[HPforGrownups] Wizarding culture/ attitude to arms

[Carol Bainbridge]

No: HPFGUIDX 43496

MariaJ wrote:

><snip>
>Here in Sweden most schools have some sort of plan about how to deal
>with bullying (I even think there's to be a law that they have to have such
>a plan, but I'm not entirely sure). Whether these plans actually work is an
>entirely different matter <snip>, but at least these
>plans exist.

If schools in Sweden *have* to have a plan, then they're farther ahead than 
we are, whether the plans work or not.  Here in America, concern about 
bullying has increased in the last decade because of the number of school 
shootings taking place.  In nearly every instance, the shooters were bright 
kids who had been bullied.  In response to these events, many schools did 
institute programs to help curb bullying, but the attitudes toward bullying 
remain basically the same.  For instance, instead of actually doing 
something about the bullies, my son's middle school calls in the parents of 
the bulliED children to get them counseling they might need to cope with 
the bullying!  The fear is that the bullied kids won't be able to cope and 
will go on a shooting rampage.  They do also attempt to punish the bullies, 
but it usually amounts to the kind of punishment one would imagine Snape 
giving to Malfoy for bullying Neville.  In other words, whatever plans do 
exist are there because of a fear that the bullied kids will go 
berserk.  Some of them are actually well meaning, but it all comes down to 
the same thing -- bullying itself is not considered a serious enough problem.

MariaJ added:

><snip> It's just
>that, even those bone-headed principals admitted that bullying existed (they
>just didn't want to admit it existed at their school), but I'm not so sure
>even Dumbledore, that most enlightened of muggle-lovers (no sarcasm
>intended), would see the need for A Plan Against Bullying.

I'm not so sure about that either.  JKR allows us to see only what she 
wants us to see about Hogwarts and the wizard world.  The rest we have to 
guess at based on what else goes on there.  If we think about Moody turning 
Malfoy into a ferret (one of my very favorite scenes!), we know that Moody, 
for one, does not like bullying.  When McGonagall comes along to stop it, 
she says "We give detentions," which indicates to me that if a student is 
caught misbehaving, including bullying, he or she is given detention.  The 
problem with many bullies, like Malfoy, is that they don't engage in 
bullying behavior when someone is around who they believe can punish 
them.  Malfoy certainly doesn't care too much when Snape is around because 
he knows he can get away with a lot; the same is true about Hagrid, 
although for different reasons. But he is pretty careful around the other 
teachers.  Moody caught him off-guard.  Other than that, I think there's a 
limit to what details JKR needs to include in her books.  The subject of 
the books, after all, isn't school behavior or bullying; it's more about 
coming of age and the battle between good and evil (in us and in the 
world).  If Malfoy was dealt with appropriately for his bullying, I think 
something would be missing from the stories.

MariaJ again:

>The realisation that something is wrong doesn't in any way make it all
>better (if it did there would be no bullying at Swedish schools), but it's
>better than nothing. It's the first step. What I'm trying to say (and I'm
>not sure I'm succeeding) is that I'm not sure the wizarding world has taken
>that first step, and actually the bullying is a small problem compared with
>the House Elfs, the Justice System, the attitude towards muggles etc, and
>they don't seem to see anything wrong with that.

But I think this is the point -- to reflect the wrongs of Muggle societies 
in the wizard society.  I think JKR means to make us pretty darn 
uncomfortable with all these wrongs.

MariaJ added:

><snip>There's a lot of problems that are the same in
>both worlds, but the extent to which those problems are recognised as
>problems differ a lot. Imho.

