From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Tue Apr 1 00:26:07 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 00:26:07 -0000 Subject: FILK: The Quidditch Cup Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54616 The Quidditch Cup to the tune of "The Monster Mash" Scene: the Weasley family, along with Harry and Hermione, set out to attend the Quidditch Cup. ARTHUR: I have some extra tickets which I'm willing to share For a sporting event quite beyond compare. So gather 'round this Portkey and hold on tight, It's gonna be a heck of a night! BILL, CHARLIE and PERCY: We'll see the Cup! HARRY, RON and HERMIONE: We'll see the Quidditch Cup! BILL,CHARLIE and PERCY: The Quidditch Cup! HARRY,RON and HERMIONE: Our Seats are *so* high up! BILL, CHARLIE and PERCY: We thank our Pop For fun that doesn't stop, Here at the Cup! Here at the Quidditch Cup. LUDO BAGMAN: I'm Ludo Bagman, bow before my fame! I'm going to comment on tonight's big game. I've got some gold, I want to let it ride, Who wants to make a wager on the side? Who'll take my bet? FRED and GEORGE: We'll take your Quidditch bet! BAGMAN: My Quidditch bet! FRED and GEORGE: Some dough we hope to get. ARTHUR: Your Mum will fret, You know she'll be upset, Yet I will let You take this crazy bet. HARRY, RON and HERMIONE: We've never seen such an exciting match! They move so fast that we're afraid to watch. That Viktor Krum, he really is no slouch! Watch both Seekers dive and-- Ouch! BAGMAN: Krum did the Feint! RON: Krum did the Wronsky Feint! BAGMAN: The Wronsky Feint! RON: A piece of cake it ain't! BAGMAN: The ladies faint When he performs that Feint. RON: I've no complaint 'Bout seeing the Wronsky Feint. HARRY: Those Irish Chasers are the best I've seen, They move together like a fine machine. The Bulgarian team was going down in shame Till Krum put a stop to the game. FRED and GEORGE: He caught the Snitch! HARRY: Krum caught the Golden Snitch! FRED and GEORGE: The Golden Snitch! HARRY: An inch above the pitch! Without a hitch, Without the slightest glitch! FRED and GEORGE: We'll now be rich, 'Cos Viktor caught the Snitch! Marina rusalka at ix.netcomd.com From siriuskase at earthlink.net Tue Apr 1 02:17:21 2003 From: siriuskase at earthlink.net (siriuskase) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 02:17:21 -0000 Subject: ....what I SHOULD have told you.... In-Reply-To: <004801c2f5fd$899d17a0$d63c8351@j0dhe> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54619 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hollydaze" wrote: > grace701 wrote: > > > After reading this for the umpteenth time it sounds like Dumbledore > > > is regretting not telling Harry something and I'm that impression > > > from where he says "I should have told you". As though, something > > > has just happened that could have been prevented. Is it just me > > > that has read it this way? > Yeah, I read it that way. I think that Harry's tendency to jump into dangerous situations with limited information has been much stronger than Dumbledore anticipated. Besides, a lot has changed since the beginning of the series. This is just another example of Dumbledore not being the great omniscient fellow Harry and some of the groupies would like for him to be. > > Devika wrote: > > > There is one thing that Harry wanted to know in PS/SS that Dumbledore > > refused to tell him at that time. Voldemort had told Harry that he > > only killed Lily because she had tried to prevent him from killing > > Harry. In the hospital wing at the end of the book, Harry asked > > Dumbledore why Voldemort would want to kill him (Harry) in the first > > place. Dumbledore said something like, "Alas, the first question > > you ask, I cannot answer...someday, when you are ready, you will > > know." (Sorry for the inexact quote; PS/SS is the only book I don't > > have with me) > > > > It seems like Dumbledore might be regretting not telling Harry why > > Voldemort wanted to kill him in the first place fourteen years ago. > > It would make sense, since this is a question that Harry asked > > Dumbledore directly and that Dumbledore directly refused to answer-- > > until Harry was ready. Surely, Harry is ready to know now. > > Your very close to the exact quote actually, it's: > "Alas, the first thing you ask me, I cannot tell you. Not today. Not now. You will know one day... put it from your mind for now, Harry. When you are older... I know you hate to hear this... when you are ready, you will know". I can interpret this statement differently, either he doesn't know or he can't for some kind of privacy reason. He would violate someone's trust. It isn't simply that he doesn't want to. > > There is a third reason but it is not to do with the structuring. I see this question about why Voldemort wanted to kill Harry as one of a few questions central to the plot, it is one of a few questions that run through all of the books. While most questions revolve around only a few books, e.g. (PoA) Why is Sirius after Harry? -one book- or (GoF) What is Snape doing over the summer? -to be resolved (probably) in OoP or book 6- this, "why would he want to kill me in the first place?" question is one of the questions that drives the entire story, it's one of the reasons we keep reading and so I don't think it will be answered this early in the series, it feels to me like something that will be resolved nearer the end, most likely the middle to end of book 7. Much as it is driving me mad wanting to know why V was after Harry, I think I might end up a little disappointed if it was resolved in book 5, unless knowing this piece of information plays a VERY vital role in other events in books 5, 6 and 7. It wouldn't necessarily screw things up to reveal the answer (or partial anser) to this question this "early". Once it is out in the open how we all came to be in this predicament, it could still take 3 books to figure out what to do about it. I don't think that the story revolves around this one question. Revealing the answer might not resolve the problem, it may just change relationships between Harry and Dumbledore or do something else that would set the tone for the next phase of Harry's battle with evil. > > HOLLYDAZE > (Who is very glad that someone has re-awoken her ability to think about all things HP as she has been suffering from what another person on the list called "analysing block" Why would you be glad? don't you find all this HP stuff seriously destractinng of your real life? sirius kase From blackgold101 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 1 02:03:09 2003 From: blackgold101 at yahoo.com (Marci) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 02:03:09 -0000 Subject: Filch vs. House Elves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54620 "grindieloe" wrote: I was just listening to CoS again, and I came to the part where Harry gets in trouble for slopping mud all over the floor as a result of Quidditch practice. This is when he finds out that Filch is a squib, and Harry gets invited to Nick's Death-Day Party. Anyway, I believe that Filch is so angry with Harry because he doesn't feel good and he now has to scrub the floors for an extra hour. My question is... what about the House Elves? Aren't they the ones that wander the castle making sure things are clean? Aside from keeping an eye on students, is cleaning one of Filch's main jobs? If so, why? You'd think that the hundred or so house elves would be able to handle the castle... even with the extra mud! >I am re-reading CoS, came to this part, and wondered that too. But thinking about the house elves, seems like their main function is food, taking the kids' belongings to their rooms, possibly laundry. Some cleaning as well, but maybe they come out after a certain hour, so not to be seen. Marci From maidne at yahoo.com Tue Apr 1 03:00:35 2003 From: maidne at yahoo.com (maidne) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 03:00:35 -0000 Subject: Harry and the Dursleys Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54621 In SS, when Vernon and Petunia don't want to leave Harry home alone because they might come back and find the house blown up, I always assumed that they thought HARRY would be the one who would blow it up. I'm sure that's what Harry thought, too. But yesterday it suddenly occurred to me that they were afraid of VOLDEMORT coming around and blowing up the house, if Harry was in it alone. Same with the car. After all, they knew that James and Lily (and their house) were blown up. Anyway, that made me think that maybe it isn't really Number 4 Privet Drive that's the protection, but physically being with his relatives that keeps Harry safe. OK, everyone but me probably already knew that. I'll go back to lurking now. :) Susan From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Tue Apr 1 03:34:57 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 19:34:57 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Filch vs. House Elves References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54622 Grindieloe: I believe that Filch is so angry with Harry because he doesn't feel good and he now has to scrub the floors for an extra hour. My question is... what about the House Elves? Moi: I'm sure the HE's could clean up the mud, but would Filch pass up the chance to punish a student? Especially a popular wizard like Harry? If I were as embittered about magic as Filch, I'd probably do the same thing... -Danger Mouse [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From grace701 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 1 03:55:50 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 03:55:50 -0000 Subject: Whose prophecy? (was Re: Why Harry?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54623 Catherine wrote: >It's possible you are right, but this line in PoA, gave me pause for >thought, and convinced me that it was something about the Potters >themselves, which would not include Lily: >The Shrieking Shack - a couple of quotes from Sirius: >"It must have been the finest moment of your miserable life, telling >Voldemort you could hand him the Potters." >and later: >"...ready to strike the moment he could be sure of allies...to >deliver the last of the Potters to them." > The last of the Potters - persuasive, if not conclusive. Hmm....This sounds like Voldemort killed the rest of the Potters and the only ones left where James, Lily and Harry, thus making it sound like Wormtail would have delivered to Voldemort the LAST OF THE POTTERS. Am I reading into these books, again? Please tell me I'm not because I find it interesting (and sad, of course) that Voldemort not only killed his mom and dad, but the rest of his Potter-side family. Maybe the Evans were murdered by Voldemort as well, they could have been with the Potter grandparents, making it being at the wrong place, at the wrong time. Greicy From urbana at charter.net Tue Apr 1 04:49:09 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 04:49:09 -0000 Subject: Filch vs. House Elves and Extracurriculars In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54624 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Marci" wrote: > thinking about the house elves, seems like their main function is > food, taking the kids' belongings to their rooms, possibly laundry. > Some cleaning as well, but maybe they come out after a certain hour, > so not to be seen. > It would appear (or not, since they are rarely seen) that the house- elves do a lot of their work while the kids are in class. The kids leave their dorms at (I'm guessing) 7:30 or so for breakfast, and then might not return until 3:00 - 4:00 p.m. at the earliest. The house-elves would have plenty of time (IMO) during those hours to handle all the laundry, cleaning of rooms etc. Though I'd bet, unlike the custodial staff at hotels, they don't wander around with pushcarts full of dirty laundry, cleaning supplies etc :-) Anne U (wondering whether/how SPEW might progress in OoP) From kkearney at students.miami.edu Tue Apr 1 05:03:51 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 05:03:51 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Humpty-Dumptying the Bangs (or not) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54625 In a shadowy corner of the Royal George, a newcomer watches in fascination and confusion as theories fly around her. She wanders slowly around, trying to look confident and nonchalant, but failing. Several crumpled maps of the Bay are stuffed in her pockets, marked with nearly illegible notes in various scripts. Her attention is suddenly drawn toward two people standing in a secluded corner, staring expectantly at a bizarre device. Suddenly, after emitting a series of strange sounds, it spits out a small strip of paper. Abigail tears it off and reads: "DIMINISHING CAPACITY: Death In Massive Increments Negates Its Supposed Horror - EveryDay Corpses And Perpetual Atrocities Cause Indifference To amplifY" "It fudged it a bit at the end." Derannimer points out. "Well, this is only a beta version." Abigail says sadly. "If you've got something better I'll be glad to hear it." "No, I suppose this will do." "Excuse me," the newcomer says in a small voice, walking closer to the two. Apparently not hearing the timid voice, Abigail and Derannimer begin to argue over who should take the new acronym to the Captain. "I'm sorry, can I interrupt?" the stranger says, louder this time. Abigail and Derannimer turn to stare at her. "Hello," she says, smiling a bit more confidently now. "I've been wandering around this place, trying to get my bearings, and I couldn't help overhearing. I'm Corinth, by the way. I was wondering if I might add a suggestion to that acronym. Perhaps making it plural would help the ending. "DIMINISHED CAPACITIES: Death In Massive Increments Negates Its Supposed Horror - EveryDay Corpses And Perpetual Atrocities Create Indifference Toward Empty Sacrifices. "Just a suggestion." -------------------------------------------------- -Corinth, making a not-so-grand entrace into the Bay :) From mdemeran at hotmail.com Tue Apr 1 05:07:27 2003 From: mdemeran at hotmail.com (Meg Demeranville) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 23:07:27 -0600 Subject: FILK: The Gryffindors (A Fight Song) Message-ID: <009f01c2f80c$970469a0$6501a8c0@MFD> No: HPFGUIDX 54626 The Gryffindors to the tune of Grand Ole Flag Scene: Celebrating another victory over Slytherin on the Quidditch pitch, the Gryffindors head to their common room for the party. Fred and George start chanting as they walk up the hill towards the school. We're the Gryffindors We're all courageous and brave We're the house with the most on the ball >From our cozy red tower to our scarves of gold We're always tops over all Everyone stands tall to the gold lion's call We're the best house anywhere Though other houses may fade away The Gryffindors are here to stay. Salute! They continue to chant as they get closer to the building, ignoring the grumpy faces of the Slytherins as they pass. --Meg (who really needs to go to bed) Read the untold story of life as a first year medical student at: As The Scalpel Turns - http://www.livejournal.com/users/megd/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Tue Apr 1 05:08:43 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 00:08:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: TBAY Humpty-Dumptying the Bangs (or not) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030401050843.72313.qmail@web20422.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54627 Abigail and Derannimer are holding a private conference in the corner of the Royal George when suddenly the door smashes down. They jump, and then draw a huge breath of relief. It is only Eileen at the door. But a very different Eileen, an Eileen with a long black cloak, with wand out and at the ready an Eileen with jackboots. "All right! Put your hands up! I'm bringing you in for treason!" "Treason?" asks Abigail. "Insinuating that there's such a thing as too many bloody ambushes!" says Eileen. "Treason to the Big Bang Manifesto! "Is that treason? I don't think it's treason. I think we can be reasonable Big Bangers without..." "Would you get a move on, or do I have to give you a dose of Cruciatus?" Cindy smirks, leaning back at the bar counter. "Errr... do I get a trial to explain my position?" asks Abigail. Cindy thinks about this. "Hmmmm.... no. I'll decide the case myself, and then it's off to Azkaban. Prisoner, sit down." Cindy jumps up on the counter. "Ladies and Gentlemen, this foul supporter of the Steady State Theory..." "I don't support Steady State!" cries Abigail. "I say you do," says Cindy, "And have I not given throughout my career many proofs that I detest Steady State theories and those who advocate them?" "You're humpty-dumptying the court procedure!" screams Abigail. "Take her away," says Cindy curtly. A few minutes later, the floor of the Royal George, Cindy and Eileen celebrate a day's work well done over drinks. "Who should we go after next?" asks Cindy. "I've heard they have a nice ping-pong table over at the Safe House," says Eileen pensively. "The Safe House is rather into bloody scenarios, though," says Cindy. "I don't know whether it would be politically expedient... errr... whether it would be good for the general safety of the Bay." "Strike hard," says Eileen. "We must make them fear us." She downs her whiskey. "By the way, Captain, do you think there can ever be too much carnage?" "Theoretically, I suppose it's possible," says Cindy, "but really, do you really think we're looking at that. The problem ahead will be that JKR will be too sparing with her carnage. Look at her track record. All those people miraculously spared in CoS. That grand finale was a bit goofy, if you ask me. And in GoF, the great and painful death turned out to be Cedric Diggory. The series needs blood and carnage, to be taken seriously, and we FEATHERBOAS are just acknowledging the fact. She runs no danger of desensitizing us to death, as it stands right now." "But Abigail seemed to think that we had too many deaths planned out." "We need to be prepared for everything," says Cindy. "Look, I've predicted that Hagrid will kill his mother, and that his mother will kill Hagrid. These are both just possibilities. Both can't happen simultaneously. Though I suppose they could wound each other so badly that they died slowly of blood loss... while Harry watches on, bound to a rock. But the only certainty is Hermione will die in Book V." "I'm not proposing too many deaths," says Eileen thoughtfully. "I only think Lupin will die. And Dumbledore. And Hagrid. And possibly Snape. And definitely Percy. And Voldemort. And Lucius Malfoy. And Peter Pettigrew. And Mrs. Lestrange. And Fudge will get his soul sucked out by a dementor. And sundry other deaths. That's not too much for three more books, surely? Come on, who doesn't subscribe to those last five fates?" "Why don't we go around and see?" asks Cindy, grinning. I'll buy you a drink if you can dispose of a supporter of the Steady State theory in less than a minute." Eileen, with apologies to the memories of Barty Crouch Sr. and Frank Longbottom ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From rosethorn1313 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 1 01:54:03 2003 From: rosethorn1313 at yahoo.com (Jenny Hendricks) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 17:54:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Filch vs. House Elves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030401015403.67308.qmail@web14502.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54628 I think that there's a custom in the wizarding world to give squibs jobs that could be filled by house-elves or just done by magic (note that "no magic" is a requirement during detention). The wet halls may be Filch's "job", that he needs to do no matter how many house-elves there are. grindieloe wrote:I was just listening to CoS again, and I came to the part where Harry gets in trouble for slopping mud all over the floor as a result of Quidditch practice. This is when he finds out that Filch is a squib, and Harry gets invited to Nick's Death-Day Party. Anyway, I believe that Filch is so angry with Harry because he doesn't feel good and he now has to scrub the floors for an extra hour. My question is... what about the House Elves? Aren't they the ones that wander the castle making sure things are clean? Aside from keeping an eye on students, is cleaning one of Filch's main jobs? If so, why? You'd think that the hundred or so house elves would be able to handle the castle... even with the extra mud! Sorry if this has been discussed or covered before, but it just occurred to me today. grindieloe Yahoo! 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Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From burgess at cynjut.net Tue Apr 1 04:23:20 2003 From: burgess at cynjut.net (David Burgess) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 22:23:20 -0600 (CST) Subject: Whose prophecy? (was Re: Why Harry?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1214.192.168.3.45.1049171000.squirrel@www.cynjut.net> No: HPFGUIDX 54629 > Catherine wrote: >> It's possible you are right, but this line in PoA, gave me pause for >> thought, and convinced me that it was something about the Potters >> themselves, which would not include Lily: > [elided] >> ...ready to strike the moment he could be sure of allies...to >> deliver the last of the Potters to them." > >> The last of the Potters - persuasive, if not conclusive. > > > Hmm....This sounds like Voldemort killed the rest of the Potters and > the only ones left where James, Lily and Harry, thus making it sound > like Wormtail would have delivered to Voldemort the LAST OF THE > POTTERS. Am I reading into these books, again? Please tell > me I'm not because I find it interesting (and sad, of course) that > Voldemort not only killed his mom and dad, but the rest of his > Potter-side > family. Maybe the Evans were murdered by Voldemort as well, they > could have been with the Potter grandparents, making it being at the > wrong place, at the wrong time. > I've been wondering about this ever since the first time I read that passage. That all of Harry's grandparents are gone, as are any aunts or uncles on his father's side of the family. In fact, I've had a thought that Voldemort could have murdered the Evans', which is why Petunia hates Harry so badly. In SS/PS, Petunia is clearly more cruel that mere inconvenience would warrant. Vernon doesn't seem to care much one way or the other - sure, he'd rather Harry wasn't there, but other than that he's just a bother. If Petunia's parent were killed right before Lily and James, then clearly this would be a source of bitter resentment that would fester into the kind of clear neo-masocism that Petunia seems to exhibit. -- Dave Burgess From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Tue Apr 1 05:18:32 2003 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 05:18:32 -0000 Subject: Harry and the Dursleys Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54630 Susan wrote: I always assumed that they thought HARRY would be the one who would blow it up. I'm sure that's what Harry thought, too. But yesterday it suddenly occurred to me that they were afraid of VOLDEMORT coming around and blowing up the house, if Harry was in it alone. Me: I think you're on to something. I don't know if the Dursleys are making the actual leap, but I think at least Vernon doesn't really distinquish between a good witch and a bad witch. (Maybe he needs to watch The Wizard of Oz...) If Petunia is a Squib, she should know better, but then they always seem to take the attitude that magic is dangerous and unnatural. Maybe all they know for sure is: Sister is witch. Sister marries wizard. Sister gets killed and her house gets blown up. Maybe they think *any* witch or wizard might blast apart their house at any time, and they don't want to leave Harry in a position where another wizard might come try. (The Weasley-Floo Powder explosion was pretty funny though...) I wonder what Lily and Petunia's relationship was like before L was accepted to Hogwarts. Were they close, or has P always been jealous (and IMHO she *is* jealous, squib or not) of L? Is that why she spoils Dudley so much? Is she rewarding him for turning out "normal" and trying to make up for attentions she never got? Another thing: why *didn't* the Dursley's turn Harry over to an orphanage? I sure would like a peek at the letter Dumbledore wrote them. What could he possibly say that would have compelled them to keep him? And why would they keep him if they never intended to even try to love him? Susan also indicated that perhaps some of Harry's power of secrecy is in the company of his relatives. Does anyone have any ideas as to how this would work? I like the idea, but I can't see them agreeing to be his secret keepers or anything. Imamommy From mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com Tue Apr 1 05:30:12 2003 From: mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com (mlle_bienvenu) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 05:30:12 -0000 Subject: Harry and the Dursleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54631 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "maidne" wrote: > In SS, when Vernon and Petunia don't want to leave Harry home alone > because they might come back and find the house blown up, I always > assumed that they thought HARRY would be the one who would blow it > up. I'm sure that's what Harry thought, too. But yesterday it > suddenly occurred to me that they were afraid of VOLDEMORT coming > around and blowing up the house, if Harry was in it alone. Same with > the car. After all, they knew that James and Lily (and their house) > were blown up. Anyway, that made me think that maybe it isn't really > Number 4 Privet Drive that's the protection, but physically being > with his relatives that keeps Harry safe. OK, everyone but me > probably already knew that. I'll go back to lurking now. :) > > Susan I was just thinking the same exact thing last night while rereading SS. That would partially explain why the Dursley's feel like Harry is such a burden to them, they have to constantly be in the vicinity of him (and they hate magic) They must feel even more tied down than they would if they just had to take care of him. However, they are not concerned with Harry's welfare, but rather for their things (they were concerned about their -house- and their -car- being blown up) Which makes me wonder, what were they going to do when Dudley and Harry were no longer in school together? (If he hadn't gotten his Hogwarts Letter) Dudley was going off to Smeltings while Harry was going to somewhere else. Since he would no longer be in the company of a family member, would that have put the other school in danger of a Death Eater attack? Mlle Bienvenu From horsegirlaeg at hotmail.com Tue Apr 1 01:54:42 2003 From: horsegirlaeg at hotmail.com (Ali) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 01:54:42 -0000 Subject: Ron might die! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54632 EEH! Except, I love him! And if he does, I'll go into a deep state of depression! Check this out... In a recent interview with JKR, she said more people were going to die, and that there was a particular death that was going to be "horrible to write." One might think this death is going to be Ron Weasley's. (Though I say NO everyone says it would fit with the storyline) It is very possible that Ron Weasley's character is based on the legend of Running Weasel, a warlord of the 6th Dynasty. Running Weasel never lost a game of chess and was killed by his rat that was dyed yellow by some of his friends as a joke earlier. This fits SO perfectly with Ron Weasley, the guy we love! Maybe I could not deny even to myself how likely it was that he is going to die. EEEH! NOOO! *goes to hug ron doll* Ali From artsylynda at aol.com Tue Apr 1 13:47:07 2003 From: artsylynda at aol.com (artsylynda at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 08:47:07 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and the Dursleys Message-ID: <1d2.677cf53.2bbaf25b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54633 mille bienvenue: > That would partially explain why the Dursley's feel like Harry is > such a burden to them, they have to constantly be in the vicinity of > him (and they hate magic) nope, they don't have to be with him constantly. They leave him with Mrs. Figg (who makes Harry look at picture books of all the cats she's owned, and since she's a witch [which we learn much later], why don't the pictures move?? That just occurred to me.). Anyway, when they go off for holidays on their own, they leave him with Mrs. Figg, so they aren't with him all the time. And they don't know she's a witch, from all we can learn in canon (unless I've missed something in upteen readings. . .) or they wouldn't let Harry near her. They don't want his "magical tendencies" encouraged, so if they KNEW someone was a witch or wizard, they'd do everything they could to keep him away from them. JMHO. Lynda * * * "Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From artsylynda at aol.com Tue Apr 1 13:54:09 2003 From: artsylynda at aol.com (artsylynda at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 08:54:09 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron might die! Message-ID: <1c9.79f5154.2bbaf401@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54634 Ali: > It is very possible that Ron Weasley's character is based > on the legend of Running Weasel, a warlord of the 6th Dynasty. > Running Weasel never lost a game of chess and was killed by his rat > that was dyed yellow by some of his friends as a joke earlier. This > fits SO perfectly with Ron Weasley, the guy we love! Maybe I could > not deny even to myself how likely it was that he is going to die. > EEEH! NOOO! *goes to hug ron doll* > well, I sure hope not, but the Ron in the books IS a courageous guy when he has to be. He was willing to sacrifice himself in the chess game because he knew it was important *Harry* go on -- not him nor Hermione (don't have the book right here, hope I'm accurate on this, but that's how I remember it). He was willing to do what he could to "further the mission" but he's a "soldier" not the "hero" of the story and he seems to know that. I don't want him to die either, but I *can* see him putting himself in harm's way to save Harry -- unless there were spiders involved. . . ;-> And then Harry would be even more determined (as if he needs to be) to get Voldemort. I'd never heard this Running Weasel story -- sure does fit. Hopefully JKR will decide to "do her own thing" and not follow that idea to it's sad conclusion! Hmm, could that mean JKR is a H/Hr shipper? That the remaining pair will bond forever? Yikes, my mind is raceing off in various tangents with this Running Weasel legend info. . .argh!! Wishing I had a Ron doll to hug, or could at least yell a warning to Ron!! Lynda * * * "Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue Apr 1 07:09:04 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 07:09:04 -0000 Subject: Harry and the Dursleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54635 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "imamommy at s..." wrote: > why *didn't* the Dursley's turn Harry over to an > orphanage? I sure would like a peek at the letter Dumbledore wrote > them. What could he possibly say that would have compelled them to > keep him? And why would they keep him if they never intended to even > try to love him? Harry was just a child they might rid of magic (that's what they thought, anyway). Tom Marvolo Riddle was raised in orphanage and turned out to be an extremely bad wizard, Voldemort, who went and killed the relatives who had abandoned him, as well as Harry's parents and was now *gone* because of Harry - if Dumbledore told them that, I think Dursleys would be too frightened not to. Still, they do not care of Harry. Dumbledore will tell all that to Harry in the next book, I guess - what Dumbledore *should* have told Harry five years ago and only does now, and what Harry should have asked long time ago: "Why do I go back to Dursleys?" - and once he *has* asked that, I honestly doubt he'll go back again! After all, Dursleys lack of care can be lethal too. They may not starve him to death but they come close enough (might have been successful if not for Harry's friends sending him cakes and candy); Dursleys pretending Harry doesn't exist to the world wouldn't take Harry to see a doctor/hospital if Harry got appendicitis... -- Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue Apr 1 07:19:41 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 07:19:41 -0000 Subject: Whose prophecy? (was Re: Why Harry?) In-Reply-To: <003901c2f7e1$8cbe01c0$62a0cdd1@RVotaw> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54636 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > > I'm not entirely convinced one way or another, but the strongest evidence to me isn't Harry's flashback of Voldemort telling Lily to stand aside. It's Voldemort (SS/PS) telling Harry ". . . your mother needn't have died . . . she was trying to protect you . . . " > > This implies that Voldemort had no intentions of killing Lily. This could be something as simple as not wanting his wand to overheat from too many AK's back to back, or something else entirely. Which could consist of anything from promising one of his DE's to spare her, to bribing Peter Pettigrew with Lily's life, to who knows what. > One reason why Voldemort would NOT want to kill Lily: she has saved his life once. Life-debt IS deeply honoured by many wizards. Voldermort being what he is, he might ignore it - arrogance on his part, but that might explain why he'd not just kill off Lily and *then* kill Harry. Why was she so special to be offered a life? Other mothers might have done the same for their sons and daughters, but they never got the chance or Harry wouldn't be so unique... -- Finwitch From t.forch at mail.dk Tue Apr 1 07:29:23 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 09:29:23 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Whose prophecy? (was Re: Why Harry?) In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030330220508.00d6be20@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030331191925.00cbfd50@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 54637 At 06:10 31-03-03 +0000, Steve wrote: >True, Voldemort said at other times and in other places that Lily >didn't have to die but those word suited his needs at the moment. I >see nothing in the event or in my analysis of Voldemort's character >that makes me believe that his words can be trusted. They are without >exception self-serving, and never sincere. It is more than that. It is repeatedly emphasised that Lily did /not/ have to die, both by the memories awakened by the Dementors in PoA, and when Harry meets Voldemort. It is also a necessity for the protection Harry enjoys. It is fuelled by his mother dying because she protected him - by her sacrificing herself. If Voldemort were going to kill her anyway, there would be no sacrifice, and she would be dying because he had decided so - that would have rendered the protection inoperable. Troels From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue Apr 1 08:16:27 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 08:16:27 -0000 Subject: ....what I SHOULD have told you.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54638 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "siriuskase" wrote: > It wouldn't necessarily screw things up to reveal the answer (or > partial anser) to this question this "early". Once it is out in the > open how we all came to be in this predicament, it could still take 3 > books to figure out what to do about it. I don't think that the story > revolves around this one question. Revealing the answer might not > resolve the problem, it may just change relationships between Harry > and Dumbledore or do something else that would set the tone for the > next phase of Harry's battle with evil. 3 books to figure out what to do with the "answer". Knowledge, understanding and acceptance. Like - the truth of his parents and that Dursleys lied to him; In CoS, understanding that someone wanting to help might be imprisoned too, that Dursleys want to pretend, keep their image... Acceptance - to accept that Dursleys aren't really his guardians, as he finds Sirius to fill that gap. Accepting Sirius as his guardian. Accepting the death of his parents (learning patronus?) There's knowledge of Pettigrew and his intention in PoA. in GoF this is understood (as Harry meets Voldemort)... Oh, I do hope that Sirius gets free! -- Finwitch From Nickamano at btinternet.com Tue Apr 1 13:36:38 2003 From: Nickamano at btinternet.com (Nick) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 13:36:38 -0000 Subject: Whose prophecy? (was Re: Why Harry?) In-Reply-To: <45378.204.248.21.50.1049136691.squirrel@www.cynjut.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54639 Lilly, leave or kill... Look at it from Voldemort's point of view... Even if the Potter parents are his targets, it's easier to kill them while he's gt them than to try and spare them and have them walking around with thier minds bent on vengeance. He probbaly just did was what easier. (These conversations go by too fast to keep up with!!) Nick From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Tue Apr 1 14:01:01 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 14:01:01 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Pop (was: the sorting hat problem) In-Reply-To: <20030331211846.71600.qmail@web10908.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54640 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Andrea wrote: > 1.) If the Sorting Hat was responsible for the division, why doesn't it > call out, "Gryffindor, A!" instead of just the House name? It goes > against everything we've seen of the Hat to think it's somehow > transcribing a list (with...what, exactly? *g* No hands) while sorting the > students that is later given to the professors with everyone's "group > assignments". So any group division is, IMO, far more likely to be done > by the professors, not the Hat. Actually, that may be a more valid way of looking at it. Most likely done while they are figuring out class schedules and the like. The only reason I suspected that hat is that Harry is placed in a dorm room with his group at the very beginning, right after the sorting, before they get their schedules. > > I think any divisions would be made on a purely random or arbitrary means > while putting together the timetables. ("All right, all names with an odd > number of letters go in Group A and all names with an even number of > letters go in Group B, unless you were born on a full moon during a Leap > Year or a month with no vowels in in." -- Hey, who said it had to be a > *logical* division? *g*) > Really, my only basis to the "cream of the crop" theory is my own expeirence as a teacher at a private school. At the school I'm at students are placed (in part) by academic ability into the A class or the B class. No one know which class is which except for the teachers in the school (in fact most students and parents are unaware that this happens at all). Other things are taken into consideration of course (student personailties, balance of male/female, etc). So, it seems to me (and this is just my opinion), that Harry's group strikes me as a Group A. Serena From kkearney at students.miami.edu Tue Apr 1 14:41:50 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 14:41:50 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Humpty-Dumptying the Bangs (or not) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54641 > "DIMINISHED CAPACITIES: Death In Massive Increments Negates Its > Supposed Horror - EveryDay Corpses And Perpetual Atrocities Create > Indifference Toward Empty Sacrifices. Oh, drat, screwed up already. That was supposed to read "Toward Increasingly Empty Sacrifices". -Corinth From petra.delisser at postikaista.net Tue Apr 1 14:51:07 2003 From: petra.delisser at postikaista.net (brinforest) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 14:51:07 -0000 Subject: Ron might die! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54642 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" wrote: > It is very possible that Ron Weasley's character is based > on the legend of Running Weasel, a warlord of the 6th Dynasty. > Running Weasel never lost a game of chess and was killed by his rat > that was dyed yellow by some of his friends as a joke earlier. I understand that the existence of this legend has already been questioned here earlier, and to me it certainly sounds suspicious. Do you, Ali, or anyone else, know for sure that this actually is an old legend and not made up? Any reliable sources older than the HP books? Brin From grace701 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 1 15:58:44 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 15:58:44 -0000 Subject: Harry and the Dursleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54643 imamommy wrote: >Another thing: why *didn't* the Dursley's turn Harry over to an >orphanage? I sure would like a peek at the letter Dumbledore wrote >them. What could he possibly say that would have compelled them to >keep him? And why would they keep him if they never intended to >even try to love him? Would anyone believe that maybe the Dursleys' actually have a soft spot for Harry? I know, I know they treat him like garbage, but deep down inside there's a little iddy biddy love. Greicy From d_lea25 at yahoo.ca Tue Apr 1 16:23:38 2003 From: d_lea25 at yahoo.ca (Lea) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 11:23:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and the Dursleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030401162338.7740.qmail@web13007.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54644 mlle_bienvenu wrote: >Which makes me wonder, what were they going to do >when Dudley and >Harry were no longer in school together? (If he >hadn't gotten his >Hogwarts Letter) Dudley was going off to Smeltings >while Harry was >going to somewhere else. Since he would no longer be >in the company >of a family member, would that have put the other >school in danger of Mlle Bienvenu Me: This does make sense, but IMHO I believe that the Dursleys were very happy to be sending Harry off to school (as long as it wasn't to Hogwart's, of course) - then if there was any blowing up to be done - it would be at Harry's school, not at their precious house. And even the thought of sending Harry over to Mrs Figg's for the day was preferable, in their minds, to leaving him home alone. Any attacks/blowing up would be done at Mrs Figgs house - where Harry was. Also, in GoF, Voldemort makes reference to the protection provided by his relatives - "But how to get at Harry Potter? For he has been better protected than I think he even knows, protected in ways devised by Dumbledore long ago, when it fell to him to arrange the boy's future. Dumbledore invoked an ancient magic, to ensure the boy's protection as long as he is in his relations' care. Not even I can touch him there. And then, of course, there was the Quidditch World Cup..I thought his protection might be weaker there, away from his relations and Dumbledore." I also would love to know the contents of the letter that Dumbledore left with Harry the night he left him at the Dursleys. Let us hope that JKR will let us in on that secret before the end of Book 7. Lea :) Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3098817.4420487.1456763/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=0/id=flashurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.swf?clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3098817.4420487.1456763/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=1/id=altimgurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.gif";var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250; ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From d_lea25 at yahoo.ca Tue Apr 1 16:28:52 2003 From: d_lea25 at yahoo.ca (Lea) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 11:28:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and the Dursleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030401162852.11692.qmail@web13006.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54645 grace701 wrote: >Would anyone believe that maybe the Dursleys' >actually have a soft >spot for Harry? I know, I know they treat him like >garbage, but >deep down inside there's a little iddy biddy love. >Greicy Me: Sorry Greicy.. but I believe that when pigs fly is when the Dursleys might have a tiny bit of feeling, other than loathing, for their nephew. And we all know that pigs flying would mean there is magic involved, so that will never happen! Lea :) Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From grace701 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 1 16:41:33 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 16:41:33 -0000 Subject: Whose prophecy? (was Re: Why Harry?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54646 Nick wrote: >Lilly, leave or kill... >Look at it from Voldemort's point of view... Even if the Potter >parents are his targets, it's easier to kill them while he's gt >them than to try and spare them and have them walking around with >thier minds bent on vengeance. He probbaly just did was what easier. > (These conversations go by too fast to keep up with!!) Voldemort was more than likely going to kill Lily after Harry if she had for some stupid reason taken into consideration to move aside. His focal point was Harry and he wanted to obviously get rid of Harry, possibly asap. If he could just kill Harry without having any obstacles in the way was perfect. Having Lily pleading to take her was just as others have suggested an annoyance. Basically, it could have been "Step aside girl." Lily didn't. So now it's kind of like, "Fine if you're not going to make this easy for me, I'll kill you now rather than later." Greicy From kenneyjohn at yahoo.com.au Tue Apr 1 11:02:42 2003 From: kenneyjohn at yahoo.com.au (kenney) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 11:02:42 -0000 Subject: Harry may not be missing... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54647 On more recent inspections of the British covers for "Order of the Phoenix" and "Goblet of Fire", I have discovered that when I line up the two lines of title print "HARRY POTTER" the "Order of the Phoenix" cover art is missing 10% of the graphic. (That is) "Goblet" has a graphic one tenth larger on its cover when compared to the title font and size of the font on "Order" Could this mean that Harry is on the front cover of "Order" after all? >From Mr Harry Potter's Key Or Kenney, who still thinks Harry Potter is the worst character in the "Harry Potter" series when textually compared with others... From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 1 16:56:13 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 16:56:13 -0000 Subject: Ron might die! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54648 --- Brinforest wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" > wrote: > > It is very possible that Ron Weasley's character is based > > on the legend of Running Weasel, a warlord of the 6th Dynasty. > > Running Weasel never lost a game of chess and was killed by his > rat > > that was dyed yellow by some of his friends as a joke earlier. > > I understand that the existence of this legend has already been > questioned here earlier, and to me it certainly sounds suspicious. > Do you, Ali, or anyone else, know for sure that this actually is an > old legend and not made up? Any reliable sources older than the HP > books? Yes, I too am very suspicious of this so-called legend. I did a quick Google search for "Running Weasel" and the ONLY results that turn up are either HP-related sites or ones that are literally talking about a weasel running. *g* Surely if this was a real legend, it would turn up SOMEWHERE else. I'd like to know if anyone's heard of this "legend" through anything BUT an HP site. Andrea From william.truderung at sympatico.ca Tue Apr 1 17:04:55 2003 From: william.truderung at sympatico.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 17:04:55 -0000 Subject: Ron might die! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54649 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Andrea" wrote: > --- Brinforest wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" > > wrote: > > > It is very possible that Ron Weasley's character is based > > > on the legend of Running Weasel, a warlord of the 6th Dynasty. > > > Running Weasel never lost a game of chess and was killed by his > > rat > > > that was dyed yellow by some of his friends as a joke earlier. > > > > I understand that the existence of this legend has already been > > questioned here earlier, and to me it certainly sounds suspicious. > > Do you, Ali, or anyone else, know for sure that this actually is an > > old legend and not made up? Any reliable sources older than the HP > > books? > > Yes, I too am very suspicious of this so-called legend. I did a quick > Google search for "Running Weasel" and the ONLY results that turn up > are either HP-related sites or ones that are literally talking about a > weasel running. *g* Surely if this was a real legend, it would turn > up SOMEWHERE else. I'd like to know if anyone's heard of this > "legend" through anything BUT an HP site. > > > Andrea This story has been circulating for at least a year. It is NOT TRUE! I have read quite a few posts at various places, debunking it. Apparently, somebody wrote the story as a joke, and it got picked up and is now spread so widely that it has become a widely-believed myth. From grosich at nyc.rr.com Tue Apr 1 17:11:07 2003 From: grosich at nyc.rr.com (Gina R Rosich) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 12:11:07 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and the Dursleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54650 > imamommy wrote: >> >Another thing: why *didn't* the Dursley's turn Harry over to an >> >orphanage? I sure would like a peek at the letter Dumbledore wrote >> >them. What could he possibly say that would have compelled them to >> >keep him? And why would they keep him if they never intended to >> >even try to love him? > > and grace701 at yahoo.com wrote: > Would anyone believe that maybe the Dursleys' actually have a soft > spot for Harry? I know, I know they treat him like garbage, but > deep down inside there's a little iddy biddy love. > > > ME: I don?t think there is any love there. I think they get two things out of keeping Harry. First, he is an outlet for all of their apparent anger at the world. Second, it makes them look good (they think, anyway). By saying they could have left him in an orphanage but didn?t, it elevates their status as good, responsible, charitable people. They think Harry should be grateful for all they have done. They don?t see themselves as having done anything wrong. What I wonder (and maybe this was in the letter) is how soon they knew Harry was magical. Did they only start to hate him when his magical abilities became apparent? Or the second they saw him at the doorstep? Do they hate him just for his magic? Or for the fact that he was the child of Petunia?s sister, who she hated. --- Gina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Tue Apr 1 17:41:27 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 1 Apr 2003 17:41:27 -0000 Subject: File - HPfGU.announcement-Nimbus.htm Message-ID: <1049218887.33986309.53528.m12@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54651 An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From urbana at charter.net Tue Apr 1 18:24:12 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 18:24:12 -0000 Subject: Harry and the Dursleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54652 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mlle_bienvenu" wrote: However, [the Dursleys] are > not concerned with Harry's welfare, but rather for their things (they > were concerned about their -house- and their -car- being blown up) > Which makes me wonder, what were they going to do when Dudley and > Harry were no longer in school together? (If he hadn't gotten his > Hogwarts Letter) Dudley was going off to Smeltings while Harry was > going to somewhere else. Since he would no longer be in the company > of a family member, would that have put the other school in danger of > a Death Eater attack? IIRC Harry was going to attend "Stonewall High", a publicly funded day-school for local kids, while Dudley was going to Smeltings, which is what would be called a "boarding school" in the U.S. We had a huge and lengthy discussion about the British school system on the OT- Chatter list recently, so if you want to see how the two systems compare (or wish to restart that discussion), you'll need to read the OT-Chatter list messages. Anyway it appears that when Dudley went off to Smeltings, Harry would have continued to live with the Dursleys had he not finally received his Hogwarts letter. Anne U (who just realized that the Dursleys kind of treat Harry like a house- elf, but much less kindly...perhaps they treat him like the Malfoys treated Dobby??) From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Apr 1 19:20:42 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 19:20:42 -0000 Subject: Whose prophecy? (was Re: Why Harry?) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030331191925.00cbfd50@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54653 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Troels Forchhammer wrote: > At 06:10 31-03-03 +0000, Steve wrote: > > I see nothing in the event or in my analysis of Voldemort's > > character that makes me believe that his words can be trusted. > > They are without exception self-serving, and never sincere. > > It is more than that. > It is repeatedly emphasised that Lily did /not/ have to die, > both by the memories awakened by the Dementors in PoA, and > when Harry meets Voldemort. > bboy_mn: The PoA/Dementor memories say nothing other than 'stand aside' and 'kill me (Lily) instead of Harry'. As far as Harry meeting Voldemort, the point I made is that Voldemort made self-serivng statements at those time. To say Lily didn't have to die served the moment and wasn't necessearily a reflection of the original event. > It is also a necessity for the protection Harry enjoys. It > is fuelled by his mother dying because she protected him - > by her sacrificing herself. If Voldemort were going to kill > her anyway, there would be no sacrifice, and she would be > dying because he had decided so - that would have rendered > the protection inoperable. > > Troels bboy_mn: See my response to this same statement made by someone else. See post- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/54609 Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From groml at cards.lanck.net Tue Apr 1 18:55:55 2003 From: groml at cards.lanck.net (Maria Gromova) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 22:55:55 +0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron might die! Message-ID: <000201c2f885$c2c00c60$a542983e@rcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 54654 Ali wrote: It is very possible that Ron Weasley's character is based >on the legend of Running Weasel, a warlord of the 6th Dynasty. >Running Weasel never lost a game of chess and was killed by his rat >that was dyed yellow by some of his friends as a joke earlier. This >fits SO perfectly with Ron Weasley, the guy we love! But the *rat* was never dyed yellow. Gred and Forge gave to Ron a fake spell, so the coincidence is not complete. Therefore I would hope for the best. And pray tell, the 6th Dynasty of who? Maria. > From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Tue Apr 1 14:06:52 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 14:06:52 -0000 Subject: Ron might die! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54655 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" wrote: > EEH! Except, I love him! And if he does, I'll go into a deep state of > depression! Check this out... > In a recent interview with JKR, she said more people were going to > die, and that there was a particular death that was going to > be "horrible to write." One might think this death is going to be Ron > Weasley's. (Though I say NO everyone says it would fit with the > storyline) Well, I know this is little comfort, but I do remember reading somewhere that JK said that Ron and Hermione wouldn't get killed off (but that was an old interview, pre GoF). Honestly, I think both of them are just to integral to the plot to bite the big one (yet). However, now that Voldemort is back, really no one except Harry (at least til book 7) is safe. After all, what would they call it--"Ron Weasly and The Green Flame Torch" or better yet "Neville Longbottom and the Green Flame Torch" Tee hee! Hey, there's a character I've not heard about dying. Maybe Neville will be the next to go? Serena From Nickamano at btinternet.com Tue Apr 1 14:14:58 2003 From: Nickamano at btinternet.com (Nick) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 14:14:58 -0000 Subject: Harry and the Dursleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54656 I think people are reading too much into the "Last of the Potters" thing. Harry's refered to as the last of the Potters 'cause he is just that - the quote from Sirius to Pettigrew was regarding Pettigrew living at Hogwarts and not killing Harry. I.E: he wanted to wait until Voldemort was back in power. The insinuation (as I understand it of course) is that Harry is the only one Voltemort really had to kill, his parents were incidental, and they knew it. Lilly parents seemed to be Muggles (from a line Petunia says... which I can't remember - about having "a witch in the family".) We know nothing about James' family... on the other hand if Harry had living grandparents they would have been first in line to take him in... unless they were of Wizarding family... I'm digging myself into a hole again!) <><><> I think there are around 200 students per house at Hogwarts. There's mention in PoA of 200 Slytherins booing at the Quidditch final (I think) and the whole school is in attendence (suggesting the total number of Slytherin house). Which in turn suggests about 30 students per each of the 7 years (per house) and a total of around 800 students at Hogwarts at any one time. <><><> Filtch and mopping the muddly floors. It can't be filches job alone. Just think about it a huge stone castle with four floors (not including the dungeons?) corridors, classrooms, dormitories, common rooms, staff rooms, offices, kitchens, toilets, halls. Far too much for one man to do. <><><> Nick From cristina_angelo at yahoo.com Tue Apr 1 17:14:03 2003 From: cristina_angelo at yahoo.com (Cristina Rebelo Angelo) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 19:14:03 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and the Dursleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54657 imamommy wrote: >Another thing: why *didn't* the Dursley's turn Harry over to an >orphanage? I sure would like a peek at the letter Dumbledore wrote >them. What could he possibly say that would have compelled them to >keep him? And why would they keep him if they never intended to >even try to love him? grace701 Would anyone believe that maybe the Dursleys' actually have a soft spot for Harry? I know, I know they treat him like garbage, but deep down inside there's a little iddy biddy love. Greicy [Cristina Rebelo Angelo] Apart from whatever was in the letter (I'd bet something more like a menace of blowing them up if they didn't keep Harry that an appeal or some kind of soft reasoning :-), maybe the Dursleys kept Harry for that masochist thing of having a burden. Let's face it, they are considered soooooooooo good for having taken him in... I've always put it under this devious psychological mechanism, not quite the religion thing of having to suffer, but more the secret pleasure of being a victim of the family's rotten sheep - and also a great way to make at least someone, especially someone weaker, pay for all Petunia had had to put up with. Remember, there's somewhere where Petunia spits out that Lilly's weirdness had been very well taken by their parents. If you take a look into english literature, you'll see a lot of these cases, where relatives take in the "rotten" youngster, and gloat in the pleasure of making it suffer, and in the social status it gives them (not english lit, but Cinderella and Snow Whte might be an example). ADVERTISEMENT ************************** Cristina Rebelo ?ngelo Any attached file not mentioned in the body of the message may be a virus; if present, delete it for the sake of your computer, and inform the sender. Thank you. "Quand on n'a que l'amour/ Pour tracer un chemin/ Et forcer le destin/ A chaque carrefour Quand on n'a que l'amour/ Pour parler aux canons/ Et rien qu'une chanson/ Pour coinvancre un tambour Alors sans avoir rien/ Que la force d'aimer/ Nous aurons dans nos mains/ Amis le monde entier" J.Brel 1956 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From GildorElf at yahoo.co.uk Tue Apr 1 19:19:21 2003 From: GildorElf at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Gildor?=) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 20:19:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron might die! Nah, I think it is Hagrid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030401191921.12666.qmail@web11308.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54658 I quite doubth Ron will be the one to die, it has been speculated for monthes who it is, and in most places people have come to the conclusion, who ever it is, it wont be Ron. Certainly he would be a horrible death, but he is too important a character, it would be a bit like making Harry loose an arm, in my humble opinion. Rowling once in an interview said that was quite amazed at the amount of children that came up and asked her to not kill off Ron, she said that she couldn't understand why they thought she would, and thinking for a wile she laughed at said that well she suppose he was the type of character that people assumed would eventually pass away. That tells me quite clearly Ron has never really been an option, nah, I think it is only 3 people who is the possible character 1. Hagrid 2. Mrs.Weasley 3. Remus Lupin Hagrid and Lupin would both make horrible deaths, and I could go in to why Hagrid is such a good option but you will find all of it on www.mugglenet.com Remus is just an option because he is a liked but disposable character Mrs.Weasley is an option because, well.. Rowling lost her mother and she has said it effected how she wrote the book, this too you can find on that site. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail - For a better Internet experience [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From burgess at cynjut.net Tue Apr 1 19:54:24 2003 From: burgess at cynjut.net (David Burgess) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 13:54:24 -0600 (CST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and the Dursleys In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56058.204.248.21.50.1049226864.squirrel@www.cynjut.net> No: HPFGUIDX 54659 > > > > > imamommy wrote: >> Another thing: why *didn't* the Dursley's turn Harry over to >> an orphanage? I sure would like a peek at the letter >> Dumbledore wrote them. What could he possibly say that would >> have compelled them to keep him? And why would they keep him >> if they never intended to even try to love him? > > Would anyone believe that maybe the Dursleys' actually have a soft spot > for Harry? I know, I know they treat him like garbage, but deep > down inside there's a little iddy biddy love. > > Greicy > I don't think so. From a technical (craft/storyline) perspective, Harry needs to be completely on his own, to the point that the only people who care for him are absent and all those present mistreat him, to invoke the maximum empathy from the reader. The inference needs to be that Harry is alone in the world, and the only support he has is while we are reading and cheering for him. I know: "Someone watched Neverending Story with the grandkids again...." >From a story perspective, I've been through SS/PS about a dozen times and I keep coming away from that with the feeling that Petunia is either really psychotic/psychopathic, or she really has a 'hard-on' for Harry. Her disgust and hatred for the boy is palpable, even through the written page. In fact, she hates Harry so much that she has over compensated with "the pig in knickers", just to make it even more, abundantly clear just how much she really, really hates Harry. These are not the acts of someone that has the least bit of positive feelings for him. Another component - I'm convinced that Harry's size and stature are not genetic. He's described with terms like 'slight' and 'scrawny'. Clearly, he is underdeveloped, which I take as an indication of systematic malnutrition over most of his early years. There's no indication in canon that I can find, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if Harry's primary care-giver when he was a baby was Vernon. In SS/PS, at least until the Wizarding World invades his home, Vernon seems to view Harry as something that gets him into trouble (with Petunia, the neighbors, etc.) Other than being bossy (which is a character flaw for lots of folks), I don't get the feeling of complete loathing I do from Petunia. Even as late as GoF, Vernon's big complaint was that the Postman was laughing about the letter's postage. The book even describes his feelings as being embarassed by the attention.... I've advanced a theory that Petunia has a much bigger axe to grind with Harry than we've been privy to. We'll see - in fact, I'm guessing that's one of the answers associated with, when JKR says "Harry will ask questions that people have been thinking 'why hasn't he asked that question before' in this book..." (paraphrased from the A&E Interview). There are still thousands of posts in the archives that I haven't read (yet) and I'm sure this has been hashed out a hundred time, but I definitely think that there is something much deeper than Petunia just being a jerk. Petunia grew up in a house where there was at least one passably talented witch at least 3 months out of the year. She even spits out her parents' words as invectives: "Oh look, we have a witch in the family." Her feigned ignorance of the Wizarding World is flat ridiculous. Her status as a Squib is possible and might be the basis for hating wizards, but that still doesn't explain how that has translated to such intense loathing of a child that has never really done anything to deserve it. The reach is just too far for my taste. Vernon, between being a relatively average Muggle and being completely ignorant of the WW should be a little afraid, especially after the Potters "got themselves blown up". Heck, his first-hand experiences with magic in first half a dozen chapters of SS/PS alone (the haircut, Harry on the roof, the snake incident at the zoo, the owls, the flurry of Hogwarts letters, and Hagrid and the pigtail) would be enough to scare the cr*p out of anyone. Never mind how terrifying the Fluepowder incident must have been later. His experiences with magic to-date clearly make his feelings well earned. Petunia should, at the very least, be aware, if not used to it. If nothing else, she should have (as an absolute minimum) known that Harry's Hogwarts letter would be coming. I'd really like to know the contents of the letter Dumbledore left with Harry. It might shed some light on this. -- Dave Burgess From burgess at cynjut.net Tue Apr 1 20:24:55 2003 From: burgess at cynjut.net (David Burgess) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 14:24:55 -0600 (CST) Subject: Whose prophecy? (was Re: Why Harry?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56263.204.248.21.50.1049228695.squirrel@www.cynjut.net> No: HPFGUIDX 54660 Greicy wrote: > > Nick wrote: >> Lilly, leave or kill... > >> Look at it from Voldemort's point of view... Even if the Potter >> parents are his targets, it's easier to kill them while he's gt >> them than to try and spare them and have them walking around with >> thier minds bent on vengeance. He probbaly just did was what easier. >> (These conversations go by too fast to keep up with!!) > > > Voldemort was more than likely going to kill Lily after Harry if she > had for some stupid reason taken into consideration to move aside. > His focal point was Harry and he wanted to obviously get rid of > Harry, possibly asap. If he could just kill Harry without having > any obstacles in the way was perfect. Having Lily pleading to take > her was just as others have suggested an annoyance. Basically, it > could have been "Step aside girl." Lily didn't. > So now it's kind of like, "Fine if you're not going to make this > easy for me, I'll kill you now rather than later." > Something just occurred to me on this: I used to play D&D a long time ago, and we had something called "alignments". One of the things about alignments was that the characters has certain things that their alignments indicated they should do. Think of it as 'the right thing to do for someone as sick as you'. So, if we assume that everything Voldemort says is self-serving and only truthful to the extent that Voldemorts wants the truth to extend, what would this order possibly mean. Later (as pointed out to me earlier), Voldemort tells Harry that "your mother didn't have to die." We know this to be true because we trust Voldemort. Huh? The rest of the line would have been "All she had to do was run away when I came or hand you over to me so that I didn't have to go through all this stuff for the past 10 years." I'm certain that the entire exchange is designed to undermine Harry's resolve. If he had faltered for more than a second, I'd have been standing on my chair screaming at the book "NO YOU IDIOT, IT'S A TRICK!" Of course, my wife have been there with the digital camera, and since you haven't seen that picture yet.... Another literary example: "Luke, I am your Father." It moves the story along, and is (technically) true. I think we are working from a similar position in this story. We know (from the description of the interactions between the dementors and Harry) what was said and can imagine the scene, but we have to remember that Voldemort was at the top of his game. He had been in hiding for a couple of years, and came out to kill Harry and James (plus everyone else that died in the flurry of homicide that is hinted at several places in canon)*. The question that is still the nexus of the entire line of thought is "What precipitated this action?" Everyone (in HP and RL) reacts to stimuli of various kinds. Most people, especially people with as much to lose as Voldemort had to lose, don't just sit up one day and think "Hmmm, I'm gonna go find that kid from the school and kill his whole family." Voldemort and the senior Potters weren't in the same class, so they had to come to his attention some other way. Some people think is was a prophecy of some kind - I don't see anything in canon that supports that, with the possible exception the cleverly vague "That's two" for Trelawny. I think it was something mundane. No idea what yet, but it was definitively something much more like a response to an immediate threat to Voldemort's powerbase. *Footnote: In PoA, I think, we hear the Voldemort had been in hiding for 2 more years than Harry has been an orphan. Most people ascribe this to bad math on JKR's point. I think he was hiding from the MoM and the Aurors. -- Dave Burgess From t.forch at mail.dk Tue Apr 1 21:20:42 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 23:20:42 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hogwarts Pop (was: the sorting hat problem) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030401230959.00cbd5e0@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 54661 At 18:06 31-03-03 +0000, Serena Moonsilver wrote: > This particular issue has been the subject of much (much!) debate. > Offically, JK has said that there around 1000 students at Hogwarts. > With 200 in a house, that puts it at 800. Though most people arrive > at or arround the 280 you mentioned when you actually try and > calculate it. One of the main problems stems from the documentary "Harry and me" where Rowling shows to the camara a list of 41 student names, which she tells is the whole of Harry's year (the pictures are in this groups photo section). Even if you assume that Harry's year is below average, I can't imagine that it should be only about 1/4 of the other years. There is, however, much evidence that Rowling, while an extraordinarily good writer is considerably more limited in her mathematical skills. There is the dating issue and several other issues (the real world value of a Galleon would indicate a gold content of less than 1 gram). In the end it might be best to not wonder about it, because there is no way to make the numbers meet, and we have several indications that Rowling just hasn't bothered to make numbers meet at all. Troels From t.forch at mail.dk Tue Apr 1 21:32:31 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 23:32:31 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Another angle on St Mungo's In-Reply-To: <000601c2f7ad$bcc93120$c17d0550@f3b7j4> References: <1049068045.16950.29219.m10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030401232914.00cc2d70@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 54662 At 18:48 31-03-03 +0100, manawydan wrote: >Ministry men like Barty Crouch come across as very much like caricature >civil servants of the 1920s The matter of the cauldron bottom thicknesses, and Percy's general attitude towards his work suggests to me the modern Brussels civil servant - the EU variety (there isn't, IMO, far from the thickness of cauldrons to the curvature of cucumbers ;-) Troels From paul.richmond at motorola.com Tue Apr 1 21:52:09 2003 From: paul.richmond at motorola.com (Richmond Paul-ra9250) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 14:52:09 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron might die! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54663 Ali wrote: > Running Weasel never lost a game of chess and was killed by his rat > that was dyed yellow by some of his friends as a joke earlier. OK, this is just funny. My first thought was that this was an obvious joke, and I was amazed that anyone could believe it. Then I take a look and see that this silly story is posted on at least a dozen websites! It has all the earmarks of an intentionally created hoax, including the fact that this same story is quoted almost word-for-word on all these sites. There was one site that had something a little bit different, posted by "Speedball": "Uh-huh. In this fantasy novel I read recently, there is this character whose name is much like "Running Weasel". Historically (i.e. according to one of his presumed descendants, Kat Weasley) this guy was supposedly a great warlord and a brilliant military strategist, who also never lost a single game of chess. In the end he was said to have been killed by a rat -- one that had been dyed yellow. The rat knocked down a lamp in his house and burnt the place to the ground, killing Running Weasel." Kat Weasley? Is this a character from a fantasy novel? Nope, it's a Harry Potter fan who's posted on several fan sites. Including one where she posted as "Kat and Ali Weasley." Wait, wasn't that email from Ali? Aha! My only question to Ali: did you invent the hoax, or are you just helping it spread? - Paul Richmond From BEANNEBOY1 at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Apr 1 22:04:05 2003 From: BEANNEBOY1 at HOTMAIL.COM (beanneboy) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 22:04:05 -0000 Subject: Harry and the Dursleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54664 For people that hate Harry as much as the Dursleys it would seem logical (to those damn muggles) to offload him to an orphanage, as somebody else mentioned. The letter Dumbledore left would not of been threatening, however you know how fearful they are of magic whether there is reason or not! They were so afraid in PS/SS when Harry got his letter which was addressed to the 'cuboard under the stairs', they moved him immediately to Dudleys second bedroom. Anyhow this leads me to my point, the Dursleys have wild ideas about Wizards/Witches and overall in a sense they think magic evil (maybe a strong term!) So I ask you all would they dare not take Harry in ? fearing the repercussions of refusing those who they believed so dangerous. lee (who would like to give Dudley and the rest of the Dursleys a good hard wack with my smeltings stick!) From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Tue Apr 1 22:36:16 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 22:36:16 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Death, and Hagrid vs. Lupin Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54665 Abigail sits on the floor of a dark, damp cell and mutters incoherent insults, which echo lightly off the walls. The muttering gets lounder and louder, until the words `democracy,' `humpty-dumptying,' and `fair trial' become very articulate, even though the rest of Abigail's speech is still barely understandable. Soon, the resident of a neighbouring cell, Maria, begins to find it difficult to concentrate on her own muttering, and she bangs her fist on the wall dividing the two cells, trying to communicate her irritation. When that doesn't work, she yells, `Would you PLEASE keep it down?' The ranting suddenly ceases. `Oh,' a pleasant voice reaches her ears, `I'm so very sorry. It's just that I was dragged off from the Royal George just now. They're accusing me of treason, you see.' The voice now sounded very huffy. Maria suddenly smiles. `You must be Abigail, then. How very fortunate ? I was sitting here hoping to talk to you about something you said over at George's. I am, by the way, Maria. Cindy and Eileen were here a while ago, and I couldn't help overhearing them saying, among other things, that you claimed that Lu--' Abigail, who has no wish to discuss George's right away, changes the subject. `What are you doing here, anyway?' `Well, I was contemplating a visit to Theory Bay for a while now, and I've finally gotten around to booking a tour. Nice place, I was beginning to develop a taste for it, until I got to the Safe House. There I made the mistake of mentioning to Sneaky ? she was showing me around ? that I can't decide which I like more ? cunning and competent secret agents, or screw-ups. She had me dragged down here very quickly,' says Maria, deep in thought, as though still trying to resolve the question. `Yeah, and she seems so nice at first,' Abigail laughs. `So what did you want to talk to me about?' Maria shakes her head, as though to clear her thoughts. `Well, I believe you said that Lupin is toast, now that all his plot lines are resolved and that he is no longer the only character that suffers from prejudice.' `Yes,' interrupts Abigail, `I did say that Lupin no longer has a function in the books. Unless he's evil, and more evil than Pettigrew. Which brings us to a choice between Dead!Lupin and Really- Horrible-Evil!Lupin. Which will it be?' Maria shudders at the lack of variety in her choices, and picks one. `Dead!Lupin.' Abigail grins. Maria knows that Abigail grinned, even though she can't see her, and says sternly, `I don't choose that option just because it's better than the other one. I, too, am fairly sure that Lupin will die by the end of the books. But I have a different take on it than you do. To start with, I think that Lupin will not die earlier than in the 6th book, the 7th book being much more probable, in my opinion. Shall I carry on?' Abigail gives her permission and Maria continues. `First of all, Evil!Lupin is totally out of the question for me. I have stated that particular belief of mine on multiple occasions, and it's firm. So I'm just going to ignore that possibility and assume that Lupin is good, OK?' Giving Abigail time to nod, Maria takes a breath and continues. `You see, I don't agree with your claim that Lupin no longer has a narrative or plot function. Marina's arguments that OoP is a long book and can change a lot of things aside, there is something that Lupin has yet to do, along with Sirius, preferrably. `As Marina said, Lupin's life sucks. She's absolutely right, and it sucks because a certain rat Animagus got one of his best friends killed, landed another in Azkaban, and played dead himself. This is a situation that just screams `Revenge' to me, and honestly, I can't see a revenge scenario not played out.' `Can't Sirius kill Pettigrew or something? He's already usurped Lupin's function as a father figure, so he can do his revenge thing without Lupin's assistance either," says Abigail. `No, he can't. First of all, forgive me for saying so, but Sirius's life at the moment does not suck as much as Lupin's does. I'll even go so far as to say that Lupin had it almost as bad as Sirius did all those 15-odd years. Which gives them at least an equal right to revenge. Then, I think that it would be fair and logical if they did whatever they want to do to Pettigrew *together*, as the remaining part of the great MWPP,' says Maria with certainty in her voice. `Hmm, but Harry said he didn't want them to become murderers and whatnot, so why would they?' asks Abigail as soon as Maria pauses. `Who said anything about murder? There are other methods of revenge. Edmond Dantes was particularly imaginative in that respect. Besides, what we had in the Shrieking Shack was the possibility of cold- blooded murder. I assume that a duel between two wizard doesn't qualify as such. They can hand Pettigrew over to the Ministry ? all sorts of things, really. Hey, they can convert him to the light side! `What I don't want to see, though, is Harry killing all the bad guys off himself. Assuming that he will be the one to kill/destroy Voldemort, that leaves Lucius and especially Pettigrew to other people, and that's where Moony and Padfoot come in,' Maria finishes. Abigail looks pensive. `I shall have to think about that,' she says. `So, if he has a narrative function like you say, then why do you suppose that Lupin will die at all, and not in OoP either?' Maria thinks for a bit, and then answers the second question first. `Well, as most people seem to agree that OoP will have no direct confrontation with Voldemort, and Pettigrew seems to be Voldemort's tag-along ' Maria's voice trails off, and then continues, `And it would be a shame to watch all that through Harry's scar or, , be told about it, right? `And as for the first question At least some good guys ? and important ones, too ? have to die, and not just Dumbledore. And, as much as it pains me to say it, Lupin, along with Hagrid, is expendable.' Maria, who never thought that her first visit to TBay would be spent in a prison. From abigailnus at yahoo.com Tue Apr 1 23:14:17 2003 From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 23:14:17 -0000 Subject: TBAY: DIMINISHED CAPACITIES (was: Humpty-Dumptying the Bangs) In-Reply-To: <20030401050843.72313.qmail@web20422.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54666 Cindy and Eileen are just getting ready to toast their recent victory, when a rather begraggled figure appears at the door of the Royal George. Abigail is looking distinctly ruffled. Her many-pocketed coat is scuffed and torn, and there are a few twigs and leaves in her hair. "Abigail!" Eileen calls in dismay. "What are you doing here? You should be halfway to Azkaban by now! I sent my best men to escort you!" "I told them their shoes were untied and ran off before they could figure out they were wearing loafers." Abigail says, still catching her breath. "Incidentally, you might want to look into your hiring practices. I don't think you're getting the best quality." Eileen colors, but rallies quickly. "Well, it doesn't matter, I'll take you to Azkaban myself if I have to!" "Yeah, do you think we could maybe revisit that decision?" Abigail asks, having recovered herself, thanks in no small part to a drink provided by George. "What exactly was I accused of?" "Why, treason, of course!" Eileen cries. "Insinuating that there's such a thing as too many bloody ambushes! Treason to the Big Bang Manifesto!" "And you're sure that's treason, are you?" Abigail says. "Because, last time I checked, I wasn't a crewmember of the Big Bang Destroyer." "Um, Abigail?" Derannimer pipes up, "I don't think that's really an issue that you want to raise..." Belatedly, Abigail remembers that Derannimer is, of course, a card-carrying member of the BBD. "Well, never mind that, I'm not sure you've met your burden of proof." "What burden of proof?" Cindy asks. "There wasn't even a trial. I decided your case myself. And really, you got off easy. I so detest Steady State theories and those who support them that if we were at sea I would have made you walk the plank!" "But I don't support Steady State!" Cries Abigail. "Then what do you call this new..." Eileen spits out the words "DIMINISHED CAPACITY of yours?" "DIMINISHED CAPACITY is a Big Bang theory." Abigail insists. "Why, under Steady State, it would fall apart. DC insists that Bangs are important. So important, in fact, that it is vital to space them and not over-indulge in them, otherwise they become less Bangy, and we end up with a Steady State!" Eileen and Cindy give Abigail two matching sour looks, and then retreat into a huddle. "You don't think there can ever be too much carnage, do you Captain?" Eileen asks. "Theoretically, I suppose it's possible," says Cindy, "but really, do you really think we're looking at that. The problem ahead will be that JKR will be too paring with her carnage. Look at her track record. All those people miraculously spared in CoS. That grand finale was a bit goofy, if you ask me. And in GoF, the great and painful death turned out to be Cedric Diggory. The series needs blood and carnage, to be taken seriously, and we FEATHERBOAS are just acknowledging the fact. She runs no danger of desensitizing us to death, as it stands right now." "But.. but.." Abigail, who has been shamelessly eavesdropping, sputters. "You just proved my point. JKR herself doesn't think that too many Bangs are a good dramatic policy. And I'll tell you what else, you yourself don't think it's a good idea!" "I beg you pardon?" Cindy rears up. "I think I can trust myself to know my own mind, young lady!" "No, wait!" Abigail says. "What are the two plot points that we all least want to see in OotP and the following books? About what devices do people most often say 'if she uses such-and-such I'll really be disappointed'?" Eileen and Cindy refuse to meet each other's eyes for several moments. Finally, Eileen mutters. "Unregistered Animagus and Polyjuice Potion." "Exactly." Abigail says. "And both of those device were only used *twice*. Remember how Bangy they were the first time they were introduced? And now every theory that suggests one or both of them is invariably met with a chorus of 'not that old hat again'." "Wait a minute!" Eileen insists. "You can't equate death to a plot device. The latter is JKR's invention, the former is a fact of life." "But we're not talking about death the ultimate reality." Abigail responds. "We're talking about death as in death scenes, deaths that advance the narrative, people sacrificing their own lives, Harry experiencing death. We're talking about plot devices that *involve* death. Take, for example, the death of someone close to Harry - it's a plot device. If it happens once, it's devastating. If it happens twice, we're very distraught. By the third time, we're so paranoid and, yes, desensitised, that we can't work up the emotion to care. The same dynamic applies to the death of an major bad guy." "But I'm not proposing too many deaths," says Eileen thoughtfully. "I only think Lupin will die. And Dumbledore. And Hagrid. And possibly Snape. And definitely Percy. And Voldemort. And Lucius Malfoy. And Peter Pettigrew. And Mrs. Lestrange. And Fudge will get his soul sucked out by a dementor. And sundry other deaths. That's not too much for three more books, surely?" But if Eileen thought she might stun Abigail into silence, she was sadly mistaken. Abigail all but leaps in the air, and the proceeds to hug Eileen so enthusiastically that she lifts her off her feet. "Abigail!" Eileen sputters. "What's gotten into you?" Abigail puts Eileen down and begins dancing around the room. "Dead!Lupin! Dead!Lupin! You believe in him!" Her eyes are gilttering with excitement. "I thought I was the only one! Oh, do you think you could agree with me that Lupin is the horrible book 5 death? Could ya? Could ya? Huh?" This is too much for Eileen. "Silence!" She cries. "We've humored you long enough! You're going back to Azkaban, where you obviously belong!" "No, I'm not." Says Abigail. "And why," Cindy asks, "may I ask, not?" "I have diplomatic immunity." "What?!" From Eileen and Cindy simultaneously. Abigail smiles, and produces from one of her many pockets a large and slightly mouldy scroll. "Having acknowledged that DIMINISHED CAPACITY is a theory of its own, albeit an offshoot of Big Bang, the TBAY charter grants me full diplomatic protection while theorising under the colors of my own acronym. DIMINISHED CAPACITY may choose to open diplomatic relations with the Big Bang Destroyer, and indeed we'd quite like to, but we neither ackowledge the jurisdiction of the BBD's courts nor do we have an existing extradition agreement." She sticks her tongue out at Cindy. "You can't touch me." "Let me have that." Cindy grabs the scroll roughly from Abigail's hands and scans throught it. "Let me see... paragraph (iii)... second subclause... fifth appendix... Aha!" She rolls up the scroll and smiles sweetly. "Abigail, would you mind telling me what DIMINISHED CAPACITY stands for?" "Of course." Abigail replies. "DIMINISHED CAPACITY - Death In Massive Increments Negates Its Supposed Horror - EveryDay Corpses And Perpetual Atrocities Cause Indifference To amplifY" "I knew it!" Cindy cries. "It's fudged at the end! This," She points derisively at the printout bearing the acronym, "is a sub-standard acronym, and therefore enjoys no dimplomatic privileges." "It's back to the pokey for you, Abigail." Says Eileen gleefully. "Er, excuse me?" Says a newcomer to the Royal George, who has been trying, unsuccessfully, to get herself heard over the ruckus for several minutes. "Who are you?" Asks Cindy. "I'm Corinth." The newcomer replies. "I've been wandering around this place, trying to get my bearings, and I couldn't help overhearing. I was wondering if I might add a suggestion to that acronym. Perhaps making it plural would help the ending." Abigail stares at her in awe and hands her the strip of paper. Corinth begins scribbling furiously. Finally she produces: DIMINISHED CAPACITIES: Death In Massive Increments Negates Its Supposed Horror - EveryDay Corpses And Perpetual Atrocities Create Indifference Towards Increasingly Empty Sacrifices. "There." Abigail says quietly. "Now its perfect." She gazes for a few minutes in fond awe at the strip of paper in Corinths' hands, and then suddenly she yells. "GEORGE! BRING OUT THE BUTTON MACHINE!" A huge contraption, covered in dust and dripping machine oil, is rolled out by George the barman. It takes up an entire corner of ther room. Abigail and George argue furiosly for a few moments, and then George does several mechanical looking things, and pulls a lever. A sound like a cross between an air-raid siren and a lovesick cat pounds into the eardrums of everyone unlucky enough to be within a half-mile radius of the Royal George. Everyone is the saloon covers their ears, but Abigail is the only one who is smiling manically throughout. Finally, after what seems like a million years, the noise stops, and is replaced by a steady chuga-chuga sound, as the machine spits out a pile of small, shiny round objects. "Badges?" Derannimer asks. "All this for some stinkin' badges that say DIMINISHED CAPACITIES?" "That's not all they do." Abigail enthuses. "Look, when you press them, they explain the acronym." She collects the buttons in a box. "OK, there's one for me, and one for you, and you get one too, of course, Corinth. I'll be president, and Derannimer, you can be vice-president, and Corinth will be the secratary. We'll start selling them for two knuts at the pier, everyone will want to join, and..." Eileen gives Cindy a sad look. "I think we may have created a monster." She says. Abigail Who would like to thank Corinth for her timely intervention and welcome her to TBAY From t.forch at mail.dk Tue Apr 1 22:27:40 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 00:27:40 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort & Lily (was: Whose prophecy?) In-Reply-To: References: <3E8877F8.000001.16543@monica> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030401235910.00bd0ee0@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 54667 At 21:55 31-03-03 +0000, Steve wrote: > "Kathryn Cawte" wrote: >> [The meaning of sacrifice] >> K - (Kathryn): >> >> But Harry's protection came from Lily giving her life to protect >> him - if there had been no possibility of Lily being spared then I >> don't see how that would work. Steve: > > It was the fact that she chose to stand and fight to the death > rather than yeild. Not yeild to Voldemort's offer, but to not > yeild in any way, shape, or form under any circumstances. > It's this fierce determination to protect Harry, to love another life, > Harry's, more than you love your own, that left a lingering protection > in Harry. It was the fact that she chose to stand and fight to the > death rather than yeild; to fight against hopeless odd, to defend even > when no defense was possible. How many children would have been equally protected throughout Voldemort's eleven year reign of terror? Can you really make yourself believe that other /all/ other mothers just let Voldemort and his Death Eaters kill their children before being killed themselves (do you have children?) It is made abundantly clear - by both Dumbledore and Voldemort himself - that it was because Lily died to protect Harry that he was in the end protected from Voldemort's Killing curse, and if her death was inescapable anyway, then this situation would not only negate the sacrifice, but it would also make it just one more family killed by Voldemort - nothing special! But we /know/ that something special happened. Despite your attempt to dismiss Harry's Dementor-awakened memories in PoA we /do/ hear Voldemort urging Lily to stand aside - more than once even. Why should he bother which one he killed first if he intended to kill them both? Why waste the time and effort of trying to make Lily stand aside if he ends up killing her anyway? And when it is confirmed by Voldemort's own statements that Lily needed not die then why doubt the evidence of the books? >> Kathryn continues: >> >> There is no suggestion that *James'* sacrifice gave Harry any >> measure of protection even though he clearly made a decision to >> stay and fight rather than try and run. > > bboy_mn: > I can't agree with the statement the Jame's sacrifice gave Harry NO > protection. You may choose not to agree with it, but there is absolutely no indication in canon that he bought his wife and son anything but a little time. >> Kathryn continues: >> >> Whether we could ever seriously expect a parent to accept such an >> offer is totally irrelevent to whether the offer is made seriously. >> > > bboy_mn: > > You are ASSUMING that 'step aside' is an offer, and not a command; > just as I am assuming that it is indeed a command given to someone who > stands between Voldemort and his objective. > > Did he ask her to step aside, or did he tell her to step aside? That is utterly irrelevant! He tried to make her step aside when there was no reason why he should waste his breath on it if he had already decided to use it for a Killing curse for her. He spends far more time arguing with Lily (PoA-9) than it would have taken him to just cast the curse (which he does in the end anyway) - so why spend that time? /Especially/ if she is insignificant. Troels From t.forch at mail.dk Tue Apr 1 22:37:38 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 00:37:38 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron might die! Nah, I think it is Hagrid In-Reply-To: <20030401191921.12666.qmail@web11308.mail.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030402002925.00cd9310@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 54668 At 20:19 01-04-03 +0100, Gildor wrote: >That tells me quite clearly Ron has never really been an >option, nah, I think it is only 3 people who is the >possible character > >1. Hagrid Rowling has in an interview ascertained that Hagrid is going to be around in all the books (that does not, of course, exclude the possibility of him returning as Hagrid the Ghost, but it didn't really sound that way to me). >2. Mrs.Weasley Harry's surrogate mother - that would be bad. >3. Remus Lupin Nice guy with a problem, but not much more - unless the speculation that he in reality is James Potter in the body of Lupin should turn out to be true ... >Hagrid and Lupin would both make horrible deaths, So was the death of Cedric Diggory, according to JKR - I must admit that after reading GoF, I had a feeling of "was that all - was that really the awful death we had been hearing about?" Therefore I tend to take that 'horrible death' somewhat more relaxed - it might be any of the Creeveys or it might be Lavender Brown - there is just no way to tell. Troels From horsegirlaeg at hotmail.com Tue Apr 1 22:47:15 2003 From: horsegirlaeg at hotmail.com (Ali) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 22:47:15 -0000 Subject: Ron might die... maybe not! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54669 Actually, I'm not that "Ali Weasley" that you heard it from. I'm just another loser Ali that loves Ron. :) Now, I looked up yet more meanings. (Sorry If I buy into these things much to easily. What can I say, I fufil my role as idot sidekick. Yet still do my analytical writing as well. ^__^) And at http://www.theninemuses.net/hp/w.html It said: In Arthurian legend, "Ron" is the name of King Arthur's trusty spear. (No, I don't buy into the whole "Running Weasel" theory, thank you very much.)" And this too, makes much sense because Ron's dad is named Arthur. And if I recall, he had some advisors... or something named Fred and George. But of course, everyone is free to believe whatever they wish. I am going niether way, I'll just let it come when it comes. (And if he does die, I'll go cry in my room) And thank you Paul, for being both helpful and honest. Bye for now! ~Ali* ~The idiot sidekick who's screwing up with style!~ --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Richmond Paul-ra9250 wrote: > Ali wrote: > > Running Weasel never lost a game of chess and was killed by his rat > > that was dyed yellow by some of his friends as a joke earlier. > > OK, this is just funny. > > My first thought was that this was an obvious joke, and I was amazed that anyone could believe it. Then I take a look and see that this silly story is posted on at least a dozen websites! It has all the earmarks of an intentionally created hoax, including the fact that this same story is quoted almost word-for-word on all these sites. > > There was one site that had something a little bit different, posted by "Speedball": > > "Uh-huh. In this fantasy novel I read recently, there is this character whose name is much like "Running Weasel". Historically (i.e. according to one of his presumed descendants, Kat Weasley) this guy was supposedly a great warlord and a brilliant military strategist, who also never lost a single game of chess. In the end he was said to have been killed by a rat -- one that had been dyed yellow. The rat knocked down a lamp in his house and burnt the place to the ground, killing Running Weasel." > > Kat Weasley? Is this a character from a fantasy novel? Nope, it's a Harry Potter fan who's posted on several fan sites. Including one where she posted as "Kat and Ali Weasley." > > Wait, wasn't that email from Ali? Aha! > > My only question to Ali: did you invent the hoax, or are you just helping it spread? > > - Paul Richmond From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Wed Apr 2 02:55:01 2003 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 02:55:01 -0000 Subject: Why Voldemort (was Whose Prophecy?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54670 Dave Burgess wrote: we have to remember that Voldemort was at the top of his game. He had been in hiding for a couple of years, and came out to kill Harry and James Ok, this brings out another question I've had for a while. Why did Voldemort come to kill the Potters personally? Why not, "Karkaroff, Crabbe, Goyle, go off those annoying Mudblood lovers"? If, as I suspect (and Dave refuted) it was something to do with a prophecy, was it something he had to do himself? It just seems that most evil overlords rule from a distance. imamommy From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Wed Apr 2 03:11:21 2003 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 03:11:21 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron might die! Nah, I think it is Hagrid Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54671 GildorElf Wrote: That tells me quite clearly Ron has never really been an option, nah, I think it is only 3 people who is the possible character 1. Hagrid 2. Mrs.Weasley 3. Remus Lupin Me: Maybe you've all hashed and rehashed this and will think me a squib for even suggested, but um... What about Dumbledore? Would it be possible for Dumbledore to pass on the knowledge he needs to give to Harry, and then have a final battle with Voldemort before sacrificing himself, Obi-Wan Kenobi style? I know, you're all saying it's too early in the series, but is it? Couldn't the remaining few who were loyal to him carry on? My hubby has another theory, that if someone dies it could be Snape. That would also make an impact, I think, especially if he and Harry were reconciled shortly before. imamommy (who would dearly love to see Draco bucked off his broomstick someday) From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Wed Apr 2 03:31:12 2003 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 03:31:12 -0000 Subject: Harry and the Dursleys Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54672 Gina wrote: What I wonder (and maybe this was in the letter) is how soon they knew Harry was magical. Did they only start to hate him when his magical abilities became apparent? Or the second they saw him at the doorstep? Do they hate him just for his magic? Or for the fact that he was the child of Petunia?s sister, who she hated. Me: Petunia has a quote in SS that is something like, "How could you not be (a wizard), my perfect sister being what she was?" (Sorry I don't have the exact quote) This seems to evidence to me that the Dursleys *assumed* that Harry was magical right from the beginng. Then the did every thing in there power to stifle it. The Dursleys are hilarious because they have *no* sense of humor. One of my favorite scenes is when they are all at the breakfast table and Harry tells Dudley to "say the magic word" and they all three freak out at him. I mean, come on! But in addition to hating magic itself, they lack so many of the qualities that Rowling and her readers embrace: imagination, ingenuity, humor, etc. I mean, most of us are common Muggles, and we embrace Harry's story and identify with him. But the Dursleys are so caught up in wordly, tactile things that they don't seem to really enjoy anything. There's no point to this, I guess, except that I enjoy reading about them simply because they are so absurd. Kind of like Arthur Weasley's fascination with the Muggle community, I suppose. imamommy From hphgrwlca at yahoo.com Wed Apr 2 03:39:24 2003 From: hphgrwlca at yahoo.com (Christine Acker) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 19:39:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Whose prophecy? In-Reply-To: <1049235396.7600.76767.m11@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030402033924.83130.qmail@web13006.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54673 Finwitch wrote: One reason why Voldemort would NOT want to kill Lily: she has saved his life once. Life-debt IS deeply honoured by many wizards. Voldermort being what he is, he might ignore it - arrogance on his part, but that might explain why he'd not just kill off Lily and *then* kill Harry. Now me (Christine): Call me crazy, but I always got the impression that a life debt was not honored by choice, but honored by necessity: it is a magical bond that cannot be broken. I don't have any canon to back this up; it's just what I have always believed it to be. What do you all think? Christine, who is drinking apple juice __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com From happydogue at aol.com Wed Apr 2 04:57:28 2003 From: happydogue at aol.com (happydogue at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 23:57:28 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and the Dursleys Message-ID: <1e9.59f9c00.2bbbc7b8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54674 I think the only way they would like him just a tiny bit is if they got money from he social services department for the care of him as a foster child. He would have to become a ward of the state (crown?) for that to happen. J From iluvgahan at yahoo.com Wed Apr 2 06:36:12 2003 From: iluvgahan at yahoo.com (iluvgahan) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 22:36:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Lily's sacrifice for Harry's (was:Whose prophecy? (was Re: Why Harry?)) Message-ID: <20030402063612.70524.qmail@web13501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54675 Kathryn wrote: But Harry's protection came from Lily giving her life to protect him ....There is no suggestion that *James'* sacrifice gave Harry any measure of protection even though he clearly made a decision to stay and fight rather than try and run. Lily offered her life to save Harry. *Lily* is the one credited with giving Harry the protection so there must be some difference between their sacrifices. Now me: I apologize if this was covered to death or if this suggestion was already brought up, but I am fairly new and I don't recall having seen it, so here goes. I was thinking about *why* James' sacrifice did not account for any protection over Harry (and Lily for that matter) and I keep thinking about that scene in SS when Harry is in Ollivander's Shop, getting his wand. Ollivander makes it a point of saying that James' wand was good for Transfiguration, and we find out later in PoA that James was an Animagus. Ollivander also says, IIRC, that Lily's wand was good for Charms. So I took it to mean that James' holding off Voldemort was not so much giving Lily and Harry a means of escape(although I'm sure that might have been a part of it)but maybe giving Lily a chance to perform a charm over Harry to protect him. Any thoughts or am I way off base? ===== Christina "I solemnly swear that I am up to no good." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com From sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com Wed Apr 2 08:18:17 2003 From: sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com (sevenhundredandthirteen) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 08:18:17 -0000 Subject: Whose prophecy? (was Re: Why Harry?) In-Reply-To: <56263.204.248.21.50.1049228695.squirrel@www.cynjut.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54676 Dave Burgess wrote: (about why Voldemort wanted to kill Harry) > Some people think is was a prophecy of some kind - I don't see anything in > canon that supports that, with the possible exception the cleverly vague > "That's two" for Trelawny. I think it was something mundane. No idea > what yet, but it was definitively something much more like a response to > an immediate threat to Voldemort's powerbase. > Well, on a relevant point, Harry was born on 31st of July. Therefore he was conceived on the 31st of October- Hallowe'en. I wouldn't think it was that significant, except that there seems to be a pattern of significant things happening on Hallowe'en- James and Lily dying is the big one. I think that this would tie in perfectly with a prediction- as in 'a child conceived on Hallowe'en night' is a suitably general, yet specific way of fortelling a great leader in a spooky fortune-telling way. Does it hold any superstitions in pagan beliefs? It also might open up the ideas for Harry being 'bred' as a weapon to defeat Lord Voldemort, but I don't like that theory. I much prefer Trelawney making the "correct" prediction after Lily is already pregnant. I mean, why did Voldemort wait until that night to go after the Potters? Especially considering that for the time before that there *was* no secret-keeper and charm to hide them. So, perhaps Trelawney's 'prediction' only came into things later on, after Harry's birth... ~<(Laurasia)>~ From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Apr 2 08:52:49 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 08:52:49 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Pop (was: the sorting hat problem) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030401230959.00cbd5e0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54677 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Troels Forchhammer wrote: > At 18:06 31-03-03 +0000, Serena Moonsilver wrote: > > This particular issue has been the subject of much (much!) > > debate. Offically, JK has said that there around 1000 students > > at Hogwarts. With 200 in a house, that puts it at 800. Though > > most people arrive at or arround the 280 you mentioned when you > > actually try and calculate it. > > One of the main problems stems from the documentary "Harry > and me" where Rowling shows to the camara a list of 41 > student names, which she tells is the whole of Harry's > year (the pictures are in this groups photo section). > > ...edited.. > bboy_mn: It lists 41 names; you claim they are all the students, I claim that they are merely a list of the characters. What's the difference? There are a lot more students than the ones who get 'face time' in the story. Those who do get face time, that is, their presents is actively acknowledged in the narative, they have speaking lines or are spoken to or are spoken about, or are mentioned by name, are characters. To illustrate this principle, look at the overal student population and think about how many students there might be, then consider how many of them have been specifically mentioned. Example, how many characters are there in Ginny's year? So far all we know about are Ginny and Colin Creevey; they are 'face time' characters, but logic would tell us that their year has more than two students. There are other students in that year who are only vaguely acknowledged, as in Colin sat in the common room with a group of third years (which assumes that he was also a third year). So, the number of students in Colin/Ginny's year is much larger than the number of characters. We could equally assume or suppose that the number of students in Harry's year is bigger than the number of characters in Harry's year. Some may point to Harry's sorting ceremony and say that the students were all named, but Harry's mind wanders while the sorting ceremony is going on. He is looking at other things and thinking about other things. We have no way of knowing that un-named student weren't being sorted during these distractions. > Troels continues: > There is, however, much evidence that Rowling, while an > extraordinarily good writer is considerably more limited > in her mathematical skills. There is the dating issue > > and several other issues (the real world value of a > Galleon would indicate a gold content of less than > 1 gram). > bboy_mn: Are Galleons gold or gold colored? Are Sickles silver or silver colored? Do we know? Precious metal based monetary standards are rarely based on the fair market value of the metal itself. When the USA was on the gold standard, gold on the open market was floating around +$150 an ounce while the monetary value of the gold was locked at something like $30 an ounce. Although I will add that in the 20th Century most of the Gold Standard money was not in the form of gold or silver coins, it was in gold and silver certificates, which eventually gave way to Ferderal Reserve notes, which is what we are using now. > Troels continues: > In the end it might be best to not wonder about it, > because there is no way to make the numbers meet, and > we have several indications that Rowling just hasn't > bothered to make numbers meet at all. > > Troels bboy_mn: Having said that, I will agree with you. While JKR has research her writing more than most authors, I seriously doubt that she every envisioned the likes of us trying to analyse and resolve every little detail. When she said there was a full moon or that Mars was bright, I really don't think she every expected anyone to check and see if it was true. By the way, Mars was relatively bright, but the moon wasn't full. I have said before that JKR really doesn't have any obligation to make all this stuff add up, or to make sure her stories match the star or lunar charts. Her only obligation to the story is to make us believe it when we read it, and I think she certainly has succeeded in that goal. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From basementgirl74 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 2 09:24:36 2003 From: basementgirl74 at yahoo.com (The Sparrow) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 01:24:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Harry and the Dursleys Message-ID: <20030402092436.12311.qmail@web40511.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54678 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "imamommy at s..." wrote: > why *didn't* the Dursley's turn Harry over to an > orphanage? I sure would like a peek at the letter Dumbledore wrote > them. What could he possibly say that would have compelled them to > keep him? And why would they keep him if they never intended to even > try to love him? I love it! Everyone on this site is sooo observant, it really adds extra dimension to reading these books. I've thought about Harry going back to the Dursleys a few times now-pretty much whenever I read it. Especially after the incident with Aunt Marge, when Harry told them he was leaving,and he'd had enough, I thought 'well, that's torn it for him hasn't it?'-but they took him back. My guess is that they didn't want to be seen going to an orphanage-they didn't even like the postman laughing at the Weasleys letter covered in stamps. Maybe Petunia felt a bit of family duty toward her sister. I agree with Finwitch: ....Dumbledore will tell all that to Harry in the next book, I guess - what Dumbledore *should* have told Harry five years ago and only does now, and what Harry should have asked long time ago: "Why do I go back to Dursleys?" - and once he *has* asked that, I honestly doubt he'll go back again! Me: Although I do think Harry will go back to the Dursleys after he learns. I think he'll go back even if he doesn't learn-once he has a place living with Black or the Weasleys secured he'll confront the Dursleys about their behaviour. I've always wondered why he never kicked up more of a fuss actually. He's a good natured boy but he does have a temper about things. Dumbledore always wants him to be there no matter how awfull they are-and I don't think its because they're family, it's more than that. I think there's some sort of protection charm on the house to stop Voldemort and co. from getting to him. That's why the knight bus showed up as soon as he left that night. We all know Arabella is there to look after him too, maybe she's the one holding the charm. Does Voldemort fear her as he fears Dumbledore? On a totally different note- I need to ask if the Crabbe and Goyle at the confrontation with Voldemort at the end of GoF are the same C and G Hary go to school with, or their parents? Can kids be Death Eaters and if so, why isn't Draco one? Is he? I could probably answer all these questions myself but I don't have GoF with me. On another completley different note- I'm wondering about the Bones family. Hagrid says: '......he killed some of the best wizards an' witches of the age- the McKinnons, the Bones, the Prewetts....'CoS chapter four,Aus. edition. Susan Bones was sorted into Hufflepuff in the same year as Harry. Sparrow __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Apr 2 10:03:42 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 10:03:42 -0000 Subject: Voldemort & Lily (was: Whose prophecy?) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030401235910.00bd0ee0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54679 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Troels Forchhammer wrote: > At 21:55 31-03-03 +0000, Steve wrote: > > "Kathryn Cawte" wrote: > >> > > [The meaning of sacrifice] > > >> K - (Kathryn): > >> > >> But Harry's protection came from Lily giving her life to protect > >> him - if there had been no possibility of Lily being spared then > >> I don't see how that would work. > > Steve: > > > > It was the fact that she chose to stand and fight to the death > > rather than yeild ... in any way, shape, or form under any > >circumstances. > > > It's this fierce determination to protect Harry, to love another > > life, Harry's, more than you love your own, that left a lingering > > protection ... > > > Troels continues: > > How many children would have been equally protected throughout > Voldemort's eleven year reign of terror? ... > bboy_mn: Not many I'm thinking. I really don't see that many possible cases where Voldemort came to a wizard's house with the single minded purpose of killing one of the kids. Any kids killed would probably fall into what is referred to as 'collateral damage'. While I'm sure kids were killed, we see from the story that adults were killed more often. If and when kids were killed it was probably an act of terror, and parent were give little or no opportunity to protect them. > Troels continues: > > It is made abundantly clear - by both Dumbledore and Voldemort > himself - that it was because Lily died to protect Harry that he > was in the end protected from Voldemort's Killing curse, ... > bboy_mn: Can't argue with that. > Troels continues: > > ... and if her death was inescapable anyway, then this situation > would not only negate the sacrifice, but it would also make it just > one more family killed by Voldemort - nothing special! > bboy_mn: Can argue with that. Why does it negate the sacrific? You seem to have overlooked a word I used repeatedly and with some attempts at emphasis; that word is 'insignificant'. Whether Lily lived or die was insignificant to Voldemort. In that sense, Lily could have been spared. Since her death had no significants, not only was there no need to kill her, but there was no need to deal with her at all. That is, until she became an annoyance and an obstical between Voldemort and his single minded objective, Harry. If Lily had cowered in the corner paralyzed by fear, she could probably have lived. But she didn't she chose to stand and fight. She chose, as I said before, to put the value of the life of another person above the value of her own life. Even if she hadn't gotten in the way, her life was still insignificant. Kill her or nor kill her, it's all the same to Voldemort. After killing Harry, Voldemort may have killed Lily on his way out as casually as he would brush some lint off of his robes, or he may have walked away and ignore her completely. So the point I dispute is not whether Lily would or wouldn't have been killed but whether Voldemort actually offered to spare her. I say he did not offer to spare her. When he said 'step aside', he was not saing, 'step aside and I will spare you', he was, in his polite British way, saying, 'Get the hell out of my way, I've go more important things to do than screw around with you'. So her life or death was of no consequence, and in that sense, she could have (that's 'could have' not 'would have') been spared. It was this lack of significants to Lily's life that could have spared her, not Voldemort command to get the hell out of the way. This was not a benevolent offer on Voldemort's part. > Troels continues: > And when it is confirmed by Voldemort's own statements that Lily > needed not die then why doubt the evidence of the books? > bboy_mn: The fact that she /needn't/ have died is no a guarantee that Voldemort would have spare her, only that her life was, as I've said too many times already, of no significants. > >> Kathryn continues: > >> > >> There is no suggestion that *James'* sacrifice gave Harry any > >> measure of protection even though he clearly made a decision to > >> stay and fight rather than try and run. > > > > bboy_mn: > > I can't agree with the statement the Jame's sacrifice gave Harry > > NO protection. > > You may choose not to agree with it, but there is absolutely no > indication in canon that he bought his wife and son anything but > a little time. > bboy_mn: My problem here is with your emphatic use of the word 'absolutely'. There is very little indication that James sacrifice was of primary importance in the protection, but I can't accept 'absolutely no indication in canon' as an acceptable statement. I could present canon what weakens your postion, although, I admit I can't present anything that disproves it. So, I will acknowledge that you have a very strong position, I just can't bring myself to accept that you have an absolute position. I think if people weighed in on the value of James contribution to Harry protection, you would find a range of interpretations. > > > > bboy_mn originally said: > > > > You are ASSUMING that 'step aside' is an offer, and not a > > command; just as I am assuming that it is indeed a command given > > to someone who stands between Voldemort and his objective. > > > Troels continues: > > That is utterly irrelevant! > He tried to make her step aside when there was no reason why he > should waste his breath on it if he had already decided to use it > for a Killing curse for her. > > He spends far more time arguing with Lily (PoA-9) than it would > have taken him to just cast the curse (which he does in the end > anyway) - so why spend that time? /Especially/ if she is > insignificant. > > > > Troels bboy_mn: I already covered most of this earlier in this post. Voldemort has one single minded purpose; one highly focused objective, everything else is irrelevant. Lily is irrelevant so he tells her to get out of the way. When she refuses, he kills her and moves on to his primary objective. Others have pointed out that Voldemort doesn't have the greatest attitude towards women. He is very dismissive of them, and that attitude is clear reflected in his encounter with Lily. She is someone to be dismissed; again insignificant. When she makes herself significant, he kills her and moves on. Again, my primary point is that Voldemort is not making an offering to spare Lily for any special reason, or by his good graces, or as an act of benevolence, or as a favor to one of his cronies. He simply doesn't care about her until she forces him to care, then he kills her. "step aside" = "get out of the way" There is a sweet sweet irony here. The very thing that Voldemort dismissed as irrelevant, insignificant, and inconsequential ended up being the very thing that destroyed him. To offer to spare Lily gives her significants and destroys that sweet sweet irony. Just my thoughts. bboy_mn From t.forch at mail.dk Wed Apr 2 08:00:50 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 10:00:50 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily's sacrifice for Harry's (was:Whose prophecy? (was Re: Why Harry?)) In-Reply-To: <20030402063612.70524.qmail@web13501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030402095331.00d0e140@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 54680 At 22:36 01-04-03 -0800, iluvgahan wrote: >Kathryn wrote: > > >But Harry's protection came from Lily giving her life to >protect him ....There is no suggestion that *James'* >sacrifice gave Harry any measure of protection even though >he clearly made a decision to stay and fight rather than >try and run. > > >Lily offered her life to save Harry. *Lily* is the one >credited with giving Harry >the protection so there must be some difference between >their sacrifices. > > > >Now me: >I was thinking about *why* James' sacrifice did not account >for any protection over Harry (and Lily for that matter) Because there was no sacrifice - there was simply a death. James was doomed to die that Hallowe'en - no matter what he did. His death being inescapable all he could do with it was buying his family a bit of time. >but maybe giving Lily a chance to perform acharm over Harry >to protect him. Any thoughts or am I way off base? You may of course choose to disregard Voldemort's statements (he could be lying) when he says that Lily was unwitting about the protection she left in Harry, but I choose to believe him - he has - for an Evil Overlord - been surprisingly candid with Harry (there's the claim that Harry's parents died begging for their lifes in PS, but Harry refutes that and Voldemort immediately tells the truth - then there's the framing of Hagrid, but this was by a 16 year old Tom Riddle, so I'm not sure how much emphasis to put on that - those are the only instances I can recall where Voldemort is known to have lied to Harry). Troels From t.forch at mail.dk Wed Apr 2 08:45:23 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 10:45:23 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Whose prophecy? (was Re: Why Harry?) In-Reply-To: References: <56263.204.248.21.50.1049228695.squirrel@www.cynjut.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030402102242.00d075a0@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 54681 At 08:18 02-04-03 +0000, sevenhundredandthirteen wrote: >Well, on a relevant point, Harry was born on 31st of July. Therefore >he was conceived on the 31st of October- Hallowe'en. The 'nine months' is actually quite a simplification - it's 'close enough,' but not useless for finding the exact date of conception - when they calculated the expected day of birth for my children they added 40 weeks to the first or last (I don't remember) day of the last menstruation. Add to that that natural pregnancies can vary with at least a month in either direction (also the average pregnancy becomes shorter the more kids the woman has had), then it it will be obvious that the nine months is just a nice round figure that is close to the average. That would not, of course, stop Rowling from using exactly nine months /if/ the date of Harry's conception ever becomes important. >I wouldn't think it was that significant, except that there >seems to be a pattern of significant things happening on >Hallowe'en - James and Lily dying is the big one. Precisely. That is the reason Rowling may have chosen an exact nine months pregnancy - because she /wanted/ it to happen on Hallowe'en. If she has not thought about it, then we have a whole range of possible dates - with mid-October being the most likely (and the average). >I think that this would tie in perfectly with a prediction - >as in 'a child conceived on Hallowe'en night' is a >suitably general, yet specific way of fortelling a great leader in a >spooky fortune-telling way. Does it hold any superstitions in pagan >beliefs? The date of conception? That might very well be - I don't know for sure, but I would imagine that it carried some importance. Or Hallowe'en? Hallowe'en is entirely Christian - IIRC it is purely a protestant thing, originally. >It also might open up the ideas for Harry being 'bred' as a weapon to >defeat Lord Voldemort, but I don't like that theory. No, that wouldn't reflect well on James and Lily, would it? And, IMO, it would ... stain Lily's love for Harry, which again wouldn't fit with Dumbledore's explanation in PS. >I much prefer Trelawney making the "correct" prediction after >Lily is already pregnant. I mean, why did Voldemort wait until >that night to go after the Potters? Especially considering that >for the time before that there *was* no secret-keeper and charm >to hide them. So, perhaps Trelawney's 'prediction' only came >into things later on, after Harry's birth... Let's see: Dumbledore told the Potters that Voldemort was after them, and adviced them to go into hiding using the Fidelius Charm - they do so, and then barely a week later Voldemort shows up at Godric's Hollow. Allow a bit of time before word reaches Dumbledore from his spy, and allow a bit of time for the Potters to ready their affairs and the spell - still it can't be much more than about 4 - 5 weeks after Voldemort learned whatever it was that sent him chasing the Potters. The real joker is the time it took for Voldemort to find out (assuming that there is something like e.g. a prophecy to find out) - if it was kept strictly secret, it might have taken him a bit longer. Still, I don't think it's possible to move it back 15 months or more (to before Harry's birth). Troels From gretchen.bakies at prodigy.net Wed Apr 2 05:33:40 2003 From: gretchen.bakies at prodigy.net (Gretchen Bakies) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 00:33:40 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: More questions about Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002601c2f8ea$5e24c920$d0123941@prodigy.net> No: HPFGUIDX 54682 -----Original Message----- From: finwitch [mailto:finwitch at yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 3:15 AM To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin question (was More questions about Sirius) From: finwitch [mailto:finwitch at yahoo.com] Choices... Lupin chose to honour the act of risking everything for friendship long time ago, and I believe that the memory of his animagi-friends has been the only thing that kept him from committing suicide with that gun he has... knowing that sometime someone went to so much trouble just for his sake. -- Finwitch Me: Hi there, Gretchen B (I noticed another Gretchen on the list!) unlurking (delurking?) for the first time. I?ve really enjoyed the list and it?s expanded the way I look at the series. My question is ?what gun?? Did I miss something somewhere? Why would a wizard have a Muggle weapon when they can do so much harm with just their wands, especially someone that is qualified to teach DADA? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From carrie525 at mybluelight.com Wed Apr 2 14:51:18 2003 From: carrie525 at mybluelight.com (Carrie S) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 06:51:18 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Order of the Phoenix (group not title) References: Message-ID: <001201c2f927$531ac7e0$59c35142@net> No: HPFGUIDX 54683 ---- Original Message ----- From: karywick To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2003 6:53 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Order of the Phoenix (group not title) I had a thought and was wondering of if the "Order of the Phoenix" was the name of a society or a secret group chosen by Fawkes by who gets feather from his body parts (not JUST his tail). Carrie: Along these lines, it could include people who have been healed by a Phoenix tear, like Ginny & Harry. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dorigen at hotmail.com Wed Apr 2 14:36:09 2003 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 14:36:09 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron might die! Nah, I think it is Hagrid Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54684 > >1. Hagrid > >Rowling has in an interview ascertained that Hagrid >is going to be around in all the books (that does >not, of course, exclude the possibility of him >returning as Hagrid the Ghost, but it didn't really >sound that way to me). > *breathes heavy sigh of relief* You wouldn't happen to know where I could find that interview, would you? Hagrid is my favorite character, but I've been convinced that he was Wearing The Red Shirt because he seemed the most plausible alternative (I don't believe Ron or Hermione will die, although of the two, Ron seems the most likely). And I don't think it's Dumbledore. People say that it's traditional that one of the hero's mentors should die, but when you get right down to it, Dumbledore hasn't been that much of a mentor -- he hasn't actually taught Harry anything or told him anything (but that's about to change! Oops.). Lupin or Sirius have been much better mentor figures and although I like both of them a lot I could stand either of their deaths better than Hagrid's. While we're talking about Hagrid, I disagree with those who say he has an uncontrollable temper. He yells a lot. He's very emotional. But the only times we actually see him *lose* his temper is when Dumbledore is insulted (the Dursleys and Karkaroff). That's twice in four books. Janet Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From t.forch at mail.dk Wed Apr 2 11:12:23 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 13:12:23 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort & Lily (was: Whose prophecy?) In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030401235910.00bd0ee0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030402120749.00d32100@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 54685 At 10:03 02-04-03 +0000, Steve wrote: > > Troels continues: > > > > How many children would have been equally protected throughout > > Voldemort's eleven year reign of terror? ... > > > >bboy_mn: >Not many I'm thinking. I really don't see that many possible cases >where Voldemort came to a wizard's house with the single minded >purpose of killing one of the kids. Any kids killed would probably >fall into what is referred to as 'collateral damage'. > >While I'm sure kids were killed, we see from the story that adults >were killed more often. If and when kids were killed it was probably >an act of terror, and parent were give little or no opportunity to >protect them. GoF-9 'The Dark Mark' " The floating people were suddenly illuminated as they passed over a burning tent, and Harry recognised one of them - Mr Roberts, the campsite manager. The other three looked as though they might be his wife and children. One of the marchers below flipped Mrs Roberts upside-down with his wand; her nightdress fell down to reveal voluminous drawers and she struggled to cover herself up as the crowd below her screeched and hooted with glee. 'That's sick,' Ron muttered, watching the smallest Muggle child, who had begun to spin like a top, sixty feet above the ground, his head flopping limply from side to side. 'That is really sick ...' " (p. 108, Bloomsbury) " 'Ron, You-Know-Who and his followers sent the Dark Mark into the air whenever they killed,' said Mr Weasley. 'The terror it inspired ... you have no idea, you're too young. Just picture coming home and finding the Dark Mark hovering over your house, and knowing what you're about to find inside ...' Mr Weasley winced. 'Everyone's worst fear ... the very worst ...' " (p. 127, Bloomsbury) " 'The point?' said Mr Weasley with a hollow laugh. 'Harry, that's their idea of fun. Half the Muggle killings back when You-Know-Who was in power were done for fun. I suppose they had a few drinks tonight and couldn't resist reminding us all that lots of them are still at large. A nice little reunion for them,' he finished disgustedly. " (p. 127f, Bloomsbury) Would you mind tell me where in canon you find anything to indicate that any children were spared while Voldemort's reign lasted? I claim that Voldemort and his Death Eaters costumarily killed /everybody/ in the house; men, women and children ("the very worst"). > > Troels continues: > > > > ... and if her death was inescapable anyway, then this situation > > would not only negate the sacrifice, but it would also make it just > > one more family killed by Voldemort - nothing special! > >bboy_mn: > >Can argue with that. Why does it negate the sacrific? As I see it a sacrifice means giving up something that is actually yours - something you would otherwise have been able to keep; there isn't any sacrifice in giving 1000 pounds to a charity if you can deduct everything, because the money would have been lost anyway - you just get to decide who is going to have it. The same way with Lily's life - if all she does is to decide whether to die before or after her son, then there is no sacrifice. >You seem to have overlooked a word I used repeatedly and with some >attempts at emphasis; that word is 'insignificant'. No - I didn't overlook it. I don't believe it. Fortunately we have been promised that we're going to learn more about Lily in OotP - so in 3 months we might know ;-) The argument of course becomes circular - I don't believe that Lily was insignificant, therefore I believe Voldemort when he said he tried to spare her, therefore Lily wasn't insignificant ... The same goes the other way around - the problem is that we don't know enough about Lily to break the chain at any point. >Whether Lily lived or die was insignificant to Voldemort. >In that sense, Lily could have been spared. Since her death >had no significants, not only was there no need to kill her, >but there was no need to deal with her at all. Under the assumption that what Harry hears when under the influence of the Dementors is a correct presentation of the events (the audible part), /I/ don't think that Voldemort treats Lily as someone who is insignificant PoA-9 'Grim Defeat': " At least a hundred Dementors, their hidden faces pointing up at him, were standing beneath him. It was as though freezing water was rising in his chest, cutting at his insides. And then he heard it again ... someone was screaming, screaming inside his head ... a woman ... '/Not Harry, not Harry, please not Harry!/' '/Stand aside, you silly girl ... stand aside, now .../' '/Not Harry, please no, take me, kill me instead -/' Numbing, swirling white mist was filling Harry's brain ... What was he doing? Why was he flying? He needed to help her ... she was going to die ... she was going to be murdered ... He was falling, falling through the icy mist. '/Not Harry! Please ... have mercy ... have mercy .../' A shrill voice was laughing, the woman was screaming, and Harry knew no more. " (p. 134, Bloomsbury) Why not (if Lily really was insignificant): '/Not Harry, not Harry, please not Harry!/' '/Both/ of you, then! /Avada Kedavra!/ >That is, until she became an annoyance and an obstical between >Voldemort and his single minded objective, Harry. I maintain that Voldemort - especially if so obsessed with killing Harry - would have just blasted his way /through/ any obstacle. >If Lily had cowered in the corner paralyzed by fear, she could >probably have lived. Ah - OK - so we agree on that, sorry ;-) Now all we disagree on is /why/ Voldemort would have let her live had she cowered in the corner ;-) >So the point I dispute is not whether Lily would or wouldn't have been >killed but whether Voldemort actually offered to spare her. I say he >did not offer to spare her. When he said 'step aside', he was not >saing, 'step aside and I will spare you', he was, in his polite >British way, saying, 'Get the hell out of my way, I've go more >important things to do than screw around with you'. Well, I guess we will just have to wait for that to be resolved - I don't think there are sufficient evidence in the books to decide one way ot the other. This of course makes much of our discussion rather pointless ;-) so I've snipped those parts ... > > there is absolutely no indication in canon that he bought his > > wife and son anything but a little time. > >bboy_mn: > >My problem here is with your emphatic use of the word 'absolutely'. >There is very little indication that James sacrifice was of primary >importance in the protection, but I can't accept 'absolutely no >indication in canon' as an acceptable statement. I was, I guess, a bit too emphatic here - my apologies. I will maintain that there is nothing in the books to indicate that James bought his family anything but time, but let me hasten to say that there is nothing to refute it either. There are even some passages that can be explained by such a theory, but that does not mean that they imply it. >I could present canon what weakens your postion, although, I admit I >can't present anything that disproves it. What? Pray tell? >So, I will acknowledge that you have a very strong position, I >just can't bring myself to accept that you have an absolute >position. Rest assured that I wouldn't dream of even claiming that - but that other explanations are possible - even probable perhaps - does not mean that /every/ explanation is possible. What is more, I never said anything about the veracity of the idea - I just established my position on it's canonical basis (in admittedly rather strong terms - too strong probably). >bboy_mn: >I already covered most of this earlier in this post. Yes - my bad. I thought we were discussing Lily's chances of survival had she not chosen to protect Harry based on your earlier post: > >> What makes you think Voldemort wanted to spare Lily or that he would have? [...] > >> I don't recall anything in the actual event of Lily and James's death > >> that indicates that Voldemort had any intention of sparing Lily. > >> > >> True, Voldemort said at other times and in other places that Lily > >> didn't have to die but those word suited his needs at the moment. I > >> see nothing in the event or in my analysis of Voldemort's character > >> that makes me believe that his words can be trusted. [...] > >> In the moment of Lily's death, she was nothing more than an annoyance > >> that stood between him and his objective. As soon as he achieved his > >> objective, I have no doubt that he would have killed Lily for no > >> reason other than his initial preception of her; that is, an annoyance > >> to be gotten out of his way. >Others have pointed out that Voldemort doesn't have the greatest >attitude towards women. He is very dismissive of them, I wonder where that came from ... Do you have some references? We know that he is angry with the way his father treated his mother. We know that he had at least one female Death Eater He used Ginny (though dismissive of her feelings - and honestly, I can sympathise with a 16 year old boy being dismissive of the emotional confidences of an eleven-year-old girl without thinking it makes him dismissive of women in general). Do we have any other examples of his treatment of women? (except of course of Lily over whom we don't agree). Troels From BEANNEBOY1 at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Apr 2 11:57:35 2003 From: BEANNEBOY1 at HOTMAIL.COM (beanneboy) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 11:57:35 -0000 Subject: Snape and Dumbledores trust Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54686 It is well documented that Dumbledore trust Snape after his defection back to the light as such. But whilst re-reading PS/SS it occurred to me that does he actually trust Snape as much as he claims, I am sure that this would have been discussed before but the thought occurred before sleep took me last night. - It is common knowledge that Snape wants the defence against the dark arts job. The position has been open no less than 3 times, and soon to be 4. Snape is obviously capable to take the class, due to comments made throughout the book about the in depth knowledge he has in the subject (and well he was a D.E.) - They hired Lockhart because there was nobody else for the job, (Hello!) I am sure that Snape would of been clearing his throat loudly. In fact all of the choices could be considered as controversial, Lupin (werewolf) Moody (Paranoid). Why not Snape? It seems like there is definitely an issue, it would be just the same as replacing a potions master (Snape is very good but that does not mean that he is the only one capable), I am sure he would be equally good if not better in the dark arts position. So it raises for me the following questions.... 1. Does Dumbledore only trust Snape to a point, therefore has he mislead Harry to a degree??? (which I would be reluctant to agree to) 2. Is it not a case of Dumbledore's trust but a issue with the governors, tying Dumbledore's hands? which again I don't think would be a reason, not because the governors might not take that view, but because this is Dumbledore, and a person he really trusts (hmm). You only need to look back to Lupin to know that. 3. Or Finally, was there a deal made when Dumbledore hired Snape, that he would be restricted from going anywhere near the defence against the dark arts position if it ever become available. Maybe they both thought it best, and perhaps Snape does not trust himself? anyway I have bored those who have made it all the way through my post, I am sorry bout the length but I tend to get more ideas as I write. Lee From carrie525 at mybluelight.com Wed Apr 2 15:08:04 2003 From: carrie525 at mybluelight.com (Carrie S) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 07:08:04 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily's sacrifice for Harry's (was:Whose prophecy? (was Re: Why Harry?)) References: <20030402063612.70524.qmail@web13501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002c01c2f929$aabd4020$59c35142@net> No: HPFGUIDX 54687 This whole idea has bugged me since I read SS the first time, and this is the best suggestion yet, I think, that explains why James' sacrifice doesn't get any credit. Anything else just doesn't make sense to me. What also goes along with this theory is other parents must have died trying to protect their children from Voldemort, yet the children don't survive. If they didn't know the Charm and Llily does, or if it only works on Harry because of his lineage, then there you go. Carrie ----- Original Message ----- From: iluvgahan To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 10:36 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily's sacrifice for Harry's (was:Whose prophecy? (was Re: Why Harry?)) Now me: I apologize if this was covered to death or if this suggestion was already brought up, but I am fairly new and I don't recall having seen it, so here goes. I was thinking about *why* James' sacrifice did not account for any protection over Harry (and Lily for that matter) and I keep thinking about that scene in SS when Harry is in Ollivander's Shop, getting his wand. Ollivander makes it a point of saying that James' wand was good for Transfiguration, and we find out later in PoA that James was an Animagus. Ollivander also says, IIRC, that Lily's wand was good for Charms. So I took it to mean that James' holding off Voldemort was not so much giving Lily and Harry a means of escape(although I'm sure that might have been a part of it)but maybe giving Lily a chance to perform a charm over Harry to protect him. Any thoughts or am I way off base? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From grosich at nyc.rr.com Wed Apr 2 15:29:38 2003 From: grosich at nyc.rr.com (Gina Rosich) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 07:29:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape and Dumbledores trust In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030402152938.37972.qmail@web13113.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54688 beanneboy wrote: It is well documented that Dumbledore trust Snape after his defection back to the light as such. But whilst re-reading PS/SS it occurred to me that does he actually trust Snape as much as he claims, I am sure that this would have been discussed before but the thought occurred before sleep took me last night. - It is common knowledge that Snape wants the defence against the dark arts job. The position has been open no less than 3 times, and soon to be 4. Snape is obviously capable to take the class, due to comments made throughout the book about the in depth knowledge he has in the subject (and well he was a D.E.) I don't think it has anything to do with Dumbledore's trust in Snape. The idea that Snape wants the Dark Arts job is, in my mind, a student rumor. We never hear Snape say he wants the job. Furthermore, Hagrid says Lockhart was hired because no one else applied for the job. I assume that to mean it includes Snape not applying for the job. It serves Snape's image to appear interested in the dark arts job. But I think he's detested all the other DADA teachers for non-jealousy reasons. He didn't trust Quirrell with very good reason. Lockhart was simply incompetent. Lupin was a werewolf, and Moody was an old foe. I think Snape would be pleased as punch to have a DADA teacher in their midst who he thought was competent and trustworthy. I think it also serves Snape's image to not be the DADA teacher as he is a double-agent. He can protect his image as a brooding bad guy while a Potions master. But how can he defend teaching the children defense against the dark arts to Voldemort? Crouch!Moody used that position as a ruse to get into the school. But Snape is already there. There's just no easy way for him to reconcile the two roles well. Gina :-) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From urbana at charter.net Wed Apr 2 15:45:38 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 15:45:38 -0000 Subject: Harry and the Dursleys In-Reply-To: <1e9.59f9c00.2bbbc7b8@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54689 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, happydogue at a... wrote: > I think the only way they would like him just a tiny bit is if they got money > from he social services department for the care of him as a foster child. He > would have to become a ward of the state (crown?) for that to happen. > > J Unfortunately for Harry, he's not a foster child - he's their blood relative (Petunia's nephew). I actually think the Dursleys might have treated him better *if* they had been getting some "financial assistance" from the British social service system; perhaps they would have given him more to eat, if not a better "room" in which to live. But since Vernon and Petunia were moreorless forced to take Harry in, and they aren't getting any public assistance, and he's the son of Petunia's "freak" sister and that awful wizard she hooked up with, AND they are absolutely phobic about all things magical, they have always viewed Harry as a freakish burden they are forced to bear. Of course, as we've discovered, living with his blood relatives is part of what protected him from Voldemort (and possibly the DEs) during the decade before Harry discovered he was a wizard. So, while he *might* have had somewhat better living conditions as a foster child than living with the Dursleys, he would have lost that "blood protection" - not to mention that children in foster care often don't stay with the same family for long periods of time. IMO this might have been a logistical nightmare, protectionwise, even for someone as clever and powerful as Dumbledore. So *perhaps*, overall, all things considered [am I actually saying this??!], growing up with the Dursleys was the least bad of all possibilities... Hoping I don't need an asbestos suit now, Anne U ("When life hands you a lemon, make lemonade") From manawydan at ntlworld.com Wed Apr 2 18:09:46 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 19:09:46 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Men from the Ministry References: <1049285695.2861.50174.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002101c2f943$0b652be0$c17d0550@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 54690 Troels wrote: >At 18:48 31-03-03 +0100, manawydan wrote: >>Ministry men like Barty Crouch come across as very much like caricature >>civil servants of the 1920s >The matter of the cauldron bottom thicknesses, and Percy's >general attitude towards his work suggests to me the modern >Brussels civil servant - the EU variety (there isn't, IMO, >far from the thickness of cauldrons to the curvature of >cucumbers ;-) I think that's right. It's a good example certainly of the ubiquity of the MoM and what I see as an unrestrained movement towards increased regulation of the WW - possibly something which was accelerated by the Voldemort rebellion and the increased restrictions on civil liberties that the Ministry had to impose at that time - very easy to become _more_ authoritarian, but far harder to let go afterwards, especially in the absence of any alternative political focus. But I don't think that the MoM's _methods_ - or their image - are as modern. When I think of Barty Crouch I get a mental picture of Mr Cholmondely-Warner from the Fast Show, in line with other "inter-war" images of the WW public sector. The Hogwarts Express is another one which I forgot to mention the first time around - it's a steam train! Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From manawydan at ntlworld.com Wed Apr 2 18:14:53 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 19:14:53 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and the Dursleys References: <1049285695.2861.50174.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002601c2f943$c244a980$c17d0550@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 54691 J wrote: >I think the only way they would like him just a tiny bit is if they got money >from he social services department for the care of him as a foster child. He >would have to become a ward of the state (crown?) for that to happen. They would most certainly have received Child Benefit for Harry, given that they had care of him. I wonder how they explained his non-arrival at the local comprehensive at the beginning of his first term at Hogwarts? They would have had to have (I think) put his name down before sending him and I strongly suspect that the Surrey Education Authority wouldn't have Hogwarts down on their list of authorised educational establishments... Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From rachelwp at attbi.com Wed Apr 2 14:59:59 2003 From: rachelwp at attbi.com (rachelwp at attbi.com) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 14:59:59 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape and Dumbledores trust Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54692 Lee Wrote: - It is common knowledge that Snape wants the defence against the dark arts job. The position has been open no less than 3 times, and soon to be 4. Snape is obviously capable to take the class, due to comments made throughout the book about the in depth knowledge he has in the subject (and well he was a D.E.) Now me: I disagree that it is common knowledge that Snape wants the defense against the dark arts job. I think that it might just be a rumor that circulates among schoolchildren, much as rumors are started about many teachers in a school. We are reading the books mostly through Harry's point of view, so we are only seeing the things he sees in reference to this. At one point, Snape says something like, "I am the potions Master at this school!". He *is* very skilled at potions. Perhaps he is in the position he would really like to be in. -rachelwp From julia at thequiltbug.com Wed Apr 2 19:20:20 2003 From: julia at thequiltbug.com (Calliope) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 11:20:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and the Dursleys Message-ID: <20030402112020.7373.h007.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net> No: HPFGUIDX 54693 Ffred wrote: > I wonder how they explained his non-arrival at the local comprehensive at > the beginning of his first term at Hogwarts? They would have had to have (I > think) put his name down before sending him and I strongly suspect that the > Surrey Education Authority wouldn't have Hogwarts down on their list of > authorised educational establishments... me: I wonder how this works for any Muggle-born kid. Maybe the Department of Mysteries or the Obliviators go in and fake some paperwork, or work some memory charms, or something. For some reason I don't see them wiping out the student's complete existence from the Muggle world; more like faking documentation or something. I don't think Muggle born students would want to completely drop out of the Muggle world; after all that would mean abandoning their families, and that borders on cultishness IMO. So I wonder what they do? --Calliope http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Calliopes_fics/ http://www.thedarkarts.org/authorLinks/Calliope/ http://www.riddikulus.org/authorLinks/Calliope/ From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Apr 2 19:31:05 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 19:31:05 -0000 Subject: Snape and Dumbledores trust In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54694 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "beanneboy" wrote: >> It is well documented that Dumbledore trust Snape after his defection back to the light as such. But whilst re-reading PS/SS it occurred to me that does he actually trust Snape as much as he claims, << It may suit Dumbledore's purpose to let it appear to the world at large that he doesn't trust Snape as much as he actually does and that Snape plays along with the deception. Snape has genuine reasons for being hostile to the Dark Arts teachers, but that doesn't mean it hasn't got some strategic purpose as well. I don't think Dumbledore lies, but I'm very sure Snape does...we've been told so, indirectly, by the Sphinx's riddle. Pippin From a_rude_mechanical at yahoo.com Wed Apr 2 04:04:09 2003 From: a_rude_mechanical at yahoo.com (a_rude_mechanical) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 04:04:09 -0000 Subject: HP and the Stair that Creaks Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54695 When I re-read CoS, I couldn't help noticing that Harry CLEARLY warns Fred and George about the bottom step of the staircase at the Dursleys (when they sneak downstairs to get his trunk out of the cupboard). He tells them "Watch out for the bottom stair--it creaks." I also noticed that the creaky step is CLEARLY included in the film SS. Has anyone else noticed this? Is it going to come up again?? Elisabeth From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Wed Apr 2 18:47:15 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 18:47:15 -0000 Subject: Kid death eaters (was Re:Harry and the Dursleys) In-Reply-To: <20030402092436.12311.qmail@web40511.