[HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius Black-What a Guy!

[Carol Bainbridge]

No: HPFGUIDX 44274

Carol (moi) said:

>Again, I agree that Sirius offer to take Harry in is based more on moral
>obligation.  There is a genuine warmth in that offer.  It may be because he
>sees James in Harry, but I think it's more than that.  I think he not only
>loves Harry, but likes him and respects him as well.  I guess what I'm
>trying to say is that while Sirius might see James in Harry, he can also
>recognize Harry as a good person in his own right.  His desire, not just to
>take Harry in, but to create a family life with him, is something I found
>very touching.


>Marina answered:
>
>I don't know about that.  I mean, I love Sirius, and I think his
>attempts to act as a father figure for Harry in GoF are admirable and
>touching, but at the time he makes his offer to Harry in PoA, he and
>Harry barely know each other.  They've only just met, and there hasn't
>exactly been time for a heart-to-heart session.

Apologies for making it sound as though Harry and Sirius have created a 
deep bond.  I didn't mean that.  I do think it's possible to love someone 
without having gotten to know them terribly well.  Now we could debate on 
whether that is true love, but that gets beyond the point.  The point I 
wanted to make is that Serius has developed some strong feelings for Harry 
and Harry for Serius.  I think they see each other as a way of fullfilling 
deep needs.  But more than that, each sees positive qualities in the 
other.  Imagine if Harry was more like Draco.  I don't think the offer for 
a home would have been quite the same.  I think the two genuinely like each 
other, but the connection is stronger than a simple liking.  That strength 
may come from the outside -- need for redemption, need for homelife, need 
to connect to parents, etc. -- but it's still more than simple 
liking.  It's what made me agree that Serius loves Harry.  I think he does 
on one level, even if he's only just met him.

Marina again:
>Harry knows Sirius is
>innocent, and Sirius knows that Harry is brave and decent, and that's
>pretty much it.  At that time, I think Sirius couldn't love Harry as
>person in his own right, because Sirius didn't *know* Harry as a
>person in his own right.

I disagree slightly with this.  I think they both had a chance to see the 
basic qualities of the other.  Serius has certainly had a chance to watch 
Harry, if not interact with him.  Harry had a chance to learn why Serius 
was behaving the way he was and learned a great deal about his loyalty and 
depth of friendship with his parents.  He also learned about his passionate 
side and his softer side.  Of course, all of this could be a mere front (I 
doubt it, but it's possible).  However, that in no way detracts from the 
attraction the two had for each other and what they were able to see of one 
another.  I think what you see of someone under dangerous, emotionally 
tense circumstances can tell you a great deal more about that person than 
what you'd see under normal, every day circumstances.

More Marina:
>So what motivated Sirius' offer?  I think Sirius saw Harry as his
>chance at redemption.  Sirius holds himself responsible for Harry's
>being an orphan, and for not being around to take care of him the way
>a proper godfather should.  Now he has a chance to make up for it, to
>fix his past failure.  And from Harry's point of view -- he's
>desperate for a father figure, desperate to get away from the
>Dursleys, and desperate for any connection to James.  So it's
>perfectly understandable that he and Sirius instantly glom on to each
>other, but I think it was a connection based on each person's
>emotional needs and symbolic meaning to each other, rather than a real
>relationship.  The relationship developed later.

I agree with part of this, but also disagree in part.  I do think their 
relationship developed later, but I don't think that the offer and the 
acceptance were based exclusively on the terms outlined above.  I would 
agree that those things contributed, but weren't the sole motivations.  If 
these were the only motivations, we wouldn't see the same kind of joy and 
tenderness apparent in that scene.  I think the two genuinely already care 
about each other, even if it is at a relatively superficial level.  I think 
the motivations provided by Marina are a part of it, but it's the part that 
makes the offer and the acceptance so poignant.

Carol Bainbridge
(kaityf at jorsm.com)

http://www.lcag.org