Yes, and if all the problems were recognized and handled in ways that would 
make most of us happy, there wouldn't be much of a story left.  Clearly, 
the wizards are rather behind the Muggles in their thinking about 
slavery.  The Muggles justify house-elf slavery by saying that the house 
elves aren't human and they LIKE being slaves.  It's rather like the 
justification used for slavery in the 18th and 19th centuries.  It makes 
one think about what makes a person a good, decent person too.  Is it 
Hermione, who sees the house-elves as slaves, who need to be set free?  She 
wasn't raised in the wizard culture, so it's not that hard for her.  What 
about Ron?  Is Ron a bad person because he thinks house elves like being 
slaves?  What about Harry?  He wasn't raised in the wizard world, but 
doesn't share Hermione's passion for freeing the house elves.  It doesn't 
help, either, that Winky cries and cries because she was dismissed by her 
master or that the house elves in the Hogwarts kitchen disapprove of Dobby, 
who is free and likes his freedom.  It seems as though Ron and the other 
wizards are right -- the house elves do like being slaves.  Even Dobby 
doesn't seem to want too much.  So what exactly, according to the wizard 
world, makes the house elf situation a problem that needs to be 
recognized?  Perhaps it takes an outsider, like Hermione, to point out the 
problems.  And I think Dumbledore reacted quite admirably.

>MariaJ wrote:

>Let me be honest: if JKR had written PS/SS and CoS and then stopped writing
>I would have read them, laughed a lot, and that would have been it. It's
>when I read PoA and especially GoF, when she started to dig below the
>surface, show us the rest of the society, introduce us to the injustices and
>wrongs of the WW, that I decided that JKR was a much better author than I
>had given her credit for after reading the first two books. She makes me
>happy and sad and angry and uncomfortable and occasionally full of warm,
>fuzzy feelings that I can't put a name to (aaah, Harry is going to live with
>Sirius, how sweet) - all at the same time. That, in my opinion, is what
>makes her great.

I couldn't agree more.  JKR has quite a knack for writing what appears to 
be a pretty simple story with an awful lot underneath.  The only other 
writer I can think of off-hand who was able to do this to perfection is 
Mark Twain.  Even today many people don't recognize the underlying 
criticism of society in Huckleberry Finn.  It's the same sort of thing.  On 
the surface, the story is just a coming of age story in which an orphan boy 
has many great adventures while traveling on a raft on the Mississippi 
River.  It is way more than that though -- if you look for it.

>MariaJ:

>Let me go off on a different tangent: Voldemort is supposed to be this big
>threat, right? He's not out to destroy the world or anything like that, but
>he does want to take over. Or something. I have to admit I'm a bit hazy on
>what Voldemort actually wants, except kill Harry, harass muggles and, eh,
>humiliate his Death Eaters. Now, if his objective really is to take over the
>world (i.e. Britain) then sooner or later muggles will become aware of this.
>It's not as if the Good Guys can run around making Memory Charms on everyone
>who's seen something, then they won't have any time to actually fight
>against Voldemort, which has to be the top priority after all.

You know, this is really interesting and it's something that I've wondered 
about briefly every so often as I'm rereading one of the books.  What DOES 
Voldemort want?  It is clear he wants to take over, but I usually just 
vaguely imagine he wants to take over the wizard world.  I wonder, 
though.  Maybe he does want total control, but first he needs to control 
the wizard world.  But whatever would he do with the Muggle world?  Use us 
for his entertainment?  Slaves?  Experiments?  I would think that if it's 
total domination Voldemort wants, he wouldn't have any problem beating the 
Muggles into submission once he had conquered the wizard world.  Maybe I 
don't have a vivid enough imagination, but I can't envision what Muggles 
could do to beat powerful dark wizards, when the wizards themselves were 
nearly beaten.  It was only Harry that stopped Voldemort, after all.

MariaJ:
>Of course, it all depends on what Voldemort actually wants. Or rather, how
>far JKR is going to let it go. She may write Voldemort as if he wants to
>take over the world, that doesn't mean it's ever going to be an outright
>war, but only skirmishes between wizards and a final duel between Voldemort
>and Harry. Then muggles would never have to find out.
>
>See how nicely I destroy my own arguments. :)

Excellent talent to have!  I actually think you brought up an interesting 
issue about Voldemort's goals.


Carol Bainbridge
(kaityf at jorsm.com)

http://www.lcag.org