PS somewhere I believe that harry is likened to a hawk ( ps chapter 13) " Harry, who was circling the game like a hawk" ( on of the reasons I think that if ( and thats a very big if!) Harry became an animagis he'd be a bird of prey of some sort) So theres one possibility... I supose the bird could be Fawlkes to.. Michelle ~ who's sorry if she's spelt anything wrong!~ From cindysphynx at comcast.net Sat Sep 7 22:22:20 2002 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (cindysphynx) Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 22:22:20 -0000 Subject: DADA instructors & Karkaroff In-Reply-To: <15b.13bcf4aa.2aab9772@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43765 Tamee asked (about young DADA instructors): > Why aren't there any seasoned DADA teachers? Were most who could >have taught killed or driven mad during the war with Voldemort? Jodel responded: > I suspect that we may be seeing a bias in action here. It may be >difficult to find DADA instructors who are not also Dark wizards. You can say that again, Jodel! ;-) See, I've also been wondering if Dumbledore has had a problem that his past DADA teachers taught a while and then figured the better opportunities were on Voldemort's team. Why? Well, I think Karkaroff used to be a DADA teacher for Dumbledore before he joined up with Voldemort. He certainly seems to have some prior connection to Hogwars. Look at Karkaroff's warm greeting for Dumbledore upon his arrival at Hogwarts: "Dumbledore!" he called heartily as he walked up the slope. "How are you, my dear fellow, how are you?". . . "Dear old Hogwarts," [Karkaroff] said, looking up at the castle and smiling. . . "How good it is to be here, how good . . . " Sounds to me like a former colleague returning to the place where he taught. Also, if Karkaroff is headmaster at Durmstrang, isn't it likely he obtained some teaching experience somewhere? Not only that, Dumbledore seems somewhat sympathetic to Karkaroff in the Pensieve scene. As Mad-Eye voices his anger toward Karkaroff, Dumbledore seems much more kind, disagreeing that the Ministry should hear Karkaroff's information and send him back to the dementors. It makes me wonder what other DEs might have been Hogwarts DADA teachers. Hmmm. ;-) Cindy -- who has to wonder if Snape wants the DADA job because Snape used to have that position before Snape went Bad From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sat Sep 7 22:41:44 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (malady579) Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 22:41:44 -0000 Subject: The teacher is the problem. Not the subject. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43766 Olivia wrote: << Professor Binns may give a very dry class in lecturing directly from his notes, but it's part of the curriculum and the students need to learn it. >> Then Cat Lady wrote: >> I think History is rather interesting, but it's only *useful* in terms of 'those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it", that is, learning from past examples what to do (or, at least, what not to do) now ***minor cut*** And Binns' class teaches them *nothing* about past examples. Why was there a Werewolf Code of Conduct, how was it imposed, what were the results? All they do is memorize *dates*. << So I wrote: As a history major and defender of the subject that everyone questions me about as to how and why I loves it so much...I must say that the reason the students do not love History of Magic is because of the way it is taught. History is only as exciting as it is perceived, envisioned, dreamed, and relived. Professor Binns does none of that. He just drolls on and on in a monotone voice that puts all to sleep. The fact he can make Goblin revolutions so boring is great testiment to that fact. A true professor of history does not just tell you what happens but paints the world it happened in wondrous technicolor. Now I have had amazing professors that make you see why people's lives can be interesting and rather enchanted. Those professors take the students into the past world where the decisions of our ancestors made and shaped its very landscapes. It is a storytelling position really where you have to capture your audience and charm them beyond learning boring facts like dates and city maps. A true professor who loves thier field and has some charisma helps the student see how it all weaves together and how each article of the past is balanced into the present. But, to appose those wonderful professors, I have had some, like Binns, that just drolled on and on and just bored me to death. My favorite period in history is the 1870-1910. I haved studied it since I was a child and was so excited to have found a class at my university exclusively on that period. I got to class early the first day and was ready to learn all the Vanderbilts and Astors, the new harnessed electric lights, bustle dresses and top hats...(yes I know I am really odd and bit strange but follow me here)...but was sorely disappointed when my professor came in and began talking in monotone about the dates and facts of the period. He did like history a lot but had no idea how to exhibit history in any light that would be favorable. If I had not already knew the period to be rather facinating or had not already loved history, I would of hated this time in history, found all of this to be pointless, and began plotting a way to remove this subject from torturing anyone ever again. (Lucky I only spent my time doodling in the margins of the pages. Wait I did that in every class...) My point is history is important and does need to be told. I mean how else would the kids know the goblins revolted and are so dangerous. How would they know about the chamber of secrets. The past tells us the consequences of situations and the temperment of each time which is called zeitgeist. If you learn this, you can see how everything has shaped our given world, our percieved mind, and our desired dreams. Giving a history class to a professor like Binns is like giving a theatre class to an agoraphobic. They are doomed from the start because no matter how much they've learned and love the subject, they could never perform it in a manner that is actually stimulating. Melody Who is sorry to be so defensive and protective. Long live Herodotus. From jdumas at kingwoodcable.com Sat Sep 7 23:16:29 2002 From: jdumas at kingwoodcable.com (Katze) Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 18:16:29 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups]book 5 predictions References: <005701c256b3$0e13ab60$179ccdd1@istu757> Message-ID: <3D7A88CD.6090100@kingwoodcable.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43767 Richelle Votaw wrote: > The Lizard Queen writes: >>My new prediction for book 5 (or actually, any of the future books >>really) is that Voldemort is going to give Harry a major choice >>between something that is easy, and something that is right. When >>thinking about what the choice could possibly be, I came up with the >>idea that Voldemort could somehow offer to bring Harry's parents back >>to life, if Harry joins the Death Eaters, and becomes Voldemort's >>"partner" (or something) in world domination. Or else maybe Harry has >>to turn in or sacrifice one of his friends (Ron?) or a teacher >>(Dumbledore?) to get his parents back. > > > Well, it makes sense but I am certain I read somewhere (only I can't find it > now) where JKR said Harry would never be tempted to the dark side. Now that > could still mean Voldemort could make an offer, but Harry wouldn't even > consider it. I do think Voldmort will offer something to Harry, but I don't think Harry will be tempted. I also don't think Voldemort will offer Harry's parents for two reasons. First, he tried this in book one, and it didn't sway Harry. Second, Rowling has stated in interviews that once a person is dead in the Potterverse, there is no coming back. Voldemort was never completely dead and thus allowed him to be "reborn", but Harry's parents are completely dead. On the other hand, Rowling is still writing the story and she could change her mind. Katze From kaityf at jorsm.com Sat Sep 7 22:09:08 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 17:09:08 -0500 Subject: Book Learning (Was A LONG TRAIN OF THOUGHT ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020907162712.0454ad90@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> No: HPFGUIDX 43768 >Olivia wrote: > ><< Professor Binns may give a very dry class in lecturing directly >from his notes, but it's part of the curriculum and the students need >to learn it. >> catlady replied: >I'm not at all sure that the students *do* need to learn it. This is >about Muggle students taking California, US, and World History in >school, not just about Hogwarts students taking Magical History. I >think History is rather interesting, but it's only *useful* in terms >of 'those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it", that >is, learning from past examples what to do (or, at least, what not to >do) now -- for example, the Congressional debate on the declaration >of war (okay, formally it was a resolution to give the President >authority to order the armed forces to attack, but really it was a >declaration of war) on Iraq in 1990 had speeches comparing the >situation to the Pelopennesian War as reported by Thucydides and to >the Vietnam War as embedded in personal memories. I disagree. This is a view of education as something that has this kind of pragmatic purpose. Anyway, if history is taught as Binns teaches it, then yes, it does consist of little but memorizing dates. However, it can be used to foster critical thinking skills (which one needs to think independently) as well as other things I won't go into since that really isn't the point here. catlady >And Binns' class teaches them *nothing* about past examples. Why was >there a Werewolf Code of Conduct, how was it imposed, what were the >results? All they do is memorize *dates*. That's all we know about. Perhaps Binns is trying to lay a foundation for later study that requires thought. Personally, I rather doubt this to be the case as Binns is clearly drawn as one of the very dry, dull history teachers I'll bet many of us endured in school. In any case, the fact that Binns is a bad teacher says nothing about the need for the subject. Lockhart is a horrible DADA teacher, but we wouldn't say that it shouldn't be taught. Maybe we are bringing our attitudes towards history to our reading of HP and are therefore more willing to see the need for DADA than for Binn's history. However, being a Muggle myself, I'm not sure exactly why history is taught at Hogwarts or what the students are supposed to get from it. We aren't ever really told. All we know is that Binns is extremely boring. >Carol wrote: > ><< Book learning alone doesn't necessarily lead to independent >thinking. It's not until one thinks about that learning that it >becomes true knowledge, knowledge that can lead to independent >thought and "practical" use. >> catlady answered: >And Binns's memorized dates don't have enough meat on them for the >students to *think* about them. And I contend that this has more to do with teaching method than with course content. Just like in real life. >Carol wrote: > I had >wondered why JKR stuck the House-elves subplot in book 4, which >seemed to have quite a bit to deal with already. >> catlady replied: >JKR said in an interview that she didn't want to have a S.P.E.W. >subplot, but Hermione insisted. The Goat Pad found >http://www.cinescape.com/0/Editorial.asp?aff_id=0&this_cat=Books&actio >n=page&obj_id=25917 > >"Hermione gave me a lot of trouble!" laughed Rowling. "She was really >misbehaving. She developed this big political conscience about the >House elves. Well, she wanted to go her own way, and for two >chapters, she just went wandering off. I just let her do it and then >I scrapped two chapters and kept a few bits." This is how writing works. Sometimes characters take over and direct themselves. That doesn't mean, though, that a writer has no control over the events in the books. When JKR says "...for two chapters, [Hermione] just went wandering off. I just let her do it and then I scrapped the two chapters and kept a few bits," she's no doubt referring to the exploratory process of writing. But consider the revision. She says she "scrapped two chapters and kept a few bits." What made her keep those few bits? I'd bet she kept them because they fit in with the themes of her series. And then that house-elf subplot couldn't just be stuck in there unconnected to anything. If it served no purpose at all, JKR, being the good writer she is, would certainly have scrapped it with the rest of those chapters she scrapped. catlady said: >As for slaves choosing to remain slaves, back in Message 37561, I >recommended a Scientific American article about exactly that: >http://www.sciam.com/2002/0402issue/0402bales.html Well, as I said, there are connections to real life situations in the HP books. JKR, I think, makes us think about them. Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From lainazz at yahoo.com Sat Sep 7 23:09:34 2002 From: lainazz at yahoo.com (lainazz) Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 23:09:34 -0000 Subject: DADA instructors & Karkaroff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43769 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "cindysphynx" wrote: It makes me wonder what other DEs might have been Hogwarts DADA teachers. Hmmm. ;-) Cindy -- who has to wonder if Snape wants the DADA job because Snape used to have that position before Snape went Bad >> Wow. This could explain Snape's general bad behavior in the Dungeons (at least to a small extent). And, if I can go on a long, hypothetical idea to draw out more speculation: Perhaps he [he being Snape] had been a well known DADA teacher prior to becoming a DE, and then was publicly humiliated for not being strong enough (with his DADA skills) to withstand Voldemort. This could also add to his disagreeable behavior, and also create a cloud of jealousy towards whoever stepped into his previous position. Also, whoever unmasked Snape as a DE would be forever on Snape's "People I hate most" list. To further speculation, imagine what would befall Snape as his status of a DE came out to the public. To continue the idea that Dumbledore would not allow a DE or Dark Wizard to be in the position of a DADA teacher at Hogwarts, Snape would find himself out of a job. Instead of wide renowned in DADA he probably had enjoyed, Snape would be shut off into the murky dungeons; left to teach a class quite possibly no one would want to-- Potions. After all, teaching Potions has to be a high risk job with all the accidents we've observed in the books. Teaching young teens how to mix dangerous ingredients together without blowing up the school must be a difficult and stressful job, obviously lacking mental or physical perks-- especially if that person had grown accustomed to "greatness" in the DADA position. Aimless speculation, but very good typing for my frozen fingers :D ~Alaina, who just wrote her first post :) From rvotaw at i-55.com Sun Sep 8 01:44:44 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 20:44:44 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] re: Tempting Harry (was book 5 predictions)/ VOLDEMORT/ DADA professers/ Binns/ References: Message-ID: <003201c256d9$4f666dc0$14a0cdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 43770 Katze writes: > I also don't think Voldemort will offer Harry's parents for two reasons. First, > he tried this in book one, and it didn't sway Harry. Can you point me to this in the book? I almost brought it up earlier, but couldn't find it so I was afraid I'd been "movieized." :o > Second, Rowling has stated > in interviews that once a person is dead in the Potterverse, there is no coming > back. Voldemort was never completely dead and thus allowed him to be "reborn", > but Harry's parents are completely dead. Which I also read in a JKR interview. That a live Lily and James will never be seen. > Swimsalone wrote: > > << that James' son would be his downfall, and therefore had to kill > Harry and James. Lily didn't have to die if James was killed, >> Catlady responded: > Unless Lily happened to be pregnant with another son at the time. > That is just a nitpick and not a plot suggestion. I think the problem with that is Voldemort's hesitance to kill her and his repeated orders to "Stand aside." If she had been pregnant, I think she too would have been one of the original targets. So if she was pregnant, I don't think he knew, or he'd have killed her straight away. Cindy wonders: > if Snape wants the DADA job because Snape > used to have that position before Snape went Bad If he did, he was awfully young! If he's 35 as far back as SS/PS, that makes him 25 when he went back to the good side. He'd have had to be with Voldemort a few years at least, so it gets rather tight on the time schedule. Still possible, I suppose, if he went into teaching straight out of school. If there is truly no "university" equivalent for wizards and witches to study further. Melody writes: > He [Professor Binns] just drolls on and on in a monotone voice that puts all to sleep. > The fact he can make Goblin revolutions so boring is great testiment > to that fact. A true professor of history does not just tell you what > happens but paints the world it happened in wondrous technicolor. I personally think that Binns is put in as a joke on the sterotypical "boring" history professor. Myself, I always loved history. But some people, well, they need more entertainment. I think it's a note of sarcasm, that even a ghost could teach it. Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From jmmears at comcast.net Sun Sep 8 02:19:29 2002 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust) Date: Sun, 08 Sep 2002 02:19:29 -0000 Subject: Tempting Harry (was book 5 predictions)/ VOLDEMORT/ DADA professers/ Binns/ In-Reply-To: <003201c256d9$4f666dc0$14a0cdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43771 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > Katze writes: > > > I also don't think Voldemort will offer Harry's parents for two reasons. > First, > > he tried this in book one, and it didn't sway Harry. > > Can you point me to this in the book? I almost brought it up earlier, but > couldn't find it so I was afraid I'd been "movieized." :o Actually, Voldemort only tells Harry to join him in order to avoid dying like his parents. "'Don't be a fool,' snarled the face. 'Better save your own life and join me ... or you'll meet the same end as your parents...They died begging me for mercy...'" PS, paperback p 213. I wasn't positive about this either until I checked the book, but it appears that the bit about bringing Harry's parents back was only added to the movie version and I remember being jarred by it at the time. It definitely isn't in the book. Jo Serenadust From brian042 at hotmail.com Sun Sep 8 03:32:16 2002 From: brian042 at hotmail.com (bkb042) Date: Sun, 08 Sep 2002 03:32:16 -0000 Subject: Welcome back to the shrieking shack Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43772 After conducting a less than exhaustive search of the archives (primarily along the Dirty!Harry and Stoned!Harry thread), I decided that I should share my insomnia-induced observations with y'all. In PoA (US, hb) pp 370-371 370--"Pettigrew opened his mouth and closed it several times. He seemed to have lost the ability to talk." 371--"Pettigrew was shaking his head, mouthing noislessly, but staring all the while at Black as though hypnotized." For the most part, JKR has told the story from Harry's perspective if he was involved in the "scene". Pettigrew was *silently* exercising his lips while Sirius was recounting his experiences and escape from Azkaban. Why the sudden shift in point-of-view to 3rd person omnipotent while the main characters are present? No one else was talking at the time, and the impression I get is that Sirius wasn't making eye contact with anyone. Pettigrew wasn't looking around, either. He was fixated on Sirius because, IMO, Black would have been the only person who would have noticed his mouth moving. Groups of people tend to focus on a single speaker, but the eyes of a person making a speech without notes tend to wander. We know that wandless spells exist (Snape and Quirrel in PS/SS), so what, if anything, was he trying to do? I invite you to consider the next four pages, 372-375. "Pettigrew had fallen to his knees as though Harry's nod had been his own death sentance." He then shuffles around on his knees with his hands clasped in front of him, tryiing to make contact first with Black, then Lupin, then Ron, Hermione, and finally, Harry. He manages to get a hold of Hermione's robes, but never actually touches HER. The only person that he makes physical contact with is Harry. Is there any significance to this in light of his recent mouth calesthenics? It should go without saying at this point that the next time Wormtail encounters Harry, Peter sticks a knife in him, and Voldemort climbs out of a cauldron. What does all this add up to? I dunno. Ask Trelawney. I'm just the guy that made the tea, SHE'S in charge of telling us what the dirty cups mean. (we're doomed) Just something (hopefully, new) to chew on. Enjoy the meal! bkb042 (a.k.a Brian) From purple_801999 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 8 03:54:27 2002 From: purple_801999 at yahoo.com (purple_801999) Date: Sun, 08 Sep 2002 03:54:27 -0000 Subject: Harry's Friends In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43773 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "catlady_de_los_angeles" wrote: > Richelle wrote: > > << wands and wood symbolisms.>> > > > > Emma_look_alike wrote: > > << Does it seem that Harry only has Ron and Hermione for friends? >> > Catlady_de_los_angeles wrote- > One would not say that the Twins are not his friends ... they joke > around with him, and give him the Marauder's Map. I think Harry would > say that Oliver Wood was his friend ... but yes, Ron and Hermione are > the only people he hangs out with except for Quidditch practise, and > the only people he comes close to confiding in. Harry never had any > friends before he came to Hogwarts, and he probably feels that having > *two* close friends is a great many. Hermione and Ron maybe his closest friends but I hesitate to say they were his only friends. Harry seems close to all of his dormmates, Dean, Seamus, and especially Neville (Big plans for that boy, I can feel it). Also all of the Weasleys,Hagrid, and the Quidditch team. It's not on the same level as the Trio but they have taken on a mountain troll together and a very reliable sorce says that you can't go throught that and not be friends. If I worry about anyone's lack of companionship, it's Hermione. Apparently it seems to just be her,Lavender,and Pavarti and they really don't seem to get along. But when I brought this up in a previous post several people pointed out that Hermione seemed to get along with several Ravenclaw students outside of Harry's P.O.V. But she still seemed very alone in PoA when Ron and Harry weren't speaking to her. At least Harry had her in GoF and Ron had his brothers and Lee Jordan. -Olivia Grey From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com Sun Sep 8 05:02:51 2002 From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac) Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 22:02:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [filk] Tom's Diary Message-ID: <20020908050251.68243.qmail@web40306.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43774 "Tom?s Diary" to the tune of "Diary" by Bread listen to a portion of the song- http://www.mid-tn.com/bread/Bread-Best.html Dedicated to Nicole, fellow Legolas lover (The Scene: Ginny is alone in her room, writing in a new ? and unenchanted ? diary about her first diary experience.) GINNY: I found Tom's diary in my Transfig book and found the pages were all clear. "How strange," I thought and wrote a little note... My words began to disappear! But stranger still was that this Tom wrote back to me. But I didn't Tom know. Was he a friend or foe? We started corresponding for awhile; He wrote back to me patiently. He didn't tease me like my brother's did about how I like Ron's friend Harry. And though I tried to find the brain of this diary. Wouldn't you know it? Tom wouldn't show it. And as I went off to school I thought, "I won't get ridiculed by my pocket friend, Tom." But when the awful Chamber of Secrets was opened by Slytherin's heir I started to discover that this Tom Simply pretended just to care. He was just using me to get to Harry. But Harry saved me by killing Tom's diary! And as I go through my life, I will owe to him my life. It's a debt I shall repay -- I?ll save Harry?s life one day. ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* "Tut, tut --- hardly any of you remembered that my favorite color is *lilac*. I say so in Year with the Yeti." --Gilderoy Lockhart, COS --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Mysticwolf_girl at hotmail.com Sun Sep 8 04:44:41 2002 From: Mysticwolf_girl at hotmail.com (emma_look_alike) Date: Sun, 08 Sep 2002 04:44:41 -0000 Subject: FILK: Sweet Hermine song Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43775 This is a parody on "Sweet Caroline" How it began? She was raised a muggle But then she got the letter so Both her parents Reliable dentists Who'd'a believe she'd be a witch? Chorus Hands Raising hands Reaching out Answer now! 10 for Gryffindor Sweet Hermine Hogwarts never seen so good How did you Memorize the textbooks? And now you're Top of your class Friends with both Ron and Harry Tryin' to get them to join S.P.E.W. Perfectionist Studying for exams How can you when they're two months away? Chorus Sweet Hermine Hogwarts never seen so good How did you Memorize the textbooks? emma_look_alike From smiller at dslextreme.com Sun Sep 8 04:07:36 2002 From: smiller at dslextreme.com (constance_vigilance) Date: Sun, 08 Sep 2002 04:07:36 -0000 Subject: DADA instructors In-Reply-To: <15b.13bcf4aa.2aab9772@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43776 > Tamee asks (having pointed out that until Moody all the DADA instructors > we've seen have been young); > > Why aren't there any seasoned DADA teachers? My understanding was that Quirrel was the DADA teacher, and presumably a good one, for some years until he decided to go on sabbatical for some practical experience - with the results we all know. Then after he came back as Quirrelmort, we don't know how many years prior to Harry's introduction that he taught at Hogwarts. Presumably, he was there for at least one year previous, because Percy was familiar with him. Based on teaching at Hogwarts for a few years, then going on sabbatical for a few years, then teaching at Hogwarts again for at least two years, we can assume that Quirrel is likely older than he looks. Basically, I'm disputing the theory that Quirrel is young. Now let's look at Lockheart. He also may be older than he looks. He has spent time traveling the world building his reputation and writing bestsellers. His vanity may also cause him to undergo the ww version of facelifts and tummy tucks. Therefore, I guess I'm disputing the idea that Lockheart is young, also. Lupin? I don't think anyone is accusing him of being too young to teach. Therefore, I don't think any of the DADA teachers have been particularly young. >From a purely managerial perspective, Dumbledore may just be having difficulty filling his vacancy, and he hires who he can get. Since Quirrel left to become Quirrelmort, I think the pickings have been rather meager. My 2 knuts. ~ Constance Vigilance From Bbfanarchy at aol.com Sun Sep 8 05:47:57 2002 From: Bbfanarchy at aol.com (Bbfanarchy at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 01:47:57 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's Friends Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43777 Olivia Grey wrote: >If I worry about anyone's lack of companionship, it's Hermione. >Apparently it seems to just be her,Lavender,and Pavarti and they >really don't seem to get along. But when I brought this up in a >previous post several people pointed out that Hermione seemed to get >along with several Ravenclaw students outside of Harry's P.O.V. But >she still seemed very alone in PoA when Ron and Harry weren't >speaking to her. At least Harry had her in GoF and Ron had his >brothers and Lee Jordan. I agree. Hermione's lack of outside friendship at Hogwarts almost seems to be serving as a facet of her personality - like she's so bossy and know-it-all that very few students can stand her. The few main relationships we get to see that involve Hermione are the trio, Hagrid, the Weasleys and strangely, Draco. Her role in the Harry/Ron/Hermione dynamic is clearly defined, of course. Hagrid obviously adores her, but it's much the same way he adores Ron and Harry. The Weasley boys don't seem to participate in anything much with her, and Mr. Weasley is mainly interested in talking to her as her parents are Muggles and she's a hive of Muggle-related info. Then there's Ginny and Mrs. Weasley - in GoF, we see them giggling over a love potion and at the Quidditch World Cup Ginny is never too far behind Hermione, but that could be because they are the only females and are sharing a tent. I think that her relationship with Ginny will strengthen in the next three books, but that said, it is very much a friendship and bond that is far from solid. And Mrs. Weasley, although she apologises, almost turns against her in GoF when Rita Skeeter writes her newsarticle about Hermione dumping Harry, prompting a feeling from me that Mrs. Weasley, when it comes to Hermione, is very much in the same boat as Hagrid - that without her son and Harry as buffers, there probably wouldn't be much there. Then there's Draco - where to begin? Shippers would argue that their dynamic is based on a mutual attraction, while non-shippers would say that he's just a racist pushed into ideals by his dastardly father. It would be hard to argue that their encounters weren't interesting - what with name-calling and slapping and threats - but its hardly substantial. Still, it's the closest she has to an outside relationship, romantic or not! Okay, okay I think I have a point - for a girl who seems so knowledgeble and confident in her studies, Hermione seems to be extremely shy and unassured. With that said, I think GoF was without a doubt the Age of Hermione, with the realisation that a boy (Krum) might find her attractive, Ron may have a thing for her (which ever way you look at it) and, of course, the infamous kiss on the last page. Maybe she is realising that there are people outside of Ron and Harry (in shape of Ginny and even Krum) and that she is an important part in Ron and Harry's lives, regardless of their constant snipes at each other or fights. Hermione, I think, in the next books will grow out of her shyness and really step forth as a force at Hogwarts. JKR can't keep painting this picture of a feisty, saucy bookworm who is both emotionally and socially stunted - it just doesn't work. I hope that made sense. What does everyone think? Oh, and I'm Amanda - I'm new and thought I'd jump in head first. Hi! -- Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From smellee17 at hotmail.com Sun Sep 8 06:23:25 2002 From: smellee17 at hotmail.com (smellee17) Date: Sun, 08 Sep 2002 06:23:25 -0000 Subject: Wand Symbolism Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43778 I have been following all the posts about the symbolism of the wood of the wands, and I found it fascinating. According to a web site, holly (Harry's wand) symbolizes protection, anti-lightning, luck and dream magic. I don't know about that anti-lighting part, because Harry does have that lightning scar. Dream magic works: Harry's dream at the beginning and end of GoF could fit. Voldemort's wand is made of yew, which supposedly relates to raising the dead. Any thoughts? Finally, Lily's mahogany wand is also anti-lightning and mountains? I am not sure how wood symbolizes mountains, but thats what the site says. The site is www.photovault.com/Link/PlantsHerbsSymbolism.html signed smellee From vixinalizardqueen at hotmail.com Sun Sep 8 10:36:50 2002 From: vixinalizardqueen at hotmail.com (vixinalizardqueen) Date: Sun, 08 Sep 2002 10:36:50 -0000 Subject: Snape vs. Dumbledore? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43779 I was reading PoA for the 200,000,000th time yesterday (as you do) when I noticed something quite interesting which I haven't really given much thought to before. At the end of the book, whilst Snape was talking to Fudge about how "he" "saved the day"(!!!), Snape comes incredibly close to actually making a negative comment about Dumbledore. Sorry, I can't remember exactly what is was, but it something to do with how he was worried how Dumbledore would treat Harry's role in the incident. Ok, not exactly an earth-shattering criticism, but considering what Snape owes Dumbledore (for his trust in him, etc) it was a bit too-close for comfort. Anyway, it made me begin to wonder about Snape's true feelings for Dumbledore, and where his loyalties actually lie. Point 1:- If it *is* true that Snape is after the DADA job, then obviously he'd be a little miffed that he hasn't been considered, especially after the disasters which have occurred through Dumbledore's appointments for the position in the past. Point 2:- No secret that Snape detests Harry, whilst Dumbledore pretty much favours him (giving him so many chances after bending the rules, etc. Ok, even if things have usually turned out for the best, I almost agree with Snape that any other student would be expelled after taking so many dangerous risks and disobeying orders so much). I cannot believe that Dumbledore's preferential treatment of Harry has not hit a nerve of Snape's. Point 3:- Considering Malfoy, and the average Slytherin's dislike of "mudbloods" entering the school, it is hard to believe that Snape agrees with this policy. Point 4:- Dumbledore's affinity for Sirius, and the fact that Dumbledore didn't even expell him after the prank which nearly cost Snape his life. Ok, to an average person this wouldn't really weigh up against the trust that Dumbledore has put in Snape, and the secret thing which obviously leads to this trust, and is possibly a bond between the two. However, Snape is definitely not an average person. We have seen that he holds grudges (boy, does he hold grudges!!!) for an exceedingly long time (he even dislikes Harry because of his FATHER and his treatment of him!!!). With the imminent split between the Dumbledore faction, and the Fudge faction at the end of GoF, it will be very interesting to see where Snape's loyalties lie. Even if he isn't a DE, he could still join the Fudge camp, and possibly campaign for a new Headmaster of Hogwarts (possibly even himself?). He's (apparently!!!!) gone to do Dumbledore's bidding for the moment, but only time will tell. The Lizard Queen (who feels she has rambled enough for one night;)) From meboriqua at aol.com Sun Sep 8 13:03:07 2002 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Sun, 08 Sep 2002 13:03:07 -0000 Subject: DADA instructors & Karkaroff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43780 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "cindysphynx" wrote: > See, I've also been wondering if Dumbledore has had a problem that > his past DADA teachers taught a while and then figured the better > opportunities were on Voldemort's team. > > Why? Well, I think Karkaroff used to be a DADA teacher for > Dumbledore before he joined up with Voldemort. He certainly seems > to have some prior connection to Hogwars. Look at Karkaroff's warm > greeting for Dumbledore upon his arrival at Hogwarts: > > "Dumbledore!" he called heartily as he walked up the slope. "How > are you, my dear fellow, how are you?". . . > > "Dear old Hogwarts," [Karkaroff] said, looking up at the castle and > smiling. . . "How good it is to be here, how good . . . " > > Sounds to me like a former colleague returning to the place where he > taught. Also, if Karkaroff is headmaster at Durmstrang, isn't it > likely he obtained some teaching experience somewhere?> Sorry to snip so much here, but I wanted to get in all of Cindy's comments. I like the thought that Karkaroff was once a teacher at Hogwarts, but did you really believe he was serious when he greeted Dumbledore "warmly"? Or that he was happy to return to "Dear old Hogwarts"? I only ask this because I got the feeling right away that Karkaroff was less than pleased to be on the grounds of Hogwarts. Either way, it fits with your theory, Cindy, because Karkaroff may have been asked to leave Hogwarts or may have chosen to leave to pursue his DE studies more privately. Karkaroff seems to have a habit of running for the hills when things get hot. --jenny from ravenclaw, who will be surprised if Karkaroff is not the coward referred to by Voldemort because no one seems a coward more than he *********************************************** From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Sun Sep 8 14:09:14 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb P) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 07:09:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape vs. Dumbledore? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020908140914.29721.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43781 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "vixinalizardqueen" wrote: > At the end of the book, whilst Snape was talking to Fudge about > how "he" "saved the day"(!!!), Snape comes incredibly close to > actually making a negative comment about Dumbledore. Sorry, I > can't remember exactly what is was, but it something to do with > how he was worried how Dumbledore would treat Harry's role in the > incident. > > Ok, not exactly an earth-shattering criticism, but considering > what Snape owes Dumbledore (for his trust in him, etc) it was a > bit too-close for comfort. Anyway, it made me begin to wonder > about Snape's true feelings for Dumbledore, and where his loyalties > actually lie. I think it is useful to contrast Snape's attitude toward Dumbledore with Hagrid's. We see repeatedly (the first time is very early in the first book, when Vernon Dursley dares to say something less-than-complimentary about Dumbledore) that Hagrid does not take ANY criticism or perceived slight of Dumbledore lying down. He speaks deferentially to him, saying, "Professor Dumbledore, sir." He stops just short of tugging on his forelock. This is despite being about sixty-five years old, which is to say, about thirty years older than Snape. Now, when it comes to Hagrid, one might say he is an emotionally-arrested thirteen-year-old, due to his expulsion, but still--you'd think after about fifty years he might finally address Dumbledore as a peer, as Snape usually does. (And McGonagall, and Lupin, and just about everyone else on the staff.) Sorry, didn't mean this to be all about Hagrid. Anyway, there are many implications that Snape, like Hagrid, was given refuge (sanctuary?) at Hogwarts by Dumbledore and forgiven for things most people wouldn't forgive. However, unlike Hagrid, he does not feel that this means he must worship the ground Dumbledore walks on and never criticize his headmaster, ever. In a way, I think this is an indication that Snape and Dumbledore are far better friends than Hagrid and Dumbledore. They obviously have disagreements, but it hasn't meant a parting of the ways. In fact, when he needs him most, Dumbledore knows he can trust Snape to do what is necessary, despite great danger. While Snape does frequently disagree with Dumbledore, I get the impression that when Albus has made a final decision about something, Snape does not fight him. > Point 1:- If it *is* true that Snape is after the DADA job, then > obviously he'd be a little miffed that he hasn't been considered, > especially after the disasters which have occurred through > Dumbledore's appointments for the position in the past. This is a big "if," considering that the source was Percy Weasley, who, as a Gryffindor, probably doesn't much care for Snape. This may also have been some projecting on Percy's part, as we learn later how ambitious he is. After all, if he were in Snape's position, he'd probably think the DADA job was a better post. I think this statment says far more about Percy than it does about Snape. > Point 2:- No secret that Snape detests Harry, whilst Dumbledore > pretty much favours him (giving him so many chances after bending > the rules, etc. Ok, even if things have usually turned out for the > best, I almost agree with Snape that any other student would be > expelled after taking so many dangerous risks and disobeying > orders so much). I cannot believe that Dumbledore's preferential > treatment of Harry has not hit a nerve of Snape's. I'm sure it has, but it could also be that Snape is of the same opinion as Dobby, who thought Harry would be better off out of the wizarding world. He certainly wouldn't have to run around saving his life if that were the case. ;) > Point 3:- Considering Malfoy, and the average Slytherin's dislike > of "mudbloods" entering the school, it is hard to believe that > Snape agrees with this policy. We don't get any indication that Snape holds anything against any student except not being a Slytherin. He treats the pure-blood non-Slytherins as badly as the Muggle-borns. > Point 4:- Dumbledore's affinity for Sirius, and the fact that > Dumbledore didn't even expell him after the prank which nearly > cost Snape his life. Again, this is an area in which Snape and Dumbledore disagree. But did he argue at the end of GoF, when Sirius was revealed to him? No, he did not. He was ready to do his duty, even understanding the dangers involved. > Ok, to an average person this wouldn't really weigh up against the > trust that Dumbledore has put in Snape, and the secret thing which > obviously leads to this trust, and is possibly a bond between the > two. > > However, Snape is definitely not an average person. We have seen > that he holds grudges (boy, does he hold grudges!!!) for an > exceedingly long time (he even dislikes Harry because of his > FATHER and his treatment of him!!!). With the imminent split > between the Dumbledore faction, and the Fudge faction at the end > of GoF, it will be very interesting to see where Snape's loyalties > lie. Even if he isn't a DE, he could still join the Fudge camp, > and possibly campaign for a new Headmaster of Hogwarts (possibly > even himself?). He's (apparently!!!!) gone to do Dumbledore's > bidding for the moment, but only time will tell. I think Snape's kissing up to Fudge was due to Snape's possibly feeling that he still needs to rehabilitate his image (since he's a former Death Eater). His words to Fudge had an undercurrent of, "Look! I'm one of the good guys! I was saving Harry Potter, for heavnen's sake!" He has quite a balancing act, frankly, since most of the time he seems obsessed with making everyone knows he favors Slytherin students above all others (perhaps to be in good standing with their parents, many of whom may have been supporters of Voldemort). Frankly, I like the fact that Snape is willing to speak his mind and serves as someone who can play devil's advocate when Dumbledore is considering courses of action. Dumbledore does not usually question Snape's teaching methods, we must remember. He respects him and trusts him. Even Hagrid, since he is always loyal to the headmaster, told the Trio that they were crazy for suspecting Snape was up to something. I think, however, that JKR making him unrelentingly unlikable is just her way of continuing to make people (most the Trio) doubt Snape, since she loves her red herrings. As a result, Snape is the last person I would expect to turn out villainous. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eloiseherisson at aol.com Sun Sep 8 14:35:26 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 10:35:26 EDT Subject: DADA and Karkaroff/ Snape vs. Dumbledore? Message-ID: <14b.13b0c1b5.2aacba2e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43782 Barb has posted whilst I was writing this. Sorry if there are major overlaps. Cindy: <>I think Karkaroff used to be a DADA teacher for Dumbledore before he joined up with Voldemort. He certainly seems to have some prior connection to Hogwars. Look at Karkaroff's warm greeting for Dumbledore upon his arrival at Hogwarts: "Dumbledore!" he called heartily as he walked up the slope. "How are you, my dear fellow, how are you?". . . "Dear old Hogwarts," [Karkaroff] said, looking up at the castle and smiling. . . "How good it is to be here, how good . . . " Sounds to me like a former colleague returning to the place where he taught. Eloise: Could be. But there are other possible explanations. Perhaps he has visited Dumbledore there before. Perhaps it has been the site of a headmasters' conference, or something. Perhaps it's just his general oiliness and is an ingratiating way of greeting Dumbledore. Perhaps he was a *student* there. I think I actually rather favour the latter, based on his lack of discernable accent. I don't know how Jim Dale reads him, but Stephen Fry reads him with strong accent which isn't supposrted by the text. Others, such as Krum, Mme Maxime and Hagrid, have their accents written in. IIRC (I think I once looked), Karkaroff's English is never written as anything other than standard, so that being brought up/educated here must be a strong possibility. Cindy again: Also, if Karkaroff is headmaster at Durmstrang, isn't it likely he obtained some teaching experience somewhere? Eloise: I would hope so! Although it's far from certain! But he could have taught at Durmstrang, as Dumbledore taught at Hogwarts. Cindy: Not only that, Dumbledore seems somewhat sympathetic to Karkaroff in the Pensieve scene. As Mad-Eye voices his anger toward Karkaroff, Dumbledore seems much more kind, disagreeing that the Ministry should hear Karkaroff's information and send him back to the dementors. Eloise: But isn't this an expression of Dumbledore's dislike of the Dementors and disapproval of the MoM's alliance with them? He doesn't actually say anything about Karkaroff. Cindy: It makes me wonder what other DEs might have been Hogwarts DADA teachers. Hmmm. ;-) Eloise: Now there's another fun game! Sort of Flying Hedgehogs in reverse! Burrowing Hedgehogs, perhaps. ;-) Cindy -- who has to wonder if Snape wants the DADA job because Snape used to have that position before Snape went Bad Eloise: Cindy, how could you? You know I have to take you up on that, don't I? You know as well as I do that there isn't a scrap of hard evidence in the books that Snape *ever* wanted the DADA position. The only canon is that statement of Percy's at the first feast, which tells us no more than that popular student opinion is that he wants the job. I won't expand as it's been argued over too many times before. The Lizard Queen: > At the end of the book, whilst Snape was talking to Fudge about how > "he" "saved the day"(!!!), Snape comes incredibly close to actually > making a negative comment about Dumbledore. Sorry, I can't remember > exactly what is was, but it something to do with how he was worried > how Dumbledore would treat Harry's role in the incident. Eloise: "...and of course Potter has always been allowed an extraordinary amount of licence by the Headmaster - " That the one? The Lizard Queen: >Anyway, it made me begin to wonder about >Snape's true feelings for Dumbledore, and where his loyalties >actually lie. Eloise: Porphyria wrote a piece about Dumbledore and Snape's relationship very recently (#43396). I disagreed with a detail of her interpretation of the end of PoA, but I can't improve on her summary: Porphyria: >What makes even more sense to me is that they just plain have a >complicated relationship where they fight and fight and misunderstand >and occasionally lash out at each other and come back to an >understanding in the end when it really matters. In other words, like >family. Marcus is right, IMO, to say that Snape will never louse up >his relationship with Dumbledore because he is, finally, an insider, >a family member, and he values this too much to lose it. In fact I >see their relationship as a bit of a microcosm of Dumbledore's speech >at the end of GoF: >This is what Snape and Dumbledore exemplify, only on a much smaller >and more intimate scale. They know they often disagree, to some >extent they appear to come from different cultures, but they also >know they are on the same side in the end and act accordingly. So >while I think that neither of them behaves perfectly well towards >each other, I also find their loyalty completely convincing and not >too hard to reconcile with their moments of hostility. The Lizard Queen: <>> > Point 1:- If it *is* true that Snape is after the DADA job, then > obviously he'd be a little miffed that he hasn't been considered, > especially after the disasters which have occurred through > Dumbledore's appointments for the position in the past. Eloise: Well, I disagree that he is. He is actually *doing* DADA, rather than teaching it. The Lizard Queen: > > Point 2:- No secret that Snape detests Harry, whilst Dumbledore > pretty much favours him (giving him so many chances after bending the > rules, > etc. Ok, even if things have usually turned out for the best, I > almost agree with Snape that any other student would be expelled after > taking so many dangerous risks and disobeying orders so much). I cannot > believe that Dumbledore's preferential treatment of Harry has not hit > a nerve of Snape's. Eloise: I'm sure it has! But, as has been noted recently, people *don't* seem to get expelled from Hogwarts. Hagrid is the only one we've heard of. The Lizard Queen: > Point 3:- Considering Malfoy, and the average Slytherin's dislike of > "mudbloods" entering the school, it is hard to believe that Snape > agrees with this policy. Eloise: Snape has never done or said *anything* as far as I recall, which indicates he has a prejudice against those not of pure wizarding blood. He unfairly favours Malfoy and his own house, for whatever reason (we don't *know* why, whether it's genuine preference, or strategy) but discriminates even handedly against everyone else! Hermione is Muggle-born, Neville is pure-blood and he apparently detests them equally! The Lizard Queen: > Point 4:- Dumbledore's affinity for Sirius, and the fact that > Dumbledore didn't even expell him after the prank which nearly cost > Snape his life. Eloise: I think he finds this *very* hard to bear: I'm sure he feels like the Prodigal's elder brother. I'm so looking forward to the team dynamics on Dumbledore's side in the next book! The Lizard Queen: > <> With the imminent split between the Dumbledore > faction, and the Fudge faction at the end of GoF, it will be very > interesting to see where Snape's loyalties lie. Even if he isn't a > DE, he could still join the Fudge camp, and possibly campaign for a new > Headmaster of Hogwarts (possibly even himself?). He's > (apparently!!!!) gone to do Dumbledore's bidding for the moment, but only > time will tell. Eloise: You're right, only time will tell. But I cannot, under any circumstances, see him joining the Fudge camp. IMHO, either he remains Ever-So-Evil and his conversion to the side of right was all a sham, or he's in with Dumbledore. He took the most enormous risk in spying against Voldemort. OK, it worked out well for him in the end, as otherwise Karkaroff would have fingered him and he'd be in Azkaban. But he didn't know that would happen. At the time, it was a risk and he must have had very good reason for doing it. He has been active on both sides. I see no reason why he would now sit on the fence, or pretend nothing was going on, which is how I interpret the Fudge faction. He has no fence to sit on. If he's not with Voldemort any more, then Voldemort is against him, whether he actively supports Dumbledore or not. The only other interpretation I can think of is that he never truly left Voldemort and always has been and remains a double agent, on nobody's side but his own, thus profiting from the protection of both sides. But I don't believe that. For one thing, I don't think Voldemort *would* truly protect him and the nature of the job means that the other DEs, even if they knew who he was, couldn't know that he was a spy, just as I am sure that Sirius et al didn't know that Snape was spying on their side. In fact, he doesn't now, if that's what he's doing. Sirius is sent from the room before Dumbledore sends Snape to do whatever he does. Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From craigf4656 at hotmail.com Sun Sep 8 14:29:08 2002 From: craigf4656 at hotmail.com (Craig Frizzell) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 09:29:08 -0500 Subject: Percy (was: Re: Snape vs. Dumbledore?) References: <20020908140914.29721.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43783 Barb P wrote: This is a big "if," considering that the source was Percy Weasley, who, as a Gryffindor, probably doesn't much care for Snape. This may also have been some projecting on Percy's part, as we learn later how ambitious he is. After all, if he were in Snape's position, he'd probably think the DADA job was a better post. I think this statment says far more about Percy than it does about Snape. I reply: This made me think of something that I hadn't thought of before - what made Percy a Gryffindor? The ambition he displays in GoF would seem to make him more likely to be a member of Slytherin. Craig --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.385 / Virus Database: 217 - Release Date: 9/4/2002 From MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Sep 8 14:29:51 2002 From: MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM (mitchbailey82) Date: Sun, 08 Sep 2002 14:29:51 -0000 Subject: Wand Symbolism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43784 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "smellee17" wrote: > Finally, Lily's mahogany wand is also anti-lightning and mountains? I > am not sure how wood symbolizes mountains, but thats what the site > says. Just a point - it's James's wand thats Mahogany - Lily's is willow Michelle From hp_fan16 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 8 15:08:41 2002 From: hp_fan16 at yahoo.com (gabrielle jones) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 08:08:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: werewolf /polyjuice (WAS Moody's eye/Polyjuice) In-Reply-To: <1031440247.3080.42365.m3@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20020908150841.75455.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43785 Jodel and Grey Wolf, each were interested in the werewolf-polyjuice thing. Both gave great ideas to the topic. But as in when Hermoine took the polyjuice containing cat hair, would there be some problem. Heirmone's transformation went horribly wrong, and she did not become a cat, or remain as a person. She grew hair all over her body and whiskers. So my question is, in the case of the werewolf, being animal part of the time, could the same problem occur? Also, would it matter if you took hair when someone was a wolf vs. a person? Gabrielle --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hp_fan16 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 8 16:07:49 2002 From: hp_fan16 at yahoo.com (gabrielle jones) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 09:07:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Binns (WAS booklearning) In-Reply-To: <1031440247.3080.42365.m3@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20020908160749.10594.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43786 I think there's may be a bit more to Binns and his Class. JKR doesn't really mention things that aren't important. We barely ever hear anything about astronomy because of just that. So then, why do we hear of History? -Binns' class usually a full of little hints, clues, or bits of info pertaining to the plot. Goblin revolutions, werewolf code of conduct, (things other's have mentioned, I really should do some of my own research) little thing like that, which would give us some clues if we wanted to pay attention. - And, about the way he teaches his classes. True, he is the stereotypical wizard version of the boring old history teacher, but the way he teaches is important. Thanks to Hermoine's wonderful pay attention capabilities, she picked up the but when professor Binns mentions the CoS. No one else caught that. If he had been really animated, then the whole school would have realized it. It makes for a better plot though, that they hadn't. Also, if Binns was some wonderful teacher, he may become Harry's favorite, which would take emphasis away from DADA teachers. History is taught they it is, so as *not* to draw attention. History *is* important. Gabrielle~ Who when joining, intended to be a lurker, but is just so darn bad at keeping quiet!~ --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kaityf at jorsm.com Sun Sep 8 16:13:27 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Sun, 08 Sep 2002 11:13:27 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's Friends In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020908101346.03efb3c0@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> No: HPFGUIDX 43787 >Amanda wrote: >I agree. Hermione's lack of outside friendship at Hogwarts almost seems to be >serving as a facet of her personality - like she's so bossy and know-it-all >that very few students can stand her. The few main relationships we get to >see that involve Hermione are the trio, Hagrid, the Weasleys and strangely, >Draco. From my experience, it's not unusual for bossy, know-it-all types to have few friends, especially close friends. Even Ron and Harry most likely would not have befriended her had they not all shared the experience with the troll in the girls' bathroom. Even so, I can't recall any evidence to suggest anyone other than Ron couldn't stand Hermione. Snape doesn't seem to care for her, but he's a teacher and not likely to be her friend anyway. Some of it, I think, is the know-it-all letting her hair down long enough to let people get close. Hermione did that in the girls' bathroom when she lied for Ron and Harry. That gave both Ron and Harry a chance to see another part of Hermione that they could be friends with. On Hermione's part, she could certainly see that Ron and Harry were both brave and concerned enough about her to risk their lives to save her. That would certainly open a person up to friendship. Amanda continues: > And Mrs. Weasley, although she apologises, almost turns against >her in GoF when Rita Skeeter writes her newsarticle about Hermione dumping >Harry, prompting a feeling from me that Mrs. Weasley, when it comes to >Hermione, is very much in the same boat as Hagrid - that without her son and >Harry as buffers, there probably wouldn't be much there. I didn't like it when Mrs. Weasley turned on Hermione. On one level it was rather humorous, but I didn't like what it said about Mrs. Weasley. On the other hand, I think Molly knows Harry better than she knows Hermione, Harry having spent more time with the Weasleys than Hermione has. Also, I'm sure Molly feels more protective toward Harry than toward Hermione since Harry lost his parents while Hermione still has hers. Amanda again: > Then there's Draco - It would be hard to >argue that their encounters weren't interesting - what with name-calling and >slapping and threats - but its hardly substantial. Still, it's the closest >she has to an outside relationship, romantic or not! I don't know that I'd call what Hermione and Draco have as a relationship myself. They interact, but one can interact with even strangers. But be that as it may, I think Hermione's encounters with Malfoy tell us a great deal about Hermione's growth, development and personality. In the bathroom/troll scene, we are shocked to hear Hermione lie to teachers. Whether it is justified under the circumstances or not is, I think, a separate issue. It does tell us something about her, though. We see more and more of what lies beneath the surface with Hermione and it seems to me that her encounters with Draco give us a glimpse of the inner Hermione, the non-know-it-all. More Amanda: >Okay, okay I think I have a point - for a girl who seems so knowledgeble and >confident in her studies, Hermione seems to be extremely shy and unassured. I'm having a hard time seeing Hermione as shy. I could go along with the unassured part, but I can't think of any evidence to suggest she is shy. Quite the contrary. Amanda: >With that said, I think GoF was without a doubt the Age of Hermione, with the >realisation that a boy (Krum) might find her attractive, Ron may have a thing >for her (which ever way you look at it) and, of course, the infamous kiss on >the last page. Maybe she is realising that there are people outside of Ron >and Harry (in shape of Ginny and even Krum) and that she is an important part >in Ron and Harry's lives, regardless of their constant snipes at each other >or fights. I definitely would agree that Hermione is beginning to develop outside of the sphere of the trio. How much of this, though, is typical adolescent development? I would hope that a 14 year old girl would start realizing that there are people outside her circle of friends and that the importance may be different. Amanda goes on: >Hermione, I think, in the next books will grow out of her shyness >and really step forth as a force at Hogwarts. JKR can't keep painting this >picture of a feisty, saucy bookworm who is both emotionally and socially >stunted - it just doesn't work. Interesting. Of course, as I said, I don't think Hermione is shy. I don't think I would exactly call her emotionally or socially stunted either. I can't think of any evidence that shows her to be emotionally stunted especially. For example, I think the scene in PP/SP after the chess game, when Hermione tells Harry he's a great wizard shows her to be emotionally sophisticated. Now she may often hide her feelings (and I don't really think even that's necessarily true), but that doesn't make her emotionally stunted. There may be a better argument for her being socially stunted, but I'm more likely to say that she has developed some behaviors that are not conducive to foster closeness with peers. To me, "stunted" means that a person has stopped developing at some point and I just don't see that with Hermione. \ I agree that Hermione can't remain the exact same kind of person, but then I would hope all the young characters would start changing in some ways. If they all remain exactly as they started out, I'd be very disappointed. People change quite a bit from age 11 to 17. Their core personality may remain the same, but their behaviors and attitudes can certainly change. I think Hermione has been changing already in GoF, more so than any of the other younger characters. Carol, whose linguistic background causes her to constantly question word meanings From deejay435 at buckeye-express.com Sun Sep 8 16:52:15 2002 From: deejay435 at buckeye-express.com (Denise Jurski) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 12:52:15 -0400 Subject: Hermione's Friendships References: <1031485737.1591.34459.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001001c25758$16506020$6501a8c0@buckeyecablesystem.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43788 Amanda wrote: >And Mrs. Weasley, although she apologizes, almost turns against >her in GoF when Rita Skeeter writes her newsarticle about Hermione dumping >Harry, prompting a feeling from me that Mrs. Weasley, when it comes to >Hermione, is very much in the same boat as Hagrid - that without her son and >Harry as buffers, there probably wouldn't be much there. I think Mrs. Weasley sees Harry almost as a surrogate son. Probably because of her squishy soft heart, and his orphan status. Hermione, I think, doesn't need Mrs. Weasley as much, so she hasn't reached the status of surrogate daughter. She's merely a friend of her children to Mrs. Weasley. And Mrs. Weasley is a very protective mother and therefore lashed out at Hermione when she believed, however foolishly, that Hermione had hurt Harry. I don't agree however, that Hagrid's relationship with Hermione is the same as Mrs. Weasley's. Remember that Hagrid was the only one who stood by Hermione in PoA when Harry and Ron were being cold toward her. I got the impression that he made sure to see her often, check on her, spend time with her. I think he would have done this regardless of the fact that she was helping him with Buckbeak's hearing. He scolded Harry and Ron about how they were treating her, and was the one willing to understand why Hermione made the choices she did. I think Hagrid would have a caring relationship with Hermione with or without Ron and Harry. Harry may have been how they met, but I don't think their continued bond relies on Harry or Ron. Denise~also posting for the first time. From olivia at rocketbandit.com Sun Sep 8 18:08:36 2002 From: olivia at rocketbandit.com (Olivia) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 14:08:36 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Percy (was: Re: Snape vs. Dumbledore?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000e01c25762$c01f8d60$9ca2e3d8@agstme.adelphia.net> No: HPFGUIDX 43789 Craig said: This made me think of something that I hadn't thought of before - what made Percy a Gryffindor? The ambition he displays in GoF would seem to make him more likely to be a member of Slytherin. But Percy is a goody two-shoes in every sense of the word. He follows the rules, respects authority, works to turn things in not on the deadline but before, and refuses to give even his younger brother any inside information on his boss. A Slytherin may be known for ambition, but from what we've seen, it's blind ambition. They'll do anything and everything to get what they want whereas Percy wants to succeed, but he'll do it by following the rules. >From what we've seen so far, he's very much a Gryffindor as he's portrayed a lot like Hermione. Smart, follows the rules, respects authority, and a little bit bossy and pompous. As it's been discussed before, this could lead to problems for Percy by being too careful following the rules and doing what he thinks is right. If Harry has shown us anything it's that sometimes you have to bend and break rules to do what's right. Olivia. From rvotaw at i-55.com Sun Sep 8 19:00:43 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 14:00:43 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's Friends/ Tempting Harry / DADA teachers/ Wand woods/ Percy References: Message-ID: <006e01c2576a$0920f560$009fcdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 43790 Olivia Gray writes: > Hermione and Ron maybe his closest friends but I hesitate to say they > were his only friends. Harry seems close to all of his dormmates, > Dean, Seamus, and especially Neville (Big plans for that boy, I can > feel it). Also all of the Weasleys,Hagrid, and the Quidditch team. I really don't see Harry as close to any of his dormmates, considering how much time they must spend together. Other than Ron, of course. Particularly Neville. If he were close to Neville, surely he'd have thought to ask him about his parents at some point? Seeing as Harry felt rather ashamed that he'd never asked when he found out from Dumbledore, I get the impression if they'd have been closer he would have. Carol writes: > I didn't like it when Mrs. Weasley turned on Hermione. On one level it was > rather humorous, but I didn't like what it said about Mrs. Weasley. On the > other hand, I think Molly knows Harry better than she knows Hermione, Harry > having spent more time with the Weasleys than Hermione has. Also, I'm sure > Molly feels more protective toward Harry than toward Hermione since Harry > lost his parents while Hermione still has hers. The way I saw it was that no one, not even someone she seemed to like, such as Hermione, is going to stand between Molly and Harry. She will protect him against whatever and whoever. Regardless. She didn't really care that Hermione was one of Harry's best friends, if there was even the most remote chance that what was said was true, she was going to side with Harry. Jo Serenadust writes: > I wasn't positive about this either until I checked the book, but it > appears that the bit about bringing Harry's parents back was only > added to the movie version and I remember being jarred by it at the > time. It definitely isn't in the book. Ah, thank you for clearing this up. I thought it sounded rather, well, "Star Wars." :) Constance Vigilance writes: > My understanding was that Quirrel was the DADA teacher, and > presumably a good one, for some years until he decided to go on > sabbatical for some practical experience - with the results we all > know. Then after he came back as Quirrelmort, we don't know how many > years prior to Harry's introduction that he taught at Hogwarts. > Presumably, he was there for at least one year previous, because > Percy was familiar with him. Based on teaching at Hogwarts for a few > years, then going on sabbatical for a few years, then teaching at > Hogwarts again for at least two years, we can assume that Quirrel is > likely older than he looks. Basically, I'm disputing the theory that > Quirrel is young. Technically speaking, let's theorize for a moment that Quirrell was Snape's age. 35. He'd have been out of school for 17 years. Suppose he wanders around doing whatever wizards do for five years. Then gets on at Hogwarts. He could still have been teaching there for 12 years. That's a good bit of experience. And I think it was stated somewhere that he took a year off (one, not more) to have some real world experience. Which makes me think he didn't have much real world experience to begin with. Constance Vigilance again: > Lupin? I don't think anyone is accusing him of being too young to > teach. Therefore, I don't think any of the DADA teachers have been > particularly young. No, but he seems to look old for his age. Young face, graying hair and so on. Besides, he's probably what, 35? 37? Not too young to teach, if Snape's not too young to teach. Smellee writes: > Finally, Lily's mahogany wand is also anti-lightning and mountains? I > am not sure how wood symbolizes mountains, but thats what the site > says. That's James' wand that was mahogany. Lily's was willow. A symbol of mourning and forsaken love. Olivia writes: > A Slytherin may be known for ambition, but from what we've > seen, it's blind ambition. They'll do anything and everything to get what > they want whereas Percy wants to succeed, but he'll do it by following the > rules. I think that's the key difference between Gryffindor Percy and the Slytherins. Slytherins will "use any means to achieve their ends." Percy is a stickler for rules. Of course, he's got himself in a bit of trouble now, as his boss has turned up dead. We'll see if he stays that way or not. Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Sun Sep 8 20:06:57 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb P) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 13:06:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Percy (was: Re: Snape vs. Dumbledore?) In-Reply-To: <000e01c25762$c01f8d60$9ca2e3d8@agstme.adelphia.net> Message-ID: <20020908200657.34017.qmail@web13003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43791 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Olivia" wrote: > Craig said: > This made me think of something that I hadn't thought of before - > what made Percy a Gryffindor? The ambition he displays in GoF > would seem to make him more likely to be a member of Slytherin. > > But Percy is a goody two-shoes in every sense of the word. He > follows the rules, respects authority, works to turn things in not > on the deadline but before, and refuses to give even his younger > brother any inside information on his boss. Good point, except for the fact that I don't see what any of that has to do with being a Gryffindor. I think we HAVE seen Percy do things that do qualify him for Gryffindor status, such as the way he took his duties to protect the other students very seriously, even when he thought a murderer was in the castle, and the way he grimly took out his wand and joined his father and two older brothers in investigating what was going on at the campground at the World Cup. Percy is clearly not a coward. > From what we've seen so far, he's very much a Gryffindor as he's > portrayed a lot like Hermione. Smart, follows the rules, respects > authority, and a little bit bossy and pompous. Hermione's a little more likable and slightly less rigid about rules. After all, it was in her first year that she helped Harry smuggle a dragon up a tower! I'm having a hard time picturing Percy doing that. > As it's been discussed before, this could lead to problems for > Percy by being too careful following the rules and doing what he > thinks is right. Actually, this has already happened. Percy was rigidly following all of the instructions coming from his boss (which were really coming from Moody/Crouch). Someone at the Ministry who was less trusting picked up on something and decided the Crouch situation was fishy. (I'm wondering who, now, since I think it might not have been Fudge or Arthur Weasley. Maybe JKR will work this person into the story?) Of course, Crouch, Jr. needed to keep his dad alive so that when Percy sent owls to the Crouch home there wouldn't be a problem. (I'm thinking that owls can't be sent to dead people and the mail would just bounce back, but I don't know whether JKR has thought this out.) Since we've already seen Percy being far too trusting and gullible in GoF, I hope to see him looking sharper in book five. Of course, he could just turn into a young, red-haired version of the real Alastor Moody. I can just hear Percy marching around, barking, "CONSTANT VIGILANCE! I once spent months receiving owls from an impostor! You can't trust anyone!" --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eloiseherisson at aol.com Sun Sep 8 20:07:22 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 16:07:22 EDT Subject: FILK: Three Profs from Hogwarts School are We Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43792 Inspired by the recent thread on the inadequacies of DADA teaching at Hogwarts, Professors Quirrell, Lockhart and 'Moody' present, 'Three Profs from Hogwarts School are We', (to the melody of 'Three Little Maids', from Gilbert and Sullivan's 'The Mikado'.) Prof. Lockhart, you should know, has donned special Japanese robes for the occasion and keeps fluttering his eyelashes, in what he seems to think is a winning way, from behind his fan. The other two aren't at all impressed by this and keep throwing him evil glances. The Three: Three profs from Hogwarts School are we, Experts in Dark Arts and sorcery, None of us quite what we seem to be, Three profs from Hogwarts School! 'Moody': I turned my father into a bone (Evil chuckle) Quirrell: I only want the Philosopher's Stone (Evil chuckle) Lockhart: Look at my hair! Have you got a comb? (Flirtatious giggle behind fan) The Three: Three profs from Hogwarts School! The Three: Teachers, whose pupils, all unwary, Studying at Hogwarts Seminary, Think that we're good; the truth's contrary - Three profs from Hogwarts School! Three profs from Hogwarts School! Lockhart: One of us just doesn't have a clue! Quirrell: Two of us working for You Know Who! 'Moody': Three of us bent on deceiving you! The Three: Three profs from Hogwarts School! Three profs from Hogwarts School! Quirrell: From three Hogwarts profs take one away. Lockhart: Two Hogwarts profs remain, and they - 'Moody' Didn't survive very long, they say - The Three: Three profs from Hogwarts School! Three profs from Hogwarts School! The Three: Teachers whose pupils, all unwary, Studying at Hogwarts Seminary, Think that we're good -the truth's contrary - Three profs from Hogwarts School! Three profs from Hogwarts School! Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eloiseherisson at aol.com Sun Sep 8 20:35:09 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 16:35:09 EDT Subject: Quirrell (was: Re: DADA teachers) Message-ID: <170.1368a813.2aad0e7d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43793 Constance Vigilance writes: > My understanding was that Quirrel was the DADA teacher, and > presumably a good one, for some years until he decided to go on > sabbatical for some practical experience - with the results we all > know. Then after he came back as Quirrelmort, we don't know how many > years prior to Harry's introduction that he taught at Hogwarts. > Presumably, he was there for at least one year previous, because > Percy was familiar with him. This is a thorny one. At least, the evidence is rather contradictory. The way Hagrid speaks about Quirrell, it does sound as if he'd been teaching at Hogwarts, went off in sabbatical and came back. But Hagrid also says that Lockhart was the only applicant for the post as no one had lasted long for a while and the job was thought to be jinxed. I seem to remember some people suggesting that Quirrell's was a new appointment. At any rate, he can't have taught there for very long. I think that Voldemort's speech in the graveyard tells us that Quirrell only brought him back to Britain the summer before Harry started. I say *think*, because the canon's been nicked for bedtime reading again! That, of course makes Hagrid's statement to Harry that he was now afraid of his students rather problematic, as presumably he hasn't had to teach any yet. But, as you say Percy was familiar with him, which is added evidence that he *did* teach at Hogwarts prior to his sabbatical. I don't remember anyone bringing that up before. Eloise P.S. I just *love* your name! From catlady at wicca.net Sun Sep 8 20:41:07 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (catlady_de_los_angeles) Date: Sun, 08 Sep 2002 20:41:07 -0000 Subject: Wand woods In-Reply-To: <006e01c2576a$0920f560$009fcdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43794 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > > That's James' wand that was mahogany. Lily's was willow. A symbol > of mourning and forsaken love. Willow was a symbol of mourning on Victorian mourning broaches of cameos of a widow weeping by a tombstone with a yew or a willow in the background. I always assumed, willow because it also is weeping, which looks good in the picture. But there is a whole 'nother tradition of Willow being evil, such as Tolkien's Old Man Willow who tried to eat up the hobbits until Tom Bombadil rescued them. That works with the etymology that was believed until recently ... "willow" and "witch" were thought to come from the same Indo-European root "weik" meaning "to bend" as "wicker" (which is made of willow withies, right?), "weak" and "wicked". But willow isn't wicked; it kindly relieves pain (aspirin comes from willow bark). Whatever JKR meant by willow, Ron's wand is willow with a unicorn hair. He has wand wood as a similarity to Lily, and wand core as a similarity to Cedric. From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Sun Sep 8 22:28:41 2002 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (coriolan_cmc2001) Date: Sun, 08 Sep 2002 22:28:41 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Let=92s_Not_Be_Phased,_We=92re_Giants_(filk)?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43795 I finally came up with a filk to go along with Red Scharlach's illustration: http://home.att.net/~coriolan/gofire.htm Let's Not Be Phased, We're Giants (from GoF) (To the tune of Let's Face the Music and Dance, from the 1935 Astaire-Rogers film Follow the Fleet) Dedicated to Nicole Hear the original at: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Towers/5227/audio.html THE SCENE: Before Hogwarts Castle. HAGRID persuades MADAME MAXIME to join him on his diplomatic mission to the realm of the giants HAGRID There will be trouble ahead, Because there's `Eaters and Voldy's Renewing his stance Let's not be phased, we're Giants. MAXIME There will be mountains to climb Before we wind up over the hill, Let's now go forth with aplomb And journey to meet your Mom BOTH Oh, now we'll face the unknown But we both have big bones, so then.... Dumble's requesting this quest To form alliance with giants Our own kith and kin Let's let the magic begin..... (Exit, arm in arm) - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From wmginnypowell at msn.com Sun Sep 8 23:39:38 2002 From: wmginnypowell at msn.com (merimom3) Date: Sun, 08 Sep 2002 23:39:38 -0000 Subject: Friendships in WW Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43796 People have been discussing whether Harry or Hermione have enough friends, how well they get along with others at school, etc. But I was noticing, there don't seem to be a lot of close friendships in the WW. I am specifically thinking about the Weasleys. They have Harry over all the time, and Hermione pretty often. How come the rest of the kids don't have their own friends over? Why doesn't Ginny have any girlfriends in her own year? Yes, she's friends with Hermione, but is she the only one? She should be having sleepovers all summer at her age. I suppose you could say the twins have each other, but wouldn't Lee Jordan have loved to sit in the Top Box with them? Is there some unspoken age limit over which guys can't have sleepovers anymore? Percy not having Penelope over is, I think, understandable. But does he not have any male friends? Surely Bill and/or Charlie have significant others that would visit or at least be mentioned? My point is, for those who think Harry or Hermione have too few friends, as far as we know, they have MORE friends than anyone else. Real, best friend-friends, I mean, not just see-you-in-class friends. (I'm excluding Draco and Crabbe/Goyle, as I wouldn't call what they have friendship.) Is this indicative of something in the WW, or just an artifact of JKs focus? Ginny, who believes in few-good rather than many-shallow friendships From olivia at rocketbandit.com Sun Sep 8 18:52:00 2002 From: olivia at rocketbandit.com (Olivia) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 14:52:00 -0400 Subject: Percy In-Reply-To: <006e01c2576a$0920f560$009fcdd1@istu757> Message-ID: <000f01c25768$d0777460$9ca2e3d8@agstme.adelphia.net> No: HPFGUIDX 43797 Richelle said: "I think that's the key difference between Gryffindor Percy and the Slytherins. Slytherins will "use any means to achieve their ends." Percy is a stickler for rules. Of course, he's got himself in a bit of trouble now, as his boss has turned up dead. We'll see if he stays that way or not." Exactly my thinking. When I made my argument, I tried to stick to what we've seen so far and not do too much theorizing about what could happen in the future. Surely Crouch's death will have some sort of effect on him. Whether he takes the good path or the bad one, and if he does take the bad path, if he sees the error of his ways and reverts back to the good one in the end. If he chooses good, either immediately or eventually, we'll know he's truly a Gryffindor. But thus far, I think the Sorting Hat put Percy in the right place. Olivia From rvotaw at i-55.com Mon Sep 9 02:01:09 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 21:01:09 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Friendships in WW/ Wands References: Message-ID: <005a01c257a4$c64726c0$399ccdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 43798 Ginny wrote: > People have been discussing whether Harry or Hermione have enough > friends, how well they get along with others at school, etc. But I > was noticing, there don't seem to be a lot of close friendships in > the WW. I am specifically thinking about the Weasleys. They have > Harry over all the time, and Hermione pretty often. How come the > rest of the kids don't have their own friends over? The way I see it, Harry gets to go to the Weasleys because they know he has no where else to go. Mrs. Weasley would do just about anything to get him away from the Dursleys. The Weasleys know that Hermione is Harry's other best friend, and I feel that she's included more for Harry than for Ron. Harry is there as an escape from the Dursleys not only because he's Ron's friend. The other Weasley kids have friends, I believe, but they don't *need* to get away from home as much as Harry does. As far the twins, as is often the case with twins, they tend to have less friends simply because they do have each other. And it's harder for others to become their friends because they are so close. They have "friends" but don't need as many close friends. Catlady wrote: > Whatever JKR meant by willow, Ron's wand is willow with a unicorn > hair. He has wand wood as a similarity to Lily, and wand core as a > similarity to Cedric. Which I must say does not sound good for Ron. Since Lily, whose wand (I will add, at least her first wand. We don't know about the second, if there indeed was a second) was made of the same wood as Ron's, sacrificed herself to save Harry. And those are the only two wands made of willow mentioned, and the only two wands having the same wood type. And the idea of Ron sacrificing himself to save Harry frequently comes up. Second, Ron and Cedric had the same wand core. I believe the only wands mentioned to have the same core, unicorn hair. And Cedric was killed basically because he was a nice guy. That oversimplifies it, I know, but that's the underlying factor. And Ron is, well, a nice guy. My mother is still clinging to the opinion that perhaps the two would cancel each other out and Ron would not die. She's not really into Harry Potter at all, but she likes Ron. :) Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From kkearney at students.miami.edu Mon Sep 9 02:03:49 2002 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 02:03:49 -0000 Subject: Friendships in WW In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43799 Ginny wrote: > People have been discussing whether Harry or Hermione have enough > friends, how well they get along with others at school, etc. But I > was noticing, there don't seem to be a lot of close friendships in > the WW. I am specifically thinking about the Weasleys. They have > Harry over all the time, and Hermione pretty often. How come the > rest of the kids don't have their own friends over? Well, we don't know that she doesn't, do we? The books are told from Harry's point of view, so we never see Ginny when she's not with her family (either all the Weasleys at home, or when she talk to Ron with school). > Why doesn't Ginny have any girlfriends in her own year? Yes, she's > friends with Hermione, but is she the only one? She should be > having > sleepovers all summer at her age. Again, we don't know that she doesn't. She seems to be a pretty happy, well-adjusted girl. We've never seen her complain about a lack of friends, or seem jealous of Harry being invited, so I'd assume she has friends who do visit her; we just haven't seen them (yet). > I suppose you could say the twins have each other, ahhhh! This doesn't relate to the post really, but please don't assume twins don't need outside friends because they have each other. People always seem to assume this, and it's completely misguided. > but wouldn't Lee > Jordan have loved to sit in the Top Box with them? Is there some > unspoken age limit over which guys can't have sleepovers anymore? I think the reason Harry is often invited to the Weasleys is because Molly and Arthur know the sort of home life he has. Would Lee Jordan love to sit in the top box? Of course. But he has parents who can take him to see the match. The Weasleys aren't rich, and as much as they would like to, Molly and Arthur can't afford to bring all their children's friends to the match. They invited Harry because they knew he would never be able to see the Cup otherwise, and Hermione for the same reason (her parents are Muggles and wouldn't be able to take her). > Percy not having Penelope over is, I think, understandable. But does > he not have any male friends? > Surely Bill and/or Charlie have significant others that would visit > or at least be mentioned? Again, we haven't been offered any evidence to the contrary. We didn't meet Bill and Charlie themselves until Book 4, and we know very little about either of them. > My point is, for those who think Harry or Hermione have too few > friends, as far as we know, they have MORE friends than anyone else. > Real, best friend-friends, I mean, not just see-you-in-class > friends. (I'm excluding Draco and Crabbe/Goyle, as I wouldn't call > what they have friendship.) Is this indicative of something in the > WW, or just an artifact of JKs focus? JUst an artifact of JK's focus, in my opinion. She manages to include an amazing amount of detail about hundreds of minor characters through her writing style. But she can't really afford to sidetrack into minor characters' lives unless it directly impacts Harry's story. - Corinth, who has had to switch to a dial-up connection and can no longer keep up with this board. Very peeved. From nplyon at yahoo.com Mon Sep 9 03:17:17 2002 From: nplyon at yahoo.com (Nicole L.) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 20:17:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hermione (was Re: Harry's Friends) In-Reply-To: <1031485737.1591.34459.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20020909031717.25214.qmail@web20901.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43800 Amanda said: > > I agree. Hermione's lack of outside friendship at > Hogwarts almost seems to be > serving as a facet of her personality - like she's > so bossy and know-it-all > that very few students can stand her. The few main > relationships we get to > see that involve Hermione are the trio, Hagrid, the > Weasleys and strangely, > Draco. Her role in the Harry/Ron/Hermione dynamic is > clearly defined, of > course. Hagrid obviously adores her, but it's much > the same way he adores Ron > and Harry. The Weasley boys don't seem to > participate in anything much with > her, and Mr. Weasley is mainly interested in talking > to her as her parents > are Muggles and she's a hive of Muggle-related info. > First of all, welcome to the group! Now, for Hermione. I do think that her bossiness and know-it-all attitude probably contribute to her friendlessness at the beginning of the series (I am hesitant to generalize about the rest of the series because it seems to me that she is developing other friendships in later books, i.e. Ginny, the Ravenclaws, Krum, etc.). I also think that Hermione is very, very shy and is probably lacking in self-confidence. It seems to me that she acts like she does because she is trying to draw attention to herself, to prove to others that she is worthy of getting to know. I mean, how intimidating would it be to be in her shoes, growing up as a Muggle and not knowing anything at all about the wizarding world. I think she started out with a huge inferiority complex which I believe is decreasing over time as she is coming into her own as both a person and a witch. I think that her vigilance with regards to S.P.E.W. is a clear indication of her self-realization and her comfort with who she is as a person. 14 is a very tender age and one at which conformity is often important. At this point, though, Hermione has enough confidence in herself to champion the elves ad nauseum, making many of her classmates eager to avoid her. She believes she is in the right and it is this belief in herself that gives her the courage to follow her heart and to become actively involved in something that runs the risk of making her very unpopular. It certainly seems that her views place her firmly in the minority among witches and wizards. I also respectfully beg to differ with your assessment of Hagrid's feelings toward Hermione. I think that Hagrid knows Hermione much better than Harry and Ron do. When she is being ostracized by Ron and Harry, it is Hagrid who tells them that she is very hurt by it. He sees Harry and Ron as being in the wrong and he's siding with Hermione. It's also Hermione who devotes the most time and care to helping Hagrid with his Buckbeak defense, even though she is already stretched to the breaking point due to her studies. I think that Hagrid sees the person she is on the inside, not just the bookworm persona that Harry and Ron see from her. Hagrid has come to understand her true worth much sooner than Ron and Harry have. In fact, as much as I believe Hagrid loves Harry, I could make a case for Hermione being his favorite of the Trio. > > Then there's Ginny and Mrs. Weasley - in GoF, we see > them giggling over a > love potion and at the Quidditch World Cup Ginny is > never too far behind > Hermione, but that could be because they are the > only females and are sharing > a tent. I think that her relationship with Ginny > will strengthen in the next > three books, but that said, it is very much a > friendship and bond that is far > from solid. And Mrs. Weasley, although she > apologises, almost turns against > her in GoF when Rita Skeeter writes her newsarticle > about Hermione dumping > Harry, prompting a feeling from me that Mrs. > Weasley, when it comes to > Hermione, is very much in the same boat as Hagrid - > that without her son and > Harry as buffers, there probably wouldn't be much > there. > I see what you're saying about Mrs. Weasley but I think my views on the matter differ from yours (or perhaps I misunderstood your posting). Mrs. Weasley is extremely protective of Harry, pretty much as protective as a biological mother would be about their own offspring. I think that she likes Hermione but I don't think that she feels as strong a sense of protectiveness toward Hermione. After all, Hermione doesn't have the same need of her that Harry does; she already has two parents who seem to care very much about her. Therefor, I don't think it's that she needs Ron and Harry to serve as a buffer. I chalk her reaction to Hermione up to her overprotectiveness where Harry is concerned. This overprotectiveness blinds her so much that she takes everything she knows about Hermione and sets it aside in favor of buying into Rita Skeeter's lies. As for Ginny and Hermione, I agree with you there. I think that those two will become very close, especially if Ron and Hermione do become romantically attached. Ginny must be dying for female companionship and I think that initially she and Hermione become friends because they are both girls but I think that their friendship will grow and deepen into something more significant than that. While Hermione is close to Ron and Harry, I have always seen her as something of a third wheel in the relationship. If I had to name Harry's best friend, I would say without hesitation that it is Ron. I think that Ginny and Hermione will become best friends as well, with the result that, although Ron and Harry will still be close to them, they will be somewhat out of the loop that will exist between the two girls. > Then there's Draco - where to begin? Shippers would > argue that their dynamic > is based on a mutual attraction, while non-shippers > would say that he's just > a racist pushed into ideals by his dastardly father. > It would be hard to > argue that their encounters weren't interesting - > what with name-calling and > slapping and threats - but its hardly substantial. > Still, it's the closest > she has to an outside relationship, romantic or not! Okay, I am *not* a Draco/Hermione shipper. There are many reasons for this, which I will not go into here because I think that's a separate post. Suffice it to say that I think they are two fundamentally different people and I do not see how a relationship between them could possibly exist. To me, their relationship is clear: antagonist versus protagonist. I'm not saying that a relationships between them is out of the realm of possibilities, just that I see it as being about as unlikely as a neo-Nazi and a Jewish girl falling in love. I think Draco would have to undergo some *major* changes before I would even see a Draco/Hermione ship as being possible. I would also argue that this is not the closest thing she has to an outside relationship. What about the aforementioned Ravenclaws? What about Krum? > > Okay, okay I think I have a point - for a girl who > seems so knowledgeble and > confident in her studies, Hermione seems to be > extremely shy and unassured. > With that said, I think GoF was without a doubt the > Age of Hermione, with the > realisation that a boy (Krum) might find her > attractive, Ron may have a thing > for her (which ever way you look at it) and, of > course, the infamous kiss on > the last page. Maybe she is realising that there are > people outside of Ron > and Harry (in shape of Ginny and even Krum) and that > she is an important part > in Ron and Harry's lives, regardless of their > constant snipes at each other > or fights. Hermione, I think, in the next books will > grow out of her shyness > and really step forth as a force at Hogwarts. JKR > can't keep painting this > picture of a feisty, saucy bookworm who is both > emotionally and socially > stunted - it just doesn't work. I definitely think that Hermione is undergoing some fundamental changes, with the result that Harry and Ron are starting to look at her with new eyes. In the beginning, I think Ron and Harry had a one dimensional view of Hermione: she was a really smart Muggle girl whose intelligence proved useful to them in certain situations. I don't mean to say that I think Harry and Ron were taking advantage of her because I don't think that. However, I think that Harry views Ron at a much more personal level than he does Hermione. There is a lot of information about Ron's family but all we really know about Hermione's is that her parents are Muggle dentists. Harry also knows a lot about Ron's likes, dislikes, hopes, dreams, etc. than he does about Hermione's. I think that Ron and Harry are now coming to realize that Hermione is an individual with her own complex feelings and that she does not always hold the same opinions as them. I think that she is really surprising them in a lot of ways. It's almost like she has become this new, unknown person to them. They can't believe how pretty she is, that she would have a date with an international Quidditch star, that she cares so passionately for house elves. I'm really enjoying watching Hermione develop into something other than a reference book to Harry and Ron. > > I hope that made sense. What does everyone think? I enjoyed your post. :) Thanks for helping me to reflect on one of my favorite parts of the series--the development of Hermione. ~Nicole, who would like to thank her fellow Legolas-admirer, Lilac, for dedicating a FILK to her. I'm flattered! :) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Sep 9 03:50:04 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (bboy_mn) Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 03:50:04 -0000 Subject: Ron: GoF: Betrayed or Jealous? Revisited. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43801 Betrayal vs Jealousy Revisited- I've just been reading GoF again, and had some new thoughts on this issue and thought I would comment on it again. In message #42739 I suggested that Ron's emotions surrounding Harry's name coming out of the Goblet of Fire were not about Harry getting the glory one more time, they were instead about betrayal of friendship. In message #42749, sweet Jenny from Ravenclaw, responded and pointed out many examples of the ways that Ron is so obviously jealous of Harry and in a sense, jealous of other people, specifically mentioning Draco. All good valid points, and definitely true. But the question isn't whether Ron is jealous in general, because we all know that he is. He is jealous of lots of people in lots of ways. The question is, is the emotional pain he obviously feels when Harry name comes out of the Goblet of Fire rooted in betrayal or jealousy? I say betrayal and further down in the post I will make my case. Now, my purpose isn't to say I'm right and you are wrong; the purpose is to find out if there are other people who also read it from my point of view. I know my position will always be the minority position, and that the accepted line, believed by most people including Hermione, is that Ron is jealous. In fact, Hermione states just that in point blank undeniable language. We as readers however, have a greater insight than Hermione, so her opinion doesn't necessarily dictate the true reality. Although, it is the most obvious conclusion. The next day after Harry's name comes out, Harry and Hermione are walking around the lake and Hermione says point blank- (slightly truncated version) Harry asks, "Does he (Ron) still think I entered my name?" Hermione responds (shortened) ".... not really." Harry inquires, "What's that suppose to mean 'not really'?" "Oh Harry, isn't it obvious?" Hermione said despairingly. "He's jealous!" and Hermione goes on to explain how Harry gets all the attention and Ron gets shunted to the side. This is a very obvious conclusion but I think the most telling clues regarding Ron's true emotions are found in Ron and Harry's first conversation after Harry's name comes out. Side note: I'm going to use kind of an odd format to interlace my comments with the text from the book. Hopefully, it will still be readable. The Conversation between Harry and Ron- (US, hb, Cof pg 286) - - - - - - - - - - Setup: Harry has just come up to their dorm room with the Gryffindor banner draped over his shoulders. Ron is laying on his bed with an odd sort of grin on his face while a very self-conscious Harry struggles to get the banner off. "So," he (Ron) said, when Harry had finally removed the banner and thrown it into a corner. "Congratulations." "What d'you mean, congratulations?" said Harry, staring at Ron. There was definitely something wrong with the way Ron was smiling: It was more like a grimace. "Well....no one else got across the Age Line," said Ron. "Not even Fred and George. What did you use -- the Invisibility Cloak?" "The Invisibility Cloak wouldn't have got me over that line," said Harry slowly. "Oh right," said Ron. "I thought you might've told me if it was the cloak... because it would've covered both of us, wouldn't it? But you found another way, did you?" [Here is the first sign of Ron letting his [inner feelings show. "...you might've told ME..." [(my emphasis) 'Me' is the key. It's not about [what Harry got, but about the fact that Ron [was left out. Ron can see that Harry might not [have told others, but Ron is his best friend, how [could Harry possible justify not telling Ron? ["...it would've covered both of us, wouldn't it?" [Again, Ron expresses feelings of being left out. [The implication is 'We're friends; we could have [done this together, but you left me out.' [Ron is Harry's one truest dearest and closest [friend and it hurts that Harry excluded him from [this adventure. The adventure being, getting their [names into the goblet of fire. Once that's done, it [really doesn't matter who's name comes out. "Listen," said Harry, "I didn't put my name in that goblet. Someone else must've done it." Ron raised his eye brows. "What would they do that for?" "I dunno," said Harry. He felt it would sound very melodramatic to say, "To kill me." Ron's eyebrows rose so high that hey were in danger of disappearing into his hair. "It's okay, you know, you can tell *me* the truth," he (Ron) said. "If you don't want everyone else to know, fine,...." [Emphasis on the word '*me*' is in the original text. [Again, the implication is that Ron's closest friend [has excluded him. Even implying that all is forgiven [if Harry will just let Ron in on it now. Ron is say [that he, Ron, is not like everyone else; that Harry [can tell other people anything he wants, but Ron is [different, as Harry's truest friend, he owes Ron the [truth. It's understandable that Harry would exclude [other people but unthinkable and unacceptable that he [could exclude is most intimate friend. To expand it [even further, from Ron's point of view, if you tell [me now then I guess we are friends after all, but if [you refuse to tell me now, then it confirms my worst [fears, that I am not your truest friend. That I am [just one more guy you share a dorm room with. Ron continues to speak- "...but I don't know why you're bothering to lie, you didn't get into trouble for it, did you? That friend of the Fat Lady's, that Violet, she's already told us all Dumbledore's letting you enter. A thousand Galleons prize money, eh? And you don't have to do end-of-year tests either..." [True, this could be interpreted as jealousy; the money, [the tests. But coming near the end of this particular [conversation, I still see it as Ron giving Harry one [last chance to redeem himself. Sort of, 'There's no [excuse for not telling me, so tell me the truth now, [and we might be able to patch this up'. The money and [the tests are not things that Ron is aching with desire [for, although, he probably is to some extent, they are [what Ron perceives as Harry motivations for not telling [him. "I didn't put my name in that goblet!" said Harry, starting to feel angry. "Yeah, okay," said Ron, in exactly the same skeptical tone as Cedric. "Only you said this morning you'd have done it last night, and no on would've seen you.... I'm not stupid you know." [Ron's POV: Yeah, okay, I gave you your chance to come [clean, but it was the last chance you get. I'm not [stupid you know, it's not that hard to figure out what [you did. I'm not stupid you know, I can see that I'm [not the friend that I thought I was. "You're doing a really good impression of it," Harry snapped. [And, of course, Ron is being stupid. We all know that [because as readers, we have a greater insight, but Ron, [from the minute Harry's name came out of the goblet and [Ron felt that emotional 'knife' stab into his heart, [has been thinking from his wounded heart not his [logical brain. I have no doubt that the first thought [in Ron's head when Harry's name came out, was not ['Oh no, Harry gets all the glory again'; I'm betting [that it was 'Oh no, how could Harry do this without me? [How could he betray our friendship like this?'. Ron ends the conversation- "Yeah?" said Ron, and there was no trace of a grin, forced or otherwise, on his face now. "You want to get to bed, Harry. I expect you'll need to be up early tomorrow for a photo-call or something." He (Ron) wrenched the hangings shut around his four-poster, leaving Harry standing there by the door, ... [True the 'photo-call' comment could be interpreted as [jealousy, but in the context of the conversation, I [see it as Ron's final resignation. His final acceptance [that the friendship he thought he had is not the [friendship thought it was. In a sense, it is Ron saying, ['fine, it's obvious I'm not your best friend, so you [just go your way and I'll go mine'. I can't imagine how much Ron's heart must have been aching at that moment. Of course, we get to see inside Harry's head so we know how much this hurt him. Buy my own intuitive sense is that Ron felt more emotional pain when he pulled his bed curtains closed than he had ever felt in his life. At that moment, he wasn't mourning the loss of glory or money, he was mourning the betrayal and loss of friendship; the loss of what he thought was the most important person in his life. More accurately, the loss of what Ron perceived that friendship and person to be. This is the one and only place where Ron get's to express his own feelings and speak for himself. From now until the end of the first task, all reference to Ron's feelings and motivations are from third parties. I think we will get more accurate clues from Ron's own words than from other people's opinions. Metaphorically speaking, this isn't about Harry reaching a certain destination; it's about Harry not inviting his best friend along for the ride. In general, there can be no denying that Ron had elements of jealousy and envy, but I am concerned with the very narrow confines of this one event. Finally, I'm not trying to dictate reality here, I'm simply taking a poll. A poll in which I know I will always be in the minority opinion. I'm just curious how big that minority is. So, what say you all; jealousy or betrayal? bboy_mn From kaityf at jorsm.com Sun Sep 8 21:23:39 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Sun, 08 Sep 2002 16:23:39 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's Friends/ Tempting Harry / DADA teachers/ Wand woods/ Percy In-Reply-To: <006e01c2576a$0920f560$009fcdd1@istu757> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020908154143.0421b460@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> No: HPFGUIDX 43802 Richelle said: >I really don't see Harry as close to any of his dormmates, considering how >much time they must spend together. Other than Ron, of course. >Particularly Neville. If he were close to Neville, surely he'd have thought >to ask him about his parents at some point? Seeing as Harry felt rather >ashamed that he'd never asked when he found out from Dumbledore, I get the >impression if they'd have been closer he would have. I'm not so sure about that. That seems to be from a female point of view, but boys friendships are always the same. For instance, at one point (sorry, I forget exactly where), Harry is upset and Ron asks him if he wants to play Quidditch. Hermione thinks this is terribly insensitive of Ron, but Harry agrees to it. It's just what Harry wants. I really don't think boys and girls friendships are the same. Of course, this doesn't prove that Harry WAS close to his dormmates, just that his not having asked Neville about his parents isn't proof that he's NOT. >Carol writes: > > > I didn't like it when Mrs. Weasley turned on Hermione. On one level it > > was rather humorous, but I didn't like what it said about Mrs. Weasley. > > On the other hand, I think Molly knows Harry better than she knows > > Hermione, Harry having spent more time with the Weasleys than Hermione > > has. Also, I'm sure Molly feels more protective toward Harry than toward > > Hermione since Harry lost his parents while Hermione still has hers. > >The way I saw it was that no one, not even someone she seemed to like, such >as Hermione, is going to stand between Molly and Harry. She will protect >him against whatever and whoever. Regardless. She didn't really care that >Hermione was one of Harry's best friends, if there was even the most remote >chance that what was said was true, she was going to side with Harry. I think we're saying the same thing here. I said that Molly was quite protective of Harry and I provided a reason. Was there something different you were trying to say? Or were you just agreeing? >Constance Vigilance writes: > > My understanding was that Quirrel was the DADA teacher, and > > presumably a good one, for some years until he decided to go on > > sabbatical for some practical experience - with the results we all > > know. Then after he came back as Quirrelmort, we don't know how many > > years prior to Harry's introduction that he taught at Hogwarts. Couple things here: First, I don't think Quirrell came back from his journeys as Quirrellmort. I don't think he became Quirrellmort until later. For one thing, when Harry meets Quirrell at the Leaky Cauldron, Quirrell is able to touch Harry with no problem -- they shake hands. There is also no description of his turban until Harry sees Quirrell again at the feast after the sorting. It reads, "Harry spotted Professor Quirrell, too, the nervous young man from the leaky cauldron. He was looking very peculiar in a large purple turban." Not "his" purple turban, or "the" purple turban, but "a" purple turban, which indicates that Harry had not seen this turban before. The word choice seems to indicate that the turban is a new addition. I think that Voldemort attached himself to Quirrell AFTER Harry met him at the Leaky Cauldron, possibly because Quirrell failed to retrieve the PP/SS from Gringott's. In addition, the description of Quirrell quite clearly states that he is a *young* man. How young is young? Dunno. Second, Hagrid simply says to Harry that Quirrell had a "brilliant mind" and was "fine" while he was "studyin' outta books." I too took this to mean that he had been teaching, but that isn't necessarily true. One reason I assumed that to be true is that I don't know why else Hagrid would know anything about Quirrell unless Quirrell was at Hogwarts. Of course, he could have learned that Dumbledore just hired a brilliant young man, etc., but then if Quirrell was new at the start of the year, he was already a stuttering nervous wreck. Would Dumbledore have hired a person who appears to be afraid of his own subject? Constance Vigilance continues: > > Presumably, he was there for at least one year previous, because > > Percy was familiar with him. Based on teaching at Hogwarts for a few > > years, then going on sabbatical for a few years, then teaching at > > Hogwarts again for at least two years, we can assume that Quirrel is > > likely older than he looks. Basically, I'm disputing the theory that > > Quirrel is young. Richelle counters: >Technically speaking, let's theorize for a moment that Quirrell was Snape's >age. 35. He'd have been out of school for 17 years. Suppose he wanders >around doing whatever wizards do for five years. Then gets on at Hogwarts. >He could still have been teaching there for 12 years. That's a good bit of >experience. And I think it was stated somewhere that he took a year off >(one, not more) to have some real world experience. Which makes me think he >didn't have much real world experience to begin with. Me: I agree with you. I think it's unlikely that Quirrell has much experience at all. And it is just one year that he took off. Hagrid says to Harry: ...then he took a year off ter get some first-hand experience." He added that Quirrell hasn't been the same since: "...scared of the students, scared of his own subject ..." From that I'd guess that Quirrell has been back from his studies for at least one year, or else how would Hagrid know Quirrell was afraid of students? But I don't see anything that makes it obvious he was back for more than that. He may have been, but we can't know that. All that still points to a pretty young Quirrell. And as a side to a previous discussion -- the lack of experience and reliance on *book learning alone* comes across as not such a good thing. Olivia said: > > A Slytherin may be known for ambition, but from what we've > > seen, it's blind ambition. They'll do anything and everything to get what > > they want whereas Percy wants to succeed, but he'll do it by following the > > rules. Richelle replied: >I think that's the key difference between Gryffindor Percy and the >Slytherins. Slytherins will "use any means to achieve their ends." Percy >is a stickler for rules. Of course, he's got himself in a bit of trouble >now, as his boss has turned up dead. We'll see if he stays that way or not. I think I agree. I got the impression that the Slytherins are a rather Machiavellian lot. Percy is ambitious, but not so ambitious that he would do anything to get ahead. He is more likely to be exceedingly sycophantic and hard-working. Then again, that's not terribly Gryffindor-ish either. Strikes me more as Hufflepuff-ish, especially the hard-working part. Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From michelle_ravel at yahoo.ca Mon Sep 9 05:58:01 2002 From: michelle_ravel at yahoo.ca (michelle_ravel) Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 05:58:01 -0000 Subject: Ron: GoF: Betrayed or Jealous? Revisited. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43803 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bboy_mn" wrote: > So, what say you all; jealousy or betrayal? Is there no way that Ron could have felt BOTH jealous AND betrayed? Don't you think it's most likely that he felt a terrible mix of both emotions, letting them fuel one another until it all blew up into an anger that he couldn't control? That seems the most plausible to me. Humans usually feel more than one emotion at one time. I totally agree with you that Ron felt betrayed--you have made a wonderful case. You are right--Ron obviously feels very left out, and very alone. But Hermione wasn't wrong when she said that Ron was jealous. Ron IS jealous of Harry and his fame. Ron has always wanted to be important-- we've known that since Book 1--and it's not a strech to assume that he was jealous in this situation. Just remember how much fuel it added to Ron's fire when Harry was called for publicity photos. The FAMOUS Harry Potter got to him. Ron is jealous of Harry, but he'd always been able to contain it before because Harry was his FRIEND. You see? But when he was "betrayed" (or at least FELT betayed, as you pointed out) it was too hard to contain his jealousy, and so it all began. I don't think that the jealousy/betrayal debate really is a debate. I don't think it's an either/or. Ron's too good a character to only feel one thing. He probably felt those two emotions, and tons more besides! Michelle Ravel From Kiyari6 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 9 06:11:09 2002 From: Kiyari6 at yahoo.com (Kiyari6) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 23:11:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ron: GoF: Betrayed or Jealous? Revisited Message-ID: <20020909061109.17054.qmail@web21309.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43804 bboy_mn said: >But the question isn't whether Ron is jealous in >general, because we all know that he is. He is jealous >of lots of people in lots of ways. The question is, is >the emotional pain he obviously feels when Harry name >comes out of the Goblet of Fire rooted in betrayal or >jealousy? I feel it is a mixture of both, I do believe the fight started more from betrayal. In Ron's heart he feels Harry has done one the most horrible things to him he could have done, he didn't include him. He thinks Harry left him out on purpose and is now lying to him. How could he not feel betrayed. Jealousy does not yet factor into the fight at the beginning, he's hurt. He gave Harry the chance to fix it by telling him the truth about how his name got into the goblet, but Harry only lies to him, making him feel more hurt and miserable. That is how the fight starts, but once he gets over the betrayal a little he does become jealous. Harry is once again the "Hero" and Ron is pushed aside. I don't believe Ron really had a problem being the sidekick until this happened. He showed no signs of jealousy or hatred towards Harry about the sidekick role before, but now he does. Harry doesn't even get into trouble for this, he gets rewarded. He is allowed to compete, he doesn't have to take exams, and he may win 1,000 galleons in prize money. Of course Ron is jealous, it only makes sense. But the fight did start from betrayal, even if that wasn't the reason it lasted so long. Kiyari __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com From crussell at arkansas.net Mon Sep 9 14:35:49 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 14:35:49 -0000 Subject: Ron: GoF: Betrayed or Jealous? Revisited. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43805 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bboy_mn" wrote: > We as readers however, have a greater insight > than Hermione, so her opinion doesn't necessarily dictate the true > reality. Although, it is the most obvious conclusion. > > > > So, what say you all; jealousy or betrayal? > > bboy_mn First, I wish to comment about the above statement regarding the reader's supposed greater insight. IMO, that insight can only be applied to Harry. It is through Harry's eyes-his point of view- that we see everything. At no point-that I can recall-do we enter into Ron's or anybody else's thoughts-except Harry's. IMO, perhaps, at least, in this instance, Hermione's insight into Ron's feelings could be correct. After all, we have to remember that Ron and Hermione have spent some time together-unobserved by not only Harry-but we the readers also. What was discussed during these unobserved times-at least, on some level-we have no idea. So even though jealosy certainly is the most obvious conclusion-this does not mean that Hermione's drawing of this conclusion is not based on something other than a casual observation. Now to the issue itself of jealosy vs. betrayal. I go for the mixed bag myself. Perhaps, leaning more towards jealosy. My reason for this is based on the fact that from almost book 1 of the series, Ron has expressed a deep resentment concerning his family's poverty. At certain times, when he has expressed this resentment, his friends have not known how to respond. JKR has stated that book 4 is a pivotal book in the series. I think this confrontation between Harry and Ron demonstrates it. Not for one minute do I entertain the idea that Ron could betray Harry for money or fame. When I say this scene is pivotal- I mean to say it is pivotal in the fact that it demonstrates a growing maturity in the nature's of Harry and Ron. Jealosy of course is not a mature emotion. However, having the courage to confront your best friend with your true feelings is. IMO,simply put- a sense of betrayal is certainly present -but the root goes deeper than that- I believe Ron's resentment/jealosy concerning his family's poverty is the main issue. bugaloo37-who loves Harry and Ron and cannot wait for them to grow up (and I do believe they are on their way) From naama2486 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 9 14:45:23 2002 From: naama2486 at yahoo.com (naama2486) Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 14:45:23 -0000 Subject: Newer UK Edition of CoS Has Three Changes From Original Edition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43806 Phyllis wrote about three changes in old and new UK CoS editions. I've found a fourth, that though it isn't *that* critical, still annoyed me (I don't have the books with me, so you'll just have to look it up yourselves) When Harry and Ron go to Lockhart's office, he tells them about the witch that banished the banshee. In the old version Lockhart says she had a "hare lip". On the newer edition, however, she has a "hairy chin". Why change it?! HP publishers must be really bored if they make such stupid and irrelivent changes. Was JKR aware of this? Naama the New, who actually liked the "descendant" typo. Even Dumbledore is human ;-) P.S. In case you've wondered, Naama is a hebrew name. And it's a *she* :-) From kristilynn5 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 9 14:47:25 2002 From: kristilynn5 at yahoo.com (Kristi Smith) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 07:47:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron: GoF: Betrayed or Jealous? Revisited. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020909144725.37459.qmail@web40305.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43807 bboy_mn writes: No: HPFGUIDX 43808 It's been largely discussed and I'm honestly not sure what Canon would say because I have only ONE printing of each book and all of them are the Americanized versions. Did Hagrid return the motorcycle to Sirius or not? That isn't the main reason I'm posting though although it does effect it indirectly. You see, Hagrid made a comment in SS, Chapter 5, "Diagon Alley." Pg 63-64 of SS: "How did you get here?" Harry asked, looking around for another boat. "Flew." said Hagrid "FLEW?" "Yeah--but we'll go back in this. Not s'pposed ter use magic now I've got yeh." They settled down in the boat, Harry still staring at Hagrid, trying to imagine him flying. End. How did Hagrid fly over to the island to get Harry? Hagrid isn't a fully trained wizard. He couldn't use a spell to fly? He obviously couldn't apparate. So how did he get there? If he KEPT the bike, then he could have flown that, but where did it go? Was it enchanted not only to fly, but to fly by itself? Did he tell it to return home and it did on it's own? Did another wizard fly him out there? It's never said exactly how Hagrid flew. I can't beleive that the bike could fly by itself. If it could, why didn't Hagrid fly it back to Hogwarts after dropping off Baby Harry and then order the bike to go back to Sirius, unless Sirius had already been arrested? Do we know when Sirius fought Pettigrew? Was it the next day or a few days later? Pettigrew should have been in hiding I would think. How long after the fight with Wormtail was he arrested? Was it immediate? The question becomes I guess, How did Hagrid get to the Island where Uncle Vernon had Harry stashed to avoid those letters? We know he flew, but HOW did he fly? Just curious. Any ideas? -jeff From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 9 16:09:07 2002 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 09:09:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hagrid Flew? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020909160908.8299.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43809 --- doffy99 wrote: > The question becomes I guess, How did Hagrid get to the Island where > Uncle Vernon had Harry stashed to avoid those letters? We know he > flew, but HOW did he fly? I have not one shred of canon to back this up, other than he had it with him at the time, but I always pictured Hagrid flying in like Mary Poppins on his pink umbrella. :) Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com From crussell at arkansas.net Mon Sep 9 16:09:10 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 16:09:10 -0000 Subject: Snape vs. Dumbledore? In-Reply-To: <20020908140914.29721.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43810 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Barb P wrote: > > Even Hagrid, since he is always loyal to the headmaster, told the Trio that they were crazy for suspecting Snape was up to something. I think, however, that JKR making him unrelentingly unlikable is just her way of continuing to make people (most the Trio) doubt Snape, since she loves her red herrings. As a result, Snape is the last person I would expect to turn out villainous. > > --Barb I understand that JKR is famous for her red herrings-however, IMO, I suspect that there must be more to this issue than meets the eye. I will freely admit that when I first read the HP series, I absolutely loathed Snape. And even after my second read through, my opinion did not significantly alter. However after joining HPFGU and reading a great many varying interpretations of Snape's character, I will admit that Snape is probably the most intriguing character in the series. His ambiguious nature-exemplified by his obvious cruelty to Harry in public compared to the fact he always seems to be around when Harry needs him, i.e, the first quidditch match- make him quite the mystery. His character simply begs to be analyzed. IMO, Snape's dual character is JKR's way of showing the reader-that nothing is ever completely black and white. Snape's inner battles are reflective of the dual nature of all human beings. bugaloo37-who finds Snape interesting-although completely unlikeable (Snape fans-please forgive me!) From SaalsG at cni-usa.com Mon Sep 9 16:23:10 2002 From: SaalsG at cni-usa.com (Grace Saalsaa) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 11:23:10 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hagrid Flew? References: Message-ID: <005701c2581d$30e009c0$904053d1@DJF30D11> No: HPFGUIDX 43811 From: jeff/doffy99 (snip.....sorry) How did Hagrid fly over to the island to get Harry? Hagrid isn't a fully trained wizard. He couldn't use a spell to fly? He obviously couldn't apparate. So how did he get there? If he KEPT the bike, then he could have flown that, but where did it go? Was it enchanted not only to fly, but to fly by itself? Did he tell it to return home and it did on it's own? Did another wizard fly him out there? It's never said exactly how Hagrid flew. I can't beleive that the bike could fly by itself. If it could, why didn't Hagrid fly it back to Hogwarts after dropping off Baby Harry and then order the bike to go back to Sirius, unless Sirius had already been arrested? Do we know when Sirius fought Pettigrew? Was it the next day or a few days later? Pettigrew should have been in hiding I would think. How long after the fight with Wormtail was he arrested? Was it immediate? The question becomes I guess, How did Hagrid get to the Island where Uncle Vernon had Harry stashed to avoid those letters? We know he flew, but HOW did he fly? Just curious. Any ideas? now me: Being a not fully trained wizard doesn't have to mean that Hagrid can't fly - just as not being a certified mechanic doesn't mean you can't fix a car. And, I'm guessing that one doesn't have to be in school to learn magic. Look at Snape, who knew more about the Dark Arts when he arrived than many of the 7th year students. No teacher taught The Marauders how to create the map, and yet they did it. No one taught them how to become animgi either and they managed that. Harry learns the "Point Me" spell from a book instead of from a teacher. We already know that Hagrid wanders into the library on occassion to do some studying. I wouldn't be surprised if he also gets private lessons from Dumbledore when there's a task he wants Hagrid to do which requires the use of some magic. Grace From doffy99 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 9 16:22:48 2002 From: doffy99 at yahoo.com (doffy99) Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 16:22:48 -0000 Subject: Hagrid Flew? In-Reply-To: <20020909160908.8299.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43812 I wrote: > > The question becomes I guess, How did Hagrid get to the Island where > > Uncle Vernon had Harry stashed to avoid those letters? We know he > > flew, but HOW did he fly? Andrea wrote: > I have not one shred of canon to back this up, other than he had it with > him at the time, but I always pictured Hagrid flying in like Mary Poppins > on his pink umbrella. :) Me: This does create an interesting mental image LOL and I'm sure it's exactly what Harry was thinking when Hagrid told him he flew. Is Hagrid enough of a wizard to cast such a spell though?? This seems like awful powerful magic. At least as big a deal as Tranfiguration and one, I would think, a wizard would use sparingly and possibly only with permission from MOM. Good chance of being seen and all. Granted, Harry and family were in a remote area and it was dark and stormy. We have NO canon at all to say that A wizard could even cast such a spell, that such a spell even exists, unless Hagrid knows the spell to make a Brookstick fly. This doesn't seem like a spell you would learn in your forth or fifth year at Hogwarts. Did Dumbledore or someone else Train Hagrid to do this? I admit, I've predicted in an earlier post that Hagrid would become a full fledged wizard by the end of series, but this seems a little advanced. Any thoughts on the idea that Dumbledore has been slowly, over many, many years, training Hagrid in wizardy? Dumbledore trusts Hagrid implicitly and Dumbledore does have a certain disregard for rules, much like our hero, is it possible that Hagrid is closer to being a wizard than JKR has let on? -Jeff From adatole at yahoo.com Mon Sep 9 16:28:22 2002 From: adatole at yahoo.com (Leon Adato) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 12:28:22 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hagrid Flew? In-Reply-To: <005701c2581d$30e009c0$904053d1@DJF30D11> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43813 Grace said: Being a not fully trained wizard doesn't have to mean that Hagrid can't fly - just as not being a certified mechanic doesn't mean you can't fix a car. Now me: I would have to agree with both Grace and the other person (sorry, forgot name and deleted the email) who envisioned "Hagrid Poppins" (or would that be "Mary Hagrid"?) floating over on his pink umbrella. Hagrid states to Harry that one of the reasons he was keen to come out was because he would be *allowed* to perform magic. So I think that a levitation spell of some kind would work. If you aren't into umbrellas, you could always imagine he cast "wingardium leviosa" on his cloths. Since he was in them, they would carry him nicely. Talk about lifting yourself by your own bootstraps. Leon Adato ------------------- "Life is a long lesson in humility." -James M. Barrie, writer (1860-1937) email: adatole at yahoo.com phone: (440) 382-3268 fax: (305) 832-2818 From bdmorrp at budget.state.ny.us Mon Sep 9 18:08:33 2002 From: bdmorrp at budget.state.ny.us (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 18:08:33 -0000 Subject: Hagrid Flew? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43814 Jeff (doffy99)wrote: > How did Hagrid fly over to the island to get Harry? Hagrid isn't a > fully trained wizard. He couldn't use a spell to fly? He obviously > couldn't apparate. So how did he get there? If he KEPT the bike, > then he could have flown that, but where did it go? Now me: I don't think Hagrid's flying involved the motorbike, since the change from "I need to return the bike to Sirius" to "I need to put the bike away" was made fairly recently, while Hagrid telling Harry he flew to the Hut on the Rock has been there from the start. How Hagrid flew is one of the many questions we don't have definite answers to. I love the Hagrid Poppins idea, but doesn't it say somewhere in Quidditch through the Ages that a witch/wizard can't fly on her/his own (in an explanation of why wizards need broomsticks or flying carpets to fly)? Which is why I dislike the scenes in the Movie That Must Not Be Named of Quirrellmort flying without the aid of a magical object. Although perhaps the umbrella was temporarily enchanted by Dumbledore to help Hagrid get to Harry? Jeff (doffy99)again: > Do we know when Sirius fought Pettigrew? Was it the next day or a > few days later? Pettigrew should have been in hiding I would think. > How long after the fight with Wormtail was he arrested? Was it > immediate? Me again: I don't have PoA with me, but IIRC, it says that Pettigrew "caught up with Sirius the next day." It also says that Sirius was arrested on the spot (IIRC, by 20 MoM employees). ~Phyllis From crussell at arkansas.net Mon Sep 9 18:23:48 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 18:23:48 -0000 Subject: Friendships in WW/ Wands In-Reply-To: <005a01c257a4$c64726c0$399ccdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43815 -- - In HPforGrownups at y..., "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > Second, Ron and Cedric had the same wand core. I believe the only wands > mentioned to have the same core, unicorn hair. And Cedric was killed > basically because he was a nice guy. That oversimplifies it, I know, but > that's the underlying factor. And Ron is, well, a nice guy. > > > Richelle > > I have to admit the similar wand cores bothers me a little. In previous posts, I have made my opinion quite clear regarding the predestination of certain characters and this includes Ron. I want to make it clear that I still do not adhere to the notion of fate as being a guiding force in the HP series. However, not to backtrack any here, Ron has demonstrated since the very first book a willingness to step forward in dangerous situations. Of course these decisions have all been freely made choices- not according to some pre-set plan. IMO, as a matter fact, Ron's decisions tend to be spur of the moment reactions to the situation at hand. Ron's character is most noble and I am afraid this nobility will lead him into a final no-win situation. It will still be a matter of choice-not fate. IMO, we have been given enough information regarding Ron's character to make certain assumptions as to his future-but again, let it be emphasized-these can only be assumptions. Therefore, on the basis of these assumptions-the similarity in wand cores does give me pause. bugaloo37 From bdmorrp at budget.state.ny.us Mon Sep 9 18:25:44 2002 From: bdmorrp at budget.state.ny.us (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 18:25:44 -0000 Subject: Clarification on my US-UK Edition Comparison (WAS: Changes in Newer UK CoS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43816 Naama the New (naama2486)wrote: > Phyllis wrote about three changes in old and new UK CoS editions. > I've found a fourth, that though it isn't *that* critical, still > annoyed me When Harry and Ron go to Lockhart's office, he > tells them about the witch that banished the banshee. In the old > version Lockhart says she had a "hare lip". On the newer edition, > however, she has a "hairy chin". Now me: I'd like to take this opportunity to clarify that I have not done (and am not doing) a word-for-word comparison between my US paperback editions and my new UK paperback editions of the books. As I'm reading the UK versions, if I come across a section that looks as if it's been changed, I then consult my US edition to see if it's really a change, and I then look at the page on the Lexicon to see if it's already been identified as a change. I'm doing it this way because I'm only really interested in identifying changes which I believe change the substance of the text, and I have found a few - Hagrid putting the motorbike away instead of returning it to Sirius in PS, and the deletion of a paragraph explaining why Dobby was with Mr. Malfoy at the end of CoS. Why they would change "hare lip" to "hairy chin" is beyond me - perhaps they thought it might be easier for younger readers to understand (although how many young readers know what color "puce" is?)? ~Phyllis From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Mon Sep 9 18:38:19 2002 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus) Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 18:38:19 -0000 Subject: Several suggestions (Re: Hagrid Flew?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43817 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "doffy99" wrote: > How did Hagrid fly over to the island to get Harry? Hagrid isn't a > fully trained wizard. He couldn't use a spell to fly? He obviously > couldn't apparate. So how did he get there? If he KEPT the bike, then > he could have flown that, but where did it go? Was it enchanted not > only to fly, but to fly by itself? Did he tell it to return home and > it did on it's own? Did another wizard fly him out there? It's never > said exactly how Hagrid flew. > -jeff Suggestions: (1) Another wizard flew him there. (2) He rode his umbrella like a broomstick. (3) He flew ala Mary Poppins. (4) He has an umbrella stashed in his coat. (5) There is a spell that the writer of QTTA is unaware of that allows unaided flying. He was taught this either by himself in the libary, or someone taught it to him. He might of learned it before he was expelled. (6) There is a magical device sort of like a portkey that gives the user superman flying powers. This could be for limited duration. Those are all the ones I can think of at the moment. I am sure JKR could come up with several others without breaking into a sweat. :) Marcus From siskiou at earthlink.net Mon Sep 9 19:10:13 2002 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 12:10:13 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Friendships in WW/ Wands In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3925806055.20020909121013@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 43818 Hi, Monday, September 09, 2002, 11:23:48 AM, bugaloo37 wrote: > Therefore, on the basis of > these assumptions-the similarity in wand cores does give me pause. I'm away from the books and can't look this up right now, but didn't Ron's first wand (that he inherited from one of his brothers) also contain a unicorn hair and was willow? And as far as I know, this brother (can't remember who it was) is still alive and well. I just can't believe that everyone in the wizard world who ends up with a willow/unicorn hair wand faces an almost certain (if noble) death. Wouldn't the WW have caught on by now, if this were the case? AFAIK, there aren't *that* many different combinations of wood and core out there. Or maybe I'm just trying to convince myself that Ron (my favorite character) will not be one of the deaths :} -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From gandharvika at hotmail.com Mon Sep 9 19:26:08 2002 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 19:26:08 +0000 Subject: Re[HP4Grownups] Cho Was Ever So (FILK) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43819 Cho Was Ever So (A Filk by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Just A Gigolo_) This Filk is dedicated to Lilac who came up with the theory (see post#43157), and Nicole who came up with the wonderful acronym, CONNIVING CHICK'S REVENGE (Crazy Overlord Notices Nice, Innocent Victim In Noxious Grief, Chides Her Into Choosing Killing, Serving Ruthless Evil Voldemort's Especial Need to Get Even) whew..what a mouthful! Cho Chang: My friends all call me Cho Nobody really knows The special role I'm playing My house is Ravenclaw I'm an excellent seeker Ohh, what they're saying But there may come a day When Harry I'll betray Because of the death of Cedric At the end of the show They say, "Cho was ever so Just because she's lovesick". I'm so sad 'bout Cedric Nobody cares but me, nobody cares but me. I'm so mad at Harry Mad at Harry, mad at Harry Won't some Dark Lord take advantage of me 'Coz I'm feeling bad? -Gail B. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From mysmacek at yahoo.com Mon Sep 9 19:34:28 2002 From: mysmacek at yahoo.com (mysmacek) Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 19:34:28 -0000 Subject: Quality of Hogwarts' less-regarded teachers In-Reply-To: <20020905224305.54308.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43820 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., gabrielle jones wrote: > My original post was regarding the importance of DADA, being it's lack of fully *reliable* teachers, and that some teacher's who would be excellent at the job (Dumbledore, Snape) never became DADA teachers. I wondered whether or not the general attitude (in my opinion) reflected that of the attitude of the entire wizarding world; Lack of DADA emphasis at Hogwarts: Lack of emphasis on protection against DA in the WW. Well, I certainly can understand why Dumbledore does not want Snape as a teacher of DADA - with Snape's history, he might be a bit afraid of letting Snape deal with DA too much --- just to avoid possible temptation. For Dumbledore, maybe he simply does not like the subject, so why he should teach it? Of course, there might be also a malevolent/incompetent influence of School board members - after all, Lucius was kicked off the board after CoS and since then the teachers' quality improved :) Mysmacek From crussell at arkansas.net Mon Sep 9 19:59:43 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 19:59:43 -0000 Subject: Friendships in WW/ Wands In-Reply-To: <3925806055.20020909121013@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43821 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Susanne wrote: > > AFAIK, there aren't *that* many different combinations of > wood and core out there. > > Or maybe I'm just trying to convince myself that Ron (my > favorite character) will not be one of the deaths :} > > > -- > Best regards, > Susanne mailto:siskiou at e... I just thought I would write back and try to clarify what I said. I am sure that there are many wizards out in the WW who have wands with the unicorn core made with willow wood. I am mainly basing my fear of Ron's heroic demise on these traits in his character which seem to point to a certain willingness to sacrifice himself for the greater good. IMO, the fact that JKR has emphasized this particular character trait is certainly more of an example of foreshadowing than any reference to similar wand makeups. As always, let me re-emphasize- IMO, JKR does not promote the idea of fate is her novels. The importance of choice is always at the forefront of the HP series; however, by showing us certain character's personality traits, she is providing us with clues as to what that character's actions may be when faced with certain situations. Just as yourself, I too am hoping that Ron is never placed in a no-win situation-but I do believe we can look at how his character has been described so far and make assumptions as to how he would act if faced with said situation. bugaloo37-who most definitely does not want Ron to die From speedygonzo242 at hotmail.com Mon Sep 9 20:38:45 2002 From: speedygonzo242 at hotmail.com (frankielee242) Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 20:38:45 -0000 Subject: Friendships in WW/ Wands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43822 bugaloo37 wrote: > I have to admit the similar wand cores bothers me a little. (SNIP) > IMO, as a matter fact, Ron's decisions tend to be spur > of the moment reactions to the situation at hand. Ron's character is > most noble and I am afraid this nobility will lead him into a final > no-win situation. Weeeeelllllll, maybe yes and maybe no. Ron is a chess genius, according to the books. Strategy, strategy, strategy, imagination and thinking three moves out in every single direction is what it takes to consistently win chess matches. Ron might make spur-of-the-moment decisions, but they're well thought out spur-of-the-moment decisions (example: the chess game sacrifice in PS/SS). Unfortunately, I'm looking at the chess game in PS/SS as the foreshadowing event, rather than just the wand cores. What if Ron winds up responsible for moving people and resources around in the WW to combat LV? Instead of sacrificing himself or game pieces, which we know he's capable of doing, he'll wind up having to sacrifice people he knows and cares about. Frankie From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Mon Sep 9 20:38:43 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 20:38:43 -0000 Subject: FILK: Viktor's Date Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43823 Viktor's Date to the tune of "Jesse's Girl" by Rick Springfield. SCENE: Ron broods at the Yule Ball RON: Viktor is a star. In Quidditch he's been a hero of mine. But now we're at the Ball, and it's so plain to see, Viktor's got himself a date, and I wish she was with me. Oooh, she's straightened out her teeth, And she's pinned up all her hair, I hardly know her. How did she turn into a beauty overnight? You know, I wish I was with Viktor's date, I wish I was with Viktor's date. How will I get her to notice me now? I told her she was being dumb, That Harry was in competition with Krum. I called him "Vicky" and she got all uptight, Now they're dancing there together, Looks like they'll keep it up all night. Oooh, she's straightened out her teeth, And she's pinned up all her hair, I hardly know her. How did she turn into a beauty overnight? You know I wish I was with Viktor's date, I wish I was with Viktor's date, How will I get her to notice me now? We've been friends, we've been buddies all these years, I thought that's how it would always be. Now I feel like my brain is stripping gears. I've missed what's been right in front of me. Tell me, How will I get her to notice me now? You know I wish I was with Viktor's date, I wish I was with Viktor's date, I want Viktor's date. How will I get her to notice me now, huh? Viktor's date, I wish I was with Viktor's date, I want, I want, Viktor's date. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From speedygonzo242 at hotmail.com Mon Sep 9 20:59:13 2002 From: speedygonzo242 at hotmail.com (frankielee242) Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 20:59:13 -0000 Subject: Hagrid Flew? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43824 Jeff (doffy99)wrote: > > > How did Hagrid fly over to the island to get Harry? Hagrid isn't a > > fully trained wizard. He couldn't use a spell to fly? He obviously > > couldn't apparate. So how did he get there? If he KEPT the bike, > > then he could have flown that, but where did it go? > What if Hagrid took a portkey? The sensation of using a portkey as described from Harry's PoV in the beginning of GoF seemed a bit like flying and rather unpleasant. Especially if you're someone who gets motion-sickness like Hagrid did in the Gringott's carts... Also in GoF, Amos Diggory announced he'd be glad when Cedric passed his Apparation tests and they didn't have to use them anymore. Hagrid might have brushed off the use of a portkey as "flying" since it became obvious Harry had no idea he was a wizard and knew nothing about the WW. Also, Hagrid might not have known how to explain how a portkey worked. Taking the boat, rather than the portkey buried in one of his many pockets, back to the mainland was a lot easier for both Hagrid and Harry to deal with. Frankie, the devil's advocate on weekends and holidays and all throughout May... From eloiseherisson at aol.com Mon Sep 9 21:02:08 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 17:02:08 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Newer UK Edition of CoS Has Three Changes From Origin... Message-ID: <5a.11439156.2aae6650@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43825 Naama (the new): <>> When Harry and Ron go to Lockhart's office, he tells them about the > witch that banished the banshee. In the old version Lockhart says she > had a "hare lip". On the newer edition, however, she has a "hairy > chin". > > Why change it?! Phyllis: Why they would change "hare lip" to "hairy chin" is beyond me - perhaps they thought it might be easier for younger readers to understand (although how many young readers know what color "puce" is?)? I think perhaps it was changed out of sensitivity. These *aren't* synonyms: hare lip is a synonym for cleft lip, a common birth defect and, according to my dictionary, is often used derisively. To be honest, I wasn't very comfortable with the original. I know that technically it was Lockhart's prejudice that was showing, but it may not have been very agreeable to readers who born with this defect, particularly children. It highlights negatively a condition which today is frequently very successfully treated by surgery. Children are, I think, less likely to suffer from hairy chins! I think JKR's original was a misjudgement and I'm glad it's been changed. Eloise. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From alina at distantplace.net Mon Sep 9 21:13:47 2002 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 17:13:47 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hagrid Flew? References: Message-ID: <00a701c25845$ca606d60$4a112b18@shprd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43826 > Jeff (doffy99)wrote: > > > > > How did Hagrid fly over to the island to get Harry? Hagrid isn't a > > > fully trained wizard. He couldn't use a spell to fly? He obviously > > > couldn't apparate. So how did he get there? If he KEPT the bike, > > > then he could have flown that, but where did it go? > > What if Hagrid's umbrella doubles as a broom? What if he had a broom with him that got magically diminished in size and tucked into one of his pockets? I wouldn't be surprised if many of his pockets have a diminishing charm on them. Alina of Distant Place http://www.distantplace.net/ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release Date: 02/08/2002 From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Mon Sep 9 21:21:56 2002 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus) Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 21:21:56 -0000 Subject: I doubt it was a portkey (Re: Hagrid Flew?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43827 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "frankielee242" wrote: > What if Hagrid took a portkey? > Frankie, It has to be pre-enchanted to take him where he wants to go. How would he, or the enchanter know that the Dursleys would be on that little island? Portkeys are also fairly advanced magic, certainly beyond the third year level that he had reached. Marcus From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com Mon Sep 9 22:18:29 2002 From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 15:18:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: (filk) "Starry, Starry Night" Message-ID: <20020909221829.83738.qmail@web40312.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43828 "Starry, Starry Night" (or "Sinistra's Song") to the tune of "Vincent" ("Starry, Starry Night") by Don McClean Dedicated to Gail NOTE: I've taken some of the info/discussions on the list about Sinistra and put into this filk, since we don't know very much about him/her from canon. The idea that the Astronomy tower is the make-out hot-spot is taken from various fan-fics I've read. I promise when we find out more about Sinistra, I'll re-write this. My apologies to Don McClean, Vincent Van Gogh, and everyone who loves the original song, because my version is a little weird. PROF. SINISTRA Starry, starry night Students in the tallest tower Meeting at ungodly hours To study all the constellations high The stars we classify Looking through our telescopes Finding new stars, one can hope We're diligent in studying the sky Students ask me why I like to teach astronomy I don?t know the answer, obviously There?s not much written about me In future books we may find how I?m important plot-wise now. Starry, Starry night On Christmas I danced with Moody I must say that he's no cutie But you assume that a female am I Perhaps hermaphrodite *What* am I? One can guess Beneath my robes is there a dress Or pants to let you know just what I am? Students understand Some of what I teach tonight But their minds wander to their sights To pick a spot to have a snog They were listening, they're not listening now Class is dismissed now They think they?re creative But I know the truth That when the stars are shining bright On the starry, starry nights The lovers crowd in here at half past two But I don?t have to tell Dumbledore The students use this tower for romantic interludes Starry, starry night Walking through the Hogwarts halls Portraits snoozing on the walls The sleeping students now I follow suit The point is hardly moot Though I can be dextrous and deft My name's not *right*, it means to the *left* But others think that *sinister* ?s the root Don't give me the boot Almost over is my song I know that it was very long Since there?s not so much to tell Perhaps book five I?ll tell my tale And then you?ll know me well ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* "Tut, tut --- hardly any of you remembered that my favorite color is *lilac*. I say so in Year with the Yeti." --Gilderoy Lockhart, COS --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bdmorrp at budget.state.ny.us Mon Sep 9 22:55:01 2002 From: bdmorrp at budget.state.ny.us (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 22:55:01 -0000 Subject: Hairy Chin or Hare Lip? (WAS: Changes in UK Edition of CoS) In-Reply-To: <5a.11439156.2aae6650@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43829 Naama (the new)wrote: > When Harry and Ron go to Lockhart's office, he tells them about the > witch that banished the banshee. In the old version Lockhart says > she had a "hare lip". On the newer edition, however, she has > a "hairy chin". Why change it?! Now me: I'm home with my books now, and neither my US CoS paperback edition nor my recently purchased UK adult version CoS paperback edition say "hairy chin." My US version says "harelip" (Ch. 16, p. 297) and my UK version says "hare lip" (Ch. 16, p. 220). Which edition do you have that says "hairy chin?" ~Phyllis From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Mon Sep 9 22:58:20 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb P) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 15:58:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Several suggestions (Re: Hagrid Flew?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020909225820.41783.qmail@web13007.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43830 prefectmarcus wrote: --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "doffy99" wrote: > How did Hagrid fly over to the island to get Harry? Hagrid isn't a fully trained wizard. He couldn't use a spell to fly? He obviously couldn't apparate. So how did he get there? If he KEPT the bike, then he could have flown that, but where did it go? Was it enchanted not only to fly, but to fly by itself? Did he tell it to return home and it did on it's own? Did another wizard fly him out there? It's never said exactly how Hagrid flew. > -jeff Suggestions: (1) Another wizard flew him there. (2) He rode his umbrella like a broomstick. (3) He flew ala Mary Poppins. (4) He has an umbrella stashed in his coat. (5) There is a spell that the writer of QTTA is unaware of that allows unaided flying. He was taught this either by himself in the libary, or someone taught it to him. He might of learned it before he was expelled. (6) There is a magical device sort of like a portkey that gives the user superman flying powers. This could be for limited duration. Those are all the ones I can think of at the moment. I am sure JKR could come up with several others without breaking into a sweat. :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Are we all forgetting that Ron and the twins rescued Harry in a flying car that their father enchanted? If Hagrid used any device to fly, such as the umbrella (most likely, IMO) who says he had to be the one who enchanted it? The Weasley boys didn't enchant their car. There's no reason why Dumbledore couldn't have put a nice traveling spell on Hagrid's umbrella for him. When Hagrid used it, he wouldn't have been doing magic, technically speaking, just as the Weasley boys didn't do magic, their father did. OTOH, Hagrid DID do magic when he gave Dudley the pig's tail....And he didn't get a letter, as far as we know, did he? --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Malady579 at hotmail.com Mon Sep 9 23:27:02 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (malady579) Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 23:27:02 -0000 Subject: Ron: GoF: Betrayed or Jealous? Revisited. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43831 bboy_mn wrote and asked: >> In general, there can be no denying that Ron had elements of jealousy and envy, but I am concerned with the very narrow confines of this one event (GOF before task 1). Finally, I'm not trying to dictate reality here, I'm simply taking a poll. A poll in which I know I will always be in the minority opinion. I'm just curious how big that minority is. So, what say you all; jealousy or betrayal? << And I answered: Betrayal. Really Task 2 convinced me of this. Task 2 answers Ron questions of Harry's love and loyalty pretty concretely. Harry and Ron had "made-up" by then and all, but if there were any lingering doubts on Ron's side, I would think that would seal them away. If it had just been based on jealousy purely, then it will raise its ugly head again. Then again, Ron got to share the spotlight with Harry, so it balmed two sore spots. Ron may of blamed his cold shoulder on jealousy to Hermione, but deep down he was deeply betrayed. I think we project our own feels of jealousy into Ron because if we were him, how could we not be jealous of Harry. We all are a little jealous of Harry. Why else would we read these books? We want to be him. Really Ron never has said anything before to Harry about being jealous of him and never has. I think that does say a lot. Either Ron is really good at keeping his mouth shut, or he truly is happy that his best friend does have the good to help soften the bad in his life. A part of Ron, I'm sure, does want to have a Firebolt and nice dress robes, but deep down, where he does not yet how to interpret, Ron deeply loves and needs Harry just as much as Harry loves and needs him. More than any other human in the world as evident in Task Two. But that is my take on things. Melody who is glad for Harry that he would not miss Hagrid the most From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Sep 9 23:34:21 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (bboy_mn) Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 23:34:21 -0000 Subject: Hagrid Flew? In-Reply-To: <00a701c25845$ca606d60$4a112b18@shprd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43832 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Alina" wrote: Jeff (doffy99)wrote: > > > > > > > How did Hagrid fly over to the island to get Harry? > > > > Hagrid isn't a fully trained wizard. He couldn't use > > > > a spell to fly? He obviously couldn't apparate. So how > > > > did he get there? If he KEPT the bike, then he could > > > > have flown that, but where did it go? > > > > ALINA: > What if Hagrid's umbrella doubles as a broom? What if he had a > broom with him that got magically diminished in size and tucked > into one of his pockets? I wouldn't be surprised if many of his > pockets have a diminishing charm on them. > > Alina of Distant Place > http://www.distantplace.net/ OK, Alina, this is a theory I like. When Hagrid said he flew, the most obvious image of a wizard flying is on a broom, and I thought of that before. The thing that always shot it down was 'Where's the broom?'. What did he do with it after he was done flying? Could the broom be sent back on it's own? Just point your wand and say 'go home broom'? Well, we have nothing to support that, but of course, we have a lot of support for enlargement and reduction charms, as well as enchanted wizard space (as in storage space) like the trunk of the Weasley car. So an enlargement charm to the broom so he could ride it comfortably, and a reduction charm on the broom so he could store it comfortably. That's very simple, and straight forward. I don't see those particular charms as extremely advanced, so I have to say, this simple theory is one of the best I've heard so far. On the subject in general- One small problem occurs to me, although it doesn't in any way discredit Alina's theory. When Hagrid takes Harry to the train station and puts him on the train that will take him back to Surrey and the Dursley's, Harry looks out the window to watch Hagrid as the train pulls away, and "...he blinked and Hargrid was gone." So what happened here? Apparate? Portkey? I don't think we should discount Hagrid's magical abilities. He isn't locked in time at age 13 when he was expelled. He's been at the school for over 50 years, and certainly has learn a substantial amount of magic in that time. I think it's pretty obvious that Hogwarts staff looks the other way with regard to Hagrid's magic. While I doubt that he has a license to apparate, I don't discount the possibility that he can. Although, I will admit, Hagrid apparating is a pretty weak theory; apparating is pretty advanced magic. On the other hand, he could have had a portkey who's sole purpose was to take Hagrid back to Hogwarts when his mission was accomplished. An extention of that possiblity is portkey to Diagon Alley, broom to Harry, & portkey back to Hogwarts; fast and efficient. Just some additional thought I had on the subject. The broom reduction charm is so simple and staight forward, and well within Hagrid's magical abilities, that it seems a very likely possibility. bboy_mn From alina at distantplace.net Mon Sep 9 23:45:36 2002 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 19:45:36 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hagrid Flew? References: Message-ID: <00f201c2585a$ff4f8e60$4a112b18@shprd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43833 > On the subject in general- > One small problem occurs to me, although it doesn't in any way > discredit Alina's theory. When Hagrid takes Harry to the train station > and puts him on the train that will take him back to Surrey and the > Dursley's, Harry looks out the window to watch Hagrid as the train > pulls away, and "...he blinked and Hargrid was gone." > > bboy_mn Actually, I just came up with something for that. What if Hagrid stepped through the wall into a "platform 9 3/4" style doorway? After all, there is nothing to tell us that the platform entrance is the only one of its sort! Harry didn't notice it the way all the muggles at the King's Cross don't notice Hogwarts Students. Alina of Distant Place http://www.distantplace.net/ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release Date: 02/08/2002 From Zarleycat at aol.com Tue Sep 10 00:06:47 2002 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 00:06:47 -0000 Subject: Friendships in WW In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43834 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "corinthum" wrote: > Ginny wrote: > > My point is, for those who think Harry or Hermione have too few > > friends, as far as we know, they have MORE friends than anyone else. > > Real, best friend-friends, I mean, not just see-you-in-class > > friends. Is this indicative of something in the > > WW, or just an artifact of JKs focus? > > JUst an artifact of JK's focus, in my opinion. She manages to include > an amazing amount of detail about hundreds of minor characters through > her writing style. But she can't really afford to sidetrack into > minor characters' lives unless it directly impacts Harry's story. I think that's 90 percent of it. If JKR gave us details about every single character's life, we'd be waiting decades for the next book. Not that I wouldn't love to see the background notes she has on the secondary characters like Bill and Charlie. But, to this point, they're not central to the story. In fact, the only other characters that have been spoken about as being great friends are James and Sirius. And we don't learn that until PoA. Perhaps this is to provide a parallel between generations, although I'm not fond of the idea of trying to find exact matches between HHR and MWPP. That always struck me as too neat and precise. But, James, or at least the idealized James in Harry's mind, in an influence on Harry. And one of the few adults he trusts is Sirius, and I'm sure in large part that's because he was James' best friend and, because of that, provides Harry with more than a casual link to his father. As for Harry' contemporaries, we are seeing things mostly through Harry's eyes. Because of that we don't see the love and caring and support that exist between Draco, Crabbe and Goyle. Marianne From rvotaw at i-55.com Tue Sep 10 00:56:45 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 19:56:45 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's Friends/ Betrayal or jealousy? References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020908154143.0421b460@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> Message-ID: <012c01c25864$f0200780$029ecdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 43835 Carol Bainbridge wrote: > I'm not so sure about that. That seems to be from a female point of view, > but boys friendships are always the same. For instance, at one point > (sorry, I forget exactly where), Harry is upset and Ron asks him if he > wants to play Quidditch. Hermione thinks this is terribly insensitive of > Ron, but Harry agrees to it. It's just what Harry wants. I really don't > think boys and girls friendships are the same. Of course, this doesn't > prove that Harry WAS close to his dormmates, just that his not having asked > Neville about his parents isn't proof that he's NOT. Well, the reason I brought up Neville and his parents and the lack of Harry ever asking about them was because of Harry's reaction when Dumbledore told him. GoF, U.S. paperback Edition Ch 30, page 602-603: Harry says: "You know the trial you found me in? The one with Crouch's son? Well . . . were they talking about Neville's parents?" Dumbledore gave Harry a very sharp look. "Has Neville never told you why he has been brought up by his grandmother?" he asked. Harry shook his head, wondering, as he did so, how he could have failed to ask Neville this, in almost four years of knowing him. Harry sat there, horror-struck. He had never known . . . never, in four years, bothered to find out... It's just that, well, one of the first things Ron and Harry chat about is family. And the topic's never come up between him and Neville. It just seems to me that Harry isn't really close to him. And he's almost ashamed of that in GoF. Now, on to other things. On the topic of Ron feeling betrayed or jealous, I think he's always been jealous. That's not a new sensation for him in GoF. He was jealous of Harry's invisibility cloak, of his Quidditch skills, etc. He's still been friends with him, it hasn't effected that. You can still be friends with someone and be jealous of them. I'm jealous of my friend who has two, almost three beautiful children while I have none. Does it affect our friendship? No. The jealousy had not affected Harry and Ron's friendship. But when Ron, who he thought Harry told everything to, suddenly feels that he didn't share something, he feels betrayal for the first time. And that, my friend, is a lot worse than jealousy. He was already jealous of Harry, but had never felt betrayed by him. However, he all but made up with the second task. Since Ron was the one person who meant the most to Harry. Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From miss_dumblydore at yahoo.com Tue Sep 10 01:52:52 2002 From: miss_dumblydore at yahoo.com (Heather Gauen) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 18:52:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups]Why can't Hagrid do magic? (was Hagrid Flew?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020910015252.26779.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43836 All right, this whole Hagrid thread started me thinking (a scary new thing for me!:)). Why, exactly, is Hagrid not allowed to do magic? Canon tells us that he's "not supposed ter do magic, strictly speakin'" and the reason is because of the CoS incident, but this really doesn't make sense to me. I can understand about things that require licenses, like apparition, but why can't he do basic magic? I've heard plenty of speculation on Tom the innkeeper, Madam Rosmerta, Stan Shunpike, etc., and what happens to those who were weren't talented enough to even go to Hogwarts. Don't they ever do magic? (When I can get to my books, I'll look for canon examples myself.) It seems like an awful waste of a gift to not allow someone to use the magic they were born with, especially considering that Hagrid was good enough to go to Hogwarts in the first place. And even if the MoM would have had to closely regulate him when he was still a kid, he's in his sixties now. Old enough to have learned a thing or two despite his lack of schooling. I'm just looking at this in terms of the real world. In the real world, you might have trouble getting a good job without schooling, but you're still allowed to do anything that educated people are. All right, I'm rambling a little now. Comments are appreciated! Heather, who thinks that keeping Hagrid from doing magic after his innocence is revealed is appalling. __________________________________________________ Yahoo! - We Remember 9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost http://dir.remember.yahoo.com/tribute From rvotaw at i-55.com Tue Sep 10 02:26:33 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 21:26:33 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups]Why can't Hagrid do magic? (was Hagrid Flew?) References: <20020910015252.26779.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004201c25871$7babca80$b1a0cdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 43837 Heather writes: > All right, this whole Hagrid thread started me > thinking (a scary new thing for me!:)). Why, exactly, > is Hagrid not allowed to do magic? Canon tells us that > he's "not supposed ter do magic, strictly speakin'" > and the reason is because of the CoS incident, but > this really doesn't make sense to me. I can understand > about things that require licenses, like apparition, > but why can't he do basic magic? Whether I've just always assumed this or whether there's actual canon for it, I'm not sure, but I thought it was part of the bargain made by Dumbledore when Hagrid was expelled. That he would be allowed to remain at Hogwarts, be trained as groundskeeper, as long as he didn't do magic. Though Dumbledore often looks the other way when he does. Good ole Dumbledore. :) > Heather, who thinks that keeping Hagrid from doing > magic after his innocence is revealed is appalling. I think the problem is there is no hard evidence. The diary was destroyed, we have Harry's word for it. Though Dumbledore inevitably believes every word Harry says, not everyone feels that way. Without the diary as proof, there is none. Harry's word was proof enough for Dumbledore, that and the basilisk. Though the basilisk could be considered hard evidence, without proof of the real culprit it's difficult for the simple minded (such as the MoM, in my opinion) to "let go" of the falsely accused. Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From mysmacek at yahoo.com Mon Sep 9 21:06:11 2002 From: mysmacek at yahoo.com (mysmacek) Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 21:06:11 -0000 Subject: AK/ Cruciatus on Spiders In-Reply-To: <008001c256b4$d87a7040$179ccdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43838 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > > It is, as you said, almost a shame the dementors got Crouch Jr. He was such > a perfect bad guy. Cruel and heartless to the core. No visible conscious, > yet he could put on an act. Boy could he put on an act! Some devilish idea: what if a dementor could breath the soul back into a body, if it suit his purpose? Maybe we will re-meet Crouch Jr. after all ;-)) Mysmacek From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Mon Sep 9 22:16:20 2002 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (jkusalavagemd) Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 22:16:20 -0000 Subject: A "Harey" Problem, WAS: Re: Newer UK Edition of CoS Has Three Changes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43839 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "naama2486" wrote: > When Harry and Ron go to Lockhart's office, he tells them about the > witch that banished the banshee. In the old version Lockhart says she > had a "hare lip". On the newer edition, however, she has a "hairy > chin". > > Why change it?! > > HP publishers must be really bored if they make such stupid and > irrelivent changes. Was JKR aware of this? > > Naama the New, A "harelip" is a cleft lip, which is a birth defect that can range from a mild split in the upper lip to a severe cleft palate. It is reparable by surgery-- in the WW by magic as well, no doubt. I fear that this is a case of misplaced sensitivity on the part of the American Editors. One can visualize a harelip without having any desire to ridicule or persecute people with cleft palates. Why censor this? Rather than rob the language of any umpleasant images out of misguided paternalism (or maternalism-- musn't offend any gender!) why not look at it as an opportunity for parents to explain what it is in a sensisitve manner, so that when the child reader actually encounters someone with the defect, they will be prepared to react without shock or surprise? Haggridd From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 9 22:51:19 2002 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 15:51:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hare lip (WAS: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Newer UK Edition of CoS Has Three Changes From Origin...) In-Reply-To: <5a.11439156.2aae6650@aol.com> Message-ID: <20020909225119.83703.qmail@web20003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43840 --- eloiseherisson at aol.com wrote: > I think perhaps it was changed out of sensitivity. > These *aren't* synonyms: > hare lip is a synonym for cleft lip, a common birth > defect and, according to > my dictionary, is often used derisively. To be > honest, I wasn't very > comfortable with the original. I know that > technically it was Lockhart's > prejudice that was showing, but it may not have been > very agreeable to > readers who born with this defect, particularly > children. It highlights > negatively a condition which today is frequently > very successfully treated by > surgery. Children are, I think, less likely to > suffer from hairy chins! I > think JKR's original was a misjudgement and I'm glad > it's been changed. > > Eloise. Personally, I'm more comfortable with the original. It just makes more sense. And, as many have noted, HP isn't about perfect people or perfect situations. If prejudice can exist for race, species, and squibhood (which I would equate with mental retardation or blindness in seriousness rather than associating it with general loserhood) why not physical deformities? It smacks of trying to clean up a world, or at least clean up a character. I thought the original really illustrated Lockhart's despicaleness, and I liked it that way. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com From sugarkadi at aol.com Mon Sep 9 23:35:59 2002 From: sugarkadi at aol.com (maddiehayes01) Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 23:35:59 -0000 Subject: I doubt it was a portkey(Hagrid flew) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43841 Marcus said: > It has to be pre-enchanted to take him where he wants to go. How > would he, or the enchanter know that the Dursleys would be on that > little island? Portkeys are also fairly advanced magic, > certainly > beyond the third year level that he had reached. > Hi! This is my first post, but I've been on the list for a while. I'd just like to point out something about the portkey. Marcus says portkeys have to have a predetermined destination, but the school *did* know where Harry was. When Hagrid finally gets to Harry and has had his yelling bit with Dursley, he hands Harry his letter, on page 51, American hardback. The letter is addressed to: "Mr. H. Potter, The Floor, Hut-on-the-Rock, The Sea." So a portkey can't be ruled out, though I'll admit I don't think that's how it was done, though I suspect that will be revealed later on. I sure hope so, I've been wondering about it for a while! ~Katey From deejay435 at buckeye-express.com Tue Sep 10 01:16:08 2002 From: deejay435 at buckeye-express.com (Denise Jurski) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 21:16:08 -0400 Subject: Betrayal or Jealousy? Hagrid's flying References: <1031612108.1991.1204.m10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <006001c25867$a53e6240$6501a8c0@buckeyecablesystem.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43842 Bugaloo says: >IMO,simply put- >a sense of betrayal is certainly present -but the root goes deeper >than that- I believe Ron's resentment/jealosy concerning his family's > >poverty is the main issue. I think this hits the nail on the head. Throughout the series we've seen Ron's major personal demon is his family's poverty. We've seen it over and over, how he thinks everything he own is 'rubbish', how Malfoy is /really/ able to get his goat by harping on the poor Weasley's theme, how he wishes he could just once have something decent. He is keenly aware of what other people have that he doesn't. We haven't really seen Ron having issues with trust, mistrust, lack of friendships, or feeling inferior (other than because of his poverty) that would lead me to think that Ron would have major issues with betrayal. I think as Bugaloo says, there may have been some aspect of that in the scene quoted, but I think the betrayal was really a mask to cover his jealousy. It's far more acceptable, even to ourselves, to say we're mad because a friend betrayed us, than because he got something, again, that he wanted. Jeff asks: >The question becomes I guess, How did Hagrid get to the Island where >Uncle Vernon had Harry stashed to avoid those letters? We know he >flew, but HOW did he fly? I'd say a broom. It might not be comfy for him, but there is no reason to think he couldn't fly a broom from the books, at least I think there isn't? I would guess the broom is just hidden in his copious garments on the way back. Being he's half giant, I wouldn't think it would be hard to strap a broom on his back and hide it under his coat. Denise From candlewick4 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 10 02:52:43 2002 From: candlewick4 at yahoo.com (candlewick) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 19:52:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hagrid Flew? and Friendships in WW/ Wands In-Reply-To: <1031612108.1991.1204.m10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20020910025243.46032.qmail@web12403.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43843 Please forgive if this duplicates a previous post. I am on digest. > From: "Leon Adato" > I would have to agree with both Grace and the other > person (sorry, forgot name and deleted the email) > who envisioned "Hagrid Poppins" (or would that > be "Mary Hagrid"?) floating over on his pink > umbrella. Actually, wouldn't it be "Rubeus Poppins"? Anyway, I know I read (cannon) somewhere (can anyone help me on where?) that Hagrid's umbrella *supposedly?* contains the remnants from his broken wand, so I think it is a good possibility he could use it to fly. Is there another reason for him to carry a pink parasol? > From: Susanne > I just can't believe that everyone in the wizard > world who > ends up with a willow/unicorn hair wand faces an > almost certain (if noble) death. Here's my theory: Ron's new wand's unicorn hair core is a hair from *the same unicorn* as Cedric Diggory's. And I don't remember reading anywhere in GoF that Harry brought Cedric's wand back when he brought Cedric's body back. So perhaps now Cedric's wand is in the possession of LV or a DE, and it will have the same connection to Ron's wand as Harry's and LV's wands have with their shared phoenix feather cores. Is there something in cannon about Cedric's wand after he dies? Candlewick - who has 3 sons that barely allow her time to post, much less look things up in cannon :P Thanks for the help! __________________________________________________ Yahoo! - We Remember 9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost http://dir.remember.yahoo.com/tribute From smellee17 at hotmail.com Tue Sep 10 03:20:57 2002 From: smellee17 at hotmail.com (smellee17) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 03:20:57 -0000 Subject: Wand mix up/ House Elf Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43844 Sorry about the wand mix up in my previous post. I read the post fast and thought Lilly's wand was made of mahogany. Whoops! Bad smellee, Bad smellee (Proceeding to bad head against computer) If only I was a house elf, banging my head against the desk would recieve such strange looks. Kidding though, but I read about a theory in previous post (#43760) that Dumbledore is a house elf. Being as that caught me completely by suprise and that I love twists, I must support such theory. The only person in the whole series who has been invisible without the aid of an invisibility cloak is Dumbledore. Even MoodyCrouch had one. So maybe Dumbledore is the only wizard who can become invisible. The mark of a good house elf is that you never know that they are there. Maybe house elfs can become invisible so they can do their chores unobtrusively. Probably a silly theory, but fun. Plus, it explains why he sees socks in the mirror. :) signed smellee From kaityf at jorsm.com Tue Sep 10 03:35:23 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 22:35:23 -0500 Subject: More on Snape/Hagrid Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020909220027.01f0fdd0@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> No: HPFGUIDX 43845 Since the recent discussion about Snape, I've been rereading PS/SS, seeing things I had so mindlessly glossed over, but now take on a very different meaning. In Chapter 8, Harry, along with Ron, visits Hagrid for the first time and at this meeting, Harry tells Hagrid about his first potions lesson with Snape. He also tells Hagrid that Snape seems to hate him. Hagrid replies, "Rubbish! ... Why should he?" This seems like Hagrid is simply dismissing Harry's feelings and as others have mentioned, supporting the teachers. It does seem quite in character with Hagrid that he wouldn't think badly of any teacher. However, the narrative continues with: " Yet Harry couldn't help thinking that Hagrid didn't quite meet his eyes when he said that." Then Hagrid changes the subject, asking Ron about his brother Charlie. The narrative again: "Harry wondered if Hagrid had changed the subject on purpose." The first times I read this book, I was just figuring that JKR was setting us up to see Snape as the villain, but now I'm not so sure. The last line of the chapter reads, "And did Hagrid know something about Snape that he didn't want to tell Harry?" Just what would that something be? We know now that there is something about Snape: he was a DE. But why try to hide that from Harry? What would the connection be to Snape's hating Harry, which is all Harry was concerned about at the time? The other possibility of a something that Hagrid knew about Snape is the trick Sirius and Harry's father played on Snape. Would this be something Hagrid would know in detail? Would he know that Snape carried a grudge about it? I don't know. I suppose that's possible, but I can't help thinking that there's something more. Then there's the dream that Harry had the night of the hat-sorting ceremony. He dreamt that he was wearing Quirrell's turban, which was telling him that his "destiny" was to be in Slytherin. He tried to pull the turban off, but couldn't, and as he was trying to get it off, Malfoy was laughing at him. Then "...Malfoy turned into the hook-nosed teacher, Snape, whose laugh became high and cold -- there was a burst of green light and Harry woke, sweating and shaking." Now I realize it is far-fetched to think that there is some connection. However, I did find it all interesting, given what we know about the Malfoys and Snape now. At the time Harry had his dream, he had no idea what that green light was about or the high-pitched laugh. We find out in PoA about the high-pitched laugh. Harry vaguely remembers a green light, but it's not till GoF that he knows just how significant that light is. I'm not suggesting that Snape was with Voldemort when Harry's parents were killed, but I do wonder if there's something more about Snape that Hagrid knows and if that something has anything to do with the night that Hagrid picked Harry up from the ruins of the Potter house. Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From kaityf at jorsm.com Tue Sep 10 03:43:56 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 22:43:56 -0500 Subject: Neville and the sorting hat Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020909223526.01f11ec0@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> No: HPFGUIDX 43846 Something struck me about the sorting hat's response to Neville. It's not a big line, but I wonder about its meaning now: "The hat took a long time to decide with Neville." Every time I read that line, I just assumed that because Neville was such a klutz -- and not terribly magical -- the hat had a tough time figuring out where he belonged. Now I have to wonder, especially with, but not exclusively because of, the possibility that Neville will be working for Voldemort under the imperious charm. I sure wish we heard what the hat was saying as it figured where to put Neville as we heard it talk to Harry. Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From jodel at aol.com Tue Sep 10 04:24:40 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 00:24:40 EDT Subject: Wands, Wood and Core Message-ID: <19d.85bfa81.2aaece08@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43847 This particular discussion blew up on one of my other boards as well, and I thought that I would cross-post one of my replies on that one here since it is related. On that list (One of the Snape lists) someone writing a fanfic wanted to know whether anyone had suggestions for what Snape's wand consists of. Someone who already had a fanfic up mentioned it, her vote was for white cherry (deception) and dragon heartstring. I wasn't sure of that, myself... My post follows (very lightly edited); ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------- Well if it is an Olivander wand -- and the probability is that it is -- then it would be limited to one of the three core types that Olivander states in Stone. Evidently he only uses those since they have proved out to be the most consistent and reliable. I agree with the general concensus that unicorn hair seems an unlikely choice for Snape. Actually, we have been given strong hints that unicorn hair is particularly suitable for charms work. Lily Evans, Charley and Ron Weasley have all been shown to have (or have had) unicorn hair wands, and I suspect that unicorn hair may be the core of choice for the whole Weasley family. The magical properties and strengths of dragon heartstring are still a bit uncertain. I think the only people who have been identified as having had a dragon heartstring wands so far are Hagrid. (Oak, 16 inches) and Victor Krum (cedar, don't recall length). It seems quite possible that dragon heartstring is simply a good all-round magical conductor, but it may have some specific strengths which have not yet been made clear. (If Hagrid is a typical example, perhaps it's strenths are in dealing with the natural world, Herbology, control of Creatures, healing, etc.) Hagrid himself admits that he was never very much of a wizard, even before he was expelled. But since he only went through three years of training his own particular gifts may not have surfaced by then. Fanon tends to regard dragon heartstring as the core of choice for Slytherins, but there doesn't seem to be any canon support to this interpretation. Possibly this view arose because unlike unicorn Hair and phoenix feather, dragon heartstring absolutely requires the death of the dragon. (A thing which looks suspiciously like a plot bunny keeps sniffing around my heels trying to convince me that IF Rowling is going in for symetry, since Harry uses phoenix and Ron unicorn cored wands, it stands to reason that Hermione's would need to be dragon heartstring to complete the set. Since I am not a writer I keep kicking the creature away.) Actually I wouldn't really be at all surprised to discover that also Snape uses a phoenix feather wand. Phoenix feather seems to be a natural choice for specialists in the sort of magic that deals with Change (Potions, Alchemy, Transfiguration) The snag to this is that it starts looking as though phoenix feather wands are a bit overly thick on the ground. Harry uses one. We know that Tom Riddle uses one. We are left to suspect that James Potter may have used one (Olivander states that his mahogany wand was "excellent for Transfiguration") and it's hard to imagine Dumbledore using anything else. In all, if we are limited to only three core types, then it seems that the shadings and nuances of character from wand to wand of Olivander's output depends more upon the wood type than the core material. And there is an amazingly wide range of potential wood types. Some of them (like the canon authorized Holly and Yew) heavily loaded with symbolism. On one of the lists (*Note: this one probably, but I'm too lazy to go digging to find the poster's name.) , someone made a reference to a site listing the symbolism of various trees. The main site, when I investigated, apeared to only be be regarding the Caledonian forest and various trees native to it. I read through a number of the wood types there, and think a good arguement could be made in favor of Juniper. It is a bush or small tree, and native to the British isles (and much of the rest of Europe, I suspect.) Its most widely known use is of the fruit for flavoring liquor, and in addition, it has a reputation of being favored by people distilling illegally since the wood burns with very little smoke (steath brewing?) and, what is even more interesting, the smoke that it does produce is very aromatic and in folk remedies is used medicinally for purification. All of which sounded just terribly appopriate for a Potions Master. An added kicker is that it is commonly refered to as "Scottish yew". But some of the other trees listed had some fairly interesting symbolism attached to them as well. Kate Greenaway's Language of Flowers lists Juniper as symbolizing Succour or Protection. Regular Yew signifies Sorrow. (No listing for mahogany in Greenaway, sorry.) >From Greenaway, Holly symbolises Foresight. And although oak leaves are for Bravery the oak tree is Hospitality, white oak is Independence. There turn out to be several willows; creeping willow (probably not a tree) = Love Forsaken water willow = Freedom weeping willow = Mourning willow herb (not actually a tree, I suspect) = Pretension French willow = Bravery and Humanity (somehow one suspects that Weasleys' wands are French willow. Lily Evans's wand was also stated as being willow.) (Quillusion's white cherry is also listed as "winter" cherry in Greenaway's list. This could be a typo.) A few more from Greenaway; Black Poplar = Courage Sycamore = Curiosity Cypress = Death, Despair Blackthorn = Difficulty Dogwood = Durability Locust Tree = Elegance Plum tree = Fidelity Accacia = Friendship Orange Tree = Generosity Plane Tree = Genius Bay Tree = Glory Myrrh = Gladness Hawthorn & Flowering Almond = Hope Cherry Tree (common) = Good Education Ash Tree = Grandeur Locust Tree = Elegance Spruce Pine = Hope in Adversity Cedar of Lebanon = Incoruptable Wild Plum = Independence Walnut = Intellect Aspen Tree = Lamentation Live Oak = Liberty Myrtle = Love Chesnut Tree = Luxury Birch = Meekness American Elm = Patriotism Olive = Peace Pine = Pity Privet = Prohibition (?!) Fig Tree = Prolific (Well maybe not ALL the Weasleys use French willow...) Beech Tree = Prosperity Mountain Ash = Protection Filbert/Hazel = Reconciliation Maple = Reserve Barbury tree = Sharpness Box tree = Stoicism Cedar = Strength Apple = Temptation White Poplar = Time Elder = Zealousness There were some others and I probably missed a few more, but these all seemed semi-reasonable for virtuous wands.) -JOdel From eloiseherisson at aol.com Tue Sep 10 09:15:34 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 05:15:34 EDT Subject: Why can't Hagrid do magic?and related musings (was Hagrid Flew?) Message-ID: <22.2e8b5b11.2aaf1236@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43848 Heather: Why, exactly, > is Hagrid not allowed to do magic? Eloise: I have always assumed in the past that it is *partly* because he is not 'qualified', in the same way that under-age wizards are not allowed to practise magic outside school. But I'm not certain this is right. He doesn't (officially) have a wand and we know that wand access is restricted. Well, I don't know if there's a restriction on who can go into Ollivander's and buy one (if he's willing to sell), but we know that wizard law restricts their *use* to wizards. Having one's wand snapped seems pretty much the equivalent of being told you must never again use one. It's pretty clear that Hagrid *is* still using his concealed, snapped wand and I think this is primarily what he's referring to. I also suspect that Dumbledore is well aware of this and that his permission to use magic to rescue Harry was a tacit understanding between the two of them on the matter. The implication that he has his wand hidden in his umbrella does lead one to speculate if he flew Mary Poppins style. I hope he did, as it's just such a wonderful image! And yes, it was a punishment - he wasn't *allowed* to qualify and his wand was snapped - for what he was thought to have done the first time the Chamber was opened. Heather: I've heard plenty of speculation on Tom the innkeeper, > Madam Rosmerta, Stan Shunpike, etc., and what happens to those who were > weren't talented enough to even go to Hogwarts. Don't they ever do magic? > (When I can get > to my books, I'll look for canon examples myself.) > Eloise: That is a very good question, which I think depends on the premise that you have to be 'qualified' to do magic. Tom certainly uses magic, lighting a fire (wandlessly). In fact, living as they do in the WW, life must be extremely hard if they don't use magic. Just think of all the things we do which depend on electricity, to which they have no access. I wonder if we can justify assuming that some of these don't go to Hogwarts? We have seen a limited number of employment opportunities for Hogwarts school- leavers, the only ones that I can recall seeing to be 'professional', being teaching, journalism, or working for the MoM or Gringotts. How many can they take each year? Particularly given wizard longevity. There must be many more who, despite being fully qualified either go into the family business, or trade, or service provision. How do we know the Trolley Witch didn't go through Hogwarts and now runs a family business which includes the Hogwarts Express contract? I admit that I can't see Stan and Ernie at Hogwarts, but I do find it curious that we only see one person with a very strong regional accent (strong to the point of using seriously non-standard English) at Hogwarts, viz. Hagrid. Is he an exception? Or are we not seeing others? Heather: It > seems like an awful waste of a gift to not allow > someone to use the magic they were born with, > especially considering that Hagrid was good enough to > go to Hogwarts in the first place. Eloise: It is a sad fact that many people in this life cannot use the gifts they are born with. Perhaps this is part of the message? Heather: <>> > I'm just looking at this in terms of the real world. > In the real world, you might have trouble getting a > good job without schooling, but you're still allowed > to do anything that educated people are. Eloise: Agreed, to an extent. But in the real world, you aren't allowed to drive if you haven't passed your driving test: you are not allowed to wield that lethal weapon which is a car, just as a wand is a lethal weapon. There are lots of things you're not allowed to do. I can't decide to perform an operation on someone, just because I think I'm capable. And Hagrid's restriction is, I think, a *punishment*. It is a major punishment, for what was seen as a major misdemeanor. Although, thinking about it, I'm not sure about that now. Ollivander seems to imply that having one's wand broken is the natural consequence of being expelled. But perhaps this implies that *expulsion* is a *very* major thing and we shouldn't be surprised that, despite constant threats, Hagrid is the only expellee of whom we know. Heather: > <>Heather, who thinks that keeping Hagrid from doing > magic after his innocence is revealed is appalling. > Eloise: As do I. Although his innocence isn't officially recognised, I think. The Wizard World and Harry's experience of it are full of injustices. Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bdmorrp at budget.state.ny.us Tue Sep 10 13:33:38 2002 From: bdmorrp at budget.state.ny.us (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 13:33:38 -0000 Subject: A "Harey" Problem, WAS: Re: Newer UK Edition of CoS Has Three Changes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43849 Haggridd (jkusalavagemd) wrote: > I fear that this is a case of misplaced sensitivity on the part of > the American Editors. One can visualize a harelip without having > any desire to ridicule or persecute people with cleft palates. Why > censor this? Now me: I have both the UK and the US versions, and both say "hare lip" (see post #43829). I don't think we can blame the American editors for this one, but I'm still waiting to hear which edition says "hairy chin." ~Phyllis From bdmorrp at budget.state.ny.us Tue Sep 10 13:40:44 2002 From: bdmorrp at budget.state.ny.us (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 13:40:44 -0000 Subject: Quirrell's Tenure (WAS: Quirrell) In-Reply-To: <170.1368a813.2aad0e7d@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43850 Constance Vigilance wrote: > My understanding was that Quirrel was the DADA teacher, and > presumably a good one, for some years until he decided to go on > sabbatical for some practical experience - with the results we all > know. Then after he came back as Quirrelmort, we don't know how many > years prior to Harry's introduction that he taught at Hogwarts. and Eloise responded: > This is a thorny one. At least, the evidence is rather > contradictory. The way Hagrid speaks about Quirrell, it does sound > as if he'd been teaching at Hogwarts, went off in sabbatical and > came back. But Hagrid also says that Lockhart was the only > applicant for the post as no one had lasted long for a while and > the job was thought to be jinxed. now me: I was always under the impression that Quirrell was only at Hogwarts for one year, based on the following quote from PoA: "Harry, Ron and Hermione had already had two Defense Against the Dark Arts teachers, both of whom had only lasted one year" (Chapter 5 - UK ed., p. 60, US ed., p. 75). But it's possible that Quirrell taught a different subject before he took that fateful trip to Albania. I think the Movie That Must Not Be Named adds to the confusion when Percy tells Harry that "Snape's been after Quirrell's job *for years*." ~Phyllis From crussell at arkansas.net Tue Sep 10 15:02:37 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 15:02:37 -0000 Subject: Why can't Hagrid do magic?and related musings (was Hagrid Flew?) In-Reply-To: <22.2e8b5b11.2aaf1236@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43851 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., eloiseherisson at a... wrote: > Heather: > > Heather, who thinks that keeping Hagrid from doing > > magic after his innocence is revealed is appalling. > > > Eloise: > As do I. Although his innocence isn't officially recognised, I think. > The Wizard World and Harry's experience of it are full of injustices. > > I just wanted to put my two cents in on this issue. I have stated in a previous post regarding the DADA teaching position that politics are very much prevalent in the WW. In fact, IMO, the WW is full of all the worst aspects of human behavior including injustice/favoritism. The pureblood/mudblood issue is just the tip of the iceberg so far as injustice/predjudice is concerned. IMO, novels typically are a reflection of how the writer views the world- its triumphs and its failures, the best of human nature and the worst. JKR has created the WW to allow us a better understanding of our own world and ourselves. In reference to Hagrid, there appears to be more to his punishment than retribution for his crime- it also appears to be connected somewhat to the fact that he is half-giant. Giants seem to be a somewhat ill regarded segment of the WW. Thus we see at the end of book 4, Dumbledore making an attempt via Hagrid and Madame Maxime to bring the giants back into the mainstream of the WW- so to speak- before they can be recruited by Voldemort-who seems to be able to play off the weak/unsupported of the WW quite well i.e. Pettigrew. IMO, the WW has already paid a high price for its mistakes-and it looks like it still has some lessons to learn. bugaloo37 From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Tue Sep 10 15:32:25 2002 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (Marcus ) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 15:32:25 -0000 Subject: I doubt it was a portkey(Hagrid flew) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43852 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "maddiehayes01" wrote: > Hi! This is my first post, but I've been on the list for a while. > So a portkey can't be > ruled out, though I'll admit I don't think that's how it was done, > though I suspect that will be revealed later on. I sure hope so, > I've been wondering about it for a while! > > ~Katey You are, of course, correct. Logistically it would have been a nightmare though. Besides, the "not saying portkeyed instead of flying because of Harry's ignorance" idea forgets one thing -- Hagrid. He is not known for subtlety. :) Marcus From bdmorrp at budget.state.ny.us Tue Sep 10 15:34:22 2002 From: bdmorrp at budget.state.ny.us (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 15:34:22 -0000 Subject: Why Can't Hagrid Be Readmitted to Hogwarts? (WAS: Why can't Hagrid do magic?) In-Reply-To: <22.2e8b5b11.2aaf1236@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43853 Heather wrote: > Why, exactly, is Hagrid not allowed to do magic? It seems > like an awful waste of a gift to not allow someone to use the magic > they were born with, especially considering that Hagrid was good > enough to go to Hogwarts in the first place. Now me: What I've always wondered is why Hagrid wasn't readmitted to Hogwarts to finish his schooling after his name was cleared. In the US, people go back to school at all ages - even into their nineties. Hagrid is probably in his mid-sixties (assuming he was 13 at the time he was expelled, which was 50 years ago), and given a wizard's extended lifetime, he has plenty of years ahead in which to put a Hogwarts education to good use. Is this a cultural difference, perhaps - is it not as readily accepted in the UK to go back to school in later life as it is in the US? It was nice of Dumbledore to put Hagrid in a teaching position, but I think it would have been more meaningful to allow Hagrid to finish his schooling so he could have become a fully qualified wizard (and think of how much fun JKR could have with Hagrid in Harry's classes!). ~Phyllis From kaityf at jorsm.com Tue Sep 10 14:10:12 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 09:10:12 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Quirrell's Tenure (WAS: Quirrell) In-Reply-To: References: <170.1368a813.2aad0e7d@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020910085816.04a89ec0@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> No: HPFGUIDX 43854 >~Phyllis wrote: >I was always under the impression that Quirrell was only at Hogwarts >for one year, based on the following quote from PoA: "Harry, Ron and >Hermione had already had two Defense Against the Dark Arts teachers, >both of whom had only lasted one year" (Chapter 5 - UK ed., p. 60, US >ed., p. 75). But it's possible that Quirrell taught a different >subject before he took that fateful trip to Albania. I suppose that is possibly, but it's also possible that the reference to each of the two teachers lasting only one year, refers to one year of instruction for Harry, Ron, and Hermione. It's rather ambiguous, IMO. ~Phyllis again: >I think the >Movie That Must Not Be Named adds to the confusion when Percy tells >Harry that "Snape's been after Quirrell's job *for years*." That's a comment that leads to the interpretation of the quotation above that Quirrell lasted only one year after the trio started at Hogwarts. Of course, Percy could have meant that Snape had for years been after the job that Quirrell now has. Then again, I would think that he would have said, "Snape's been after the DADA job for years." I have to say that the evidence seems to point more to the idea that Quirrell has held this job for at least a few years and that he had been pretty good at it until he tried to go beyond book learning. Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From kristilynn5 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 10 14:51:41 2002 From: kristilynn5 at yahoo.com (Kristi Smith) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 07:51:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: A "Harey" Problem, WAS: Re: Newer UK Edition of CoS Has Three Changes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020910145141.80776.qmail@web40305.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43855 I have both the UK and the US versions, and both say "hare lip" (see post #43829). I don't think we can blame the American editors for this one, but I'm still waiting to hear which edition says "hairy chin." ~Phyllis I have a UK paperback edition, obviously not a first edition, that says "hairy chin." My American paperback says "harelip." Personally, I prefer the original wordage, but then again I don't like the fact that they even have "UK editions" and "US editions". I prefer reading the UK editions because I feel they are in the purist form. I do not see the need to Americanize these works of literature. Stepping down from her soap box, Kristi Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Yahoo! - We Remember 9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From fyredriftwood at yahoo.com Tue Sep 10 17:23:12 2002 From: fyredriftwood at yahoo.com (Fyre Drift Wood) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 17:23:12 -0000 Subject: Neville, the sorting hat, and N.I.N.E In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020909223526.01f11ec0@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43856 Carol Bainbridge decided to type: > Something struck me about the sorting hat's response to Neville. It's not > a big line, but I wonder about its meaning now: > > "The hat took a long time to decide with Neville." > Fyre Wood (ME!) Replies.. woo-hoo! I think that the sorting hat looks deeply into oneself and then decides where to place it based on two things. The first is the personality characteristics that qualify to be placed in one of the four houses. We know what those are (bravery, ambition, loyalty, or intelligence). However, what if perhaps the sorting hat also grants the desires of not only house placement, but just desires in general. Harry pretty much just chose his house... ("...not Slytherin. Not Slytherin.") and perhaps Neville did the same. Could Neville have been thinking the following which sitting under the hat? Neville: "Oh gosh, everyone hates me already because I'm an incompetant moron who can't keep my toad near me... don't put me in that wretched Hufflepuff house where you're considered to be the 'Hogwarts Hippies' and care about nothing... but just being loyal." (Okay, that was totally sarcastic and inappropriate, but you get the point. Please don't flame me for that^_~). Perhaps Neville (like Harry) was having a detailed conversation with the hat and he was later placed into Gryffindor. Neville has shown all the qualities of that house thus far, but perhaps there are more that he has yet to show us. I'm still waiting for Neville to wow the pants off of Snape in potions and maybe to do something great and impress the general student population at the school. We do know that Neville has a lot more guts than Harry and Ron since he did attempt to get a date before either of them at the Yule Ball. He asked Hermione, then Ginny... all before Harry and Ron decided that they needed to get in contact with their courage and just go out there and find a date. They were lucky that the Patil twins were available--- I would have found it better if they had went together just to prove that waiting until the last minute gets you no where. ____________________ Carol Bainbridge continued with: > Every time I read that line, I just assumed that because Neville was such a > klutz -- and not terribly magical -- the hat had a tough time figuring out > where he belonged. Now I have to wonder, especially with, but not > exclusively because of, the possibility that Neville will be working for > Voldemort under the imperious charm. Fyre Wood (ME!) replies... YAY! I agree with you here completely. I at first thought that it was because he was nearly a squib that it took so darn long. I sincerely doubt that Neville is going to turn evil. I'm proud to be a member of "N.I.N.E" which stands for "Neville Is Not Evil." (Sweet, I jusdt came up with one of those creative letter-phrase thingies ^_~... hooray!*Ahem* I will try to contain my excitement for the rest of this post.) Neville, like I posted earlier, will do something great. JKR has written too many times about the screw ups of Longbottom and she always does the unexpected. The average reader (one who is NOT a member of this group and tries to over analyse the littlest detail) will think that he'll turn evil and work for Voldy. It will in fact be the opposite. I think that Carol Bainbridge brought up a brilliant point that I hope will continued to be argued. I would love to argue with someone about this =) --Fyre Wood, who now ends this post because she just realized she's late for class... and yes, I'm a girl, as hard as that is to believe ;) From fyredriftwood at yahoo.com Tue Sep 10 17:26:52 2002 From: fyredriftwood at yahoo.com (Fyre Drift Wood) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 17:26:52 -0000 Subject: Dementors giving life back?! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43857 Mysmacek came up with a brilliant idea: > Some devilish idea: what if a dementor could breath the soul back into > a body, if it suit his purpose? Maybe we will re-meet Crouch Jr. after > all ;-)) > Fyre Wood (Me!) Replies: Maybe that is why the dementors are allies with Voldy and his crew of Death Eaters. If they can take life away with a kiss, why not just give it back with yet another kiss? And if one soul can be returned, why not give one person two souls to make them twice as strong. Mysmacek might just be onto something here. Sweet. --Fyre Wood, who now runs late to class... From uncmark at yahoo.com Tue Sep 10 17:32:03 2002 From: uncmark at yahoo.com (Mark D.) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 17:32:03 -0000 Subject: Hagrid , magic and dragons (was Why can't Hagrid do magic?) In-Reply-To: <20020910015252.26779.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43858 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Heather Gauen wrote: > All right, this whole Hagrid thread started me > thinking (a scary new thing for me!:)). Why, exactly, > is Hagrid not allowed to do magic? Canon tells us that > he's "not supposed ter do magic, strictly speakin'" > and the reason is because of the CoS incident, but > this really doesn't make sense to me. I can understand > about things that require licenses, like apparition, > but why can't he do basic magic? As I understood Hagrid's situation in SSt and CofS, he needed special permission to do magic. (He asked Dumbledore for a charm to use on the henhouse when the controlled Ginny killed the roosters). On the subject of Hagrid flying, WHY does everyone ignore the obvious? Beyond portkeys, flying motorcycles, and Apparition (which is one of the most difficult spells) why couldn't Hagrid simply use a broom? Dumbledore could easily have given him and invisibility charm "I don't need a cloak to be invisible" SSt Ch 12 Concerning Heather, "who thinks that keeping Hagrid from doing magic after his innocence is revealed is appalling." who says he doesn't? After being cleared, Hagrid should have full rights after ChofS. I'm reasonably sure he did magic covertly in the first 2 books(with Dumbledore's knowledge). He used engorgement on the pumpkins in ChofS, and as he did ask for the simple matter of the hen house and I'm sure he would for the the pumpkins. Agreed it isn't spelled out in canon, but the books are Harry-centric by definition of their titles. I was reading Fantastic Beasts with my niece and we were discussing Hagrid. From the forward, Newt Skamander rewrote an earlier edition. Considering what Hagrid has shown the students concerning Acromantula, Hippogriffs, and Centaurs. Also FB leaves out a lot about giants & mermen specifically (are are those beings instead of beasts?) I would like to see Hagrid rewrite FB at some future date. My niece loved Norbert and hated the his part was so reduced in the movie. She wonders if Norbert will reunite with Hagrid for the great battle against Valdemort. Would it be stealing too much from Dragonriders to show Hagrid and Norbert racing into battle together? Uncmark From jodel at aol.com Tue Sep 10 16:22:51 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 12:22:51 EDT Subject: Cedric's Wand (was; various) Message-ID: <163.13a157fb.2aaf765b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43859 Candlewick writes; << Here's my theory: Ron's new wand's unicorn hair core is a hair from *the same unicorn* as Cedric Diggory's. And I don't remember reading anywhere in GoF that Harry brought Cedric's wand back when he brought Cedric's body back. So perhaps now Cedric's wand is in the possession of LV or a DE, and it will have the same connection to Ron's wand as Harry's and LV's wands have with their shared phoenix feather cores. >> Oh, I like that. Particularly given that we know that Pettigrew is the DE who is the most likely candidate to be short of a wand. (And I suspect he may have been good at Charms in his Hogwarts days, and therefore a very likely former owner of a unicorn hair wand.) A Ron-Pettigrew axis seems singularly fitting in that the Weasleys are second only to the Potters in a list of people whose trust Pettigrew has abused. Could be very promising, if Rowling chooses to make use of it. (And, no, there is no suggestion that Harry recovered Cedric's wand, unless Cedric was holding it in a "death grip".) -JOdel From candlewick4 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 10 16:57:50 2002 From: candlewick4 at yahoo.com (candlewick4) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 16:57:50 -0000 Subject: Why Can't Hagrid Be Readmitted to Hogwarts? (WAS: Why can't Hagrid do magic?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43860 "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: In the US, > people go back to school at all ages - even into their nineties. > Hagrid is probably in his mid-sixties (assuming he was 13 at the time > he was expelled, which was 50 years ago), and given a wizard's > extended lifetime, he has plenty of years ahead in which to put a > Hogwarts education to good use. Is this a cultural difference, > perhaps - is it not as readily accepted in the UK to go back to > school in later life as it is in the US? Isn't Hogwarts the US equiv. of middle/high school? In the US, you don't see 60-year-olds roaming the halls of the local high unless they're teachers. Once you're over 16 and drop out of school, it is my understanding that "night school" and GEDs are your best chance of getting a high school diploma. Maybe Hagrid is going to "knight school" (like the "knight bus", not to *be* a knight). Candlewick - who is sorry she misspelled "canon" more than once in her last post. How embarassing. Spelling is not her strong point. From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Tue Sep 10 17:09:21 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (CHRISTOPHER NUTTALL) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 18:09:21 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why Can't Hagrid Be Readmitted to Hogwarts? (WAS: Why can't Hagrid do magic?) References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43861 ----- Original Message ----- From: erisedstraeh2002 Heather wrote: > Why, exactly, is Hagrid not allowed to do magic? It seems > like an awful waste of a gift to not allow someone to use the magic > they were born with, especially considering that Hagrid was good > enough to go to Hogwarts in the first place. Now me: What I've always wondered is why Hagrid wasn't readmitted to Hogwarts to finish his schooling after his name was cleared. In the US, people go back to school at all ages - even into their nineties. Hagrid is probably in his mid-sixties (assuming he was 13 at the time he was expelled, which was 50 years ago), and given a wizard's extended lifetime, he has plenty of years ahead in which to put a Hogwarts education to good use. Is this a cultural difference, perhaps - is it not as readily accepted in the UK to go back to school in later life as it is in the US? It was nice of Dumbledore to put Hagrid in a teaching position, but I think it would have been more meaningful to allow Hagrid to finish his schooling so he could have become a fully qualified wizard (and think of how much fun JKR could have with Hagrid in Harry's classes!). ~Phyllis Perhaps Hagrid does not WANT to be readmitted. Hes a grown adult so he might feel ashamed of himself in a classroom of children. Perhaps he takes private tution from one of the teachers. Chris Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sugarkadi at aol.com Tue Sep 10 17:09:40 2002 From: sugarkadi at aol.com (maddiehayes01) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 17:09:40 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why Can't Hagrid Be Readmitted to Hogwarts? (WAS: Why can't Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43862 Phyllis wrote: > Is this a cultural difference, > perhaps - is it not as readily accepted in the UK to go > back to > school in later life as it is in the US? I know that that is the case in Germany. My friend's mom lived their during her youth, and tells us that if you don't have you're act together by 5th grade or so, your future doesn't look very good. The same friend went to Germany this summer to stay with a girl who came here last year. She said that something that really bothered her was the host girl's attitude and, what seemed to her, peoples' attitudes in general, to people who don't go to the Gymnasium(the highest high school); she said her host girl said people who go to the lower schools aren't as smart: people with bad home lives, one parent, parents who beat them, that type of thing. Of course my friend pointed out that coming from a bad home does not make you stupid. But to get to my point, I would imagine that England is more like Germany than the US. America is one of the few countries where you can mess around until your 20s, sometimes even 30s, and still be successful. I think attitudes toward Hagrid are just another aspect of English society put into the WW. ~Katey PS-just to make sure people understand, I'm not bad-mouthing Germany or England. I've been to both places before and they're absolutely wonderful. That's just a bad aspect of their countries, as the US and all other countries have their bad aspects. =) From niemuthervin at worldnet.att.net Tue Sep 10 17:15:34 2002 From: niemuthervin at worldnet.att.net (animagi_raven) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 17:15:34 -0000 Subject: Why Can't Hagrid Do Magic? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43863 Heather mused whimsically in message #43836: >All right, this whole Hagrid thread started me >thinking (a scary new thing for me!:)). Why, exactly, >is Hagrid not allowed to do magic? Canon tells us that >he's "not supposed ter do magic, strictly speakin'" >and the reason is because of the CoS incident, but >this really doesn't make sense to me. I can understand >about things that require licenses, like apparition, >but why can't he do basic magic? > > > >Heather, who thinks that keeping Hagrid from doing >magic after his innocence is revealed is appalling. IIRC Hagrid was expelled from Hogworts for raising dangerous animals in secret. IMO it was suspected that the professors glossed over the opening of the CoS as a rumor. The student death was probably blamed on the spider (but how did a spider turn someone to stone?), but some- like Dumbledore and Hagrid - knew that the spider was not responsible. And did suspect that the Chamber had been opened. The fact that Tom Riddle found out Hagrid and then the basilisk was no longer active, might have tipped Dumbledore off to Tom Riddle's true nature. Animagi_Raven who has a paper cut... anyone have a phoenix handy? From MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Sep 10 18:14:43 2002 From: MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM (mitchbailey82) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 18:14:43 -0000 Subject: Quirrell's Tenure (WAS: Quirrell) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43864 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: > I was always under the impression that Quirrell was only at Hogwarts > for one year, based on the following quote from PoA: "Harry, Ron and > Hermione had already had two Defense Against the Dark Arts teachers, > both of whom had only lasted one year" (Chapter 5 - UK ed., p. 60, US > ed., p. 75). But it's possible that Quirrell taught a different > subject before he took that fateful trip to Albania. I think the > Movie That Must Not Be Named adds to the confusion when Percy tells > Harry that "Snape's been after Quirrell's job *for years*." > > ~Phyllis >From Harry, Ron and Hermoinies point of view they only had Quirrel for a year. We see things from Harrys point of view and from Harrys point of view he's never had the same DADA teacher for more than one year. It is possible that some of the older students may have had the same DADA teacher for more than one year. This means that Quirrell could have taught DADA for more than a year but Harry just doesn't think of it like that because the previous years were before Harry attened Howarts. Michelle From crussell at arkansas.net Tue Sep 10 19:52:14 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 19:52:14 -0000 Subject: Betrayal or Jealousy? Hagrid's flying In-Reply-To: <006001c25867$a53e6240$6501a8c0@buckeyecablesystem.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43865 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Denise Jurski" wrote: > I think as Bugaloo says, there may have been some aspect of that in the > scene quoted, but I think the betrayal was really a mask to cover his > jealousy. It's far more acceptable, even to ourselves, to say we're mad > because a friend betrayed us, than because he got something, again, that he > wanted. > > > Denise This is exactly how I see it. I think the sense of betrayal is present but IMO, perhaps more on the part of Harry. When Harry explains the situation regarding the goblet to Hermione-she accepts his explanation completely. Up to this point, Harry has had complete confidence in his friendship with Ron. Do not get me wrong-I am not saying that Harry shares no fault in this situation. Both he and Ron are having a hard time seeing things from each others point of view. Being blind to the circumstances that have spawned another person's feelings is typical of children. Hermione maintains her relationships with both Harry and Ron-without taking sides-a tough position. Neither Harry or Ron are willing to budge an inch-even with Hermione's constant attempts to get them to talk to one another. Only after the first task is completed, does Ron understand the danger Harry was facing. IMO, at this point, both Ron and Harry demonstrate a growing maturity-the one by apologizing and the other for realizing an apology was not needed. At the end of Book 4, Harry demonstrates a further understanding of Ron's feelings by telling his brothers to buy him new dress robes-making sure they do not let him know they are from him. IMO, this subplot concerning Harry's and Ron's relationship is JKR's way of letting us know that Harry, Ron and Hermione are growing up-and that deeper and darker trials are on the way. bugaloo37 From jtdogberry at hotmail.com Tue Sep 10 20:10:50 2002 From: jtdogberry at hotmail.com (jtdogberry) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 20:10:50 -0000 Subject: Neville, the sorting hat, and N.I.N.E In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43866 > Carol Bainbridge decided to type: > > Something struck me about the sorting hat's response to Neville. > It's not > > a big line, but I wonder about its meaning now: > > > > "The hat took a long time to decide with Neville." > > > > Fyre Wood (ME!) Replies.. > > I think that the sorting hat looks deeply into oneself and then > decides where to place it based on two things. The first is the > personality characteristics that qualify to be placed in one of the > four houses. We know what those are (bravery, ambition, loyalty, or > intelligence). > > However, what if perhaps the sorting hat also grants the desires of > not only house placement, but just desires in general. Harry pretty > much just chose his house... ("...not Slytherin. Not Slytherin.") and > perhaps Neville did the same. > Dogberry writes (a bit too eagerly after having had no acccess to the internet for eight weeks!!) Yay!!! NEVILLE!!!!!!! Ahem, sorry. Yep, I agree with you guys there, I think the sorting hat sees a lot more then what we give it credit for. In Neville's case, it took along time because he isn't so straight foward. My own opinion is that he is hiding something. Most likly, it something to do with the attack although it could be something else, answers to the usual address! The sorting hat could have been trying to prise that infomation from him and why he was hiding it. I think it could also see someones past and judge them that way. We will have to see. > ____________________ > > Carol Bainbridge continued with: > > > Every time I read that line, I just assumed that because Neville > was such a > > klutz -- and not terribly magical -- the hat had a tough time > figuring out > > where he belonged. Now I have to wonder, especially with, but not > > exclusively because of, the possibility that Neville will be > working for > > Voldemort under the imperious charm. > > Fyre Wood (ME!) replies... YAY! > > I agree with you here completely. I at first thought that it was > because he was nearly a squib that it took so darn long. > > I sincerely doubt that Neville is going to turn evil. I'm proud to be > a member of "N.I.N.E" which stands for "Neville Is Not Evil." ( > of this post.) Neville, like I posted earlier, will do something > great. JKR has written too many times about the screw ups of > Longbottom who is NOT a member of this group and tries to over analyse > Dogberry (ME!) Er, I'm not sure why Neville would be under the imperious curse, maybe I missed that conversation when I was away, I havn't caught up yet, but could someone explain that one to me. But I will sign upto N.I.N.E. Harry has the dream of Pettigrew resembling Neville, before he found out he was a traitor. This mean that if Harry does have some insight to the future, Neville will give up his life for his friends. (Please don't die Neville!) The screw ups is an intresting point beacause all the way throught out GOF, Nevilles' work in class is refered too i.e only person to get any charms work, the transfiguration class etc, so I think something is going to happen there. I personally think Neville is afraid of what he can do and is trying to find ways to lessening his powers but not everyone is convinced, namely Snape. Just some more random notes, I think Neville knew full well who "Moody" was but under peer pressure kept silent beacause he had no proof, however for this to be true, he would have had to been there at the attack. I would like to know how he reacted at the end of term beacause he is not mention again after the Pensive. TTFN Dogberry who 8 weeks ago, didn't relise just how addictive the board is. From MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Sep 10 18:31:04 2002 From: MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM (mitchbailey82) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 18:31:04 -0000 Subject: Why Can't Hagrid Be Readmitted to Hogwarts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43867 "Katey wrote:" I would imagine that England is > more like Germany than the US. America is one of the few countries > where you can mess around until your 20s, sometimes even 30s, and > still be successful. > I think attitudes toward Hagrid are just another aspect of English > society put into the WW. > > ~Katey > PS-just to make sure people understand, I'm not bad-mouthing Germany > or England. I've been to both places before and they're absolutely > wonderful. That's just a bad aspect of their countries, as the US > and all other countries have their bad aspects. =) In England and the whole of the UK you have compulsory schooling from the age 4 to the age of 16 - when you do your GCSE's (its some other exam in Scotland though - I think the called Scotish higher exams or something) If you fail these exams you rarely go back to the secondary/ senior school that you have been through - generally you have to go to a college or night school (not 6th form because usually you have to have certain good results to be amitted). It's not that people don't have the chance to get the exams when their older it's that they don't go to the secondary school with all the 16 and unders. However as JRK states (in an interview I think) that there are no wizard universities it is resonable to assume that there are no colleges so how someone who is older gets to retake the exams in latter life I don't know - maybee kwikee -spell courses (cos) like Filch was taking aren't only for squibs... Michelle From bdmorrp at budget.state.ny.us Tue Sep 10 21:03:25 2002 From: bdmorrp at budget.state.ny.us (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 21:03:25 -0000 Subject: Changes in UK Adult Version of PoA Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43868 At the risk of sending bboy_mn off the cliff he's tottering at the edge of, I've finished reading my recently purchased UK adult edition paperback of PoA and have noticed two changes that aren't reflected on the Lexicon's page that notes differences between the (presumably first edition hardback) US and UK editions. The first is when the Knight Bus arrives to rescue Harry, the US edition says "Harry rummaged once more in his trunk, extracted his money bag, and shoved some *gold* into Stan's hand" (Ch. 3, p. 35). This had always struck me as a possible error, since Stan has just told Harry that the cost of the ride is between 11 and 15 Sickles (depending on whether you want hot chocolate, a water bottle and/or a toothbrush), and Sickles are silver, not gold. Earlier in the same chapter, it says "There was a little wizard *gold* in the money bag at the bottom of his trunk..." (p. 32), so I thought it was possible that perhaps Harry only had gold Galleons left in his bag, but then why would he give Stan more than one Galleon (since it says Harry gave Stan *some* gold)? In the UK adult edition paperback, this is corrected to say "Harry rummaged once more in his trunk, extracted his money bag and shoved some *silver* into Stan's hand" (Ch. 3, p. 32). The earlier reference to "wizard gold" is unchanged, however, but could certainly be read as a reference to "wizard money," not necessarily that it's all gold. The second is that on the Lexicon differences page, it's noted that the original UK edition had Harry reading A History of Magic by *Adalbert Waffling* while both my US and new UK editions say *Bathilda Bagshot* (Ch. 1, UK p. 7, US p. 1). This is clearly a correction of an error, as in PS/SS it's noted that Adalbert Waffling is the author of Magical Theory and Bathilda Bagshot is the author of A History of Magic. There is a third change, but I believe folks are already aware of this one - when Harry receives Sirius' owl post in Ch. 22, Sirius writes (regarding purchasing the Firebolt): "I used your name but told them to take the gold from Gringotts vault number seven hundred and eleven - my own" (p. 315). The US edition leaves out the vault number: "I used your name but told them to take the gold from my own Gringotts vault" (p. 433). The Lexicon page stops at p. 74 of PoA, so I couldn't check this one out, but I've seen this brought up before so I believe it's not a new change. Why the US readers aren't privy to Sirius' vault number is a mystery to me... Perhaps Eloise or someone with a first edition UK paperback can tell us whether the change from "gold" to "silver" is a new change, or whether it was corrected earlier on. Also, just to repeat my caveat that I'm not doing a word-for-word comparison, just relaying changes that I noticed as I read the UK version. ~Phyllis From fyredriftwood at yahoo.com Tue Sep 10 21:37:09 2002 From: fyredriftwood at yahoo.com (Courtney Beth) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 21:37:09 -0000 Subject: Changes in UK Adult Version of PoA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43869 Phyllis, aka : erisedstraeh2002 kindly mentioned THIS in her last post: > > There is a third change, but I believe folks are already aware of > this one - when Harry receives Sirius' owl post in Ch. 22, Sirius > writes (regarding purchasing the Firebolt): "I used your name but > told them to take the gold from Gringotts vault number seven hundred > and eleven - my own" (p. 315 Fyre Wood (ME) replies: How odd is it that the vault of Sirius is number 711 and just two vaults down is number 713, the one holding the Philosopher's Stone? Perhaps the high security vaults are also used for Prisoners of Azkaban or convicted murderers? Or maybe it's just a random occurance? The world may never know. --Fyre Wood, who hopefully was the first to notice that =) From fyredriftwood at yahoo.com Wed Sep 11 00:24:00 2002 From: fyredriftwood at yahoo.com (Fyre Wood) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 00:24:00 -0000 Subject: Changes in UK Adult Version of PoA (part two) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43870 Fyre Wood Originally Wrote: (ME) > Phyllis, aka : erisedstraeh2002 kindly mentioned THIS in her last > post: > > > > There is a third change, but I believe folks are already aware of > > this one - when Harry receives Sirius' owl post in Ch. 22, Sirius > > writes (regarding purchasing the Firebolt): "I used your name but > > told them to take the gold from Gringotts vault number seven > hundred > > and eleven - my own" (p. 315 > > > Fyre Wood (ME) replies: > > How odd is it that the vault of Sirius is number 711 and just two > vaults down is number 713, the one holding the Philosopher's Stone? > Perhaps the high security vaults are also used for Prisoners of > Azkaban or convicted murderers? Or maybe it's just a random occurance? > > Fyre Wood continues where she left off: I just had a thought I wanted to clear up. Disregard that first post because perhaps it's just the random placement of the vaults. Maybe 713 is down in the basement while 711 is up a floor and is the last valt there. I didn't think of this until after I signed off. FYI: I also don't know why my *real name* is starting to show up on posts. Please call me "Fyre Wood" and not "Courtney Beth." I like to use my alias on the internet. =) I think the Yahoo!Profiles are starting to get screwy again. --Fyre Wood, who doesn't want to be called Courtney Beth because Voldy likes name puns better than real girls' names. From rvotaw at i-55.com Wed Sep 11 00:31:40 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 19:31:40 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wand mix up/ House Elf/ Sirius' vault References: Message-ID: <011701c2592a$b66b9ec0$9aa2cdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 43871 Candlewick writes: > Here's my theory: Ron's new wand's unicorn hair core > is a hair from *the same unicorn* as Cedric Diggory's. > And I don't remember reading anywhere in GoF that > Harry brought Cedric's wand back when he brought > Cedric's body back. So perhaps now Cedric's wand is > in the possession of LV or a DE, and it will have the > same connection to Ron's wand as Harry's and LV's > wands have with their shared phoenix feather cores. > Is there something in cannon about Cedric's wand after > he dies? Ooh, I like this, I really like this! It would make perfect sense. Now, it is possible, as someone (forgot who, sorry) mentioned earlier that Cedric was tightly gripping the wand at the point of death and it went with him. However, it's not mentioned one way or another. Harry obviously was in no condition to notice Cedric's wand, he didn't even see him die. He was on the ground retching at the time, poor kid. I can't recall if there's canon to suggest that one simply falls limp from an AK or goes rigid. Still, I have this other theory that in JKR's writing style she brings up things from time to time to prepare for future things. Such as the phoenix makes a brief appearance bursting into flames while Harry's waiting in Dumbledore's office in CoS. The phoenix then has a major part in the end of that book, and another major part (especially his song) in GoF. On the same token, the priora incantatum is slightly introduced by Amos Diggory when he draws the last spell from Harry's wand to find the dark mark after the Quidditch cup. Then the priora incantatum plays a big (really big) part in the graveyard scene. So it could come up again. And there's the fact that JKR makes a point of letting us know the wand cores of the four champions (though Harry's we already knew anyway). I've got some other comments regarding those wands in the graveyard scene, but I'll start a new post for that I think. This one's getting long and I'm not yet finished. Smellee writes: > in previous post (#43760) that Dumbledore is a house elf. Being as > that caught me completely by suprise and that I love twists, I must > support such theory. The only person in the whole series who has been > invisible without the aid of an invisibility cloak is Dumbledore. > Even MoodyCrouch had one. So maybe Dumbledore is the only wizard who > can become invisible. The mark of a good house elf is that you never > know that they are there. Maybe house elfs can become invisible so > they can do their chores unobtrusively. Probably a silly theory, but > fun. Plus, it explains why he sees socks in the mirror. :) Well, my one problem (or at least the biggest one) with this theory is that we don't *really* know that Dumbledore saw socks in the mirror. That's what he told Harry. I must say if someone asked me what I saw in the mirror I doubt I'd really tell them. Another issue is, how did Dumbledore know what Harry and Ron saw? I suppose he could've been guessing, it's not hard to pin those two down. Anyway, back to the house elf thing. It would explain a lot, first of all as to why house elves get so much "coverage" in the books. I get a little tired of them in GoF. But if some big revelation is coming up that involves house elves it would make sense. Second, Dobby clearly must have apparated, and as Hermione constantly reminds anyone who cares to listen, you can't apparate from Hogwarts. But since that apparently doesn't apply to house elves, it would allow Dumbledore to get around easier. He does pop around a bit. Fyre Wood replies: > How odd is it that the vault of Sirius is number 711 and just two > vaults down is number 713, the one holding the Philosopher's Stone? > Perhaps the high security vaults are also used for Prisoners of > Azkaban or convicted murderers? Or maybe it's just a random occurance? I've been pondering that ever since I learned the vault number of Sirius Black. Seeing as my stupid (sorry!) Scholastic edition doesn't say. However, technically speaking vaults 711 and 713 could be beside each other, not two vaults down. If odd numbered vaults are on one side and even numbered on the other. Interesting. Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Wed Sep 11 01:11:23 2002 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 18:11:23 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hagrid , magic and dragons (was Why can't Hagrid do magic?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6583874681.20020910181123@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43872 Tuesday, September 10, 2002, 10:32:03 AM, Mark D. wrote: MD> My niece loved Norbert and hated the his part was so reduced in the MD> movie. She wonders if Norbert will reunite with Hagrid for the great MD> battle against Valdemort. Would it be stealing too much from MD> Dragonriders to show Hagrid and Norbert racing into battle together? Does anyone besides me think that Voldemort's promise to form "an army of creatures whom all fear" is an indication that Hagrid will help the side of light assemble an army of fearful beasts of their own? (Including probably Norbert, Aragog, Fluffy, and a few Blast-Ended Skrewts?) -- Dave From rvotaw at i-55.com Wed Sep 11 01:10:48 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 20:10:48 -0500 Subject: Harry's wands in the graveyard/ other ponderings Message-ID: <015a01c25930$11216a20$9aa2cdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 43873 Okay, first things first. When the topic of who may have Cedric's wand came up, I immediately went and reread the entire graveyard scene for the umpteenth time. Anyway, let's get this out of the way first. It may be a simple error in wording, but how exactly did Harry's wand get from his hand into his robes? Here we go (all quotes are from Scholastic paperback edition): Harry's hand had closed on Cedric's wrist; one tombstone stood between him and Voldemort, but Cedric was too heavy to carry, and the cup was out of reach-- "Accio!" Harry yelled, pointing his wand at the Triwizard Cup. It flew into the air and soared with him. It flew into the air and soared toward him. Harry caught it by the handle-- Okay, let me stop and evaulate here. Harry is clutching Cedric's wrist in one hand. In the other hand he has his wand, which he points at the cup. Then he grabs the cup. In which hand? I'm assuming the one with the wand. You know, kind of grabs it with three fingers, still holding the wand with two? I don't see how he'd have had time to get the wand back in his robes and then getting his hand up in time to grab the cup. However, now we move on back to Hogwarts: To hold himself steady, he tightened his hold on the two things he was still clutching: the smooth, cold handle of the Triwizard Cup and Cedric's body. He felt as though he would slide away into the blackness gathering at the edges of his brain if he let go of either of them. Okay, so now he's only holding two things. Cedric, and the cup. Then: Harry let go of the cup, but he clutched Cedric to him even more tightly. He raised his free hand and seized Dumbledore's wrist, while Dumbledore's face swam in and out of focus. Again, it's repeated. All he's holding is the cup and Cedric. So how does the wand get from his hand to his pocket/robes/wherever? The next time Harry's wand is mentioned is in Moody's office when he thinks to himself he'll never reach it in time, then starts to reach for it as Dumbledore Stupefies Moody/Crouch. Things like that bother me, though I'm sure its just an error. Or an omission. Now, as I was rereading the conversation between Moody/Crouch and Harry is Moody/Crouch's office, I noticed something that may or may not be worth anything: "The Dark Lord didn't manage to kill you, Potter, and he *so* wanted to," whispered Moody. "Imagine how he will reward me when he finds I have done it for him. I gave you to him--the thing he needed above all to regenerate--and then I killed you for him. I will be honored beyond all other Death Eaters. I will be his dearest, his closest supporter . . . closer than a son . . .." Closer than a son? Hmm, interesting wording. First of all, let me say that yes, it could just be an expression. However, isn't the common expression "closer than a brother?" At least around here it is. Still, it could be just an expression, or it could be something more. The slightest of hints . . . could the dark lord have a son??? Richelle ******************************************************************** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring ******************************************************************** [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From the.gremlin at verizon.net Tue Sep 10 22:16:25 2002 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (ats_fhc3) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 22:16:25 -0000 Subject: Hogwart's Express Space Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43874 Okay, I'm positive that magical space vs. real space was debated before, BUT as I was driving about aimlessly at work last night, I was wondering if anybody had anything to offer to my question. Okay, if Harry and Co. need to go through the wall to get to Platform 9 3/4, wouldn't that mean that Hogwart's Express has its own magical space? And, if it does, how is it, then, that Harry and Ron were able to take a car (enchanted, but a Muggle car, nonetheless) parked in a non-magical parking lot, make it invisible and fly it upward, spot Hogwart's Express pulling out of the train station, and follow it from London? Is there some dimension or invisible line that they crossed, to get to magical space? You are now welcome to tie your brains in knots, because I am without canon until October. -Acire, who wonders if anybody else has trouble associating 'Snape' with 'wizard', and who also must mention Snape in every post. From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 10 23:26:55 2002 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 16:26:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] A "Harey" Problem, WAS: Re: Newer UK Edition of CoS Has Three Changes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020910232655.91116.qmail@web20007.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43875 --- jkusalavagemd wrote: > I fear that this is a case of misplaced sensitivity > on the part of > the American Editors. One can visualize a harelip > without having any > desire to ridicule or persecute people with cleft > palates. Why > censor this? Rather than rob the language of any > umpleasant images > out of misguided paternalism (or maternalism-- > musn't offend any > gender!) why not look at it as an opportunity for > parents to explain > what it is in a sensisitve manner, so that when the > child reader > actually encounters someone with the defect, they > will be prepared to > react without shock or surprise? > > Haggridd > I have the American version and it says harelip. Was it changed in a later edition? Mine says it was printed in paperback by Scholastic in September of 2000. I thought it was the newer UK version that said hairy chin? Oh well, guess I haven't been keeping up with the discussion that well. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________________________ Yahoo! - We Remember 9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost http://dir.remember.yahoo.com/tribute From Victim_of_Atlantis at hotmail.com Wed Sep 11 01:29:28 2002 From: Victim_of_Atlantis at hotmail.com (Lost Feyth) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 21:29:28 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dementors giving life back?! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43876 Fyre Wood Writes: >>Maybe that is why the dementors are allies with Voldy and his crew of >>Death Eaters. If they can take life away with a kiss, why not just >>give it back with yet another kiss? And if one soul can be returned, >>why not give one person two souls to make them twice as strong. >>Mysmacek might just be onto something here. Sweet. >>--Fyre Wood, who now runs late to class... Interesting, but wouldn't that be like putting two sepparate people into one body? Think of the conflict in opinion and action. One person may want to kill Harry, while the other wants to go and pig out on food. Just an example, and a bad one at that. ^_~ Although I do enjoy the thought of a Dementor giving back the soul, but what reason besides their "loyalty" to Voldemort would they have for giving the soul back? (I really don't think that the Dementors are all that loyal to Voldemort. They just want a free meal, and IMHO there will come a time when Voldemort won't be able to provide that free meal any more, and he'll be impailed upon his own sword.) -Lost Feyth _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From niemuthervin at worldnet.att.net Wed Sep 11 01:39:41 2002 From: niemuthervin at worldnet.att.net (animagi_raven) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 01:39:41 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Potter=92s_Fidelius/Sirius_Imprisonment_caused_by_Evil!Fudge?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43877 Barb's message #43752 from Fri Sep 6, 2002 11:41 am: erisedstraeh2002 first: >> I'm wondering if JKR initially planned to have someone other than >> Sirius be the original secret-keeper for the Potters (Lupin, >> perhaps?). This would explain the problems with the references to >> the bike in PS/SS, and would also explain why Dumbledore shows no >> surprise when Hagrid tells him in PS/SS that he borrowed the bike >> from Sirius (at this point, Dumbledore still thinks Sirius was the >> Potters' secret-keeper, so wouldn't he have had been startled that >> Hagrid used a betrayer's bike to transport Harry to Privet Dr.?). Barb Second: >As you noted, Dumbledore didn't bat an eye at Hagrid's mention of >Sirius. If JKR had had the Secret Keeper concept in mind at the >beginning of the series--which I believe she came up with later-- >Dumbledore SHOULD have been alarmed about Hagrid mentioning him. >I believe you've hit on something here. Animagi_Raven apparates in shouts "Dark Mark" and starts blasting stun spells around at random. He manages to stun two garden gnomes, a handful of flobberworms, and one cabbage that smells like an elderly English woman. He then dusts himself off and goes on to state: There could be two other reasons for Dumbledore's lack of reaction to hearing Sirius's name: 1) Dumbledore may not have known at that time who the secret keeper was and was not going to jump to a conclusion. Remember, Sirius and Dumbledore were both offering to be secret keeper and the Potters could have gone with Lupin or Peter (not smart but there you are). Maybe Dumbledore was not sure who they had chosen. The confrontation between Peter and Sirius may not have taken place by the time he met Hagrid or he may not have heard about it yet, being away from Hogworts. The confrontation may been what made everyone (including Dumbledore) think it was Sirius. 2) Dumbledore may not have known that a Fidelius Charm had been cast yet. Remember, it was supposed to be secret and to that end the fewer people that knew details the better. Dumbledore was obviously monitoring them because of the speed with which Hagrid reached the house ? I just realized that Sirius must have been monitoring the Potters, also apparently independent of Dumbledore. So how could Dumbledore not know that the spell had been cast? I looked for examples of how a Fidelius could work based on other spells and the one that IMO is the most similar is the spell that causes Hogworts to be unplottable and uninteresting to Muggles. This spell is selective since Muggles will ignore Hogworts, but does not seem to affect non-Muggles. Could a similar spell hide the Potters from just about everyone? Close friends could be excluded and Sirius and Dumbledore could maintain their surveillance of the Potters and may not have even known that the spell had been cast. On a related note for Sirius: This probably has been discussed before but not in a while so maybe some of the new people will be interested. I looked through the archives and found vague references last November but not this complete thought: When Sirius was captured he probably had a wand. This is a good bet since he and Peter were facing off. Sirius claims that he was not given a trial before being sent to Azkaban. He was definitely not defending his innocence but there was another piece of evidence that could have helped him *if there had been a trial* - his wand. At the QWC in GoF, Amos Diggory replays the spells cast by a wand with Priori Incantatum. In PoA, Sirius says that Peter cast the spell that blew up the street. Therefore the spell would have been on Peter's wand and not on Sirius's wand. If a person in the MoM wanted Sirius locked away (cough*Fudge*cough) and knew that the wand would exonerate him, then there would be no point to a trial. Is this a point for Ever-So-Evil!Fudge as opposed to just Apathetic!Fudge? Because if Sirius could be proved innocent that would leave the Potter murders still under investigation. But if Fudge could be shown to have been the one that caught the Potter's murderer (all right, accessory to murder to be precise) that would help his prestige. Something helped his prestige ? he became Minister, after all. Animagi_Raven ? who has not been as afraid to apparate since he left his brain behind that time. "What person in your life would you like to have replaced with a CG (computer generated) character? It would involve you talking into blank air until the character was dubbed in by the computer." Mysteriously, both people that I posed this question to voted for *me*. From smiller at dslextreme.com Wed Sep 11 01:41:47 2002 From: smiller at dslextreme.com (Susan Miller) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 01:41:47 -0000 Subject: Quirrell's Tenure (WAS: Quirrell) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43878 I started this mess when I wrote: > My understanding was that Quirrel was the DADA teacher, and > presumably a good one, for some years until he decided to go on > sabbatical for some practical experience - with the results we all > know. Then after he came back as Quirrelmort, we don't know how many > years prior to Harry's introduction that he taught at Hogwarts. and Eloise responded: > This is a thorny one. At least, the evidence is rather > contradictory. The way Hagrid speaks about Quirrell, it does sound > as if he'd been teaching at Hogwarts, went off in sabbatical and > came back. But Hagrid also says that Lockhart was the only > applicant for the post as no one had lasted long for a while and > the job was thought to be jinxed. Then Phyllis added: > > I was always under the impression that Quirrell was only at Hogwarts > for one year, based on the following quote from PoA: "Harry, Ron and > Hermione had already had two Defense Against the Dark Arts teachers, > both of whom had only lasted one year" (Chapter 5 - UK ed., p. 60, US > ed., p. 75). I agree with the others who have responded to this thread by pointing out that the quote may refer to the "Harry years". And I think that Hagrid's comment about Lockhart being the only applicant just means that the ww is temporarily skittish about it. Whatever "a while" means in Hagrid's speech. As was pointed out by another poster, Quirrelmort with the bee in his bonnet didn't happen until after the episode at Gringotts. But I do think that V-mort was nearby at Hogwarts previous, and that Quirrel taught at least one year in that condition, because neither Hagrid nor Percy call him "the new DADA teacher" or "just returned", which I think it would be typical to mention if he were. And furthermore, Dumbledore makes it a habit to recognize new staff at the opening feast speech. Also, how would Hagrid know that Q was afraid of his students if there weren't at least one term where he had students? I think we can conclude that Harry's first year is not Q's first year post-sabbatical. Now, to Quirrel's defense. While I don't have canon quotes to back it up, I think that Quirrel must have been a very good teacher. The fact that he wanted to expand his skills and knowledge, when he of all people knew that it would be at great personal risk, indicates that he cared deeply about his subject. In fact, I don't recall anyone saying anything derogatory about his teaching, even after he came back. Sure, he was afraid of everything, but given his subject, a little humility might be a good thing. We have Lockhart as the example of hubris. Granted, the main reason was to deflect suspicion from himself, but demonstrating respect for the dark arts might well get the attention of the students. We just don't have much evidence on how his classes were run to come to a conclusion, hence, I assume that his skills and passion did not dissipate when he went corrupt. Oh, yeah, he was out to destroy the world in the name of the dark master, but that's only incidental to my point. Comments? ~ Constance Vigilance From julie.k.stahlhut at alum.mit.edu Wed Sep 11 01:43:40 2002 From: julie.k.stahlhut at alum.mit.edu (Julie Stahlhut) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 01:43:40 -0000 Subject: Ravenclaw, etc. (was: Slytherin Amigos) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43879 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "emma_look_alike" wrote: > Do Malfoy and the Slytherins have friends in other houses? Does ANY > in depth other-house relationships go on inside Hogwarts?.... As someone who would have most fervently begged the Sorting Hat to put me into Ravenclaw :-), I'll go a step further and wonder why Ravenclaw has been the least developed house in the whole tale so far. Much of the conflict, of course, has been Gryffindor v. Slytherin, but we've at least met a smattering of Hufflepuffs along the way; even before Cedric became central to the plot of GoF, the Gryffindors and Hufflepuffs seemed to share a lot of classes. We don't see much of the Ravenclaws; some, like Penelope Clearwater, Cho Chang, and Roger Davies, get an occasional mention, but we really don't know anything about them, not even Cho, nor Parvati's sister Padma. I'd also love to see a rogue Slytherin character with a conscience -- maybe a character who's ambitious and enough of a social climber to live there, but who isn't a complete snob, a bully, or otherwise an all-around creep. Wonder if either of these developments will happen along the way? Julie (Sometimes herself; sometimes starbug_56) From Malady579 at hotmail.com Wed Sep 11 03:54:05 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 03:54:05 -0000 Subject: Potterland's secret code Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43880 Please take this with a grain of salt...but it is fun to think about. While I was sitting here tonight trying to do anything but watch American TV, I for some reason fell upon this odd discovery. It may be, and probably most definitely is, an odd coincidence, but I found it a bit interesting. I was wondering what ya?ll thought. What if JKR put a code into her names to help us distinguish whether the characters were good or evil. Like the sort of codes people search for in the Bible to try and say God is quite clever and mysterious. Well, I think I have found a code to tell who is evil in Potterland. Intrigued? Ok then. The key to the secret code is that the name that distinguishes a character from all the other characters must have only three vowels. [no ?y? does not count as a vowel in this code] [To assist with my ?logic? ;) on this code, I distinguish the last name before the first name, like in sports. It will be explained why as we go on.] First example: Ok who is the one character that all in this yahoo group agree is truly a bad, evil character? Voldemort (a) It is the only name we are given for his represented evil self. (b) It has three vowels. [Evil] Ok then, easy so far. Second example: Bad guy from PS/SS? Quirrell (a) Only name we are given for him (b) Three vowels [Evil] Assumed Bad Guy by The Three in PS/SS? (Severus) Snape (a) only Snape we know of (b) two vowels [Not evil] (Ignoring the screams of all those Snape haters out there) Third example: Bad guy from CoS? Lucius (Malfoy) (a) must distinguish him from his son and wife, so use first name (b) three vowels [Evil] Assumed Bad Guy by school in CoS? Harry (Potter) (a) distinguish from parents, so use first name (b) one vowel {Not evil] Fourth example: True Bad Guy from PoA? (Peter) Pettigrew (a) only Pettigrew we know (b) three vowels [Evil] Assumed Bad Guy by all WW in PoA? (Sirius) Black (a) only Black we know (b) only one vowel [Not evil] (Ignoring all those Black haters out there) Fifth Example: Bad Guy in GoF? (Bartemius Crouch) Junior (a) I used the Junior since son and father have the same name (b) And thus three vowels [Evil] (my the code is tricky) Assuming ya?ll are seeing the pattern, I want to run down a list to see who else might we see as evil or good. (teehee) Weasleys (we do have nine so I will use first names) Arthur: 2 Molly: 1 Bill: 1 Charlie: 3 [Evil] (ahhhhh, no not Charlie) Percy: 1 Fred: 1 George: 3 [Evil] (seems the twins are distinguishable) Ron: 1, or even if you wish, Ronald: 2 Ginny: 1 Students: (Hermione) Granger: 2 Draco (Malfoy): 2 (hmm, much be some good in him then) Neville (Longbottum): 3 [Evil] (no crying N.I.N.E. members) Parvati (Patil): 3 [Evil] Padme (Patil): 2 (once again twins divided) (Pansy) Parkinson: 3 [Evil] {I know there are more but I did not want to spell out each character. On to?) Professors: Albus (Dumbledore): 2 McGonagall: 3 [Evil] (hmmmmm?) Hagrid: 2 Flitwick: 2 Lockhart: 2 (well he was an idiot not evil) Lupin: 2 (though as, werewolf: 3 [Evil] ) Trelawney: 3 [Evil] (Alastor) Moody: 2 Other notables: Fudge: 2 (Bartemius Crouch) Senior: 3 [Evil] Bagman: 2 Skeeter: 3 [Evil] And the evil of evils assumed? Deadeaters: (Igor) Karkaroff: 3 [Evil] (Evan) Rosier: 3 [Evil] Lestrange (both really): 3 [Evil] Macnair: 3 [Evil] Mulciber: 3 [Evil] (Antonion) Dolohov: 3 [Evil] [I left out Crabbe, Nott, and Goyle since we are yet able to distinguish them from the kids] The Deadeaters list continues to work with Barty Jr., Pettigrew, and even Snape since he is now good. So there it is. The Potterland code of who is evil/good is broken. See wasn?t that so easy. ;) It is all a bit odd though. I found it greatly amusing. Melody who really needs a new hobby. From purple_801999 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 11 04:19:59 2002 From: purple_801999 at yahoo.com (purple_801999) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 04:19:59 -0000 Subject: Sirius's Vault (Was Re: Changes in UK Adult Version of PoA) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43881 Phyllis wrote- > There is a third change, but I believe folks are already aware of > this one - when Harry receives Sirius' owl post in Ch. 22, Sirius > writes (regarding purchasing the Firebolt): "I used your name but > told them to take the gold from Gringotts vault number seven hundred > and eleven - my own" (p. 315). The US edition leaves out the vault > number: "I used your name but told them to take the gold from my own > Gringotts vault" (p. 433). The Lexicon page stops at p. 74 of PoA, > so I couldn't check this one out, but I've seen this brought up > before so I believe it's not a new change. Why the US readers aren't > privy to Sirius' vault number is a mystery to me... I just wanted to get this theory out while the opportunity presented itself. I've always assumed that Sirius had a second, secret vault that he could access. It makes sense if he was going to go into hiding when the Potters did to have an unknown and untraceable account just in case some of Voldy's spies had their eyes on the banks. But you know what happens when you assume. You make an ass out of you and who? -Olivia Grey From fyredriftwood at yahoo.com Wed Sep 11 04:54:13 2002 From: fyredriftwood at yahoo.com (Fyre Wood) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 04:54:13 -0000 Subject: Potterland's secret code In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43882 Melody... who had a lot of free time, found something interesting: > Please take this with a grain of salt...but it is fun to think about. > > While I was sitting here tonight trying to do anything but watch > American TV, I for some reason fell upon this odd discovery. It may > be, and probably most definitely is, an odd coincidence, but I found > it a bit interesting. I was wondering what ya?ll thought. > > What if JKR put a code into her names to help us distinguish whether > the characters were good or evil. Like the sort of codes people > search for in the Bible to try and say God is quite clever and > mysterious. Well, I think I have found a code to tell who is evil in > Potterland. > > Intrigued? Ok then. > > The key to the secret code is that the name that distinguishes a > character from all the other characters must have only three vowels. > > [no ?y? does not count as a vowel in this code] > > [To assist with my ?logic? ;) on this code, I distinguish the last > name before the first name, like in sports. It will be explained why > as we go on.] > > First example: > Ok who is the one character that all in this yahoo group agree is > truly a bad, evil character? Voldemort > (a) It is the only name we are given for his represented evil self. > (b) It has three vowels. [Evil] > > > > Assuming ya?ll are seeing the pattern, I want to run down a list to > see who else might we see as evil or good. (teehee) > > Students: > (Hermione) Granger: 2 > Draco (Malfoy): 2 (hmm, much be some good in him then) > Neville (Longbottom): 3 [Evil] (no crying N.I.N.E. members) > Parvati (Patil): 3 [Evil] > Padme (Patil): 2 (once again twins divided) > (Pansy) Parkinson: 3 [Evil] > {I know there are more but I did not want to spell out each character. > On to?) > Fyre Wood Replies: I think you're on to something, but as a loyal member of N.I.N.E (hehe) I must doubt that Neville is evil. I do agree with you that Pansy Parkinson is evil, because she IS evil, and have always thought she was. As a loyal Draco Malfoy fangirl, I've always considered Draco to be in the same boat as Snape. Like Snape, Draco does what is best for him... whether that be being evil, or doing something good .... but it has to be for HIS OWN benefit. Very interesting theory. Would you mind if I place that on my website with giving you proper credit? --Fyre Wood, who now cries because her N.I.N.E theory may be flawed and that Draco is going to become good. =`( From fyredriftwood at yahoo.com Wed Sep 11 05:03:54 2002 From: fyredriftwood at yahoo.com (Fyre Wood) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 05:03:54 -0000 Subject: Slytherin Friends, House Combining, and other random thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43883 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Julie Stahlhut" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "emma_look_alike" > wrote: > > Do Malfoy and the Slytherins have friends in other houses? > Does ANY > > in depth other-house relationships go on inside Hogwarts?.... > > Fyre Wood replies (Me, people.. I'm replying here!) It seems to me that most of the friendships at Hogwarts are within the students' own houses. However, the Patil sisters may be the exception because they are related. As I posted on my website, Hidden Desire (http://www.angelfire.com/ca7/dracolovesharry/huffclaw.html) ... direct link to the case..., the houses could almost be combined into two houses--just Gryffindor and Slytherin. The Hufflepuffs are the less brave versions of Gryffindors, while the Ravenclaws could be separated two ways: 1. Those who wish to use their intelligence for good would go into Gryffindor. 