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54696 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, The Sparrow wrote: > > On a totally different note- I need to ask if the > Crabbe and Goyle at the confrontation with Voldemort > at the end of GoF are the same C and G Hary go to > school with, or their parents? My guess would be that it's their parents. Can kids be Death > Eaters and if so, why isn't Draco one? Is he? I could > probably answer all these questions myself but I don't > have GoF with me. I don't if they can be, most likely yes. However the reason Draco (or any of the other Slytherins) aren't de's is that they came of age after Voldemort's downfall, so he couldn't put his mark on them. > On another completley different note- I'm wondering > about the Bones family. Hagrid says: > '......he killed some of the best wizards an' witches > of the age- the McKinnons, the Bones, the > Prewetts....'CoS chapter four,Aus. edition. > Susan Bones was sorted into Hufflepuff in the same > year as Harry. > Sparrow I remember hearing somewhere that it was Susan's grandparents who were killed. It might of been a theory or a rumor. However, the Bones does not nessicarily indicate Susan's parents. "Serena Moonsilver" From a_rude_mechanical at yahoo.com Wed Apr 2 18:59:53 2003 From: a_rude_mechanical at yahoo.com (a_rude_mechanical) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 18:59:53 -0000 Subject: HP and the Stair that Creaks Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54697 By the way, what's with Colonel Fubster? I never noticed it before, but I was reading PoA yesterday and Marge mentions his name no less than 3 times! (I need to keep off this message board for a while-- it's making me suspicious!!!) Elisabeth From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Wed Apr 2 19:44:34 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 14:44:34 -0500 Subject: Muggle-Born Struggles (was: Harry and the Dursleys) References: <20030402112020.7373.h007.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net> Message-ID: <036201c2f950$4a7581b0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54698 Calliope writes: I wonder how this works for any Muggle-born kid. Maybe the Department of Mysteries or the Obliviators go in and fake some paperwork, or work some memory charms, or something. For some reason I don't see them wiping out the student's complete existence from the Muggle world; more like faking documentation or something. I don't think Muggle born students would want to completely drop out of the Muggle world; after all that would mean abandoning their families, and that borders on cultishness IMO. So I wonder what they do? Me: Wow, ya know I never thought of that before! What do the no-longer-Muggle children tell their Muggle friends? "I'm sorry, we can't be friends anymore because I'm a witch"? Somehow I doubt it. I wonder if they are all forced to lie and leave behind their old Muggle buddies? Now THAT would be a good pretext for a fic...hrmm... ~Katy~ Live in TN, NC, SC or GA? Join the new HP4GU-Southeast-US regional group! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP4GU-Southeast-US/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Wed Apr 2 19:54:39 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 14:54:39 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP and the Stair that Creaks References: Message-ID: <037401c2f951$b2a63760$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54699 Elisabeth Wrote: > When I re-read CoS, I couldn't help noticing that Harry CLEARLY warns > Fred and George about the bottom step of the staircase at the > Dursleys (when they sneak downstairs to get his trunk out of the > cupboard). He tells them "Watch out for the bottom stair--it > creaks." I also noticed that the creaky step is CLEARLY included in > the film SS. > Has anyone else noticed this? Is it going to come up again?? Me: I always assumed that it was simply a quirk about the house that Harry had learned over the years. And he warned them about it so that they would not step on it and wake the Dursley's...something i'm sure he had to avoid doing many times throughout his life. What other significance could it have? ~Katy~ Live in TN, NC, SC or GA? Join the new HP4GU-Southeast-US regional group! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP4GU-Southeast-US/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From t.forch at mail.dk Wed Apr 2 19:55:56 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 21:55:56 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP and the Stair that Creaks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030402215239.00c98be0@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 54700 At 04:04 02-04-03 +0000, you wrote: >When I re-read CoS, I couldn't help noticing that Harry CLEARLY warns >Fred and George about the bottom step of the staircase at the >Dursleys (when they sneak downstairs to get his trunk out of the >cupboard). He tells them "Watch out for the bottom stair--it >creaks." I also noticed that the creaky step is CLEARLY included in >the film SS. > >Has anyone else noticed this? Is it going to come up again?? It is also implicitly mentioned in GoF-02, where, when "Harry listened closely to the silence around him. Was he half expecting to hear the creak of a stair ..." (p. 22 Bloomsbury). When that stair finally /does/ creak, I think I will hide under my pillow ;-) Troels From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Wed Apr 2 19:58:18 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 14:58:18 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Kid death eaters (was Re:Harry and the Dursleys) References: Message-ID: <037f01c2f952$355a2590$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54701 > Can kids be Death > Eaters and if so, why isn't Draco one? Is he? I could > probably answer all these questions myself but I don't > have GoF with me. I don't believe that Draco is one. If you'll remember at the World Cup when the DE's were levitating Muggles in the air and causing havoc, Draco was leaning against a tree watching. The kids walked past him on their way into the forest and if i remember correctly, he told Hermione that she better run because they'd be after her next. If he were a DE, i imagine he'd have been in a cloak burning some tents as well. ~Katy~ Live in TN, NC, SC or GA? Join the new HP4GU-Southeast-US regional group! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP4GU-Southeast-US/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From shutupanakin at yahoo.com Wed Apr 2 20:14:16 2003 From: shutupanakin at yahoo.com (shutupanakin) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 20:14:16 -0000 Subject: HP and the Stair that Creaks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54702 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_rude_mechanical" wrote: > When I re-read CoS, I couldn't help noticing that Harry CLEARLY warns > Fred and George about the bottom step of the staircase at the > Dursleys (when they sneak downstairs to get his trunk out of the > cupboard). He tells them "Watch out for the bottom stair--it > creaks." I also noticed that the creaky step is CLEARLY included in > the film SS. > > Has anyone else noticed this? Is it going to come up again?? > A friend pointed the squeaky stair out to me :) Normally I would just dismiss it as a plain old squeaky stair, but that's no fun. I started thinking and I believe that the Dursleys are much too fussy about appearances and the state of their house (especially Petunia) to let something like a squeaky stair slip. Wouldn't Petunia have had Vernon repair that? I'm thinking that there has to be something hidden under it. If that something happens to be magical maybe that's why the stair squeaks, it wants to be found. I think it could possibly be 1. The letter from Dumbledore that was left with Harry 2. Some sort of heirloom for Harry 3. If Petunia turns out to be a witch (I know there's speculation on that) it coould be where she's hidden her wand. I hope that it does come up again. And I think it will because it goes totally against the Dursley's characters to leave that stair a- squeakin' unless it can't be helped. I wonder how long it's been like that. Hmmmmm. Lillian M. From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 2 20:55:19 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 12:55:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Muggle-Born Struggles (was: Harry and the Dursleys) In-Reply-To: <036201c2f950$4a7581b0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> Message-ID: <20030402205519.34730.qmail@web20007.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54703 --- Katy Cartee wrote: > Calliope writes: > > I wonder how this works for any Muggle-born kid. > Maybe the Department of > Mysteries or the Obliviators go in and fake some > paperwork, or work some memory > charms, or something. For some reason I don't see > them wiping out the student's > complete existence from the Muggle world; more like > faking documentation or > something. I don't think Muggle born students would > want to completely drop out > of the Muggle world; after all that would mean > abandoning their families, and > that borders on cultishness IMO. So I wonder what > they do? > > Me: > > Wow, ya know I never thought of that before! What do > the no-longer-Muggle children tell their Muggle > friends? "I'm sorry, we can't be friends anymore > because I'm a witch"? Somehow I doubt it. I wonder > if they are all forced to lie and leave behind their > old Muggle buddies? Now THAT would be a good pretext > for a fic...hrmm... > > I find it most likely that they just tell their friends that they are going to boarding school. Their friends may think it odd, I admit. But they can still see them over break. We know their families still see them. After all, Petunia certainly saw Lily. It would be my guess that Hogwarts has some sort of cover or cover program that produces school transcripts for muggle-born students. They may alter records and make it look as if those students each went to different schools that really exist, but I think it would be much simpler to have a fictional school. Fewer memories erased, use a little magic so if anyone visits the school it looks to be real, pay a little money in fake taxes, maybe. I don't know how it works with private schools and taxes. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Apr 2 21:25:46 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 21:25:46 -0000 Subject: Voldemort & Lily (was: Whose prophecy?) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030402120749.00d32100@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54704 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Troels Forchhammer wrote: > At 10:03 02-04-03 +0000, Steve wrote: > > > Troels continues: > > > > > > How many children would have been equally protected throughout > > > Voldemort's eleven year reign of terror? ... > > > > > > >bboy_mn: > >Not many I'm thinking. ... > > > >While I'm sure kids were killed, we see from the story that adults > >were killed more often. ... and parents were give little or no > >opportunity to protect them. > > GoF-9 'The Dark Mark' > " The floating people were suddenly illuminated as they passed > over a burning tent, and Harry recognised one of them - Mr > Roberts, the campsite manager. The other three looked as > though they might be his wife and children. > (p. 108, Bloomsbury) bboy_mn: A perfect example to illustrate my point. I never said kids were never attacked. I dispute how often the circumstances were close enough to Harry's to open the posibility for the same 'Love Shield' protection. In the example you sited from GoF and the World Cup, the "parents were give little or no opportunity to protect them (the kids)". I can see lots of occurances of situations like this, and situations where kids were killed, but for the circumstances of Voldemort's attack on Harry and his family to dupicate themselves, I see that as relatively rare. Your other examples confirm what we all know, that DE's and Voldemort are nasty heartless cruel people, and would have had no reservations about killing innocent women and children, but they don't confirm the likelihood of a 'Love Shield' situation occurring. On the issue of Lily's sacrific and whether Voldemort actually offerred to spare her, I guess we have to agree to disagree until the story itself clears up the issue. But I do think that the sweet sweet irony that I mentioned, is enough to give some literary purpose to my interpretations. The thing that Voldemort held in lowest regard, the thing he saw as least important, ended up being the very thing that destroyed him. Typical evil overlord mentality, Voldemort is so swept up in his own grand vision and self-importance that he makes the classic evil overlord mistakes that time and time again cause his defeat. Evil overlord are alway hoplessly doomed by their own misguided irrational thinking. Think about how many times Voldemort could actually have taken over the world, if every plan to do so didn't begin with killing Harry. > ...edited... > > Troels Regarding the value of James sacrifice, I admitted that I can't disprove your position, but I still say many people would argue for the value of his sacrific on general principle. The one segment of canon that was on my mind that hinted at the value of James sacrific was from 'PoA - Snape's Grudge' USA PB pg 290. This is not something I'm fanatic about; I just think the value of James sacrifice is open to debate. Lupin is speaking- "Harry, I can not make you take Sirius Black seriously. But I would have thought that what you have heard when the dementors draw near would have had more of an effect on you. Your parents gave their lives to keep you alive. A poor way to repay them -- gambling their sacrifice for a bag of magic tricks." Reading HP can be very much like reading the Bible, it's way too easy to take general statements and read absolute literal meaning into them. However, Lupin does give value to both Lily and James sacrifice in protecting Harry. Just a few more thoughts. bboy_mn From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Wed Apr 2 20:52:59 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 15:52:59 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HP and the Stair that Creaks References: Message-ID: <03de01c2f959$d90bf400$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54705 > A friend pointed the squeaky stair out to me :) Normally I would > just dismiss it as a plain old squeaky stair, but that's no fun. LOL :) > I started thinking and I believe that the Dursleys are much too > fussy about appearances and the state of their house (especially > Petunia) to let something like a squeaky stair slip. Wouldn't Petunia > have had Vernon repair that? I would agree with that synopsis, BUT remember all the spiders that live in the cupboard under the stairs with Harry? If they were so concerned with their house, you would think that they would exterminate as well. And if they don't mind spiders, i don't guess a squeaky stair would bother them too much either. > I'm thinking that there has to be > something hidden under it. If that something happens to be magical > maybe that's why the stair squeaks, it wants to be found. Now that theory is much more fun than mine...i hope yours is true :) But i'm with Troels...if something makes it squeak, i'm gonna be running for the hills! ~Katy~ Live in TN, NC, SC or GA? Join the new HP4GU-Southeast-US regional group! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP4GU-Southeast-US/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From t.forch at mail.dk Wed Apr 2 21:31:50 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 23:31:50 +0200 Subject: Petunia the Witch (Was: HP and the Stair that Creaks) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030402224834.00ba3f00@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 54706 At 20:14 02-04-03 +0000, shutupanakin wrote: >3. If Petunia turns out to be a witch (I know there's speculation on >that) it coould be where she's hidden her wand. The speculations I have seen so far about Petunia's magical abilities refer to two interviews where Rowling in one says: "There's stuff coming with the Dursleys that people might not expect, but I'm not going to give too much away there if that's OK" and in another she reportedly says: "There is a charecter who manages to do magic very late in life, but this is very rare in the world I am writing about" - I have not been able to find out where that comes from, but it is often cited and combined with the first to provide the basis for the theory that Petunia (or Dudley) will grow magical powers. If anyone knows from where the latter quotation originates, I would be very happy to learn. Troels From GildorElf at yahoo.co.uk Wed Apr 2 21:43:01 2003 From: GildorElf at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Gildor?=) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 22:43:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Snape and Dumbledores trust - don't trust Rowling In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030402214301.74964.qmail@web11301.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54707 I don't belive Snape wants the DAtDA job at all, I think it is simply a rumors. This I came to think about a few weeks ago, and we discussed it over at another mailing list where most seemed to agree with me at the time. Studying the tekst there is no other suggestion that he wants the job except what the children are saying. It is a rumor started by Percy, and he is hardly the most believable of characters. I think that a highly skilled potion master (and he again and again proves his love for the subject) wouldn't want to have such a shifty job as DAtDA job. In SS when they found the petrified cat lockheart says "I'll make it" Lockheart butted in. "I must have done it a hundred times, I could whip up a mandrake restoration drough in my sleep-" "excuse me" said Snape icily, "but I belive I am the potion master in this school" *squirms* one of my favorite parts, oh well anyway this one of many hints that he does not want the job. It is a very Rowling thing to make us belive one thing and I don't trust anything in her book unless it is proven by more than a single persons remark. Another scene that makes me think "hmm maybe not" is when in "PoA" where he teaches the class he corrects the guy about Kappa, but in fact Snape is wrong, he says it is more common in Mongolia but according to Rowlings monster book they are more common in Japan as the girl had said. This means that he wouldn't make a very good DATDA teacher. Also when Harry tells Lupin he wants the job, Lupin says "disgusting" I fist thought that meant he was disgusted by Snape, but rereading it a few times I realize he is commenting on the potion, tasting disgusting. All in all, I don't trust Percy and unless there is a more trusting character like Dumbledore stating it, I for one do not think Snape wants the job Gildor --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail - For a better Internet experience [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From t.forch at mail.dk Wed Apr 2 21:56:02 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 23:56:02 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort & Lily (was: Whose prophecy?) In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030402120749.00d32100@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030402234125.00c9cef0@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 54708 At 21:25 02-04-03 +0000, Steve wrote: Quite a lot, actually ;-) I have been trying to discover the root of our disagreement (I don't really think we are as far from each other as it might appear). As far as I can see, it is in the conditions for the protection of Harry: I claim that it was unwitting on Lily's behalf and that it was necessary that Lily would otherwise have survived (because of the use of the word 'sacrifice' and to distinguish this case from the many others where mothers died to Voldemort and his cronies protecting their kids with their bodies). You believe that it was her defiance that did the trick (possibly with some added conditions, e.g. a spell). If I start with your position in this question, I can easily see the rest of your position following quite logically, so no trouble there. I have only one question left (the rest is answered by the mental exercise I referred to above ;-). You said: >I never said kids were never attacked. I dispute how often >the circumstances were close enough to Harry's to open the >posibility for the same 'Love Shield' protection. Now, what element(s) in the circumstances surrounding the Lily/Harry situation do you believe distinguished them from /all/ other situations? It is (I hope ;-) clear that I believe it was the offer to spare Lily that made the difference, but obviously that is not what you believe. Being myself a parent, I cannot believe that no other parents were willing to fight for the life of their kids (the most horrible thing I could imagine is to survive one of my kids - the thought itself is appalling). Other mothers must have died crouching over their child, protecting it with their bodies to the last second. Troels From the.gremlin at verizon.net Wed Apr 2 22:29:17 2003 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (the.gremlin at verizon.net) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 16:29:17 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape and Dumbledores trust Message-ID: <20030402222917.NBRM1699.pop018.verizon.net@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 54709 Lee wrote: It is well documented that Dumbledore trust Snape after his defection back to the light as such. But whilst re-reading PS/SS it occurred to me that does he actually trust Snape as much as he claims, I am sure that this would have been discussed before but the thought occurred before sleep took me last night. "It is common knowledge that Snape wants the defence against the dark arts job." This as already been debunked by several people. I will just add my 2 knuts and say that I also don't belive Snape ever wanted, does currently want, or will want the DADA job. Him wanting the DADA job is just student rumor, and we've only heard HRH and Percy say Snape wanted the job. I wouldn't take their opinion on Snape, because they have been wrong about him before. "1. Does Dumbledore only trust Snape to a point, therefore has he mislead Harry to a degree??? (which I would be reluctant to agree to)" I don't think DD would purposely mislead Harry to *any* degree. I'm sure he honestly, 100% trusts Snape. He allows him to teach at the school, and he defends him against Harry, Karkaroff/Crouch Sr., and Moody. Harry truly believes that DD trusts Snape, and he wouldn't truly believe that if DD was trying to mislead him. DD doesn't lie, and misleading is as good as a lie. Moody!Crouch (is that the name for him?) also truly believes that DD trusts Snape, as well as Sirius. In fact, because he knows the DD trusts Snape, he was reluctant to believe that Snape had ever worked for V-Mort (Sirius is speaking): "There's still the fact that Dumbledore trusts Snape, and I know Dumbledore trusts where a lot of other people wouldn't, but I just can't see him letting Snape teach at Hogwarts if he'd ever worked for Voldemort." " Maybe they both thought it best, and perhaps Snape does not trust himself?" Good point. Someone did comment while ago (like, months ago) that having Snape teach DADA would be like having an alcoholic bartend (credit to whoever said that, I didn't come up with it). Maybe Snape doesn't trust himself to not fall off the wagon. Maybe he believes that he shouldn't do Dark Arts, after all he's done in his early youth (which goes into whether or not he killed anyone). -Acire http://www.underground-newslet.com The Underground--Fixing your addiction for writing. "So sorry-dozed off-what have I missed?" Prof. Lockhart, Chamber of Secrets [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From patricia at obscure.org Wed Apr 2 22:32:42 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 17:32:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape and Dumbledores trust In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54710 On Wed, 2 Apr 2003, beanneboy wrote: Other people have pointed out that there are no reliable sources saying Snape wants the job, only Percy. Since Percy has no special knowledge of Snape's professional ambitions, I'm not incline to take his word for it. This may be evidence of Percy's willingness to believe anything he's told, rather than evidence that Snape wants the job. I would also ask, though, why placing Snape as the DADA teacher would require any more trust than placing him as potions master. What's so special about DADA? In either job, he's in a position to teach children enormously dangerous information, or to gather information from around the school and pass it on to others. And preventing Snape from filling the DADA job isn't going to stop him from using the Dart Arts if he's so inclined. I just can't see why the DADA professor needs to be even more trustworthy than any other professor at the school. Dumbledore must trust Snape enormously to have made him the head of Slytherin house. As Head of House, he is in a position to closely mentor Slytherin students if he chooses, and to do so out of sight of other students and teachers. I'd say the Head of House position requires a higher level of personal trust than any of the teaching positions. Since Dumbledore chose to give Snape the Head of House position, I have a hard time believing there is any lack of trust there. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From heidit at netbox.com Wed Apr 2 22:39:44 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 22:39:44 -0000 Subject: Muggle-Born Struggles (was: Harry and the Dursleys) In-Reply-To: <20030402205519.34730.qmail@web20007.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54711 > > Calliope writes: > > > > I wonder how this works for any Muggle-born kid. > > Maybe the Department of > > Mysteries or the Obliviators go in and fake some > > paperwork, or work some memory > > charms, or something. Katy wrote: > > Wow, ya know I never thought of that before! What do > > the no-longer-Muggle children tell their Muggle > > friends? "I'm sorry, we can't be friends anymore > > because I'm a witch"? Somehow I doubt it. Rebecca wrote: > I find it most likely that they just tell their > friends that they are going to boarding school. Their > friends may think it odd, I admit. But they can still > see them over break. It's the UK. It's not so odd to attend boarding school in the UK, especially in middle class and upper class households. > It would be my guess that Hogwarts has some sort of > cover or cover program that produces school > transcripts for muggle-born students. They may alter > records and make it look as if those students each > went to different schools that really exist, but I > think it would be much simpler to have a fictional > school. Rebecca - I agree with you that there's likely a cover school, probably handled out of the Ministry, which "processes" things for students who are Muggle-born, or who want to return to the Muggle world. Creating false records is easy enough, and if any inspector needs to visit the school, a memory charm or a bit of complicated magic would allow the Ministry to convince the inspector or offical that she's seen what she needed to, to certify the place. Heidi *Ask me about Nimbus - 2003 - the first international Harry Potter symposium* http://www.hp2003.org From devika at sas.upenn.edu Wed Apr 2 23:28:26 2003 From: devika at sas.upenn.edu (Devika) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 23:28:26 -0000 Subject: Snape and Dumbledores trust In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54712 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Patricia Bullington-McGuire wrote: > > Other people have pointed out that there are no reliable sources saying > Snape wants the job, only Percy. Since Percy has no special knowledge of > Snape's professional ambitions, I'm not incline to take his word for it. > This may be evidence of Percy's willingness to believe anything he's told, > rather than evidence that Snape wants the job. > Just thought I'd add my two knuts... :) I agree with all of you who say that Snape probably doesn't want the DADA job. To me, it seems clear that he both enjoys and is very talented at potions. For evidence of that I need to look no further than the speech he gives to Harry's class at the beginning of the year in PS/SS. Snape obviously has an appreciation for his subject. Also, the fact that he can make the Wolfsbane potion shows his considerable skill, since Lupin says that not many wizards are capable of brewing such a complicated potion. I think that Snape's supposed desire for the DADA job serves as a distraction to the reader. If Snape dislikes the DADA teachers, it seems as though this is due to envy of their job rather than any other reason (although we, as obsessed fans, know better ). In every book so far, Snape has disliked the DADA teacher for a reason that the reader (and Harry) is not meant to find out until the end: PS/SS: Quirrell: Snape doesn't trust him. We don't find out why until the end, and then we realize that Snape's feelings toward him were justified and had nothing to do with the DADA job. CoS: Lockhart: Snape doesn't like him. Sure, neither do many people, but although we suspect that he is incompetent, we don't actually find out that he's been stealing his stories from other wizards until the end of the book. PoA: Lupin: Snape doesn't like him either. In fact, he hates him. We don't find out that Lupin is a werewolf or that he was involved in the infamous Prank until the end of the book. Again, Snape's dislike for him has nothing to do with the DADA job itself. GoF: Moody: Snape doesn't like him, and Harry suspects that Snape is also afraid of Moody. Again, it is mentioned that Snape wants the DADA job, IIRC, and again it turns out that his supposed desire for the job has nothing to do with his dislike for the DADA teacher. In this case, Snape's fear of Moody comes not from a secret about Moody, but about Snape himself. As much as Harry doesn't like Snape, he doesn't know for sure that Snape was a DE until the end of this book. Although Snape's dislike for Moody has nothing to do with Moody's secret, it still has nothing to do with the DADA job itself, and it still leads to a surprising discovery at the end of the book. What am I getting at? Just that Snape's supposed desire for the DADA job serves to distract Harry and the reader from the true reasons for Snape's feelings about the DADA teachers. One way to show once and for all that Snape is satisfied with being the potions master is to have him actually like/respect/get along with the (female!) DADA teacher in OoP. However, if he doesn't like her, at least we'll know that there is something more about her, or about Snape, that will be revealed at the end of the book. --Devika, who is now even more anxiously awaiting June 21st :) From trondmm-hp4gu at crusaders.no Thu Apr 3 00:35:08 2003 From: trondmm-hp4gu at crusaders.no (Trond Michelsen) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 02:35:08 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Petunia the Witch (Was: HP and the Stair that Creaks) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030402224834.00ba3f00@pop3.norton.antivirus>; from t.forch@mail.dk on Wed, Apr 02, 2003 at 11:31:50PM +0200 References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030402224834.00ba3f00@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <20030403023508.J19525@crusaders.no> No: HPFGUIDX 54713 On Wed, Apr 02, 2003 at 11:31:50PM +0200, Troels Forchhammer wrote: > and in another she reportedly says: "There is a charecter > who manages to do magic very late in life, but this is > very rare in the world I am writing about" - I have not > been able to find out where that comes from, > If anyone knows from where the latter quotation > originates, I would be very happy to learn. I've got that one.. --8<-- Q: Will there be, or have there been, any "late blooming" students in the school who come into their magic potential as adults, rather than as children? By the way, I loved meeting you, and hearing you speak, when you came to Anderson's in Naperville. I can hardly wait until you tour again. A: Ahhh! I loved the event at Anderson's. It was one of my favorites. That is completely true. No, is the answer. In my books, magic almost always shows itself in a person before age 11; however, there is a character who does manage in desperate circumstances to do magic quite late in life, but that is very rare in the world I am writing about. --8<-- This was from a chat at Barnes & Nobles 19th march 1999, so it was even before the release of PoA. (Actually, I believe it was before the US release of CoS as well) Unfortunately, B&N has deleted the transcript from their site, and it doesn't seem like Aberforth's Goat has it either. I did grab a copy of it while HPGalleries was still up, though. http://www.crusaders.no/~afhp/interviews/BarnesAndNoble.com%20Chat%20(March%2019,%201999).htm -- // Trond Michelsen \X/ mike at crusaders.no From gandharvika at hotmail.com Thu Apr 3 02:40:14 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 02:40:14 +0000 Subject: (FILK) Quirrell Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54714 A Quirrel filk? Now *that's* something you don't see everyday! Quirrell (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Girl_ by the Beatles) Midi is here: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Studio/7779/beatle10.html Note: During the bridge, the "Didididi" part sung in the background...that's Quirrell stuttering. There was once a brilliant young man who had a stutter He was a professor at Hogwarts He was always afraid and they thought He was a nutter Teaching Defense Against the Dark Arts Ah, Quirrell! Quirrell When Harry thought that Professor Snape was the person Trying to get the stone, he was so sure But all along it was Quirrell 'cause Underneath Quirrell's turban He concealed the Dark Lord Voldemort Ah, Quirrell! Quirrell! All the students there thought that his class Was just a joke, the poor fellow (Didididi....) What his students didn't know His stutter, it was just a show Oh no! Oh! Oh! Ohhhhh! Quirrell! Quirrell He was told by Voldemort that there's No good or evil And Quirrell did believe him when he said There is only power and those to weak to seek it, but still What did he think when he was left for dead? Ah, Quirrell! Quirrell! Quirrell! -Gail B...4 _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From grace701 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 3 03:39:25 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 03:39:25 -0000 Subject: HP and the Stair that Creaks In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030402215239.00c98be0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54715 Troels Forchhammer wrote: > When that stair finally /does/ creak, I think I will hide > under my pillow ;-) Lillian wrote: >If that something happens to be magical >maybe that's why the stair squeaks, it wants to be found. I think it >could possibly be >1. The letter from Dumbledore that was left with Harry >2. Some sort of heirloom for Harry >3. If Petunia turns out to be a witch (I know there's speculation on that) it coould be where she's hidden her wand. Here, Here! Couldn't agree more, Troels! As I read that Ultimate Unofficial Guide to the Mysteries of Harry Potter, they mentioned the creak on the stairs and I am definitely waiting for someone evil to step on that creak. Or, knowing, JKR she'll have us think it's an evil person when in fact it's Hermione visiting Harry. Oops! Did I say that? ;) Seriously, I think it's something we should watch out for. It would be great for the stairs to have more than one purpose. As Lillian, pointed out the stairs could be hiding something, hopefully both the letter from Dumbledore and some info on Petunia! And the other purpose, being that someone is evil is going to creep up the stairs. Yet it goes against the whole Harry is protected while at the Dursleys. Hmmm....oh well, it was just a thought! *shrugs* Greicy, who has realized that if Hermione becomes a prefect both she and Harry know where the prefects' bathroom is, that is if it's a unisex bathroom ;) From burgess at cynjut.net Wed Apr 2 22:53:21 2003 From: burgess at cynjut.net (David Burgess) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 16:53:21 -0600 (CST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily's sacrifice for Harry's (was:Whose prophecy? (was Re: Why Harry?)) In-Reply-To: <002c01c2f929$aabd4020$59c35142@net> References: <20030402063612.70524.qmail@web13501.mail.yahoo.com> <002c01c2f929$aabd4020$59c35142@net> Message-ID: <25741.204.248.21.50.1049324001.squirrel@www.cynjut.net> No: HPFGUIDX 54716 > > This whole idea has bugged me since I read SS the first time, and this > is the best suggestion yet, I think, that explains why James' sacrifice > doesn't get any credit. Anything else just doesn't make sense to me. > What also goes along with this theory is other parents must have died > trying to protect their children from Voldemort, yet the children don't > survive. If they didn't know the Charm and Llily does, or if it only > works on Harry because of his lineage, then there you go. Carrie I think that this view (that Lily cast a charm that would have destroyed Voldemort if he hadn't take some precautions) seems to be consistent with canon. Voldemort's description of it as Ancient Magic in GoF makes sense in this context, as do most of the activities leading up to Voldemort's attempt on Harry's life. Whether it was just good research on Lily's part or heritage on Harry's is something that we will have to wait to see. While love is a powerful force in RL and HP both, I doubt that JKR would make it THAT powerful. Remember her situation at the time she was writing this: divorced, on assitance, "living on a rooftop in the dead of winter in a tent made of tissue paper, rats for dinner every night, ..." :-) Sorry - got carried away. Anyway, Harry's being an orphan was compelling and pivotal to the larger development of the story. This arc of the story ended with the recorporalization of Voldemort. The second arc of the book is clearly about the battle of Voldemort and the forces of evil against Harry, Dumbledore, etal, and the forces of good. How Harry became an orphan (the mechanics, not the actions) may well have been a simple "Magic Happens Here" thing for JKR. There is certainly a huge amount of canon that appears to argue against it, but what if she didn't realize the message she has presented us. Of course, it would have been shortsighted of her to not know how seriously we'd take all of this. /don asbestos suit -- Dave Burgess From ratchick22 at hotmail.com Thu Apr 3 01:11:48 2003 From: ratchick22 at hotmail.com (herm - own - ninny) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 01:11:48 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Kid death eaters (was Re:Harry and the Dursleys) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54717 hi, I'm new here, just found this group last night actually, and I have to say that I've never thought analytically about HP as much as I did just reading today's posts! I'm just sorry I didn't find out about this sooner! Anyway, to keep this from being a pointless post, I do have some ideas to add... > > Can kids be Death > > Eaters and if so, why isn't Draco one? Is he? I could > > probably answer all these questions myself but I don't > > have GoF with me. I think there's a certain age that a wizard must reach before becomming an official DE (ie: getting the mark and the whole shabang). After all, I don't see what use Voldemort would have for young children who are still at school. The job of DE parents is likely to raise children loyal to Voldemort, who believe he is in the right and will join him when they are of age. Also, school aged DE kids are probably encouraged to recruit others to their cause. I say this because of the way Draco first tried to befriend Harry in PS, warning him to make friends with the right sort of people (something Lucius no doubt told Draco in the first place). And again in GoF, when Draco told Harry that he'd chosen the wrong side, implying that he should have joined the DE side when he had the chance. On the other hand, as someone mentioned, Voldemort has been gone for fourteen years, so the only current DE are those that were initiated when he was still in power. There are no *new* DE yet, so perhaps the younger genertation aren't DE simply because they haven't had the chance to join Voldemort before he fell from power, and will do so now that he's back. Remember Barty Crouch Jr? He was a Death Eater, and he was fairly young when he joined, although how young I can't remember. Does anyone know his approx age? dina _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From tammy at mauswerks.net Thu Apr 3 03:04:25 2003 From: tammy at mauswerks.net (Tammy Rizzo) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 22:04:25 -0500 Subject: Trusting Dumbledore (was: Snape and Dumbledores trust) In-Reply-To: <20030402222917.NBRM1699.pop018.verizon.net@localhost> Message-ID: <3E8B5E69.17158.C097575@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 54718 On 2 Apr 2003 at 16:29, the.gremlin at verizon.net wrote: > DD doesn't lie, > and misleading is as good as a lie. I have to step in and add something here. I agree, Dumbledore doesn't lie. You can trust what Dumbledore says to be the truth. But I must say here that, used with cleverness and cunning, truth can be terribly misleading, and Dumbledore is quite good at doing just that. There have been quite a few timesso far when Dumbledore has said something in a very specific way, where his words are perfectly true, but they mean two completely different things, depending on what ELSE you know about the situation. One such is from the end of PoA, when Harry and Hermione have returned from their TimeTurner trek, and Snape is spitting mad about Sirius' escape, and is INSISTING (quite correctly, of course) that Potter was involved. Dumbledore says something like, "Unless you mean to imply that (the kids) could be in two places at once, I think there's no need to bother them further." Every word true, of course, but it doesn't mean what it sounds like. I feel that yes, we can trust every word out of Dumbledore's mouth to be true and correct. That' doesn't mean that we can trust his words to mean what we think they do. Tammy From hphgrwlca at yahoo.com Thu Apr 3 03:48:03 2003 From: hphgrwlca at yahoo.com (Christine Acker) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 19:48:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Harry and the Dursleys In-Reply-To: <1049320389.2715.14156.m14@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030403034803.68320.qmail@web13001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54719 Hello all. I have another idea about why the Dursleys didn't give Harry to an orphanage to add to the growing mushpot: It's canon that Harry is safe while with the Dursleys because of their blood connections. What if that same blood connection *forces* Harry and the Dursleys to stay together? What if the magic and all the protection given to Harry makes it physically and magically impossible for them to live apart (excluding visits-Harry can visit the Weasleys but he can't live with them) until they die or cannot take care of him anymore? Just a wacky idea. Christine, who thanks Fred for the explanation of his signature __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Thu Apr 3 03:58:52 2003 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 03:58:52 -0000 Subject: Wormtail's Wand Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54720 There's been speculation on why Peter doesn't have his wand at the end of PoA, and why he used Voldemort's wand in the graveyard. I was re-reading it this morning, and something in the text struck me: (Fudge Speaking)"...And then he (Peter) went for his wand. Well, of course, Black was quicker. Blew Pettigrew to smithereens..." (PoA, pp. 207-8,Scholastic) This makes me think that to fake his own death, Peter might have had *another* wand, perhaps Voldemort's since he was already defeated, and may have destroyed the one in his robes when he caused the explosion. I realize my theory has a hole: If it was Voldemort's wand, where was it while Peter was a rat? I don't know, but I still think he destroyed his own when he faked his death. Maybe he did use his own wand, but was able to leave it in time for it to be blasted with the rest of his stuff. Anyway, if V's wand winds up back with it's owner in GoF, where has it been hidden, and who took the trouble to hide it after V was defeated? Did Wormtail slip into Gringott's as a rat and hide it in a vault somewhere? More questions I have no answers to. Does anyone have any ideas? imamommy From katydid3500 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 3 06:21:22 2003 From: katydid3500 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 22:21:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape and Dumbledores trust In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030403062122.36811.qmail@web40512.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54721 Patricia Bullington-McGuire wrote: On Wed, 2 Apr 2003, beanneboy wrote: Dumbledore must trust Snape enormously to have made him the head of Slytherin house. As Head of House, he is in a position to closely mentor Slytherin students if he chooses, and to do so out of sight of other students and teachers. I'd say the Head of House position requires a higher level of personal trust than any of the teaching positions. Since Dumbledore chose to give Snape the Head of House position, I have a hard time believing there is any lack of trust there. This just occured to me...what if he gave Snape the Head of Slytherin House position to keep an eye on the DE children. He may be one of the only people on the good side that knows who the DE are. So he knows that Draco, Crabbe and Goyle all come from DE families and maybe he's "mentoring" of them is an attempt to monitor their behavior. This also makes part of me wonder if this may have something to do with all his behavior. If he was nice to Harry, Lucius Malfoy would find out from Draco and when Lucius was still a School governor, he could have gotten Snape fired. Snape may be imitating Draco's behavior to stay in Lucius's good graces because who knows what Lucius would do if Snape was mean to Draco...get Snape put in St. Mungos? Tell Rita Skeeter that Snape was a DE? I know Snape can be sorta mean, but I don't think he's so incompassionate to want to be mean to a mere child...especially a child who was orphaned because of his former leader who he is supposedly fighting against. It just doesn't add up for me..... ~Kathryn, who had now thoroughly confused herself --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From happydogue at aol.com Thu Apr 3 01:03:01 2003 From: happydogue at aol.com (happydogue at aol.com) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 20:03:01 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort & Lily (was: Whose prophecy?) Message-ID: <156.1dcb0d50.2bbce245@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54722 I don't know if this has been discussed or if it even belongs under this topic but... Do you remember when Tom Riddle was described? His description was similar to Harry's. Could it be at all possible that there is a connection to Tom (Voldemort) and Harry? Could Tom (Voldemort) be Harry's grandfather? That could be why Harry's powers are so strong and Voldemort could not kill him. Lily and even Voldemort may not even know this? There could have been a tryst between Harry's grandmother and Tom even though she was a muggle. Just some ideas. J From hieya at hotmail.com Thu Apr 3 04:43:05 2003 From: hieya at hotmail.com (greatlit2003) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 04:43:05 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore Dilemmas Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54723 This is a compilation of the Dumbledore dilemmas I can think of, some of which might have appeared before. I've just listed them, wondering if anyone can notice a pattern (since Dumbledore holds the key to much of Harry's past) 1. Why did Dumbledore suspect someone was betraying the Potters? Did Snape tell him? 2. Why didn't Dumbledore become the Potters' Secret Keeper???? In PoA, McGonagall said that Dumbledore had offered to be Secret Keeper. Why didn't Lily and James take him up on that offer? 3. How did Dumbledore find out that the Potters were dead? Hagrid and Sirius apparently arrived before any of the authorities (magical or Muggle). We know that Sirius suspected something was wrong when he went to Wormtail's house and Wormtail was not home, without a sign of a struggle. 4. How did Dumbledore know how the Potters died? (i.e. that Lily died trying to save her son?) Was he involved in an investigation at the scene of the crime? 5. Dumbledore didn't seem too upset in Chapter 1 of Book 1, when he met McGonagall on Privet Drive. (McGonagall was upset, which might be an indication of her character and her true feelings toward the Potters.)I understand that the rest of the wizarding world was ecstatic that Voldemort was gone, and they did not know the Potters and hence did not feel too upset over their deaths. But Dumbledore had lost some good friends the day before, and he was sitting there eating lemon drops! He also said he had gone to many parties that day. That is a bit sickening. 6. In Book 1, why didn't Dumbledore try to find out who tried to kill Harry during the first Quidditch match? I know he wasn't there, but surely some teacher would have told him? 7. Why did Dumbledore let Harry face Voldie at the end of Book 1? Harry later told Ron and Hermione that he felt that Dumbledore knew everything that was going on, and he thought Harry had the right to face Voldie. Isn't it a bit risky to allow an 11 year old to face a powerful Dark Wizard? 8. Why did Dumbledore allow Harry to compete in the Tournament, especially since he was "reading the signs" like Sirius said? 9. Why didn't DD investigate who put Harry's name into the Goblet? 10. If DD is such a great wizard, why does Voldie keep fooling him?? "greatlit2003" From a_rude_mechanical at yahoo.com Thu Apr 3 05:28:35 2003 From: a_rude_mechanical at yahoo.com (a_rude_mechanical) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 05:28:35 -0000 Subject: Lupin's Secrecy Concerning Padfoot Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54724 From: finwitch [mailto:finwitch at y...] Lupin chose to honour the act of risking everything for > friendship long time ago, and I believe that the memory of his > animagi-friends has been the only thing that kept him from > committing > suicide with that gun he has... > > > Gretchen B. replied to this post and asked "What Gun", and I wondered the same thing when I first read this post. Lupin has a gun? Did I miss something? =) I have issues with Lupin not telling Dumbledore that Sirius was an animagi--I mean, loyalty shmoyalty, this was a man who betrayed (supposedly) Lupin's close friend. I just think it was foolish for Lupin to keep his counsel on this. Of course, Harry does things like this (witholding important information from his superiors) on a regular basis. If he had told Lupin on Halloween that he had seen an enormous black dog near the Dursleys, the story would probably have ended very differently!! Elisabeth (who, like Hermione, believes that copying someone else's is just plain wrong). From t.forch at mail.dk Thu Apr 3 07:45:41 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 09:45:41 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape and Dumbledores trust In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030403091618.00ca41d0@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 54725 At 17:32 02-04-03 -0500, Patricia Bullington-McGuire wrote: >On Wed, 2 Apr 2003, beanneboy wrote: > >possibly not trusting him enough to give him the job> > >Other people have pointed out that there are no reliable sources saying >Snape wants the job, only Percy. Percy may be reliable in the sense of 'dependable,' but putting him in the same sentence as anything meaning 'trustworthy for Harry' is, IMO, an oxymoron ;-) Ron got Scabbers from Percy (this is repeated at least twice at beginning of PoA) Percy adviced Harry to take divination. Percy appears surprised that the Dementors wasn't joining the search for Black at Hallowe'en, and asks if they didn't want to help. Percy makes bets for money he doesn't have Percy didn't believe his own brother when Ron told him that Black had been in the dormitory Percy thinks Crouch 'was quite fond of' Bertha Jorkins Ron is not sure that Percy wouldn't throw any of his family to the Dementors Percy really believes that Crouch is just "taking a well-deserved break" I seriously think that Percy is being consciously portrayed as someone we shouldn't trust. Troels From t.forch at mail.dk Thu Apr 3 07:53:21 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 09:53:21 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily's sacrifice for Harry's (was:Whose prophecy? (was Re: Why Harry?)) In-Reply-To: <25741.204.248.21.50.1049324001.squirrel@www.cynjut.net> References: <002c01c2f929$aabd4020$59c35142@net> <20030402063612.70524.qmail@web13501.mail.yahoo.com> <002c01c2f929$aabd4020$59c35142@net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030403094928.00d1b590@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 54726 At 16:53 02-04-03 -0600, David Burgess wrote: >I think that this view (that Lily cast a charm that would have destroyed >Voldemort if he hadn't take some precautions) seems to be consistent with >canon. That depends ... If Voldemort's statemens concerning these events are accepted as true, then this contradicts his assertion that Lily's protection was unwitting. I do think that it is permissible to discard Voldemort's statements even if I choose to believe them. > Voldemort's description of it as Ancient Magic in GoF makes sense >in this context, The bond between Harry and Pettigrew that is made when Harry saves Peter's life is also described as ancient magic - and there is certainly no spellcasting involved there, rather the whole bond goes against Harry's wishes! Troels From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Apr 3 08:00:10 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 08:00:10 -0000 Subject: HP and the Stair that Creaks/Petunia's magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54727 Lillian: > I started thinking and I believe that the Dursleys are much too > fussy about appearances and the state of their house (especially > Petunia) to let something like a squeaky stair slip. Wouldn't Petunia > have had Vernon repair that? > I'm thinking that there has to be > something hidden under it. If that something happens to be magical > maybe that's why the stair squeaks, it wants to be found. I think it > could possibly be > > 1. The letter from Dumbledore that was left with Harry > 2. Some sort of heirloom for Harry > 3. If Petunia turns out to be a witch (I know there's speculation on > that) it coould be where she's hidden her wand. Now that you mention it, I do think there's something magical under it. "something surprising at the Dursleys" - it might be what's under the stair. Harry was living under the stairs, then all his magical things were in that closet... For 1) I think that Vernon *burned* Dumbledore's letter, much as he did with hundreds of other letters in PS! So no. 2) However, a heirloom - something that was Lily's - might well be there. I've been speculating about Harry finding his mother's 7-lock trunk including lots of stuff. Maybe he finds the keys under the stair, and the keys lead him to find the magical trunk? 3) It might be that Petunia, in a desperate situation, indeed *does* do some magic, but I don't believe she has ever had a wand. "I saw her [Lily] for what she was: a freak!". Why would she have gone and gotten herself a freak-wand? She might do magic if Dudley's in danger, though. Such as some heavy thing about to fall on Dudley, and she does magic to stop the thing; then she'd stare at it disbelievingly, and it'd fall again, because she stopped believing, then she'd stop it again, thinking more of Dudley than her abilities. She'd not cry "Leviosa" - she'd cry NO or something as simple... so Harry might realise that correct incantation isn't important at all! Not Petunia's but Lily's wand might be under the stair. Maybe *both* Harry's parents' wands? To give Sirius a wand while he isn't able to buy one for himself, perhaps? -- Finwitch From t.forch at mail.dk Thu Apr 3 08:02:00 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 10:02:00 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and the Dursleys In-Reply-To: <20030403034803.68320.qmail@web13001.mail.yahoo.com> References: <1049320389.2715.14156.m14@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030403095611.00d0bf00@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 54728 At 19:48 02-04-03 -0800, Christine Acker wrote: > It's canon that Harry is safe while with the Dursleys That part is canon > because of their blood connections. That part is an interpretation. I agree that the blood connection is necessary for the 'ancient magic' that Dumbledore invoked, but that is still an opinion - an interpretation of the book. > What if that same blood connection *forces* Harry and > the Dursleys to stay together? What if the magic and > all the protection given to Harry makes it physically > and magically impossible for them to live apart > (excluding visits-Harry can visit the Weasleys but he > can't live with them) until they die or cannot take > care of him anymore? If that should turn out true then I certainly hope that someone will release them from this bond - I sincerely hope for Harry that he will be allowed to leave the Dursleys when he finishes Hogwarts, and later make his own family and home with his wife and children ;-) Troels From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Apr 3 08:49:09 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 08:49:09 -0000 Subject: Trusting Dumbledore (was: Snape and Dumbledores trust) In-Reply-To: <3E8B5E69.17158.C097575@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54729 Tammy: > I feel that yes, we can trust every word out of Dumbledore's mouth to be true and > correct. That' doesn't mean that we can trust his words to mean what we think they > do. I agree. Dumbledore might err or speak in a way that is true, but his words may not be what they appear to be. Speaking of that, Dumbledore told Harry that there is no spell to undo death, but he has *never* said that death cannot be undone. We might find that there _is_ a way AD knows of, but it isn't a spell! Dumbledore has broken his word at least *once*- when he didn't expell Harry&Ron in the end of CoS. "It seems that sometimes even the best of us must break our word". This is also a case where Dumbledore's earlier words lead Harry&Ron to think that he'd expell them from a school they just saved... Was *that* intentional or not? Word of Truth that's "misleading" is not, IMO, as good as a lie. Not, because it's misleading part comes mainly from the other person jumping to conclusions and *might* be accidental. Not jumping to conclusions is something Dumbledore wants to teach; many people would expect from "I'd like to say few words" that what follows, is speech; instead, Dumbledore says: "Nitwit! Oddment! Blubber! Tweak!" - that *is* few words, but in a very unexpected way... So everyone *knows* that Dumbledore's words may not be what they seem to be... Sirius Black's guilt over persuading James to use Pettigrew - he feels he caused their deaths because of that, although, the *real* traitor was Pettigrew, and the *real* murderer was Voldemort. Still, I did kill(as in cause death to) them - isn't untrue - but most definately not what it seems to be, but Sirius certainly did NOT intend to be misleading! Maybe Dumbledore's words are sometimes misleading, but it is questionable whether he *intends* it! -- Finwitch From GildorElf at yahoo.co.uk Thu Apr 3 08:49:44 2003 From: GildorElf at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Gildor?=) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 09:49:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape and Dumbledores trust In-Reply-To: <20030403062122.36811.qmail@web40512.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030403084944.35939.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54730 Dumbledore must trust Snape enormously to have made him the head of Slytherin house. As Head of House, he is in a position to closely mentor Slytherin students if he chooses, and to do so out of sight of other students and teachers. - don't forget that Snape is also third in charge of the school, if something happens to Dumbledor and McGonagall he is the one that is left with the responsebilety. He shows his loyalty repeatdly, most so when he speaks to Quirrell in book 1. Very well," Snape cut in. "We'll have another little chat soon, when you've had time to think things over and decided where your loyalties lie." He threw his cloak over his head and strode out of the clearing. It was almost dark now, but Harry could see Quirrell, standing quite still as though he was petrified. Where your loyaltie lie.. I have yet to figure out, if he knew Quirrell was the one why they didn't do anything, but oh well.. even in the movie, Snape shows his true colours, when in the end he lecture Lockhart on finding the chamber of secrets. Notice how in every episode when something happens, in the movie, or the book, and Dumbledore apear, McGonagall and Snape is close behind? Wouldnt surprise me if he was his left hand.. and mcgonagall he right :) but I am going away from the subject now so.. there :) "Gildor" --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail - For a better Internet experience [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gingerssnape1966 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 3 14:15:03 2003 From: gingerssnape1966 at yahoo.com (gingerssnape1966) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 14:15:03 -0000 Subject: DE kids In-Reply-To: <20030402092436.12311.qmail@web40511.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54731 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, The Sparrow wrote: (big snip) I need to ask if the > Crabbe and Goyle at the confrontation with Voldemort > at the end of GoF are the same C and G Hary go to > school with, or their parents? Can kids be Death > Eaters and if so, why isn't Draco one? Is he? > Me: I realize that this is an assumption, but I have assumed that they are the parents because (1) JKR would probably not have used those particular names were they not significant, (2) the pair in the graveyard seem as thick at the two at school, (3) the kids are Slytherins, and (4) the kids are not only too young to have become DE's when "he" was still in power (as others have mentioned), but they also could not have apparated to the meeting. We have no cannonical proof that they were at the third task, but even had they been privy to the graveyard meeting (which none of the other DE's seemed to be) and were lurking in the vicinity of Hogsmead waiting to apparate, there is still the fact that they are too young to apparate legally. Not that this would have stopped a DE, but when apparition is discussed at the beginning of GoF, Mr Weasley tells of the danger involved. If Hermione were to learn it early and try to use it, I would believe it, but Crabbe and Goyle? They'd probably splinch and half-land in Parliment. Which could be very interesting. Ginger, who is hoping work is called off today due to the impending blizzard. In April! Imagine that! From gingerssnape1966 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 3 14:34:45 2003 From: gingerssnape1966 at yahoo.com (gingerssnape1966) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 14:34:45 -0000 Subject: Filk: the Know-It-All of Gryffindor Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54732 The Know-It-All of Gryffindor to the tune of the Yellow Rose of Texas Dedicated to Eileen, who filked Dance of the Cucumber far better than I could have, and from whom I blatently stole the "Know-It-All" part, or at least the idea to use it in a filk. OK, everyone! Pick your favourite HP character who you'd like to see shipped with Hermione, and rosin up that bow, cuz it's a hand- clappin', foot-tappin', knee-slappin' Hoedown at Hogwarts! Yee-haw! She was born of Muggle parents, But her blood is oh, so clean. She's a brain that makes the Ravenclaws Turn brilliant Slytherin green. You can go on about Lavender Or sing of Parvati But the Know-It-All of Gryffindor's The only girl for me. She's a whiz at ev'ry subject. She's always in the groove. Her memory's photographic. The pictures even move. Her logic's never failed her, Nor has the library. The Know-It-All of Gryffindor's The only girl for me. She's as loyal as a badger. Has wisdom of an owl. If chips are stacked against her She won't throw in the towel. Whether standing up for werewolves Or setting House-Elves free, The Know-It-All of Gryffindor's The only girl for me. Ginger, who has to admit that she only knows about 2 lines from the Yellow Rose of Texas From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Apr 3 09:52:04 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 09:52:04 -0000 Subject: Snape and Dumbledores trust In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54733 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Devika" wrote: > > PS/SS: Quirrell: Snape doesn't trust him. We don't find out why > until the end, and then we realize that Snape's feelings toward him > were justified and had nothing to do with the DADA job. Snape's dislike of Quirrell and possibly for whoever had the job before him, might be why Percy would think that he wants the DADA job. Snape himself has never expressed he dislikes potions! Quite the contrary, during the first class he makes an expression that he *loves* potions and making them... But as to why Dumbledore trusts Snape... 1)Dumbledore is a firm believer of "innocent until proven guilty" 2)Snape has never been proven to have betrayed Dumbledore's trust in him. 3)Voldemort's DEs gained much by seeding distrust, worst of those times was that you knew not who you could trust So - Dumbledore fights 3) by trusting everyone based on 1). So, I believe Dumbledore trusts Snape, Harry, Ron, Hermione, Sirius, Lupin, Hagrid... anyone, just because he has no reason not to. Of course, this would NOT convince Harry. "it's between me and him" he says, but well, *why* does anyone trust another - honestly, if you ever come to have a need thinking why you trust person X, you do not trust X. Harry distrusts anyone who speaks bad things about his parents. So Harry distrusts: Dursleys who, in addition to having *strong* disapproval of Harry's parents, lied to him about how they died, how "magic doesn't exist", stole his letters, and don't give him any emotional security if they can avoid it, and obviously do everything to keep good image, including telling Harry to pretend he doesn't exist, the lies they tell others... Snape who speaks badly about Harry's Dad despite of James saving his life. Draco Malfoy & other pure-blood bigots, whose disapproval of Muggle- borns *also* includes Harry's Mom! -- Finwitch From t.forch at mail.dk Thu Apr 3 09:53:32 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 11:53:32 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort & Lily (was: Whose prophecy?) In-Reply-To: <156.1dcb0d50.2bbce245@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030403114945.00cffee0@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 54734 At 20:03 02-04-03 -0500, happydogue at aol.com wrote: >Could Tom (Voldemort) be Harry's grandfather? That would be a little difficult with Voldemort being "the last remaining descendant of Salazar Slytherin" wouldn't it? I know that Scholastic are more reluctant to incorporate the changes made to the Bloomsbury editions, but it has been made quite clear that the mention of Voldemort as an 'ancestor' of Salazar Slytherin was an error. Troels (Who frankly thinks that the Scholastic editions should be excluded from canon - as much as any other translation) From t.forch at mail.dk Thu Apr 3 09:58:22 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 11:58:22 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Trusting Dumbledore (was: Snape and Dumbledores trust) In-Reply-To: References: <3E8B5E69.17158.C097575@localhost> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030403115403.00d263e0@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 54735 At 08:49 03-04-03 +0000, finwitch wrote: >Speaking of that, Dumbledore told Harry that there is no spell >to undo death, but he has *never* said that death cannot be >undone. We might find that there _is_ a way AD knows of, but >it isn't a spell! Dumbledore may not have said so, but Rowling has! From the radio interview with WBUR 'The Connection' (about 45 minutes 26 seconds into the program): Lydon: Peter, what is your guess about Lily - the real story about Harry's mother? Peter: Er - I don't really know, but I'm guessing that maybe she is gonna come back alive, maybe in the seventh book or something like that ... JKR: Well, it would be nice, but - I'll tell you something - you - you've raised a really interesting point there, Peter, because when I started writing the books, the first thing I had to decide was not what /can/ do, but what it /can't/ do. I had to set limits on it - immediately, and decide what the parameters are ... and one of the most important I - I decided was that _magic__cannot__bring__dead__people__back to life; that' - that's one of the most profound things, the - the natural law of - of - of death applies to wizards as it applies to Muggles and there is no returning once you're properly dead, you know, they might be able to save very close-to-death people better than we can, by magic - that they - that they have certain knowledge we don't, but once you're dead, you're dead. So - erm - yeah, I'm afraid there will be no coming back fro- for Harry's parents The program home page Direct Real Audio stream; Troels From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Thu Apr 3 15:41:50 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 15:41:50 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore Dilemmas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54736 (Disclaimer: As usual I'm at work and don't have the books by me, so all refrences to cannon are from memory and subject to error). --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatlit2003" wrote: > This is a compilation of the Dumbledore dilemmas I can think of, > some of which might have appeared before. I've just listed them, > wondering if anyone can notice a pattern (since Dumbledore holds the > key to much of Harry's past) > > 1. Why did Dumbledore suspect someone was betraying the Potters? Did > Snape tell him? I think that's been the general assumption/agreement amoung fans. Still, it's not cannon. I believe in SS it's mentioned that Dumbledore had a network spies that kept him informed. So it may have been someone else that tipped Dumbledore off. > 2. Why didn't Dumbledore become the Potters' Secret Keeper???? In > PoA, McGonagall said that Dumbledore had offered to be Secret > Keeper. Why didn't Lily and James take him up on that offer? Oh--this is a good question. The only thing I can think of is that maybe Lily and James thought that they didn't want to burden Dumbledore since he was already busy fighting Voldemort. > 3. How did Dumbledore find out that the Potters were dead? Hagrid > and Sirius apparently arrived before any of the authorities (magical > or Muggle). We know that Sirius suspected something was wrong when > he went to Wormtail's house and Wormtail was not home, without a > sign of a struggle. Most likely, there were magical alarms on the house so if something did happen Dumbledore would be alerted. > 4. How did Dumbledore know how the Potters died? (i.e. that Lily > died trying to save her son?) Was he involved in an investigation at > the scene of the crime? Very Good Question! I think this is one of the things we will find out in OotP. The other thing is that maybe Dumbledore assumed that Lily would die trying to saving Harry, simply by knowing her. > 5. Dumbledore didn't seem too upset in Chapter 1 of Book 1, when he > met McGonagall on Privet Drive. (McGonagall was upset, which might > be an indication of her character and her true feelings toward the > Potters.)I understand that the rest of the wizarding world was > ecstatic that Voldemort was gone, and they did not know the Potters > and hence did not feel too upset over their deaths. Actually, I've gotten the impression that Potters were well known in the wizarding world and there was much mixed emotion. But Dumbledore > had lost some good friends the day before, and he was sitting there > eating lemon drops! He also said he had gone to many parties that > day. That is a bit sickening. Perhaps, but Dumbledore may have gone to the parties out of courtesy. Also, he may have already had his "moment of grief" at the Potters house. The books have shown that he isn't prone the weepy shows of emotion that sometimes plague McGongall (like when in CoS when she caught Harry in halls and thought he was sneaking off to see Hermione). > 6. In Book 1, why didn't Dumbledore try to find out who tried to > kill Harry during the first Quidditch match? I know he wasn't there, > but surely some teacher would have told him? We don't know that he didn't. He may have quietly. Since the books are from Harry's pov he doesn't know everything Dumbledore does. > 7. Why did Dumbledore let Harry face Voldie at the end of Book 1? > Harry later told Ron and Hermione that he felt that Dumbledore knew > everything that was going on, and he thought Harry had the right to > face Voldie. Isn't it a bit risky to allow an 11 year old to face a > powerful Dark Wizard? Which begs another question--why bring the sorcerors stone to Hogwarts in the first place? How did he know that someone (Voldemort) was after it? Was he setting up Harry and Voldemort for their big meeting from the get go? It does certainly seem that way. Was Dumbldore testing Harry or he's getting him ready for everything that happens in the next six books. > 8. Why did Dumbledore allow Harry to compete in the Tournament, > especially since he was "reading the signs" like Sirius said? Honestly, I think he was using Harry for bait. He knew Voldemort was up to something and used Harry to lure him out. > 9. Why didn't DD investigate who put Harry's name into the Goblet? Maybe he did, just like my answer to #6, we just might not be aware of it. > 10. If DD is such a great wizard, why does Voldie keep fooling him?? > A. Nobody is perfect. B. Then there would be no story. Dumbledore would defeat Voldemort. "Serena" From pennylin at swbell.net Thu Apr 3 17:07:46 2003 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny Linsenmayer) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 17:07:46 -0000 Subject: Nimbus - 2003: Fundraiser Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54737 Hi all -- Over the last four years, HP4GU has been the best online source for in-depth, mature discussion of all things Potter. The list has burgeoned to 6,300 members, more than twelve sister and regional lists, and the finest collection of Fantastic Posts essays about HP that one can locate on the web. Regional meetings are no longer so regional. In New York City, Chicago, London, Germany and all over the world in fact, we have met, sometimes in handfuls, sometimes in large numbers. And now, this summer, Harry Potter fans take the next step. More than 400 fans will converge on Orlando, Florida, to create the single largest gathering yet, at the *first ever* symposium centered solely on Harry Potter. But you know all this - or you do if you've been around lately. What you might not know is that Nimbus - 2003 needs HP4GU's help. And HP4GU needs your help. This vitally important first year's symposium - and therefore future symposia - depends on your support. Many people have said things like, "Well, I can't afford Nimbus this year, so I'll wait for next year." We certainly understand if you can't attend this year. But, if you can't go this time, there's an easy way you can help ensure that there is a next time. When the Nimbus - 2003 team formed in June of 2002, they envisioned an event that would set the tone. They saw the groundwork for future events, perhaps even eventually large enough to rent our own castle in Scotland for a long week-end. If event after event can prove our sincerity and our integrity, then perhaps we will win the respect of WB, JKR's agents, and even JKR herself. We could position this chain of symposia to become the official convention for adults, and possibly even become the preferred symposium for pursuit of the books. But without fan support, none of that can happen. Corporate sponsorship, which the event's organizers believed would be a natural source of funding, has not materialized as anticipated. Even corporations with significant ties to HP merchandise have been uninterested. The Nimbus - 2003 team attributes this to changing relationships of licensees to WB, the struggle of an unhistoried, untested event, and of course the general economy and world situation. Despite their hope that they would be able to supplement registrations with corporate contributions and lift the burden from the fans, the team finds themselves in need of grassroots assistance. Since Nimbus is the event that HP4GU inspired, they have turned to us, as well as the corners of the fandom, for that help. That is why, in addition to lending its reputation and support to Nimbus - 2003, we at HP4GU would like to make that support financial and be an official Nimbus "Symposium Sponsor." Nimbus offers Symposium Sponsorhip at the level of $15,000 (USD). That sounds like a lot. But remember how we said that the list boasts over 6,000 members? That means that if only half of you are able to donate $5 apiece, HP4GU can realize its goal. If you can give more, please give more, because we know there are those among you who cannot give any, much as you might like to. This sponsorship would pay for: ** Internet cafe, so that attendees and presenters can connect with HP fans around the world who are unable to attend Nimbus - 2003. Cost includes computer rental and internet access costs. [$5,000] ** Coverage of honoraria, hotel, and airfare for the Special Guests, including: Judith Krug, Connie Neal, John Granger, Philip Nel, and Roger Highfield [$3,500] ** Coverage of the Judith Krug Keynote Luncheon (Judith Krug is the Director of the Office of Intellectual Freedom for the American Library Association and will speak on the subject of censorship and book banning, with reference to Harry Potter in particular) [$3,000] ** The Farewell Breakfast on Sunday [$2,500] ** Welcoming Feast and Meet-and-Greet on Thursday night [$1,000] Moreover, for those of you who are U.S. taxpayers, your donation to the HP4GU Nimbus - 2003 sponsorship may be tax-deductible. HP Education Fanon, Inc., the company created to oversee these periodic recurring symposia, has been granted tax-exempt 501(c)3 status as an educational organization. That means your contribution carries the same advantages to you as a donation to your local charity of choice. We hope you will be part of the only event to grow out of the excellent, deep, shocking, and hilarious conversations you've enjoyed online. Be part of the vision shared by list member, elf, geist, and moderator alike. Even if you can't attend - even if you will - you have a chance to help make Harry Potter history. With your help, we can continue to prove that HP4GU is one of the best HP communities around - on the Web, or in person. With your help, that reputation will only be heightened, through the contact with and exchange between fans and academics and professionals who are equally enamoured of the books and all they represent. Plus, you'll be helping to create an amazing reality which for some will reinforce - or *create* - longstanding friendships and new communities. To make a donation, simply send funds via paypal to: hpfgu-donate at hp2003.org Or, if you prefer, you may send your donation (whether in US funds or other currency) to: Harry Potter Symposium - 2003 PO Box 18769 Rochester, NY 14618-0769 We hope that whether you can join us or not, you will consider making a contribution to show your support - not just for this year's event, but to ensure the future of any other similar conferences brought to you on behalf of *your* email list: HPforGrownups. Yours in anticipation of Nimbus - 2003, The HP4GU Moderators P.S. Don't forget, only $5 from you will do the trick! Follow this link (http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/nimbus-2003) to contribute to a Nimbus - 2003 Symposium Sponsorship today! From urbana at charter.net Thu Apr 3 18:21:35 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 18:21:35 -0000 Subject: FILK: National Library Week Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54738 In honor of National Library Week (April 6-12 this year in the United States) here's a short filk about censorship. National Library Week To the tune of the last verse and refrain of "National Brotherhood Week" by Tom Lehrer http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Lagoon/7139/tomfoolery.html Oh some people hate the Harry Potter books, call them "contrary" To beliefs people "should" carry, Say they're books kids shouldn't read But during National Library Week, National Library Week Couldn't they open their minds and turn the other cheek? They shouldn't vote to ban Books they haven't scanned "Please rectify your ignorance," we plead -- Not less, but MORE, H-P is what we need! *** Anne U (who hates censorship, especially by people who don't know what they're talking about!!) From manawydan at ntlworld.com Thu Apr 3 18:55:46 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 19:55:46 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dem Bones References: <1049320389.2715.14156.m14@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000801c2fa12$a317da80$c17d0550@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 54739 Serena wrote: >> On another completley different note- I'm wondering >> about the Bones family. Hagrid says: >> '......he killed some of the best wizards an' witches >> of the age- the McKinnons, the Bones, the >I remember hearing somewhere that it was Susan's grandparents who >were killed. It might of been a theory or a rumor. However, the >Bones does not nessicarily indicate Susan's parents. I didn't actually associate Susan Bones with the Bones that Hagrid refers to in the first book (wouldn't he have described them as the Boneses if their names were Bones rather than Bone). The allusion that struck me about the Bones that Voldemort killed is that (almost certainly by pure coincidence) that two of the leading contributors to Witchcraft in the UK in modern times were also named Bone (Rae and Gavin of that ilk, no relation to each other as it happens). I'm sure this is pure synchronicity btw... Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From jodel at aol.com Thu Apr 3 18:59:43 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 13:59:43 EST Subject: Snape and Dumbledores trust Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54740 Lee points out; << - It is common knowledge that Snape wants the defence against the dark arts job. >> Common Knowledge, like the public, is sometimes an ass. In point of fact, it appears only to be student rumor that claims that Snape wants the DADA job. Snape's opening speech is enough to make it very clear that he sincerely CARES about his precious Potions. What seems most likely is that while he manages at least a modicum of respect for his fellow house heads and most of the rest of the staff, he shows very little hesitation over sharpening his tongue at the expense of the DADA teachers. And the students draw a straight line between two points and attribute it to wanting the job himself. My own suspicion is that he he and Dumbledore have a philosophical difference of oppinion over whether an effective defense against the Dark Arts can actually be taught without a grounding in the Dark Arts themselves. Dumbledore, for his part is scraping the bottom of the barrel so badly in trying to fill the position by wanting to hire only candidates who do NOT have a background as practitioners of the Dark Arts, themselves (although he shaded the line there with Lupin, who is, after all, a Dark Creature). Severus sneers at this notion, (which, you must admit is a safe enough subject in which he CAN openly sneer at a notion of the Headmasters') he sneers at the people Dumbledore hires, and throughly enjoys watching them fall on their faces. When they do. He detests Lupin, but does not actually sneer at him, and there was no sneering at "Moody", either. Just a lot of warriness and dislike. He is well aware that his own background as a Dark wizard disqualifies him for the position in Dumbledore's eyes, even if he did want it. Which he really doesn't. But he does really LIKE to have someone that it's safe for him to sneer at, and these Johnny-come-lately DADA upstarts make excellent targets. -JOdel From trondmm-hp4gu at crusaders.no Thu Apr 3 22:41:58 2003 From: trondmm-hp4gu at crusaders.no (Trond Michelsen) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 00:41:58 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Trusting Dumbledore (was: Snape and Dumbledores trust) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030403115403.00d263e0@pop3.norton.antivirus>; from t.forch@mail.dk on Thu, Apr 03, 2003 at 11:58:22AM +0200 References: <3E8B5E69.17158.C097575@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030403115403.00d263e0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <20030404004158.G20342@crusaders.no> No: HPFGUIDX 54741 On Thu, Apr 03, 2003 at 11:58:22AM +0200, Troels Forchhammer wrote: >> Speaking of that, Dumbledore told Harry that there is no spell >> to undo death, but he has *never* said that death cannot be >> undone. We might find that there _is_ a way AD knows of, but >> it isn't a spell! > Dumbledore may not have said so, but Rowling has! > From the radio interview with WBUR 'The Connection' (about > 45 minutes 26 seconds into the program): [...] > The program home page > > Direct Real Audio stream; > Oh, I split this interview up in one piece per caller a while ago. I originally meant to transcribe it, but it was a bit too much work, and I *cough* am a bit too lazy :) http://www.crusaders.no/~afhp/interviews/connection/ You'll find this particular caller here: http://www.crusaders.no/~afhp/interviews/connection/25.%20Peter%20(caller%20%2310).mp3 -- // Trond Michelsen \X/ mike at crusaders.no From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Thu Apr 3 19:02:21 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 14:02:21 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dem Bones References: <1049320389.2715.14156.m14@yahoogroups.com> <000801c2fa12$a317da80$c17d0550@f3b7j4> Message-ID: <027e01c2fa13$8e8cf400$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54742 Ffred wrote: > I didn't actually associate Susan Bones with the Bones that Hagrid refers to > in the first book (wouldn't he have described them as the Boneses if their > names were Bones rather than Bone). Have you ever known Hagrid to be someone to worry with proper grammar? ;) But come to think of it..."Bones" would be proper for either name. Bone plural would be Bone's and Bones plural would be Bones'...so it could be either one. ~Katy~ Live in TN, NC, SC or GA? Join the new HP4GU-Southeast-US regional group! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP4GU-Southeast-US/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From patgruenke at cloudnet.com Thu Apr 3 22:30:52 2003 From: patgruenke at cloudnet.com (gruenke) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 22:30:52 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore Dilemmas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54743 > > 2. Why didn't Dumbledore become the Potters' Secret Keeper???? In > > PoA, McGonagall said that Dumbledore had offered to be Secret > > Keeper. Why didn't Lily and James take him up on that offer? Wow, you posed some EXCELLENT questions! My two knuts on the Secret Keeper question is that it might be physically difficult to be (or to become) a Secret Keeper, and Lily and James didn't want to endanger Dumbledore in any way. (Any Robert Jordan Wheel of Time fans out there? Oath rod? That's what made me think of this.) And, of course, the LOGICAL thing would be to just destroy the Stone. But, that would be a very boring book! Perhaps only the creator of the stone can destroy it, and Flamel wasn't ready to do that yet. Anyone else out there "know" anything about a philospher's stone? Gruenke From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Apr 3 23:30:39 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 23:30:39 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore Dilemmas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54744 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gruenke" wrote: > > > 2. Why didn't Dumbledore become the Potters' Secret Keeper???? In > > > PoA, McGonagall said that Dumbledore had offered to be Secret > > > Keeper. Why didn't Lily and James take him up on that offer? > > Wow, you posed some EXCELLENT questions! My two knuts on the Secret > Keeper question is that it might be physically difficult to be (or to > become) a Secret Keeper, and Lily and James didn't want to endanger > Dumbledore in any way. (Any Robert Jordan Wheel of Time fans out > there? Oath rod? That's what made me think of this.) > > ...edited... > > Gruenke bboy_mn: If you recall Sirius was planning to get lost when he became the Secret Keeper. That is, he was going to go away, move to America or Asia, or somewhere outside the influence of Voldemort. That way, Voldemort could never find him a get the secret out of him. Even after switching the Secret Keeper to Pettigrew, Sirius was planning to get lost in order to keep the Death Eaters suspecting that he was indeed the Secret Keeper; he was going to be a decoy. Dumbledore on the other hand was a very prominent high profile person at the forefront of the fight against Voldemort, he was hardly in a position to 'get lost'. So, I suspect that James and Sirius decided against Dumbledore because it was too much of an imposition, and because Dumbledore was too actively involved in the war. It would seem wise to choose a Secret Keeper that was going to be safe, and secluded. Just a thought. bboy_mn From flamingstarchows at att.net Thu Apr 3 23:36:25 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (FlamingStar Chows) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 17:36:25 -0600 Subject: Dumbledore Dilemmas References: Message-ID: <008301c2fa39$d8191ec0$991b570c@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 54745 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatlit2003" > 7. Why did Dumbledore let Harry face Voldie at the end of Book 1? > Harry later told Ron and Hermione that he felt that Dumbledore knew > everything that was going on, and he thought Harry had the right to > face Voldie. Isn't it a bit risky to allow an 11 year old to face a > powerful Dark Wizard? I don't think he *let* Harry face him alone intentionally. He was halfway to London when he realized he should be back at Hogwarts. Besides, this is from Harry's point of view. While Harry told them he thought Dumbledore knew everything that was going on, we don't have Dumbledore's point of view to know exactly what he did know. Besides, I think Harry is a much braver and more resourceful kid than anyone could have anticipated. Everyone else is afraid to even say Voldemort's name, but Harry would rather face him than wait for him to come and get him. Who would expect that from an 11 year old? Much less making it through the all of the obstacles (with the help of H/R, of course) to the stone to face him. > 8. Why did Dumbledore allow Harry to compete in the Tournament, > especially since he was "reading the signs" like Sirius said? I don't think they had any choice. It was stated several times that once a name was selected by the Goblet it was a magical contract. There was no backing out of it. They probably didn't expect Harry to do as well as he did, though...probably thought he would just need to be saved by the wizards on hand to make sure no one died. ~Cathy~ From d_lea25 at yahoo.ca Fri Apr 4 01:37:45 2003 From: d_lea25 at yahoo.ca (Lea) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 20:37:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Kid death eaters (was Re:Harry and the Dursleys) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030404013745.6704.qmail@web13005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54746 herm - own - ninny wrote: >Remember Barty Crouch Jr? He was a Death Eater, and >he was fairly young when >he joined, although how young I can't remember. Does >anyone know his approx >age? >dina Me: According to the memories in Dumbledore's Pensieve, Crouch Jr was in his late teens when he was brought before the Council of Magic. I believe he would have recently completed Hogwart's and from his reaction, it would seem that he hadn't been with the DE's very long - at least not long enough to become as cold and thick-skinned as some of the others. This would probably make him in his early to mid-30's during GoF. The only question in my mind is exactly when that trial occurred - how soon after the fall of Voldemort? He may even be in his late 20's in GoF, depending on when that trial took place. Any ideas? Lea _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... 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Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From patricia at obscure.org Fri Apr 4 03:14:19 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 22:14:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dem Bones In-Reply-To: <027e01c2fa13$8e8cf400$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54747 On Thu, 3 Apr 2003, Katy Cartee wrote: > Bone plural would be Bone's and Bones plural would be Bones'...so it > could be either one. Er, no. You're thinking of the possessive. There are no apostrophes in plural forms. For example: one boy, two boys; one glass, two glasses. That said, I think it is unlikely that JKR would introduce two unconnected families, one named "Bone" and one named "Bones." There would be no point in doing that unless she were purposely trying to mislead us, and so far we have seen and heard so little about Susan Bones and the dead Bones that it doesn't seem like she's trying to lead us anywhere (yet). ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From urbana at charter.net Fri Apr 4 04:38:16 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 04:38:16 -0000 Subject: Filk: the Know-It-All of Gryffindor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54748 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gingerssnape1966" wrote: > The Know-It-All of Gryffindor to the tune of the Yellow Rose of Texas > > Dedicated to Eileen, who filked Dance of the Cucumber far better than > I could have, and from whom I blatently stole the "Know-It-All" part, > or at least the idea to use it in a filk. > > > OK, everyone! Pick your favourite HP character who you'd like to see > shipped with Hermione, and rosin up that bow, cuz it's a hand- > clappin', foot-tappin', knee-slappin' Hoedown at Hogwarts! Yee-haw! > > She was born of Muggle parents, > But her blood is oh, so clean. > She's a brain that makes the Ravenclaws > Turn brilliant Slytherin green. > You can go on about Lavender > Or sing of Parvati > But the Know-It-All of Gryffindor's > The only girl for me. > > She's a whiz at ev'ry subject. > She's always in the groove. > Her memory's photographic. > The pictures even move. > Her logic's never failed her, > Nor has the library. > The Know-It-All of Gryffindor's > The only girl for me. > > She's as loyal as a badger. > Has wisdom of an owl. > If chips are stacked against her > She won't throw in the towel. > Whether standing up for werewolves > Or setting House-Elves free, > The Know-It-All of Gryffindor's > The only girl for me. > > > Ginger, who has to admit that she only knows about 2 lines from the > Yellow Rose of Texas Very clever! The Know-It-All of Gryffindor's the girl I'd want to be ;-) Anne U (it scans perfectly too) From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Fri Apr 4 06:29:25 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 01:29:25 EST Subject: FILK: It is the book you can't put down Message-ID: <6b.dff20f4.2bbe8045@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54749 "It is the book you can't put down " To the tune of: It is the song that never ends From: Lamb Chop Dedicated to: Anyone who has ever written a filk in 1 minute during an inspired moment of boredom. Harry: (spoken) Dangerous? How could it be dangerous? Ron: You'd be suprised. Some of the books the Ministry's confiscated-Dad's told me-there was one that burned your eyes out. And everyone who read Sonnets of a Sorcerer spoke in limericks for the rest of their lives. And some old witch in Bath had a book that you could never stop reading!..." (Cue music) It is the book you can't put down You carry it all over town Some witch she Started reading it, not knowing what it was And she just kept on reading it forever just because.. (Repeat forever) (Sometime later...) Harry: All Right! I've got the point. ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Fri Apr 4 06:33:14 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 01:33:14 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] FILK: It is the book you can't put down Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54750 heh-had to fix a spelling error ^^; "It is the book you can't put down " To the tune of: It is the song that never ends From: Lamb Chop Dedicated to: Anyone who has ever written a filk in 1 minute during an inspired moment of boredom. Harry: (spoken) Dangerous? How could it be dangerous? Ron: You'd be surprised. Some of the books the Ministry's confiscated-Dad's told me-there was one that burned your eyes out. And everyone who read Sonnets of a Sorcerer spoke in limericks for the rest of their lives. And some old witch in Bath had a book that you could never stop reading!..." (Cue music) It is the book you can't put down You carry it all over town Some witch she Started reading it, not knowing what it was And she just kept on reading it forever just because.. *Repeat forever* (Sometime later...) Harry: All Right! I've got the point. ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aesob at yahoo.com Fri Apr 4 07:25:52 2003 From: aesob at yahoo.com (Alex) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 07:25:52 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's wand (was Re: Wormtail's Wand) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54751 imamommy said: > Peter might have had *another* wand, perhaps Voldemort's since he was already defeated... > if V's wand winds up back with it's owner in GoF, where has it been hidden, and who took the trouble to hide it after V was defeated? It seems to me that Voldemort's wand was out of commission for quite some time because the priori incantatem seems to show only a few _recent_ events, going back as far as Bertha Jorkins (I believe, not having GoF in front of me), then jumps way back in time to to Lily & James' demise. It certainly is a troubling issue, from a plot and timeline standpoint... Where was Voldemort's wand? Perhaps when Voldemort was vanquished, the wand went to some special place (if he'd meddled with immortality, why not multidementional wand teleportation in case of trouble?) OR perhaps it was retreived by someone else who was at the Potter house that night--perhaps Wormtail, as he was the secret keeper--and he had hidden it before the face-off with Sirius and retreived it only when he went to search for his master. OR perhaps it was retrieved during the investigation after the incident, but was found by a DE (or stolen by one) and put in a special place for Voldemort's return. All three of these ideas have possibilities, but none works perfectly (I won't bother poking holes in my own theories as they're fairly obvious). Perhaps JKR has a valid explanation for how the wand came back to Voldemort when he didn't have it before, but (pardon me as I bash her plotlines, though) I think the main reason for the wand's sudden unexplained appearance is that JKR created the priori incantatem plot concept for GoF (even thought the seed was planted as early as book 1, I don't think the details were thought through until she wrote book 4), and...she suddenly realized she needed to get Voldemort's wand back in his hand for battle with Harry. Maybe it really doesn't matter where it was. JKR puts it in Wormtail & Voldemort's posession when they need it. But this brings up another problem...if that was the only wand that Wormtail had access to, well...wizards seem to rely on their wands for a lot of things on a _daily_ basis, but it seems that only a few spells come out of Voldemort's wand before the Lily & James appear, so if this was the only wand that Wormtail and Voldemort had during the _entire_ schoolyear, wouldn't more spells have come from it? Especially if Wormtail had been using Voldemort's wand to subdue Moody and Crouch Sr? Maybe Wormtail did have another wand, but wasn't using it during the ceremony that brings Voldemort's body back? Well, I can't make sense out of it. Perhaps someone else can... P.S., I think that the only reasons that Cedric is killed by Wormtail with Voldemort's wand are (1) because Voldemort doesn't have the capability to use his wand yet, so (2) Wormtail has to do it, because (3) Cedric needs to be present during priori incantatem to (4) communcate to Harry to take his body back and to (5) give Harry some closure with Cedric's death. But...again, maybe I'm way off base... ~~aesob, who really does love the books, and JKR, and her plotlines, even though they don't seem to be perfectly thought through... From RSFJenny19 at aol.com Fri Apr 4 03:43:53 2003 From: RSFJenny19 at aol.com (Jenny) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 03:43:53 -0000 Subject: Is Big Brother Watching? (about the MoM) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54752 What is it that allows the MoM to ascertain when and where magic is being used? And, if they can detect magic, why can they not tell *who* is doing the magic? Some interesting points to note from the books: In CoS, the MoM dispatched a letter to Harry mere minutes after a Hover Charm was used in the Dursley home. However, it wasn't Harry who did the spell, and the MoM seemed unaware of this fact. (Possible answer: one of a house-elf's powers?) In GoF, Ron talks about the mysterious explosions that have been coming from F&G's room for some time. Now, granted, canon does not directly say F&G were using magic, so the possibility lies that they made potions, but Ton-Tongue Toffee was made with an Engorgement Charm, and unless they made it at Hogwarts before they left for the holiday, they used magic at home to create it. Yet no letter was delivered to the Weasley home from the MoM regarding this. Is this perhaps because the Weasleys are a wizarding family and it was unknown that an underage wizard did the spells? (Refuting the possibility of making it at Hogwarts before holiday is the obvious point that if they had, why didn't they "test" it on a student at Hogwarts? And since they'd been waiting to use it all summer,Bill or Charlie could not have done the charm for them since they had not been around all summer) Just how does the MoM keep track of underage wizards from wizarding families if they cannot tell who is doing the magic? Is there any way to tell an underage wizard has used magic? This whole area seems uncharted territory and I wonder how J.K. plans to explain this. We know they keep tabs on people who apparate as well, as described in GoF when Mr. Weasley talks about the couple unauthorized to apparate who splinched themselves. Knowing those things, how are they unable to detect when, say, Voldemort kills Bertha Jorkins or the old man at the Riddle house? And how did they not know Moody!Crouch killed and transfigured his father at Hogwarts? (Possibly, Dark Magic is hidden from their knowing?) But then, does this explain how Dumbledore knew so quickly the Potters had been killed? I know there are other such examples, but those are the ones that are currently standing out in my mind. J.K. Rowling said in an interview with Raincoast Book in March 2001 (interview is on muggle.net) that "Wizards don't really need to use the Internet but that's something that you'll find out later on in the series. They have a means of finding out what goes on in the outside world that I think is more fun than the Internet." Now, I'm not sure if by "outside world" she means the muggle world or just the world outside in general, so I don't know if this is relevant to the topic. If this has been discussed before, I'd love a point in the direction of the posts so I can read them! Jenny, who is very happy to have found this group :) From hieya at hotmail.com Fri Apr 4 05:49:24 2003 From: hieya at hotmail.com (greatlit2003) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 05:49:24 -0000 Subject: Trusting Dumbledore (was: Snape and Dumbledores trust) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030403115403.00d263e0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54753 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Troels Forchhammer wrote: > At 08:49 03-04-03 +0000, finwitch wrote: > > >Speaking of that, Dumbledore told Harry that there is no spell > >to undo death, but he has *never* said that death cannot be > >undone. We might find that there _is_ a way AD knows of, but > >it isn't a spell! > > Dumbledore may not have said so, but Rowling has! > > From the radio interview with WBUR 'The Connection' (about > 45 minutes 26 seconds into the program): > Lydon: Peter, what is your guess about Lily - the real story > about Harry's mother? > Peter: Er - I don't really know, but I'm guessing that maybe she > is gonna come back alive, maybe in the seventh book or > something like that ... > JKR: Well, it would be nice, but - I'll tell you something - you > - you've raised a really interesting point there, Peter, > because when I started writing the books, the first thing I > had to decide was not what /can/ do, but what it /can't/ do. > I had to set limits on it - immediately, and decide what the > parameters are ... and one of the most important I - I > decided was that _magic__cannot__bring__dead__people__back > to life; that' - that's one of the most profound things, the > - the natural law of - of - of death applies to wizards as > it applies to Muggles and there is no returning once you're > properly dead, you know, they might be able to save very > close-to-death people better than we can, by magic - that > they - that they have certain knowledge we don't, but once > you're dead, you're dead. > So - erm - yeah, I'm afraid there will be no coming back > fro- for Harry's parents > I think that the ending of PoA was not in accordance with the rules JKR set initially. If Buckbeak can come back from the dead, why shouldn't Harry's parents be able to do so? Harry was able to save himself, Sirius and Hermione only after he came back from the future and saved himself initially. Does that make sense? How did Harry arrive across the lake in the first place if he was about to be attacked by the dementors? Logically, he should not have been able to save himself. I wouldn't want to dismiss this situation as simply "magic" because a lot of other tragedies could have been prevented if the victims (or their friends) had an access to a Time Turner. If this situation had occurred consistently in the books, I would have dismissed it as inexplicable. But that the fact that the books attempt to be logical with an occasional illogical situation makes me disappointed...oh well. The story is great anyway :) "greatlit2003" From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Apr 4 08:41:28 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 08:41:28 -0000 Subject: Lupin's Secrecy Concerning Padfoot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54754 > Elisabeth: > Of course, Harry does things like this (witholding important > information from his superiors) on a regular basis. If he had told > Lupin on Halloween that he had seen an enormous black dog near the > Dursleys, the story would probably have ended very differently!! Harry saw no reason to. People *can't* tell others everything, no matter how trusting they are. It's always a summary based on what one considers important. Harry doesn't tell - partly because being open with Dursleys has unpleasant consequences, partly because he doesn't realise it's important... "Oh, by the way, I saw a big dog here and there..." - why would he tell Lupin? Children don't exactly go round telling their teachers they've seen dogs or cats in places where dogs and cats might well hang around... And on Lupin not telling about Sirius/Peter/James being animagi, well, *they* never told about him being a werewolf as far as he knew. Human thinking isn't always logical - (and wizards aren't usually good at logic) but associative. Lupin associates Sirius' secret dog- animagus to the concept of friendship with extremely strong emotions. So strong they can't be reasoned away. Lupin might have reasoned Sirius to be the traitor (because the rat was too weak for Voldemort to want him?) but emotionally he never believed it of Sirius. The Wolf can't believe another canine animal to betray the pack. Moony can't believe that Padfoot would be traitor, as much as his reason told him so... -- Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Apr 4 09:24:28 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 09:24:28 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's wand (was Re: Wormtail's Wand) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54755 : ~~aesob: > It seems to me that Voldemort's wand was out of commission > for quite some time because the priori incantatem seems to > show only a few _recent_ events, going back as far as Bertha > Jorkins (I believe, not having GoF in front of me), then jumps way > back in time to to Lily & James' demise. It certainly is a troubling > issue, from a plot and timeline standpoint... > > Where was Voldemort's wand? Perhaps when Voldemort was > vanquished, the wand went to some special place (if he'd > meddled with immortality, why not multidementional wand > teleportation in case of trouble?) OR perhaps it was retreived by > someone else who was at the Potter house that night--perhaps > Wormtail, as he was the secret keeper--and he had hidden it > before the face-off with Sirius and retreived it only when he went > to search for his master. Well, I'd think that Wormtail hid it! Hagrid and Sirius were busy grieving about James and Lily and arguing about who takes Harry, so they didn't *notice* a little rat going away with a wand for a while. However, Sirius probably *did* notice him after a while, so he gave up Harry and the motorcycle to Hagrid and went after him. Pettigrew then yells loudly, speaking as if Sirius had killed James and Lily, casts that explosion spell (With his wand behing his back) He cuts off his finger with the *same* spell, then does the rat- summoning spell, transforms and runs into the sewer. His concentration not at it's best, he only transforms with what he had under his robe (where he kept Voldemort's wand) He probably hid Voldemort's wand into the sewer, just in case he was caught. He hears them arrest Sirius safely in the sewer while he wonders how to get rest, food etc... Since Muggle's were involved, Arthur Weasley might have come there in business... Probably he found a little rat and decided it would be a nice pet for Percy... -- Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Apr 4 09:48:15 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 09:48:15 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore Dilemmas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54756 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatlit2003" wrote: > 7. Why did Dumbledore let Harry face Voldie at the end of Book 1? > Harry later told Ron and Hermione that he felt that Dumbledore knew > everything that was going on, and he thought Harry had the right to > face Voldie. Isn't it a bit risky to allow an 11 year old to face a > powerful Dark Wizard? Dumbledore knew that Harry's wand is brother to Voldemort's AND what that means. And, Voldemort wasn't all *that* powerful. Still, I don't know if letting Harry to do it is what he did. He did forbid the third floor (and just giving Harry the invisible cloak doesn't mean he'd *allow* Harry to go there); there was Fluffy to guard the entrance - then you had to be able to make yourself relax on Devilsnore, get that key and trough the door, win at chess, solve a riddle and finally, show that you only want to *find* the stone! (One thing Voldemort couldn't have done!)... > 8. Why did Dumbledore allow Harry to compete in the Tournament, > especially since he was "reading the signs" like Sirius said? No he didn't Allow it - ageline would have kept Harry out - the Goblet did. And binding magical contract had already bound Harry to Tournament, so Dumbledore was NOT making decision here. > 9. Why didn't DD investigate who put Harry's name into the Goblet? How do we know he didn't? And even so, he probably trusted the Auror Moody to do it for him, as aurors DO such thing all the time? -- Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Apr 4 08:11:45 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 08:11:45 -0000 Subject: Harry and the Dursleys In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030403095611.00d0bf00@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54757 > > Christine wrote: > > What if that same blood connection *forces* Harry and > > the Dursleys to stay together? What if the magic and > > all the protection given to Harry makes it physically > > and magically impossible for them to live apart > > (excluding visits-Harry can visit the Weasleys but he > > can't live with them) until they die or cannot take > > care of him anymore? Troels: > If that should turn out true then I certainly hope that > someone will release them from this bond - I sincerely > hope for Harry that he will be allowed to leave the > Dursleys when he finishes Hogwarts, and later make his > own family and home with his wife and children ;-) > Quite - If it is *forced*, I hope it will end. However, as Harry did leave Dursleys in PoA, I doubt the ancient magic *forces* him to stay. I think it's more like being safe from vampires at home, because they can't come in without invitation. And, well, if it doesn't require blood-relatives, Harry *might* be able to have the protection with Sirius, too! And er - how *close* do those relatives need to be? Someone - like - Great-...- great- grandfather's sister's descendant? If it's required to be a born blood-relative. Sirius and James were close at Hogwarts, the best of friends - they didn't share a biological parent, but it is possible that they have grown together as if they were brothers - or that they *were* brothers in every other sense but sharing a biological parent. Like milk-brothers (breast-fed by same woman), blood-brothers(by a ritual), growing up closely together(social brothers)... None would show in a record, but Sirius would remember... -- Finwitch From t.forch at mail.dk Fri Apr 4 10:28:55 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 12:28:55 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Big Brother Watching? (about the MoM) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030404122215.00cfde10@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 54758 At 03:43 04-04-03 +0000, Jenny wrote: >What is it that allows the MoM to ascertain when and where magic is >being used? And, if they can detect magic, why can they not tell >*who* is doing the magic? Some interesting points to note from the >books: > >In CoS, the MoM dispatched a letter to Harry mere minutes after a >Hover Charm was used in the Dursley home. However, it wasn't >Harry who did the spell, and the MoM seemed unaware of this fact. >(Possible answer: one of a house-elf's powers?) I strongly suspect that the ministry isn't capable of actually detecting anything. The letter says that "We have received intelligence that a Hover Charm was used ..." - nothing there to say from where that intelligence came. Did Dobby tell them? (Sending the letter in the same way as the feasts at Hogwarts are sent up from the kitchen?) Was someone keeping an eye on Harry - someone who wouldn't mind if he got into trouble? Or is someone at the Ministry of Magic keeping a close watch on Privet Drive 4 for any use of magic, but without the ability to see who casts that magic? I have done a longer treatment of these things at Troels Forchhammer From t.forch at mail.dk Fri Apr 4 10:43:11 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 12:43:11 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Trusting Dumbledore (was: Snape and Dumbledores trust) In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030403115403.00d263e0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030404122917.00d09860@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 54759 At 05:49 04-04-03 +0000, greatlit2003 wrote: >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Troels Forchhammer > wrote: > > JKR: Well, it would be nice, but - I'll tell you something - you > > - you've raised a really interesting point there, Peter, > > because when I started writing the books, the first thing I > > had to decide was not what /can/ do, but what it /can't/ do. > > I had to set limits on it - immediately, and decide what the > > parameters are ... and one of the most important I - I > > decided was that _magic__cannot__bring__dead__people__back > > to life; that' - that's one of the most profound things, the > > - the natural law of - of - of death applies to wizards as > > it applies to Muggles and there is no returning once you're > > properly dead, you know, they might be able to save very > > close-to-death people better than we can, by magic - that > > they - that they have certain knowledge we don't, but once > > you're dead, you're dead. > > So - erm - yeah, I'm afraid there will be no coming back > > fro- for Harry's parents > > > >I think that the ending of PoA was not in accordance with the rules >JKR set initially. If Buckbeak can come back from the dead, Buckbeak does /not/ come back from the dead! He was never killed/executed! Harry, Ron and Hermione misinterpreted the situation when they first heard the sounds. PoA-16 'Professor Trelawney's Prediction' and the start of PoA-17 'Cat, Rat and Dog': " The rat was squealing wildly, but not loudly enough to cover up the sounds drifting from Hagrid's garden. There was a jumble of indistinct male voices, a silence, and then, without warning, the unmistakable swish and thud of an axe. Hermione swayed on the spot. 'They did it!' she whispered to Harry. 'I d-don't believe it - they did it!' " Harry's mind had gone blank with shock. The three of them stood transfixed with horror under the Invisibility Cloak. The very last rays of the setting sun were casting a bloody light over the long- shadowed grounds. Then, behind them, they heard a wild howling. 'Hagrid,' Harry muttered. Without thinking about what he was doing, he made to turn back, but both Ron and Hermione seized his arms. " (p. 243f, Bloomsbury) And then PoA-22 'Hermione's Secret': " There was a swishing noise, and the thud of an axe. The executioner seemed to have swung it into the fence in anger. And then came the howling, and this time they could hear Hagrid's words through his sobs. 'Gone! Gone! Bless his little beak, he's /gone/! Musta pulled himself free! Beaky, yeh clever boy!' " (p. 294, Bloomsbury) It really should be clear that it is the exact same sounds they hear both times - only the second time they hear it, Harry and Hermione are much closer and have some special knowledge so now they can interpret the sound correctly. Nothing that happens in chapter 22 'Hermione's Secret' changes *any* *one* *single* *thing* in the preceding chapters. Troels From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Fri Apr 4 14:49:18 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 06:49:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dem Bones In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030404144918.98082.qmail@web40507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54760 Patricia Bullington-McGuire wrote: That said, I think it is unlikely that JKR would introduce two unconnected families, one named "Bone" and one named "Bones." There would be no point in doing that unless she were purposely trying to mislead us, and so far we have seen and heard so little about Susan Bones and the dead Bones that it doesn't seem like she's trying to lead us anywhere (yet). Me: Barnes and Noble interview: "matiaskanfunfa: There is a girl named Susan Bones who was sorted in the first book, and there was a family called the Bones that Voldemort tried to destroy. Is this a coincidence, or will Harry meet her in future books? JR: Susan Bones's grandparents were killed by Voldemort!" So, yeah, they're related. Maria --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From katydid3500 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 4 14:52:55 2003 From: katydid3500 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 06:52:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Trusting Dumbledore (was: Snape and Dumbledores trust) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030404145255.15231.qmail@web40502.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54761 JKR: "I decided was that magic__cannot__bring__dead__people__back to life; that' - that's one of the most profound things, the - the natural law of - of - of death applies to wizards as it applies to Muggles and there is no returning once you're properly dead, you know, they might be able to save very close-to-death people better than we can, by magic." greatlit2003 wrote: I think that the ending of PoA was not in accordance with the rules JKR set initially. If Buckbeak can come back from the dead, why shouldn't Harry's parents be able to do so? Me: Well technically, I wouldn't say he came back from the dead. With the Time Turner, they went back and changed the past...so to everyone else, Buckbeak never died. And secondly, though I know this isn't the technacality JKR would use for Buckbeak, she said death applies to *wizards* as it does to muggles, not magical beasts. So she never addressed the Buckbeak issue. greatlit2003:Harry was able to save himself, Sirius and Hermione only after he came back from the future and saved himself initially. Does that make sense? How did Harry arrive across the lake in the first place if he was about to be attacked by the dementors? Me: Hmm, well Harry didn't bring himself back from the dead, he just used magic to save himself in the first place, so this doesn't really apply. Cause JKR said that magic can be used to save people very close to death. I think Harry saving himself in PoA is what made her so (searching for a word) shaky maybe at that part. I think she was genuinely trying to say something that wouldn't be contradictory to the books. greatlit2003: I wouldn't want to dismiss this situation as simply "magic" because a lot of other tragedies could have been prevented if the victims (or their friends) had an access to a Time Turner. Me:Well, that's why Time Turners are so hard to get. If it hadn't been for McGonnagall I'm sure Hermione, as an underage muggle-born witch, would not have been allowed to get one. You can't just have one...how confusing would it be if witches/wizards everywhere could change the past at their will? In addition, since use of the Time Turner is so monitored, the MoM would know if you had gone back in time to save a life, and then you would lise your Time Turner and possibly be fined or sent to Azkaban. And as far as Harry's parents...for some reason, I think there was a purpose behind their death. We won't know for sure until we find out what Trelawney's first true prediction was...but I'm sure if it hadn't been in the cards for them to die, someone in the wizarding world would have tried to save them. *Kathryn*, who enjoyed this post because it gave her something to think about this morning:) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Fri Apr 4 14:59:00 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 14:59:00 -0000 Subject: Trusting Dumbledore/Time-Turner Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54762 "greatlit2003" wrote: I think that the ending of PoA was not in accordance with the rules JKR set initially. If Buckbeak can come back from the dead, why shouldn't Harry's parents be able to do so? Harry was able to save himself, Sirius and Hermione only after he came back from the future and saved himself initially. Does that make sense? How did Harry arrive across the lake in the first place if he was about to be attacked by the dementors? Logically, he should not have been able to save himself. I wouldn't want to dismiss this situation as simply "magic" because a lot of other tragedies could have been prevented if the victims (or their friends) had an access to a Time Turner. If this situation had occurred consistently in the books, I would have dismissed it as inexplicable. But that the fact that the books attempt to be logical with an occasional illogical situation makes me disappointed...oh well. The story is great anyway :) Me: We've had a discussion about Time-Turners and 'changing time' several times in only the last two months or so, and basically, we agreed that the Time-Turner, contrary to its name, does not change time, but creates a second version of the person using the TT and sends him/her back in time to *fulfill* the past. There aren't *two* timelines, and the past isn't changed - it's created. So, the "first time" around in PoA, Buckbeak didn't die, and Harry was saved from the Dementors by Harry himself (this actually is the piece of information the whole theory is based on, along with Hermione's "don't change the past"). Go and look at this message - it's pretty thorough, and you can follow the discussion up and down the thread. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/52351 It'll give you a good idea of what the Time-Turner does. Maria From cbdm1121 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 4 14:00:47 2003 From: cbdm1121 at yahoo.com (Tom Marvolo Riddle) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 14:00:47 -0000 Subject: FILK: Avada Kedavra Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54763 I posted this on the OT chatter a while back, but I figured since everyone else is posting their filk here, I want to too. Avada Kedavra To the tune of Hakuna Matata (Wormtail and Voldemort are simply strolling down the street, singing a happy tune) WORMTAIL: Avada Kedavra ... Give the Dark Lord your praise! LORD VOLDEMORT: Avada Kedavra ... Cause I'm kind of crazed. BOTH: It means go kill them all with a simple phrase It's our Muggle-free philosophy - Avada Kedavra WORMTAIL: Why, when he was at Hogwarts VOLDEMORT: When I was at HogWAAAARRRTS! WT: He found his social skills had a certain appeal He could charm people into doing whatever he?d feel LV: They were innocent souls, though I made them sin. And it was so cool that I went and changed my skin And, oh, - the fame! (WT: He was a - famed!) LV: Went and changed my name! (WT: Oh, what's in a name?) LV: And people got fainthearted (WT: How did they feel?) LV: every time that I... WT(spoken): Hold up. Not in front of Dumbledore! LV: Oh. Sorry. WT: Avada Kedavra ... Give the Dark Lord your praise! LV: Avada Kedavra ... Cause I'm kind of crazed. BOTH: It means go kill them all with a simple phrase It's our Muggle free philosophy - Avada Kedavra Hope you enjoy. I've loved the filk I've read so far. --Zach From sarudy at yahoo.com Fri Apr 4 14:51:49 2003 From: sarudy at yahoo.com (karmakaze_kk) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 14:51:49 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's wand (was Re: Wormtail's Wand) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54764 imamommy said: > It seems to me that Voldemort's wand was out of commission > for quite some time because the priori incantatem seems to > show only a few _recent_ events, going back as far as Bertha > Jorkins (I believe, not having GoF in front of me), then jumps way > back in time to to Lily & James' demise. It certainly is a troubling > issue, from a plot and timeline standpoint... [snip] > P.S., I think that the only reasons that Cedric is killed by Wormtail > with Voldemort's wand are (1) because Voldemort doesn't have > the capability to use his wand yet, so (2) Wormtail has to do it, > because (3) Cedric needs to be present during priori incantatem > to (4) communcate to Harry to take his body back and to (5) give > Harry some closure with Cedric's death. You see, I took reason (1) from your postscript to explain why there were so few events after Lily & James's murders "recorded" on the wand. It seems that using someone else's wand is suboptimal, and probably not the sort of thing you would do without permission (like borrowing someone's toothbrush). Since Voldemort, lacking a body, could not use the wand, it just didn't see much use. "karmakaze" From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Fri Apr 4 15:04:38 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 10:04:38 -0500 Subject: Time Turner References: Message-ID: <018301c2fabb$83d22190$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54765 "greatlit2003" wrote: > I wouldn't want to dismiss this situation as > simply "magic" because a lot of other tragedies could have been > prevented if the victims (or their friends) had an access to a Time > Turner. If this situation had occurred consistently in the books, I > would have dismissed it as inexplicable. But that the fact that the > books attempt to be logical with an occasional illogical situation > makes me disappointed...oh well. The story is great anyway :) It would get extremely confusing and downright silly if every wizard or witch had a Time Turner and was able to use it at will. I don't know if you're a Star Trek fan, but time travel was addressed several times on that series (all versions of it)...and if i remember right, in one episode there was actually a "time ship" that monitored time travel and made sure that it was not misused. I kind of view the MoM as the "time ship" that controls who has this right and how they use it. Although, i don't believe that the MoM would have approved the saving of Sirius Black at the time. In that case, i'm guessing they entrusted it to McConnagal and she rather secretly let Hermione borrow it. Kathryn wrote: > And as far as Harry's parents...for some reason, I think there was > a purpose behind their death. We won't know for sure until we find > out what Trelawney's first true prediction was...but I'm sure if it > hadn't been in the cards for them to die, someone in the wizarding > world would have tried to save them. We already know what the purpose of their deaths were - to save Harry. What Harry does with the life he was given is what we're waiting to find out :) ~Katy~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aesob at yahoo.com Fri Apr 4 16:12:03 2003 From: aesob at yahoo.com (Alex) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 16:12:03 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's wand (was Re: Wormtail's Wand) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54766 aesob: > > P.S., I think that the only reasons that Cedric is killed by Wormtail > > with Voldemort's wand are (1) because Voldemort doesn't have > > the capability to use his wand yet, so (2) Wormtail has to do it, > > because (3) Cedric needs to be present during priori incantatem > > to (4) communcate to Harry to take his body back and to (5) give > > Harry some closure with Cedric's death. karmakaze: > You see, I took reason (1) from your postscript to explain why there > were so few events after Lily & James's murders "recorded" on the > wand. It seems that using someone else's wand is suboptimal, and > probably not the sort of thing you would do without permission (like > borrowing someone's toothbrush). > > Since Voldemort, lacking a body, could not use the wand, it just > didn't see much use. But isn't it odd that Wormtail can use it to kill Cedric? I would think that spell would be pretty difficult and need some power behind it, but Wormtail uses it to kill Cedric, the gardener and Bertha Jorkins. Maybe Pettigrew's a much more powerful wizard than we suspect if he can use a suboptimal wand to kill three people. And it still leaves me wondering who's wand he used when he was "guarding" Crouch Sr. and subduing the real Moody. ~~aesob From patricia at obscure.org Fri Apr 4 16:30:18 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 11:30:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's wand (was Re: Wormtail's Wand) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54767 On Fri, 4 Apr 2003, Alex wrote: > But isn't it odd that Wormtail can use it to kill Cedric? I would think that spell > would be pretty difficult and need some power behind it, but Wormtail uses it > to kill Cedric, the gardener and Bertha Jorkins. Maybe Pettigrew's a much > more powerful wizard than we suspect if he can use a suboptimal wand to kill > three people. I'm still waiting for some evidence that there is any sort of negative effect from using another wizard's wand. Normally I would trust Ollivander's word on these things, but we keep seeing wizards using each other's wands with no problem. I'm kind of wondering if that was just a line JKR threw in without really thinking about the consequences. > And it still leaves me wondering who's wand he used when he was "guarding" > Crouch Sr. and subduing the real Moody. Possibly he was using Crouch Jr.'s wand. IIRC, the younger Crouch was freed before Moody was subdued. Crouch Jr. could even have done all the nasty magic to Moody himself. Then, when he took Moody's place at Hogwarts he presumably would have used Moody's wand instead of his own lest someone notice the difference. The only prior spells we see during the Priori Incantatem effect are Avada Kedavras. I don't think this necessarily means, though, that those are the only spells cast by Voldemort's wand. After all, what would an Imperius Curse or a Memory Charm look like? It may be that very few spells have an obvious visual representation (in the case of AK, the echo of the person killed), but that the other spells are also released in some sort of non-visual form. A trained auror might be able to distinguish them, but not Harry. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From alexpie at aol.com Fri Apr 4 16:41:15 2003 From: alexpie at aol.com (alexpie at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 11:41:15 EST Subject: Dem Bones Message-ID: <1ed.5ec2f4d.2bbf0fab@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54768 In a message dated 4/4/03 5:25:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com writes: > Have you ever known Hagrid to be someone to worry with proper grammar? ;) > But come to think of it..."Bones" would be proper for either name. Bone > plural would be Bone's and Bones plural would be Bones'...so it could be > either one. > I think if you search every paragraph of canon, you will never find JKR forming a plural (unless it's a plural possessive) by using an apostrophe. That's because it's incorrect. Always. It only just hit me this morning (while discussing some film or other that I won't mention), that Snape, unlike other teachers, has not yet been shown leaving the grounds. Yes, he does take off near the end of GoF, but we have no idea (or rather, a great many) as to where he actually goes. I just wonder if he, too, is under some kind of protection, and if he is aware of it. Ba [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com Fri Apr 4 16:46:04 2003 From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 16:46:04 -0000 Subject: Filk: the Know-It-All of Gryffindor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54769 Great job! That's a fun tune as well! Feelin' the Hermione love, Lilac --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gingerssnape1966" wrote: > The Know-It-All of Gryffindor to the tune of the Yellow Rose of Texas > > Dedicated to Eileen, who filked Dance of the Cucumber far better than > I could have, and from whom I blatently stole the "Know-It-All" part, > or at least the idea to use it in a filk. > > > OK, everyone! Pick your favourite HP character who you'd like to see > shipped with Hermione, and rosin up that bow, cuz it's a hand- > clappin', foot-tappin', knee-slappin' Hoedown at Hogwarts! Yee- haw! > > She was born of Muggle parents, > But her blood is oh, so clean. > She's a brain that makes the Ravenclaws > Turn brilliant Slytherin green. > You can go on about Lavender > Or sing of Parvati > But the Know-It-All of Gryffindor's > The only girl for me. > > She's a whiz at ev'ry subject. > She's always in the groove. > Her memory's photographic. > The pictures even move. > Her logic's never failed her, > Nor has the library. > The Know-It-All of Gryffindor's > The only girl for me. > > She's as loyal as a badger. > Has wisdom of an owl. > If chips are stacked against her > She won't throw in the towel. > Whether standing up for werewolves > Or setting House-Elves free, > The Know-It-All of Gryffindor's > The only girl for me. > > > Ginger, who has to admit that she only knows about 2 lines from the > Yellow Rose of Texas From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com Fri Apr 4 16:47:24 2003 From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 16:47:24 -0000 Subject: FILK: It is the book you can't put down In-Reply-To: <6b.dff20f4.2bbe8045@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54770 Great job! Sometimes those "filk in 1 minute" ones turn out the best, like this one! Fun and funny! Lilac --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, IAmLordCassandra at a... wrote: > > > > "It is the book you can't put down " > To the tune of: It is the song that never ends > From: Lamb Chop > Dedicated to: Anyone who has ever written a filk in 1 minute during an > inspired moment of boredom. > > Harry: (spoken) Dangerous? How could it be dangerous? > Ron: You'd be suprised. Some of the books the Ministry's confiscated-Dad's > told me-there was one that burned your eyes out. And everyone who read > Sonnets of a Sorcerer spoke in limericks for the rest of their lives. And > some old witch in Bath had a book that you could never stop reading!..." > > (Cue music) > > It is the book you can't put down > You carry it all over town > Some witch she > Started reading it, not knowing what it was > And she just kept on reading it forever just because.. > > (Repeat forever) > > (Sometime later...) > > Harry: All Right! I've got the point. > > ~Cassie~ > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aesob at yahoo.com Fri Apr 4 16:48:33 2003 From: aesob at yahoo.com (Alex) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 16:48:33 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's wand (was Re: Wormtail's Wand) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54771 aesob: > > Where was Voldemort's wand? Perhaps when Voldemort was > > vanquished, the wand went to some special place (if he'd > > meddled with immortality, why not multidementional wand > > teleportation in case of trouble?) OR perhaps it was retreived by > > someone else who was at the Potter house that night--perhaps > > Wormtail, as he was the secret keeper--and he had hidden it > > before the face-off with Sirius and retreived it only when he went > > to search for his master. Finwitch: > Well, I'd think that Wormtail hid it! Hagrid and Sirius were busy > grieving about James and Lily and arguing about who takes Harry, so > they didn't *notice* a little rat going away with a wand for a while. > However, Sirius probably *did* notice him after a while, so he gave > up Harry and the motorcycle to Hagrid and went after him. > > Pettigrew then yells loudly, speaking as if Sirius had killed James > and Lily, casts that explosion spell (With his wand behing his back) > He cuts off his finger with the *same* spell, then does the rat- > summoning spell, transforms and runs into the sewer. > His concentration not at it's best, he only transforms with what he > had under his robe (where he kept Voldemort's wand) > > He probably hid Voldemort's wand into the sewer, just in case he was > caught. He hears them arrest Sirius safely in the sewer while he > wonders how to get rest, food etc... Since Muggle's were involved, > Arthur Weasley might have come there in business... Probably he found > a little rat and decided it would be a nice pet for Percy... Great theory, and it's probably what JKR has in mind, but I still see some holes with Voldemort's wand being part of the escape. If Pettigrew was there, why does he (as man or as rat) hang around at Godric's Hollow after it blows up? Wouldn't this require some searching, and wouldn't he more likely run as Sirius would know he had betrayed them? Pettigrew seems to be the biggest chicken and I think he'd do anything to get out of there if he saw Sirius coming. Perhaps he was looking to see if Voldemort had survived the explosion at the house, but if he can find Voldemort's wand (a stick of wood in an exploded house--probably like finding a needle in a haystack), wouldn't have also heard or found baby Harry and wouldn't he want to finish him off and do the task that his master had come there to do? ~~aesob From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Fri Apr 4 15:25:12 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 10:25:12 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's wand (was Re: Wormtail's Wand) References: Message-ID: <01ac01c2fabe$654bec80$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54772 "karmakaze" wrote: > You see, I took reason (1) from your postscript to explain why there > were so few events after Lily & James's murders "recorded" on the > wand. It seems that using someone else's wand is suboptimal, and > probably not the sort of thing you would do without permission (like > borrowing someone's toothbrush). I've wondered about this type of thing as well...if "the wand chooses the wizard" then how could anyone ever use anyone else's wand? I'd be scared to blow something up (as Harry did in Olivander's shop). But also, i'm guessing there could be a number of wands that a particular wizard could be compatible with...such as in Ron's case, when his breaks, he has to get a new one. ~Katy~ Live in the southeast USA? Join the new HP4GU-Southeast-US regional group! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP4GU-Southeast-US/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From t.forch at mail.dk Fri Apr 4 16:20:56 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 18:20:56 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's wand (was Re: Wormtail's Wand) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030404181927.00c83ea0@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 54773 At 16:12 04-04-03 +0000, Alex wrote: >But isn't it odd that Wormtail can use it to kill Cedric? I would think >that spell >would be pretty difficult and need some power behind it, but Wormtail uses it >to kill Cedric, the gardener and Bertha Jorkins. The gardener (Frank Bryce) and Bertha Jorkins are killed by Voldemort. Not that it matters much (it must be Peter killing Cedric, I agree), but just to keep it straight ;-) Troels From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Fri Apr 4 16:28:02 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 11:28:02 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's wand (was Re: Wormtail's Wand) References: Message-ID: <000d01c2fac7$2a1b66f0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54774 aesob wrote: > But isn't it odd that Wormtail can use it to kill Cedric? I would think that spell > would be pretty difficult and need some power behind it, but Wormtail uses it > to kill Cedric, the gardener and Bertha Jorkins. Maybe Pettigrew's a much > more powerful wizard than we suspect if he can use a suboptimal wand to kill > three people. Well, if i remember correctly, Voldemort was actually holding the wand when he used it to kill the gardner. He was still just an awful ugly "thing" sitting in a chair, but he was able to hold a wand none-the-less. So it's possible that Pettigrew was carrying Voldemort and V was holding the wand when the others were killed by it as well. It would be a little undignified, but at this point, i don't think V cares too much about being dignified. ~Katy~ Live in the southeast USA? Join the new HP4GU-Southeast-US regional group! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP4GU-Southeast-US/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From flamingstarchows at att.net Fri Apr 4 17:00:12 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (flamingstarchows at att.net) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 17:00:12 +0000 Subject: Voldemort's wand (was Re: Wormtail's Wand) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54775 I'm at work, so I don't have the books handy, but I think that Mr. Ollivander never actually said one wizard could not use another's wand, but something to the effect that they would never get as good results as they would by using their own. ~Cathy~ > On Fri, 4 Apr 2003, Alex wrote: > > I'm still waiting for some evidence that there is any sort of negative > effect from using another wizard's wand. Normally I would trust > Ollivander's word on these things, but we keep seeing wizards using each > other's wands with no problem. I'm kind of wondering if that was just a > line JKR threw in without really thinking about the consequences. From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 4 17:00:29 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 09:00:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's wand (was Re: Wormtail's Wand) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030404170029.2776.qmail@web21004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54776 On Fri, 4 Apr 2003, Alex wrote: I would think that spell > would be pretty difficult and need some power behind it, but Wormtail uses it > to kill Cedric, the gardener and Bertha Jorkins. Maybe Pettigrew's a much > more powerful wizard than we suspect if he can use a suboptimal wand to kill > three people. I'm still waiting for some evidence that there is any sort of negative effect from using another wizard's wand. Normally I would trust Ollivander's word on these things, but we keep seeing wizards using each other's wands with no problem. Me: I think you make a good point Alex. I have yet to see any evidence of a wizard having less then satisfactory results from any other wizard's wand. This might have been a statement Ms. Rowlings shouldn't have made based on the numerous "cross-wanding" that has teken place since. But if a witch or wizard wasn't matched up with a particular wand, then of course it would have made the scene in Oliander's totally unnecessary. (Harry could have got his at a Witchmart Blue Light Special?) As for there being any "negative effect" in using another wizard's wand, Olliander didn't say or imply that. He just said that a witch or wizard would never get as good a result with another person's wand not that it would be harmful or wouldn't work properly. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aesob at yahoo.com Fri Apr 4 17:10:10 2003 From: aesob at yahoo.com (Alex) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 17:10:10 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's wand (was Re: Wormtail's Wand) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54777 Patricia Bullington-McGuire: > I'm still waiting for some evidence that there is any sort of negative > effect from using another wizard's wand. I'm kind of wondering if > that was just a line JKR threw in without really thinking about > the consequences. Indeed, which leads to another weakness on the following idea: > > And it still leaves me wondering who's wand he used when he > > was "guarding" Crouch Sr. and subduing the real Moody. > > Possibly he was using Crouch Jr.'s wand. IIRC, the younger Crouch was > freed before Moody was subdued. Crouch Jr. could even have done all the > nasty magic to Moody himself. Then, when he took Moody's place at > Hogwarts he presumably would have used Moody's wand instead of his > own lest someone notice the difference. I'm sure Crouch-as-Moody was using Moody's wand, but if Pettigrew's using Crouch or Crouch Jr's wand for day-to-day stuff, why isn't he using it in the graveyard scene to kill Cedric? Patricia Bullington-McGuire: > The only prior spells we see during the Priori Incantatem effect are Avada > Kedavras. I don't think this necessarily means, though, that those are > the only spells cast by Voldemort's wand. After all, what would an > Imperius Curse or a Memory Charm look like? It may be that very few > spells have an obvious visual representation (in the case of AK, the echo > of the person killed), but that the other spells are also released in some > sort of non-visual form. A trained auror might be able to distinguish > them, but not Harry. But we do also see the silver hand that Voldemort creates for Pettigrew. I agree that Harry's POV might not have picked up more subtle use of magic, and there could be other spells that were just glossed over, but it still goes back to the problems I pointed out in my original post (54751) on this thread. ~~aesob, devil's advocate ;-) From patricia at obscure.org Fri Apr 4 17:34:25 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 12:34:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort's wand (was Re: Wormtail's Wand) In-Reply-To: <200304041700.h34H0Tl05353@tiamat.obscure.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54778 Just for the record, I actually wrote this, not Alex: > > I'm still waiting for some evidence that there is any sort of negative > > effect from using another wizard's wand. Normally I would trust > > Ollivander's word on these things, but we keep seeing wizards using each > > other's wands with no problem. I'm kind of wondering if that was just a > > line JKR threw in without really thinking about the consequences. And then flamingstarchows at att.net wrote: > I'm at work, so I don't have the books handy, but I think that Mr. Ollivander > never actually said one wizard could not use another's wand, but something to > the effect that they would never get as good results as they would by using > their own. I don't have the book in front of me either, but that is what I remember as well. The thing is, we haven't seen *any* sort of ill effect from using another person's wand. No problems with spell results being too strong or not strong enough, no transformations that aren't quite complete (pin cushions that squeal when stuck with a pin, for instance), not even conjured or transformed objects that aren't as pretty as they could be. Lockhart's memory spell in CoS did backfire when he used Ron's wand, but that seemed to be due to the wand being broken, not to it belonging to someone else. The wand had also backfired on Ron earlier, when he ended up belching up slugs. Until we see something, anything, that doesn't work as well as it could because the wrong wand was used, I won't be sure how seriously to take Ollivander's statement. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From aesob at yahoo.com Fri Apr 4 17:35:35 2003 From: aesob at yahoo.com (Alex) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 17:35:35 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's wand (was Re: Wormtail's Wand) In-Reply-To: <000d01c2fac7$2a1b66f0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54779 aesob: >> But isn't it odd that Wormtail can use it to kill Cedric? I would think >> that spell would be pretty difficult and need some power behind it, >> but Wormtail uses it to kill Cedric, the gardener and Bertha Jorkins. >> Maybe Pettigrew's a much more powerful wizard than we suspect if he >> can use a suboptimal wand to kill three people. Troels: > The gardener (Frank Bryce) and Bertha Jorkins are killed by Voldemort. > Not that it matters much (it must be Peter killing Cedric, I agree), but > just to keep it straight ;-) Katy: > Well, if i remember correctly, Voldemort was actually holding the wand > when he used it to kill the gardner. He was still just an awful ugly > "thing" sitting in a chair, but he was able to hold a wand none-the-less. > So it's possible that Pettigrew was carrying Voldemort and V was > holding the wand when the others were killed by it as well. I'm sorry, as I'm probably wrong on some of my details as I'm passionately arguing these points without my GoF in front of me, but is it canon that Voldemort killed Frank and Bertha? I'm almost positive that it is explicitly described that Voldemort commands Pettigrew to "kill the spare (Cedric)", though. If Voldemort has the capacity to use his wand to kill Frank and Bertha, why isn't he using it for numerous other day-to-day reasons during that entire school year that we would see come out of the wand before Frank, Bertha and Lily and James emerge? ~~aesob From prongs at marauders-map.net Fri Apr 4 17:38:00 2003 From: prongs at marauders-map.net (Silver Stag) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 12:38:00 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's wand (was Re: Wormtail's Wand) References: Message-ID: <002501c2fad0$f1649e80$f581b73f@bettysue> No: HPFGUIDX 54780 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex" Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's wand (was Re: Wormtail's Wand) huge snippage > Maybe it really doesn't matter where it was. JKR puts it in Wormtail & Voldemort's posession when they need it. But this > brings up another problem...if that was the only wand that Wormtail had access to, well...wizards seem to rely on their wands for a lot of things on a _daily_ basis, but it seems that only a few spells come out of Voldemort's wand before the Lily & James appear, so if this was the only wand that Wormtail and Voldemort had during the _entire_ schoolyear, wouldn't more spells have come from it? Especially if Wormtail had been using Voldemort's wand to subdue Moody and Crouch Sr? Maybe Wormtail did have another wand, but wasn't using it during the ceremony that brings Voldemort's body back? Betty: That's possible, but what shadow could, say, an emperius curse leave? The cruciatus curse leaves only screams, and ak produces a smoky shadow with the person's characteristics. Hmm... snip P.S., I think that the only reasons that Cedric is killed by Wormtail with Voldemort's wand are (1) because Voldemort doesn't have the capability to use his wand yet, Betty: Just one problem with this. Frank Bryce was killed by Voldemort, with Voldemort's wand, and he was presumably in that baby-like form in august, since he *was* able to sit in a chair. from GoF chapter 1: "And then the chair was facing Frank, and he saw what was sitting in it. His walking stick fell to the floor with a clatter. He opened his mouth and let out a scream. He was screaming so loudly that he never heard the words the thing in the chair spoke as it raised a wand. There was a flash of green light, a rushing sound, and Frank Bryce crumpled. He was dead before he hit the floor." Also, in Ch. 29...the dream... Voldemort and Wormtail are alone with Nagini... "Harry had left the owl's back... he was watching, now, as it fluttered across the room, into a chair with its back to him. . . . There were two dark shapes on the floor beside the chair . . . both of them were stirring. . . . One was a huge snake . . . the other was a man ... a short, balding man, a man with watery eyes and a pointed nose ... he was wheezing and sobbing on the hearth rug. . . . "You are in luck, Wormtail," said a cold, high-pitched voice from the depths of the chair in which the owl had landed. "You are very fortunate indeed. Your blunder has not ruined everything. He is dead." "My Lord!" gasped the man on the floor. "My Lord, I am ... I am so pleased . . . and so sorry. ..." "Nagini," said the cold voice, "you are out of luck. I will not be feeding Wormtail to you, after all... but never mind, never mind . . . there is still Harry Potter. ..." The snake hissed. Harry could see its tongue fluttering. "Now, Wormtail," said the cold voice, "perhaps one more little reminder why I will not tolerate another blunder from you. ..." "My Lord ... no ... I beg you . . ." The tip of a wand emerged from around the back of the chair. It was pointing at Wormtail. "Crucio!" said the cold voice. Now, from that quote, it looks like Wormtail and Moldy Voldy are in the midst of a torture session. Voldy has not only used his wand in our presence, but apparently was doing it before Harry saw it... "one *more* little reminder..." Aesob again... so (2) Wormtail has to do it, because (3) Cedric needs to be present during priori incantatem to (4) communcate to Harry to take his body back and to (5) give Harry some closure with Cedric's death. I think it was more a case of Voldy being incapable of walking. We never saw him move on his own from point to point until after he was re-embodied. I have a feeling he was more baby-like in that little form than he'd been in a long, long time. Betty From prongs at marauders-map.net Fri Apr 4 17:46:54 2003 From: prongs at marauders-map.net (Silver Stag) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 12:46:54 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's wand (was Re: Wormtail's Wand) References: <01ac01c2fabe$654bec80$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> Message-ID: <002f01c2fad2$2fba7460$f581b73f@bettysue> No: HPFGUIDX 54781 snip Katy I've wondered about this type of thing as well...if "the wand chooses the wizard" then how could anyone ever use anyone else's wand? I'd be scared to blow something up (as Harry did in Olivander's shop). But also, i'm guessing there could be a number of wands that a particular wizard could be compatible with...such as in Ron's case, when his breaks, he has to get a new one. Betty: Small L.O.O.N. point here. Harry didn't blow anything up. That must've come from tmtmnbn. In fact, when Harry's trying wands in Olivander's, absolutely nothing happens when the wand isn't the one that chose him. Only when he tries the Holly/Phoenix feather wand does anything happen, and that's a stream of red and gold sparks. As for compatibility of several wands, we have to remember that the first wand Ron had was Charlie's, so it may not have worked as well for him as the one he bought from Olivander's, though it was adequate. I do agree that it can't just be a one-to-one wizard-wand compatibility ratio, though. If there was only one wand that would choose a wizard and something happened to that one wand, things might not be quite the same for a wizard from then on. It, at best, would be like a professional relationship, not like a friend or something like what Harry feels for his wand. My 2 knuts Betty From patricia at obscure.org Fri Apr 4 18:15:06 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 13:15:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's wand (was Re: Wormtail's Wand) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54782 On Fri, 4 Apr 2003, Alex wrote: > Patricia Bullington-McGuire: > > I'm still waiting for some evidence that there is any sort of negative > > effect from using another wizard's wand. I'm kind of wondering if > > that was just a line JKR threw in without really thinking about > > the consequences. > > Indeed, which leads to another weakness on the following idea: > > > > And it still leaves me wondering who's wand he used when he > > > was "guarding" Crouch Sr. and subduing the real Moody. > > > > Possibly he was using Crouch Jr.'s wand. IIRC, the younger Crouch was > > freed before Moody was subdued. Crouch Jr. could even have done all the > > nasty magic to Moody himself. Then, when he took Moody's place at > > Hogwarts he presumably would have used Moody's wand instead of his > > own lest someone notice the difference. > > I'm sure Crouch-as-Moody was using Moody's wand, but if Pettigrew's using > Crouch or Crouch Jr's wand for day-to-day stuff, why isn't he using it in the > graveyard scene to kill Cedric? I don't know. If he is carrying around two wands, neither of which is his, maybe he just grabbed the first one he found in his pocket and it happened to be Voldemort's. Maybe Voldemort's wand is particularly good at killing curses. (It's made of yew, and traditionally yew trees are associated with death.) Maybe he left it behind at the Crouch home, either because he's forgetful and/or incompetent or so Crouch Jr. would know where to find it if he needed his own wand in a hurry. We really aren't given satisfactory answers to these questions, but I can imagine several workable possibilities. > Patricia Bullington-McGuire: > > The only prior spells we see during the Priori Incantatem effect are Avada > > Kedavras. I don't think this necessarily means, though, that those are > > the only spells cast by Voldemort's wand. After all, what would an > > Imperius Curse or a Memory Charm look like? It may be that very few > > spells have an obvious visual representation (in the case of AK, the echo > > of the person killed), but that the other spells are also released in some > > sort of non-visual form. A trained auror might be able to distinguish > > them, but not Harry. > > But we do also see the silver hand that Voldemort creates for Pettigrew. Good point. I had forgotten about that. Still, I didn't claim only AK's can be seen, just that some spells can be seen clearly and some others may not be visible. > I agree that Harry's POV might not have picked up more subtle use of > magic, and there could be other spells that were just glossed over, but > it still goes back to the problems I pointed out in my original post > (54751) on this thread. It's a troublesome issue, I admit. I think, in the end, it doesn't matter how Voldemort got his want back or where it was while he was gone, only that he does have it now. Any dark wizard worth his salt should be able to keep *some* secrets from the good guys, and this may just be one of them. My personal theory is that Voldemort had managed to bind himself to his wand so it would always be available to him, but I freely admit there it nothing in canon to back this up. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 4 18:17:17 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 10:17:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's wand (was Re: Wormtail's Wand) In-Reply-To: <002f01c2fad2$2fba7460$f581b73f@bettysue> Message-ID: <20030404181717.71098.qmail@web21001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54783 Betty: I do agree that it can't just be a one-to-one wizard-wand compatibility ratio, though. If there was only one wand that would choose a wizard and something happened to that one wand, things might not be quite the same for a wizard from then on. It, at best, would be like a professional relationship, not like a friend or something like what Harry feels for his wand. My 2 knuts Betty Me: I agree. Although certain wands may be "perfect" for a certain witch or wizard, it cannot be an exclusive one on one compatibility. Otherwise, how can a shop like Olliander's exist? The wands are made without knowing the wizard that's going to buy them and obviously are often made well before they were born. You cannot make wands HOPING that a wizard matching it is born some day and HOPING he happens to show up in your shop to buy it. No, it cannot be nearly that exclusive a relationship. Concerning Ron using Charlie's old wand. Since they were in the same family, there is a good chance though that the compatibility level was actually very high even if it wasn't Ron's "perfect" wand. I would imagine that some wands would be very incompatible with some wizards though. That doesn't mean that even they still couldn't be used in a pinch. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From manawydan at ntlworld.com Fri Apr 4 18:19:25 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 19:19:25 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dem Bones/Big Bro References: <1049451810.2826.5665.m11@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000d01c2fad6$b9bcd1e0$c17d0550@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 54784 Katy writes: > Have you ever known Hagrid to be someone to worry with proper grammar? ;) But come to think of it..."Bones" would be proper for either name. Bone plural would be Bone's and Bones plural would be Bones'...so it could be either one. Though we talk of "keeping up with the Joneses"! I agree though with the other poster who said that it would be unlikely that JKR would introduce both Bones and Boneses... Mind you, it's a moot point as to whether the distribution of surnames in the WW is the same as in the muggle world. Maybe Bone is as common a wizard name as Smith among muggles... Jenny, by contrast, writes: > What is it that allows the MoM to ascertain when and where magic is > being used? And, if they can detect magic, why can they not tell > *who* is doing the magic? Some interesting points to note from the I also wondered this on early readings - and concluded that in order to detect every use of magic, it would involve an enormous department of magical snoopers, or alternatively a magical map almost on a Borges scale! Most realistically, the question to ask would be "Why would the MoM monitor the use of magic by magic-users?" And the answer would have to lie I think in the absolute iron law that muggles mustn't find out about the WW. So if someone uses magic at Hogwarts or the Burrow, the MoM isn't interested. It knows that that's a wizardly location. Privet Drive is mugglish. Magic shouldn't be happening there. The Ministry would really have to be monitoring the entire Muggle side in order to pick up any unusual occurrences (the same way that they make sure that Muggles don't remember seeing dragons and the like). Maybe that Borges map isn't such an outrageous idea after all. Now the other side of the argument is that the MoM has to know what members of the WW are in the vicinity. For example, when Dumbledore switches off the streetlamps or the Knight Bus makes lampposts jump out of the way, the MoM hit squad doesn't immediately descend to find out what's going on. They have to know that the magic used is licit. Only problem then is that the books are full of illicit uses of magic in places where it shouldn't be used and there's no apparent comeback. Hagrid pins the tail on Dudley. Fred and George engorge his tongue. And so on. Maybe we've even been misled about all this. I know that conspiracy theorists abound on this list :-) Is anyone up for the idea that the "restriction on under-age magic" is in fact a red herring, planted by a DE sleeper in the MoM to (a) make Harry's home life more difficult and (b) make him feel that he can't use magic outside the WW environment in order to make him more vulnerable to attack? First response gets to make up the acronym :-) Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From jodel at aol.com Fri Apr 4 18:56:18 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 13:56:18 EST Subject: The wand collector (was; Voldemort's/Wormtail's wand) Message-ID: <17c.18f5154a.2bbf2f52@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54785 Alex muses; << Maybe Wormtail did have another wand, but wasn't using it during the ceremony that brings Voldemort's body back? >> Wormtail has a whole bloody collection of other peoples' wands. He's got a thing about stealing wands. The last thing we saw him do in PoA was to steal Lupin's wand. There is also Bertha Jorkins' wand still unaccounted for. For that matter, what about Crouch Sr.'s wand (Although it would have made sense for Jr. to have confiscated it when he killed his father, Sr.'s condition and behavior tend to suggest that he had struggled to get to Hogwarts without it. Given that he had escaped from Wormtail's supervision, I'd say that Wormtail probably has *his* wand, too.) For that matter, he may, just possibly, still even have his own original one. Those nine sticky fingers lift any wand that isn't actually nailed down. As to why he is *using* Voldemort's wand; I think that Harry wasn't the only person who ended up getting some of Voldemort's power the night he was defeated and Voldemort's wand may be the one that now works best for him. (After Harry escaped he probably picked up Cedric's too.) -JOdel From jodel at aol.com Fri Apr 4 18:56:17 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 13:56:17 EST Subject: Dumbledore Dilemmas Message-ID: <1e7.60c658c.2bbf2f51@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54786 "greatlit2003" gives us quite a list of these, but i'm not going to try to address them all here. What set me off in particular was one of Serena's responses; >>(greatlit) 7. Why did Dumbledore let Harry face Voldie at the end of Book 1? Harry later told Ron and Hermione that he felt that Dumbledore knew everything that was going on, and he thought Harry had the right to face Voldie. Isn't it a bit risky to allow an 11 year old to face a powerful Dark Wizard? (Serena) Which begs another question--why bring the sorcerors stone to Hogwarts in the first place? How did he know that someone (Voldemort) was after it? Was he setting up Harry and Voldemort for their big meeting from the get go? It does certainly seem that way. Was Dumbldore testing Harry or he's getting him ready for everything that happens in the next six books.<< Now, this is a drum that I've been thumping for the past year or two. I think that the adventure of the Philosophers' Stone got out of hand and went a good deal farther than Dumbledore ever intended. And what was going on was a good deal deeper than Harry and his friends ever figured out (they were only 11-12 after all). The following is my own interpretation of what was going on that year, and Harry's intended part in it was very minor. This was the first time Dumbledore had ever really dealt with Harry, and he did not know what to expect. He got more than he bargained for, Harry has a way of exceeding expectations. Frankly, since I have been thumping this drum as long as I have, I am not sure that most of this hasn't been already posted on this list. But here is a revised version. The Quirrell Debacle It is clear to the reader of PS/SS that Dumbledore and the staff of Hogwarts was on alert throughout the school year for an attempt upon the Stone. Why else would there have been a labyrinth of challenges set up to protect it? There was obviously more going on than Harry and his friends knew, or than they eventually managed to figure out. We probably still do not know all of what was going on behind the scenes during Harry's first year. But we can make a guess. The one thing that we do know is that the situation was set in motion by the folly of young Professor Quirrell. One of the many things that we do not know about Quirrell is just *how* young Professor Quirrell was, or how long he actually was a teacher at Hogwarts Academy. Nor do we know how long Quirrell had been the stammering wreck that we met when Harry did. Once again much of our confusion is based upon statements from Rubeus Hagrid. Hagrid tells us that Quirrell was all right while he was *studying out of books*, but then he went off for a year to get practical experience, and came back frightened of his subject, frightened of his students and all the rest. In contrast, at the end of Goblet of Fire, Voldemort paints Quirrell as young, foolish and over-confident. Easily taken over. Our only other source of information is Percy Weasley who clearly already knows Quirrell from prior to Harry and Ron's first year. Percy is also the source of the "Snape wants the DADA job" rumor. In this case, upon the whole I am more inclined to believe Voldemort's version. A wizard whose nerve is already shot is unlikely to have been exploring dangerously haunted forests in Albania. Nevertheless, while Hagrid's reading of the situation seems likely to be highly inaccurate when applied to any detail, it sounds basically true at its heart. Quirrell *was* all right when he was still studying out of books. But I think the jumpiness he is showing is a very recent development and Hagrid's statement is more in the nature of a prediction than an observation of Quirrell's actual behavior on the job since he returned from his travels. He has not yet been put to the test in the classroom. The loss of young Professor Quirrell is one of the series's lesser tragedies. I suspect that Quirrell was even younger than we've believed so far and that Percy (already a 5th year) remembers Quirrell from when Quirrell was still a student, himself. From all that we have definitely been told about Quirrell, he sounds just the sort of academic high achiever that Percy might have admired. And if my theory of there being an informal study group which has been holding down a couple of tables in the library for centuries is on target, Percy may even have known Quirrell personally from that context. Indeed, given that the young man seems to have gone into teaching very soon after finishing school himself, the younger members of that study group may have known him very well. For he must have had some reason to chose teaching as a career, and experience in helping younger students would have made a good start.(Side note: Snape does not want the DADA job. He just enjoys sneering at whoever happens to have it.) One suggestion; Quirrell's DADA position may have been arranged quite a while in advance. Anything up to a year or two's worth in advance, or even more. Suppose for a minute that the DADA teacher before Quirrell had already announced his intention to retire in a year or two. (We've heard nothing about the position being jinxed at any point before Harry and Co. showed up.) Top DADA student Quirrell was one of the people aware of this. In fact, the old teacher regarded young Quirrell as a protege, may have even been grooming him as his own replacement. The consensus is that Quirrell might make a fine DADA teacher, but that he needs practical experience in the field. Or, conversely; Quirrell finishes Hogwarts, does a year or two of scholarly research on the subject, keeps in contact with his old professor who tells him that he intends to retire in a year or so. He suggests applying for the position, says that he will put in a word for him and recommends taking a year to get some practical experience first. In either case, Quirrell goes off and performs quite well in the field. So well, in fact, that he is distinctly over-confident when he gets to Albania and decides to investigate the tales of a forested area where, over the past decade, there have been reports of animals, particularly snakes, which exhibit ominously unnatural behavior. I see Quirrell as Percy Weasley's "shadow twin", much in the way that Harry and his friends echo the Marauders. Very bright, very upright, very consious of his good intentions, very, very good at going by the book and following all the rules of how things are "supposed" to work -- and completely out of his depth if he comes up against something that doesn't bloody *care* about rules. (Perhaps one of the most valuable lessons that Harry and Ron have passed on to Hermione is the understanding that sometimes you have to break rules.) What Quirrell did not necessarily know was that Dumbledore has been having someone he trusts monitor the area to take note of and report any wizards who enter that part of the forest. This watch has been going on for years, and when Quirrell went into the forest and came out twitching, Dumbledore was informed at once. There was never any mystery on Dumbledore's part as to who was serving as Voldemort's agent at Hogwarts. The real question regarding the adventure of the Philosophers' Stone is why it ever was set up the *way* it was. That the whole charade was set up as a trap, is obvious to every reader. But since we see everything from Harry's point of view it is not so glaringly obvious that in the normal way of things, there was no reason whatsoever for the Philosophers' Stone to have been at Hogwarts at all. What, exactly, was being attempted here? Dumbledore (and most of the rest of his staff) already knew that Quirrell had been gotten at and overpowered by Voldemort. Dumbledore and his closest colleagues knew that if Voldemort had actually physically possessed Quirrell, rather than simply overcomming and haunting him psychicly, then he was engaged in a race against time before the body he was possessing failed. It is probably pretty widely known that Voldemort seeks immortality. Consequently, waving the Philosophers' Stone under his nose like bait would be irresistibly attractive. Getting Quirrell to assist in setting up the series of challenges guarding the Stone might give him a false sense of security and keep him concentrated on getting at the Stone rather than, say, regrouping his followers, or directing too much of his attention to his unfinished business with the Potter boy. And, if they could manage to trap him quickly enough, they might be able to effect a rescue of their young colleague. That's something I don't see anyone bringing up. The labyrinth of tests was a *rescue attempt*. One that failed. Their hopes faded as the school year progressed, and with the death of the first unicorn, Dumbledore knew that Voldemort had effectively killed his hostage and it was too late. Indeed, Dumbledore was waiting for an attempt on the Stone any time after Hagrid showed up with that dragon's egg. (Which I am pretty sure that he knew about. And if the children hadn't managed to talk Hagrid into sending Norbert away, he would sonn have intervened himself.)Voldemort, however, may not be sane, but he is not stupid. He knows a trap when he sees one. And, so long as he had Quirrell as a hostage, he was confident that he would not be harmed. What he did not know was just how far Dumbledore had taken the rest of his staff into his confidence. I believe that those members of the staff who had also contributed to the protections on the Stone knew the whole of it and played dumb in order not to give the game away. (With the exception of Hagrid who had only been told that the Stone was being protected from Voldemort and honestly knew nothing further.) As the school year progressed, the waiting game between the Dumbledore and Voldemort must have been nerve-wracking for everyone concerned. Finally Dumbledore was forced to conspicuously leave the school in order to tempt Voldemort into making his attempt before the term ended, and the School was vacated (which I think is what he had in mind). I strongly suspect that either the Ministry owl that "lured" Dumbledore away was by pre-arrangement, or, possibly, a fabrication altogether. Quirrell's alleged run-ins with the vampires and the hag are a cover story, which Quirrell was ordered to spread in order to deflect suspicion. And Voldemort didn't let Quirrell get anywhere near his old instructor, who would probably have tried to do something about the problem. The certain knowledge that Voldemort was present adds some additional shading to those careful ambiguities regarding Snape's words and actions over the year. He knew that he was dealing with his old Master, and he was very careful to say or do nothing that would unequivocally mark him as being on anyone's "side" apart from his own. How successful he was at this is yet undetermined, but it is a hopeful note that if it was Snape that Voldemort was referring to as the follower who "I think has left me forever" Voldemort was even then not able to say it with absolute certainty. Snape and Dumbledore also clearly had something planned in case there was a repeat of the broom hexing incident in the Gryffindor/Hufflepuff match which Snape refereed. When Potter "got in the way" and the match ended prematurely Snape's disgust was made comically obvious. I also believe that Snape took a much more grudging part in yet another of Albus's little performances on Harry's behalf. (A clear piece of favoritism, one of perhaps several that Harry does not know of, and which go at least a small way towards Snape's continuing resentment of the boy.) This particular incident was in that odd little scene on the evening of Christmas day wherein Snape and Filch effectively herded Harry (in James's invisibility cloak) into the room where the Mirror of Erised was set up. Because it is obvious that if the Mirror was Dumbledore's final "test" to get to the hidden Stone, then its "place" was in the heart of the labyrinth, and *not* in an unused room down the hall from the library. So, what was it doing there? I am convinced that Dumbledore deliberately had the Mirror moved to that room (without Quirrell's knowledge) during the Christmas break for a reason. And my guess as to this reason was that Dumbledore knew that if Voldemort did not manage somehow to capture the Stone, in spite of all their efforts, at the end of the adventure, they would need to retrieve it from the Mirror. And, given that he now regarded that Stone as a danger to everybody for as long as continued to exist, he suspected that he would not be able to retrieve it himself. (He would only be able to see himself destroying it.) Consequently, a student, whose responsibilities extended no farther that to make a good performance in his studies, might more readily be motivated to form a desire to simply "find" the Stone rather than to wish to "use" it. Almost any student would do. But Albus chose Harry to be that student, partially to see what the boy was made of. To this end, Dumbledore gave Harry his father's cloak and set Snape and Filch (and Mrs. Norris, who could track his location by scent) to keep a watch on the library in expectation of a nightime raid on the Restricted Section before the end of the Christmas holidays. (Hagrid had no doubt apologized to him earlier for having let the Nicholas Flammel cat out of the bag.) I am inclined to think that Filch was not filled in on why such a raid was expected to be imminent, but Snape certainly knew. (You will also notice in PoA that Snape shows absolutely *no* surprise at Malfoy's report of Potter's disembodied head floating around the Shrieking Shack. Snape is perfectly well aware of that cloak.) Harry did not disappoint his expectations, and once Dumbledore had given the boy a chance to get a good look at what the Mirror would do, he came forward and gave him the necessary coaching to enable him to understand how the Mirror worked. After which he had the Mirror moved back into the labyrinth before anyone realized that it was missing. Retrieving the Stone from the Mirror after the shouting was over was the extent of Dumbledore's plans for Harry in regards to the adventure of the Philosophers' Stone. He never intended for Harry and his friends to risk themselves by following Quirrell into the labyrinth. Hagrid's gift of the wooden flute was not in his plans, and I doubt that he knew about it. Indeed, if Harry and his friends had managed to restrain themselves. Dumbledore's plan would still have gone through as intended. Voldemort and his victim would have been stuck before the Mirror, ready to be captured red-handed, unless they had the presence of mind to abandon the scene without the Stone. Which Dumbledore cannily realized was unlikely. -JOdel, who intends to post this and a number of other personal theories and interpretations on a personal site some time before the release of OotP. From megalynn44 at hotmail.com Fri Apr 4 18:58:21 2003 From: megalynn44 at hotmail.com (Megalynn S.) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 13:58:21 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's wand (was Re: Wormtail's Wand) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54787 Betty: As for compatibility of several wands, we have to remember that the first wand Ron had was Charlie's, so it may not have worked as well for him as the one he bought from Olivander's, though it was adequate. Me: What I want to know is why did CHarlie give up his wand in the first place? It was in fine working condition when Ron first got it in the first year. If the wand was "suited" to Charlie, why would he give up a working wand? It couldn't be to save money because Charlie would just have to go out and buy another wand for himself. If money muct be spent on a new wand, why not buy one "suited" to Ron in the first place? ~Megalynn _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From grosich at nyc.rr.com Fri Apr 4 19:14:23 2003 From: grosich at nyc.rr.com (Gina Rosich) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 11:14:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's wand (was Re: Wormtail's Wand) In-Reply-To: <20030404181717.71098.qmail@web21001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030404191423.18118.qmail@web13103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54788 Becky Walkden wrote: I agree. Although certain wands may be "perfect" for a certain witch or wizard, it cannot be an exclusive one on one compatibility. Otherwise, how can a shop like Ollivander's exist? The wands are made without knowing the wizard that's going to buy them and obviously are often made well before they were born. You cannot make wands HOPING that a wizard matching it is born some day and HOPING he happens to show up in your shop to buy it. No, it cannot be nearly that exclusive a relationship. I would imagine that some wands would be very incompatible with some wizards though. That doesn't mean that even they still couldn't be used in a pinch. Ok. Don't laugh. But I think of it kind of like shoes. Unless your shoes are custom made, you may go to a shop and try on several pairs in your size until you find the ones that fit you the best and appeal stylistically. Now, if you are in a pinch and, for example, need to run out of the house quickly, you *could* put on someone else's shoes in your size, but it just wouldn't be the same as wearing your own. They won't be as comfortable, and might give you blisters or something if the fit is really off or the shoes are worn in a particular way. But at least you won't risk cutting up your feet on the pavement. I wonder if wands "wear out." Do the magical cores go "bad" after a while? Dragon heartstrings and unicorn tail hairs are organic matter. They must be specially treated somehow. In GoF, Ollivander tested the wands for functionality. Of course, a wand may suffer a break, or maybe even a hairline fracture could make it slightly malfunction. How sensitive are these wands? Something tells me we won't find out. Gina :-) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From katzefan at yahoo.com Fri Apr 4 19:23:09 2003 From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 19:23:09 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's wand (was Re: Wormtail's Wand) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54789 --- > > Me: > What I want to know is why did CHarlie give up his wand in the first place? > It was in fine working condition when Ron first got it in the first year. If > the wand was "suited" to Charlie, why would he give up a working wand? It > couldn't be to save money because Charlie would just have to go out and buy > another wand for himself. If money muct be spent on a new wand, why not buy > one "suited" to Ron in the first place? > > ~Megalynn > > I'm just guessing here, but in PS/SS, one of the twins asks why Percy got new robes. '"Because he's a *prefect*," said their mother fondly." Charlie might have done something outstanding - won an award or gotten particularly good grades - to be rewarded with a new wand. On the other hand, the Weasleys don't have a lot of money, so hand-me-downs would be the natural order of things at the Burrow. Charlie would be nearer to graduation and making his entry into the 'real' world, so the money would be spent on him. Ron will get his turn somewhere down the road, but until then - or until something is unfixably broken :) - he gets the used stuff (doesn't canon say he got Bill's old robes, Charlie's old wand and Percy's old rat?) Although ... does Ginny have somebody else's wand, or did she get a new one? Or was that ever clarified? Katzefan From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Fri Apr 4 16:39:43 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 11:39:43 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's wand (was Re: Wormtail's Wand) References: Message-ID: <000d01c2fac8$cc0c5a40$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54790 Patricia wrote: > I'm still waiting for some evidence that there is any sort of negative > effect from using another wizard's wand. Normally I would trust > Ollivander's word on these things, but we keep seeing wizards using each > other's wands with no problem. It's not just his word that we're going by. I always get the book and the movie mixed up in this scene, but in the book didn't Harry accidentally blow a hole in the roof by trying to use a wand that was not suited for him? I'd say that's some pretty good evidence right there. Although it's true that we've seen no other evidence since that point. And while i've got your attention Patricia: Katy Cartee wrote: > Bone plural would be Bone's and Bones plural would be Bones'...so it > could be either one. Patricia Bullington-McGuire wrote: > Er, no. You're thinking of the possessive. There are no apostrophes in > plural forms. For example: one boy, two boys; one glass, two glasses. I don't believe that the same plural rule applies to proper nouns (names) does it? If there were 2 Katy's on this list...would it be Katy's, Katys or Katies? I'm pretty sure i was taught it would be Katy's. Any English majors/teachers on the list that would like to clear this up? ~Katy~ Live in the southeast USA? Join the new HP4GU-Southeast-US regional group! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP4GU-Southeast-US/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Fri Apr 4 17:23:29 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 12:23:29 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's wand (was Re: Wormtail's Wand) References: Message-ID: <000d01c2face$eaf72e70$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54791 aesob wrote: > But we do also see the silver hand that Voldemort creates for Pettigrew. I > agree that Harry's POV might not have picked up more subtle use of magic, > and there could be other spells that were just glossed over, but it still goes > back to the problems I pointed out in my original post (54751) on this thread. Perhaps it only shows spells that were used to destroy or create. Avada to destroy and whatever spell he used to create the hand. Which brings me to another question. I remember someone mentioning that conjured items would not endure (we were talking about the purple sleeping bags at the time)...how is the hand different? ~Katy~ Live in the southeast USA? Join the new HP4GU-Southeast-US regional group! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP4GU-Southeast-US/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Fri Apr 4 18:07:30 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 13:07:30 -0500 Subject: Dem Bones Message-ID: <000801c2fad5$0f676e90$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54792 Serena wrote: > On another completley different note- I'm wondering > about the Bones family. Hagrid says: > '......he killed some of the best wizards an' witches > of the age- the McKinnons, the Bones, the Maria wrote: > Barnes and Noble interview: > "matiaskanfunfa: There is a girl named Susan Bones who > was sorted in the first book, and there was a family > called the Bones that Voldemort tried to destroy. Is this > a coincidence, or will Harry meet her in future books? > JR: Susan Bones's grandparents were killed by Voldemort!" > So, yeah, they're related. Then the fact of the matter is that it was written incorrectly in the book. According to http://www.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/plurals.htm the plural of Bones would indeed be Boneses. Ba wrote: > I think if you search every paragraph of canon, you will > never find JKR forming a plural (unless it's a plural > possessive) by using an apostrophe. That's because it's > incorrect. Always. She's a great writer, obviously, and has great editors, but this one did slip through the cracks. And if that Barnes and Noble interview was a written/typed one, then she was incorrect there as well for using Bones's instead of Bones'. Glad that's cleared up. I will never err with plurals again! :P ~Katy~ Live in the southeast USA? Join the new HP4GU-Southeast-US regional group! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP4GU-Southeast-US/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Fri Apr 4 19:13:26 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 14:13:26 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's wand (was Re: Wormtail's Wand) References: Message-ID: <006b01c2fade$45a266f0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54793 Megalynn wrote: > What I want to know is why did CHarlie give up his wand in the first place? > It was in fine working condition when Ron first got it in the first year. If > the wand was "suited" to Charlie, why would he give up a working wand? It > couldn't be to save money because Charlie would just have to go out and buy > another wand for himself. If money muct be spent on a new wand, why not buy > one "suited" to Ron in the first place? Wow, now that's a very good question indeed. A wand is not exactly a hand-me-down as a robe would be. Do you think they make "better" wands that might be more expensive or hard to come by? Such as with the brooms...i wonder if there would be an equivalent "Firebolt" wand? Perhaps Charlie wanted one of those, so he gave his old wand to his brother. But that is purely speculative of course. I can't think of any reason in canon that would prompt him to do this. ~Katy~ Live in the southeast USA? Join the new HP4GU-Southeast-US regional group! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP4GU-Southeast-US/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aesob at yahoo.com Fri Apr 4 19:28:59 2003 From: aesob at yahoo.com (Alex) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 19:28:59 -0000 Subject: The wand collector (was; Voldemort's/Wormtail's wand) In-Reply-To: <17c.18f5154a.2bbf2f52@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54794 JOdel: > Wormtail has a whole bloody collection of other peoples' wands. He's got a > thing about stealing wands. > For that matter, he may, just possibly, still even have his own original one. > Those nine sticky fingers lift any wand that isn't actually nailed down. My goodness, you could be right! There certainly are a lot of wands out there that are unaccounted for. Maybe he's a collector, or maybe Pettigrew has a knack for using other people's wands...or maybe he's just selling them all on eBay!? > (After Harry escaped he probably picked up Cedric's too.) Ha, ha! You kill me! ~~aesob From gingerssnape1966 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 4 19:34:14 2003 From: gingerssnape1966 at yahoo.com (gingerssnape1966) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 19:34:14 -0000 Subject: Ron/Charlie's Wand (was Voldemort's wand (was Re: Wormtail's Wand) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54795 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Megalynn S." wrote: > What I want to know is why did CHarlie give up his wand in the first place? > It was in fine working condition when Ron first got it in the first year. If > the wand was "suited" to Charlie, why would he give up a working wand? It > couldn't be to save money because Charlie would just have to go out and buy > another wand for himself. If money muct be spent on a new wand, why not buy > one "suited" to Ron in the first place? Me: It's the law of hand-me-downs. Remember that in Ron's first year Charlie was in Romania. He had a job and was supporting only himself. As an older brother, he knew his parents were sending four (soon to be five) kids to Hogwarts on a very tight budget. Buying Ron a new wand himself may have been embarrasing for his parents. Remember how Harry senses not to offer them money? (I do hope he had the manners to send a thank-you gift) It would be more of an "older brother" thing to do to buy himself a new wand and then, in an offhand kind of way, to mention that his old wand is still functional, and offer it to them for Ron's use. Totally unsupported by canon, but Charlie may have let Ron play a bit with his old wand and realized they were compatible. Not that he would have let him do magic, but just holding and swishing it, like letting little kids "drive" when the car is shut off. Ginger, who is having fond big sister memories of buying herself a new bike so that baby sister Dobby (her nickname which predated HP by a decade) could have the old one as she didn't have one. From aesob at yahoo.com Fri Apr 4 19:38:07 2003 From: aesob at yahoo.com (Alex) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 19:38:07 -0000 Subject: Weasley wands (was: V's & W's wands) In-Reply-To: <006b01c2fade$45a266f0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54796 > Megalynn: > > What I want to know is why did Charlie give up his wand in the first place? Katy: > Wow, now that's a very good question indeed. A wand is not exactly a hand- me-down as a robe would be. Do you think they make "better" wands that might be more expensive or hard to come by? Such as with the brooms...i wonder if there would be an equivalent "Firebolt" wand? Perhaps Charlie wanted one of those, so he gave his old wand to his brother. But that is purely speculative of course. I can't think of any reason in canon that would prompt him to do this. Just one more idea and then I'll shut up for today (maybe): I wonder if Charlie had received a less than perfect wand for himself when he originally went to Hogwarts (perhaps it was on sale), so after graduation he purchased one for himself, and the "sale" wand was given to Ron, keeping it in the family. ~~aesob From patricia at obscure.org Fri Apr 4 19:44:07 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 14:44:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's wand (was Re: Wormtail's Wand) In-Reply-To: <006b01c2fade$45a266f0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54797 On Fri, 4 Apr 2003, Katy Cartee wrote: > Megalynn wrote: > > > What I want to know is why did CHarlie give up his wand in the first place? > > It was in fine working condition when Ron first got it in the first year. If > > the wand was "suited" to Charlie, why would he give up a working wand? It > > couldn't be to save money because Charlie would just have to go out and buy > > another wand for himself. If money muct be spent on a new wand, why not buy > > one "suited" to Ron in the first place? Perhaps Charlie's first wand was second-hand when he got it, either as a hand-me-down from another family member or from a second-hand wand shop. It was clearly serviceable enough since he apparently did very well at Hogwarts, but now that he's on his own and can afford a new wand with his own money I'm sure he would want one that was idealy suited to him, not just a close fit. As And since he is now working with extremely dangerous animals, it would be more important for him to have an ideal wand than Ron. > Wow, now that's a very good question indeed. A wand is not exactly a > hand-me-down as a robe would be. I don't see any reason to assume wands can't be handed down like robes since Ron does receive a hand-me-down wand. Not every pre-used wand would be suitable, but then not every pre-used robe would fit adequately either. > Do you think they make "better" wands > that might be more expensive or hard to come by? Such as with the > brooms...i wonder if there would be an equivalent "Firebolt" wand? > Perhaps Charlie wanted one of those, so he gave his old wand to his > brother. But that is purely speculative of course. I can't think of any > reason in canon that would prompt him to do this. I'm working from memory here, so I may be wrong, but doesn't Hagrid say something about there being no place better than Ollivander's to get a wand? That implies that there are other wand shops, but they aren't as good. So yes, it does seem like there could be Firebolt-like wands as well as run-of-the-mill wands. The skill of the wand maker could affect the quality of the wand. Or some shops could use less than perfect raw materials -- heartstring from sickly dragons, for instance, rather than from robust and hearty beasts. On the other hand, Ollivander's could be the prefered wand shop because they have a larger selection or because Ollivander is better at matching witches and wizards with wands, but not because his wands are inherently better. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From megalynn44 at hotmail.com Fri Apr 4 20:13:38 2003 From: megalynn44 at hotmail.com (Megalynn S.) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 15:13:38 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Weasley wands (was: V's & W's wands) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54798 With every question I ask five more pop up in my head. What happens to a wand when a wizard dies? Is it buried with it or handed down? Are wizards buried? Are wands more like shoes? Are there a finite number of wand cores and wood thus making a finite variety of wands, thus finding a proper wand is more like find the proper size rather than one's "soulmate" or better yet "wandmate"? Was CHarlie's old wand handed down to him from a deceased relative? Well now I am coming back to the missing Weasley kid again. Maybe it was really the dead Weasley child's wand and either Ron's parents lied to him and said it was Charlies old wand or Ron for some reason lied to avoid explaining his families hurtful past! Wow, I have finally made an outlandish theory, and in such an odd line of reasoning too ~Megalynn _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From gandharvika at hotmail.com Fri Apr 4 20:31:58 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 20:31:58 +0000 Subject: (FILK) Muggle Inventions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54799 Muggle Inventions (A FILK to the tune of _Civilizaton (a.k.a. Bongo, Bongo, Bongo)_ as performed by Danny Kaye and the Andrew Sisters) Dedicated to CMC because I'm certain that even if nobody else on this list knows this song, he will. A Real Audio clip is here: http://www.allegro-music.com/online_catalog.asp?sku_tag=CRG3218023 Arthur is singing the lead and the Weasley Brothers (Fred, George and Ron) are singing the back up vocals. Each day I work at the Misuse of Muggle Artifacts Office And I see all sorts of Muggle stuff, can't get enough, I am in bliss Inside my shed I have a huge collection sitting on the shelves If I was ever discovered I would have to arrest myself Oh, high-dee, ho-dee, hey-dey, I think Muggles are A-okay Yea, yea, yea, yea, yea Jingle, jangle, juggle, I'm just mad for all things Muggle And for all their ways They got them spark plugs, tell-phones, bus stops, larm clocks No sorcery! (So no matter how loud Mom yells) I want to see! Went to Diagon Alley and can you guess who I did see? (Spoken: Diagon Alley? Wha' happened?) I got to meet the Muggle parents of Ron's friend Hermione (Spoken: And what did you do then, Arthur?) I invited them for a drink down at the Leaky Cauldron (What did you talk about, Daddy?) They described a facinating thing they call a televsion Oh, high-dee, ho-dee, hey-dey, I think Muggles are A-okay Yea, yea, yea, yea, yea Jingle, jangle, juggle, I'm just mad for all things Muggle And for all their ways They got them peace-men, post box, foot ball, car parks Paper money! (So no matter what you're thinking) I want to see! Later that day I saw Malfoy and he had the gall to condemn Said it was a disgrace to the name of wizard that I was with them I couldn't take his insult so I jumped him and started to fight Malfoy cut my lip but I gave him a big black eye Oh, high-dee, ho-dee, hey-dey, I think Muggles are A-okay Yea, yea, yea, yea, yea Jingle, jangle, juggle, I'm just mad for all things Muggle And for all their ways They got them ink pens, movies, airpanes, light bulbs Ekeltricity! (so no matter how they mock him) I want to see (They say it's a waste of time) But that's just the way that I'm (*together*) Muggle inventions, I/he want(s) to see! -Gail...3 http://www.findmidis.com/lyrics _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From vinnia_chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz Fri Apr 4 22:03:23 2003 From: vinnia_chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz (=?iso-8859-1?q?Vinnia=20Chrysshallie?=) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 10:03:23 +1200 (NZST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore Dilemmas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030404220323.90147.qmail@web41205.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54800 Hello everyone. I used to post occasionally, but have been lurking for 5 months. Thanks greatlit2003 for providing such an interesting topics to think about. --- greatlit2003 wrote: >>1. Why did Dumbledore suspect someone was betraying the Potters? Did Snape tell him? Me: PoA chapter 10 (The Marauder's Map): "Dumbledore, who was of course working tirelessly agains You-Know-Who, had a number of useful spes. One of them tipped him off, and he alerted James and Lily at once" greatlit2003: 2. Why didn't Dumbledore become the Potters' Secret Keeper???? In PoA, McGonagall said that Dumbledore had offered to be Secret Keeper. Why didn't Lily and James take him up on that offer? Me: Faith in your best friend. James trusted Sirius. Making Dumbledore their secret keeper means doubting Sirius' loyalty. Also, fidelius charm could save them. They want their best friend to have that honour to save their lives. greatlit2003: 3. How did Dumbledore find out that the Potters were dead? Hagrid and Sirius apparently arrived before any of the authorities (magical or Muggle). We know that Sirius suspected something was wrong when he went to Wormtail's house and Wormtail was not home, without a sign of a struggle. 4. How did Dumbledore know how the Potters died? (i.e. that Lily died trying to save her son?) Was he involved in an investigation at the scene of the crime? Me: I'm going to answer these along with the question of the magical room Harry might visit. I believe it is Dumbledore's office. CoS chapter 12(The Polyjuice Potion), 2nd paragraph : "If he hadn't been scared out of his wits that he was about to be thrown out of the school, he would have been very pleased to have a chance to look around it" then "A number of curious silver instruments stood on spindle-legged tables, whirring and emitting little puffs of smoke" So clearly, Dumbledore's office is full of magical instrument. It might have a certain magical properties as well. NOw, back to how Dumbledore knows about what happened at Halloween '81. If Dumbledore's office used to be Griffindor's office, and if Godric Hollow used to be owned by him (could be as permanent house, could be as a holiday house) the it's not too far a stretch to think that there is a portal between the two places. For a while I was asking myself, why did James and Lily relied on fidelius alone? Then I thought, maybe they didn't. Harry just doesn't know about it, yet! I think Dumbledore has a version of MArauder's Map of Godric Hollow. Improved 3D version, miniature Potters instead of dots, and may be able to produce sounds. Or alternatively it could be some magical version of muggle security camera. Anyway, this device would alert Dumbledore should Voldemort attack (Not necessarily because Sirius betrayed them, Voldemort could have invented the anti fidelius charm!) The plan was to have James holding Voldie off, while DD open the portal, and let Lily and Harry through. But something went wrong. Either DD was not in his office for some reason, or James did not buy enough time for him to open the portal, or maybe the portal would not open, but anyway, he could not get there. So he saw on his device, exactly how everything happened. He also saw how Voldie being reduced to Vapor!Mort. This device may have a playback function, the like of the omnioculars in GoF. This, might be what DD will show Harry in OOP. After all, in book 1, Harry learns how his parent died. In book 3, he hears how they died. It is possible that in book 5, he sees how they died. I may have been way way of the truth here, but you never know! Vinnia http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile - Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone mobile. From prongs at marauders-map.net Fri Apr 4 22:14:55 2003 From: prongs at marauders-map.net (Silver Stag) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 17:14:55 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's wand (was Re: Wormtail's Wand) References: <20030404191423.18118.qmail@web13103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <008101c2faf7$a08bd560$f581b73f@bettysue> No: HPFGUIDX 54801 snip Gina I wonder if wands "wear out." Do the magical cores go "bad" after a while? Dragon heartstrings and unicorn tail hairs are organic matter. They must be specially treated somehow. In GoF, Ollivander tested the wands for functionality. Of course, a wand may suffer a break, or maybe even a hairline fracture could make it slightly malfunction. How sensitive are these wands? Something tells me we won't find out. I think they do eventually wear out, but that it's more likely to be the wood than the core. In SS, Charlie's old wand looks battered and the unicorn hair's poking out just a bit. In second year, the wand becomes nearly useless after the tip's broken and spellotape isn't enough to fix it. Any additions or other ideas? I'm not used to speculating. I specialize in canon details. Betty From aesob at yahoo.com Fri Apr 4 23:16:01 2003 From: aesob at yahoo.com (Alex) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 23:16:01 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's wand (was Re: Wormtail's Wand) In-Reply-To: <008101c2faf7$a08bd560$f581b73f@bettysue> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54802 Gina: > I wonder if wands "wear out." Do the magical cores go "bad" after a while? > Dragon heartstrings and unicorn tail hairs are organic matter. They must be > specially treated somehow. In GoF, Ollivander tested the wands for > functionality. Of course, a wand may suffer a break, or maybe even a > hairline fracture could make it slightly malfunction. How sensitive are > these wands? Something tells me we won't find out. Silver Stag/Betty: > I think they do eventually wear out, but that it's more likely to be the > wood than the core. In SS, Charlie's old wand looks battered and the > unicorn hair's poking out just a bit. In second year, the wand becomes > nearly useless after the tip's broken and spellotape isn't enough to fix it. > Any additions or other ideas? I'm not used to speculating. I specialize in > canon details. Well, today I've specialized in trouble-making, but I'll be nice and speculate... I imagine, if it were properly cared for, that a wand could last an eternity. The wands, as portrayed in the movie (I don't know if JKR had any input into the design) look as though they are turned on a lathe and look very durable. It's not a hollowed out stick with some magic stuff put in it, as I originally imagined from reading. In this case, the wood used would be from heartwood and all the woods mentioned in the books are hardwoods, so a carved, sanded, polished and laquered wand that was kept dry and safe could theoretically last forever. One thing that throws me, though are some of the words that JKR uses to describe the wands: rather bendy, flexible, etc...I don't think these words could be used to describe the wands portrayed in the movie, as they all seem inflexible. As for the core, I think that that is what truly defines the wand's power, and that the wood is merely a vessel. The wood may act as a conductor between wizard and core, though so it could accentuate the wand's characteristics. Why not...different woods certainly do have different characteristics and uses. I would speculate that as long as the core is not compromised in any way, that it would still be usable. Can a wand's core go bad or get used up? I think not...Voldemort's wand must be at least fifty years old and Dumbledore's could be much older (provided he hasn't upgraded over the years). Rather than the car analogy, I imagine, like a Stradivarius, a wand would get finer with age, provided it was well cared for. Children can be rough on anything. A wand, like a pair of eyeglasses, if it gets sat upon or is thrown in a pocket or ends up on the floor at night, will take more abuse than if it is loved. The core material on Charlie/Ron's wand is breached, which could turn it bad. Hair and feathers, though flexible could fray or fall apart. Sealed within a well made wand, however they could last a very long time even though they are organic. Think of the human hair they find in Egyptian mummies. I'm not sure what dragon heartstring would consist of, but this could be breakable and might need extra special care. Doesn't Harry speculate that Hagrid has kept his core and put it in his umbrella? Even if his wand was snapped in two, if the core remained viable, it could still be used. ~~aesob From t.forch at mail.dk Fri Apr 4 21:04:31 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 23:04:31 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's wand (was Re: Wormtail's Wand) In-Reply-To: References: <000d01c2fac7$2a1b66f0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030404225012.00ca9100@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 54803 At 17:35 04-04-03 +0000, Alex wrote: >Troels: > > The gardener (Frank Bryce) and Bertha Jorkins are killed by Voldemort. > > Not that it matters much (it must be Peter killing Cedric, I agree), but > > just to keep it straight ;-) > >I'm sorry, as I'm probably wrong on some of my details as I'm passionately >arguing these points without my GoF in front of me, but is it canon that >Voldemort killed Frank and Bertha? Yes, it is canon - GoF-1 'The Riddle House': " 'Wormtail, Wormtail,' said the cold voice silkily, 'why would I kill you? I killed Bertha because I had to. She was fit for nothing after my questioning, quite useless. In any case, awkward questions would have been asked if she had gone back to the Ministry with the news that she had met you on her holidays. Wizards who are supposed to be dead would do well not to run into Ministry of Magic witches at wayside inns ...' " (p. 16, Bloomsbury) and " And then the chair was facing Frank, and he saw what was sitting in it. His walking stick fell to the floor with a clatter. He opened his mouth and let out a scream. He was screaming so loudly that he never heard the words the thing in the chair spoke, as it raised a wand. There was a flash of green light, a rushing sound, and Frank Bryce crumpled. He was dead before he hit the floor. " (p. 19, Bloomsbury) And later in GoF-29 'The Dream' Lord Voldemort uses the Cruciatus curse on Peter. > I'm almost positive that it is explicitly described that Voldemort >commands Pettigrew to "kill the spare (Cedric)", though. That seems quite certain. Those words ('Kill the spare') are spoken in that 'high, cold voice' that is associated with Lord Voldemort, while the curse is cast in a second voice. > If Voldemort has the capacity to use his wand to kill Frank and Bertha, >why isn't he using it for numerous other day-to-day reasons during that >entire >school year that we would see come out of the wand before Frank, Bertha and >Lily and James emerge? Because Rowling couldn't be bothered with these details? IIRC there are even spells that we know he cast that are missing. I have long planned to go through the thing carefully with an eye to exactly this, but I haven't found the time yet ;-) I also wonder how Voldemort 'questioned' Bertha. Did it really involve no spells at all? (There is no indication of any spells emerging between the shadows/echoes of Bertha and the first of Harry's parents (James or Lily depending on edition). Troels From aesob at yahoo.com Sat Apr 5 00:07:53 2003 From: aesob at yahoo.com (Alex) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 00:07:53 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's wand (was Re: Wormtail's Wand) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030404225012.00ca9100@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54804 aesob: > > I'm almost positive that it is explicitly described that Voldemort > > commands Pettigrew to "kill the spare (Cedric)", though. Troels: > That seems quite certain. Those words ('Kill the spare') are spoken > in that 'high, cold voice' that is associated with Lord Voldemort, > while the curse is cast in a second voice. So isn't it particularly odd that JKR has Pettigrew kill Cedric with Voldemort's wand? What's JKR up to? Is there a reason? > > If Voldemort has the capacity to use his wand, why isn't he > > using it for numerous other day-to-day reasons during that > > entire school year that we would see come out of the wand > > before Frank, Bertha and Lily and James emerge? > > Because Rowling couldn't be bothered with these details? > IIRC there are even spells that we know he cast that are missing. > I have long planned to go through the thing carefully with an eye > to exactly this, but I haven't found the time yet ;-) > I also wonder how Voldemort 'questioned' Bertha. Did it really > involve no spells at all? (There is no indication of any spells > emerging between the shadows/echoes of Bertha and the first of > Harry's parents (James or Lily depending on edition). Authors do make mistakes. Perhaps it's just JKR conveniently overlooking details to get to the point and keep the tension high during priori incantatem. We know she's not perfect, but we don't know if it's on purpose or accidental. ~~aesob, who promises no more nitpicking until Monday as he won't be near a computer all weekend... From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Sat Apr 5 01:00:18 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 01:00:18 -0000 Subject: The KwikSpell Lesson (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54805 I thought of doing this as "filk-song army," but that's too obvious and I'm sure it's been done, so...... The KwikSpell Lesson To the tune of The Folk Song Army by Tom Lehrer Hear a MIDI at: http://members.aol.com/quentncree/lehrer/folksong.htm Dedicated to Gail B. (a 5-star general in the Filk Song Army) THE SCENE: The Caretaker's Office. With great excitement, FILCH opens a large glossy purple envelope which contains his introductory KwikSpell lesson. FILCH: Here is my KwikSpell lesson Designed for all of us squibs It's got each spell simply spelled out before you Except the ones you ad-lib There are inordinate hurdles For those whose wandwork is weak But now with this course via correspondence Why, Fred & George will have to learn to get meek. (FILCH reads from the First Lesson's introduction) "If you cannot do Apparation Study your Kwikspell today Your life will gain Scintillation So ? do not mind all the Galleons you'll pay" Those kids may think that they're clever But supposin' I was to throw a couple extra monkey wrenches into their plans I'll learn to use all the stuff in my drawers I've Confiscated as contraband Recall D.J. Prod of Didsbury Once Warlocking powers he lacked And much he was mocked by his Missus Till he turned her into a yak So, I'll start my Kwik-Spell lessons I'll pick up ev'ry magical trick And become a great wizard like Sev'rus & Dumble Ready....swish.....flick! (FILCH waves his wand. Nothing happens. He waves it again. Black-out) - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Apr 5 01:18:54 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 01:18:54 -0000 Subject: Trusting Dumbledore (was: Snape and Dumbledores trust) In-Reply-To: <20030404145255.15231.qmail@web40502.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54806 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Kathryn Wolber wrote: > Kathryn: > > Me: Well technically, I wouldn't say he came back from the dead. With the Time Turner, they went back and changed the past...so to everyone else, Buckbeak never died. bboy_mn: I'm not disputing what you said, I'm just going to expand on it a little. People only run into problems with time travel if they assume 'time' occcurred twice. For example, the first time Buckbeak is executed, the second time he isn't. But time only occurs once in this incident, and time only moves forward. The first time through the time line, about the time Harry1/Ron/Hermione1 are hiding in the Entrance Hall waiting for it to clear, Harry2/Hermione2 join the time line and hide in a different room; they are there the first time events occur. They are there, they were there, and they always will be there. Although, H1/R/H1 don't see it, the so called first time through the events, Hagrid, Dumbledore, the executioner, etc... come out of Hagrid's cabin and discover that Buckbeak has escaped. The executioner slams his axe into the fence. The first time through the events Buckbeak isn't there because minutes before, H2/H2 moved him. If you look at the events this way, they are a lot less confusing. > greatlit2003: How did Harry arrive across the lake in the first place if he was about to be attacked by the dementors? > > Me: (Kathryn) > > Hmm, well Harry didn't bring himself back from the dead, he just used magic to save himself in the first place, so this doesn't really apply. .... I think Harry saving himself in PoA is what made her so ... shaky maybe at that part. I think she was genuinely trying to say something that wouldn't be contradictory to the books. bboy_mn: As I said before Harry2 was always there, he was in Hagrid's cabin with Hermione2 then went out to the lake to observe. As he watched the Dementors attack himself for the first time, he realized that HE has to cast the Petronus Charm. Again, it's only confusing if you assume that this event occurred once without Harry2 and once with Harry2. In reality (fictional reality), it only occurred once and there were two Harry's there because a couple hours before that, Harry2 had joined the time line. > > greatlit2003: > > I wouldn't want to dismiss this situation as simply "magic" because a lot of other tragedies could have been prevented if the victims (or their friends) had an access to a Time Turner. > > Me: (Kathryn) > >Well, that's why Time Turners are so hard to get. ...edited... > > *Kathryn*, who enjoyed this post because it gave her something to think about this morning:) bboy_mn: If you look at this from the perspective of events only occuring once and time only moving forward, you see that Hermone and Harry really didn't change anything; time and events weren't altered. Time travel only causes problems when events that are totally resolved know documented history are altered, as long as the outcome is ambiguous or unkown, changes can be made. For example, Sirius was never kissed by the Dementor; that is, he hadn't been kissed when Harry and Hermione went back in time and when they were done he still hadn't been kissed by the Dementor. So they didn't alter an event that had happen, they controlled the means by which an event that hadn't happen didn't happen (did that make sense). In other words, the never affected the 'what', they only affected the 'why' of events. In the not too distant past, there were several long extensive discussion of time travel. Very interesting stuff, well worth searching back and reading for anyone who is interested in the mechanics of time travel. bboy_mn From catlady at wicca.net Sat Apr 5 07:44:43 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 07:44:43 -0000 Subject: Life Debt (was: Whose prophecy?) In-Reply-To: <20030402033924.83130.qmail@web13006.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54807 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Christine Acker wrote: > > Call me crazy, but I always got the impression that a > life debt was not honored by choice, but honored by > necessity: it is a magical bond that cannot be broken. This is (literally) a forbidden one-line "I agree" post. From catlady at wicca.net Sat Apr 5 07:56:39 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 07:56:39 -0000 Subject: Voldemort & Lily (was: Whose prophecy?) In-Reply-To: <156.1dcb0d50.2bbce245@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54808 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, happydogue at a... wrote: > > Do you remember when Tom Riddle was described? His description was > similar to Harry's. Could it be at all possible that there is a > connection to Tom (Voldemort) and Harry? Could Tom (Voldemort) be > Harry's grandfather? That could be why Harry's powers are so > strong and Voldemort could not kill him. > > Lily and even Voldemort may not even know this? There could have > been a tryst between Harry's grandmother and Tom even though she > was a muggle. The idea that Lily was descended from Voldemort or from Voldemort's Muggle father is a very old one... The reason why some member of the public asked JKR "What was Lily's maiden name?" is there were tons of people wondering whether it was "Riddle". JKR said it was "Evans" but that doesn't stop us from wondering about Lily's mother's maiden name. HOWEVER, Harry is always said to resemble his FATHER, James. So if the reason that Harry resembles TMR is because they're related, then the relationship must be through James, not through Lily. From time to time I try to work out family trees in which TMR's witch mother's mother was a Potter, the sister of James's grandfather, but I keep getting the years mixed together..... From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Apr 5 10:02:13 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 10:02:13 -0000 Subject: Charlie's Wand. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54810 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Megalynn S." wrote: > Betty: > As for compatibility of several wands, we have to remember that the > first wand Ron had was Charlie's, so it may not have worked as well > for him as the one he bought from Olivander's, though it was > adequate. > > > Me: > What I want to know is why did CHarlie give up his wand in the first > place? It was in fine working condition when Ron first got it in the > first year. If the wand was "suited" to Charlie, why would he give up > a working wand? ...edited... > > ~Megalynn bboy_mn: Charlie's old wand was hardly in 'fine working condition', it was a "very battered-looking wand" that was "chipped in places and something white was glinting at the end" which was 'unicorn hair nearly poking out'. So the wand was certainly functional, but hardly in fine working condition. Being a dragon handler in the mountainous regions of Romania (sometimes called the Transylvanian Alps) has to be a very rugged life, and a wand could easily become weathered and worn from a rough life like that. My guess is that Charlie's wand became too ragged, so he bought another one. I think people make too much of the 'wand chooses the wizard' thing. Any wizard can used any wand, just as any violin player can play any violin even a really cheap crappy one, but he (the violin player or the wizard) will not get as good of results as when he uses his own (violin or wand as the case may be). The wand does not choose the wizard by intellectual or moral choice, they are simply compatable. As I like to say it, the wand and the wizard have a mutual magical harmonic resonance that makes them compatable. Certainly wizards become very attached to their wands and especially attached to their first wand, but it seems reasonable that they could walk into any wand makers shop in the world and find a wand that was a reasonably good match. Although, I will admit that in Harry's case, he has an exceptionally good match in his Holly/Phoenix wand. Someone asked if there were a limited number of wand combinations since Ollivander only used 3 types of cores and there are a limit number of woods that are available and suitable. Personally, I think there are an infinite number of combinations since not only does each type of wood have unique characteristics but each piece of wood of a given type is unique in it's own way. So a dragon heart/willow wand with a heart string from one dragon and a piece of willow from a specific tree will create a wand noticably different than one from another heart string of the same dragon and a piece of wood from a different part of the same tree. Remember when Harry was trying wands, he tried other Phoenix feather wands that didn't match. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From RSFJenny19 at aol.com Sat Apr 5 01:44:02 2003 From: RSFJenny19 at aol.com (RSFJenny19 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 20:44:02 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Big Brother Watching? (about the MoM) Message-ID: <164.1e64c85f.2bbf8ee2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54811 Troels writes: I strongly suspect that the ministry isn't capable of actually detecting anything. The letter says that "We have received intelligence that a Hover Charm was used ..." - nothing there to say from where that intelligence came. my response: Very true, the intelligence could've been anyone from Dobby to Mrs. Figg, not necessarily a big brother type observer, which explains how so much else is allowed, but it begs the question, if they can't detect it, why do they tell students they can't use magic? Why have a rule you can't enforce except by mere chance? It seems it would diminish the MoM's perception of control over the wizarding world. (btw - I checked out your link too, it was a great read, very informative, thanks!) and Ffred writes: I also wondered this on early readings - and concluded that in order to detect every use of magic, it would involve an enormous department of magical snoopers, or alternatively a magical map almost on a Borges scale! my response: I agree, it made me believe that either 1) J.K. merely didn't think about what it would take to monitor the world, or 2) she has some really cool tool that they use to do this monitoring with. Personally, I'm leaning toward the latter because the former seems awfully shortsighted for the amount of times she references things the MoM tracks. Ffred also writes: Most realistically, the question to ask would be "Why would the MoM monitor the use of magic by magic-users?" And the answer would have to lie I think in the absolute iron law that muggles mustn't find out about the WW. So if someone uses magic at Hogwarts or the Burrow, the MoM isn't interested. It knows that that's a wizardly location. Privet Drive is mugglish. Magic shouldn't be happening there. The Ministry would really have to be monitoring the entire Muggle side in order to pick up any unusual occurrences (the same way that they make sure that Muggles don't remember seeing dragons and the like). my response: I like this reasoning more than the one about Harry being the reason they all get these letters (which would mean Dumbeldore gave these out all previous years so it would be consistent when Harry came to school? That seems a little too complicated). If that were the case though, I wonder why the letter isn't more specific to that effect, because it would be common knowledge among wizarding families that it wasn't enforced in the wizard world if that were so. And if that were so, why would Fred care about getting the letter? I like your map idea best, especially because it makes me wonder if that's how MWPP got the idea for the Mauraders map... Jenny From PlaidMouse at kittymail.com Sat Apr 5 03:04:19 2003 From: PlaidMouse at kittymail.com (plaidmouse) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 03:04:19 -0000 Subject: Wormtail's Wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54812 imamommy: > Anyway, if V's wand winds up back with > it's owner in GoF, where has it been hidden, and who took the trouble > to hide it after V was defeated? > imamommy When animagi transform, their wands and robes transform with them. Like when Sirius transforms into a dog, his robes and wand "disappear" and don't reappear until he transforms back into a human. So I took it to mean that Peter went to Godric's Hollow, picked up Voldemort's wand, had that confrontation with Sirius, then transformed. Then Voldemort's wand would have been transformed with Peter as Scabbers for all those years. I'm new here, by the way. This is a great board! Mouse From jentifred at spamcop.net Sat Apr 5 04:41:18 2003 From: jentifred at spamcop.net (Jennifer Angliss) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 21:41:18 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's wand (was Re: Wormtail's Wand) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030404225012.00ca9100@pop3.norton.antivirus> References: <000d01c2fac7$2a1b66f0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030404213944.0097beb0@mail.spamcop.net> No: HPFGUIDX 54813 At 02:04 PM 04/04/2003 , Troels Forchhammer wrote: >Because Rowling couldn't be bothered with these details? >IIRC there are even spells that we know he cast that are missing. >I have long planned to go through the thing carefully with an eye >to exactly this, but I haven't found the time yet ;-) We *do* hear screaming, presumably from the Cruciatus curse, several times during the Priori Incantatem. What spells are you finding missing? Jennifer From iluvgahan at yahoo.com Sat Apr 5 08:45:35 2003 From: iluvgahan at yahoo.com (iluvgahan) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 00:45:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Similarities between Harry and Voldemort (was: Re: Voldemort & Lily) Message-ID: <20030405084535.93934.qmail@web13507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54814 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, happydogue at a... wrote: > >Do you remember when Tom Riddle was described? His >description was similar to Harry's. Could it be at all >possible that there is a connection to Tom (Voldemort) and >Harry? I could be way off base and maybe there will be an explanation for the similarities between Harry and Voldemort in the future books, but I always interpreted it as a way to show that no matter how similar people are(ie: hair, complexion, parentage, whether magic or muggle)it is the choices you make that determines who you become. Harry and Voldemort apparently have a few things in common, but Voldemort decided to use his power for evil, whereas Harry uses his for good. JKR seems, IMHO, to want to make this point implicitly. Dumbledore expressed these sentiments when Harry questioned whether he belonged in Slytherin, and I think this is just an extension of that thought. Just my two Knuts, ===== Christina "I solemnly swear that I am up to no good." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Apr 5 10:20:13 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 10:20:13 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's wand (was Re: Wormtail's Wand) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54815 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Patricia Bullington-McGuire wrote: > ...edited... > > My personal theory is that Voldemort had managed to bind himself to > his wand so it would always be available to him, but I freely admit > there it nothing in canon to back this up. > > ---- > Patricia Bullington-McGuire bboy_mn: While it still leaves somethings unexplained, I do like this idea. It is possible that Voldemort's wand regained physical form when Voldemort regained his somewhat rudimentary physical form prior to his rebirthing at the graveyard. We know when a wizard changes to animagus form their wand and their clothes transform with them, and would seem to disappear while they are in animal form. The clothes and wand only regain their original physical form when they transform back. So that does set some precedent for your theory. It's not unreasonable to consider the possibility that Voldemort wand was reduce to vapor form at the same time that he was ripped from his body. Given that he couldn't physically hold the wand because neither he or the wand were physical, the only way he could perform magic was to inhabit the body of another person and use their body and wand. Then, as you suggested, when Voldemort regain some physical form, the wand also regained physical form. That's solves a lot of problems regarding who had the wand, where it was stored, how did he get it back, etc.... Just a thought. bboy_mn From t.forch at mail.dk Sat Apr 5 10:25:16 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 12:25:16 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's wand (was Re: Wormtail's Wand) In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030404213944.0097beb0@mail.spamcop.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030404225012.00ca9100@pop3.norton.antivirus> <000d01c2fac7$2a1b66f0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030405122236.00cf25f0@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 54816 >At 02:04 PM 04/04/2003 , Troels Forchhammer wrote: > > > >Because Rowling couldn't be bothered with these details? > >IIRC there are even spells that we know he cast that are missing. > >I have long planned to go through the thing carefully with an eye > >to exactly this, but I haven't found the time yet ;-) At 21:41 04-04-03 -0700, Jennifer Angliss wrote: >We *do* hear screaming, presumably from the Cruciatus curse, several times >during the Priori Incantatem. What spells are you finding missing? I've still not got around to making that really thorough analysis I keep promising myself to do just this side of doomsday ;-) But I have done some preliminary studies which are available at where I list at least some of the missing spells Troels From trinity61us at yahoo.com Sat Apr 5 10:29:09 2003 From: trinity61us at yahoo.com (alex fox) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 02:29:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Charlie's Wand. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030405102910.19724.qmail@web14901.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54817 Steve wrote:bboy_mn: Charlie's old wand was hardly in 'fine working condition', it was a "very battered-looking wand" that was "chipped in places and something white was glinting at the end" which was 'unicorn hair nearly poking out'. So the wand was certainly functional, but hardly in fine working condition. Being a dragon handler in the mountainous regions of Romania (sometimes called the Transylvanian Alps) has to be a very rugged life, and a wand could easily become weathered and worn from a rough life like that. My guess is that Charlie's wand became too ragged, so he bought another one. I think people make too much of the 'wand chooses the wizard' thing. Any wizard can used any wand, just as any violin player can play any violin even a really cheap crappy one, but he (the violin player or the wizard) will not get as good of results as when he uses his own (violin or wand as the case may be). The wand does not choose the wizard by intellectual or moral choice, they are simply compatable. As I like to say it, the wand and the wizard have a mutual magical harmonic resonance that makes them compatable. Certainly wizards become very attached to their wands and especially attached to their first wand, but it seems reasonable that they could walk into any wand makers shop in the world and find a wand that was a reasonably good match. Although, I will admit that in Harry's case, he has an exceptionally good match in his Holly/Phoenix wand. Someone asked if there were a limited number of wand combinations since Ollivander only used 3 types of cores and there are a limit number of woods that are available and suitable. Personally, I think there are an infinite number of combinations since not only does each type of wood have unique characteristics but each piece of wood of a given type is unique in it's own way. So a dragon heart/willow wand with a heart string from one dragon and a piece of willow from a specific tree will create a wand noticably different than one from another heart string of the same dragon and a piece of wood from a different part of the same tree. Remember when Harry was trying wands, he tried other Phoenix feather wands that didn't match. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn Absolutly BRILLIANT post, Bboy! I especially like the "different tree, different effect" idea. Now enlighten me on why, if Ollivander knew that V.'s wand gave Harry the scar, and if he "knows every wand he has ever sold", why he didn't know that Tom Riddle was V.! It HAD to be his same wand that he had, because of the "Priori Incantatum"! Am I just tripping?Or did Tom get a NEW wand after Hogwarts? HELP! This has been bugging me for weeks, and I can't get an answer! Alex Fox From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Apr 5 10:58:12 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 10:58:12 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's wand (was Re: Wormtail's Wand) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54818 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Patricia Bullington-McGuire wrote: > > On the other hand, Ollivander's could be the prefered wand shop > because they have a larger selection or because Ollivander is better > at matching witches and wizards with wands, but not because his wands > are inherently better. > > ---- > Patricia Bullington-McGuire bboy_mn: Over time and through Fan Fiction, I have developed my own theory about wand making. Based on my theory, founded on nothing more that reasonable assumptions, it's not as simple as matching a wand to a wizard; you also have to match the components. I believe that a wand and a wizard match because of a common magical harmonic resonance. For a wand to be good, it's components must also be matched for a common magical harmonic resonance. That means Ollivander's true gift, the thing that makes him a Master Craftsman rather than an assembler of wand components, is a deep finely honed intuitive sense of this magical resonance of each of the componenets that allows him to match them precisely. Starting with a given unicorn hair, Ollivander might sort through hundreds of pieces of wood before he finds the piece that precisely matches that unicorn hair then he fine tunes the wand by selecting precisely the right size and shape. By having an extreme talent for matching the individual components with each other and with the size and shape of the wand, Ollivander is able to create extremely powerful wands. Then when these magically harmonic components meet a wizard with a common resonance, you have an extremely powerful combination. I think that is what separates Ollivanders wands from all others. He doesn't simple assemble compenents but is uniquely gifted in selecting and matching all components and characteristics of a wand. Just a theory. bboy_mn From lupinesque at yahoo.com Sat Apr 5 11:00:56 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 11:00:56 -0000 Subject: Chalice of Fire (was GoF Leaks) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54819 Rita suspected: > I suspect that she chose the > title AND THE CHALICE OF FIRE and that was what the above rumor > monger was getting at, but having chosen the new title so quickly, > it had not been vetted throughly, and she had to quickly change it > again, to GOBLET OF FIRE, when she discovered that The Flaming > Chalice is the logo of the Unitarian Universalist Association (a > religion). Another UU speaks up to say: that's a cool thought, and in researching whether it was plausible, I did discover that the flaming chalice is the UK Unitarian logo as well as that of the UUA (an association of U.S. and Canadian congregations), and that there are four Unitarian churches in Scotland, including one in Edinburgh. So JKR might well be familiar with this symbol. However . . . JKR uses the word "goblet" to describe what the students drink out of. There's no reason to think it ever crossed her mind to instead use the word "chalice" for the very special goblet in question. Also, UUs know that that logo is called the flaming *chalice,* but wouldn't you have to walk into a church and hear people talking about it to discover that? You wouldn't know it just by seeing it on a church sign. Just like I don't know what the United Methodist Church calls that nifty logo with the cross and the flame/banner, even though I know what it looks like and that it's Methodist. BTW, I played on this overlap when I led an HP-themed service (Anne's right, an HP service is practically de rigueur for any self- respecting UU church). The service is posted in the files section. Amy Z From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Apr 5 11:22:31 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 11:22:31 -0000 Subject: Charlie's Wand. In-Reply-To: <20030405102910.19724.qmail@web14901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54820 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, alex fox wrote: > Steve wrote:bboy_mn: > > ...edited... > > So a dragon heart/willow wand with a heart string from one dragon > and a piece of willow from a specific tree will create a wand > noticably different than one from another heart string of the same > dragon and a piece of wood from a different part of the same tree. > Remember when Harry was trying wands, he tried other Phoenix feather > wands that didn't match. > > Just a few thoughts. > > bboy_mn > > ALEX: > > Absolutly BRILLIANT post, Bboy! I especially like the "different tree, different effect" idea. bboy_mn: Thanks... I try. If you think about it, every stick of wood is like a snowflake in that no two are alike. Think of the wood's grain; different density of rings, different density of wood, different parts of the tree makes each piece completely unique. Then we add to that the size and shape of the wand itself. Each characteristic expertly chosen to enhance the magical resonance of the overal product. > Alex continues: Now enlighten me on why, if Ollivander knew that V.'s wand gave Harry the scar, and if he "knows every wand he has ever sold", why he didn't know that Tom Riddle was V.! bboy_mn: What makes you think Ollivander hasn't made the connection between Riddle and Voldemort? It seems, in fact, that Ollivander is one of the few people who has acknowledged that he does know that Riddle is Voldemort. The fact that he remembers every wand he sold, and he remembered that the Yew/Phoenix wand was in the possession of Voldemort would seem to confirm this. > Alex continues: It HAD to be his same wand that he had, because of the "Priori Incantatum"! Am I just tripping? Or did Tom get a NEW wand after Hogwarts? HELP! This has been bugging me for weeks, and I can't get an answer! > Alex Fox bboy_mn: I guess it's possible that Riddle bought the Yew/Phoenix wand after he became Voldemort, but I think that it is the same wand that Riddle has always had. Of course, I can't prove that, but that's what I believe. Just a thought. bboy_mn From trinity61us at yahoo.com Sat Apr 5 11:48:06 2003 From: trinity61us at yahoo.com (alex fox) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 03:48:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Charlie's Wand. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030405114806.24212.qmail@web14910.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54821 But MY problem with that is, WHY didn't he tell DD? Or the MoM? The MoM could have tried to research and confiscate everything associated with Riddle. Or is he a "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" kind of wand seller? Yes, that does kind of make sense! After all, he dosen't sell wands just to the good guys. My favorite First Family of Evilness , the Malfoys, buy their wands there, I'm sure. Thanks, Bboy! You are a beacon of Knowledge in these dark times! Alex (polishing Lucius' Wand) Fox bboy_mn: What makes you think Ollivander hasn't made the connection between Riddle and Voldemort? It seems, in fact, that Ollivander is one of the few people who has acknowledged that he does know that Riddle is Voldemort. The fact that he remembers every wand he sold, and he remembered that the Yew/Phoenix wand was in the possession of Voldemort would seem to confirm this. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Apr 5 14:44:06 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 14:44:06 -0000 Subject: Chalice of Fire (was GoF Leaks) offlist In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54822 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z" wrote: > Rita suspected: > > > I suspect that she chose the > > title AND THE CHALICE OF FIRE and that was what the above rumor monger was getting at, but having chosen the new title so quickly, it had not been vetted throughly, and she had to quickly change it again, to GOBLET OF FIRE, when she discovered that The Flaming > > Chalice is the logo of the Unitarian Universalist Association (a religion). Amy wondered: > Also, UUs know that that logo is called the flaming *chalice,* but wouldn't you have to walk into a church and hear people talking about it to discover that? You wouldn't know it just by seeing it on a church sign. << Probably a market researcher made the discovery and informed JKR. If you type "chalice" into Google, the first thing that pops up is a link to "The History of the Flaming Chalice" at the Unitarian Universalist Website www.uua.org/chalice.html Pippin From flamingstarchows at att.net Sat Apr 5 15:53:18 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (FlamingStar Chows) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 09:53:18 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Charlie's Wand. References: <20030405102910.19724.qmail@web14901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <007f01c2fb8b$7aa11c40$d410570c@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 54823 ----- Original Message ----- Alex Fox wrote: Absolutly BRILLIANT post, Bboy! I especially like the "different tree, different effect" idea. Now enlighten me on why, if Ollivander knew that V.'s wand gave Harry the scar, and if he "knows every wand he has ever sold", why he didn't know that Tom Riddle was V.! It HAD to be his same wand that he had, because of the "Priori Incantatum"! Am I just tripping?Or did Tom get a NEW wand after Hogwarts? HELP! This has been bugging me for weeks, and I can't get an answer! ---Me--- I'd say from his statement that Ollivander *did* know that Tom Riddle was Voldemort. Dumbledore stated that *not many* people knew that Voldemort was once the clever, handsome, head boy there, not that *no one* knew. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if Ollivander was one of the ones who did know, if for no other reason than *because* of the wand. ~Cathy~ From patricia at obscure.org Sat Apr 5 16:20:24 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 11:20:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Charlie's Wand. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54824 On Sat, 5 Apr 2003, Steve wrote: > Someone asked if there were a limited number of wand combinations > since Ollivander only used 3 types of cores and there are a limit > number of woods that are available and suitable. Personally, I think > there are an infinite number of combinations since not only does each > type of wood have unique characteristics but each piece of wood of a > given type is unique in it's own way. Good point, and I agree completely. Additionally, the cores would have a nearly infinite range as well. Presumably the hair from one unicorn would be different from hair from a different unicorn, and the same could be said for dragon heartstring and phoenix feathers. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From devika at sas.upenn.edu Sat Apr 5 16:22:31 2003 From: devika at sas.upenn.edu (Devika) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 16:22:31 -0000 Subject: Similarities between Harry and Voldemort (was: Re: Voldemort & Lily) In-Reply-To: <20030405084535.93934.qmail@web13507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54825 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, iluvgahan wrote: > > I could be way off base and maybe there will be an > explanation for the similarities between Harry and > Voldemort in the future books, but I always interpreted it > as a way to show that no matter how similar people are(ie: > hair, complexion, parentage, whether magic or muggle)it is > the choices you make that determines who you become. Harry > and Voldemort apparently have a few things in common, but > Voldemort decided to use his power for evil, whereas Harry > uses his for good. JKR seems, IMHO, to want to make this > point implicitly. Dumbledore expressed these sentiments > when Harry questioned whether he belonged in Slytherin, and > I think this is just an extension of that thought. Just my > two Knuts, > I wrote the following post a long time ago (in 2001). I don't think anyone replied to it then, but maybe it will be more interesting and/or relevant this time around: I believe that all of the references to the physical similarities between Harry and Voldemort, as well as their similarities in upbringing only serve to strengthen JKR's (and Dumbledore's) point that it is our choices that shape who we are. Harry and Voldemort provide a perfect example of this. As Tom Riddle pointed out in CoS, there were likenesses in his and Harry's pasts. However, Tom chose one path and Harry quite clearly has chosen another for his future. Harry and Voldemort, so similar at first glance, even physically, are two very different people, and this is as a result of their choices and not their upbringings. The fact that Harry's and Voldemort's wands share cores seems to me to imply that there was a possibility that the two of them had similar potentials when they each began at Hogwarts. (I'm making the assumption that Voldemort's wand was the first one he bought before he went to Hogwarts for the first time.) Tom Riddle had just as great a potential for good as Harry had for evil (Gryffindor vs. Slytherin). They both had very powerful wands and the abilities to do great things. However, Tom's future was set by his decision to join the dark side and become Lord Voldemort, just as Harry's future will be influenced by his decision to fight against Voldemort. I agree with you that the similarities between Harry and Voldemort, whether coincidence or results of the curse that failed, are superficial. These, IMO, only reinforce the idea that we all have the ability to overcome our pasts and control our own futures. Devika :) From patricia at obscure.org Sat Apr 5 16:39:43 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 11:39:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Charlie's Wand. In-Reply-To: <20030405114806.24212.qmail@web14910.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54826 On Sat, 5 Apr 2003, alex fox wrote: > > But MY problem with that is, WHY didn't he tell DD? Or the MoM? Why are you sure he didn't? IIRC, Ollivander did contact DD about the fact that Harry's wand was a "brother" to Voldemort's, so there is clearly a line of communication between the two. And until the end of GoF, DD is one of the most important advisors to the minister of magic. If he wanted the Ministry to know, they would. I don't know why the information isn't public knowledge, but DD at least does know. > The MoM > could have tried to research and confiscate everything associated with > Riddle. Maybe they have tried. Trying doesn't mean they are necessarily going to be successful. We know Lucius is hiding a great deal of illicit dark magic items in his manor (which at one point included Tom Riddle's diary), and while the MoM suspects he has this stuff, they haven't been able to dig it all up yet. Lucius is good at hiding things he doesn't want found, and other followers of Voldemort might be hiding his relics as well. > Or is he a "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" kind of wand seller? Yes, > that does kind of make sense! After all, he dosen't sell wands just to > the good guys. My favorite First Family of Evilness , the Malfoys, buy > their wands there, I'm sure. We haven't seen him refuse service to anyone. However, since he contacted DD about Harry's wand, I don't think "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" is quite accurate either. Of course, we don't know how he would react if Peter Pettigrew (or Voldemort himself) walked in and requested a replacement wand. There very well might be some wizards he won't sell to, but we haven't seen enough of his business to know that. Lucius Malfoy was cleared of all charges after Voldemort's first fall, and he is a prominent philanthropist. We the readers know that the Malfoy family is pretty damn evil, but they are not considered so by the general public. Therefore, Ollivander's (presumed) willingness to sell to the Malfoys doesn't tell us much about his willingness to sell to *known* dark wizards. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From devika at sas.upenn.edu Sat Apr 5 17:18:21 2003 From: devika at sas.upenn.edu (Devika) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 17:18:21 -0000 Subject: Wormtail's Wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54827 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "plaidmouse" wrote: > > > When animagi transform, their wands and robes transform with them. > Like when Sirius transforms into a dog, his robes and wand "disappear" > and don't reappear until he transforms back into a human. We don't know that wizards' wands transform with them when they turn into their animal forms. It's unlikely that Sirius has a wand at all, having been in Azkaban for 12 years. IIRC, when he tells HRH about how he escaped from Azkaban, he says something about having no hope of driving away the dementors without a wand. So unless he picked one up somewhere after his escape, he doesn't have a wand at the moment. If he does have one, he would have to have acquired it after the Shrieking Shack scene, since he didn't have one then. The same principle holds for Peter. When Peter is with Voldemort in GoF, he uses Voldemort's wand, not his own. In PoA, Peter doesn't seem to have a wand either. IIRC, he uses Lupin's wand, not his own, to attack Ron and Crookshanks after Lupin transforms. I thought there was a JKR interview somewhere in which she said that Peter left his wand behind when he transformed into a rat in his confrontation with Sirius. I could be wrong about this, though, since I have no idea which interview it's from. If anyone knows about it, could you let me know? Anyway, my point is that we don't actually know whether or not wizards can take their wands with them when they transform, and I have a feeling that they can't. Devika From Sunnylove0 at aol.com Sat Apr 5 17:28:14 2003 From: Sunnylove0 at aol.com (Sunnylove0 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 12:28:14 EST Subject: 50 Questions I would like answered in Books Five, Six, and Seven Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54828 There are so many things I want to know, I just wrote them all down. If anyone wants to add to the list, have at it. **************** 1) What was in the letter that Dumbledore left with Baby!Harry? 2) Why do the Dursleys keep Harry around if he antagonizes them so much? 3) What were Lily and Petunia and their parents like? Did Petunia truly regard Lily as "a freak" or was she jealous of Lily's magical powers? 4) How did Lily save Harry? Was it simply her love or something like a charm? 5) Why did Voldemort ask Lily to "stand aside"? Why didn't he kill her outright? 6) Who loved Lily besides James? Snape? Sirius? Peter? 7) What truly happened on the night of the imfamous "Prank"? How were MWPP and Snape punished? 8) How did MWPP lose the Marauder's Map to Filch? Or did someone else? 9) What were James's parents like? If they are (presumably) dead, then why? 10) Where did the Potters' fortune come from? 11) Why did Snape join the Death Eaters? Why did he leave the Death Eaters? 12) Was Snape the spy who warned Dumbledore the Potters were to be killed? 13) Why does Snape hate Harry so much? Or does he really? 14) Has Snape gone back to Voldemort to spy? If so, will Voldemort take him back? 15) Has Hagrid gone to contact the giants? Will Madame Maxime go with him if so? 16) Will Hagrid's name be formally cleared? 17) Who is Grindelwald? How did Dumbledore defeat him? 18) Is there more to the story of the Founders? 19) What was the name of Tom Riddle's mother? Were she and Tom Riddle, Sr, actually married? Why did she, (presumably) a fully trained witch, die in childbirth? (And why in the name of Merlin did she name him after the bastard who got her pregnant and blew town?!) 20) What happened to Tom Riddle's maternal grandparents? Did they disown his mother for taking up with a Muggle, or were they dead? 21) Where did Tom Riddle learn the Dark Arts? Who were "the very worst of our kind?" 22) Did Tom Riddle and Minerva McGonagall go to Hogwarts near the same time? Were they acquainted? Romantically? 23) Were the Marauder's Map and Tom Riddle's diary constructed in a similar way? Is it a form of Dark Magic? Is there something sinister about the map? 24) Is there an "Ever So Evil" mole? If so, who is it? 25) Is any of the Trio going to die? 26) Does Hermione love Ron or Harry? Viktor Krum? Or someone else? 27) Why was Hermione sorted into Gryffindor and not the more obvious Ravenclaw? 28) Is Percy's ambition out of control? If so, why was he sorted into Gryffindor and not Slytherin? Will he turn to the Dark Side? Will he be manipulated at the Ministry? 29) Will Crookshanks show other Kneazle abilities? 30) Will Ginny develop as a character more? Was she corrupted by Tom Riddle's possession of her? 31) What is up with the imfamous "chamber pot room"? 32) What is the room Harry will visit in book 5? 33) Why was the Potters' house destroyed? 34) Is Harry the Heir of Gryffindor? 35) Are Dumbledore and the Weasleys related? 36) Did any Weasley relatives die in the first Voldemort War? Will any die in the second? 37) Will we learn more about Susan Bones? (JKR said in an interview that her grandparents were killed by Voldemort. She is also the only Hufflepuff to be sorted on camera in the movie.) 38) What happened the night the Longbottoms were attacked? Where was Neville? Did he witness what happened? Was he tortured? Was he Memory Charmed? 39) Why is Neville afraid of Snape? 40) Are all Slytherins destined to turn evil? Is there one that hasn't? 41) Will a DADA teacher last more than one year? 42) Is Draco simply a spoiled brat? Is there something more to him? Will he turn to the Dark Side? Will he be killed? 43) What is Narcissa Malfoy's story? Why did she marry Lucius? Is she also a Death Eater? 44) Who is the mysterious "Fourth Man" in the Pensieve Scene? 45) What happened to Sirius Black's flying motorcycle? 46) Is Sirius Black suffering from PTSD or another mental disorder from his time in Azkaban? 47) Are Sirius Black and Severus Snape related? Why do they hate each other so much? 48) Who is Florence? 49) What is Flitwick's story? Is he half-Goblin or -house elf? 50) Why does June 21 seem so far away? *********** The Queen of Serpents [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From karenwickersham at ameritech.net Sat Apr 5 17:30:20 2003 From: karenwickersham at ameritech.net (karywick) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 17:30:20 -0000 Subject: Voldemort Rising from the Ashes? Book title In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54829 I was thinking, A few weeks ago, listies noticed that so far all four book titles been challenges that Harry has had to face. I think a lot of us have associated the phoenix of the title with Fawkes - Dumbledore's pet phoenix. And someone - I'm sorry I didn't get your name, said that it would be strange if suddenly the title wasn't a challenge that Harry faced, and the the title was instead something that helped Harry. I always assumed since I heard the title of book 6 was the "Order.." referred to the Dumbledore's old crowd who fought Voldemort last time and Fawkes the only phoenix we know. But a thought hit me - what really has Voldemort been trying to do but rising from the ashes just like a phoenix? What does the term "Death Eaters" connotate except those who are trying to evade death and gain some type of immortality? Who other might call them selves an "Order of a Phoenix" except a group thought to be beaten down years ago which is now making a new rise to strength behind a leader whom the majority of magical world (outside of Harry's sphere) would like to assume is long dead? Maybe the "Order of the Phoneix" is again a challenge to Harry. Maybe this title has nothing to with Fawkes and Dubledore and Harry at all, or its not the secret "old crowd" gathering once again to stop LV and to put a stop to evil. Instead it's Voldemort and his Death eaters seemingly rising from the ashes for a surprise to who doesn't really know Harry or go to Hogwarts. It certainly goes better with the trend of the other 4 book titles as has been pointed out. I'd like to hear what you all think :) Kary From devika at sas.upenn.edu Sat Apr 5 17:53:49 2003 From: devika at sas.upenn.edu (Devika) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 17:53:49 -0000 Subject: 50 Questions I would like answered in Books Five, Six, and Seven In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54830 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Sunnylove0 at a... wrote: > There are so many things I want to know, I just wrote them all down. If > anyone wants to add to the list, have at it. > A while back, I made a list of my own questions/predictions for upcoming books and put it in my copy of SS. I don't happen to have that particular book with me, so I don't remember everything on my list, but I've come up with a few more anyway. I think we should all contribute to this list and save it until the end of book 7. It will be interesting to see which questions are answered and which are not (and which questions are actually important). 1) Were MWPP friends of Lily's at Hogwarts? Did Lily have any other friends? If so, who were they and where are they now? 2) What happened to the parents of MWPP, Snape, and the other relevant witches and wizards of their generation? Are they still alive now? If Sirius's parents are still alive, do they think that he is guilty or innocent? 3) Did Voldemort ever try to get Lily and James (and Sirius and Lupin) to join him? How? 4) What did MWPP, Lily, and Snape do after they graduated from Hogwarts? How did they earn a living? And on a more silly note: 5) Does the Fat Lady have a name? If so, what is it? Devika From oppen at mycns.net Sat Apr 5 08:15:52 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 02:15:52 -0600 Subject: My own wand theory Message-ID: <000301c2fb9f$eb22e660$e9570043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 54831 I've always thought that a wand is analogous to an antenna for a radio transmitter/receiver. A radio can receive or transmit without one, but the transmission is much easier with an antenna of some sort. Beginning wizards and witches, such as the ones at Ollivander's shop, aren't as magically powerful as they will be later on, so they need a wand that's as closely attuned to their particular magical "frequency" as possible. A full-fledged Hogwarts Old Boy or Old Girl, OTOH, would be able to get pretty good results with about any wand. As they age and learn magic, wizards and witches become more magically powerful, rather analogously to muscles gaining strength the more they're exercised. Fake-Moody is not known to have ever lied outright, and he said that the Killing Curse was one that "took a powerful lot of magic behind it---you could all get out your wands, point them at me, and say the words, and I doubt I'd get as much as a nosebleed." (Hmmm...interesting thought. He _didn't_ say he'd survive the experience, either. Could this be another example of him lying through his teeth by telling the exact truth? AK leaves its victims _unmarked,_ after all---but I digress. Another post. Back to wands!!) Now, to take the radio/magic analogy a bit farther, one can postulate that "frequencies" of magic are like blood types---some are much more common than others. Hence, Ron was able to use Charlie's old second-hand wand because, as Charlie's brother, they had similar enough "frequency types" to make this possible---ISTR he never asked to borrow Harry or Hermione's wands when his own wand was on the fritz. His "frequency type" might be the magical equivalent of blood type A-positive, while Harry (and Tom Riddle/Voldemort) may be the equivalent of AB-negative in terms of rarity. Comments? --Eric, who gave blood today and would like to encourage fellow HP4GUers to follow his example. From siriuskase at earthlink.net Sat Apr 5 18:17:18 2003 From: siriuskase at earthlink.net (siriuskase) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 18:17:18 -0000 Subject: Similarities between Harry and Voldemort (was: Re: Voldemort & Lily) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54832 iluvgahan wrote: > > > > > I could be way off base and maybe there will be an > > explanation for the similarities between Harry and > > Voldemort in the future books, but I always interpreted it > > as a way to show that no matter how similar people are(ie: > > hair, complexion, parentage, whether magic or muggle)it is > > the choices you make that determines who you become. I agree "Devika" wrote: > > I wrote the following post a long time ago (in 2001). I don't think > anyone replied to it then, but maybe it will be more interesting > and/or relevant this time around: > with you that the similarities between Harry and Voldemort, whether > coincidence or results of the curse that failed, are superficial. > These, IMO, only reinforce the idea that we all have the ability to > overcome our pasts and control our own futures. > > > Devika :) I agree with you, too A secondary point is that just because two people are superficially similary, it doesn't imply that they are completely the same. Harry was very worried that he must be another Tom Riddle since they were similar. this was the invalid point that Rom was trying to impress upon him. Poor old Harry worries too much about whether something outside of his control makes him a bad guy, when we all know it is really his choices. From RSFJenny19 at aol.com Sat Apr 5 18:57:27 2003 From: RSFJenny19 at aol.com (RSFJenny19 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 13:57:27 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort Rising from the Ashes? Book title & the "old gang" Message-ID: <1aa.129048e1.2bc08117@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54833 Kary writes: A few weeks ago, listies noticed that so far all four book titles been challenges that Harry has had to face. Maybe the "Order of the Phoneix" is again a challenge to Harry. my response: I think the challenge will *involve* the OotP (with the belief that it's Dumbledore's gang), but, as in PoA, they won't be what's against him. In PoA, we thought Siruis was going to be his challenge, but it was actually Peter who was the real challenge since Sirius was not out to get him. And as for this "old gang" of Dumbledore's - has it ever been discussed how this group appears to be quite the ragtag group of wizards? Several references are made about Mundungus (about him trying to hex Mr. Weasley during a raid and sleeping under a cloak at the World Cup), Arabella Figg is (well, we think) a crotchety old lady with lots of cats, and Lupin is definitely odd man out being a werewolf. Why is it noone in this group (that we've heard so far, at least) is a little more, well, normal? Those wizards appear odd even by wizard standards. Jenny From rvotaw at i-55.com Sat Apr 5 19:55:33 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 13:55:33 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's wand / 50 questions References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030404225012.00ca9100@pop3.norton.antivirus> <000d01c2fac7$2a1b66f0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030405122236.00cf25f0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <006801c2fbad$5c36bb80$27a0cdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 54834 At 21:41 04-04-03 -0700, Jennifer Angliss wrote: >>We *do* hear screaming, presumably from the Cruciatus curse, several times >>during the Priori Incantatem. What spells are you finding missing? Troels wrote: >I've still not got around to making that really thorough analysis >I keep promising myself to do just this side of doomsday ;-) >http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3DEB37DD.4289908%40ThisIsFake.dk Hmm, well the way I see it JKR simply didn't take the time to show every minute spell cast by the wand. Just the main ones, I do think Harry's Cruciatus Curse is in there. The first thing it says after the bead of light connected is "At once, Voldemort's wand began to emit echoing screams of pain." I don't think there would be a distinction between each time Voldemort put the Cruciatus curse on Harry, since screams is plural there's no way to know how many screams. The very next thing to come out was Wormtail's hand, then more screams (DE's Cruciatus curse). The Queen of Serpents wrote: > 1) What was in the letter that Dumbledore left with Baby!Harry? I'm actually wondering if perhaps the letter is hidden under that creaky stair. And maybe, just maybe, Harry finds it. And asks Dumbledore about it when he gets back to Hogwarts. Which leads Dumbledore to say he's going to tell him everything and so on. (And he better NOT get interrupted!) Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From annemehr at yahoo.com Sat Apr 5 20:30:49 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 20:30:49 -0000 Subject: Wormtail's Wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54835 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Devika" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "plaidmouse" > wrote: > > > > > > When animagi transform, their wands and robes transform with them. > > Like when Sirius transforms into a dog, his robes and > wand "disappear" > > and don't reappear until he transforms back into a human. > > > We don't know that wizards' wands transform with them when they turn > into their animal forms. Annemehr: True, we don't actually know, but to me it seems almost a certainty that they do. It is no stretch to believe that the contents of a wizard's pockets transform right along with their clothes when they go into animagus form. Even though Sirius does not have a wand, we have seen him, Peter, and McGonagall transform several times and never has *anything* fallen to the floor which had up until that moment been in their pockets. In fact, now I think of it, Sirius did pull the Daily Prophet clipping out from his robes in the Shrieking Shack which apparently he had with him since before he escaped from Azkaban. So I think that proves it -- it transformed with him when he escaped and swam to the mainland. It couldn't have survived that swim in his *mouth*! Anyway, animagi go from place to place in animal form (as McGonagall went to Privet Drive in PS/SS), and I can't imagine them wanting to do that without a wand. Devika wrote: > The same principle holds for Peter. When Peter is with Voldemort in > GoF, he uses Voldemort's wand, not his own. In PoA, Peter doesn't > seem to have a wand either. IIRC, he uses Lupin's wand, not his own, > to attack Ron and Crookshanks after Lupin transforms. > > I thought there was a JKR interview somewhere in which she said that > Peter left his wand behind when he transformed into a rat in his > confrontation with Sirius. I could be wrong about this, though, > since I have no idea which interview it's from. If anyone knows > about it, could you let me know? Annemehr: I don't know about this interview, but it does certainly seem that Peter hasn't had his wand since he faked his death. If JKR said that, I think it was to say that, indeed, he was now wandless. As it was conspicuously absent from the list of what was found of him after his death (bloody robes and a few "fragments," the largest of which was a finger), I had thought that perhaps the wand shattered in the blast. Maybe. It would, I suppose, count as being "left behind" in that case. I just don't think it says anything about whether an animagus *could* take his wand with him when he transforms. I do think, as I said, that the point about Sirius having the clipping proves that they could. Going off on a tangent that this reminded me of, does it seem to anyone that wizard pockets are, like the inside of the Ford Anglia, a bit bigger on the inside than they are on the outside? Harry seems to stuff a lot into his, doesn't he? I don't think even the Marauder's Map would fit easily into a normal pocket, and his wand is long enough that you would think it would always be falling out, wouldn't you? Then there are the bags of sweets and (?)dungbombs he had stuffed in there that day he was caught by Malfoy illegally in Hogsmeade. I don't know, but it always seemed like a bit too much. And of course, we have what's always in Hagrid's pockets... Finally, Devika, I think your post about the similarities between Voldemort and Harry, and what they do or do not mean, pretty much says it all. This leaves little for anyone to say in reply but "I agree," which we all know the Moderators frown upon! :) So, this may be why you don't get much response! Annemehr who agrees with Devikas Voldemort/Harry post, and who wasn't around yet the first time she posted it, anyway... From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Apr 5 21:09:32 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 21:09:32 -0000 Subject: My own wand theory In-Reply-To: <000301c2fb9f$eb22e660$e9570043@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54836 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eric Oppen" wrote: > I've always thought that a wand is analogous to an antenna for a > radio transmitter/receiver. A radio can receive or transmit without > one, but the transmission is much easier with an antenna of some > sort. > > ...edited... > > Now, to take the radio/magic analogy a bit farther, one can > postulate that "frequencies" of magic are like blood types---some > are much more common than others. .... His "frequency type" might be > the magical equivalent of blood type A-positive, while Harry (and > Tom Riddle/Voldemort) may be the equivalent of AB-negative in terms > of rarity. > > Comments? > > --Eric, bboy_mn: I've always tried to explain this by using musical analogies but your radio broadcast analogy is an excellent way to visualize what is happening. Short course on Radio broadcast- The strength of a radio transmission hinges on how accurately the transmitter's components are tuned to the broadcast frequency, just as how well you recieve a radio transmission hinges on how accurately you've tuned the radio to the frequency you are tyring to receive. This is done with bandpass filters. If any of the filter's components are slightly out of tune, the transmission band become broader and lower in amplitude; noisier and weaker. As all components of the bandpass filter become tuned to the transmission frequency, the band becomes narrower and the spike of amplitude becomes higher. If tuned to perfection in a perfect world, the power spike would reach toward infinity. Back to Wands- This is very analogous to the way I view all the components and design aspects of a wand. The more precisely Ollivander matches all the components and design parameters of a wand, the more precisely and powerfully that wand will perform for a well matched wizard. I think a radio antenna as an anlogy for a wizard's wand works very well. Despite the fact that an antenna is nothing but a piece of wire, it must be precisely tuned to the transmitter's components and the transmission frequency. Matching the wizard to the wand just adds one more component to the magical transmitter, and just like all the other wand parameters, the more well match the wizard is, the more precisely the magic produced will be focused. Finely tuned wizards- Taking what you suggested and appling it to wizards in training, we can see the same 'Radio' analogy. Think about the first day in Charms Class when they all tried to levitate the feather. They are all magical people, they had the wand, they had the right words, they practiced their 'swish and flick', so why couldn't they make the feather move? Extending your theory, my theory becomes the belief that learning magic is a matter of 'tuning' yourself in to your magic. Certainly a few weeks after their first attempt, as the junior wizards and witches become more experienced and more focused, they were all able to levitate the feather easily. So magical training become a matter of 'tuning' your own internal magic to the 'frequency' of a particular charm while at the same time becoming more attuned to your own internal magic in general. Applying this theory, we see that wizards would certainly become better with time, and experience. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Apr 5 21:41:50 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 21:41:50 -0000 Subject: Wormtail's Wand, & It's Loss In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54837 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Devika" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "plaidmouse" > wrote: > > > > > > When animagi transform, their wands and robes transform with them. > > Like when Sirius transforms into a dog, his robes and wand > > "disappear" and don't reappear until he transforms back into a > > human. > > Devika > > We don't know that wizards' wands transform with them when they turn > into their animal forms. It's unlikely that Sirius has a wand at > all, having been in Azkaban for 12 years. ...edited... > > The same principle holds for Peter. ...edited... > bboy_mn: I said essentually the same thing in a different post. The point isn't whether or not Sirius or Peter have a wand, but whether or not the objects they possess transform with them. When Sirius and Peter un-tranform, that is, resume their human form, they are both wearing clothes as is McGonnagall when she resumes her human form, that establishes that whatever is in their immediate and intimate possession transforms with them; things like clothes, watches, coins, shoes, hats, glasses and by reasonable extention of logic, even their wands. Being an animagus would be somewhat limiting if your clothes, wand, and all your other possessions got left behind. Alway somewhat awkward to transform back to human form some distance from where you started only to find yourself naked and without a wand to conjure some new clothes with. > I thought there was a JKR interview somewhere in which she said that > Peter left his wand behind when he transformed into a rat in his > confrontation with Sirius. > > Anyway, my point is that we don't actually know whether or not > wizards can take their wands with them when they transform, and I > have a feeling that they can't. > > Devika bboy_mn: On the subject of what happened to Peter's wand and why his clothes were left behind. Peter cut the finger off his right hand, that means at the time he was holding his wand in his left hand. For the moment I will assume that he is right handed. That makes using his wans a little awkward. Plus he very quickly had to cut of his finger, something that would be very tramatic, possible cast some kind of shield charm to protect him from the blast, and then in a matter of a very few short seconds, blast a hole deep enough into a city street to reach down to the sewers (probably the storm sewers). Considering he was using his left hand, and that he was under a lot of stress and trama, it's not unreasonable to think that he may have dropped his wand when the street exploded. As far as his robes being left behind, we know that how a spell executes is based on and potentially modified by the wizard's intent. Through the use of magical intent, Peter may have transformed in a way the allowed his bloody robes to stay behind as evidence. His wand would have also provided stronger evidence that he was dead since wizards do not give up their wands easily. Additionally, since this took place on a muggle street, Peter and/or Sirius may not have been dressed in full wizard robes. Peter could have been carrying his full wizard robes in a bundle under his arm, and could have been wearing some robes that were a little less conspicuous in the muggle world. We really don't have any evidence of that but it is a reasonable speculation. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From jodel at aol.com Sat Apr 5 21:48:12 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 16:48:12 EST Subject: Wands- Ron/Charlie Message-ID: <18.2ecaa79c.2bc0a91c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54838 Megalynn asks; >>What I want to know is why did CHarlie give up his wand in the first place? It was in fine working condition when Ron first got it in the first year. If the wand was "suited" to Charlie, why would he give up a working wand? << To which I scoff; Fine working condition? It was battered and chipped and the core hair was sticking out! That wand had been through the wars. Would YOU have taken a wand in that condition to work with *dragons*? Yes it was still working, but no one has ever said that only one's original wand will give top quality response, just that the wand has to be fitted for "you". One of the first things Charlie did when he got that kob was to go and get himself a new wand. For that matter, given the Weasley way, that wand may not have been new when Charlie got it, either. -JOdel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gandharvika at hotmail.com Sat Apr 5 22:04:14 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 22:04:14 +0000 Subject: (FILK) Muggle Son's Blues Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54839 _Muggle Son's Blues_ (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Smuggler's Blues_ by Glenn Fry) Justin Finch-Fletchley (sung just before the Basilisk attacked him): There's trouble at Hogwarts this year The writing's on the wall Filch's cat was petrified She was found hanging in the hall Most everyone was shaken By the message written there "The Chamber Has Been Opened Enemies Of The Heir, Beware!" A grinning Malfoy pushed his way To the front and said "You all will be next, Mudbloods!" And terror began to spread I just stood there without speaking My heart was filled with dread Why does it have to be like this? There is nothing we can do Will you listen to my story? It's the Muggle son's blues The whispers and the rumors The gossip and the talk Walking to and from your classes Afraid of being stalked They say that Harry Potter Was found there at the scene He'd gotten Mrs. Norris Because Filch was being mean The monster from the Chamber They say it can't be tracked That first year Colin Creevey - Now he has been attacked Must have been annoying Harry And he wanted to get him back All the students here at Hogwarts Wonder if it's true The evidence is damning It's the Muggle son's blues At the Dueling Club last night In front of everyone Harry set a snake at me And spoke in Parseltounge I must be his next victim He knows my profile Ernie gave me this advice Said, "Lay low for a while" "My name was down for Eaton," I told Harry when we met The way he egged that snake towards me Is a sight I won't forget So although I may be a marked man He hasn't got me yet No, not yet So now you know what it's like To be standing in my shoes It's a scary situation It's the Muggle son's blues Muggle son's blues -Gail B.... 2 _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From slstich at hotmail.com Sat Apr 5 20:30:31 2003 From: slstich at hotmail.com (shanna) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 14:30:31 -0600 Subject: Education before Hogwarts? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54840 Hello everyone. I'm new to the group, but I have a quick question. Does anyone have thoughts about how wizard children get educated prior to attending Hogwarts? I'm not referring to Muggle children, because they probably go to muggle schools first. I mean pure-blood children when I ask this. Do they attend muggle schools too, or just get taught at home? They obviously have to be able to read and write and all that, so I've always wondered how they learned! Sorry for my ramblings, and if this is in one of the books somewhere, feel free to tell me to look it up. I won't mind! Shanna From karenoc1 at yahoo.com Sat Apr 5 22:03:31 2003 From: karenoc1 at yahoo.com (karenoc1) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 22:03:31 -0000 Subject: Wands and Such In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54841 Annemehr wrote: > True, we don't actually know, but to me it seems almost a certainty > that they do. It is no stretch to believe that the contents of a > wizard's pockets transform right along with their clothes when they go > into animagus form. Even though Sirius does not have a wand, we have > seen him, Peter, and McGonagall transform several times and never has > *anything* fallen to the floor which had up until that moment been in > their pockets. In fact, now I think of it, Sirius did pull the Daily > Prophet clipping out from his robes in the Shrieking Shack which > apparently he had with him since before he escaped from Azkaban. So I > think that proves it -- it transformed with him when he escaped and > swam to the mainland. It couldn't have survived that swim in his > *mouth*! Anyway, animagi go from place to place in animal form (as > McGonagall went to Privet Drive in PS/SS), and I can't imagine them > wanting to do that without a wand. I think that Annemehr is exactly on target here. After all, we know as early as PS/SS that McGonagall does not remove her glasses when she transforms; her glasses become markings/attributes to her cat form. (This is alsco the case with Rita Skeeter.) So it stands to reason that the witch or wizard's wand would simply become an attribute of the animal form. Or wands, pocket contents, clothes, what have you go to some magical limbo. This could have occurred with Wormtail's wand, if it is ever established that he actually still has his own wand (somewhere). Regarding what happened to Voldemort's wand after the failed Avada Kedavra on Harry: my personal theory is that Wormtail was with Voldemort when he went to kill the Potters. So Wormtail grabbed Voldemort's wand as he bolted, and then returned it to him in Eastern Europe. If Wormtail kept V's wand in his pocket, it could have been hidden in rat limbo with his clothes until he became a man again. This would explain why none of the other Deatheaters, especially Lucius Malfoy had possession of V's wand. (I'd imagine Voldemort's wand would he a hot commodity, so *someone* must have looked for it at Godric's Hollow.... I'm just speculating, but wouldn't the MoM at least be interested in recovering the wand back then in case V came back?) Regarding Charlie's old wand: it is possible that Charlie's old wand was a hand-me-down, say from a Weasley ancestor. But wouldn't it also be possible for there to be second-hand wand stores? That particular wand was *well*-used probably before Charlie ever used it. It may be more common than we think for wizards to start out with second-hand wands then progress to their actual wands when they graduate and can afford the purchase. (I'm not sure if "new" wands are really that expensive, though....) But maybe some wizards, especially those that come from wizarding families, really don't believe students need their actual-for-life wand during their studies. Remember that Malfoy's mother was off looking at wands for him while Malfoy was fitted for his robes. Anyway, wand discussions are my favorite! especially as regards matching material and core with attributes of the owner! Karen From t.forch at mail.dk Sat Apr 5 22:52:54 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 00:52:54 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Education before Hogwarts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030406003836.00c9d560@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 54842 At 14:30 05-04-03 -0600, shanna wrote: >Hello everyone. >I'm new to the group, but I have a quick question. Does anyone have >thoughts about how wizard children get educated prior to attending Hogwarts? IIRC Rowling has in an interview stated that they don't have to attend Muggle primary school. Unfortunately I can't find the interview at the moment - perhaps someone can help us there ;-) I assume that the children are schooled at home. Troels From trondmm-hp4gu at crusaders.no Sat Apr 5 23:14:25 2003 From: trondmm-hp4gu at crusaders.no (Trond Michelsen) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 01:14:25 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Education before Hogwarts? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030406003836.00c9d560@pop3.norton.antivirus>; from t.forch@mail.dk on Sun, Apr 06, 2003 at 12:52:54AM +0200 References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030406003836.00c9d560@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <20030406011425.D18935@crusaders.no> No: HPFGUIDX 54843 On Sun, Apr 06, 2003 at 12:52:54AM +0200, Troels Forchhammer wrote: > At 14:30 05-04-03 -0600, shanna wrote: > >Hello everyone. > >I'm new to the group, but I have a quick question. Does anyone have > >thoughts about how wizard children get educated prior to attending Hogwarts? > > IIRC Rowling has in an interview stated that they don't have to attend > Muggle primary school. Unfortunately I can't find the interview at > the moment - perhaps someone can help us there ;-) I believe that's my cue :) http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript2.htm --8<-- Q: Do wizards and witches have to go Muggle school before they go to Hogwarts? A: No, they don't have to. --8<-- -- // Trond Michelsen \X/ mike at crusaders.no From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Sat Apr 5 23:25:32 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 15:25:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] My own wand theory In-Reply-To: <000301c2fb9f$eb22e660$e9570043@hppav> Message-ID: <20030405232532.82560.qmail@web21008.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54844 Eric Oppen wrote: I've always thought that a wand is analogous to an antenna for a radio transmitter/receiver. A radio can receive or transmit without one, but the transmission is much easier with an antenna of some sort. ME: Actually, that is pretty much in line with how wands are used in real life magickal circles. A wand is supposed to help in both amplifying and directing energy which is the essence of any kind of magic. Now it's obvious that magic can be performed without wands. For example we learn in the first book that Harry Potter as a very young child would occasionally perform magic without even knowing he was capable of it. (The snake comes to mind along with other previous examples mentioned). Transfiguring is another good example it seems as it was noted that Sirius Black could transform into a dog without a wand. But I wouldn't imply that older more powerful wizards could curtail with the use of their wands. When serious magic was needed to be performed they always grabbed their wand. Examples are when Harry tricked Mallfoy into freeing his House-Elf he pulled out his wand although he ended up not daring to use it do to the before-mentioned House-Elf. And when in GOF the Minestry of Magic wizards popped up in the woods and started fireing stun spells everywhere they didn't say, "Oh well, were powerful enough to dispense with the wands. We'll just use our fingers." In fact I seriously doubt they could stun anybody with just their fingers. So wands still remain an essential component to most serious magic even if it is the wizard or witch that actually makes the magic and not the wand. Most of the examples where wands were not needed are cases where the magic is performed on oneself. (Like transfiguring or Harry jumping onto the roof or making his hair grow back. I've never read yet where anybody pointed a wand at themself to perform magic)So spells on oneself seems to be the major exception to the essential usefullness of wands. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catlady at wicca.net Sat Apr 5 23:42:55 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 23:42:55 -0000 Subject: Tom-Harry-Choices / Wand-Transformation / Questions / Wzdg Primary Education Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54845 Devika wrote: << I believe that all of the references to the physical similarities between Harry and Voldemort, as well as their similarities in upbringing only serve to strengthen JKR's (and Dumbledore's) point that it is our choices that shape who we are. Harry and Voldemort provide a perfect example of this. As Tom Riddle pointed out in CoS, there were likenesses in his and Harry's pasts. However, Tom chose one path and Harry quite clearly has chosen another for his future. Harry and Voldemort, so similar at first glance, even physically, are two very different people, and this is as a result of their choices and not their upbringings. >> I agree with Devika and everyone else who said that that was the point that JKR was trying to make. I personally believe that she failed to make that point in this case, because to me the Tom Marvolo Riddle revealed by the Diary is very obviously a sociopathy, which the kind of sociopathy that results from slight but physicala brain abnormalities and is present from birth. In which case, Tom really didn't HAVE much of a choice. Hey, even Harry wouldn't have had much of a choice if SOMETHING (and I believe it was a Charm that Lily cast to put her memory in his mind like an AI) hadn't shielded him from the normal physical effects on the brain of a child being raised in such an abusive manner. << The fact that Harry's and Voldemort's wands share cores seems to me to imply that there was a possibility that the two of them had similar potentials when they each began at Hogwarts. (I'm making the assumption that Voldemort's wand was the first one he bought before he went to Hogwarts for the first time.) Tom Riddle had just as great a potential for good as Harry had for evil (Gryffindor vs. Slytherin). >> Gryffindor versus Slytherin? Gryffindors can be evil (Pettigrew). So can't a Slytherin be good? So couldn't Harry have been good even if he had been Sorted into Slytherin and regularly encouraged to think about his personal greatness? Couldn't he have been ambitious to be greatly good? Couldn't Tom have been evil even if he had been Sorted into Gryffindor? I haven't seen any evidence that he lacked courage, altho' admittedly much that he lacked chivalry (in terms of defending the weak). Anyway, I don't think that Good vs. Evil is part of the 'resonance', or 'shoe size', that makes the particular wand fit the particular wizard. Sirius Kase replied to Devika: << Poor old Harry worries too much about whether something outside of his control makes him a bad guy, when we all know it is really his choices. >> A few months ago, someone made the Excellent point (and I Wish I remembered who it was), that Dumbledore said: "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." He didn't say: "It is our choices that make us what truly are." "Show", not "make us". Thus JKR's emphasis on choices doesn't rule out essentialism or some form of predestination. It could be that TMR was innately evil and fore-ordained to do evil, and this was shown by his choice to do evil. Thus, it could be that Harry is innately good and fore-ordained to do good, and this was shown by his choice to do good. Harry didn't need to worry whether something outside his control makes him a bad guy when he need merely look at his actions ("by their fruits you shall know them") to see that that thing outside his control actually makes him a good guy. Devika wrote: << Anyway, my point is that we don't actually know whether or not wizards can take their wands with them when they transform, and I have a feeling that they can't. >> I personally believe that one of the MANY ways in which it is better to be an Animagus than a Werewolf is that the Animagus can take anything heesh is carrying with himer when heesh transforms, and a Werewolf takes only the clothing, personal jewelry, and prostheses that heesh is wearing. Devika, who is not the only person whose posts I read, wrote: << 2) What happened to the parents of MWPP, Snape, and the other relevant witches and wizards of their generation? Are they still alive now? If Sirius's parents are still alive, do they think that he is guilty or innocent? >> Add to that: which side were Snape's parents on? Shanna wrote: << Does anyone have thoughts about how wizard children get educated prior to attending Hogwarts? I'm not referring to Muggle children, because they probably go to muggle schools first. I mean pure-blood children when I ask this. Do they attend muggle schools too, or just get taught at home? They obviously have to be able to read and write and all that, so I've always wondered how they learned! >> This question is often asked, but JKR never answered it. I believe that the Ministry of Magic has a law that parents are responsible for their children's primary education. The parents can educate their children however they want -- they can send them to Muggle schools if they want, but probably that is very rare. Look how ignorant of Muggles so many wizards are, like Ron not knowing what a fellytone is: they wouldn't be so ignorant if they had gone to Muggle schools. They can home-school their children -- I feel sure that Draco was educated at home by well-qualified tutors, and I think that young Crabbe and Goyle were invited to come daily to the Manor to share his lessons. I believe there are also many small wizarding primary schools, run by witches, sometimes in their own homes. Some listies have suggested a wizarding version of correspondence school, in which the children are taught at home by a teacher who fireplace-talks to a whole bunch of them at one time. From jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu Sun Apr 6 00:08:21 2003 From: jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu (Jonathan Pessin) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 18:08:21 -0600 Subject: Filk: Dark Wizards Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54846 To the tune of one of the most-filked songs I've ever seen, Eleanor Rigby by the Beatles. Ah, look at all the evil wizards Ah, look at all the evil wizards. Lucius Malfoy, giving a book to the child of his redheaded foe What did he know? Has a son, Draco, who he has taught to have evil and sarcastic wit; Wow, he's a git! All the evil wizards, Where do they all come from? All the evil wizards, To whom do they belong? Barty Crouch Junior, playing the part of an Auror to teach at the school; That isn't cool! Alastor Moody, trapped in his trunk so his captor can cut off his hair, Tied up down there! All the evil wizards, Where do they all come from? All the evil wizards, To whom do they belong? Tommy M. Riddle, tries to escape any death that one day has to come, "muggles are scum!" changes his name now, 'cause he's a jerk and he wants to escape from the grave, really depraved. All the evil wizards, Where do they all come from? All the evil wizards, To whom do they belong? Hobbit_guy, with apologies to all prior filkers and the beatles. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You haven't been getting into the Gaffer's home brew again, have you?" "No... Well, yes, but that's beside the point." -Frodo and Bilbo Baggins, Fellowship of the Rings Extended Edition DVD From jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu Sun Apr 6 00:16:18 2003 From: jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu (Jonathan Pessin) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 18:16:18 -0600 Subject: Education before Hogwarts? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54847 Trond Michelsen, in reference to pre-Hogwarts schooling, posted this excerpt from a JKR interview: "Q: Do wizards and witches have to go Muggle school before they go to Hogwarts? A: No, they don't have to." I postulate: This makes me wonder if there are any WIZARDING primary schools that wizarding children must attend before Hogwarts. JKR never says kids don't go to school, just that they don't attend MUGGLE schools. IMNSHO, this could imply that the Wizarding World has a primary school system in place for wizarding kids. Some parents may not have time, what's with work and all, to home-school their children; besides, I'm sure Wizarding parents are as glad to have their kids off for the day as Muggle parents are. Any thoughts? Hobbit_guy, who's happy he's only 19 and doesn't have to worry about kids yet. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You haven't been getting into the Gaffer's home brew again, have you?" "No... Well, yes, but that's beside the point." -Frodo and Bilbo Baggins, Fellowship of the Rings Extended Edition DVD From jodel at aol.com Sun Apr 6 02:07:11 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 21:07:11 EST Subject: Mr Olivander Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54848 In the figure of Olivander of Diagon Alley we get our only possible glimpse of a truly neutral party. But even there I think Olivander's aliances are more clearly with Dumbledore than they are with keeping a careful neutrality over all. He is effectively the munitions manufacturer, and supplies everybody, regardless of their alignments. On the other hand, he is also a friend of Dumbledore's. In my soon-to-be-posted essay on the significance of 1945 (most of the relevant points have already been posted here over the past several months) I state that the point at which Dumbledore knew that Tom Riddle was a real problem was when the Aurors showed up at Hogwarts regarding an investigation concerning three AKs in a Muggle villiage. That was the point at which the promising young Mr. Riddle "dropped off the face of the earth". I think that Dumbledore was the one to set the Aurors on the track, and it was around that point that someone contacted Olivander to track Riddle's wand. Olivander, who remembers every wand he has ever sold reported that that particular wand had a brother. "Voldemort" did not surface in England until some 24 years later, but at some point something must have allowed them to get a clear ID of the wand he was using which enabled those who were privy to such classified information to be sure of his ID. This might not have happened until after his defeat at Godric's Hollow, in which case the wand was in someone's keeping during the period of his exile. Possibly Hagrid's, but not certainly. Pettigrew had years to investigate the Castle after hours in the form of a rat. Given his fondness for lifting other people's wands he may have stolen it at any point and since an Animagus's wand transforms with him he has kept it since then. Since Riddle's wand had a known brother, Olivander was asked to let Dumbledore know when that particular wand found a buyer and Olivander did so. -JOdel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From meboriqua at aol.com Sun Apr 6 02:45:58 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 02:45:58 -0000 Subject: 50 Questions I would like answered in Books Five, Six, and Seven In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54849 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Sunnylove0 at a... wrote: > There are so many things I want to know, I just wrote them all down. If anyone wants to add to the list, have at it.> Really excellent list. These questions really cover much of what we've been discussing since GoF. I'd like to see many of these questions resolved, and hopefully on June 21. I just have one to add: 51) Why do all the staff members of Hogwarts appear to be single? Are any of them married? Do any of them have children? If so, will their families become important in upcoming books? --jenny from ravenclaw, who admits to thinking about OoP nearly every day ********************************************************** From patricia at obscure.org Sun Apr 6 02:57:03 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 21:57:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] My own wand theory In-Reply-To: <20030405232532.82560.qmail@web21008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54850 On Sat, 5 Apr 2003, Becky Walkden wrote: > Transfiguring is another good example it seems as it was noted that > Sirius Black could transform into a dog without a wand. It occurs to me that this may be a large part of what makes transfiguration such advanced and dangerous magic, and why so few wizards master it. Not only is the transfiguration itself is very complex, but you also have to be able to successfully complete it without a wand, because you certainly won't be able to use a wand to turn back once you are in animal form. Given how dependent most wizards are on their wands, a doubt many would even be willing to try, much less able to succeed. > Most of the examples where wands were not needed are cases where > the magic is performed on oneself. (Like transfiguring or Harry jumping > onto the roof or making his hair grow back. I've never read yet where > anybody pointed a wand at themself to perform magic)So spells on oneself > seems to be the major exception to the essential usefullness of wands. Actually, at the Quidditch World Cup Ludo Bagman points his wand at his own throat to cast the "Sonorus" spell that amplifies his voice. So we do have examples of wands used on their own wielders. I'm having trouble, though, thinking of examples of wizards or witches using controlled magic on themselves without a wand. (Incidents like freeing the snake at the zoo are spontaneous and uncontrolled, and I think they shouldn't be counted in the same category.) ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From catlady at wicca.net Sun Apr 6 03:11:10 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 03:11:10 -0000 Subject: 50 Questions I would like answered in Books Five, Six, and Seven In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54851 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jenny_ravenclaw" wrote: > 51) Why do all the staff members of Hogwarts appear to be > Are any of them married? Do any of them have children? If so, > will their families become important in upcoming books? Thanks to The Goat Pad: http://www.geocities.com/aberforths_goat/ Q: Have any of the Hogwarts professors had spouses? JKR: Good question - yes, a few of them but that information is sort of restricted - you'll find out why. From: http://www.comicrelief.com/harrysbooks/pages/transcript3.shtml Btw, here is my list of questions: ------------------------------------------------------------------ Question for JKR: 1) In the Potterverse, what is a 'warlock'? (warrior-wizard? MP-wizard?) 1.5) Are International Federation of Wizards, International Confederation of Wizards, and International Confederation of Warlocks all the same thing? 2) Why aren't Thunderbirds (aka Quetzalcoatls) in FANTASTIC BEASTS? 3) Are Boggarts (not in FB) Beings or Spirits? Are Dementors Beings or Spirits? 4) Is the Ministry of Magic part of the Muggle government? If it's separate, how is the Minister of Magic selected? 5) Does Molly Weasley have red hair like her husband and children? 6) About werewolves in the Potterverse: are they contagious when in human form, or only in wolf form? Is silver harmful to them? Are they transformed only at night or also in the daytime? For only one night, or two or three in a row? 6.5) The Wolfsbane Potion -- does Lupin have to take it every night for a week before he transforms, or just once any time during that week? 7) Is Professor Sinistra a witch or a wizard? 8) Why do they have to study so much Astronomy? Does the class include Astrology? Do they have to know the locations of the planets because they're going to travel there? 9) What is Arithmancy? 10) Is Hermione 10.4 months older or 1.6 months younger than Harry? 