Crouch Jr. and Veritaserum (WAS: On Trial)

[lucky_kari]

No: HPFGUIDX 44701

Hail Eric Oppen of "Frank Longbottom was Judge Dredd on Acid!" fame!
(I treasure that post, do you know?)

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Eric Oppen" <oppen at m...> wrote:
> I can't find anything in the "trial scene" of Barty Crouch where he
> explicitly _says_ "I am not a Death Eater," or "I do not serve Lord
> Voldemort."  All he does is scream for mercy, appeal to his parents
> unsuccessfully, and say that he didn't do the particular crime he's been
> charged with---the torture of the Longbottoms.  _At no time_ does he
> explicitly deny serving Lord Voldemort.  He doesn't join in with "Mrs.
> Lestrange's" cool defiance of the court---a defiance for which I
cannot but
> admire her poise and courage---but he's only nineteen and this is
his first
> time through the mill, while "Mrs. Lestrange" (if that is who we saw
in that
> scene, _we don't know_) is mentioned as having "talked her way out of
> Azkaban" and can be said to know just what fate awaits her.
> 
> Personally, were I Lord Voldemort, I'd value live free associates
that could
> work my wicked will far more than I would excruciatingly loyal ones that
> would allow themselves to be sent to Azkaban rather than get out of
it by
> pretending to renounce me, if that was all it took to keep them free
and on
> my side.  But then, I am not an insane Dark Wizard/multiple murderer
with a
> yen for immortality and Absolute Power, no matter _what_ my online
friends
> say.

I've been thinking about this (especially in association with the "Is
Crouch Sr. an allegory of Stalin or just dead sexy?" discussion)and I
wonder if Voldemort really does value the Lestranges' non-renunciation
of him vs. Lucius Malfoy's renunciation. After all, the Lestranges
talked "themselves out of Azkaban" to quote Sirius, i.e. denounced
Voldemort the first time around. When Voldemort praised them above all
others, I think it's more likely that he was praising them for not
renouncing him in their actions. The Lestranges originally denounced
Voldemort as publicly as Lucius Malfoy. The difference is that the
Lestranges then started to work on getting Voldemort back and Lucius
Malfoy went to work on rebuilding his reputation. 

Is Mrs. Lestrange's defiance of Crouch Sr. what Voldemort is praising
her for when he talks about loyalty? No, I don't think so. That
was.... well, pretty cool, and I'm sure Voldemort enjoyed hearing
about it from Barty Jr. (who was a great actor and probably did a
stunning Mrs. Lestrange imitation), but I don't think it matters at
all. I wrote in my post the other day (Despiadao Denethor et al.) that
I don't think Mrs. Lestrange had much of a choice in how she pleaded. 

So, Barty Crouch Jr. is loyal because he tried to bring back
Voldemort. What he said in the courtroom doesn't matter in the least
to Voldemort, who in the case of the Lestranges (the first time
around) has already signalled that he approves of his followers
publicly denouncing him as a means to serving him.  

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Pat Mahony" <pat_mahony at h...> wrote:
> Eric Oppen wrote:
> I notice that Dumbledore, when they are about to
> >question Fake-Moody/Barty Crouch Jr., merely asks Professor Snape
to bring
> >"the strongest truth potion you have," not Veritaserum _eo nomine._
> 
> 
> This quote that Eric has pointed out is significant, because of the
use of 
> the word "strongest". This implies that there are different degrees
of truth 
> serum, which means that there mus be a "weaker" truth potion. If truth 
> potions come in different strengths, it might mean that they can be 
> resisted, like the Imperius Curse. What would be worse than a Death
Eater 
> you *think* is telling you truth, but actually isn't?

I desperately want canon to allow Veritaserum to be resisted under
certain circumstances. Otherwise, it seems too much of a cure-all. Is
there anything in its canon use on Crouch that might suggest
limitations (other than that it can only extract what the suspect
thinks to be true)?

Several people have expressed a wish to understand Crouch Jr.'s
behaviour. A tricky subject to say the least, but may I suggest taking
a look at Message 36223, which is imho the best analysis of Crouch Jr.
by this list's foremost fan of Crouch Jr.

Eileen