2. Those who would become evil masterminds would go into Slytherin. (If Bill Gates were to have attended Hogwarts, he would be an example of this). This would then cause the population to be 60% Gryffindor and about 40% Slytherin. I don't know why the students don't mingle. Maybe it's house pride, or perhaps there isn't any place for them to go beside class, the dining hall, and the common rooms. The school system seems to have them stay pretty much with their own kind... seems as though they're promoting separation rather than unity. I've seemed to have gone off on a tangent. Sorry folks. --Fyre Wood, who now waits for someone to reply. From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Wed Sep 11 05:10:34 2002 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 05:10:34 -0000 Subject: Godric's Way (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43884 Godric's Way (To the tune of God Bless the USA) Hear the original at: http://www.foxlink.net/~bobnbren/USA.html THE SCENE: Before Gryffindor Towers. Gryffindor alumni and students gather on a solemn occasion DUMBLEDORE With great sorrow we think of those gone All those robbed of their lives And of all the families Who of loved ones were deprived McGONAGALL The Dark Lord slaughtered thousands To extend his harsh domains But the heirs of Gryffindor have vowed There's not one who died in vain! GINNY & NEVILLE We're proud we were sorted to Gryffindor For when his spirit's near The boggarts change to nothingness For there's nothing we now fear LUPIN & BLACK If we would save our liberty There's a price that must be paid That debt shall be redeemed by us! We follow Godric's Way! ARTHUR, MOLLY, BILL & CHARLIE In times of peace, our duty is To live and to let live But our enemy deploys a Curse That no one could forgive PERCY, FRED & GEORGE Our weapons are our valour And the courage of our friends This is not a fight we started But it's one that we shall end! HARRY, RON & HERMIONE As we face the dreadful catastrophe When we seem bereft of hope We'll find his sword within his hat And we'll show them how we'll cope. Then I'll/he'll tell each snake in its own tongue, "You'll not tread on us today!" The Phoenix song resounds in us! We follow Godric's Way! ALL We face a cruel and determined foe And his worshippers of Death But we shall be the means through which They will draw their final breath. For the Dark Lord shall not rise again! And his epitaph will say: "He fell before the brave at heart Who follow Godric's way!" - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From nplyon at yahoo.com Wed Sep 11 06:04:23 2002 From: nplyon at yahoo.com (Nicole L.) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 23:04:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: {FILK} Complicated Message-ID: <20020911060423.33061.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43885 (To the tune of "Complicated" by Avril Lavigne) Dedicated to Coriolan (Thanks for including my FILKs on your page!) The scene: Seething, Hermione stomps off after one of her post-Yule Ball fights with Ron and tears at her hair. Hermione (chanting): Hey Ron, what's the sitch? Hey Ron, Hey Ron, what's it gonna be? So what's the sitch? Hey Ron, Hey Ron, what's it gonna be? (Now singing) Time out, what's this all about? Why do you need to scream and shout Are you mad about my date with Krum? Why, how come? Did you want me just to sit And brood over you, you twit? While you and your date had loads of fun Well you've become Somebody else, you're just not yourself It's mean and it's rude, your bad attitude You're treatin' poor Krum like you think he's scum it seems Tell me Why do you have to go and make things so complicated? You see the way you're acting like a big giant jerk gets me frustrated So what's the deal You snarl and you jeer and you sneer And you act like I turned you down flat but you never even Thought to ask me, "Wanna be my date for the ball?" No no no You act like a stupid grouch Your face is a great big pout Your thoughts and your acts are so petty It's makin' me Want to punch you in the nose And stomp my foot on your toes You're far from impressin' anyone When you become Somebody else, you're just not yourself It's mean and it's rude, your bad attitude You're treatin' poor Krum like you think he's scum it seems Tell me Why do you have to go and make things so complicated? You see the way you're acting like a big giant jerk gets me frustrated So what's the deal You snarl and you jeer and you sneer And you act like I turned you down flat though you never even Thought to ask me, "Wanna be my date for the ball?" No no no Time out, what's this all about? Why do you need to scream and shout Are you mad about my date with Krum? Ron, you've become Somebody else, you're just not yourself It's mean and it's rude, your bad attitude You're treatin' poor Krum like you think he's scum it seems Tell me Why do you have to go and make things so complicated? You see the way you're acting like a big giant jerk gets me frustrated So what's the deal You snarl and you jeer and you sneer And you act like I turned you down flat though you never even Thought to ask me, "Wanna be my date for the ball?" No no Why do you have to go and make things so complicated? You see the way you're acting like a big giant jerk gets me frustrated So what's the deal You snarl and you jeer and you sneer And you act like I turned you down flat though you never even Thought to ask me, "Wanna be my date for the ball?" No no no Hermione lets out a scream of frustration and then hurries to bury herself in the oblivion of her homework. ~Nicole __________________________________________________ Yahoo! - We Remember 9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost http://dir.remember.yahoo.com/tribute From pen at pensnest.co.uk Wed Sep 11 07:44:05 2002 From: pen at pensnest.co.uk (Pen Robinson) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 08:44:05 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Can't Hagrid Be Readmitted to Hogwarts? (WAS: Why can't Hagrid do magic?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3F32270D-C55A-11D6-BED8-0030654DED6A@pensnest.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 43886 candlewick4 replied: > "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: > In the US, >> people go back to school at all ages - even into their nineties. >> Hagrid is probably in his mid-sixties (assuming he was 13 at the > time >> he was expelled, which was 50 years ago), and given a wizard's >> extended lifetime, he has plenty of years ahead in which to put a >> Hogwarts education to good use. Is this a cultural difference, >> perhaps - is it not as readily accepted in the UK to go back to >> school in later life as it is in the US? > candlewick4 replied: > Isn't Hogwarts the US equiv. of middle/high school? In the US, you > don't see 60-year-olds roaming the halls of the local high unless > they're teachers. Once you're over 16 and drop out of school, it is > my understanding that "night school" and GEDs are your best chance of > getting a high school diploma. Maybe Hagrid is going to "knight > school" (like the "knight bus", not to *be* a knight). > That's right. In the UK, it is common for people to go back to education of some kind after a period away from school. But they don't go to *school* to do it. I myself am taking an A-Level next summer, but that doesn't mean I can tootle off to the local comprehensive with my children and sit in classes with seventeen-year-olds. I could have studied at the nearby college of further education, but they didn't offer the kind of course I wanted, so I'm doing it by correspondence. However, colleges of further education are for people aged 16+, whether they come straight from school or have just started drawing their pensions. Universities are also willing to accept older students as undergraduates, and we have the Open University which is a nation-wide programme in which students study by correspondence and via television programmes, with summer courses to be attended in person. I think the use of the word 'school', so simple in British English, may cause confusion? There seem to be many different breeds of 'school' in the USA, up to and including university. Hogwarts covers students from 11 - 18. In Hagrid's case, the only options would seem to be (a) forego magical training, (b) do a correspondence course on the quiet, or (c) get some private tuition from the Hogwarts staff. We have canon evidence that the first two are possibilities, and it makes sense to me that (c) ought to be possible, now that Hagrid has been vindicated. But it's possible that he has little need to use personal magic, most of the time. Pen From kaityf at jorsm.com Wed Sep 11 04:13:56 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 23:13:56 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ravenclaw, etc. (was: Slytherin Amigos) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020910225933.021d3110@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> No: HPFGUIDX 43887 Julie wrote: >As someone who would have most fervently begged the Sorting >Hat to put me into Ravenclaw :-), I'll go a step further and wonder >why Ravenclaw has been the least developed house in the >whole tale so far. I wondered that too early on. Actually I had wondered about both Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw. I did read somewhere that JKR said, in response to a question on this very thing, we'd be seeing much more development of these two houses. Since JKR has had the complete story planned out in advance, I have to think that leaving HP and RC so undeveloped was intentional. Maybe she wants to show how as we grow we branch out. When we're little we stay mostly with our family, then with neighborhood friends, then school friends, gradually moving out in larger circles. Just a thought. Of course, maybe JKR just didn't find much to say about these 2 houses yet as they didn't add anything to plot development -- yet. Julie again: >I'd also love to see a rogue Slytherin character with a conscience >-- maybe a character who's ambitious and enough of a social >climber to live there, but who isn't a complete snob, a bully, or >otherwise an all-around creep. I wonder about this, though. The Slytherin are clearly a Machiavellian group and I get the impression that JKR must not be terribly fond of this philosophy. The only way I see a Slytherin character being anything other than a creep, snob, or bully is if that character sees that not being one is the means that will get them to their desired end. I actually don't think every Slytherin needs to be a creep, snob, or bully; I suppose one can have a conscience... sort of. It could make for an interesting conflict. Lot of people feel the end justifies the means and don't think twice about it. But what about a person who does believe that in most cases and in general, but finds him- or herself in a situation where the choosing the means to get to the desired end creates some kind of internal conflict. I could see that happening. It would fit in, too, with the theme of tough choices in the story. >Wonder if either of these developments will happen along the >way? Wish I knew where to find that interview with JKR I read. From what she said, we're definitely going to see more development of Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw. Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From jodel at aol.com Wed Sep 11 06:08:35 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 02:08:35 EDT Subject: Gringotts vaults (was;various) Message-ID: <111.182567fa.2ab037e3@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43888 In a message dated 9/10/02 6:07:05 PM, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com writes: << Fyre Wood replies: > How odd is it that the vault of Sirius is number 711 and just two > vaults down is number 713, the one holding the Philosopher's Stone? > Perhaps the high security vaults are also used for Prisoners of > Azkaban or convicted murderers? Or maybe it's just a random occurance? I've been pondering that ever since I learned the vault number of Sirius Black. Seeing as my stupid (sorry!) Scholastic edition doesn't say. However, technically speaking vaults 711 and 713 could be beside each other, not two vaults down. If odd numbered vaults are on one side and even numbered on the other. Interesting. Richelle >> Question; I don't have my copies of the books by me, but were we told what number is Harry's vault? As to the matter of vault 711 and 713; yeah that sounds like quite a coincidence, all right. The vaults were almost certainly assigned in the order that the clients opened accounts. The Black family (or Sirius himself) seem to have opened an account about the same time the owner of vault 713 did. But that really seems a bit hard to swallow, unless the Blacks are a VERY old family. The glimpse we got of the vault system of Gringotts looked extensive enouth for the actual vaults to number into the tens of thousands, eaasily, possibly hundreds of thousands. Vault #713 could well be Flammel's own vault, Nicholas having held it since the 14th or 15th century. If Sirius's #711 was a personal vault then it would have been opened in the last 40 years, possibly in the last 20. And that sounds like a rather low number for a compairitively new account (unless he was simply assigned the vault of an earlier, now closed account.) I'm finding it hard to seriously consider that there is any real significance to the two vaults having such close proximity, but am prepared to hold my disbelief in reserve, just in case. -JOdel From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Wed Sep 11 08:38:33 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 08:38:33 -0000 Subject: Hogwart's Express Space In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43889 Acire wrote: > Okay, I'm positive that magical space vs. real space was debated > before, BUT as I was driving about aimlessly at work last night, I > was wondering if anybody had anything to offer to my question. > > Okay, if Harry and Co. need to go through the wall to get to > Platform 9 3/4, wouldn't that mean that Hogwart's Express has its > own magical space? And, if it does, how is it, then, that Harry and > Ron were able to take a car (enchanted, but a Muggle car, > nonetheless) parked in a non-magical parking lot, make it invisible > and fly it upward, spot Hogwart's Express pulling out of the train > station, and follow it from London? Is there some dimension or > invisible line that they crossed, to get to magical space? > > -Acire To answer thi question, consider the extension of the magical spaces (or pockets, as I prefer to call them). These spaces are always relatively small compared to were they are hidden (two/three alleys in the whole of London), with the possible exception of the Forbidden Forest, which seems to stretch for miles and some listees have hypothesied that it occupies a space of its own. So, how big is the pocket inside a Station? It wouldn't stretch all the way to Hogwarts, for one thing. If it did, it would have to stretch all the way to all the possible destinations of wizard trains, and that doesn't look probable. Thus, the logical conclusion is that the pocket is inside the station, and that when the train leaves, it goes through another of those illusion walls and travels over rails. It doesn't really need the rails, possibly, just like the knight bus doesn't need roads, but while the knight bus has little muggle public since it works in the little hours, the train operates during the day, and the risk of muggle seing a train go thruogh spaces normally ocupied by houese *who have let it pass* would be to big. Whether the train uses normal rails (which means that there should be trouble when crossing with muggle trains) or whether it uses abandoned rails is open to discussion. I mysef tend towards the normal rails, but there are problems with both ideas. Of course, when Harry and Ron took the car, they only had to wait for the train to get out of the station (becoming visible not only to them but to the entire muggle population) and follow it all the way to Hogsmeade and then to Hogwarts. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Wed Sep 11 09:11:32 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 09:11:32 -0000 Subject: Harry's wands in the graveyard/ other ponderings In-Reply-To: <015a01c25930$11216a20$9aa2cdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43890 Richelle Votaw wrote: > Okay, first things first. When the topic of who may have Cedric's > wand came up, I immediately went and reread the entire graveyard > scene for the umpteenth time. Anyway, let's get this out of the way > first. It may be a simple error in wording, but how exactly did > Harry's wand get from his hand into his robes? Here we go (all > quotes are from Scholastic paperback edition): > > Harry's hand had closed on Cedric's wrist; one tombstone stood > between him and Voldemort, but Cedric was too heavy to carry, and > the cup was out of reach-- > "Accio!" Harry yelled, pointing his wand at the Triwizard Cup. > It flew into the air and soared with him. It flew into the air > and soared toward him. Harry caught it by the handle-- > > Okay, let me stop and evaulate here. Harry is clutching Cedric's > wrist in one hand. In the other hand he has his wand, which he > points at the cup. Then he grabs the cup. In which hand? I'm > assuming the one with the wand. You know, kind of grabs it with > three fingers, still holding the wand with two? I don't see how he'd > have had time to get the wand back in his robes and then getting his > hand up in time to grab the cup. Harry is special trained to catch fast moving things (i.e the snitch), so he must have very fast hands: even of you and I couldn't quickly throw our hands into the robe to put back the wand and out again to catch the cup, it doesn't mean that Harry can't do it. However, this is not my main point. The thing is, how much do you need to "grab" a portkey to activate it and be transported by it? Nothing, really: you just have to touch it, as Harry did with the shoe that took him to the forest near the camping ground. If Portkeys can be activated by contact (someone recently presented a theory that explains that portkeys are "armed" at a certain time and then activate as soon as someone touches them, which I loved. Sorry I can't remember who you are), then to activate the Portkey!Cup, Harry could have grabbed it with his little finger. I picture the cup as a quite big object, so that sort of hold would become very painful in a few seconds (not that Harry would notice, with all he was passing through), but the grab *doesn't* last seconds. He grabs it and is inmediately taken to Hogwarts. Harry then notices the cup, especially it's weight, and lets it go. > All he's holding is the cup and Cedric. So how does the wand get > from his hand to his pocket/robes/wherever? The next time Harry's > wand is mentioned is in Moody's office when he thinks to himself > he'll never reach it in time, then starts to reach for it as > Dumbledore Stupefies Moody/Crouch. > > Things like that bother me, though I'm sure its just an error. Or an > omission. As I've said, he has fast hands, so he could've had time. But it's also possible that he doesn't put his hand away: it's still there, clutched between two fingers, and that Harry has forgotten about it (just like you forget you're wearing your glasses on the head and so on). When he arrives, it's still in his hand, and when Crouch!Moody takes him away, a part of his brain recognizes the wand, and puts it away without bothering the inform the conscient Harry of that every-day action (this happens frecuently: I could never, for the life of me, remember whether I've locked the door. So far, I always have, but it's such a common thing that I forget instantly). > Now, as I was rereading the conversation between Moody/Crouch and > Harry is Moody/Crouch's office, I noticed something that may or may > not be worth anything: > > "The Dark Lord didn't manage to kill you, Potter, and he *so* > wanted to," whispered Moody. "Imagine how he will reward me when > he finds I have done it for him. I gave you to him--the thing he > needed above all to regenerate--and then I killed you for him. I > will be honored beyond all other Death Eaters. I will be his > > dearest, his closest supporter . . . closer than a son . . .." > > Closer than a son? Hmm, interesting wording. First of all, let me > say that yes, it could just be an expression. However, isn't the > common expression "closer than a brother?" At least around here it > is. Still, it could be just an expression, or it could be something > more. The slightest of hints . . . could the dark lord have a son??? > > Richelle Please note that Crouch Jr. hates his real father and looks at Voldemort like a better father. What he intends is to change his real father by Voldwemort, and a lot of what he says and does on that scene reveals this longing. He sees many similar things between him and Voldemort, but he's still very aware of the fact that Voldemort is some 40 years his senior, so they cannot be brothers. Besides, Crouch Jr. strikes me as a singular unloved fellow (at least *fatherly* love): he grew up looking for a father figure which Crouch Sr. didn't provide, and he found it in Voldemort. Voldemort, uncapable of love, doesn't understand the cravings of Crouch Jr, but sees all the ways to use this sort of blind follower. Crouch Jr, on the other hand, truly believes that by proving himself worthy, Voldemort will accept him as a son (small chance, IMO), and that is what drives him to serve LV. I've always wondered about what moves the different types of DE, because so far the only two we know are Crouch Jr (which I don't think is a common circunstance) and Macnair, who joined for the pleasure of the blood, which may be a slightly more common motivation, but that is too crude for the types of Lucius. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Wed Sep 11 09:47:04 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 09:47:04 -0000 Subject: AK effects (was:Wand mix up)/erised/Sirius' vault In-Reply-To: <011701c2592a$b66b9ec0$9aa2cdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43891 Richelle Votaw wrote: > I can't recall if there's > canon to suggest that one simply falls limp from an AK or goes rigid. Ah! the mechanics of the AK! One of my favourite subjects, and my first theory ever. Let's see what we can extrapolate from canon to answer this particular question. So far, he have seen or been described *in detail* ("bright green light" + "oh, he's dead" isn't detail) four succesful AKs: the three Riddles and the spider in Crouch!Moody's class. We also know of a few unsuccesful AKs, but those are irrelevant in this case. We even have the autopsies of the Riddle's, and that's the canon I'm going to use (ch. 1 GoF). The forensic deprtment of Big Hangleton police describes the bodies as in a perfect state, except that they're dead. Looking for something strange in the bodies, they finally notice that the faces look very afraid, but conclude that no-one can die of terror. (My own private theory on the AK establishes that, even though you *don't* die of terror, humans notice what it's hapening to them and are instinctively afraid of what is hapening (they're souls are being forcefully separated from their bodies), so theire faces adopt expresions of terror, and all their muscles tense.) At any rate, if the police didn't overlook something important during the forensic examination (and I doubt it), the Riddles died after an intense moment of terror (whether or not the terror was the cause of death is beside the point). The feelings of terror have several obvious physical consequences: you hair stands on end, adrenalin is liberated into the blood flow, and all the muscles tense in preparation to fight or run away. If, in that moment, you die, your muscles probably *stay* tense (or at least, is more probabe that they stay tense than they suddenly relax), so it seems probable that if Cedric had managed to grab his wand, it is still in his hand, and possibly they'll have to pry the hand open if they want to take it away from his corpse. > Well, my one problem (or at least the biggest one) with this theory > is that we don't *really* know that Dumbledore saw socks in the > mirror. That's what he told Harry. I must say if someone asked me > what I saw in the mirror I doubt I'd really tell them. Like you, Richelle, I don't think that Dumbledore *really* saw socks in the mirror. In fact, not even *Harry* believs it, which is a good proof, IMO. > Another issue > is, how did Dumbledore know what Harry and Ron saw? I suppose he > could've been guessing, it's not hard to pin those two down. If he had been spying on the pair for a long time, as he himself suggests, he saw and heard them describe to each other what they each saw in the mirror. > Fyre Wood wrote: > > > How odd is it that the vault of Sirius is number 711 and just two > > vaults down is number 713, the one holding the Philosopher's Stone? > > Perhaps the high security vaults are also used for Prisoners of > > Azkaban or convicted murderers? Or maybe it's just a random > > occurance? Richelle replied: > I've been pondering that ever since I learned the vault number of > Sirius Black. Seeing as my stupid (sorry!) Scholastic edition doesn't > say. However, technically speaking vaults 711 and 713 could be beside > each other, not two vaults down. If odd numbered vaults are on one > side and even numbered on the other. Interesting. > > Richelle Of course, it is entirely posible that vaults 711 and 713 are miles away from each other. This is a *magical* bank, run by *non-human* creatures We rally don't know how a goblin though process goes, but they don't have to use logical paterns close to ours. They seem to take a delight in confusing their clients, and in protecting their valuables, so a random numeration of vaults is a good idea, to begin with. After all, the method to finding the vault does not really require a logical ordering, since the cart knows the way. Gryphooks goes with them to open the doors, not to steer the cart. And a magical object cn be enchanted to remember every vault's position, without any need to have those vults follow any order. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From doffy99 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 11 08:57:12 2002 From: doffy99 at yahoo.com (doffy99) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 08:57:12 -0000 Subject: Is Dumbledore Merlin? (Was I doubt it was a portkey)(Was Hagrid flew) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43892 "maddiehayes01" wrote: > > Hi! This is my first post, but I've been on the list for a while. > I'd just like to point out something about the portkey. Marcus says > portkeys have to have a predetermined destination, but the school > *did* know where Harry was. When Hagrid finally gets to Harry and > has had his yelling bit with Dursley, he hands Harry his letter, on > page 51, American hardback. The letter is addressed to: "Mr. H. > Potter, The Floor, Hut-on-the-Rock, The Sea." So a portkey can't be > ruled out, though I'll admit I don't think that's how it was done, > though I suspect that will be revealed later on. I sure hope so, > I've been wondering about it for a while! > > ~Katey This brings up a BRAND new question for me. HOW Did the school know where Harry was? They always did. First under the stairs, then the hotel and finally the cabin. They even had specifics like "the Floor" and "the cabinet under the stairs" or "the smallest bedroom." How does Dumbledore know in SS that when he's old enough, that Harry will know what he needs to know? Why does Dumbledore eyes show success, briefly, when he finds out Voldemort has some of Harry's blood in him making him able to touch Harry. Dumbledore sure is smart isn't he? Or is he? In the Legends of King Arthur, the wizard Merlin knows a lot about what is going to happen too. Why? Because he lives backwards. He experiences his old age first and then the rest of his life, getting younger as he goes. Could Dumbledore be doing the same thing? If he is, it explains why he knows so much. We all know JKR LOves referencing Mythology and other classic "Magical" tales. Why wouldn't she use Merlin. Merlin even shows up on the "Great Wizard Cards" in the Chocolate frogs. It would explain how he knows EXACTLY where Harry would be because would have already told him in Harry's future. It explains why he KNEW Harry would know what he needs to know, when he needs to know it, before Harry knows much of anything. (I apologize for that last sentence. hehe) Opinions?? -Jeff From mysmacek at yahoo.com Wed Sep 11 09:00:35 2002 From: mysmacek at yahoo.com (mysmacek) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 09:00:35 -0000 Subject: Quirrell's Tenure (WAS: Quirrell) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43893 Regarding Quirrell, LV talks about him during his graveyard boasting in GoF. He says that Quirrell returned from Albania 4 years ago - i.e. either during the summer vacation (or few weeks before) before Harry's first year in Hogwarts. IMO especially the latter case perfectly agrees with the canon - he was already reintroduced in the end of the previous year, so there's no need to introduce again him on Harry's 1st day in Hogwarts. *Mysmacek* who read the graveyard scene today at 3am From doffy99 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 11 09:26:48 2002 From: doffy99 at yahoo.com (doffy99) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 09:26:48 -0000 Subject: Potterland's secret code In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43894 "Melody" wrote: > Weasleys (we do have nine so I will use first names) > Arthur: 2 > Molly: 1 > Bill: 1 > Charlie: 3 [Evil] (ahhhhh, no not Charlie) > Percy: 1 > Fred: 1 > George: 3 [Evil] (seems the twins are distinguishable) > Ron: 1, or even if you wish, Ronald: 2 > Ginny: 1 <> I'm just going to concentrate on the Weasley's because you did make a few mistakes. 1) Bill. It's possible his GIVEN name is William. That gives him 3. EVIL. 2) Charlie with 3. Could be Charles with 2. NOT EVIL. 3) Fred could Frederick with 3 or Fredrick with 2. Evil? Not Evil? He can't decide hehe 4) George is just plain screwed. Sorry George. :) 5) Ginny, We KNOW Ginny is not her given name. Virginia is her given name. That's 4. She's EVIL! I love this idea. Hehe -Jeff From eloiseherisson at aol.com Wed Sep 11 11:30:20 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 07:30:20 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Quirrell's Tenure (WAS: Quirrell) Message-ID: <8.2c468685.2ab0834c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43895 Constance Vigilance (I still love that name!) : > As was pointed out by another poster, Quirrelmort with the bee in his > bonnet didn't happen until after the episode at Gringotts. But I do > think that V-mort was nearby at Hogwarts previous, and that Quirrel > taught at least one year in that condition, because neither Hagrid > nor Percy call him "the new DADA teacher" or "just returned", which I > think it would be typical to mention if he were. And furthermore, > Dumbledore makes it a habit to recognize new staff at the opening feast > speech. Eloise: That is a logical conclusion. *But*... as Mysmacek noted, In the graveyard, that is in the summer of Harry's fourth year at Hogwarts, Voldemort says, 'Then...*four years ago* [my emphasis]...the means for my return seemed assured. A wizard - *young* [my emphasis again], foolish and gullible - wandered across my path in the forest I had made my home he brought me back to this country, and after a while. I took posession of his body....' That seems pretty unequivocal. Voldemort only came back to Britain with Quirrell during the summer before Harry started at Hogwarts. I presume that Quirrell *didn't* take a whole sabbatical year, but just went off for the summer. If we want to be picky about the exact use of 'four years', then we could argue he left a bit before the end of term. That would explain why there was no welcome back and Percy didn't comment that he'd been away. Voldemort *does* imply, in the same speeech, though, that Quirrell is already in post. > Also, how would Hagrid know that Q was afraid of his > students if there weren't at least one term where he had students? I > think we can conclude that Harry's first year is not Q's first year > post-sabbatical. > Eloise: And that is also a logical conclusion, which is why the issue is thorny. How would Hagrid know? I am going to draw the opposite conclusion, based on Voldemort's speech, that it *is* Quirrell's first year post his 'practical experience'. But there's no two ways about it, the evidence is conflicting. Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From smiller at dslextreme.com Wed Sep 11 01:54:39 2002 From: smiller at dslextreme.com (Susan Miller) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 01:54:39 -0000 Subject: Neville, the sorting hat, and N.I.N.E In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43896 Dogberry wondered: > Er, I'm not sure why Neville would be under the imperious curse, > maybe I missed that conversation when I was away, I havn't caught up > yet, but could someone explain that one to me. That came about because I posted (on the OT-chatter board) a rumor that was started by someone who claims to work at Scholastic and has already read a version of the next book. He claims that when Fake! Moody put Neville under the Imperious curse during class, that the curse was never lifted, and that Neville is now available to be made to do evil things. You can read the whole post in OT-chatter. I'd better quit now, or this message will get nuked by the list-elves. ~ Constance Vigilance From bdmorrp at budget.state.ny.us Wed Sep 11 14:10:14 2002 From: bdmorrp at budget.state.ny.us (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 14:10:14 -0000 Subject: Harry's Vault Number (WAS: Gringotts Vaults) In-Reply-To: <111.182567fa.2ab037e3@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43897 JOdel asked: > Question; I don't have my copies of the books by me, but were we > told what number is Harry's vault? Now me: I just reviewed PS, and no, there's no reference to Harry's vault number (although the Movie That Must Not Be Named says it's #637). PS just indicates that the rollercoaster took Harry and Hagrid "deeper" underground after visiting Harry's vault to get to vault #713. So Harry's vault is higher up than 713, but we don't know its number. And as was previously mentioned, it's possible that the vaults aren't in any particular numerical order (after all, I work in a State Capitol building and none of our doors follow a correct numerical sequence, and there's no magic here, believe me :-). ~Phyllis From bdmorrp at budget.state.ny.us Wed Sep 11 14:30:01 2002 From: bdmorrp at budget.state.ny.us (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 14:30:01 -0000 Subject: Harry Can Hold Both A Wand And Another Object (WAS: Harry's wands) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43898 Richelle Votaw wrote: > Okay, let me stop and evaulate here. Harry is clutching Cedric's > wrist in one hand. In the other hand he has his wand, which he > points at the cup. Then he grabs the cup. In which hand? I'm > assuming the one with the wand. You know, kind of grabs it with > three fingers, still holding the wand with two? I don't see how > he'd have had time to get the wand back in his robes and then > getting his hand up in time to grab the cup. Now me: In the Quidditch match against Ravenclaw in PoA, Harry "stretched out the hand *still grasping his wand* and just managed to close his fingers over the small, struggling Snitch" (Ch. 13, UK ed., p. 194, my emphasis). So before the graveyard scene, we have canon to support that Harry can catch an object in the same hand that is still holding his wand. Although I acknowledge that a Snitch is a lot smaller than the Triwizard Cup, but Harry only had to grab the handle of the Cup before the portkey took over and did the rest. ~Phyllis From bdmorrp at budget.state.ny.us Wed Sep 11 14:59:02 2002 From: bdmorrp at budget.state.ny.us (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 14:59:02 -0000 Subject: DE Motivations (WAS: Harry's wands in the graveyard/other ponderings) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43899 Grey Wolf wrote: > I've always wondered about what moves the different types of DE, > because so far the only two we know are Crouch Jr (which I don't > think is a common circumstance) and Macnair, who joined for the > pleasure of the blood, which may be a slightly more common > motivation, but that is too crude for the types of Lucius. Now me: I have to say that this isn't something I've given a lot of thought to before, but I'm going to correct that right now! I agree with Grey Wolf that Crouch Jr. was looking for a substitute father figure in Voldemort, and that Macnair is blood-hungry. As for the others: Wormtail - the most interesting, IMO. Reading the canon on the surface suggests that he's only with Voldemort because he's afraid of him (as he says in the Shrieking Shack in Ch. 19 of PoA with regard to Voldemort, "What was there to be gained by refusing him?"). He's portrayed as spineless and stupid, but I don't think he's either. I think it took a lot of brains and courage to come up with the idea on- the-spot to blast a street full of Muggles in order to frame Sirius. And then he bit Goyle Jr. while posing as Scabbers in PS/SS - there is definitely *something* to this, IMO. I think Sirius' line in Ch. 19 of PoA sums Wormtail up nicely: "...you never did anything for anyone unless you could see what was in it for you" (UK ed. p. 271). Wormtail's primary motivation is greed, IMO. He stuck with the Mauraders until Voldemort gave him a better deal. Lucius - Greed as well, but power mostly, I think. He seems to *love* bullying the Hogwarts governors into forcing Dumbledore to step down in CoS, and bullying the Disposal Committee members into executing Buckbeak. He hates Muggles and delights in torturing them at the World Cup in GoF and in plotting to kill/petrify Muggle-borns in CoS. I see this as a combination of power-lust and hatred born of prejudice. Crabbe Sr. and Goyle Sr. - We don't have much on them, but Voldemort saying "You will do better this time" in GoF suggests that they're as stupid as their kids. So possibly they weren't smart and/or brave enough to fend off Voldemort (but why Voldemort would want stupid followers is a mystery to me!). Avery - his terror at facing Voldemort in the graveyard suggests that he is fairly low on courage and could have been bullied into joining the Dark Side. I'm looking forward to seeing how JKR develops the DEs in future books. All of them, except the ones in Azkaban, Crouch Jr. and Wormtail, renounced Voldemort after he fell from power. And while Wormtail didn't openly renounce Voldemort, he didn't go looking for him until his true identity was revealed and he had nowhere else to go. So Voldemort has precious few *loyal* followers, and he knows it. ~Phyllis who also repeatedly rechecks locked doors and turned off coffeepots (nice to know I'm in good company!) From uncmark at yahoo.com Wed Sep 11 16:28:41 2002 From: uncmark at yahoo.com (Mark D.) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 16:28:41 -0000 Subject: Marauders Map and Unplottable Chambers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43900 I'm sure it's been asked before, but what would Fred and George have found if they had used the Marauder's Map to look in the 3rd Floor Corridor in Book 1 or searched for the Chamber of Secrets in Book 2? I think everyone would agree that in Book 1 F&G would have looked in the 3rd Floor Corridor with the map as soon as they had been told the Corridor was out of bounds. In Book 2 they would have looked for the Chamber after Halloween when everyone and their sistrer was checking out Hagwart's: A History. Obvious Answer: We read in book 4 (and in FB) about unplottable charms. There is most likely something of this type over the entirety of Hagwart's, Diagon Alley, Durmstrang, and Beauxbaton. Is it possible to place a localized unplottable charm on one corridor or chamber? I suggest it would be possible but extremely difficult. The Chamber of Secret would have had one, built into it from the beginning by Slytherin and probably cast over several years with dark magic sustaining it (and possibly keeping the basilisk vital) However the third floor corridor and maze was most likely set up over weeks or months. Dumbledore placed the Mirror of Erided in it only after Xmas. And IF it were possible or feasible to put an unplottable charm around one chamber, wouldn't the Marauder's Map have been full of unreadable areas from overprotective wizards? Could you have seen Snape or Moody not shielding ther quarters? (More later) Point of Observation: I bevieve that to Fred and George, thge Map was a Toy, a toll to sneak around, but not the prized possession that it was for Harry. Also Fred and Georger although jokesters and rule benders did not possess the capacity of curiosity and recklessness of HRH. When they looked at the third floor corridor and saw a Hellhound stalking the hall, they most likely gave up looking further. If they had they would have found empty chambers (would the charms or stone even be noted on the map?) Remember the original writers were exploreres and rulebreakers, but not thieves. I don't think either F or G had the patience to sit for hours wataching the map for a thorough search of the school's chambers. Or else we come to the final mindbender. What would F & G have seen in SorSt if they had looked in Querrill's room? Would the map have named Voldemort? UNcmark From gandharvika at hotmail.com Wed Sep 11 17:43:03 2002 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 17:43:03 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups]Year With The Yeti (FILK) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43901 Just me, jumping on the CoS/Lockhart bandwagon...psyching myself up for the movie-that-must-not-be-named part II...if only so I can watch, on the silver screen, Snape blast Lockhart away in the dueling scene :) _Year With The Yeti_ (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune _Eye of the Tiger_ by Survivor) Lockhart: Risin' up, by my own guile Look at me, ain't I handsome? Five time winner Of the most charming smile Just a man and his humongous ego How many times have I done it before? I traded truth for the glory Sell my books on the strength of my looks Let me show you my portfolio (Chorus) Read my _Year With the Yeti_ Then there's _Gadding With Ghouls_ And _Voyages With Vampires_ Is a classic My biography Is called _Magical Me_ But I must say the best is the _Year With the Yeti_ Pretty face, fancy new duds Wavy hair, feeling smarmy Don't know what I'm doing But, damn I look good The acclaim to my fame is a show (repeat Chorus) I don't care if I am a fop Have no guts, just want glory Find my books Down at Flourish and Blotts Just a man and his humongous ego (repeat Chorus) _Year With the Yeti_ _Year With the Yeti_ _Year With the Yeti_ _Year With the Yeti_ (Fade) _Gail B. who will be the one in the darkened movie theatre shouting, "Go get 'em, Snape!" _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From bak42 at netzero.net Wed Sep 11 17:53:55 2002 From: bak42 at netzero.net (bak42) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 10:53:55 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Potterland's secret code In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c259bc$34ed8420$d0073a41@bak42> No: HPFGUIDX 43902 Jeff wrote. 5) Ginny, We KNOW Ginny is not her given name. Virginia is her given name. That's 4. She's EVIL! I would like to know where you saw heard that Ginny's given name is Virginia because I've looked in the lexicon and I can't find it there. ------------------------------------- Brandon -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GU d- s+:-- a-- C++>$ U? L(-) E? W++ N? o? K? w+ !O M-- V? PS(+) PE Y PGP- t++ 5++ X- R tv++ b+++ DI+++ D+ G e(*) h! !r !z+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release Date: 8/2/02 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 11 18:03:59 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 18:03:59 -0000 Subject: Marauders Map and Unplottable Chambers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43903 UNcmark wrote: > I'm sure it's been asked before, but what would Fred and George > have found if they had used the Marauder's Map to look in the 3rd > Floor Corridor in Book 1 or searched for the Chamber of Secrets in > Book 2? Now me: A most intriguing question! And one I had not thought of before. I think the answer is that the Marauders made the Map, so the Map only shows the rooms/chambers/passageways that the Marauders found during their explorations of Hogwarts. With regard to the 3rd floor corridor in PS/SS, I don't have the impression that new rooms/chambers were built to guard the Stone; I thought that the different obstacles were placed in existing rooms. And my impression of the Map is that it shows people and locations, not objects or animals. Although the chessmen came alive, but perhaps F&G weren't looking at the Map during Quirrellmort's attempts to get to the Stone (which would explain why they didn't see Quirrell show up as a dot there). Or perhaps, since the chessmen were not really "human" (at least, I didn't think they were!) they wouldn't show up. With regard to the Chamber of Secrets, as Professor Binns says, "...the school has been searched for evidence of such a chamber, many times, by the most learned witches and wizards" (CoS Ch. 9, UK ed., p. 115). So the Marauders probably didn't find it, either, and therefore it wasn't placed on the Map (I suspect that James, Sirius and Remus would have tried to kill the Basilisk themselves if they had been able to find the Chamber). UNcmark again: > What would F & G have seen in SorSt if they had looked in > Querrill's room? Would the map have named Voldemort? Me again: Ooooh, another good question! Perhaps Voldemort didn't show up because he didn't have a body of his own? ~Phyllis From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Sep 11 14:00:34 2002 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 14:00:34 -0000 Subject: Neville and the sorting hat In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020909223526.01f11ec0@MAILHOST.JORSM.COM> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43904 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Carol Bainbridge wrote: > Something struck me about the sorting hat's response to Neville. It's not > a big line, but I wonder about its meaning now: > > "The hat took a long time to decide with Neville." > > Every time I read that line, I just assumed that because Neville was such a > klutz -- and not terribly magical -- the hat had a tough time figuring out > where he belonged. Now I have to wonder, especially with, but not > exclusively because of, the possibility that Neville will be working for > Voldemort under the imperious charm. I sure wish we heard what the hat was > saying as it figured where to put Neville as we heard it talk to Harry. Neville-- the hat might have tryed to convince him that he does belong in Gryffindor. How many times Neville says he's not brave enough to be Gryffindor and that he should have been Hufflepuff for being so lowsy. That talk says a lot-- Neville values Gryffindor above all houses. It would be ridiculous if the person can not be proud of the house he's in... And -- 'not magic enough' - well... Not magic enough to use non-wand- magic as we've seen Harry do before getting his wand. --Finwitch From sugarkadi at aol.com Wed Sep 11 19:44:30 2002 From: sugarkadi at aol.com (sugarkadi at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 15:44:30 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Potterland's secret code Message-ID: <6EF11E51.7C5A1867.0290C41F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43905 Brandon wrote: > I would like to know where you saw heard that Ginny's given name is > Virginia because I've looked in the lexicon and I can't > find it there. I was at a website looking at the cast for the CoS, and it said Bonnie Wright was playing Virginia 'Ginny' Weasley. This may be an assumption on the part of the people who run the website though. The site is http://us.imdb.com/Credits?0295297 ~Katey =) From doffy99 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 11 20:00:35 2002 From: doffy99 at yahoo.com (doffy99) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 20:00:35 -0000 Subject: Potterland's secret code In-Reply-To: <000001c259bc$34ed8420$d0073a41@bak42> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43906 I wrote: > > 5) Ginny, We KNOW Ginny is not her given name. Virginia is her given > name. That's 4. She's EVIL! > Bak42 Wrote: > I would like to know where you saw heard that Ginny's given name is > Virginia because I've looked in the lexicon and I can't find it there. Me Again: Honestly, I don't remember. I don't think it was in the movie, Ginny wasn't in the movie that much. I'm almost sure it was in one of the books. I just don't remember which one or where. I'll look for it and let you know. This is frustrating. I'm almost sure I read it somewhere. I'll look for it and see if I can find it. -Jeff From MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Sep 11 20:13:33 2002 From: MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM (mitchbailey82) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 20:13:33 -0000 Subject: Werewolves/ Lupin etc. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43907 Hi I've been reading POA for the ? time again (I've lost count!) and I've got a couple of questions (oh dear!): First Question: Werewolves: Lupin has gone prematurely grey; it also seems to take a lot out of him when he changes into a wolf. Examples: After Snape has filled in for him for DADA it is clearly stated that he looks like he's been ill. Also on the train when we first see him he looks ill, though it could be down to poor diet etc. I've always presumed that there must have been a full moon near to the time he was due to start at Hogwarts. Also wolfsbane - also known as monkshood and aconite (PS ;-)) is poisonous and it makes sense due to it's namesake that wolfsbane potion contains some wolfsbane, therefore I would presume that wolfsbane potion is (even if it's only mildly) poisonous. So put this all together: - Prematurely grey -looks extremely ill after full moon -wolfsbane potion could be mildly poisonous. I was wondering (I've got there in the end!!) if being a werewolf reduces your life expectancy (sorry if its in FB but I haven't got a copy - I must invest in one...) OK Second question: Does anyone else get the feeling that Lupin is older than James, Sirius, Peter and the rest of the students in his year? I only say this because of the line in POA when there in the shrieking shake and Lupin says: "But then Dumbledore became headmaster ... he said that as long as we took certain precautions..." Its the BUT THEN that I'm interested in - it sounds to me that when Lupin came of age to go to Hogwarts that Dumbledore wasn't headmaster and so he wasn't allowed to go to Hogwarts BUT THEN Dumbledore became headmaster and he was allowed to go. I've got a feeling that Lupin is 1 maybe 2 (not more than 2 otherwise all the other students in his year would figure it out due to height difference etc.) years older than James, Peter, Sirius etc. I just get the feeling that he wasn't 11 when he started at Hogwarts - I might be wrong but... I'm not happy with that line in the book I think we are supposed to read more into it? Oh well I've gone on for long enough :-) Michelle From rvotaw at i-55.com Wed Sep 11 22:45:33 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 17:45:33 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Can Hold Both A Wand And Another Object (WAS: Harry's wands) References: Message-ID: <011d01c259e4$f1044680$7a9dcdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 43908 > Richelle Votaw wrote: > > > Okay, let me stop and evaulate here. Harry is clutching Cedric's > > wrist in one hand. In the other hand he has his wand, which he > > points at the cup. Then he grabs the cup. In which hand? I'm > > assuming the one with the wand. You know, kind of grabs it with > > three fingers, still holding the wand with two? I don't see how > > he'd have had time to get the wand back in his robes and then > > getting his hand up in time to grab the cup. Now Phyllis: > > In the Quidditch match against Ravenclaw in PoA, Harry "stretched out > the hand *still grasping his wand* and just managed to close his > fingers over the small, struggling Snitch" (Ch. 13, UK ed., p. 194, > my emphasis). So before the graveyard scene, we have canon to > support that Harry can catch an object in the same hand that is still > holding his wand. Although I acknowledge that a Snitch is a lot > smaller than the Triwizard Cup, but Harry only had to grab the handle > of the Cup before the portkey took over and did the rest. True, I even tried holding a pen and another object in the same hand, pen can easliy be held by the thumb and index finger, pressed against the palm. So could the wand. What bothered me was when Harry returned to Hogwarts, hit the ground, and to steady himself clutched the "two things" he was still holding. Cedric and the cup. The wand is not mentioned. Now it is true I suppose, that Harry could've forgotten he was even holding his wand if we're seeing through his perspective. Once Dumbledore stood him up he may have just stuck it in his pocket out of habit, and never consciously thought of it. I will say that I didn't think of the possiblity someone (sorry, sorry, can't remember!) mentioned that as a Quidditch player Harry's reflexes are extremely fast and the wand could even have gone into his pocket while in transit through the portkey, if you can move at the time. I've never used one, wouldn't know. :) Richelle From Malady579 at hotmail.com Wed Sep 11 22:49:02 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 22:49:02 -0000 Subject: Potterland's secret code In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43909 Jeff and Frye Wood wrote in response to my Potterland Secret Code post where I wrote: >>What if JKR put a code into her names to help us distinguish whether the characters were good or evil. The key to the secret code is that the name that distinguishes a character from all the other characters must have only three vowels.<< Here is my response to them: Jeff wrote: >>I'm just going to concentrate on the Weasley's because you did make a few mistakes. 1) Bill. It's possible his GIVEN name is William. That gives him 3. EVIL. 2) Charlie with 3. Could be Charles with 2. NOT EVIL. 3) Fred could Frederick with 3 or Fredrick with 2. Evil? Not Evil? He can't decide hehe 4) George is just plain screwed. Sorry George. :) 5) Ginny, We KNOW Ginny is not her given name. Virginia is her given name. That's 4. She's EVIL!<< I write: Your points are of course possible, but I was going with what we know in the canon. If it is revealed that the names we know the Weasleys by are in fact nicknames, then, well, I will be happy to rewrite my assumptions. :) Why did you stop with the above listed Weasleys though? Percy could be named Percival and thus EVIL. Seems Molly and Arthur are safe since I cannot think of any other names for them without making new ones for them. I don't know if 4 vowel names are evil, so Ginny may be safe. There is just not enough evidence to support that claim. Very few distinguishing names in Potterland have four vowels. But hey, if you are "convinced" she is evil then we can put in the rules that three or more vowels in the name denotes evil status. Kind of fun to make up the rules of insane codes. Then Frye Wood wrote: >>As a loyal Draco Malfoy fangirl, I've always considered Draco to be in the same boat as Snape. Like Snape, Draco does what is best for him... whether that be being evil, or doing something good .... but it has to be for HIS OWN benefit.<< Me: Hmmm, may be there is a code for 2 vowel names or rather for characters that have two consonants that begin thier first name. Oooo, maybe those that have two consonants in thier distiguishing name are carefully walking a line between good and evil and have a habit for survival. Hmmm, that works for Draco and Snape....and Black (definately looking out for himself)... Charlie (again??)... Skeeter (Ooo, she works) I see a new theory emerging.... Then Frye wrote: >>Very interesting theory. Would you mind if I place that on my website with giving you proper credit? << Me: Sure I have no problem with that. As long as you do say that it is not based on ANY facts from JKR. Just sheer boredom. ;) Melody "A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest man." From kkearney at students.miami.edu Thu Sep 12 00:31:03 2002 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 00:31:03 -0000 Subject: Gringotts vaults (was;various) In-Reply-To: <111.182567fa.2ab037e3@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43910 Fyre Wood wrote: > How odd is it that the vault of Sirius is number 711 and just two > vaults down is number 713, the one holding the Philosopher's > Stone? > Perhaps the high security vaults are also used for Prisoners of > Azkaban or convicted murderers? Or maybe it's just a random > occurance? And Jodel wrote: > As to the matter of vault 711 and 713; yeah that sounds like quite a > coincidence, all right. The vaults were almost certainly assigned in > the > order that the clients opened accounts. The Black family (or Sirius > himself) > seem to have opened an account about the same time the owner of > vault 713 > did. But that really seems a bit hard to swallow, unless the Blacks > are a > VERY old family. > I'm finding it hard to seriously > consider > that there is any real significance to the two vaults having such > close > proximity, but am prepared to hold my disbelief in reserve, just in > case. Now me: I agree with those who think the near sequenti0al numbers indicate that the two accounts were opened at the same (or very nearly the same) time. I don't believe the number necessarily indicates that the account is extremely old. In fact, I think it much more possible that both accounts are fairly new. In the short time we see it, we see the Philosopher's Stone move to two separate hiding places. It's entirely possible that Flamel constantly moved the stone to protect it. Therefore, the stone need not have resided in that vault since its discovery. My theory: Sirius opened his account and deposited all his valuables just before his final confrontation in the last fight against Voldemort. He did this along with the rest of the "old crowd", including Dumbledore, who at the time had possession of the stone. Who knows, maybe vault 712 includes something belonging to Lily and James. -Corinth From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Sep 12 00:40:02 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 00:40:02 -0000 Subject: Why Can't Hagrid Do Magic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43911 Heather mused whimsically in message #43836: > ...slight snip... > Why, exactly, is Hagrid not allowed to do magic? > Canon tells us that he's "not supposed ter do magic, > strictly speakin'" and the reason is because of the > CoS incident, ...snip... > > > >Heather, who thinks that keeping Hagrid from doing >magic after his innocence is revealed is appalling. Animagi_Raven Replied: IIRC Hagrid was expelled from Hogwarts for raising dangerous animals in secret. ...snip... The student death was probably blamed on the spider (but how did a spider turn someone to stone?), *some* ...snip... - knew that the spider was not responsible. And did suspect that the Chamber had been opened. ...snip... - end- Animagi_Raven bboy_mn Adds: I've been wanting to reply to this thread but have had a hard time compiling enough thoughts to form a full paragraph and didn't have a real direct response to any one particular person. But, I'm going to try and interject a few thoughts now. The Crime- First, as Animagi_Raven pointed out, Hagrid's alleged crime was not minor. Someone suggested it was comparable to a misdemeanor or gross misdemeanor, however, Hagrid's alleged actions resulted in injury to several students and the death of one, so this was more along the line of gross negligence, criminal negligence or even homicidal negligence. Legally those may not be the right terms but they are still sufficient to make my point. Hagrid was accused of a felon in connection with the death of a student. Considering the felony nature of his alleged crime, he was very lucky to have not spent an extended stretch in prison. So, having his wand snap, being drummed out of school, and forbidden to do magic is an extremely mild sentence compared to what it could have been. Obviously, Dumbledore, being thoroughly convinced of both Hagrid's and the spider's innocents, pulled in some very big favors to keep Hagrid out of prison, and allow him to train as the gamekeeper. I'm guessing that the 'no magic' was one of the alternatives to prison that was intended to make the punishment fit the crime. The Magic- Certainly, within the boundaries of the school, Hagrid exits in a somewhat isolated world. Any breach of the 'no magic' rule is not likely to be detected by the wizard world at large. Since Dumbledore and the rest of the school staff know Hagrid, know that he is generally harmless, and are probably convinced that he is innocent, they conveniently look the other way when Hagrid performs magic. Now that there is some evidence that Hagrid really was not responsible for these injuries and death, I suspect the staff doesn't even bother to look the other way. It is accepted that Hagrid is unofficially allowed to do magic. The Training- Hagrid has had 50 years of practical experience and demonstrated magical skill to verify his ability as a wizard. I would think, with this demonstrated ability and life experience, he should be able to establish the minimum skill level to qualify as a wizard. While a little official tutoring wouldn't hurt, I think he has sufficient skill to qualify. The Wand- *A* wand was snapped, and the understanding is that it was Hagrid's wand, but given how poorly Ron's 'snapped' wand worked and how well Hagrid's umbrella works, I have to wonder if the wand inside that umbrella is really broken. Perhaps, in the official wand snapping ceremony, a substitute wand was used. The Resolution- Since Hagrid has been officially convicted of a crime and has officially documented sanctions against him, he can't be 'free' until that conviction is set aside, and the sanctions officially lifted. I agree that they are moving very slow in getting Hagrid's name officially cleared. I would think that Hermione at least would be kicking down the Ministry of Magic's door demanding that Hagrid be allowed to have a wand and do magic again. Personally, I think they have enough evidence even without the Riddle Diary to make this happen. Given that Hagrid has lived a clean productive life for over 50 years, is generally well known and well liked by the wizard world, and to some extent, well known and well like by high Ministry officials; I would think that with Dumbledore's explanation and Harry's testimony, they should be able to get the conviction set aside. Although, I can't, for the life of me, come up with a reason why they are not doing this. Perhaps' Dumbledore and Hagrid don't feel the need to make it official. Maybe they are content with the way things are; Hagrid has always done magic, and continues to do so, so he is functionally able to do what needs to be done, even if he is not officially able to do these things. As far as why Harry and friends haven't made a bigger issue of this, about all I can conclude is that they are kids, and assume that it is up to the adults to deal with this. In addition to all this, as Animagi_Raven pointed out, there is the one glaring inconsistency in the events that took place, and that is, the students turned to stone. Giant spiders are certainly dangerous and could easily kill people, but they don't petrify them (to my knowledge). This inconsistence could also be used to help clear Hagrid's name. The Circle- Now this brings us full circle, back to the question 'Why, exactly, is Hagrid not allowed to do magic?'. The only conclusions I can come up with are that JKR see this as an insignificant plot point, or she has bigger and more interesting plans for it's resolution in future books. As far as insignificant plot point, how hard would it be to clear this issue? A new school term starts and Hagrid says 'Harry, they cleared my name over the summer, look at my cool new wand.'; end of issue. Which only leaves, bigger and more interesting resolution in future books. No conclusions; just some thoughts. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Sep 12 01:19:47 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 01:19:47 -0000 Subject: Gringotts vaults (was;various) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43912 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "corinthum" wrote: > And Jodel wrote: > > The vaults were almost certainly assigned in the order that > > the clients opened accounts. The Black family (or Sirius himself) > > seem to have opened an account about the same time the owner of > > vault 713 did. > Now me: (Corinthum) > > I agree with those who think the near sequential numbers indicate > that the two accounts were opened at the same (or very nearly the > same) time. ....SNIP.... > > -Corinth bboy_mn commnets: Sorry, but I can't agree with the vault numbers being related to the chronology of the accounts. Instead of looking at it as something as abstract as an account, you need to look at it as something physical, which it is; it's a vault. Just like safety deposit boxes, the one you get is the next one available that meets your specifications. If someone closes Safety Deposit Box 105 out of 500, and #105 meets your specification, then it will be assigned to you. If the next available box is #206 then that is the one the next person will get. So I see no correlation between vault number and the time an account was opened. Also, keep in mind that there are different types of vaults just like there are different types of safety deposit boxes. I see the Weasley vault as being a general low security vault about the size of a freezer compartment in a refrigerator, Harry's vault is a large 'lock and key' vault about the size of a large walk-in closet, and Sirius and the Philosopher's Stone vaults are special high security vaults that are not as simple as a 'lock and key' vault. The high security vaults can only be opened by a Gringott's goblin (or an extremely skilled dark magic thief). All that can be concluded from the proximity of vault 711 and vault 713 is that they are both Very High Security Vaults. The secondary conclusion is that Sirius is either extremely rich or has something very valuable that he needs to protect. Of course, that's just my opinion. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Sep 12 02:05:12 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 02:05:12 -0000 Subject: Potterland's secret code In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43913 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "doffy99" wrote: > > > I wrote: > > > > 5) Ginny, We KNOW Ginny is not her given name. Virginia is > > her given name. That's 4. She's EVIL! > > > > Bak42 Wrote: > > >I would like to know where you saw heard that Ginny's given name > >is Virginia ...snip... > > Me Again: > > Honestly, ...snip... This is frustrating. I'm almost sure I read it > somewhere. I'll look for it and see if I can find it. > > -Jeff sorry for making such a short post, but the only other name I can think of that could have Ginny as a nickname is Genevive or Genevieve (Gen-EE-veev), although, it is most commonly spelled 'Jenny'. We need to keep in mind that 'Ginny' could be a nickname related to her middle name. My sister is Anne Elizabeth ... and we call he 'Liz'. So Ginny's real name could be something like 'Mehitabel Virginia Weasley'. Ginny according to the nicknames search I did, is most commonly associated with Virginia. Just a thought. bboy_mn From alina at distantplace.net Thu Sep 12 02:14:39 2002 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 22:14:39 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Potterland's secret code References: Message-ID: <008901c25a02$26cb7e60$4a112b18@shprd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43914 > sorry for making such a short post, but the only other name I can > think of that could have Ginny as a nickname is Genevive or Genevieve > (Gen-EE-veev), although, it is most commonly spelled 'Jenny'. > > We need to keep in mind that 'Ginny' could be a nickname related to > her middle name. My sister is Anne Elizabeth ... and we call he 'Liz'. > So Ginny's real name could be something like 'Mehitabel Virginia Weasley'. > > Ginny according to the nicknames search I did, is most commonly > associated with Virginia. > > Just a thought. > > bboy_mn I still think it's Regina! But my guess is as good as anyone's because no it wasn't anywhere in the books, Jeff, and no in the movie credits either (she's credited as Ginny Weasely on the DVD) Alina of Distant Place http://www.distantplace.net/ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release Date: 02/08/2002 From Zarleycat at aol.com Thu Sep 12 02:25:17 2002 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 02:25:17 -0000 Subject: Werewolves/ Lupin etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43915 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "mitchbailey82" wrote: > Does anyone else get the feeling that Lupin is older than James, > Sirius, Peter and the rest of the students in his year? I only say > this because of the line in POA when there in the > shrieking shake and Lupin says: > "But then Dumbledore became headmaster ... he said that as long as > we took certain precautions..." > Its the BUT THEN that I'm interested in - it sounds to me that when > Lupin came of age to go to Hogwarts that Dumbledore wasn't headmaster > and so he wasn't allowed to go to Hogwarts BUT THEN Dumbledore became > headmaster and he was allowed to go. Like a lot of JKR's chosen words, more than one interpretation can be made. And this explanation would work. One could assume that whoever was Headmaster before Dumbledore would never have considered letting a werewolf student attend. But, then, Dumbledore becomes Headmaster, and having a broader, more tolerant view of people, allows Remus to attend. My reading of the sentence in question has always been that Dumbledore became Headmaster in the nick of time, just as Remus turned eleven or approached his eleventh birthday, and Remus' parents were told that he'd be allowed to attend Hogwarts. If your reading of the line is correct, and Remus was a year or two older, would that matter to the plot? I can't think of anything off the top of my head that would make an age difference significant between Remus and J/S/P. If there's no real significance, then I don't know why JKR would bother setting that up. Marianne, tired and unable to think From alohamoira at yahoo.com Wed Sep 11 23:37:46 2002 From: alohamoira at yahoo.com (Aloha Moira) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 16:37:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Learning to apparate (WAS:Hagrid Flew?) In-Reply-To: <005701c2581d$30e009c0$904053d1@DJF30D11> Message-ID: <20020911233746.8762.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43916 Grace Saalsaa wrote: >>>> Being a not fully trained wizard doesn't have to mean that Hagrid can't fly - just as not being a certified mechanic doesn't mean you can't fix a car. And, I'm guessing that one doesn't have to be in school to learn magic. Look at Snape, who knew more about the Dark Arts when he arrived than many of the 7th year students. No teacher taught The Marauders how to create the map, and yet they did it. No one taught them how to become animgi either and they managed that. Harry learns the "Point Me" spell from a book instead of from a teacher.<<<< Prompting my seemingly unrelated question: How do Hogwarts students learn to Apparate if they can't do it on Hogwarts grounds? Is it akin to learning how to drive (in the US) where you can take lessons privately or through the school? I can see how students from wizard families could probably just learn from another family member, but obviously, Muggleborns and/or orphans like Harry don't have this option. Besides this, we know that students aren't allowed to do magic over the summer, so if they're at Hogwarts during the school year and forbidden from using magic during the summer... the only thing I can come up with is that they might hold classes in Hogsmeade. I'm sure it's ultimately not that important, but just something I've always been curious about. Any thoughts? ~ Aloha ===== Check out my fics at: www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Aloha_Moira/Potters_A_History http://www.thedarkarts.org/authors/amoira/AG.html (snippets reside in the Cookie Jar, filks can be found at Rhythm&Rhyme, all at www.fictionalley.org !) __________________________________________________ Yahoo! - We Remember 9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost http://dir.remember.yahoo.com/tribute From millergal8 at aol.com Thu Sep 12 02:00:55 2002 From: millergal8 at aol.com (millergal8 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 22:00:55 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hogwart's Express Space Message-ID: <14d.13d4c00e.2ab14f57@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43917 In a message dated 9/10/02 7:14:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time, the.gremlin at verizon.net writes: << Okay, if Harry and Co. need to go through the wall to get to Platform 9 3/4, wouldn't that mean that Hogwart's Express has its own magical space? And, if it does, how is it, then, that Harry and Ron were able to take a car (enchanted, but a Muggle car, nonetheless) parked in a non-magical parking lot, make it invisible and fly it upward, spot Hogwart's Express pulling out of the train station, and follow it from London? Is there some dimension or invisible line that they crossed, to get to magical space? >> Well, Diagon Alley exsists inside Muggle London and even has access to it through the Leaky Cauldron. In fact Harry first enters Diagon Alley via muggle London. My books are on loan to a friend at the moment so I cannot be 100% sure about this, but people like you and me can't see the Leaky Cauldron. Harry himself doesn't notice it until he and Hagrid are already in the doors. Now, this being said, maybe the train has some sort of spells on it that prohibit muggles from seeing it. But Harry and Ron, being student wizards -can- see it. The car however, only has a faulty invisibility button so can be seen by regular people. I think that Platform 9 3/4 is just a cover up that allows all the students to board the train w/o arising the suspicion of muggles as to why 1000 (or whatever number you believe to be at Hogwarts) kids are boarding an empty train track. Christy Hope that makes sense, has been a very stressful day and cannot wait for it to be tomorrow. From kelpi_osu at yahoo.com Wed Sep 11 20:57:43 2002 From: kelpi_osu at yahoo.com (kelpi_osu) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 20:57:43 -0000 Subject: Classes are 45 minutes (was Hogwarts: A tight schedule) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43918 In the hardback, original American edition of GoF, on page 297 it states: "Double Potions was always a horrible experience, but these days it was nothing short of torture. Being shut in a dungeon for an hour and a half with Snape and the Slytherins, all of whom seemed determined to punish Harry as much as possible for daring to become school champion . . ." (chapter 18) So, since a double class in 90 minutes, it appears that a single class is 45 minutes. I think this would be the schedule fourth year: Monday: (p. 193) Herbology with Hufflepuffs (45 minutes) Care of Magical Creatures with Slytherins(45 minutes) Lunch Double Divination (90 minutes) Dinner Tuesday: History of Magic (p. 347) Charms p. 296-297 Lunch Double Potions with Slytherins (90 minutes) Dinner Wednesday ??? Charms p. 391 Thursday: ?? Transfiguration p. 385 Lunch DADA p.210 (I think this is double because on page 232 Harry states that "as he hobbled out of the DADA class an hour later . . ." and when you add the time it took for all the students to be put under the Imperious Curse, it makes sense...) Dinner Friday: History of Magic (p. 396 indicates it's on Friday after lunch, but with double potions that isn't possible... P. 569 confirms it's Friday morning) ???? Lunch Double Potions (90 minutes) p. 235 This was the best I could do from the text. Maybe someone else caught something that I didn't. Wednesday's classes aren't really mentioned much. So, Harry and the rest of the Gryffindors and the Slytherin 4th years have 180 minutes of Potions a week. Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs must have the same, so that's 360 minutes or 6 hours of Potions for 4th years a week. If everyone has the same amount of Potions, Snape would be teaching 42 hours a week. However, in SS on page 135 it says that the Gryffindor has double potions once a week with Slytherins. So, 90 minutes a week,times 2 for Hufflepuff/Ravenclaw house equals 180 minutes or 3 hours of class a week for first years in Potions. Since we earlier estimated that it should be 6 hours a week, we subract 3 hours from our previous total. 42 hours a week-3 hours of unused time=39 hours of teaching for Snape. However, in CoS it indicates that the 2nd years had Potions twice a week with the Slytherins. So, that's 90 minutes total (b/c the lesson wasn't double)plus 90 minutes for Hufflpuff/Ravenclaw- 180 minutes or 3 hours. 39 hours a week-3 hours unused time=36 hours teaching for Snape a week. Now, in PoA it seems the third years only have Potions once a week, a double, on Thursday mornings (p 123). So, once again, that means 90 minutes for Slytherin/Gryffindor times 2 for the Hufflepuff/Ravenclaw double Potions=180 minutes a week, or 3 hours. 36 hours a week-3 hours of unused time=33 hours a week. 33 hours of teaching doesn't seem that bad, but once again we only know the schedule based on years 1-4. Older students may have Potions more or less than this. However, if years 5-7 have potions the same amount of time (6 hours a week per level) then Snape would be teaching 33 hours a week. Hope this helps! Let me know if I messed up somewhere. Kelpi ps All the texts referenced are American hardback editions. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Sep 12 03:45:42 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 03:45:42 -0000 Subject: Ron: GoF: Betrayed or Jealous? Revisited. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43919 Thanks to everyone who replied. At least now, I know that I'm not alone in thinking this, and it was nice that even the people who disagreed with me, acknowledge that there was some element of betrayal. The people who spoke of a combination of betrayal and jealousy (michelle_rave, bugaloo37) stimulated a new line of thought. =Internal & External= Hermione's conclusion- Hermione seemed pretty set and sure in her conclusion that Ron was jealous. Of course, we all know, with out a doubt, that Ron is jealous in general, but let's keep our focus on this one event and this one point in time. Hermione's conclusion came right after breakfast where we assume she had breakfast and a conversation with Ron. Being a *boy* and not talking about his inner feelings, I seriously doubt that Ron said the words 'I' or 'ME' very many times in that conversation with Hermione. Knowing how boys are, I can't hear Ron saying thinks like 'how could Harry do this without ME?', 'I thought I was his best friend', 'How could he betray ME like this?'. My guess is that the whole conversation was made up of statements about Harry, containing little or no 'I' or 'me'. 'Harry has all the luck', 'Harry has all the fun', 'Like Harry really needs another thousand galleons', 'Harry gets all the glory', 'Harry doesn't have to take exams', blah, blah, blah, Harry this and Harry that. I believe that the whole conversation was made up of statements by Ron that could lead to no other conclusion than Ron was jealous. But that doesn't mean that jealousy was at the heart of it, only that jealousy and anger were the expression of what was at the heart. The wound, the pain, in my opinion, were all inflicted by his perceived betrayal, but Ron isn't going to talk about his deep emotional wound, so externally it is expressed as statements of jealously and anger. So, we have my theory of internal emotions and external expression. Internally, Ron is wounded by betrayal, but the only way he can comfortable express this, is through external statements of jealousy. And, again, I have to emphasize that, of course, Ron is jealous. Not just expressing it, but feeling it too. How could he not be? Even I'm jealous. But the wound that's cut the deepest, that aches the most is the wound of betrayal. Still just saying what I said before, so this is nothing new, but I thought the internal/external idea added a nice twist. Thanks to all for the replies. Just a few more thoughts. bboy_mn From eloiseherisson at aol.com Thu Sep 12 05:56:53 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 01:56:53 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Can't Hagrid Do Magic? Message-ID: <31.2cd8438d.2ab186a5@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43920 Bboy-mn: > > First, as Animagi_Raven pointed out, Hagrid's alleged crime was not > minor. Someone suggested it was comparable to a misdemeanor or gross > misdemeanor, however, Hagrid's alleged actions resulted in injury to > several students and the death of one, so this was more along the line > of gross negligence, criminal negligence or even homicidal negligence. > Legally those may not be the right terms but they are still sufficient > to make my point. Hagrid was accused of a felon in connection with the > death of a student. > Eloise: OK, it was me who used the word 'misdemeanour', qualified by the word 'major'. We have a translation issue here, I feel! ;-) I should make it clear, a) that I wasn't using it in *any* legal sense and that, b) English doesn't law in any case have a distinction between misdemeanour and felony as I believe US law does (not that I claim any knowlege of the American legal system). There *used* to be a distinction until 1967 in Eng land and Wales (but not in Scotland). We don't use the words felon or felony much in everyday speech, although it wouldn't be inaccurate: in British English, it just has an archaic (or alternatively American) feel to it. In other words, I think you read an implication that Hagrid's 'crime' wasn't serious which wasn't intended. Bboy-mn: >In addition to all this, as Animagi_Raven pointed out, there is the >one glaring inconsistency in the events that took place, and that is, >the students turned to stone. Giant spiders are certainly dangerous >and could easily kill people, but they don't petrify them (to my >knowledge). LOON point. Although the students attacked in CoS are described as 'petrified', I don't think they are turned to stone. Otherwise it would have been quite obvious and the trio and Filch would have found a stone cat, instead of simply thinking Mrs Norris was dead and needing Dumbledore's diagnosis of petrification. I have been looking for references to attacks and petrifications the first time the Chamber was opened, but I can't find them. Where they are? Myrtle is the only victim I can remember, but then my memory is notoriously bad. Animagi_Raven actually said: >The student death [singular] was probably blamed >on the spider (but how did a spider turn someone to stone?) Well, Myrtle was just *dead*, not turned to stone, just as Mrs Norris, Hermione and the other attacked students were inanimate, but *not* literally turned to stone. Eloise Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eloiseherisson at aol.com Thu Sep 12 08:44:08 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 04:44:08 EDT Subject: Changes in UK Adult Version of PoA/Hairy chins Message-ID: <18c.dec5ffc.2ab1add8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43921 Phyllis: > Perhaps Eloise or someone with a first edition UK paperback can tell > us whether the change from "gold" to "silver" is a new change, or > whether it was corrected earlier on. > > Delighted! All the changes that you noted in the British 'adult' edition are just the same in my older paperback, which is dated simply 1999. The page nos are the same, too, so I guess they are the same edition, just with different covers. I'm not sure exactly when I bought mine. This lack of proper publishing data (which impression, etc) in the front of the books is very frustrating. Anyone got the hardback? This 'hairy chin' thing has me totally baffled, though, as your UK 'adult' paperback, my 'standard' UK paperback and, presumably the UK hardback (David?) all say harelip, yet Kristi has a UK paperback with the variant reading. Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Sep 12 09:23:07 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 09:23:07 -0000 Subject: Why Can't Hagrid Do Magic? In-Reply-To: <31.2cd8438d.2ab186a5@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43922 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., eloiseherisson at a... wrote: > Bboy-mn: > > > > ..snip... Hagrid's alleged crime was not minor. Someone suggested > > it was comparable to a misdemeanor or gross misdemeanor, > > ...snip... Hagrid was accused of a felon in connection with > > the death of a student. >-end- bboy_mn - this section > > Eloise: > ...snip... > b) English doesn't law in any case have a distinction between > misdemeanour and felony > ...snip...snip...snip... > In other words, I think you read an implication that Hagrid's > 'crime' wasn't serious which wasn't intended. -end- Eloise - this section bboy_mn relpies: Yes, that is how I read it and most American would probably have similar read, however, I was trying to discredit your post, I simply wanted to re-enforce that this crime that resulted in a death, so it was a very serious crime. Broken wand and forbidden to use magic are very benevolent punishments for a crime that resulted in death. > > Bboy-mn quoting Animagi_Raven: > >..snip... there is the one glaring inconsistency in the events that took place, and that is, the students turned to stone. ..snip... > > LOON point. Although the students attacked in CoS are described as > 'petrified', I don't think they are turned to stone. -end- Eloise - this section bboy_mn responds: Well OK, not stone but stone-like. It was a figure of speech not an absolute statement of fact. But you are correct, the didn't literally turn to stone. -end- bboy_mn this section Eloise continues: > > Animagi_Raven actually said: > >The student death [singular] was probably blamed > >on the spider (but how did a spider turn someone to stone?) > > [to which Eloise replied] > Well, Myrtle was just *dead*, not turned to stone, ..snip... > > Eloise bboy_mn responds: I'll let Animagi_Raven speak for himself, but I think the part above in parenthesis is meant to be a separate statement. More alone the line of 'The student's death was probably blamed on the spider, but how did a spider turn the other students into a stone-like state?' The point being that spiders kill people but they aren't known to petrify them, so how could the spider have done it? Sorry, if I created a misunderstanding. bboy_mn From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Thu Sep 12 09:28:47 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 09:28:47 -0000 Subject: Learning to apparate In-Reply-To: <20020911233746.8762.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43923 > How do Hogwarts students learn to Apparate if they > can't do it on Hogwarts grounds? Is it akin to > learning how to drive (in the US) where you can take > lessons privately or through the school? I can see how > students from wizard families could probably just > learn from another family member, but obviously, > Muggleborns and/or orphans like Harry don't have this > option. Besides this, we know that students aren't > allowed to do magic over the summer, so if they're at > Hogwarts during the school year and forbidden from > using magic during the summer... the only thing I can > come up with is that they might hold classes in > Hogsmeade. I'm sure it's ultimately not that > important, but just something I've always been curious > about. Any thoughts? > > ~ Aloha IMO, apparating, like animagus transformation, can only be (legally) learned once you're officially an adult and yet only in especial schools habilitated by the MoM. Since both forms of magic require an official permit of the ministry, it stands to reason that they keep a close vigilance on the procedures. Like learning to drive, they first give you theoric and prctical classes, and at the end you demonstrate your capabilities by passing an exam, in case of apparating, and by transforming into your animal (which is then carefully observed and it's characteristics jotted down in a document) in case of the nimagus transformation. I don't think they teach this sort of thing at Hogwarts: if it was compulsory, or even optional, there would be many more people learning it than there actually are. Remember, there have been very few oficial animagi in the last century, which indictes that no-one is willing to go through the training officially, and notice that Percy didn't learn to apparate until the summer after his last year at Hogwarts. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Thu Sep 12 09:39:25 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 09:39:25 -0000 Subject: Gringotts vaults (was;various) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43924 Steve (bboy_mn) wrote: > All that can be concluded from the proximity of vault 711 and vault > 713 is that they are both Very High Security Vaults. The secondary > conclusion is that Sirius is either extremely rich or has something > very valuable that he needs to protect. > > Of course, that's just my opinion. > > bboy_mn I don't think that the number proximity between the vault numbers actually correspoind to the same type of vault. Nothing in canon indicates that Sirius' vault is a high-security one, and it really shouldn't be necesary -as far as we know, he is not guarding something vitally important inside. Also, about the only thing that can be deduced about the goblins, apart that they're short and have a bank, is what can be observed in FB about their acts during the MoM reunions to decide between beings and beasts. In those times, goblins took delight in interrupting the procedures as much as possible, fomenting chaos and generally disrupting any tries to bring the place to order (I especially liked their idea of teaching phrases to the trolls so that they could qualify as beings instead of beasts). A race that takes such delight in tormenting other beings wouldn't act rationally, which means that any person trying to find any sort of logic in the placement of vaults in Gringotts Bank probably would end up mad, or at least *very* confused. As I said earlier, a very good way to protect a vault is by making sure that even *finding* it is very difficult. And, since the carts already know where they have to go, there is no confussion for those people legally visiting the bank. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From jtdogberry at hotmail.com Thu Sep 12 09:39:24 2002 From: jtdogberry at hotmail.com (jtdogberry) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 09:39:24 -0000 Subject: Neville, the sorting hat, and N.I.N.E In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43925 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Susan Miller" wrote: > Dogberry wondered: > > > Er, I'm not sure why Neville would be under the imperious curse, > > maybe I missed that conversation when I was away, I havn't caught > up > > yet, but could someone explain that one to me. > > ~ Constance Vigilance wrote > That came about because I posted (on the OT-chatter board) a rumor > that was started by someone who claims to work at Scholastic and has > already read a version of the next book. He claims that when Fake! > Moody put Neville under the Imperious curse during class, that the > curse was never lifted, and that Neville is now available to be made > to do evil things. > > I'd better quit now, or this message will get nuked by the list- elves. > Dogberry Sorry if this is in the wrong place, I wasn't sure where to put it. Hmm, I'm not convienced. The same things could be explained by Neville being under a memory charm/ unwilling to do magic. The person states that strange things will happen but I suspect that Neville is under the imperious curse is a theory to explain it. I'm still of the opion that he reconised "Moody" and it and put his hand up in a way of warning "I know who you are but I can't prove it", Moody then reminds him what will happen if he tells, Neville was clearly terrified of him after the lesson and tried to get the others to help him, that wouldn't happen if he was under the imperious curse. Neville being a coward stays quiet. He has had the whole summer to consider what his cowardice has done and that will cause the change. Which brings me back to the sorting hat, it could also be that the hat may have some sight into the future and can see a turning point in their lives where it is nessercary, and the outcome of this point decides where they go. This could explain the conversation Harry had with the sorting hat. The hat was tempting Harry, seeing if Volides influence was stronger then his own personality. Since Harry would have to prove his courage later on that year, the hat wouldn't take as long with him as it did with Neville. However, this doesn't explain Seamus, or does it? TTFN Dogberry From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Thu Sep 12 09:45:04 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 09:45:04 -0000 Subject: Harry Can Hold Both A Wand And Another Object (WAS: Harry's wands) In-Reply-To: <011d01c259e4$f1044680$7a9dcdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43926 Richelle Votaw wrote: > I will say that I didn't think of the possiblity someone (sorry, > sorry,can't remember!) mentioned that as a Quidditch player Harry's > reflexes are extremely fast and the wand could even have gone into > his pocket while in transit through the portkey, if you can move at > the time. I've never used one, wouldn't know. :) > > Richelle That was me, but you misunderstood my suggestion: I said that a possibility was that Harry had accioned the cup and while *the cup* was flying towards him, he put the wand away to have the hand free to catch the cup. I still prefer the other possibility (Harry simply had the wand all along but forgot about it - I tend to forget I'm wearing my glasses, and they're closer to my eyes!), but this one should work. The only problem I see with it is that it is possible that the wand must be kept pointing towards the accio object all the way, but I somehow doubt it: not all objects are easily catched with a hand full of wand, so I think that the "accio" spell is more of a "launch and forget" kind: oncce you've used it, you can use the wand for other purposes, and if the object is far away, you've got enough time to put the wand away. In the Graveyard Gathering, the cup *wasn't* very far away, which is why I suggested that Harry's hand-reflexes were fast enough to put the wand away while the *cup* was being accioed. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Thu Sep 12 10:03:18 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 10:03:18 -0000 Subject: Werewolves/ Lupin etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43927 Michelle wrote: > So put this all together: > - Prematurely grey > -looks extremely ill after full moon > -wolfsbane potion could be mildly poisonous. > > I was wondering (I've got there in the end!!) if being a werewolf > reduces your life expectancy > > Michelle Being a werewolf *definetely* reduces you're life expectancy: since it is the average age at which people die, werewolves probably have a lower one than general wizard population: after all, many are *hunted* and killed by fearful wizards. There is a ver apropiate proverb in my language which may or may not translate: "Once the dog is dead, the rabid is no more" which exposes how lots of people think about that sort of thing. Of course, you are asking if werewolves die of natural causes sooner than wizards. Of the conditions you've explained up there (great canon, by the way!), one of them: the wolfbane potion effects, are unknown to everyone: not just us, but to the wiards too, since it's very recent and any long-term secondary effects are yet unknown. On the other hand, the other effects, especially the greying hair, are hard evidence: Lupin *does* seem to be aging prematurely. Of course, we cannot really make a general case or estadistic out of a single case (I know lots of people who grey prematurely for non-werewolf-related reasons), so we cannot discard that it's just that he's plain unlucky. What IS true is that the transformation leaves him sickly, and that so does the potion. It is not a long stretch to imagine that the sort of stress he goes through every month is what is actually greying him. Lupin is someone who has gone through a lot of suffering in his life, and that is the sort of thing that ages prematurely. However, even though being a werewolf is one of the reaosns, it is not the only one. He lost his three best (only?) friends in a space of 24 hours. He has never been able to find a job. Everyone hates him and fears him because of his sickness. And of course, he transforms into a man-eating beast every four weeks. All of this *does* pile up after a while, so, even though it may be the transformation what is aging him, it may also be something wider. > (sorry if its in FB but I haven't got a copy - I must invest in > one...) I heartly recommend you to invest in one: is not really very expensive, and it's for a good cause. Besides, if you want to be aspire to be part of LOON (League Of Obsesive Nit-pickers), like most members in this list, you're going to need it. However, in this case it wouldn't have helped: there is quite a bit of useful information about werewolves in FB, but nothing about their life-expectancy. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Thu Sep 12 10:09:33 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 10:09:33 -0000 Subject: Why Can't Hagrid Do Magic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43928 Steve (bboy_mn) wrote: > The point being that spiders kill people but they aren't known to > petrify them, so how could the spider have done it [the > petrifications done by the basilisk] ? > > Sorry, if I created a misunderstanding. > > bboy_mn I have to point out that many spiders, especially in fantasy worlds, do in fact have several types of venon available to them (really always the same, but used in different quantities). The most obvious one is She-lob form LotR, but there are many more. These spiders can inject enough amount of venon to paralize indefinetely the victim without actually killing it, so if the victim is not actually *stoned* (which no spider that I know can do), it is reasonable to imagine that it could have been the handiwork of a spider. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From deejay435 at buckeye-express.com Thu Sep 12 03:13:26 2002 From: deejay435 at buckeye-express.com (Denise Jurski) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 23:13:26 -0400 Subject: Quirrel's teaching...Dumbledore's aging process References: <1031750987.2328.71154.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <004901c25a0a$5c7c0680$6501a8c0@buckeyecablesystem.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43929 Constance said: >We just don't have much evidence on how his classes were >run to come to a conclusion, hence, I assume that his skills and >passion did not dissipate when he went corrupt. >Oh, yeah, he was out to destroy the world in the name of the dark >master, but that's only incidental to my point. All of which makes a lot of sense. I'm with you that Quirrel could have been a good DADA teacher before his Voldy-years. But as to if he continued to teach as well after, I'm left wondering this: What would be his motivation for teaching DADA well, after his Voldification? He'd have to teach it passably, at least, to remain at Hogwarts and keep his cover. But I'd say he has a lot of motivation to be a poor teacher. After all, the more students who are good at defending against the dark arts, the higher the danger to Voldy and the Death Eaters. One of Quirrel's students might just be the next super-auror who gets his start under his tutelage. Best to keep them less well informed, for his boss anyway. Jeff asked: >Or is he? In the Legends of King Arthur, the wizard Merlin knows a >lot about what is going to happen too. Why? Because he lives >backwards. He experiences his old age first and then the rest of his >life, getting younger as he goes. Could Dumbledore be doing the same >thing? You know, I've always been a little creeped out by the whole living your life backward thing. I'm reading a new Peter David novel where Merlin is now about 8. Anyway, that's neither here nore not here. ;-) As for Dumbledore aging backward...we have the memories in CoS that show him younger, 50 years ago. Didn't the Professor Dumbledore that spoke to Tom in his diary have auburn hair? Wasn't he described as a younger version of the headmaster? What about during the glimpses Harry got into the pensieve? I don't recall if Harry saw him then. Denise From aaoconnor2002 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 12 03:39:33 2002 From: aaoconnor2002 at yahoo.com (aaoconnor2002) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 03:39:33 -0000 Subject: Mummies and rats and eyeballs. Oh my! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43930 Cough, cough. Excuse me but the archives are sort of dusty. I've just spent some time there trying to see if there has been any discussion on something that struck me as I was re-reading PoA last night. (What's that? No, I didn't even need a bandaid. It didn't strike me that hard, but thanks for asking.) There have been many threads on boggarts and their abilities but what I am curious about now are the specific forms that the boggart took when confronted by the DADA class. They were: 1) Professor Snape who ended up in Granny Longbottom's dress and hat 2) A mummy that fell over and lost its head 3) A banshee that lost her voice 4) A rat that chased its tail in a circle 5) A rattlesnake 6) A single, bloody eyeball 7) A severed hand that gets trapped in a mousetrap 8) A giant spider that loses its legs 9) A full moon 10) A cockroach Knowing all the foreshadowing that goes on in the Potterverse chronicles I wondered where these seemingly small details could take us. I seriously doubt that Snape will actually, at any point, end up in a dress. I think that will be left for the fanfiction writers. We already know of Ron's aversion to spiders and Lupin's problems with the moon so what does that leave us? A rat that goes around in circles. When you go around in circles it's hard to know which side you're on. Anybody else see Pettigrew? A single, bloody eyeball screams "Mad-Eye Moody" after you've read GoF. A mummy that loses its head. The only connection we seem to have with mummies is the fact that Bill Weasley works in Egypt. I hope this isn't a sign of Bill's future. A banshee that loses its voice. Isn't hearing a banshee another death omen? Since it loses its voice could that mean that someone we thought would die won't? A rattlesnake. I don't have a thought on this one since snakes are all over the place in these stories. Anybody else have any thoughts? A severed hand in a mousetrap. Here's hoping that having Pettigrews severed hand as part of his rebirth will backfire and trap Voldemort somehow. A cockroach. If the house elves go on strike could an infestation be far behind? (OK, give me a break it's been a long day and I know I'm just being silly.) Anyway, just thought I would throw out this lengthy (sorry) rant and see if anybody else had any thoughts. Audrey (who really hopes that the only traumatic thing that happens to Bill Weasley's head is a haircut, but not too short mind you!) From naama2486 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 12 07:24:55 2002 From: naama2486 at yahoo.com (naama2486) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 07:24:55 -0000 Subject: A "Harey" Problem, WAS: Re: Newer UK Edition of CoS Has Three Changes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43931 Haggridd wrote: > A "harelip" is a cleft lip, which is a birth defect that can range > from a mild split in the upper lip to a severe cleft palate. It is > reparable by surgery-- in the WW by magic as well, no doubt. I know what a harelip is :-). On the same contex, wouldn't a simple razor solve a "hairy chin" problem? > I fear that this is a case of misplaced sensitivity on the part of > the American Editors. One can visualize a harelip without having any > desire to ridicule or persecute people with cleft palates. Why > censor this? Rather than rob the language of any umpleasant images > out of misguided paternalism (or maternalism-- musn't offend any > gender!) why not look at it as an opportunity for parents to explain > what it is in a sensisitve manner, so that when the child reader > actually encounters someone with the defect, they will be prepared to > react without shock or surprise? I agree. On the other hand, a "hairy chin" is a much lamer excuse than a hare lip and is very Lockhart-ish ;-) When I first read HP (UK editions) it was from library books, that were old editions. My own copies (UK editions as well) are newer, which is why the change annoyed me so much (apart from the unnecessary change of PS's cover). Of the changes Phyllis wrote about (I hope I got the name right) I didn't know at all, and they annoyed me even more. Personally I can't see what's wrong with printing the *same* text in different editions, nor the need of changing or dropping whole paragraphs. Lucky there's HPfGU! ;-) Naama the New, who still likes to read UK editioned HP From mysmacek at yahoo.com Thu Sep 12 08:16:28 2002 From: mysmacek at yahoo.com (mysmacek) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 08:16:28 -0000 Subject: Harry and Quidditch Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43932 Hi all, as a new hint for the discussion about importance of Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw, I have realized an interesting thing: The only quidditch match we *know* Harry has seen is the one on Quidditch World Cup. I did not consult the books, so I am not 100% sure, but AFAIK there's never a hint that he watched other houses' matches. Mysmacek From eloiseherisson at aol.com Thu Sep 12 11:38:07 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 07:38:07 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Can't Hagrid Do Magic? Message-ID: <37.2d3882ba.2ab1d69f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43933 Regarding my use of misdemeanour: > bboy_mn relpies: > Yes, that is how I read it and most American would probably have > similar read, however, I was trying to discredit your post, I simply > wanted to re-enforce that this crime that resulted in a death, so it > was a very serious crime. Is that *was* or *wasn't* trying to discredit? ;-) > > Broken wand and forbidden to use magic are very benevolent punishments > for a crime that resulted in death. Well, I sort of agree and disagree. For the WW, certainly this is true. But I think it might depend on whether it was believed that Hagrid was deliberately setting his Acromantula on people or that he was just foolish enough not to realise that it was dangerous. People kill other people under all sorts of different circumstances and receive widely varying punishments. At least, they do here. I personally don't think there is anything particularly benevolent in forbidding someone who can only live in the WW form using magic. I've often tried to imagine what it would be like living in the WW as a Muggle and I think it would be incredibly hard. You would be reduced to using essentially medieval technology in a society where everyone else had magical means doing things, or leaving to live life as a Muggle. It must be terribly obvious that you're not allowed to (or can't do - poor Squibs) magic. You don't snap your fingers, or get out your wand to light a fire, but start messing around with a tinder box. Like going around in a convict suit, really. > Bboy_mn > <>Eloise continues: > > > > Animagi_Raven actually said: > > >The student death [singular] was probably blamed > > >on the spider (but how did a spider turn someone to stone?) > > > > [to which Eloise replied] > > Well, Myrtle was just *dead*, not turned to stone, ..snip... > > > > Eloise > > bboy_mn responds: > I'll let Animagi_Raven speak for himself, but I think the part above > in parenthesis is meant to be a separate statement. More alone the > line of 'The student's death was probably blamed on the spider, but > how did a spider turn the other students into a stone-like state?' The > point being that spiders kill people but they aren't known to petrify > them, so how could the spider have done it? > Eloise: The thing that I'm not sure I'm understanding, is who the other students to whom you refer are. Were other students petrified the first time, as wel as Myrtle dying? If so, I agree, there is potentially a problem. Or are you referring to the students petrified during CoS? As far as the MOM was concerned, Hagrid was associated with the previous occasion on which the Chamber was allegedly opened and therefore is suspect again. Since it is far from clear whether the story of the opening of the Chamber and the existence of the monster of Slytherin was believed in the first place (remember Binns' insistence that it is pure legend) and Hagrid is associated with all manner of creatures, I don't think that was totally unreasonable (from the MOM's POV) to think that he might have been letting something diffferent roam around this time. You see, whether the legend was believed or not and despite Tom Riddle's implication that it was, I don't think Hagrid *can* have been believed to have been the Heir of Slytherin, opener of the Chamber, controller of the Monster and a deliberate murderer. Surely even Dumbledore couldn't have saved him from the consequences of that, which surely would have been much greater than expulsion and wand-snapping. This, of course ties in with what we were discussing above about whether the punishment was lenient or not. So if he was only thought to have let one of his 'pets' loose, I don't think it's necessary for him to have been believed to have let the *same* creature loose the second time round. Grey Wolf has pointed out that spiders (some, at least) do paralyse their prey. This is true, although I think Dumbledore, in all his wisdom and experience, would have recognised the difference between that and petrification. Don't ask me how. I don't know how he diagnosed petrification in the first place. Eloise Having difficulty getting her thoughts straight. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From wmginnypowell at msn.com Thu Sep 12 13:45:13 2002 From: wmginnypowell at msn.com (Ginny Powell) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:45:13 -0000 Subject: Gringotts vaults In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43934 It occurs to me that there might be a good reason why the "#711" reference was removed: to avoid just this sort of speculation on our part. I'm imagining JK writing along, coming to Sirius' note and making up a random number for his vault, not realizing it was so close to the Stone vault referenced earlier. Maybe she just likes 7s; lots of people do. When she eventually realized or had pointed out to her how close the numbers were, it was removed rather than having another number substituted, another number perhaps leading to speculation along some other line. Just IMHO, of course, but it does provide a possible reason for the change when no other has been provided. Ginny, whose name, by the way, IS from Virginia (oh, no, am I evil?!) From midgiecat at aol.com Thu Sep 12 14:25:28 2002 From: midgiecat at aol.com (midgiecat at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 10:25:28 EDT Subject: What to adult wizards do?? Message-ID: <13.116780df.2ab1fdd8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43935 Re: What do adult wizards do??? This may have been discussed before, but I am always wondering....... We have read that Mr. Weasley works at the MOM, as well as Barty Crouch, also Percy W. and Cornelius Fudge, and the many who were mentioned at the time of the TriWizard Cup as working for various departments of the MOM. Then there was Bertha Jorkins, etc. etc. We know that many are teachers, either at Hogwarts or other schools of witchcraft and wizardry. We are aware of the many wizards and witches that own shops in Hogsmeade, or Diagon Alley, or Nocturne Alley. Or who drive the Night Bus. What do the others do for a living? I don't know what Lucius Malfoy does. He seems to be very well-financed as evidenced by his large home, his house elf, his ability to buy racing brooms for the quidditch team. What did the parents of James Potter do to leave him so much money? It's fine to say he inherited money, but where did it come from originally? Is there a wizard stock market? Do wizards own other real estate other than their own homes for rentals? If they trade only in wizard money, to make money from others one would have to perform a service of some kind, right? So, again I was wondering......what do wizards like Lucius Malfoy, or the families of other Hogwarts students, do to earn wizard money? Brenda W. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From iwant12 at hotmail.com Thu Sep 12 14:05:35 2002 From: iwant12 at hotmail.com (fruhu) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 14:05:35 -0000 Subject: Crouch Jr. and Hogwarts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43936 Does anyone know if Crouch Jr. went to Hogwarts? /FruHuu From ffionmiles at hotmail.com Thu Sep 12 15:31:12 2002 From: ffionmiles at hotmail.com (ffimiles) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 15:31:12 -0000 Subject: Harry Can Hold Both A Wand And Another Object (WAS: Harry's wands) In-Reply-To: <011d01c259e4$f1044680$7a9dcdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43937 As regards the wand and cup holding - remember, you only need to touch a portkey with a finger - you stick to it, as they all were when touching to old wellington boot to get to the Quidditch World Cup - so Harry needn't've fully grasped the cup'shandle... Another, thoroughly petty thing - he lands on the Quidditch pitch after the cup (portkey) brings him back to Hogwarts - face down, Cderic's wrist in one hand, cup in the other - and Dumbledore manages to turn him over -e ven though he doesn't elt go of Cedric - wouldn't his arms get totallyt wisted? As ever though, I feel disrespectful picking JKR up on such things - she can't think everything through i suppose - though this 5th book is taking so long, I expect everything to be chronologically and physically possible!!! Ffi From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Thu Sep 12 15:57:03 2002 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 15:57:03 -0000 Subject: Fantastic Beasts (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43938 Fantastic Beasts (to the theme from Tiny Toons) Hear the original at: http://www.angel-hare.com/acorn/tta Dedicated to Jenny of Ravenclaw THE SCENE: An unplottable location. Enter a CHORUS of FANTASTIC BEASTS ? at least one specimen of all the critters described in Newt Scamander's classic text CHORUS We're deadly, we're drastic, we're not yet sold in plastic And we're so fantastic, a magic menagerie! We'll give you hardcore wrecks, if we have five or four "X" We'll tell you how to find us, though you may find you're sorry! The Min'stry of Magic, here's a statement it released: "Some we're seeing we'll call beings, `n' others we'll call beasts" Our powers are super! We sing songs sung by Fwoopers! Here comes the Erumpent, sirs! - fears should be increased! It's Re' em (a large ox, it's Lobalugs and Porlocks The Quintapeds all quarrel, Chizpurfles have such fangs There's Griffins and Graphorns, and Dragons we call Longhorns, Red Caps catch kappas and Jarveys all harangue! We offer sans apology this magizoology Newt Scamander's our commander since 1923 We gave him a few hex, he gave us five to two "X" We're FANTASTIC BEASTS like Centaurs, Crups & Bundimuns! Let's ev'ry Muggle shun! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm (newly updated today with 30 new filks) From mi_shell16 at hotmail.com Thu Sep 12 09:15:39 2002 From: mi_shell16 at hotmail.com (theresnothingtoit) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 09:15:39 -0000 Subject: Some more predictions... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43939 Yes, yes I know I am a little late when all the predictions were posted up earlier this month but I think my computer will only work when it is sunny, it is very particular. So anyway on with the predictions: Predictions: A proper magical duel between Severus "looks like he's on our side now" Snape and Sirius "I always knew he was evil" Black. Preferably in the main hall, up and down one of the house tables, with the whole school watching. Severus Snape uttering the words "the only girl I ever wanted was the only girl I could never have" (everyone get their LOLLIPOPS at the ready) Someone openly bursts into tears and we finally get to see some heart breaking, gut wrenching violent and horrifying grief - my money is on Snape, that pale face is crying out (excuse the pun) for some red puffy eyes. James turns out not to be the saint everyone thought he was and actually use the invisibility clock to sneak into the girl's locker room. Deaths: Voldemort, Dumbledore and Harry: Voldemort because he is evil, Dumbledor because he is good and Harry because unfortunately he is Harry Potter, symbol of hope. Harry, Sirius and Peter: (Harry representing James) to parallel Remus's loss of the first defeat of Voldemort. Fortunately Snape will be alive, redeemed and now at least not paranoid about Lupins problem once a month. Definite survivors: Severus - stills bitter, still teaching, still hating everyone (but redeemed) Ron and Hermione - very much in love but grieving for Harry Lucius - penniless (hurrah!) Arthur - Minister of Magic but still collecting plugs and batteries I doubt there will be a blood bath like the end of Hamlet, where almost everyone who had more than two lines dies, but we will see more death of more of the good side. I am afraid I cannot guarantee the survival of anyone else, especially not the Weaslys and especially not George (sorry George fans). Theresnothingtoit (just like predicting future Ever So Evil characters, is there any character that has not had the ESE treatment from this board?) From mi_shell16 at hotmail.com Thu Sep 12 13:25:07 2002 From: mi_shell16 at hotmail.com (theresnothingtoit) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:25:07 -0000 Subject: Paralleling the past and the present Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43940 When paralleling the HRH era to the one of MWPP it is always assumed in the dynamic that Harry represents James, Ron is Sirius, Hermione is Remus, Neville is Peter and Draco is Severus. But I have a problem with some of these connections, especially the last two. Paralleling Peter with Neville is easy and obvious as it seems there powers and how the teachers view them are the same however Neville is not really part of the trio and if Ron or Hermione were a werewolf then I can hardly see Harry asking Neville to join then in a little illegal animagi magic. Also Neville happens to have a backbone, even though he doesn't show it much it is there, and Peter clearly does not. I prefer to parallel Neville with Remus. Both probably terrified of going to Hogwarts and latching on to the first person that shows them kindness, Sirius or James for Remus and Hermione for Neville. And, now here's where I like my theory, both Remus and Neville bring with them to Hogwarts a terrifically bangy secret that they will go to any lengths to hide. As for Draco and Severus again the obvious difference is several bones connected in a line handily called a spine i.e. Severus has one and Draco does not. I prefer the image that Draco's past parallel is Peter. Draco, like Peter, likes powerful friends. The first time we meet him he try's to find out who Harry is and if he would make a powerful friend, when he discovers who Harry is he again offers the hand of friendship but is rebuffed. Draco, again like Peter, will only act if there is something in it for him, the power over others - especially Hagrid. I can see Draco having no problem in selling his own mother up the creak to further his advance to power. ("That's my boy," says Lucius.) Severus's parallel in the present time line is, well now - let me finish before you start to flame me, Ron. Quiet at the back there, and let me explain how this works. Picture the first day of school for MWPP and everyone is aboard the Hogwarts Express. Now Severus knows that the Potters are powerful wizards (probably more powerful than the line of Snape) and James has heard of the Snapes, but neither knows anything more conclusive than they are both pure blood. So Severus enters James's train compartment begins that first uncomfortable "I've heard of your family..." conversation. Just like Ron who probably was thinking before he went into Harry's compartment, "gosh, the famous Harry Potter, I wonder if he'll be my friend, how cool would that be." So the two boys are getting on OK, not like a house on fire but not at each other's throats. Then along comes he-of-little-backbone, Peter. Peter knows Snapes family intimately as does Snape his. They both dislike each other, an incident over a flubber worm but we won't go into that here. Peter begins to remark on all the bad points of Snape, the way he knows more curses than most of seventh year, any bad scandals his family were involved in etc. James doesn't know how to react but Severus quickly whips out his wand and curses Peter. James is horrified and manages to take the curse off Peter. Now here is where history will not repeat itself, it is now Severus who leaves and James who shakes Peters hand in the past, rather than Draco who leaves binding Harry and Ron closer together with a common enemy. Also, don't forget the jealousy that both Ron and Severus suffer towards Harry and James. Because Ron and Harry are friends I think Ron finds it easier to deal with the fact that Harry is not only rich but has a greater natural talent for magic. Severus and James however were almost friend and it probably killed Severus to work really hard in class and still come second best to two boys who never seemed to work at all, James and Sirius. I think Severus was jealouse of James's ability to fly even though that was never the main issue just like I think Ron is also jealous of Harry's ability to fly without as much practice as Ron got as a young child. I parallel Sirius with Hermione. Not because of their temper or hatred of Severus/Draco but of the Prank. I believe that that was no snap in the heat of an argument to Severus about how he could follow Remus to the Shrieking Shack. It was a carefully thought out plan to get Severus bitten, oh, wait a minute there is an acronym for this somewhere, lets see... yes: "STATICSCAP", "Sirius's Trick Aimed to Instruct Callous Snape about Prejudice". Brains, that's the parallel, brains and bravery and not being above breaking the school rules by doing something highly dangerous, Polyjuice/Animagi, to help others. Now for all you shiper out there let Hermione represent Lily in the past and it becomes even more clear. Ron has a crush on Hermione; Severus has a crush on Lily. Severus never tells Lily and James gets the girl, however being in the same house Ron is free to act on his feelings for Hermione and I know how many shipers are out there for a Harry/Hermione romance. So if you combine all the time lines and show how things worked out in the past you come to an interesting conclusion. James gets the girl in past while Severus festers in his never ending jealousy, compare that to Harry getting the girl if he had accepted Dracos handshake and Ron never forgiving himself if a Slytherin got the girl he had been lusting after. But Harry did not accept Draco's hand when offered so history will not repeat itsef and Ron should get the girl. Hmm, could I have just offered a solution to not only R/H and H/H (represented by James and Lily) shipers but also to LOLLIPOPS and those rather strange shippers who prefer Severus/Hermione (representing Lily) romances. Yes I can see a beautiful relationship if only he was not over twice her age and her teacher! Ewww! Before I go I would like to apologise if the above made absolutely no sense, I am rather tired. Theresnothingtoit (Who wants Dumbledors eyes to twinkle kindly less and for Severus's eyes to glitter strangle more!) From lupinesque at yahoo.com Thu Sep 12 16:29:16 2002 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 16:29:16 -0000 Subject: Classes are 45 minutes (was Hogwarts: A tight schedule) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43941 kelpi_osu wrote: > In the hardback, original American edition of GoF, on page 297 it > states: > > "Double Potions was always a horrible experience, but these days it > was nothing short of torture. Being shut in a dungeon for an hour > and a half with Snape and the Slytherins, all of whom seemed > determined to punish Harry as much as possible for daring to become > school champion . . ." (chapter 18) Welcome to LOON, Kelpi! This kind of attention to detail, not to mention caring enough about it to write a long post, is the fast track into the League of Obsessed Nitpickers. Congratulations! or do I mean condolences? Sorry, Grey Wolf, I did see your request about class length, but have been too busy for this level of research. But look, Kelpi took it up for us! I got almost the same fourth-year schedule (http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/ -- you must see the beautiful new home page, then click on "Wizarding through the Ages," which includes timelines of each school year), with these minor differences: > Tuesday: > History of Magic (p. 347) > Charms p. 296-297 > Lunch > Double Potions with Slytherins (90 minutes) > Dinner I don't recall evidence that Charms is on Tuesday, and don't have my book, curse it. I look forward to looking up the reference when I get home. From chapter 18 I got the information that the only Double Potions is on Friday. > Thursday: > ?? > Transfiguration p. 385 > Lunch > DADA p.210 (I think this is double because on page 232 Harry states > that "as he hobbled out of the DADA class an hour later . . ." and > when you add the time it took for all the students to be put under > the Imperious Curse, it makes sense...) Also, in chapter 14, DADA begins right after lunch and goes right up to dinner. On the one hand, this supports its being a double class; on the other, it is surely longer than 1 1/2 hours. I know these are growing adolescents and all, but that's putting meals a bit close together. However, the text leaves no wiggle room, so I think JKR was just a bit sloppy, or else Double classes aren't all the same length--maybe Thursday's DADA is 3 hours or more while Friday's Potions is only 1 1/2 hours . . . no, it doesn't seem likely, does it? > Friday: > History of Magic (p. 396 indicates it's on Friday after lunch, but > with double potions that isn't possible... P. 569 confirms it's > Friday morning) Yes. > ???? Charms is also on Fridays: chapter 26. Amy Z From crussell at arkansas.net Thu Sep 12 17:23:44 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 17:23:44 -0000 Subject: What to adult wizards do?? In-Reply-To: <13.116780df.2ab1fdd8@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43942 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., midgiecat at a... wrote: > Re: What do adult wizards do??? > > What did the parents of James Potter do to leave him so much money? It's > fine to say he inherited money, but where did it come from originally? Brenda W. > Where all that inheritance came from seems to be another of those secrets that JKR will reveal later on concerning Harry's parents. I know it has been stated by JKR that we will learn more about Harry's parents in future books. I for one can hardly wait to find out more about James and Lily Potter-and I believe Harry is getting ready to ask some pretty important questions concerning his parents ( and according to JKR, this will occur in book 5). IMO, when you get right down to it, we know next to nothing about James and Lily- and I am very anxious to discover exactly who they were. From what we have been told they must have been extraordinary people-and I am ready to meet them. bugaloo37-who loves Harry and knows she will love his parents From ftah3 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 12 17:54:34 2002 From: ftah3 at yahoo.com (ftah3) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 17:54:34 -0000 Subject: What to adult wizards do?? In-Reply-To: <13.116780df.2ab1fdd8@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43943 Brenda W. wrote: > what do wizards like Lucius Malfoy, or the > families of other Hogwarts students, do to earn wizard money? I've generally assumed that, in terms of jobs, any job that exists in the Muggle world probably exists in the wizard world, in some form. As you noted, we've seen politicians, teachers, a bus driver and conductor, & shop-owners. We've also seen journalists, a professional writer (the infamous Lockhart!), bankers (Gringott's), professional athletes, a policeman-type (Moody, as auror), a researcher? or caretaker? of dragons (Charlie Weasley), and a nurse. We've heard of a hospital, heard of musicians, and know of a variety of services & products required by wizards - and we can speculate about others (i.e., who keeps a rich wizard's books [accountancy]? Who watches the little wizard children in families where the single parent or both parents work? etc.). We know there are just plain ol' rich people who have money via inheritance. We know that slaves (House Elves) take care of some tasks in some families/institutions, such as cooking, cleaning & laundering, but we don't know that they are put to those tasks in all cases. So, I imagine that there are quite likely plenty of jobs, and permutations of jobs (i.e. a journalist might need an editor, and they both might need a printer, and the whole shebang might need a distribution agency). There are magical ways of accomplishing certain activities, but that doesn't seem, in most cases, to negate a need for someone to perform some active function in concert with the magic (i.e., Mrs. Weasley can magically peel potatoes, instead of having to do it by hand; but she still has to know and perform the spell required to make it happen). ...and now that I'm thinking about this, what I'm curious about is what sort of unusual jobs might there be in the wizarding world - jobs you wouldn't find in the Muggle world? Like being a dragon keeper (even though it's probably the equivelant of maybe a zoo keeper or forest services type of job, it's still *dragons!* :P). Hm! Mahoney From candlewick4 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 12 17:52:40 2002 From: candlewick4 at yahoo.com (candlewick) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 10:52:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Crouch!Moody's teaching WAS Quirrel's teaching...Dumbledore's aging process In-Reply-To: <004901c25a0a$5c7c0680$6501a8c0@buckeyecablesystem.com> Message-ID: <20020912175240.40880.qmail@web12407.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43944 --- Denise wrote: > I'm with you that > Quirrel could have been > a good DADA teacher before his Voldy-years. But as > to if he continued to > teach as well after, I'm left wondering this: What > would be his motivation > for teaching DADA well, after his Voldification? > He'd have to teach it > passably, at least, to remain at Hogwarts and keep > his cover. But I'd say he > has a lot of motivation to be a poor teacher. After > all, the more students > who are good at defending against the dark arts, the > higher the danger to > Voldy and the Death Eaters. One of Quirrel's > students might just be the next > super-auror who gets his start under his tutelage. > Best to keep them less > well informed, for his boss anyway. Ok, if this is the case, and I agree with your logic, by the way, so...why did Fake!Moody teach Harry (and all his other students, presumably) how to resist the Imperious Curse? Voldemort tried to use it on Harry in the graveyard and Harry was able to fight it because he'd been given so much practice from Crouch!Moody. Was Crouch!Moody just trying to be a good teacher in order not to blow his cover? Candlewick __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com From sym_2_one at hotmail.com Thu Sep 12 18:08:42 2002 From: sym_2_one at hotmail.com (sym_2_one) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 18:08:42 -0000 Subject: A question about wizard children Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43945 This is another question that's been bothering me, ever since I read the first novel. What in the world to wizard children do before they attend Hogwarts, if they are able to attend at all? What happens to kids under the age of eleven if both parents have to work? How do they learn to read, write, and do simple math? What if a wizard child is not offered to attend of School of Magic? Maybe someone has already answered this, or maybe there are no answers, but I'd surely like to know if one exists. "sym_2_one" From sym_2_one at hotmail.com Thu Sep 12 17:56:41 2002 From: sym_2_one at hotmail.com (sym_2_one) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 17:56:41 -0000 Subject: Professor Trelawney's First Prediction Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43946 I have been mulling over this question for a few years now, and I am convinced that Professor Trelawney's first prediction had something to do with Harry and Voldemort. Here is my reasoning: In chapter seventeen of the Sorcerer's Stone, Harry says to Dumbledore, "...Voldemort said that he only killed my mother because she tried to stop him from killing me. But why would he want to kill me in the first place?" Dumbledore replies, "Alas, the first thing you ask me, I cannot tell you. Not today. Not now. You will know, one day...put it from your mind for now, Harry. When you are older...I know you hate to hear this...when you are ready you will know." Harry obviously does put this out of his mind, and so does everyone else, until the Prisoner of Azkaban. In chapter Nine, Harry hears his mother's voice for the first time during a Quidditch match when the dementor's come onto the field, confirming what Voldemort told Harry in book One. Voldemort was willing to let Lily live if he could have Harry in exchange. In Chapter Twelve, during Patronus practice with Lupin, Harry hears his father say, "Lily, take Harry and go! It's him! Go! Run! I'll hold him off--" Why did James say that he would "hold him off"? What was he holding Voldemort from? It is my opinion to say that Voldemort wasn't actually after the Potters as a family. He was only after Harry. James and Lily Potter died because they trying to protect their son. I believe that Trelawney made a prediction that Harry would be the cause of Voldemort's downfall, either as a child, or as a man. Whatever the case, Voldemort tried to kill him as quickly as possible, before Harry would grow up to be a danger to him. "sym_2_one" From crussell at arkansas.net Thu Sep 12 18:31:46 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 18:31:46 -0000 Subject: What makes a hero? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43947 >From my youth up, I have simply adored the Arthurian legends. IMO, I have always seen Arthur as the epitome of the flawed hero-one who is brave and true to himself-but very human in his limitations. IMO, a comparison can be drawn between Arthur and Harry (please excuse me if this has been done before)- at least, to a certain extent. It has been said by some that Arthur was a victim of his fate ( as you know- I do NOT believe in fate). I do not see this - Arthur made his choices-sometimes he was right but at other significant times, he was wrong-for which, he paid a heavy price. Let let me list one of the similarities: both Harry and Arthur were "orphans" (Arthur's mother was living-but he did not know her)-raised to a certain age without knowledge of their special heritages (Arthur-king; Harry-wizard). We know from Dumbledore that this was done in Harry's case to give him a certain amount of protection. The same can be said for Arthur. IMO, there is another benefit to this separation. Arthur/Harry both had the opportunity to view the world from a different angle which would add to their ability to make educated choices later. Bravery, integrity-an open heart coupled with an open mind, the ability to adapt and then take action and not be tied down with concepts such as fate and destiny- IMO, are some of the most important qualities of a hero. Bugaloo37-who believes that tragedies always reveal what is worst and what is best in human nature. From crussell at arkansas.net Thu Sep 12 19:08:45 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 19:08:45 -0000 Subject: Professor Trelawney's First Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43948 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "sym_2_one" wrote: > > I believe that Trelawney made a prediction that Harry would be the > cause of Voldemort's downfall, either as a child, or as a man. > Whatever the case, Voldemort tried to kill him as quickly as > possible, before Harry would grow up to be a danger to him. > > > "sym_2_one" I think you are right on target with this opinion. Especially in regards to Harry being Voldemort's only true target-but why? IMO, Voldemort basing his desire to kill Harry on a prediction falls in very well with what we know about him. Voldemort obviously puts great stock in the importance of heritage-i.e., his disdain for mudbloods/muggles (because of his father). Heritage, destiny/fate, predications-all fall under the heading of things that are supposedly "out of your control" He refuses to see people as individuals-only a means to an end. Harry makes up his own mind in regards to a person's worthiness judging and wishing to be judged according to individual merit. IMO, JKR is saying a person who depends on predictions and relies on his family's accomplishments - is someone who is unsure of himself and his own abilities. bugaloo37-who sees Voldemort as the WW's equivalent of Hitler-what do you think? From MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Sep 12 19:15:56 2002 From: MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM (mitchbailey82) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 19:15:56 -0000 Subject: Werewolves/ Lupin etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43949 > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "kiricat2001" wrote: > > Marianne wrote: > If your reading of the line is correct, and Remus was a year or two > older, would that matter to the plot? I can't think of anything off > the top of my head that would make an age difference significant > between Remus and J/S/P. If there's no real significance, then I > don't know why JKR would bother setting that up. Now me? Aha a challenge: It makes a difference not only if my first theory (message no.43907) is true. But also age is an essential part of the character (people re curious as Dumbledore's actual age after all?), it makes a difference as it could help us understand the character better. Don't underestimate what effect character depth has on the plot - a single detail not only changes the way we the reader views him, but also how the other characters in the book view him and this can make a difference. Assuming that Lupin is older? I don't view being years older as the people in your year being a SMALL detail to many kids this would be a HUGE deal and whilst it might not be such a big detail now I probably was back then. Being kept back a year (this happens extremely - extremely rarely in England, but from American tv shows I get the impression that this is more common in the USA) is a big deal. It sort of implies that your dumber than the rest (maybe for some this is the case but not for Lupin) however children will still take a difference (no matter why this is) as a means to tease/ antagonise. If it were true that Lupin was older this we give us another reason as to why he's so unhappy about what he is. Not only do people shun him etc, but he had to wait longer to go to Hogwarts (I've also always had a feeling that Lupin has never quite accepted what he is (werewolf) ? but that's another issue?)(only with acceptance can we truly move on). In terms of the character and understanding the character his age when he entered Hogwarts does make a difference. It's an assumption that has been made that James, Sirius, Peter and Lupin are all the same age - but are we right to make this assumption? However also if he's kept this from everyone we've got another example of how untrusting? (Maybe cautious is a better word?) He is (he didn't tell James, Sirius and Peter what that he was a werewolf they figured that out themselves). In short don't underestimate the importance of a small detail. Michelle ~ who feels she has gone on and on for long enough From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Thu Sep 12 19:48:41 2002 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 12:48:41 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Some more predictions... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8811139503.20020912124841@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43950 Thursday, September 12, 2002, 2:15:39 AM, theresnothingtoit wrote: t> A proper magical duel between Severus "looks like he's on our side t> now" Snape and Sirius "I always knew he was evil" Black. Preferably t> in the main hall, up and down one of the house tables, with the whole t> school watching. Who do you think will win? t> Severus Snape uttering the words "the only girl I ever wanted was the t> only girl I could never have" (everyone get their LOLLIPOPS at the t> ready) And her name is Florence. * evil grin * t> James turns out not to be the saint everyone thought he was and t> actually use the invisibility clock to sneak into the girl's locker t> room. LOL! t> Voldemort, Dumbledore and Harry: Voldemort because he is evil, t> Dumbledor because he is good and Harry because unfortunately he is t> Harry Potter, symbol of hope. I still can't believe she'll kill Harry, if only because it would render the pitch that the series is about "a wizard's coming of age" false advertising! t> Harry, Sirius and Peter: (Harry representing James) to parallel t> Remus's loss of the first defeat of Voldemort. Fortunately Snape t> will be alive, redeemed and now at least not paranoid about Lupins t> problem once a month. Here's my current theory about Peter -- I think there's a clue in the graveyard when V says that the rebounding AK did not kill him though it *should* have... I think Dumbledore looked triumphant because the purity of Lily-proteced!Harry's blood + unicorn's blood in his rebirthing potion has erased the effects of his immortality experiments. So what I think will happen is that V will attempt to kill Harry again, but Wormtail (his gratitude to Harry preying on him) will make the ultimate sacrifice by standing in the way -- In other words, he will turn into Lily!! V kills W of course, but this time when he AK's Harry and it rebounds, it destroys Totally-Mortal!Voldy completely! Too far-fetched? This is one of the few scenarios I can think of that would make Harry truly glad he saved Peter, because it then leads directly to Voldy's final destruction. t> (just like predicting future Ever So Evil characters, is there any t> character that has not had the ESE treatment from this board?) I still haven't seen anyone argue in favor of Evil!Nearly-Headless Nick. -- Dave From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 12 20:27:38 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 20:27:38 -0000 Subject: Professor Trelawney's First Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43951 "sym_2_one" wrote: > It is my opinion to say that Voldemort wasn't actually after the > Potters as a family. He was only after Harry. James and Lily > Potter died because they trying to protect their son. Now me: I think Voldemort went to Godric's Hollow intending to kill James and Harry but not Lily, based on what he tells Harry at the end of PS/SS: "I killed your father first and he put up a courageous fight...but your mother needn't have died...she was trying to protect you" (Ch. 17, UK ed. p. 213). Now I know Voldemort is not the most honest of souls, but IMO this statement is confirmed in the recollections of his parents' voices that Harry hears when the Dementors approach. "sym_2_one" again: > I believe that Trelawney made a prediction that Harry would be the > cause of Voldemort's downfall, either as a child, or as a man. > Whatever the case, Voldemort tried to kill him as quickly as > possible, before Harry would grow up to be a danger to him. Me again: I like this theory a lot, but it leads me to wonder who told Voldemort about Trelawney's prediction (presumably it wasn't Trelawney herself, unless there's a *lot* we don't know about her)? Pettigrew is the best possibility, IMO. ~Phyllis From alexpie at aol.com Thu Sep 12 20:30:46 2002 From: alexpie at aol.com (alexpie at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 16:30:46 EDT Subject: Sinistra and Gender Message-ID: <128.176f6ca1.2ab25376@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43952 If this was already settled, aplogies. I did a search in the archives, but didn't find anything definitive. I lost a bit of mail this week. Anyway, I had it in the back of my mind that Sinistra was female, and I think I have canon to support it (GoF, ch23): "Mad-Eye Moody was doing an extremely ungainly two-step with Professor Sinistra, who was nervously avoiding his wooden leg." I think if it were two male teachers dancing, JKR might have mentioned it, no? Ba From siskiou at earthlink.net Thu Sep 12 20:36:35 2002 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:36:35 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Professor Trelawney's First Prediction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4398168112.20020912133635@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 43953 Hi, Thursday, September 12, 2002, 1:27:38 PM, erisedstraeh2002 wrote: > I like this theory a lot, but it leads me to wonder who told > Voldemort about Trelawney's prediction (presumably it wasn't > Trelawney herself, unless there's a *lot* we don't know about her)? And why would Voldemort (and everyone else?) believe her prediction was going to come true, if it was her first (and only real one for a long time)? Especially since not many people seem to put much stock in her predictions now. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From crussell at arkansas.net Thu Sep 12 20:39:02 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 20:39:02 -0000 Subject: Werewolves/ Lupin etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43954 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "mitchbailey82" wrote: > > In terms of the character and understanding the character his age > when he entered Hogwarts does make a difference. > It's an assumption that has been made that James, Sirius, Peter and > Lupin are all the same age - but are we right to make this > assumption? I could not pass up this opportunity to discuss my second most favorite adult in the HP series-Remus Lupin (by the way, my favorite adult is Sirius Black-in case you wanted to know). In PoA ( my favorite book, of course), when Lupin and Sirius finally meet again after many years and realize each was wrong about the other, an interesting dynamic is set up, which IMO supports the Lupin is older theory. IMO, in the shrieking shack scene, Lupin acts in an almost "older brother" fashion towards Sirius-calming him down and restraining him at certain times. This could be, of course, merely a reflection of their different personalities- Lupin being more reasonable than the impetuous Sirius. The possibility that Lupin was held back as it were because of his "infirmity" is believable and would offer one explanation of why Lupin and Sirius dealt with each other the way they did. bugaloo37-who simply cannot help but love Lupin for the way he took Harry under his wing ( obviously James chose his friends wisely- accept for Pettigrew-of course) From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 12 20:44:24 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 20:44:24 -0000 Subject: Why Can't Hagrid Do Magic? In-Reply-To: <37.2d3882ba.2ab1d69f@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43955 Eloise wrote: > I personally don't think there is anything particularly benevolent > in forbidding someone who can only live in the WW from using magic. > I've often tried to imagine what it would be like living in the WW > as a Muggle and I think it would be incredibly hard. You would be > reduced to using essentially medieval technology in a society where > everyone else had magical means doing things, or leaving to live > life as a Muggle. Now me: While I know Hagrid tells Harry in PS/SS that he's not allowed to do magic, I think there's evidence in canon that he does quite a bit of magic anyway (whether it's legal or not is a different issue!). For example, in PS/SS: "Harry had never been to London before. Although Hagrid seemed to know where he was going, he was obviously not used to getting there in an *ordinary way*. He got stuck in the ticket barrier on the Underground and complained loudly that the seats were too small and the trains too slow. '*I don't know how the Muggles manage without magic,*' he said" (Ch 5., UK ed., p. 53, my emphases). This snip suggests to me that Hagrid doesn't ordinarily take Muggle transportation to get places. And if Hagrid "doesn't know how Muggles manage without magic," it suggests to me that Hagrid normally doesn't manage without magic either. And in Ch. 7 of CoS, when Hagrid shows them the enormous pumpkins: "'What've you been feeding them?' said Harry. Hagrid looked over his shoulder to check that they were alone. 'Well, I've bin givin' them - you know - a bit o' help.' Harry noticed Hagrid's flowery pink umbrella leaning against the back wall of the cabin. Harry had had reason to believe before now that this umbrella was not all it looked; in fact, he had the strong impression that Hagrid's old school wand was concealed inside. Hagrid wasn't supposed to use magic... 'An Engorgement Charm, I suppose?' said Hermione" (UK ed., p. 90). In addition, you can't get into Diagon Alley without using magic to open the archway. And while Hagrid was allowed to do some magic to deliver Harry's letter in PS/SS and get his school supplies, we see Hagrid in Diagon Alley again in CoS. ~Phyllis From nplyon at yahoo.com Thu Sep 12 20:49:26 2002 From: nplyon at yahoo.com (Nicole L.) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:49:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: {FILK} 21 Things I Want in a DE Message-ID: <20020912204926.40402.qmail@web20905.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43956 (To the tune of 21 Things I Want in a Lover by Alanis Morissette.) Dedicated to Fyre Wood because of your fascination with the dark side. :) The Scene: Voldemort and Wormtail are preparing for the ceremony in the cemetary and the return of the DEs. Wormtail starts jamming away at the guitar as Voldemort bursts into song. Do you derive joy from hearing Muggles scream? Is your best friend a dementor at old Azkaban? When you sleep do you enjoy casting curses in your dreams But find it more fun to be awake and cast them? Do you wish to be part of an invasion But prefer following orders not making them? Do you know Crucio, Imperio? And Avada Kedavra? And dont believe in Ministries of Magic? These are 21 things that I want in a DE Each and every category is a true necessity Do you derive joy from breaking in And taunting and attacking helpless, innocent one-year- old babies? Are you faithful? A la true subservience? Like grave danger? And have none of your own opinions? These are 21 things that I want in a DE Each and every category is a true necessity I figure since Im the Dark Lord I can afford to be very picky These are 21 things I choose to choose in a DE Im in a hurry I cant wait forever Im in a rush cuz I cant do this alone I have no body and theres a lot of pressure In the meantime Ill capture Harry tomorrow Are you uninhibited with spells? Like to cast a whole lot? Up for being experimental? Are you pathetic? Are you writhing in great fear whenever Im near? Are you a huge bigot? These are 21 things that I want in a DE Each and every category is a true necessity These are 21 things that I want in a DE Each and every category is a true necessity and are you curious and truly vindictive? ~Nicole __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com From eloiseherisson at aol.com Thu Sep 12 21:04:23 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 17:04:23 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Can't Hagrid Do Magic? Message-ID: <43.1170f217.2ab25b57@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43957 Phyllis commenting on my suggestion that depriving someone of the right to perform magic is not a light punishment: > While I know Hagrid tells Harry in PS/SS that he's not allowed to do > magic, I think there's evidence in canon that he does quite a bit of > magic anyway (whether it's legal or not is a different issue!). > Oh, I perfectly agree. Hagrid gets away with a lot. First of all, he still (I think) has his wand, hidden in that umbrella and secondly, Dumbledore seems to turn a blind eye to what he gets up to at Hogwarts. But if he really *was* deprived of his wand, and didn't live at Hogwarts with a benevolent headmaster, I think he, or anyone else in that position would have a pretty hard time. I was talking about what the punishment was *supposed* to be, rather than the way it panned out for this particular individual, as I think you recognise. IMO, it amounts nearly to ostracism. Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 12 21:06:05 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 21:06:05 -0000 Subject: Some more predictions... In-Reply-To: <8811139503.20020912124841@mindspring.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43958 Dave Hardenbrook wrote: > I still can't believe she'll kill Harry, if only because it would > render the pitch that the series is about "a wizard's coming of age" > false advertising! Now me: I really hope you're right, but Harry could come of age and then be killed, which would keep it from being called false advertising! Dave again: > Here's my current theory about Peter -- I think there's a clue in > the graveyard when V says that the rebounding AK did not kill him > though it *should* have... I think Dumbledore looked triumphant > because the purity of Lily-protected!Harry's blood + unicorn's > blood in his rebirthing potion has erased the effects of his > immortality experiments. So what I think will happen is that V > will attempt to kill Harry again, but Wormtail (his gratitude to > Harry preying on him) will make the ultimate sacrifice by standing > in the way -- In other words, he will turn into Lily!! Me again: I don't think Wormtail will sacrifice himself for Harry. I think Sirus is absolutely correct about Wormtail when he says to Wormtail in PoA: "You never did anything for anyone unless you could see what was in it for yourself." Since Wormtail would have nothing to gain and everything to lose by sacrificing himself for Harry, I can't see him doing it. But I *do* think Wormtail will do *something* that will either help Harry defeat Voldemort or protect Harry from Voldemort in order to pay back the life-debt. I don't have a good idea as to what that *something* will be, but IMO it won't be a self- sacrifice. I also think that Voldemort already knows that he lost his immortality as part of the rebirthing process. IIRC, in the graveyard scene in GoF, he tells the DEs that he is willing to accept a mortal body before chasing immortality again. So I don't think this is the basis for the look of triumph in Dumbledore's eyes - I think Dumbledore is triumphant because he realizes something that Voldemort *doesn't* realize, and it has something to do with the use of Harry's blood (because it's after he hears about Harry's blood being used in the potion that Dumbledore exhibits that mysterious triumphant look). ~Phyllis From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 12 21:10:50 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 21:10:50 -0000 Subject: Sinistra and Gender In-Reply-To: <128.176f6ca1.2ab25376@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43959 Ba (alexpie) wrote: > If this was already settled, apologies. I did a search in the > archives, but didn't find anything definitive. I lost a bit of > mail this week. Anyway, I had it in the back of my mind that > Sinistra was female, and I think I have canon to support it (GoF, > ch23): "Mad-Eye Moody was doing an extremely ungainly two-step with > Professor Sinistra, who was nervously avoiding his wooden leg." > I think if it were two male teachers dancing, JKR might have > mentioned it, no? Now me: This is from Steve's Lexicon (which looks great, BTW - check it out, he's reformatted the home page): "Sinistra is noted as dancing a two-step with Moody, so many have assumed that Sinistra is a witch. This reference cannot be seen as conclusive proof, however." ~Phyllis From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 12 21:32:20 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 21:32:20 -0000 Subject: Professor Trelawney's First Prediction In-Reply-To: <4398168112.20020912133635@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43960 Susanne wrote: > And why would Voldemort (and everyone else?) believe her > prediction was going to come true, if it was her first (and > only real one for a long time)? > > Especially since not many people seem to put much stock in > her predictions now. Now me: Has it ever occurred to anyone that Dumbledore might have been joking when he said that the "servant of Lord Voldemort" prediction was only Trelawney's second real one? I read it as a joke on my first reading of PoA, and it was only after I became a member of LOON that I started to wonder about the first prediction. Although when someone asked JKR what Trelawney's first real prediction was in an interview, JKR refused to answer, which suggests there is probably something to it. ~Phyllis From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Sep 12 21:56:09 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 21:56:09 -0000 Subject: Why Can't Hagrid Do Magic? In-Reply-To: <37.2d3882ba.2ab1d69f@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43961 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., eloiseherisson at a... wrote: > Regarding my (Eloise) use of misdemeanour: > > > bboy_mn replies: > > ..snip.. however, I was trying to discredit your post,... > Eloise Asked: > Is that *was* or *wasn't* trying to discredit? ;-) > bboy_mn: Sorry, of course, I meant 'I was NOT trying to discredit your post'. Sometimes my brain and my keyboard get a little out of sync. > > Eloise comments: > I personally don't think there is anything particularly benevolent > in forbidding someone ... from using magic. > bboy_mn responds: I'm not saying it's benevolent; I'm saying it's benevolent compared to an extremely long prison sentence in Azkaban. It's a relative thing. > Eloise: > The thing that I'm not sure I'm understanding, is who the other > students to whom you refer are. Were other students petrified > the first time, as well as Myrtle dying? bboy_mn replies: According to Tom Riddle's diary, several students were attacked and one was killed when the Chamber was opened while he was in school. >Eloise continues: > ...heavy snip... > > So if he (Hagrid) was only thought to have let one of his 'pets' loose, I don't think it's necessary for him to have been believed to have let the *same* creature loose the second time round. > bboy_mn - general comments: Tom Riddle, Dobby, Lucius Malfoy, Draco Malfoy and presumably Dumbledore all believe the Chamber of Secrets really was opened last time. They refer to it as such, and do not refer to it as the last time Hagrid let one of his pets run wild. Since there were several students attacked the first time, we have to assume their appearance and symptoms were the same as the current petrified victims. That would be a pretty fair indicator that the same or a very similar animal was doing the attacking. Remember Dumbledore was at the school when Riddle was there and the first attacks took place, so he has first hand knowledge. As far as Hagrid, I think he was the scapegoat. It was very convenient for the Ministry and the school to blame Hagrid and his pet even if the facts didn't really support that conclusion. Their interest, especially the Ministry's, was to put this to rest and salvage their reputations. I don't think very many people who were on the inside of this situation believed it was Hagrid. But finding a culprit and having someone to blame made them look good. Also, all the real details of what happened were hushed up. Tom Riddle was told to keep his mouth shut, and they used the 'Hagrid did it' story as their official statement of what happened. I must add that to the wizarding public at large, even the 'Hagrid did it' story was not used. The official PUBLIC statement was that the girl died in an accident. All the other details were kept quiet. - bboy_mn - > Grey Wolf has pointed out that spiders (some, at least) do paralyze their prey. This is true, although I think Dumbledore, in all his wisdom and experience, would have recognized the difference between that and petrification. Don't ask me how. I don't know how he diagnosed petrification in the first place. > > Eloise bboy_mn - more general comments: Petrified implies a stone-like state. Paralysis is more likely to be a limp state. Although, there may be some venom that could induce rigid muscles, I doubt that it would be the extreme petrified/stone-like state that we are seeing with the Basilisk. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Sep 12 22:25:16 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 22:25:16 -0000 Subject: Harry Can Hold Both A Wand And Another Object In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43962 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "ffimiles" wrote: > ...snip... > ... - he lands on the Quidditch pitch > after the cup (portkey) brings him back to Hogwarts - face down, > Cderic's wrist in one hand, cup in the other - and Dumbledore manages > to turn him over -even though he doesn't let go of Cedric - wouldn't > his arms get totally twisted? > ...snip.. > > Ffi Funny, I was thinking the same thing last night. But unrealistically twisted arms is only true if you assume that they (Cedric/Harry) were laying side by side and that Harry's arm was extended. Picture them laying head to head with their feet in opposite directions, or laying head to head at right angles to each other, and Harry with his arm close to his body and bent at the elbow. In either of these positions it is possible to roll Harry over without any extreme twisting of his arm. At least, that's the best I could come up with when I tried to solve the dilemma. bboy_mn From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Thu Sep 12 22:40:41 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 22:40:41 -0000 Subject: Paralysis and Petrification (was: Re: Why Can't Hagrid Do Magic?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43963 Eloise wrote: > > Grey Wolf has pointed out that spiders (some, at least) do paralyze > their prey. This is true, although I think Dumbledore, in all his > wisdom and experience, would have recognized the difference between > that and petrification. Don't ask me how. I don't know how he > diagnosed petrification in the first place. > > > > Eloise > > bboy_mn - more general comments: > Petrified implies a stone-like state. Paralysis is more likely to be > a limp state. Although, there may be some venom that could induce > rigid muscles, I doubt that it would be the extreme petrified/ > stone-like state that we are seeing with the Basilisk. > > bboy_mn Petrified means incapable of moving the body. It is generally accepted that the body is stiff, but it doesn't necesarily mean so. However, even if it does mean that the body's muscles are tensed up, this sort of effect *can* be produced by certain spiders. I've checked with two doctors on this (they were handy. I'm not *that* obsessed), and they both agree that some spiders do, in some cases, the stiff form of paralysis called "tetanus" or rigid, in those cases in which there is motor cortex damage. Although they're not common (most spider venoms's effects tend towards death by necrosis of the tissues instead of any form of paralysis), they're not unheard of. In fact, a quick search in google will give you a several examples of either case. And the fact is that the MoM didn't investigate at all, or the lack of injection orifices in the victims would ave proven obvious that the paralysis weren't the result of an injected venom. Hagrid had a spider, people were being paralysed, thus Hagrid's spider was responsible. QED, in the most typical form of MoM justice. Finally, don't be so quick to disregard the power of the venom of a two to five foot spider (that must have been the size of Aragog at the time). An spider that size would have no difficulty to kill, and it could paralyse indefinetely too, by carefully moderating the amount of venom she injects. And a grave damage to the neurons and to specific regions of the brain (regions that are comonly targeted by venoms) can cause inmediate stiffening of the muscles, which could very well be described as petrification. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From rvotaw at i-55.com Thu Sep 12 23:21:19 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 18:21:19 -0500 Subject: Potterverse Secret Code revisited Message-ID: <018b01c25ab3$1aa40d80$79a0cdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 43964 Well, it took me a while, but I've taken Melody's (I think that's who thought this up) secret code based on vowels and run with it. I do love secret codes. However, I've made a few changes. Here are the new rules: 1) You must use the fullest known form of each person's name, you can't pick and choose a first or last name. 2) You cannot assume a name is a nickname and choose another name unless canon supports it (i.e. Ron becomes Ronald but Bill does not become William, etc.) 3) Y is counted as a vowel And here is how the code works: An even number of vowels in the full name constitute good. An odd number of vowels in the full name constitutes evil. There are, however, some exceptions. Evil isn't always evil. It's sometimes a good person who inadvertantly aids evil. Same thing for good. Could be that a person who was really bad "messes up" and aids the good side unintentionally. I'll go through as many names as I can think of here: Name (# of vowels) good/evil Harry Potter (4) good Hermione Granger (6) good Ronald Weasley (6) good Arthur Weasley (6) good Molly Weasley (6) good Bill Weasley (5) evil Charlie Weasley (7) evil Percy Weasley (6) good Fred Weasley (5) evil George Weasley (7) evil Ginny Weasley (6) good Let me stop and elaborate before the Weasley fans shoot me. :) Don't get me wrong, I love the Weasleys. I'd have preferred to have Percy evil. But alas, he's come out good. Which confirms that he will come back to good even if he does "go bad." Of course. ;) Now, I see Fred and George as very likely the type who may get into some sort of mischief that through no intentional evil aids the side of evil. Bill and Charlie we really don't know well enough to work that out yet. Colin Creevey (6) good Draco Malfoy (5) evil Neville Longbottom (6) good Parvati Patil (5) evil Padme Patil (4) good Pansy Parkinson (5) evil Marcus Flint (3) evil Oliver Wood (5) evil (once again, maybe not of his choosing, but alas) Albus Dumbledore (6) good Minerva McGonagall (6) good Flitwick (2) good Sybil Trelawney (6) good Alastor Moody (6) good Remus Lupin (4) good Gilderoy Lockhart (6) good Cornelius Fudge (6) good Bartemius Crouch Junior (9) evil Bartemius Crouch Senior (9) evil [again, maybe he didn't have evil intentions, but he made a REALLY big mistake. Definitely aided the side of evil.] Ludovic Bagman (5) evil Rita Skeeter (5) evil Igor Karakaroff (5) evil Evan Rosier (5) evil Lestrange (3) evil Macnair (3) evil Mulciber (3) evil Antonion Dolohov (7) evil Lily Potter (4) or if you like Lily Evans Potter (6) good James Potter (4) good Tom Marvolo Riddle (6) good [Ah, remember he begin to think of himself as Voldemort long before he dropped out of sight, but I do think he was born good] Voldemort (3) odd Sirius Black (4) good Cedric Diggory (5) evil. Ah, here's where I first got stuck. BUT, if you go by the inadvertantly aiding evil theory, it works. He did aid Voldemort in getting Harry to the graveyard. By refusing to take the cup alone. Good intentions, but alas.] Lucius Malfoy (6) good??? Well, maybe he will make a big mistake somewhere along the way and aid the side of good. Can't be just the "good" guys who make mistakes. Peter Pettigrew (5) evil Rubeus Hagrid (5) evil. Yep, Hagrid will blunder and give away valuable information to the evil side. Technically, he's already done it. (how to calm Fluffy) So, there you have it. I really must be nuts. :) Richelle ********************************************************************* "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring ********************************************************************* [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rvotaw at i-55.com Thu Sep 12 23:32:37 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 18:32:37 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] A question about wizard children References: Message-ID: <01a401c25ab4$aeaa3a80$79a0cdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 43965 "sym_2_one" asks: > What in the world to wizard children do before they attend Hogwarts, > if they are able to attend at all? What happens to kids under the > age of eleven if both parents have to work? How do they learn to > read, write, and do simple math? What if a wizard child is not > offered to attend of School of Magic? Well, JKR was asked about the status of children before attending Hogwarts, and she said they weren't required to go to Muggle school. My interpretation on the matter is that if they do not go to Muggle school to learn to read and write, the parents are required to tutor them. If not, they should go to Muggle school and learn the basics so that they will be prepared for further schooling at Hogwarts, etc. If they are not invited, well, they'd better apply at McDonalds. :) Not much to do with the wizarding world, I'd assume, as Filch is so desperate that his "secret" doesn't get out. Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From gandharvika at hotmail.com Thu Sep 12 23:54:11 2002 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 23:54:11 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hufflepuffs (WAS:Neville and the sorting hat) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43966 Finwitch wrote: >How many times Neville says he's not brave >enough to be Gryffindor and that he should have been Hufflepuff for >being so lousy. Sorry, but I'm going to go off on a little tangent. Forgive me. Now, first, is there any canon which Neville says he "should be in Hufflepuff for being so lousy"? I don't remember off hand. Correct me if I'm wrong Second, there seems to be a bias against the illustrious Hufflepuff House (*cough*fyrewood*cough*) and I'm wondering why is that? Maybe I read your statement incorrectly, Finwitch, but I took it to say that Neville, thinking himself to be too lousy for the likes of Gryffindor, should have been put into Hufflepuff, the place for the lousy to go. I know that if I were to be sorted, the Hat would immediately say, "Hufflepuff", and I have not problem with that. I am not ashamed. "Loyal, true, patient..." these are adjectives that describe this House, but people seem to think that these qualities are not good enough, and that only the cowards (non-Gryffindors) the non-ambitious (non-Slytherins) and the stupid (non-Ravenclaws) are put there because there is nowhere else for them to go. Could somebody please tell me where Hufflepuff got this bad rap? And, in general, why are the qualities which Hufflepuffs are said to possess not valued like the others? >It would be ridiculous if the person can not be proud >of the house he's >in... Here here. -Gail B. who is going off to have a good sulk. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From carmenharms at yahoo.com Fri Sep 13 01:13:17 2002 From: carmenharms at yahoo.com (snazzzybird) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 01:13:17 -0000 Subject: Potterverse Secret Code revisited In-Reply-To: <018b01c25ab3$1aa40d80$79a0cdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43967 --- "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > Well, it took me a while, but I've taken Melody's (I think that's who thought this up) secret code based on vowels and run with it. I do love secret codes. However, I've made a few changes. Here are the new rules: > > 1) You must use the fullest known form of each person's name, you can't pick and > choose a first or last name. > 2) You cannot assume a name is a nickname and choose another name unless canon > supports it (i.e. Ron becomes Ronald but Bill does not become William, etc.) > 3) Y is counted as a vowel > > And here is how the code works: > > An even number of vowels in the full name constitute good. > An odd number of vowels in the full name constitutes evil. > > There are, however, some exceptions. Evil isn't always evil. It's sometimes a good person who inadvertantly aids evil. Same thing for good. Could be that a person who was really bad "messes up" and aids the good side unintentionally. > > I'll go through as many names as I can think of here: > Name (# of vowels) good/evil > > Harry Potter (4) good > Hermione Granger (6) good > Ronald Weasley (6) good > Arthur Weasley (6) good > Molly Weasley (6) good > Bill Weasley (5) evil > Charlie Weasley (7) evil > Percy Weasley (6) good > Fred Weasley (5) evil > George Weasley (7) evil > Ginny Weasley (6) good > > Let me stop and elaborate before the Weasley fans shoot me. :) Don't get me wrong, I love the Weasleys. I'd have preferred to have Percy evil. But alas, he's come out good. Which confirms that he will come back to good even if he does "go bad." Of course. ;) Now, I see Fred and George as very likely the type who may get into some sort of mischief that through no intentional evil aids the side of evil. Bill and Charlie we really don't know well enough to work that out yet. > > Colin Creevey (6) good > Draco Malfoy (5) evil > Neville Longbottom (6) good > Parvati Patil (5) evil > Padme Patil (4) good > Pansy Parkinson (5) evil > Marcus Flint (3) evil > Oliver Wood (5) evil (once again, maybe not of his choosing, but alas) > Albus Dumbledore (6) good > Minerva McGonagall (6) good > Flitwick (2) good > Sybil Trelawney (6) good > Alastor Moody (6) good > Remus Lupin (4) good > Gilderoy Lockhart (6) good > Cornelius Fudge (6) good > Bartemius Crouch Junior (9) evil > Bartemius Crouch Senior (9) evil [again, maybe he didn't have evil intentions, but he > made a REALLY big mistake. Definitely aided the side of evil.] > Ludovic Bagman (5) evil > Rita Skeeter (5) evil > Igor Karakaroff (5) evil > Evan Rosier (5) evil > Lestrange (3) evil > Macnair (3) evil > Mulciber (3) evil > Antonion Dolohov (7) evil > Lily Potter (4) or if you like Lily Evans Potter (6) good > James Potter (4) good > Tom Marvolo Riddle (6) good [Ah, remember he begin to think of himself as > Voldemort long before he dropped out of sight, but I do think he was born good] > Voldemort (3) odd > Sirius Black (4) good > Cedric Diggory (5) evil. Ah, here's where I first got stuck. BUT, if you go by the > inadvertantly aiding evil theory, it works. He did aid Voldemort in getting Harry > to the graveyard. By refusing to take the cup alone. Good intentions, but alas.] > Lucius Malfoy (6) good??? Well, maybe he will make a big mistake somewhere along > the way and aid the side of good. Can't be just the "good" guys who make > mistakes. > Peter Pettigrew (5) evil > Rubeus Hagrid (5) evil. Yep, Hagrid will blunder and give away valuable information > to the evil side. Technically, he's already done it. (how to calm Fluffy) > > So, there you have it. I really must be nuts. :) > > Richelle Well... one name is conspicuous by its absence. I had to run that one thru the code myself: Severus Snape (5) evil NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! --snazzzybird, who believes that Snape's early career as a Death Eater was one of those appalling mistakes we sometimes make when we're young and know everything. From Malady579 at hotmail.com Fri Sep 13 04:06:08 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 04:06:08 -0000 Subject: Potterverse Secret Code revisited In-Reply-To: <018b01c25ab3$1aa40d80$79a0cdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43968 Richelle wrote: >> Well, it took me a while, but I've taken Melody's (I think that's who thought this up) secret code based on vowels and run with it. I do love secret codes. However, I've made a few changes. Here are the new rules: 1) You must use the fullest known form of each person's name, you can't pick and choose a first or last name. 2) You cannot assume a name is a nickname and choose another name unless canon supports it (i.e. Ron becomes Ronald but Bill does not become William, etc.) 3) Y is counted as a vowel And here is how the code works: An even number of vowels in the full name constitute good. An odd number of vowels in the full name constitutes evil. There are, however, some exceptions. Evil isn't always evil. It's sometimes a good person who inadvertantly aids evil. Same thing for good. Could be that a person who was really bad "messes up" and aids the good side unintentionally.<<< Now Me: See how addictive these things can be. I must say your code is just as worthy of being a Potterland Code. Your rules are precise and do fit with the understandings we have of the characters. Seems we will never know though if our codes are correct until the end of the series, or will we..... I've decided the codes are not a conscious, deliberate code from JKR but rather a subliminal act from the back of her mind she did not realize. It least that is what I tell myself to justify all this. :) Melody From millergal8 at aol.com Fri Sep 13 04:45:39 2002 From: millergal8 at aol.com (millergal8 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 00:45:39 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Professor Trelawney's First Prediction Message-ID: <160.13bea35b.2ab2c773@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43969 In a message dated 9/12/02 11:26:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time, sym_2_one at hotmail.com writes: << Voldemort wasn't actually after the Potters as a family. He was only after Harry. James and Lily Potter died because they trying to protect their son. >> Hm, I don't know about this. V'mort doesn't say that James and Lily both didn't have to die, only Lily. I really don't see why he would lie about this. It really doesn't serve his purpose. V'mort is quite similiar to terrorists. They don't want to strengthen their victims resolve, they want to destroy them. Inventing something that will only strenght Harry's love for his mother doesn't exactly suit v'morts purpose at the time. That "lie" would give Harry more ammo to fight back. I personally think James and Harry were the only ones to die because possibly the prediction was a Potter was going to be V'morts downfall. Lily, not being a blood Potter was therefore safe. Phyllis write: > I like this theory a lot, but it leads me to wonder who told >Voldemort about Trelawney's prediction (presumably it wasn't >Trelawney herself, unless there's a *lot* we don't know about her)? > Pettigrew is the best possibility, IMO. Me: Well, we do know that there are several ministry officials that are spies. Karkaroff mentions quite a few in his hearing. Anyone of those spies could be in the inner ring of DD's crew, cough-fudge-cough. That is what a spy is for, gathering inside information and passing it on. Pettigrew would be a logical choice, but I really don't see him as being "in" on top government business, and this surely isn't the kind of thing that would be bandied about to the press. Susanne says: >And why would Voldemort (and everyone else?) believe her >prediction was going to come true, if it was her first (and >only real one for a long time)? Me I think that perhaps DD may have been exaggerting a bit there. Since sooo many of her predictions are bogus, its just his little way to inject a bit of humor. And even if this was her first, it is the sort of thing people would hope for. Kind of like the light at the end of the tunnel. Christy From eloiseherisson at aol.com Fri Sep 13 06:14:07 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 02:14:07 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Can't Hagrid Do Magic? Message-ID: <63.118f8bc3.2ab2dc2f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43970 > bboy_mn: > Sorry, of course, I meant 'I was NOT trying to discredit your post'. > Sometimes my brain and my keyboard get a little out of sync. I know the feeling! I didn't really believe you meant the opposite, but it was hard to resist teasing. ;-) > <> > > Eloise: > > The thing that I'm not sure I'm understanding, is who the other > > students to whom you refer are. Were other students petrified > > the first time, as well as Myrtle dying? > > bboy_mn replies: > According to Tom Riddle's diary, several students were attacked and > one was killed when the Chamber was opened while he was in school. Eloise: Thanks. That was the bit I couldn't find (should have looked for the italics!) and it does pose problems, I agree, if we assume that spiders couldn't produce an effect at least extremely similar to pertification. I think the best solution is to run with Grey Wolf's latest post about spider venom. Either that, or it's a FLINT. It doesn't look like JKR finds anything anomalous. > > >Eloise continues: > > ...heavy snip... > > > > So if he (Hagrid) was only thought to have let one of his 'pets' > loose, I don't think it's necessary for him to have been believed to > have let the *same* creature loose the second time round. > > > > bboy_mn - general comments: > Tom Riddle, Dobby, Lucius Malfoy, Draco Malfoy and presumably > Dumbledore all believe the Chamber of Secrets really was opened last > time. They refer to it as such, and do not refer to it as the last > time Hagrid let one of his pets run wild. Dumbledore believes it, but also believes in Hagrid's innocence. Tom Riddle knew, but how much can he say without incriminating himself? Lucius Malfoy knows, IMHO, because he has communicated with Diary!Riddle to hatch the plot. Dobby and Draco know by extension. I think we should remember that Diary!Riddle is not always truthful. He tells about the cover up and his being forbidden to tell anyone in the same passage that he tells Harry that Hagrid opened the Chamber. If Dippett really *did* believe that Hagrid had opened the Chamber of Secrets and set the Monster of Slytherin on students, then how on earth did Dumbledore persuade him to let Hagrid stay in the grounds? And if the MOM were involved, as presumably they were, since Fudge knows all about it, why didn't they intervene? If, as you suggest he was really a scapegoat, intentionally a scapegoat, then Dippett et al *knew* that someone else was responsible and Hagrid's punishment was cruelly severe. But if he were simply their scapegoat why did they think the attacks came to an end? Bit of a coincidence, Hagrid being expelled and the attacks stopping. There was that piece of supporting evidence that he was involved, after all. The most anomalous thing to me is that Riddle pours scorn on the idea of Hagrid being thought the 'Heir', when it seems clear to both of us, if from different perspectives, that he was not officially believed to be such. But then Riddle is not always truthful, as I noted above. One interesting thing about all this is how much influence this reveals Lucius Malfoy to have. If the first incident was hushed up, even to the extent of putting out a story about Myrtle's death, then the second could have been too. Given Fudge's character, one might expect him to do just that. Discrediting Dumbledore, Arthur, Hagrid,etc is Malfoy's agenda. McGonagall sees no option but to close the school, once Ginny is presumed dead. Myrtle *did* die, but the school carried on. Malfoy's opinions clearly carry a lot of weight with Fudge. Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jodel at aol.com Thu Sep 12 20:47:11 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 16:47:11 EDT Subject: Ginny short for what?(was; Potterland sceret code) Message-ID: <8b.1db95510.2ab2574f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43971 Jeff wrote; << 5) Ginny, We KNOW Ginny is not her given name. Virginia is her given name. That's 4. She's EVIL! Brandon responded; I would like to know where you saw heard that Ginny's given name is Virginia because I've looked in the lexicon and I can't find it there. >> Very good point. In fact, now i think of it, around the time that JK was hitting school age wasn't there a series of fairly popular girl's books with the title characters Ginny and Geneva? (Genevra?) They were by the same author as Thursday's Child (I've blanked on her name.) Just because on this side of the pond most Ginnys are Virginias is no reason to completely run away with the idea. There are probably a number of names which shorten to Ginny, (Genevieve, Gena, even, at a stretch, Gwenivere) but the fact that there WAS a popular character named Geneva generally known at the time (as well as the fact that that's at least the third Geneva that I've run into in British children's literature of the general period) leads me to suspect that it may be at least as common a name in Brittan as Virginia is. (It does have 3 vowels, however.) Frankly, by this time, given her hair color, I'm surprised she hasn't been redubed Ginger. (And I've read at least one fanfic where Fred was "Alfred".) -JOdel From aaoconnor2002 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 12 21:27:24 2002 From: aaoconnor2002 at yahoo.com (aaoconnor2002) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 21:27:24 -0000 Subject: Crouch!Moody's teaching WAS Quirrel's teaching...Dumbledore's aging process In-Reply-To: <20020912175240.40880.qmail@web12407.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43972 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., candlewick wrote: > >..why did Fake!Moody teach Harry (and > all his other students, presumably) how to resist the > Imperious Curse? Voldemort tried to use it on Harry > in the graveyard and Harry was able to fight it > because he'd been given so much practice from > Crouch!Moody. Was Crouch!Moody just trying to be a > good teacher in order not to blow his cover? IMO Crouch!Moody was accomplishing a few things with his performance. He WAS acting the good teacher to preserve his cover but he was also setting up the next generation of Voldemort victims AND finding out a lot about Harry and Neville. Fear of the unknown is terrible but fear of the known can be worse. What does Crouch!Moody do? He shows children exactly what they are facing if they defy Voldemort. I know that if I had to face Voldemort after having seen what happened to those spiders I would be a quivering wreck. As to teaching them to resist the Imperious Curse, it appears to me that it takes a natural talent to be very successful at resisting it. Harry is the only one who seems to have the innate ability to resist. I don't have the books with me right now but do any of the other students improve? Even if they do, is Crouch!Moody hitting them with the curse as hard as he can or is he giving them a false sense of accomplishment? Harry and Neville have to be particularly interesting to Crouch! Moody. Harry, after all, is the one who defeated Voldemort. When I re-read that chapter after knowing about Barty Jr. I could almost hear the gears turning in Crouch!Moody's brain. "What does this boy have that makes him special? Exactly how talented/able is he? How did he defeat the Dark Lord and does he know how he did it? Let me find out exactly how much he knows and how good he is." The purpose is more personal with Neville IMO. I am a firm believer in the theory that Neville was a witness to his parents torture. Since that was the crime that Barty Jr. was convicted of I can see him having special interest in Neville and what Neville may or may not remember. A thought just occurred to me that is a little off the track I started from but seems interesting to me also. Is there ANY possibility that Barty Jr. may not have actually been involved with the torture of the Longbottoms? I'm not saying he is/was an innocent saint but what if he was just on the fringe of the Voldemort crowd and was charged just to discredit his father? What if Neville was the only witness and was memory charmed not for his own protection but to keep him from ever being able to say that Barty Jr. was innocent? Audrey (who believes that Crouch!Moody is second only to Snape in intrigue and personality facets and hopes that Real!Moody can/will be half as interesting) From julie.k.stahlhut at alum.mit.edu Fri Sep 13 02:53:41 2002 From: julie.k.stahlhut at alum.mit.edu (Julie Stahlhut) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 02:53:41 -0000 Subject: Apparating on Hogwarts grounds Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43973 I don't really see anything that says it's impossible to learn to apparate on Hogwarts grounds, or that Hogwarts couldn't possibly offer any instruction in that art. I've always interpreted the text to mean that only *unauthorized* apparation was forbidden (presumably prevented by charms). As an analogy, a high school may offer a driver's education class but not permit students to drive or park a car on the grounds just because they're licensed; the school might have regulations that, for example, only seniors could do so, even if some sophomores and juniors are old enough to get a license. Also, I assumed that the test that permitted one to apparate at will was not administered at Hogwarts. Again, in the U.S. you normally take your driver's test at a state department of motor vehicles office; do similar offices of a local or national agency administer this test in Britain? If so, that kind of analogy in the wiz-world would make sense too. Julie From niemuthervin at worldnet.att.net Fri Sep 13 02:54:02 2002 From: niemuthervin at worldnet.att.net (animagi_raven) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 02:54:02 -0000 Subject: Why Hagrid STILL Won't Be Allowed To Do Magic Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43974 A raven circles vulture-like over the Quidditch pitch and then decends and lands on one of the goals. There is a shimmering and then a man dressed in a large black cape and red robes is hanging from the goal fifty feet in the air. "Oh, drat. Well, I have two things to add this thread: Hippogriff and Draco The MoM might now consider Hagrid a repeat offender and clearing his name could be even more difficult. I had always thought that the MoM would link his raising of the acromantula Aragog during Riddle's tenure at Hogworts and `the Buckbeak Incident' because, in their opinion, it would show a continuing trend of Hagrid putting others at risk of dangerous creatures. Maybe the Buckbeak incident was bigger than it appeared to the trio because of this. Maybe the flobberworms were ordered by Dumbledore because he didn't want another incident - he might have been using up too many favors at the MoM to keep Hagrid out of Azkaban. (It was the previous year that he had to get Hagrid out of Azkaban.) Continued incidents with dangerous beasts would indicate that Dumbledore could not keep an adequate watch over Hagrid and the MoM would be forced to step in and take some more extreme action. I think I may have started the `stoned' mistake with my parenthetical statement in my previous post. I tried to keep to canon right up to that point then slipped. as Eloise pointed out (#43920 Wed Sep 11, 2002 9:56pm): >Well, Myrtle was just *dead*, not turned to stone, just as Mrs. Norris, >Hermione and the other attacked students were inanimate, but *not* literally >turned to stone. Some animal poisons do cause a rigid paralysis so poison from an acromantula could (maybe, possibly) cause a rigid paralysis described in CoS (FB says that they have a `poisonous secretion' (FB, p. 1)). Therefore it could (maybe) be blamed as the cause of death of Myrtle if you don't look too close for bite marks from a 2-meter (6-foot) spider. I need to look up and see if there is any reference to others being injured. It seemed like there were vague references to a period of anxiety but I did not remember anything other than Myrtle's death which is why I kept it limited to that. I see that since I have been working on this post Gray Wolf and bb_mn have both posted on poisons and other student attacks. I will leave that to them Thanks guys! If I may summarize how I see the chain of events during that time: Tom Riddle opens the Chamber of Secrets and finds, among the contents, the basilisk. During subsequent visits (at night?) two things happen: 1) he stumbles across Hagrid and the Aragog 2) he lets the basilisk out for a breath of fresh air as a sort of 16- year-old-male power trip. The basilisk walks backfire when Myrtle is killed, the rumor of the Chamber being opened is started, and students will not be allowed to stay over break. Since examining the Chamber's secrets are his primary goal he needs to find a `patsy' for the death of Myrtle so that the death can be solved and he can stay at Hogworts. He stakes out Hagrid's spider lair and `discovers' him. Meanwhile Headmaster Armando Dippet is facing a possible catastrophe during his tenure. A student is petrified and there is a rumor that the Chamber of Secrets has been opened. Then Riddle turns up with Hagrid who does not deny raising the acromantula. Hagrid is blamed for the death, expelled, and the Headmaster tries to write-off the Chamber as just a rumor. The headmaster then secretly waits for another death but it never comes so he convinces himself that Hagrid was responsible. The facts do not ring true to Dumbledore who, although he has to agree that Hagrid is guilty of *something*, does not think he or the acromantula are guilty of murder. He therefore arranges a position for Hagrid to be trained as gameskeeper and be kept close to Hogworts where he can keep an eye on him (he probably even suspects that Hagrid is half-giant by this point, too). This is accepted because Dumbledore threatens to vocally raise objections and keep the case open and the Chamber rumor going. How is that (besides not concise)? A winded Animagi_Raven (pant, pant) asks if someone can go get Madam Hooch, please, to get me down now? From candlewick4 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 13 05:08:36 2002 From: candlewick4 at yahoo.com (candlewick) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 22:08:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Professor Trelawney's First Prediction In-Reply-To: <160.13bea35b.2ab2c773@aol.com> Message-ID: <20020913050836.24631.qmail@web12407.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43975 --- millergal8 at aol.com wrote: That is what a spy is > for, gathering inside information and passing it on. > Pettigrew would be a > logical choice, but I really don't see him as being > "in" on top government > business, and this surely isn't the kind of thing > that would be bandied about > to the press. Didn't Pettigrew hear about the prediction when he was Scabbers, and Harry was telling Ron about it with Scabbers present? Candlewick- who doesn't have time for this list, but is now addicted - alas! __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Fri Sep 13 07:06:31 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 07:06:31 -0000 Subject: Hufflepuffs (WAS:Neville and the sorting hat) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43976 Gail Bohacek wrote: > There seems to be a bias against the illustrious Hufflepuff House > (*cough*fyrewood*cough*) and I'm wondering why is that? > > Could somebody please tell me where Hufflepuff got this bad rap? > And, in general, why are the qualities which Hufflepuffs are said to > possess not valued like the others? > > > -Gail B. who is going off to have a good sulk. Hufflepuff gets a bad rap in the books, Gail, right at the begining.This is what canon says about them: Draco says: "imagine being in Hufflepuff, I think I'd leave, wouldn't you?" but of course this is Draco we're speakng about, who doesn't understand loyalty. At that point, however, we *don't* know him (although we've concluded he's a stupid classist a few lines before), but he gives no reason about wy Hufflepuff is so bad.Harry doesn't, either, so later he asks Hagrid about the houses. Hagrid's answer (about Hufflepuff) is: "Everyone says Hufflepuff are a lot o' duffers, but --" "Better Hufflepuff than Slytherin, There's not a single witch or wizard who went bad wwho wasn't in Slytherin. You-Know-Who was one." Notice that, although Slytherin is definetely placed as the baddies' house, Hagrid (who by now is placed in the "good guys") actually doesn't refute the "they're a lot o' duffers", and thus both good and bad guys agree on this... sort of. And sice the attention is neatly diverted from Hufflepuff into Slytherin, you may remain wth the impression that they *are* a lot o' duffers. I certainly did, the first time around, although when I got to the sorting hat, my perceptions changed somewhat. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Fri Sep 13 07:18:49 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 07:18:49 -0000 Subject: Apparating on Hogwarts grounds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43977 Julie Stahlhut wrote: > I've always interpreted > the text to mean that only *unauthorized* apparation was > forbidden (presumably prevented by charms). > > Julie No, canon (and in this case, Hermione) clearly states that *no apparation* is possible at Hogwarts grounds -be it authorized or unauthorized is beside the point. Check, in the books, the different times Hermion insists that apparating is impossible: no mention is done to needing a special permit from Dumbledore, or any other form of authorizaton, to apparate in Hogwarts. It is simply impossible, due to the protective charms that have been set up. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From pat_mahony at hotmail.com Fri Sep 13 09:17:30 2002 From: pat_mahony at hotmail.com (The Kirk) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 09:17:30 -0000 Subject: Lucius Malfoy (was Re: Potterverse Secret Code revisited) In-Reply-To: <018b01c25ab3$1aa40d80$79a0cdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43978 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > Lucius Malfoy (6) good??? Well, maybe he will make a big mistake somewhere along > the way and aid the side of good. Can't be just the "good" guys who make > mistakes. Is there anyone else out there that sees Lucius as a contradiction? The man has influence: money, and he is able to scare one of wizard committees (I forget what it's called) into convicting Buckbeak, not to mention being able to persuade all the governors to suspend Dumbledore. Yet this is the same man seen grovelling in the graveyard. I think Richelle is right in saying that Lucius unintentionally aids the side of good: I think by trying to overturn Voldemort, and began the big bad himself. Especially if he discovers a weakness in Voldemort. Lucius splits the Death Eaters into two competing factions, making it easier for the good guys to defeat all of them. I think it fits in nicely: that disorder will breed disorder. Pato Makarni, who is sometimes Roo, sometimes Pat Mahony, sometimes. . . PS Beware the Sugar Gliders From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 13 14:38:16 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 14:38:16 -0000 Subject: Hufflepuffs (WAS:Neville and the sorting hat) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43979 It seems to me that the reason Hufflepuffs gets a bad rep among the students at Hogwarts is that most adolescents haven't learned to value "non-glamorous" virtues like diligence, loyalty and fairness. These are the sort of thing that people appreciate more as they grow older and move into the adult world. I bet that the teachers (except for Snape ) are quite fond of the Hufflepuffs -- a bunch of well-behaved kids who always do their homework and never get obnoxious in class. And I would think that out in the professional world, most employers would rather hire someone who's hard-working and loyal than someone who's, say, recklessly brave or ruthlessly ambitious. I would also expect that of all the houses, Hufflepuff would be the one least likely to produce Death Eaters. Courage, intelligence or ambition won't necessarily prevent you from being a sadistic, power-grubbing bastard, but a strong sense of justice probably will. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Sep 13 08:21:59 2002 From: MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM (mitchbailey82) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 08:21:59 -0000 Subject: Apparating on Hogwarts grounds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43980 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Grey Wolf" wrote: In repsonse to Julie Stahlhut' post: > No, canon (and in this case, Hermione) clearly states that *no > apparation* is possible at Hogwarts grounds -be it authorized or > unauthorized is beside the point. Check, in the books, the different > times Hermion insists that apparating is impossible: no mention is done > to needing a special permit from Dumbledore, or any other form of > authorizaton, to apparate in Hogwarts. It is simply impossible, due to > the protective charms that have been set up. > > Hope that helps, > > Grey Wolf Now Me: Also in POA when Snape's in more than a fowl mood about Sirius escaping he shouts (understatement of the year I think ) at Fudge that you apparation is not possible in Hogwarts - now I don't see him shouting this to the MOM if it is not true ? no matter how much of a bad mood he's in. Also Dobby - I know a few people wonder how Dobby could have seemingly used apparation at the end of COS however it is never stated that he did - he could have just turned himself invisible. Michelle From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Sep 13 17:22:28 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 17:22:28 -0000 Subject: Apparating on Hogwarts grounds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43981 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "mitchbailey82" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Grey Wolf" wrote: > In repsonse to Julie Stahlhut' post: > > > No, canon (and in this case, Hermione) clearly states that *no > > apparation* is possible at Hogwarts grounds ...snip... > > > > Grey Wolf > > Now Me: > > Also in POA when Snape's ... at Fudge that you apparation is > not possible in Hogwarts - ...snip... > > Also Dobby - I know a few people wonder how Dobby could have > seemingly used apparation at the end of COS however it is never > stated that he did - he could have just turned himself invisible. > > > Michelle bboy_mn ponders: I can't prove this position but I've always wondered if the real apparation rule was that you could not apparate INTO and OUT OF Hogwarts grounds but that apparation within the boundaries was possible. Apparation from Hogwarts to Hogsmeade =NO; apparation from Great Hall to Dumbldore's office =YES. Of course, that brings up the question; why haven't we seen anyone do this? Apparation within the boundaries could explain what Dobby did. But I'm more inclind to think that Dobby with his own special brand of magic doesn't technically apparate. It is an apparation-like magical transportation from one place to another, but isn't really the same magic or the same method as human apparation. A very valid alternative regarding Dobby, as pointed out by Michelle, is that he didn't apparate. I think Dobby apparating is the common assumption, but we have no proof of that. So it is VERY MUCH possible that Dobby just became invisible and flew/levitated or walked out of Hogwarts castle. Personally, I believe in the special form of elfin magic theory that allow elves to perform an apparation-like action. But I have to admit, the available evidence is very much in favor of Michelle's theory. I do see a flaw in Michelle's theory but I also have an explaination that could explain this potential flaw. When Dobby is visiting Harry in the hospital after the rogue bludger incident, Harry is holding Dobby's wrist when Dobby disappears, and Harry is left holding a hand full of air. That would seem to imply that Dobby physically vanished (apparated) as well as visually vanished. However, there is no reason why Dobby couldn't have shrunk himself down to the size of a gnat, making him functionally invisible, and then flew out of the room. As far as students learning and practicing apparation, all they really have to do is step outside the front gates of Hogwarts and they can practice. I'm guessing at first they just apparate a distance of five feet, then move to apparating from one room to the next, then from one building to the next (all outside Howarts grounds). Once they reach that stage, they probably start apparating over longer distances (quater mile/half mile) but still line of sight. In other words, from mountain top to mountain top where the students and teachers can see both mountain tops (starting point and destination). Then they gradually expand the distance from there. Having to be outside Howarts doesn't seem like that big a problem to me. bboy_mn From rlundgren at gov.mb.ca Fri Sep 13 15:56:42 2002 From: rlundgren at gov.mb.ca (freya122000) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 15:56:42 -0000 Subject: Lilly Potters Name Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43982 Hello everyone: I have heard that Lilly's name is Evans a few times now I was just wondering where that comes from. Also I belive the Potter's money was gotten by being Unspeakables. That was a group of MoM workers Arthur mentioned in GoF. Freya From millergal8 at aol.com Fri Sep 13 17:46:31 2002 From: millergal8 at aol.com (millergal8 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 13:46:31 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Professor Trelawney's First Prediction Message-ID: <0C4DE9C3.34339728.0C0944C5@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43983 In a message dated Fri, 13 Sep 2002 12:08:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, candlewick4 at yahoo.com writes: > Didn't Pettigrew hear about the prediction when he was > Scabbers, and Harry was telling Ron about it with > Scabbers present? Well, yes, I suppose that could possibly be true, but what I meant by that statement was that Pettigrew didn't overhear the rumor 12 years ago, in time to warn v'mort. Someone else, pressumably a spy working within the upper levels of the ministry would have been in a better position to pass on info than Pettigrew. Pettigrew was not the most powerful wizard in the world, so I really cannot see him as being in the know about ministry business. He may have heard this from the Potters, but I don't really think so. I am more inclined to think that either the info accidently leaked out (in which case pettigrew could have been the one to tell v'mort), or there is a spy we don't know about yet. Sorry about any confusion. Christy From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Fri Sep 13 18:08:02 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 18:08:02 -0000 Subject: Lilly Potters Name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43984 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "freya122000" wrote: > Hello everyone: I have heard that Lilly's name is Evans a few times > now I was just wondering where that comes from. Also I belive the > Potter's money was gotten by being Unspeakables. That was a group of > MoM workers Arthur mentioned in GoF. Freya JKR revealed in an interview that Lily's single name was Evans. Check the goat pen (http://www.geocities.com/aberforths_goat/). Search for Evans... that should work. Oh, and a little tidbit: I don't really think it's important (although some people do), but Severus Snape is a word play of Perseus Evans. Also in an interview, JKR said that James' money is inherited. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From rvotaw at i-55.com Fri Sep 13 17:57:56 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (rvotaw at i-55.com) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 12:57:56 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lilly Potters Name/ MoodyCrouch as teacher Message-ID: <1535972.1031939876515.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43985 Freya writes: > Hello everyone: I have heard that Lilly's name is Evans a few times > now I was just wondering where that comes from. Evans was JKR's answer to an online interview question "What is Lily Potter's maiden name?" Audrey writes: > IMO Crouch!Moody was accomplishing a few things with his > performance. He WAS acting the good teacher to preserve his cover > but he was also setting up the next generation of Voldemort victims > AND finding out a lot about Harry and Neville. > As to teaching them to resist the Imperious Curse, it appears to me > that it takes a natural talent to be very successful at resisting > it. Harry is the only one who seems to have the innate ability to > resist. I don't have the books with me right now but do any of the > other students improve? Even if they do, is Crouch!Moody hitting > them with the curse as hard as he can or is he giving them a false > sense of accomplishment? The way I see Moody/Crouch now that I know he's not Moody, is regardless of who he was, he is a born teacher. As a teacher, I know that some people are made to do it and some, well, aren't. Moody/Crouch is a perfect example of a born teacher. He taught interesting lessons, didn't beat around the bush with lots of fancy frills, but got right to the point, and made it a lesson they would never forget. I also don't think he intended to teach the students to resist the Imperious Curse. He saw a teachable moment and ran with it. He hadn't expected Harry, or anyone else, for that matter, to resist his Imperious. After all, it took him years. And his father at least months. But the point is, once he saw Harry resist, he couldn't stop there. He had to know, he had to probe deeper and see if he could competely resist. And he did. Which was a phenomenal achievement. As for teaching the other students, I don't think it can really be taught. Moody/Crouch guided Harry's instinctual resistance, but he didn't really teach him to resist the Imperious. Harry's resistance was just there. Naturally. Richelle ---------- Hello everyone: I have heard that Lilly's name is Evans a few times now I was just wondering where that comes from. Also I belive the Potter's money was gotten by being Unspeakables. That was a group of MoM workers Arthur mentioned in GoF. Freya ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From fyredriftwood at yahoo.com Fri Sep 13 18:48:53 2002 From: fyredriftwood at yahoo.com (Fyre Wood) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 18:48:53 -0000 Subject: Potterverse Secret Code revisited In-Reply-To: <018b01c25ab3$1aa40d80$79a0cdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43986 "Richelle Votaw" wrote awhile ago: > Well, it took me a while, but I've taken Melody's (I think that's who thought this up) secret code based on vowels and run with it. I do love secret codes. However, I've made a few changes. Here are the new rules: > > 1) You must use the fullest known form of each person's name, you can't pick and > choose a first or last name. > 2) You cannot assume a name is a nickname and choose another name unless canon > supports it (i.e. Ron becomes Ronald but Bill does not become William, etc.) > 3) Y is counted as a vowel > > And here is how the code works: > > An even number of vowels in the full name constitute good. > An odd number of vowels in the full name constitutes evil. > > There are, however, some exceptions. Evil isn't always evil. It's sometimes a good person who inadvertantly aids evil. Same thing for good. Could be that a person who was really bad "messes up" and aids the good side unintentionally. > > I'll go through as many names as I can think of here: > Name (# of vowels) good/evil > > Percy Weasley (6) good > Fred Weasley (5) evil > George Weasley (7) evil > Ginny Weasley (6) good ________________________ Fyre Wood (ME) replies =) This is where it gets tricky. Fred and George are both coded in this version as "evil" which I believe... since they'd probably aid them in some way like Richelle originally mentioned awhile back. THe idea of Percy being good shocks me, as does Ginny. If we break Richelle's newer idea and do their names as most liklely given on their birth certificates: Percival Weasley (7) EVIL Virginia Weasley (8) Good (BUGGER!) Ginny should have evil next to her name because she aided Tom Riddle when the CoS was opened. Richelle continued: (Well, the highlights of her LONG list) > Draco Malfoy (5) evil > Neville Longbottom (6) good > Pansy Parkinson (5) evil > Marcus Flint (3) evil > Oliver Wood (5) evil (once again, maybe not of his choosing, but alas) > Albus Dumbledore (6) good > Gilderoy Lockhart (6) good > Cornelius Fudge (6) good > Tom Marvolo Riddle (6) good > Lucius Malfoy (6) good??? ______________ Fyre Wood Replies: While being a loyal fangirl (yes I'm female) of Draco Malfoy, I do see the "Draco Is Evil" thing. And also being a member of N.I.N.E. (Neville is NOT evil), I was quite pleased to see that Neville is indeed good. ::cheers:: I do disagree with the idea of Gilderoy Lockhart being Good and Fudge being good as well. It just doesn't seem Right. Tom Riddle....ahh.... he was good until he took the path to the dark side. To quote Yoda from star wars: "Fear leads to anger anger leads to hate hate leads to suffering... and that is the path to the dark side..." I think that Tom Riddle had some fear of being alone in that Muggle orphanage and that lead to the anger of his father leaving him. His anger lead to hatred for Muggles, because that is what his father was. His hatred then lead to suffering, because during his reign of terror, he killed Muggles and Mudbloods. And that my friends, was Tom Riddle's path to the dark side. As for Lucius Malfoy being good?! Well, this code can't *always* be perfect. --Fyre Wood, who wishes she could be either a Jedi Knight or a Death Eater. From crussell at arkansas.net Fri Sep 13 18:51:07 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 18:51:07 -0000 Subject: Snape: What is he up to? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43987 In a previous post, I mentioned the fact that I found the character of Snape intriging. IMO, Harry is as confused about Snape as I am. After learning about the werewolf incident and James' rescue of Snape, I still do not feel satisfied that this is the root of Snape's ambiguous relationship with Harry. Now please let me apologize before I say this: I do not see the unrequited love scenario as being a plausible explanation either ( I know a lot of people out there do-but please don't hate me!). I just got to thinking (too much time on my hands- I guess)- are there anymore theories out there concerning Snape's ambiguous relationship with Harry other than the childhood grudge or unrequited love theories? I am really interested in getting more information on this particular subject. bugaloo37-who is really trying to figure Snape out. From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Fri Sep 13 19:15:21 2002 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 19:15:21 -0000 Subject: Fudge Fudge Fudge (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43988 Fudge Fudge Fudge (to the tune of Fun Fun Fun) Hear the original at http://www.foxlink.net/~bobnbren/1960s.html#F THE SCENE: Ministry of Magic. Enter CORNELIUS FUDGE FUDGE Dumbledore's here, and he says he needs to give me instruction Says Voldemort's back, bearing Curses that cause massive destruction But we Ministers here possess a great skill in obstruction So I'll just Fudge Fudge Fudge till the Dark Lord blows each wizard away Now, Severus Snape says he wants me to do arms inspection His Dark Mark's ablaze, a symptom of an evil infection He says two `n' two's four, but I somehow just can't make that connection So I'll just Fudge Fudge Fudge till the Dark Lord blows each wizard away The Potter lad claims that we ought to make a strike that's pre- emptive But that's too great a risk, it's a thing for which I have no incentive And if he is ignored , Voldemort just might remain inattentive So we'll Fudge Fudge Fudge till the Dark Lord blows each wizard away Fudge Fudge Fudge till my fudging causes greater delay .. Fudge Fudge Fudge till dementors put us all on display Fudge Fudge Fudge till the Dark Lord blows each wizard away . - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From nplyon at yahoo.com Fri Sep 13 19:51:56 2002 From: nplyon at yahoo.com (Nicole L.) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 12:51:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lily Didn't Have to Die/Trelawyney's First Prediction (was Re: Professor Trelawney's First Prediction) In-Reply-To: <1031930449.2946.94949.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20020913195156.63577.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43989 > sym_2_one at hotmail.com writes: > > << Voldemort wasn't > actually after the Potters as a family. He was > only after Harry. > James and Lily Potter died because they trying to > protect their son. >> To which, Christy responded: > > Hm, I don't know about this. V'mort doesn't say > that James and Lily both > didn't have to die, only Lily. I really don't see > why he would lie about > this. It really doesn't serve his purpose. V'mort > is quite similiar to > terrorists. They don't want to strengthen their > victims resolve, they want > to destroy them. Inventing something that will only > strenght Harry's love > for his mother doesn't exactly suit v'morts purpose > at the time. That "lie" > would give Harry more ammo to fight back. I > personally think James and Harry > were the only ones to die because possibly the > prediction was a Potter was > going to be V'morts downfall. Lily, not being a > blood Potter was therefore > safe. I had to look this up in canon to refresh my memory. It's Voldemort's speech from chapter 17 of PS/SS: "How touching..." it hissed. "I always value bravery...Yes, boy, your parents were brave...I killed your father first, and he put up a courageous fight...but your mother needn't have died...she was trying to protect you..." Voldemort doesn't exactly say that James *had* to die but because he specifically points out that Lily *didn't* have to, my interpretation of this statement is that Voldemort's intent was to kill James and Harry but not necessarily Lily. He did kill her when it became necessary for him to do so but had she handed Harry over without protest, I don't think he would have killed her. Therefore, this leads me to believe that there is something special about Harry and James that Voldemort felt the need to snuff out. Again, this seems to me to be further support for the idea that Harry is heir to something or that there is something unique about him, but that's a different discussion. ;) Christy said: > I think that perhaps DD may have been exaggerting a > bit there. Since sooo > many of her predictions are bogus, its just his > little way to inject a bit of > humor. And even if this was her first, it is the > sort of thing people would > hope for. Kind of like the light at the end of the > tunnel. I think a lot of people are assuming that Trelawny's prediction was that Harry would bring about the fall of Voldemort, but I don't really support this theory. True, Dumbledore does not tell Harry what that first prediction is but I don't think that proves that the prediction was that Harry would defeat Voldemort. Again, we know precious little about James and Lily. What if Trelawny made a prediction that had something to do with one of them? Maybe her prediction had something to do with what James was doing at the time. Maybe she predicted that the Potters would be killed because of it. If this were, in fact, her prediction, I don't think Dumbledore would tell Harry about it because he has not yet told him anything about what his parents were doing in the days before Voldemort's downfall or explained to him exactly why they needed to use the Fidelius charm to hide from Voldemort. There's something more to this than what we've learned so far. Voldemort and the Death Eaters seemed to have killed rather indescriminately and I don't think the big man himself would trouble himself over two particular wizards unless he had some reason for it. Now, I think Christy has a point. Dumbledore could have been making a dry statement as to Trelawny's success rate. Or maybe he has a reason for hiding the real number from Harry. We all suspect that he was not very forthcoming when he told Harry that he saw himself holding socks in the mirror of Erised, so maybe he's being evasive again. Maybe Trelawny's made hundreds of true predictions but it serves Dumbeldore's purposes better to pretend to take her predictions with a grain of salt. Maybe she's a true seer and in order to ensure that she is protected from Voldemort and the DE's, Dumbledore and his circle write her off as a fraud. Maybe the reason why Dumbledore always seems to know everything is because Trelawny tells him. I don't necessarily buy into this theory but I think an argument could be made for it. What if what Dumbledore said is the absolute truth and Trelawny has only made two predictions that have come true? To me, this would shoot down the thought that the first prediction was that Harry would ultimately defeat Voldemort. He hasn't done that yet, has he? The way Dumbeldore phrases the sentence leads me to think that the first prediction has already come true and he already knows that for fact: PoA Chapter 22: "Who'd have thought it? That brings her total of *real* predictions up to two. I should offer her a pay raise..." The emphasis on real is mine. What does he mean by real anyway? She makes all sort of predictions all the time and each and every one of them is presumably "real" as she certainly seems to think that she actually has the power of Sight. I take the "real" in the sentence to mean predictions that have proven to be *real* because they proved to be *true*. If this is the case, then I submit that the first prediction had something to do with James and baby Harry, not seventeen-year-old Harry. There's my opinion. Fire away, if you will. :) ~Nicole, who was jumping up and down like a giddy five-year-old after seeing the new CoS trailer last night. November is not going to come fast enough. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com From ksnidget at aol.com Fri Sep 13 20:00:06 2002 From: ksnidget at aol.com (ksnidget) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 20:00:06 -0000 Subject: Snape: What is he up to? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43990 bugaloo37-who is really trying to figure Snape out. wrote >are there anymore >theories out there concerning Snape's ambiguous relationship with >Harry other than the childhood grudge or unrequited love theories? I >am really interested in getting more information on this particular >subject. One explaination of mine has to do with the whole. "our newest celebrity" crack and the way Snape really seems to want that Order of Merlin award in PoU It is more of an overall psychological profile kinda thing, but it could be in part "childhood grudge" but it goes beyond just the James saving his life thing. I think that perhaps part of what Snape wants out of life is to be recognized. To be approved of and rewarded. Now he's got a problem. The biggest thing he is doing that he should get rewarded for (the whole spying on Voldemort and the courage that has to take) is not really something that he is likely to get awarded for. Dumbledore knows the truth about him. But I don't see much in the way of hero's welcome in that no matter how well he gets the job done. And I don't know if knowing in his heart he did a good thing is enough satisfaction for him. Now James got tons of recognition and that may have been part of the fuel to the childhood grudge. So this fits more in that side of the equation, but it isn't just a grudge based on a prank that went wrong kind of thing. But here comes little Harry "the Boy who lived" he gets fame and all that could come with it for defeating Voldemort. Is Snape going to get that kind of celebrity if his spying brought down Voldemort. I'm thinking not. So here is someone who possibly without having done anything directly to merit the honor, is getting it. Much like people in his past, in his mind, did. What Snape wants most (recognitions, celebrity, fame, honors) he doesn't get. Those that are getting them, particularly if they may not deserve them, are very annoying to him. And he is do damn honest to just play nice to the people he can't stand. Ksnidget From lacorelli at hotmail.com Fri Sep 13 18:28:59 2002 From: lacorelli at hotmail.com (TL) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 10:28:59 -0800 Subject: Trelawney's Prediction References: <1031930449.2946.94949.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43991 I don't know how well this floats with all the other theories about Trelawney's first correct prediction, but I've always assumed that Dumbledore was present when she went into a trance similar to the one Harry witnessed, where she doesn't have any memory of what she just said, and that it fell in line with information Dumbledore already had (perhaps that the heir of Griffindor would destroy the heir of Slytherin or something like that), and that's why Dumbledore credited it. As to Voldemort, I've always assumed that he had his own pet Oracle who made a similar prediction, thus setting him up for a nice Greek tragedy of self-fulfilling prophecy (not that I'm implying that Voldemort's seer was actually setting him up, just that as in early Greek tragedies, the attempt to avoid fate causes the person to bring about that which he tries to prevent). Dumbledore's spies or spy could have told him about Voldemort's seer's prophecy; two nearly identical (and unrelated) predictions would be far more believable than one. I hope this makes sense and isn't just a rehash of something someone else has said (that would be unintentional and embarrassing). Tamee From MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Sep 13 19:14:52 2002 From: MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM (mitchbailey82) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 19:14:52 -0000 Subject: Crouch Jr. and Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43992 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "fruhu" wrote: > Does anyone know if Crouch Jr. went to Hogwarts? > > /FruHuu Now Me: I don't have 100% prove but I see as highly likely that he did. We know that he was/is a more than an average wizard talent wise - he couldn't have done the unforgivable curses otherwise. I don't think it's in doubt that he did have a wizarding education. Of course Hogwarts isn't the only Wizarding School. However as Sirius said in GOF anything that could ruin Crouch Seniors reputation had to go. Also this goes the other way round that anything that would help his reputation would be done. I believe that Crouch would not have sent his son to a foreign school because it would seem as though he was shunning the UK wizarding teaching establishment - now this doesn't make political sense. It makes a lot more political and reputation building sense to send your son to the 'local' wizarding school and since Hogwarts is the only Wizarding school in the UK (or it certainly seems to be) this is where I believe Crouch Senior would send his son - regardless of whether it was the best place school or not. Michelle From sugarkadi at aol.com Fri Sep 13 19:24:35 2002 From: sugarkadi at aol.com (sugarkadi at aol.com) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 15:24:35 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lilly Potters Name Message-ID: <72CE0269.1BEB39D6.0290C41F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43993 Grey Wolf wrote: > Oh, and a little tidbit: I don't really > think it's important (although some people do), but Severus > Snape is a > word play of Perseus Evans. Where did you hear that? Because that's the same thing with Riddle's letters rearranging to say I Am Lord Voldemort. Is Perseus Evans someone in British folk tales? Also, could a nickname for Perseus be Percy? Just some thoughts, I don't know where to go with them. ~Katey From crussell at arkansas.net Fri Sep 13 20:44:21 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 20:44:21 -0000 Subject: Snape: What is he up to? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43994 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "ksnidget" wrote: > What Snape wants most (recognitions, celebrity, fame, honors) > he doesn't get. Those that are getting them, particularly if > they may not deserve them, are very annoying to him. And he > is do damn honest to just play nice to the people he can't stand. > > Ksnidget First of all, thanks for the response. I do agree that recognition is something that Snape craves - and it may be the lack thereof that adds fuel to his deep-seated resentment of both James and Harry. Its the other side of this equation that bothers me. In other words: why does Snape go out of his way to protect Harry? Is he doing this, as Dumbledore has surmized to repay a life-debt to James Potter? This is a very simple solution to the question. But for some reason, I have a hard time accepting it. Is Snape saving Harry to save himself? By this I mean, does he have the same secret knowledge that Dumbledore has in regards to Harry's special abilities which if cultivated could be used to defeat Voldemort? I have stated before that I do not see Harry as being merely a "secret weapon" being manipulated by people who merely wish to save themselves but have no personal regard for Harry himself. However, when I made that statement, the people I was referring to were people who not only have protected Harry but have demonstrated a sincere affection for him-such as Dumbledore, Hagrid, and the Weasleys. But on the other hand, someone who acts as a protector but demonstrates no true regard for the object of his protection may simply be fulfilling an assigned position-assigned on the basis of the knowledge that preserving said object may be beneficial to oneself in the long run (could this protection be part of Snape's "assignment" from Dumbledore?). Once again, I am not promoting the idea of a pre-destined Harry. I am merely stating that Snape may recognize the special abilities of Harry (especially since he was able to withstand Voldemort when he was just a mere baby) and realize that he could be the WW best chance for defeating Voldemort. I know it looks like I have settled the debate at least for myself, but I would like to hear any other ideas that are out there. bugaloo37-who has a problem with over-analyzing; but I suppose that's why I'm here. From yrawen at ontheqt.org Fri Sep 13 20:57:44 2002 From: yrawen at ontheqt.org (yr awen) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 16:57:44 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lilly Potters Name References: <72CE0269.1BEB39D6.0290C41F@aol.com> Message-ID: <001901c25b68$358aa400$badef718@kzo.chartermi.net> No: HPFGUIDX 43995 Katey wondered (re: Perseus Evans = Severus Snape): Where did you hear that? Because that's the same thing with Riddle's letters rearranging to say I Am Lord Voldemort. Is Perseus Evans someone in British folk tales? Also, could a nickname for Perseus be Percy? Just some thoughts, I don't know where to go with them.<<<<<<<<<<<< Well, Perseus is a figure from Greek mythology, a hero who among other things killed a sea serpent and Medusa the Gorgon, the latter of which was a woman-type monster with snaky hair (as in, snakes for hair.) Snakes for hair, hm? Sounds interesting :-) The only thing with Severus being a possible "relation" to Lily is that Petunia never mentions him -- she reserves all her hate for her sister. Maybe Severus would be a cousin or more distant relation but still with the Evans name? Hm. ::ponders:: H.F. -- www.ontheqt.org eth.pitas.com Habent sua fata libelli. /Books have their own destiny.\ + terentianus maurus + [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Fri Sep 13 21:01:13 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb P) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 14:01:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily Didn't Have to Die/Trelawney's First Prediction In-Reply-To: <20020913195156.63577.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20020913210113.52397.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 43996 "Nicole L." wrote: I think a lot of people are assuming that Trelawny's prediction was that Harry would bring about the fall of Voldemort, but I don't really support this theory. True, Dumbledore does not tell Harry what that first prediction is but I don't think that proves that the prediction was that Harry would defeat Voldemort. Me: I don't know whether Trelawney predicted that Harry would be Voldemort's downfall (it may simply be that she predicted who was going to win the World Cup or something). We have to wait for JKR to say. I do, however, believe that Voldemort tried to kill Harry because he thought Harry would be a threat to him someday. Normally, the reasons for trying to get someone out of the way are that: a) they have done something to you in the past; b) they have done something to people LIKE you and so might reasonably be expected to try to do something to YOU (Aurors, for instance, go after dark wizards, so if you're a dark wizard you would expect Aurors to come after you); c) you have done something to them or to people close to them and they wish to get revenge. While Lily and James might have been Aurors (we don't know), if Voldemort was operating from reason "b," he could have killed them and left Harry an orphan. He wound up doing just that, but it didn't seem to be his original plan; he DID try to kill Harry, and as a result, he lost his power. If Harry wasn't his main target, why would he try to kill him? To salt the earth, as far as Potters are concerned, and prevent Harry from coming after him because of reason "c?" (Revenge for killing his parents.) It doesn't wash. Reason "a" doesn't either, not when we have the statement about Lily not needing to die. I think it's meant to be misleading that Voldemort says this about Lily; he doesn't say James "had" to die either, only that he put up a fight. I have assumed that he put up a fight because a maniac wanted to kill his son. Seems like a good enough reason for me, thank you very much. Perhaps Voldemort is a bit of a chauvinist and thought nothing of killing a man, but thought he'd spare a woman, and that's why he said Lily didn't have to die. (Frankly, Tom Riddle's attitude toward Ginny in CoS is rather chauvinistic; he is very condescending to her, and it seems in part to be because she's a girl.) There's really nothing to indicate James held any particular fascination for him. Both James and Lily were called "meddling" by Lucius Malfoy, but it seems possible that they were "meddling" by refusing to give up their son to be killed. Who would blame them? Harry was a baby. There was no reason for Voldemort to come after him unless he thought he would be a threat to him at some time in the future, and he decided to nip the problem in the bud. It's possible that he thought other babies of about the same age were also threats, and that he tried to kill them too, but we don't hear about this. All we know is that he was after the Potters, and that he told Lily to step aside so he could kill Harry. He might have killed James for one of the reasons I mentioned above, but those reasons just don't work for killing a baby. Harry was targeted because of his potential, IMO. Whether it's an accurate prediction that led Voldemort there that day is another story. We know that Tom Riddle put great store in prophecies. He tells Harry about the Chamber of Secrets only being opened when Slytherin's own true heir came to the school. He seems to revel in fulfilling a prophecy and evidently believes in Divination. Trelawney seems an unlikely person to give such a prophecy, given her track record, were it not for the fact that Dumbledore mentions her having been correct before. There must be a reason for his mentioning this. While there is humor in his saying he should give her a raise, now that she's given two accurate predictions, I believe the humor is there to mask the important fact that she's not ALWAYS full of it. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jferer at yahoo.com Fri Sep 13 21:04:41 2002 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 21:04:41 -0000 Subject: Apparating on Hogwarts grounds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43997 Steve:"I'm guessing at first they just apparate a distance of five feet, then move to apparating from one room to the next, then from one building to the next (all outside Howarts grounds). Once they reach that stage, they probably start apparating over longer distances quater mile/half mile) but still line of sight. In other words, from mountain top to mountain top where the students and teachers can see both mountain tops (starting point and destination). Then they gradually expand the distance from there. Having to be outside Howarts doesn't seem like that big a problem to me." Why would it be? All they have to do is take the seventh year students down to Hogsmeade or somewhere. I'm also sure the kids are taught Apparition (by Madam Hooch, perhaps?) just the way you guessed, because that's the way anybody learns anything, a little at a time. I think wizards are still people, so that wizarding skill is like other skills: You learn a little at a time; How well a spell is cast depends on the talent, practice and experience of the operator; different wizards' talents lie in different directions. From crussell at arkansas.net Fri Sep 13 21:05:16 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 21:05:16 -0000 Subject: Lily Didn't Have to Die/Trelawyney's First Prediction (was Re: Professor Trelawney's First Prediction) In-Reply-To: <20020913195156.63577.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43998 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Nicole L." wrote: > There's something more to this than what we've learned > so far. Voldemort and the Death Eaters seemed to have > killed rather indescriminately and I don't think the > big man himself would trouble himself over two > particular wizards unless he had some reason for it. > >Nicole, who was jumping up and down like a giddy > five-year-old after seeing the new CoS trailer last > night. November is not going to come fast enough. Absolutely- I just had to tell you how much I agree with this statement. Sometimes when I consider that Voldemort wanted to kill Harry because of certain things he knows about or suspects about Harry, it frightens me in regards to Harry's safety. The way I comfort myself concerning this issue is I choose to believe that whereas Voldemort may have some secret knowledge of Harry, he may not be seeing the whole picture. In other words, there may be things about Harry he has not discovered ( maybe something to do with having Lily's green eyes) that may bring about his downfall. As I have stated before,IMO, a belief in foreknowledge will not be able to protect you from things you cannot predict ( in the case of Voldemort, I sincerely hope so). bugaloo37-who is ready to see Voldemort fall > > __________________________________________________ > From crussell at arkansas.net Fri Sep 13 21:23:30 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 21:23:30 -0000 Subject: Lily Didn't Have to Die/Trelawney's First Prediction In-Reply-To: <20020913210113.52397.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 43999 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Barb P wrote: > > Harry was targeted because of his potential, IMO. Whether it's an accurate prediction that led Voldemort there that day is another story. We know that Tom Riddle put great store in prophecies. He tells Harry about the Chamber of Secrets only being opened when Slytherin's own true heir came to the school. He seems to revel in fulfilling a prophecy and evidently believes in Divination. > > > --Barb Thanks for reminding me of Tom Riddle/Voldmort's placing such great emphasis on predictions. Has anyone ever thought of the possibility that someone besides Trelawney made a prediction concerning Harry? Can it really be possible that there are no other seers in the WW? McGonagall stated that divination is a difficult art and that there were very few "genuine" seers. What if Voldemort had faith in a certain seer and was acting on his/her predictions? I know this is a big assumption but, IMO, it can be considered plausible-given what we know about Voldemort's controlling nature. bugaloo37 > > > From Malady579 at hotmail.com Fri Sep 13 23:17:00 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 23:17:00 -0000 Subject: WW schooling and British schooling Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44000 I was wondering something and I was hoping ya'll could help me. Do Hogwarts students pay tuition? And if not, then how can Hogwarts afford to stay running? Do you think the Wizard world is taxed? Do these taxes pay for more than just the school system? Is Hogwarts then a state school? I am not sure if this is just a cultural misunderstanding (between British and American ideas) or questions that are viable. Any thoughts? Melody From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com Fri Sep 13 23:28:37 2002 From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 16:28:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mother's Love (filk) Message-ID: <20020913232837.50387.qmail@web40310.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44001 Mother?s Love to the tune of _Landslide_ by Stevie Nicks http://burnish.net/audio.php Dedicated to my babies, who will always be my babies, even though they?re six and two. (The Scene: Godric?s Hollow, in one-year-old Harry?s bedroom. Lily is performing a spell that will protect Harry should she die saving his life. As she is doing so, she is pondering the unsure future for her son, knowing that he will not have it easy. Lily also shows her true Gryffindor colors during this scene by being willing to do what needs to be done even though she is afraid...the true meaning of courage.) LILY: I take my love and point my wand And I give this love that knows no bounds. I can see my reflection in my young son?s eyes. May this love-charm him surround. Oh, will my child know his mother?s love? Can this child within my arms rise above? Will his days be full of hurtful strife? Can he handle the challenge of his life? Mmhmmm, I don?t know... Mmhmmm, I hope so... Well, I?m so afraid of dying, but I know it?ll save your life. And if it saves you, you will save others, too... perhaps all wizard-kind. Yes, you?ll save wizard-kind. So... (She is now rocking a subdued Harry while humming during this guitar interlude) Though I?m so afraid of dying, It?s what I am willing to do My love?s never ending, time I am spending is precious here with you. Yes, my darling one, we two. So, here?s my love, little one, for the mountains you must climb if I?m not around. I can see my reflection in your bright green eyes... may this keep you safe and sound. And, if you see my reflection in your bright green eyes... Know I?m always with you now. NOTE: My interpretation of what?s been discussed before on the list. This song uses the theories that Lily performed some sort of spell for Harry?s protection and that there is a prediction that Harry will be the one to bring down Voldemort, thereby saving the Wizarding World. ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* "Tut, tut --- hardly any of you remembered that my favorite color is *lilac*. I say so in Year with the Yeti." --Gilderoy Lockhart, COS --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From williaka44 at aol.com Sat Sep 14 00:21:25 2002 From: williaka44 at aol.com (williaka44) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 00:21:25 -0000 Subject: How much do the Dursleys know? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44002 Please excuse me if this has already been addressed here, I am very new to the group. I would like to say that I do really enjoy it and it is addicting:-). I have been listening to the audio version of SS (read by Jim Dale), and I have canon to back it up. In chapter 2, the Dursleys are debating about whether to take Harry to the zoo and he offers that they could just leave him home. Petunia replies, "'And come back and find the house in ruins?' she snarled." (after Petunia suggests that they leave him in the car, Vernon replies)"That car's new, he's not sitting in it alone." What I'm wondering about is what the letter that Dumbledore wrote to the Dursleys said exactly. Obviously Petunia knows that the Potters' house was destroyed(she comments about it at a later point, but I can't remember where), but do they know why? Might they know about Voldemort and be afraid of the WW because he may come after Harry while Harry is in their care? Is that the reason that they hate Harry so much? I know this is a lot, but I noticed this for the first time this afternoon and I started to wonder. It certainly seems to support the idea of the secret-keeper charm having been at least conceived at the time of SS if the Dursleys are afraid to leave Harry alone. If anyone has any other thoughts, I'd love to hear them! -Karla (who thought she was the only person over 18 to like Harry for the longest time) From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Sep 14 00:46:28 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 00:46:28 -0000 Subject: WW schooling and British schooling In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44003 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Melody" wrote: > I was wondering something and I was hoping ya'll could help me. > > Do Hogwarts students pay tuition? > And if not, then how can Hogwarts afford to stay running? > Do you think the Wizard world is taxed? > Do these taxes pay for more than just the school system? > Is Hogwarts then a state school? > > I am not sure if this is just a cultural misunderstanding (between > British and American ideas) or questions that are viable. > > Any thoughts? > > Melody bboy_mn commnets: I think this is still one of those unresolved questions. It has come up before, and I think after discussion, the conclusion always ends up - [shrugs shoulders] who knows. But I'm willing to throw out some guesses- Founder Grants/Trust/Endowments- Some schools and other charitable/non-profit organizations have a trust or a lump sum grant of cash that they can't (that's can NOT) spend, but they can invest it and use whatever money or interest they make on investing the bulk amount. Perhap in the beginning the four founders of Hogwards provided an endowment, and the school has been living off this endowment for a thousand years. With an endowment like this one of two things will happen, either they will spend it down to nothing, or it will grow. An investment grown over 1,000 years has the potential to grow into a very substantial amount of money. An investment at a return of a mere 1% will double in about 70 years. So over a 1,000 years; best guess $1,000 @ 1% for 1,000 years = $22 Million; @ 2% = $380,000Million. I've always guessed that the Gringotts goblins were pretty shrewed business men, so I'm sure they could get a substantial return on any investment entrusted to them. Alumni Death Grants/Trusts/Endowments- Illustration- Harry really has no family (yet), and he has a substantial amount of money that could grow even larger over his lifetime. When he dies, having no family, he may choose to leave all his money to Hogwarts. So, in general, people can leave money in their wills. Alumni Living Grants/Trusts/Endowments- People just donate money to the school either as trusts or as operational grants. I've often wondered if the 12 members of the Board of Governors of Hogwarts are the 12 living people who have donated the most money to the school. Want to be on the board? Just donate a huge sum of money to the school. Although, if your family donated a monsterous sum of money, the heir of that family may get to continue on the board of governors. Service Grants/Trusts/Endowments- Maybe Hogwarts gets a public grant in return for looking after the Forbidden Forest, or other non-school related services they might perform. These are all very common things that happen to all schools public and private, so this is nothing special. TAXES- There must be taxes, somehow they have to pay the salaries of all those Ministry employees, so it's reasonable to assume that some portion of that goes to the ONLY school of witchcraft and wizardry in the UK. One problem with taxes, if you are a muggle born witch or wizard, your family has never paid taxes in the wizard world. So, does that mean they now have to start paying taxes, or are the taxes only on money/income and business that exist in the wizard world? Tuition- I vaguely remember Rowling commenting on this in a interview but can't remember when or where, and I'm pretty sure her comment didn't resolve the issue. There is no real indication that I have seen so far in the book that indicates tuition is paid. There are references to Harry needing money for school, but it's not clear whether that that money went for tuition or just general personal and school expenses. Additional speculation; maybe only advanced classes require tuition. Maybe only schooling beyong O.W.L. level requirews tuition. Again, I have absolutely nothing to support that. It's just a thought. So, after all that, let me make one thing crystal clear - I don't know; I don't think anyone knows. Sorry. bboy_mn From Vera.Nazarov at sjeccd.cc.ca.us Sat Sep 14 00:47:39 2002 From: Vera.Nazarov at sjeccd.cc.ca.us (Nazarov, Vera A.) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 17:47:39 -0700 Subject: [FILK] Something Saved My Life That Night Message-ID: <12ADCA37DA51824F9146213726CE136AAAFA1D@DO_EXCHANGE.sjeccd.cc.ca.us> No: HPFGUIDX 44004 to the tune of "Someone Saved My Life Tonight" by Elton John -- BACKGROUND: It is thirty years after the final defeat of Lord Voldemort. Neville Longbottom is Minister of Magic. Hermione Granger is Headmistress of Hogwart's. Ron Weasley and Hermione are married and have 13 children. Harry Potter can't find work in the Wizarding World - no one is willing to hire him because they feel it "just wouldn't be right" to be in a supervisory position over the famous Harry Potter. Harry, therefore, has embarked on a career as a lounge singer with Gilderoy Lockhart (memory restored) as his agent and Rita Skeeter as his publicist. SCENE: A dingy little cabaret in some no-name one-horse town. The sign outside reads "Limited Engagement: Harry Potter Sings His Life!" The club is nearly empty, very tatty and run-down. The few customers present are half-drunk and none of them are paying much attention. A single spotlight focuses on Severus Snape at the piano as he plays the opening chords of Elton John's "Someone Saved My Life Tonight." The spotlight expands and we see Harry striking a pose as he begins to sing... When I think of that fateful night: Greenish light, a high-pitched cackle, In my darkest dreams. Sirius said to Peter, "I'll decoy them away. You'll be secret-keeper, and we'll save our dear Lily and James." But things didn't turn out too great. And something saved my life that night, Voldemort. You almost had that curse on me, didn't you sport? You nearly killed me out of spite, One year old, a helpless child, My mother pleaded for my life But you would not be swayed, And for that final curse you paid An awesome price. You rolled the dice. Snake eyes! Too late they realized they'd been betrayed. The traitor: Peter, secret-keeper of Fidelius Charm. "He'll keep James and Lily safe from harm." Sirius thought, and never felt the least alarm. But Peter, the Death Eater (Damn it!) Went to Voldemort And gave him a complete report. Then he arrived. And now I'm stuck on Privet Drive. And something saved my life that night, Voldemort. You almost had that curse on me, didn't you sport? You nearly killed me out of spite, One year old, a helpless child, My mother pleaded for my life But you would not be swayed, And for that final curse you paid An awesome price. You rolled the dice. Snake eyes! Peter faked his death, and Sirius got blamed for the crime. Never even got a trial. Sentenced to Azkaban to do his time. Hagrid bummed his bike and brought me safe to Dumbledore. He left a note explaining me. Aunt Petunia gave a scream. Uncle Vernon's none too pleased. The Dursleys act like I'm diseased. But here I'll stay until it's time to be at Hogwarts... And something saved my life that night, Voldemort. You almost had that curse on me, didn't you sport? You nearly killed me out of spite, One year old, a helpless child, My mother pleaded for my life But you would not be swayed, And for that final curse you paid An awesome price. You rolled the dice. Snake eyes! Something saved, something saved, something saved my life that night... Something saved, something saved, something saved my life that night... Something saved, something saved, something saved my life that night... (repeat and fade as the spotlight narrows to focus on Harry's scar) Desultory applause. Snape's mouth curls in a malicious grin. --selkie _____ Upgrade Outlook? - Add COLOR to your Emails Outlook? is a registered trademark of Microsoft Corporation [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From the.gremlin at verizon.net Sat Sep 14 01:34:10 2002 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (ats_fhc3) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 01:34:10 -0000 Subject: Snape: What is he up to? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44005 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bugaloo37" wrote: > In a previous post, I mentioned the fact that I found the character > of Snape intriging. IMO, Harry is as confused about Snape as I am. > After learning about the werewolf incident and James' rescue of > Snape, I still do not feel satisfied that this is the root of > Snape's ambiguous relationship with Harry. Now please let me > apologize before I say this: I do not see the unrequited love > scenario as being a plausible explanation either ( I know a lot of > people out there do-but please don't hate me!). I just got to > thinking (too much time on my hands- I guess)- are there anymore > theories out there concerning Snape's ambiguous relationship with > Harry other than the childhood grudge or unrequited love theories? I > am really interested in getting more information on this particular > subject. > > bugaloo37-who is really trying to figure Snape out. In Message 43274 I posed my "wild theory" (because I can't stand the Snape+Lily thing) than Snape may have had a wife/lover and kid stashed somewhere, at the same time Lily and James were married, and had Harry. My idea was that Mrs. Snape and Severus Jr. died as a result of Snape's being a DE, and then being a spy. Then I went furthr and propesed the theory that wife/lover and kid died around the same time as the Potters, and that Snape hates Harry because Harry lived, and Snape's wife/lover and young'un didn't. I also thought of the theory that the reason Snape turned was simply because he decided that with wife and the pattering of little feet to worry about, he had too much to risk. -Acire, who is wondering if anyone else has a hard time associating "wizard" with "Snape". From ehawkes at iinet.net.au Sat Sep 14 02:10:56 2002 From: ehawkes at iinet.net.au (Emma Hawkes) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 10:10:56 +0800 Subject: What's in it for Witches? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44006 This is a lengthy post, especially as an introductory post - I can only say that I am very excited to have found HPforGrownups as I have been looking for detailed analysis of Harry Potter for some time. I have attached an essay I wrote in 2001 for a local fanzine, Fables and Reflections. If you want more detailed on Fables and Reflections (an excellent zine, if I do say so myself) you can get details at lilyc at iinet.net.au. Hoping to get to know you all, Emma Harry Potter: What's in it for Witches? Part of the attraction of the Harry Potter stories is that the universe which Rowling so lovingly describes is one of wish fulfillment. Harry arrives at Hogwarts to find that he is special and revered, that magic is real, that fabulous feasts literally materialise before him at the table, and that he has a totally unsuspected talent at a sport he had never previously heard of. Who could resist such a wonderful world? Other sorts of wishes are fulfilled at Hogwarts as well. To begin with, it is a world which is apparently almost without prejudice and discrimination.1 Aside from an understandable anti-Muggle sentiment (which closely mirrors fannish prejudices against mundanes), there is no overt prejudice in the world of wizards and witches. On the other hand, it may be that there are less obvious forms of discrimination in the magic world. I will not touch on issues of race here (other than to say that the black and asian Griffyndors make Rowling's magic world refreshingly multicultural), sexuality (Hogwarts is staunchly heteronormative), class (Hogwarts is very much an English public school) or the treatment of sentient non-human characters (other than to say that Hermione is clearly on to something when she protests the inequitable treatment of sentient non-humans who are not given the same rights as humans),2 but I would like to talk about gender in the Harry Potter series.3 The great joy of Rowling's universe is the fabulous use of incidental detail and descriptions of the wizardly world. These details give a fascinating glimpse of the structure of the magic world and it is possible to chart the working lives of some of the witches and wizards. In Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone, the following jobs are undertaken by adult human protagonists: Wizards Witches Nurse Robe Maker Gameskeeper Apothecary Wand Maker Innkeeper Teacher Teacher House Head House Head Headmaster Deputy Head Banker Dragon Tamer Civil Servant Dark Lord This is an interesting list. Witches have a limited range of employment possibilities, none of which stray too far from what is normal in contemporary Britain. Witches may have authority over children, but the top jobs are reserved for men (headmaster, Dark Lord). Although, frankly, I wouldn't hail a Dark Lady rather than a Dark Lord as a feminist break through, it would be nice if some women got to speak with authority or even work for the Ministry of Magic. So what are these witches doing with their time? They're certainly not career-driven professional witches. Consider, for example, Arthur Weasley's description of senior members of the Ministry of Magic. 'That was Cuthbert Mockridge, head of the Goblin Liaison Office... here comes Gilbert Wimple, he's with the Committee on Experimental Charms.... Arnold Peasegood, he's an Obliviator - member of the Accidental Magic Reversal squad, you know.... and that's Bode and Croaker... they're Unspeakables [from the Department of Mysteries].'4 While Bode and Croaker might perhaps be witches, the Ministry of Magic is certainly not a femocracy. The only witch shown working there is the incompetent and forgetful Bertha Jorkins. And witches are not spending their time with their children. With the exception of the overflowingly maternal Molly Weasley, very few of them are full-time caregivers or mothers. The Harry Potter books abound with orphaned, semi-orphaned and uncared-for children (as with most children's literature).5 Most mothers are either dead (Lilly Potter, Nevil Longbottom's mother, Bartie Crouch's mother) or curiously absent (Narcissa Malfoy).6 What else might be occupying these witches? It is possible, I suppose, that they are busy with housework. Hogwarts has House Elves and so do well-established, wealthy, magical families, but there is a definite class edge to the presence of House Elves. The Weasleys don't have a House Elf at The Burrow and apparently all the housework is undertaken by Molly Weasley. Perhaps we are to assume that the apparent absence of witches from the public sphere results from the witches dedicating their efforts to better housekeeping? (If we are to assume this, then the otherwise inexplicable popularity of Gilderoy Lockhart, writer of household instruction books and five times winner of Witches Weekly's Most-Charming-Smile award, starts to make sense.) Or perhaps the witches have not retreated into the private sphere. Perhaps there are simply fewer witches than wizards. While the incomplete list at Harry's sorting names nine boys and eleven girls (plus two of indeterminate gender), other details of the wizardly world suggest that there are just not many witches around.7 Not only do we see more wizards than witches, but we see more monuments to wizards than witches. Most of the talking paintings at Hogwarts show men; almost all the named ghosts are men. The magic world teems with unmarried men (perhaps unable to find an elusive witch?). If magic is somehow linked to androgens, then the Weasley family structure makes more sense. The ratio of six boys and one girl is, perhaps, indicative of the ratio of wizards to witches in Rowling's magic world. It's not possible to make a final judgment about the Harry Potter series, as it is incomplete, but here's hoping things work out better than that for the witches in Rowling's wonderful magic world. Notes 1. J.K. Rowling described the relationship between the Muggle world and the magic one as on of '[u]neasy co-existence'. 'Harry discovers that life in the magical world mirrors, to a great extent, life in the Muggle world. We are all human. There's still bigotry and small-mindedness (unfortunately).' J.K. Rowling, Interview with Scholastic, 16 October 2000, http://www.scholastic.com.harrypotter/author/ index.htm. 2. Rowling explores the status of sentient non-humans at length in Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them (Great Britain: Bloomsbury, 2001). 3. I don't want to get involved in the acrimonious and fairly futile debate over Rowling's representation of girls at Hogwarts, which essentially devolves to an argument about whether Hermione is a prig or a heroine. Christine Schoefer, 'Harry Potter's Girl Trouble' (January 12 2000), archived at http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2000/01/13/potter/index.html. 4. J.K. Rowling, Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire (Great Britain: Bloomsbury, 2000) 79. 5. Alison Lurie, Not in Front of the Grown Ups: Subversive Children's Literature (Great Britain: Cardinal, 1990). 6. Most fathers are dead (James Potter, Nevil Longbottom's father), in hiding (Sirius Black) or evil (Lucius Malfoy, Bartie Crouch). 7. The sorting hat names nine boys, eleven girls and two children of indeterminate gender in Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone. In Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire it names six boys, four girls and one child of indeterminate gender. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mlacats at aol.com Sat Sep 14 05:35:41 2002 From: mlacats at aol.com (mlacats at aol.com) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 01:35:41 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron: GoF: Betrayed or Jealous? Revisited. Message-ID: <137.140d5beb.2ab424ad@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44007 In a message dated 09/08/2002 8:50:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time, bboy_mn at yahoo.com writes: > This is the one and only place where Ron get's to express his own > feelings and speak for himself. From now until the end of the first > task, all reference to Ron's feelings and motivations are from third > parties. I think we will get more accurate clues from Ron's own words > than from other people's opinions. > > Metaphorically speaking, this isn't about Harry reaching a certain > destination; it's about Harry not inviting his best friend along for > the ride. > > In general, there can be no denying that Ron had elements of jealousy > and envy, but I am concerned with the very narrow confines of this one > event. > > Finally, I'm not trying to dictate reality here, I'm simply taking a > poll. A poll in which I know I will always be in the minority opinion. > I'm just curious how big that minority is. > > So, what say you all; jealousy or betrayal? > Your take on this issue of Ron's jealousy is an interesting one, bboy, but I'm on the side of jealousy, if you're taking a poll. I think there are feelings of betrayal too (although I think Ron should believe Harry when he says he didn't put his name in the Goblet!) ....but the seeds of jealousy go very deep with Ron, coupled with his feeling of inadequacy......I hate being poor........Must be nice having so much money that you forget about the Leprechaun's gold........etc. If I were Harry, I'd be bugged by these comment...they could get very old...and it could put a strain on their friendship. Anyway, mark one for jealousy. Harriet [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ksnidget at aol.com Sat Sep 14 13:12:48 2002 From: ksnidget at aol.com (ksnidget at aol.com) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 09:12:48 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape: What is he up to? Message-ID: <166.13c832b1.2ab48fd0@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44008 bugaloo37 writes: <> Back to the psychological assessment. Although the "there is deep magic at work here" is appropriate based on the whole nature of the series. On some level it could be a rising above the level of his rivals kinda of thing. After all standing aside while Harry gets killed would make him quite possibly just like the young Sirius Black that he despises. Step aside and let the evil thing kill someone you don't like. He want's to think that he is better than that, perhaps. One question we do not know about Snape is how long he was a true Death Eater. Did he go into it as a spy, or did something turn him back? How many really bad things did he have to do either as a true DE or as a spy to keep from blowing his cover? How much does that cause him to feel the need for atonement? Perhaps a need to not be a part of directly or indirectly the death of anyone else. Regardless of his feelings about the person. We don't know if his actions are Harry specific, or if he would step in and prevent the death of any student. Ksnidget. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Sat Sep 14 17:26:17 2002 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene Mikhlin) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 18:26:17 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What's in it for Witches? References: Message-ID: <017201c25c13$d666f1c0$978501d5@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 44009 "Emma Hawkes" wrote: > This is an interesting list. Witches have a limited range of > employment possibilities, none of which stray too far from what is > normal in contemporary Britain. Witches may have authority over > children, but the top jobs are reserved for men (headmaster, Dark > Lord). The trouble with the theories is that one counter-example is enough to refute them. I could say many words on the topic, but two will do for starters: Madame Maxime. Irene Mikhlin From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Sat Sep 14 17:42:03 2002 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (Marcus ) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 17:42:03 -0000 Subject: What's in it for Witches? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44010 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Emma Hawkes wrote: > Harry Potter: What's in it for Witches? Emma, First rule to remember when analyzing Harry Potter is POV. The books, except for the opening chapter of HP1 and HP2 are told entirely from Harry's POV. How many boys of Harry's age really notice females? If memory serves correctly, there were a number of Ministry witches involved in the woods under the Death Mark. I do not have my book with me, but I do remember at least one witch. You also have several professional witches outside of Hogwarts. Madame Rosmerta owner and operator of "The Three Broomsticks" is one. Rita Skeeter is another. Madame Malkin owner and operator of "Madam Malkin's Robes for All Occasions" is a third. So is the proprietor of the "Magical Menagerie." So I think there are a lot of career opportunities for witches, including homemaker. Marcus From divaclv at aol.com Sat Sep 14 18:10:25 2002 From: divaclv at aol.com (c_voth312) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 18:10:25 -0000 Subject: What's in it for Witches? In-Reply-To: <017201c25c13$d666f1c0$978501d5@oemcomputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44011 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Irene Mikhlin" wrote: > The trouble with the theories is that one counter-example is enough > to refute them. I could say many words on the topic, but > two will do for starters: Madame Maxime. > > Irene Mikhlin She's a good start. I'd like to add a few more words: ~Hermione. For all her faults, she's still very intelligent, a good friend, and a very well-rounded character. ~Quidditch, unlike most Muggle sports, is very co-ed. The Ravenclaw Seeker, all three Gryffindor Chasers, and if I recall several professional players are female. ~Not only are two of the Hogwarts house heads female, so were two of the original founders--remember, this was around the tenth or eleventh century, when the top two career choices for a woman was "wife" or "nun." If anything, the WW might be ahead on the equality game. ~Christi From jodel at aol.com Sat Sep 14 18:31:47 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 14:31:47 EDT Subject: What's in it for Witches Message-ID: <26.2dc237c2.2ab4da93@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44012 << Although, frankly, I wouldn't hail a Dark Lady rather than a Dark Lord as a feminist break through, it would be nice if some women got to speak with authority or even work for the Ministry of Magic. >> Er, Mafalda Hopkirk? Although I will happily concede that she wasn't mentioned until CoS. However you did miss "Authors of official school textbooks" in your list of professions for witches mentioned in PS/SS (Bathilda Bagshot's History of Magic). I would also modestly propose that Madam Pomfrey may in fact be the equivalent of a doctor, rather than just a "school nurse". At least as far as her functions are presented. I do not know what the drill is in a boarding school on either side of the Atlantic, or in a day school in Brittan, but in California, all a school nurse seems to be permitted to perform is basic first aid and holds the diagnostic authority to see a child removed from school grounds to somewhere they will recieve further treatment. S/he is not permitted to perform full medical treatment or to perscribe and administer medication. Madam Pomfrey does both. I believe that she is a full "mediwitch" on staff. As the series continues one notices more and more references to females in action within the WW. But their action is so taken for granted and the references to it are tossed off so cansually that it is sometimes only by a careful combing through the pronouns that you realize that a character referred to is female. (Case in point; Two of those "supurb" Chasers on the Irish team.) (As another note; somebody (not here) has claimed that the pointing out of Dean Thomas, Angelica Johnson and Lee Jordan as being of (stated or implied) African ancestry was an addition of the American hardback of SS, not present in the original UK hardback. Can anyone verify this?) I will agree that the surface narriative of the series so far presents a weirdly 1950s suburban culture insofar as a "woman's place" in her society goes, and just about every tiresome stereotype about "silly females" -- of any age--common to pre-adolescent boys is faithfully deployed. However, as soon as one looks below the surface it is evident that witches fully partcipate in nearly all areas of wizarding life. And this awareness is g radually increasing as Harry grows older. But, generally, this partcipation is still noticed in supportive areas rather than in positions of authority. Whether this indicates that the ww maintains a "glass ceiling" or whether Harry has simply not yet come in contact with just how full the partcipation of witches is in it, is yet to be seen. Given the pervasiveness of the female partcipation that we DO see, I suspect that Harry has simply not yet encountered the authoritative female figures of what he sees as "his" world. Which brings up the question; Can the series afford this sort of off-handedness? Is it necessary to hold a parade every time a female character is mentioned? Clearly the only female character who has been given any real degree of development so far is Hermione, but the male characters apart from Harry and Ron aren't in much better shape. There are simply more of them. Which is understandable in that the first people Harry noticed upon entering the ww were the other boys that he had to deal with. The series PoV is a tight focus through Harry's eyes. To date, Harry does not question the role of women in wizarding society. And Hermione, comfortably favored in her role of "top student of her year" is too busy battling on behalf of cats and hipogriffs, and House Elfs and half-Giants to be mounting any soapboxes on her own behalf any time soon. And I tend to suspect that if anyone does, (and I'm not counting it out by any means!) it will probably take Harry very much by surprise, and the person who does it may well be someone quite other than Hermione. Possibly someone nobody will expect. -JOdel From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Sat Sep 14 18:48:06 2002 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 18:48:06 -0000 Subject: Dementor Dan, Your Jailer (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44013 Dementor Dan, Your Jailer To the tune of Barnacle Bill the Sailor Can't find a good MIDI or RealAudio link ? this is the best I can do: http://music.barnesandnoble.com/search/product.asp?ean=743625527421 Dedicated to Gail Bohacek NOTES: (1) The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of the American Psychiatric Association (a classification of the mental illnesses) lists Major Depresssion on its Axis 1 (Clinical Disorders). It is assigned the code number 296 (the numbers facilitate insurance reimbursement) http://www.lightboxtherapy.com/?pg=sad_insurance (2) The 1965 sitcom My Mother The Car is widely considered one of the worst series of all time http://www.tvparty.com/recmothercar.html (3) Those two points seems totally unrelated to each other and to Harry Potter, don't they? THE SCENE: Before Azkaban Prison. Enter HAGRID, held in custody on suspicions of his involvement with the alleged Chamber of Secrets. He is accompanied by a CHORUS OF DEMENTORS, led by our soloist, DEMENTOR DAN HAGRID Who's that gliding `cross the floor? Who's that gliding `cross the floor? Who's that gliding `cross the floor? CHORUS Asks the detained Hagrid DEMENTOR DAN & (CHORUS) Howdy pard, I'm to be your guard (I'm/he's Dementor Dan your jailer) My robes are black and my heart is hard (We provide lots of work for tailors) I'll see to it your thoughts stay blue Terror will become d?j? vu Your little dog, I'll get him too, (Says Dementor Dan your jailer) HAGRID Will I ever be released? Will I ever be released? Will I ever be released? CHORUS Asks the detained Hagrid DEMENTOR DAN & (CHORUS) The likes of me will not set you free (I'm/he's Dementor Dan your jailer) I'd rather throw away the key (We love it as you grow staler) We don't like it when folks walk off Like that ol' scumbag Karkaroff Return him to our feeding trough! (Says Dementor Dan your jailer) HAGRID Can you show me mercy, sir? Can you show me mercy, sir? Can you show me mercy, sir? CHORUS Asks the detained Hagrid DEMENTOR DAN & (CHORUS) You use a word that I've never heard (Says Dementor Dan your jailer) Dementors repenters preferred (Start dwelling now on your failures) Depression time has just begun 296 on Axis 1 You'll be one blue son-of-a-gun (Says Dementor Dan your jailer) HAGRID I am guilty of no crime I am guilty of no crime I am guilty of no crime CHORUS Says the detained Hagrid DEMENTOR DAN & (CHORUS) You're not to blame, but it's all the same (To Dementor Dan your jailer) We torture Black though he was framed (We won't let him call his bailer) To those of us known as Dements We don't care if you're innocent It makes you more fun to torment (Says Dementor Dan your jailer) HAGRID What will happen now to me? What will happen now to me? What will happen now to me? CHORUS Asks the detained Hagrid DEMENTOR DAN & (CHORUS) "Abandon all hope who enter here" (Says Dementor Dan your jailer) You now gotta cope with Dementors here (Already you're looking paler) I'm closing down the open bar We're gonna watch the VCR Play tapes of My Mother the Car (Says Dementor Dan your jailer) Exit all, toward Azkaban. - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 14 19:52:12 2002 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 19:52:12 -0000 Subject: How much do the Dursleys know? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44014 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "williaka44" wrote: Karla writes: In chapter 2 [PS/SS], > the Dursleys are debating about whether to take Harry to the zoo > and he offers that they could just leave him home. Petunia > > replies,"'And come back and find the house in ruins?' she > snarled." > (after Petunia suggests that they leave him in the car, Vernon > replies)"That car's new, he's not sitting in it alone." > > What I'm wondering about is what the letter that Dumbledore wrote > to the Dursleys said exactly. Obviously Petunia knows that the > Potters' house was destroyed(she comments about it at a later > point, but I can't remember where), but do they know why? It's later in PS/SS, in the scene on the Island (Chapter 4)that Petunia lets slip they know how Harry's parents died - or at least that they know that the house at Godric's Hollow blew up. Might they know about > Voldemort and be afraid of the WW because he may come after Harry > while Harry is in their care? Possibly. But it's also possible that Lily Potter (nee Evans), who after all had a muggle background, had her body identified in the normal muggle way. In which case the UK procedure would have been for a policeman to come round to the next of kin to break the sad news. Muggles would have assumed the house blew up because of a gas explosion, and that the Potters died in the explosion. The fact that Harry was already at the Dursley's could have been explained by a few simple lies: for example that Petunia had agreed to look after him for a few days to give Lily a break. Or Dumbledore could have explained the whole thing in his letter - but Petunia specifically says Lily was 'blown up', whereas Lily was actually AK'd *before* the house blew up. To me, this suggests she doesn't know the exact details. > Is that the reason that they hate > Harry so much? I know this is a lot, but I noticed this for the > first time this afternoon and I started to wonder. It certainly > seems to support the idea of the secret-keeper charm having been at > least conceived at the time of SS if the Dursleys are afraid to > leave Harry alone. If anyone has any other thoughts, I'd love to hear them! > I think they're scared to leave Harry alone because it's dangerous *for them*. Funny things happen around Harry Potter. The kids at his primary school think he's 'weird', his hair grows back overnight, glass vanishes at the zoo, his teachers wig turns blue - who knows what Dursley possessions have ended up mysteriously vanishing, changing or being suddenly unworkable. Unless Petunia has a hitherto undisclosed soft spot for her sister's only child, I would have thought that discovering Harry is the prime target of an insane Dark Lord would have resulted in an instant trip to Social Services with the explanation that unfortunately they cannot control their nephew's strange behaviour and that he'd be better off in the care of the local council. [grin] Or them informing Hogwarts that they can darn well take care of Harry over the summer, too. [EBG] Me, I think Petunia is jealous of Harry, in the same way she was jealous of Lily. He's displaying exactly the same strange abilities as Lily throughout his early childhood - in her heart I think she's always known that one day the letter would arrive from Hogwarts and Harry, like his mother before him, would leave for a world she wasn't allowed to enter. Her parents obviously made Petunia feel that Lily was 'better' than she was: in a way, she's trying to make sure that Dudley *doesn't* suffer by feeling inferior to a magical relative. Vernon, on the other hand, simply hates anyone who is 'different'. 'Different', to Vernon, is effectively the same as 'criminal'. Vernon could have truthfully explained Harry's absence by saying he's also (like Dudley) gone to boarding school; instead he talks about St Brutus's Secure Centre for Incurably Criminal Boys. So, no - I don't think the Dursley's know any details about Voldemort. They may well have been told in the original letter that it's important that Harry stays with them. Quite possibly their attitude to Harry is not dissimilar to what Quirrel says of Snape - to paraphrase; the Dursley's hate Harry, but they don't want him *dead*. That being said - I don't think they'd risk their lives for Harry. Pipsqueak. (Yup, I'm back. In between revising for exams, that is. I dunno, swore I'd never take another exam when I graduated fifteen years ago, and here I am, studying again, honestly, you think I'd learn - err, oh yeah, that's exactly what I'm supposed to be *doing*!) From deejay435 at buckeye-express.com Sat Sep 14 14:39:14 2002 From: deejay435 at buckeye-express.com (Denise Jurski) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 10:39:14 -0400 Subject: CrouchJr teaching.Trelawney's first prediction/Voldemort's immortality References: <1031866351.5371.28796.m1@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001601c25bfc$7f95b8c0$6501a8c0@buckeyecablesystem.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44015 Candlewick asked >Ok, if this is the case, and I agree with your logic, >by the way, so...why did Fake!Moody teach Harry (and >all his other students, presumably) how to resist the >Imperious Curse? Voldemort tried to use it on Harry >in the graveyard and Harry was able to fight it >because he'd been given so much practice from >Crouch!Moody. Was Crouch!Moody just trying to be a >good teacher in order not to blow his cover? In response to: --- > I'm with you that > Quirrel could have been > a good DADA teacher before his Voldy-years. But as > to if he continued to > teach as well after, I'm left wondering this: What > would be his motivation > for teaching DADA well, after his Voldification? > He'd have to teach it > passably, at least, to remain at Hogwarts and keep > his cover. But I'd say he > has a lot of motivation to be a poor teacher. After > all, the more students > who are good at defending against the dark arts, the > higher the danger to > Voldy and the Death Eaters. One of Quirrel's > students might just be the next > super-auror who gets his start under his tutelage. > Best to keep them less > well informed, for his boss anyway. Now me again: That's a good question. The way I see it, there could be several answers. First, he could have been under a lot of scrutiny by Dumbledore. Not because Albus suspected him, but because he knew how very important it was for Harry and Co. to have the skills Moody/CrouchJr was sent to teach them. So it could have been just as Candlewick suggests, to keep his cover. But I think there might be more to it. Crouch Jr. isn't quite sane any longer. After spending a year in Azkaban, then however many years in hiding in his hated father's home, knowing that his mother died in prision for his sake his mind is most certainly a bit addled. There may have been an element of Hubris involved. "I can teach as good as the real Moody can!" Or "It doesn't matter what I teach the lad, he will loose because we are great." Now onto Trewlany: Phyllis added, after the great theory about Trelawney predicting Harry would be Voldemort's downfall: >I like this theory a lot, but it leads me to wonder who told >Voldemort about Trelawney's prediction (presumably it wasn't >Trelawney herself, unless there's a *lot* we don't know about her)? >Pettigrew is the best possibility, IMO. I like this point! It also paints Peter, IMO, as a lot more Evil!Pettigrew than he would have us believe. He would have Harry and via him, we readers, believe he only turned to Voldemort because he was afraid that Voldemort would win, and would get him anyway. He was only trying to protect himself. But if he did, not only betray the Potters by giving away the secret, but also by giving Voldemort reason to kill Harry in the first place Peter, as a lad, was full-on evil. There was no reason to roll over on that prediction. If he had any loyalty, or warmth, or caring for his supposed best-friends, he could have simply sat on that. But I'm with Phyllis, I bet he didn't. Now Phyllis again: >I also think that Voldemort already knows that he lost his >immortality as part of the rebirthing process. IIRC, in the >graveyard scene in GoF, he tells the DEs that he is willing to accept >a mortal body before chasing immortality again. So I don't think >this is the basis for the look of triumph in Dumbledore's eyes - I >think Dumbledore is triumphant because he realizes something that >Voldemort *doesn't* realize, and it has something to do with the use >of Harry's blood (because it's after he hears about Harry's blood >being used in the potion that Dumbledore exhibits that mysterious >triumphant look). Now that is a very good point. I had never put much thought into that statement of Voldemorts. Any thoughts, then, on what it is that Harry's blood is going to do to Voldemort? Denise From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Sat Sep 14 16:02:04 2002 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (=?iso-8859-1?q?Iris=20FT?=) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 18:02:04 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lilly Potters Name In-Reply-To: <001901c25b68$358aa400$badef718@kzo.chartermi.net> Message-ID: <20020914160204.78922.qmail@web21504.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44016 yr awen a ?crit : Katey wondered (re: Perseus Evans == Severus Snape): Where did you hear that? Because that's the same thing with Riddle's letters rearranging to say I Am Lord Voldemort. Is Perseus Evans someone in British folk tales? Also, could a nickname for Perseus be Percy? Just some thoughts, I don't know where to go with them.<<<<<<<<<<<< Well, Perseus is a figure from Greek mythology, a hero who among other things killed a sea serpent and Medusa the Gorgon, the latter of which was a woman-type monster with snaky hair (as in, snakes for hair.) Snakes for hair, hm? Sounds interesting :-) The only thing with Severus being a possible "relation" to Lily is that Petunia never mentions him -- she reserves all her hate for her sister. Maybe Severus would be a cousin or more distant relation but still with the Evans name? Hm. ::ponders:: H.F. -- www.ontheqt.org eth.pitas.com Habent sua fata libelli. /Books have their own destiny.\ + terentianus maurus + [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Hi, I'm new on this group, but it seems that I can tell you about "Severus Snape" turning possibly into "Perseus Evans". I don't know who made the anagram first, but I already read it in Flak Magazine (web site), in a page by Julia Lipman. Hope it helps, Iris --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en fran?ais ! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From alohamoira at yahoo.com Sat Sep 14 18:54:12 2002 From: alohamoira at yahoo.com (Aloha Moira) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 11:54:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Paralleling the past and the present In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020914185412.50523.qmail@web13003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44017 There's Nothing to It wrote a very long and interesting post about parallels between HRH and MWPP: >>>>> When paralleling the HRH era to the one of MWPP it is always assumed in the dynamic that Harry represents James, Ron is Sirius, Hermione is Remus, Neville is Peter and Draco is Severus. But I have a problem with some of these connections, especially the last two. >>>>> Paralleling Peter with Neville is easy and obvious as it seems there powers and how the teachers view them are the same however Neville is not really part of the trio and if Ron or Hermione were a werewolf then I can hardly see Harry asking Neville to join then in a little illegal animagi magic. Also Neville happens to have a backbone, even though he doesn't show it much it is there, and Peter clearly does not. I prefer to parallel Neville with Remus. Both probably terrified of going to Hogwarts and latching on to the first person that shows them kindness, Sirius or James for Remus and Hermione for Neville. And, now here's where I like my theory, both Remus and Neville bring with them to Hogwarts a terrifically bangy secret that they will go to any lengths to hide. (and a big snip of the rest of the post) <<<<< You made a really interesting point, however, I think there is too much other evidence of the parallel between Neville and Peter. As students (not necessarily as adults, though), they're both chubby (physical similarity), both less-than-powerful, and both have significant difficulty standing up to their peers, teachers etc. I know Neville *does* in SS/PS, but he seems to have a tough time doing it, doesn't he? They both also have relatively "weak" personalities, compared to the rest of their mates. Peter may not have been very good friends with *all* of the Marauders, as Neville appears to be better friends with Hermione, certainly, than he is with Ron and Harry; there's really no canon that tells us they were extremely close aside from the Animagi transformations and the Marauders Map. And in terms of those: when it came to the Animagi transformations, it was necessary to have a third Anmagus. James and Sirius needed to become large animals to keep Remus in line (and just barely, at that, Sirius says in PoA how many close calls there were). But it was also necessary to have a smaller creature to deactivate the Whomping Willow. If Hermione *was* a werewolf, as you've used as a parallel, and Harry and Ron needed a third person to join them, I am sure they would ask Neville, there's really nobody else they know and could trust. Of course, there are differences between Neville and Peter, most notably Neville's courage (although we don't really know how courageous/noncourageous Peter was or may be in the future. I think it can be assumed that he was in Gryffindor with the other Marauders, there must have been some reason to put him there). Personally, I think that JKR is going to use this initial similarity and minor, but important, difference to show how our decisions can affect the course of our lives; Neville is going to take the opposite path that Peter did, and this may (or may not) be a real turning point for the Light Side. He may even save Harry's life, just the opposite of what Peter did for James. I find it difficult to believe, as some do, that Neville will turn Dark; I think he has too much baggage related to Dark Wizards (ie, for what they did to his parents) to join them, even if Voldemort tempts him in the same way he tempted Wormtail. And I do think that this will be likely in future books. Anyway, just wanted to share my thoughts on why Neville/Peter *is* a valid parallel... but please, feel free to disagree with me more... :) ~ Aloha ===== Check out my fics at: www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Aloha_Moira/Potters_A_History http://www.thedarkarts.org/authors/amoira/AG.html (snippets reside in the Cookie Jar, filks can be found at Rhythm&Rhyme, all at www.fictionalley.org !) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com From alohamoira at yahoo.com Sat Sep 14 18:58:30 2002 From: alohamoira at yahoo.com (Aloha Moira) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 11:58:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What to adult wizards do?? In-Reply-To: <13.116780df.2ab1fdd8@aol.com> Message-ID: <20020914185830.51474.qmail@web13003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44018 Brenda W (midgiecat) writes: >>>>> What did the parents of James Potter do to leave him so much money? It's fine to say he inherited money, but where did it come from originally? Is there a wizard stock market? Do wizards own other real estate other than their own homes for rentals? If they trade only in wizard money, to make money from others one would have to perform a service of some kind, right? >>>>> So, again I was wondering......what do wizards like Lucius Malfoy, or the families of other Hogwarts students, do to earn wizard money? >>>>> I know this is entirely unsupported by canon, but I've always thought it would be a terrific twist if James's great great grandfather (along, perhaps, with the Black family patriarch) began Zonko's joke shop. A little bit of mischief seems to run in these families, doesn't it...? ~ Aloha ===== Check out my fics at: www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Aloha_Moira/Potters_A_History http://www.thedarkarts.org/authors/amoira/AG.html (snippets reside in the Cookie Jar, filks can be found at Rhythm&Rhyme, all at www.fictionalley.org !) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com From the.gremlin at verizon.net Sat Sep 14 20:11:26 2002 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (ats_fhc3) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 20:11:26 -0000 Subject: Snape: What is he up to? In-Reply-To: <166.13c832b1.2ab48fd0@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44019 > bugaloo37 writes: > > < why does Snape go out of his way to protect Harry? Is he doing this, > as Dumbledore has surmized to repay a life-debt to James Potter? The only two incidents in which Snape went out of his way to protect Harry, that I can remember, are the Quirrelmort/broom incident, and the Shrieking Shack one. Once could argure, however, that Snape had suspected Lupin was helping Sirius, and that Snape's hatred of Sirius prompted him to go after Lupin, to apprehend Sirius. Canon tells us that the Shrieking Shack is not seen on the Marauder's Map, so there was no way for Snape to tell that Harry and Co. were in the Shack as well. I'm of the opinion that Snape and Dumbledore talk a lot more than we are shown, or than Harry sees, so I think that if Dumbledore tells Harry that Snape has repaid his life-debt, it's the truth. > ksnidget wrote: > On some level it could be a rising above the level of his > rivals kinda of thing. > > After all standing aside while Harry gets killed would make > him quite possibly just like the young Sirius Black that he > despises. Step aside and let the evil thing kill someone you > don't like. He want's to think that he is better than that, perhaps. I like that idea. He hates Sirius so much, why would he want to be like him? > > One question we do not know about Snape is how long he > was a true Death Eater. Did he go into it as a spy, or did > something turn him back? How many really bad things did > he have to do either as a true DE or as a spy to keep from > blowing his cover? I think that Snape was a true DE for some time, then turned and became a spy. Dumbledore told the witches and wizards at the hearing that Snape was a DE, then turned. I don't know the exact phrasing. > > How much does that cause him to feel the need for atonement? > Now that is a very good question. Based on what evidence we have of what DEs did, Snape has probably killed and tortured witches, wizards, and maybe even Muggles. You have to wonder what kind of memories he's left with. > Perhaps a need to not be a part of directly or indirectly the > death of anyone else. Regardless of his feelings about the > person. Well, here's a thought: Snape and the rest of the WW know that Voldemort is after Harry. Snape has got to have *something* against V-Mort, so Snape's protecting Harry comes from a hatred of V-Mort. Snape can't stop V-Mort from killing random people, but perhaps he can help to stop V-Mort from killing Harry. > > We don't know if his actions are Harry specific, or if he would > step in and prevent the death of any student. > Ksnidget. > As a teacher, Snape would have to step in and prevent the death of any student-including Neville. You can't be a halfway decent teacher and just stand by and watch a student die. It looks bad to your employer. -Acire, who is missing her canon terribly, and wants someone to publish an uncensored biography of Snape From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 14 21:10:27 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 21:10:27 -0000 Subject: How much do the Dursleys know? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44020 Karla (williaka44)wrote: > What I'm wondering about is what the letter that Dumbledore wrote > to the Dursleys said exactly. Now me: I don't think it's clear (then again, is anything perfectly clear in the Potterverse)? When Hagrid rescues Harry from the Hut on the Rock and tells Harry he's a wizard, Uncle Vernon says "We swore when we took him in we'd put a stop to that rubbish...swore we'd stamp it out of him!" (SS, Ch. 4, p. 53 US ed.). Which implies that Dumbledore's letter told them Harry he was a wizard, but that the Dursleys thought they could "cure" Harry somehow. But then Aunt Petunia says (in response to Harry's asking "You knew I'm a wizard?"): "Of course we knew! How could you not be, my dratted sister being what she was?...and of course I knew you'd be just the same, jsut as strange, just as abnormal..." (p. 53). Which implies that they assumed Harry was a wizard because his parents were wizards, but not that they had been told this in Dumbledore's letter. However, Hagrid is under the impression that Dumbledore's letter explained everything "You never told him? Never told him what was in the letter Dumbledore left fer him?" to which Uncle Vernon yells "STOP! I FORBID YOU!" and Aunt Petunia gasps in horror (p. 50). But I think it's perfectly believable that Hagrid assumed this, since Dumbledore rarely discloses information to anyone. I don't see any evidence in canon to support the Dursleys knowing about Voldemort, although Aunt Petunia does say that Lily "got herself blown up" (p. 53) which suggests that she knows *something* about how Lily died. ~Phyllis From rmm7e at yahoo.com Sat Sep 14 20:15:45 2002 From: rmm7e at yahoo.com (Regina) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 20:15:45 -0000 Subject: Snape: What is he up to? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44021 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bugaloo37" wrote: > are there anymore > theories out there concerning Snape's ambiguous relationship with > Harry other than the childhood grudge or unrequited love theories? Well, I don't know if this has been proposed before because I've only been around a few weeks (and this is my inaugural post): Running with the idea that Severus Snape is an anagram of Perseus Evans...Snape could be Lily's brother, possibly her twin (not just a distant cousin, as some have proposed). But, you say, it's clearly stated that the Dursleys (specifically, Petunia) are Harry's only living relatives. Well, maybe they're the only ones the WW knows about. Perhaps Petunia is unaware that Lily had a twin -- I don't know their age difference or who is older. Perhaps it was said that the twin died at birth, and was immediately sent away. Read on: In mythology, Perseus and his mother, Danae, were sent away in attempt to thwart the prophecy that Perseus would kill his grandfather (Danae's father). Was young Severus sent away for the same reason, his identity hidden? Has Dumbledore discovered this secret, and is this his reason for his trust in Snape? Prophecies are seldom thwarted, and Perseus did indeed kill his grandfather, accidentally, when a discus he threw in a sporting event went into the crowd. Hmmm. Was Snape a Quidditch player? Was he ever in a Triwizard Tournament that went awry? Or did he kill his grandfather in his activities as a Death Eater, accidentally or not? What is known about Harry's grandparents and great-gp on his mother's side? Is Harry safe at Hogwarts because Dumbledore is a greater wizard than Voldemort -- or because he's in the care of a blood relative, Snape? Why is Snape so nasty to Harry? Is Harry a reminder (with those mother's eyes of his) of the family that cast him out? That he possibly disgraced by killing a patriarch, even if accidentally? I have no clue. However, hopeless romantics can take heart in the fact that Perseus did eventually find true and happy love, with Andromeda. --Regina, also burning with the question of what were James and Lily's occupations? JKR has said in a chat transcript that they are integral to a future plot. From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 14 21:21:11 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 21:21:11 -0000 Subject: The Dursleys' Motivation for Not Sending Harry to an Orphanage Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44022 After hitting the "send" button on my last post, I had another thought: Since the Dursleys are not portrayed as the most generous of sorts, why would they keep Harry after he was deposited on their doorstep rather than drive him straight to the nearest orphanage? After all, "how often had they complained how much Harry cost them to keep?" (SS, Ch. 5, US ed. p. 75). And in PoA, Aunt Marge even suggests that the orphanage route would have been her preferred alternative. I have two possible solutions to this mystery: 1. The Dursleys take a twisted pleasure in abusing Harry; or 2. Dumbledore's letter *must* have told them that Harry would only be safe in their care, and the letter *must* have given them a good reason for why they should take part in Harry's protection. If this is indeed the answer, this suggests that Dumbledore's letter was far more detailed than the evidence in canon has suggested so far. ~Phyllis From Ali at zymurgy.org Sat Sep 14 21:23:31 2002 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (alhewison) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 21:23:31 -0000 Subject: Newer UK Edition of CoS Has Three Changes From Original Edition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44023 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: > I promised the group that I would identify changes made in the UK > adult paperback versions of the books as I make my way through them. > I've just finished CoS, and have three changes to report (I'm > assuming that these are changes from not only the US editions, which > I have, but are also changes from the original UK editions, which I > do not have. I checked the pages on the Lexicon that note the > differences between the US and UK editions, and these changes are not > noted, so I'm presuming that the following are changes from the > original UK editions as well): Sorry this is such a late response, but I've been on holiday and am still wading through all the old posts. I actually wonder here if your initial presumption is perhaps not right - namely that the original UK editions have been changed. I bought CoS in c. February 1999 and it must therefore be one of the earliest paperback UK editions. This edition was released only 6 months after the hardback but I believe well before the US editions? It's passages are similar to the ones you quote for the latest editions. It also contains the passage relating to Dobby being heavily bandaged as per the Candadian edition. Of course, my belief that the UK texts are basically unchanged (with the exception of course of the wand order and various minor "Flints"), doesn't alter the frustration about why the more major text changes were made between UK and US editions. I personally hope that if and when OoP comes out that there will be no changes between the texts (well except spelling!) Ali who remembers being given a LOON badge some while back, but can't remember what it was for! From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 14 21:28:26 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 21:28:26 -0000 Subject: Snape: What is he up to? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44024 bugaloo37 wrote: > In a previous post, I mentioned the fact that I found the character > of Snape intriging. IMO, Harry is as confused about Snape as I > am. After learning about the werewolf incident and James' rescue > of Snape, I still do not feel satisfied that this is the root of > Snape's ambiguous relationship with Harry. Now please let me > apologize before I say this: I do not see the unrequited love > scenario as being a plausible explanation either ( I know a lot of > people out there do-but please don't hate me!). I just got to > thinking (too much time on my hands- I guess)- are there anymore > theories out there concerning Snape's ambiguous relationship with > Harry other than the childhood grudge or unrequited love theories? Now me: I don't like the Snape+Lily idea, either (sorry, LOLLIPOPS fans!). I also think the schoolboy grudge is a pretty lame excuse for why Snape detests Harry so much, and I also believe there's more to it than we've been told so far. I'm wondering if it's perhaps because Snape really wanted to stay a DE and was truly horrified that Harry was Voldemort's downfall. I know Dumbledore has full faith in Snape, but I'm wondering if it's misplaced. I'm wondering whether Snape is doing a doublecross on Dumbledore. JKR did tell us to "keep an eye on Snape," and believe me, I am! ~Phyllis From SaalsG at cni-usa.com Sat Sep 14 22:08:18 2002 From: SaalsG at cni-usa.com (Grace Saalsaa) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 17:08:18 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How much do the Dursleys know? References: Message-ID: <002901c25c3b$3c4b9f50$4a4053d1@DJF30D11> No: HPFGUIDX 44025 ~Phyllis wrote: However, Hagrid is under the impression that Dumbledore's letter explained everything "You never told him? Never told him what was in the letter Dumbledore left fer him?" to which Uncle Vernon yells "STOP! I FORBID YOU!" and Aunt Petunia gasps in horror (p. 50). But I think it's perfectly believable that Hagrid assumed this, since Dumbledore rarely discloses information to anyone. I don't see any evidence in canon to support the Dursleys knowing about Voldemort, although Aunt Petunia does say that Lily "got herself blown up" (p. 53) which suggests that she knows *something* about how Lily died. Now me: Perhaps the Dursleys *do* know about Voldemort. From Harry's point of view, Aunt Petunia is always looking out the window to spy on the neighbors. Is she really? My theory is that once Petunia read Dumbledore's letter, it started this habit of looking over her shoulder, looking out the window....watching, watching, watching, watching.... Petunia takes Harry shopping and when an "odd" stranger takes notice of Harry, she panics and they leave the store without buying anything. I think Petunia lives in constant fear that Voldemort of the DE will suddenly show up because Harry is in her care. She knows that Voldemort is aware that Harry is with her; that she is Lily's sister. She knows Voldemort knows where she lives. For all of Harry's brief lifetime, Petunia has been in fear and now she compulsively looks out the window. Harry just thinks she's watching the neighbors. I don't think that what Petunia is really doing. The odd Christmas presents they send Harry are their subtle way of making sure Harry doesn't want to come home. When Ron, Fred & George show up in the middle of the night with the car, don't you think Vernon and Petunia thought their worst nightmare was about to happen? Waking up in the dead of the night to hear the sounds of Harry's window being broken into, Hedwig screeching, the sounds of a car engine outside a second story window might not have sounded exactly like what they were to a sleepy person startled into wakefulness. Some details must have been in Dumbledore's letter, and it wouldn't surprise me if Lily wrote an occassional letter to her dear sister Petunia telling her "We have a baby boy! His name is Harry." and "We have to go into hiding. Voldemort is after us and wants us dead. Petunia, dear sister, if something happens to us, will you take care of Harry? Please Petunia." Yes, of course Petunia knew. Sometimes blood really is thicker than water, and as much as frightened as she was, she took her dead sister's son. Later, it became more and more of a drain on her until she resented Lily and little Harry. Grace From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Sat Sep 14 22:44:13 2002 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (Marcus ) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 22:44:13 -0000 Subject: The Dursleys' Motivation for Not Sending Harry to an Orphanage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44026 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: > After hitting the "send" button on my last post, I had another > thought: Since the Dursleys are not portrayed as the most generous > of sorts, why would they keep Harry after he was deposited on their > doorstep rather than drive him straight to the nearest orphanage? > ~Phyllis There is a third reason. You don't just drop babies off on door- steps randomly without getting into a lot of trouble. We know that Dumbledore had about 24-hours between the time the Potters died and dropping Harry off. What did he do during that time? We don't know, but I suspect he spent a great deal of making arrangements with both the WW and the MW for the Dursleys to be Harry's guardians. The Wizard World probably was all according to proceedure, I am sure. However, the Muggle World arrangements were likely done with the help of magic. Now, can imagine Vernon Dursley trying to explain to the muggle authorities where Harry came from, and why their records were wrong? He would probably perfer to eat is own mistache. So instead of making a scene and calling attention to the oddities, they had to accept the situtation. Marcus From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Sep 14 23:48:06 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 23:48:06 -0000 Subject: The Dursleys' Motivation for Not Sending Harry to an Orphanage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44027 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: > ... Since the Dursleys are not portrayed as the most generous > of sorts, why would they keep Harry after he was deposited on their > doorstep rather than drive him straight to the nearest orphanage? > ...EDITED... > ~Phyllis bboy_mn: I have absolutely nothing to base this on, but I wondered if maybe there wasn't an incentive in the infamous Dumbledore letter that encouraged the Dursley's. Something along the line of ?100,000 (pounds; US$140,000) if they kept Harry until he became of age in the wizard world. They hate Harry, they hate his parents, they hate all wizards, but they sure would love the money. (Think vacation home in Majorca.) So they are putting as little into raising Harry as possilbe in order to maximize their return. It's really going to be interesting when we finally find out what that letter from Dumbledore said. Another unrelated possiblity is that it was simply a matter of saving face. What would the neighbors think, if the Dursley's turned their own flesh and blood over to an orphanage? How cold and callous would that be in the eyes of friends and neighbors. Again, they are stuck with a social duty, but they don't have to like it, and they don't have to put any more than is absolutely necessary into the effort then what is required to meet that minimum obligation. Just a thought. bboy_mn From catlady at wicca.net Sun Sep 15 00:47:25 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 00:47:25 -0000 Subject: Wizards' wealth, work, taxes, tuition, education, Squibs, HUFFLEPUFF Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44028 Brenda W wrote: << What did the parents of James Potter do to leave him so much money? It's fine to say he inherited money, but where did it come from originally? (snip) what do wizards like Lucius Malfoy, or the families of other Hogwarts students, do to earn wizard money? >> It is pure unfounded speculation, but perhaps the Potters were descended from Bowman Wright, of Godric's Hollow, who according to QTTA was 'a skilled metal-charmer' who invented the Golden Snitch. Perhaps Wright made a fortune from all those Snitches he sold. I feel certain that Lucius Malfoy inherited his wealth, and he doesn't have to do any work except to manage his money. I fantasize that the ancestors of the Malfoys were already sitting pretty when the Romans came to Britain, but continued to increase their fortune since then. Early sources would include charging Muggle villages a large annual tax not to destroy them, conquering other wizards and confiscating their property, selling spells to rich Muggles, finding desposits of metal ore and other valuables and mining and processing them with slave or House Elf labor or by spells. Medieval sources would include owning large amounts of land and either farming it by slave or sharecropper labor and selling the produce, or renting it to non-slave farmers, and selling exotic foreign luxury goods (e.g. spices, silk, Oriental carpets) that could be imported much more easily by magic than by Muggle means. Modern sources would include being a venture capitalist or loan shark. I can easily imagine that Lucius Malfoy owned a broomstick company (owned it, not managed it) and offered to his competitors to buy them out at a ridiculously low price, and when they refused, somehow their factory, family home, and family members were all laid to waste with the Dark Mark glowing over the ruins... The broomstick factory, incidentally, could employ a number of parents of Hogwarts students, such the careful, hardworking Hufflepuff who individually hand-ties and charms each twig, and the obsessed Ravenclaw who invents the improved versions of the charms, and the inventory manager who notes how fast the wood, twigs, feathers, string, polish, sandpaper, and all are being used, and orders more in time that the store room won't run out. Some of those early sources of wizarding wealth would account for the hostility of Muggles toward wizarding folk, such as Binns mentioned during the Founding of Hogwarts: "it was an age when magic was feared by common people, and witches and wizards suffered much persecution." I think it is possible that part of the current-day interaction of the wizarding and Muggle governments is that our Muggle governments pay the local wizarding governments annual fees. These fees could be simple blackmail (pay us not to sic dragons on you), or payments for magical services -- for example, the wizards might have a shield up to guard Earth from being struck by asteroids. That would be both a source of income for the wizarding government, so that it wouldn't need to tax its own people, and a source of jobs for wizards and witches working on the asteroid shield or whatever. Melody wrote: << Do Hogwarts students pay tuition? And if not, then how can Hogwarts afford to stay running? Do you think the Wizard world is taxed? Do these taxes pay for more than just the school system? Is Hogwarts then a state school? >> The wizarding world might not need taxes. The wizarding governments might be funded by fees from Muggle governments as above, or I like to think that they have tight control of a grove of trees on which money *does* grow, Galleons and Sickles and Knuts that cannot be counterfeited because each one grew with a unique 'fingerprint' of growth rings. (If only Sickles were equally prime 13 rather than 17 to the Galleon, it would be SO calendrical: 29 bronze Knuts/days to the silver Sickle/moon, 13 moons to the gold Galleon/year...) The wizarding government might get SO MUCH money from its sources that it does the opposite of collecting taxes: it pays a stipend to every adult wizard and witch. Presumably not a stipend to every child, or the prolific Weasleys wouldn't be so poor. On the other hand, it just *feels* so plausible to me that many 'Death Eaters who walked free' would get jobs in the Department of Taxation! As for Hogwarts, I can't find any canon, but I am convinced that it does not charge tuition and does not charge for room and board (that would be another reason why Hermione's parents were so pleased when she was accepted there). As BBOY_MN said, they probably have a huge endowment. However, having to buy books and supplies and uniforms and broomsticks, not to mention toothpaste and Dungbombs, is still an expense for the students' families. I must imagine that there is some charity to help impoverished students with these needs (maybe giving them worn-out old uniforms and books discarded by older students) but the Weasleys are too proud to take charity. Even tho' I believe that Hogwarts is not funded by the wizarding government, I do think it is a state school IN A WAY: It admits all students, like a state school. Fudge seems to believe that he is in control of Hogwarts (telling Dumbledore something about: not many people would let you get away with what I let you get away with, hiring a werewolf and a half-giant) and this MIGHT be true, if he controls the Board of Governors ... But Hogwarts existed long before the Ministry of Magic did, so it almost makes more sense to me that Hogwarts Headmaster or Board of Governors invented the Ministry of Magic and still selects the Minister ... sym_2_one wrote: << What in the world to wizard children do before they attend Hogwarts, if they are able to attend at all? What happens to kids under the age of eleven if both parents have to work? How do they learn to read, write, and do simple math? I believe that the wizarding parents are responsible for their children's elementary education. They can home-school, hire tutors, send the child to a Muggle school (if they can do so without breaking the law of Wizarding Secrecy), or send the child to small, local, private, wizarding elementary school. I believe that MoM never checks on whether the children are going to school and has no rules for credentialling elementary schools, but if the children don't have enough basic skills when they enter Hogwarts, the parents are fined and are disgraced by having their names listed in the DAILY PROPHET as "parents of stupid children". The wizarding world doesn't have the same problem of 'both parents have to work' as our Muggle world does. To some extent, just because they're old-fashioned: many fewer mothers of schoolchildren had paid jobs when I was a schoolchild (high school class of '74) than nowdays. But also because wizarding folk have a lower cost of living: this may be because doing stuff with magic is cheaper than doing stuff with technology (e.g. does Apparation require car payments, auto insurance, repairs, oil, petrol?) What with the lower cost of living, the stipends or dividends that I fantasised that MoM pays to all adult wizards and witches, and inherited money, many wizards as well as witches don't have to have regular full-time jobs. They can be employed part-time, temp, free-lance, or not at all. Also, we have seen many small-business owners in the wizarding world, few giant corporations. Many artisans and few big factories. I like to imagine that the Qualities have run Quality Quidditch Supplies for 500 years, and each generation of children was raised in the shop and the warehouse, hanging around with their parents, sometimes going with the parents on visits to suppliers, sometimes working math problems or writing essays in the corner that a parent will review after closing time. sym_2_one wrote: << What if a wizard child is not offered to attend of School of Magic? >> I believe that EVERY child in Britain and Ireland with ANY wizarding power is invited to attend a school of magic. (There may be other countries in which Muggle-born students are not invited, no matter how powerful.) If all the students go to Hogwarts as JKR said, then Hogwarts has 1000 students as JKR said, that would be all the wizarding children, based on many previous threads about the size of wizarding population. I believe that Hogwarts has several campus, the Castle that we see in canon is the main campus, has approx 280 students as shown in canon, and the children of less aptitude (and/or less family connections) are sent to other campus. Some listees believe that Hogwarts has only one campus, 280 students as depicted, and is the only School of Witchcraft and Wizardry, but all the lesser students are sent to a School of Magic instead. Either of those ideas would go along with Neville's statement that his family, even after they were reassured that he wasn't a Squib, doubted that he was magic enough to get in 'here': that is, to Hogwarts Main Campus rather than another campus, or to School of Witchcraft and Wizardry rather than to School of Magic. If all 1000 students are at the one Hogwarts campus at Hogwarts Castle, then Tom from the Leaky Cauldron and Stan Shunpike and Ernie Prang and Madam Rosmerta went to school at Hogwarts Castle. (Btw why do people assume that Madam Rosmerta has a poor education or a low degree of magical talent just because she owns a restaurant with a bar?) I get the impression that JKR thinks all these people were in Hufflepuff, which is why she has such a low opinion of Hufflepuff. While we have seen nothing in canon to suggest that Stan and Ern and Tom are exceptionally loyal or hard-working by nature, perhaps JKR and the Sorting Hat believe that people who don't have enough talent or charisma to get by in life by talent or charisma had better LEARN to work hard even if it isn't in their nature. The only children of wizarding parents who wouldn't get invited to ANY school of magic are the Squibs, the ones who have no magical power at all. Ron told us they are very rare ... very rare might mean one in a lifetime! If Squibs can be identified at birth (and the Lombottomi just didn't trust the results of the test on baby Neville) that might be the origin of changelings: medieval wizarding parents who didn't want a 'defective' child dumped it in the cradle of a Muggle child who had died (high level of infant mortality in medieval period). Later, when Muggles invented orphanages, those would have been used instead. Filch's parents probably deserve some credit for KEEPING their 'defective' child, altho' they'd probably deserve even more credit if they'd kept him AND had him educated to make a living in the Muggle world, where being a Squib doesn't matter. I have a totally non-canonical theory that Petunia was Narcissa's sister who was rejected by her parents for being a Squib. She was given to the Evanses rather than to an orphanage because, in this theory, the Evans already had some relationship with the wizarding In this theory, Petunia's hatred of magic comes from her too young to remember knowledge that it was MAGIC that caused her to be expelled from her first home and family. The biggest problem I see with this theory is Dumbledore's statement that the Dursleys are the only family that baby Harry has left: I'm sure he must have meant blood kin, not adopted, because it had something to do with Ancient Magic. ABOUT THOSE HUFFLEPUFFS!! Fyre Wood wrote: << Could Neville have been thinking the following which sitting under the hat? Neville: "Oh gosh, everyone hates me already because I'm an incompetant moron who can't keep my toad near me... don't put me in that wretched Hufflepuff house where you're considered to be the 'Hogwarts Hippies' and care about nothing... but just being loyal." (Okay, that was totally sarcastic and inappropriate, but you get the point. Please don't flame me for that^_~). >> Finwitch wrote: << Neville-- the hat might have tryed to convince him that he does belong in Gryffindor. How many times Neville says he's not brave enough to be Gryffindor and that he should have been Hufflepuff for being so lousy. >> I AGREE WITH FINWITCH!!!! Gail B wrote: << Could somebody please tell me where Hufflepuff got this bad rap? And, in general, why are the qualities which Hufflepuffs are said to possess not valued like the others? >> I think it was Grey Wolf who gave the Book 1 (PS/SS) canon for Hufflepuff having a bad rep. Here's tej Book 4 (GoF) canon: page 257 of UK hardcover, chapter 18 The Weighing of the Wands: "It was plain that the Hufflepuffs thought Harry had stolen their champion's glory; a feeling exacerbated, perhaps, by the fact that Hufflepuff house very rarely got any glory, and that Cedric was one of the few who had ever given them any, having beaten Gryffindor once in Quidditch." and page 550, where they play Robert Alphonse and Gaston with the Triwizard Cup: "Cedric was serious. He was walking away from the sort of glory that Hufflepuff house hadnt had in centuries." Poo-ie on JKR. 1) Being a hard-working person doesn't mean the person doesn't ALSO have talent, intelligence, and/or physical strength: Helga Hufflepuff valued hard work most, but SHE must have had talent to spare or how could she have been one of the greatest wizards and witches of her day? 2) Hard work should occasionally be enough to win some glory in the school, for sports or for high marks, in a year when the other houses don't happen to have anyone else of *extreme* natural talent. 3) Loyalty, if not hard work, should be enough to OCCASIONALLY earn some glory in the adult world: Leonidias's Spartans who died to a man holding the pass at Thermopylae, the Light Brigade in Crimea, every soldier who threw himself on a grenade to save his comrades ... Marina wrote: << most adolescents haven't learned to value "non-glamorous" virtues like diligence, loyalty and fairness. >> << Courage, intelligence or ambition won't necessarily prevent you from being a sadistic, power- grubbing bastard, but a strong sense of justice probably will. >> I think the ADULTS of the wizarding world, with their 'warrior culture', have not yet learned to value non-glamourous virtues either. However, I can see loyalty leading some Hufflepuffs to join the DEs and diligently torture Muggle-lovers ... Loyalty to a person who turns out to be morally unworthy of that loyalty. Loyalty to the ideal of Pure Wizarding Blood. Loyalty to one's family threatened by the DE recruiter ... From catlady at wicca.net Sun Sep 15 01:48:43 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 01:48:43 -0000 Subject: MWPP Animagi / addresses on the Letters / Ginny's name Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44029 Aloha wrote: << James and Sirius needed to become large animals to keep Remus in line (and just barely, at that, Sirius says in PoA how many close calls there were). But it was also necessary to have a smaller creature to deactivate the Whomping Willow. >> I am sure that wizards and witches who become Animagi do not get to choose their animal form. They don't know what animal they will get the ability to transform into until they get the ability and try it out. (There is canon for this: JKR interviews in which she confirms that the Animagus's animal form is a reflection of his/her personality.) (See my posts #38420 and #39272 for citations.) They couldn't have KNOWN that any of them would become big enough animals to control a full-grown werewolf. Presumably their original plan was just to transform into animals so they could hang out with him IN the Shrieking Shack, because the werewolf doesn't go crazy with blood lust at the scent of animals as it does when it scents human, and possibly also because it may be the case (canon is not clear) that an animal bitten by a werewolf doesn't turn into a werewolf as does a human bitten by a werewolf. They were planning only to keep him company, not to go out on adventures. They also COULDN'T have known that one of them would become a small enough animal to press the button on the Whomping Willow. They must have planned on taking human form and pressing the button with a long stick, as Madam Pomfrey and Remus did when she escorted him to his moon-hiding-hole, as Sirius told Severus to do, etc. (From my post 40621): *HOWEVER* I have never heard of any wizard who became an Animagus then going through the whole process again in hope of getting an additional animal form, so I don't know what would happen if one did try. Could he/she have another innate animagus form? Another thing I wonder is, if Remus became an Animagus, could he avoid his werewolf transformation and its accompanying madness by transforming into his animal just before the scheduled time for his transformation or just after his transformation? Jeff doffy99 wrote: << HOW Did the school know where Harry was? They always did. First under the stairs, then the hotel and finally the cabin. They even had specifics like "the Floor" and "the cabinet under the stairs" or "the smallest bedroom." >> I never thought that the addresses meant that the school knew where Harry was, nor even that Hagrid knew where Harry was. Owl magic knew where Harry was: we have canon for owls being able to deliver the letter (find the recipient) even if the only address written by the sender is the recipient's name. How is it that the Ministry doesn't find escaped convict Sirius by owling him and following the owl? I say, post owls travel via another dimension where humans cannot follow them. I always thought that Hagrid did some magic on the envelopes so that they would show the address; those silly addresses seem to me to suit Hagrid's sense of humor, and he SAID that he welcomed the opportunity to do bits of magic provided by his errand to fetch Harry. I guess it would have to be a spell that tapped somehow into the owl magic. How is it that the Ministry doesn't use the spell that I imagine Hagrid to have used, to capture in writing the owl's knowledge of Sirius's whereabouts? Maybe that spell is something that only Hagrid could do, with his animal affinities. Maybe not, but the addresses only appeared on the letters when they were delivered, and it wouldn't have helped the Ministry to find Sirius for them to send a letter that would tell SIRIUS where he himself was. The letters that rushed down the chimney in bulk and were found inside the raw eggs were clearly created by magic. I mean, rather than being delivered by owls in the normal way. On another tentacle, Hagrid DID find where Vernon had taken Harry (the silly island), and presumably not be questioning Muggle eyewitnesses for whether they had seen a car with Vernon's license plate... bboy_mn wrote: << the only other name I can think of that could have Ginny as a nickname is Genevive or Genevieve >> Alina replied: << I still think it's Regina! >> Genevere, Iphigenia, Imogen, Eugenia, Gennara (from San Gennaro = St. Januarius), Giovannia = Gianna = Ginny, Echinacea (so it's a flower name!) = Chinny = Ginny, Genista ("broom plant" like planta-genet), Gentiana (gillyflower) ... From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 15 01:55:04 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 01:55:04 -0000 Subject: Quirrell's Tenure (Again) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44030 Dare I bring up the thorny issue of Quirrell's tenure again? Yes, I do dare! I just came across the following quote in Ch. 12 of GoF: "They [HRH] had never yet had a Defence Against the Dark Arts teacher who had lasted more than three terms" (UK ed., p. 155). I know this is contradictory to what Hagrid says in SS/PS, but it seems as if, at least by Book 4, JKR's intention was to have Quirrell's first year at Hogwarts be his last. ~Phyllis From catlady at wicca.net Sun Sep 15 03:04:08 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 03:04:08 -0000 Subject: Ginny's name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44031 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > Genevere, Iphigenia, Imogen, Eugenia, Gennara (from San Gennaro = > St. Januarius), Giovannia = Gianna = Ginny, Echinacea (so it's a > flower name!) = Chinny = Ginny, Genista ("broom plant" like > planta-genet), Gentiana (gillyflower) ... Btw, gillyweed must be pronounced with a G, so it sounds like gills, which is what it causes a mammal to grow when going underwater, but gillyflower (a real word) is pronounced with a J. From mcarlin at ev1.net Sun Sep 15 00:17:31 2002 From: mcarlin at ev1.net (Megan Carlin) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 19:17:31 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Dursleys' Motivation for Not Sending Harry to an Orphanage References: Message-ID: <004001c25c4d$48f8b050$2f00a8c0@tom> No: HPFGUIDX 44032 Phyllis said: > Since the Dursleys are not portrayed as the most generous >of sorts, why would they keep Harry after he was deposited on their >doorstep rather than drive him straight to the nearest orphanage? And me: I think that one sure reason that the Dursleys kept Harry was because they feared not to. Of course neither one of them would readily admit to being frightened by the WW, but it's a good possibility. After all when Harry comes home for his first vacation (following the PS/SS and at the beginning of CoS) all he has to do is mention doing magic and his aunt/uncle/cousin are all aflutter with trepidation. To them magic is this horrid, yet very dangerous thing that none of the three of them understand. It got Lily and James killed, and if they knew *anything* of how they were killed (the paranoia of Voldemort coming for Harry) that would scare even the hardiest of wizards, I believe. Petunia's very close-minded view of her sister Lily and Vernon's own biggotry of anything different wouldn't exactly have them down at the MoM learning how to be supportive of a wizard in the family. Indeed, I think that they probably have a rampant imagination as to what exactly Harry or any other wizard is capable of. So maybe when Dumbledore dropped Harry off at the Dursleys, the letter indicated something to the extent that they *better* take good care of him. I wouldn't imagine Dumbledore would threaten them in so many words, but we all know that he is very capable of getting the expected results with choice words. The "or else" now delivered, he could be sure that the Dursleys wouldn't just go drop Harry off at Social Services right off. Ponderingly, Megan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Sun Sep 15 03:55:47 2002 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 20:55:47 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What's in it for Witches? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <12719864691.20020914205547@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44033 Saturday, September 14, 2002, 11:10:25 AM, c_voth312 wrote: c> ~Quidditch, unlike most Muggle sports, is very co-ed. And even when women *do* make progress into male-dominated Muggle games-and-sports (such as Ilya Borders in Baseball and Judit Polgar in chess), they are regarded by the (male-controlled) establishment as presumptuous intruders. -- Dave From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Sep 15 03:54:26 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 03:54:26 -0000 Subject: What's in it for Witches? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44034 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Emma Hawkes wrote: These details give a > fascinating glimpse of the structure of the magic world and it is > possible to chart the working lives of some of the witches and > wizards. In Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone, the following jobs are undertaken by adult human protagonists: > > Wizards Witches > > Nurse > Robe Maker > Gameskeeper > Apothecary > Wand Maker > Innkeeper > Teacher Teacher > House Head House Head > Headmaster Deputy Head > Banker > Dragon Tamer > Civil Servant > Dark Lord > > This is an interesting list. Witches have a limited range of > employment possibilities, none of which stray too far from what is normal in contemporary Britain. Witches may have authority over children, but the top jobs are reserved for men (headmaster, Dark Lord). Although, frankly, I wouldn't hail a Dark Lady rather than a Dark Lord as a feminist break through, it would be nice if some women got to speak with authority or even work for the Ministry of Magic.<< > This is a common topic on this list, and I see it unfolding in the usual manner, with people pointing out that we are in fact told of many important high status jobs for women in the wizarding world, ie headmistress, Minister of Magic (in the schoolbooks), world class Quidditch player and so on. I submit that lack of female empowerment is not the real source of reader dissatisfaction. The real issue is that from the reader's perspective, the witches are so hopelessly mundane. From the wizards' point of view, of course, this is not so. They wouldn't think being a dragon handler is more exotic than being headmistress of a wizarding school, or that teaching potions is more glamorous than astronomy. But let a witch show one sign of impressing the reader as exotic or extraordinary and Rowling moves at once to squelch it. The most egregious example is yellow-eyed Madame Hooch, who drops clean out of the narrative whenever Harry is attacked on the Quidditch field, just when you would expect her to demonstrate her flying skills. One begins to wonder whether she could be a secret ally of Lord Voldemort. There are many other examples. Professor Sprout is literally down to earth, Professor Trelawney never consciously does any magic at all, the ungendered but presumably female Professor Sinistra teaches Astronomy, the only mundane subject taught at Hogwarts. Molly uses her magic only to chop vegetables and make white sauce...we don't even get to see her Apparate or use Floo powder, though we're told she can. McGonagall has the delightful ability to become a cat, but she has yet to use it in any really dramatic way. Even Hermione doesn't use magic as much as you'd think she would...she doesn't need it to capture Rita Skeeter, for example (though she does use it to keep her imprisoned.) Most of what she does, lighting fires and opening locks, could be managed by Muggle means, and Rowling takes pains to show this. There's the Time Turner, of course, but it's not really Hermione's, and in the end she gives it up. Rowling thus builds up an expectation in our minds that witches only do what ordinary women do, but she delights in upsetting such assumptions. The gender of the Irish Chasers is concealed just long enough for the careless reader to assume they are all male. There are other hints that Rowling could be planning to surprise us. The sex (or sexes) of Charlie's dragon trainer friends, the ones who rescue Norbert, is never mentioned. There's the possibility that McGonagall and Riddle might have a past. There's the queenly female Death Eater in the Pensieve. Was she Mrs. Lestrange, or is there perhaps more than one powerful sorceress in the Dark Lord's camp? Also, there is, as Emma points out, no reason to suppose that Bode and Croaker, who *do* have exotic jobs from the wizards' point of view, are male. Above all there is Lily, who appears in the Mirror of Erised, not as a mighty sorceress, which she surely was, but as the Mother Harry longs to have. I think part of what Rowling is doing is twitting her female readers, and herself, for finding it so easy to identify with male protagonists. But also we know that she doesn't altogether approve of escapist fantasies, as Dumbledore's teaching about the Mirror shows. Perhaps she wants to show us that real power, for women and men both, does not rest in the ability to wield a wand, but in the ability to influence the hearts of others. Pippin From catlady at wicca.net Sun Sep 15 05:57:43 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 05:57:43 -0000 Subject: More Names (Non-Canonical) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44035 Hieronyma Hooch Ermenegildo "Ernie" Prang Constantius "Stan" Shunpike Earnhardt "Ernie" Macmillan From smellee17 at hotmail.com Sun Sep 15 07:00:04 2002 From: smellee17 at hotmail.com (smellee17) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 07:00:04 -0000 Subject: Wizards' wealth, work, taxes, tuition, education, Squibs, HUFFLEPUFF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44036 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > It is pure unfounded speculation, but perhaps the Potters were > descended from Bowman Wright, of Godric's Hollow, who according to > QTTA was 'a skilled metal-charmer' who invented the Golden Snitch. > Perhaps Wright made a fortune from all those Snitches he sold. Help! A quick clarification: Is Godric's Hollow a town? I had always thought that Godric's Hollow was the name of the Potter's house, sort of like how the Weasley's house is called "The Burrow". Am I really of the map here? Thanks, smellee From mi_shell16 at hotmail.com Sun Sep 15 12:38:32 2002 From: mi_shell16 at hotmail.com (theresnothingtoit) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 12:38:32 -0000 Subject: Theories on Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44037 Severus Snape happens to be my favourite character in the Harry Potter series and I always carry some LOLLIPOPS with me whereever I go. I have searched through the archive and found references to various other theories about Snape apart form LOLLIPOPS, but I have had trouble tracking down the original posts. I managed to find a great deal on a certain fair faced cabin boy named George which cleared up allot of strange thoughts I was having about Snape and a certain Weasly twin but I think I am right in assuming that there are other theories such as Mercy, Mercy II, and Prince of Lies out there but I just can't find them. I also found, in my archive search for LOLLIPOPS, a reference to "The unauthorised biography on Severus Snape" but I can't remember who posted it but I do remember them being annoyed at others who thought it was a fanfic. If anyone can help me in my search I will be most gratified or perhaps it is only my computer that is slightly blind in it's left eye that is my problem. Theresnothingtoit From eloiseherisson at aol.com Sun Sep 15 13:49:45 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 09:49:45 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Theories on Snape Message-ID: <32.2d0862a2.2ab5e9f9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44038 Theresnothingtoit: > Severus Snape happens to be my favourite character in the Harry > Potter series Clearly a right thinking person! > I have searched through the archive and found references to > various other theories about Snape apart form LOLLIPOPS, but I have > had trouble tracking down the original posts. > <> > If anyone can help me in my search I will be most gratified or > perhaps it is only my computer that is slightly blind in it's left > eye that is my problem. You should be able to find refs to these theories and others in Hypothetic Alley, which I see now has a link in the Admin Files. (Thanks, Mods!) Go to the HPfGU Home Page, then Files, then Admin Files. Unfortunately, I can't get it to respond (and I couldn't the last few times I tried to get into it via the link in the Humongous Bigfile), but maybe you'll have better luck. If it's not responding, another place to look is in the messages back in February, when a number of us got our thoughts into some kind of reasonable order in response to Judy Shapiro's suggestion that we summarised the many Snapetheories that were floating around at the time - (the Cliff Notes Version). Eloise > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Sun Sep 15 18:15:15 2002 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 11:15:15 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dementor Dan, Your Jailer (filk) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9071440302.20020915111515@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44039 Saturday, September 14, 2002, 11:48:06 AM, Caius Marcius wrote: CM> NOTES: (1) The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of the American CM> Psychiatric Association (a classification of the mental illnesses) CM> lists Major Depresssion on its Axis 1 (Clinical Disorders). Dementors seem to be the one magical creature that are prevalent in the Muggle world. :( CM> (2) The 1965 sitcom My Mother The Car is widely considered one of CM> the worst series of all time I hope no one is going to suggest that the Ford Angelia is the reincarnation of Lily. :) -- Dave From rvotaw at i-55.com Sun Sep 15 19:08:29 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 14:08:29 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Potterverse Secret Code revisited References: Message-ID: <02e101c25ceb$4956f220$0ca2cdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 44040 Fyre Wood writes: > I do disagree with the idea of Gilderoy Lockhart being Good and Fudge > being good as well. It just doesn't seem Right. Ah, here's where it gets tricky. See, I think neither of them are actually "good." They're just too stupid (especially Lockhart) to be of use to the dark side. What would Voldemort want with an idiot like Lockhart, for example. Fudge may turn out a bit trickier than that though, he certainly doesn't seem to be "good" right now. > As for Lucius Malfoy being good?! Well, this code can't *always* be > perfect. My only defense here is a weak one. Perhaps Lucius could eventually get ticked off at Voldemort if he doesn't get a high enough position for himself, and turn on him in a quest for power. Not turn to the good side, mind you, but in essence aid the good side unintentionally by turning against Voldemort. Make sense? No? Well, best I could do. :) Richelle From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Sun Sep 15 09:58:29 2002 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 09:58:29 -0000 Subject: The Dursleys' Motivation for Not Sending Harry to an Orphanage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44041 > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "erisedstraeh2002" > wrote: > ... Since the Dursleys are not portrayed as the most generous > of sorts, why would they keep Harry after he was deposited on their > doorstep rather than drive him straight to the nearest orphanage? I've always thought, they kept him, because they were frightened, what the wizards will do, if they ever found out, that the Dursleys gave him to the next orphanage. "hickengruendler" From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Sun Sep 15 10:33:55 2002 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 10:33:55 -0000 Subject: OoP Prediction Derby (from the archives) In-Reply-To: <3C28A4CE.3EC50A85@kingwoodcable.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44042 Currently, I read some posts in the archive and found the OotP survey. I don't know, if it's to late to poste my answers, however I will do. Hickengruendler > 1. What new magical place will we visit? Durmstrang and/ or Beauxbatons > 2. Are any of the Dursleys wizards? Who? No, I don't think so. But if there is one, I would say it's Dudley. > 3. Identify the next DADA teacher. Someone completely new, we haven't met and haven't heard from, yet. > 4. Which "beloved" character(s) will die? Any other deaths, and >if so, who? Beloved: Hagrid, other: Pansy, Neville's grandma, DADA teacher, Fudge will get Dementors kiss > 5. Of Lupin, Sirius, Krum, Fleur, Lockhart, Winky, Dobby, Moody, > Bagman, Madam Maxime, which characters will have speaking lines in > OoF? All of them, without Lockhardt and Bagman > 6. At the end of OoP, will Dumbledore be the headmaster? Yes > 7. At the end of OoP, will Fudge be the Minister of Magic? No > 8. At the end of OoP, will Neville be the same forgetful boy, or > will he have changed in some way? I think he will slowly change, and this development will continue in later books. > 9. At the end of OoP, will Sirius have cleared his name? No > 10. Will Harry and Voldemort have a confrontation? I hope not. > 11. Of the following magical things, which will a character use or > confront: pensieve, veritaserum, boggart, Marauder's Map, whomping > willow, polyjuice potion, nifflers, portkeys, rememberall, floo > powder, time turner, sneakoscope, foe glass, secrecy sensor, knight > bus. Marauders Map, sneakoscope, floo powder, knight bus > 12. Will there be Quiddich at Hogwarts? Of course. > If so, who will be the Gryffindor Keeper? Neville > Gryffindor Captain? Harry > 13. Will anyone else turn out to be an animagus? Who? Noone > 14. Who is Mundungus Fletcher? A crazy old man, who is allied with Dumbledore. > 15. Will Wormtail use his silver hand in an important way? No "hickengruendler" From ehawkes at iinet.net.au Sun Sep 15 11:31:21 2002 From: ehawkes at iinet.net.au (Emma Hawkes) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 19:31:21 +0800 Subject: HP: What's in it for the witches? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44043 I agree that we see things from Harry's pov and he is naturally more concerned with spotting other boys than girls and that he tends to assume authority is male (a hangover from the muggle world perhaps). But most of the Ministry of Magic seem to be men, most of Voldemort's followers likewise. I don't know - to me it seems like women are either are not at the top of the system or there are just fewer witches around. > Jodel, thanks for the info about authors of school books - I hadn't thought of that. Emma From flower_fairy12 at yahoo.co.uk Sun Sep 15 13:03:04 2002 From: flower_fairy12 at yahoo.co.uk (flower_fairy12) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 13:03:04 -0000 Subject: Snape: What is he up to? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44044 "bugaloo37" wrote: > In a previous post, I mentioned the fact that I found the character > of Snape intriging. IMO, Harry is as confused about Snape as I am. > After learning about the werewolf incident and James' rescue of > Snape, I still do not feel satisfied that this is the root of > Snape's ambiguous relationship with Harry. Now please let me > apologize before I say this: I do not see the unrequited love > scenario as being a plausible explanation either ( I know a lot of > people out there do-but please don't hate me!). I just got to > thinking (too much time on my hands- I guess)- are there anymore > theories out there concerning Snape's ambiguous relationship with > Harry other than the childhood grudge or unrequited love theories? There is something in another current post (can't remember which) that sort of ties in with this. We know that Voldy wanted to kill Harry & James, and not necessarily Lily, so that makes both Harry & James special if Voldy wanted to specifically kill them. So, what if this "special" thing, and also the fact that they are both talented at quidditch and popular, makes Snape so jealous? He may have been popular at school, but only with the slimy Slytherins. IMO, No-one from any other houses would have gone within a 10-mile radius of him. My thory - James was, and Harry is, everything Snape wasn't. Cue the jealousy. *Rosey* :) http://magic-hogwarts.com From deejay435 at buckeye-express.com Sun Sep 15 14:50:58 2002 From: deejay435 at buckeye-express.com (Denise Jurski) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 10:50:58 -0400 Subject: The secret code revisited/Hufflepuff House/Hagrid's innocence References: <1031930449.2946.94949.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <003701c25cc7$4d8982a0$6501a8c0@buckeyecablesystem.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44045 I have to say, I love these codes. However I have to quibble just a little with the latest version. Richelle said : >There are, however, some exceptions. Evil isn't always evil. >It's sometimes a good person who inadvertantly aids evil. Same thing for good. >Could be that a person who was really bad "messes up" and aids the good side unintentionally And also: >Ginny Weasley (6) good How does the code distinguish between one good person who inadvertantly aids the side of evil and another? Ginny certainly helped Tom Riddle/Voldemort with the opening of the Chamber of Secrets and all. But I must say I am glad that Richelle's version of the code slaps Draco into the evil catergory where, imo, he so deservedly belongs. ;-) And now, on to the Hufflepuffs. Gail asked: >Could somebody please tell me where Hufflepuff got this bad rap? And, in >general, why are the qualities which Hufflepuffs are said to possess not >valued like the others? I haven't read the books in quite a while. I plan to soon, just so I can keep up with you all! However, the only canon referances to Hufflepuffs that I can think of that are negative are: Draco :(Paraphrasing) "If I was sorted into Hufflepuff, I think I would just get back on the train and go home." Well. Considering the source, I don't take this derision very seriously. Draco has nothing good to say of anyone not intimately associated with himself, and his House. He doesn't think much of Gryffindor either, but that doesn't seem to stop many fans from thinking Gryffindor is the end all and be all of Hogwarts. And on to the second example: Hagrid: "Well, everyone says they're a lot of duffers..." I'm more inclined to believe that this statement is a better reflection of a general stereotype of Hufflepuff since in this statement he seems to be commenting on general gossip. He goes on to say that Hufflepuff is something like 1000s of times better than Slytherin, giving his own personal opinion at the end. Now is it really thought to be such a dumping ground in the WW? Or is Hagrid hanging around the wrong sorts of gossipy people? Isn't there something else in GoF where it says Hufflepuff turned against Harry because the felt he was stealing the only glory their house had gotten in forever by becoming the second champion besides Cedric? And now this: >But if he were simply their scapegoat why did >they think the attacks came to an end? Bit of a coincidence, Hagrid being >expelled and the attacks stopping. There was that piece of supporting >evidence that he was involved, after all. Except he was expelled, but not asked to leave Hogwarts. So his expulsion coinciding with the ending of the attacks doesn't really support the thought that Hagrid was the one responsible. My explaination is that Hagrid really was the scapegoat only because the MoM had no idea who really opened the Chamber. Only Dumbledore suspected Riddle. It seems even then the MoM wasn't up to listening to Dumbledore's counsel. Diary!Riddle is the one saying that Hagrid was thought to be the Heir. However cunning he turns out to be as Voldemort, the Tom Riddle who wrote the diary was a fifteen year old boy? Fifteen year olds are often filled with hubris...it's common to the age to see everything through the focus of how it relates to them. So that Tom Riddle couldn't understand how people could believe a lad like Hagrid being the heir, he also couldn't see them /not/ blaming Hagrid, as he, Tom, was the one to frame Hagrid in the first place. So I think that while Tom believed he was 100% sucessful in his little frame-up, he really wasn't. Hagrid was an easy target for the MoM to explain the attacks...but never really thought to be the 'heir of Slytherin'. All right, I have to head off soon....no time to read the rest of the mails! Denise From webtransactions at netscape.net Sun Sep 15 23:28:19 2002 From: webtransactions at netscape.net (webtransactions at netscape.net) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 19:28:19 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: An announcement from the Mods and Elves... Message-ID: <130C3F39.30CDFE66.0537851B@netscape.net> No: HPFGUIDX 44046 hi kelley - i'm not very good at discussion boards (i typically use an old 486 computer using netscape on a dial-up), and i could not figure out who to email, so i apologize for doing it this way. i had this email from you about a month ago, and hope that this still gets to you ok. i am looking to get in touch with one of the hp4grownups board owners. i have a harry potter analysis that i would like to share with any of them and to get their opinion. the problem is that it is a hard copy (bound) analysis on paper, and i need to physically ship it somewhere. is there an address or p.o. box i can get it to where one of the owners can look at it? i would really like someone in hp4grownups to look it over, but i have never been in any of your discussion groups, so i do not know anyone to ask. plmk, dragonwarp "kelleyelf" wrote: >Hello HPfGUers -- > >Just letting you know of a service some List Elves are performing, >should anyone like to take advantage: > >We want to include as many people in our discussions as possible. If >you have a visual impairment, or other disability (like dyslexia) that >might make posting difficult, please let the Moderator Team >(HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com) know. > >We have a group of volunteers that are more than willing to proofread >your posts, which might make the process of expressing yourself to the >group easier. Our moderators are eager to help you make the most of >your time with us. Please, let us know how we can help you. > >How will this work? Any interested list member should e-mail the >owner address (HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com), letting us know >that you want to participate. After this, whenever you'd like to >make a post to the main list, you will first send it directly to the >helping elves (Joy -- joyw @ gwu.edu, Parker -- pbnesbit @ msn.com, >Mary Ann -- macloudt @ hotmail.com [without the spaces]). One of >them will proofread the post and make any useful corrections, then >send it back to the author who will then post it to the main list. >That's it! > >So, please, anyone who may have an interest, let us know. We look >forward to hearing from you! > >--Kelley, for the Mods and Elves > > > __________________________________________________________________ The NEW Netscape 7.0 browser is now available. Upgrade now! http://channels.netscape.com/ns/browsers/download.jsp Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ From karenoc1 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 15 22:52:53 2002 From: karenoc1 at yahoo.com (karenoc1) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 22:52:53 -0000 Subject: Lily Potter's Name/Evans is Welsh In-Reply-To: <20020914160204.78922.qmail@web21504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44047 Hi! I'm sure this must have been mentioned before, but "Evans" is a Welsh name. Do most of us connect Wales with King Arthur? And if so, what are the implications? Or am I just reading too far into the name? I've always been torn between a) connecting Lily's heritage to ancient magic, and b) believing that Lily is simply the first witch from a long, long line of Muggles. In many ways, I like better the idea that Lily was deeply magical and Muggle-born. Like Hermione, Lily proves the point that it just does not matter who your parents were or from where you came. But Lily invoked ancient magic to protect Harry, as apparently did Dumbledore when he placed Harry with the Dursleys, with his family. I believe she could do this because she was powerfully magical; would she necessarily need to be descended from ancient magical people to do this? Are Harry's connections to ancient wizards only through James? (For example, if Lily were descended from King Arthur, she could be connected to ancient magic and still come from a line of Muggles.) Maybe I'm just way too far out there! But what would a King Arthur/Merlin connection add to or detract from Lily's (and consequently, Harry's) storyline? "karenoc1" From psychomaverick at hotmail.com Sun Sep 15 23:57:49 2002 From: psychomaverick at hotmail.com (psychodudeneo) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 23:57:49 -0000 Subject: Divining and Predictions in the Wizarding World. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44048 With all of the, how should I phrase this? With all of the skepticism and disbelief that Professor Trelawney is faced with by both students and teachers at Hogwarts, I can't help but wonder if this is the norm for the Wizarding World? Are Seers and Diviners usually regarded with such derision and disrespect? Are they, for the most part, not taken seriously except on rare occasions? Or is Trelawney just an exception, a crackpot among a class that actually has special magical powers that many wizards and witches can't seem to tap into? What do you think? This has been bothering me for a while, as Trelawney is really the only example we get of this type of magic. Would you wager to say that she's a good example? Or a bad example? "psychodudeneo" From suzchiles at pobox.com Mon Sep 16 00:49:46 2002 From: suzchiles at pobox.com (Suzanne Chiles) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 17:49:46 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Divining and Predictions in the Wizarding World. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44049 Psycho (hope you don't mind the nickname) said ... > With all of the skepticism and disbelief that Professor Trelawney is > faced with by both students and teachers at Hogwarts, I can't help > but wonder if this is the norm for the Wizarding World? Well, McGonnagal (sp?) makes no secret that she thinks it's not a rigorous subject, and I have the feeling that many in the wizarding community share that feeling about the "soft science" of the seer. But I also get the feeling that Trelawny is probably treated with more disdain than other seers in the wizard world. But let's look at her prediction in Book 3. She's wasn't acting her normal self at all; she seemed to go into some kind of trance and spoke in a very strange voice. My little pet theory is that she does indeed have some psychic powers, but nothing all that great. I believe that her performance at the end of PoA was more like she was channeling the spirit of the as-yet-not-reborn-and-come-back-to-life Voldemort and that he was using her to speak for him. I think the channeling theory may be a good one. She is psychic to a degree, so her mind is certainly open to a spirit wanting to take over for a bit. And she does seem to be a bit of a space cadet, so there's plenty of room for someone else to move in for a bit. And finally, I do sincerely believe her when she said that she had no memory of what was said at all. Suzanne, who knows a few people who study the spiritual advice of some ancient guy called Ramtha and who speaks through a real estate agent (who has grown quite wealthy as a result of this; I mean, who am I to say it's a complete fake?) From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Mon Sep 16 01:14:42 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 02:14:42 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily Potter's Name/Evans is Welsh In-Reply-To: References: <20020914160204.78922.qmail@web21504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20020916014357.00a3b910@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 44050 At 22:52 15/09/02 +0000, karenoc1 wrote: >Hi! I'm sure this must have been mentioned before, but "Evans" is a >Welsh name. Do most of us connect Wales with King Arthur? And if >so, what are the implications? Or am I just reading too far into the >name? Well, calling Arthur "Welsh" is perhaps a bit much, but he was definitely a Celt, as was Merlin. The Celts were the majority "native" population in Britain after the Romans moved out; the Saxons were invited in the 5th century to help the local Celtic rulers fend of attacks from the Picts and Scots but ended up taking over, and pushing the Celts over into what we now know as Wales. Arthur's main achievement is to have kept the Saxons at bay and at peace. BTW I just thought I'd throw into the mix that Merlin's primary "magical skill" was foretelling the future... This may or may not have relevance to conversations about Trelawney... (of course, the above assumes that both Arthur and Merlin were real historical characters, which is a matter of some dispute and has been for over a thousand years.) :-) Yes, Evans is a Welsh name, but making a direct connection between that and the Arthurian legends is a major leap of the imagination. For instance, "riddle" is an Old English word, so is "dumbledore" - I've not seen anyone jump to conclusions linking those families. :-) Incidentally (and changing the subject for a moment), one of the reasons I've become interested (and a lot more knowledgeable) about Arthurian legends lately is that I've been reading up to disprove a net-based rumour which has recently resurfaced that "Voldemort" has a connection with an Arthurian character purportedly called "Voldemortist". Of course, it's all pure drivel - there is no such character. ;-) (there was someone in British history, about 100 years before Arthur's time, called Vortimer, latinized as Vortamorix, but he was a "goodie"; not to mention that he's only peripherally connected to the legends and there's no indication that he and Merlin ever met). >I've always been torn between a) connecting Lily's heritage to >ancient magic, and b) believing that Lily is simply the first witch >from a long, long line of Muggles. In many ways, I like better the >idea that Lily was deeply magical and Muggle-born. Like Hermione, >Lily proves the point that it just does not matter who your parents >were or from where you came. Lily's being 100% Muggle-born is an important part of my own reading of the canon, for those reasons and more. Lots of fans picture her family as "Squibbish", with Petunia's attitude towards Lily as jealousy about picking up the "magical gene", whereas she did not. My own reading is that Lily is the "different" one in that family, NOT Petuinia. >But Lily invoked ancient magic to protect Harry, As I read things, and as we know the situation at present, Lily didn't "invoke" any kind of magic. What overcame Voldermort's attack was her Mother love per se, which didn't need to be invoked in the way that spells and charms are. If anything, it was her act of sacrifice which "invoked" the ancient magic, not some kind of deliberate strictly magical action or incantation on her part. Again, as I read the canon (and the moral it tries to impart), it's not the fact that Lily was a witch which saved Harry, but the fact that she sacrificed herself for him: "love" is in itself magical. >as apparently did Dumbledore when he placed Harry with >the Dursleys, with his family. I believe she could do this because >she was powerfully magical; would she necessarily need to be >descended from ancient magical people to do this? A running theme in canon is that magical ancestry has little or nothing to do with one's own magical prowess, and further to my point above, I certainly don't see the need for her to have *any* magical blood at all to be an indicator of her powers. In some ways, Voldemort's and the DEs' bigotry on this is seen as one of their major faults. > Are Harry's connections to ancient wizards only through James? (For >example, if Lily were descended from King Arthur, she could be >connected to ancient magic and still come from a line of Muggles.) Arthur has no magical prowess. If you're looking for any magical ancestry in those legends, Merlin is where you should be looking. >Maybe I'm just way too far out there! But what would a King >Arthur/Merlin connection add to or detract from Lily's (and >consequently, Harry's) storyline? IMO, yes. Most definitely. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who hasn't posted for *ages* and is desperately trying to catch up with HPFGU! From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Mon Sep 16 02:04:03 2002 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 02:04:03 -0000 Subject: I Wanna Go Back To Pixies (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44051 I Wanna Go Back To Pixies To the tune of I Wanna Go Back To Dixie by Tom Lehrer Dedicated to Marina Frants (a fellow Lehrer fan) Hear an excerpt at: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004SWBH/qid=1032132729/sr=2 -1/ref=sr_2_1/002-3843865-5912055 THE SCENE: A room in St. Mungo's. GILDEROY LOCKHART, his memory almost fully restored, is about to be released. He plans his comeback, despite certain mnemonic gaps as well as a continued tendency to confabulate his stolen memories with his own experiences LOCKHART I wanna go back to Pixies Teach again about ol' Pixies A terrific gem for me's renewed memory. I recall what I'd forgotten `Bout that kid named Harvey Potten And my rescue of young Janey Willey (Got there in the nick of time.) I'll go back to do more signings For my fans for me are pining I'll stage a comeback that will be real grand They'll all toss bright confetti While I hawk "Year With the Yeti" As I clasp some sweet thing's sweaty hand (Imagining himself before an audience, LOCKHART role-plays some of the fabricated scenes from his earlier books) Oh, werewolf, How I fought ya, how I fought ya You bad ol' werewolf! Wont'cha hear just how I caught the Banshee A scoundrel right out of Thomas Clancy The spell was simple, it was nothing fancy But just like that, it worked. (But in a sudden flash of clarity, LOCKHART remembers that his imposture was exposed) But wait: they all know how I was just a fraud, you see No one believes a single word of my Odyssey So can I go back to Pixies Or are things now just too sticky? Would a comeback prove to be the Ultimate Flint? If I speak of vicious vampires Will they cry "He's a damn liar!" While Rita slurs my good name in print? I'm facin' destitution And bitter disrepu-tion Will I wander place to place like ol' Remus L.? They won't forgive Armenia Should I just resume amnesia ..? (LOCKHART takes up his wand) Be they ever so difficult I still know mem'ry spells .. (LOCKHART casts a Memory Spell on himself, erasing his memory again) - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Mon Sep 16 04:45:26 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb P) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 21:45:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily Potter's Name/Evans is Welsh In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20020916014357.00a3b910@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <20020916044526.3278.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44052 GulPlum wrote: At 22:52 15/09/02 +0000, karenoc1 wrote: >Hi! I'm sure this must have been mentioned before, > but "Evans" is a Welsh name. Do most of us connect > Wales with King Arthur? And if so, what are the > implications? Or am I just reading too far into the >name? Well, calling Arthur "Welsh" is perhaps a bit much, but he was definitely a Celt, as was Merlin. Me: I've never thought of Arthur when I think of the Harry Potter/Welsh connection. I have, however, wondered whether JKR wants us to think of one of the the first Princes of Wales, Henry IV or Henry V, both also known as Prince Harry. This, in turn, made me wonder whether the final battle with Voldemort will be an Agincourt-style rout, with the outnumbered underdogs defeating the French-named enemy (Voldemort, Malfoy, etc.--although I admit that "Crabbe" and "Goyle" don't sound very French). I also see Hagrid as something of a Falstaffian character, which makes me fear for his safety. In other words, if JKR is trying to evoke Wales, it could be for a number of reasons.... --Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eloiseherisson at aol.com Mon Sep 16 11:47:00 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 07:47:00 EDT Subject: Welsh influences/ "Voldemortist" (was: Lily Potter's name/ Evans is Welsh) Message-ID: <64.253e086e.2ab71eb4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44053 Barb: > > I've never thought of Arthur when I think of the Harry Potter/Welsh > connection. I have, however, wondered whether JKR wants us to think of one > of the the first Princes of Wales, Henry IV or Henry V, both also known as > Prince Harry. <> > > In other words, if JKR is trying to evoke Wales, it could be for a number > of reasons.... > Eloise: Evoking Wales, perhaps, but just to avoid any confusion for those unfamiliar with the term, 'Prince of Wales', I should point out that Henry IV and V weren't Welsh. The title has been customarily conferred on the Heir Apparent (to the English throne in those days, now the British throne) since 1301, following Edward I's defeat of Llewelyn and his subsequent annexation of Wales as a principality. Whilst I'm sure there may be unconscious forces at work in JKR's choices of names, I prefer to believe her when she says that Harry is simply her favourite boy's name (maybe the historical resonances have something to do with it). Welsh influences are not unexpected, given her childhood on the borders of England and Wales. We know that Potter is a friend's name. It's highly likely that she knew some Evanses. BTW, if we are to associate Harry with Henry IV, some might think it significant that, as well as having problems with rebellions in Wales, Henry had a lot of trouble with the Percy family in the north. He eventually defeated Sir Henry Percy ('Hotspur'), but the family continued to cause problems for the monarchy until the head of the family was killed a few years later. Richard (Gul Plum): >Incidentally (and changing the subject for a moment), one of the reasons >I've become interested (and a lot more knowledgeable) about Arthurian >legends lately is that I've been reading up to disprove a net-based rumour >which has recently resurfaced that "Voldemort" has a connection with an >Arthurian character purportedly called "Voldemortist". Of course, it's all >pure drivel - there is no such character. ;-) (there was someone in British >history, about 100 years before Arthur's time, called Vortimer, latinized >as Vortamorix, but he was a "goodie"; not to mention that he's only >peripherally connected to the legends and there's no indication that he and >Merlin ever met). Eloise: Ah....I'm glad someones been working on that one. I had a bit of a look into it too, but probably not as extensively as you. I agree. Pure drivel! ;-) But... sources, such as they are, say that Vortimer was the eldest son of Vortigern and there *is* a legend about Vortigern meeting the young Merlin, who fortells his defeat. And there's another Latin version of Vortimer, too, Vortimoricus. Though apparently it's really a *Welsh* name, too (Gwrthefyr=Vortipor). Or so I read. There was a Welsh tyrant by this name. While we're on the subject of Voldemort's name, there's Marvolo to contend with. Has anyone ever come up with an etymology for this? Is it just a handy name for constructing Voldemort (I suspect so). I confess that it amuses me, as it sounds just like a stage magician's name: Roll up, roll up for the Great Marvolo! I take great delight in imagining that Voldemort's grandfather wasn't a wizard at all, but merely a music hall entertainer! Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eloiseherisson at aol.com Mon Sep 16 11:49:37 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 07:49:37 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What's in it for Witches Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44054 JOdel: > (As another note; somebody (not here) has claimed that the pointing out of > Dean Thomas, Angelica Johnson and Lee Jordan as being of (stated or > implied) > African ancestry was an addition of the American hardback of SS, not > present > in the original UK hardback. Can anyone verify this?) > This is off the top of my head, but I think I'm right. Dean is described as black only in the American version. Lee is assumed black on evidence of dreadlocks. Angelina is described as black in GoF, UK ed. Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rvotaw at i-55.com Mon Sep 16 12:55:50 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (rvotaw at i-55.com) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 07:55:50 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily Potter's Name/Evans is Welsh Message-ID: <1500251.1032180950701.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44055 > > GulPlum wrote: > > At 22:52 15/09/02 +0000, karenoc1 wrote: > >Hi! I'm sure this must have been mentioned before, > > > but "Evans" is a Welsh name. Do most of us connect > Wales with King Arthur? And ifso, what are the > > > implications? Or am I just reading too far into the > >name? Might I take the opportunity to mention that the latin word evanesco means to die out? :) Um, you get it? If all of the Evans have "died out?" As in apparently the only surviving Evans is Petunia. I know, I'm sorry, I will now go slam my ears in the oven door. And I'd been so good for so long. No Latin, NO LATIN!!! Bad house elf. :) Richelle ---------- GulPlum wrote: At 22:52 15/09/02 +0000, karenoc1 wrote: >Hi! I'm sure this must have been mentioned before, > but "Evans" is a Welsh name. Do most of us connect > Wales with King Arthur? And if so, what are the > implications? Or am I just reading too far into the >name? Well, calling Arthur "Welsh" is perhaps a bit much, but he was definitely a Celt, as was Merlin. Me: I've never thought of Arthur when I think of the Harry Potter/Welsh connection. I have, however, wondered whether JKR wants us to think of one of the the first Princes of Wales, Henry IV or Henry V, both also known as Prince Harry. This, in turn, made me wonder whether the final battle with Voldemort will be an Agincourt-style rout, with the outnumbered underdogs defeating the French-named enemy (Voldemort, Malfoy, etc.--although I admit that "Crabbe" and "Goyle" don't sound very French). I also see Hagrid as something of a Falstaffian character, which makes me fear for his safety. In other words, if JKR is trying to evoke Wales, it could be for a number of reasons.... --Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From crussell at arkansas.net Mon Sep 16 14:35:14 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 14:35:14 -0000 Subject: Snape: What is he up to? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44056 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: > I know Dumbledore has full faith in Snape, but I'm wondering if it's misplaced. I'm wondering whether Snape is doing a doublecross on Dumbledore. > > JKR did tell us to "keep an eye on Snape," and believe me, I am! > > ~Phyllis Thanks for your response. I had not heard the above JKR quote before- very interesting. IMO, like I stated previously, since we see through Harry's eyes-we sometimes tend to lean heavily towards accepting Harry's assessment of others- IMO, especially in regards to Snape. According to the above JKR statement, she wants to keep us guessing in regards to Snape - and I say- Great!!- mysterious characters are always much more interesting to discuss. So I guess- we will just have to keep on wondering-just like Harry- why Dumbledore has no doubts in regards to Snape. bugaloo37-who thinks that Dumbledore is far too perceptive not to know what Snape is actually up to-perhaps we need to ask: who is using who? From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 16 14:39:04 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 14:39:04 -0000 Subject: Divining and Predictions in the Wizarding World. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44057 psychodudeneo wrote: > Are Seers and Diviners usually regarded with such derision and > disrespect? Are they, for the most part, not taken seriously > except on rare occasions? Now me: IMO, I see the wizarding world as generally being afraid of those who can foresee the future. I think wizards, like us Muggles, like to be in control of things, and wizards can't control the events predicted by a true Seer. I think the wizarding world deals with this fear by treating those who can See as frauds, and by viewing their predictions as jokes. Look at the reaction of the press and Fudge to the news of Harry's curse scar hurting him when Voldemort is nearby or "feeling murderous" in GoF. Instead of taking this seriously, which would be extremely frightening, they treat it as a joke, as if it's a poor reflection on Harry. Only those who are able to handle the fear, such as Dumbledore and Sirius, see it for what it really is - a sign of Voldemort's resurgence of power. ~Phyllis From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 16 14:48:42 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 14:48:42 -0000 Subject: Snape: What is he up to? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44058 bugaloo37 wrote: > According to the above JKR statement, she wants to keep us > guessing in regards to Snape - and I say- Great!!- mysterious > characters are always much more interesting to discuss. So I guess- > we will just have to keep on wondering-just like Harry- why > Dumbledore has no doubts in regards to Snape. > > bugaloo37-who thinks that Dumbledore is far too perceptive not to > know what Snape is actually up to-perhaps we need to ask: who is > using who? Now me: Here's the exact quote: Q: The character of Professor Snape fascinates me. Will you reveal his back story further in the next Harry Potter book? JKR: You will find out more about Snape in future books. Keep an eye on him! and the link: http://www.geocities.com/aberforths_goat/October_2000_Live_Chat_Barnes _Noble.htm I'm not convinced of Dumbledore's perceptivity. He's been a poor judge of character before (e.g., Quirrell, Lockhart). ~Phyllis From crussell at arkansas.net Mon Sep 16 14:51:20 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 14:51:20 -0000 Subject: Snape: What is he up to? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44059 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "ats_fhc3" wrote: > I'm of the opinion that Snape and Dumbledore talk a lot more than we > are shown, or than Harry sees, so I think that if Dumbledore tells > Harry that Snape has repaid his life-debt, it's the truth. > > Acire, who is missing her canon terribly, and wants someone to > publish an uncensored biography of Snape I too believe there are some secret meetings involving not just Dumbledore and Snape- but perhaps other members of the staff such as McGonagall as well. Obviously, there is some very important knowledge between Dumbledore and Snape that has not been shared with everyone-but I suspect others are in on this "secret" also - but then again maybe not. I too believe that Dumbledore is telling Harry the truth concerning the repayment of Snape's life-debt to James- but I just believe there is more to it than that- IMO, the key to understanding Snape lies in a certain amount of shared knowledge. The question is: what is it? bugaloo37-who is indeed "keeping an eye on Snape." From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Mon Sep 16 15:01:42 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb P) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 08:01:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape: What is he up to? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020916150142.33677.qmail@web13007.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44060 erisedstraeh2002 wrote: I'm not convinced of Dumbledore's perceptivity. He's been a poor judge of character before (e.g., Quirrell, Lockhart). ~Phyllis What you see as a poor judge of character I see as a headmaster who wants his students to learn more than what's in the books they're reading. Lockhart is an excellent example. Any student worth his or her salt will see through Lockhart's bluster and bravado. I believe Dumbledore WANTED this to be the case. Teaching the students to perceive a fraud is not something you can do by rote; they need to see an example in the flesh. I think Dumbledore knew EXACTLY what Lockhart was. At the end of CoS, there is every indication that Dumbledore knew Lockhart was full of it. He hired him to teach a different kind of lesson to the students, IMO, and sadly, Percy Weasley did not learn it. (He was in sixth year, and preoccupied with snogging his girlfriend. Perhaps if he'd learned the Lockhart Lesson he would have spotted what was going on with his boss in GoF.) As for Quirrell, he was teaching at Hogwarts for years with no problem. During his time off, he encountered Voldemort, who then possessed him. Dumbledore likely had no reason to think Quirrell was changed when he returned, turban or no turban. These are not what I'd call examples of being a poor judge of character. Dumbledore is very shrewd. He picked up on the Moody/Crouch thing from ONE clue: the fact that the real Moody wouldn't have removed Harry after he returned from the graveyard. That was enough for Dumbledore to know that Harry was in danger, and to enlist Snape and McGonagall for backup. 'Nuff said. --Barb (Who's feeling a bit like Hagrid, defending Professor Dumbledore, sir...::tugs on forelock::) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gwendolyngrace at yahoo.com Mon Sep 16 15:15:32 2002 From: gwendolyngrace at yahoo.com (gwendolyngrace) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 15:15:32 -0000 Subject: Quirrell's Tenure (Again) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44061 Hey, all. Yes, it's Gwen, venturing out from extreme lurkdom.... --- Phyllis wrote: > I just came across the following quote in Ch. 12 of > GoF: "They [HRH] had never yet had a Defence Against the Dark Arts > teacher who had lasted more than three terms" (UK ed., p. 155). I > know this is contradictory to what Hagrid says in SS/PS, but it seems > as if, at least by Book 4, JKR's intention was to have Quirrell's > first year at Hogwarts be his last. > Two quick things. First, correct me if I'm wrong, Brits, but isn't a "term" equivalent to a semester--or at least, to half or less than one full year? That is, you'd have Fall Term and Spring Term? My understanding of "term" is wonky, because I attended a secondary school that had three trimesters per year: September - December, January - March, and April - June. Each was roughly 12 weeks long. Thus, a teacher who lasted one year could be said to have also lasted three terms. Secondly, I don't believe that Harry's first year was also Quirrell's. Percy or Hagrid (or both) make comments that lead one to believe he has taught DADA at least one year prior to PS/SS, because they have to have a baseline to judge against. My books are home, but the line I'm thinking of is something like, "He was all right until he took a year off to travel." And then we get the backstory/rumour about having run afoul of a vampire in the forests of Eastern Europe. I don't want to be too specific for fear of getting it wrong. But in any case, it leads me to believe that Quirrell did teach prior to Harry's first year, and was somewhat less skittish during that period, because at least one character comments on the change. He could hardly have taken sabbatical before ever teaching, could he? Now, the real problem is that the text certainly leads one to believe that the "vampire" who traumatised poor Quirrell was actually Voldemort, and that the change in his personality is linked to Voldemort's possession. But according to the book, Voldemort only took possession of him after he met Harry in the Leaky Cauldron (as our past discussions on the turban and handshake have addressed). So if that's true, then no one at Hogwarts would have any indication that Quirrell is different until *after* he starts teaching again-- after Percy or Hagrid or whomever makes his comment about Quirrell losing his nerve. So it seems to me it's actually possible that Quirrell's "vampire" incident occurred during a previous year, while on sabbatical, and that the Voldemort incident occurred more recently. That, or perhaps Voldemort was the vampire, but it occurred at least two years previously, and Voldy only saw the need to possess Quirrell at the start of Harry's year. Still problematic, though. Hm. 1991-1992: Quirrell's final year/RIP August 1991: Voldemort possesses him 1990-1991: Taught after "Vampire" incident (change from baseline) 1989-1990: One-year sabbatical to travel - First encountered Voldy? - Source of "Vampire" incident 1988-1989: Taught prior to travelling, at least one year for baseline OR 1991-1992: Final year/RIP August 1991: Voldemort possession Summer 1991: Travelled and found Voldemort 1990-1991: Returned from sabbatical, much changed. "Vampire" rumours. 1989-1990: Sabbatical, something really did change him, but not Voldy 1988-1989: Taught prior to sabbatical for baseline assessment Either way, he must have been teaching by 1988, and I suspect earlier than that, in order to merit time off for field research. Personally, I think it's unlikely that Voldemort would encounter a way back to England and not use it, but it's possible that he was able to convince Quirrell to bring him back in some other creature, and lived through them until he had a reason to need a human host. That reason of course is Harry's arrival at Hogwarts. It's also unlikely that, having been frightened out of his wits once, Quirrell would use his summer to go travelling back in the same areas that got him in trouble previously. So either one of those explanations is correct, or it's a Flint. There's one other possibility. IF Quirrell is just returning from sabbatical during the summer of 1991, and IF he encountered Voldemort, and not a vampire, on that trip, and IF the speaker is Hagrid, not Percy, then Hagrid could know about the change in Quirrell's character because he's been at Hogwarts over the summer. Wait--I think that might work. He was in the Leaky Cauldron because he was at Hogwarts and overheard or found out about Dumbledore sending Hagrid to pick up Harry and the philosopher's stone and bring it back with him. So he sped down to London to try to beat Hagrid to it. That's why he was in the Leaky Cauldron, instead of at school or in Hogsmeade. But Hagrid already had time to observe that Quirrell was jumpier and more skittish than he had been, so he has the authority to say that it must have been something that happened while he was away. Therefore, the timeline looks like this: 1991-1992: Final year/RIP August, 1991: Voldemort takes possesssion July 31, 1991: Trip to London to nick the stone Early summer, 1991: Returns from sabbatical to Hogwarts, much changed, Voldemort in tow 1990-1991: Sabbatical during which he encounters Voldemort, brings him home somehow 1989-1990: Teaching year baseline What do y'all think? There could still have been other years prior to Quirrell's time off, but this way, he finds Voldemort and brings him back and gets possessed within a few months, rather than over a year. Gwen From crussell at arkansas.net Mon Sep 16 15:20:42 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 15:20:42 -0000 Subject: Snape: What is he up to? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44062 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: > I'm not convinced of Dumbledore's perceptivity. He's been a poor > judge of character before (e.g., Quirrell, Lockhart). > > ~Phyllis Please do not get me wrong- I am not saying that Dumbledore is omniscient-obviously not, or he would have known about the Marauders animagi and Barty/Moody. I am simply saying that when Dumbledore makes such a forthright statement concerning a particular person, we can put a certain amount of faith in it. As far as I know Dumbledore never actually verbalized any such support for either Quirrell or Lockhart ( if you can find it in canon-please let me know. I will acknowledge the possibility I overlooked it). As has been discussed before many times, finding a DADA teacher is apparently a hard task - also I was under the impression that whereas Dumbledore does indeed have a say in who will take certain teaching positions-his is not always the final say. Apparently in PoA, he had to do a lot of persuading in order to get Lupin hired. His lack in recognizing Barty Crouch does bother me somewhat- I will admit. And IMO, it may signal a certain amount of decrease in perceptive ability-this of course, is frightening. However, I do not believe that Dumbledore is down for the count yet. It has also been stated that Dumbledore is the only wizard that Voldemort truly fears-for whatever reason that may be, but at least on some level, this fear is based on Dumbledore's perceived abilities. bugaloo37-who is still willing to give Dumbledore the benefit of the doubt. From fyredriftwood at yahoo.com Mon Sep 16 16:04:01 2002 From: fyredriftwood at yahoo.com (Fyre Wood) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 16:04:01 -0000 Subject: OoP Prediction Derby (from the archives) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44063 Hickenguendler posted something that I thought I'd reply to, since I have yet to see it!--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "hickengruendler" wrote: > > Currently, I read some posts in the archive and found the OotP > survey. I don't know, if it's to late to poste my answers, however I > will do. > Hickengruendler Fyre Wood says: I think this is a great thing you found on archives... and I'm going to post my replies right below your questions =) > > 1. What new magical place will we visit? I'm honestly hoping for Harry to see Azkaban... then we can see the dementors again =) > > 2. Are any of the Dursleys wizards? Who? Dudley... oh wouldn't that be a kicker. If not Lily, then maybe Petunia. Then she'd get off her case of "my sister was a witch and I'm not, so I'll complain about it time and time again." > > 3. Identify the next DADA teacher. Arabella Figg. I thought Fleur, but y'all convinced me it's Figg. > > 4. Which "beloved" character(s) will die? Any other deaths, and > >if so, who? Ron... I'm sorry, but he has this evil thing about him that appears every now and then. If not Ron, then maybe Hagrid, since Dumbledore said he'd trust Hagrid with his life. Maybe Hagrid will "take a bullet" as the saying goes for his beloved Headmaster. > > 5. Of Lupin, Sirius, Krum, Fleur, Lockhart, Winky, Dobby, Moody, > > Bagman, Madam Maxime, which characters will have speaking lines in Lupin, Dobby (unfortunately) and I think that's it. I'd like to see Fudge return. Dobby is just too darn annoying.. and when you double that with Winky, you have one angry reader. > > 6. At the end of OoP, will Dumbledore be the headmaster? Nope. He'll be dead or on his death bed. > > 7. At the end of OoP, will Fudge be the Minister of Magic? Yes, and he'll be a puppet for Voldy. Fudge is EVIL! > > 8. At the end of OoP, will Neville be the same forgetful boy, or > > will he have changed in some way? Neville will start his transformation into a "stud." That's all I have to say on the subject. > > 9. At the end of OoP, will Sirius have cleared his name? Unfortunately, not. > > 10. Will Harry and Voldemort have a confrontation? What would a Potter book be w/o a confrontation. Gosh, it's like part of the basic plot structure. See Potter. See Potter at Dursley house being abused. Potter returns to school, faces Voldy, nearly dies, and all is well because he saves the day. > > 11. Of the following magical things, which will a character use or > > confront: pensieve, veritaserum, boggart, Marauder's Map, whomping > > willow, polyjuice potion, nifflers, portkeys, rememberall, floo > > powder, time turner, sneakoscope, foe glass, secrecy sensor, knight > > bus. The Maruader's Map I thought was gone. I'd like to see the invisibility cloak again =) > > 12. Will there be Quiddich at Hogwarts? There better be, or you'll have an angry mob. > > If so, who will be the Gryffindor Keeper? Ron. Neville will obtain an open possition once Angelina, Katie, and Gred and Forge leave. > > Gryffindor Captain? Harry... because it's just his luck. > > 13. Will anyone else turn out to be an animagus? Who? Uh.. no one? > > 14. Who is Mundungus Fletcher? Wasn't he the guy who was wearing the dress at the world cup? I hope he was because that guy was SO funny. > > 15. Will Wormtail use his silver hand in an important way? Yes, he'll attempt to kill Lupin with it. Misc Thoughts: Neville is NOT Evil. He'll sacrifice himself to save everyone. --Fyre WOod, who is now officially late for class. From gandharvika at hotmail.com Mon Sep 16 16:45:48 2002 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 16:45:48 +0000 Subject: [HP4Grownups]Burrow(FILK) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44064 Burrow (A Filk by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Our House_ by Madness) Arthur plays with Muggle stuff Molly, she's just had enough The twins are goofing 'round upstairs Ginny writes in her diary Percy works for the Ministry He won't come out Burrow, the home of the Weasleys Burrow, the home of the Weasleys The Burrow's quite a mess Always glad to have some guests Especially if it's Harry Ron thinks the Cannons are so cool Above his room the family ghoul Makes lots of noise Burrow, the home of the Weasleys Burrow, the home of the Weasleys Burrow, the home of the Weasleys Burrow, the home of the Weasleys Something about this place, Harry really loves to come to it Arthur's got another car Molly sends Ron to the yard To de-gnome the garden once again Then he's off to the paddock Plays Quidditch until after dark With his brothers Burrow, the home of the Weasleys Burrow, the home of the Weasleys I remember that one day when Bill and George came home to stay The Weasleys had such a very good time, such a nice time, such a happy time Molly cooked a great big feast, everyone sat down to eat Then Fred and George lit fireworks off in the night sky; that was really fine. Arthur plays with Muggle stuff Molly, she's just had enough The twins are goofing 'round upstairs Ginny writes in her diary Percy works for the Ministry He won't come out Burrow, the home of the Weasleys Burrow, the home of the Weasleys Burrow, the home of the Weasleys Burrow, the home of the Weasleys Burrow, one big happy family Burrow, the home of the Weasleys Burrow, down on Ottery Street Burrow, the home of the Weasleys (Repeat 'till fade) -Gail B. I *like* the Weasleys! _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From sugarkadi at aol.com Mon Sep 16 15:04:31 2002 From: sugarkadi at aol.com (sugarkadi at aol.com) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 11:04:31 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily Potter's Name/Evans is Welsh Message-ID: <6D9479B7.51841A0C.0290C41F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44066 Richard said: > As I read things, and as we know the situation at present, Lily didn't > "invoke" any kind of magic. What overcame Voldermort's attack was her > Mother love per se, which didn't need to be invoked in the way that spells > and charms are. If anything, it was her act of sacrifice which "invoked" > the ancient magic, not some kind of deliberate strictly magical action or > incantation on her part. > > Again, as I read the canon (and the moral it tries to impart), it's not the > fact that Lily was a witch which saved Harry, but the fact > that she > sacrificed herself for him: "love" is in itself magical. I think Lily's saving Harry has much more than just her love going for it. Voldemort supposedly killed a *lot* of people when he was in power, and I'm sure he killed some kids/babies of the parents he killed. No doubt some of those parents tried to protect their kids, but Voldemort managed to kill them; only Harry stopped him. In my opinion, the whole purpose of the series is to find out why Harry didn't die. It is directly connected to Lil's love, of course, but there must be something else we'll find out at the end of the series. Okay, does anyone understand what I just said? I tried to word it so it makes some sense. =) ~Katey From Ali at zymurgy.org Mon Sep 16 18:50:01 2002 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (alhewison) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 18:50:01 -0000 Subject: Quirrell's Tenure (Again) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44067 > --- Phyllis wrote: I just came across the following quote in Ch. 12 of GoF: "They [HRH] had never yet had a Defence Against the Dark Arts teacher who had lasted more than three terms" (UK ed., p. 155). I know this is contradictory to what Hagrid says in SS/PS, but it seems as if, at least by Book 4, JKR's intention was to have Quirrell's first year at Hogwarts be his last. > Gwendolyngrace replied:- Two quick things. First, correct me if I'm wrong, Brits, but isn't a "term" equivalent to a semester--or at least, to half or less than one full year? That is, you'd have Fall Term and Spring Term? My understanding of "term" is wonky, because I attended a secondary school that had three trimesters per year: September - December, January - March, and April - June. Each was roughly 12 weeks long. Thus, a teacher who lasted one year could be said to have also lasted three terms. Ali a Brit here:- As I understand the word "Semester", it is directly equivalent to our word "term". There are three terms in an academic year. But no, we don't have a "Fall term": we have "Autumn Term" ! So Harry would have Autumn, Spring and Summer Terms punctuated by "Christmas", "Easter" and "Summer" holidays. Ali From jodel at aol.com Mon Sep 16 18:51:13 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 14:51:13 EDT Subject: Hagrid's innocence Message-ID: <134.1450d622.2ab78221@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44068 Denise writes; << My explaination is that Hagrid really was the scapegoat only because the MoM had no idea who really opened the Chamber. Only Dumbledore suspected Riddle. It seems even then the MoM wasn't up to listening to Dumbledore's counsel. >> *sigh* Hagrid was the scapegoat because he was known to be always trying to raise monsters and because it was obvious to anyone who laid eyes on him that he was probably half-giant. (Which would be immediately confirmed as soon as anyone looked into his school records.) I should expect that having landed in Slytherin as a half-blood, Riddle was VERY well aware of the prejudices that were shared by those in positions of authority within the ww and was prepared to make use of them whenever he could turn them to his own advantage. Riddle is clever, but he isn't very subtle. Neither is Hagrid. As a prefect Riddle stumbled across the fact that Hagrid was trying to hide one of his "pets". Other students were probably trying to hide things too, but Hagrid already had two counts against him and Riddle knew that anyone with the typical wizarding attitude towards giants would automatically be disposed to believe Hagrid capable of anything. Where Riddle was concerned, Hagrid was simply begging to be framed, and had probably always been a part of Riddle's fall-back plan. For the record, I think that no one at the time (not even Dumbledore) was altogether convinced that the Chamber had actually BEEN opened. I very much doubt that Riddle went around writing his intentions on the walls in chickens' blood when he was taking the risks himself. And if the roosters of that time had also been slaughtered, the significance never was evident to anyone on staff at the time. That was the kind of thing that Dumbledore was able to note when the Chanber was opened in Harry's time, confirming his suspicions that, yes, there had been something in the rumors that were floating about fifty years earlier. And here we have another major piece of missing information. We don't know how long the situation went on fifty years ago. We don't know whether there was a similar series of close-calls back then. We can assume that whatever form of "death to mudbloods" terror campaign he was running the Chamber was not openly mentioned in it, or the rumors of the chamber having been opened previously would have been far more widely known by people other than the Slytherins with presumed DE connections. Riddle already had followers when he was a fifth-year, but he did not confide in them about his having found the Chamber. (That, only a select few were told of years later.) What was known at the time is that *something* was attacking people, and that rumors of the "Heir of Slytherin" were flying around the castle. Mostly from Slytherin House itself, and were taken with a grain of salt by the Hogwarts staff. In fact, given that Diary!Riddle claims that it took him 5 years to find the Chamber, he may have just intitated his reign of terror at Hogwarts before Myrtle's death and the threat that the school was to be closed and himself sent back to the orphanage. (Note; I've always been of the opinion that the scene in the diary of his having gone to ask to stay at Hogwarts over the summer break was actually a fact-finding expedition to discover what Dippet and the staff intended to do after the death of a student, rather than a just simple request to not be sent back to the orphanage. The request, much as he would have liked the idea, was primarily a cover story. I also am not convinced that Dumbledore suspected Riddle at the time. He did NOT believe Hagrid was responsible for the attacks. But suspecting Riddle isn't necessarily an automatic given. While he wasn't as blinded by Riddle's charm as the rest of the staff, he may very well have thought that Riddle had made an honest mistake. There is no question that Hagrid having brought an acromantula into the castle was extremely dangerous mischief on a high enough level that an inexperienced 5th year might quite reasonably have concluded that he had found the source of the present danger. And that there was no further trouble after Hagrid was no longer living in the castle would have gone a long way toward adding uncertainty to his understanding as to just what had been going on. It would have also gone some way among the people who kept the records toward the impression that perhaps it wasn't Hagrid's monsters which had made the attacks, but Hagrid himself. Which came back to haunt him when the chamber was opened a second time. As for Hagrid's "secret" ancestry; two generations of Hogwarts sudents have grown up aware of the gamekeeper's overgrown assistant, or, later, the overgrown gamekeeper. Some of them no doubt later concluded that he had giant's blood. But he was the gamekeeper, not a part of the staff that the students needed to deal with on any kind of regular basis. They thought nothing much about it. It was only when the fellow became a teaching member of the staff that this became an issue. And it was only when the suspicions were confirmed in the most blatantly sensational way that the ww seemed to have felt it needed to kick up a fuss. And that the fuss, wasn't nearly as big or even as long-lasting as the vilification over Hermione's "treachery" toward their hero Harry Potter would tend to indicate that it was no more than an eight-days' wonder for anyone who remembered him. -JOdel From crussell at arkansas.net Mon Sep 16 19:21:09 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 19:21:09 -0000 Subject: Divining and Predictions in the Wizarding World. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44069 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: > Look at the reaction of the press and Fudge to the news of Harry's > curse scar hurting him when Voldemort is nearby or "feeling > murderous" in GoF. Instead of taking this seriously, which would be > extremely frightening, they treat it as a joke, as if it's a poor > reflection on Harry. Only those who are able to handle the fear, > such as Dumbledore and Sirius, see it for what it really is - a sign > of Voldemort's resurgence of power. > > ~Phyllis Okay-I think we agree somewhat; however, IMO, I do not put Harry's scar on the same level with Trelawney's predictions. Harry's scar is a visible connection to Voldemort. Whereas Trelawney and her kind can only be accepted on the basis of a so-called ability- having some claim to a certain credibility based on predictions that have actually come to pass( in Trelawney's case, not very many, apparently)- Harry's one-on-one experience with Voldemort is well known; therefore, harder to cast aside. I see Fudge's and the press' reaction to the burning scar as not only a result of fear but of sheer ignorance-much like the reaction of the world to Hitler's rise to power. In other words, some people are going to ignore certain things until it effects them directly-while others are going to see what's coming and make an attempt to stop it. I agree that Dumbledore and Sirius, both take Harry's scar very seriously. IMO, they are both able to see the difference between a possibly half- baked prediction and a visibly active sign of Voldemort's power (the scar). IMO, fear is a remarkable thing. It can act as a catalyst or it can render someone powerless. I think we both agree that even though Sirius has at times acted impetuously - he does have Harry's best interest at heart and is wise enough to understand that what affects Harry, affects them all and I think this is Dumbledore's situation also. IMO, whether or not fear supported by ignorance is able to conquer an individual or a group of people is based on the ability of that particular person or group to act-to face their fear head on. In Dicken's "A Christmas Carol," the writer speaks through the voice of the Ghost of Christmas Present and tell us this: (paraphasing) the thing that should be feared most of all is ignorance for it is the doom of mankind. bugaloo37-who read an interview of Kenneth Branaugh today in which he compared JKR's writing to Dicken's- an opinion I thoroughly support. From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Mon Sep 16 19:49:09 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 20:49:09 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily Potter's Name/Evans is Welsh In-Reply-To: <6D9479B7.51841A0C.0290C41F@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20020916203253.009e8f10@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 44070 At 11:04 16/09/02 -0400, ~Katey wrote: >Richard said: > > > As I read things, and as we know the situation at present, Lily didn't > > "invoke" any kind of magic. What overcame Voldermort's attack was her > > Mother love per se, which didn't need to be invoked in the way that spells > > and charms are. If anything, it was her act of sacrifice which "invoked" > > the ancient magic, not some kind of deliberate strictly magical action or > > incantation on her part. > > > > Again, as I read the canon (and the moral it tries to impart), it's not > the > > fact that Lily was a witch which saved Harry, but the fact that she > > sacrificed herself for him: "love" is in itself magical. (before I comment, I just wanted to clarify that I closed the quotation marks in the wrong place there; they were meant to be closed after 'magical'.) >I think Lily's saving Harry has much more than just her love going for >it. Voldemort supposedly killed a *lot* of people when he was in power, >and I'm sure he killed some kids/babies of the parents he killed. No >doubt some of those parents tried to protect their kids, but Voldemort >managed to kill them; only Harry stopped him. Sorry, but what makes you so "sure"? I have no doubt that Voldemort and his followers have wiped out entire families, but this could well be a unique situation in which the child was the target rather than the parent or the family en masse. As far as we know from canon (and I find no reason to extrapolate anything different), Harry is the only case in which Voldemort *specifically* targetted the child, while *specifically* not intending to harm his/her parent. IOW, no other parent had has the opportunity to make the bargain, to offer their life *instead of* their child's. In other cases, the child may have been a "bonus" kill or one of many to silence or wipe out a family, but in this case, canon is specific in that Voldemort offered to let Lily escape scot-free. >In my opinion, the whole purpose of the series is to find out why Harry >didn't die. Oh, I disagree. Most strongly. :-) The whole purpose of the series is why Voldemort wanted to kill Harry *while sparing Lily*. How Harry survived is secondary to that, though perhaps the reason why Voldemort wanted him in the first place contains the answer (which I strongly suspect to be the case). >It is directly connected to Lil's love, of course, but there must be >something else we'll find out at the end of the series. Right now, I don't see any need for any additional action or intent on Lily's part to explain what happened (given what we know thus far). >Okay, does anyone understand what I just said? I tried to word it so it >makes some sense. =) Well, it made sense to me, even if I disagreed with just about every word. :-) Unless, of course, I *completely* misunderstood what it was *meant* to mean! From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 16 19:53:31 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 19:53:31 -0000 Subject: Quirrell's Tenure (Again) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44071 Ali said: > As I understand the word "Semester", it is directly equivalent to > our word "term". There are three terms in an academic year. But no, > we don't have a "Fall term": we have "Autumn Term" ! So Harry > would have Autumn, Spring and Summer Terms punctuated > by "Christmas", "Easter" and "Summer" holidays. Now me: Being an American, I wasn't familiar with the three term concept, either, but I guessed that term one is the period from the start of school to the Christmas holidays; term two is the period from the end of the Christmas holidays until the start of the Easter holidays; and term three is the period from the end of the Easter holidays to the end of school. Which is consistent with what Ali's telling us. Since I have another opportunity to add fuel to my "Quirrell only lasted one year" theory, I came across another line in GoF that I also thinks confirms this: "Snape had lost out on the Defense Against the Dark Arts job for four years running" (I don't have my book with me, so I may not have quoted this exactly, but this is the gist, anyway). ~Phyllis From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 16 20:23:53 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 20:23:53 -0000 Subject: Quirrell's Tenure (Again) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44072 Gwen wrote: > Secondly, I don't believe that Harry's first year was also > Quirrell's. Percy or Hagrid (or both) make comments that lead one > to believe he has taught DADA at least one year prior to PS/SS, > because they have to have a baseline to judge against. My books are > home, but the line I'm thinking of is something like, "He was all > right until he took a year off to travel." And then we get the > backstory/rumour about having run afoul of a vampire in the forests > of Eastern Europe. Now me: Here's the quote (Hagrid's speaking): "He [Quirrell] was fine while he was studyin' outta books but then he took a year off ter get some first-hand experience...They say he met vampires in the Black Forest and there was a nasty bit o'trouble with a hag - never been the same since. Scared of the students, scared of his own subject..." (PS Ch. 5, p. 55 UK edition). Hagrid says that Quirrell was "studying," not *teaching.* I interpreted this as Quirrell working toward some sort of advanced magical degree, and deciding that he ought to take some time off from his studies to get some practical experience, not that he was taking a sabbatical from teaching at Hogwarts. The part that's contradictory is the "scared of the students" line. How does Hagrid know that he's scared of the students if he's never taught before? Unless this is just a general reference to Quirrell's being scared of just about everything! Gwen again: > Now, the real problem is that the text certainly leads one to > believe that the "vampire" who traumatised poor Quirrell was > actually Voldemort, and that the change in his personality is > linked to Voldemort's possession. But according to the book, > Voldemort only took possession of him after he met Harry in the > Leaky Cauldron (as our past discussions on the turban and handshake > have addressed). So if that's true, then no one at Hogwarts would > have any indication that Quirrell is different until *after* he > starts teaching again. Me again: I agree that the text leads one to conclude that the change in Quirrell's personality was a direct result of his encounter with Voldemort in the forest, but I think the personality change happened *before* Voldemort took over Quirrell's body. Quirrell says: "I met him [Voldemort] when I travelled around the world...When I failed to steal the Stone from Gringotts, he was most displeased. He punished me...decided he would have to keep a closer watch on me..." (Ch. 17, p. 211). I interpreted this as Voldemort taking over Quirrell's body only after the failed attempt to steal the Stone from Gringotts. Which implies that Voldemort found another way to travel to the UK from the forest. And that Voldemort was controlling Quirrell even before he became a parasite. IIRC, Voldemort also confirms this in his graveyard homily in GoF. In order to make this make some sense, Quirrell must have been lined up for the DADA job before he went on his fateful trip to the forest. Hagrid would know that there was a change in his personality since Quirrell was probably spending some time at Hogwarts during the summer preceding his first year of teaching (which I believe ws Harry's first year at Hogwarts) in order to prepare his classes. ~Phyllis who appreciates Gwen's hard work on the Nimbus conference :-) From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Mon Sep 16 20:06:13 2002 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (=?iso-8859-1?q?Iris=20FT?=) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 22:06:13 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] What's in it for Witches? In-Reply-To: <017201c25c13$d666f1c0$978501d5@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <20020916200613.17943.qmail@web21510.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44073 Irene Mikhlin a ?crit : "Emma Hawkes" wrote: > This is an interesting list. Witches have a limited range of > employment possibilities, none of which stray too far from what is > normal in contemporary Britain. Witches may have authority over > children, but the top jobs are reserved for men (headmaster, Dark > Lord). The trouble with the theories is that one counter-example is enough to refute them. I could say many words on the topic, but two will do for starters: Madame Maxime. Irene Mikhlin I'd like to add two more: Lily Potter. There are many father figures around Harry (all male characters in the books can play that part) but there's only one important mother figure, Lily's. I read a very good essay by a philosopher about this topic. Witches seem to have less authority in Harry's world because in the boy's heart and mind there's only his mother. Mother and son still have a fusion relationship, beyond time, beyond death. That's a very particular way of telling us about Oedipus complew.One of the next things Harry will have to learn will be to renounce to this fusion, if he wants to become a full grown up being. As somebody in this group (sorry, I forgot the name)wrote, these story are also about growing up. Iris Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en fran?ais ! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Mon Sep 16 20:46:52 2002 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (=?iso-8859-1?q?Iris=20FT?=) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 22:46:52 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What's in it for Witches? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020916204652.90878.qmail@web21501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44074 : Pippin wrote: ?I think part of what Rowling is doing is twitting her female readers, and herself, for finding it so easy to identify with male protagonists. But also we know that she doesn't altogether approve of escapist fantasies, as Dumbledore's teaching about the Mirror shows. Perhaps she wants to show us that real power, for women and men both, does not rest in the ability to wield a wand, but in the ability to influence the hearts of others.? The last lines of this post remind me that Snape says, when he begins his potion class in PS/SS: ?As there is little foolish wand-waving here, many of you will hardly believe this is magic. I don?t expect you will really understand the beauty of the softly simmering cauldron with its shimmering fumes, the delicate power of liquids that creep through human veins, bewitching the mind, ensnaring the senses. I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper death- if you aren?t as big a bunch of dunderheads as I usually have to teach.? Snape?s main instrument as a teacher is not the wand but the cauldron, that is usually associated with female activities ( and don?t tell me I?m a nasty sexist; I only mention the old disgraceful clich? of women?s traditional representation) . Coincidence or not ? What do you think ? Iris Yahoo! 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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eloiseherisson at aol.com Mon Sep 16 21:08:01 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 17:08:01 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Quirrell's Tenure (Again) Message-ID: <102.1afc7e97.2ab7a231@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44075 Gwen: > So it seems to me it's actually possible that Quirrell's "vampire" > incident occurred during a previous year, while on sabbatical, and > that the Voldemort incident occurred more recently. That, or perhaps > Voldemort was the vampire, but it occurred at least two years > previously, and Voldy only saw the need to possess Quirrell at the > start of Harry's year. Still problematic, though. Eloise: The first problem I see with this is that it seems to assume (forgive me if I'm wrong) that either Quirrell really did change after his encounter with vampires, etc, or that he spent a year or more pretending to have changed, despite there being no ongoing plot to steal the Philosopher's Stone. Isn't the whole point of s-s-stuttering P-p-professor Quirrell is to distract attention from his being the one intent on stealing the Stone? That's what I'd always thought. He miraculously loses that stutter when he confronts Harry at the end, doesn't he? We know he's still in full control of his powers from the way he manages the trolls, both on Hallowe'en and on the night he tries to steal the Stone. I don't imagine he was stuttering the bucking broom jinx, either. So the vampire story seems to be a cover and there seems no reason to pretend a personality change a year or two before attempting to steal the Stone. *But*, you ask, why does Quirrell affect the change *before* the attempt at stealing the Stone from Gringotts fails? I originally thought that this made the whole situation even more FLINTy, but I'm not sure that it does. A competent DADA professor might be open to suspicion of stealing from Gringotts, I suppose. The second problem is that Voldemort gives us the time scale in the graveyard. He states that he met Quirrell four years previously. Gwen: > <>There's one other possibility. IF Quirrell is just returning from > sabbatical during the summer of 1991, and IF he encountered > Voldemort, and not a vampire, on that trip, and IF the speaker is > Hagrid, not Percy, then Hagrid could know about the change in > Quirrell's character because he's been at Hogwarts over the summer. Eloise: Yes, Hagrid (and he was the speaker) would know of the change of personality, but not that he was frightened of his own students, (unless we start assuming things about students staying over the summer, for which we have no evidence) which is what he says. Gwen: > > Wait--I think that might work. He was in the Leaky Cauldron because > he was at Hogwarts and overheard or found out about Dumbledore > sending Hagrid to pick up Harry and the philosopher's stone and bring > it back with him. So he sped down to London to try to beat Hagrid to > it. That's why he was in the Leaky Cauldron, instead of at school or > in Hogsmeade. But Hagrid already had time to observe that Quirrell > was jumpier and more skittish than he had been, so he has the > authority to say that it must have been something that happened while > he was away. Eloise: I think that's as close as we're going to get. But I can't make the evidence tie up. Going back a bit in your post, Gwen: >> "They [HRH] had never yet had a Defence Against the Dark Arts >> teacher who had lasted more than three terms" (UK ed., p. 155). >Thus, a teacher who lasted one year could be said to have also lasted >three terms. Eloise: Ali has clarified the British school term situation. My (British) reading is clearly that HRH have never had a DADA teacher who has lasted more than a year. *But* despite understanding the *words*, I do think the *meaning* of the sentence is ambiguous. It could be read either to mean that HRH had never themselves had an individual DADA teacher for longer than a year, *or* that none of the teachers they had had had survived in the job for longer than a year. (Three hads in a row! Think that makes sense!) I don't think we'll ever find a solution to this one! Not unless a little text change creeps into a future edition. Like being frightened of his shadow, instead of of the students! There's another interesting thing about what Hagrid says: he was all right while he was *studying out of books*, but then he went off for a year to get practical experience. You could read this to mean that he went staight from studying, to practical research (perhaps in preparation for his appointment at Hogwarts?) to his first teaching job. But we're still left with the 'frightened of the students' problem and the fact that Percy recognises Quirrell. Though Percy puts his nervousness down to the fact that he's dining with Snape, which might either indicate that Percy knew Quirrell before and recognises a change in his demeanour, *or* that he recognises him because he is new and thinks that, naturally, Snape is putting him on edge, so even this evidence is in the end ambiguous, I think. It's a FLINT, if you ask me. Phyllis has posted a couple of messages whilst I've been writing, some of which agrees with what I've said, some of which doesn't. I'll just take her up on this: Phyllis: >Since I have another opportunity to add fuel to my "Quirrell only >lasted one year" theory, I came across another line in GoF that I >also thinks confirms this: "Snape had lost out on the Defense Against >the Dark Arts job for four years running" (I don't have my book with >me, so I may not have quoted this exactly, but this is the gist, >anyway). Eloise: This is just part of the student rumour thing again, IMO, combined with Harry's viewpoint. Whether Quirrell was teaching at Hogwarts or not during the year before he went to Albania, he was not at Hogwarts the year before Harry started and the student rumour machine would surely have predicted that Snape would want to get the job in his absence. In fact, given that someone must have been teaching the year before Harry started, it should say, 'five years running', which is a give away that it's Harry's POV. Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com Mon Sep 16 23:08:21 2002 From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 16:08:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Long Time Gone [filk] Message-ID: <20020916230821.80770.qmail@web40306.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44076 LONG TIME GONE to the tune LONG TIME GONE by the Dixie Chicks Here's an short sample for Window's Media Player: http://www.windowsmedia.com/mg/search.asp?srch=Dixie+Chicks Dedicated to Gail...see, told ya I'd do it! The Scene: (GOF) Voldy, Wormy and Nagini are sitting in the Riddle's house in front of the fireplace. They are all pretty bored waiting for the events at Hogwarts to play themselves out, so they decide to have a little country jam-session. Wormtail is plucking on the banjo (doing a remarkable job with only four fingers), Nagini is on the fiddle, and Voldy is singing in his high voice about the events that brought him back to his daddy's place. VOLDY Daddy was eatin' at the supper table Grammy and Grampy sittin' there with Dad I came and opened up a can of whoop-ass and AK'd them all dead Took off after the dark arts a runnin' Made it so I'd never buy the farm Couldn't recognize me, changed my name to Voldy from there I've been a long time gone Been a long time gone No, I ain't been to Daddy's since I don't know when Long time gone But I had to come back again Harry was sleepin' in old Godric's Hollow His Momma and Daddy tried to hold me off They always thought that they'd be together But I always meant to do 'em harm! Asked me to spare her precious little baby Me, I had another thought Killed the Momma then went after Harry and Lord, I've been a long time gone Been a long time gone No, I ain't had a body since I don't know when Long time gone But I'm gonna get it back again! Now me, I went a floatin' round, trying to find my loyal ones Possesin' little snakes and critters, givin' creatures the jitters Found Quirrell in his prime but he failed me big-time Wormy's gonna lend a hand to help me get my body back! Now and me and Wormtail came back to Daddy's Milking Nagini for my hourly snacks Broke down Bertha to hear what's a-cookin', So a quick plan got dispatched The plan's a little weird, but it ain't LESTRANGE We're in hidin' so we have to CROUCH The minister is pro'bly gonna FUDGE He'll fudge, he'll fudge, he'll fudge cuz I've been Long time gone Yeah, Fudge ain't gonna think that I'm back again Long time gone Yes, I'm coming back, I said a long time gone No, I ain't AK'd since I don't know when Long time gone But I'm coming back again! VOLDY, WORMY AND NAGINI (singing/hissing in three-part harmony) I said a long time, long time, long time gone Oh, It's been a long time.... etc. ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* "Tut, tut --- hardly any of you remembered that my favorite color is *lilac*. I say so in Year with the Yeti." --Gilderoy Lockhart, COS --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rvotaw at i-55.com Tue Sep 17 00:37:45 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 19:37:45 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OoP Prediction Derby (from the archives) References: Message-ID: <019701c25de2$71b255a0$059ccdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 44077 Okay, I don't think I did this. I must reply, I love questionaires! > > > 1. What new magical place will we visit? I'm hoping for either Godric's Hollow or James and Lily's graves. > > > 2. Are any of the Dursleys wizards? Who? No. No. No. > > > 3. Identify the next DADA teacher. Arabella Figg, who's name, by the way, I have further piddled with and come to be convinced it means "Potter's sanctuary from war." In Latin, of course. (all right, I'll go bang my head on the desk again) > > > 4. Which "beloved" character(s) will die? Any other deaths, > and if so, who? The first one to go will be Hagrid. Then Neville. Possibly Lupin. And before it's all said and done, Ron, though I think he'll be with us all the way to the end and die in a most brave and noble way. > > > 5. Of Lupin, Sirius, Krum, Fleur, Lockhart, Winky, Dobby, Moody, > > > Bagman, Madam Maxime, which characters will have speaking lines in I think Lupin, Dobby, Sirius, Krum, Fleur, Moody, Bagman, and possibly Winky. > > > 6. At the end of OoP, will Dumbledore be the headmaster? Yes. > > > 7. At the end of OoP, will Fudge be the Minister of Magic? No, I think Voldemort will put someone in there. Someone he can trust, Fudge is too stupid I believe to really be evil. > > > 8. At the end of OoP, will Neville be the same forgetful boy, or > > > will he have changed in some way? He'll be beginning to change, but he'll still be forgetful. I think he was perhaps permanently brain damaged by a cruciatus curse performed at a very early age, so he can't get over that. But he'll be learning to adapt. > > > 9. At the end of OoP, will Sirius have cleared his name? No. I don't think he'll have his name cleared until the very end. > > > 10. Will Harry and Voldemort have a confrontation? No. He'll have a confrontation with someone on Voldemort's side, but not Volemort himself. Not this time. (If you don't believe me, see PoA. He doesn't face Voldemort there and it's still a good book). > > > 11. Of the following magical things, which will a character use > or confront: pensieve, veritaserum, boggart, Marauder's Map, > whomping willow, polyjuice potion, nifflers, portkeys, rememberall, floo > > > powder, time turner, sneakoscope, foe glass, secrecy sensor, > knight bus. I'm sure the pensieve will come back around, probably the polyjuice potion and maybe a time turner. I've got a theory about magical things appearing, but I'll save that for another day. > > > 12. Will there be Quiddich at Hogwarts? Yes. > > > If so, who will be the Gryffindor Keeper? Seamus. Don't ask, it just popped into my head. > > > Gryffindor Captain? Harry, because everybody likes him. > > > 13. Will anyone else turn out to be an animagus? Who? Well, I'm not sure if this counts but I think Trevor is an animagus. Perhaps Neville's great uncle. > > > 14. Who is Mundungus Fletcher? Obviously a nutty "old" guy who will probably provide some laughs. And he's part of the old crowd, so he'll probably be trustworthy. > > > 15. Will Wormtail use his silver hand in an important way? Not in OoP. But later on, yes. Ah, that was fun. Quick, somebody come up with more questions! Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Tue Sep 17 01:13:58 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 02:13:58 +0100 Subject: "Voldemortist" In-Reply-To: <64.253e086e.2ab71eb4@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20020917010515.00a5ba90@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 44078 At 07:47 16/09/02 -0400, eloise wrote: >The title has been customarily conferred on the Heir Apparent (to the English >throne in those days, now the British throne) since 1301, following Edward >I's defeat of Llewelyn and his subsequent annexation of Wales as a >principality. As a matter of pure pedantry (and completely OT, purely for information) AFAIK (as ever, I'm open to being proved wrong) there is no "British" throne. "Britain" is a geographical and topographical entity, not a constitutional one. There is the English crown (which includes the Principality of Wales, a few English Protectorates and Northern Ireland - the whole of Ireland "belonged" to England prior to the Act of Union) and the Scottish crown (which includes a few Scottish possessions, such as islands in the North Sea). Of course, by dint of the Act of Union, both English and Scottish crowns are held by the same person (ER II was technically crowned twice). Thus we have the United Kingdom, which is the only name for the constitutional and political entity we know, and some even love. :-) >BTW, if we are to associate Harry with Henry IV, some might think it >significant that, as well as having problems with rebellions in Wales, Henry >had a lot of trouble with the Percy family in the north. He eventually >defeated Sir Henry Percy ('Hotspur'), but the family continued to cause >problems for the monarchy until the head of the family was killed a few years >later. So, by extension, Harry is the nearest thing the Wizarding World has to royalty! That brings on several interesting thoughts! :-) >Richard (Gul Plum): (as a matter of pedantry but of absolutely no significance other than to myself, there is no space between the "l" and the "P") :-) >But... sources, such as they are, say that Vortimer was the eldest son of >Vortigern and there *is* a legend about Vortigern meeting the young Merlin, >who fortells his defeat. Oh, indeed. That meeting is actually very important to Arthurian canon, and (as far as I've been able to ascertain) always formed part of the core legends, unlike some of the later Merlin back-story which Geoffrey of Monmouth (not to mention even later writers) came up with, mostly of his own invention. However, Vortimer isn't part of any of the core Arthurian legends, and his inclusion only comes up because he was Vortigern's son. (Just for completeness, whilst Vortigern is generally accepted to have been a real historical character, Vortimer as we know him, like Arthur, is considered to be a purely mythical construct based on a concatenation of several real people; Merlin is generally considered to be based on two or three real "wise men" or bards of the time.) In any case, the relevance of this whole story to HP is that some people have presented Vortimer as an etymology for "Voldemort" (at least I assume it's Vortimer, as his is the only possibly vaguely similar-sounding name). The point is that Vortimer (whose name, incidentally, very roughly translates as "king of kings") would have been considered by Merlin, Arthur and Geoffrey as very much a Good Guy - Vortigern brought in the Saxons and then caused himself all sorts of trouble with them, while Vortimer tried to make peace with them and unite the Celtic tribes. 100 years later, Arthur achieved *exactly* that, for which he was (and is) considered a hero. Some of the legends have Vortimer being poisoned by his step-mother for his troubles... So why Vortimer (and especially his name) should be put forward as the inspiration for the HP series' ultimate Bad Guy is simply beyond me. >While we're on the subject of Voldemort's name, there's Marvolo to contend >with. >Has anyone ever come up with an etymology for this? Is it just a handy name >for constructing Voldemort (I suspect so). >I confess that it amuses me, as it sounds just like a stage magician's name: >Roll up, roll up for the Great Marvolo! I take great delight in imagining >that Voldemort's grandfather wasn't a wizard at all, but merely a music hall >entertainer! My own views are that you're on the right lines there, although I'd take it a step further. The Great Marvolo was a stage magician, but the "twist" is that he was actually a real wizard. My own imagined back story for him goes a little like this: He was little more than a Squib and so the wizarding community held no future for him. So, with the few abilities he had, he formed his own "magic trick" show to amuse the Muggles. Considering Tom's d.o.b. and thus a plausible age range for his mother, Marvolo would have been active at around the beginning of the 20th century (I still can't get used to calling it the last century) ;-) which was a major time not only for stage magicians, but also the "golden age" for spiritualism etc. A barely-competent wizard could have made a killing in those circumstances. His daughter (thus far un-named in canon) had true wizarding talent and was sent off to Hogwarts and it was at one of (by this stage quite elderly) Marvolo's stage shows that Tom Riddle Sr. met her. I know it's fanciful, but what the hell. I could've written it up as a fanfic, but I'm no good at that kind of thing. :-) From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Tue Sep 17 01:52:43 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 02:52:43 +0100 Subject: Name meanings: Arabella Figg In-Reply-To: <019701c25de2$71b255a0$059ccdd1@istu757> References: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20020917022131.00983ef0@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 44079 At 19:37 16/09/02 -0500, Richelle Votaw wrote, in the " OoP Prediction Derby" thread: >Arabella Figg, who's name, by the way, I have further piddled with and come >to be convinced it means "Potter's sanctuary from war." In Latin, of >course. (all right, I'll go bang my head on the desk again) ARRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!! Sorry, you've hit a VERY sore nerve there. I am currently on the warpath in HP fandom against some of the more fanciful, ill-conceived, ill-informed or just simply incorrectly justified etymologies floating around. You may have noticed that I've just been dealing with "Voldermortist" in another thread, and "Arabella" is an old chestnut which I have been arguing ever since I entered HP fandom last November, and which I last addressed on HPFGU last month in message #42623. Briefly, it all hinges on the meaning of "bella". Expanding on (and cleaning up) what I said last time, it does NOT mean "war" - it is a plural accusative, and means "wars'" (note apostrophe, ie "belonging to the wars", or "of the wars"). In effect, insisting on using that particular word origin would establish a meaning for Arabella of "refuge of the wars", or more descriptively, if literally meaninglessly, "the place where the wars are safe". This is COMPLETELY the opposite of what Arabella's role in the story would appear to be. The basic, principal meaning of "bella" is a female nominative singular adjective meaning "beautiful"; "ara" is a female nominative singular noun meaning "altar", "sanctuary" or "refuge". I leave as an exercise for the reader to work out what it might mean. Note the grammatical concordance, whose absolutely vital importance is often lost on people who only speak/write English and have little appreciation for the vagaries of inflected languages. I repeat what I said last time: Grabbing Latin vocabulary out of the air without considering the grammar is a dangerous route to establishing false etymologies. In fact, I saw an example elsewhere which has gone a step further. Obviously having picked up his/her scant knowledge of Latin in oral rather than written form, the author insists that "ara" means "alter" (rather than "altar"), and using zero knowledge of Latin grammar or etymological methodology, has come up with the utterly preposterous "She who alters the Potter wars". I'm off to slash my wrists. Although I might fight the cause of rational etymology some more first... From millergal8 at aol.com Tue Sep 17 02:31:19 2002 From: millergal8 at aol.com (millergal8 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 22:31:19 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily Potter's Name/Evans is Welsh Message-ID: <17b.e9d7274.2ab7edf7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44080 In a message dated 9/16/02 11:36:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time, sugarkadi at aol.com writes: << I think Lily's saving Harry has much more than just her love going for it. Voldemort supposedly killed a *lot* of people when he was in power, and I'm sure he killed some kids/babies of the parents he killed. No doubt some of those parents tried to protect their kids, but Voldemort managed to kill them; only Harry stopped him. In my opinion, the whole purpose of the series is to find out why Harry didn't die. It is directly connected to Lil's love, of course, but there must be something else we'll find out at the end of the series. Okay, does anyone understand what I just said? I tried to word it so it makes some sense. =) ~Katey >> I agree with you 100%. While love does have a magic of its own, it still isn't enough to ward off death. If you use that as an arguement, theoretically, a non-wizard mother could throw herself in front of an armed assailant for her child and the next bullet would rebound on the criminal. No, magic has _everything_to do with Harry surviving that night. I believe Lily's sacrifice somehow magnified the magic she had within her, but there is also something unique to Harry that we don't know about yet. Perhaps no one knows what is inside Harry. And V'mort, thinking he is now invincible to Lily's sacrifice magic will now be ultimately destroyed (or as ultimately destroyed as the personification of evil can be) by -Harry's- secret weapon. Christy From rvotaw at i-55.com Tue Sep 17 02:45:59 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 21:45:59 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Name meanings: Arabella Figg References: <4.2.0.58.20020917022131.00983ef0@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <003c01c25df4$5b876b00$e4a0cdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 44081 I wrote: > >Arabella Figg, who's name, by the way, I have further piddled with and come > >to be convinced it means "Potter's sanctuary from war." In Latin, of > >course. (all right, I'll go bang my head on the desk again) To which Gul Plum replied: > ARRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!! > > Sorry, you've hit a VERY sore nerve there. > Briefly, it all hinges on the meaning of "bella". Expanding on (and > cleaning up) what I said last time, it does NOT mean "war" - it is a plural > accusative, and means "wars'" (note apostrophe, ie "belonging to the wars", > or "of the wars"). In effect, insisting on using that particular word > origin would establish a meaning for Arabella of "refuge of the wars", or > more descriptively, if literally meaninglessly, "the place where the wars > are safe". Okay, perhaps I am a complete idiot, and perhaps incapable of reading a Latin dictionary properly but here is what my dictionary tells me: bellatrix (which I don't like using, as the a is a long a sound, not short): female warrior bello: wage war bellum: war; combat; fight belli: at the wars No apostrophes in sight. > The basic, principal meaning of "bella" is a female nominative singular > adjective meaning "beautiful"; "ara" is a female nominative singular noun > meaning "altar", "sanctuary" or "refuge". I leave as an exercise for the > reader to work out what it might mean. The word "bella" is no where in my Latin dictionary, so I can't say. However, looking up beautiful in the English portion, gives nothing remotely close to bella. > Note the grammatical concordance, whose absolutely vital importance is > often lost on people who only speak/write English and have little > appreciation for the vagaries of inflected languages. I repeat what I said > last time: Grabbing Latin vocabulary out of the air without considering the > grammar is a dangerous route to establishing false etymologies. Now, if you have read what I wrote above, you will find that based on MY Latin dictionary, which has no apostrophe anywhere involving war or wars, is accurate. Stop screaming. I said based on MY Latin dictionary. It doesn't mean it is accurate. It's possible there's a mistake in the dictionary. But I am defending my intelligence here. I did not study three languages (not counting English) throughout high school and college on my way to Master's degree in Educational Technology by being a complete idiot who can't read a dictionary. Besides, my emphasis was more on "Figg" that could come from "figulus" which means Potter. A while back I had a wild notion that Arabella Figg was related to Harry, not by blood, but as an inlaw, based on the meaning of "figulus." I've changed my mind, as I think it reads better as an entire statement, which I will not dare to repeat as I've been yelled at once already. Going to bed now, before I say anything else stupid. Richelle From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Tue Sep 17 02:54:55 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 03:54:55 +0100 Subject: Name meanings: Hagrid Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20020917025923.00a5b480@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 44082 I'm on a roll... I didn't plan this to happen, but having written the messages about "Voldemortist" and "Arabella Figg", I thought I'd take a look at MuggleNet's "name origins" page to see what they've come up with and was utterly astonished to see this one: "Hagrid: Name and tale comes from greek myth. The ancient Hagrid from the myth was the god of Jewels. This god was said to be the kindest of the gods, but Hades framed him for the death of Piraeus's (the killer of Medusa) son. Hagrid was banished from Olympus but Zues allowed him to stay as the watcher of the animals. " Where did they get "Piraeus" from? As far as I'm aware (and I think I know my Greek mythology fairly well), Medusa was killed by Perseus. It's his main claim to fame. Piraeus, I was always taught, is/was the main port in Athens. Now, I admit that I'd never heard of a "Hagrid" in Greek mythology, so I was prepared to assume that I might not know as much as I thought. However, no online source about Greek mythology (http://www.pantheon.org/areas/mythology/europe/greek/articles.html seems like a good place to start) seems to have heard of this character. I've also been through several books on the subject, and none of them have heard of Hades "framing" anyone even vaguely related to Perseus. Before I go to town on the folks at MuggleNet, does anyone here know anything about this? I noticed that they include the derivations I've already addressed in the other two posts, but there's some kind of strange and twisted (if incorrect) logic to them. This Hagrid one appears to have absolutely nothing even vaguely correct about it, no name similarities or *anything*, so assuming this is all baloney, I'm trying to work out how they may have reached their conclusions. Any theories? From chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com Tue Sep 17 04:11:48 2002 From: chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com (alora) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 04:11:48 -0000 Subject: OoP Prediction Derby (from the archives) In-Reply-To: <019701c25de2$71b255a0$059ccdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44083 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > Okay, I don't think I did this. I must reply, I love questionaires! Oh! oh! Me too! Can I do this too? :D 1. What new magical place will we visit? I want to see Godric's Hollow or MoM. 2. Are any of the Dursleys wizards? Who? Heh. Uncle Vernon. 3. Identify the next DADA teacher. Neville's Gran or Molly Weasley (my favorite). Any mother with that many children has quite a few tricks up her sleeve. 4. Which "beloved" character(s) will die? Any other deaths, and if so, who? Yeesh. Tough one. I think Hagrid will die, but I also think that because this is a war, many more will, too. Definitely Dumbledore, too, but much later in the story. 5. Of Lupin, Sirius, Krum, Fleur, Lockhart, Winky, Dobby, Moody, Bagman, Madam Maxime, which characters will have speaking lines in OoP. I don't think we will see much of Krum or Fleur. At least I hope not. I think we will see the most of Lupin Sirius and Moody. 6. At the end of OoP, will Dumbledore be the headmaster? Yes. I certainly hope so. 7. At the end of OoP, will Fudge be the Minister of Magic? This is one I am not sure about. I don't think Fudge is very "bright." I just can't see him staying in that position. But then, he could always surprise us and show some spine later on. I don't know. 8. At the end of OoP, will Neville be the same forgetful boy, or will he have changed in some way? I agree with everyone else on this one. He's going to change, I just don't know how yet. I'd like to think he gets a chance to kick some a** and realize how strong he is, therefore changing his perception of himself forever. 9. At the end of OoP, will Sirius have cleared his name? I'll use what Richelle said on this one: "No. I don't think he'll have his name cleared until the very end." Ditto. 10. Will Harry and Voldemort have a confrontation? No, I don't think so. There have to be other powerful wizards besides Harry that will be at the "right place at the right time" so- to-speak. Does that make sense? It can't ALWAYS be Harry, alone, facing the dark forces of evil, can it? I would like to see what some of the other characters can do. Although they might get killed in the process, come to think of it..... 11. Of the following magical things, which will a character use or confront: pensieve, veritaserum, boggart, Marauder's Map, whomping willow, polyjuice potion, nifflers, portkeys, rememberall, floo powder, time turner, sneakoscope, foe glass, secrecy sensor, knight bus. All of them, I hope! 12. Will there be Quiddich at Hogwarts? OH yeah. If so, who will be the Gryffindor Keeper? Ron. :D Come on, the guy needs a chance to show what he's got. Gryffindor Captain? Harry, just because he's Harry *sigh* 13. Will anyone else turn out to be an animagus? Who? I'm stabbing in the dark here, but Arthur Weasley. ;-) 14. Who is Mundungus Fletcher? He's going to be like Obi Wan. Remember in "Star Wars" when Uncle Owen told Luke, "That one's just a crazy old man." That's Mundungus. He looks and acts crazy, but I bet he's a lean, mean fighting machine when it comes right down to it. Hehe! 15. Will Wormtail use his silver hand in an important way? Probably. I find Peter Pettigrew REALLY annoying. All the grovelling, snivelling and backstabbing don't endear me to him. I just hope he pays off his debt to Harry in a good way. I agree with Richelle!! Someone make up a new survey! I'm sorry I missed it the first time! Alora :) From cureluv88 at hotmail.com Tue Sep 17 05:12:47 2002 From: cureluv88 at hotmail.com (Liz) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 05:12:47 -0000 Subject: OoP Prediction Derby (from the archives) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44084 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "alora" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > > Okay, I don't think I did this. I must reply, I love > questionaires! > > Oh! oh! Me too! Can I do this too? :D And now I will take a turn. > 1. What new magical place will we visit? I am going to say Godric's Holow, althoug someone else suggested James and Lily's graves, and I think that's an interesting idea. > > 2. Are any of the Dursleys wizards? Who? > Aunt Petunia, I bet > > 3. Identify the next DADA teacher. > I bet it will be Arabella Figg, but I'd love it if it were Molly Weasley. > 4. Which "beloved" character(s) will die? Any other deaths, > and if so, who? > I think the death in OoP may be Hagrid, and man, I hate that. > > 5. Of Lupin, Sirius, Krum, Fleur, Lockhart, Winky, Dobby, Moody, > Bagman, Madam Maxime, which characters will have speaking lines in > OoP. > Lupin, Sirius, Krum (maybe), Dobby, Moody, Bagman > > 6. At the end of OoP, will Dumbledore be the headmaster? > I think so. I hope so. Yes, I think he still will. But I bet he won't by the end of book six. > > 7. At the end of OoP, will Fudge be the Minister of Magic? > Here's something that popped into my head - I think Fudge will die and Lucius Malfoy will replace him. > > 8. At the end of OoP, will Neville be the same forgetful boy, or > will he have changed in some way? I think we will continue to see Neville change. Just as in PoA, there were hints that Ron and Hermione had some romantic feelings going on, by GoF, it was much more evident. That's how I think it will work with Neville, with OoP being much more evident that GoF, but not making everything completely clear. > 9. At the end of OoP, will Sirius have cleared his name? > No, not yet. But wouldn't it be great? Perhaps his name will be cleared, or attempted to be, in some sort of big MoM decision that could be part of the climax of the book. Just thinking... > 10. Will Harry and Voldemort have a confrontation? > I bet not, not in this book. But I'm sure other evil people will be around. Perhaps he will somehow come into contact with Voldemort through something else (someone controlled by Voldemort, some situation arranged and controlled by Voldemort, etc) > 11. Of the following magical things, which will a character use > or confront: pensieve, veritaserum, boggart, Marauder's Map, > whomping willow, polyjuice potion, nifflers, portkeys, rememberall, > floo > powder, time turner, sneakoscope, foe glass, secrecy sensor, > knight bus. Marauder's Map (thought maybe Harry will not have it back in his posession), maybe foe glass and secrecy sensor, definitely pensieve. > > 12. Will there be Quiddich at Hogwarts? > Yes. > > > If so, who will be the Gryffindor Keeper? > Hmm. It'd be nice if it was Ron. That just doesn't feel quite right to me, though. Hmm. Everyone else seems LESS right than Ron, though. Sigh. I don't know. > > Gryffindor Captain? > Harry. I think so, anyway. Either Harry or Angelina. > > > 13. Will anyone else turn out to be an animagus? Who? > No, I'd like to think we're done with animagi for awhile (perhaps the issue will spring back up later on when we aren't looking for it, in a later book) > > 14. Who is Mundungus Fletcher? > I like others' view of him as someone who seems nutty, but is really very powerful. > > 15. Will Wormtail use his silver hand in an important way? > I'm sure he'll use it importantly at some point, but I'm going to say not in book five. > Thanks for the survey, guys! It was fun! Lizbot From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Sep 17 05:49:28 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 05:49:28 -0000 Subject: Question: OoP Predictions and Death Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44085 Great prediction list in the group right now. It's interesting to see everyone's opinion. Although, looking at the question regarding who will die, brought up a new question. At least a new question in my mind. JKRowling has said there will be more deaths coming, but I don't think she necessarily said they would be in this next book. That certainly doesn't invalidate speculation on, if some one will die in OoP, and who that someone might be. It was just a thought that occurred to me. Can anyone confirm that? Was it a general statement, or was she actually talking about OoP? - - - - - - - - - As far as who will die in the series, sadly, I think it will be Neville. Neville will discover he has great wizarding powers and use them to die a hero's death. It wouldn't even surprise me,... well, actually it would, ...but I could see Neville being the one who ultimately defeats Voldie. (this from a confirmed member of NINE and the Neville fan club.) Also, I refuse to accept Ron dying. I like him too much. - - - - - - - - - Sorry for the short post. Thanks. bboy_mn From pen at pensnest.co.uk Tue Sep 17 07:17:54 2002 From: pen at pensnest.co.uk (Pen Robinson) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 08:17:54 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Name meanings: Arabella Figg In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20020917022131.00983ef0@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <9563CF8C-CA0D-11D6-8468-0030654DED6A@pensnest.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 44086 On Tuesday, September 17, 2002, at 02:52 , GulPlum wrote: > > I'm off to slash my wrists. Although I might fight the cause of rational > etymology some more first... > No, no. Please keep fighting. It's appreciated. Pen From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Tue Sep 17 07:53:45 2002 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 07:53:45 +0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44087 _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Tue Sep 17 08:00:20 2002 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 08:00:20 +0000 Subject: Fwd: Unable to deliver your message Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44088 _________________________________________________________________ Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Tue Sep 17 08:11:48 2002 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 08:11:48 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] re: House colors / The Thread about Bullying, with lots of MWPP - SS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44089 ><< I do feel a faint twitch at the general irrelevance of the two >female-led Houses. >> > >Look at the House colors: Gryffindor red and gold, Slytherin green >and silver, Ravenclaw blue and bronze, Hufflepuff yellow and black. >And we all know the meanings of gold medal, silver medal, bronze >medal, and no medal. Speaking as a Ravenclaw, g'rrr at JKR for >making her favoritism so clear. (Well, speaking as a Ravenclaw whose >favorite color is blue and LOVED the old idea of Ravenclaw's colors >being blue and silver.) > >Well, to be fair: in heraldry there is no bronze and no yellow. There >is only Or (translated 'gold'). So the Gryffies get gules and Or, the >Claws get azure and Or, and the Puffs get Or and sable. Only the >Slythies get argent instead of Or. Thus emphasizing their "House that >stands alone" status. > Hi all - It's my belief that sable here is intended to stand for iron, the basest of the metals. And that red, green, blue and yellow are intended to stand forth as simple primary colors (although green isn't really a primary) that are distinctive - purple might have been another choice rather than yellow, but in certain values can look too close to blue, or sometimes red. So it's not true period heraldry, but more symbolic, IMHO. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From eloiseherisson at aol.com Tue Sep 17 10:41:40 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 06:41:40 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Name meanings: Arabella Figg Message-ID: <182.e84a174.2ab860e4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44090 Eloise, hearing a commotion from the classroom she is passing, finds Richard (whose nerves I am becoming quite concerned about) bouncing a ferret on the floor. Brandishing her wand and transforming the ferret back into an indignant Richelle, she demands an explanation: [That's it. I'm not really TBAYing, I just couldn't resist the image!] Richard: > Briefly, it all hinges on the meaning of "bella". Expanding on (and > cleaning up) what I said last time, it does NOT mean "war" - it is a plural > > accusative, and means "wars'" (note apostrophe, ie "belonging to the wars", > > or "of the wars"). In effect, insisting on using that particular word > origin would establish a meaning for Arabella of "refuge of the wars", or > more descriptively, if literally meaninglessly, "the place where the wars > are safe". Eloise: Sorry, Richard. I'm confused. I've read the above passage several times, mindful of the last time I jumped in on a thread only to find I'd misread a sentence (I think it was Richelle's as it happens). The accusative case indicates that the noun in question is the *direct object* of a verb. It is the *genitive* case which indicates possession. In the case of bellum which, if memory serves, is second declension neuter, the genitive plural ("wars' ") would be bellorum, wouldn't it? 'Bella' could be either nominative, vocative or accusative plural. But not genitive. If it is accusative, we cannot translate it with an apostrophe... Can we? If 'bella' is a noun, rather than an adjective, the combination is as you say, meaningless: the juxtaposition of two nouns unconnected in any meaningful way by case. > <> > The basic, principal meaning of "bella" is a female nominative singular > adjective meaning "beautiful"; "ara" is a female nominative singular noun > meaning "altar", "sanctuary" or "refuge". I leave as an exercise for the > reader to work out what it might mean. And this, before you find reason to disagree with me again, is exactly what I said too, the last time round. *If* we are to derive Arabella this way, which I don't think we should! But I don't see that in isolation, the adjectival meaning is any more basic than the nounal one. My Latin primer was full of 'bella'! Be fair to Richelle. She does realise that her etymologies are considered fanciful by Latinists (you do, don't you?) - hence banging her head on her desk. OK. On to Richelle's post: Time for a brief lesson in basic Latin, I feel. (My Latin doesn't go much beyond basic!) Richelle: >Okay, perhaps I am a complete idiot, and perhaps incapable of reading a >Latin dictionary properly but here is what my dictionary tells me: >bellatrix (which I don't like using, as the a is a long a sound, not short): >female warrior >bello: wage war >bellum: war; combat; fight >belli: at the wars >No apostrophes in sight. Eloise: No, there aren't. The problem is that Latin nouns and adjectives decline in a way that many (?most - unlike you, I'm not a linguist) modern languages don't. Latin dictionaries assume knowledge of this. There are a number of different declensions, with variants according to the gender of the word. Bellum which, as I have said, is a neuter noun of the second declension, goes like this: singular plural Nominative bellum (a war) bella vocative bellum (o war!) bella accusative bellum (a war) bella genitive belli (of a war) bellorum dative bello (to or for a war) bellis ablative bello (by,with or from a war) bellis Richard: > The basic, principal meaning of "bella" is a female nominative singular > adjective meaning "beautiful"; <> Richelle: >The word "bella" is no where in my Latin dictionary, so I can't say. >However, looking up beautiful in the English portion, gives nothing remotely >close to bella. Eloise: It doesn't in mine, either. I bet you got 'pulcher', didn't you? (And incidentally, that's the masculine form, so if you wanted to use it to describe a girl, you would have to alter it to 'pulchra'. My dictionary assumes you know that.) In the English-Latin section of mine, 'bellus' only occurs as a translation of 'nice'! However, in the Latin-English section of my dictionary, 'bellus' is defined as, 'pretty, handsome, pleasant, nice'. 'Bellus' is the masculine nominative singular form, the form in which adjectives are normally listed in the dictionary. Try looking that up. I assure you, it's one of the first, basic adjectives that you learn. Or at least, it was, way back when. Now... Adjectives decline in just the same way as nouns. If agreeing with a neuter noun, 'bellus( -a -um)' would be declined like 'bellum', above. If agreeing with a feminine noun (such as 'ara'), it would be declined, nom. bella bellae voc. bella bellae acc. bellam bellas gen. bellae bellarum dat. bella bellis abl. bella bellis To anyone who does have a smattering of Latin grammar, the obvious, first, *Latin* meaning of 'ara bella' is 'beautiful altar', or 'beautiful sanctuary'. In RL, names frequently change forms, hence one of the difficulties in deriving them. OTOH, if JKR wanted to use Arabella as a Latin word to convey something, then I think she would *probably* use the obvious meaning. Richelle: <>Now, if you have read what I wrote above, you will find that based on MY >Latin dictionary, which has no apostrophe anywhere involving war or wars, is >accurate. Stop screaming. I said based on MY Latin dictionary. It doesn't >mean it is accurate. It's possible there's a mistake in the dictionary. Eloise: No, there's no mistake in your dictionary. It's just that as I indicated above, the dictionary will give only certain basic forms of a word, assuming that you know how to make the other forms. The genitive forms do tend to be indicated, though. In the Latin - English section of mine, for instance, 'bellum' is given as, 'bellum, -i n. war'. That tells you how you should expect to decline it. Richelle: >But I am defending my intelligence here. I did not study three languages (not >counting English) throughout high school and college on my way to Master's >degree in Educational Technology by being a complete idiot who can't read a >dictionary. Eloise: Of course you're not (says she, not wanting to seem guilty by association!) But if you don't know the grammar, the dictionary will be misleading. Richelle: >Besides, my emphasis was more on "Figg" that could come from "figulus" which >means Potter. A while back I had a wild notion that Arabella Figg was >related to Harry, not by blood, but as an inlaw, based on the meaning of >"figulus." I've changed my mind, as I think it reads better as an entire >statement, which I will not dare to repeat as I've been yelled at once >already. Eloise: Well, you know I won't agree with you about that. But I defend your right to be as fanciful in your derivations as you like. For all I know, you may be right. It rather depends on JKR's knowledge and intentions when it comes to Latin usage. It's not clear how good her Latin is. I really don't think we have to fight over these things. Some people enjoy abstruse (fanciful) detective work, some people enjoy LOONacy. I like a bit of both, myself. IMO, the problem with these things really comes when people start publishing these theories as facts, telling the world that there is an Arthurian character called Voldemortist, or that there is a legend about the Running Weasel. I think Richelle knows that her ideas are controversial and hasn't pretended otherwise or indeed, that they are any more than her opinion. Eloise Hoping and praying that she's got her declensions right. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eloiseherisson at aol.com Tue Sep 17 10:52:36 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 06:52:36 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "Voldemortist" Message-ID: <87.21305bde.2ab86374@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44091 Richard: > As a matter of pure pedantry (and completely OT, purely for information) > AFAIK (as ever, I'm open to being proved wrong) there is no "British" > throne. "Britain" is a geographical and topographical entity, not a > constitutional one. Eloise: Yes, I realise that. I was simplifying, which is dangerous, given that I was also making a pedantic point! I was simply indicating that it was before the Union (which would have been a better way of putting it) and that I wasn't using 'English' as a sloppy synonym for 'British'. Basically, I didn't want to stray too far OT in my explanation. ;-) But yes, I am guilty of inaccuracy and my LOON badge is looking a little tarnished. > <> > >Richard (Gul Plum): > > (as a matter of pedantry but of absolutely no significance other than to > myself, there is no space between the "l" and the "P") :-) > Eloise: Apologies! I had meant to check before I hit the 'send' button. I forgot, as Voldemort would say. Oh dear, that LOON badge *does* need attention! Richard: > Eloise: > >But... sources, such as they are, say that Vortimer was the eldest son of > >Vortigern and there *is* a legend about Vortigern meeting the young > Merlin, > >who fortells his defeat. > > <> > (Just for completeness, whilst Vortigern is generally accepted to have been > > a real historical character, Vortimer as we know him, like Arthur, is > considered to be a purely mythical construct based on a concatenation of > several real people; Merlin is generally considered to be based on two or > three real "wise men" or bards of the time.) Eloise: Agreed. I just didn't want to open that particular can of worms. Some people accept as fact what we see as myth or semi-historical. Richard: > > In any case, the relevance of this whole story to HP is that some people > have presented Vortimer as an etymology for "Voldemort" (at least I assume > it's Vortimer, as his is the only possibly vaguely similar-sounding name). < > > Eloise: My point, given that this whole Voldemortist thing is such utter piffle, was simply that whoever thought up the whole cock and bull idea could have been conflating or confusing the two characters, Vortimer and Vortigern. There's not that big a difference between 'mer' and 'gern', especially to someone unfamiliar with the names, who quickly cast their eye over some web pages and thinks they've come up with a brilliant idea. Or someone who has heard the story about Vortigern and Merlin and has later completely misremembered the name. *You* wouldn't confuse them, but as you point out there's a lot of er...fanciful and ill-informed etymology around. I bet somebody would! There is such a big leap between Vortimer and Voldermortist that I can't think there has been any real attempt at etymology, however incompetent. Or else someone is just having a joke. That wouldn't surprise me, either. > I like your Riddle Backstory! That way he retains the Slytherin blood, whilst still having a grandfather who is little more than a charlatan! Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Tue Sep 17 11:57:35 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 12:57:35 +0100 Subject: Name meanings: Arabella Figg Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20020917123145.0098c5e0@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 44092 (I sent this off at the time stated at the end, but for technical reasons, it never got through to Yahoo. I don't have the strength or will-power to re-edit, or indeed to check whether anyone else has dealt with the matters at hand) At 21:45 16/09/02 -0500, Richelle Votaw wrote: >Okay, perhaps I am a complete idiot, and perhaps incapable of reading a >Latin dictionary properly but here is what my dictionary tells me: > >bellatrix (which I don't like using, as the a is a long a sound, not short): >female warrior >bello: wage war >bellum: war; combat; fight >belli: at the wars So? The first, second and fourth are all derived from the third, and of themselves prove nothing, and add nothing. I am, however, extremely surprised that you chose to ignore the entry which (in my Latin dictionary, at least) immediately follows "bellum" and is not directly related thereto. More on that in a moment. >No apostrophes in sight. Of course not. I have no idea how much you know about inflected languages and I prefer not to presume so I won't expand on the subject much, but I feel the need to point out a few things which aren't obvious in English, but are of vital importance in inflected languages such as Latin: All dictionaries give noun headings in the nominative singular case. Dictionaries only include separate entries for female adjectives if they aren't immediately derived from their male counterparts; there is usually a female sub-entry under the male adjective, which is in the nominative singular case. Latin-English dictionaries give verb headings in the first person singular form. Most other modern languages' Latin dictionaries give verb entries in the infinitive form. All of that having been said, let's get back to the case in point. "bella" as a word in its own right does not have an entry in Latin-English dictionaries, because as a noun, the word is not a nominative singular. As an adjective, it is feminine. As for the noun, look up the specifics of the entry for "bellum" in your Latin-English dictionary and cross-reference it against any Latin grammar you may have (2nd declension neuter). In connection with "ara" (female nominative singular) it quite simply doesn't make sense. As for the adjective, look up "bellus" in your Latin-English dictionary, which should have a female sub-entry. I wrote my previous post without reference to any dictionary; I don't know what dictionary you have, so I can only make an educated guess at which English words it might offer as a translation. Extrapolate as necessary. This makes a lot more sense. I have always found it interesting that the Romans managed to use the same word root for "war" and "pretty"/"beautiful". I've never really looked into Latin semantics and internal etymologies but this one case has always intrigued me. The formulation "ara bella" therefore requires a lot more finesse and attention to the detail of Latin than that which can be gleaned from a browse through a Latin-English dictionary by someone who does not know the language... When attempting etymologies from this Latin stem, it is therefore imperative to consider any other factors. Such as grammatical formulation, for starters. Incidentally, if the "bell" word stem is always to mean "war", how would you explain words like belladonna (plant, aka deadly nightshade); Bella Pasta (restaurant chain); "Che Bella!" (a line which appears inter alia in all Italian gangster films, exclaimed by some lascivious bloke when a pretty girl enters a room - are they meant to be saying "this means war!"?) :-) >Besides, my emphasis was more on "Figg" that could come from "figulus" which >means Potter. A while back I had a wild notion that Arabella Figg was >related to Harry, not by blood, but as an inlaw, based on the meaning of >"figulus." I've changed my mind, as I think it reads better as an entire >statement, which I will not dare to repeat as I've been yelled at once >already. I wasn't yelling at you personally; it was a cry of utter despair and frustration because right now, incorrect etymologies appear to be coming at me from all directions and I am particularly touchy about the subject (my other posts tonight probably make that crystal clear). :-) I really do apologise for over-reacting. As for "figulus", you might notice that I didn't take issue with you. This is simply because I agree with you. You were welcome to draw conclusions, which I spell out as follows. For "figulus" to have any meaning in conjunction with "ara bella", it would need some grammatical transformation. "Ara bella figulorum" would mean "the potters' beautiful refuge" (or "... figuli" for a single potter). Strictly etymologically, there are too many syllables in the Latin, more of which would have come through for me to approve of this etymology wholeheartedly. However, a serious hint is there, and anyway, there is no real reason why JKR would spell it out so completely and linguistically correctly (besides, she's admitted before that her Latin isn't up to scratch). My sole issue with your proposed etymology (and meaning) is that there is no hint whatsoever of "war" in Arabella's name. Insisting otherwise regrettably has the effect not of sounding erudite, but of sounding like one doesn't know what one is talking about, thus perhaps undermining the whole rationale of the etymology, some elements of which have merits, as outlined above... -- GulPlum, AKA Richard, who is off to bed at long last (at 6.30am!) From niemuthervin at worldnet.att.net Mon Sep 16 22:48:49 2002 From: niemuthervin at worldnet.att.net (animagi_raven) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 22:48:49 -0000 Subject: Quirrell's Tenure (Again) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44094 Just about everyone in the house has said this but ~Phyllis said it last in post #444030: > "They [HRH] had never yet had a Defense Against the Dark Arts > teacher who had lasted more than three terms" (UK ed., p. 155). Do we all agree now that 3 terms = 1 year? Good. Starting from there... I would like to add a new proposal to this esteemed committee: Quirrell may have been young and just `on the staff.' Filling in for professors when they were sick. Sort of like a teaching assistant. Then he get the assignment to the DADA position because the previous professor *only lasted a year*. When he gets the appointment he decides that he is lacking first-hand experience. He goes on his trip, meets LV, and brings him home in a box (being ordered to under an Imperious?). Quirrell is too late to get the Stone and LV (a little more powerful by this time thanks to unicorn blood?) decides to crawl in with Quirrel. I like this argument because not only Quirrell but also the previous professor (or more?) have only lasted a year. This makes the position seem cursed by Harry's second year ? which is when they had trouble getting a professor. How would other candidates have thought that the position was cursed if previous professors had lasted more than a year? If we go back in the archives I am absolutely positive that someone else must have come up with this theory before. Any of the original members want to take credit for this or nominate someone? Animagi_Raven who promises to go light on the parentheses next post. From jenw118 at HotPOP.com Tue Sep 17 01:35:08 2002 From: jenw118 at HotPOP.com (Jennifer R. Wilson) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 20:35:08 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OoP Prediction Derby (from the archives) In-Reply-To: <019701c25de2$71b255a0$059ccdd1@istu757> Message-ID: <000501c25dea$769609b0$7fc5fbd8@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 44095 Oh wow, this looks like fun! I must answer these questions! > > > 1. What new magical place will we visit? Sooner or later, we need to find out where Lily and James are buried, I really hope it is in this book. I have to agree with Richelle, a trip to Godric's Hollow would be great as well, if only to give us the significance between that and Godric Gryffindor. > > > 2. Are any of the Dursleys wizards? Who? Maybe Aunt Petunia? That could prove some interesting adventures, I suppose. Does magical power occur late in life? > > > 3. Identify the next DADA teacher. Arabella Figg. There will be a female teacher next, and she seems the most logical answer, also she is part of the old crowd, isn't she? > > > 4. Which "beloved" character(s) will die? Any other deaths, > and if so, who? I think the first one will be Hagrid, as well. Maybe one of his famed creatures turns on him? I think maybe another student, but no one major. > > > 5. Of Lupin, Sirius, Krum, Fleur, Lockhart, Winky, Dobby, Moody, > > > Bagman, Madam Maxime, which characters will have speaking lines in OK Lupin, Sirius, Lockhart-he is nearly normal again, and arrogant as usual too! Dobby, Winky, and maybe Madame Maxime. > > > 6. At the end of OoP, will Dumbledore be the headmaster? Most definitely YES! > > > 7. At the end of OoP, will Fudge be the Minister of Magic? No. I think Voldemort will have someone on his side, like perhaps Luscius Malfoy blackmail himself into the position, so that the Ministry position will be corrupt, and not as able to block Voldemort. > > > 8. At the end of OoP, will Neville be the same forgetful boy, or > > > will he have changed in some way? Good question. I would say that he will stay the same, and we will gain little info on him until the sixth book. > > > 9. At the end of OoP, will Sirius have cleared his name? I would love for that to happen, but I doubt that will until at the earliest the sixth book. > > > 10. Will Harry and Voldemort have a confrontation? I believe Harry will have a confrontation with Pettigrew, but not Voldemort this time. > > > 11. Of the following magical things, which will a character use > or confront: pensieve, veritaserum, boggart, Marauder's Map, > whomping willow, polyjuice potion, nifflers, portkeys, rememberall, floo > > > powder, time turner, sneakoscope, foe glass, secrecy sensor, > knight bus. I think the items that will be used will be a time turner, polyjuice potion, the whomping willow, veritaserum and a pensieve again. > > > 12. Will there be Quiddich at Hogwarts? Definitely, Harry needs the fun of Quidditch to keep his mind off of Voldemort for a little bit. > > > If so, who will be the Gryffindor Keeper? Maybe Ron? > > > Gryffindor Captain? Harry, because he gets nearly every honor, doesn't he? > > > 13. Will anyone else turn out to be an animagus? Who? Do we know for sure that Crookshanks isn't an animagus? I dunno, maybe Hedwig? > > > 14. Who is Mundungus Fletcher? Someone who is from the old crowd. > > > 15. Will Wormtail use his silver hand in an important way? Yes, in OoP he will use his silver hand. Maybe it has a power we haven't yet heard about. That was a fun little questionnaire! Thanks for coming up with it! Jennifer [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eloiseherisson at aol.com Tue Sep 17 12:12:39 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 08:12:39 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Name meanings: Hagrid Message-ID: <158.1430d667.2ab87637@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44096 Richard (quoting, I hasten to add!): > "Hagrid: Name and tale comes from greek myth. The ancient Hagrid from the > myth was the god of Jewels. This god was said to be the kindest of the > gods, but Hades framed him for the death of Piraeus's (the killer of > Medusa) son. Hagrid was banished from Olympus but Zues allowed him to stay > as the watcher of the animals. " > > Where did they get "Piraeus" from? As far as I'm aware (and I think I know > my Greek mythology fairly well), Medusa was killed by Perseus. It's his > main claim to fame. Piraeus, I was always taught, is/was the main port in > Athens Well, you can't get much more Greek-sounding than Rubeus Hagrid, can you? ;-) I think Piraeus is simply a typo or ignorant confusion of Perseus and Piraeus. There are a lot of sites which peddle this particular piece of rubbish, including ones which rightly attribute Medusa's killing to Perseus. It just shows you. It's like Chinese whispers. I think the one you quote may have been copied from the Angelfire site, which says Perseus, but has the same mis-spelling of Zeus. Incidentally, this one (amongst others) "explains" that 'Hagrid' means 'giant' and 'Rubeus' means 'jewels'......And there was me, thinking Rubeus had to do with his ruddy complexion (and not a little alcohol!). That'll teach me to try to find Latin derivations for things! ;-) Have a cup of tea, Richard! It's less messy than slashing your wrists! But...According to some sources, Hades himself was the god of all the jewels of the world, (logically as jewels come from under the ground). (Alternative name Pluto; Ploutos = wealth) I wonder, just *wonder* if someone's seen two names which start 'Ha..' both of whom happen to have three-headed dogs and keys as attributes and if that has got woven into the tangled web, associating Hagrid with the god of jewels. But how that got turned into Hades getting him ousted from Olympus is anybody's guess. Eloise Off for some tea, herself! , [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Tue Sep 17 12:45:07 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 13:45:07 +0100 Subject: Name meanings: Arabella Figg In-Reply-To: <182.e84a174.2ab860e4@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20020917130432.009a5eb0@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 44097 At 06:41 17/09/02 -0400, eloise wrote: >Eloise, hearing a commotion from the classroom she is passing, finds Richard >(whose nerves I am becoming quite concerned about) bouncing a ferret on the >floor. Brandishing her wand and transforming the ferret back into an >indignant Richelle, she demands an explanation: [That's it. I'm not really >TBAYing, I just couldn't resist the image!] Oh gawd. Was my outburst really so strong that it brought that image to you? I'm good to animals, me. I'd never bounce a ferret around the room! (I do, however, have a bean-bag mouse on my desk for that purpose...) :-) >Sorry, Richard. I'm confused. I've read the above passage several times, >mindful of the last time I jumped in on a thread only to find I'd misread a >sentence (I think it was Richelle's as it happens). > >The accusative case indicates that the noun in question is the *direct >object* of a verb. It is the *genitive* case which indicates possession. >In the case of bellum which, if memory serves, is second declension neuter, >the genitive plural ("wars' ") would be bellorum, wouldn't it? Correct. >'Bella' could be either nominative, vocative or accusative plural. But not >genitive. If it is accusative, we cannot translate it with an apostrophe... >Can we? I'm in no fit state to quote grammatical rules (after two hours' sleep last night, I'm desperately dragging up stuff I learned over 20 years ago!), but I *did* say that the formulation was completely meaningless. :-) However, semantically there is a connection between the accusative and genitive cases, and non-fluent users of inflected languages often confuse the two when translating. The accusative is very "strong" semantically and can be used for literary effect. I was attempting to drag *some* kind of meaning from Richelle's musings, and a fake-genitive was the only way the spirit of Latin would have gone. Her translation required "bella" to be dative (?), a jump which is quite simply outside the realms of possibility. >Be fair to Richelle. She does realise that her etymologies are considered >fanciful by Latinists (you do, don't you?) - hence banging her head on her >desk. Yes, I'm aware she accepts they might be fanciful. I'm trying to explain why this one simply doesn't hold water; the worst thing about this one (and Richelle's far from the only person to propose it) is that it holds a grain of plausibility, except in a different direction. >In RL, names frequently change forms, hence one of the difficulties in >deriving them. OTOH, if JKR wanted to use Arabella as a Latin word to convey >something, then I think she would *probably* use the obvious meaning. Especially when the obvious meaning makes a great deal of sense in the context of the Potterverse as we know it. :-) >I really don't think we have to fight over these things. Some people enjoy >abstruse (fanciful) detective work, some people enjoy LOONacy. I like a bit >of both, myself. I agree with you entirely, and I wasn't fighting. :-) My brain (and personality) is quite "legalistic" - I believe in rules and the need for them, but not for purposes of being autocratic, but because they make life easier when we all operate within the same framework (i.e. "rules are there to be broken when we appreciate just why the rules are there in the first place"). Whilst I'm as open as others to flights of fancy, they must have some kind of baseline from which to take off (sorry for mixing my metaphors). My objection to some of the more fanciful HP etymologies is that they display a major lack of understanding of the underlying facts. In effect, they attempt to take what we know of certain character or place names and stretch the origins to make them fit. Sometimes stretching is unnecessary, but a little knowledge of the underlying rules (in this case, Latin) sends us in one (plausible) direction, whilst ignorance of those rules sends us in another, IMO implausible one. (did that make sense?) -- GulPlum AKA Richard, off for 40 winks :-) From rlundgren at gov.mb.ca Tue Sep 17 14:15:12 2002 From: rlundgren at gov.mb.ca (freya122000) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 14:15:12 -0000 Subject: Hagrid Flying and his powers? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44098 Happy Tuesday everyone. Don't know if anyone else has brought this up, if they have sorry to run it up the flag pole again. If house elves have all this magic power it would stand to reason other creatures would as well. Could Hagrid have powers other then that of a wizard. He is half giant. It would explain his power and closeness with animals. His giant power would be very elemental. And along the same track, would he even need a wand? Because he is half giant and half wizard I think he must be very powerful, and I don't belive Dumbledore would leave someone like that untrained. He would be a danger to himself and others if his power was out of control. Just thought I'd throw that out there. Freya From MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Sep 17 13:43:25 2002 From: MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM (mitchbailey82) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 13:43:25 -0000 Subject: OoP Prediction Derby (from the archives) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44099 ok here we go! > 1. What new magical place will we visit? MOM? some other place we haven't heard about yet? Lupins house? > 2. Are any of the Dursleys wizards? Who? I think that Harrys great grandmother/father or great aunt/uncle might have been a wizard/ squib. > 3. Identify the next DADA teacher. Arabella Figg. > 4. Which "beloved" character(s) will die? Any other deaths, > and if so, who? I'm afraid its going be Hagrid :-( > 5. Of Lupin, Sirius, Krum, Fleur, Lockhart, Winky, Dobby, Moody, > Bagman, Madam Maxime, which characters will have speaking lines in Lupin, Sirius, Dobby, Fleur. Krum too IF he's still with Hermione > 6. At the end of OoP, will Dumbledore be the headmaster? Got a bad feeling that Fudge will find a way to make him take early retirement or something like that... > 7. At the end of OoP, will Fudge be the Minister of Magic? I'm afraid he will be ( maybe under Voldemort's control maybe not) > 8. At the end of OoP, will Neville be the same forgetful boy, or > will he have changed in some way? All the characters are changing as they grow up. I think Neville will as well. > 9. At the end of OoP, will Sirius have cleared his name? No > 10. Will Harry and Voldemort have a confrontation? Not this time but probably in the 6th and 7th bokks. > 11. Of the following magical things, which will a character use > or confront: pensieve, veritaserum, boggart, Marauder's Map, > whomping willow, polyjuice potion, nifflers, portkeys, rememberall, > floo powder, time turner, sneakoscope, foe glass, secrecy sensor, > knight bus. Whomping willow, veritaserum (I'm sure Snapes got a few tricks up his sleeve regarding this :-)), Marauders Map. NOT polyjuice (I think that ones been used enough - maybee I'm wrong) > 12. Will there be Quiddich at Hogwarts? Yes > If so, who will be the Gryffindor Keeper? Ginny - she'll prove she's just as good a Quiddich as her brothers ! > Gryffindor Captain? One of the current Chasers? Maybe Angenlina. Don't think Harry will ...yet (maybe book6), don't think he'll want (he plays quidditch because he enjoys it not for the attention, if anything the only reason that he seems to be able to play is because he can forget that poeple are watching him) it, maybe he wont feel up to it, he underestimates himself all the time (eg. says he doesn't have any strengths to Moody GOF, feels that he'll be bottom of the class in PS) he is not that sure of himself although his self doubt has got slightly less over the last 5 books. > 13. Will anyone else turn out to be an animagus? Who? Dumbledore > 14. Who is Mundungus Fletcher? Someone who's going to play a major role. > 15. Will Wormtail use his silver hand in an important way? Yes though maybe not in Oop Thats it ! Michelle From naama2486 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 17 14:29:20 2002 From: naama2486 at yahoo.com (naama2486) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 14:29:20 -0000 Subject: How much do the Dursleys know? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44100 Just adding a thought [as I always do ;-)] It's interesting how we tend to forget that not only do the Dursleys *know* (including Dudley), we were there to read it with them. (as always, I *don't* have the books with me so I can't quote it) I'm talking about the scene in the hut-on-the-rock. Hagrid tells Harry all about Voldemort and his parents' death, and the Dursleys heard it as well. The thing is, I think they either don't believe it or don't think it will affect *them*. I say so because, when Hagrid tells about the murder of the Potters, Vernon replies "bunch of old tush" (or something like that), which implies that he knew about it and didn't care much. He wouldn't have cared at all if it were'nt for the fact that the result was him ending up raising the little brat... ;-) Naama the New From gandharvika at hotmail.com Tue Sep 17 15:12:55 2002 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 15:12:55 +0000 Subject: [HP4Grownups]Shrieking Shack(FILK) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44101 It's retro night at the Leaky Cauldron with an '80s dance revival...no cover charge! ******************************************************* Shrieking Shack (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _The Love Shack_ by the B52s) Important Note: In order to fully appreciate this filk it is *imperative* that you sing along with the original otherwise all the repetitious lines loose it's groove. Heres a MIDI link : http://www.geocities.com/runswithscissors85/Midis.html And heres a RealAudio (just scroll down) http://www.geocities.com/michellesrockinatoz/RealAudio.html (Thanks for the links Coriolan, you're a peach!) Lupin and Back-up Vocal: When you go into the village there's a scary little place, there in Hogsmede called the Shrieking Shack. Shrieking Shack, yeah Once every month I'm goin' to the Willow, goin' to the shack hide-a-way. Heading for the shack hide-a-way, shack hide-a-way, shack hide-a-way, shack hide-a-way I'm a werewolf and every full moon I'm headin' on down to the Shrieking Shack. I got me three friends, Peter, Potter and Black. To help me, they each became Animagis This old shack is the very same place where I would go each full moon. Shrieking Shack, baby Shrieking Shack, bay-bee Shrieking Shack, baby That shack, Shrieking Shack baby. Way back. Shack, baby, that's where I'm at. Ooooo, werewolf, that's what I am. I howl, Wooooo...stay away fools 'cause wolves rule at the Shrieking Shack! Well, it's a set way back in the town of Hogsmeade. Before the moon rises I gotta get back. Breakin' up the furniture Bitin' my own body Howlin' and a snarlin' Scarin' the whole village This old shack is the very same place where I would go each full moon. Shrieking Shack, baby. Shrieking Shack, bay-bee. Shrieking Shack, that's where I'm at! Werewolf, that's what I am. Howlin' and a-barkin'. Scaring the whole village 'cause the noise that I'm a-makin'. The whole town stays far away when they hear me again and again and again. My three friends they help me. They are Animagis, I say they hang out with me they help me to calm down. My three friends they help me. They are Animagis, I say Shrieking little Shack. Shrieking little Shack I turn into a werewolf with a snout and a tail and I'm starting to wail! I got me three friends, Peter Potter and Black. To help me, they each became Animagis This old shack is the very same place where I go each full moon. Shrieking Shack, baby Shrieking Shack, bay-bee Shrieking Shack, baby Shrieking Shack Shrieking Shack, baby Shrieking Shack Ooooo werewolf, that's what I am Howl, howl, howl at the moon, Lupin. You can find him in there, Severus Howl, howl, howl at the moon, Lupin. James follows through. Werewolf! at the door, baby! Potter! saves Snape's life! Werewolf! almost kills him! Life debt! The Prank! Sirius Black...busted. Shrieking Shack, baby Shrieking Shack Shrieking Shack, baby Shrieking Shack Shrieking Shack, baby Shrieking Shack Werewolf, that's what I am. -Gail B. I *like* '80s dance music! _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 17 15:24:44 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 15:24:44 -0000 Subject: Why would death eaters want a Mudblood as their leader? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44102 pickle_jimmy asked: > So, how did a half-cast (mudblood) wizard from poor (orphanage) > beginnings become the head of a group that loathe poor half-cast > wizards? Now me: I think the following exchange from a BBC interview with JKR helps address some of your question: Q: Book Four explores several themes - some we've seen before like prejudice in Chamber of Secrets. We see more of that with foreign students and people with different parentage. Is that something you've been wanting to explore? JKR: From the beginning of Philosopher's Stone, prejudice is a very strong theme. It is plausible that Harry enters the world wide-eyed: everything will be wonderful and it's the sort of place where injustices don't happen. Then he finds out that it does happen and it's a shock to him. He finds out that he is a half-blood: to a wizard like Lucius Malfoy, he will never be a true wizard, because his mother was of Muggle parentage. It's a very important theme. Q: Voldemort's a half-blood too... JKR: Like Hitler! See! I think it's the case that the biggest bully takes their own defects and they put them on someone else, and they try to destroy them. And that's what he [Voldemort] does. That was very conscious - I wanted to create a villain where you could understand the workings of his mind, not just have a 2-D baddie, dressed up in black, and I wanted to explore that and see where that came from. Harry in Book Four is starting to come to terms with what makes a person turn that way. Because they took wrong choices and he [Voldemort] took wrong choices from an early age. Here's the link to the entire interview: http://www.geocities.com/aberforths_goat/Fall_2000_BBC_Newsround.htm Do we know for sure that all of the DEs are purebloods? Even if we assume that they all are, I don't think they would dare insult or attack a non-pureblood who is more powerful than they are. And Voldemort is the most powerful of all of them. IMO, the DEs follow Voldemort even though he's a half-blood because they believe in his goals and ideals, and because he's able to satisfy an unmet need (which varies by the DE, which I posted my theories on recently). ~Phyllis From siriuskase at earthlink.net Tue Sep 17 15:30:56 2002 From: siriuskase at earthlink.net (siriuskase) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 15:30:56 -0000 Subject: Quirrell's Tenure (Again) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44103 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "animagi_raven" wrote: > I would like to add a new proposal to this esteemed committee: > Quirrell may have been young and just `on the staff.' Filling in for > professors when they were sick. Sort of like a teaching assistant. > Then he get the assignment to the DADA position because the previous > professor *only lasted a year*. When he gets the appointment he > decides that he is lacking first-hand experience. He goes on his > trip, meets LV, and brings him home in a box (being ordered to under > an Imperious?). Quirrell is too late to get the Stone and LV (a > little more powerful by this time thanks to unicorn blood?) decides > to crawl in with Quirrel. > > I like this argument because not only Quirrell but also the previous > professor (or more?) have only lasted a year. This makes the > position seem cursed by Harry's second year ? which is when they had > trouble getting a professor. How would other candidates have thought > that the position was cursed if previous professors had lasted more > than a year? > > Animagi_Raven who promises to go light on the parentheses next post. What you have posted is closest to what I believe, I think that prior to Harry's first year, Quirrel was at Hogwarts but not in the role of DADA instructor. So Snape misses out on the DADA appointment a minimum of 4 times. HP Year 4 to Moody, HPY3 to Lupin, HPY2 to ?, HPY1 to Quirrel (No HP0, this is consistent with other chronological schemes) During HPY-1, Q was teaching something, maybe DADA, so that his (faked) nervousness could be noticed. HPY-2 would be the year off for advanced studies, and then HPY-3 would have Quirrel at Hogwarts. I like the idea of the DADA curse coinciding so neatly with Harry's time at Hogwarts because it is evidence that Harry might be the cause of this. It goes well with the idea that a trouble attracter can easily be mistaken for a trouble maker. Sirius Kase From fyredriftwood at yahoo.com Tue Sep 17 15:55:20 2002 From: fyredriftwood at yahoo.com (Fyre Wood) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 15:55:20 -0000 Subject: New Question and Answer thing Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44104 Okay, I've read a few posts asking for a new question and answer thing, so here we go =) 1.Do you think we'll ever go inside an Arithmacy class or perhaps any other classes we have yet to see? 2. Do any of the pets in Harry Potter seem like they're not *really* pets. 3. Name you favorite new organization with letters (Ie: N.I.N.E= Neville is not Evil) and try to come up with your own. 4. Will Draco ever stop being oh so evil? 5. Predictions on the final chapter of book 7? 6. Ron and Hermione--Will they hook up? 7. What's the deal with Wizard money? Does it collect interest? Why is it so darn big and heavy? Why not paper money instead of coins? 8. If you could play any Quidditch possition, what would it be? Why? Which team? 9. Name a character who is going to have the most change in his/her characterization between books 5-7, and explain what changes might happen. 10. What new flavors of Bertie Bott's beans would you like to eat? ______________ I'll answer this later.. it's more of a random thing. Perhaps someone will *actually* reply to a post I make without slamming me for liking Draco Malfoy and saying that Neville is infact NOT evil. =) --Fyre Wood, who now heads off to her English class...Gosh I still hate college. Too much work, not enough play! From gandharvika at hotmail.com Tue Sep 17 16:52:49 2002 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 16:52:49 +0000 Subject: [HP4Grownups]Photograph(FILK) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44105 Photograph (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Photograph_ by Def Leppard) Colin Creevey: Hey! Wow, what luck! I can't believe! I'm a first year, Colin Creevey Harry Potter! It's far out! You're the one I've heard about I heard about you from my friends To my father I want to send A picture of your lightning scar My hero, gee! And there you are Oh, someone told me if I developed this film Oh, oh, the pictures will move Photograph, I just want one Photograph, Look this way, huh? Photograph, all I want is a photograph But that's not enough! I'm your big fan, sit with us First year students, we'll discuss All about you and your deeds Is there something that you need? If I didn't know Harry I'd say he was avoiding me We pass each other in the halls "Hiya Harry!" I always call Oh, someone told me if I develop this film Oh, oh, the pictures will move Photograph, one with Lockhart Photograph, playing Quidditch Photograph, Harry, I just want a photograph Maybe you can sign it? It really is amazing! -Gail B. who had a very creative weekend, filk-wise _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Tue Sep 17 17:00:26 2002 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 17:00:26 -0000 Subject: Name meanings: Hagrid In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20020917025923.00a5b480@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44106 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., GulPlum wrote: > "Hagrid: Name and tale comes from greek myth. The ancient Hagrid from the > myth was the god of Jewels. This god was said to be the kindest of the > gods, but Hades framed him for the death of Piraeus's (the killer of > Medusa) son. Hagrid was banished from Olympus but Zues allowed him to stay > as the watcher of the animals. " > > Now, I admit that I'd never heard of a "Hagrid" in Greek mythology, so I > was prepared to assume that I might not know as much as I thought. However, > no online source about Greek mythology > (http://www.pantheon.org/areas/mythology/europe/greek/articles.html seems > like a good place to start) seems to have heard of this character. > > I've also been through several books on the subject, and none of them have > heard of Hades "framing" anyone even vaguely related to Perseus. > > Before I go to town on the folks at MuggleNet, does anyone here know > anything about this? I read that on several HP sites. Like you I thought I was missing something in spite of having read numerous Greek mythology books (Hamilton, Bullfinch, etc.) as a child. I even looked it up in a "who's who" book of mythological characters. The result: nothing. I assume this is "hagrid" name information is make believe. Quite by accident, I DID find something interesting in Thomas Hardy's novel, _Mayor of Casterbridge_. The paragraph mentions "country" (obsolete) expressions and their more dignified equivalents in late 18th century England. "Dumbledores", according to Hardy, are "humblebees" (now more commonly known as "bumblebees"). "Hagrid" was gastrointestinal upset, ie, indigestion. (In light of Hagrid's culinary skills, rock-hard rock cakes and a talon in beef casserole, it makes some sense.) Between Thomas Hardy and these HP websites, I'd believe Hardy.;-) Milz From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 17 17:31:51 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 17:31:51 -0000 Subject: Question: OoP Predictions and Death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44107 Steve (bboy_mn) wrote: > JKRowling has said there will be more deaths coming, but I don't > think she necessarily said they would be in this next book. > That certainly doesn't invalidate speculation on, if some one will > die in OoP, and who that someone might be. It was just a thought > that occurred to me. > > Can anyone confirm that? Was it a general statement, or was she > actually talking about OoP? Now me: I feel like the resident HPfGU researcher today! Here are three quotes I found with their links (all from the Aberforths Goat site): http://books.guardian.co.uk/Print/0,3858,4326559,00.html "The billionaire author reveals that she has already decided the fate of all the major characters, and hints that some could be killed off. The programme, to go out tonight on BBC1, shows Rowling holding the final chapter of the series to the camera and saying 'this is it, and I'm not opening it for obvious reasons.' Describing the chapter, she says, 'this really wraps everything, it's the epilogue and I basically say what happens to everyone after they leave school, those who survive - because there are deaths, more deaths coming...There's at least one death that's going to be horrible to write.'" http://home.scottsburg.com/trinkle/rowlinginterview.htm "She intimated that as the series progresses the mood may darken. The death of one character in the fourth book, she said, is 'the beginning of the deaths.'" http://www.geocities.com/aberforths_goat/June_2000_Ann_Treneman_The_ Times.htm "Yes, this is the book in which the deaths start. I always planned it this way." So, no direct reference to deaths in Book 5. But she does say that the deaths *start* in Book 4, which implies that subsequent books will have deaths in them, but there's no specificity about which books they will be. ~Phyllis From Ali at zymurgy.org Tue Sep 17 18:20:38 2002 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (alhewison) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 18:20:38 -0000 Subject: Name meanings: Arabella Figg In-Reply-To: <182.e84a174.2ab860e4@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44108 I simply cannot resist the Latin arguments. Linquist I am not, but Classicist I was - well up to A'Level anyway. I can't do anything but concur with Eloise's Latin lesson. It brought back memories - I can still vividly *see* tables of Latin nouns! Anyhow, I thought I would retry my Arabella Figg name meaning, as I simply cannot see "Figg" coming from "figulus. :- To follow on from the discussion of the meaning of Arabella: " Of Scottish origin and uncertain etymology. It probably represents an alteration of An(n)abella" Annabel: "...probably an altered form of Amabel, an obsolete French name derived from Latin amabilis "lovable" Quotes are from Oxford University Press book of "Babies Names". I think this just confirms what Eloise has already said. The dictionary goes on to state that the Latinised form "Annabella are "influenced by Latin bella beautiful" Eloise said (a little while ago - sorry can't remember the post number):- In any case, as I have pointed out, Arabella already has a perfectly good Latin derivation, meaning amiable (which in itself could be used to back up the Sirius/Arabella theory, or to back up the 'Mrs Figg is really a lovely young witch who's polyjuiced/aged herself into an old woman' theory). It just seems a bit much to then go and work out a secondary derivation. I say: Well, here is a back up to the polyjuiced/ aged potion Arabella theory:- There is apparently an English word "fig" meaning dress. To "fig out" is to dress up. This word is a variation of an obsolete word "feague" which comes from German, which if I understand my Concise Oxford dictionary correctly means "Fake". If JKR has indeed deliberately chosen Mrs Figg's name, then this is (IMHO) very strong evidence towards the Arabella "in muffty" theory. Ali Who apologises for rehashing an old theory, but I haven't given up on it (yet!) From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Tue Sep 17 17:52:14 2002 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 17:52:14 -0000 Subject: Student list question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44109 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "nyarth_meow" wrote: > > JKR in a BBC documentary "Harry Potter and me" showed this list to > the camera briefly. She said it showed every student in Harry's > year, what house they were in, and whether they were muggle-born, > wizard-born or half-blood. She said it was important for allegiences > in the later books. > So i suppose the N, D, (D) refers to their breeding, but I can't see > how. We know Justin and Hermione are muggle-born, they both have an > [N]. The star of David and the circled star of David must be hal- > blood and full-blood, but I don't know which is which. We know that Seamus is a halfblood and he has a circled star, so if you are right, the circle star is the symbol for a halfblood. > > Interestingly, whichever symbol means half-blood, there's half- bloods > in Slytherin (look at Bulstrode and Goyle - different symbols). > I've always wondered whether or not muggle-borns get sorted into > Slyth - some people assume they aren't. That means Goyle is the halfblood. But so was Voldemort himself. I suppose Slytherin makes a difference between muggle born and half blood. Hickengruendler From rlundgren at gov.mb.ca Tue Sep 17 18:18:55 2002 From: rlundgren at gov.mb.ca (freya122000) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 18:18:55 -0000 Subject: Snape's "mind set?" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44110 This maybe off base, but what the heck. This is the way I see one of my most favorite creatures (I mean that in the nicest way.). I don't belive Snape hates Harry at all. He may dislike him, but not hate him. I belive that everything Snape does, he does with a purpose. He knows the role Harry must play in the battle to come and he knows that Harry has come to this world untrained. It is Snape's "job" to help get him as ready as they can, as fast as they can. I find he does a great deal to help Harry learn, even if it does seem harsh at times. I also belive Snape does as he is ordered to do from above. As to his feelings for James again I don't feel hate, envy, dislike yes, but not hate. However the one person Snape does hate (to the point of crazy making) is Black (oh baby). The hate between these two is visable, you can touch it and it is very mutual. There is a very interesting story here, I only hope we get to find out what it is. It could be school stuff or love stuff, but IMO it is something deeper, older. Now granted Black did try to kill him, no dispute. But that is not really bullying (unless you are nuts, which I don't think Black is), it is however pure hate. Why? Snape has never been irrational with anyone, but Black. He would have given Black and Lupin over to the dementors without question. I will say one thing for Black, all things considered he could have and should have left Snape behind but he did not. I love finely layered characters. Freya From jodel at aol.com Tue Sep 17 20:03:58 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 16:03:58 EDT Subject: Quirrell's Tenure (Again)/Stone+Chamber connections Message-ID: <123.16ba00a4.2ab8e4ae@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44111 Elouise writes; >>There's another interesting thing about what Hagrid says: he was all right while he was *studying out of books*, but then he went off for a year to get practical experience. You could read this to mean that he went staight from studying, to practical research (perhaps in preparation for his appointment at Hogwarts?) to his first teaching job. But we're still left with the 'frightened of the students' problem and the fact that Percy recognises Quirrell.<< Unless you read it that Quirrell is even younger than we've suspected and that Percy (already a 5th year) remembers Quirrel from when Quirrell was a student. From all we have deffinitely been told about Quirrell, he would have been just the sort of academic high achiever that Percy might have admired. Yet another suggestion; Quirrell's DADA position may have been aranged quite a while in advance. Up to a year's worth. Suppose for a minute that the DADA teacher before Quirrell had already announced his intention to retire in a year or two. (We've heard nothing about the position being jinxed at any point before Harry and Co. showed up, after all.) Top DADA student Quirrell was one of the people aware of this. In fact, the old teacher regarded young Quirrell as a protege, may have even been grooming him as his replacement. The concensus is that Quirrell might make a fine DADA teacher, but needs practical experience in the field. Or, conversely, Quirrell finishes Hogwarts, does a year of scholarly research on the subject, keeps in contact with his old professor who tells him that he intends to retire in a year or so, and suggests applying for the position, says that he will put in a word for him and suggests taking a year to get some practical experience. In either case Quirrell goes off and performs quite well in the field. So well that he is distinctly over-confident when he gets to Albania and decides to investigate the tales of a forested area where, over the past decade, there have been reports of animals, particularly snakes, which behave in an omniously unnatural manner. The vampires and the hag are a cover story, and Voldemort didn't let Quirrell get anywhere near his old instructor, who would probably have tried to do something about the problem. And, no, Voldemort apparantly did not take physical possession of Quirrell before the attempt on Gringotts. Wizards evidently are not like beasts. It seems to be possible to take psychic control them without establishing physical possession. Voldemort avoided taking physical possession for as long as he could because he knew from experience that it burned out the host. However the Gringotts affair tipped the scales. (Quirrel may have made an attempt to break contact once inside the heavily warded tunnel complex.) I've half a conviction that at some point late in the school year, when the mutual body was failing and had to be kept alive by applications of unicorn blood Quirrelmort owled Lucius Malfoy and told him to deploy the Riddle diary. Once he had the Stone, if the diary revenant could be released from the book, Quirrel and his patched-together body could be dispensed with in favor of a willing host body into which he would probably be able to meld completely with the original owner. In fact, I suspect that owling Lucius was his last act before entering the labrynth of challenges. He knew the place was a trap, and while he might not have known exactly how it was set, he strongly suspected that he was unlikely to be able to get the Stone out of the labrynth without alerting Dumbledore. Which means that he knew there was a good chance that he wasn't going to be able to brazen it out afterwards, and was going to have to make a break for it. Which means that he knew he wasn't going to have the time to kill Harry Potter. This year. So he told Lucius to give Potter the Riddle diary. And THAT is what Dobby heard Lucius talking about. (To Narcissia? Telling her he had to make a trip Gringotts, did she need anything out of storage?) It was *Harry Potter* who was supposed to have openened that Chamber, set the basilisk on the school and traded his life for that of the diary's revenant. I mean, really. Would Dobby have gone gibbering in terror to *Harry Potter* over a threat to the life of Ginny Weasley? Does he even know Ginny Weasley? And we sat and watched it go awry before our very eyes when Muggle-loving Arthur Weasley, instead of going for his wand when taunted -- like any self-respecting wizard -- threw a punch instead, dragged Lucius into a fistfight in public (in a bookstore which was packed for a media event, just to add insult to injury) and so enraged him that he planted the diary on Arthur's daughter (and the aple of his eye, I suspect) instead. And that may have something to do with that ambiguous "Lucius, my slippery friend" remark in Goblet, and the fact that Voldemort is so conspicuosly is "not speaking" about Lucius's part in setting up the Chamber of Secrets debacle, resulting in the loss of Salizar's basilisk. (For the record, I do NOT believe that Voldemort is in the habit of casually Crucioing just ANY of his followers. There are some that he knows are much too valuable to give any cause to reconsider their alliance. But he will certainly torture OTHER of their fellows in their presence as a reminder that he COULD. Draco has a point. Lucius Malfoy is EVERY bit as important as he thinks he is.) Chamber and Stone are not two separate adventures, they are two parts of a single campaign to restore Voldemort. -JOdel From uncmark at yahoo.com Tue Sep 17 20:10:40 2002 From: uncmark at yahoo.com (Mark D.) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 20:10:40 -0000 Subject: School Year Length Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44112 Help me out with a question for my fanfic. Whayt is the school year length at Hogwarts (supposedly based on English school years)? The timelines at the Harry Lexicon have the Hogwart's Express always leaving on Sept. 1 no matter what day of the week (despite assigning the calendars of 1991 - 95 to the first four books) and ending either the last week of June, or in the case of GoF as late as the first week in July. Do English schools stay in session that long? It would mean a summer holiday of barely 2 months! Uncmark From Ali at zymurgy.org Tue Sep 17 20:44:39 2002 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (alhewison) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 20:44:39 -0000 Subject: School Year Length In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44113 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mark D." wrote: Help me out with a question for my fanfic. Whayt is the school year length at Hogwarts (supposedly based on English school years)? The timelines at the Harry Lexicon have the Hogwart's Express always leaving on Sept. 1 no matter what day of the week (despite assigning > the calendars of 1991 - 95 to the first four books) and ending either the last week of June, or in the case of GoF as late as the first week in July. Do English schools stay in session that long? It would mean a summer holiday of barely 2 months! I say:- The standard length of English school summer holidays is actually only 6 weeks. Boarding schools and private schools tend to have longer holidays, making Hogwarts in keeping with these. Normal day schools would also have 3 half term breaks of a week each, which explains why boarding schools often have longer summer holidays (and Christmas and Easter breaks, as they do not have these breaks. The fact that the Hogwarts' year ends at the end of June/ early July is actually earlier than most schools break up. In reality English schools with holidays of around 8 weeks would begin the Autumn term somewhat later in September. Scottish schools on the otherhand tend to start their Autumn term slightly earlier. Ali Ali From crussell at arkansas.net Tue Sep 17 20:48:56 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 20:48:56 -0000 Subject: Snape's "mind set?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44114 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "freya122000" wrote: > I also belive Snape does as he is ordered to do from above. > As to his feelings for James again I don't feel hate, envy, dislike > yes, but not hate. However the one person Snape does hate (to the > point of crazy making) is Black (oh baby). The hate between these > two is visable, you can touch it and it is very mutual. I love finely layered characters. > Freya I love finely layered characters too-and Snape has so many layers-so too, does Sirius. When these two powerhouse personalities collide- watch out!! There will be fireworks. In book 4, they shook hands at Dumbledore's request-barely. It will be very interesting to see what happens between these two characters in later books -and IMO, another confrontation is bound to occur. I too have come to believe that Snape is acting under orders-but whose? Dumbledore? Voldemort? or perhaps both? IMO, Snape is definitely walking a fine line. bugaloo37-who believes that multi-layered characters are what makes a novel memorable From i_am_erasmas at yahoo.ca Tue Sep 17 21:42:55 2002 From: i_am_erasmas at yahoo.ca (i_am_erasmas) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 21:42:55 -0000 Subject: Snape's "mind set?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44115 "freya122000" wrote: I belive that everything Snape does, he does with a purpose. I'm really having a problem trying to understand what books all the Snape apologists have read. It couldn't possibly be the same ones I read. I love the depth of Snape's character, but I think he is a reprehensible person. Probably very brave, definitely cunning, likely admirable and deserving respect for the sacrifices he has made and will continue to make, but how do people actually like him? I know there's a huge following of Snape fic writers that love to invent ways for Snape to love and be loved. I think they're 99% delusional, and that the majority of them are unduly influenced by their attraction to Alan Rickman. I can sort of understand this but those are fics and this is supposed to be a discussion of theories about the books, is it not? I can understand that there could be very good reasons for Snape to put on an act to make the children fear him, or dislike him, or think he's unfair, but he goes much further than that. So, for those of you that believe Snape is acting purposefully, I invite you to come up with a plausible reason for Snape to act the way he does in these scenes: 1. PoA - Snape's Grudge The one on one interview with Harry -- deliberately taunting Harry about James. Whether he has a good reason to hate James or not, what purpose could this possibly serve. Bear in mind that he is talking to a 13 year old orphan boy about his dead parents. 2. GoF - Hermione's Teeth Mocking a young girl about a physical attribute that she's sensitive about. This isn't severety, or favouritism, it is cruelty, with no purpose but the joy of seeing a child hurt. 3. PoA - Remus Revelation Clearly Snape and the rest of the staff were expected to keep quiet about Lupin being a werewolf. Him telling the Slytherins about it would be hard to explain with anything other than childish revenge for spoiling his misguided plans. It boggles my mind, really, that so many HP fans can get past these things. In a way I can understand how he treats Neville (presumably a "character building" excercise. He clearly has a poor understanding of Harry's character, even in the fourth year, since he continues to attack Harry's presumed quest for glory. Most of his attacks on Harry in class fall far from the mark because they are a mere annoyance. The only times he gets a rise out of Harry is when he attacks the character of his parents. It seems that a lot of the theories I've seen about Snape have gone way beyond an explanation of what has been shown so far in the books. I guess all I'm asking is that before more theories come out that provide a basis for Snape's behavior, take a good look at the behavior and don't just make a theory that explains why he is stern and doesn't shower. Erasmas From jenw118 at HotPOP.com Tue Sep 17 16:15:04 2002 From: jenw118 at HotPOP.com (Jennifer R. Wilson) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 11:15:04 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] New Question and Answer thing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000901c25e65$63744fb0$6bc5fbd8@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 44116 F yre Wood said Okay, I've read a few posts asking for a new question and answer thing, so here we go =) << 1.Do you think we'll ever go inside an Arithmacy class or perhaps any other classes we have yet to see? I'm not sure. I'd love to go inside an arithmancy class or a muggle studies class, but since the books are from Harry's POV, she would need to justify his need to be there. << 2. Do any of the pets in Harry Potter seem like they're not *really* pets. Crookshanks, maybe Hedwig. << 3. Name you favorite new organization with letters (Ie: N.I.N.E= Neville is not Evil) and try to come up with your own. don't have one, sorry. Maybe Draco Is Not Evil? Which brings me to my next question. << 4. Will Draco ever stop being oh so evil? Yes! I don't believe Draco is all that evil. I think it is more of an influence from his father, and he is afraid to let his true side show while his father is such a big influence, << 5. Predictions on the final chapter of book 7? Dumbledore's death, I would love if she did an epilogue to show us what happened to everyone after Hogwarts. So that would be my ideal happening for the last chapter. << 6. Ron and Hermione--Will they hook up? More than likely, yes. << 7. What's the deal with Wizard money? Does it collect interest? Why is it so darn big and heavy? Why not paper money instead of coins? Good question. I'm not sure. I would think it collects interest at Gringotts, I mean look at Harry's vault. << 8. If you could play any Quidditch possition, what would it be? Why? Which team? I would love to play Quidditch, probably something like a Chaser, since my vision is not all that great to see the Snitch for Seeker. I'd play for the Gryffindor team, nothing professional. << 9. Name a character who is going to have the most change in his/her characterization between books 5-7, and explain what changes might happen. I'd say Draco. Draco's father will be taken out of the board of governors and will not have as much influence on Draco. Somehow a nice side will get brought in him. << 10. What new flavors of Bertie Bott's beans would you like to eat? I'd like to try treacle tart, scone, tartar sauce. LOL Thanks for the questions, they were fun to answer! Jennifer [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Tue Sep 17 16:54:02 2002 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 16:54:02 -0000 Subject: New Question and Answer thing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44117 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Fyre Wood" wrote: > Okay, I've read a few posts asking for a new question and answer > thing, so here we go =) > > 1.Do you think we'll ever go inside an Arithmacy class or perhaps any > other classes we have yet to see? Only if Harry take this classes, and I doubt he will take arithmancy, because he had already divination and it seems to overlap. At least it did in year 3 and 4. > > 2. Do any of the pets in Harry Potter seem like they're not *really* > pets. I agree with everybody, who thinks that Crookshanks is part kneazle. I really doubt, we will see another pet-animagus like Scabbers, because we already had this and it wouldn't be a real surprise. > > 3. Name you favorite new organization with letters (Ie: N.I.N.E= > Neville is not Evil) and try to come up with your own. I like N.I.N.E. because I like Neville, and somewhere I read P.I.N.E. If this means, "Percy is not evil", I also agree. > > 4. Will Draco ever stop being oh so evil? I personally doubt it. He seems to become more and more evil, in contrast to Dudley, by the way. > > 5. Predictions on the final chapter of book 7? Well, I have heard it is sort of an epilogue in which we will hear what happen to the survivors. > > 6. Ron and Hermione--Will they hook up? Definately! > > 7. What's the deal with Wizard money? Does it collect interest? Why > is it so darn big and heavy? Why not paper money instead of coins? I think they use coins because it rounded the whole atmosphere. Paper money doesn't really fit in this world. > > 8. If you could play any Quidditch possition, what would it be? Why? I definately prefer to be fan. ;-) I don't like big highs very much. > Which team? > > 9. Name a character who is going to have the most change in his/her > characterization between books 5-7, and explain what changes might > happen. Neville. I think he will overcome his fear and become a really capable wizard. > > 10. What new flavors of Bertie Bott's beans would you like to eat? I would like to cost every sort, because I want to knoe, how it tastes. From nova_glitterfreak at yahoo.com Tue Sep 17 17:02:54 2002 From: nova_glitterfreak at yahoo.com (Nova Glitterfreak) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 10:02:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OoP Prediction Derby (from the archives) In-Reply-To: <000501c25dea$769609b0$7fc5fbd8@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <20020917170254.73618.qmail@web14508.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44118 I just can't not do this! I'm not sure I agree with all my answers, but I'm just trying to make it interesting... 1. What new magical place will we visit? I do think it's going to be Godric's Hollow, and I would say it's about time! And my guess is that James and Lily are buried there. 2. Are any of the Dursleys wizards? Who? Just to be different, I'll say Uncle Vernon! 3. Identify the next DADA teacher. Mundungus Fletcher. Again, just to be different. And you really have to be eccentric to have that job. 4. Which "beloved" character(s) will die? Any other deaths, and if so, who? I don't necessarily believe this, nor do I want it to happen, but what about Sirius? Or maybe Lupin. Arg, that would be horrible! 5. Of Lupin, Sirius, Krum, Fleur, Lockhart, Winky, Dobby, Moody, Bagman, Madam Maxime, which characters will have speaking lines in I hope Madam Maxime, since she should just be coming back with Hagrid from visiting the giants...definitely Lupin (and I for one will be thrilled to have him back, unless he dies), Sirius, Krum (briefly), Winky, Dobby, Moody, Bagman. I guess I only left out Lockhart. 6. At the end of OoP, will Dumbledore be the headmaster? Well, again just to play devil's advocate, I will say No. Assuming Voldemort has control over the MOM, he will see that he is deposed. Maybe he'll even be implicated in someone's death? I'm sure he'll die before the end of the series, though. 7. At the end of OoP, will Fudge be the Minister of Magic? No; Voldemort will have someone there. 8. At the end of OoP, will Neville be the same forgetful boy, or will he have changed in some way? His change will just be starting, but I don't think we'll see anything dramatic until book 6 or 7. 9. At the end, will Sirius have cleared his name? going along with my earlier prediction that he'll die, I'll say yes. (Again, I don't necessarily believe this or want it to happen.) 10. Will Harry and Voldemort have a confrontation? not this time. 11. Of the following magical things, which will a character use or confront: pensieve, veritaserum, boggart, Marauder's Map, whomping willow, polyjuice potion, nifflers, portkeys, rememberall, floo powder, time turner, sneakoscope, foe glass, secrecy sensor, knight bus. I think all of the above. Why not? And maybe Dumbledore's puter-outer will appear again? And I think we'll get a host of new magical items too. 12. Will there be Quiddich at Hogwarts? yes. If so, who will be the Gryffindor Keeper? I like the Seamus idea. Gryffindor Captain? maybe that Harry kid, although maybe one of the twins? and maybe that will lead to some animosity between them? 13. Will anyone else turn out to be an animagus? Who? maybe dumbledore? since he taught transfiguration... 14. Who is Mundungus Fletcher? old crowd. will become the new DADA teacher. 