11) Is Fleur a Seeker on a Beauxbatons Quidditch team? For that matter, is Beauxbatons's Quidditch intramural like Hogwarts's or extramural? 12) Does the Fidelius Charm remove the information from people who used to know it before the Charm was cast? Does it conceal the information from all people or only the ones specified when the Charm was cast? Did Sirius know to check on Peter and Dumbledore know to send Hagrid to the Potter house because Sirius and Dumbledore suddenly noticed that they once again knew where the Potters were hiding? 13) Do the wizarding folk have recorded music? Does anyone listen to Wizarding Wireless at Hogwarts? Are the professional Quidditch Matches broadcast? 14) How old is Lucius Malfoy (born 1950?) How old are Arthur and Molly Weasley (same age as Hagrid? Older?) At what age do witches hit the change of life? 15) Are Spells the same thing as Charms? because the Standard Book of Spells is the Charms textbook. 16) Is Blaise Zabini a boy or a girl? What are the given names and the Houses of the students in Harry's year named Moon and [T.] Nott? Is Miss Fawcett of Ravenclaw, who tried to fool the Age Line, the same Miss Fawcett who was in the rosebush with Stebbins (or is that one a Hufflepuff)? The same Miss Fawcett who was at the Dueling Club? The same as S. Fawcett who checked out QUIDDITCH THROUGH THE AGES from the library? What does S stand for? 17) Is there ever a Muggle-born student Sorted into Slytherin? How do they stand the abuse from the purebloodists? 18) How many prefects are there and who chooses them? Does the Sorting Hat choose them? 19) Does the J in Remus J. Lupin stand for Justyn, Januarius, Jabez, or Job? Are James Potter's middle names Godric Merlin? Is Sirius Black's middle name Orion? 20) The Weasleys' names -- is Bill short for Bilius like his uncle who died from seeing a Grim, is Charlie short for Charles, is Percy short for Percival, is Fred short for Frederick or Alfred, is Ginny short for Virginia or Gwenevere/Jennifer or Eugenia, or are they all actual given names, not short for something else? 21) Can you confirm that Black, Lupin, and Pettigrew were in Gryffindor with Potter and Evans? 22) Was Grindelwald active in Britain or in Europe or both? Did he terrorize the wizarding folk kind of like Voldemort? 23) Was Karkaroff recruited by Voldemort in Britain or or in his native country? Did he do his crimes in Britain or in his native country? Was he a teacher at Hogwarts when he was recruited, did he recruit Snape as still a student? 24) Can a Squib, or a Muggle, make Potions if they can get the magic ingredients, or does a person have to use magic to make the Potion brew correctly? 25) Is "Godric's Hollow" the name of a house or the name of a village/neighborhood? 26) I can't think of any way in which non-violent resistance (like Gandhi and Martin Luther King) could do any good against Voldemort and his loyal Death Eaters. What do you think of non-violence in real life Muggle situations? 27) Please confirm that Salam Witches' Institute (mentioned in GoF) is the Women's Institute, not a girls' school or university. From briony_coote at hotmail.com Sat Apr 5 23:35:09 2003 From: briony_coote at hotmail.com (Briony Coote) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 11:35:09 +1200 Subject: If Dumbledore were an Animagus, or even a Polymagus Message-ID: <000b01c2fbcb$ff521ee0$20a7a7cb@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 54852 Dear All, There was a recent discussion as to whether Dumbledore was an Animagus, perhaps a bumblebee. I can't see any reason why he should not be a Polymagus i.e., able to take several shapes. McGonagall can certainly take more than one animal shape, so why shouldn't Dumbledore? I know this is not very likely, but is it possible that Dumbledore is Crookshanks? I don't think it's Arabella Figg, because Crookshanks is male. If Dumbledore had a Time Turner, or some means to be in two places at once, that would certainly explain a lot of things in PoA, like: 1. Why does Hermione happen to buy Crookshanks only minutes after Crookshanks has chased off Pettigrew? Isn't that stretching coincidence, especially since Hermione was going to buy an owl? Alternatively, Crookshanks could be a member of Sirius' family who is also an illegal animagus, but even Sirius doesn't know. They have been hiding in their animal form because they were ashamed of the stain on their family. 2. How did Dumbledore seem to know that Buckbeak had been rescued, and take steps from stopping the Ministry from searching the forest? This is well before Hermione's Time Turner, and 11.55, when Dumbledore suggested they use the TT to rescue Sirius. 3. Why did Dumbledore believe Sirius, or even question him at all? Did he already know the truth, thanks to his Animagus form? And here is food for thought: If Dumbledore is an Animagus/Polymagus, could he use his form to sneak into Azkaban and stop Voldemort and the Dementors from breaking Azkaban open? Sirius has already demonstrated that an Animagus can get out of Azkaban, so why couldn't somebody use their form to break in? Briony Coote [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sarohpenguin at hotmail.com Sun Apr 6 00:00:11 2003 From: sarohpenguin at hotmail.com (Sally) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 00:00:11 -0000 Subject: Voldemort Rising from the Ashes? Book title In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54853 I've actually been thinking about this a little bit lately, and at some point I wondered why everyone was automatically assuming that the Order was Dumbledore's "old gang." I admit it seems very likely, but did any of us know what the other titles referred to before we'd read the book? I've been thinking about Harry and Voldemort both having Fawkes' feathers in their wands. Could the Order of the Phoenix have something to do with that? I don't have a theory formed yet, it's just an abstract thought... but I thought I'd throw it out there. :) *~Sally~* From fashionmenu at hotmail.com Sun Apr 6 03:18:12 2003 From: fashionmenu at hotmail.com (dublinaaireland) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 03:18:12 -0000 Subject: 50 Questions I would like answered in Books Five, Six, and Seven In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54854 Only signed up the other day, so if I add something to the wrong post/section, I apologise but I have two other questions... 1) is Lilly Potter related to either Mr or Mrs Weasley - a cousin, perhaps ie red hair?? 2) doesn't anyone think that Mrs Norris is an odd name for a cat or is she not really a cat and if so, where is Mr Norris?? D From sarohpenguin at hotmail.com Sun Apr 6 00:12:33 2003 From: sarohpenguin at hotmail.com (Sally) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 00:12:33 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Wand (was Re: Charlie's wand) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54855 Has anyone else noticed that there is a yew tree in the graveyard where Tom Riddle (Sr.) is buried? Is it possible that Voldemort, for some reason, commissioned to have his wand made from the wood of this tree? *~Sally~* From PlaidMouse at kittymail.com Sun Apr 6 02:02:37 2003 From: PlaidMouse at kittymail.com (plaidmouse) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 02:02:37 -0000 Subject: Wormtail's Wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54856 Devika: > It's unlikely that Sirius has a wand at > all, having been in Azkaban for 12 years. Oh, duh. You're right. I'm not usually this spacey. :-P Sorry about that. Annemehr: >It is no stretch to believe that the contents of a >wizard's pockets transform right along with their clothes when they go >into animagus form. Even though Sirius does not have a wand, we have >seen him, Peter, and McGonagall transform several times and never has >*anything* fallen to the floor which had up until that moment been in >their pockets. In fact, now I think of it, Sirius did pull the Daily >Prophet clipping out from his robes in the Shrieking Shack which >apparently he had with him since before he escaped from Azkaban. This is what I was trying to say. When Sirius and McGonagall transform, their clothes transform with them, since when they turn back into humans, their clothes come with them. Mouse From tinne4 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 6 03:29:32 2003 From: tinne4 at yahoo.com (tinne4) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 03:29:32 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Wand (was Re: Charlie's wand) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54857 Dear Sally, I find it interesting that it would be made of a yew branch. The yew is the symbolic tree of death. Harry's wand is made of Holly, wich is the tree of life and justice. That is the only reason that I could think of. I would like to hear other opinions though. Holly --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sally" wrote: > Has anyone else noticed that there is a yew tree in the graveyard > where Tom Riddle (Sr.) is buried? Is it possible that Voldemort, for > some reason, commissioned to have his wand made from the wood of this > tree? > > *~Sally~* From catlady at wicca.net Sun Apr 6 04:55:35 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 04:55:35 -0000 Subject: 2nd hand wand / Polymagus / Mrs Norris / Yew Tree Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54858 Karen oc1 wrote: << But wouldn't it also be possible for there to be second-hand wand stores? >> CoS: "in a tiny junk shop full of broken wands, lopsided brass scales, and old cloaks covered in potion stains they found Percy, deeply immersed in a small and deeply boring book called Prefects Who Gained Power." "Briony Coote" wrote: << McGonagall can certainly take more than one animal shape, >> Please point me to the evidence that McGonagall can take more than one animal shape, as I haven't noticed it. "dublinaaireland" wrote: << 2) doesn't anyone think that Mrs Norris is an odd name for a cat or is she not really a cat and if so, where is Mr Norris?? >> Oh, yes, there is a really elaborate set of theories in which she was a witch, the wife of a Death Eater, who turned her into a cat to punish her for cheating on him with a Squib, and Filch's desperation to learn magic (from Kwikspell) is because he needs to lift the curse .... I can't remember the acronym. Sally Penguin wrote: << Has anyone else noticed that there is a yew tree in the graveyard where Tom Riddle (Sr.) is buried? >> Yes, but it is said to be normal to have yew trees in English graveyards. From drdara at yahoo.com Sun Apr 6 03:23:17 2003 From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 19:23:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Charlie's Wand. In-Reply-To: <20030405102910.19724.qmail@web14901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030406032317.30470.qmail@web14502.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54859 Alex said" Absolutly BRILLIANT post, Bboy! I especially like the "different tree, different effect" idea. Now enlighten me on why, if Ollivander knew that V.'s wand gave Harry the scar, and if he "knows every wand he has ever sold", why he didn't know that Tom Riddle was V.! It HAD to be his same wand that he had, because of the "Priori Incantatum"! Am I just tripping?Or did Tom get a NEW wand after Hogwarts? HELP! This has been bugging me for weeks, and I can't get an answer! Alex Fox To which I reply How do we know that Ollivander didn't know that Lord V was Riddle. For all we know he did know, but says you know who like everyone else. All DD ever said was that a few people knew that Lord V was Riddle. He didn't say that no one knew he was Riddle. danielle __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com From d_lea25 at yahoo.ca Sun Apr 6 06:13:17 2003 From: d_lea25 at yahoo.ca (Lea) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 01:13:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's wand (was Re: Wormtail's Wand) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030406061317.39046.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54860 Alex wrote: >I think that the only reasons that Cedric is killed >by Wormtail >with Voldemort's wand are (1) because Voldemort >doesn't have >the capability to use his wand yet And now Me: page 19 of GoF distinctly states that Voldemort is the one who uses his wand in order to kill Frank Bryce.. "He was screaming so loudly that he never heard the the words the thing in the chair spoke, as it raised a wand. There was a flash of green light, a rushing sound, and Frank Bryce crumpled. He was dead before he hit the floor." I thught there was also something in there about Voldemort using his wand on Wormtail to perform Cruciatis on him, but I can't put my finger on it at this time. Maybe I'm just dreaming that one. However, it would appear that Voldemort did have the capability to use his wand, even prior to the ceremony in the graveyard. So it's likely that it WAS Voldemort who killed Bertha. And since Cedric was also killed with Voldemort's wand, it would appear that Wormtail was carrying his Master's wand to the graveyard, knowing that his Master was going to be placed into a cauldron of boiling potion. I'm sure that no wand could have withstood that and there was really no reason to, IMHO. Lea, who apologizes if someone else has already brought out this point - she is somewhat behind in reading threads today! --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tammy at mauswerks.net Sun Apr 6 06:24:31 2003 From: tammy at mauswerks.net (Tammy Rizzo) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 01:24:31 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's wand (was Re: Wormtail's Wand) In-Reply-To: <20030406061317.39046.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: <3E8F81CF.11316.85C1D3C@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 54861 On 6 Apr 2003 at 1:13, Lea wrote: > However, it would appear that Voldemort did have the capability to use > his wand, even prior to the ceremony in the graveyard. So it's likely > that it WAS Voldemort who killed Bertha. And since Cedric was also > killed with Voldemort's wand, it would appear that Wormtail was > carrying his Master's wand to the graveyard, knowing that his Master > was going to be placed into a cauldron of boiling potion. I'm sure > that no wand could have withstood that and there was really no reason > to, IMHO. Y'know, I think this is the first time I've seen that point brought up, that Voldemort was gonna be basically boiled to (un)death, like a bunch of turnips. I don't think I'd have wanted my wand in the pot with me in that case. In fact, I can't help but wonder what would have happened if the wand HAD been in the cauldron with Voldemort. Would it have contributed its characteristics to his new body? Would he be truly one with his wand, since it had gone into reconsitituting his new physical form? I really like the idea that Wormtail had Voldemort's wand because it couldn't go into the cauldron with him. Tammy (who's halfway through GoF for the third time) From catlady at wicca.net Sun Apr 6 06:50:04 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 06:50:04 -0000 Subject: Mrs Norris In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54862 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > there is a really elaborate set of theories in which [Mrs Norris] > was a witch, the wife of a Death Eater, who turned her into a cat > to punish her for cheating on him with a Squib, and Filch's > desperation to learn magic (from Kwikspell) is because he needs to > lift the curse .... I can't remember the acronym. FLIRTIAC http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/hypotheticalley.html#norris From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Apr 6 08:03:52 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 08:03:52 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Wand (was Re: Charlie's wand) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54863 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sally" wrote: > Has anyone else noticed that there is a yew tree in the graveyard > where Tom Riddle (Sr.) is buried? Is it possible that Voldemort, for > some reason, commissioned to have his wand made from the wood of this > tree? > > *~Sally~* bboy_mn: There is a yew tree in the graveyard because that's where you usually find yew trees. I'm under the impression that this is very common in Europe. If you've been following any of the wand making threads, then you would seen how difficult it is to make a wand. Remember the wand chooses the wizard, which implies that you can commission or custom order a wand to specifications. The only way you could do that is if you yourself had an extreme talent for wand making and a very good understanding of your own wand requirements. The matching of a wizard and a wand occurs on a very deep level. Harry did try other Phoenix wands that did NOT match him, so if he needed another wand, it's not likely that he could go into a shop and say I want an 11 inch holly and phoenix wand, and expect to get a perfect match. In fact, I predict that if Harry ever gets another wand, it will have a core of dragon heart string. Can't prove that, but make note of it, that's my prediction. I suspect we will see whether I am right or wrong before the end of the book. (In my fan fiction, I gave him a second wand of dragon heart with a yew shaft and holly handle, but then that's another story all together.) So unless Voldemort has an extreme talent for and understand of the wand making art, I doubt that he custom ordered a wand. Of course, that's just my opinion. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Apr 6 08:26:31 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 08:26:31 -0000 Subject: 50 Questions I would like answered in Books Five, Six, and Seven In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54864 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Sunnylove0 at a... wrote: > There are so many things I want to know, I just wrote them all down. > If anyone wants to add to the list, have at it. > **************** > 50 great question plue two more good ones added by someone else > *********** > The Queen of Serpents > bboy_mn: Did any of you got to the Saturday serial matinees when you were a kid; like Commander Cody, or Buck Rogers. These were never ending serial adventures in the form of really cheap low tech movies. Each saturday they would resolve the 'cliff hanger' from the week before and leave you with a new cliff hanger to get the kids back the next Saturday. The kids loved them, but the parents hated them. They were like soap opera in that they were addicting. As bad as they were, you couldn't wait to get back to the theater the next Saturday to see what happened. Having read the 'list of 50 question', that's what JKR's books seem like, serial matinees, only a lot higher quality, with a lot more complex and deeper plots, and instead of resolving the previous cliff hangers, she just adds a half a dozen more. We'll have to wait five years for all these plot questions to be fully answered. That's got to be the worlds record for the most and the longest cliff hangers ever. How will we survive that long? bboy_mn From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Apr 6 15:02:09 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 6 Apr 2003 15:02:09 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <1049641329.27.50429.m10@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54865 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat Date: Sunday, April 6, 2003 Time: 11:00AM - 7:00PM CDT (GMT-05:00) Hi everyone! Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type /join HP:1 For further info, see the Humongous BigFile, section 3.3. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hbfile.html#33 Hope to see you there! From Zarleycat at aol.com Sun Apr 6 15:13:55 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 15:13:55 -0000 Subject: 50 Questions I would like answered in Books Five, Six, and Seven In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54866 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Sunnylove0 at a... wrote: > There are so many things I want to know, I just wrote them all down. If > anyone wants to add to the list, have at it. > **************** 1. Why did Peter betray his friends? 2. It doesn't appear that wizards study anything to do with culture - music, art, dance, literature, - whether their own or the Muggle variety. Why not? From jodel at aol.com Sun Apr 6 16:28:49 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 12:28:49 EDT Subject: General apology Message-ID: <1aa.1298b870.2bc1afc1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54867 The spammers have lifted my e-mail address. I just got a bounce message over something that I never sent and which is obviously commercial spam. I don't know whether this will start being sent to lists under my name, since I don't think it is sending this stuff to my address book. but please let me know if it does. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Sun Apr 6 07:26:07 2003 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 07:26:07 -0000 Subject: We Love To Go To Hogsmeade (a filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54868 This is a filk of the song "I Love To Cry At Weddings" from the Cy Coleman and Dorothy Fields musical "Sweet Charity". It's called "We Love To Go To Hogsmeade". You can hear the original music at: http://www.broadwaymidi.com/shows/sweet_charity.html This filk is dedicated to my new friend Textual Sphinx-- or, as I call her, "Tex"-- as a votive offering for all the enjoyment I experienced when I read her erudite history and sang along with fabulous filks of her Sorting Songs. We Love To Go To Hogsmeade SCENE: The Weasley twins are enumerating the wonders of Hogsmeade to Harry, who has been unable to get his permission slip signed. FRED: We love to go to Hogsmeade, We have so much fun at Hogsmeade. In Honeydukes there's chocoballs And cockroach clusters in the stalls. The Shrieking Shack will scare you, Just go there if you dare to. In Zonko's Joke Shop you can find Great dungbombs that will blow your mind. The kind of "kaboom" tricks That can blow up the Three Broomsticks; Pranks quite guaranteed to entertain. We love to go to Hogsmeade, Wizard town of Hogsmeade, Near the school, near the lake, near the train. GEORGE: We love to go to Hogsmeade, We are mesmerized by Hogsmeade. We heard that you can't make that trip 'Cause you have no permission slip. No matter, we're elated; We've this thing Filch confiscated. So Harry, don't you shed a tear We brought a bit of festive cheer. This map's the thing that you Need; you just tap on the statue. "Dissendium" you say, and down you climb. If you want to go to Hogsmeade-- Underground to Hogsmeade-- With this map, it's a snap, every time. (Harry gets introduced to the mysteries of the Marauder's Map, courtesy of Fred & George Weasley, and Messrs. Moony, Padfoot, Wormtail and Prongs.) -Haggridd From nj13guy at yahoo.com Sun Apr 6 14:06:25 2003 From: nj13guy at yahoo.com (Potter Hermione forever) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 14:06:25 -0000 Subject: 50 Questions I would like answered in Books Five, Six, and Seven In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54869 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Sunnylove0 at a... wrote: > There are so many things I want to know, I just wrote them all down. If > anyone wants to add to the list, have at it. now me: These are very good questions. I would like to add two. 1. Why did Dumbledore's eyes show a look of triumph when Harry told him about Wormtail taking Harry's blood in order to regenerate Voldemort? Is it because Voldemort was not mortal before. But, is he now mortal after taking Harry's blood? 2. Dumbledore said that Harry will be very grateful one day that he saved Wormtail's life. How will that play out? This seems similar to the Gollum and Frodo situation in LotR. Will Wormtail play an instrumental but nwilling role in Voldemort's death/downfall? nj13guy From a_rude_mechanical at yahoo.com Sun Apr 6 16:46:21 2003 From: a_rude_mechanical at yahoo.com (a_rude_mechanical) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 16:46:21 -0000 Subject: 50 Questions I would like answered in Books Five, Six, and Seven In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54870 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Sunnylove0 at a... wrote: > There are so many things I want to know, I just wrote them all down. If > anyone wants to add to the list, have at it. 1) Concerning the Marauder's Map: what exactly DOES it show? Everyone on the grounds? Or only the people that the witch/wizard holding the map might be interested in seeing? Clearly it doesn't only show professors, it doesn't conceal animagi or those using polyjuice potion, and it doesn't show only those people whom the holder of the map knows. So what is its deal? And didn't anyone happen to see Harry and Hermione on the map twice? They were hanging out by Hagrid's cabin while everyone ran to the Shrieking Shack, if I remember correctly. Did Lupin not see them there? Would they show up at all? 2) When did Bill Weasley graduate? What was he doing at Hogwarts five years before the final event at the Tri-Wizard Tournament? 3) Why does Perkins' tent look and smell like Mrs. Figg's house? 4) Snape, vampire: is he or isn't he? On a side note, why is it that none (well, so few) of the adult wizards and witches are able to dress in proper muggle clothing, but their children manage it without difficulty?? Love this topic, Elisabeth From finwitch at yahoo.com Sun Apr 6 19:32:50 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 19:32:50 -0000 Subject: If Dumbledore were an Animagus, or even a Polymagus In-Reply-To: <000b01c2fbcb$ff521ee0$20a7a7cb@oemcomputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54871 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Briony Coote" wrote: > > There was a recent discussion as to whether Dumbledore was an Animagus, > perhaps a bumblebee. I can't see any reason why he should not be a > Polymagus i.e., able to take several shapes. McGonagall can certainly > take more than one animal shape, so why shouldn't Dumbledore? .... > If Dumbledore is an Animagus/Polymagus, could he use his form to sneak > into Azkaban and stop Voldemort and the Dementors from breaking Azkaban > open? Sirius has already demonstrated that an Animagus can get out of > Azkaban, so why couldn't somebody use their form to break in? Hmm.. I don't know if McConagall can take more than one shape; I've only read of her being a cat. I don't discount the possibility of taking many forms, even one of choice, but so far there's nothing to say that even the first form can be chosen by the wizard. However, Albus "it's our choices far more than our abilities that make us what we are" Dumbledore might well be able to choose *any* animal. Like well - it's nothing, one or all. And what comes to someone using animagus form to break in to Azkaban, well- they *can*, but I doubt anyone would *want* to. So they won't unless they have a good reason... -- Finwitch From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Sun Apr 6 20:19:35 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 16:19:35 EDT Subject: Dementor Question/Re: 50 Questions Message-ID: <181.191982cc.2bc1e5d7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54872 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Sunnylove0 at a... wrote: > There are so many things I want to know, I just wrote them all down. If > anyone wants to add to the list, have at it. 1. Why do wizards distrust werewolves? 2. How has Lupin managed to live if he can't get a paying job? 3. Why did Draco continue to take Care of Magical Creatures if he hates Hagrid? and lastly: How will the series end?! Also, Remus told the DADA class that although Muggles cannot see dementors, they can feel them. Are there any examples of how Muggles feel them or where they feel them? ===== Oryomai Rest In Peace Brett Al-Salih 1985(4?) - 2003 Penn-Trafford High School's first fatality in a long time. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dorigen at hotmail.com Sun Apr 6 21:57:34 2003 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 21:57:34 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dementor Question/Re: 50 Questions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54873 These are excellent questions, and although obviously I don't have any canon answers I have guesses for the following: >1. Why do wizards distrust werewolves? This one seems easy. They distrust werewolves because werewolves, in wolf form, are dangerous bloodthirsty predators whose human prey, if it survives, will become another of the same. This seems like a perfectly good reason to me. What I don't understand is why wizards haven't made arrangements to deal with this problem such as requiring werewolves to register themselves and provide appropriate shelter and security during the full moon. Of course, this doesn't explain why they're so nasty to werewolves at other times than the full moon. I think probably most werewolves aren't as nice or as well socialized as Lupin. Draco was afraid to go into the Forbidden Forest because of the werewolves there. Probably most werewolves are thieves, criminals, or otherwise marginalized members of wizard society due to their curse, and people like Lupin who try to cope in a civilized manner are stereotyped as untrustworthy for that reason. >3. Why did Draco continue to take Care of Magical Creatures if he hates >Hagrid? Either because it's required, or because his father told him to because he wants to keep track of Hagrid's movements -- which may mean that someone on Voldemort's side has actually noticed how useful Hagrid is to Dumbledore. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From finwitch at yahoo.com Sun Apr 6 20:08:07 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 20:08:07 -0000 Subject: Questions I would like answered in Books Five, Six, and Seven In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54874 Some questions I'd like answered: 1)Why Albus Dumbledore isn't certain of his brother's literacy? 2)Does Albus Dumbledore have any other relatives alive? If, do we know them already? 3)Does "Harry's scar" ever refer to anything else than the scar on our boy's forehead? Wizarding orphanage? Inn? Cafe? Quidditch team? 4)What's with all the cats of Mrs Arabella Figg? 5) Why does Peeves fear the Bloody Baron? 6) What's the meaning of the blood stains of Bloody Baron? 7) Is Harry/Ron a true Seer? 8) Will Hermione ever defeat a boggart? 9) Is there any thing with the "only few wizards can do" -label that Harry Potter isn't able to learn or do naturally? -- Finwitch From patricia at obscure.org Sun Apr 6 22:07:07 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 18:07:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dementor Question/Re: 50 Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54875 On Sun, 6 Apr 2003, Janet Anderson wrote: > >3. Why did Draco continue to take Care of Magical Creatures if he hates > >Hagrid? > > Either because it's required, or because his father told him to because he > wants to keep track of Hagrid's movements -- which may mean that someone on > Voldemort's side has actually noticed how useful Hagrid is to Dumbledore. Also, Care of Magical Creatures is probably an "easy A" (or whatever the top mark at Hogwarts is). Hagrid may introduce them to ridiculously dangerous beasts, but his coursework doesn't seem too intellectually challenging. After all, the CoMC final exam in PoA was simply keeping flobberworms alive until the exam period was over. How could Draco pass up an easy grade like that? ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From neilward at dircon.co.uk Sun Apr 6 22:48:06 2003 From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 22:48:06 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: spam/viruses (was Re: General apology) In-Reply-To: <1aa.1298b870.2bc1afc1@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54876 Dear all, Re. Jodel's post, the spam in this case was almost certainly transmitted by the klez worm (virus), which is sent in message attachments. Attachments are discarded on all our lists, so you are not at risk of viral infection. For more information on the klez worm, please visit the following link: http://securityresponse.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/w32.klez.h at mm. html Any spam that reaches our lists in this way would be picked up by our pending message system as coming from a "new" member, so there is no need for concern about this. If anyone has information on potential viruses or spam, please contact the Moderators at HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com rather than posting direct to the lists. Thanks! HPfGU Moderators From drdara at yahoo.com Sun Apr 6 23:18:48 2003 From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 16:18:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dementor Question/Re: 50 Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030406231848.79604.qmail@web14511.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54877 Janet Anderson: 3. Why did Draco continue to take Care of Magical Creatures if he hates Hagrid? Either because it's required, or because his father told him to because he wants to keep track of Hagrid's movements -- which may mean that someone on Voldemort's side has actually noticed how useful Hagrid is to Dumbledore. I think Draco keeps this class because A: he is told to keep an eye on Harry Potter, B: he likes to make fun of Harry and Hagrid too much or C; it's because in order to drop this class he must replace it with something else, to keep up a certain amount of classes he must have each and every term, there is probably no other real easy class to take "Danielle" __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com From gandharvika at hotmail.com Mon Apr 7 02:12:34 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 02:12:34 +0000 Subject: (FILK): Four Weeks Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54878 The day the Goblet of Fire selected the Tri-Wizard Champions was October 31. The day of the First Task was November 24. So, it was twenty-five days between these two events. But "Twenty-Five Days" don't scan. Therefore, I've taken a bit of artistic license and have entitled this filk... Four Weeks (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _One Week_ by the Barenaked Ladies) Sing along to the Midi (good luck): http://members.fortunecity.com/ultimate_midi_madness/Alternative.html If you don't know how it goes, then here's a Real Audio snippet: http://www.buy.com/retail/music/product.asp?sku=60509444 Dedicated to Lilac, who inspired my filking career with her own filk by the Barenaked Ladies (it's this one, if you're curious: http://home.att.net/~coriolan/students/weasleys.htm#If_We_Had_A_Million_Galleons ) This filk is a real tongue-twister...I'll be surprised if anybody gets it right on the first try. But it *does* work, believe me. Oh, and the Midi is a little different than the original, especially in the second part of the song...just so's ya know. Harry: It's been four weeks since the incident The night my name came out from the Goblet Three weeks since the Potions Class when Hermione kept saying, "Ignore them" Two weeks since the interview It was all about me and it ticked off the whole school Today, the first task is here I'm all alone and the dragon is right there What you say I don't believe you Would I deceive you? Do you really think I'm lying? Entered my name in the game but what you're sayin' is insane How do you think I would've gotten 'cross the Age Line? I am telling you the straight truth I did not do But you're acting like an idiot Now you're not talking to me And now the school sees And they all think that I did it Hasn't been this bad since when I had That awful year when they were mad And they all thought that I was the Heir of Slytherin With your assistance found the entrance Been a while since but the diff'rence Is that you were my friend and had supported me back then I don't think it's fair how you've treated me this way The time I needed you the most you turned away Tell you something that was told to me by Hagrid "Always seems like everything happens to you," he said I must agree that it really seems like it does I have a tendency to get into trouble It's been four weeks since I stood accused You called me liar right there in our dorm room Three weeks since Herbology Hufflepuffs laughed when the Bouncing Bulb hit me Two weeks since the Potions Class when Draco and his friends wore their "Potter Stinks" buttons Today, the First Task is on I'm too nervous to be mad at you, Ron Diggory, Cedric the Hogwarts Champion I'm a Champ too, but there should only be one They say I've taken Cedric's glory Like Lockhart's stories Directing all the attention towards me I'm spending more time with Hermione At the library I swear she's got the whole place memorized She says I'm stubborn, I don't miss you Okay, I miss you But I'm not talking 'till you apologize I told my mess to Sirius And he was going to suggest A simple spell but then you came and interrupted Gonna take Draco and break his nose And make him ache because of those badges he has That show how much I'm hated I don't think it's fair how you've treated me this way The time I needed you the most you turned away Tell you something that was told to me by Hagrid "Always seems like everything happens to you," he said I must agree that it really seems like it does I have a tendency to get into trouble It's been four weeks or a little less Hermione told me you were jealous Two weeks since the detention Two hours with you and Snape in the dungeons One week since that badge I threw Hit you in the head and said, "Hope ya get a scar, too!" Today, the First Task is done We're friends again, it's like nothing ever happened We're friends again, it's like nothing ever happened We're friends again, it's like nothing ever happened We're friends again, it's like nothing ever happened -Gail B.... 1 _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From alexpie at aol.com Mon Apr 7 03:21:39 2003 From: alexpie at aol.com (alexpie at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 23:21:39 EDT Subject: Command of the Phoenix? Message-ID: <1d1.6c663a1.2bc248c3@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54879 I know that this is way, way out in left field, but order does have more than one meaning. What if it is something demanded of Harry, and does not refer to a group? The Order of the Phoenix could just as well mean the demand or request of the phoenix. Unlikely, I know, but just thought I'd toss it out. It is very likely that this has been suggested before, but I sometimes have problems with downloading the list, so I apologize if I've added to the boredom factor. From someone who is a pedant for a living-- Ba [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vinnia_chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz Mon Apr 7 04:04:22 2003 From: vinnia_chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz (=?iso-8859-1?q?Vinnia=20Chrysshallie?=) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 16:04:22 +1200 (NZST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] 50 Questions I would like answered in Books Five, Six, and Seven In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030407040422.84002.qmail@web41207.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54880 --- Sunnylove0 at aol.com wrote: --------------------------------- There are so many things I want to know, I just wrote them all down. If anyone wants to add to the list, have at it. **************** 1. How does Dumbledore knows everything? Can he read mind? 2. Why have we never heard of any Weasley extended family? If indeed all Weasley have many children, there should be plenty of them! 3. Will Dudley's diet be a success? (This one will be interesting to see!) 4. If one day, the Dursleys need Harry's help, will he turn them down? 5. Can muggle see magical creature? What about magical plant? 6. How did Dumbledore get his scar of london underground? Is this a map of gringot's vaults? 7. What happened to grandparent's generation of the current students? The only grandparents we ever heard of is Neville's, if wizards live for a long time, most of student's grandparents should still be around. 8. Where is Aberforth now? 9. why does Sirius wait 12 years before breaking out of Azkaban? Why did he not do it while he was stronger? Is he not as innocent as we think he is? 10. Who is the bloody baron? 11. Who told Tom Riddle he is the last decendant of Slytherin? These are questions I would like to be answered, but somehow I don't think we'd ever find out: 1. How old is Vernon and Petunia? If Vernon is only a few years older than Lily, how did he become a director of a company at such a young age? 2. What happened at the missing 24 hours? 3. Does the wizarding money-muggle money exchange rate fluctuate according to what's happening at either side of the world? 4. How do muggle-born students get used to writing with quills so quickly? 5. Where is Hogwart's express during term time? Well, that's all I can think of at the moment. Vinnia http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile - Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone mobile. From hphgrwlca at yahoo.com Mon Apr 7 04:04:31 2003 From: hphgrwlca at yahoo.com (Christine Acker) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 21:04:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pettigrew in Gryffindor? (was: Tom-Harry-Choices / Wand-Transformation / Questions / Wzdg) In-Reply-To: <1049625282.3902.96957.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030407040431.99113.qmail@web13005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54881 Catlady wrote: Gryffindors can be evil (Pettigrew). Now me: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe there is any canon that says Pettigrew was in Gryffindor. I certainly think he should have been (even if he wasn't) sorted into Slytherin. To go even further, I don't think there is any canon that Sirius and Lupin were in Gryffindor, either. I actually read a fanfic somewhere in which Harry asks Lupin about being in Gryffindor and Lupin replies, "What made you think I was in Gryffindor?" I'd appreciate any insights on this. Christine, who visited the pronunciation guide at the Bloomsbury website and discovered she and her Potter pals have been pronouncing everything wrong __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com From grace701 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 7 05:04:54 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 05:04:54 -0000 Subject: 50 Questions I would like answered in Books Five, Six, and Seven In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54882 Alright, since Sunny got the ball rolling, here are mine: 1) Did Hermione every visit Krum? Did/Does she really like him? 2) Will we/Harry/Ron ever get to know Hermione's parents/family? 3) Will Harry and Ron ever visit Hermione's home? 4) Will the Muggle world get involved in the battle against Voldemort? Will Voldemort kill Muggles? Are Hermione's and Dean's parents in danger? Are they going to die? Are the Dursleys' in danger? 5) Who is Doris Crockford? 6) Is Crookshanks one of Mrs. Figg's cats? 7) Is it a coincidence that Hermione, the smartest girl of her class, buys a cat which is, presumably, the smartest of its kind? 8) Did Pettigrew, as Scabbers, in anyway influenced the Weasleys? Did he speak to them about doing evil things for Voldemort as they slept? 9) Is it a coincidence that Pettigrew "found" the Weasleys? 10)Can a dementor give back a person's soul? As Catlady noted, I'd like to add to this: >Does the Fidelius Charm remove the information from people who >used to know it before the Charm was cast? Does it conceal the >information from all people or only the ones specified when the >Charm was cast? Did Sirius know to check on Peter and Dumbledore >know to send Hagrid to the Potter house because Sirius and >Dumbledore suddenly noticed that they once again knew where the >Potters were hiding? 11)If Sirius and Dumbledore knew where the Potters were, did they forget once the charm was made? If so, do they remember once the charm is broken? Ex. Once James and Lily died the charm has been broken and because of this Sirius and Dumbledore knew right away something was wrong? 12) What is going to happen to the Quidditch team? 13) How is Hogwart's going to be affected by Dumbledore's decision to tell the students about V's return before giving the parents the opportunity to do so? Will parents take their children out of school? 14) Will parents believe Dumbledore and take his side? Who else will be on Dumbledore's side? Who will be on V's? 15) Who are these "sources" that Dumbledore uses to find out V's whereabouts? 16) Will the Hogwart's students ever have self-defense classes in case of a battle against V? Will there be a dueling/fencing class? 17) Who will fall in love with whom? ;) 18) Will we ever see Neville's full potential? 19) Was Lily a Seer? 20) Will we ever read the book in another character's perspective? 21) Will Harry go somewhere else besides Hogsmeade and the Weasley's? 22) Will someone betray Harry? Whom? 23) What is Hermione's deepest desire? 24) Will we see the following again: The Mirror of Erised? Firenze? Bane? Ronan? Unicorns? The Ford Anglia? Lockhart? 25) Will the Weasley Twins create their own shop? 26) Although he's a Squib, Filch seems to appears rather quickly when Mrs. Norris sees something fishy. How does he appear so quickly? Does Mrs. Norris help him? 27) Will the Trio, or one of them, learn to Transform to an animal? 28) Will anyone join the Trio, making it the Quad clique? 29) Will Sirius be cleared before book 7? 30) Will Rita keep the pact she "made" with Hermione? Will she give anything away? 31) What does Lucius keep under the trap door in the drawing room? 32) Will the Trio act more sour towards the Slytherin Trio knowing what they know about their parents? 33) Will Neville tell someone about his parents? Will it be Harry, Hermione, or Ginny? 34) Will Harry ever get to speak to his parents? See them again? 35) Will Krum and/or Fleur come back? 36) Will we see more of Charlie and Bill? 37) What's the deal with Lily's and Harry's eyes? 38) Why are both Hermione and Lily described as "silly girls"? Are they alike, personality-wise? 39) Who are the people who knew Voldemort was Tom Riddle, besides Dumbledore and Ollivander? 40) Will the Time-Turner be used again? 41) Will there be an ambush on the Hogwarts train? Hogwarts school? Weasley's home? 42) Did Ron and Hermione try to fight against the Imperius Curse that Crouch!Moody was performing? If so, how did they do? 43) What is Harry and Ron's deepest desire now that they are a bit more mature? 44) Will there ever be more balls? Will Dumbledore try to make Hogwarts a fun, yet cautious, place now that V is back? 45) Will Hermione's hair ever become "unbushy"? Will Harry's stay in place and not stick out? 46) Is Fudge a "Voldemortist", or just in denial of his return because he's a wimp? Is Bagman a "Voldemortist"? 47) What secrets do the Longbottoms hold, if any? What does Neville know? 48) Did the Weasley's ever know the Potters? 49) What do Mr. and Mrs. Weasley know? (I have an odd feeling they know a lot about something, but I don't know what it is, and they're not telling anyone.) 50) Will we meet Nicolas Flamel? Was the Philospher's/Sorceror's Stone really destroyed? Are there any more elixirs of life? 51) What happened during those 24 missing hours from Hagrid's rescue of Harry to Hagrid's dropping Harry off at the Dursleys? Did Flamel give Harry some elixir? Or did Hagrid take the long way on purpose as to not bump into anyone? 52) Was Harry's involvement to bring down V only part of a "prediction"? Are Hermione and Ron part of the prediction? Will the Trio bring down V? Will there be a Trio sacrifice? (Horrible to just think of it! I can imagine all the tissues around me in bed!) 53) Is V after Harry not because Harry maybe the one to destroy him, but someone else? Harry's future child? Is Harry fighting for someone less capable and Voldy doesn't know it? 54) Why is V after Harry? Why was he after the Potters? 55) What other obstacles besides V will Harry face? 56) What's so special about Harry? Heck, what's so special about Ron and Hermione? Do they have any super-magical/natural abilities? 57) Will the Dursleys' ever geting involved with magic? How? 58) Will V make some type of contact with Mr. and Mrs. Dursley? Will he tell them that he'll take Harry out of their hands if they help kill him? Are they that evil? 59) Was someone else at the Potters' home when V went to kill Harry? Who was it? 60) How did Lily and James meet? How did their love bloom?! ;) I have a feeling Harry will be asking this once he finds the right girl. 61) Can JKR write books on the MWPP years? Although, I hope she doesn't make Wormtail look anything but evil because we could not be able to see him with the loathe we see him with now. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Wow! Sorry I wrote so much! I had a few questions and I rambled on more than the original poster. Forgive me?! I do hope you found some of these questions thought-provoking, though. Greicy, who wonders if Lupin and James is just as hot as Sirius? I think Lupin is! ;) From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Apr 7 07:18:31 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 07:18:31 -0000 Subject: Command of the Phoenix? In-Reply-To: <1d1.6c663a1.2bc248c3@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54883 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, alexpie at a... wrote: > ... What if it is something demanded of Harry, and does not refer > to a group? The Order of the Phoenix could just as well mean the > demand or request of the phoenix. ..edited... > > Ba bboy_mn: I think it's a brilliant idea! I think most of us assumed the the Order of the Phoenix was Dumbledore's 'old crowd'. That the Order was an organization assembled to fight Voldemort. BUT someone pointed out recently that all the other book titles represent challenges that Harry had to face; finding the Sorcerer's Stone, the Chamber of Secrets, Prisoner of Azkaban, Goblet of Fire. In one form or another these are things that, in a sense, oppose Harry. If Order of the Phoenix represented Dumbledore's group, they would be allies, and that would break the pattern. So, your idea of being ordered by the Phoenix, or the command of the Phoenix, or if I want to keep going with other ways of saying it, the Challenge of the Phoenix fits perfectly with the previous titles. The challenge could still come from or because of an ally, but it would be a challenge none the less. It would still be something dark and dangerous that Harry had to face. Another suggestion by someone else, was that the Order of the Phoenix was the name of Voldemort's new group. In a sense, Voldemort rose from his own ashes, and he might want to carry the theme over into his new regime to re-enforce the fact that he has done more than anyone to conquer death. Another thought that I had, but it goes against the theme of the titles representing challenges that Harry has to face, is related to "The Order of the British Empire" which is an award or honor given by the British government to citizens who have served the country in some outstanding way. JKR was just awarded 'The Order of the British Empire'; talk about foreshadowing. http://www.vvaa.org.au/ord-be.htm But like I said, I don't see anyway to make that represent a challenge Harry has to face. bboy_mn From lupinesque at yahoo.com Mon Apr 7 07:59:36 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 07:59:36 -0000 Subject: Title research? WAS Chalice of Fire (was GoF Leaks) offlist In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54884 I wondered: > > Also, UUs know that that logo is called the flaming *chalice,* > but wouldn't you have to walk into a church and hear people > talking about it to discover that? You wouldn't know it just by > seeing it on a church sign. << Pippin responded: > Probably a market researcher made the discovery and informed > JKR. If you type "chalice" into Google, the first thing that pops up > is a link to "The History of the Flaming Chalice" at the Unitarian > Universalist Website www.uua.org/chalice.html Sorry, Pippin--you meant to send this offlist but I think it's quite relevant, and interesting. You're right; authors do check to see if their chosen titles (or something close) appear anywhere else. I tried "Doomspell" to see if its incidence somewhere else might be a reason behind JKR's dropping the title Harry Potter and the Doomspell Tournament. Having discovered that Doomspell is the name of a series kickoff by a Cliff McNish, I tried again: +doomspell -rowling - mcnish. The first non-HP, non-McNish item that cropped up was a He- Man comic: Masters of the Universe Adventure Magazine (UK, Issue #13, 1989). I wonder if that's what turned DT into GF? Amy Z From t.forch at mail.dk Mon Apr 7 08:06:04 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 10:06:04 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Pettigrew in Gryffindor? (was: Tom-Harry-Choices / Wand-Transformation / Questions / Wzdg) In-Reply-To: <20030407040431.99113.qmail@web13005.mail.yahoo.com> References: <1049625282.3902.96957.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030407092024.00cc37f0@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 54885 At 21:04 06-04-03 -0700, Christine Acker wrote: >Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe there is >any canon that says Pettigrew was in Gryffindor. I >certainly think he should have been (even if he >wasn't) sorted into Slytherin. > >To go even further, I don't think there is any canon >that Sirius and Lupin were in Gryffindor, either. I >actually read a fanfic somewhere in which Harry asks >Lupin about being in Gryffindor and Lupin replies, >"What made you think I was in Gryffindor?" > >I'd appreciate any insights on this. There is, if you want to be strict, nothing in canon about the house of either of the four 'marauders'. The closest you get is for James, where someone at an on-line chat asked: Q: What position did James play on the Gryffindor Quidditch team?? Was it seeker like Harry, or something different? A: James was Chaser. While it seems that Rowling implicitly confirms that James was a Gryffindor, this is a kind of 'have you stopped beating your wife' question, and the only way she can deal with it if she wants to avoid giving out any information is to remain silent about that part. Even questioning the house ('are you sure he was in Gryffindor?') might have been undesirable from Rowling's PoV. I fully believe that James Potter actually was in Gryffindor, and the above is part of what has convinced me, but it does not constitute actual proof. I am less certain about James' friends. Peter seems a very unlikely Gryffindor, while Sirius and Remes could both be either of the non-Slytherin houses. This has been the source of much debate, but as far as I am aware no real concensus has ever emerged anywhere ;-) The HPfGU FAQ site has some references to such discussions at http://www.hpfgu.ork.uk/faq Troels From finwitch at yahoo.com Mon Apr 7 03:56:31 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 03:56:31 -0000 Subject: Education before Hogwarts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54886 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Pessin" < > Trond Michelsen, in reference to pre-Hogwarts schooling, posted this > excerpt from a JKR interview: > > "Q: Do wizards and witches have to go Muggle school before they go to > Hogwarts? > > A: No, they don't have to." > Jonathan postulated: > This makes me wonder if there are any WIZARDING primary schools that > wizarding children must attend before Hogwarts. JKR never says kids > don't go to school, just that they don't attend MUGGLE schools. Well - she only said "they don't have to". They could be home- schooled, attend a wizarding low-level school... but they *could* go to muggle elementary - if their parents knew enough of Muggles to do so... Who knows, maybe wizards even have some schooling-forms we don't know of. Draco Malfoy probably had tutors, probably even some with Crabbe and Goyle... With Weasleys - supposedly Mom, Dad, big brothers, uncles, aunts cousins... All older than Ron, I presume, most out before he started... -- Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Mon Apr 7 04:37:57 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 04:37:57 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew in Gryffindor? In-Reply-To: <20030407040431.99113.qmail@web13005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54887 > > Christine: > > Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe there is > any canon that says Pettigrew was in Gryffindor. I > certainly think he should have been (even if he > wasn't) sorted into Slytherin. > > To go even further, I don't think there is any canon > that Sirius and Lupin were in Gryffindor, either. I > actually read a fanfic somewhere in which Harry asks > Lupin about being in Gryffindor and Lupin replies, > "What made you think I was in Gryffindor?" > > I'd appreciate any insights on this. First, Pettigrew is selfish, but he seeks survival, not greatness. Slytherins want publicity, praise in press - the little rat wants to hide. Then, PP's *way* out of Hufflepuff. Not just because of disloyalty, but because he's lazy. PP is the most non-Hufflepuff I can think of. Ravenclaw? Well, he did manage to frame his death, so he must have some wit, but... if he ever thought that "he would've killed me", or that he could gain anything from Ron after his betrayal was out... I think not. Gryffindor - PP is a *survivor*. Bravery is one thing required of that sort, I think. Many killed themselves in Azkaban before a week, but PP might last a hundred years... So yes, I think that PP was in Gryffindor. And no, I won't go with putting houses into ethical order though I do understand why "ambitious and willing to use any means" can produce greater amount of bad wizards than any other. But it *is* still a matter of choice. -- Finwitch From sciwill at yahoo.com Mon Apr 7 10:43:08 2003 From: sciwill at yahoo.com (sciwill) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 10:43:08 -0000 Subject: 50 Questions I would like answered in Books Five, Six, and Seven In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54888 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grace701" wrote: > 24) Will we see the following again: The Mirror of Erised? > Firenze? Bane? Ronan? Unicorns? The Ford Anglia? Lockhart? JK has said that Lockhart will not be in the future books. I don't know the exact interview, but it was most likely from the CBBC Newsround site that I read it. > 27) Will the Trio, or one of them, learn to Transform to an animal? JK has also said the Harry will not become an animagus like his father. That dose however leave the possibility open for Ron or Hermione > 34) Will Harry ever get to speak to his parents? See them again? "No magic can bring back the dead" is the quote from Dumbledore, But time travle is an option. For my two cents the answer is however no. > 35) Will Krum and/or Fleur come back? Fleur says she is staying at Eogwarts to improve her english. > 42) Did Ron and Hermione try to fight against the Imperius Curse > that Crouch!Moody was performing? If so, how did they do? It was at least cast on Ron, because he has the after effects from it after the class. we canm assume since Hermione didn't leave the class, as Mad Eye/Crouch suggested to her, that it was cast on her. Since the assinment was to try to fight it, it is likely they tried. Though in the case of Ron unsuccssfully. > 50) Will we meet Nicolas Flamel? Was the Philospher's/Sorceror's > Stone really destroyed? Are there any more elixirs of life? Dumbledore dosen't strick me as one who is often wrong, and he said Flamel will die. Also the elixir would be very dangerous to have around once it was confermed V was after it. My guess is that Dumbledore made sure it was all destroyed. My first post, hope it was useful and didn't violate any rules Jon From BEANNEBOY1 at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Apr 7 11:46:26 2003 From: BEANNEBOY1 at HOTMAIL.COM (beanneboy) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 11:46:26 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew in Gryffindor? (was: Tom-Harry-Choices / Wand-Transformation / Questions / Wzdg) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030407092024.00cc37f0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54889 Troels wrote > I fully believe that James Potter actually was in > Gryffindor, and the above is part of what has > convinced me, but it does not constitute actual > proof. > > I am less certain about James' friends. Peter seems > a very unlikely Gryffindor, while Sirius and Remes > could both be either of the non-Slytherin houses. > This has been the source of much debate, but as far > as I am aware no real concensus has ever emerged > anywhere ;-) now me: I personally feel that its very likely that they were all in the same house, whether that be Gryffindor or not. The reason I say that is because generally throught out the series thus far friendships are few and far between between the different houses, I am not saying there are not friends (becuase of the lessons with other houses). In POA they talked of James and Sirius as inseparable, (dont have quotes, sorry) so that would be very difficult if they were in different houses. I have nothing to say about the other two other than I think it unlikely they all became the great friends they did without being housed together. If anyone has anything I have missed let me know I have not got round to re-reading POA recently. lee (who is very much looking forward to seeing the new Gryffindor quidditch team) From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Mon Apr 7 14:13:55 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 10:13:55 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Title research? WAS Chalice of Fire (was GoF Leaks) offlist References: Message-ID: <00ea01c2fd0f$ee367bc0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54890 Amy Z wrote: > I tried "Doomspell" to see if its incidence somewhere else might be a > reason behind JKR's dropping the title Harry Potter and the Doomspell > Tournament. Having discovered that Doomspell is the name of a series > kickoff by a Cliff McNish, I tried again: +doomspell -rowling - > mcnish. The first non-HP, non-McNish item that cropped up was a He- > Man comic: Masters of the Universe Adventure Magazine (UK, Issue > #13, 1989). I wonder if that's what turned DT into GF? OMG! I find that just hillarious...i'm a big fan of He-Man...what a small world - it's funny to see how two totally different interests of mine are somehow related. I wonder why JKR released a title before researching it though...that just doesn't seem like an intelligent thing for authors to do. Does it happen often (title changing)? Do you think the former users of the word "Doomspell" contacted her after she released the title and said "no no"? ~Katy~ Live in the southeast USA? Join the new HP4GU-Southeast-US regional group! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP4GU-Southeast-US/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kkearney at students.miami.edu Mon Apr 7 16:33:42 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 16:33:42 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew in Gryffindor? (was: Tom-Harry-Choices / Wand-Transformation / Questions / Wzdg) In-Reply-To: <20030407040431.99113.qmail@web13005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54891 Christine wrote: > Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe there is > any canon that says Pettigrew was in Gryffindor. I > certainly think he should have been (even if he > wasn't) sorted into Slytherin. What makes you think he should have been in Slytherin, out of curiostity? To me, this actually seems the least likely of houses to fit his personality. Slytherin favors those who are extremely ambitious, willing to use any means to get ahead. Pettigrew, however, has always remained in others' shadows- first his friends James, Sirius, and Lupin, and later Voldemort. He's despertate for recognition, but not really the epitome of ambition. So where does he fit? Not Ravenclaw; he's had his moments of brilliance, but is overall not the most intelligent man. It was stated that he had much more trouble with the Animagus transformation than the other two. Also, I believe McGonagal made a statement that he wasn't too bright, although I amy be mistaken. Hufflepuff? No, his loyalty is certainly not constant. Although we really don't know what made him turn traitor, so he may have felt justified in switching his loyalty. Doubtful, though. Back to Gryffindor then. He hasn't appeared very brave in the few scenes we've seen him, but this is downtrodden-by-Voldemort, spent-the-last-13-years-as-a-rat Pettigrew. Perhaps when he arrived at Hogwarts he still had the potential to be courageous. He did have the courage to join James and Sirius in becoming Animagi, a dangerous undertaking. And he was involved in the fight against Voldemort originally, which makes me think he had some speck of bravery in him. So, overall, Gryffindor doesn't seem like such a terrible match, when taken against the other choices. -Corinth From SaalsG at cni-usa.com Mon Apr 7 16:56:38 2003 From: SaalsG at cni-usa.com (Grace Saalsaa) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 11:56:38 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pettigrew in Gryffindor? (was: Tom-Harry-Choices / Wand-Transformation / Questions / Wzdg) References: Message-ID: <013901c2fd26$a8846a30$8d4053d1@DJF30D11> No: HPFGUIDX 54892 Corinth wrote: What makes you think he should have been in Slytherin, out of curiostity? To me, this actually seems the least likely of houses to fit his personality. Slytherin favors those who are extremely ambitious, willing to use any means to get ahead. Pettigrew, however, has always remained in others' shadows- first his friends James, Sirius, and Lupin, and later Voldemort. He's despertate for recognition, but not really the epitome of ambition. now me: I think Pettigrew is very obviously a Slytherin. Remaining in the shadows of others doesn't mean that he isn't ambitious. He is. He just uses others to achieve his own goals. I think you may be viewing Pettigrew's ambition as being toward something material. But in the majority of the story, Pettigrew's amibition is to stay alive, and for that he is quite ambitious. Is the epitome a material thing - or is the epitome life itself? And what is it that Voldemort has promised to the Death Eaters that draws Pettigrew. That, we don't know yet but it might be epitome that Pettigrew thinks he needs and causes him to betray and use those who have helped him or have called him "friend." He uses the Weasley family to hide and feed him, he uses them to gather information (from Arthur who seems to talk about his work when he gets home), he uses Ron to protect him, he hides out in Hagrid's hut when things gets too difficult with Crookshanks. There are probably more instances where he uses people. In the Shrieking Shack, look how he goes about begging for his life, trying to find another possible way to use someone in order to spare himself. He's a mean little Slytherin as far as I can tell. Grace From sam2sar at charter.net Mon Apr 7 17:07:33 2003 From: sam2sar at charter.net (sam2sar) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 17:07:33 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew in Gryffindor? (was: Tom-Harry-Choices / Wand-Transformation / Questions / Wzdg) In-Reply-To: <013901c2fd26$a8846a30$8d4053d1@DJF30D11> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54893 > Grace wrote: > I think Pettigrew is very obviously a Slytherin. Remaining in the shadows of > others doesn't mean that he isn't ambitious. > He is. He just uses others to achieve his own goals. I think you may be > viewing Pettigrew's ambition as being toward something material. But in the > majority of the story, Pettigrew's amibition is to stay alive, and for that > he is quite ambitious. Is the epitome a material thing - or is the epitome > life itself? And what is it that Voldemort has promised to the Death Eaters > that draws Pettigrew. That, we don't know yet but it might be epitome that > Pettigrew thinks he needs and causes him to betray and use those who have > helped him or have called him "friend." > I do not think that Peter voluntarely became a DE. I think he was persured by Voldemort because he was the weakest link in the Potter chain. He was most likely promised a lot or even just his life and he reluctantly became a DE because he was not as strong as the others. I do not think he would have betrayed the trust put into him otherwise. Sam I Am From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Mon Apr 7 15:06:22 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 11:06:22 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: 50 Questions I would like answered in Books Five, Six, and Seven References: Message-ID: <004701c2fd17$4276c3f0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54894 Jon said: > Fleur says she is staying at Eogwarts to improve her english. When does she say that? I don't remember that at all. Greicy said: > 1) Did Hermione every visit Krum? Did/Does she really like him? My impression is that she was flattered that he liked her so much, but that she never really liked him back. He had to keep fighting for her attention because she was focused elsewhere (usually on what was happening with Harry). And i doubt that she went to visit him, knowing how jealous Ron would be. But i guess we'll find out for sure in the next book :) > 61) Can JKR write books on the MWPP years? Although, I hope she > doesn't make Wormtail look anything but evil because we could not be > able to see him with the loathe we see him with now. I think i read in an interview that after book #7 she was planning on "abandoning" HP and writing something completely unrelated. Am i correct on that? It saddens me really...there's so much more that she could do with it. But i guess every series has to end sometime. And maybe she'll surprise us many years down the road with a new chapter in Harry's life :) Vinnia wrote: > 4. If one day, the Dursleys need Harry's help, will he > turn them down? If Harry would help Pettigrew, the man responsible for V being able to kill his parents, he would most certainly help the Dursleys if they ever needed it. In fact, i think that that situation probably will come to pass at some point - it would make the Dursleys finally see Harry as more than a "freak" and accept his magical abilities. I'd hate for them to go the rest of their lives hating each other. > 9. why does Sirius wait 12 years before breaking out > of Azkaban? Why did he not do it while he was > stronger? Is he not as innocent as we think he is? I think this proves just how innocent he is. He didn't have it in his head to disobey the law and break out. He only did so because he saw that Pettigrew was now at Hogwarts and he knew that Harry was in danger. He would go to any extreme to save Harry. Apart from truly caring for the boy, helping Harry would also help relieve his guilt for making Pettigrew the secret keeper. ~Katy~ Live in the southeast USA? Join the new HP4GU-Southeast-US regional group! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP4GU-Southeast-US/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From michele_hahn at ept.lu Mon Apr 7 15:35:12 2003 From: michele_hahn at ept.lu (=?iso-8859-1?q?Michele=20Hahn?=) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 16:35:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: Voldemort's wand Message-ID: <20030407153512.11687.qmail@web20710.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54895 Jennifer asks : >We *do* hear screaming, presumably from the Cruciatus curse, several times >during the Priori Incantatem. What spells are you finding missing? Moepi's suggestion : As I read all the questions about Voldemort's wand, I thought I might have found the missing spell, but I don't have GOF with me , so please correct me if I'm wrong. Between Betha Jorkins and Lilly Potter there is one spell missing ! It is the Avada Kedavra curse that backfired, the one that gave Harry his scar and brought Voldemort down ! If this was true this leads me to the following questions : 1. Does Priori Incantatem only show spells which worked properly ? 2. If Priori Incantatem shows every spell, which wand gave Harry his scar ? Was Mr Olliwander wrong about Harry's wand ? Ewen if I'm wrong, can anyone respond to this question: 3. How is it possible that Pettigrew's hand returns to Voldemort's wand, but doesn't take away Harry's scar and restore Voldemort's powers ? Moepi from Luxembourg (really no Quidditch joke ;-) ), new on the list and happy to join in. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Mon Apr 7 16:08:21 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 16:08:21 -0000 Subject: Posted 50 questions in files. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54896 I collected the all the questions (not just the 50) and posted them in files section as a way of saving them for when book 5 comes out. "Serena" From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Apr 7 18:07:30 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 18:07:30 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's wand In-Reply-To: <20030407153512.11687.qmail@web20710.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54897 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Michele Hahn wrote: > > 1. Does Priori Incantatem only show spells which worked properly ? bboy_mn: The form of certain spells is very clear. For example, the casting of the Dark Mark, would logically produce the same symbol during Priot Incantatum; also, the 'ghost' form the AK, and the screams from the Cruicatus. But what form would you expect to see from an Imperious curse? Can't imagine what that could be, although I'm sure a trained experienced wizard like an Auror would have some method of determining the last spell even if the didn't present a clear visual clue. We can pick other examples; what would the returned image to the Jelly Legs curse be? The point is that spell could come back during Prior Incantatum that gave some clue to which spell it was, but at the same time don't give a clearly defined visual image. As far as the failed AK by Voldemort against Harry, what would you expect to see? No one died from the death curse so you wouldn't see anyones image. Given that this was the first time in known history that a death curse had ever failed, the result from Prior Incantatum would be impossible to predict. > 2. If Priori Incantatem shows every spell, which wand gave Harry his scar ? Was Mr Olliwander wrong about Harry's wand ? > bboy_mn: See the note above. I is possible that spell returned from the wand, but did so without presenting a recognizable image. > Ewen if I'm wrong, can anyone respond to this question: > > 3. How is it possible that Pettigrew's hand returns to Voldemort's wand, but doesn't take away Harry's scar and restore Voldemort's powers ? > > Moepi from Luxembourg bboy_mn: Not sure what you are referring when you mention Peter's hand. Peter's old original human hand did not appear from the wand during Prior Incantatum, it was the spell that VOldemort cast to create Peter's new silver hand that re-appeared from the wand. Or at least, that's how I saw it. As far as why it doesn't take away Harry's scar, this reverse spell effect doesn't 'reverse' any spells, that is, it doesn't undo them, it simple presents them in reverse order. Just a thought. bboy_mn From urbana at charter.net Mon Apr 7 18:19:30 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 18:19:30 -0000 Subject: 50 Questions I would like answered in Books Five, Six, and Seven In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54898 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grace701" wrote: > 14) Will parents believe Dumbledore and take his side? Who else will > be on Dumbledore's side? Who will be on V's? AnneU: We know that the Malfoys, Crabbes and Goyles are on V's side because the adult males are all DE's. It will be interesting to see how many families of Slytherin students (Millicent Bulstrode, Pansy Parkinson, Blaise Zabini etc.) side with Dumbledore, if any. > > 15) Who are these "sources" that Dumbledore uses to find out V's > whereabouts? AnneU: Probably his MAGIC DISHWASHER service people :-) > 17) Who will fall in love with whom? ;) AnneU: Not going there, nuh uh, but y'all know how I ship anyway :-) > 20) Will we ever read the book in another character's perspective? I don't think so. After all, that's what fan fiction is for, n'est-ce pas? :-) I also don't think we'll ever see 3rd person omniscient either from JKR. > > 21) Will Harry go somewhere else besides Hogsmeade and the Weasley's? Anne U: I hope not to Azkaban, but we won't know until June 21st. > 23) What is Hermione's deepest desire? Anne U: You mean, besides becoming a prefect and then head girl?? Just kidding, I know she's not Percy Jr. 25) Will the Weasley Twins create their own shop? Anne U: Well, Harry gave them all of his TWC "winnings" - can we assume the MOM won't impose a tax on them? Let's just assume that and figure they spend 30 galleons on some really nice new dress robes for Ron. That leaves them with $970 galleons which won't enable to them to open a store right away (IMO) but would give them plenty of money to invent new joke items. > 30) Will Rita keep the pact she "made" with Hermione? Will she give > anything away? Anne U: Never trust a reporter scorned. I bet Rita will give away someething big and possibly serious (possibly Sirius?). > 45) Will Hermione's hair ever become "unbushy"? Will Harry's stay in place and not stick out? Anne U: Only if they both learn how to "charm" their hair into submission. Personally, as a curly-top myself, I think Hermione needs to go with the flow and accept that her hair is "bushy" because it's naturally curly :-) So, if she wants it to stop being bushy she should go to Muggle London during summer holidays and get her hair cut in a really cute, curly hairstyle ;-) I find Harry's unruly hair quite adorable, myself. But I think it's also a plot device... it's yet another thing he feels like he has no control over... > 61) Can JKR write books on the MWPP years ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Anne U: OF course she CAN write them (she made up the backstory!) but whether she will... who knows... even if she doesn't write any MWPP fiction, we'll always have fan fiction :-) Anne U (who really needs to pre-order OoP because I haven't done it yet. AAACK!!) From debmclain at yahoo.com Tue Apr 8 00:48:35 2003 From: debmclain at yahoo.com (Debbie) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 00:48:35 -0000 Subject: Was:Re: 50 Questions I would like answered/Fleur & English In-Reply-To: <004701c2fd17$4276c3f0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54899 Jon said: > > Fleur says she is staying at Eogwarts to improve her english. "Katy Cartee" wrote: > When does she say that? I don't remember that at all. Me: GoF, p. 724 US "We will see each uzzer again, I 'ope," said Fleur..."I am 'oping to get a job 'ere, to improve my Eenglish." Of course, does she specificially mean Hogwarts? I always assumed that, but maybe she meant the U.K. -Debbie who is a member of Katy's HP4GU-Southeast-US regional group! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP4GU-Southeast-US/ From kristen at sanderson-web.com Tue Apr 8 00:37:12 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (GKJPO) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 00:37:12 -0000 Subject: Professor Trelawney's "experience" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54900 As I continue through my gagillionth read of GoF, I ran across this curious passage (Ch 29 The Dream, p 577 US): "You were clutching your scar!" said Professor Trelawney. "you were rolling on the floor, clutching your scar! Come now, Potter, I have experience in these matters!" Ok, this leads me to the question... what experience? How does Trelawney have experience in curse scars? If she had said that he was "seeing" and she had experience in that, I would understand, but she is suggesting that she has special knowledge with respect to curse scars. I am interested to hear how others interpret this. This is followed by the following: "My dear, you were undoubtedly stimulated by the extraordinary clairvoyant vibrations of my room!" said Professor Trelawney. "If you leave now, you may lose the opportunity to see further than you have ever--" This paragraph seems to be some major foreshadowing to me. Apparently, in her classroom, Harry would have the opportunity to explore the hidden powers of his curse scar. Could Trelawney's classroom open up some big doors for Harry to fight LV? I think so (plus I think this is the only reason for Harry to remain in Divination - so that something like this could happen). Another thing I would point out is that Harry usually seems to have his dreams in her classroom that is hot, stuffy and the air is scented...like, say, a flower bed in the middle of July. Could the flowerbed Harry is lying in in the beginning of Book 5 stimulate the same response as Trelawney's classroom? I apologize if this has been discussed before. I haven't noticed it. Kristen From grace701 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 8 01:45:22 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 01:45:22 -0000 Subject: Posted 50 questions in files. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54901 Serena Moonsilver wrote: > I collected the all the questions (not just the 50) and posted them > in files section as a way of saving them for when book 5 comes out. > > "Serena" That's great! So now we'll be able to go back and see if any of our questions were answered. I was actually thinking we should get them all together and send it to JK herself. ;) Maybe there are some questions she would actually be able to answer. I doubt it, but I like to hope. =) Greicy From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Apr 8 02:10:02 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 02:10:02 -0000 Subject: FILK: The Voldemort Rag Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54902 The Voldemort Rag A filk by Pippin to the Tune of "The Vatican Rag" by Tom Lehrer Hear the original at http://wiw.org/~drz/tom.lehrer/midi/vatican.mid First you get down on your knees Shiver like you're gonna freeze Bow your heads, each one of them And kiss the hem, kiss the hem, kiss the hem Muggles, Mudbloods are in danger We've got Potter, we'll get Granger Everybody at 'em Finite Incantatem Doin' the Voldemort Rag Members of my inner circle will Get the chance to torture, maim and kill We're the gang that's incorrigible With the curse that's unforgivable Law Enforcement cannot catch us We'll be gone before they snatch us Two, four, six, eight We can all Disapparate So get down upon your knees Swear eternal loyalties Crawl to me and kiss my hem Yeah! S&M, S&M, S&M Grab a mask and put it on if You're an evil wizard goniff Avada Kedavra Gee, it's great to have ya Goin' ballistic an' Gettin' sadistic an' Doin' the Voldemort Rag! From david_p at istop.com Tue Apr 8 02:35:09 2003 From: david_p at istop.com (David Paterson) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 02:35:09 -0000 Subject: FILK: Wizard School Dropout Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54903 Well, Grease is a show (and movie) about teenagers at school; it seems only logical to move the setting from Rydell High to Hogwarts. I began work on this filk; it was dramatically improved by Nicky, currently Down Under. Wizard School Dropout A filk to the tune of "Beauty School Dropout" from Grease The Scene: the hut on the rock. Harry has just met Hagrid, and Hagrid has apologetically admitted that he was expelled from Hogwarts. A young man wearing a broad smile suddenly appears, and begins singing ( you should be able to figure out who the singer is ) Your story sad to tell A wizard ne'er do well Most mixed-up monster breeder in third year Your future's so unclear now What's left of your career now Your pets are horrid creatures that we fear Wizard School Dropout No Graduation Day for you Wizard School Dropout You're done with Charms and Potions too You opened up the chamber and your pet killed Moaning Myrtle This never would have happened if you'd got yourself a turtle Hagrid you've blown it (Hagrid you've blown it) Soon you'll be off to Azkaban But we should have known it (we should have known it) `Cause you're half giant and half man If you didn't breed such monsters we would have no trouble here Forget your stupid pets and drink a butterbeer Wizard school dropout, you'll end up keeper of the keys, Wizard school dropout, what a waste of tuition fees. Well they couldn't help you pass your O.W.L.S. You let down all your teachers, But what else could happen when you play with dark and deadly creatures? Hagrid, just shut it. Don't bother making an excuse. You'd never cut it; Your magic wouldn't be much use Now your wand is snapped, The trial's wrapped, You've done the worst you can; Pack up your monster-box and head to Azkaban. Hagrid it's over. There's nothing Dumbledore can do. No, and moreover You've heard it straight from You-Know-Who Now I've cast my spell So what the hell You've heard enough from me Gotta be goin' to enchant a diary (Somehow, Harry forgets the whole thing, which ends up causing untold grief and hardship a year later, once the Chamber of Secrets is opened) David From jmholmes at breckcomm.com Tue Apr 8 02:05:04 2003 From: jmholmes at breckcomm.com (slytherincess) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 02:05:04 -0000 Subject: Draco Malfoy FAQ or *THE* Post Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54904 I've just spent an hour perusing old messages and I searched the files and database section for a Draco FAQ without luck. Was the Draco FAQ ever uploaded? I'd sure appreciate a Point Me if anyone knows where it is. Also, there's been mention of a well-constructed post or essay on why Draco is smart/funny/etc by- I believe - a member of this list, but I'm not recalling that person's name. Again, any direction would be helpful. Thanks in advance for any replies. ~Julie From goalieracer at yahoo.com Tue Apr 8 02:48:46 2003 From: goalieracer at yahoo.com (goalieracer) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 02:48:46 -0000 Subject: Education before Hogwarts? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030406003836.00c9d560@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54905 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Troels Forchhammer wrote: > At 14:30 05-04-03 -0600, shanna wrote: > >Hello everyone. > >I'm new to the group, but I have a quick question. Does anyone have > >thoughts about how wizard children get educated prior to attending Hogwarts? > I assume that the children are schooled at home. > > Troels Not necessarily.Not all parents or siblings are qualified to teach their children the basic skills. Not all families could afford to hire a private tutor( ie the Weasleys). There would have to be some type of elementary school for witches and wizards. They would have to have the mastery of all the basic skills before they could attend Hogwarts. I don't know about Great Britain or other countries,but in the USA all children are required to go to school up to a certain age or be taught by a qualified person. The Wizarding community would not have an exempion to this..as they are still living in the Muggle world. They would have to have proof that the children are being educated properly. I am a newbie to this group and have really enjoyed the thoughtful posts to this group. Barb From briony_coote at hotmail.com Tue Apr 8 02:59:24 2003 From: briony_coote at hotmail.com (Briony Coote) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 14:59:24 +1200 Subject: Another puzzle about Voldemort's wand Message-ID: <000501c2fd7a$dc521700$41a9a7cb@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 54906 Dear All, Something is bothering me about the Priori Incantatem that was performed on Voldemort's wand in GoF. What happened to the spell that backfired and gave Harry his scar? That spell was not regurgitated with the others, so what happened to it? Briony Coote [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From briony_coote at hotmail.com Tue Apr 8 03:35:52 2003 From: briony_coote at hotmail.com (Briony Coote) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 15:35:52 +1200 Subject: Queries about Sirius's escape (slight FF) Message-ID: <000001c2fd7f$f4ac4640$1d92fea9@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 54907 I find it stretching coincidence a bit far that Fudge would happen to give Sirius that newspaper, which just happens to have that picture of Pettigrew. Is there a possibility that someone arranged the whole thing? As for Vinnia Chrysshallie's query as to why Sirius should sit around in Azkaban for 12 years before escaping, this has come up before and can be found in the FAQ section. Sirius himself said "I was weak.very weak", but when he saw that picture of Pettigrew, "my mind cleared.it gave me strength." But this doesn't explain why he didn't escape right from the start. Sirius blames himself for Lily and James' deaths because he persuaded them to switch to Pettigrew. It could be that he stayed in Azkaban to punish himself for what happened. Or he could have undergone something particularly nasty in Azkaban that weakened him. This could be an illness, extra-special torture, or, as in several fanfics I've read, attempted suicide. We just don't know enough about Sirius's arrest, lack of a trial, or imprisonment to be certain. Hopefully OOTP will fill us in with more details. Briony [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tigerfan41 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 7 18:27:49 2003 From: tigerfan41 at yahoo.com (Darrell Harris) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 11:27:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Snape and DADA In-Reply-To: <1049320389.2715.14156.m14@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030407182749.64108.qmail@web10003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54908 Re: Snape and DADA This statement was made. "It is common knowledge that Snape wants the defence against the dark arts job. The position has been open no less than 3 times, and soon to be 4. Snape is obviously capable to take the class, due to comments made throughout the book about the in depth knowledge he has in the subject (and well he was a D.E.)" I've seen no remark by Snape that he wants the job. In PS/SS Percy sy's this to the gang and they run with it. I've only seen Snape remark as to his capacity as the potions master, which he seems to jealously guard. "Darrell" __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com From grosich at nyc.rr.com Tue Apr 8 04:07:49 2003 From: grosich at nyc.rr.com (Gina R Rosich) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 00:07:49 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Education before Hogwarts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54909 On 4/7/03 10:48 PM, "goalieracer" had this to say: > > > The Wizarding community would not have an exempion to this..as they > are still living in the Muggle world. They would have to have proof > that the children are being educated properly. > > > ME: > > Welcome, Barb. Early education is a very interesting quandry. But I don?t > agree with the above statement. I think there are plenty of children in the > wizarding world who may never get into the radar of the muggles. For example, > Mrs. Weasley said she didn?t think the postman would even know how to get to > the Burrow. I doubt any muggle has ever seen their house. If she had a > wizarding midwife, and delivered all her children at home, muggles need never > know of the Weasley children?s existence. Further, I can?t ever imagine > Lucius Malfoy ?lowering? himself to live by any muggle laws. For sure he > must?ve hired a private tutor for Draco. Finally, children talk about things > without thinking. Could you even imagine Ron trying to have a conversation > with a muggle child about the Chudley Cannons or chocolate frogs? Or trying > to remember NOT to have those conversations with muggle children? LOL. > > Gina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kkearney at students.miami.edu Tue Apr 8 04:40:49 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 04:40:49 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew in Gryffindor? (was: Tom-Harry-Choices / Wand-Transformation / Qu In-Reply-To: <013901c2fd26$a8846a30$8d4053d1@DJF30D11> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54910 I wrote: >> What makes you think he should have been in Slytherin, out of >> curiostity? To me, this actually seems the least likely of houses to >> fit his personality. Slytherin favors those who are extremely >> ambitious, willing to use any means to get ahead. Pettigrew, however, >> has always remained in others' shadows- first his friends James, >> Sirius, and Lupin, and later Voldemort. He's despertate for >> recognition, but not really the epitome of ambition. And Grace wrote: > I think Pettigrew is very obviously a Slytherin. Remaining in the shadows of > others doesn't mean that he isn't ambitious. > He is. He just uses others to achieve his own goals. I disagree wholeheartedly. :) I'll counter one bit at a time. > I think you may be > viewing Pettigrew's ambition as being toward something material. But in the > majority of the story, Pettigrew's amibition is to stay alive, and for that > he is quite ambitious. No, I don't consider ambition to be a desire for material items. Ambition is generally defined as a strong desire for something, anything, but I usually associate it with a strong desire for success and power. Pettigrew has never demonstrated any strong desire for either. He seems to be desperately attempting to keep his head above water in the mess he's found himself, trying not to be killed by those he has betrayed or by the madman he now serves); nothing more, nothing less. > And what is it that Voldemort has promised to the Death Eaters > that draws Pettigrew. That, we don't know yet but it might be epitome that > Pettigrew thinks he needs and causes him to betray and use those who have > helped him or have called him "friend." We don't know that Voldemort promised anything to the Death Eaters or Pettigrew. I personally believe, as Sam mentioned, that Voldemort discovered Peter to be the weakest and most gullible of those working for Dumbledore. Pettigrew has shown himself to be a coward, trembling and whining before Lupin and Sirius, and begging Harry, Ron, and Hermione for his life. I think if Voldemort approached Pettigrew and gave him a choice between becoming his spy and dying, Pettigrew would have had no trouble making the decision. I think he demonstrated throughout GoF that he doesn't enjoy being on Voldemort's side, and doesn't expect much in the way of reward. > He uses the Weasley family to hide and feed him, he uses them to gather > information (from Arthur who seems to talk about his work when he gets > home), We don't know that he actively sought a family with ties to the MoM. He discovered a few bits of information purely by accident while hiding from the world. A truly ambitious individual would have stayed in rat form a year or two at the most, while waiting for danger to pass. After all, he was now in an extremely advantageous position. He later showed he could find Voldemort in less than a year. He was in the perfect position to bargain for a share of Voldemort's power, but instead opted to play the part of the terrified, cowering servant once more. > he uses Ron to protect him, he hides out in Hagrid's hut when things > gets too difficult with Crookshanks. Read, runs and hides. > In the Shrieking Shack, look how he goes about > begging for his life, trying to find another possible way to use someone in > order to spare himself. Yes, just look. Not an act, in my opinion. He wasn't cunningly trying to manipulate everyone, he was simply begging for his life. > He's a mean little Slytherin as far as I can tell. He's a whiny, spineless, coward. And I think he needs to be that way to make the story believable. We have enough bad guys filling the intelligent-evil-madman position. Pettigrew fills the possibly-good-deep-down-but-too-scared-to-stand-up-for-his-beliefs position. Pettigrew isn't inherently evil, but he chose what is easy over what is right. -Corinth From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Apr 8 05:45:38 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 05:45:38 -0000 Subject: Professor Trelawney's "experience" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54911 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "GKJPO" wrote: > As I continue through my gagillionth read of GoF, I ran across this > curious passage (Ch 29 The Dream, p 577 US): > > "You were clutching your scar!" said Professor Trelawney. "... > Come now, Potter, I have experience in these matters!" > > Ok, this leads me to the question... what experience? How does > Trelawney have experience in curse scars? ...edited... > > This is followed by the following: > > "My dear, you were undoubtedly stimulated by the extraordinary > clairvoyant vibrations of my room!" said Professor Trelawney. ...edited... > > ...edited... > > I apologize if this has been discussed before. I haven't noticed it. > Kristen bboy_mn: Your answer lies two paragraphs above the one you quoted. "Are you alright?" he (Ron) said. "Of course he isn't!" said Professor Trelawney, looking thoroughly excited. Her great eyes loomed over Harry, gazing at him. "What was it, Potter? A premonition? An apparition? What did you see?" Premonitions, apparitions, and 'seeing' are the things Trelawney has experience in. She seems to understand that there is more going on here than a headache, and she is just dying to get Harry to talk about it. Just a thought. bboy_mn From oppen at mycns.net Tue Apr 8 06:12:42 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 01:12:42 -0500 Subject: Boobytrapping Lord V Message-ID: <017c01c2fd95$de157da0$d4510043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 54912 I was just rereading the last part of PS/SS, and an evil idea occured to me. We know that Lord V. is after immortality. Hence, he wants the Sorcerer's/Philosopher's Stone---or at least the elixir one can make with it. What if it was kept secret that the Stone had been destroyed, and a deliberately-flawed substitute was substituted for it? One that _looked_ a lot like the real Stone, and even passed some of the tests, but had something Deeply Wrong with it---something that ensured that the Elixir of Life made with it wasn't really the real thing? I'd bet that Nicholas Flamel _did_ keep his research notes around; I would, had I been him. Going through those and finding some of the last "nearly made it, but not quite" versions, and re-creating one of those, or even several, would be an obvious sneaky move. Then, "hide" it somewhere that Lord V can get at it, and ensure the word gets out. "Now, not a word about this, Gilderoy! This is really, really important!" So, Lord V comes after the "Stone," and is either captured, or isn't. If he is captured, well, hello, snogging-session-with-Dementors. If not, he's got a false Stone that doesn't really make Elixir of Life, and at worst, the good guys are no worse off than before. At best, the "Elixir" the false Stone makes has things so wrong with it that death starts looking really attractive to Lord V. Matter o'fact---having about four or five flawed "Stones" hidden in different places might also be a way to smoke out the DE moles or blabbermouths in the MoM---tell everybody you suspect is Wrong about _one_ real Stone, but give each of them a separate fake hiding place as its location, and see which ones Lord V tries for. When he goes for, say, Hiding Place A, which only a few people know about, you know that one of those few people is not to be trusted. --Eric, who reads too much real-life espionage stories for his own good. From oppen at mycns.net Tue Apr 8 06:40:36 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 01:40:36 -0500 Subject: FILK: One Small Child Message-ID: <018b01c2fd99$c3e84d00$d4510043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 54913 A song from the time right after Voldemort made that fateful visit to Godric's Hollow: Permission to archive granted, as long as I am credited as the author. ---------- One Small Child (ttto One Tin Soldier) Listen, Aurors, to my story Heed you well this stirring tale Of the Dark Lord, in his glory Who thought he would never fail Now the Dark Lord in his power Possessed magicks dark and grim Until in a fated hour A baby in a cot foiled him! Chorus: The Dark Lord wanted to lead us, Rule us with a rod of might, We would never let him bleed us, Though it seemed a hopeless fight, But the Dark Lord was defeated, How it was, no one can say, Sitting blinking in the ruins, Harry Potter saved the day! When the Dark Lord came from nowhere, Wielding powers quite arcane, Many wizards joined with him there, To help him achieve his reign, Curses that should not be written Slaughtered those who would not yield And our peaceful Wizard Britain Turned into a battlefield. (Chorus) Barty Crouch soon rose to power Fighting on the side of good, Strong as any stone-built tower, Doing things none thought he could! Gave the Aurors legal freedom To use curses none may use Swore they'd very seldom need 'em Swore they'd not stoop to abuse. (Chorus) The Dark Lord hit Godric's Hollow, On a fateful autumn night, His "Trick-or-Treat" death would follow, He was spreading evil's blight. He killed James and Lily Potter, Then he tried to kill their boy, But the spell he used to slaughter Reflected, did not destroy! (Chorus) Now all magic folk be joyous, The Dark Mark no more we'll see No more evil will destroy us, Of our fears at last we're free! Raise a glass to Harry Potter, Whom the Dark Lord could not slay, Butterbeer, beer, wine or water, Drink to "Harry Potter Day!" (Chorus) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Apr 8 06:46:10 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 06:46:10 -0000 Subject: Queries about Sirius's escape (slight FF) In-Reply-To: <000001c2fd7f$f4ac4640$1d92fea9@oemcomputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54914 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Briony Coote" wrote: > ...edited... > It could be that he stayed in Azkaban to punish himself for what > happened. Or he could have undergone something particularly nasty > in Azkaban that weakened him. This could be an illness, > extra-special torture, or, as in several fanfics I've read, > attempted suicide. We just don't know enough about Sirius's > arrest, lack of a trial, or imprisonment to be certain. Hopefully > OOTP will fill us in with more details. > > Briony bboy_mn: Or he may have been lock in a prison from which no prisoner in many many centuries had ever been able to escape. Let's try to remember that this is a prison not the Hilton, you don't just decide to leave. The Dementors have a massively disabling effect on people. After a few months around them, prisoners are so hopelessly lock in dispare that they are unable to even plot much less attempt an escape. Most of them spend what cognitive energy and ablity they have praying for death to come an take them away from the hopeless misery. Compound this with the prison being a small island in the middle of a very very cold sea, and most prisoners don't see many possible escape routes. Harry says in the book that Sirius isn't affected by the Dementors but that is not true. Just like every one else, the Dementor have a very disabling effect on Sirius. But Sirius has a few aces in the hole, so to speak, things he probably wasn't even aware of at first. In fact, these aces or advantages he had, he may not have been aware of at all, and only saw them after the fact once he was away from the influence of the Dementors and had time to reflect on what happened to him. First, he was innocent that one thought helped him keep some grip on his sanity, it gave him some strength to endure the misery, and hold some small desparate hope for the future. Hope for the future is the one thing that none of the other prisoners had to sustain them. Next, when he saw the paper and realized that Peter was alive and in a position to threaten Harry, I can see how this would give him a new determination. Since it was negative, the Dementors couldn't take it away from him, that allowed Sirius to think about it and analyse it. When he realized that he had indirectly caused the death of his two closest friends, James and Lily, and now he was again failing them by not protecting his Godson Harry, I think he was suddenly filled with a fierce determination. A fierce rage filled murderous determination that, as a negative thought, was again something the Dementors couldn't steal from him. It is very likely, since it was a negative thought, that the Dementor inadverently re-enforce Sirius's determination, they may have given him strength rather than weaking him. The next ace, another asset that help him keep a hold of his 'self' was his ability to turn into his animagus form. A bit of magic that fortunately doesn't require a wand. I have to wonder how long he was in the prison before he discovered that turning into his animagus form could give him some relief from the Dementors? So here he is in the maximum of maximum security prisons filled with a growing fierce reckless determination, the odds of escaping are as close to zero as you can get, but he can't live with the thought of letting the Potters down again. I suspect that it is likely that the Demenors misinterpreting Sirius animagus form as Sirius losing his mind, let their guard down, and in a moment of confusion, Sirius was able to slip past them. By the time they realized what had happened Sirius was in the water swimming for shore. The ocean is mighty big, and even if the blind dementors searched the ocean, the would have had a hard time spotting a dog among the fish and ocean mammals. The likelihood that a dog, especially a weak dog could swim across miles of cold ocean is pretty slim, extremely slim, but the odds that a human could make the swim are less than zero. So once again, being an animagus works in Sirius favor. Even as a dog, he shouldn't have been able to swim that far, but the boiling desire to catch the true betrayer of the Potters and to protect Harry was enough to give him the strength to do the impossible. Things like this do happen in real life, people overcome impossible odds fueled by nothing but a fierce determination to survive. My point is that any speculation that Sirius could have escaped anytime he wanted is misguided. When he did finally attempt to escape, it was an escape plan that was certainly doomed to failure, and he knew this from the start. It's by nothing more than dumb luck, fierce determination, and a few personal characteristics that gave him an unforseen advantage while at the same time creating an element of confusion amoung the Dementors that he was able to pull it off. Just some thoughts. bboy_mn From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue Apr 8 06:44:57 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 06:44:57 -0000 Subject: Queries about Sirius's escape (slight FF) In-Reply-To: <000001c2fd7f$f4ac4640$1d92fea9@oemcomputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54915 Briony: > I find it stretching coincidence a bit far that Fudge would happen to > give Sirius that newspaper, which just happens to have that picture of > Pettigrew. Is there a possibility that someone arranged the whole > thing? >... why he didn't escape right from the > start. Sirius blames himself for Lily and James' deaths because he > persuaded them to switch to Pettigrew. It could be that he stayed in > Azkaban to punish himself for what happened. Or he could have undergone > something particularly nasty in Azkaban that weakened him. This could be > an illness, extra-special torture, or, as in several fanfics I've read, > attempted suicide. We just don't know enough about Sirius's arrest, > lack of a trial, or imprisonment to be certain. Hopefully OOTP will > fill us in with more details. Well, at least JKR did ;-) And as unlikely as it may seem to us, these little co-incidents *do* happen occasionally. Of course, in stories these do happen more often, partly because the times when such incidents don't happen are cut off from the story or otherwise unnoticed. If it weren't for Fudge and his newspaper, maybe something *else* would have happened in which case _that_ would have been the co-incident or Sirius would have stayed in and Harry never heard of him... And as for Sirius blaming and punishing himself: Yes. He would have done that - in fact he was *still* doing it in PoA, but he wanted to explain, tell the full story of it... As for escaping - Dementors are, in most cases, capable of preventing anyone from even *thinking* of it! Freedom is such a happy thought that they'd eat it away. So no one ever escaped Azkaban - until Sirius did. Because, Sirius wasn't thinking of his own freedom. He was thinking that Harry's in danger, that the nasty rat is out - he was desperate to get out. That's why he could think and plan his escape, there was no *happiness* involved. Sirius couldn't think how happy he'd be out - in fact, I doubt that he could think of his own interests at all. He worry about Harry and be angry, bitter etc. at Pettigrew... Desperately willing to kill the rat, blaming himself for ever trusting Peter, not trusting Remus... That thought-pattern stayed on until Harry stopped it. I don't think Sirius would have been *able* to stop such thoughts himself. A depressed person isn't able to just stop, and anyone in Azkaban is depressed or will be. However, once the depressed thought-pattern is gone, Sirius does some re-arranging of his thoughts. The rat's captured. He'll be free... maybe he can even get his godson Harry to live with him? So he goes right at it, still caring enough to make sure that Harry knows he can refuse... There, Sirius took the happiest thoughts he could in the situation... I think Remus gave him chocolate and told him about Harry and the permission slip at some point out of Harry's hearing. -- Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue Apr 8 07:19:50 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 07:19:50 -0000 Subject: Weasley Joke shop...(Was Re: 50 Questions ..) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54916 > Anne U: Well, Harry gave them all of his TWC "winnings" - can we > assume the MOM won't impose a tax on them? Let's just assume that and > figure they spend 30 galleons on some really nice new dress robes for > Ron. That leaves them with $970 galleons which won't enable to them > to open a store right away (IMO) but would give them plenty of money > to invent new joke items. I do think they can't yet open store (as in getting residence for it) but, as they were doing in the first place, use an owl to deliver. Ron's Pigwidgeon. It's not there with the others, so they don't come across their Mom. This time they might even lock their room, being 17 and old enough to do magic legally... Ron might even become their junior partner, providing the delivery owl - and Pigwidgeon's mannerisms *would* suit just perfectly for a joke shop image! After the year they might, if successful, open a shop in Hogsmeade, at the end of a Secret Passage from Hogwarts... (one of the "collapsed" corridors?) -- Finwitch From heidit at netbox.com Tue Apr 8 11:14:31 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (heidit at netbox.com) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 07:14:31 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco Malfoy FAQ or *THE* Post Message-ID: <1f1.617d99b.2bc40917@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54917 In a message dated 4/7/2003 11:44:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, jmholmes at breckcomm.com writes: > I've just spent an hour perusing old messages and I searched the > files and database section for a Draco FAQ without luck. Was the > Draco FAQ ever uploaded? I'd sure appreciate a Point Me if anyone > knows where it is. Also, there's been mention of a well-constructed > post or essay on why Draco is smart/funny/etc by- I believe - a > member of this list, but I'm not recalling that person's name. Again, > any direction would be helpful There was once a Malfoy FAQ - I know - I wrote it and uploaded it over 18 months ago, but somehow it got damaged or corrupted (haha) and has been MIA ever since. I need to recreate it, but it's long and there are a lot of theories and perspectives to incorporate. However, it means I have links to some of the more comprehensive Draco posts and threads - the following might be what you're looking for: Elkins' post from May, 2002, on Redeemable!Draco: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/39083 It's part of the thread that starts around here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/38738 (part five) - from there, you can read through the Message Index and find posts which have DRACO in the subject and you'll catch that thread. There are some older threads, like from January, 2001, and newer ones, like this past December, but that one is pretty comprehensive. And finally - here's a thread on the relationship between Draco and Hermione and the potential impact of friendship or romance on both of them: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/50638 ;) - had to add in a plug for that. Heidi, who will try and spend some time on the FAQ this weekend *Ask me about Nimbus - 2003 :: The first international Harry Potter symposium* http://www.hp2003.org [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From JessaDrow at aol.com Tue Apr 8 10:11:56 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 06:11:56 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Weasley Joke shop...(Was Re: 50 Questions ..) Message-ID: <1ed.6270372.2bc3fa6c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54918 In a message dated 4/8/03 3:30:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, finwitch at yahoo.com writes: > I do think they can't yet open store (as in getting residence for it) > but, as they were doing in the first place, use an owl to deliver. > Ron's Pigwidgeon. It's not there with the others, so they don't come > across their Mom. This time they might even lock their room, being 17 > and old enough to do magic legally... I hope you all don't mind a newbie jumping right in here. :) But I assumed they weren't going to open a shop but do an own post business. Mrs. Weasley did throw out their first order forms. And it would make the most sense. "Jessa" From JessaDrow at aol.com Tue Apr 8 10:25:44 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 06:25:44 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Queries about Sirius's escape (slight FF) Message-ID: <93.2cb6638a.2bc3fda8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54919 In a message dated 4/8/03 2:48:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bboy_mn at yahoo.com writes: > The likelihood that a dog, especially a weak dog could swim across > miles of cold ocean is pretty slim, extremely slim, but the odds that > a human could make the swim are less than zero. So once again, being > an animagus works in Sirius favor. Even as a dog, he shouldn't have > been able to swim that far, but the boiling desire to catch the true > betrayer of the Potters and to protect Harry was enough to give him > the strength to do the impossible. Things like this do happen in real > life, people overcome impossible odds fueled by nothing but a fierce > determination to survive. > Why would he need to swim though? I'm assuming that he could apparate. And while you can't onto the school grounds, he could to Hogsmead. "Jessa" From stix4141 at hotmail.com Tue Apr 8 13:59:22 2003 From: stix4141 at hotmail.com (stickbook41) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 13:59:22 -0000 Subject: 50 Questions I would like answered in Books Five, Six, and Seven In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54920 Greicy wrote: > 23) What is Hermione's deepest desire? Me: I would *so* love to know this. I can't even venture a good guess as to what Hermione might see in the Mirror of Erised, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't have much to do with academics. Greicy: > 24) Will we see the following again: The Mirror of Erised? Firenze? Bane? Ronan? Unicorns? The Ford Anglia? Lockhart? Me: To which I'd like to add: Merpeople? Aragog? Winky? Dobby? Bagman? Moaning Myrtle? Daedelus Diggle? Olivander? And how big of a role will the Creevy brothers play? As for the Mirror, I have a pet theory that the climax of the entire series involves the Mirror of Erised. Greicy: > 28) Will anyone join the Trio, making it the Quad clique? Me: I'm pretty sure that won't happen *IF* the dynamics of the Trio, which are more or less in balence, don't change. Plus, they're pretty autonomous, which makes them a bit exclusive. Any addition at this point would feel like dead weight. Sorry to any Ginny and/or Neville enthusiasts out there. HOWEVER. If the Trio's dynamic changes (like with "more boy-girl stuff"), then all bets are off, in which case Harry's adolescence becomes just as confusing as mine was. Griecy: > 30) Will Rita keep the pact she "made" with Hermione? Will she give anything away? Me: This is what makes Rita so frightening, isn't it? Hermione fans such as myself fear that perhaps Hermione may have finally messed up BIG TIME. Greicy: > 45) Will Hermione's hair ever become "unbushy"? Will Harry's stay in place and not stick out? Me: I hope not. Eventually as you get older you place less importance on these things and maybe even start to like them. At some point fitting in is just not so great anymore and being a distinct individual is the coolest thing ever. (Maybe my view is skewed because I went to art school--freaks everywhere.) Neither Harry nor Hermione seem to be the type to fear individual distinction. Besides, I don't think James's hair ever calmed down. Greicy: > 48) Did the Weasley's ever know the Potters? Me: I don't think so, not personally anyway. Molly didn't seem to recognize Harry (the dead ringer for James) on sight the first time they met in King's Cross. Olivander, however, knew him at once. So did Daedelus Diggle, and Tom the innkeeper at the Leaky Cauldron. Perhaps they could be part of the Old Crowd? Greicy: > 53) Is V after Harry not because Harry maybe the one to destroy him, but someone else? Harry's future child? Is Harry fighting for someone less capable and Voldy doesn't know it? Me: A while ago someone (and I can't remember who, sorry) suggested that Harry could be playing the Aragorn role of protector rather than the Frodo-hero role. There was some speculation as to who the Frodo of the Potterverse was in such a case. I don't think any particular conclusion was reached. Fascinating, nonetheless. Cheers! -stickbook From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue Apr 8 07:53:11 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 07:53:11 -0000 Subject: Command of the Phoenix? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54921 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, alexpie at a... wrote: > > ... What if it is something demanded of Harry, and does not refer > > to a group? The Order of the Phoenix could just as well mean the > > demand or request of the phoenix. ..edited... > > > > Ba > > bboy_mn: > > I think it's a brilliant idea! > > I think most of us assumed the the Order of the Phoenix was > Dumbledore's 'old crowd'. That the Order was an organization assembled > to fight Voldemort. BUT someone pointed out recently that all the > other book titles represent challenges that Harry had to face; finding > the Sorcerer's Stone, the Chamber of Secrets, Prisoner of Azkaban, > Goblet of Fire. In one form or another these are things that, in a > sense, oppose Harry. If Order of the Phoenix represented Dumbledore's > group, they would be allies, and that would break the pattern. > > So, your idea of being ordered by the Phoenix, or the command of the > Phoenix, or if I want to keep going with other ways of saying it, the > Challenge of the Phoenix fits perfectly with the previous titles. > > The challenge could still come from or because of an ally, but it > would be a challenge none the less. It would still be something dark > and dangerous that Harry had to face. Hmm... It could be the group, in which case Harry must face some test before being admitted to join in - a *hard* test. Command of Phoenix - Fawkes most likely - that fits, too. This test involves obeying what ever the phoenix tells you to do... > Another thought that I had, but it goes against the theme of the > titles representing challenges that Harry has to face, is related to > "The Order of the British Empire" which is an award or honor given by > the British government to citizens who have served the country in some > outstanding way. JKR was just awarded 'The Order of the British > Empire'; talk about foreshadowing. > > http://www.vvaa.org.au/ord-be.htm > > But like I said, I don't see anyway to make that represent a challenge > Harry has to face. Well, wizards have "Order of Merlin" for award, so Order of Phoenix might not be one, as such has not been mentioned yet - Harry and Ron gained "special award" for their actions against basilisk and Diary! Tom Riddle - if it's official award, I don't see why Dumbledore Order of Phoenix isn't mentioned in Dumbledore's titles... -- Finwitch From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Tue Apr 8 14:10:15 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 10:10:15 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Queries about Sirius's escape (slight FF) References: <93.2cb6638a.2bc3fda8@aol.com> Message-ID: <01ac01c2fdd8$9430e1f0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54922 "Jessa" wrote: > Why would he need to swim though? I'm assuming that he could apparate. And > while you can't onto the school grounds, he could to Hogsmead. I feel sure that they've set a charm over Azkaban similar to (or the same as) the one at Hogwarts to prevent inmates from simply apparating out of their cells. But perhaps he didn't have to swim the entire way. Maybe once he got a good distance away from the prizon, he was able to apparate the rest of the way to shore. That sounds feasible. ~Katy~ Live in the southeast USA? Join the new HP4GU-Southeast-US regional group! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP4GU-Southeast-US/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sixhoursahead at yahoo.com Tue Apr 8 13:58:16 2003 From: sixhoursahead at yahoo.com (Angela Evans) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 06:58:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Queries about Sirius's escape (slight FF) In-Reply-To: <93.2cb6638a.2bc3fda8@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030408135816.4773.qmail@web14603.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54923 In reference to Sirius swimming in dog-form after his escape from Azkaban, JessaDrow at aol.com wrote: Why would he need to swim though? I'm assuming that he could apparate. And while you can't onto the school grounds, he could to Hogsmead. Me: Jessa I am not sure what you are saying. Are you saying you don't understand why Sirius swam off the island, or that he didn't? Sirius clearly tells Harry that he did indeed swim. Why didn't he Apparate? Because we know that Apparition is tricky magic and Sirius was extremely weak, his Animagi transformations being really the only power he retained while actually in prison. I doubt he would have had the strength to Apparate. And even if he could, I would wager that if Hogwarts has anti-Apparition borders, then Azkaban certainly would. As to the fact that a dog made such a long swim, I agree with Steve about the different factors and advantages Sirius had. I also believe that Padfoot/Snuffles has more strength and stamina that a normal dog (after all he IS magic, and there are various instances in the book that lead me to beleive this. ie fighting off werewolves, etc.) Angela --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From michele_hahn at ept.lu Tue Apr 8 14:13:48 2003 From: michele_hahn at ept.lu (=?iso-8859-1?q?Michele=20Hahn?=) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 15:13:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Voldemorts wand Message-ID: <20030408141348.97612.qmail@web20711.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54924 > My prior question was: > Does Priori Incantatem only show spells which worked properly ? bboy_mn wrote: > As far as the failed AK by Voldemort against Harry, what would you > expect to see? No one died from the death curse so you wouldn't see > anyones image. Given that this was the first time in known history > that a death curse had ever failed, the result from Prior Incantatum > would be impossible to predict. Me: Sorry it was stupid to think Priori Incantatum had any "UNDO" function, I got it now (thanks to bboy_mn) that it can only sort of replay the last spell or an echo of it. After the Quidditch World Cup it displays the dark mark, bboy_mn wrote: >Not sure what you are referring when you mention Peter's hand. Peter's >old original human hand did not appear from the wand during Prior >Incantatum, it was the spell that VOldemort cast to create Peter's new >silver hand that re-appeared from the wand. Or at least, that's how I >saw it Me: I acctually was referring to the new silver hand. For the Cruciatus curse we hear screams. For the Imperius curse we neither hear nor see anything. Actually I don't know how we could see or hear the total absence of thoughts, and the mental orders Voldemort would be giving... But I think the fact that Voldemort is separated from his body, and the fact that Harry was getting the scar was visible the moment the original spell was performed, and in this order of things I thought it should have a visible echo in Priori Incantatum, but really I don't know what it would look like. I am more confused then ever, so is there anyone to help me out ? Persisting questions : 1.Does Priori Incantatum only show spells which worked properly ? 2.Is there only one possible echo for each spell ? (screams for Crucio, Echo of Victim for Avada Kedavra, a replay for spells creating things( silver hand, dark mark, sleeping bags...)) 3.Did Voldemort use another wand to AK Harry ? 4.Is there any stuff in Theorybay yet presuming that there was somebody or something else then Harry's mother's sacrifice making the curse backfire ? Moepi from Luxembourg --------------------------------- Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From goalieracer at yahoo.com Tue Apr 8 15:07:13 2003 From: goalieracer at yahoo.com (goalieracer) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 15:07:13 -0000 Subject: Education before Hogwarts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54925 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Gina R Rosich wrote: > On 4/7/03 10:48 PM, "goalieracer" had this to say: > > > > > > > The Wizarding community would not have an exempion to this..as they > > are still living in the Muggle world. They would have to have proof > > that the children are being educated properly. > > > > > > ME: > > > > Welcome, Barb. Early education is a very interesting quandry. But I don?t agree with the above statement. I think there are plenty of children in the wizarding world who may never get into the radar of the muggles. Mrs. Weasley said she didn?t think the postman would even know how to get to the Burrow. Further, I can?t ever imagine Lucius Malfoy ?lowering? himself to live by any muggle laws. For sure he must?ve hired a private tutor for Draco. Gina What you say is true for some of the WW...Hermione's parents are Muggles...as I am sure there are others who have Muggles as parents or caretakers.They have to deal with educating their children somehow. The Malfoys may be an exception...they obviously have the money to afford to hire a private tutor. But how many families, Muggle or Wizarding can afford to do that? There has to be some type of uniform schooling for the WW...either through Muggle Schools(ie Harry)or Tutors(Malfoy's). And to get uniform schooling, the Tutors or parents who educate their children need to have the same standards. Semi OT...My mother was a teacher and my step sister homeschools and both had to go through rigorous training and testing to be qualified to teach.. Barb > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From erin_smith86 at eku.edu Tue Apr 8 14:28:45 2003 From: erin_smith86 at eku.edu (Smith, Erin S.) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 10:28:45 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: 50 Questions I would like answered in Books Five, Six, and Seven Message-ID: <048C44EF8B8C8E47B2E4FC72D13F92040FB8B4@BIGE.student.eku.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 54926 Someone mentioned on a previous messege also that there might be an evil mole present at Hogwarts. My own personal theory is that it is one of the Creevys. This would fit with their personality, remembering back to the way that WTPP is portrayed in the previous generation. Just a theory, any thoughts? "Erin" From daughterofthedust at yahoo.com Tue Apr 8 15:20:19 2003 From: daughterofthedust at yahoo.com (daughterofthedust) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 15:20:19 -0000 Subject: 50 Questions I would like answered in Books Five, Six, and Seven In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54927 Here a few of mine: 1) Will Neville go the way of Wormtail, will he get personal revange, on behalf of his parents, or will be become a sacrifical lamb?? 2) Will Cho Chang become a "scoobie" by way of her relationship with Harry, will she be used by Voldemort?? 3) Will Norbert and the Hypogriff (his name escapes me just now) have anymore to do in the series?? 4) Where DID the Potters obtain their wealth?? 5)Are any of the beloved Howarts professors Death-Eaters?? 6)What is the deal with Snape??!! Did he love Lily?? 7) Are any of the minor characters going to go over to the Dark side (Angelina, Colin, Alicia, etc...)?? 8)Will there be more schools, wizarding occupations, and world regions involved in this adventure?? 9) Will elves and giants (and any other oppressed magical creatures??) ever get out from under the foot of "The (Wizard) Man"?? 10) Will Ron do something immensely stupid, possibly costing a life, and become bitter??? Don't ask me why, I just have a feeling.... "Daughter of the Dust" From JessaDrow at aol.com Tue Apr 8 16:00:05 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 12:00:05 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Queries about Sirius's escape (slight FF) Message-ID: <12b.27487282.2bc44c05@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54928 In a message dated 4/8/03 11:56:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rainbow at rainbowbrite.net writes: > I feel sure that they've set a charm over Azkaban similar to (or the same > as) the one at Hogwarts to prevent inmates from simply apparating out of > their cells. But perhaps he didn't have to swim the entire way. Maybe once > he got a good distance away from the prizon, he was able to apparate the > rest of the way to shore. That sounds feasible. > I obviously didn't formulate my thought clearly enough but that is pretty much what I had in mind. Thank you for clarifying it for me. Faith [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From JessaDrow at aol.com Tue Apr 8 16:04:04 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 12:04:04 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Queries about Sirius's escape (slight FF) Message-ID: <163.1e98f082.2bc44cf4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54929 In a message dated 4/8/03 11:59:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sixhoursahead at yahoo.com writes: > Jessa I am not sure what you are saying. Are you saying you don't > understand why Sirius swam off the island, or that he didn't? Sirius > clearly tells Harry that he did indeed swim. Why didn't he Apparate? > Because we know that Apparition is tricky magic and Sirius was extremely > weak, his Animagi transformations being really the only power he retained > while actually in prison. I doubt he would have had the strength to > Apparate. And even if he could, I would wager that if Hogwarts has > anti-Apparition borders, then Azkaban certainly would. As to the fact that > a dog made such a long swim, I agree with Steve about the different factors > and advantages Sirius had. I also believe that Padfoot/Snuffles has more > strength and stamina that a normal dog (after all he IS magic, and there > are various instances in the book that lead me to beleive this. ie fighting > off werewolves, etc.) > I had just figured that once a far enough distance away, he would of apparated to somewhere close to Hogsworth, swimming all that distance I imagine would have been more tiring and draining than apparating in the long run. Perhaps he swam for awhile, found somewhere to rest up and gather strength, and then apparated to Hogsworth from there? Faith [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From daughterofthedust at yahoo.com Tue Apr 8 15:25:14 2003 From: daughterofthedust at yahoo.com (daughterofthedust) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 15:25:14 -0000 Subject: Another puzzle about Voldemort's wand In-Reply-To: <000501c2fd7a$dc521700$41a9a7cb@oemcomputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54930 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Briony Coote" wrote: > Dear All, > > Something is bothering me about the Priori Incantatem that was performed > on Voldemort's wand in GoF. What happened to the spell that backfired > and gave Harry his scar? That spell was not regurgitated with the > others, so what happened to it? He didn't hold the chain long enough for to have been regurgiated, I don't think... Or perhaps, since it already backfired, it was like it hadn't been performed (I know I'm reaching). "Daughter of the Dust" From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue Apr 8 16:20:46 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 16:20:46 -0000 Subject: Queries about Sirius's escape (slight FF) In-Reply-To: <20030408135816.4773.qmail@web14603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54931 Angela: I doubt he would have had the strength to Apparate. And even if he could, I would wager that if Hogwarts has anti-Apparition borders, then Azkaban certainly would. As to the fact that a dog made such a long swim, I agree with Steve about the different factors and advantages Sirius had. I also believe that Padfoot/Snuffles has more strength and stamina that a normal dog (after all he IS magic, and there are various instances in the book that lead me to beleive this. ie fighting off werewolves, etc.) Finwitch: Hmm... Sirius animagusform isn't just a dog, it's a big black dog - probably Newfoundlander. These dogs are excellent swimmers, and thus water-rescue-dogs, even as Bernhard a mountain-rescue. While I do think that Sirius made it only barely, because his animagus form was suited for it and because he had lots of adrenaline, and extreme, desperate need to do that. And it's a BIG dog. I don't think there's any extra magical power needed for a big dog to fight off a wolf - I think they were somewhat even. Difference is that Sirius has human mind, and if Remus managed to keep his, that human mind worked to same direction - away from the children... What comes to apparating, I certainly doubt it's possible from Azkaban, and Sirius certainly couldn't stop to try when he can in the cold water. Once he was in the land, resting, eating something (rats - imagining it to be Peter?) - well, he *might* have apparated, I'm not sure if one needs a wand for it - Bill&Charlie - no mention of them having wands out when they apparated into the field, is there? And he did cross a long way relatively fast. Dogs are faster, but that fast? Maybe he *did* apparate after he got away from that island, possibly without even knowing what he was doing? -- Finwitch From devika at sas.upenn.edu Tue Apr 8 16:51:19 2003 From: devika at sas.upenn.edu (Devika) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 16:51:19 -0000 Subject: Queries about Sirius's escape (slight FF) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54932 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "finwitch" wrote: > > Angela: > > I doubt he would have had the strength to Apparate. And even if he > could, I would wager that if Hogwarts has anti-Apparition borders, > then Azkaban certainly would. > Maybe he *did* apparate after he got away from that island, possibly > without even knowing what he was doing? > IIRC, JKR has said that Apparition is strictly regulated by the Ministry of Magic so that wizards don't Apparate into other people's houses, into bank vaults, etc. Maybe the Ministry can keep track of who is Apparating at a given time. If that were true, it would explain why Sirius wouldn't want to Apparate anywhere at all. The Ministry might be able to track him. Also, although I find it difficult to believe that Sirius never learned how to Apparate, it's possible that he didn't do it very much, even before his arrest, and therefore didn't feel confident in his ability not to splinch himself or something like that. After all, before Azkaban, he did have a flying motorcycle. And, IMO, it's much cooler to show up somewhere on a flying motorcycle than by just appearing out of thin air . Of course, Sirius's Apparating abilities are irrelevant if the Ministry was able to track him in the first place, which I think they might be able to do. Devika, who wants Sirius to get his motorcycle back :) From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Apr 8 17:25:08 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 17:25:08 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew in Gryffindor? In-Reply-To: <013901c2fd26$a8846a30$8d4053d1@DJF30D11> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54933 The Sorting Hat seems to consider values as well as abilities. It puts Hermione, who believes there are more important things than cleverness, in Gryffindor. IMO, much as he fails to uphold them, Pettigrew does have Gryffindor values. He isn't brave, but he despises himself for it. We've never seen a Slytherin ashamed of being frightened. As for chivalry, Pettigrew certainly believes the strong should protect the weak. In contrast to the chivalric code, a Slytherin's value system is particular rather than universal: "any means to achieve their ends." Snape doesn't see anything wrong with favoring his own house. Draco thinks any form of rule-breaking is okay, as long as he's the one who's doing it. But Pettigrew is conflicted. He's not pleased with himself for betraying the Potters, or assisting Voldemort or binding Harry, even though he manages all these things successfully. I'll probably get jumped on for this, but I see some similarities between Peter and Hermione. They're both clever, secretive, and not at their best facing an attack. Peter may not be bookish (fortunately for him -- I think the worst thing about spending twelve years as a rat would be having nothing to read) but he has a logical turn of mind. Consider all the desperate rationalizing he does in the Shrieking Shack. If I had to guess why he joined Voldemort, I think he was scared into it (I, of course, firmly believe that there was another spy close to the Potters) but also that he felt unappreciated and inferior in a society where everyone is judged by their magical prowess. Pippin From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Apr 8 17:28:54 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 17:28:54 -0000 Subject: Command of the Phoenix? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54934 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "finwitch" wrote: > > > Another thought that ..., is related to "The Order of the British > > Empire" which is an award or honor given by the British government > > to citizens who have served the country in some > > outstanding way. ...edited... > > > > B... I don't see anyway to make that represent a challenge > > Harry has to face. > > Well, wizards have "Order of Merlin" for award, so Order of Phoenix > might not be one, as such has not been mentioned yet - Harry and Ron > gained "special award" for their actions against basilisk and Diary! > Tom Riddle - if it's official award, I don't see why Dumbledore Order > of Phoenix isn't mentioned in Dumbledore's titles... > > -- Finwitch bboy_mn: someone else made this same comment to me off-line. I responded by email but the email address they used wasn't working, so I'll take this opportunity to respond to the subject. Via Email Lillian M. said: Of everything that I have heard on the subject this sounds most likely. It can even be backed up by Canon, in PoA there is mention of the 'Order of Merlin' which sounds like 'Order of the British Empire' in that a great service to the wizarding world had to be done. Cool, huh? So if we assume that the Order of the Pheonix is an honorary title then what kind of service would one have to do to earn such a title? And what's the difference between 'Order of Merlin' and 'Order of the Phoenix'? Lillian I (bboy_mn) responded: True in the real world their is the Order of the British Empire but there is also- # Order of Garter # Order of St Michael and St George # Order of the Thistle # Royal Victorian Order # Order of St Patrick # Order of the British Empire # Order of Merit # Commonwealth: Orders of Canada, Australia and New Zealand # Companions of Honour # Order of the Bath # Royal Family Orders More Information at - http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/Page490.asp So, it's not unreasonable that there could be other wizard honors. Order of Merlin could be a general civilian honor for wizards; Order of Phoenix could be for someone who distinguished themselves during wartime. Or it could be the next honor above Order of Merlin - First Class; the grandest honor held only by an extremely small number of people in history. In yet unpublished fan fiction Harry is awarded Order of Merlin - First Class and - "(Dumbledore raised his finger and emphasized the word 'and' so people didn't break in with applause before he was finished. Dumbledore opened the wooden box held by his assistent, and removed a wide green ribbon that had a large gold Maltese cross overlaid with crossed wands attached.) ...for his outstanding courage, bravery, and heroism, for virtue, honesty, loyalty, integrety, nobility, valor, honor, and for his selflessness, we award him our highest honor, the Wizard's Cross of Honor. " While Hermione are awarded Order of Merlin - First Class and the Wizards Wand of Valor. (a medal made of medium blue ribbon with two thin vertical white strips and a gold medalion bearing the symbol of a wizard's wand.) Ron was also awarded the Wizards Wand of Valor but with an added Silver Star. [sorry about bringing fan fiction into this, but fan fiction is someone's (in this case mine) opinion of the logical extention of the Potterverse.] The point is that there could be more 'honors' beyond Order of Merlin. Of course, I am making all this up; I really don't have any proof, and we must remember that all the other titles represented challenges that Harry had to face. Just a thought. bboy_mn/Steve From Zarleycat at aol.com Tue Apr 8 17:35:05 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 17:35:05 -0000 Subject: Queries about Sirius's escape (slight FF) In-Reply-To: <163.1e98f082.2bc44cf4@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54935 > > I had just figured that once a far enough distance away, he would of > apparated to somewhere close to Hogsworth, swimming all that distance I > imagine would have been more tiring and draining than apparating in the long > run. Perhaps he swam for awhile, found somewhere to rest up and gather > strength, and then apparated to Hogsworth from there? > I don't think apparation entered into the journey to Hogwarts at all. Of course, I don't have the books with me, so I could be making all of this up, but IIRC, Sirius tells Harry in PoA that he tried to get a glimpse of Harry before travelling to Hogwarts. Thus, Harry's view of the large black dog just before he hailed the Knight Bus. I'm sure Sirius phrased it like "I wanted to see you before I started my journey north..." The word 'journey' sticks in my mind. To me, that implies travel in a manner that takes time and effort. It doesn't sound like magically transporting oneself relatively quickly via one long apparation or via several intermediate apparation stages across the country. It could very well be that a wand is needed (and Sirius doesn't have one) or the Ministry can monitor apparation (so Sirius avoids it) or, being out of practice, Sirius doesn't want to risk splinching himself, or a combination of the three. Marianne From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue Apr 8 17:13:41 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 17:13:41 -0000 Subject: Voldemorts wand/Phoenix In-Reply-To: <20030408141348.97612.qmail@web20711.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54936 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Michele Hahn: > Moepi from Luxembourg > Persisting questions : > > 1.Does Priori Incantatum only show spells which worked properly ? > 2.Is there only one possible echo for each spell ? (screams for Crucio, Echo of Victim for Avada Kedavra, a replay for spells creating things( silver hand, dark mark, sleeping bags...)) > > 3.Did Voldemort use another wand to AK Harry ? > > 4.Is there any stuff in Theorybay yet presuming that there was somebody or something else then Harry's mother's sacrifice making the curse backfire ? Finwitch: 1. Well, it might indeed be so. Only spells that worked... Harry is somewhat immune to Imperius, as he can shook it off. But what Imperius would look/sound/smell like.. no idea. 2. Well, I think that the echo must be related to the curse and be one for each for Priori incantatum to be useful. 3. Why should/would he suddenly change his wand for the kid? 4. Well - I think it *might* be the phoenix feather in Voldemort's wand... Like well - I doubt that the phoenix-cage to form and Phoenix- song is heard with other brother-wands, only those from same phoenix. Fawkes is faithful to his feathers(which might explain how Dumbledore keeps an eye on Harry - Fawkes tells him!)... How do you think Fawkes knew that Harry was "showing true loyalty to Dumbledore" in CoS and to bring the hat? Fawkes is *always* connected to the feathers he has donated. Always. It might even be that phoenix must approve of donation or the wand won't work... - Only few wizards have been able to domesticate a phoenix. Only few wizards have been chosen by a phoenix-feather wand. Only few wizards can summon a patronus. Only few wizards can overthrow Imperius Curse. Only few wizards dare speak Lord Voldemort's name aloud. - We know that all these but domesticating a phoenix have to do with Harry, so the question is, will Harry be taking care of Fawkes because something happens to Dumbledore, also domesticate a phoenix? Harry's wand has Fawkes' tail-feather, his loyalty to Dumbledore has summoned Fawkes (Fawkes knew of Prongs?), Harry's seen the bird's recent rebirth and now Harry has also defeated battle of wills with the brother-wand, hearing Fawkes sing (did Harry hear Dumbledore during the wand-battle, or am I imagining?)... Supposedly, once Dumbledore is gone, Fawkes will be Harry's pet? I wonder, when Dumbledore talked with Sirius - did he have Fawkes with him? He'd know for sure that Sirius is innocent if Sirius was encouraged by Fawkes' singing. -- Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue Apr 8 17:32:51 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 17:32:51 -0000 Subject: Choices... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54937 "It's our choices, far more than our abilities, that show what we truly are" - Well, I just thought, with the Ministry having such trouble to determine who's a person and so far it's been some abilities or features like two-legs - perhaps it's ability to make moral choices that really counts? For one matter, Dobby's *choices* show him as Harry Potter's house- elf, even though his abilities and options do not. -- Finwitch From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Tue Apr 8 16:56:54 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 12:56:54 -0400 Subject: Fleur and Wands (was: 50 Questions..) References: Message-ID: <027501c2fdef$dc47cfa0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54938 Debbie wrote: > GoF, p. 724 US > "We will see each uzzer again, I 'ope," said Fleur..."I am 'oping to > get a job 'ere, to improve my Eenglish." > Of course, does she specificially mean Hogwarts? I always assumed > that, but maybe she meant the U.K. Ahhh, i had forgotten all about that part. But you're right, she could've meant Hogwarts, Hogsmeade, Diagon Alley or anywhere in the UK. She didn't seem impressed with Hogwarts at all when she first arrived, but perhaps she changed her mind by the end of the tournament. I want to see some more action from her "tempermental" wand. In fact, that brings me to another question. I started reading book #1 again and noticed a few things about Olivander's shop that i hadn't before: SS pg. 83 US "Rubeus! Rubeus Hagrid! How nice to see you again... Oak, sixteen inches, rather bendy, wasn't it?" "It was, sir, yes," said Hagrid. "Good wand, that one. But I suppose they snapped it in half when you got expelled?" said Mr. Ollivander, suddenly stern. "Er - yes, they did, yes," said Hagrid, shuffling his feet. "I've still got the pieces, though," he added brightly. "But you don't use them?" said Mr. Ollivander sharply. "Oh, no, sir," said Hagrid quickly. So wands get snapped in two when you're expelled from Hogwarts. I suppose the same practice is used when a wizard is sent to Azkaban? And "pieces" of a wand can still be used to perform magic after the wand is broken. Interesting. SS pg. 81 US "Just Ollivanders left now - only place fer wands, Ollivanders, and yeh gotta have the best wand." Well that makes it sound as though Olivanders is the *only* place to buy wands. But obviously Durmstrang students don't travel to London to buy their school supplies. This is further proven by the following quote: SS pg. 84 US "Every Ollivander wand has a core of a powerful magical substance, Mr. Potter. We use unicorn hairs, phoenix tail feathers, and the heartstrings of dragons." So Ollivander only uses those three items as wand cores. But apparently other people/shops use other ingredients - such as the Veela hair in Fleur's wand. Apparently Hagrid was just sharing his biased opinion that Ollivanders is the BEST wand shop. But i do wonder why Hagrid said "yeh gotta have the best wand"...as if there are different degrees of good, better and best wands. If it were me walking into the shop, i guess i'd be praying that a cheap wand "chose" me ;) I wonder what other cores you could put into a wand and what effects they would have? I think i'd make one that had a Niffler hair as the core...cause they're so darn kute and cuddly :D ~Katy~ Live in the southeast USA? Join the new HP4GU-Southeast-US regional group! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP4GU-Southeast-US/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jmholmes at breckcomm.com Tue Apr 8 17:06:46 2003 From: jmholmes at breckcomm.com (Julie Holmes) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 11:06:46 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pettigrew in Gryffindor? (was: Tom-Harry-Choices / Wand-Transformation / Questions / Wzdg) References: <013901c2fd26$a8846a30$8d4053d1@DJF30D11> Message-ID: <00ef01c2fdf1$3c7bfee0$6401a8c0@arvada1.co.home.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54939 <----- Original Message ----- From: Grace Saalsaa > While I agree that there are multiple forms of ambition, and some are more passive than others (sycophantism for example), I object to the idea that ambition is an inherently evil characteristic. In order to do *good* one must be very ambitious, tenacious, and resourceful. So I disagree with the idea that Slytherin ambition is not possibly of the noble kind. People can be difficult and unlikable, but still do great, *positive* things. For example, Mother Teresa was said to be exceptionally difficult to deal with, but she did accomplish great things (and I know there are different views on the politics and actions of Mother Teresa, which I am totally NOT prepared to argue here...I was just using her as an example). This concept for me goes beyond JKR's canon, for I do tend to believe she uses Slytherin House to embody that which is distasteful in the HP universe. Rather I think, moving beyond the Harry Potter series into a general concept, that it is too easy to pigeonhole all evil into one source. I believe Peter Pettigrew is likely a Gryffindor; I may be proven wrong by further canon. Why does the Sorting Hat sometimes take so long to decide which house someone belongs in? Because the Sorting Hat knows there are choices to be made. The Sorting Hat can place someone in the house it thinks will be most conducive to a person's foremost needs, but it can do only that. The rest is up to the person. I'm curious to see what lies in store for Neville and Seamus, as the hat took quite a long time to sort both of them. If we default Peter to Slytherin on the basis of his evil choices, then why not default Snape to Gryffindor? I think the argument could be made if you base it only on one factor. ~Julie (Slytherincess, just so you know my bias!) From annemehr at yahoo.com Tue Apr 8 18:12:21 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 18:12:21 -0000 Subject: Trelawney's "experience"/Sirius' escape/Voldemort's wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54940 Angela Evans wrote: > In reference to Sirius swimming in dog-form after his escape from >Azkaban, JessaDrow at a... wrote: >> Why would he need to swim though? I'm assuming that he could >>apparate. And while you can't onto the school grounds, he could to >>Hogsmead. Angela replied in part: > [ ] Sirius clearly tells Harry that he did indeed swim. Why didn't >he Apparate? Because we know that Apparition is tricky magic and >Sirius was extremely weak, his Animagi transformations being really >the only power he retained while actually in prison. I doubt he >would have had the strength to Apparate. And even if he could, I >would wager that if Hogwarts has anti-Apparition borders, then >Azkaban certainly would . Annemehr: I agree with Angela here, but this raises a new question: can any animagus apparate while in animal form? Does an animagus need to sustain himself in animal form with a continuous expenditure of magical energy, and if so would it be too difficult to apparate at the same time? Or, once he assumes animal form, can he then "relax" and the form is maintained until he purposefully changes back? In this latter case, maybe apparation would be just as easy (or difficult) in either form. Steve bboy_mn wrote: >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Michele Hahn wrote: > > 1. Does Priori Incantatem only show spells which worked properly ? > bboy_mn: . >As far as the failed AK by Voldemort against Harry, what would you >expect to see? No one died from the death curse so you wouldn't see >anyones image. Given that this was the first time in known history >that a death curse had ever failed, the result from Prior Incantatum >would be impossible to predict. Annemehr: I wonder if some sort of lightening bolt shape emerging from the wand would be reasonable? Of course, Harry doesn't seem to have seen anything of the sort, but I liked the idea. I suppose there could have been an "image" of the vapor that was now Vapor!Mort - which I take to have been actually invisible, not misty. Did Voldemort scream when it happened? I can come up with several ideas of what JKR might have written to represent the failed AK, although in fact she wrote nothing at all between Bertha's shade and Harry's mother or father. Therefore, I am settling for an invisible vapor emerging, which noone could see, and I'm agreeing with Steve. Kristen wrote: >As I continue through my gagillionth read of GoF, I ran across this >curious passage (Ch 29 The Dream, p 577 US): > >"You were clutching your scar!" said Professor Trelawney. "you were >rolling on the floor, clutching your scar! Come now, Potter, I have >experience in these matters!" > >Ok, this leads me to the question... what experience? How does >Trelawney have experience in curse scars? If she had said that he >was "seeing" and she had experience in that, I would understand, but >she is suggesting that she has special knowledge with respect to >curse scars. I am interested to hear how others interpret this. > Steve bboy_mn replied: >Your answer lies two paragraphs above the one you quoted. >"Are you alright?" he (Ron) said. > >"Of course he isn't!" said Professor Trelawney, looking thoroughly >excited. Her great eyes loomed over Harry, gazing at him. "What was >it, Potter? A premonition? An apparition? What did you see?" > >Premonitions, apparitions, and 'seeing' are the things Trelawney has >experience in. She seems to understand that there is more going on >here than a headache, and she is just dying to get Harry to talk >about it. Annemehr: So Steve supposes that Harry clutching his scar is what gives Trelawney the indication that Harry was having no mere nightmare but some kind of vision? Yet to Kristen it seems there is more to Trelawney's experience in scars. Hmmm... Well, I don't know which it is, but *what irony* it would be that the very scene where *I* always think, "at last, Harry is going straight to Dumbledore with what is obviously important information!" is the very scene where he should have stopped and explored the situation further first! Kristen, I bet you are right, and Trelawney is not *merely* and old fraud, on the same level of usefulness as Gilderoy Lockhart. And really, I should have been more attentive, given the two real predictions we know about -- two more useful things than Lockhart had ever done (other than letting Ron out of having to explain his broken wand)! Since your post I am thinking that Trelawney does indeed have some useful knowledge of divination; however, it is masked by her unfortunate habit (fueled by a wish to look good) of constantly spewing out lame predictions. I'll be looking out for her in future! Kristen continued: >This is followed by the following: > >"My dear, you were undoubtedly stimulated by the extraordinary >clairvoyant vibrations of my room!" said Professor Trelawney. "If >you leave now, you may lose the opportunity to see further than you >have ever--" > >This paragraph seems to be some major foreshadowing to me. >Apparently, in her classroom, Harry would have the opportunity to >explore the hidden powers of his curse scar. Could Trelawney's >classroom open up some big doors for Harry to fight LV? I think so >(plus I think this is the only reason for Harry to remain in >Divination - so that something like this could happen). Annemehr: I think this is an intriguing possibility. On the other hand, she knows nothing of the dream which Harry had in his own room at Privet Drive, or the other, vaguer dreams he has also had at the Dursleys' and in his own dorm. Kristen again: > >Another thing I would point out is that Harry usually seems to have >his dreams in her classroom that is hot, stuffy and the air is >scented...like, say, a flower bed in the middle of July. Could the >flowerbed Harry is lying in in the beginning of Book 5 stimulate the >same response as Trelawney's classroom? > Annemehr: Well, I didn't think it was the stuffiness per se that was the link, because the other time he dreamed like that was at the Durlseys', where he would have certainly had the window open if it was going to be stuffy. Back when the announcement of the release of OoP came out, there was much discussion of who was lying in the flowerbed and why. I thought that it was significant that Harry's visions of what was happening with Voldemort always happened in a *dream*. My (maybe pretty lame) theory was that Harry was outside, awake, when it was suddenly neccessary for him to have an important vision, and that his scar therefore knocked him out right where he was (so that he landed in the flowers), and gave it to him. Annemehr From jmholmes at breckcomm.com Tue Apr 8 17:09:24 2003 From: jmholmes at breckcomm.com (Julie Holmes) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 11:09:24 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pettigrew in Gryffindor? (was: Tom-Harry-Choices / Wand-Transformation / Questions / Wzdg) References: Message-ID: <00f201c2fdf1$9c1d3260$6401a8c0@arvada1.co.home.