15. Will Wormtail use his silver hand in an important way? not yet, unless he kills Lupin with it. Okay...who's next? __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com From sugarkadi at aol.com Tue Sep 17 19:08:55 2002 From: sugarkadi at aol.com (sugarkadi at aol.com) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 15:08:55 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's job Message-ID: <4F705D4B.2F0AF810.0290C41F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44119 Sirius Kase wrote: > What you have posted is closest to what I believe, I think that prior > to Harry's first year, Quirrel was at Hogwarts but not in the role of > DADA instructor. So Snape misses out on the DADA > appointment a > minimum of 4 times. There's something in relation to Snape that I've been thinking about for a while and I'll post it now. And I apologize if it's been discussed before, I'm fairly new to the list. Do we really know that Snape wants the DADA job? I don't remember reading that anywhere, so if I've missed it just tell me and that will mess up my whole theory, but it's all good. Percy says everyone "knows" he wants the job. Often what everyone knows is not the truth(aka gossip). Percy's theory certainly seems supported by Snape's attitude to whoever the teacher is, but what if his hatred comes elsewhere? In SS, we know he suspects Quirrell, and tries to scare him into coming back to the good side. In CoS, well, that's pretty explanatory(Snapes extreme hatred could come from the reasons that all the teachers dislike Lockheart, but also Lockheart says he'll brew up a potion and Snape goes "Excuse me, but I am the potions master here", or something close to that. In PoA his hatred of Lupin comes from when they were boys, and whatever other unknown reasons that have been discussed extensively here. In GoF, he doesn't like Moody because he used to be on the dark side, and I believe Moody caught him(can someone find this in canon? I went to go look but I'm not sure where to look.). Also, Snape seems to have a passion for Potions, talking about the "softly simmering cauldrons", etc. My point is, that Snape has had a reason to dislike all the DADA teachers besides the fact that they have the DADA job. Anyone else have thoughts on this? ~Katey From mysmacek at yahoo.com Tue Sep 17 17:21:20 2002 From: mysmacek at yahoo.com (mysmacek) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 17:21:20 -0000 Subject: New Question and Answer thing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44120 Seeing the popularity of these polls, would you like something more organized? I think it would be possible for me to put together some web-based form, featuring the popular questions, let you enter your popular answers and watch the percentual results. Something like this: 12) Fudge is (o) evil ( ) good ( ) stupid Results: good: 10% evil: 50% stupid: 90% What do you think? [Mod Note: Please send replies concerning a web-based form of popular questions directly to Mysmacek off-list unless they contain a discussion of Harry Potter canon and make a canon point. This subject would also be appropriate for our OT-Chatter list. Thank you.] And since it's not done yet, I may as well answer this one here: --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Fyre Wood" wrote: > Okay, I've read a few posts asking for a new question and answer > thing, so here we go =) > > 1.Do you think we'll ever go inside an Arithmacy class or perhaps any > other classes we have yet to see? Not arithmancy, but surely some new interesting subject. What about "Spell development and implementation" ? :) > 2. Do any of the pets in Harry Potter seem like they're not *really* > pets. Crookshanks, Trevor, maybe some of Figg's cats? I think Hedwig is just an owl. Are there any others which are developed? (except of Reaper :o)) > 3. Name you favorite new organization with letters (Ie: N.I.N.E= > Neville is not Evil) and try to come up with your own. F.I.R.E.B.A.L.L. (Fudge Is Really Evil, Bad And Loving Lies). Heh. > 4. Will Draco ever stop being oh so evil? Only to become more so :) > 5. Predictions on the final chapter of book 7? .... and when Harry looked into the mirror, there was no scar. > 6. Ron and Hermione--Will they hook up? Yes > 7. What's the deal with Wizard money? Does it collect interest? Why > is it so darn big and heavy? Why not paper money instead of coins? They are backed with real gold :) I doubt the WW would trust something something so Mugglish as paper money. They probably use debt certificates, however > 8. If you could play any Quidditch possition, what would it be? Why? > Which team? Chaser for Czech national team :) > 9. Name a character who is going to have the most change in his/her > characterization between books 5-7, and explain what changes might > happen. Neville > 10. What new flavors of Bertie Bott's beans would you like to eat? bacon :) Mysmacek From sugarkadi at aol.com Tue Sep 17 19:16:56 2002 From: sugarkadi at aol.com (sugarkadi at aol.com) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 15:16:56 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] New Question and Answer thing Message-ID: <3CFED6B2.2344BFB4.0290C41F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44121 > > 1.Do you think we'll ever go inside an Arithmacy class or perhaps any > other classes we have yet to see? I'd really like to see Arithmancy or runes or astronomy, I hope so! > 2. Do any of the pets in Harry Potter seem like they're not *really* > pets. YES. I don't know what the deal is with Hermione and Crookshanks, but we never see her feeding him. I guess that could just be HArry's POV, though. And I wonder about Trevor sometimes. > 3. Name you favorite new organization with letters (Ie: N.I.N.E= > Neville is not Evil) and try to come up with your own. Erm, I have no idea. > 4. Will Draco ever stop being oh so evil? He won't stop acting like a little brat, but I don't think he'll go over to Voldemort. It seems too obvious. > 5. Predictions on the final chapter of book 7? I really hope Hagrid is still alive then, but I think he might not be. > 6. Ron and Hermione--Will they hook up? Yes! There's been chemistry brewing from the beginning. I'm reqading SS again and I'm amazed at how many little interchanges they have that I didn't notice before. But i think it will be short term. I go for HH for the long-term. > 7. What's the deal with Wizard money? Does it collect interest? Why > is it so darn big and heavy? Why not paper money instead of coins? Maybe it has something to do with how money used to be, a long time ago. They still use parchment and scrolls. The wizarding world seems to be more in touch with Medievel and pre-Medievel times than the muggle world. > 8. If you could play any Quidditch possition, what would it be? Why? > Which team? Probably Chaser, definately not Seeker. I have pretty good aim. > 9. Name a character who is going to have the most change in his/her > characterization between books 5-7, and explain what changes might > happen. Neville. Basically what everyone else has been saying. > 10. What new flavors of Bertie Bott's beans would you like > to eat? Black forest cake. ~Katey From primroseburrows at yahoo.com Tue Sep 17 19:58:44 2002 From: primroseburrows at yahoo.com (Primrose Burrows) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 12:58:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] New Question and Answer thing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020917195844.27038.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44122 Fyre Wood wrote: Okay, I've read a few posts asking for a new question and answer thing, so here we go =) >1.Do you think we'll ever go inside an Arithmacy class or perhaps any >other classes we have yet to see? Probably. I'm thinking Divination. 2. Do any of the pets in Harry Potter seem like they're not *really* pets. >Well, Hedwig, definitely, and we know abaut Scabbers. >3. Name you favorite new organization with letters >(Ie: N.I.N.E= >Neville is not Evil) and try to come up with your own. I don't think I know enough of them to choose. So..my own. S.A.A.B. (Slytherins Aren't All Bad). >4. Will Draco ever stop being oh so evil? I don't necessarily think Draco *is* evil (see above). He may mellow a bit, who knows? Either way, I hope he stays the snarky, intelligent, witty, self-centered little creep I know and love. I also hope JKR fleshes his character out a bit more, 'cause he's my favorite. >5. Predictions on the final chapter of book 7? I may be in a nursing home before I get to read it? >6. Ron and Hermione--Will they hook up? :::puts on Trelawney far-off expression::: All signs point to "yes" >7. What's the deal with Wizard money? Does it collect interest? Nah. Interest is a Muggle invention >Why is it so darn big and heavy? Why not paper money >instead of coins? Because it's cooler? I dunno. >8. If you could play any Quidditch possition, what would it be? Seeker >Why? I'd like to be up there above the crowd. Which team? Any one who happens to be playing Slytherin. It'd be a wild game, playing Draco. >9. Name a character who is going to have the most change in his/her >characterization between books 5-7, and explain what changes might happen. Harry. He's going to have to explore the darker side of himself a lot more. In order to fight the enemy, you have to know them, and that's going to force some introspective musings from the Boy-Who-Lived. At least I hope so. >10. What new flavors of Bertie Bott's beans would you like to eat? Horseradish (I like strong flavors). Also Chammomile, Mustard, Hot Dog Relish, Water (just because I want to see someone try) and School Paste (don't ask). ______________ Perhaps someone will *actually* reply to a post I make without slamming me for liking Draco Malfoy and saying that Neville is infact NOT evil. =) I like Neville. I simply *adore* Draco. No slamming whatsoever. ~primrose "We're strange allies with warring hearts; what wild-eyed beast you be..." --Dave Matthews --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gandharvika at hotmail.com Tue Sep 17 22:07:12 2002 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 22:07:12 +0000 Subject: [HP4Grownups)OT Question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44123 Hey guys...I don't know how off-topic this question is, but I've got this bet going on down at work here and I need somebody to help me out... Where in the books does Dumbledore tell Harry that "Scars come in handy" and that he himself has a scar on his knee that looks like the London Underground? I remember reading it but, gosh darn, I don't know where. I was *sure* it was in CoS, but I've just went through it to no avail. I'm just now skimming through PoA. Am I missing something here? Thanx -Gail B. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From dedanaan at shaw.ca Tue Sep 17 20:51:57 2002 From: dedanaan at shaw.ca (karen mcvicker) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 15:51:57 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] School Year Length References: Message-ID: <01f801c25e8c$1003ebc0$6401a8c0@dedanaan> No: HPFGUIDX 44124 Hi Uncmark, > Do English schools stay in session that long? It would mean a summer > holiday of barely 2 months! The grammar school I went to in the UK ran from the beginning of September to the last day of June. We had 2 weeks off at Christmas (return date was January 7th, after the 12 days of Christmas were officially over) and one week off at Easter. Also, because it was a convent school, we did get the Holy Days of Obligation off, as well as bank holidays, but that was it. 8 weeks was it for Summer Holidays and a pretty intense courseload during the school year. Karen From the.gremlin at verizon.net Tue Sep 17 21:12:42 2002 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (ats_fhc3) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 21:12:42 -0000 Subject: OoP Prediction Derby (from the archives) In-Reply-To: <000501c25dea$769609b0$7fc5fbd8@oemcomputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44125 All right, my turn: > > > > 1. What new magical place will we visit? I'm rooting for Azkaban. That's what I'm most interested in, anyway > > > > 2. Are any of the Dursleys wizards? Who? Nope. There's something about them, though. > > > > 3. Identify the next DADA teacher. Someone we've never heard of. A woman, but someone new. > > > > 4. Which "beloved" character(s) will die? Any other deaths, > > and if so, who? Hagrid. I don't know how he's gonna be offed, but it's definitely Hagrid. > > > > 5. Of Lupin, Sirius, Krum, Fleur, Lockhart, Winky, Dobby, Moody, > > > > Bagman, Madam Maxime, which characters will have speaking lines in Lupin, Sirius, the elves, and Madame Maxime. > > > > 6. At the end of OoP, will Dumbledore be the headmaster? Yup. I don't think it's possible for that school to be run-decently- by anyone else. > > > > 7. At the end of OoP, will Fudge be the Minister of Magic? I think he's wind up doing something to aid evil. He'll be a very misguided MoM. > > > > 8. At the end of OoP, will Neville be the same forgetful boy, or > > > > will he have changed in some way? I think we'll start to see some developments to his character, but I don't think he'll really change till the end of book 6, or even till book 8. > > > > 9. At the end of OoP, will Sirius have cleared his name? I don't think his name will be cleared, but he'll have more and more people believing, knowing, that he is innocent. > > > > 10. Will Harry and Voldemort have a confrontation? No, just some DEs. We need a break from Voldy. > > > > 11. Of the following magical things, which will a character use > > or confront: pensieve, veritaserum, boggart, Marauder's Map, > > whomping willow, polyjuice potion, nifflers, portkeys, rememberall, > floo > > > > powder, time turner, sneakoscope, foe glass, secrecy sensor, > > knight bus. Enough with the polujuice! No more polyjuice! The pensieve will return, veritaserum, the Map, portkeys, foe glass, and knight bus. > > > > 12. Will there be Quiddich at Hogwarts? There better be! There was none in the last book, can't have 2 books w/o Quidditch. > > > > If so, who will be the Gryffindor Keeper? I want to say Ron, but I can't imagine him being on the Quidditch team. > > > > Gryffindor Captain? Harry. No one else but Harry. He'll be unanimously voted, or something, and he'll protest, and Ron'll hate him, and midway through the book it'll work out. > > > > 13. Will anyone else turn out to be an animagus? Who? We're done with that topic. > > > > > 14. Who is Mundungus Fletcher? Some nutter who will be very important or semi-important in book 5. > > > > > 15. Will Wormtail use his silver hand in an important way? Right, he got it last book, and he's not going to use it? Come on! Yes, he'll use it. There's my 2 cents...or knuts. -Acire, who wants to know what happened to all the questions about Snape. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From the.gremlin at verizon.net Tue Sep 17 21:21:01 2002 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (ats_fhc3) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 21:21:01 -0000 Subject: New Question and Answer thing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44126 I'm trying to not do my homework, so here we go! --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Fyre Wood" wrote: > Okay, I've read a few posts asking for a new question and answer > thing, so here we go =) > > 1.Do you think we'll ever go inside an Arithmacy class or perhaps any > other classes we have yet to see? I hope so! I'm getting tired of Divination. > 2. Do any of the pets in Harry Potter seem like they're not *really* > pets. No. Just really, really smart. > 3. Name you favorite new organization with letters (Ie: N.I.N.E= > Neville is not Evil) and try to come up with your own. Heh heh...no. I don't really like the organizations. I just kinda...watch. > > 4. Will Draco ever stop being oh so evil? Yah. He'll do something good, but still be snarky about it. > > 5. Predictions on the final chapter of book 7? A bunch of people will die, Voldy will be defeated, Snape will be redeemed, uh...and the last word will be 'scar'! > > 6. Ron and Hermione--Will they hook up? I think they'll work something out so they'll remain friends, instead of turning into one of those relationships where you hook up, and after you break up, you never speak to one another again. > > 7. What's the deal with Wizard money? Does it collect interest? Why > is it so darn big and heavy? Why not paper money instead of coins? It COULD collect interest. And it's old-fashioned, like the rest of the wizarding world. Besides, paper money is boring. Wizards aren't. Unless you're Prof. Binns. > 8. If you could play any Quidditch possition, what would it be? Why? > Which team? Chaser, more flying, and through the whole game instead of just sitting around for most of it, looking for the snitch and dodging bludgers. I'm a Slytherin gal, so it's have to be Slytherin. They'll just have to let girls on the team. > > 9. Name a character who is going to have the most change in his/her > characterization between books 5-7, and explain what changes might > happen. Snape and Neville. Well, Snape's change won't be that he's in a permantly good mood, but, you know. > > 10. What new flavors of Bertie Bott's beans would you like to eat? Anything with coffee. This was great. But I still need something else to do so I don't have to do my hw! -Acire, who is seriously considering to start writing some fanfic, and believes that she may have finally lost it. From i_am_erasmas at yahoo.ca Tue Sep 17 22:36:04 2002 From: i_am_erasmas at yahoo.ca (i_am_erasmas) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 22:36:04 -0000 Subject: New Question and Answer thing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44127 Thanks for the questions. Here's my take: 1.Do you think we'll ever go inside an Arithmacy class or perhaps any other classes we have yet to see? Good question. Its going to be a long, reflective summer and I wouldn't be surprised if Harry decides to drop divination for something more useful. I think there's potential for special sessions in DADA or dueling training. We may find out more about arithmancy but it will be second hand through Hermione. 2. Do any of the pets in Harry Potter seem like they're not *really* pets. I'll be disappointed if Crookshanks' abilities aren't made more clear. He's still a pet just more than what he appears to be. 3. Name you favorite new organization with letters (Ie: N.I.N.E= Neville is not Evil) and try to come up with your own. Down with acronyms. There's too many as it is. 4. Will Draco ever stop being oh so evil? I think he's more pitiful than evil. He obviously has some hard choices to make soon. He'll make a poor choice and pay for it. I doubt if he'll be redeemed. 5. Predictions on the final chapter of book 7? Well, if it's an epilogue, it will show what Ron, Harry, Hermione, and possibly Ginny are up to 5 to 10 years down the road. Those four will live. 6. Ron and Hermione--Will they hook up? Yes 7. What's the deal with Wizard money? Does it collect interest? Why is it so darn big and heavy? Why not paper money instead of coins? The wizard economy is based on recovery of lost muggle treasure. I expect Gringots has extensive operations in the mediteranean and the caribean, particularly the Burmuda triangle. 8. If you could play any Quidditch possition, what would it be? Why? Which team? Beater. What could be more fun? No set team just pick-up games. 9. Name a character who is going to have the most change in his/her characterization between books 5-7, and explain what changes might happen. Ginny. Aside from a few hints showing increased maturity in book 4, she has a long way to go. We know so little about her that change wouldn't even be a good word to describe it. Just getting to know her will be what changes. She has a big role to play before the end. 10. What new flavors of Bertie Bott's beans would you like to eat? You don't want to know. Erasmas From i_am_erasmas at yahoo.ca Tue Sep 17 22:46:43 2002 From: i_am_erasmas at yahoo.ca (i_am_erasmas) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 22:46:43 -0000 Subject: Snape's job In-Reply-To: <4F705D4B.2F0AF810.0290C41F@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44128 Katey wrote: > > Do we really know that Snape wants the DADA job? No we do not. And I think you're right -- it's based on gossip. Percy tells Harry Snape wants to teach DADA in book 1 and the assumptions continue from there. When Harry mentions this to Lupin in book 3, Lupin dismisses Harry. I believe he just doesn't feel it would be appropriate to discuss another professor. As you say, Snape has alternative (though not necessarily valid) reasons for disliking all the DADA teachers. I think Snape would have had no problems with Lupin were it not for their past. Erasmas From mdemeran at hotmail.com Tue Sep 17 23:04:44 2002 From: mdemeran at hotmail.com (Meg Demeranville) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 18:04:44 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Scars References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44129 Gail asked: Where in the books does Dumbledore tell Harry that "Scars come in handy" and that he himself has a scar on his knee that looks like the London Underground? I remember reading it but, gosh darn, I don't know where. I was *sure* it was in CoS, but I've just went through it to no avail. I'm just now skimming through PoA. Am I missing something here? It is in the first book. He doesn't tell Harry though, it is said to McGonagall. The quote is: "Couldn't you do something about it, Dumbledore?" "Even if I could, I wouldn't. Scars can come in handy. I have one myself above my left knee that is a perfect map of the London Underground. Well -- give him here, Hagrid -- we'd better get this over with" (p. 15 US hardback) Hope that helps you out. -- Meg (who has one more test to go this week in her first test block of medical school, and the vicious caffeine hangover to go with it) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Malady579 at hotmail.com Tue Sep 17 23:09:49 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 23:09:49 -0000 Subject: [HP4Grownups)OT Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44130 Gail B. Asked: >> Where in the books does Dumbledore tell Harry that "Scars come in handy" and that he himself has a scar on his knee that looks like the London Underground? << Gail, it is in the First chapter of SS/PS. Dumbledore is telling McGonagall why he did not "fix" Harry's scar. Now the quuestion is, does the map of the underground of London on Dumbledore's knee come into play later? Melody From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Tue Sep 17 22:57:22 2002 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 22:57:22 -0000 Subject: Professor Trelawney's First Prediction In-Reply-To: <20020913050836.24631.qmail@web12407.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44131 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., candlewick wrote: > Didn't Pettigrew hear about the prediction when he was > Scabbers, and Harry was telling Ron about it with > Scabbers present? No he didn't. After Trelawney's second real prediction Harry wanted to tell Ron and Hermione, but he forgot, when they told him about Buckbeak. The first person Harry told about the prediction was Dumbledore the next day, when Peter was already gone. I assume Harry told Ron and Hermione later, because they knew in Goblet of fire, but he didn't this evening. And by the way, after the divination exam, Scabbers was presumed eaten by Crookshanks. Hermione found him later in the day at Hagrid's. Hickengruendler From the.gremlin at verizon.net Tue Sep 17 23:57:27 2002 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (ats_fhc3) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 23:57:27 -0000 Subject: Snape's job In-Reply-To: <4F705D4B.2F0AF810.0290C41F@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44132 sugarkadi wrote: > There's something in relation to Snape that I've been thinking about for a while and I'll post it now. And I apologize if it's been discussed before, I'm fairly new to the list. > > Do we really know that Snape wants the DADA job? I don't remember reading that anywhere, so if I've missed it just tell me and that will mess up my whole theory, but it's all good. Percy says everyone "knows" he wants the job. Often what everyone knows is not the truth(aka gossip). Percy's theory certainly seems supported by Snape's attitude to whoever the teacher is, but what if his hatred comes elsewhere? In SS, we know he suspects Quirrell, and tries to scare him into coming back to the good side. In CoS, well, that's pretty explanatory(Snapes extreme hatred could come from the reasons that all the teachers dislike Lockheart, but also Lockheart says he'll brew up a potion and Snape goes "Excuse me, but I am the potions master here", or something close to that. In PoA his hatred of Lupin comes from when they were boys, and whatever other unknown reasons that have been discussed extensively here. In GoF, he doesn't like Moody because he used to be on the dark side, and I believe Moody caught him(can someone find this in canon? I went to go look but I'm not sure where to look.). Also, Snape seems to have a passion for Potions, talking about the "softly simmering cauldrons", etc. > > My point is, that Snape has had a reason to dislike all the DADA teachers besides the fact that they have the DADA job. Anyone else have thoughts on this? > > ~Katey Ahh, you have hit the topic I am most fond and adamant about. I believe that Snape does not want the DADA job. Surely, he's good at the Dark Arts stuff, but I think he's *ahem* happier teaching Potions. I mean, he's supposed to be only 35/36, and he's a Potions Master (does anyone know what that's supposed to mean? Is it like having a doctorate degree in potions? Should we be calling him "Dr. Snape"?), and he's supposed to be really good at it. Percy and Harry are the only ones, that I can remember, who have said Snape wants the DADA job. Someone pointed out to me that in PoA, when Snape's substituting for Lupin, he says something to the effect of "It's time someone took this class in hand", and the poster used that quote as their evidence that Snape wanted the DADA position. Well, I think he just said that because the last 2 teachers were...who they were, and he hated/had a great dislike for Lupin. He didn't like Quirrel because Quirrel was extremely suspicious- looking, he didn't like Lockhardt because Lockhardt was an idiot, he didn't like Lupin because they went to school together, and Moody, I would like to argue that Snape was somewhat *afraid* of Moody, because Moosy knew things about Snape that could, to quote Rita Skeeter, "make your hair curl". I think that Snape just hasn't approved of the last 4 DADA teachers, and is perfectly content in his happy little dungeon corner, stirring a spoon 'round and 'round his favorie cauldron. -Acire, who believes that the potions master quote goes "Excuse me, but I believe *I* am the Potions Master here", and finds that quite scary because she has no canon and hasn't read CoS in 2-3 months. From awillia2 at gladstone.uoregon.edu Wed Sep 18 00:15:45 2002 From: awillia2 at gladstone.uoregon.edu (Aesha Williams) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 17:15:45 -0700 Subject: OoP predictions; Voldy the muggle-born leader Message-ID: <001101c25ea8$890ad3a0$4ad1df80@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 44133 It's been a while since I've sent an email... but some of this chatter has gotten me thinking. > So, how did a half-cast (mudblood) wizard from poor (orphanage) beginnings become the head > of a group that loathe poor half-cast wizards? Well, I think that the eradication of muggle-borns is kind of a side project, an added bonus... in esscence, not the main goal. The main objective of Voldemort and the Death Eaters is to gain power, to rule the Wizarding world with a dark hand. Voldemort may be a muggle-born, but he is intelligent, knowledgeable, and willing to do whatever it takes to gain a full understanding and working knowledge of dark magic. It is for this reason that the rest of the Death Eaters follow him- because he posesses a greater knowledge of dangerous magic, and because of his proficiency in the Dark Arts, he poses a threat to them- so it would be a foolish thing to strike against him unless you had Trelawny feeding you prophecies of glory. > 9. At the end of OoP, will Sirius have cleared his name? > I would love for that to happen, but I doubt that will until at theearliest the sixth book. If Sirius is going to be cleared before the final book... while it won't be the whole plot in the book, it will be the other major plot point. And I don't think it will happen at the beginning of the book. It would be too anti-climactic; this is a big event. > 12. Will there be Quiddich at Hogwarts? If so, who will be the Gryffindor Keeper? Gryffindor Keeper... well, not Neville, of course. Seamus doesn't seem like he plays as much as he spectates, and while Dean likes Quidditch, he's never played it (that we've seen, at least). I would find it hard to believe that he has the same type of natural talent as Harry. What other Gryffindors do we know? Ginny, Hermione (who I definately don't see playing as well, for mostly the same reasons as Dean), Ron... and Colin and Dennis. I would like to say Colin, just because he's so out in left field. But, again, he's never played. So I will say Ron, like it seems the majority of people are. > Gryffindor Captain? Well. It seems as though it will be someone we don't immediately suspect, so I would throw out Fred, George and Harry. I think Angelina has been groomed to be the captain; out of the "secondary" team members (who we really only hear about in relation to Quidditch), we don't really hear much about Alicia or Katie. Angelina is one of the older students, a good player, seems smart and confident. My question being, though- she turned 17 right at the beginning of GOF, but did they indicate what year she was? So either she was in her last year, or she will turn 18 in the beginning of her last year? After Alicia (or whoever the new Captain is) leaves, I hope it goes to Ron. I may be flamed for this- but I am a little tired of Harry having all the limelight, and to some extent, Hermione as well (being the perfect student, smart, naturally talented...). At least, someone besides Harry. > 14. Who is Mundungus Fletcher? Well, I never really thought about it much- besides a guy who tries to con money out of the MOM - but now I'm curious. Perhaps he was once an auror? Or an obliviator- or, even better, one of the Unspeakables. Oooh, I really want more info on them! > 15. Will Wormtail use his silver hand in an important way? Who was it that said he would use it to try to kill Remus? I wouldn't have thought of that, but it makes perfect sense. Good thinking! Aesha ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Past Honored Queen #77, Eugene, Oregon Grand Bethel Honored Queen 1999~2000 International Order of Job's Daughters ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rvotaw at i-55.com Wed Sep 18 01:52:58 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 20:52:58 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Name meanings: Arabella Figg/ Hagrid References: <182.e84a174.2ab860e4@aol.com> Message-ID: <011401c25eb6$237abba0$609ecdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 44134 Eloise arrives just in time to tranform me back into a human again: > Eloise, hearing a commotion from the classroom she is passing, finds Richard > (whose nerves I am becoming quite concerned about) bouncing a ferret on the > floor. Brandishing her wand and transforming the ferret back into an > indignant Richelle, she demands an explanation: [That's it. I'm not really > TBAYing, I just couldn't resist the image!] Thank you Eloise. I am developing a bit of compassion for Draco. Is that bad? (sticks thumb in mouth, grabs security blanket and teddy bear before continuing) > Be fair to Richelle. She does realise that her etymologies are considered > fanciful by Latinists (you do, don't you?) - hence banging her head on her > desk. Yes, and it also hinges on something else. JKR herself not being a Latin scholar (French teacher yes, Latin scholar, no), and since she is the one who's come up with all of this, I simply don't see it as vital for everything to be grammatically correct to make a nice story. Take Wingardium Leviosar (sorry if I spelled it wrong, I REALLY don't want to be turned back into a ferret again), for example. I haven't researched it properly, but I think leviosar can be related to a lightness, but then wing is thrown in there, completely unLatin. > I think Richelle knows that her ideas are controversial and hasn't pretended > otherwise or indeed, that they are any more than her opinion. Thank you for noticing, I AM very opinionated. And I love creating controversy. :) GulPlum/Richard writes: > Now, I admit that I'd never heard of a "Hagrid" in Greek mythology, so I > was prepared to assume that I might not know as much as I thought. However, > no online source about Greek mythology > (http://www.pantheon.org/areas/mythology/europe/greek/articles.html seems > like a good place to start) seems to have heard of this character. I think perhaps the same people who've started making up tales about Running Weasel, a knight of King Arthur being killed or nearly killed or something by a rat must be at work again. At least I've never heard any such thing, funny it should come up now. :) Now, once again I'll venture I could be stupid again, but I always perceived Hagrid to be a "play" on the word haggard. Considering Hagrid doesn't look, well, too spiffy. Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From lterrellgiii at icqmail.com Wed Sep 18 01:57:31 2002 From: lterrellgiii at icqmail.com (L. Terrell Gould, III) Date: 17 Sep 2002 18:57:31 -0700 Subject: Name meanings: Arabella Figg (a bit of T-bay continued for my own amusement) Message-ID: <20020918015731.5818.cpmta@c012.snv.cp.net> No: HPFGUIDX 44135 An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From rvotaw at i-55.com Wed Sep 18 02:04:26 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 21:04:26 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] New Question and Answer thing References: Message-ID: <012701c25eb7$b7c28580$609ecdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 44136 Fyre Wood writes: > Okay, I've read a few posts asking for a new question and answer > thing, so here we go =) Oh, goody. (takes thumb out of mouth and lays security blanket and teddy bear aside) Something I can answer with *opinions.* > 1.Do you think we'll ever go inside an Arithmacy class or perhaps any > other classes we have yet to see? Well, after reading HP I did a little study into Arithmacy and while I think it's rather interesting, it would be a bit boring to read about. I'd like to go in an astronomy class, though. > 2. Do any of the pets in Harry Potter seem like they're not *really* > pets. Oh, yes, yes, yes. Trevor. I think he's Neville's great uncle, what's his name? Algie? Aggie? Something. Anyway, that theory will be totally blown out of the water if it is discovered that his great uncle gave him the toad in person. But Neville only says his great uncle gave it to him, he doesn't say how. He could've sent it (and actually BEEN it). > 3. Name you favorite new organization with letters (Ie: N.I.N.E= > Neville is not Evil) and try to come up with your own. AFTER (Arabella Figg Teaches Every Rule) in defending the dark arts, that is. Okay, sounds stupid, but I couldn't think of anything. :) > 4. Will Draco ever stop being oh so evil? I'm not sure. I'm beginning to buy into the "abused Draco" theory. I don't think he and Harry will ever become friends, nothing so drastic as that, but he may mellow a little. MUCH later on. > 5. Predictions on the final chapter of book 7? I think by the time we get to the final chapter whoever's going to die will be dead. It'll sum up what's happened throughout the "last stand." > 6. Ron and Hermione--Will they hook up? Yes, if Ron lives. If not, well, obviously not. > 7. What's the deal with Wizard money? Does it collect interest? Why > is it so darn big and heavy? Why not paper money instead of coins? Because shiny stuff is much cooler than paper money. I think it does collect interest, not sure of the current rate. :) > 8. If you could play any Quidditch possition, what would it be? Why? > Which team? I'd be a seeker because you get to move really fast. And watch the action while you're waiting. Keepers have too much work, Beaters have to be too violent, and Chasers have to avoid too many obstacles. Seekers win the game, too. Or lose, for that matter. I don't think I'd play professionally, just at school. For Gryffindor, or Ravenclaw as I'd probably be sorted into. Although all those little internet things put me in Gryffindor. I guess it's rigged. > 9. Name a character who is going to have the most change in his/her > characterization between books 5-7, and explain what changes might > happen. Neville. He's already brave inwardly, but it will begin to show outwardly and he will die to save his friends. > 10. What new flavors of Bertie Bott's beans would you like to eat? Carrot cake with cream cheese icing. All in one bean, of course. > I'll answer this later.. it's more of a random thing. Perhaps someone > will *actually* reply to a post I make without slamming me for liking > Draco Malfoy and saying that Neville is infact NOT evil. =) I'm not slamming. :) As I said above, I'm beginning to feel a tiny bit sorry for Draco. It could have had something to do with my earlier transformation into a bouncing ferret. :D And I like Neville, I don't think he's the least bit evil. I think he will have a tough choice to make, as Peter Pettigrew did, but Neville will choose the right path. And die a hero's death. Sorry, I know, I kill everybody off at some point or another. Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From nplyon at yahoo.com Wed Sep 18 02:00:08 2002 From: nplyon at yahoo.com (Nicole L.) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 19:00:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: {FILK} Lockhart Message-ID: <20020918020008.9423.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44137 (To the tune of "Gaston" from Disney's "Beauty and the Beast.") I have always loved this song and thought it would be a fitting tribute to our favorite rascal, Lockhart. I had a *lot* of fun writing this one, especially the stage directions. :) Snape, his lip curling in an ugly sneer as he sings: Gosh it disturbs me that youre here, Lockhart Trying to teach bout Dark Arts Every prof hered like to slap you, Lockhart Smack you so hard that it smarts Theres no wizard or witch as fraudlent as you Youre certainly irksomely rich Everyones snowed and defrauded by you And its I who will become a snitch No ones slick as Lockhart No one tricks like Lockhart No ones half as incredibly thick as Lockhart For theres no wizard whos such a shyster Absurd! Quite a pure come-on! Id like to ask Albus Dumbledore, Sir, How could you hire this joke? Is your mind that far gone? McGonagall, Flitwick, Sprout, Hooch, et al: No one cloys like Lockhart And annoys like Lockhart Snape: No ones cheated the wizarding world like Lockhart! Lockhart, polishing his nails on his lilac robes: As a fashion plate, yes, Im coordinated! Snape and the Professors: My, what a fraud, that Lockhart! Cast five curses! Cast one great hex! Snape: Lockhart alone holds the great power to vex! Snape and the professors: No one charms like Lockhart Can disarm like Lockhart Snape: In a dueling match, nobody bites* like Lockhart Besotted witchesincluding Molly Weasleyswooning and fanning themselves: For theres no one as sexy and studly Lockhart, beaming and winking: As you see, my smile is so blinding Snape, snarling: The witches think hes precious and cuddly Lockhart: Thats right! And every last witch I will be spell-binding! The Profs, looks of scorn on their faces: A nitwit, this Lockhart Snape: Worlds great twit, this Lockhart Harry and Ron, disgusted: >From a basilisk, nobody splits like Lockhart Lockhart, glancing over his shoulder and trembling in fear: Im especially good at turning and fleeing Mummy! Snape, Profs, Harry, and Ron: Good riddance, Lockhart! Lockhart, reminiscing: When I was a lad I dreamt of wealth and fame And a mouthful of teeth like great pearls And now that Im grown Everything is a game At which I always win all the girls! Snape, Profs, Harry, and Ron: No one fibs like Lockhart Is as glib as Lockhart Snape: Or goes traveling plagiarizing like Lockhart Lockhart, leaning in and conspiratorially shielding the side of his mouth facing the rest of the company: I use conditioner to keep my locks gleaming! Snape, Profs, Harry, and Ron: My what a fraudLockhart! (As they hold onto the last note, Lockhart is smiling and waving, Miss America-style. The rest of the company lifts their wands simultaneously and points them at Lockhart, who disappears in a puff of lilac-colored smoke.) *"Bites" is an American slang term equivalent to "sucks", meaning the person is terrible at something. Not sure if this is used in Brit-speak. ~Nicole, who will now be humming this song for days! __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Sep 18 02:06:11 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 02:06:11 -0000 Subject: New Question and Answer thing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44138 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Fyre Wood" wrote: > Okay, I've read a few posts asking for a new question and answer > thing, so here we go =) > bboy_mn gives it a shot: > 1.Do you think we'll ever go inside an Arithmacy class or perhaps > any other classes we have yet to see? Probably not, as someone else pointed out, we see from Harry's Point of view and he is not in this class. Also, while it may be interesting to a math major, this particular form of divination does not lend itself to the plot possibilities that a character like Trelawney does. > 2. Do any of the pets in Harry Potter seem like they're not > *really* pets. > Tuff call. There is definitely something wierd about Crookshanks, and there is a school of thought that another one of the pets is an animagi. Right now the strongest line of thought leans towards Neville's toad Trevor. You have to admit, that toad does get a lot of 'ink time', and he does seem to get around a lot. Why is he always trying to escape? I have some thoughts about the possibility that Hedwig might be more than she appears, but I don't know if I'm comfortable with that. I think I would like to leave Hedwig as Harry's trusting, sensitive, loyal bird and friend. > 3. Name you favorite new organization with letters (Ie: N.I.N.E= > Neville is not Evil) and try to come up with your own. Coming up with those cute abriviations is not an easy task, so I'm stump. Can't think of a think that's original. > > 4. Will Draco ever stop being oh so evil? > Draco is not evil; he's just a cowardly selfish spoiled mean little brat who has been sheltered from the realities of life by his wealth. I think that Draco will not become a Death Eater. Once he has to face reality and sees what being a Death Eater means, he will lose interest very quickly. The first time he sees his omnipotent, god-like, every powerful, perfect Daddy who can do anything, groveling on the ground kissing Voldemort butt (oh, I guess that maybe should be robe) and cowering like a frightened rabbit, the first time he sees an innocent person being tortured or murdered, he will not be so keen to join the gang. His attitude will suddenly do an about face. His perfect powerful Daddy will be seen for the coward he is. Voldemort will be seen for the insane megalomaniac that he is. Does that mean Draco will become a nice guy? No, sorry Draco was born an a$$hole, he will live as an a$$hole and he will die an a$$hole (hope I don't get into trouble for those dollar signs). He will always despise and torment the TRIO. He will always be a first class jerk. He will always be obnoxious, annoying, and self-center with his own delusions of self-importants. He will just be all those things for the good side. Draco will not be unselfish in his motives for joining the good guys. Draco serves Darco, and once he sees what a worthless wasted world the ever so insane Voldemort is offering him, he will see more power, more future, more prestige, and more money in joining the good guys. > 5. Predictions on the final chapter of book 7? > The three people I love most will still be alive, (Harry, Ron, Hermione). ALIVE I SAY, ALIVE! Although, they will be much worse for the wear. I don't think they will escape without serious physical and psychological injuries. Harry of course, will save the day with a combination of his usual extreme blind bluddering LUCK, and some special powers that will be revealed. Not to mention a lot of help from many other people. I see Harry as going through another sad dark stage where he is abandon by the general population around him, except this time, it won't just be the students, it will be a substantial majority of the wizard world. Sadly, I think Neville will be dead, having died a hero's death. Neville is too promenent in the story to just be a background character. Something significant is going to happen with Neville, and I refuse to believe he turns evil, although he may make some serious blundering mistakes along the way, he will be a hero in the end; a dead hero. Entirely possible that one or both of the Creevey brothers will be dead. Watch for characters who suddenly take on a greater role and suddenly become much more sympathetic and likable. They are as good as dead. > 6. Ron and Hermione--Will they hook up? > I think they definitely will, but I suspect it will not be an easy process. I suspect Ron will have or at least perceive competition from other suitors which will lead to a lot of jealousy which in turn will manifest itself in a great deal of hostility between Hermione and Ron. They are both head strong and stubborn. They are a perfect match. Their relationship will be characterized by a great deal of annoying the hell out of each other, but it will be an annoyance that could never overpower their love. The next question is 'Will they stay together?'. I'm not sure about that, I could see Hermione after a great battle of triangular love, ending up with someone else, and Ron be somewhat OK with that. > 7. What's the deal with Wizard money? Does it collect interest? > Why is it so darn big and heavy? Why not paper money instead of > coins? > Striking or minting coins has been around for centuries longer than the printing press. So, the wizard world, being somewhat behing the times, still sticks with the tried and true; coins. Besides, they are pretty. Also, it's possible, as it was in many older money systems, that the real value of the money is in it's weight in gold or silver. The value of a gold Galleon, is the current wizard's market value for that weight in gold, or perhaps they have a gold standard value which is usually substantially under the free market value to allow for fluctuations in the market. All USA money used to be back by a reserve of an equal value of gold. For every Federal Reserve note or Silver Certificate, there was an equivalent amount of precious metal in a federal vault somewhere backing it up. > 8. If you could play any Quidditch possition, what would it be? Why? > Which team? > Well, Keeper and Seeker have the easiest jobs. They aren't in constant play like the beaters and chasers, so I think I would be a keeper or a seeker. I would play on the school teams and maybe a 'sandlot' team after school, but I would want to keep it in the relm of fun. > 9. Name a character who is going to have the most change in his/her > characterization between books 5-7, and explain what changes might > happen. > Has to be Neville. Come on, we all know there is something going on with Neville that is greater than the obvious. Neville isn't fill or background, he has a significant purpose in the story, so his role and his character have to change in order to fullfil that destiny. > 10. What new flavors of Bertie Bott's beans would you like to eat? > What flavors would I like to SEE? Or, what flavors would I like to EAT? There are tons of relatively normal and somewhat strange flavors I would like to see, like ginger, ginger ale, yogurt, garbage water, eye crust/sand, toe jamb, ... But to eat, I think I would stick with the common flavors like fruit, coconut, melon, or common foods like toast or bacon. End- bboy_mn > > --Fyre Wood, who now heads off to her English class...Gosh I still > hate college. Too much work, not enough play! From nplyon at yahoo.com Wed Sep 18 02:35:04 2002 From: nplyon at yahoo.com (Nicole L.) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 19:35:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Survey Message-ID: <20020918023504.52307.qmail@web20901.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44140 Bad Listie! Bad Listie! (Bangs head against floor). Forgot to change the subject the last time I sent this!!! --- "Nicole L." wrote: > Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 19:33:50 -0700 (PDT) > From: "Nicole L." > Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 2127 > To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > > My turn!!! > > > 1. What new magical place will we visit? > > Azkaban. I just *really* want to see if Azkaban is > the dingy, filthy, damp dungeon I imagine it to be. > > > 2. Are any of the Dursleys wizards? Who? > > Petunia, Petunia, Petunia!!!!! > > Oh, did I mention Petunia? :) > > > 3. Identify the next DADA teacher. > > Arabella Figg or the real Alastor Moody. > > > 4. Which "beloved" character(s) will die? Any > > other deaths, > > and if so, who? > > Well, here's who I think will die, but not all of > them > necessarily in book 5: Dumbledore (book 5), Snape, > Hagrid, and possibly one of the Dursleys. But not > Ron. Please, Jo, not Ron!!! > > > 5. Of Lupin, Sirius, Krum, Fleur, Lockhart, > Winky, > > Dobby, Moody, > > Bagman, Madam Maxime, which characters will have > > speaking lines in > > OoP. > > Oh, please, JKR, please give Sirius some lines!!! I > *love* Sirius. Okay, Sirius, Lupin, Dobby, Winky > (something tells me we're not done with the house > elves yet), and Moody. > > > 6. At the end of OoP, will Dumbledore be the > > headmaster? > > No, because he'll be dead. I firmly believe he will > die. I thought he was the one who was going to die > in > GoF. > > > 7. At the end of OoP, will Fudge be the Minister > of > > Magic? > > No. Voldemort will have his puppet regime > installed, > probably with Lucius as its MoM. > > > 8. At the end of OoP, will Neville be the same > > forgetful boy, or > > will he have changed in some way? > > I think there are some further traumas concerning > Neville's family on the horizon. I think he will > ultimately prove to be very brave, although I don't > know if I think he'll be any less clumsy. > > > 9. At the end of OoP, will Sirius have cleared > his > > name? > > I'm in the "no, I don't think so" camp. I don't > think > he'll be in the clear until the end. > > > 10. Will Harry and Voldemort have a > confrontation? > > No. Dumbledore and Voldemort will and Dumbledore > will > be killed. > > > 11. Of the following magical things, which will a > > character use > > or confront: pensieve, veritaserum, boggart, > > Marauder's Map, > > whomping willow, polyjuice potion, nifflers, > > portkeys, rememberall, > > floo > > powder, time turner, sneakoscope, foe glass, > secrecy > > sensor, > > knight bus. > > Pensieve, veritaserum, Marauder's Map (it's just so > darn *useful*), rememberall (there just *has* to be > some significance to it!), floo powder, foe glass. > > > 12. Will there be Quiddich at Hogwarts? > > Bring back the Quidditch!!! > > > If so, who will be the Gryffindor Keeper? > > Ron because it's his time to shine. > > > Gryffindor Captain? > > Ginny. :) > > > 13. Will anyone else turn out to be an animagus? > > Who? > > No. But we'll learn something about McGonagall. > > > 14. Who is Mundungus Fletcher? > > I'm with Alora, who said: > > "He's going to be like Obi Wan. Remember in "Star > Wars" when Uncle Owen told Luke, "That one's just a > crazy old man." That's Mundungus. He looks and acts > crazy, but I bet he's a lean, mean fighting machine > when it comes right down to it." > > > 15. Will Wormtail use his silver hand in an > > important way? > > Yes. He'll melt it down and use it to make a bust > of > his long-lost, unrequited love, Lily. > > Mwahahahahaha! Oh, sorry, did I laugh at that? :) > Guess I'm not much of a believer in the Snape loves > Lily (LOLLIPOPS, is that right?) or Pettigrew loves > Lily theories. :) > > ~Nicole > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! News - Today's headlines > http://news.yahoo.com > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com From skelkins at attbi.com Wed Sep 18 02:48:09 2002 From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 02:48:09 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Canon Basis For Predictions and Speculation Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44141 Derby time again! Hi, all. While we're all speculating on the possible future of HP, just a quick reminder that speculations on future plot events, like all other forms of commentary here on HPfGU, must be in some way anchored by the canon. Extrapolations are just fine -- indeed, that's the time-honored way to form hypotheses about what might happen next in the books -- but in order to keep things on-topic, we do ask that just like in math class, you show your work. In other words, when expressing an opinion about what you think might happen in OoP, please explain your reasoning with some reference either to the books themselves or to interviews with the author. For example, the statement "I think that it would be great if Harry were to start work on learning the Animagus transformation in the next book!" does not really meet our content guidelines, because it is not rooted in canon. It is merely an expression of preference and makes no canon point. It would therefore be best sent to OT-Chatter. If, on the other hand, you gave your reasons for thinking that the series so far points to this a likely plot development (Harry's father was an Animagus, and Harry has inherited many of James' other talents; the word "Phoenix" in the title of the fifth book hints that transformation may be a major theme of the novel; etc.), then the speculation would be rooted in canon and therefore appropriate to the main list. As always, please also use the SHIP prefix in the subject line when discussing or speculating about romantic relationships between the characters. For further information, you can always check out our Humongous BigFile, which contains our list rules. You can get there through: www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Thanks for helping to keep this thread on-topic. Now, off to the races! Elkins Magical Moderator Team From nplyon at yahoo.com Wed Sep 18 02:58:53 2002 From: nplyon at yahoo.com (Nicole L.) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 19:58:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New Question and Answer Thing In-Reply-To: <1032290042.2165.84234.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20020918025853.26157.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44142 > > Message: 15 > Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 15:55:20 -0000 > From: "Fyre Wood" > Subject: New Question and Answer thing > > Okay, I've read a few posts asking for a new > question and answer > thing, so here we go =) > > 1.Do you think we'll ever go inside an Arithmacy > class or perhaps any > other classes we have yet to see? My vote is for Arithmancy and Astronomy. Why? Because Hermione loves Arithmancy and I love Astronomy and think it's gotten short shrift. :) > > 2. Do any of the pets in Harry Potter seem like > they're not *really* > pets. Crookshanks and Fawkes > > 3. Name you favorite new organization with letters > (Ie: N.I.N.E= > Neville is not Evil) and try to come up with your > own. I've been thinking about this one ever since I saw NINE: DINE (Draco Is Not Evil). My other fave is BUTTERFLIES, of which I am a proud member! Oh, and PRATTLESNAKES is a funny acronmy, although I do not subscriber to that particular theory. I also like CUNNING CHICK'S REVENGE, which was invented by Lilac and acronymed by yours truly. :) Cho *is* Ever-So-Evil. > > 4. Will Draco ever stop being oh so evil? Yes, see DINE. :) No, I think Draco is a twerp. (Sorry, Fyre Wood!) > > 5. Predictions on the final chapter of book 7? Harry, Ron, and Hermione all live because I will be mad if *any* of them die!! Oh, and Sirius will be cleared and Lupin cured of his lycanthropy and they will all live happily ever after. Hey, I can't help it. I think they *deserve* it after all the trauma they've all been through! > > 6. Ron and Hermione--Will they hook up? *Definitely.* They're meant for each other. > > 7. What's the deal with Wizard money? Does it > collect interest? Why > is it so darn big and heavy? Why not paper money > instead of coins? Yes, it collects interest at Gringotts. Why is it so big? I guess wizards and witches can always put a shrinking charm on it. Seems impractical otherwise. > > 8. If you could play any Quidditch possition, what > would it be? Why? > Which team? I would not play Quidditch because I do not relish the thought of broken bones. Call me a wimp, if you will. :) > > 9. Name a character who is going to have the most > change in his/her > characterization between books 5-7, and explain what > changes might > happen. The house elves because Hermione will free them and they will have to learn how to deal with the world. Oh, and I think Neville will change a lot as well. > > 10. What new flavors of Bertie Bott's beans would > you like to eat? Hot Fudge Sundae, Arby's Jamocha Shake, and Cookies 'N' Cream Ice Cream. ~Nicole, who isn't slamming Fyre Wood for liking Draco, although she *is* puzzled by it. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com From kellybroughton at yahoo.com Wed Sep 18 03:25:09 2002 From: kellybroughton at yahoo.com (kelly broughton) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 20:25:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Student list question... and a questio In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020918032509.82394.qmail@web21109.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44143 > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "nyarth_meow" wrote: > > Interestingly, whichever symbol means half-blood, there's half- > bloods > > in Slytherin (look at Bulstrode and Goyle - different symbols). > > I've always wondered whether or not muggle-borns get sorted into > > Slyth - some people assume they aren't. > --- hickengruendler wrote: > That means Goyle is the halfblood. But so was Voldemort himself. I > suppose Slytherin makes a difference between muggle born and half > blood. > > Hickengruendler > Always remember: the Sorting Hat wanted to put Harry, a wizard whose mother was muggle-born, into Slytherin. Harry is neither muggle-born nor half blood... what IS he? -kel __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com From kellybroughton at yahoo.com Wed Sep 18 03:48:56 2002 From: kellybroughton at yahoo.com (kelly broughton) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 20:48:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:[HP4Grownups)OT Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020918034856.72335.qmail@web21110.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44144 --- Gail Bohacek wrote: > Hey guys...I don't know how off-topic this question is, but I've got > this > bet going on down at work here and I need somebody to help me out... > > Where in the books does Dumbledore tell Harry that "Scars come in handy" > and > that he himself has a scar on his knee that looks like the London > Underground? I remember reading it but, gosh darn, I don't know where. > I > was *sure* it was in CoS, but I've just went through it to no avail. > I'm > just now skimming through PoA. Am I missing something here? > > Thanx > > -Gail B. > Someone has probrably already answered this by now, but here goes: Dumbledore actually tells this to McGonagall, on page 15 of the first chapter of PS (US edition;1999): "Dumbledore and Professor McGonagall bent forward over the blundle of blankets. Inside, just visible, was a baby boy, fast asleep. Under a tuft of jet-black hair over his forehead they could see a curiously shaped cut, lke a bold of lighting. "Is that where-?" whispered Professor McGonagall. "Yes," said Dumbledore. "He'll have that scar forever." "Couldn't you do something about it, Dumbledore?" "Even if I could, I wouldn't. Scars can come in handy. I have one myself above my left knee that is a perfect map of the London Underground. Well- give him here, Hagrid- we'd better get this over with." -kel __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com From olivia at rocketbandit.com Wed Sep 18 04:29:28 2002 From: olivia at rocketbandit.com (Olivia) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 00:29:28 -0400 Subject: Snape and Quirrell/Voldemort Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44145 As always, apologies if this has been disucussed before. I'm still, still, still making my way through the archives. They're inspiring and thought-provoking and I should be finished in about three years. But on with my question... I was rewatching bits of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone, (This isn't a movie question, I promise.) and something caught my attention that I hadn't thought of before. Since Professor Quirrell actually had Voldemort living inside of him, specifically kind of hanging off the back of his head, didn't Voldemort hear everything Snape said to him? At the end of Sorcerer's Stone Voldemort is hearing everything Harry says -- lying about what he sees in the Mirror of Erised. So, wouldn't Voldemort hear Snape threatening Quirrell? Doesn't that incriminate Snape and endanger his double agent status? Voldemort hears Snape bullying Quirrell around, threatening him about going after the Sorcerer's Stone, wouldn't that get the Dark Lord a little angry that one of his Death Eaters is standing in his way? Or does Snape have really good timing and only catches Quirrell when Voldemort is off in the Forrest swigging Unicorn blood? It's possible, but it seems unlikely. Also, can some of this lead back to the end of Goblet of Fire when Voldemort is going on about the Death Eater that went astray? I know the list has gone back and forth over who that Death Eater could be, but if Voldemort heard Snape verbally abusing Quirrell and trying to protect the stone from him, when he clearly knew why Quirrell was after it, isn't it possible that Voldemort considered him lost forever? Maybe that's what Snape's mission was at the end of GoF. Ah, I'm running out of steam. Time for me to get some sleep, but I'd love to hear what people think. And if it has been discussed before, please, by all means, point me in the right direction so I can sort this all out in my mush-like head. Olivia :) From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com Wed Sep 18 05:29:43 2002 From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 22:29:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New Q/A Thing Message-ID: <20020918053006.6595.qmail@web40310.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44146 From: "Fyre Wood" Subject: New Question and Answer thing "Okay, I've read a few posts asking for a new question and answer thing, so here we go =)" 1.Do you think we'll ever go inside an Arithmacy class or perhaps any other classes we have yet to see? We might see the Astronomy tower, without a teacher there, late at night...(wink, wink, nudge nudge, say no more, say no more!) 2. Do any of the pets in Harry Potter seem like they're not *really* pets. Trevor, definitely. Perhaps Hedwig 3. Name your favorite new organization with letters (Ie: N.I.N.E= Neville is not Evil) and try to come up with your own. LOCKHART (Lockhart! Oh, Conceited Knave...Handsome and Always Treacherous) I came up with the first 4 words, Nicole the rest. A group who enjoy laughing at him. He's not hard on the eyes while you're laughing at him, either, so it's good entertainment all around! No, we wouldn't trust him any more than we could throw him. We'll watch him through the one-way window of his padded room at St. Mungo's, and then he won't be allowed a wand after that. 4. Will Draco ever stop being oh so evil? I think it would take some big life-changing event for that to happen, such as his mother being killed by Voldemort for punishment to him or his father. But I hope he stays ever-so-evil, and gets even more evil, or he won't be a good nemesis to Harry. 5. Predictions on the final chapter of book 7? I like the theory that Harry sacrifices himself, which ultimately kills Voldemort, but because Harry does it out of love for his friends/family, he is "resurrected" again. And then all the good dead people are resurrected as well, and they all live happily ever after. Oh, wait...that's Disney's version. 6. Ron and Hermione--Will they hook up? I hope so. All that tension between them should ease up some once they "hook up". I predict that they are quiet about their relationship in front of Harry so as not to make him feel left out or jealous of their happiness. 7. What's the deal with Wizard money? Does it collect interest? Why is it so darn big and heavy? Why not paper money instead of coins? Good point, Fyre. I think the Goblins are the only ones gaining interest. They can alway use a good shrinking and weightless charm for the big, heavy coins. Remember, their money is actual gold, silver and bronze, not silver plated coins and paper that only represent the real gold. It must be real cool to hold coins of solid precious medal. Who'd want paper when you could have the real thing? 8. If you could play any Quidditch possition, what would it be? Why? Which team? I think I'd like beater... I could get out any frustrations by knocking the snot out of those bludgers. Very theraputic. No team; just a good pick-up game at home with friends and family would be fine with me. 9. Name a character who is going to have the most change in his/her characterization between books 5-7, and explain what changes might happen. I think we'll see more growth from Ginny. We've started to see her outgrow her awkwardness around Harry in book 4. I think Harry will notice that although she is nice to him, she has stopped blushing around him and she can have an actual conversation with him. He might even be a little sad to lose her wide-eyed, red-faced admiration, but he'll tell himself he's glad it's over. I think Harry will get to know her personality and come to appreciate her as a friend. Maybe he'll develop feelings for her more than friendship, maybe not. But it won't matter to her; she cares for him as a friend, but won't die if he never likes her as more. She'll be focused on herself as an individual, growing up and developing her magical power. I think she has an important part to play in the upcoming struggle ahead, and I think it has something to do to the life-debt she has to Harry. Maybe that's why we hardly know anything about her from the first four books. We've spent more "reading time" with Bill and Charlie than Ginny, and they don't even live at home! There might be a reason for that that JKR will (hopefully) be forthcoming with in book 5. Oops, I'm sorry...didn't notice I was standing on the Ginny soapbox...I'll step down now......Oh, one more thing ...for those "Ginny Haters" out there, I don't understand how someone can hate another without really knowing them. Okay, now I'm really done. 10. What new flavors of Bertie Bott's beans would you like to eat? I always liked how you could combine 2-3 Jelly Belly's to make a whole new flavor (remember the little recipe charts that would tell you which to combine...I can't think of an example right now), so I think Bertie should design beans that combine these 2-3 flavors in a way that creates the whole flavor in one bean. Maybe chocolate chip cookie-dough ice cream would be nice...but it would have to tast JUST like Ben and Jerry's. Lilac (who likes filking better than posting because she tends to say something stupid and then gets lots of negative attention. With filks, you can pretty much say what you want and you get very little, if any, feedback!) ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* "Tut, tut --- hardly any of you remembered that my favorite color is *lilac*. I say so in Year with the Yeti." --Gilderoy Lockhart, COS --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com Wed Sep 18 05:32:09 2002 From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 22:32:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New Q/A Thing Message-ID: <20020918053209.6927.qmail@web40310.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44147 From: "Fyre Wood" Subject: New Question and Answer thing "Okay, I've read a few posts asking for a new question and answer thing, so here we go =)" 1.Do you think we'll ever go inside an Arithmacy class or perhaps any other classes we have yet to see? We might see the Astronomy tower, without a teacher there, late at night...(wink, wink, nudge nudge, say no more, say no more!) 2. Do any of the pets in Harry Potter seem like they're not *really* pets. Trevor, definitely. Perhaps Hedwig 3. Name your favorite new organization with letters (Ie: N.I.N.E= Neville is not Evil) and try to come up with your own. LOCKHART (Lockhart! Oh, Conceited Knave...Handsome and Always Treacherous) I came up with the first 4 words, Nicole the rest. A group who enjoy laughing at him. He's not hard on the eyes while you're laughing at him, either, so it's good entertainment all around! No, we wouldn't trust him any more than we could throw him. We'll watch him through the one-way window of his padded room at St. Mungo's, and then he won't be allowed a wand after that. 4. Will Draco ever stop being oh so evil? I think it would take some big life-changing event for that to happen, such as his mother being killed by Voldemort for punishment to him or his father. But I hope he stays ever-so-evil, and gets even more evil, or he won't be a good nemesis to Harry. 5. Predictions on the final chapter of book 7? I like the theory that Harry sacrifices himself, which ultimately kills Voldemort, but because Harry does it out of love for his friends/family, he is "resurrected" again. And then all the good dead people are resurrected as well, and they all live happily ever after. Oh, wait...that's Disney's version. 6. Ron and Hermione--Will they hook up? I hope so. All that tension between them should ease up some once they "hook up". I predict that they are quiet about their relationship in front of Harry so as not to make him feel left out or jealous of their happiness. 7. What's the deal with Wizard money? Does it collect interest? Why is it so darn big and heavy? Why not paper money instead of coins? Good point, Fyre. I think the Goblins are the only ones gaining interest. They can alway use a good shrinking and weightless charm for the big, heavy coins. Remember, their money is actual gold, silver and bronze, not silver plated coins and paper that only represent the real gold. It must be real cool to hold coins of solid precious medal. Who'd want paper when you could have the real thing? 8. If you could play any Quidditch position, what would it be? Why? Which team? I think I'd like beater... I could get out any frustrations by knocking the snot out of those bludgers. Very therapeutic. No team; just a good pick-up game at home with friends and family would be fine with me. 9. Name a character who is going to have the most change in his/her characterization between books 5-7, and explain what changes might happen. I think we'll see more growth from Ginny. We've started to see her outgrow her awkwardness around Harry in book 4. I think Harry will notice that although she is nice to him, she has stopped blushing around him and she can have an actual conversation with him. He might even be a little sad to lose her wide-eyed, red-faced admiration, but he'll tell himself he's glad it's over. I think Harry will get to know her personality and come to appreciate her as a friend. Maybe he'll develop feelings for her more than friendship, maybe not. But it won't matter to her; she cares for him as a friend, but won't die if he never likes her as more. She'll be focused on herself as an individual, growing up and developing her magical power. I think she has an important part to play in the upcoming struggle ahead, and I think it has something to do to the life-debt she has to Harry. Maybe that's why we hardly know anything about her from the first four books. We've spent more "reading time" with Bill and Charlie than Ginny, and they don't even live at home! There might be a reason for that that JKR will (hopefully) be forthcoming with in book 5. Oops, I'm sorry...didn't notice I was standing on the Ginny soapbox...I'll step down now......Oh, one more thing ...for those "Ginny Haters" out there, I don't understand how someone can hate another without really knowing them. Okay, now I'm really done. 10. What new flavors of Bertie Bott's beans would you like to eat? I always liked how you could combine 2-3 Jelly Belly's to make a whole new flavor (remember the little recipe charts that would tell you which to combine...I can't think of an example right now), so I think Bertie should design beans that combine these 2-3 flavors in a way that creates the whole flavor in one bean. Maybe chocolate chip cookie-dough ice cream would be nice...but it would have to taste JUST like Ben and Jerry's. Lilac (who likes filking better than posting because she tends to say something stupid and then gets lots of negative attention. With filks, you can pretty much say what you want and you get very little, if any, feedback!) ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* "Tut, tut --- hardly any of you remembered that my favorite color is *lilac*. I say so in Year with the Yeti." --Gilderoy Lockhart, COS --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From millergal8 at aol.com Wed Sep 18 05:55:12 2002 From: millergal8 at aol.com (millergal8 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 01:55:12 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape and Quirrell/Voldemort Message-ID: <11c.17338730.2ab96f40@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44148 In a message dated 9/17/02 9:33:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time, olivia at rocketbandit.com writes: << So, wouldn't Voldemort hear Snape threatening Quirrell? Doesn't that incriminate Snape and endanger his double agent status? >> Well, even if Snape did luck out, his days as a double agent are over anyway. my books are currently on loan so I am just going to wing this so forgive me if I am off a bit somewhere. While Harry is looking into DD's pensieve, he sees karkaroff's "trial" where he is naming off other prominent DE's. He names Snape, at which point, DD stands up and announces to the room that Snape is a spy for him (DD). This statement pretty much negates Snapes usefullness as a spy, considering the public (most prominently, Rita Skeeter) was allowed to be present. As for who V'mort meant when he referred to the traitor DE, I am almost positive he meant Snape. I am basing this on the above arguement, that DD blew Snapes cover wide open, how could v'mort not know that Snape had turned? My question is, why in the world would DD do this? I know the hearing was after V'morts downfall, but it still would have been handy to have an "inside guy" to try and get the DE's that got off. Plus, I think that even then, DD was smart enough to know that v'mort was only temporarily gone. Christy From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 18 06:46:11 2002 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 06:46:11 -0000 Subject: Snape's job In-Reply-To: <4F705D4B.2F0AF810.0290C41F@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44149 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., sugarkadi at a... wrote: > Sirius Kase wrote: > > What you have posted is closest to what I believe, I think that > > prior to Harry's first year, Quirrel was at Hogwarts but not in > > the role of DADA instructor. So Snape misses out on the DADA > > appointment a minimum of 4 times. > > Katey replied: > There's something in relation to Snape that I've been thinking about for a while and I'll post it now. And I apologize if it's been discussed before, I'm fairly new to the list. > > Do we really know that Snape wants the DADA job? I don't remember reading that anywhere, so if I've missed it just tell me and that will mess up my whole theory, but it's all good. Percy says everyone "knows" he wants the job. Often what everyone knows is not the truth(aka gossip). > > My point is, that Snape has had a reason to dislike all the DADA teachers besides the fact that they have the DADA job. Anyone else have thoughts on this? > > ~Katey There is some canon support for the idea that Snape *doesn't* want the DADA job. In CoS when The Trio and Hagrid are discussing Lockhart, Hermione says: "Professor Dumbledore obviously thought he was the best man for the job -" and Hagrid replies: "He was the *on'y* man for the job. ... An' I mean the *on'y* one. " [CoS p. 88 UK paperback] This strongly suggests that Lockhart was the *only* person to apply for the job, which suggests in turn that Snape does not want the job and is known by Dumbledore [and the entire staff, including Hagrid ] not to want the job (otherwise, given the evidence in PoA that Snape *can* teach DADA, I think Dumbledore would have asked him to put in an application). Besides, Snape is an ex-DE, and its been argued before on this board that he's eaten up by guilt for the things he's done as a DE. Can you imagine his feelings at having to teach DADA? Looking at trusting, innocent student faces, as you try and teach them to defend themselves against curses you've really used on people... possibly even on their parents or grandparents... Urrgh! No, somehow I *don't* think Snape wants the DADA job. It's just student rumour, possibly fueled by his substituting for the DADA teacher on occasion (before Harry arrived) and showing how well he knows the subject (though slightly weak on the geography of dark creatures [grin] - see FBAWTFT) From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 18 07:15:50 2002 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 07:15:50 -0000 Subject: Snape and Quirrell/Voldemort In-Reply-To: <11c.17338730.2ab96f40@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44150 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., millergal8 at a... wrote: > In a message dated 9/17/02 9:33:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > olivia at r... writes: > > << So, wouldn't Voldemort hear Snape threatening Quirrell? Doesn't > thatincriminate Snape and endanger his double agent status? >> > Christy replied: > Well, even if Snape did luck out, his days as a double agent are > over anyway. my books are currently on loan so I am just going to > wing this so forgive me if I am off a bit somewhere. While Harry >is looking into DD's pensieve, he sees karkaroff's "trial" where he > is naming off other prominent DE's. He names Snape, at which > point, DD stands up and announces to the room that Snape is a spy > for him (DD). This statement pretty much negates Snapes > usefullness as a spy, considering the public (most prominently, > Rita Skeeter) was allowed to be present. > As for who V'mort meant when he referred to the traitor DE, I am > almost positive he meant Snape. I am basing this on the above > arguement, that DD blew Snapes cover wide open, how could v'mort > not know that Snape had turned? > My question is, why in the world would DD do this? I know the >hearing was after V'morts downfall, but it still would have been > handy to have an "inside guy" to try and get the DE's that got > off. Plus, I think that even then, DDwas smart enough to know that > v'mort was only temporarily gone. > > Christy I agree. Snape's cover has been comprehensively blown. It might still be possible for Snape to persuade Voldemort that he's willing to serve him again - if Voldemort will only destroy that wretched Harry Potter who Snape hates so much [grins evilly and pauses to listen to the sound of a MAGIC DISHWASHER in the distance]. The clue why DD would blow Snape's cover is in the fine print of the books - when you get them back off loan you will see that Dumbledore says "I have given evidence *before* on this matter" and Crouch says "Snape has been cleared by this Council". [GoF p512 and 513 UK hardback] So Snape probably had his very own trial *before* Karkaroff's trial, that Harry *didn't* see in the Pensieve [because it would have revealed too many future plot points, perhaps? :-)]. Or at the least, he was in such danger of Azkaban that Dumbledore was forced to reveal to the Ministry that Snape was actually spying for him. In Karkaroff's trial scene [same pages] it's revealed just before this conversation that the Ministry was riddled with DE spies. After telling the Ministry, Dumbledore could give Rita Skeeter an exclusive interview about Snape's spying career and still not tell Voldemort anything he doesn't already know [grin]. Pip (who has to get back to revising now. Darn it. HP is *much* more interesting). From pen at pensnest.co.uk Wed Sep 18 07:57:04 2002 From: pen at pensnest.co.uk (Pen Robinson) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 08:57:04 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] School Year Length In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <38E7D5EC-CADC-11D6-8511-0030654DED6A@pensnest.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 44151 On Tuesday, September 17, 2002, at 09:10 , Mark D. wrote: > Help me out with a question for my fanfic. Whayt is the school year > length at Hogwarts (supposedly based on English school years)? > > The timelines at the Harry Lexicon have the Hogwart's Express always > leaving on Sept. 1 no matter what day of the week (despite assigning > the calendars of 1991 - 95 to the first four books) and ending either > the last week of June, or in the case of GoF as late as the first > week in July. > > Do English schools stay in session that long? It would mean a summer > holiday of barely 2 months! > OK. My children go to a state school and their holidays are as follows: Autumn Term: early September - Friday before Christmas, with a half-term break of one week in late October. Christmas holidays - 2 weeks Spring Term: early January - mid-April (this will vary as the date of Easter varies) with half-term break mid-Feb. Easter holidays - 2 weeks Summer Term: end April to twenty-somethingth July, half term break at end of May. Summer holidays: approx six weeks. Private schools have a slight variation on the above theme, in that the main holidays are usually longer (particularly the summer holidays, which will be 8 - 9 weeks), and the half-term break is basically a long weekend (Fri - Mon/Tues). Hogwarts does not seem to have half-term breaks at all. Can't help you with September the first, because it is Just Odd. Perhaps JKR has adopted the Cantabrigian meaning of 'Term' in this instance, and it merely means the day on which you must be present at school. Pen From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 18 13:36:49 2002 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 06:36:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Snape and Quirrell/Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020918133649.98733.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44152 --- olivia at r... writes: > So, wouldn't Voldemort hear Snape threatening Quirrell? Doesn't > thatincriminate Snape and endanger his double agent status? Not necessarily. Snape was very careful to be ambiguous whenever he was talking to Quirrel. This worked in making Harry positive that it was Snape himself after the Stone, but it *also* worked to give Snape wiggle room. While I think he certainly knew Quirrel was working for Voldemort, and possibly about his seriously bad hair day as well, Snape can make a very plausible argument for *not* knowing. Since Quirrel never came out and said, "Oy, Severus, I'm working with the Dark Lord on this one, so cut me some slack!", Snape can say that he thought Quirrel wanted the Stone for himself. Snape can also argue that he was protecting the Stone either in order to keep his cover as Dumbledore's man, OR that he was keeping the Stone safe until he could find Voldie to give it to! --- Pip wrote: > I agree. Snape's cover has been comprehensively blown. It might still > be possible for Snape to persuade Voldemort that he's willing to > serve him again - if Voldemort will only destroy that wretched Harry > Potter who Snape hates so much [grins evilly and pauses to listen to > the sound of a MAGIC DISHWASHER in the distance]. I beg to differ. I don't think Snape's cover has been blown at all. What if Snape's role (or at least what he convinces Voldie his role was) is a triple agent? Ie, someone who was spying on one side while pretending to spy on the ther while pretending to spy on the first! Maybe part of the plan was to make Dumbledore THINK Snape was his spy all along, with Snape using that trusted position to do even MORE for the Dark Side. Even if that wasn't the plan all along, all Snape has to do is some artful groveling and toss in the explanation, "I HAD to make that old fool think I was his agent, or he would never have kept me in this trusted position at Hogwarts where I can keep spying for you. Can you believe he actually *trusts* me? [mad cackling]" Just saying, there are many possible explanations, and in true MAGIC DISHWASHER fashion, Dumbledore had more things up his sleeve at that trial than we know about. ;) Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com From crussell at arkansas.net Wed Sep 18 14:41:50 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 14:41:50 -0000 Subject: Snape's "mind set?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44153 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "i_am_erasmas" wrote: > I love the depth of Snape's character, but I think he is a > reprehensible person. Probably very brave, definitely cunning, likely > admirable and deserving respect for the sacrifices he has made and > will continue to make, but how do people actually like him? > Now me: I completely agree with your assessment. Snape is a very interesting yet completely reprehensible person. This complexity of nature is a hallmark of superior writing. If Snape was your stock-character bad guy, we would soon grow tired of him. His cruelties towards the Trio and others does make my skin crawl. However given the great joy that JKR takes in throwing her readers for a loop, I would not be suprised to discover-later on in the series, more positive aspects to Snape's character-but then again, maybe not-only JKR knows for sure. > Erasmus says: > The one on one interview with Harry -- deliberately taunting Harry > about James. Whether he has a good reason to hate James or not, what > purpose could this possibly serve. Bear in mind that he is talking to > a 13 year old orphan boy about his dead parents. Now me: I admit I find this troubling also. I too have a hard time figuring out the purpose for this type of cruelty. IMO, this is simply a matter of taking cheap shots at a more or less helpless victim- helpless, that is for the time being. Is there a purpose in Harry's being "re-assured" of Snape's hatred? Only you true-blue Snape fans could answer that question-personally, I just do not see it. Erasmus says: > Mocking a young girl about a physical attribute that she's sensitive > about. This isn't severety, or favouritism, it is cruelty, with no > purpose but the joy of seeing a child hurt. > Now me: And one has to wonder why he targets Hermione? Okay, she is a little know-it-all (I love Hermione, by the way)-but really, IMO, the only problem he really has with her is that she is obviously Harry's good friend. In this instance, however, there was an audience-the Slytherins, including Malfoy-who have turned Hermione into their mudblood symbol of abuse. If (and let me emphasize-IF) Snape is walking the tightrope between Voldemort and Dumbledore, keeping Lucius Malfoy's son content could serve a purpose. Just trying to play Devil's advocate here. Please do not take this the wrong way, Snape lovers or haters for that matter. IMHO, sometimes when a writer creates such a completely loathsome character such as Snape (boos from Snape lovers)-almost demanding you despise them- there is something else she is trying to convey. I personally believe that JKR is too good a writer to create such a dastardly character and not have some purpose for him- other than making us hate him (boos from Snape haters). bugaloo37-who-if no one has figured it out yet- simply cannot stand Snape or Draco From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Sep 18 14:57:01 2002 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 14:57:01 -0000 Subject: Is Harry a pureblood? Was "a question" In-Reply-To: <20020918032509.82394.qmail@web21109.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44154 kel:"Always remember: the Sorting Hat wanted to put Harry, a wizard whose mother was muggle-born, into Slytherin. Harry is neither muggle- born nor half blood... what IS he?" If a "pureblood" is a witch or wizard whose parents were a witch and a wizard, then Harry is a first-generation pureblood. To go any farther than that is getting into the realm of the Jim Crow laws or the Aryan laws of Nazi Germany. It looks like that's how people like Draco see it, too, because he never called *Harry* a "Mudblood," and was willing to befriend him, at first. From lupinesque at yahoo.com Wed Sep 18 17:16:23 2002 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 17:16:23 -0000 Subject: Is Harry a pureblood? according to whom? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44155 Jim wrote: > If a "pureblood" is a witch or wizard whose parents were a witch and > a wizard, then Harry is a first-generation pureblood. To go any > farther than that is getting into the realm of the Jim Crow laws or > the Aryan laws of Nazi Germany. > > It looks like that's how people like Draco see it, too, because he > never called *Harry* a "Mudblood," and was willing to befriend him, > at first. Draco just hasn't worked his way up to Jim Crow level, in which "a drop of Muggle blood" means you're no better than a Muggle. Give him time. Voldemort, in contrast, comes within a hair of calling Lily, who was indubitably a witch, a Muggle: "You stand, Harry Potter, upon the remains of my late father," he hissed softly. "A Muggle and a fool . . . very like your dear mother." (GF 33) One wonders, then, what he would call Harry. Amy Z ------------------------------------------------- "Your father thinks very highly of Mad-Eye Moody," said Mrs. Weasley sternly. "Yeah, well, Dad collects plugs, doesn't he," said Fred quietly, as Mrs. Weasley left the room. "Birds of a feather." -HP and the Goblet of Fire ------------------------------------------------- From fyredriftwood at yahoo.com Wed Sep 18 17:17:27 2002 From: fyredriftwood at yahoo.com (Fyre Wood) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 17:17:27 -0000 Subject: New Question and Answer Thing In-Reply-To: <20020918025853.26157.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44156 I have decided to answer my own post. > > > > Okay, I've read a few posts asking for a new > > question and answer > > thing, so here we go =) > > > > 1.Do you think we'll ever go inside an Arithmacy > > class or perhaps any > > other classes we have yet to see? I honestly want to see an arithmacy class or perhaps an astronomy class. Something other than the four classes we've already seen would be nice. > > 2. Do any of the pets in Harry Potter seem like > > they're not *really* > > pets. There's something to Fawks. I don't know what it is about him, but one thing is for sure: He ain't normal ;) > > 3. Name you favorite new organization with letters > > (Ie: N.I.N.E= > > Neville is not Evil) and try to come up with your > > own. I created N.I.N.E and I'm stickin' to it. > > 4. Will Draco ever stop being oh so evil? Nicole said: No, I think Draco is a twerp. Sorry, Fyre Wood!) I say: It's okay. He will always have that mean streak about him, however I'd like to see that team up between Draco and Harry that's rumoured. > > 5. Predictions on the final chapter of book 7? Harry and Voldy fight, and Harry sacrifices himself to save everyone. Hermione was the only one to survive, since Ron went to the dark side and was killed by an unknown person. > > 6. Ron and Hermione--Will they hook up? yes, before Ron dies. Sorry, the Weasleys are evil. > > 7. What's the deal with Wizard money? Does it > > collect interest? Why > > is it so darn big and heavy? Why not paper money > > instead of coins? I still think that wizard money doesn't collect interest, but rather just sits in a vault for all eturnity. It's big because it's funny-- meaning that it makes for great dinner converstaion. Paper money would be better--but hey, I don't write the books. > > 8. If you could play any Quidditch possition, what > > would it be? Why? > > Which team? Beater. My house team would be Slytherin. My professional team is the Foulmouth Falcons, or however it's spelled. > > 9. Name a character who is going to have the most > > change in his/her > > characterization between books 5-7, and explain what > > changes might > > happen. Neville is going to become a stud.. via working out and learning of his abilities. He just needs a girl to make him feel a little more confident in himself. Once he obtains that, he will do just fine. After all, he had enough guts to attempt to get a date before Harry or Ron. > > 10. What new flavors of Bertie Bott's beans would > > you like to eat? Oatmeal, mint, cookie dough, chocolate chip... okay, now I'm hungry. Nicole also posted: > ~Nicole, who isn't slamming Fyre Wood for liking > Draco, although she *is* puzzled by it. I like Draco because I can identify with him. He is great for comic relief, and he's blatantly in love with our beloved Harry. (Sorry, I'm a Draco/Harry shipper) --Fyre Wood, who has probably opened a can of worms with that last statement. From crussell at arkansas.net Wed Sep 18 17:39:30 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 17:39:30 -0000 Subject: Is Harry a pureblood? Was "a question" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44157 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Ferer" wrote: > If a "pureblood" is a witch or wizard whose parents were a witch and > a wizard, then Harry is a first-generation pureblood. To go any > farther than that is getting into the realm of the Jim Crow laws or > the Aryan laws of Nazi Germany. > > It looks like that's how people like Draco see it, too, because he > never called *Harry* a "Mudblood," and was willing to befriend him, > at first. Apparently, I do not understand the "pureblood", "half- blood", "mudblood" concepts. This is how I understood it: "purebloods" are those who can trace both paternally and maternally their family lineage and find no muggle ancestry-obviously a very difficult thing to do since according to Ron, there are hardly any wizard families that have not intermarried with muggles. Therefore according to this idea, a "half-blood", would be one who could trace only one side-father or mother-and find it "pure" or in other words- muggle-free, i.e., Harry Potter, Tom Riddle. To finish this concept out, a "mudblood" would be a wizard/witch with both parents being Muggles-in other words, no wizard families in their family tree. And as for these "rules" being in the realm of the Aryan/ Nazi laws, I read in an interview yesterday where JKR herself compared Voldemort and his ideas to Hitler and his concept of a master race. She also stated in this same interview that predjudice/bigotry was a central theme of the HP series. As for Draco, I cannot recall that he has ever expressed any contempt for Harry's "half-blood" status or anyone else's "half-blood" status for that matter. He apparently reserves his extreme disdain for "mudbloods" such as Hermione-at least in regards to making judgements based on blood-line purity. He finds other things to taunt Harry about other than his ancestry. bugaloo37 -who loves Harry Potter and the Weasleys for determining Hermione's worth as a person and a friend based on her obvious intelligence and lovingly loyal heart. From gandharvika at hotmail.com Wed Sep 18 17:55:37 2002 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 17:55:37 +0000 Subject: Re[HP4Grownups]I Don't Know Why I Like Him(FILK) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44158 I Don't Know Why I Like Him (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _I Don't Know How To Love Him_ from Andrew Lloyd Webber's _Jesus Christ Superstar_) The confessions of a hopeless Snape fan I don't know why I like him What he does, how he does it It's really strange, must be deranged 'Cause I read his scenes in all the books Over and over again So dark and yet mysterious I don't know, he intrigues me I'm a fan of this Snape man But there are others in Rowland's books Who I should like much more Him, I adore He's not being fair when he screams and shouts Bullying Neville. Chewing Harry out Taking away House points - what's it all about? I think it's rather funny I'm not the only one here Who thinks Snape is really cool How he dealt with Black, back at the Shack Stealing every scene But he's so mean I never thought I'd like this Snape - what's it all about? Yet, if knew him in real life I'd avoid him, I'd be frightened Won't tolerate the way he hates I'd be grossed out by his greasy hair His bad teeth and large nose I just don't know That's how it goes I like him, though -Gail B. who, with all this talk just recently about Snape, couldn't resist...I like the Weasleys, but I REALLY like Snape! I Don't Know Why I Like Him (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _I Don't Know How To Love Him_ from Andrew Lloyd Webber's _Jesus Christ Superstar_) The confessions of a hopeless Snape fan I don't know why I like him What he does, how he does it It's really strange, must be deranged 'Cause I read his scenes in all the books Over and over again So dark and yet mysterious I don't know, he intrigues me I'm a fan of this Snape man There are others in Rowland's books Who I should like much more Him, I adore He's not being fair. When he screams and shouts Bullying Neville. Chewing Harry out Taking away House points - what's it all about? I think it's rather funny I'm not the only one here Who thinks Snape is really cool How he dealt with Black, back at the Shack Stealing every scene But he's so mean I never thought I'd like this Snape - what's it all about? Yet, if knew him in real life I'd avoid him, I'd be frightened Won't tolerate the way he hates I'd be grossed out by his greasy hair His bad teeth and large nose I just don't know That's how it goes I like him, though -Gail B. who, with all this talk just recently about Snape, couldn't resist...I like the Weasleys, but I REALLY like Snape! _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Wed Sep 18 18:20:03 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb P) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 11:20:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Harry a pureblood? according to whom? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020918182003.43796.qmail@web13006.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44159 Amy Z wrote: Jim wrote: > If a "pureblood" is a witch or wizard whose parents were a witch and > a wizard, then Harry is a first-generation pureblood. To go any > farther than that is getting into the realm of the Jim Crow laws or > the Aryan laws of Nazi Germany. > > It looks like that's how people like Draco see it, too, because he > never called *Harry* a "Mudblood," and was willing to befriend him, at first. Draco just hasn't worked his way up to Jim Crow level, in which "a drop of Muggle blood" means you're no better than a Muggle. Give him time. Voldemort, in contrast, comes within a hair of calling Lily, who was indubitably a witch, a Muggle: "You stand, Harry Potter, upon the remains of my late father," he hissed softly. "A Muggle and a fool . . . very like your dear mother." (GF 33) I thought at first that it was possible that Tom Riddle, when he was getting his information on Harry and the outside world from Ginny, could have been erroneously told by Ginny that Harry's mother was a Muggle, rather than a Muggle-BORN witch. However, it is true that the Voldemort who has lived through the fifty-odd years since the first opening of the CoS KNOWS that Lily Evans Potter was a witch, so his calling her a Muggle seems to indicate that he thinks Muggle-born magical folk are equivalent to actual Muggles. This is consistent with his world-view in general. However, I do not believe that we should use the world-view of an elitist and a racist to work out terminology in the Potterverse. Elsewhere, there are statements to the effect that Harry, being the son of a witch and a wizard, qualifies for pure-blood status. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From naama2486 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 18 08:47:12 2002 From: naama2486 at yahoo.com (naama2486) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 08:47:12 -0000 Subject: New Question and Answer thing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44160 Fyre Wood wrote: > Okay, I've read a few posts asking for a new question and answer > thing, so here we go =) > 1.Do you think we'll ever go inside an Arithmacy class or perhaps any > other classes we have yet to see? I doubt we'll ever see the inside of an Arithmancy class, since Harry doesn't take Arithmancy and the books are told from Harry's POV. What I'd like to know is how Astronomy classes are like! > 2. Do any of the pets in Harry Potter seem like they're not *really* > pets. Can't see that. I don't think JKR is the type to use the same trick twice. I wonder though, can you be a magical-animalled animagus? (Ie, phoenix?) > 3. Name you favorite new organization with letters (Ie: N.I.N.E= > Neville is not Evil) and try to come up with your own. S.I.G.H - Snape Is a Good guy, Honestly. > 4. Will Draco ever stop being oh so evil? No. Definitely *not* going to happen. > 5. Predictions on the final chapter of book 7? Harry's going to die. And he'll take Voldemort with him. > 6. Ron and Hermione--Will they hook up? Yes. I bet it's gonna happen during the summer. I wonder how it will affect Harry? > 7. What's the deal with Wizard money? Does it collect interest? Why > is it so darn big and heavy? Why not paper money instead of coins? Because metals look better, and it wouldn't be fun to have a Stone that turned any newspaper into a sixpence. It just doesn't work. > 8. If you could play any Quidditch possition, what would it be? Why? > Which team? Chaser. Because it's the most exciting position. Seaker seems too difficult. Gryffindor team, naturally (boy, I hate being banalic... is banalic really a word, or did I just make one up?) > 9. Name a character who is going to have the most change in his/her > characterization between books 5-7, and explain what changes might > happen. I think Percy will stop being so pompous. At least, I hope so. Can't explain it, though. > 10. What new flavors of Bertie Bott's beans would you like to eat? Shoe-lace, waste-paper, microchips, Uranus ;-), moderator-flavoured beans! Imagine a greasy-hair flavoured beans.. bllaugh... --Naama the New [Fyre- highschool is no better fix... ;-) ] From jen_the_boss at yahoo.com Wed Sep 18 14:46:22 2002 From: jen_the_boss at yahoo.com (Jen) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 14:46:22 -0000 Subject: Survey In-Reply-To: <20020918023504.52307.qmail@web20901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44161 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Nicole L." wrote: > Bad Listie! Bad Listie! (Bangs head against floor). > Forgot to change the subject the last time I sent > this!!! > > > > > 1. What new magical place will we visit? > > > > I like the idea of visiting Azkaban. That would be really interesting. I think we might also see some new secret places in Hogwarts. > > > 2. Are any of the Dursleys wizards? Who? > > > > Nicole, you make me laugh! She wrote "Petunia, Petunia, Petunia!!!!! Oh, did I mention Petunia? :)" I had never considered her a wizard before, but that is genius. > > > > > 3. Identify the next DADA teacher. > > > > I think it is seriously going to be Arablla Figg. She (possibly) was defending Harry from the dark arts for so many years after all. > > > > > 4. Which "beloved" character(s) will die? Any > > > other deaths, > > > and if so, who? > > I think Dumbledore will die (possibly in book 6) although it breaks my heart! I thik maybe Snape, but at the same time, I think it would be interesting for him to be head-master of Hogwarts when Dumbledore dies. (I love Snape- so devious!) I also think Hagrid might die- which would also be very sad. (We must I openly weep every time I read a Harry Potter book?!) > > > > > > > 5. Of Lupin, Sirius, Krum, Fleur, Lockhart, > > Winky, > > > Dobby, Moody, > > > Bagman, Madam Maxime, which characters will have > > > speaking lines in > > > OoP. > > Definitly Lupin, Krum, Winky, Dobby, Bagman and Madam Maxine. Fleur- I don't really enjoy her character, and I don't know where she'll fit in in the next book. Despite the unpleasantness with Cedric in GoF, I still want Harry with Cho Chang. > > > > > 6. At the end of OoP, will Dumbledore be the > > > headmaster? > > > > I hope so. As I said earlier, I think he might die, but I don't think it will happen in the next book. > > > > > 7. At the end of OoP, will Fudge be the Minister > > of > > > Magic? > > > > I agree with Nicole- Voldemort will have a puppet ministry in place. Damn Lucius Malfoy! > > > > > 8. At the end of OoP, will Neville be the same > > > forgetful boy, or > > > will he have changed in some way? > > > > Nevill is most definitly going to step it up in the next book. With all the horrible things going on, everyone is going to have to be braver, and since he is currently the most vulnerable student, I think he has the most room to grow. > > > > > 9. At the end of OoP, will Sirius have cleared > > his > > > name? > > > > No. That probably won't happen till book 7. (As I wipe a tear away for the unfortunate and yet so compassionate Sirius Black) > > > 10. Will Harry and Voldemort have a > > confrontation? > > > > I don't know! It kind of seems unlikely though. > > > 11. Of the following magical things, which will a > > > character use > > > or confront: pensieve, veritaserum, boggart, > > > Marauder's Map, > > > whomping willow, polyjuice potion, nifflers, > > > portkeys, rememberall, > > > floo > > > powder, time turner, sneakoscope, foe glass, > > secrecy > > > sensor, > > > knight bus. > > > > Marauder's Map will be back in full force. Probably the rememberall as well. And the Knight BUs would be an interesting turn- if we do get to go see other areas that aren't Hogwarts (ie Azkaban!!!!!), perhaps this will be the mode of transportation. > > > > > 12. Will there be Quiddich at Hogwarts? > > > > There has to be Quiddich! > > > > > If so, who will be the Gryffindor Keeper? > > > >I love Ron as well. Give the boy a break! > > > Gryffindor Captain? > > > > Harry seems like the likely choice. I don't know if she'd make it anyone else. > > > > > 13. Will anyone else turn out to be an animagus? > > > Who? > > > > I would absolutely die if Hedwig turned out to be someone. No seriously. (I know it seems kind of unlikely, but who saw the Scabbers thing coming?) Do you think it possible that Dumbledore could be an animagus? If James Potter et al can learn to do it, what about Albus? > > > > > 14. Who is Mundungus Fletcher? > > I'm going to copy Nicole: > > I'm with Alora, who said: > > > > "He's going to be like Obi Wan. Remember in "Star > > Wars" when Uncle Owen told Luke, "That one's just a > > crazy old man." That's Mundungus. He looks and acts > > crazy, but I bet he's a lean, mean fighting machine > > when it comes right down to it." > > > > > 15. Will Wormtail use his silver hand in an > > > important way? > > > > I think he may turn. It could come into play there. > > ~~ Jen/ Waiting impatiently for book 5 > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! News - Today's headlines > > http://news.yahoo.com > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! News - Today's headlines > http://news.yahoo.com From mcarlin at ev1.net Wed Sep 18 16:46:57 2002 From: mcarlin at ev1.net (Megan Carlin) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 11:46:57 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] New Question and Answer thing References: <012701c25eb7$b7c28580$609ecdd1@istu757> Message-ID: <003201c25f33$01283be0$2f00a8c0@tom> No: HPFGUIDX 44162 Fyre Wood writes: > 1.Do you think we'll ever go inside an Arithmacy class or perhaps any > other classes we have yet to see? I think that there will always be new classes introduced to us, although I doubt most of them will be gone into in detail. We may perhaps see the Astronomy tower (as it's been mentioned a few times and never explored). There's also the Muggle Studies class, and Ancient Runes that we don't even know who teaches them. > 2. Do any of the pets in Harry Potter seem like they're not *really* > pets. I agree with the majority that says Crookshanks is more than he appears. I have a theory that this particular cat belonged to Arabella Figg once upon a time. Of course I have no canon proof for this, it's just a theory I like to kick around in my head :) > 3. Name you favorite new organization with letters (Ie: N.I.N.E= > Neville is not Evil) and try to come up with your own. I don't know many of the acronym organizations (except N.I.N.E. and L.O.L.L.I.P.O.P). -- T.W.O. (The Weasleys Own) was one a friend came up with in the RPG I play. I tried to come up with one of my own, but face it, I'm not creative enough. Hehehehe. > 4. Will Draco ever stop being oh so evil? I don't think Draco is *evil* persay. I think he's a slimy git, and a spoiled brat, but not evil. > 5. Predictions on the final chapter of book 7? Well if it's really an epilogue, I think it'll recount the aftermath of the "battles" and tell us what the characters plan on doing afterward. > 6. Ron and Hermione--Will they hook up? I say no, still. I think I'm the only one. No I think that what might happen is that Ron never tells Hermione he loves her, until of course he is dying. Oh, yeah, I'm a fan of Ron dying. [sigh] Even though I love the Weasleys. All of them. > 7. What's the deal with Wizard money? Does it collect interest? Why > is it so darn big and heavy? Why not paper money instead of coins? I think it probably does collect interest. After all, why put it in the bank if there's nothing in it for you (except the safety issue). I think wizards like more tangible currency, instead of Muggle paper money and flimsy coins. > 8. If you could play any Quidditch position, what would it be? Why? > Which team? Probably a beater, just because I have a lot of strength for a female, I'm fairly graceful and hey I just like the idea of beating the heck out of stuff with a bat and flying dangerously through the pitch. And the fact that I am in love with George and Fred has...erm...nothing...[coughcough] to do with...it. Yeah, that's it. > 9. Name a character who is going to have the most change in his/her > characterization between books 5-7, and explain what changes might > happen. I'm going to say Ron on this one, just because there's so much that hasn't been said about him. I think JKR is going to explore his jealous side, his affection for Hermione, and his feelings of inadaquecy. (wow I hope I spelled that right) > 10. What new flavors of Bertie Bott's beans would you like to eat? Eat? Chocolate cake, fortune cookie, Dr. Pepper, grape juice, pizza, croissants...wow I could go on all day. [lol] Surveyingly, Megan From crussell at arkansas.net Wed Sep 18 18:27:19 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 18:27:19 -0000 Subject: Is Harry a pureblood? according to whom? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44163 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > Voldemort, in contrast, comes within a hair of calling Lily, > who was indubitably a witch, a Muggle: > > "You stand, Harry Potter, upon the remains of my late father," he > hissed softly. "A Muggle and a fool . . . very like your dear > mother." (GF 33) > > One wonders, then, what he would call Harry. > > Amy Z > I think you are on target (if you will read the post I made after you made yours-you will see how much I agree). There are definitely different levels of predjudice present in HP. Draco representing the less extreme but definitely just as appalling level. The fact that Voldemort "almost" called Lily Potter a muggle shows that even as despicable and revolting as he is, he is obviously following a certain criteria created by himself. In other words, he knows that even though Lily Potter was a mudblood (muggle-born), she was not a muggle in the strictest sense of the word. For anyone who may be confused on this issue, let me try to clarify. Of course, it goes without saying that this is simply a matter of my interpretation of canon. IMO, a muggle has been clearly defined, in Hagrid's words, as a non-magical human-in other words a human with absolutely no magical abilities or magical heritage. A squib, such as Mr. Filch, is one who has a magical heritage but apparently has no magical abilities. A mudblood, on the other hand, is a person with magical abilities but no magical heritage (muggle-BORN,not just plain muggle). I believe Voldemort would put Harry on the same level as himself in regards to heritage. In GoF, Voldemort was continuing to view Harry as similar to himself in this respect, much as Tom Riddle/Voldemort did in CoS. Voldemort obviously considers himself to be a "half-blood" so I believe this is why he sees Harry as being similar to himself. Let's contrast Harry and Voldemort for one moment: Both are orphans, both have a muggle or in Harry's case, a muggle-BORN parent and a pure- blood parent. What is the major difference between the two?(other than the obvious-one is absolutely evil, the other, absolutely not). Voldemort holds his muggle heritage in disdain. He abhors his father in the vilest terms. On the other hand, Harry loves his deceased mother and does not view her muggle-born status as being a detriment to himself. Quite the opposite-he has chosen Hermione, a mudblood like his mother, to be one of his best friends. He loves the Weasleys without even once holding their obvious love of muggles against them. I have said it before and I will probably say it again, JKR has created a parallel universe to our own-with the same problems, such as predjudice based on race and/or wealth. She has shown us the worst and the best of human nature. When a writer can do that with the style and flair that JKR has, she truly deserves all the praise that has been given to her. bugaloo37-who apologizes for this long post and the one before it- this is an important to me, and I love discussing it. From Ali at zymurgy.org Wed Sep 18 18:42:00 2002 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (alhewison) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 18:42:00 -0000 Subject: Is Harry a pureblood? according to whom? In-Reply-To: <20020918182003.43796.qmail@web13006.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44164 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Barb P wrote:: > > "You stand, Harry Potter, upon the remains of my late father," he hissed softly. "A Muggle and a fool . . . very like your dear mother." (GF 33) > > I thought at first that it was possible that Tom Riddle, when he was getting his information on Harry and the outside world from Ginny, could have been erroneously told by Ginny that Harry's mother was a Muggle, rather than a Muggle-BORN witch. However, it is true that the Voldemort who has lived through the fifty-odd years since the first opening of the CoS KNOWS that Lily Evans Potter was a witch, so his calling her a Muggle seems to indicate that he thinks Muggle-born magical folk are equivalent to actual Muggles. This is consistent with his world-view in general. However, I do not believe that we should use the world-view of an elitist and a racist to work out terminology in the Potterverse. Elsewhere, there are statements to the effect that Harry, being the son of a witch and a wizard, qualifies for pure-blood status. There is an interesting section on this in the Lexicon, but I would support the view that Harry is an "Half-Blood" - In Ch 17, CoS Voldemort calls Harry a Half-Blood - when discussing their similarities: they are both half-bloods. Hagrid infers that Harry is a Half-Blood in C 24 GoF when he tells Harry that he would love him to win the TriWizard championship to prove that you don't have to be a Pureblood to do it. I apologise for the lack of link but JKR also called Harry a "Half- Blood" in one of her interviews. Given that she has defined the WW, and the prejudices which accompany it, IMO we are meant to see Harry as a Half-Blood. Ali Who is curious about the name "Lily Evans Potter" - in Brit. speak we would call her Lily Potter nee Evans, unless we knew that she had deliberately kept her maiden name as a middle name. This does happen occasionally. Some women "double-barrow" their surnames, and we would then have Lily Evans-Potter. Most likely though, Lily would simply be Lily Potter. From doffy99 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 18 18:55:22 2002 From: doffy99 at yahoo.com (doffy99) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 18:55:22 -0000 Subject: New Question and Answer Thing In-Reply-To: <20020918025853.26157.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44165 > > From: "Fyre Wood" > > Subject: New Question and Answer thing > > > > Okay, I've read a few posts asking for a new > > question and answer > > thing, so here we go =) > > > > 1.Do you think we'll ever go inside an Arithmacy > > class or perhaps any > > other classes we have yet to see? Yes. We seem to go inside a new class with each book. I think we will be introduced to a new class with each of the remaining books. Possibly one like Arithmancy, but I imagine it will be more along the lines of something we have not yet heard of. > > 2. Do any of the pets in Harry Potter seem like > > they're not *really* > > pets. I don't quite understand this question. None of the "Pets" in HP are exactly JUST pets. They all serve another purpose, with the possible exception of Neville's frog. All the owls serve as messengers as will as, in Harry's case, a confidante and companion. I think we will find that Crookshanks is more than he appears. Hopefully, NOT another villian. > > 3. Name you favorite new organization with letters > > (Ie: N.I.N.E= > > Neville is not Evil) and try to come up with your > > own. No. :) > > 4. Will Draco ever stop being oh so evil? I have to agree with other responses to this. I don't think Draco is "Evil." I think Draco is a rich, spoiled brat. Unlike Others I think he will come across something, probably with Harry, that will definitly soften him towards HH&R and "Mudbloods." I think at some point HH&R will save his skin. I think this will make him realize some of his beleifs are wrong, but it will also set up a Snape/Sirius/James type of situation where Draco will resent the fact that these "Goody-two-shoes" saved him which will lead to animosity but not immediatly. > > 5. Predictions on the final chapter of book 7? Dumbledore will be dead. Hagrid will be alive and will be a full fledged wizard. Harry will survive. Ron will be dead. Hermione will be alive and in mourning. Hermione will become a teacher at Hogwarts. Harry will become a Auror. Not only an auror but a GREAT Auror. > > 6. Ron and Hermione--Will they hook up? See above. Definitly. > > 7. What's the deal with Wizard money? Does it > > collect interest? Why > > is it so darn big and heavy? Why not paper money > > instead of coins? Never really thought about it. > > 8. If you could play any Quidditch possition, what > > would it be? Why? > > Which team? Referee. I'm not coordinated enough to play this game. :) > > 9. Name a character who is going to have the most > > change in his/her > > characterization between books 5-7, and explain what > > changes might > > happen. I'd say Dumbledore will definitly change. he will be dead. As for a living character, I'd say Neville. > > 10. What new flavors of Bertie Bott's beans would > > you like to eat? I don't think I can answer that here. Do they make an ADULT version of Bertie Botts All-Flavored beans? :) -Jeff From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Wed Sep 18 19:04:51 2002 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 19:04:51 -0000 Subject: Is Harry a pureblood? according to whom? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44166 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "alhewison" wrote: > Ali > > Who is curious about the name "Lily Evans Potter" - in Brit. speak we > would call her Lily Potter nee Evans, unless we knew that she had > deliberately kept her maiden name as a middle name. This does happen > occasionally. Some women "double-barrow" their surnames, and we would > then have Lily Evans-Potter. Most likely though, Lily would simply be > Lily Potter. That is a curious Americanism. In recent years, married women are identified in the media thusly "Given Name Maiden Surname Married Surname", even if the lady in question does not hyphenate or has kept her maiden name as her middle name. For example, I've seen various print articles refering to the current First Lady, Laura Bush, as "Laura Welch Bush", eventhough she goes by "Laura Bush". Milz ---------- The sharp reprimand was not lost upon her, and in time it came to pass that for "fay" she said "succeed"; that she no longer spoke of "dumbledores" but of "humble bees"; no longer said of young men and women that they "walked together," but that they were "engaged"; that she grew to talk of "greggles" as "wild hyacinths"; that when she had not slept she did not quaintly tell the servants next morning that she had been "hag-rid," but that she had "suffered from indigestion." --Mayor of Casterbridge, Chapter 20, by Thomas Hardy From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 18 19:35:19 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 19:35:19 -0000 Subject: Is Harry a pureblood? according to whom? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44167 Ali wrote: > I apologise for the lack of link but JKR also called Harry a "Half- > Blood" in one of her interviews. Given that she has defined the WW, > and the prejudices which accompany it, IMO we are meant to see > Harry as a Half-Blood. Now me: Resident HPfGU researcher to the rescue! Here's the snip from the interview: Q: Book Four explores several themes - some we've seen before like prejudice in Chamber of Secrets. We see more of that with foreign students and people with different parentage. Is that something you've been wanting to explore? JKR: From the beginning of Philosopher's Stone, prejudice is a very strong theme. It is plausible that Harry enters the world wide-eyed: everything will be wonderful and it's the sort of place where injustices don't happen. Then he finds out that it does happen and it's a shock to him. He finds out that he is a half-blood: to a wizard like Lucius Malfoy, he will never be a true wizard, because his mother was of Muggle parentage. It's a very important theme. And the link: http://www.geocities.com/aberforths_goat/Fall_2000_BBC_Newsround.htm So I think that in the technical sense, Harry's a pure-blood because both of his parents were wizards. There are references to Harry being a pure-blood in the text - two which come to mind are when he first meets Draco Malfoy in Madam Malkin's in PS/SS, Draco asks about Harry's parents "But they were *our* kind, weren't they?" and Harry responds "They were a witch and wizard, if that's what you mean" (PS, Ch. 5, UK ed. pgs. 60-61). And in CoS, Harry asks Dobby "But I'm not Muggle-born - how can I be in danger from the Chamber?" (Ch. 10, UK ed. p. 134). But then, as you say, Riddle calls both he and Harry "half-bloods" at the end of CoS. So I think the definition depends on who's defining it. To Riddle/Voldemort and Lucius Malfoy, who are filled with prejudice, a wizard is only a pure-blood if there are no Muggles from which they are descended. But to more enlightened individuals, Harry is a pure-blood because both of his parents were wizards. ~Phyllis From crussell at arkansas.net Wed Sep 18 19:48:25 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 19:48:25 -0000 Subject: Is Harry a pureblood? according to whom? In-Reply-To: <20020918182003.43796.qmail@web13006.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44168 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Barb P wrote: > >However, I do not believe that we should use the world-view of an elitist and a racist to work out terminology in the Potterverse. > --Barb I am really not sure what you meant by the above statement. The terms "elitist" and "racist" are not terms used in Potterverse; however, other words are used which, IMO, carry the same connotation. How else can the term, "mudblood" be classified but as a WW equivalent of a "racial" slur? As I just reminded by someone else's post, Draco has a high old time taunting Ron about his family's poverty. How else can this classified but as an example of "elitism"? Perhaps-and I believe I must be-missing your point. bugaloo37 From mi_shell16 at hotmail.com Wed Sep 18 20:15:57 2002 From: mi_shell16 at hotmail.com (theresnothingtoit) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 20:15:57 -0000 Subject: Dumbledores house and a little of Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44169 Is there any actually evidence, canon or interview, that sates that Dumbledore was in Gryffindor? I know it seems the obvious choice but I am sure it is never stated clearly in the books. Hagrid does mention that "they say" Dumbledore was in Gryffindor but I am a little apprehensive as taking this a hard truth. Anyway the only other house that I could see Dumbledore being in is Hufflepuff. The only reason being is that he is very forgiving and gives people second chances. The Hufflepuff ghost (the fat friar, I believe) is constantly trying to give Peeves a second chance but the Bloody Baron (Slytherin ghost) will have none of it. This led me to think of Snape. I believe that he is so mean partially because he can't forgive himself for what he has done as a DE and, if he were in Dumbledores position, would not believe his redemption for a second. That is why he respects Dumbledor so much but also gets so annoyed at him as well. I can see Snape being completely mystified by unconditional trust. Theresnothingtoit (who is carefully packing her books so she doesn't forget to take them to university) From crussell at arkansas.net Wed Sep 18 20:27:42 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 20:27:42 -0000 Subject: Is Harry a pureblood? according to whom? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44170 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: > So I think the definition depends on who's defining > it. To Riddle/Voldemort and Lucius Malfoy, who are filled with > prejudice, a wizard is only a pure-blood if there are no Muggles from > which they are descended. But to more enlightened individuals, Harry > is a pure-blood because both of his parents were wizards. > > ~Phyllis First of all, thanks for posting the link to the BBC 2000 JKR interview. I have been quoting it all day but could not remember where I had read it. However, there is something I disagree with you about. As far as defining the terms pure-blood and half-blood, IMO , it is Voldemort and his crew that have established the definitions. I cannot recall that at anytime is Harry refered to as being "pure- blood" -either by his friends or his enemies. Harry's friends do not use the terms pure-blood, half-blood or mudblood to classify inviduals. These are terms used and therefore, defined by Voldemort and the DE's. IMO, you are definitely right when you say that a wizard's worth is determined by his heritage in Voldemort's evalution. However, IMO, a truly enlightened person would not stoop to use a term such as pure-blood when describing a friend or even an enemy for that matter. I guess what I am saying is this means of "classifying" people (pure-blood, half-blood and mudblood) was invented by Voldemort and his pals-so lets let them establish the definitions-as revolting and inane as they are. bugaloo37 From the.gremlin at verizon.net Wed Sep 18 20:45:50 2002 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (ats_fhc3) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 20:45:50 -0000 Subject: Dumbledores house and a little of Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44171 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "theresnothingtoit" wrote: > Is there any actually evidence, canon or interview, that sates that > Dumbledore was in Gryffindor? I know it seems the obvious choice but > I am sure it is never stated clearly in the books. Hagrid does > mention that "they say" Dumbledore was in Gryffindor but I am a > little apprehensive as taking this a hard truth. > > Anyway the only other house that I could see Dumbledore being in is > Hufflepuff. The only reason being is that he is very forgiving and > gives people second chances. The Hufflepuff ghost (the fat friar, I > believe) is constantly trying to give Peeves a second chance but the > Bloody Baron (Slytherin ghost) will have none of it. then wrote >Theresnothingtoit > (who is carefully packing her books so she doesn't forget to take > them to university) Most unfortunately, because I purposely forgot to pack my books to take to university, I don't have canon evidence, but I think everyone just assumes Dumbledore in Gryffendor. I actually cannot see him in any house, but that's just not possible. I like the Hufflepuff idea, but for some reason, I'm thinking Ravenclaw. Dumbledore just embodies all the good qualities of every house, now doesn't he? Though I can't think of canon evidence to back up ambition. I think that's why he's hard to put in a house. Wouldn't it be funny if he had been in Slytherin? > > This led me to think of Snape. I believe that he is so mean > partially because he can't forgive himself for what he has done as a > DE and, if he were in Dumbledores position, would not believe his > redemption for a second. That is why he respects Dumbledor so much > but also gets so annoyed at him as well. I can see Snape being > completely mystified by unconditional trust. Snape is obviously finding it hard to forget his past as a DE, because who knows what he did then. Dumbledore's forgiveness probably threw him for a loop, but 15-20 years is enough time to finally get it into your thick, greasy head that someone trusts you unconditionally. I'm thinking that Snape knows that Dumbledore trusts him completely, that he's forgiven him, he just doesn't know WHY Dumbledore does this. He probably doesn't really even care anymore, and is just satisfied and grateful for the fact that someone would rely on him. As for the annoyances, someone (I forget who)posted the idea that was something to the effect of Snape and Dumbledore's relationship being such that they can...argue like that. -Acire, who is retrieving her books in October, who must reply to every post about Snape, and who must get to class. From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 18 21:02:25 2002 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 14:02:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dumbledore's house In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020918210225.40025.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44172 --- "theresnothingtoit" > Is there any actually evidence, canon or interview, that sates that > Dumbledore was in Gryffindor? I know it seems the obvious choice but > I am sure it is never stated clearly in the books. Hagrid does > mention that "they say" Dumbledore was in Gryffindor but I am a > little apprehensive as taking this a hard truth. Actually, it's Hermione who says that, in PS/SS. "Gryffindor sounds by far the best. I heard Dumbledore himself was in it." (Quoted from memory, but that's pretty close.) Granted, that's not definitive evidence, but I'm willing to take Hermione's word for it. How often is she wrong? *g* Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Sep 18 21:14:45 2002 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 21:14:45 -0000 Subject: Is Harry a pureblood? according to whom? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44173 Phyllis, quoting JKR in a 2000 Newsround interview:"Then he finds out that it does happen and it's a shock to him. He finds out that he is a half-blood: to a wizard like Lucius Malfoy, he will never be a true wizard, because his mother was of Muggle parentage. It's a very important theme." Well, JKR said it, so what can I say? Thanks for finding the quote. But it leaves a question pretty much like the previous question: If Harry, the son of a witch and wizard, is a half-blood, then what's Seamus Finnegan, the son of a wizard and a Muggle? Consider this: Suppose Harry, instead of being a wizard, was the son of a naturalized citizen and a natural-born citizen? What would you call him? It proves what Barb was getting at: Once you start down the road of labeling people to sort them by intrinsic "merit," racism-classism- elitism is close at hand. The definition shifts to suit the purpose of the jerk who wants to put somebody "in their place." I stand by what I said that Draco didn't *appear* to consider him a Mudblood; but it looks like Voldemort, with even less of a "pedigree," does. It's not a pleasant road to go down. From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Sep 18 21:38:06 2002 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 21:38:06 -0000 Subject: Is Harry a pureblood? Was "a question" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44174 Bugaloo37:"Apparently, I do not understand the "pureblood", "half- blood", "mudblood" concepts. This is how I understood it: "purebloods" are those who can trace both paternally and maternally their family lineage and find no muggle ancestry-obviously a very difficult thing to do since according to Ron, there are hardly any wizard families that have not intermarried with muggles. Therefore according to this idea, a "half-blood", would be one who could trace only one side-father or mother-and find it "pure" or in other words- muggle-free, i.e., Harry Potter, Tom Riddle." This confusion is exactly why these distinctions are so distatesful and divisive, and why going down that road is such a slippery slope. It's clear, though, that the term "Mudblood" has the same emotional punch as our ugliest racial epithet. JKR clearly is saying a lot about prejudice, *and* about jumping to conclusions - Lupin, Sirius Black, Hagrid and Madame Maxime, even Snape. OTOH, she is not, however, going down the road of moral equivalence. We'll never see a sympathetic dementor character, or hear that what Dumbledore does in the war is just as bad as what Lucius does. "bugaloo37 -who loves Harry Potter and the Weasleys for determining Hermione's worth as a person and a friend based on her obvious intelligence and lovingly loyal heart." Amen, sister - (brother?) From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 18 21:40:52 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 21:40:52 -0000 Subject: Physical Harm from an Expelliarmus Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44175 In griping about how the next Movie That Must Not Be Named appears to be handling the duelling club scene in CoS, a thought occurred to me - the Expelliarmus spell is used to disarm an opponent, yet when Snape casts an Expelliarmus on Lockhart in the duelling club, "Lockhart was blasted off his feet: he flew backwards off the stage, smashed into the wall and slid down it to sprawl on the floor" (Ch. 11, p. 142 UK. ed.). IIRC, the only other time an Expelliarmus does something other than disarm, it's when HRH cast it simultaneously at Snape in the shrieking shack and "Snape was lifted off his feet and slammed into the wall, then slid down it to the floor, a trickle of blood oozing from under his hair. He had been knocked out" (Ch. 19, p. 265 UK ed.). When Sirius croaks "Expelliarmus" in the shrieking shack in PoA, Harry and Hermione's wands fly out of their hands, but no physical harm is done to them. Same goes for when Lupin yells "Expelliarmus" in the shrieking shack in PoA - HRH's wands fly out of their hands, but again, no physical harm is done to them. When Harry yells "Expelliarmus" in CoS, the diary flies out of Draco's hand, but again, no physical harm to Draco. I assume the Snape knock-out was a result of the combined force of three Expelliarmus-es thrown simultaneously. But what about when Snape blasts Lockhart in the duelling club? Is this a sign of Snape's power? Or of Lockhart's weakness? Or both? Or does the physical harm happen when you throw the Expelliarmus in a rage (since "Snape was looking murderous" when he threw it)? Or can a wizard cast an Expelliarmus with different intentions ? to merely disarm, or to both disarm and cause physical harm? ~Phyllis who wonders if JKR got the idea for the Anglia's Invisibility Booster from the invisibility button on Stuart Little's model car From nplyon at yahoo.com Wed Sep 18 21:50:33 2002 From: nplyon at yahoo.com (Nicole L.) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 14:50:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: {FILK} By My Life Message-ID: <20020918215033.5212.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44176 (To the tune of "Stars" from "Les Misrables") Sirius: There, out in the darkness A threatening menace It has begun It has begun James, be my witness I promise you this I will protect your son I will protect your son The Dark Lord has returned But there are those who will fight back And those who do follow the path of resistance Face certain attack Yet he must fall This Voldemort fall By spell By craft! James, may you be at rest Lily at your side May you be assured That I will not fail If I must give my life To protect him I swear I will not quail I swear I will not quail I was not there for your son I was intent On vengeance And in my great fury Sorrow and anger I threw away my chance! Now he must fall This Voldemort fall By spell Or craft! And so it must be and so I will see This fight all the way to the end I will not falter I will not fail Harry This time James, I swear to him That I will see him Safe from this strife I will never rest Till then This I swear This I swear by my life! ~Nicole, making her first foray into dramatic filking. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Wed Sep 18 21:50:36 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 21:50:36 -0000 Subject: Physical Harm from an Expelliarmus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44177 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: > I assume the Snape knock-out was a result of the combined force of > three Expelliarmus-es thrown simultaneously. But what about when > Snape blasts Lockhart in the duelling club? Is this a sign of > Snape's power? Or of Lockhart's weakness? Or both? Or does the > physical harm happen when you throw the Expelliarmus in a rage > (since "Snape was looking murderous" when he threw it)? Or can a > wizard cast an Expelliarmus with different intentions - to merely > disarm, or to both disarm and cause physical harm? I think it may be a combination of the wizard's power and intentions. My guess is that a "normal" Expelliarmus is relatively harmless, but if the caster really wants to put some extra oomph behind it (as Snape clearly wanted to with Lockhart), it can be done. Neither Sirius nor Remus wanted to harm the kids in the Shrieking Shack, and Harry probably didn't even know that the spell could be modulated when he cast it at Draco. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From eloiseherisson at aol.com Wed Sep 18 21:55:17 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 17:55:17 EDT Subject: Apologia pro persona sua dilecta (was: Re: Snape's "mind set?") Message-ID: <10c.17f1f537.2aba5045@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44178 In a message dated 17/09/2002 22:45:36 GMT Standard Time, i_am_erasmas at yahoo.ca writes: > > I love the depth of Snape's character, but I think he is a > reprehensible person. Probably very brave, definitely cunning, likely > admirable and deserving respect for the sacrifices he has made and > will continue to make, but how do people actually like him? Eloise: As has been pointed out more than once, people do not have to be perfect, or even 'good' to be liked. Which is fortunate for most of us. ;-) There are aspects of Snape's character which *are* reprehensible. I think most Snapefans would acknowledge this. But the admirable characteristics to which you allude outweigh these in our minds, I suppose. I'm not sure that 'like' is exactly the right word. I think many of us are more 'attracted' to him, which isn't the same thing. We can be attracted to people we don't always like! And of course, we relate to his character as fellow adults, rather than as children. Apart fom Sirius and Lupin, against whom he has personal grudges, do we see Snape acting in a *reprehensible* way towards any other adults? So what is attractive, I hear you ask? Well, sure, we have to get over the physical shortcomings, which aren't *that* great (well, nothing a bottle of shampoo wouldn't sort out). But once we're past that hurdle, we have someone with a mysterious past, hints of heroism, evidence that he is a powerful (or at the least very competent) wizard, the gift of eloquence and a ready wit. His characterisation also plays on some powerful imagery: his hook-nosed, black- attired appearance recalls Gothic archetypes; his bat-like attributes are vampiric (need I elaborate?) So what I am saying is that whatever his shortcomings, JKR has created a character with some very attractive characteristics. Erasmas: > > I know there's a huge following of Snape fic writers that love to > invent ways for Snape to love and be loved. I think they're 99% > delusional, and that the majority of them are unduly influenced by > their attraction to Alan Rickman. I can sort of understand this but > those are fics and this is supposed to be a discussion of theories > about the books, is it not? I don't read or write fanfics, but your objections seem to apply to the rest of us Snapefans. Yes, I daresay there is some delusion going on. But then, we often delude ourselves about those we have feelings for in RL too. ;-) Alan Rickman is a complicating factor ;-) But I don't think he is decisive. Although I really wish they hadn't decided to give Celluloid!Snape such bouncy, clean hair. I think things might have been a little clearer with the grease left in! My fascination for the character started before the film. I hated him through books one and two, was saying to my kids, 'Snape's OK', by book three and was completely hooked by him by the end of book four. Erasmas: > > I can understand that there could be very good reasons for Snape to > put on an act to make the children fear him, or dislike him, or think > he's unfair, but he goes much further than that. So, for those of you > that believe Snape is acting purposefully, I invite you to come up > with a plausible reason for Snape to act the way he does in these > scenes: > > 1. PoA - Snape's Grudge > > The one on one interview with Harry -- deliberately taunting Harry > about James. Whether he has a good reason to hate James or not, what > purpose could this possibly serve. Bear in mind that he is talking to > a 13 year old orphan boy about his dead parents. Eloise: I don't think this *does* serve a purpose, except a personal one. It is, IMO, purely to do with unresolved issues to do with his own personality and past. Erasmas: > > 2. GoF - Hermione's Teeth > > Mocking a young girl about a physical attribute that she's sensitive > about. This isn't severety, or favouritism, it is cruelty, with no > purpose but the joy of seeing a child hurt. Eloise: I think it is partly a reflex reaction. It *is* a funny remark, just one that is very unkind and inappropriate. Some of us suggest other list members are bouncing ferrets on the floor and I'm afraid I don't think that's a very big step away. (Sorry, Richard!) Plus, he has a big problem with Hermione. I'm not defending that. It's immature, but there are reasons for it. Erasmas: > > 3. PoA - Remus Revelation > > Clearly Snape and the rest of the staff were expected to keep quiet > about Lupin being a werewolf. Him telling the Slytherins about it > would be hard to explain with anything other than childish revenge > for spoiling his misguided plans. Eloise: I do have a problem with this one as Remus is my next favourite character. But there *are* other explanations. I think his actions, apart from any personal revenge motive may have stemmed from the fact that he genuinely believed that Dumbledore was wrong to employ him, a view which is likely to be widely held within the WW. Even Remus seems to have agreed in the end. Exasperated at being unable to have his point of view accepted and convinced that events had proved him right, he took matters into his own hands. I think he was wrong, but perhaps he got a little shove from the author, who needed Remus out of the way so that Crouch/Moody could take his place! (And incidentally, if we had ever seen Barty Crouch Jr in any form other than as an hysterical youth, encumbered with Moody's disfigurements or Polyjuiced, I am sure that I would have found him, Ever-So-Evil as he is, extremely attractive. I appreciate the twisted way his mind works, even if I disapprove (to put it mildly) of what he does.) Erasmas: > > It boggles my mind, really, that so many HP fans can get past these > things. > Eloise: Have you never believed six impossible things before breakfast? You must practise more! ;-) Erasmas: > In a way I can understand how he treats Neville (presumably > a "character building" excercise. Eloise: Now his treatment of Neville I find harder to defend. I *don't* happen to believe he's trying to be character-building. I think he just doesn't suffer fools gladly... and as far as he's concerned, Neville's a fool. Until we find out that their backstories are linked, of course! ;-) Erasmas: > He clearly has a poor understanding of Harry's character, even in the > fourth year, since he continues to attack Harry's presumed quest for > glory. Most of his attacks on Harry in class fall far from the mark > because they are a mere annoyance. The only times he gets a rise out > of Harry is when he attacks the character of his parents. Eloise: I think a lot of Snape's reactions are to do with projection. I think he wants recognition (not necessarily 'glory') and his role as spy-turned-school master militates against that. Harry has gained glory at every turn, without even intending to. I think if Snape looked into the Mirror of Erised, he would see himself defeating Voldemort singlehanded. Harry is competitition, a threat. It is desperately immature, but I think he is genuinely jealous of Harry. Erasmas: > It seems that a lot of the theories I've seen about Snape have gone > way beyond an explanation of what has been shown so far in the books. > I guess all I'm asking is that before more theories come out that > provide a basis for Snape's behavior, take a good look at the > behavior and don't just make a theory that explains why he is stern > and doesn't shower. Eloise: My own theory about Snape (GEORGE'S SISTER DIANA; see Hypotheticalley) acknowledges the flaws in his personality. He doesn't *like* being on the side of good, but his convictions have led him there. In the big things (saving Harry's life, being loyal to Dumbledore) he is sound, but he *is* a Slytherin, so he will favour his house and his nastiness is a safety valve which allows him to function within the constraints of being on the 'Light side. For myself, I have in addition a compulsion to try and understand *why* people act as they do, not just what they hope to achieve through their actions. In the process find I can forgive a lot. Eloise Unrepentant Snapefan. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cindysphynx at comcast.net Wed Sep 18 22:01:06 2002 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 22:01:06 -0000 Subject: Physical Harm from an Expelliarmus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44179 Phyllis wrote (about Expelliarmus): > I assume the Snape knock-out was a result of the combined force of > three Expelliarmus-es thrown simultaneously. But what about when > Snape blasts Lockhart in the duelling club? Is this a sign of > Snape's power? Or of Lockhart's weakness? Or both? Or does the > physical harm happen when you throw the Expelliarmus in a rage > (since "Snape was looking murderous" when he threw it)? Or can a > wizard cast an Expelliarmus with different intentions ? to merely > disarm, or to both disarm and cause physical harm? Hmmm. Good questions. Two other instances of Expelliarmus that come to mind is Harry's use of it to attempt to disarm Voldemort (in the graveyard) and Wormtail (in PoA). There's also the case of Harry using the spell to extricate himself from the spider in GoF. In all three of these cases, you'd imagine that Harry would want to put some serious energy behind the spell if it had the potential to physically harm the wizard or spider being disarmed. Against Voldemort, Wormtail and the spider, Harry is highly motivated and ought to be experiencing very strong emotions, perhas akin to rage. Yet Harry isn't successful in knocking Voldemort or Wormtail off their feet or in knocking the spider away from him. I would assume he very much would have wanted to do these things, under the circumstances. So, then. Maybe the impact of Expelliarmus relates to the power of the thing on the receiving end of the spell. Voldemort and Wormtail are strong, so they are not physically harmed by the spell, perhaps. The spider is strong (and is able to throw off stunning spells), so it is not blasted backward by Harry's spell. That would suggest that Snape is able to blast Lockhart because Lockhart is weak, not because Snape is especially strong. And ya gotta love any theory that denies Snape the opportunity to be seen as strong. ;-) Cindy -- unsure why Harry's Expelliarmus spell was successful against the spider when Harry's and Cedric's solo stunning spells were not From fyredriftwood at yahoo.com Wed Sep 18 22:39:57 2002 From: fyredriftwood at yahoo.com (Fyre Wood) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 22:39:57 -0000 Subject: Reference to Harry's pureblood status (was: Is Harry a pureblood?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44180 Bugaloo37 kindly posted: > I cannot recall that at anytime is Harry refered to as being "pure- > blood" -either by his friends or his enemies. Fyre Wood (ME) Replies: Draco Malfoy refers to Harry I believe as a pureblood many times. Here's an example of this... Chamber of Secrets, Chapter 12, page 223 (the american edition... though I don't know how reliable it is because it *is* the american edition). "Saint Potter, the Mudbloods' friend," said Draco Malfoy slowly. He's another one with no proper wizard feeling, or he wouldn't go around with that jumped up Granger Mudblood. And people think he's Slytherin's heir." I have always taken that to mean that Harry's a pureblood. Perhaps I misunderstood? --Fyre Wood, who is very happy to announce that today is her 19th birthday. From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Sep 18 23:39:34 2002 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 23:39:34 -0000 Subject: Reference to Harry's pureblood status (was: Is Harry a pureblood?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44181 Happy Birthday to FyreWood, Happy Birthday to FyreWood, who said, quoting Draco:" 'Saint Potter, the Mudbloods' friend,' said Draco Malfoy slowly. He's another one with no proper wizard feeling, or he wouldn't go around with that jumped up Granger Mudblood. And people think he's Slytherin's heir.' " He doesn't call Harry a pureblood explicitly there, but Draco obviously considers Harry a pureblood who hasn't got the right prejudices -er, feeling. Others have pointed out that others, like Lord Voldemort, don't consider Harry that pure. So it just depends how much of a bigot you are. From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Sep 18 23:51:07 2002 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 23:51:07 -0000 Subject: Physical Harm from an Expelliarmus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44182 Cindy:"So, then. Maybe the impact of Expelliarmus relates to the power of the thing on the receiving end of the spell. Voldemort and Wormtail are strong, so they are not physically harmed by the spell, perhaps. The spider is strong (and is able to throw off stunning spells), so it is not blasted backward by Harry's spell." I've always believed we can understand magic and spells the same way everything else works. Some magicians are stronger than others both on the giving and receiving ends. IOW, in our Muggle world, who would you rather take a punch from, Daniel Radcliffe or Robbie Coltrane? Which one would you be more likely to hurt if you took a swing? Magical strength and constitution (to borrow D&D terms) is the same for ordinary forces and for magic. Cindy:"-- unsure why Harry's Expelliarmus spell was successful against the spider when Harry's and Cedric's solo stunning spells were not" I'm not sure, either, but it seems intuitive it would be easier to get somebody to drop something than to knock 'em out; and the Stunning spells were hitting the spider's exoskeleton. Harry and Cedric made it when they hit the spider's underbelly. From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Wed Sep 18 23:53:38 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 23:53:38 -0000 Subject: Physical Harm from an Expelliarmus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44183 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Cindy C." wrote: > Two other instances of Expelliarmus that come to mind is Harry's use > of it to attempt to disarm Voldemort (in the graveyard) and Wormtail > (in PoA). There's also the case of Harry using the spell to > extricate himself from the spider in GoF. In all three of these > cases, you'd imagine that Harry would want to put some serious > energy behind the spell if it had the potential to physically harm > the wizard or spider being disarmed. Against Voldemort, Wormtail > and the spider, Harry is highly motivated and ought to be > experiencing very strong emotions, perhas akin to rage. Well, in Voldemort's case, the Priori Incantatem effect kicked in, so we can't really judge what effect the spell would've had otherwise. And giant spiders may not be affected by spells in the same way as humans. Especially since Expelliarmus is a disarming spell, and spiders don't carry weapons as a rule. Wormtail is another story. Hmmm... perhaps the strong emotion alone isn't enough for Extra-Strength Expelliarmus (TM)? Maybe it needs conscious, focused effort on the part of the caster? Harry wasn't specifically *trying* to make his spell extra-violent, so it wasn't. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From crussell at arkansas.net Thu Sep 19 00:01:53 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 00:01:53 -0000 Subject: Reference to Harry's pureblood status (was: Is Harry a pureblood?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44184 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Fyre Wood" wrote: > > "Saint Potter, the Mudbloods' friend," said Draco Malfoy slowly. He's > another one with no proper wizard feeling, or he wouldn't go around > with that jumped up Granger Mudblood. And people think he's > Slytherin's heir." > > I have always taken that to mean that Harry's a pureblood. Perhaps I > misunderstood? > > --Fyre Wood, who is very happy to announce that today is her 19th > birthday. First of all: Happy Birthday!! In reference to the quote above, later on in the same book, CoS, the true heir of Slytherin is revealed to be Tom Riddle/Voldemort. Who admits himself that he is not a "pureblood" but a "half-blood- like Harry" Obviously, Tom Riddle does not consider his half-blood status as a stumbling block to his heir of Slytherin claim. IMO, Draco obviously knows the various "blood" types-he probably learned them at his father's knee. Being a half-blood apparently does not carry the same stigma as being a mudblood-according of course to the completely biased opinion of people like the Malfoy's and Voldemort. According to Ron, very few families can claim pure-blood status because intermarriage with Muggles was necessary to prevent extinction of wizards altogether. Of course, this is just another example of just how inane the concept of "purity" is. IMO, "purity" of heritage is something which someone without individual merits will lay claim to- to achieve some elevated status- at least among the people he wishes to impress. To people like the Weasley's, this "purity" issue is of no importance. bugaloo37 From Zarleycat at aol.com Thu Sep 19 00:09:46 2002 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 00:09:46 -0000 Subject: Snape's "mind set?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44185 >Now granted Black did try to kill him, no dispute. At the risk of starting another frenzied explosion of discussion about "the prank" I will only say that there are a number of people on the list who would argue that we don't really know what Sirius' *intentions* were in that incident. >it is however pure hate. Why? Snape has never been > irrational with anyone, but Black. He would have given Black and > Lupin over to the dementors without question. I will say one thing > for Black, all things considered he could have and should have left > Snape behind but he did not. >I love finely layered characters. I'm with you on the above, pretty much. That's why Snape generates so much discussion on the list and so great a visceral response from people, whether they love him or hate him. And, yes, the Sev/Siri relationship simply screams about things in the past that neither man has been able to leave behind. The potential to do all sorts of things with the interactions between these two, to me anyway, is so great that I can't believe JKR won't give us some scenes that will positively crackle off the pages. I mean, these two have a level of loathing for each other that is unequaled in Potterverse. Now, if only OoP would wend its way to the publisher... Marianne From crussell at arkansas.net Thu Sep 19 00:19:14 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 00:19:14 -0000 Subject: Reference to Harry's pureblood status (was: Is Harry a pureblood?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44186 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Ferer" wrote: > He doesn't call Harry a pureblood explicitly there, but Draco > obviously considers Harry a pureblood who hasn't got the right > prejudices -er, feeling. I simply do not make the same interpretation. Draco never actually makes any reference to Harry's "blood-type" as it were. He refers to Hermione in the worst possible terms as a "jumped up mudblood" He obviously feels Harry's regard for Hermione is ill-placed. However, IMO , this is not because he considers Harry to be a pureblood. IMO, Draco feels that even a half-blood should not consider Hermione worth his attention. He also considers Ron a poor choice for a friend-but this is based on the poverty of Ron's family-not his heritage. What can I say? I consider Draco to exemplify the absolutely worst aspects of human nature. He is a reflection, of course, of his father. He assesses people on their heritage and financial status. Harry, of course, does the exact opposite. This is shown by who has chosen to be his two best friends: Ron Weasley (impoverished) and Hermione Granger ( a "mudblood"). bugaloo37-who loves Harry and simply despises Draco (apologies to Draco lovers) From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Thu Sep 19 00:35:36 2002 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 00:35:36 -0000 Subject: Accio to Firebolt (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44187 Accio to Firebolt (GoF, Chap. 20) (to the tune of the 1964 hit Just Like Romeo & Juliet by The Reflections) Hear an excerpt at http://music.barnesandnoble.com/search/product.asp?ean=56775742829 Dedicated to selkie THE SCENE: The First Task of the Triwizards Tourney. HARRY, full of fear and trembling, stands alone before the tumultuous crowd and the even more tumultuous Hungarian Horntail. HARRY Last up to do the First Task Tourney Have a little Summons I gotta try Gotta call somethin' I can fly on I face a beast fiercer than a lion As scared as can be, will it work, Hermione? If I say,"Accio" to Firebolt. (Just like a "charm," his faithful Firebolt arrives in response to his Summons. HARRY, as he climbs on board, feels his spirit soar along with his body) I'll take my broom in rising ascent Time to hone in like a huntin' dog Just take a moment now to hover Let's use diversionary cover I have been set free from all my anxiety When I said, "Accio" to Firebolt (HERMIONE leads a CHORUS OF GRYFFINDOR STUDENTS cheering HARRY on. Only RON refuses to participate.) HERMIONE & CHORUS He said, "Accio" to Firebolt! He said, "Accio" to Firebolt! He said, "Accio" to Firebolt! He said, "Accio" to Firebolt! HARRY Now is my time to advance And I feel completely at ease It's just one more tough Quidditch game One Gold Snitch more to seize, uh-huh! (Avoiding the Horntail's fiery breath, HARRY is wounded by a spike from its mighty tail. Despite this, HARRY diverts her away from her nest long enough to grab the Golden Egg) Ah, I'm hit, now, she's laceratin' Horntails can whale you 'cause their tails really sting But from off her nest she rises I grab from her that egg my prize is My broomstick flew me to this joyous victory `Cause of "Accio" to Firebolt! (HERMIONE again leads the chorus, with RON now enthusiastically joining in, as the victorious but injured HARRY is escorted to Pomfrey) HERMIONE, RON & CHORUS He scores! "Accio" to Firebolt! He scores! "Accio" to Firebolt! He scores! "Accio" to Firebolt! He scores! "Accio" to Firebolt! (fade-out) - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm (with all the new filks flooding in, expect an update real soon!) From nolenjr at slu.edu Thu Sep 19 00:33:46 2002 From: nolenjr at slu.edu (jessrynn) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 00:33:46 -0000 Subject: Reference to Harry's pureblood status (was: Is Harry a pureblood?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44188 Originally posted by bugaloo37: >In reference to the quote above, later on in the same book, CoS, the >true heir of Slytherin is revealed to be Tom Riddle/Voldemort. Who >admits himself that he is not a "pureblood" but a "half-blood- like >Harry" The problem with Tom Riddle's comparison of blood status with Harry's is that his father was a muggle with no magical ability, while Harry's mother was a witch, who was muggle-born, so there is a difference. I just see Tom Riddle streching a bit in this scene to further the comparison between himself and Harry, stressing muggle heritage, and not necessarily blood status. I have always read Harry as being a pureblood wizard, becasuse there is a scene(possibly more) where there is a discussion of the Weasley and Malfoy families being able to trace back their pureblood status for many generations. I take that as meaning that there are pureblood wizard families that cannot go back as far without running into some muggle heritage, and therefore assumed that if your mother and father were both magical then you were considered pureblood. I don't know where the particular scene is because I'm at work and don't have the books handy, but that is the scene that I always have based my assumption that Harry was pureblood on. Anyway seeing as this is my first post on the list, I just wanted to say a quick hello to everyone. I've been a lurker for about 9 months, haven't posted yet a little out of intimidation and often because the point I want to make is made before I can type out a response. Jessrynn From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Thu Sep 19 01:34:16 2002 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 01:34:16 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Name meanings: Arabella Figg/ Hagrid Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44189 >Yes, and it also hinges on something else. JKR herself not being a Latin >scholar (French teacher yes, Latin scholar, no), and since she is the one >who's come up with all of this, I simply don't see it as vital for >everything to be grammatically correct to make a nice story. Take >Wingardium Leviosar (sorry if I spelled it wrong, I REALLY don't want to be >turned back into a ferret again), for example. I haven't researched it >properly, but I think leviosar can be related to a lightness, but then wing >is thrown in there, completely unLatin. > THANK YOU. :-) I've been reading all of these posts with the overall sensation that JKR is not a Latinist, and that she tends to write with a light touch - sometimes skimming the surface of a deeper meaning in Latin or another tongue, but I really don't think that she spent hours poring over Latin grammars building in levels of meaning for us to unravel. I really don't. This doesn't mean I don't respect the layers and levels of meaning she *has* built in, but basically a lot of the stuff she writes can be read very fast as a tongue-in-cheek. I think that's the way it is with some of these spells - and I think the names are brilliant. I particularly like Mobiliarbus - move the tree, which may or may not be grammatically precise, but does convey pretty clearly to a reader with a bit of Latin what the sense is. Hagrid: I have seen the word hagrid before in the past, generally archaic usage, to describe someone who looked haunted, beset or picked at by a shrewish wife. I have seen it as an adjective. That was the sense I got from the name. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From jferer at yahoo.com Thu Sep 19 01:48:55 2002 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 01:48:55 -0000 Subject: Reference to Harry's pureblood status (was: Is Harry a pureblood?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44190 Me (Jim):"He [Draco] doesn't call Harry a pureblood explicitly there, but Draco obviously considers Harry a pureblood who hasn't got the right prejudices -er, feeling." Bugaloo:"I simply do not make the same interpretation. Draco never actually makes any reference to Harry's "blood-type" as it were. He refers to Hermione in the worst possible terms as a "jumped up mudblood" He obviously feels Harry's regard for Hermione is ill- placed." Doesn't that say that he considers Harry of a higher status than Hermione? I understand that he could only consider Harry a "half- blood," but his willingness at first to 'befriend' Harry suggests he thinks Harry is a half-blood - not that Draco's opinion is of much consequence. bugaloo:"What can I say? I consider Draco to exemplify the absolutely worst aspects of human nature. He is a reflection, of course, of his father." Well, we at least agree on *that.* From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Thu Sep 19 02:00:54 2002 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 02:00:54 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] New Question and Answer thing Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44191 >Okay, I've read a few posts asking for a new question and answer >thing, so here we go =) > > << 1.Do you think we'll ever go inside an Arithmacy class or perhaps >any >other classes we have yet to see? > Possibly, just on the fly - as when a professor calls someone out. Much as I'd love to - i especially would love to go to Astronomy class with the gang :-) - something to keep in mind is what drives the plot. So far, most of the action has been in Potions (Snape, who seems to be some sort of Harrician nemesis); DADA (all of the changing teachers, and two of the villains, have been there); Charms, Herbology and History of Magic (which seem to be where Harry, Hermione and Ron get many of their useful clues and skills); and Divination, where although Professor Trelawney is annoying, we do get the one useful prophecy - to date. Personally, I think a glimpse into Muggle Studies would be most amusing, but so far we have not been vouchsafed one. > > << 2. Do any of the pets in Harry Potter seem like they're not *really* > >pets. > Crookshanks and Mrs. Norris. > > << 3. Name you favorite new organization with letters (Ie: N.I.N.E= >Neville is not Evil) and try to come up with your own. > Don't have one. I'm not into acronyms. :-) > > << 4. Will Draco ever stop being oh so evil? > I don't think so, not within the book. What I think will happen will be that Lucius will be taken down with the DEs and Draco will find himself the orphan or at least fatherless, with all of his beliefs knocked out from under him. > > << 5. Predictions on the final chapter of book 7? > I'd love an epilogue to show everyone living happily ever after and what becomes of them. We know the last word is "scar", and *my* designer last sentence is "Ginny leaned over and kissed him gently on his scar." > > << 6. Ron and Hermione--Will they hook up? > Yup. > > << 7. What's the deal with Wizard money? Does it collect interest? Why >is it so darn big and heavy? Why not paper money instead of coins? > I think it collects money. I think coins rather than paper because goblins, who do the banking, are fiscal conservatives and have kept the wizarding world on a gold and silver standard. :-) The wizarding world seems preoccupied with keeping things at a primary production and service industry level, to put things in economic terms for one second; despite the interjected economic class distinction between the likes of the Malfoys and the Weasleys, I don't get the impression that 'getting rich' is a big driver in the wizarding world. Which is one reason it appeals to me. > > << 8. If you could play any Quidditch possition, what would it be? Why? > >Which team? > Ravenclaw chaser, then the local village league on Sundays. :-) > > << 9. Name a character who is going to have the most change in his/her >characterization between books 5-7, and explain what changes might >happen. > Ron. Ron is going to go from being a somewhat annoying and less than distinctive adolescent to being lovestruck and confused and finally growing to be a wizard of respectable powers when he finally applies himself. > > << 10. What new flavors of Bertie Bott's beans would you like to eat? > Chocolate eclair, chicken satay (I love savory stuff, and I wish there were more of them - as a hypoglycaemic, I do find my skin crawling whenever I read about the endlessly sweet snacks the kids eat, but then I did at that age too), Jack & Jill sundae (vanilla, chocolate, marshmallow, fudge), spice cake, beef Wellington, chicken cordon bleu... the list is endless, really. :-) Felinia _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From editor at texas.net Thu Sep 19 02:05:35 2002 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 21:05:35 -0500 Subject: Too good a line: Call for filk! was [Movie] I don't like Spiders, and Snape References: <003d01c25e71$e121cf80$429f5651@tinyjyuaxzlq> <014801c25eb9$0d591da0$609ecdd1@istu757> Message-ID: <007501c25f81$0bb004a0$d97e63d1@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 44192 *Amandageist pops in, in her Official Capacity, to warn the main list from responding on any of the above!!! This has been cross-posted from Movie, go *there* to talk about that stuff!! Or risk a water balloon.* Okay. I'm so crushed. I was certain, from the subject line, that this was going to be one of the most memorable filks yet. Who out there *didn't* read that line and hear the tune to "I Don't Like Spiders and Snakes"? Or am I the only one who remembers that very odd little song? I'm cross-posting this to the main list so a broader audience will see that incipient line; surely some fertile and warped imagination can write this (Ron to be the singer, of course). Caius? Marina? You various interchangeable Ron people? --Amanda From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Sep 19 02:10:43 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 02:10:43 -0000 Subject: Snape's "mind set?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44193 Erasmus wrote: >>I love the depth of Snape's character, but I think he is a reprehensible person. Probably very brave, definitely cunning, likely admirable and deserving respect for the sacrifices he has made and will continue to make, but how do people actually like him? I know there's a huge following of Snape fic writers that love to invent ways for Snape to love and be loved. I think they're 99% delusional, and that the majority of them are unduly influenced by their attraction to Alan Rickman. I can sort of understand this but those are fics and this is supposed to be a discussion of theories about the books, is it not?<< I started to like Snape before I ever heard of Alan Rickman. I agree that in real life he wouldn't be easy to like. I think that's the point. For those of us who worry that we have Snapish qualities, or at least have to put in a conscious effort *not* to have them, it can be gratifying to imagine that somebody with such pronounced physical and emotional shortcomings might be loved in spite of them. >>I can understand that there could be very good reasons for Snape to put on an act to make the children fear him, or dislike him, or think he's unfair, but he goes much further than that. So, for those of you that believe Snape is acting purposefully, I invite you to come up with a plausible reason for Snape to act the way he does in these scenes: >>1. PoA - Snape's Grudge The one on one interview with Harry -- deliberately taunting Harry about James. Whether he has a good reason to hate James or not, what purpose could this possibly serve. Bear in mind that he is talking to a 13 year old orphan boy about his dead parents.<< Snape has probably seen children suffer far worse things than being insulted. I don't think it ranks very high on his personal scale of awful things people do, or that he has done. I believe that Snape thinks the world is a hard, cold place where children can get hurt, and, unlike Mrs. Weasley, he sees no point in pretending that it isn't, especially when said children insist on putting themselves in harm's way for a lark. In this scene, Snape believes Harry has been doing something very dangerous (which he has), and Harry is stonewalling him about it. Look at the way Harry responds to Snape's interrogation: "Harry didn't say anything." "Still Harry didn't speak." "Harry tried to look mildly surprised." "'I don't know, Professor.'" "'No,' said Harry, now trying to sound innocently curious." "There was a long silence." ...after which Harry tells an outright lie, then resumes his silence through two more paragraphs. Snape insults Harry's parents in order to break through Harry's silence. Of course, since Rowling doesn't approve of Snape's methods, it backfires, and it is Snape who ends up revealing a humiliating secret: that he was the victim of a practical joke. >>2. GoF - Hermione's Teeth Mocking a young girl about a physical attribute that she's sensitive about. This isn't severety, or favouritism, it is cruelty, with no purpose but the joy of seeing a child hurt.<< Snape's cruelty does snap Hermione out of her hysteria (she's standing there, covering her mouth and whimpering). It's not nice, but it works. It's been argued that a fourteen year-old girl has every right to whimper hysterically under such circumstances, and perhaps she does, but Hermione had better get tough if she's going to stick by Harry. >>3. PoA - Remus Revelation Clearly Snape and the rest of the staff were expected to keep quiet about Lupin being a werewolf. Him telling the Slytherins about it would be hard to explain with anything other than childish revenge or spoiling his misguided plans.<< Even if Snape doesn't still fear that Lupin is in league with Voldemort, and really nothing has happened that would convince him otherwise, Lupin is safe only as far as he can be relied on to take his potion. Why should Snape place Lupin's career, or even Dumbledore's wishes, above the safety of the children entrusted to him? I think it speaks well of Snape, actually. He might have been sacked himself. Remember that Harry's real enemies in the adult wizarding world take great care to hide their hatred of him except when they believe Harry is in their power. Most adults in the WW fawn over him whether they have his best interest at heart or not. It would have been easy for Harry to think that everyone in the present day wizarding world, even Draco, wants to be his friend. Snape's hostility is what puts Harry, Ron and Hermione on their guard. Pippin From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Thu Sep 19 02:12:33 2002 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 02:12:33 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Can't Hagrid Do Magic? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44194 >But if he really *was* deprived of his wand, and didn't live at Hogwarts >with >a benevolent headmaster, I think he, or anyone else in that position would >have a pretty hard time. I was talking about what the punishment was >*supposed* to be, rather than the way it panned out for this particular >individual, as I think you recognise. IMO, it amounts nearly to ostracism. > >Eloise > I totally agree. Competent or not, he would have been raised in an environment where he learned to rely on magic to do things, and saw it relied on to do things. Given that going out and joining the Muggle world is probably not a valid option (I wonder, have any other such "exiles" done that? with any degree of success?), that would essentially be stranding someone at a rather more primitive level of existence - lighting fires, doing small cooking chores like Molly's Sauce-O-matic wand, etc. would instantly become great time sucks. I wonder about small children, like little Kevin in GoF engorging the slug -t hat was reasonably harmless, if visually gross and hard on the poor slug, but what about three-year-olds throwing magical temper tantrums? Felinia _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From Malady579 at hotmail.com Thu Sep 19 02:50:17 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 02:50:17 -0000 Subject: Draco's need to be (was: Reference to Harry's pureblood status) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44196 Bugaloo 37 wrote: >>I consider Draco to exemplify the absolutely worst aspects of human nature. He is a reflection, of course, of his father. He assesses people on their heritage and financial status. Harry, of course, does the exact opposite. This is shown by who has chosen to be his two best friends: Ron Weasley (impoverished) and Hermione Granger ( a "mudblood").<< Melody writes: I think that is a bit harsh on Draco. While he is not one of my favorite characters, to say the least, I don't think his motives for hating Hermione and Ron are based solely on thier stations in life. I always felt Draco was more jealous of Ron and Hermione. If Draco had his way, he would be Harry's best friend and bask in the deflected glory that is the Harry juggernaut. Let me explain... Having the father that he has, Draco has grown up believing that he must be the best or at least better than those percieved as not...ideal as evident of the conversation overheard in Mr. Borgin's shop in CoS. Kind of a family pride and honor thing like with Neville. Draco must carry on the family torch being the only child and son. Now, when your talents are not so evident and your intelligence is about average and your looks are not earth stopping, you have to resort to one of two ways of deceiving the world you are the best. One way is to align yourself with powerful and well-known people. (Elizabeth Hurley, for example, is quite good at this.) Thus Harry is an easy target. The other way is to destroy the competition either physically or with words. Hence Draco's found love for bullying. Since Draco failed, and failed quite quickly, in his small attempt of making life long friends with famous Harry, he spends his days trying to show the world that Harry is not so great to be desired. By bringing down Harry's reputation and mystic, Draco is really accomplishing two tasks. He is, of course, bring Harry down to normal focus, but also Draco is trying to prove to himself that his deep desire to be best friends with Harry is in fact nothing more than unbridled hero worship. Also from this failed attempt of friendship, Draco is now jealous of Ron and Hermione. Which leads to the next quote... Bugaloo37 wrote: >>He refers to Hermione in the worst possible terms as a "jumped up mudblood" He obviously feels Harry's regard for Hermione is ill-placed. <> He also considers Ron a poor choice for a friend-but this is based on the poverty of Ron's family-not his heritage.<< Melody writes: Draco does not hate Ron and Hermione but is actually quite jealous of them. That is why he cuts both of them down so much. He wants to be them. They alone have manage to ensnare Harry's ear and heart. (I'm talking phileo- not ero- love. Go away all you Draco and Harry Shippers.) So Draco, in his defense to be Harry's friend, attacks the parts of Ron and Hermione that he has and they do not. By showing Harry thier faults, Draco is, in his own mind, proving his case to be Harry's close friend. (Which does butt heads with Draco's other desire to bring down Harry, but lets face it. Subconsciously, we are all at odds with our desires and are just trying to make them happen in one way or another. It is like a mental itch we just want to go away either by satisfying it or balming it.) I believe Draco's bullying is derived from this. It is Draco's only way of chopping down the other trees branches so he can be the tallest and grandest. The easiest branches to reach are the most basic and most uncontrolled in life. Hence why he goes for heredity. In this case, heredity of blood and money. Draco also seems to attack Hermione's bloodline because frankly there is little else he sees to pick. He admits this in Mr. Borgin's shop also that day. I think that is why some like the idea that Draco actually likes Hermione. His only bully-line is her heritage. It is an easy target and one that brings lots of attention. But nevertheless, Draco waves that bloody shirt ever chance he gets. (I hope that translates properly. Bloody shirt in American is not cursing but political. I promise.) As for Ron, he is the boy best friend of Harry. The position so desired by Draco. Ron's family's lack of money is a easy branch to strike. Something Ron can't help nor avoid, but also Ron gives a primal response to each and every time Draco taunts him. It feeds Draco's psyche. Why bully those that ignore you? It is the response that bullies crave. Draco gets two for the price of one with Ron. And by the way, maybe it is me, but do ya'll think Draco really has a best friend? It seems Crabbe and Goyle are really closer to each other than to Draco. Draco seems to be out on his own a lot. Surrounded by a lot of people, but they are just people. Draco may be jealous of just the friendship also. So basically, while I do see Draco as the type to just chop down everyone to make himself percieved as so great, he is particularly harsh with Harry, Ron, and Hermione. Harry for his cold shoulder, and Ron and Hermione for thier ability to aquire what he wanted. Poor Draco, the hardest life lesson is to make peace with not being the most clever, most friendly, or most famous. Melody From the.gremlin at verizon.net Thu Sep 19 03:18:37 2002 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (ats_fhc3) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 03:18:37 -0000 Subject: Snape's "mind set?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44197 Okay, I think I'm quoting Erasmas, but freya122000's name was on this too, for some reason. So, if I'm quoting the wrong person, just straighten me out >i_am_erasmaswrote: > I belive that everything Snape does, he does with a purpose. > > I'm really having a problem trying to understand what books all the > Snape apologists have read. It couldn't possibly be the same ones I > read. It is. Unless the British version of Snape is different from the American version. > > I love the depth of Snape's character, but I think he is a > reprehensible person. Probably very brave, definitely cunning, likely > admirable and deserving respect for the sacrifices he has made and > will continue to make, but how do people actually like him? I suppose his is admirable, but I've never seen anything actaully admirable about him. Well, he's smart. You could admire that. As to how we actually like him...obviously, he is not good-looking. However, personalities can make up for looks. Not in this case, though. It's just that mysterious, tall, dark-haired stranger thing. He has a shady past (and who doesn't love a "bad boy"?), he's secretive, he's a wizard in the kitchen (I'm not sure if I intended that to be a pun or not), he's funny, sarcastic, witty...I can't describe him completely. And the way JK describes him sometimes. His voice is "silky", he's always "sweeping" out of a room, his black robes "swishing" behind him. He seems rather Victorian Gothic, vampiristic, and his first speaking lines in SS/PS are just...perfect. He's describing potions as an art, a science, a serious subject...and then he throws in the bit about teaching dunderheads. > > I know there's a huge following of Snape fic writers that love to > invent ways for Snape to love and be loved. I think they're 99% > delusional, and that the majority of them are unduly influenced by > their attraction to Alan Rickman. I can sort of understand this but > those are fics and this is supposed to be a discussion of theories > about the books, is it not? Here, yes, it's the discussion of books. In the fanfic world, it's not. I've only read about one or 2 fanfics, serious fanfics, that weren't intending to be humorous, that I liked. However, I haven't read too many. As for Alan Rickman, while I like him, I think I would have liked Snape without him. In my mind, Alan Rickman and Snape are ENTIRELY separate entities. > > I can understand that there could be very good reasons for Snape to > put on an act to make the children fear him, or dislike him, or think > he's unfair, but he goes much further than that. So, for those of you > that believe Snape is acting purposefully, I invite you to come up > with a plausible reason for Snape to act the way he does in these > scenes: I don't think he's putting on an act. I think that's really him. I don't think that he feels rally bad about treating Harry and CO. the way he does, or that he sleeps in footsie pjs with pink bunny rabbits, and Fluffy his white kitty absolutely HAS to be curled up on his pillow with the purple tassels. > > 1. PoA - Snape's Grudge > > The one on one interview with Harry -- deliberately taunting Harry > about James. Whether he has a good reason to hate James or not, what > purpose could this possibly serve. Bear in mind that he is talking to > a 13 year old orphan boy about his dead parents. He hated James. We don't know why, yet, but that's just it. And James and Harry are supposedly a lot alike. I'm of the opinion that, contrary to popular belief, Lily and James WERE NOT PERFECT. They were the popular people, and Snape sat at the lunch table that everyone made fun of (ahh...memories of high school. And I had more fun at that lunch table). > > 2. GoF - Hermione's Teeth > > Mocking a young girl about a physical attribute that she's sensitive > about. This isn't severety, or favouritism, it is cruelty, with no > purpose but the joy of seeing a child hurt. I don't think he got any particular sort of pleasure out of it, he was just being a...well, mean. It's like a natural response. He doesn't really care for Hermione, she got hit with a spell after he'd just seen Teacher's Pet and Potter using magic in the hallway, which they're not supposed to do, saw that Hermione, Potter's shadow, got the short end of the stick, and just...went with it. It was more of a "too bad for you, why am I supposed to care?" > > 3. PoA - Remus Revelation > > Clearly Snape and the rest of the staff were expected to keep quiet > about Lupin being a werewolf. Him telling the Slytherins about it > would be hard to explain with anything other than childish revenge > for spoiling his misguided plans. Okay, you have it there. That WAS childish. The whole Sirius/Snape thing is all rather childish, but makes for interesting scenes. > > It boggles my mind, really, that so many HP fans can get past these > things. > > In a way I can understand how he treats Neville (presumably > a "character building" excercise. I just don't get that, but I don't believe it's a "character- building" excersise. > > He clearly has a poor understanding of Harry's character, even in the > fourth year, since he continues to attack Harry's presumed quest for > glory. Most of his attacks on Harry in class fall far from the mark > because they are a mere annoyance. The only times he gets a rise out > of Harry is when he attacks the character of his parents. Because Harry believes his parents were perfect. Sure, Snape has a twisted view of them, but he kinda knows that the Potters weren't perfect. And a lot of people have a poor understanding of Harry's character, and, Snape seems to catch Harry at a time when people are praising him for something or other. > > It seems that a lot of the theories I've seen about Snape have gone > way beyond an explanation of what has been shown so far in the books. > I guess all I'm asking is that before more theories come out that > provide a basis for Snape's behavior, take a good look at the > behavior and don't just make a theory that explains why he is stern > and doesn't shower. He's a man. He doesn't have to shower when he doesn't want to. My BF went away to college, I'm sure he was wearing underwear more than one day at a time and not showering every night. eww...And Snape's not stern, he's mean. Stern is McGonagall. I'm not entirely sure if Snape likes teaching or not. Most of the theories I saw on Hypothetical Alley, I didn't like, particularly LOLLIPOPS. I think I likes the flamingo one, though. But I join you in your plea to take a GOOD LOOK at Severus Snape, fictional book character and all-around mysterious person, and make a theory supported by his behaviors in the past four books, as well as canon. Just don't go by canon alone. -Acire, who really must stop her late night runs to the campus food place for ice cream, or else she's going to find out what they meant by the "freshmen 15". From editor at texas.net Thu Sep 19 03:41:15 2002 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 22:41:15 -0500 Subject: Late Anniversary Post! Message-ID: <009e01c25f8e$69602aa0$d97e63d1@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 44198 I lost track of the time. Here goes. *Amanda clears her throat pretentiously. There is a flurry of motion as various listmembers recognize the sound--heads bob up, looks of alarm cross faces, and there is a general wave of surreptitious sidling toward the nearest exit. Amy Z and Neil cause a bit of a distraction when both try to get out one door and they become wedged; Cindy pries them out with her paddle and all escape. Penny pretends she hears Elizabeth crying and beats a more dignified retreat. The older TBAYers quietly ease out the door and into the water on inner tubes. Caius puts on his new Inviso-Phones, starts his filks playing, and sits up alertly. The room fills with loud cracks as the list elves remember various tasks needing urgent attention and disappear. The newer listmembers look around, uneasy, and head for the doors themselves, but by this point Amanda has casually waved her wand and they have swung shut. A few remaining Geists hover by the doors and brandish balloons at the crowd, which backs up nervously and turns back to Amanda. She smiles benevolently at her alarmed captive audience and begins speaking.* I actually am two days late, but it gives the interval a nice ring: Two years and two days ago, I posted my first message to this list. Following my tradition, I now re-post it in its entirety. For those of you who consider me a Towering List Presence (sort of like that violet pudding) and an Authority On Stuff, enjoy this window back to my pre-L.O.O.N. days. For those of you who think I'm an idiot and post drivel, enjoy this confirmation. For those of you who have no idea who I am, anyway, and wonder why the hell I'm cluttering up the list, too bad--the doors are locked and you're stuck. From: Amanda Lewanski Date: Sat Sep 16, 2000 9:52 pm Subject: Hello, and a question Greeting to the list. I'm new, and I've been group-hopping trying to find the level of discussion I'd like, and you seem to be it. I hope I can contribute items of interest, too. A question---in all the groups I've observed, nobody's talking about Snape. Can I get your thoughts on him? He seems to be such a complex character---any theories (I've got a few) on *why* he stays with the good guys? Why Dumbledore trusts him? Just wondering if you were pondering what I was pondering, Amanda I was, if I count correctly, the 142nd member (or around that). So that you may honor them, these are some of the members there to meet me, whose names also now ring through these hallowed halls (or would, if I'd open the doors).....Penny; Simon; Jim Ferer; Jen P; Joywitch; Ebony; Flying Ford Anglia, Catlady; Lexicon Steve; Aberforth's Goat; KelleyElf; Sheryll; and golden faile leap out at me from a quick scan of the list. Two years and more these guys have been listening to me! So you can all just stop complaining. And put your hands down! You can't *all* need to go to the bathroom that bad. *Amanda retires with dignity and feigned deafness, ignoring the cheers and sounds of running feet as she allows the doors to open.* --Amanda, premier Snapologist, founding L.O.O.N., primaGeist, etc. From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Thu Sep 19 03:48:46 2002 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 20:48:46 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Survey In-Reply-To: <20020918023504.52307.qmail@web20901.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20020918023504.52307.qmail@web20901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2386890546.20020918204846@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44199 Okay, I'll have a go... Here are my uneducated guesses... Tuesday, September 17, 2002, 7:35:04 PM, Nicole L. wrote: > 1. What new magical place will we visit? I think Fudge is going to send Dumbledore to Azkaban for the Unauthorized Use of Veritaserum (that will be the excuse, anyway), and Harry will have to rescue him. > 2. Are any of the Dursleys wizards? Who? Aunt Marge. :) > 3. Identify the next DADA teacher. The real Alastor Moody. > 4. Which "beloved" character(s) will die? Any > other deaths, and if so, who? Dumbledore (but not until the last book -- he'll live to see V finally defeated and die in peace), maybe Hagrid, Wormtail (sacrifice for Harry), MacNair (by Buckbeak or Fluffy), one pivotal member of "the old crowd" (Snape, Moody, Lupin, Figg, or Fletcher) and one Weasley (Please Not Ron!!!). That's for the whole rest of the series -- I have no idea who will die in _OoP_. > 5. Of Lupin, Sirius, Krum, Fleur, Lockhart, Winky, > Dobby, Moody, Bagman, Madam Maxime, which characters will have > speaking lines in OoP. Sirius, Lupin, Moody, MM, Dobby. (I think Lockhart, Bagman, and Rita Skeeter are probably "throw-away" characters who may have future cameos but will not be important to the plot.) > 6. At the end of OoP, will Dumbledore be the > headmaster? Yes, but not for most of the book... It will be Lucius Malfoy! > 7. At the end of OoP, will Fudge be the Minister > of Magic? Fudge will sit comatose, still insisting V has not returned, while V causes some tragedy. Fudge will get kicked out of office for his "creative inertia". > 8. At the end of OoP, will Neville be the same > forgetful boy, or will he have changed in some way? He will gradually overcome his handicaps. > 9. At the end of OoP, will Sirius have cleared his > name? Not till the end of Book 7. > 10. Will Harry and Voldemort have a > confrontation? No -- I think this will be another "ominous interlude" book, like _PoA_. > 11. Of the following magical things, which will a > character use > or confront: pensieve, veritaserum, > boggart, Marauder's Map, > whomping willow, polyjuice potion, nifflers, > portkeys, rememberall, floo > powder, time turner, sneakoscope, foe glass, > secrecy sensor, knight bus. The Marauder's Map and new stuff! > 12. Will there be Quiddich at Hogwarts? I hope so. I don't think harry can live without it. :) (BTW, does anyone besides me think that H and V's final showdown will be fought on broomsticks?) > If so, who will be the Gryffindor Keeper? Dean Thomas. (Though he'll keep confusing it with Soccer/Football.) :) > Gryffindor Captain? Angelina. > 13. Will anyone else turn out to be an animagus? > Who? Snape! He's a bat. But it won't be another "unregistered" revelation... He's registered -- but under the name, "Perseus Evans"! > 14. Who is Mundungus Fletcher? A radical champion of Muggle/Muggle-Born Rights who thinks Arthur is too passive and compromising. (Sort of a wizard Malcolm X) > 15. Will Wormtail use his silver hand in an > important way? Not yet. -- Dave From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 19 03:54:24 2002 From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda the Witch) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 20:54:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Late Anniversary Post! In-Reply-To: <009e01c25f8e$69602aa0$d97e63d1@texas.net> Message-ID: <20020919035424.70873.qmail@web13704.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44200 Amanda Geist wrote: I lost track of the time. I actually am two days late, Two years and two days ago, I posted my first message to this list. I was, if I count correctly, the 142nd member (or around that). --Amanda, premier Snapologist, founding L.O.O.N., primaGeist, etc. Happy Anniversary of Two Years and Two Days! Where has the time flown to? May you have many more Anniversaries and all the fun of posting to go with it! I have and am still learning from this group to include many posts of yours! A big toast goes out to you, Amanda and and hope that your next year is as much fun! Schnoogles, Wanda the Witch of Revere,Massachusetts and Her Very Merry Band of Muggles 100%! "When you come to the edge of all the light you know, and are about to step off into the darkness of the unknown, faith is knowing one of two things will happen; There will be something solid to stand on, or you will be taught how to fly."......Unknown. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From carmenharms at yahoo.com Thu Sep 19 04:54:39 2002 From: carmenharms at yahoo.com (snazzzybird) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 04:54:39 -0000 Subject: FILK: I Don't Like Spiders & Snape! was: Too good a line: Call for filk! wa In-Reply-To: <007501c25f81$0bb004a0$d97e63d1@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44201 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amanda Geist" wrote: > bowl of crisps on Snape's desk> > *Amandageist pops in, in her Official Capacity, to warn the main list from > responding on any of the above!!! This has been cross-posted from Movie, go > *there* to talk about that stuff!! Or risk a water balloon.* > > Okay. > > I'm so crushed. I was certain, from the subject line, that this was going to > be one of the most memorable filks yet. Who out there *didn't* read that > line and hear the tune to "I Don't Like Spiders and Snakes"? Or am I the > only one who remembers that very odd little song? > > I'm cross-posting this to the main list so a broader audience will see that > incipient line; surely some fertile and warped imagination can write this > (Ron to be the singer, of course). Caius? Marina? You various > interchangeable Ron people? > > --Amanda snazzzybird says... Okay, how about this: Year Two is nearly ended, the basilisk is dead, Ginny is safe, and Ron is telling some of the other Gryffindors about his adventures with Harry... [to the tune of "Spiders and Snakes" by Jim Stafford] I remember when Harry P said Let's go into the forest and see What Hagrid wants us to know about He said we just need to follow a trail Of spiders, and then we won't fail To find out who's letting that monster out. And so we took a stroll, wound up down by Aragog's hole, and I said Something's got me by the shirt! We got scared and we tried to run, Aragog said Well that's no fun Said come home with me, and be my kids' dessert. And I said, "I don't like spiders and Snape I'd rather kiss an ape Than be here ? with you I don't like spiders and Snape" We managed to escape In the Anglia ? Me, Harry, and the boarhound too. Well I hung out with Harry from time to time, I even helped him commit a crime, And he said, Ain't this cool But our adventure ended up in disaster, we got caught by the Potions Master, And Snape said, I'll see you after school Made me clean bedpans, all by hand That was something I could hardly stand, And he said, you missed a spot right here I was nauseous as you might guess, still looking for a way to get out of this mess, And I said "Let's make it perfectly clear: "I don't like spiders and Snape I'd rather kiss an ape Than be here ? it's true I don't like spiders and Snape I wish I could escape The dungeon ? and this miserable job, and you." Respectfully and humbly submitted, snazzzybird, who once bought a house from a Realtor who dated Jim Stafford in Florida (or so she said). From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com Thu Sep 19 05:54:09 2002 From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 22:54:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Yule Ball (filk) Message-ID: <20020919055409.38992.qmail@web40307.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44202 Yule Ball to the tune _La Bamba_ by Los Lobos mp3 - http://home.onestop.net/rastaman/dd.html Dedicated to Nicole, who wrote a very acurate and funny filk about Lockhart recently! Great Job! (The Scene: The Yule Ball, of course) EVERYONE: Let's all go dance at the Yule Ball! Let's all hold hands at the Yule Ball! FOUR CHAMPIONS: But we champs four need to start all the dancing. HARRY (shaking his head, thinking bitterly to himself): Can't believe I am dancing with Parvati Patil, but please, no romancing! Some may think she's entrancing, but she's not Cho, Who told me "no" -- she's got a beau. I wish I could face Voldy, or better yet a Dementor, than be here tonight. (Parvati leaves to go dance with a Beauxbaton boy) I'm in deep sh** with Pavarti, that's right. Yule Ball, Yule Ball, No fun at all. Yule ball, Yule ball, please end! RON: Let's just escape this dumb Yule Ball! I'm in the mood for a real brawl -- an argument with that Hermy-oh-ninny, dressing up for the en'my with silky smooth hair, done up with a flair. (Some guy with a spanish guitar is playing a pretty cool solo while following Harry and Ron up to the common room.) RON (To Hermione in the common room): Why did you go with that "Vicky"? HERMIONE You know his name isn't "Vicky"! Victor before you did ask gentlemanly. Don't you know what you should do? The first to ask me had better be you-- before anyone else! You stupid git! I'm no last resort, don't you get it? HARRY (while climbing the stairs to bed, leaving them to it) Yule Ball, Yule ball, more like "you'll brawl"... she "got" it all... to bed I'll crawl... (Harry stops on the steps and turns back around when he hears a whole mariachi band playing a happy spanish tune in the common room. Harry shrugs, too tired to care, and resumes his trip up to bed.) ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* "Tut, tut --- hardly any of you remembered that my favorite color is *lilac*. I say so in Year with the Yeti." --Gilderoy Lockhart, COS --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From doffy99 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 19 08:44:40 2002 From: doffy99 at yahoo.com (doffy99) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 08:44:40 -0000 Subject: Survey In-Reply-To: <2386890546.20020918204846@mindspring.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44203 Okay, I might as well state my opinion. I LOVE stating my opinion. :) > Tuesday, September 17, 2002, 7:35:04 PM, Nicole L. wrote: > 1. What new magical place will we visit? My guess, is that we will visit numerous places in the next book. Including Godric's Hollow and the hospital where Neville's parents are and POSSIBLY Azkaban. Probably to chase away the Dementors who will rejoin Voldemort. > 2. Are any of the Dursleys wizards? Who? Not a chance. > 3. Identify the next DADA teacher. The real Alastor Moody. > 4. Which "beloved" character(s) will die? Any other deaths, and > if so, who? Dumbledore, Ron OR Hermione will die by the end of the series. And Neville. > 5. Of Lupin, Sirius, Krum, Fleur, Lockhart, Winky, > Dobby, Moody, Bagman, Madam Maxime, which characters will have > speaking lines in OoP. Lupin, sirius, Winky, Dobby, Moody and on a guess Krum will be back. Maybe not in OoP, but he will be back. And I think Fleur may well return in year 6. Possibly as a teacher. > 6. At the end of OoP, will Dumbledore be the headmaster? Yes. > 7. At the end of OoP, will Fudge be the Minister > of Magic? I think that this will be one of the major plots in the next book. will be WHO will be MOM? Fudge will be MOM at the beginning of the book but will be up for re-election. Everyone will of course want Dumbledore to run against Fudge. Dumbledore will, as he has in the past, refuse. They will search and high and low for a good candidate but never find one until Dumbledore RECOMENDS one. Arthur Weasley. Arthur will win the election at the end of the book. In book 6 he will be MOM. Where he will contact the giants and get rid of the dementors. > 8. At the end of OoP, will Neville be the same > forgetful boy, or will he have changed in some way? Neville will die by the end of the series. By the end of OoP, I think he will have proven himself a little more, probably excelling in ONE FIELD and sucking at the rest and will get a little more respect. But will still be unsure of himself. > 9. At the end of OoP, will Sirius have cleared his > name? I have to agree with an earlier poster. Not until Book 7 will Sirius be cleared and Harry will leave the Dursleys. > 10. Will Harry and Voldemort have a > confrontation? I don't think they will have a direct confrontation in the next book. They will have a FINAL battle by the end of the series of course. > 11. Of the following magical things, which will a > character use or confront: pensieve, veritaserum, > boggart, Marauder's Map, > whomping willow, polyjuice potion, nifflers, > portkeys, rememberall, floo > powder, time turner, sneakoscope, foe glass, > secrecy sensor, knight bus. Not an easy question. The pensieve will not be seen. Veritaserum, probably will be used. Boggarts, NOT! Marauders Map, yes, but not in the normal way. :) Floo powder will re-appear. Harry will finally learn that Sneakoscope that he's got, DOES Work! The foe glass will make an appearance but nothing more. > 12. Will there be Quiddich at Hogwarts? I don't think JKR would leave us without Quidditch for two books in a row. So yes, there will be quidditch. One of the younger weasleys will become the New Keeper, my guess is both Ron and Ginny will try out. Ron won't know Ginny is after the job. Ginny will get it which will Tick Ron off. New captain: Angelina. > 13. Will anyone else turn out to be an animagus? No one we've met. > 14. Who is Mundungus Fletcher? Not enough information to even make a guess. > 15. Will Wormtail use his silver hand in an > important way? While Wormtail may make an appearance, I doubt he will have need of his silver hand. -Jeff From Ali at zymurgy.org Thu Sep 19 09:09:22 2002 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (alhewison) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 09:09:22 -0000 Subject: Name meanings: Arabella Figg/ Hagrid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44204 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jesta Hijinx" wrote: I've been reading all of these posts with the overall sensation that JKR is not a Latinist, and that she tends to write with a light touch - sometimes skimming the surface of a deeper meaning in Latin or another tongue, but I really don't think that she spent hours poring over Latin grammars building in levels of meaning for us to unravel. I really don't. This doesn't mean I don't respect the layers and levels of meaning she *has* built in, but basically a lot of the stuff she writes can be read very fast as a tongue-in-cheek. I think that's the way it is with some of these spells - and I think the names are brilliant. I particularly like Mobiliarbus - move the tree, which may or may not be grammatically precise, but does convey pretty clearly to a reader with a bit of Latin what the sense is. Ali says:- Funnily enough your mentioning the "Mobiliarbus" spell is proof of JKR's lack of Latin knowledge. The Latin word of tree is "arbor", not "arbus". It is often used as an eg of "3rd group" Latin nouns. IMHO If JKR had studied Latin she would *not* have made that mistake. Instead she would have said something like "mobilaarbor". I however tend to think that with the "name games" that she has undoubtedly played that she has not been going through her Latin dictionary at all. She is much more likely to have used a Name dictionary. Given that in a local bookshop I saw 10 different name dictionaries there is plenty of choice out there. Her Latin dictionary appears to have been used fairly extensive for spells. I like the results even if they sometimes appear "wrong" to a LOON like me! Ali From kristin at jesusphreaks.org Thu Sep 19 04:35:45 2002 From: kristin at jesusphreaks.org (Risti) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 04:35:45 -0000 Subject: Life+Loyalty: A Voldemort/Dumbledore Connection Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44205 Ok, let me first of all start off by saying I'm new here, so forgive me if this has already been discussed, and possibly give me a guideline as to when. I would have searched your archives, but well, reading thousands of emails isn't quite something I have the time to do(unfortunately, as I'm sure they are all fascinating.) In any case, I have a theory to expound upon, and I would love to here your opinions of it. It began with me trying to find the answer to a question that I'm sure has plagued most of us:Why is Voldemort scared of Dumbledore? The answer that I've found becomes more and more plausible every time I think about it. First, a quote from GoF, as Voldemort is explaining to his followers how he survived the rebound of the curse he performed on Harry, "I miscalculated, my friends, I admit it. My curse was deflected by the woman's foolish sacrifice, and it rebounded upon me. Aah... pain beyond pain, my friends; nothing could have prepared me for it. I was ripped from my body, I was less than spirit, less than the meanest ghost ... but still, I was alive. What I was, even I do not know ... I, who have gone further than anybody along the path that leads to immortality. You know my goal - to conquer death. And now, I was tested, and it appeared that one or more of my experiments had worked ... for I had not been killed, though the curse should have done it..."(GoF Hardback Canadian/British Edition, pg 566) This was the quote that put it all in perspective. Think about this as I go through a few more things first. Fact: Pheonix's are magical birds, whose traits include extreme loyalty and the ability to return to life from the ashes, essentially meaning eternal life. Fact: Dumbledore has a Pheonix, named Fawkes, who gave two feathers to be made into magical cores for wands. Fact: A wand is very important to a wizard's ability to do magic, and the type of wand, and especially wand core, can affect a witch/wizard's magic(The whole weighing of the wand scene proves this, as well as the confrontation between Voldemort and Harry) Fact: Voldemort's wand contains one of those feathers that belonged to Fawkes, a Pheonix who is loyal to Dumbledore. Does this mean then, that Voldemort's wand core, the core of his magical ability, is loyal to Dumbledore? How would a wand made up of a feather from a bird loyal to Dumbledore react if asked to perform a killing curse upon its master? Now ponder this. I will admit that this next section is much less grounded in fact, and more in my overactive imagination then the last. Approximately fifty years ago, Tom Riddle came to Hogwarts, and the Chamber of Secret's was opened. Dumbledore was the one teacher who didn't trust Riddle as much as the others. In book one, according to his chocolate frog card, Dumbledore defeated the dark wizard Grindlewald in 1945. Whether you use the (flawed) Death-Day- based timeline or not, this is still approximately 50 years before the events of the books, maybe a little more. So end the facts, and so begins my imagination. I think that one of the things Dumbledore discovered during his battle with Grindlewald was the true nature, or at least lineage, of Tom M. Riddle. I also think that he saved his life from Grindlewald, who wanted to kill off any competition in the way of dark wizards. This would definately make Tom Riddle, a.k.a. Lord Voldemort, in Dumbledore's debt. Using a theory I have about Snape and the Potters(ask me about it, it's off topic for here), and the Pettigrew-Harry incident, I think that it is impossible to kill someone who saved your life. So now let me go back to what I began with. Life, and the search for it. Voldemort admits that it is his goal to conquer death. Would it not make sense then that his arch-enemy would be the person who has succeeded in doing this? Albus Dumbledore, along with his defeat of the dark wizard Grindlewald, is also famous for something else:his work on alchemy with his partner, Nicolas Flamel. Nicolas Flamel is holds the only KNOWN(I'll get into that in a later post...) Philosopher's stone. The one thing that can truly conquer death. Unless of course, it's the tears of a Pheonix. Kinda makes you wonder just what the Order of the Pheonix is, doesn't it? Kinda makes ME wonder what the twelve uses of dragon's blood are...after all, they're the only other thing Dumbledore's famous for. ~Risti From suzchiles at pobox.com Thu Sep 19 13:26:08 2002 From: suzchiles at pobox.com (Suzanne Chiles) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 06:26:08 -0700 Subject: Happy Birthday, Hermione Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44206 Today is Hermione's birthday, so Happy Birthday, Hermione. It's also my birthday, and it's true that I was a lot like Hermione when I was in school. Suzanne From crussell at arkansas.net Thu Sep 19 14:39:12 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 14:39:12 -0000 Subject: Reference to Harry's pureblood status (was: Is Harry a pureblood?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44207 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Ferer" wrote: > Doesn't that say that he considers Harry of a higher status than > Hermione? I understand that he could only consider Harry a "half- > blood," but his willingness at first to 'befriend' Harry suggests he > thinks Harry is a half-blood - not that Draco's opinion is of much > consequence. Thanks for the response. I was glad to see that even though we may disagree on minor points concerning the "blood-type" issue, we do agree that such classification of people is absolutely repugnant. There could always be a discussion as to Draco's motivation for this behavior-but what his motivation is-be it jealosy or just pure spite- can only be completely discounted. There can never be any justification for this type of behavior-whatever the circumstances. I do agree with what you said about Draco's opinion- it does not count for much; however, that does not remove its ability to injure. I know that quoting movies is frowned upon-but here it goes. In the movie "Guess who's coming to dinner?", one of the characters stated: (paraphrasing) that people who thought that their race was superior to others were wrong- sometimes ignorant-sometimes hateful-but always, always- wrong" IMO, that is the bottom line- JKR has let us know under no uncertain terms is "blood-typing" ever a justifiable activity in the WW or anywhere else for that matter. We do not have to look too far back in our own world's history to find examples of what happens when this type of classification is acted upon. The WW has already reaped what it has sown- and I think, if you trust what JKR has told us, and I do- the reaping has only just begun. bugaloo37 From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Thu Sep 19 15:18:18 2002 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 15:18:18 -0000 Subject: Crystal, That Is! (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44208 Continuing to work my way through the top hits of 1964.... Crystal, That Is! To the tune of The Shoop Shoop Song (It's In His Kiss) by Betty Everett Hear the original at: http://www.buffnet.net/~ambrosia/page7.htm NOTE: This song gets its title from the fact that the back-up chorus (here represented by Lavendar and Parvati) sing "Shoop Shoop" as the soloist sings her more extended refrains. I have not written this out: those familiar with the song can insert the necessary Shoops with their Inner Ears. Dedicated to our 142nd member, Amanda G! THE SCENE. Divination Class. Enter LAVENDER BROWN & PARVATI PATIL, to earnestly entreat of PROF. TRELAWNEY the secrets of her success LAVENDER & PARVATI Can you predict? We want to know! Can you tell what tomorrow holds? Is it in tea leaves? TRELAWNEY Oh no, they are all wet LAVENDER & PARVATI Should we stars believe? TRELAWNEY Oh, they're for space cadets If you want to spy with your Inner Eye Just use the Crys LAVENDER & PARVATI Crystal, that is! Oh, yeah! Oh, is it in the flames? TRELAWNEY Oh, no, they are too hot LAVENDER & PARVATI Should we palms proclaim? TRELAWNEY I think I'd rather not If you want to speak of wazzup next week Just use the Crys LAVENDER & PARVATI Crystal, that is! TRELAWNEY Oh, just use the Crys LAVENDER & PARVATI Crystal, that is! TRELAWNEY Oh, take it and peer in close And find out what you want to know With that orb, you'll the future quiz When you See in Crys! LAVENDER & PARVATI How about entrails of birds? TRELAWNEY Oh, no, that's far too crass! You won't earn a passin' grade in my class If you wanna jog through futures unfogged It's in the Crys ALL Crystal, that is! Oh, yeah, it's in the Crys! Crystal, that is! (Instrumental bridge) TRELAWNEY Oh, take it and peer in close And find out what you want to know Through the orb, you will learn it all Once you have the balls LAVENDER & PARVATI How about the Tarot cards? TRELAWNEY Oh, they're a pack of Fools! You won't earn a passin' grade in this school If you wanna say what happens next Monday It's in the Crys ALL Crystal, that is! Oh, yeah, it's in the Crys..... - CMC (who loves filking Trelawney) HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From cindysphynx at comcast.net Thu Sep 19 16:00:20 2002 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 16:00:20 -0000 Subject: Life+Loyalty: A Voldemort/Dumbledore Connection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44209 Risti wrote: > Ok, let me first of all start off by saying I'm new here, Welcome aboard, Risti! >Why is Voldemort scared of Dumbledore? > Fact: Voldemort's wand contains one of those feathers that >belonged to Fawkes, a Pheonix who is loyal to Dumbledore. > > Does this mean then, that Voldemort's wand core, the core of his > magical ability, is loyal to Dumbledore? How would a wand made up >of a feather from a bird loyal to Dumbledore react if asked to >perform a killing curse upon its master? Oooh, how interesting! Can wands be loyal to the masters of the magical creatures that donated their cores? Boy, I'm not sure. It is certainly the case that there is some sort of bond between wizard and wand, and there can be a bond between wands that share the same core. Given that the core of a wand influences the, er, personality of the wand, this theory does make a lot of sense, I think. The one thing I can't sort out, though, is why the connection between Dumbledore/Fawkes and Voldemort's wand would cause Voldemort to fear Dumbledore. I'm not sure we can say that Voldemort knew the origin of the phoenix feather in his own wand (can we?). Even post- GoF, I don't think there's any canon to suggest that Voldemort knows why the duel with Harry went so very badly. Presumably, Voldemort would know that his wand has a Phoenix feather, and he could assume that Harry's wand must have the same core, but Voldemort would have to take quite a leap to conclude that the phoenix feathers came from Fawkes and that Dumbledore owns Fawkes. We do know that Dumbledore knew about the origin of the phoenix feather in Voldemort's wand, though. Dumbledore didn't seem at all surprised that the duel generated the priori incantantem effect, after all. If it is true that Voldemort's wand really can't defeat Dumbledore, then one has to wonder if Dumbledore has some obligation to attempt to dispatch Voldemort. So (and now I am climbing *way* out on a limb), maybe Risti has cracked the mystery of what "Order of the Phoenix" might mean. I've always thought "Order" would mean a group of wizards who band together to fight Voldemort. Perhaps instead "Order" means heirarchy -- pecking order, if you will. Dumbledore, being the owner of Fawkes is at the top of the Order of the Phoenix. Voldemort, having only a single one of Fawkes' feathers, is lower in the pecking order, as is Harry. Yeah. I'm sure that's it. ;-) Cindy From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 19 16:02:28 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 16:02:28 -0000 Subject: Reference to Harry's pureblood status (was: Is Harry a pureblood?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44210 Ali recalled an interview in which JKR called Harry a half- blood. And I posted the snip from the interview where JKR says that Harry "finds out that he is a half-blood: to a wizard like Lucius Malfoy, he will never be a true wizard, because his mother was of Muggle parentage." And I then commented: > So I think the definition depends on who's defining it. To > Riddle/Voldemort and Lucius Malfoy, who are filled with > prejudice, a wizard is only a pure-blood if there are no Muggles > from which they are descended. But to more enlightened individuals, > Harry is a pure-blood because both of his parents were wizards. And bugaloo37 responded: > There is something I disagree with you about. As far as defining > the terms pure-blood and half-blood, IMO, it is Voldemort and his > crew that have established the definitions. I cannot recall that at > anytime is Harry referred to as being "pure-blood" -either by his > friends or his enemies. Harry's friends do not use the terms pure- > blood, half-blood or mudblood to classify individuals. These are > terms used and therefore, defined by Voldemort and the DE's. And Jim asked: > Well, JKR said it, so what can I say? Thanks for finding the quote. > But it leaves a question pretty much like the previous question: If > Harry, the son of a witch and wizard, is a half-blood, then what's > Seamus Finnegan, the son of a wizard and a Muggle? Now me again: I agree with bugaloo37 that Voldemort and the DEs (as Darrin would have said, good name for a band?) have come up with the definitions. But in reading GoF just this morning, I came across a passage in which Hagrid uses the term pureblood: When HRH go to see Hagrid in his hut after Skeeter reveals that Hagrid is a half-giant, Hagrid tells Harry "You know, I'd like to see you win this tournament ? it would prove that you don't have to be a pureblood to do it"(liberal translation ? I didn't bring GoF to work with me today ). Of course, this quote completely contradicts what I said earlier about the non-DEs believing Harry to be a pureblood (unless we view Hagrid as "unenlightened")! I think we need to look at the context of what JKR said in that interview. After she refers to Harry as a half-blood, she immediately follows this statement with a reference to Lucius Malfoy not believing him to be a true wizard because of his mother's heritage. I think this is an important qualifier ? since it's only to scum like Lucius that a wizard's heritage matters, one's blood status is really fairly irrelevant to the rest of the wizarding population. The only time I see that it is relevant to non-scumbags is when such prejudice leads to violence and death. I'm also recalling at the end of GoF when Dumbledore tells Fudge that Fudge has "always been concerned with the purity of blood." To me, this puts Fudge squarely in the company of Lucius et al to whom such purity matters (and provides more fuel for the Evil!Fudge theory!). ~Phyllis From crussell at arkansas.net Thu Sep 19 16:05:42 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 16:05:42 -0000 Subject: Life+Loyalty: A Voldemort/Dumbledore Connection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44211 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Risti" wrote: > It began with me trying to find the answer > to a question that I'm sure has plagued most of us:Why is Voldemort > scared of Dumbledore? > So now let me go back to what I began with. Life, and the search for it. Voldemort admits that it is his goal to conquer death. Would it not make sense then that his arch-enemy would be the person who has succeeded in doing this? Albus Dumbledore, along with his defeat of the dark wizard Grindlewald, is also famous for something else:his work on alchemy with his partner, Nicolas Flamel. Nicolas Flamel is holds the only KNOWN(I'll get into that in a later post...) > Philosopher's stone. The one thing that can truly conquer death. > Unless of course, it's the tears of a Pheonix. Kinda makes you wonder just what the Order of the Pheonix is, doesn't > it? > > ~Risti The theory of whether or not Dumbledore has achieved some level of immortality has not been discussed since I joined in 7/01(that I am aware of). IMO, your theory could go a long way in explaining Voldemort's hostility towards Dumbledore but not necessarily his fear. IMO, you could certainly be right that Dumbledore does possess some knowledge concerning immortality and that it is tied in some way to the phoenix (the connection between the phoenix and rebirth is simply too obvious not to be significant). But what is preventing Voldemort from walking up to Dumbledore and taking it right out of his hands-so to speak? Obviously, IMO, we have only scratched the surface of our knowledge of Dumbledore's actual magical abilities. Hagrid has stated that Hogwarts is safe as long as Dumbledore is there. In CoS, when Harry tells Tom Riddle that Dumbledore is the greatest wizard-he does not refute it. He merely states that Dumbledore is not here right now. IMO, this does seem to be an acknowledgement from Tom Riddle/Voldemort that a certain amount of fear of Dumbledore does exist. Who Dumbledore is and what powers he possesses is another one of JKR's mysteries that keeps us guessing and longing for the next book. Some have stated that overemphasis of Dumbledore's abilities takes the spotlight away from Harry-I do not see it that way. Of course, Harry is significant-but just how he is- we're still not sure-are we? Harry is surrounded by a multitude of characters-figuring out what importance each one has in regards to the final outcome of the series is part of the fun. Harry will always be the center of the WW as far as we the readers are concerned. We see the WW through his eyes. Saying Dumbledore's powers will play an important part in the final showdown, IMO, does not take anything way from Harry, who I believe will be the ultimate defeat of Voldemort. bugaloo37 From cindysphynx at comcast.net Thu Sep 19 16:42:40 2002 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 16:42:40 -0000 Subject: Late Anniversary Post! In-Reply-To: <009e01c25f8e$69602aa0$d97e63d1@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44212 Cindy shifts uncomfortably in her chair, her finger poised over the "Send" button. She also recently celebrated her anniversary on HPfGU. But it was not a two-year anniversary. No, Cindy has only been cluttering the lists for a single year. A very, very long year, some might say. Nevertheless, Cindy feels obligated to observe the time-honored tradition of humiliating herself in front of over 4,000 list members by scouring the archives for her very first post and dragging it out into the light where everyone can see it. Please. Say nothing. Just . . . just look away while you still can. Cindy -- still angling for her L.O.O.N. credentials and looking hopefully at Amandageist *************** Message 24,603 From: cynthiaanncoe at h... Date: Tue Aug 21, 2001 10:01 am Subject: Black vs. Pettigrew: Why was Black Laughing? When Black hunts down Pettigrew in the street, Pettigrew blasts himself and a street full of muggles. In PA, we are twice told that Black stood there laughing when this happened, and was still laughing when he was arrested. (Stan on Knight Bus and conversation in Hogsmeade). Why would Black be laughing? Thirteen innocent bystanders are dead, he has learned that his old friend was a Dark Wizard spy who betrayed Lily and James, and he recently learned James and Lilly are dead. He must know at this point that he'll be blamed for the betrayal (he won't be needing the motorcycle anymore). What's so funny about that? I haven't heard this discussed before, and I can't figure it out. Any help out there? From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Thu Sep 19 15:24:57 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 16:24:57 +0100 Subject: Hogwarts Board of Governors (was Re: DADA...) In-Reply-To: <005701c25489$07ce2b80$badef718@kzo.chartermi.net> References: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20020919152631.00a36ca0@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 44213 (I'm desperately trying to catch up on old posts; I've been otherwise engaged for the last couple of days and promise that I'll eventually get around to commenting in the etymology threads I started!) In a rather old post (a couple of weeks back), yr awen asked a question I can't see anyone has answered (I'm delaying sending this until I've caught up - perhaps someone *has* answered it!): >I would imagine that *Dumbledore* considers DADA to be an important part >of the curriculum -- if he didn't, he wouldn't have gone through all that >effort to get Lupin on staff. I think he's sensing the potential for >Voldemort's return and is taking steps to prepare the students, but finds >himself running up against the recalcitrance of the school board. This >brings me to a question for the British contingent of the list: is the >Board of Governors a fixture in public schools(that is, I guess, >fee-paying boarding schools)? If so, do they exclusively control the >hiring of new faculty, or do they take the Headmaster's suggestion and >then vote on it? Or does the Headmaster/mistress exercise that power and >deal with the board's furor later on? The Board of Governors is a fixture in *all* English & Welsh schools, regardless of whether they're state- or privately- funded, day schools or boarding (I'm not entirely sure of the specifics of the Scottish situation; the legal and educational system in Scotland is slightly different). My sister is on the Board of her son's (state-funded, primary) school and all recruitment, from the headmaster down to the cleaning staff, is the responsibility of the Board. My nephew's school was brand-spanking-new and the Board was formed (from local residents and parents of potential pupils) even before the building was finished; the Board even determined who got the contracts for landscaping and interior finishing, and what the specific layout was going to be, although before building completion, they appointed the headmaster who was consulted on every detail. When it came to individual teachers, the headmaster was part of the interviewing process (after all, he's the one with the teaching experience and he's the one who has to manage the staff!), but it is the Board who employs them and makes the final choice, not the headmaster. AFAIK, my sister's Board has never yet vetoed the headmaster's recommendations when it came to hiring teachers, although they would be within their rights to do so. Private schools are run in exactly the same way; in fact, the Board of Governors becomes even more important, as private schools are invariably set up as charitable foundations (oh, the irony! Rich people depending on charitable status!) and the Board of Governors is usually also the Charitable Foundation's Trustees (or at least the Trustees are a sub-section of the Board of Governors). They are therefore responsible not only for teaching quality, but spending the money wisely and the reputation of the school. In the case of Hogwarts staff appointments, I'm sure that having appointed a headmaster, the Board largely leave individual staffing to him, and just rubber-stamp his decisions. However, because the wizarding community is quite closed, I would expect everyone to know everyone else and Lupin's employment doubtless caused more than a few raised eyebrows. I can't believe that *nobody* knew about his lycanthropy! As a wealthy pillar of wizarding society (and a son at the school), I'm sure that Lucius Malfoy really went to town on Dumbledore after Lupin's firing, and I'm surprised he didn't do so at the time of his hiring. This may yet become a minor plot point... From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Thu Sep 19 16:56:39 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 17:56:39 +0100 Subject: JKR interview re. Stouffer & Book Five Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20020919175241.00a499b0@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 44214 I realise this is probably off-topic on the main list, but it's a lot easier for me to post here rather than to OT-Chatter, so apologies in advance. I know everyone will be interesed in this. I do suggest, though, that if anyone wants to comment, it should be done to the OT list. I hope the Magical Moderators will forgive me. :-) (I'm trying to catch up with current conversations and will be contributing later!) For anyone who missed it (including just about anyone outside the UK!) here's an MP3 recording of the JKR interview which has just been transmitted on BBC's Newsround: http://plum.cream.org/HP/jkr190902.mp3 Enjoy! (it's about 2.5MB and lasts 1 min 47 secs). For anyone who can't download the whole file, Apart from talking about the conclusion of the Stouffer case (nothing really new there), she was asked about Book Five. - it's basically finished (it "has a beginning, middle and end") but JKR is "a perfectionist, and wants it to be just right". - it's going to be GoF-sized! ("I originally thought it would be about Azkaban length, but it's already a lot longer than that") - no news on when it's going to be out ("I don't want to give a date because if I don't make it, a lot of people will be upset") (any website linking directly to that file without acknowledging its source is going to be in for a VERY hard time. In any case, the file's location will change later this evening) From virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com Thu Sep 19 17:10:53 2002 From: virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com (Megan) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 17:10:53 -0000 Subject: Happy Birthday, Hermione In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44215 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Suzanne Chiles" wrote: > Today is Hermione's birthday, so Happy Birthday, Hermione. > It's also my birthday, and it's true that I was a lot like Hermione when I > was in school. > > Suzanne Sounds like a great time to drudge up 1979 vs. 1980. *grins* Happy TWENTY-THIRD birthday, Hermione! *on-topic* Ermmmm, Hogwarts is September-to-September school system. Why would Hermione be different? She's not. Therefore, she's 23! -Megan From hp_lexicon at yahoo.com Thu Sep 19 17:36:01 2002 From: hp_lexicon at yahoo.com (hp_lexicon) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 17:36:01 -0000 Subject: JKR interview re. Stouffer & Book Five In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20020919175241.00a499b0@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44216 A transcript is available here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/uk/newsid_2269000/2269270.stm I have already noted a few facts and added them to the Lexicon. Gee, makes me wish for thost exciting days after GF came out when there were new interviews every so often and we all started debating all the new little details she revealed. Nothing earth-shattering here, except maybe that the book will be as long as GF. Now I'm grinning from ear to ear and trying to get back to work... Steve From jodel at aol.com Thu Sep 19 17:38:03 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 13:38:03 EDT Subject: Snape's "mind set" Message-ID: <34.2db2f670.2abb657b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44217 Y'know, it occurs to me (and probably a lot of other people who are engaged in phrasing it differently) that there could be a rather interesting double-bluff going on with Snape's vicious behavior vis-a-vis the Hogwarts students. It is NOT all an act, but, nevertheless, he IS acting. And it DOES serve a purpose. I also believe that he has Dumbledore's tacit go-ahead for it, although Dumbledore doesn't exactly aprove of his actions. What he is doing is to very deliberately NOT distance himself from his past. He is rubbing the kids' noses in it. With his basic temprament, and in his position as head of Slytherin, the chances of his actually living his past down are vanishingly small to begin with. Even if he behaved the perfect gent (which, with his disposition, would be a strain -- he is not a *nice* man) there would still be rumors flying about of his DE background. And it would take next to no effort to confirm those rumors to anyone who decided to investigate. To the wizarding world, he is always going to be an ex-Death Eater. It stands to reason that Albus took him on staff with the understanding that he would do *something* to discourage other young people from making the same mistake he did. He's a Slytherin, not a social justice-seeking Gryffandor. The Slytherin kids with DE connections are probably already a lost cause. It isn't their own choices which are going to be exercised. Playing the wise and kindly councelor to dissuade them from taking that step isn't going to do anything but send a message back to their parents which will get him targeted for elimination. But, by ghod, he can make an impression on the students of the OTHER three houses. And the Slyths can give him a hand by helping spread and support the rumors. He intends to send them all a clear, unambiguouis message. ("Play to your strengths".) If they want to see a Death Eater, they will GET a Death Eater. And just see how well they like it. Every day of the week for seven years those kids are getting an up close and personal demonstration of just what a Death Eeater is, with ALL the pettiness, spite, partiality, injustice, treachery, contempt and cruelty on full display. You want to be a Death Eater someday? You want to have to work with people like this? You want to have to even ASSOCIATE with people like this? (If this is the *tame* virus what must the actual disease be like?) He doesn't want the brats to like him. He wants them to LOATHE him. And more than that, he wants them to REMEMBER him. And, by ghod, he is going to put on a show. And maybe when some smooth-tongued Voldemort supporter comes around trying to recruit some promising young Gryff or 'Puff or 'Claw, maybe the impression will have been indelible enough to give them pause before being swept off their feet. And maybe they will pass the word on someone to watch out for. And, who knows, maybe by counter example he can even reach a few of the Slyths. Besides, it won't hurt them to learn to perform delicate work under pressure. There are bastards out in the real world too, after all. So, with all these justifications in mind, he has given himself a free ticket to play the bastard and act out every natural frustration to the top of his bent. Besides, he suspects he probably is a bully, however well he may dress it up in fine linen (and I think he probably does dress it up in fine linen. He isn't all THAT self-aware). If he hadn't been he probably wouldn't have been so quick to sign up with Voldemort in the first place. He ENJOYS terrorising adolescents. He LIKES to tormenting Longbottom. He looks forward to the opportunity to needle Potter -- who he honestly resents, and can stand to be taken down a peg, in his oppinion -- and he was positively hugging himself with glee on the red-letter day that he actually managed to make Granger *cry*. In short, Snape is having a ball. (The rest of the staff, who know what is going on, are probably scandalously amused by his antics as well, and Dumbledore trusts him.) And Rowling is having a ball writing him. And so are we in reading him. And when someone does such a good job of entertaining you, you just can't help but like them... -JOdel, who also is very fond of Sir Harry Padget Flashman. From fyredriftwood at yahoo.com Thu Sep 19 18:03:44 2002 From: fyredriftwood at yahoo.com (Fyre Wood) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 18:03:44 -0000 Subject: The Draco and Harry saga (was Re: Draco's need to be) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44218 Melody kindly pointed out a few things, that I wish to reply to" She first replies to this statement made by Bugaloo 37: > >>I consider Draco to exemplify the absolutely worst aspects of human > nature. He is a reflection, of course, of his father. He assesses > people on their heritage and financial status. Harry, of course, does > the exact opposite. This is shown by who has chosen to be his two best > friends: Ron Weasley (impoverished) and Hermione Granger ( a > "mudblood").<< > > > Melody then replied with: > I think that is a bit harsh on Draco. While he is not one of my > favorite characters, to say the least, I don't think his motives for > hating Hermione and Ron are based solely on thier stations in life. > I always felt Draco was more jealous of Ron and Hermione. If Draco > had his way, he would be Harry's best friend and bask in the deflected > glory that is the Harry juggernaut. Fyre Wood (Me) Puts in her two cents: Melody got it exactly right, in my opinion. Draco doesn't hate Harry that much, but rather detests Hermione and Ron with a passion. He hates Ron because he's Harry's best friend and he hates Hermione because she's the only student who has higher grades than he does. In order for Draco to hurt Harry, he insults Hermione and Ron... meaning that he does it indirectly, intentionally. He knows better than to cause pain to Potter directly, but rather uses the "Hermione Card" and the "Ron Card" repeatedly. I think if he had the chance, Draco would cling on to Harry instantly. He would use Harry's fame to his own benefit, and would more than likely make it easier to hand Harry over to Voldy. Had Harry taken Draco's hand, could this have happened? Draco: "Let's have a sleep over at my house!" Harry: "Okay!" (Harry arrives and sees Death Eaters ready to kill him) Draco: "This was a trap... bye bye Potter!" Harry: "Oh crap. I should have stayed Ron's friend." Of course this probably wouldn't have happened. By taking Draco's hand in friendship, Harry would have gone into Slytherin and probably the stone would have been stolen, and the like. _______________________ Melody Then Continues her post: >>"Draco does not hate Ron and Hermione but is actually quite jealous of > them. That is why he cuts both of them down so much. > > He wants to be them. > > They alone have manage to ensnare Harry's ear and heart. (I'm talking > phileo- not ero- love. Go away all you Draco and Harry Shippers.) <<" My only thought: Geeze... you believe in one shipping, and everyone hates you for it. _______________________________ She then continues with this: >>>> As for Ron, he is the boy best friend of Harry. The position so > desired by Draco. Ron's family's lack of money is a easy branch to > strike. Something Ron can't help nor avoid, but also Ron gives a > primal response to each and every time Draco taunts him. It feeds > Draco's psyche. Why bully those that ignore you? It is the response > that bullies crave. Draco gets two for the price of one with Ron. <<<<<<< Fyre Wood (me) replies: Yes, Draco *does* bully Ron time and time again because Ron *does* give Draco that desired reaction. Notice that Draco has layed off of Neville since Neville attempted to fight Draco/Crabbe/Goyle in book 1 under the bleachers during that Quidditch game. The only ones who seem to bully Neville are infact Harry and Ron... who sort of treat him as an inferior. _______________________________ Melody's Last Point: >>>>>> And by the way, maybe it is me, but do ya'll think Draco really has a > best friend? It seems Crabbe and Goyle are really closer to each > other than to Draco. Draco seems to be out on his own a lot. > Surrounded by a lot of people, but they are just people. Draco may be > jealous of just the friendship also.<<<<<<<< Draco doesn't have a best friend, but rather is alone. Crabbe and Goyle are more like one person to me, and they/it/whatever seem to tend to stick together. In CoS, Draco mentions that he was looking all over for them when Harry and Ron turned into C & G with the Polyjuice Potion. Perhaps Crabbe and Goyle do this all the time because Draco doesn't seem surprised. He orders them around like body guards and he doesn't seem close to anyone. I could see Pansy Parkinson as a possible best friend substitute, however I think she is the equivillant of Draco, but a female version. They're both described as being the leaders of their own little Slytherin gangs in book 3... however I doubt that Pansy really has a best friend either. Then again, we don't hear much of the Slytherins... Dude, we need to go back to the Slytherin Common room to solve this mystery!! Okay Okay, Melody Brought up one last point: > > Poor Draco, the hardest life lesson is to make peace with not being > the most clever, most friendly, or most famous. Yes, Melody. I applaud you for realizing that. ________________ And that is why I love Draco. He's not exactly Mr. Popular (like Harry), nor is he nice. But rather he's Mr. Cynical, the sarcastic one who desires nothing more than a friend. He inflicts pain on others because he feels pain. Misery loves company. --Fyre Wood, who is going to cry because of the mistreatment of her beloved Draco. And stop making those bloody anti-draco/harry shipping comments.. they irk me! From crussell at arkansas.net Thu Sep 19 18:39:21 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 18:39:21 -0000 Subject: Reference to Harry's pureblood status (was: Is Harry a pureblood?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44219 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: > >When HRH go to see Hagrid in his hut after Skeeter reveals that Hagrid is a half-giant, Hagrid tells Harry "You know, I'd like to see you win this tournament ? it would prove that you don't have to be a pureblood to do it"(liberal translation ? I didn't bring GoF to work with me today ). Of course, this quote completely contradicts what I said earlier about the non-DEs believing Harry to be a pureblood (unless we view Hagrid as "unenlightened")! Now me: I do find this quote interesting -and I do not think we have to view Hagrid as being "unenlighted" even though he did make use of the term "pureblood". As has been stated before, we have to look at the context in which it was used. In the above quote, Hagrid does not directly refer to Harry as a "half-blood" ( as a matter of fact, I cannot recall the term "half-blood" being used as an insult-only the term "mudblood"). Also, let's figure out who Hagrid is wanting to "prove wrong." IMO, he wants anyone who believes that "blood- types" matter to be proven wrong. To me, this obviously proves that he does not in anyway support the theory of blood superiority. Which, IMO, would place Hagrid in the "enlightened" camp. For further proof, look at how he champions and supports Hermione-even when Harry and Ron are angry with her. Obviously, Hermione's "blood- type" means absolutely nothing to him. Erised said: > I'm also recalling at the end of GoF when Dumbledore tells Fudge that Fudge has "always been concerned with the purity of blood." To me, this puts Fudge squarely in the company of Lucius et al to whom such purity matters (and provides more fuel for the Evil!Fudge theory!). Now me: Another interesting quote ( I need to read more carefully next time through). And I agree that this does place Fudge in the same league with Malfoy, the DE"S, and on some level, Voldemort. I have never liked Fudge especially his inability to accept the facts when they are staring him in the face. IMO, I see his character as being very vulnerable-and he may prove to be an easy target for Voldemort to manipulate (that is if that has not already happened). When an author comes right out and says this is important -IMO, I think we should pay attention. So IMO, the point that JKR is trying to make concerning prejudice is this: No matter what your heritage, you are responsible for your life. You make the choices and you will face the consequences thereof. You must learn to think for yourself-or someone else will do the thinking for you. Only by thinking for yourself-making your own judgements can your withstand any type of manipulation-and IMO, manipulation has always been Voldemort's modus operandi even from his youth. How else would he have been able to call forth so many supporters? This is what I have gotten from my reading of the HP series. bugaloo37 From tmarends at yahoo.com Thu Sep 19 19:19:40 2002 From: tmarends at yahoo.com (Tim) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 19:19:40 -0000 Subject: Black vs. Pettigrew: Why was Black Laughing? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44220 > When Black hunts down Pettigrew in the street, Pettigrew blasts > himself and a street full of muggles. In PA, we are twice told that > Black stood there laughing when this happened, and was still > laughing when he was arrested. (Stan on Knight Bus and conversation > in Hogsmeade). > > Why would Black be laughing? Thirteen innocent bystanders are dead, > he has learned that his old friend was a Dark Wizard spy who > betrayed Lily and James, and he recently learned James and Lilly are > dead. He must know at this point that he'll be blamed for the > betrayal (he won't be needing the motorcycle anymore). What's so > funny about that? > > I haven't heard this discussed before, and I can't figure it out. > Any help out there? Sorry, Cindy, I have to respond. It is my feeling that Black was laughing because he knew Pettigrew turned himself into a rat. Amid all the confusion (smoke, dead bodies, etc.) a rat could easily hide or escape. Black's laughing, to me, is a way of saying, "You stupid fool! You don't think I'll find you as a rat? I've only seen you turn into one a hundred times!" Of course Black never got the chance to find the rat before the MoM officials showed up and arrested him. Black also said in PoA that the one thing that kept him "sane" in Azkaban was his thoughts of revenge on Pettigrew... if he could only find that rat. Tim A. From siriuskase at earthlink.net Thu Sep 19 19:26:35 2002 From: siriuskase at earthlink.net (Sirius Kase) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 15:26:35 -0400 Subject: Quirrel's remains Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44221 Pardon me for being gruesome, but I've been wondering what sort of remains Quirrel left behind. In the book, I imagined a badly blistered but still identifiable body. But in the movie, I don't think the remains were shown. It appears that he just disintergrated into dust. Or maybe he was cremated. I wonder if it really matters. I'm sure that his absence from the school will be noticed and Harry's explanation seems reasonable. Sirius Kase From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 19 19:29:37 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 19:29:37 -0000 Subject: Snape's Power and Spying (WAS: Physical Harm from an Expelliarmus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44222 Cindy wrote: > That would suggest that Snape is able to blast Lockhart because > Lockhart is weak, not because Snape is especially strong. > > And ya gotta love any theory that denies Snape the opportunity to > be seen as strong. ;-) Now me: Thanks for the good ideas on Expelliarmus - I had forgotten about the Wormtail and spider examples. As much as I loathe Snape, I do believe he is an extremely powerful wizard. He performed a countercurse in PS/SS that kept Harry from falling off his bucking broomstick, even when Quirrell had Voldemort's strength behind his curse. He was able to stop the spells of an entire roomful of wizards in CoS when he commands "Finite Incantatem" in the duelling club. IMO, he put some of his own power behind Draco's Serpensortia spell (Draco would never have been able to manage that on his own with a quickly muttered hint, IMO). And he always seems to show up at just the right time to get Harry into trouble, so he may be a Seer as well. There's been some recent discussion about whether Snape will go back to Voldemort as a spy for Dumbledore. I agree with those who say that Snape can't go back to his old spying role since he's already been exposed as a spy publicly. However, I do believe it's possible (likely?) that he might be double-crossing Dumbledore and is actually a spy for Voldemort. I think Voldemort is referring to Snape in the graveyard in GoF when he says there is "one who I believe has left me forever - he will be killed, of course." If Snape is actually double- crossing Dumbledore, Voldemort could be protecting his cover with this statement (is this one of the pieces of "misinformation" that's part of MAGIC DISHWASHER, perhaps)? ~Phyllis who is very happy that JKR confirmed that the next DADA teacher is a woman and that OoP will be GoF-length and is fairly close to completion! Hooray! From kristin at jesusphreaks.org Thu Sep 19 18:26:35 2002 From: kristin at jesusphreaks.org (Risti) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 18:26:35 -0000 Subject: The Draco and Harry saga (was Re: Draco's need to be) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44223 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Fyre Wood" wrote: *snip* > Melody got it exactly right, in my opinion. Draco doesn't hate Harry > that much, but rather detests Hermione and Ron with a passion. He > hates Ron because he's Harry's best friend and he hates Hermione > because she's the only student who has higher grades than he does. I think that the biggest crime Harry ever committed against Draco was to bruise his pride. "I think I can tell the wrong sort for myself, thank you." Picture Draco in the robe shop. Other then putting down everyone else, he is generally nice towards Harry. Then, when he finds out who Harry is, he offers friendship. Draco has a pretty big ego, and it got deflated rather quickly when Harry dismissed him cooly and without another thought...for someone who basically personifies everything he can't stand. I've always liked Draco, from the first time I saw the movie(yes, I was one of those people who saw the movie first). I think that he's not as bad as he thinks he is. As the series progresses, he does get a little eviler, and my chance of holding out for a reform do seem to be getting slimmer, but hey, I'm an optimist! I've always wondered, what if, at that moment when Harry was standing outside platform 9 3/4, he'd simply observed the Weasley's, and then walked in on his own. Would Draco's have been the friendly face that welcomed him into a compartment and showed him the ropes? Draco was obviously eager for friendship, and would Harry, with no other option, choose it if presented in that scenario? ~Risti From xEmeraldxSnakex at aol.com Thu Sep 19 17:48:16 2002 From: xEmeraldxSnakex at aol.com (xEmeraldxSnakex at aol.com) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 13:48:16 EDT Subject: Neville (was Survey thing) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44224 About everyone saying that Neville is going to die: I'd just like to bring it to everyone's attention that JKR has said or at least hinted (I haven't read the actual thing) once in an interview that one of the students will become a teacher at Hogwarts after graduation. And Neville Longbottom has been said to mean "Absent-Minded Proffesor". So one might just belive believe that it'd be Neville and he does have an iffinity for Herbology doesn't he? Just speculation of course. Sorry if I've said anything stupid. ^^;;; *Goes back to lurking* Emerald Snake Kill the weak!...And eat the wounded! Fanfics and Daily Ranting [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 19 20:08:30 2002 From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda the Witch) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 13:08:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Happy Birthday, Hermione and Suzanne! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020919200830.51053.qmail@web13708.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44225 Suzanne Chiles wrote: Today is Hermione's birthday, so Happy Birthday, Hermione. It's also my birthday, and it's true that I was a lot like Hermione when I was in school. Suzanne Well this is a day for lots of HP presents for you Suzanne! Hope you get what you wish for too! What a great present in having Hermione as a Birthday Buddy! HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU! We toast you today along with Hermione! Thank you for a wonderful reminder! Schnoogles, Wanda the Witch of Revere,Massachusetts and Her Very Merry Band of Muggles 100%! "When you come to the edge of all the light you know, and are about to step off into the darkness of the unknown, faith is knowing one of two things will happen; There will be something solid to stand on, or you will be taught how to fly."......Unknown. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Thu Sep 19 21:05:06 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 22:05:06 +0100 Subject: Neville (was Survey thing) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20020919215129.00985e30@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 44226 At 13:48 19/09/02 -0400, Emerald Snake wrote: >About everyone saying that Neville is going to die: > I'd just like to bring it to everyone's attention that JKR has said >or at least hinted (I haven't read the actual thing) once in an interview >that one of the students will become a teacher at Hogwarts after graduation. She certainly wouldn't have used the term "graduation". :-) Sorry, that is a sore point with many British HP fans. We don't "graduate" from school in this country, we just "leave" (long story). Yes, she is known to have said that, but most people assume it'll be Hermione, who is far more academically gifted (and for whom academic prowess is very important). >And Neville Longbottom has been said to mean "Absent-Minded Proffesor". As the resident etymology geek, I'm curious where you got that and how that was reasoned. (I'm not shouting at anyone. Yet.) :-) It sounds exceptionally far-fetched to me. From eloiseherisson at aol.com Thu Sep 19 21:13:23 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 17:13:23 EDT Subject: Snape's "mind set?" Message-ID: <7f.2c1a3e32.2abb97f3@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44227 In a message dated 17/09/2002 22:45:36 GMT Standard Time, i_am_erasmas at yahoo.ca writes: >So, for those of you >that believe Snape is acting purposefully, I invite you to come up >with a plausible reason for Snape to act the way he does in these >scenes: > 1. PoA - Snape's Grudge > > The one on one interview with Harry -- deliberately taunting Harry > about James. Whether he has a good reason to hate James or not, what > purpose could this possibly serve. Bear in mind that he is talking to > a 13 year old orphan boy about his dead parents. > I had more thoughts on this one. Yes, I think Snape is being spiteful here and I'm not really defending *what* he says, just, as usual, trying to understand why he says it. I think this interview goes hand in hand with his later reaction in the Shrieking Shack, when he tells Harry that he should be down on his knees thanking him and that if he hadn't intervened, Harry would have died like his father, too arrogant to think he might be mistaken about Sirius. I think one of the reasons Snape loses it with Harry, is that, detest him as he does, he still has/feels he has an obligation to protect him. Think about it. What is he doing when he meets Harry in the corridor before he goes to Hogsmeade? He knows what Harry's like. He must know that if there's any chance that Harry will find a way to get to Hogsmeade, he will take it. He clearly *really* thinks he's up to something - look at the way he stays to examine the witch's hump. I don't think he's just being obnoxious for no purpose. He's also not stupid enough to think that there might not be other ways out of the Castle than the ones he knows about. He used to spy on the Marauders: he might have already had reason to suspect that there was a secret passage in the vicinity. He might even have had a shrewd idea where the entrance was (the text certainly suggests that to me), though not knowing the way to open it. So Snape warns him off. He doesn't want him wandering off into Hogsmeade with Black around. But Harry goes. And then, surprise, surprise, who should come along just as Harry emerges from the witch's hump after his exploits, but Snape. What a coincidence - Snape on the third floor corridor, well out of his territory, at those two moments. I'm sure he does know there's a passage entrance there, which is why he was keeping an eye out for Harry the first time and why he got there so swiftly after Draco alerted him to Harry's presence in Hogsmeade. Like Harry, Snape is 'rarely in a place for no reason'. And his reaction? Well, honestly in some ways I think it's parental. He's furious with Harry for deliberately putting himself in danger. He's stuck his neck out for him, even defended him in the presence of Quirrelmort and now the stupid, arrogant boy thinks he knows best and that he can do just as he likes. I'd be livid, too! And the trouble is that it's all so personal. If we are to believe, as many do, that Snape was the one who warned Dumbledore that Voldemort was after Lily and James, then he fears history will repeat itself. Because he's right - James *did* die because he was too arrogant to believe he might be mistaken in Sirius. He trusted Sirius' judgement (leading to the fateful swap of which Snape is unaware), rather than Dumbledore's. But the end result was the same, whether Sirius or Pettigrew was the traitor and it depended on James trusting Sirius above Dumbledore. So Snape tried to protect James, whom he hated and James had to have his own way and got killed. Now he is trying to protect Harry, whom he hates and Harry insists on having his own way and is apparently putting himself in danger of being killed. Well, I can understand his anger and frustration. It's enough of a burden having to protect the boy in the first place. And as Pippin pointed out (and as the text tells us), he was deliberately trying to *provoke* a reaction, provoke Harry into telling the truth, so there was reason for what he said, although he was clearly letting personal feelings get the better of him. I'm afraid I don't personally feel in a position to criticise. I know I've said things I shouldn't have in times of anger or frustration, or to provoke a reaction (and stubbornly mute children are particularly frustrating, I find). And of course, he gets his come-uppance in the end, when the Map insults him and Remus colludes with Harry. Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Thu Sep 19 21:20:18 2002 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 21:20:18 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?As_Big_as_=93Fire=94_(filk)?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44228 As Big as "Fire" To the tune of Ring of Fire Hear the original at: http://www.foxlink.net/~bobnbren/1960s.html#R Dedicated to all the HP4GU filkers Fans have a burning glint To see Volume Five in print Jo in her interviews Gave some astounding news Jo says Five will be just as big as "Fire" Soon we'll have hundreds More pages to inspire And we'll learn learn learn What has transpired since the end of "Fire" When we see what she wrote Which ships will stay afloat? The Lexicon Steve will revise New acronyms will soon arise Jo says Five will be just as big as "Fire" We can't wait until We get the chance to be its buyers We'll cry, "Dern, dern, dern" If she misfires sequels to "Fire" Pippin will once again take up her lyre Frants, Gail, Lilac And all the others I admire They will filk, filk, filk That book entire for the HP choir - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Sep 19 21:32:57 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 21:32:57 -0000 Subject: Snape's Power and Spying (WAS: Physical Harm from an Expelliarmus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44229 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: > There's been some recent discussion about whether Snape will go back to Voldemort as a spy for Dumbledore. I agree with those who say that Snape can't go back to his old spying role since he's already been exposed as a spy publicly. However, I do believe it's possible (likely?) that he might be double-crossing Dumbledore and is actually a spy for Voldemort. I think Voldemort is referring to Snape in the graveyard in GoF when he says there is "one who I believe has left me forever - he will be killed, of course." If Snape is actually double- crossing Dumbledore, Voldemort could be protecting his cover with this statement (is this one of the pieces of "misinformation" that's part of MAGIC DISHWASHER, perhaps)?<< Or maybe, Snape is loyal to Dumbledore, but can convince Voldemort that he's been double-crossing Dumbledore all along. Snape could plead that he had no way of knowing that Voldemort was behind Quirrell's attempts to kill Harry or steal the stone. He can also point to all he's done to throw suspicion on Black (which may include earlier history we haven't heard as yet.) We don't really know how public the trials were. Harry sees Rita Skeeter only at Bagman's trial. It would have been difficult for the Ministry to arrest and try someone as prominent as Bagman secretly, but that doesn't mean that Karkaroff and Snape himself couldn't have been. In support of this, Sirius didn't know that Snape had been a Death Eater (unless he was lying to Harry, which I doubt) though he seems to have tried to find out all he could about the whereabouts of former Death Eaters and suspects. Pippin From speedygonzo242 at hotmail.com Thu Sep 19 21:42:53 2002 From: speedygonzo242 at hotmail.com (frankielee242) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 21:42:53 -0000 Subject: Black vs. Pettigrew: Why was Black Laughing? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44230 Cindy wrote: > > When Black hunts down Pettigrew in the street, Pettigrew blasts > > himself and a street full of muggles. In PA, we are twice told that > > Black stood there laughing when this happened, and was still > > laughing when he was arrested. (Stan on Knight Bus and conversation > > in Hogsmeade). SNIP Tim A wrote: > It is my feeling that Black was laughing because he knew Pettigrew > turned himself into a rat. Amid all the confusion (smoke, dead > bodies, etc.) a rat could easily hide or escape. Up from the depths, less than six feet high... Frankie surfaces from under a drawing table. I think Black was laughing because he was temporarily insane. His entire world has just flipped upside down-- his best friends are dead because he talked them into using Voldemort's spy as thier secret keeper. Not only that, but without Peter, no one will believe that Sirius wasn't Voldemort's spy himself (as explained by Dumbledor in PoA). When Peter disappears into the sewer, Sirius loses any hope of proving he's not a DE or guilty of mass murder. And, there is NOTHING Sirius can do about it. I'd be a gibbering idiot at that point, myself... Actually, I don't think Sirius was planning to kill Peter when they met in the street that day. Drag him back for Crouch Senior and the dementors to interrogate after beating the sh** out of him, yes. Murder on the spot, no. Frankie, who's lurking like mad these days From divaclv at aol.com Thu Sep 19 22:20:20 2002 From: divaclv at aol.com (c_voth312) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 22:20:20 -0000 Subject: Black vs. Pettigrew: Why was Black Laughing? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44231 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "frankielee242" wrote: > I think Black was laughing because he was temporarily insane. His > entire world has just flipped upside down-- his best friends are dead > because he talked them into using Voldemort's spy as thier secret > keeper. Not only that, but without Peter, no one will believe that > Sirius wasn't Voldemort's spy himself (as explained by Dumbledor in > PoA). When Peter disappears into the sewer, Sirius loses any hope of > proving he's not a DE or guilty of mass murder. And, there is NOTHING > Sirius can do about it. > > I'd be a gibbering idiot at that point, myself... Not only that, but he's just been framed by the last person who was supposed to have the wit and power to do so. The irony probably was a bit much for his unbalanced emotional state. > Actually, I don't think Sirius was planning to kill Peter when they > met in the street that day. Drag him back for Crouch Senior and the > dementors to interrogate after beating the sh** out of him, yes. > Murder on the spot, no. > I don't know, I have to disagree with you on that one. Sirius doesn't seem to think very clearly when he's angry--and he had to have been VERY angry at that point. I think he'd have been perfectly happy to off Peter right then and there. ~Christi From kkearney at students.miami.edu Thu Sep 19 22:28:45 2002 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 22:28:45 -0000 Subject: Magical Genetics/ Voldemort's plan Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44232 First, a few comments on the pure-blood/half-blood debate... Overall, as shown in the current debate, the definition of half-blood seems to vary between people. If one's ancestors have never married muggles at all, then one is pureblood. If one's parents are muggles, one is muggle-born. Anything in between (including Harry) is debatable. I think the reason it's so diffuicult to distinguish between pure-blood and half-blood wizards, or to agree on a definition, is the fact that magical ability does not seem to be inherited like any other human trait. I have attempted to fit it to several inheritance patterns. Possibility #1: a single magic allele Being that squibs are rare, I assume that the magic allele is the dominant one, M. Therefore Muggles would have the genotype mm, and wizards either Mm or MM. The recessive m allele must undergo mutation to M at a pretty high frequency to account for the appearance of magical ability in children with Muggle parents. However, in this scheme, squibs could appear in many ways (50% of half-blood/muggle couples' children, 25% of half-blood/half-blood couples' children, etc.). This doesn't tally with the Wizarding World as we know it. Possibilty #2: many magical alleles combine to shape magical ability This is how characteristics such as skin color and other racial determinants are usually inherited. It seems to make sense in that it explains a range of magical ability (rather than the yes or no system of a single allele). However, I would expect a trait inherited in this manner to show even more variation than we see, and a more direct linkage to parentage. For example, two pure blood wizards would produce children who are homozygous dominant for every magical allele. Two first generation half-blood (child of pure-blood abd muggle) wizards would have children who inherit about half of the magical traits and half of the muggle traits. The constant reinforcement of pure vs half blood being irrelevant seems to eliminate the possibility of magic being so directly related to one's parents. Also, how many magical traits would be needed to be considered a wizard/witch vs. a muggle? If it was only a single mutation, we're back to #1. Multiple mutations become less and less likely. In Potterverse, despite the shades of grey within the wizarding community, there seems to be a very distinct line between wizards/witches and muggles. So this possibilty doesn't work either. I think we just need to accept that inheritance or lack thereof of magic is in itself magical and inexplicable. The fact that there does not appear to be any connection between one's ancestry and magical ability supports the fact that half-bloodedness is solely a social classification and therefore has no distinct definition. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The Basis for Voldemort's Campaign The whole pure-blood/half-blood debate got me thinking about this. Several people mentioned how Voldemort and the DEs consider half-bloods and muggle-born wizards and witches to be inferior. This may be true for many DEs, who seem to be predominantly the unarguable type of pure-blooded wizards. But what about Tom Riddle? He is a half-blood himself. From what we've seen so far, he has no self-hatred. He doesn't consider himself inferior to any of his pure-blooded followers. He has mentioned many times that he is the greatest wizard of all time. So why would he start a campaign against muggles and half-bloods? My theory: Riddle has no misconceptions about the purity of blood being related to magical ability. He knows perfectly well that a half-blood or, God forbid, a muggle-born wizard, can become more powerful than a pure-blooded wizard. However, look at Riddle's life. His father abandons him, his mother dies soon afterward, and he is left alone in the world. In his mind, if his mother had married a wizard, she would still be alive and with her husband, and Tom would have a happy family. The cause of his problems came not from the muggle blood that runs in his veins, but from the original interaction between a witch and muggle. Solution: Riddle decides to completely separate the wizarding world from the muggle world. No more of this foolish intermarrying. The best way to accomplish this, of course, is to eliminate all muggles. Next, eliminate anyone who could prove that muggles can produce necessary and beneficial members of the wizarding community: so long muggle-born witches and wizards. So far, I don't think we've heard any direct mention of a compaign against half-blooded wizards, even those like Harry (correct me if I'm wrong). But this may be the next step simply because they are still proof that muggles can contribute to the wizarding society. I like this mindset for Voldemort for several reasons. Most importantly, it creates less of a "pure evil" villain. In real life, the bad guy rarely thinks of himself as the bad guy, and I think Voldemort is no different. I never liked the "kill them because they are not as good as me" madman. Riddle has always been very intelligent, and would seemingly see the futility in this. But what about a "kill them so I can save the world" midset? Yes, he has had to hurt and kill many people, but in the end, Riddle feels that he is actually helping the wizarding community. People may hate him now, but he feels he will eventually go down in history as one of the greatest wizards of all time (and by great I do mean good). Any thoughts on this? -Corinth From speedygonzo242 at hotmail.com Thu Sep 19 23:24:01 2002 From: speedygonzo242 at hotmail.com (frankielee242) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 23:24:01 -0000 Subject: Snape's "mind set?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44233 Acire wrote: > I don't think he's putting on an act. I think that's really him. I > don't think that he feels rally bad about treating Harry and CO. the > way he does, or that he sleeps in footsie pjs with pink bunny > rabbits, and Fluffy his white kitty absolutely HAS to be curled up > on his pillow with the purple tassels. ICK!! ACK!! WOORG!! YUCK!! No, our darling Severus would probably decapitate that white kitty for the fun of watching "the blood spurt in slow motion" (Monty Python's Scott of the Antarctic sketch) through a pair of omnoculars. He was a DE, for crying out loud. Possibly for the right witch, he would allow a fluffy white kitty-cat into his office and not kick it. Possibly for the right witch, he might even smile without sneering or wear robes in another color than black. Possibly for the right witch (and this is a long shot) he might even do something rather sweet, like send her a fluffy white kitty-cat. By owl post so no one sees him with it. > > 1. PoA - Snape's Grudge > > He hated James. We don't know why, yet, but that's just it. And > James and Harry are supposedly a lot alike. I'm of the opinion that, > contrary to popular belief, Lily and James WERE NOT PERFECT. They > were the popular people, and Snape sat at the lunch table that > everyone made fun of (ahh...memories of high school. And I had more > fun at that lunch table). That's the best table to sit at!! But, I think I've said this elsewhere-- Unless the lunch table that everyone made fun of was the Slytherin table, Snape wasn't sitting at it. Think about it-- A first year with a working knowledge of curses on par with the seventh year students is not going to picked on by anybody more than once (Sirius remembering, GoF). Challenged, yes. Picked on, no. It seems to me from reading the books that James Potter was the sort of person who always landed on his feet, got away with murder and was the best at everything without even trying. He was in trouble all the time but became Head Boy anyway (McGonagall remembering, PoA). If James and Sirius always took first and second in everything they did from Quidditch to grades to social standing, etc., that means that no matter how hard Snape tried, the best he could ever do was third. Which is enough to drive an ambitious person completely bonkers. You could even apply shades of the recent Trio and Draco character analysis to the Mauraders and Snape, I think. > > 2. GoF - Hermione's Teeth > > I don't think he got any particular sort of pleasure out of it, he > was just being a...well, mean. It's like a natural response. He > doesn't really care for Hermione, she got hit with a spell after > he'd just seen Teacher's Pet and Potter using magic in the hallway, > which they're not supposed to do, saw that Hermione, Potter's > shadow, got the short end of the stick, and just...went with it. It > was more of a "too bad for you, why am I supposed to care?" That and Hermione is a know-it-all. See #1. for why Snape would find someone who knows all the answers especially annoying. Plus, she figured out his logic puzzle guarding the stone when she was only 11 (SS/PS). Think about how you feel when some punk little kid beats you at something and intensify it about 200 times. Also, Snape strikes me as someone who is brutally honest. What he thinks, he says. He doesn't give a damn about anyone else's feelings or about being polite, which is time consuming and takes effort. On the hair front... >>>SNIP<<<< > He's a man. He doesn't have to shower when he doesn't want to. My BF > went away to college, I'm sure he was wearing underwear more than > one day at a time and not showering every night. eww...And Snape's > not stern, he's mean. Stern is McGonagall. I'm not entirely sure if > Snape likes teaching or not. I get the feeling that an eight to ten hour day of standing in fumes rising from an entire classroom full of cauldrons would make anyone's hair pretty nasty. For Snape as a greasy-haired kid, Acire's above description of school life sounds bang-on to me. Then again, one of the other art directors here starts his day with freshly washed hair and by three in the afternoon it's a nasty, greasy, spiked up mess. It's just his metabolism. As a wizard who is probably single and not living in proximity to available witches (all of the other Hogwarts staff seem much older than 35/36 to me), Snape has probably given up on his hair. And doesn't care much about the rest of his appearance, either. Does anyone else think he swills down coffee by the pot and smoke cigarettes by the carton? The descriptions of yellowish teeth and fingers made me wonder. It would ruin his sence of taste and smell, but nearly all of teachers at my high school had a cigarette in one hand and a coffee mug in the other. =P Maybe Snape will clean up for the new DADA teacher, as JKR has confirmed it will be a witch in OoP. =P About teaching-- I also wonder why Snape is at Hogwarts. Maybe he's safer there than anywhere else, maybe it's part of a bargain with Dumbledore or maybe he actually likes teaching the upper level students who are intelligent enough to help him work on research projects. Hope we find out. > Most of the theories I saw on Hypothetical Alley, I didn't like, > particularly LOLLIPOPS. I think I likes the flamingo one, though. > But I join you in your plea to take a GOOD LOOK at Severus Snape, > fictional book character and all-around mysterious person, and make > a theory supported by his behaviors in the past four books, as well > as canon. Just don't go by canon alone. We've all read the same four books, so I get a kick out of reading what other people think up; theories, fan fics, etc., but I agree-- If JKR does anything at all, she writes books about real people dealing with real issues. Those people and issues may happen in a fictional setting, but she's said in interviews that she's worked out life stories for her characters so what they do in her books is a result of their backgrounds. Voila, four absolutely amazing stories that resonate with people world-wide and a fifth story on the way. And there are a few thousand fans right here trying to figure out what the upcoming stories will be before JKR writes them... > -Acire, who really must stop her late night runs to the campus food > place for ice cream, or else she's going to find out what they meant > by the "freshmen 15". Don't worry, it's just a myth. If you've got to walk more than three blocks from class to class, you'll actually lose the "freshman 15". Look on the bright side, at least you're remebering to eat. Frankie, who bought paint, film and booze instead of food in college. And who really, really likes Snape (multi-layered, mysterious, mean, so on and so forth). From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Thu Sep 19 23:38:58 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 00:38:58 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Name meanings: Arabella Figg/ Hagrid In-Reply-To: <011401c25eb6$237abba0$609ecdd1@istu757> References: <182.e84a174.2ab860e4@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20020919234905.00a47750@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 44234 At 20:52 17/09/02 -0500, Richelle Votaw wrote: >Yes, and it also hinges on something else. JKR herself not being a Latin >scholar (French teacher yes, Latin scholar, no), and since she is the one >who's come up with all of this, I simply don't see it as vital for >everything to be grammatically correct to make a nice story. Take >Wingardium Leviosar (sorry if I spelled it wrong, I REALLY don't want to be >turned back into a ferret again), for example. I haven't researched it >properly, but I think leviosar can be related to a lightness, but then wing >is thrown in there, completely unLatin. I agree entirely. JKR is NOT a Latinist, and some of her Latin constructions aren't quite right (as everyone's chucking out examples, one of the most glaring for me was "expecto" rather than "exspecto"; BTW for the record, it's "Leviosa"). :-) A few relevant points. I anything, this proves that JKR is NOT using a Latin dictionary to derive names; she's using half-remembered bits from her limited Classics studies, and probably a dictionary of names. Strangely enough, only someone using a dictionary (rather than even a basic knowledge of Latin) would use "bellum" (war) to attempt to derive meaning from "Arabella". No, JKR isn't a Latinist. She is/was, however, a teacher (and presumably fairly fluent speaker) of French. Even if she had no Latin schooling at all (which isn't the case), she'd connect "bella" with "belle" (Fr. beautiful) well before she connected it with "bellicose". Apart from anything else, even without knowing French, there was (and presumably still is?) a British women's magazine called "Bella". Clue: it's got nothing to with the military. :-) This discussion has started confusing two things: JKR's own invented words (spells, names) which sound vaguely Latinish and clearly have some kind of Latin derivation, however incorrectly formed, and existing words which have accepted Latin etymologies and meanings. Now, if "Arabella" didn't exist in the real world, I would agree that JKR could give it absolutely any meaning (and spelling) she wished; the issue is that the name *does* exist, and it has an accepted etymology (or even several, including the IMO less plausible one via "Annabel"). Considering the level of detail JKR has gone into and the research she has clearly done (which doesn't seem to have included a Latin dictionary!) :-) I find it bizarre that she would choose this name to mean anything other than what it is accepted to do. Otherwise, what would be the point of using a specific name or word unless its meaning was clear? Incidentally, etymology is most frequently a "subtle science and precise art" of educated opinion rather than a prescriptivist statement of right/wrong, black/white. It's usually about a balance of probabilities and lexicographers have argued some words back and forth for generations. The problem in the case of Arabella is quite simply that "bellum" being involved anywhere along the line is not only improbable but almost certainly impossible (if I were a professional lexicographer I could be more definitive). :-) >Thank you for noticing, I AM very opinionated. And I love creating >controversy. :) As am I, except that when I express my opinions, I get accused of transforming people into ferrets and bouncing them around the room. :-) Hagrid >Now, once again I'll venture I could be stupid again, but I always perceived >Hagrid to be a "play" on the word haggard. Considering Hagrid doesn't >look, well, too spiffy. You might consider me strange, but in this instance I agree with you, except that I go one step further - I've always considered Hagrid to be a combination of haggard and rugged (pronounced as is in some English dialects as "ruggid"). From rpenguin at hotmail.com Fri Sep 20 00:08:13 2002 From: rpenguin at hotmail.com (rpenguin7) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 00:08:13 -0000 Subject: Draco's need to be In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44235 This is my first time to post here.. Hi everyone *waves* Somehow I never see Draco as a neo Nazi activist despite his very PC incorrect language *grins*. The first time he brought up the term "mudblood", was when Hermione said, "At least he doesn't need to buy himself into the team.. or something" (sorry, forgot the exact quote). Even though Draco was at the time making mean remarks about the Gryffindor team, Hermione's statement was still rather unfair-- it's fairly obvious judging from canon, Draco can fly well and would've been able to make Slytherin's seeker w/o bribery. Degraded and outraged, Hermione's "blood type" was the ONLY thing Draco could retaliate her with. Because there simply is nothing else Hermione is worse off. As for Ron's financial status.. well, the first time he brought that up on the train was when Ron made a funny noise at Draco's name, so again it was an overreaction rather than a self-initiated attack. I certainly don't think Draco would only befriend with the rich, since he didn't seem to know nor care about Harry's financial condition. I think he picks whoever benefits him or is good to him (Crabbe, Goyle,Pansy), and if possible, I highly doubt he wouldn't want to trade Crabbe & Goyle for Harry/Ron, and Pansy for Hermione. But since the trio totally despise him (I don't blame them)they've therefore elected themselves as his enemies. Also take Snape for example, we don't know yet whether he's pure blood (I assume he is though), but he certainly doesn't appear to be rich and powerful-- however he is the only teacher Draco respects, probably mostly because he considers Snape to be "on his side". Another evidence is that while he counts Crabbe and Goyle as his allies, he certainly doesn't *respect* them, despite their pure blood, their similar background and all. Draco is good at spotting one's weakness, race and wealth just *happened* to be the only major weakness he could find in Hermione and Ron (note how Hermione was totally unaffected though). As much as I love Draco, so far I cannot tell from canon his ability to "think for himself", I therefore highly doubt it's truly his own opinion that the "non-pure blood" and the poor are inferior. Just my $0.02 =) From rlundgren at gov.mb.ca Thu Sep 19 19:39:50 2002 From: rlundgren at gov.mb.ca (freya122000) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 19:39:50 -0000 Subject: Draco & Harry (Stop that giggling in the back row) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44236 I know I'm going to get into so much trouble with this but... Frankly I don't see Draco as Harry's nemesis, that belongs to Voldy. IMO JKR has not fleshed out Draco's character for that role. That is not to say she wont. In fact I hope she does because right now he is just a bore(duck & cover). I would like to see him with a bit more spice. All I see, "right now", is a spoiled, childish and immature person, with very little of his own personality. He just parrots his father with no thoughts of his own or at least none that we have seen. He is childish and brings that out in the other characters around him, perhaps that is his function, to remind us that after all they are still children in many ways. I do hope he grows into more, because there could be great things for him. I would like to see him grow a spine and tell his father where to put it. That doesn't mean I want him as Harry's new best freind. I just would like to see him come out of the shawdow he has been standing in for good or evil just pick one. Freya From rlundgren at gov.mb.ca Thu Sep 19 19:57:47 2002 From: rlundgren at gov.mb.ca (freya122000) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 19:57:47 -0000 Subject: Black vs. Pettigrew: Why was Black Laughing? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44237 I to must respond to this. I think Black was laughing because he knew that he had been set up. Peter was the leak and had sold him down the river. I don't think he was heartless but I think his best freind was dead and he really did feel like it was all his doing. He knew Dumbledore would think that he had sold the Potters to Voldy and he was going down for the count and his only way out just turned into the rat he really was. I think he was alittle crazy then, anger, fear, greif. It was hysterical laughter, desperate, he may even have thought about trying to fight his way out, but he is not evil so he would discard that. He is helpless and he knows it. Freya From millergal8 at aol.com Fri Sep 20 02:00:04 2002 From: millergal8 at aol.com (millergal8 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 22:00:04 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Black vs. Pettigrew: Why was Black Laughing? Message-ID: <187.e64c95e.2abbdb24@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44238 In a message dated 9/19/02 5:11:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time, rlundgren at gov.mb.ca writes: << It was hysterical laughter, desperate >> Black was completely hysterical at that point. Think of all the stress he is under and the emotional rollercoaster he has just been subjected too. Lots of people laugh when it is completely inappropriate to do such. I have been at funerals where people start to laugh. You can only take so much before your brain realizes it must release some of the emotion or it will just shut down. This can come out in many ways, laughter being one of them. Sirius' laughter wasn't at all out of context to me. Look at his situation: Two of his best friends have been murdered. He has been denied the right to care for his godson, he feels responsible because -he- convinced the Potters to go with Peter as the secret keeper. He has just been outsmarted by someone he considered inferior, and now he knows he has no proof. He knows where he's going (Azkaban), and knows it isn't going to be a walk in the park. All in all, I think he shows remarkable strength at that point. By that time, I think most of us would simply shut down. Thats a lot to handle in only about 2 days. Christy From rvotaw at i-55.com Fri Sep 20 02:16:06 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 21:16:06 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape and Quirrell/Voldemort/ Is Harry a pureblood?/ Dumbledore & Voldemort/JKR's Latin References: Message-ID: <051801c2604b$adee8960$189ccdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 44239 Olivia writes: > So, wouldn't Voldemort hear Snape threatening Quirrell? Doesn't that > incriminate Snape and endanger his double agent status? Voldemort hears > Snape bullying Quirrell around, threatening him about going after the > Sorcerer's Stone, wouldn't that get the Dark Lord a little angry that one of > his Death Eaters is standing in his way? Or does Snape have really good > timing and only catches Quirrell when Voldemort is off in the Forrest > swigging Unicorn blood? It's possible, but it seems unlikely. The way I see it, Snape suspects Voldemort's with Quirrell, but he never says anything to let on that he knows. And the things he says to threaten Quirrell give the impression that he is after the stone. He doesn't mention why, for all Harry knows (as he reasons out) Snape wants it for Voldemort. It would be easier to return to Voldemort with something to offer. Voldemort would, in effect, owe him a life debt of sorts. Second, I am still wavering between double agent Snape and triple agent Snape. (or is it secret agent and double agent?) Anyhow, one minute I really like Snape (as much as possible), the next I hate him with a passion and figure he's tricking Dumbledore. For example, we have "reasons" for him to hate Harry, though whether he hates or just dislikes is another story for another day. I think there are more reasons, one way or another. But then there's "poor little" Neville. The only "reason" we have for Snape not liking him is he's not good at potions. Big deal, I have lots of students not good at one subject or another (or all, for that matter), but it doesn't make me like them any less. Snape, though, treats Neville worse than Harry. Like the detention thing for melting his cauldron. Disembowling a barrel full of horned toads? The child has a toad for a *pet*!!!! It's child abuse!!! Okay, moving on: > kel:"Always remember: the Sorting Hat wanted to put Harry, a wizard > whose mother was muggle-born, into Slytherin. Harry is neither muggle- > born nor half blood... what IS he?" Respectfully speaking, regardless of what JKR said, I think Harry's in between a half blood and a pureblood. As far as we know, and I get the general impression, that the Potter line is an old wizard family. That James Potter was a pureblood. Lily Potter, on the other hand, was muggle born. However, James and Lily were wizard/witch. No muggle there. So Harry is not technically a half blood, as Tom Riddle and Seamus and whoever else. But he's not a pureblood either. I think you can only be considered a pure blood if you can trace back the bloodline for ages. So I think there needs to be a fourth term, besides pure blood, half blood, and muggle born. Harry's none of the above. Risti writes: > In any case, I have a theory to expound upon, and I would love to > here your opinions of it. It began with me trying to find the answer > to a question that I'm sure has plagued most of us:Why is Voldemort > scared of Dumbledore? The answer that I've found becomes more and > more plausible every time I think about it. Well, interesting theory. However, I have a few concerns here. If the wand is sentient, how would it allow Voldemort to use it to kill anyone? Especially those who were "close to Dumbledore." I can see, however, how the wand could perhaps refuse to kill Fawkes, if Voldemort ever tried such a thing. That would be, in effect, suicide. GulPlum/Richard writes: > I agree entirely. JKR is NOT a Latinist, and some of her Latin > constructions aren't quite right (as everyone's chucking out examples, one > of the most glaring for me was "expecto" rather than "exspecto"; BTW for > the record, it's "Leviosa"). :-) Whatever. :) Keep in mind I spend all day trying to teach six year olds to spell three letter words. It's no wonder I get a little mixed up! :D > As am I, except that when I express my opinions, I get accused of > transforming people into ferrets and bouncing them around the room. :-) Ah, well, I'm none the worse for it. At least you don't get accused of BEING a ferret! Never knew I had a thing in common with Draco . . . Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From kellybroughton at yahoo.com Fri Sep 20 03:04:32 2002 From: kellybroughton at yahoo.com (kelly broughton) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 20:04:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:Snape's "mind set" In-Reply-To: <34.2db2f670.2abb657b@aol.com> Message-ID: <20020920030432.34995.qmail@web21102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44240 --- jodel at aol.com wrote: Even if he behaved the perfect > gent > (which, with his disposition, would be a strain -- he is not a *nice* > man) > there would still be rumors flying about of his DE background. And it > would > take next to no effort to confirm those rumors to anyone who decided to > investigate. To the wizarding world, he is always going to be an > ex-Death > Eater. > (snip rest of EXCELLENT post) I cannot help but notice that you make the assumption that Snape's DE background is well-known... but is it? I have to wonder. Granted, Harry is still learning things about the WW while he lives in it, but until PoA he didn't have a clue that Snape used to be a DE, and neither did Ron (who you think would know, if Snape's past IS "common knowledge") or Hermione. >From what I can tell from canon, the only ppl who seem to be aware of Snape's history are: the Hogwarts faculty (and probrably not all of them) the few Slytherins that we actually know of at least some of the DE's (Lucius, for example) Voldemort Harry and co. Sirius (I think- correct me if I'm wrong) Speaking of Sirius, he had no clue what it meant when Harry tells him about Karkaroff showing Snape something on his left arm in PoA, which does make me wonder if he knew Snape was a DE. If there are others that know, Rowling has not yet seen fit to let us know about it. -kel, who has wondered before how secret Snape's past actually is, and also hopes Rowling publishes a biography (or autobio!) about Snape, authorised or not. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From Schlobin at aol.com Fri Sep 20 03:30:35 2002 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 03:30:35 -0000 Subject: JKR interview re. Stouffer & Book Five In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44241 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "hp_lexicon" wrote: > A transcript is available here: > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/uk/newsid_2269000/2269270.stm > > I have already noted a few facts and added them to the Lexicon. Gee, > makes me wish for thost exciting days after GF came out when there > were new interviews every so often and we all started debating all > the new little details she revealed. Nothing earth-shattering here, > except maybe that the book will be as long as GF. Now I'm grinning > from ear to ear and trying to get back to work... > > Steve Nothing earth-shattering here Well, perhaps not earth shattering Steve, but definitely tantalizing...I loved the off handed comment about Mundungus I can't wait to get more details about the "old crowd"....Arabella Figg, in particular. Susan From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 20 11:15:16 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 11:15:16 -0000 Subject: Snape's "mind set" In-Reply-To: <20020920030432.34995.qmail@web21102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44242 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., kelly broughton wrote: > Speaking of Sirius, he had no clue what it meant when Harry tells him > about Karkaroff showing Snape something on his left arm in PoA, which does > make me wonder if he knew Snape was a DE. Sirius didn't know. In "Padfoot Returns," he lists a bunch of Snape's Slytherin friends who became Death Eaters, then says "But as far as I know, Snape was never even accused of being a Death Eater." (GoF, UK paperback, p. 461) Of course, Sirius' knowledge may be limited -- he would only know the DE's who were unmasked before his arrest, those who were in Azkaban with him, and anyone they may have mentioned while in Azkaban. So other people might know, even if Sirius doesn't it. But I doubt if it's common knowledge in the WW -- most Hogwarts parents would likely throw fits at the idea of a former DE teaching their children. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From ksnidget at aol.com Fri Sep 20 11:33:50 2002 From: ksnidget at aol.com (ksnidget at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 07:33:50 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Magical Genetics/ Voldemort's plan Message-ID: <86.2080ee57.2abc619e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44243 -Corinth writes: <<>> Injecting a little Molecular Genetics into a Mendelian Genetics argument. There are genes that are known that quite frequently mutate from the recessive state to the dominate state. Interestingly most of them are genes that effect the brain, and there seems to be some mental aspect to magic. These genes share the trait that they have a long stretch of repeated DNA. This stretch is long enough to be unstable. The length can change, sometimes dramatically, between generations. When the length gets above a certain threshold it changes the protein that is made from it enough to effect the function. Once the gene converts from the short recessive length to the dominate long length it usually stays long from each generation to the next. However, it is probably that on rare occasion it reverts to a shorter repeat. I proposed a while ago that the Magic allele may be such a gene. If it were you would see a fairly substantial number of muggle born wizards. The children of muggle born wizards would be magical. F1 hybrids (lets be technical...a Muggle parent and a Magical one) would all be magical. There would be some chance that the gene could revert to the non-magical state, but this would be a rare event. This seems to match the pattern of inheritance that we see described in the Wizarding world. Of course molecular genetics is a weird and wild place and no matter what we knew about the inheritance of magic it is likely that we could find a scenario that fits. Ksnidget. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eloiseherisson at aol.com Fri Sep 20 12:22:09 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 08:22:09 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Name meanings: Arabella Figg/ Hagrid Message-ID: <14e.145b495a.2abc6cf1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44244 In a message dated 20/09/2002 00:39:29 GMT Standard Time, hpfgu at plum.cream.org writes: > I agree entirely. JKR is NOT a Latinist, and some of her Latin > constructions aren't quite right (as everyone's chucking out examples, one > of the most glaring for me was "expecto" rather than "exspecto" Eloise: Now you know, I didn't worry about that one, probably because I'm fairly used to Church Latin, where the form without the 's' is used (probably not exclusively- I'm sure you'll manage to find counter-examples) To be sure, I just checked my score of the B Minor Mass : 'Et expecto resurrectionem....' That phrase makes me realise: JKR *does* show some knowledge of Latin grammar, because she uses the nominative form 'patronus', yet the incantation is, 'expecto patronum' (accusative form). Similarly she distinguishes between nouns and verbs (cruciatus/crucio; imperius/imperio). Richard: > <> > No, JKR isn't a Latinist. She is/was, however, a teacher (and presumably > fairly fluent speaker) of French. Even if she had no Latin schooling at all > > (which isn't the case), she'd connect "bella" with "belle" (Fr. beautiful) > well before she connected it with "bellicose". Apart from anything else, > even without knowing French, there was (and presumably still is?) a British > > women's magazine called "Bella". Clue: it's got nothing to with the > military. :-) Eloise: I agree completely. Richard: > <>Now, if "Arabella" didn't exist in the real world, I would agree that JKR > could give it absolutely any meaning (and spelling) she wished; the issue > is that the name *does* exist, and it has an accepted etymology (or even > several, including the IMO less plausible one via "Annabel"). <> Eloise: I'm not an etymology geek ;-), but my understanding of the etymology deriving the name from Amabel (of which I think Annabel is a later form) is that it is based on tracing the occurence of the name through time and its evolution over time. I didn't put that very well, but I hope you see what I mean. Big changes do occur in names. Look at the use of 'Polly' as a diminutive for Mary, for instance. I think there are three possibilities: 1) JKR has just chosen a name which she likes, or which suits the character in some way, or more or less at random. 2) She is using it because of it's 'amabile' = 'beloved' definition. 3) She is using the obvious Latin translation favoured by Richard. Or maybe a felicitous combination of the three. How about that for a compromise? Sirius' beloved girlfiend, who is also (unpolyjuiced) Harry's beautiful sanctuary and having the appearance of an old lady also merits an old-fashioned name. BTW, I have to throw this in. I've finally found my Chambers Dictionary lurking in the back of a bookcase and it suggests yet another meaning: 'easily entreated', from the Latin 'orabilis'. Talking of Chambers, I did mean to throw this thought out the other day. Chambers is *the* dictionary for crossword puzzle addicts (that is for the kind of cryptic crossword puzzle that you find in the British quality broadsheet papers). The clues are based on puns, double meanings, plays on words, homophones, anagrams, etc. It strikes me that JKR's mind does work very much along those lines so that she may very well have more than one meaning in mind, or that she may well be using names in a not strictly etymological way. Richelle: > > <>>Thank you for noticing, I AM very opinionated. And I love creating > >controversy. :) Richard: > As am I, except that when I express my opinions, I get accused of > transforming people into ferrets and bouncing them around the room. :-) Eloise: OK. Public apology to Richard time. I just thought it was funny. Like JKR and the twins, my sense of humour gets the better of me sometimes. Oh - and Richelle, I *like* ferrets! > Richelle: > > Hagrid > > >Now, once again I'll venture I could be stupid again, but I always > perceived > >Hagrid to be a "play" on the word haggard. Considering Hagrid doesn't > >look, well, too spiffy. Richard: > You might consider me strange, but in this instance I agree with you, > except that I go one step further - I've always considered Hagrid to be a > combination of haggard and rugged (pronounced as is in some English > dialects as "ruggid"). Eloise: Although the word it is most like is 'hagridden' and he's not that, IMO. I've always thought it a bit odd. A felicitous thought. The other day Milz said that 'hagrid' was a Hardyesque dialect word for indigestion. Crossword clue: ' Big character appears to have ruddy indigestion' Ans. Rubeus Hagrid. I've just looked in the 1902 Wessex dialect glossary provided on-line by The Thomas Hardy Association. I can't find that definition, but it does have, Hag-rod = 'bewitched'. Eloise > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eloiseherisson at aol.com Fri Sep 20 13:02:53 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 09:02:53 EDT Subject: Snape's DE past (was:Re:Snape's "mind set") Message-ID: <119.17ac3d74.2abc767d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44245 In a message dated 20/09/2002 04:05:20 GMT Standard Time, kellybroughton at yahoo.com writes: > I cannot help but notice that you make the assumption that Snape's DE > background is well-known... but is it? I have to wonder. Granted, Harry is > still learning things about the WW while he lives in it, but until PoA he > didn't have a clue that Snape used to be a DE, and neither did Ron (who > you think would know, if Snape's past IS "common knowledge") or Hermione. Eloise: A great many people make the same asssumption, which in itself is not unreasonable, given the apparently public outing he gets in the Pensieve hearing. I don't pay too much attention to Harry's ignorance, given that he knows nothing about the WW and isn't interested in finding out anything that doesn't advance the plot! That's an exaggeration, but things like never having heard of Azkaban in over a year of living in the WW beggar belief. But I agree totally that if we hadn't seen that Pensieve scene, we would automatically assume that his background was a secret: there is no sign of it being general knowledge. I think that it *is* secret and that there is some explanation which we don't yet understand for the Pensieve scene. Perhaps some kind of 'binding magical contract' which prevents those present from divulging information about those acquitted. There are problems with this, which I'm sure someone will point out, but I think I have found a canon which may support the idea: At Bagman's court appearance, Rita Skeeter is present. In the Leaky Cauldron, she tells Hermione that she could tell her things about Bagman which would make her hair curl. Yet these things about Bagman don't seem widely known. It implies to me that Rita has had to keep her poison pen under wraps. If Rita can keep quiet.......! Well, you take my point? kel: > From what I can tell from canon, the only ppl who seem to be aware of > Snape's history are: > the Hogwarts faculty (and probrably not all of them) > Eloise: It's not clear to me that 'any' of them know, aside from Dumbledore. Unless you count Crouch/Moody. kel: > the few Slytherins that we actually know of Eloise: Again, I don't actually see evidence of that. Why would they know? kel: > at least some of the DE's (Lucius, for example) > Voldemort Eloise: This is undisputable. Voldemort obviously knows all of them and even though it is commonly though that the DE's operate in cells and don't know the identity of many other DE's, each individual must surely know some others. Lucius *may* know, or he may not. It's not clear. Snape undoubtedly knows that Lucius was a DE though and I have long speculated that his favouritism towards Draco may stem from his resulting cautious approach to Lucius. Whether the latter does, or doesn't know, Snape has to assume that he does. Get on the wrong side of him and he could let the cat out of the bag. Lucius would have the upper hand in any conflict of interests. After all, his past *does* seem to be commonly known, but he has enough power and influence for it not to matter. Snape, OTOH, would be out on his ear. kel: > Harry and co. > Sirius (I think- correct me if I'm wrong) Eloise: I don't think Sirius knows until the end of GoF. He warns Harry about Karkaroff; surely he'd warn him about Snape too, if he knew. kel: > Speaking of Sirius, he had no clue what it meant when Harry tells him > about Karkaroff showing Snape something on his left arm in PoA, which does > make me wonder if he knew Snape was a DE. If there are others that know, > Rowling has not yet seen fit to let us know about it. Eloise: It doesn't seem to be universally known that DE's have the Dark Mark branded on their arm. If it were, and iven that he knows Karkaroff was a DE, Sirius would understand what he was showing Snape, wouldn't he? Snape even feel the need to explain about it to Fudge. I don't know how the MOM managed to miss then on the DE's it captured before Voldemort's fall, but they seem to have. And of course, Karkaroff knows. I wonder if we'll see him again? But I don't see that it *can* be common knowledge. I'm sure the parents and Governors wouldn't stand for an ex-DE on the staff, no matter how reformed he was. Fudge says he allowed Dumbledore to employ a werewolf, yet seems shocked that he'd employed a DE. And just think of the student rumour machine. All it says about Snape is that he's into the Dark Arts and wants the DADA job. Surely the rumour would be that Snape is into the Dark Arts because 'he was once a follower of You Know Who', if it were common knowledge? Ron says that everyone knows that Lucius was a big supporter of You Know Who. Yet he doesn't know about Snape. I don't see that his past *can* be known. Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 20 13:55:46 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 13:55:46 -0000 Subject: Why Didn't Sirius Tell Dumbledore About the Switch? (WAS: Black Laughing?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44246 Frankie wrote: > without Peter, no one will believe that Sirius wasn't > Voldemort's spy himself (as explained by Dumbledore in > PoA). Now me: I've also wondered why Sirius was laughing at that point, since while it makes sense when you think he's the bad guy, it doesn't make sense (to me, anyway) once you find out he's actually a good guy. What I've also wondered is why Sirius didn't tell Dumbledore about the secret-keeper switch after Peter's betrayal of the Potters. Sirius didn't meet up with Peter until the next day, so there should have been time for Sirius to talk to Dumbledore about this. This also ties in with my wonderings about why the Potters didn't use Dumbledore as their secret-keeper in the first place. Makes me wonder if they didn't trust Dumbledore for some reason. ~Phyllis From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Fri Sep 20 15:36:36 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb P) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 08:36:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why Didn't Sirius Tell Dumbledore About the Switch? (WAS: Black Laughing?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020920153636.81159.qmail@web13005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44247 erisedstraeh2002 wrote: Frankie wrote: > without Peter, no one will believe that Sirius wasn't Voldemort's spy himself (as explained by Dumbledore in PoA). Now me: I've also wondered why Sirius was laughing at that point, since while it makes sense when you think he's the bad guy, it doesn't make sense (to me, anyway) once you find out he's actually a good guy. What I've also wondered is why Sirius didn't tell Dumbledore about the secret-keeper switch after Peter's betrayal of the Potters. Sirius didn't meet up with Peter until the next day, so there should have been time for Sirius to talk to Dumbledore about this. This also ties in with my wonderings about why the Potters didn't use Dumbledore as their secret-keeper in the first place. Makes me wonder if they didn't trust Dumbledore for some reason. Frankly, I find myself wondering why anyone is wondering about Sirius' laughter. It wasn't cheerful or maniacal or triumphant laughter, clearly. Based on what he said in PoA, it seems that he was experiencing temporary insanity. He thought he had the bad guys outwitted, that no one in their right mind would think that Peter was close enough to James and Lily to be their Secret Keeper. Then he finds out that he was the one who was outwitted. Which means he just lost three of his four best friends--two who were killed by the third. And he thinks it's his fault. Sirius was hysterical with grief and self-recrimination, it seems to me, and these colliding emotions were manifested externally in the form of hysterical laughter. He went off to Azkaban without further ado, like trying to defend himself or deny culpability, because he did in fact feel that he killed James and Lily. He says exactly that in PoA. Harry accuses him of killing his parents and he confirms this--before telling the whole story. As to Secret Keepers, I thought that Sirius' rationale for it NOT being him was that that would be too obvious. If Sirius was too obvious, Dumbledore would be REALLY obvious. They thought Peter could fly below radar, it seems (so to speak). None of them evidently suspected that he was going to turn them over to Voldemort. The very thing that Sirius did to give his friends the most protection wound up killing them. And the very thing Voldemort seemed to think would make it possible for him to kill Harry--getting Lily out of the way--wound up being HIS undoing. I'm seeing this as a running theme in the books, and wonder how this will show up again. Should be interesting... --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dicentra at xmission.com Fri Sep 20 15:51:08 2002 From: dicentra at xmission.com (dicentra63) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 15:51:08 -0000 Subject: Black vs. Pettigrew: Why was Black Laughing? In-Reply-To: <187.e64c95e.2abbdb24@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44248 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., millergal8 at a... wrote: > In a message dated 9/19/02 5:11:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > rlundgren at g... writes: > > << It was hysterical laughter, desperate >> > > Black was completely hysterical at that point. Think of all the stress he > is under and the emotional rollercoaster he has just been subjected too. > Lots of people laugh when it is completely inappropriate to do such. But I like my theory best: Fudge was lying. He helped in the final stages of framing Sirius, and part of it was embellishing the tale by saying that the Nefarious Sirius Black was engaging in classic maniacal laughter when caught, just as any Evil Overlord worth his salt would do. Laughing just doesn't make sense to me, even given the stress. That his laughter was mentioned twice (by Stan and Fudge) but not by Sirius makes me wonder what *really* happened. --Dicentra, Sirius apologist From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Fri Sep 20 15:59:40 2002 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 15:59:40 -0000 Subject: Hardy on "dumbledores" and "hag-rid" (was Re: Name meanings: ) In-Reply-To: <14e.145b495a.2abc6cf1@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44249 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., eloiseherisson at a... wrote: > A felicitous thought. > The other day Milz said that 'hagrid' was a Hardyesque dialect word for > indigestion. > > Crossword clue: > ' Big character appears to have ruddy indigestion' > Ans. Rubeus Hagrid. > > I've just looked in the 1902 Wessex dialect glossary provided on- line by The > Thomas Hardy Association. I can't find that definition, but it does have, > Hag-rod = 'bewitched'. > > Eloise > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Thomas Hardy, The Mayor of Casterbridge, Chapter 20... 'The sharp reprimand was not lost upon her, and in time it came to pass that for "fay" she said "succeed"; that she no longer spoke of "dumbledores" but of "humble bees"; no longer said of young men and women that they "walked together," but that they were "engaged"; that she grew to talk of "greggles" as "wild hyacinths"; that when she had not slept she did not quaintly tell the servants next morning that she had been "hag-rid," but that she had "suffered from indigestion." ' Milz From mercia at ireland.com Fri Sep 20 16:47:10 2002 From: mercia at ireland.com (meglet2) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 16:47:10 -0000 Subject: Black vs. Pettigrew: Why was Black Laughing? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44250 Delurking because I also feel the need to respond to this thread. I think sirius was laughing because, as he says in the Shrieking Shack, he has just realised that 'little Peter has got the better of me.' To me his laughter has been, not so much a reaction of hysteria, as the bitter self mocking laughter of someone who realises how deeply he has been outwitted by the one person he had always written off as negligable and of no account. I do think Sirius went after Peter with murder in mind. He thought he would have no problem with the little hanger on who always seemed a bit slow on the uptake and a bit lacking in wizarding skills. After all the other three had had to help him out before he could manage his animagus transformation at all. And now this appparantly weakest member of the group, whom popular, confident Sirius probably only just tolerated, has managed to outwit him and frame him for mass murder as well as getting away with the betrayal and massacre of the Potters. And without evidence, now that Peter has literally slipped away, Sirius knew very well no-one would believe him. It would be enough to make anyone laugh hysterically, let alone someone as emotionally raw as Sirius at that point. He knew probably from the instant of the blast that he was facing life in Azkaban or worse. He had to either laugh or cry hysterically! The irony of it tipped him into laughter which of course only increased eveyone's belief in his lunacy. It is one of those moments which greatly deepens my sympathy for Sirius even though I can see how he could have been insufferably arrogant as a teenager. Mercia From crussell at arkansas.net Fri Sep 20 17:24:53 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 17:24:53 -0000 Subject: Why Didn't Sirius Tell Dumbledore About the Switch? (WAS: Black Laughing?) In-Reply-To: <20020920153636.81159.qmail@web13005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44251 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Barb P wrote: > He went off to Azkaban without further ado, like trying to defend himself or deny culpability, because he did in fact feel that he killed James and Lily. He says exactly that in PoA. Harry accuses him of killing his parents and he confirms this--before telling the whole story. Now me: This is how I see it too. How else would anyone react? Speaking personally, If I thought I was in anyway responsible for my best friends death-I would be hysterical too. So full of guilt and remorse-that I would accept any punishment-at that point. Obviously even 12 years after the fact, by PoA, Sirius is still feeling somewhat responsible. IMO, this makes Sirius the kind of friend or guardian anyone would want to have (I love Sirius!). Barb says: And the very thing Voldemort seemed to think would make it possible for him to kill Harry--getting Lily out of the way--wound up being HIS undoing. I'm seeing this as a running theme in the books, and wonder how this will show up again. Should be interesting... Now me: Very interesting- If everything were simple-how much fun would that be? There has to be some curves thrown in-just to keep us guessing. Just when we think we've got it fiqured out-BAM!! we are broadsided by a bludger. JKR is playing a game of quidditch with us-and we better stay on our toes-or our brooms, so to speak. bugaloo37 From pacific_k at hotmail.com Fri Sep 20 17:13:46 2002 From: pacific_k at hotmail.com (pacificlippert) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 17:13:46 -0000 Subject: The Draco and Harry saga (was Re: Draco's need to be) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44252 "Fyre Wood" wrote: > In order for Draco to hurt Harry, he insults Hermione and Ron... > meaning that he does it indirectly, intentionally. He knows better > than to cause pain to Potter directly, but rather uses the "Hermione > Card" and the "Ron Card" repeatedly. Actually, he hasn't missed a chance to humiliate or demean Harry--he's certainly insulted him to his face many times. He routinely recounts/re-enacts the humiliating, hurtful, or dangerous thing that Harry experiences, such as Harry's reaction to the Dementors on the train and the Quidditch field (pre-Patronus). And let's not forget the "Potter Stinks" buttons. Draco lost no time in making those, nor was he shy about handing them out to the rest of the school, something that was obviously (IMO) intended to hurt Harry. Karie From annemehr at yahoo.com Fri Sep 20 17:36:41 2002 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 17:36:41 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Malfoys Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44253 The biggest thing I have against Snape is the way he treats Draco. He knows how Draco is being raised (I can't believe that he wouldn't know about Lucius' role as a DE), and yet he does nothing but encourage Draco down that path. I find this very hard to get over, even accepting Eloise's suggestion that he is afraid of Lucius' influence. A weaker point against Snape is that Harry's scar hurts him in PS/SS when he first catches Snape's eye, but I suppose it could have just been a coincidence in that Quirrell/Voldemort could have just caught sight of Harry at that moment -- that would match up well with later scar pains... Speaking of Lucius' influence, does anyone suppose that his large contributions to St. Mungus' Hospital could be buying him influence there which is keeping the Longbottoms incapacitated? Remember in GoF that Rita had an article with some nasty quotes about Harry which were supposed to be from some wizards there, although knowing Rita, she could have just been twisting someone's innocent commments... "annemehr" From jodel at aol.com Fri Sep 20 17:54:32 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 13:54:32 EDT Subject: Snape's "mind set" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44254 Kelly reites; >>I cannot help but notice that you make the assumption that Snape's DE background is well-known... but is it?<< I would say that the British WW is a very small world and that most peoiple who were around at the time paid a LOT of attention to the Nuremburg, sorry, Death Eater trials. And, given wizarding lifespans most of the people who were around 10-13 years ago are STILL around. After all, the Voldemort "war" is the most exciting thing that had happened in the ww in 30 years. It affected EVERYBODY. Besides with the Shytherins swaggering around tasitly proclaiming "Snape is one of US, and you know who WE are!" (wink, wink, nudge, nudge...) Even if he HADN'T been a DE people would believe he had. As head of Slytherin there is no way to distance himself from the association. As to Sirius not recognizing the reference to Karkaroff's Dark Mark; I have't any easy answers there. Probably a mental lapse on Sirius's part, since HE was the one to bring up the point that Snape had been part of the crowd which had just about all joined the Dark Side in the first place. Possibly the wizarding public wasn't informed that Voldemort's foillowers bore his mark. (Although you would think that that is the kind of information that would leak.) Given that Sirius had spent 12 years evesdropping on Death Eaters in Azkaban I certainly can't account for it. But unless the "Snape has already been cleared in this court" remark refers to a secret trial (which I suppose it could) I cannot see how there wouldn't have at least been a record of his having been formally charged somewhere. -JOdel From jodel at aol.com Fri Sep 20 17:54:36 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 13:54:36 EDT Subject: Voldemort's Campaign Message-ID: <25.2dd6bd71.2abcbadc@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44255 Just to insert my own interpretation into the mix... My own take on the Voldemort/pureblood question is that Riddle himself doesn't give a squat about halfbloods. He dispises Muggles (with perhaps some good reason. We know nothing about that orphanage he was raised in) and he extends this loathing to Muggle-borns. "Wizards" on the other hand, are NOT on the "other hand", he resents them like poison. He made up his mind in his teens that he was going to see to it that every wizard in the world was going to fear to speak his name. And I don't think he cares whether those wizards are pureblood or half-blood. But we also have pretty strong evidence that he is more than willing to use other people's prevailing prejudices to further his own interests. (I've already made my statement about how he used the ww's anti-giant bias to his own advantage when he chose to frame Hagrid.) So he will talk the "pureblood" talk to his followers, since they seem to expect that sort of thing. But there does seem to be a certain "canned" quality to his rhetoric on that subject, doesn't there? I don't think I am imagining it. -JOdel From anne_conda at web.de Fri Sep 20 17:51:19 2002 From: anne_conda at web.de (anniemagus) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 17:51:19 -0000 Subject: money in WW Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44256 I often wondered how much money you NEED in WW at all ( if you don't have children needing money to buy school stuff etc). How much you can get with a simple spell? If you want to have a fresh fish for example- isn't it possible you point your wand at a....er...a lousy drawer and transfigure it into a delicious perch*licksherlips*? You don't need ANY money if you know all the ingredients for an oh so tasty meal and all the fitting transfiguration charms, do you?...and you don't need any clothes too, when you're hard- boiled enough to wingadium leviosa ( see what a muggle I am...I don't know how to spell) your neighbors washing, right? ;)...I am just wondering. And of course a MoM is very,VERY important; in the WW seem to be sheer ENDLESS ways to rape, rob and raid with the easy use of a spell, potion, hex or charm. (So: Fire, scissors, poisons and wands don't belong into children hands... German saying) .annie.magus. just warming up for a yummmmmmy perch From eloiseherisson at aol.com Fri Sep 20 18:12:27 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 14:12:27 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hardy on "dumbledores" and "hag-rid" (was Re: Name meanin... Message-ID: <9f.2d6014e1.2abcbf0b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44257 In a message dated 20/09/2002 17:01:04 GMT Standard Time, absinthe at mad.scientist.com writes: > Hardy, The Mayor of Casterbridge, Chapter 20... > > 'The sharp reprimand was not lost upon her, and in time it came to > pass that for "fay" she said "succeed"; that she no longer spoke > of "dumbledores" but of "humble bees"; no longer said of young men > and women that they "walked together," but that they were "engaged"; > that she grew to talk of "greggles" as "wild hyacinths"; that when > she had not slept she did not quaintly tell the servants next morning > that she had been "hag-rid," but that she had "suffered from > indigestion." ' > > Thanks. I wasn't doubting it was there in Hardy, just noting that I couldn't find it in the Wessex Dialect Glossary! But now I think about it, even in that passage, I think that the meaning may be 'hagridden', rather than 'indigestion' per se, in that 'hagridden' denotes having nightmares, something that is also associated in some people's minds with digestive upset: eg the result of eating cheese late in the evening. In fact it's in _A Christmas Carol_ isn't it, when Scrooge tells Marley's ghost, "You may be an undigested bit of beef, a blot of mustard, a crumb of cheese, a fragment of an underdone potato. " *If* I'm right, she was still showing her sophistication by acknowledging that her nightmares were the result ot digestive upset (a scientific explanation), rather than a country girl's quaint and superstitious idea that nightmares were caused by some evil spirit (the 'mare' bit of nightmare comes from the Old English for incubus, an idea reflected in Pullman's use of the word, 'nightghast'.) 'Walked together' isn't dialect either. I'm no expert on Wessex dialect. But I'm not *convinced* that 'hagrid' is a dialect word, though it may well mean just as you say. Eloise Trying desperately not to sound argumentative, but just intrigued. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Fri Sep 20 18:42:58 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 18:42:58 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Canon College: Comfort-Hurt and Crouch's Redemption In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44258 Professor Eileen Lucky-Kari looks a little aimlessly about the campus of Canon College. After those crushing final exams she administered, and that unfortunate... experience with Professor George, she felt that she deserved a vacation. But in the back of her mind two words have been appearing again and again: "Comfort hurt, comfort hurt,comfort hurt..." Each time she remembers these words, she has an urge to go and face down Captain Cindy. But fear strikes at her heart. Captain Cindy is an Imperius expert, said to have learnt the trade from the great Mulciber himself. Whenever Eileen confronts Cindy, she ends up walking dreamily out of the office, a vacant but happy expression on her face. Still, what else is there to do but try? Cindy is working as an intern in Florence Theories, is she not? Sure enough, Eileen finds Cindy organizing chairs in her lab. "Hello, Professor!" says Cindy, smiling broadly. "I loved your class: Death Eaters and Aurors 101. I learnt so much. Honestly, I never thought we were going to be discussing Alexandr Solzhenitsyn more than Crouch Sr. Though Solzhenitsyn was so interesting," she finishes lamely. "Why all the chairs?" asks Eileen. "I'm having a group of new HP fans in here any minute," says Cindy. "Field trip." "Are you sure you won't shatter their innocent young minds with some of those Florence theories?" "Oh, no," says Cindy. "We're sticking with some of the safer and sweeter theories. No "Peter Doesn't Get the Girl" or Florence trapazoids. Just good old Florence was Sirius's sister who was kissing Snape, or even better, Bertha Jorkins made the whole thing up. Later, they can learn more about the whole depraved field." "Talking of depraved...." "You're always talking of depraved," says Cindy sternly. "You aren't hear to discuss the comfort-hurt theory, are you?" "No, I am not! I demand an apology for that. How dare you insinuate that I liked to be hurt and power was the ultimate aphrodisiac?" "I wasn't too far off the mark though, was I? Look what you said to Elkins in that restaurant: --------------- "I have dreams sometimes," sighed the Professor. "Dreams about trembling in the dock, with Bartemius Crouch presiding over my tribunal--" --------------- "Did I say that?" asks Eileen. "Elkins seems to indicate so," said Cindy, crossing her arms. "And since when did we trust Elkins?" "She's always spot on about you," said Cindy. "Like when she said you tortured your dolls, and she was right, remember?" "O.K. Fine! So I did have a dream where I was being sent to Azkaban by Barty Crouch for using the Cruciatus curse! Not very strange, considering the sort of conversations we have on this list. Anyway, I came to talk about Crouch's redemption." "Crouch's alleged redemption." "Crouch's redemption, darnit! Cindy, your arguments were... well.... not that good. I have no idea why I gave you an A." "Personal charisma?" asks Cindy. "It's too late now to change the mark, by the way." "Yes. I know. But look here. Look at what you said." >> "Oh, that's no problem at all," Cindy says. "See, there's *no way* > Crouch is seeking redemption there. I mean, the whole redemption > theory rests on the premise that Crouch was trying to undo the > wrongs he committed by springing his son from Azkaban, right? > Crouch by this point *knew* that Harry was in a lot of danger. He > mentions Voldemort and Harry. He knew the whole plan to restore > Voldemort. Yet Crouch *insists* on speaking to Dumbledore. "Cindy, didn't you forget that the text explicitly states that Crouch does not recognize Harry?" Cindy gulps. "Not only that, but he shows a fear that Harry is one of Voldemort's servants. He asks Harry if he is Dumbledore's, to which Harry assents, but I think that conclusively proves he had no idea who Harry was." "I..." "Concede. The. Point." says Eileen in her best Elkins tone. "I'll think about it," says Cindy shortly. "Anyway, I don't understand why you wanted Crouch blabbing everything to Harry either," continues Eileen. "I suppose you'd also have wanted Snape to go to James Potter instead of Dumbledore? Even if Crouch had been sane and recognized Harry, he would have been right to follow Harry into the castle and talk to Dumbledore. Dumbledore's been running everything on the principle that Harry doesn't need to know that much of what's going on. Crouch knows that. Everyone knows that. It bugs us readers to death, but that's how the Potterverse works. For some reason, the big strategic information is not for Harry's ears." "Be that as it may," says Cindy. "You haven't adressed my main point." >Crouch hopes to > pull a *Snape!* Eileen begins to laugh. "That's your main point? That Crouch hoped to pull a *Snape?* Well, of course he did. Are you now saying that Snape wasn't redeemed?" Cindy looks hurt. "No, it's not the same. Snape went to Dumbledore because... wait didn't I once propose that Snape wasn't redeemed?" "Yes, wasn't that what all those "Mercy" and "Prince of Lies" theories were about? Though, I'm not sure," says Eileen. "They were confusing. Give me George any day." "Anyway, for the moment, let's assume the Georgian model. Snape went to Dumbledore not because he was afraid of Voldemort but because he realized that what Voldemort was doing was plain wrong. You're attempting to compare this to Barty Crouch, trying to stop Voldemort from "going all tasmanian devil on him!" cries Cindy. "No, I'm not really. Snape's redemption and Crouch's redemption are two different things. But I'm saying you are right in this: >"Crouch is hurting. He has only one thing in his mind ?- > survival, a safe haven. And the only thing he links to that is > Dumbledore. Remember, Crouch was right there in the Pensieve scene > when Dumbledore revealed that Snape was a spy. So naturally, Crouch > thinks of Dumbledore as someone who can protect him -- the way he > protected Snape. Crouch's turning to Dumbledore is instinctive, > really. The *survival* instinct -- the very strongest instinct of > them all." "So, you admit I'm right?" asks Cindy increduously. "Absolutely," says Eileen. "And I'm not sure how you find this incompatible with the fact that he seems heartbroken over what he has done. I mean, in your world, of course, Crouch should have just sucked it all up, written a note to Dumbledore explaining what he did, and committed ritual suicide, but as a sycophant, I'd like to point out the tempting aspects of survival..." "Not very high-minded," snorts Cindy. "No, not high-minded at all. Like Snape, avoiding a liftime in Azkaban. If he really was redeemed, shouldn't he have felt obligated to go and join his Death Eater associates there? Surely, you're not one of those readers who believe Snape never did anything really terrible? Put it this way. I don't believe Crouch has to be resigned to being murdered by Voldemort to be considered redeemed." Cindy opens her mouth. Then closes it again. "And then, there was the humpty-dumptied Big Bang assessment you did: >look what > happens if we do a Bang assessment. What's Bangier? Crouch as > whining, groveling confessor or Crouch as scheming, desperate > extortionist? Give me 'Crouch Cuts A Deal' any day." "How, Cindy is that bangy? Have you forgotten what Big Bang means? Let me refresh your memory." Eileen whips out a copy of the Hypothetic Alley map. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin% 20Files/hypotheticalley.htm "I solemly swear that I am about to theorize!" she says, tapping the map with her wand. "Hey!" cries Cindy. "I helped write that map." "I know. I'm going to be quoting you, actually. Let's look up Big Bang, shall we?" ------------------- The "Big Bang" theory is an all-encompassing approach to canon theorizing based on the notion that JKR herself prefers to use highly dramatic, cinematic, or even melodramatic events to serve as catalytic turning points in her characters' lives. ------------------- "Ahem," says Eileen. "I think my point should be clear, but let's take a look at the famous movie-scene analogy." "Forget the movie-scene analogy," says Cindy savagely. ------------------- "Indeed, Big Bangers have a rather rigid bright line test to assist us in determining which theories are acceptable. If we can't imagine a climactic, Oscar-worthy scene in which a character chooses a dramatically different path because of a Big Event, then the theory won't fly under Big Bang." -------------------- "I should think being Imperioed by EvilBaby!Voldemort, forced to help out with the plan to resurrect Voldemort, and finally escaping after being locked in the basement would qualify as a Big Event, wouldn't it? Enough to make Crouch choose a dramatically different path. To understand the error of his ways?" says Eileen, lazily regarding the Map. For an explanation of the acronyms and theories in this post, visit Hypothetic Alley at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin20Files/hypothe ticalley.htm and Inish Alley at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database? ethod=reportRows&tbl=13 From kaityf at jorsm.com Fri Sep 20 18:55:55 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 13:55:55 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape: What is he up to? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020920130704.03106190@mailhost.jorsm.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44259 I hope my reply to this thread isn't too late -- work has seriously interfered with the more important aspects of my life, like participating in HPforGrownups. Anyway... >"bugaloo37" wrote: > > After learning about the werewolf incident and James' > > rescue of Snape, I still do not feel satisfied that this is the root > > of Snape's ambiguous relationship with Harry. I do not > > see the unrequited love scenario as being a plausible explanation > > either I just got to thinking - are there anymore > > theories out there concerning Snape's ambiguous relationship with > > Harry other than the childhood grudge or unrequited love theories? I feel the same way. I am not satisfied with any of the explanations proposed so far dealing with Snape's ambiguous feelings toward Harry. They all make sense, but only to a point for me. Something is still missing. Rosey wrote: >We know that Voldy wanted to kill Harry & James, and not necessarily >Lily, so that makes both Harry & James special if Voldy wanted to >specifically kill them. So, what if this "special" thing, and also >the fact that they are both talented at quidditch and popular, makes >Snape so jealous? He may have been popular at school, but only with >the slimy Slytherins. IMO, No-one from any other houses would have >gone within a 10-mile radius of him. > >My thory - James was, and Harry is, everything Snape wasn't. Cue the >jealousy. I agree that jealousy plays a role in Snape's attitude/feelings toward Harry, but I don't think it has to be about Quidditch or even any special talent. I'll bet it does have something to do with popularity, though. Ksnidget said: > What Snape wants most (recognitions, celebrity, fame, honors) > he doesn't get. Those that are getting them, particularly if > they may not deserve them, are very annoying to him. And he > is do damn honest to just play nice to the people he can't stand. I don't know about Snape being terribly honest; I see him as bitter and rather petty. Even so, I think Ksnidget is right about the rest of it. Snape reminds me of the person who works hard, does well (very well) and still doesn't get the kind of attention he thinks he deserves. What I think he lacks is charisma. Some people have it, some don't. James Potter clearly had it, and Snape clearly doesn't. Charisma isn't something you can work at and improve on. It's either there or it isn't. That could help explain some of Snape's resentment. He might have been better at his studies than James, but still didn't get the kind of attention or recognition that James got. He simply isn't terribly likable. I get the impression that James was a more fun-loving guy (Marauder's map, etc.), while Snape doesn't have much of a sense of humor. Now here comes Harry, James' son, who has already achieved fame, and not through any effort on his part, but rather from something that happened when he was a baby and can't even remember. Harry is also likable, just as James was. This has to be really annoying to Snape. bugaloo37 said: >why does Snape go out of his way to protect Harry? Is he doing this, >as Dumbledore has surmized to repay a life-debt to James Potter? >This is a very simple solution to the question. But for some reason, >I have a hard time accepting it. I do too, mainly because it is much too simple and I don't see Snape as a simple character. bugaloo37 continued: >Is Snape saving Harry to save >himself? By this I mean, does he have the same secret knowledge >that Dumbledore has in regards to Harry's special abilities which if >cultivated could be used to defeat Voldemort? I am >merely stating that Snape may recognize the special abilities of >Harry (especially since he was able to withstand Voldemort when he >was just a mere baby) and realize that he could be the WW best chance >for defeating Voldemort. I know it looks like I have settled the >debate at least for myself, but I would like to hear any other ideas >that are out there. This makes sense to me. For one thing, I think it fits in with the Slytherian's Machiavellian mentality. It doesn't matter if Snape likes Harry or not; if he sees a way to make use of Harry and his abilities to defeat Voldemort, then he will, especially if he'll look good for doing it. If he helps protect Harry, he may think he will be appreciated for that. Even if Snape doesn't *know* what Harry's special abilities are, he still may believe that Harry could be a good "tool" to use against Voldemort. He must, however, believe that whatever those abilities are, Harry doesn't need to be "trained up a bit" in order to use them. Otherwise he wouldn't keep trying to get Harry expelled. So, while some of this does make sense, some of it is still problematic. Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From crussell at arkansas.net Fri Sep 20 19:03:23 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 19:03:23 -0000 Subject: Sirius Black-What a Guy! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44260 I have read post after post by people who like Snape and/or Draco. But how many of you out there are a "Sirius Fan"? I know a few of you pop up every once in a while-but there does not seem to be a very broad fan base for my favorite guy. Let me tell you why I like this character and you can tell me if you agree or disagree with my assessment. First of all, I do not think that anyone could have a more loyal friend than Sirius. He is passionately loyal-in fact, he is passionate about everything. There is no half-heartedness in Sirius. Look at how wracked with guilt he was over James and Lily. I will admit this particular quality can get you in hot water sometimes- it lets you act without thinking things out first-but there are always drawbacks to living on the edge. Second, Sirius shows wonderful care and concern for Harry, his best friend's child. IMO, this is more than just a moral obligation he is fulfilling, I think it goes deeper than that. I think that Sirius genuinely loves Harry - perhaps because he sees James in him. Third, he was able to admit to his mistaken ideas concerning Remus Lupin. I found the scene between Remus and Sirius in the Shrieking Shack in PoA very touching indeed (by the way, I love Lupin too-in case anyone wants to talk about him). What else can I say? The man was strong enough to withstand Azakaban (even though it did weaken him somewhat). What kind of strength of character does that take? Come on you Sirius fans- it's time to stand up and be counted!! bugaloo37 From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Fri Sep 20 19:32:49 2002 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (Marcus ) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 19:32:49 -0000 Subject: money in WW In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44261 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "anniemagus" wrote: > > I often wondered how much money you NEED in WW at all ( if you don't > have children needing money to buy school stuff etc). How much you > can get with a simple spell? If you want to have a fresh fish for > example- isn't it possible you point your wand at a....er...a lousy > drawer and transfigure it into a delicious perch*licksherlips*? Gives a whole new meaning to the phrase, "eaten out of house and home." :-) Have you priced drawers lately? I have. There is no way I am going to change an expensive drawer into a meal! Seriously, you still do need the raw materials. Rowling has stated that things created out of thin air do not last. I hate to think what would happen to a body after digesting food made from thin air when the nuitrients go 'poof'. If you are going to create food by magic, you undoubtedly have to have raw ingredients some place where they can be transported to your kitchen and transfigured into edible food. If memory serves correctly, magically appearing food occurs only twice in the Harry Potter series -- not counting the food transport from the kitchen to the Great Hall tables. They are the sauce that came out of Molly Weasley's wand, and the sandwiches that fed Ron and Harry in Snape's office. The sandwiches are easily explained. Somewhere there is a snack larder that the teachers can tap into when in need, such as working late. McGonagall simply tapped into it for Ron and Harry. The sauce likely came from somewhere else and was transported to saucepan via Molly's wand. Marcus From kaityf at jorsm.com Fri Sep 20 19:31:49 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 14:31:49 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius Black-What a Guy! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020920140734.031c7c50@mailhost.jorsm.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44262 At 07:03 PM 9/20/2002 +0000, bugaloo37 wrote: >Come on you Sirius fans- it's >time to stand up and be counted! I'm here! I'm definitely a Sirius fan. I have to admit, though, that I'm afraid of what JKR has in store for him. I liked Mad-eye Moody too and look what he turned out to be! Sure, he wasn't the real Mad-eye, but we didn't know that till the end of the book, did we? However, from what I've seen of Serius, I do like him a lot, for all the reasons bugaloo37 mentions. bugaloo37's reasons: >He is passionately loyal-in fact, he >is passionate about everything. There is no half-heartedness in >Sirius. Look at how wracked with guilt he was over James and Lily. Yes, to the point where he would even say he killed them, since he felt so responsible for their deaths. >I >will admit this particular quality can get you in hot water sometimes- > it lets you act without thinking things out first-but there are >always drawbacks to living on the edge. Maybe, but do we have any indications that Sirius was like that? I'm not sure being passionate about things is the same as living on the edge. I also don't think that it necessarily causes one to act without thinking. Sirius has had a long time to sit and think about things in Azkaban and he's pretty sure who was responsible for leading Voldemort to the Potters. He wants revenge, more than revenge actually. He wants the culprit punished, even if he has to mete out the punishment himself. I think Sirius, on top of his loyalty and passion, has a deep sense of justice. bugaloo37 goes on: >Second, Sirius shows >wonderful care and concern for Harry, his best friend's child. IMO, >this is more than just a moral obligation he is fulfilling, I think >it goes deeper than that. I think that Sirius genuinely loves Harry - >perhaps because he sees James in him. Again, I agree that Sirius offer to take Harry in is based more on moral obligation. There is a genuine warmth in that offer. It may be because he sees James in Harry, but I think it's more than that. I think he not only loves Harry, but likes him and respects him as well. I guess what I'm trying to say is that while Sirius might see James in Harry, he can also recognize Harry as a good person in his own right. His desire, not just to take Harry in, but to create a family life with him, is something I found very touching. More from bugaloo37: >Third, he was able to admit to >his mistaken ideas concerning Remus Lupin. I found the scene between >Remus and Sirius in the Shrieking Shack in PoA very touching indeed Again, I agree. It takes a particular type of person to admit mistakes. It also shows, I think, that Sirius does not really act without thinking. Passionate and loyal though he is, he is willing to listen and rethink his position. How different that is from Snape, who wants to just go ahead with the sentence put on Sirius without listening to a thing. Who was in a more likely position to be calm and willing to listen? Certainly not Sirius. Yet, he is the one who did just that. bugaloo37 again: > What else can I say? The man was strong enough to withstand >Azakaban (even though it did weaken him somewhat). What kind of >strength of character does that take? Incredible strength of character. I find this even more admirable, because Sirius could have spent his years there building up resentment and hatred, but he didn't really. If he had, I think it would have been harder to stop and listen to what Lupin had to say. It would have been harder to stop from killing Pettigrew. Instead, he sat in Azkaban, trying to stay sane and feeling horribly guilty for the deaths of his best friends. It's odd, too, because it's clear he could have escaped sooner, using the same strategy he ultimately did use. Why wait all those years? Particularly if he knew he wasn't guilty of the crime? It's as if he felt he deserved to be there for his role, unwitting though it was, in the Potter's deaths. It wasn't until he saw that Pettigrew was alive and well and at Hogwarts that he escaped. His sense of justice took over. Pettigrew needed to be punished -- and Harry needed to be protected. Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From titacats at yahoo.com Fri Sep 20 19:44:44 2002 From: titacats at yahoo.com (titacats) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 19:44:44 -0000 Subject: Magical Tantrums WAS Re: Why Can't Hagrid Do Magic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44263 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jesta Hijinx" wrote: > >snip< > I wonder about small children, like little Kevin in GoF engorging the slug > -t hat was reasonably harmless, if visually gross and hard on the poor slug, > but what about three-year-olds throwing magical temper tantrums? > > Felinia > When little Kevin was engorging the slug he was using his father's wand. I believe his mother reprimanded him for "taking daddy's wand again", or something to that effect. However that shows that the child would still need a wand to focus his/her magic through. Obviously there is some sort of manifestation of the child's abilities through wandless magic, such as Harry suddenly finding himself on top of the school roof, but what age would this possibly appear? I mean a three year old having a full blown tantrum with wandless magic thrown in boggles the mind. Titacats From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Fri Sep 20 19:52:34 2002 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (Marcus ) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 19:52:34 -0000 Subject: Sirius Black-What a Guy! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44264 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bugaloo37" wrote: > I have read post after post by people who like Snape and/or Draco. > bugaloo37 I think you are confusing "like to read about" with "like as a person." I do not like Snape. He is a Mean Ugly Shnook. However, he is by far the most interesting character in the books. I can't wait to see Rowling peel back the layers of this guys so we can understand him better. However, I do not like him, never have. As to Sirius, I have a serious problem (no pun intended) with his temper. Slashing up the Fat Lady was just pathetic. Even Snape wouldn't do that! Seeking to take the law into his own hands with Petigrew is not the trait of somebody I want to get to know. Even Lupin got caught up in it. If it hadn't been for Harry, both of his father's remaining best friends would have been guilty of murder, or at best manslaughter. PoA was driven primarily with Black's desire for revenge. If all he wanted was to protect Harry, he could have easily let Dumbledore know, or Lupin for that matter, about Scabbers. Dumbledore or Lupin would have done the test, and that would have been that. But he didn't, did he? He wanted his revenge. He keep telling himself that he was doing it for Harry's sake, but once he had Scabbers in his power, he forgot all about Harry and concentrated on destroying Peter. No, Sirius has a big problem with his temper. Now, let me get unjustly locked up for 12 years and see how forgiving I am. :) Hopefully he is coming to grips with it. Marcus From adatole at yahoo.com Fri Sep 20 19:47:57 2002 From: adatole at yahoo.com (Leon Adato) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 15:47:57 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Magical Tantrums WAS Re: Why Can't Hagrid Do Magic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44265 Titacats said: I mean a three year old having a full blown tantrum with wandless magic thrown in boggles the mind. And I reply: I would submit to you that ALL 3 year olds having full blown tantrums are also utilizing wandless magic, and that muggle children simply lose this ability at some age. Objects appear to hurl themselves off shelves, strange disembodied voices echo around the room, and fluid leaks out where it should not. Of course, I could just be over-reacting. I'm just a Dad. My wife thinks it's all perfectly normal. Leon Adato ------------------- "Life is a long lesson in humility." -James M. Barrie, writer (1860-1937) email: adatole at yahoo.com phone: (440) 382-3268 fax: (305) 832-2818 From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 20 20:13:07 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 20:13:07 -0000 Subject: Sirius Black-What a Guy! In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020920140734.031c7c50@mailhost.jorsm.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44266 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Carol Bainbridge wrote: > bugaloo37 goes on: > >Second, Sirius shows > >wonderful care and concern for Harry, his best friend's child. IMO, > >this is more than just a moral obligation he is fulfilling, I think > >it goes deeper than that. I think that Sirius genuinely loves Harry - > >perhaps because he sees James in him. > > Again, I agree that Sirius offer to take Harry in is based more on moral > obligation. There is a genuine warmth in that offer. It may be because he > sees James in Harry, but I think it's more than that. I think he not only > loves Harry, but likes him and respects him as well. I guess what I'm > trying to say is that while Sirius might see James in Harry, he can also > recognize Harry as a good person in his own right. His desire, not just to > take Harry in, but to create a family life with him, is something I found > very touching. I don't know about that. I mean, I love Sirius, and I think his attempts to act as a father figure for Harry in GoF are admirable and touching, but at the time he makes his offer to Harry in PoA, he and Harry barely know each other. They've only just met, and there hasn't exactly been time for a heart-to-heart session. Harry knows Sirius is innocent, and Sirius knows that Harry is brave and decent, and that's pretty much it. At that time, I think Sirius couldn't love Harry as person in his own right, because Sirius didn't *know* Harry as a person in his own right. So what motivated Sirius' offer? I think Sirius saw Harry as his chance at redemption. Sirius holds himself responsible for Harry's being an orphan, and for not being around to take care of him the way a proper godfather should. Now he has a chance to make up for it, to fix his past failure. And from Harry's point of view -- he's desperate for a father figure, desperate to get away from the Dursleys, and desperate for any connection to James. So it's perfectly understandable that he and Sirius instantly glom on to each other, but I think it was a connection based on each person's emotional needs and symbolic meaning to each other, rather than a real relationship. The relationship developed later. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Fri Sep 20 20:13:21 2002 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 20:13:21 -0000 Subject: Hardy on "dumbledores" and "hag-rid" (was Re: Name meanin... In-Reply-To: <9f.2d6014e1.2abcbf0b@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44267 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., eloiseherisson at a... wrote: > > Thanks. I wasn't doubting it was there in Hardy, just noting that I couldn't > find it in the Wessex Dialect Glossary! > I posted it because it's an intersting passage from an unusual source. (And it might continue to dispell that "information" about a Greek mythology connection. I recently read one website and learned that Rubeus Hagrid was the greek god of jewelry---Don't ask me HOW they managed to get that! It seems like they're combining several mythological figures together!) > But now I think about it, even in that passage, I think that the meaning may > be 'hagridden', rather than 'indigestion' per se, in that 'hagridden' > denotes having nightmares, something that is also associated in some people's > minds with digestive upset: eg the result of eating cheese late in the > evening. In fact it's in _A Christmas Carol_ isn't it, when Scrooge tells > Marley's ghost, > > "You may be an undigested bit of beef, a blot of mustard, a crumb of cheese, > a fragment of an underdone potato. " > > *If* I'm right, she was still showing her sophistication by acknowledging > that her nightmares were the result ot digestive upset (a scientific > explanation), rather than a country girl's quaint and superstitious idea that > nightmares were caused by some evil spirit (the 'mare' bit of nightmare comes > from the Old English for incubus, an idea reflected in Pullman's use of the > word, 'nightghast'.) > 'Walked together' isn't dialect either. > > I'm no expert on Wessex dialect. But I'm not *convinced* that 'hagrid' is a > dialect word, though it may well mean just as you say. > > Eloise > Trying desperately not to sound argumentative, but just intrigued. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Well, we'd have to figure out what "indigestion" meant in Hardy's time. ;-) Having suffered a few indisgestive nights myself, it's not fun, lol. The Mayor of Casterbridge is about a guy who in a drunken stupor sells his wife and child one evening at a country fair. When he sobers up the next day and learns what he did, he looks for them. Alas, they are gone and he vows never to touch a drop of alcohol again. Fast forward 20 or so years, he's now mayor of a town. Wife and daughter reappear, after having lived in the wilds of Canada and other parts of England. He and wife "re-marry" (though they technically never divorced). Daughter has no idea that step-dad is real dad. Uh-oh, wife falls ill. Before dying, she writes a letter to hubby and daughter. Hubby's letter reveals that this daughter isn't the same daughter whom he sold years ago, but the daughter of the fellow to whom she was sold. Though he keeps her parentage and how he was duped a secret, he feels a resentment toward her. The quoted passage is from that period of resentment, when he begins chastizing her speech and behavior (not befitting of a "lady" or the daughter of a Mayor). So, with that contextual background in mind, "hag-rid" was an expression considered to be 'de classe' by the in-crowd of Casterbridge. It probably isn't a dialect word; however, it's meaning might be dialectic, similar to "biscuit", which in one region means one thing and in another something else. Whether it means "indigestion" or a "nightmare", it seems to connote something distressingly uncomfortable (and NOT a figure in Greek mythology;-)!) Milz From millergal8 at aol.com Fri Sep 20 20:23:30 2002 From: millergal8 at aol.com (millergal8 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 16:23:30 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Black vs. Pettigrew: Why was Black Laughing? Message-ID: <16f.1413d44d.2abcddc2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44268 In a message dated 9/20/02 8:52:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time, dicentra at xmission.com writes: << But I like my theory best: Fudge was lying. >> Oooh, I do like that idea, and I personally subscribe to the ever-so-evil-Fudge theory, but in this case, I think Fudge is telling the truth. Fudge states on pg 208 (US paperback) that "I was one of the first on the scene...Muggles screaming...". This leads me to believe that not only were there muggle witnesses (before being memory charmed), and MoM wizards that could back up Fudge's version of events. From crussell at arkansas.net Fri Sep 20 20:40:15 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 20:40:15 -0000 Subject: Sirius Black-What a Guy! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44269 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "marinafrants" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Carol Bainbridge wrote: > but at the time he makes his offer to Harry in PoA, he and > Harry barely know each other. Harry knows Sirius is innocent, and Sirius knows that Harry is brave and decent, and that's pretty much it. So what motivated Sirius' offer? I think Sirius saw Harry as his chance at redemption. And from Harry's point of view -- he's desperate for a father figure, desperate to get away from the Dursleys, and desperate for any connection to James. but I think it was a connection based on each person's emotional needs and symbolic meaning to each other, rather than a real relationship. The relationship developed later. > > Marina I think you are right. In my previous post, I was not saying that love was the motivating factor-to begin with. I do agree that Sirius' need to redeem himself on some level had a lot to do with the initial offer of his guardianship. I also agree that Harry's desire to have a real home prompted him to agree. IMO, the light that showed on Sirius' face when Harry accepted was a glimmer of hope that perhaps between the two of them some happiness could be salvaged from a terribly sad situation. Perhaps by helping Harry, Sirius could finally learn to forgive himself. In PoA, we only catch a glimpse at what Harry's and Sirius' future relationship will be-but it was a promising start to the relationship that saw further development in GoF. And by the way, thanks for responding. bugaloo37 From brian042 at hotmail.com Fri Sep 20 20:47:35 2002 From: brian042 at hotmail.com (Brian) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 20:47:35 -0000 Subject: Hardy on "dumbledores" and "hag-rid" (was Re: Name meanin... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44270 Been following this thread with both interest and amusement. I was especially intrigued with the "nightmare" connection, and so formulated a theory that is IN NO WAY (to my knowledge) based on any etymological data. What if a nightmare was a spectral horse (ala Piers Anthony) and its' mount was a hag (ala JKR et. al.)? It would therefore follow that "having a nightmare" would be synonymous with "awakening hag-ridden" or "hag-rid" for short. Just a silly train of thought, but fun. bkb042 From rvotaw at i-55.com Fri Sep 20 21:07:36 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 16:07:36 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] money in WW/ Poor Wizarding Families References: Message-ID: <00a201c260e9$bfda5ac0$be9dcdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 44271 annie.magus writes: > I often wondered how much money you NEED in WW at all ( if you don't > have children needing money to buy school stuff etc). How much you > can get with a simple spell? If you want to have a fresh fish for > example- isn't it possible you point your wand at a....er...a lousy > drawer and transfigure it into a delicious perch*licksherlips*? That may be how the Weasleys always have so much food. Harry had loads more to eat there than he ever had at the Dursleys, even though the Weasleys are poor. I would think they only have to have money for school stuff, things for potions, etc. Not for basic necessities like food. Although they apparently have to buy clothes, because Ron's pajamas are too small. Couldn't they be bewitched to grow with him? This reminds me of something I've been wondering for a while now. Is there another wizarding family that we know is poor other than the Weasleys? They are one of the oldest pure blood families, yet are dirt poor. Why? Is there a possiblity that DE's blackmailed/ ransomed/ etc. in addition to murdering people? Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 20 21:18:19 2002 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 14:18:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius Black-What a Guy! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020920211819.83892.qmail@web20009.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44272 --- bugaloo37 wrote: > But how many of you out there are a "Sirius Fan"? > I know a few of > you pop up every once in a while-but there does not > seem to be a very > broad fan base for my favorite guy. Really?! I thought everybody and his brother was a Sirius fan. I insulted him once (at Gryffindor tower) and people were not happy. And I was only talking about the prank. I can't stand him myself. I mean, as a character he is a little interesting. I can't stand him as a person. Same goes for Snape. I used to love Lupin, but then someone pointed something out to me and . . .well I'm drifting off topic. I just wanted to say that I thought everyone loved Sirius. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From eloiseherisson at aol.com Fri Sep 20 21:28:52 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 17:28:52 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hardy on "dumbledores" and "hag-rid" (was Re: Name meanin... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44273 Brian: > Been following this thread with both interest and amusement. I was > especially intrigued with the "nightmare" connection, and so > formulated a theory that is IN NO WAY (to my knowledge) based on any > etymological data. What if a nightmare was a spectral horse (ala > Piers Anthony) and its' mount was a hag (ala JKR et. al.)? It would > therefore follow that "having a nightmare" would be synonymous > with "awakening hag-ridden" or "hag-rid" for short. Just a silly > train of thought, but fun. > > I like silly etymology! But you're very close to the true etymology, (I *think* - glances nervously at Richard). 'Hagridden' according to my dictionaries has both the meanings 'ridden by witches as a horse' and 'to be beset by nightmares or anxieties'. But yes, the night-mare thing is just like one of those crossword clues I was talking about! Eloise Whose own mount is indeed at this moment a night mare, but hopefully not hag-ridden. Not until the next time her owner gets on her, at least! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kaityf at jorsm.com Fri Sep 20 21:29:16 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 16:29:16 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius Black-What a Guy! In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.1.6.0.20020920140734.031c7c50@mailhost.jorsm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020920161349.03234910@mailhost.jorsm.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44274 Carol (moi) said: >Again, I agree that Sirius offer to take Harry in is based more on moral >obligation. There is a genuine warmth in that offer. It may be because he >sees James in Harry, but I think it's more than that. I think he not only >loves Harry, but likes him and respects him as well. I guess what I'm >trying to say is that while Sirius might see James in Harry, he can also >recognize Harry as a good person in his own right. His desire, not just to >take Harry in, but to create a family life with him, is something I found >very touching. >Marina answered: > >I don't know about that. I mean, I love Sirius, and I think his >attempts to act as a father figure for Harry in GoF are admirable and >touching, but at the time he makes his offer to Harry in PoA, he and >Harry barely know each other. They've only just met, and there hasn't >exactly been time for a heart-to-heart session. Apologies for making it sound as though Harry and Sirius have created a deep bond. I didn't mean that. I do think it's possible to love someone without having gotten to know them terribly well. Now we could debate on whether that is true love, but that gets beyond the point. The point I wanted to make is that Serius has developed some strong feelings for Harry and Harry for Serius. I think they see each other as a way of fullfilling deep needs. But more than that, each sees positive qualities in the other. Imagine if Harry was more like Draco. I don't think the offer for a home would have been quite the same. I think the two genuinely like each other, but the connection is stronger than a simple liking. That strength may come from the outside -- need for redemption, need for homelife, need to connect to parents, etc. -- but it's still more than simple liking. It's what made me agree that Serius loves Harry. I think he does on one level, even if he's only just met him. Marina again: >Harry knows Sirius is >innocent, and Sirius knows that Harry is brave and decent, and that's >pretty much it. At that time, I think Sirius couldn't love Harry as >person in his own right, because Sirius didn't *know* Harry as a >person in his own right. I disagree slightly with this. I think they both had a chance to see the basic qualities of the other. Serius has certainly had a chance to watch Harry, if not interact with him. Harry had a chance to learn why Serius was behaving the way he was and learned a great deal about his loyalty and depth of friendship with his parents. He also learned about his passionate side and his softer side. Of course, all of this could be a mere front (I doubt it, but it's possible). However, that in no way detracts from the attraction the two had for each other and what they were able to see of one another. I think what you see of someone under dangerous, emotionally tense circumstances can tell you a great deal more about that person than what you'd see under normal, every day circumstances. More Marina: >So what motivated Sirius' offer? I think Sirius saw Harry as his >chance at redemption. Sirius holds himself responsible for Harry's >being an orphan, and for not being around to take care of him the way >a proper godfather should. Now he has a chance to make up for it, to >fix his past failure. And from Harry's point of view -- he's >desperate for a father figure, desperate to get away from the >Dursleys, and desperate for any connection to James. So it's >perfectly understandable that he and Sirius instantly glom on to each >other, but I think it was a connection based on each person's >emotional needs and symbolic meaning to each other, rather than a real >relationship. The relationship developed later. I agree with part of this, but also disagree in part. I do think their relationship developed later, but I don't think that the offer and the acceptance were based exclusively on the terms outlined above. I would agree that those things contributed, but weren't the sole motivations. If these were the only motivations, we wouldn't see the same kind of joy and tenderness apparent in that scene. I think the two genuinely already care about each other, even if it is at a relatively superficial level. I think the motivations provided by Marina are a part of it, but it's the part that makes the offer and the acceptance so poignant. Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From crussell at arkansas.net Fri Sep 20 21:42:13 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 21:42:13 -0000 Subject: Sirius Black-What a Guy! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44275 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Marcus " wrote: > I think you are confusing "like to read about" with "like as a person." Now me: Actually who I was refering to were those who post explanations/motivations for Snape's and Draco's behavior. I was simply wanting to express my opinions and offer my explanations for Sirius' behavior. I have no problems distinguishing real people from fictional characters. I use the term "I like Sirius" rather loosely I know-but I simply find it easier to write than "I like Sirius' character" but take it from me-that is what I mean. Marcus says: He keep telling himself that he was doing it for Harry's sake, but once he had Scabbers in his power, he forgot all about Harry and concentrated on destroying Peter. No, Sirius has a big problem with his temper. Now, let me get unjustly locked up for 12 years and see how forgiving I am. Hopefully he is coming to grips with it. Now me: I would be the first to admit that Sirius has a temper problem- he probably had it before he went to Azakaban ( we know he did-look what he tried to do to Snape-pretty extreme was it not?) I do believe that he is coming to terms with it. How else would he be able to shake Snape's hand in GoF? (even though it was a pretty small gesture- it was a start) Every character has its hangups. My criteria for genuinely enjoying a character's personality development is pretty simple-especially in regards to the HP books. I know its childish-but here it is: I find myself drawn to the characters that treat Harry well. I know this is too simplistic. When a character is full of ambiguity like Snape is-helping Harry then insulting him-I have to think harder and what avid reader doesn't enjoy that? bugaloo37 From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Fri Sep 20 21:59:16 2002 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (=?iso-8859-1?q?Iris=20FT?=) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 23:59:16 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius Black-What a Guy! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020920215916.37890.qmail@web21508.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44276 bugaloo37 a ?crit : I have read post after post by people who like Snape and/or Draco. But how many of you out there are a "Sirius Fan"? I know a few of you pop up every once in a while-but there does not seem to be a very broad fan base for my favorite guy. Let me tell you why I like this character and you can tell me if you agree or disagree with my assessment. First of all, I do not think that anyone could have a more loyal friend than Sirius. He is passionately loyal-in fact, he is passionate about everything. There is no half-heartedness in Sirius. Look at how wracked with guilt he was over James and Lily. I will admit this particular quality can get you in hot water sometimes- it lets you act without thinking things out first-but there are always drawbacks to living on the edge. Second, Sirius shows wonderful care and concern for Harry, his best friend's child. IMO, this is more than just a moral obligation he is fulfilling, I think it goes deeper than that. I think that Sirius genuinely loves Harry - perhaps because he sees James in him. Third, he was able to admit to his mistaken ideas concerning Remus Lupin. I found the scene between Remus and Sirius in the Shrieking Shack in PoA very touching indeed (by the way, I love Lupin too-in case anyone wants to talk about him). What else can I say? The man was strong enough to withstand Azakaban (even though it did weaken him somewhat). What kind of strength of character does that take? Come on you Sirius fans- it's time to stand up and be counted!! bugaloo37 Here I am, Bugaloo! I agree with you; Sirius is one of my favourite adult characters in the Potter books. He's a romantic character, he reminds me Edmond Dant?s (Monte-Cristo). As you wrote it, he's loyal (that's why he turns into a dog, according to an essay I read few months ago about our favourite books), devoted; he loves Harry and is probably ready to sacrifice himself for him. But I also agree with Marcus when he says Sirius's got a problem of temper. As a matter of fact, I confess that this dark part of his character is the one I prefer. I don't know if I can explain it well, but I would say about him he's always "on the edge". JKR says in GoF that he has "eyes full of concern, eyes wich had not yet lost the look that Azkaban had given them - that deadened, haunted look." I think all the character of Sirius is in that description of his eyes. On one hand,we know that Harry can trust him, that he 's here to protect him. After all, JKR attributed him a dog as the animal he turns in, and that's symbolical (I hope many members of this group have discussed yet this topic). But on the other hand, Sirius is also the name of the star traditionnaly associated with death and with departed souls. It's quiet logical, if we consider he was James and Lily best friend, and is now a kind of a connection between Harry and them. But he's also sealed by death. No man can stand twelve years in a place like Azkaban , surrounded by dementors and madness, without loosing a part of what made him alive. He lost everything when James and Lily died, when Peter managed to elude his cleverness, when Fudge declared him a criminal and split his honour. I don't know if his love for Harry wil be enough to keep him alive at the end of the adventure. Making predictions is not my cup of tea, but he's a tragical character and we know how tragedies end most of time. From sacrifice to madness, there are many possibilities. And maybe that's why Sirius is such a touching character : he's at the same time a protector to Harry and a man in danger. In danger of being killed, of loosing his mind or his soul, if he gets caught by a dementor or can't resist his own thirst of revenge. A man with a ruined life, helping a child to build his own destiny. Harry's guardian angel is a fallen angel, and this is deeply romantic (in a litterary meaning; I'm not talking about romance and don't believe either the canon Sirius can be percieved as a potential soap-opera hero). JKR knows very well french litterature, her Sirius reminds very much the hero of a nineteenth century novel by Paul F?val, the chevalier of Lagard?re (the title of the novel is The Hunchback). Sirius Black , or the last heir of romantics heroes. I definitely like this character. And I also like Snape, who shares many characteristics with Sirius. Doesn't "Severus" mean sometimes "too serious"? Let's take up a bet: those two guys are brothers. We could take Professor Trelawney as our bookmaker... Iris Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en fran?ais ! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lmccabe at sonic.net Fri Sep 20 22:23:43 2002 From: lmccabe at sonic.net (linda_mccabe) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 22:23:43 -0000 Subject: Wand symbolism (w/links and meanings) In-Reply-To: <009201c252ef$6decebe0$449dcdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44277 Richelle, Forgive the late reply on this matter. I am once again woefully behind in reading the postings. However, maybe that's a good thing because just the other day I wanted to look up the symbolism of different trees for my fan fic. I found a website that has a lot of information regarding the meaning of different plants and trees. http://www.photovault.com/Link/Food/PlantsHerbsSymbolism.html "Richelle Votaw" had written long ago: > First, I've been thinking (oh no!) about wands and wood symbolisms. > Unfortunately, we don't really know the woods of many of the wands. But > I'll work with what we've got. > > Harry's wand is Holly. Holly is used to ask "Am I forgotten?" which makes > sense. It also means foresight. According that the above referenced site it means: Holly: Protection, Anti-Lightning, Luck, Dream Magic Which seems very appropriate for Harry "The Boy Who Lived" Potter. > > Hagrid's wand was oak. Oak stands for hospitality (he is quite hospitable > to Harry) and independence. Also known for strength. > Oak: Protection, Health, Money, Healing, Potency, Fertility, Luck Beats me why that fits with Hagrid. > Lily's wand (first wand, but the only one we know anything about) was > willow. Willow is a symbol of mourning. Less commonly, forsaken love. > Hmm. I won't go there. :) Willow: Love, Divination, Protection, Healing Hmmm, now we're getting somewhere. That reading seems more in line with JKR's meaning. > Cedric's wand was ash. Ash is a symbol of prudence. That suits him as > well. > Ash: Protection, Prosperity, Sea Rituals, Health The protective nature of the wand didn't seem to help Cedric though. > Voldemort's wand is yew. Yew is a symbol of sadness. He has caused plenty > of sadness, sure. I'm sure he experienced a good bit as well, at least back > when he was Tom Riddle the orphan. > Yew: Raising the Dead Very appropriate for Voldemort if you ask me. > Ron's wand is willow. Mourning, forsaken love. Oh, dear. Nah, see above under Lily's. > > James' wand is Mahogany. Can't for the life of me find out what that means. > Anyone know? Mahogany, mountain: Anti-Lightning I wound up choosing to plant an apple tree, which has the meaning: Apple: Love, Healing, Garden Magic, Immortality You might want to check out the site because it has quite a few listings for plants, flowers as well as trees. BTW, according to this site Lily: Protection, Breaking Love spells (unfortunately no listing for Petunia) Lavendar: Love, Protection, Sleep, Chastity, Longevity, Purification, Happiness, Peace Pansy: Love, Rain Magic, Love, Divination Poppy: Fertility, Love, Sleep, Money, Luck, Invisibility Fig: Divination, Fertility, Love and other things mentioned in Potterverse Cabbage: Luck Dragons Blood: Love, Protection, Exorcism, Potency ** (I'm sure this is a plant and not the red liquid stuff) Mandrake: Protection, Love, Money, Fertility, Health Wolfs Bane: Protection, Invisibility Wormwood: Psychic Powers, Protection, Love, Calling Spirits Others I thought were interesting: Garlic: Protection, Healing, Exorcism, Lust, Anti-Theft Plantain: Healing, Protection, Strength, Snake Repelling Rose: Love, Psychic Powers, Healing, Love, Divination, Luck, Protection I hope that helps, Athena **** "You will have to figure out how to deal with Nadine Henderson across the street though," Arabella said. "Who's she?" asked Sirius. "A single mother in her thirties with a small daughter. She looks at any man who's not behind bars or mentally incompetent as a potential future husband. That includes married men, I'm afraid. She'll be drooling the moment she sees you." http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/L_C_McCabe/Sirius_Blacks_Secret_ Love/ From millergal8 at aol.com Fri Sep 20 22:53:46 2002 From: millergal8 at aol.com (millergal8 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 18:53:46 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius Black-What a Guy! Message-ID: <186.e7616b7.2abd00fa@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44278 I Marcus said: As to Sirius, I have a serious problem (no pun intended) with his temper. Slashing up the Fat Lady was just pathetic. Seeking to take the law into his own hands with Petigrew is not the trait of somebody I want to get to know. Me: I completely agree, for Carol's post, I think both these cases are evidense to the passionate and "living on the edge" aspect of of Sirius personality. Why in the world would someone who wants to eventually clear his name, violently slash a painting when you couldn't get what you want? This is not something that a rational innocent person would do. Seems to me that Sirius didn't exactly think before he slashed. Much the same way as a small child acts w/o thinking the consequences through. And I am sorry, but the last thing Sirius wants for Peter is justice. His motivation, and I can't say I don't see where he coming from here, is revenge. Pure and simple revenge. Not only just revenge for himself, but for Lily, James and Harry. Justice for Peter would be being brought up in front of a trial and carted off to Azkaban. Again, Siriur didn't think through his situation. By killing Peter, he would indeed be guilty of murder, putting him right back at square one. How could he care for Harry if he was shipped right back to Azkaban for truly murdering Peter. And keep in mind that it is essential to have Peter alive so the whole story can work itself out at a trial. Another little aspect of Sirius' personality proving his passionate nature is his treatment of Snape. I cannot believe in my heart that Sirius wanted to kill Snape. He was merely playing a "school-boy" prank. Good ole Sirius just was the short term benefits of his little joke. The long term consequence being that Snape is dead. Fortunatly for Sirius, James is pragmatic enough to rescue Snape before something dire happens. Now, after saying all this, let me add that Black is one of my favorite characters. I can relate well to his implusivness. And I can't help but love Harry's long lost guardian. I almost wept when I learned that Harry was being cheated out of a loving home and would once again have to face the dreaded Dursley's for holiday. But I think there are many who would agree that Sirius is not without his faults. Christy From kellybroughton at yahoo.com Sat Sep 21 00:32:10 2002 From: kellybroughton at yahoo.com (kelly broughton) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 17:32:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius Black-What a Guy! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020921003210.68281.qmail@web21104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44279 --- bugaloo37 wrote: > I have read post after post by people who like Snape and/or Draco. > But how many of you out there are a "Sirius Fan"? I know a few of > you pop up every once in a while-but there does not seem to be a very > broad fan base for my favorite guy. Let me tell you why I like this > character and you can tell me if you agree or disagree with my > assessment. First of all, I do not think that anyone could have a > more loyal friend than Sirius. He is passionately loyal-in fact, he > is passionate about everything. There is no half-heartedness in > Sirius. Look at how wracked with guilt he was over James and Lily. I > will admit this particular quality can get you in hot water sometimes- > it lets you act without thinking things out first-but there are > always drawbacks to living on the edge. Second, Sirius shows > wonderful care and concern for Harry, his best friend's child. IMO, > this is more than just a moral obligation he is fulfilling, I think > it goes deeper than that. I think that Sirius genuinely loves Harry - > perhaps because he sees James in him. Third, he was able to admit to > his mistaken ideas concerning Remus Lupin. I found the scene between > Remus and Sirius in the Shrieking Shack in PoA very touching indeed > (by the way, I love Lupin too-in case anyone wants to talk about > him). What else can I say? The man was strong enough to withstand > Azakaban (even though it did weaken him somewhat). What kind of > strength of character does that take? Come on you Sirius fans- it's > time to stand up and be counted!! > > bugaloo37 > You have made some excellent points, and I do agree with you. However, there is one thing that stops me from being a full-blooded Sirius fan... and that is the Prank. The absolute lack of regret from Sirius really gives me pause, bc that incident, to me, is no small matter. Granted, we don't really know what all went down that night or why (Sirius says that Snape "deserved it"(!!!)), but WHY? Because he was always skulking around, trying to bust them all the time? I'm sorry, Sirius fans, but that is unacceptable! In otherwords, if I was ever in a life threatening situation, and my choice came down to Snape or Sirius, I would pick Snape in a heartbeat. There is just something WRONG with a man who almost gets a fellow classmate killed, just for a lark, and is unapologetic to this day. -kel __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From lmccabe at sonic.net Sat Sep 21 00:36:19 2002 From: lmccabe at sonic.net (linda_mccabe) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 00:36:19 -0000 Subject: Sirius Black-What a Guy! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44280 "bugaloo37" Posed a question regarding my favorite character: Sirius Black. bugaloo37 said in part: First of all, I do not think that anyone could have a > more loyal friend than Sirius. He is passionately loyal-in fact, he > is passionate about everything. Very true. Passionate is the word that springs to mind. Maybe that's why so many adult women like myself seem to swoon over him. I swear this is the first fictional character that has captured my imagination. I believe most of it is knowing how much he has suffered. Being unjustly incarcerated and unable to prove your innocence. (Heavy sigh) And then to have him spend the next two years living in a forest or in a cave eating rats! Ugh! That just goes off the scale on the Hurt-Comfort meter for me. Personally, I don't hold it against Sirius for slashing the Fat Lady. Nope, because to me that was simply a literary device by JKR. She wanted somehow for him to get inside the tower and go for Ron and not Harry. Giving us an important clue that he did not wish harm on Harry, but someone or *something* else. In order to get inside, she wanted someone other than the Fat Lady. Enter the weird Sir Cadogan. Which then leads us to having Neville's memory problem being highlighted once again with the passwords on a slip of paper. Nope, things that seem to be totally structured for plot and not necessarily strong character motivations don't make me dwell on them too long. Instead I look at the conversations in the bar about him, the Shrieking Shack scene, and GoF to base my opinion on the guy. Fiercely passionate is what I'd say. And yes, he has a temper. There's no disputing that, but given his history I can't say that I blame him. And I am hoping that in Book 5 that JK Rowling will let Sirius drop the convict-on-the-run look. Make it so he doesn't resemble his Wanted photo. Please Jo clean him up a little. Maybe some new robes, a shave and a haircut. Let him sleep on a nice warm bed and get a decent meal on a regular basis. We know that he's dead sexy, but having matted hair that is probably infested with fleas - well, um, he won't be bagging any babes looking like that! Give him a nice cover so he can actually Have A Life. And if she gave him a steady lover, all the better. ;-) Athena **** "You will have to figure out how to deal with Nadine Henderson across the street though," Arabella said. "Who's she?" asked Sirius. "A single mother in her thirties with a small daughter. She looks at any man who's not behind bars or mentally incompetent as a potential future husband. That includes married men, I'm afraid. She'll be drooling the moment she sees you." http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/L_C_McCabe/Sirius_Blacks_Secret_ Love/ From dicentra at xmission.com Sat Sep 21 00:50:57 2002 From: dicentra at xmission.com (dicentra63) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 00:50:57 -0000 Subject: Sirius Black-What a Guy! In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020920140734.031c7c50@mailhost.jorsm.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44281 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Carol Bainbridge wrote: > > bugaloo37 goes on: > >Second, Sirius shows > >wonderful care and concern for Harry, his best friend's child. IMO, > >this is more than just a moral obligation he is fulfilling, I think > >it goes deeper than that. I think that Sirius genuinely loves Harry - > >perhaps because he sees James in him. > > Again, I agree that Sirius offer to take Harry in is based more on moral > obligation. There is a genuine warmth in that offer. It may be because he > sees James in Harry, but I think it's more than that. Sirius undoubtedly knew Harry rather well when he was a baby. It's funny how you can develop a bond with the child of someone with whom you already have a strong bond. Harry doesn't remember, but Sirius does. He's been thinking and worrying about Harry in Azkaban this whole time, which is why he breaks out in the first place: to protect Harry from Peter. To see what's been said on this very topic, see the following posts and threads from the archives: Why he's popular -- 9526, 25395, 25661 What JKR thinks of him -- 255 His temperament -- 11302, 25757, 14406, 27335, 27781, 29982 The "REAL" Sirius -- 14393, 19137 Why he slashed the Fat Lady -- 12236, 15948, 19125 Relationship to Harry -- 31088, 31101, 27618, 28346, 29962, 31681 --Dicentra, working to get the Sirius FAQ online ASAP From rvotaw at i-55.com Sat Sep 21 01:02:06 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 20:02:06 -0500 Subject: Harry's reaction to insults about his parents Message-ID: <000a01c2610a$ac51bb80$3ba0cdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 44282 I've been pondering what makes Harry react and what doesn't. I've found a few instances when various individuals have insulted Harry's parents and his reactions. I'm trying to determine a pattern here, or perhaps lack thereof. Anyway, if you can think of others, please add them. All quotes are Scholastic paperback edition. Starting with SS/PS, page 294: Voldemort says "Don't be a fool. Better save your own life and join me . . . or you'll meet the same end as your parents . . . They died begging me for mercy . . ." To which Harry responds "LIAR!" Nothing too drastic, but still, screaming at Voldemort is pretty daring, for an eleven year old. Now on to CoS: First, Tom Riddle, page 321: "You'll be back with your dear Mudblood mother soon, Harry . . . She bought you twelve years of borrowed time . . . but Lord Voldemort got you in the end, as you knew he must." Harry's response: Nothing. Of course, he did feel drowsy, everything around him was spinning, as the Basilisk's poison spread through his body. Fawkes tears were still in the process of healing the wound. Again in CoS, Lucius Malfoy, page 338: "You'll meet the same sticky end as your parents one of these days, Harry Potter. They were meddlesome fools, too." Harry's response: again, nothing. Although Dobby took care of Lucius in a moment. :) Now on to PoA: Aunt Marge, page 25: "It's one of the basic rules of breeding, you see it all the time with dogs. If there's something wrong with the bitch, there'll be something wrong with the pup." Harry's response: Uncontrolled rage shatters Aunt Marge's wineglass. Aunt Marge again, page 28: "A no-account, good-for-nothing, lazy scrounger who--" Harry--"He was not." He was shaking all over, and had never felt so angry in his life." Uncle Vernon tries to send him to bed, but Aunt Marge continues: "No, Vernon. Go on, boy, go on. Proud of your parents, are you? They go and get themselves killed in a car crash (drunk, I expect)--" Harry jumps to his feet "They didn't die in a car crash!" Aunt Marge again: "They died in a car crash, you nasty little liar, and left you to be a burden on their decent, hardworking relatives! You are an insolent, ungrateful little--" And of course at this point Harry loses control and inflates Aunt Marge, then hightails it out of the house. Later on in PoA, Snape, page 361: Harry yells at Snape, defending Lupin, then Snape responds: "SILENCE! I WILL NOT BE SPOKEN TO LIKE THAT! Like father, like son, Potter! I have just saved your neck; you should be thanking me on bended knee! You would have been well served if he'd killed you! You'd have died like your father, too arrogant to believe you might be mistaken in Black--now get out of the way, or I will *make you.* GET OUT OF THE WAY, POTTER!" Harry made up his mind in a split second, and before Snape could move, "Expelliarmus's" him. Finally, on to GoF, page 646: Voldemort says "You stand, Harry Potter, upon the remains of my late father. A muggle and a fool. . . very like your dear mother. But they both had their uses, did they not? " Harry makes no response, but of course he is tied to a gravestone at the time. Interesting, though, Lily wasn't a muggle. Why is Voldemort calling her one? To me there's a big difference in "muggle" and "muggle born." Anyway, is there a pattern here or not? Two of the times Harry does absolutely nothing after an insult to his parents is in the graveyard and in the chamber with Riddle. Both times he is, shall we say, incapacitated? But the third, to Lucius Malfoy, he says nothing. You could say he didn't have the self esteem for it, I suppose, though he did at least scream at Voldemort the year before. Now in PoA he does something all three times, Aunt Marge getting the worst end of the deal, and Snape getting a triple Expelliarmus thanks to Ron and Hermione. However, it was the comment from Snape about Harry's father that was the straw to break the camel's back so to speak. It was in that second he made up his mind to disarm Snape. As did Ron and Hermione. Anyway, what am I getting at here? I'm not entirely sure, I was hoping you could tell me. :) Richelle ******************************************************************* "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring ******************************************************************* [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Sat Sep 21 01:19:14 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 01:19:14 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Harry's relationship (Was Re: Sirius Black-What a Guy!) In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020920161349.03234910@mailhost.jorsm.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44283 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Carol Bainbridge wrote: > Marina again: > >Harry knows Sirius is > >innocent, and Sirius knows that Harry is brave and decent, and that's > >pretty much it. At that time, I think Sirius couldn't love Harry as > >person in his own right, because Sirius didn't *know* Harry as a > >person in his own right. > > I disagree slightly with this. I think they both had a chance to see the > basic qualities of the other. Serius has certainly had a chance to watch > Harry, if not interact with him. Harry had a chance to learn why Serius > was behaving the way he was and learned a great deal about his loyalty and > depth of friendship with his parents. He also learned about his passionate > side and his softer side. Of course, all of this could be a mere front (I > doubt it, but it's possible). However, that in no way detracts from the > attraction the two had for each other and what they were able to see of one > another. I think what you see of someone under dangerous, emotionally > tense circumstances can tell you a great deal more about that person than > what you'd see under normal, every day circumstances. I suspect our disagreement is more a matter of degree than of kind. I certainly don't mean to say that Sirius and Harry's connection in PoA was based purely on their symbolic significance to each other -- human beings don't work that way. By the end of their Shrieking Shack encounter, they had an idea of each other's basic personality, and each had a good reason to believe that the other was a decent human being and well worth knowing. But the same could be said of Sirius and Ron, or Sirius and Hermione. Yet there was no instant emotional bond between Sirus and them. And why not? Because Ron and Hermione aren't James' kids. Because Sirius doesn't hold himself responsible for wrecking their childhoods. Because they both already have perfectly good fathers, and don't need a replacement. In short, because there's no external factors leading them to form a bond, the way there are with Sirius and Harry. If the Potters had had a brainy daughter named Hermione instead of an athletic son named Harry, Sirius would've bonded with her. :-) Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From kellybroughton at yahoo.com Sat Sep 21 01:26:44 2002 From: kellybroughton at yahoo.com (kelly broughton) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 18:26:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's DE past (was:Re:Snape's "mind set") In-Reply-To: <119.17ac3d74.2abc767d@aol.com> Message-ID: <20020921012644.15191.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44284 In a previous post, I say: > > > From what I can tell from canon, the only ppl who seem to be aware of > > Snape's history are: > > the Hogwarts faculty (and probrably not all of them) > > > Eloise replies: > It's not clear to me that 'any' of them know, aside from Dumbledore. > Unless you count Crouch/Moody. I say: Yes, it is possible that none of them know; I would be a bit surprised if not even McGonagall knew, however. > > kel: > > > the few Slytherins that we actually know of > > Eloise: > Again, I don't actually see evidence of that. Why would they know? I say: If most (possibly not all) of the students in Slytherin have DE parents, I would think that at least some of them would know Snape was a comrade of sorts, or at least know his name. (I am going by the scene in GoF, when Voldemort is naming names and having his little reunion. The ppl in that bunch seem to know each other quite well.) The fact that he does not mention Snape by name DOES give me pause, and could mean that they were unaware of Snape's involvement. Or maybe not. *shrug* > > kel: > > > Voldemort > > Eloise: > This is undisputable. Voldemort obviously knows all of them and even > though > it is commonly though that the DE's operate in cells and don't know the > identity of many other DE's, each individual must surely know some > others. > Lucius *may* know, or he may not. It's not clear. Snape undoubtedly > knows > that Lucius was a DE though and I have long speculated that his > favouritism > towards Draco may stem from his resulting cautious approach to Lucius. > Whether the latter does, or doesn't know, Snape has to assume that he > does. > kel: Which was pretty much what I stated above, to some degree. > > Harry and co. > > Sirius (I think- correct me if I'm wrong) > > Eloise: > I don't think Sirius knows until the end of GoF. > He warns Harry about Karkaroff; surely he'd warn him about Snape too, if > he > knew. I say: I must thank the several ppl who replied and informed that Sirius, in fact, did NOT know Snape was a DE. Thanks! > But I don't see that it *can* be common knowledge. I'm sure the parents > and > Governors wouldn't stand for an ex-DE on the staff, no matter how > reformed he > was. Fudge says he allowed Dumbledore to employ a werewolf, yet seems > shocked > that he'd employed a DE. Well, when you think of how many ex-DE's ARE Governors.... is Lucius the only one? Somehow I doubt it, although if there are more, they are probrably in the minority. Surely the rumour would > be > that Snape is into the Dark Arts because 'he was once a follower of You > Know > Who', if it were common knowledge? Ron says that everyone knows that > Lucius > was a big supporter of You Know Who. Yet he doesn't know about Snape. I > don't > see that his past *can* be known. > > Eloise > Which was exactly the point of my whole post. :) -kel __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Sat Sep 21 04:17:27 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 05:17:27 +0100 Subject: "hag-rid" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20020921023618.00974be0@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 44285 At 17:28 20/09/02 -0400, Eloise wrote: >I like silly etymology! Lest I have given the wrong impression in this regard, I do too; what really makes it fun is when the invented stuff makes perfect sense apart from being patently untrue (My personal favourite, which I spent several months evolving at university, was establishing a fake direct relationship between "piece" and "peace" - I wish I could remember how I did it!) :-) I do, however, draw a line between the purposefully silly and uninformed jumping to conclusions... (sorry, I think that sounded stronger than I mean) >But you're very close to the true etymology, (I *think* - glances nervously >at Richard). (Richard enters the room, whistles nonchatantly and looks around, with a look of blissful innocence on his face). Why, oh why, would you want to be nervous of li'l me? :-) I should warn you, however, that I've just finished watching Silence of the Lambs on DVD... Anyone for Chianti? ;-) >'Hagridden' according to my dictionaries has both the meanings 'ridden by >witches as a horse' and 'to be beset by nightmares or anxieties'. >But yes, the night-mare thing is just like one of those crossword clues I was >talking about! Quite. (Richard pauses as Eloise breathes a sigh of relief) :-) I've been through some of my own materials (which include a couple of reproduction 19th century English etymological dictionaries), and for what it's worth, there's a direct relationship (seriously) between "hag" and "hedge" (via Anglo-Saxon). There's an interesting correlation with "hex" as well... Off into the realms of fantasy now. No conclusions, just a few basic notions to mull over, some of which I found interesting, and some *extremely* amusing... Considering this all started off with someone suggesting "hagrid" came from Greek mythology, I've decided to put to use my limited, 90%-forgotten Greek (I was surprised how quickly it all came back to me when leafing through my yellowed basic dictionary just now for the first time in about ... err... 19 years!). Bear in mind that linguistic/semantic transformations have rules; a "k" becomes "g" (and vice-versa) very easily, as do "d" <-> "t" and Greek "z" -> English "d"; also remember that Greek is an inflected language (ie words change depending on grammatical/syntactical function). hagios (adj.): dedicated, sacred (regrettably, nowhere for the "r" to come from) hagnagos (adj.): naked (again, no "r") hagura (n.): anchor (bear in mind with the following that "h", especially as an initial, can appear or disappear over time in inter-language mutation; the soft "h" we know in modern English had no equivalent letter in Greek, and even Greek pronunciation of some of the following words assumed an initial h at some times): agnoeo (v.): be ignorant, not understand (whence "agnostic") agnos (adj.): innocent, pure (related to above) ago (v.): lead away; bring to safety agorazo (v.): redeem; acquire by paying a ransom agreo (v.): catch, esp. in hunting agrammatos (adj.): illiterate, unlearned (see "grammar" in there?) arios (adj.): belonging to fields, wild, fierce, raging agrupneo (v.): be watchful/vigilant akris (n.; plural: akrides): locust aigeros (adj.): belonging to a goat (the transliterated "ch" in the following is pronounced as in "Bach", not "chair".) chara (n.): joy, gladness chairo (v.): to rejoice, to be happy; also "chaire!": term of salutation Incidentally, chalepos (adj.): hard, rugged As for "rid" part (though some of the above words don't need it): ri(d)za (n.): root (with the same metaphorical meanings as English) reo (v.): flow (including lots of derived verbal forms ending on d or t, and transmutation of the "e" into an "i"). Anyone want to formulate some theories? :-) -- Richard, off to bed before saying any more silly things From kaityf at jorsm.com Sat Sep 21 03:40:55 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 22:40:55 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius Black-What a Guy! In-Reply-To: <186.e7616b7.2abd00fa@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020920220523.03241870@mailhost.jorsm.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44286 >Marcus said: > As to Sirius, I have a serious problem (no pun intended) with his > temper. Slashing up the Fat Lady was just pathetic. > Seeking to take the law into his own hands with > Petigrew is not the trait of somebody I want to get to know. Then Christie said: >I completely agree, for Carol's post, I think both these cases are evidense >to the passionate and "living on the edge" aspect of of Sirius personality. Perhaps we don't see "living on the edge" in the same way. To me, "living on the edge" means to take great risks, often in order to feel alive. I don't see this quality in Sirius at all. I see the passion, though. Christie again: >Why in the world would someone who wants to eventually clear his name, >violently slash a painting when you couldn't get what you want? Maybe I'm forgetting something in the book, but I don't recall that clearing his name was Sirius' original goal. II thought he was basically out to get Pettigrew. Also, I'm in the camp with those who aren't going to dwell on the slashing of the painting to illustrate a personality characteristic. For one thing, it was a plot necessity. Second, and more importantly, we weren't witnesses to the actual slashing, so we don't know what Sirius' state of mind was or exactly how he went about it. We only know of it second hand as it is described, when everyone believed an escaped convict was trying to get inside in order to kill Harry. Maybe the description would have been different had the assumption been different. Sure it would be the same event, but the words chosen to describe and event can often color the way we see the event, and the people involved in it. Christie once more: >This is not >something that a rational innocent person would do. Seems to me that Sirius >didn't exactly think before he slashed. Much the same way as a small child >acts w/o thinking the consequences through. I don't know. We really don't know what Sirius was doing when he slashed the painting. He may have been quite rational, trying to scare the Fat Lady, not hurt her. How else was he going to get inside if the Fat Lady wouldn't let him in? Go see Dumbledor to get the password? I think the scene was described as it was precisely for us to believe that the perpetrator was a desperate criminal trying to get his way. But to use it to attribute other characteristics like irrationality to Sirius is, IMO, more than is warranted. More Christie: >And I am sorry, but the last thing Sirius wants for Peter is justice. I don't think I explained myself very well. I was trying to link what I saw as a sense of justice in Sirius with Sirius' behavior toward Pettigrew. I didn't mean to say that there wasn't more to it than that. >His >motivation, and I can't say I don't see where he coming from here, is >revenge. Pure and simple revenge. Not only just revenge for himself, but >for Lily, James and Harry. Justice for Peter would be being brought up in >front of a trial and carted off to Azkaban. Depends on your idea of justice. Some people would say that justice is getting what you deserve. That does not necessarily mean that you go to court and get tried. We like to think that's justice, but it is quite possible for Sirius to believe that justice would be served if Pettigrew had to pay for his crime. Justice means balance. What is just is what is fair. What is fair for Pettigrew is, again, for him to pay for his crime. I don't think Black had much faith that he would be able to haul Peter into wizard court. Look at Snape's reaction to Black. Personal or not, he was still quite willing to see Sirius executed on the spot. If I were Black, I wouldn't think I'd be able to walk into the wizard equivalent of Scotland Yard and report on Pettigrew. I agree that Sirius wants revenge, but I also think that he wants to see justice done-- balance. Christie continued: >Again, Siriur didn't think >through his situation. By killing Peter, he would indeed be guilty of >murder, putting him right back at square one. What square one? He's already seen as guilty. His sole purpose in escaping from Azkaban (unless I'm misremembering, which is certainly possible) was to kill Pettigrew, to commit the crime he had been imprisoned for. He did not escape to catch Pettigrew and clear his name. It wasn't until later when he was talked out of killing Peter that he began to think he could clear his name and take Harry in. More Christie: >How could he care for Harry if >he was shipped right back to Azkaban for truly murdering Peter. But he didn't ask Harry to live with him until later. That had not been his original intention, so there was nothing to think through. Christie: >And keep in >mind that it is essential to have Peter alive so the whole story can work >itself out at a trial. Isn't that where the idea of clearing his Black's name came from? Isn't that part of how Sirius was talked into letting Peter live? Christie: >Another little aspect of Sirius' personality proving his passionate nature is >his treatment of Snape. I cannot believe in my heart that Sirius wanted to >kill Snape. He was merely playing a "school-boy" prank. Good ole Sirius >just was the short term benefits of his little joke. The long term >consequence being that Snape is dead. Fortunatly for Sirius, James is >pragmatic enough to rescue Snape before something dire happens. I have to admit I was really appalled by this prank. It's hard to make excuses for it. I don't believe either that the goal was to get Snape killed. But like many school pranks, it was short-sighted and potentially dangerous. (Like the ones college kids play with drugs and alcohol -- stupid) However, I see it more of an illustration of the depth of the animosity between them than a characteristic of Sirius. Christie: >But I think there are many who would agree >that Sirius is not without his faults. I would agree with that. He'd be a rather flat character if he were perfect! Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From uncmark at yahoo.com Sat Sep 21 05:03:03 2002 From: uncmark at yahoo.com (Mark D.) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 05:03:03 -0000 Subject: Ginny touched by Vmort - My niece agrees Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44287 I thought I had seen my nephew and niece fight about EVERYTHING. My Nephew (Who has a Slytherin banner on his wall) says Hermione will end up with (BARF) Draco and join him in the dark side. My niece is of the Hermione/Ron Harry/Ginny camp and also thinks (like me) that Ginny will grow into the perfect match for an Older Harry. I see Harry still fawning over Cho in Book 5, but her pushing him away because A) She liked Cedric and on some level blames Harry, and B) The thought of Voldemort terrifies her. I'd like to see Ginny grow a bit more along with the other supporting characters (Neville, Seamus, Colin Creevy) Do you think Colin might work with Hermione on a school paper? I could see him putting out a photo book of the Triwizard Cup with the proceeds going to the Griffindor Quidditch Team for newer brooms. Uncmark From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sat Sep 21 05:19:15 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 05:19:15 -0000 Subject: Sirius Black-What a Guy! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44288 "bugaloo37" kindly asked: >>>But how many of you out there are a "Sirius Fan"?<<< So I shyly raise my hand and smile gently... Gracious, I do not see how any woman can resist him. From the moment I read him as the real him, I adored him. He is just so driven, so focused, so dark and handsome, just so...***sigh***. I fell for Black ever since he said in the shrieking shack "I would of died before betraying James and Lily." (sorry slight paraphrase) As everyone has said, it is his passion that not only defines him but makes him so damn sexy. I think I like his character so much also because I respect passion and dedication so much in a best friend and especially in a man. True deep love for a person, and especially love from a passionate person, produces a need to defend them with your life because you cherish and want to protect thier life and any life they produce. Maybe I am reading Black too simply, but I see that as his motive and only motive. He truly loved James as a brother and thus Lily and thus Harry. Maybe it is just a school girl's crush, but he was my first favorite (favorite adult) and still is the top. Not that Barty Jr. is far behind. Seems I'm into odd brilliant men. Hey another point also. Black is sexy AND smart. Really good for the female reading public in my mind. And I know some say: Hey he pulled that prank on Snape......well he was a boy in school. Boys do stupid thing. And besides there is more to this story than we are told anyway. Snape did something more than just bother Black to cause it. Hey he slashed Fat Lady......well it's a painting. No real harm done. He was *driven* to protect Harry. Hey he has a temper......well he isn't perfect. Temper comes with passion. Passion rises and swells. He is the romantic hero as someone said before so well. And I love JKR for placing him there. Oh, and Black is also one of only four characters that say Voldemort's name. I find that greatly commendable. He is not impressed with Voldemort's "tricks". And Athna wrote in her response to "bugaloo37": >>>And I am hoping that in Book 5 that JK Rowling will let Sirius drop the convict-on-the-run look. Make it so he doesn't resemble his Wanted photo. Please Jo clean him up a little. Maybe some new robes, a shave and a haircut. Let him sleep on a nice warm bed and get a decent meal on a regular basis. We know that he's dead sexy, but having matted hair that is probably infested with fleas - well, um, he won't be bagging any babes looking like that! Give him a nice cover so he can actually Have A Life. And if she gave him a steady lover, all the better. ;-) <<<< Me again: Let's do hope Lupin can clean him up a bit, but not too much. I like Black being a bit...rough on the edges. Though I do think Black does need a new diet. Eating rats, as amusing as it is that HE would be eating rats, are just not sexy. So silly girl's crush maybe, but I do watch him with great interest much like Fleur watched Bill Weasley. Melody Who thought Sirius' name was derived from the clouds not the stars. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 21 00:55:43 2002 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 00:55:43 -0000 Subject: Sirius Black-What a Guy! In-Reply-To: <20020921003210.68281.qmail@web21104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44289 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., kelly broughton wrote: > > You have made some excellent points, and I do agree with you. However, > there is one thing that stops me from being a full-blooded Sirius fan... > and that is the Prank. The absolute lack of regret from Sirius really > gives me pause, bc that incident, to me, is no small matter. Granted, we > don't really know what all went down that night or why (Sirius says that > Snape "deserved it"(!!!)), but WHY? Because he was always skulking around, > trying to bust them all the time? I'm sorry, Sirius fans, but that is > unacceptable! > > In otherwords, if I was ever in a life threatening situation, and my > choice came down to Snape or Sirius, I would pick Snape in a heartbeat. > There is just something WRONG with a man who almost gets a fellow > classmate killed, just for a lark, and is unapologetic to this day. > > -kel > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > http://sbc.yahoo.com Exactly because we don't really know why Sirius did it to Snape, nothing stops me from being full-blooded Sirius fan. :o) I believe that Sirius had a reason to do what he did, which will be disclosed later. Not necessarily the reason,which will justify the famous Prank, but a reason, which will make us sympathize with Sirius. I believe that Severus somehow hurt Sirius or someone close to him badly enough and Sirius reacted without thinking things through. I may be very wrong, of course, but in any event I am withholding my judgment of Sirius' behaviour till I know more about the relationship between Marauders and Snape. I like Sirius a lot. Probably because I originally come from the country, where millions of innocent people were unjustly imprisoned and many of them not survived the prison, this character, who survived the unjust imprisonment and did not lost the ability to love, is very special to me. To tell you the truth, prank makes me like Sirius even more. Not because I like the consequences of this incident, but because I think that in spite of him saying the opposite, Sirius is sorry for what he did and is going to admit it later in the books. As for choosing between Sirius and Severus, can I have them both in the life threatening situation? Those two (and Harry) are my absolute favourites in the books. Hi, everybody! I was lurking long enough and finally decided to introduce myself to the list. I hope my writing is easy enough to understand, since English is my second language. Alla From aaoconnor2002 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 21 03:17:16 2002 From: aaoconnor2002 at yahoo.com (aaoconnor2002) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 03:17:16 -0000 Subject: Sirius Black-What a Guy! In-Reply-To: <20020921003210.68281.qmail@web21104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44290 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., > > --- bugaloo37 wrote: > > I have read post after post by people who like Snape and/or Draco. > > But how many of you out there are a "Sirius Fan"? I know a few of > > you pop up every once in a while-but there does not seem to be a very > > broad fan base for my favorite guy. > > > then kelly broughton wrote: > > there is one thing that stops me from being a full-blooded Sirius fan... > and that is the Prank. The absolute lack of regret from Sirius really > gives me pause, bc that incident, to me, is no small matter. Granted, we > don't really know what all went down that night or why (Sirius says that > Snape "deserved it"(!!!)), but WHY? Because he was always skulking around, > trying to bust them all the time? I'm sorry, Sirius fans, but that is > unacceptable! > > In otherwords, if I was ever in a life threatening situation, and my > choice came down to Snape or Sirius, I would pick Snape in a heartbeat. > There is just something WRONG with a man who almost gets a fellow > classmate killed, just for a lark, and is unapologetic to this day. > > -kel > Now me: I guess I would have to classify my self as a "Sirius fan" with reservations also, but my reservations are all related to the original prank itself and not Sirius' actions or lack of remorse after escaping from Azkaban. We have never seen Sirius at his best. In fact, IMHO, the Sirius we meet in PoA is completely unhinged. We all know everything he has been through in the preceding 12+ years. He has only one thought in mind and that is to kill Peter. That one thought has sustained him for almost a year. Just as he sees his opportunity arrive so does Snape, whose first action is to tell Sirius how happy he is going to be to turn him over to the dementors for a soulectomy. It doesn't surprise me that Sirius doesn't say, "by the way, I'm really sorry about that werewolf thing". Sirius may have regrets about the Prank, he may not, but the Shreiking Shack scene is the last place I would have expected him to express them if he did. By the time we see Sirius in GoF he is more rational. He has to know that the chances of Snape forgiving him are slim to none even if he does have regrets and apologizes. On the other hand, Snape's actions in the Shreiking Shack may have just reinforced Sirius' belief that he was justified years ago. Now to the Prank itself. I am really hoping that we get some more backstory on the Marauders and Snape and will have to withold my final opinion until all information is in. I do find it hard to believe that Sirius would send someone off to probable death just because they were trying to get him expelled from school, but I also wonder why Snape would have believed Sirius' information about Lupin and the Whomping Willow in the first place. Didn't Snape wonder why Sirius was being so forthcoming? Naive and stupid are not words I would use to describe Snape. My hope is that Sirius and Snape will have to work closely together sometime over the course of the last three books and will, at some point, develop a grudging respect for each other. It may be predictable and cliched but I would dearly love to see the process as it happened. Audrey (who has to be honest and admit that in a life or death situation she would pick Snape also. Sirius was too willing to give up and spend 12 years in prison. Give me a man of action even if I may not always agree with him!) __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > http://sbc.yahoo.com From gryffonqueen13 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 21 03:50:16 2002 From: gryffonqueen13 at yahoo.com (Mandy) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 03:50:16 -0000 Subject: Snape's job In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44291 bluesqueak wrote: > There is some canon support for the idea that Snape *doesn't* want > the DADA job. In CoS when The Trio and Hagrid are discussing > Lockhart, Hermione says: > > "Professor Dumbledore obviously thought he was the best man for the > job -" > > and Hagrid replies: > > "He was the *on'y* man for the job. ... An' I mean the *on'y* one. " > [CoS p. 88 UK paperback] > Besides, Snape is an ex-DE, and its been argued before on this board that he's eaten up by guilt for the things he's done as a DE. Can you imagine his feelings at having to teach DADA? Looking at trusting, innocent student faces, as you try and teach them to defend > themselves against curses you've really used on people... possibly > even on their parents or grandparents... While reading this, I was reminded of a theory I read in a fanfiction story somewhere, one that makes a lot of sense. It's been assumed by a great many people that Snape is a spy for Dumbledore. What this theory said, was that because of this it would have been dangerous for Snape to take the DADA position; how could he have explained to Voldemort about teaching the next generation how to defeat him? I phrased it badly, but that's the general gist. bluesqueak's point about Snape's guilt is a good one, but I'm not sure that would be his main reason. IMO, that would seem like a reason for him *to teach* DADA, so that if the students came across a DE, they would have a better chance of surviving. Just my two cents. l.j. "Yesterday is history. Tommorow is a mystery. Today is a gift... That's why we call it The Present." From millergal8 at aol.com Sat Sep 21 07:27:18 2002 From: millergal8 at aol.com (millergal8 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 03:27:18 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius Black-What a Guy! Message-ID: <128.17ed38a0.2abd7956@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44292 Okay, I didn't really do a bang up job describing my assessment of Black. Let me try this again. Carol writes: > Depends on your idea of justice. Some people would say that justice is > getting what you deserve. That does not necessarily mean that you go to > court and get tried. Me: Actually, as a soon to be law student, that last part is -exactly- how I define justice. It is how I would hope the rest of society would define justice also. The only other type of justice that comes to mind is vigilante justice, which is exactly what Black is endorsing here. I shudder to think what the world would be like if everyone took legal matters into their own hands. There is a reason why we have a defined court system today. Simply because someone has been wronged does not give that person the right to take the matter into their own hands. I am sorry, but if Black had killed Peter in that shack, he would have been no better than Peter, in my eyes. Carol again: > Maybe I'm forgetting something in the book, but I don't recall that > clearing his name was Sirius' original goal. II thought he was basically > out to get Pettigrew. Once again, me: On rereading the pertinent text, I do think that I was wrong about Sirius' original reasons for escaping. Pg. 363 of PoA, Black says, "And the caption said the boy (Ron) would be going back to Hogwarts...to where Harry was...". This statement leads me to the conclusion that Black escaped not to seek revenge on Peter, but to make sure Harry was protected. It wasn't until afterward that he decided the best way to do this would be to kill Peter. To me, this still points as evidence of Black's passionate nature. In my definition, having a passionate nature means one acts before one thinks the situation through in its entirety. Murder is very often a crime of passion. Had Black thought about this at anytime throughout that year, he would have realized that killing Peter was not the answer. By keeping him alive and bringing him to Dumbledore, Sirius is not only giving the Potters their justice, and protecting Harry, but also restoring his reputation. Now, I know most of you are thinking that how in the world would he have gotten Dumbledore to see his PoV. But lets review what we know about Dumbledore. 1. He persuades the previous headmaster to keep an expelled student on as assistant groundskeeper (actually, he may have been headmaster at that time...as its almost 2 am I am too lazy to fully research that, but its not critical to the case, the point is he believed in Hagrid). 2. He allows this groundskeeper to become a full fledged teacher after his name is cleared. 3. He not only lets a werewolf into the school as a student, but also hires that werewolf to teach there some years later. 4. He does not seem to care a bit that Hagrid is a half-giant. He refuses to accept his resignation, clearly a sign that he once again believes in Hagrid Now, given all this, DD does not come off as some hard case who would not be open to hearing Blacks story. All Black has to do is get word to DD that he has some news on the whole secret keeper business. If Black had given any sign of good will, I think Dumbledore would have been open minded enough to listen. He found Pig in the wild to deliver a message, so it is clearly possible that he could have gotten a message off to DD. Even if he felt he needed to have Peter before the went to DD, he still needn't kill Peter. Carol again: > Also, I'm in the camp with those who aren't going to > dwell on the slashing of the painting to illustrate a personality > characteristic. For one thing, it was a plot necessity. me: Well, showing us some of the characters personality traits is also a plot necessity. Who knows what is in store for Sirius in the future? His impulsiveness could very well be a major plot point in future books. The slashing scene simply kills two birds with one stone. It was meant to make us think Sirius was deranged, but it still does show Sirius doesn't think before acting. See the above argument for what Sirius should have done. Carol: > But he didn't ask Harry to live with him until later. That had not been > his original intention, so there was nothing to think through. Me: Based on my aforementioned position, Harry was the main reason for Black wanting to get to Pettigrew, so he obviously cares for Harry. He wants to take baby Harry from Hagrid, so it is clear that he takes his responsibility of being godfather seriously. By killing Peter he is throwing this chance right out the window. I don't think for a minute that after killing Peter he would have gotten up and walked out without looking back. He would have wanted to stay in contact with Harry. Allowing Peter to live would have given him the chance he wanted 12 years ago. Carol says: Christie: >>And keep in >>mind that it is essential to have Peter alive so the whole story can work >>itself out at a trial. >Isn't that where the idea of clearing his Black's name came from? Isn't >that part of how Sirius was talked into letting Peter live? Me: Actually, Sirius wasn't talked into letting Peter live. Black, decided that Harry was the one who deserved to make the ultimate decision. It was Harry who decided Peter would live. Black just respected this decision, I think he personally still wanted to kill Peter. He still threatens to kill Peter if he transforms. But that is all beside the point, Black shouldn't have even been in the position of needing to be "talked down". It is obvious that the benefits of keeping Peter alive outweigh those of killing him. You get one moment of satisfaction from killing him, but a lifetime of freedom by keeping him alive, not a hard choice to make in that light is it? And finally, Carol: > He'd be a rather flat character if he were perfect! Me: Too true! I also think this is a way for JKR to allow the readers to identify with her characters. We all have a little bit of Sirius in us! :) Christy, who finds she is quite tired and is now off to bed! Hurrah! From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com Sat Sep 21 07:56:30 2002 From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 00:56:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ginny touched by Vmort... Message-ID: <20020921075630.38502.qmail@web40305.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44293 From: "Mark D." Subject: Ginny touched by Vmort - My niece agrees "I thought I had seen my nephew and niece fight about EVERYTHING. My Nephew (Who has a Slytherin banner on his wall) says Hermione will end up with (BARF) Draco and join him in the dark side." Me: I still can't get over how many different types of SHIPS there are out there! It just proves how people interpret things very differently because of different backgrounds and cultures. Go figure! Uncmark: "My niece is of the Hermione/Ron Harry/Ginny camp and also thinks (like me) that Ginny will grow into the perfect match for an Older Harry. I see Harry still fawning over Cho in Book 5, but her pushing him away because A) She liked Cedric and on some level blames Harry, and B) The thought of Voldemort terrifies her." Moi: Me too! Except, I still like the CONNIVING CHICK'S REVENGE theory that Cho will become ever-so-evil . "I'd like to see Ginny grow a bit more along with the other supporting characters (Neville, Seamus, Colin Creevy)" Me: I think that Ginny is an Ace JKR is holding up her sleeve. She has kept Ginny hidden and very much in the background in the last two books for some reason -- Very JKR-ish of her, I might say. My theory is that this has something to do with her connection to Voldemort through Riddle's diary, and her life-debt to Harry. How those two things play out, I don't know. I've read in fan-fics that Ginny has nightmares similar to Harry's, in that they can see what is happening now, or what will happen when Voldy is feeling particularly murderous or angry. Maybe Ginny can speak parseltongue and has enough of Voldy in her that has changed her, like it has Harry. True, Harry gained his bits o'Voldy through a most powerful curse. But, Ginny was possessed by the memory of a bright, powerful and evil 16 yr. old for the better part of the year, at least from Halloween until the end of the school year. This might come into play in one of the next books. Now, with GInny's life debt...didn't Dumbledore say this is magic at its deepest and most powerful (in reference to Harry sparing Peter's life, hence Peter is indebted to Harry)? Doesn't this create a bond between the life-saver and the person saved? IMO, when a person is saved, they are compelled to help their "saver" when in their presence and their safety/life is being threatened. That works with Snape. In PS/SS, perhaps he was compelled to do the counter-curse to keep Harry from falling off his broom, rather than feeling duty to Harry because of Snape's debt to James. Maybe the person can't help but try to save their "saver's" life, and that's how the magic works. It sure explains Snape trying to save Harry even though he obviously hates him. He couldn't help himself. But this is just a pet theory of mine. No doubt it's been talked about before, I know, but let me pretend that I had at least one original thought.... Okay, I'll poke a hole in my own theory...when has Ginny ever shown any effort to save Harry when his life was in danger, after the events of COS? Canon doesn't tell us. Now, either she hasn't, and my "magically compelled to save their life" theory isn't any good, OR she was trying to save his life and her efforts have gone unnoticed. OR...maybe the person is compelled when all others who have a life-debt to that person are not present or their powers are incapacitated. We don't even know if she's had the chance to feel compelled to save Harry...Snape's always been there. It's late and I'm not making any more sense.... ~Lilac (who loves Ginny, always wanted red hair, and has grown to love her own freckles splashed across her nose and cheeks and dotted on her arms.) ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* "Tut, tut --- hardly any of you remembered that my favorite color is *lilac*. I say so in Year with the Yeti." --Gilderoy Lockhart, COS --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 21 09:02:51 2002 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 09:02:51 -0000 Subject: Snape, Neville and Herbology Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44294 I agree entirely that in real life there is absolutely *no* way I'd want anyone like Snape teaching anyone like Neville. But... Neville must be an incredibly frustrating student. His ability to destroy cauldrons (which no-one else in the class can) suggests that the raw power is there, but he doesn't want to use it. And, of course, Neville is good at Herbology. I don't know how far the comparison with Herbology/Biology and Potions/Chemistry can be stretched, but in the UK, if you planned to take up Biology as a career, then you would have to study Chemistry all the way up to the end of your school career. Quite simply - you need it to even *understand* higher level biology. The way Professor Sprout seems to display a detailed knowledge of which herbs are used in which potions, and at which point they have to be picked for the best results suggests that she does have at least a good theoretical knowledge of potions . Quite possibly in the WW, the potions expert and the herbology expert often work very closely with each other. So Snape has a student who hates his subject, but who *must* learn it. Snape can't *let* Neville hide in a corner and quietly ignore potions, because if he does he's going to ruin Neville's chance at a WW career he'd be good at. And this is a situation I don't think Snape is very good at dealing with (to put it mildly). But if this is the case, then I hate to think of Neville's face at the end of OoP when he discovers that he's got to study for a Potions NEWT with Snape [big, evil, grin]. Pip!Squeak (wanders off muttering must revise, must revise, must revise) From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Sat Sep 21 11:57:29 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 11:57:29 -0000 Subject: Sirius Black-What a Guy! In-Reply-To: <128.17ed38a0.2abd7956@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44295 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., millergal8 at a... wrote: > Okay, I didn't really do a bang up job describing my assessment of Black. > Let me try this again. > Carol writes: > > Depends on your idea of justice. Some people would say that justice is > > getting what you deserve. That does not necessarily mean that you go to > > court and get tried. > Me: > Actually, as a soon to be law student, that last part is -exactly- how I > define justice. It is how I would hope the rest of society would define > justice also. The only other type of justice that comes to mind is vigilante > justice, which is exactly what Black is endorsing here. Damn right, he is, and frankly, I don't see how it would be humanly possible for him to endorse anything else under the circumstances. The official WW justice system railroaded him into Azkaban for life without a trial. If he came out of that twelve years later still feeling the slightest bit of confidence in the courts' ability to dispense justice, he'd be a friggin' saint. That doesn't mean I think he's right to want to kill Peter, only that I think it would've been unrealistic for him to want to do anything else, until somebody else interfered and made him listen to reason. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From Ali at zymurgy.org Sat Sep 21 13:23:47 2002 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (alhewison) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 13:23:47 -0000 Subject: Sirius Black-What a Guy! In-Reply-To: <128.17ed38a0.2abd7956@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44296 > Carol writes re Sirius and taking matters into his own hands:- Depends on your idea of justice. Some people would say that justice is getting what you deserve. That does not necessarily mean that you go to court and get tried. Christy writes:- > Actually, as a soon to be law student, that last part is -exactly- how I define justice. It is how I would hope the rest of society would define justice also. The only other type of justice that comes to mind is vigilante justice, which is exactly what Black is endorsing here. I shudder to think what the world would be like if everyone took legal matters into their own hands. There is a reason why we have a defined court system today. Simply because someone has been wronged does not give that person the right to take the matter into their own hands. I am sorry, but if Black had killed Peter in that shack, he would have been no better than Peter, in my eyes. As a former law student (I've got a law degree), I agree with your concept of how justice should work. As a cynic, however, I don't think that due legal process always works that way. I would have to point out that Sirius has been badly let down by the WW justice system. I think he can be forgiven for thinking the only way forward is to take matters into his own hands. Would you really believe in WW justice if you had been locked up for 12 years for a crime that you did not commit? Sirius did not even have a trial - yet a few times JKR uses the word "convict" or "convicted". Are we supposed to understand that Sirius was tried- in-absentia or that he was flung into Azkaban without trial? Either way, Sirius has been unfairly imprisoned. I certainly believe in "Justice". Ideally this should be applied through the Legal System. But what about when the legal system fails? Certainly our English system is far from infallible and we have had several high-profile miscarriages of justice. Now, I still believe in the Court system; I would just like it to be propped up a bit and improved. But, I haven't been a victim of our justice system. Sirius has of the WW. I think it would take a very strong person (Nelson Mandela springs to mind) to be such a victim and still be a supporter of the same fallible system afterwards. As a theorist, I've always had very liberal beliefs on crime and punishment, but as soon as crimes have touched me personally I have felt quite differently. My objectivity went out of the window when my staff were "held up" in a bank raid, or when my husband's car was written off in a road-rage attack. I wanted to get those criminals and well... Of course, I don't believe in, and wouldn't advocate such natural justice. It was however, a genuine gut-reaction. Sirius has a genuine gut reaction to seeing the murderer of his friends, imflamed by his 12 year incarceration, and lack of obvious justice. If he had killed Pettigrew at this point, it would undoubtedly have been murder but would it have been understandable? IMO yes. Ali From rvotaw at i-55.com Sat Sep 21 14:10:18 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 09:10:18 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's DE past/ Sirius Black References: <20020921012644.15191.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00f901c26178$9f3c63a0$50a3cdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 44297 kel writes: > The fact that he does not mention Snape by name DOES give me pause, and > could mean that they were unaware of Snape's involvement. Or maybe not. > *shrug* Aren't the LeStranges the only DEs not present that Voldemort mentions by name? He didn't mention Karkaroff or even Crouch--by name at least. And there have *got* to be more in Azkaban than just the LeStranges that were really death eaters. Now, on to Sirius Black. I like him too, can't help it. Mainly because Harry likes him and trusts him. Harry needed someone (adult) to trust that he wouldn't feel stupid going to with something like a scar hurting. He trusts Dumbledore, but he holds him in a higher esteem. Sirius he can connect to his father, turn him into a father figure of sorts. Now, as far whether Sirius is an actual nice guy or not, well he certainly has a temper. That much is clear. But I think he may know something else about Snape's past. His preHogwarts past. OR Snape knows something about Sirius' preHogwarts past that he didn't want let out, thus in his young mind the only option was to kill him. But what, I have no idea. Richelle From lmccabe at sonic.net Sat Sep 21 15:12:46 2002 From: lmccabe at sonic.net (linda_mccabe) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 15:12:46 -0000 Subject: Ginny touched by Vmort...(Harry-Hermione Life Debts) In-Reply-To: <20020921075630.38502.qmail@web40305.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44298 Lilac wrote in part: > > > I think that Ginny is an Ace JKR is holding up her sleeve. She has kept Ginny hidden and very much in the background in the last two books for some reason -- Very JKR-ish of her, I might say. My theory is that this has something to do with her connection to Voldemort through Riddle's diary, and her life-debt to Harry. How those two things play out, I don't know. > > Now, with GInny's life debt...didn't Dumbledore say this is magic at its deepest and most powerful (in reference to Harry sparing Peter's life, hence Peter is indebted to Harry)? Doesn't this create a bond between the life-saver and the person saved? How about the life-debts that have been racked up between Harry and Hermione? Harry and Ron saved Hermione's life from the mountain troll. Then Hermione helped Snape to save Harry's life from Quirrell's attempt to knock him off his broomstick. Later Hermione helped save Harry with the Devil's Snare and the Potions riddle in the hidden dungeons. (She also saved Ron from the Devil's Snare - repaying her debt to him which was promptly rewarded by Ron saving both Harry and Hermione with his mastery of chess.) Harry then vanquished the Basilisk that had petrified Hermione. This of course aided by information Hermione had clutched in her stone-cold little hands. To me it seems like if this is Magic at its most deepest and most powerful that Harry and Hermione have developed strong magical bonds between them. I don't doubt that Ginny and Harry have a bond between them, but I think that the Harry-Hermione magical bonds are much stronger. (I also think they are stronger than the Ron- Hermione magical bonds.) It's just a thought. What if the reciprical and repeated saving of one another causes you to become irrevocably bound to them? Hmmm. Athena **** "You will have to figure out how to deal with Nadine Henderson across the street though," Arabella said. "Who's she?" asked Sirius. "A single mother in her thirties with a small daughter. She looks at any man who's not behind bars or mentally incompetent as a potential future husband. That includes married men, I'm afraid. She'll be drooling the moment she sees you." http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/L_C_McCabe/Sirius_Blacks_Secret_ Love/ Chapter 9 is now online. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Sep 21 15:30:04 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 15:30:04 -0000 Subject: Arabella Origin = Latin orabilis. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44299 ARABELLA f English, Italian Perhaps "yielding to pray" from Latin orabilis. http://www.behindthename.com/nmc/eng.html Sorry for the short post, but someone else posted a link to this website, although it was with regard to another name. As long as I was looking, I thought I would look up Arabella too. Most excellent for checking out name. Arabella is not a combination of the roots 'ara' and 'bella' but appears to be derived from the lating 'orabilis', or at least that's what this website says. bboy_mn From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Sat Sep 21 16:15:31 2002 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (Marcus ) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 16:15:31 -0000 Subject: Harry's reaction to insults about his parents In-Reply-To: <000a01c2610a$ac51bb80$3ba0cdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44300 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > Now on to PoA: > > Aunt Marge, page 25: > > "It's one of the basic rules of breeding, you see it all the time with dogs. If there's something wrong with the bitch, there'll be something wrong with the pup." > > Harry's response: Uncontrolled rage shatters Aunt Marge's wineglass. > Are you sure it was Harry who did it? Aunt Petunia was there, AND Harry didn't get punished at all. Aunt Marge just used the 'B' word describing Petunia's sister. Now Petunia and Lily did not get along, but to have somebody call her sister that! Interesting, no? > Later on in PoA, Snape, page 361: You forgot the chapter, "Snape's Grudge." The confrontation between Snape and Harry is some of Rowling's best writing, IMHO. > Anyway, is there a pattern here or not? > Richelle Sure. The subject of his parents is one of Harry's hot buttons. Not an uncontrollable one, but a hot button nonetheless. Marcus From eloiseherisson at aol.com Sat Sep 21 17:32:28 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 13:32:28 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's DE past (was:Re:Snape's "mind set") Message-ID: <61.263dab2d.2abe072c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44301 kel: [those who know Snape's DE history] > > > Snape's history are: > > > the Hogwarts faculty (and probrably not all of them) > > > > > Eloise replies: > > It's not clear to me that 'any' of them know, aside from Dumbledore. > > Unless you count Crouch/Moody. > > I say: Yes, it is possible that none of them know; I would be a bit > surprised if not even McGonagall knew, however. Eloise: Actually, I wouldn't. I think it's quite likely that she does, but Dumbledore doesn't seem to confide everything in her. > > > > kel: > > > > > the few Slytherins that we actually know of > > > > Eloise: > > Again, I don't actually see evidence of that. Why would they know? > > I say: If most (possibly not all) of the students in Slytherin have DE > parents, I would think that at least some of them would know Snape was a > comrade of sorts, or at least know his name. (I am going by the scene in > GoF, when Voldemort is naming names and having his little reunion. The ppl > in that bunch seem to know each other quite well.) Eloise: Do they know each other well? I remember someone once suggesting that the naming of names in that group was actually quite significant, in that it is only those he is displeased with who get named. They know their places in the circle, but I along with others think that secrecy really is the name of the game. The fewer that know each others identities, the better. There aren't that many of them (I'm not sure about this - what is the accepted number of Voldemort's followers?), yet one of the reasons for bearing the Dark Mark is to identify themselves to each other. And they habitually wear hoods and masks when in DE mode, as well. I also don't think that we can assume that Slytherin = Supporter of Lord Voldemort. In fact I rather think that that may be a trap that JKR *wants* us to fall into. And could the majority of them have DE parents? *If* there are 1000 students at Hogwarts and *if* the houses contain equal numbers (big 'if's, I know), there should be approximately 250 Slytherins (at the Quidditch Cup there are 200 supporters at that end of the pitch). Even if all these represent 2 children families (and single children seem to be in the majority at Hogwarts) and only 75% of them have DE parents, we're still left with about 75 DE parents and I don't think the circle was that big. We can in addition assume that there are DEs who don't have children at Hogwarts. No. I think that the DEs are Voldemort's inner circle. There may have been widespread support for him amongst Slytherin families, but I don't think we can assume that most of them were on the inside. A further point that I would make is that I never feel that Draco actually *does* get all the inside gen from his father. Any sensible DE will both protect his children from knowledge they do not need to have and not go blabbing secret stuff that might be leaked as playground gossip. How many children of spies, for instance, *know* that that is what their parent does for a living? I guess that Slytherins would assume that the head of their house was a likely candidate to be a sympathiser with Voldemort, except for the fact that he is employed by Dumbledore. Oh... that isn't a very good argument. So was Quirrell! kel: The fact that he does not mention Snape by name DOES give me pause, and > > could mean that they were unaware of Snape's involvement. Or maybe not. *shrug* Eloise: Or that JKR gagged him! I think he's enjoying being inscrutable! He's clearly not willing to name names there. He doesn't name Barty Crouch, either, who should qualify for some praise, shouldn't he, in contrast to the way the other DEs have let him down. Nor does he name the ones in Azkaban who will be honoured beyond their wildest dreams. Eloise again: > <>> But I don't see that it *can* be common knowledge. I'm sure the parents > > and > > Governors wouldn't stand for an ex-DE on the staff, no matter how > > reformed he > > was. Fudge says he allowed Dumbledore to employ a werewolf, yet seems > > shocked > > that he'd employed a DE. kel: > > Well, when you think of how many ex-DE's ARE Governors.... is Lucius the > only one? Somehow I doubt it, although if there are more, they are > probrably in the minority. Eloise: Good point. I had never thought of that - there may be more. But the impression I get is that the others are (were) all under Lucius' thumb anyway, given the way Dumbledore gets so many complaints about Lucius' threats when he has him removed. > > Surely the rumour would > > be > > that Snape is into the Dark Arts because 'he was once a follower of You > > Know > > Who', if it were common knowledge? Ron says that everyone knows that > > Lucius > > was a big supporter of You Know Who. Yet he doesn't know about Snape. I > > don't > > see that his past *can* be known. > kel: Which was exactly the point of my whole post. :) Eloise: Oh dear! I got a bit carried away and didn't make it clear I understood that. Sorry! Yes, I realise that, I wasn't disputing the main thrust of your post, just quibbling and saying that I think it's even more secret than you do! I don't really see how the majority of the Slytherins knowing ties in with secrecy. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eloiseherisson at aol.com Sat Sep 21 17:35:54 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 13:35:54 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Arabella Origin = Latin orabilis. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44302 In a message dated 21/09/2002 16:42:03 GMT Standard Time, bboy_mn at yahoo.com writes: > Sorry for the short post, but someone else posted a link to this > website, although it was with regard to another name. As long as I was > looking, I thought I would look up Arabella too. Most excellent for > checking out name. > > Arabella is not a combination of the roots 'ara' and 'bella' but > appears to be derived from the lating 'orabilis', or at least that's > what this website says. > > When I posted this suggested origin yesterday I didn't explore it as I couldn't see the relevance of its meaning. I was rather hoping that someone might, if they thought it valid. As Richard noted yesterday, etymology is a complex subject and Arabella is a particularly difficult name to derive. Just because a website says that orabilis is the origin, does not mean that it is so. Another website definition that was quoted recently proved to be completely unfounded. I think it is clear that the origin of the name is (as my dictionary says) obscure. There are at least three possible ways of deriving it, all of which have their own merit. It militates strongly against all my training to come down firmly in favour of one theory, unless it has a convincingly greater weight of evidence in its favour. I have to say that 'orabilis', although quite possible, seems to me the weakest candidate, given the historical weight in favour of the amabile -> Amabel -> Arabel -> Arabella route and the prevalence of 'bella', as in 'beautiful' as a suffix for girls' names. If it does mean 'easily entreated' and JKR is using it because of this, what do you think are the implications? Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From suzchiles at pobox.com Sat Sep 21 18:31:23 2002 From: suzchiles at pobox.com (Suzanne Chiles) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 11:31:23 -0700 Subject: Trelawney--Where did I hear that name before Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44303 For a long time, I have tried to remember where I had heard the name "Trelawney" before. Then, just a few days ago, while reading a post about Madame Trelawney, I remembered where I had first encountered the name. It's from an 100-year old romantic comedy play by Arthur Pinero entitled "Trelawney of the Wells." The main character is Rose Trelawney, an actress at a working-class theatre in Victorian London. She becomes engaged to a wealth aristocrat, but after trying to accustom herself to her fianc's lifestyle, she runs away back to the life of an actress. (Her fianc then becomes an actor in order to try and find her, they wind up cast in a play together, and fall in love all over again ... a happy ending). So, Trelawney was an actress. Does this go to prove that Trelawney is a fake, an actress playing the role of a seer? I find some validity in this, though I believe that while Trelawney believes she is faking it, she is an "accidental seer" who in spite of everything, actually manages to make some predictions come true. In fact, Trelawney rather reminds me of the Whoopi Goldberg character in "Ghost." She's faking it like crazy, but it turns out she really does have powers. Suzanne aka Zo Hooch From kaityf at jorsm.com Sat Sep 21 18:44:51 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 13:44:51 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius Black-What a Guy! In-Reply-To: <128.17ed38a0.2abd7956@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020921121625.0310be08@mailhost.jorsm.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44304 >Carol (me) writes: > > Depends on your idea of justice. Some people would say that justice is > > getting what you deserve. That does not necessarily mean that you go to > > court and get tried. >Christy: >Actually, as a soon to be law student, that last part is -exactly- how I >define justice. It is how I would hope the rest of society would define >justice also. That's actually confusing the concept of justice with the method for meting it out. The concept of justice means equity or getting what is due. The courts were developed as a way to deliver that equity or doling out what was due. So when I say that Sirius has a strong sense of justice, that's what I'm referring to. I am not referring to his appreciation of the court system. As other posters have pointed out, Black is not exactly in a position to feel kindly toward the WW justice *system*. Christy: >The only other type of justice that comes to mind is vigilante >justice, which is exactly what Black is endorsing here. Doesn't matter what kind it is. It IS justice. My original point was about the concept of justice. The fact that Black might be endorsing vigilante justice wouldn't change the fact that it is equity he might be after. Christy: >I shudder to think >what the world would be like if everyone took legal matters into their own >hands. There is a reason why we have a defined court system today. That's right. And I'm not disagreeing with that. It is a *system* for meting out justice. Again, Black has little reason to feel that the WW would provide the justice he might be looking for. Christy: >Simply >because someone has been wronged does not give that person the right to take >the matter into their own hands. I am sorry, but if Black had killed Peter >in that shack, he would have been no better than Peter, in my eyes. I'm not disagreeing with this -- at least not the first part. I never said that Black had a right to take matters into his own hands. I simply said that Black was out for justice, not purely vengence. However, had Black killed Peter in the Shrieking Shack, I still would have believed him to be a better person that Peter. No way would I see a sniveling coward like Peter, who betrayed one of his best friends, in the same way I see Black. I may have strongly disapproved of Sirius' behavior and felt him to be very wrong. But no better than Peter? No, I think a person's worth lies in more than a single act. >Carol again: > > Maybe I'm forgetting something in the book, but I don't recall that > > clearing his name was Sirius' original goal. II thought he was > basically > > out to get Pettigrew. >Once again, me: >On rereading the pertinent text, I do think that I was wrong about Sirius' >original reasons for escaping. Pg. 363 of PoA, Black says, "And the caption >said the boy (Ron) would be going back to Hogwarts...to where Harry was...". >This statement leads me to the conclusion that Black escaped not to seek >revenge on Peter, but to make sure Harry was protected. I stand corrected. However, it doesn't change my original point, which was that Black's goal in escaping was not to clear his name. Christy: >It wasn't until >afterward that he decided the best way to do this would be to kill Peter. >To me, this still points as evidence of Black's passionate nature. In my >definition, having a passionate nature means one acts before one thinks the >situation through in its entirety. Well, there we are. A disagreement on what a passionate nature means. To me, a passionate nature simply means that one feels things intensely in greater depth that most other people don't feel them. I don't think it indicates that one doesn't think before one acts. Christy: >Murder is very often a crime of passion. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this a legal issue? Was it not intended as a kind of justification for certain kinds of criminal acts -- like walking in on your wife in bed with another man and then killing them both? That's the kind of acting without thinking. I don't think that is a passionate *nature*. The crime of passion implies an act of impulse based on intense feelings -- at the moment. Christy: >Had Black thought about this at anytime throughout that year, he would have >realized that killing Peter was not the answer. Okay, now this isn't making sense to me. If murder is a crime of passion, it seems to me that it can be committed only on impulse (which I believe is the way US law sees it), then how can passion be the reason for Black's desire to kill Peter after a year of being out of prison? Would that not be premeditated murder? If it's premeditated, how can it be a crime of passion? Christy: >By keeping him alive and >bringing him to Dumbledore, Sirius is not only giving the Potters their >justice, and protecting Harry, but also restoring his reputation. Now, I >know most of you are thinking that how in the world would he have gotten >Dumbledore to see his PoV. We don't know what Sirius did during his year out of prison. We don't know his mind or his thinking. For all we know, he did think about it and still came to the conclusion that the best way to protect Harry and see justice served was to kill Peter. Perhaps if Sirius could have reached Dumbledore alone, there might have been a chance to accomplish something. However, there are a number of problems with this scenario. First, Sirius would have to get to Dumbledore. How is he going to do that undetected? Even as a dog, he can't go roaming the halls of Hogwarts looking for Dumbledore. I suppose he could have sent an owl to Dumbledore, but that would still be taking quite a risk. He can't be *sure* that Dumbledore will keep his presence a secret. Second, although Dumbledore is a fair-minded person, he is not all powerful. Even at the end of PoA, he can't do much for Black. He does help him to escape, but that's the most he can do. Of course, if Peter had be available, then things might have been different, but Peter escaped. Sirius didn't kill him; he got away, the very thing Sirius did not want to have happen. Third, the crime Sirius was imprisoned for is far more serious than the reason Hagrid was expelled. It is also more serious than letting a werewolf teach and a half-giant stay on at Hogwarts. The crime also affects more than Hogwarts. How much say does Dumbledore have in the entire WW? No, I think Sirius under the circumstances did weigh his options -- as he saw them -- and came to the only conclusion he thought would possible. Christy: >has some news on the whole secret keeper business. If Black had given any >sign of good will, I think Dumbledore would have been open minded enough to >listen. We can *think* something might be true, but when our life is as stake as is the life of our godchild, whom we felt we have already failed once, is that enough? I don't know that it would be for me. Maybe Black also thought this was possible. But again, maybe there was a reasonable doubt in his mind. As I said before, we aren't privy to his thought processes, so we don't know. Christy on the slashing of the painting: >The >slashing scene simply kills two birds with one stone. It was meant to make >us think Sirius was deranged, but it still does show Sirius doesn't think >before acting. I still disagree. We don't know what Sirius was thinking. He may have hated having to slash the picture but forced himself to do it in order to get to Scabbers. We just don't know since we weren't with Sirius when it happened. We are assuming that it was done on impulse. Or did I forget something else in the book? (a real possibility since it's been a while since I last read PoA). Christy: >Based on my aforementioned position, Harry was the main reason for Black >wanting to get to Pettigrew, so he obviously cares for Harry. He wants to >take baby Harry from Hagrid, so it is clear that he takes his responsibility >of being godfather seriously. By killing Peter he is throwing this chance >right out the window. Depends on which chance we're talking about. If we aren't talking about the chance to protect Harry and get justice for him and his parents, then no, I don't think he would have been throwing that chance out the window at all. I do agree that he takes his responsibility as godfather seriously (it's one of the reasons I like him so much). He certainly could choose to let Pettigrew go and take Harry home to have a happy home life, but then there would have been that part of him that wanted to keep Harry safe and make sure Pettigrew got what he deserved. I see Sirius as being in a very difficult position and having to make some very difficult decisions -- even if it looks like he is acting purely on impulse and out of emotions. Christy: >I don't think for a minute that after killing Peter he >would have gotten up and walked out without looking back. He would have >wanted to stay in contact with Harry. Allowing Peter to live would have >given him the chance he wanted 12 years ago. I agree. On the other hand, he would not be happy if Peter got away with his crime. There was absolutely no guarantee that Peter would be caught and found guilty. As it was, Peter did in fact escape. Even if he hadn't, what guarantee was there that he would be found guilty? Why should Sirius, wrongly thrown into prison, feel Pettigrew would get what he deserved? Christie: >Actually, Sirius wasn't talked into letting Peter live. Black, decided that >Harry was the one who deserved to make the ultimate decision. It was Harry >who decided Peter would live. Yes, but before that, Lupin convinced Black to wait until Harry learned the truth: "And Harry -- you owe Harry the truth, Sirius!" Then Black says, "All right, then...tell them whatever you like. But make it quick, Remus. I want to commit the murder I was imprisoned for...." Later, Lupin and Black are poised to kill Peter, but Harry jumps in front of Peter to protect him. He says he doesn't want them to kill him. It is at this point that Black says it's Harry's decision to make. Harry convinced both Black and Lupin to keep Peter alive. Christie: >Black just respected this decision, I think he >personally still wanted to kill Peter. He still threatens to kill Peter if >he transforms. But that is all beside the point, Black shouldn't have even >been in the position of needing to be "talked down". It is obvious that the >benefits of keeping Peter alive outweigh those of killing him. This is where we disagree. I don't see that Black has reason to believe justice will be served. Look at Snape. He was perfectly willing to let the dementors come in a suck out Black's soul without a word of explanation. It seems to me that Snape is the only one in this scene who is acting irrationally and without thinking. He is acting out of pure hatred for Sirius and for Lupin as well. Snape would not be a good witness and neither would Lupin, as we learn that no one trusts a werewolf. It would be Pettigrew's word against Black's. We also know the dementors aren't so easily controlled, as they nearly administered the kiss of death to Harry, as innocent a person as there could be. Also, the fact that Black *could* be convinced to let Peter live tells me that he is not acting out of pure emotion alone. No one could talk Snape into listening. >And finally, Carol: > > He'd be a rather flat character if he were perfect! >Me: >Too true! I also think this is a way for JKR to allow the readers to >identify with her characters. We all have a little bit of Sirius in us! :) I'd like to think I had some Sirius in me. He is both fun-loving and serious, intense, passionate, and very loyal. (I'd hate to think I have a drop of Snape in me though.) Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Sat Sep 21 19:21:32 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 20:21:32 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Arabella Origin = Latin orabilis. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20020921190741.00983860@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 44305 At 13:35 21/09/02 -0400, Eloise wrote: >I have to say that 'orabilis', although quite possible, seems to me the >weakest candidate, given the historical weight in favour of the amabile -> >Amabel -> Arabel -> Arabella route and the prevalence of 'bella', as in >'beautiful' as a suffix for girls' names. I went through a several hard-copy books in the library today (sorry, I didn't note titles), both general etymology and onomastikons, and they were pretty evenly divided on amabile/ara bella derivations (with a small penchant for the latter, much to my relief). :-) I must say that none of them went via orabilis. Incidentally, note the "perhaps" on the site Steve quoted (before anyone accuses me of shouting at Steve, yes, he *did* quote the word in his post). VERY curiously, a couple of books even went as far as deriving the separate name "Orabel" from "ara bella", NOT from "orabilis", which I find a bit strange. Some took "ara bella" from Greek rather than Latin, which is perfectly valid. A couple of observations, though: Greek "ara" started off as "prayer" (so, there *is* a possible connection with "orabilis after all!) and "altar" (i.e. "place of supplication") is only a derived meaning. Also, AFAIR, perhaps interestingly for the Potterverse, it did NOT pick up the further related meaning it did in Latin of "place of safety". I'd completely forgotten about the possible Greek connection, so I went a bit further. News to me at the time, and perhaps VERY interestingly for the Potterverse, is why the constellation of Ara is so named (it's all about the fight between the gods and the Titans (i.e. giants!); good summary (despite a few typos) here: http://home.earthlink.net/~kjblackford/ara.html Food for thought, or not? Am I reading *far* too much into JKR's Greek mythology connections, or not? From doffy99 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 21 19:30:15 2002 From: doffy99 at yahoo.com (doffy99) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 19:30:15 -0000 Subject: Ginny touched by Vmort...(Harry-Hermione Life Debts) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44306 linda_mccabe wrote: > How about the life-debts that have been racked up between Harry and > Hermione? Harry and Ron saved Hermione's life from the mountain > troll. Then Hermione helped Snape to save Harry's life from > Quirrell's attempt to knock him off his broomstick. > > Later Hermione helped save Harry with the Devil's Snare and the > Potions riddle in the hidden dungeons. (She also saved Ron from the > Devil's Snare - repaying her debt to him which was promptly rewarded > by Ron saving both Harry and Hermione with his mastery of chess.) > > Harry then vanquished the Basilisk that had petrified Hermione. > This of course aided by information Hermione had clutched in her > stone-cold little hands. > > To me it seems like if this is Magic at its most deepest and most > powerful that Harry and Hermione have developed strong magical bonds > between them. I don't doubt that Ginny and Harry have a bond > between them, but I think that the Harry-Hermione magical bonds are > much stronger. (I also think they are stronger than the Ron- > Hermione magical bonds.) > > It's just a thought. What if the reciprical and repeated saving of > one another causes you to become irrevocably bound to them? Hmmm. > > Athena > > **** > "You will have to figure out how to deal with Nadine Henderson > across the street though," Arabella said. > "Who's she?" asked Sirius. > "A single mother in her thirties with a small daughter. She looks > at any man who's not behind bars or mentally incompetent as a > potential future husband. That includes married men, I'm afraid. > She'll be drooling the moment she sees you." I've been reading the posts and I can't help myself but to post. All these disucussions of "Magical Bonds" raises OTHER questions in my mind. There are two ways that I see "Magical Bonds" working. 1) You must save a persons life while that person is in DIRECT mortal danger. This would mean that Ron saving H&H in the Chess game does not apply. Their lives were NOT in direct Mortal danger at the time. Only by playing the game did they place themselves in danger. Once they started the game, Ron's life was also in danger, so he was, basically, saving himself, not them. Same with Hermione and the potions. She figured out the puzzle to save herself. She just saved Harry in the process. This also brings into question of Harry Saving Ginny. He did NOT fight Tom Riddle to save Ginny. He fought and defeated Riddle because his(Harry's) own life was in mortal danger. If he had not killed the Basilisk and Riddle, he would have died right along side Ginny. Hermione did not Save H&R from the plant, she saved herself and thereby them in the process. WOuld this count?? Snape saving Harry at the Quidditch match WOULD apply. He had nothing to gain by saving harry's life, his (snape's) life was not in danger. 2) That saving another wizards life puts them in your "Debt." (For lack of a better word) Whether this is directly or indirectly wouldn't matter. This would mean that HH&R ALL have "magical bonds." Because at different times they have all saved the others in some way, shape or form. If the second applies, it means that HH&R will ALL come through these books on the side of good. I've seen a few posts and posters who beleive that Ron will turn evil. If the bonds are really that strong, this could NOT happen. This is why, I beleive and this is an opinion, the FIRST applies. Harry SPARED Pettigrew from certain death with NOTHING to gain. Sirius and Lupin were not going to attack Harry by trying to save Peter. Harry's life was in no danger. Peter was disamred and injured. This would also apply to James and Snape, because Jasmes was in direct mortal danger By NOT saving Snape. Therefore, putting Snape in James debt. It would also apply to Snape saving Harry at the Quidditch match. Going through them, these are the ONLY times, JKR has mentioned these "Magical Bonds." I beleive in order for this bond to occur, the "saver" must have NOTHING to gain from it. Just my opinion. Anyone else?? =Jeff From doffy99 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 21 19:37:58 2002 From: doffy99 at yahoo.com (doffy99) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 19:37:58 -0000 Subject: Arabella Origin = Latin orabilis. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44307 Just a quick little thing. In "35,000+ BABY NAMES" Written by Bruce Lansky and published by Meadowbrook Press. Published in 1995. The name: Arabella(Latin) beautiful Alter. See also Belle, Orabella. Just thought I'd add my two cents into the mix. :) -Jeff From pennylin at swbell.net Sat Sep 21 19:39:45 2002 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny Linsenmayer) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 14:39:45 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius Black-What a Guy! References: Message-ID: <04d601c261a6$a3d277a0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 44308 Hi -- Well, I can't resist an opportunity to weigh in on the defense of one of my favorite characters, now can I? :--) Unfortunately, I don't have alot of time to devote to this & so wanted to point out that there is a tremendous amount of material in the Archives on "Sirius and PTSD," and "the Prank." Notably, conversations on these topics were going strongly starting in early February and continuing on until around Valentine's Day. About Message 34603 seems to be the one that touched off everything, with the heaviest discussion on 2/9-2/12 it appears. There are also a number of threads in the archives relating to "justice" in the wizarding world (and the criminal law system in the WW). I agree with Marina and Ali's points -- Sirius has certainly been let down by the justice afforded him by the WW legal system. I also fall into the "Sirius is suffering from PTSD" camp, which goes a long way, IMO, toward explaining the Fat Lady slashing and the "attack" on Ron and the choking Harry incident in the Shrieking Shack. Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Sat Sep 21 20:10:26 2002 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 20:10:26 -0000 Subject: More on "hag-rid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44309 I found my copy of "Forgotten English" by Jeffery Kacrik, William Morrow and Company, INC, 1999. Here's his take on "hag-rid". "Into the twentieth century in Somerset, E.M. Wright wrote, "When horses break out into a sweat in the stable, they are said to be hag- rided." Herrick's short poem, "Another Charme for the Stables", further illustrates this: Hang up hooks and shears to scare Hence the hag that rides the mare, Till they be all over wet With the mire, and the sweat; This observ'd, the manes shall be of your horses, all knot free." E.M. Wright = Elizabeth M. Wright, _Rustic Speech and Folklore_ London: Oxford University Press, 1914 Herrick = Robert Herrick _The Poetical Works_ London: Oxford University Press 1921 So, to add to the ever-growing "hag-rid" pot, "hag-rid" could mean a sweaty horse, that is, a sweaty horse with no overt reason to sweat. Perhaps naming a child, "Hagrid", in the wizarding world is similar to naming a child "Prudence" or "Honor" in the real world? Which leaves me to wonder if there are any young wizards named Harry in honor of the "boy who would be spared"? Milz From annemehr at yahoo.com Sat Sep 21 19:20:55 2002 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (Anne Ehrenberger) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 12:20:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sirius' sense of justice (from Re: Sirius Black-What a Guy!) In-Reply-To: <1032601321.1174.38288.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20020921192055.37361.qmail@web20808.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44310 Millergal18 writes: > vigilante > justice, ... is exactly what Black is endorsing > here. I shudder to think > what the world would be like if everyone took legal > matters into their own > hands. There is a reason why we have a defined > court system today. Simply > because someone has been wronged does not give that > person the right to take > the matter into their own hands. I am sorry, but if > Black had killed Peter > in that shack, he would have been no better than > Peter, in my eyes. Now me: But a court system is not necessarily justice, either. Sirius has personal knowledge of that, since in GoF he reveals to H, H, and R that Crouch Sr. sent him to Azkaban without a trial (see the chapter where they visit Sirius in the cave outside of Hogsmeade). A defined and *trustworthy* justice system is obviously better than vigilante-ism, but it does not always exist. We don't really know that much about wizard justice yet, but there are some definite points against it: 1. The use of Azkaban and dementors is much too cruel for many offenses which seem to be punished there. 2. It is too easy to be sent to Az. without a trial (even Hagrid was sent there for a time in CoS when the ministry realized the chamber had been reopened). 3. This may be off the point, but even Buckbeak was railroaded. Sirius obviously has no faith whatever in achieving justice in the wizard court system. Annemehr __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Sep 21 21:08:00 2002 From: MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM (mitchbailey82) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 21:08:00 -0000 Subject: Sirius Black-What a Guy! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44311 Hi I've been reading the messages of the Sirius Black what a guy thread. Firstly - I'm a fan too (although I don't know if I like Lupin or Sirius better!) Secondly several messages have mentioned his temper - I see this as a problem too. However I don't think Snape will be the one to 'collide' with it. I've got a feeling that it's going to be Lupin or Harry or both. Firstly Lupin there is a lot of past there -I'm sure Lupin has never truly forgiven him about the prank I'm sure that he's still sore about it (not that I blame him) Haven't got the book with me but I'm sure there was something in POA that made me think this. Thirdly both suspected each other of being the spy this is bound to have an effect on their relationship. There is a lot of room for conflict between them, there are a lot of issues they need to sort out. Secondly Harry - sorry but (how can I put this) although Harry did think that Sirius was a murderer after POA they seem to have too easy a ride relationship wise, sooner or later they've got to come into some sort of argument with each other. Many reasons for this on Harry's side he's not used to having a guardian figure who actually wants to look out for him and 'but' in on his life, just the fact that's its new to Harry has to cause some tension. On Sirius's part got a feeling that he's going to want/compare/think of Harry being just like his Dad (James), Sirius compared Harry's flying to his Dads (OK this is only one place) but from the available description we have of James Harry's seems quite a bit different, Harry might look like his Dad but he's not his Dad (or something along those lines) Anyway time to go it's getting late. Michelle From i_am_erasmas at yahoo.ca Sat Sep 21 22:43:00 2002 From: i_am_erasmas at yahoo.ca (i_am_erasmas) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 22:43:00 -0000 Subject: Snape's DE past (was:Re:Snape's "mind set") In-Reply-To: <119.17ac3d74.2abc767d@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44312 eloiseherisson at a... wrote: > A great many people make the same asssumption, which in itself is not unreasonable, given the apparently public outing he gets in the Pensieve hearing. I think we pretty much have to assume that that particular hearing was closed, meaning not on public record with witnesses sworn to secrecy. Otherwise Snape's cover had already been blown before Voldemort's first fall. In the Pensieve chapter of GoF, Harry notices Rita Skeeter attends the session with Bagman and then Crouch Jr. It was Karkaroff's trial that Dumbledore repeats his testimony that Snape had been turned before Voldemort's downfall. Since Karkaroff's trial was more part of an investigation than a sentencing hearing, it would make sense that it would be closed to the press and the public. Dumbldore lays it out in the open: "'I have given evidence already on this matter," he said calmly. "Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater. However, he rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk. He is now no more a Death Eater than I am.'" I don't see how he could say that if that session had been a public hearing. Wouldn't they have just shut Karkaroff up and moved along? The session that Skeeter attended would almost have to be open, since Bagman was a wizarding household-name at the time, and since there was widespread interest in punishing the torturers of the Longbottoms. I suspect that this hearing was exceptional for allowing reporters and presumably other members of the public to attend. Erasmas From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Sat Sep 21 23:03:24 2002 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 23:03:24 -0000 Subject: Trelawney--Where did I hear that name before In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44313 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Suzanne Chiles" wrote: > For a long time, I have tried to remember where I had heard the name > "Trelawney" before. Then, just a few days ago, while reading a post about > Madame Trelawney, I remembered where I had first encountered the name. > > It's from an 100-year old romantic comedy play by Arthur Pinero entitled > "Trelawney of the Wells." Interesting - there's also Squire Trelawney from Stevenson's Treasure Island http://www.ukoln.ac.uk/services/treasure/book/chars/char7.htm - CMC From kaityf at jorsm.com Sun Sep 22 00:14:38 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 19:14:38 -0500 Subject: Sirius' Temper Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020921191433.02febf60@mailhost.jorsm.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44314 I'm probably in the minority here, but I don't see Sirius as having a temper "problem." Again, it may just be semantics with me, but I just don't see a problem. I'm not suggesting that Sirius doesn't get angry, just contending that the anger isn't inappropriate. How much evidence do we have of real anger? As far as I remember, we only know for sure about his behavior in the Shrieking Shack. I refuse to count the picture slashing incident because I did not get information about that first hand. I'm not arguing that he did not slash the picture, just his state of mind and emotion as he was doing it. I think we take Peeves' word for it that Black has a nasty temper. (He's the one who says so after the slashing of the painting.) But Peeves is hardly a trustworthy witness. As for the Shrieking Shack, Sirius is certainly angry there, but is that anger really that much out of control? It seems to me that his anger is quite focused and not out of control at all. In that scene I give my vote for lack of control to Snape. He lets his hatred of Black control his behavior and refuses to listen to anyone. He'd rather let a possibly innocent man die than listen to a word anyone has to say. I wouldn't go so far as to say Snape has an anger problem; he's generally too cool for that, but he still lets his emotions carry him away. Of course, I could be completely wrong about Sirius' temper, but I'm going to put final judgment on hold until I see some other evidence of his temper "problem." As Richelle Votaw pointed out, Harry caused Aunt Marge's wine glass to break when she speaks rudely of the Potters. The text doesn't actually say that Harry did it, but I think from the context, it's pretty clear that he did. There is other evidence of Harry's anger at insults directed at his parents as others have pointed out. But I don't think anyone is accusing Harry of having a temper problem. Of course, we see enough of Harry to know that he doesn't have a problem with anger, but does get angry at the insults thrown out about his parents. We have not seen enough of Sirius to know whether his anger is really a problem or not. Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From kaityf at jorsm.com Sun Sep 22 00:51:09 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 19:51:09 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Draco and Harry saga (was Re: Draco's need to be) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020921192535.0126d3c0@mailhost.jorsm.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44315 Bugaloo 37: > I consider Draco to exemplify the absolutely worst aspects of human > nature. He is a reflection, of course, of his father. He assesses > people on their heritage and financial status. Harry, of course, does > the exact opposite. This is shown by who has chosen to be his two > best friends: Ron Weasley (impoverished) and Hermione Granger > (a "mudblood"). Melody: > I think that is a bit harsh on Draco. While he is not one of my > favorite characters, to say the least, I don't think his motives for > hating Hermione and Ron are based solely on thier stations in life. > I always felt Draco was more jealous of Ron and Hermione. If Draco > had his way, he would be Harry's best friend and bask in the > deflected glory that is the Harry juggernaut. I have to agree with Bugaloo37. I don't deny that Draco is also jealous, but I don't think that's his motivation. Even if it were, it wouldn't excuse his obnoxious behavior. How one handles the less pleasurable emotions in life is, IMO, a way to measure one's character. Draco definitely comes up short here. Learning from his father, being jealous, whatever his reason, he is still an example of the worst aspects of human nature. Risti: >I think that the biggest crime Harry ever committed against Draco was >to bruise his pride. "I think I can tell the wrong sort for myself, >thank you." Picture Draco in the robe shop. Other then putting down >everyone else, he is generally nice towards Harry. I wouldn't classify his behavior as nice necessarily. It looked more to me like he was bragging and showing off. He's so good at Quidditch, he comes from a good wizard family, etc., etc. He barely gives Harry a chance to talk. How nice is that? His prejudices come out at Madam Malkin's shop as well. He clearly doesn't think much of Hagrid. Then he wants to know Harry's surname. He is not interested in befriending Harry as a new kid going to Hogwarts and I have to wonder how he would have reacted had he been standing next to Ron at that shop. I doubt that he would have been any different toward Ron then than he is later. Harry's friendship, IMO, has little to do with his ill-manners and prejudice. Risti again: >Then, when he finds out who Harry is, he offers friendship. I wouldn't call it friendship that he offered either. It's more in line with his bragging nature. He's showing off more. He's so important he knows all the "right" wizard families. I don't recall that he went around offering this advice to anyone else, so clearly he's motivated to do so for Harry because ... well, because he's Harry. What a feather in his cap it would be to have Harry Potter under his "tutelage." The great Malfoy helping out the great Harry Potter. Who comes out looking better? Harry already had a taste of Malfoy at Madam Malkin's shop and was already disinclined to be friends with him. After all, Malfoy insulted Hagrid, the first adult to show any concern for Harry. Why on earth would Harry want to befriend Malfoy or think Malfoy had any sense about which wizards were good and which not? Risti: >Draco has a pretty big >ego, and it got deflated rather quickly when Harry dismissed him >cooly and without another thought...for someone who basically >personifies everything he can't stand. That's part of Draco's problem. Personally, I don't care why someone's ego is so big he feels he can be rude to other people. It's the rudeness I pay attention to. I think it all comes back down to choice. Draco is not a baby anymore. He's out on his own and free to begin making choices of his own. So far, I see him making all the wrong ones, in terms of development of good character. Regardless of his upbringing, he is an individual who is ultimately responsible for his own behavior. Risti: > As the series progresses, he does get >a little eviler, and my chance of holding out for a reform do seem to >be getting slimmer, but hey, I'm an optimist! Anything is possible, but since Draco isn't making any effort at all to change his attitudes, my guess is that he's going to keep on becoming a bigger and bigger rat. The only chance I see for his redemption is if Voldemort ends up killing one or both of his parents and even then I think it's slim. I would hate to see JKR turn to a Dickensian ploy of a miraculous change of character overnight. Risti: >I've always wondered, what if, at that moment when Harry was standing >outside platform 9 3/4, he'd simply observed the Weasley's, and then >walked in on his own. Would Draco's have been the friendly face that >welcomed him into a compartment and showed him the ropes? Draco was >obviously eager for friendship, and would Harry, with no other >option, choose it if presented in that scenario? Anything is possible, but I think Harry would have to be pretty darn desperate to accept Draco as a friend. For one thing, I don't think Draco has shown a friendly face. For another, being the little Slytherin he is, he does only what is good for him. So his invitation to Harry would be selfishly motivated. Finally, and more importantly, Harry already didn't like Draco after his encounter at Madam Malkin's. Coincidentally, that's when I started to dislike the little weasel. Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From rvotaw at i-55.com Sun Sep 22 01:12:40 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 20:12:40 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry-Hermione Life Debts/ Insults to Harry's parents References: Message-ID: <006401c261d5$26116e00$619ccdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 44316 Jeff writes: > This also brings into question of Harry Saving Ginny. He did NOT > fight Tom Riddle to save Ginny. He fought and defeated Riddle because > his(Harry's) own life was in mortal danger. If he had not killed the > Basilisk and Riddle, he would have died right along side Ginny. > Hermione did not Save H&R from the plant, she saved herself and > thereby them in the process. WOuld this count?? I still think that Ginny has a life debt to Harry. If it hadn't been for Harry and Ron trying to save Ginny, they would never have entered the chamber, and Harry wouldn't have had to fight Riddle and the Basilisk. He could've done a much better job of saving himself by staying away with everyone else. But as the chamber opened Harry said: "I'm going down there." He couldn't not go, not now they had found the entrance to the Chamber, not if there was even the faintest, slimmest, wildest chance that Ginny might be alive. So if it hadn't been for Ginny, Harry'd never have been in a position to fight the Basilisk. Ginny's life debt isn't a result of the Basilisk, but of Harry going into the chamber in the first place. Jeff again: > This is why, I beleive and this is an opinion, the FIRST applies. > Harry SPARED Pettigrew from certain death with NOTHING to gain. > Sirius and Lupin were not going to attack Harry by trying to save I don't know. Moments before Sirius had his hand around Harry's throat, his fingers tightening, choking Harry. He didn't let go of Harry until Hermione's kicked him. Jeff continues: > Peter. Harry's life was in no danger. Peter was disamred and injured. > This would also apply to James and Snape, because Jasmes was in > direct mortal danger By NOT saving Snape. Therefore, putting Snape in > James debt. I may be reading this part wrong, so please help me figure it out. Why exactly does Snape have the life debt to James? My thoughts are that James would never have entered the passage that night if he weren't trying to save Snape. Richelle (me) wrote: > > Harry's response: Uncontrolled rage shatters Aunt Marge's wineglass. Marcus replied: > Are you sure it was Harry who did it? Aunt Petunia was there, AND > Harry didn't get punished at all. Aunt Marge just used the 'B' word > describing Petunia's sister. Now Petunia and Lily did not get along, > but to have somebody call her sister that! Interesting, no? Well, Harry certainly thought he did it. And Petunia does claim to hate her sister. So unless she's lying (which I doubt) she shouldn't mind anything Aunt Marge says about Lily. Harry's own reaction to the glass breaking was what I based my assumption on: (PoA Scholastic edition, page 26) But Aunt Petunia and Uncle Vernon were both looking at Harry suspiciously, so he decided he'd better skip dessert and escape from the table as soon as he could. Outside in the hall, he leaned against the wall, breathing deeply. It had been a long time since he'd lost control and made something explode. He couldnt' afford to let it happen again. Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From fyredriftwood at yahoo.com Sun Sep 22 01:09:38 2002 From: fyredriftwood at yahoo.com (Fyre Wood) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 01:09:38 -0000 Subject: The Draco and Harry saga (was Re: Draco's need to be) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44317 pacificlippert (aka Karie) wrote in reply to my original message: > > Actually, he hasn't missed a chance to humiliate > or demean Harry--he's certainly insulted him to > his face many times. He routinely recounts/re-enacts > the humiliating, hurtful, or dangerous thing that > Harry experiences, such as Harry's reaction to > the Dementors on the train and the Quidditch > field (pre-Patronus). And let's not forget > the "Potter Stinks" buttons. Draco lost no time > in making those, nor was he shy about handing them > out to the rest of the school, something that was > obviously (IMO) intended to hurt Harry. > Are you so certain that it was Draco whom made the buttons, or rather someone else made them and Draco happened to taunt Harry (or as I call.... flirt... I'm a Draco/Harry shipper. I couldn't resist) with the button. For all we know, the Hufflepuffs could have made them because of their anger over Diggory not being the official champion and then the rest of the school put them on. --Fyre Wood, who is attempting to defend her beloved Draco. From fyredriftwood at yahoo.com Sun Sep 22 01:28:55 2002 From: fyredriftwood at yahoo.com (Fyre Wood) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 01:28:55 -0000 Subject: Snape, Neville and Herbology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44318 BlueSqueak (aka Pip!Squeak) nicely posted: >>>>I agree entirely that in real life there is absolutely *no* way I'd > want anyone like Snape teaching anyone like Neville. > > But... > Neville must be an incredibly frustrating student. His ability to > destroy cauldrons (which no-one else in the class can) suggests that > the raw power is there, but he doesn't want to use it.<<<<<<<< Fyre Wood (ME!) replies: I agree with you on this statement. Neville is a tad... slow... for lack of better phrase when it comes down to doing potions. Though, it does seem odd that he destroys cauldron after cauldron after cauldron. Perhaps it is this fear he has of the mean, nasty potions master that makes Neville squirm, causing him stress, and then messing up horribly. -____________________ Bluesqueak continued: > So Snape has a student who hates his subject, but who *must* learn > it. Snape can't *let* Neville hide in a corner and quietly ignore > potions, because if he does he's going to ruin Neville's chance at a > WW career he'd be good at. And this is a situation I don't think > Snape is very good at dealing with (to put it mildly). > Fyre Wood (ME) Replies: Snape is a teacher that desires perfection. He knows that Neville isn't exactly the brightest crayon in the box when it comes to Potions--but maybe that is because Snape made him that way. Look at the way our beloved Snape treats Harry the first day of class. Maybe that freaked Nev out to the point of being scared that he screws everything up because of the pressure. Neville has done well in other subjects. Herbology is his best subject, and If I remember correctly, he did just fine in DADA with Professor Lupin. Maybe if there were more nuturing teachers like Lupin, then Neville would excell academically... or perhaps he's just an idiot savant, who just happens to have a knack for Herbology? ________________ BlueSqueak's last comment: > But if this is the case, then I hate to think of Neville's face at > the end of OoP when he discovers that he's got to study for a Potions > NEWT with Snape [big, evil, grin]. Ahh.... being the sadistic person I am, I find much pleasure in Neville's torture right there. Oh baby! --Fyre Wood, who reminds herself that it's only a book series... and not real life. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Sep 22 01:33:26 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 01:33:26 -0000 Subject: Arabella Origin = Latin orabilis. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44319 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., eloiseherisson at a... wrote: > In a message dated 21/09/2002 16:42:03 GMT Standard Time, > bboy_mn writes: > > ...EDITED... > > > > Arabella is not a combination of the roots 'ara' and 'bella' > > but appears to be derived from the lating 'orabilis', or at > > least that's what this website says. > > > > > Eloise said: > ...BNE...(Big Nasty Edit).... > Just because a website says that orabilis is the origin, does > not mean that it is so. > ...ABNE...(Another Big Nasty Edit).... > Eloise bboy_mn: This could probably go without saying but I never was one to keep my mouth shut. Just want to make sure that people understood that I wasn't implying that this solved the puzzle of the origin of Arabella. I was just trying to add more information to the discussion. Someone in the movie group used this website to derive the origins of Padma and Parvati, and it was from a source I hadn't seen before. Plus, I thought the site might be able to act as a resource for all of us, when we are searching out name meanings. So I thought it was worthwhile for that reason, if no other. I had seen another interpretation that derived 'beautiful alter' from the name, which does have some merit to it, but this was the first time I had ever seen the 'orabilis' connection, so I thought I would throw it into the pot of information we already had. It seems to have generated some very productive information. Eloise post and the people who responded to her brought out a lot of really good information. I think, possibly, some of the best so far. Again, another too short and somewhat pointless post, but I feel better for having said it. bboy_mn From rvotaw at i-55.com Sun Sep 22 02:04:51 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 21:04:51 -0500 Subject: Wand cores Message-ID: <008801c261dc$70704320$619ccdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 44320 I've been doing some speculating on possible wand cores. First, the wand cores we know of (please add if I've forgotten anything): Unicorn hair (Ron and Cedric) Veela hair (Fleur Delacour) Dragon heartstring (Viktor Krum) Phoenix feather (Harry and Tom Riddle/Voldemort) All references in this post are from Fantastic Beasts & Where to Find Them. I think this counts as canon. If not, consider this an apology in advance. :) Now, first of all, I don't expect that phoenixes are that easy to find, as they nest on mountain tops in Egypt, India, and China. I doubt there are that many pet phoenixes either. Unicorns are described as fleet of foot and hard to capture. While you wouldn't need to capture one to get hairs, you still need to get close. Very close. Witches would probably have better luck than wizards. Anyway, the unicorns are in forests in Northern Europe, how many can there be? Don't know. On to the dragon heartstring. Assuming a dragon must die for this, how many dragons are killed? Are all types of dragon heartstring used? And last, I doubt that many people end up with veela hair. Fleur, of course, was part veela, and it came from her grandmother. So my general assumption is that there must be other wand cores besides those four. But what to put in them? I've made a list of sorts, after going through FB&WTFT, of many possible sources of wand cores. None of the entries in FB&WTFT state that they are used in wands, which leads me to believe there are more than those four. Sorry if this has been done already, which I'm sure someone somewhere has. :) But anyway, here we go, with some characteristics of each beast: Augurey (Irish Phoenix) feather--FB&WTFT notes that the feathers repel ink so they aren't useful as quills. But in a wand? The augurey is intensly shy and sings at the approach of rain. Billywig sting (dried)--it's used in potions, doesn't say what kind, and believed to be a component of Fizzing Whizbees. After one is stung by a Billywig they suffer giddiness followed by levitation. Chimaera hair? Not sure if anyone could get close enough, it has a M.O.M. XXXXX rating. But has a lion's head, so may have a mane to get hair from. It is vicious and blood thirsty. Demiguise hair--long, fine, silvery hair used for weaving invisibility cloaks. Peaceful and herbivorous. Diriclaw (known to muggle as dodo) feathers--shares the Phoenix's ability to disappear and reappear at will. Fwooper feathers--an African bird with vivid plumage, its song can drive the listener insane. (Wonder if this was in Lockhart's wand? ;) Sorry, couldn't resist) Griffin feathers (assuming they do have feathers, with the front legs and head of an eagle, they should have some, even if not that long)--Fierce, but can be befriended. Hippogriff feathers--Must be cautious, maintain eye contact and bow, wait for approval before approaching. Jobberknoll feathers--these are used in truth serums and memory potions. It makes no sound until the moment of its death, at which point it emits a scream consisting of every sound it's ever heard--backwards. That's gotta mean something. No idea what, but something. Occamy feather--a serpentine body, aggressive to all who approach it, particularly in defense of its eggs. (Golden) Snidget feather--rare and extremely protected bird, fast flier that can change direction with uncanny speed and skill. It's feathers and eyes are highly prized. Snidget sanctuaries exist worldwide, wouldn't hurt to donate a feather or two. Originally used in the game of Quidditch, was replaced by the Golden Snitch. Winged Horse hair--four types are listed. Abraxan--palamino; Aethonan--chestnut; Granian--grey, very fast; Thestral--black, has the power of invisibility and considered unlucky by many wizards. So, what do you make of it? I, for one, want to see some more wand cores! Richelle ******************************************************************** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring ******************************************************************** [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Zarleycat at aol.com Sun Sep 22 02:33:21 2002 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 02:33:21 -0000 Subject: Sirius Black-What a Guy! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44321 -- In HPforGrownups at y..., "aaoconnor2002" wrote: > Audrey (who has to be honest and admit that in a life or death > situation she would pick Snape also. Sirius was too willing to give > up and spend 12 years in prison. Give me a man of action even if I > may not always agree with him!) Too willing to give up??? Fudge tells us that Black was taken away by "twenty members of the Magical Law Enforcement Squad." I suppose at that point Sirius could have struggled against all of them, tried to Stun all of them, Leg-locker Cursed all of them, but somehow, I think the odds were against him at that particular moment. No action was going to allow him to escape to try to get to someone in power who would sit down and listen to his side of the story. At that point, physical resistance was futile, and, if Sirius was thinking at all clearly, he might very well have figured that he'd get a chance to explain things at a trial. We all know what happened about that. Now, maybe he should have traipsed out of Azkaban the first chance he got, but...why? He knew the entire world thought him guilty, he blamed himself for the Potters' deaths, and he was in a high security cell with Dementors outside the door day and night, according to Fudge. Knowing how Dementors affect people, sucking all their happiness away, leaving behind everything wretched, maybe the best anyone can do is try to keep one's sanity. Which Sirius accomplished to a fair degree. And, once he had the motivation of knowing that Peter was near Harry at school, he flung himself into the North Sea and headed for Hogwarts. So, I respectfully disagree with the idea that Sirius is not a man of action. Marianne From jmmears at comcast.net Sun Sep 22 03:24:58 2002 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 03:24:58 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Temper In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020921191433.02febf60@mailhost.jorsm.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44322 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Carol Bainbridge wrote: > I'm probably in the minority here, but I don't see Sirius as having a > temper "problem." Again, it may just be semantics with me, but I just > don't see a problem. I'm not suggesting that Sirius doesn't get angry, > just contending that the anger isn't inappropriate. How much evidence do > we have of real anger? I agree, Carol. I think that anger is often confused with temper, but IMO a person can be exteremely angry and show it without necessarily being considered bad tempered. For me, it depends entirely upon the reason for the anger and no one in the Potterverse has more reason to be angry than Sirius Black. Carol said: . I refuse to count the picture > slashing incident because I did not get information about that first > hand. I'm not arguing that he did not slash the picture, just his state of > mind and emotion as he was doing it. I think we take Peeves' word for it > that Black has a nasty temper. (He's the one who says so after the > slashing of the painting.) But Peeves is hardly a trustworthy witness. > I must be the only one who thought that Sirius slashed the portrait of the Fat Lady, not so much in a fit of rage at being denied entry, but in a desperate attempt to get *through* the actual portrait in order to get to Griffyndor Tower. At the risk of being insensitive to paintings who can speak and otherwise interact, the portrait *is* just paint on canvas, not a sentient being. On my first reading of this part of PoA, I just believed it was a physical barrier as far as Sirius was concerned. > Of course, I could be completely wrong about Sirius' temper, but I'm going > to put final judgment on hold until I see some other evidence of his temper > "problem." Again, I agree. I can't recall any evidence of Sirius'"nasty temper" in GoF; although he does show great worry and anguish on Harry's behalf. If he did have an uncontrollable temper, I think that he certainly would have shown it towards Fudge in the hospital at Harry's bedside, when he refuses to believe Harry about Voldemorts return. Personally, I would have loved it if "Snuffles" had at least bitten him on the ankle . Jo Serenadust, confused about why anyone takes Peeves word for anything From xEmeraldxSnakex at aol.com Sat Sep 21 20:33:43 2002 From: xEmeraldxSnakex at aol.com (xEmeraldxSnakex at aol.com) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 16:33:43 EDT Subject: Ginny and Sirius Message-ID: <4e.117d8cd4.2abe31a7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44323 In a message dated 9/21/02 5:42:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Lilac writes: > Now, with GInny's life debt...didn't Dumbledore say this is magic at its > deepest and most powerful (in reference to Harry sparing Peter's life, > hence Peter is indebted to Harry)? Doesn't this create a bond between the > life-saver and the person saved? > IMO, when a person is saved, they are compelled to help their "saver" when > in their presence and their safety/life is being threatened. That works > with Snape. In PS/SS, perhaps he was compelled to do the counter-curse to > keep Harry from falling off his broom, rather than feeling duty to Harry > because of Snape's debt to James. Maybe the person can't help but try to > save their "saver's" life, and that's how the magic works. It sure > explains Snape trying to save Harry even though he obviously hates him. He > couldn't help himself. But this is just a pet theory of mine. No doubt > it's been talked about before, I know, but let me pretend that I had at > least one original thought.... Another hole in your theory would be "Why didn't Pettigrew try to save Harry during the GoF confrontation" Pettigrew was the one that tied him up even, wasn't he? Dumbledore was wrong about Voldemort not wanting someone indebted to Harry as his servant. But obviously he was wrong. What if this Life Debt is nothing more than Snape thinking: 'That (insert cuss) Potter saved my life. Dang him!' ? And about the whole Sirius discussion I like him and all but IMO he's never been quite right. For example when he was in Hogwarts he tried to kill Snape. That's going a bit far if you ask me. By then he was an animagus and he would have seen how dangerous Remus could be. That's no small prank. Does anyone know if Dumbledore knew about the prank? I'm not sure.... --angstconsumed From the.gremlin at verizon.net Sun Sep 22 03:19:10 2002 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (ats_fhc3) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 03:19:10 -0000 Subject: Holidays and Evil Characters Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44324 Since I have a habit of killing threads, I thought I'd start my own. And I promise I won't mention Snape. Dang it! Okay, I was just noticing that there are three holidays for Hogwarts: Christmas, summer, and Easter. Obviously, Christmas and summer are the longest, but if anything's going to happen, it happens during the Christmas or summer holidays. Nothin ever happened during the Easter holidays, except that Harry and Co. get a lot of homework. Any thoughts on this? Also, if anyone wanted to argue that Dumbledore is evil, I have some evidence that supports that, as well as Snape's still supoorting V- Mort: At Karkaroff's trial, when Dumbledore says, "He is now no more Death-Eater than I am." I think that's the quote, I don't have my books with me. Anyway, Dumbledore could be meaning something different, and the irony of that sentance could be that Snape is as much of a DE as DD is, because DD IS a DE, or some other sort of supporter of V-Mort. Now, take that and run with it. -Acire, who realized today that if she spent as much time on her homework as she did on Harry Potter, writing a three page paper on The Color Purple, Dead Poets Society, and M. Butterfly wouldn't be a problem. From rvotaw at i-55.com Sun Sep 22 03:51:07 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 22:51:07 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ginny and Sirius/ Evil Characters References: <4e.117d8cd4.2abe31a7@aol.com> Message-ID: <002601c261eb$48e0dc20$cc9dcdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 44325 --angstconsumed writes: > Another hole in your theory would be "Why didn't Pettigrew try to save Harry > during the GoF confrontation" Pettigrew was the one that tied him up even, > wasn't he? Yes, he did tie Harry up. However, there is the one little tidbit in there that I never quite understood. If Pettigrew is now a faithful servant of Voldemort's, this doesn't quite make sense to me. From GoF ch 34, page 659 "Wormtail approached Harry, who scrambled to find his feet, to support his own weight before the ropes were untied. Wormtail walked out of the circle to the place where Cedric's body lay and returned with Harry's wand, which he thrust roughly into Harry's hand without looking at him. Then Wormtail resumed his place in the circle of watching Death Eaters." The phrase stuck in there so matter of factly, "without looking at him" implies (I'm not saying it means this, just implies) that he was ashamed to be readying Harry for a duel with Voldemort. Knowing, of course, he didn't stand a chance. During the time Harry was tied to the stone, he wasn't in mortal danger. You can't take blood by force of a dead person. Although tying someone up to take their blood doesn't sound like "by force," but it's more by force than someone who's dead. Yet at the time when he returns Harry's wand, Wormtail won't look at him. I'm not sure what it means, if anything, but it's always stood out to me. -Acire writes: > Also, if anyone wanted to argue that Dumbledore is evil, I have some > evidence that supports that, as well as Snape's still supoorting V- > Mort: At Karkaroff's trial, when Dumbledore says, "He is now no more > Death-Eater than I am." I think that's the quote, I don't have my > books with me. Anyway, Dumbledore could be meaning something > different, and the irony of that sentance could be that Snape is as > much of a DE as DD is, because DD IS a DE, or some other sort of > supporter of V-Mort. Now, take that and run with it. I've never been much on the "Evil Dumbledore" theory. Until I realized that he offered to be the Potter's secret keeper and they turned him down. Yes, one could argue that he'd be too obvious. Still, everyone (including Dumbledore) thought Sirius was the secret keeper. But he wasn't, of course. If Dumbledore had been the secret keeper, everyone would've still thought it was Sirius Black. And if it were me, and I had no reason to doubt Dumbledore's loyalty, I'd have felt safer with the one person who Voldemort always feared as my secret keeper than someone like Peter Pettigrew. Who obviously was the wrong choice. Also, something Sirius Black said . . . I read it in someone's post earlier this week . . . only I can't remember what it was. (oops) And the Snape thing. Dumbledore is so completely convinced that he's all right, but I still have a few lingering doubts. Only time will tell . . . Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From carmenharms at yahoo.com Sun Sep 22 03:52:02 2002 From: carmenharms at yahoo.com (snazzzybird) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 03:52:02 -0000 Subject: Trelawney--Where did I hear that name before In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44326 "Suzanne Chiles" wrote: > > For a long time, I have tried to remember where I had heard the > name > > "Trelawney" before. Then, just a few days ago, while reading a > post about > > Madame Trelawney, I remembered where I had first encountered the > name. > > > > It's from an 100-year old romantic comedy play by Arthur Pinero > entitled > > "Trelawney of the Wells." > Then "Caius Marcius" wrote: > Interesting - there's also Squire Trelawney from Stevenson's > Treasure Island Now me: I found the name Trelawney very familiar when I first encountered the radiant Sibyll, because I'm a great fan of Daphne DuMaurier's writings. Characters named Trelawney feature in several of her books that take place on the Cornish Tin Coast. DuMaurier writes that surnames beginning with "Tre" (as well as "Pol" and "Pen") are plentiful in Cornwall -- or at least, they were in the times she wrote about. That made me wonder about Sibyll, too. Is she meant to be of Cornish descent? --Or is JKR a DuMaurier fan too? Just wondering, snazzzybird, who likes "The King's General" even better than "Rebecca" -- which is really saying something. From nplyon at yahoo.com Sun Sep 22 05:03:38 2002 From: nplyon at yahoo.com (Nicole L.) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 22:03:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sirius Black-What a Guy! In-Reply-To: <1032552795.3416.14494.m6@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20020922050338.67654.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44327 Thank you, thank you, thank you for this thread, bugaloo37! I love Sirius and in the months that I've been in this group I haven't seen him get nearly as much notice as some of the other characters so I am so glad for the chance to talk about him! Now, let's get to it! Marina said: > I don't know about that. I mean, I love Sirius, and > I think his > attempts to act as a father figure for Harry in GoF > are admirable and > touching, but at the time he makes his offer to > Harry in PoA, he and > Harry barely know each other. They've only just > met, and there hasn't > exactly been time for a heart-to-heart session. > Harry knows Sirius is > innocent, and Sirius knows that Harry is brave and > decent, and that's > pretty much it. At that time, I think Sirius > couldn't love Harry as > person in his own right, because Sirius didn't > *know* Harry as a > person in his own right. While I agree with you that Sirius couldn't love Harry as a person at this point because he doesn't know him, I do think that what Sirius felt for Harry was love in a different sense. If my best friend and her husband were murdered and I'd been kept from their child for 12 years and then suddenly had the chance to take that child in, I would do so out of love. I would love the child because they are the child of my best friends. I think this is how Sirius feels about Harry. I don't really see this as being very different from Sirius taking Harry in as a baby. He couldn't have loved Harry as a person then either. Either way, he would have taken Harry in because of his love for his friends and that love would extend to their child. > > So what motivated Sirius' offer? I think Sirius saw > Harry as his > chance at redemption. Sirius holds himself > responsible for Harry's > being an orphan, and for not being around to take > care of him the way > a proper godfather should. Now he has a chance to > make up for it, to > fix his past failure. And from Harry's point of > view -- he's > desperate for a father figure, desperate to get away > from the > Dursleys, and desperate for any connection to James. > So it's > perfectly understandable that he and Sirius > instantly glom on to each > other, but I think it was a connection based on each > person's > emotional needs and symbolic meaning to each other, > rather than a real > relationship. The relationship developed later. I don't think that Sirius was looking at Harry as his chance for redemption. In fact, I don't think Sirius wants to be redeemed at all. I think he holds himself accountable for the deaths of the Potters and I think that he feels he deserves whatever torture and punishment that he gets. I do think that he wanted to make it up to Harry for his not being there throughout Harry's life but I think that Sirius is more focused on Harry's needs than his own. To me, to say that Sirius wanted to redeem himself by taking care of Harry implies a certain selfishness on Sirius's part that I do not believe exists. Even though he is still very little acquainted with Harry in GoF, he hurries to Hogwart's at peril of his own life and freedom in order to be near Harry and to do all he can to protect Harry. I think this is truly unselfish of Sirius and shows that his main objective is in caring for the safety and well-being of Harry. Yes, Sirius is very impulsive at times. I see this as one of his character flaws. However, his impulsive nature is only truly evident when he is spurred by a threat to someone that he cares about. I see the same thing in Ron at times. When Draco says something really hateful to Harry or Hermione, Ron often reacts impulsively and without thought of his own safety. I think that both Sirius and Ron show a very admirable loyalty toward their friends. I'm not trying to say that their reactions are the best because impulsiveness can make a situation worse. What I'm trying to say is that it is the strength of their affection for their friends that causes them to react in an impulsive manner in order to protect said friends. As for Sirius's staying in prison, I totally agree with the idea that he stayed there for as long as he did because he felt that he deserved the punishment. I can only imagine the agony he must have felt over Lily and James's death. I'm sure he felt a lot of self-hatred and that's why when he was hauled away to Azkaban he didn't put up a fight. In his mind, he probably felt that he deserved an even worse punishment. After all, even though Azkaban is no picnic, Lily and James are dead and their son orphaned. One thing that bothers me about analysis of Sirius is that I feel that people often overlook his state of mind. He has just spent 12 years in a place that basically sounds like hell on Earth and the only reason he managed to escape was because he was bent on seeing justice done with respect to Pettigrew. When he appears in PoA, he has had no human contact for 12 years and has basically been psychologically tortured that whole time. A person is not going to be normal or of the most sound state of mind after something like that. To my mind, Sirius seems rather too unaffected by the whole ordeal but I suspect that this is because he is currently focusing all of his energy on protecting Harry. I think that if Sirius is still alive after the final confrontation (please Jo, don't kill Sirius! Please not Sirius!), he will face his years in Azkaban full on and I think that it will lead a breakdown for him. At some point I think he's going to be suffering some serious PTSD. I know I would be if I were in his shoes! ~Nicole, willing to defend Sirius to the death. :) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Sun Sep 22 05:07:05 2002 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 05:07:05 -0000 Subject: New Question and Answer thing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44328 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Fyre Wood" wrote: > Okay, I've read a few posts asking for a new question and answer > thing, so here we go =) > > 1.Do you think we'll ever go inside an Arithmacy class or perhaps > any other classes we have yet to see? > I think Harry will probably change what classes he takes next year with an eye to his surviving the next year, so hopefully we will... > 2. Do any of the pets in Harry Potter seem like they're not *really* > pets. > Trevor, and Mrs. Norris. > 3. Name you favorite new organization with letters (Ie: N.I.N.E= > Neville is not Evil) and try to come up with your own. > Favorite organization? Hmmm, I'm drawing a bit of a blank. How about H.I.S.S., the Hug Innocent Slytherins Society? > 4. Will Draco ever stop being oh so evil? > Well, I think things will come to a head either when he is due to become a DE or shortly afterwards. I'd look for him to do a Snape on us, likely with a bit of input from Snape himself. > 5. Predictions on the final chapter of book 7? > Gazing into the crystal ball: I see a black shape flitting in the distance, growing ever closer. The Grim. I see it touching on people here and there. Hagrid, poor man, a Weasley, a Malfoy, and a Dursley. I see betrayal by a lion and redemption for a snake, and much change and upheaval coming. I see Cho Chang and Susan Bones, though their involvement is not quite clar, and ... Voldemort's wand turning into a rubber chicken? But the ball is clouding, and the vision is becoming uncertain. I can see no more this night. Arcum is handed a piece of paper from Professor Trelawney with an "A" on it and walks away from his Divination final smiling... (Yes, this is events up to and including the final chapter, but I couldn't resist...) > 6. Ron and Hermione--Will they hook up? > This could go either way, really. It's really to early to say, and could easily be made moot if Ron dies... > 7. What's the deal with Wizard money? Does it collect interest? I'd assume so, otherwise why would it be in a bank? > Why is it so darn big and heavy? Tradition. > Why not paper money instead of coins? > With paper money it can lose value easier then coins, since the coins have intrinsic worth in their materials even if something happens to devalue the money. Paper is also likely easier to forge magically. Gold is historically very difficult to create magically, and I'd imagine the other metals used are likely also somewhat difficult to reproduce. > 8. If you could play any Quidditch possition, what would it be? > Why? Which team? > I likely wouldn't play Quidditch, actually, though I might take to flying, and almost certainly would get in trouble for enchanting computer equipment... > 9. Name a character who is going to have the most change in his/her > characterization between books 5-7, and explain what changes might > happen. > Neville and Draco I think are most radically due to change, though everyone will be growing and maturing through the next few books. I also think Cho Chang will become more multifaceted of a character, and that we'll find out more about the families that Voldemort killed, and the students who survied them... > 10. What new flavors of Bertie Bott's beans would you like to eat? > Pickle, garlic, clove, ginger, salt & vinegar, apricot, plum, and tangerine. Not all at once, naturally. > > I'll answer this later.. it's more of a random thing. Perhaps > someone will *actually* reply to a post I make without slamming me > for liking Draco Malfoy and saying that Neville is infact NOT evil. =) > No problem with that. BTW, is anyone keeping track anywhere of whos been accused of being ever-so-evil so far? --Arcum From doffy99 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 22 05:35:38 2002 From: doffy99 at yahoo.com (doffy99) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 05:35:38 -0000 Subject: Harry-Hermione Life Debts/ Insults to Harry's parents In-Reply-To: <006401c261d5$26116e00$619ccdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44329 Richelle Votaw wrote: > Jeff writes: > > > This also brings into question of Harry Saving Ginny. He did NOT > > fight Tom Riddle to save Ginny. He fought and defeated Riddle because > > his(Harry's) own life was in mortal danger. If he had not killed the > > Basilisk and Riddle, he would have died right along side Ginny. > > Hermione did not Save H&R from the plant, she saved herself and > > thereby them in the process. WOuld this count?? Richelle Votaw wrote: > I still think that Ginny has a life debt to Harry. If it hadn't been for > Harry and Ron trying to save Ginny, they would never have entered the > chamber, and Harry wouldn't have had to fight Riddle and the Basilisk. He > could've done a much better job of saving himself by staying away with > everyone else. But as the chamber opened Harry said: > > "I'm going down there." He couldn't not go, not now they had found the > entrance to the Chamber, not if there was even the faintest, slimmest, > wildest chance that Ginny might be alive. > > So if it hadn't been for Ginny, Harry'd never have been in a position to > fight the Basilisk. Ginny's life debt isn't a result of the Basilisk, but > of Harry going into the chamber in the first place. Me Now: Okay, I'll give on this one. :) Richelle Votaw wrote: > I may be reading this part wrong, so please help me figure it out. Why > exactly does Snape have the life debt to James? My thoughts are that James > would never have entered the passage that night if he weren't trying to save > Snape. me NOW: Snape has a debt to James because James pulled him out of the tunnel beneath the whomping willow when there was a full grown Werewolf in the shrieking shack at the end of that tunnel. If James had NOT gone after Snape,(Granted, it was Sirius' fault Snape was there in the first place.) Snape would have died at the hands of the Lupin Werewolf. You're right, James wouldn't have gone down there if not to save Snape. That's what I was trying to say. James had NOTHING to gain by saving Snape. James' life was in no danger. James could easily have let Snape continue and allowed Snape to die. It would have had very little effect on James directly. He would have lost one, possibly two of his best friends to either expulsion or Azkaban, but James was in no danger. I think, and it's just an opinion, not based on canon, but more what isn't written in canon. Nothing is ever said of these "Life Debts" between Harry, Ron and Hermione. Nothing is ever said of the debt between Harry and Ginny. Nothing is ever said of the number of times that Harry has been saved by others in one way or another. The only times it's mentioned in Canon is with James/Sirius and Harry/Pettigrew. This is what makes me think that there has to be some NOBILITY to the act. James was not trying to save himself when he saved Snape. Harry was not trying to save himself when he saved Wormtail. And, in the case mentioned above, Harry had nothing to gain by going into the Chamber after Ginny. An afterthought, It strikes me odd that James and Harry have this connection. If James had not saved Snape, Sirius and Lupin would have been expelled, possibly imprisoned, for their prank. If Harry had not intervened on the part of Pettigrew, again, Sirius and Lupin would have faced Azkaban for the murder of Peter Pettigrew. My feeling is, from his behavior in GOF, that Fudge would never have beleived the story and would have brought both Sirius and Lupin up on charges, thrown them in Azkaban and thrown away the key. Father and son ended up saving, in some way, the same two people and put someone, an enemy in both cases, in their debt. Is it just me?? -Jeff From pacific_k at hotmail.com Sun Sep 22 04:12:21 2002 From: pacific_k at hotmail.com (pacificlippert) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 04:12:21 -0000 Subject: The Draco and Harry saga (was Re: Draco's need to be) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44330 --Fyre Wood, who is attempting to defend her beloved Draco, wrote: > Are you so certain that it was Draco whom made the buttons, or rather > someone else made them and Draco happened to taunt Harry (or as I > call.... flirt... I'm a Draco/Harry shipper. I couldn't resist) with > the button. > > For all we know, the Hufflepuffs could have made them because of > their anger over Diggory not being the official champion and then the > rest of the school put them on. You're right, I just assumed Draco made/had a hand in making the buttons...however, Draco defenders routinely tell us he's quite clever (; On the other hand, the buttons are seen _first_ (page 261, UK p/b edition)on the Slytherins, and Draco calls attention to them, as well as demonstrating their alternate legend. --"Like them, Potter?" said Malfoy loudly as Harry approached. "And this isn't all they do--look!"