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54941 <----- Original Message ----- From: sam2sar > <> I disagree. Unless he died trying to avoid joining Voldemort, or died trying to escape his servitude (like Snape could have), then he is there by choice. He's there by choice. He is. And maybe we'll find out more about why that is so. My two cents. ~Julie From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue Apr 8 18:22:02 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 18:22:02 -0000 Subject: Education before Hogwarts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54942 > Barb: > What you say is true for some of the WW...Hermione's parents are > Muggles...as I am sure there are others who have Muggles > as parents or caretakers.They have to deal with educating their > children somehow. Me: Somehow, but no law says they must attend a school, even though that's most common manner to achieve the education. The children can i.e. take exams during vacations to show the amount of their education. Some Muggles go abroad for a year and do the same sort of thing... It's just a matter of arrangement, really. Hermione, for one, may have taken all possible Muggle exams, which she couldn't do if she'd had have to attend a Muggle school, so there's even a good *reason* for her to study on her own, because she learns *more* that way. Harry was in elementary Muggle school with Dudley(which he has recordedly left), he has glasses, and so far as we know, no other Muggle record has him in it! And, as Dursleys lie to those who know of Harry, not many do - or Harry's to pretend he doesn't exist... Dursleys pretend that Harry doesn't exist to the world... -- Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue Apr 8 19:05:07 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 19:05:07 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew in Gryffindor? (was: Tom-Harry-Choices / Wand-Transformation / Questions / Wzdg) In-Reply-To: <00ef01c2fdf1$3c7bfee0$6401a8c0@arvada1.co.home.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54943 Julie wrote: > I believe Peter Pettigrew is likely a Gryffindor; I may be proven wrong by > further canon. Why does the Sorting Hat sometimes take so long to decide > which house someone belongs in? Because the Sorting Hat knows there are > choices to be made. The Sorting Hat can place someone in the house it thinks > will be most conducive to a person's foremost needs, but it can do only > that. The rest is up to the person. I'm curious to see what lies in store > for Neville and Seamus, as the hat took quite a long time to sort both of > them. I agree that PP was Gryffindor. Hufflepuff is no no for this lazy traitor. He isn't bright enough for Ravenclaw... What comes to Slytherin, PP isn't able to make much decisions for himself, unless it's about survival or dying. He has the characteristics of a servant, and Slytherin character is leading - to command if not always with responsibility to others. What comes to his courage: no, he won't sacrifise his life for anyone. He's the Survivor. But he *did* go to be with a werewolf as a rat and *willingly* cut off his hand? Did not whine all that much, did he, even if he did beg for help? Oh, he does have courage, he simply won't get himself killed just to avoid being considered a coward. As much as Sirius loathes him, *coward* is something that filthy rat hasn't been called. And well, there's many kinds of courage, heroism is just one of them. As much as Neville modestly thinks he's not brave enough to be Gryffindor, I figure that if such was true, Gryffindor house would be empty. About the sorting time... When the hat announced Malfoy Slytherin, it stayed so very little time that I thought it wanted off and quick at that! So, maybe the hat had a *chat* with Neville, tried to comfort him about his parents... I think the sorting hat liked him and would have liked to stay - it probably just talked nice until Neville asked it to sort him... -- Finwitch From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Tue Apr 8 18:35:22 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 18:35:22 -0000 Subject: 50 Questions I would like answered in Books Five, Six, and Seven In-Reply-To: <048C44EF8B8C8E47B2E4FC72D13F92040FB8B4@BIGE.student.eku.edu> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54944 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Smith, Erin S." wrote: > Someone mentioned on a previous messege also that there might be an evil mole present at Hogwarts. My own personal theory is that it is one of the Creevys. This would fit with their personality, remembering back to the way that WTPP is portrayed in the previous generation. Just a theory, any thoughts? > > "Erin" Oh--Colin is the wormtail? Oh what an intriguing circumstance. However, part of the dynamic included that fact the wormtail was exactly stellar at his studies (near squib maybe). We don't know how Colin is fairing in his studies? "Serena" From JessaDrow at aol.com Tue Apr 8 17:52:45 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 13:52:45 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fleur and Wands (was: 50 Questions..) Message-ID: <141.eb91f50.2bc4666d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54945 In a message dated 4/8/03 1:47:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rainbow at rainbowbrite.net writes: > So wands get snapped in two when you're expelled from Hogwarts. I suppose > the same practice is used when a wizard is sent to Azkaban? And "pieces" of > a wand can still be used to perform magic after the wand is broken. > Interesting. Yes, but I imagine not very well. Remember all the problems Ron had with his wand after it broke in CoS? So I imagine Hadrig worked hard and long on repairing his wand. ~~Faith~~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From magsthomas at yahoo.com Tue Apr 8 19:57:22 2003 From: magsthomas at yahoo.com (Margaret Thomas) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 12:57:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Professor Trelawney's "experience" In-Reply-To: <1049776863.12061.13419.m15@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030408195722.46933.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54946 > From: "GKJPO" [snip!] > curious passage (Ch 29 The Dream, p 577 US): > > "You were clutching your scar!" said Professor > Trelawney. "...[snip!] Come now, Potter, I have > experience in these matters!" > > How does > Trelawney have experience in curse scars? [snip!] First, I thought this was a great post! :) It latches on to those little "Said Under Rowling's breath: Probably Reflects an Important Story Element" (SURPRISE! - coined a new acronym!) comments that JKR peppers throughout her books. So Trelawney "has special knowledge" (or experience) in curse scars... I think there are a few things we don't know yet about Harry's scar and its behavior / significance. Trelawney's "experience" with curse scars (however she came by it) may prove her usefulness in books 5-7 beyond the two presumed accurate divinations -- both of which had to do with Voldemort. Kristen asks *how* Trelawney received this experience. To me the *how* doesn't matter so much as the fact that she *has* it -- and that Harry may benefit from it on the road to defeating Voldemort. On that note, I think we'll still have some unanswered hows and whys by the time we read the final page of book 7 -- events that occur in the back story and character profiles JKR developed. Then there's a part of me that would love to see both Hermione and McGonagall thoroughly shocked at seeing Trelawney somehow legitimized. I really enjoy Hermione and McGonagall's student-teacher mutual admiration, and both seem intent dismissing / discounting Divination's (and Trelawney's) validity. Their point of view is helped along by Harry and Ron routinely fabricating their homework assignments. Sure, Trelawney is more than a little batty and Harry finds her annoying...yet Dumbledore seems to think Trelawney may surprise him yet... > "My dear, you were undoubtedly stimulated by the > extraordinary > clairvoyant vibrations of my room!" said Professor > Trelawney. "If > you leave now, you may lose the opportunity to see > further than you > have ever--" > > This paragraph seems to be some major foreshadowing > to me. > Apparently, in her classroom, Harry would have the > opportunity to > explore the hidden powers of his curse scar. [snip!] In their book on HP plot points (Ultimate Unofficial Guide to the Mysteries of Harry Potter) Waters and Mithrandir comment that JKR repeatedly uses dialogue interruptions as a convention to keep the reader from learning key information. Among their other analyses / hypotheses, I think it's one of the more plausible...especially after returning to books 1 - 3 following the revelations GoF. So now I pay attention to interrupted dialogue as a conventional clue device. Here we have an example of interrupted dialogue *from* GoF...extraordinary clairvoyant vibrations in the Divination classroom...Harry's just had another frightening premonition and emerges from a trance-like state...The interruption occurs when Trelawney's telling Harry that if he leaves the room, he may lose an opportunity to see even more...hmmm... So there's opportunity to learn even more in the Divination's classroom -- in particular, about Harry's scar. I don't have GoF or PoA at my side for a description of that room (beyond remembering its overpowering perfume, teacups, and cushions)...Is that classroom perhaps *round* (not unlike the room on Mary GrandPre's OotP cover)?...At the very least, I wager that the Divination classroom is more than it seems. Perhaps a room we haven't explored yet -- one that merits further exploration (a la the foreshadowing JKR has provided us of Book 5)?... (Admittedly, I'll engage in Divination of a sort -- analyzing tidbits of the previous books like so many tea leaves in order to predict future plot points! -- anything to pass the time until June 21!) - Mags __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com From annemehr at yahoo.com Tue Apr 8 20:01:49 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 20:01:49 -0000 Subject: Fleur and Wands (was: 50 Questions..) In-Reply-To: <141.eb91f50.2bc4666d@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54947 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, JessaDrow at a... wrote: > In a message dated 4/8/03 1:47:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > rainbow at r... writes: > > > So wands get snapped in two when you're expelled from Hogwarts. I suppose > > the same practice is used when a wizard is sent to Azkaban? And "pieces" of > > a wand can still be used to perform magic after the wand is broken. > > Interesting. > > Yes, but I imagine not very well. Remember all the problems Ron had with his > wand after it broke in CoS? So I imagine Hadrig worked hard and long on > repairing his wand. > > ~~Faith~~ > I, on the other hand, imagine that *Dumbledore* is responsible for restoring the wand to at least some working order, and probably also for the pink umbrella, too! :) After all, we know that Dumbledore realises the value of a bit of rule-breaking when the circumstances warrant it! Annemehr who thinks Dumbledore probably taught Hagrid a thing or two on the side, as well... From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue Apr 8 19:34:09 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 19:34:09 -0000 Subject: Fleur and Wands (was: 50 Questions..) In-Reply-To: <027501c2fdef$dc47cfa0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54948 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Katy Cartee" wrote: > > In fact, that brings me to another question. I started reading book #1 again and noticed a few things about Olivander's shop that i hadn't before: > > SS pg. 83 US > "Rubeus! Rubeus Hagrid! How nice to see you again... > Oak, sixteen inches, rather bendy, wasn't it?" > "It was, sir, yes," said Hagrid. > "Good wand, that one. But I suppose they snapped it > in half when you got expelled?" said Mr. Ollivander, > suddenly stern. > "Er - yes, they did, yes," said Hagrid, shuffling his > feet. "I've still got the pieces, though," he added brightly. > "But you don't use them?" said Mr. Ollivander sharply. > "Oh, no, sir," said Hagrid quickly. > > So wands get snapped in two when you're expelled from Hogwarts. I suppose the same practice is used when a wizard is sent to Azkaban? And "pieces" of a wand can still be used to perform magic after the wand is broken. Interesting. > Me: Well, Hagrid's wand was snapped in two, but possibly it's not *always* cut! After all, Hagrid was (falsely) accused of endangering lives of students (several died?)... Performing Hoovering Charm/some minor magic at home? What comes to Ollivanders being the only place to buy wands, well - it's only one in Diagon Alley, I suppose - possibly only one in Britain, too. Krum bought his from a wandmaker Ollivander knew - Fleur, then: I believe that Fleur's Veela-wand is her own making, made during her second last year! "Hair from a head of a Veela. My Grand-mother's". So, she got the core from her grandmother - big broblem for Ollivander to *get* one, but she just asked her dear grandmother, the rose-wood probably grew in the yard... She might make a wand for her sister, I think... -- Finwitch From Nickamano at btinternet.com Tue Apr 8 19:38:32 2003 From: Nickamano at btinternet.com (Nick) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 19:38:32 -0000 Subject: Trelawney's "experience"/Sirius' escape/Voldemort's wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54949 "Olivander's in the only place to buy wands" (paraphrased quote or whatever you call it.) - I'm assuming that 'only' refers to 'best' - the only place worth visiting, simply because it's the best. (or possibly the only place in Diagon ally). As For Peter Pettigrew and the houses of the Marauders. People can change, character traits that are in the background of a personality at a young age can come to the fore in adulthood. It dangerous to judge characters as adults to how they could have been as children. Also, looking at Hogwarts student lives of Harry's age for reference - I can't see how four people could become the closest of friends without being in the same House. The only none Gryffindor 'friends' Harry associates with are the likes of Cedric Diggory, Cho Chang and the like. He only knows them through Quidditch and / or shared lessons. But to be 'inseperable' as the Marauders were made out to be I think they would have had to be in the same house - just to give them chance to get to know each other well enough to get that close. "Nick" From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue Apr 8 19:56:46 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 19:56:46 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew's choice In-Reply-To: <00f201c2fdf1$9c1d3260$6401a8c0@arvada1.co.home.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54950 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Julie Holmes" wrote: > I disagree. Unless he died trying to avoid joining Voldemort, or died trying > to escape his servitude (like Snape could have), then he is there by choice. > He's there by choice. He is. And maybe we'll find out more about why that is > so. > > My two cents. > > ~Julie But it *is* explained! Pettigrew himself, explaining: "He would've killed me! What was there to be gained by opposing him?" There. The rat. Survivor. Anything - anything at all, to stay alive. And, well - Voldemort *was* after immortality, had even gotten quite far with it! Really... V could have told him: "Oppose me, and I kill you. Serve well as my spy, and you never need to die". I can see Harry and Ron yelling to that offer: "I will never serve you!" Neville probably wouldn't say anything, just stare with wide eyes. Hermione... I'm not so sure what she would do. Run to library? -- Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue Apr 8 20:15:54 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 20:15:54 -0000 Subject: Fleur and Wands (was: 50 Questions..) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54951 Annemehr" wrote: > I, on the other hand, imagine that *Dumbledore* is responsible for > restoring the wand to at least some working order, and probably also > for the pink umbrella, too! :) Naturally! "Great man, Dumbledore". "Gives second chances, he does"... Hagrid admires no one more than Dumbledore, stands no insult to him - just giving him a job to warrant that? Nah - but fixing his wand? Oh, Hagrid would know nothing better! Well, now that Harry has cleared his name, well... did he get a new wand or keep the fixed one? -- Finwitch From cbdm1121 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 8 20:19:09 2003 From: cbdm1121 at yahoo.com (Tom Marvolo Riddle) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 20:19:09 -0000 Subject: Comments on several open subjects (re: Hagrid's wand, Pettigrew, Trelawny) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54952 Howdy, I usually do more reading than poting, but I had a variety of small comments to make on some of the discussions, so here goes. 1. Hagrid Wand. I think it might be a mistake to assume that Hagrid's wand was ever snapped in two. So far, the only proof we have of this is Hagrid's word. It's possible that he had to lie to Olivander (indeed, to everybody) in order to cover up the fact the Dumbledore allowed him to keep his wand intact after he was Expelled. I think it's also possible dumbledore transfigured the wand into a pink umbrella just to hide it better. It's not always a good idea to take anybody's word for it in these books. (Similar to the discussion of Snape and the DADA job, where the only evidence that he even wants it is Percy). 2. Pettigrew - Slytherin? I'm sorry, I don't remember who, but someone said that part of the Slytherin character is a leadership ability. I disagree. I don't really see Crabbe and Goyle being able to lead much of anything, yet there they are in Slytherin. That said, I stlil think Peter Pettigrew was in Gryffindor simply because I'm positive James, Sirius and Remus were, (personal belief) and I just don't see three Gryffindors making friends with a Slytherin. It's be like seeing Malfoy hanging out with HRH. Possible, yes, but highly unlikely. 3. Trelawny and her experience with these matters - I do think there's more to this story than we know right now, but every time I read that part, I get the sense that Trelawny is pulling a Lockhart, rushing to Harry's aide acting like she knows everything without any real idea what she's talking about. Ah well, thanks for reading my misc. rantings. Zach (who can't really spell miscellanious) From kewiromeo at aol.com Tue Apr 8 20:34:30 2003 From: kewiromeo at aol.com (kewiromeo at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 16:34:30 EDT Subject: Dobby in Book 5 Message-ID: <184.1920b1e4.2bc48c56@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54953 Haven't posted in a while, my box gets filled up with HP messages fast. So I decided I would post something while I'm bored. I think Dobby will come work for the Dursleys. I mean why not? Dobby will find Harry laying in the flowerbed, and the sign of a good house elf is that they aren't seen. Something like that might happen. I am just bored of waiting really. I think the add came out about 160 days before release. we are at about 74, still just frustrating. One of these days we'll get it heh. Tzvi of Brooklyn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From grosich at nyc.rr.com Tue Apr 8 21:17:19 2003 From: grosich at nyc.rr.com (Gina Rosich) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 14:17:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Comments on several open subjects (re: Hagrid's wand, Pettigrew, Trelawny) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030408211719.78726.qmail@web13105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54954 Tom Marvolo Riddle wrote: 1. Hagrid Wand. I think it might be a mistake to assume that Hagrid's wand was ever snapped in two. So far, the only proof we have of this is Hagrid's word. It's possible that he had to lie to Olivander (indeed, to everybody) in order to cover up the fact the Dumbledore allowed him to keep his wand intact after he was Expelled. I think it's also possible dumbledore transfigured the wand into a pink umbrella just to hide it better. *** ME: Actually, I question Hagrid's wand being snapped in two as well. His wand was described as rather bendy. I thought that was rather significant. --- Gina --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jmholmes at breckcomm.com Tue Apr 8 20:14:13 2003 From: jmholmes at breckcomm.com (Julie Holmes) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 14:14:13 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pettigrew's choice References: Message-ID: <005201c2fe0b$6cc461e0$6401a8c0@arvada1.co.home.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54955 <----- Original Message ----- From: finwitch > Oh, I don't disagree that an explanation is offered: < Pettigrew himself, explaining: "He would've killed me! What was there to be gained by opposing him?" There. The rat. Survivor. Anything - anything at all, to stay alive.> Just because Peter gave an explanation doesn't mean it's an acceptable one, though. Ultimately, we are responsible for our choices. Peter *chose* to do what he did. I think Hermione is a very strong character. I think she would tell Voldemort what he could do to himself and how fast. I honestly think she'd rather die than align herself with Voldemort or endanger Harry in any way. Again, just my two cents! ~Julie From m.bockermann at t-online.de Tue Apr 8 21:50:35 2003 From: m.bockermann at t-online.de (m.bockermann at t-online.de) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 23:50:35 +0200 Subject: Command of the Phoenix? References: <1049830074.10411.66498.m6@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <006301c2fe1a$48222fc0$ee909fc1@bockerma> No: HPFGUIDX 54956 << Another thought that I had, but it goes against the theme of the > titles representing challenges that Harry has to face, is related to > "The Order of the British Empire" which is an award or honor given by > the British government to citizens who have served the country in some > outstanding way. <<< Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54957 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Margaret Thomas wrote: > First, I thought this was a great post! Why, thank you! :) > Then there's a part of me that would love to see both > Hermione and McGonagall thoroughly shocked at seeing > Trelawney somehow legitimized. > Sure, Trelawney is more than a little batty and Harry > finds her annoying...yet Dumbledore seems to think > Trelawney may surprise him yet... > I'm not sure that Trelawney will turn out to be as useful as her classroom :), but we already know that she has some useful history we've yet to learn the details of with her first correct prediction. > So there's opportunity to learn even more in the > Divination's classroom -- in particular, about Harry's > scar. I don't have GoF or PoA at my side for a > description of that room (beyond remembering its > overpowering perfume, teacups, and cushions)...Is that > classroom perhaps *round* (not unlike the room on Mary > GrandPre's OotP cover)?...At the very least, I wager > that the Divination classroom is more than it seems. > Perhaps a room we haven't explored yet -- one that > merits further exploration (a la the foreshadowing JKR > has provided us of Book 5)?... > Trelawney's room is indeed round, but there is no description of 3 doors in there. The room is very dark however and it's possible, we've not seen the whole thing yet, but it's hard to say. I wonder if her classroom could be the gateway to another physical area - closer to the spirit world (this is of course my own speculation). > (Admittedly, I'll engage in Divination of a sort -- > analyzing tidbits of the previous books like so many > tea leaves in order to predict future plot points! -- > anything to pass the time until June 21!) > Don't we all! Kristen From flamingstarchows at att.net Tue Apr 8 22:15:41 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (FlamingStar Chows) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 17:15:41 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Queries about Sirius's escape (slight FF) References: <163.1e98f082.2bc44cf4@aol.com> Message-ID: <007901c2fe1c$657faa00$4818570c@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 54958 sixhoursahead at yahoo.com writes: Sirius clearly tells Harry that he did indeed swim. As to the fact that > a dog made such a long swim, I agree with Steve about the different factors > and advantages Sirius had. I also believe that Padfoot/Snuffles has more > strength and stamina that a normal dog (after all he IS magic, and there > are various instances in the book that lead me to beleive this. ie fighting > off werewolves, etc.) > Faith writes: I had just figured that once a far enough distance away, he would of apparated to somewhere close to Hogsworth, swimming all that distance I imagine would have been more tiring and draining than apparating in the long run. Perhaps he swam for awhile, found somewhere to rest up and gather strength, and then apparated to Hogsworth from there? ----Me---- this is in the letter from Sirius to Harry in the last chapter of PoA (American 1st Edition, Paperback). "I would also like to apologize for the fright I think I gave you that night last year when you left your uncle's house. I had only hoped to get a glimpse of you before starting my journey north, but I think the sight of me alarmed you." I'd say that makes it pretty clear that after he swam to shore, he traveled on foot to Hogsmeade, probably in his animagus form for most of the way. From tammy at mauswerks.net Tue Apr 8 20:51:40 2003 From: tammy at mauswerks.net (Tammy Rizzo) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 16:51:40 -0400 Subject: A relayed post from a 'would-be-should-be-can't-be-right-now' HP4GU-er Message-ID: <3E92FE1C.26384.6F3CE92@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 54959 H'lo, group. :) My sister, Shelly, is unable to subscribe at the present time (her home computer is suffering serious dial-up problems, and her work computer is monitered for exessive email), but she is very much a grown-up Potter fan, so I have been forwarding her a small number of, to my mind, wonderful posts from tihs list, which she then discusses with me. With the recent post about the Draco FAQ, and the links to some older essays on him, I found Elkins' post (#39083 -- Re: Draco Malfoy Is Ever So Lame. Yet Sympathetic. And Dead, Too.) and sent it to her in its entirety. She sent this back to me, and gave me permission to share it with the list. I hope this isn't against the rules? I didn't see anything against doing this, but then, it's been a little while since I read them last . . . ---------- I won't make you scroll, but I just had to put in my two cents' worth. I haven't finished it, yet, but I read the part about how he responded with "shamed fury" to the accusation that he bought his way onto the team. I think Draco's MAIN focus for his hatred of Harry AND himself is the fact that Harry is a leader, and his followers love and follow him because of Harry's qualities, and character. Draco, on the other hand, has his followers, but they do not follow him out of loyalty to him, or love for him, or even admiration for his qualities as a sneaky Slytherin. He basically INHERITED Crabbe and Goyle, whose fathers are likewise followers of Voldemort, led by Malfoy. The other Slytherin follow his example because they've been TAUGHT to. He's a MALFOY, after all. His father is a mover-and-shaker in the evil community, and Draco is Lucius's heir. If Voldemort were an emperor, Lucius would be king, or at least prince, under him. Draco is expected to follow in his father's footsteps of power, and HE CAN'T DO IT! He really IS a bit of a wimp, moron, and incompetent boob, and he knows it. The others probably know it, too, but follow him because the hierarchy has been set. Where Harry EARNED his friends' loyalty, love, and trust, Draco had his followers handed to him on a silver platter, and he knows he'd be nothing without his father's power. This has got to irk the kid, no end. He's a follower, stuck in a position of leadership, which he did not choose. Moreover, his closest followers, Crabbe and Goyle, are even more moronic than he is. Maybe if he had some really GOOD henchmen (along the lines of an evil-twin version of Ron and Hermione), maybe he could accomplish something. If Crabbe and Goyle could THINK, they could give him some good sneaky ideas, or at least not hinder him in his little nitnoy plots. Let's face it, for Draco to be a "rival peer" to Harry, he needs to be on an equal footing, and all the disadvantages are on Draco's side. Who cares about money, power, brains, brawn, etc.? I'm talking about the strength of the "dreamteams" in play. Let's compare it to D&D for a moment. Harry has very high scores in the dexterity, constitution, intelligence, wisdom and charisma factors. Ron has more wisdom than intelligence, perhaps. Hermione is practically a 25 on intelligence. They are strong characters, whose strengths compensate for each others' weaknesses. Now let's compare the "evil team." Crabbe and Goyle have high strength scores, and absolutely nothing else. Draco is average on all his scores, but no more than that. Now, really, how fair is that? Even if he were more like Ron, who is, in point of fact, rather "average" in his abilities, if Draco had two strong team members to balance it out, someone else of high intelligence, wisdom, charisma, or SOMETHING, then it would be a more equal match. Poor Draco, due to the patriarchal society in which he lives, he has been stuck in a position of power, but has been given absolute gits as henchmen, and therefore, has no REAL power at all. If his henchmen had been chosen on the basis of ability, rather than patrimony, he might be a real mover-and-shaker, as well. As it is, he's been set up to fail. His father should have encouraged him to seek out talent among the other Slytherins. There are surely some powerful, potent, intelligent, or wise students in that house. They probably aren't "pureblood," or "respectable" enough for Lucius to allow Draco to play with them, though. OK, now I'll read some more. As has been pointed out, Draco is not a House leader. He's not popular or well-liked even within his own house. He has his friends who have been arranged by his parents. Probably even Pansy has been "arranged" by his and her parents, in one sense or another. The rest of the house couldn't care less about him. As for Snape's seeming love of Draco, is it possible that he's been cozying up to Draco all this time in order to preserve his position with Lucius Malfoy, in the event of Voldemort's return to power? He's obviously got some sort of double-triple-multiple cross PLANNED. At the end of GOF, Dumbledore said, "You know what to do," or words to that effect. His role has been planned for some time, and his making Draco into his pet might very well have been prep work. As for the redeemable aspect, I can see it. Draco knows his weakness, and knows that he'll have to ally with the stronger side, in order to survive. At the beginning, of course, he believes his father is stronger. Harry's just a little kid. The whiney, pouty, petulant boy who wants the love and admiration of his father, and can't possibly get it, would be jealous of Harry, yes, but if he has any brains at all, then by the end, when it seems that Harry might actually win, Draco will probably turn against his father, the man who set him up to fail, and who has so little love for him. Draco may very well become a turncoat, even if he doesn't embrace goodness, per se. He would probably turn from evil. Or at least from Voldemort and Lucius Malfoy. He is similar to Peter Pettigrew in many ways. Peter WANTS to leave Voldemort, but now that he's been "outed," the other side won't have him. Voldemort is gaining strength, and Peter has to follow SOMEONE, so he follows Voldemort. Draco's biggest battle will be the one against his self-hatred. When he finally realizes that he is his OWN person, and can and should stand on his own two feet, I think he might very well turn away from Voldemort and Malfoy, even though Harry and the gang would not welcome him with open arms. Draco's victory would be a reclamation of self, good and evil being completely beside the point to him. He strikes me as more of a "neutral" aligned character, stuck in an evil household. He has to act bad, whether he really wants to, or not. He'll probably never be "good," but he can certainly embrace neutrality, and that would be where he would find his strength. As an independent character, stripped of his henchmen, I do believe he could survive, and even thrive. He does have wit, and some native charm, and enough intelligence to succeed, if he puts it all to work. So far he has not, because he has not seen himself in a position to require, or even allow, him to play to his strengths. He's trying to be his father, when he clearly isn't. In this respect, his very much IS Harry's opposite. Harry is the orphan, who can be anything he chooses, and chooses to follow in his father's footsteps. Draco is the son who is forced into the role of following in his father's footsteps, and doesn't LIKE it. Perhaps that is his purpose in the narrative? To be the exemplar, who shows that everyone, orphan or member of a living family, every person on this earth will eventually have to choose for himself, and not remain subjugated by the circumstances to which he was born. Therein lies his redemption, I believe. Haaa!!!! Twisted little featherboa wearers, are we? Heck, yes! Harry is never so sexy as he is during the final confrontation scenes, when he's manfully struggling against the villain, despite his many wounds. You just want to wash him, bandage him, and kiss ALL his booboos and make him feel all better. Boy, does this lady know what she's talking about. Draco is, indeed, an underdog, and the hurt/comfort scenario is very real. Although on an intellectual level, we may revolt if Hermione or Ginny were to fall in with Draco, on a more primeval level, we'd all have to admit that we all had a few ideas along that line at some point or other. A relationship with the girl Harry sees as "just a friend," could very well result in a kind of tumultuous redemption. Imagine Draco telling Lucius that he's dating a WEASLEY! That he's in love with a WEASLEY! That he wants to marry a WEASLEY! It may be the only peer-rival battle that Draco could win against Harry. If Harry ignores Ginny for too long, and then Draco actually takes an interest in her, her "he's a bad boy, but I can help him" instinct could very well take over, and she might let herself be sucked in. And then, if he discovers that she does care for him, if he should ever build up the strength and courage to choose HER over his own father, well, that would clinch it. She'd be his forever. Talk about redemption. OK, back to reading. Where was I? Oh, yeah, featherboas. Hee! Dead Draco. After he turns his back on his father, his father shoots him in the back? I can see a combination redemption/death scene, oh, yeah. Nothing brings out the emotions in female readers than a redemption/death scene. How many times have you heard the line, "They can't DO that! I was just starting to LIKE him!" The truth is, you subconsciously liked him all along, but were finally "given permission" to like him, because of his redemption, and then, the sexy object of your desire was ripped away from you, right at the moment you were about to give him some serious snuggles! Yep. They boy's deader'n a doornail! From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Tue Apr 8 23:32:27 2003 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 23:32:27 -0000 Subject: Summer Night (a filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54960 It's not often I go for a movie musical over a stage musical, but this song is one of them. It is a filk of "Summer Nights", titled "Summer Night", from the movie "Grease". I dedicate this filk to David Paterson. I doubt I ever would have written this filk if it wasn't for his most entertaining "Wizard School Dropout". Summer Night SCENE: Gryffindor Common Room. Harry and Ron have missed their second-year Sorting Feast and have been sent to bed with only sandwiches. They are greeted by Fred, George, and the rest of the Gryffindors. HARRY: Summer. Pudding smashed on the floor. Uncle Vernon, he locked my door. Summer. Spent it locked in my room. RON: Summer. Harry forgot his broom. FRED and GEORGE: Picked the lock; gave 'em a shock. Flew away in the summer night. WIZARDS: Wella-Wella- Wella- UH Tell me more, Tell me more didja get very far? WITCHES: Tell me more, Tell me more. How did you get that car? WITCHES:Uh-UH WIZARDS:Doo-Doo WITCHES:Uh-Uh WIZARDS:Doo-Doo WITCHES:Uh-Uh WIZARDS: Doo-Doo-Doo-Doo-Doo-Doo HARRY: King's Cross Station. We missed the gate. RON: King's Cross Station. A minute too late. HARRY: Hogwarts Express gone to the school. RON: Felt like nine-and-three-quarters kinds of fool. HARRY: Rubbed my scar, jumped in the car RON: And flew off in the summer night. WITCHES: Wella-Wella-Wella-UH Tell me more, Tell me more. Were you scared you'd be seen? WIZARDS: Tell me more, Tell me more 'bout that flying machine. WITCHES: Dum doobie doo doobie doo doobie doobie doobie dum WIZARDS:Uh Uh-Uh Uh-Uh Uh-Uh-Uh-Uh-Uh Uh HARRY: At first we were quite invisible. RON: When it failed we were so miserable. HARRY: Had to get there pretty soon; RON: Over the ground our parts would be strewn. HARRY AND RON: Should debark, 'twas getting quite dark as we flew in the summer night_______ WITCHES and WIZARDS: WOH-WOH-WOH WIZARDS: Tell me more, Tell me more. Hey you weren't at the Feast. HARRY and RON: Tell you what; of our troubles, that was the least. WITCHES and WIZARDS: Shuda Bop-Bop Shuda Bop-Bop Shuda Bop- Bop Shuda Bop-Bop Shuda Bop-Bop Shuda Bop-Bop Shuda Bop-Bop YAH RON: Listen up, you sure gotta know HARRY: How we were mauled by that Whomping Willow. RON: We were saved because of Dad's Ford. HARRY: Yeah, thank Merlin we were aboard. HARRY AND HERMIONE: We did cry, smote hip and thigh by that tree in the summer night_____ WITCHES and WIZARDS: WOH WOH WOH WITCHES: Tell me more, Tell me more did it all come to naught? WIZARDS: Tell me more, Tell me more how you finally were caught. WITCHES and WIZARDS: Hoo Hoo Hoo Hoo Hoo Hoo Hoo Hoo RON: At the Sorting was an empty chair; HARRY: So we wondered who should be there? RON: While we watched the Sorting Hat HARRY: Potions Master appeared-- just like that! HARRY and RON: In the end, Snape did apprehend us in EVERYONE: OH_ HARRY and RON: The su-hummer Ni-hight___________ WITCHES and WIZARDS: Tell me more, Tell me more________ (Harry and Ron concluded that, all considered, things could be worse.) -Haggridd From briony_coote at hotmail.com Tue Apr 8 23:20:06 2003 From: briony_coote at hotmail.com (Briony Coote) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 11:20:06 +1200 Subject: What house Peter was sorted into. Message-ID: <000501c2fe25$643f24a0$57a7a7cb@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 54961 There has been quite a bit of discussion as to which house Peter was put into. I find it quite extraordinary that he would be put in Gryffindor, since only the bravest and most chivalrous go there, and Peter is definitely neither. There is no doubting that Sirius and James are brave and chivalrous, so they must have been in Gryffindor, and Remus said he definitely was in Gryffindor. If Peter was sorted into Slytherin, it is unlikely that he could have become friends with Remus et., al, considering the track record between Slytherins and Gryffindors. Also, Slytherin is for the most ambitious, and Peter does not seem to be overtly so. It was lack of courage, not ambition (as far as I know) that made Peter turn to Voldemort - so he says, anyway. Peter definitely would not have been in Ravenclaw since he is not a bright spark. The only house I can think of is Hufflepuff. After all, Peter must have been patient to wait around as a rat for 12 years, and it would have required patience to learn the Animagus spell with his more-bright friends. Briony [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From annemehr at yahoo.com Tue Apr 8 23:52:50 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 23:52:50 -0000 Subject: Comments on several open subjects (re: Hagrid's wand, Pettigrew, Trelawny) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54962 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Marvolo Riddle" wrote: > Howdy, > I usually do more reading than poting, but I had a variety of > small comments to make on some of the discussions, so here > goes. > > 1. Hagrid Wand. I think it might be a mistake to assume that > Hagrid's wand was ever snapped in two. So far, the only proof > we have of this is Hagrid's word. It's possible that he had to lie > to Olivander (indeed, to everybody) in order to cover up the fact > the Dumbledore allowed him to keep his wand intact after he > was Expelled. Annemehr: Howdy yourself! :) But I'll have to disagree here -- it's not likely Hagrid's wand was saved from being snapped in two by Dumbledore, because Dumbledore was only the Transfiguration master at the time. Professor Dippet is the one who was in charge of Hagrid being expelled, and he would also be the one in charge of snapping the wand. As Hagrid was in fact expelled, I have to believe that the wand was duly snapped by the same authority. Tom Marvolo Riddle (Zach) continued: > I think it's also possible dumbledore transfigured > the wand into a pink umbrella just to hide it better. Annemehr: Now, this I might believe. It's a much better solution, if it still works, because if the wand is only hidden inside, someone might find it. But *would* the transfigured wand still work, or would it only be good for keeping the rain off? Zach again: > 3. Trelawny and her experience with these matters - I do think > there's more to this story than we know right now, but every time I > read that part, I get the sense that Trelawny is pulling a Lockhart, > rushing to Harry's aide acting like she knows everything without > any real idea what she's talking about. Annemehr: Ah! But that's obviously exactly what we're *meant* to think! > > Ah well, thanks for reading my misc. rantings. > > Zach (who can't really spell miscellanious) You're welcome -- it was fun! And I don't feel like looking "misc." up right now, but I wonder about that second "i"... Annemehr From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk Tue Apr 8 23:56:23 2003 From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 23:56:23 -0000 Subject: Alectryomancy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54963 I never post to this list, or at least I haven't in AGES, but...I thought about this in rereading PoA last night. When harry buys unfogging the future the manager mentions several of its chapters including methods of divination and...bird entrails! This just struck me as interesting because we know that the phoenix is obviously important to the plot (or at least enough so to have and order of something), and perhaps, just perhaps, fawkes could having something to do with all this and be useful in divination.( or any other phoenix) The process of alectryomancy is usually done with a cock, but who knows the possibilities with a phoenix. I'm not saying that fawkes's entrails are what "order of the phoenix" refers to (though that's certainly an interesting thought), but it does seem likely that some connection could be made... perhaps having to do with the first true prediction? hmmm... Scott Who uses ellipsis waaay too much and is now retreating back to the sunny land of lurkdom. Fair ye well! From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Wed Apr 9 00:09:40 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 00:09:40 -0000 Subject: What house Peter was sorted into. In-Reply-To: <000501c2fe25$643f24a0$57a7a7cb@oemcomputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54964 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Briony Coote" wrote: > There has been quite a bit of discussion as to which house Peter was put > into. I find it quite extraordinary that he would be put in Gryffindor, > since only the bravest and most chivalrous go there, and Peter is > definitely neither. There is no doubting that Sirius and James are > brave and chivalrous, so they must have been in Gryffindor, and Remus > said he definitely was in Gryffindor. If Peter was sorted into > Slytherin, it is unlikely that he could have become friends with Remus > et., al, considering the track record between Slytherins and > Gryffindors. Also, Slytherin is for the most ambitious, and Peter does > not seem to be overtly so. It was lack of courage, not ambition (as far > as I know) that made Peter turn to Voldemort - so he says, anyway. > Peter definitely would not have been in Ravenclaw since he is not a > bright spark. The only house I can think of is Hufflepuff. After all, > Peter must have been patient to wait around as a rat for 12 years, and > it would have required patience to learn the Animagus spell with his > more-bright friends. > > Briony > But the main Hufflepuff traits, according to the Sorting Hat, are diligence, loyalty and justice -- not patience. Pettigrew certainnly isn't loyal and just (we don't really have information on how diligent he is). I actually don't think Ravenclaw is ruled out - - Pettigrew never stuck me as particularly stupid -- but I remain conviced that he was a Griffindor. His problem, it seems to me, is not so much lack of courage as lack of moral strength. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From annemehr at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 00:14:25 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 00:14:25 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew's choice In-Reply-To: <005201c2fe0b$6cc461e0$6401a8c0@arvada1.co.home.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54965 Julie and finwitch, I think you two are arguing in circles because you are misunderstanding each other's points. finwitch (on Peter's betrayal):> Julie: Oh, I don't disagree that an explanation is offered: finwitch: Pettigrew himself, explaining: "He would've killed me! What was there to be gained by opposing him?" There. The rat. Survivor. Anything - anything at all, to stay alive. Julie: Just because Peter gave an explanation doesn't mean it's an acceptable one, though. Ultimately, we are responsible for our choices. Peter *chose* to do what he did. Annemehr: Both of you agree that Peter did not, all on his own, get the idea to join Voldemort and then seek him out. You both agree that *Voldemort* sought *Peter* out, and that Peter, out of fear, capitulated and joined him. finwitch is saying that the *explanation* for Peter working for Voldemort is that he chose to save his own life rather than refuse to betray his friends. Julie, I think what you mean is that capitulating because he was afraid is not a valid *excuse* for what Peter did. It is a valid *explanation*, though -- i.e. it's the reason for what happened. Annemehr donning referee's uniform ;) From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 01:23:49 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 18:23:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] What house Peter was sorted into. In-Reply-To: <000501c2fe25$643f24a0$57a7a7cb@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <20030409012349.64891.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54966 --- Briony wrote: > There has been quite a bit of discussion as to which house Peter was put > into. I find it quite extraordinary that he would be put in Gryffindor, > since only the bravest and most chivalrous go there, and Peter is > definitely neither. [snip] The only house I can think of is Hufflepuff. > After all, Peter must have been patient to wait around as a rat for 12 > years, and it would have required patience to learn the Animagus spell with > his more-bright friends. I have to disagree. Hufflepuff's defining traits, according to the Sorting Hat, are loyalty and working hard. I agree he had to work hard to manage the Animagus transformation, but I don't think he meets the loyalty qualification! I don't see why everyone is so convinced that Peter isn't a Gryffindor. "Their daring, nerve and chivalry set Gryffindors apart." Nowhere does the Hat ever say that Gryffindors have to have strong moral characters. "Daring" and "nerve", hm? Well, I think it takes a certain amount of sheer chutzpah to pull what Peter did on Sirius, and then live right under the nose of a Ministry of Magic worker for years on end. We don't know enough about Peter's past to judge his chivalry -- he might've been the most courtly man in existance. There are many different types of courage, and moral courage is only one of them. I don't see why Peter couldn't be a Gryffindor. Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com From debmclain at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 02:12:06 2003 From: debmclain at yahoo.com (Debbie) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 02:12:06 -0000 Subject: Fleur and Wands (was: 50 Questions..) In-Reply-To: <027501c2fdef$dc47cfa0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54967 "Katy Cartee" wrote: > SS pg. 81 US > "Just Ollivanders left now - only place fer wands, > Ollivanders, and yeh gotta have the best wand." > > Well that makes it sound as though Olivanders is the *only* place to buy wands. But obviously Durmstrang students don't travel to London to buy their school supplies. Me: My interpretation is that Hagrid thought Ollivander's was the best place to buy wands, hence being the "only" place. Just like some people think that Starbucks is the only place to buy coffee. -Debbie From urbana at charter.net Wed Apr 9 03:03:46 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 03:03:46 -0000 Subject: Dobby in Book 5 In-Reply-To: <184.1920b1e4.2bc48c56@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54968 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, kewiromeo at a... wrote: I think Dobby will come work > for the Dursleys. I mean why not? Dobby will find Harry laying in the > flowerbed, and the sign of a good house elf is that they aren't seen. > Me: Interesting idea, but I have extreme difficulty imagining the Dursleys allowing Dobby or any other magical creature (other than Harry, who they are *forced* (we don't yet know why) to shelter) to live in their home. So if Dobby does come to live at Number 4 Privet Drive it won't be at the invitation or with the forebearance of the Dursleys... though I suppose Harry could find some way to hide Dobby in the basement?... or perhaps under that loose stair that creaks whenever someone steps on it.... Anne U (June 21st still seems soooo far away....) From imhotep1 at rcn.com Wed Apr 9 03:14:24 2003 From: imhotep1 at rcn.com (imhotep1) Date: 08 Apr 2003 20:14:24 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fleur and Wands (was: 50 Questions..) In-Reply-To: <027501c2fdef$dc47cfa0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> References: <027501c2fdef$dc47cfa0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> Message-ID: <1049858069.4158.12.camel@princess> No: HPFGUIDX 54969 On Tue, 2003-04-08 at 09:56, Katy Cartee wrote: > SS pg. 81 US > "Just Ollivanders left now - only place fer wands, > Ollivanders, and yeh gotta have the best wand." > > Well that makes it sound as though Olivanders is the *only* place to buy wands. But obviously Durmstrang students don't travel to London to buy their school supplies. This is further proven by the following quote: > > SS pg. 84 US > "Every Ollivander wand has a core of a powerful magical > substance, Mr. Potter. We use unicorn hairs, phoenix tail > feathers, and the heartstrings of dragons." > > So Ollivander only uses those three items as wand cores. But apparently other people/shops use other ingredients - such as the Veela hair in Fleur's wand. Apparently Hagrid was just sharing his biased opinion that Ollivanders is the BEST wand shop. But i do wonder why Hagrid said "yeh gotta have the best wand"...as if there are different degrees of good, better and best wands. If it were me walking into the shop, i guess i'd be praying that a cheap wand "chose" me ;) I had been thinking about this myself, and I think you can probably buy imported (from other Wizarding countries) wands in smaller shops in Diagon Alley, and maybe even ones with specialty cores different than Ollivander's. Maybe there are even dark-art oriented wands that you can pick up down on Knockturn Alley. -Jeremy From imhotep1 at rcn.com Wed Apr 9 03:25:09 2003 From: imhotep1 at rcn.com (imhotep1) Date: 08 Apr 2003 20:25:09 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pettigrew in Gryffindor? (was: Tom-Harry-Choices / Wand-Transformation / Questions / Wzdg) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1049858710.4158.20.camel@princess> No: HPFGUIDX 54970 On Tue, 2003-04-08 at 12:05, finwitch wrote: > I agree that PP was Gryffindor. Hufflepuff is no no for this lazy > traitor. He isn't bright enough for Ravenclaw... > > What comes to Slytherin, PP isn't able to make much decisions for > himself, unless it's about survival or dying. He has the > characteristics of a servant, and Slytherin character is leading - to > command if not always with responsibility to others. I think a lot of people are judging Slytherin personality traits by the example of Tom Riddle and Malfoy, but Crabbe and Goyle are also in Slytherin, and they are remarkably pathetic individuals. Now, mind you, I think all of MWPP, including PP were Gryffindor, because it just makes sense. If they were in opposing houses they would be competing all the time, opposing each other for things like the house cup, the Quidditch cup (even if only James played, I'm sure the others rooted) For them to be tight knit as they were, it makes the most sense for them to all be in the same house. But, that said, that doesn't mean they couldn't have been in different houses, and if PP were a Slytherin, I don't think that would be a too unreasonable assumption. -Jeremy From cantor at vgernet.net Wed Apr 9 03:36:50 2003 From: cantor at vgernet.net (cantoramy) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 03:36:50 -0000 Subject: Fleur and Wands (was: 50 Questions..) In-Reply-To: <027501c2fdef$dc47cfa0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54971 Let us not forget that Fred and George made some pretty authentic- looking and acting fake wands. One even helped their mom make dinner until it turned into a rubber mouse (GoF US ed. p. 59). I wonder what they used as a core? cantoramy From oppen at mycns.net Wed Apr 9 03:57:32 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 22:57:32 -0500 Subject: What if Harry levelled with Professor Trelawney? Message-ID: <01af01c2fe4c$26e7f2e0$e4510043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 54972 While I can understand why Harry doesn't think much of Professor Trelawney, I do wonder what would have happened if he had levelled with her about that dream he had in class---or the other dreams he's had involving Lord V? Granted, she may come across as a "right old fraud," but she's also apparently good enough at her job to stay on at Hogwarts, and that has to count for something. A lot of Hogwarts faculty are at or near the tops of their specialities---Professor McGonagall's an Animagus, which is _rare_ even among magical folk and about the ultimate in Transfiguration, which she teaches; Professor Snape's love of his subject and deep knowledge of it shines through his scenes, and we have Professor Dumbledore's own word that Divination is Not Easy At All. I think Professor Trelawney's there more to expose pupils to the various tools of Divination, and see if any of them do have the Sight---and that she's not nearly as much of a New Age space-case as she lets on, any more than Dumbledore is really just a nice, slightly dotty old man. One of my own favorite theories is that Professor Trelawney is actually a DE mole, under orders to keep an eye on things at Hogwarts and otherwise keep a low profile. What better cover, after all, than as a dippy old bat who makes phony predictions constantly? Nobody takes her seriously, and that's often a great asset to a spy. Even if Professor Snape _wanted_ to do that (assuming that Snape is Ever So Evil after all) his sinister manner and his known background as a DE would preclude him from doing much good. And we've seen a deal before, in PS/SS, where the real bad guy was the last person anybody would suspect..."Who would believe p-p-poor, stut-t-tering Professor Quirrel was the one?" From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 04:01:00 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 21:01:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pettigrew in Gryffindor? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030409040100.60816.qmail@web21001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54973 Pippin wrote:I'll probably get jumped on for this, but I see some similarities between Peter and Hermione. They're both clever, secretive, and not at their best facing an attack. Peter may not be bookish (fortunately for him -- I think the worst thing about spending twelve years as a rat would be having nothing to read) but he has a logical turn of mind. Consider all the desperate rationalizing he does in the Shrieking Shack. ME: OK Pipin. I'll jump on you. Actually it is a very good post and I basically agree with you. Except for the comment about him being similar to Hermonie. You see, Pettigrew ISN'T very clever at all. He makes a good leach hooking on to people who are cleverer then he is while Hermonie has a strong independent streak. But really, allowing Voldmort to get his claws on him and then betraying his friends was not clever. Having to live 12 years as a rat (he couldn't come up with a better plan???) wasn't clever. It was a coward's solution. Dig a whole and stay covered. It was not a clever solution. Now he is a scorned toddy for Voldmort who knows exactly what he is and has no respect for him. Again, not clever. He is reasonably intelligent alright. He learned to become an animage which is extremely difficult (even with a lot of help which he had I assume it is still a difficult skill indeed) but one thing he is not, that's clever. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catlady at wicca.net Wed Apr 9 04:32:10 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 04:32:10 -0000 Subject: Muggle clothing/Animagery/Lupin's income/schooling/Sorting Neville Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54974 Elisabeth, a rude mechanical, wrote: << On a side note, why is it that none (well, so few) of the adult wizards and witches are able to dress in proper muggle clothing, but their children manage it without difficulty?? >> Many of the pureblood kids, who were raised without contact with the Muggle world (as per Gina Rosich's reply to Barb Goalieracer), probably don't even know that the styles they wear are Muggle styles; they just know that this is the 'cool' style among their friends (from whom they learned how to wear it). My theory as to why Muggle clothing became 'cool' among this generation of kids is that there are many more Muggle-born kids in the wizarding generation born in the 1970s than in most wizarding generations, because of my theory of the inheritance of magic (see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/41509 ). Another theory is that when Voldemort was defeated (by Harry in 1981), wizarding folk were eager to show that they had been in opposition to Voldemort by making a big deal of being friendly to Muggles, which is how the young children learned about Muggle clothes. Finwitch wrote: << I don't discount the possibility of taking many forms, even one of choice, but so far there's nothing to say that even the first form can be chosen by the wizard. >> JKR has confirmed in interviews that the Animagus doesn't get to choose his/her animal form, but instead the animal form is a reflection of his/her personality. http://www.geocities.com/aberforths_goat/October_2000_Live_Chat_Americ a_Online.htm Q: Does the animal one turns into as an Animagi reflect your personality? JKR: Very well deduced, Narri! I personally would like to think that I would transform into an otter, which is my favorite animal. Imagine how horrible it would be if I turned out to be a cockroach! http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript2.htm Q: If you were Animagus, what kind of animal would you be? A: I'd like to be an otter -- that's my favourite animal. It would be depressing if I turned out to be a slug or something. I want to know, what happens if a person who has become an Animagus goes over the whole training again, from scratch, will heesh get another animal form, as in Briony's Polymagus theory? Can a person who is a werewolf become an Animagus? with an animal form other than wolf? Can a werewolf who is an Animagus with an animal form other than wolf avoid turning into a wolf monster at Full Moon by turning into hiser animal before the moment? Oryomai wrote: << 2. How has Lupin managed to live if he can't get a paying job? >> Not very well, judging from his shabby robes and scrawny appearance when we first see him in PoA. He might have a small inheritance or get hand-outs from his (still-alive) parents (whom I believe to have retired to a small village in Grevenna nomos of Macedonia of Greece). The British Ministry of Magic might give a stipend to 1) every adult wizard (my theory), 2) every wizard with no other means of support, 3) werewolves who promise to stay out of the country, 4) all werewolves (the Werewolf Support Services unit of the Beings division of the Magical Creatures department should do SOMETHING). He might make and sell things (maybe free-lance writing rather than handicrafts). In my fanfic, when he left Hogwarts, Dumbledore got him a grant to prepare an updated edition of an old scholarly book. Barb goalieracer wrote: << There has to be some type of uniform schooling for the WW...either through Muggle Schools(ie Harry)or Tutors(Malfoy's). And to get uniform schooling, the Tutors or parents who educate their children need to have the same standards. >> Just because modern Muggle countries believe in uniform standards for children's education doesn't mean that wizarding folk believe that they need uniform standard for their children's education. Some readers think that Stan Shunpike and the young man who washes dishes at the Leaky Cauldron never got any schooling and don't even know how to read. Finwitch wrote: << So, maybe the hat had a *chat* with Neville, tried to comfort him about his parents... I think the sorting hat liked him and would have liked to stay - it probably just talked nice until Neville asked it to sort him... >> I personally think that the Sorting Hat very quickly decided to put Neville into Gryffindor, but Neville argued against it, claiming that the Hat had made a mistake, confused him with his father, claiming that he had so little ability that he couldn't possibly go anywhere better than Hufflepuff, and it took a while for the Hat to talk him into it. From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Wed Apr 9 05:51:33 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 05:51:33 -0000 Subject: The Prince of Darkness (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54975 The Prince of Darkness To the tune of The Prince of Humbug, from Barnum NOTE: No MIDI or audio clips that I can find. The tune is very fast and circus-y (think Nina Rota) with lots of trombone glissandi THE SCENE: Undisclosed. Enter LORD VOLDEMORT VOLDEMORT: The Prince of Darkness, dust and ash Riddle battle, Sybill's gloss Goblet's goblin, party boss Erlking and incubus And vogue rogue I am! The scourge of Hogwarts, Tommy's son Glibber fibber, demonic Nihilist so sardonic Swastika, Caligula Ooh la la C'est moi! Cloven hoof and sulfur smells World embroiled, lawless spells Empire of Evil strolls Thanks to me, damn your souls! The Prince of Darkness, run amok Bleak and barren, desert waste Hubris toward the human race Shock and awe and mock of law That's me! In a world of grief and greed some wizards have goals To improve our dismal lot both body and soul With a strength as bright as day and bold as can be Someone's got to shut them down All their good will run aground Tell ya who that someone's got to be .. The Prince of Darkness, Parseltongue Payback, blowback, guttersnipe Blister, boggart, utter blight A First Strike and the Third Reich One who killed Diggory I am! And damn, I'll always be! YEAH! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 07:34:34 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 07:34:34 -0000 Subject: Comments- open subjects (re: Hagrid's wand, ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54976 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Marvolo Riddle" > wrote: > > ...edited... > > > > 1. Hagrid Wand. I think it might be a mistake to assume that > > Hagrid's wand was ever snapped in two. ...edited... > > Annemehr: > Howdy yourself! :) > > ... it's not likely Hagrid's wand was saved from being snapped .... > Professor Dippet is the one who was in charge of Hagrid being > expelled, and he would ... be ... snapping the wand. > bboy_mn: I see two possibilities here regarding Hagrid's Wand. First, Annemehr's point is valid; Dippet was headmaster and he officiated Hagrid's expulsion. So I feel there was definitely A wand snapped but it's not clear that THE wand was snapped. One possibility is that Dumbledore gave Hagrid a substitute, and it was the substitute wand that was snapped. Now Hagrid's original wand is hidden inside his umbrella. The other possibility is that Hagrid's wand was snapped and repaired, or piece together sufficiently tight inside the umbrella as to make it usable. I lean more toward repaired, but I think the book hints more toward the pieces being fitted together tightly but still broken. Personally, I don't see repairing a wand as that hard a thing to do. I mean, if you can turn a hedge hog into a pin cushion, or a turtle into a tea kettle, how hard could it be to fuse a couple of pieces of wood together? It may not have been as good as new, but I believe it could be made reasonably functional again. In fan fiction, all kinds of things are repaired with the flick of a wand. Again, fan fiction isn't canon, but their collective references represent a large body of opinions regarding how the extended wizard world works. Regarding Ron's wand, first he did a really crappy job of repairing it. Ron, I've got one word for you... GLUE! Since he did a crappy job of repairing it, it worked crappy. And we must note that it wasn't non-functional, it was just very unpredictable. I always regarded Ron's wand as one of the 'life lessons' that the Professors like to teach. I'm sure it could have been reasonably repaired if Ron had only take the initiative to go to someone and ask them for help. Same for Ron's crappy dress robes, if he had gone to someone and asked for help, they could have probably been improved. Back to Hagrid. Hargid's magic isn't all that reliable, plus he initially is restricted from doing magic. On top of that, he was kick out of school so what he does know, he picked up on his own. So, I guess the point here is that Hagrid's wand has never had to strain itself magically. As I said before, the book seems to want us to believe that the still broken pieces are in the umbrella, but give all that magic can do, I have to believe that it can fuse a couple pieces of wood, so my opinion is that his less than 100% functional but repaired wand is in the umbrella. I guess only time will tell us for sure. > Tom Marvolo Riddle (Zach) continued: > > > I think it's also possible dumbledore transfigured > > the wand into a pink umbrella just to hide it better. > > Annemehr: > Now, this I might believe. It's a much better solution, > bboy_mn: Let's look at magic fiction in general, wizards and witches of all fictional forms all seem to have some magical or enchanted object that they use to focus their magic when casting spells, charms, and/or curses. Lord of the Rings and many other wizards use a staff, the wizard's wand of course is extremely common, less common are talisman, charms (physical charms like medalions), magic gems, or other magic objects. So the point is that an enchanted umbrella could in itself be used and a device to focus magic. It need not have a broken wand in it. And the possibility of tranforming the wand into an umbrella is just as possible. So I'm in agreement, that could very well be what happened. Although, personally, I lean more toward the repaired wand. Hopefully, before Hagrid dies, we will find out. > Zach again: > > > 3. Trelawny and her experience with these matters - I do think > > there's more to this story than we know right now, but every > > time I read that part, I get the sense that Trelawny is pulling > > a Lockhart, rushing to Harry's aide acting like she knows > > everything without any real idea what she's talking about. > > > Annemehr: > Ah! But that's obviously exactly what we're *meant* to think! > > ...edited... > > Annemehr bboy_mn: The problem I have with this scene is that we only know what Harry thought. I would like to know what Ron saw and thought. I would like to know what Trelawney saw and thought. We see Harry's dream but we don't see Harry. Trelawney seems to instant recognise that Harry is having some type of psychic experience because the first thing she asks him is if it is a premonition, an apparition, and what he is 'seeing'. Based on this, I still take the position that when she mentions her experience, she is speaking of pschic events in general and not specifically cursed scars. I'm sure to Trelawney, this was like Christmas come early, but Harry grinched* out and denied her this special treat. (*grinched - a reference to Dr. Seuss's 'Grinch Who Stole Christmas;) Just a thought. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 07:58:53 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 07:58:53 -0000 Subject: Dobby in Book 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54977 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Anne" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, kewiromeo at a... wrote: > > I think Dobby will come work for the Dursleys. > > Me: (Anne) > Interesting idea, but I have extreme difficulty imagining the > Dursleys allowing Dobby or any other magical creature (other than > Harry, who they are *forced* (we don't yet know why) to shelter) to > live in their home. ...edited... > > Anne U > (June 21st still seems soooo far away....) bboy_mn: The only way I could see this happening is if Dumbledore asked Dobby to accompany Harry home to the Dursleys to help protect him over the summer. We know Elves are powerfully magic creatures, but they restrain their magic, and will only use it at the request or for the benefit of their masters. Dumbledore's orders to protect Harry would certainly fit that framework. If this happens, I see it happening at the end of the book during the summer between book 5 and 6. By then, events may have occurred to make the Dursleys painfully aware that there is a war going on in the wizard world, and under those circumstances they might reluctatly allow Dobby to come. When Petunia sees how spotless an elf can keep her house, I think she will be please. When Vernon sees all the great food that Dobby can cook, he will be please. Unfortunately, the presence of all the great food will be a living hell for fat Dudley who's diet I suspect is not going very well. However, Dudley's diet could be helped along if Dobby were to conjure a portion of Dudley's food. Conjured items are not permanent, so the food would vanish before Dudley had a chance to digest it. Most unfortunaly, although Dudley would lose weight, he would learn nothing about self-restaint and good eating habits. As an additional note, I think the two most important and most significant background characters in this series are going to be Dobby and Neville. I expect very great things from both of them. I wouldn't be surprised if one or both of them are instrumental in bring down Voldemort. Just a thought. bboy_mn From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 08:37:33 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 08:37:33 -0000 Subject: What if Harry levelled with Professor Trelawney? In-Reply-To: <01af01c2fe4c$26e7f2e0$e4510043@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54978 "Eric Oppen" wrote: While I can understand why Harry doesn't think much of Professor Trelawney,I do wonder what would have happened if he had levelled with her about that dream he had in class---or the other dreams he's had involving Lord V? =================================================================== Hello all, Fred Waldrop here. I think that if Harry had told Professor Trelawney that he was dreaming of Lord V, she would have responded the same way she did in POA, page 324 & 325, US. "...Professor Trelwney's head snapped up again. I'm so sorry, dear boy... I drifted off for a moment... Harry sat there, staring at her. Is there anything wrong, my dear? You - you told me that the - the Dark Lord's going to rise again... that his servant's going to go back to him... Professor Trelawney looked thoroughly startled. The Dark Lord? He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named? My dear boy, that's hardly something to joke about... Rise again, indeed I would certainly not predict anything quite as far fetched as that." She would say he should not joke about such things or just say that the dream meant nothing. And she most probably would have gotten mad at Harry for telling such rubbish that she would have given out extra homework. Fred From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Wed Apr 9 07:12:36 2003 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 07:12:36 -0000 Subject: Education before Hogwarts? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54979 Barb wrote: The Wizarding community would not have an exempion to this..as they > are still living in the Muggle world. They would have to have proof > that the children are being educated properly. I have no idea how the British system works, but some parents in the States have been gravitating towards home-schooling their children. It's very possible that if the Malfoys had a tutor, the Weasleys were home-schooled. They would then be able to answer to any authorities they needed to. A collective home-school may even have been set up in neighborhoods where several wizarding families were living. It seems like the wizard-born students don't go to (Muggle) public school, because they don't seem to know much about how Muggles do things. (Remember Ron trying to call Harry on the phone?) imamommy From weeoo0 at yahoo.ca Wed Apr 9 06:19:55 2003 From: weeoo0 at yahoo.ca (weeoo0) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 06:19:55 -0000 Subject: Harry's patronus, how many are there? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54980 I've been wondering, what form did Harry's patronus take at the ravenclaw quidditch match in PoA? i was doing some rereading, and the passage where DD says "And then I remembered the most unusual form your patronus took, when it charged Mr Malfoy down at your quidditch match against Ravenclaw. So you did see your father last night Harry ... you found him inside yourself" (PoA pg. 312 Can ed.) now, I had always read that passage without to much thought, assuming, that remembering harry's patronus, after learning of James being an animagus, DD put 2 and 2 together. Now however, I see it differently. DD is remarking on how Harry found his father inside himself, thus the prongs patronus. and to me this suggests that this patronus is different than whatever Harry produced during quidditch. If Harry produced the prongs patronus that fateful night with the dementors, and that is when Harry discovered his 'inner father' as i refer to it, then I ask, what was his patronus before? just some random thoughts. Weeoo0 From hieya at hotmail.com Wed Apr 9 05:27:25 2003 From: hieya at hotmail.com (greatlit2003) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 05:27:25 -0000 Subject: Command of the Phoenix? In-Reply-To: <006301c2fe1a$48222fc0$ee909fc1@bockerma> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54981 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, m.bockermann at t... wrote: > > > > Similiarily, the help from a society named Order of the Phoenix would draw attention away from Harry and bereft him of his position in the story, that of the hero. We want to see Harry to succeed, not see him join a group of people who will do his battles for him. Unless that group can teach him something very special, they might be beneficial to him as a person, but it will *not* be beneficial to the overall story. > Thanks for bringing up some interesting arguments. I agree with you that Harry will need a special space in the war against Voldemort. However, I think these books are moving away from being solely about Harry. We know that many people's lives have been affected by Voldemort, and I think JKR will give many of the principal victims (ex. Neville) a chance to join the battle as well. Also, I think it is important to remember that every time Harry has faced mortal danger, someone has helped him get out of the situation alive. Harry cannot do this alone. Harry has never done things alone, and I see no reason for him to do so in the future. The end of GoF was all about teamwork and trust. In fact, one of the biggest differences between the good and bad sides in this story is that Dumbledore and his crew rely on teamwork (where everyone is treated somewhat equally), while Voldemort prefers to act alone, with some followers assisting him. From goalieracer at yahoo.com Tue Apr 8 21:38:08 2003 From: goalieracer at yahoo.com (goalieracer) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 21:38:08 -0000 Subject: Education before Hogwarts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54982 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "finwitch" wrote: > Finwitch > Somehow, but no law says they must attend a school, even though > that's most common manner to achieve the education. The children can > i.e. take exams during vacations to show the amount of their > education me: No, but there is a law that requires children to get an education, whether it is in school,a tutor or homeschool.Granted not everyone obeys it...but if you are caught..there can be serious consequences. Finwitch > Hermione, for one, may have taken all possible Muggle exams, which > she couldn't do if she'd had have to attend a Muggle school, so > there's even a good *reason* for her to study on her own, because she learns *more* that way. me: True, but someone has to teach you to read before you can study on your own. That is not an easy thing to do.I have seen parents try to homeschool with disasterous results.Once you learn the basics from a qualified person/people you can do better. I agree that if you have the self discipline to make yourself study...like Hermione...I think you can learn more. But how many children have that self discipline? Barb From moonfleet24 at hotmail.com Tue Apr 8 22:16:29 2003 From: moonfleet24 at hotmail.com (Lindy Brett) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 22:16:29 +0000 Subject: What do wizards do? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54983 Regarding the 'What Do Wizards Do?' thread a little while back [and please bear in mind that I am new here, I've been lurking, hiding overawed, its a h-uge list, the archives are humoungous . . . - so you have probably discussed this one ad infinitum too, but I didn't notice - anyway . . . ] Why do wizards do anything? Magic does the washing up, the knitting, the travelling, . . . Snape waves a wand to clear up a mess, in one place, then in another he has Harry swab the place down by hand. One can see why he did that (Harry is so irritating), but the point is that cleaning up can be accomplished by a wand-wave. Cleaning is a cruel and unusual punishment for magic folk. They have sort of unexpected extras like chasing gnomes out of the gardens, but they don't have to do the stuff muggles have to do. Dumbledore can 'draw up' a chair. No need for chair makers then. Can he 'draw up' a carpet? A painting? The food. Do the house-elves cook it? Or magic it up? The wizzes and witches put no effort in. Farming - why would a wizard plod around after cows or sheep? Doesn't he just sit on his rocking chair and wave his wand at the poor dawg? Travelling. Its a good job they can't all apparate. All of the realities of our world collapse when you get instant travel. You don't have to live near your work - just apparate (and no penalties to using magic in JKR's world, no magical bounceback as in The Worst Witch or Discworld). Taking the kiddies to school? Why send them by antiquated train? Except that it's romantic? I find the use of magic in Hogwarts an endless puzzle. It can do some things, and not others. Such detail, but what about sewers? So: can magic do everything? The jobs that are described are teaching, civil service, shopkeeping, and sport. No artists are mentioned (ideal occupation once the cleaning is taken care of), though there are musicians. Sorry - a slightly grumpy ramble. What I am saying is, when magic does so much, why bother to go to work, why get up in the morning? Lindy _________________________________________________________________ Get Hotmail on your mobile phone http://www.msn.co.uk/mobile From devonturcotte at yahoo.ca Tue Apr 8 23:02:25 2003 From: devonturcotte at yahoo.ca (devonturcotte) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 23:02:25 -0000 Subject: Professor Trelawney's "experience" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54984 For me, I just always took Trelawney's statement as meaning she has experience in "seeing." She can see that Harry is obviously having some kind of vision that ends in him clutching his scar. I don't think it goes any deeper than that. I don't know that anyone knows anything about a curse scar like Harry's. No one's ever had one before. On the topic of Trelawney and Harry, I wanted to point something out, and I apologize if it's been brought up before. I didn't find it in the HB or the VFAQ...as far as I could see. Has anyone else noticed that Harry's predictions are always right? At the end of PS (or SS for our American friends), Quirrell demands that Harry tell him what is in the Mirror of Erised, and Harry says that he's shaking hands with Dumbledore because he's won the house cup for Gryffindor. Well, he basically did (between Ron, Hermione, Neville and himself). And another example is his final for Trelawney at the end of PoA. He makes up his prediction that Buckbeak will go free, and Buckbeak *does* go free. I believe there are other examples when Harry and Ron are doing their homework (but I can't remember them right now!). I wonder if this points to Harry's possible future as and Auror or even a true Seer? devonturcotte From briony_coote at hotmail.com Tue Apr 8 23:20:09 2003 From: briony_coote at hotmail.com (Briony Coote) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 11:20:09 +1200 Subject: Query about Neville Message-ID: <000a01c2fe25$65b80900$57a7a7cb@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 54985 I keep wondering as to why Neville was sorted into Gryffindor. Since herbology is his best subject, he would be more suited for Hufflepuff. Is there some potential about Neville that the Sorting Hat picked up, but Neville hasn't found yet? If so, the most likely reason is that he doesn't believe in himself. But we have seen sparks of his potential. Remember the courage he found in standing up to HRH, and won 10 points for Gryffindor? Or the time he fought the Boggart? The first time he was extremely scared, but when he found that he was successful, and had a good laugh in putting Snape in drag, he came up very determinably for the second time. Briony [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 09:30:01 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 09:30:01 -0000 Subject: Dobby in Book 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54986 "Steve" wrote: As an additional note, I think the two most important and most significant background characters in this series are going to be Dobby and Neville. I expect very great things from both of them. I wouldn't be surprised if one or both of them are instrumental in bring down Voldemort. Just a thought. bboy_mn ===================================================================== Hello all, Fred Waldrop here Earlier my wife and I were discussing this very thing. And I told her that I could see Neville standing on the street curb, everyone looking at him while he is facing V. He is trembling from head to foot, and everyone thinks he will be killed. Instead of being killed, he brings his wand up, and with a force as strong as PP, When he blew up the street, when Sirius had him cornered. He compleatly distroys V and all his DE that are with him. I also think Dobby will be a major character in the remaining books, unless he gets killed trying to protect Harry. I say this because, I think Dobby is willing to die to make sure Harry lives. Fred Just a few thoughts From weeoo0 at yahoo.ca Wed Apr 9 03:07:48 2003 From: weeoo0 at yahoo.ca (weeoo0) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 03:07:48 -0000 Subject: Omniscient Dumbledore and the time paradox Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54987 First off, I apologize if this posts twice, I have been having some difficulties with my email logging out. Well, I have been re-reading PoA again, paying special attention to the ending, trying to resolve in my mind the "time paradox" by thinking about it more linearly, as was suggested when this topic was dicussed a few weeks ago. However, one point of interest which stuck out in my mind was that when Dumbledore is talking with HH right before they use the time turner he says "If all goes well, you will be able to save more than one innocent life tonight" (PB, pg. 288 can ed.) now, thinking along a linear timeline, by this point in the timeline, HH2 would have already rescued Buckbeak (the other innocent life they were to save)and would have done so without being seen. Dumbledore bought HH a little extra time when they are first rescuing Buckbeak by reminding Macnair he has to sign the execution notice, whether he does this by coincidence, or by possibly having seen Harry struggling with buckbeak, or maybe he just *knows* So i am wondering, how omniscent is Dumbledore? He tells HH they can save another innocent life referring to buckbeak, when, using a linear timeline, buckbeak has already been saved. I realize this has already been discussed ad nauseum on this list, but it's been bugging me. thought? Weeoo0 From t.forch at mail.dk Wed Apr 9 09:44:30 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 11:44:30 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Omniscient Dumbledore and the time paradox In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030409114110.00ce77c0@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 54988 At 03:07 09-04-03 +0000, weeoo0 wrote: >He tells HH they can save another innocent life >referring to buckbeak, when, using a linear timeline, >buckbeak has already been saved. Dumbledore at this point /knows/ that Buckbeak was saved, yes. He has no way of knowing if it way Harry and Hermione (or does he?) He has certainly no way of knowing if they will be successfull in saving Black. At this point, to Dumbledore, Black could easily be the 'more than one' life they might save. Troels From peabwain at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 02:20:40 2003 From: peabwain at yahoo.com (peabwain) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 02:20:40 -0000 Subject: one more death question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54989 I am fairly new to this list, and I am only on my second reading of GoF. I don't know if this has been discussed to death. If it has you could just give me the message number. But I was wondering a few things: Who is Voldemort talking about when he says, "one more death and our path to Harry Potter is clear"? (US paperback GoF pg 10) Why can't Voldemort commit the murder himself? He was able to kill Bertha Jorkins and Frank Bryce. I assumed it was Crouch Sr. & Voldemort could not do it because Crouch is a more powerful wizard than he was at the time, but didn't Voldemort need Crouch so the ministry would not become suspicious? Crouch only died because he escaped & Voldemort was afraid he would tell Dumbledore everything. Or maybe he was talking about Crouch the whole time he just had to do it a little sooner than was planned because he escaped. I know at the end of GoF Dumbledore says that Voldemort killed Cedric when we know that Wormtail actually did it as Finwich pointed out in the Graveyard Scene post on March 27. It's not a lie; it just shows something about commands: It's the one giving command who's *doing* it, the one obeying is just a tool. Is this what happened with Bertha too. Voldemort is taking credit because he told Wormtail to do it? Can Voldemort only kill muggles because they are too weak (magically) to fight back? (Eww. That's kind of like killing kittens don't you think?) Or have I completely missed the Hogwarts Express and Voldemort is talking about the real Mad-Eye Moody. But even then doesn't Moody need to remain alive in order for the Polyjuice Potion to work? So there you go. Welcome to my head. You're welcome to stay, but please follow the rules. "peabwain" From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Wed Apr 9 05:53:01 2003 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 05:53:01 -0000 Subject: Charlie's old wand Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54990 I have a quick theory on Charlie getting a new wand. In canon, there are several references to wands being suited to different kinds of spells. {Example: I think Ollivander states that Lily's wand was good for charm work, and that James' wand was better for transfiguration. (go figure)} Would it make sense for Charlie to get a new wand because he was going to work with dragons and there was a better wand for that type of work? I also want to say that I like the idea of Charlie being benevolent enough to offer Ron his old wand in a way that wouldn't embarrass his parents. It's also possible that it was in some way expected of him to get his own wand when he was older. (Sort of like the way parents will keep one car for their teenagers to drive, and eventually the car gets handed down to the next kid.) Also, I don't think Mrs. Weasley would let anything go to waste. I know families with eight kids, and they make use of every available resource. Whatever the reason, it's not surprising that they would reuse the wand. I don't think it states in canon whether or not Ginny had a new wand. I'm inclined to think she would have had a new one because she may not have been compatible with one of the boys wands, being female, but I suppose she could have. I think Rowling doesn't mention it because it's not important to the story. Knowing that everything Ron had was second-hand was an important key to his character and to getting the know the Weasley's in general. She sets up for us how Ron feels about his place in the family. But that's a whole 'nother post. imamommy PS-please noone lecture me about my use of plurals and possessives, if they are wrong. From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Wed Apr 9 06:51:04 2003 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 06:51:04 -0000 Subject: Dementors and Depression Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54991 Also, Remus told the DADA class that although Muggles cannot see dementors, they can feel them. Are there any examples of how Muggles feel them or where they feel them? ===== Oryomai I of course don't have the link for this, but didn't Rowling say that she based the dementors on her experience with depression? That would explain to me how Muggles feel them. It would pretty much be like a wizard, but without knowing why. I also have the feeling that Muggles would actually be weaker against them. I'm not sure why, but that's the feeling I get. imamommy (who uses chocolate to survive her dementors) From rfa82 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 09:49:41 2003 From: rfa82 at yahoo.com (rfa82) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 09:49:41 -0000 Subject: What do wizards do? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54992 Lindy Brett wrote: > Why do wizards do anything? Magic does the washing up, the knitting, the > travelling, . . . > Sorry - a slightly grumpy ramble. What I am saying is, when magic does so > much, why bother to go to work, why get up in the morning? Rune writes: I think the reason might be that doing anything at all is tradition. After all, the WW and muggle world was integrated some five hundred years ago, and at that time the common witch or wizard had to do some chores themselves, or else they'd be exposed as being witches or wizards. So they have just kept on doing some things, even though things look very different at present times. Of course, many normal muggle jobs would be unnecessary in the WW. But that doesn't mean there aren't things that need a human touch to work. The MoM is of course an excellent example. By the way: I'm new. And please excuse my crude English as it's not my mother tongue. Rune From t.forch at mail.dk Wed Apr 9 10:22:16 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 12:22:16 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What do wizards do? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030409121828.00d1ea50@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 54993 At 22:16 08-04-03 +0000, Lindy Brett wrote: >Why do wizards do anything? Magic does the washing up, the knitting, the >travelling, . . . [...] >Sorry - a slightly grumpy ramble. What I am saying is, when magic does so >much, why bother to go to work, why get up in the morning? Food, among other things Q: It seems that the wizards and witches at Hogwarts are able to conjure up many things, such as food for the feasts, chairs and sleeping bags ... if this is so, why does the wizarding world need money ? What are the limitations on the material objects you can conjure up ? It seems unnecessary that the Weasleys would be in such need of money. . . (Jan Campbell) A: Very good question (well done, Jan!!). There is legislation about what you can conjure and what you can't. Something that you conjure out of thin air will not last. This is a rule I set down for myself early on. I love these logical questions! from Troels From trinity61us at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 10:15:28 2003 From: trinity61us at yahoo.com (alex fox) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 03:15:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] What if Harry levelled with Professor Trelawney? In-Reply-To: <01af01c2fe4c$26e7f2e0$e4510043@hppav> Message-ID: <20030409101528.88165.qmail@web14910.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54994 Wow! Very interesting concept! In Fanon she is always an idiot also. But I don't think I have ever read one where she might be getting things right!!! If he HAD leveled with her maybe she could have used some of the things that she actually DOES know to help! Dumbldore himself said that the has had 2 proper visions! This is quite the conundrum! Harry might have gotten some help from an unlikely sourse! Any input on this? Alex Fox Eric Oppen wrote: While I can understand why Harry doesn't think much of Professor Trelawney, I do wonder what would have happened if he had levelled with her about that dream he had in class---or the other dreams he's had involving Lord V? Granted, she may come across as a "right old fraud," but she's also apparently good enough at her job to stay on at Hogwarts, and that has to count for something. A lot of Hogwarts faculty are at or near the tops of their specialities---Professor McGonagall's an Animagus, which is _rare_ even among magical folk and about the ultimate in Transfiguration, which she teaches; Professor Snape's love of his subject and deep knowledge of it shines through his scenes, and we have Professor Dumbledore's own word that Divination is Not Easy At All. I think Professor Trelawney's there more to expose pupils to the various tools of Divination, and see if any of them do have the Sight---and that she's not nearly as much of a New Age space-case as she lets on, any more than Dumbledore is really just a nice, slightly dotty old man. One of my own favorite theories is that Professor Trelawney is actually a DE mole, under orders to keep an eye on things at Hogwarts and otherwise keep a low profile. What better cover, after all, than as a dippy old bat who makes phony predictions constantly? Nobody takes her seriously, and that's often a great asset to a spy. Even if Professor Snape _wanted_ to do that (assuming that Snape is Ever So Evil after all) his sinister manner and his known background as a DE would preclude him from doing much good. And we've seen a deal before, in PS/SS, where the real bad guy was the last person anybody would suspect..."Who would believe p-p-poor, stut-t-tering Professor Quirrel was the one?" Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 10:47:58 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 10:47:58 -0000 Subject: Omniscient Dumbledore and the time paradox In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54995 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "weeoo0" wrote: > > Well, I have been .... trying to resolve in my mind > the "time paradox" by thinking about it more linearly, > ...edited... > > ... Dumbledore is talking with HH right before they use the time > turner he says "If all goes well, you will be able to save more > than one innocent life tonight" (PB, pg. 288 can ed.) > > ..edited... > > He tells HH they can save another innocent life to referring to > buckbeak, when, using a linear timeline, buckbeak has already been > saved. ...edited... > > Weeoo0 bboy_mn: First we need to remember who Dumbledore is talking to. He is talking to Hermione, not us, the reader. Dumbledore has to maintain 'plausible deniability', he has to tell Harry and Hermoine what to do without coming right out and telling them what to do. So he is dropping a big hint to Hermione, hoping that she will see that if they saves Buckbeak that will give them the means to save Sirius. What does Dumbledore know and when? I don't think Dumbledore knows as much as it seems. I think he knows what's going on the same way your parents know you've done something wrong; mostly by instinct but without actual knowledge. Dumbledore knows Buckbeak is gone. We also know that Dumbledore can sense people hiding behind an invisibility cloak. We can debate how well he can see or sense them, but I think we can safely agree that he can at least sense them. So as Dumbledore and the ministry wizards are walking down to Hagrid's, they are seen approaching out of Hagrid's window. Hagrid hustles H/R/H out the backdoor, and as Dumbledore and the wizard's enter the hut, H/R/H start walking back to the castle. If Hagrid could see Dumbledore coming, why couldn't Dumbledore glance out that same window and sense H/R/H leaving? Dumbledore wouldn't think it was all that unreasonable for H/R/H to come and visit Hagrid. I think he could easy understand that kind of friendship, and be willing to overlook the slight breech of the rules. So now what does Dumbledore know? He knows H/R/H were at Hagrid's. He knows Buckbeak is missing when they go to execute him. 1+1=2. He could suspect at this point that H/R/H couldn't bear to see Buckbeak kill and lead him off into the woods. Time moves forward until we are in the hospital room, and Dumbledore could assume that Buckbeak is stashed somewhere, so he hints that having saved Buckbeaks life, they now have the means to save Sirius's life. I'm not saying it happened that way, I just showing a plausable set of circumstances where from the outside, Dumbledore looks like he knows everything. But we as readers see that he is actually mistaken about what happened. He assumes Buckbeak has been saved and stashed, when in reality it will be the Time-turned Harry and Hermoine who rescue him. Either way history plays out the same, and Dumbledore looks omniscient. I think a lot of what Dumbledore knows comes from common sense, good observation skills, a good sense of human nature, a good judge of character, and a good general intuitive sense. Plus, he may occassionally sit in his office gazing into his crystal ball. Also, he is probably seeking around a lot. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From trondmm-hp4gu at crusaders.no Wed Apr 9 10:59:27 2003 From: trondmm-hp4gu at crusaders.no (Trond Michelsen) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 12:59:27 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Omniscient Dumbledore and the time paradox In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030409114110.00ce77c0@pop3.norton.antivirus>; from t.forch@mail.dk on Wed, Apr 09, 2003 at 11:44:30AM +0200 References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030409114110.00ce77c0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <20030409125927.A6830@crusaders.no> No: HPFGUIDX 54996 On Wed, Apr 09, 2003 at 11:44:30AM +0200, Troels Forchhammer wrote: > Dumbledore at this point /knows/ that Buckbeak > was saved, yes. > He has no way of knowing if it way Harry and > Hermione (or does he?) I think he did. Dumbledore stalled McNair when he was about to go outside to execute Buckbeack. This was just enough time for Harry to get away. I suspect that Dumbledore may have spotted Harry through the window of Hagrid's hut. If he didn't, it was either a coincidence, or he knew Harry needed a little bit of extra time. Since I'm not a big fan of the theories that explain how he could have known about it, I prefer to think that he just spotted Harry :) -- // Trond Michelsen \X/ mike at crusaders.no From JessaDrow at aol.com Wed Apr 9 10:35:23 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 06:35:23 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Query about Neville Message-ID: <94.3668dadf.2bc5516b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54997 In a message dated 4/9/03 5:54:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, briony_coote at hotmail.com writes: > I keep wondering as to why Neville was sorted into Gryffindor. Since > herbology is his best subject, he would be more suited for Hufflepuff. > Is there some potential about Neville that the Sorting Hat picked up, > but Neville hasn't found yet? If so, the most likely reason is that he > doesn't believe in himself. But we have seen sparks of his potential. > Remember the courage he found in standing up to HRH, and won 10 points > for Gryffindor? Or the time he fought the Boggart? The first time he > was extremely scared, but when he found that he was successful, and had > a good laugh in putting Snape in drag, he came up very determinably for > the second time. > > I have a feeling that Neville's parents were in Gryffindor as well. And we also know that the hat does take into consideration where the person being sorted wants to be. Neville's sorting did take awhile, so I always assumed they had a discussion about where he wanted, and Neville was adamant about Gryffindor. ~Faith~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 11:04:31 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 11:04:31 -0000 Subject: Fake wands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54998 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cantoramy" wrote: > Let us not forget that Fred and George made some pretty authentic- > looking and acting fake wands. One even helped their mom make > dinner until it turned into a rubber mouse (GoF US ed. p. 59). I > wonder what they used as a core? Mouse hair? Fake wands - yes, well - I think they could make real wands, except that they don't want to. Real wands don't make people laugh. I'm certain they could never cheat Mr Ollivander with a fake wand - but most other wizards, they could, indeed. Molly knows of them, and still falls? I thought there's a special feeling for your own wand? Or maybe she *likes* those jokes? -- Finwitch From JessaDrow at aol.com Wed Apr 9 10:45:04 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 06:45:04 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] What do wizards do? Message-ID: <12b.2756316c.2bc553b0@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54999 In a message dated 4/9/03 5:22:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, moonfleet24 at hotmail.com writes: > Snape waves a wand to clear up a mess, in one place, then in another he has > Harry swab the place down by hand. One can see why he did that (Harry is so > > irritating), but the point is that cleaning up can be accomplished by a > wand-wave. Cleaning is a cruel and unusual punishment for magic folk. They > have sort of unexpected extras like chasing gnomes out of the gardens, but > they don't have to do the stuff muggles have to do. > Well Harry was raised by Muggles, he'd be quite used to doing it this way. Besides, the reason being he was spying on Snape. "Faith" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From trondmm-hp4gu at crusaders.no Wed Apr 9 11:15:55 2003 From: trondmm-hp4gu at crusaders.no (Trond Michelsen) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 13:15:55 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] one more death question In-Reply-To: ; from peabwain@yahoo.com on Wed, Apr 09, 2003 at 02:20:40AM -0000 References: Message-ID: <20030409131555.B6830@crusaders.no> No: HPFGUIDX 55000 On Wed, Apr 09, 2003 at 02:20:40AM -0000, peabwain wrote: > Who is Voldemort talking about when he says, "one more death and > our > path to Harry Potter is clear"? (US paperback GoF pg 10) Why > can't He's actually talking about Mad Eye Moody. Sometime during the writing of GoF, JKR obviously changed her mind about Mad Eye's faith. This passage has been changed in the British editions, where it says "one more disappearance", or something like that. Why did she change her mind? Why was it important that Moody survived? Well, we can only speculate, but the best theory I've heard so far, is that if he was killed, then he would have turned up as a echo during the Priory Incatatem scene the end. That should of course have made Harry scream "Mad Eye is an imposter" the second he returned to Hogwarts. > Voldemort commit the murder himself? He was able to kill Bertha > Jorkins and Frank Bryce. Executing defenseless people isn't quite the same as overpowering the best (and most paranoid) Auror in the wizarding world. > Or have I completely > missed the Hogwarts Express and Voldemort is talking about the real > Mad-Eye Moody. See, you did miss the express ;) > But even then doesn't Moody need to remain alive > in order for the Polyjuice Potion to work? That's another theory as to why he had to be kept alive. But we don't really know enough about how PJP works to say that he couldn't have just shaved off all of Mad Eye's hair. It should be more than enough for a year's supply of PJP. We don't even know if it's possible to PJP yourself into a dead person. -- // Trond Michelsen \X/ mike at crusaders.no From flamingstarchows at att.net Wed Apr 9 12:27:30 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (FlamingStar Chows) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 07:27:30 -0500 Subject: What if Harry levelled with Professor Trelawney? References: <01af01c2fe4c$26e7f2e0$e4510043@hppav> Message-ID: <002001c2fe93$648b65e0$361a570c@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 55001 ----- Original Message ----- From: Eric Oppen While I can understand why Harry doesn't think much of Professor Trelawney, I do wonder what would have happened if he had levelled with her about that dream he had in class---or the other dreams he's had involving Lord V? ----Me---- Professor Trelawney made her *true* prediction in Chapter 16 of PoA. When Harry tried to tell her what she had said "Professor Trelawney looked thoroughly startled. 'I would certainly not presume to predict anything as farfetched as *that*!'" If Trelawney didn't want to believe her own prediction, why would she believe Harry? She would probably think he made the entire thing up for attention. ~Cathy~ From mdemeran at hotmail.com Wed Apr 9 12:59:50 2003 From: mdemeran at hotmail.com (Meg Demeranville) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 07:59:50 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Another puzzle about Voldemort's wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002301c2fe97$e7d8b110$6501a8c0@MFD> No: HPFGUIDX 55002 "Daughter of the Dust" wrote: He didn't hold the chain long enough for to have been regurgiated, I don't think... Or perhaps, since it already backfired, it was like it hadn't been performed (I know I'm reaching). I write: But the curse that gave Harry the scar occurred after James and Lily were killed. The curse should have appeared between Bertha Jorkins' appearance and Lily's. The passage is as follows: The shadow of Bertha Jorkins surveyed the battle before her with wide eyes. "Don't let go, now!" she cried, and her voice echoed like Cedric's as though from very far away. "Don't let him get you, Harry - don't let go!" She and the other two shadowy figures began to pace around the inner walls of the golden web, while the Death Eaters flitted around the outside of it... and Voldemort's dead victims whispered as they circled the duelers, whispered words of encouragement to Harry, and hissed words Harry couldn't hear to Voldemort. And now another head was emerging from the tip of Voldemort's wand . . . and Harry knew when he saw it who it would be ... he knew, as though he had expected it from the moment when Cedric had appeared from the wand . . . knew, because the woman appearing was the one he'd thought of more than any other tonight. . . . (UK paper 578-9) So Harry's curse does not appear in the regurgitation of spells. Just my two cents. --Meg (still trying for that L.O.O.N. membership) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From flamingstarchows at att.net Wed Apr 9 13:02:05 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (FlamingStar Chows) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 08:02:05 -0500 Subject: Harry's patronus, how many are there? References: Message-ID: <005301c2fe98$3941e8a0$361a570c@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 55003 ----- Original Message ----- From: weeoo0 I've been wondering, what form did Harry's patronus take at the ravenclaw quidditch match in PoA? i was doing some rereading, and the passage where DD says "And then I remembered the most unusual form your patronus took, when it charged Mr Malfoy down at your quidditch match against Ravenclaw. So you did see your father last night Harry ... you found him inside yourself" (PoA pg. 312 Can ed.) ----Me---- >From PoA, Chapter 13: "Something silver-white, something enormous, errupted from the end of his wand." After finishing the book, I always thought this to mean that his Patronus *was* the stag. While we don't know what forms other wizards' take, It would not surprise me if was usually *not* a full grown stag. It would also seem unusual to Dumbledore at that time because he did not know about James being an animagus. I think that sometimes 1+1 really is 2. ~Cathy~ From jmholmes at breckcomm.com Wed Apr 9 00:37:11 2003 From: jmholmes at breckcomm.com (Julie Holmes) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 18:37:11 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pettigrew's choice References: Message-ID: <012e01c2fe30$28ff4ae0$6401a8c0@arvada1.co.home.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55004 <----- Original Message ----- From: annemehr > <> Actually, I'm not arguing. I'm discussing. Arguing implies something negative to me, and I wasn't feeling negative about finwitch's and my conversation. Holding different views does not an argument make. <> Actually, I never said anything of the sort (perhaps you're confusing me with someone else?), nor do I agree with what you've written, although it's certainly possible. It's just not my take on Peter Pettigrew. I *never* said that Peter didn't seek Voldemort out rather than vice versa. I *don't believe* that Peter joined him out of fear; I believe he wanted to. I have no idea what motivated Peter to join Voldemort. Perhaps canon will eventually tell us. I think it will. It intrigues me that Dumbledore hints to Harry that there may come a day that he is grateful for saving Peter. Perhaps Peter's Gryffindor heroics are still yet to come. Perhaps the Sorting Hat saw his potential. Who knows? Until Book 7 is in my hands, there will always be room for speculation. (And there will probably be room for speculation AFTER the series is completed by JKR; people like us want details, details, details!) <> I understood what finwitch was saying, and I still do. I just don't believe it. I have a different opinion. That doesn't mean I'm not understanding her point. <> Yes, I'll concede the semantics. Even so...I don't think it's the right explanation. I think it's the easy one to fall back on. I think the real reason Peter became a Death Eater is not yet known to us, but I'm willing to wager Malfoy's Gringotts account that it's a lot deeper than "OoOo I was scaaaaaaared." That's just me, though. I realize that others take a different view. <> Perhaps finwitch feels differently, but I don't feel the need for refereeing per se; I'm enjoying the conversation and the different ideas put forth, even if I may not find all of them true for my take on HP. ~Julie From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 11:21:45 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 11:21:45 -0000 Subject: Harry's patronus, how many are there? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55005 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "weeoo0" wrote: > Now however, I see it differently. DD is remarking on how Harry found > his father inside himself, thus the prongs patronus. and to me this > suggests that this patronus is different than whatever Harry produced > during quidditch. If Harry produced the prongs patronus that fateful > night with the dementors, and that is when Harry discovered his 'inner > father' as i refer to it, then I ask, what was his patronus before? > just some random thoughts. As I see it, Harry didn't manage proper Patronus until he saved them that fateful night. Nor did Harry know what his father's animagus form was, until he had summoned it! Not when he practised against Dementor-boggart... But, there was *mist*. Harry's father had won a Quidditch- prize, as Chaser - was *Chaser* the Patronus when Harry was playing Quidditch? Or that since Harry had inherited his *father's* invisibility cloak, that Patronus was effective, but *invisible*! Invisible Patronus would indeed be unusual! -- Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 12:16:01 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 12:16:01 -0000 Subject: Comments- open subjects (re: Hagrid's wand, ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55006 > bboy_mn: > Let's look at magic fiction in general, wizards and witches of all > fictional forms all seem to have some magical or enchanted object that > they use to focus their magic when casting spells, charms, and/or > curses. Lord of the Rings and many other wizards use a staff, the > wizard's wand of course is extremely common, less common are talisman, > charms (physical charms like medalions), magic gems, or other magic > objects. > So the point is that an enchanted umbrella could in itself be > used and a device to focus magic. It need not have a broken wand in > it. And the possibility of tranforming the wand into an umbrella is > just as possible. So I'm in agreement, that could very well be what > happened. Although, personally, I lean more toward the repaired wand. > Hopefully, before Hagrid dies, we will find out. Me (Finwitch): Not in all fiction a word or gesture works too, sometimes. There are certain stories, like Soprano Sorceress, where *music* is the magic - sorceress sings words to act. Another is where a boy is rewarder of sparing a life with a special word than enables him to command anything to go his way... Objects are sometimes additional, sometimes related to another type of magic than the basic story, sometimes the only magic... But well, in HP-world, magic can and has been done without any magical objects, but it's easier to control with the objects - unless it's a house-elf doing it... Sure, Hagrid's umbrella is or contains his broken wand; Why else would he grasp to it tightly at Ollivanders? He uses the umbrella like a wizard would use a wand. Hagrid's wand was broken, but I don't think that snapping of a wand is automatical part of expelling. In Hagrid's case, there was endangering lives involved - something that would have sent an adult to Azkaban. But in cases where Harry's recieved threat of expelling - Hoovering Charm in his house; Flying the Car(of which Mr Weasly got a fine)- like, well - things where an adult would get nothing or fine, I doubt they'd snap a wand. -- Finwitch From tammy at mauswerks.net Wed Apr 9 12:48:03 2003 From: tammy at mauswerks.net (Tammy Rizzo) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 08:48:03 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Omniscient Dumbledore and the time paradox In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3E93DE43.18904.A5F6557@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 55007 On 9 Apr 2003 at 3:07, weeoo0 wrote: > So i am wondering, how omniscent is Dumbledore? > He tells HH they can save another innocent life > referring to buckbeak, when, using a linear timeline, > buckbeak has already been saved. > I realize this has already been discussed ad nauseum > on this list, but it's been bugging me. > thought? Okay, here's a thought. Dumbledore cannot simply tell Harry and Hermione what they're supposed to do, because he doesn't really KNOW what they did, exactly. After all, he didn't SEE them take Buckbeak. As far as we know, all he really KNOWS is that Buckbeak vanished, and that Harry has that invisibility cloak, and that Hermione has that Time Turner. Put 'em together and Dumbledore knows the possibility exists that HH did something about Buckbeak. The thing is, they didn't know they were going to do something. They thought Buckbeak had been killed. He gave them the clue they needed, based on the clues he had. Does that make sense, or does it sound too circular? Given, of course, that it IS, by nature, circular. :) Tammy From grace701 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 14:56:33 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (Greicy de los Santos) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 07:56:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hermione and Ron battles/Who could betray Harry?/Hermione's name In-Reply-To: <1049851995.4891.65396.m10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030409145633.55821.qmail@web14506.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55008 I would like for us to look at these two topics and see if we can come to various conclusions. I don't think they have been brought up. If they have, sorry! Ethanol wrote: Examps: in the classical Star Wars movies (Episode 4,5,6), Empire strike back is the low point for the hero: one hero is frozen in carbonite, the other severly injured, the empire is very strong and all looks bleak. In the last movie, the hero must face the villain alone while his friends fight their own fights elsewhere. What could Hermione and Ron possibly fight on their own? I thought of battling Malfoy because he's anti-Weasleys' due to the fact they are muggle-lovers and is a muggle-born (Hermione) haters. But *IF* they fight their own battles it may be individual battles. For some reason this idea popped up into my head: They'll be battling their own fears. And now I wonder what would happen if the Dementors go to Voldemort's side and they have to fight against them? Only Hermione knows how to conjure up a patronus because Harry taught her, although it wasn't really a good time to teach anything. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Serena wrote Oh--Colin is the wormtail? Oh what an intriguing circumstance. However, part of the dynamic included that fact the wormtail was exactly stellar at his studies (near squib maybe). We don't know how Colin is fairing in his studies? Being that my mom and I think that history may repeat itself in the Potterverse, we feel Harry maybe betrayed by one of his bestfriends, just as James, as well as Lily, Sirius and Lupin were betrayed by Pettigrew. We say it's Ron, but lately I just feel bad accusing Ron so I would like to look at some other possibilities, besides Ron, some acquaintances. My list of potential Traitors: Ron ~ The Rift in GoF was caused by feeling betrayed by Harry as Dicentra pointed out wonderfully in her post Anatomy of a Rift (mssgs. 52038-39), but behind that feeling of betrayal is also the feeling of jealousy. Being that Harry and Ron did not talk about what caused this rift, it is still up in the air around them and it could become tense yet again, *perhaps* causing over-reactive Ron to do things against Harry. Ginny ~ She was possessed by Tom Riddle/Voldemort. In some way, Voldemort must have knowledge that Ginny wrote in his diary and will lure her back. There maybe some Riddle Soul left in Ginny causing her to do things which she wouldn't normally do. Then again, Ginny may have shown that she felt horrible about the whole incident, but we don't see Ginny's perspective do we? We don't know what Ginny is thinking? She may have acted as though she felt sorry, but was she really? Neville ~ JKR gave us a description of Neville in PoA from Harry's perspective. That was that Pettigrew was like Neville. Now I can't remember if it was a physical comparison, but any comparison to that rat is not good. I wouldn't think JKR would give us such an obvious clue because that's not her style, but could she be tricking us to think, "No! It can't be Neville because she made it too obvious that he's like Pettigrew." when it really is a clue? Yet, Neville doesn't have any reason to betray Harry. He should be on Harry's side because the DE's made his parents "insane". Could Voldemort trick Neville into think that his parents are in St. Mungo's because it is Harry's fault? I wouldn't put it past him at all. Percy ~ We continously hear from Ron that Percy could rat out his family members. Granted, we shouldn't take any character's words to heart, but just what if Percy is more ambitious than we thought him to be and he's willing to do anything to get what he wants? Why would Ron say it continuously throughout one book? Why does he doubt his brother so much? Did something happen between them for him to think such a thing? BTW, has anyone read The Winter's Tale by Shakespeare? JKR got Hermione's name from there and I wanted to know if there maybe a clue about Hermione. I have it, but I just can't get into it. So what do you guys think! Tear this post apart or add your own ideas! ;) Greicy, who can never accuse Hermione of doing anything wrong and is worried at the fact that JKR said that why doesn't anyone worry about Hermione? What is that supposed to mean!? Greicy --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kkearney at students.miami.edu Wed Apr 9 15:25:53 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 15:25:53 -0000 Subject: What do wizards do? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55009 Lindy wondered: > Why do wizards do anything?... > Snape waves a wand to clear up a mess, in one place, then in another > he has > Harry swab the place down by hand. True, most of the times we've seen wizards clean by hand it has been a punishment. However, we don't know how easy it is to clean by magic. All we see is the wave of the wand, but it probably involves a good deal more thought (mentally target exactly what needs to be cleaned or straightened, where to send the dirt and the cleaned object, etc.). For smaller tasks, it may be more practical to just do it by hand. > Dumbledore can 'draw up' a chair. No need for chair makers then. Can > he > 'draw up' a carpet? A painting? Hmm, has Dumbledore ever conjured a chair? I don't remember that. I'm assuming that JKR was using the phrase "drew up a chair" in the same way we Muggles do- Dumbledore moved an already existing chair over to himself so he could use it. > The food. Do the house-elves cook it? Or magic it up? The wizzes and > witches > put no effort in. Again, we don't know that using magic requires no effort. We've seen Molly cooking, and though she uses helpful little spells to do it, she does seem to exert effort. > Farming - why would a wizard plod around after cows or > sheep? Doesn't he just sit on his rocking chair and wave his wand at > the > poor dawg? Well, Muggles nowadays don't plod around after sheep and cows either. I assume wizards simply use magic in place of technology. Same result. They still have to make sure their crops are planted, get enough water, are protected from pests, harvested, distributed, etc. > Travelling. Its a good job they can't all apparate. All of the >realities of > our world collapse when you get instant travel. You don't have to >live near > your work - just apparate (and no penalties to using magic in JKR's >world, > no magical bounceback as in The Worst Witch or Discworld). Taking >the > kiddies to school? Why send them by antiquated train? Except that >it's > romantic? The fact remains that most wizards and witches don't Apparate all that often, probably due to the difficulties and risks involved. There seems to be a flourishing broomstick business. The Floo network also needs to be regulated (and floo powder made and sold). Seems like there are plenty of necessary activities associated with travel. > The jobs that are described are teaching, civil service, > shopkeeping, and sport. No artists are mentioned (ideal occupation > once the > cleaning is taken care of), though there are musicians. The jobs mentioned have been those that Harry has taken direct notice of. There are plenty that he hasn't seen, or hasn't felt relevant enough to mention. Someone (Steve, I think) wrote a wonderful post explaining the unnoticed work behind the ice cream parlor, jobs that Harry didn't mention but probably exist. > Sorry - a slightly grumpy ramble. What I am saying is, when magic >does so > much, why bother to go to work, why get up in the morning? Well, why do we do what we do? I'm a researcher, right now attempting to model copepod competition in Chesapeake Bay tributaries. Certainly not a necessary activity for life, but hey, I'm getting paid for it, and I (believe it or not) find it an interesting and enjoyable challenge. Many Muggle jobs are like that, really. I'm sure witches and wizards have more than enough activities to occupy their time, even with the added advantage of magic. -Corinth From annemehr at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 15:37:15 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 15:37:15 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew's choice In-Reply-To: <012e01c2fe30$28ff4ae0$6401a8c0@arvada1.co.home.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55010 Okay, now I'm laughing at myself -- for being imprecise, in a post about the precise meaning of words! --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Julie Holmes" wrote: > <----- Original Message ----- > From: annemehr > > < are misunderstanding each other's points.>> > > Actually, I'm not arguing. I'm discussing. Arguing implies something > negative to me, and I wasn't feeling negative about finwitch's and my > conversation. Holding different views does not an argument make. Annemehr: Sorry. I see "arguing" as a more neutral term, implying a discussion with people on opposing sides of an issue, but not neccessarily angrily. A discussion, to me, does not imply opposing sides at all -- as when my husband and I discuss where to go on vacation: we bring up different ideas and possibilities and talk about them, but pretty much find ourselves in agreement. > > < Both of you agree that Peter did not, all on his own, get the idea to > join Voldemort and then seek him out. You both agree that *Voldemort* > sought *Peter* out, and that Peter, out of fear, capitulated and > joined him.>> > > Actually, I never said anything of the sort (perhaps you're confusing me > with someone else?), nor do I agree with what you've written, although it's > certainly possible. It's just not my take on Peter Pettigrew. I *never* said > that Peter didn't seek Voldemort out rather than vice versa. I *don't > believe* that Peter joined him out of fear; I believe he wanted to. I have > no idea what motivated Peter to join Voldemort. Perhaps canon will > eventually tell us. I think it will. Okay, looking back, I see where I got off track: From: "Julie Holmes" <----- Original Message ----- From: sam2sar > <> I disagree. Unless he died trying to avoid joining Voldemort, or died trying to escape his servitude (like Snape could have), then he is there by choice. He's there by choice. He is. And maybe we'll find out more about why that is so. My two cents. ~Julie So, Sam2sar said, " I do not think that Peter *voluntarily* became a DE.", and when you disagreed, I thought it was to say that, since Peter chose to live rather than *avoid* joining or *escaping*, he *capitulated* by choice. Then finwitch offered the following canon from the Shrieking Shack scene: "What was there to be gained by refusing him?" which I personally have always taken to mean that Voldemort was the one to approach Peter, not vice versa. You replied:(msg. 54955) "Just because Peter gave an explanation doesn't mean it's an acceptable one, though." which I took to be a statement on the morality of the expanation, not the accuracy. My take on Peter is that, during VWI, he would have liked to have lain low and tried to ride it out, participating as little as possible on either side. I, personally, can *not* see him approaching the terrifying Voldemort on his own initiative. As I misread your replies to Sam2sar and finwitch (I hope, not *too* unreasonably), I thought you agreed. Sorry. Julie: >I think the real reason Peter became a Death Eater is not yet known >to us, but I'm willing to wager Malfoy's Gringotts account that it's >a lot deeper than "OoOo I was scaaaaaaared." That's just me, though. >I realize that others take a different view. > Annemehr: Yeah! Voldemort is SCARY! > < donning referee's uniform ;) >> > > Perhaps finwitch feels differently, but I don't feel the need for refereeing > per se; I'm enjoying the conversation and the different ideas put forth, > even if I may not find all of them true for my take on HP. > > ~Julie Awww -- that's what the ";)" was for. Annemehr who likes discussions too. From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 16:17:45 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 09:17:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Query about Neville In-Reply-To: <000a01c2fe25$65b80900$57a7a7cb@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <20030409161745.41347.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55011 --- Briony wrote: > I keep wondering as to why Neville was sorted into Gryffindor. Since > herbology is his best subject, he would be more suited for Hufflepuff. > Is there some potential about Neville that the Sorting Hat picked up, > but Neville hasn't found yet? If so, the most likely reason is that he > doesn't believe in himself. But we have seen sparks of his potential. > Remember the courage he found in standing up to HRH, and won 10 points > for Gryffindor? Or the time he fought the Boggart? The first time he > was extremely scared, but when he found that he was successful, and had > a good laugh in putting Snape in drag, he came up very determinably for > the second time. I personally don't subscribe to the idea that certain subjects are traits of any particular House. Just because the head of house is the professor of a certain subject at this point in time doesn't mean that that's *always* been the case or that there's any particular House-wide affinity for the subject. So just because Sprout teaches Herbology doesn't mean it's "the Hufflepuff subject" any more than Transfiguration is necessarily the Gryffindor subject or Potions the Slytherin subject. That's a fanon construction. I think you said for yourself why Neville's in Gryffindor. Whenever we've seen anything of his inner core -- beyond the clumsy kid melting cauldrons -- it's been an act of courage. Standing up to Draco, Crabbe and Goyle at the Quidditch match. Standing up to his own Housemates when they were going to get the House in trouble again. Facing up to the Boggart twice. Getting up the nerve to ask not one but TWO girls to the Yule Ball when Harry and Ron were still shuffling their feet. I think his talking about the Cruciatus Curse during DADA in GOF was an act of courage as well, after what he's *seen* it do to his family. There's a lot more to Neville than his classmates think, and I think he's a Gryffindor right down to the bone. Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Apr 9 17:41:28 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 17:41:28 -0000 Subject: FILK: Send an Auror Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55012 Send an Auror A Filk by Pippin to the tune of Tom Lehrer's "Send the Marines" (Couldn't find a midi for this one, sorry) The original lyrics are at http://members.aol.com/quentncree/lehrer/marines.htm Mad-eye Moody sings: When someone makes a move No wizard would approve, Who is that responds to Dumbledore? DADA and M.L.E., They help, to some degree, But first send an Auror! Though I have lost a leg Which took me down a peg I still have my spellcasting blasting wand. When the Tri-wiz Tournament Arouses grave concern-ament What should you do? Send for an Auror! We know what's right, Defenders of the light, Hogwarts will be protected, Students' rights respected, And phony carriage clocks will be detected The Chamber of Aurors All hate wizarding wars, We'd rather kill them off by peaceful means. Stop calling us all madmen, We're only offing bad men. I've never used a Crucio Except when there was need to know They love me everywhere I go, So when in doubt, Send an Auror From jodel at aol.com Wed Apr 9 18:28:59 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 14:28:59 EDT Subject: Omniscient Dumbledore and the time paradox Message-ID: <163.1ea83a33.2bc5c06b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55013 It occurs to me that Harry and Hermione WERE seen during their rescue of Buckbeak. By Dumbledore. Buckbeak was not being cooperative, and they were having a hard time getting him into the forest. McNair made Hagrid sign the forms that the Ministry official had brought and before he was able to leave the hut to do his job, Dumbledore saved the day by calling McNair back to sign things himself and otherwise provide a necessary delay. We know that McNair had looked out the window earlier and seen that Buckbeak was tied in the garden. I think that Dumbledore (who we have already been given clues enough to suspect that he was aware of the trio under the invisibility cloak on his way into Hagrid's) glanced out the window and saw H&H trying to get Buckbeak away. Dumbledore knows about Hermione's time-turner, and put two and two together. That's how he knew to send them back to sunset to save Buckbeak in the first place. Because he was there, and had seen that *they had already done it*. Reread the rescue of Buckbeak, it is obvious that Dumbledore is causing a delay so they can get him into the forest and out of sight. At that point Dumbledore doesn't know zip about Black. But he knows that the kids are going to save Buckbeak. -JOdel From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 18:31:15 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 18:31:15 -0000 Subject: Query about Neville In-Reply-To: <000a01c2fe25$65b80900$57a7a7cb@oemcomputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55014 "Briony Coote" wrote: I keep wondering as to why Neville was sorted into Gryffindor. ================================================================== Hello all, Fred Waldrop here; I don't know if this will answer your question (or if you will except this answer), but this is how I see it: (HP CoS page 333, US) "So I should be in Slytherin," Harry said, looking desperately into Dumbledore's face. "The Sorting Hat could see Slytherin's power in me, and it - " "Put you in Gryffindor," said Dumbledore calmly. "Listen to me Harry". You happen to have many qualities Salazar Slytherin prized in his hand-picked students". "Yet the Sorting Hat put you in Gryffindor. You know why that was? Think." "It only put me in Gryffindor," said Harry in a defeated voice, "because I asked not to go in Slytherin...." "Exactly," said Dumbledore, beaming once more. "Which makes you very different from Tom Riddle. It's our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than oure abilites." So, if it is the "choices" that one makes instead of their abilities that decide which house each person belongs in, it really would not matter that Neville was a "Great Wizard" or "not a great wizard" (although I think he is going to fool a lot of people), but that he had the Griffindor Want or need, for lack of another word, inside him. He wanted so much to be in Griffindor, the Sorting hat knew he would only Bloom proper in this house. If you are put in a house you do not want to be in, even if you might be better suited for it, you will not do well. As Malfoy says (page 77, PS/SS, US),"Know what house you'll be in yet?" "No," said Harry, feeling more stupid by the minute. "Well, no one really really knows...""imagine being in Hufflepuff, I think I'd leave, wouldn't you?" Plus, what good would it be to put someone in a house when all they will do is sulk and not even try? Also, Neville shows bravery when he stands up to Crabbe & Goyle, (chapter 13, pg 224) by himself no less(while Ron fought Malfoy)at the Quidditch match; "Ron snapped. Before Malfoy knew what was happening, Ron was on top of him, wrestling him to the ground. Neville hesitated, then clambered over the back of the seat to help." "She didn't even notice Malfoy and Ron rolling around under her seat, or the scuffles and yelps coming from the whirl of fist that was Neville, Crabbe, and Goyle." Another example of Nevilles courage is when he stood up to HHR, when they went to stop Quirrel/Voldermort. Fred From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 18:18:11 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 18:18:11 -0000 Subject: Another puzzle about Voldemort's wand In-Reply-To: <002301c2fe97$e7d8b110$6501a8c0@MFD> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55015 Meg gave following part of the point where "Harry's curse" would have been: > > She and the other two shadowy figures began to pace around the inner walls > of the golden web, while the Death Eaters flitted around the outside of > it... and Voldemort's dead victims whispered as they circled the duelers, > whispered words of encouragement to Harry, and hissed words Harry couldn't > hear to Voldemort. ... And comments that Harry's curse does not appear in the regurgitation of spells. However, what do we except to see? The curse failed. It hit back to Voldemort, saving Harry. Are you certain that the shadowy figures beginning to pace around wasn't the echo of that failed spell? That they encourage Harry, and whisper something to Voldemort? Sure, enduring something or killing someone has given visible echo, torture a scream (that was heard) - I don't see why the curse that failed couldn't have been the one that made the figures pace around... Or maybe just that nothing happened? -- Finwitch From manawydan at ntlworld.com Wed Apr 9 18:36:56 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 19:36:56 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Pre-Hogwarts References: <1049830074.10411.66498.m6@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002101c2fec7$23c5ae60$c17d0550@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 55016 Barb writes: >What you say is true for some of the WW...Hermione's parents are >Muggles...as I am sure there are others who have Muggles >as parents or caretakers.They have to deal with educating their >children somehow. It's certain that Hermione will have had a muggle education and probable that children with muggle mothers do - just a suggestion that mothers would find it harder to elude the clutches of muggle bureaucracy than fathers! >The Malfoys may be an exception...they obviously have the money to >afford to hire a private tutor. But how many families, Muggle or >Wizarding can afford to do that? Probably only those who are "old money" like the Malfoys (and possibly those whose employers have a scheme for it - I wonder if Ministry employees have a "perk" that the MoM pays for their children to have junior level education?) >There has to be some type of uniform schooling for the WW...either >through Muggle Schools(ie Harry)or Tutors(Malfoy's). And to get >uniform schooling, the Tutors or parents who educate their children >need to have the same standards. But actually you've just argued very effectively against this requirement. Although from our perspective, children get educated to uniform, centrally imposed standards, that has only been so for a short time in historical terms (1870 in this country, I'm not sure elsewhere) Before that, education was "wherever and whenever", often by religious bodies (who seem to have no equivalent in the WW). Maybe there are wizards who work as junior level teachers and the local community pay them by subscription - teaching basic literacy, numeracy, that kind of thing - not magic, because they pick that up at home. It's a part of everyday life, the same as you wouldn't expect a junior muggle school to need to teach children how to work the remote on the TV set! Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 18:45:03 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 18:45:03 -0000 Subject: Harry's patronus, how many are there? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55017 weeoo0 wrote: > If Harry produced the prongs patronus that fateful night with the > dementors, and that is when Harry discovered his 'inner > father' as i refer to it, then I ask, what was his patronus before? and Finwitch responded: > As I see it, Harry didn't manage proper Patronus until he saved > them that fateful night. Nor did Harry know what his father's > animagus form was, until he had summoned it! Now me: I think Harry's patronus has always been the stag. When he produces his first successful patronus during the Ravenclaw match in PoA, "Something silver white, something enormous, erupted from the end of his wand. He knew it had shot directly at the Dementors but *didn't pause to watch*..." (Ch. 13, my emphasis). So Harry didn't see the shape his patronus took the first time he successful cast it. It wasn't until he actually saw the stag patronus during the time-turning, and when Dumbledore explained afterward that his father's animagus was a stag, that Harry was able to put it all together. Further support for the theory that Harry's patronus always takes the same form (of a stag) is found in GoF, when Harry meets a boggart disguised as a Dementor in the maze, and his Patronus Charm produces a stag: "...a silver stag eruped from the end of Harry's wand and galloped towards the Dementor..." (Ch. 31). I believe it's important that Harry's patronus has always been, and will continue to be, a stag, because I see this as a clue that supports the Heir of Gryffindor theory, as there are historical legends about the association between St. Godric and stags. ~Phyllis From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 15:17:20 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 15:17:20 -0000 Subject: Thoughts on Draco (was Re: A relayed post from a 'would-be-should-be-can't-be-right-now' HP4GU-er In-Reply-To: <3E92FE1C.26384.6F3CE92@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55018 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tammy Rizzo" wrote: > I think Draco's MAIN focus for his hatred of Harry AND himself is the fact > that Harry is a leader, and his followers love and follow him because of > Harry's qualities, and character. True, but I think it extends even more than this. Remember, at the very beginning, Harry rejected Draco's offer of "friendship". So know not only is Draco smarting from that, he is also jealous/upset that Harry has all the things that Draco thought he had (good, loyal friends). Up until this point, Draco has probably been at the top of the heap in his mind, always getting things his way. Now Harry comes along and not only rejects, but makes him see how little he really has. On top of that, Harry doesn't suffer from rejecting Draco, he's stronger for it. > him. Draco is expected to follow in his father's footsteps of power, and > HE CAN'T DO IT! He really IS a bit of a wimp, moron, and incompetent > boob, and he knows it. The others probably know it, too, but follow him > because the hierarchy has been set. We don't nessicarily know that Draco is incompetent and the rest, he's just never been truly tested (like Harry), so he doesn't know how to give it his all because everything has been handed to him on a silver platter. When push comes to shove, Draco could surprise us all. > > Let's face it, for Draco to be a "rival peer" to Harry, he needs to be on > an equal footing, and all the disadvantages are on Draco's side. W I don't if Draco is supposed to be a rival so much as a foil--Draco and Harry are almost complete oppisites in every sense. So I don't know if all the disadvantges are on Draco's side. Harry's advantages seem to be Draco's disadvantges and vice versa which tends to balance them out. Harry's real advantage is given away by Dumbledore when he tells Harry its the choices we make. Harry is allowed make choices, whereas Draco is limited mostly by himself, but in a larger sense by the enviroment in which he lives. > > Poor Draco, due to the patriarchal society in which he lives, he has been > stuck in a position of power, but has been given absolute gits as > henchmen, and therefore, has no REAL power at all. If his henchmen had > been chosen on the basis of ability, rather than patrimony, he might be a > real mover-and-shaker, as well. As it is, he's been set up to fail. His > father should have encouraged him to seek out talent among the other > Slytherins. There are surely some powerful, potent, intelligent, or wise > students in that house. They probably aren't "pureblood," or > "respectable" enough for Lucius to allow Draco to play with them, though. > You know it is possible the Draco does have role in choosing his friends and simply didn't inherit them. He may keep Crabe and Goyle around not because he just inherited them but because them make him feel better about himself. Someone more talented might simply intimidate him. > As has been pointed out, Draco is not a House leader. He's not popular or > well-liked even within his own house. He has his friends who have been > arranged by his parents. Probably even Pansy has been "arranged" by his > and her parents, in one sense or another. The rest of the house couldn't > care less about him. But Harry is really the leader of his house either. But he does seem to be the leader in his year (numerous time in cannon, Draco isn't with just C&G but his entire class leading them in tormenting Harry. The Potter Sucks buttons come mind but I'm sure there are other instances). Draco probably understands that the older students wouldn't respect the authority of someone younger than them, as he gets older we may see him taking more and more of leader role in his house, just as Harry, Hermione, and Ron will do in Gryffindor. As for Snape's seeming love of Draco, is it possible > that he's been cozying up to Draco all this time in order to preserve his > position with Lucius Malfoy, in the event of Voldemort's return to power? Maybe he also sees something of himself in Draco and is hoping by forming a close relationship with him, he can keep from joining the dark side or recruit him as spy to take his place since he may be no longer welcomed in DE circles. > > As for the redeemable aspect, I can see it. Draco knows his weakness, and > knows that he'll have to ally with the stronger side, in order to survive. Possibly--but remember Draco hates Harry and Voldemort is that master of using people emotions to control. Not only is he going to have realize that he is his own person but he is going to have to master his emotions and overcome his hatred. "Serena" From tammy at mauswerks.net Wed Apr 9 15:44:54 2003 From: tammy at mauswerks.net (Tammy Rizzo) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 11:44:54 -0400 Subject: Dumbledore Drawing Chairs (was: What do wizards do?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3E9407B6.9639.B014CCA@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 55019 On 9 Apr 2003 at 15:25, corinthum wrote: > Lindy wondered: > > Dumbledore can 'draw up' a chair. No need for chair makers then. Can > > he 'draw up' a carpet? A painting? > > Hmm, has Dumbledore ever conjured a chair? I don't remember that. I'm > assuming that JKR was using the phrase "drew up a chair" in the same > way we Muggles do- Dumbledore moved an already existing chair over to > himself so he could use it. me: Yeah, Dumbledore actually drew a chair for Professor Trelawney. PoA, chapter 11, page 228 in the Scholastic paperback edition. Trelawney has come down to join the small group having Christmas feast in the Great Hall. -- -- "Certainly, certainly," said Dumbledore, his eyes twinkling. "Let me draw you up a chair--" And he did indeed draw a chair in midair with his wand, which revolved for a few seconds before falling with a thud between Professors Snape and McGonagall. -- -- Sounds to me like he used his wand as a pencil and drew a chair in the air, which became a real chair (at least for the duration of the meal). Tammy From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 18:38:34 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 18:38:34 -0000 Subject: What if Harry levelled with Professor Trelawney? In-Reply-To: <002001c2fe93$648b65e0$361a570c@pavilion> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55020 > ----> ~Cathy~---- > Professor Trelawney made her *true* prediction in Chapter 16 of PoA. When > Harry > tried to tell her what she had said > "Professor Trelawney looked thoroughly startled. 'I would certainly > not presume to predict anything as farfetched as *that*!'" > > If Trelawney didn't want to believe her own prediction, why would she > believe Harry? She would probably think he made the entire thing up for > attention. > Me: That happened in PoA. She does remember Harry's prediction of the Buckbeak previous year, a prediction she considered "unlikely". She doesn't expect anyone to really see something in Crystal Ball, just to figure something that is likely, certainly, going to happen - prefrably some misery -and act as if they Saw it. However, against all odds, Buckbeak *did* fly free, just like Harry said. So, Trelawney figures that Harry *does* have the Sight. When/if she heard of that, I'm certain she told them that Harry Potter saw it happen in Crystal Ball in her room's magical environment which of course leads Snape, who doesn't believe in divination any more than McGonagall or Hermione, to insist that "This has something to do with Potter"... And at the time, Harry both did and didn't know! I'm not sure if Harry's patronus-stag has anything to do with his father being animagus. After all, animagus form reflects personality. Stag for Harry's father - dog for Sirius - and rat for Peter. The one Harry summoned at Quidditch, that chased Draco Malfoy... James Potter, the chaser? -- Finwitch From rvotaw at i-55.com Wed Apr 9 18:43:16 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (rvotaw at i-55.com) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 13:43:16 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Another puzzle about Voldemort's wand Message-ID: <27311754.1049913796319.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55021 Finwitch wrote: > However, what do we except to see? The curse failed. It hit back to
> Voldemort, saving Harry. Are you certain that the shadowy figures
> beginning to pace around wasn't the echo of that failed spell? That
> they encourage Harry, and whisper something to Voldemort?
> Sure, enduring something or killing someone has given visible echo,
> torture a scream (that was heard) - I don't see why the curse that
> failed couldn't have been the one that made the figures pace around...
>
> Or maybe just that nothing happened?
I think it's definitely missing from the priori incantatum. First, the failed AK did cause damage. It caused a lightning bolt shaped scar on baby Harry's forehead. Did baby Harry cry? I don't know. Surely there should've been something. Bright light? A lightning bolt shape? The rebounded curse also ripped Voldemort from his body. Surely that caused a scream? Whether that counts as coming from the wand or not, I'm not quite sure. Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sheila at aliehs.com Wed Apr 9 18:23:39 2003 From: sheila at aliehs.com (Sheila) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 11:23:39 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What house Peter was sorted into. References: <000501c2fe25$643f24a0$57a7a7cb@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <007101c2fec5$25a88a10$9865fea9@brown> No: HPFGUIDX 55022 From: "Briony Coote" > into. I find it quite extraordinary that he would be put in Gryffindor, > since only the bravest and most chivalrous go there, and Peter is > definitely neither. There is no doubting that Sirius and James are I always thought that Peter was put into Gryffindor only because of his friendship with Remus, James, & Sirius. I can't see him being sorted anywhere else. The Sorting Hat could of had two choices of where to put him, just like Harry. I see the Sorting Ceremony in my mind and it could be anyone.... like one of those personality tests. You have both characteristics or qualities of something but more of one than the other. Did I make sense? Sheila. http://aliehs.com From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Wed Apr 9 18:50:59 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 14:50:59 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's patronus, how many are there? References: Message-ID: <02d001c2fec8$f6725ec0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55023 Phyllis wrote: > I believe it's important that Harry's patronus has always been, and > will continue to be, a stag, because I see this as a clue that > supports the Heir of Gryffindor theory, as there are historical > legends about the association between St. Godric and stags. I agree that it always has been and will be a stag. But what is this historical legend re: St. Godric and stags? I'd be interested to learn of it. ~Katy~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From patgruenke at cloudnet.com Wed Apr 9 16:10:14 2003 From: patgruenke at cloudnet.com (Pat and Jim Gruenke) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 11:10:14 -0500 Subject: What do wizards do? Message-ID: <3E9445E6.9E34CAF8@cloudnet.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55024 > Hmm, has Dumbledore ever conjured a chair? I don't remember that. > Yes, he has! I just read that chapter aloud to my boys last night. PoA, p.228. Professor Trelawney was joining the Christmas feast: "Certainly, Certainly,", said Dumbledore, his eyes twinkling. "Let me draw you up a chair--" And he did indeed draw a chair in midair with his wand, which revolved for a few seconds before falling with a thud... And there was the time he conjured "hundreds of squashy purple sleeping bags" when the students had to sleep in the Great Hall on Halloween. p. 162-163, PoA So, things can be conjured out of thin air, but they don't last. Pat, who wishes she could magic her house clean! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From summer2999 at aol.com Wed Apr 9 16:40:50 2003 From: summer2999 at aol.com (summer2999) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 16:40:50 -0000 Subject: On Why Hermione is a Gryffindor Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55025 In a recent post, someone asked why Hermione is in Gryffindor (part of the 50 questions, I believe) and I think I know the answer. In SS/PS, Chapter 16, page 287 (US version), Harry and Hermione have just finished solving the potions puzzle to get to the Sorceror's Stone. It's the part where Hermione is going to go back to help Ron, and Harry is going to go ahead. Here's the quotes: "Harry--you're a great wizard, you know." "I'm not as good as you," said Harry, very embarassed, as she let go of him. "Me!" said Hermione. "Books! And cleverness! There are more important things--friendship and bravery and--oh Harry--be careful!" I think the difference between the four houses is what they value the most. Gryffindors value bravery, Hufflepuffs value loyalty, Ravenclaws value wisdom, and Slytherins value cunning. I think Hermione could fit easily into either Ravenclaw or Gryffindor, just as Harry could fit easily into Gryffindor or Slytherin. Just because Hermione is very smart and values wisdom, she values bravery more, just as she says. Just as Dumbledore says in CoS, Chapter 18, page 333, "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." That's when Harry is wondering why he wasn't put in Slyterin. I hope this made sense to some people. I definetly think the Sorting Hat must be very smart anyway, and I wonder how it was made. And I'm very sorry if this has been discussed before. Peace, Carolyn From RSFJenny19 at aol.com Wed Apr 9 18:53:55 2003 From: RSFJenny19 at aol.com (RSFJenny19 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 14:53:55 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Comments- open subjects (re: Hagrid's wand, ) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55026 bboy_mn wrote: Dippet was headmaster and he officiated Hagrid's expulsion. So I feel there was definitely A wand snapped but it's not clear that THE wand was snapped. One possibility is that Dumbledore gave Hagrid a substitute, and it was the substitute wand that was snapped. Now Hagrid's original wand is hidden inside his umbrella. my reply: There have been a few ideas about the state of Hagrid's wand concerning Dumbledore (yours was the most recent I found), but none of them really seem to jibe with precedent set in canon on how Dumbledore acts. In every situation I can think of, Dumbledore merely provides clues and opportunities for people to accomplish things that are unlawful, and never actually participates himself. This leads me to believe that Dumbledore would never substitute the wand etc., the most he would do would be to give Hagrid the idea to do something like that. ~Jenny From julia at thequiltbug.com Wed Apr 9 19:05:27 2003 From: julia at thequiltbug.com (Calliope) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 12:05:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] On Why Hermione is a Gryffindor Message-ID: <20030409120527.6510.h007.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net> No: HPFGUIDX 55027 Carolyn wrote: > I think Hermione could fit easily into either Ravenclaw or > Gryffindor, just as Harry could fit easily into Gryffindor or > Slytherin. Just because Hermione is very smart and values wisdom, > she values bravery more, just as she says. Agreed. I also think the Hat considers what the student "needs" to help them develop their potential. Can you imagine how single-minded Hermione would be in Ravenclaw? All study-study-study, and she'd probably not develop socially at all. Look how she's lightened up over these four years of being friends with Harry and Ron. She's still serious about schoolwork, but not quite as *obesessive* about it as she was at the beginning when she was memorizing books and taking way too many classes. I think the third year was a wake-up call for her. --Calliope (who is always up for a good discussion of Hermione, her favorite character) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Calliopes_fics/ http://www.thedarkarts.org/authorLinks/Calliope/ http://www.riddikulus.org/authorLinks/Calliope/ From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Wed Apr 9 19:09:28 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 19:09:28 -0000 Subject: What do wizards do? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55028 Lindy Brett wrote: > Snape waves a wand to clear up a mess, in one place, then in another > he has Harry swab the place down by hand. One can see why he did that > (Harry is so irritating), but the point is that cleaning up can be > accomplished by a wand-wave. Cleaning is a cruel and unusual > punishment for magic folk. They have sort of unexpected extras like > chasing gnomes out of the gardens, but they don't have to do the > stuff muggles have to do. You've touched the reason yourself, partly: manually cleaning is a punishment. But hardly cruel and definetely not unusual - we've seen it several times (Ron was made clean trophies after the arrival in CoS). As a punishment, in fact, is very light for Hogwart standards (compared, for example, to roaming the forbidden forest at night), and very effective: I'm sure Harry won't spill anything any time soon (except when he wants to stay and listen to Snape talking, that is). > Dumbledore can 'draw up' a chair. No need for chair makers then. Can > he 'draw up' a carpet? A painting? "Draw up" doesn't mean "create". It means bringing it from some other place. That can indeed be accomplished by magic, but it hardly puts anyone out of their jobs. In the same level, someone has already pointed out that creating things out of pure magic is, by the rules set up by JKR, limited in time (not permanent). I think of it as a form of illusion magic: no matter how solid it looks and feels, it is still formed of nothing but magic, and when the energy runs out, so does the object. More powerful individuals migh hold the illusion longer, but it *will* keep disapearing, maybe at inconvenient times. It is easier to buy the object. And of course, some objects cannot be created, no matter what. A chair might be easy (assuming it doesn't fall apart when you first try to sit), but could you create a radio? a flying broomstick? a self-stirring cauldron? We muggles have technology, and with technology you can build a Boing 747. Can *you* create it? No, because you don't know how. A chair is easier, yes, but requires logic (i.e. this peg goes here so it holds this leg attached to this other part, etc.), and so far most wizards have very little in the ways of logic. > The food. Do the house-elves cook it? Or magic it up? The wizzes and > witches put no effort in. Farming - why would a wizard plod around > after cows or sheep? Doesn't he just sit on his rocking chair and > wave his wand at the poor dawg? As someone has pointed out already, they don't need to do that anymore we have to: where they wave wands and get things done, we wave other wands (steering wheels) and have the machines work instead. Food is cooked with ovens and microwaves, except those that like a more hands-on approach, out of personal preference. And so on. > Travelling. Its a good job they can't all apparate. All of the > realities of our world collapse when you get instant travel. That is not true, at all. Instant travel, in our world (or the closest thing to it, light speed travel) would still require energy, and thus would still need technology and consumption of resources to produce. Besides, forests that would continue to be devoured to make newspapers, and so many other examples of realities of our world, would hardly "collapse" by instant travel. > You > don't have to live near your work - just apparate (and no penalties > to using magic in JKR's world, no magical bounceback as in The Worst > Witch or Discworld). Taking the kiddies to school? Why send them by > antiquated train? Except that it's romantic? No penalties? Hardly. There is the big danger of splinching, so terrible that many wizards never learn to apparate. You cannot apparate big distances. Assuming no hidden plots, Dumbledore, the most powerful wizard in England, prefers to take the broom to London in PS rather than attempting apparition. They still use brooms, flu powder and portkeys. And there is pretty good evidence that you cannot safely apparate while carrying other living people. In the theme of the train, it's not particularly traditional, but as a child, I always enjoyed trips like that one. Giving the chidren a day to reach trhe school fomentates friendship between the students and also allows them time to get used to the idea of school. Apart from the fact that it is the easiest way of transporting several hundred children from one place to another. > I find the use of magic in Hogwarts an endless puzzle. It can do some > things, and not others. Such detail, but what about sewers? Sewers do exist and are regularly used (apart from extraordinarily by giant snakes and Harry in CoS). They empty in the lake, and some have suggested after some form of residual treatment (or else, angry lake-dwellers). > So: can magic do everything? I have a theory of my own in this aspect. We know that there are limitations to what a given individual can accomplish by magic - Dumbledore is known to be more *powerful* which in turns means that doing magic requires energy in some sort, energy which Dumbledore must have in more quantity, or at least can use more efficiently. Which in turn means that you cannot spend the entire day doing magic, since power must run out sooner or later, IMO. Furthermore, as I have pointed out, magic has a definite boundary to what it can do: you cannot do something by magic that you cannot work out in your mind. Anymore that if you are given all the pieces (and I mean the pices, down to and including individual logic gates) you wouldn't be able to put together a computer, a wizard cannot do something he does not understand, or for which he knows no spell. As in the real world, in the WW there is specialization: some people know best some spells, other know others. And no-one can know all of them. So if you happen to know how to build broomsticks and how to enchant them, you cannot create ice-cream... or at least not as good as the one a professional ice-cream maker does. > The jobs that are described are teaching, civil > service, shopkeeping, and sport. No artists are mentioned (ideal > occupation once the cleaning is taken care of), though there are > musicians. Artist have indeed been mentioned. We know of musicians and photographers. Pictures evdence the existance of painters. Many book authors have been mentioned, including Lockhart. Harry is not the one to read poetry, but he has been subjected to it, indicating that rhyming is indeed known in the WW. BUT, unlike you point out, there is more to this life than cleaning, and most people still need jobs to live confortably. And the same thing happens in the muggle world: I can clean my entire flat in an hour, but that won't put food in my plate, so if I want to eat, I better have money to purchase it. > Sorry - a slightly grumpy ramble. What I am saying is, when magic > does so much, why bother to go to work, why get up in the morning? > > Lindy That argument cuts both ways: as Clark (Arthur C.) said once: sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguisable from magic. Most of the magical tricks of HP can be replicated in our world. All can be duplicated in Science Fiction. But people, regardless of the amount of technology, still have to work to make a living. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 19:12:46 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 19:12:46 -0000 Subject: Stag Symbolism (WAS: Harry's patronus, how many are there?) In-Reply-To: <02d001c2fec8$f6725ec0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55029 Katy asked: > But what is this historical legend re: St. Godric and stags? I'd be > interested to learn of it. Now me: I didn't go into more detail in my original post since I've posted about this in the past, but since you asked... St. Godric is "noted for his close familiarity with wild animals" and is represented in art as a "very old hermit dressed in white, kneeling on grass and holding a rosary, with a stag by him." (see: http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintg6t.htm). In the legend of "St. Godric and the Hunted Stag," a hunting party is pursuing a particularly beautiful stag, which runs to St. Godric's hermitage for shelter. St. Godric lets the stag in, but the hunting party follows the stag's tracks and cuts through "the well-nigh impenetrable brushwood of thorns and briars" to find St. Godric. They ask St. Godric where the stag is, "but he would not be the betrayer of his guest." (see: http://users.erols.com/saintpat/ss/0521.htm). IMO, this legend parallels the workings of the Fidelius Charm, with St. Godric as the stag's Secret-Keeper. However, unlike Peter Pettigrew, St. Godric does not tell the hunters where to find their prey, and the stag survives. Since JKR has said there is a connection between Godric Gryffindor and Godric's Hollow (see: http://www.geocities.com/aberforths_goat/text.htm (Fall 2000 BBC Newsround), and since the Medieval Latin etymology of "patronus" is "patron saint," I think the stag is a clue to a connection between the life of St. Godric and Godric Gryffindor, and by extension, a clue to a connection between Godric Gryffindor and Harry. ~Phyllis From t.forch at mail.dk Wed Apr 9 19:19:20 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 21:19:20 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's patronus, how many are there? In-Reply-To: <02d001c2fec8$f6725ec0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030409211206.00cda790@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 55030 At 14:50 09-04-03 -0400, Katy Cartee wrote: >Phyllis wrote: > > > I believe it's important that Harry's patronus has always been, and > > will continue to be, a stag, because I see this as a clue that > > supports the Heir of Gryffindor theory, as there are historical > > legends about the association between St. Godric and stags. > >I agree that it always has been and will be a stag. But what is >this historical legend re: St. Godric and stags? I'd be interested >to learn of it. http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintg6t.htm http://users.erols.com/saintpat/ss/0521.htm#godr The last one in particular has a couple of good stories titled "Saint Godric's Garden and the Wild Deer" and "Saint Godric and the Hunted Stag" Troels From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 19:19:56 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 19:19:56 -0000 Subject: Comments- open subjects (re: Hagrid's wand, ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55031 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "finwitch" wrote: > > > bboy_mn: > > ... wizards and witches of all fictional forms all seem to have > > some magical or enchanted object that they use to focus their > > magic when casting spells, charms, and/or curses. ... wizards use > > a staff, the wizard's wand ..., ...talisman, charms (physical...) > > , magic gems, or other magic objects. > > Me (Finwitch): > Not in all fiction a word or gesture works too, sometimes. ..., like > Soprano Sorceress, where *music* is the magic - .... Another is > ... a special word .... > bboy_mn: While my main point was that Hagrid's wand could indeed be a 'wand' in and of itself without the broken wand inside, and that it could also be Hargird's wand transformed into an umbrella as someone suggested, I agree with your point that a wand isn't always required for magic. I was just trying to establish a precident that verified the suggested possibility, not define all fictional magic. As you pointed out there are several examples in the HP books where productive focused magic is performed by wizards without a wand. I think common and familiar spells become very easy for an experienced witch or wizard, enough so that they don't need to bother with a wand for a alot of the small stuff. > Sure, Hagrid's umbrella is or contains his broken wand; Why else > would he grasp to it tightly at Ollivanders? He uses the umbrella > like a wizard would use a wand. ...edited... > bboy_mn: the book so far strongly suggests that the broken wand is inside the umbrella, and clearly that is what we are suppose to believe at this point. But that is based on nothing more than a guess on Harry's part, so other possibilities aren't completely ruled out. Still at this point it is the logical assumption that the broken wand is in the umbrella. Again, I was just trying to establish a precident that backed up someone elses suggestion. > ...edited...like, well - things where an adult would get nothing or > fine, I doubt they'd snap a wand. > > -- Finwitch bboy_mn: Right again, in Hagrid's case, serveral people were injured and someone died, so the punishment for that would be extreme. Although, given a death occurred, Hagrid got off very lightly. If an adult wizard had done what Hagrid was accused of doing, I'm sure prison time would have been involved. In general though, I don't think they run around snapping wands right and left for every little offense. I also think that conciously or subconciously Prof. Dippet and the Ministry knew that the case against Hagrid was weak, and that if they truly investigated it with an objective eye, the accusations wouldn't stand up, but they were more interesting in the whole thing being over with than they were with justice. Just a thought. bboy_mn From mbarclay at lee.edu Wed Apr 9 19:31:16 2003 From: mbarclay at lee.edu (Barclay, Maggie) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 14:31:16 -0500 Subject: Hermione's Name Message-ID: <8F497E280916D4119B0100A0C9EA53E7021D5A1B@leonardo.lee.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 55032 I kept thinking that I had heard the name "Hermione" when I was studying mythology years ago. I finally got around to looking it up, and found that Hermione, the goddess of the Harmony, was one of Mars' daughters. Also interesting to note is that Mars is also the father of the famous twins, Remus and Romulus. Isn't it interesting that Hermione does play peacekeeper between Harry and Ron? Are there any other instances? And wouldn't it be odd if Professor Lupin turned out to be Hermione's half brother? MaggieB--only because she noticed there was another Mags posting [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 19:30:54 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 19:30:54 -0000 Subject: What do wizards do? In-Reply-To: <3E9445E6.9E34CAF8@cloudnet.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55033 Pat and Jim Gruenke patgruenke at c...> wrote: So, things can be conjured out of thin air, but they don't last. ===================================================================== Hello all, Fred Waldrop here I have been seing this in post after post, that if something is magicly made, it will not last. Where does everyone get this from? I have not read it in any of the books, or did I just miss it? Fred From manawydan at ntlworld.com Wed Apr 9 19:32:02 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 20:32:02 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why work in the WW? References: <1049881727.1563.28619.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000401c2fece$b27f4b00$c17d0550@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 55034 Lindy writes: >Why do wizards do anything? Magic does the washing up, the knitting, the >travelling, . . . Magic seems to me to be a process rather than a creative force. If I'm a wizard, then although I can't do things like transforming leaves into money, I can certainly do things which I think would be a lot less toxic than the way technology does them. Say I'm a wizard miner. I use a spell to locate my seam or ore (and another one to hide it from muggles). I use another spell to extract the ore, and another one to extract the mineral from it. And all without having to wear out my lungs or my limbs with a mandrel underground, No spoil heaps, no toxic waste, no environmental blight. >Dumbledore can 'draw up' a chair. No need for chair makers then. Can he >'draw up' a carpet? A painting? I didn't read this as being a magical reference. I thought he just "drew the chair up" to be sat on, not that he created it. I don't think that something transformed into a chair would be very long lasting anyway. >The food. Do the house-elves cook it? Or magic it up? The wizzes and witches >put no effort in. Farming - why would a wizard plod around after cows or >sheep? Doesn't he just sit on his rocking chair and wave his wand at the >poor dawg? Well, Molly Weasley is able to use magic to peel spuds and to generate a sauce for cooking, but not to create the potatoes in the first place - there's no suggestion that she's peeling transformed gnomes (yuck!). So you would need wizard farmers. But once again, the degree of hard slog wouldn't be there. You would need a spell to keep the farm hidden from muggles, and various ones to germinate your seeds, keep the fields free from weeds and pests while encouraging companion plants and useful insects, grow the crop to its maximum potential, and harvest it. But once again, potentially a far less destructive and toxic process than muggle farming. >Travelling. Its a good job they can't all apparate. All of the realities of >our world collapse when you get instant travel. You don't have to live near >your work - just apparate (and no penalties to using magic in JKR's world, >no magical bounceback as in The Worst Witch or Discworld). Taking the >kiddies to school? Why send them by antiquated train? Except that it's >romantic? Although I agree about the train (why would a child from Lerwick or John O'Groats have to travel all the way to Kings Cross just to get a train that travels back again), the way wizards travel is the way the WW is. Although there _are_ risks - untrained Apparation can be dangerous, Harry ended up in the wrong fireplace when he used Floo for the first time, I'm sure that the congestion and carnage on the muggle roads is something which just isn't there in the WW - Apparation, Portkeys, and brooksticks don't pollute, and you _don't_ have to live near your work. >I find the use of magic in Hogwarts an endless puzzle. It can do some >things, and not others. Such detail, but what about sewers? So: can magic do I wonder how many if any wizard communities would be big enough to need sewers? Hogsmeade perhaps. But others just seem to live as isolated families. So that a simple earth closet spell to purify and dispose of sewage, grey water, and the like would be sufficient. >everything? The jobs that are described are teaching, civil service, >shopkeeping, and sport. No artists are mentioned (ideal occupation once the >cleaning is taken care of), though there are musicians. This has attracted a number of posts in the past - even just going on canon there are a large number of ancillary jobs mentioned. Think about Hogwarts, which as well as the Professors has a matron, librarian, janitor, and groundskeeper (that we know of) >Sorry - a slightly grumpy ramble. What I am saying is, when magic does so >much, why bother to go to work, why get up in the morning? Because once you can use magic to take the drudgery out of work, then actually it looks to leave room for the skilful and rewarding side. No one in the WW (well possibly Filch) seems to be miserable at their work. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 19:46:34 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 19:46:34 -0000 Subject: What do wizards do? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55035 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Fred Waldrop" wrote: > Pat and Jim Gruenke patgruenke at c...> wrote: > > > So, things can be conjured out of thin air, but they don't last. > ===================================================================== > > Hello all, Fred Waldrop here > > I have been seing this in post after post, that if something is > magicly made, it will not last. > Where does everyone get this from? I have not read it in any of the > books, or did I just miss it? > > Fred bboy_mn: Let's make a distinction between CREATING something magically, and CONJURING something magically. Creating magically mean to create something out of SOMETHING, in which case it is permanent. The house-elves create cooked food out of raw ingredients using magic. EIther that food is permanent or all the students starve to death. Conjuring something means to create something out of NOTHING. Since it comes from nothing, it returns to nothing. Using food as an example, this is the diet where you can eat 90% of your food as conjured premiun ice cream and chocolate bars, and still loose weight. I could use about 10 pound of that magic right now. The precident of conjured objects having no permanence comes from an interview with JKR where she said that MOST things created from nothing are in fact, just that, nothing. So they aren't permanent. She did imply that the degree of permanence was variable, and some conjured objects could last a significant amount of time, but generally nothing=nothing. As with many of her interviews, a lot is implied, but no much is actually said. I remember seeing someone cite this interview recently. If I can find it again I will post it. Just a thought. bboy_mn From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 20:10:11 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 20:10:11 -0000 Subject: What do wizards do? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55036 (First I asked) Hello all, Fred Waldrop here I have been seing this in post after post, that if something is magicly made, it will not last. Where does everyone get this from? I have not read it in any of the books, or did I just miss it? ==================================================================== bboy_mn: Replied Let's make a distinction between CREATING something magically, and CONJURING something magically. Creating magically mean to create something out of SOMETHING, in which Case it is permanent. The house-elves create cooked food out of raw ingredients using magic. EIther that food is permanent or all the students starve to death. Conjuring something means to create something out of NOTHING. Since it comes from nothing, it returns to nothing. Using food as an example, this is the diet where you can eat 90% of your food as conjured premiun ice cream and chocolate bars, and still loose weight. I could use about 10 pound of that magic right now. The precident of conjured objects having no permanence comes from an interview with JKR where she said that MOST things created from nothing are in fact, just that, nothing. So they aren't permanent. She did imply that the degree of permanence was variable, and some conjured objects could last a significant amount of time, but generally nothing=nothing. As with many of her interviews, a lot is implied, but no much is actually said. ==================================================================== Me again, Fred Waldrop; Thanks for the information. And if JKR said it to be so, I fall in line with her, after all, it is her universe, not mine. She created it, so she should know exactly how it works. As a side note, I can not understand why so many can not understand that the Potterverse is the compleat creation of JKR. And if she desides that a failed curse does not show up during a Priori Incantatem, then all is still well, it just doesn't show up. Just a thought, and I am sure that some will say I am wrong. Fred From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 19:24:01 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 19:24:01 -0000 Subject: Dobby in Book 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55037 "Anne" wrote: > Interesting idea, but I have extreme difficulty imagining the > Dursleys allowing Dobby or any other magical creature (other than > Harry, who they are *forced* (we don't yet know why) to shelter) to > live in their home. So if Dobby does come to live at Number 4 Privet > Drive it won't be at the invitation or with the forebearance of the > Dursleys... though I suppose Harry could find some way to hide Dobby > in the basement?... or perhaps under that loose stair that creaks > whenever someone steps on it.... No need to ask Dursleys! It's not like Dobby asked when he came first time...Maybe Dobby wanted to go see Harry Potter - not so much work to do at Hogwarts, anyway, so he takes a vacation... Dobby vs. Dursleys... Well - Dobby hide? I think not. He'd tell Vernon, Petunia and Dudley Dursley not speak so nastily of the great wizard, Harry Potter. Dobby could hide in Harry's trunk, under invisibility cloak, or maybe he can make himself invisible? Creaky stair... IS there something under it? A key to Harry's maternal heritage is my view - well, basically the Gringotts vault, invisibility cloak and the map are Harry's paternal heritage. About time he learns of his mother, and what *she* left for him. -- Finwitch From abbeycarter at aol.com Wed Apr 9 19:36:51 2003 From: abbeycarter at aol.com (abbeycarter at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 15:36:51 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's Name Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55038 Hermione is also the daughter of Helen of Troy and Menelaus Her dad arranged for her to marry Orestes (who ended up murdering lots of family members and was haunted by Erinyes for a long time), but when the Trojan War began, he tried to get on the Greeks good side by marrying her off to Neoptolemus (Pyrrhus), the only son of Achilles. The two suitors dueled over Hermione and Neoptolemus was killed. Sounds kinda like a Harry Ron Hermione love triangle to me. ~Abbey From nezray2001 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 20:26:49 2003 From: nezray2001 at yahoo.com (Ines Echegaray) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 13:26:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dark Magic Light > formerly Thoughts on Draco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030409202649.69924.qmail@web11908.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55039 >As for Snape's seeming love of Draco, is it possible > that he's been cozying up to Draco all this time in order > to preserve his position with Lucius Malfoy, in the event >of Voldemort's return to power? Serena wrote: Maybe he also sees something of himself in Draco and is hoping by forming a close relationship with him, he can keep from joining the dark side or recruit him as spy to take his place since he may be no longer welcomed in DE circles. nez: The Snape/Draco connection is very interesting isn't it? Snape, though, doesn't strike me as much of a sentimentalist. I'd always thought that if he ever did manage to bond with Draco, which he's steadily working toward facilitating, it would be to expose him to the "correct" use of Dark Magic. One the Death Eaters and Valdemort do not practice. One that may be a bit more Dumbledore-friendly but not entirely in or out of the light. nez --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jmholmes at breckcomm.com Wed Apr 9 20:12:59 2003 From: jmholmes at breckcomm.com (Julie Holmes) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 14:12:59 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] On Why Hermione is a Gryffindor References: <20030409120527.6510.h007.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net> Message-ID: <00d401c2fed4$6aa7d120$6401a8c0@arvada1.co.home.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55040 <----- Original Message ----- From: Calliope > << I also think the Hat considers what the student "needs" to help them develop their potential.>> This is what I was inferring to when I argued that Peter could very well have been sorted into Gryffindor. For if the hat knew that Peter needed the strength and character found in Gryffindor, it may have sorted him there because it was what he needed *overall*. But the Sorting Hat can only do so much. It can steer a child in the right direction, but ultimately the child must develop (or not) their own morality. ~Julie -who also likes Hermione. A lot. From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Wed Apr 9 21:33:58 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 21:33:58 -0000 Subject: What do wizards do? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55041 Fred Waldrop wrote: > As a side note, I can not understand why so many can not understand > that the Potterverse is the compleat creation of JKR. And if she > desides that a failed curse does not show up during a Priori > Incantatem, then all is still well, it just doesn't show up. > Just a thought, and I am sure that some will say I am wrong. > > Fred That is not the point. Anything and everything in the HP world can be explained with the "because JKR said so". But for many in this list, including me, that is not nough, I enjoy the HP books so far because they are a coherent universe, which is to say that there are rules, that casuality operates within the parametres explained by science (yes, even in the time travel episode) and that there is a logical thread to the books (this in fact is different from real life - as Mark Twain put it, "The reason why truth is so much stranger than fiction is that there is no requirement for it to be consistent"). Many (going out in a limb, I think I'll say *all*) of the people in this list assume that there *is* a reason for things to happen the way they do in the Potterverse, and thus all their theories and opinions expresed are aimed at discovering or explaining what this reason *is*. In short, it is not enough that JKR says so, it also has to make sense. And for good examples of that, look up in the archive any of the discussions on the number of students at Hogwarts (where it "seems" obvious that JKR was contradicting herself - although recent theories have managed to shorten the gaps) and the discussions on when exactly the books take place. Especially in the first case, "JKR said so" is not enough - and that is where FLINTs enter the picture. On another line completely, I have to say that I have expressed before the theory that a failed AK will not show up in the PI effect due to the fact that there was no soul absorbed/anihilated/separated from the body to replicate as a shadow. This makes sense, since all the other AKs did have shadows possesed of their own intelligence, while this one could not - what should it show? a pale shadow? a wisp of smoke? given random shots in the dark, it's a good hpothesis as any other that it would show nothing, since there was nothing to be shown. I have, in fact, expanded this theory to say that unsuccessful spells, no matter of what kind, won't have PI shadows. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 21:34:55 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 21:34:55 -0000 Subject: What do wizards do? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55042 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lindy Brett" wrote: > Regarding the 'What Do Wizards Do?' thread a little while back > [and please bear in mind that I am new here, I've been lurking, > hiding overawed, its a huge list, the archives are humoungous . . . > - so you have probably discussed this one ad infinitum too, but I > didn't notice - anyway . . . ] > > Why do wizards do anything? Magic does the washing up, the knitting, > the travelling, . . . > > ...edited... > > Sorry - a slightly grumpy ramble. What I am saying is, when magic > does so much, why bother to go to work, why get up in the morning? > > Lindy bboy_mn: Let's say that there is magic, then there is Magic. In the past, I made extensive posts on what wizards do and how they do it; re: wizard's commerce, wizard's occupations, etc..., so I won't go into all that in detail. However, work, like many things is relative. My great grandmother and great aunts all made bread by hand. That is not an easy task. In fact, it is extremely laborious for somerthing as simple and basic as bread. If you paid someone a decent wage by the hour to make bread the old fashioned way, a loaf of bread would probably cost $50. Once a year my great grandmother took the rugs out of the house, hung them on the clothes line and beat the crap out of them to get the dust and dirt out. Compared to that, a vacuum cleaner is magic beyond what she could even imagine. She cook on a stove that was fueled by wood; compared to that a microwave in magic. She washed clothes in a large tub and scrubbed them by hand against a 'washboard', compare to that, a modern washing machine is magic. Point? Work is relative. Let's examing a magic farmer. Spring comes and there is standing water in his fields, so he has to use a drought charm to dry the fields. He takes deliver of his seed, but first he must go out and use a plowing charm to till the field, then another charm to smooth the field. Now he has to us a planting charm to sow the seed. Followed by weeks of watering, cultivation, and fertilization charms. In the mean time, livestock has to be feed, cows have to be milked, eggs have to be gathered. Now it late in the season and he needs to use a harvest charm to gather the crops, then a transfer charm to move the crops to storage, if the crop is grain, then he must use a drying charm to dry the grain to the proper moisture levels, then another transfer charm to move the crops to market, then he has to haggle and negotiate for the sale of the crops. If he as sold the crops in a barter system, he as to get whatever goods that were used to pay him, back to his farm. Whew... a farmer's work is never done. I'm sure this farmer constantly complain to his wife about how hard he works and how tedious it is being a farmer, and how he wishes there was some way to make his job easier. I can paint the same scenario for a house wife; washing charm, cooking charms, making sure that the cooling charm is working on the cool cupboard, and the freeze charm on the frozen cupboard, carpet vacuming charms, dusting charms, clothes washing charms, gardening charms, etc... etc... etc.... I'm sure when Mrs. Weasley gets done taking care of 8 kids and a husband, she thinks she's had a long hard day even if she was using magic. What food they don't grow has to be bought, that means a trip to Diagon Alley which means she has to find someone to take care of the kids while she is gone or she has to floo them all to the store with her which make shopping that much more tedious. Pick any profession, and I will show you how, even with magic, it still seems like a lot of work to the wizard who does it. Remember that magic is normal to wizards just like computers are to today's kids. Today's kids can't imagine having to spend hours hand writing reports, or going all the way to the library just to look something up. Your kids can't imagine how a world without calculators and spell checkers and on-line encyclopedias could function. The point again is that work is relative. Your kids see their lives as hard and tedious, and can't imagine what it much have been like living back in the stone age when there weren't any CD's, DVD's, computers, internet, etc.... Just a thought. bboy_mn From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Wed Apr 9 21:44:59 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 21:44:59 -0000 Subject: Lilly's heritage (WAS: Dobby in book 5) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55043 finwitch wrote: > Creaky stair... IS there something > under it? A key to Harry's maternal heritage is my view - well, > basically the Gringotts vault, invisibility cloak and the map are > Harry's paternal heritage. About time he learns of his mother, and > what *she* left for him. > > -- Finwitch Well, there are some things that Harry's mother has left him. That love shield, however it was produced, it seems obvious that was the last guift of his mother... a guift that, furthermore, saved his life. Then there are those green eyes, "the eyes of his mother" - more references, I think, than I can care to hunt down. Also, we don't really know what his mother was like personality-wise, but we *do* know what his father was like (by the teachers's descriptions, more similar to Greg and Forge than to Harry), so it is possible that Harry is more like his mother in personality. It's interesting that all these things are more spiritual than physical in nature (yes, even the eyes - the eyes are traditionally "mirrors of the soul" and other such indications of the true self). Where his father has given him all manner of physical guifts (money, cloak, his body, maybe the quidditch abilities - although I personally doubt it -, the map, etc.), his mother has guifted him with spiritual things - love shield, life, those eyes (and all the powers they might contain), maybe even his basic personality. But then, that's my guess. We don't really know enough about Lilly to tell one way or the other, except in the love shield case (and one single example hardly counts as basis for a theory). Still, I quite like it, considering I just improvised it. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 21:51:39 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 21:51:39 -0000 Subject: Harry's patronus, how many are there? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55044 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "weeoo0" wrote: > I've been wondering, what form did Harry's patronus take at the > ravenclaw quidditch match in PoA? > ...edited.. > > Weeoo0 bboy_mn: I didn't see anyone else point this out so I will, the only patronus ANYONE saw was the one Harry cast at the Ravenclaw Quidditch match. There was no one around the night of the Dementors; Dumbledore wasn't there, Lupin had run off, Snape, Sirius, Ron, and Hermione were passed out. So the only place Dumbledore or Lupin could have seen the Stag Patronus is at the quidditch match. Any conclusions they drew, they drew from that event and not the night of the Dementors. Just a thought. bboy_mn From siskiou at earthlink.net Wed Apr 9 21:58:32 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 14:58:32 -0700 Subject: Can Hermione conjure a patronus? was Re: [HPforGrownups] Hermione and Ron battles/Who could betray Harry?/Hermione's name In-Reply-To: <20030409145633.55821.qmail@web14506.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030409145633.55821.qmail@web14506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <100146684086.20030409145832@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 55045 Hi, Wednesday, April 09, 2003, 7:56:33 AM, Greicy wrote: > Only Hermione > knows how to conjure up a patronus because Harry taught her, although > it wasn't really a good time to teach anything. Maybe I'm missing an important scene, but I can't for my life remember that Harry taught Hermione how to conjure a patronus or that she ever had a chance to try if she could. Can you tell me where in the books this comes up, please? -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From flamingstarchows at att.net Wed Apr 9 22:13:19 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (FlamingStar Chows) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 17:13:19 -0500 Subject: Can Hermione conjure a patronus? References: <20030409145633.55821.qmail@web14506.mail.yahoo.com> <100146684086.20030409145832@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <00a601c2fee5$3ac2b540$fe1a570c@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 55046 ----- Original Message ----- From: Susanne Maybe I'm missing an important scene, but I can't for my life remember that Harry taught Hermione how to conjure a patronus or that she ever had a chance to try if she could. ----Me---- In Capter 20 of PoA when the dementors started toward Harry and Hermione, Harry did try to get Hermione to help him. He basically told her to think a happy thought and the words to say. Hermione was not successful and passed out as the many dementors approached. ~Cathy~ From siskiou at earthlink.net Wed Apr 9 22:23:48 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 15:23:48 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Can Hermione conjure a patronus? In-Reply-To: <00a601c2fee5$3ac2b540$fe1a570c@pavilion> References: <20030409145633.55821.qmail@web14506.mail.yahoo.com> <100146684086.20030409145832@earthlink.net> <00a601c2fee5$3ac2b540$fe1a570c@pavilion> Message-ID: <164148197544.20030409152348@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 55047 Hi, Wednesday, April 09, 2003, 3:13:19 PM, FlamingStar wrote: > He basically told her to > think a > happy thought and the words to say. Hermione was not successful and > passed > out as the many dementors approached. Thanks! I'd almost forgotten that part, but I'm not surprised she didn't succeed. After all, it wasn't a very extensive explanation ;) Unless Hermione got lessons later on, I doubt she could do much better now. It took Harry quite a few tries before he was able to do this. I wonder at what level Hogwarts *does* start teaching their students how to defend against dementors. Or could this be something that isn't taught at school at all and you have to take private lessons to learn it later? -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 22:46:14 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 22:46:14 -0000 Subject: Can Hermione conjure a patronus? In-Reply-To: <164148197544.20030409152348@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55048 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susanne wrote: > ...edited... > > I wonder at what level Hogwarts *does* start teaching their > students how to defend against dementors. > Or could this be something that isn't taught at school at > all and you have to take private lessons to learn it later? > > -- > Best regards, > Susanne mailto:siskiou at e... bboy_mn: According to Lupin, the Patronus is 'well beyond Ordinary Wizarding Levels (OWLs)' which would imply 6th year at the earliest and more likely 7th year. bboy_mn From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 23:23:56 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 23:23:56 -0000 Subject: If Dumbledore were an Animagus, or even a Polymagus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55049 Briony wrote: McGonagall can certainly take more than one animal shape, so why shouldn't Dumbledore? Finwitch wrote: Hmm.. I don't know if McConagall can take more than one shape; I've only read of her being a cat. I don't discount the possibility of taking many forms, even one of choice, but so far there's nothing to say that even the first form can be chosen by the wizard. I reply: I agree with Finwitch here, but would like to expand a little bit. Without having the books handy, I believe that there's a substantial difference between transfiguring oneself into an animal, and the animagical transformation. An animagus can transform at will into an animal, or rather, a specific animal. From interviews with the author, we have a decent idea that this shape is determined by factors in one's personality, and is really not a matter of personal preference or choice. At www.mugglenet.com, JKR suggests just that: Q: If you were Animagus, what kind of animal would you be? A: I'd like to be an otter-- that's my favorite animal. It would be depressing if I turned out to be a slug or something. In other words, JKR seems to believe that she might possibly end up as a slug, and since one could argue that it's unlikely that she'd *choose* this form deliberately, I conclude that the animagical form one takes isn't up to the individual witch or wizard, and once the magic is completed, the transformation can take place at will, without the casting of a spell. Now, we also have evidence to suggest that transfiguration is also a possible method of assuming an animal form. In GoF, Second Task, Krum tries to transfigure himself into a shark, that he might go underwater to rescue his hostage. But the transformation goes awry. Accordingly, he ends up as a shark-man hybrid sort-of creature. In other words, you can *try* to transfigure yourself into a specific form. This magic, however, is quite different from an animagus' abilities, as transfiguring yourself requires the casting of a spell, whereas an animagus doesn't need to cast a spell but can transform at will. As for Dumbledore possessing the animagical abilities, I gotta confess that I'd be highly disappointed if he did. Granted, there are six animagi (in addition to McGonagall) from "this" century that are registered with the Ministry that are as yet unaccounted for. And Hermione didn't mention any of them in the Shrieking Shack. And Dumbledore *is* old, like 150 years or so, right, so he could have been registered from the "last" century and might not even have been on the list that Hermione checked, unless there's some sort of `rollover effect' or something. So, these six animagi are unexploited plotwise, as of yet. But, we already have 4 illegal animagi on record in canon: Wormtail, Padfoot, Prongs and Rita Skeeter. And Dumbledore aside, I'd be disappointed if we find out about too many more animagi period ? about as disappointed as I was watching Mission: Impossible 2, when the characters kept pulling off those plastic face masks ad nauseam. The device just becomes tired if it's used too often, and there's got to be a saturation point with the animagi that we're approaching quickly, IMHO. I think that I could stand one, maybe two more. But that's it - after that, I think that the plotlines will start to lose credibility if they rely too heavily on animagi to save/destroy the day. -Tom From devonturcotte at yahoo.ca Wed Apr 9 22:15:01 2003 From: devonturcotte at yahoo.ca (devonturcotte) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 22:15:01 -0000 Subject: Query about Neville In-Reply-To: <000a01c2fe25$65b80900$57a7a7cb@oemcomputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55050 Quote from Briony: "I keep wondering as to why Neville was sorted into Gryffindor. Since herbology is his best subject, he would be more suited for Hufflepuff. Is there some potential about Neville that the Sorting Hat picked up, but Neville hasn't found yet?" I think that part of the Sorting Hat's job is to identify the potential in the individual. There has been some discussion about Peter Pettigrew's house placement as of late, and I think that the same answer applies in both cases, if you want to argue that Pettigrew was in Gryffindor. (This is the argument I side with, because I don't believe that the rest of the Marauders would have spent any time with a Slytherin. They were all very adamantly fighting Dark magic, and Voldemort, of course placed in Slytherin House, would have been gaining power while they were still in school.) Neville certainly has come from the right gene pool to be a Gryffindor, given his parents' careers as very successful Aurors, so perhaps the potential is there. I think the point made in another reply (I'm sorry, I don't remember who it was now!) about Neville possibly "asking" the Sorting Hat to place him in Gryffindor is probably the other part of what the Hat is looking for--the balance between genetics and circumstances that makes up the individual personality. Devon :o) From devonturcotte at yahoo.ca Wed Apr 9 22:25:44 2003 From: devonturcotte at yahoo.ca (devonturcotte) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 22:25:44 -0000 Subject: What house Peter was sorted into. In-Reply-To: <007101c2fec5$25a88a10$9865fea9@brown> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55051 Quote from Sheila: > I always thought that Peter was put into Gryffindor only because of his > friendship with Remus, James, & Sirius. I can't see him being sorted > anywhere else. The Sorting Hat could of had two choices of where to put him, > just like Harry. I see the Sorting Ceremony in my mind and it could be > anyone.... like one of those personality tests. You have both > characteristics or qualities of something but more of one than the other. > > Did I make sense? > > Sheila. > http://aliehs.com Sheila, I love your comparison of the Sorting ceremony to a personality test. I think that's *exactly* what it is. Although, I got the impression that Peter, James, Sirius and Remus became friends *at* Hogwarts. I agree with some others here that there was something good in Peter. I actually don't think he's that different from Neville Longbottom. They are both clumsy, not very talented and underrated. And when the true fight against Voldemort began, I think that Peter *did* start out on the good side. I think where he and Neville differ is that Neville will make good choices, and Peter has not done that. With the same potential, Neville will try his best, and remain honourable, where Peter gave in to his weaknesses and bought into everything Voldemort promised him. Basically, I think that Peter was never recognized or given any positive criticism. McGonagall herself said that she felt horrible for scolding him so much (in PoA, during the conversation between all the professors, Hagrid and Rosmerta about the Potters' Secret- Keeper). He probably felt that Voldemort would finally give him due recognition. Can you imagine how much of a confidence-booster Dumbledore gave Neville at the end of their first year, giving him 10 points for standing up to his friends? What might have happened to little Peter Pettigrew if he'd had similar encouragement? Devon :o) From erikal at magma.ca Thu Apr 10 00:21:17 2003 From: erikal at magma.ca (Erika Lachapelle) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 19:21:17 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's Name Message-ID: <01dd01c2fef7$1b20b220$f801bfce@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 55052 Greicy wrote: BTW, has anyone read The Winter's Tale by Shakespeare? JKR got Hermione's name from there and I wanted to know if there maybe a clue about Hermione. I have it, but I just can't get into it. Me: I read "A Winter's Tale" in my full-year Shakespeare course a few years back. In the play, Hermione is the wife of Leontes the of King Sicilia. She has a son by the name of Mamillius and is pregnant as well. Leontes, for no real reason, (at least as far as I remember) becomes insanely jealous and believes she may be having an affair with his friend Polixenes the King of Bohemia (which she is not). Eventually, he goes into a rage and Polixenes flees for his life while Hermione is thrown into prison. Shortly thereafter, she gives birth to a daughter and, according to her attendant Paulina, dies in the process. She is not seen again until the final scene of the play. At the end on the play, some fifteen or sixteen years later, Leontes has come to regret his unwarranted jealousy and finally made up with Polixenes and finally accepted his daughter Perdita (who had been left for dead in Bohemia, coincidentally enough). In any case, after all this has happened Paulina leads Leontes to a room in which she has what seems to be a statue made in the image of Hermione- but a Hermione who has aged some fifteen years. She ask Leontes if he will accept her and, when he does, Paulina speaks to the "statue" and Hermione returns to life. Leontes is thus reconciled with his wife, his friend Polixenes, and his daughter who is to marry Polixenes' heir and thus bring the two kingdoms together and achieve comic resolution. I've left out a great deal for the sake of brevity, but that's the limit of Hermione's involvement in the play IIRC. I don't know if that really sheds any light on Rowling's Hermione, though. I thought I read an interview somewhere in which Rowling said that her Hermione wasn't meant to have much in common with Shakespeare's. The idea was to choose a name that a pair of dentists might choose in order to show off, but also one that was unusual enough so that a real little girl wouldn't get teased for having a name similar to Rowling's creation. Has anyone seen an interview that said something to that effect? The only parallel that I can see off the top is the whole idea of Hermione being turned into a statue- reminds one of the petrification incident in CoS a little, doesn't it? Hope that helped Erika (Wolfraven) -who enjoyed dusting off her huge volume of Shakespeare's collected works [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From erikal at magma.ca Thu Apr 10 01:05:50 2003 From: erikal at magma.ca (Erika Lachapelle) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 20:05:50 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] On Why Hermione is a Gryffindor Message-ID: <022001c2fefd$5486da20$f801bfce@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 55053 Carolyn wrote: I think Hermione could fit easily into either Ravenclaw or Gryffindor, just as Harry could fit easily into Gryffindor or Slytherin. Just because Hermione is very smart and values wisdom, she values bravery more, just as she says. Just as Dumbledore says in CoS, Chapter 18, page 333, "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." That's when Harry is wondering why he wasn't put in Slyterin. Me: I agree that Hermione values more than just wisdom. However, I would also like to add another quote from PS/SS from when we first meet Hermione on the Hogwarts Express: "Do either of you know what house you'll be in? I've been asking around and I hope I'm in Gryffindor, it sounds by far the best, I hear Dumbledore himself was one, but I suppose Ravenclaw wouldn't be too bad..." p79-80 Canadian edition We hear right from Hermione's mouth that she _wanted_ to be in Gryffindor. If choice is as important as Dumbledore says it is in the famous abovementioned CoS quote, then Hermione's desire to be in Gryffindor should have had some weight with the Sorting Hat. After all, Ravenclaw was only her second choice. I can't help but picture her sitting on the stool with the Sorting Hat on her head chanting "Gryffindor, Gryffindor" just as Harry was chanting "Not Slytherin, not Slytherin..." It seems to me that she chose to be in Gryffindor house just as much as Harry did. Erika (Wolfaven) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pantalaimone at yahoo.com.au Thu Apr 10 00:03:44 2003 From: pantalaimone at yahoo.com.au (=?iso-8859-1?q?Quinn=20Dexter?=) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 10:03:44 +1000 (EST) Subject: A new take on Peter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030410000344.65739.qmail@web13309.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55054 Every time I read PoA, I am reminded of George Orwell's novel '1984' (a British modern classic, for those who don't know - go and read it!) At the time of the Marauders, the Wizarding world seems to be a police state. Death Eaters roam the place at will, no one can knock off Lord Voldemort; very much reminiscent of Big Brother and the Thoughtpolice. Peter has always reminded me of Winston Smith, a brave man who begins the book dissatified with the current situation. However, his treasonous thoughts are discovered and he is broken. The end of the book has him praising Big Brother. Peter, who I believe was in Gryffindor, was brave. For those who've forgotten, he used to roam the Forbidden Forest with a WEREWOLF! However, he was caught by Voldemort and broken so that he may be used as a tool in the wizarding world. He hates what he does, but his spirit is too broken to fight back (aka Winston in the torture room - "Do it to Julia!") Considering the obvious parallels between the two situations, it is highly unlikely that this is just a co-incidence. Especially when you consider that '1984' was written at the end of WW2 by a British writer, so it's very probable that JK Rowling has read the book. Quinn Dexter - the Antichrist --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mobile - Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone mobile. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From debmclain at yahoo.com Thu Apr 10 00:26:19 2003 From: debmclain at yahoo.com (Debbie) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 00:26:19 -0000 Subject: Wizard Grandparents & long life? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55055 Hi All! I have a question here that I've been wanting to ask (but then forgot), which someone just brought up in a recent post. Okay, DD is 150 years old, which I interpreted as not being uncommon. Why have we not heard about other older people - like great-grandma Weasley? My thought has been that they were all killed during Voldemort's first rise to power. You know, the "I've lived my life, so let me sacrifice so you can live" speech. Maybe they were all killed earlier by Grindelwald in 1945 (remember DD's chocolate frog card?). You would think otherwise there would be a huge amount of older wizarding people. What about Mudbloods/halfbloods? Do they live long too, or is it cut shorter because of parentage? Someone did mention to me that since the world is viewed through Harry, there are probably some, but he just never mentions it. However, again, you would think Ron would say something about great- grandma Weasley and either that she's dead, alive, or estranged from the family. Anyway, just a few thoughts. Wanted to hear what you all think. I'm sorry if this has been discussed at length before, which I'm sure it has, but I haven't seen anything about it within the year. -Debbie From debmclain at yahoo.com Thu Apr 10 00:33:33 2003 From: debmclain at yahoo.com (Debbie) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 00:33:33 -0000 Subject: OoP Summary/Spoiler at TLC? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55056 Have you seen the OoP summary from Scholastic posted at The Leaky Cauldron? Are we "allowed" to discuss this here? I'm not so sure Arabella Figg will be the DADA teacher now. -Debbie From richasi at azlance.com Thu Apr 10 00:43:23 2003 From: richasi at azlance.com (Richasi) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 20:43:23 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OoP Summary/Spoiler at TLC? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55057 > Have you seen the OoP summary from Scholastic posted at The Leaky > Cauldron? Are we "allowed" to discuss this here? Even if we are not, the only thing I'm going to say about it is simply: WOW. Even with a spoiler or two it has only fired me up more. I can't wait, now more than ever, for that book to come out! Richasi From kristen at sanderson-web.com Thu Apr 10 00:44:33 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (GKJPO) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 00:44:33 -0000 Subject: Professor Trelawney's "experience" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55058 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "devonturcotte" wrote: > For me, I just always took Trelawney's statement as meaning she has > experience in "seeing." She can see that Harry is obviously having > some kind of vision that ends in him clutching his scar. I don't > think it goes any deeper than that. I don't know that anyone knows > anything about a curse scar like Harry's. No one's ever had one > before. > This is how I interpreted it too the other gagillion - 1 times I read it, but if you read the passage literally, I don't think she's saying that. Though, regardless of the interpretation, I still feel that the scene has some major foreshadowing. Harry will at some point figure out that his scar has more powers and it may very well be Trelawney that helps him (probably unwittingly). >Has anyone else noticed > that Harry's predictions are always right? > I wonder if this points to Harry's possible future as and Auror or > even a true Seer? > > devonturcotte Yes, I believe it's been discussed on and off. It is also pointed out that Ron's predictions also come true. Though I can't remember all the details or the threads. Kristen From kristen at sanderson-web.com Thu Apr 10 00:57:12 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (GKJPO) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 00:57:12 -0000 Subject: Query about Neville In-Reply-To: <000a01c2fe25$65b80900$57a7a7cb@oemcomputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55059 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Briony Coote" wrote: > I keep wondering as to why Neville was sorted into Gryffindor. Since > herbology is his best subject, he would be more suited for Hufflepuff. > Is there some potential about Neville that the Sorting Hat picked up, > but Neville hasn't found yet? If so, the most likely reason is that he > doesn't believe in himself. But we have seen sparks of his potential. > Remember the courage he found in standing up to HRH, and won 10 points > for Gryffindor? Or the time he fought the Boggart? The first time he > was extremely scared, but when he found that he was successful, and had > a good laugh in putting Snape in drag, he came up very determinably for > the second time. > > Briony > My opinion is that Neville had a memory charm put on him by his parents' attackers. This has interfered with his development, but the personality is still there. I have been wondering about GoF. Fake!Moody who, if you believe the court scene, was one of the Longbottom's attackers, also worked to take Neville under his wing. I've been wondering if the demonstration of the Unforgivable Curses shook something loose in Neville's brain to help him get better. JKR mentioned Neville and his mental state several times during GoF (could have been just leading up to Harry's witnessing of the trial too, but I wonder...). Back to your question, I think the sorting hat sorts on potential and choices. You must have the qualities or the potential for the qualities of a house to get put there. Some people have raised Harry's sorting as an example, but Harry had qualities of both Slytherin and Gryffindor - hence the choice. The option of choosing Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff was never presented to Harry. The quote from Neville's sorting: "When Neville Longbottom, the boy who kept losing his toad was called, he fell over on his way to the stool. The hat took a long time to decide with Neville. When it finally shouted, "GRYFFINDOR," Neville ran off still wearing it..." (p 120 SS US) This implies that Neville either had a choice or that his potential was difficult to detect. After all, how many of us know our full potential at 11? Kristen From purple_801999 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 10 01:32:54 2003 From: purple_801999 at yahoo.com (purple_801999) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 01:32:54 -0000 Subject: OoP Summary/Spoiler at TLC? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55060 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Debbie" wrote: > Have you seen the OoP summary from Scholastic posted at The Leaky > Cauldron? Are we "allowed" to discuss this here? > > I'm not so sure Arabella Figg will be the DADA teacher now. > > -Debbie Must. Have. Book. NOW. I dunno about Figg. If she spent all those years undercover she must be one tough cookie. I just don't know if they mean 'poison honey' in a good or bad way. I figured there would be a summary of some sort for the new book that would give us some hints of what to expect. Admittedly they could have just given us nothing but the release date and there would still be hordes of people storming the gates of booksellers at midnight. Now let the disection of this tidbit of information begin! From trondmm-hp4gu at crusaders.no Thu Apr 10 01:35:57 2003 From: trondmm-hp4gu at crusaders.no (Trond Michelsen) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 03:35:57 +0200 Subject: Please, no spoilers for book 5 In-Reply-To: ; from debmclain@yahoo.com on Thu, Apr 10, 2003 at 12:33:33AM -0000 References: Message-ID: <20030410033557.C6830@crusaders.no> No: HPFGUIDX 55061 On Thu, Apr 10, 2003 at 12:33:33AM -0000, Debbie wrote: > Have you seen the OoP summary from Scholastic posted at The Leaky > Cauldron? Are we "allowed" to discuss this here? I really, really, really, really hope it's not allowed. This thread has already revealed too much for my liking. -- // Trond Michelsen \X/ mike at crusaders.no From grosich at nyc.rr.com Thu Apr 10 01:42:44 2003 From: grosich at nyc.rr.com (Gina R Rosich) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 21:42:44 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OoP Summary/Spoiler at TLC? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55062 On 4/9/03 9:32 PM, "purple_801999" had this to say: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Debbie" wrote: >> > Have you seen the OoP summary from Scholastic posted at The Leaky >> > Cauldron? Are we "allowed" to discuss this here? >> > >> > I'm not so sure Arabella Figg will be the DADA teacher now. >> > >> > -Debbie > > > Must. Have. Book. NOW. > > Ok. I thought perhaps posting the entire ?article? here with SPOILER SPACE might be a good idea. That way anyone who wants to read it, doesn?t have to go to the website. And anyone who doesn?t want to read it will not be spoiled. Perhaps we should use spoiler space for this discussion? Moderators? Anyway, here goes: S P O I L E R S P A C E F O R O O P I C A N ? T W A I T ! Begin transmission: Summary of Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix As seen in the Summer/Fall 2003 Scholastic catalog "I say to you all, once again ? in the light of Lord Voldemort?s return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. Lord Voldemort?s gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust.? So spoke Albus Dumbledore at the end of Harry Potter?s fourth year at Hogwarts. But as Harry enters his fifth year at wizard school, it seems those bonds have never been more sorely tested. Lord Voldemort?s rise has opened a rift in the wizarding world between those who believe the truth about his return, and those who prefer to believe it?s all madness and lies ? just more trouble from Harry Potter. Add this to a host of other worries for Harry? * A Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher with a personality like poisoned honey * A venomous, disgruntled house-elf * Ron as keeper of the Gryffindor Quidditch team * And of course, what every student dreads: end-of-term Ordinary Wizarding Level exams ?and you?d know what Harry faces during the day. But at night it?s even worse, because then he dreams of a single door in a silent corridor. And this door is somehow more terrifying than every other nightmare combined. In the richest installment yet of J.K. Rowling?s seven-part story, Harry Potter confronts the unreliability of the very government of the magical world, and the impotence of the authorities at Hogwarts. Despite this (or perhaps because of it) Harry finds depth and strength in his friends, beyond what even he knew; boundless loyalty, and unbearable sacrifice. Though thick runs the plot (as well as the spine), readers will race through these pages, and leave Hogwarts, like Harry, wishing only for the next train back. ~*~ IN ADDITION, the book gives more text of the opening lines: The hottest day of the summer so far was drawing to a close and a drowsy silence lay over the large, square houses of Privet Drive. ... The only person left outside was a teenage boy who was lying flat on his back...[fades out] End Aren?t we all just going?Oh My God?!?! Gina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Thu Apr 10 01:45:27 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 01:45:27 -0000 Subject: OoP Summary/Spoiler at TLC? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55063 Assuming that discussion of this teaser is not not allowed by the HPFGU administrators - A lot of the summary seemed to live up to what I've been hoping for from this upcoming novel, with one interesting and very unexpected twist: "A venomous, disgruntled house-elf" So, do we think that this is meant to be Dobby, Winky, or some new house elf that we haven't encountered yet? For now, I'm thinking that Winky goes berserk after the events at the end of book 4, and that she decides to take some revenge... probably, she might even blame Harry and his friends for 'meddling' in her previously pleasant and devoted life to the Crouch family. And I'm not dismissing the possibility that it could be Dobby, but that would mean that something dreadful would have to happen plotwise to make him turn against Harry. Oooh. Man, I'll tell ya, I can already see the insanity starting to build in my fragile little mind. I don't think I've anticipated anything, ANYTHING like I'm anticipating this. -Tom From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Thu Apr 10 02:05:27 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 02:05:27 -0000 Subject: 50 Questions I would like answered in Books Five, Six, and Seven In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55064 Replies to Queen of Serpents, Catlady, and Greicy in this post. Queen of Serpents wrote: 16) Will Hagrid's name be formally cleared? I reply: Do you mean cleared with reference to opening the Chamber of Secrets, or with reference to being a half-giant. `Cause he is a half-giant, so I don't see that as a real possibility. As for opening the Chamber of Secrets, wasn't he already cleared? In CoS, Fudge tells us that "If someone else is caught, you'll be let out with a full apology." (CoS, US paperback Ch.14, 261) And by PoA, Hagrid is back with bells on, and teaching a class to boot. I'd say that this constitutes a clearing of Hagrid's name. Catlady asked: 7) Is Professor Sinistra a witch or a wizard? I reply: I believe that canon definitely suggests that Professor Sinistra is a witch, because Crouch!Moody dances with her at the Yule Ball in GoF. Catlady asked: 17) Is there ever a Muggle-born student Sorted into Slytherin? How do they stand the abuse from the purebloodists? I reply: Well, we know of one very famous Mudblood that was sorted into Slytherin ? Tom Riddle. As for whether or not there are others, well, I agree that it would be an uncomfortable situation for them. In CoS, we learn that the password to the Slytherin common room was actually 'pureblood' for a while, so that doesn't seem to pleasant a state of affairs for a half-blood student. But it doesn't discount the possibility. After all, a half-blood, like Tom Riddle, could still turn out to be bigoted enough to join up with the pure-blood cause. Greicy asked: 46) Is Fudge a "Voldemortist", or just in denial of his return because he's a wimp? Is Bagman a "Voldemortist"? I reply: By `Voldemortist,' do you mean `Death Eater?' Because, if you do mean `Death Eater' I don't think that we have evidence to conclude that either Fudge or Bagman are involved with Voldemort's, ahem, organization... except for Fudge's reluctance to believe Dumbledore and Harry in the Parting of the Ways chapter of GoF, which is dubious evidence at best, IMHO. I think that it's unlikely that either is a Death Eater because of the situation that existed back at the Triwizard Tournament. Fudge was definitely present upon Harry's return. As for Bagman, well, there's more leeway regarding him. Judging by the chaotic state of affairs we see upon Harry's return from the Portkey, I conclude that both Fudge and Bagman *could* have found a way to sneak off to the Graveyard if/when they felt their own marks burn. But Fudge is right there when Harry gets back, and it would have been pretty impossible for him to get back *that* quickly, given that one can't apparate on the Hogwarts grounds. So, I don't think that Fudge is a Death Eater, because he could probably have slipped off in the confusion, but didn't. And has been discussed previously, it's likely that Voldemort wouldn't accept any excuses. He calls, you go. Simple as that. As for Fudge's denial, we have to accept that as far as WW public opinion might go, Dumbledore does have a credibility gap here, as does Harry. *We* know, trust, and love Dumbledore. But let's face it, there are many in the WW that might not idolize him the way that we do. He has made some "poor" decisions (Lupin, Hagrid) that *we* understand, but that the public might not. AND, he has been maligned by, amongst others, the highly influential Lucius Malfoy, as well as the highly influential Rita Skeeter. Didn't she actually refer to him as an `obsolete dingbat,' or something to that effect? Heck, even Mrs. Weasley, who knows that Skeeter `goes out of her way to cause trouble,' even that same Mrs. Weasley snubs Hermione as a result of one of Skeeter's articles. And she should know better. I firmly believe that this is going to be important to future plotlines. So, whereas *we* know that Harry is telling the truth, because we were there, and whereas *we* trust Dumbledore, Fudge is taking the stance that a majority of the WW might not believe that Voldemort has returned, based on the possibly disturbed (fits, pains in the scar, and a history of crazy stories) Harry's shaky credibility in addition to the lack of any other credible witnesses. In addition, Fudge knows (and Dumbledore confirms) that a large portion of the WW will not approve of contacting the giants, or dismissing the dementors from Azkaban. Let's just hope that Rita Skeeter really keeps her mouth shut, otherwise Dumbledore's going to be up the creek without a paddle: cavorting with a wanted murderer, interfering at the Ministry of Magic ? this stuff is just ripe to be exploited. Plus, with this new spoiler, well, it all just sounds deliciously ominous. -Tom From patricia at obscure.org Thu Apr 10 03:52:02 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 23:52:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Please, no spoilers for book 5 In-Reply-To: <20030410033557.C6830@crusaders.no> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55065 On Thu, 10 Apr 2003, Trond Michelsen wrote: > On Thu, Apr 10, 2003 at 12:33:33AM -0000, Debbie wrote: > > Have you seen the OoP summary from Scholastic posted at The Leaky > > Cauldron? Are we "allowed" to discuss this here? > > I really, really, really, really hope it's not allowed. This thread has > already revealed too much for my liking. I agree. I'd rather find out what happens when I read the book. There's a difference between speculating on what will happen in Book 5 and being told what happens before the we even get a chance to look at it. If discussion of the summary is going to happen, would people pleasepleaseplease put *lots* of spoiler space in the message and use a subject line that clearly states the summary is going to be discussed? ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Thu Apr 10 04:15:31 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 04:15:31 -0000 Subject: A new take on Peter In-Reply-To: <20030410000344.65739.qmail@web13309.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55066 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Quinn Dexter wrote: > > Every time I read PoA, I am reminded of George Orwell's > novel '1984' (a British modern classic, for those who don't know - go > and read it!) > > > At the time of the Marauders, the Wizarding world seems to be a > police state. Death Eaters roam the place at will, no one can knock > off Lord Voldemort; very much reminiscent of Big Brother and the > Thoughtpolice. > But unlike 1984's Big Brother, Voldemort never goes unchallenged - a strong opposition fights his every move, headed by Dumbledore, James Potter and Barty Crouch Sr., et al. Voldemort is never Big Brother, he is at best a successful terrorist. Rowling implies that the tragedy of Crouch is that he adopted his adversary's methods in trying to suppress the DE menace and descended to Voldemort's moral level. And surely Peter Pettigrew of all people does not share Winston Smith's phobia of rats! - CMC From vinnia_chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz Thu Apr 10 04:27:52 2003 From: vinnia_chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz (=?iso-8859-1?q?Vinnia=20Chrysshallie?=) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 16:27:52 +1200 (NZST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OoP Summary/Spoiler at TLC? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030410042752.89053.qmail@web41213.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55067 Discussion on book 5 summary ahead! S P O I L E R S P A C E F O R O O P I C A N T W A I T ! --- Tom Wall wrote: "A venomous, disgruntled house-elf" So, do we think that this is meant to be Dobby, Winky, or some new house elf that we haven't encountered yet? For now, I'm thinking that Winky goes berserk after the events at the end of book 4, and that she decides to take some revenge... probably, she might even blame Harry and his friends for 'meddling' in her previously pleasant and devoted life to the Crouch family. Me: I think this is Winky. I agree that Winky will blame Harry. Harry forced Crouch Jr. to reveal the family secret. We know that Winky take the obligation not to speak ill of the family very seriously. I don't think she will seek revenge directly at Harry, though. I mean, not hexing Harry or anything like that. She might speak ill of Harry in the kitchen, resulting in fights with Dobby. The other house-elf might listen to Winky instead of Dobby, because let's face it, the other elves don't think much of Dobby. Harry will have a hard time when he visits the kitchen! Oh, I don't think it's Dobby. I think he will have a role later onto save Harry, giving the moral that a creature that no-one values, can indeed save the world! This summary also makes me wonder about the new DADA teacher. Either 1. She is nice and sweet, but actually is evil. 2. She acts sweet, but a very strict teacher. 1. Can Dumbledore really be fooled again? He would certainly select the teacher carefully, given the incident the previous year. He would also want a very well qualified teacher, now that the students need a good grounding in fighting darks arts more than ever! What does everyone think about this teacher? Vinnia http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile - Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone mobile. From Audra1976 at aol.com Thu Apr 10 04:44:32 2003 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 00:44:32 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OoP Summary/Spoiler at TLC? Message-ID: <54.eb1c4e4.2bc650b0@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55068 I'm going to talk about something that is said in the summary so, S P O I L E R . . . S P A C E purple_801999 at yahoo.com writes: > I dunno about Figg. If she spent all those years undercover she must > be one tough cookie. I just don't know if they mean 'poison honey' in > a good or bad way. Me: I've never heard the term "poisoned honey" used in a good way. Actually I think the term is possibly from MacBeth. I could be wrong. But I digress, I've always heard it used when someone is acting superficially sweet, but they really have bad intentions. And I also wouldn't rule out Mrs. Figg. We don't really know what her personality is really like. -Audra- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Thu Apr 10 05:03:26 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 05:03:26 -0000 Subject: Every Day A Riddle Death (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55069 Every Day A Riddle Death (from PoA) To the tune of Every Day a Little Death, from Sondheim's A Riddle ? I mean, A Little Night Music Dedicates to Suzanne Chiles Hear a MIDI at: http://www.broadwaymidi.com/shows/little_night_music.html THE SCENE: Gryffindor Commons. HARRY ponders the "secondary gain" of his inability to stave off the dementors. HARRY Every day a Riddle death Of my mother, of my dad In the Hollow, in our dwelling Full of sorrow and so sad Every day a Riddle doom Fogs my heart and fogs my head, Every `mentor's rattling breath (How it plucks them from their tomb!) Brings a direct Riddle death. He laughs coldly, mocks my mum Says he'll slaughter me. He could murder her right there, Yet still she pleads. He tells her to stand aside (Has my dad already died?) It is then I fall unconscious (Did she die?) I collapse into a faint When dementors near Yet I half-want them beside me To hear her It is stupid, it's insane Longing for her voice again This hallucinating business I abjure! Ah, well... (Unbeknownst to HARRY, his perfectly-formed PATRONUS seeps out of his wand, and accompanies him) HARRY & (PATRONUS) Every day a Riddle death (Every day a Riddle death) Of my mother, of my dad (Oh her lips and her green eyes,) In the Hollow, in our dwelling (Oh her murder, oh our losses) Full of sorrow and so sad (So much pressure, her demise) Every day a Potter cursed (Every day poor Harry dies) Fogs my heart and fogs my head (Voldy looks and Voldy lies.) Every `mentor's rattling breath BOTH: And as awful as at first Brings a direct Riddle death. - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From mdemeran at hotmail.com Thu Apr 10 05:08:47 2003 From: mdemeran at hotmail.com (Meg Demeranville) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 05:08:47 -0000 Subject: Another puzzle about Voldemort's wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55070 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "finwitch" wrote: > However, what do we except to see? The curse failed. It hit back to > Voldemort, saving Harry. Are you certain that the shadowy figures > beginning to pace around wasn't the echo of that failed spell? That > they encourage Harry, and whisper something to Voldemort? > Sure, enduring something or killing someone has given visible echo, > torture a scream (that was heard) - I don't see why the curse that > failed couldn't have been the one that made the figures pace around... > > Or maybe just that nothing happened? > > -- Finwitch Sorry, I didn't include enough information. The two shadowy figures are named specifically as Cedric and Frank earlier in the text. I was typing in a hurry this morning and omited that part. I think it's just missing. I think that it is possible that given the description of Bertha joining the others, that Harry failed to notice the reguitation of the failed curse. There seems to be more of an authorial gap in this description than there is in the first two descriptions. I would look it up for you, but I am not moving. Sorry, blame intramural volleyball. --Meg Read the untold story of life as a first year medical student at: As The Scalpel Turns - http://www.livejournal.com/users/megd/ From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Thu Apr 10 05:14:36 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 01:14:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OoP Summary/Spoiler at TLC? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030410051436.77780.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55071 O O T P S P O I L E R S A H E A D > A lot of the summary seemed > to live up to what I've been > hoping for from this upcoming > novel, Yes! Me too! I love the hint about the wizarding government, and am fascinated by the dream description. St. Mungo's anyone? > with one interesting > and very unexpected twist: > > "A venomous, disgruntled house-elf" Well, actually I did expect something of that sort. > So, do we think that this is meant to be Dobby, > Winky, or some new > house elf that we haven't encountered yet? Inventing a new house elf seems to me needlessy complicated, when Winky is set up so perfectly for the job. I found it interesting that she was never reconciled in GoF. She's brought to the final scene, and then she just disappears, without any indication of her reaction. So, I concluded her reaction can't be good for Harry. I'm delighted to see my suspicions confirmed in this summary. I quite like Winky as a character, though I refuse to ship her with Crouch Sr.! Now if Winky and Amos Diggory were to start blaming Harry for things... ouch! What really surprised me was the description of the DADA professor as someone with a personality like poisoned honey. That can't refer to her being ultimately good or bad, I think, since it's not like the summary is going to give away the plot. She must have that personality the moment she shows up. So what exactly does that mean? Poisoned honey is just not a positive descriptor. Will we have a teacher who doesn't like Harry? It's Mrs. Lestrange, I tell you! Well, it can't be, since that plot twist of the DE in disguise was already used in the previous book. I'm still plugging for Arabella Figg, but I admit the descriptor doesn't match the cat-lady of PS/SS. But we all know that was an act, so does it matter? > Man, I'll tell ya, I can already see the insanity > starting to build > in my fragile little mind. I don't think I've > anticipated anything, > ANYTHING like I'm anticipating this. Well, for me there was Star Wars: The Phantom Menace, when I was younger, but I'd really rather not talk about that. ;-) Eileen ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Thu Apr 10 06:03:55 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 02:03:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: TBAY Remus Lupin Is Ever So Dead WAS TBAY: DIMINISHED CAPACITIES (was: Humpty-Dumptying the Bangs) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030410060355.90604.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55072 "George, is there really a TBAY charter to protect Abigail?" asks Eileen disapointedly. George shrugs his shoulders. "I don't think you want to pick a quarrel with Abigail, whatever the charter is. I've heard she's one tough cookie. They say she once took on the MDDT by herself." "But it's not fair. I wasn't proposing too much carnage" says Eileen. "I only think Lupin will die. And Dumbledore. And Hagrid. And possibly Snape. And definitely Percy. And Voldemort. And Lucius Malfoy. And Peter Pettigrew. And Mrs. Lestrange. And Fudge will get his soul sucked out by a dementor. And sundry other deaths." There is a cry from the other side of the room. "Oh, now you've done it," mutters George. But Abigail rushes to Eileen, hugs her and begins dancing around the room. "Dead!Lupin! Dead!Lupin! You believe in him!" Her eyes are gilttering with excitement. "I thought I was the only one! Oh, do you think you could agree with me that Lupin is the horrible book 5 death? Could ya? Could ya? Huh?" Eileen runs her hand through her hair nervously. "Yeah," she says. "Yeah., I think Lupin's time is up." "We Need Badges!" cries Abigail in ecstacy. "Badges and an Acronym!" "I'm not sure I really want to wear a badge," says Eileen. "I... like Lupin. Quite a bit." "But you think he's going to die?" "I've known he's going to die since his appearance in PoA. Almost the first thing I thought about him was, "Darkling I listen and for many a time I have been half in love with easeful death." Lupin is already dead in a way. Cut off from society. Cut off from friends. Now cut off from Hogwarts and even, throughout GoF, cut off from Harry. He only needs to stop breathing to complete the process. And you know, if we're going to take this thing seriously, either Sirius or Lupin will die. Sirius is too much about resurrection, of life beginning again. Lupin's hair is greying, he looks tired. He's ready to take his rest. I've been hoping it won't be a Book V death, that he'd linger on a little, but your arguments are oh-so-persuasive in that direction." Eileen pauses. "I rather agree that JKR can't push all the deaths to the last books, and Lupin is the only person I see who can be quickly killed off. I think JKR could resolve things so that by the end of OotP another character is dead, but Lupin seems to already be in position. His death though will have to be linked with Pettigrew, since Lupin's thematic role is linked with Pettigrew. I still think that silver hand might be a problem here... And is Lupin unhappy enough to become a ghost?" Eileen ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From purple_801999 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 10 06:04:01 2003 From: purple_801999 at yahoo.com (purple_801999) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 06:04:01 -0000 Subject: OoP Summary/Spoiler at TLC? In-Reply-To: <20030410042752.89053.qmail@web41213.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55073 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Vinnia Chrysshallie wrote: > Discussion on book 5 summary ahead! > > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > S > P > A > C > E > F > O > R > O > O > P > I > C > A > N > ? > T > W > A > I > T > ! > > --- Tom Wall wrote: > > "A venomous, disgruntled house-elf" > > So, do we think that this is meant to be Dobby, Winky, > or some new house elf that we haven't encountered yet? > For now, I'm thinking that Winky goes berserk after > the events at the end of book 4, and that she decides > to take some revenge... probably, she might even blame > > Harry and his friends for 'meddling' in her previously > pleasant and devoted life to the Crouch family. > I think that would make a good chapter title: Chapter 12- Winky Goes Beserk. Vinnia- > I think this is Winky. I agree that Winky will blame > Harry. Harry forced Crouch Jr. to reveal the family > secret. We know that Winky take the obligation not to > speak ill of the family very seriously. > > I don't think she will seek revenge directly at Harry, > though. I mean, not hexing Harry or anything like > that. She might speak ill of Harry in the kitchen, > resulting in fights with Dobby. The other house-elf > might listen to Winky instead of Dobby, because let's > face it, the other elves don't think much of Dobby. > Harry will have a hard time when he visits the > kitchen! > Winky is the prime suspect. She'll probably be a red herring for someone who is truly menacing Harry. Or she maybe the real deal. If the DE are good enough for the Master, they might be good enough for Winky. And grief does funny things to people. Winky has nothing to loose now that the Crouch family is dead. > > This summary also makes me wonder about the new DADA > teacher. Either > 1. She is nice and sweet, but actually is evil. > 2. She acts sweet, but a very strict teacher. When I heard 'poison honey' I thought either it was someone who acted sweet, but was bitter and evil or it was someone pretending to be bitter and hateful but was secretly kind. As mean to Harry and sucked up to say, the MoM, but was really on Harry and Dumbledore's side. Now that Snape is (possibly, temporarily)out as the is he bad or good guy we need another morally ambiguous character about. The consesus seems to be that poison honey is not a good way to be described. Personally I think the questions about Snape will persist until the end of the series. Funny how everyone refers to the new DADA teacher as a she. Has that been confirmed or does the term 'poison honey' have a more feminine feel to it? > > Vinnia > Olivia Grey From t.forch at mail.dk Thu Apr 10 07:12:21 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 09:12:21 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OoP Summary/Spoiler at TLC? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030410090927.00d06220@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 55074 At 00:33 10-04-03 +0000, Debbie wrote: >Have you seen the OoP summary from Scholastic posted at The Leaky >Cauldron? Are we "allowed" to discuss this here? Everybody seems convinced that the thing is real - am I the only one who is in doubt (not for any specific reason - more on principle ;-) Troels From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Apr 10 07:28:56 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 07:28:56 -0000 Subject: MODS: Request Statement of SPOILER Policy. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55075 Since we are already on a roll, perhaps this would be a good time for the Moderators to remind everyone of the proper spoiler policy. I think among other things, any post that could have book information not yet read by some people, has to begin with- SPOILER:your subject heading here Could the moderators spell out everything for us? Thanks. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Apr 10 07:38:56 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 07:38:56 -0000 Subject: 50 Questions I would like answered in Books Five, Six, and Seven In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55076 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall" wrote: > Replies to Queen of Serpents, Catlady, > and Greicy in this post. > > > Queen of Serpents wrote: > 16) Will Hagrid's name be formally cleared? > > I reply: (Tom) > Do you mean cleared with reference to opening the Chamber of > Secrets, or with reference to being a half-giant. `Cause he is > a half-giant, so I don't see that as a real possibility. As for > opening the Chamber of Secrets, wasn't he already cleared? > > ...edited... > > -Tom I think the real question is not 'will he be cleared', but will he be made an official full-fledged wizard. I think it is accepted the Hagrid didn't have anything to do with opening the Chamber of Secrets, or the death or injuries to any of the students. In addition, as dangerous as Aragog the spirder may have been, I think it is also accepted that Aragog never hurt anyone. What hasn't been done is the official recognition of these events and the reversal of Hagrid's expulsion, and the clearing of his name in the official records. People now know he didn't do it, so in that sense his name is clear, but the official record haven't been changed to reflect that. Just a thought. bboy_mn From RSFJenny19 at aol.com Thu Apr 10 01:21:13 2003 From: RSFJenny19 at aol.com (RSFJenny19 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 21:21:13 EDT Subject: Dementors and Memory Charms(specifically Neville's) Message-ID: <6b.e683319.2bc62109@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55077 As I was just rereading the trip to Hogwarts in PoA, something interesting caught my eye and made me wonder this: Dementors leave you with your worst memories, but what if you'd been the recipient of a Memory Charm? Would you then be left with those memories? And when the dementor left, would you remember? The reason this came to mind is because on the Hogwarts Express when the Dementor comes into the compartment with Harry, Hermione, Ron, Ginny, Neville, and Lupin, three of them seem to be affected more than others. Obviously, Harry was affected, as we know that for Ginny it must've brought back the CoS memories, but Neville also looked very pale and spoke in a voice higher than usual. Ron is only described as being uncomfortable and scared , and Hermione only shows anxiety over Harry. This makes me wonder what Neville experienced when the dementor came in, working on the theory that he'd been the recipient of a Memory Charm... ~Jenny From ladyfarro at attbi.com Thu Apr 10 01:55:09 2003 From: ladyfarro at attbi.com (kae) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 18:55:09 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Query about Neville References: Message-ID: <06da01c2ff0d$a4a91f80$3caae10c@attbi.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55078 And another thing about Neville. As Harry discovers, Neville's parents were popular during Voldemort's reign of terror. Frank Longbottom was an auror, and Neville has a quiet courage all of his own. He visits his parents on vacation, even though they don't recognize him. I think he will come into his own, and be a dramatic part in the coming books. Kae From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Apr 10 09:05:42 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 09:05:42 -0000 Subject: Alectryomancy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55079 Scott wrote: > When harry buys unfogging the future the manager mentions several of > its chapters including methods of divination and...bird entrails! > > This just struck me as interesting because we know that the phoenix > is obviously important to the plot (or at least enough so to have > and order of something), and perhaps, just perhaps, fawkes could > having something to do with all this and be useful in divination.( > or any other phoenix) The process of alectryomancy is usually done > with a cock, but who knows the possibilities with a phoenix. > > I'm not saying that fawkes's entrails are what "order of the > phoenix" refers to (though that's certainly an interesting thought), > but it does seem likely that some connection could be made... > > perhaps having to do with the first true prediction? hmmm... Well, a dying phoenix would burn itself and reborn - where'd you *get* the phoenix entrails? But using a cocks entrails... Did Trelawney do that when possessed!Ginny killed all those cocks? And well, maybe Fawkes can do predictions from his own entrails? What about frog-entrails? Like that Neville managed to predict something ghastly when Snape told him to disembowl frogs? And there definately is *something* to Neville... A cock's song kills a basilisk - phoenix song encourages the pure- hearted and terrifies the evil ones... Maybe there is a connection? Magical song? -- Finwitch "Ah, music- magic beyond all that we teach here" From briony_coote at hotmail.com Thu Apr 10 08:43:20 2003 From: briony_coote at hotmail.com (Briony Coote) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 20:43:20 +1200 Subject: Order of the Phoenix, Sirius Black and Azkaban Message-ID: <000501c2ff3d$3d10e300$1d92fea9@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 55080 I believe that OOTP will bring the matter of proving (successfully or otherwise) Sirius' innocence to the fore, for three good reasons: 1. Sirius Black will be of more use to the Light Side if he is a free man, so proving his innocence will be one priority. 2. While he remains a fugitive, Sirius will be the weak link in the chain of the "old crowd." Voldemort could well try something (through Pettigrew and/or Skeeter) to have Sirius recaptured. And if word gets out that Dumbledore & Co. are protecting Sirius, they will be in big trouble and this would deal a death blow to the Light Side. 3. There is the matter of whether Azkaban will be broken open. Voldemort could engineer the recapture of Sirius Black as part of his plan to do this - especially if those Dementors get secretly removed. If the Dementors stay, then breaking Azkaban open will be much simpler. I also believe that the Dementors would be more of a threat than the imprisoned Deatheaters, so it will be more urgent to remove the Dementors than the imprisoned Deatheaters. We know that the Lestranges are alive (Voldemort said so), but goodness knows what their mental state is like. The Lestranges & Co. may have clung to some thought or other to keep them sane, as Sirius did. But one must also remember that Sirius also used his animagus form to give some relief from the Dementors' torture. To the best of my knowledge, the Lestranges & Co. are not animagi, so they would not have the extra edge that Sirius did. The Dementors, on the other hand "are Voldemort's natural allies" so they pose the greater of two evils. Briony [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Apr 10 08:34:06 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 08:34:06 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's clearance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55081 bboy_mn: > I think the real question is not 'will he be cleared', but will he be > made an official full-fledged wizard. > > I think it is accepted the Hagrid didn't have anything to do with > opening the Chamber of Secrets, or the death or injuries to any of the > students. Hagrid's name is cleared. I'm not certain if wizards even keep an official record to wipe off because of that. However, to become a full-fledged wizard, Hagrid must take OWLs at least, possibly NEWTs as well. So - I think Hagrid will be a student at Hogwarts - of Harry's year, in order to gain OWLs, to secure Harry and to be more of Madame Maxime's equal. However, even so, he'd not be quitting his teacher-job! It might be surprising about Hagrid, but who would have thought of Rubeus Hagrid having a date and inviting Harry to watch? -- Finwitch From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 10 11:15:38 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 11:15:38 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: New OOP: prefix and spoiler policy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55082 We expected this, but not so soon. ;-) Greetings from Hexquarters! As we all count down the days until the release of OoP, the Moderator Team has been huddled at Hexquarters, all of the entrances securely bolted and towels stuffed under the cracks beneath the doors. Nothing, we vowed, must disturb our careful deliberations and detailed preparations for This Blessed Event. Finally, the Mods have something to show for their hard work. We have decided how we will handle the issue of spoilers for the OoP release. Our view is that anyone who comes to a HP discussion group around the release of OoP really should expect to encounter spoilers. Lots and lots of spoilers. For that reason, we have decided *not* to require list members to use spoiler space at all. Instead, we are introducing a new prefix for subject headers, which will give members fair warning that the post contains OoP spoilers. Beginning today, we would like members to use the "OOP" prefix for any post to any of our lists that contains spoilers for OoP. For example, an appropriate subject header might be, "OOP: Harry, Sirius and Azkaban." Subject headers should not, of course, contain spoilers themselves -- "OOP: Sirius Dies At Azkaban!" rather defeats the point of the OoP prefix. Please begin using the new "OOP" prefix on all of our lists -- especially the main list and OT-Chatter -- beginning today. And remember, if you have any comments about any OoP release issues, holler at us at: hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com 71 days and counting, Pippy Elf, for the Mods From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 10 11:27:26 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 11:27:26 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: New OOP: prefix and spoiler policy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55083 As a commentary, I would like to thank all those list members who, in the absence of any Mod directive on the new OOP information, considerately avoided spoilers in their subject headings and used spoiler space in their messages. We hugely appreciate your consideration and common sense. A big 'thank you' from all the elves and moderators. Pippy Elf From imhotep1 at rcn.com Thu Apr 10 12:03:42 2003 From: imhotep1 at rcn.com (imhotep1) Date: 10 Apr 2003 05:03:42 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] How the Sorting Hat works (was: What house Peter was sorted into.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1049976223.5656.91.camel@princess> No: HPFGUIDX 55084 Quote from Sheila: > I see the Sorting Ceremony in my mind and it could be > anyone.... like one of those personality tests. You have both > characteristics or qualities of something but more of one than the > other. Perhaps the sorting hat isn't really as all knowing as all the children believe. Perhaps the sorting hat detects what house they want to be in, and sends them that way. With the kids who take a while, maybe they aren't sure, so the sorting hat has to ask them a few questions. If Harry does contain a some of Voldemort's power, this could have been why the sorting hat thought he should be Slytherin. Then his conversation with HP changed his choice to Gryffindor. Similarly, PP desire might have always been to be popular and respected, and REALLY wanted to be in Gryffindor, so that's how he was sorted. If someone can't make up their mind, perhaps the Sorting Hat simple picks a house at random, or possibly chooses based on what houses need more members. This could explain why the student ratios seem to be consistent between houses. If the Sorting Hat really isn't a soothsayer, or even one to probe very deeply in to the subconscious, I think it might imply that all students are capable of becoming anything, regardless of house. As DD said, "It is our choices... that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." Perhaps the Sorting Hat is more of a tool, it gives students who don't have a firm idea of what they want to become a destiny-of-sorts to live up to. -Jeremy From Nickamano at btinternet.com Thu Apr 10 11:08:10 2003 From: Nickamano at btinternet.com (Nick) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 11:08:10 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's clearance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55085 I'm beginning to think that "The Order of the Phoenix" might well be a name that (possibly) Dumbledore comes up with to define the group of allies that he brings together to fight off Voldemort's Death- Eaters. I also think Hagrid might well be too busy with the above to become a student again, maybe when things have quetened down (after the series of books is over? Sniff... sniff...) And Azkaban seems to me to be Voldemort's next logical step. All his allies are there (the Dementors more than the prisoners of course - as they're all insane... Unless V has the power to strighten their minds out?) Oh and Sirius Black can't be proved innocent without Pettigrew's confession and he's at V's right hand. Could be rather difficult to get hold of him (though it wouldn't be hard to get him to confess). Nickamano From basementgirl74 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 10 12:20:43 2003 From: basementgirl74 at yahoo.com (The Sparrow) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 05:20:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: book five stuff and a tear of goodbye..... Message-ID: <20030410122043.82317.qmail@web40512.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55086 Here's a few thoughts.....WARNING, BOOK 5 STUFF!!!! S P O I L E R S P A C E Okay: This disgruntled house-elf thing doesn't have to mean that the unpleasantness is aimed at Harry. It *could* be Dobby becoming more unpopular with the other elves, but I'm with the idea that it's Winky. JKR spent alot of time on Winky in GoF-more time than she spent with Dobby in his introductory book CoS. Winky is a strong-minded elf, she seems to take things more to heart than Dobby does. For Dobby, talking ill of his masters is against the law-for Winky, it's a moral obligation. I guess in this way they mirror the personalities of who owned them. Now to the DADA teacher. As Snape is one of my favourite characters and is linked with the DADA job, I felt real excitment when I learned it was to be a female teacher!(Surley the term 'poison honey' couldn't describe a male?) Vinnia wrote: 1. Can Dumbledore really be fooled again? He would certainly select the teacher carefully, given the incident the previous year. He would also want a very well qualified teacher, now that the students need a good grounding in fighting darks arts more than ever! I reply: I don't think Dumbledore has ever really been fooled. He's a trusting man, and a wise man, but he can't see all-that we know of!;) Quirrel was on the staff before he was 'joined' by Voldemort, so Dumbledore had no reason not to trust him. Although i do think he knew he was up to something, because Snape knew-and what he knows,DD knows. Lockhart sticks in my mind constantly as a bit of a standout boy. Surley DD wouldn't have hired him purely on his tales in his books. He is well known in the WW for his exploits and as we see at the Burrow he even has books on how to run a household (Gilderoy Lockhart's guide to household pests). Since every single person who would know his secret is obliviate-ed, there would be no Lockhart-is-a-fraud stories. And let's not forget-not many people seem to want to take the DADA job! I wonder if perhaps we'll see more of Lockhart (I think he's Pig myself), and further to that I wonder if he used a memory charm on anyone at Hogwarts while he was employed. Then there's Moody-fake or not. DD knows Moody is a great Auror-lots of people are in Azkzban because of him. Both Dumbledore and Arthur Weasley have respect for him-and that's enough for me to know he's O.K! I don't think DD was wrong to hire him, but I'm not yet certain how Crouch Jr. managed to keep himself unseen for so long. The new teacher could be character we haven't met yet. She is probably young, since the term 'poison honey' seems to conjour up(pardon the pun), a beautiful sweet-natured (or at least pleasant-natured) woman who has malice behind her. This would kind of spoil it to tell us the DADA teacher is evil straight away....... I can't find the summary everyone's talking about, but I'm excited just seeing the talk here!!! And here is,unfortunatly, where I leave you. I'm moving house and this computer is my (now ex-) housemates. I can't afford the net or an overflowing mailbox, so I have to unsubscribe.:( I'll look into the message board as often as I gain access to the net, but for now, this is the Little Brown Sparrow wishing everyone good heart and a wonderfull read. I have had my mind and heart opened up by you all-I only wish I had found you sooner. Blessed be my little Pot(ter)-heads! Much love, SPARROW __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com From devonturcotte at yahoo.ca Thu Apr 10 12:46:25 2003 From: devonturcotte at yahoo.ca (devonturcotte) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 12:46:25 -0000 Subject: OOP: Summary/Spoiler at TLC? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55087 I'm just going to leave this in here...it seems safer that way! > > Discussion on book 5 summary ahead! > > > > S > > P > > O > > I > > L > > E > > R > > S > > P > > A > > C > > E > > F > > O > > R > > O > > O > > P > > I > > C > > A > > N > > ? > > T > > W > > A > > I > > T > > ! Quote from Olivia: > Funny how everyone refers to the new DADA teacher as a she. Has that > been confirmed or does the term 'poison honey' have a more feminine > feel to it? I believe JKR mentioned in a recent interview (as in, the last few months) that the new DADA teacher will be female. Hey, I just had a thought. DADA is an interesting acronym for this class, don't you think? I wonder if that's been done on purpose (I'm going to guess probably). After all, there must have been other things JKR could name the class besides Defence Against the Dark Arts... Devon From susannahlm at yahoo.com Thu Apr 10 13:59:44 2003 From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (derannimer) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 13:59:44 -0000 Subject: OOP: Poisoned Honey? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55088 Eileen wrote: >What really surprised me was the description of the >DADA professor as someone with a personality like >poisoned honey. That can't refer to her being >ultimately good or bad, I think, since it's not like >the summary is going to give away the plot. She must >have that personality the moment she shows up. So what >exactly does that mean? >Poisoned honey is just not a positive descriptor. Will >we have a teacher who doesn't like Harry? Umm. . . Am I the only person who immediately thought of a femme fatale of some sort when I heard that phrase? Is there something wrong with me? Derannimer (who agrees with Eileen; it *does* sound like Mrs. Lestrange in some ways. And who hopes that if it is a femme fatale, then she tries to seduce Sirius. ; )) From grosich at nyc.rr.com Thu Apr 10 14:15:25 2003 From: grosich at nyc.rr.com (Gina Rosich) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 07:15:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: Poisoned Honey? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030410141525.56365.qmail@web13101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55089 Eileen wrote: >Poisoned honey is just not a positive descriptor. Will >we have a teacher who doesn't like Harry? and derannimer wrote: Umm. . . Am I the only person who immediately thought of a femme fatale of some sort when I heard that phrase? Is there something wrong with me? *** ME: I totally agree. I immediately thought of a femme fatale. Not only that, but I thought of Snape. He's kind of the opposite of poisoned honey. Seems bitter, but is really good. We know Snape has always taken the opportunity to derise and sneer at the the DADA teachers. Maybe this DADA teacher could give him a run for his money. Love interest even? Gina :-) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From clio44a at yahoo.com Thu Apr 10 14:24:14 2003 From: clio44a at yahoo.com (clio44a) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 14:24:14 -0000 Subject: OOP-Spoiler: Poisoned Honey? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55090 O O P S P O I L E R --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "derannimer" wrote: > Eileen wrote: > > >What really surprised me was the description of the > >DADA professor as someone with a personality like > >poisoned honey. That can't refer to her being > >ultimately good or bad, I think, since it's not like > >the summary is going to give away the plot. She must > >have that personality the moment she shows up. So what > >exactly does that mean? > > >Poisoned honey is just not a positive descriptor. Will > >we have a teacher who doesn't like Harry? > > Umm. . . > > Am I the only person who immediately thought of a femme fatale of > some sort when I heard that phrase? > > Is there something wrong with me? Well, when I read poisoned honey, one person popped immediately into my head: Fleur Delacour She is very sweet, she has said she would like to return to England and she attracts men like a flower (flower=fleur=honey) attracts butterflies and bees. If her honey is poisoned it can only mean she is ever so evil. Or maybe she is just her bitchy self. Clio, who had hoped that Fleur would NOT be the new DADA teacher. From melclaros at yahoo.com Thu Apr 10 14:56:29 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 14:56:29 -0000 Subject: OOP-Spoiler: Poisoned Honey? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55091 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "clio44a" wrote: > O > O > P > > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > > > > > > Well, when I read poisoned honey, one person popped immediately into > my head: > > Fleur Delacour > > Blech! No! Fleur isn't poisoned honey, she's vinegar that's gone off. Sorry I stand by my original tirade. There is no way DD would hire a Teenager to teach DADA in "times like these". Mel, who can't wait to meet this *new* DADA teacher. From ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com Thu Apr 10 15:03:05 2003 From: ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com (ingachristsuperstar) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 15:03:05 -0000 Subject: OoP Summary/Spoiler at TLC? In-Reply-To: <54.eb1c4e4.2bc650b0@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55092 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Audra1976 at a... wrote: > I'm going to talk about something that is said in the summary so, > > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > . > . > . > S > P > A > C > E > > purple_801999 at y... writes: > > > I dunno about Figg. If she spent all those years undercover she must > > be one tough cookie. I just don't know if they mean 'poison honey' in > > a good or bad way. > > Audra: > > I've never heard the term "poisoned honey" used in a good way. Actually I > think the term is possibly from MacBeth. I could be wrong. But I digress, > I've always heard it used when someone is acting superficially sweet, but > they really have bad intentions. And I also wouldn't rule out Mrs. Figg. We > don't really know what her personality is really like. > When I read "poisoned honey" my first thought was of Mrs. Figg. I'm thinking it might mean someone who thinks they're being sweet, but in reality they're being anything but. Remember Mrs. Figg giving Harry stale cake and making him look at pictures of her cats. She probably thought she was giving him a grand time. But the reality was rather different. Maybe she'll tell all kinds of embarassing stories about when Harry was little! -Ing ----------------------------------------------------- "Do you know the difference between right and wrong, and do you have a favourite one?" Dr. Katz From ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com Thu Apr 10 15:03:13 2003 From: ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com (ingachristsuperstar) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 15:03:13 -0000 Subject: OoP Summary/Spoiler at TLC? In-Reply-To: <54.eb1c4e4.2bc650b0@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55093 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Audra1976 at a... wrote: > I'm going to talk about something that is said in the summary so, > > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > . > . > . > S > P > A > C > E > > purple_801999 at y... writes: > > > I dunno about Figg. If she spent all those years undercover she must > > be one tough cookie. I just don't know if they mean 'poison honey' in > > a good or bad way. > > Audra: > > I've never heard the term "poisoned honey" used in a good way. Actually I > think the term is possibly from MacBeth. I could be wrong. But I digress, > I've always heard it used when someone is acting superficially sweet, but > they really have bad intentions. And I also wouldn't rule out Mrs. Figg. We > don't really know what her personality is really like. > When I read "poisoned honey" my first thought was of Mrs. Figg. I'm thinking it might mean someone who thinks they're being sweet, but in reality they're being anything but. Remember Mrs. Figg giving Harry stale cake and making him look at pictures of her cats. She probably thought she was giving him a grand time. But the reality was rather different. Maybe she'll tell all kinds of embarassing stories about when Harry was little! -Ing ----------------------------------------------------- "Do you know the difference between right and wrong, and do you have a favourite one?" Dr. Katz From gandharvika at hotmail.com Thu Apr 10 15:39:29 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 15:39:29 +0000 Subject: (FILK) Kept Under Imperious Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55094 Kept Under Imperious (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Wrapped Around Your Finger_ by the Police) Midi is here: http://www.angelfire.com/realm/secretjourney81/Police/Police_StingMIDI.html Barty Crouch Junior (speaking to his father): You sent me off to Azkaban prison Shouted and told me, "I have no son!" >From that hellish place my mother saved me You brought me back here and then enslaved me I only thought of finding my master You considered this a great disaster I had to be concealed and controlled Day and night hidden beneath this cloak You kept me under Imperious You kept me under Imperious Always with the House Elf as my keeper Given treats for my good behavior Denied any free will of my own In plain sight but unseen and alone You kept me under Imperious You kept me under Imperious Late one evening my master came for me He imprisoned you and then I was freed The tables have turned as you'll discover When I say to you, "I have no father!" And you'll be kept under Imperious You'll be kept under Imperious You'll be kept under Imperious You'll be kept under Imperious -Gail B....whose very first filk happened to be based on another song by the Police (this one, in fact: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/42349 ) And who is today celebrating her 100th filk. _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From devika at sas.upenn.edu Thu Apr 10 16:12:45 2003 From: devika at sas.upenn.edu (Devika) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 16:12:45 -0000 Subject: OOP: Re: Poisoned Honey?, What I Think is on the Cover In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55095 > Eileen wrote: > > >What really surprised me was the description of the > >DADA professor as someone with a personality like > >poisoned honey. That can't refer to her being > >ultimately good or bad, I think, since it's not like > >the summary is going to give away the plot. She must > >have that personality the moment she shows up. So what > >exactly does that mean? > > >Poisoned honey is just not a positive descriptor. Will > >we have a teacher who doesn't like Harry? > Then Derannimer wrote: > Umm. . . > > Am I the only person who immediately thought of a femme fatale of > some sort when I heard that phrase? > > Is there something wrong with me? > Then Gina wrote: >>I totally agree. I immediately thought of a femme fatale. Not only that, but I thought of Snape. He's kind of the opposite of poisoned honey. Seems bitter, but is really good. We know Snape has always taken the opportunity to derise and sneer at the the DADA teachers. Maybe this DADA teacher could give him a run for his money. Love interest even? << My reply: I hadn't thought of a femme fatale exactly, but I can definitely agree with that possibility. Actually, to be slightly OT, the first person I thought of when I read "poisoned honey" was Mrs. Coulter from Philip Pullman's _His Dark Materials_ series, at least the way she was in _The Golden Compass_. She was someone who beautiful and seemed very sweet to children, but then turned out to be luring them into a trap. The word poisoned does have an evil connotation to me. However, I really hope the new DADA teacher is not evil. When I thought about it some more, I decided that the new teacher could be someone with a sweet personality who faced so much suffering and loss during VWI that she has become bitter and sorrowful. The sweetness of her personality has been "poisoned," so to speak, by her grief and pain. Then, she would not be evil. In fact, she could be one of the "old crowd," fighting against Voldemort. This might be consistent with the Aging Potion!Arabella Figg theory (or at least it is in my own mind ). And, of course, if she had been romantically involved with Sirius fourteen years ago, only to lose him when he was arrested, then that could contribute to her pain... OK, I'd better stop now, before I propose any more wildly unfounded theories :) On another note, I believe now that the picture on the OoP cover is a depiction of Harry's dream of a single door in a silent corridor. The picture always suggested a dream to me, and I always thought that it looked like there was actually one door, but that the room was spinning--like what might happen at the end of a dream before Harry woke up. Does that make any sense? Just some thoughts-- Devika, who is ridiculously excited for the release of this book, and can't stand the fact that it's still 10 weeks away! From gandharvika at hotmail.com Thu Apr 10 17:05:11 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 17:05:11 +0000 Subject: OOP: Ron Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55096 First of all...I am crawling out of my skin! I was (and still am) *so* psyched after reading this teaser / summary on the Leaky Cauldron last night (although I originally didn't want to be contaminated by any spoilers...damn you Lilac for sending me the link!) And you got to know how excited I am when I start posting something besides a filk. So far, people have been talking about House Elves and The new DADA teacher. But me, I want to talk about Ron. First of all...I'm so happy for Ron! Congratulations! New Keeper! That's just wonderful. He really deserves the position. But the burning question in my mind is this: Why in the world is this information (of Ron being the new Keeper for the Gryffindor Quidditch team) one of the items listed under the heading; "Add this to a host of other worries for Harry..." ? Why would Ron being the new Keeper be a worry for Harry? Well...we all know that sometimes horrible accidents happen on the Quidditch pitch. Oh *no*! Don't kill him, Jo! Don't kill Ron! -Gail B...who does not have any fingernails right now because she has been gnawing on them. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From susannahlm at yahoo.com Thu Apr 10 17:07:49 2003 From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (derannimer) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 17:07:49 -0000 Subject: OOP: DADA Teacher Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55097 Gina wrote: >>I totally agree. I immediately thought of a femme fatale. Not only that, but I thought of Snape. He's kind of the opposite of poisoned honey. Seems bitter, but is really good. We know Snape has always taken the opportunity to derise and sneer at the the DADA teachers. Maybe this DADA teacher could give him a run for his money. Love interest even? << Woo-hoo! Yeah, actually, I immediately thought of that too, but figured that I. . . er. . . wasn't going to mention it. I thought maybe it was just my Bent SnapeFan-hood reasserting itself. But Gina, for the record, yeah. I hope we see something there. ; ) Devika then wrote: >The word poisoned does have an evil connotation to me. However, I >really hope the new DADA teacher is not evil. Yeah, we've seen quite enough of those. But she doesn't necessarily have to be *evil* to be a femme fatale. She just has to be. . . *fatale.* ; ) >When I thought about it some more, I decided that the new teacher >could be someone with a sweet personality who faced so much >suffering and loss during VWI that she has become bitter and >sorrowful. The sweetness of her personality has been "poisoned," so >to speak, by her grief and pain. Yeah. . . but that doesn't quite work. It's not "fermented honey," or something, it's *poisoned* honey. "Poisoned," to me, has clear connotations of *danger.* >Then, she would not be evil. In fact, she could be one of the "old >crowd," fighting against Voldemort. This might be consistent with >the Aging Potion!Arabella Figg theory (or at least it is in my own >mind ). And, of course, if she had been romantically involved >with Sirius fourteen years ago, only to lose him when he was >arrested, then that could contribute to her pain... Here's two things, though: First of all, we *are* going to see Arabella Figg. If the new DADA teacher is a *different* woman, then we will have *two* hopefully prominent new woman characters, instead of just one. And we badly need more woman characters. Second, hey, just because she's evil doesn't mean she can't have something with Sirius! Maybe she can seduce him! Sirius strikes me as someone just *ripe* for being taken for a ride. . . >On another note, I believe now that the picture on the OoP cover is >a depiction of Harry's dream of a single door in a silent corridor. >The picture always suggested a dream to me, and I always thought >that it looked like there was actually one door, but that the room >was spinning--like what might happen at the end of a dream before >Harry woke up. Does that make any sense? Devika, you've got it. You've absolutely got it. Derannimer From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Thu Apr 10 15:28:17 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 11:28:17 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP-Spoiler: Poisoned Honey? References: Message-ID: <024c01c2ff75$d0598760$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55098 re: "poisoned honey" I did a little research on the phrase and found the following: "I was reading up on beekeeping and read about poison honey -- honey which made people dizzy & nauseous etc because it had been made from nectar from such plants as rhododendrons or mountain laurel etc." more info here: http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/homestead/Countryside/Wc907111ff51f6.htm ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ A song title - "YOUR LIPS ARE SWEET AS HONEY (But There's Poison In Your Heart)" You can read the lyrics here: http://home.nycap.rr.com/coollz03/kitty-yourlips.htm ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ A lesson to be learned: "Strange as it may seem, the honeybee makes her honey from exactly the same nectar from which the hermit spider distills one of the deadliest poisons known to man. The bee's makeup allows her to produce honey, while the hermit spider's allows her to produce poison. Only one brings a smile to the lips of a child. Two people can respond to the same circumstances in completely different ways." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Whatever the intended meaning, i don't think it can be a compliment to the teacher in any way, shape or form. I read it as the song title protrays...a teacher with words or actions of honey (good) but with a heart full of poison (evil). ~Katy~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From julia at thequiltbug.com Thu Apr 10 17:18:13 2003 From: julia at thequiltbug.com (Calliope) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 10:18:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: Ron Message-ID: <20030410101814.29753.h009.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net> No: HPFGUIDX 55099 Gail wrote: > Why in the world is this information (of Ron being the new Keeper for the > Gryffindor Quidditch team) one of the items listed under the heading; "Add > this to a host of other worries for Harry..." ? Why would Ron being the > new Keeper be a worry for Harry? > > Well...we all know that sometimes horrible accidents happen on the Quidditch > pitch. > > Oh *no*! Don't kill him, Jo! Don't kill Ron! me: I don't think she's going to kill off Ron - yet - but if she does I don't think it will be a Quidditch accident. If Ron dies it will be in some very dramatic sacrificing-for-Harry way. I think that Ron on the team might be a "worry" is that Harry is made captain of the team, tryouts for the Keeper spot are very close, and it's Harry's call to pick Ron. Maybe this either makes other Gryffindors mad because they think he just picked Ron because they're friends. Or, Ron is not that good and Gryffindor loses games and everyone blames Harry for picking him. Or, maybe Ron and Harry disagree over strategies, or Ron is *very* good and spends so much time on Quidditch he neglects his schoolwork (not likely with Hermione around). Or maybe him being on the team means they spend *so* much time together they smother each other. I don't know, but there's a ton of possibilities besides Ron dying! --Calliope (who is guilty of making Ron have a near-fatal Quidditch accident in her little fanfic, feels horrible about it, and hopes JKR will be nice to Ron...) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Calliopes_fics/ http://www.thedarkarts.org/authorLinks/Calliope/ http://www.riddikulus.org/authorLinks/Calliope/ From princess_tx at yahoo.com Thu Apr 10 15:40:31 2003 From: princess_tx at yahoo.com (Sarmi) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 08:40:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: DADA teacher In-Reply-To: <20030410141525.56365.qmail@web13101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030410154031.48840.qmail@web41415.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55100 derannimer wrote: Umm. . . Am I the only person who immediately thought of a femme fatale of some sort when I heard that phrase? [poisoned honey] Is there something wrong with me? Gina wrote: I totally agree. I immediately thought of a femme fatale. Not only that, but I thought of Snape. He's kind of the opposite of poisoned honey. Seems bitter, but is really good. We know Snape has always taken the opportunity to derise and sneer at the the DADA teachers. Maybe this DADA teacher could give him a run for his money. Love interest even? Me: I agree too. Though my first possibility was Fleur, I quickly nixed that idea because she likes Harry. However, another possibility coma to the forefront, what about Narcissa Malfoy? *shrugs* Ya never know. Sarmi -Seduce my mind & you can have my body, find my soul & I'm yours forever. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From RSFJenny19 at aol.com Thu Apr 10 16:09:28 2003 From: RSFJenny19 at aol.com (RSFJenny19 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 12:09:28 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP-Spoiler: Poisoned Honey? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55101 Clio wrote: Well, when I read poisoned honey, one person popped immediately into my head: Fleur Delacour She is very sweet, she has said she would like to return to England and she attracts men like a flower (flower=fleur=honey) attracts butterflies and bees. If her honey is poisoned it can only mean she is ever so evil. Or maybe she is just her bitchy self. my response: This is exactly who I thought of! One very important thing about Fleur is that, though she seemed snotty but harmless in GoF, she's part veela, and remember what the veela were like at the World Cup? Appearances can be deceiving, we've never seen Fleur's nasty side, but being part veela I'm sure she must have one. And she may have liked Harry in GoF for saving her sis, but things can change. ~Jenny From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Thu Apr 10 17:18:09 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 17:18:09 -0000 Subject: OOP: Ron In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55102 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Gail Bohacek" wrote: > > But me, I want to talk about Ron. > > First of all...I'm so happy for Ron! Congratulations! New Keeper! That's > just wonderful. He really deserves the position. Finally, I was reading through the posts and saw no mention of it. Yeah for Ron! But the burning question > in my mind is this: > > Why in the world is this information (of Ron being the new Keeper for the > Gryffindor Quidditch team) one of the items listed under the heading; "Add > this to a host of other worries for Harry..." ? Why would Ron being the > new Keeper be a worry for Harry? > I thought maybe that in some way this will put a strain on their relationship again. > Well...we all know that sometimes horrible accidents happen on the Quidditch > pitch. > > Oh *no*! Don't kill him, Jo! Don't kill Ron! > > As my little 17 month old daughter would say: NO! NO! NO! Serena From t.forch at mail.dk Thu Apr 10 17:24:43 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 19:24:43 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: Ron In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030410191605.00d50330@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 55103 At 17:05 10-04-03 +0000, Gail Bohacek wrote: >Why in the world is this information (of Ron being the new Keeper for the >Gryffindor Quidditch team) one of the items listed under the heading; "Add >this to a host of other worries for Harry..." ? Why would Ron being the >new Keeper be a worry for Harry? Because Ron really sucks at it, but they couldn't find anyone better? That would be the reason why Ron hasn't been a reserve in CoS and PoA. After the defeat the Gryffindor team suffered at the end of PS, Wood must either have made sure that he had some reserves or else he is a very poor captain. Since we have not heard of any reserves at all, I gather that either there haven't been any (in which case Wood was a fool) or the reserves have been insignificant in the story (in which case Ron cannot have been among the reserves). In any case I find it incredible that Ron should qualify for the team at this late point - I hope that this is a hoax or that Rowling has a very, very good explanation up her sleeve, because, frankly, I am sceptical. Troels From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Thu Apr 10 17:31:02 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 13:31:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: Ron In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030410191605.00d50330@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <20030410173102.11371.qmail@web20413.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55104 --- Troels Forchhammer wrote: > After the defeat the Gryffindor team suffered at the > end of PS, > Wood must either have made sure that he had some > reserves or else > he is a very poor captain. Yeah, well we knew that, didn't we? The person on the reserves may have left Hogwarts, though, if the reserves do exist. After all, we've gone a whole year without Quidditch. The problem with Ron, of course, could be a near-fatal accident. An accident in which Ron's nose is broken. REDHEAD ALWAYS? Eileen ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From susannahlm at yahoo.com Thu Apr 10 17:41:05 2003 From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (derannimer) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 17:41:05 -0000 Subject: OOP: Ron Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55105 Gail wrote: >First of all...I'm so happy for Ron! Congratulations! New Keeper! >That's just wonderful. He really deserves the position. But the >burning question in my mind is this: >Why in the world is this information (of Ron being the new Keeper >for the Gryffindor Quidditch team) one of the items listed under the >heading; "Add this to a host of other worries for Harry..." ? Why >would Ron being the new Keeper be a worry for Harry? Penny and I were talking about this off-list last night--by the way Gail, I sympathize with your unsuccessful attempt at a spoiler-free life, as I did the same thing myself--but anyway, Penny and I were talking, and I asked her the exact same question--I had a couple of vague hunches myself, but I wanted to see what she had to say. And she had an idea--paraphrased: "What if Harry's Gryffindor *Captain*? What if Harry and Ron disagree about how the team should be run?" Now, this theory makes a lot of sense in some ways, I think. After all, as Ron is Harry's best friend, and would be a valuable player, as Keeper, and *is* good at strategy, he might well feel like he's got the right to raise some criticisms. But if Harry thinks *he's* right, and as, ultimately, the team *does* have to follow the Captain's orders, then Harry might well insist that Ron *play* according to his orders. And insist that Ron stop always arguing with his calls. Now, let's apply this: What if this becomes crucially important during a game? What if Ron, as Keeper, as a strategy guy, thinks that he should be doing one sort of manouveur, but what if this runs counter to the game plan? What if Harry calls a time-out, as Captain, and tells Ron that he's got to stop this and follow the plan? What if Ron says: "We'll lose," but Harry doesn't listen to him. What if they lose? Or *worse.* *What if they win.* See, if they lose, Ron won't mind, because he will have been *right,* and there is a certain gloomy degree of satisfaction in "I told you so." And Harry will probably just feel guilty and basically abdicate in favor of Ron's judgement. So there won't really be a long term problem. But if they *win,* then Ron will probably be kind of mad, because, although Gryff losing will have proven Harry wrong, Gryff winning *doesn't* necessarily prove Ron wrong, especially if they win narrowly--say, through a last-minute Snitch capture? So Ron won't be sure he was wrong *anyway,* and he'll be on the defensive, and if Harry does *anything* stupid like grinning and saying: "Look, we won!" (Much like Ron did to Hermione with the Firebolt Incident) then we could be looking at a major blow-up between Harry and Ron. And a blow-up of a similar *kind* to the one in GOF--Ron thinking Harry has a big head, Harry thinking--perhaps with some justification--that Ron is jealous. And, you know, I agree with Eb on this one: the strains on the Trio's friendship are not yet over. Derannimer (who wonders where Hermione would fall, and who concedes that Gail's theory could easily be right as well, but who prefers this one. : ) And who thanks Penny for encouraging her to read the spoilers. ; )) From grace701 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 10 17:59:23 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 17:59:23 -0000 Subject: Fudge: DE or not? (was Re: 50 Questions I would like answered..) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55106 > Greicy asked: > 46) Is Fudge a "Voldemortist", or just in denial of > his return because he's a wimp? Is Bagman a "Voldemortist"? > > Tom replied: > By `Voldemortist,' do you mean `Death Eater?' > > Because, if you do mean `Death Eater' I don't think > that we have evidence to conclude that either Fudge or > Bagman are involved with Voldemort's, ahem, > organization... except for Fudge's reluctance to believe > Dumbledore and Harry in the Parting of the Ways chapter of > GoF, which is dubious evidence at best, IMHO. > > I think that it's unlikely that either is a Death Eater > because of the situation that existed back at the > Triwizard Tournament. Fudge was definitely present > upon Harry's return. As for Bagman, well, there's more > leeway regarding him. > > Judging by the chaotic state of affairs we see upon > Harry's return from the Portkey, I conclude that both > Fudge and Bagman *could* have found a way to sneak off > to the Graveyard if/when they felt their own marks burn. > > But Fudge is right there when Harry gets back, and it > would have been pretty impossible for him to get back > *that* quickly, given that one can't apparate on the > Hogwarts grounds. So, I don't think that Fudge is a > Death Eater, because he could probably have slipped off > in the confusion, but didn't. And has been discussed > previously, it's likely that Voldemort wouldn't accept > any excuses. He calls, you go. Simple as that. > > As for Fudge's denial, we have to accept that as far > as WW public opinion might go, Dumbledore does have a > credibility gap here, as does Harry. *We* know, trust, > and love Dumbledore. But let's face it, there are many > in the WW that might not idolize him the way that we do. He > has made some "poor" decisions (Lupin, Hagrid) that *we* > understand, but that the public might not. > > AND, he has been maligned by, amongst others, the highly > influential Lucius Malfoy, as well as the highly > influential Rita Skeeter. Didn't she actually refer to > him as an `obsolete dingbat,' or something to that > effect? Heck, even Mrs. Weasley, who knows that > Skeeter `goes out of her way to cause trouble,' even that > same Mrs. Weasley snubs Hermione as a result of one of > Skeeter's articles. And she should know better. > > I firmly believe that this is going to be important to > future plotlines. > > So, whereas *we* know that Harry is telling the truth, > because we were there, and whereas *we* trust Dumbledore, > Fudge is taking the stance that a majority of the WW > might not believe that Voldemort has returned, based on > the possibly disturbed (fits, pains in the scar, and a > history of crazy stories) Harry's shaky credibility in > addition to the lack of any other credible witnesses. > > In addition, Fudge knows (and Dumbledore confirms) > that a large portion of the WW will not approve of > contacting the giants, or dismissing the dementors > from Azkaban. Let's just hope that Rita Skeeter really > keeps her mouth shut, otherwise Dumbledore's going to > be up the creek without a paddle: cavorting with a > wanted murderer, interfering at the Ministry of Magic > ? this stuff is just ripe to be exploited. > > Plus, with this new spoiler, well, it all just sounds > deliciously ominous. That's why I asked *is* Fudge a Voldemortist/Spy!Death Eater. My term for Voldemortist is an undercover Death Eater, a spy. Someone who is influenced by Voldemort and who supports him, but doesn't want to do all the visible "bad" deeds and of course someone who doesn't have the Dark Mark. This isn't supported by canon of course, it is my own theory as well as many others, but I just added a name besides spy. ;) On the other hand, it is also likely that he thinks Harry is deranged and cannot (or does not) want to expect that fact that Voldemort is back. We don't know anything about Fudge. He could be a married man with children. His family may have been affected by Voldemort, so he could be also in denial because of that reason. It's just that his attitude throughout the book, makes me think ill of him. He may have been there to keep Harry safe from Sirius and he may have felt sorry for having to take away Hagrid, but all the world is a stage (Fudge's stage) and we are the audience watching him *act*. That's why I asked is he a Voldemortist/spy. There could be the *possibility* that Voldemort sent Fudge a letter stating that he is going to kill Harry Potter the night of the Third Task and to not apparate to the graveyard because it will be too suspicious. If he could send owls to Crouch!Moody, why not to someone who is just as useful to the plot? Greicy From t.forch at mail.dk Thu Apr 10 18:19:37 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 20:19:37 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: Ron In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030410201650.00d57840@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 55107 At 17:41 10-04-03 +0000, derannimer wrote: >After all, as Ron is Harry's best friend, and would be a valuable >player, as Keeper, and *is* good at strategy, Who says Ron's good at strategy? I have seen this many times, but I have yet to discover any kind of canonical support for it. If being good at chess had anything to do with a strategic talent one might wonder why Kasparov wasn't leading the coalition forces. Troels (who actually likes Ron a /lot/ - because he is common as muck.) From grace701 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 10 18:23:28 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 18:23:28 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Name/Fate In-Reply-To: <01dd01c2fef7$1b20b220$f801bfce@oemcomputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55108 MaggieB wrote: >Hermione, the goddess of the Harmony, was one of Mars' daughters. >Also interesting to note is that Mars is also the father of the >famous twins, Remus and Romulus. >Isn't it interesting that Hermione does play peacekeeper between >Harry and Ron? Are there any other instances? And wouldn't it be >odd if Professor Lupin turned out to be Hermione's half >brother? Abbey wrote: >Hermione is also the daughter of Helen of Troy and Menelaus >Her dad arranged for her to marry Orestes (who ended up murdering >lots of family members and was haunted by Erinyes for a long time), >but when the Trojan War began, he tried to get on the Greeks good >side by marrying her off to Neoptolemus (Pyrrhus), the only son of >Achilles. The two suitors dueled over Hermione and Neoptolemus was >killed. Sounds kinda like a Harry Ron Hermione love triangle to me. Greicy wrote: > BTW, has anyone read The Winter's Tale by Shakespeare? JKR got > Hermione's name from there and I wanted to know if there maybe a > clue about Hermione. I have it, but I just can't get into it. Erika: >I read "A Winter's Tale" in my full-year Shakespeare course a few >years back. In the play, Hermione is the wife of Leontes the of >King Sicilia. She has a son by the name of Mamillius and is >pregnant as well. Leontes, for no real reason, (at least as far as >I remember) becomes insanely jealous and believes she may be >having an affair with his friend Polixenes the King of Bohemia >(which she is not). Eventually, he goes into a rage and Polixenes >flees for his life while Hermione is thrown into prison. Shortly >thereafter, she gives birth to a daughter and, according to her >attendant Paulina, dies in the process. She is not seen again until >the final scene of the play. >In any case, after all this has happened Paulina leads Leontes to a >room in which she has what seems to be a statue made in the image >of Hermione- but a Hermione who has aged some fifteen years. She >ask Leontes if he will accept her and, when he does, Paulina speaks >to the "statue" and Hermione returns to life. >I thought I read an interview somewhere in which Rowling said that >her Hermione wasn't meant to have much in common with >Shakespeare's. The idea was to choose a name that a pair of >dentists might choose in order to show off, but also one that was >unusual enough so that a real little girl wouldn't get teased for >having a name similar to Rowling's creation. Has anyone seen an >interview that said something to that effect? >The only parallel that I can see off the top is the whole idea of >Hermione being turned into a statue- reminds one of the >petrification incident in CoS a little, doesn't it? Thank you, Erika. I did hear about that interview, so you're not the only one. Now I'm putting all of Erika, Abbey and Maggie's comment together here and it seems like Hermione in all 3 stories is caught between two men, excluding HP. Mars!Hermione, goddess of Harmony, is one of Mars' daughter who has two brothers, or half-brothers, by the name of Remus and Romulus. HP!Hermione's "brothers" are Harry and Ron and as stated by Maggie is the peacemaker between them. The other two Hermione's are involved in love. Helen of Troy! Hermione is betrothed to two men who battle over her and then one dies. (I like to call him the "left over" =) because she was only going to marry him to be on Greece's good side.) Then there is Shakespeare!Hermione who is accused of sleeping with Polixenes by a jealous Leontes. When you look it these all together it seems to what Abbey says is true, HP!Hermione could find herself stuck in a love triangle. Or by two bestfriends who are no longer bestfriends, but rivals. Wonder if JKR is mixing these stories together and adding something else to the mix. Any suggestions Greicy, who just loves to talk about Hermione! From Talkative_alien_4000 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 10 18:28:59 2003 From: Talkative_alien_4000 at yahoo.com (Darla) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 18:28:59 -0000 Subject: OOP: Ron In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030410201650.00d57840@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55109 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Troels Forchhammer wrote: Who says Ron's good at strategy? > I have seen this many times, but I have yet to discover any > kind of canonical support for it. If being good at chess had > anything to do with a strategic talent one might wonder why > Kasparov wasn't leading the coalition forces. > ME: I've always considered good chess players to be VERY strategically minded. Not only do you have to understand the power of the different pieces, but you have to know how to use them effectively, you have to make tough decisions and sacrifices, and you have to be able to predict the moves of your opponent. Personally I think Ron will be able to transfere these skills to the Quidditch pitch. Harry has raw talent, certainly, but his position as Seeker makes him rather cut off from the rest of the team, and certainly in terms of interacting and understanding what's required to work effectively as a team. I'd kinda like Ron to be made Captain! Darlaz From stix4141 at hotmail.com Thu Apr 10 18:31:10 2003 From: stix4141 at hotmail.com (stickbook41) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 18:31:10 -0000 Subject: OoP Summary/Spoiler at TLC? In-Reply-To: <20030410051436.77780.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55110 * O O T P S P O I L E R S A H E A D ! * Eileen: > What really surprised me was the description of the > DADA professor as someone with a personality like > poisoned honey. That can't refer to her being > ultimately good or bad, I think, since it's not like > the summary is going to give away the plot. She must > have that personality the moment she shows up. So what > exactly does that mean? Me: I'm actually sort-of relieved to hear that the new DADA teacher isn't going to be nice. On some level, it decreases the chances of having him/her turn out to be an agent of evil. Eileen: > Poisoned honey is just not a positive descriptor. Will > we have a teacher who doesn't like Harry? Me: We already do! Everyone's favorite Potions master! Perhaps he does have legitimate personal reasons to think less-than-well of Harry, but Snape's over-the-top vindictiveness is in sharp contrast to everything else we know about the man--saved Harry's life, trusted by Dumbledore, etc. I trust Snape too, maybe *because* he's so nasty. For me, he reads as being very genuine, sideways sneers and all. And then there's McGonagall, Dumbledore's right-hand witch, who cares about Harry, but makes it perfectly clear that she is not going to cut him any slack or tolerate any nonsense. (Except where Quidditch is concerned.) So in conclusion, if Professor Poisoned-Honey is anything like these two characters, I'll feel better, even if he/she is extra tough on Harry. Especially if he/she's nasty up front, where's the bang in having yet another Evil!DADA prof? And as if they would go announcing such a plot twist in the *catalog*. Cheers! -stickbook From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Thu Apr 10 18:18:45 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 18:18:45 -0000 Subject: OOP: Ron In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030410191605.00d50330@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55111 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Troels Forchhammer > In any case I find it incredible that Ron should qualify for the > team at this late point - I hope that this is a hoax or that > Rowling has a very, very good explanation up her sleeve, because, > frankly, I am sceptical. > > Troels Why? It makes perfect sense. After all, it's very unusual to make it on the team as a first year (hence Harry did). And in CoS, the only reason Draco makes it is because he buys his way on the team. In PoA, there are no openings (not that there were any in Cos either) and then GoF there is no Qudditch (argh!). So we finally get to the point where Ron (or somebody else) could join the team. So, this is the first time that a)Ron has been eligible and b)there is a chance for him to try out. Late would be making it in his 7th year, but as a 5th year he has three good years to play. Serena From grace701 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 10 18:33:59 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 18:33:59 -0000 Subject: On Why Hermione is a Gryffindor In-Reply-To: <022001c2fefd$5486da20$f801bfce@oemcomputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55112 Erika wrote: >I agree that Hermione values more than just wisdom. However, I >would also like to add another quote from PS/SS from when we first >meet Hermione on the Hogwarts Express: >"Do either of you know what house you'll be in? I've been asking >around and I hope I'm in Gryffindor, it sounds by far the best, I >hear Dumbledore himself was one, but I suppose Ravenclaw wouldn't >be too bad..." p79-80 Canadian edition I wonder what exactly made her want to be in Gryffindor. She obviously knows she's smart so why not have Raveclaw as her first chioce? Is it because she knows whichever House she's put in, she'll do well in class? Yes I think so because she knows she's a study freak. So maybe Hermione, who has self-esteem issues, wants to be put in Gryffindor to boost her self-confidence or to be told, in a way, that she is confident. As though Gryffindor seems to be for those are brave, who can handle anything and she wants to feel like she has control. Maybe she was deep down inside anticipating some sort of adventure? I think I'm rambling.....sorry. Greicy, who rambles without a clue From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Thu Apr 10 18:30:39 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 18:30:39 -0000 Subject: 50 Questions I would like answered in Books Five, Six, and Seven In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55113 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall" wrote: >> I think that it's unlikely that either is a Death Eater > because of the situation that existed back at the > Triwizard Tournament. Fudge was definitely present > upon Harry's return. As for Bagman, well, there's more > leeway regarding him. > Keep in mind that Voldemort's DE's work in cells meaning that the DE's don't know all the other DE's. The ones who appeared at the graveyard are most likely his top officers, the inner circle. There are probably many more DE's who didn't show up, not out of disloyality but because they weren't summoned. From patricia at obscure.org Thu Apr 10 18:50:16 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 14:50:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: On Why Hermione is a Gryffindor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55114 On Thu, 10 Apr 2003, grace701 wrote: > I wonder what exactly made her want to be in Gryffindor. She > obviously knows she's smart so why not have Raveclaw as her first > chioce? Is it because she knows whichever House she's put in, > she'll do well in class? Yes I think so because she knows she's a > study freak. So maybe Hermione, who has self-esteem issues, wants > to be put in Gryffindor to boost her self-confidence or to be told, > in a way, that she is confident. As though Gryffindor seems to be > for those are brave, who can handle anything and she wants to feel > like she has control. Maybe she was deep down inside anticipating > some sort of adventure? The first, and simplest, explanation for why Hermione wanted to be in Gryffindor is that whoever she was talking to on the train about the various houses heaped lots of praise on Gryffindor and made it sound better than all the others. For instance, if Hermione were talking to Fred and George, I would fully expect them to be biased in favor of their own house. She almost certainly talked to Neville since she helped him find his toad, so if he had a preference for Gryffindor for whatever reason that may have come out in their conversation as well. But additionally, I think Hermione wants some of the glory that Gryffindor is famous for. Yes, she's smart, and yes, she does love knowledge for its own sake, but she's also a bit of a show-off. It's not enough for Hermione to quietly be the smartest girl in class -- she wants everyone to *know* she's the smartest girl in class. So naturally she'd want to be in the house that gets the most attention (the most positive attention, anyway). Ravenclaws are generally respected, but they're not as often in the spotlight at Gryffindors, so they wouldn't be as attrative to someone who tends to want to show off. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From Audra1976 at aol.com Thu Apr 10 18:50:35 2003 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 14:50:35 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: Ron Message-ID: <170.1cf9dcbb.2bc716fb@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55115 Troels Forchhammer wrote: Who says Ron's good at strategy? >If being good at chess had > anything to do with a strategic talent one might wonder why > Kasparov wasn't leading the coalition forces. > Talkative_alien_4000 at yahoo.com writes: I've always considered good chess players to be VERY strategically minded. Not only do you have to understand the power of the different pieces, but you have to know how to use them effectively, you have to make tough decisions and sacrifices, and you have to be able to predict the moves of your opponent. Me: I agree with the Alien. And who says Kasparov *wouldn't* have made a great military leader? Didn't Kings play chess to help them with their military strategy? And Ron is not only talented at wizards' chess, but he's very into professional Quidditch, so I'm sure he does know a lot of Quidditch strategies, aside from chess strategy. He's played Quidditch at home with his brothers practically his whole life. At least one of the older two brothers was on the Gryffindor team, and Fred and George as well. Ron would have learned a lot from them too. So Ron definitely has more than just chess skills going for him. -Audra- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com Thu Apr 10 18:52:14 2003 From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 11:52:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anyone here get Scholastic/Bloomsbury catalogs? [was] OoP Summary/Spoiler at TLC? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030410090927.00d06220@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <20030410185214.55229.qmail@web21102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55116 Troels Forchhammer: > At 00:33 10-04-03 +0000, Debbie wrote: > >Have you seen the OoP summary from > >Scholastic posted at The Leaky > >Cauldron? Are we "allowed" to discuss > >this here? > > Everybody seems convinced that > the thing is real - am I the > only one who is in doubt (not for > any specific reason - more > on principle ;-) Nah, you're not alone, I'm a bit skeptical as well. Seeing that there are a few teachers on this list who might have access to the same catalog, can anyone verify that this is the real deal and originates from Scholastic? Do Bloomsbury have catalogs? We can't expect TLC to do ALL the work, right? Thanks! Petra a n :) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com From rvotaw at i-55.com Thu Apr 10 18:54:52 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (rvotaw at i-55.com) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 13:54:52 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] anyone here get Scholastic/Bloomsbury catalogs? [was] OoP Summary/Spoiler at TLC? Message-ID: <1997666.1050000892372.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55117 Petra wrote: > Nah, you're not alone, I'm a bit skeptical
> as well. Seeing that there are a few
> teachers on this list who might have
> access to the same catalog, can anyone
> verify that this is the real deal and
> originates from Scholastic? Do
> Bloomsbury have catalogs? We can't expect
> TLC to do ALL the work, right? Thanks!