-- Shortly thereafter, Draco says "I've got loads." The buttons don't show up on the other students until later in the book (p. 279, UK p/b is the first reference to them being worn by other students). The other students could have, and probably were, wearing the buttons prior to that Hogsmeade trip, but I think Harry would have noticed if the Hufflepuffs had been wearing them before Slytherins, as Herbology (with the Hufflepuffs)is a morning class, and Potions is after lunch. Draco continues to disparage Harry _personally_ (p. 340 UK p/b): "Draco Malfoy, of course, was still quoting Rita Skeeter's article at him." Draco continues to pass information about Harry to Rita Skeeter. The three of them see Draco "holding his hand up to his mouth, and speaking into it" while Crabbe and Goyle keep watch(p. 529 UK p/b). That interview is part of the "Harry is disturbed" article. Karie From eloiseherisson at aol.com Sun Sep 22 09:47:38 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 05:47:38 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Trelawney--Where did I hear that name before Message-ID: <12d.17bf2acc.2abeebba@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44331 In a message dated 22/09/2002 04:53:06 GMT Standard Time, carmenharms at yahoo.com writes: > That made me wonder about Sibyll, too. Is she meant to be of Cornish > descent? --Or is JKR a DuMaurier fan too? > I would suspect both. Trelawney is, as you imply, a very characteristic Cornish name. I think it goes without saying that anyone familiar with British names would automatically assume that someone of that name was at the least of Cornish descent, if not Cornish, just as you would presume that McGonagall was at the least of Scottish descent. According to the Cornish Baby Names site, it is a boy's name, meaning 'from the church village'. I confess that doesn't make much sense to me, as it's rare to find a village without a church. But I'm really kicking myself! I'd been thinking about Sybil too, and looking up about Trelawney of the Wells, but lacking Suzanne's clear sight to make the obvious 'actress' connection! Talk about not being able to see the wood for the trees! Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ronale7 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 22 11:39:29 2002 From: ronale7 at yahoo.com (ronale7) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 11:39:29 -0000 Subject: Meaning of Arabella Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44332 I'm ashamed of delurking about the subject of Arabella's name, but I have a resource apparently no one else has. It's a 60-year old pamphlet (yes, I typed that right--it's copyright 1942) put out by the Ethyl Corporation and titled "What's in a Name?" According to this pamphlet, the name Arabella has two derivations. First, there's the Latin one: fair altar; sweet refuge. (Should we count that as one or two? I'm treating it as one.) And then it gives a source I haven't seen in the posts: the Teutonic one which means Eagle heroine. This derivation leaves me confused. Can anyone add to this Teutonic bit? --Ronale7 From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 22 12:31:15 2002 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 12:31:15 -0000 Subject: James/Harry WAS Harry-Hermione Life Debts/ Insults to Harry's parents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44333 I think Yahoomort has swallowed my last attempt to reply to this, so here it goes again. Apologies if you get two copies on the list. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "doffy99" wrote: Jeff wrote: > An afterthought, It strikes me odd that James and Harry have this > connection. > If James had not saved Snape, Sirius and Lupin would have been > expelled, possibly imprisoned, for their prank. > If Harry had not intervened on the part of Pettigrew, again, Sirius > and Lupin would have faced Azkaban for the murder of Peter > Pettigrew. > My feeling is, from his behavior in GOF, that Fudge would never > have beleived the story and would have brought both Sirius and Lupin > up on charges, thrown them in Azkaban and thrown away the key. > Father and son ended up saving, in some way, the same two people > and put someone, an enemy in both cases, in their debt. Is it just > me?? > > -Jeff I think Dumbledore also points out that there's a connection in PoA Ch. 22 pp. 311-312 UK Hardback: "I knew your father very well...He would have saved Pettigrew too ...your father is alive in you, Harry..." Part of Harry's voyage of self-discovery in the first four books has been finding out how much like his father he is. He's inherited James' skill at Quiddich, his looks, his disregard for rules, his arrogance. Admittedly the Dursley's did a darn good job of knocking most of the arrogance out of Harry (*not* that doing Harry any good was their intention, I'm sure), but there is still a tendency for Harry to assume he's right, everyone else must be wrong. If Harry Potter wants to visit Hogsmeade, then all the grownups trying to stop him must be just being unfair. The problem is, that James Potter's character is effectively what got himself, Lily, and very nearly Harry killed. If James had been less certain that his own judgement must be the right one, more willing to accept Dumbledore's assessment that James couldn't even trust his closest friends, then Harry might still have parents. So Harry mirroring James is on the one hand good. In many ways James Potter was an admirable person. But on the other hand, it's scary. As Snape has pointed out on more than one occasion, if Harry turns out exactly *like* James, then there is a real danger that Harry will get himself killed by making exactly the same sort of mistake *as* James. Leaving the last word to Dumbledore again: "...you do look *extraordinarily* like James. Except for your eyes ... you have your mother's eyes." [PoA Ch. 22 pp. 311-312 UK Hardback ] Perhaps what will save Harry is that he's Lily's son as well. Pip!Squeak From eloiseherisson at aol.com Sun Sep 22 14:42:05 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 10:42:05 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Meaning of Arabella Message-ID: <167.144a75d5.2abf30bd@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44334 In a message dated 22/09/2002 12:41:21 GMT Standard Time, ronale7 at yahoo.com writes: > According to this pamphlet, the name Arabella has two derivations. > First, there's the Latin one: fair altar; sweet refuge. (Should we > count that as one or two? I'm treating it as one.) And then it > gives a source I haven't seen in the posts: the Teutonic one which > means Eagle heroine. > > This derivation leaves me confused. Can anyone add to this Teutonic > bit? > Fair altar, sweet refuge are pretty much the same thing, it just depends how literally or how figuratively we translate the Latin, which has both literal and figurative meanings. But, oh dear....am I going to have to eat my words? I referred yesterday to a website derivation which was unfounded - and the Teutonic, 'Eagle Heroine' one was just that. The reason I concluded that it was unfounded on the following grounds (quoting my original post on the subject): >Catlady >>Eloise<< However, the site also says that Annabel is *Hebrew*. >> > >>Maybe that site understands "Annabelle" as I did before I read your >>information: as a fancied-up form of "Anna", which does come from the >>Hebrew name Hannah, which IIRC means 'grace'. A portmanteau of >>Hebrew-derived "Anna" and Latin-derived "Bella". > >Eloise: >Which would be quite logical, only they give "Anna" as Hebrew for "grace", > "Annabel" as Hebrew for "eagle heroine" and "Arabella" as Teutonic for "eagle >heroine". Not very convincing.... *But* there obviously is a pre-internet tradition that Arabella has a Teutonic origin. Is there an *old* Teutonic name rediscovered and adapted? Perhaps a mythological figure? I can't find one. I've been scouting around various sites getting very confused, but it does seem as if the 'ar' part has old Norse/Teutonic 'eagle' connotations. For instance, Arnold means 'eagle power', from 'arn' = eagle and 'wald' = power (Grindel*wald*? Anyone know what the Grindel bit may mean?). Arabella doesn't sound at all germanic to me, but I have just realised that it is, of course, the name of one of Richard Strauss's operas and the eponymous heroine is Viennese. OTOH, it could have been imported into that part of the world from Scotland on the same wave of sentiment that led earlier Viennese composers to write 'Scottisches' and arrange Scottish folk songs. If we did go with (or add onto the others) the 'Eagle heroine' definition, then I suppose that we could suggest that perhaps Arabella's a Ravenclaw? Eloise ARILDA, ARILDE: hearth maiden ARMILDA, ARMILDE: armored battle-maiden ARNOLDINE, ARNOLDINA: strong like an eagle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mi_shell16 at hotmail.com Sun Sep 22 15:04:23 2002 From: mi_shell16 at hotmail.com (theresnothingtoit) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 15:04:23 -0000 Subject: Snape as a father figure (was: Re: Snape's "mind set?") Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44335 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., eloiseherisson at a... wrote: > Scene from PoA - One to One interview by Snape with Harry > I think one of the reasons Snape loses it with Harry, is that, detest him as > he does, he still has/feels he has an obligation to protect him. > Think about it. What is he doing when he meets Harry in the corridor before > he goes to Hogsmeade? He knows what Harry's like. He must know that if > there's any chance that Harry will find a way to get to Hogsmeade, he will > take it. He clearly *really* thinks he's up to something - look at the way he > stays to examine the witch's hump. > So Snape warns him off. He doesn't want him wandering off into Hogsmeade with > Black around. > But Harry goes. > And then, surprise, surprise, who should come along just as Harry emerges > from the witch's hump after his exploits, but Snape. > What a coincidence - Snape on the third floor corridor, well out of his > territory, at those two moments. I'm sure he does know there's a passage > entrance there, which is why he was keeping an eye out for Harry the first > time and why he got there so swiftly after Draco alerted him to Harry's > presence in Hogsmeade. Like Harry, Snape is 'rarely in a place for no > reason'. > > And his reaction? Well, honestly in some ways I think it's parental. He's > furious with Harry for deliberately putting himself in danger. He's stuck his > neck out for him, even defended him in the presence of Quirrelmort and now > the stupid, arrogant boy thinks he knows best and that he can do just as he > likes. > I'd be livid, too! I feel that some of Snapes reactions are incredibly parental. At the beginning of CoS when Harry and Ron did not catch the Hogwarts Express and flew the car to school I can imagine Snape being out of his mind with worry. McGonagall probably found this terribly amusing but allowed him to wait for the boys while she did the sorting. When the duo arrive Snape is not angry at the fact they missed the train, flew a car (and were seen), crashed into a tree and then insulted him. No. He is angry at the fact that the two boys made him worry. I can see Snape as the type of father who will ask twenty questions before he would let his son out the door: where are you going, what are you doing, who are you going with and do I know them, when are you coming back etc. etc. > And the trouble is that it's all so personal. > If we are to believe, as many do, that Snape was the one who warned > Dumbledore that Voldemort was after Lily and James, then he fears history > will repeat itself. > Because he's right - James *did* die because he was too arrogant to believe > he might be mistaken in Sirius. He trusted Sirius' judgement (leading to the > fateful swap of which Snape is unaware), rather than Dumbledore's. But the > end result was the same, whether Sirius or Pettigrew was the traitor and it > depended on James trusting Sirius above Dumbledore. But what if Snape did know. I think it would make an incredible stand off between Sirius and Snape if Snape knew. Snape probably felt that Azkaban was the best place for Sirius and for all Snape knew Peter really was dead. I feel Snape still sees Sirius as the reason that the Potters are dead. Theresnothingtoit From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 22 15:26:29 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 15:26:29 -0000 Subject: Sirius Black-What a Guy! In-Reply-To: <20020922050338.67654.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44336 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Nicole L." wrote: > I don't think that Sirius was looking at Harry as his > chance for redemption. In fact, I don't think Sirius > wants to be redeemed at all. I think he holds himself > accountable for the deaths of the Potters and I think > that he feels he deserves whatever torture and > punishment that he gets. I do think that he wanted to > make it up to Harry for his not being there throughout > Harry's life but I think that Sirius is more focused > on Harry's needs than his own. To me, to say that > Sirius wanted to redeem himself by taking care of > Harry implies a certain selfishness on Sirius's part > that I do not believe exists. I don't think there would be anything selfish about Sirius wanting to be redeemed. (I'm talking about redemption in the moral sense, mind you, not in any religious sense.) Of course he holds himself accountable for James and Lily's deahts -- if he didn't, there wouldn't be any need for redemption. Redemption isn't about escaping punishment or denying guilt -- in fact, admitting guilt and submitting to punishment is often a neccessary part of the process. But so is making amends and doing one's best to repair the harm done. Yes, Sirius is focused on Harry's needs. But I think he's very sharply aware that by helping Harry he's atoning for his past mistakes. > One thing that bothers me about analysis of Sirius is > that I feel that people often overlook his state of > mind. He has just spent 12 years in a place that > basically sounds like hell on Earth and the only > reason he managed to escape was because he was bent on > seeing justice done with respect to Pettigrew. When > he appears in PoA, he has had no human contact for 12 > years and has basically been psychologically tortured > that whole time. A person is not going to be normal > or of the most sound state of mind after something > like that. I agree. When people wonder why Sirius didn't do this, that or other sensible, rational thing during PoA, I always think that the question they should really be asking is why isn't he still in his cell in Azkaban, drooling on the floor and making goo-goo noises? The fact that he's functioning at all is remarkable. That he occasionally acts irrationally or flies off the handle is hardly surprising. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Sep 22 18:06:47 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 18:06:47 -0000 Subject: What Snape knew, was Snape as a father figure (was: Re: Snape's "mind set?") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44337 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "theresnothingtoit" wrote > > But what if Snape did know. [that Pettigrew was the traitor] I think it would make an incredible stand off between Sirius and Snape if Snape knew. Snape probably felt that Azkaban was the best place for Sirius and for all Snape knew Peter really was dead. I feel Snape still sees Sirius as the reason that the Potters are dead.<< That would mean that Dumbledore knew as well, or that Snape kept it back. But I can't believe that Dumbledore would have given evidence that Sirius was the Potters' secret keeper if he knew it wasn't so. And I can't believe that Dumbledore would still trust Snape, if he knew that Snape had allowed this. I think it far more likely that Snape knew that "Wormtail" was the traitor, but he believed "Wormtail" to be Sirius Black. This would explain Snape's reaction to the Map in Snape's Grudge, where he seems to be sure that the nicknames are associated with Sirius but not with Lupin. I can imagine that Snape broke cover to deliver a personal warning to James not to trust Black. For twelve years, Snape's told himself that if only the arrogant son of a witch had heeded him, James Potter would still be alive. Then, in the Shack, he's told that James did switch Secret Keepers, but not that James did so at Sirius' suggestion. So Snape is thinking that if James did switch, he did so on Snape's information. That's why he loses it...because he thinks if it's true that Sirius wasn't the Secret Keeper, then Snape himself was responsible for the Potters' deaths. Pippin From rvotaw at i-55.com Sun Sep 22 18:14:02 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 13:14:02 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ever so evils (was new Q&A thing)/ life debts/ Sirius Black References: Message-ID: <010501c26263$df47bc60$829dcdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 44338 --Arcum writes: > No problem with that. BTW, is anyone keeping track anywhere of whos > been accused of being ever-so-evil so far? Oh, good question. Let me see, here's who I can remember off hand, in no particular order: Dumbledore, McGonagall, Snape, Hagrid, Trelawny, Sinstra, Lupin, Sirius Black, Fudge, Bagman, Percy Weasley, Neville, Cho Chang(?), Draco. Didn't include all those "known evils" of course. Anyone else? Jeff writes: > Snape has a debt to James because James pulled him out of the tunnel > beneath the whomping willow when there was a full grown Werewolf in > the shrieking shack at the end of that tunnel. If James had NOT gone > after Snape,(Granted, it was Sirius' fault Snape was there in the > first place.) Snape would have died at the hands of the Lupin > Werewolf. Okay, now I've got it. So the only thing James had to gain was keeping his friends out of trouble. His own life was in no danger, therefore it is a life debt. Got it. Marina writes: > I don't think there would be anything selfish about Sirius wanting > to be redeemed. (I'm talking about redemption in the moral sense, > mind you, not in any religious sense.) Of course he holds himself > accountable for James and Lily's deahts -- if he didn't, there > wouldn't be any need for redemption. Redemption isn't about escaping > punishment or denying guilt -- in fact, admitting guilt and > submitting to punishment is often a neccessary part of the process. > But so is making amends and doing one's best to repair the harm > done. Yes, Sirius is focused on Harry's needs. But I think he's > very sharply aware that by helping Harry he's atoning for his past > mistakes. Yes, I too think he deserves a chance at redemption. In fact, my thoughts on his "laughter due to temporary insanity" stems from the realization that he himself *is* responsible for James and Lily's death. He tried so hard to keep them safe, suggested Peter for that reason, and then Peter was the very one to betray them. So as he told Harry, he was, in a way, responsible. That would drive me insane for sure, knowing that by trying to save my friends I had in fact led them straight to death. Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From ruhgozler at yahoo.com Sun Sep 22 13:29:24 2002 From: ruhgozler at yahoo.com (Linda Williams) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 06:29:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's DE past In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020922132924.69949.qmail@web40705.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44339 Erasmas and others wrote quite a bit about the DE trials and whether or not Snape was exposed there. Perhaps it wasn't a public outing that let Voldie know Snape was a spy. Perhaps it was Fudge or Crouch who spilled the beans to Voldie or Crouch Jr. at a later time. In GoF Chapter 33 we read: /He had reached the largest gap of all, and he stood surveying it with his blank, red eyes, as though he could see people standing there. "And here we have six missing Death Eaters... three dead in my service. One, too cowardly to return... he will pay. One, who I believe has left me forever... he will be killed, of course... and one, who remains my most faithful servant, and who has already reentered my service."/ When reading this I felt that the cowardly one was Karkaroff, the lost one was Snape and the faithful one was Crouch Jr. So it sounds to me that he knows of Snapes betrayal. Linda > > > ===== "The Fiction-Pusher" just ask my addicted friends. http://www.fictionalley.org __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From divaclv at aol.com Sun Sep 22 18:58:54 2002 From: divaclv at aol.com (c_voth312) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 18:58:54 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Temper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44340 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "serenadust" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Carol Bainbridge wrote: > > I'm probably in the minority here, but I don't see Sirius as > having a > > temper "problem." Again, it may just be semantics with me, but I > just > > don't see a problem. I'm not suggesting that Sirius doesn't get > angry, > > just contending that the anger isn't inappropriate. How much > evidence do > > we have of real anger? > > > I agree, Carol. I think that anger is often confused with temper, > but IMO a person can be exteremely angry and show it without > necessarily being considered bad tempered. For me, it depends > entirely upon the reason for the anger and no one in the Potterverse > has more reason to be angry than Sirius Black. > Sirius doesn't exactly have a "temper problem," at least not in the sense you mean of having uncontrolable and/or destructive outbursts of rage. But I do think he sometimes lets his passions get in the way of his reason. Consider PoA, for example--he wants to kill Peter and who can blame him, but to what end? If he offs Peter (particularly if he offs him in rat form--or would an Animagus revert to human shape after death? Something to think about), he'll have no real evidence of his innocence, and thus will be stuck in the same position he was to begin with. Not exactly the wisest course of action. Hey, I like Sirius--he's probably my favorite character in the series, but he's not perfect--a fact which is par for the course as far as JKR's characters are concerned. > I must be the only one who thought that Sirius slashed the portrait > of the Fat Lady, not so much in a fit of rage at being denied entry, > but in a desperate attempt to get *through* the actual portrait in > order to get to Griffyndor Tower. At the risk of being insensitive > to paintings who can speak and otherwise interact, the portrait *is* > just paint on canvas, not a sentient being. On my first reading of > this part of PoA, I just believed it was a physical barrier as far > as Sirius was concerned. > You know, I've never considered that, but now that you mention it I think it makes a lot of sense. ~Christi From Zarleycat at aol.com Sun Sep 22 19:08:20 2002 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 19:08:20 -0000 Subject: Ginny and Sirius In-Reply-To: <4e.117d8cd4.2abe31a7@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44341 ? > > And about the whole Sirius discussion I like him and all but IMO he's never > been quite right. For example when he was in Hogwarts he tried to kill Snape. Yes, Snape's death could have been a horrible result of Sirius' action. Snape certainly thinks that Sirius was, as he says in PoA, "capable of murder at the age of sixteen." But, I defy anyone to find, at this point, definitive canon proof that Sirius told Snape how to get past the Willow with the deliberate intention of using Werewolf!Remus to commit murder. > Does anyone know if Dumbledore knew about the prank? I'm not sure.... I think he knew very well about it, and that he sees in a somewhat different light than Snape. In PoA, right after Snape says the bit I've quoted above, he then says "You haven't forgotten that, Headmaster? You haven't forgotten that he once tried to kill me?" And Dumbledore's reply is "My memory is as good as it ever was." My reading of that is that Dumbledore knew of the prank, but, for whatever reason, does not see it in the same way as Snape does. Marianne, who will be really annoyed if JKR doesn't give us the whole "prank" backstory. From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Sun Sep 22 20:46:34 2002 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 13:46:34 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wand cores In-Reply-To: <008801c261dc$70704320$619ccdd1@istu757> References: <008801c261dc$70704320$619ccdd1@istu757> Message-ID: <892371388.20020922134634@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44342 Saturday, September 21, 2002, 7:04:51 PM, Richelle Votaw wrote: RV> So, what do you make of it? I, for one, want to see some more wand cores! I agree with you! I want to know what's at the core of Hermione's wand... Or Dumbledore's... Or Sirius'... Or Snape's... One thing about Ron -- When exactly do we learn about Ron's wand? Is it before or after it snapped in _CoS_? And if before, did he get another with the same core? Another question: Do two wands have to be from the same individual animal to be "brothers"? -- In other words, if Harry and Voldy's wands had come from *different* Phoenixes, would Priori Incantatum still have happened? -- Dave From zelda_of_arel at yahoo.com Sun Sep 22 20:40:13 2002 From: zelda_of_arel at yahoo.com (Isabelle) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 20:40:13 -0000 Subject: Sirius Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44343 Hi! New here. I'm 20. I'm from Hungary. Sirius is my fave. He has that bad good guy thing going for him. He's very exciting. Very refreshing. Passionate, most certainly. But he wasn't always like the way that we got to know him. Before prison he was probably a happy, gay person. The kind who smiles a lot, lives life to the full. Bet he was a ladies' fave too. Probably a different girlfriend every week. Now he has been to hell and back. Hell because of Azkaban and because he lost his best friend, his brother really. He blames himself for it. I don't think he would mind if he would have to spend the rest of his life in Azkaban if he knew that he got his vengance. Though rather that was what it was like when he got out. Then he met Harry and he realized that the boy needs him. Protection and otherwise. Frankly, he's the type of character I'd just love to have for a boyfriend. :-) OK, forgive me, but I'm 20 and you know what that's like. :-) Zelda From myphilosophy2001 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 22 17:15:27 2002 From: myphilosophy2001 at yahoo.com (Moonstruck) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 10:15:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Snape/Petunia Connection [was Snape's "Mind Set"] Message-ID: <20020922171527.31158.qmail@web20802.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44344 All right, Amy Z. and I have discussed this thoroughly ;-P and hopefully, I can make this clear enough without making myself look completely moronic: My mom and I were fooling around with some of the names and found this interesting possible clue: PETUNIA EVANS SEVERUS SNAPE Okay, remove the letters in "SNAPE" from "PETUNIA EVANS." Then, remove the letters in "EVANS" from "SEVERUS SNAPE." You'll find that if you rearrange the remaining letters, you get the names "PETUNIA" and "SEVERUS." Go ahead. Give it a try -- it really works! Now, as Amy Z. pointed out to me, the kind of letters used in the names make it such that removing the last names would logically *have* to leave us with the first names. That, though, is exactly why I'm suspicious. It simply seems too coincidental that these names are so similar that they produce this kind of strange word puzzler. I've tested many other pairs of names from the books and never found such a tidy "message" as I do here. Nor can I think of two names in the books that are so similar that this kind of thing can be accomplished. Consider this: "SEVERUS" and "PETUNIA" both consist of 7 letters. "SNAPE" and "EVANS" both consist of 5 letters "SNAPE" and "EVANS" are essentially the same name rearranged, minus the "P" in "SNAPE" and the "V" in "EVANS," conveniently enough, however, the "P" in "SNAPE" can be found in "PETUNIA" and the "V" in "EVANS" can be found in "SEVERUS." We *technically* don't yet know that Petunia's maiden name is Evans. We've always known her as "Petunia Dursley." Thus, a Snape-Petunia connection hasn't been hinted at until after the fourth book (in a Rowling interview). This seems to make sense, because it's not something Rowling would want us to suspect right away. And one could assume that the surname "EVANS," a rather commonplace, inauspicious name, is simply an arrangement of the letters needed to make this Snape-Petunia name connection possible -- just as "TOM MARVOLO RIDDLE" is a rearrangement of the phrase "I AM LORD VOLDEMORT." Consider, also, that Snape and Petunia have disturbingly similar dispositions toward Harry. They are both disparaging of him to an almost abusive degree. They both seem to take out their negative emotions toward James and Lily -- though especially James -- on Harry (who looks so much like James). And we have yet to be given a truly convincing reason for their extreme and emotional dislike of Harry. We suspect Petunia was jealous of Lily, either for her skills as a witch or the praise apparently heaped on her by Lily and Petunia's parents (or some other reason Rowling hasn't hinted at yet). But Snape's jealousy of James Potter doesn't quite fittingly explain his outsized hatred of Harry. We know it wasn't the "joke" that caused his distaste for James -- Snape hated him before then, as evidenced by Dumbledore's comment in SS/PS that Snape "couldn't bear being in your father's debt" and that Snape saved Harry so that "he could go back to hating your father's memory in peace." (300) If Snape was related to Petunia and, thus, Lily perhaps he shares the belief (voiced by Petunia, Vernon, and Marge) that James Potter somehow worsened Lily's life or even caused her death. Snape, like the Dursleys, tends to characterize James as a scoundrel, a low life. A Snape-Petunia connection might also reinforce suspicions that Petunia herself possesses some kind of wizarding skill, be it untapped or unevolved. Does that mean Snape and Petunia might be siblings? Does this name puzzler even signify a relationship between Snape and Petunia? Perhaps not. Make of it what you will, but it's certainly something to consider given the inexplicable similarities between their names and personalities. -Jessica ===== "Oh, I'll settle down with some old story/About a boy who's just like me/Thought there was love in everything and everyone/You're so naive!/After a while they always get it/They always reach a sorry end/Still it was worth it as I turned the pages solemnly, and then/With a winning smile, the boy/With naivety succeeds/At the final moment, I cried/I always cry at endings" - "Get Me Away From Here I'm Dying," Belle and Sebastian __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From xEmeraldxSnakex at aol.com Sun Sep 22 16:09:42 2002 From: xEmeraldxSnakex at aol.com (xEmeraldxSnakex at aol.com) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 12:09:42 EDT Subject: Any Lucius theories? Message-ID: <8.2ce93686.2abf4546@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44345 Hey everyone, I've been toying with a Lucius-centric fanfic idea for awhile now. But I still don't know much about him. Seeing as how all these talks about Snape and Sirius were going on, I figured I'd add Lucius into the fray. So what do you guys think about him? Personality? His occupation? Past? Is he having an affair with Snape? In my mind I always saw him as a PR kinda guy. It'd get him all the contacts in the Ministry he'd need and the money of course. And as we saw in CoS, he isn't beyond bribing and threatening to get his way. Any opinions would be greatly, GREATLY appreciated ^^ "EmeraldxSnake" From brian042 at hotmail.com Sun Sep 22 22:51:47 2002 From: brian042 at hotmail.com (Brian) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 22:51:47 -0000 Subject: Snape/Petunia Connection [was Snape's "Mind Set"] In-Reply-To: <20020922171527.31158.qmail@web20802.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44346 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Moonstruck wrote: > All right, Amy Z. and I have discussed this thoroughly > ;-P and hopefully, I can make this clear enough > without making myself look completely moronic: > > My mom and I were fooling around with some of the > names and found this interesting possible clue: > > PETUNIA EVANS > > SEVERUS SNAPE > > Okay, remove the letters in "SNAPE" from "PETUNIA > EVANS." Then, remove the letters in "EVANS" from > "SEVERUS SNAPE." > > You'll find that if you rearrange the remaining > letters, you get the names "PETUNIA" and "SEVERUS." > > Go ahead. Give it a try -- it really works! > > Now, as Amy Z. pointed out to me, the kind of letters > used in the names make it such that removing the last > names would logically *have* to leave us with the > first names. That, though, is exactly why I'm > suspicious. > > It simply seems too coincidental that these names are > so similar that they produce this kind of strange word > puzzler. I've tested many other pairs of names from > the books and never found such a tidy "message" as I > do here. Nor can I think of two names in the books > that are so similar that this kind of thing can be > accomplished. > > Consider this: > > "SEVERUS" and "PETUNIA" both consist of 7 letters. > > "SNAPE" and "EVANS" both consist of 5 letters > > "SNAPE" and "EVANS" are essentially the same name > rearranged, minus the "P" in "SNAPE" and the "V" in > "EVANS," conveniently enough, however, the "P" in > "SNAPE" can be found in "PETUNIA" and the "V" in > "EVANS" can be found in "SEVERUS." > > We *technically* don't yet know that Petunia's maiden > name is Evans. We've always known her as "Petunia > Dursley." Thus, a Snape-Petunia connection hasn't been > hinted at until after the fourth book (in a Rowling > interview). This seems to make sense, because it's not > something Rowling would want us to suspect right away. > > > And one could assume that the surname "EVANS," a > rather commonplace, inauspicious name, is simply an > arrangement of the letters needed to make this > Snape-Petunia name connection possible -- just as "TOM > MARVOLO RIDDLE" is a rearrangement of the phrase "I AM > LORD VOLDEMORT." > > Consider, also, that Snape and Petunia have > disturbingly similar dispositions toward Harry. They > are both disparaging of him to an almost abusive > degree. They both seem to take out their negative > emotions toward James and Lily -- though especially > James -- on Harry (who looks so much like James). > > And we have yet to be given a truly convincing reason > for their extreme and emotional dislike of Harry. We > suspect Petunia was jealous of Lily, either for her > skills as a witch or the praise apparently heaped on > her by Lily and Petunia's parents (or some other > reason Rowling hasn't hinted at yet). > > But Snape's jealousy of James Potter doesn't quite > fittingly explain his outsized hatred of Harry. We > know it wasn't the "joke" that caused his distaste for > James -- Snape hated him before then, as evidenced by > Dumbledore's comment in SS/PS that Snape "couldn't > bear being in your father's debt" and that Snape saved > Harry so that "he could go back to hating your > father's memory in peace." (300) > > If Snape was related to Petunia and, thus, Lily > perhaps he shares the belief (voiced by Petunia, > Vernon, and Marge) that James Potter somehow worsened > Lily's life or even caused her death. Snape, like the > Dursleys, tends to characterize James as a scoundrel, > a low life. > > A Snape-Petunia connection might also reinforce > suspicions that Petunia herself possesses some kind of > wizarding skill, be it untapped or unevolved. > > Does that mean Snape and Petunia might be siblings? > Does this name puzzler even signify a relationship > between Snape and Petunia? Perhaps not. Make of it > what you will, but it's certainly something to > consider given the inexplicable similarities between > their names and personalities. > > -Jessica > > > > > > > ===== > "Oh, I'll settle down with some old story/About a boy who's just like me/Thought there was love in everything and everyone/You're so naive!/After a while they always get it/They always reach a sorry end/Still it was worth it as I turned the pages solemnly, and then/With a winning smile, the boy/With naivety succeeds/At the final moment, I cried/I always cry at endings" > - "Get Me Away From Here I'm Dying," Belle and Sebastian > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > http://sbc.yahoo.com From catlady at wicca.net Mon Sep 23 01:53:16 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 01:53:16 -0000 Subject: Marvolo-Lockhart-Color Symbol-Dumblepuff-Maiden/Middle Name-Snape-Hagrid-Ara Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44347 Eloise wrote: << While we're on the subject of Voldemort's name, there's Marvolo to contend with. Has anyone ever come up with an etymology for this? Is it just a handy name for constructing Voldemort (I suspect so). I confess that it amuses me, as it sounds just like a stage magician's name: Roll up, roll up for the Great Marvolo! I take great delight in imagining that Voldemort's grandfather wasn't a wizard at all, but merely a music hall entertainer! >> It never occured to *me* that 'Marvolo' might be anything other than a relatively normal given name for wizards. Presumably some witch made it up sometime, as Shakespeare invented names like Miranda. The grandiosity you point to seems appropriate for the high opinion that the wizarding folk have of themselves. And I never thought it might be a surname; I don't want it to be a surname. Barb wrote: << At the end of CoS, there is every indication that Dumbledore knew Lockhart was full of it. >> Yes, Such as what he says in the "Dobby's Reward" wrap-up chapter of CoS, when told that Lockhart's Memory Charm had backfired on him: "Dear me," said Dumbledore, shaking his head, his long silver mustache quivering. "Impaled upon your own sword, Gilderoy!" To me, that clearly says that he knew all about Lockhart stealing other people's adventures by using Memory Charms. Felinia wrote: << And that red, green, blue and yellow are intended to stand forth as simple primary colors (although green isn't really a primary) that are distinctive (snip) So it's not true period heraldry, but more symbolic, >> Yes, my old idea was that the symbolism was colors associated with the four Alchemical Elements: Red for Fire, Yellow for Earth, Blue for Air, and Green for Water. (Many Wiccans use the symbolism of the Four Elements and assign colors to them, and I myself prefer the Red for Fire, Green for Earth, Blue for Water, and Yellow for Air system, but the color assignments are ARBITRARY: whatever works, works). (The Four Elements go with modern science if you say they are the states of matter: Earth the solid state, Water the liquid state, Air the gaseous state, and Fire the energy state.) Fire - Gryffindor - passion and courage Earth - Hufflepuff - work and patience Air - Ravenclaw - thought and communication Water - Slytherin - deviousness (water can sneak out of even the smallest crack in a vessel). As shown, the Four Elements do pretty much match up with the Four Houses, marred mainly by the plot's requirement that one House (Slytherin) be evil and the other good, when all four Elements have both good and evil aspects. (Devious is called flexible when it's good.) Theresnothingtoit: << Anyway the only other house that I could see Dumbledore being in is Hufflepuff. >> Hufflepuff House's yellow and black are the traditional honeybee colors. Honeybees area the traditional 'busy bee' of hard work, and were praised for creating the two best things: sweetness (honey) and light (candlewax). Are dumblebees the same colors? Hard-working? Do they make honey and wax? Ali is: <> USAmericans can do anything they want to their own names, but the USAmerican common tradition has been for married women to take their husband's surname AND use their maiden name as middle name, for several generations. I don't know whether it was tradition or a display of radicalism when some famous women of the 19th century did it: Julia Ward Howe, who wrote "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" for our Civl War, was one of them, and Harriet Beecher Stowe who wrote UNCLE TOM'S CABIN was another, but it was taken for granted as tradition by the time my parents married in the 1940s. Taken for granted as tradition with NO throught that the woman might keep a paid job after marriage. Richelle wrote: << Disembowling a barrel full of horned toads? The child has a toad for a *pet*!!!! It's child abuse!!! >> Horny toads are lizards, not toads, despite the name. Still, Snape probably INTENDED it to remind Neville of his pet; doesn't he have Ron pickling rats' brains in GoF, apparently unaware that Ron no longer has a pet rat? Who got frog guts under their fingernails, which Hermione removed with a Nail Cleaning Charm? If Neville, that could be another attack on his sentimental attachment to his toad. Mind you, if Snape ever admitted that he chose the punishments with regard to the punishee, he would claim that he was trying to cure them of childish sentimentality, as some Muggles have their children raise lambs or calves, then slaughter and eat them. Milz wrote: << Perhaps naming a child, "Hagrid", in the wizarding world is similar to naming a child "Prudence" or "Honor" in the real world? >> It's his surname, not his given name. His given name, Rubeus, could refer to red nose from drinking, but long ago some alchemy fans on this list pointed out that the most important men in Harry's life are Albus (white), Rubeus (red), and Black, and that albedo, rubedo, and nigredo are important stages in an alchemical process. To me, white red black reminds me of Triple Goddess (Wiccan or Robert Graves) rather than alchemy. Brian wrote: << What if a nightmare was a spectral horse (ala Piers Anthony) and its' mount was a hag (ala JKR et. al.)? It would therefore follow that "having a nightmare" would be synonymous with "awakening hag-ridden" or "hag-rid" for short. Just a silly train of thought, but fun. >> The Mare of night-mare IS the Hag who hag-rides unrestful sleepers. I am sure that I once read a JKR interview in which she said that "hagrid" is a dialect word for having had a bad night, and Hagrid often has bad nights, because of his drinking, but I can't find it now. The AMericah Heritage Dictionary http://www.bartleby.com/61/ says: "Hagride: RANSITIVE VERB: Inflected forms: hag?rode (rd), hag?rid?den (rdn), hag?rid?ing, hag?rides ... To torment or harass, especially with worry or dread: "a man hagridden by the future -- haunted by visions of an imminent heaven or hell upon earth" (C.S. Lewis)." and "Nightmare: NOUN: 1. A dream arousing feelings of intense fear, horror, and distress. 2. An event or experience that is intensely distressing. 3. A demon or spirit once thought to plague sleeping people. ETYMOLOGY: Middle English, a female demon that afflicts sleeping people : night, night; see night + mare, goblin (from Old English; see mer- in Appendix I)." doffy99 Jeff wrote: << Arabella(Latin) beautiful Alter. See also Belle, Orabella. >> Whenever I see a name that starts Ora-, I think of the possiblity that it is an alternate spelling of Aura- meaning "gold". From catlady at wicca.net Mon Sep 23 01:57:59 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 01:57:59 -0000 Subject: Magical Genetics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44348 First, HEY MOONSTRUCK! You have noticed people pointing out that Severus Snape is an anagram of Perseus Evans? Sometimes they suggest he changed his name to Severus Snape when he had adequately disgraced his birth-name Perseus Evans with Death Eating. Personally, I don't think Snape is related to the Evanses at all. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "corinthum" wrote: > Possibility #1: a single magic allele > Being that squibs are rare, I assume that the magic allele is the > dominant one, M. Corinth: << Possibility #1: a single magic allele. Being that squibs are rare, I assume that the magic allele is the dominant one, M. >> Excuse me, I think it is more likely that if magic were one gene- pair, that magic would be the RECESSIVE allele. Thus, any magic person must be double-recessive, thus any child of two magical parents would be magic (mm * mm = mm, as you know). The exception, non-magic child of two magic parents, Squibs, are extremely rare; to me, extremely rare MIGHT mean once in a generation. Rare enough that they could all be the result of a birth defect or mistaken paternity. Heterozygous people (Mm) would be Muggles, but two heterozygous people would have children in the famous pattern 25% MM, 25% Mm, 25% Mm, 25%mm = 75% Muggle and 25% Magic. That would account for there being quite a few magic children of Muggle parents, and some of them being siblings. However, I have a MUCH MORE COMPLICATED theory of inheritance of magic, which I explained in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/41509 -- "In my theory, the inheritance of magic is partly genetic and partly magical. I suggest that in general, there are a whole bunch of pairs of recessive genes that usually combine to make a person magical. How many of these pairs a person is double-recessive for, and which ones, would influence or control how strong their magic power is, and what forms of magic they are most talented at. But I also suggest that there is also a Magic that keeps the total number of wizarding people constant. When a wizard or witch dies, their magic goes to the next suitable child born in their area. Suitability would be a combination of the genes and of being surrounded by magic at the time. " and it goes on. From rvotaw at i-55.com Mon Sep 23 02:30:07 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 21:30:07 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wand cores References: <008801c261dc$70704320$619ccdd1@istu757> <892371388.20020922134634@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <00b901c262a9$2253af60$809ccdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 44349 Dave writes: > One thing about Ron -- When exactly do we learn about Ron's wand? > Is it before or after it snapped in _CoS_? And if before, did he get > another with the same core? I'm 95% sure both wands had the same core. I know for sure the new has a unicorn hair, it's in PoA, chapter 4: "Look at this, brand new wand. Fourteen inches, willow, containing one unicorn tail hair." > Another question: Do two wands have to be from the same individual > animal to be "brothers"? -- In other words, if Harry and Voldy's wands > had come from *different* Phoenixes, would Priori Incantatum still have > happened? I should think Priori Incantatum would only happen if the two feathers (tail hairs, whatever) are from the exact same bird, unicorn, etc. Which to me means it is a tremendously long shot for such a thing to happen. Ever. Not to mention that the spells must be cast simultaneously, which isn't that easy to time either. Richelle From lmccabe at sonic.net Mon Sep 23 03:36:04 2002 From: lmccabe at sonic.net (linda_mccabe) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 03:36:04 -0000 Subject: Trelawney--Where did I hear that name before (Sibyll) In-Reply-To: <12d.17bf2acc.2abeebba@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44350 >snazzzybird wrote: > > > > That made me wonder about Sibyll, too. Is she meant to be of Cornish descent? --Or is JKR a DuMaurier fan too? > > > > But I'm really kicking myself! eloise then wrote: > I'd been thinking about Sybil too, and looking up about Trelawney of the Wells, but lacking Suzanne's clear sight to make the obvious 'actress' connection! Talk about not being able to see the wood for the trees! > > Eloise > Ar um, I think you are overlooking something obvious here. Like Greek mythology. According to my handy dandy dictionary the word sibyl means: One of a number of women regarded as oracles or prophetesses by ancient Greeks and Romans. Although the actress part of Trelawney might be appropriate, I think the Occum's razor leads us to think that Sibyll for her first name is that of traditional meaning. Just as Sprout is a suitable name for the professor of Herbology. Always glad to be of help. The resident Goddess, Athena also author of: http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/L_C_McCabe/Sirius_Blacks_Secret_ Love/ From fyredriftwood at yahoo.com Mon Sep 23 04:16:20 2002 From: fyredriftwood at yahoo.com (Fyre Wood) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 04:16:20 -0000 Subject: Any Lucius theories? In-Reply-To: <8.2ce93686.2abf4546@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44351 xEmeraldxSnakex brought up a topic that had the following text: > > So what do you guys think about him? Personality? His occupation? Past? Is he > having an affair with Snape? Fyre Wood is now here with your daily dose of Malfoy, seeing as how I am an expert on the Malfoy family (in my opinion ^_~) JK Rowling said that he was a governer of Hogwarts... but what exactly that means, I have no idea. He dabbles in the dark arts and sells artifacts from Voldy's time of power to stores for money. I think that Lucius got his wealth either by inheritance or from the people he killed as a death eater. What's better than killing off innocent people and then stealing the keys to their life savings, or the money itself. Better make a clean job of it. His relationship with his son isn't all that close. He buys Draco's love and is sort of cold. I don't think of him as abusive, but rather- -unfeeling. Unloving. Just "bleh" for lack of better word. And no, he's not having an affair with Snape. Any Potter fan knows that he once had a relationship with James, and later became a sex slave to Voldy (That was a joke.. hope you took it that way... or I may have to have Stud!Neville attack you). One last random thought: Neville is NOT evil. --Fyre Wood, who is starting a JK Rowling baby pool on her website as soon as she can learn the html for it. From kaityf at jorsm.com Mon Sep 23 04:54:06 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 23:54:06 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius' Temper In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020922233208.03130958@mailhost.jorsm.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44352 Jo Serenadust wrote: > > I agree, Carol. I think that anger is often confused with temper, > > but IMO a person can be exteremely angry and show it without > > necessarily being considered bad tempered. For me, it depends > > entirely upon the reason for the anger and no one in the Potterverse > > has more reason to be angry than Sirius Black. Christie replied: >Sirius doesn't exactly have a "temper problem," at least not in the >sense you mean of having uncontrolable and/or destructive outbursts >of rage. But I do think he sometimes lets his passions get in the >way of his reason. I guess I don't see why it would be considered a problem, then, as some have suggested. In any case, I don't think I see his passion getting in the way of his reason -- inappropriately. Christie: >Consider PoA, for example--he wants to kill Peter >and who can blame him, but to what end? Well, in my view as I suggested before, I think he wants justice for the Potters. I don't think he's out to clear his name or any other such thing that would make any difference to *his* future. Then end, then, for him is justice. Christie: >If he offs Peter >(particularly if he offs him in rat form--or would an Animagus revert >to human shape after death? Something to think about), That is something to think about. I think I just assumed it would -- too many werewolf movies where the dead werewolf reverts to human form. Interesting.... >he'll have no >real evidence of his innocence, and thus will be stuck in the same >position he was to begin with. Not exactly the wisest course of >action. But he won't be in the same position. His position had been in prison paying for a crime he did not commit, feeling horribly guilty for his responsibility in the deaths of the Potters. He wasn't out to clear his name, so that's beside the point. No, if he killed Peter, he would be, as he himself said, committing the crime he was imprisoned for, and more to the point for him, he would be meting out justice for the Potters. He would be making Peter pay for turning over his good friends to Voldemort. Vigilante justice? Probably. But as some others have pointed out, the man has spent 12 years in a joyless place with prison guards who suck out your happiness and long to suck out your soul as well. He's been there feeling responsible for the deaths of his best friends. All of a sudden he sees the little creep who was really responsible is alive and well and living like the rat he is. How wise should we expect him to be? How much faith should we expect a guy whose been railroaded into Azkaban to put into the WW justice system. Nah, I think under the circumstances, Sirius is behaving quite well. I haven't seen any real evidence of his passions getting in the way of his reason under any other circumstances. I think he reasons things out quite well, as we see in GoF. Christie: >Hey, I like Sirius--he's probably my favorite character in the >series, but he's not perfect--a fact which is par for the course as >far as JKR's characters are concerned. I'm not sure he's my favorite, but certainly one of my favorites. I'm glad he's not perfect. As I said previously, he'd be flat and boring if he were perfect -- and so unlike real life. I think this is one of the reasons so many people are fascinated by Snape. One is so ready to dislike him, but then out comes some new information that puts him in an altogether different light. I know I really, really did not like him in PS/SS, thought he was a terribly nasty guy and just KNEW he was trying to kill Harry. I was quite surprised by that turn of events. I was also sure he had to be a secret DE, just waiting to go back to Voldemort. Then I discover he put himself at risk to work against Voldemort. This is a guy one can never be sure about. He never ceases to surprise me. Sirius, on the other hand, surprised me only in PoA, when I discovered that he really wasn't a villain, but a wronged man. The only part that still puzzles me about him, though, is why on earth he had his hands around Harry's throat in the scene in the Shrieking Shack. I sure thought he was trying to kill Harry, but we know he wasn't. What WAS he doing? Jo Serenadust > > I must be the only one who thought that Sirius slashed the portrait > > of the Fat Lady, not so much in a fit of rage at being denied entry, > > but in a desperate attempt to get *through* the actual portrait in > > order to get to Griffyndor Tower. At the risk of being insensitive > > to paintings who can speak and otherwise interact, the portrait *is* > > just paint on canvas, not a sentient being. On my first reading of > > this part of PoA, I just believed it was a physical barrier as far > > as Sirius was concerned. You aren't the only one who thought this way, although I confess that was not my first reading, but a later thought when I learned who Black was and what he was really up to. I also must confess that I allowed myself to be swayed by what Peeves said. Of course, everyone else in the book thought the same thing, so it seemed the thing to think. Christie: >You know, I've never considered that, but now that you mention it I >think it makes a lot of sense. I think this is one of the great things about this group. The discussions put all the events and people in the books in a light one has not considered before. It makes the stories even richer than they already are. I have been rereading the books yet again and can't believe the additional details I missed the first few hundred times I read them. Funny thing is, the details seem so terribly obvious now and lead to even more thoughts. I can't wait for book 5. Think there'll be a (bigger) flurry of activity here when it comes out? Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From nplyon at yahoo.com Mon Sep 23 05:11:26 2002 From: nplyon at yahoo.com (Nicole L.) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 22:11:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ginny touched by Vmort/DH ship/Evil Cho (was Re: Ginny touched by Vmort...) In-Reply-To: <1032601321.1174.38288.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20020923051126.70472.qmail@web20901.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44353 My esteemed friend and filker Lilac said: > > I still can't get over how many different types of > SHIPS there are out there! It just proves how > people interpret things very differently because of > different backgrounds and cultures. Go figure! Oh please, no more Draco and Hermione ships. Lilac, you're with me on this one, right? I was a lot like Hermione when I was in school, very studious, very serious, and very intent on getting top grades. I can think of several boys I knew who had similar personalities to Draco's and I can tell you that I never had any romantic interest in them. I absolutely cannot see Hermione learning to overcome Draco's shortsightedness and his bigotry so that she can fall in love with him. Where does that ship have to go anyway? Somehow I just cannot picture ickle Drakeykins feeling happy at the prospect of having Muggle in-laws. Sorry, but I just had to get it off my chest. :) Lilac said: > > Me too! Except, I still like the CONNIVING CHICK'S > REVENGE theory that Cho will become ever-so-evil > . The more I think about this the more I like it. I am convincing myself that Cho is going to do something that is going to have a significant negative impact on Harry somewhere along the line, whether she intends it or not. JKR is so good at throwing us for a loop that I find myself very suspicious of Cho. I just feel like there has to be more to her than we've seen so far. Uncmark said: > > "I'd like to see Ginny grow a bit more along with > the other supporting > characters (Neville, Seamus, Colin Creevy)" I would like to take this brief opportunity to declare that I *love* Colin Creevy. I think he is just *so* cute! Okay, who wants to throw tomatoes at me? I think most people find him obnoxious but I think there is something endearing about his puppyish attitude and I feel sorry for him every time Harry snubs him. Lilac said (with some snippage on my part): > > I think that Ginny is an Ace JKR is holding up her > sleeve. She has kept Ginny hidden and very much in > the background in the last two books for some reason > -- Very JKR-ish of her, I might say. My theory is > that this has something to do with her connection to > Voldemort through Riddle's diary, and her life-debt > to Harry. > True, Harry gained his bits o'Voldy through > a most powerful curse. But, Ginny was possessed by > the memory of a bright, powerful and evil 16 yr. old > for the better part of the year, at least from > Halloween until the end of the school year. This > might come into play in one of the next books. I completely agree with this. I really feel that each and every one of the Weasleys is going to become pivotal to the future novels in some way and Ginny is no exception. There is a reason why she was chosen to be the one that Lucius gives the diary to and I really think that JKR has something big up her sleeve for Ginny. I also feel that Ginny likely suffers from some post-Voldy problems like Harry's. I can't imagine that after having as intimate a connection with him as she did everything could be fine and dandy for her now that Harry got rid of Diary!Riddle. I basically think that Ginny was possessed by Riddle and to my mind that has to leave some sort of magical impact, something along the lines of Harry's scar, although I do believe that Harry is more closely connected to Voldemort because of his physical scar. Still, how do we know that Ginny doesn't bear some sort of physical, as well as emotional, scar from her experiences with Diary!Riddle? Lilac again: > > Now, with GInny's life debt...didn't Dumbledore say > this is magic at its deepest and most powerful (in > reference to Harry sparing Peter's life, hence Peter > is indebted to Harry)? Doesn't this create a bond > between the life-saver and the person saved? > IMO, when a person is saved, they are compelled to > help their "saver" when in their presence and their > safety/life is being threatened. Maybe the > person can't help but try to save their "saver's" > life, and that's how the magic works. But > this is just a pet theory of mine. No doubt it's > been talked about before, I know, but let me pretend > that I had at least one original thought.... Evil!Cho seemed original to me. At least, I don't recall seeing it discussed while I've been a member. Anyway, I also think there has to be more to the life-debt thing. After all, our attention is called to that almost as frequently as Hermione and her "haven't you read 'Hogwart's, A History? You can't apparate on Hogwart's grounds!'" Snape has a life debt to James because of the Prank. Pettigrew has a life debt to Harry because Harry told Lupin and Sirius to spare him in the Shrieking Shack. Ginny has a life debt to Harry because he saved her from the basilisk. How many more life debts are we going to see in the series? The WW seems to take these life debts very seriously so either they have a very heightened sense of honor or, as Lilac suggests, they have some sort of compulsion/obligation to make good on their life debts. Perhaps there is some sort of binding magical contract that comes about when one wizard or witch saves another's life. I think this is an interesting theory. Lilac, encoure une fois (got bored with English ): > > Okay, I'll poke a hole in my own theory...when has > Ginny ever shown any effort to save Harry when his > life was in danger, after the events of COS? Canon > doesn't tell us. Now, either she hasn't, and my > "magically compelled to save their life" theory > isn't any good, OR she was trying to save his life > and her efforts have gone unnoticed. OR...maybe the > person is compelled when all others who have a > life-debt to that person are not present or their > powers are incapacitated. We don't even know if > she's had the chance to feel compelled to save > Harry...Snape's always been there. It's late and > I'm not making any more sense.... No, I still think you're making sense. As far as I recall, Ginny hasn't been present during any of Harry's other life-threatening moments, other than the tasks he faced during the Triwizard Tournament. She certainly wasn't in the graveyard in GoF nor was she in the Shrieking Shack in PoA. I think she has not yet had her chance to fufill her debt. However, I see the bond between her and Hermione growing and I think Ginny will be spending more time with the trio in the future (or at least with Harry and the twins if she makes the Gryffindor team) so I think she will become closer to the danger and, subsequently, will be in a better position to have a chance to fufill her life-debt to Harry. I think Jo will tell us some more about life-debts and their significance in future novels. > > ~Lilac (who loves Ginny, always wanted red hair, and > has grown to love her own freckles splashed across > her nose and cheeks and dotted on her arms.) > ~Nicole (who married a guy with red hair and hopes to have her own little pack of Weasleys someday. :) ) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From eloiseherisson at aol.com Mon Sep 23 06:21:30 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 02:21:30 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Trelawney--Where did I hear that name before (Sibyll) Message-ID: <17b.efd8119.2ac00cea@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44354 Regarding Sybill Trelawney, Athena writes: > Ar um, I think you are overlooking something obvious here. Like > Greek mythology. According to my handy dandy dictionary the word > sibyl means: > One of a number of women regarded as oracles or prophetesses by > ancient Greeks and Romans. > > Although the actress part of Trelawney might be appropriate, I think > the Occum's razor leads us to think that Sibyll for her first name > is that of traditional meaning. Just as Sprout is a suitable name > for the professor of Herbology. I don't think either of us was missing anything, actually. We were discussing the significance of 'Trelawney', not 'Sybill'. Is there *anyone* on this board who doesn't realise the significance of her first name? Did *either* of us (Suzanne or myself) suggest that it wasn't significant? It's one of the most obviously meaningful names in the books. But a frequent topic of conversation is whether or not she is a *true* seer (at least most of the time). Allying 'seer' with 'actress' suggests an answer to that. OTOH, it may purely be a name chosen for its regional colour, or one JKR likes, or the name of a friend, whatever. If you read my posts you will realise that I keep a pretty open mind on a lot of this name meaning stuff. If it's really obvious, OK, but (as for Arabella, for instance) there are a clutch of suitable meanings, although I may favour one, I don't dismiss the others out of hand. But just because 'Sybill' has a significance, it doesn't mean that 'Trelawney' doesn't. Eloise Who has known what a sybil is for longer than the likes to confess. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 23 06:31:51 2002 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 06:31:51 -0000 Subject: Meaning of Arabella In-Reply-To: <167.144a75d5.2abf30bd@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44355 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., eloiseherisson at a... wrote: > Eloise writes: > For instance, Arnold means 'eagle power', from 'arn' = eagle and 'wald' = > power (Grindel*wald*? Anyone know what the Grindel bit may mean?). Apart from the fact that it's quite common in Germany, no. It's reminiscent of 'Grendel' in Beowulf - which either means 'storm' or 'angry/fierce' But a quick trawl of the internet gives several meanings for 'Grindle' in several languages - including narrow ditch, drain (OE), a type of fish in Carolina, or a breed of dog. 'Grendel'is probably the best bet - 'fierce/angry' seems appropriate enough for a Dark Lord. Pip!Squeak (Britain is currently treating its overnight 4.5 Richter scale earthquake as headline news. Showing that we are *really* not used to earthquakes. Things shook! Gosh! Chimmneys even fell off! Wow! Personally, I slept through it.[grin]) From A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk Mon Sep 23 10:02:16 2002 From: A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk (edisbevan) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 10:02:16 -0000 Subject: Trelawney--Where did I hear that name before In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44356 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Suzanne Chiles" wrote: > For a long time, I have tried to remember where I had heard the name > "Trelawney" before. Trelawney or Trelawny is a very famous Cornish name. So for Brits Sybil Trelawney is automatically linked to the West Country. As the little rhyme goes 'By Ros- Car- Lan- Tre-, Pol- and Pen- Ye shall know the Cornishmen.' Meaning that names like Trelawney, Poldark and Penhaligon are reliably those of Cornish people. The Cornish National Anthem, the 'Song of the Western Men', has the chorus: "And have they fixed the where and when? And shall Trelawny die? Here's twenty thousand Cornish men Will know the reason why!" If you want all the words plus background I can put this up over in Chatter. Edis From haunted.mansion at verizon.net Mon Sep 23 04:45:04 2002 From: haunted.mansion at verizon.net (Kronos) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 00:45:04 -0400 Subject: There's Something About Lucius (was Re: Any Lucius theories?) References: Message-ID: <3D8E9C50.C3A7B6F0@verizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 44357 Fyre Wood wrote: > JK Rowling said that he was a governer of Hogwarts... but what > exactly that means, I have no idea. He dabbles in the dark arts and > sells artifacts from Voldy's time of power to stores for money. By "Governor", Lucius was on the Board of Governors (which is rather similar to a muggle corporation's Board of Directors) which was comprised of twelve other wizards and witches. However, it didn't last: "Hogwarts was back to normal with only a few, small differences Defense Against the Dark Arts classes were canceled ("but weve had plenty of practice at that anyway," Ron told a disgruntled Hermione) and Lucius Malfoy had been sacked as a school governor. Draco was no longer strutting around the school as though he owned the place. On the contrary, he looked resentful and sulky." - from _Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets_ Lucius wasn't selling the aforementioned artifacts (CoS again, if I recall) for money, per se... he was selling them to get them out of his mansion if/when the Ministry of Magic raided it, looking for dark magics: ""Im not buying today, Mr. Borgin, but selling," said Mr. Malfoy. "Selling?" The smile faded slightly from Mr. Borgins face. "You have heard, of course, that the Ministry is conducting more raids," said Mr. Malfoy, taking a roll of parchment from his inside pocket and unraveling it for Mr. Borgin to read. "I have a few ah items at home that might embarrass me, if the Ministry were to call."" Later: ""Guess who I saw in Borgin and Burkes?" Harry asked Ron and Hermione as they climbed the Gringotts steps. "Malfoy and his father." "Did Lucius Malfoy buy anything?" said Mr. Weasley sharply behind them. "No, he was selling " "So hes worried," said Mr. Weasley with grim satisfaction. "Oh, Id love to get Lucius Malfoy for something " " - from _Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets_ > I think that Lucius got his wealth either by inheritance or from the > people he killed as a death eater. What's better than killing off > innocent people and then stealing the keys to their life savings, or > the money itself. Better make a clean job of it. I was under the impression that the Malfoys are "Old Blood" in the Wizarding World; I assumed that meant their fortune was mainly inherited. Besides, mere robbery seems beneath the Malfoys. > His relationship with his son isn't all that close. He buys Draco's > love and is sort of cold. I don't think of him as abusive, but rather- > -unfeeling. Unloving. Just "bleh" for lack of better word. Hole in one. I don't think there's a lot of love in the Malfoy household. -Kronos (Be gentle with me, first time posting.) From ezzie_mora at yahoo.com Mon Sep 23 04:48:39 2002 From: ezzie_mora at yahoo.com (ezzie_mora) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 04:48:39 -0000 Subject: Any Lucius theories? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44358 > JK Rowling said that he was a governer of Hogwarts... but > what exactly that means, I have no idea. I think this is sort of like sitting on a board of directors for a company or a bank. It's external to your real job and you dont get paid for it. You do it for rank, position and prestige. It's a sign of power. > He dabbles in the dark arts and sells artifacts from Voldy's > time of power to stores for money. An important point, because he's doing it to cover himself. He clearly has no problem turning his back on Voldemort as long as Voldemort never finds out. As soon as Voldemort confronts him on his 'not so forward' behavior, Lucius cowers. He has two faces and is willing to wear whichever will gain him power/ prestige/position. > I think that Lucius got his wealth either by inheritance I get the feeling that the Malfoy family has a great deal of money from being an old family. Draco has that sort of upper class, well educated, well connected feel about him. Sort of like the snobby upper class kids that go to schools in the real world. Malfoy's connections are referred to many times in the books: - When Lucius influences the other school governors into suspending Dumbledore. - He essentially paid his way out of a sentence in Azkaban. - Top seats at the World Cup. Isn't that something you could see a rich old family in the real world doing? > His relationship with his son isn't all that close. He buys Draco's > love and is sort of cold. I don't think of him as abusive, but rather- > -unfeeling. Unloving. Just "bleh" for lack of better word. This could either be a reflection of his personality - rich father who cares more about his status than love of his son. Or it could be because of the Dark Mark he wears - a theory that has been discussed on other boards. The idea that it supresses feelings that might lead to disloyalty to Vodlemort. > One last random thought: > Neville is NOT evil. One question on this topic, which is off topic. If Neville was standing in the chamber at the end of PS/SS and Voldemort said to him "Join me. Together we'll bring back your parents." What do you think Neville would do? I think he'd give old snake face a big thumbs up. -ezzie From haunted.mansion at verizon.net Mon Sep 23 05:01:44 2002 From: haunted.mansion at verizon.net (Kronos) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 01:01:44 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] re: Color Symbol References: Message-ID: <3D8EA038.FFDEA800@verizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 44359 "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > (The > Four Elements go with modern science if you say they are the states > of matter: Earth the solid state, Water the liquid state, Air the > gaseous state, and Fire the energy state.) I agree with you on the wiccan color correspondances. But for the record: energy is not matter, nor is it a state of matter (which is why we have both a Law of the Conservation of Matter as well as a Law of the Conservation of Energy. Granted, one can be converted to the other, however). The four forms of matter are solid, liquid, gaseous, and plasma (which works well enough for red). > Fire - Gryffindor - passion and courage > Earth - Hufflepuff - work and patience > Air - Ravenclaw - thought and communication > Water - Slytherin - deviousness (water can sneak out of even the > smallest crack in a vessel). > As shown, the Four Elements do pretty much match up with the Four > Houses, marred mainly by the plot's requirement that one House > (Slytherin) be evil and the other good, when all four Elements have > both good and evil aspects. (Devious is called flexible when it's > good.) I'd hesitate -- mightily -- to call Ambition "deviousness" or evil (ambition being the cardinal attribute of Slytherin). Indeed, one can easily be ambitious without being evil. -Kronos From lupinesque at yahoo.com Mon Sep 23 10:27:24 2002 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 10:27:24 -0000 Subject: Neville and his parents (was: Any Lucius theories?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44360 ezzie speculated: > If Neville was > standing in the chamber at the end of PS/SS and Voldemort said > to him "Join me. Together we'll bring back your parents." What > do you think Neville would do? > > I think he'd give old snake face a big thumbs up. I lean against. One of the few things that has been established about Neville's character is that he has a strong sense of integrity. I think he'll do fine if tempted by Voldemort, whether by a promise to restore his parents to normality or anything else. Time, of course, will tell . . . I must point out that it is only in the imagination of Steven Kloves that Voldemort tempts *anyone* with the return of his parents. JKR, thank goodness, wrote nothing so trite. Voldemort urges Harry to join him, but all he offers him is to spare his own life, not to bring back his parents (and there's no indication that Harry's tempted even to buy his life with the Stone). Constantly vigilant in guarding the wall between Canon and the CTMNBN, Amy Z From ksnidget at aol.com Mon Sep 23 13:02:02 2002 From: ksnidget at aol.com (ksnidget at aol.com) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 09:02:02 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Magical Genetics Message-ID: <112.17d5304e.2ac06aca@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44361 catlady at wicca.net writes: <> However this idea is contradicted by cannon. We have any number of 1/2 and 1/2's that are magical. Actually all the kids we know that are 1/2 and 1/2 are magical. And to date we haven't heard of any 1/2 and 1/2 that is non-magical, and we haven't heard that 1/2 and 1/2's have non-magical siblings. Also a population of recessive gene phenotype that cross breeds with the dominate gene population tends to find itself dying out. Rather than "if we hadn't married muggles we would have died out" I would think if it were recessive then crossbreeding with the non-magicals would have them die out much faster if the gene is recessive. That usually indicates a dominate gene. There is a lot more to genetics than JUST mendalian inheritance. Everyone ignores me, but in molecular genetics it is widely known that certain types of genes mutate to the dominate form quite regularly. TONS of people are born every single year that have two totally normal parents that end up with a DOMINATE genetic disease. Huntington's, some forms of dwarfism, several forms of mental retardation like fragile X. So it is well within the realm of possibility that the gene for magic is dominate. This also may explain the rare squib as the process that mutates most of these genes to the dominate form can be reversed, but this happens rarely. And there should this happen in the numerous heterozygous people (after all there is lots of cross breeding with non-magical people) so that a squib occurs every so often. Now I concur that some magic may be going on with the inheritance, but I don't know that we have to come up with very complicated systems to explain the genetics. Genetics is weird enough to come up with very simple explanations for the observed pattern. Jumping genes, transposons, could be another explanation for it, but we don't have as many examples of genes changing from one generation to the next with that as we have for the type of genes I have been discussing which have long sections of repeats that are unstable between generations. Once the gene becomes long enough the phenotype changes, and once it becomes long enough it is difficult for the gene to become short again. What I like about this is many of these genes effect the brain and magic seems to have a mental aspect to it. Ksnidget, Ph.D. Genetics. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rvotaw at i-55.com Mon Sep 23 12:58:23 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (rvotaw at i-55.com) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 07:58:23 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Neville and his parents / Lucius theories Message-ID: <2910367.1032785903228.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44362 > ezzie speculated: > > > If Neville was > > standing in the chamber at the end of PS/SS and Voldemort said > > to him "Join me. Together we'll bring back your parents." What > > do you think Neville would do? > > > > I think he'd give old snake face a big thumbs up. Then Amy Z wrote: > I lean against. One of the few things that has been established > about Neville's character is that he has a strong sense of > integrity. I think he'll do fine if tempted by Voldemort, whether by > a promise to restore his parents to normality or anything else. > Time, of course, will tell . . . I personally think that Neville would tell Voldemort to go to hell, or some similar place. I don't think Neville's as stupid and gullible as all that. I don't care what Draco said, I think Neville's plenty brave enough to be in Gryffindor. Well, obviously the sorting hat agreed. > I must point out that it is only in the imagination of Steven Kloves > that Voldemort tempts *anyone* with the return of his parents. JKR, > thank goodness, wrote nothing so trite. Voldemort urges Harry to > join him, but all he offers him is to spare his own life, not to > bring back his parents (and there's no indication that Harry's > tempted even to buy his life with the Stone). Amen, amen. Steven Kloves was using a George Lucas line there, not JKR. :) Fyre Wood writes: > I think that Lucius got his wealth either by inheritance or from the > people he killed as a death eater. What's better than killing off > innocent people and then stealing the keys to their life savings, or > the money itself. Better make a clean job of it. Ah, you bring up an interesting point. One I have been pondering for quite some time. Lucius, I suppose, could be just another cold blooded killer. But, he seems the type who's out for himself and no other. Like someone who doesn't just kill for fun, but for his own benefit. Could he even have taken hostages? Say, a whole family? As in "give me all your gold or I'll kill one family member a day until they're all dead." Picture this: A good clean wizard with a large family[say, for convenience sake, Arthur Weasley :)] comes home from work one day during Voldemort's reign. He finds the dark mark over his door. Rushes inside, finds one of his children dead. A ransom note of sorts has been left. He has twenty-four hours to empty his vault into Lucius's or more of his children die. Perhaps he's not fast enough, and another does die. Now, I confess this is a stretch, why not just kill them all and be done with it, then steal the gold. But maybe it's not as simple to get gold from a Gringott's vault as that. Perhaps only the owner of the vault can retrieve the gold. Perhaps precautions were taken to avoid DE's stealing gold from victims. It may not hold water, but it would help explain why the Weasley's are so poor. Arthur frequently demonstrates that his family is worth far more to him than money. As in a nice family trip rather than a vault filled with gold. Richelle ---------- ezzie speculated: > If Neville was > standing in the chamber at the end of PS/SS and Voldemort said > to him "Join me. Together we'll bring back your parents." What > do you think Neville would do? > > I think he'd give old snake face a big thumbs up. I lean against. One of the few things that has been established about Neville's character is that he has a strong sense of integrity. I think he'll do fine if tempted by Voldemort, whether by a promise to restore his parents to normality or anything else. Time, of course, will tell . . . I must point out that it is only in the imagination of Steven Kloves that Voldemort tempts *anyone* with the return of his parents. JKR, thank goodness, wrote nothing so trite. Voldemort urges Harry to join him, but all he offers him is to spare his own life, not to bring back his parents (and there's no indication that Harry's tempted even to buy his life with the Stone). Constantly vigilant in guarding the wall between Canon and the CTMNBN, Amy Z ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eloiseherisson at aol.com Mon Sep 23 13:17:17 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 09:17:17 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wand cores Message-ID: <19a.9224f13.2ac06e5d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44363 Richelle: > Dave writes: > > > One thing about Ron -- When exactly do we learn about Ron's wand? > > Is it before or after it snapped in _CoS_? And if before, did he get > > another with the same core? > > I'm 95% sure both wands had the same core. I know for sure the new has a > unicorn hair, it's in PoA, chapter 4: "Look at this, brand new wand. > Fourteen inches, willow, containing one unicorn tail hair." > And his old one contained unicorn hair, too. When he pulls it out on the Hogwarts Express on their first journey, we hear that, 'it was chipped in places and something white was glinting at the end.' Then Ron says, 'Unicorn hair's nearly poking out.' Richelle: >So my general assumption is that there must be other wand cores besides those >four. Sorry, I've been reading the thread backwards! Not in Ollivander wands. Ollivander quite specifically says (PS/SS) that the cores he uses are phoenix feathers, unicorn hair and dragon heartstring. He evidently finds sufficient supplies of those items. In GoF (Weighing of the Wands) he tells us he's never used Veela hair, as it makes for a temperamental wand. But who knows what other wandmakers use! Incidentally, this does bring up the more general question of just where all those magical ingredients do come from. I suppose you'd get rather a lot of heartstring, liver and blood from one dragon. They must have methods of preserving it, though. Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Mon Sep 23 13:37:30 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 13:37:30 -0000 Subject: Wand cores In-Reply-To: <19a.9224f13.2ac06e5d@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44364 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., eloiseherisson at a... wrote: > Sorry, I've been reading the thread backwards! > Not in Ollivander wands. Ollivander quite specifically says (PS/SS) that the > cores he uses are phoenix feathers, unicorn hair and dragon heartstring. He > evidently finds sufficient supplies of those items. In GoF (Weighing of the > Wands) he tells us he's never used Veela hair, as it makes for a > temperamental wand. But who knows what other wandmakers use! This really makes me wonder about phoenix feather wands. We've only met one phoenix so far, Fawkes, and we were told he's only ever given two feathers. Where are all the other phoenixes who are donating their feathers to all the other wands? For that matter, shouldn't the Priori Incantatem effect be a lot more common than it is? Unicorns and dragons come in finite numbers too. I can see it now: Death Eater: Avada Kedavra! Auror (at the same time): Stupefy! Death Eater: Darn, our wand cores must've come from the same unicorn! Auror: Yeah, that's the third time it happened to me this week. Wanna just arm wrestle for it? I suppose that in peace time, most wizards go through life without ever having to duel anyone else, so the issue never comes up for them. But during Voldemort's first rise, when everyone seemed to be fighting everyone else, I would expect it to come up at least a little. (Hmm... maybe that's when the effect was first discovered?) Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From eloiseherisson at aol.com Mon Sep 23 13:37:17 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 09:37:17 EDT Subject: Snape's DE past/ What is he up to? Message-ID: <133.14bcd9de.2ac0730d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44365 Erasmas: > eloiseherisson at a... wrote: > > A great many people make the same assumption, which in itself is > not unreasonable, given the apparently public outing he gets in the > Pensieve hearing. > > I think we pretty much have to assume that that particular hearing > was closed, meaning not on public record with witnesses sworn to > secrecy. Otherwise Snape's cover had already been blown before > Voldemort's first fall. Eloise: Let me just make it clear for anyone picking up the thread at this point that the whole point of my post was to dispute the notion that Snape's outing was, in fact, public. I was simply saying that this is how it appears at first sight (note use of *apparently*) and that I accept that those who believe that it was so do so on reasonable grounds. But this hearing was after Voldemort's fall. There is no indication of the circumstances under which Dumbledore originally gave his evidence regarding Snape, so I don't quite follow your last point. Erasmas: > > In the Pensieve chapter of GoF, Harry notices Rita Skeeter attends > the session with Bagman and then Crouch Jr. Eloise: These are two separate Pensieve memories and there is no mention of Rita in the Crouch Jr sentencing scene that I recall. Erasmus: It was Karkaroff's trial > that Dumbledore repeats his testimony that Snape had been turned before > Voldemort's downfall. Since Karkaroff's trial was more part of > an investigation than a sentencing hearing, it would make sense that > it would be closed to the press and the public. Eloise: True, but JKR refers to the 'crowd' that are in attendance and doesn't suggest that the chamber is any fuller for the other two scenes. Erasmas: > Dumbldore lays it out in the open: "'I have given evidence already on > this matter," he said calmly. "Severus Snape was indeed a Death > Eater. However, he rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall > and turned spy for us, at great personal risk. He is now no more a > Death Eater than I am.'" > > I don't see how he could say that if that session had been a public > hearing. <> Eloise: Nor do I. That is a reason why I suggested that there must have been some method by which the acquitted or innocent were protected. Erasmas: > > The session that Skeeter attended would almost have to be open, since > Bagman was a wizarding household-name at the time, and since there > was widespread interest in punishing the torturers of the > Longbottoms. I suspect that this hearing was exceptional for allowing > reporters and presumably other members of the public to attend. Eloise: That would depend on the way which Wizard justice, somewhat idiosyncratic, as we know, operates. I don't think these two hearings, or rather sentencings, should *have* to be public simply because there is public interest. If the session involving Bagman *was* public and Rita was allowed to publish it, then it seems odd that Sirius who, granted, was locked up at the time, but has been doing his homework since he came out, knows nothing about him, other than the fact that he used to play for the Wimbourne Wasps. It also make me very suspicious that Rita *could* tell us things about him to make our hair curl, but *doesn't*, which point I used to suggest that there was indeed some secrecy injunction. ........................ Carol: > Snape reminds me of the person who works hard, does well (very well) > and still doesn't get the kind of attention he thinks he deserves. What I > think he lacks is charisma. Some people have it, some don't. James Potter > > clearly had it, and Snape clearly doesn't. <> Eloise: Except amongst readers! This is one of the ironies, isn't it? Does James Potter have his own dedicated fan site? Does anyone out there have a crush on James? Is there anything anyone seriously wants to know about James, other than where he got his wealth from? *Who* was it didn't have charisma? ;-) But seriously, I think it is recognition fror his achievements rather than his personality that he craves, or, perhaps more to the point, achieving something he deems worthy of recognition (such as being instrumental in defeating Voldemort or, for starters, catching Sirius). I don't think he'd be jealous of another guy's charisma as such. Carol: <> It doesn't matter if Snape likes >Harry or not; if he sees a way to make use of Harry and his abilities to >defeat Voldemort, then he will, especially if he'll look good for doing >it. If he helps protect Harry, he may think he will be appreciated for >that. Even if Snape doesn't *know* what Harry's special abilities are, he >still may believe that Harry could be a good "tool" to use against >Voldemort. He must, however, believe that whatever those abilities are, >Harry doesn't need to be "trained up a bit" in order to use >them. Otherwise he wouldn't keep trying to get Harry expelled. So, while >some of this does make sense, some of it is still problematic. Eloise: I have for a long time believed that Snape is jealous of Harry, the boy who keeps thwarting Voldemort (as a baby, without even trying). He just projects envy all the time. If he wants him expelled, it may well be because he does simply want him out of the way so he can get on with redeeming himself, or proving himself, or whatever else is on his personal agenda. Or he may have a more disinterested reason, thinking Harry less at risk if he is expelled and back in the permanent protection of the Dursleys. I think it doubtful, but I include it for completeness! Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From crussell at arkansas.net Mon Sep 23 15:13:33 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 15:13:33 -0000 Subject: Muggles/Muggle-born: what's the difference? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44366 First of all, I want to thank everyone who responded to my Sirius Black post-even the ones who do not like him. It was good to find out that a lot of people agree with me-at least, about Sirius. I want to introduce a new topic if I can. There seems to be some confusion concerning the difference between a muggle and a muggle- born. Even Tom Riddle aka Voldemort seems to interchange the two phrases at will. Someone mentioned in an earlier post, that to someone like Voldemort, the difference between muggles and muggle- borns is virtually non-existant. In other words, he detests them both equally- as do people like the Malfoys. IMO, the difference between them is small- but it is an important difference. Have you ever noticed that when someone like the Weasleys' or Dumbledore refers to a witch or wizard with no wizard heritage, they always use the term "muggle-born"-in this case, it is not an insult, but merely a way of distinguishing. When someone like Draco, uses the term( he usually uses the word, "mudblood"-which is ten times worse)-it is meant to be an insult. In other words, at least in this situation, context is important. The Weasleys understand there is a difference between being a pure-blood and a muggle-born- but the difference simply holds no importance to them whatsoever. IMO, here are the definitions, as far as I can make out: Muggles are non-magical humans-no magical abilities-no magical heritage. Muggle-borns are witches and wizards-they have magical abilities-but no magical heritage. In CoS, Tom Riddle refers to Lily Potter as being "muggle- born"- a witch (most definitely!) with no magical ancestry. In GoF, Voldemort compares Lily to his own hated father- a muggle. However, he does use the word "almost" when comparing the two- as you can see, even Voldemort knows there is a difference between the two. In other words, what it comes down to, IMO, is this: Voldemort treats Muggles and Muggle-borns the same-even though one group is magical and the other is not. Magical abilities carry no weight is his classification system-only heritage. The Weasleys and those like them- treat everyone regardless of heritage and/or magical abilities with respect. bugaloo37 From rvotaw at i-55.com Mon Sep 23 15:08:56 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (rvotaw at i-55.com) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 10:08:56 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wand cores Message-ID: <1700533.1032793736656.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44367 > > Richelle: > >So my general assumption is that there must be other wand cores besides > those >four. Eloise: > Sorry, I've been reading the thread backwards! > Not in Ollivander wands. Ollivander quite specifically says (PS/SS) that the > cores he uses are phoenix feathers, unicorn hair and dragon heartstring. He > evidently finds sufficient supplies of those items. In GoF (Weighing of the > Wands) he tells us he's never used Veela hair, as it makes for a > temperamental wand. But who knows what other wandmakers use! In fact, the words used by Hagrid when taking Harry to Olivander's makes me believe there may even be other wand shops in Diagon Ally. Or perhaps over in Knockturn ally? The more dangerous cores perhaps? Anyway, I had to run to the library while my kids were in there today to check, as I don't (yet) have a set of books in my classroom. Hagrid says something like "That'll be Ollivander's, there's no other place for wands. And you'll want the best wand." His words "there's no other place" sound to me like there are other places, but Ollivander's is the best. Especially since he says Harry'll want the best wand. Perhaps there are less expensive wands with other cores? The Fwooper feather, for example? :) Or the (seemingly) more common Irish Phoenix, the Augurey. It's kind of like saying, there's no other place for French Fries than McDonald's. There are plenty of other places, the speaker would simply imply that he preferred those from McDonald's. Make sense? > Incidentally, this does bring up the more general question of just where all > those magical ingredients do come from. I suppose you'd get rather a lot of > heartstring, liver and blood from one dragon. They must have methods of > preserving it, though. This would fit with my theory of other wand makers in London. If the Phoenix feathers, Unicorn tail hair, and Dragon heartstring are more rare, they would be more expensive, but perhaps also considered "best." But if they sell wands in Knockturn ally, who knows what sort of core they'd have! Chimera hair? (if anyone ever got close enough!) Richelle ---------- Richelle: > Dave writes: > > > One thing about Ron -- When exactly do we learn about Ron's wand? > > Is it before or after it snapped in _CoS_? And if before, did he get > > another with the same core? > > I'm 95% sure both wands had the same core. I know for sure the new has a > unicorn hair, it's in PoA, chapter 4: "Look at this, brand new wand. > Fourteen inches, willow, containing one unicorn tail hair." > And his old one contained unicorn hair, too. When he pulls it out on the Hogwarts Express on their first journey, we hear that, 'it was chipped in places and something white was glinting at the end.' Then Ron says, 'Unicorn hair's nearly poking out.' Richelle: >So my general assumption is that there must be other wand cores besides those >four. Sorry, I've been reading the thread backwards! Not in Ollivander wands. Ollivander quite specifically says (PS/SS) that the cores he uses are phoenix feathers, unicorn hair and dragon heartstring. He evidently finds sufficient supplies of those items. In GoF (Weighing of the Wands) he tells us he's never used Veela hair, as it makes for a temperamental wand. But who knows what other wandmakers use! Incidentally, this does bring up the more general question of just where all those magical ingredients do come from. I suppose you'd get rather a lot of heartstring, liver and blood from one dragon. They must have methods of preserving it, though. Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk Mon Sep 23 15:46:56 2002 From: A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk (edisbevan) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 15:46:56 -0000 Subject: Any Lucius theories? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44368 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Fyre Wood" wrote: on the Malfoy family > JK Rowling said that Lucius malfoy) he was a governer of > Hogwarts... but what exactly that means, I have no idea. Each school in the UK has a Board of Governors. The precise duties vary between state and private schools and between legal jurisdictions (for example its diferent in Scotland from the example linked below). To see whats involved look at this document from the UK Government online site www.sheffield.gov.uk/services/education/governors/docs/ Open the document whats involved.rtf Key phrase: >>> School Governing Bodies are made up of: Parent Governors Teacher and Staff governors The Headteacher (unless they choose not to be) Local Education Authority governors Co-opted governors The governing body has a general responsibility for seeing that the school is run effectively so that it provides the best possible education for its pupils. This has to be done within the framework set by legislation and the policies of the Local Education Authority. Governors are not expected to take detailed decisions about the day- to-day management of the school. That is the job of the headteacher. A good headteacher will discuss all the main aspects of school life with the governing body and expect them to offer general guidance. A good governing body will delegate enough powers to allow the headteacher to get on with managing the school. The governing body are responsible to parents and the LEA for the way the school is run and the headteacher will want to have their support. <<< It is a voluntary post with high community prestige. Essentially the appointment and dismissal (very difficult in Muggle life) of a head teacher is doen by the Governors. Edis Bevan From divaclv at aol.com Mon Sep 23 16:11:55 2002 From: divaclv at aol.com (c_voth312) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 16:11:55 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Temper In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020922233208.03130958@mailhost.jorsm.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44369 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Carol Bainbridge wrote: > > Well, in my view as I suggested before, I think he wants justice for the > Potters. I don't think he's out to clear his name or any other such thing > that would make any difference to *his* future. Then end, then, for him is > justice. > But that's not justice, that's vengeance. And I think Sirius is confusing the two, which is what I mean when I say his passions get ahead of his reason. > But he won't be in the same position. His position had been in prison > paying for a crime he did not commit, feeling horribly guilty for his > responsibility in the deaths of the Potters. He wasn't out to clear his > name, so that's beside the point. No, if he killed Peter, he would be, as > he himself said, committing the crime he was imprisoned for, and more to > the point for him, he would be meting out justice for the Potters. He > would be making Peter pay for turning over his good friends to > Voldemort. Vigilante justice? Probably. But as some others have pointed > out, the man has spent 12 years in a joyless place with prison guards who > suck out your happiness and long to suck out your soul as well. He's been > there feeling responsible for the deaths of his best friends. All of a > sudden he sees the little creep who was really responsible is alive and > well and living like the rat he is. How wise should we expect him to > be? How much faith should we expect a guy whose been railroaded into > Azkaban to put into the WW justice system. Nah, I think under the > circumstances, Sirius is behaving quite well. I haven't seen any real > evidence of his passions getting in the way of his reason under any other > circumstances. I think he reasons things out quite well, as we see in GoF. I'm not saying he doesn't have justifiable reason for being irrational, just that he is. What if Peter knew something about Voldemort's potential for returning? What if another former DE starts gunning for Harry--who will protect him then? Doesn't Harry (as Lupin points out to him) have the right to know what really happened the night his parents died? And most importantly, could he really undo the mistakes of his past with a suicide mission of this nature? That's the problem with eye-for-an-eye, you end up blinded. I'm willing to concede, though, that this could be an isolated incident based in extreme psychological duress. I'm waiting to see what happens between Sirius and Snape before passing final judgement-- now THAT'S a powder keg just waiting to go off... ~Christi From sydpad at yahoo.com Mon Sep 23 16:10:53 2002 From: sydpad at yahoo.com (Sydney) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 16:10:53 -0000 Subject: Snape's DE past/ What is he up to? In-Reply-To: <133.14bcd9de.2ac0730d@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44370 Just a quick note from a newbie-- like Eloise, I had formulated a little theorie-ette to smooth over the difficulties of Snape's outing at the tribunal. The only way I could make sense of this is by assuming the trials were covered by some kind of secrecy charm, rather like the Fidelius-- everyone in the court room knew what happened, but where constrained from revealing it if the subject was aquitted. The fly in this ointment though is the end of GoF, where Fudge says (hang on, I'll go grab my book...) "'You are merely repeating the names of those who were aquitted of being Death Eaters thirteen years ago!' said Fudge angrily, "You could have found those names in old reports of the trials!"' Any way around this? Is Fudge ever-so-evil, and knows perfectly well that Harry couldn't have obtained these names that way? Is he too hysterical to think clearly? Or is Snape's spying public knowledge, and he merely dodges assasination attempts every other Wednesday? - Sydney, whose hobby is coming up with patches for Rowling's gorgeous but rather buggy programming.... From crussell at arkansas.net Mon Sep 23 17:29:19 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 17:29:19 -0000 Subject: Neville and his parents / Lucius theories In-Reply-To: <2910367.1032785903228.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44371 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rvotaw at i... wrote: > Arthur frequently demonstrates that his family is worth far more to him > than money. As in a nice family trip rather than a vault filled with gold. > > Richelle This may be off the thread that is being discussed here-but it does contain some ideas concerning the Malfoys. I know it has been discussed many times before-that is the issue of where wizards get their money- but I find it fascinating. Even though there are many families represented at Hogwarts-we only are really familiar with three- the Weasleys, the Potters, and the Malfoys. When I say familiar, I do not mean we know every detail of their families-but we do have a little more knowledge about them then say for instance, the Longbottoms. When we look at these three families what do we see- let's take the Weasleys-they are a pure-blood family -which means a long line of wizards in their past-but they are most definitely poverty-stricken. They befriend muggle-borns like Hermione and have an admiration and/or fascination with muggles in general. The Potters are also a pure-blood family( James' side). They apparently are quite wealthy. We do not know where that inheritance came from (how it was gained). They apparently have no trouble with muggles or muggle-borns-after all, James married one. Then there are the Malfoys-another pure-blood family with inherited wealth. Are we to assume that their means of inheriting this wealth was any less "noble" than the Potters? They despise muggles and muggle- borns. They sided with Voldemort-til the kitchen got too hot. They seem to go with whatever side is going to profit them the most. What lesson are we supposed to be learning through these three families? Are the Weasleys poor because they defend muggles? If so, why are the Potters wealthy? Are the Malfoys wealthy through devious means? And the Potters wealth gained through more noble pursuits? I know in the case of the Malfoys and the Potters, that their wealth was inherited-but that money had to be earned some way-so how was it done? If anyone has any theories concerning any of the above questions-please fill me in. bugaloo37-who knows that this line has probably been pursued before- she just wasn't paying attention. From gandharvika at hotmail.com Mon Sep 23 17:29:45 2002 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 17:29:45 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hufflepuff Fight Song(FILK) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44372 Hufflepuff Fight Song (a FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _The Victors_) Ah...Quidditch season draws nigh...and for me, there's nothing quite like the sound of a marching band practicing on the field in anticipation for the first game. If Hogwarts had a marching band (as well they should!) perhaps they'd play this filk...to the tune of _The Victors_, otherwise known as _The University of Michigan Fight Song_ (any U of M alumni/fans out there?) Listen to it here: http://www.mgoblue.com/marching-band.html ('Click' on _Victors_...you might have to wait for it to download) Let's hear it for the Hufflepuff DUFFERS (Don't Underestimate Fiercely Faithful, Especially Resourceful Students)!!!! (Thanks Nicole for the acronym...you're the most!) ******************************************* Now raise a cheer, they are here victorious Here they come on broomsticks flying Precision moves, death defying With shouts of victory crying We huzzah! huzzah! We greet you now Hail! Far we their praises sing For the golden snitch they've caught us Loud let the bells they ring For here they come on broomsticks flying Far we their praises tell For the golden snitch they've caught us Loud let the bells they ring For here they come on broomsticks flying Here they come, huzzah! Hail! to the victors valiant Hail! to the Quidditch heroes Hail! Hail! to Hufflepuff The leaders of the sport Hail! to the victors valiant Hail! to the Quidditch heroes Hail! Hail! to Hufflepuff The champions of Hogwarts We cheer them again We cheer and cheer again For Hufflepuff we cheer for Hufflepuff We cheer with all our strength We cheer cheer cheer With all our strength we cheer Hail! to the victors valiant Hail! to the Quidditch heroes Hail! Hail! to Hufflepuff The champions of Hogwarts -Gail B...whose initials, "G.B." could also stand for, "GO BADGERS!" _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From fyredriftwood at yahoo.com Mon Sep 23 17:35:42 2002 From: fyredriftwood at yahoo.com (Fyre Wood) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 17:35:42 -0000 Subject: Neville's Temptation with Power and NINE( and was Re: Any Lucius theories?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44373 I originally posted this as a random thought: > > > One last random thought: > > Neville is NOT evil. > Ezzie Replied with this: > One question on this topic, which is off topic. If Neville was > standing in the chamber at the end of PS/SS and Voldemort said > to him "Join me. Together we'll bring back your parents." What > do you think Neville would do? > I think he'd give old snake face a big thumbs up. Fyre Wood (ME) Replies: While still being the ring leader for the organization of N.I.N.E (Neville is NOT evil), I still agree with your statement of giving the thumbs up. I don't think that Neville would be doing this for power, but rather to see his parents as "normal." Think about it: He's never known his parents, other than the hallow shell of their bodies that reside in St. Mungos. He visits them every holiday, only to find that they're in the same condition. If Neville had the opportunity to being them back, I think he would. He wouldn't do it for the Power or Glory that Voldy is promising him, but rather for the opportunity for him to sit down with his parents one day and have them ask, "How was your term?" or hear the words, "I Love You!" from his mother's lips. When put in this perspective, one can only see that it would happen this way. Neville longs for his parents and to be accepted. If Voldy could give him that, I think he'd do it--but would hate the consiquences of having to do Voldy's bidding. Once again I stress: NINE! NINE! NINE! He's not evil I tell you! --Fyre Wood, who is happy to have ranted on her other boy-toy, Neville Longbottom. Oh yes, Stud!Neville is on his way. =) From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Mon Sep 23 17:43:59 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 17:43:59 -0000 Subject: Snape's DE past/ What is he up to? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44374 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sydney" wrote: > The fly in this ointment though is the end of GoF, where Fudge > says (hang on, I'll go grab my book...) > > "'You are merely repeating the names of those who were > aquitted of being Death Eaters thirteen years ago!' said Fudge > angrily, "You could have found those names in old reports of the > trials!"' > > Any way around this? Is Fudge ever-so-evil, and knows perfectly > well that Harry couldn't have obtained these names that way? Is > he too hysterical to think clearly? Or is Snape's spying public > knowledge, and he merely dodges assasination attempts every > other Wednesday? Well, it would certainly explain why Snape is always in such a bad mood. :-) However, it's possible that Snape's name was left out of the trial reports and records. If I was Dumbledore, and I found a guy to spy for me at a time when reliable spies were scarce, I certainly would try to make sure that he wasn't listed in any official records with a little red "Spy" flag next to his name... Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From fyredriftwood at yahoo.com Mon Sep 23 17:44:32 2002 From: fyredriftwood at yahoo.com (Fyre Wood) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 17:44:32 -0000 Subject: Neville's Temptation with Power and NINE( and was Re: Any Lucius theories?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44375 I originally posted this as a random thought: > > > One last random thought: > > Neville is NOT evil. > Ezzie Replied with this: > One question on this topic, which is off topic. If Neville was > standing in the chamber at the end of PS/SS and Voldemort said > to him "Join me. Together we'll bring back your parents." What > do you think Neville would do? > I think he'd give old snake face a big thumbs up. Fyre Wood (ME) Replies: While still being the ring leader for the organization of N.I.N.E (Neville is NOT evil), I still agree with your statement of giving the thumbs up. I don't think that Neville would be doing this for power, but rather to see his parents as "normal." Think about it: He's never known his parents, other than the hallow shell of their bodies that reside in St. Mungos. He visits them every holiday, only to find that they're in the same condition. If Neville had the opportunity to being them back, I think he would. He wouldn't do it for the Power or Glory that Voldy is promising him, but rather for the opportunity for him to sit down with his parents one day and have them ask, "How was your term?" or hear the words, "I Love You!" from his mother's lips. When put in this perspective, one can only see that it would happen this way. Neville longs for his parents and to be accepted. If Voldy could give him that, I think he'd do it--but would hate the consiquences of having to do Voldy's bidding. Once again I stress: NINE! NINE! NINE! He's not evil I tell you! --Fyre Wood, who is happy to have ranted on her other boy-toy, Neville Longbottom. Oh yes, Stud!Neville is on his way. =) From jodel at aol.com Mon Sep 23 18:13:18 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 14:13:18 EDT Subject: Wand cores Message-ID: <1a5.8ef1f94.2ac0b3be@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44376 Dave Hardenbrook writes; >>One thing about Ron -- When exactly do we learn about Ron's wand? Is it before or after it snapped in _CoS_? And if before, did he get another with the same core? Another question: Do two wands have to be from the same individual animal to be "brothers"? -- In other words, if Harry and Voldy's wands had come from *different* Phoenixes, would Priori Incantatum still have happened?>> We know that Ron's original wand (Charlie's old wand) had a unicorn hair core because he was poking the hair back into the core on the Hogwarts express in Stone. That wand had clearly been through the wars and it's no wonder Charlie replaced it before going off to work with dragons. Ron's own wand was purchased at the beginning of Prisoner and he was showing it off to Harry as soon as they met up. It was also a unicorn hair wand. We are given the impression from Mr Ollivander's speech to Harry that unicorn hair is the best core for Charms work. All of the Weasleys appear to be very strong at Charms, leading me to suspect that most of them probably are using unicorn hair cored wands. And, yes, in order for two (or more) wands to be "brothers" the cores must be taken from the same animal. Olivander states quite clearly that he ONLY uses unicorn hair, phoenix feather and dragon heartstring cores in his wands, which means that there are a lot of each of them out there. If all that was necessary was for the cores to be of the same type there would be Priori Incantitums going off just about whenever two wizards had an argument. If Harry and Voldemort's wands' cores had come from two different phoenixes, at best we would have seen a repeat of the duel with Draco in the corridor of Hogwarts with the spells coliding and richocheting in different directions. At worst (and given that AK is "unblockable") the AK would have overridden the Expeliarmus and gotten Harry if he didn't get out of its way in time. Now, what we DON'T know is whether Olivander is the ONLY wand maker in Brittan or whetrher he is just the one in Diagon Alley that Hagrid took Harry to. There is a good chance that his establishment is the oldest, but we have no information as to whether he is the only one. (That he was the "expert witness" called in to perform the Weighing of the Wands for the Tri-Wizard Tournement only establishes that he and Dumbledore have some degree of association, which was further confirmed by Dumbledore's statement that Olivander had alerted him when Harry was chosen by the second Fawkes wand.) -JOdel From jodel at aol.com Mon Sep 23 18:13:15 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 14:13:15 EDT Subject: Lucius Therories Message-ID: <26.2e3dfe69.2ac0b3bb@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44377 EmeralsxSnake writes; >>So what do you guys think about him? Personality? His occupation? Past? Is he having an affair with Snape?<< The theory with the widest degree of controversy is related to just how old Lucius is. The animosity displayed in the Flourish and Blotts scene in Chamber of Secrets is so clearly "personal" that it gives a strong hint of there being a long history between him and Arthur Weasley. I could easily see him and Arthur being the major Gryffandor-Slytherin rivals of their mutual years in Hogwarts (with Arthur narrowly beating Lucius out for the honor of being Head Boy.) Another hint of this is the fact that Draco starts spitting slurs at the whole Weasley family the minute he lays eyes on Ron on the Hogwarts express. This all had to come from somewhere. We have absolutely no reason to assume that the Burrow is placed anywhere where the Malfoys would be required to have any interaction with the Weasleys, so it is unlikely that Draco has ever met Ron before. Clearly Draco has been sent off to school well-primed by fulminations regarding penniless redheads who breed like rabbits from his father (who he clearly idolises). One glance at shabby, red-headed Ron is enough to identify him as "the enemy". On the other hand, most fanon writers who produce marauder-era fics seem to be determined to put him into the same year as Snape. I don't believe it for a minute, but it has made for some fine stories, whether dramatic or comic. As to his circunstances; I can see the Malfoys as being one of those families who have been living on the procedes of their investments for generations. Once a fortune reaches a certain level, the holder's primary job is managing their money, no other occupation is necessary. Lucius is at least the second or third head of the Malfoy family who has been in the "business" of money farming. Possibly more like 5th, 6th or 7th. Or even more. Farming his money is his primary occupation. The secondary one is to farm influence (which, of course, protects the sources of your money). To this end he has a finger in just about every pie worth the baking in the British (and international) WW. This brings with it any number of advantages. For one thing, natural-born toadies in high places, like Fudge, are easily guided to follow policies which further Lucius's adgenda. A reasonable "donation" here and there and some judcious flattery and Fudge, even if he is not "ever-so-evil" is eating out of his hand. (Fudge, as any reader will notice, is second in the cast of characters only to Draco in his habit of quoting "the world according to Lucius Malfoy".) For the record; I believe that Malfoy put Fudge where he is and doesn't let him forget it. Fudge, for his part, is a lot cleverer than he comes across and uses that fussy, bumbling manner to disarm critics (much as Peter Pettigrew uses his cowering little wimp mode to deflect his enemies). The only uncertainty is just how aware Fudge is on exactly whose purposes he is serving. He is not unaware of Lucius's sympathies, and shares them. For another thing, the right donations to the right worthy causes gets you a place on the BoD and into a position to set policy. We know that Lucius managed to elude justice in the Voldemort trials by convincing the Court (and had he purchased that Court? Even under Crouch Sr?) that he had acted under force of the Imperius curse during the war and could not have been held accoutable for any actions he had performed during the war because of this. Again for the Record; I believe that in the absence of Hogwarts graduates who have been formally trained in Dark Arts theory (which has been the case ever since Dumbledore became Headmaster at least, and may have been the case even earlier) the Ministry of Magic must officially engage the services from a short list of trusted Dark Arts consultants when a situation calls for it. Lucius Malfoy, possibly before he became head of the Malfoy family, was one of these consultants. Consequently, a strong case could be made that he would have been one of the first people that Volemort wanted under control, both for the sake his position and to limit the potential damage he might have done to Voldemort's cause had he been allowed to continue to opperate independently. (The claim was manifestly untrue, bit it would have been easily believed by a wizarding world primed by the articles covering the trial in the Daily Prophet. Did I mention that there was a Malfoy on the BoD of the Prophet?) As for Narcissia; This is one of my own theories. Narcissia is MUCH younger than Lucius, who, unlike Arthur, did not marry until he was around the age of 40, after a decade or two of being one of the WW's most "eligible" bachelors. In fact, she IS from the Marauder's generation, although possibly not from the same year. Despite her strong resemblance to the classic "trophy wife", she was actually by family basckground and fortune a very reasonable match for Lucius, and there may even have been formal arangements to that effect on the part of their families. And, it was during the period that Lucius was "courting" Narcissia that he (already one of Voldemort's followers) recieved such information regarding her schoolmates which led him (over the next couple of years) to recruit some of the more promising of the new alumni. Snape among them. They, for their part were understandably impressed by the fact that so important a public figure as Lucius Malfoy should be taking such an interest in *them*. He is proud of, and rather coldly fond of Draco, indulges him, but holds him to high standards. And he is not impressed by whining and general brattiness. He is not abusive, but somewhat remote and does not hesitate to coldy depress the boy's pretentions. Consequently Draco's chief ambition is to impress his father. He is demonstrably cold, calculating and clever. And not notably delusional. He MAY possibly intend to use Voldemort to attain further his own ends and is engaged in investigating a possible way to surplant him once the WW has been taken. He may well view their association as an "alliance" rather than an "alegiance". Voldemort just might also. We did not see Malfoy groveling at his feet in the graveyard. Voldemort, in return may intend to dispense with Lucius as soon as the WW is securely his. As to affairs; Lucius comes from the kind of social level which traditionally kept mistresses. There may very well be some discrete, bijou residence for which Malfoy is paying the household accounts about which Narcissa is not "officially" aware. The objects of such liasons were traditionally chosen for their status value rather than any great degree of affection and discarded as soon as the "patron" became dissatisfied. Since I am postulating that Lucius is anything up to 20 or so years older than his wife, he would likely have been well accustomed to making such arangements. As to Snape; The WW is a very small society. In such societies, particularly in a subset which is obsessed with their bloodlines, everybody tends to be related to just about everybody else. Snape (if he is a pureblood from the same general socal group as Malfoy) is probably some degree of cousin either to Lucius or Narcissia, and quite possibly both. Personal Theory (which is shared by more than one fanfic writer, apparantly); Purebloods come in a couple of different varieties within the WW. There are the "noble" purebloods like the Malfoys and their set and there are "plebian" purebloods like the Weasleys. (Rather like rich WASPs and poor WASPs) The plebian variety are to a large degree the decendents of the retainers of the noble sort. Somewhere in the dim and misty distance the Muggle-born ancestors of the plebes were "discovered" and educated by the "great house" with the understanding that they would serve them. They often share their "masters'" prejudices and are even nastier about upholding them. This kind of class system was not as strong as its equivalent in the outer Muggle society, but it never quite went away. With the increasing incidence of Muggle-borns as a result of the enclosure acts of the early 19th century, even more of the distinction between the noble families and those of plebian but pureblood families has become somewhat less important. (Although far from ignored.) The upper echelon of the MoM of course is a bastion of the plebian purebolood. Of course in some cases, such as with the Weasleys, it seems largely a matter of chance that they even ARE still purebloods by this point in time. It seems unlikely that all of Arthur and Molly's grandchildren will all be regarded as such by the hoity-toity set that measures and categorises such things. (and much Arthur and Molly will care about their opinions, anyway. They will love their own "little brown ones" just as much.) -JOdel From jtdogberry at hotmail.com Mon Sep 23 18:31:17 2002 From: jtdogberry at hotmail.com (jtdogberry) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 18:31:17 -0000 Subject: Neville's Temptation with Power and NINE( and was Re: Any Lucius theories?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44378 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Fyre Wood" wrote: > I originally posted this as a random thought: > > > > > One last random thought: > > > Neville is NOT evil. > > > > Ezzie Replied with this: > > One question on this topic, which is off topic. If Neville was > > standing in the chamber at the end of PS/SS and Voldemort said > > to him "Join me. Together we'll bring back your parents." What > > do you think Neville would do? > > I think he'd give old snake face a big thumbs up. > > > Fyre Wood Replies: > While still being the ring leader for the organization of N.I.N.E > (Neville is NOT evil), I still agree with your statement of giving > the thumbs up. *SNIP* > If Neville had the opportunity to being them back, I think he would. > He wouldn't do it for the Power or Glory that Voldy is promising him, > but rather for the opportunity for him to sit down with his parents > one day and have them ask, "How was your term?" or hear the words, "I > Love You!" from his mother's lips. > > When put in this perspective, one can only see that it would happen > this way. Neville longs for his parents and to be accepted. If Voldy > could give him that, I think he'd do it--but would hate the > consiquences of having to do Voldy's bidding. > Dogberry (ME) Just turn this about a bit, In the situation that Voldie offered to bring back Neville's parents in return for loyal service, I think Neville would tell him where to go but... Going with Neville is looking for acceptence as well. If Voldie was to say "join me I will be a father to you, you will be the son I never had" and the usual of undying affection, pride etc, it may appeal him but again, I have every confidence in Neville to tell him where to go but if said after being tortured or bullied by people he considered friends, it would be much harder. Just a bit of a side note, if Neville's parents were to return to normal, how what that effected all concerned. His parents would have missed him grow up and they would be strangers to each other. I think it would be very difficult to ajust to that. TTFN Dogberry From crussell at arkansas.net Mon Sep 23 18:53:17 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 18:53:17 -0000 Subject: Lucius Therories In-Reply-To: <26.2e3dfe69.2ac0b3bb@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44379 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jodel at a... wrote: >Another hint of this is the fact that Draco starts spitting slurs at the whole Weasley family the minute he lays eyes on Ron on the Hogwarts express. This all had to come from somewhere. Clearly Draco has been sent off to school well-primed by fulminations regarding penniless redheads who breed like rabbits from his father (who he clearly idolises). One glance at shabby, red-headed Ron is enough to identify him as "the enemy". > > -JOdel Your theory concerning Lucius and Arthur's past relationship would explain a lot. And when you said all of Draco's venom had to come from somewhere, I agree. But perhaps, IMO, it is merely based on Arthur's obvious fascination with muggles for whom Lucius has such an obvious abhorance. In other words, Lucius and Arthur could have very well attended school together and formed not too positive opinions about each other, but IMO, the main bug in Lucius' bonnet is Arthur's willingness to befriend muggles and muggle-borns (the very quality I most admire in the Weasleys). I believe that Draco is a just a smaller but just as venemous version of his father. His comments regarding Hermione make me absolutely sick. He is obviously parroting his father but this does not give him the right to be so despicably cruel. I know there are those out there who seek to justify Draco's and Lucius' behavior. IMO, there is no justification for one child (Draco) to actually wish for the death of another child (Hermione) based on her muggle-born status. I know this thread concerns Lucius but as I stated above Draco is a reflection of his father. In other words, in this case, the acorn does not fall far from the tree. bugaloo37 From fun_n_games_2663 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 23 18:43:31 2002 From: fun_n_games_2663 at yahoo.com (fun_n_games_2663) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 18:43:31 -0000 Subject: Snape's DE past/ What is he up to? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44380 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sydney" wrote: > Just a quick note from a newbie-- like Eloise, I had formulated a > little theorie-ette to smooth over the difficulties of Snape's outing > at the tribunal. The only way I could make sense of this is by > assuming the trials were covered by some kind of secrecy > charm, rather like the Fidelius-- everyone in the court room knew > what happened, but where constrained from revealing it if the > subject was aquitted. > > The fly in this ointment though is the end of GoF, where Fudge > says (hang on, I'll go grab my book...) > > "'You are merely repeating the names of those who were > aquitted of being Death Eaters thirteen years ago!' said Fudge > angrily, "You could have found those names in old reports of the > trials!"' > > Any way around this? Is Fudge ever-so-evil, and knows perfectly > well that Harry couldn't have obtained these names that way? Is > he too hysterical to think clearly? Or is Snape's spying public > knowledge, and he merely dodges assasination attempts every > other Wednesday? > > > - Sydney, whose hobby is coming up with patches for Rowling's > gorgeous but rather buggy programming.... Being a lawyer, I thought that Karkaroff's testimony was more like a grand jury statement. That is, it is closed to the public because the tribunal is gathering evidence. Once the tribunal has gathered evidence, it would hold a trial, which would be public. You don't want the evidence gathering stage to be open to the public for a number of reasons--one of which is that an innocent person could be slandered without a trial. The Bagman hearing, however, was a trial. The trial would be open to the public, because that's when you can clear your name and the public can judge the fairness of the hearing. If I recall correctly, we only know that Rita Skeeter was at Bagman's hearing. "fun n' games" From eloiseherisson at aol.com Mon Sep 23 20:39:06 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 16:39:06 EDT Subject: Wand cores and Brit moans Message-ID: <17d.edc6c96.2ac0d5ea@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44381 Marina: > This really makes me wonder about phoenix feather wands. We've only > met one phoenix so far, Fawkes, and we were told he's only ever given > two feathers. Where are all the other phoenixes who are donating > their feathers to all the other wands? > > Very good question in a very funny post! Phoenixes seem a little more common in the Potterverse that in RL(!) mythology (ie there's more than one of them). But has anyone else noticed that in art, phoenixes seem to be represented with only two tail feathers anyway? Perhaps they have an annual moult - I think birds, or some birds, do, don't they? Otherwise you could only get the feathers shortly before they were about to burst into flames. How long does a phoenix live, anyway? I mean, how long is each incarnation? Of course, we've only seen two phoenix feather wands. Ollivander does say it's an unusual combination. Perhaps that's partly because phoenix feathers are so rare. Which in turn would make Harry and Voldemort having wands with cores from the *same* phoenix less of a coincidence. ................. BTW, off-topic and nothing to do with Marina whatsoever, I have this evening for the second time recently seen the name of my country spelled incorrectly. Please, folks, it's 'Britain' with only one 't' but *with* an 'i'. And another Brit point: Catlady kindly explained, in response to Ali's query, American usage of Lily Evans Potter. I am certain that Ali already understood as well as I did that this is an American custom. I think she was being a little subtle and rather English in her use of language. ;-) The point is that it is *not* normally a British custom. Sure, it happens sometimes, but more usually, Lily would either retain her own name, or adopt her husband's name. There *are* women who use both: I considered it myself, but it made an unfortunate alliteration. In an old-fashioned society, such as the WW, I would suggest that she would almost certainly take her husband's. But 'Lily Evans Potter' just doesn't sound British. Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From crussell at arkansas.net Mon Sep 23 21:15:39 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 21:15:39 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Temper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44382 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "c_voth312" wrote: > I'm willing to concede, though, that this could be an isolated > incident based in extreme psychological duress. I'm waiting to see > what happens between Sirius and Snape before passing final judgement-- > now THAT'S a powder keg just waiting to go off... > > ~Christi I could not agree with you more. Sirius and Snape are definitely two of a kind-so far as white-hot hostility is concerned. IMO, these two are not willing to budge an inch towards a real reconciliation. The handshake at the end of GoF was at best an acknowledgement (and a very small one at that) that the two of them must table their individual hostilities-for the time being- in order to work together. IMO, a down-deep forgiveness is simply not going to happen- no matter how close these two dynamos have to work together. Work together?-yes, I think they will have to. Become congenial towards each other?- never in a million years. bugaloo37-who is ready to talk about Sirius anytime!! From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Mon Sep 23 23:36:27 2002 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 23:36:27 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?It=92ll_Be_AK_(filk)?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44383 It'll Be AK (To the tune of Buddy Holly's That'll Be the Day) Dedicated to Lilac Hear the original at http://www.wtv-zone.com/ezegoinguy/Buddy.html The Scene: London, the Late 70s. VOLDEMORT, at the height of his reign of terror, sings of his deadly intentions to an intended victim VOLDEMORT Well, it'll be AK, and you'll say goodbye Yes, that'll be the way that I will apply You say you're gonna flee, but don't even try 'Cause it'll be AK, then you'll die Well you say that you're hatin' all my decimatin' `Cause my thugs and Eaters worship You-Know-Who Well, you know I love to juggle killin' wizards 'n' Muggles And one day, I'll get you too Well, it'll be AK, and you'll say goodbye Yes, that'll be the way that I will apply You say you're gonna flee, but don't even try 'Cause it'll be AK, then you'll die CHORUS OF DEATH EATERS Well, it'll be AK, and they'll say goodbye Yes, that'll be the way that he will apply They say they're gonna flee, but he's the bad guy For once he says AK, then they die VOLDEMORT Well, when Voldy made his Mark he made it really Dark And it's been such a lark, believe you me They try to implore me when I feel so stormy But I say, it's R.I.P. VOLDEMORT & CHORUS Well, it'll be AK, and you'll say goodbye Yes, that'll be the curse on which I rely You say you're gonna flee, hey, such a wise guy! 'Cause it'll be AK, then you'll die CHORUS Well, that'll be AK, woo hoo That'll be AK, woo hoo That'll be AK, woo hoo That'll be AK...... - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From myphilosophy2001 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 24 00:28:21 2002 From: myphilosophy2001 at yahoo.com (Moonstruck) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 17:28:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Magical Genetics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020924002821.48448.qmail@web20809.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44384 --- "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44385 I'm going to make a few general comments, more on the overal subject than to anyone specifically. It's alway been my feeling the pheonix wands were like the 'Royal' wands; very elite and rare. The match of wizard to a pheonix wand is as rare as the pheonix feathers themselves. From which you should obviously conclude that I think pheonix feathers are rare. Think how often and how easily we have seen unicorns in the story so far. I seems that Hagrid and other talented animal handlers can pretty much get a unicorn when ever they want one. So unicorn hair can't be all that hard to come by. Now dragon heart; Dragons are/can be over 50feet tall. As tall or slightly taller than a five story building, and they would logically seem to be physically strong creatures with great endurance. Assumptions I make from how much they weight and the fact that they can fly. Conclusion; dragons have big hearts, so one dead dragon equals a LOT of wizard wands. Pheonix feather; this is my theory, I can't really support it with canon, but it is my intuitive sense of the nature of pheonix and their feathers. Pheonix feathers are rare because pheonix are rare. They are elusive creatures that don't take to human in general, and the grandest most desired pheonix seem to come from very remote and exotic locations. Next, and this part is my theory, a pheonix can only give up a feather voluntarily. Only these feathers can be used for wands. A feather that molts or one taken by force will be destory on the bird's burning day. Although, I have heard of pheonix life spans ranging from 500 to 1700 years, so the time between burning days is pretty long, and that kind of weakens my theory. In addition to this, it is my purely unfounded theory that when a pheonix gives up a feather, that feather is lost forever, so they are not real eager to give them up. Final conclusion; pheonix feather are relatively rare and the wizards who match them are also very rare. Unanswered pheonix questions: Does it have to be a whole feather? I seems like the tail feathers are very long, substatially longer than a wand, so could one long tail feather be cut into two or three pieces to make more than one wand? Don't know. And if a tail feather is substantially longer than a typical wand, how does Ollivander cram all that feather into the wand? Magic, I guess? Next, Does it have to be a TAIL feather? Could a pheonix give a minor feather, say one that is 3 or 4 inches long, and could a successful wand be made from one of these minor feathers? Or does a minor feather equal a lesser wand? To all of the above; I don't know. Other wand cores: Wow, tough question. It must be possible to use other creatures, but which ones? Richelle Votaw gave a nice long list of creatures. I looked in an on-line encyclopidia of magical & mythical creature to see if I could find more. Trying to decide which are suitable isn't an easy task. I assume it has to be a sufficiently magical creature. Centaurs and merpeople are certainly magical in our sense of wonderment, but they do not seem to be creature of great magical ability or power. So they are probably out. Certainly you wouldn't want an evil creature, so banshee or other creature associated with death or evil would be out. Billywig stings while making great candy, probably aren't up to the task. So how about fairy wings or elf hair? Certainly elves are powerful magical creatures, and they don't seem to be all that rare. Maybe there is some incompatability between human magic and elfin body parts. I guess some of the less exotic more common Euro-pheonixes might be OK but they don't seem to have the same magical power as the Asian pheonix. (although, I can't prove that.) I guess my only real comment on alternative magical creature wand cores is that, after searching for hours, I found it almost impossible to determine which creatures really had any potential. Obviously, I would make a lousy wand maker. So while these comments probably only add up to a penny and halfs worth, they are none the less my penny and halfs worth. Thanks for your indulgence. bboy_mn From siskiou at earthlink.net Tue Sep 24 02:12:38 2002 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 19:12:38 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wand cores -Random Thoughts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4029438069.20020923191238@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 44386 Hi, Monday, September 23, 2002, 6:48:44 PM, Steve wrote: > In addition to this, it is my purely unfounded > theory that when a pheonix gives up a feather, that feather is lost > forever, so they are not real eager to give them up. Final conclusion; > pheonix feather are relatively rare and the wizards who match them are > also very rare. Hm... So, you think a phoenix *decides* to give up a rare feather every now and then, but dragon heart string comes from dead dragons? And unicorns could just have their hair plucked out, or you could get a whole bunch from a dead one, so they are a dime a dozen? I guess it's possible, but I'm not sure I like this theory . I tend to think the person who wields the wand has a lot more to do with it's power than the wand itself, but I might be proven wrong very soon. What kind of wand does Dumbledore have? Do we know? -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Sep 24 03:13:06 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 03:13:06 -0000 Subject: Wand cores -Random Thoughts In-Reply-To: <4029438069.20020923191238@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44387 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Susanne wrote: > > > Hi, > > Monday, September 23, 2002, 6:48:44 PM, Steve (bboy_mn) wrote: > > > In addition to this, it is my purely unfounded theory that > > when a pheonix gives up a feather, that feather is lost > > forever, so they are not real eager to give them up. > > Final conclusion; pheonix feather are relatively rare and > > the wizards who match them are also very rare. Susanne Said with a : > > Hm... > > So, you think a phoenix *decides* to give up a rare feather > every now and then, but dragon heart string comes from dead > dragons? > bboy_mn replies in part: Well, I did say it was an unfounded theory, and it does have a small whole or two in it, but I'm trying to establish that pheonix feathers are rare, and that theory certainly does it. Now consider that pheonix tail feathers are capable of lifting 300 to 500 pounds (Harry, Ron, Ginny, & Lockhart, and very easily), I wouldn't think they would not be that easy to pull out. Again, maybe it doesn't have to be a TAIL feather, maybe any feather of any size will do. Dagon heart from a dead dragon? Ummmm.... How else would you get a piece of a dragon's heart? Unless dragon's heart string means something that is not obvious. Still a dragon has to have a huge heart, and clearly dragon's hide and dragon's liver are readily available, so why not dragon heart. Although, it seems logical that heart string is a smaller piece of the heart, and it's not clear how many strings come from one heart. -END- this part bboy_mn > And unicorns could just have their hair plucked out, or you > could get a whole bunch from a dead one, so they are a dime > a dozen? bboy_mn replies in part: Well, maybe a dollar a dozen. Ollivander said Cedric's wands unicorn hair was plucked from a particularly magnificent male that almost gored him. (not a direct quote). So if Hagrid and Grubbleplank or whatever the substitute magical creatures teacher was named, can both get unicorns on demand, it's not that hard. I will acknowledge that it takes a very special and very skilled person to do it, but we've already seen 3 or 4 unicorns, and saw them up close and personal. I wouldn't think hair from a dead unicorn would be good. I would think that that would be somewhat cursed. I suppose if it died of natural causes it might be OK, but I don't think I would want a hair plucked from a dead unicorn (too creepy). That brings up the question, does it have to be a whole plucked hair, or could you just trim some hair off the tail and mane? Don't know. -END- this part > > I guess it's possible, but I'm not sure I like this theory > . bboy_mn responds in part: Well, it is just a theory, but I'm confident that future books will prove this or a somewhat similar theory to be true. Can I prove that? Well NO. -End- this part > > I tend to think the person who wields the wand has a lot > more to do with it's power than the wand itself, but I might > be proven wrong very soon. bboy_mn responds in part: I agree with you 100%, the real power comes from the wizard. But the wizard and his wand have to be in harmony to maximize his/her power. Any wizard can use any wand, but to get the best results, they have to use a wand with which they have a magical harmonic resonance. I believe that's how the wand chooses the wizard. A particular combination of wood and core establish a magical harmony or resonance. When a wizard with a matching resonance picks up the wand, that resonance cause them to re-enforce each other. It's like the opera singer who can break a glass with her voice, but to do it, she/he has to hit a note that is at the same resonant frequency as the glass. When that happens, the vibration in the glass become so extreme that the glass shatters. Just and example of the power of harmony and resonance. There are other example where this resonant effect establishes that the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts. -END- this part > > What kind of wand does Dumbledore have? Do we know? > > -- > Best regards, > Susanne bboy_mn final ends with: Dumbledore's wand? I don't think we know, but I suspect we will find out in this next book. There is a theory (not mine but I like it) that the Order of the Pheonix is really about wizard wands all sharing a Fawkes cores which will be used to fight Big_V. Nothing earth shattering; just a few more random thoughts. bboy_mn From stevebinch at hotmail.com Mon Sep 23 21:43:50 2002 From: stevebinch at hotmail.com (stevebinch) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 21:43:50 -0000 Subject: Snape/Petunia Connection [was Snape's "Mind Set"] Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44388 Jessica wrote: >>>>>Consider this: >"SNAPE" and "EVANS" are essentially the same name >rearranged, minus the "P" in "SNAPE" and the "V" in >"EVANS," conveniently enough, however, the "P" in >"SNAPE" can be found in "PETUNIA" and the "V" in >"EVANS" can be found in "SEVERUS." >....just as "TOM >MARVOLO RIDDLE" is a rearrangement of the phrase "I AM >LORD VOLDEMORT."<<<<< I write: I think that you've got something there. Have you ever noticed how Petunia and Snape are never in the same place at the same time? (Evil laugh, hoo hoo hoo ha a a haa). No, but seriously, what if Snape and Petunia were siblings or at least cousins. That would make Snape and Lily relatives. If this were the case, then perhaps Snape's dislike for James was based on a protectiveness he has for Lily, his little sister or cousin. That would also give James a motive for saving Snape's life (because Snape would be James's girlfriend's brother or cousin). That would also explain why Snape seems to love and hate Harry. As Harry's uncle, Snape feels like he must watch over Harry. At the same time, because Harry reminds Snape so much of James, Snape dislikes Harry. Just a theory -Steve B From i_am_erasmas at yahoo.ca Tue Sep 24 03:47:21 2002 From: i_am_erasmas at yahoo.ca (i_am_erasmas) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 03:47:21 -0000 Subject: Any Lucius theories? Old money In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44389 ezzie wrote: > I get the feeling that the Malfoy family has a great deal of money > from being an old family. Draco has that sort of upper class, > well educated, well connected feel about him. Sort of like the > snobby upper class kids that go to schools in the real world. > Malfoy's connections are referred to many times in the books: > But what is the basis of old money in the wizarding world? The Lucius types in the muggle world are generally big land owners, and collect their money from rents. I'm sure this has been discussed by I feel the basis of wizarding economy is recovery of muggle treasures (I've always thought Gringotts has a big presence in the Caribean as well as Egypt and that galleons are called galleons because most of them are recovered from sunken spanish galleons). So, I would think old money in the wizarding world would be either from holding shares in Gringotts or other established wizard businesses. I think Lucius hold favour with Voldemort because of his pull in the ministry, and that he also has connections that are useful for swaying public opinion. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that the Malfoys have a controlling interest in The Daily Prophet and the WWN. Control of the media would partly explain why Fudge and other ministry officials (eg. disposal of magical creatures). These ideas don't really have much of a basis in canon but they would explain how the forces of evil seem to have such persistence in the corridors of power, despite the attrocities that occured in Voldemort's first rise. Erasmas From siskiou at earthlink.net Tue Sep 24 04:02:12 2002 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 21:02:12 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wand cores -Random Thoughts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <631564453.20020923210212@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 44390 Hi, Monday, September 23, 2002, 8:13:06 PM, Steve wrote: > Dagon heart from a dead dragon? Ummmm.... How else would you get a > piece of a dragon's heart? Unless dragon's heart string means > something that is not obvious. I wasn't clear there, but I thought maybe a dragon would *agree to sacrifice itself* for wand purposes, making dragon heart string pretty darn special, too. Same with the unicorn. I wonder if there is a difference in the cores between the *freely given* and the *forcefully taken*. > There is a theory (not mine but I like it) that > the Order of the Pheonix is really about wizard wands all sharing a > Fawkes cores which will be used to fight Big_V. But that would mean that Fawkes gave more than the two previously mentioned feathers, unless Olivander is wrong, or the theory about other than tail feathers being used is right . Hopefully we'll find out a bit more soon! -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From elfundeb at comcast.net Tue Sep 24 04:30:59 2002 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 00:30:59 -0400 Subject: Hermione and The Winter's Tale Message-ID: <00c101c26383$2efb9360$3a3b3244@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 44391 A couple of weeks ago I saw a production of Shakespeare's The Winter's Tale, which I had neither seen nor read before. I was very curious about the character Hermione, because this is the play which JKR has stated was the source of Hermione's name. JKR stated in one interview (http://www.magicalharrypotter.com/TodayShow.html) that she chose it because she *just* liked the name (emphasis mine). And according to the Lexicon, JKR stated in an earlier interview (that I cannot find) that the two characters are not at all similar. But that's not what I saw in Shakespeare's play. Though The Winter's Tale began by Shakespeare's Hermione acting in a coquettish fashion most unlike JKR's Hermione, as the play progressed, little parallels in plot and character absolutely leapt out at me, and since this isn't one of Shakespeare's more popular plays, I thought I'd go ahead and post them. For example: 1. Shakespeare's Hermione, a Queen of Sicilia, is accused of treason by adultery, by her irrationally jealous and insecure husband, Leontes. Surely JKR must have had Leontes' accusations in mind when she wrote the following Yule Ball dialogue: "He's from Durmstrang!" spat Ron. "He's competing against Harry! Against Hogwarts! You -- you're --" Ron was obviously casting around for words strong enough to describe Hermione's crime, "fraternizing with the enemy, that's what you're doing!" (That JKR might have put just a little bit of Leontes into Ron's character also occurred to me, though my focus here is Hermione.) 2. Hermione is tried and convicted for her *crime* and Leontes ignores an oracle proclaiming her innocence. Their son dies and Hermione collapses and is presumed dead; Leontes repents, plunging into a lifetime of penitence for his foolish rage. In the last scene, Leontes is shown a "statue" of Hermione, properly aged to reflect the 16 years since her presumptive death. But there's been a curse, and as the curse has just been lifted by the return of L&H's long-lost daughter, Hermione comes to life. An apparently dead person appears in a statue-like form and is restored to life when the curse is reversed? Sounds a lot like being petrified by a basilisk to me. And indeed, Colin Creevey in petrified form is described as "a statue" at least three times in a page and a half (CoS ch. 10). 3. Then there's Hermione's character. Even in the face of false accusations, Shakespeare's Hermione bears herself with dignity and honor, bearing witness to the truth. She does not denigrate or show disloyalty to her tyrannical and irrational husband, though she would appear justified in so doing. Likewise, JKR's Hermione shows unusual strength of character for a young girl. She is willing to stand alone for what she thinks is right, as she does in her lonesome campaign for House-Elf rights, in her refusal to apologize for her decision to tell McGonagall about the Firebolt in spite of the rift it caused between her and her two best friend, and in her willingness to break rules -- but only for a higher cause. The two Hermiones may not have the same personality, but IMO they do share much in their strength of character. So, JKR chose the name Hermione because she *just* liked the name? Yeah, right. Though I've long suspected it, this seems to me to be just one more clue that JKR's interviews are intended to obfuscate and confuse, and that her every word should be taken with a grain of salt. A very large grain. Debbie, who's now beginning to wonder whether there's a story behind the English village of Snape. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From grega126 at aol.com Tue Sep 24 06:17:44 2002 From: grega126 at aol.com (greg_a126) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 06:17:44 -0000 Subject: Wands and Sorting In-Reply-To: <008801c261dc$70704320$619ccdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44392 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > I've been doing some speculating on possible wand cores. First, the wand cores we know of (please add if I've forgotten anything): > > Unicorn hair (Ron and Cedric) > Veela hair (Fleur Delacour) > Dragon heartstring (Viktor Krum) > Phoenix feather (Harry and Tom Riddle/Voldemort) > Unicorns are the purest beasts on the planet. I remember a discussion about wands from a few months ago, where it was decided that Dragon Heartstrings require the death of the Dragon. With this, I'd like to propose the idea that wands are often a pre- Hogwarts sorting. Can anyone imagine Lucius Malfoy or any of the rest of Voldemort's henchemen using a wand with part of a unicorn in it to murder, torture and do dark magic? Conversely, can anyone imagine kind hearted Dumbledore, or Molly Weasley using a wand that required the killing of a magical creature? I do see this as working in most cases, but not an absolute. I wouldn't rule out a unicorn tail hair inside Wormtail's wand, nor would I rule out Dragon Heartstring for Snape, and I think Victor's definately going to do something positive to help win the war, but I do think it can reflect tendencies. Just as all Slytherins aren't evil and all Gryffindors aren't good (Pettigrew again), it shows tendencies. Where does Harry, Voldemort & their Phoenix feathers fit into this? I see the phoenix feather as a "could go either way." Just as Harry isn't completely good, part of him was calling out to be in Slytherin, he chose his side. And I think 50 years earlier, Tom Riddle was the same way. He still had some good in him, but he made his decision. Thoughts? Greg From anglinsbees at yahoo.com Tue Sep 24 08:56:18 2002 From: anglinsbees at yahoo.com (Ellen & John Anglin) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 08:56:18 -0000 Subject: Slytherin Fight Song(FILK) Plus a Challenge! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44393 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Gail Bohacek" wrote: > Hufflepuff Fight Song > (a FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _The Victors_) Hrmph!. Well!. If the Hufflepuffs have grabbed the U of M fight song, then I guess it's only right for me to suggest the Michigan State University fight song for the Slytherins- after all, the colors are most appropriate... (Well UofM has Gold as one of thir colors, and Badgers and Wolverines are pretty durn similar. Now what does that say about snakes and Spartans?) Slytherin Fight song (To the tune of the MSU Fight song) In the hallowed halls of Hogwarts, Is a house that's known to all; Its specialty is winning, And the Hiss it's battle call Slytherin teams are never beaten, Our lust for victory is keen; Fighting for the only colors, Silver and Green. Grab a win for Slytherin, Watch the points keep growing. Slytherin teams are bound to win, They're fighting with a vim. RAH! RAH! RAH! See their team is weakening, We're going to win this game. Fight! Fight! Rah! Team, Fight! Victory for Slytherin!. There. Now, can anyone come up with suitable songs/ corresponding schools for Griffindor and Ravenclaw? Ellen the Pottering Beekeeper & MSU Graduate (It an Agricultural School...) (And I did study Beekeeping while there.) From daharja at bigpond.net.au Tue Sep 24 03:53:15 2002 From: daharja at bigpond.net.au (Leanne Daharja Veitch) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 13:53:15 +1000 Subject: Marvolo-Lockhart-Color Symbolism References: <1032775370.33116.62927.m9@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <3D8FE1AA.8101C8AB@bigpond.net.au> No: HPFGUIDX 44394 Eloise wrote: << And that red, green, blue and yellow are intended to stand forth as simple primary colors (although green isn't really a primary) that are distinctive (snip) So it's not true period heraldry, but more symbolic, >> I think, apart from the elemental symbolism, these colours are also used for the simple fact that they are traditional 'house' colours at public schools. Every school I went to (with the exception of one) used the four colours as house sports colours for the different houses. So it makes sense from the traditional 'school story' point of view. Catlady responded to Eloise's post with: <> Actually, water is more commonly associated with emotion, rather than outright deviousness. But certainly our emotions are a leading *cause* of deviousness. Slytherins are seen as unreliable (or devious) because they do 'anything to achieve their ends' - in other words, their emotions (what they want) are what drives them. However, where the colour sysmbolism gets really interesting is when you look at the *subsidiary* colours for the two houses, Gryffindor and Slytherin (I'm leaving Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw out of this for a second). Gryffindor are red and *gold*, Slytherin are green and *silver*. Interestingly, not only is Slytherin associated with emotion and unreliability, but with *silver*, which is the colour traditionally representative of the female aspect in Pagan symbolism (and in the symbolism of several other religions). Gryffindor, however, is associated clearly with *chivalry* and the colour *gold*, which represents the male aspect in Paganism. For me, at least, this is clearly associating Gryffindor with maleness, and Slytherin with femaleness. Even the two symbolic animals - the Lion and Snake - are representative of male and female. The Snake is associated throughout Western (esp Greek and old testament/Hebrew) mythology with femaleness. So does this mean that, psychologically speaking, the battle between Gryffindor and Slytherin is little more than a battle of the sexes? And why has JKR portrayed Slytherin as so evil when she herself is female? Furthermore, why have the houses founded by women (Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw) taken a very secondary role throughout the books? Up until Cedric Diggory, very few students from either house (if any, arguably) were portrayed with any level of detail. Even Harry's would-be love interest, Cho Chang, is little more than a caricature. Finally, is JKR aware of the sexual bias in her books and is it intentional? Personally, she striked me as a very intelligent writer, and I've no doubt she is fully aware of the sexism inherent in HP. But (to be totally cynical) she's also aware that you don't make money outside the status quo. Daharja XXX From foilist101 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 24 03:55:49 2002 From: foilist101 at yahoo.com (foilist101) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 03:55:49 -0000 Subject: Neville and his parents (was: Any Lucius theories?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44395 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > I lean against. One of the few things that has been established > about Neville's character is that he has a strong sense of > integrity. I think he'll do fine if tempted by Voldemort, whether by > a promise to restore his parents to normality or anything else. > Time, of course, will tell . . . > > I must point out that it is only in the imagination of Steven Kloves > bring back his parents (and there's no indication that Harry's > that Voldemort tempts *anyone* with the return of his parents. JKR, > thank goodness, wrote nothing so trite. Voldemort urges Harry to > join him, but all he offers him is to spare his own life, not to > tempted even to buy his life with the Stone). > > Constantly vigilant in guarding the wall between Canon and the CTMNBN, > > Amy Z One thing to remember is that Neville and Harry differ in that Neville's parents are still alive. It's probably worse for Neville to be able to visit his parents at the hospital and not have them recognize him that to simply have parents who are deceased. For him, it's something that he has to deal with constantly and revisit. Harry, on the other hand, while he has suffered a great deal as an orphan, can accept that fact and move on. By the way, this is my first post here, and a few quick words to introduce myself: I'm Kevin, from MIT in Cambridge. I'm a regular poster at other boards including AI Dreamworks SKG, jwfan.net, and HP Cinescape. From myphilosophy2001 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 24 05:54:45 2002 From: myphilosophy2001 at yahoo.com (Moonstruck) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 22:54:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione and The Winter's Tale In-Reply-To: <00c101c26383$2efb9360$3a3b3244@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> Message-ID: <20020924055445.99971.qmail@web20804.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44396 >So, JKR chose the name Hermione because she *just* > liked the name? Yeah, right. I don't believe for a second JKR chose the name Hermione just because she *liked* it. There are clearly many ways in which Shakespeare's Hermione mirrors *our* Hermione. I find the plot of the play most interesting, though and I think it provides a glimpse into the future of the HP books. > 1. Shakespeare's Hermione, a Queen of Sicilia, is > accused of treason by adultery, by her irrationally > jealous and insecure husband, Leontes. Surely JKR > must have had Leontes' accusations in mind when she > wrote the following Yule Ball dialogue: > > "He's from Durmstrang!" spat Ron. "He's competing > against Harry! Against Hogwarts! You -- you're --" > Ron was obviously casting around for words strong > enough to describe Hermione's crime, "fraternizing > with the enemy, that's what you're doing!" All right...I agree with the inevitability of a triangle involving at least Ron and Hermione, but I don't think Krum is going to be the other man. In the Winter's Tale Leontes has invited his *best friend* from school/youth, Polixenes, to come visit his kingdom and -- more importantly, to Leontes -- meet Leontes' beloved wife, Hermione. Polixenes does visit and the three (L-H-P) get along famously. When Poli prepares to go, Leo does everything he can to persuade him to stay. It is Hermione, under the wishes of Leo, who finally convinces Poli to extend his stay. For some reason, Leo misconstrues this as an indication that Poli and Hermione are having an affair. It's a completely irrational assumption, but he gets his knickers all in a twist and loses it, prosecuting his wife for adultery. This fits perfectly with the plotlines left hanging after GoF. Obviously, Ron and Hermione have developed feelings for one another. Once Ron realizes he's smitten with Hermione, it's not too much of a stretch to assume he'll be very possessive of her. For Ron, Hermione will be, in a sense, his prize -- the one thing/person that's his and his alone, the person who gives him the attention he feels he deserves. Now in GoF, we know Hermione lavishes a great deal of attention and admiration on Harry. So much so that Krum suspects there's something going on between Harry and Hermione, which isn't true. We all ready know Ron has a predisposition of jealousy and spite toward Harry, who, like his brothers, always casts a shadow over Ron. In fact, Ron, like Leo, has a tendency toward irrationality -- running with an unproved notion to the point of explosion. I think Ron will, at some point, misinterpret Harry and Hermione's relationship the same way Krum does. Ron will see this perceived affair as the final straw in his frustrations with Harry. They'll have a terrible fight and quit speaking again. *Enter Voldemort* Ron will be at his most vulnerable at this point, making him an ideal victim of Voldie's evil schemes. The fact that he's HP's best friend will make him all the more appealing to Voldie. He'll strike Ron with the Cruciatus Curse (as so clearly foreshadowed in GoF) and use him to lure HP in to Voldie's hands. HP and Hermione will figure out why Ron's behavior has suddenly become so strange and and rescue Ron from Voldie's grasp. Ron will rejoin Harry and Hermione in the fight against Voldie. His brush with death will knock some sense into Ron and he'll begin to realize how his lack of self-esteem (and the envy that results from it) is dangerous to both himself and his loved ones. That's when we'll REALLY see Ron potential as a -- I think -- very powerful wizard. -Jessica ===== "Oh, I'll settle down with some old story/About a boy who's just like me/Thought there was love in everything and everyone/You're so naive!/After a while they always get it/They always reach a sorry end/Still it was worth it as I turned the pages solemnly, and then/With a winning smile, the boy/With naivety succeeds/At the final moment, I cried/I always cry at endings" - "Get Me Away From Here I'm Dying," Belle and Sebastian __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From potter76 at libero.it Tue Sep 24 10:08:50 2002 From: potter76 at libero.it (Rita) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 12:08:50 +0200 (ora legale Europa occ.) Subject: Fw: Re: [HPforGrownups] Snape's De past/Draco behaviour/ Message-ID: <3D9039B2.000004.47435@i3a2c5> No: HPFGUIDX 44397 Hello everybody! My name it's Rita, I'm Italian, 26, and writing my thesis on the HP saga, I came across your mailing list quite by chance and feel very lucky for it because reading your posts helps me a lot with getting the right kind of concentration to get into the books and write something sensible afterward!! I hope I won't make any mistakes in quoting/spelling/choice of words and the likes. So here's my contribution to a few topics lately discussed: -Who knows about Snape's past? That he was a DE doesn't seem to be common knowledge in the WW as Fudge reacts to the news (Parting of the Ways ch. in GF) in a surprised manner. As suggested, Karkaroff's hearing was probably not a 'public' thing and what Dumbl. said about Snape may well never have left that room. >> I would be a bit >> surprised if not even McGonagall knew, however. >Eloise: >Actually, I wouldn't. >I think it's quite likely that she does, but Dumbledore doesn't seem to >confide everything in her. here I agree with kel, I've got a feeling that McG was part of that 'old crowd' Dumbl. mentions and I guess that they were bound to know if they had a man in such an important position among Vold.'s people. Furthermore, she knows everything about Vold's return, as she was in Moody's office when Crouch jr 'confessed' and in the Hospital wing when Snape 'comes out' and she doesn't say a word to that. If Dumbl. didn't trust her he wouldn't have let her stay. >> > kel: > > > the few Slytherins that we actually know of >> > Eloise: > >> Again, I don't actually see evidence of that. Why would they know? It's not very clear from the post who wrote the following, but, by the way it's quoted, I guess it must have been kel, if not, I apologize to whoever was the author: >> I say: If most (possibly not all) of the students in Slytherin have DE >> parents, I would think that at least some of them would know Snape was a >> comrade of sorts, or at least know his name. >Eloise: >Do they know each other well? [cut] > The fewer that know each others identities, the better. There aren't that many of them (I'm not sure about >this - what is the accepted number of Voldemort's followers?), yet one of the >reasons for bearing the Dark Mark is to identify themselves to each other. >And they habitually wear hoods and masks when in DE mode, as well. It is true we have no evidence on this subject and Karkaroff says that there was secrecy among them and only Vold. knew who they were but if they didn't know each others, at least in small groups, how could they have organized the attack on the Muggles at the Cup? Wearing hoods and masks doesn't mean much,you can still know who's behind them, and actually you would need to in a meeting of a fair number, otherwise how would you address someone if you didn't know his/her name?They could have 'nicknames' but I guess we would have heard some of them if that's what JKR had meant.And about the Dark Mark couldn't it be a sign of 'distinction' besides a means of identification? something like " we're all members of this exclusive group and we have a tattoo to demonstrate it". Eloise: >I also don't think that we can assume that Slytherin Supporter of Lord >Voldemort. In fact I rather think that that may be a trap that JKR *wants* us to fall into. [cut] >No. I think that the DEs are Voldemort's inner circle. There may have been >widespread support for him amongst Slytherin families, but I don't think we >can assume that most of them were on the inside. I absolutely agree with both this points. too little people come to Vold when hen rises again to be all of his old supporters. ________________________________________________________________________ Bugaloo 37: >> I consider Draco to exemplify the absolutely worst aspects of human >> nature. He is a reflection, of course, of his father. He assesses >> people on their heritage and financial status.[cut] Melody: >> I think that is a bit harsh on Draco. While he is not one of my >> favorite characters, to say the least, I don't think his motives for > >hating Hermione and Ron are based solely on thier stations in life. > >I always felt Draco was more jealous of Ron and Hermione. If Draco > >had his way, he would be Harry's best friend and bask in the > >deflected glory that is the Harry juggernaut. Carol: >I have to agree with Bugaloo37. I don't deny that Draco is also jealous, >but I don't think that's his motivation. Even if it were, it wouldn't >excuse his obnoxious behavior. How one handles the less pleasurable >emotions in life is, IMO, a way to measure one's character. Draco >definitely comes up short here. Learning from his father, being jealous, >whatever his reason, he is still an example of the worst aspects of human >nature. Don't think me arrogant if I say this but I think that this discussion is a bit beside the point.JKR has taken the outmost care to show that Draco is a negative character, he's the snobbish bully of the school story tradition, because he's jealous, because he's not loved properly by his parents, you name it, but nothing makes much difference, he's still depicted as the 'bad' boy. Therefore I subscribe to anything Carol wrote in her reply: >I wouldn't classify his behavior as nice necessarily. It looked more to me >like he was bragging and showing off. [cut] >I wouldn't call it friendship that he offered either. It's more in line >with his bragging nature. He's showing off more. He's so important he >knows all the "right" wizard families. I don't recall that he went around >offering this advice to anyone else, so clearly he's motivated to do so for >Harry because ... well, because he's Harry. What a feather in his cap it >would be to have Harry Potter under his "tutelage." well, I hope I managed to make myself understood Love to all, R [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eloiseherisson at aol.com Tue Sep 24 13:03:07 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 09:03:07 EDT Subject: Color Symbolism, Snape's past Message-ID: <19a.934f847.2ac1bc8b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44398 daharja at bigpond.net.au writes: > Eloise wrote: > > << And that red, green, blue and yellow are intended to stand forth > as simple primary colors (although green isn't really a primary) that > are distinctive (snip) So it's not true period heraldry, but more > symbolic, >> > Not guilty! I didn't write that! (I know the attribution of these posts gets confusing). I don't do colour symbolism (actually, you can tell it's not me by the American spelling!), or heraldry or alchemy, or Wicca. I do Snape, Britishisms, Snape, etymology, Snape, British history, Snape, hedgehogs and Snape. Talking of whom, Rita (welcome Rita!): >>Eloise: >>Actually, I wouldn't. >>I think it's quite likely that she does, but Dumbledore doesn't seem to >>confide everything in her. > >here I agree with kel, I've got a feeling that McG was part of that 'old >crowd' Dumbl. mentions and I guess that they were bound to know if they had >a man in such an important position among Vold.'s people. Furthermore, she >knows everything about Vold's return, as she was in Moody's office when >Crouch jr 'confessed' and in the Hospital wing when Snape 'comes out' and >she doesn't say a word to that. If Dumbl. didn't trust her he wouldn't have >let her stay. I can't refute that, nor do I wish to. But I don't think it's clear. Being a member of 'the old crowd' (if she was) doesn't automatically mean that she knows about Snape's past. Sirius and Lupin *are* members of ' the old crowd', but they don't seem to know. I think is would have been imperative that as few people as possible knew his role, whether trusted or not. You see, I don't think *Snape* was one of 'the old crowd' as such. I believe that Dumbledore was the only one with whom he had contact and that although the others knew Dumbledore had spies, they didn't know who they were. We don't see McGonagall's reaction to Snape's dark mark, so we don't know whether she already knew, or whether her face registers shock or revulsion. Neither do we see Molly's or Bill's reactions, though I don't think they knew about it. In fact, even Sirius apparently doesn't react to it. And although McGonagall witnesses Crouch Jr's confession and Snape's 'coming out', Dumbledore doesn't let her witness Sirius' transformation, so he does seem to play some of his cards close to his chest. I dunno. Perhaps she knows, perhaps she doesn't. Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From crussell at arkansas.net Tue Sep 24 13:58:36 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 13:58:36 -0000 Subject: Color Symbolism, Snape's past In-Reply-To: <19a.934f847.2ac1bc8b@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44399 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., eloiseherisson at a... wrote: > And although McGonagall witnesses Crouch Jr's confession and Snape's 'coming out', Dumbledore doesn't let her witness Sirius' transformation, so he does seem to play some of his cards close to his chest. I dunno. Perhaps she knows, perhaps she doesn't. > > Eloise I definitely agree with the fact that Dumbledore does not reveal everything he knows-not even to McGonagall-who seems to be his closest ally at this point. In GoF, he asks Molly Weasley for their family's support, IMO, it seems, in order to reassure himself. I could, of course, be misinterpreting this scene. But it seems to me Dumbledore is in command and is assessing his troops as it were. As far as I know (please correct me, if I am wrong), Dumbledore has only mentioned having complete trust in two characters: Hagrid and strangely enough, Snape. What this implicit trust he has is based on- we have yet to find out. I know there is some disagreement out there concerning the extent of Dumbledore's abilities/knowledge but I tend to side with those who feel that what has been revealed about him is only the tip of the iceberg. bugaloo37 From beccablue42 at hotmail.com Tue Sep 24 12:51:42 2002 From: beccablue42 at hotmail.com (beccablue42) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 12:51:42 -0000 Subject: New Question and Answer thing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44400 Tired of lurking, I step in for the Q&A: --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "arcum42" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Fyre Wood" wrote: > > Okay, I've read a few posts asking for a new question and answer > > thing, so here we go =) > > > > 1.Do you think we'll ever go inside an Arithmacy class or perhaps > > any other classes we have yet to see? > > > I think Harry will probably change what classes he takes next year > with an eye to his surviving the next year, so hopefully we will... Agreed. Why didn't he and Ron swith out of Divination for year 4? Clearly they hate it! Or are you committed to your electives once you choose them? But Hermione dropped hers... > > 2. Do any of the pets in Harry Potter seem like they're not > *really* > > pets. > > > Trevor, and Mrs. Norris. > Crookshanks as well? > > 3. Name you favorite new organization with letters (Ie: N.I.N.E= > > Neville is not Evil) and try to come up with your own. > > > Favorite organization? Hmmm, I'm drawing a bit of a blank. How about > H.I.S.S., the Hug Innocent Slytherins Society? I submit HINDFEET (if it's not already taken): Hermione Is Not Destined For Emotional Ego-building Trophy-dom > > 4. Will Draco ever stop being oh so evil? > > > Well, I think things will come to a head either when he is due to > become a DE or shortly afterwards. I'd look for him to do a Snape on > us, likely with a bit of input from Snape himself. There is hope for all of us. Except maybe Pansy. > > 5. Predictions on the final chapter of book 7? > > I have so many ideas, but none that hold water. i prefer to be surprised. I maintain that Harry must live, however! > > 6. Ron and Hermione--Will they hook up? > > Again, Hermione is *not* an ego-boosting consolation prize! She is free to make her own decisions. Ron may like her, but the jury is still out on how she feels. > > 7. What's the deal with Wizard money? Does it collect interest? > I'd assume so, otherwise why would it be in a bank? > > Why is it so darn big and heavy? > Tradition. > > Why not paper money instead of coins? > > > With paper money it can lose value easier then coins, since the coins > have intrinsic worth in their materials even if something happens to > devalue the money. Paper is also likely easier to forge magically. > Gold is historically very difficult to create magically, and I'd > imagine the other metals used are likely also somewhat difficult to > reproduce I'm going with the idea that gold cannot be reproduced. I like that. > > 8. If you could play any Quidditch possition, what would it be? > > Why? Which team? > > > I likely wouldn't play Quidditch, actually, though I might take to > flying, and almost certainly would get in trouble for enchanting > computer equipment... Keeper. I'm afraid of heights, though, so I probably couldn't even do that. Still, Keeper involves the least flying around, and I could only be attacked if the Quaffle was in the scoring area. > > 9. Name a character who is going to have the most change in his/her > > characterization between books 5-7, and explain what changes might > > happen. > > > Neville and Draco I think are most radically due to change, though > everyone will be growing and maturing through the next few books. > I also think Cho Chang will become more multifaceted of a character, > and that we'll find out more about the families that Voldemort > killed, and the students who survied them... Ginny has not yet developed a character of her own. Now, I am *not* necessarily a G/H shipper, but I think in any case we need to know this little Weasley better. > > 10. What new flavors of Bertie Bott's beans would you like to eat? > > > Pickle, garlic, clove, ginger, salt & vinegar, apricot, plum, and > tangerine. Not all at once, naturally. > > lasagne, pad thai, mango, blueberry muffin Beccablue, who needs to run to class now- yea, master's level lectures! From jenserai at hotmail.com Tue Sep 24 14:52:21 2002 From: jenserai at hotmail.com (Jenserai Bariman) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 07:52:21 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Color Symbolism Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44401 Catlady: >Fire - Gryffindor - passion and courage >Earth - Hufflepuff - work and patience >Air - Ravenclaw - thought and communication >Water - Slytherin - deviousness (water can sneak out of even the >smallest crack in a vessel). >As shown, the Four Elements do pretty much match up with the Four >Houses, marred mainly by the plot's requirement that one House >(Slytherin) be evil and the other good, when all four Elements have >both good and evil aspects. (Devious is called flexible when it's >good.) > Me: I did some research in Tarot, astrology, wicca, etc a year ago, and the meanings I got of the colors/elements was this: Red - Fire - Active, creative Blue - Water - Diplomacy, love, intuition Yellow - Air - Intellect Green - Earth - Material gain, practicality These weren't the conceptions I had previously had when I had started the research, but it was pretty universal for all the sites visited, and the people I was working with (some of whom had been very into the whole thing long before I met them) didn't object. They seem to to fit the Hogwarts colors quite well only with Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw reversed. -Jens, who quite likes Daharja's post on the secondary house colors corresponding to male and female and all the issues this brings up, but can't actually give her own views on it because her favorite wicca book has gone missing _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From suicidal_mickey_mouse at hotmail.com Tue Sep 24 14:56:36 2002 From: suicidal_mickey_mouse at hotmail.com (Katherine Adams) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 14:56:36 +0000 Subject: The Profs and Which Houses They were In at Hogwarts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44402 Based upon current personality traits, which houses do you think Voldemort, Dumbledore, McGonaghal, Snape, Sirius, Hagrid, etc. did the Sorting Hat send them to while attending? I've got my ideas, but it would be interesting to see what everyone else thought. ~Spookykat From jodel at aol.com Tue Sep 24 16:35:41 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 12:35:41 EDT Subject: Wand Cores Message-ID: <14c.149b8cd0.2ac1ee5d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44403 Interesting speculations. Perhaps I might add a few more considerations; Concerning dragon heartstring; We know that there are several breeds of dragon, of different sizes and that there are dragons in the wild. But there are also overseen colonies of dragons, such as the one in Roumania where Charles Weasley works. The population of these colonies must be strictly controled or the colony would get out of control, or possibly its members start exhibiting some (probably damned dangerous) pathologies due to overcrowding. Therefore, given that there is a permanent and probably quite lucrative market for dragon products in the WW, it stands to reason that in addition to those which die natural deaths, the colony is routinely culled of elderly, infirm, injured or redundent members (of the more common breeds, at least) and that these are the source of the dragon products which are used throughout at least the European market. They are effectively "ranch dragons". We do not know exactly who owns these colonies, either. It seems inevitable that here is one fairly major source for wizards income. Either for private families, wizarding consortiums or various national Ministries. Concerning unicorn hair; The traditional method of capturing a unicorn was for a maiden to wait seated upon the ground in a location that unicorns were believed to frequent. Whereupon, eventually a unicorn would be hoped to appear, kneel down and place its head in her lap. What is interesting about this folktale is that when it has been depicted in manuscript illuminations or tapestries easily half of the time the maiden is shown to be holding a comb, or actually combing the unicorn's mane. Unicorns can be dangerous, and are certainly shy, but they can be handled, more readily by witches than by wizards. I suggest that while some wizards, such as Olivander may try taking the hairs himself, witches who live in proximity to forested areas known to contain unicorn flocks might annually (or even monthly, or whatever) take some grooming brushes, go out into the forest and wait in glades which show evidence of unicorn presence, wait for them to show up and start grooming. Any hairs which are taken in this manner would have none of the nasty consequences pretaining to damaging unicorns for personal gain, the flocks would gradually become accustomed to being aproached by witches with brushes and it would be a win-win situation all round. The only question would be whether this "unicorn harvest" would be managed as a cottage industry or whether the witches would be employed by a consortium. It standfs to reason that there are plenty of uses for unicorn hair in addition to the making of wand cores, so the business could be fairly lucrative. Concerning phoenix feather; Yes. it IS rare. There are not a lot of phoenixes and few of these have chosen to companion wizards. And the ones that have are no more generous with their feathers than those in the wild. However, birds groom themselves regularly and they DO lose feathers and they have favored places to roost. It stands to reason that anyone in the WW who hears rumors of a phoenix sighting is going to either go, or send someone to find the favored roosting spot. And once the bird is out os sight will investigate the area for shed feathers. It doesn't have to be tail feathers. Fawkes is described as being about the size of a swan. Swans are BIG birds (I would have expected him to be more in line with the size of a pheasent, or, at most, a peacock myself. Shorter tail, though). A quill feather would probably be quite large enough to core a wand. There is also the possibility that there might be some degree of limited moult before immolation. Feathers gleaned in this manner would be a nice monitary bonus to the finder. I do not believe that there is any way of managing a controlled harvest of them, and almost certainly no way to "ranch" them. And, for the record; I do not agree that a feather taken will burn or disapear when the phoenix next immolates. That would make phoenix feather totally unsuitable as a material for wand cores. Harry watched Fawkes immolate in Dumbledore's office and his wand went on working just fine. And, no, the feather does not have to be "given" it only needs to be "released" a shed feather will work just fine. It may not, however, be *possible* to pluck a feather from an unwilling phoenix. For one thing, they CAN disapear at will. Feathers and all... -JOdel From heidit at netbox.com Tue Sep 24 16:47:34 2002 From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 12:47:34 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Profs and Which Houses They were In at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00e401c263ea$30a4d0c0$0201a8c0@Frodo> No: HPFGUIDX 44404 > > Based upon current personality traits, which houses do you > think Voldemort, > Dumbledore, McGonaghal, Snape, Sirius, Hagrid, etc. did the > Sorting Hat send > them to while attending? > > I've got my ideas, but it would be interesting to see what > everyone else > thought. > Well, we know from JKR's interview that Hagrid was in Gryffindor, so leaving him off this hypothesizing would be worthwile. Also, Hermione, as we've recently discussed, says in Book 1 that Dumbledore was in Gryffindor, so while that's not irrefutable by JKR in subsequent books, at this point, it's something that we have to work with. Heidi <> <> From crussell at arkansas.net Tue Sep 24 17:15:47 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 17:15:47 -0000 Subject: Wands and Sorting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44405 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "greg_a126" wrote: > Where does Harry, Voldemort & their Phoenix feathers fit into this? > I see the phoenix feather as a "could go either way." Just as Harry isn't completely good, part of him was calling out to be in > Slytherin, he chose his side. And I think 50 years earlier, Tom > Riddle was the same way. He still had some good in him, but he made his decision. Thoughts? > > Greg I do not understand where you got the impression that part of Harry was "calling out to be in Slytherin." At the Sorting, after hearing Ron describe Slytherin, Harry made the conscious and apparently unconscious choice -"not Slytherin" According to Dumbledore, the hesitation by the Sorting Hat was a result of part of Voldemort "passing into Harry"-the end result of the failed avada kedavra curse. I am not saying Harry is completely good-he has his moments of weakness-like everyone else-but, IMO, the Sorting Hat's hesitation is not an example of a lack of goodness on Harry's part. I believe in choice- the wand chooses the wizard- we have been told. But IMO, the wand chooses based on the heart of the person-it does not foretell the future-it sees what is present at the time. bugaloo37-who agrees that everyone has a choice-including Tom Riddle/Voldemort. From kaityf at jorsm.com Tue Sep 24 17:18:07 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 12:18:07 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape/Petunia Connection [was Snape's "Mind Set"] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020924115822.02fd3488@mailhost.jorsm.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44406 Jessica wrote: >"SNAPE" and "EVANS" are essentially the same name >rearranged, minus the "P" in "SNAPE" and the "V" in >"EVANS," conveniently enough, however, the "P" in >"SNAPE" can be found in "PETUNIA" and the "V" in >"EVANS" can be found in "SEVERUS." Steve B.replied: ...what if Snape and Petunia were siblings or at least cousins. That would make Snape and Lily relatives. If this were the case, then perhaps Snape's dislike for James was based on a protectiveness he has for Lily, his little sister or cousin. That would also give James a motive for saving Snape's life (because Snape would be James's girlfriend's brother or cousin). That would also explain why Snape seems to love and hate Harry. As Harry's uncle, Snape feels like he must watch over Harry. At the same time, because Harry reminds Snape so much of James, Snape dislikes Harry. I have really been resisting the temptation to put too much into these letters and their meaning, but for some reason the exchange between Jessica and Steve triggered a thought and linked a couple of problems that have been discussed here before. Here's my thought -- What if Snape is not a brother or cousin to Petunia, but a half brother? This is really farfetched and I'm not really sure that I believe a bit of it, but it does seem to make a little bit of sense to me. I can't remember anything about Snape's parentage being provided in the canon, so if I'm suggesting something that's impossible, then I'll go back to square one. Suppose Snape's father was first married to a Muggle named Mr. Evans. They had a baby boy, Perseus, who was a little wizard. Mrs. Evans died and Mr. Evans later remarried to a Muggle woman. Along comes Lily and Petunia Evans, both technically Muggles. However, little Lily is a witch and is invited to Hogwarts. This would certainly explain how the Evans family knew enough about the WW to be proud to have a witch in the family. Now before Mr. Evans remarried, he didn't think he should raise a little wizard when he was a single Muggle, so he gives his little boy up to be raised in the WW. Mr. Evans must have recognized the anti-Muggle feelings in the WW and may have thought it best to change his son's name too before handing him over, so he rearranges the letters in his son's name and voila! Severus Snape. (He may have come up with this name because his son's disposition was a little, um, severe.) Perhaps too Snape has had an unhappy childhood and thinks it would have been better had his father kept him and maybe he resents his mother's death too. At Hogwarts he has to watch beautiful, happy Lily, who's so talented and who marries James Potter, a real popular guy. I can see him being very resentful of the entire situation. I also believe that Snape is a man of honor -- of sorts -- a man who does his duty. Sure he was a DE, but he saw fit to return to the good side. The same sense of duty/honor is part of what keeps him from doing harm to Harry and has him protecting Harry instead. Being the kind of person he is and being a half brother to Lily would certainly help explain his love/hate relationship with Harry, especially if he didn't have such a happy childhood and the reason for the lack of happiness came from his father giving him up and remarrying a Muggle. Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From fyredriftwood at yahoo.com Tue Sep 24 17:33:20 2002 From: fyredriftwood at yahoo.com (Fyre Wood) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 17:33:20 -0000 Subject: A Slytherin Poem... and Re: Slytherin Fight Song(FILK) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44407 Ellen, the Pottering Beekeeper wrote: >>>>>>>> Slytherin Fight song > (To the tune of the MSU Fight song) > > In the hallowed halls of Hogwarts, > Is a house that's known to all; > Its specialty is winning, > And the Hiss it's battle call > Slytherin teams are never beaten, > Our lust for victory is keen; > Fighting for the only colors, > Silver and Green. > > Grab a win for Slytherin, > Watch the points keep growing. > Slytherin teams are bound to win, > They're fighting with a vim. > RAH! RAH! RAH! > See their team is weakening, > We're going to win this game. > Fight! Fight! Rah! Team, Fight! > Victory for Slytherin!. > > > There. >>>>>> Fyre Wood (ME) replies: Ah darn! You beat me to it! I was going to write a song for Slytherin, since I am obessed with Draco Malfoy, and think Slytherin is the best house ever!!! (Did you know I have a license plate holder on my car that says "The Sorting Hat Put Me In Slytherin!"?) Because you already wrote that brilliant fight song, I thought that perhaps Slytherin needed their own poem, sort of like an alamater that goes on to the wall of their common room: "The Web We Weave" By Fyre Wood T'is but a tangled web we weave, When we strive for what we achieve. We will manipulate and deceive, And convince others in what to believe. We'll wake up every morning without a yawn, And instigate trouble before dawn. We'll corrupt everyone into doing what's wrong. Thus everyone will be our pawns. Even during a Quidditch meet, We don't want to face defeat. Thus resulting for us to cheat, And the other team, we shall beat. Yes, t'is but a tangled web we weave, And we'll always strive for what we want to achieve. We'll use manipulation and deceit, To convince others in what we believe. ______________________________ Ellen, the Pottering Beekeeper, also wrote wrote: > Now, can anyone come up with suitable songs/ corresponding schools > for Griffindor and Ravenclaw? > If by perhaps you also meant an anti-Gryffindor song, or perhaps an anti-Hufflepuff, then I'm there. Sorry Gail.. it was just too easy. I love all the houses, but this one was too easy to pass up. --Fyre Wood, the loyal Slytherin Pureblood who is happily lusting after Draco Malfoy... and waving the "NINE" flag in the mean time. From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Tue Sep 24 17:34:12 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 17:34:12 +0000 Subject: The Houses Mystery Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44408 Im sorry if this has been discussed before, but I dont get as much time as I would like to read pervious messages. Ive often been puzzled by the contradiction between Hagrids assertion that all the dark wizards came from Sythenian house and the existence of Peter Pettigrew, who was a close friend of James Potter and a dark wizard, betraying them. If he was, as is genially assumed, in Gryfindor, then he should not have been a dark wizard, and if he was in Sythenian, why would he and James be friends? Harry and Co. appear to have no close friends from any of the other houses. I think I have solved that problem. If you want, like Voldemort, to be a dark wizard, you need ambition and the willingness to bend or break the rules in pursuit of your goal. All Sythenian traits, but you dont have to be evil to bend the rules; Barty Crouch Sr. was prepared to order the use of the unforgivable curses to fight Voldemort, and Sirus defined him as powerful and ambitious, all Sythenian traits. We dont know for sure what house he was in, but Ill bet ten gallons (Id better win, I dont have ten gallons) that he was a Sythenian. Now, Barty Crouch Jr, who bravely attempted to free Voldemort and lied for him (something Hermione did for Harry) and therefore exhibited Gryfindor traits. Was he in Gryfindor? We dont know, but I suspect that he was. Snape, who was in Sythenian, showed no loyalty to Voldemort and betrayed him to Dumbledore. Lucis Malfloy did not search for Voldemort either. Therefore, I think that only the boss dark wizards have to be in Sythenian, such as Tom Riddle, and they corrupt the other houses, using their traits to ensnare them. Thoughts? Chris _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From fyredriftwood at yahoo.com Tue Sep 24 17:40:58 2002 From: fyredriftwood at yahoo.com (Fyre Wood) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 17:40:58 -0000 Subject: The Profs and Which Houses They were In at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44409 Spooky Cat (aka:Katherine Adams) kindly started this topic: > Based upon current personality traits, which houses do you think Voldemort, > Dumbledore, McGonaghal, Snape, Sirius, Hagrid, etc. did the Sorting Hat send > them to while attending? > > I've got my ideas, but it would be interesting to see what everyone else > thought. > Fyre Wood (ME) Replies: Voldemort-- When he went to school, he was known to everyone as Tom Marvolo Riddle. He was a Slytherin, Head Boy, and Prefect. CoS mentions this much. Snape, Sirius, and the other Marauders-- I still hold to the theory that Snape was the fifth housemate in the house of Gryffindor when all five of them attended. I know GoF mentioned that Snape hung out with a gang of Slytherins, but perhaps he was the *only* Gryffindor in the group and he was considered one of them. There has been no proof either way regarding this, though I think that Snape has a lot of Bravery in him for being a spy. Hagrid-- JK Rowling said that he was a Gryffindor, though I still hold true to my theory that he was a Slytherin, hence why he spent so much time in the dungeons. Dumbledore-- Gryffindor. Hermione mentions it. Lucius Malfoy-- Slytherin. Draco mentions that all his family has been in Slytherin. Neville-- I still think that Neville belongs in Hufflepuff, but he has a little bravery stashed away that we haven't seen. Oh yes. He will do great things.. because he is NOT evil and will do it for the common GOOD! --Fyre Wood, who feels she has gone on too long on this topic... where did that NINE flag go? From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Tue Sep 24 17:08:09 2002 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 17:08:09 -0000 Subject: The Profs and Which Houses They were In at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44410 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Katherine Adams" wrote: > Based upon current personality traits, which houses do you think Voldemort, > Dumbledore, McGonaghal, Snape, Sirius, Hagrid, etc. did the Sorting Hat send > them to while attending? I think, that Joanne K. Rowling has stated, that all the Marauders were in Gryffindor, this includes logically Sirius. Hagrid is also a Gryffindor, I think, but this is just a personal feeling. Hermione said in book 1, that Dumbledore was also a Gryffindor. She might be wrong, but I doubt it and Ron told Harry that Voldemort was a Slytherin, which is also very likely. It is likely, that the heads of the houses where former pupils of these houses. This means: McGonnagal a Gryffindor, Flitwick a Ravenclaw, Sprout a Hufflepuff and Snape a Slytherin. Hickengruendler From crussell at arkansas.net Tue Sep 24 17:51:55 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 17:51:55 -0000 Subject: The Profs and Which Houses They were In at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44411 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Katherine Adams" wrote: > Based upon current personality traits, which houses do you think Voldemort, > Dumbledore, McGonaghal, Snape, Sirius, Hagrid, etc. did the Sorting Hat send > them to while attending? > > ~Spookykat I think another clue in figuring out house designations-would be who the heads of the current houses are. IMO, it would not make sense to put someone in charge of a particular house if that person (if they attended Hogwarts) had not been a member of that house themselves. So working on that theory, I think we can assume the following: McGonagall was in Gryffyndor. Snape in Slytherin. As for Sirius, Lupin, and Pettigrew, because of their close friendship to James Potter, I have always assumed they were in Gryffyndor. I am basing this on the fact that there does not seem to be many "cross-house" friendships- at least, not that fall into the "best friend"/ confidant status. There certainly had to be a certain amount of trust between the Marauders considering what they were up to- the animagi transformations. It has been stated in canon that both Hagrid and Dumbledore were in Gryffyndor. Another assumption can be made in regards to Arthur and Molly Weasley, based on their general characteristics, I would assume they too were in Gryffyndor. Based upon current personality traits, I would have a hard time "sorting" Fudge- he is unwise, a Malfoy stooge-possibly-but would that automatically place him in Slytherin? Who knows what he truly feels? IMO, the "Sorting Hat" is a tricky -somewhat "iffy" device. JKR has said that we will learn more about it in future books and I am ready to find out. bugaloo37-who sometimes wonders what house she would be in. From dcyasser at yahoo.com Tue Sep 24 18:08:06 2002 From: dcyasser at yahoo.com (dcyasser) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 18:08:06 -0000 Subject: Who was Wormtail supposed to murder? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44412 Goblet of Fire, in the Riddle House, LV and Wormtail are going over the plan, discussing the next murder that Wormtail is to commit, along with Crouch Jr., that will clear the path to get to Harry. "Come Wormtail, one more death and our path to Harry Potter is clear." Who is that intended victim? Is it Moody? Was Crouch supposed to kill him, but kept him alive, as he says, to question him about his past and his habits? And Voldemort doesn't mind the change in plans? Or does he not know about that? "dcyasser" From olivia at rocketbandit.com Tue Sep 24 18:47:04 2002 From: olivia at rocketbandit.com (Olivia) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 14:47:04 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione and The Winter's Tale In-Reply-To: <00c101c26383$2efb9360$3a3b3244@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44413 Debbie said: "A couple of weeks ago I saw a production of Shakespeare's The Winter's Tale, which I had neither seen nor read before. I was very curious about the character Hermione, because this is the play which JKR has stated was the source of Hermione's name. JKR stated in one interview (http://www.magicalharrypotter.com/TodayShow.html) that she chose it because she *just* liked the name (emphasis mine). And according to the Lexicon, JKR stated in an earlier interview (that I cannot find) that the two characters are not at all similar. But that's not what I saw in Shakespeare's play. ... 1. Shakespeare's Hermione, a Queen of Sicilia, is accused of treason by adultery, by her irrationally jealous and insecure husband, Leontes. ... 2. Hermione is tried and convicted for her *crime* and Leontes ignores an oracle proclaiming her innocence. Their son dies and Hermione collapses and is presumed dead; Leontes repents, plunging into a lifetime of penitence for his foolish rage. In the last scene, Leontes is shown a "statue" of Hermione, properly aged to reflect the 16 years since her presumptive death. But there's been a curse, and as the curse has just been lifted by the return of L&H's long-lost daughter, Hermione comes to life. An apparently dead person appears in a statue-like form and is restored to life when the curse is reversed? Sounds a lot like being petrified by a basilisk to me." Interestingly enough, I was reading "The Magical Worlds of Harry Potter" by David Colbert last night -- very informative book, by the way -- and came across this short passage about Hermione's name: "Hermione Granger's first name confuses many readers. Pronounced her-MY-oh-nee, it is the feminine form of "Hermes" (like Percy Weasley's owl), Greek god of eloquence. Here's an amusing connection: In Shakespeare's 'A Winter Tale' a character named Hermione becomes a statue. That's what happens to Hermione Granger after the basilisk attacks in 'Chamber'. J.K. Rowling must have smiled when she thought of that." (pg 134, sidebar, Colbert) I have to agree with you that some of the things Ms. Rowling says in interviews sounds a bit like her trying to throw us off track. Possibly to tide us over during long waits for books??? Whatever the connection is, reading that list night and then this post this morning has inspired me to pull my massive "Complete Works of William Shakespeare" off the shelf again and read A Winter Tale. Olivia :) From olivia at rocketbandit.com Tue Sep 24 19:01:55 2002 From: olivia at rocketbandit.com (Olivia) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 15:01:55 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Houses Mystery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44414 Chris said: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ive often been puzzled by the contradiction between Hagrids assertion that all the dark wizards came from Sythenian house and the existence of Peter Pettigrew, who was a close friend of James Potter and a dark wizard, betraying them. If he was, as is genially assumed, in Gryfindor, then he should not have been a dark wizard, and if he was in Sythenian, why would he and James be friends? Harry and Co. appear to have no close friends from any of the other houses. I think I have solved that problem. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Actually, it's Slytherin, not Sythenian. Named after Salazar Slytherin. Just think of how a snake slithers. :) Unless you're reading translated versions of the books and that's how it's written, in which case, I apologize. The point has been made before that not all Slytherins are bad. And not all Gryffindors are good. A Slytherin is someone who is ambitious and wants power and will do anything to achieve that power. Yes, that sounds bad, but it's very possible to be ambitious without calling yourself a Dark Lord and killing off innocent people. Just look at Harry. Harry is clearly good, the chances of him going over to the "bad side" are slim to none, but he was still almost put into Slytherin by the Sorting Hat because he IS very ambitious and he does have a lot of power. But he's also courageous and does the right thing by nature, yet still the Sorting Hat put him in Gryffindor only after Harry begged. As far as Peter is concerned, I believe he was a Gryffindor along with the Marauders: James, Sirius, and Remus. And I go along with those who thing Snape was the fifth roommate and part of his bitterness stems from being left out of their clique. Peter may be slimy and sneaky and a horrible little rat, but I don't consider him Slytherin material. He seems more than happy being Voldemort's servant. He hasn't shown any ambition in overthrowing Voldemort in anyway or doing anything to become more powerful. Chris said: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Snape, who was in Sythenian, showed no loyalty to Voldemort and betrayed him to Dumbledore. Lucis Malfloy did not search for Voldemort either. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Actually, I'm 99% sure we don't have any canon proof that Snape was in Slytherin house while he was at Hogwarts as a student. It seems like the obvious because it was said that he hung out with a gang of Slytherins and he is now the Slytherin Head of House, but, like I said, I believe Snape was a Gryffindor and that Rowling is saving this as a shocking revelation for later on. You can say that Snape showed no loyalty to Voldemort and ultimately betrayed him, but on the other side of that coin, he also showed tremendous bravery and he ended up doing the right thing. After all, Dumbledore said that Snape became a spy at (I don't remember the exact quote) "great personal risk to [Snape]." To me that screams Gryffindor. Or if you want to be go even farther, maybe Snape was a Hufflepuff. :) But maybe that's pushing it. Chris said: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Therefore, I think that only the boss dark wizards have to be in Sythenian, such as Tom Riddle, and they corrupt the other houses, using their traits to ensnare them. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Again, I gotta say, not all Slytherins are dark wizards. Yeah, Ron said so, but that's hardly an accurate statistic. With all the Slytherins who have come through Hogwarts, it would be a pretty large army of dark wizards with a bunch of new soldiers each year. Olivia From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Sep 24 19:08:05 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 19:08:05 -0000 Subject: Who was Wormtail supposed to murder? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44415 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "dcyasser" wrote: > Goblet of Fire, in the Riddle House, LV and Wormtail are going over > the plan, discussing the next murder that Wormtail is to commit, along with Crouch Jr., that will clear the path to get to Harry. > "Come Wormtail, one more death and our path to Harry Potter is clear." Who is that intended victim? > Is it Moody? Was Crouch supposed to kill him, but kept him alive, as he says, to question him about his past and his habits? > And Voldemort doesn't mind the change in plans? Or does he not know about that? > Voldemort was in no position to object to the change in plans, since it was JKR's not Wormtail's. In other editions of the book the language has been changed: from "murder" to "curse" , from "died" to "disappeared" and from "death" to "obstacle removed." I have a feeling the person who was originally supposed to die was Crouch Sr., but that JKR decided she wanted Crouch Jr. to kill him, not Wormtail. Pippin From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Tue Sep 24 19:15:13 2002 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 19:15:13 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius Black-What a Guy! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44416 >I have read post after post by people who like Snape and/or Draco. >But how many of you out there are a "Sirius FanCome on you Sirius fans- >it's >time to stand up and be counted!! > >bugaloo37 > Hello there: I am a serious Sirius fan. (Pun intended - pause for groans.) [Oh, and to the sweet lady who thought Sirius was named for clouds - those are *cirrus*, only two syllables. Sirius is also known as "the Dog Star", how precious is that!] I find all of the characters fascinating to greater and lesser degrees; my favorite *characters*, as I define the complexities that JKR has created, are in order Severus Snape, Sirius Black and Remus Lupin. My favorite *personalities*, which I define as "JKR has written someone I would like to leap off the page and get to know" are Remus Lupin, Sirius Black, and Hermione Granger. (I have a lot in common with Hermione.) But Sirius: I am going to go out on a limb here about some of the commentary I have read. There seems to me to be an undercurrent in comments about how Sirius couldn't possibly love Harry just out of duty that an "obligation" is a negative, burdensome thing - and indeed, modern society would have us believe that we don't want encumbrances like commitments and obligations to other people because that keeps us from being "free". All I believe it does is keep us from being grown-ups and enjoying a significant part of our maturity, where part of the joy is taking responsibility for others - our children, in some cases our aging parents, subordinates, employees - and striving to do a good job. There is real joy in that. I believe that Sirius is trying in many ways to get his life back on track after *years* of it were lost in purposelessness for an injustice; and I believe he would embrace the responsibility of being Harry's guardian gladly and willingly, and be willing to learn to love Harry more as he gets to know him. To add trivial reasons, Sirius doubtless did see Harry as an infant - he was his godfather, after all - and then there's the fact that Harry looks amazingly like his father. Everyone comments on it. Sirius loved James - no need to read too much into that, best friends do love each other, and there doesn't have to be an sort of homoerotic overtone to that remark to make it true and deep. Even if Harry were the biggest brat on the planet, Sirius could probably still find purpose in his life - to get him straightened out. Instead, he finds this boy, obviously aching for some kind of adult love and role model in his life, and who seems to basically be a decent kid trying to find his own way and do the right thing. I see nothing at all unnatural in Sirius' wanting to pick up the pieces and do what he can for Harry. And I see nothing odd in Harry wanting to embrace what's offered. They are each to the other a link in something important that was ripped from their lives. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From kkearney at students.miami.edu Tue Sep 24 19:20:18 2002 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 19:20:18 -0000 Subject: Magical Genetics In-Reply-To: <112.17d5304e.2ac06aca@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44417 Ksnidget wrote: > Genetics is weird enough to come up with very simple > explanations for the observed pattern. Jumping genes, > transposons, could be another explanation for it, but > we don't have as many examples of genes changing from > one generation to the next with that as we have for the > type of genes I have been discussing which have long > sections of repeats that are unstable between generations. > Once the gene becomes long enough the phenotype changes, > and once it becomes long enough it is difficult for the gene > to become short again. Dynamic mutation, right? I hadn't considered something like that, but it makes much more sense that my propositions. However, it still seems that there would be that a pesky recessive gene lurking on the other chromosome (I could be wrong, but it seems unlikely that both genes would reach the pivotal number of repeats at the same time). -Corinth From primroseburrows at yahoo.com Tue Sep 24 18:33:41 2002 From: primroseburrows at yahoo.com (Primrose Burrows) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 11:33:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Profs and Which Houses They were In at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020924183341.96656.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44418 Fyre Wood wrote: Snape, Sirius, and the other Marauders-- >I still hold to the theory that Snape was the fifth housemate in the >house of Gryffindor when all five of them attended. I know >GoF mentioned that Snape hung out with a gang of Slytherins, but >perhaps he was the *only* Gryffindor in the group and he was considered one >of them. I like the idea that Snape was a Gryffindor, but if he was, how and why did he become the head of Slytherin? >Hagrid-- JK Rowling said that he was a Gryffindor, though I >still hold true to my theory that he was a Slytherin, hence why he spent >so much time in the dungeons. It's a nice idea, but I'm of the "If Jo says it's true, it's true" school. ~primrose, holding onto the S.A.A.B. (Slytherins aren't All Bad) flag. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From myphilosophy2001 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 24 19:03:29 2002 From: myphilosophy2001 at yahoo.com (Moonstruck) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 12:03:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape/Petunia Connection [was Snape's "Mind Set"] In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020924115822.02fd3488@mailhost.jorsm.com> Message-ID: <20020924190329.78725.qmail@web20807.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44419 More thoughts on Snape's connection to Petunia and, thus, Harry: I'm rereading PoA (how many times is it now?) and, with this newfound suspicion about Snapes' parentage, read a couple of scenes rather differently: In Ch. 8 (Flight of the Fat Lady), Harry has tea with Lupin in Lupin's office. While Harry's there, Snape arrives with the Wolfsbane Potion. My memory of the scene was that Snape was agitated to see his two least favorite people consorting. When I read it this time, I wondered if, perhaps (and this, I admit, is a stretch), his reaction is one of nervousness and concern over Harry. "Snape set down the smoking goblet, his eyes wandering between Harry and Lupin." He is rather impatient with Lupin, urging him that he should "drink that directly." And when Snape leaves, we're told "there was a look in his eye Harry didn't like. He backed out of the room, unsmiling and watchful." (156) Snape's behavior in this scene is really rather ambiguous. We aren't told that he's angry or annoyed. In fact, to me, the overriding sense I get from him is anxiety, nervousness. Perhaps he's having flashbacks from his school days, since Harry, who resembles James, seems so chummy with Lupin. Or *maybe* he's worried about Harry's safety, in some strange, emotionally strangled, twisted way. Snape seems to be paranoid throughout the book that Lupin's just going to transform into a werewolf suddenly during the full moon -- even if he's had the Wolfsbane. Is it possible he was worried Lupin might become stricken while with Harry and hurt him? Or even that Lupin would deliver Harry to Sirius? Again, one could wonder if Snape's motivations are concern for Harry in the next chapter following Sirius' attack on the Fat Lady: "You remember the conversation we had, Headmaster, just before -- ah -- the start of term," said Snape, who was barely opening his lips, as though trying to block Percy out of the conversation. "I do, Severus," said Dumbledore, and there was something like warning in his voice. "It seems -- almost impossible -- that Black could have entered the school without inside help. I did express my concern when you appointed --" "I do not believe a single person in this castle would have helped Black enter it," said Dumbledore, and his tone made it so clear that the subject was closed that Snape didn't reply. (165-6) Could Snape's suspicion of Lupin's collaboration with Black be fueled by both a concern for his relative (nephew?), Harry, *and* his resentment -- and, thus, distrustfulness -- toward Lupin and Black for how they treaded him when they were students at Hogwarts? I'm going out on a limb, but I guess what I'm really saying is that the text can be interpreted either way. But the scene I'm *really* stuck on is the conversation Hagrid, McG, Flitwick, Fudge, and M. Rosemerta have about Black at the Three Broomsticks. Explaining the circumstances surrounding the Potters' deaths, Fudge says, "Dumbledore, who was of course working tirelessly against You-Know-Who, had a number of useful spies. One of them tipped him off, and he alerted James and Lily at once." (204) The comment is dropped in the conversation so casually that you have to wonder if it's another clue that JKR's thrown in quite inconspicuously so we pass right over it. Perhaps that *useful spy* was Snape, who was keeping a careful watch over Voldie's machinations and against James and Lily because he knew Lily was a relative (sister?). You could say that Snape's hateful behavior toward Harry eliminates his likelihood of being a blood guardian over Harry. Petunia's just as loathsome to Harry, but she still provides him with protection and sustenance (however pitiful it might be). Perhaps Snape's feelings for Harry are made complex and frustrating because his hatred of James Potter was so deep (could Snape blame Lily's death on James?), but his sense of duty toward his kin is just as powerful. He may well resent Harry for stirring these conflicting emotions of bitter hate and shameful guilt. That would intensify his feelings of agitation toward Harry. Okay, I'm just throwing out some suggestions. I don't even know if I believe them, but it's an interesting take on the text that I intend to study a bit further. -Jessica --- Carol Bainbridge wrote: > Jessica wrote: > >"SNAPE" and "EVANS" are essentially the same name > >rearranged, minus the "P" in "SNAPE" and the "V" > in > >"EVANS," conveniently enough, however, the "P" in > >"SNAPE" can be found in "PETUNIA" and the "V" in > >"EVANS" can be found in "SEVERUS." > > Steve B.replied: > ...what if Snape and Petunia were siblings or at > least cousins. That would make Snape and Lily > relatives. If this were > the case, then perhaps Snape's dislike for James was > based on a > protectiveness he has for Lily, his little sister or > cousin. > That would also give James a motive for saving > Snape's life (because > Snape would be James's girlfriend's brother or > cousin). That would > also explain why Snape seems to love and hate Harry. > As Harry's > uncle, Snape feels like he must watch over Harry. At > the same time, > because Harry reminds Snape so much of James, Snape > dislikes Harry. > > I have really been resisting the temptation to put > too much into these > letters and their meaning, but for some reason the > exchange between Jessica > and Steve triggered a thought and linked a couple of > problems that have > been discussed here before. Here's my thought -- > > What if Snape is not a brother or cousin to Petunia, > but a half > brother? This is really farfetched and I'm not > really sure that I believe > a bit of it, but it does seem to make a little bit > of sense to me. I can't > remember anything about Snape's parentage being > provided in the canon, so > if I'm suggesting something that's impossible, then > I'll go back to square > one. Suppose Snape's father was first married to a > Muggle named Mr. > Evans. They had a baby boy, Perseus, who was a > little wizard. Mrs. Evans > died and Mr. Evans later remarried to a Muggle > woman. Along comes Lily and > Petunia Evans, both technically Muggles. However, > little Lily is a witch > and is invited to Hogwarts. This would certainly > explain how the Evans > family knew enough about the WW to be proud to have > a witch in the > family. Now before Mr. Evans remarried, he didn't > think he should raise a > little wizard when he was a single Muggle, so he > gives his little boy up to > be raised in the WW. Mr. Evans must have recognized > the anti-Muggle > feelings in the WW and may have thought it best to > change his son's name > too before handing him over, so he rearranges the > letters in his son's name > and voila! Severus Snape. (He may have come up > with this name because his > son's disposition was a little, um, severe.) > > Perhaps too Snape has had an unhappy childhood and > thinks it would have > been better had his father kept him and maybe he > resents his mother's death > too. At Hogwarts he has to watch beautiful, happy > Lily, who's so talented > and who marries James Potter, a real popular guy. I > can see him being very > resentful of the entire situation. > > I also believe that Snape is a man of honor -- of > sorts -- a man who does > his duty. Sure he was a DE, but he saw fit to > return to the good > side. The same sense of duty/honor is part of what > keeps him from doing > harm to Harry and has him protecting Harry instead. > Being the kind of > person he is and being a half brother to Lily would > certainly help explain > his love/hate relationship with Harry, especially if > he didn't have such a > happy childhood and the reason for the lack of > happiness came from his > father giving him up and remarrying a Muggle. > > Carol Bainbridge > (kaityf at jorsm.com) > > http://www.lcag.org > > ===== "Oh, I'll settle down with some old story/About a boy who's just like me/Thought there was love in everything and everyone/You're so naive!/After a while they always get it/They always reach a sorry end/Still it was worth it as I turned the pages solemnly, and then/With a winning smile, the boy/With naivety succeeds/At the final moment, I cried/I always cry at endings" - "Get Me Away From Here I'm Dying," Belle and Sebastian __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From stevebinch at hotmail.com Tue Sep 24 19:10:16 2002 From: stevebinch at hotmail.com (Steve Binch) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 13:10:16 -0600 Subject: New Question and Answer thing Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44420 I think these Q&A ones are fun to read. They help me get to know the people here without actually "getting to know" the people here. I'm new here, so here you go. You can get to know me without "getting to know" me. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "arcum42" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Fyre Wood" wrote: > > Okay, I've read a few posts asking for a new question and answer > > thing, so here we go =) > > 1.Do you think we'll ever go inside an Arithmacy class or perhaps any other classes we have yet to see? I hope we never go into Arithmacy. I get the impression that it is the same as Arithmetic or Math. I think that would add some unwanted boredom to the books. > > 2. Do any of the pets in Harry Potter seem like they're not *really* pets. Even though Trevor, Crookshanks and even Pig seem like they might be a little suspicious, I don't think any of them will be people. It's been done. JKR will have something more clever up her sleeve rather than repeat that surprise. Now Crookshanks might have previously belonged to Mrs. Figg, but is definitely still a cat. > > 3. Name your favorite new organization with letters (Ie: N.I.N.E= Neville is not Evil) and try to come up with your own. S.A.P.A.1. = Snape And Petunia Are One (What? It's possible!) > > 4. Will Draco ever stop being oh so evil? Draco will be "Oh So Evil" all the way through book 7. He will get even worse because his jealousy will grow. I won't refute that he possibly will surprise us at the end, but I think he will try to impress his father by becoming a follower of Vold. and take the place of Crouch Jr. or something. > > 5. Predictions on the final chapter of book 7? (See my answer to the previous question) Draco will become a strong follower of Vold. in order to impress his dad and also in hopes of helping to bring Harry down! > > 6. Ron and Hermione--Will they hook up? Yes, but not in the books. In the epilogue JKR will say how they marry and live happily ever after. Until then, they will continue to fight and make up. Probably at least once per book. > > 7. What's the deal with Wizard money? Does it collect interest? No, it doesn't collect interest. The reason they keep it in the bank is cause it's too heavy to carry around. Can you imagine Harry keeping a safe full of galleons under the stairs at the Dursley's? Most wizards would rather keep it Grongotts, that way they don't have to worry about someone breaking into their homes and stealing all their money. > > 8. If you could play any Quidditch position, what would it be? Why? Which team? Seeker. As seeker, you either get all the glory or all the blame (in most cases). Speaking of Quidditch, do you think that the American wizards play it? Or did they invent their own game played on brooms? (examples: Rugby/Grid-Iron, Cricket/Baseball) > > 9. Name a character who is going to have the most change in his/her characterization between books 5-7, and explain what changes might happen. Cho Chang. Mostly because her character hasn't really developed much yet. I think that Harry's relationship with Cho will be much like my relationships in high school. Harry will become good friend with her, always having his crush on her, but to her, Harry will always be her little pal. Man, that sucks! > > 10. What new flavors of Bertie Bott's beans would you like to eat? Prime Rim, Supreme Pizza, Lasagna, Diet Mt. Dew, Cheese and Broccoli, BBQ Chicken, Cheddar Stuffed Chiles. Mmmmm. Well, I'm off to lunch. -Steve B. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From olivia at rocketbandit.com Tue Sep 24 19:47:39 2002 From: olivia at rocketbandit.com (Olivia) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 15:47:39 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Profs and Which Houses They were In at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <20020924183341.96656.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44421 Primrose said: "I like the idea that Snape was a Gryffindor, but if he was, how and why did he become the head of Slytherin?" I always thought it was part of his act. He's trying to play the part of a Death Eater, so one would assume he would be in Slytherin. If Dumbledore were to make him Head of Hufflepuff, it might take away a little of his thunder. :) Snape as Death Eater is neither very huffley nor puffley, but he's very Slytherish. Olivia. From gandharvika at hotmail.com Tue Sep 24 20:19:30 2002 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 20:19:30 +0000 Subject: (HPforGrownups)Igor Karkaroff(FILK) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44422 Igor Karkaroff (a FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Lobachevsky_ by Tom Leher) Dedicated to Coriolan...I really, really, REALLY didn't think I could do it...but for all it's worth, here it is. Note: This filk absolutely pales in comparison to the original...if you can get to hear it, please do! Another Note: For this filk, Karkaroff has reverted to his Russian accent. ******************************************************** Karkaroff (Speaking) How did I get in this horrible mess? A man who has been forced to flee. And why am I this much in distress? Nervously twisting around my goatee. (Singing) My fellow D.E.s I betrayed I am the one to blame And the fully reformed D.E. Igor Karkaroff is my name Hi! The fully reformed D.E. Igor Karka- (Speaking) I am never forget the day I am caught. In one word I tell you how I was then feeling... Terrified (Singing) Terrified Six months tracked down by Mad-Eye (Of course back then he had both pairs of eyes) I can't deny I was terrified, terrified, terrified... (Speaking) Only to be sure I did not loose my composure. (Singing) And ever since that fateful day My life is not the same And the fully reformed D.E. Igor Karkaroff is my name Hi! The fully reformed D.E. Igor Karka- (Speaking) I am never forget the day I am first taken to trial With Dementors right outside the door I am bound to the chair before the Head of the Department of Magical Law Enforcement and a room full of angry people who would like nothing more than to see me tossed in into Azkaban and the key thrown away. Bozhe moi! This is a disaster But then, I get brilliant idea...ha-ha! (Singing) Dolohav Antonin Did countless Muggles in And Evans Rosier With one man Mulciber They worked for Voldemort The Travers were, I'm sure The McKinnon's murderers And Rookwood spied >From the inside And finally There's Snape When Crouch knows I have names Ha ha! My neck it will be saved! With Snape Severus, Rookwood, Augustus Both the Travers Evan Rosier And Mulciber Plus Dolohov Names I'll list off For me freedom will come Yes, for me freedom will come I'll testify I will not lie They all worked for Lord Voldemort Then in Azkaban my name is cursed When they learn that my sentence was reversed And who do all the D.E.s hate Up to this very day? The fully reformed D.E. Igor Karkaroff is my name Hi! The fully reformed D.E. Igor Karka- (Speaking) I am never forget the day the Dark Mark burns again The third task of the Tri-Wizard Competition. Immediately I know the Dark Lord has returned. And Snape is no help. Well, at first I am thinking ! ? I'm in trouble. But then...then I think I'm in trouble. It is at that time I run away. If ever I am again tracked down and caught, I will have to wait until book five to find out. (Singing) If I am crucio-ed And if I am then slain The fully reformed D.E. Igor Karkaroff is still my name Hi! -Gail B. who is 'clicking' the "Send" key and going to wash her hands _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From babydragoneye at yahoo.com Tue Sep 24 21:08:36 2002 From: babydragoneye at yahoo.com (Amber) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 21:08:36 -0000 Subject: Sirius' House Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44423 Ok, tell me if this is new to anyone, or if this is a really old thought that just came into my head, but who else has thought that at least Sirius should be a Slytherin? I mean, Hagrid was totally convinced that Sirius was a Death Eater, right? And Hagrid said that there wasn't a Death Eater that didn't come from Slytherins. JKR pays way too much attention to detail to not have noticed that. And if Sirius is a Slytherin wouldn't it have made since for James to be in there too? A thought, sorry if I messed up your brain too much. Crysti Ps, I'm Crysti, and I'm new, probably won't be around often. Hope to hear back from people. :) From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Tue Sep 24 22:23:38 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 22:23:38 -0000 Subject: The Profs and Which Houses They were In at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44424 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Olivia" wrote: > Primrose said: > "I like the idea that Snape was a Gryffindor, but if he was, how and why did > he become the head of Slytherin?" > > I always thought it was part of his act. He's trying to play the part of a > Death Eater, so one would assume he would be in Slytherin. If Dumbledore > were to make him Head of Hufflepuff, it might take away a little of his > thunder. :) Snape as Death Eater is neither very huffley nor puffley, but > he's very Slytherish. > Yeah, but most of the Death Eaters went to school with Snape, and know perfectly well what house he was in, so making him head of Slytherin when he wasn't one isn't going to fool anybody. If anything, if Snape was anything in any other house, and Dumbledore went and made him head of Slytherin, it would only make the Slytherin parents more pissed off and suspicious. "Dumbledore made a *Gryffindor* head of Slytherin house? Those chivalrous morons are taking over everywhere!" Draco would be whining about it all over the school. No, I see no reason to assume Snape was ever anything but a Slytherin. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From Malady579 at hotmail.com Tue Sep 24 22:45:11 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 22:45:11 -0000 Subject: pronunciation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44425 Felinia wrote: >>>[Oh, and to the sweet lady who thought Sirius was named for clouds - those are *cirrus*, only two syllables. Sirius is also known as "the Dog Star", how precious is that!] <<< Me: Ok, in my defense, I have always been terrible at pronouncing words correctly. When I first read "Snape", I heard *snap* in my head, and he has been *Snap* ever since. So when I read "Sirius", I head *cirrus* in my head. Last weekend I was telling my mom the discussing this group was having over Sirius, and she laughed at the way I pronouced Sirius and that I confused the two words. Sadly, it never dawned on me that the word for the clouds was spelled cirrus not sirius. I can memorize thousands of pages of history and Harry Potter, but be expected to remember words' spelling...impossible. I sit here now with a unabridged dictionary within arms distance. But the point I do want to make is...how am I suppost to pronounce Sirius, or rather, how do ya'll pronouce Sirius? With my Texas southern accent, I pronouce it as sear-us. Like the clouds. Am I "suppost" to pronounce it ser-e-us to be properly British? Oh, and also, the sweet lady part above. It makes me sound so old. Gee, that dear, old, confused lady who can't keep her words straight. Sorry, but I'm only 25, and I do mean well. :) Thanks for putting up with my confused mind and tongue, Melody From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 24 22:52:40 2002 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 15:52:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] pronunciation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020924225240.81740.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44426 --- Melody wrote: > Ok, in my defense, I have always been terrible at pronouncing words > correctly. When I first read "Snape", I heard *snap* in my head, and > he has been *Snap* ever since. So when I read "Sirius", I head > *cirrus* in my head. Relax, I'm the same way. I was reading one series...Dragonlance, I believe it was, back in junior high. There was a character named Riverwind. I pronounced the last half of his name as in a winding road, not the blowing wind, and was horribly embarrassed when I finally heard a friend say it properly. But you know, I still say it that way to this day! > But the point I do want to make is...how am I suppost to pronounce > Sirius, or rather, how do ya'll pronouce Sirius? With my Texas > southern accent, I pronouce it as sear-us. Like the clouds. Am I > "suppost" to pronounce it ser-e-us to be properly British? Granted, I'm a Texan myself, but I have a rather odd half-British accent after living in London for a few years. :) I pronounce it "seer-ee-us", in three syllables. As someone just pointed out, it's as in Sirius the dog star. Of course, I also said Hay-grid until the movie came out, so who am I to say? *g* Although I DID get to lord knowing "Hermione" over my brother, since I PLAYED Hermione in "A Winter's Tale". ;) I really need to listen to the audio tapes, I suppose... Andrea the rambling ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Tue Sep 24 23:06:55 2002 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene Mikhlin) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 00:06:55 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] re: Marvolo-Lockhart-Color Symbolism References: <1032775370.33116.62927.m9@yahoogroups.com> <3D8FE1AA.8101C8AB@bigpond.net.au> Message-ID: <01bf01c2641f$15699540$7fcc7ad5@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 44427 Daharja wrote: > Actually, water is more commonly associated with emotion, rather than outright deviousness. But certainly our emotions are a leading *cause* of deviousness. Slytherins are seen as unreliable (or devious) because they do 'anything to achieve their ends' - in other words, their emotions (what they want) are what drives them. Emotional is not the first word that springs to mind to describe Slytherin. Actually when I think about historical Slytherins like Machiavelli, Catherine Medici, Talleyrand and other charming folks like that, it would be about the last word. Gryffindors are much more likely to be driven by emotions. > For me, at least, this is clearly associating Gryffindor with maleness, and Slytherin with femaleness. Even the two symbolic animals - the Lion and Snake - are representative of male and female. The Snake is associated throughout Western (esp Greek and old testament/Hebrew) mythology with femaleness. Don't know about Paganism, Greek or other symbolisms, but you can't use Hebrew to support this theory. Every noun has a gender, and the snake is undoubtedly male. > > Furthermore, why have the houses founded by women (Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw) taken a very secondary role throughout the books? Up until Cedric Diggory, very few students from either house (if any, arguably) were portrayed with any level of detail. Even Harry's would-be love interest, Cho Chang, is little more than a caricature. Here we go again. But the house currently managed by a woman is the most important/noble/popular/what not? How inconvinient. But of course McGonagall does not really move the plot or whatever is the excuse that allows to write her off. > > Finally, is JKR aware of the sexual bias in her books and is it intentional? Personally, she striked me as a very intelligent writer, and I've no doubt she is fully aware of the sexism inherent in HP. But (to be totally cynical) she's also aware that you don't make money outside the status quo. I agree that her presentation is intentional and I've no doubt she derives a great pleasure from pulling people's chains. Irene From tmarends at yahoo.com Tue Sep 24 23:13:57 2002 From: tmarends at yahoo.com (Tim) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 23:13:57 -0000 Subject: pronunciation In-Reply-To: <20020924225240.81740.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44428 First Melody wrote: > > So when I read "Sirius", I head *cirrus* in my head....how am I suppost to pronounce Sirius, or rather, how do ya'll pronouce Sirius? With my Texas southern accent, I pronouce it as sear-us. Like the clouds. Am I "suppost" to pronounce it ser-e-us to be properly British? > Then Andrea wrote: > I pronounce it "seer-ee-us",in three syllables. As someone just pointed out, it's as in Sirius the dog star. > I respond: I've always pronounced it Sy-rus, although I do see where you could pronounce it Sy-ree-us. But then, I'm from California. From suicidal_mickey_mouse at hotmail.com Tue Sep 24 20:25:12 2002 From: suicidal_mickey_mouse at hotmail.com (Katherine Adams) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 20:25:12 +0000 Subject: Headmasters Personifications? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44429 I tend to agree with what the responses were. I hadn't heard that interview from Rawling, but knowing what we know of Hagrid, I would have guessed either Ravenclaw or Gryfindor. Interesting theories on Snape, btw. There have been discussions at length on the symbolism behind the house colors, which raised another question: do you think that the headmasters of each house are personifications of the house in which they belong? And on a broader note, what is the likelihood of Dumbledor as a Divine Good personified? Harry Human Good personified? And contrary, Voldemort as Evil personified? And Malfoy as Human Evil personified? Or am I being too presumptuous? ~Spookykat _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From dragonettefish at yahoo.com Tue Sep 24 21:23:13 2002 From: dragonettefish at yahoo.com (Jessica) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 21:23:13 -0000 Subject: Ron and Cedric-Just a coincidence or do they have simmilar fates? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44430 Eariler Richelle Votaw posted whose wand contained what. They were: Unicorn hair (Ron and Cedric) Veela hair (Fleur Delacour) Dragon heartstring (Viktor Krum) Phoenix feather (Harry and Tom Riddle/Voldemort) I agree Richelle that Fantastic Beasts & Where to Find Them is appropriate cannon. I think the wand symbolizes what may become of each person and what they are like. For example, Harry and Voldemort are very much alike and they're wands come from the same animal. Also, Fleur is a veela and she very much acts like one. The Dragon is a brave yet secluded animal who lives a long time. This is just like Victor. Maybe Victor will come back later in the books. Anyways, Maybe Ron and Cedric will have simmilar fates and furthermore maybe Harry and Voldemort will. What I mean by fates could be many things. Ron may die just like Cedric by Voldemort. He may get his good grades and popularity like he has always striven for like Cedric. Maybe Harry and Voldemort will both die at the same time or Harry will become like Voldemort or maybe Im completely wrong but you never know. I think Im on the right track. If you want to learn more about names I would consider going here since I know everyone was looking for name meanings earlier here: http://www.hogwarts.esmartweb.com/name.htm. Thank You for listening to my little shpeel. Dragonettefish Who is gonna be in so much trouble if she doesn't start her homework soon. From haunted.mansion at verizon.net Tue Sep 24 23:25:36 2002 From: haunted.mansion at verizon.net (Kronos) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 19:25:36 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] pronunciation References: Message-ID: <3D90F470.6BDFF254@verizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 44431 Melody wrote: > But the point I do want to make is...how am I suppost to pronounce > Sirius, or rather, how do ya'll pronouce Sirius? With my Texas > southern accent, I pronouce it as sear-us. Like the clouds. Am I > "suppost" to pronounce it ser-e-us to be properly British? Sirius Pronunciation: (sir'E-us) n. 1. Astron.the Dog Star, the brightest-appearing star in the heavens, located in the constellation Canis Major. 2. Also,Seirios. Class. Myth. a. the dog of Orion. b. Icarius' faithful dog, who was changed into a star. from InfoPlease.com (http://www.infoplease.com/ipd/A0654948.html) -Kronos From john at queerasjohn.com Tue Sep 24 23:56:42 2002 From: john at queerasjohn.com (Queer as John) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 00:56:42 +0100 Subject: ADMIN: Pronunciation thread In-Reply-To: <3D90F470.6BDFF254@verizon.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44432 **The Mods pop out onto the list in black catsuits, holding replica firearms in manner of Charlie's Angels** Hi folks. Please remember, especially on the "pronunication" thread, that you must include canon in every post. As far as we know, the only character with a definite pronunciation is Hermione (from GOF). Anyone else has to have been mentioned by JKR in a chat. If you have links to an audio excerpt (legal, please!) of that chat, feel free to send it in. Remember -- Keep it Canon -- Keep it Safe! (Yes, we know. Wrong book. :D) Thanks! We know that these threads are fun, but they're even more fun on OTChatter, which has been a bit quiet lately. Magically yours, --Queer as John, for the Moderator Team From Malady579 at hotmail.com Tue Sep 24 23:59:42 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 23:59:42 -0000 Subject: Sirius' House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44433 Crysti asked: >>>> Ok, tell me if this is new to anyone, or if this is a really old thought that just came into my head, but who else has thought that at least Sirius should be a Slytherin? I mean, Hagrid was totally convinced that Sirius was a Death Eater, right? And Hagrid said that there wasn't a Death Eater that didn't come from Slytherins. <<<< I reply: First, welcome to the group. :) This was actually the first question I asked myself upon reading PoA. Seems the evidence could speak in many directions. I find two theroies possible. 1. Black is a Slytherin. This is based on the fact that the WW assumes Black is a deadeater based on his murderous tendencies. Since Hagrid does say that "there's not a witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't in Slytherin", then we can put two and two together and say that Black was in Slytherin. or 2. Black is a Gryffindor. JKR loves to put her "favorite" characters in Gryffindor. I know that is a huge leap to say, but she does seem to favor that house. Most of the good and active characters are a Gryffindor. So from our reading of the series, we naturally and subliminally place James, Black, and Lupin in Gryffindor. That is the only reason we would place Black there. Since Lupin and James seem like natural Gryffindors, and Black is thier bestfriend, we place Black in Gryffindor. I see many holes in these theories. Since we as the reader place James automatically in Gryffindor, we assume his bestfriend Black is with him. Easy enough to assumes as many have said here. This can not be assumes of course, but is rather natural. Those who we spend the most time with are usually our closest friends. Being in different houses makes it rather difficult to find time outside of classes and commonrooms to become bonded like brothers. So then my opinion, based solely on Hagrid's words, is that we can place Black in Slytherin and also James, oh and thus also Lupin and Pettigrew. That way, Black can be perceived as bad, and the other three can still be good. Also, Pettigrew can be bad after PoA and still follow the "rules". Of course, this goes against our perceived reading of characters which is what JKR loves. Gryffindor is the best house only because we have been told it is...now. Maybe it wasn't always. Slytherin could of been the "cool" house to be in before a lot of them turned up to become deadeaters. JKR is meticulous about her "major" details which I believe this is. If not then this is a FLINT and an annoying one at that. So either Black was in Slytherin, or Hagrid has his facts wrong, or JKR made an error. Melody From hp_lexicon at yahoo.com Wed Sep 25 00:08:43 2002 From: hp_lexicon at yahoo.com (hp_lexicon) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 00:08:43 -0000 Subject: pronunciation, teachers' houses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44434 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tim" wrote: > > I've always pronounced it Sy-rus, although I do see where you could > pronounce it Sy-ree-us. But then, I'm from California. The correct pronunciation is SEE-ree-us, since it's clearly a reference to the star, which is pronounced that way. Some names are not so clear, but this one is. For what it's worth, the movie got the pronunciation of Voldemort wrong. Rowling pronounced it VOL-de-more in her interview with Diane Rheem on NPR, so voicing that final 't' is not correct. As for which house various ex-Hogwarts folks belonged to, here's my guesses: Dumbledore: Gryffindor Hermione said so, although she was just repeating what she'd heard. I consider the evidence that the sword of Gryffindor was in his office and that his door knocker is shaped like a griffon to be also suggestive, if not proof. Since I agree with the theory that Fawkes once belonged to Gryffindor, that also to me suggests that Dumbledore is associated with that house. McGonagall: Gryffindor I agree with whomever said that the heads of houses were in those particular houses themselves. There is no canon proof of this, however. Snape: Sytherin See above for McGonagall, with the added note that he is mentioned as hanging around with a gang of Slytherins who all became Death Eaters. Sure, that doesn't prove it, but it seems by far the most likely. Flitwick: Ravenclaw Head of that house, but also clearly brilliant. Sprout: Hufflepuff Head of that house. Hagrid: Gryffindor Because JKR said so. Lily Evans: Gryffindor Because JKR said so. James Potter: Gryffindor Because JKR as much as said so, although it isn't for certain. The fact that Rowling is clearly telling the saga of Gryffindor in these books, ("Gryffindor, of course!" she writes in an interview), this seems all the more certain. Sirius Black, Peter Pettigrew, Remus Lupin: Gryffindor I agree that all the friends (not the "Marauders," since that term is singular on the map and therefore didn't refer to the creators of that map) were in Gryffindor. Sirius knows far too much about Gryffindor Tower to be anything other than a Gryffindor. Molly (now Weasley): Gryffindor She sneaks back into Gryffindor Tower after a late night stroll with Arthur, mentioned in GF. Arthur Weasley: Gryffindor This isn't mentioned anywhere specifically, but it seems clear to me that all the Weasleys were in Gryffindor. True, Molly was sneaking back into Gryffindor Tower alone that night, but that was because Arthur had been caught by the caretaker. He is a close ally of Dumbledore as well. Lucius Malfoy and Narcissa: Slytherin Malfoy states that his whole family was in Slytherin. SOme have suggested that Narcissa might not have been, but I think it's highly unlikely that a Malfoy would marry someone who wasn't in the "correct" house. Pomfrey: Hufflepuff This is a complete guess on my part. Just seems likely. Her personality--serving others--seems Hufflepuffian. Hooch: no idea Quirrell: no idea, but not Gryffindor, I don't think Moody: Gryffindor Part of Dumbledore's group of allies, it seems, possibly a comtemporary of his Fudge: no idea He certainly has some Slytherin traits, though. More than any other, I would even say. Trelawney: no idea Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon From nplyon at yahoo.com Wed Sep 25 00:23:52 2002 From: nplyon at yahoo.com (Nicole L.) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 17:23:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: {FILK} Gryffindor Fight Song Message-ID: <20020925002352.25364.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44435 (To the tune of the Michigan State University fight song) Dedicated to Gail (I forgive you for being a U of M grad ;) ) and Ellen, the Pottering Beekeeper (always glad to find another MSU alum!) (Note: Ellen, while your original filk was brilliant, I found myself begging Harry-style, "Not Slytherin, not Slytherin! So I was compelled to re-filk the MSU fight song for Gryffindor.) On the banks of the great black lake Lies the Gryffindor Tower Theyre brave at heart and daring Unmatched in Quidditch power Gryffindor seekers have keen sight Their Beaters are so bold Noble are their house colors Red and gold Glory for great Gryffindor Watch their Chasers flying Gryffindor will win the match The golden Snitch theyll snatch Fly, fly, fly Keeper blocks the Quaffle pass Beaters the Bludgers bash! Fly, fly, rah team fly Victory for Gryffindor! ~Nicole, who may not be the World's Greatest HP Fan but she *is* the World's Greatest Spartan Fan and Alum and has the dog named Sparty to prove it! __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From olivia at rocketbandit.com Wed Sep 25 01:10:54 2002 From: olivia at rocketbandit.com (Olivia) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 21:10:54 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Profs and Which Houses They were In at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44436 Marina said: "Yeah, but most of the Death Eaters went to school with Snape, and know perfectly well what house he was in, so making him head of Slytherin when he wasn't one isn't going to fool anybody. If anything, if Snape was anything in any other house, and Dumbledore went and made him head of Slytherin, it would only make the Slytherin parents more pissed off and suspicious. "Dumbledore made a *Gryffindor* head of Slytherin house? Those chivalrous morons are taking over everywhere!" Draco would be whining about it all over the school. No, I see no reason to assume Snape was ever anything but a Slytherin." I understand your reasoning but what I was trying to say with my badly worded argument was that there is a "reason to assume Snape was ever anything but a Slytherin," and that's that there is no canon evidence. I doubt Dumbledore would care if the Slytherin parents had a problem with a Gryffindor!Snape being Head of Slytherin. He didn't care when they complained about Hagrid's class, he didn't care when they complained about Hagrid being a giant, and he probably wouldn't care if they complained about Lupin being a werewolf. He said himself during Goblet of Fire that he gets irate owls from parents all the time: "Really, Hagrid, if you are holding out for universal popularity, I'm afraid you will be in this cabin for a very long time," said Dumbledore, now peering sternly over his half-moon spectacles. "Not a week has passed since I became headmaster of this school when I haven't had at least one owl complaining about the way I run it. But what should I do? Barricade myself in my study and refuse to talk to anybody?" (Goblet of Fire, 454) I have my own theories about where Snape was while he was a student. Sure, the obvious would be Slytherin, but if we've learned anything about Harry Potter, is that everything is not always as it seems. Remember reading the first few chapters of Sorcerer's Stone? Didn't you "assume" Snape was the bad guy? All I'm saying, is it's *possible* that Snape was in Gryffindor. As well as any other House. Until there's concrete canon evidence, it can't be declared that he was a Slytherin from day one. Olivia. From rvotaw at i-55.com Wed Sep 25 01:38:24 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 20:38:24 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Profs and Which Houses They were In at Hogwarts References: Message-ID: <011101c26434$3e1166c0$cda0cdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 44437 Spookykat writes: > Based upon current personality traits, which houses do you think Voldemort, > Dumbledore, McGonaghal, Snape, Sirius, Hagrid, etc. did the Sorting Hat send > them to while attending? Oh, goody, just the topic I'd been waiting for. I know it comes around once in a while, so I was biding my time. I have a great many theories on the matter, so get comfortable! :) We'll start with the easy ones: Voldemort--Slytherin, as Tom Riddle IS Voldemort and was in Slytherin. That's fact. Dumbledore--If we can believe Hermione (and when has she been wrong?) he was in Gryffindor. Can't see him as anything else, considering the sword of Godric Gryffindor is in his possession and so on. McGonagall--more than likely Gryffindor. Hagrid--Gryffindor, based on JKR interview. And now the fun begins! First, let me define a term I'm using. "second house" being the alternate house the Sorting Hat could've or may have considered sending them to. Snape--The line must be read VERY carefully, but it is clearly says Snape was "part of a gang of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be death eaters." Unless it's worded wrong, you can't be *part* of a gang of Slytherins if you're not a Slytherin. You can run with a gang of Slytherins, hang out with a gang of Slytherins, etc. But not be "part of a gang of Slytherins." Unless, as I said, the wording slipped by. Anyhow, I do think that Snape's "second house" would be Gryffindor (as in Harry's "second house" would've been Slytherin). Sirius Black--Here it gets tricky. :) I'll explain/elaborate further on. I think he was in Slytherin. James Potter--Gryffindor, most likely. Peter Pettigrew--Hufflepuff ("second house" would've been Slytherin) Hufflepuffs are known for loyalty, right? Sirius Black could've put his trust in that characteristic when he advised the Potters to use Peter for their secret keeper. He thought he'd be loyal, since he was a Hufflepuff. Also, unless there's a lot we don't know about Peter, I see no Gryffindor characteristics. I know he's compared to Neville a lot, but Neville is brave. Just in a very scared, nervous way. But he is brave. Remus Lupin--Ravenclaw. Based on the theory that the Mauraders all came from a different house, it's the only one not taken. :) And he did make a good professor, he must be pretty smart. All right, now time to elaborate. First of all, McGonagall says (at Hogsmeade) of James Potter and Sirius Black "Never saw one without the other, did you?" Flitwick adds "You'd have thought Black and Potter were brothers! Inseparable!" Okay, so what's unusual about that? Best friends are often that way. Look at Ron and Harry. In Snape's words "the dream team." But, of course, they're in the same house. Look at Fred and George. Of course, they are brothers. But they're also in the same house. In the Shrieking Shack, when Lupin is telling the story to Harry, Ron, and Hermione, he says "Sirius thought it would be--er--amusing, to tell Snape all he had to do was prod the knot on the tree trunk with a long stick, and he'd be able to get in after me. Well, of course, Snape tried it--if he'd got as far as this house, he'd have met a full grown werewolf--but your father, who'd heard what Sirius had done, went after Snape and pulled him back, at great risk to his life." Okay, they're inseparable. But suppose they're in different houses? They'd have to go to bed in different dorm rooms. They'd sit at different tables when they're sitting with their houses. Sirius would have plenty of time to talk to Snape without James hearing it. James only heard about it later, apparently only just in time to go and stop Snape. It would also explain why Snape hates Sirius Black so much. Besides the fact he tried to kill him, basically. He was in his own house and tried to kill him. Now, what about after the attempted murder? Dumbledore was aware of it. He told Snape his memory was as good as it ever was. And he forbid Snape (as a student) to tell about Lupin being a werewolf. All four mauraders and Snape were in the same year. Lupin says "Finally, in *our* fifth year, they managed it (animagus transformation)." Emphasis added, but he was talking about Sirius, James, and Peter, of course. Later on Lupin says "Severus was very interested in where I went every month. We were in the same year, you know, and we--er--didn't like each other very much." So it definitely sounds like all five were in the same year. What to do once one of them tries to murder another if he's in the same house? Can't very well sleep in the bed next to him. I think one of them was moved, whether Sirius or Snape, I can't be sure. But I'd venture it was Snape moved to Gryffindor, where he had to look at James Potter every morning when he woke up and remember the Whomping Willow incident. It would also explain how they have such a nice map of Hogwarts, if they had passwords to all four houses. Olivia writes: > I always thought it was part of his act. He's trying to play the part of a > Death Eater, so one would assume he would be in Slytherin. If Dumbledore > were to make him Head of Hufflepuff, it might take away a little of his > thunder. :) Snape as Death Eater is neither very huffley nor puffley, but > he's very Slytherish. Okay, one problem. Snape hasn't always been playing the part of a DE. He WAS a Death Eater! Hickengruendler writes: > I think, that Joanne K. Rowling has stated, that all the Marauders > were in Gryffindor, this includes logically Sirius. Where did you hear that? I have never, ever heard her mention any of the houses of any of the Marauders. > Hagrid is also a > Gryffindor, I think, but this is just a personal feeling. JKR stated in an interview that he was in Gryffindor. Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Sep 25 01:36:39 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 01:36:39 -0000 Subject: Wand cores -Random Thoughts In-Reply-To: <631564453.20020923210212@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44438 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Susanne wrote: > SUSANNE: > Same with the unicorn. I wonder if there is a difference in > the cores between the *freely given* and the *forcefully > taken*. Interesting thought. That also makes me wonder again about cut vs plucked unicorn hair. One thing about Hair is that it will regrow. Nothing is really lost with the loss of a hair. I guess feathers must regrow too, but I don't know enough about birds to understand how that works. Even if normal birds regrow feathers, in my totally unfounded theory, pheonixes area special case (how very convenient for me and my theory), so a feather lost for this purpose is a feather lost forever. Certainly, feathers that are lost as a normal part of the pheonix lifecycle are not lost forever. When Fawkes has his Burning Day while Harry is in Dumbledores office, there is no mention of feathers after the burn. Prior to the burn the bird was molting and dropping feathers like snowflakes. But no mention that the floor was littered with feathers after the burn. So I assume that the feathers burned too. I just think that makes a pheonix feather so much more grand and noble, and helps support my believe that pheonix wands are the 'Royal' wand. Very special wands that only match very special wizards. Got slightly side tracked there. Anyway, I find the 'freely given' vs 'forcefully taken' idea, a very interesting thought and I'm going to spend some time pondering that. >bboy_mn orginally said: > > There is a theory (not mine but I like it) that the Order of > > the Pheonix is really about wizard wands all sharing a > > Fawkes cores which will be used to fight Big_V. > Susanne replied: > But that would mean that Fawkes gave more than the two > previously mentioned feathers, unless Olivander is wrong, or > the theory about other than tail feathers being used is > right . > > Best regards, > Susanne BBOY_MN: The theory goes that The Order of the Pheonix will be a group of the 'old crowd' plus Harry and friends who are the front line forces in the fight against Voldemort. To give themselves an edge in the fight. They will all have wands made using feathers from Fawkes. To give this many feathers is a tremendous sacrifice for Fawkes; an eternal sacrifice. I guess part of the point is that the feathers haven't been given yet. This gives the Order of Pheonix members a special edge if they should confront Voldemort face to face. Again, I stole that particular theory from someone else. Of course, it is also an unfounded theory. Nice talking to you. bboy_mn From rvotaw at i-55.com Wed Sep 25 01:44:49 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 20:44:49 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who was Wormtail supposed to murder?/ Q&A thing/ Potter's money References: Message-ID: <015001c26435$231ad300$cda0cdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 44439 "dcyasser" writes: > Goblet of Fire, in the Riddle House, LV and Wormtail are going over > the plan, discussing the next murder that Wormtail is to commit, > along with Crouch Jr., that will clear the path to get to Harry. > "Come Wormtail, one more death and our path to Harry Potter is clear." > Who is that intended victim? Some versions say "curse" there. I think that makes more sense. "One more curse, and our path to Harry Potter is clear." The curse, of course, being the Imperious Curse the real Mad Eye Moody was placed under. Steve B. writes: > > > 2. Do any of the pets in Harry Potter seem like they're not *really* pets. > > Even though Trevor, Crookshanks and even Pig seem like they might be a little suspicious, I don't think any of them will be people. It's been done. JKR will have something more clever up her sleeve rather than repeat that surprise. Now Crookshanks might have previously belonged to Mrs. Figg, but is definitely still a cat. I thought JKR confirmed in an interview that Crookshanks was part Kneazle and part cat? bugaloo37 writes: > Are the Weasleys poor because they defend muggles? If so, why are > the Potters wealthy? Are the Malfoys wealthy through devious means? > And the Potters wealth gained through more noble pursuits? I know in > the case of the Malfoys and the Potters, that their wealth was > inherited-but that money had to be earned some way-so how was it > done? If anyone has any theories concerning any of the above > questions-please fill me in. Well, I have a little pet theory that the Potters at some point in history owned a/the Sorcerer/Philosopher's stone. Which turned any metal to gold. It's just that the stone is RED and the fact that it makes GOLD that gets me thinking there's got to be a connection. And the fact that Harry has inherited a vault full of gold. Richelle From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Wed Sep 25 01:49:08 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 01:49:08 -0000 Subject: The Profs and Which Houses They were In at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44440 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Olivia" wrote: > Marina said: > "Yeah, but most of the Death Eaters went to school with Snape, and know > perfectly well what house he was in, so making him head of Slytherin > when he wasn't one isn't going to fool anybody. If anything, if Snape > was anything in any other house, and Dumbledore went and made him head > of Slytherin, it would only make the Slytherin parents more pissed off > and suspicious. "Dumbledore made a *Gryffindor* head of Slytherin > house? Those chivalrous morons are taking over everywhere!" Draco > would be whining about it all over the school. > > No, I see no reason to assume Snape was ever anything but a Slytherin." > > > I understand your reasoning but what I was trying to say with my badly > worded argument was that there is a "reason to assume Snape was ever > anything but a Slytherin," and that's that there is no canon evidence. > But there is canon evidence: Snape is head of Slytherin House; he's described as having been "part of a gang of Slytherins"; he's deeply partial to Slytherin, much more partial than mere professional duty as House head would require him to be. This is not conclusive or incontrovertible evidence, but it's evidence nontheless, and it points toward Snape being a Slytherin. There's nothing in canon to say that he wasn't. Sure, there's nothing to make it impossible, but there's also nothing to make it impossible that Minerva McGonagall is having a torrid love affair with Stan Shunpike. That doesn't mean I'm going to believe that she is. > I doubt Dumbledore would care if the Slytherin parents had a problem with a > Gryffindor!Snape being Head of Slytherin. He didn't care when they > complained about Hagrid's class, he didn't care when they complained about > Hagrid being a giant, and he probably wouldn't care if they complained about > Lupin being a werewolf. IIRC, the original argument that I was replying to suggested that Dumbledore made Snape head of Slytherin in order to bolster his image as a Death Eater (presumably because it would help his cover if he should ever go back to spying). My point was if Snape wasn't a Slytherin, such a move would be more likely to weaken his image than strengthen it. Dumbledore may not care what the Slytherin parents think of him, but presumably he cares about the position he's putting Snape into. Also, given the rumor mill that Hogwarts is, I think if Snape was anything other than a Slytherin, word would've gotten around. In fact, it would get around in some totally overblown way. If he was a Gryffindor, everyone would be going around saying he was really a Hufflepuff, and there would be all sorts of elaborate and totally inaccurate theories about how he ended up as head of Slytherin. The student body's total silence on the subject suggests to me that there's nothing there to talk about. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From nplyon at yahoo.com Wed Sep 25 03:17:48 2002 From: nplyon at yahoo.com (Nicole L.) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 20:17:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: {FILK} Heir Harry Message-ID: <20020925031748.77173.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44442 (To the tune of "Prince Ali" from Disney's "Aladdin.") Dedicated to all the members of BUTTERFLIES (We love you, Gred and Forge!!) Ron, Gred, Forge, and Lee Jordan flank Harry and march down the hallway, chanting: Make way! Its Heir Harry! Say hey! Its Heir Harry! Gred and Forge, singing: Hey, clear the way through the Hogwarts halls! Hey Cho! Draco too! All the guys and dolls! Oh come! Be the first from your House to hear his stance! Hey Flint! Better split! Your Quidditch team quit! Are you gonna fear his glance! Heir Harry! Malevolent he! Heir of Slytherin On your knees, begging him please To hear your plea Now pack your bags and get out Or hell make you scream and shout And trust us, he wont show you one bit of mercy! Heir Harry! Nasty is he! Heir of Slytherin He could kick your sorry butt undoutedly! He faced the flying key hordes Beat McGonagalls chess board Hes best friends with the Dark Lord That Heir Harry Hes got a great heap of golden galleons Silver sickles Hes got many more As for coins of huge denominations Has he got a few! Im telling you, counting thems quite a daunting chore! Heir Harry! Scary is he, Heir of Slytherin Lightning scar, avoid a spar Cause hes deadly If I were you, Hufflepuff Id give him all of my stuff And whimper, grovel, and fear this Heir Harry Sung in counterpoint by various students, led by Justin Finch-Fletchley: Theres no question this Harry is heartless Never lily-livered, never gutless Harry is a seriously evil wizard Hes a hexer, hes a fright, a curser! And dont you dare call him a usurper! Or he will transfigure you into a lizard! Hogwarts Students: He can cast all the Unforgiveables (He casts those curses. Those dreaded curses) When you see him you should turn and flee (Hes odious, so odious!) And he plans to get rid of the Muggles They clear out a path, fear his great wrath But baddies promise loyalty to Harry! Heir Harry! Gred and Forge, capering down the hall pretending to be terrified of Harry; their song is joined by the rest of the students at Release some chimaeras, dragons galore: Heir Harry! Spiteful is he! Harry wizard king Yes his monsters are a sight fearsome to see! Wizards and witches its time, Secret Chamber open wide Release some chimaeras, dragons galore Lethifolds and trolls And a manticore Acromantula, nundu, demiguise His quintaped aint pretty! Cower from Heir Harry! ~Nicole, well on her way toward filking each and every Disney song. :) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Sep 25 03:56:58 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 03:56:58 -0000 Subject: Who was Wormtail supposed to murder? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44443 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "dcyasser" wrote: dcyasser wrote: > Goblet of Fire, in the Riddle House, LV and Wormtail are going over > the plan, discussing the next murder that Wormtail is to commit, > along with Crouch Jr., that will clear the path to get to Harry. > "Come Wormtail, one more death and our path to Harry Potter is clear." Who is that intended victim? bboy_mn replies: Sadly, other versions of this book do not say 'one more death'; I believe they say 'one more CURSE'. But I think it is safe to assume that the 'curse' they are referring to, is a death curse. Although, 'curse' could refer to putting Crouch Sr. under the Imperious Curse. In a sense saying, once we have control of Crouch Sr. our path to Harry Potter is clear. I believe it is some UK versions that use the word 'curse'. dcyasser Continues: > Is it Moody? Was Crouch supposed to kill him, but kept him alive, as > he says, to question him about his past and his habits? > And Voldemort doesn't mind the change in plans? Or does he not know > about that? > > "dcyasser" bboy_mn speculates: Since Voldemort needs to capture Crouch Sr in order to get Crouch Jr and have him replace the real Moody, that would make it the next step in the plan, and we could assume that would make Crouch Sr the next casualty. He is the next casualty, but whether he is a casualty of the death curse or the Imperious Curse is not clear. So my guess is Crouch Sr is who he is referring to. Since they were both (Crouch & Moody) extremely active in the fight against Voldemort. I'm pretty sure Big_V intended to kill them both. So the next question is, which one would most likely die first? I think it's safe to assume that one will die before Big_V has Harry, and one will die after. In the story, Crouch Sr. dies first, that re-enforces my belief that he was the intended target. Although, I think the original plan was to kill him later in the story. They needed Moody so Poly-Moody could question him. You never know when something might come up at Hogwarts that would require Poly-Moody to get more information. Dumbledore might start reminiscening about the past and Poly-Moody would have to scramble to get some information on that subject. So logically, then need to keep him around right to the very end. Crouch Sr. on the other hand, could probably go a week without any contact, and while people would worry, knowing he was sick would give them a reasonable explaination for his lack of contact. If the plan was death instead of a curse, then considering that Crouch's presents was less critical, I think they planned to kill him first, and I think they planned to do it before the Triwizard's tournement was over. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. bboy_mn From hpsmarty at aol.com Wed Sep 25 04:06:03 2002 From: hpsmarty at aol.com (hpsmarty) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 04:06:03 -0000 Subject: HPfGU Contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44444 The September contest is still going on! For those of you who missed it, there are two contests -- a puzzle contest and a creative contest -- running concurrently. You have until the end of the month (and maybe a few days after that) to send in your entry. Remember, don't post solutions, comments or questions to the list. Send them to me at hpsmarty at aol.com. Puzzle contest details are repeated below: Here's this month's puzzle contest. This contest is one of my favorite games, which is known by several different names including CATEGORIES. In this game, you have a several words and five different categories and you have to find a words or phrases which begin with each letter of each word. The categories are People, Places, Things, Beings and Terms, and you have three words to work with ? LUPIN, BLACK, and HAGRID. To play the game first pick one of the three words ? LUPIN, BLACK, or HAGRID. Then find something from the Harry Potter books (including FB and QTTA) which corresponds to each category. For example, if you pick LUPIN, you must find a person, place, thing, being and term which starts with each of the letters L, U, P, I and N, for a total of 25 words or phrases. The definitions of the five categories are as follows: "People" is the first OR last name of a HUMAN (includes those who are only part human) character in any of the HP books (including QTTA and FB) . Only humans, so "Harry" or "Potter" is acceptable but "Binns" and "Dobby" are not. "Places" is the name of any place mentioned, in any capacity, in the HP books, for example "Japan" (mentioned in QTTA) or "Dumbledore's Office." It must be a specific place, not a generic term like "room" or "station." "Things" is any magical object mentioned in the HP books, including titles of books, and names of specific magical items such as potions or plants. It must be something that you can touch, and it must be MAGICAL. "Beings" includes both names and types of any non-human beings or creatures mentioned in the HP books. "Peruvian Vipertooth", "Vipertooth", "Norbert", and "dragon" are all acceptable. "Terms" includes anything MAGICAL that doesn't fit into the above 4 categories, including spells, MoM departments and jobs, Hogwarts classes, and languages. Scoring is as follows: You get 2 points for each category in which you are the ONLY one to have that word or phrase. One point is subtracted from your score for any categories you leave blank. Here is an example: Here's an example, using the word SNAPE. Suppose there were only two entries, from two smart listmembers, Smellydog11 and Harrysbimbo, as shown below. Smellydog11 left 3 categories blank and Harrysbimbo left 5 categories blank, so they receive minus 3 and minus 5 points, respectively. Neither one gets credit for Scabbers, Nimbus, Norbert, NEWT, Azkaban, Ernie, Eeylops, or Elves because these words were on both lists. Smellydog11 gets 28 points for her remaining categories, minus 3 for the blanks, for a total of 25 points. Harrysbimbo gets 24 points minus 5 points for a total of 19 points. Entry 1 ? Smellydog11 Person Place Things Beings Terms S Snape Shrieking Sorting Scabbers Seeker Shack Hat N Neville ? Nimbus Norbert NEWT A Albus Azkaban Armadillo ? Astronomy Bile P Peter ? Prefects Puffskein Parselmouth Who Gained Power E Ernie Eeylops Every Elves Erised Owl Flavor Emporium Beans Entry 2 ? Harrysbimbo Person Place Things Beings Terms S Slytherin Slytherin Standard Scabbers Squib Common Book of Room Spells N Newt ? Nimbus Norbert NEWT A Aberforth Azkaban ? ? Accio P Pettigrew ? Polyjuice Peeves Parseltongue Potion E Ernie Eeylops ? Elves Exploding Snap Owl Emporium A few notes: 1. You can enter up to THREE times, with each of the three words (Lupin, Black and Hagrid) but only one entry per name is allowed. 2. You only get points if you are the only one to come up with a particular word or phrase, so the more obscure the better. On the other hand, maybe no one will choose words like "Harry" or "Hermione" because they are so obvious. Hmmmm. 3. I can assure you that there are at least 2 possible entries for each of the 80 possible combinations, and many, many more for most of them. 4. Don't post your answers to the list! Email them to me at hpsmarty at aol.com. That's hpsmarty AT aol DOT com. ?Joywitch M. Curmudgeon From hpsmarty at aol.com Wed Sep 25 04:10:32 2002 From: hpsmarty at aol.com (hpsmarty) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 04:10:32 -0000 Subject: HPfGU Creative Contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44445 There have been very few entries to the creative contest, so far. C'mon, guys, I know there are some creative types out there. Somewhere. Here's a repeat of the contest: Here is the September creative/speculative contest. Feel free to contribute as many entries as you want, and to both this and the puzzle. This contest is speculative. In fact it's very, very speculative. It will also require some creativity. The object is to come up with the most outrageous, outlandish, off-the-wall ship ? that is, possible romantic relationship ? among two characters in the HP books. The things is, you have to come up with ACTUAL, DIRECT evidence from the books to support your ship. This contest is inspired by Cindy C. (aka Sin DC or The Strawberry Moderator Tart), who came up with the following idea as a defense against an overwhelming number of shipping posts: >I have decided to defect to the shippers and hereby >propose my own theory about who Hermione will wind up with *when she >is of legal age*: >::drumroll:: >Mad-Eye Moody! >It is *so* obvious, once you think of it. The evidence: >1. When Hermione first sees Moody, she is repulsed: "What happened >to him? . . . What happened to his *face*?" she says. Meanwhile, >Moody is "totally indifferent" to his lukewarm welcome in the Great >Hall. That is always what happens in a good romance: shock, >followed by an irresistible impulse to get to know the other person >better, which of course is not immediately shared. >2. The man impresses the woman with emasculating her enemy: Moody >turns Draco into a ferret. How can Hermione fail to notice Moody now? >3. Moody demonstrates his power: He overpowers, tortures and kills >spiders right in front of Hermione. Hermione starts to appreciate >the "bad boy" side of Moody. He only stops torturing the spider when >Hermione tells him to stop, showing how she can bend him to her will. >4. Romantic tension: Hermione objects to having students placed >under the Imperius Curse. Moody shows her the door. She >submits: "Hermione went very pink and muttered something about not >wanting to leave." Tell me her knees weren't weak as she sank back >into her seat. >5. Moody finally falls for Hermione: "Moody's magical eye quivered >as it rested on Hermione. 'You're another one who might think about >a career as an Auror,' he told her. 'Mind works the right way, >Granger.' Hermione flushed pink with pleasure." Roll the credits! >It all fits. Moody is missing a number of teeth, and Hermione's >parents are dentists. It is simply meant to be. OK, you got it? Send me a description of the strangest SHIP you can think up, and back it up with canon evidence. And don't forget: DON'T POST CONTEST RESPONSES TO THE LIST. Send them to me at hpsmarty at aol.com (That's hpsmarty AT aol DOT com.) ?Joywitch M. Curmudgeon From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Sep 25 04:13:50 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 04:13:50 -0000 Subject: The Houses Mystery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44446 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Christopher Nuttall" wrote: Christopher Nuttall originally wrote: > > I've often been puzzled by the contradiction between Hagrid's > assertion that all the dark wizards came from Sythenian house bboy_mn responds: I don't think we can take something that Hagrid said in a casual conversation and treat it as absolute fact. We all exagerate when we are trying to emphasize a point, so I think Hagrid did just that, he overstated himself to emphasized that Slytherin house has turned out a vast majority of Dark Wizards. But I don't think it is a statement of absolute historical fact. Just a generalization to make a point. bboy_mn From siskiou at earthlink.net Wed Sep 25 04:40:22 2002 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 21:40:22 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wand cores -Random Thoughts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <12990268457.20020924214022@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 44447 Hi, Tuesday, September 24, 2002, 6:36:39 PM, Steve wrote: > To give themselves an edge in the fight. > They will all have wands made using feathers from Fawkes. To give this > many feathers is a tremendous sacrifice for Fawkes; an eternal > sacrifice. I guess part of the point is that the feathers haven't been > given yet. But if your theory is right > I just think that makes a pheonix feather so much more grand and > noble, and helps support my believe that pheonix wands are the 'Royal' > wand. Very special wands that only match very special wizards. what would happen to the "Order of the Phoenix" groups old wands? When does a wizard/witch know it's time for a new wand? And wouldn't it be awfully convenient if all the "old crowd" were all of a sudden chosen by phoenix feather core wands? And if they just have them made, as you said, would they be as powerful as when the wand chooses? Or do you mean, only the people from the old crowd who are chosen by the phoenix feather wands would actually become part of the Order of the Phoenix, and the "rejects" would be out? I'm not sure if I'm making sense. I've had a horrible migraine for days, now, and my brain power is not at its best. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Wed Sep 25 04:58:09 2002 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 04:58:09 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] pronunciation Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44448 > >Me: >Ok, in my defense, I have always been terrible at pronouncing words >correctly. When I first read "Snape", I heard *snap* in my head, and >he has been *Snap* ever since. So when I read "Sirius", I head >*cirrus* in my head. Last weekend I was telling my mom the discussing >this group was having over Sirius, and she laughed at the way I >pronouced Sirius and that I confused the two words. Sadly, it never >dawned on me that the word for the clouds was spelled cirrus not >sirius. I can memorize thousands of pages of history and Harry >Potter, but be expected to remember words' spelling...impossible. I >sit here now with a unabridged dictionary within arms distance. > Hey, I understand completely. > But the point I do want to make is...how am I suppost to pronounce >Sirius, or rather, how do ya'll pronouce Sirius? With my Texas >southern accent, I pronouce it as sear-us. Like the clouds. Am I >"suppost" to pronounce it ser-e-us to be properly British? > >Oh, and also, the sweet lady part above. It makes me sound so old. >Gee, that dear, old, confused lady who can't keep her words straight. > Sorry, but I'm only 25, and I do mean well. :) > Absolutely no insult is intended. :-) I read a lot of Jane Austen, and also I'm an SCA member (and that's a huge OT discussion which I simply will not enter into here), and "lady" is a very polite way to refer to a female. To me, either "woman" or "girl" would sound really insulting to write in a public forum, and I simply won't do that. :-) As far as canon support - the pronunciation for "Sirius" comes of astronomy classes ("seer-ee-us") and of course is amendable to local dialect. :-) They take astronomy at Hogwarts, so there's your tenuous canonical link. Likewise, "cirrus" is out of my climatology classes, both at the esteemed University of Washington, my alma mater. :-) Felinia, a 42-year-old sweet yet formidable lady _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Wed Sep 25 05:24:39 2002 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 05:24:39 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Harry a pureblood? according to whom? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44449 Okay: at what point does one stop being a "half-blood" or "Muggle-born" and start being a "pureblood"? My belief is that is must happen, and that there is probably a generational point at which one becomes regarded as "pureblood". I think that the "magic allele" is a spontaneous but evidently not unheard of mutation, and that someone like Hermione is quite obviously magical though born of muggle parents. I don't thik it's mandatory that she has magical and then squib blood back there somewhere. To assume that would be to assume that wizards were a race apart and had always existed apart since the dawn of humanity/wizardity; and I don't think that's the way JKR is writing. I would think that probably there is some sort of tacit understood rule, for those who cared to track such things, that say someone like Hermione was born of pure muggle parentage - first generation. She married a "pureblood" like Ron, and they reproduced - their children are "halfbloods" but all wizards and witches. Say in the third generation those children all marry either purebloods or halfbloods like themselves, thereby further "strengthening" the "pure wizard strain". Let's say by generation four, one squib has appeared in the lot just becuase the mutation has naturally weakened over time = mutations tend to do that, they don't breed true - but there are 15 other variously combined siblings and cousins who are now accepted as "purebloods" by the wizarding community - largely becauase no one is there to wave a large genealogical chart in front of everyone else showing their antecedents. I think some dynamic like this is logical, or else Draco wouldn't have aything to do with anyone else. And whatever the Malfoys come up with to say about the Weasleys, accusations about their bloodline is not among the charges. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From fyredriftwood at yahoo.com Wed Sep 25 05:56:55 2002 From: fyredriftwood at yahoo.com (Fyre Wood) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 05:56:55 -0000 Subject: Snape a Gryffindor? (was:Re: The Profs and Which Houses They were In ) In-Reply-To: <20020924183341.96656.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44450 Primrose Burrows was kind enough to reply to a post I wrote earlier:> > > >>>>Fyre Wood wrote: > > Snape, Sirius, and the other Marauders-- > >I still hold to the theory that Snape was the fifth housemate in the > >house of Gryffindor when all five of them attended. I know >GoF > mentioned that Snape hung out with a gang of Slytherins, but >perhaps > he was the *only* Gryffindor in the group and he was considered one > >of them. Primrose then said: > I like the idea that Snape was a Gryffindor, but if he was, how and why did he become the head of Slytherin? > > > Fyre Wood (ME) Replies: How about this: Snape has just decided to switch sides right before Voldy is defeated. He approaches Dumbledore and pleads with him to let him turn spy so he won't be captured by the ministry. Dumbledore agrees and says on two conditions: 1. Snape has to take up a vacant teaching possition at Hogwarts, which is potions. 2. He also has to fulfill the Slytherin Head of House. By obliging with these two, Snape would then be save from the Ministry and all other aspects of Evil. Hahaha. How's that for a theory?! ________________ Primrose also said: > ~primrose, holding onto the S.A.A.B. (Slytherins aren't All Bad) flag. Fyre Wood (ME) Replies: Ah yes, I have one of those in my right hand, while I proudly wave the NINE flag (Neville is NOT evil). --Fyre Wood, who has just created a baby pool for JK Rowling http://www.angelfire.com/ca7/dracolovesharry/babypool.html From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Wed Sep 25 05:59:21 2002 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 05:59:21 +0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44451 _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Wed Sep 25 06:14:28 2002 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 06:14:28 +0000 Subject: Location of Durmstrang Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44452 _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From daharja at bigpond.net.au Wed Sep 25 04:26:17 2002 From: daharja at bigpond.net.au (Leanne Daharja Veitch) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 14:26:17 +1000 Subject: Color Symbolism and animagi References: <1032926222.3198.57153.m1@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <3D913AE9.655B702A@bigpond.net.au> No: HPFGUIDX 44453 "Irene Mikhlin" wrote: Daharja wrote: > For me, at least, this is clearly associating Gryffindor with maleness, and Slytherin with femaleness. Even the two symbolic animals - the Lion and Snake - are representative of male and female. The Snake is associated throughout Western (esp Greek and old testament/Hebrew) mythology with femaleness. Irene wrote: <> Actually, I was referring to the Snake in OT *mythology*, not language. It's indisputable that the Serpent is associated with femaleness (the story of Eve, for example!) not only in the OT, but also throughout much of Western mythology. In Pagan mythology, the Serpent is sacred to the Goddess. Irene wrote: <> I was actually discussing the house colours and attributes, so McGonagall *is* pretty much irrelevant to the topic, but when one is keen to discredit an argument, irrelevancies do have a habit of creeping in! But referring back to house colours, animals etc and their meanings, the association with Gryffindor (male) and Slytherin (female) keeps recurring. And your argument conveniently fails to validate the marked absence of the female-founded houses in the chief battle between good and evil in the HP series. Of course, the entire series is from Harry's perspective, so one would expect Gryffindor to take a leading role (as it does), but a more balanced role of male and female imagery / associations would have been welcome. However, when it comes to animals there *are* a few interesting points to note. I'm particularly interested in Crookshanks. I noted that Dumbledore's auburn hair (in his youth) was referred to for the first time directly before the appearance of Crookshanks (towards the end of CS p183, and early in PA (p49), respectively). Dumbledore's crooked nose is mentioned quite regularly throughout the books. Crookshanks is both ginger and 'crooked' (and definately male) - merely coincidence? It's also interesting to note that Animagi seem generally to be of larger size than ordinary animals of their type. Scabbers is referred to repeatedly as 'large and fat', Black is an 'enormous' black dog, Rita Skeeter is a 'large, fat beetle' and Crookshanks is 'either a very big cat or quite a small tiger'. Crookshanks also appears in Diagon Alley immediately Harry goes to live in the Leaky Cauldron in PA. Crookshanks appears at the door of Harry's dormitory when Black is on the prowl, almost as if he is guarding him. Then (and I am sure I have failed to point out several other instances of note), there is Black's (?) comment that Crookshanks is "the most intelligent of his kind I've ever met" (PA, p267). Finally, it would make sense that Dumbledore, as the greatest Wizard of his time, would also be an animagus (especially if such less able Wizards as Pettigrew can be animagi). I'm suggesting (if this hasn't already been suggested), that Dumbledore may well be Crookshanks. It is also interesting to note that Harry only moved to the Weasley's in GF *after* Crookshanks had been installed there (it is mentioned that both Hermione and Crookshanks are already at the Weasley's when Harry arrives). A protection measure? Possibly. Daharja XXX From myphilosophy2001 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 25 05:28:37 2002 From: myphilosophy2001 at yahoo.com (myphilosophy2001) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 05:28:37 -0000 Subject: The Houses Mystery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44454 bboy_mm wrote: > We all exagerate when we are trying to emphasize a point, so I think > Hagrid did just that, he overstated himself to emphasized that > Slytherin house has turned out a vast majority of Dark Wizards. But > I don't think it is a statement of absolute historical fact. Just a > generalization to make a point. This brings up an interesting idea. I think it's entirely possible that JKR is going to do for the various houses at Hogwarts what she has begun to do for the various nationalities/social classes/financial stratas/"races" in GoF. In other words, in GoF JKR begins to make her message against stereotypes and prejudiced, unproven judgments quite clear. There is Hagrid, a kind, gentle soul who is nonetheless the target of persecution because of his giant heritage and the generalized perceptions of giants. There's Hermione, a gifted, talented witch, whose place in the WW is continually challenged and questioned because she is not of full wizard blood. There's Lupin, the beloved and generous professor, who can't keep a regular job (we can assume this because of the tattered condition of his clothing and case) because, despite his effectiveness as an educator, he is deemed dangerous because he's a werewolf (a condition that he can actually make pretty much unharmful with the Wolfsbane Potion). There are the House-Elves, who are widely and unquestioningly perceived as natural born slaves, creatures who are entirely unfulfilled when not harnessed to a "master" and doing his bidding. But Dobby proves this assumption false -- most house elves may have internalized this rhetoric, but not him. And if not him, than there are surely others who share his disposition. In this way, JKR could take the same "don't judge a book by its cover" logic and apply it to the four houses of Hogwarts. Hogwarts, in a sense, exists as a miniature community unto itself, making the four houses a representation of varying social groups: the warrior knights (Gryffindor), the worker bees (Hufflepuff), the academia (Ravenclaw), and the cruel, cowardly elitists (Slytherin). However, if sweeping generalizations are false and unacceptable in the wider world JKR depicts, it only follows that they are at Hogwarts. Hagrid, though sweet and lovable, has been known to fall victim to Prevailing societal stereotypes. He reinforced the perception of Goblins as mean, greedy types to Harry in SS/PS. Thus, it's safe to assume that Hagrid's statement about Slytherin House could also be a result of stereotype. If not all giants are murderous and mean, perhaps not all Slytherins are fated to become dark wizards. Furthermore, maybe not all Gryffindors are destined to prove themselves heroic and of high integrity. I think the Sorting Hat puts a student in the house whose traits he or she has the most potential to embody, but, as JKR has illustrated time and again, it is an individual's conscious choice to do "what is easy and what it right." If JKR does follow this track with the four houses, Snape could just as easily be a Gryffindor as a Slytherin. Sirius and James a Slytherin as a Gryffindor. Wormtail a Gryffindor or Hufflepuff as a Gryffindor. The End ;-P -Jessica (Moonstruck) From haunted.mansion at verizon.net Wed Sep 25 02:44:01 2002 From: haunted.mansion at verizon.net (Kronos) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 22:44:01 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Houses Mystery - All Dark Wizards come from Slytherin References: Message-ID: <3D9122F1.4D04B316@verizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 44455 pickle_jimmy wrote: > > If the statement "there hasn't been a wizard go bad that wasn't in > slytherin" was true: > > 1) Why would people even suspect Harry of opening the CoS - He's in > Gryfindor First time for everything. > 2) Why would Hagrid be accused of opening the CoS - As I understand, > he wasnt in slytherin See above answer. > 3) If your Hogwarts house was such a great predictor of "Darkness" > why not: > a) not permit student's into Hogwarts that are chosen for slytherin > b) round up slytherins and send them to azkaban (ok, maybe a little > harsh) Here's the flaw in that logic: Dark Wizards / Deatheaters are a subset of the Group called Slytherin. It must therefore follow that while all dark wizards are Slytherin, not all slytherin are dark wizards. > 4) If every "Dark" wizard is from Slytherin, people would constantly > argue about the Houses of Sirius, James, Peter, Lupin, etc. > > My 2 Cents... > > I think the statement is "off the cuff", and refers to the fact that > many of the Dark Wizards (but not all) came from Slytherin, and have > the disposition of Salazar Slytherin - who didn't like muggles, and > didn't want them at Hogwarts. But that's not what Hargrid said. In any event, we're put back where we started in the whole case... we must assume one of two conditions is true. 1) Hagrid is correct: Every Dark Wizard in the Wizarding World is a product of Slytherin House, or: 2) Hagrid is not correct: There have been Dark Wizards from other Houses of Hogwarts. Sadly, based on Hagrid's past performances, I'm inclined to believe that his statement was a bit ... shall we say, exaggerated. -Kronos From lupinesque at yahoo.com Wed Sep 25 11:02:11 2002 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 11:02:11 -0000 Subject: The Houses Mystery - All Dark Wizards come from Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44456 pickle_jimmy wrote: > 1) Why would people even suspect Harry of opening the CoS - He's in > Gryfindor I know! How dare they? Because he's an inexplicably powerful wizard, a legend from age 15 months. His defeat(s) of Voldemort might make one assume he'd be the last person to open the Chamber, but it does suggest him as the only rival to Voldemort most students can imagine (other than Dumbledore, of course). Once his ability to speak Parseltongue is known, it's easy to recast his mysterious background as a dangerous rather than a good thing. See Ernie's ingenious argument in chapter 11. Even those who believe all dark wizards come from Slytherin are probably open to discovering a new threat lurking in Gryffindor-- unless, of course, they're Gryffindors. Amy Z ---------------------------------------------------------------------- One minute she says she's gone to let the cat in The next thing I know, she's mumbling in Latin. She cut the stars out of the sky and baked them in a pie, that's how I know she's got a new spell "She's Got A New Spell," Billy Bragg ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From potter76 at libero.it Wed Sep 25 10:25:03 2002 From: potter76 at libero.it (Rita) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 12:25:03 +0200 (ora legale Europa occ.) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Profs and Which Houses They were In at Hogwarts+ Sorting +Patel/Patil Mystery References: Message-ID: <3D918EFF.000001.22683@i3a2c5> No: HPFGUIDX 44457 Katherine Adams: >> Based upon current personality traits, which houses do you think Voldemort, > >Dumbledore, McGonaghal, Snape, Sirius, Hagrid, etc. did the Sorting Hat send > them to while attending? >> ~Spookykat As many others have pointed out we already know about Voldemort, Dumbledore, Hagrid, Lucius and the suggestion that the Heads were former members makes very much sense (once a Gryffindor, always a Gryffindor; the Sorting Hat sees deep inside yourself and knows your hidden qualities -Neville's courage for instance- obviously one usually has more than one trait that defines his/her personality, see Harry's sorting, but we could assume that the Hat knows a bit about how someone will turn out to be, if in that person's life is bravery or wisdom that it's going to play a bigger part); so i agree with Bugaloo37: >So working on that theory, I think we can assume the following: >McGonagall was in Gryffyndor. Snape in Slytherin. Who I think is also quite right when says: >As for Sirius, Lupin, and Pettigrew, because of their close friendship to James >Potter, I have always assumed they were in Gryffyndor. I am basing >this on the fact that there does not seem to be many "cross-house" >friendships- at least, not that fall into the "best friend"/ >confidant status. [cut] >Another assumption can be made in >regards to Arthur and Molly Weasley, based on their general >characteristics, I would assume they too were in Gryffyndor. Here I give 'substance' to your assumption: in PS Ron says to Harry that his Mum and Dad were in Gryffindor while on the Hogwarts Express (ch. 6). In a previous post Bugaloo also said: >According to Dumbledore, the >hesitation by the Sorting Hat was a result of part of >Voldemort "passing into Harry"-the end result of the failed avada >kedavra curse. Wasn't Dumbl. only referring to the gift of Parseltongue and some other not-yet-shown powers that Vold. is supposed to have passed to Harry through the failed curse?("Unless I'm much mistaken, he transferred some of his own powers to you the night he gave you that scar" CS, last chapter). As I understood it, the esitation of the SH was due to Harry's having some of the qualities of the Slytherin along with some traits of the Gryffindor and "Not a bad mind, either" which I suppose means that it could have also considered placing him in Ravenclaw. By Harry's reaction the SH knew that H would never use "any means to achieve [his] ends" and so put him in Gr. I'm left wondering why not Ravenclaw as H had no objection to that House.It's obviously due to the fact that Harry is the hero and heroes are Gryffindors by definition -daring, brave, chivalrous- but still I don't like to see Ravenclaw dismissed like that (as someone that, for lack of any other quality and having always been a good student, would have been probably placed in " wise, old Ravenclaw") Now I have a question which has nothing to do with the topic: In my British edition of the books, Harry's fellow Gryffindor is called Parvati Patil but in many reviews, articles and essays on HP I found that she's referred to as Parvati Patel; the other day I also saw on the screencaps of JKR's drafts of the school list (taken from the Christmas special last year) that she wrote Pat_e_l; so, what's going on here?Did she change her mind about how to spell the surname or it is a Bloomsbury decision? can anyone help me solve the mystery? R. From ehawkes at iinet.net.au Wed Sep 25 10:40:46 2002 From: ehawkes at iinet.net.au (Emma Hawkes) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 18:40:46 +0800 Subject: All Dark Wizards come from Slytherin Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44458 Pickle Jimmy wrote: >I think the statement is "off the cuff", and refers to the fact that >many of the Dark Wizards (but not all) came from Slytherin, and have >the disposition of Salazar Slytherin - who didn't like muggles, and >didn't want them at Hogwarts. I have always assumed Hagrid was exaggerating or viewing the world in overly simplistic terms (lets face it, not the brightest sausage on the barbie) when he said that "there hasn't been a wizard go bad that wasn't in Slytherin". It simply makes no sense - otherwise people sorted into Slytherin would just be removed from their parents and subjected to intensive training in manners and sensitivity: -) Emma From ksnidget at aol.com Wed Sep 25 12:21:23 2002 From: ksnidget at aol.com (ksnidget at aol.com) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 08:21:23 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Magical Genetics Message-ID: <133.14dcacfe.2ac30443@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44459 Corinth wrote: <> These mutations are ALWAYS dominate mutations. So no need for both genes to reach critical length at the same time. Dynamic sort of implies more of an active process than I am really discussion. There are many reasons for spontaneous mutation, repeated DNA is ALWAYS a hot spot for things to slip a bit and get copied wrong. The longer the repeat, the more likely this is to happen. In genes with long repeats the # of repeats may vary from generation to generation. Usually only by a few, but sometimes by a critical amount that changes the function of the gene. Why I stick with the dominate is muggle-wizard crosses seem to only produce wizards in the F1 generation. That indicates a dominate gene. And most dominate gene diseases that are known do the whole spontaneously arising in a totally unaffected family, and rarely revert bad to the unaffected state. Which is what we also see in the books. A continual supply of "new mutants" arising in the muggle "unaffected" mutation. Most of the patterns seen in disease states also occur in mutations that do not cause disease, but cause a new phenotype to arise. Ksnidget. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From oppen at mycns.net Wed Sep 25 13:02:34 2002 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 08:02:34 -0500 Subject: Fake-Moody's interest in Harry's resistance to Imperius Message-ID: <012201c26493$d201d220$d2510043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 44460 One thing that has occured to me about Fake-Moody's great interest in Harry's ability to throw off the Imperius Curse is that, as a loyal Death Eater, he would be _ve-ry_ interested in whether or not this ability was unique to Harry, or could be taught to others. The rest of the Wizard World apparently thinks that the Imperius Curse is unbreakable; I'm sure that Crouch, Sr. would not have relied solely on the Imperius if he had thought that it could be thrown off, the way Barty Jr. apparently did. That would make the ability to throw it off at will, or to resist it, a hugely important tool to the Death Eaters. Like, forex: Say I'm an Evil Death Eater (bwahahaha!) and the Aurors have me cornered and throw the Imperius on me. Unfortunately for them, I know how to throw it off. They relax once they think they've got me, and this is my chance either to turn the tables on them with a good old Avada Kedavra, or if they've got my wand and are questioning me (trusting in the Imperius Curse to make me answer truthfully) fill their ears with disinformation they'll trust implicitly. "Yes, Molly Weasley is a trusted servant of Our Lord Voldemort! She's been so prolific because she plans to either turn her children into servants of Our Lord, or sacrifice them to call up demons! And...and Hermione Granger's also high in the councils of Our Lord Voldemort! She _pretends_ to be a Muggle-born, but she was switched at birth with the daughter of a couple of Muggle dentists---she's really Our Lord's own daughter by Mrs. Lestrange, so she's a pureblood!" Well, not quite _that_ wild, but definitely an opportunity to sow confusion in the ranks of the side of good. As long as they trust the Imperius implicitly, not knowing that it is fallible, they will, at least, assume that I'm telling the truth while under it. Even if it could not be taught, the mere datum that the Imperius was breakable by something other than spending literal years under it (did Crouch Sr. periodically renew the Imperius, or was it "Imperio" once, and then just assume that it was still good?) would be a very useful thing for the DEs to know. If they knew that the Imperius was fallible, they would not rely on it completely, particularly in controlling other wizards and witches, but would monitor people under the Imperius to make _sure_ that they were doing what they were told to do. Come to it, I wonder how Crouch Sr. learned the Imperius Curse? Are the Unforgivables taught at Hogwarts? I can think of legitimate uses for at least two of them---Avada Kedavra both in battle and as a merciful release for someone dying in horrible pain, and Imperius to control monsters like giants lest they get loose and wreak havoc. It is stated that using the Unforgivables _on another human_ is a life sentence at Azkaban, but that says nothing about the various non-human, but human-like, creatures there are out there. I have my doubts that if I AK'd or Imperio'd a raving werewolf to save my own life that I would have to go to Azkaban. --Eric, who thinks that as good a teacher as Barty Crouch Jr. made, he also made a heckuva secret agent. From potter76 at libero.it Wed Sep 25 13:41:07 2002 From: potter76 at libero.it (Rita) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 15:41:07 +0200 (ora legale Europa occ.) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Color Symbolism, Snape's past + a few 'compliments' References: <19a.934f847.2ac1bc8b@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D91BCF3.000001.44005@i3a2c5> No: HPFGUIDX 44461 Eloise: >(welcome Rita!): Thank you very much! She goes on saying about McGonagall: >I can't refute that, nor do I wish to. But I don't think it's clear. >Being a member of 'the old crowd' (if she was) doesn't automatically mean >that she knows about Snape's past. Sirius and Lupin *are* members of ' the >old crowd', but they don't seem to know. I think is would have been >imperative that as few people as possible knew his role, whether trusted or >not. You've got a point there and are probably more right than I was. What you go on to say makes me a bit uneasy: >We don't see McGonagall's reaction to Snape's dark mark, so we don't know >whether she already knew, or whether her face registers shock or revulsion. >Neither do we see Molly's or Bill's reactions, though I don't think they knew >about it. In fact, even Sirius apparently doesn't react to it. Why doesn't anyone seem to have a reaction to the revelations that are being made? A little later, when Snuffles transform Mrs Weasley does react! Maybe it means nothing at all, maybe there's still something that JKR has to tell us before we understand that scene. And now I would like to tell some people how much I liked some of the things they wrote: 1- Zelda, your portrait of the young Sirius Black is very, very close to the way I imagined him. 2-Jodel, who's description of Lucius Malfoy is just a masterpiece! Although I don't quite agree with the 'mistresses' part of it. It may be something really 'aristocratic' but I see in him a sense of honour and of what's becoming to someone in his position that would make it seem quite below him to have mistresses. 3-Daharja for the fascinating Dumbledore/Crookshanks theory.I don't know how likely it is, but it's definitely *very* fascinating. From crussell at arkansas.net Wed Sep 25 14:44:20 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 14:44:20 -0000 Subject: Who was Wormtail supposed to murder?/ Q&A thing/ Potter's money In-Reply-To: <015001c26435$231ad300$cda0cdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44462 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > > Well, I have a little pet theory that the Potters at some point in history owned a/the Sorcerer/Philosopher's stone. Which turned any metal to gold. It's just that the stone is RED and the fact that it makes GOLD that gets me thinking there's got to be a connection. And the fact that Harry has inherited a vault full of gold. > > Richelle Thanks Richelle for the input. It seems like I have heard this theory before. It does make a lot of sense. The red and gold connection, Dumbledore/Flamel-were they both in Gryffyndor? (we know Dumbledore was) Are the Potters and the Flamels related?-distantly, perhaps? I am hoping that book 5 will give us more information concerning Harry's family-not just his parents, but his ancestry. Now don't get me wrong, I still do not believe in fate, but, IMO, knowing about his family may give him more of an anchor against the storms which, according to JKR, are just about to set in. bugaloo37 From gilaine at graffiti.net Wed Sep 25 13:47:18 2002 From: gilaine at graffiti.net (Gilaine Shadow) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 21:47:18 +0800 Subject: All Dark Wizards come from Slytherin Message-ID: <20020925134718.1361.qmail@graffiti.net> No: HPFGUIDX 44463 Original Message: > Pickle Jimmy wrote: > > >I think the statement is "off the cuff", and refers to the fact that > >many of the Dark Wizards (but not all) came from Slytherin, and have > >the disposition of Salazar Slytherin - who didn't like muggles, and > >didn't want them at Hogwarts. Emma wrote: > I have always assumed Hagrid was exaggerating or viewing the world in > overly simplistic terms (lets face it, not the brightest sausage on > the barbie) when he said that "there hasn't been a wizard go bad that > wasn't in Slytherin". It simply makes no sense - otherwise people > sorted into Slytherin would just be removed from their parents and > subjected to intensive training in manners and sensitivity: -) I have always believed that the general assumption that all dark wizards have been sorted into Slytherin is because best well known ones, ie, Voldemort were sorted into that house. I've always believed that Pettigrew (another dark wizard in my opinion) was placed into Gryffindor, and the same could be said about the other houses - that they each have their fair share of dark wizards. In all the classifications that the sorting hat has declared it has never said that purity of blood (Voldemort is half-blood) or hatred/anger at muggles was necessary. Did Voldemort even know that he was a wizard before his hogwarts letter? One of the slytherin traits is that they want some kind of power - whether it is magical, political, strength etc... and some might see taking the 'dark path' might be easier to gain political (world) domination. But in truth it is just a short term solution as there is always someone ready to take their place. To get his point across Voldemort would have been better to work his way up the ministry ladder (and become MOM)and invested in muggle industry! He would therefore be rich and have enough power to state some regulations dictating his personal beliefs. Gilaine _______________________________________________ Get your free email from http://www.graffiti.net Powered by Outblaze From myphilosophy2001 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 25 14:56:43 2002 From: myphilosophy2001 at yahoo.com (Moonstruck) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 07:56:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Marvolo-Lockhart-Color Symbolism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020925145643.54537.qmail@web20809.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44464 Daharja wrote: <[N]ot only is Slytherin associated with emotion and Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44465 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Gilaine Shadow" wrote: > >In all the classifications that the sorting hat has declared it has never said that purity of blood (Voldemort is half-blood) or hatred/anger at muggles was necessary. Now me: I believe you are correct-the Sorting Hat has never mentioned the need of pure-blood in order to be sorted into Slytherin;however, it was mentioned that Salazar Slytherin did not wish muggle-borns to be allowed into Hogwarts. Tom Riddle was a half-blood and I believe his resentment of muggles was already present in his personality when he entered Hogwarts due to his fathers (a muggle) treatment of his mother (a witch). If, IMO, the Sorting Hat is "filled" as it were, with the likes and dislikes of the four original co-founders of Hogwarts and bases its decisions to some degree on these "opinions", IMO, hatred of muggles and muggle-borns would be something for the hat to look for when sorting students. I do not believe it has ever been mentioned, but IMO, I would seriously doubt if you would find a muggle-born in Slytherin house (remember, Tom Riddle is a half-blood, not a muggle-born-there is a difference). For a backup on this idea, remember in CoS when all the muggle-borns were being attacked not a single member of Slytherin house was targeted ("Enemies of the heir beware"). I am not saying that all members of Slytherin share this blind hatred of muggles and muggle-borns but it does seem to be a distinguishing characteristic of that particular house; nor do I believe that all Slytherins turn bad. IMO,ambition can be a dangerous thing-it must always remain considerate of others-or it can do great harm. bugaloo37 From jodel at aol.com Wed Sep 25 15:53:15 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 11:53:15 EDT Subject: All Dark wizards come from Slytherin Message-ID: <76.2300364e.2ac335eb@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44466 Why do I have the distinct impression that at some point in the series Hagrid repeated that statement and somebody called him on it, leading him to modify it by adding "EXCEPT for Sirius Black"? I'm sure I didn't make it up. Have I been corrupted by a fanfic? Sorry for such a short post, but nothing else snagged me this time round and this recollection has been bugging me ever since the topic came up. -JOdel From gandharvika at hotmail.com Wed Sep 25 17:15:42 2002 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 17:15:42 +0000 Subject: [HP4Grownups]Knockturn Alley(FILK) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44467 Knockturn Alley (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Tin Pan Alley_ by Stevie Ray Vaughan) This is *deep* blues...listen to a smidgen of it here.... http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=60399742&loc=132&rp=true Ye gods! I love this stuff! Dedicated to Fyre Wood, the crazy mixed up kid that she is... ************************************************************* Apparated to Knockturn Alley To see what was going on Things was so dark down there Couldn't stay for very long Hey hey hey hey, Alley's the darkest place I've ever been All the wizards down there Livin' for that Dark Art magic scene I heard a person scream Yeah, and I saw in the shadow Some wizard was cursin' somebody Lord, with a-crucio Hey hey hey hey, Alley's the darkest place I've ever been All the wizards down there Livin' for that Dark Art magic scene I saw a green flash of light Yeah, you know what that was Somebody AK-ed his friend for no reason Just, just because Hey hey hey hey, Alley's the darkest place I've ever been All the wizards down there Killin' with that Dark Art magic scene I saw an Auror there His wand was in his hand He said, "This is a raid, boy Do you understand?" Hey hey hey hey, Alley's the darkest place I've ever been Yeah, they took me from Knockturn Alley And they put me right back in Azkaban -Gail B: Come off it Fyre...everybody here *knows* that the Dark Mark on your arm is really one of those temporary tattoos you get down at Zonko's, four in a package. _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Wed Sep 25 20:01:33 2002 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (Marcus ) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 20:01:33 -0000 Subject: Speculation on Potters' Job Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44468 Things we know: (1)Their job is important to the story. (From interviews) (2)They were living as muggles when Voldemort attacked. (From the scene in the movie JKR wrote.) (3)Voldemort used anti-muggle prejudice in his rise to power. (From just about every book.) (4)The Potters fought against Voldemort. (First book) Are these four things related? Marcus From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 25 20:13:34 2002 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 13:13:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Speculation on Potters' Job In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020925201334.93578.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44469 --- Marcus wrote: > Things we know: > (2)They were living as muggles when Voldemort attacked. (From the > scene in the movie JKR wrote.) Excuse me, but how does that scene tell us that they were living as Muggles? It shows Voldie arriving at a dark house, Lily holding baby Harry, Lily getting blasted, and baby Harry gurgling at Voldie. While nothing in there says that they *weren't* living as Muggles, there's certainly nothing that indicates they *were*. We simply didn't see enough of their home or lifestyle to judge. Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From Littlered32773 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 25 20:15:23 2002 From: Littlered32773 at yahoo.com (oz_widgeon) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 20:15:23 -0000 Subject: Speculation on Potters' Job In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44470 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Marcus " wrote: > Things we know: > > (1)Their job is important to the story. (From interviews) > > (2)They were living as muggles when Voldemort attacked. (From the > scene in the movie JKR wrote.) > > (3)Voldemort used anti-muggle prejudice in his rise to power. (From > just about every book.) > > (4)The Potters fought against Voldemort. (First book) > > Are these four things related? Hmmmm....Marcus, you bring up a very interesting subject. I had not thought about what we knew in relation to each other, only seperately. We know that the MOM has some kind of contact with Muggle government officials (I can't remember where I read it, but I know it's in GOF), so is it possible that James and Lily worked as some sort of liason to the Muggle government, in hopes of helping unite the wizarding world with the muggle world, or perhaps get the Muggles help in bringing down LV? Just a thought. Slon From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Sep 25 20:36:58 2002 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 20:36:58 -0000 Subject: Speculation on Potters' Job In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44471 prefectmarcus:"Things we know: (1)Their job [James and Lilly Potter's] is important to the story. (From interviews) Agreed. The Potters were enemies of Voldemort, actively fighting against him, whether it was their official "job" or not. "(2)They were living as muggles when Voldemort attacked. (From the scene in the movie JKR wrote.)" I disagree. First, I believe strongly the movie isn't canonical and can't be used to prove anything; second, even the movie says nothing about it. Oz Widgeon:"We know that the MOM has some kind of contact with Muggle government officials (I can't remember where I read it, but I know it's in GOF)" It isn't. In the Prisoner of Azkaban, the Minister of Magic warns the Muggle Prime Minister of Sirius Black's escape. It's tantalizing, isn't it? What other forms of Muggle/wizard contact might there be, and how often does it happen? I'd love to be a fly on the wall when Tony Blair got briefed in on the existence of the magical world. Everything we see and hear, though, points to the wizarding world still wanting to remain secret. From crussell at arkansas.net Wed Sep 25 20:39:44 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 20:39:44 -0000 Subject: Speculation on Potters' Job In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44472 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Marcus " wrote: > Things we know: > (1)Their job is important to the story. (From interviews) > (2)They were living as muggles when Voldemort attacked. (From the > scene in the movie JKR wrote.) > (3)Voldemort used anti-muggle prejudice in his rise to power. (From just about every book.) > (4)The Potters fought against Voldemort. (First book) > Are these four things related? > > Marcus I am not sure the Potters were living "as muggles". As for the other three points, I would say they are related. When I read these points, something else came to mind-why did Voldemort want/need to kill Harry? IMO, this question ties in with points 1,3, and 4. IMO, the answer to that question will be found when we find out exactly what the Potters were up to. I suspect the key to this mystery is Voldemort's quest for immortality-his quest to prove he can overcome his father's muggle heritage. bugaloo37 From Malady579 at hotmail.com Wed Sep 25 22:55:07 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 22:55:07 -0000 Subject: All Dark Wizards come from Slytherin In-Reply-To: <20020925134718.1361.qmail@graffiti.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44473 Giliane wrote: >>>I have always believed that the general assumption that all dark wizards have been sorted into Slytherin is because best well known ones, ie, Voldemort were sorted into that house. <<< Me: Maybe the only dark wizards that have been *caught* have been in Slytherin. So then as far as Hagrid knows, and he does seem to get around and talk around, all the dark wizards have been in Slytherin. It may not be probable, but is possible. Melody From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Wed Sep 25 18:33:56 2002 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (=?iso-8859-1?q?Iris=20FT?=) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 20:33:56 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape/Petunia Connection [was Snape's "Mind Set"] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020925183356.25594.qmail@web21503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44474 stevebinch a ?crit : Jessica wrote: >>>>>Consider this: >"SNAPE" and "EVANS" are essentially the same name >rearranged, minus the "P" in "SNAPE" and the "V" in >"EVANS," conveniently enough, however, the "P" in >"SNAPE" can be found in "PETUNIA" and the "V" in >"EVANS" can be found in "SEVERUS." >....just as "TOM >MARVOLO RIDDLE" is a rearrangement of the phrase "I AM >LORD VOLDEMORT."<<<<< I write: I think that you've got something there. Have you ever noticed how Petunia and Snape are never in the same place at the same time? (Evil laugh, hoo hoo hoo ha a a haa). No, but seriously, what if Snape and Petunia were siblings or at least cousins. That would make Snape and Lily relatives. If this were the case, then perhaps Snape's dislike for James was based on a protectiveness he has for Lily, his little sister or cousin. That would also give James a motive for saving Snape's life (because Snape would be James's girlfriend's brother or cousin). That would also explain why Snape seems to love and hate Harry. As Harry's uncle, Snape feels like he must watch over Harry. At the same time, because Harry reminds Snape so much of James, Snape dislikes Harry. Just a theory -Steve B Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. I believe the topic has been debated yet, but there also might be a tie between Lily Evans and the Weasleys. They all are red haired, and in PS/SS , Ron explains to hary: "I think Mum's got a second cousin who's an accountant, but we never talk about him" (english edition, p75). Isn't this second cousin related with Lily? He might be her father. After all, we don't know Molly's maiden name.But she's in her way a kind of a superlative mother, just like Lily. She might be an Evans. And this second cousin might be a squib. Lily would come eventually from an old wizarding family. But that's only a supposition... By the way, I agree with you when you write Snape both loves and hates Harry. IMO, there's even more love than hatred in his behaviour. When he's rough with the boy, it's always on purpose, to teach him what he needs to know to become an adult wizard. Snape simply doesn't want to show how much he cares for Harry, maybe because he's got to deal with DE sons (his favouritism towards the Slytherins could be just a delusion, so he could win their trust and get informations about their families), or maybe because he isn't inclined to show his feelings. He has a part to play, and will play it till the end. Poor misunderstood Severus... Iris, who can't help voicing theories, though it would be better to stick to facts and find out their deep meaning. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en fran?ais ! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From babydragoneye at yahoo.com Wed Sep 25 21:24:21 2002 From: babydragoneye at yahoo.com (Amber) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 21:24:21 -0000 Subject: The Houses Mystery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44475 Hehe, first off I'd like to say that I love you guys; you all had such reasonable answers! Not just, NO like some of my friends. So yeah, I think all of you have a good point; I was also pulling in the idea that JKR has never said what house James is in (not in the books or in interviews) and this is one of the things that got me suspicious. JKR does seem the type who could pull such a turn as putting James and the others into Slytherin, but also who just might not. She's always trying to do the thing that will surprise us most, and I'm not sure which would surprise me more right now. Well, I don't think she'll give us any hints, so we'll just have to wait and see. Either way, there's no way I'll be disappointed. Crysti From john at queerasjohn.com Wed Sep 25 23:19:03 2002 From: john at queerasjohn.com (Queer as John) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 00:19:03 +0100 Subject: ADMIN: New List Elves! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44476 **cue fanfare, troupe of elephants, scantily clad dancers, floats, parade balloons and small furry creatures** Got your attention? Oh good. The Mods would like to welcome two new List Elves to the Elfing team -- Filky Elf (a.k.a. Marina) and Ashey Elf (a.k.a. Porphyria). They join the ranks of our unpaid, abused staff. Filky and Ashey bring the Elves to the grand total of: Heidi Tandy (Heidy Elf), Sheryll (Rylly Elf), Jen Faulkner (Jenny Elf), David Frankis (Davey Elf), Luke (Lukey Elf), Gwendolyn Grace (Gwenny Elf), Dana Mahoney (Honey Elf), Dicentra Spectabilis (Dicey Elf), Judy Shapiro (Judey Elf), Pippin (Peppy Elf), Saitaina (Saity Elf), Tabouli (Tooly Elf), Mary Ann (Dizzy Elf), Ebony AKA AngieJ (Ebby Elf), Porphyria (Ashey Elf) and Marina (Filky Elf). Remember, every member should have hir own List Elf. If you don't have one, contact us via the Magenta Courtesy Phone (hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com) and one of them will shut their ears in the oven door for you. Elves are terribly useful (though don't tell them I said that -- they'll get all sorts of Ideas) at answering questions and giving help with various aspects of the HPFGU community, so feel free to drop yours an email, even if it's just to say 'hi'! Just as a refresher, the Mods are: Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray), Cindy C, Catherine Coleman, Elkins, Kelley Thompson, Parker Brown-Nesbit, Penny Linsenmayer and Queer as John. Feel free to contact us via the Cerulean Courtesy Phone (mods at hpfgu.org.uk)! Right, I'll be off now, before the elephant troupe tramples the small furry creatures and the floats get tangled up with the parade balloons. Magically yours, --QAJ, for the HPFGU Moderator Team ______________________________________ Queer as John || john at queerasjohn.com www.queerasjohn.com AIM & YM @ QueerAsJohn "There's nowt as queer as folk." --English proverb ______________________________________ From aashby.aashby at verizon.net Wed Sep 25 21:44:00 2002 From: aashby.aashby at verizon.net (theatresm2002) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 21:44:00 -0000 Subject: Snape, Obliviate, Neville? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44477 I have a question for those far more conversant in the books than I: I've noticed that several fanfic writers have chosen to point out that, in *their* Potterverse at any rate, Snape has an antipathy toward Obliviate. Is there canon support for this? Just wondering if there are implications in this re: Snape's behavior toward Neville. I checked the archives, but may have missed an earlier post as I'm going to be late for work! Amy From haunted.mansion at verizon.net Wed Sep 25 22:02:06 2002 From: haunted.mansion at verizon.net (Kronos) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 18:02:06 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Speculation on Potters' Job References: Message-ID: <3D92325E.92C5E320@verizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 44478 Oz Widgeon wrote: > >> "We know that the MOM has some kind of contact with >> Muggle government officials (I can't remember where I read it, but I >> know it's in GOF)" Jim Ferer responded: > It isn't. In the Prisoner of Azkaban, the Minister of Magic warns the > Muggle Prime Minister of Sirius Black's escape. It's tantalizing, > isn't it? What other forms of Muggle/wizard contact might there be, > and how often does it happen? I'd love to be a fly on the wall when > Tony Blair got briefed in on the existence of the magical world. FB&WTFT has this to say: "The Office of Misinformation will [in case of the very worst magical-Muggle collisions] liase directly with the Muggle prime minister to seek a plausible non-magical explanation of the event." -Page xx -Kronos From penumbra10 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 25 23:26:49 2002 From: penumbra10 at yahoo.com (Judy M. Ellis) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 23:26:49 -0000 Subject: Hermione and The Winter's Tale In-Reply-To: <20020924055445.99971.qmail@web20804.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44479 Jessica wrote: > > In the Winter's Tale Leontes has invited his *best > friend* from school/youth, Polixenes, to come visit > his kingdom and -- more importantly, to Leontes -- > meet Leontes' beloved wife, Hermione. Polixenes does > visit and the three (L-H-P) get along famously. When > Poli prepares to go, Leo does everything he can to > persuade him to stay. It is Hermione, under the wishes > of Leo, who finally convinces Poli to extend his stay. > For some reason, Leo misconstrues this as an > indication that Poli and Hermione are having an > affair. It's a completely irrational assumption, but > he gets his knickers all in a twist and loses it, > prosecuting his wife for adultery. > > This fits perfectly with the plotlines left hanging > after GoF. Obviously, Ron and Hermione have developed > feelings for one another. Once Ron realizes he's > smitten with Hermione, it's not too much of a stretch > to assume he'll be very possessive of her. For Ron, > Hermione will be, in a sense, his prize -- the one > thing/person that's his and his alone, the person who > gives him the attention he feels he deserves. > > Now in GoF, we know Hermione lavishes a great deal of > attention and admiration on Harry. So much so that > Krum suspects there's something going on between Harry > and Hermione, which isn't true. We all ready know Ron > has a predisposition of jealousy and spite toward > Harry, who, like his brothers, always casts a shadow > over Ron. In fact, Ron, like Leo, has a tendency > toward irrationality -- running with an unproved > notion to the point of explosion. I think Ron will, at > some point, misinterpret Harry and Hermione's > relationship the same way Krum does. > > Ron will see this perceived affair as the final straw > in his frustrations with Harry. They'll have a > terrible fight and quit speaking again. > > *Enter Voldemort* > > Ron will be at his most vulnerable at this point, > making him an ideal victim of Voldie's evil schemes. > The fact that he's HP's best friend will make him all > the more appealing to Voldie. He'll strike Ron with > the Cruciatus Curse (as so clearly foreshadowed in > GoF) and use him to lure HP in to Voldie's hands. HP > and Hermione will figure out why Ron's behavior has > suddenly become so strange and and rescue Ron from > Voldie's grasp. > > Ron will rejoin Harry and Hermione in the fight > against Voldie. His brush with death will knock some > sense into Ron and he'll begin to realize how his lack > of self-esteem (and the envy that results from it) is > dangerous to both himself and his loved ones. > > That's when we'll REALLY see Ron potential as a -- I > think -- very powerful wizard. This is a carefully thought out and intelligent observation. "A Winter's Tale" inspires speculation. I found this hypothetical plotline intriguing but had to take exception to it, because, in order to work, it would have to contradict Rowling's established plotting patterns. Her plot clues are never blatant. She's much too clever for that. But then, that is why she captivates us so, isn't it? It may well be that Ron ends up with Hermione, but I cannot see Rowling foreshadowing this paring with such cliche, old Hollywood scenes as spats and rows that turn into romance. There is ample evidence (much more subtle, but more in Rowling's style) for any of several eventual romantic pairings between the major characters. (See FAQ-Romance): http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/romance.html Finally, there is the very real fact that the character of Hermione herself, as developed through four books, best contradicts this possible storyline. She is nothing like the Queen of Sicilia. Do you really see Hermione allowing anyone, even one of her best friends, to treat her as a prize to be won or lost or fought over? Could you see her with anyone who flew into jealous rages over her long-standing friendship with another boy? Whomever Hermione ends up with will have to be mature and in control. Our dear Ron still has a lot of growing up to do to fill that bill. --Judy From rvotaw at i-55.com Thu Sep 26 01:33:13 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 20:33:13 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Houses Mystery/ Speculation on Potters' Job References: Message-ID: <002701c264fc$b24381e0$f0a2cdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 44480 > bboy_mn responds: > We all exagerate when we are trying to emphasize a point, so I think > Hagrid did just that, he overstated himself to emphasized that > Slytherin house has turned out a vast majority of Dark Wizards. But I > don't think it is a statement of absolute historical fact. Just a > generalization to make a point. The way I see it, Hagrid does exagerate a good bit. For example, he said Olivander's was "the only place fer wands." Well, it's not, obviously, definitely not the only place in the wizard world, and I personally don't think the only place in London. He just said it to emphasize that Olivander's was, in his opinion, the best place. I think the same is true for Hagrid's comment about dark wizards coming from Slytherin. And I personally think that all of the most prominent dark wizards came from Slytherin. Such as Voldemort, probably various Death Eaters in Azkaban, and I think Sirius Black. No, he wasn't a dark wizard (probably), but everyone so easily thought he was. It would make sense for him to come from Slytherin, where they have a seemingly negative stereotype anyway. > --- Marcus wrote: > > Things we know: > > (2)They were living as muggles when Voldemort attacked. (From the > > scene in the movie JKR wrote.) Andrea responded: > Excuse me, but how does that scene tell us that they were living as > Muggles? It shows Voldie arriving at a dark house, Lily holding baby > Harry, Lily getting blasted, and baby Harry gurgling at Voldie. While > nothing in there says that they *weren't* living as Muggles, there's > certainly nothing that indicates they *were*. We simply didn't see enough > of their home or lifestyle to judge. Well, I think we can safely say they were living *among* Muggles, thought not necessarily *as* Muggles. If we can count that scene as canon, since it was written by JKR, the nursery had an owl mobile over the crib. I don't know any Muggles with owl mobiles. I suppose you could explain it away as a favorite animal or something, but it is a bit on the unusual side. Hagrid did say of Harry "I got him out all right before the Muggles started swarmin' around." Which implies that there were at least nearby Muggles that happened to notice that a house fell down. Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From donotexist at aol.com Thu Sep 26 02:01:46 2002 From: donotexist at aol.com (ronin_economist) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 02:01:46 -0000 Subject: The Profs and Which Houses They were In at Hogwarts+ Sorting +Patel/Patil Mystery In-Reply-To: <3D918EFF.000001.22683@i3a2c5> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44481 > Katherine Adams: > >> Based upon current personality traits, which houses do you think > Voldemort, > > >Dumbledore, McGonaghal, Snape, Sirius, Hagrid, etc. did the Sorting Hat > send > > them to while attending? > >> ~Spookykat Every time the question of which houses the adults were in comes up, I think of this objeciton, and now I think I'll finally post it. The characters in question are adults, in some cases quite old ones. But the Sorting Hat sorts children, little 11-year-olds, in fact. Doesn't anyone thing that people's personalities and tendencies ever change as they grow older? Their values certainly do (e.g. younger people tend to be more politically liberal, then get more conservative as they age,) and there is evidense that the Sorting Hat bases its choices on values held as much as personality. Had I gone to Hogwarts at age 11, I would have certainly been sorted into Gryffindor -- I was a brave little thing, inspired by adventure books. But now at twice that age, I am more ambitious and identify more with Slytherins, just to give an example. So I do not think it's a good idea to try determining the Houses of the adults based on their adult behavior -- only their behavior as children is acceptable evidence. Peter Pettigrew is certainly not very Gryffindor-ish as an adult: he's a traitor and abject coward, who prefers to run rather than fight. But it's possible that he WAS brave as a schoolboy, and indeed we have canon evidence, such as his learning to become an Animagus and hanging out with a potentially dangerous werewolf during full moons. Hope my bit of whining makes sense -- this is my first post, though I've been reading for a few weeks. :) Reene From tmarends at yahoo.com Thu Sep 26 02:49:26 2002 From: tmarends at yahoo.com (Tim) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 02:49:26 -0000 Subject: The Houses Mystery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44482 > Crysti wrote: >I was also pulling in the idea that JKR has never said what house >James is in (not in the books or in interviews) and this is one of >the things that got me suspicious. JKR does seem the type who could >pull such a turn as putting James and the others into Slytherin, but >also who just might not. She's always trying to do the thing that >will surprise us most, and I'm not sure which would surprise me more >right now. Well, I don't think she'll give us any hints, so we'll >just have to wait and see. Either way, there's no way I'll be >disappointed. << I have two things to point out here... 1) In CoS, Harry and Ron have no idea where the Slytherin common room is. After a year you'd think they knew the general location of the other three houses... but this is not the case. 2) In PoA, Sirius has no problem finding the Gryffindor Tower... twice. If he had been trying to figure it out, even as Snuffles, then someone would have noticed a big black dog roaming Hogwarts. This brings me to the conclusion that Sirius Black was a Gryffindor. And if he was a Gryff, then so was James, Remus, and Peter. The notion that the four of them were in different houses, although interesting, is a bit far fetched. The hours they had to spend together just learning to transform into animals makes that (different houses theory) nearly impossible. Just my two cents worth. Tim A. From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Thu Sep 26 03:12:54 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 04:12:54 +0100 Subject: Speculation on Potters' Job In-Reply-To: <002701c264fc$b24381e0$f0a2cdd1@istu757> References: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20020926040514.009a1be0@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 44483 At 20:33 25/09/02 -0500, Richelle Votaw wrote: > Excuse me, but how does that scene tell us that they were living as > > Muggles? It shows Voldie arriving at a dark house, Lily holding baby > > Harry, Lily getting blasted, and baby Harry gurgling at Voldie. While > > nothing in there says that they *weren't* living as Muggles, there's > > certainly nothing that indicates they *were*. We simply didn't see enough > > of their home or lifestyle to judge. > >Well, I think we can safely say they were living *among* Muggles, thought >not necessarily *as* Muggles. If we can count that scene as canon, since it >was written by JKR, the nursery had an owl mobile over the crib. I don't >know any Muggles with owl mobiles. I suppose you could explain it away as a >favorite animal or something, but it is a bit on the unusual side. Hagrid >did say of Harry "I got him out all right before the Muggles started >swarmin' around." Which implies that there were at least nearby Muggles >that happened to notice that a house fell down. As far as I'm concerned, the clincher that the Potters were living a Muggle lifestyle are the electric lights on the ceiling and bedside table... As for the owl mobile; yes, it's certainly unusual. However, the Potters are nevertheless a magical family and I'd expect them to have *some* reminder of their "other" life in their home, and something as unremarkable as an unusual-for-Muggles (though by no means utterly out of place) mobile would fit the bill. -- Richard, who as usual hasn't had a chance to read HPFGU for about a week and is now severely behind again! (224 messages left to read and counting...) From tmarends at yahoo.com Thu Sep 26 04:24:00 2002 From: tmarends at yahoo.com (Tim) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 04:24:00 -0000 Subject: Speculation on Potters In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20020926040514.009a1be0@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44484 I'm currently rereading PoA, and something struck me. On page 371, US hardback, Sirius is speaking about Peter. "But then I saw Peter in that picture... I realized he was at Hogwarts with Harry... perfectly positioned to act, if one hint reached his ears that the Dark Side was gathering strength again... ready to strike at the moment he could be sure of allies... and *to deliver the last Potter* to them. If he gave them Harry, who'd dare say he'd betrayed Lord Voldemort? He'd be welcomed back with honors..." * emphasis mine Just thought that this added more fodder for the fact that Voldy was after the Potters, and not Lily (she was only a Potter by marriage). And Harry seems to be the last of the Potter line. Tim A. From anglinsbees at yahoo.com Thu Sep 26 06:25:11 2002 From: anglinsbees at yahoo.com (Ellen & John Anglin) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 06:25:11 -0000 Subject: The Houses Mystery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44485 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tim" wrote: > > 2) In PoA, Sirius has no problem finding the Gryffindor Tower... > twice. If he had been trying to figure it out, even as Snuffles, > then someone would have noticed a big black dog roaming Hogwarts. > > This brings me to the conclusion that Sirius Black was a Gryffindor. > And if he was a Gryff, then so was James, Remus, and Peter. The > notion that the four of them were in different houses, although > interesting, is a bit far fetched. The hours they had to spend > together just learning to transform into animals makes that > (different houses theory) nearly impossible. > > Just my two cents worth. > > Tim A. Um... He was one of the of the Marauders map?!?! I am paraphrasing here, but dont they (Either he or Remus)say something to the effect that they probably knew more about hogwarts than anay other students due to their 'Marauding'? This would easily account for his knowing almost all the passages in Hogwarts, no matter what house he was in! Tho, if the Marauders were in different houses, it would certainly have given them good reason to pool their knowledge into one common resource- make it easier for them to sneak about, visit each other, and meet on the sly- tho for the multiple house theory, more than one map would have been more likely- I mean can you imagine the arguments about who gets the map tonight? What if Harry's map is just the last surviving example of a set of four... Hmmm, I may need to get writing here.... Ellen From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Sep 26 10:34:30 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 10:34:30 -0000 Subject: Location of Durmstrang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44486 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jesta Hijinx" wrote: Jesta Hijinx almost asked but was betrayed by he email program 'Where is Durmstrand?' bboy_mn replies: Just to the right of Finland is my best guess. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Sep 26 10:50:19 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 10:50:19 -0000 Subject: Wand cores -Random Thoughts In-Reply-To: <12990268457.20020924214022@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44487 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Susanne wrote: > > Hi, > > Tuesday, September 24, 2002, 6:36:39 PM, Steve wrote: > bboy_mn originally said in part: > > To give themselves an edge in the fight. They will all have > > wands made using feathers from Fawkes. > Susanne Asks: > > What would happen to the "Order of the Phoenix" groups old > wands? bboy_mn replies: Nothing happens to their old wands; they keep them. Remember any wizard can use any wand, but you get better result with a well matched wand. Susanne Asks: > > When does a wizard/witch know it's time for a new wand? bboy_mn responds: Don't have a clue. I think once you have your original wand, then any wand after that is either a replacement for a lost wand, or a wand the is especially good in some particular area of magic. Like the Fawkes feather wands may not be great for general purpose magic, but they may give you a specific advantage when you meet Voldemort face-to-face. If a wand is lost or broken, I think you can still find a good match between you and another wand. I don't think it's like your one true love; there are other wands that will be a good match, and it should be easier to narrow down the match since you already have some idea of the type of wand you are likely to match. Susanne Asks: > And wouldn't it be awfully convenient if all the "old crowd" > were all of a sudden chosen by phoenix feather core wands? > > And if they just have them made, as you said, would they be > as powerful as when the wand chooses? > bboy_mn replies: Like I said above, any wand will do, although a matched wand will do better. They will be perfectly able to do acceptable powerful magic with these wands, and they will have the brother effect advantage, but you are right, they will not be as generally powerful are their original wands. ...snip... > > I'm not sure if I'm making sense. I've had a horrible > migraine for days, now, and my brain power is not at its > best. > > -- > Best regards, > Susanne bboy_mn concludes: Remember, I acknowledged that this theory has a few weak spots, but I still like it. bboy_mn From myphilosophy2001 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 26 02:51:26 2002 From: myphilosophy2001 at yahoo.com (Moonstruck) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 19:51:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SHIP: Hermione and The Winter's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020926025126.97551.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44488 Good lord, I cant believe Im about to argue in favor of a Ron-Hermione pairing. Judy said: < It may well be that Ron ends up with Hermione, but I < cannot see Rowling foreshadowing this paring with < such cliche, old Hollywood scenes as spats and < rows that turn into romance. < Whomever Hermione ends up with will have to be < mature and in control. Our dear Ron still has < a lot of growing up to do to fill that bill. I could not agree more! To be entirely honest, Im an ardent H/Hr shipper. IMHO, Harry is far better suited for Hermione in terms of personality, intelligence and maturity. I also think Hermiones skills provide a perfect compliment to Harrys. Ive never savored the thought of a R/Hr pairing for the very reasons cited above. As someone who identifies very thoroughly with Hermione, its difficult for me to see what Hermione would find romantically appealing about Ron, especially given his immature rages, irrational assumptions, and seemingly shallow outlook of the world around him. And Ive always questioned the skewed logic that believes a male and female who bicker and argue incessantly are harboring some kind of romantic desire. I think most of the time people fight because their personalities are simply too opposed; they dont see eye to eye on things. Ive read the HP4Gus FAQ-Romance quite thoroughly in the past and I agree there are a number of possible pairings for future HP books. I would like nothing more than to have JKR create a romance with Harry and Hermione and I wont give up on that hope until Ive read the last word in book 7. However, it is with heavy heart and a great deal of forced objectivity that I have assert my belief that JKR intends for Ron and Hermione to end up together and most of them are *not* based on The Winters Tale. *The most obvious proof for this pairing is the emotional tension between Hermione and Ron throughout GoF. As much as I want to believe that Hermiones frustrations with Ron and the Yule Ball have more to do with his insensitive attitude toward Hermione and her desire to be recognized as an *girl*, I believe it cuts farther that that. Chapter 22 The Unexpected Task clearly indicates the couplings JKR believes are viable. *Remember* before GoF came out, JKR said that H/R/Hr would end up with the wrong people. Apply that thought to The Unexpected Task. When the four players Harry, Ron, Hermione, and Ginny start out together, Harry and Ron are both distraught because they have sought dates with their females of choice (Cho and Fleur, respectively) and been rejected. By the end of the chapter, however, the tables have turned and Hermione and Ginny leave the common room in much the same condition as Ron and Harry entered. Hermione *specifically* takes Ron to task for so tardily noticing Hermiones feminity and angrily storms off. Ginny has agreed to go to the Yule Ball with Neville, but feels miserable about the decision once she realizes Harry is dateless. Harry, she seems to think, might have asked her had she not been promised all ready. She leaves the common room in a dejected state. The ever-wise Ron bewilderedly asks Harry: Whats got into them? Other people may read this chapter differently, but I think its JKRs indication that the people who should be together are eluding each other. *I know Im not the only person whos noticed the similarities between Mr. and Mrs. Weasleys relationship and Ron and Hermiones. Arthur and Molly are often coming to loggerheads about various issues (for instance, the Dementor argument at the Leaky Cauldron in PoA). Molly tends to be pragmatic and structured, while Arthur is more laid back and lenient. Molly clearly wears the pants in the household. She is as much a powerful and commanding witch as mother/wife. Clearly, these same dynamics exist between Ron and Hermione. Consider also Hermiones propensity to looking after or even *mothering* those she perceives as in need of help/love/support (Neville, Crookshanks, the House Elves, Harry) and expressing her scorn or caution when someone is doing something dangerous/wrong/risky. Molly Weasley is often disciplining Fred and George for the same reason. Perhaps my favorite and earliest indication that this parallel exists and that it hints to a R/Hr pairing is in SS/PSP: Harry meets the Weasleys at Platform 9 and observes Molly shepherding the children onto the Hogwarts Express. Molly approaches Ron with her handkerchief. Ron, youve got something on your nose. The youngest boy tried to jerk away, but she grabbed him and began rubbing the end of his nose. (95) Later, we meet Hermione and she has this to say: I only came in here because people outside are behaving very childishly, racing up and down the corridors, said Hermione in a sniffy voice. And youve got dirt on your nose, by the way, did you know? (110) *Finally, its my belief that Ron *needs* Hermione in order to reach his full potential as an individual. Though they argue quite a bit, Hermione helps to keep Ron grounded when he gets out of hand. If Ron has any chance for survival in these books, its Hermione. Consider the exchange in GoF after the Second Task of the Tournament, when Rons penchant for exaggeration and ego-stroking is exaserbated by the attention he gains as an underwater hostage: Harry noticed that Rons version of events changed subtly with every retelling. But I had my wand hidden up my sleeve, [Ron] assured Padma Patil, who seemed to be a lot keener on Ron now that he was getting so much attention and was making a point of talking to him every time they passed in the corridors. I couldve taken those mer-idiots any time I wanted. What were you going to do, snore at them? said Hermione waspishly. Rons ears went red, and thereafter, he reverted to the bewitched sleep version of events. (509-10) Hermiones pointed criticism, bursts his absurd balloon and help Ron realize how asinine hes being. In this sense, Hermione exerts a great deal of influence over Ron. Its my belief that a relationship with Hermione will redeem Ron and save him from his own demons. But I still want H/Hr :-( -Jessica. ===== "Oh, I'll settle down with some old story/About a boy who's just like me/Thought there was love in everything and everyone/You're so naive!/After a while they always get it/They always reach a sorry end/Still it was worth it as I turned the pages solemnly, and then/With a winning smile, the boy/With naivety succeeds/At the final moment, I cried/I always cry at endings" - "Get Me Away From Here I'm Dying," Belle and Sebastian __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From daharja at bigpond.net.au Thu Sep 26 03:45:19 2002 From: daharja at bigpond.net.au (Leanne Daharja Veitch) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 13:45:19 +1000 Subject: Hermione, Winter's Tale and plot clues Message-ID: <3D9282CF.D9A2D1DD@bigpond.net.au> No: HPFGUIDX 44489 Subject: Re: Hermione and The Winter's Tale Judy Ellis wrote: <> I'd have to disagree with this last statement. JKR's plot clues are actually very blatant at times - it's the actual *reading* of the story that creates the twists of a mystery novel. Take names, for example. I remember reading PA and when I heard the name 'Sirius Black' I thought of a black dog. And when Harry overheard the Weasley's talking about Black, I was immediately thinking " 'Sirius Black' - black dog - hmmmm?", having associated the dog at Privet Drive. The association became clearer as the novel progressed, as did the obvious fact that Lupin (*lupus*) was a wolf or a werewolf (I thought wolf at first, then changed my mind when Snape set an essay on werewolves!) So JKR can be very blatant about clues throughout a plot - you just have to look for them! I saw absolutely no clues whatsoever in my first reading of PS, though - I was so deserately turning pages to see what happened next that I didn't read the book properly! After PS I knew better, and read the other three books carefully, finding clues throughout - which made the conclusion of each story even more satisfying :-) Daharja XXX From daharja at bigpond.net.au Thu Sep 26 03:51:58 2002 From: daharja at bigpond.net.au (Leanne Daharja Veitch) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 13:51:58 +1000 Subject: Marvolo-Lockhart-Color Symbolism Message-ID: <3D92845E.1647750E@bigpond.net.au> No: HPFGUIDX 44490 From: Moonstruck Subject: Re: Marvolo-Lockhart-Color Symbolism Daharja wrote: <<<[N]ot only is Slytherin associated with emotion and > Moonstruck wrote: <> Good point. I would argue that Dumbledore represents a balance of male and female symbolism, in many respects. He is clearly associated with gold and Gryffindor - the auburn hair, for example). And I note that on the back cover of PS (my Australian edition), Dumbledore is wearing *Red and Gold* striped trousers under his robes! However, you are quite right about the silver hair and glasses. I think he represents balance between the Houses, and harmony between male & female, positive and negative. One could argue that if he is able to draw on energy from both directions, this could explain why he is so powerful. Daharja XXX From kristin at jesusphreaks.org Thu Sep 26 05:45:16 2002 From: kristin at jesusphreaks.org (Risti) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 05:45:16 -0000 Subject: A new thought on James? was:Neville and his parents / Lucius theories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44491 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bugaloo37" wrote: > The > Potters are also a pure-blood family( James' side). They apparently > are quite wealthy. We do not know where that inheritance came from > (how it was gained). They apparently have no trouble with muggles or > muggle-borns-after all, James married one. A thought just came to me as I read this. Do we really know that James' family was ok with him marrying a muggle? ~Risti, who is wading through huge amounts of posts after a brief vacation, and realizes she'd better just start replying rather then reading through the whole lot and then trying to collect the snippets of thought from earlier... From kristin at jesusphreaks.org Thu Sep 26 05:50:23 2002 From: kristin at jesusphreaks.org (Risti) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 05:50:23 -0000 Subject: Snape's DE past/ Life Debts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44492 Well, this is somewhat unrelated, but still related to Snape's deatheater past, and the Life Debts theories circling around. I've always wondered something. Why didn't Snape kill James Potter? We know he was a death eater at one point-I would imagine a through and through death eater as well, no matter what his redemption was later on. We know that he hated James Potter. Arthur Weasley said that the DE's killed for fun, and what would be more fun for Snape then to out his old enemy? This is early on, before any secret keeper, or even any Harry. The only reason I can come up with is this:James Potter once saved Snape's life.... ~Risti...who should really go to bed, but must stay up reading the rest of the posts... From anakinbester at hotmail.com Thu Sep 26 12:29:41 2002 From: anakinbester at hotmail.com (anakinbester) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 12:29:41 -0000 Subject: Snape, Obliviate, Neville? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44493 Amy wroter (paraphrased) > In some fanfics, Snape seems to have an antipathy > toward Obliviate. Is there canon support for this? From my reading of the books, no there isn't anything to support this. I don't even recall the subject of obliviation coming up around Snape. I _think_ people simply see Snape as some kind of tragic yet noble figure, and therefore he could have objections to that spell. I think that might be the writers personal feeling sshowing through sometimes. I certainly have aproblem with that spell and how the wizards don't seem to have a lot of ethics (that we've been shown) regarding its use. I think it's those feelings that get put onto Snape. > re: Snape's behavior > toward Neville. As much as I'd like to say that Snape is hard an Neville for some nice reason, I really think he treats Neville like that simply because the poor boy is so bad in potions. I speak from expirience when I say the quickest way to get a chem teacher (chemistry class is pretty close to potions in my book) to hate you is to blow something up, especially when you really should not have been able to. -Ani From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 26 14:09:31 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 14:09:31 -0000 Subject: Snape's DE past/ Life Debts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44494 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Risti" wrote: > Well, this is somewhat unrelated, but still related to Snape's > deatheater past, and the Life Debts theories circling around. I've > always wondered something. Why didn't Snape kill James Potter? We > know he was a death eater at one point-I would imagine a through and > through death eater as well, no matter what his redemption was later > on. We know that he hated James Potter. Arthur Weasley said that > the DE's killed for fun, and what would be more fun for Snape then to > out his old enemy? This is early on, before any secret keeper, or > even any Harry. The only reason I can come up with is this:James > Potter once saved Snape's life.... I'm sure the life debt was a big part of it, but I also think it's safe to assume that James Potter was no pushover. Sure, Voldemort swatted him like a fly, but Voldemort was a special case. I think it's safe to assume that anyone who wasn't a super-powerful, nearly immortal Dark Lord would've stood a good chance of getting smacked down if they tried to kill James, and that this is why Voldemort went to do it himself rather than sending some flunkies. Maybe pre-redemption Snape thought it would be better to just sit back and let the war take care of his enemies. :-) (I mean, sure, Snape could've snuck up from behind and tossed an AK when James wasn't looking, but where's the fun in that? Can you imagine Snape killing an enemy without making a snide speech first?) Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From ajl at hanson.net Thu Sep 26 14:48:47 2002 From: ajl at hanson.net (dembeldei) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 14:48:47 -0000 Subject: Snape/Petunia Connection [was Snape's "Mind Set"] In-Reply-To: <20020925183356.25594.qmail@web21503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44495 > stevebinch a ?crit : Jessica wrote: > > >"SNAPE" and "EVANS" are essentially the same name > >rearranged, > > No, but seriously, what if Snape and Petunia were siblings or at > least cousins. That would make Snape and Lily relatives. As I noted a few months back, someone on another group noticed that SEVERUS SNAPE happens to be an anagram for PERSEUS EVANS. (Somebody on this group even went on to wonder if there was any symbolism from Perseus and the Medusa he slew involved...) Dembeldei From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Thu Sep 26 14:53:08 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb P) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 07:53:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's DE past/ Life Debts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020926145308.21675.qmail@web13007.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44496 marinafrants wrote: --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Risti" wrote: > Well, this is somewhat unrelated, but still related > to Snape's deatheater past, and the Life Debts > theories circling around. I've always wondered > something. Why didn't Snape kill James Potter? We > know he was a death eater at one point-I would > imagine a through and through death eater as well, > no matter what his redemption was later on. We know > that he hated James Potter. Arthur Weasley said > that the DE's killed for fun, and what would be more > fun for Snape then to out his old enemy? This is > early on, before any secret keeper, or even any > Harry. The only reason I can come up with is > this:James Potter once saved Snape's life.... I'm sure the life debt was a big part of it, but I also think it's safe to assume that James Potter was no pushover. Sure, Voldemort swatted him like a fly, but Voldemort was a special case. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have a wee problem with saying that Voldemort "swatted him [James] like a fly." In PS, Hagrid tells Dumbledore, "...house was almost destroyed, but I got him out all right..." It sounds like there was a quite spectacular fight if the house was almost destroyed. I don't call that being swatted like a fly. I call that going out fighting tooth and nail. Also, I don't believe we know enough about why Snape became a Death Eater; there is really no indication that Snape would cold-bloodedly murder someone, so expecting him to murder James if James had not saved his life at one time seems rather odd to me. Aside from Snape having been a Slytherin in school and probably having many Slytherin acquaintances who probably did the same thing, we just don't know what pushed him into the DEs. The trouble with this dubious "reason" is that Snape has not been portrayed by JKR as someone to just go sheep-like along with the crowd. He's exactly the sort of parent, IMO, who would say to a child, "So! You became a Death Eater because all of your friends did it! If all of your friends chopped off their right hands, would you do it too?" --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From crussell at arkansas.net Thu Sep 26 14:57:40 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 14:57:40 -0000 Subject: A new thought on James? was:Neville and his parents / Lucius theories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44497 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Risti" wrote: > A thought just came to me as I read this. Do we really know that > James' family was ok with him marrying a muggle? > > ~Risti, Now me: No we don't know how James' family felt-since we have never been introduced to any other Potters-other than James and Harry. In PoA, Sirius (paraphasing) mentions something to the fact that Harry is the "last of the Potters" What happened to Harry's grandparents? In the mirror of Erised he sees back several generations. According to Dumbledore, the Dursleys were the only relatives Harry had. How many Potters did Voldemort kill? And once again, we have to ask ourselves-what it is about the Potters that bothers Voldemort so much? Thanks for the correction-it brought up a new set of questions to ponder. bugaloo37-does anyone know the maiden name of Tom Riddle's mother? From MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Sep 26 15:13:17 2002 From: MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM (mitchbailey82) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 15:13:17 -0000 Subject: Snape/Petunia Connection [was Snape's "Mind Set"] In-Reply-To: <20020925183356.25594.qmail@web21503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44498 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Iris FT wrote: IN REPLY TO > stevebinch a ?crit : Jessica wrote: > I think that you've got something there. Have you ever noticed how > Petunia and Snape are never in the same place at the same time? (Evil > laugh, hoo hoo hoo ha a a haa). > > No, but seriously, what if Snape and Petunia were siblings or at > least cousins. That would make Snape and Lily relatives. If this were > the case, then perhaps Snape's dislike for James was based on a > protectiveness he has for Lily, his little sister or cousin. > That would also give James a motive for saving Snape's life (because > Snape would be James's girlfriend's brother or cousin). That would > also explain why Snape seems to love and hate Harry. As Harry's > uncle, Snape feels like he must watch over Harry. At the same time, > because Harry reminds Snape so much of James, Snape dislikes Harry. > > Just a theory > > -Steve B Now me... As much as I like these theories, what you have said above about James (and Lily) knowing, and all , I can't imagine this getting past Dumbledore and Dumbledore categorically states in PS that the Dursley's are Harry's only living relatives, now If Snape is a relation to Lily then the Dursley's wouldn't be Harry's only living relatives would they? ...unless Dumbledore wasn't telling the truth in front of Hagrid and McGogonnal? Come to think of it I don't think Dumbledore has ever said to Harry that the Dursley's are his only living relatives - I think Harry's just assumes that (To the books...!) so maybe we have a conspiracy theory here... Michelle From kaityf at jorsm.com Thu Sep 26 15:35:07 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 10:35:07 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's DE past/ Life Debts In-Reply-To: <20020926145308.21675.qmail@web13007.mail.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020926101305.030bac48@mailhost.jorsm.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44499 Risti" wrote: > > Well, this is somewhat unrelated, but still related > > to Snape's deatheater past, and the Life Debts > > theories circling around. I've always wondered > > something. Why didn't Snape kill James Potter? We > > know he was a death eater at one point-I would > > imagine a through and through death eater as well, > > no matter what his redemption was later on. We know > > that he hated James Potter. Arthur Weasley said > > that the DE's killed for fun, and what would be more > > fun for Snape then to out his old enemy? This is > > early on, before any secret keeper, or even any > > Harry. The only reason I can come up with is > > this:James Potter once saved Snape's life.... Barb replied: >Also, I don't believe we know enough about why Snape became a Death Eater; >there is really no indication that Snape would cold-bloodedly murder >someone, so expecting him to murder James if James had not saved his life >at one time seems rather odd to me. Except that if DE's killed for fun, there wouldn't need to be any other motive. It is logical to assume that if Snape was a DE and DE's killed for fun, Snape would also kill for fun. Not that I believe this of Snape, mind you. In fact, I happen to think that Snape is a more honorable character than that, and that this trait has something to do with why he left the DE's. Barb continued: >Aside from Snape having been a Slytherin in school and probably having >many Slytherin acquaintances who probably did the same thing, we just >don't know what pushed him into the DEs. The trouble with this dubious >"reason" is that Snape has not been portrayed by JKR as someone to just go >sheep-like along with the crowd. He's exactly the sort of parent, IMO, >who would say to a child, "So! You became a Death Eater because all of >your friends did it! If all of your friends chopped off their right >hands, would you do it too?" I would agree with this. Snape does not appear to be a follower at all. However, I assume he was in Slytherin, since he is now head of that house. A characteristic of the Slytherins is that they will use any means to achieve their end. I think it is quite likely that Snape became a DE in order to get something he wanted. It may have seemed like a good thing to do at the time, but I'm sure he decided once in it, that it wasn't such a good idea after all. It may even be that once a DE, he discovered that the Potters were marked for extinction and that drove him out of Voldemort's camp. I'm beginning to believe more and more in a Snape/Evans connection, and it could be that as a result of this connection, Snape felt honor-bound to report what he learned about the Potter conspiracy to Dumbledore. We know someone alerted Dumbledore, and I think it's quite likely that someone was Snape. To stretch things even further, it is, IMO, likely that Voldemort had asked Snape to eliminate the Potters because of his relationship to them. Perhaps Voldie thought that Snape could get close enough to the Potters to do them in before they suspected him of any evil intentions. If Snape not only refused to perform this deed, but also reported it to Dumbledore, he would certainly have put himself at great personal risk, which is exactly what Dumbledore says of Snape. Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From crussell at arkansas.net Thu Sep 26 15:55:46 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 15:55:46 -0000 Subject: Family ties vs. Choice Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44500 There have been some pretty interesting conjectures lately about Snape's family tree and whether or not he is in some way related to Lily or perhaps, even James Potter. As I have stated before, IMO, JKR is a strong supporter of the importance of choices in our lives. I believe that all themes in HP-"blood purity" i.e.,family heritage- wealth/poverty-boil down to the simple issue of choice. IMO, there are two groups that all HP characters can be placed in: 1) those who believe that family heritage-"blood-purity",wealth, status/power are important and that individual merit is to be overlooked if the other above components are not present. Of course, I believe that Voldemort is the leader of this group, with other members including Malfoy, the rest of the DEs (whether or not Fudge will be added remains to be seen); and 2) those who believe that a person must make up his own mind-be his own person, regardless of what family heritage he has. He must rely on his own strength of character and judges others according to theirs. In other words, IMO, iregardless of what family heritage Harry has-good or evil-, it is up to him to decide what path to choose. The same can be said of every character in HP including Tom Riddle/Voldemort, Draco Malfoy, the Weasleys, and Snape. Tom Riddle became the heir of Slytherin because he chose to be. The same way that Harry chose to be in Gryffyndor. As Dumbledore says: (paraphasing) its our choices that matter. bugaloo37-who never fails to marvel at JKR's mastery of the ability to put forth such important life lessons in such simple terms. From kaityf at jorsm.com Thu Sep 26 16:07:11 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 11:07:11 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape/Petunia Connection [was Snape's "Mind Set"] In-Reply-To: References: <20020925183356.25594.qmail@web21503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020926105227.0305d008@mailhost.jorsm.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44501 Jessica wrote: > what if Snape and Petunia were siblings or at > > least cousins. That would make Snape and Lily relatives. If this > > were the case, then perhaps Snape's dislike for James was based > > on a protectiveness he has for Lily, his little sister or cousin. > > That would also give James a motive for saving Snape's life > > (because Snape would be James's girlfriend's brother or cousin). > > That would also explain why Snape seems to love and hate Harry. > > As Harry's uncle, Snape feels like he must watch over Harry. At > > the same time,because Harry reminds Snape so much of James, > > Snape dislikes Harry. Michelle replied: >As much as I like these theories, what you have said above about >James (and Lily) knowing, and all , I can't imagine this getting past >Dumbledore and Dumbledore categorically states in PS that the >Dursley's are Harry's only living relatives, now If Snape is a >relation to Lily then the Dursley's wouldn't be Harry's only living >relatives would they? A couple points here. One, I think it is quite likely that if Snape is related to Lily, it might not be general knowledge. In an earlier post, I had suggested that Snape's parents were Mr. and Mrs. Evans and that Mrs. Evans died. Before she died, though, she had a son they named Perseus. After she died, Mr. Evans, knowing the anti-Muggle feelings in the wizard world, thought it would be best to give his son up to be raised by wizards in the WW, but first changed his name so few people would know his muggle connection. Rearranging the letters in his son's name, he comes up with Severus Snape. Of course, Dumbledore probably knew about Snape's real background, but not everyone would. So why would Dumbledore say that the Dursleys were Harry's only relatives, then? Well, he doesn't. And that brings me to my second point. What Dumbledore says is that the Dursleys are Harry's only FAMILY left. A minor, but significant difference, IMO. If Snape is single, he's hardly the person to provide a family life for Harry. Heck, maybe that's another reason Snape has the love-hate relationship with Harry. Maybe he had actually wanted to take Harry in -- out of a sense of duty, of course -- but Dumbledore vetoed that idea for a large number of reasons, one of which is his disposition. I also don't think Dumbledore knew what the Dursleys were like when he sent Harry there to live. While he knows a great deal about the WW (but not everything), he can't possibly know as much about the Muggle world. If Lily was a wonderful person, what reason would Dumbledore have for thinking his sister is as horrible as she was? Sure, he could have checked it out, but I'm guessing he was spending his time setting protections in place for Harry. Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From fyredriftwood at yahoo.com Thu Sep 26 16:16:08 2002 From: fyredriftwood at yahoo.com (Fyre Wood) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 16:16:08 -0000 Subject: Gryffindor's New Quidditch Team Members... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44502 I was browsing though most of the archives and I can't seem to find a topic regarding the opening of 6 of the 7 Quidditch possitions by books 6-7. Here's what we have thus far for Quidditch: Seeker-Harry Beaters- Gred and Forge Chasers-Angelina, Alicia, Katie Keeper- ? We do have one open possition for Keeper for book 5. Speculation has put Ron, Ginny, and Neville up for this part. But what happens when Book 6 comes about and Gred/Forge graduate? What about when Angelina, Alicia, and Katie do as well? Who will get put in their places? I do agree with most people that Ron *will* make the team--it's just a matter of time as to *when* he will do so. I like the idea of Neville turning into a STUD and becoming the new Gryffindor Keeper. It's not much work, and perhaps his self-esteem will be increased. Remember: Neville got to fly before the rest of his first year class--maybe that means something? Or maybe, we'll have completely new characters join the team, and we'll see Harry instruct them. That could be interesting. Just thought I'd bring this up. --Fyre Wood, who impatiently waits to see what others think on this subject, before heading back to the Slytherin common room to tell the others what she found out. From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no Thu Sep 26 16:21:20 2002 From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 16:21:20 -0000 Subject: Location of Durmstrang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44503 --- In HPforGrownups, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups, "Jesta Hijinx" wrote: > > Jesta Hijinx almost asked but was betrayed by he email > program 'Where is Durmstrand?' > > bboy_mn replies: > Just to the right of Finland is my best guess. Most likely further North, or further West. From what I remember from the Atlas, there are few or no mountains in Finland or East of Finland - flat as a pancake, mostly, if you ignore all the sprooce- trees. Locations East of Finland also appear to be too landlocked for it to be culturally probably with a large ship as mode of transportation. The descriptions of the geographical features of Drumstrang require a location that is to the North of Hogwarts, in an area with mountains and lakes, and most likely a certain cultural connection to seafaring. Areas that might be suitable will be found in the Northern parts of the Scandinavian peninsula, as well as parts of the Russian Arctic coast. At the end I have included my post on this topic from November 22nd 2000, in full. Beware that the language used may give you paper- cuts. Two-three weeks after I made this post, JKR held a bookreading in Glasgow, where she also answered some questions, including locations of Durmstrang and Beauxbatons: --- In HPforGrownups, "Pam Scruton" wrote: > Jo thinks that Durmstrang is in northern Scandanavia - the > very north of Sweden or Norway and that Beauxbatons is > somewhere near Cannes in the south of France. She says she > doesn't know for certain because, of course, the exact > whereabouts of these schools is a closely-guarded secret to > which she is not privy! (the above from post 6494, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/6494 ) (The below is from my post 22nd November 2000, post 5961, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/5961 ): --- In HPforGrownups, Christian Stub? wrote: > I spotted a comment some time ago, where somebody > (Rita Winston) mentioned Latvia as a likely location > for Durmstrang., and, as the location of the two known > schools of magic besides Hogwarts has intrigued me for > some time, I decided to break out my encyclopedia and > atlas, and I have some random thoughts. I am no > expert on the things in question here, but it is a > start, and this can be improved upon by others more > knowledgeable in these fields. I hope I am not too > unstructured and difficult to follow (it is midnight > here), as I am reopening a discussion at least 5000 > messages old. > > Unfortunately, we are not told too much about the > location of Beauxbatons, though the impression seems > to be given of a palace like to the royal palaces in > the Loire-valley (decorated tastefully, without > stuffed k-niggets and poltergeists). I will assume it > to be in a relatively mild area, in a chateau akin to > Chambord or Azay le Rideau (the ultimate Romantic > Fairytale palaces). > > Of Durmstrang we know as much that it must be quite a > distance to the North, in a region with lakes (I am > presuming Viktor Krum knows the difference between > lakes and fjords) AND mountains, and also with access > to the sea (I am presuming the ship is an oceangoing > ship). This rules out all of Lithuania, Latvia and > Estonia, as these, between them, do not contain a > single peak higher than 318 metres (1043ft) - sorry, > Rita. In fact, Latvia is no further North than > Scotland ? it edges just North of the 58th Parallel, > and it is South of all of Norway (save Queen Maud Land > and the Bouvet Island in Antarctica, and the halfway > mythical Sjettnan's Isle in the South Pacific). > Formally speaking, it was also outside the Holy Roman > Empire of the German Nation, which stretched no > further North than the borders of Denmark (at least > according to my Atlas of History from school, but then > it labelled Yugoslavia as a NATO-member too...). > Denmark proper, being even flatter than the Baltic > states, is all out, the Faeroe Islands are to small, > and Greenland is too far out of the way for anyone to > bother going there. > > Finland has plenty with lakes, but no mountains except > in the extreme West and North, where there are few > lakes. Norway all the way up to the Polar Circle has > plenty of both, and is plenty dark in the Winter. > Sweden likewise has plenty of both along the 62nd > latitude all the way to the joint between Finland, > Norway and Sweden. Unfortunately, the combination of > lakes and mountains is mostly found inland, a distance > away from the sea ? only in Norway can it be found > near the sea, mainly on the Western coast between 62?N > and 64?N, and between 65?N and 66?N. There is also a > location near Narvik, at ca. 68?N. > > Besides these, there is a further opportunity, even > further to the North: Murmansk Oblatsk (I am not > certain if `Oblatsk' means county, shire, state or > something else), on the Kola Peninsula. It is an > appropriately barren area, with a number of lakes, and > a number of proper mountains. The need to be close to > the sea, seems to favour a location at the inner end > of the bay called Kandalak?skaja Guba, in the White > Sea. > > One could also look at this linguistically. While > Durmstrang is a name derived from German (from Sturm > und Drang, a literary movement advocating the > abandonment of sense), and seems to indicate a German > relation, both Karkaroff and Viktor Krum are Slavic. > This suggests a closer connection to Russia and > Eastern Europe than Germany, though that may be a > later development. To me, it doesn't not seem > immediately logical that Slavic students would accept > learning in German, rather than Russian, for instance, > when Slavic-speakers certainly are numerous enough to > justify one or more schools on their own ? > particularly as see have the impression of a historic > form of antipathy between Slavic and German nations in > Europe (the Teutonic Order wasn't always nice guys, > even if Eisenstein overdid things a bit). Both the > connection to Germany and the connection to the East, > reduce the probability of Norway being the location of > Durmstrang, as Norway at the time Hogwarts was founded > was primarily oriented towards England, Scotland and > the West, while Sweden was oriented towards the East > (essentially Russia was founded by Swedish Vikings) > and the South (Sweden had an extensive trade with the > Hansa-Bund). If Scandinavian students are split > between the large academies, then it is more plausible > to me that the Norwegians end up at Hogwarts, with the > Swedes at Durmstrang, than all of Scandinavia being > under Durmstrang. This is also because of the very > strong influence from Danes and Norwegians in the time > before William the Conqueror (just look at the > linguistic parallels ? York-Jorvik, church/kirk-kirke, > husband-husbond, (hus-)wife-(hus-)viv, etc.) > > In the region in question here (Northern Germany, > Scandinavia, Northern Russia West of the Ural > Mountains) there are four Language-groups: the > Finnish-Ugrian (sp?) group (Finnish, Estonian, Sami, > Hungarian), the Baltic-Slavic group (Lithuanian, > Russian, most East-European languages), the > North-Germanic languages (Norwegian, Swedish, Danish, > Icelandic) and West-Germanic (primarily German in this > context (but English belongs in this group too, > according to my source)). I rather suspect that these > language-groups, rather than mixing and matching, > would each tend to itself, education-wise. > > I would rather not see Durmstrang end up in > Scandinavia, due to a fanfic-project I have, which may > (or may not) lift off sometime before book V. I have > presumed that Norway, Denmark, Sweden and Iceland have > a joint school somewhere (In Norway, in my case, as I > am Norwegian, and Norwegian folklore is the only one I > know much), as the Scandinavian languages are (and > have always been), very close. This leaves for me > only the option of putting Durmstrang in Murmansk > Oblatsk, probably somewhere near the city of > Kandalak?a, at the White Sea. I am wondering whether > to include Finns and Estonians in this, only > Swedish-speaking Finns or no Finns or Estonians at all > (with, perhaps, a joint Finnish-Estonian-Hungarian > Institute (due to the languages being related), of > course founded by Ilmarinen and Vainam?inen.) , as > Finland was very strongly tied to Sweden for > centuries. > > I hope I did not get too boring (again, it is late, > with the attendant bad effects on my ability to > structure. I have to do it at home, however, as that > is where I have all my books). > > Regards > > ===== > "There are two trillion six-houndred and sixtyfive billion eight- houndred and sixtysix million, seven-houndred and fortysix thousand, six-houndred and sixtyfour litte devils in the world" > --------------------------------------------- > Christian Stub? > Student of Technology, architectura navalis From fyredriftwood at yahoo.com Thu Sep 26 16:24:03 2002 From: fyredriftwood at yahoo.com (Fyre Wood) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 16:24:03 -0000 Subject: Wand cores -Random Thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44504 BBoy_mn kindly posted: > > > To give themselves an edge in the fight. They will all have > > > wands made using feathers from Fawkes. > > Fyre Wood (ME) replies: I thought that Fawks only gave two feathers---Voldy's wand and Harry's wand. Or, I could be wrong? > Susanne Asked: > > > > When does a wizard/witch know it's time for a new wand? > > Fyre Wood (me) replies: I think that it's when it's either broken (ie:Ronald "Ron" Weasley via Flying Car), or perhaps if it's lost (like bboy_mn said), not up to par, etc etc. Another thought-- Maybe multiple wands are purchased on the basis for different uses. One wand might be good for transfiguration, while another might be suited for charms, or perhaps advanced Dark Arts. Or, you have freaks who just like to collect wands.. think Muggle gun collections and make the connection =) --Fyre Wood, who has a Willow, Dragon Heartstring, 10.5 inch wand. From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 26 17:50:36 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 17:50:36 -0000 Subject: James vs Voldemort (Was: Re: Snape's DE past/ Life Debts) In-Reply-To: <20020926145308.21675.qmail@web13007.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44505 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Barb P wrote: > I have a wee problem with saying that Voldemort "swatted him [James] like a fly." In PS, Hagrid tells Dumbledore, "...house was almost destroyed, but I got him out all right..." It sounds like there was a quite spectacular fight if the house was almost destroyed. I don't call that being swatted like a fly. I call that going out fighting tooth and nail. > You're right, of course; I was being facetious, and rather unfair to James, who I'm sure put up a hell of a fight to protect his wife and child. This only reinforces my original point, of course: James was not someone you'd eant to try and kill "just for fun," not even if you're Snape. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From annemehr at yahoo.com Thu Sep 26 16:46:08 2002 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 16:46:08 -0000 Subject: Wizard economics (was Re: Neville and his parents / Lucius theories) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44506 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bugaloo37" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rvotaw at i... wrote: > > Arthur frequently demonstrates that his family is worth far > more to him > > than money. As in a nice family trip rather than a vault filled > with gold. > > > > Richelle > > This may be off the thread that is being discussed here-but it does > contain some ideas concerning the Malfoys. I know it has been > discussed many times before-that is the issue of where wizards get > their money- but I find it fascinating. > let's take the Weasleys-they are a pure-blood family -which means a > long line of wizards in their past-but they are most definitely > poverty-stricken. They befriend muggle-borns like Hermione and have > an admiration and/or fascination with muggles in general. The > Potters are also a pure-blood family( James' side). They apparently > are quite wealthy. Now me: Actually, I think the Potters were more middle-class, or just 'comfortably well-off.' In chapter four of PoA: Once Harry had refilled his money bag with gold Galleons, silver Sickles, and bronze Knuts from his vault at Gringotts, he had to exercise a lot of self-control not to spend the whole lot at once. He had to keep reminding himself that he had five years to go at Hogwarts[.] He also restrained himself from buying the brand-new Firebolt because he had a perfectly good Nimbus 2000. Contrast this with Lucius Malfoy's buying a whole team's worth of racing brooms to get his son on as seeker. After all, if you piled up a middle-class family's assets in gold, it would still look like a pretty good-sized heap, wouldn't it? bugaloo37: > Then there are the > Malfoys-another pure-blood family with inherited wealth. Are we to > assume that their means of inheriting this wealth was any > less "noble" than the Potters? They despise muggles and muggle- > borns. They sided with Voldemort-til the kitchen got too hot. They > seem to go with whatever side is going to profit them the most. What > lesson are we supposed to be learning through these three families? > Are the Weasleys poor because they defend muggles? If so, why are > the Potters wealthy? Are the Malfoys wealthy through devious means? > And the Potters wealth gained through more noble pursuits? I know in > the case of the Malfoys and the Potters, that their wealth was > inherited-but that money had to be earned some way-so how was it > done? If anyone has any theories concerning any of the above > questions-please fill me in. > > bugaloo37-who knows that this line has probably been pursued before- > she just wasn't paying attention. Me again: I see the Malfoys as *old money* -- which does not imply that Lucius is simply living off his inheritance; he certainly may well be adding to it, but not by simple theivery. In CoS, when Harry sees him in Nockturn Alley, he chides Mr. Borgin for suggensting the hand of glory would be a good choice for Draco. I think this is a bit ironic, since I am sure he is amassing more wealth by illegal and immoral means, yet common theivery is so beneath him! As for the Weasleys, in ch. 36 of GoF, Molly tells Dumbledore that 'it's Arthur's fondness for Muggles that has held him back at the Ministry all these years.' So apparantly, they are raising their family on a smaller than normal Ministry salary because Arthur is not being promoted at all. So yes, the Weasleys are poor because they defend muggles *and* Arthur holds a job in a place where this is looked down upon. The Potters' source of income? I'm thinking it is important to the future plot, so could be anything... Finally, as to Wizard economics in general, I see the wizards having a need for money because no one can do all magic. They would specialize according to their talents. Someone like Neville may open a wizard Apothecary, for instance, and then use the money to buy services which he could not do himself. Then of course, everyone would need to pay for their supplies! Which reminds me, I liked the theory expressed by someone earlier that things conjured up out of nothing eventually disappear. Then the sauce Mrs. Weasley conjured into the pot would make the food taste good, and then disappear before it could add any excess calories to your body! annemehr From kaityf at jorsm.com Thu Sep 26 17:57:41 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 12:57:41 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Family ties vs. Choice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020926123617.02eda5c0@mailhost.jorsm.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44507 bugaloo37 wrote: >There have been some pretty interesting conjectures lately about >Snape's family tree and whether or not he is in some way related to >Lily or perhaps, even James Potter. As I have stated before, IMO, >JKR is a strong supporter of the importance of choices in our lives. I agree with you, although I'm not sure how Snape's family tree fits in. Whether or not Snape is related in some way to Harry, he too has choices he has to make, and I can see it as perfectly feasible that Snape chose to leave the DE's for an honorable reason, such as warning the Potters of Voldermort's plan to kill them. Whether that choice is prompted by Snape's ties to the Potters or not doesn't really change the fact that Snape did choose to leave Voldemort. That we know for sure. (Well, so far anyway.) bugaloo37 continued: >I believe that all themes in HP-"blood purity" i.e.,family heritage- >wealth/poverty-boil down to the simple issue of choice. IMO, there >are two groups that all HP characters can be placed in: 1) those who >believe that family heritage-"blood-purity",wealth, status/power are >important and that individual merit is to be overlooked if the other >above components are not present. >and 2) those who believe that a person must make up his own >mind-be his own person, regardless of what family heritage he has. He >must rely on his own strength of character and judges others >according to theirs. I couldn't agree more. We see this sort of thing all the time in the books. I think the first hint of this theme came when Harry told Malfoy that he could decide for himself who the right wizard families were. That comment put him squarely in the camp of those who will make up their own minds. bugaloo37 again: >In other words, IMO, iregardless of what family >heritage Harry has-good or evil-, it is up to him to decide what path >to choose. The same can be said of every character in HP including >Tom Riddle/Voldemort, Draco Malfoy, the Weasleys, and Snape. Tom >Riddle became the heir of Slytherin because he chose to be. The same >way that Harry chose to be in Gryffyndor. As Dumbledore says: >(paraphasing) its our choices that matter. I agree again. Harry also makes many of his choices for unselfish reasons and often at great risk, both of which I think shows his character. (Choosing to break school rules and try to save the Sorcerer's/Philosopher's stone, in spite of the fact that he knew it would be extremely dangerous and could, at the very least, get him thrown out of school.) He also gives up attendance at the Halloween Feast in order to do a good deed for Nearly Headless Nick and attend his deathday party instead in order to put in a good word for him with the head of the Headless Hunt group. >bugaloo37-who never fails to marvel at JKR's mastery of the ability >to put forth such important life lessons in such simple terms. What amazes me too is the number of people who refuse to give JKR the credit she deserves. I know several people who read at least one of the books and think they're "cute." Then when I try to explain the hidden complexity, I get a mental pat on the head and a look of sincere pity for my delusions. > >________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > >Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! >http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > >Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material >from posts to which you're replying! > >Is your message... >An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to >HPFGU-Announcements. >Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. >Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. >None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. >Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- >mods at hpfgu.org.uk > >Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com >____________________________________________________________ > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Thu Sep 26 19:29:09 2002 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene Mikhlin) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 20:29:09 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] re: Color Symbolism and animagi References: <1032926222.3198.57153.m1@yahoogroups.com> <3D913AE9.655B702A@bigpond.net.au> Message-ID: <001701c26594$0912fe00$ea8201d5@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 44508 Daharja XXX wrote: > > Actually, I was referring to the Snake in OT *mythology*, not language. It's >indisputable that the Serpent is associated with femaleness (the story of Eve, for >example!) And I always thought that the story of Eve and the Serpent was a seduction allegory? But of course I can't say it's indisputable, just my impression. >not only in the OT, but also throughout much of Western mythology. In Pagan >mythology, the Serpent is sacred to the Goddess. Obviously it was a mistake on my part to enter the symbolism discussion. I'm in over my head and I'll stick to Snape from now on . But I can't help it, it seems that with the right choice of symbols it's possible to come to any conclusion. For example, I could argue that because the raven is an evil symbol in russian tradition, Ravenclaw must be an evil house. > > Irene wrote: > < important/noble/popular/what not? How inconvinient. But of course McGonagall > does not really move the plot or whatever is the excuse that allows to write > her off.>> > > I was actually discussing the house colours and attributes, so McGonagall *is* pretty much irrelevant to the topic, but when one is keen to discredit an argument, irrelevancies do have a habit of creeping in! No, I was not trying to discredit an argument. If your argument was about the balance of male and female in the canon - it is all about personal perceptions and I would never try to convince anyone that my way of interpreting things is the only way. > Finally, is JKR aware of the sexual bias in her books and is it >intentional? But if you insist that the sexual bias in the books is a *fact* and the only thing that is left to discuss is whether JKR exploited the sexist status quo or the status quo exploited her psyche, I do have problems with this argument. Because somehow the subset of the canon used to support it is always defined in such way that makes the current Head of Gryffindor irrelevant. I was mistaken about your specific definition, that's all. Irene From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Thu Sep 26 19:46:59 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb P) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 12:46:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Gryffindor's New Quidditch Team Members... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020926194659.59408.qmail@web13005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44509 Alicia was said to be moved up from reserve when Harry was a first year. That implies that she didn't technically play on the team in her second year but probably practiced with the team, possibly to replace a seventh year who would soon be gone. Perhaps the usual practice when there are seventh years on a team is to recruit reserve players who learn to play that position but don't play in matches (unless the seventh year is ill or injured) until after the older player leaves school. Normally, a system like this would mean that in Oliver's seventh year someone should already have been training to replace him as Keeper. Considering how Quidditch-mad Oliver was supposed to be, this is quite an oversight. JKR seems to have forgotten writing about Alicia being a reserve player. Hopefully she will return to her own canon and fix this problem in book 5. Ideally, once the new Keeper and captain are chosen, the new captain will be alert enough to realize that with so many players scheduled to leave school soon, reserves should be recruited and trained so that they are ready to fill the void(s) when Harry is in sixth year. --Barb Fyre Wood wrote: But what happens when Book 6 comes about and Gred/Forge graduate? What about when Angelina, Alicia, and Katie do as well? Who will get put in their places? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Thu Sep 26 20:04:12 2002 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 13:04:12 -0700 Subject: "Are the Shades of Goderic's Hollow to be thus polluted?!" (was: A new thought on James?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8987506295.20020926130412@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44510 Wednesday, September 25, 2002, 10:45:16 PM, Risti wrote: R> A thought just came to me as I read this. Do we really know that R> James' family was ok with him marrying a muggle? I kind of wondered about this too -- Also about what would happen if Ron were to bring Hermione home. Everytime I read Louisa May Alcott's _Rose in Bloom_ I wonder, would even "Muggle-lovers" like the Weasleys behave towards a Muggle-born like Hermione (or Lily) the way the Campbell clan behave towards Phebe: She's a good girl, to be loved and helped on every occasion, but when it comes to one marrying into their clean, stainless family, then all of sudden the general view is that the DE's may have a point? -- Dave From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com Thu Sep 26 20:19:47 2002 From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 13:19:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bring Me Down! [filk] Message-ID: <20020926201947.40974.qmail@web40302.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44511 Bring Me Down! To the tune "Bring Him Home" from the musical _Les Miserable_ (But I really got the idea from Forbidden Broadway?s version of this song: "Bring it Down".) The Scene: After a premature and overly-strong kick-off, Neville and his broom are rising steadily higher and higher during his first flying lesson while the Griffindors watch helplessly below and the Slytherins snicker and point. NEVILLE (pleadingly in a shaky, quiet voice): God, it's high! This broom's too high! Please help me miss that very tall tree. I am young, and afraid. Why am I so clumsy? Bring me down to the ground carefully. What will Gran say if she finds out? "Is this how you uphold our honor?!" I?ve never flown on a broom, only been dropped from my room by Uncle Alphie two floors up. I bounced then, but I doubt I'll bounce now since I?m 50 feet up. Help me land safe and sound. Get me back to the ground. Don?t wanna die! Don?t let me die! Let me live! Bring me down, bring me down Bring me....... AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!! (thud) ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* "Tut, tut --- hardly any of you remembered that my favorite color is *lilac*. I say so in Year with the Yeti." --Gilderoy Lockhart, COS --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kristin at jesusphreaks.org Thu Sep 26 19:34:54 2002 From: kristin at jesusphreaks.org (Risti) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 19:34:54 -0000 Subject: Wand cores -Random Thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44512 I just thought I'd point everyone towards a rather lengthy post I wrote just over a week ago, under the topic of Life+Loyaly:A Voldemort/Dumbledore Connection, that refers quite a bit to wand cores and their power. It got hardly any responses, but maybe more poeple will take interest now that another wand core discussion has been started http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/44205 ~Risti, who has almost made it through all the posts she got backlogged with... From kristin at jesusphreaks.org Thu Sep 26 20:15:49 2002 From: kristin at jesusphreaks.org (Risti) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 20:15:49 -0000 Subject: The Secret Life of Arthur Weasley? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44513 Forgive me if this has been discussed, but with all the other character discussions, something in me is screaming out for this lovable guy to be discussed. A few questions to get the ball rolling... Does anyone else think that possibly, Arthur Weasley is connected to the Imperius Curse? After all, Ron knew it right away, and I can't help but wonder if it was from more then just the fact that the Ministry had problems with it. Could this have something to do with the fact that the Weasley's are poor? Also, I've always thought that Mr. Weasley seems to know an awful lot for the Ministry position he has. I mean, think about all the stuff Ron knows 'because dad is in the ministry.' (in no particular order, since my brain is rather fried) -He knows that Harry got an official warning about magic use -He knows that Harry's aunt was blown up(ok, this one might be somewhat in his department, but he still knows about it rather quickly) -He knows about the triwizard tournament -I think he knows what that Moody was to be teaching at Hogwarts Not to mention the tickets they got for the Quidditch World Cup, and I know I've forgotten some. In any case, has anyone ever wondered if there might be more to Arthur Weasley then meets the eye? ~Risti From Ali at zymurgy.org Thu Sep 26 21:42:11 2002 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (alhewison) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 21:42:11 -0000 Subject: The Houses Mystery/ Speculation on Potters' Job In-Reply-To: <002701c264fc$b24381e0$f0a2cdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44514 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Richelle Votaw" wrote: The way I see it, Hagrid does exaggerate a good bit. For example, he said Olivander's was "the only place fer wands." Well, it's not, obviously, definitely not the only place in the wizard world, and I personally don't think the only place in London. He just said it to emphasize that Olivander's was, in his opinion, the best place. I don't know whether this is a British colloquialism, but I read Hagrid's statement a little differently. I thought Hagrid was saying that Ollivanders is the only place that any self respecting wizard would go to, the "in" place, the "fashionable" place. I don't see it as an exaggeration more as a figure of speech. Ali Whose entire personnel class had to do an exercise based on Harry tonight because the tutor found out I was an addict - very embarassing - a Gantt chart based on Harry's imaginary activities!! From rvotaw at i-55.com Thu Sep 26 23:11:29 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 18:11:29 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's DE past/ Life Debts/ Snape and Neville/ Snape & Petunia References: Message-ID: <016c01c265b2$0cb88ac0$a69fcdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 44515 Risti writes: > always wondered something. Why didn't Snape kill James Potter? We > know he was a death eater at one point-I would imagine a through and > even any Harry. The only reason I can come up with is this:James > Potter once saved Snape's life.... Well, that is probably the most logical reason to explain it. And as others have said, I think James Potter was at the very least Snape's equal as a wizard, if not more powerful. And what little we see of Snape's magic, he does seem to pack quite a punch. Also, even Voldemort said that James faced him "like a man, straight-backed and proud." Even if James died doing it, I do like to think he put up a good fight in the process. To me that statement implies that he did. Anyway, more than why Snape didn't kill Sirius Black. He hated him with a passion, and had a fairly good reason, considring Black tried to kill him. Or get him killed. Eye for an eye and all that. Ani writes: > > re: Snape's behavior toward Neville. > > As much as I'd like to say that Snape is hard an Neville for some > nice reason, I really think he treats Neville like that simply > because the poor boy is so bad in potions. I speak from expirience > when I say the quickest way to get a chem teacher (chemistry class is > pretty close to potions in my book) to hate you is to blow something > up, especially when you really should not have been able to. Oh, I don't know. I wasn't so good at chemistry in college, and my chemistry lab teacher adored me. He seemed to think it was all terribly cute in a stupid sort of way. I had a good partner, fortunately, so nothing got blown up. :) Snape, however, does seem to be about the last person to find anything or anyone "cute." But then, you can't judge a book by its cover. Michelle writes: > As much as I like these theories, what you have said above about > James (and Lily) knowing, and all , I can't imagine this getting past > Dumbledore and Dumbledore categorically states in PS that the > Dursley's are Harry's only living relatives, now If Snape is a > relation to Lily then the Dursley's wouldn't be Harry's only living > relatives would they? > ...unless Dumbledore wasn't telling the truth in front of Hagrid and > McGogonnal? Come to think of it I don't think Dumbledore has ever > said to Harry that the Dursley's are his only living relatives - I > think Harry's just assumes that (To the books...!) so maybe we have a > conspiracy theory here... Well, there are a couple of ways around this. One being that Dumbledore is hiding someone from McGonagall and Hagrid who is a relative of Harry's, as you said. Another being that technically speaking Dumbledore said family, not relative. So you could technically have a relative that you don't consider "family." Although the Dursleys are hardly my idea of "family." So I don't like that explanation. First, let me say I've never bought into the Snape/Petunia thing. Though I could be wrong. But if it were so, to me this could be the best explanation, at least the best I can come up with. Snape could *technically* be related to Petunia without being related to Lily. And Lily could still be related to Petunia also. Take, for example, the following senario, which only works (I think) if Petunia is younger than Lily. I'm making up names here for convenience sake, to keep the relationships from getting to mixed up. Suppose "Ann" and "Bob" Evans have a child--Snape. "Ann" dies, leaves, whatever. "Bob" remarries "Claire". "Claire" has a child from her previous marriage/relationship with "David"--Lily. "Bob" adopts Lily, and she is raised with his name--Evans. "Bob" and "Claire" Evans have a child together--Petunia. Making a total of three children, none full blood brothers and sisters. Snape and Petunia would be half brothers through their father, Petunia and Lily half sisters through their mother. Snape and Lily would only be stepbrother and stepsister. No blood relation there, which is the important part in the Dursley protection thing. This scenario, of course, would open up a whole new can of worms. What would Lily's real father's name have been? :) Okay, now I AM drifting off course! Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Sep 26 23:31:50 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 23:31:50 -0000 Subject: "Are the Shades of Goderic's Hollow to be thus polluted?!" (was: A new thou In-Reply-To: <8987506295.20020926130412@mindspring.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44516 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook wrote: > I wonder, would even "Muggle-lovers" like the Weasleys > behave towards a Muggle-born like Hermione (or Lily) the way theCampbell clan behave towards Phebe: She's a good girl, to be loved and helped on every occasion, but when it comes to one marrying into their clean, stainless family, then all of sudden the general view is that the DE's may have a point? > I have wondered that as well, especially in light of the apparent disappearance of Muggle-born Penelope Clearwater from Percy Weasley's post-Hogwarts life and her absence from GoF. Did Percy decide she was a hindrance to his ambitions and drop her? Was this behind Ron's belief that Percy might sacrifice a family member for the sake of his career? Pippin From i_am_erasmas at yahoo.ca Fri Sep 27 01:06:28 2002 From: i_am_erasmas at yahoo.ca (i_am_erasmas) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 01:06:28 -0000 Subject: The Secret Life of Arthur Weasley? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44567 Risti: > > In any case, has anyone ever wondered if there might be more to > Arthur Weasley then meets the eye? > I'm quite sure of it, and not only Arthur but Molly as well. Regarding Arthur knowing a lot of the goings on in the Ministry, well he *is* head of department. Sure it may not be a prestigious department but as a department head it doesn't seem unusual for him to be privy to matters that have nothing to do with Muggle artifacts. I think he's well respected by his peers. Dumbledore seems to think so too since he sees Arthur as an ideal person to gather support within the ministry. I will be very surprised if we don't eventually find out that both Arthur and Molly played important (though likely unglamorous) roles in the first war agains Voldemort. Erasmas From john at queerasjohn.com Fri Sep 27 01:10:50 2002 From: john at queerasjohn.com (Queer as John) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 02:10:50 +0100 Subject: ADMIN: Flurry of posts from razsagal2000 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44568 Hi folks -- we apologise to those of you on Individual Emails for that exciting barrage of gibberish posts. *ducks* We're not quite sure what's going on with razsagal2000, but we're trying to get to the bottom of it as I type. The posts have been deleted for those of you on webview ;) Cheers, --John, HPFGU TechnoMod ______________________________________ Queer as John || john at queerasjohn.com www.queerasjohn.com AIM & YM @ QueerAsJohn "There's nowt as queer as folk." --English proverb ______________________________________ From the.gremlin at verizon.net Thu Sep 26 21:41:44 2002 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (ats_fhc3) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 21:41:44 -0000 Subject: Snape/Petunia Connection [was Snape's "Mind Set"] In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020926105227.0305d008@mailhost.jorsm.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44569 Carol Bainbridge wrote: > A couple points here. One, I think it is quite likely that if Snape is > related to Lily, it might not be general knowledge. In an earlier post, I > had suggested that Snape's parents were Mr. and Mrs. Evans and that Mrs. > Evans died. Before she died, though, she had a son they named > Perseus. After she died, Mr. Evans, knowing the anti-Muggle feelings in > the wizard world, thought it would be best to give his son up to be raised > by wizards in the WW, but first changed his name so few people would know > his muggle connection. Rearranging the letters in his son's name, he comes > up with Severus Snape. Of course, Dumbledore probably knew about Snape's > real background, but not everyone would. So why would Dumbledore say that > the Dursleys were Harry's only relatives, then? Well, he doesn't. And > that brings me to my second point. What Dumbledore says is that the > Dursleys are Harry's only FAMILY left. A minor, but significant > difference, IMO. If Snape is single, he's hardly the person to provide a > family life for Harry. Heck, maybe that's another reason Snape has the > love-hate relationship with Harry. Maybe he had actually wanted to take > Harry in -- out of a sense of duty, of course -- but Dumbledore vetoed that > idea for a large number of reasons, one of which is his disposition. I > also don't think Dumbledore knew what the Dursleys were like when he sent > Harry there to live. While he knows a great deal about the WW (but not > everything), he can't possibly know as much about the Muggle world. If > Lily was a wonderful person, what reason would Dumbledore have for thinking > his sister is as horrible as she was? Sure, he could have checked it out, > but I'm guessing he was spending his time setting protections in place for > Harry. An excellent theory, but I see one problem: Lily and James were the same age, which we know because someone (I think Hagrid, only a week until I get my canon back!) said that they were Head Boy and Girl the same year. Well, James was friends with Lupin, who was in the same year as Snape. So we are left to pretty much assume that Lily and Severus were the same age. So, how is it that they can be related in that way...unless they were twins? And Lily and Petunia are actually only haf-sisters? Though, what kind of genetics produces fraternal boy and girl twins where the boy has black hair, sallow skin, black eyes, a hooked nose, and a girl who has red hair and green eyes? -Acire, who will check on her canon as soon as she gets home, after she gets a lecture from her cat, that is. From kaityf at jorsm.com Fri Sep 27 02:14:16 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 21:14:16 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "Are the Shades of Goderic's Hollow to be thus polluted?!" (was: A new thou In-Reply-To: References: <8987506295.20020926130412@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020926205904.01269010@mailhost.jorsm.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44570 Dave Hardenbrook wrote: >I wonder, would even "Muggle-lovers" like the Weasleys >behave towards a Muggle-born like Hermione (or Lily) the way >theCampbell clan behave towards Phebe: She's a good girl, to >be loved and helped on every occasion, but when it comes to >one marrying into their clean, stainless family, then all of sudden >the general view is that the DE's may have a point? Pippin replied: >I have wondered that as well, especially in light of the apparent >disappearance of Muggle-born Penelope Clearwater from Percy >Weasley's post-Hogwarts life and her absence from GoF. Did >Percy decide she was a hindrance to his ambitions and drop >her? Was this behind Ron's belief that Percy might sacrifice a >family member for the sake of his career? Me: I had forgotten all about Penelope. Interesting thought you have about Percy. It sure would fit in with what we know about his ambitious nature. If Percy knows, as he must, the attitude many in the WW have toward Muggle-born witches, it wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that he dropped her when he got the job at the ministry. On the other hand, just because Percy may have dropped Penelope doesn't mean that all the Weasleys would do the same or would be unhappy about a Weasley marrying a Muggle. In fact, I can quite easily picture Arthur being absolutely delighted to have a Muggle in the family so he could pump them for information about Muggle life. I hope we learn some more about Percy and Penelope in book 5. Maybe Penelope is the one who dropped Percy for some reason, like his ambition. Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Fri Sep 27 02:56:00 2002 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 02:56:00 -0000 Subject: The Crayons of the Box (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44571 The Crayons of the Box (To the tune of The Colors of the Wind, from Pocohontas) Dedicated to Heidi Tandy Hear a MIDI at: http://www.dismusic.com/allmidi.htm Find a copy of the Court's ruling at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TLCdotORG/files/Miscellania/stouffer THE SCENE: US District Court For The Southern District Of New York, September 17, 2002. Enter NANCY STOUFFER, after District Judge Allen G. Schwartz's decision has been handed down STOUFFER You think it's a frivolous lawsuit The result of this court case is I owe Jo 50K But still I cannot see Why some spurious copies Have put my claims in such a disarray Disarray... The judge says Jo owns all the words she wrote down That jurors can't confuse our two domains But I invented that man they call Nimbus And the Myn, and the Nevils, so untamed Jo thinks the only Muggles who are Muggles Are the people who look and think like us. But she ignores their post-atomic struggles And the fact that they're just 18 inches plus Have you ever drank a draught from my Desire's Well? Or ever made a counterfeit Xerox? Can you delve into deceptions mixed with libel? Can you draw with all the crayons of the box? Can you draw with all the crayons of the box? Come pay a visit to my Memory Mountain Come hear the famous Legends of the Rah Come learn the stirring saga of a Stouffer Speaking truth, seeking justice, Blah Blah Blah The shyster and the gossip are my sisters Dame Rumour nurtures my urban legends And we are all connected to each other In news cycles that we hope will never end How thick can this balderdash grow? There's injunctions now, so you'll never know Now you'll never hear the song that Lily sings to friends, Or meet the Muggle riding on his ant And you will never see young Larry Potter's lenses For my books are out-of-print, and so you can't. Jo has won this case but yet Here's the thing you can't forget: Her books shun all of the crayons of the box.. - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Fri Sep 27 03:16:01 2002 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 20:16:01 -0700 Subject: Wormtail transformation? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <13913458816.20020926201601@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44572 Just wondering -- What happens now when Wormtail turns into a rat? Does his silver hand become a normal rat's paw (Carlo Collodi logic*) or does it become a *silver* paw (L. Frank Baum logic**)? -- Dave * In _Pinocchio_ when title puppet turns into a donkey, it's a real one, not wooden. ** In _The Tin Woodman of Oz_ when the giantess Mrs. Yoop ( Madame Maxime's mum?? :) ) turns the Scarecrow into a bear and the Tin Man into an owl, the bear is stuffed with straw and the owl is made of tin. From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Fri Sep 27 03:54:51 2002 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 03:54:51 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Houses Mystery Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44573 > > Crysti wrote: > >I was also pulling in the idea that JKR has never said what house > >James is in (not in the books or in interviews) and this is one of > >the things that got me suspicious. JKR does seem the type who could > >pull such a turn as putting James and the others into Slytherin, but > >also who just might not. She's always trying to do the thing that > >will surprise us most, and I'm not sure which would surprise me more > >right now. Well, I don't think she'll give us any hints, so we'll > >just have to wait and see. Either way, there's no way I'll be > >disappointed. << > > >I have two things to point out here... > >1) In CoS, Harry and Ron have no idea where the Slytherin common >room is. After a year you'd think they knew the general location of >the other three houses... but this is not the case. > You know...I don't know if this has come up before, but i get the impression, from the fact that Harry and Ron can't just ask someone in advance, that people from the other houses aren't *supposed* to know the location of common rooms not their own. There's never any taking messages back and forth between them, and no "calling on people in other houses". It's as if different houses are supposed to meet only during regular school hours and in public areas. I kind of get the impression that they're not supposed to - otherwise I would think that the location of the other common rooms would be something mentioned in orientation. perhaps that knowledge is restricted to prefects. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From suzchiles at pobox.com Fri Sep 27 03:59:26 2002 From: suzchiles at pobox.com (Suzanne Chiles) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 20:59:26 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] b75wb75 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44574 Where are those list elves when you need them? > -----Original Message----- > From: razsagal2000 [mailto:razsagal2000 at yahoo.com] > Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 5:59 PM > To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > Subject: [HPforGrownups] b75wb75 > > > 4b75w4b7 > From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Fri Sep 27 04:27:20 2002 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 04:27:20 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] A new thought on James? was:Neville and his parents / Lucius theories Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44575 >A thought just came to me as I read this. Do we really know that >James' family was ok with him marrying a muggle? > I was under the impression that all of James' family was dead. Otherwise Harry would have had relatives to go to other than the Dursleys. Or if the Dursleys were the safest option, the relatives would have been at least consulted; and Harry would have found out about them once he was re-introduced to the wizarding world. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From pen at pensnest.co.uk Fri Sep 27 08:13:20 2002 From: pen at pensnest.co.uk (Pen Robinson) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 09:13:20 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "Are the Shades of Goderic's Hollow to be thus polluted?!" (was: A new thou In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020926205904.01269010@mailhost.jorsm.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44576 > Dave Hardenbrook wrote: >> I wonder, would even "Muggle-lovers" like the Weasleys >> behave towards a Muggle-born like Hermione (or Lily) the way >> theCampbell clan behave towards Phebe: She's a good girl, to >> be loved and helped on every occasion, but when it comes to >> one marrying into their clean, stainless family, then all of sudden >> the general view is that the DE's may have a point? > > > Pippin replied: >> I have wondered that as well, especially in light of the apparent >> disappearance of Muggle-born Penelope Clearwater from Percy >> Weasley's post-Hogwarts life and her absence from GoF. Did >> Percy decide she was a hindrance to his ambitions and drop >> her? Was this behind Ron's belief that Percy might sacrifice a >> family member for the sake of his career? > Is it really surprising that we haven't heard anything more about Penelope Clearwater? She and Percy were going out together while they were at school. He left school. If Penelope left school at the same time Percy did, there's no reason to assume she lived and/or worked anywhere close enough to Percy for them to be able to continue seeing one another. If Penelope was still at Hogwarts, their relationship had no practical future, since he was then at work, she at school, and not many opportunities to meet (only Hogsmeade weekends and holidays, presumably). By the time the Yule Ball came round, she might well have developed a relationship with someone else at Hogwarts, and would therefore have attended the ball with the new chap. Irrelevant to Percy, certainly irrelevant to Harry, and therefore, not mentioned. Lots of relationships come to an end at convenient times - and finishing school has got to be one of those 'end of an era' stages. I went out for someone for two years at college, but when we graduated, we parted. Living in quite different parts of the country as we then did, it was hardly realistic to think of ourselves as still going out. Had we been emotionally invested enough to be considering a permanent relationship, it would have been worth making strenuous efforts to keep in touch, but otherwise - why worry? I can't see any reason to suppose that Penelope is pining for her lost love, or heartbroken by his ruthless severing of all ties in order to further his ambitions! Perhaps she is, but is that really the most likely of all possibilities? Pen From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Sep 27 08:47:16 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 08:47:16 -0000 Subject: Location of Durmstrang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44577 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "pengolodh_sc" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups, "Steve" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups, "Jesta Hijinx" wrote: > > > > Jesta Hijinx almost asked but was betrayed by he email > > program 'Where is Durmstrand?' > > > > bboy_mn replies: > > Just to the right of Finland is my best guess. pengolodh_sc Replied: > > Most likely further North, or further West. From what I remember > from the Atlas, there are few or no mountains in Finland or East of > Finland - flat as a pancake, mostly, if you ignore all the sprooce- > trees. Locations East of Finland also appear to be too landlocked > for it to be culturally probably with a large ship as mode of > transportation. The descriptions of the geographical features of > Drumstrang require a location that is to the North of Hogwarts, in an > area with mountains and lakes, and most likely a certain cultural > connection to seafaring. Areas that might be suitable will be found > in the Northern parts of the Scandinavian peninsula, as well as parts > of the Russian Arctic coast. > bboy_mn responds: Well, JKR as good as said it was in Northern Scandinavia, but I submit that the area I mentioned logically qualifies as Scandinavia, even if it doesn't qualify in a geo-political sense. As a side note, Finland used to be part of Russia. Let me say that I've never been to Finland or the area of Russia just to the right of Finland, but I have an atlas, and my atlas makes it appear as if that area of Russia has very similar terrain to Finland. So let's tackle mountains first. UK has several named moutain ranges, yet, according to the CIA World Factbook 2001, the highest elevation in the UK is 1,343 Meters. The highest elevation in Finland is 1,328 Meters. Give their similarity on my somewhat topograhic atlas, I have to assume that there is something in that area of Russia that qualifies as a mountain. Not all mountain have to be 20,000 feet. Next, landlocked, while the easter border of Finland is landlocked, the land to the east of Finland is not. It is bordered by the White Sea (Beloye More) and the Barents Sea (Barentsevo More) and it has many lakes and certainly is heavily forested. Also the southern end of this little section of Russia borders on the Gulf of Finland. So, it is certainly a seafaring region. Next, lakes, Finland has 60,000 lakes. This area of Russia has similar geography, and has several very large lakes; several of which are in the north. Proximity to UK, this area of Russia is FAR north of any part of the main land mass of the UK. Which means, far north of northern Scotland. The northern border of this area of Russia, borders the northern most part of Norway. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. bboy_mn From MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Sep 27 09:34:23 2002 From: MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM (mitchbailey82) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 09:34:23 -0000 Subject: Snape/Petunia Connection [was Snape's "Mind Set"] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44578 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "ats_fhc3" wrote: Though, what kind of genetics > produces fraternal boy and girl twins where the boy has black hair, > sallow skin, black eyes, a hooked nose, and a girl who has red hair > and green eyes? > Now me: Boy/girl twins can't identical twins (obviously), in boy girl twins only occur when 2 separate eggs are fertilised at the same time this means that they are produced not only by separate eggs but also by separate sperm. They are the same as any normal brother and sister genetically, the only difference is that they shared the womb at the same time. Many siblings have different characteristics (eg different hair colour, eye colour) you can often get one sibling that takes after the Dad and another that takes after the Mum. So it is possible to get two non-identical twins that look nothing like each other. Michelle From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Sep 27 09:57:44 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 09:57:44 -0000 Subject: Gryffindor's New Quidditch Team Members... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44579 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Fyre Wood" wrote: > I was browsing though most of the archives and I can't seem to find a > topic regarding the opening of 6 of the 7 Quidditch possitions by > books 6-7. > > Here's what we have thus far for Quidditch: > Seeker-Harry > Beaters- Gred and Forge > Chasers-Angelina, Alicia, Katie > Keeper- ? > > We do have one open possition for Keeper for book 5. Speculation has > put Ron, Ginny, and Neville up for this part. > > But what happens when Book 6 comes about and Gred/Forge graduate? > What about when Angelina, Alicia, and Katie do as well? Who will get > put in their places? > > ...snip... > > > Just thought I'd bring this up. > > --Fyre Wood bboy_mn: Well, I have high confidence that Ron will be the next keeper. He's an experienced flyer from a long line of excellent Quiditch players. Personally, I would hate to be the Keeper. You leave every game, won or lost, knowing that every point the other team scored, they scored because of you with the exception of the Snitch points. I think they are very foolish if they don't start training a reserve team in the next book. It would be a disaster to wait until the beginning of 6th year to start looking for new members. Assuming they do train a reserve team, I think Ron will demonstrate that he is much better than Harry at devising play stategy, and directing the effective training of the other members. So, I predict that in book 6, it will be Ron who is the team captain, not Harry. I really don't think that Captain is a job that Harry wants. He has too many other things on his mind. Just my opinion. bboy_mn From A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk Fri Sep 27 10:13:34 2002 From: A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk (edisbevan) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 10:13:34 -0000 Subject: The Houses Mystery/ Speculation on Potters' Job In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44580 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "alhewison" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > > The way I see it, Hagrid does exaggerate a good bit. .... > I don't know whether this is a British colloquialism, but I read > Hagrid's statement a little differently. I thought Hagrid was > saying that Ollivanders is the only place that any self respecting > wizard would go to, the "in" place, the "fashionable" place. I agree with this, its exactly the tone of British Social Class codewords. Hagrid here I think was arguing 'only the best for Harry'. So they get the wand from the equivalent of that store on 5th Avenue, New York, getting the right Logo to boot, and not from the local Wal- Mart. Edis From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Fri Sep 27 05:21:05 2002 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 05:21:05 -0000 Subject: The Secret Life of Arthur Weasley? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44581 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Risti" wrote: > > In any case, has anyone ever wondered if there might be more to > Arthur Weasley then meets the eye? > > ~Risti Ever since the Quidditch World Cup in GoF, I have believed that Arthur Weasley is an Unspeakable from the Depatment of Mysteries working undercover, and that Fred & George will follow in their father's footsteps, with the jokeshop as a front. Haggridd From penumbra10 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 27 02:00:01 2002 From: penumbra10 at yahoo.com (Judy M. Ellis) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 02:00:01 -0000 Subject: Hermione, Winter's Tale and plot clues In-Reply-To: <3D9282CF.D9A2D1DD@bigpond.net.au> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44582 > Judy Ellis wrote: > > (paraphrased): Rowling's plot clues are never blatant. > Daharja XXX responded: > I'd have to disagree with this last statement. JKR's plot clues are > actually very blatant at times - it's the actual *reading* of the story > that creates the twists of a mystery novel. Take names, for example. I > remember reading PA and when I heard the name 'Sirius Black' I thought > of a black dog. And when Harry overheard the Weasley's talking about > Black, I was immediately thinking " 'Sirius Black' - black dog - > hmmmm?", having associated the dog at Privet Drive. The association > became clearer as the novel progressed, as did the obvious fact that > Lupin (*lupus*) was a wolf or a werewolf (I thought wolf at first, then > changed my mind when Snape set an essay on werewolves!) > > So JKR can be very blatant about clues throughout a plot - you just have > to look for them! Judy Ellis responds: I think you must have mistook my statement. The witty names Rowling comes up with serve as descriptive, shorthand of her characters' personalities and, in some cases, as with Sirius Black or Remus Lupin, also serve to foreshadow future revelations about the character as you have said, but these are NOT blatant. Sirius' name might mean "black dog," but you could NEVER have guessed on first reading it that he was an animagus because the first time we see Black???s name is at the beginning of SS/PS (Chapter 1) Rowling had not yet revealed that there was any such thing. The correlation comes as hindsight after we learn about animagi. You indicate that clues become clearer as the novels progress. Something ???blatant??? is obvious at once, don???t you think? Some authors are so patronizing that they practically club their readers over the head with their silly plotting clues as if no one has the wit to figure things out any other way. THAT is being blatant. As for the names-- ???Sirius,??? and ???Remus,??? ???Minerva,??? ???Sy= bil,??? and all the rest of her cleverly-named characters--since the books were originally written for children, do you know of many 12-year olds who know that the star Sirius is called the ???dog star,??? or that Lupin had its root in the Latin ???lupus???? Out of the 172 children I teach every day only one knew that without any clues. For most kids, many of the names are something of a mystery until they pull out a Harry Potter Lexicon or go online. They are always delighted when they find a new one. You are an unusual adult if you immediately made the connections. Secondary school Latin has a way of evaporating as we age. Rowling???s character clues are wonderfully subtle and the fun in reading her books comes with making the associations and interpretations.. The statement about ???plot clues??? in my previous post had to do with story line foreshadowing. Rowling never blatantly foreshadows anything in her novels ??" she never resorts to hackneyed old clich?? plotting or treats her readers as if they were scatterbrained twits. Rowling???s books are full of layers and subtleties most children???s authors are not going to take the time to write. I was simply stating that to believe the many rows and spats between Ron and Hermione were indicative of an eventual romantic relationship was not giving enough credit to Rowling???s cleverness and intelligence and contradicts her plotting style which you have so well pointed out. (Jessica has since posted a very insightful response which I am looking forward to answering.) Rowling makes her readers think on every page. But isn???t that why we have this super e-group and we--several thousand adults--are still discussing her books after all this time? Rowling may use the familiar to lead us into unknown territory, but blatant and obvious, she is not. -- Judy From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Fri Sep 27 13:13:57 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb P) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 06:13:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wormtail transformation? In-Reply-To: <13913458816.20020926201601@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20020927131357.47350.qmail@web13007.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44584 Dave Hardenbrook wrote: Just wondering -- What happens now when Wormtail turns into a rat? Does his silver hand become a normal rat's paw (Carlo Collodi logic*) or does it become a *silver* paw (L. Frank Baum logic**)? -- Dave * In _Pinocchio_ when title puppet turns into a donkey, it's a real one, not wooden. ** In _The Tin Woodman of Oz_ when the giantess Mrs. Yoop ( Madame Maxime's mum?? :) ) turns the Scarecrow into a bear and the Tin Man into an owl, the bear is stuffed with straw and the owl is made of tin. Several things seem to be possible. Since, before Voldemort's rebirth, he lacked a finger in his rat form AND his human form, it is possible that he would in fact have a silver paw (this would reflect the state of his current human form, just like the missing finger). Another possibility is that, since the silver hand might not be a "part" of him in quite the same way as the body he was born with, he will no longer be able to do the Animagus Transfiguration. Or, if it IS in fact fully integrated into his body and he can control what happens to it when he becomes an Animagus, it may become a normal rat's paw, as you suggested. What JKR plans to do about this remains to be seen, but if she is consistent with her earlier portrayal of Wormtail, the first option seems most likely. (And it would reduce plot possibilities to remove the ability to do the Animagus Transfiguration from Wormtail.) This would give Harry and company an advantage; a rat with a silver paw would be more easily spotted than one simply missing a finger. (Which makes you wonder how Sirius spotted the missing finger in a newspaper photograph, but that's another story...) --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 27 13:29:43 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 13:29:43 -0000 Subject: FILK: Cheat Boldly, Slytherin Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44585 Recently, there have been a number of House fight songs, all done to the tune of the Michigan Fight Song. That's all well and good, of course, but it occurs to me that for Slytherin House, nothing but the best will do, and that means... ... Tom Lehrer! So, without further ado, I present: Cheat Boldly, Slytherin to the tune of "Fight Fiercely, Harvard" dedicated to Caius Marcius Cheat boldly, Slytherin, cheat, cheat, cheat! Commit at least a hundred fouls. There is no glory in defeat, So make the opposition howl! And we will celebrate our victory, We'll string up Potter from the nearest tree. (How jolly!) Knock their Keeper off his broom, And cheat, cheat, cheat! Cheat boldly, Slytherin, cheat, cheat, cheat! Break every rule that's in the book. The other teams don't stand a chance, We'll beat them all by hook or crook. We'll do it, whatever it takes us to win! We're gonna grab that Cup for Slytherin! (We'll steal it!) Steal their playbook, hex their brooms, And cheat, cheat, cheat! That's what we're best at! Cheat, cheat, cheat! Just don't get caught, though! Cheat, cheat, cheat! Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Fri Sep 27 13:33:24 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 13:33:24 -0000 Subject: Harry's Relatives: his Uncle Voldemort and his sister Hermione In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44586 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "pickle_jimmy" wrote: > I don't know if this has come past HPFGU yet/before, but I was > quite impressed and thought if you hadn't seen it, you might like > a read. This stuff contradicts canon from the get-go. As you know, we like to use canon as the basis for speculation around here. [snip] > I have included only 1/10 of it, to give you a taste of > what 'Martel' has written - the speculation is supported by stuff > from the books, I roundly disagree. Nothing you have included here has the least canon support. Indeed, as I said, it contradicts canon. > What I enjoyed most - To me, it is the very kind of twists I could > see JK putting in. Not very likely, unless she has taken a blow to the head recently. (IMNSHO) > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Part 1 : Are Harry and Voldemort related ? > Here is my guess : Voldemort he had a sister. Voldemort's sister > married a wizard named Potter. She became the mother of James > Potter! So, if I am correct, Voldemort is James' uncle, and > Harry's great-uncle. There is no canon cited here. It contradicts canon by making Harry a blood relation of Voldemort's. It has been confirmed by Dumbledore that Voldemort, at the time he was the student Tom Riddle, was the last remaining descendent of Slytherin. That leaves out a sister. There is no reason that Voldemort could not have had children in the intervening years without Dumbledore knowing about it, but no other relatives in his generation or before are possible according to the books. > Part 2 : Why did Voldemort want to kill Harry ? > Here is my theory : > Voldemort wants to kill Harry BECAUSE they are related. > Voldemort wants to kill people who are blood-related to himself: > he killed the Riddles, he killed James, but he didn't particularly > want to kill Lily. Tom Riddle didn't kill his relatives merely because they were related to him. He killed them in revenge for the way they treated his mother who died alone after giving birth to him. I believe it is also for the de facto abandonment of him as a baby that resulted from the initial rejection of his mother by his father. The above theory also contradicts canon. > Now. why does Voldemort want to kill relatives? We know what > Voldemort's supreme goal is: he is on a quest for immortality! > My theory is that he has found (or has been taught) a path to > immortality, something very, very dark indeed, the darkest > of the Dark Arts, that involves taking the lives of his relatives! Once again, the author of this theory is just making things up. There is no support in canon for this theory. I have something like this in a fanfic I wrote, but I would never dream of claiming that it is found in canon. I know for certain that it is not, and if I confused anyone about this, I'm very sorry, but fanfic is not to be used to support theses on this list. > Part 5 : Are there other descendants of Voldemort's father ? > Consider this story: James Potter is feeling very worried as never > before in his life... [snip summary of what can only be called a fanfiction] Again, this is contradicted by canon. To write a summary of a story which, if it were canon, might support this theory is a very dubious method of arguing a point. Again, the author is confusing fanon with canon. > Could Hermione be Harry's sister? Four words: Oh good lord no. I shudder to think what else is on this person's web site. Is the author reading the same books, one has to wonder? Thank god for this list... --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com Fri Sep 27 12:19:08 2002 From: lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com (lindseyharrisst) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 12:19:08 -0000 Subject: Snape, Obliviate, Neville? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44587 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "anakinbester" wrote: > Amy wroter (paraphrased) > > In some fanfics, Snape seems to have an antipathy > > toward Obliviate. Is there canon support for this? -Ani then wrote: As much as I'd like to say that Snape is hard an Neville for some nice reason, I really think he treats Neville like that simply because the poor boy is so bad in potions. I personally have thought, since we discovered the truth about Neville's parents being aurors who were now in a vegetative state in St Mungo's, that Snape's treatment of Neville is a response to his guilt about that. I am not saying that Snape was the DE who attacked them, just that he shares collective responsibilityas a former member of that group. As a reformed man, it would hurt him to bear that far more than it would someone like Lucius. While it might seem illogical, - afterall, you'd think that if you were to blame for someone's misfortune, you would try to be extra nice to make it up to them,- I think snape appears to hate Neville because the nervous, inept boy is a reminder to him of his DE days and the consequences of his actions at that time, for wich he can never atone. Anyone who knows about Neville's past must conclude that his shyness and weakness are effects of being brought up an orphan whithout the mother-love that breeds inner strength. (Before it's said, yes I know harry is also an orphan, but it effects people in different ways. Just becuse Harry is not shy does not mean that parentlessness is not the reason Neville is). Snape hates this because he feels responsible. Perhaps by being harsh he is trying to get Neville to finally "snap" and stick up for himself. This would make Nevillle more able to look after himself in a world with Voldemort on the rise and also perhaps make Snape himself feel better. Sometimes one needs to feel that one has been punished in order to move on and Snape never truly has been since Dumbledore gave him a second chance. It can only be over and forgiveness asked for once the perversley longed for punishment is complete. Readers know this method is unlikely to work, but I expect it's what Sanpe would do if roles were reversed and we all operate, to some extent basing our ideas on what would be true in our case. An additional theory is that Snape at some level hates Neville for his weakness because he considers that he would have been a better person and not committed DE attrocities if someone had been firmer with him as a pupil or those he killed had put up more of a fight. All it takes for evil to triamph is for good people to do nothing and he resents that he was allowed to get away with his worst excesses. He almost feels, as I said above, cheated of the right to be punished, though in this case in a slightly different way. All this does not mean he would otherwise like Neville or be demonstratively nicer to him, it just explains why he gets treated worse than any other Gryffindor. Lindsey From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Fri Sep 27 12:24:30 2002 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 12:24:30 -0000 Subject: Hermione, Winter's Tale and plot clues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44588 > Judy Ellis responds: Sirius' > name might mean "black dog," but you could NEVER have guessed on > first reading it that he was an animagus because the first time we > see Black???s name is at the beginning of SS/PS (Chapter 1) Rowling > had not yet revealed that there was any such thing. The correlation > comes as hindsight after we learn about animagi. That isn't true. Although we heard the word animagus not until Prisoner of Azkaban, we already saw in the very first chapter of Harry Potter and the Philosophers stone a witch, who can transform herself into an animal (McGonnagal as cat). So we knew that the phenomen exists, although we didn't know, how many wizards/ witches are capable to do so. However, I must admit, I didn't thought about Sirius as the Black dog, till the moment, he revealed himself. That was because I didn't know that Sirius was the name of the dog star. However, Lupin being a werewolf is really very blatant, in my opinion, and from the first moment I read the name I was sure he is either a werewolfe or a wizard who can turn into a wolf. Hickengruendler From ronib at mindspring.com Fri Sep 27 14:13:24 2002 From: ronib at mindspring.com (Veronica) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 14:13:24 -0000 Subject: The Secret Life of Arthur Weasley? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44589 Risti wrote > Also, I've always thought that Mr. Weasley seems to know an awful >lot for the Ministry position he has. I mean, think about all the >stuff Ron knows 'because dad is in the ministry.' >From me: I think Mr. W's personality has a lot to do with this. He is a friendly, likeable guy, and because he is such a good, kind person, he had lots of friends in the Ministery, in several different departments. I think there is a lot of favor swapping in the MoM. After all, Mr. W helped Bagman's brother, and in return, Bagman got him great tickets. And Mr. W is the kind of guy that wants to help his friends and other good people (like Moody). When you have good connections in lots of departments, you will learn a *lot* of stuff that you might never hear otherwise. (I've seen lots of evidence of that in the corporate world, anyway.) Now, I am not ruling out that he might have played a very important role in the fight against Voldemort. In fact, I will be surprise to hear that he didn't, but I really think the items mentioned specifically in the first post are more a result of his friendly, outgoing personality than any secrets from his past. From tracey.burkhardt at gnb.ca Fri Sep 27 13:59:51 2002 From: tracey.burkhardt at gnb.ca (iwishiwerehermione) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 13:59:51 -0000 Subject: is petunia dursley a squib? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44590 A point I think some people have missed, or at least something I've never seen questioned -- Is Petunia Dursley not a muggle, but a squib?? Reasoning: In the wizarding world, "pure blood" wizards seem to know who the other pure blooded wizarding families are. Draco Malfoy seems to be an expert on the subject. Yet, there has never been any reference to Harry as a mudblood. It seems to me that Malfoy would enjoy insulting Harry in such a mean way, yet he targets Hermione instead. In addition there is much speculation that Lily could be Dumbledore's granddaughter. If this is the case, why does everyone assume Petunia Dursley, Lily's sister, to be a muggle? It would also account for Petunia's jealousy and dislike of her sister. It is not a form of discrimination passed to her by Lily and Petunia's parents since it is clear in the Philosopher's Stone ("so we've got a witch in the family") that Petunia and Lily's parents were pleased with Lily's magical abilities. Perhaps instead of like Argus Filch, who lives on the edge of the wizarding world and longs to be a part of it, Petunia has rejected the magical world entirely as a means to cope with her lack of magical ability? If we accept that JKR's intention was to establish what "the worst kind of muggles" (Philosopher's Stone) should be through the Dursleys, then we must reject the idea that Lily is related to Dumbledore and instead consider her to be, like Hermione, a gifted muggle. From jodel at aol.com Fri Sep 27 16:11:51 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 12:11:51 EDT Subject: Snape/Petunia Connection Message-ID: <18f.edddc32.2ac5dd47@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44591 I have been giggling behind my hand at this whole thread, which strikes me as one of those gloriously silly digressions wherin one attempts to prove logically that black is white and white is red. Thank you all for some fine entertainment. Now, as to "Perseus Evans"; I suspect that if he ever existed (and, yes, I know he does in fanon), isn't it a lot more likely that he was an identity assumed by Snape than the other way around? Now, really, wouldn't it have appealed to Snape's rather spiteful sense of humor, when exercising his cleverness in creating an anagram identity for himself, to deliberately adopt a throughly "Gryffandoresquely" *heroic* name like *Perseus* coupled with the family name of that Muggle-born Evans? He was probably snickering up his sleeve when it dawned on him that the letters of his own name could be pushed into that arangement. Which leads me to suspect that the name (if it ever was used) was adopted originally in Voldemort's service, since the adoption of such a Muggle family name as Evans might have been useful in confusing any tracking. (Although given the commoness of the name there might, for all we know, actually be some wizarding Evanses, even if no connection to Petunia and Lily.) -JOdel From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Fri Sep 27 17:09:53 2002 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 17:09:53 -0000 Subject: Speculation on Potters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44592 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tim" wrote: > I'm currently rereading PoA, and something struck me. On page 371, > US hardback, Sirius is speaking about Peter. > > "But then I saw Peter in that picture... I realized he was at > Hogwarts with Harry... perfectly positioned to act, if one hint > reached his ears that the Dark Side was gathering strength again... > ready to strike at the moment he could be sure of allies... and *to > deliver the last Potter* to them. If he gave them Harry, who'd dare > say he'd betrayed Lord Voldemort? He'd be welcomed back with > honors..." > > * emphasis mine > > Just thought that this added more fodder for the fact that Voldy was > after the Potters, and not Lily (she was only a Potter by marriage). > And Harry seems to be the last of the Potter line. > > Tim A. Good point. It might fit with the Heir of Gryffindor theories. I wonder if Voldy eliminated other Potter relatives too. Milz From crussell at arkansas.net Fri Sep 27 17:35:39 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 17:35:39 -0000 Subject: Speculation on Potters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44593 > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tim" wrote: > > > And Harry seems to be the last of the Potter line. > > > > Tim A. Then Milz said: > Good point. It might fit with the Heir of Gryffindor theories. I > wonder if Voldy eliminated other Potter relatives too. Now me: In my post #44497, I too asked the question: how many Potters did Voldemort eliminate before he got to James and Harry? IMO, there had to have been more Potters around the time Harry was 1 year old. James and Lily were in their twenties -where were their parents? What about aunts and uncles on James' side? Potter cousins? Could this be one of the questions that according to JKR, Harry is going to start asking in book 5? Speaking for myself, questions, concerning my parents, their parents and so on, would be topmost in my mind. bugaloo37 From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Sep 27 17:49:59 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 17:49:59 -0000 Subject: "Are the Shades of Goderic's Hollow to be thus polluted?!" (was: A new thou In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44594 Pen wrote: >>Is it really surprising that we haven't heard anything more about Penelope Clearwater? She and Percy were going out together while they were at school. He left school. If Penelope left school at the same time Percy did, there's no reason to assume she lived and/or worked anywhere close enough to Percy for them to be able to continue seeing one another.<< Possibly. But Percy did carry on their relationship over several summers, owling frequently in CoS and PoA. Also he can Apparate, so unless Penelope has gone very far away indeed, he'd be able to visit her. We don't know how Penelope feels about Percy. But Percy does seem to have been emotionally invested in Penelope in CoS. Look at the way he reacts when she's Petrified. And he keeps her picture by his bedside in PoA. Pen says further: >>I can't see any reason to suppose that Penelope is pining for her lost love, or heartbroken by his ruthless severing of all ties in order to further his ambitions! Perhaps she is, but is that really the most likely of all possibilities?<< In our world, perhaps not. We don't consider seventeen-year-olds to be grown up, and we pretty much expect teenage romances to founder on the shoals of adulthood. But Rowling is not writing about late teen/twenty somethings trying to find themselves. For better or worse, wizards find themselves at age eleven, with the aid of the Sorting Hat. Perhaps this is why they don't seem to feel the need for a period of self discovery after school, and why they seem to trust their teen romances will last. But Rowling *is* writing about the effects of prejudice and the way it distorts our thinking. One can be vastly interested in all things Muggle, and want them to be protected, without ever considering them as potential members of one's family. A certain condescension creeps into Molly's and Arthur's tone whenever Muggles (bless them!) are discussed. I'd be surprised if Rowling doesn't develop this potential conflict further, either through Ron/Hermione or Percy/Penelope or both. Pippin From kaityf at jorsm.com Fri Sep 27 18:26:53 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 13:26:53 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape/Petunia Connection In-Reply-To: <18f.edddc32.2ac5dd47@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020927130102.0126e008@mailhost.jorsm.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44595 JOdel wrote: >I have been giggling behind my hand at this whole thread, which strikes me as >one of those gloriously silly digressions wherin one attempts to prove >logically that black is white and white is red. Thank you all for some fine >entertainment. Glad to have contributed to your entertainment. Personally, I think it's fun to try to fit what we know from the books into theories of what might have happened and what will happen. As far as I know, the HP series is the only series to get such attention while the story is still in progress. We know more information is coming, but we can only guess at what it is. It's interesting to see how people put together its and pieces from canon to come up with both predictions and explanations. I'm not one who believes in a Snape/Petunia connection, but the theories aren't all that outlandish, and I don't see them as either digressive or silly. They are based on canon and help explain parts of the story line and attitudes of characters. They also lead to certain predictions. JOdel continued: >Now, as to "Perseus Evans"; I suspect that if he ever existed (and, yes, I >know he does in fanon), isn't it a lot more likely that he was an identity >assumed by Snape than the other way around? *More* likely? Not necessarily. It's certainly another possibility, but I don't know that I see it as more likely. Like many aspects of HP, we simply don't have enough information to be sure. Some of us see things one way, others see something else. >Now, really, wouldn't it have >appealed to Snape's rather spiteful sense of humor, when exercising his >cleverness in creating an anagram identity for himself, to deliberately adopt >a throughly "Gryffandoresquely" *heroic* name like *Perseus* coupled with the >family name of that Muggle-born Evans? One thing I never attributed to Snape was a sense of humor -- of any kind. I agree he's spiteful, but where's his humor? And why pick Lily's name? Because she married James? I would think it more likely for him to choose Black's name to work with. JOdel again: >He was probably snickering up his >sleeve when it dawned on him that the letters of his own name could be pushed >into that arangement. Now there's an image that never arose in my mind! Snape snickering! The best I can come up with is an evil grin. More from JOdel: >Which leads me to suspect that the name (if it ever was used) was adopted >originally in Voldemort's service, since the adoption of such a Muggle family >name as Evans might have been useful in confusing any tracking. Yes, it might, but again why would Snape choose that name? Why single out Lily? I think it is possible that Snape might have picked the name Perseus Evans to use in service of Voldemort, but even that theory has problems. It rather begs the question of why he picked that name to being with. It also leads me to wonder what old Voldie would think about one of his followers hiding behind a pseudonym. Voldemort doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who would appreciate that. We know that he had the kindest words in GoF for those followers of his who refused to deny their allegiance to him. JOdel again: >(Although >given the commoness of the name there might, for all we know, actually be >some wizarding Evanses, even if no connection to Petunia and Lily.) Maybe. But this too begs the question of why Snape would choose that particular name. The thing that got me wondering about the names is the fact that it's way too coincidental. I'm having a hard time imagining that JKR could have used these names purely by coincidence. Even if Snape used name of some wizarding Evans family, he still had to do so for some reason, particularly since he doesn't strike me as a stupid guy and must have been fully aware that Evans was the name of James Potter's girlfriend/wife. Hopefully, we'll learn more when book five comes out (impatient glance at calendar). JKR did say, I believe, that we'll learn more about Lily and James and what they did for a living. Maybe it will also shed some light on the relationship, whatever it may be, between Snape and James and Snape and Lily. Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From kaityf at jorsm.com Fri Sep 27 18:34:44 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 13:34:44 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape/Petunia Connection [was Snape's "Mind Set"] In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.1.6.0.20020926105227.0305d008@mailhost.jorsm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020927132942.01269760@mailhost.jorsm.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44596 Carol Bainbridge wrote about a connection between Snape and the Evans family, basically that Snape and Lily could be half-siblings. To which Acire replied: >An excellent theory, but I see one problem: Lily and James were the >same age, which we know because someone (I think Hagrid, only a week >until I get my canon back!) said that they were Head Boy and Girl >the same year. Well, James was friends with Lupin, who was in the >same year as Snape. So we are left to pretty much assume that Lily >and Severus were the same age. So, how is it that they can be >related in that way...unless they were twins? Dang. I thought I had worked all the bugs out of that theory. I don't think they'd be twins. If I went that route, I'd have to change a lot of the rest of my theory. I guess I'll have to put further theorizing on this one on hold for 6 months until the new book comes out. (IF it comes out in 6 months!) Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From crussell at arkansas.net Fri Sep 27 18:50:52 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 18:50:52 -0000 Subject: "Are the Shades of Goderic's Hollow to be thus polluted?!" (was: A new thou In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44597 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "pippin_999" wrote: > One can be vastly interested in all things Muggle, and want them to be protected, without ever considering them as potential members of one's family. A certain condescension creeps into Molly's and Arthur's tone whenever Muggles (bless them!) are discussed. Pippin I have never noticed any condescension on the part of Molly or Arthur Weasley. In fact, in CoS, they are very considerate and helpful to Hermione's parents. IMO, you certainly cannot compare the Weasleys behavior to that of the Malfoys-father and son. Condescension, IMO, is a type of snobbery. I simply have not noticed anything but down- to-earth, thoughtful, kind-hearted responses to Muggles or Muggle- borns from the Weasley parents. If you would, please provide some examples of this condescension. I am eager to discover anything I have overlooked in my reading. bugaloo37 From rvotaw at i-55.com Fri Sep 27 19:16:26 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (rvotaw at i-55.com) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 14:16:26 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] is petunia dursley a squib? Message-ID: <4805530.1033154186698.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44598 Iwishiwerehermione wrote: > A point I think some people have missed, or at least something I've > never seen questioned -- Is Petunia Dursley not a muggle, but a > squib?? Actually, I've heard this discussed a number of times. It would, however, make no sense for Lily to claim to be muggle born if she were indeed a pure blood or half blood. > In addition there is much speculation that Lily could be Dumbledore's > granddaughter. If this is the case, why does everyone assume Petunia > Dursley, Lily's sister, to be a muggle? I've never heard that bit of speculation. I hardly see how, more like great grandaughter or great great grandaughter. It's only assumed that Petunia is a muggle because Lily is widely referred to as a muggle born. If indeed Petunia is a squib instead of Lily being a muggle born, there must be some really really good reason for Lily to basically enter Hogwarts under a false pretense of being a muggle born. If, perhaps, she had a "bad name" that Dumbledore or whoever didn't want her associated with or stereotyped by, claiming to be muggle born would explain why no one knew her "new name." On another note, I just thought of a term that needs to be developed by JKR. Is anyone called "full blood?" I seem to remember this term used, but can't remember where. To me, couldn't Harry be a full blood? Not pure--as his ancestors can't be traced back through wizardhood. But since *both* parents were wizards/witches, couldn't he be considered "full blood?" If "half blood" is one parent wizard/witch and one parent muggle? Richelle Why on E ---------- A point I think some people have missed, or at least something I've never seen questioned -- Is Petunia Dursley not a muggle, but a squib?? Reasoning: In the wizarding world, "pure blood" wizards seem to know who the other pure blooded wizarding families are. Draco Malfoy seems to be an expert on the subject. Yet, there has never been any reference to Harry as a mudblood. It seems to me that Malfoy would enjoy insulting Harry in such a mean way, yet he targets Hermione instead. In addition there is much speculation that Lily could be Dumbledore's granddaughter. If this is the case, why does everyone assume Petunia Dursley, Lily's sister, to be a muggle? It would also account for Petunia's jealousy and dislike of her sister. It is not a form of discrimination passed to her by Lily and Petunia's parents since it is clear in the Philosopher's Stone ("so we've got a witch in the family") that Petunia and Lily's parents were pleased with Lily's magical abilities. Perhaps instead of like Argus Filch, who lives on the edge of the wizarding world and longs to be a part of it, Petunia has rejected the magical world entirely as a means to cope with her lack of magical ability? If we accept that JKR's intention was to establish what "the worst kind of muggles" (Philosopher's Stone) should be through the Dursleys, then we must reject the idea that Lily is related to Dumbledore and instead consider her to be, like Hermione, a gifted muggle. ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rlundgren at gov.mb.ca Fri Sep 27 18:41:33 2002 From: rlundgren at gov.mb.ca (freya122000) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 18:41:33 -0000 Subject: Speculation on the Potters Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44599 For awhile now I thought it was odd that Harry seemed to have no really interest in finding out about his past. It is odd to me, because I was adopted at birth and although I had wonderful parents I was still interested in my birth family. It was by no means an all consuming passion, just interest. I hope JKR will show us this in Harry as I find it unbelivable that a child wouldn't be interested in their past. I also belive that Voldy was after the "Potters" and not Lily. But I think that many of the Potters escaped his DEs. Freya From rlundgren at gov.mb.ca Fri Sep 27 15:08:42 2002 From: rlundgren at gov.mb.ca (freya122000) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 15:08:42 -0000 Subject: Dursley's being Harry's only Living Relatives Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44600 IMHO, and if I am wrong please correct be post haste, but I see no proof that the Dursley's are Harry's only living relatives. Dumbledore stated in PS/SS that they were simply the best place for Harry at this time, he never says "only living relatives", that is only in the movie. And I do belive Dumbledore knew what the Dursley's where like and that one of the reasons he picked them. He wanted to protect Harry from the fame etc he would face in the WW and yet did not want him to reject that world in favour of the "safe muggle" world. Freya From mailowen at aol.com Fri Sep 27 19:24:00 2002 From: mailowen at aol.com (dowen331) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 19:24:00 -0000 Subject: Muggles/Muggle-born: what's the difference? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44601 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bugaloo37" wrote: >...Even Tom Riddle aka Voldemort seems to interchange the two > phrases at will. In CoS, Tom Riddle refers to Lily Potter >as being "muggle-born"- a witch (most definitely!) with no magical >ancestry. In GoF, Voldemort compares Lily to his own hated father- >a muggle. I've been quickly scanning my digests to see if anyone else had responded to this. I just have one (minor) point to make that I think clarifies Voldemort's comment in GoF, and may aid the discussion of definitions of these terms. At the graveyard in GoF, as bugaloo stated above, V'mort compares Lily to his father. Paraphrasing, he says "My father was a muggle and a fool--much like your mother." I always took that to mean Harry's mother was a *fool* like Tom Riddle, not that she was a muggle. He considers her a fool because she sacrificed her life needlessly for her child. I don't think this particular scene can be used to define what V'mort considers "muggle" vs "muggle-born." That's all. Hope that helps someone! deb331, going back to lurking From crussell at arkansas.net Fri Sep 27 20:21:02 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 20:21:02 -0000 Subject: Speculation on the Potters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44602 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "freya122000" wrote: > I also belive that Voldy was after the "Potters" and not > Lily. But I think that many of the Potters escaped his DEs. Freya This is very interesting. And given what you said in your next post concerning the fact that the Dursleys's were not necessarily Harry's only living relatives (something apparently the movie added), it adds to the notion that the Dursley's were perhaps Harry's only Muggle relatives. And since Dumbledore was trying to separate Harry from his WW fame, placing him with Muggles would be acceptable. But, IMO, one still has to wonder: if there are other Potters out there-where are they? Are they in hiding like Harry's parents were before their secret-keeper betrayed them? Can we hope to find them later in the series? I hope so. I am so eager to find out. bugaloo37 From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Fri Sep 27 20:42:34 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb P) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 13:42:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dursley's being Harry's only Living Relatives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020927204234.87664.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44603 freya122000 wrote: IMHO, and if I am wrong please correct be post haste, but I see no proof that the Dursley's are Harry's only living relatives. Dumbledore stated in PS/SS that they were simply the best place for Harry at this time, he never says "only living relatives", that is only in the movie. I'm afraid that you are mistaken. On page 15 of Philosopher's Stone, Dumbledore says, "I've come to bring Harry to his aunt and uncle. They're the only family he has left now." I hope that helps. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Sep 27 21:07:01 2002 From: MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM (mitchbailey82) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 21:07:01 -0000 Subject: Speculation on the Potters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44604 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "freya122000" wrote: > For awhile now I thought it was odd that Harry seemed to have no > really interest in finding out about his past. It is odd to me, > because I was adopted at birth and although I had wonderful parents I > was still interested in my birth family. It was by no means an all > consuming passion, just interest. I hope JKR will show us this in > Harry as I find it unbelivable that a child wouldn't be interested in > their past. Now me I don't find this supprising at all. In PS (one of the early chapters) it is stated that when Harry asked about his scar Petunia gave the infamous 'car' explanation and then retorted 'don't ask questions', and it is then pointed out that don't ask questions is the first rule of a quite life with the Dursleys. The truth is that Harry isn't used to asking questions and getting an honest, polite reply especially when it comes to his parents. When he first meets Hagrid and their on the boat Harry tries not to ask questions to Hagrid whilst he's reading the paper as he's learned from Vernon that people don't like to be disturbed when reading the paper. Although he is asking more and more questions some things are hard to 'unlearn' he's used to not being able to ask questions (whilst in the Dursley's company) so actually asking questions doesn't come naturally or easily to him. But he is improving so hopefully we will get to hear/read/see him asking those important questions about his parents and their past soon. Michelle From eloiseherisson at aol.com Fri Sep 27 21:12:31 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 17:12:31 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Speculation on the Potters Message-ID: <11e.174eb2e7.2ac623bf@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44605 bugaloo37 writes to Freya: > This is very interesting. And given what you said in your next post > concerning the fact that the Dursleys's were not necessarily Harry's > only living relatives (something apparently the movie added), it adds > to the notion that the Dursley's were perhaps Harry's only Muggle > relatives. IIRC, canon does indeed not say that the Durlsey's are Harry's only living relatives, but that, 'They're the only family he has left now'. Yes, it does. I've just checked (Ch. 1, PS/SS). What this *means* of course is open to speculation, but given the Dursley's treatment of Harry (they are family only in the most basic of senses) then I think the interpretation 'only living relatives' is perfectly reasonable. If this phrase is used in the CWMNBN (I've only seen it once) then I would hope that it had JKR's approval, particularly as the speculation which abounds on the subject is affected profoundly by whether or not it is accurate. Could she really sanction the use of a statement which contradicted some important plot development in a later book? Or did she not have a say? Personally, I choose to interpret Dumbledore's words in their most obvious sense, that the Dursleys *are* Harry's only living relatives and I reject all theories which try to prove that he is related to Snape, or Voldemort or Dumbledore, until proved wrong, at which point, as I have had to do before, I will eat my pointy black hat. Yes, it is true that one of Dumbledore's highest priorities was to save Harry from the effects of early adulation. But if Snape is his uncle, as some speculate, would he really let him grow up with a sense of his own importance? No! (The broom cupboard would probably be a kinder option!) And later we learn of the protection that Harry has from staying with his family. Would Dumbledore really let him stay with the Durselys if there was another family member with whom he would enjoy the same protection? If Arabella Figg, as we speculate, has been willing to adopt the life of a Muggle, then surely a wizarding relative might do the same in order to protect him from both Voldemort and the effects of fame? (That sounds a bit 'Disney Sleeping Beauty' as opposed to ' A bit Star Wars', but I think it's valid.) I'll take a lot of convincing that there's a strong argument in favour of Harry's having other blood relatives. Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kaityf at jorsm.com Fri Sep 27 21:31:46 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 16:31:46 -0500 Subject: Crooked/hooked noses Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020927163134.02c2c8a0@mailhost.jorsm.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44606 As long as we're creating wild speculations, would anyone care to try their hand with the meaning of all the hooked and crooked noses? I looked in the archives and didn't see anything there. Maybe JKR just likes to write about hooked and crooked noses. Snape has a hooked nose. Dumbledore has a very crooked nose. Krum has a hooked nose. I can't remember if anyone else does. With the first two characters, JKR draws our attention to the shape of the noses all the time. Dumbledore is always looking down his very crooked nose. Snape's nose shape is referred to equally often. It may mean absolutely nothing at all, but it just struck me last night as I was reading CoS for the umpteenth time. 'Course, maybe I just think it's mentioned a lot because I've read the books so many times. Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Sun Sep 22 21:44:13 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 22:44:13 +0100 Subject: The Houses Mystery Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44607 The Houses Mystery I'm sorry if this has been discussed before, but I don't get as much time as I would like to read pervious messages. I've often been puzzled by the contradiction between Hagrid's assertion that all the dark wizards came from Sythenian house and the existence of Peter Pettigrew, who was a close friend of James Potter and a dark wizard, betraying them. If he was, as is genially assumed, in Gryfindor, then he should not have been a dark wizard, and if he was in Sythenian, why would he and James be friends? Harry and Co. appear to have no close friends from any of the other houses. I think I have solved that problem. If you want, like Voldemort, to be a dark wizard, you need ambition and the willingness to bend or break the rules in pursuit of your goal. All Sythenian traits, but you don't have to be evil to bend the rules; Barty Crouch Sr. was prepared to order the use of the unforgivable curses to fight Voldemort, and Sirus defined him as powerful and ambitious, all Sythenian traits. We don't know for sure what house he was in, but I'll bet ten gallons (I'd better win, I don't have ten gallons) that he was a Sythenian. Now, Barty Crouch Jr, who bravely attempted to free Voldemort and lied for him (something Hermione did for Harry) and therefore exhibited Gryfindor traits. Was he in Gryfindor? We don't know, but I suspect that he was. Snape, who was in Sythenian, showed no loyalty to Voldemort and betrayed him to Dumbledore. Lucis Malfloy did not search for Voldemort either. Therefore, I think that only the boss dark wizards have to be in Sythenian, such as Tom Riddle, and they corrupt the other houses, using their traits to ensnare them. Thoughts? Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Sep 27 23:56:21 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 23:56:21 -0000 Subject: "Are the Shades of Goderic's Hollow to be thus polluted?!" (was: A new thou In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44608 I wrote: > One can be vastly interested in all things Muggle, and want them to be protected, without ever considering them as potential members of one's family. A certain condescension creeps into Molly's and Arthur's tone whenever Muggles (bless them!) are discussed. Bugaloo37: >>I have never noticed any condescension on the part of Molly or Arthur Weasley. In fact, in CoS, they are very considerate and helpful to Hermione's parents. IMO, you certainly cannot compare the Weasleys behavior to that of the Malfoys-father and son. Condescension, IMO, is a type of snobbery. I simply have not noticed anything but down-to-earth, thoughtful, kind-hearted responses to Muggles or Muggle-borns from the Weasley parents. If you would, please provide some examples of this condescension. I am eager to discover anything I have overlooked in my reading.<< The Weasleys are indeed not comparable to the Malfoys. They don't want to hurt or terrorize Muggles. But that doesn't mean that the Weasleys' ethnocentricity never shades into insensitivity or ethnic superiority. Molly's very first line in PS/SS, "Packed with Muggles, of course," establishes that she considers Muggles to be Other, and a nuisance as well. Her remark about the stretched interior of the car, "Muggles *do* know more than we give them credit for, don't they?" also shows a sense of superiority. As for Mr. Weasley, at his first sight of the Grangers, he says, "But you're *Muggles*" as if it never occured to him that Ron might have a Muggle-born friend, and then he actually grabs Molly's hand and points at them. It also never occurs to him that the Grangers might want to do something with their limited time in the wizarding world besides have a drink with him (and answer all his questions about Muggle life.) It sounds condescending to me that he says, "Bless them" whenever he talks about Muggle shortsightedness. He doesn't talk that way about the House Elves, for example. And his Muggle Protection Act is no doubt well-intended, but we don't usually talk about protecting those we consider equals. I don't think Arthur and Molly do any of this consciously, but I also don't think they're quite as accepting of Muggles as they think they are. Pippin From i_am_erasmas at yahoo.ca Sat Sep 28 01:55:40 2002 From: i_am_erasmas at yahoo.ca (i_am_erasmas) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 01:55:40 -0000 Subject: "Are the Shades of Goderic's Hollow to be thus polluted?!" (was: A new thou In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44609 > > Bugaloo37: > >>I have never noticed any condescension on the part of Molly or > Arthur Weasley. In fact, in CoS, they are very considerate and > helpful to Hermione's parents. IMO, you certainly cannot > compare the Weasleys behavior to that of the Malfoys-father and > son. Condescension, IMO, is a type of snobbery. I simply have > not noticed anything but down-to-earth, thoughtful, kind-hearted > responses to Muggles or Muggle-borns from the Weasley > parents. If you would, please provide some examples of this > condescension. I am eager to discover anything I > have overlooked in my reading.<< > Me: I have to agree with Bugaloo here. But then again I'm a big fan of the whole Weasley family. Pippin: > The Weasleys are indeed not comparable to the Malfoys. They > don't want to hurt or terrorize Muggles. But that doesn't mean that > the Weasleys' ethnocentricity never shades into insensitivity or > ethnic superiority. Molly's very first line in PS/SS, "Packed with > Muggles, of course," establishes that she considers Muggles to > be Other, and a nuisance as well. Her remark about the > stretched interior of the car, "Muggles *do* know more than we > give them credit for, don't they?" also shows a sense of > superiority. Me (Erasmas): There is a huge difference between seeing others as different and seeing yourself as superior. I don't know where you get the idea that Molly is finding the muggles to be a nuisance. To me it's just an observation. The key part of that scene is that Harry recognises that there is a witch nearby. He may not have found and followed them unless someone was talking. They're in a busy section of muggle london, so it seems natural that one of them is commenting on how many muggles are around. Pippin: > As for Mr. Weasley, at his first sight of the Grangers, he says, > "But you're *Muggles*" as if it never occured to him that > Ron might have a Muggle-born friend, and then he actually grabs > Molly's hand and points at them. Me (Erasmas): The tone I had in my head as I read this was Arthur being delighted to run into some muggles that he could talk freely with. Pippin: >It also never occurs to him that > the Grangers might want to do something with their limited time > in the wizarding world besides have a drink with him (and > answer all his questions about Muggle life.) Me (Erasmas): Ummmm ... I have no idea where this comes from. Why shouldn't he invite them for a drink? If everyone acted as you seem to be suggesting, nobody would ever make any friends. The full quote is: '"But you're Muggles!" said Mr. Weasley delightedly. "We must have a drink!"' To me that sounds like a welcoming invitation. > > It sounds condescending to me that he says, "Bless them" > whenever he talks about Muggle shortsightedness. He doesn't > talk that way about the House Elves, for example. And his > Muggle Protection Act is no doubt well-intended, but we don't > usually talk about protecting those we consider equals. > Me (Erasmas) Equality isn't the issue here. Arthur is fascinated by muggles and concerned for their welfare. The muggle and wizarding worlds need to coexist, and the reason there are things like muggle protection acts in the wizarding world, and there aren't wizarding protection acts in the muggle world, is that wizards in general are aware that muggles exist. Muggles in general don't know wizards exist. If they did, I'm quite sure there would be an even greater need for a wizard protection act in muggle law. There's plenty of Dursley like attitudes in the muggle world that there would be no shortage of muggles that want to stamp out all that wizarding nonsense. Pippin: > I don't think Arthur and Molly do any of this consciously, but I also > don't think they're quite as accepting of Muggles as they think > they are. I think the big difference here is the tone of voice that we hear in our heads as we're reading the same story. If the voices in your head are speaking condescendingly, then your take on the characters is that they are condescending. Erasmas From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Sat Sep 28 02:07:23 2002 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 02:07:23 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "Are the Shades of Goderic's Hollow to be thus polluted?!" (was: A new thou Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44610 >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook >wrote: > > I wonder, would even "Muggle-lovers" like the Weasleys > > behave towards a Muggle-born like Hermione (or Lily) the way >theCampbell clan behave towards Phebe: She's a good girl, to >be loved and helped on every occasion, but when it comes to >one marrying into their clean, stainless family, then all of sudden >the general view is that the DE's may have a point? > > > >I have wondered that as well, especially in light of the apparent >disappearance of Muggle-born Penelope Clearwater from Percy >Weasley's post-Hogwarts life and her absence from GoF. Did >Percy decide she was a hindrance to his ambitions and drop >her? Was this behind Ron's belief that Percy might sacrifice a >family member for the sake of his career? > >Pippin > *giggle* Points for the Jane Austen quote in the header!!! *Was* Penelope Clearwater muggle-born? Oh - was that the basis for her being petrified by the basilisk? I'd have to go back and check - I genuinely don't remember that. My take on why Penelope was dropped from GoF? nothing as deep as what you've speculated here - just that there's was a school romance of 'boy likes girl' rather than "boy loves girl and vice versa" and both knew it was ending after 7th year when they went off to pursue their careers. We don't see what Penelope's doing; perhaps *she's* off studying dragons in the Faeroes and broke it off with Percy. It may not be a 'guy drops girl because she'll be a hindrance" sort of thing at all. Percy didn't hide his connection with Penelope at home because of her antecedents, but because he knew darned well his siblings would make merry hell of his life if they knew. Once it came out - he had no compunction about going to sit with her on the Hogwarts Express, in front of his whole family. I doubt that all wizards and witches are as bigoted as the Malfoys - they're probably an extreme end of the bell curve. There probably just isn't much interaction with the "purer" wizarding families, as with the Weasleys - it's not that they have anything against muggles, but they don't have that much in common with them; there are things they'd have to keep from them; and they're absorbed in their own pursuits. it's not much different than never getting to know your neighbors in a modern town; it definitely does happen. I almost never make friends with neighbors because I almost never have anything in common with them. I suspect that, between Arthur Weasley's fascination with all things Muggle and his greater degree of interaction with them, the fact that Hermione's matter of factly welcomed into the family bosom (and, c'mon, Arthur and Molly aren't stupid - bright girl, family full of teenaged boys - *any* of their sons could take a fancy to Hermione); the fact that the Weasleys collectively have a lot of common sense despite their individual idiosyncracies; and, hey, the fact that Molly was upset with Hermione when she thought she was breaking Harry's heart - not that she dared "date" a pureblood, or two! - all argue to me that they'd be right proud to have the class valedictorian as their daughter-in-law. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Sat Sep 28 02:16:12 2002 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 02:16:12 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Location of Durmstrang Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44611 Hi all: In point of fact, I didn't ask - this isn't an exact quote of my e-mail - I was speculating right along with everyone else. :-) Be that as it may...my guesses of Beauxbatons and Durmstrang pretty much concur with what was written: the south end of the Loire Valley, before one hits the Midi, in a chateau. I based that on the same factors - the wearing of silks, suggesting a mild climate, and Fleur's fondness for bouillabaise, which is a classic dish of the Riviera/French Mediterranean seacoast. And for Durmstrang, somewhere around Murmansk or Kola. As for the Germanic influences, we don't know when the other schools were founded - whether they're newer or older than Hogwarts. One of my thoughts was that Durmstrang might be much newer than the other two, or at least been through a renaming, from the time when Peter the Great brought many foreign experts to modernize Russia - Germans and Scots among them. :-) Why not have a few wizards slip in and found a school? Felinia > >--- In HPforGrownups, "Steve" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups, "Jesta Hijinx" wrote: > > > > Jesta Hijinx almost asked but was betrayed by he email > > program 'Where is Durmstrand?' > > > > > Unfortunately, we are not told too much about the > > location of Beauxbatons, though the impression seems > > to be given of a palace like to the royal palaces in > > the Loire-valley (decorated tastefully, without > > stuffed k-niggets and poltergeists). I will assume it > > to be in a relatively mild area, in a chateau akin to > > Chambord or Azay le Rideau (the ultimate Romantic > > Fairytale palaces). > > > > Of Durmstrang we know as much that it must be quite a > > distance to the North, in a region with lakes (I am > > presuming Viktor Krum knows the difference between > > lakes and fjords) AND mountains, and also with access > > to the sea (I am presuming the ship is an oceangoing > > ship). This rules out all of Lithuania, Latvia and > > Estonia, as these, between them, do not contain a > > single peak higher than 318 metres (1043ft) - sorry, > > Rita. In fact, Latvia is no further North than > > Scotland it edges just North of the 58th Parallel, > > and it is South of all of Norway (save Queen Maud Land > > and the Bouvet Island in Antarctica, and the halfway > > mythical Sjettnan's Isle in the South Pacific). > > Formally speaking, it was also outside the Holy Roman > > Empire of the German Nation, which stretched no > > further North than the borders of Denmark (at least > > according to my Atlas of History from school, but then > > it labelled Yugoslavia as a NATO-member too...). > > Denmark proper, being even flatter than the Baltic > > states, is all out, the Faeroe Islands are to small, > > and Greenland is too far out of the way for anyone to > > bother going there. > > > > Finland has plenty with lakes, but no mountains except > > in the extreme West and North, where there are few > > lakes. Norway all the way up to the Polar Circle has > > plenty of both, and is plenty dark in the Winter. > > Sweden likewise has plenty of both along the 62nd > > latitude all the way to the joint between Finland, > > Norway and Sweden. Unfortunately, the combination of > > lakes and mountains is mostly found inland, a distance > > away from the sea only in Norway can it be found > > near the sea, mainly on the Western coast between 62N > > and 64N, and between 65N and 66N. There is also a > > location near Narvik, at ca. 68N. > > > > Besides these, there is a further opportunity, even > > further to the North: Murmansk Oblatsk (I am not > > certain if `Oblatsk' means county, shire, state or > > something else), on the Kola Peninsula. It is an > > appropriately barren area, with a number of lakes, and > > a number of proper mountains. The need to be close to > > the sea, seems to favour a location at the inner end > > of the bay called Kandalakskaja Guba, in the White > > Sea. > > > > One could also look at this linguistically. While > > Durmstrang is a name derived from German (from Sturm > > und Drang, a literary movement advocating the > > abandonment of sense), and seems to indicate a German > > relation, both Karkaroff and Viktor Krum are Slavic. > > This suggests a closer connection to Russia and > > Eastern Europe than Germany, though that may be a > > later development. To me, it doesn't not seem > > immediately logical that Slavic students would accept > > learning in German, rather than Russian, for instance, > > when Slavic-speakers certainly are numerous enough to > > justify one or more schools on their own > > particularly as see have the impression of a historic > > form of antipathy between Slavic and German nations in > > Europe (the Teutonic Order wasn't always nice guys, > > even if Eisenstein overdid things a bit). Both the > > connection to Germany and the connection to the East, > > reduce the probability of Norway being the location of > > Durmstrang, as Norway at the time Hogwarts was founded > > was primarily oriented towards England, Scotland and > > the West, while Sweden was oriented towards the East > > (essentially Russia was founded by Swedish Vikings) > > and the South (Sweden had an extensive trade with the > > Hansa-Bund). If Scandinavian students are split > > between the large academies, then it is more plausible > > to me that the Norwegians end up at Hogwarts, with the > > Swedes at Durmstrang, than all of Scandinavia being > > under Durmstrang. This is also because of the very > > strong influence from Danes and Norwegians in the time > > before William the Conqueror (just look at the > > linguistic parallels York-Jorvik, church/kirk-kirke, > > husband-husbond, (hus-)wife-(hus-)viv, etc.) > > > > In the region in question here (Northern Germany, > > Scandinavia, Northern Russia West of the Ural > > Mountains) there are four Language-groups: the > > Finnish-Ugrian (sp?) group (Finnish, Estonian, Sami, > > Hungarian), the Baltic-Slavic group (Lithuanian, > > Russian, most East-European languages), the > > North-Germanic languages (Norwegian, Swedish, Danish, > > Icelandic) and West-Germanic (primarily German in this > > context (but English belongs in this group too, > > according to my source)). I rather suspect that these > > language-groups, rather than mixing and matching, > > would each tend to itself, education-wise. > > > > I would rather not see Durmstrang end up in > > Scandinavia, due to a fanfic-project I have, which may > > (or may not) lift off sometime before book V. I have > > presumed that Norway, Denmark, Sweden and Iceland have > > a joint school somewhere (In Norway, in my case, as I > > am Norwegian, and Norwegian folklore is the only one I > > know much), as the Scandinavian languages are (and > > have always been), very close. This leaves for me > > only the option of putting Durmstrang in Murmansk > > Oblatsk, probably somewhere near the city of > > Kandalaka, at the White Sea. I am wondering whether > > to include Finns and Estonians in this, only > > Swedish-speaking Finns or no Finns or Estonians at all > > (with, perhaps, a joint Finnish-Estonian-Hungarian > > Institute (due to the languages being related), of > > course founded by Ilmarinen and Vainaminen.) , as > > Finland was very strongly tied to Sweden for > > centuries. > > > > I hope I did not get too boring (again, it is late, > > with the attendant bad effects on my ability to > > structure. I have to do it at home, however, as that > > is where I have all my books). > > > > Regards > > > > ===== > > "There are two trillion six-houndred and sixtyfive billion eight- >houndred and sixtysix million, seven-houndred and fortysix thousand, >six-houndred and sixtyfour litte devils in the world" > > --------------------------------------------- > > Christian Stub > > Student of Technology, architectura navalis > _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Sat Sep 28 04:03:49 2002 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 04:03:49 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wand cores -Random Thoughts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44612 >Another thought-- >Maybe multiple wands are purchased on the basis for different uses. >One wand might be good for transfiguration, while another might be >suited for charms, or perhaps advanced Dark Arts. > >Or, you have freaks who just like to collect wands.. think Muggle gun >collections and make the connection =) > Fyre Wood - this is a really *cool* idea. i get the impression a wand is a major purchase - you shouldn't really *need* more than one, whe you're starting out - but it doesn't say anywhere you can't *have* more than one. And I would love to see a rarity wand collector. Getting wandds from abroad, made with heartstrings of dragons not native to Britain... Felinia _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com Sat Sep 28 05:05:39 2002 From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 22:05:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Book Five's Almost Here! [filk] Message-ID: <20020928050539.23784.qmail@web40303.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44613 Book Five?s Almost Here! to the tune _The Battle Hymn of the Republic_ Dedicated to CMC and Nicole http://www.contemplator.com/folk2/battle.html but listen to the Mormon Tabernacle Choir version if you can find it! The Scene: (spring or summer, 2003) A very large crowd is standing outside a bookstore at five minutes to midnight, awaiting the release of _Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix_. (A lone fan starts singing. Everyone turns to look and listen) Mine eyes hath seen the glory of the coming of Book One When books Two and Three came out, I read each word of them ?till done Book Four was such a masterpiece, JK herself outdone Now book Five's almost here! (People start to join-in) Glory, glory hallelujah! We?ll have Book Five in hand soon-ah Underneath this midnight moon-ah Oh, Book Five's almost here! (Everyone is singing now, and they sound surprisingly like the Mormon Tabernacle Choir) She had to spend two long years suff?ring in litigation And this drove our favorite author JKR to distraction We found that Stouffer?s "evidence" was just fabrication But now Book Five is near! Glory, glory hallelujah! Over now is the gag rule-ah! Stouffer never more will sue-ah! Oh, Book Five's almost here! JK Rowling had to work to iron out the "Flints" and the mysteries unlock, such as what means Dumbledore?s glint And writing chapters interesting but close to her blueprints Now Book Five?s almost here! Glory, glory hallelujah! Please don?t tell us, "April Fool-sah!" or it will become mob rule-ah Please let Book Five be near! (As the clock chimes midnight, JKR emerges from the bookstore. A hush comes over the crowd as they stare in amazement at this unexpected visitor. In one arm is her new baby; in the other outstretched hand she is holding a pillow with Book Five sitting on top in all its glory. The clouds part; a shaft of moonlight shines directly upon the book. A male quartet steps forward and quietly sings in four part harmony...) (Slowly, with much feeling) With a beauty just like Lily?s, JKR is carrying Two precious new babies, one is bundled-up and drooling; The other is our long-awaited book, so now we sing, (Back to tempo, and loudly) "Oh, Book Five is now here!" (The entire choir now sings in glorious harmony) Glory, glory hallelujah! And a moment not too soon-ah! Now our speculations prove-ah! Oh, Book Five is now here! (Crescendo) Amen! Amen! (During the "amens", JKR slowly raises the book up as everyone stretches their hands towards the much anticipated Book Five) ~Lilac, who thinks Darrin would have liked the name "Jerry O and the Mo-Tabs" (a nickname for the MT Choir around these parts) for a band name. ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* "Tut, tut --- hardly any of you remembered that my favorite color is *lilac*. I say so in Year with the Yeti." --Gilderoy Lockhart, COS --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jodel at aol.com Sat Sep 28 05:07:58 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 01:07:58 EDT Subject: Speculation on the Potters Message-ID: <169.1489093b.2ac6932e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44614 Another possibility; Suppose that the fidelius charm works a little differently from how we have all assumed. The way it usually seems to be interpreted, it will hide you from all but your secret keeper. Once the charm has been performed, no one can find you. But you hide yourself physically, anyway. This doesn't sound like a viable solution over any kind of a long run. A fine temporary measure to take until an emergency situation is brought to an end, but what if the situation is open-ended? (As was the situation that the Potters found themselves in.) WERE James and Lily expected to disapear from the WW and just stay gone, with it assumed that they had managed to excape Voldemort, but would probably never be seen again unless the war ended? Or does hiding yourself under the Fidelius charm free you to take up another identity since no one will ever be able to recognize you as the person the charm is hiding? And what happens to you if your secret keeper dies? Can you ever get your own identity back? Will you ever be able to convince anyone that you are *you*? Or are you stuck? Now, I am prepared, for the sake of simplicity to believe that James Potter had indeed lost his parents. I am also prepared to believe, in the absence of solid information to the contrary that he might have been an only child. But he may have had at least a few other relatives. What if some of them had already hidden themselves under the Fidelius charm? And then lost their secret keeper? Where are they? (Who knows?) Can they come forward themselves? (Well, maybe not.) Can you still say that this is Harry's family? (Well, yes.) Are they family which for any practical purposes actually exist insofar as Harry's welfare is concerned? (Not really.) Well, this is far from certain, yes. But not an impossibility. Leaving the Dursleys as "all the family Harry has left". Although, frankly, I very much doubt that Rowling is going to pull this card, or any other like it out of her sleeve... -JOdell From catlady at wicca.net Sat Sep 28 05:47:52 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 05:47:52 -0000 Subject: earthquake/Slytherin/Genetics/James/Justice/WizardWealth/Lucius/Snake/more Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44615 Pip!Squeak wrote: << Britain is currently treating its overnight 4.5 Richter scale earthquake as headline news. Showing that we are *really* not used to earthquakes. Things shook! Gosh! Chimmneys even fell off! Wow! >> It seems to me that chimmneys that fell off at a mere 4.5 weren't very well constructed in the first place. Kronos wrote: << I'd hesitate -- mightily -- to call Ambition "deviousness" or evil (ambition being the cardinal attribute of Slytherin). Indeed, one can easily be ambitious without being evil. >> I know that the Sorting Hat SAYS that Ambition is the defining characteristic of Slytherin, but observation of the Slytherin individuals in canon suggests that Ambition is not the main characteristic that the Hat is looking for when assigning kids to Slytherin House. A lack of scruples seems to be much more defining (and much more related to turning evil): "Those cunning folk use ANY MEANS // To achieve their ends." (my emphasis) Using "any means" means that the ones who are clever enough to be devious will be devious when it serves them, but I suspect that Crabbe and Goyle are too stupid to be devious, and also too stupid to be ambitious. I personally get the unproveable feeling that VENGEFULNESS is what Tom, Severus, Lucius, Draco, Vinnie, and Greggie have in common. We certainly have Ambitious Gryffindors (Percy, to be Head Boy and have a successful adult career; Hermione, to get the best marks ever; Angelina, to be Triwizard Champion) and an Ambitious Hufflepuff (Cedric). Old Salazar himself must have wanted students who were not only Ambitious and Unscrupulous, but clever: I can't imagine him accepting Crabbe and Goyle as his students. He *might* have allowed Draco to keep them as his servants and send them to sleep in the servants' quarters (with the House Elves? in the gamekeeper's hut?). Ksnidget wrote: << However this idea is contradicted by cannon. We have any number of 1/2 and 1/2's that are magical. Actually all the kids we know that are 1/2 and 1/2 are magical. And to date we haven't heard of any 1/2 and 1/2 that is non-magical, and we haven't heard that 1/2 and 1/2's have non-magical siblings. >> It is NOT contradicted by canon. First, "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence": just because we haven't heard of any Muggle siblings of wizarding children doesn't mean they don't exist. FURTHERMORE, any purely genetic system would have some Muggle siblings of magic children. If magic was a dominant gene M, many wizards and witches would be Mm and if they had children with a Muggle mm, half the children would be Mm and half mm, so half the children would be Muggles. That includes your suggestion that the dominant gene M is one that was created by the number of repeating elements becoming greater each generation until first it becomes long enough that the phenotype is somewhat abnormal and then keeps getting longer, making the condition worse every generation. We can account for magic children being more than the predicted percentage by assuming non-genetic mechanisms ... maybe a non-magic embryo cannot implant in a magic womb, so only wizards but not witches could have non-magic children ... that would work with magic being either m or M; mm womb rejects mM embryo because of its alien M gene or Mm womb and MM womb reject mm embryo because it lacks M gene ... if magic is m, it could be that mm only marries Mm, never MM, become MM just 'smell wrong' to be attracted to, or m is partially expressed by Mm being more open-minded and whimsical and thus more compatible to magic person. Eloise wrote: << Is there anything anyone seriously wants to know about James, other than where he got his wealth from? >> Whether Lily was the first and only girl he ever loved ... whether Lily was the first and only *person* he ever loved, considering that the more popular question is: Was he bi-sexual? Who were his male lovers? Christi Voth wrote: << But that's not justice, that's vengeance. And I think Sirius is confusing the two, which is what I mean when I say his passions get ahead of his reason. >> I don't doubt that Sirius's passions sometimes get ahead of his reason, but assuming that justice IS vengeance seems to be the common assumption in wizarding culture, not Sirius's own personal confusion. bugaloo37 wrote: << Are the Malfoys wealthy through devious means? And the Potters wealth gained through more noble pursuits? I know in the case of the Malfoys and the Potters, that their wealth was inherited-but that money had to be earned some way-so how was it done? >> I put some theories of where the Potter and Malfoy wealth came from in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/44028 I put my Lucius theory in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/11945 JOdel wrote: << The theory with the widest degree of controversy is related to just how old Lucius is. The animosity displayed in the Flourish and Blotts scene in Chamber of Secrets is so clearly "personal" that it gives a strong hint of there being a long history between him and Arthur Weasley. I could easily see him and Arthur being the major Gryffandor-Slytherin rivals of their mutual years in Hogwarts (with Arthur narrowly beating Lucius out for the honor of being Head Boy.) >> Yes, except I don't believe that Lucius is old enough to have been in school with Arthur. My own personal timeline has Lucius born in 1950, Sevvie/MWPP/Lily born in Sept 57 to Aug 58 year (Lexicon has 1960), and Arthur and Molly (whom I believe to have been in the same year at Hogwarts) old enough that Molly remembers Ogg, the gamekeeper before Hagrid, which *to me* means the gamekeeper more than 50 years ago. They don't LOOK seventy ... neither does McGonagall! To me, Tom Riddle and Minerva McGonagall and Hagrid and Arthur and Molly had overlapping times as students at Hogwarts. So where in adult life did Arthur and Lucius take such a dislike to each other? From constantly being on the other side of every regulatory decision issued by the Ministry? << Another hint of this is the fact that Draco starts spitting slurs at the whole Weasley family the minute he lays eyes on Ron on the Hogwarts express. This all had to come from somewhere. We have absolutely no reason to assume that the Burrow is placed anywhere where the Malfoys would be required to have any interaction with the Weasleys, so it is unlikely that Draco has ever met Ron before. Clearly Draco has been sent off to school well-primed by fulminations regarding penniless redheads who breed like rabbits from his father (who he clearly idolises). One glance at shabby, red-headed Ron is enough to identify him as "the enemy". >> Yes. I wonder if Lucius was at Hogwarts with a mob of Weasleys, Arthur's younger siblings and/or his nephews and neices. If "all the Weasleys" have more children than they can afford, then Arthur shouldn't be the only Weasley with a big family. Rita Potter wrote: << 2-Jodel, who's description of Lucius Malfoy is just a masterpiece! Although I don't quite agree with the 'mistresses' part of it. It may be something really 'aristocratic' but I see in him a sense of honour and of what's becoming to someone in his position that would make it seem quite below him to have mistresses. >> I have always assumed that Lucius Malfoy had trophy mistresses, not particularly for pleasure, but because doing so IS becoming to his position. Deharja wrote: << The Snake is associated throughout Western (esp Greek and old testament/Hebrew) mythology with femaleness. >> Hmm. I thought the Snake was associated with bisexuality / hermaphroditism, as when Tiresias saw two snakes mating, struck them with a stick, and was turned into a woman, and seven years later, again saw two snakes mating and struck them with a stick and was turned back into a man. To me, Snake is a phallic symbol (I have read that Spider is the matching kteic symbol) and I don't understand why it has female associations. ("Because it swallows things whole" doesn't seem adequate to me.) By the way, my post last week pointed out that Slytherin is the only one of the Houses that has argent as its metal; the other three all have Or (altho' I am a Ravenclaw who likes blue and silver much better than blue and bronze!), an indication of Slytherin being divided from the other three. dcyasser wrote: << "Come Wormtail, one more death and our path to Harry Potter is clear." Who is that intended victim? >> My theory is it was supposed to be Crouch Sr, and Barty was supposed to disguise himself as his father and do his thing at Hogwarts only during his official visits about with the Triwizard Tournament (which suggests that one can Polyjuice into the living likeness of a dead person by using hair/whatever that was taken while the person was still alive). My theory is that it was JKR, not Voldie or Wormie, who changed the plan to 1) Barty escaping on his own instead of being rescued by Wormie, and 2) Barty disguising himself as Moody rather than as Senior. I could SAY Voldie changed the plan after Barty escaped to him and told him about Moody having been recruited to LIVE ON CAMPUS, thus a better target. Damn! Pippin already said that! Steve B wrote: << Speaking of Quidditch, do you think that the American wizards play it? Or did they invent their own game played on brooms? >> QTTA says that American wizards play prefer their own broom game, Quodpot, but do have some Quidditch teams worth mentioning, such as the Sweetwater All-Stars. Iwishiwerehermione wrote: << In addition there is much speculation that Lily could be Dumbledore's granddaughter. >> I am sure that Lily and Hermione are both pure Muggle, because that is the moral of JKR's story. However, if Lily *were* related to one of the wizarding characters, I think Dumbledore is more likely than the Weasleys, because Lily's hair is "dark red", which is closer to Dumbledore (in CoS flashback)'s "auburn" than the Weasley flame-red. If Lily *were* related to one of the alive wizarding characters, WHY did Dumbledore say that the Dursleys were "the only family" Harry had left? To which Richelle replied: << I hardly see how, more like great grandaughter or great great grandaughter. >> Probably "how" is by Lily's mum's hypothetical mum having been somewhat younger than Dumbledore. Especially if Lily's grandma was a Muggle. We don't know at what age witches have menopause (I suspect around 70, as the wizarding folk have been shown to age slower as well as live longer) and how long they are fertile. From eloiseherisson at aol.com Sat Sep 28 07:47:32 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 03:47:32 EDT Subject: 'One more death' (was Catlady's portmanteau post) Message-ID: <186.ee8477f.2ac6b894@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44616 Catlady: > dcyasser wrote: > > << "Come Wormtail, one more death and our path to Harry Potter is > clear." Who is that intended victim? >> > > My theory is it was supposed to be Crouch Sr, and Barty was supposed > to disguise himself as his father and do his thing at Hogwarts only > during his official visits about with the Triwizard Tournament (which > suggests that one can Polyjuice into the living likeness of a dead > person by using hair/whatever that was taken while the person was > still alive). My theory is that it was JKR, not Voldie or Wormie, who > changed the plan to 1) Barty escaping on his own instead of being > rescued by Wormie, and 2) Barty disguising himself as Moody rather > than as Senior. I could SAY Voldie changed the plan after Barty > escaped to him and told him about Moody having been recruited to LIVE > ON CAMPUS, thus a better target. > > Damn! Pippin already said that! There was a new development in this mystery when this topic was discussed last month (when a lot of people were away, I think.) Just for the record, it turns out that the phrase, 'one more death' occurs only in US editions of GoF. In the British, Canadian and Spanish versions (and presumably in any other versions translated from the UK text), the phrase used is, 'one more curse', which seems to make more obvious sense: Crouch Sr. was put under Imperius to allow the escape of his son. It seems to me to be another example of a pre-publication authorial correction which made it into the UK edition, whilst somehow missing the US one. But it perhaps suggests either (as Catlady says) that JKR herself changed the plot slightly or else that she was anticipating his murder later in the book. Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Sep 28 08:03:01 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 08:03:01 -0000 Subject: Dursley's being Harry's only Living Relatives In-Reply-To: <20020927204234.87664.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44617 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Barb P wrote: > > freya122000 wrote: > IMHO, and if I am wrong please correct be post haste, but I see no proof that the Dursley's are Harry's only living relatives. Dumbledore stated in PS/SS that they were simply the best place for Harry at this time, he never says "only living relatives", that is > only in the movie. BARB: > > I'm afraid that you are mistaken. On page 15 of Philosopher's Stone, Dumbledore says, "I've come to bring Harry to his aunt and uncle. They're the only family he has left now." > > I hope that helps. > > --Barb > bboy_mn: I have to agree with Barb, but at the same time I have to fudge a bit. Harry could have some distant cousin in Sardinia or Timbuktu or where ever. But when you are placing an orphan usually only close relatives are considered. It needs to be a grandparent, aunt, uncle, possibly even a great uncle or aunt (brother or sister of grandparent), older adult brother/sister, etc... Once you get beyond this immediate cirle of relatives, those who remain are to distant to even be considered. So, my point is that, in the techincal sense, there could be people who qualify as a relative of Harry's, but in any realistic or practical sense, sadly, the Durleys seem to be it. I know. Pretty much a worthless nitpicking point, but I'm trying to earn my membership in LOON - League of Obsessed Nitpickers. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Sep 28 08:29:51 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 08:29:51 -0000 Subject: Crooked/hooked noses In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020927163134.02c2c8a0@mailhost.jorsm.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44618 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Carol Bainbridge wrote: > As long as we're creating wild speculations, would anyone care to > try their hand with the meaning of all the hooked and crooked noses? ...snip... Carol bboy_mn: I think JKR is just perpetuating the stereotype that all witches and wizards have long crooked noses. If I recall correctly even Ron had a long nose. If you think about fairy tale respresentations of witches, whether graphic/artistic or written, they usually have long crooked noses. So, I think JKR used this a common characteristic typically associated with this kind of people. Just a thought. bboy_mn From percyweasley99 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 28 01:00:31 2002 From: percyweasley99 at yahoo.com (percyweasley99) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 01:00:31 -0000 Subject: Gryffindor's New Quidditch Team Members... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44619 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Fyre Wood" wrote: > But what happens when Book 6 comes about and Gred/Forge graduate? > What about when Angelina, Alicia, and Katie do as well? Who will get > put in their places? In Book IV, Angelina Johnson is 17 years old, so does this mean she graduated at the end of Book IV? If so then there's a vacant position for chaser. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Fyre Wood" wrote: > I do agree with most people that Ron *will* make the team--it's just > a matter of time as to *when* he will do so. It would be cool if it was Ron. It would give him more shot at being popular. But really, I think the house Quidditch league will be a non-factor in the books if not altogether scrapped. Quidditch doesn't seem as important with the current situation at hand. -Percyweasley ------ Visit my website at http://geocities.com/percyweasley99 From penumbra10 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 28 01:41:29 2002 From: penumbra10 at yahoo.com (Judy M. Ellis) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 01:41:29 -0000 Subject: Hermione, Winter's Tale and plot clues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44620 "hickengruendler" wrote: >Although we heard the word animagus not until > Prisoner of Azkaban, we already saw in the very first chapter of > Harry Potter and the Philosophers stone a witch, who can transform > herself into an animal (McGonnagal as cat). So we knew that the > phenomen exists, although we didn't know, how many wizards/ witches > are capable to do so. However, I must admit, I didn't thought about > Sirius as the Black dog, till the moment, he revealed himself. That > was because I didn't know that Sirius was the name of the dog star. > However, Lupin being a werewolf is really very blatant, in my > opinion, and from the first moment I read the name I was sure he is > either a werewolfe or a wizard who can turn into a wolf. Well spotted! I completely forgot about McGonagall. I do stand corrected. But wasn't that bit wonderfully clever of JKR? As an adult who reads a great deal-- as you also must-- I immediately guessed Remus (From the Roman myth of Romulus and Remus who as infants were suckled by a wolf)-- Lupin (derived from a root meaning of course, wolf) was a werewolf too. But in our analyses of these books, which we all find so fascinating, we must keep in mind that they were originally intended for children and as I said in my post, only one of my 12-year-old students spotted that at once--and these are bright children. For a child, the clue was just that, a clue, and not at all that obvious. --Judy From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Sat Sep 28 13:29:25 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb P) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 06:29:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dursley's being Harry's only Living Relatives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020928132925.36057.qmail@web13003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44621 Steve wrote: --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Barb P wrote: > > freya122000 wrote: > IMHO, and if I am wrong please correct be post haste, but I see no proof that the Dursley's are Harry's only living relatives. Dumbledore stated in PS/SS that they were simply the best place for Harry at this time, he never says "only living relatives", that is > only in the movie. BARB: > > I'm afraid that you are mistaken. On page 15 of Philosopher's Stone, Dumbledore says, "I've come to bring Harry to his aunt and uncle. They're the only family he has left now." > > I hope that helps. > > --Barb > bboy_mn: I have to agree with Barb, but at the same time I have to fudge a bit. Harry could have some distant cousin in Sardinia or Timbuktu or where ever. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I fail to see how "the only family he has left" is open to interpretation. When it comes to LOONiness, those words are extraordinarily clear. This statement leaves absolutely no leeway; there is no way that Harry has relatives anywhere else, given Dumbledore's statement, assuming that he is a) telling the truth; and b) fully informed of Harry's family situation. There can only be relatives in Sardinia or Australia or whatever if Dumbledore does not know about them. He is having a private conversation with McGonagall and has no reason to lie. We can speculate about his not KNOWING about other relatives all we like, but the fact remains that in the book, he says uncategorically that that is not the case. If he knew of relatives in other countries, I believe that he would, in fact, find that preferable to placing him in England, where Harry is in fact occasionally recognized by members of the wizarding community as he grows up. Dumbledore had no other option because it is made very clear by JKR that there are no other options. Sometimes she's cagy, but not here. She's stated it very plainly and I am mystified by further attempts to read other meanings into Dumbledore's clear, succinct words. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From myphilosophy2001 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 28 07:07:17 2002 From: myphilosophy2001 at yahoo.com (Moonstruck) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 00:07:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Is Lupin Doomed? Message-ID: <20020928070717.20750.qmail@web20804.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44622 I seem to have a horrible track record with my HP preferences. First, my hopes hope for a H/Hr pairing grow dimmer every day. Now, as I reread PoA, I can't help but notice several clues (which go along with others I'd all ready culled) pointing to the immanent death of Remus Lupin, who I desperately adore. It's common knowledge that there will be more, higher-profile deaths in the remaining three books of the series. JKR has commented that Lupin will be back in OoP and I've heard (whether it's been confirmed or not, I'm unsure) he'll play a large roll in Book 7, so if he does die, I don't think it will be until the end of the series -- a small consolation. Anyway, here's why I think Lupin is a marked man: * The obvious clue is the Remus/Romulus myth. As I'm sure every true HP fan knows by now, the twins founded Rome, but disagreed on who would rule. Being alpha males, their solution was, of course, to fight to the death. Romulus kills Remus. It follows, then, that the obvious fate for Remus Lupin is death. After all, JKR could have just as easily named him *Romulus* Lupin (though it really doesn't have quite the same ring to it). * Another thing that worries me is Peter Pettigrew's brand new silver hand. Anyone who's ever seen a B-grade werewolf movie knows that *silver* bullets kill werewolves. And given Pettigrew's less than civil relationship with his old friends, it makes sense that he and Lupin might someday find themselves battling one another. * Lupin's graying hair: I've given this a great deal of thought, as the fact that Lupin is prematurely aging is obviously symbolic of or foreshadowing something. I have two theories on this. First, given that Lupin seems to serve as a source of wisdom and academic expertise. I've always felt he exemplifies the "man of intelligence" in PoA. So the gray hair could be a personification of his knowledge/wisdom. What I consider more plausible, however, is that Lupin's premature graying signifies a premature death. * When we're introduced to Lupin in PoA, he certainly seems half dead. Ron, Harry, and Hermione comment on how very sickly he looks (apparently, the full moon had just passed). Ron mentions that he looks like he needs to eat. JKR describes him as having a "pallid profile" and a "tired, gray face." Again, the *gray* symbolism. Ron makes some observances that could also be a foreshadowing Lupin's demise: " 'He looks like one good hex would finish him off, doesn't he?' " Could this be a direct indication of how Lupin will die? Or is it indicative of Lupin's tenuous, and ultimately doomed, hold on life? When the lady with the food cart arrives at their compartment, R/H/Hr consider waking the soundly sleeping Lupin in case he's hungry. Ron is a bit unsure of Lupin's condition. " 'I mean - he hasn't died, has he?' " (79) Self-explanatory. * The nature of Lupin's lifestyle makes him an obvious target for elimination. In a sense, Lupin only lives a half-life He divides his existence between a relatively normal (though, one suspects, quite lonely and nomadic) human existence and a tortuous lycanthropy that robs him of all cognitive ability, subjecting him to purely animal impulses. In other words, "Remus Lupin" is basically nullified when he transforms into a werewolf. And even when he is in his human incarnation, he's often sickly to a decidedly ominous nature. Indeed, in light of the fact that that there is no cure for Lupin's lycanthropy (and I highly doubt JKR's going to come up with some miracle potion at the eleventh hour)he may even be willing to sacrifice his life for Harry and his friends. As a plot device, it might serve to "put him out of his misery." He seemingly has no family and very few loyal supporters -- and you get the sense that he doesn't stay in one place very long. Thus, his ties this world are somewhat lean. In death, he could finally escape his loneliness and have the peace that eluded him in life. Isn't that terribly sad? I hope I'm wrong. -Jessica ===== "Oh, I'll settle down with some old story/About a boy who's just like me/Thought there was love in everything and everyone/You're so naive!/After a while they always get it/They always reach a sorry end/Still it was worth it as I turned the pages solemnly, and then/With a winning smile, the boy/With naivety succeeds/At the final moment, I cried/I always cry at endings" - "Get Me Away From Here I'm Dying," Belle and Sebastian __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From potter76 at libero.it Sat Sep 28 13:18:37 2002 From: potter76 at libero.it (Rita) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 15:18:37 +0200 (ora legale Europa occ.) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Crooked/hooked noses References: Message-ID: <3D95AC2D.000001.49051@i3a2c5> No: HPFGUIDX 44623 Carol Bainbridge wrote: > As long as we're creating wild speculations, would anyone care to > try their hand with the meaning of all the hooked and crooked noses? ...snip... bboy_mn answered: I think JKR is just perpetuating the stereotype that all witches and wizards have long crooked noses. If I recall correctly even Ron had a long nose. If you think about fairy tale respresentations of witches, whether graphic/artistic or written, they usually have long crooked noses. So, I think JKR used this a common characteristic typically associated with this kind of people. And I say: I couldn't come up with a possible meaning for the crooked noses, but Steve provided one which is also related to what I'm going to say about hooked noses. JKR relies very much on stereotypes for her characterisation and hooked nose= ugly?d. This doesn't mean that she subscribes to this logic, she just uses it, mainly to misguide us, to create false expectations. So far, all the characters who have been given unpleasant appearances have also been suspected of being 'bad': Snape, Karkaroff, Krum but they all turned out not to be so. Crouch sr. also is somewhat unpleasant and therefore suspected of being up to no good, while jolly Bagman's past and present( his gambling problems) are a real surprise to both characters and readers. And here we get to something that annoys me a little, even if we are shown that everyone can make mistakes and commit crimes, still Bagman's crimes are a trifle compared to Karkaroff's, Snape's ( we don't actually know what he did as a DE, but being one is already much worse than betting, not paying debts, and being careless when speaking to a friend of your dad) and Crouch's ruthlessness. So, it seems that, on one hand, she wants to prove that one cannot judge a book by its cover, but on the other that if some covers are much nicer than others it has to mean something! I'd like to add a little thing about Dumdl's nose: I tend to associate a broken nose (please tell me if it's only me) with a fight, so to me D's nose is a kind of 'token' of his past battles (Grindelwald above all), a sign of being a warrior and a Gryffindor. Obviously, we don't know if it was really broken twice, but the narrator use this simile to describe it (PS ch. 1), we could be supposed to take it literally as well as not. Rita- who is wondering if she missed some important info as everyone seems to be hinting at the publication of book 5 and she knows nothing about it! From Calypso8604 at aol.com Sat Sep 28 14:08:56 2002 From: Calypso8604 at aol.com (Calypso8604 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 10:08:56 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dursley's being Harry's only Living Relatives Message-ID: <161.14af0ec6.2ac711f8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44624 Barb writes: > I fail to see how "the only family he has left" is open to interpretation. > When it comes to LOONiness, those words are extraordinarily clear. This > statement leaves absolutely no leeway; there is no way that Harry has > relatives anywhere else, given Dumbledore's statement, assuming that he is > a) telling the truth; and b) fully informed of Harry's family situation. I pretty much agree that the Dursleys are Harry's only living relatives though I do think there could be a way that "the only family he has left" could be open to interpretation. Harry could have other living relations that are not physically capable of taking care of him. Neville Longbottom, for example, has his parents still *alive* yet they can't really be considered family he still has. In a sense, he doesn't have parents anymore much like Harry. There is a possibility of Harry having an aunt or grandmother or something in St. Mungo's in the a condition similar to the Longbottoms. Granted I myself think the theory is unlikely but it *is* a possibility Calypso [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tctruffin at yahoo.com Sat Sep 28 14:17:04 2002 From: tctruffin at yahoo.com (Todd C. Truffin) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 14:17:04 -0000 Subject: Gryffindor's New Quidditch Team Members... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44625 >> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve" > wrote: > I think Ron will demonstrate that he is much better > than Harry at devising play stategy, and directing the effective > training of the other members. So, I predict > that in book 6, it will be Ron who is the team > captain, not Harry. I absolutely agree that Ron will prove to be a better strategician than Harry. Ron proves in the very first book that he has excellent strategy AND leadership skills by directing the wizard's chess game. He demonstrates a clear appreciation of the goals of the team and is willing even to sacrifice himself for the good of the team. This isn't to say that Harry has no leadership capabilities, but as Ron matures, his strategic thinking will too. I look forward to seeing a very capable Ron come of age in the next books. Todd From tctruffin at yahoo.com Sat Sep 28 14:23:59 2002 From: tctruffin at yahoo.com (Todd C. Truffin) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 14:23:59 -0000 Subject: Gryffindor's New Quidditch Team Members... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44626 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "percyweasley99" wrote: > But really, I think the house Quidditch league will be a > non-factor in the books if not altogether scrapped. > Quidditch doesn't seem as important with the current > situation at hand. Perhaps, but if we take current events in the U.S. as any model (or rather if JKR takes them), we can see a certain value to maintaining such diversions, for mental health if nothing else. In the weeks post-9/11 there were a few delays/reschedules/cancellations of major league "quidditch" matches, but they soon resumed and gave us not only some relief but also a venue for some interesting--if not moving--demonstrations of solidarity. Quidditch itself may not be important to the cause of defeating V, but it certainly is representative of the better aspects of the wizarding life. As a symbol, it may be important to keep it going as a sign that V has not won. (At least that seems to be the logic I hear spouted around here.) Todd From daniel.brent at cwctv.net Sat Sep 28 12:04:50 2002 From: daniel.brent at cwctv.net (evenflow200214) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 12:04:50 -0000 Subject: Barty Crouch Jnr - More To It Then Meets The Eye Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44627 His character has left me extremely confused. In fact, I would like to see an FAQ on him when they've finished the others Things to discuss: Was he actually guilty of torturing the Longbottoms? We know that he's a Death Eater but does anything validate the theory that he was then? The evidence against him is flimsy. He was not caught at the scene, just caught in the company of Death Eaters. No- one's sure if he was with them - not even Dumbledore is sure, Dumbledore who is so quick to defend people or show his indignation for them has "no idea" on the issue of Crouch's guilt/innocence. Sirius, who we assume knew him at school as Crouch seems only two or three years younger than the Marauders has no idea. We have never had a confession from Crouch even at the end... he has never admitted anything. His trial was not really a trial at all, it was said as much "an excuse so Crouch snr could show how much he hated the boy". The judge was biased. The other three accused pretty much ignored Crouch. The Ministry was also under great pressure to catch someone - remember when it happened in CoS with Hagrid. The same type incident - Hagrid was innocent. Is he as loyal to Voldemort as we would imagine? Why did he put Harry through the Imperius Curse five times and didn't tell Voldemort about it? Voldemort obviously didn't know or he wouldn't of tried it at the cemetary. Its like he was teaching Harry to beat Voldemort... and he renounced him in court. Screamed that he wasn't involved yet is his most loyal servant. Something does not add up... "Daniel" From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sat Sep 28 14:34:56 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 14:34:56 -0000 Subject: Quidditch must stay (was:Gryffindor's New Quidditch Team Members...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44628 Percyweasley grimly stated: >>>But really, I think the house Quidditch league will be a non-factor in the books if not altogether scrapped. Quidditch doesn't seem as important with the current situation at hand. <<< So I reply: What a terribly sad thing to say. Granted in times of war and sadness, the gentle and playful parts in our lives do seem...well silly, but they are very important to our sanity and balance. Yes, who wins the House Cup doesn't matter in the world view anyway but the skills learned in quidditch could be important to the cause. The whole reason people play sports, besides for fresh air and sunlight, is for exercise, to learn stategy, precision, and teamwork. All skills much needed in battles if in fact battles are needed in this war. In comparison to our time today, the Army and Navy still play football. Their first game after September 2001 was very emotional but also very grounding. It wasn't a matter of priorities but a continuance of normal life in face of adversity. THe kids in HP are still untrained wizards, and school much go on no matter the circumstances. If the "good guys" are to win, then they need a legacy, and thus, the kids need to have a reliable atmosphere to feel safe and learn what they need. There is no reason why they need to worry about Voldemort in school. Thier worrying does not help the cause and could infact hurt it. As in CoS, the school must carry on and finish its reason for existing in the first place. Quidditch may not be incredibly important to the WW, but it is a good and vital distraction that the kids, and teachers, desperately need. The removal quidditch would give the kids too much free time to sit around and stew with worry and anxiety about how life is changing. They do not need that weight on thier shoulders. Keep quidditch in schools. It keeps little hands busy. Melody From daniel.brent at cwctv.net Sat Sep 28 11:18:25 2002 From: daniel.brent at cwctv.net (evenflow200214) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 11:18:25 -0000 Subject: The Houses Mystery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44629 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Christopher Nuttall" wrote: > The Houses Mystery > > Hi, I'm new to this group. I'm sixteen (seventeen in a couple of months). I hope no-one minds me jumping in to answer this > > I'm sorry if this has been discussed before, but I don't get as much time as I would like to read pervious messages. > > > > I've often been puzzled by the contradiction between Hagrid's assertion that all the dark wizards came from Sythenian house and the existence of Peter Pettigrew, who was a close friend of James Potter and a dark wizard, betraying them. If he was, as is genially assumed, in Gryfindor, then he should not have been a dark wizard, and if he was in Sythenian, why would he and James be friends? Harry and Co. appear to have no close friends from any of the other houses. I think I have solved that problem. > > The only reference we get to the Dark Wizard/Slytherin theory are all through biased characters. Hagrid was the first wizard that Harry has contact with (or at least remembers having contact with). It is natural that he will believe Hagrid's assertion. Hagrid himself has a particular bias against Slytherin as he was expelled when Dippet believed him to be the heir of Slytherin. I don't know if Hagrid links Tom Riddle with Voldemort though but that is for another thread. Peter suits either Gryffindor or Slytherin, maybe Ravenclaw. The only house that he does not suit is Hufflepuff. He is mocked for his supposed cowardice yet he has done many brave things, albeit for evil. A lesser man would not have had the nerve to face Sirius after betraying the Potters, they would have gone underground. But Peter allowed Sirius a chance to fight and Sirius lost. He also allowed himself excruciating pain to get Voldemort back to power, the way he cut his arm off shows a brave man and to completely fool Dumbledore and whole wizarding community shows the actions of an intelligent man who has a knack for survival. He also became an Animagus and with or without help, it is a difficult skill to master > > If you want, like Voldemort, to be a dark wizard, you need ambition and the willingness to bend or break the rules in pursuit of your goal. All Sythenian traits, but you don't have to be evil to bend the rules; Barty Crouch Sr. was prepared to order the use of the unforgivable curses to fight Voldemort, and Sirus defined him as powerful and ambitious, all Sythenian traits. We don't know for sure what house he was in, but I'll bet ten gallons (I'd better win, I don't have ten gallons) that he was a Sythenian. > > I agree. I don't think all Slytherins are evil, a word which you cannot define Crouch snr. Sirius' evidence may not be appropriate for full analysis as he's view is somewhat biased with the circumstances surrounded his arrest and sentence but Crouch's behaviour in the Pensieve, locking away his own son to push himself towards the top of the ladder, shows the actions of a man with ruthless ambition > > Now, Barty Crouch Jr, who bravely attempted to free Voldemort and lied for him (something Hermione did for Harry) and therefore exhibited Gryfindor traits. Was he in Gryfindor? We don't know, but I suspect that he was. > Barty Crouch jnr is extremely complex (thread coming up on that). He has a potential match with any of the houses. Gryffindor - To have the audacity to masquarade as the best friend of the greatest wizard of all time, to challenge Moody, to risk a certain death if you're caught... it takes a certain bravery Hufflepuff = His loyalty to Voldemort. On the surface he is Voldemort's most loyal servant. No-one said that being loyal meant that you were good Ravenclaw = Twelve OWLS. Fantastic acting ability to have the intelligence to fool Dumbledore Slytherin = Wants to be close to Voldemort and will do anything to get there > > Snape, who was in Sythenian, showed no loyalty to Voldemort and betrayed him to Dumbledore. Lucis Malfloy did not search for Voldemort either. > > Loyalty is not a general Slytherin quality, that's more on the Hufflepuff side of the coin. There must have been a very good reason for Snape to play with his life, leaving Voldemort is full power, knowing full well he could die, to support Dumbledore. The popular theory that floats around on fan fics and other boards is that (and I'm sure everyone's probably heard it) that Snape was in love with Lily. Its possible but JKR has publicly said that there was no love triangle between Snape/Lily/James so maybe not > > Therefore, I think that only the boss dark wizards have to be in Sythenian, such as Tom Riddle, and they corrupt the other houses, using their traits to ensnare them. > > I disagree with this. Look at Crabbe and Goyle. They are not leaders by any stetch of the imagination. Even Malfoy is not really a leader as he blindly follows his father's beliefs. "Daniel" From i_am_erasmas at yahoo.ca Sat Sep 28 17:10:54 2002 From: i_am_erasmas at yahoo.ca (i_am_erasmas) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 17:10:54 -0000 Subject: Crooked/hooked noses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44630 > bboy_mn: >I think JKR is just perpetuating the stereotype that all witches and >wizards have long crooked noses. If I recall correctly even Ron had a >long nose. > I dunno. Rowling has a gift for creating vivid descriptions of characters using very few details. For example, about all we have for a description of Harry is messy black hair, glasses, green eyes, small for his age, and skinny. But every one of us I'm sure has a very clear image in their mind of Harry. Dumbledore's eyes are noted more often than anything else. In my mind, Krum is defined more by his brooding than his hooked nose. Ron's nose is mentioned as being long, but not once does Rowling mention the colour of his eyes. Ron's smile is described in a number of ways -- he has a lot of ways of expressing his emotion through his smiles. Weasley eye colour is only mentioned once in four books, when Harry sees Ginny's bright brown eyes disappear behind her door in the Burrow in CoS. Apparently the Weasley eyes, with the exception of Ginny's bright brown ones, are unremarkable. Hermione's brown eyes are only mentioned incidentally in CoS as they are changing from cat- yellow to her normal brown. The most remarkable aspect of Karkaroff's description is that when he smiles, his smile rarely reaches his eyes. Very powerful description here in very few words; Karkaroff is an actor. Draco and Lucius' remarkable characteristics are their identical cool gray eyes, pale skin, and fair hair. I could hardly call a description of four character's remarkable noses as perpetuating a stereotype. Erasmas From purple_801999 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 28 17:46:13 2002 From: purple_801999 at yahoo.com (purple_801999) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 17:46:13 -0000 Subject: The Houses Mystery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44631 Daniel wrote- > Loyalty is not a general Slytherin quality, that's more on the > Hufflepuff side of the coin. There must have been a very good reason > for Snape to play with his life, leaving Voldemort is full power, > knowing full well he could die, to support Dumbledore. The popular > theory that floats around on fan fics and other boards is that (and > I'm sure everyone's probably heard it) that Snape was in love with > Lily. Its possible but JKR has publicly said that there was no love > triangle between Snape/Lily/James so maybe not > > When did Rowling say that? Do you happen to know the interview in which she said it? Man, that would really blow the LOLLIPOPS theory to hell in a handbasket. Unless of course she said it to throw people off track. I still think we have wiggle room with the Lily was Severus's friend theory though. And would it still count as a love triangle if Lily and James were unaware of Snape's crush? Olivia Grey From purple_801999 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 28 18:01:53 2002 From: purple_801999 at yahoo.com (purple_801999) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 18:01:53 -0000 Subject: Barty Crouch Jnr - More To It Then Meets The Eye In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44632 Daniel wrote- > His character has left me extremely confused. In fact, I would like > to see an FAQ on him when they've finished the others > Another thing to ponder is if Crouch Jr. had the Dark Mark on his arm. Wouldn't that prove his involvement with the Death Eaters and confirm his guilt? Olivia Grey From gandharvika at hotmail.com Sat Sep 28 18:35:39 2002 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 18:35:39 +0000 Subject: Re[HP4Grownups]Ravenclaw Fight Song(FILK) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44633 Ravenclaw Fight Song (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of the _Texas Tech Fight Song_) Listen to it here: http://www.netheaduniversity.com/schoolT.htm Ravenclaws! I'm surprised at you! It's almost been a week and we haven't heard from you? Well, being the magnanimous Hufflepuff that I am, here's a fight song for the Claws :)> ****************************************************** Fly Eagles fly! Fly Eagles fly! Fight for the House we love so dearly Beaters hit 'em high Beaters hit 'em low Throw the Quaffle through the goal Ravenclaw! We'll praise her name Boost her to fame Fly for the Bronze and the Blue Beaters hit 'em, Chasers score 'em Hit 'em, score 'em, Ravenclaw 'em And the victory cry we'll call out -Gail "Go Badgers" B. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Sat Sep 28 18:43:56 2002 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 11:43:56 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Barty Crouch Jnr - More To It Then Meets The Eye In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <572824149.20020928114356@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44634 Saturday, September 28, 2002, 5:04:50 AM, evenflow200214 wrote: e> Why did he put Harry through the Imperius Curse five times and didn't e> tell Voldemort about it? Voldemort obviously didn't know or he e> wouldn't of tried it at the cemetary. Its like he was teaching Harry e> to beat Voldemort... and he renounced him in court. Screamed that he e> wasn't involved yet is his most loyal servant. e> Something does not add up... I'm glad I'm not the only one... I've always wondered why he's about to kill Harry in Moody's office when he *knows* V wants to do it to prove his supremacy (or if you accept MAGIC DISHWASHER, at least send Harry back with false info for Dumbledore). I think either that Crouch by that time was so ga-ga he was no use even as an effective DE, or... That he was playing a double-game all along, meaning to emerge as the *new* "biggest bully in the playground"... -- Dave From gerson at voicenet.com Sat Sep 28 18:48:28 2002 From: gerson at voicenet.com (jabig33) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 18:48:28 -0000 Subject: The Bones Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44635 Hi everyone! This is my first time posting, so please be nice to me. I was rereading SS this morning and something caught my attention. I have searched the archives and couldn't find anything, but if this question has already been answered, I apologize. In Chapter Four, The Keeper of Keys, Hagrid told Harry the names of some of the great wizards that Voldemort had killed. Hagrid says "No one ever lived after he decided to kill 'em, no one except you, an' he killed some o' the best witches an' wizards of the age- the McKinnons, the Bones, the Prewetts..." I was wondering if those Bones were of any relation to Susan Bones. I know its a minor thing, but I am curious as to how many children Voldemort had left orphans. Sorry if this has already been discussed. Abi From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Sat Sep 28 19:56:10 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 19:56:10 -0000 Subject: TBAY - Despiadado Denethor, Imperius, and Cruciatus Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44636 "The Aurors were given new powers -- powers to kill rather than capture, for instance. And I wasn't the only one who was handed straight to the dementors without trial. Crouch fought violence with violence, and authorized the use of the Unforgivable Curses against suspects. I would say he became as ruthless and cruel as many on the Dark Side." - Sirius Black, GoF (Author's Note: In the Spanish edition, Sirius accuses Crouch of being "despiadado," a word that I couldn't translate, but proved a hit with list members.) Eileen reads the quote over several times. Of course, Sirius Black never lies or exaggerates. So it must be true. "Not having much success with the Crouch Sr. apologetics?" asks Elkins, who is sprawled on the sofa reading a 20th century trashy novel. "He wasn't Stalin, Elkins." >"Well..." > >"Honestly, now, Elkins. Honestly." > >"Honestly?" Elkins struggled for a moment with this concept, then >sighed. "No," she admitted. "I guess not. Crouch was a man of >honor. He did release Karkaroff in exchange for his information, >just like he said he would, and in spite of the fact that Aurors >like Moody would have preferred to 'throw him back to the >dementors.' And people *were* acquitted under his regime. All of >those Death Eaters got off the hook, and so did Bagman. Crouch >wasn't Stalin." "Well I'm glad that's over: >that *ridiculous* attempt to smear poor Crouch by painting him as a >Stalin figure, with the Aurors as his bluecaps," says Eileen. "Yes," says Elkins, a twisted smile playing on her lips. "May I ask who you WOULD compare Crouch to oh-fellow-lover-of-Solzhenitsyn?" "Let's not go there," says Eileen. "Why not?" "Because well.... I like Crouch Sr. He's got the redemption scene, he's got the tragic backstory, he's dead sexy..." "Liking a character," says Elkins, "has nothing to do with approving of them. How many times do I need to say that?" "Hmmm...You know what first strikes me about the whole set-up. The Death Eaters are every dictator's dream conspiracy. They're ordinary citizens who have infiltrated every branch of the government. They can strike anywhere at anyone. They remind me very much of the sort of conspiracies Stalin liked to pretend he was facing. Except for once, it's real. So, I really don't know who to compare Crouch to. That sort of thing doesn't really exist in real life. Think of all the parallels proposed on the list. The Klu Klux Klan. The IRA. Al- Quaeda. The Nazis." "Godwin's law," warns Elkins. "Warning taken," says Eileen. "The point is that none of these parallels work. There is no historical parallel for the Death Eaters. There isn't a terrorist group that operates completely in secret and yet has the capacity to destroy the government and life as we know it.... except in conspiracy theories." "So the parallel for the Dark Mark is the black helicopters?" asks Elkins curiously. "Yes. Rowling asks us to believe in a situation that is in our world impossible." "So how does this relate back to our friend Crouch?" "Well, think about it. He's facing down a situation that one doesn't face in real life. Can you blame him if he went a little overboard?" Elkins puts her hand under the sofa and pulls out a worn, well-read book. "The Two Towers!" says Eileen. "I was wondering where I put it." Elkins opens the book and begins to read. ------------------------------ " I had forgotten that," said ?omer. "It is hard to be sure of anything among so many marvels. The world is all grown strange. Elf and Dwarf in company walk in our daily fields; and folk speak with the Lady of the Wood and yet live; and the Sword comes back to war that was broken in the long ages ere the fathers of our fathers rode into the Mark! How shall a man judge what to do in such times?" "As he ever has judged," said Aragorn. "Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves, and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house." --------------------------------- "Or at the Ministry of Magic, I suppose," says Eileen sighing. "You know I'm a sucker for Tolkien references." "So now that you've faced up to Crouch's iniquity, what next?" says Elkins breezily. "Well, let's take a look at another fictional character who had to face down a power that would destroy life as we know it." A look of recognition dawns in Elkins' face. After digging around under the sofa for a bit, she hands Eileen another worn-out volume entitled "The Return of the King." --------------------------------- "Would that have availed to change your judgement?" said Denethor. "You would still have done just so, I deem. I know you well. Ever your desire is to appear lordly and generous as a king of old, gracious, gentle. That may well befit one of high race, if he sits in power and peace. But in desperate hours gentleness may be repaid with death." --------------------------------- "Couldn't you see Crouch saying that, Elkins?" "You do know that I LIKE Denethor?" says Elkins. "Of course," says Eileen, a Malfoyish smirk quivering on her face. (Elkins privately wonders if Eileen is losing her mind.) --------------------------------- "So be it,"said Faramir. "So be it!" cried Denethor. "But not with your death only, Lord Faramir: with the death also of your father, and of all your people, whom it is your part to protect now that Boromir is gone." --------------------------------- "Faramir, of course, as Denethor rightly observed, had gone over to Gandalf school of thought, a school of thought that has been continued in a certain Albus Dumbledore." "Right," says Elkins with a smile. "To quote myself, >We see it in every hair of Albus Dumbledore's beard, in every >twinkle of his eyes, in that "Ware Balrog" sign that Pip once >noticed stuck to his back. "So, then," says Eileen, "let's frame the HP world in LOTR terms. Albus Dumbledore is Gandalf. Crouch is Denethor. Voldemort is Sauron. Harry Potter is Frodo Baggins. Hermione Granger is Merry Brandybuck (who actually read the maps.) Ron Weasley is Pippin Took (who didn't.) Ginny Weasley would be Sam Gamgee. If you believe in-ever-so- evil Fudge, he could be Saruman. Draco Malfoy is Legolas." "Eileen, that is useless!" cries Elkins. "Five points from Gryffindor! This is a place for serious discussion, not amusing character analogues!" "Right," says Eileen who was about to compare Madame Rosmerta with Barliman Butterbur. "I got a little carried away there. Anyway, that's my analogue for Crouch. I can't help respecting Denethor. I can't help respecting Crouch. And Denethor didn't even get a redemption scene." "I'll have to tackle that redemption scene sooner or later," says Elkins. A look of fear appears in Eileen's eyes. "Do you really, really have to?" she asks. "Because well... Cindy and I were talking, and we realized that we have NEVER EVER won an argument with you over ANYTHING! Now, Cindy's hopeful you'll eventually slip up, but I'm not so optimistic." "Now, now," begins Elkins modestly. "Do you know what you have done to me? You have destroyed my faith in the aurors, subverted my vision of Neville, shook my belief in J.K. Rowling...." "You've enjoyed every minute of it," says Elkins brusquely. "That's true," says Eileen. "Let me confess that I like nothing better than seeing you attack Crouch Sr. It makes me feel beleaguered and under pressure." "Which is a good feeling?" asks Elkins, taking out a notepad. "Well, it's exciting anyway," says Eileen eyeing the notepad with distrust. "It gives me my one chance to be non-sycophantic. Do you want to talk about Karkaroff, btw?" "Nothing would delight me more," says Elkins. "Karkaroff, although a member of SYCOPHANTS, was very tough. He was in Azkaban a long time before he cracked." "I've noted that," says Elkins. "Cindy was quite delighted with the observation, IIRC." "How hard did Crouch try to get those names that it took about year and Karkaroff somewhat willingly relinquished them? Wouldn't a good dose of Cruciatus have done the trick? It wasn't as if Crouch hadn't that option." "More Crouch apologetics?" gasps Elkins. "Not exactly. Only questions. Do you remember that big dispute over whether Imperius would force someone to divulge information?" "Yes." "Well, I don't know how it works, but I don't think it can. What would be the use for Cruciatus if Imperius does the job cleanly?" "What about Veritaserum?" asks Elkins. "Veritaserum is the most disturbing thing in the entire HP series. We could say that it's a new invention, I suppose, but if it doesn't mess up our past speculations, it's sure to mess up our speculations about the future. No, I'm almost ready to write Veritaserum off as a FLINT, unless Rowling explains some severe limitation to its use..... Anyway, back to the use of Cruciatus. The Solzhenitsyn quote?" Elkins rummages under the sofa again and pulls out a thick black book with gold lettering: the Gulag Archipelago. "In view of the extraordinary situation prevailing....interrogators were allowed to use violence and torture on an unlimited basis, at their own discretion...'" "Which seems a good parallel for the Potterverse," says Eileen "based on Sirius's description of the times. However, it seems that the interrogators didn't use that much violence and torture at their own discretion on Karkaroff. We both agree, of course, that people don't often keep secrets under torture. And I think JKR would know that as well.... She's no George Lucas. No, Karkaroff stumps me. Unless Crouch thought he knew nothing.... Now there's a possibility." "What about the people Karkaroff indicted? Take a look at what I said: >Karkaroff gives a bunch of names, right? The *only* >useful name we see him give is Rookwood. And then, >the *very next thing we see* is Bagman's trial. Why >was he arrested? Was there any evidence *before* his >arrest, other than Rookwood's denunciation? Was there >any evidence for Rookwood's arrest, other than >Karkaroff's denunciation? Sirius says that >Karkaroff 'put a load of other people >in Azkaban in his place.' But the only genuinely >*useful* name he gives in the Pensieve is Rookwood's. >So Rookwood's arrest must have led to a whole *slew* >of other arrests, and most of those people must >*not* have been let free, as Bagman was. Was there >hard evidence for *any* of those people to be >arrested at all? Or were they just arrested on the >say-so of other convicts? Eileen nods. "Rookwood spilt the beans pretty quickly, I should think. He reminds me of one of those people who filled out sheet after sheet of their "fellow conspirators" for the KGB in the deluded hope that their co-operation would lighten their sentence. And I'm not entirely sure Rookwood was completely honest in denouncing other people. He obviously fingered Ludo Bagman as a supporter of Voldemort, and that wasn't true." "Eileen, how can you say that? The D.E.V.I.L.s will be upon us! Have you ever seen Cindy brandishing her hatchet leading the hordes?" "Well, I don't like D.E.V.I.L. (Death Eater Verily Is Ludo). It ruins the whole structure of GoF, imho. Let's just take the text at face value here, shall we? If Rowling reveals Ludo as a dark and dangerous death eater eventually, I'll have to reconsider. But if not, we're left with a case that really never should have come to trial in the first place. It's implied that it was pretty obvious (even to Throw that scum back to the Dementors!Moody) that Bagman was guilty of stupidity, not treason. Bagman's Quidditch fame got him out of that mess, but I'm sure that a lot of other innocent people ended up in Azkaban on Rookwood's accusation." Elkins nods. "Have you noticed, btw, that Ludo Bagman does not plead innocent? He admits to everything Crouch charges him with doing, except that he insists he didn't know what Rookwood was up to. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that there weren't many pleas of complete innocence." Elkins reads from the Gulag Archipelago: "People have speculated about a Tibetan potion that deprives a man of his will, and about the use of hypnosis. Such explanations must by no means be rejected: if the NKVD possessed such methods, clearly *there were no moral rules* to prevent resorting to them. Why not weaken or muddle the will?" "A very good selection," says Eileen approvingly. "What was it you said about it?" >"Why not, indeed?" Elkins cried. "But unlike the >NKVD, the WW *did* have moral rules preventing them >from using that technique. Until >*Crouch* got his hands on them, that is. Eileen nods. "How many times has someone on the list commented on the fanaticism Mrs. Lestrange shows in the Penseive scene." "About once a week." "Right, there seems to be this belief among Potter fans that Mrs. Lestrange was too stupid and fanatical to shut up and deny all charges. Well, I don't think so anymore. I think Crouch got her confession with Imperius. Remember Dumbledore said the evidence against the Pensieve four was inconclusive. What's the only way to convict with inconclusive evidence?" "A confession." "And Mrs. Lestrange, Mr. Lestrange, and Ave.. I mean the Fourth Man would seem to have confessed, don't you think? Once you see it this way, Mrs. Lestrange's defiance of Crouch isn't stupid. He's already forced her to sign her life away, so she might as well give him the chilling fanaticism speech." "Crouch Jr. pleaded innocent, though," says Elkins. "Yes. That makes perfect sense to me. He was the son of the Head of Magical Law Enforcement, wasn't he? Barty Jr. may have thought that was no advantage, but I'm sure everyone was a lot more careful with him. No Cruciatus. No Imperius. Just convicted formally on the Lestranges' say-so, and actually on whatever it was that Frank Longbottom and his wife were raving about..... Well, that about wraps it up. I have only have one more question for the moment." "Yes?" "How did Lucius Malfoy get off?" Eileen -------------------------------------------------- For an explanation of the acronyms and theories in this post, visit Hypothetic Alley at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin20Files/hypothe ticalley.htm and Inish Alley at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database? ethod=reportRows&tbl=13 From anakinbester at hotmail.com Sat Sep 28 20:06:54 2002 From: anakinbester at hotmail.com (anakinbester) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 20:06:54 -0000 Subject: Common Rooms Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44637 Felinia Wrote > I get the impression, from the fact that Harry and Ron can't just > ask someone in advance, that people from the other houses aren't >*supposed* to know the location of common rooms not their own. I've gotten that impression too. To me that seems extremely odd that such knowledge would be so restricted, yet it does seem to be what canon indicates. Unles Harry and Ron were extremely dense, but I dont think so. Why do you think this is? My first thought is to keep house rivalries from getting out of hand, but that seems almost silly. *L* Then again maybe MWPP caused such grief for the Slytherins that it was deemed necessary to keep their common room hidden *L* (Yeah there's completely non canon based reasoning. Serious again, I really can't come up with a reason for keeping the houses hidden. It seems to breed sectionalism and discrimination, which you'd think Hogwrats would be against, given Dumbeldore's stance on issues. -Ani From eloiseherisson at aol.com Sat Sep 28 21:57:10 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 17:57:10 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "Are the Shades of Goderic's Hollow to be thus pollut... Message-ID: <197.dfe03ce.2ac77fb6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44638 In a message dated 28/09/2002 02:56:53 GMT Standard Time, i_am_erasmas at yahoo.ca writes: > (Erasmas): > There is a huge difference between seeing others as different and > seeing yourself as superior. Eloise: Yes, there is and I don't think Pippin is suggesting that the Weasleys *consciously* see themselves as superior (they're quite enlightened in many ways), but don't all of us have attitudes and opinions on things which lurk below the surface and are not necessarily consciously voiced or even acknowledged? I'm sure that I do. This, after all, is surely where some of the acrimony generated by political correctness comes from, isn't it? The outrage of those who feel that they are just, non-discriminatory folks who don't realise that some of their attitudes may be streotypical or hurtful to others. It is an unfortunate human tendency to compare ourselves with others and mental health demands that we see ourselves at least equal to others, if we are not to develop some kind of inferiority complex. Comparisons very quickly lend themselves to the elevating of one person's norms (normally ours) over another's. For instance, I was recently in the US and you can't help, for example noticing things that are different about driving in the US, as compared with in the UK. Differences are one thing, but if I started saying things like, "Isn't it amazing how those Americans manage with their steering wheels on the wrong side of the car? How on earth do they manage without roundabouts (*much* more common in the UK)? Aren't those four-way crossings just ludicrous?", I'd have strayed over the border from noticing differences to being patronising and assuming that the norms of my country were superior, when in fact a lot of it is just unfamiliarity. I have no idea how you're supposed to cope with a four way crossing (and neither did my husband, which made for some interesting moments), but that is my cultural ingnorance. The fact that in the UK, priority would be clearly shown by a combination of road signs, markings and probably traffic lights is neither here nor there. Yet the Weasleys, for all their good nature, Arthur's interest and the whole family's acceptance of Harry and Hermione *do* seem to display an unconscious acceptance that wizarding ways are the norm and Muggle ways a rather interesting, perhaps cute deviation. Erasmas: where you get the idea that > > Molly is finding the muggles to be a nuisance. To me it's just an > observation. The key part of that scene is that Harry recognises that > there is a witch nearby. He may not have found and followed them > unless someone was talking. They're in a busy section of muggle > london, so it seems natural that one of them is commenting on how > many muggles are around. Eloise: Well, yes. You would think that she'd *expect* lots of Muggles on a major Muggle station, wouldn't you? But Muggles *are* a nuisance, aren't they? They do, after all have to access Platform 9 3/4 without attracting attention. Although they seem to live in a Muggle village, it does seem as if they are not used to being amongst Muggles. Erasmas: > Pippin: > > As for Mr. Weasley, at his first sight of the Grangers, he says, > > "But you're *Muggles*" as if it never occured to him that > > Ron might have a Muggle-born friend, and then he actually grabs > > Molly's hand and points at them. > > Me (Erasmas): > The tone I had in my head as I read this was Arthur being delighted > to run into some muggles that he could talk freely with. Eloise: I'm sure he was. But I feel it might have been a one-way process. Arthur wants to know about Muggles. Does he want to tell the Graingers about the WW? We don't really know, but Arthur's attitude suggests to me that he was more interested in finding out than in mutual cultural exchange. Erasmas; > Pippin: > >It also never occurs to him that > > the Grangers might want to do something with their limited time > > in the wizarding world besides have a drink with him (and > > answer all his questions about Muggle life.) > > Me (Erasmas): > Ummmm ... I have no idea where this comes from. Why shouldn't he > invite them for a drink? If everyone acted as you seem to be > suggesting, nobody would ever make any friends. The full quote > is: '"But you're Muggles!" said Mr. Weasley delightedly. "We must > have a drink!"' To me that sounds like a welcoming invitation. Eloise: It is. But for whose benefit? Isn't it rather patronising to invite someone for a drink just because they're a Muggle? Translate for a minute.: 'But you're black! We must have a drink!' Does that sound the same? Would we be comfortable with that? Hermione's parents are people first, Muggles second. If I'd been Hermione's mother, I would have much rather Arthur had taken me for a tour of Diagon Alley, explaining all the things that seemed weird and wonderful to me. He seems to recognise Muggles as different without acknowledging that *he* is different from their (far more common) perspective. Erasmas: (Pippin:) > > It sounds condescending to me that he says, "Bless them" > > whenever he talks about Muggle shortsightedness. He doesn't > > talk that way about the House Elves, for example. And his > > Muggle Protection Act is no doubt well-intended, but we don't > > usually talk about protecting those we consider equals. > > > Me (Erasmas) > Equality isn't the issue here. Arthur is fascinated by muggles and > concerned for their welfare. > > Eloise: Many people are fascinated by animals and concerned for their welfare. It doesn't follow that they regard them as equals. Erasmas: <>> > Pippin: > > I don't think Arthur and Molly do any of this consciously, but I > also > > don't think they're quite as accepting of Muggles as they think > > they are. > > I think the big difference here is the tone of voice that we hear in > our heads as we're reading the same story. If the voices in your head > are speaking condescendingly, then your take on the characters is > that they are condescending. > Eloise: I cannot speak for Pippin, but speaking for myself, the big difference is in recognising that good, well-meaning people are still capable of falling into stereotypical views of others and of not questioning whether their own world-view is the only valid one. They do not have to use a condescending tone of voice. I know good, well-meaning people who fall into the same trap (as I'm sure I do myself, from time to time). It doesn't do any of us any harm from time to time to take a broader perspective and question how representative our own view of the universe really is. I don't think we have seen the Weasleys do this. Eloise PS...regarding Percy/Penelope....would you put up with a bloke with such a fixation on cauldron bottoms? Or who couldn't utter a sentence that didn't contain the words, 'Mr Crouch...'? No! Penelope (who must have been a patient soul to begin with) is better off out of it! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jodel at aol.com Sat Sep 28 22:15:38 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 18:15:38 EDT Subject: Lucius vs. Arthur Message-ID: <9c.26dc8ec1.2ac7840a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44639 Catlady writes: >>Yes, except I don't believe that Lucius is old enough to have been in school with Arthur. My own personal timeline has Lucius born in 1950, Sevvie/MWPP/Lily born in Sept 57 to Aug 58 year (Lexicon has 1960), and Arthur and Molly (whom I believe to have been in the same year at Hogwarts) old enough that Molly remembers Ogg, the gamekeeper before Hagrid, which *to me* means the gamekeeper more than 50 years ago. They don't LOOK seventy ... neither does McGonagall! To me, Tom Riddle and Minerva McGonagall and Hagrid and Arthur and Molly had overlapping times as students at Hogwarts. << Whereas, I, can easily see both Malfoy and Weasley having been born during the late Grindlewald era. Say for simplicity, around 1940-45. (red letter year, that...) As I say, I do see Lucius as being a good deal older than Narcissia, and Arthur as having started his family early. Until we get some clearer statement on the age of the two oldest Weasley brothers it will be difficult to set any solid anchor points in the timeline, however. As to the Weasleys, I am finding it more and more curious that we haven't met any Weasleys *other* than Arthur's and molly's own children. If Draco's hand-down slurs about having more children than one can afford is not a pointed slur specifically aimed at Arthur himself, where ARE they? You would think that they would at least be mentioned in passing, but no, the only Weasley relatives that I can recall ever having been mentioned, ironically, is the squib 2nd cousin (on Molly's side) that "no one talks about". Did they all immigrate to Australia? I am begnning to wonder whether Arthur might be much the same kind of "sole survivor" that Harry is. -JOdel From jodel at aol.com Sat Sep 28 22:15:40 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 18:15:40 EDT Subject: The Houses Mystery Message-ID: <50.125f21c5.2ac7840c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44640 Much of the conundrum over how one can claim that all the known Dark wizards have come from Slytherin (Really? Not even any from Durmstrang? Say what you *mean*, Hagrid...) and still account for the likes of Peter Pettigrew comes unraveled when one remembers that to SUPPORT a Dark wizard does not make *you* a Dark wizard. If Voldy took over Hogsmeade and everyone there had to do his bidding, does that mean that Hogsmeade would be a town of Dark wizards? We do not have a really clear deffinition from canon as to what actually constitutes a Dark wizard. We do not even have a clear statement that the unforgivable curses are Dark magic. Only that they are illegal and that Dark wizards will not scruple to use them against their foes. Everything has been implied to this date, but a direct statement has yet to be made. And where does one cross the line? Use one Dark spell and that's it? ("One foot, one lousey foot and you're a cannibal for life!") Or must one have some actual background of formal study in the Dark Arts to qualify? ("Any clown can doodle, but it takes work and talent to be a Dark *artist*...") For example, let's take the case of Peter Pettigrew. We have seen Pettigrew use one (count them, one) unforgivable curse onstage. And that only after he had been serving as Voldemort's general factotem for a year. He didn't need the Dark Arts to pass the DEs information on Dumbledore's forces' actions. He didn't need the Dark Arts to spy on the Weasleys in the form of a rat. We don't even know for sure that he even had the Dark Mark until after he joined Voldemort in Albania and helped him into a rudimentary physical body. Is Pettigrew a Dark wizard? Well, he is *now* (he's had to be). Whether he was thirteen years ago (as opposed to a wizard who supported a Dark Lord) is less certain. The thing I'd like to know is; what did HAGRID mean when he was sounding off about Dark Wizards? And, I agree with Cris, in that what I suspect is that Hagrid was talking about Dark *Lords*. And there you've got a much better case for saying that the only ones you've ever heard of were ex-Slytherins. Anybody from any house may find some reason to take up the Dark Arts which makes it seem worthwhile to them. But it is by far the most likely to have been the ex-Slytherin who chooses the Dark Arts as the road to making himself the Lord over all others. And does it really take much of a stretch to believe that Hagrid meant "Dark Lord" when he said "Dark wizard"? -JOdel (afternote; Pettigrew *does* have a wand, other than Voldemort's. He stole Lupin's at the end of PoA.) From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Sat Sep 28 22:37:43 2002 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene Mikhlin) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 23:37:43 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "Are the Shades of Goderic's Hollow to be thus pollut... References: <197.dfe03ce.2ac77fb6@aol.com> Message-ID: <00c901c2673f$a9eedf40$e9c97ad5@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 44641 > Eloise: > > PS...regarding Percy/Penelope....would you put up with a bloke with such a > fixation on cauldron bottoms? Or who couldn't utter a sentence that didn't > contain the words, 'Mr Crouch...'? No! Penelope (who must have been a patient > soul to begin with) is better off out of it! I don't remember in which book the twins learned that Percy has a girlfriend. But I do seem to remember that they were very excited about the possibilities. Maybe Penelope just got tired of exploding classrooms, forged letters and other charming friendly jokes? ;-) Bringing it back to Arthur, it is perfectly possible that for all his fascination with muggles he would be terrified if his child decided to marry one. I'm not saying it's necessarily the case, just that it's possible and has parallels in real world. Irene From catlady at wicca.net Sat Sep 28 23:12:09 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 23:12:09 -0000 Subject: children'sbooks/onlyfamily/dead!Moony/loyal?Jr/S.Bones/Sectionalism/DarkSlyth Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44642 Judy Penumbra wrote: << But in our analyses of these books, which we all find so fascinating, we must keep in mind that they were originally intended for children >> I'm surprised that no one has yet risen to give the traditional rant about these books were *not* originally intended for children, they were (according to JKR's own statements to the press) originally intended to please herself, and she never even thought they would be published for anyone else to read. Barb Psychic Serpent wrote: << I fail to see how "the only family he has left" is open to interpretation. When it comes to LOONiness, those words are extraordinarily clear. This statement leaves absolutely no leeway; there is no way that Harry has relatives anywhere else, given Dumbledore's statement, assuming that he is a) telling the truth; and b) fully informed of Harry's family situation." I keep feeling that there may be an important difference between the words "family" and "relatives". My feeling of the way that Ancient Magic works is that it cares about blood kinship, so that if either Petunia or Lily had been adopted by the Evanses while the other was their birth daughter, the Ancient Magic wouldn't treat Petunia as Harry's relative. However, if the adoption were a binding magical contract, Petunia would still be Harry's *family*. And if Severus was Lily's birth brother (which I don't believe) but one of them was adopted out, if the adoption were a binding magical contract, then Severus and Harry would NOT be family. (Same for, if Petunia and Narcsissa were birth sisters but Petunia was adopted out, Narcissa and Draco are not Harry's family.) And Sirius, as godfather, wasn't Harry's relative, but was family, but wasn't 'left' as he was on his way to Azkaban. I imagine that ways to be not-left include not only being dead, being in Azkaban, being hopelessly insane in St. Mungo's, but also being a loyal follower of the Dark Lord. Moonstruck wrote: << as I reread PoA, I can't help but notice several clues (which go along with others I'd all ready culled) pointing to the immanent death of Remus Lupin, whom I desperately adore. It's common knowledge that there will be more, higher-profile deaths in the remaining three books of the series. JKR has commented that Lupin will be back in OoP and I've heard (whether it's been confirmed or not, I'm unsure) he'll play a large roll in Book 7, so if he does die, I don't think it will be until the end of the series -- a small consolation. >> I *hate* the idea of Moony (whom I also adore) dying without ever had any happiness in life. So unfair! I want Padfoot and Moony to survive and live together happily ever after. But JKR is writing a real (or realistic) history, so I expect they will be killed. To be even more depressing, someone suggested that Lupin could be killed in book five and still play a large role in book seven, as a ghost or even in a Pensieve'd memory. IIRC, JKR promised that we would learn more about why some people become ghosts and others don't. However, I don't believe there is any evidence that silver is harmful to werewolves in the Potterverse. FB is sadly lacking in information on werewolves (not even listing the visible differences between the werewolf and the true wolf!) so it neither says that werewolves can be killed only by silver nor that silver's harmful effects on werewolves are another Muggle misunderstanding. Daniel wrote: << and he renounced him in court. Screamed that he wasn't involved yet is his most loyal servant. >> This is a forbidden "I agree" post. Barty Junior's denial in court is a contradiction to his alleged flawless loyalty. However, we don't know that Junior didn't tell Voldemort about Harry being able to resist Imperius -- Voldemort may have thought "He can resist an ordinary person's Imperius, but surely he can't resist *mine*, the most powerful Imperius of all." Abi jabig wrote: << I was wondering if those Bones were of any relation to Susan Bones. >> Someone asked JKR and she said those Bones were Susan Bones's grandparents. The Goat Pad http://www.geocities.com/aberforths_goat/ is where we search for JKR quotes. This time it gave me http://www.yahooligans.com/content/chat/jkrowlingchat.html "matiaskanfunfa asks: There is a girl named Susan Bones who was sorted in the first book and there was a family called the Bones that Voldemort tried to destroy, is this a coincidence or will Harry meet her in future books? jkrowling_bn: Susan Bones' grandparents were killed by Voldemort!" (Btw, this transcript also contains "Yahooligan_Ana asks: Hello, I would like to know if you ever read any Harry Potter fanfiction on the web. jkrowling_bn: I have read some and I've been very flattered to see how absorbed people are in the world") The reason "Susan Bones" was so prominent in the celluloid-thing-that -must-not-be-named is that the actress was the director's daughter (so much for my impression that her Red Hair was a Clue!), but it can be argued that maybe he cast her as Susan Bones rather than as Hannah Abbot or Sally-Ann Perkes because of Susan Bones being an important character in future plot developments that JKR may have confided in him.... Ani bester wrote: << I really can't come up with a reason for keeping the houses hidden. It seems to breed sectionalism and discrimination, which you'd think Hogwarts would be against, given Dumbeldore's stance on issues. >> Dumbledore probably isn't free to change all the old Hogwarts traditions, no matter how much he may disapprove of them, and keeping the Houses hidden is probably a VERY old tradition: I expect it started with the Founders. A couple months ago, there was some discussion on-list of how Hogwarts in particular and wizard culture in general is set up in a way that encourages Dark Wizards to try to take over. I don't know what word to search for to find that thread, but here is one long excellent essay in it: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/38398 JOdel wrote: << Much of the conundrum over how one can claim that all the known Dark wizards have come from Slytherin (Really? Not even any from Durmstrang? Say what you *mean*, Hagrid...) and still account for the likes of Peter Pettigrew comes unraveled when one remembers that to SUPPORT a Dark wizard does not make *you* a Dark wizard. >> The quote I find in SORCEROR'S STONE (yes, US edition) is: "Better Hufflepuff than Slytherin," said Hagrid darkly. "There's not a single witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't in Slytherin. You-Know-Who was one." I think one cannot deny that Pettigrew went bad ... If Sirius had been guilty of betraying the Potters to Voldemort (as Hagrid believed he had, at the time he made that statement), one could not have denied that Sirius had gone bad. Hagrid was just exagerating; why do people take his words as gospel? CHAMBER OF SECRETS (yes, US edition again): "For a few horrible seconds he had feared that the hat was going to put him in Slytherin, the house that had turned out more Dark witches and wizards than any other." Even tho' the authorial voice is telling us HARRY'S thoughts, it specifies "more .. than any other", not "all the ... ever". From catlady at wicca.net Sat Sep 28 23:13:36 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 23:13:36 -0000 Subject: non-TBAY Reply: TBAY - Despiadado Denethor, Imperius, and Cruciatus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44643 Eileen Lucky Kari wrote: << Of course, Sirius Black never lies or exaggerates. So it must be true. >> G'rrr. << Godwin's Law >> I had to look it up on Ask Jeeves! << There is no historical parallel for the Death Eaters. There isn't a terrorist group that operates completely in secret and yet has the capacity to destroy the government and life as we know it.... except in conspiracy theories." >> Does it help to think of the Death Eaters as BEING the government? Like right-wing paramilitary death squads of RL 1980s? The situation gives me a feel for the ordinary person's caught-in-the-middle-ness, altho' in RL they were between the paramilitaries and the guerrillas, not between the military governmment's secret police and the hypothetical equally deadly agents of the few honest judges left. << I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that there weren't many pleas of complete innocence. (snip) How did Lucius Malfoy get off? >> We've gotten the impression that there were many Death Eaters who walked free, not just Lucius. We find it not at all implausible that there are more innocent people in Azkaban than just Sirius. If *only* guilty people and sports stars got off, this suggests that wizarding justice was not merely INCOMPETENT, but explicitly CORRUPT: it gives the impression that very probably the Department of Magical Law Enforcement employee responsible for Imperius'ing false confessions from the accused was him/her/self a Death Eater who walked free and made the effort to save those of hiser Death Eating colleagues whom heesh recognized. Yuck. I mean, at that point, how do we know that Barty Sr wasn't Imperius'ed into authorizing use of the Forbidden Curses? Wasn't Imperius'ed into staging that show trial against his son? Wasn't Imperius'ed every minute of his life from the early days of the Voldemort Reign of Terror? << Draco Malfoy is Legolas. >> Only fanon!Draco. From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Sat Sep 28 21:59:59 2002 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 21:59:59 -0000 Subject: Barty Crouch Jnr - More To It Then Meets The Eye In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44644 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "purple_801999" wrote: > > Another thing to ponder is if Crouch Jr. had the Dark Mark on his > arm. Wouldn't that prove his involvement with the Death Eaters and > confirm his guilt? > > Olivia Grey No, because the Dark Mark disappeared. It came back on Snape's and Karakoff's arm during Goblet of fire, this was one reason why Snape and Dumbledore suspected, that Voldemort is indeed getting stronger. evenflow200214 wrote: > Why did he put Harry through the Imperius Curse five times and didn't > tell Voldemort about it? I always assumed that he wanted to play Moody's part as best as possible. But you are right, it seems a little bit strange, that Voldemort didn't know that Harry is able to fight the curse. The fake Moody could have sent him an owl, like he did after he killed his father. But maybe Crouch jr. didn't think that Voldemort wanted to put the curse on Harry? Hickengruendler From anakinbester at hotmail.com Sat Sep 28 22:15:56 2002 From: anakinbester at hotmail.com (anakinbester) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 22:15:56 -0000 Subject: Letting Crouch sr. go? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44645 Something that I've wondered about since re-reading GoF: Do any of y'all think that Peter might have either intentionally let Crouch get away, or, at least, was only watching him half heartedly, hoping that he would get away? It seems at least plausible to me for several reasons: 1) This is the most personal, but I've never bought into the "Wormtail is stupid and incompetent" fanon characterization that I see so often. He has nearly no spine in GoF true, but he doesn't seem dumb, or particularly negligent. The only person that accuses him of being such is Voldemort, but I'm not inclined to take that as any kind of definitive assessment to Peter's abilities. So guarding Crouch doesn't seem like it should be beyond Peter's ability. 2) It would be a pretty good way to thwart Voldemort's plan. If Crouch had reached Dumbeldore, Voldemort, most likely, would have been stopped. At the very least, Barty Jr. would have been revealed. 3) He can be fairly certain Voldemort won't kill him. Peter, to me at least, seems most afraid of dying. I'm sure he doesn't _like_ being tortured, but he seems truly terrified of being killed. Well, at that point in time, Voldemort, despite his threats, cannot afford to kill Peter. Consider, if Voldemort killed Peter, while still in his old body, who looks after him? Barty can't. He's at Hogwarts, and no other DE knows about Voldemort. So Peter could be relatively sure(as sure as you can be with a crazy psychopath) that Voldemort wouldn't kill him for letting Crouch get away, at that point in time. Anyway, those are my thoughts. -Ani From anakinbester at hotmail.com Sat Sep 28 22:39:50 2002 From: anakinbester at hotmail.com (anakinbester) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 22:39:50 -0000 Subject: Is Lupin Doomed? In-Reply-To: <20020928070717.20750.qmail@web20804.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44646 Moonstruck wrote: > Anyway, here's why I think Lupin is a marked man: > > * The obvious clue is the Remus/Romulus myth. As interesting as that is, I've never really seen that as a legitimate basis for his death. I'm sure the name comes from the fact that both twins were raised by a she-wolf, but I just can't see anything beyond that. Perhaps it's the fact that it is such an obvious connection. Anyway, I just have never taken that to be proof of Lupin's impending doom. Unless he does have a Death Eater twin named Romulus lurking about. Then I'll worry *L* > * Another thing that worries me is Peter Pettigrew's > brand new silver hand. That I'll give you; In fact that's the number one reason I think Remus could be in trouble. A lot of people argue that the color may be silver, but the hand is not actually silver; however, I don't see why JKR would choose that particular color if there weren't some fall out to the fact that its silver. She could just as easily written in a flesh colored hand, or a bronze hand, or a steel (grayish) hand. But, it was silver; in fact, a big deal was made of it being silver, as far as my reading of the description went. > What I consider more plausible, however, is that > Lupin's premature graying signifies a premature death. I'm going to disagree again. that's stretches the realm of symbolism for me. Partially because my dad was completely gray by 38, so it's not this completely unusual idea that he might be getting some gray hairs at his age. (Which I'm assuming is early to mid thirties) I think, as you said, that it reflects his wisdom, but also the hard life he's had to lead. Stress can cause graying too. > > * When we're introduced to Lupin in PoA, he certainly > seems half dead. Again I think that's reading too much into it. I think that was to give his character a sense of vulnerability, and to foreshadow his lycanthrope, not his impending doom. > " 'He looks like one good hex would finish him off, > doesn't he?' " That I'll give. That does seem to be a foreshadowing line. Especially if you think he and Peter are going to meet up and fight. > Indeed, in light of the fact that that there is no > cure for Lupin's lycanthrope (and I highly doubt JKR's > going to come up with some miracle potion at the > eleventh hour)he may even be willing to sacrifice his > life for Harry and his friends. As a plot device, it > might serve to "put him out of his misery." Gosh that's a scary possibility I hadn't considered before. I hope that doesn't happen. it almost seems like giving up, and one of the things I like about Lupin is he tries to keep on living despite his condition. I hope he doesn't die like that! >He > seemingly has no family and very few loyal supporters I've never been sure about his family. Just because he's poor doesn't mean he doesn't have a family. Maybe his family was never very rich either, so they're not in a position to loan him loads of money. Then again, it's entirely possible his whole family his dead. It would make sense, given the climate that he grew up in, and what commonly happened to people who opposed Voldemort (I'm on a limb assuming his whole family opposed Voldemort, but I'd like to think so) You did have some good points, and I actually do agree with you that Lupin may have his days numbered, however, my reason rests primarily on Peter's hand. In fact, I'll be surprised it isn't used against Remus, and I think the real question is whether or not Peter is far gone enough to personally and directly kill one of his old friends. -Ani From viper3082002 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 28 21:34:42 2002 From: viper3082002 at yahoo.com (Bill Hack) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 21:34:42 -0000 Subject: Water and broom travel Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44647 Does wide open water act as an insulator, and ban the use of brooms? Example, first transatlantic flight by broom in 1933. Since even muggles did it in hops in 1919, and non-stop in 1927, is there a reason? Do the Weasleys go to Egypt or Romania via Floo-powder or train? It just strikes me that the reason there aren't any Yanks at Hogwarts is simply the difficulty of trans-oceanic wizard travel. Viper3082002 From jmmears at comcast.net Sun Sep 29 02:36:50 2002 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 02:36:50 -0000 Subject: The Bones In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44648 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "jabig33" wrote: > Hi everyone! This is my first time posting, so please be nice to me. Hi Abi, welcome to posting. Aren't we *always* nice ? > I was rereading SS this morning and something caught my attention. I > have searched the archives and couldn't find anything, but if this > question has already been answered, I apologize. > > In Chapter Four, The Keeper of Keys, Hagrid told Harry the names of > some of the great wizards that Voldemort had killed. Hagrid says > "No one ever lived after he decided to kill 'em, no one except you, > an' he killed some o' the best witches an' wizards of the age- the > McKinnons, the Bones, the Prewetts..." > > I was wondering if those Bones were of any relation to Susan Bones. > I know its a minor thing, but I am curious as to how many children > Voldemort had left orphans. Sorry if this has already been > discussed. Don't apologise, this is a very good question and the answer is yes, the Bones Hagrid refers to are Susan Bones grandparents. This info comes from an online Barnes & Nobles chat with JKR in 2000. The transcript of this chat and many other interviews and chats can be found at www.aberforthsgoat.net. Do check it out. It's a truly wonderful resource and very easy to navigate and you'll be amazed at how much you can learn by reading these transcripts and articles. Jo Serenadust From siriuskase at earthlink.net Sun Sep 29 04:20:31 2002 From: siriuskase at earthlink.net (siriuskase) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 04:20:31 -0000 Subject: The Secret Life of Arthur Weasley? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44649 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Veronica" wrote: > Risti wrote > > Also, I've always thought that Mr. Weasley seems to know an awful > >lot for the Ministry position he has. I mean, think about all the > >stuff Ron knows 'because dad is in the ministry.' > > From me: > I think Mr. W's personality has a lot to do with this. He is a > friendly, likeable guy, and because he is such a good, kind person, > he had lots of friends in the Ministery, in several different > departments. > > I think there is a lot of favor swapping in the MoM. After all, Mr. W > helped Bagman's brother, and in return, Bagman got him great tickets. > And Mr. W is the kind of guy that wants to help his friends and other > good people (like Moody). > > When you have good connections in lots of departments, you will learn > a *lot* of stuff that you might never hear otherwise. (I've seen lots > of evidence of that in the corporate world, anyway.) > > Now, I am not ruling out that he might have played a very important > role in the fight against Voldemort. In fact, I will be surprise to > hear that he didn't, but I really think the items mentioned > specifically in the first post are more a result of his friendly, > outgoing personality than any secrets from his past. One more thing about Arthur, he seems to be the guy who is called on to help the wizards weasel out of awkward situations with the muggles. When Moody had his encounter with the police, Arthur was the one who was called in. I don't think that this was an unusual task for him. So there are probably quite a few wizards indebted to him for this sort of help. Sirius Kase From oppen at mycns.net Sun Sep 29 05:51:00 2002 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 00:51:00 -0500 Subject: On Trial Message-ID: <012e01c2677c$317d5c20$9d560043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 44650 I can't find anything in the "trial scene" of Barty Crouch where he explicitly _says_ "I am not a Death Eater," or "I do not serve Lord Voldemort." All he does is scream for mercy, appeal to his parents unsuccessfully, and say that he didn't do the particular crime he's been charged with---the torture of the Longbottoms. _At no time_ does he explicitly deny serving Lord Voldemort. He doesn't join in with "Mrs. Lestrange's" cool defiance of the court---a defiance for which I cannot but admire her poise and courage---but he's only nineteen and this is his first time through the mill, while "Mrs. Lestrange" (if that is who we saw in that scene, _we don't know_) is mentioned as having "talked her way out of Azkaban" and can be said to know just what fate awaits her. Personally, were I Lord Voldemort, I'd value live free associates that could work my wicked will far more than I would excruciatingly loyal ones that would allow themselves to be sent to Azkaban rather than get out of it by pretending to renounce me, if that was all it took to keep them free and on my side. But then, I am not an insane Dark Wizard/multiple murderer with a yen for immortality and Absolute Power, no matter _what_ my online friends say. In fact...now that I think about it---how do we _know for sure_ that Augustus Rookwood, the guy denounced by Karakoff to get out of Azkaban, was actually guilty of anything? The atmosphere of the Wizard World during the later Voldemort years reminds me of (ironically enough) a witch-hunt, where often all it takes is an accusation for conviction. Karakoff doesn't strike me as the sort of person who would scruple at accusing an innocent person if it got his sorry behind out of Azkaban, and he might, for all we know, have had personal reasons to dislike Rookwood and want to get back at him. From i_am_erasmas at yahoo.ca Sun Sep 29 07:08:31 2002 From: i_am_erasmas at yahoo.ca (i_am_erasmas) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 07:08:31 -0000 Subject: On Trial In-Reply-To: <012e01c2677c$317d5c20$9d560043@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44651 Eric Oppen > In fact...now that I think about it---how do we _know for sure_ that Augustus Rookwood, the guy denounced by Karakoff to get out of Azkaban, was actually guilty of anything? The atmosphere of the Wizard World during the later Voldemort years reminds me of (ironically enough) a witch-hunt, where often all it takes is an accusation for conviction. Karakoff doesn't strike me as the sort of person who would scruple at accusing an innocent person if it got his sorry behind out of Azkaban, and he might, for all we know, have had personal reasons to dislike Rookwood and want to get back at him. Actually I think there is indirect evidence of Rockwood's guild at least. In Bagman's trial he is accused of passing information to deatheaters from Rockwood. Bagman may have been a stooge, but it appears that there was a followup investigation and that the investigators found that damaging information originating with Rockwood was being passed to deatheaters. I agree that the trials are lacking in a standard of justice. I would imagine, though, that it's really difficult to prove anything for sure in a magical world, and that the jurists must base their decisions mostly on intuition. The defendants are given an opportunity to speak, but without defense council, it's likely very hard to gather evidence to prove their innocence. I think that in cases where the defendent has something unexpected to say, further investigation may be called for to see if the claims can be verified. Erasmas From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Sun Sep 29 07:22:23 2002 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 07:22:23 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Bones Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44652 >In Chapter Four, The Keeper of Keys, Hagrid told Harry the names of >some of the great wizards that Voldemort had killed. Hagrid says >"No one ever lived after he decided to kill 'em, no one except you, >an' he killed some o' the best witches an' wizards of the age- the >McKinnons, the Bones, the Prewetts..." > >I was wondering if those Bones were of any relation to Susan Bones. >I know its a minor thing, but I am curious as to how many children >Voldemort had left orphans. Sorry if this has already been >discussed. > >Abi > I'm fairly certain they're related. The wizarding world does seem to be smaller overall than that of the muggles, population wise, and generally last names seem to have that sort of "they're kin" importance. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Sep 29 07:22:39 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 07:22:39 -0000 Subject: Dursley's being Harry's only Living Relatives In-Reply-To: <20020928132925.36057.qmail@web13003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44653 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Barb P wrote: > > Steve wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Barb P wrote: > > > > freya122000 wrote: > > IMHO, and if I am wrong please correct be post haste, but I see no > proof that the Dursley's are Harry's only living relatives. > Dumbledore stated in PS/SS that they were simply the best place for > Harry at this time, he never says "only living relatives", that is > > only in the movie. > > BARB: > > > > I'm afraid that you are mistaken. On page 15 of Philosopher's > Stone, Dumbledore says, "I've come to bring Harry to his aunt and > uncle. They're the only family he has left now." > > > > I hope that helps. > > > > --Barb > > > > bboy_mn: > I have to agree with Barb, but at the same time I have to fudge a bit. > > Harry could have some distant cousin in Sardinia or Timbuktu or where ever. > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Barb continues: > I fail to see how "the only family he has left" is open to interpretation. When it comes to LOONiness, those words are extraordinarily clear. This statement leaves absolutely no leeway; there is no way that Harry has relatives anywhere else, ...heavy snip... -end Bard- bboy_mn replies: I think we are arguing techincalities here (or at least I am). I agree that for all practical and functional purposes the Dursleys are Harry's only family. But from a more techincal aspect, the odds that there are no other people on the face of the earth with a drop of Potter blood in them is very unlikely. I still agree with your basic statement, for all practical purposes there is no other family. But I'm more of a technical type of guy. Part of the point I wanted to make is that even if there are these distance people with only a single drop of Potter blood. No one would ever consider them family for purposes of adoption or orphan placement. Once the branches of the family tree become too distant, they essentually become meaningless. As long as we are on the subject, I guess we gave to assume that Petunia's parents are dead. While they aren't Potters, they are Harry's grandparents and would certainly be considered family. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Sep 29 07:51:06 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 07:51:06 -0000 Subject: Common Rooms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44654 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "anakinbester" wrote: > Felinia Wrote > > I get the impression, from the fact that Harry and Ron can't just > > ask someone in advance, that people from the other houses aren't > >*supposed* to know the location of common rooms not their own. > anakinbester said: > > I've gotten that impression too. To me that seems extremely odd > that such knowledge would be so restricted, yet it does seem to be > what canon indicates. ...snip... > > Why do you think this is? My first thought is to keep house > rivalries from getting out of hand, but that seems almost silly. > ...snip... > > -Ani bboy_mn replies: I don't think it's some much that the location are a closely guarded secret as it is that the house system keeps houses very isolated from each other. When he really wants to know, Harry doesn't have any trouble finding out where the Slytherin and Hufflepuff common rooms are. This whole house system, which I'm lead to believe is very common in England and possibly other parts of Europe, seems very strange. I creates intense rivalries, even rivalries and prejudices that last a lifetime. How many people hate Slytherins? And how many people let that hated carry over into the adult live? They hire a lesser qualified job candidate because the best qualified is a Slytherin. Interhouse rivalries break out into fights a duels in the hallways. Yet how many Slytherins are just plain kids going to school and minding their own business? Sure they laugh at Draco's antics, but they have been corrupted by the house rivalries and loyalties. It doesn't seem like a very orderly way to run a school. I seriously doubt that a system like that could exist in the US. Possibly in a few exclusive private schools that model themselves after European schools. bboy_mn From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Sun Sep 29 08:01:06 2002 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 08:01:06 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Common Rooms Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44655 >Felinia Wrote > > I get the impression, from the fact that Harry and Ron can't just > > ask someone in advance, that people from the other houses aren't > >*supposed* to know the location of common rooms not their own. > > >I've gotten that impression too. To me that seems extremely odd >that such knowledge would be so restricted, yet it does seem to be >what canon indicates. Unles Harry and Ron were extremely dense, but I >dont think so. > >Why do you think this is? My first thought is to keep house >rivalries from getting out of hand, but that seems almost silly. > It *does* seem very odd, doesn't it? But then I sort of measure my reading in HP against other books in the subgenre of "boarding school books", and in this case, there probably isn't much of a parallel - the common rooms in the Marlow books are all known and easily found, just that members of other forms aren't supposed to go into them without permission. I think you're right about it being a bit silly to prevent house rivalries from getting out of hand, but it *is* possible. nowhere do we find prefects or teachers impressing on first-years the importance of not divulging the location of their dormitories and common rooms; but there's the whole password thing, and the fact that Harry and Ron don't know where Slytherin's common room is and have to rely on following others. Hang on - they *do* ask Penelope, but only in their guises of Crabbe and Goyle. it's just very weird - I'm leaning more towards the idea that it's a don't ask, don't tell situation unless you're someone like a prefect with some semblance of responsibility. And it is probably for a jumble of reasons, of which preventing interhouse rivalry getting out of hand is one - I imagine the others are to discourage random interhouse visiting,e specially in the middle of the night, and to prevent any harmless pranks or vandalism. Because where do harmless pranks stop and interhouse rivalry/vandalism begin? I suspect the teachers prefer it this way because it's one less headache for them to have to deal with. > *L* Then again maybe MWPP caused such grief for the Slytherins that > it was deemed necessary to keep their common room hidden *L* (Yeah > there's completely non canon based reasoning. > :-) Could be. > Serious again, I really can't come up with a reason for keeping the > houses hidden. It seems to breed sectionalism and discrimination, > which you'd think Hogwrats would be against, given Dumbeldore's > stance on issues. > > -Ani > It certainly does seem to encourage "each house to itself", but there could be a side to that of enforcing "your house is your family" and making it so that the inmates thereof *have* to learn to get along, rather than being able to run off. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Sep 29 08:25:03 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 08:25:03 -0000 Subject: Water and broom travel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44656 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Bill Hack" wrote: Viper3082002: > Does wide open water act as an insulator, and ban the use of brooms? > Example, first transatlantic flight by broom in 1933. Since even > muggles did it in hops in 1919, and non-stop in 1927, is there a > reason? Do the Weasleys go to Egypt or Romania via Floo-powder or > train? > > It just strikes me that the reason there aren't any Yanks at > Hogwarts is simply the difficulty of trans-oceanic wizard travel. > > Viper3082002 bboy_mn replies: Flying the Atlantic by the best New York to London route is freezing cold even in the best weather. Plus, I seriously doubt that the standard broom is capable of flying at 400 to 500 miles per hour, and at that speed the windchill is bitter cold. And, not too many places to stop and take a pee, and get a hamburger along the way. Flying the Atlantic in a modern jet airplane is a miserable tedious boring uncomfortable experience, it has to be a living hell on a broom, even if the broom does have an enchanted cushion on it. So, I agree trans-oceanic wizard travel is difficult. That brings up some other questions. Does the Floo network reach all the way to the US, China, and Australia? Do protkey have a limited range? Are there travel networks that use portkey that you can use to travel just like the muggles use trains? Portkey networks that have stations with cafes, and bathroom, and other aids to weary travelers? If there isn't, would you like to start one with me; we could get very rich? (this is actually my best guess for long distance wizard travel, a portkey network that functions just like the train system) We know that there is a limit to how far the average wizard can apparate, but I wonder what that distance is? I got the impression, although it isn't clearly stated, in the Philosopher's Stone when Dumbledore was called away by an owl from the Ministry, that he flew a broom to London. I would think a great wizard like Dumbledore could apparate a long way. But apparently the 600 to 700 kilometers from North Scotland to London was beyond his capacity. So why didn't he just apparate in 2 or 3 short hops, that still has to be better and fasted than a broom? Next question; could you cross the Atantic like this? Apparation hopping from small island to small island to Iceland to Greenland to Canada. Ron said his parents could apparate from London to home (we assume home is in Devon) which is a about 200 to 250 kilometers (100K = about 60 miles). So that is obviously within normal range. What does this all add up too? Don't know, just some thoughts I had. bboy_mn From kristin at jesusphreaks.org Sun Sep 29 02:41:58 2002 From: kristin at jesusphreaks.org (Risti) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 02:41:58 -0000 Subject: Common Rooms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44657 > Felinia Wrote > > I get the impression, from the fact that Harry and Ron can't just > > ask someone in advance, that people from the other houses aren't > >*supposed* to know the location of common rooms not their own. I got this impression as well. and then Ani wrote various points: > I've gotten that impression too. To me that seems extremely odd > that such knowledge would be so restricted, yet it does seem to be > what canon indicates. Unles Harry and Ron were extremely dense, but I > dont think so. No, I don't think that that's the reason. > Why do you think this is? My first thought is to keep house > rivalries from getting out of hand, but that seems almost silly. Getting close to my opinion, actually, but not quite. It has less to do with rivalries and more to do with family pride. > *L* Then again maybe MWPP caused such grief for the Slytherins that > it was deemed necessary to keep their common room hidden *L* (Yeah > there's completely non canon based reasoning. non canon based, but very highly amusing :) > Serious again, I really can't come up with a reason for keeping the > houses hidden. It seems to breed sectionalism and discrimination, > which you'd think Hogwrats would be against, given Dumbeldore's > stance on issues. I don't think it has anything to do with discrimination or sectionalism, but something completely different. I always got the impression that Houses were like co ed fraternities or sororities. There were certain secrets you just kept to yourself. The password, the seperate common rooms, it's about creating a home away from home. After all, McGonnalgal did say, "your house will be something like your family within Hogwarts." We may not always love our family, but at least we can go home to them and know that they are going to be the same. I'd imagine it would be quite comforting after a bad day to go into your common room, or dorm room, and know that half the school wasn't going to come down on your head while you were there. As for their secret location, when you consider how much they'd want to keep the *inside* of their common rooms a secret, it makes sense that they'd want to keep the location secret. Why? Because otherwise all you do is walk up to the entrance, stand behind statue of armour for awhile until you hear some poor unsuspecting other- houser(ok, I know that's not a word, but bear with me) come along and say the password for all to hear. Then, when you get grumpy because said house has just won the Quidditch Cup, and you want to crash their party with Dung Bombs, you just walk right up to the respective Portrait on the wall, say your words, and walk in. It's not over-zealous house rivalry, its just teens and preteens needing a place where they can hide out and a secret that they can know they share with a bunch of like minded people. And a way to keep the Weasley twins from short sheeting your bed after you trounced their beating ability. ~Risti From psychomaverick at hotmail.com Sun Sep 29 03:47:37 2002 From: psychomaverick at hotmail.com (psychodudeneo) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 03:47:37 -0000 Subject: Color Symbolism and animagi In-Reply-To: <3D913AE9.655B702A@bigpond.net.au> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44658 Leanne Daharja Veitch wrote: > However, when it comes to animals there *are* a few interesting points to note. I'm particularly interested in Crookshanks. I noted that Dumbledore's auburn hair (in his youth) was referred to for the first time directly before the appearance of Crookshanks (towards the end of CS p183, and early in PA (p49), respectively). Dumbledore's crooked nose is mentioned quite > regularly throughout the books. Crookshanks is both ginger and 'crooked' (and definately male) - merely coincidence? It's also interesting to note that Animagi seem generally to be of larger size than ordinary animals of their type. Scabbers is referred to repeatedly as 'large and fat', Black is an 'enormous' black dog, Rita Skeeter is a 'large, fat beetle' and Crookshanks > is 'either a very big cat or quite a small tiger'. > > Crookshanks also appears in Diagon Alley immediately Harry goes to live in the Leaky Cauldron in PA. Crookshanks appears at the door of Harry's dormitory when Black is on the prowl, almost as if he is guarding him. Then (and I am sure I have failed to point out several other instances of note), there is Black's (?) comment that Crookshanks is "the most intelligent of his > kind I've ever met" (PA, p267). Finally, it would make sense that Dumbledore, as the greatest Wizard of his time, would also be an animagus (especially if such less able Wizards as Pettigrew can be animagi). I'm suggesting (if this hasn't already been suggested), that Dumbledore may well be Crookshanks. It is also interesting to note that Harry only moved to the Weasley's > in GF *after* Crookshanks had been installed there (it is mentioned that both Hermione and Crookshanks are already at the Weasley's when Harry arrives). A protection measure? Possibly. > > Daharja XXX I can't possibly see how this would work out. It has been done before, an Animagus posing as someone's pet (and may assume that it will be done again, with Harry and Sirius) however, Peter's place in the world and Dumbledore are very different. Peter was presumed dead, he had no responsibilities or a life to live, so he was free to pose as Scabbers all the time. Dumbledore, on the other hand, seems to be a very busy wizard in general. I would imagine that people would start to notice that he was missing for long periods of time. I could imagine more important things for Dumbledore to be doing than letting Hermione stroke his fur while she studies. Another flaw is that, if Dumbledore is Crookshanks, then presumably he knew all about Peter at the very beginning of PoA. Or at least had a feeling that something was quite right with Scabbers. I don't see why he wouldn't take any steps to try to contain/expose Scabbers for what he really is. Especially when he had just about the entire year to figure out a way. Also, if Dumbledore was going to disguise himself as an animal for the purposes of protecting Harry, it's a poor choice that he ended up getting adopted by Hermione. The only time when Crookshanks would be around Harry, is at Hogwarts itself. Something that seems redundant when Dumbledore already seems to be doing all he can to protect Harry at Hogwarts already. Not to mention he'd have to regularly nick away during the summer to visit his "owner" regularly. All in all, it's wasting too much time for a disguise that often distracts you from what you're trying to protect. It's a nice theory, it just doesn't hold water in the end. From psychomaverick at hotmail.com Sun Sep 29 06:30:41 2002 From: psychomaverick at hotmail.com (psychodudeneo) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 06:30:41 -0000 Subject: The Profs and Which Houses They were In at Hogwarts+ Sorting +Patel/Patil Mystery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44659 That would seem to be a valid argument. However, there are some good cases that could be made against it. Neville Longbottom. He doesn't seem to share any of Gryffindor's traits. He avoids conflict, he sweet, and he's not particularly brave. If your theory were true, and the Sorting Hat decided what House a student should go into is based entirely on his or her current personality and emotions . . . well, Neville wouldn't be in Gryffindor, I'm sure. Rather, I think the Sorting Hat not only reads the way a person is right at the time, but it may try to analyze the person's basic potential. Heck, it may even be able to due some rudimentary divining. We're never really explained quite WHAT the Sorting Hat is. Is it a totally independed entity? Does it draw on the spirits of the founders of Hogwarts? We don't really know quite what goes on during a Sorting. We know what the Hat says to Harry, but we don't really know how it's getting it's information. It's assumed that it just reads minds, but it seems to do more than that. Besides, I'm inclined to trust any item enchanted by 4 of history's greatest Wizards and Witches. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "ronin_economist" wrote: > Every time the question of which houses the adults were in comes up, > I think of this objeciton, and now I think I'll finally post it. > > The characters in question are adults, in some cases quite old > ones. But the Sorting Hat sorts children, little 11-year-olds, in > fact. Doesn't anyone thing that people's personalities and > tendencies ever change as they grow older? Their values certainly > do (e.g. younger people tend to be more politically liberal, then > get more conservative as they age,) and there is evidense that the > Sorting Hat bases its choices on values held as much as personality. > > Had I gone to Hogwarts at age 11, I would have certainly been sorted > into Gryffindor -- I was a brave little thing, inspired by adventure > books. But now at twice that age, I am more ambitious and identify > more with Slytherins, just to give an example. > > So I do not think it's a good idea to try determining the Houses of > the adults based on their adult behavior -- only their behavior as > children is acceptable evidence. > > Peter Pettigrew is certainly not very Gryffindor-ish as an adult: > he's a traitor and abject coward, who prefers to run rather than > fight. But it's possible that he WAS brave as a schoolboy, and > indeed we have canon evidence, such as his learning to become an > Animagus and hanging out with a potentially dangerous werewolf > during full moons. > > Hope my bit of whining makes sense -- this is my first post, though > I've been reading for a few weeks. :) > > Reene From potter76 at libero.it Sun Sep 29 09:33:07 2002 From: potter76 at libero.it (Rita) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 11:33:07 +0200 (ora legale Europa occ.) Subject: wormtail's supposed bravery and Crouch jr and the Imperius Curse was:Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Houses Mystery) Message-ID: <3D96C8D3.000001.43379@i3a2c5> No: HPFGUIDX 44660 Daniel on Wormtail: >He is mocked for his supposed cowardice yet he has done many brave things, albeit for >evil. A lesser man would not have had the nerve to face Sirius after >betraying the Potters, they would have gone underground. But Peter >allowed Sirius a chance to fight and Sirius lost. Sorry to contradict you, but facing Sirius was only part of the plan to go underground letting everyone believe he had died. He didn't allow Sirius anything, Sirius was the only one to know that he was the real Secret Keeper so he was sure that only Sirius would have come after him when what happened to the Potters had become known; he also knew that everyone else thought Sirius the Secret Keeper so that he (Sirius) would be blamed; staging his murder by Sirius would leave everyone further convinced that Sirius was the culprit. It's true that the only account of what happened in that occasion is given by Sirius, so you can certainly call it a biased version of the facts, anyway in PoA ch. 19 Sirius says that Peter didn't even attempt to fight " he yelled for the whole street to hear that I'd betrayed lily and James. Then, beforeI could curse him,he blew apart the street with the wand behind his back, killed everyone within 20 feet of himself- and sped down the sewer wit the other rats". >He also allowed >himself excruciating pain to get Voldemort back to power, the way he >cut his arm off shows a brave man I don't see any bravery in this either. It seems to me he's simply overruled by Voldemort who commands fear even in his hapless baby form. What you said in your other post about Crouch jr is very interesting. I didn't recall that Harry had already tried and sort of overcome the Imperius Curse with the help of the fake Moody. Why giving to someone you know is going to fight in a battle you are supposed to wish he will lose a useful trick that might help him win? Crouch could not know if Vold meant to use that curse against Harry, but as we're told that the Unforgivable Curses were tipical of Vold and his followers he must have known that the least Harry knew about them the better! Dumbl. might have asked Moody to show them to the 4th-years and so he couldn't have refused. But why, in the first place? I assume that there might be Dumb behind this choice because Moody in his first lesson says: "I'm not supposed to show you what illegal Dark curses look like until you're in the 6th year. You're not supposed to be old enough to deal with it til then. Bur Professor dumbledore's got a higher opinion of your nerves, he reckons you can cope". did D know that Harry might have needed to know such curses, maybe in relation to the fact that he had be entered into the Tournament? One last thought about the Imperius Curse, it doesn't seem to be that big deal if in one book we are shown 3 characters fighting it ( Crouch sr, Crouch jr and harry)! R. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From daniel.brent at cwctv.net Sun Sep 29 09:57:32 2002 From: daniel.brent at cwctv.net (evenflow200214) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 09:57:32 -0000 Subject: Barty Crouch Jnr - More To It Then Meets The Eye In-Reply-To: <572824149.20020928114356@mindspring.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44661 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook wrote: > > Saturday, September 28, 2002, 5:04:50 AM, evenflow200214 wrote: > > e> Why did he put Harry through the Imperius Curse five times and didn't > e> tell Voldemort about it? Voldemort obviously didn't know or he > e> wouldn't of tried it at the cemetary. Its like he was teaching Harry > e> to beat Voldemort... and he renounced him in court. Screamed that he > e> wasn't involved yet is his most loyal servant. > > e> Something does not add up... > > I'm glad I'm not the only one... I've always wondered why he's about > to kill Harry in Moody's office when he *knows* V wants to do it to > prove his supremacy (or if you accept MAGIC DISHWASHER, at least send > Harry back with false info for Dumbledore). I think either that Crouch > by that time was so ga-ga he was no use even as an effective DE, or... > That he was playing a double-game all along, meaning to emerge as the > *new* "biggest bully in the playground"... > > -- > Dave What is interesting about Crouch is that he had a strange sanity about him. He was a teenager when he was locked away for a crime on which it was debatable (I think) whether he committed it. He had no social contact for at least twelve years, what with being locked away in Azkaban and under his father's curse, no experience of a social surroundingm yet he has lands in the middle of Hogwarts, with all the students (some probably Fred & George like) the teachers with all their quirks. It would be so easy not to be on the same wavelength and not know how to react. But Crouch managed to pull the part of Moody perfectly. He is an unbelievable actor. Also, he was a brilliant teacher. Harry compared him to Lupin. Whatever his intentions were, he made the students fill good about themselves, he taught everyone some valuable lessons and to be able to do that after twelve years without social context, is amazing. If he was a poor teacher, it could maybe understood but he wasn't. He was a fantastic teacher which is what is confusing about his character From Littlered32773 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 29 12:53:09 2002 From: Littlered32773 at yahoo.com (oz_widgeon) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 12:53:09 -0000 Subject: Moaning Myrtle's house Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44662 I don't know if this has been discussed here before or not (it's so busy, it's hard to keep up), but does anyone have any ideas on what house Moaning Myrtle was in and why? I'd love to hear about them! Slon From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Sun Sep 29 14:00:46 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb P) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 07:00:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Common Rooms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020929140046.25576.qmail@web13005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44663 bboy_mn wrote: I don't think it's some much that the location are a closely guarded secret as it is that the house system keeps houses very isolated from each other. When he really wants to know, Harry doesn't have any trouble finding out where the Slytherin and Hufflepuff common rooms are. Me: I don't agree. They had to Polyjuice themselves into Crabbe and Goyle and get Draco Malfoy to lead them to the Slytherin common room. That's quite a lot of trouble. They were wandering around the dungeons rather aimlessly before Malfoy came along. This part of the plan they evidently hadn't thought out very well. They could have spent their entire hour wandering around the dungeons and transformed back into themselves before ever finding it--and even then, they could have waited quite a while before someone came along who knew the password. As for the Hufflepuff common room, they don't ever find out where that is, they just see the general direction in which the Hufflepuffs were walking. They still don't have the slightest idea where the entrance is, just as they only had a vague idea that the entrance to the Slytherin common room was somewhere in the dungeons. That's not exactly narrowing it down. Consider this, however: After the Fat Lady is attacked by Sirius and temporarily replaced by Sir Cadogan, I have a hard time believing that EVERY student in the school doesn't know where the entrance to the Gryffindor common room is. Gossip about the incident must have included the reason for the attack. I wonder if JKR will forget this in future books or remember that everyone who was in school when Harry was in third year very likely knows how to find Gryffindor House, regardless of what house they are in, and older students could also pass this information down to younger students. This would now make Gryffindor the least secure house in the school, since, as noted by someone else, a person would merely have to lurk nearby and overhear the password in order to breach security. I have a sneaking suspicion, however, that JKR will continue to behave, in future books, as though other students do not know the significance of the Fat Lady's portrait. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sun Sep 29 14:55:30 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 14:55:30 -0000 Subject: On Trial In-Reply-To: <012e01c2677c$317d5c20$9d560043@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44665 Eric Oppen wrote: >>>I can't find anything in the "trial scene" of Barty Crouch where he explicitly _says_ "I am not a Death Eater," or "I do not serve Lord Voldemort." All he does is scream for mercy, appeal to his parents unsuccessfully, and say that he didn't do the particular crime he's been charged with---the torture of the Longbottoms. _At no time_ does he explicitly deny serving Lord Voldemort.<<< I add: Acutally, I can not find a single time in the books where Barty Jr. out and out lies. He may not always tell the whole truth as he does under the veritaserum, but if anything, Barty Jr. actually does tell the truth. In the side room after the Goblet of Fire draws out the four names, Barty/Crouch actually spells out what he did. He carefully chooses his words to conceal yet also reveal the truth. So then in the trial, can we then assume that Barty Jr. is telling the truth to his parents? We have not evidence either way. Because he is a deadeater and is so driven, we do assume he is lying in the courtroom to save his own skin, but that is not necessarily true. Based on our first-hand knowledge of Barty Jr. as a teenager, as Crouch, and as under vertiserum, he seems to prefer a sort of etiquette and honor to his demented, twisted views. "Petty" vices as lying, cowardice, and apathy are thought by him to be weaknesses. So maybe he is telling the truth in the courtroom and was not guilty of that crime. The question still is then, does he still deserve to go to Azkaban because we know he was a deadeater, and a brilliant, dedicated one at that? It is justice in our eyes, since the whole reason we lock people away in the first place to protect us from them and them from themselves. There is not reform program in Azkaban. Seems the WW believes once a bad guy always a bad guy. Melody From Calypso8604 at aol.com Sun Sep 29 12:54:43 2002 From: Calypso8604 at aol.com (Calypso8604 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 08:54:43 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Neville's Bravery (WAS The Profs and Which Houses...) Message-ID: <183.f400468.2ac85213@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44666 In a message dated 9/29/2002 7:23:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, psychomaverick at hotmail.com writes: > Neville Longbottom. > > He doesn't seem to share any of Gryffindor's traits. He avoids > conflict, he sweet, and he's not particularly brave. > > If your theory were true, and the Sorting Hat decided what House a > student should go into is based entirely on his or her current > personality and emotions . . . well, Neville wouldn't be in > Gryffindor, I'm sure. > That's not entirely true. Neville has in fact shown more of his own brand of bravery than many of the others in the house (and let's face it, hardly anyone besides the Trio gets a chance to show bravery). In SS/PS, I believe, Neville took on both Crabbe and Goyle at the Quidditch game when Ron started fighting with Draco. Also in SS/PS Neville stood up to the Trio when they started to sneak out of the common room. Before Hogwarts he had to deal with all of his Uncle Algie's little 'tests' to see if he was magic (getting pushed off a pier, hanging out the window, etc.). He's lived with the knowledge of what his parents went through to get in their current state for 14/15 years-- even Harry thought that having one's parents alive and practically vegetables was worse than dead parents. I think poor Neville gets underestimated-- he may not be as *blantantly* brave as Harry, Ron, and Hermione but he is brave all the same. Calypso [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 29 16:16:56 2002 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 09:16:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Common Rooms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020929161656.12697.qmail@web10908.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44667 --- Steve wrote: > I seriously doubt that a system like that could exist in the US. > Possibly in a few exclusive private schools that model themselves > after European schools. Oh really? It's not quite the same, but look at the insanely intense rivalries that exist between different universities and even high schools. I'm a Texan whose brother went to A&M, father went to Baylor, and many cousins went to UT. All three of those schools have very intense rivalries, just like the ones between the Hogwarts Houses. There are some very nasty "pranks" played between students of the various schools, a football rivalry like you wouldn't believe, and every Aggie will swear that any T-sip is is worst enemy. But when A&M had a tragedy a few years ago with their Bonfire collapse, UT students were some of their strongest supporters in a time of need. This is how I see the Houses working. Granted, this is at two different schools, not divisions between one school, but when you just have ONE major school in the area, you divide yourself up for friendly rivalries. (My own college did that, since we were very small and not terribly atheletically inclined. We were the "Odds" and "Evens", according to graduation year, and the rivalry could get intense!) It's important to have a point of pride, which the Houses give their students. And I think it's also important to have some sort of friendly rivalry going in order to bond the House into a cohesive whole. Do you think Gryffindor would be so tightly-knit if they didn't have Slytherin to cheer against? And since their whole system of punishment is mostly centered around points being given or taken away (with detentions seemingly rarer, for the bigger crimes), it's important to have a rivalry going. Would a Gryffindor care so much about losing 5 points if that didn't put Slytherin a little closer to winning the House Cup? :) Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Sun Sep 29 17:06:15 2002 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 10:06:15 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: On Trial In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <14476749788.20020929100615@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44668 Sunday, September 29, 2002, 12:08:31 AM, i_am_erasmas wrote: i> I agree that the trials are lacking in a standard of justice. I would i> imagine, though, that it's really difficult to prove anything for i> sure in a magical world, and that the jurists must base their i> decisions mostly on intuition. One word: "Veritaserum". Yet they they almost never use it, and depend on, as you say, "intuition" -- "You only have to look at Sirius Black to tell that he's a murderer." Quod Erat Demonstradum. i> I agree that the trials are lacking in a standard of justice. I would i> imagine, though, that it's really difficult to prove anything for i> sure in a magical world, and that the jurists must base their i> decisions mostly on intuition. The defendants are given an i> opportunity to speak, but without defense council, it's likely very i> hard to gather evidence to prove their innocence. I think that in i> cases where the defendent has something unexpected to say, further i> investigation may be called for to see if the claims can be verified. Whereas we vile Muggles have Magna Carta, the Bill of Rights, and "innocent until proven guilty". Frankly, I think that if I ever got a letter from Hogwarts I'd tear it up, 'cause the Magical world is not all it's cracked up to be. -- Dave From penumbra10 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 29 16:10:38 2002 From: penumbra10 at yahoo.com (Judy M. Ellis) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 16:10:38 -0000 Subject: SHIP: H/H, H/R or other? In-Reply-To: <20020926025126.97551.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44669 Jessica wrote: >It is with heavy heart and a great deal of forced >objectivity that I have assert my belief that JKR >intends for Ron and Hermione to end up together >*The most obvious proof for this pairing is the >emotional tension between Hermione and Ron throughout >GoF. Chapter 22 ???The Unexpected Task??? >clearly indicates the couplings JKR believes are >viable. *Remember* before GoF came out, JKR said that >H/R/Hr would end up with the wrong people. Apply that >thought to ???The Unexpected Task.??? When the four >players ??" Harry, Ron, Hermione, and Ginny ??" start out >together??? Judy responds: What a wonderfully meaty post! I just love the logical way you think, even when I don???t exactly agree. I too am cheering for a H/H relationship and have a few observations I've tried to make as objectively as I can, which might keep hope alive for you. I know you are one to appreciate the need sometimes of a long, thoughtful post so here goes: (Maybe you should get a cup of coffee.) I wanted to respond right away, but you brought up so many thoughtful questions that I had to go back and do a lot of rereading. I found the quote JKR made before Gof came out. It was taken from a chat transcript on Wed, Sept 18, 1999: "I'm having so much fun writing Book 4 because for the first time Harry, Ron, and Hermoine are starting to recognize boys and girls as boys and girls. Everyone is IN LOVE with the wrong people." (emphasis mine) http://www.geocities.com/aberforths_goat/September_1999_Barnes_Noble. htm Being "in love" with the wrong people is a long way from "being with the wrong partners," don't you agree? Now, please consider the following about Ginny Weasley: I may be wrong, or missed important bits, but I could find no canon evidence that Ginny Weasley has in any way become a "major player" in GoF or any other books. The Trio has never taken her into their confidence and, by GoF, she is, for all intents and purposes, still an outsider. On more than one occasion, she is shut out of one of the Trio's secret discussions. We see her first in SS/PS eager to just catch a glimpse of Harry. In CoS, she is even more smitten with him. (JKR makes it abundantly clear with the whole Gilderoy Lockhart substory that Harry abhors that kind of blind adoration.) Add to this the fact that in Chap. 17 he so gallantly rescues her from Tom Riddle and his basilisk in the Chamber. (The classic valiant fairy tale knight slaying the dragon and rescuing the fair maiden) and he thus becomes a living embodiment of her fantasy hero-- One-dimensional and not a real person at all. I think this is emphasized by their conversation afterward. She appears more emotionally fragile than ever, crying that she might be expelled, and Harry is more like a protector trying to comfort her. There was not a hint of anything between them or the knowledge of a shared experience. Even after she has recovered from the ordeal, she doesn't ever seem to ponder the considerable emotional and physical trauma he went through to rescue her. Ginny does not know Harry in any way other than the most superficial. By GoF, she???s still giggling when he smiles at her (Chap. 5) This is nearly a mirror of the relationship Harry has with Cho. He only knows "she is pretty, is a good Quidditch player and is very popular." (Chap. 22 GoF) They have never sat down and had a conversation. All Harry knows is that his stomach does flip flops when she is around. Just as Ginny doesn't know if she'd even LIKE the real Harry -- Harry doesn't know if he'd LIKE the real Cho. Of course, all this could change, according to a recent interview with JKR, Ginny will play a larger role in the upcoming OoP. This was taken from an interview on "Oregon Live": http://www.oregonlive.com/books/index.ssf?/books/00/10/al_11browl22.f rame Jessica also wrote: >*I know I???m not the only person who???s noticed the >similarities between Mr. and Mrs. Weasley???s >relationship and Ron and Hermione???s... Judy responds: Mrs. Weasley yells at anyone and everyone she is upset with. I have an Irish friend who swears that strong, dominant women are an Irish staple. Perhaps Mrs. Weasley is a caricature of the loving but dominant Irish mother. Mr. and Mrs. Weasley's relationship, however, despite the many rows, is a loving one based on mutual respect and understanding. With Mr. and Mrs. Weasley, there is a "we" concept "we were worried," "We thought it best..." Consider that Mrs. Weasley never insults her husband about his inability to provide a comfortable lifestyle for the family. It???s always, "we???ll manage." Chap. 4 CoS She is also protective of him. Chap. 4 CoS In GoF Ch.10, p.146 (American paperback) there is a tender exchange after the World Cup Quidditch match that effectively shows the foundations of the relationship between Mr. and Mrs. Weasley, when she runs to embrace him as he and the children are returning. With Hermione and Ron, apart from the Trio, there is no "we" concept- -they just argue. Harry and Hermione, however, have been slowly developing one which I will discuss later. Jessica continued: >...*Finally, it???s my belief that Ron *needs* Hermione in >order to reach his full potential as an individual. >Though they argue quite a bit, Hermione helps to keep >Ron grounded when he gets out of hand. If Ron has any >chance for survival in these books, it???s Hermione. >Consider the exchange in GoF after the Second Task of >the Tournament, when Ron???s penchant for exaggeration >and ego-stroking is exaserbated by the attention he >gains as an underwater hostage: ???Harry noticed that Ron???s >version of events changed >subtly with every retelling???. > ???What were you going to do, snore at them???? said >Hermione waspishly???. Ron???s ears went red, and thereafter, > he reverted to the bewitched sleep version of events.??? (509-10) >Hermione???s pointed criticism, bursts his absurd >balloon and help Ron realize how asinine he???s being. >In this sense, Hermione exerts a great deal of >influence over Ron. It???s my belief that a relationship >with Hermione will redeem Ron and save him from his >own demons. Judy responds: In this case it did bring him to his senses, but consider one of JKR???s underlying unarticulated philosophies about learning and personal development: She seems to believe that self-discovery, wherein students test the limits of their own abilities and make their own choices, is the way we learn best. If we follow the reasoning that the Weasleys are the model and justify that Ron needs Hermione to nag him into becoming the best that he can be, there should be canon examples to show that Mrs. Weasley???s fits of anger are somehow beneficial. Has Arthur Weasley's fascination with muggle artifacts been curbed by his wife???s arguments? Not a chance. Did the twins see the error of their ways after their mother blasted them out, and stop their efforts to establish their joke shop? Not a snowflake's chance in Hell. Did Ron, after he received the howler, behave like an angel for the rest of the term and endeavor to keep "all his toes in line?" Don't think so. Do any of the teachers at Hogwarts nag their students into becoming the best that they can be? Not a one-- although it may be argued that Snape tries to insult his students into better performance. Ron finds his best self in critical situations when he has no choice but to perform. Everything he needs to succeed seems to be within him already. He???s a brilliant strategist, he's witty, and brave and these qualities come out from time to time when they are needed. Ron is just lazy (typical boy) and has not yet discovered his own worth. He is too busy focusing on his limitations -- especially monetary ones -- to know the power he commands. Observations in Favor of an H/H Relationship: You stated that Hermione, in PS/SS (Chap. 6 p.110 US paperback), comes into Ron and Harry???s train car and points out that Ron has dirt on his nose just as his mother did on the platform. IMHO this establishes Hermione as a mother, a nagging mother, rather than a potential partner. (This is very typical behavior among bright little girls, believe me. I can???t tell you how many female students I???ve had who just HAD to mother everyone.) Of course, Hermione is growing up and the mothering is less and less pronounced as she ages, but there are subtle differences in the WAY she mothers. When she talks to Neville--attempts to help him--she is gentle and reassuring, when she talks to Ron, she nearly always snippy and critical except when she is trying to comfort him about being poor. (This is something he has no control over.) Now, regard how she and Harry interact and consider, too, how much of a history of shared experiences they are developing. The difference between R/H and H/H experiences is so subtle, it's almost not noticeable at first because most of the time they are a Trio, but it is much clearer and stronger by GoF. H/H's relationship is based on mutual respect. (All references are from American paperback editions of the novels) --In SS Ch. 10, p. 172, It's Harry who is concerned about Hermione in the girl's room with the troll loose in the school. By saving her, they all have the shared experience that officially forms the Trio. --In SS Ch. 13, p. 224, Hermione is so intent upon watching Harry during a Quidditch match--making certain he is OK, she doesn't even notice that Ron and Malfoy are rolling about on the floor of the stands fighting. --In SS Ch. 16, p. 287, Ron is injured, Hermione has just solved Snape's potions puzzle. Harry is about to go face what lies beyond the fire. Hermione throws her arms around him (to his boyish embarrassment) and tells him he is a great wizard. As far as we can tell from the book, Harry hadn't demonstrated any particular greatness except in his flying, but Hermione is, even at this age, very perceptive of his latent abilities. He counters with "not as good as you." This exchange, I believe, is the first evidence that they share a true mutual respect for each other. --In CoS, there is a growing bond between the three friends, obviously, but notice in Ch. 18 p.339, that Hermione runs towards Harry shouting "you solved it, you solved it!" as soon as she is revived. Harry thinks it's one of the best things that happened that night. There were a lot of ways JKR could have written Hermione's revival. --In PoA, Although Harry sides with Ron in the Scabbers/Crookshanks kafuffle, he is also sympathetic towards Hermione. By Ch. 21, Ron is injured, and Harry and Hermione must carry out a plan using a time-turner, to rescue Buckbeak and Black. Notice their brief discussion/argument on Pp.398-399. They really listen to each other and Harry at first acquiesces to Hermione's greater understanding of time-turners, because he trusts her judgement. Later, when the Hermione on the other side of the lake is overwhelmed by the Dementors, and Harry's instincts tell him to ignore what Hermione had just told him and he summons the powerful patronus to save them both, he becomes Hermione's mythical "champion." It's a classic scene from Tales of King Arthur that comes next, with a JKR twist, of course. The hero and heroine both ride off on the noble steed (Buckbeak). The difference here from Harry???s rescue of Ginny is that the hero and heroine are three-dimensional individuals who have made comparable contributions to their mutual success (Harry never could have saved them without Hermione) and this becomes a shared experience. Now, in GoF Hermione and Harry's relationship becomes the most spouse/partner-like to date and I believe JKR is perhaps, foreshadowing a future relationship. --GoF Ch. 8, p.103-104 You are aware of this scene, I believe. Harry and Ron, both entranced by the dancing Veela are up on the edge of the box ready to jump. Their seats are next to each other, but Hermione reaches up and pulls only Harry back down into his seat. "Honestly," she says. (Sounds rather spouse-like to me) --GoF Ch.10, p.150 They have all just returned from the World Cup and Harry is anxious about hearing back from Sirius. Ron suggests playing Quidditch and trying out the Wronski Feint. "Ron," said Hermione, in an I-don???t-think-you???re-being-very- sensitive sort of voice, "Harry doesn't want to play Quidditch right now...He's worried, and he's tired...we all need to go to bed..." "Yeah, I want to play Quidditch," Harry said suddenly. If this is not a take on the classic ???wife trying to speak for her husband??? scenario, I don???t know what is. I don't know if you're married, but whenever wives do that, they are invariably wrong. It's a cute bit of humor. --GoF Ch. 14, p. 210 (Hermione) "Been in the--" "Library" Harry finished her sentence for her. Of course, since Hermione is nearly always in the library when she goes missing, it was not much of a stretch for him to guess that. But here we have Harry finishing her sentences for her. (Spouse/partner-like, I think) --GoF Ch. 14, p. 224 Hermione begins S.P.E.W. (I'm guessing you???re American because you quote from the American paperbacks, so I thought I'd let you know that spew in Britain means vomit) Harry behaves as any proper husband/male companion knows he should if the female is bent on something he finds ridiculous--Harry feigns interest, keeps his mouth shut and looks for the first legitimate diversion. His is Hedwig???s return. Ron, being slower on the uptake about females, has too much to say--all of it wrong. --GoF Ch. 18, Hermione is the only one of Harry's friends who believes he is innocent of putting his name in the Goblet. Moreover, she knows he doesn't want to face people at breakfast and brings him toast. (She seems to understand him as even his best buddy, Ron, does not.) Hermione moreover works toward getting them back together, because she knows Harry is miserable without Ron. (This is an allusion, I believe, to the idea of the 'faithful, supportive spouse.') --GoF Ch. 20, Pp.345-347 Hermione is up with Harry until 2 A.M. helping him learn the summoning charm. Then gives him words of confidence on p. 348 which he seems to repeat to assure himself that he will indeed be fine. GoF Ch. 23, p. 414 At the Yule Ball, Harry recognizes the glamorous Hermione right away, but Ron walks right past her. --GoF Ch.26, p.481 This may or may not be a bit of wicked JKR foreshadowing humor. You find this kind of device in Shakespeare all the time. Harry, Ron and Hermione are in Charms Class practicing the Banishing Charm. Ron's cushions are going every where. Hermione's are all going right into a box set up as a target. "I just want to know what Snape did with his first chance if this is his second one," said Harry grimly, and his cushion, to his very great surprise, flew straight across the room and landed neatly on top of Hermione's. I believe this may be a subtle sexual metaphor, perhaps not to mean literally that the characters will become carnal, of course, but perhaps a reference to something in the future about raging adolescent hormones and Harry's surprise that he has those kinds of feelings for Hermione. Had JKR meant ONLY that Harry got the charm right, I think she would have stated it in quite a different way, and why would he be surprised he had managed it? He'd done much more complicated magic when he was younger. Have you any thoughts on this? I do read a lot of Shakespeare and his works are full of sexual metaphors. Perhaps I'm over reaching, but JKR did mention once that she put a few things into her books that she wondered how they got past the censors. --GoF Ch. 27, p. 511 (Story) After the Rita Skeeter story entitled "Harry Potter???s Secret Heartache," Harry, on at least two occasions denies that Hermione???s his girlfriend. I think JKR might be engaging in verbal irony (the author saying one thing but meaning another) Harry denies it to Krum Ch. 28, p. 552, and to Mrs. Weasley, Ch. 31, p.619. After all Harry had gone through during the school year, and with all they had gone through together, it seemed very natural for Hermione to kiss Harry at the end of GoF. And, I also found this in one of JKR???s interviews: (Note: This is not a direct JKR quote, but it is quoted directly from the article) *Harry has already been interested in a "quidditch" team-mate in Harry Potter And The Goblet Of Fire, the fourth book in the series - but will now develop more of an interest in Hermione, one of his best friends.* Interview taken from BBC News, Friday, 28 December, 2001. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts/1726528.stm NOTE: This was not the only interview that made this statement. I'm trying to keep my mind open since the interviewers might have added that bit without JKR's approval, but it seems to me she is slowly laying the groundwork for an eventual H/H relationship that appears as logical as Voldemort's return to power. All of us, I think, are so besotted with Hollywood, that we often forget that real love is based on more than just the sparks of physical attraction-- mutual respect and tolerance for the other???s differences and a knowledge of total acceptance by the other, for instance. Real love often does not come in with a blast of fireworks, sometimes it just creeps up on you, but that does not mean it is any less powerful. Let us not forget, too, that JKR has said "Harry needs Hermione, desperately." Perhaps she means in addition to his needing her to help him fight Voldemort, that he needs her in other ways, too. You pointed out their points of compatability so very well. In another interview or online chat, which I could not find, JKR does mentions that there was something going on between Ron and Hermione too, but that Ron was being a typical boy. It is blatantly obvious that Ron is developing an interest in her, perhaps she in him as well, and there may be some kind of adolescent triangle in the making. The fact remains, however, that Ron and Hermione have not established any bond beyond the Trio and there doesn???t seem to be much mutual respect or groundwork yet for a real relationship. Ron finds Hermione irritatingly brilliant and I think she sees him as unperceptive and not making the most of his considerable abilities. But these are children still and there are still three books to go. However, IMHO, the only way I can see Harry and Hermione not eventually ending up together is if Harry dies at the end as a classic sacrificial hero, or if he is so scarred by his experiences with Voldemort in the magical world, that he needs time away from everything and everyone to mend emotionally. This happens to Frodo Baggins in LOTR when he goes off to the Blessed Realm with the elves. I know SHIPS have been discussed before, but, I don't think, from this angle. And perhaps I'm taking too much of an English Literature approach. Have you (or anyone else) any additional ideas or observations? Make a long post if you must. I???ll get a cup of tea and read it. --Judy From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Sun Sep 29 17:14:32 2002 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 10:14:32 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: On Trial In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3877246230.20020929101432@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44670 Sunday, September 29, 2002, 7:55:30 AM, Melody wrote: M> There is not reform program in Azkaban. Seems the WW believes once a M> bad guy always a bad guy. I'm suprised the WW doesn't still use "Trial by Ordeal" or the Cruciatus Curse to force confessions. (I can't believe I'm feeling so bitter today -- And about a series of novels!) -- Dave From Littlered32773 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 29 17:08:16 2002 From: Littlered32773 at yahoo.com (oz_widgeon) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 17:08:16 -0000 Subject: Neville's Bravery In-Reply-To: <183.f400468.2ac85213@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44671 > That's not entirely true. Neville has in fact shown more of his own brand of > bravery than many of the others in the house (and let's face it, hardly > anyone besides the Trio gets a chance to show bravery). > > In SS/PS, I believe, Neville took on both Crabbe and Goyle at the Quidditch > game when Ron started fighting with Draco. Also in SS/PS Neville stood up to > the Trio when they started to sneak out of the common room. Before Hogwarts > he had to deal with all of his Uncle Algie's little 'tests' to see if he was > magic (getting pushed off a pier, hanging out the window, etc.). He's lived > with the knowledge of what his parents went through to get in their current > state for 14/15 years-- even Harry thought that having one's parents alive > and practically vegetables was worse than dead parents. > > I think poor Neville gets underestimated-- he may not be as *blantantly* > brave as Harry, Ron, and Hermione but he is brave all the same. > > > Calypso > Woohoo! Go Calypso! I totally agree with you! Neville is so underestimated. He has shown both loyalty and bravery in each book. If I remember correctly, in CoS (haven't read it in a while), he's one of the few people who still talks to Harry when everyone else thinks he's the heir. Besides, you are correect, other than the trio, who in Gryffindor has shown ANY type of bravery? Loyalty, yes, but bravery? I dont' understand why everyone is so hung up on Neville being a wimp. He's NOT! He's never complained about his lot in life, and never griped about the fact that his parents don't know him. He's taken it all and kept going, like the brave person he is, and THAT'S WHY HE'S IN GRYFFINDOR! From daniel.brent at cwctv.net Sun Sep 29 17:18:44 2002 From: daniel.brent at cwctv.net (evenflow200214) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 17:18:44 -0000 Subject: wormtail's supposed bravery and Crouch jr and the Imperius Curse was:Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Houses Mystery) In-Reply-To: <3D96C8D3.000001.43379@i3a2c5> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44672 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rita" wrote: > > > > > Daniel on Wormtail: > > >He is mocked for his supposed cowardice yet he has done many brave things, > albeit for > >evil. A lesser man would not have had the nerve to face Sirius after > >betraying the Potters, they would have gone underground. But Peter > >allowed Sirius a chance to fight and Sirius lost. > > Sorry to contradict you, but facing Sirius was only part of the plan to go > underground letting everyone believe he had died. He didn't allow Sirius > anything, Sirius was the only one to know that he was the real Secret Keeper > so he was sure that only Sirius would have come after him when what > happened to the Potters had become known; he also knew that everyone else > thought Sirius the Secret Keeper so that he (Sirius) would be blamed; > staging his murder by Sirius would leave everyone further convinced that > Sirius was the culprit. > It's true that the only account of what happened in > that occasion is given by Sirius, so you can certainly call it a biased > version of the facts, anyway in PoA ch. 19 Sirius says that Peter didn't > even attempt to fight " he yelled for the whole street to hear that I'd > betrayed lily and James. Then, beforeI could curse him,he blew apart the > street with the wand behind his back, killed everyone within 20 feet of > himself- and sped down the sewer wit the other rats". > > Did we get a clear picture of who's idea it was that Wormtail turn in Sirius? We know that Voldemort never even considered his own downfall. I can't see other DE's or the good side helping him after as he would have been hated by both had he "stayed alive" And McGonagall, who is less in the inner crowd, said that Peter tracked Sirius down which meant that Peter had to get Sirius there and risk being killed on the spot. > >He also allowed > >himself excruciating pain to get Voldemort back to power, the way he > >cut his arm off shows a brave man > > > I don't see any bravery in this either. It seems to me he's simply overruled > by Voldemort who commands fear even in his hapless baby form. > Yeah, I agree. You're probably right > > What you said in your other post about Crouch jr is very interesting. I > didn't recall that Harry had already tried and sort of overcome the Imperius > Curse with the help of the fake Moody. Why giving to someone you know is > going to fight in a battle you are supposed to wish he will lose a useful > trick that might help him win? Crouch could not know if Vold meant to use > that curse against Harry, but as we're told that the Unforgivable Curses > were tipical of Vold and his followers he must have known that the least > Harry knew about them the better! Dumbl. might have asked Moody to show them > to the 4th-years and so he couldn't have refused. But why, in the first > place? > I assume that there might be Dumb behind this choice because Moody in > his first lesson says: "I'm not supposed to show you what illegal Dark > curses look like until you're in the 6th year. You're not supposed to be old > enough to deal with it til then. Bur Professor dumbledore's got a higher > opinion of your nerves, he reckons you can cope". did D know that Harry > might have needed to know such curses, maybe in relation to the fact that he > had be entered into the Tournament? > > One last thought about the Imperius Curse, it doesn't seem to be that big > deal if in one book we are shown 3 characters fighting it ( Crouch sr, > Crouch jr and harry)! > R. > Crouch jnr must have been interested in Harry's supreme power. It took Crouch jnr years to break free of the curse, Crouch snr months and this "special child" takes five minutes. This shows Harry's potential power The thing is though, he put Harry through it about five times, if he wanted to stick to what Dumbledore said, why not show him once and move on to someone else? But it says in the text, he "put him through it five times until he could throw it off" > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From daniel.brent at cwctv.net Sun Sep 29 17:22:01 2002 From: daniel.brent at cwctv.net (evenflow200214) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 17:22:01 -0000 Subject: Sirius And The Death Eaters Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44673 In PoA, Fudge says that it came out that Sirius was Voldie's right hand man. Obviously he wasn't but with this rumour, wouldn't the Death Eaters be a bit confused as to who this guy is, who is claimed to be Voldie's right hand man who they don't even know about? They wouldn't want to save Wormtail's skin, so wouldn't it float around that Sirius actually is innocent From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 29 18:43:20 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 18:43:20 -0000 Subject: Sirius And The Death Eaters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44674 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "evenflow200214" wrote: > In PoA, Fudge says that it came out that Sirius was Voldie's right > hand man. Obviously he wasn't but with this rumour, wouldn't the > Death Eaters be a bit confused as to who this guy is, who is claimed > to be Voldie's right hand man who they don't even know about? They > wouldn't want to save Wormtail's skin, so wouldn't it float around > that Sirius actually is innocent I'm sure many Death Eaters do know that Sirius is innocent (though not all of them -- we know that not all Death Eaters knew who all the others were, implying some sort of cell structure among them). But I expect they kept quiet about it, not because they wanted to protect Wormtail, but because they liked the idea of one of the good guys rotting in Azkaban. The Death Eaters who walked free must be particularly amused -- they're living the high life, while Sirius Black the Gryffindor golden boy is Dementor food. I'm sure they get a great laugh out of it. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From rvotaw at i-55.com Sun Sep 29 18:53:09 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 13:53:09 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's only Living Relatives/ Barty Crouch Jr./ Houses mystery/ Neville's bravery References: <20020928132925.36057.qmail@web13003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <02c901c267e9$761195a0$f8a0cdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 44675 Barb writes: > I fail to see how "the only family he has left" is open to interpretation. When it comes to LOONiness, those words are extraordinarily clear. This statement leaves absolutely no leeway; there is no way that Harry has relatives anywhere else, given Dumbledore's statement, assuming that he is a) telling the truth; and b) fully informed of Harry's family situation. There can only be relatives in Sardinia or Australia or whatever if Dumbledore does not know about them. He is having a private conversation with McGonagall and has no reason to lie. We can speculate about his not KNOWING about other relatives all When I pointed out the differences in relatives and family, I was thinking more on the lines of a great great uncle or something. Considering the life spans of wizards, and Harry's young age, he could easily have a great great aunt or uncle, or even great-great-great aunt or uncle. The bloodlines would be so distant they would scarcely be considered "family" but they would be relatives. Regardless, they wouldn't be as closely blood related as Harry and Petunia are. At the most we could stretch it to Lily and Petunia being half sisters, but still related, and therefore a closer blood relation exists between Harry and Petunia than if Harry had a distant relative someplace in the WW. And that all seems to be important in the protection of "little Harry Potter." :) "Daniel" writes: > Was he (Barty Crouch Jr.) actually guilty of torturing the Longbottoms? > > We know that he's a Death Eater but does anything validate the theory > that he was then? Well, he did apparently know about the whole Cruciatus-Longbottom mess. You could argue that he learned it all from the trial, but why flaunt it in front of Neville the way he did while disguised as Moody? He enjoyed that a bit too much. "Daniel" again: > Why did he put Harry through the Imperius Curse five times and didn't > tell Voldemort about it? Voldemort obviously didn't know or he > wouldn't of tried it at the cemetary. There's no evidence to support that Crouch Jr. didn't tell Voldemort. Voldemort thinks he's better than any other wizard, obviously, so the way I see it he figured Harry couldn't resist *his* Imperius curse. That Crouch Jr.'s just wasn't good enough. After all, he was a bit out of practice after all that time in Azkaban and under his father's Imperious. "Daniel" writes again: > Peter suits either Gryffindor or Slytherin, maybe Ravenclaw. The only > house that he does not suit is Hufflepuff. He is mocked for his > supposed cowardice yet he has done many brave things, albeit for > evil. A lesser man would not have had the nerve to face Sirius after > betraying the Potters, they would have gone underground. But Peter > allowed Sirius a chance to fight and Sirius lost. He also allowed > himself excruciating pain to get Voldemort back to power, the way he > cut his arm off shows a brave man and to completely fool Dumbledore > and whole wizarding community shows the actions of an intelligent man > who has a knack for survival. He also became an Animagus and with or > without help, it is a difficult skill to master Peter definitely had no Ravenclaw characteristics, his own friends didn't think he was very bright from the sound of things. Ravenclaws are known for wisdom. A wise man Peter is not, or he'd never have gotten himself mixed up in this mess. Self mutliation is hardly a sign of bravery. He was just too big of a coward to tell Voldemort no, use someone else's blood. As for facing Sirius, it was all part of the plan. Peter knew everyone in the WW thought Sirius was the secret keeper, so why not finish the frame up? He fits more to a Hufflepuff than anyone else to me. For one thing, Sirius assumed he was loyal. Why? If he was in Hufflepuff, they're *supposed* to be loyal and true. Ah, but loyal to who?! psychodudeneo writes: > Neville Longbottom. > > He doesn't seem to share any of Gryffindor's traits. He avoids > conflict, he sweet, and he's not particularly brave. I beg to differ. He has plenty of good "excuses" he could pull out to defend himself many times. But he doesn't. He doesn't one time try to hide behind his parents condition and the effects it or something related to it have had on him. Not once does he mention it, even to his dormmates. Nor does he try to hide it when he does make a mistake. When McGonagall asks "What abysmally foolish person wrote down this week's passwords and left them lying around?" Neville raises his hand. That took courage. Sure, Neivlle hasn't grabbed a sword and killed a basilisk. Nor has he faced Voldemort face to face and lived to tell the tale. Nor has he faced a fully grown mountian troll, or a dragon. But, as Dumbledore said, there are all kinds of courage. It takes just as much bravery to stand up to friends as it does enemies, and that Neville has done. He's brave, he has courage, and you can be sweet and be a Gryffindor. Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From eloiseherisson at aol.com Sun Sep 29 19:18:14 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 15:18:14 EDT Subject: Crouch jr and the Imperius Curse Message-ID: <191.e1c394e.2ac8abf6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44676 In a message dated 29/09/2002 12:31:24 GMT Standard Time, potter76 at libero.it writes: > What you [Daniel] said in your other post about Crouch jr is very > interesting. I > didn't recall that Harry had already tried and sort of overcome the > Imperius > Curse with the help of the fake Moody. Why giving to someone you know is > going to fight in a battle you are supposed to wish he will lose a useful > trick that might help him win? Time to trot out one of my old theories again (those who've heard it before, look away now!) The lunatic plan which the mad evil overlord had thought up required that Harry *won* the Triwizard Tournament. To do this, he had to beat the other contestants, notably Viktor, who came from a school noted for its emphasis on the Dark Arts and may well have already been adept at casting the Imperius. More than that, Karkaroff, a known ex-DE and a whole troop of other Durmstrang students were also there. The likelihood of Viktor, Karkaroff, or one of the others using the Imperius to make Harry throw the contest must have loomed large in Crouch Jr.'s mind. Logically, Harry *needed* to be able to resist the Imperius Curse if he were to be guaranteed winning. And from the point of view of what Crouch Jr. thought Voldemort had in store for Harry, I don't think the Imperius was very important. Why on earth would he anticipate his using it? Surely he would want to punish and kill him? Cruciatus and AK he must have anticipated and he didn't teach him any tricks for resisting (if it is possible) Cruciatus or avoiding AK. I have always thought that Crouch/Moody's insistence on constant vigilance in the face of the Unforgivables rather odd. Since AK is unblockable, why is it so important to be able to anticipate that someone is about to cast it on you or to know what it looks like? It is only of any use to anticipate it if you are taught some trick for physically avoiding it. This he does not do. He doesn't even (as far as we know) give them practice in disarming. Given the *necessity* of his winning the Triwizard Cup, what did it matter if he could resist Imperius when he could be finished off with a quick AK, or his resistance diminished by a Cruciatus? Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catlady at wicca.net Sun Sep 29 20:24:20 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 20:24:20 -0000 Subject: Crookledore/dead!Evanses/broomFlooApparate/Sorting Hat/OotP/unblockableAK Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44677 Daharja wrote: << I'm suggesting (if this hasn't already been suggested), that Dumbledore may well be Crookshanks. >> Dumbledore probably is an Animagus, but so far most people have suggested that he's a bumblebee or a phoenix ... someone suggested he could be Fawkes, and the way that Fawkes and Dumbledore can be seen together is because he's using a Time Turner. I suspect that an Animagus cannot become a magical animal ... which would rule out Dumbledore being Crookshanks, because JKR said that Crookshanks is part-Kneazle and Kneazles are magical animals. Any way, I feel sure that JKR's publishers would do everything in their power to prevent her from having Dumbledore (in cat disguise) hanging out in the girls' bedrooms and sitting on girls' laps. I also have trouble believing that the great and powerful Dumbledore is a little bitty bee. bbhoy_mn wrote: << I guess we gave to assume that Petunia's parents are dead. While they aren't Potters, they are Harry's grandparents and would certainly be considered family. >> Yes. I have often speculated that Petunia murdered them in a fit of rage over them preferring Lily. bboy_mn wrote: << Does the Floo network reach all the way to the US, China, and Australia? Do protkey have a limited range? Are there travel networks that use portkey that you can use to travel just like the muggles use trains? >> I'm pretty sure that the Floo Network DOESN'T reach North America, and neither does any Portkey network: QTTA says that before the famous first trans-Atlantic broom crossing, wizards preferred to use ships. Ships, not Floo, not Portkey. (Altho' I can't think of any reason but tradition that there wouldn't be Floo across the Channel.) It IS possible to Portkey from Britain to the Sahara, as in the case of the referee whose broomstick was turned into a Portkey ... but there's no reason to assume that the person who did it cared whether it was risky. << I got the impression, although it isn't clearly stated, in the Philosopher's Stone when Dumbledore was called away by an owl from the Ministry, that he flew a broom to London. I would think a great wizard like Dumbledore could apparate a long way. But apparently the 600 to 700 kilometers from North Scotland to London was beyond his capacity. >> Yes, that whole scene is very confusing. Dumbledore *did* give the impression that he had travelled by broom, that he had been deceived by a fake owl that lured him away, and that he had returned on a hunch. It's enough to make one join the conspiracy theorists and suppose that Dumbledore was merely *pretending* to be absent so as to let Harry and Quirrelmort have it out one-on-one. Psycho Dude Neo wrote: << We're never really explained quite WHAT the Sorting Hat is. Is it a totally independed entity? Does it draw on the spirits of the founders of Hogwarts? We don't really know quite what goes on during a Sorting. We know what the Hat says to Harry, but we don't really know how it's getting it's information. It's assumed that it just reads minds, but it seems to do more than that. Besides, I'm inclined to trust any item enchanted by 4 of history's greatest Wizards and Witches. >> There was speculation on the list (I have no idea what keyword to use to search for it) that the Sorting Hat is an independent entity that is ESE so evil, or at least does all in its power to make sure that the wizarding community is too busy fighting civil wars to make progress. Nitpick: the Founders were the four greatest Wizards and Witches in Britain in the 10th century, which leaves a lot of room for even greater Wizards and Witches in other places and other centuries. Judy Ellis: << according to a [2000] interview with JKR, Ginny will play a larger role in the upcoming OoP. >> The same JKR who told Lizo that Ron's cousin would appear in Book 4. Eloise wrote: << Since AK is unblockable, why is it so important to be able to anticipate that someone is about to cast it on you or to know what it looks like? It is only of any use to anticipate it if you are taught some trick for physically avoiding it. >> Dodge. Apparate out of the way (if Apparation is fast enough). From kkearney at students.miami.edu Sun Sep 29 21:00:38 2002 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 21:00:38 -0000 Subject: On Trial In-Reply-To: <14476749788.20020929100615@mindspring.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44678 Erasmus wrote: > i> I agree that the trials are lacking in a standard of justice. I would > i> imagine, though, that it's really difficult to prove anything for > i> sure in a magical world, and that the jurists must base their > i> decisions mostly on intuition. And Dave added: > One word: "Veritaserum". Yet they they almost never use it, and > depend on, as you say, "intuition" -- "You only have to look at Sirius > Black to tell that he's a murderer." Quod Erat Demonstradum. Erasmus again: > i> I agree that the trials are lacking in a standard of justice. I would > i> imagine, though, that it's really difficult to prove anything for > i> sure in a magical world, and that the jurists must base their > i> decisions mostly on intuition. The defendants are given an > i> opportunity to speak, but without defense council, it's likely very > i> hard to gather evidence to prove their innocence. I think that in > i> cases where the defendent has something unexpected to say, further > i> investigation may be called for to see if the claims can be verified. And Dave: > Whereas we vile Muggles have Magna Carta, the Bill of Rights, and > "innocent until proven guilty". Frankly, I think that if I ever > got a letter from Hogwarts I'd tear it up, 'cause the Magical world > is not all it's cracked up to be. Me finally: I got the impression that the trials that took place during Voldemort's reign were not at all typical of wizarding trials. After all, when Sirius mentioned that he was sent to Azkaban without a trial, Harry, Ron, and Hermione are horrified. For something like that to occur was as unheard of to these three wizards as it is to us Muggles. It was a time of panic, and the WW repsponded drastically. The same thing occurrs here in the Muggle world (just watch justice systems change following terrorist attacks). -Corinth From viper3082002 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 29 19:42:19 2002 From: viper3082002 at yahoo.com (Bill Hack) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 19:42:19 -0000 Subject: Water and broom travel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44679 > Flying the Atlantic by the best New York to London route is freezing > cold even in the best weather. Plus, I seriously doubt that the > standard broom is capable of flying at 400 to 500 miles per hour, and > at that speed the windchill is bitter cold. And, not too many places > to stop and take a pee, and get a hamburger along the way. > > Flying the Atlantic in a modern jet airplane is a miserable tedious > boring uncomfortable experience, it has to be a living hell on a > broom, even if the broom does have an enchanted cushion on it. Having piloted a virtual DC-3 from Presque Isle, Me., to Prestwick, via Goose Bay, Narsarsuaq, and Keflavik, the water is very deep, and very cold and it is a long way to dry feet. Even at 125 kts, it is a long time in the air, in a heated cabin, at 7500 ft. Having ridden a motorcycle in a Florida winter, even at only 32 degrees F., it is wicked cold, and not something I would look forward to repeating. My question is, besides the discomfort factor, is the presumption that there a physical barrier to long over-water flight by broom. You could lose a banshee by crossing over running water, and Ichabod Crane avoided the Headless Horseman by crossing a stream, (is the Headless Horseman eligable for the Headless Hunt, being a Hessian and all?) I wonder if, bases on the Canon, or lack there of, if running water serves as an insulator to whatever power keeps a broom or Axminster carpet, in the air. You could coast across a stream on a broom, with only a small loss of altitude, but an ocean might just be too big. Just a thought. Bill Hack From jodel at aol.com Sun Sep 29 21:35:39 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 17:35:39 EDT Subject: Common rooms Message-ID: <109.19565015.2ac8cc2b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44680 I tend to agree with bboy_m as to the way that the isolation of the houses tends to divide them rather than to foster cooperation. Any such artificial divisions within the overall group will encourage an us/them mentality. But I am not sure that we are not gifting the location of the four houses' common rooms with more secrecy than actually exists. I suspect that by the middle of one's first year just about every student has the general idea of where the common rooms of the other houses are located. They may even know which painting or statue is the gatekeeper for the houses other than one's own. They don't know the passwords, of course, but they aren't supposed to. I am also firmly of the opinion that each house's amenities are extremely similar with the chief difference between them being that each common room is on a different floor, and that the reason for this arrangement is in consideration of traffic control in the hallways at the times of day that large numbers of students from each house are all headed in one direction. It would also tend to confine the damage in the case of magical disaster in one of the towers. Another thing about Hogwarts that I cannot ever see being tolerated in a US school is the apparant lack of adult supervision once inside the Houses. We almost never see McGonagall sticking her head into even the common room, let alone doing an inspection of the tower. All supervision appears to be in the hands of the Prefects. I doubt this is the case even in a UK boarding school in this day and age, but it is very much the impression one gets when reading memoirs of life in boarding schools around the turn of the 20th century and earlier. -JOdel From jodel at aol.com Sun Sep 29 21:35:45 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 17:35:45 EDT Subject: the Sorting Hat Message-ID: <61.26bb4218.2ac8cc31@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44681 "psychodudeneo" writes; << We're never really explained quite WHAT the Sorting Hat is. Is it a totally independed entity? Does it draw on the spirits of the founders of Hogwarts? We don't really know quite what goes on during a Sorting. We know what the Hat says to Harry, but we don't really know how it's getting it's information. It's assumed that it just reads minds, but it seems to do more than that. >> Well, if nothing else it is one powerfully charmed object (leading me to suppose that Godric was probably the Hogwarts Charms Master in the early days). I suspect that when the Sorting Hat was first being "programed" each of the founders put it on and thought about what qualities their ideal student would have. Which gifts they wanted to train and guide. Creating a template, as it were. And the Hat compares each of the students it sorts to find the closest match. When there is an all but perfect match (as in Malfoy's case) the Hat doesn't even ask the child's oppinion, just shouts out the name and moves on. In most cases it has to reach a little and invites the child's feedback. I suspect that a few of the more questionable placements which we have seen, (Crabbe and Goyle, Longbottom) have less to do with some hidden quality which they *have* than with the absence of some quality which the founder of the house to which they might appear to be more suited would have demanded. For example; Longbottom *appears* to be best suited for Hufflepuff. Why? Because of Hufflepuff's reputation as being a "lot of duffers"? Probably. Longbottom certainly appears to be a full-scale duffer. But was Helga selecting for duffers? No. Helga was selecting for good little "other-directed" worker bees who perform as a team and don't rock the boat. Just about every quality she placed a premium on (fairness, loyalty, kindness) was aimed at greasing the wheels of cooperation within a self-defined group, topped off by the endurance necessary to get the job done. I don't really get the feeling that Neville, for all that he needs a lot of one-on-one help from others in his classwork, is really all that much of a team player. He's much too self-contained for Helga's taste. Any of the other founders valued that quality more than she did. Neville's detachment isn't of the intellectual order that Rowena favored either, and ghod knows he is too direct for Salizar. Godric would have taken him on, and gladly, self-sufficiency and straightforwardness are qualities he apreciated. There's no mystery at all in Neville's placement. He's a Gryffandor. -JOdel From Zarleycat at aol.com Sun Sep 29 22:01:04 2002 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 22:01:04 -0000 Subject: wormtail's supposed bravery and Crouch jr and the Imperius Curse was:Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Houses Mystery) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44682 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "evenflow200214" wrote: > Did we get a clear picture of who's idea it was that Wormtail turn in > Sirius? We know that Voldemort never even considered his own > downfall. I can't see other DE's or the good side helping him after > as he would have been hated by both had he "stayed alive" And > McGonagall, who is less in the inner crowd, said that Peter tracked > Sirius down which meant that Peter had to get Sirius there and risk > being killed on the spot. Oh, I'm sure Peter knew he'd have an angry and distraught Padfoot on his tail. One thing I've always wondered about this is how did Sirius know where to find Peter? Blind luck? Or did Peter, with or without someone else's help, leave clues of some sort? McGonagall is speaking from false assumptions. When she talks about she is still assuming he was the brave, but foolish person taking on evil, dangerous Dark Wizard Sirius. I think it's quite possible that Sirius could have taken down Peter, but that there were too many people in between them, and he was unwilling to do harm to innocent bystanders. Which Peter couldn't care less about. In "The Servant of Lord Voldemort" in PoA, Sirius says "When I cornered him, he yelled for the whole street to hear that I betrayed Lily and James. Then, before I could curse him, he blew apart the street...killed everyone with twenty feet of himself..." Which to me indicates that at least some of the 12 dead Muggles were between the two wizards. This, to me, is more evidence that Peter is not brave. Rather, he will use whatever means he has to for his own protection. Marianne From catlady at wicca.net Sun Sep 29 22:31:03 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 22:31:03 -0000 Subject: Water and broom travel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44683 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Bill Hack" wrote: > all?) I wonder if, bases on the Canon, or lack there of, if running > water serves as an insulator to whatever power keeps a broom or > Axminster carpet, in the air. You could coast across a stream on a > broom, with only a small loss of altitude, but an ocean might just > be too big. I really doubt it. I really think they were reluctant to cross oceans on broomsticks simply because of having no place to land IN CASE something went wrong (doesn't QTTA say something about broomsticks not having been repliable enough?) or the broomstick ran out of power. That it was just as likely that the something would go wrong flying the same distance over dry land, but there would be someplace to land. I suppose if they were careful to bring Gillyweed when attempting transatlantic broom flight ... do we know of any warmth spells in canon? From fyredriftwood at yahoo.com Mon Sep 30 03:00:07 2002 From: fyredriftwood at yahoo.com (Fyre Wood) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 03:00:07 -0000 Subject: Moaning Myrtle's house In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44684 Slon said: > I don't know if this has been discussed here before or not (it's so > busy, it's hard to keep up), but does anyone have any ideas on what > house Moaning Myrtle was in and why? I'd love to hear about them! > > Slon It never says, however the "movie that must not be named" has this pic of her, and it appears that her tie is green! http://twnext.atnext.com/images/next- photos/TaiwanNext/070/640pixfolder/062-066-B070ENT050/B070ENT05013.jpg Please please please don't have the Basilisk come and attack me for doing that. However, I'd say that she was a Slytherin--she just seemed so bent on causing destruction and had the attitude. --Fyre Wood, who feels that she broke a rule, but did it to help out Slon. From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Sep 30 03:22:36 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 03:22:36 -0000 Subject: Moaning Myrtle's house In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44685 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Fyre Wood" wrote: > > However, I'd say that she was a Slytherin--she just seemed so bent on causing destruction and had the attitude. > Well, that would resolve the question of whether Muggle-borns are ever sorted into Slytherin. No wonder she was unhappy! Pippin From fyredriftwood at yahoo.com Mon Sep 30 03:33:55 2002 From: fyredriftwood at yahoo.com (Fyre Wood) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 03:33:55 -0000 Subject: Moaning Myrtle's house In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44686 Pippin wrote: > Well, that would resolve the question of whether Muggle-borns > are ever sorted into Slytherin. No wonder she was unhappy! > > Pippin Yes, well.. that would make sense. I mean she was taunted and teased-- she's probably happy that she was murdered when she was. Now the question remains: Where *should* she have gone. --Fyre Wood, who waits for an answer while making her Slytherin School Girl Outfit. (Think Britney Spears meets Pansy Parkinson) From mcarlin at ev1.net Sun Sep 29 21:06:54 2002 From: mcarlin at ev1.net (Megan Carlin) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 16:06:54 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lucius vs. Arthur References: <9c.26dc8ec1.2ac7840a@aol.com> Message-ID: <004501c267fc$247126d0$1c00a8c0@tom> No: HPFGUIDX 44687 Jodel says: >>Until we get some clearer statement on the age of the two oldest Weasley brothers it will be difficult to set any solid anchor points in the timeline, however.<< For the sake of an RPG I'm involved in, we sat down and figured out the Weasleys' ages. In SS, they state that it's been 6 years since they won the house cup (since Charlie Weasley was there). So going by that math, we assume (ass u me, I know) that Charlie has been gone from Hogwarts for that 6 years. If he's anything like Oliver, he'd have probably started off on the team second or third year and played all the way until he graduated. So if Ron is 11 in his first years, 6 years before, he would have been 5 when Charlie graduated from Hogwarts. If Charlie was 17-18 when he graduated (as the timeline seems to be going...11/first year, 12/second year, etc) that makes him 12-13 years older than Ron. Now I don't know if Bill is older (I can't remember and don't have my books handy), but if he is than I'd say probably not more than 2-3 years older than Charlie. That just seems more likely, after reading GoF and seeing how the different parts of the siblings act toward each other. So lets say for speculation's sake that Bill is 2 years older than Charlie. That would make him 14-15 years older than Ron. If we assume 9 months for a pregnancy, and we also assume that Molly and Arthur were married when she got pregnant then I'm going to round off and put us at 16 years from her getting pregnant from Bill to Ron. That would make Bill 28-29 at the events of GoF (if Ron is 14, which I seem to remember he was or was turning). If we say Molly got married and pregnant with Bill within one year of graduating then she was probably 18-19 at the time. So if we add Bill's age (plus 9 months for pregnancy) to that we get 46-47, maybe as old as 48. Of course all of this assumes that Molly was (A) in the same year as Arthur and (B) got married/pregnant right after graduating from Hogwarts. But of course, if we get more information we can shift the equation to make it correct. Wow I have too much time on my hands. Hehe. Idly, Megan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From anakinbester at hotmail.com Sun Sep 29 21:11:30 2002 From: anakinbester at hotmail.com (anakinbester) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 21:11:30 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: On Trial + WW questions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44688 Dave Wrote: >One word: "Veritaserum". Yet they they almost never use it, and >depend on, as you say, "intuition" -- That's hardly fair. Veritaserum is not fool proof. People can only admit to what they believe to be true, as indicated by Fudge's disbelief of Barty Crouch's testimony. He said that Barty could have though he was working for Voldemort, but that wouldn't be true. However, it would be very easy for the wizarding world to place too much trust in a confession given under those circumstances, and stop taking into account the possibility of a misinformed witness. Now, the fact that some much seems based on intuition *groans* I'll give you that. Especially after Bagman's trail. But then again, how many famous people in the muggle world (or at least America) get off the hook extremely easily because they're famous. I think half the American football player and baseball player have gotten similar treatment in courts. >Whereas we vile Muggles have Magna Carta, the Bill of Rights, and >"innocent until proven guilty". We say we have those things. However, I wouldn't want to be a poor Hispanic accused of a crime by a wealthy white person in Texas. All the evidence in the world could prove my innocence and I'd probably still do some jail time. It just recently came out that this poor woman who had a life sentence, of which she'd served 9 years, was completely innocent of her crime. The evidence against her was thus: She had the same make of car and the same name the criminal had used to purchase the car The evidence for her innocence was that she had a time stamped card from a ban on the other side of town. Her husband testified that there car had been repairs that day so he's had to drive her to work and pick her up, and all her coworkers could place her at work at the time of the crime which occurred across town. This woman was still found guilty and only let out 9 years later. It stinks, but it happens even in the muggle world. I think it's almost better do be honest and say hey we're being such jerks. We're not even going to give you a trial. Rather then to give Sirius a drumhead trial where he has no chance. At least the WW was honest in its blindness. Also though, do we know that we saw the entire trial, or only the finale-sentencing phase? I never assumed we were seeing a complete trial in the pensieve scenes. >If got a letter from Hogwarts I'd tear it up, 'cause the Magical world >is not all it's cracked up to be. You know what, that brings up something I'd wondered about. What do they do if there's a muggle born student who decides to go back to the muggle world? Heck what if a wizard born student up and decides to go to the muggle world? What if someone spent a year at Hogwarts and decided it was horrible. They really wanted be an astronaught or something, and obviously you don't learn those kind of skills at Hogwarts. What would the wizarding world do? Oblivate the student? That seems horrible! Can you leave the wizarding world once your part of it? What about the Weasley relative who's an accountant or something. Does he or she know what his or her relatives are? -Ani From myphilosophy2001 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 30 00:23:16 2002 From: myphilosophy2001 at yahoo.com (Moonstruck) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 17:23:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: H/H, H/R or other? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020930002316.81201.qmail@web20805.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44689 Ooh! That was *fun*! Be warned: this one's lengthy! Judy said: >I found the quote JKR made before Gof came out. It >was taken from a chat transcript on Wed, Sept 18, >1999: "I'm having so much fun writing Book 4 because >for the first time Harry, Ron, and Hermoine are >starting to recognize boys and girls as boys and >girls. Everyone is IN LOVE with the wrong people." >(emphasis mine) > Being "in love" with the wrong people is a long way > from "being with the wrong partners," don't you agree? You do have a very valid point there, though I'm rather confused by Rowling's use of the phrase "in love with." I wouldn't say any of the characters in GoF are in love with anyone else. Smitten, perhaps, but definitely not *in love*. Is Harry *in love* with Cho? No, he hardly knows her. Is Hermione *in love* with Krum or Ron with Fleur? Certainly not. Perhaps she's using the term liberally. It's a matter of semantics, but I find it troublesome nonetheless. Furthermore, how do we designate these mistaken *love* relationships? Hermione is publicly seen with Krum, but her underlying emotional ambivalence (love/hate) for Ron is also glaringly obvious. So is Krum or Ron Mr. Wrong (say that five times fast)? Or both? Same with Ron he salivates over any attractive female, but clearly feels jealously possessive over Hermione. Which, if not both, of these romantic tendencies is errant? Im sure JKR has blurred the line as much as possible to make conclusions less obvious. >Now, please consider the following about Ginny >Weasley: I may be wrong, or missed important bits, >but I could find no canon evidence that Ginny Weasley >has in any way become a "major player" in GoF or any >other books. The Trio has never taken her into their >confidence and, by GoF, she is, for all intents and >purposes, still an outsider. Ginny Weasley is a serious thorn in my side. Shes the wild card. Right now, shes merely a caricature and that makes me extremely suspicious. As a Weasley, Ginny is simply too important to the plot to remain underdeveloped. Besides, how many characters in the HP series can you truly call underdeveloped? I think OoP will make or break her as a potential partner for Harry and Rowling has said Ginny be playing a bigger role. Perhaps Im a pessimist, but my overwhelming sense with Ginny is that, as the series, progresses and we discover more about Lily Potter (another development JKR has said will begin in OoP and I fear thats not a coincidence), were going to increasingly find that shes a modern day embodiment of Harrys mother. There are really only two thoughts that lead me in that direction right now and theyre debatable: Ginny is a shortened version of the name Virginia. I believe this is significant because the name Ginny is not particularly common and its close enough to the name Jenny that there must be a specific reason she chose that variation of the name. Virginia means chaste, virginal. The flower lily is a symbol of innocence, purity and beauty. It seems to me chastity, virginity, innocence, and purity all represent the same ideals. Ginny has red hair a weak case for hardcore comparison, but show me another female anywhere near Harrys age who has red hair. I have to say for Ginny and Harry what I said for Ron and Hermione JKR is fond of establishing parallels between characters. It makes sense then that the romantic developments in Harry, Ron, and Hermione (but particularly Harry and Ron) lives will mirror those of their parents. We all ready know Harry is the spitting image of his father in both appearance and behavior. It wouldnt be a huge stretch to believe Ginny will closely resemble Lily, making Harry and Ginny the obvious match for one another. But JKR is going to have to REALLY go a long way to convince me that Ginny Weasley is either (a) a feisty, smart heroine type, or (b) Harrys ideal gal. Ginnys just been too much giggly and blushing in the first four books to impress me much. In fact, she embodies all the stereotypical traits of femininity that I find highly irritating and of which Hermione represents an antithesis. Ginnys entire identity is woven around her schoolgirl crush on Harry. The only book in which she plays any importance, CoS, centers on how her seemingly all-consuming infatuation of Harry nearly topples the balance of the universe and leaves her in need of rescuing. Please. Does she do *anything* but sit around pining for Harry? > Ginny does not know Harry in any way other than >the most superficial. By GoF, shes still giggling >when he smiles at her (Chap. 5) This is nearly a >mirror of the relationship Harry has with Cho. He >only knows "she is pretty, is a good Quidditch player >and is very popular." (Chap. 22 GoF) They have never >sat down and had a conversation. All Harry knows is >that his stomach does flip flops when she is around. >Just as Ginny doesn't know if she'd even LIKE the >real Harry -- Harry doesn't know if he'd LIKE the >real Cho. With Hermione and Ron, apart from the Trio, >there is no "we" concept--they just argue. Harry and >Hermione, however, have been slowly developing one >which I will discuss later. >By Ch. 21, Ron is injured, and Harry and Hermione >must carry out a plan using a time-turner, to rescue >Buckbeak and Black. Notice their brief discussion/ >argument on Pp.398-399. They really listen to each >other and Harry at first acquiesces to Hermione's >greater understanding of time-turners, because he >trusts her judgement. Later, when the Hermione on the >other side of the lake is overwhelmed by the >Dementors, and Harry's instincts tell him to ignore >what Hermione had just told him and he summons the >powerful patronus to save them both, he becomes >Hermione's mythical "champion." It's a classic scene >from Tales of King Arthur that comes next, with a JKR >twist, of course. The hero and heroine both ride off >on the noble steed (Buckbeak). The difference here >from Harrys rescue of Ginny is that the hero and >heroine are three-dimensional individuals who have >made comparable contributions to their mutual success >(Harry never could have saved them without Hermione) >and this becomes a shared experience. This is a TERRIFIC analysis of the end of PoA! I must admit Id never compared the final conflicts on CoS and PoA, and Id not considered them from a dimensional perspective, but I think youve hit the nail square on the head. Hermione understands and respects Harry, and vise versa. Theyre equals. And together, one helps compensate for the others weaknesses. I think Ive said this before, but they really complement each other perfectly. In GoF, JKR comments that Hermione discovered the Four Points Spell, which proved to be a very handy guide in Harrys journey through the maze. So, in many ways, Hermione serves as Harrys compass. She keeps him on track, helps him go forward in the right direction, and gently nudges him back to his path when he strays. He would be lost without her. There really has been a great deal of build up throughout the first four books in deepening Harry and Hermiones relationship and establishing a very special type of bond between them so much so that it would seem to me quite anticlimactic if Harry and Hermione *werent* to hook up. And what do we make of Hermiones goodbye kiss for Harry and her particularly enthusiastic focus on Harry in GoF? I found some interesting thoughts on Hermiones role within the trio in an essay entitled The Secrets of Harry Potter, which takes a more psychological approach to the books. Its an interesting read and I highly recommend it. I think it applies a bit more to her relationship with Harry than with Ron, especially in light of the many examples of H/Hr interaction which Judy singled out: In each of the books, Hermione is repeatedly the truth-sleuth, comfortable in the library, who finds the clue that makes sense of the mystery at hand. She is always the one standing at a crossroads pointing the way.Hermione is able to stand up for her beliefs to Harry and Ron and is not as prankish or immature as the boys. The two boys value her keen insights and persistence. http://www.cgjungpage.org/articles/grynbaumpotter.html Ginny, thus far, is the helpless, hopeless princess who, in her emotional ignorance, wreaks total havoc on herself and then waits for her prince to come and rescue her. Is that *really* what we want for Harry? Methinks not. However, the importance of her and her feelings for Harry in one of Harrys big battles with Voldemort/Tom Riddle causes me pause. Perhaps it is an indication of the centrality those emotions will play if future books. In my opinion, the thorny question is not so much who is better suited for whom, but where JKR is going with the plot and how she envisions these characters relationships to figure into that. I, too, read the BBC article a few months ago and immediately bookmarked it because it was the first indication Id come across that JKR may be intending some kind of romance between Harry and Hermione (be it one sided or mutual). What I find trouble some about the piece is that it is the only legitimate place Ive read of JKR suggesting romantic H/Hr complications. In fact, it seems JRK has done a number of interviews flat out stating there will be NO H/Hr coupling or that she doesnt see the pairing as plausible. For instance, in an AOL Chat, this is JKRs response to a question regarding a future H/Hr romance: Harry & Hermione... d'you really think they're suited? Not a denial, but not the forthrightness she exhibits when discussing Ron and Hermiones situation. Just to add some more ambiguity to the discussion, try this one on for size (Barnes&Noble, 2/03/00): Is Harry Potter ever going to fall in love with Hermione or is he going to fall in love with Ginny Weasley? In Book IV Harry does decide he likes a girl, but it's not Hermione or Ginny. However, he's only 14, so there's plenty of time for him to change his mind. ;-) All right is she indicating Hermione or Ginny here? And in her Comic Relief Chat (3/12/01), Rowling has this to say: Will Harry ever notice the long-suffering Ginny Weasley? You'll see... poor Ginny, eh?.. Does Hermione like Ron as more than a friend? The answer to that is in Goblet of Fire! Its very possible JKR is throwing us all curve balls, as shes been known to do in the past, but it still seems to me shes leaning toward a Harry/Ginny, Ron/Hermione situation. Heres my hunch: Rowling has long said she based Hermione on herself. Shes also said she named her hero Harry because its her favorite male name. In fact, she goes so far to say that if shed had a son, she would have named him Harry. My instinct is that JKR thinks of Harry as a son after all, she did, in a creative sense, give birth to him. So if JKR identifies with Hermione, it would be unnatural from her perspective to pair Harry with Hermione. I think thats why Hermione takes on a protective companion/mothering role with Harry. Hermione acts as JKR in giving guidance and support to Harry. Or maybe Im reading too much into things. Anyway, theres tons more Id like to write, but this is becoming rather depressing and its beginning to resemble a doctoral thesis. -Jessica ===== "Oh, I'll settle down with some old story/About a boy who's just like me/Thought there was love in everything and everyone/You're so naive!/After a while they always get it/They always reach a sorry end/Still it was worth it as I turned the pages solemnly, and then/With a winning smile, the boy/With naivety succeeds/At the final moment, I cried/I always cry at endings" - "Get Me Away From Here I'm Dying," Belle and Sebastian __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From penumbra10 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 30 00:28:29 2002 From: penumbra10 at yahoo.com (Judy M. Ellis) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 00:28:29 -0000 Subject: Water and broom travel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44690 "Bill Hack" wrote: > Does wide open water act as an insulator, and ban the use of brooms? > It just strikes me that the reason there aren't any Yanks at > Hogwarts is simply the difficulty of trans-oceanic wizard travel. > But there are Americans who manage to attend the Quidditch World Cup. GoF Ch. 7 " a group of middle-aged American witches sat gossiping happily beneath a spangled banner stretched between their tents that read: THE SALEM WITCHES' INSTITUTE." It does not say exactly, but we are lead to believe that they must have used a Portkey. --Judy From oppen at mycns.net Mon Sep 30 07:47:50 2002 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 02:47:50 -0500 Subject: Veritaserum thoughts Message-ID: <000f01c26855$ae0a1380$40570043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 44691 I've always kind of thought that Veritaserum might be a post-Voldemort invention. I can't see the WW staying totally static, with so many intelligent men and women having long lives to noodle around with whatever sorts of magic they fancy---and we do have canon that potions _have_ been invented very recently, what with the Wolfsbane Potion that is supposed to make poor Lupin safe to have around. (Me, I'd have gone for the good old Muggle methods---a cage, or a cell that are werewolf-proof---but that's just me). During the Voldemort years, I would bet that some of the WW's sharpest minds were working overtime on Ways and Means to deal with the problem, and one of those means could well be the invention of Veritaserum. Veritaserum would be an excellent way to "separate the sheep from the goats," at least once it was known to work and its properties were known. However, _any_ truth potion has drawbacks. In the "Miles Vorkosigan" books, a person under the influence of fast-penta is quite liable to wander off on tangents, or answer comments made in the room not addressed to him---fast-penta interrogation is an art taught in military schools. Also, there are those with natural or artificially induced allergies to the stuff, upon whom it is unwise to use it. Another drawback is that it does not confer knowledge that tue subject does not have, which it shares with Veritaserum---in other words, if I were pumped full of Veritaserum or fast-penta, I would not suddenly know things I didn't know before. _We don't know_ right now why they didn't just pump everybody they thought was guilty full of Veritaserum during the Voldemort Wars. Come to it, we don't know that the good guys invented the stuff---there are a few hints that Professor Snape himself invented it, and if so, he could have been working for the Big V when he did so, and just brought the knowledge along when he swapped sides. I notice that Dumbledore, when they are about to question Fake-Moody/Barty Crouch Jr., merely asks Professor Snape to bring "the strongest truth potion you have," not Veritaserum _eo nomine._ So, when they were dealing with the (alleged) traitor Sirius Black, as well as Barty Crouch Jr. and his alleged confederates in the torture of the Longbottoms, they may not have had a lot of the resources that the Wizard World has by the time of GoF. If they didn't have Veritaserum, or weren't sure just how good or reliable the stuff was, they rather obviously couldn't use it. From MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Sep 30 08:15:39 2002 From: MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM (mitchbailey82) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 08:15:39 -0000 Subject: Water and broom travel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44692 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: I suppose if they were careful to bring Gillyweed when > attempting transatlantic broom flight ... do we know of any warmth > spells in canon? Now me Hermionie created a portable blue flame/fire to carry about in a jar to keep the trio warm out in the playground in PS, don't have the book with me so I don't know what chapter. Michelle From kristin at jesusphreaks.org Mon Sep 30 05:56:01 2002 From: kristin at jesusphreaks.org (Risti) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 05:56:01 -0000 Subject: SHIP: H/H, H/R or other?/Harry gaining Independence In-Reply-To: <20020930002316.81201.qmail@web20805.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44693 May I first say that I love the discussion that is being brought up here, but I don't feel that I have anything to say that exactly corresponds with what has been said, instead, I would like to give my thoughts from a purely stylisticly analyzed look at the series and literature in general. Harry Potter is clearly the main protagonist, and the key focus of this series. Already, he is faced with the fact that he is an orphan due to tragic circumstances, he's grown up in a non supportive family, and most of the world counts on him to save them from certain peril. There's alot resting on the shoulders of this teenage character. Keep in mind that Harry is the narrator, which means that whatever is on his heart is what we read. In my opinion, if a love interest starts to be the thing most on his heart, we are going to lose focus of what's really important. I am of the opinion that Harry will have girl problems-crushes, awkward dates, maybe even a first kiss or two, but a serious, full hearted love relationship? Even if it's feasible in real life(which I doubt, with everything going on), its not feasible within the story. I believe that as Ginny's character grows, she will be their as support for him, maybe a symbol of the innocence of what he is trying to save. While I believe that one day their could be love between them, I hope that it is something that is only hinted at in the later books(i.e. 6 and 7...yes, I'm the only fan out there who doesn't want this issue resolved in OotP). If it doesn't happen, then so be it. I guess I take my influence for this from the character of Frodo Baggins. He to is someone who is thrust into a position where alot rests on him, and has alot of issues to settle. Notice that never once do we even hear of Frodo desiring a romantic relationship with anyone. Yes, I know the situations are different, but I think that part of the reason Tolkien kept him single was along the same lines as this:He's already been through enough. Keeping up with a Lord of the Rings analogy, you'll notice that there are several romantic subplots that go on in the background. In my opinion, that's what the Ron/Hermione relationship is. Its something that will remind the reader of love, and the power and peace that resides within it. Aside from the obvious bickering leads to romance theories, I have a different one. Ron and Hermione are their to support Harry. Many relationships come from two people who both care deeply about one person. This is why so many widow(er)s end up involved with the close friends of their former spouse. There's something to be said about a strong mutual interest. I also think that as the story progresses, and Harry matures into a more powerful wizard, the time will come when he will need to be more independent. We've already seen him shedding the support of Dumbledore, in my opinion, he will come to rely less and less on Ron and Hermione as well. Before you all go yelling at me, remember that the series is all about Harry. He's the narrator, the one in the titles, and the one in whom all the plot points ultimately revolve around. So far, in all the books, despite any help he may get, ultimately, it is Harry who has the final say. In PS, Ron and Hermione help him through the tasks, but it is Harry, ultimately, who must 'go on.' In CoS, Hermione is paralyzed, Ron is injured, Ginny is unconcious, (Gilderoy is clueless, if he counts), and Harry is the one who defeats Tom Riddle. In Prisoner of Azkaban, first of all, Harry is the one who makes the ultimate decision to spare Wormtail's life. Then, while Ron is in the hospital wing, and Hermione is unsure of what to do, it is Harry who casts the Patronus that saves them all. Goblet of Fire is where we really start to break away, and what makes me feel very strong that this will only be stronger in future books. While Ron and Hermione help him prepare, Harry is then placed alone into a situation much like the climactic scenes in PS. Once we reach the graveyard, I don't even need to say that Harry was all on his own. Even Dumbledore said he proved himself there. Ahh yes, Dumbledore, another sign that Harry is breaking off into independence. In the first three books, Dumbledore also plays a key role in the ultimate 'battle scene.' (He came and got Harry in PS, it was his Phoenix that came in CoS, and in PoA he told them to use the time turner.) But now I have completely digressed, and must get back to my original point. Ron and Hermione may have reason to sing their own version of the prelude to Disney's 'Can you feel the love tonight.'('Our trio's down to two.') While Harry is off finding his independence and his place within the wizarding world, the two of them are going to have to be doing something, aren't they? ~Risti p.s. Anyone want to start a seperate discussion on my digressions? From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com Mon Sep 30 09:16:14 2002 From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 02:16:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A Gryffindor Am I! [fight-song filk] Message-ID: <20020930091614.85218.qmail@web40302.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44694 A Gryffindor Am I! to the tune _Utah Man_ from my Alma Mater, the U of U. Our color is crimson, so I had to write it for Gryffindor! Hear an excerpt: http://www.alumni.utah.edu/continuum/winter95/UTAHMAN.html (plus read about the pilot of the WW II plane _Utah Man_ on that page) Dedicated to Brandon, who could play one heckuva tuba ALL THE GRYFFINDORS: I am a Gryffindor, sir, and we?re sure that you?ll agree Our house, it is the bravest bunch that you have ever seen Our Quidditch team is priceless, each teammate?s a shining star Our yell, you hear it ringing ?round the turrets of Hogwarts: CHORUS Who am I sir? A Gryffindor am I. A Gryffindor, sir, and will be ?till I die! We?re up to snuff, we never bluff, we?re game for any fuss No other Quidditch teams at school dare meet us in the muss. So fill your lungs and sing it out and shout it to the sky, We?ll fight for dear ol? red and gold, a Gryffindor am I! CHORUS And when we go to take our place right at the battle?s front We arm ourselves and as a group our foes we will confront No matter what they throw at us we?ll bravely stand our ground Our enemies admit we are the bravest gang around. CHORUS We may not live forever on this jolly good old sphere But while we do we?ll live courageously in spite of fear And when our Hogwart?s days are o?re and night is drawing nigh With parting breath we?ll sing this song, "A Gryffindor am I!" ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* "Tut, tut --- hardly any of you remembered that my favorite color is *lilac*. I say so in Year with the Yeti." --Gilderoy Lockhart, COS --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tabouli at unite.com.au Mon Sep 30 09:25:18 2002 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 19:25:18 +1000 Subject: JKR's personal Philosopher's Stone Message-ID: <003201c26863$4c1830e0$ec5432d2@price> No: HPFGUIDX 44695 Just had an odd little thought. The book "Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone" (British title, as I'm thinking of JKR at home, here) has in a way been JKR's own personal Philosopher's Stone. It has, in its way, provided her with close to unlimited money and a form of immortality. And, of course, the price that comes with it: fame. Having her personal life invaded and sold and spied on. As a writer, this level of success would surely have been high on her Mirror of Erised list. Now she has success beyond her wildest dreams, though, I wonder... Given that Dumbledore is the "moral compass" of the series (or so I vaguely remember from an interview somewhere: Goat?), does she herself have moments of "You know, the Stone was really not such a wonderful thing. As much money and life as you could want! The two things most human beings would choose above all - the trouble is, humans do have a knack of choosing precisely those things which are worst for them." (Dumbledore, PS/SS Ch 17)? Tabouli. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk Mon Sep 30 10:50:49 2002 From: A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk (edisbevan) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 10:50:49 -0000 Subject: Common Rooms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44696 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve" wrote: ON the extreme House separation at hogwartsP > > I seriously doubt that a system like that could exist in the US. > Possibly in a few exclusive private schools that model themselves > after European schools. >From an UK perspective the House system at Hogwarts sounds much more like the (sterotypes?) of the Greek Letter fraternities at US colleges than the House system as it survives in (some) British schools. The US Fraternites are standard horror stories by the way for any Europeans wanting to claim cultural superority over the USA. In The case of our books I suspect that dramatic devises helpful for early stories will prsent continuity problems in later stories. Edis From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Mon Sep 30 07:38:58 2002 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 07:38:58 -0000 Subject: Moaning Myrtle's house In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44698 "Fyre Wood" wrote: > > However, I'd say that she was a Slytherin--she just seemed so > bent on causing destruction and had the attitude. > > "pippin_999" wrote: > Well, that would resolve the question of whether Muggle-borns > are ever sorted into Slytherin. No wonder she was unhappy! I'm still not sure about it. First of all, the first movie had some differences from the book, like James being seeker instead of chaser. So I really don't think that a green tie in the movie is really a proove, that she was a Slytherin. I don't believe this until it is mention either by JK Rowling in an interview or in the books. Second, I cannot imagine, that a Muggle-born was in Slytherin. After all, Salazar Slytherin never wanted them in Hogwarts, so why should they be sent in his house. Even if Myrtle were a Slytherin, we don't know, that she was muggle-born. Although Draco said, that a "mudblood" died 50 years ago, we cannot be absolutely sure, that it was true. Maybe Draco just heard, that someone died, and assumed it was a muggle child, because they were the first targets of the Slytherin monster. But we know, that Myrtle had to die because she saw Tom Riddle with the Basilisk in her bathroom. She was a witness and, from Tom's point of view, had to be killed off. hickengruendler From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Mon Sep 30 12:47:30 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 13:47:30 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Common Rooms References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44699 Hi all, This may not seem as relervent, but in many boys and girls fanrtasies, we dream of living in a house full of secrets, such as secret passages, romms, etc. Now Hogwarts is pretty much wish fulfulment as far as that is concerned and playing 'hunt the common room' could be a part of hogwarts as much as learning. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: edisbevan To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 11:50 AM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Common Rooms --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve" wrote: ON the extreme House separation at hogwartsP > > I seriously doubt that a system like that could exist in the US. > Possibly in a few exclusive private schools that model themselves > after European schools. From an UK perspective the House system at Hogwarts sounds much more like the (sterotypes?) of the Greek Letter fraternities at US colleges than the House system as it survives in (some) British schools. The US Fraternites are standard horror stories by the way for any Europeans wanting to claim cultural superority over the USA. In The case of our books I suspect that dramatic devises helpful for early stories will prsent continuity problems in later stories. Edis ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pat_mahony at hotmail.com Mon Sep 30 12:59:11 2002 From: pat_mahony at hotmail.com (Pat Mahony) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 12:59:11 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Veritaserum thoughts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44700 Eric Oppen wrote: I notice that Dumbledore, when they are about to >question Fake-Moody/Barty Crouch Jr., merely asks Professor Snape to bring >"the strongest truth potion you have," not Veritaserum _eo nomine._ This quote that Eric has pointed out is significant, because of the use of the word "strongest". This implies that there are different degrees of truth serum, which means that there mus be a "weaker" truth potin. If truth potions come in different strengths, it might mean that they can be resisted, like the Imperius Curse. What would be worse than a Death Eater you *think* is telling you truth, but actually isn't? Pato Makarni _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Mon Sep 30 15:41:41 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 15:41:41 -0000 Subject: Crouch Jr. and Veritaserum (WAS: On Trial) In-Reply-To: <012e01c2677c$317d5c20$9d560043@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44701 Hail Eric Oppen of "Frank Longbottom was Judge Dredd on Acid!" fame! (I treasure that post, do you know?) --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Eric Oppen" wrote: > I can't find anything in the "trial scene" of Barty Crouch where he > explicitly _says_ "I am not a Death Eater," or "I do not serve Lord > Voldemort." All he does is scream for mercy, appeal to his parents > unsuccessfully, and say that he didn't do the particular crime he's been > charged with---the torture of the Longbottoms. _At no time_ does he > explicitly deny serving Lord Voldemort. He doesn't join in with "Mrs. > Lestrange's" cool defiance of the court---a defiance for which I cannot but > admire her poise and courage---but he's only nineteen and this is his first > time through the mill, while "Mrs. Lestrange" (if that is who we saw in that > scene, _we don't know_) is mentioned as having "talked her way out of > Azkaban" and can be said to know just what fate awaits her. > > Personally, were I Lord Voldemort, I'd value live free associates that could > work my wicked will far more than I would excruciatingly loyal ones that > would allow themselves to be sent to Azkaban rather than get out of it by > pretending to renounce me, if that was all it took to keep them free and on > my side. But then, I am not an insane Dark Wizard/multiple murderer with a > yen for immortality and Absolute Power, no matter _what_ my online friends > say. I've been thinking about this (especially in association with the "Is Crouch Sr. an allegory of Stalin or just dead sexy?" discussion)and I wonder if Voldemort really does value the Lestranges' non-renunciation of him vs. Lucius Malfoy's renunciation. After all, the Lestranges talked "themselves out of Azkaban" to quote Sirius, i.e. denounced Voldemort the first time around. When Voldemort praised them above all others, I think it's more likely that he was praising them for not renouncing him in their actions. The Lestranges originally denounced Voldemort as publicly as Lucius Malfoy. The difference is that the Lestranges then started to work on getting Voldemort back and Lucius Malfoy went to work on rebuilding his reputation. Is Mrs. Lestrange's defiance of Crouch Sr. what Voldemort is praising her for when he talks about loyalty? No, I don't think so. That was.... well, pretty cool, and I'm sure Voldemort enjoyed hearing about it from Barty Jr. (who was a great actor and probably did a stunning Mrs. Lestrange imitation), but I don't think it matters at all. I wrote in my post the other day (Despiadao Denethor et al.) that I don't think Mrs. Lestrange had much of a choice in how she pleaded. So, Barty Crouch Jr. is loyal because he tried to bring back Voldemort. What he said in the courtroom doesn't matter in the least to Voldemort, who in the case of the Lestranges (the first time around) has already signalled that he approves of his followers publicly denouncing him as a means to serving him. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Pat Mahony" wrote: > Eric Oppen wrote: > I notice that Dumbledore, when they are about to > >question Fake-Moody/Barty Crouch Jr., merely asks Professor Snape to bring > >"the strongest truth potion you have," not Veritaserum _eo nomine._ > > > This quote that Eric has pointed out is significant, because of the use of > the word "strongest". This implies that there are different degrees of truth > serum, which means that there mus be a "weaker" truth potion. If truth > potions come in different strengths, it might mean that they can be > resisted, like the Imperius Curse. What would be worse than a Death Eater > you *think* is telling you truth, but actually isn't? I desperately want canon to allow Veritaserum to be resisted under certain circumstances. Otherwise, it seems too much of a cure-all. Is there anything in its canon use on Crouch that might suggest limitations (other than that it can only extract what the suspect thinks to be true)? Several people have expressed a wish to understand Crouch Jr.'s behaviour. A tricky subject to say the least, but may I suggest taking a look at Message 36223, which is imho the best analysis of Crouch Jr. by this list's foremost fan of Crouch Jr. Eileen From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Sep 30 16:31:52 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 16:31:52 -0000 Subject: Crouch Jr. and Veritaserum (WAS: On Trial) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44702 Eileen asks: > I desperately want canon to allow Veritaserum to be resisted under certain circumstances. Otherwise, it seems too much of a cure-all. Is there anything in its canon use on Crouch that might suggest limitations (other than that it can only extract what the suspect thinks to be true)? > Snape tells Harry that its use is "controlled by very strict Ministry guidelines." And, as noted, Dumbledore never actually orders the administration of veritaserum per se, he simply asks for "the strongest truth potion you have." That's plausible deniability, that is. Harry only knows it's veritaserum because he was shown the bottle earlier. It may be that veritaserum testimony is not admissible before the court, and if used by an agent of the Ministry would taint the case against the defendant. Lots of Snape's potions have antidotes. Perhaps there's a potion which could be taken in advance to ward off the effects. Also, veritaserum seems to allow only a very brief interrogation before the victim falls unconscious. If Dumbledore hadn't already known the right questions to ask, how much would he have been able to find out? Repeated doses of Veritaserum could well be very damaging. By the end of the interrogation Barty is going insane. Can repeated doses of veritaserum, like crucio and memory charms, cause a person to become so focussed on his own inner reality that he's no longer rational? Pippin From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Sep 30 17:28:04 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 17:28:04 -0000 Subject: Moaning Myrtle's house and Houses Mystery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44703 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "hickengruendler" wrote: > I'm still not sure about it. First of all, the first movie had some > differences from the book, like James being seeker instead of chaser. So I really don't think that a green tie in the movie is really a proove, that she was a Slytherin. I don't believe this until it is mention either by JK Rowling in an interview or in the books. Of course. We're just using the movie as a jumping off point. > > Second, I cannot imagine, that a Muggle-born was in Slytherin. After all, Salazar Slytherin never wanted them in Hogwarts, so why should they be sent in his house. << That's not exactly what Binns says. He says that Slytherin disliked taking Muggle borns as students. But if Slytherin was absolutely opposed to it from the beginning, it seems unlikely that he would have ever formed a partnership with the other three Founders at all. More likely his position hardened as he got older. His earlier thinking was preserved in The Sorting Hat, in the same way that Voldemort's sixteen year old mind was preserved by the Diary. I have a new theory about the Hat. Its task is "to educate young sorcerers." I think it initially offers each student the House where he/she will learn the most magic. The Hat never promises that it will put you in the House where you'll be happiest, or even where you'll find your friends. It only says, "perhaps." The information about personality is offered to the student, who, if he or she has other priorities than learning as much magic as possible, can then use it to contest the Hat's choice. So Harry is offered Slytherin as the House where he would learn most, but has the option of rejecting it. Neville would no doubt have learned more magic in Hufflepuff (probably even Snape understands that you have to be patient with the Huffles) but it seems Neville wanted to be a Gryffindor, based on his family's expectations, and the Hat puts him there, evidently with some reluctance. Hermione, who has a gift for independent study and likes to help others, will likely learn more magic as a somewhat solitary Gryffindor than she would as one of a crowd of Ravenclaws. So the Hat promptly gives her Gryffindor. Students who come to Hogwarts already keen on the Dark Arts get sorted into Slytherin because that's the only House where they can study them. (The knowledge must be passed on as lore from student to student since the subject is not formally taught.) Therefore, Crabbe, Goyle and Malfoy (and probably Snape) got sorted into Slytherin at once. As for Myrtle, with her sly and controlling nature (tears and tantrums are a method of control, though seldom effective for anyone over the age of two) and that "certain disregard for rules" it seems as if Slytherin were made for her. She might have been happier in Hufflepuff, but she probably learned more magic in Slytherin. She seems pretty accomplished. She even has some power over material objects, such as the water in her toilet, which none of the other ghosts display. >>But we know, that Myrtle had to die because she > saw Tom Riddle with the Basilisk in her bathroom. She was a witness and, from Tom's point of view, had to be killed off. << But she *didn't* see Tom, and killing her off wouldn't have helped if she had. Ghost!Myrtle could still have told everyone what she'd seen. No, I believe Tom was telling the truth when he gave his version of how Myrtle's death came about, except that it was his pet that did the killing, not Hagrid's. I'll bet Myrtle thought Tom was her friend, just the way Ginny did. In fact, if Myrtle was a Slytherin, it makes it easier to understand why most people came to believe that the whole Chamber of Secrets/Heir of Slytherin business was a hoax. Tom says he can't understand how anyone could have believed that Hagrid was the Heir of Slytherin, but probably most people didn't believe that there really was an Heir of Slytherin in the first place, and thought that Hagrid was hoaxing. Pippin From fyredriftwood at yahoo.com Mon Sep 30 17:41:43 2002 From: fyredriftwood at yahoo.com (Fyre Wood) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 17:41:43 -0000 Subject: Sorting Hat/Moaning Myrtle/ More Fun With Neville/ etc etc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44704 Pippin kindly stated: > > That's not exactly what Binns says. He says that Slytherin > disliked taking Muggle borns as students. But if Slytherin was > absolutely opposed to it from the beginning, it seems unlikely > that he would have ever formed a partnership with the other three > Founders at all. More likely his position hardened as he got > older. His earlier thinking was preserved in The Sorting Hat, in > the same way that Voldemort's sixteen year old mind was > preserved by the Diary. Fyre Wood (ME) Replies: I agree with you here. Salazar Slytherin might not have liked Mudbloods in the beginning, however he went along with the other three founders in a sort of compromise. Perhaps that compromise wasn't ever made--and was one of the factors that eventually made him leave. It's not just purebloods who are in Slytherin. After all, Riddle was a halfblood (Muggle father, witch mother) and he still made it in. Perhaps it's the interest of ambition, power-stiving, etc that makes students like Riddle go into Slytherin. Mudbloods aren't exactly welcomed there, but they do some times get sorted. Pippin Continues: > I have a new theory about the Hat. Its task is "to educate young > sorcerers." I think it initially offers each student the House > where he/she will learn the most magic. The Hat never promises > that it will put you in the House where you'll be happiest, or even > where you'll find your friends. It only says, "perhaps." > Neville would no doubt have learned more magic in Hufflepuff > (probably even Snape understands that you have to be patient > with the Huffles) but it seems Neville wanted to be a Gryffindor, > based on his family's expectations, and the Hat puts him there, > evidently with some reluctance. > Fyre Wood (me) replies: The sorting hat did take a long time with Neville, and you could be right here. Though, Snape *might* not be any better with the Hufflepuffs than he is with Neville. Maybe he just hates all students that aren't Slytherins; he could just be a mean, nasty old man with a grudge =p Pippin also states: > As for Myrtle, with her sly and controlling nature (tears and > tantrums are a method of control, though seldom effective > for anyone over the age of two) and that "certain disregard > for rules" it seems as if Slytherin were made for her. > > She might have been happier in Hufflepuff, but she probably > learned more magic in Slytherin. She seems pretty > accomplished. She even has some power over material objects, > such as the water in her toilet, which none of the other ghosts > display. Fyre Wood (ME) Replies: She also has the ability to sneak through pipes and watch Harry undress, not to mention make it out to the lake. She pretty much has an entire room to herself. Sounds pretty impressive to me =) --Fyre Wood, who really wants to know what becomes of Myrtle in the next few books--if they *ever* get published. From fyredriftwood at yahoo.com Mon Sep 30 17:50:54 2002 From: fyredriftwood at yahoo.com (Fyre Wood) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 17:50:54 -0000 Subject: SHIP: H/H, H/R or other?/Harry gaining Independence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44705 Risti kindly posted: > > Harry Potter is clearly the main protagonist, and the key focus of > this series. Already, he is faced with the fact that he is an orphan > due to tragic circumstances, he's grown up in a non supportive > family, and most of the world counts on him to save them from certain > peril. There's alot resting on the shoulders of this teenage > character. > > Keep in mind that Harry is the narrator, which means that whatever is > on his heart is what we read. In my opinion, if a love interest > starts to be the thing most on his heart, we are going to lose focus > of what's really important. > Fyre Wood (ME) replies: Any relationship between Harry and a girl would ruin the whole basis of the story. It's a good vs evil story, and a romance would ruin it. Harry just can't love anyone. >>>>>>>>>>> I am of the opinion that Harry will have girl problems- crushes, > awkward dates, maybe even a first kiss or two, but a serious, full > hearted love relationship? I reply: I can't see Harry falling in love with a girl and having a relationship. (Perhaps it's the Draco/Harry shipper in me?) But realistically, anything/anyone he loves always gets hurt. He can't afford to not only try to protect himself, but also try to protect another loved one. He's lost a lot already--and losing another loved one would probably tear him to shreds. He can't get romantically invovled. IMO, he's going to die at the end of the series, thus making any sort of attempt at a lasting romance impossible. Though, I'd like to see perhaps a frolic or two in the Astronomy Tower, or perhaps a sex talk with Ron and all the details....? >>>>>Before you all go yelling at me, remember that > the series is all about Harry. He's the narrator, the one in the > titles, and the one in whom all the plot points ultimately revolve > around. So far, in all the books, despite any help he may get, > ultimately, it is Harry who has the final say. > I reply: Unfortunately we only get to see a one-sided, bias view of everything. I would have rather seen more of the fights between Ron/Hermione after the Yule Ball, or maybe gotten into the mind of Cho Chang and why she rejects Harry. maybe she knows that getting involved with the Boy Wonder will only lead to trouble. One thing is for sure: Don't mess with Harry, for when you do, you'll only die. (ie: Cedric took his girl to the dance, and he died... Lockhart tried to kill Harry and he went insane.... Riddle tried to kill Harry and he was killed... see my point?) --Fyre Wood, who proudly chants the "Harry is GOD!" theory over and over again. From htfulcher at comcast.net Mon Sep 30 11:52:23 2002 From: htfulcher at comcast.net (marephraim) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 11:52:23 -0000 Subject: is petunia dursley a squib? In-Reply-To: <4805530.1033154186698.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44706 >Re Msg: 44598 Re: is petunia dursley a squib? --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rvotaw at i... (Richelle?) wrote: > > If indeed Petunia is a squib instead of Lily being a muggle born, there must be some really really good reason for Lily to basically enter Hogwarts under a false pretense of being a muggle born. If, perhaps, she had a "bad name" that Dumbledore or whoever didn't want her associated with or stereotyped by, claiming to be muggle born would explain why no one knew her "new name." > > Richelle I've heard this kind of discussion from several boards although I've never taken much thought of it. The interesting thing about this exchange is the possible connection to the thread #44583 "Harry's Relatives: his Uncle Voldemort and his sister Hermione"(in this group) about He Who Must Not Be Named's possible family relationship to Harry. In that discussion it is posited that the Potters were hiding precisely because You Know Who was seeking to kill them because they were his relatives. It's a short exchange, however I need to review the whole history of Riddle as from GoF. Of course this could just all be a flint. MarEprhaim From keithm at vsnl.com Mon Sep 30 13:44:27 2002 From: keithm at vsnl.com (ihatethis99in) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 13:44:27 -0000 Subject: Thoughts on SHIPS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44707 I was just watching "The Mummy" and what do I notice, couple bickering endlessly progressing to couple falling in love - talk about being cliched! It also instantly reminded me of Hermione and Ron. Then I remembered that the same thing happened in Star Wars, in Twister, in Indiana Jones And The Temple Of Doom, in numeous Tracy/Hepburn movies, "It Happened One Night" and got alone knows in how many other movies! It's been used so often that it will only seem novel if JKR's sets set it up only to have it crumble like a stack of cards when the readers and Ron least expect it. Why? because a hurt Ron is absolutely necessary in order to drive a good plot! Similarly, R/H + H/G may be smile inducing to some, but sure as hell will be vomit inducing to others (myself included) and does nothing to drive a good plot. Now I'm not saying that JKR is not going to give us R/H or H/G, but I do feel that if she does decide to go that route, she'll either give us R/H or H/G - NOT both! I am hoping for a H/H ship, or no ship at all. This is where I think she could go: JKR says that Ginny's character will be expanded in OOP but she'll have to build up Ginny's character tremendously, in order to make Ginny a realistic love interest for Harry. On the other hand, what if she builds Ginny's character to the point where we, the readers seem to care a little more, emotionally, for Ginny and then make her exit the stage permanently (at lease in the flesh) - when we least expect it? I don't think that JKR can kill of Hagrid, D'dore, Sirius, Remus or Snape, realistically, this early in the game. So JKR is going to kill off an auxiliary character and I'm betting that it will be Ginny (I don't think that it will be one of the Creeveys). If Ginny does stand for Virginia, which indicates something virginal or pure, could it not indicate a pure character who has to sacrificed or, in other words, a sacrificial lamb or virgin! What better way is there to drive a plot, than for JKR to build up the Ginny character up, have her (Ginny) finally summon up the courage to ask Harry out - only to get rejected - and then have her killed off at the end of OOP! Imagine the effect it will have on Ron? Imagine the effect it will have on Harry? Imagine the effect it will have on the readers and imagine how it could drive the plot forward. Especially in the context of a future H/H relationship (after Ginny's death)? This will no doubt frighten the hell out of H/G shippers, who consistantly make comparisons of the red haired Lily and the red haired Ginny. Remember that Lily sacrificed herself for Harry out of pure love, maybe it is Ginny's destiny to do the same! And for the record, for those who say that Ginny may be very important to Harry - whose to say that that could not happen with a revival of the Ginny character in ghost form a la like Moaning Myrtle? (One could picture them having a cute discussion as to who likes Harry more!) A complete change in the Trio - whereby Neville takes the place of Ron, by the end of book 7 would be interesting to say the very least as would a Draco/Ron pairing! Keith From anakinbester at hotmail.com Mon Sep 30 14:23:38 2002 From: anakinbester at hotmail.com (anakinbester) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 14:23:38 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Veritaserum thoughts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44708 Eric Wrote: >_We don't know_ right now why they didn't just pump everybody they thought >was guilty full of Veritaserum during the Voldemort Wars. Come to it, we >don't know that the good guys invented the stuff---there are a few hints >that Professor Snape himself invented it, and if so, he could have been >working for the Big V when he did so, and just brought the knowledge along >when he swapped sides. That's an interesting theory, and it somewhat makes sense to me. A truth serum as strong as Veitaserum seems to parallel the imperious curse somewhat. The person loses the will to do anything else but answer _any_ question truthfully. You can't order the person around obviously, but that is still a terrible loss of control. I know it's Britain and all, but I hope the American wizards would not _ever_ use it in a trail because that violates the 5th amendment in which it says "nor shall [a person] be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself," (Since I don't know any of the legal code outside the US I don't know if there's a similar law in Great Britain) Also, that has the terrible ability to be used. It must be an extremely controlled potion, and I wonder why Snape had some in his office actually. Anyways, to me the use of veritasuerm as definite overtones of dark magic because it negates a person's will like that. Not that the good wizards can't make dark spells, but it does seem more likely that it would be the invention of a dark wizard (or Snape, who's not a dark wizard... I don't think...) . And Voldemort would certainly have use for such an invention. That makes interrogation so much easier and efficient. (this ends my on topic reply, below is a brief introduction) ....................... I go by Ani or Anakin Bester online, and I'm a college student, majoring in painting and drawing at the University of North Texas, but hoping to be an illustrator. I've only had two paying jobs so far, though. I ship, but I ship Peter and Remus which is so non-canonical that I will never mention it here again *L* I've written two fanfics both on Fictionalley; "Illusions" which is in the Dark Arts section and "It Never Hurts to Try" which is in the astronomy tower section. Mostly I draw. My Harry Potter fanart can be seen here: http://anakinbester.tripod.com/PotterArt.html I also have an extremely odd interest in Peter Pettigrew which caused me to create this page: http://anakinbester.tripod.com/peter.htm (yes I had that much spare time the first week of school) If you want to reply to any of this, you can e-mail me at: anakinbester at hotmail.com -Ani From penumbra10 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 30 15:43:27 2002 From: penumbra10 at yahoo.com (Judy M. Ellis) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 15:43:27 -0000 Subject: Harry, Gaining Independence and Frodo Baggins, the Hero In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44709 "Risti" wrote: > Harry Potter is clearly the main protagonist, and the key focus of > this series. Already, he is faced with the fact that he is an orphan > due to tragic circumstances, he's grown up in a non supportive > family, and most of the world counts on him to save them from certain > peril. There's alot resting on the shoulders of this teenage > character. > I guess I take my influence for this from the character of Frodo > Baggins. He to is someone who is thrust into a position where alot > rests on him, and has alot of issues to settle. Notice that never > once do we even hear of Frodo desiring a romantic relationship with > anyone. > Keeping up with a Lord of the Rings analogy, you'll notice that there are several romantic subplots that go on in the background. In my > opinion, that's what the Ron/Hermione relationship is. Its something > that will remind the reader of love, and the power and peace that > resides within it. Aside from the obvious bickering leads to romance > theories, I have a different one. > > Ron and Hermione are their to support Harry. ... I also think that as the story progresses, and Harry matures into a > more powerful wizard, the time will come when he will need to be more > independent...> While Ron and Hermione help him prepare, Harry is then placed alone > into a situation much like the climactic scenes in PS. Once we reach > the graveyard, I don't even need to say that Harry was all on his > own. Even Dumbledore said he proved himself there? Judy responds: I think you are 100% correct about Harry's growing independence, we can see him slowly breaking away from those who have protected him during the first four novels. I do have the feeling that at the end there will be a final confrontation with Voldemort in which Harry will probably have to stand alone. (But JKR might try a different tack than this very cliche one) I do agree that there are a lot of parallels that can be drawn with the character of Frodo Baggins. The burden of what he must do, the utter evil of it is so pronounced, that it scars him terribly. I think that the lasting wound from the Morgul blade is symbollic of the emotional scars he bears after his ordeal. And JKR does repeatedly emphasize that we are dealing with evil and it needs to be shown what evil is and what evil does. The problem with making a direct, point-by-point comparison to Frodo Baggins is that Frodo was not a classic hero suitably empowered to fight evil. Every physical battle he fought, he lost. It was Frodo's very lack of power, his lack of desire to command power that made him the perfect candidate to carry the One Ring. He was never, by even the furthest stretch of the imagination, any match for Sauron. Frodo delt with many terrible things on his own, but he was never alone. Sam Gamgee was beside him until the Grey Havens. Between them was an unfailing brotherly love, in many ways more poignant and sweet than a traditional love story. Harry, on the other hand, is empowered, very much so. Harry understands things that none of his peers do, and seems to possess an insight into darkness and its inner workings that others do not. In a way, this is very, very alienating. It is difficult to say how JKR will deal with this aspect of Harry's development. Her philosophy seems to be that "no man(or woman) is an island unto him/herself." Remember Dumbledore's now famous statement at the end of Gof: "...we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided..." We have to ask ourselves, does this apply to everyone except Harry? Is there a symbollic reason he is an orphan living in an enviornment that is completely non-supportive, as you put it? I'm not sure. JKR is not a Terry Brooks or George Lucas retelling the classic hero tale. This is, I believe something a bit different. Harry seems to be empowered by his friends, by their love. Even in GoF when he is facing Voldemort alone, he is assisted by those last few Voldemort has killed. Does this somehow mean that even when it seems darkest, Harry is never truly alone? I'm not sure of that either. I do know that whatever she comes up with for the final three books will be compelling and, I truly believe uplifting at the same time. Risti also wrote: Keep in mind that Harry is the narrator, which means that whatever is > on his heart is what we read. In my opinion, if a love interest > starts to be the thing most on his heart, we are going to lose focus > of what's really important. Judy responds: I don't think that is necessarily so. If a psychopathic madman were after any one of us, I don't believe we would be composing love poems and day-dreaming instead of trying to save our lives. Love, would, of necessity, take the back seat to survival. If Harry were to fall in love -- and this is a big IF, because he will be so young, even when the series ends -- it is my opinion that loving someone would make it easier to resolve yourself to stopping a 'demon.' Your whole heart would be put into trying to protect those you love. That's what becomes most important. Reference Harry's mother's sacrifice. You have given all of us a great deal to think about. Thank you for the excellent imput. I'm looking forward to more discussion on this subject! --Judy P.S. Your Ron/Hermione subplot sounds completely plausible. -J From annemehr at yahoo.com Mon Sep 30 16:01:20 2002 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 09:01:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SHIP: H/H, H/R or other?/Harry gaining Independence In-Reply-To: <1033383761.1326.99951.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20020930160120.64681.qmail@web20809.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44710 >From "Risti" -- > > Message: 7 > Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 05:56:01 -0000 > From: "Risti" > Subject: Re: SHIP: H/H, H/R or other?/Harry gaining > Independence > > > Keep in mind that Harry is the narrator, which means > that whatever is > on his heart is what we read. In my opinion, if a > love interest > starts to be the thing most on his heart, we are > going to lose focus > of what's really important. > I agree with this. I think the fact that Ginny is such a one-dimensional character so far is simply because Harry has not yet paid much attention to her yet himself. I suppose it is a sort of self-defense against her hero-worship as he pays much more attention to the rest of the Weasleys, even Percy. In CoS, after Fred, George & Ron rescued him from P. Drive and he is staying at the Burrow, he was noticing Ginny a bit (her blushing, putting her elbow into the butter, upsetting her porridge) until it all becomes a bit much for him to take. About what Ginny and Harry's relationship will be like as her character develops, I have stopped speculating and decided to just wait and see... As for Harry and Hermione's relationship, I have never really seen any indication that they _will_ get together romantically, especially in reading GoF. There are quite a few places where Harry could notice that _Hermione is a girl_ but has no such reaction: 1. When Hermione reveals that she has a date to the dance. 2. When he actually sees Hermione at the dance, all dressed up & her hair done. 3. When Rita Skeeter writes her Witch Weekly article about Hermione throwing Harry over. Here, a pairing of the two is actually asserted, yet Harry is completely unfazed. 4. Any of the following times when Krum shows interest in Hermione. Harry's attitude is always sharply contrasted with Ron's BTW, Krum/Hermione is apparantly strictly a one-way relatinship; after the dance, anytime Krum tries to get any closer to Hermione, she always seems to be too busy paying attention to Harry. I suppose you could take this either of two ways. Maybe Hermione has a romantic interest in Harry, which she is keeping the lid on in light of current events, or it may just be that she finds she has no real interest in Krum coupled with the fact that one of her closest friends needs her right now. To sum this point up, I think Harry is very relaxed around Hermione the way one would be with a very close and trusted friend. I think JKR may have this kind of relationship in mind for them, and I don't think I would be too disappointed, because I think these kinds of friendships are very valuable. I wouldn't rule anything else out, though. After all, Harry is in the midst of his first-ever crush, on Cho. Any thoughts? Risti continues: > > I also think that as the story progresses, and Harry > matures into a > more powerful wizard, the time will come when he > will need to be more > independent. We've already seen him shedding the > support of > Dumbledore, in my opinion, he will come to rely less > and less on Ron > and Hermione as well. > In PS, Ron and Hermione help him through the tasks, > but it is Harry, > ultimately, who must 'go on.' > > In CoS, Hermione is paralyzed, Ron is injured, Ginny > is unconcious, > (Gilderoy is clueless, if he counts), and Harry is > the one who > defeats Tom Riddle. > > In Prisoner of Azkaban, first of all, Harry is the > one who makes the > ultimate decision to spare Wormtail's life. Then, > while Ron is in > the hospital wing, and Hermione is unsure of what to > do, it is Harry > who casts the Patronus that saves them all. > > Goblet of Fire is where we really start to break > away, and what makes > me feel very strong that this will only be stronger > in future books. > While Ron and Hermione help him prepare, Harry is > then placed alone > into a situation much like the climactic scenes in > PS. Once we reach > the graveyard, I don't even need to say that Harry > was all on his > own. Even Dumbledore said he proved himself there. > Ahh yes, > Dumbledore, another sign that Harry is breaking off > into > independence. In the first three books, Dumbledore > also plays a key > role in the ultimate 'battle scene.' (He came and > got Harry in PS, it > was his Phoenix that came in CoS, and in PoA he told > them to use the > time turner.) > > My thoughts: I see what you are saying, but there is also a paradox here. In the first two tasks of the triwizard tournament, Harry does need a _lot_ of help from Crouch/fake Moody. Especially in the second task, he would have fallen flat on his face otherwise. In the third task only, I think we are left free to believe that Harry could have managed on his own. So, I would like to agree with Risti here and add that part of Harry's growth to independence is going to include knowing when to go ahead and ask for help, already! Finally, to take things just one step further, I sincerely hope that Harry does continue to work _with_ these other wonderful characters. I would hate it if Harry turned out to be a "god" among wizards and too high above any of them. I _want_ to see the strengths of Ron, Hermione, Lupin, Sirius, and especially NEVILLE combined with Harry's to defeat Voldemort. Great post, Risti-- it brought some things into focus for me that had been swirling around in my mind like the stuff in the pensieve! Anne __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From ronib at mindspring.com Mon Sep 30 18:20:53 2002 From: ronib at mindspring.com (Veronica) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 18:20:53 -0000 Subject: Moaning Myrtle's house and Houses Mystery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44711 > wrote: > > The information about personality is offered to the student, who, > if he or she has other priorities than learning as much magic as > possible, can then use it to contest the Hat's choice. > > So Harry is offered Slytherin as the House where he would learn > most, but has the option of rejecting it. I would have to disagree with that. My books are temporarily on loan (you could say I'm spreading the word), so I can't double-check this, but wasn't it Harry who brought up Slytherin in the first place, not the hat? If I recall, and please correct me if I am wrong (but nicely, as I'm new around here), the hat was listing Harry's traits and characteristics when Harry began to think, "Not Slytherin!" The hat was only responding to that thought. As I remember, the hat was basically listing all the possibilities, not offering its decision for debate. wrote: > Neville would no doubt have learned more magic in Hufflepuff > (probably even Snape understands that you have to be patient > with the Huffles) but it seems Neville wanted to be a Gryffindor, > based on his family's expectations, and the Hat puts him there, > evidently with some reluctance. > My questions: 1) Other than the idea that Slytherins share information about Dark Magic with each other, how would students learn different things? They take the same classes, and since they often have classes with other house, surely they learn the same things. 2) Hufflepuffs are suppose to be just, loyal, patient, true, and hard workers. How does that get translated into dim and in need to patience from strict professors? I found a strange site that takes personality types and compares them to Hogwarts houses. First you take Myers-Briggs types and separate them into four categories. Have a look at http://www.advisorteam.com/user/ktsintro1.asp. Then this other site matches those categories with Hogwarts houses. http://keirsey.com/sortinghat.html. (My "type" was matched with Hufflepuff, but in school I was a serious overachiver--in all the clubs, made top grades, won lots of academic- and activity-related scholarships--a *real* nerd! I would have considered myself either Gryffindor or Slytherin, but never Hufflepuff since folks tend to overlook the character traits represented there and focus more on this notion that Hufflepuffs are, well, not something to aspire to.) My point is that I believe house sorting must be based more on personality than intelligence, or even potential. Look at the characters we know the most about, espeically the Trio. Bravery is the main trait they all share. Intelligence, work ethics, morality, ambition: all these traits very greatly from character to character, so I think there must be a "deciding" trait for each house that determines placement. In the case of Gryffindor, it could be courage. As for the others, I will have to think about. Any suggestions? Veronica ------------------------------------------------ Once you can accept the universe as matter expanding into nothing that is something, wearing stripes with plaid comes easy. - Albert Einstein From siskiou at earthlink.net Mon Sep 30 18:52:34 2002 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 11:52:34 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Thoughts on SHIPS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <39391374961.20020930115234@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 44712 Hi, Monday, September 30, 2002, 6:44:27 AM, ihatethis99in wrote: > It also instantly reminded me of Hermione and > Ron. Then I remembered that the same thing happened in Star Wars, in > Twister, in Indiana Jones And The Temple Of Doom, in numeous > Tracy/Hepburn movies, "It Happened One Night" and got alone knows in > how many other movies! It's been used so often that it will only seem > novel if JKR's sets set it up only to have it crumble like a stack of > cards when the readers and Ron least expect it. All those movies were *romances*, IIRC, and I wasn't aware that that's what Hp's main plot is. So far, and unless Voldemort is done and finished with in the next book and JKR switches track completely, romance in HP is a very, very minute part of the plot, mostly used to lighten things up a bit. And it wouldn't be the only cliche she has used in the books. After all, just about everything has been done, including the "hero getting the girl". I'm not into romance movies, but I'm sure somebody could quote a string of movies where this happens ;) > Why? because a hurt > Ron is absolutely necessary in order to drive a good plot! Absolutely necessary? Why? For which plot? I could see it as a "possible" minor side plot, but not the "absolutely necessary one". > Similarly, R/H + H/G may be smile inducing to some, but sure as hell > will be vomit inducing to others (myself included) and does nothing > to drive a good plot. Again, these ships are not THE plot for Harry Potter, but a very minor part. I can't see JKR rely on shipping as a major plot driving vehicle, or if she does, I'll be very disappointed. Using a love triangle to split up the trio would be one of the ultimate cliches. And these ships seem to hinge so much on personal preference. The poor author will be in hot water, no matter *which* way she decides to go ;) -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From huntleyl at mssm.org Mon Sep 30 20:03:28 2002 From: huntleyl at mssm.org (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 16:03:28 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: H/H, H/R or other?/Harry gaining Independence References: Message-ID: <004701c268bc$719dc2e0$d8c2ded1@huntleyl> No: HPFGUIDX 44713 *believes that Fyre Wood was trying to be a little bit humorous here, but is going to argue the points at face value anyway* > Fyre Wood (not ME) replies: > > Any relationship between Harry and a girl would ruin the whole basis > of the story. It's a good vs evil story, and a romance would ruin it. > Harry just can't love anyone. There are actually very few good vs. evil stories that have no component of romance. Love is really *supposed* to be the greatest good, right? Whether it be romantic love, maternal love (like Harry's mother), or brotherly love. So, really, love has a large role in the fight of good vs. evil in most literature. Fyre Wood: > > I can't see Harry falling in love with a girl and having a > relationship. (Perhaps it's the Draco/Harry shipper in me?) But > realistically, anything/anyone he loves always gets hurt. He can't > afford to not only try to protect himself, but also try to protect > another loved one. He's lost a lot already--and losing another loved > one would probably tear him to shreds. Now, I think everyone has a weak spot in there hearts for the Harry/Draco ship *mushy sigh*... But, are you suggesting that Hermione isn't a loved one already? You think he'd be more devastated by her death if they happened to be dating at the time? That he'd be more inclined to rescue her if she was boofing him? Even Ginny, who arguably might not have Harry's love, is still important enough to him to risk everything to save her (as demonstrated in CoS). They are all liabilities. He loves them all. And even the few he doesn't love -- he'd die for them anyway. And losing one of them *would* tear him to shreds. That's just the way it is. Look at Cedric -- Harry barely even *liked* him (sorry H/Ced shippers), and he's still torn up about "letting" him die. Fyre Wood: > He can't get romantically involved. IMO, he's going to die at the end > of the series, thus making any sort of attempt at a lasting romance > impossible. Being the pessimist that I am, I agree with you. But the suffering heroine mourning the fallen hero has always had a place in literature. I think she'll probably be Ginny. I wish she were Hermione, but JKR doesn't seem to agree with me. Frye Wood: > One thing is for sure: Don't mess with Harry, for when you do, you'll > only die. > (ie: Cedric took his girl to the dance, and he died... Lockhart tried > to kill Harry and he went insane.... Riddle tried to kill Harry and > he was killed... see my point?) VERY good point. ^_^ laura From psychomaverick at hotmail.com Mon Sep 30 19:21:44 2002 From: psychomaverick at hotmail.com (psychodudeneo) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 19:21:44 -0000 Subject: Non-wizards with magical talent / Voldemort's Compitence Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44714 I'm sure I'll get him NEXT time!". Take for example, the end scene of GoF. Voldemort makes what will probably turn out to be the greatest mistake of his career. He gives Harry a fighting chance. I'm sure the assembled Death Eaters were thinking the same thing I was. "Wow. What an idiot." This is similar to the way traditional villains capture the hero and place him in a cell somewhere with one inept guard to make sure they don't escape. It's blatant stupidity. Even Voldemort, megalomaniac that he is, should've thought: "Gee, this kid whooped my arse twice before. Maybe I shouldn't arm him and try to fight him again? Maybe I should just kill him now that I have him trapped?" And that's only if Voldy doesn't know about the CoS incident. Because then it gets ever worse for You-Know-Who, having been defeated thrice. I can only hope that Voldemort, at the climax of Book 5, doesn't give Harry his wand, a bazooka, some grenades, and a trained dragon while exclaiming to his minions: "I'll beat him this time, just WATCH!" No wonder all the DE's forsook him. From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Mon Sep 30 19:39:02 2002 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 19:39:02 -0000 Subject: Moaning Myrtle's house and Houses Mystery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44715 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Veronica" wrote: > > wrote: No, in fact I didn't ;-) > > > > The information about personality is offered to the student, who, > > if he or she has other priorities than learning as much magic as > > possible, can then use it to contest the Hat's choice. > > > > So Harry is offered Slytherin as the House where he would learn > > most, but has the option of rejecting it. > > I would have to disagree with that. My books are temporarily on loan > (you could say I'm spreading the word), so I can't double-check this, > but wasn't it Harry who brought up Slytherin in the first place, not > the hat? > Of course nicely, I am also a absolutely newbie :-). Well, but the hat told Harry, that he could be powerful in Slytherin. So it seemed to be a realistic choice. But in spite of this I agree with you. It is said, that the hat barely toched Draco's head, when he sorted him into Slytherin. So he wouldn't have enough time, to offer him another possibilitie. Hickengruendler From htfulcher at comcast.net Mon Sep 30 21:05:36 2002 From: htfulcher at comcast.net (marephraim) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 21:05:36 -0000 Subject: Request for opinions (and reasons to justify them) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44716 One of the more prevalent predictions in the OoP Predictions Derby is that the more oft noted beloved of Harry who will die in Book 5 is Ron (other top contender, Hagrid). As Ron has always been the more interesting and humourous character of the cast of principles I found this speculation most distressing. (It also seems to fly in the face of the discussions about the "trio" and how Ron and Hermione, as mates or sidekicks, support Harry in solving the mysteries.) Would any of those who believe that Ron will die in the next (or future) book(s) care to comment on why they think this is so? Also, has anyone picked up any evidence from canon or otherwise that would support this possibility? (Just wanting to prepare myself ahead of time if it really is likely to happen!) MarEprhaim From kristin at jesusphreaks.org Mon Sep 30 19:09:18 2002 From: kristin at jesusphreaks.org (Risti) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 19:09:18 -0000 Subject: Thoughts on SHIPS In-Reply-To: <39391374961.20020930115234@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44717 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Susanne wrote: > Using a love triangle to split up the trio would be one of > the ultimate cliches. > > And these ships seem to hinge so much on personal > preference. > > The poor author will be in hot water, no matter *which* way > she decides to go ;) Using a love triangle to split up the trio would be one of the ultimate cliches Having the hero get the girl is also cliche So is having the bickering friends turn into lovers So is having the main character fall for his best friend's little sister. So is friendship subconsciously turning into more. For D/H or G/H shippers, the Anne/Gilbert or Romeo/Juliet idea is also very cliche now. For that matter, so is throwing all idea of romance out the window because they are 'too young.' Romance and love work that way. We live in an age where so many stories have been discussed and analyzed that we have a label for just about any path that a romantic relationship could develop upon. That doesn't stop each story from being completely original and new to the people involved. (I know, bring out the sappy violin music and the corn.) As Susanne said, no matter what JKR does, someone is going to decide they don't like it because it's been 'done before.' The point of good, creative writing isn't to come up with a whole new way for human nature to work. It's to take the understood laws of human interaction and place them into a new setting. That's what the appeal of the Harry Potter series is. Strip away the magic and the strange creatures and the charicaturized people, and all your left with is a boy who in many ways is just like you. ~Risti From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Mon Sep 30 21:11:08 2002 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (=?iso-8859-1?q?Iris=20FT?=) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 23:11:08 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Independence, power and loneliness In-Reply-To: <20020930160120.64681.qmail@web20809.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20020930211108.73489.qmail@web21506.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44718 Anne wrote: ?Finally, to take things just one step further, I sincerely hope that Harry does continue to work _with_ these other wonderful characters. I would hate it if Harry turned out to be a "god" among wizards and too high above any of them. I _want_ to see the strengths of Ron, Hermione, Lupin, Sirius, and especially NEVILLE combined with Harry's to defeat Voldemort.? I agree with you. It would not be very interesting if Harry ?turned to be a god among wizards and too high above any of them?. First, it would not be an original ending. It would remind too much the destiny of characters like Luke Skywalker or more especially Paul Atreides (I don?t remember who wrote about a parallelism between Harry and the Kwizatz Haderach). As the keeper of a power no one else has, Paul is doomed to loneliness. The Dune series is, actually, a reflection about power, and an illustration of the idea according to which power is always synonym of loneliness. Putting Harry in a situation of ?god among the wizards? would imply giving him absolute power. I sincerely don?t believe JKR?s project is making him the forthcoming Minister of Magic, the ?Wizard of the Wizards?, even if the way she writes his adventures reminds the classical schema of ?the hidden prince? or ?the hidden heir?, so would mean he?s got a strong relationship with power. It is obvious that the boy has powers no one else has, just like Paul Atreides, that he has a mission too, but I don?t think this implies that will have to rule the WW, for a reason or another, at the end of the series. Those books deserve a more original conclusion. The second reason why Harry probably won?t turn out to be a ?god? or a ?wizarding Kwizatz Haderach? is he would become at the time a new Voldemort. The Dark Lord?s behaviour is despotic, and as a despot, he considers himself as a kind of a god. The Death Eaters bow low before him as if he were an idol; he can decide who is to live and who is to die, who is to be rewarded and who is to be punished, just as if he were a god making a final judgement. This has to be taken as a representation of a dictatorial behaviour, which combines absolute power and personality worship. I don?t think Harry has any predisposition for that. He doesn?t take advantage of his own celebrity, doesn?t boast he defeated Voldemort. He remains humble and reserved. This is probably the result of eleven years at the Dursleys. Moreover, even if the Sorting Hat said about him ?I see a nice thirst to prove yourself?, Harry never tries to outclass the other kids, this is not his purpose. He doesn?t think he?s the best among Hogwarts students. He just wants to be one of them, and no more. He felt too lonely during eleven years to make anything that would put him apart. He needs friends, to be with them, not to rule them. He?s very different on this point from Draco Malfoy, who doesn?t accept Hermione to be have better marks than him, who is ready to buy his playing in Slytherin quidditch team, and who considers Crabbe and Goyle are here to bring him out. If Draco were in Harry?s shoes, he surely wouldn?t be reserved and would tell everyone about his own achievements. Harry is not proud of himself, and that?s what preserves him. Nevertheless, we can?t dismiss the possibility of Harry being tempted by power. JKR seems to give us some clues about this possible orientation in GoF, when she shows Harry fantasying. He imagines he plays the Quidditch Wolrd Cup, wins the Triwizard Tournament and deserves admiration and honours. These are merely teen fantasies, but they imply a possible future thirst for power and fame. Moreover, it seems that this is one of JKR?s questioning, for it appears several times in the series. We can for example consider Gilderoy Lockhart and Crouch Sr as two representations of the thirst for power and fame, and of the perversions it can cause. Lockhart is ready to every kind of meanness, even to attack two kids, to be famous,then powerful. As to Crouch Sr, Sirius Black explains clearly he went to become worst than Voldemort himself when he was fighting the Dark Side: he fought evil with evil weapons, and didn?t hesitate to turn himself in a kind of a dictator, who was able to send a man to Azkaban without a trial. IMO there are few possibilities that Harry would become a second Lockhart, for he doesn?t have a clear pretension to fame. However, he could be tempted with power just like Crouch, he could believe there?s no other way of fighting the Dark Lord. Will he perform the Unforgivable Charms? Will he answer hatred with hatred? Will he lose himself to save the others? Will love go on protecting him until the end of the story? Well I don?t know. Neither do my potterfans? friends. Most of the ladies hope Harry won?t die. So, do I. Iris --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en fran?ais ! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From melclaros at yahoo.com Mon Sep 30 21:34:28 2002 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 21:34:28 -0000 Subject: Snape's office sealed? (short) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44719 > > bboy_mn comments: > > > > When Hermione stole supplies, they were from the supply stores in > the > > classroom. Other references to Snapes office haven't given me the > > impression that it is in or near the potions classroom. Well, it's > > certainly in the dungeon, but I get no indication that it is > attached > > to the potions classroom. > > > > So I don't think Hermione stole supplies from Snape's private > office, > > but from his private supplies cuboard/room in the classroom. > > Hello, I'm new but may I step in? Didn't she steal from his office during the day? He seals his office at night. It would be an awful pain in the wand to have to keep sealing and unsealing one's office all day long! "melclaros" From sydenmill at msn.com Mon Sep 30 22:00:02 2002 From: sydenmill at msn.com (bohcoo) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 22:00:02 -0000 Subject: End of Harry Potter Series Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44720 It struck me as I reread the books that Rowling has been foreshadowing the ending of the Harry Potter series all the way through the books: Unfortunately, I think she is going to have Harry awake from a dream, at the age of 17 or 18, living with the Dursleys - - with a thought that he had just had some incredible, fantastic dream. And then he will set about his life, as an ordinary person. That way, we won't have to wonder what happened to everyone throughout the years to come, and so on. (Example reference: Chamber of Secrets, Chapter One, page 8, hardback edition: "What wouldn't he give now for a message from Hogwarts? >From any witch or wizard? He'd almost be glad of a sight of his arch- enemy, Draco Malfoy, just to be sure it hadn't all been a dream...") There are numerous references like that throughout the books about this just being a dream, that was only a dream, Harry expecting to wake and find he had only dreamed this or that had happened, etc. It would be a tidy way to end the series -- but I hope I am wrong, don't you? "bohcoo"