I'll risk going extremely off topic here, but since the question was asked, I'll make a stab at answering it. I have in the past had Scholastic catalogs, though the last one I had was landscape, not portrait as the one at TLC is, but that doesn't mean anything, they could easily have changed style. Anyway, that particular type of catalog is generally for libraries. I'm pretty sure if I send for one now, I'll get last year's anyway. If it's the real thing it's bound to be someone who works at Scholastic, or the printing company, or a good friend of someone who does. So basically, though I know this isn't much help, I can't really imagine who would be able to get one if it's not technically available yet. Since it does say Summer/Fall 2003, perhaps by early June? Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Apr 10 19:34:41 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 19:34:41 -0000 Subject: Alectryomancy (I'm Confused) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55118 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > ...edited... > > When harry buys unfogging the future the manager mentions several of > its chapters including methods of divination and...bird entrails! > > This just struck me as interesting because we know that the phoenix > is obviously important to the plot (or at least enough so to have > and order of something), and perhaps, just perhaps, fawkes could > having something to do with all this and be useful in divination.( > or any other phoenix) The process of alectryomancy is usually done > with a cock, but who knows the possibilities with a phoenix. > > ...edited... > > Fair ye well! > Scott bboy_mn: I'm confused, are you suggesting that alectryomancy is the reading of bird entrails, because it's not, although it does use a rooster? To read bird entrails, based on my limited knowledge, you kill the bird and throw his guts (entrails) on the ground and read the shapes and patterns just as you would with tea leaves. So you can't be suggesting we cut Fawkes open and throw his guts on the ground. I really don't think he would like that. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . HARUSPICATION IS fortune-telling by means of inspecting the entrails of animals, as practiced by priests in ancient Rome. HEPATOSCOPY is a form of divination using the entrails of animals. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Alectryomancy works more like an Ouija board, a circle is draw on the ground while reciting incantation, the cirle is then divided into sections with a letter of the alphabet in each section, then grain is placed in each of the section, and you base you divination on the order that the rooster eats the grain. That is, the order of the section from which it eats will spell out words. So, in that sense, Fawkes could be used. There are other ways of divining using bird that don't require killing them, analysing flight patterns for example; Ornithomancy. So, if you are proposing that Fawkes in general could be used in some form of divination, I'm relieved and would consider the possibility. But I think that a Phoenix is a sufficiently magical bird that it could communication any premonitions it might have to Dumbledore or Harry in other more direct ways. Harry seems to be able to sense Hedwig's mood and intensions very easily, so if he became more familiar with Fawkes, I think Harry could read him the same way, though familiarity and instinct rather than true divination. Fawkes or Hedwig in some way communicating or warning Harry about the future is an interesting possibility. but I think there are better devices in the story, like Harry's dreams, that serve the purpose better. Just a thought. bboy_mn From Audra1976 at aol.com Thu Apr 10 19:49:49 2003 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 15:49:49 EDT Subject: Evil!McGonagall/Dumbledore/Snape (was: Re: Harry and Snape and Dumbledore) Message-ID: <1e1.67b9b3d.2bc724dd@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55119 grosich at nyc.rr.com writes: > As for Snape or Dumbledore et al. being evil. I don't buy it for 2 reasons. > One, Harry cannot live in a world where no one is what they seem and > everyone is evil. Too depressing and a bit pointless. Second, the foe > glass. Snape, Dumbledore and McGonagall appeared very clearly in > Crouch-Moody's foe glass. If one of them was really on Voldemort's side, > their face wouldn't appear. I don't have reason (yet!) to doubt the > accuracy of the foe glass. And Snape's image in it was mentioned more than > once. Me: But isn't it possible for McGonagall, Dumbledore, or Snape to be evil, yet still be an enemy of Barty Crouch? There can be a lot of different factions on the sides of both good and evil. -Audra- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com Thu Apr 10 19:50:47 2003 From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 12:50:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anyone here get Scholastic/Bloomsbury catalogs? In-Reply-To: <1997666.1050000892372.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com> Message-ID: <20030410195047.45251.qmail@web21106.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55120 Yours truly, in regards to the veracity of OoP Summary/Spoiler at TLC: > Nah, you're not alone, I'm a bit skeptical > as well. Seeing that there are a few > teachers on this list who might have > access to the same catalog, can anyone > verify that this is the real deal and > originates from Scholastic? Do[es] > Bloomsbury have catalogs? We can't expect > TLC to do ALL the work, right? Thanks! Richelle: > I'll risk going extremely off topic here, > but since the question was asked, I'll > make a stab at answering it. Yes, could any further replies go to OTC? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter Should've said that in the 1st place...sorry. > I have in the past had Scholastic catalogs, > though the last one I had was landscape, > not portrait as the one at TLC is, but > that doesn't mean anything, they could > easily have changed style. Anyway, that > particular type of catalog is generally > for libraries. I'm pretty sure if I > send for one now, I'll get last year's > anyway. If it's the real thing it's > bound to be someone who works at > Scholastic, or the printing company, or > a good friend of someone who does. > So basically, though I know this isn't much > help, I can't really imagine who would be > able to get one if it's not technically > available yet. Since it does say > Summer/Fall 2003, perhaps by early June? Thanks for the info - it's good to know. Though I'm curious to find out if this means kids (and librarians) can't order from a Scholastic catalog the most popular title that Scholastic sells and still get it around its release date. That just doesn't seem quite right...wouldn't the catalogs be arriving around now so the orders can be placed by customers and processed by Scholastic in time for June 21st? I can't remember - it's been ages. What about Bloomsbury? They don't seem to always use the same verbiage as Scholastic so it's entirely possible their marketing materials may give us more or different spoilers. Any UK teachers/librarians/book sellers here? How will/did you guys place your orders for OotP? Petra, awaiting your replies at OT-Chatter a n :) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com From htfulcher at comcast.net Thu Apr 10 20:13:41 2003 From: htfulcher at comcast.net (marephraim) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 20:13:41 -0000 Subject: OOP: Ron -- off topic comment about Ron and Divination In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55121 "Darla" wrote: > I've always considered good chess players to be VERY strategically minded. Not only do you have to understand the power of the different pieces, but you have to know how to use them effectively, you have to make tough decisions and sacrifices, and you have to be able to predict the moves of your opponent. Personally I think Ron will be able to transfere these skills to the Quidditch pitch. < This talent (and chessmanship is a talent IMO) might give credence to a discussion earlier on (weeks? month?) about Ron's potential as a Divination Wizard. (The earlier discussion was about possible Auror potential among the three.) MarEphraim From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Apr 10 20:29:30 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 20:29:30 -0000 Subject: OOP: Poisoned Honey? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55122 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "derannimer" wrote: > Eileen wrote: > > >What really surprised me was the description of the > >DADA professor as someone with a personality like > >poisoned honey. That can't refer to her being > >ultimately good or bad, ...edited... > > >Poisoned honey is just not a positive descriptor. Will > >we have a teacher who doesn't like Harry? > > Umm. . . > bboy_mn: Well, I still think it could be Mr. Figg. Harry could come into DADA and find his sweet but somewhat eccentric babysitter there. First, he would be surprised to find that she was a witch, although that would certainly explain why he saw her as a mad old lady with too many cats. So on one hand we have this sweet old lady, but on the other hand she could be a grueling taskmaster. Given the dark and dangerous times that are upon them, and given how far behind they are in their DADA knowledge and experience having had only one decent DADA teacher, she may push the longer and harder than they have ever been pushed. Given that they are studying for OWLs which I suspect is grueling in itself, and now she is pushing them with grueling practice session and tons of homework, it could put a bit of a strain on their relationship. It could make the students view even the nicest teacher in a negative light, if she pushed them that hard. My second best guess for DADA teacher is Mrs. Weasley. Mostly because I think it would be so cool, at least for me a reader, to see Ron have his mother for a teacher. Mrs. Weasley is also a person who has a dual presonality, she is very loving and compassionate, but she doesn't cut people much slack, and she can be very demanding. So we have the same scenario here as with Mrs. Figg, a very nice person who is a 'take no crap' grueling taskmaster. As cool as I think it would be, I really don't have strong belief that the new DADA teacher will be Mrs. Weasley. Just a thought. bboy_mn From siskiou at earthlink.net Thu Apr 10 20:35:14 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 13:35:14 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's Name/Fate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <18069730224.20030410133514@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 55123 Hi, Thursday, April 10, 2003, 11:23:28 AM, grace701 wrote: > Wonder if JKR is mixing these stories together and adding something > else to the mix. Any suggestions I sure hope not! I'd find it a little strange and predictable for an author to pick a character's names and what will happen to them in this way. Just look at all the other names JKR picked. Would she be expected to do the same for the other characters, too? Or just for Hermione? -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From t.forch at mail.dk Thu Apr 10 20:43:19 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 22:43:19 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: Ron In-Reply-To: <170.1cf9dcbb.2bc716fb@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030410223459.00d68420@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 55124 At 14:50 10-04-03 -0400, Audra1976 at aol.com wrote: >Troels Forchhammer > wrote: > Who says Ron's good at strategy? > >If being good at chess had > > anything to do with a strategic talent one might wonder why > > Kasparov wasn't leading the coalition forces. > > >Talkative_alien_4000 at yahoo.com writes: > I've always considered good chess players to be VERY strategically >minded. They are, generally, mathematically minded. >Me: >I agree with the Alien. >And Ron is not only talented at wizards' chess, but he's very into >professional Quidditch, I know a lot of people who are very into professional football (soccer to the westerners ;-) - a lot of them are beyond 200 pounds and couldn't run 20 yards without working up a sweat (not talking about panting). I have no doubt that if it fits Rowling's intentions to make Ron an admirable Quidditch player, then he will - I just think that it would be more consistent with his character as it has been presented hitherto if he made a fool of himself on the broom - and I like him for it. There is nothing extraordinary about Ron - he is the very likable commoner with no special talents like the huge majority of the readers. Harry and Hermione are both presented as being almost greater than life - they're admirable, but somehow unapproachable (IMO, of course, and YMMV). Troels From RSFJenny19 at aol.com Thu Apr 10 18:51:10 2003 From: RSFJenny19 at aol.com (RSFJenny19 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 14:51:10 EDT Subject: OOP: Hogwarts Message-ID: <1dc.7368a56.2bc7171e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55125 S P O I L E R S Quote from the summary: "Harry Potter confronts the unreliability of the very government of the magical world, and the impotence of the authorities at Hogwarts. " This I found very interesting as well - does the Hogwarts part refer to Dumbledore? Are we finally getting to a book where DD's influence in the WW diminishes? The reasoning is certainly there - people who don't believe LV is back might have issues with DD as Fudge did in the end of GoF. I got the impression before that during LV's reign DD was the one everyone could trust, so to speak, but now I wonder about the divisions among people before his downfall - the pensieve in GoF shows a scene post-LV where DD appears to be in high standing, but was that a recent change, after the fall of LV? ~Jenny, who has to stop reading the summary or she'll never sleep tonight.... From jmholmes at breckcomm.com Thu Apr 10 17:21:53 2003 From: jmholmes at breckcomm.com (Julie Holmes) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 11:21:53 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: DADA Teacher References: Message-ID: <010601c2ff85$ae5f2740$6401a8c0@arvada1.co.home.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55126 <----- Original Message ----- From: derannimer > I found the poisoned honey reference to be fascinating. Honey, as may well be known to some, is a natural carrier of Botulism (Clostridium botulinum) toxin, thus the rule against giving babies under two honey straight up. I haven't had time to do more research into the name Clostridium botulinum to see if there are any clues as to names for the DADA teacher, or anything else. I'm sure this is kind of far-fetched...but the choice of words is...odd. Poisoned honey? Not exactly glamorous. I can't help but wonder if it's a major clue. Musing.... ~Julie . ') ..) .*) (. (. . ..*`-SLYTHERINCESS*`- (. "Every night the fabulous jewels made of sky brilliants - the stars - flicker above people's heads. They have decorated the night sky for thousands of years, none of them disappearing. Why? Because there, in the sky, waits an eternally awakened dragon, who guards them.... ') ..) .*) (. (. . ..*`- DRACO*`- (. From amani at charter.net Thu Apr 10 20:50:20 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 16:50:20 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: On Why Hermione is a Gryffindor References: Message-ID: <00e301c2ffa2$cd4919a0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55127 Erika wrote: >I agree that Hermione values more than just wisdom. However, I >would also like to add another quote from PS/SS from when we first >meet Hermione on the Hogwarts Express: >"Do either of you know what house you'll be in? I've been asking >around and I hope I'm in Gryffindor, it sounds by far the best, I >hear Dumbledore himself was one, but I suppose Ravenclaw wouldn't >be too bad..." p79-80 Canadian edition Greicy: I wonder what exactly made her want to be in Gryffindor. She obviously knows she's smart so why not have Raveclaw as her first chioce? Me: I think it's a question of what she values. Yes, she values intelligence and wisom. Highly, as is very obvious. But she values other things more--such as bravery, as she says in PS/SS ("There are more important things--friendship and bravery..." 287, US Paperback). So from there it's natural for her to want to be in the House that values the same things she does. --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Thu Apr 10 19:15:55 2003 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 19:15:55 -0000 Subject: FILK: The Knight Bus Will Go Where You Deign Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55128 This is a little nothing filk of "The Night They Invented Champagne" from the Alan Jay Lerner and Frederick Loewe musical "Gigi". You can hear the original music at: http://www.broadwaymidi.com/shows/gigi.html I dedicate this filk to Amy Z. Why? -- just because! The Knight Bus Will Go Where You Deign SCENE: Stan Shunpike praises the virtues of Wizarding World Mass Transit to Harry. The Knight Bus will go where you deign, But not beyond the strand, It must go on dry land. To call us, use legerdemain. You stick out your wand hand, Itinerary's planned. Obstacles we regard with disdain; Our path is never ever wrong. The Grim can't hurt you there He hasn't got the fare So climb aboard the Knight Bus as we roll along. -Haggridd From JessaDrow at aol.com Thu Apr 10 20:16:04 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 16:16:04 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: Ron Message-ID: <1df.67b7d02.2bc72b04@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55129 In a message dated 4/10/03 1:28:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, t.forch at mail.dk writes: > In any case I find it incredible that Ron should qualify for the > team at this late point - I hope that this is a hoax or that > Rowling has a very, very good explanation up her sleeve, because, > frankly, I am sceptical. > I'm sure there will be alot of parents not sending their kids back to school this year, and thats why there would be room on the team. ~Faith~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Talkative_alien_4000 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 10 20:57:43 2003 From: Talkative_alien_4000 at yahoo.com (Darla) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 20:57:43 -0000 Subject: OOP: Ron In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030410223459.00d68420@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55130 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Troels Forchhammer wrote: > There is nothing extraordinary about Ron - he is the very likable commoner with no special talents like the huge majority of the readers. Harry and Hermione are both presented as being almost greater than > life - they're admirable, but somehow unapproachable (IMO, > of course, and YMMV). > > Troels ME: I have to disagree, lol. Certainly Ron has been, so far, the more overshadowed of the trio, but there have been numerous occasions in the books where, to me, Ron has acted extroardinarily. The scene in the Shrieking Sack in PoA, his braverly and loyalty to his friends there was nothing less then brilliant, I thought, as was his ability to get past the chess set and his sacrifice in PS. And Ron is, I think, the most quick-witted of the bunch at the very least. I love his humourous quips! Darlaz From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Apr 10 21:00:58 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 21:00:58 -0000 Subject: OOP: Ron In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030410201650.00d57840@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55131 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Troels Forchhammer wrote: > At 17:41 10-04-03 +0000, derannimer wrote: > >After all, as Ron is Harry's best friend, and would be a valuable > >player, as Keeper, and *is* good at strategy, > > Who says Ron's good at strategy? > I have seen this many times, but I have yet to discover any > kind of canonical support for it. ... one might wonder why > Kasparov wasn't leading the coalition forces. > > Troels bboy_mn: Kasparov as a world class chess player is probably very good at strategy, but what knowledge does he have of war, of arms and munitions, and what leadership skills does he have. Ron on the other hand comes from a long line of school champion Quidditch players, and he has interest and experience in the game. OTH: Kasparov may have fantastic strategic skill but if he has no interest in or knowledge of chess or war, what good is it? He needs experience and interest to apply it. Ron has both those things. See my point? Ron's strategic skills are only one of many talents he has that can be applied to the game of Quidditch, and this makes him the logical choice for the Keeper position. I also believe the Ron and Harry will have some degree of condflict over running the team that in the end will be resolved by Harry turn the captain-ship of the team over to Ron. I really don't think Harry wants to be captain, although, I'm sure initially he will reluctantly accept the responsibility. In the end, they will all realize that not only does Ron want it, but that he is good at it and he deserves it. The only other Gryffindor that we know of that has any flying experience is Seamus, but to the best of my knowledge, Seamus didn't have five skilled older brothers to teach him the game. The only thing Ron really lacks is a decent broom, but a Keeper doesn't do that much flying; he stays pretty close to the goals, so he wouldn't need a world class broom. If it gets right down to it, I think Harry might be able to persuade the Twins to be benevolent enough to by Ron a decent broom. Maybe not a world class top-of-the-line racing broom, but still a good enough broom for a Keeper. Just a thought. bboy_mn PS: HA!! I told you so. I've been saying for months that Ron would be the new Keeper. I also predict that he will be next years captain. From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 10 21:16:54 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 21:16:54 -0000 Subject: Fudge: DE or not? (was Re: 50 Questions I would like answered..) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55132 Greicy wrote: > There could be the *possibility* that Voldemort sent Fudge a letter > stating that he is going to kill Harry Potter the night of the > Third Task and to not apparate to the graveyard because it will be > too suspicious. Now me: LOON point: Fudge was at the tournament and therefore could not have apparated to the graveyard since one cannot apparate or disapparate from the Hogwarts grounds. *However,* he could have taken a portkey to the graveyard, since portkeys have been proven to work on the Hogwarts grounds... I believe JKR is intentionally trying to make us question Fudge's motives. From his very name to the bizarre way he dresses to his contradictory actions, he simply exudes mistrust. My own personal thinking is that Fudge is not a DE or a "Voldemortist," but that he will contribute to the efforts of the Dark Side by his inaction in facing the reality of Voldemort's return. ~Phyllis From stix4141 at hotmail.com Thu Apr 10 22:06:31 2003 From: stix4141 at hotmail.com (stickbook41) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 22:06:31 -0000 Subject: Fudge: DE or not? (was Re: 50 Questions I would like answered..) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55133 Phyllis: > I believe JKR is intentionally trying to make us question Fudge's > motives. From his very name to the bizarre way he dresses to his > contradictory actions, he simply exudes mistrust. My own personal > thinking is that Fudge is not a DE or a "Voldemortist," but that he > will contribute to the efforts of the Dark Side by his inaction in > facing the reality of Voldemort's return. I think you sort-of contradict yourself. I always found Fudge to be painted more or less as Harry sees him--"a little pompous, a little blustering, but essentially good-natured." The lime-green bowler hat is a clue that maybe we shouldn't take him as seriously as we would take someone who dresses like Crouch Sr (who appears to be the only adult in the WW with any kind of Muggle-style dress sense). I don't think this spells out mistrust so much as it does short-sightedness. Fudge is dangerous, for sure, but only through inaction. He seems like a simple man, and throwing in complications like Voldemort is a personal threat to expose him as such. I don't think he's capable of ulterior motives or underhanded evilness. Sorry, but FIE! doesn't register with me... yet... I may change my mind in 71 days! Cheers! -stickbook From debmclain at yahoo.com Fri Apr 11 00:51:08 2003 From: debmclain at yahoo.com (Debbie) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 00:51:08 -0000 Subject: Fudge: DE or not? (was Re: 50 Questions I would like answered..) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55134 Phyllis/"erisedstraeh2002" wrote: > I believe JKR is intentionally trying to make us question Fudge's > motives. From his very name to the bizarre way he dresses to his > contradictory actions, he simply exudes mistrust. My own personal > thinking is that Fudge is not a DE or a "Voldemortist," but that he > will contribute to the efforts of the Dark Side by his inaction in > facing the reality of Voldemort's return. Me: I have thought for quite some time that Fudge is Evil. However, I couldn't decide if it was because he really does work for Voldy or just stupid not to listen to Dumbledore. I now completely agree with Phyllis. I think Fudge "will contribute to the efforts of the Dark Side by his inaction in facing the reality of Voldemort's return." I just couldn't say it any better. Because of Fudge, Voldemort will rise again, possibly even more powerful, since MOM isn't doing anything to prepare for it/prevent it. So it's not Harry's fault for letting Pettigrew go, it's Fudge's fault. -Debbie From rvotaw at i-55.com Fri Apr 11 00:59:11 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 19:59:11 -0500 Subject: OOP: Cover (candles) Message-ID: <00b801c2ffc5$90c84780$03a3cdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 55135 I don't think this is considered a spoiler, since it's all purely speculative based on the cover. I'm sure this has been mentioned, but I've obviously missed it. :) Obviously, we've all noticed that the US edition of OOP is very blue and there are loads of candles. While listening to the CD of CoS today, the Death Day Party jumped out at me. All of the candles are described as black, giving off blue light. If Harry was in a room lit only by these blue light giving candles, wouldn't everything appear blue? But what does this mean? Is it because of the dungeons or is it a sort of ghost candle? JKR did say we'd learn more about ghosts (why some become and some don't) and Harry would explore death more closely. Thoughts? Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Audra1976 at aol.com Fri Apr 11 01:04:45 2003 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 21:04:45 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: Ron Message-ID: <176.189436cd.2bc76ead@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55136 I wrote: >I agree with the Alien. >And Ron is not only talented at wizards' chess, but he's very into >professional Quidditch, t.forch at mail.dk wrote: I know a lot of people who are very into professional football > (soccer to the westerners ;-) - a lot of them are beyond 200 > pounds and couldn't run 20 yards without working up a sweat > (not talking about panting). > Me: But Troels, you snipped the part of my message where I bring up that Ron has been *playing* Quidditch with his brothers for years in addition to following professional Quidditch. Ron's tall and wiry, and probably runs pretty fast (not that you have to run to play Quidditch), and experienced on a broom, *not* a 200 pound couch potato. -Audra- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From susannahlm at yahoo.com Fri Apr 11 01:04:56 2003 From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (derannimer) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 01:04:56 -0000 Subject: OOP: Re: DADA Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55137 Steve wrote: >So on one hand we have this sweet old lady, but on the other hand she >could be a grueling taskmaster. > >snip< >It could make the students view even the nicest teacher in a negative >light, if she pushed them that hard. Yes, but see, it says: "a *personality* like poisoned honey." Not that her relationship with the students is like poisoned honey. And for someone to have a personality like "poisoned honey," they would really, I think, have to be more than sweet-yet-tough. They have to have a fairly weird personality. Here's a few random thoughts on possible reasons why that quote sounds so *sinister* to me. First of all, what would poisoned honey *do* to you, if you ate it? Well, it would seem to be very innocuous and it would taste nice and you would eat it and then you would keel over dead. To me, that phrase is just loaded with the ideas of danger--as poison is dangerous--and deception--as honey would at first seem innocent. And also, it is so *very* feminine a description, somehow, that it suggests to me not simply a *female* character--which we already knew anyway--but a *sexualized* female character. Which I think rules out sweet old Mrs. Figg. And which I would say definitely rules out Mrs. Weasley. The other problem I would have with Molly Weasley, though, is that. . . er. . . . . . well. I don't think of her as being all that bright, or all that powerful of a witch. I mean, not bright or powerful enough to successfully teach DADA during Voldemort's second rise. Derannimer (who *so* wants this character to have some sort of a thing with Snape. Or, failing that, to seduce Sirius. And who would like to ask: anybody here seen _The Maltese Falcon_? Or _Double Indemnity_? Or *any* of those great noirs with those great, deadly dames? Yeah? *That's* what I mean. (You know, roughly, I mean. Not literally. I somehow doubt that the new DADA teacher is going to wind up pushing her husband's lifeless body off a train.)) From debmclain at yahoo.com Fri Apr 11 01:18:27 2003 From: debmclain at yahoo.com (Debbie) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 01:18:27 -0000 Subject: OOP - DADA really is..... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55138 I believe the new DADA will be Florence!!! I think she was kissing Snape behind the greenhouses that night. Then Snape hexed Bertha Jorkins when she was discovered watching them. Since Snape isn't very nice, wouldn't he date a girl more like him - like "poisoned honey"? Here could be the "romance" many of you Snape- lovers desire. -Debbie From susannahlm at yahoo.com Fri Apr 11 01:30:42 2003 From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (derannimer) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 01:30:42 -0000 Subject: OOP: Re: DADA Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55139 Er. . . sorry to seem like a kill-joy here, especially since I personally haven't a clue who the new DADA teacher *is,* but. Debbie wrote: >I believe the new DADA will be Florence!!! And I just have to say that this is the Potterverse, where names matter. A lot. In the Potterverse, no one named "Florence" ever had a personality like "poisoned honey." It just. . . I don't know. . . doesn't quite work. Anyways, I'm rather partial to "Peter Gets the Girl," myself. ; ) Derannimer (who must concede that a great many Bent SnapeFans *do* want him to experience some kind of sparkage. And that she is, er, one of them. ; )) From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Fri Apr 11 01:36:33 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 01:36:33 -0000 Subject: Fudge: DE or not? (was Re: 50 Questions I would like answered..) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55140 Starting with a quote from Debbie's last post, but my comments are meant to be general. Debbie wrote: Because of Fudge, Voldemort will rise again, possibly even more powerful, since MOM isn't doing anything to prepare for it/prevent it. So it's not Harry's fault for letting Pettigrew go, it's Fudge's fault. I reply: Let's not go too crazy here. Even if Fudge would have acquiesced to Dumbledore's suggestions, which are definitely unorthodox, none of this would have been necessary if Harry hadn't let Pettigrew escape in the first place. Although to be frank, I bet that Voldemort would have found a way to return sans Pettigrew eventually. Altogether, this doesn't seem like the kind of situation where real blame can be assigned to anyone but Voldemort, and perhaps some of the Death Eaters. Let there be no mistake - this is Voldemort's fault, and IMO, just because his enemies (our good-guys) don't agree on how to deal with Voldemort doesn't make any of them accountable for his return. That's like the faulty reasoning people like John Ashcroft are using over the current "war on terrorism": if you don't agree with the president, then you're supporting terrorism. `Disagreement with each other' isn't the same thing as `support for the enemy,' and not for an instant do I think that Fudge actually supports Voldemort. Disagree with Dumbledore? Yes. Loyal to the Dark Lord? Nope. What we see with Fudge is naught but different thinking than Dumbledore. First of all, Dumbledore has more information than Fudge, via the Veritaserum used on Crouch Jr., and the interview with Harry. That interview, I might add, that Dumbledore won't allow Fudge to have. "I cannot permit you to question Harry tonight." (GoF, US paperback, Ch.36, 704) So, it's easier for him to make suggestions like `get rid of the dementors' and `contact the giants,' because he knows what's going on (and *we* know that he knows what's going on,) but Fudge doesn't. Second, information aside, Dumbledore believes Harry, whereas Fudge isn't so sure, because from an *outside* perspective (which Dumbledore and the readership do NOT have, but which still exists ala Fudge and WW public opinion, and to which we, the readership are *not* privy), frankly, Harry really isn't always that believable or reliable, and has a history of telling crazy (but often true) stories, not to mention a history of frequently lying and getting into trouble. Again, *we* know why this is the case. But the WW at large doesn't. Third, it doesn't help that Rita Skeeter is so incredibly influential in the WW. Despite the fact that everyone seems to know she's a troublemaker, people still believe her, people like Mrs. Weasley, who chide Mr. Diggory one minute, and then snub Hermione the next. I'll tell you that I got very angry at Mrs. Weasley when she sent Hermione that dinky little chocolate egg. I was almost more mad at Molly than I was at Snape for commenting on Hermione's teeth. Mrs. Weasley should know better. But it's not Mrs. Weasley's fault. It's Skeeter's. Rita has been telling slanderous stories about Harry and his friends, and this means that our hero's reputation isn't as squeaky as *we* think it is. Fourth, Dumbledore has kept secrets from Fudge, which is, IMO, a *major* error on Dumbledore's part. "If I have discovered that you've been keeping certain facts about the boy very quiet? A Parselmouth, eh? And having funny turns all over the place?" (GoF, US paperback, Ch.36, 705) How would you like it if you found out that the headmaster was keeping you in the dark? You're the Minister of Magic, for Merlin's sake! If *anyone* should know these things, you should! Fifth, just because Fudge doesn't agree with Dumbledore doesn't make him evil. Dumbledore has made decisions that are questionable in the eyes of the WW, such as hiring Lupin and Hagrid. *We* think that those decisions are great and fair, because *we* know the whole story. Fudge doesn't. Sixth, Dumbledore accuses Fudge of being blinded by the office that he holds, which I accept as only partially true in the "selfish" sense that we read it, but as also true in the sense that Fudge believes that he has to act according to public opinion... and public opinion isn't necessarily in the favor of what Dumbledore suggests. "The first and most essential step is to remove Azkaban from the control of the dementors ?" "Preposterous!" shouted Fudge again. "Remove the dementors? I'd be kicked out of office for suggesting it! Half of us only feel safe in our beds at night because we know the dementors are standing guard at Azkaban!" (GoF, US paperback, Ch.36, 707) "Envoys to the giants?" Fudge shrieked, finding his tongue again. "What madness is this?" "You ? you cannot be serious!" Fudge gasped, shaking his head and retreating further from Dumbledore. "If the magical community got wind that I had approached the giants ? people hate them, Dumbledore ? end of my career ?" (GoF, US paperback, Ch.36, 708) "Now, see here, Dumbledore," he said, waving a threatening finger. I've given you free reign, always. I've had a lot of respect for you. I might not have agreed with some of your decisions, but I've kept quiet. There aren't many who'd have let you hire werewolves, or keep Hagrid, or decide what to teach your students without reference to the Ministry." (GoF, US paperback, Ch.36, 709) See? Fudge isn't just being selfish here. He isn't just being sneaky. He disagrees with Dumbledore, partially because he has been misled by Albus, partially because he doesn't have the facts, and partially because just because Dumbledore's Dumbledore doesn't make Dumbledore necessarily right. I bet that Fudge even feels betrayed. And as I mentioned earlier, Fudge is *still* being kept in the dark by Dumbledore, `cause he still doesn't know about Sirius Black, and he doesn't know that Dumbledore *IS* interfering at the Ministry. So, when we judge Fudge (heh-heh) we should be fair and try to remove ourselves a little from the Dumbledore/Harry/readership axis of things. If you take a slightly more removed perspective, you see that although Fudge is being disagreeable, he has very good reasons for being so. I personally believe that Fudge's behavior is partially the *result* of our heroes' actions, and not just in spite of them. Which, IMHO, is part of what makes all of this so interesting. Again, JKR isn't presenting us with an easy black and white situation. We have lots of grey, though. ;-) Again, just my humble opinion. -Tom From grace701 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 11 02:31:05 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 02:31:05 -0000 Subject: OOP: Ron In-Reply-To: <1df.67b7d02.2bc72b04@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55141 Faith wrote: > > I'm sure there will be alot of parents not sending their kids back to school > this year, and thats why there would be room on the team. This is what I've been asking since I got here?! lol But not in regards to Quidditch, in regards to the way parents react to Dumbledore's statement about Voldemort at the end of the school year! Greicy From grace701 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 11 02:38:20 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 02:38:20 -0000 Subject: OOP: Ron In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55142 Derranimer wrote: > But if they *win,* then Ron will probably be kind of mad, because, > although Gryff losing will have proven Harry wrong, Gryff winning > *doesn't* necessarily prove Ron wrong, especially if they win > narrowly--say, through a last-minute Snitch capture? So Ron won't > be sure he was wrong *anyway,* and he'll be on the defensive, and > if Harry does *anything* stupid like grinning and saying: "Look, we > won!" (Much like Ron did to Hermione with the Firebolt Incident) > then we could be looking at a major blow-up between Harry and Ron. > And a blow-up of a similar *kind* to the one in GOF--Ron thinking > Harry has a big head, Harry thinking--perhaps with some > justification--that Ron is jealous. > > And, you know, I agree with Eb on this one: the strains on the > Trio's friendship are not yet over. Interesting, I was having a talk about Ron and Harry's relationship to my friend yesterday. I told her that the fact that Ron and Harry made up in GoF and didn't discuss at all about what happened between them means that the tension is still in the air. Anything, just any little confrontation, is going to blow things up again. I know it, just because they didn't talk things out and I believe that Penny and your theory is the best theory for me. I can read it happening, I can feel it happening! Greicy From grace701 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 11 02:45:50 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 02:45:50 -0000 Subject: On Why Hermione is a Gryffindor In-Reply-To: <00e301c2ffa2$cd4919a0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55143 > Greicy: > I wonder what exactly made her want to be in Gryffindor. She > obviously knows she's smart so why not have Raveclaw as her first > chioce? > > Taryn: > I think it's a question of what she values. Yes, she values > intelligence and wisom. Highly, as is very obvious. But she values > other things more--such as bravery, as she says in PS/SS ("There > are more important things--friendship and bravery..." 287, US > Paperback). So from there it's natural for her to want to be in the > House that values the same things she does. I actually meant what made her want to be in Gryffindor before that and I think Patricia answered it beautifully: The first, and simplest, explanation for why Hermione wanted to be in Gryffindor is that whoever she was talking to on the train about the various houses heaped lots of praise on Gryffindor and made it sound better than all the others. For instance, if Hermione were talking to Fred and George, I would fully expect them to be biased in favor of their own house. She almost certainly talked to Neville since she helped him find his toad, so if he had a preference for Gryffindor for whatever reason that may have come out in their conversation as well. But additionally, I think Hermione wants some of the glory that Gryffindor is famous for. Yes, she's smart, and yes, she does love knowledge for its own sake, but she's also a bit of a show-off. It's not enough for Hermione to quietly be the smartest girl in class -- she wants everyone to *know* she's the smartest girl in class. So naturally she'd want to be in the house that gets the most attention (the most positive attention, anyway). Ravenclaws are generally respected, but they're not as often in the spotlight at Gryffindors, so they wouldn't be as attrative to someone who tends to want to show off. ---------------------------------------- Greicy From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Fri Apr 11 03:34:16 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 03:34:16 -0000 Subject: What If... Dumbledore had included Fudge in GoF Ch.35? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55144 You know, all of this revitalized debate on whether FIE or not has gotten me thinking... When I was a teenager, I used to read comic books (revealing some childhood geekdom, there) and Marvel comics had this great (well, *I* thought it was great, but I'm not sure if it was long-lived or not) series called "What If..." The point of the series was to take Marvel-verse fact, like our canon, and posit plausible alternatives in the form of "What If... such-and-such had happened instead of what actually DID happen?" So, in that light, I got to thinking about GoF Ch.35, "Veritaserum," in which Dumbledore administers the potion to Barty Crouch, Jr. and he, Harry, Winky, Snape, and McGonagall hear what he has to say. That's a lot of people, right, when you think about it? Who is missing that should definitely been included in this meeting? Fudge. If Fudge had been there (and it wouldn't have been that difficult to include him) things would have been very different at the end of GoF. So, in that light, "What If... Dumbledore had called Fudge into the room to hear Crouch Jr.'s testimony?" What we have now is this: "Severus, please fetch me the strongest Truth Potion you possess, and then go down to the kitchens and bring up the house-elf called Winky. Minerva, kindly go down to Hagrid's house, where you will find a large black dog sitting in the pumpkin patch. Take the dog up to my office, tell him I will be with him shortly, then come back here." (GoF, US paperback, Ch.35, 680) What If... he said this: Minerva, kindly go down to Hagrid's house, where you will find a large black dog sitting in the pumpkin patch. Tell him that I wish to see him and will be with him shortly. Find Cornelius Fudge and tell him that it's imperative he come to this room at once. Bring the dog to my office, and then come back here." Imagine if that had happened. Well, first of all, Fudge would have heard most, if not all of what Barty Crouch, Jr. had to say under the effect of the serum. In other words, when Fudge says in GoF Ch.36 that "I see no evidence to the contrary!" (US paperback, pg. 706) that wouldn't have happened. He would have heard the evidence. So, right then and there, Fudge would have bonafide proof that Voldemort was alive. See? Dumbledore could still have kept Sirius' identity a secret by bringing Fudge back to his office and somehow ensuring that Sirius remain in his dog form. That would have been difficult, because we see that Sirius is standing there in his human form when Albus and Harry enter the room. All the same, Dumbledore is indisputably a smart guy, and probably could have found a way to make sure Sirius was still a canine. He could have had the dog wait outside the office instead of bringing him in. He could have sent Harry into the office first to take a private word with Fudge outside. Whatever the case, in this scenario Fudge would have heard Harry's testimony. So then, the whole Parting of the Ways scene wouldn't be a `parting' at all, because Fudge would be aware of Voldemort's plans via BCJ and Harry. And even if Fudge wants to dispute Harry's sanity, or take issue with Dumbledore's secrecy, he would still have Crouch, Jr.'s testimony to give to the Ministry officials and the public. In other words, Fudge would have more of the same information that Dumbledore has. Removing the dementors wouldn't be a dispute ? it would be a foregone conclusion, as would contacting the giants. So, Dumbledore's secrecy is part of the reason that Fudge blows up the way he does in GoF Ch.36. If Fudge had the same information that Albus does, then the WW would be able to act accordingly, with some form of unanimity. Of course, we, as readers, would lose a large part of the suspense that JKR has skillfully built up, and, which I might add, makes the story worth reading. ;-) Other decent "What If..." topics off the top of my head? "What If... Harry had shaken Draco's hand in PS/SS Ch.6 on the Hogwarts Express?" "What If... The Sorting Hat had placed Harry into Slytherin House in PS/SS Ch.7?" "What If... Harry had revealed that he was hearing a strange voice to Dumbledore in CoS Ch.12?" "What If... Tom Riddle Sr. had accepted that his wife was a witch?" Just food for thought. I realize that all this would drastically change the story that we know and love (and probably make the story not half as engrossing,) but still, it's interesting to think about. ;-) -Tom From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Fri Apr 11 03:37:17 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 20:37:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: Re: DADA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030411033717.99372.qmail@web40507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55145 Derannimer wrote re DADA teacher: >>>And also, it is so *very* feminine a description, somehow, that it suggests to me not simply a *female* character--which we already knew anyway--but a *sexualized* female character. Which I think rules out sweet old Mrs. Figg. And which I would say definitely rules out Mrs. Weasley. >>> Oh, yes. When I read that, I definitely thought 'femme fatale.' I imagine a person with a personality like 'poisoned honey' to be soft-spoken, but really nasty underneath all that. And sexy, too. Sort of like the nurse from 'One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest,' only more sexualized. She doesn't have to be evil, however, or a Death-Eater. I think we've had enough of that particular plot twist. ;) I have, for various reasons, ruled out the following characters for the DADA position: Fleur, Arabella Figg, Narcissa, Rita, Molly, Petunia... I really hope to see Mrs. Lestrange in the books at some point or another, but not as a DADA teacher imposter. However, I have another idea for the Honey Lady. How about that Weasley cousin that JKR edited out of GoF because of a plot hole? I also like the idea about seducing Sirius or Snape, but that has more to do with my loving stuff like that in movies than with any realistic expectations of future HP events. I doubt that something like that could happen, as the tone of the books so far doesn't really let us entertain the possibility of something as scandalous as that happening. Although it would be really quite interesting... I admit that I've never really wanted the DADA teacher to be Arabella Figg, as we desperately need female characters in the novels, and the more, the better. I'm still crossing my fingers for the AgeingPotion!Figg. Arabella is such a nice name. Maria, who had 3 midterms today, and who is now terribly upset that she won't be able to read OoP until August 13th. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 11 03:45:42 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 20:45:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: On Why Hermione is a Gryffindor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030411034542.69892.qmail@web21005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55146 Greicy wrote: I actually meant what made her want to be in Gryffindor before that and I think Patricia answered it beautifully: The first, and simplest, explanation for why Hermione wanted to be in Gryffindor...... Me: Actually I think were making too big a deal about the idea of "wanting" to be in a certain house. I think that plays an extremely small roll normally in the sorting ceremony. We may be influenced here because Harry "chose" Gryffindor. But Harry only had that option because he was so ideally suited for Gryffindor. He was obviously also highly qualified for Slytherine but if that wasn't such a "difficult" choice as the Sorting Hat admitted I don't think he would have had any chose at all. He would have been automatically selected not necessarily to the house he wanted but the house he was best suited for. As far as Hermione, she has proven her bravery under pressure several times over. In the first book and PoA she showed great bravery and daring. Even in the first book, setting fire to Professor Snape wasn't something most first year student's would have dared do under any circumstance. I think some people question her bravery because of her poor performance verse the troll in the first book. But heck, your a young kid, totally inexperienced, sitting on the potty crying and a giant troll, way beyond your skills just happens to come strolling into the bathroom. I don't think her inability to handle herself well there is in anyway a negative reflection of either her bravery or daring. I don't think you can even judge an 11 year old like that. And she's more than made up for that since. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From devika at sas.upenn.edu Fri Apr 11 04:21:57 2003 From: devika at sas.upenn.edu (Devika) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 04:21:57 -0000 Subject: What If... Dumbledore had included Fudge in GoF Ch.35? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55147 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall" wrote: > > > So, in that light, I got to thinking about GoF Ch.35, "Veritaserum," > in which Dumbledore administers the potion to Barty Crouch, Jr. and > he, Harry, Winky, Snape, and McGonagall hear what he has to say. > That's a lot of people, right, when you think about it? Who is > missing that should definitely been included in this meeting? > > Fudge. If Fudge had been there (and it wouldn't have been that > difficult to include him) things would have been very different at > the end of GoF. > > So, in that light, "What If... Dumbledore had called Fudge into the > room to hear Crouch Jr.'s testimony?" > What If... he said this: > > > Minerva, kindly go down to Hagrid's house, where you will find a > large black dog sitting in the pumpkin patch. Tell him that I wish > to see him and will be with him shortly. Find Cornelius Fudge and > tell him that it's imperative he come to this room at once. Bring > the dog to my office, and then come back here." > > Imagine if that had happened. > > Well, first of all, Fudge would have heard most, if not all of what > Barty Crouch, Jr. had to say under the effect of the serum. In other > words, when Fudge says in GoF Ch.36 that "I see no evidence to the > contrary!" (US paperback, pg. 706) that wouldn't have happened. He > would have heard the evidence. So, right then and there, Fudge would > have bonafide proof that Voldemort was alive. > > > So then, the whole Parting of the Ways scene wouldn't be a `parting' > at all, because Fudge would be aware of Voldemort's plans via BCJ > and Harry. And even if Fudge wants to dispute Harry's sanity, or > take issue with Dumbledore's secrecy, he would still have Crouch, > Jr.'s testimony to give to the Ministry officials and the public. In Ch. 36, "The Parting of the Ways:" "By all accounts, he [Crouch Jr.] is no loss! blustered Fudge. "It seems he has been responsible for several deaths!" "Why he killed them? Well, that's no mystery, is it?" blustered Fudge. "He was a raving lunatic! From what Minerva and Severus have told me, he seems to have thought he was doing it all on You-Know- Who's instructions!" After reading this, I think that Fudge believed that Crouch Jr. had confessed to his crimes and said that Voldemort made him do it. Snape and McGonagall had told him this, as Fudge himself states. He doesn't dispute what Crouch Jr. actually said. What he doesn't believe is that Crouch Jr. was sane enough to know what he was talking about. Fudge knows that Crouch Jr. *thought* that he was acting under Voldemort's orders and therefore said so under the influence of Veritaserum. However, Fudge believes that Crouch Jr. is insane. Therefore, regardless of what Crouch Jr. said, Fudge is not going to believe it. The point is not whether or not Fudge heard Crouch Jr.'s confession. Fudge believes what Dumbledore, Snape, and McGonagall have said about it. He didn't need to hear it for himself. The point is that Fudge believes that Crouch Jr. was delusional, and so what Crouch thought was true, i.e. that Voldemort had returned, was only true in Crouch's own mind. Fudge doesn't think that it is true in reality. Whether he heard the confession or not, Fudge would still dismiss it as the ravings of a lunatic. He is so determined not to believe that Voldemort has returned that no one, except maybe Voldemort himself, can convince him of this. Another thing: I know that the WW is going to be divided on the issue of whether Voldemort has actually returned. But really, how long is it going to be before the entire WW realizes that this has in fact happened? Surely Voldemort isn't just going to sit around and do nothing now that he has his body back. After a few attacks on Muggles and Muggle-borns, won't people start to get a bit suspicious that something is going on? And Voldemort himself, being the megalomaniacal evil overlord type, will want full credit for everything that he and his DEs do. I don't think it can be long before Voldemort reveals himself in a way that will leave no one, including Fudge, in any doubt that he has indeed returned. Devika From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Fri Apr 11 04:26:06 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 00:26:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OOP: DADA Teacher In-Reply-To: <20030330041454.61174.qmail@web20413.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030411042606.44907.qmail@web20422.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55148 Did I think of 'femme fatale," Derannimer? Oh yes, I did. I thought, "Oh dear, everyone's going to start talking about a femme fatale for poor Snape or Sirius." Because I am not a seriously bent Snape fan. I'm just seriously bent. 'Poisoned honey," however, actually minded me immediately of an acquaintance of mine, whose personality can only be described as "poisoned honey." She's in her late 50s, so I definitely could see Mrs. Figg as the DADA teacher. I'll explain what I take poisoned honey to mean. A person whose character is like poisoned honey is the sort of person who is very gracious and friendly when speaking with you, and then leaves a message on your mother's answering machine, saying she doesn't like your attitude. Is that getting a little too personal? In general terms, it's seems to me to be someone who is duplicit, who comes across on the surface as very nice, but who is actually always twisting the knife in a little deeper. Not like Barty Crouch Jr. That was a straight-out act. You know when a person like poisoned honey isn't really being nice, isn't really being sincere. You know, and there's not much you can do about it. Eileen ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From jodel at aol.com Fri Apr 11 05:08:46 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 01:08:46 EDT Subject: OOP: Poisoned Honey Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55149 Sorry. I keep flashing on "mad" honey. Mad honey is the honey made from the nectar of toxic plants. (Specific ones, they bloom very early in the spring, mostly in the Balkan States.) The properties of the honey from this "early crop" has been known from Classical times. The most typical traditional use was to mix it with wine for an extra kick. It can be deadly. There was an article in something like the Smithsonian a few years ago. The sweetly malicious type comes pretty easily to mind. Sounds like she's giving you a compliment until you turn your back and find a knife in it. A bit like a more subtle Rita Skeeter. (Rita? Surely not!) The big question is whether she's nastier to the teachers or to the students. Although, if any one wants my oppinion. If we're going to bring up overused plot devices. I think I would rather deal with Polyjuice, or a Time-Turner, or even another unregistered animagus than another evil DADA teacher right now. -JOdel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Fri Apr 11 00:42:15 2003 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 00:42:15 -0000 Subject: "C'est Gigantique" (a filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55150 This filk of "C'est Magnifique" from Cole Porter's "Can-Can", titled "C'est Gigantique", is just silly, but it tickled me. Italics are indicated by asterisks (*) before and after the relevent phrase. The original music can be heard here: http://www.broadwaymidi.com/shows/can_can.html I dedicate this filk to Neil Ward, in memory of an interesting and pleasant correspondence over a year ago (which has nothing to do with this filk). C'est Gigantique SCENE: Madame Maxime sings a paean to her new beau from Hogwarts. MADAME MAXIME: When he walks by He looks me in the eye. Oo la la la *C'est Gi-gan-ti-que.* With grace and force He tames my winged horses. Oo la la *C'est Gi-gan-ti-que.* I do not ask; He shows me the First Task. Oo la la la It is such *ma-gi-que.* And best of all, He whispers, "HEY, OLYMPE, SHAKE A LEG! WE'RE GONNA BE LATE FOR THE BALL!" *C'est Gi-gan-ti-que.* -Haggridd From Pjamelan at comcast.net Fri Apr 11 00:50:04 2003 From: Pjamelan at comcast.net (James Jimerson) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 20:50:04 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Query about Neville References: Message-ID: <005601c2ffc4$4a6c9c60$0fb43344@savana01.ga.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 55151 ----- Original Message ----- From: GKJPO To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2003 8:57 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Query about Neville --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Briony Coote" wrote: > I keep wondering as to why Neville was sorted into Gryffindor. Since > herbology is his best subject, he would be more suited for Hufflepuff. > Is there some potential about Neville that the Sorting Hat picked up, > but Neville hasn't found yet? If so, the most likely reason is that he > doesn't believe in himself. But we have seen sparks of his potential. > Remember the courage he found in standing up to HRH, and won 10 points > for Gryffindor? Or the time he fought the Boggart? The first time he > was extremely scared, but when he found that he was successful, and had > a good laugh in putting Snape in drag, he came up very determinably for > the second time. > > Briony > As for me, I seem to remember that Neville also stood up to Malfoy once upon a time.I don't have my book handy but I think he told Malfoy that he was worth 12 of him. (I could be wrong) We CAN see that Neville has courage. Just as the Sorting Hat took a long time sorting Harry because it was Talking in his ear, isn't it possible that it was talking to Neville. Harry has qualities prone to both Slytherin and Griffindore. Maybe Neville's lengthy sorting was due to him having the qualities of Hufflepuff and Griffindore. It is apparent that it takes some people more time to realize just what kind of stuff they are made of. I think that considering Neville's parents state of mind, (at St. Mongo's Hospital), either he is not aware how great his parents were or he might just be afraid of trying to live up to their reputations. Although, I strongly belive that you could be right about him having a memory charm put on him. I'll give it more thought, but I wouldn't doubt that we will see great things from Neville Longbottom as he learns what he is made of. Griffinmore [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Apr 11 07:17:07 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 07:17:07 -0000 Subject: OOP: Cover (candles) In-Reply-To: <00b801c2ffc5$90c84780$03a3cdd1@RVotaw> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55152 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > .... Obviously, we've all noticed that the US edition of OOP is very blue and there are loads of candles. .... All of the candles (death day) are described as black, giving off blue light. If Harry was in a room lit only by these blue light giving candles, wouldn't everything appear blue? But what does this mean? Is it because of the dungeons or is it a sort of ghost candle? ... Thoughts? > > Richelle bboy_mn: I will point out the the original version of the cover artwork is done in full color not blue tint. The candles are white with yellow flames. The image is posted on the internet, unfortunately I don't remember where, but I do have a copy of it on my own computer. My guess is some graphic artist was looking for a cool effect and did a color shift to blue because it makes everything look dark and mysterious. Given that it now has this dark blue tint and everything seems to be swirling around, I think it's safe to say it's a dreamscape. There have been certain hints drop that re-enforce this possibility. Just a thought. bboy_mn From siskiou at earthlink.net Fri Apr 11 07:21:44 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 00:21:44 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: Cover (candles) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <15108451084.20030411002144@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 55153 Hi, Friday, April 11, 2003, 12:17:07 AM, Steve wrote: > I will point out the the original version of the cover artwork is done > in full color not blue tint. The candles are white with yellow flames. > The image is posted on the internet, unfortunately I don't remember > where, but I do have a copy of it on my own computer. I've seen this version, too, but if IIRC, somebody colored it in the way they imagined it might look if it *wasn't* blue tinted. As I understood, the original is the blue tinted version. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Apr 11 07:31:49 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 07:31:49 -0000 Subject: OOP: Ron In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55154 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grace701" wrote: > Faith wrote: > > > > I'm sure there will be alot of parents not sending their kids back > > to school this year, and thats why there would be room on the team. > > > This is what I've been asking since I got here?! lol But not in > regards to Quidditch, in regards to the way parents react to > Dumbledore's statement about Voldemort at the end of the school year! > > Greicy bboy_mn: I'm glad I'm not one of these parents because deciding whether or not to send your kids back to school would be an extremely difficult task. On one hand Hogwarts is a fortress guarded by some of the most respected and skilled wizard and witches in Britain, but on the other hand, Harry and Dumbledore are there, and they are Voldemort primary adversaries making it a primary target. Of course, that decision hinges on people actually believing that Voldemort truly is back, and also believing that Dumbledore hasn't gone completely batty. Personally, I think it is too soon for most of the parent to wonder whether it is safe to send their kids to Hogwarts. The two months between the end of term and the beginning of the next school year isn't enough time for people to know what to believe. Possible, if things get rough a few students may be pulled out during the year, but it's next year(6) that will be the real test of trust for Hogwarts and Dumbledore. Just a thought. bboy_mn From errolowl at yahoo.com Fri Apr 11 07:46:58 2003 From: errolowl at yahoo.com (errolowl) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 07:46:58 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Bill is Ever So Dead with DIMINISHED CAPACITIY (was: Lupin is Ever so Dead In-Reply-To: <20030410060355.90604.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55155 I slouched under my bulky coat, my wide brimmed hat doing its best to keep the rain off me even as I eased into the first hospitable looking place in that desolate street. As taverns go it was not particularly splendid, but then, it did get me out of the cold Besides, who was I to quarrel when there was a drink to be had. The storm had caught me unawares. Hurricane Jo was not expected for some time yet, but sundry summary showers were already making life difficult. A deafening roar of sound hit me as I paused to get my bearings, and it occurred to me that getting a drink here might be harder than expected. The lone bartender was engulfed in a crowd of boisterous, fierce looking women ...The Royal George Tavern...I was guessing that was George.....not a bad looking sap...and quite definitely the only other male in the room. And scurrying to fill glasses at the bar amidst assorted gasps of "...oh not Lupin!"...."It has to be Hagrid" ...you're just making excuses...Of course, He's ever so evil...I`d rather he *died*..." I've always held that I had a high developed sense of self preservation refined through a highly misspent youth, but right then the lure of a scotch on the rocks clouded my judgment and I found myself edging my way toward the bar. At any other time I would have prudently fled from such a crowd-- one never won an argument with women anyway --nor, apparently, could you get the bartender away either. Not his fault I'm sure for he couldn't even see me beyond a large contraption spewing out shiny little discs. The discs found me however, an energetic couple landing on my hat brim, and I gasped. "DIMINISHED CAPACITIES" Oh my God! Did people actually go around wearing badges like these then? And if you wore it on your hat, did that suggest your state of mind?! I think Ron had the better option ? his just said SPEW. My random thoughts were interrupted by a loud protest from beside me "You don't think there can ever be too much carnage, do you Captain?" An impressive figure wearing sea captain stripes answered. "Theoretically, I suppose it's possible, but really, do you really think we're looking at that. The problem ahead will be that JKR will be too paring with her carnage. Look at her track record. All those people miraculously spared in CoS. That grand finale was a bit goofy, if you ask me. And in GoF, the great and painful death turned out to be Cedric Diggory. The series needs blood and carnage, to be taken seriously, and we FEATHERBOAS are just acknowledging the fact. She runs no danger of desensitizing us to death, as it stands right now." "But.. but.." interrupted another "You just proved my point. JKR herself doesn't think that too many Bangs are a good dramatic policy. "DIMINISHED CAPACITY is a Big Bang theory. Why, under Steady State, it would fall apart. DC insists that Bangs are important. So important, in fact, that it is vital to space them and not over- indulge in them, otherwise they become less Bangy, and we end up with a Steady State!" I decided that the only way I was going to get any attention ..or a drink...around here was to make myself heard. "I think DIMINISHED CAPACITIES works quite well as far as it goes, though I must submit your badges are awful." Half a dozen heads turned to look at me and I could see them taking a quick inventory of me. Finally the person who had been manning the badge making machine took a tentative step forward. "Err, I'm Abigail.. you don't like my badges? But....but they explain the acronym and everything!" I tried out my most charming smile. "Oh, I've nothing against the badges really...just, err... have you ever thought of a logo instead of an acronym?" By now, all the people at the bar were looking at me as if I was crazy. Having opened my mouth, I was forced to blundered on "...I agree that too many deaths will desensitize people to later deaths. In fact I'll go further and say that by extension, too many main characters dying early will numb people to main characters dying in the grand finale. And admit it ? the grand finale is the biggest bang JKR is working toward. The deaths have to be fewer, paced out better, and gradually build up to a crescendo. Both Lupin and Hagrid are too *close* to Harry for JKR to spring that on us yet. Hagrid's death would bring almost as much soul searching from Harry as Ron's death would ?don't you think that after so much emotion, any future deaths will seem repetitious and a tad tedious? Harry would go through the same degree of agony over and over again" That's kind of similar to what I was saying, Abigail intervened cautiously. "If it happens once, it's devastating. If it happens twice, we're very distraught. By the third time, we're so paranoid and, yes, desensitized, that we can't work up the emotion to care." Encouraged by that I whipped off my hat and moved closer to the bar. "Uh,uh. I'd say we're dealing with DIMINISHED CAPACITIES with a Progression spin to it. And our Jo frequently does that to build up tension. Look at the victims in CoS for example - a cat they'd all love to kick, an annoying if good at heart tag along, a classmate and a ghost Harry considers a friend, a prefect (connected via Percy) and one of his best friends. That's a progression of importance to Harry all right. Oh, and though Ginny might not be more important than Hermione, the added grimness lay in that she's most probably dead, even beyond petrified. Applying the progression to the deaths we've had to personally deal with so far. 1.The potters ? but we never knew them, nor saw them die, but the form the basis of our introduction to dealing with death. 2.Quirrel ? Enemy. A weak, unsympathetic character, no description of the death 3.Riddle ? Enemy. A more sympathetic character through the book, but eventually the villain ? and its only his memory that dies. Non-horrific description of `death' 4.Buckbeak ? Non Human. A creature they get attached to (more because of Hagrid), a more deliberate buildup of the execution-that- did-not-happen 5.Frank Bryce ? a sympathetic character we are barely introduce to dies instantaneously, Harry doesn't even know him 6.Cedric ? a sympathetic character, a competitor and acquaintance of Harry, dies instantaneously in Harry's presence Projecting: 7.Person X ? a sympathetic character, much better known to Harry, some one he looks up to or considers to definitely be on his side, but not his inner circle, death might be described 8.Person Y ? some one on the inner circle, though not the immediate inner circle, who's death will devastate Harry. A prominent secondary character. 9.Person Z ? One of the Trio, or very very close. So no, I don't think the OotP death will be a "BIG" death in the sense of a primary character or even a prominent secondary character dying. JKR is overly sensitive to death ? she cried over Cedric for goodness sake! So the statement that it's a "Bad death" doesn't necessarily mean a prominent one. I'm not counting the "Enemy" section though ? Barty Jr's death has made it open season on them all, and the readers are not going to mourn all that much." "Lupin's storyline has been resolved." Abigail insists. "Can you point out a Lupin-related arc, apart from the ongoing intolerance- against-werewolves, that remains open? I think it's going to be Lupin." Elieen nodded- "I've known Lupin's going to die since his appearance in PoA. I've been hoping it won't be a Book V death, that he'd linger on a little, but Abigail's arguments are oh-so- persuasive in that direction." Eileen pauses. "I rather agree that JKR can't push all the deaths to the last books, and Lupin is the only person I see who can be quickly killed off." I had to shake my head "But that's because you foresee SO many deaths in the near future my dear--a bit Trelawnesque if I might say so. I contend that there are only three more attention worthy, good guy deaths. And in that case, there's still time for a progression. There's no rush to kill Lupin, unless he's ever so evil, in which case he doesn't count in the same way." "I'll tell you when he dies." Pippin snapped "Lupin's going to be around through Book 7. Which only makes sense. Your villain has to die in the last ditch." This was greeted by silence so I cleared my throat and hurried on: "So, if anyone buys my progression, who are the probable candidates for X? IMO Both Hagrid and Lupin count under candidate Y, as do the twins. Dumbledore and Sirius along with the trio might compete for candidate Z. They'd be reserved for books 6 & 7. "Well, even then" a voice interrupted "there are sooo many characters that fit the requirements of candidate X ? there's Colin and Percy and Cho and McGonagall, even Neville.. or how about Snape?" "Ah, but none of them are as perfectly set up as our dear Bill. What function does Bill play in the narrative? He's just one of many "elder brother' figures--talk about redundancy and usurped roles. And his make up is startling similar to Cedric ? excellent student, straightforward, handsome and well liked ? and has been conspicuously pushed into the forefront of activity. He's someone liked and respected by Harry, and the first of Harry's generation to actually qualify for being on the battlefront. Besides there are too many Weasleys ? one definitely has to go.(Ah! I can just hear a snide remark from Draco...) And Bill can definitely prove to be a loyal friend beyond anything Harry expects. Why bring Bill into the story so much in GoF? He practically took a year off from Gringotts ? or had an awful lot of traveling to do just to support Harry. Molly turning up at the tasks in lieu of Harry's family is understandable, but why not Arthur along with her? He's around in England isn't he? Or why not Charlie who's also over from Romania around the time of the tasks? Nope, it had to be Bill, untiringly dragged in all the way from Egypt. Smacks of a conscious agenda to me!! Marina has another approach: "Think back to every action movie you've ever seen. How can you tell when a character is going to die?" There's a long silence while everyone ponders the question. "When something good is about to happen to them?" ventures Cindy after a while. "Exactly!" Marina bangs the table so hard that everyone's glasses jump. "When that veteran cop talks about retiring at the end of the case; when the baby-faced rookie soldier reads that letter from his pretty fiance back in Iowa; when that hard-bitten commando waxes poetic about the Montana ranch where he's going to settle down once the mission is over -- that's when you stamp 'Dead Meat' on the character's forehead." I grined cheerfully." I know you're using that as an argument against Hagrid, Mariana--and you believe that happy things don't seem to be on the cards for Lupin. But don't you agree that Bill's just about ripe for romance and settling down? What say we hear more about his dreams and aspirations in OotP? After all, it's a fact well established that a single young man with a good job must be in search of a wife... So Nope, Its not going to be Lupin or Hagrid yet ? OotP is Bill's stage....oh, and George, could I have a scotch on the rocks please?" Errol From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Apr 11 07:58:07 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 07:58:07 -0000 Subject: Proof or at least Evidence Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55156 It's not exactly a secret that Harry as lead a very sheltered life in both the magic and muggle world, so there is virtually zero chance that he has ever been to Little Hangleton, the location of the Riddle mansion. Yet Harry did notice landmarks when he was in the grave yard; the little church, the big house in the distance, and one would assume he saw the light of the town so he would know its location relative to the graveyard. If Harry were to draw a map of the graveyard with all the landmarks he saw, and their relative location and distance, and people went to investigate, it would prove that Harry know something about a place that he couldn't know anything about. - location and possibly a description of the Church - location of Riddle house - layout of graveyard - accurate detailed description of Tom Riddles tombstone - the angel grave marker that was hit and damaged by a stunning curse - description of other gravestones. In addition, Harry, through his dreams, has been inside the Riddle house while his dream memories may have faded, he could probably remember enough details to establish some credibiity. - mullioned window at the front door. - the small kitchen door hidden by ivy - the fact that the Riddle house is rundown and currently unoccupied - the dusty staircase - the hallway to the room Voldemort was in - the room Voldemort was in - the location of the gardener's shack - the location of the gardener's house key - the kitchen - description of Frank Bryce I do have to admit that there are story details in the beginning of GoF that Harry wouldn't have. For examples, while he may have seen the Frank Bryce -Death of the Riddles story play out in his dream, he probably wouldn't have details like the names of people and places. I think most of those details were in there for the benefit of us, the readers. But Harry would have all the visual images, or at least all of them that he could remember. I think it's a great idea, I just wonder if anyone in the book will think of it too. Just a thought. bboy_mn From nezray2001 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 10 21:51:54 2003 From: nezray2001 at yahoo.com (Ines Echegaray) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 14:51:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: Ron In-Reply-To: <1df.67b7d02.2bc72b04@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030410215154.17466.qmail@web11907.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55157 t.forch at mail.dk writes: > In any case I find it incredible that Ron should qualify >for the team at this late point - I hope that this is a >hoax or that Rowling has a very, very good explanation up >her sleeve, because, frankly, I am sceptical. Faith: I'm sure there will be alot of parents not sending their kids back to school this year, and thats why there would be room on the team. Nez: It may very well be a hoax but why is the possibility of it so unlikely? It's a small school, the position is available and he's, actually, in a good position to be chosen. He already has had three brothers on the team...who are good. Besides the advantage of his athletic gene pool, who do you think gets to play defense when you have three older brothers who excell at a sport? How many goalies are the youngest in a family? It just doesn't seem at all like a stretch to me. "Ines" --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From drdara at yahoo.com Thu Apr 10 22:01:21 2003 From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 15:01:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: Ron In-Reply-To: <1df.67b7d02.2bc72b04@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030410220121.84239.qmail@web14506.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55158 Faith wrote: I'm sure there will be alot of parents not sending their kids back to school this year, and thats why there would be room on the team. There's room for a keeper because the last keeper and team captain has graduated. There is no keeper. And Ron is only logical to be on this team. I don't get why everyone is so surprised. And I don't think anyone is going to keep their kids home, unless they are predominantly muggle, because I can't see them wanting to stop their kids education or send them far away to another school in another country. Maybe some Slytherins will send their kids to Durmstrang, gee maybe Draco will finally get to go there. Danielle __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com From galadriel1 at mail.charter.net Fri Apr 11 01:20:04 2003 From: galadriel1 at mail.charter.net (abhamghp) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 01:20:04 -0000 Subject: OOP: DADA "poisoned honey" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55159 When I think of poisoned honey, I think of something that has a deceptive appearance. Here's why: honey has a very sweet taste, but if it were poisoned, it could still do harm in spite of its sweetness. Could the new DADA teacher be an entirely new character, one who appears to be very wholesome and beautiful and good, but has a sinister side that perhaps the trio is able to expose? Just a thought, hopefully a new one? What do you think of the possibility of this? "abhamghp" From briony_coote at hotmail.com Fri Apr 11 04:42:51 2003 From: briony_coote at hotmail.com (Briony Coote) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 16:42:51 +1200 Subject: Another possibility for clearing Sirius (FF reference) Message-ID: <000001c2ffe4$cfba13a0$21a7a7cb@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 55160 Could Pettigrew's severed finger be used to clear Sirius, if it is still available? Suppose they could put some locator charm on it or something to demonstrate the true fate of Peter Pettigrew? They do this in the fanfic "A Sirius Affair." Briony [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ratchick22 at hotmail.com Fri Apr 11 05:59:33 2003 From: ratchick22 at hotmail.com (herm - own - ninny) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 05:59:33 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] A relayed post from a 'would-be-should-be-can't-be-right-now' HP4GU-er Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55161 RE: Tammy Rizzo's post on Malfoy: wow, incredibly interesting! I've tried and failed to find Elkin's essay in the past (I'm terribly inept at browsing through yahoogroups *hangs head*) if anyone has a link for me I will be eternally grateful :) As to the actual post, I agree with most everything you've said in regards to Draco, I especially like this quote "He's trying to be his father, when he clearly isn't." great insight into the character! Why is it that you feel Draco's peers dislike or disrespect him. I never really got this impression from canon, quite the opposite in fact. I felt that he was genuinly popular with his housemates. In PoA when he gets sliced up by Buckbeak, they are concerned, and the level of Pansy's concern especially (she bursts into tears) sugests that this concern goes beyond acting up because of their dislike for Hagrid or what have you. Also, during the Yule Ball in GoF, Pansy is said to be clutching Draco's hand, implying (to me at least) that she is proud to have him as a partner and is trying to show it off. Whether Draco is genuinly liked or not, I think it's safe to say that he is incredibly popular within his house. He actively seeks attention, whether it be good or bad, and is very good at getting it. lastly, what makes you think that Draco is an average student. I am not arguing with you on this, it's just I've been wondering myself how able he is at school. Fanfic authors interpret him anywhere from much less skilled than Harry to the second best student in his year (second only to Hermione). Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Is Draco a good student? His father seemed to expect high marks from him in CoS. Is this because he is truly capable of being top of his class, or simply because Lucius expects much from him and wants to embarass him for being so "average." dina _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From erinellii at yahoo.com Fri Apr 11 06:51:09 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 06:51:09 -0000 Subject: OOP: Ron In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55162 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grace701" wrote: > Faith wrote: > > > > I'm sure there will be alot of parents not sending their kids back > to school > > this year, and thats why there would be room on the team. > > > This is what I've been asking since I got here?! lol But not in > regards to Quidditch, in regards to the way parents react to > Dumbledore's statement about Voldemort at the end of the school year! > > Greicy I would think that those who do believe Voldemort is back would be all the more eager to put their children in a safe place; ie Hogwarts. There may be a few less enrollments next year, but I'm willing to bet that many many more stay for Christmas break than in years past. Erin From abc10011 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 11 07:26:56 2003 From: abc10011 at yahoo.com (abc10011) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 07:26:56 -0000 Subject: Views on the most dangerous character in HP, Percy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55163 It is my understanding that Percy is the most dangerous character in HP. I believe that he is more dangerous than Voldemort etc. because when he will do something bad 1)it will be from the inside without a chance to fight back 2)he will know all the information from the inside 3)it will be hard to detect who did it. I think he will be damaging based on his personality and Ron's joke that he would turn his family in (Ron's jokes being correct many times, like about the award to Tom Riddle for killing Myrtle). I think he won't go over to the bad side, just he will be "following the rules" and many times in HP (and life) rules must be broken for good outcomes (aka Cos, a hundred rules broken there). I beleive that this issue for Percy will be the choice between easy and right, easy being following the rules and right being loyal to family because deep down he knows that rules aren't always right. The truth is that Hermione has faced this issue to a degree and has reached an understanding that rules aren't always right, however Percy still has a long way to go. Joe founding member UNSO (unforgiveables society) From heidit at netbox.com Fri Apr 11 10:08:07 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 10:08:07 -0000 Subject: Draco characterisation and Elkins' post (was A relayed post) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55164 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "herm - own - ninny" wrote: > I've tried and failed to find Elkin's essay in > the past (I'm terribly inept at browsing through yahoogroups *hangs head*) > if anyone has a link for me I will be eternally grateful :) I actually posted it on this thread a few days ago, but as I'm replying to some of your insights anyway, I'll link to that here instead of just zapping it to you offlist: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/54917 > Why is it that you feel Draco's peers dislike or disrespect him. I never > really got this impression from canon, quite the opposite in fact. I felt > that he was genuinly popular with his housemates. In PoA when he gets sliced > up by Buckbeak, they are concerned, and the level of Pansy's concern > especially (she bursts into tears) sugests that this concern goes beyond > acting up because of their dislike for Hagrid or what have you. I agree with the idea that Draco gets attention from and some level of concern from his housemates - yes, especially Pansy - but there are other possible reasons for this: 1. He is the Seeker and injury to him could cause problems for the team. In the previous year, it's strongly implied that Slytherin beat both Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff, and given the Harry-narrator perspective issues in the books, had they won despite Draco not catching the Snitch, it would've been mentioned, at least as an aside. So his presence on the team might be something that the other Quidditch-concerned kids in his House would be interested in or care about, whether they care about him as a person or not. 2. His father is clearly powerful and at least somewhat monied (or has connections to the broom company) and other purebloods in Slytherin might've instructed their kids to Not Be Mean To Malfoy. 3. Slytherins have an Us vs Them mentality, which would mean that any attack, assault or transgression against any Slytherin by any student - or even teacher - from another house would be considered an attack on all of them, and would be treated accordingly, with support for the injured and malice towards the "attacker". All of the above might mean that in certain circumstances, Draco gets superficial or "surround-sound" support from his housemates, which could lead him to think that he's doing the right thing, or behaving in a proper Slytherin manner, even where, empirically, he's not. > lastly, what makes you think that Draco is an average student. I am not > arguing with you on this, it's just I've been wondering myself how able he > is at school. Fanfic authors interpret him anywhere from much less skilled > than Harry to the second best student in his year (second only to Hermione). > Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Is Draco a good student? His father > seemed to expect high marks from him in CoS. Is this because he is truly > capable of being top of his class, or simply because Lucius expects much > from him and wants to embarass him for being so "average." I'm one of the people who think that the only Muggle-born students whose marks are higher than his in PS/SS is Hermione, but there might be random Ravenclaw purebloods whose marks top Draco's in various classes - I don't think that would insult Lucius' sensibilities quite as much. Also, as evidence for Draco being on the smarter side, we have the noninclusion of him with Crabbe & Goyle on the list of People Harry is Surprised To Hear Passed Their End of Term Exams, and the fact that Snape praises him in class. If he were utterly incompetent, that wouldn't happen - although a little puffery is possible - in other words, I'm sure he's not always better than Hermione in Potions, but I'm also sure that he's not messing everything up. He never makes a cauldron explode unless someone throws a firework into it. Further, a parent having high expectations for a child is not a terrible thing - but a parent having expectations for a child where the parent *knows* the child cannot achieve them is pretty much abusive. So if you think that Draco is stupid, then you naturally have to think that Lucius is even crueler than he would otherwise be, IMHO. Anyhow - go read Elkins' post and some of those other threads - v. interesting stuff! Heidi *Ask me about Nimbus - 2003 :: the first international Harry Potter symposium* http://www.hp2003.org From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Fri Apr 11 11:13:00 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 11:13:00 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Bill is Ever So Dead with DIMINISHED CAPACITIY (was: Lupin is Ever so Dead In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55165 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "errolowl" wrote: > "Exactly!" Marina bangs the table so hard that everyone's glasses > jump. "When that veteran cop talks about retiring at the end of the > case; when the baby-faced rookie soldier reads that letter from his > pretty fiance back in Iowa; when that hard-bitten commando waxes > poetic about the Montana ranch where he's going to settle down once > the mission is over -- that's when you stamp 'Dead Meat' on the > character's forehead." > > I grined cheerfully." I know you're using that as an argument > against Hagrid, Mariana--and you believe that happy things don't > seem to be on the cards for Lupin. But don't you agree that > Bill's just about ripe for romance and settling down? What say we > hear more about his dreams and aspirations in OotP? After all, > it's a fact well established that a single young man with a good > job must be in search of a wife... Hmm... You know, Errol, I think you're onto somethng here. In the later chapters of GoF, I seem to recall a definite suggestion of Fleur Delacour finding Bill rather... uhm... fanciable. And then we get a hint that Fleur might be returning to England the following year. Sounds to me like there is romance blooming in Bill's future, which, for a supporting character, is a sure-fire way to lower life expectancy. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Fri Apr 11 11:22:44 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 11:22:44 -0000 Subject: Draco characterisation and Elkins' post (was A relayed post) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55166 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "heiditandy" wrote: > Also, as evidence for Draco being on the smarter side, we have the > noninclusion of him with Crabbe & Goyle on the list of People Harry > is Surprised To Hear Passed Their End of Term Exams, and the fact > that Snape praises him in class. If he were utterly incompetent, > that wouldn't happen - although a little puffery is possible - in > other words, I'm sure he's not always better than Hermione in > Potions, but I'm also sure that he's not messing everything up. He > never makes a cauldron explode unless someone throws a firework into > it. I think there is also some evidence that Draco is good at Charms -- in fact, I've argued that it may be his best subject. Snape picks him to go against Harry in the Duelling Club, and while there's almost certainly a political aspect to that choice, I don't think Snape would've put Draco on the spot like that if he thought the kid was going to embarass Slytherin house in front of the whole school. And, in fact, Draco holds his own quite well, culminating in the Serpensortia spell -- which he must've been taught outside the classroom, since none of the Trio were familiar with it. It doesn't say so specifically, but conjuring a live snake out of nothing seems like a pretty advanced spell to me, yet Snape was confident in Draco's ability to do it. And at other times, whenever we see Draco cast a spell, it always works the way it's supposed to. Problem is, we haven't been shown a definite correlation between magical ability and intelligence. I can see how potions would require smarts, and possibly things like Arithmancy or Ancient Runes, but Charms? I don't know. It's possible that Draco is an averagely intelligent kid with a lot of magical ability. He also doesn't appear to have a lick of common sense or emotional control, which makes his intelligence even harder to judge. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From clio44a at yahoo.com Fri Apr 11 13:12:34 2003 From: clio44a at yahoo.com (clio44a) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 13:12:34 -0000 Subject: OOP: Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <1dc.7368a56.2bc7171e@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55167 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, RSFJenny19 at a... wrote: > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > S > Quote from the summary: > "Harry Potter confronts the unreliability of the very government of the > magical world, and the impotence of the authorities at Hogwarts. " > > This I found very interesting as well - does the Hogwarts part refer to > Dumbledore? Are we finally getting to a book where DD's influence in the WW > diminishes? The reasoning is certainly there - people who don't believe LV > is back might have issues with DD as Fudge did in the end of GoF. I got the > impression before that during LV's reign DD was the one everyone could trust, > so to speak, but now I wonder about the divisions among people before his > downfall - the pensieve in GoF shows a scene post-LV where DD appears to be > in high standing, but was that a recent change, after the fall of LV? > > ~Jenny, who has to stop reading the summary or she'll never sleep tonight.... I'm sure we will learn that Dumbledore is only human. Right now Harry thinks of him as a god-like being, all-knowing and omnipotent. It will be easy for Fudge to dismiss Ddores opinions as the rambling of an old madman. Remember how Ddore already has a reputation of being being powerful and brilliant, but a bit mad? I wonder if Ddore will regret that he didn't take the job as Minister when it was offered to him in the past. On the other hand Ddore will be much less restrained in his actions if he was suspended as headmaster, right? It would be interesting to see how Hogwarts is functioning without Ddore. I actually think there wouldn't be so much of a difference. At least not in the perception of the most wizards and the students. After all it is just Harry who has this special relation to Ddore. BTW, is Lucius Malfoy still on the Hogwarts Board of Governors or not? Clio, looking forward to learn more about wizard politics. From abc10011 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 10 21:21:27 2003 From: abc10011 at yahoo.com (abc10011) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 21:21:27 -0000 Subject: OOP: Summary/Spoiler at TLC? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55168 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "devonturcotte" wrote: >Quote from Olivia: > >Funny how everyone refers to the new DADA teacher as a she. Has >that >been confirmed or does the term 'poison honey' have a more >feminine >feel to it? > >I believe JKR mentioned in a recent interview (as in, the last few >months) that the new DADA teacher will be female. JKR said that the DADA is a she in an interview (Newsround interview, September 19, 2002). Vote for legalizing the unforgivables, join the Unforgiveables Society, (UNSO). Joe From despathcray at yahoo.com.sg Fri Apr 11 04:56:40 2003 From: despathcray at yahoo.com.sg (too_excited_pigwidgeon) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 04:56:40 -0000 Subject: OOP: Combining the clues... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55169 Disgruntled elf. I think the disgruntled elf would be winky, most probably because winky was already alittle disgruntled by her masters death.Maybe winky would blame harry for everything and maybe even do something we never thought an elf would do, which would lead dobby to try save harry again, and somehow dies in the process. Order of the pheonix. Someone posted(i cannot remember who)that the order of the pheonix could actually mean something like the command of the Pheonix, which i totally agree. And someone else(i cant remember who, again) posted that the round room in harry's dream could be the hallway with one door that he keeps dreaming about, and that the cover could be showing that the hallway is spinning, most probably in his dream. I agree with that too. When i look at the UK adult cover, there is a pheonix in somekind of a room or doorway. Could it be that harry keeps dreaming about a hallway, and somehow either in his dream,or in his reality, he finds the hallway with the door and enters it, finding a pheonix statue or just a pheonix, which tells him what to do, or points him in the right direction. So there. What do you all think? From Nickamano at btinternet.com Fri Apr 11 10:07:20 2003 From: Nickamano at btinternet.com (Nick) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 10:07:20 -0000 Subject: OOP: DADA "poisoned honey" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55170 Lockhart could have been described this way - sweet on the outside with a core of badness. I don't for a second think he's making a comeback, but it widens the scope of the kind of person it might refer to. Nickamano From JessaDrow at aol.com Fri Apr 11 10:07:39 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 06:07:39 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Views on the most dangerous character in HP, Percy Message-ID: <1d5.72a05a2.2bc7edeb@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55171 In a message dated 4/11/03 5:42:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, abc10011 at yahoo.com writes: > I think he will be damaging based on his personality and Ron's joke > that he would turn his family in (Ron's jokes being correct many > times, like about the award to Tom Riddle for killing Myrtle). > I don't think Percy is evil. He's just one of those people who put more weight in the rules and their own importance. I do however think he loves and cares for his family very much, we see evidence of this in GoF when he went rushing to Ron's side when he came out of the lake. I see him as using the information he has to fight on the inside. And quite possibly in danger from Voldemort, because of all of his knowledge and his ties to Harry. And I do see Percy putting his family first when it really counts. He is ofcourse first and formost a Weasley. ~Faith~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From JessaDrow at aol.com Fri Apr 11 10:10:30 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 06:10:30 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: Ron Message-ID: <14c.1e11d69d.2bc7ee96@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55172 In a message dated 4/11/03 5:41:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, erinellii at yahoo.com writes: > I would think that those who do believe Voldemort is back would be > all the more eager to put their children in a safe place; ie Hogwarts. > There may be a few less enrollments next year, but I'm willing to bet > that many many more stay for Christmas break than in years past. > > You've got a point but I see alot of parents taking Fudge's side of things, and not believing Dumbledore. Besides with Wood graduating this year the team will be in need of a beater, and I can see Ron doing a good job. ~Faith~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aja_1991 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 11 14:08:59 2003 From: aja_1991 at yahoo.com (aja_1991) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 14:08:59 -0000 Subject: What If... Dumbledore had included Fudge in GoF Ch.35? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55173 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Devika" wrote: > Another thing: I know that the WW is going to be divided on the > issue of whether Voldemort has actually returned. But really, how > long is it going to be before the entire WW realizes that this has in > fact happened? Surely Voldemort isn't just going to sit around and > do nothing now that he has his body back. After a few attacks on > Muggles and Muggle-borns, won't people start to get a bit suspicious > that something is going on? And Voldemort himself, being the > megalomaniacal evil overlord type, will want full credit for > everything that he and his DEs do. I don't think it can be long > before Voldemort reveals himself in a way that will leave no one, > including Fudge, in any doubt that he has indeed returned. > > Devika De-lurking .... I'm not so sure. While Riddle/Voldemort does seem to have a penchant for overlooking or not knowing details (phoenix tears, "brother wands"), he does seem to be rather patient in letting his plans come about. Or, at least, more so now. Perhaps his plan is more a takeover by proxy, rather than in person by force. By this, I mean to allow for his DEs to assume (or continue) in their roles in the wizarding governing body or those in positions of authority or respect, gradually driving out or discrediting those who oppose them. - Crouch - no lover of Voldemort - appears now to be discredited as well as dead - I'm sure stories of his sparing his son will be spread via the rumour mill (or a freed Rita...). - We know Lucius seems always ready to jump on Arthur Weasley for any error - real or perceived. - Rita (whether in league with V or not) has done a lot of damage to Harry's character/perception in the wizard world with news of Parselmouth abilities and scar-related fainting spells. - Rita has also hurt Dumbledore's character with stories about Hagid, and I'm sure word of the werewolf hiring have been spread by angry parents of Hogwarts students. It's gotten to the point that if the Daily Prophet prints a story in which Harry states emphatically that he was present at the rebirth of Voldemort, with Dumbledore agreeing, and Fudge says, "That's crazy, the boy's delusional" - more would believe Fudge. And those in the Ministry who might openly believe Harry might be passed over for promotions, or be fired due to "obvious" mental issues. Perhaps it gets to the point where Dumbledore and his group are all sent to St. Mungo's for their continued crazed rantings about V being alive. Eventually those powerful enough to stop, or at least contain, the ascendancy of DEs in the ministry and V's new rise to power are out of the way. How long might that take? As long as necessary for V - he's going to live forever, you know. Of course, we've only got three more books/years until the story ends, so being an optimist, I'd hope the plot is discovered and squashed in that time frame... :-) aja_1991 From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Apr 11 14:24:13 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 15:24:13 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: Ron References: <14c.1e11d69d.2bc7ee96@aol.com> Message-ID: <3E96D00D.000001.39649@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 55174 Faith said - > You've got a point but I see alot of parents taking Fudge's side of things, and not believing Dumbledore. Besides with Wood graduating this year the team will be in need of a beater, and I can see Ron doing a good job. K - Uh actually Wood graduated at the end of book 3 - which is why we didn't get to see the scene where Dumbledore announces there will be no quidditch because of the Triwizard tournament and Oliver throws himself at his feet screaming "nooo, tell me it ain't so!" :) Also he was a keeper not a beater - the Twins are the beaters. K From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 11 14:34:59 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 14:34:59 -0000 Subject: The Motivations of Fudge and Dumbledore (WAS:Fudge: DE or not?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55175 Tom Wall wrote: > Although to be frank, I bet that Voldemort would have found a way > to return sans Pettigrew eventually. Now me: I agree completely. Dumbledore tries to tell Harry this at the end of PoA, when Harry says "But ? I stopped Sirius and Professor Lupin killing Pettigrew! That makes it my fault, if Voldemort comes back!" and Dumbledore responds "It does not...The consequences of our actions are always so complicated, so diverse, that predicting the future is a very difficult business indeed..." (Ch. 22). Tom again: > Dumbledore has more information than Fudge, via the Veritaserum > used on Crouch Jr., and the interview with Harry. Dumbledore > has kept secrets from Fudge, which is, IMO, a *major* error on > Dumbledore's part. Me again: This are excellent points ? why didn't Dumbledore call Fudge into the room before he administered the verisaterum to Crouch Jr.? Why is he keeping secrets from Fudge? I think Dumbledore is keeping secrets from Fudge because he knows what the implications would be if certain information is revealed ? what if Fudge did know about Harry being a parselmouth, and did know about the pains in Harry's scar? He would think Harry isn't to be trusted, just as he states at the end of GoF. And since Dumbledore seems to be getting Harry ready for an ultimate battle with Voldemort, it's not in Dumbledore's interest to have Harry viewed as untrustworthy. (As an aside, since all of Hogwarts found out that Harry was a parselmouth at the duelling club in CoS, and since we weren't told that Dumbledore made an announcement to the students to keep this information secret, I find it rather hard to believe that Fudge wouldn't have heard about this until Skeeter's article two years later...) I've thought about why Dumbledore didn't call Fudge into the room when the verisaterum was administered, and I think it's because Dumbledore wanted the chance to question Crouch Jr. on his own terms ? to be able to ask the questions he wanted to ask and to direct the interview to the issues he wanted answered. It's not as if he keeps Crouch Jr. from Fudge ? after Dumbledore has extracted the information he's looking for, he invites Fudge to do his own questioning. I think Dumbledore felt extremely personally betrayed by Crouch Jr. ? Crouch Jr. kept his good friend Moody under the Imperius Curse for 10 months, and Moody suffered because he had agreed to do Dumbledore a favor by teaching at Hogwarts. Moreover, Dumbledore completely fell for Crouch Jr.'s disguise. I also think that Dumbledore feels personally responsible for the fight against Voldemort, since it is Dumbledore, not Fudge, who is the only wizard Voldemort ever feared. So while he needs to keep Fudge in the loop and tries to enlist his aid, it's really Dumbledore's fight, not the Ministry of Magic's fight. Tom again: > Dumbledore accuses Fudge of being blinded by the office that > he holds, which I accept as only partially true in the "selfish" > sense that we read it, but as also true in the sense that Fudge > believes that he has to act according to public opinion... and > public opinion isn't necessarily in the favor of what Dumbledore > suggests. Now me: I agree that Fudge believes he has to act according to public opinion (which, I note, is the reason why the public elects high-level government officials in the first place ;), but I think it's important to assess the motivation behind his actions. What motivates him, IMO, is power, which is what I think Dumbledore is referencing when he states that Fudge is blinded by the love of the office he holds. So in order to stay in power, he has to please the public, and he believes it will displease the public to send envoys to the giants and to take Azkaban out of the control of the dementors. I don't see Fudge as acting according to public opinion in order to please the public; I see him pleasing the public in order to stay in office. ~Phyllis From patricia at obscure.org Fri Apr 11 14:40:34 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 10:40:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: On Why Hermione is a Gryffindor In-Reply-To: <20030411034542.69892.qmail@web21005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55176 On Thu, 10 Apr 2003, Becky Walkden wrote: > Greicy wrote: > > I actually meant what made her want to be in Gryffindor before that > and I think Patricia answered it beautifully: > > The first, and simplest, explanation for why Hermione wanted to be in > Gryffindor...... > > Me: Actually I think were making too big a deal about the idea of > "wanting" to be in a certain house. I think that plays an extremely > small roll normally in the sorting ceremony. We may be influenced here > because Harry "chose" Gryffindor. But Harry only had that option > because he was so ideally suited for Gryffindor. He was obviously also > highly qualified for Slytherine but if that wasn't such a "difficult" > choice as the Sorting Hat admitted I don't think he would have had any > chose at all. He would have been automatically selected not necessarily > to the house he wanted but the house he was best suited for. I agree with you. Hermione would not have been chosen for Gryffindor if she did not have the characteristic Gryffindor qualities in spades, no matter how much she wanted to be there. However, Greicy's question was not 'why was Hermione placed in Gryffindor?', but 'why did she *want* to be in Gryffindor?' Hermione said on the train that she wanted Gryffindor as her house, and this was at a time when she had no experience with and very little information about the different houses. It's fair to ask why she would prefer Gryffindor at that point. > As far as Hermione, she has proven her bravery under pressure several > times over. In the first book and PoA she showed great bravery and > daring. Even in the first book, setting fire to Professor Snape wasn't > something most first year student's would have dared do under any > circumstance. I think some people question her bravery because of her > poor performance verse the troll in the first book. But heck, your a > young kid, totally inexperienced, sitting on the potty crying and a > giant troll, way beyond your skills just happens to come strolling into > the bathroom. I don't think her inability to handle herself well there > is in anyway a negative reflection of either her bravery or daring. I > don't think you can even judge an 11 year old like that. And she's more > than made up for that since. Huggs Becky Yes, Hermione is a very bold, brave person. I don't really understand the impression some people have that she's not suited to Gryffindor. She has certainly demonstrated more bravery than Lavender or Parvati or Dean. And her bravery isn't just physical bravery (e.g. being willing to face all the traps and charms meant to protect the stone in PS/SS); she also has a moral bravery as well. No amount of peer pressure has caused her to shut up about her objections to house elf treatment, and she has been subjected to quite a bit of ridicule for it. I actually think Hermione is better suited to Gryffindor than Ravenclaw. Ravenclaws aren't just clever; they are supposed to have wisdom as well. I associate "wisdom" with moderation (among other things). Hermione is not a moderate person. She's not rash the way Ron is, but she has not mastered the art of compromise, either. If she had to be in Ravenclaw she would do okay, but I think she has more in common with the bold, brash personalities in Gryffindor. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From grosich at nyc.rr.com Fri Apr 11 14:45:00 2003 From: grosich at nyc.rr.com (Gina Rosich) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 07:45:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030411144500.57864.qmail@web13115.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55177 clio44a wrote: I'm sure we will learn that Dumbledore is only human. Right now Harry thinks of him as a god-like being, all-knowing and omnipotent. ME: Harry already experienced this in the past. There is a passage in PoA where Harry always thought of Dumbledore as being able to fix everything. But Dumbledore cannot reverse the decision on Buckbeak. Of course, he does come up with a plan later to change things. Which is why I think Ddore is in the know during the time-turned repeat of events. He was thinking up his plan all along of how to fix this matter. clio44a at yahoo.com again: I wonder if Ddore will regret that he didn't take the job as Minister when it was offered to him in the past. On the other hand Ddore will be much less restrained in his actions if he was suspended as headmaster, right? ME: I think Headmaster of Hogwarts is where he wants to be for several reason. As such, I don't think he'll ever regret not taking the MoM position. I think he genuinely likes to teach and deal with the kids. I think he can have a more protective focus on Harry. And he can do much more effective work behind the scenes (a la Snape) to accomplish his goals. It would be interesting to see how Hogwarts is functioning without Ddore. I actually think there wouldn't be so much of a difference. At least not in the perception of the most wizards and the students. After all it is just Harry who has this special relation to Ddore. clio44a at yahoo.com also wrote: BTW, is Lucius Malfoy still on the Hogwarts Board of Governors or not? Me: No, he was removed from the Board at the end of CoS. Gina :-) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Audra1976 at aol.com Fri Apr 11 15:34:10 2003 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 11:34:10 EDT Subject: Azkaban Death Eaters Message-ID: <1cb.73647d3.2bc83a72@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55178 Just a thought I wanted to get some of your opinions on... If Voldemort is successful in getting all his former supporters freed from Azkaban, will they all be so anxious to rejoin the ranks again, or might some of them have reformed? Will the loyal Death Eaters released from Azkaban be willing to fight alongside the Death Eaters, like Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle, who escaped imprisonment? Will the Azkaban Death Eaters have a beef with Voldemort for so easily accepting Malfoy et al back into the fold? -Audra- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Apr 11 16:06:38 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 16:06:38 -0000 Subject: OOP: Cover (candles) In-Reply-To: <15108451084.20030411002144@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55179 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susanne wrote: > > > Hi, > > Friday, April 11, 2003, 12:17:07 AM, Steve wrote: > > > I will point out the the original version of the cover artwork is > > donein full color not blue tint. The candles are white with yellow > > flames. > > The image is posted on the internet, unfortunately I don't > > remember where, but I do have a copy of it on my own computer. > > I've seen this version, too, but if IIRC, somebody > colored it in the way they imagined it might look if it > *wasn't* blue tinted. > > As I understood, the original is the blue tinted version. > > -- > Best regards, > Susanne Your right, I went back to the source and discovered the it was the site owner of BookCollection who colorized this image. Did a pretty good job of it too. I was sure that the first place I saw this color cover said it was a preliminary version, but it's possible the person who said that was just making an assumption. Sorry about the confusion. Steve/bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Apr 11 16:16:08 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 16:16:08 -0000 Subject: OOP: Ron In-Reply-To: <20030410215154.17466.qmail@web11907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55180 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ines Echegaray wrote: > t.forch at m... writes: > > In any case I find it incredible that Ron should qualify for the > > team at this late point ...edited... > > Faith: > I'm sure there will be alot of parents not sending their kids back > to school this year, and thats why there would be room on the team. > > Nez: > > It may very well be a hoax but why is the possibility of it so unlikely? ..edited... It just doesn't seem at all like a stretch to > me. > > "Ines" bboy_mn: We need to remember too that next year (6th year) the Chasers and the Beaters will be gone, the means the the 6th year team will be made up of all new player, so the only logical choice is to start building the team now for 5th years and below. There is no sense training new players from 6th and 7th years only to have them leave so soon. It they want a team that has enough time to build itself into a workable team, they need player who are going to be around for a while. I think they will have to start training a reserve team this year too. Otherwise, they are not going to have player ready to step in when the old players leave. We also need to ask ourselves, of the people we know of, who other than Ron is qualififed for the team. Just a thought. bboy_mn From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Fri Apr 11 16:59:03 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 12:59:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Views on the most dangerous character in HP, Percy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030411165903.82031.qmail@web20422.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55181 --- abc10011 wrote: > I beleive that this issue for Percy will be the > choice between easy > and right, easy being following the rules and right > being loyal to > family because deep down he knows that rules aren't > always right. Hey! This brings up a very interesting thought. Elkins suggested in her Crouch novenna that to some exten JKR cheats with the Crouch sub-plot. She doesn't give the tough and Livian and morally upright and rules-bound Crouch a fair chance, because it turns out in the end that he is none of the above, except tough. :-) Will Percy get the chance to stand in for this point of view? Or will he be dragged down by hypocricy? Somehow, I can actually see Percy being allowed to represent the other side without being a hypocrite. And then we can have a clash of ideologies without the waters being muddied by hypocricy. Not that there's anything wrong with hypocricy, of course. Eileen ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From amani at charter.net Fri Apr 11 18:41:37 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 14:41:37 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What If... Dumbledore had included Fudge in GoF Ch.35? References: Message-ID: <005f01c30059$fc20c040$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55182 Tom: Fudge. If Fudge had been there (and it wouldn't have been that difficult to include him) things would have been very different at the end of GoF. Me: I'm going to have to disagree. Not that it absolutely couldn't be different, but there's still a large possibility that it wouldn't. After all, Fudge heard Crouch say he was working under Voldemort's instructions but /believed him to be crazy/. It's certainly very likely that he would have said the same thing after hearing Crouch's confession to Dumbledore and the rest. As your writing also depends on a Fudge who is NOT a secret DE (which I personally believe), I'll take it from that perspective. Looking from this point of view, Fudge's denial is an almost instinctive reaction happening out of fear. It's an impossibility to his mind, so his mind chooses not to believe it. In such a case, it would take something extremely weighty to snap such strong denial, and Crouch's formal confession still might not have cut it. --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu Fri Apr 11 19:13:56 2003 From: rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu (susanbones2003) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 19:13:56 -0000 Subject: What If... Dumbledore had included Fudge in GoF Ch.35? In-Reply-To: <005f01c30059$fc20c040$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55183 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Taryn Kimel" wrote: > Tom: > Fudge. If Fudge had been there (and it wouldn't have been that > difficult to include him) things would have been very different at > the end of GoF. > Taryn wrote: > I'm going to have to disagree. Not that it absolutely couldn't be different, but there's still a large possibility that it wouldn't. After all, Fudge heard Crouch say he was working under Voldemort's instructions but /believed him to be crazy/. It's certainly very likely that he would have said the same thing after hearing Crouch's confession to Dumbledore and the rest. As your writing also depends on a Fudge who is NOT a secret DE (which I personally believe), I'll take it from that perspective. --- > --Taryn And me: Is all this "What if"ing meant to cast suspicion on Dumbledore's motives? If so, then I think it is wrong-headed. I believe that Dumbledore expected Fudge to question Crouch Jr. and hear all the things he, Harry, Snape and McGonagall heard. Thus he'd have been included. It demonstrates Fudge's extreme limitations (and I agree with Taryn also, his link to the DE's in some way) that he chose to bring a dementor despite McGonagall's objections and that he chose to allow the dementor to administer the kiss before hearing the complete testimony and letting whatever form of WW justice exists to take its course. The whole thing is fishy and fishy for a reason. This is meant to show us a side of Fudge and to cover up some important information. JenD > From grosich at nyc.rr.com Fri Apr 11 19:17:56 2003 From: grosich at nyc.rr.com (Gina Rosich) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 12:17:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] What If... Dumbledore had included Fudge in GoF Ch.35? In-Reply-To: <005f01c30059$fc20c040$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: <20030411191756.53277.qmail@web13114.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55184 Taryn Kimel wrote: After all, Fudge heard Crouch say he was working under Voldemort's instructions but /believed him to be crazy/. It's certainly very likely that he would have said the same thing after hearing Crouch's confession to Dumbledore and the rest. As your writing also depends on a Fudge who is NOT a secret DE (which I personally believe), I'll take it from that perspective. Looking from this point of view, Fudge's denial is an almost instinctive reaction happening out of fear. It's an impossibility to his mind, so his mind chooses not to believe it. In such a case, it would take something extremely weighty to snap such strong denial, and Crouch's formal confession still might not have cut it. ME: Inded. Which is why Fudge's denial became all that more frustrating when Snape dramatically showed him the dark mark as definitive proof. I mean, how could Fudge argue with THAT kind of evidence? But he did still disbelieve. Which is why I agree that it wouldn't have made a difference if he was there when Crouch was under the veritaserum or not. Gina :-) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stix4141 at hotmail.com Fri Apr 11 19:18:01 2003 From: stix4141 at hotmail.com (stickbook41) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 19:18:01 -0000 Subject: Percy's future (was: Views on the most dangerous character in HP, Percy) In-Reply-To: <1d5.72a05a2.2bc7edeb@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55185 abc10011: > > I think he will be damaging based on his personality and Ron's joke > > that he would turn his family in (Ron's jokes being correct many > > times, like about the award to Tom Riddle for killing Myrtle). Faith: > I don't think Percy is evil. He's just one of those people who put more > weight in the rules and their own importance. I do however think he loves and > cares for his family very much, we see evidence of this in GoF when he went > rushing to Ron's side when he came out of the lake....And I do > see Percy putting his family first when it really counts. He is ofcourse > first and formost a Weasley. Me: I agree with Faith. During the QWC riot, Percy didn't hesitate to head out with Bill, Charlie, and Arthur. And he came back with a bloody nose AFAWK, at the end of GoF, Percy still didn't know that Crouch Sr was dead at the hands of DE!Barty Jr. So we really can't yet gauge his reaction to that whole sordid affair. As to Ron's opinion, well, Ron's been known to blow things out of proportion. Percy might be ambitious, but he must inherently value his family more. If personal ambition truly was his #1 priority, then the Sorting Hat would've placed him in Slytherin. For the immediate future (Book 5), I can see Percy having a personal crisis. After all, someone he really respected and admired turned out to be not so squeaky-clean, and was then murdered. What a horrendous let-down, especially for your first job out of school! I can imagine that now Percy is also unemployed, which is always stressful. I feel sorry for the guy, after a lifetime of drive and aspirations for the Ministry, suddenly finds himself without direction. Percy might be confused about his family and the Ministry being on opposite sides of a political divide, but I don't think that he'd take up with a bureaucracy that has shown itself to be quite ineffective during an emergency. As a character, this could be Percy's low point, having so forcefully been knocked off his high horse. But that just means that Percy will come away stronger and wiser, and with a more clear definition of himself. Cheers! -stickbook From eclipse02134 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 11 19:22:36 2003 From: eclipse02134 at yahoo.com (Eclipse) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 12:22:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Parselmounth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030411192236.39956.qmail@web20807.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55186 I don't understand how Rita Skeeter's mention of Harry being a parselmouth can be of a surprise to anyone in the wizarding world. The whole school finds out in book two. Its one of the reasons why they were all sure he was behind everything. So none of these kids went home and told their parents about Harry being a parselmouth. I can't see this happening. Then none of these parents don't talk about it. I can't understand how Fudge could never heard of it before the article. Eclipse __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com From astratrf at aol.com Fri Apr 11 17:31:23 2003 From: astratrf at aol.com (astratrf) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 17:31:23 -0000 Subject: FILK: Slytherin Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55188 My husband is a long-time filk writer. Having been dragged kicking and screaming into Potter fandom by his wife and son, he was unable to resist the lure of a new topic for his filks. He asked me to please post this one. (Obviously, he isn't kicking and screaming any more!) Slytherin, Or, Harry's telepathic message to the sorting hat To the tune of "Let 'em in" by Sir Paulie and Wings Someone's wanting Gryffindor Somebody's nervous as hell Someone's wanting Gryffindor Somebody's nervous as hell Do me a favor Don't put me in To Slytherin (Repeat) (BRIDGE) Hufflepuff would be right on Gryffindor has Herm and Ron Lots of houses To put me in Won't you ignore Slytherin? (Oh yeah) Someone tell ol' Dumbledore (That) somebody's needin' a spell Someone tell ol' Dumbledore (That) somebody's needin' a spell I'll thank him later If I don't go in To Slytherin -Astra From innermurk at catlover.com Fri Apr 11 17:40:53 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 17:40:53 -0000 Subject: Patronus shape in FB Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55189 Hello. I am very behind in the list right now having missed ten days during spring break, and then three more immediate snow days. Forgive my lateness for posting this, but a while back there was speculation about the shape a patronus takes on. I believe it was tied into the discussion on whether or not Dumbledore knew about Prongs when he was talking to Harry. At any rate, I thought everyone would be interested to know that in Fantastic Beasts....under the Lethifold entry, the wizard's patronus "caught the lethifold on his horns" (paraphrased as I don't have the book with me.) This seems to suggest some kind of animal with horns as the shape of his patronus. So maybe an animal isn't that unusual for a patronus shape? Except that Dumbledore said that Harry's patronus took on a most unusual shape. Any thoughts? Julie From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Fri Apr 11 17:12:20 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 17:12:20 -0000 Subject: Azkaban Death Eaters In-Reply-To: <1cb.73647d3.2bc83a72@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55190 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Audra1976 at a... wrote: > Just a thought I wanted to get some of your opinions on... > > If Voldemort is successful in getting all his former supporters freed from > Azkaban, will they all be so anxious to rejoin the ranks again, or might some > of them have reformed? I highly doubt any of them have reformed. It doesn't seem the WW penal system is set up to reform, only detain those wizards who are too dangerous. If anything, they are probably more bitter and deranged. > > Will the loyal Death Eaters released from Azkaban be willing to fight > alongside the Death Eaters, like Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle, who escaped > imprisonment? Now this might be a problem but if Voldemort commands it they will probably do so, reluctantly. However, there is old adage that evil always turns on itself. This rift could significantly weaken the DE, making possible to destroy them and Voldermort. > > Will the Azkaban Death Eaters have a beef with Voldemort for so easily > accepting Malfoy et al back into the fold? > I think Voldemort is going to make a show of punishing the free DE's in front of the azkaban DE's, killing those who he considers no longer useful to him. Serena Moonsilver From beeanimagus at yahoo.com Fri Apr 11 19:29:46 2003 From: beeanimagus at yahoo.com (beeanimagus) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 19:29:46 -0000 Subject: OOP: Animagus Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55191 *Delurks* We know the Dark Arts teacher will have a personality like poisoned honey and I think it's interesting seeing what everyone thinks her day-to-day personality will be like - but what if she's another animagus, even a registered one? If she has a personality like poisoned honey, maybe she's a bee animagus, and if Dumbledore is also a bee animagus, then maybe we'll finally see romance for the Big D! Then again, figs are usually sweet too, and taste a little like honey, so I think the "poisoned honey" may be a clue that it's Arabella Figg as the new teacher. ~--Marigold--~ From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Fri Apr 11 19:58:55 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 19:58:55 -0000 Subject: OOP: Ron In-Reply-To: <3E96D00D.000001.39649@monica> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55192 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" wrote: > Uh actually Wood graduated at the end of book 3 - which is why we > didn't get to see the scene where Dumbledore announces there will > be no quidditch because of the Triwizard tournament and Oliver > throws himself at his feet screaming "nooo, tell me it ain't > so!" :) Right you are. Otherwise, a new captain and Keeper would have been chosen when Harry was in fourth year. As to the speculation about reserves, it's possible that there was no reserve for Keeper, or it was a student who left school before Oliver or who left at the same time. Alicia was spoken of as a reserve player before her third year, but we never hear about this otherwise. In general, it seems that normally, reserve players would be unused, since you cannot send in a substitute during the course of a match, according to Quidditch Through the Ages. If you're worried about someone being well enough for the match at all, that's another story, but if it's game-related injuries that might be the problem, three matches played over the course of seven or eight months (since the Quidditch season doesn't start until late October/early November) means you have a lot of time to recover between matches. I love your theory, Penny and Greicy, and also agree with Eb that much Trio tension is to be expected in the new book. That is how it could happen, absolutely. However, I wonder whether JKR would throw us for a loop and have Ron be so good as a Keeper that he would suddenly be the one getting all of the attention, making Harry think, "What am I, chopped liver? I've been playing since I was a first year!" I also think that Ron would not take notoriety well if this occurred --he'd very likely start offering to give out autographs and really make Hermione grind her teeth. (Remember the boasts he was shouting when he--among others--was trying to get Fleur's attention?) Ron would also probably think that there was something going on between Harry and Hermione if she sides with Harry over this, whether that accusation is grounded in reality or not. I hardly think Ron having a big head about success would be appealing to Hermione at this point. (Ironic, when you consider her little crush on Gilderoy Lockhart.) Ron would be a real prat about this, in other words. (And Harry's the one who has to catch the Snitch, after all, if they're to win.) I could also see Ginny being the one to puncture his inflated ego. (What are sisters for, after all?) This sort of thing could really alienate Harry and Hermione from him for a while, largely because Ron often does come off as a sore winner. He would probably accuse Harry of being jealous of the attention he's getting for once. I think it's possible that we're going to see new depths to which Ron can sink as a preening Quidditch success. I also think, however, that if this happened, there would be a heartfelt apology from Ron to Harry--and vice versa- -at the end (after Ron surprises Harry and comes through in the clutch to do something that hurts the bad guys, even though he and Harry hadn't been on speaking terms). JKR may have omitted the resolution between Harry and Ron from GoF because she was saving it for this book--or at least, I certainly hope so. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Fri Apr 11 20:06:59 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 13:06:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: Animagus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030411200659.40039.qmail@web40514.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55193 Marigold wrote: *Delurks* We know the Dark Arts teacher will have a personality like poisoned honey and I think it's interesting seeing what everyone thinks her day-to-day personality will be like - but what if she's another animagus, even a registered one? If she has a personality like poisoned honey, maybe she's a bee animagus, and if Dumbledore is also a bee animagus, then maybe we'll finally see romance for the Big D! Then again, figs are usually sweet too, and taste a little like honey, so I think the "poisoned honey" may be a clue that it's Arabella Figg as the new teacher. Me: Hi, Marigold! I wouldn't read that much into the phrase. :) To me, a personality like 'poisoned honey' means, as I've said before, that the person in question is soft-spoken and generally very nice when she's around you, but really is pretty nasty. As Eileen (I think) said, she is someone who does nasty things behind your back. I don't see those particular words as anything more than an indicator of the woman's personality. The reason why, to my mind, she's can't be Arabella Figg, is not that Figg is old (maybe), and the 'poisoned honey' phrase has a sexual connotation, but that I just don't read Arabella Figg like that. 'A mad old lady' who 'made [Harry] look at photographs of all the cats she'd ever owned?' No mention of her ratting on Harry to the Dursleys, or anything really unpleasant except the smell of cabbage, is there? As for the meaning of the name Arabella Figg... We've dicussed it before. Arabella means, AFAIK, 'Beautiful Sanctuary.' I'm not so sure about the meaning of the name Figg, but I read on http://www.m5p.com/~pravn/hp/f.html that the name might be derived from "Figgis, from a nickname for a trustworthy or reliable person." Maybe someone can deposit two Galleons on this topic, instead of my meager Knuts? As for Animagi, that's always a possibility, since there are 7 registered ones (in the 20th century, at least), but we've already met so many unregistered Animagi that I seem to be growing cold towards that particular 'plot twist.' I'm rather glad that Rowling isn't going to make Harry an Animagus. Maria, who thinks that the new DADA teacher might become her favourite character. ;) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 11 20:34:38 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 20:34:38 -0000 Subject: Patronus shape in FB In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55194 Julie (innermurk) wrote: > So maybe an animal isn't that unusual for a patronus shape? > Except that Dumbledore said that Harry's patronus took on a most > unusual shape. Now me: Well, all we really know from canon is that when Harry asks "What does a Patronus look like?", Lupin responds "Each one is unique to the wizard who conjures it." (PoA, Ch. 12). In an AOL 2000 chat, JKR was asked "Does the animal one turns into as an Animagi reflect your personality?" and she responded "Very well deduced, Narri! I personally would like to think that I would transform into an otter, which is my favorite animal. Imagine how horrible it would be if I turned out to be a cockroach!" (see: http://www.geocities.com/aberforths_goat/text.htm) I don't think it's too much of a stretch to think that if one's animagus reflects one's personality, one's patronus would also reflect one's personality. But while one's animagus is always an animal, it's not clear from canon whether one's patronus has to be an animal. I think when Dumbledore referred to Harry's patronus as "most unusual", he didn't mean that it was unusual that it was an animal, but rather that it was unusual because it was a stag. ~Phyllis From heidit at netbox.com Fri Apr 11 21:41:55 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 17:41:55 -0400 Subject: OOP: more info and spoilers about various things Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55195 This was something we posted on the-leaky-cauldron.org today: Harry Potter discovers that he, among others, are part of an ancient "Order of the Phoenix"...an order that grants him the privilege of a very special gift...the gift of life! With Animagus lessons, Quidditch matches, Cho Chang, mysterious notes, and Voldemort breathing down Harry's neck, will he survive to his sixteeenth birthday? **** Discuss. From jodel at aol.com Fri Apr 11 22:45:56 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 18:45:56 EDT Subject: The Fudge/Malfoy show Message-ID: <60.2fa2426a.2bc89fa4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55196 This is one that has suddenly come roaring back to center stage. It comes up every few months, anyway and we've all got our pet theories. I'll have to say that mine have undergone a bit of a shift since the last time we went round the track on this one. On a first reading of the series, I was absolutely convinced that Fudge had been the DE's candidate for his job. I am no longer so sure of that. For while it is no mystery to any reader as to just whose pocket Fudge lives in, now, or whose purposes his official actions or policies serve, there are clues scattered throughout the books which suggest that this was not always the case. It is quite possible that Fudge may be neither "ever-so-evil" nor even "ever-so-stupid". It may be merely that he is "ever-so-gullible-and-unlucky". At the time of the Longbottom affair Fudge was largely an unknown to the wizarding public. His position within the Ministry was high enough for people to have some idea of who he was, but not enough for many to really "know" him. Consequently, his "patrons" were able to install him without any real opposition from within, and his presence at the arrest of S. Black was a useful item to throw to the wizarding public through the Prophet. But the question of who actually backed him is not obvious. In rereading the Three Broomsticks passage of PoA in regards to what other people had to say of Peter Pettigrew, something struck me. Cornelius Fudge speaks with a remarkable degree of authority about James and Lily's *private* life and friendships. Things which do not make much sense comming from a casual observer. (How would *he* know *that*?) I think that unless Rowling is simply putting words into Fudge's mouth because someone needed to say it, and he happened to be there, (and the private lives of the poor, tragic, young Potters was tabloid news long enough for everyone to know these details - which doesn't seem to be the case, since it is apparently NOT widely known that Black was supposed to have been their Secret Keeper) we may have been ovelooking a fairly important clue. And that is that Fudge was evidently a *lot* deeper into Dumbledore's organization in VoldWar I than we've otherwise been led to believe. And if this is the case, that bit about "suddenly looking at him as if he had not seen him before" of Dumbledore's response to Fudge in the Parting of the Ways chapter of GoF has a lot more context than a surface reading would give us. It is possible that Dumbledore has just realized that he has lost another ally to subversion and he is seeing ghosts of the past. In particular the ghost of Peter Pettigrew. As to the steps leading down; If you've been rereading the series in preparation for the release of OotP, In the first book we heard only that Fudge is a bumbler, deeply dependent upon Dumbledore's guidance. In Chamber of Secrets, he half-heartedly tries to oppose Malfoy, although he soon knuckles under to Malfoy's pressure. He was still playing pig-in-the-middle in PoA. But he was in close contact with Dementors throughout that book and was beginning to act with a good deal more confidence in his personal authority while he was on stage. In the fourth book he is popping out with "Lucius Malfoy says" on just about every conceivable occasion, voluntarily running around in the company of Dementors, and opposing Dumbledore directly. It is clear that Fudge has been gotten at, and I think that this may have been very recent. Because it is beginning to look to me as if it was the Dumbledore crowd who originally put Fudge into office with little or no opposition from Malfoy & Co, who saw little to object to, and much that they might ultimately be able to work with. (Fudge's background is compatible with that of the pureblood faction. His being proposed for the position may even have been a sop to wizarding unity.) And Malfoy's faction has evidently seen no reason to displace him, when subverting him is just as easy. And if Fudge is something that has fallen through the cracks while Dumbledore was occupied with Harry and Sirius Black, at least Dumbledore realizes that now. At the very least, Fudge *knows* who Dumbledore's "old crowd" is. The major question still unanswered is; Why did it take the Death Eaters so long to get around to suborning Fudge? And I think the answer to this may lie in the events of PS/SS. I have already suggested in earlier posts that at some point during the events of Harry's first year, QuirrellMort made contact with Lucius Malfoy. And I suspect that Lucius was given other instructions than merely to deploy the Riddle diary. Malfoy was to make preparations for Voldemort's return. And, Malfoy, who, until that point had been living the peaceful life of a prominent pureblood, has complied. We heard almost nothing, and that primarily from Draco, regarding Lucius Malfoy prior to CoS. But since then, when he hasn't been right under our noses, he has been hovering about on the edges of every single book and there has been no avoiding him. Now we know why. The only thing we don't know, is whether, after the fiasco of the Chamber of Secrets, Malfoy's efforts were on behalf of his absent Master, or intended for his own future benefit. As for Fudge, clearly he knew nothing of Voldemort's return. How could he, if his loyalties have only recently been undermined by Malfoy? He does not bear the Dark Mark. And I do not think that Malfoy has filled him in on just what their "mutual" objectives are. But it is pretty obvious that Malfoy or one of his associates managed has to make contact and give Fudge the warning that the situation has turned extremely dangerous and that he had best take steps to protect himself. Hence the Dementor, who seems to have had other instructions of its own. We are limited by Harry's reading of the situation. But the news of Voldemort's return seems to have genunely stunned Fudge. It is just barely possible that much of his current bluster and denial may be to cover up the horror of realizing how just how thoroughly he has been gulled. For if he realizes that he signed a contract without reading the fine print, he also realizes that he isn't going to be let out of it. And he could be denying the whole situation exists as a last-ditch manner to save his own skin. But that "strange smile" that Harry noted once Fudge realized that Dumbledore was serious about Voldemort's return is highly disturbing. And by the end of the confrontation Fudge is actively and consiously opposing Dumbledore with everything he's got. But Tom's reading of the situation is right. Dumbledore's actions regarding Fudge have NOT been above reproach. He has been treating him very much like a puppet. I think that it is pretty clear that Fudge has thrown in his lot with *Malfoy*, at any rate. Whether he has suddenly decided that he might actually be in a position to *proffit* from supporting Voldemort, is less certain. But he has clearly chosen to cut himself loose from Dumbledore. With prejudice. This could get very ugly. -JOdel From JessaDrow at aol.com Fri Apr 11 17:16:45 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 13:16:45 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: Ron Message-ID: <15.ed1c195.2bc8527d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55197 >kcawte at b... writes: Uh actually Wood graduated at the end of book 3 - which is why we > didn't get to see the scene where Dumbledore announces there will be no > quidditch because of the Triwizard tournament and Oliver throws himself at > his feet screaming "nooo, tell me it ain't so!" :) Also he was a keeper not > a beater - the Twins are the beaters. > Me: Thanks KCawte for pointing out my errors, I actually meant that Ron would make a good keeper, don't know why it came out beater. My point about Wood.. He left at the end of book three, they didn't have any quidditch for book four, due to the Triwizard tournament, so once they go back to playing in book five they will be minus a keeper. I do think Ron will make a good keeper, and can just hear Draco calling Gryffindors team, 'The Weasleys team'. Heh. Ron comes from a long line of quidditch players, I have no doubt that he'd be able to hold his own. The only thing I do hope is that they don't make Harry captain, he's got too much going on, and I think Fred or George who have been playing the game longer would make a better captain.? > > Faith [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Fri Apr 11 20:12:36 2003 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 20:12:36 -0000 Subject: FILK: "Big D" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55198 I seem to be stuck on these novelty songs. This one is a filk of a song of the same name, "Big D", from the Frank Loesser musical "The Most Happy Fella." This filk is dedicated to Amanda, Quickdraw, and all the HP fans in the Lone Star state, Texas. ("Big D" in the original song is Dallas.) Big D SCENE: The Hut By The Sea; Hagrid tells Harry about the great Hogwarts headmaster. This man "Big D" I adore. He's a man of wit and a man of lore. He is "Big D"; knows the score. He's the Hogwarts Headmaster, Albus Dumbledore. You'll love to meet him; When we get there you'll greet him. What a treat for you we have in store When you see "Big D", he's top drawer. He is "Big D", favorite of J. K. Rowling, "Big D", who enjoys ten pin bowling,* "Big D", Hogwarts Headmaster, Dumbledore. They can't defeat him; Dark Wizards cannot beat him 'Cause they tried and failed in days of yore. Death Eaters "Big D" does abhor. He is "Big D", though Fudge might think it tragic, "Big D" should be Minister of Magic. "Big D", Hogwarts Headmaster, Dumbledore. Lucius may browbeat him But Malfoy can't unseat him He instills great *esprit de corps*. With Hogwarts "Big D", has rapport. He is "Big D", beloved by each student, "Big D", to attack him's imprudent. "Big D", Hogwarts Headmaster, Dumbledore. We love to treat him, We throw Feasts just to fete him. When we cheer, well, you should hear us roar. "Hooray for 'Big D'", now, once more! He is "Big D", he's the school's best director. "Big D", he's the Muggles' protector. "Big D", Hogwarts Headmaster, Dumbledore. *Read his Chocolate Frog card, if you don't believe me. -Haggridd From debmclain at yahoo.com Fri Apr 11 22:55:28 2003 From: debmclain at yahoo.com (Debbie) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 22:55:28 -0000 Subject: OOP: more info and spoilers about various things-NOT? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55199 Hi Heidi! I see this is no longer on the site. I guess it might be disinformation? It sure seems so. JK herself has said the trio (or at least Harry)will not be animagus's. If this information turns out to be true - can we trust anything JK says anymore? -Deb "Heidi Tandy" wrote: > This was something we posted on the-leaky-cauldron.org today: > > Harry Potter discovers that he, among others, are part of an ancient "Order of the Phoenix"...an order > that grants him the privilege of a very special gift...the gift of life! > With > Animagus lessons, Quidditch matches, Cho Chang, mysterious notes, > and Voldemort breathing down Harry's neck, will he survive to his > sixteeenth birthday? > **** > > Discuss. From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com Fri Apr 11 23:38:34 2003 From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 16:38:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OOP: more info and spoilers about various things Message-ID: <20030411233834.23192.qmail@web21108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55200 Heidi Tandy: > This was something we posted on > the-leaky-cauldron.org today: > > Harry Potter discovers that he, > among others, are part of an ancient > "Order of the Phoenix"...an order > that grants him the privilege of a > very special gift...the gift of life! > With Animagus lessons, Quidditch > matches, Cho Chang, mysterious notes, > and Voldemort breathing down Harry's > neck, will he survive to his > sixteeenth birthday? > **** > > Discuss Something odd about this blurb: 'Life' indeed is a very special gift... but it's one that live 'uns like Harry already have! In Harry's case, it's one that his mother has already given him...twice. Petra a n :) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com From heidit at netbox.com Sat Apr 12 00:08:46 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 20:08:46 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: more info and spoilers about various things-NOT? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55201 Not sure. I saw it myself in preview magazine, which my husband gets weekly from the local comic book shop but we don't know where they got it from. The publication has longstanding relationships with WB, among other companies, because of their coverage of comic and other media fandom properties, and they've had hp info for years. -----Original Message----- From: "Debbie" Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 22:55:28 To:HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: more info and spoilers about various things-NOT? Real-To: "Debbie" Hi Heidi! I see this is no longer on the site. I guess it might be disinformation? It sure seems so. JK herself has said the trio (or at least Harry)will not be animagus's. If this information turns out to be true - can we trust anything JK says anymore? -Deb "Heidi Tandy" wrote: > This was something we posted on the-leaky-cauldron.org today: > > Harry Potter discovers that he, among others, are part of an ancient "Order of the Phoenix"...an order > that grants him the privilege of a very special gift...the gift of life! > With > Animagus lessons, Quidditch matches, Cho Chang, mysterious notes, > and Voldemort breathing down Harry's neck, will he survive to his > sixteeenth birthday? > **** > > Discuss. ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From kristen at sanderson-web.com Sat Apr 12 01:10:33 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (GKJPO) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 01:10:33 -0000 Subject: OOP: Combining the clues... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55202 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "too_excited_pigwidgeon" wrote: > Disgruntled elf. > > I think the disgruntled elf would be winky, most probably because > winky was already alittle disgruntled by her masters death.Maybe > winky would blame harry for everything and maybe even do something we > never thought an elf would do, which would lead dobby to try save > harry again, and somehow dies in the process. > This would be interesting. We certainly know that Dobby is a big fan of Harry's. Also, the death of the "fan of Harry" is not necessarily the same death as the one that was "painful to write", so I think this is very plausible. > Could it be that harry keeps dreaming about a > hallway, and somehow either in his dream,or in his reality, he finds > the hallway with the door and enters it, finding a pheonix statue or > just a pheonix, which tells him what to do, or points him in the > right direction. > > So there. What do you all think? I think that if there was a phoenix in there, it wouldn't be a scary dream for Harry. Sorry, but I have to disagree with you here. Harry always experiences the "pure of heart" symptoms around the phoenix. It is LV who always get fearful around the phoenix. As far as Order of the Phoenix, I liked the command thing too. I think the meaning will be along the lines of the Order of Merlin. You must do (or be) something special to be part of that order. I think that this is what Dumbledore will tell Harry all about - this may be the key to why Voldemort is after Harry. Krisetn From erinellii at yahoo.com Fri Apr 11 20:11:39 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 20:11:39 -0000 Subject: What If... Dumbledore had included Fudge in GoF Ch.35? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55203 And me: > Is all this "What if"ing meant to cast suspicion on Dumbledore's > motives? If so, then I think it is wrong-headed. I believe that > Dumbledore expected Fudge to question Crouch Jr. and hear all the > things he, Harry, Snape and McGonagall heard. Thus he'd have been > included. It demonstrates Fudge's extreme limitations (and I agree > with Taryn also, his link to the DE's in some way) that he chose to > bring a dementor despite McGonagall's objections and that he chose to allow the dementor to administer the kiss before hearing the complete testimony and letting whatever form of WW justice exists to take its course. The whole thing is fishy and fishy for a reason. This is meant to show us a side of Fudge and to cover up some important information. > JenD This says it exactly. In my opinion, Dumbledore was not trying to "hide" anything from Fudge concerning Crouch Jr. He fully expected him to hear all the testimony, and could not have forseen the Dementor's Kiss taking that opportunity away. Probably the reason Fudge was not with them when they originally questioned them was that he was with Cedric Diggory's parents. Someone in authority needed to be with them at that time, and Fudge was the best candidate. Erin From JessaDrow at aol.com Sat Apr 12 00:17:38 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 20:17:38 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mrs. Figgs Message-ID: <1e5.6917d32.2bc8b522@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55204 Theres alot of assumptions that the Harry's babysitter, Mrs. Figgs from SS is really Arabella Figgs, whom Dumbledore mentioned in GoF. I've got a stupid question then, well actually two but thats getting ahead of myself. The reason given for her not being able to sit for Harry was a broken leg. If Mrs. Figgs really is the woman in question, then why would she live with a broken leg, when witchcraft can heal it? Wouldn't she have just apparated to wherever injured witches go and get it taken care of, in enough time to sit for Harry? Second dumb queston of the day. Pumpkin juice and pumpkin cakes seem to be real popular in the Potter world. Is it popular in England, or did JKR just make it up? ~Faith~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tammy at mauswerks.net Fri Apr 11 23:59:27 2003 From: tammy at mauswerks.net (Tammy Rizzo) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 19:59:27 -0400 Subject: (Fwd) RE: [HPforGrownups] A relayed post from a 'wou Message-ID: <3E971E9F.20398.3317DDD@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 55205 I forwarded Dina's message to my sister, offlist, and she sends this in reply. Unfortunately, she didn't send Dina's message, so I'm afraid this has to be taken on its own, rather than with full context. "Tammy" ------- Forwarded message follows ------- Dear Dina: Wow! Good questions! I'll address them, here. As for Draco's popularity in the House, I am comparing it more to Harry's popularity within his own. As you know, the books are written mainly from his point of view. He sees Draco hanging out with Crabbe, Goyle, and Pansy, and they are undeniably thick as thieves. He does have lots of classmates who like to join him in "Harry Stinks" buttons, and such. However, I have never seen, that I can easily recall, any instances of OTHER classmates actually seeking out Draco's company. Harry, of course, has Ron & Hermione as his "team," but he also has various other members of his house, as well as some in other houses who will come up and talk to him, seek out his company, or even just talk about the great things he's done lately. You never SEE any of that for Draco. Or if you do, it's so minor that you forget about it. Kids of that age may often join in particular teasing activities, such as "Harry Stinks," and they'll laugh at the joke that Draco is making, while he's there entertaining them. However, that alone is not an indication of popularity. It could simply be the average attention students give to someone while he's in the process of making the jokes, or running the game. In short, they might act that way with anyone. Harry, on the other hand, is obviously popular, at least in his house. Moreover, when Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff students are called on to take sides, they generally choose Harry, which puts his popularity level high above Draco. Compared to Colin Creevey, Draco is undoubtedly more popular, but not compared to Harry. At least, I have not seen them. Granted, my focus in reading has been more on Harry. One of these times, I'll take my sister's advice and get some colored pencils, to take notes. I agree that Pansy certainly likes him. I think, though, that if the match was not subtly forwarded by his parents, he wouldn't give her much of his time. After all, from the first meeting there in the robe shop, he made it clear that he only wanted friends from the best families. And who tells him who are acceptable families? His father, of course. He chose his friends based on family name, as is evidenced by the very first time Draco encountered Ron, and judged him harshly. "You must be a WEASLEY!" He'd already been indoctrinated. Pansy is, obviously, acceptable to his parents, or else he would have been indoctrinated against her, as well. With such indoctrination against mudbloods, and the 'wrong' families, surely he must have the same attitude against other members of his house. It is practically impossible for them ALL to be "pureblood" families of the proper caliber. I mean, what are the odds? This attitude toward some, if not many, of his housemates, must serve to make him less popular among them. You'll note at the end of Book 4, when he, Crabbe, and Goyle remained sitting, while the others stood, even Pansy defied him and stood up. The rest of the house stood up, completely disregarding his lead. If he was highly popular, surely there would be at least one or two others, besides his particular flunkies, who would follow his lead, or at the very least, waffle a bit before giving in to the crowd at large. These are, of course, only my observations. As for his being an average student, again, we only have it from Harry's point of view. I think we can all agree that Draco is good in potions, and not just because he's Snape's pet. You never read about Draco's potions going bad, as you do with Neville's, for instance. Draco seemed to exude, in the very first class, an excitement for the subject, not just the teacher. Possibly, because potions class is as close as they get to the dark arts? I don't recall, exactly, if I said he was an average student, or if the "average" I mentioned referred to his scores, in a Dungeons & Dragon mock-up. I think it was more that. As I said there, Hermione is practically off the charts on intelligence. Harry would have a 16, at least, and his wisdom, constitution, charisma, dexterity, are all markedly high. I do not see that for Draco. He is naturally good on a broom, true, which would indicate a high-ish dexterity. But he never gets wounded enough to show how high his constitution is. I don't know his true rate of healing, since he milks every paper cut for all it's worth. His charisma is moderately high, I suppose, but his wisdom is flat out pathetic! As a D&D character goes, he's average. I really couldn't say about his grades as a student, though. They aren't really mentioned, one way or the other. I think Lucius expects high marks simply because Draco is his son, and nothing less than perfection is acceptable. Lucius does not strike me as an understanding man, who judges people on their character and abilities. You make excellent observations. I have to go on memory here. Do you have the books in front of you, to look things up? :-) Thanks for your comments! I enjoy the debate. ------- End of forwarded message ------- From jmeec316 at aol.com Fri Apr 11 23:16:32 2003 From: jmeec316 at aol.com (Jaimee) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 23:16:32 -0000 Subject: Fleur and Wands (was: 50 Questions..) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55206 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "finwitch" wrote: > well... did he get a new wand or keep the fixed one? > > -- Finwitch I was reading the messages concerning Hagrid's wand, and something occurred to me: Is there really any proof that the wand ever snapped into pieces? I mean, it is suggested in the conversation with Ollivander....But really, if you think about it, Hagrid is not being truthful for most of the conversation. He responds uncomfortably to each of Ollivander's questions, and he lies in response to the latter question (about using the pieces). So who is to say that he is not lying in response to the former? Here is my reasoning....Think about who was probably in charge of expelling Hagrid? Dumbledore says in CoS that the Heads of the House are responsible for the punishments of their students...So, who was most likely the Head of Hagrid's house at this time? If DD wasn't Headmaster (which we know he isn't), than I would bet anything he was the Head of Gryffindor! And if Dumblerdore was put in charge of the punishment, do you really think he would snap Hagrid's wand when he believed deep down that Hagrid was innocent? Keeping Dumbledore's character tendencies in mind, I would definitely assume NO!!! Can't you picture the situation...Hagrid, with huge tears the size of water balloons crashing to the floor, howling to Dumbledore that he would "never do something like that!" That "Aragog would never hurt anybody!" And Dumbledore being his normal, everyone-deserves-a-second- chance self...hinting to Hagrid that he [Dumbledore] will be made Headmaster before long and that Hagrid can stay at Hogwarts as an employee--eventually as gamekeeper or groundskeeper or whatever. And I would bet that Dumbledore and Hagrid turned the wand into the pink umbrella the moment Hagrid was expelled--to hide the fact that it was never snapped into a million pieces. Of course, on one condition: that Hagrid uses his wand sparingly so no one becomes suspicious. Very typical of Dumbledore--right along the lines of exceptions he has made for Snape and Sirius and Remus. That's just my 2 knuts! ~J From carmenharms at yahoo.com Sat Apr 12 03:47:19 2003 From: carmenharms at yahoo.com (snazzzybird) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 03:47:19 -0000 Subject: OOP-Spoiler: Poisoned Honey? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55207 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros" wrote: > "clio44a" wrote: >> > > > Well, when I read poisoned honey, one person popped immediately > into > > my head: > > Fleur Delacour > > > > > Blech! No! Fleur isn't poisoned honey, she's vinegar that's gone off. > Sorry I stand by my original tirade. There is no way DD would hire a > Teenager to teach DADA in "times like these". > > Mel, who can't wait to meet this *new* DADA teacher. Now me: Mel, I agree totally. (And I have a similar rant somewhere back in Yahoomort's vault.) Not only is Fleur a teenager, her performance in the Tri-Wizard Tournament proved her to be the least competent of the four against dark arts. Dumbledore would have to be scraping the bottom of the barrel to hire her, and I doubt he'd get that desperate. I'm hoping for a new character. I envision a woman who on the surface is sweet and friendly, maybe even exaggeratedly so; but underneath is a treacherous, scheming backstabber. -- snazzzybird, who dislikes such people in real life but enjoys them in fiction From pepsiboy71 at mac.com Sat Apr 12 04:04:38 2003 From: pepsiboy71 at mac.com (Pepsiboy) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 00:04:38 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP-Spoiler: Poisoned Honey? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55208 On 4/11/03 11:47 PM, "snazzzybird" wrote: => I'm hoping for a new character. I envision a woman who on the > surface is sweet and friendly, maybe even exaggeratedly so; but > underneath is a treacherous, scheming backstabber. > > -- snazzzybird, who dislikes such people in real life but enjoys them > in fiction I've said this before....I think it's Narcissa Malfoy. This might be stretching it a bit, but we know nothing about her. Plus, it would cause a lot of strain at Hogwarts with V on the rise. Maybe she was once a decent woman, but after marrying Malfoy, turned dark. She is described as looking like someone tasting or smelling something bad. Just a thought... From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Sat Apr 12 04:16:28 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 21:16:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP-Spoiler: Poisoned Honey? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030412041628.45490.qmail@web40504.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55209 Pepsiboy wrote:I've said this before....I think it's Narcissa Malfoy. This might be stretching it a bit, but we know nothing about her. Plus, it would cause a lot of strain at Hogwarts with V on the rise. Maybe she was once a decent woman, but after marrying Malfoy, turned dark. She is described as looking like someone tasting or smelling something bad. Just a thought... Me:Uh, but why would Dumbledore hire Narcissa *Malfoy*? You yourself say that Narcissa might have turned dark - then there is absolutely no reason for Dumbledore to hire her at all. If she's not dark, and is against all that hem-kissing stuff, then I suspect Lucius Malfoy controls her movements pretty well, and would never let her teach at Hogwarts. No, I think that even though the DADA teacher has a personality like poisoned honey, she is not evil... just nasty. Snape's example shows that that's compatible. Maria, who, like snazzzybird, enjoys people like that in fiction, but is very happy she'd had no contact with them in RL so far. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catlady at wicca.net Sat Apr 12 04:17:26 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 04:17:26 -0000 Subject: Sorting Neville/working House Elves/Greek Mythology/Half-blood in Slytherin Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55210 "Briony Coote" wrote: << Since herbology is his best subject, he would be more suited for Hufflepuff. >> Andrea Ra replied: << I personally don't subscribe to the idea that certain subjects are traits of any particular House. Just because the head of house is the professor of a certain subject at this point in time doesn't mean that that's *always* been the case or that there's any particular House-wide affinity for the subject. So just because Sprout teaches Herbology doesn't mean it's "the Hufflepuff subject" any more than Transfiguration is necessarily the Gryffindor subject or Potions the Slytherin subject. That's a fanon construction. >> And I quote Andrea's reply so that I could make a forbidden "I agree" post. Faith wrote: << I always assumed [Neville and the Sorting Hat] had a discussion about where he wanted, and Neville was adamant about Gryffindor. >> I've always assumed that they had a discussion and THE HAT was adamant about Neville, while Neville kept protesting that he wasn't good enough for anything but Hufflepuff. "Lindy Brett" wrote: << The food. Do the house-elves cook it? Or magic it up? The wizzes and witches put no effort in. >> Most wizards and witches don't have any House Elves. CoS says: "Well, whoever owns him will be an old wizarding family, and they'll be rich," said Fred. "Yeah, Mum's always wishing we had a house-elf to do the ironing," said George. "But all we've got is a lousy old ghoul in the attic and gnomes all over the garden. House-elves come with big old manors and castles and places like that; you wouldn't catch one in our house..." MaggieB wrote: << Hermione, the goddess of the Harmony, was one of Mars' daughters. >> I'm sorry that you're the victim of my compulsion to nit-pick, but --- the goddess of Harmony, who was the daughter of Ares, was named Harmonia, not Hermione. The name 'Hermione' is related to Hermes (Mercury), the messenger and trickster god. abbeycarter wrote: << The two suitors dueled over Hermione and Neoptolemus was killed. >> And IIRC Hermione was executed on Neoptolemus's tomb (by Achilles?) as a burial sacrifice. Tom Wall wrote: << Well, we know of one very famous Mudblood that was sorted into Slytherin -- Tom Riddle. As for whether or not there are others, well, I agree that it would be an uncomfortable situation for them. In CoS, we learn that the password to the Slytherin common room was actually 'pureblood' for a while, so that doesn't seem to pleasant a state of affairs for a half-blood student. But it doesn't discount the possibility. After all, a half-blood, like Tom Riddle, could still turn out to be bigoted enough to join up with the pure-blood cause. >> As you mention, Tom Riddle was half-and-half aka Half-blood (note: the other week I was searching for JKR interviews and ran into some old article that said that the original title of CoS, previously known to me as HP & the Half-blood Prince, was HP & the Half Loved Prince). In my opinion, the wizarding bigots, even the Malfoys, draw a big distinction between Muggle-born and half-and-half, and only use the slur "Mudblood" for the former. I believe that Half-bloods could be Sorted into Slytherin without major suffering, as long as they didn't get angry or defensive at rude remarks about their Muggle parent ... Remember Draco' snide remark at Madam Malkin's shop about "they've never been brought up to know our ways. Some of them have never even heard of Hogwarts until they get the letter, imagine"? Under normal circumstances (not those of TMR nor of Harry nor of the hypothetical result of some wizard's one-night-stand with a Muggle woman), the half-and-half child would be brought up exposed to each parent's world, and (especially if heesh made strange things happen) be told about magic and even Hogwarts. Remember Salazar's original reason for objecting to Muggle-born students? He was afraid that knowledge of wizarding folk would get from them to their Muggle relatives. If the Muggle relatives already had wizarding in-laws, the knowledge would have already leaked to them. If I were Rowena Ravenclaw or Helga Hufflepuff and Salazar objected to a Half-blood student, I would point out that his objection is locking the barn door after the horse was stolen. So those originally rational generalizations could have led to a situation in which the purebloodists accept a Tom or Harry, a Half-blood with no prior knowledge of the wizarding world, while rejecting some hypothetical Muggle-born magic child who had been raised by a witch babysitter (who may have sought out the job after she noticed that a Muggle baby in her neighborhood was changing teddybears into spiders). From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Sat Apr 12 04:17:34 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 21:17:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OOP: Combining the clues... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030412041735.60254.qmail@web40510.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55211 GKJPO wrote:> This would be interesting. We certainly know that Dobby is a big fan of Harry's. Also, the death of the "fan of Harry" is not necessarily the same death as the one that was "painful to write", so I think this is very plausible. Me:Actually, IIRC, a month or so ago we had a big hunt for the source of that 'fan of Harry' quote, and no-one seemed to find it. The consensus on that, I believe, was that JKR had never made a statement about a fan of Harry's dying. Maria, who doesn't think that JKR would use a phrase like that anyway. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From patricia at obscure.org Sat Apr 12 04:17:42 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 00:17:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP-Spoiler: Poisoned Honey? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55212 On Sat, 12 Apr 2003, Pepsiboy wrote: > I've said this before....I think it's Narcissa Malfoy. This might be > stretching it a bit, but we know nothing about her. Plus, it would cause a > lot of strain at Hogwarts with V on the rise. Maybe she was once a decent > woman, but after marrying Malfoy, turned dark. She is described as looking > like someone tasting or smelling something bad. Just a thought... But Harry told Dumbledore that Lucius Malfoy was present at the circle of Death Eaters in GoF. What kind of idiot would DD have to be to then go and hire Malfoy's wife as a professor and give her free run of the school? I think he'd hire Fleur first, and Fleur is profoundly unqualified for the job. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From pepsiboy71 at mac.com Sat Apr 12 04:44:56 2003 From: pepsiboy71 at mac.com (Pepsiboy) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 00:44:56 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP-Spoiler: Poisoned Honey? In-Reply-To: <20030412041628.45490.qmail@web40504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55213 Me:Uh, but why would Dumbledore hire Narcissa *Malfoy*? You yourself say that > Narcissa might have turned dark - then there is absolutely no reason for > Dumbledore to hire her at all. Maybe Dumbledore has no choice? There are times where Lucius has managed to push things on Hogwarts before (ex. Dumbledore removed as headmaster, Hagrid sent to Azkaban, and to a lesser degree Draco as Keeper) through his 'influence' on the Board of Governors. From what I gather, the rest of the WW still considers him a an upstanding citizen (Fudge, anyone?), so maybe he'll go to Fudge and reason that since Hogwarts has had problems with keeping DADA teachers, to give Narcissa a try. From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Sat Apr 12 06:11:20 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 06:11:20 -0000 Subject: OOP-Spoiler: Poisoned Honey? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55214 Sacrebleu! I just erased my reply, so this is obviously going to be shorter and less eloquent than I expected it to be. I wrote: Uh, but why would Dumbledore hire Narcissa *Malfoy*? You yourself say > that > Narcissa might have turned dark - then there is absolutely no reason for > Dumbledore to hire her at all. To which Pepsiboy replied: > Maybe Dumbledore has no choice? There are times where Lucius has managed to > push things on Hogwarts before (ex. Dumbledore removed as headmaster, Hagrid > sent to Azkaban, and to a lesser degree Draco as Keeper) through his > 'influence' on the Board of Governors. From what I gather, the rest of the > WW still considers him a an upstanding citizen (Fudge, anyone?), so maybe > he'll go to Fudge and reason that since Hogwarts has had problems with > keeping DADA teachers, to give Narcissa a try. OK, Lucius goes for subtle. He *does not* go and make Dumbledore hire his ever-so-evil wife to be a professor at Hogwarts and spy there, and expect to get anything accomplished. He'd be able to gather more information using Draco, which I fully expect him to do (or at least give it a shot). IMO, there absolutely must be student spies at Hogwarts. It's the headquarters of Dumbledore, for crying out loud! And some people are saying that Voldemort didn't recruit schoolchildren. I personally would love to learn more about Narcissa, but I honestly can't see the scenario you suggest as a plausible one. As a matter of fact, I don't see any women we've met so far as fitting the bill, with the possible exception of Olympe Maxime, who has her own school to tend to. Maria, who would like to meet a female classmate of MWPP... they can't *all* be dead, right? P.S. If anyone could kindly point me to an extensive post of Sociopath!Sirius, I would be eternally grateful. From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Sat Apr 12 06:28:00 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 06:28:00 -0000 Subject: OOP-Spoiler: Poisoned Honey? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55215 Pepsiboy wrote: > > Maybe Dumbledore has no choice? There are times where Lucius has > managed to > > push things on Hogwarts before (ex. Dumbledore removed as > headmaster, Hagrid > > sent to Azkaban, and to a lesser degree Draco as Keeper) through his > > 'influence' on the Board of Governors. From what I gather, the > rest of the > > WW still considers him a an upstanding citizen (Fudge, anyone?), so > maybe > > he'll go to Fudge and reason that since Hogwarts has had problems > with > > keeping DADA teachers, to give Narcissa a try. I'm ever so sorry, I meant to include this into my previous post, but forgot: Pepsiboy, your examples are from before Lucius made the super-smart move of blackmailing the Governors. At the end of CoS he was kicked out of the committee. And also - none of them but the "Draco as Keeper" (he's the Seeker, btw) example deal with the direct management of Hogwarts, like hiring teachers or changing the curriculum. The Seeker!Draco question has two possible answers, IMO: either Draco really did try out for the team (and he seems to be a decent player, doesn't he?), or he did buy his way onto the team. The latter, then, would rather be an indicator of Snape's desire to be on good terms with the Malfoys than of Lucius's particular influence on the particulars of Hogwarts's running. However, Lucius does have an influence on Fudge, doesn't he? I think I'll reread JOdel's post on that - how convenient that it was posted today! Maria, at 1:30 am. *YAWN* From erinellii at yahoo.com Fri Apr 11 20:29:00 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 20:29:00 -0000 Subject: OOP: Animagus In-Reply-To: <20030411200659.40039.qmail@web40514.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55216 > As for the meaning of the name Arabella Figg... We've dicussed it before. Arabella means, AFAIK, 'Beautiful Sanctuary.' I'm not so sure about the meaning of the name Figg, but I read on http://www.m5p.com/~pravn/hp/f.html that the name might be derived from "Figgis, from a nickname for a trustworthy or reliable person." Maybe someone can deposit two Galleons on this topic, instead of my meager Knuts? > > Maria Maria, I looked "Arabella" up in the "Best Baby Name Book Ever" and it gave the meaning as "answered prayer". But those meanings are still pretty close. "erinellii" From natmichaels at hotmail.com Sat Apr 12 04:37:38 2003 From: natmichaels at hotmail.com (lorien_eve) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 04:37:38 -0000 Subject: OOP: Spoiler-Harry's Dream Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55217 Ok, so we know that Harry is having a dream about a door at the end of a corridor. And supposedly, that dream is worse than all the other nightmares combined. I don't have the acutal quote, but it's something similar to that. So, what could be *worse* than Voldemort? Or VOldemort coming back to power (like the dreams he had in GOF)? The only thing my feeble mind can come up with is that it has something to do with him seeing his parents being killed. Not a Time- Tuner thing, but just something that he can watch (like Riddle's diary or the Pensieve). What do you guys think these dreams are about? Lorien_Eve From hughroe at aol.com Fri Apr 11 19:18:16 2003 From: hughroe at aol.com (hughroe1957) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 19:18:16 -0000 Subject: OOP: Ron ( Reserves?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55218 At no place in canon is there any reference to any form of reserves for the house teams, if reserves had been available, then the confiscation of Harry's Firebolt would not have been that important, or Draco's wounded arm, just get the reserve seekers in for that game. And as this is the first time since Harry was chosen that the Gryffindor team will need new players, it makes sence. Just think, next book will need beatters and chasers. "hughroe1957" From Neotoma73 at aol.com Sat Apr 12 04:51:08 2003 From: Neotoma73 at aol.com (Neotoma73 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 00:51:08 -0400 Subject: What If... Dumbledore had included Fudge in GoF Ch.35? Message-ID: <158831B4.5F5C4B8E.026A9F31@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55219 In a message dated 4/11/2003 2:33:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, Gina Rosich writes: > Taryn Kimel wrote: > > > > I'll take it from that perspective. Looking from this point of view, Fudge's denial is an almost instinctive reaction happening out of fear. It's an impossibility to his mind, so his mind chooses not to believe it. In such a case, it would take something extremely weighty to snap such strong denial, and Crouch's formal confession still might not have cut it. > > > ME: > > Inded. Which is why Fudge's denial became all that more frustrating when Snape dramatically showed him the dark mark as definitive proof. I mean, how could Fudge argue with THAT kind of evidence? But he did still disbelieve. Which is why I agree that it wouldn't have made a difference if he was there when Crouch was under the veritaserum or not. > Fudge can argue because Snape is already discredited in his eyes. At the end of PoA, Dumbledore makes Snape look unstable *at best* to Fudge, in order for Dumbledore to arrange Sirius' escape. But that ruined Snape's credibility later on; when he shows Fudge the Dark Mark, Fudge can dismiss it because he already 'knows' that Snape sees things that aren't true, just like he 'knows' that Harry isn't trustworthy because he's a Parselmouth and has visions of Voldemort through his curse-scar. AnneL From gregorylynn at attbi.com Sat Apr 12 05:17:15 2003 From: gregorylynn at attbi.com (Gregory Lynn) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 01:17:15 -0400 Subject: Dedalus Diggle revisited Message-ID: <003f01c300b2$c8dfe180$42ad1e42@ne2.client2.attbi.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55220 Sorry to dredge up something from a ways back, I've been catching up on things and ran into the Dedalus Diggle conversation and wanted to add a couple bits. Regarding the mythological Daedalus, it was mentioned that he was an inventor and the creator of the Minotaur's Maze but I don't think it was mentioned that he was imprisoned in that same maze for a very specific reason--TO KEEP A SECRET--the secret of the ways in and out of the maze. Secrets and the keeping thereof are obviously an important element (if not a full fledged theme) in the novels so far. The other thing I wanted to point out was that Daedalus is in part famous for being a father whose advice was ignored. Daedalus made wings and held them together with wax and was trying to fly out of the maze with his son Icarus. He advised Icarus not to fly too close to the sun but Icarus ignored the advice, the wings melted, and Icarus fell to his death. This could also play into the "It's not our abilities, it's our decisions" theme. Regarding the latter, I think it's interesting to note that Diggle seems to make a number of fairly foolish decisions. What this might mean, I haven't a clue, just thought I'd toss it out there. ___________ Gregory Lynn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gregorylynn at attbi.com Sat Apr 12 06:30:58 2003 From: gregorylynn at attbi.com (Gregory Lynn) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 02:30:58 -0400 Subject: The Longbottoms revisited Message-ID: <005501c300bd$14f31600$42ad1e42@ne2.client2.attbi.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55221 Sorry for dredging again, still catching up and the "The Longbottoms" discussion fit in with a sort of half formed semi theory that's been floating around the deep dark recesses of my mind. To recap the discussion, some were wondering if Malfoy donated to Saint Mungo's in order to keep control over the Longbottoms who may or may not have been Secret Keeping and/or had their memories erased by Death Eaters after the fall of Voldemort. My half formed theory begins with the notion that Neville has been memory charmed which someone mentioned has been mentioned before. My "evidence" if you want to call it that is just that Neville doesn't seem stupid, slow, or incompetent, just incredibly forgetful. He always forgets to pack something, his gran sends him a remembrall, et cetera and so forth. This struck me as similar to the way folks describe the adult Bertha Jorkins while Sirius remembers the young Bertha as having a very good memory. Ultimately we find out that this is because of a strong memory charm. So far so good, nothing terribly earth shattering. Now I ask you, why were the Longbottoms tortured? Answer: Because the Death Eaters were trying to locate Lord Voldemort. And yet, it was just the Longbottoms who were tortured, why is that? Wouldn't you think that if you were a Death Eater and you were looking to locate Voldemort, that you would start with the people you thought most likely to have the answer? Is there anything to suggest that the Longbottoms were involved in Voldemort's downfall? Not that I can see. So if there's nothing connecting the Longbottoms to Voldemort's disappearance, why would they be the first ones targeted? Because someone told these Death Eaters that the Longbottoms were keeping a very important secret. My sort of half formed theory is this: The good guys have an incredibly important secret to keep. They have just seen the weakness of a Fidelius Charm demonstrated rather vividly. They know that at the very least there is some confusion over who is and who isn't a Death Eater, and that it is quite likely that there are spies in their midst. So they know that if they name a Secret Keeper there's a good chance that the bad guys will find out who it is. They go to Frank Longbottom, who has a young son. They make Neville the Secret Keeper and immediately put a memory charm on him to make him not only forget the secret but the very fact that he's keeping one. They know that memory charms can be broken however so if/when they need to get at the secret they can break it out of Neville's head. So Crouch et al hear through their sources that the Longbottoms are keeping an important secret and assume that it is the location of Voldemort. They torture Frank and Mrs. Longbottom (do we ever know her first name?) but neither of them actually know the secret so they can't tell, and Neville not only doesn't know he's holding a secret, but may not even be old enough to talk so they probably don't even bother trying to get anything out of him. Granted if being a Secret Keeper requires some affirmative acceptance of the secret, this is exceedingly unlikely. I don't think we know how long after the fall of Voldemort the Longbottoms were attacked. It wasn't immediately since people had begun to feel safe again. How long does that take, several months to a year? I think we need to assume that Harry and Neville would both be in the range of a year and a half to three years old. Far too young for any serious consideration on the part of either of them so if such consideration is necessary for the whole thing to work then this theory dies right there. But assume for the moment that it isn't necessary for the Secret Keeper to make an affirmative acceptance of the Secret, that it can just be placed in there. Now, what kind of secret is that important? I don't think there's anything that actually suggests that the good guys knew Voldemort's location, or even that they knew he had survived. While the Death Eaters knew that Voldemort had been trying to cheat death I think it's quite possible that the good guys didn't. We know that Professor Trelawney made a previous legitimate prediction. We know that she didn't remember the one at the end of PoA so I assume she wouldn't remember the first one. We have no idea what it was. At the end of SS, Dumbledore says he "cannot" tell Harry why Voldemort wanted to kill him. I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that the prediction involved the Potter/Voldemort conflict more specifically something to the effect of a Potter (or Gryffindor's heir) ending Voldemort's reign forever. So not knowing whether Voldemort was alive or dead, they sealed that prediction up inside Neville and made him forget that he even had it. I like a few things about this theory. It makes Neville less of an idiot for one, and I think Neville deserves better than that. It furthers the parallel with Peter Pettigrew. It gives Neville a real reason to be in Gryffindor even if he doesn't know it yet. ___________ Gregory Lynn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From JessaDrow at aol.com Fri Apr 11 22:06:32 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 18:06:32 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: more info and spoilers about various things Message-ID: <16a.1d128cb1.2bc89668@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55222 In a message dated 4/11/03 6:00:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, heidit at netbox.com writes: > Harry Potter discovers that he, among others, are part of an ancient "Order > of the Phoenix"...an order > that grants him the privilege of a very special gift...the gift of life! > With > Animagus lessons, Quidditch matches, Cho Chang, mysterious notes, > and Voldemort breathing down Harry's neck, will he survive to his > sixteeenth birthday? > I knew it! I knew he was going to be an animagus! Any takes on what form he choses? I think a stag. "Faith" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From heidit at netbox.com Sat Apr 12 12:14:36 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 08:14:36 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: OOP: Ron ( Reserves?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55223 HughRoe wrote: At no place in canon is there any reference to any form of reserves for the house teams, if reserves had been available, then the confiscation of Harry's Firebolt would not have been that important, or Draco's wounded arm, just get the reserve seekers in for that game. And as this is the first time since Harry was chosen that the Gryffindor team will need new players, it makes sence. Just think, next book will need beatters and chasers. **** Actually, in Book 1, there's a reference to either Katie Bell of Alicia Spinnet having been a reserve the year before. It's possible that there is never a reserve Seeker, but we know from Book 1 that there can be reserves for other players. Heidi Tandy *Ask me about Nimbus - 2003* Http://www.hp2003.org From abigailnus at yahoo.com Sat Apr 12 12:46:36 2003 From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 12:46:36 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Bill is Ever So Dead with DIMINISHED CAPACITIES In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55224 "Come now, Abigail." Derannimer says. "You can't expect me to walk around= wearing a badge that says DIMINISHED CAPACITIES. People will talk." "Elkins walks around with a badge that says SYCOPHANT." Abigail, who is we= aring a pair of oddly-tinted sunglasses, points out. "Yes, but that's The Elkins." Derannimer says. "If she can get away with = walking around and announcing that The End is Near, she can do anything." >From the vicinity of the bar, a disembodied voice interrupts. "I think DIM= INISHED CAPACITIES works quite well as far as it goes, though I must submit = your badges are awful. Have you ever thought of a logo instead of an acrony= m?" "What was that?" Abigail jumps. "Who said that?" Derannimer sighs. "Really, Abigail. These See-No-OOP glasses of yours kee= p breaking down. That's Errol, and he's sitting down at the bar." Abigail adjusts a few knobs on the handle of her sunglasses, and is soon ab= le to perceive a figure who is, indeed, nursing a drink at the bar. Not tha= t this tells her much about the newcomer, as he is swathed in a huge trenchc= oat, and his face is concealed by a fedora, which has been pulled as far dow= n as possible. He downs his drink and speaks once again. "I agree that too many deaths will desensitize people to later deaths. In = fact I'll go further and say that by extension, too many main characters dyi= ng early will numb people to main characters dying in the grand finale. Lup= in and Hagrid are too *close* to Harry for JKR to spring that on us yet. I'= d say we're dealing with DIMINISHED CAPACITIES with a Progression spin to it= . And our Jo frequently does that to build up tension. Look at the victims i= n CoS for example." Derannimer tugs at Abigail's sleeve. "Oh, Abigail, aren't you excited? Ou= r little DIMINISHED CAPACITIES has a variant!" Encouraged, Errol continues. "Applying the progression to the deaths we've= had to personally deal with so far. 1.The potters ? but we never knew them, nor saw them die, but the form the = basis of our introduction to dealing with death. 2.Quirrel ? Enemy. A weak, unsympathetic character, no description of the d= eath 3.Riddle ? Enemy. A more sympathetic character through the book, but eventu= ally the villain ? and its only his memory that dies. Non-horrific descript= ion of `death' 4.Buckbeak ? Non Human. A creature they get attached to (more because of H= agrid), a more deliberate buildup of the execution-that- did-not-happen 5.Frank Bryce ? a sympathetic character we are barely introduce to dies in= stantaneously, Harry doesn't even know him 6.Cedric ? a sympathetic character, a competitor and acquaintance of Harry= , dies instantaneously in Harry's presence" Abigail frowns. "I would remove nos. 1-3, myself. As you yourself say, we= don't witness the Potters' deaths, nor do we know them. Quirrel is a bad g= uy, and Riddle doesn't really die as he wasn't properly a person to begin wi= th. But with Buckbeak, Frank Bryce and Cedric, I'll concede that there's a = progression in the brutality and the emotional effect of the death. So, wha= t are your thoughts about the future?" Errol clears his throat. "Well, if we're projecting, we can assume: 7.Person X ? a sympathetic character, much better known to Harry, some one = he looks up to or considers to definitely be on his side, ut not his inner c= ircle, death might be described 8.Person Y ? some one on the inner circle, though not the immediate inner = circle, who's death will devastate Harry. A prominent secondary character. 9.Person Z ? One of the Trio, or very very close." Abigail nods thoughtfully. "I can see that. I can also see several variat= ions on on that list. And frankly, I'm troubled by the fact that you've got= three items on it." Errol looks, inasmuch as it is possible to convey emotion through a hat, in= quisitive. "It occurs to me that this is the number of remaining books in the series."= Abigail continues. "We've already had a book that ended with the death of= a sympathetic character. What you seem to be suggesting is that every book= yet to come will end with the same device." Abigail hops on a barstool. "= And while you may be right, that DIMINISHED CAPACITIES demands a steady prog= ression in the intensity of Bangs, it also demands that these Bangs have an = element of surprise to them. The most effective Bang is the kind that no on= e expects. Consider this. OOP ends with the death of person X as you assum= ed. GoF already ended with Cedric's death. We've now had two books end wit= h the death of sympathetic character - can there be any doubt that book 6 wi= ll also end in such a death? And when that death occurs, will it have the e= motional intensity of Cedric's death and the OOP death?" Abigail accepts a drink from George with a smile, and continues. "What we = have here is two extremes. On one hand, DIMINISHED CAPACITIES insists that = Bangs exist in a logical progression. Otherwise, we have Bangs that are too= intense too early, and they desensitise us. On the other end of the scale,= we can't have a progression that's too easy to plot, otherwise we can antic= ipate the Bangs, and they no longer surprise us. Stray too far in either di= rection, and you collapse into a Steady State. Somewhere in the middle, tha= t's where DIMINISHED CAPACITIES lives." She takes a sip of her drink. "Any= way, who were you thinking of for the death of person X?" "Well," Errol says. "None of the candidates are as perfectly set up as ou= r dear Bill. What function does Bill play in the narrative? He's just one o= f many "elder brother' figures--talk about redundancy and usurped roles. And= his make up is startling similar to Cedric ? excellent student, straightfor= ward, handsome and well liked ? and has been conspicuously pushed into the f= orefront of activity. He's someone liked and respected by Harry, and the fi= rst of Harry's generation to actually qualify for being on the battlefront. = Besides there are too many Weasleys ? one definitely has to go. And Bill ca= n definitely prove to be a loyal friend beyond anything Harry expects." "I think you've just shot your own argument in the leg." Abigail points ou= t. "You're right, Bill is very similar to Cedric, and his introduction to t= he readers is practically identical. We met Cedric briefly in PoA and were = impressed with what we saw of him - he was handsome, athletic, and gracious.= We got to know him better in GoF, at the end of which he died. So far, Bi= ll has followed that exact same pattern. We may have known about his exista= nce before GoF, but we only met him in that book, and now we suspect that he= will have a larger role to play in OOP. Add to that the fact that Bill and= Cedric are both coded the same way by the text - handsome, responsible, per= sonable young men - and the very notion that Bill is the one to die counters= your insistence that the deaths of sympathetic characters have to have a pr= ogression to them. Besides, there's another reason why I don't think it's a= good idea to kill off a Weasley at this point." "Up until now, all the enemies Harry's faced have been focused on him. Qui= rrel needed him to get the Philosopher's Stone, Tom Riddle may have been usi= ng Ginny as his tool, but he himself says that for most of the year, his tar= get has been Harry. In GoF, procuring Harry for Voldemort's use is the purp= ose of almost everything that happened (I'm ignoring PoA, as Harry's enemies= in that book are not villains but dumb beasts). Killing off a Weasley brot= her moves the focus from Harry to Ron. I don't care how much a member of th= e Weasley family Harry feels himself to be. If Bill, whom he hardly knows, = dies, the people most affected would be Ron and his family, and as we don't = have direct emotional access to Ron, we wouldn't feel the full emotional imp= act of this death. I might think differently if we were talking about a Wea= sley that we know, such as Molly or Arthur, or any of the younger children, = but I can't imagine that Bill or Charlie's death, even if we get to know him= better throughout OOP, will have a severe influence on Harry or on us." "But," Errol insists, "Why bring Bill into the story so much in GoF? He pra= ctically took a year off from Gringotts ? or had an awful lot of traveling t= o do just to support Harry. Molly turning up at the tasks in lieu of Harry's= family is understandable, but why not Arthur along with her? He's around in= England isn't he? Or why not Charlie who's also over from Romania around th= e time of the tasks? Nope, it had to be Bill, untiringly dragged in all the = way from Egypt. Smacks of a conscious agenda to me!" "Bill, Charlie and Arthur can all apparate." Abigail points out. "So I do= n't see that one of them appearing is any more or less significant then any = of the others, at least in terms of the distance travelled. I will concede,= however, that the fact that Bill shows up before the third task raises ques= tions, and in fact it gave me pause the very first time I read it. However,= I think I can offer a reason for this that will, in fact, ensure that Bill = survives OOP. You suggested that Bill has no role, but I contend that he ha= s in fact usurped the role of one of his brothers." "One of his brothers?" Errol repeats. "You mean Percy, don't you?" "That's right." Abigail smiles. "During the first three books, Percy stood= for law and order, even more then Hermione. Upon leaving school in GoF, hi= s function changed. Just as events outside Hogwarts begin to become importa= nt to the Trio, they are conveniently provided with a conduit of information= directly from the Ministry in the shape of Percy. Note how casually he pro= vides Harry with information during the QWC and the Yule Ball. However, tow= ards the end of the book, when Ron writes to Percy with questions at Sirius'= request, Percy responds almost angrily, and refuses to share information be= yond what he tells everyone who questions him. So who is it that next gives= us information about goings-on in the Ministry?" "Bill." Errol answers. "Bill. Harry asks how Percy is, and in turn is told quite a bit about the = state of Mr. Crouch's department. This information is crucial in our unders= tanding of what's happened to Crouch. I suspect that this dynamic will cont= inue. We've speculated that Percy will have to make some decisions about th= e side that he's on, and I've already said that I suspect OOP will be more c= oncerned with the situation in the Ministry then with Voldemort. It's very = likely, in my opinion, that Percy will have a storyline in OOP, in which cas= e we're going to need another character to provide us with information. Tha= t character is Bill." "Oh, please." Derannimer interrupts. "We all know what you're really gett= ing at. Don't listen to her, Errol, you haven't looked at the *other* badge= she's wearing." Errol squints. Pinned to the lapel of Abigail's many-pocketed coat is, ind= eed, another badge. It reads SCRABBLE BOARD. When Abigail presses it, word= s appear: Shy, Curteous, Respectable Arthur Bad Bye-bye to Law Enforcement: BreakOut = Auror - Retired Dad. Abigail presses the badge again, and a stylised drawing of a trimaran appea= rs. "What does that mean?" Errol asks, confused. "It means that I am head of the Auror!Arthur department of the Imperius!Art= hur trimaran, of course." Abigail replies. "Can I interest you in some of = our literature?" Digging into her bottomless pockets, Abigail begins to retrieve dusty scrol= ls, which she piles into Errol's unresisting arms. "There's Elkins's original Imperius!Arthur manifesto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/37121 and the extended version http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/40168 And my original Auror!Arthur extrapolation:" http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/37136 and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/37179 And, of course, Elkins's dedication of the Imperius!Arthur trimaran and the= sundry discussions stemming from it: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/45290 Errol looks down, or rather up, at the pile of scrolls which is now obstruc= ting all of the view that his pulled-down fedora had left him. "Um... do yo= u think you could give me a summary?" He asks tentatively. "Well, you don't really need to get into all the canon for either theory at= this point." Abigail concedes. "What you need to know is that Imperius!Ar= thur contends that, at some point during Voldemort's first reign of terror, = Arthur was placed under an Imperius curse, and Auror!Arthur further contends= that, at the time, Arthur was an auror. It's rather intuitive really, and t= he connection to our discussion is simply that both theories insist that the= younger Weasly children - that's Percy and below - know nothing about any o= f this. However, the older children, Bill and Charlie, would have been 10 o= r thereabouts by the time Voldemort fell, and would have more coherent memor= ies of the time. They were probably cautioned not to reveal anything to the= ir siblings, but this is a time of crisis, and Harry and Ron are not childre= n anymore, and if Bill is going to spend a lot of time with them... Well, yo= u know that I think OOP will be about the Ministry, so isn't it convenient t= hat Harry's conduit of information has been replaced by a character who know= s a lot more about Voldemort's first reign?" "So you think Bill will reveal information pretaining to Imperius!Arthur or= Auror!Arthur." Errol concludes. "Call Captain Veronica!" Abigail cries, jubilant. "Tell her I have new ca= non!" "That's as may be." Errol says, trying to calm her. "But I'm not here to = talk about various trimaran theories." "That's good, because Seventh Son really blows Dead!Bill out of the water."= Abigail comments. Errol sighs. "Why Bill, then? Why not Charlie? They're close in age, so = they should both have this information you talk about. Isn't there a redund= ancy here?" "I'm not exactly certain why Bill was brought in instead of Charlie." Abig= ail replies. "Certainly they got equal airtime in GoF, right until the end = where Bill is conscripted by Dumbledore. Maybe it's because Bill is the eld= est, but really, I suspect that this has more to do with Ron. Bill and Ron = have similar builds, and so does Percy. We know that all the Weasley childr= en look up to Bill, but it's obvious that Percy looks up to him esepecially.= Bill is obviously the model that Percy is trying to follow - prefect, Head= Boy, respectable job outside Hogwarts. Ron is also eager to follow in Bill= 's footsteps - you can hear it in the way he speaks of him in PS and to him = in GoF. I contend that Bill is a model for Percy, which Percy will fail to = follow in OOP, and that they both present differnet approaches to emulate or= refute for Ron." "Still," Errol insists. "Don't you agree that Bill's just about ripe for r= omance and settling down? What say we hear more about his dreams and aspirat= ions in OotP? After all, it's a fact well established that a single young ma= n with a good job must be in search of a wife... And we all know what that = means." Marina, who has been listening to the discussion, pipes in. "You know, Erro= l, I think you're onto something here. In the later chapters of GoF, I seem = to recall a definite suggestion of Fleur Delacour finding Bill rather... uhm= ... fanciable. And then we get a hint that Fleur might be returning to Engla= nd the following year. Sounds to me like there is romance blooming in Bill's= future, which, for a supporting character, is a sure-fire way to lower life= expectancy." Abigail's cheeks redden. "What is it, Abigail?" Errol asks. "What? Oh, it's nothing." Abigail says hurriedly. "I agree that if Bill = find luurrve in OOP, his chances of survival decrease, but whether or not he= will is pure speculation." "That's not it." Derannimer says gleefully. She reaches into one of Abiga= il's pockets, and pulls out another dusty tome. "Give that back!" Abigail cries. "It was just a joke! I wrote in on OT-C= hatter, for heaven's sake!" Errol and Marina peer at the scroll. Through the dust, they can just make = out, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/13101 "Fanfics with slash..." Errol reads from the subject line. "What is this?= " Abigail sighs. "Well, if you must know, I used the third task Fleur Delaco= ur encounter that you two seem to find so romantic to suggest that Bill is t= he first canonically gay character in the series." This is met with some silence. Abigail From finwitch at yahoo.com Sat Apr 12 12:54:20 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 12:54:20 -0000 Subject: Patronus shape in FB In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55225 Phyllis: > Well, all we really know from canon is that when Harry asks "What > does a Patronus look like?", Lupin responds "Each one is unique to > the wizard who conjures it." (PoA, Ch. 12). > .... > I don't think it's too much of a stretch to think that if one's > animagus reflects one's personality, one's patronus would also > reflect one's personality. But while one's animagus is always an > animal, it's not clear from canon whether one's patronus has to be an > animal. > > I think when Dumbledore referred to Harry's patronus as "most > unusual", he didn't mean that it was unusual that it was an animal, > but rather that it was unusual because it was a stag. I think that Harry's Patronus doesn't reflect *Harry's* personality, but that of his father who we know to have been Stag-animagus. After all, Dumbledore comments later that he had "found his father within himself". What comes to Harry's patronus - it's unusual for a 3rd-year to manage a spell "well beyond OWL" as we're told by Lupin. Not sure whereter *stag* makes it any more unusual. Then again, if Harry comes to think of Sirius as his parent, his patronus might be a big dog instead... Harry's inherited nearly all his physical looks from his father, but we don't know much of Harry's maternal heritance. So far, nearly all has been of James - about time we hear about Lily... She might not have been animagus, but if she were, what form would she take? -- Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Sat Apr 12 13:07:26 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 13:07:26 -0000 Subject: OOP-Spoiler: Poisoned Honey? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55226 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Patricia Bullington-McGuire wrote: > > But Harry told Dumbledore that Lucius Malfoy was present at the circle of > Death Eaters in GoF. What kind of idiot would DD have to be to then go > and hire Malfoy's wife as a professor and give her free run of the school? > I think he'd hire Fleur first, and Fleur is profoundly unqualified for the > job. .... I don't think she's all *that* unqualified. She does not deal well with a female dragon, but her Veela-charms might work on a male one. She was caught by grindylows, yes (maybe *those* were females, too?). In the maze, she was stunned by Moody!Crouch - otherwise she might have had a chance. And what comes to poisoned honey... I think that describes what a Veela... I think the new DADA teacher could be Fleur. Only female DE I've noticed, was Mrs Lestrange... A Veela would have no trouble in making the male DEs fight each other over her, I guess - but "our" side needs to be educated not to fall on that, too! -- Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Sat Apr 12 13:19:58 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 13:19:58 -0000 Subject: OOP: Spoiler-Harry's Dream In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55227 "lorien_eve": > Ok, so we know that Harry is having a dream about a door at the end > of a corridor. And supposedly, that dream is worse than all the other > nightmares combined. I don't have the acutal quote, but it's > something similar to that. So, what could be *worse* than Voldemort? > Or VOldemort coming back to power (like the dreams he had in GOF)? > The only thing my feeble mind can come up with is that it has > something to do with him seeing his parents being killed. Not a Time- > Tuner thing, but just something that he can watch (like Riddle's > diary or the Pensieve). What do you guys think these dreams are about? > Worse - why, that Harry *himself* is the ultimate evil! So far, Harry's scar-dreams have *always* been from a pov of someone who 1) was there and 2) wasn't Voldemort nor Wormtail. Now that Harry's blood runs in Voldermort's veins (due to the potion at the graveyard) - maybe he'll see it trough Voldemort's eyes? Or maybe trough Pettigrew's? Worst? That Harry casts the Killing curse on his Mom? his Dad? himself? Odd, yes - but dreams can be... -- Finwitch From flamingstarchows at att.net Sat Apr 12 13:45:10 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (FlamingStar Chows) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 08:45:10 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: OOP: Ron ( Reserves?) References: <20030412122425.DWZR26354.mtiwgwc11.worldnet.att.net@mtiwgwc11.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <009601c300f9$bd592aa0$c180560c@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 55228 ----- Original Message ----- HughRoe wrote: At no place in canon is there any reference to any form of reserves for the house teams, if reserves had been available, then the confiscation of Harry's Firebolt would not have been that important, or Draco's wounded arm, just get the reserve seekers in for that game. And as this is the first time since Harry was chosen that the Gryffindor team will need new players, it makes sence. Just think, next book will need beatters and chasers. **** Heidi Tandy wrote: Actually, in Book 1, there's a reference to either Katie Bell of Alicia Spinnet having been a reserve the year before. It's possible that there is never a reserve Seeker, but we know from Book 1 that there can be reserves for other players. ----Me---- Also in the match where Snape was going to referee---Ron and Hermione told Harry to pretend to break his leg, or really break, it to get out of the match. Harry told them that there is no reserve seeker - to me this implies that their are reserves for other positions. ~Cathy~ From pikachan798 at hotmail.com Sat Apr 12 13:33:46 2003 From: pikachan798 at hotmail.com (Blaise) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 13:33:46 -0000 Subject: OOP: Spoiler-Harry's Dream In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55229 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lorien_eve" wrote: > Ok, so we know that Harry is having a dream about a door at the end > of a corridor. And supposedly, that dream is worse than all the other > nightmares combined. I don't have the acutal quote, but it's > something similar to that. So, what could be *worse* than Voldemort? > Or VOldemort coming back to power (like the dreams he had in GOF)? > The only thing my feeble mind can come up with is that it has > something to do with him seeing his parents being killed. Not a Time- > Tuner thing, but just something that he can watch (like Riddle's > diary or the Pensieve). What do you guys think these dreams are about? > I'm thinking it might be what's /behind/ that door, not the door itself. Not knowing things can be really scary. Little kids often have nightmares about what's behind a door, or under the bed...they can go check and see there's nothing, but Harry wouldn't be able to do that and he can just /feel/ there's something behind that door, but he doesn't know what exactly it is. This is just guessing, though, and the only thing I could come up with! ~maantje From pepsiboy71 at mac.com Sat Apr 12 15:18:30 2003 From: pepsiboy71 at mac.com (Pepsiboy) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 11:18:30 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP-Spoiler: Poisoned Honey? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55230 > I'm ever so sorry, I meant to include this into my previous post, but > forgot: > > Pepsiboy, your examples are from before Lucius made the super-smart > move of blackmailing the Governors. At the end of CoS he was kicked > out of the committee. And also - none of them but the "Draco as > Keeper" (he's the Seeker, btw) example deal with the direct > management of Hogwarts, like hiring teachers or changing the > curriculum. The Seeker!Draco question has two possible answers, IMO: > either Draco really did try out for the team (and he seems to be a > decent player, doesn't he?), or he did buy his way onto the team. The > latter, then, would rather be an indicator of Snape's desire to be on > good terms with the Malfoys than of Lucius's particular influence on > the particulars of Hogwarts's running. > > However, Lucius does have an influence on Fudge, doesn't he? I think > I'll reread JOdel's post on that - how convenient that it was posted > today! > > Maria, at 1:30 am. *YAWN* > > Well, I'm still holding out, since it would put an interesting spin on things especially class-wise. The book do contain many powerful women, though we've only seen the 'light-side'...the 'dark-side' would be interesting to see....and apologies if this sound too 'Star-Wars-ish'. From patricia at obscure.org Sat Apr 12 15:24:48 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 11:24:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP-Spoiler: Poisoned Honey? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55231 On Sat, 12 Apr 2003, finwitch wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Patricia Bullington-McGuire > wrote: > > > But Harry told Dumbledore that Lucius Malfoy was present at the > > circle of > > Death Eaters in GoF. What kind of idiot would DD have to be to > > then go > > and hire Malfoy's wife as a professor and give her free run of the > > school? > > I think he'd hire Fleur first, and Fleur is profoundly unqualified > > for the > > job. > > .... > > I don't think she's all *that* unqualified. She does not deal well > with a female dragon, but her Veela-charms might work on a male one. > She was caught by grindylows, yes (maybe *those* were females, too?). > In the maze, she was stunned by Moody!Crouch - otherwise she might > have had a chance. Fleur's biggest problem is that she is very young and unexperienced. I don't hold Moody!Crouch's treachery against her, but her inability to handle mere grindylows indicates a fairly weak understanding of dark creatures. Grindylows just aren't that menacing. If she can't handle them, how is she going to handle a Dementor or a Lethifold? Since she seems to lack some of the most basic DADA knowledge, I doubt she's advanced enough to summon a Patronus. > And what comes to poisoned honey... I think that describes what a > Veela... I think the new DADA teacher could be Fleur. Only female DE > I've noticed, was Mrs Lestrange... A Veela would have no trouble in > making the male DEs fight each other over her, I guess - but "our" > side needs to be educated not to fall on that, too! Some Veela (or part-Veela) could make good DADA professors. I just don't think Fleur is one of them. Being Veela alone is not enough of a qualification. The professor also needs to know the material. If Veela charms are the only strength she has to fall back on, I'm afraid she's not going to last long. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From melclaros at yahoo.com Sat Apr 12 16:37:34 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 16:37:34 -0000 Subject: The Longbottoms revisited In-Reply-To: <005501c300bd$14f31600$42ad1e42@ne2.client2.attbi.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55232 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Gregory Lynn" wrote: > My half formed theory begins with the notion that Neville has been memory charmed which someone mentioned has been mentioned before. > > They go to Frank Longbottom, who has a young son. They make Neville the Secret Keeper and immediately put a memory charm on him to make him not only forget the secret but the very fact that he's keeping one. They know that memory charms can be broken however so if/when they need to get at the secret they can break it out of Neville's head. > > I like a few things about this theory. It makes Neville less of an idiot for one, and I think Neville deserves better than that. It furthers the parallel with Peter Pettigrew. It gives Neville a real reason to be in Gryffindor even if he doesn't know it yet. Now me: I like a lot of things about this theory too. It's logical for a start--which of course, in the WW makes it unlikely to be true. However, I do have a HUGE problem with it. Speaking as a parent--Any parent who would agree to put their child-- BABY in that much outright danger is either an idiot or downright EVIL. That action on the part of "the good guys" in my humble opinion would in one fell swoop out-do any of the wickedness we have seen to date performed by the Death Eaters. The very idea leaves a foul taste in my mouth. Would you do that to your son in the hope that the DE's wouldn't draw the line at your baby? Melpomene From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sat Apr 12 17:53:45 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 18:53:45 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Percy References: <1050089595.13485.59162.m9@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000801c3011c$76de5460$834d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 55233 Stickbook wrote: >For the immediate future (Book 5), I can see Percy having a personal >crisis. After all, someone he really respected and admired turned >out to be not so squeaky-clean, and was then murdered. What a >horrendous let-down, especially for your first job out of school! I I agree that it's been a rude awakening. I've always seen our Perce as being idealistic and a bit priggish and suddenly he's had a rude awakening into the fact that politics can be a dirty world. >can imagine that now Percy is also unemployed, which is always >stressful. I feel sorry for the guy, after a lifetime of drive and >aspirations for the Ministry, suddenly finds himself without >direction. Percy might be confused about his family and the Ministry >being on opposite sides of a political divide, but I don't think that >he'd take up with a bureaucracy that has shown itself to be quite >ineffective during an emergency. I'm not sure why it would leave him unemployed. One of the things about the MoM is that even if you take an individual out, the department and its functions still have to carry on. It could be that Percy would get promotion as a result of his boss's death - something which could leave him having not only to have the ability to play a more important role in WW politics (and to temper whatever strength of character he's developed) but also one step closer to his ambition of the Minister's post. Obviously the DE faction within the MoM would try to block him getting advancement (his family connection would count against him) but it would also be an interesting test of the strengths of the various factions in the MoM. I've speculated a little further than just the Percy point, because if my thoughts above are true, then it suggests that the MoM is a factionalised organisation where WW politics are played out within the bureaucracy. How factionalised I wonder? How strong was the DE faction in Voldemort's time?How strong are they now? Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From siriuskase at earthlink.net Sat Apr 12 18:15:53 2003 From: siriuskase at earthlink.net (siriuskase) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 18:15:53 -0000 Subject: Views on the most dangerous character in HP, Percy In-Reply-To: <20030411165903.82031.qmail@web20422.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55234 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Eileen wrote: > --- abc10011 wrote: > > I beleive that this issue for Percy will be the > > choice between easy > > and right, easy being following the rules and right > > being loyal to > > family because deep down he knows that rules aren't > > always right. > > Hey! This brings up a very interesting thought. > > Elkins suggested in her Crouch novenna that to some > exten JKR cheats with the Crouch sub-plot. She doesn't > give the tough and Livian and morally upright and > rules-bound Crouch a fair chance, because it turns out > in the end that he is none of the above, except tough. > :-) > > Will Percy get the chance to stand in for this point > of view? Or will he be dragged down by hypocricy? > Somehow, I can actually see Percy being allowed to > represent the other side without being a hypocrite. > And then we can have a clash of ideologies without the > waters being muddied by hypocricy. > > Not that there's anything wrong with hypocricy, of > course. > > Eileen > I agree that Percy is going to be a much more important character in a future book. Rowling has already made us much more familiar with him than necessary for what has already happened, so something big is going to happen with him that relies on us knowing so much about his personality, how he is loyal to family, law abiding, and ambitious for his career with the ministry. We don't know much about how he thinks when his loyalties conflict, Ron's comment is the only hint. But, he won't darkside on us, just make wrong choices. I belive that most of the characters that we know very well to be good will not intentionally cooperate with the forcers of evil. Remember the remark that good people are so easy to use? We will see a lot of good people being used and this will include Percy. However, I don't think Percy is the most dangerous character, that would be Ron since he is so close to Harry and Hermione. He won't darkside, of course, he will think that Harry is evil and he will be so repulsed that he will overeact and work with Percy and the ministry against whatever Harry, Dumbledore, etc, are trying to do. In a way, he will be worse than evil in that the real baddies can just lie low and watch the good guys conflict with each other. If any of the characters that we like should turn truly evil, it would be Fred, the evil twin. And I do think a "good guy" will make the decision at some point to intentionally side with evil Sirius Kase From sam2sar at charter.net Sat Apr 12 18:25:51 2003 From: sam2sar at charter.net (sam2sar) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 18:25:51 -0000 Subject: OOP-Spoiler: Poisoned Honey? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55235 Does any think that maybe Quirrel could have a sister/aunt/daughter/mother who would have a reason to hate Harry? Sorry for the short post. Sam I Am From siriuskase at earthlink.net Sat Apr 12 18:36:30 2003 From: siriuskase at earthlink.net (siriuskase) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 18:36:30 -0000 Subject: OOP: Animagus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55236 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "beeanimagus" wrote: > *Delurks* > > We know the Dark Arts teacher will have a personality like poisoned > honey and I think it's interesting seeing what everyone thinks her > day-to-day personality will be like - but what if she's another > animagus, even a registered one? "personality like poisoned honey" makes me think that she is a women scorned, by who, I'm not sure, but maybe this is where an old flame of James or Dumbldore makes an appearance. > > If she has a personality like poisoned honey, maybe she's a bee > animagus, and if Dumbledore is also a bee animagus, then maybe we'll > finally see romance for the Big D! Another clue that this is an old friend of the "Big D". Has he made another mistake in hiring for the DADA post? > > Then again, figs are usually sweet too, and taste a little like > honey, so I think the "poisoned honey" may be a clue that it's > Arabella Figg as the new teacher. > > > ~--Marigold--~ sirius kase From JessaDrow at aol.com Sat Apr 12 18:03:02 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 14:03:02 EDT Subject: Re Percy Message-ID: <194.17830011.2bc9aed6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55237 In a message dated 4/12/03 1:54:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, manawydan at ntlworld.com writes: > I'm not sure why it would leave him unemployed. One of the things about the > MoM is that even if you take an individual out, the department and its > functions still have to carry on. It could be that Percy would get > promotion > as a result of his boss's death - something which could leave him having > not > only to have the ability to play a more important role in WW politics (and > to temper whatever strength of character he's developed) but also one step > closer to his ambition of the Minister's post. > > Me: I totally agree, I can see Percy moving up, in fact I'm hoping that Arthur Weasley moves up as well. Both could do worlds of good if given the chance. manawydan writes: Obviously the DE faction within the MoM would try to block him getting advancement (his family connection would count against him) but it would also be an interesting test of the strengths of the various factions in the MoM. Me: I had always thought that the Weasleys were well thought of in the WW. They are an old pure-bred family. From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Sat Apr 12 18:47:47 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 11:47:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OOP: Ron ( Reserves?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030412184747.89656.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55238 --- hughroe1957 wrote: > At no place in canon is there any reference to any form of > reserves for the house teams, if reserves had been available, then > the confiscation of Harry's Firebolt would not have been that > important, or Draco's wounded arm, just get the reserve seekers in > for that game. And as this is the first time since Harry was chosen > that the Gryffindor team will need new players, it makes sence. Just > think, next book will need beatters and chasers. Actually, yes, there is. At the first Quidditch match of PS/SS, Lee Jordan's commentary includes, "a neat pass to Alicia Spinnet, a good find of Oliver Wood's, last year only a reserve". Clearly there ARE reserves. However, Harry also says later, "There isn't a reserve Seeker." (Ch.13 PS/SS) So there may not necessarily be reserves for all positions, but there are for SOME. Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com From metslvr19 at yahoo.com Sat Apr 12 19:16:52 2003 From: metslvr19 at yahoo.com (Laura) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 19:16:52 -0000 Subject: OOP-Spoiler: Poisoned Honey? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55239 "sam2sar" wrote: > > > Does any think that maybe Quirrel could have a sister/aunt/daughter/mother who would have a reason to hate Harry? > > > I say: It's more than likely, I think. It's also more than likely that there are a dozen or so such characters who hate Harry for that kind of reason. We already know there are quite a few who hate him for his defeat of "You-Know-Who." But if I may insert my own humble opnion, that kind of plot twist is far too cliche and overused for JKR. I highly doubt she would include something so easy to forsee. It's just *too* simple. -Laura (who bought the COS movie yesterday afternoon and has already watched it no less than 3 times =)) From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Sat Apr 12 20:04:54 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 20:04:54 -0000 Subject: The Motivations of Fudge and Dumbledore (WAS:Fudge: DE or not?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55240 Phyllis wrote: I think Dumbledore is keeping secrets from Fudge because he knows what the implications would be if certain information is revealed ? what if Fudge did know about Harry being a parselmouth, and did know about the pains in Harry's scar? He would think Harry isn't to be trusted, just as he states at the end of GoF. I reply: I think I see where you're going with it, but I'm not so sure about this: after all, at the end of PoA, we hear Fudge say that "Ah, well, Snape... Harry Potter, you know... we've all got a bit of a blind spot where he's concerned." (PoA, US paperback, Ch.21, 387) So, at least we know that previously, Fudge was willing to give Harry the benefit of the doubt, and that means that both Dumbledore and Harry had some measure of good-will with Fudge that post-GoF they do not seem to have any longer. I guess I'm wondering how that erosion of trust came to be. My point with this post was to indicate that Dumbledore, by keeping Harry's fits, scar pains and visions, along with the Parselmouth-bit a secret, not from the WW, but from Fudge, might have squandered some of this good-will. (I leave out the interview with Crouch Jr. on Veritaserum, which I believe was only a tactical error on Albus' part, not all-out secrecy.) And working from my personal perspective here, what's better: to hear that you've been deceived by your colleague/friend from that person directly, or to read about it in the media? Surely, feelings of betrayal and mistrust will be enhanced by revelations and affirmations courtesy of an obnoxious third party. I mean, I agree with most of what you wrote, because from the Harry/Dumbledore/readership axis-of-thought you are entirely in the majority here, and devil's advocacy aside, I concur. ;-) I think that most of us look at the situation this way. But, trying to perhaps see things from Fudge's perspective is something that I'm sure JKR is doing, so that the story makes that much more sense, right? I mean, the author wouldn't be writing a story where only the main characters' percpective is valid ? otherwise the story would be a sham. That JKR writes so realistically is what I find so intriguing about discussions like this ? because rather than suggest that Fudge is just wrong, I believe she suggests that he actually does have a perspective, and perhaps a mildly selfish but also a valid viewpoint on this, and when we look at events as they've unfolded, Dumbledore is partially responsible for shaping Fudge's present perspective, IMO. And Fudge's present perspective is going to make things easier for Voldemort and harder for our heroes. I agree with you one-hundred percent on the CoS debacle though ? why doesn't Fudge know earlier? I guess that this is one of those suspension of disbelief points in the plotline. ;-) Phyllis wrote: I agree that Fudge believes he has to act according to public opinion (which, I note, is the reason why the public elects high-level government officials in the first place ;), but I think it's important to assess the motivation behind his actions. What motivates him, IMO, is power, which is what I think Dumbledore is referencing when he states that Fudge is blinded by the love of the office he holds. So in order to stay in power, he has to please the public, and he believes it will displease the public to send envoys to the giants and to take Azkaban out of the control of the dementors. I don't see Fudge as acting according to public opinion in order to please the public; I see him pleasing the public in order to stay in office. I reply: I acknowledge your distinction, and agree, but partially... because (I know that this might be going out on a spinning limb here) what if Fudge feels like he's the one best suited to serve the public? Indeed, taking Dumbledore out of the equation, most of the people on our list seem to want Arthur to assume the Minister's office, and I see that as most unlikely for now. So, are there more qualified people out there? Probably, but we don't know about them. At any rate, if Fudge believes that he's the best man for the job, then he'd also believe that it was best for him to stay in power. And in addition to this situation, we've seen several others with Fudge believing that he must act for the public ? Hagrid's jailing in CoS and Sirius's capture in PoA. But, examples aside, I think that this is a common criticism of almost every public official known to man: most will see both their own standing with the public, as well as the public's desires, as important and critical issues, so I think it's unfair to judge Cornelius totally on that. Partially, yes, this is a valid criticism, but I think that JKR's doing more than create another stereotypical politician in Fudge - I think she's showing us that even the good guys make mistakes that have consequences. For instance, when we take Dumbledore's speech to the students at the end of GoF into account ("Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust." (GoF, US paperback, Ch.37, 723)) we see that Dumbledore, at least as far as Fudge is concerned, doesn't seem to be practicing what he preaches... of course, since this comes after the Parting of the Ways, this speech could, in part, be read as a partial admission on Dumbledore's behalf that he made a mistake. Well, it *could* be. ;-) At any rate, Fudge should have known these bits about Harry's ability to speak Parseltongue, and about the fits and visions. As the Minister of Magic, almost no one (save perhaps Dumbledore himself) would be in a better position to divert resources into the situation, not to mention that honesty would have preserved the bond of trust. For instance, so what: Harry's a Parselmouth. Get a few Aurors in an have a look, have an interview. Harry's innocent, right, so what harm would that have brought? My point is that if they had been working together all along, instead of Albus hiding certain things from Fudge (with good reasons or not,) then things would be better now for the good-guys, and worse-off for Voldemort. -Tom From metslvr19 at yahoo.com Sat Apr 12 20:23:03 2003 From: metslvr19 at yahoo.com (Laura) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 20:23:03 -0000 Subject: OOP: Ron ( Reserves?) In-Reply-To: <009601c300f9$bd592aa0$c180560c@pavilion> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55241 HughRoe wrote: > > > At no place in canon is there any reference to any form of reserves for the house teams > > > Heidi Tandy wrote: > > > Actually, in Book 1, there's a reference to either Katie Bell or Alicia Spinnet having been a reserve the year before. > > > Cathy wrote: > > > Also in the match where Snape was going to referee---Ron and Hermione told Harry to pretend to break his leg, or really break, it to get out of the match. Harry told them that there is no reserve seeker - to me this implies that their are reserves for other positions. > > > Now me: There is no reference to *current* reserves. I prseume that a Chaser graduated the year before Harry first came to Hogwarts and Alicia or Katie (can't remember which) came to fill the position. However, there is no mention of current reserves. Wouldn't reserves presumably practice with the team? There is no mention of them being at practices. My theory is that there are reserves whenever reserves present themselves. Like everything else in the WW, it doesn't really follow a pattern or logic. Perhaps Alicia/Katie was an excellent player and Wood decided to keep her around, just in case. But perhaps now there are just enough players to make a team, and no one else is really good enough to be worth the troube of keeping them as a reserve. Besides, they aren't really necessary, are they? There's no mention of sibstitution. And in the Muggle World, teams keep extra players in case of injuries. But what magical injuries can't be cured overnight, if not in 2 seconds? -Laura From rona_patterson at yahoo.com Sat Apr 12 19:16:24 2003 From: rona_patterson at yahoo.com (Rona Patterson) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 12:16:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP-Spoiler: Poisoned Honey? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030412191624.84198.qmail@web9204.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55242 sam2sar wrote: Does any think that maybe Quirrel could have a sister/aunt/daughter/mother who would have a reason to hate Harry? Rona replies with: Huh...Well never underestimate Mrs. Rowling. Secondly, if we assume that if anyone is like poisoned is would be sweet Lily's sister Petunia.....call me crazy. I would think since Lily was sweet as honey the opposite of that would be the rotten apple of the family. Maybe that is why DD feels so at ease with Harry being at the Dursleys. Rona Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jodel at aol.com Sat Apr 12 20:40:49 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 16:40:49 EDT Subject: Albus & Hagrid (was; Fleur and Wands (was: 50 Questions..) Message-ID: <182.195e1f90.2bc9d3d1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55243 Jaimee makes an excellent point; >>Dumbledore says in CoS that the Heads of the House are responsible for the punishments of their students...So, who was most likely the Head of Hagrid's house at this time?<< I think that you are onto something. What is more I think there is even more going on in the background here. If Dumbledore was the Head of Gryffindor, he not only had good reason to already know Hagrid (since you can just tell that Hagrid was the sort of fecklessly fearless child who was ALWAYS in some sort of trouble) and be absolutely confident that he had not been responsible for Myrtle's death, Dumbledore had *already* taken considerable responsibility for Hagrid's welfare. Hagrid's father had died just the previous year, leaving the boy effectively an orphan. Who had arranged for the boy's welfare over the previous summer? We never hear Hagrid mention any relatives apart from his dead father and his absent mother. But he sure mentions Dumbledore. His gratitude is based on more than Dumbledore's simply having found him a job when he was expelled. And what *about* that job? Gamekeeper. Right there at Hogwarts. Where he could roam the Forbidden forest all he wanted and visit his pets, talk to the centaurs, and find monsters to make friends with. A job that he would be *good* at. With Ogg (who Molly Weasley recalls at length with some fondness) to look after him and train him. I am absolutely convinced that Dumbledore had either already discussed Hagrid's future with Ogg, or had already planned to. And I think Jaimee is right about the wand substitution. An umbrella is the sort of thing one might expect a gamekeeper in Scotland to need to keep available. That it is pink sound like pure Albus. I rather think that the wand that was actually snapped in its place was poor Myrtle's. A Muggle-born, her family had no use for it. It had probably been left with the school. -JOdel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Sat Apr 12 20:42:53 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 20:42:53 -0000 Subject: OOP: more info and spoilers about various things-NOT? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55244 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Heidi Tandy" wrote: > Not sure. I saw it myself in preview magazine, which my husband > gets weekly from the local comic book shop but we don't know where > they got it from. > > The publication has longstanding relationships with WB, among > other companies, because of their coverage of comic and other > media fandom properties, and they've had hp info for years. Preview Magazine? That's rather funny, as it's actually a summary (word for word) of a fanfic (http://hpfanfiction.net/books/book5/ ) that quite a few folks have said borrows a lot of ideas--but not prose--I used first in my own fifth-year fic (http://www.schnoogle.com/authors/barb/PS01.html ). If Preview Magazine was fooled by this fic summary, they should hang their collective heads in shame! You and your husband, OTOH, were trusting to what has traditionally been a reliable source of information. The Scholastic catalogue info I would still trust; I think all other sources (other than an on-camera interview with JKR herself) should be, at this point, considered highly suspect, especially if there is information (such as the Animagus thing) that directly contradicts previous statements from Rowling herself. -As-Paranoid-As-Moody!Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From starropal at hotmail.com Sat Apr 12 20:49:21 2003 From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 15:49:21 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OoP Summary/Spoiler at TLC? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55245 >Discussion on book 5 summary ahead! > >S >P >O >I >L >E >R >S >P >A >C >E >F >O >R >O >O >P >I >C >A >N > >T >W >A >I >T Vinnia wrote: >What does everyone think about this teacher? I still maintain that Miranda Goshawk is going to be the new DADA teacher. Its the whole "least likely suspect" rule that keeps nagging at the back of my brain, and for some reason she sticks out at me. Mind you if it was a "theory" it'd be cork floating in the Bay, but I think it deserves points for originality if nothing else ^_^ See my original post: # 51179 Also, I think the new DADA will be set up as a red herring. As far as poisoned honey goes, this is something I found: "A pretty whore is poisoned honey." - Diogenes Star Opal "Common knowledge is not always true knowledge." _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu Sat Apr 12 21:03:25 2003 From: rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu (susanbones2003) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 21:03:25 -0000 Subject: The Motivations of Fudge and Dumbledore (WAS:Fudge: DE or not?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55246 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall" wrote: >> My point with this post was to indicate that Dumbledore, by keeping Harry's fits, scar pains and visions, along with the Parselmouth-bit a secret, not from the WW, but from Fudge, might have squandered some of this good-will. (SNIP) > And working from my personal perspective here, what's better: to hear that you've been deceived by your colleague/friend from that person directly, or to read about it in the media? Surely, feelings of betrayal and mistrust will be enhanced by revelations and > affirmations courtesy of an obnoxious third party. >(SNIP)> > At any rate, Fudge should have known these bits about Harry's ability > to speak Parseltongue, and about the fits and visions. As the > Minister of Magic, almost no one (save perhaps Dumbledore himself) > would be in a better position to divert resources into the situation, > not to mention that honesty would have preserved the bond of trust. For instance, so what: Harry's a Parselmouth. Get a few Aurors in an have a look, have an interview. Harry's innocent, right, so what harm would that have brought? My point is that if they had been working together all along, instead of Albus hiding certain things from Fudge (with good reasons or not,) then things would be better now for the good-guys, and worse-off for Voldemort. > > -Tom Tom brought up many good points about Dumbledore and Fudge's relationship but in the end it all begged the question: Does Dumbledore even trust Fudge? Knowing (as Molly stated during the "Parting of the Ways" chapter) that Arthur was always kept down at the Ministry because Fudge thought he lacked "proper wizarding pride" as well as Fudge's relationship to Lucius Malfoy (Malfoy's very generous gift to St. Mungo's),it might have been, very probably would have been dangerous to let Fudge in on all Harry's secrets. Wizarding prejudices seem to be pretty deep and unforgiving. Who's to say Fudge wouldn't have wanted to do much more than have a few aurors examine Harry? Remember too, Rita Skeeter isn't revealing all these secrets with anyone's permission. Dumbledore very probably would never have let these things be known under any circumstances had he any choice in the matter. Dumbledore seems to know full well the limitations of his colleagues and when possible, works to reconcile them all for the greater good. It's just that he isn't all powerful or omniscient. What Dumbledore doesn't know is why Fudge reacted to this situation with his head in the sand, it seems. There must be something about Fudge, some unknown terribly bad thing, that made him react to Crouch Jr. in such a final permanent way. He must have some connection to the DE's even if it's not direct. I do not believe he had the Dementor administer the Kiss just because he lost trust in Dumbledore. If you no longer trust someone, you have a row if you care that much. You don't remove the soul of an important witness. JenD From groml at cards.lanck.net Sat Apr 12 21:16:36 2003 From: groml at cards.lanck.net (Maria Gromova) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 01:16:36 +0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: Ron Message-ID: <000c01c30139$08dd7280$f042983e@rcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 55247 .Danielle wrote: Maybe some >Slytherins will send their kids to Durmstrang, gee >maybe Draco will finally get to go there. I'm afraid it's too much to hope for. I think HRH are stuck with this *snake*, unfortunately, for the rest of their school years, and maybe longer. Maria, who definitely *doesn't* like Draco Malfoy. From jodel at aol.com Sat Apr 12 21:34:22 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 17:34:22 EDT Subject: Patronus shape in FB Message-ID: <84.e80d182.2bc9e05e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55248 If I may add my own 2 Knuts to this debate. First, Dumbledore only referes to Harry's patronus as seeming "unusual" after he already knows the whole. We do not know *for certain* that he considerd the shape unusual when Harry first conjured it in the Ravenclaw match. And if he did it may have been because he had no context in which to place it. When, he might have wondered, did Harry Potter develop an association of Happiness with a *stag*? Is there a stage in the woods near the Dursley House? Remus Lupin would very likely have told the Headmaster that he was coaching the boy on the Patronus Charm, since it is such advanced magic. But it wasn't until Sirius Black was captured that Dumbledor learned about the three Animagi and put it all together. -JOdel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Ali at zymurgy.org Sat Apr 12 21:38:51 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 21:38:51 -0000 Subject: OOP: Spoiler-Harry's Dream In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55249 - "lorien_eve" wrote: >>> Ok, so we know that Harry is having a dream about a door at the end of a corridor. And supposedly, that dream is worse than all the other nightmares combined. I don't have the acutal quote, but it's something similar to that.<<< L.O.O.N at your service: "of a single door in a silent corridor. And this door is somehow more terrifying than every other nightmare combined." >>>So, what could be *worse* than Voldemort? <<< Well, Harry has already found the fear of Dementors worse than the fear of Voldemort, although that was prior to the Graveyard Scene, so I suppose he might have changed his mind. The beauty of this phrase is that it could be all number of things, but I have a couple that are currently my favourites: Harry knows that he is going to find something terrible behind that door: 1. It could be a dead friend: he's heard a duel, perhaps even heard an Unforgiveable Spell or two, then silence. Harry's friends are very important to him, and the knowledge that he is going to find that they have been very badly hurt - or worse, would be awful. 2. It could be that he will be found guilty of some trumped up charge in a kangeroo court, and that door means going to face his own execution - beheading if you want to believe the Stoned Harry theory (well I think it was Stoned Harry, says she, nervously). I do feel that this door somehow marks a point of no-return. He must walk over the threshold and it feels like it is part of his hero's path. I've even wondered whether that door might somehow represent the loss of his magic powers... Ali (apologising for theorising, but revision boredom has got the better of me!) From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Sat Apr 12 21:38:17 2003 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (Hans) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 21:38:17 -0000 Subject: nine and three quarters Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55250 Has anyone thought of the significance of the number nine and three quarters? I have searched through all the ancillary books and the archive of this group, but can't find any explanation of the meaning of that number. It's not just a number Dr Rowling has chosen randomly. Harry's parents were killed when he was exactly 1 and a quarter years old (July 31 1980 to Oct 31 1981 (Halloween)). Hagrid turned up with the invitation letter on Harry's 11th birthday. That makes Harry's "Muggle" period exactly 9 and 3 quarters years. It's a sort of gateway number - a gateway to the magical world. But why 9 and 3 quarters? It's 117 months. That's 9 times 13. It's also 39 (=3x13) divided by 4 years. Any ideas? "Hans" From tammy at mauswerks.net Sat Apr 12 21:20:49 2003 From: tammy at mauswerks.net (Tammy Rizzo) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 17:20:49 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: Ron ( Reserves?) In-Reply-To: References: <009601c300f9$bd592aa0$c180560c@pavilion> Message-ID: <3E984AF1.10650.18DBFF4@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 55251 On 12 Apr 2003 at 20:23, Laura wrote about Quidditch reserve players: > There's no mention > of substitution. And in the Muggle World, teams keep extra players in > case of injuries. But what magical injuries can't be cured overnight, > if not in 2 seconds? Well, I'm not clear on whether or not you're talking about just Hogwarts, but there is definitely substitutions in World Cup matches. Remember the match that went for three months? It was stated that they kept rotating substitute players so the players on the field could get some rest. Also, I believe Oliver Wood got a spot on a local team as a reserve player. However, with the very rare mentions of reserves at Hogwarts itself, and the fact that taking the Seeker out of commission (Malfoy milking Buckbeak's scratch on his arm) effectively postpones the game, I'm willing to believe that reserves are not a regular thing. I mean, let's consider. There were six years' worth of broomstick- riding Gryffindors to chose from for a new Seeker (I'm not counting the first-years, since they're not *supposed* to be playing yet), and Harry's the best one. What's that say about the flying abilities of the average student? Quidditch is very demanding, requiring the finest reflexes and the highest skill on a broomstick. Every student can fly, pretty much, but how many of them can FLY? It's like racing. Almost anyone can drive, but how many can really DRIVE? It's a very rare talent that must be honed to a true skill. Just my 2 knuts worth. Tammy From JessaDrow at aol.com Sat Apr 12 20:37:51 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 16:37:51 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: Ron ( Reserves?) Message-ID: <99.3620379d.2bc9d31f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55252 There might be more positions open this year than I thought, am I wrong in thinking that Fred and George graduated this year? They did take their OWLS in between book three and four. ~Faith~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From heidit at netbox.com Sat Apr 12 22:15:14 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 18:15:14 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] nine and three quarters Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55253 Interesting math, but I think you might be working it somewhat backwards. If JKR decided to give Harry her birthday simply because it was a good date in the summer, close to the start of school, and separately decided that there was something inherently magical about Halloween, then that nine and three quarters years might've been why she gave that number to the platform. -----Original Message----- From: "Hans" Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 21:38:17 To:HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Subject: [HPforGrownups] nine and three quarters Real-To: "Hans" Has anyone thought of the significance of the number nine and three quarters? I have searched through all the ancillary books and the archive of this group, but can't find any explanation of the meaning of that number. It's not just a number Dr Rowling has chosen randomly. Harry's parents were killed when he was exactly 1 and a quarter years old (July 31 1980 to Oct 31 1981 (Halloween)). Hagrid turned up with the invitation letter on Harry's 11th birthday. That makes Harry's "Muggle" period exactly 9 and 3 quarters years. It's a sort of gateway number - a gateway to the magical world. But why 9 and 3 quarters? It's 117 months. That's 9 times 13. It's also 39 (=3x13) divided by 4 years. Any ideas? "Hans" ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 12 22:24:18 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 22:24:18 -0000 Subject: OOP: Ron ( Reserves?) and Fred and George speculation In-Reply-To: <99.3620379d.2bc9d31f@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55254 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, JessaDrow at a... wrote: > There might be more positions open this year than I thought, am I > wrong in thinking that Fred and George graduated this year? They > did take their OWLS in between book three and four. > > ~Faith~ > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Well they may decide to leave at the end of their sixth year (i.e. end of GoF), but they would probably stay to the end of the seventh year (Hogwarts is a seven year school). OWLS are taken at the end of the fifth year. NEWTS are taken at the end of the seventh year. Even if they decide to open their joke shop, an extra year studying things like potions,charms and transfiguration would help them to create new joke objects. So I think Gred and Forge will be back this year. Pip!Squeak (aka Pip) From meboriqua at aol.com Sat Apr 12 22:28:11 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 22:28:11 -0000 Subject: OOP: Ron In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55255 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "psychic_serpent" wrote: >I wonder whether JKR would throw us for a loop and have Ron be so good as a Keeper that he would suddenly be the one getting all of the attention> and > This sort of thing could really alienate Harry and Hermione from him for a while, largely because Ron often does come off as a sore winner.> I tried to reply to this last night but was booted from AOL and lost my post. Let me try again. I can see a scenario where it is Harry and Hermione who are alienated from Ron, but I really feel that is Harry alone who will be alienated. One scene from GoF that stands out in my mind is when Harry quietly backed away while Hermione and Ron were arguing and ended up in the Owlery, watching it get dark, probably for several hours. I see more of this in OoP. At the end of GoF, Harry has witnessed a classmate's murder, experienced torture, and was forced to play a part in bringing back Voldemort's body. Voldemort isn't interested in Hermione or Ron; it is Harry he wants. I can imagine Harry distancing himself from his friends for fear of what might happen to them, and if he will be having nightly nightmares, as was suggested in the new blurb, he may not want to share that. We already know Harry is not quite the kind of person who runs and tells his intimate secrets even to his closest friends, let alone others who can help. Ron developing an ego and a half would be an interesting twist, though. I wonder how Harry really would take it if he wasn't the one everyone sought out. Would he really like it? Or would he get really irritated at Ron for letting fame get to his head in the way it never did with Harry? --jenny from ravenclaw ******************** From flamingstarchows at att.net Sat Apr 12 22:43:43 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (FlamingStar Chows) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 17:43:43 -0500 Subject: OOP: ( Reserves?) References: Message-ID: <004a01c30144$f9a8d0a0$5011570c@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 55256 ----- Original Message ----- From: Laura There is no reference to *current* reserves. Besides, they aren't really necessary, are they? There's no mention of sibstitution. And in the Muggle World, teams keep extra players in case of injuries. But what magical injuries can't be cured overnight, if not in 2 seconds? ----Me---- Harry missed the final game is SS because he was unconscious in the hospital wing for three days. It is mentioned early in CoS that they were flattened in that final game because they had no seeker and had to play one player short. ~Cathy~ From errolowl at yahoo.com Sun Apr 13 00:46:55 2003 From: errolowl at yahoo.com (errolowl) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 00:46:55 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Bill is Ever So Dead with DIMINISHED CAPACITIES In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55257 Had I only wandered into the Tavern with hopes of a drink or two? Ha, if only life were that simple, for here I was with a mound of moldy scrolls, piled in my arms and no way to even get to my drink anymore. "I am head of the Auror!Arthur department of the Imperius!Arthur trimaran." Abigail proclaims. "Can I interest you in some of our literature?" I gulped; glad that between the scrolls and my fedora, no one else was likely to see my bemused expression. "Um... do you think you could give me a summary?" I asked tentatively shoving the parchment rolls on to the bar. "And what else do you have in those pockets? Beyond the squashed sausages and slug repellent clinging to these scrolls I mean " "Well, you don't really need to get into all the canon for either theory at this point." Abigail conceded ignoring my latter question. "What you need to know is that Imperius!Arthur contends that at some point during Voldemort's first reign of terror, Arthur was placed under an Imperius curse. The older children, Bill and Charlie, would have been 10 or thereabouts by the time Voldemort fell, and would have more coherent memories of the time. They were probably cautioned not to reveal anything to their siblings, but this is a time of crisis, and Harry and Ron are not children anymore, and if Bill is going to spend a lot of time with them... Well, you know that I think OOP will be about the Ministry, so isn't it convenient that Harry's conduit of information has been replaced by a character who knows a lot more about Voldemort's first reign?" "Um, I'm not too sure I buy all of the Imperius!Arthur theory to start with" I protest feebly. "I guess that that will be another round of drinks with Elkins, amongst others." "However it doesn't really matter to Dead!Bill that much. Harry has enough people close to him now who know a lot about Voldemort's first reign ? starting with Sirius, whom he is not hesitant about quizzing on those topics. Bill would only function as the conduit of one particular piece of information, namely letting the cat out of the bag about Imperius!Arthur that's really not much to do ." Abigail shakes her head violently. "How can you suggest that Bill has no larger role when he has in fact usurped the role of one of his brothers." "One of his brothers?" I echo. "You don't mean Percy?" "That's right." Abigail smiles. " Just as events outside Hogwarts begin to become important to the Trio, they are conveniently provided with a conduit of information directly from the Ministry in the shape of Percy. However, towards the end of the book, when Ron writes to Percy with questions at Sirius' request, Percy responds almost angrily, and refuses to share information beyond what he tells everyone who questions him. So who is it that next gives us information about goings-on in the Ministry? Bill. I suspect that this dynamic will continue. It's very likely, in my opinion, that Percy will have a storyline in OOP, in which case we're going to need another character to provide us with information. That character is Bill." "Oh, please." Derannimer interrupts. "We all know what you're really getting at. Don't listen to her, Errol...." "Ah, I might be listening to her Derannimer" I winked "...but don't you think for a minute I've bought it!. Just for starters, its not Bill who provides the information at the end Of GoF but *Molly*. And if that dynamic continues, I still don't see a role for Bill. . And how could Bill possibly replace Percy as a source when he is not at all involved with the ministry? Gringotts is internationally run by goblins, quite separate from the local government. In fact if there is anyone in the series less likely to be affected by troubles at the ministry or have access to their secrets I'd like to know!! The trio can still continue to get information from Arthur, and indirectly from the rest of the Weasleys and what they won't discuss Draco will set right, no fear. Nope, I don't see Bill as the informant. He's going to be more of a hero, and that's a bigger calling than mere informant." "Hey now, play fair" Abigail protests, exasperated. "Didn't you just contradict your own statement that Bill doesn't quite have a function in the narrative?" "Not in the overall theme of things, no. But definitely a major role in OotP. He has to get really close to Harry, and do enough for us to really mourn him when his beautiful young life gets tragically nipped in the bud" "The very notion that Bill is the one to die counters your insistence that the deaths of sympathetic characters have to have a progression to them" Abigail points out. "Bill is very similar to Cedric, and his introduction to the readers is practically identical. We met Cedric briefly in PoA, we got to know him better in GoF, at the end of which he died. So far, Bill has followed that exact same pattern. We may have known about his existance before GoF, but we only met him in that book, and now we suspect that he will have a larger role to play in OOP. Add to that the fact that Bill and Cedric are both coded the same way by the text - handsome, responsible, personable young men ." "And there ends the similarity!" I interrupt. "Bill is more personally identified with Harry, much more that Cedric who was viewed with from a `rival' PoV. Harry grudgingly came to like Cedric ?Bill is already established as actively representing "Family" now, and is the one the lot of them look up to. I'm quite certain he'll have adventures with Harry and establish an even better personal rapport. Didn't Lupin do as much? Bill's death, I guarantee, will be much more horrible to write than Cedric's. "There's another reason why I don't think it's a good idea to kill off a Weasley at this point." Abigail insists stubbornly. " Up until now, all the enemies Harry's faced have been focused on him. Killing off a Weasley brother moves the focus from Harry to Ron. I don't care how much a member of the Weasley family Harry feels himself to be. If Bill, whom he hardly knows, dies, the people most affected would be Ron and his family, and as we don't have direct emotional access to Ron, we wouldn't feel the full emotional impact of this death." I sighed and turned to ferret out my drink from under the scrolls. " Abi, Of course it would affect the Weasleys more ? Cedric's I imagine hurt his family a lot more than it did Harry, but we still end up focusing on Harry's feelings. That's the way the narrative is written. Ron would totally go berserk but for the first time, Harry will learn how others deal with grief. For the first time, he will not be mourning alone. Harry will be devastated by Bill's death, and feel guilty, and try to comfort Ron, watch Percy come back to the fold, stop the twins from going off the deep end, or perhaps even form "the order of the Phoenix" with the remaining siblings to get some hot-blooded revenge .anything could happen, the impact depending on how it is written ? and I'd say our Jo knows how to write! I still hold that Bill's death is perfect in the progression ? a more involved character, important to Harry but not tooo important, a death that would open a whole lot of issues on dealing with death. In fact I'm liking it better now ...Ron engulfed in grief might mature real fast, and if he tends to mourn by withdrawing, Harry will be on his own at the end of OoP and vulnerable (even if he has Hermione). ....say, does George mix anything in particular with these drinks? I seem to be rambling more than I ever do " " No such thing" George protested "you've just got an extra dose of mould into that.... really should pay attention to where you put those scrolls, you know. Abigail's pockets are the leading sources of food poisoning around here" I gingerly replaced my glass, almost fearful it would explode, and turned an inquisitive gaze at Abigail. "You do buy the Progression spin to DIMINISHED CAPACITIES don't you?" Abigail nods thoughtfully. "I can see that. I can also see several variations on that list. And frankly, I'm troubled by the fact that you've got three items on it. It occurs to me that this is the number of remaining books in the series. We've already had a book that ended with the death of a sympathetic character. What you seem to be suggesting is that every book yet to come will end with the same device." Abigail hops on a barstool. " And while you may be right, that DIMINISHED CAPACITIES demands a steady progression in the intensity of Bangs, it also demands that these Bangs have an element of surprise to them. The most effective Bang is the kind that no one expects. Consider this. OOP ends with the death of person X as you assumed. GoF already ended with Cedric's death. We've now had two books end with the death of sympathetic character - can there be any doubt that book 6 will also end in such a death? And when that death occurs, will it have the emotional intensity of Cedric's death and the OOP death?" I nod gratefully at George as he passes me another drink. "Oh, not at all...I never said each of the books *ended* with a death. Bill could die toward the end, even middle of OotP, but Book 6 might not Have any specific deaths someone might turn up missing perhaps and Book 7 could start with a Death, followed closely by another one in a double whammy .anythings possible. And with two successive deaths in 4 & 5 wouldn't you be waiting for one in 6 ? how like Jo to not give us one! Steady state? No way!" Marina laid a comforting hand on my shoulder as she joined us at the bar. "Hmm... You know, Errol, I think you're onto somethng here. In the later chapters of GoF, I seem to recall a definite suggestion of Fleur Delacour finding Bill rather... uhm... fanciable. And then we get a hint that Fleur might be returning to England the following year. Sounds to me like there is romance blooming in Bill's future, which, for a supporting character, is a sure-fire way to lower life expectancy." Abigail's cheeks redden. "What is it, Abigail?" I ask. "What? Oh, it's nothing." Abigail says hurriedly. "I agree that if Bill finds luurrve in OOP, his chances of survival decrease, but whether or not he will is pure speculation." "That's not it." Derannimer says gleefully. She reaches into one of Abigail's pockets, and pulls out another dusty tome. "Give that back!" Abigail cries. "It was just a joke! I wrote in on OT-Chatter, for heaven's sake!" "Well, if you must know, I used the third task Fleur Delacour encounter that you two seem to find so romantic to suggest that Bill is the first canonically gay character in the series." This is met with some silence. I don't think I was the only one who lost the use of my vocal chords just then . "Er....cough...does the fact that Harry reacts so much less strongly to Fleur than Ron signify a significantly reduced libido toward women? Or does it typify a stronger constitution that can resist Imperius with impunity? I'd say Bill is Strong too if Fleur was turning on the charm there, he was well up to not making a fool of himself, and I'm sure that intrigued Fleur more come on, she's so used to those poor saps fawning around her. Did she turn on a full blast of magic then? Maybe, `cause Harry not reacting is no clue ? He's practically immune too. Was she so stunned to see him that she temporarily forgot to turn on her charm? Possible it was just for a few minutes after all. Was she uncomfortable enchanting Bill? Oh I think not!...Bring it on Baby!!" And about this marriage thing..(grin) Tell me, George? Does you mother keep pushing you towards marriage as well? Errol. From catlady at wicca.net Sun Apr 13 02:22:55 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 02:22:55 -0000 Subject: MemoryCharm!Neville /Animagus!Harry /Orphan!Hagrid /Gay!Bill Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55258 Gregory Lynn wrote: << They know that memory charms can be broken however so if/when they need to get at the secret they can break it out of Neville's head. >> We know from GoF that breaking a Memory Charm does major damage to the person's mind and body: "She told me many things -- but the means I used to break the Memory Charm upon her were powerful, and when I had extracted all useful information from her, her mind and body were both damaged beyond repair. She had now served her purpose. I could not possess her. I disposed of her." No good guy would make a plan in which retrieving the information requires that kind of damage to a child who was too young to be able to give any kind of informed consent. Some people think no good guy would make such a plan even if the person was an adult volunteer. Many listies seem to think that the way to break a Memory Charm is to torture the person, with Cruciatis or Muggle-style burning and electric shocks, but I don't agree. I think that the way to break a Memory Charm is some specific spell for that purpose, with the pain and injury as side effects. "Faith" wrote: << I knew it! I knew he was going to be an animagus! Any chance that Harry takes and struggles with Animagus lessons but fails to become an Animagus? << Any takes on what form he choses? I think a stag. >> I believe that JKR said that Animagi don't get to choose their form, but instead the form reflects their personality. I think becoming a raven Animagus might suit his personality (black hair, good flyer, intelligent and persistent). I don't think JKR would choose a raven for him, and she *might* choose a stag, but I don't think that the noble stag who is leader of a herd, who challenges others to combat, who poses on the ridgetop so the whole world can see how beautiful and powerful he is, is a good fit for Harry's personality. JOdel wrote: << We never hear Hagrid mention any relatives apart from his dead father and his absent mother. >> H'mm. Think that Pappy Hagrid's family disowned him and cast him off because he married a giantess? Abigail sighed: << "Well, if you must know, I used the third task Fleur Delacour encounter that you two seem to find so romantic to suggest that Bill is the first canonically gay character in the series." >> I dunno about *first* but I think Bill is gay, thus providing opportunity for two comic scenes. One where Fleur comes to a gathering at the Burrow to pursue him and all the other Weasley brothers are following after her with their tongues hanging out, and even Arthur gazes at her with a dreamy smile, but Bill is not affected at all, not even when she catches him alone and forces a kiss on him. He explains to Fleur (and the reader) why she doesn't have a chance with him, and thus the reader is in on the joke when Bill finally gets tired of Molly nagging him to find a nice young witch and settle down and start giving her grandchildren. He tells her "I've already met the person with whom I want to spend the rest of my life, and it isn't a witch." Molly: "You should know better than to think that your father and I would be prejudiced against a Muggle daughter-in-law. If she's the girl of your choic, I'm sure she's a very fine person." Bill: "Not a Muggle." Molly, shocked, sits down. "Not... not a Veela!" Bill, amused: "He's a wizard." The family is taken aback by this news and has some difficulty coming to terms with it. Ron has the most difficulty, but both Hermione and Harry lecture him about gay rights ... maybe all they know about gay rights is what they've seen on television, but Hermione has her ideals, and Harry has a strong sense that anything Uncle Vernon hates so much is likely to be a good thing. When the family is reconciled and welcomes Bill's boyfriend for a visit, and we readers meet him and find that he also is a fine young man, that's the set-up for "romance blooming in Bill's future, which, for a supporting character, is a sure-fire way to lower life expectancy." Errol Owl wrote: << Er....cough...does the fact that Harry reacts so much less strongly to Fleur than Ron signify a significantly reduced libido toward women? >> Yes. I prefer Gay!Harry, but PreferringCelibacy!Harry is what I see in the text. From JessaDrow at aol.com Sat Apr 12 22:29:30 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 18:29:30 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: Ron ( Reserves?) and Fred and George speculation Message-ID: <12d.273d9930.2bc9ed4a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55259 pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk writes: > OWLS are taken at the end of the fifth year. NEWTS are taken at the > end of the seventh year. > > Even if they decide to open their joke shop, an extra year studying > things like potions,charms and transfiguration would help them to > create new joke objects. > > So I think Gred and Forge will be back this year. > Me: Great, I had thought they were at their seventh year, I forgot about the NEWTS. Glad to see they are going to be around abit longer, thanks. ~Faith~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Sat Apr 12 23:07:05 2003 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (Hans) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 23:07:05 -0000 Subject: nine and three quarters - further thought Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55260 Yes what you say is possible, I agree. But my gut feeling is that it's a lot deeper than that. The books work on so many different levels at the same time that your explanation seems too shallow for the genius of Dr Rowling. I've continued thinking about the number and I've gone to the "root" of the number as is done in numerology (arithmancy). Then you get 9+3+4=16=1+6=7. THE number! Just a coincidence? The Wizarding World Press' third Rule of Constant Vigilance is: "There's no such thing as coincidence [in the HP books]". (See "Ultimate Unofficial Gide to the Mysteries of Harry Potter" by G. Waters and A. Mithrandir). Hans --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Heidi Tandy" wrote: > Interesting math, but I think you might be working it somewhat backwards. If JKR decided to give Harry her birthday simply because it was a good date in the summer, close to the start of school, and separately decided that there was something inherently magical about Halloween, then that nine and three quarters years might've been why she gave that number to the platform. From patgruenke at cloudnet.com Sat Apr 12 23:13:05 2003 From: patgruenke at cloudnet.com (Pat and Jim Gruenke) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 18:13:05 -0500 Subject: OOP: DADA teacher Message-ID: <3E989D81.2AE65C24@cloudnet.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55261 Several people have argued for and against Fleur as the new DADA teacher. Here's a thought: What if it's Fleur's MOTHER??? Fleur wants to come to England to study, and going with her mother would be the perfect setup. I'm assuming the mother would be a half-Veela. Could be the poisoned-honey thing right there. I think the new DADA teacher will be someone we haven't met yet. I don't think it will be Mrs. Figg. She's a friend of the Weasleys, from the "old crowd" reference, and I don't see Mrs. Weasley being friends with someone with that personality. I think that the "Order of the Phoenix" is a name a group of friends just gave to themselves. Doesn't that sound like something a bunch of teenage kids would do? Pat, who should be outside enjoying the sun! From patgruenke at cloudnet.com Sat Apr 12 23:17:22 2003 From: patgruenke at cloudnet.com (Pat and Jim Gruenke) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 18:17:22 -0500 Subject: Nine and three quarters Message-ID: <3E989E82.E7C15986@cloudnet.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55262 Hans wrote: Has anyone thought of the significance of the number nine and three quarters? Here's my question, piggybacking on that idea: Are there also platforms nine and a quarter and nine and a half??? Seems to me that the platform between nine and ten would be nine and a half. Of course, I am far too literal at times... Pat [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From daniel.brent at cwctv.net Sun Apr 13 01:28:05 2003 From: daniel.brent at cwctv.net (evenflow200214) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 01:28:05 -0000 Subject: Hagrid & Tom Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55263 An issue that's puzzled me for awhile Does Hagrid know that Tom became Voldemort? He seems to know that Voldemort was at Hogwarts years ago, but does he link the guy who got him expelled, as Voldemort? Did Dumbledore divulge this piece of information to it? Is Hagrid sad that he never helped Tom? Or tried to? Were they friends at Hogwarts? Is Hagrid trying to make up for the fact that Tom turned out the way he did by attatching himself to Harry? Does he blame himself? If he doesn't know what Tom turned into, does he wonder what happened to him? Does he ask? "evenflow200214" From lianagoldenquill at hotmail.com Sun Apr 13 01:53:44 2003 From: lianagoldenquill at hotmail.com (liana_goldenquill) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 01:53:44 -0000 Subject: nine and three quarters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55264 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hans" wrote: > Has anyone thought of the significance of the number nine and three > quarters? > > I have searched through all the ancillary books and the archive of > this group, but can't find any explanation of the meaning of that > number. I have heard an old legend that Boudicca/Boadicea was buried between platforms 9 and 10 of the King's Cross Station. I remember this myth from long before I read the first Harry Potter book, so I'm not sure I can find sources to back it up, but I will keep trying. Boudicca or Boadicea (there are many variations) was a Celtic warrior- queen who was eventually conquered and killed by Roman troops, who went on to pillage her villages, rape her daughters, and so on. Simply because she was Celtic, she is popularly perceived to have a link with magic. I am not sure why King's Cross was supposed to have been erected over her burial site. But if J. K. has heard the same legends I have, I am certain that she wouldn't pass up the opportunity to link the wizarding world to its ancestors. "liana_goldenquill" From mkerby at airmail.net Sun Apr 13 01:56:24 2003 From: mkerby at airmail.net (Michele Kerby) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 20:56:24 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dementors and Depression In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4635887964.20030412205624@airmail.net> No: HPFGUIDX 55265 Wednesday, April 9, 2003, 1:51:04 AM, imamommy wrote: isn> Also, Remus told the DADA class that although Muggles cannot see isn> dementors, isn> they can feel them. Are there any examples of how Muggles feel them isn> or where isn> they feel them? I'm gonna come out of lurk mode for awhile because this is a question I actually know something about :) I think depression is definitely the way that a Muggle would feel the presence of a Dementor. I don't have my copy of PofA in front of me (or even nearby) but I believe that Hagrid said that due to the Dementors in Azkaban it was impossible to have a pleasant thought there. One could only think of darkness and pain. I can't remember the exact wording, but I remember it was as good a description of acute depression as I've ever read. Michele (who has fought against acute depression all of her rather long life) From drdara at yahoo.com Sun Apr 13 02:46:23 2003 From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 19:46:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: Ron ( Reserves?) In-Reply-To: <99.3620379d.2bc9d31f@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030413024623.70436.qmail@web14507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55266 --- JessaDrow at aol.com wrote: > There might be more positions open this year than I > thought, am I wrong in > thinking that Fred and George graduated this year? > They did take their OWLS > in between book three and four. > > ~Faith~ > > fred and george are in their last year. They were in their 6th year in book 4. You take OWLS before 6th year and NEWTS at the end of your 7th year. But they will need beaters and chasers in the 6th book. danielle __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com From patricia at obscure.org Sun Apr 13 03:52:50 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 23:52:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Veela charms and strength of will (was: Gay!Bill) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55267 On Sun, 13 Apr 2003, Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) wrote: > Errol Owl wrote: > > << Er....cough...does the fact that Harry reacts so much less > strongly to Fleur than Ron signify a significantly reduced libido > toward women? >> > > Yes. > > I prefer Gay!Harry, but PreferringCelibacy!Harry is what I see in > the text. I think it simply reflects a stronger will. Harry is also much better able to fight off the Imperius Curse than Ron. Both the Imperius and a veela's charms are forms of mind control, so it would make sense that the same trait or skill might help resist both. In fact, I think Harry's ability to shrug off Fleur's veela charms after his first exposure to veelas at the QWC in GoF is a bit of foreshadowing for his ability to resist Voldemort's Imperius at the end of the same book. Since JKR has established throughout the book that Harry's mind cannot easily be bent by outside forces, and that he learns to resist such attempts quickly, it doesn't seem quite so preposterous that he can shrug off an Unforgivable Curse cast by the most feared wizard on Earth in the big climax of the book. It's worth noting that Ron seems to demonstrate the opposite trait. He seems to be extremely susceptible to Fleur's charms, no matter how many times he is exposed, and he seemed to have more trouble than most shaking off the Imperius Curses cast on him by Moody!Crouch in DADA class. IIRC, he was still hopping down the hall well after that class ended. I fear this weakness of his could come back to haunt him (or Harry) eventually. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From drednort at alphalink.com.au Sun Apr 13 05:12:30 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 15:12:30 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: nine and three quarters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3E997E5E.13175.15145E3@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 55268 On 13 Apr 2003 at 1:53, liana_goldenquill wrote: > I have heard an old legend that Boudicca/Boadicea was buried between > platforms 9 and 10 of the King's Cross Station. I remember this myth > from long before I read the first Harry Potter book, so I'm not sure > I can find sources to back it up, but I will keep trying. I'm running a game at a roleplaying Convention next weekend based on this (Harry Potter and the Crown of the Warrior Queen), so I have checked references. It is an old legend, nobody is sure of the source, but the oldest reference I can find to it is in 'Boadicea - Warrior Queen of the Britons' published in 1937. Spence didn't claim that Boadicea was specifically buried at King's Cross, but he did site her final battle on the site of Kings Cross and St Pancras stations, and if she died during that battle (which is possible, but unlikely), it would make sense she'd have been buried near where she fell. But Spence's locating of the battle there is based on some pretty.... interesting assumptions. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "Almighty Ruler of the all; Whose power extends to great and small; Who guides the stars with steadfast law; Whose least creation fills with awe; Oh grant thy mercy and thy grace; To those who venture into space." From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Sun Apr 13 05:21:25 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 05:21:25 -0000 Subject: OOP: DADA teacher In-Reply-To: <3E989D81.2AE65C24@cloudnet.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55269 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Pat and Jim Gruenke wrote: > Several people have argued for and against Fleur as the new DADA > teacher. Here's a thought: What if it's Fleur's MOTHER??? What if the DADA teacher is Moaning Myrtle? Ectoplasmic status is not a barrier to a teaching career at Hogwarts, Myrtle has first hand experience with basilisks and Dark Lords, and as for poisoned honey, it would certainly be a step up from the effluvium in which she currently rejoices... Sed garviter populi (But seriously folks) - the prodigious talent of JKR delights in creating new characters for each new chapter of the HP saga, and I have no doubt that the new DADA prof will be a new and dynamic creation (not ruling out Arabella Figg, since she has hitherto been an 'off-screen' presence. - CMC From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Sun Apr 13 07:07:58 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 07:07:58 -0000 Subject: Meaning of 'Arabella' (WAS Re: OOP: Animagus) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55270 I wrote: >As for the meaning of the name Arabella Figg... We've dicussed it >before. Arabella means, AFAIK, 'Beautiful Sanctuary.'>> erinellii replied: >I looked "Arabella" up in the "Best Baby Name Book Ever" and it >gave the meaning as "answered prayer". But those meanings are still >pretty close. Me: Yes, they are. But I just checked an online Latin roots dictionary (http://catholic.archives.nd.edu), and it said that 'ara -ae f. [altar]; hence [refuge , protection].' 'Bella' means beautiful. So we get 'Beautiful Refuge' or 'Beautiful protection,' which is almost synonymous with 'Beautiful Sanctuary.' I wouldn't really attach too much meaning to the 'bella' part, as it's a fairly common ending for female names. So, basically, Arabella means 'protection.' Which, apparently, she provides. Maria, who likes to read Baby Names books From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Sun Apr 13 07:09:22 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 07:09:22 -0000 Subject: Quirrel's sister WAS Re: OOP: Poisoned Honey? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55271 sam2sar wrote: Does any think that maybe Quirrel could have a sister/aunt/daughter/mother who would have a reason to hate Harry? Me: That sounds awfully '20 Years After'-ish to me. That son of Milady's (Mordaunt, IIRC?) really irritated me, because he wasn't nearly as classy as his mother at murdering people and generally wreaking havoc. No, introducing a revenge-thirsty, broken-hearted relative would be lame, IMO. Maria From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Apr 13 08:18:20 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 08:18:20 -0000 Subject: The Longbottoms revisited In-Reply-To: <005501c300bd$14f31600$42ad1e42@ne2.client2.attbi.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55272 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Gregory Lynn" wrote: > ...edited... > > ..., why were the Longbottoms tortured? Answer: Because the Death Eaters were trying to locate Lord Voldemort. And yet, it was just the Longbottoms who were tortured, why is that? ...edited... Is there anything to suggest that the Longbottoms were involved in Voldemort's downfall? > bboy_mn: I will answer your theory with an old theory, and we'll see how they stack up against each other. Hagrid takes Harry from his parents house around midnight (close enough) then midnight the next night he delivers him to Dumbledore at the Dursley's. So where were Harry and Hagrid during those 24 hours? This of course, is an endlessly debated issue, and a mystery with few clues. Hagrid could have gone back to Hogwarts, but most of us assume there is a reasonably large distance between Gordic's Hollow and Hogwarts, although there is no definite proof of that. So where could he find some trusted and powerful wizard who lived close by. How about the Longbottoms? Mr. Longbottom is a very well like and respected Auror, and should certainly be powerful and well trained enough to protect Harry. Mrs. Longbottom has a son the same age as Harry so she is easily able to take care of a child. Seems like a good idea, so they stay at the Longbottoms. Now a year later, Harry and Neville are about two years old, a group of Death Eaters are desparate to find out what really happened the night Voldemort disappeared. The only living person who was there is Harry, but he can't talk. First person on the scene was Hagrid. Second person on the scene, Sirius, is locked up in prison, so we can eliminate him from the equation. The first person, Hagrid, talked to was the Longbottoms, that plus Mr. Longbottom was a top Auror who was probably still active in the search for Voldemort and the on-going investigation. So the Longbottoms would be the one person they, the Death Eaters, could get to who would be likely to have the information they needed. Two year old Neville witnesses his parents torture and may have been tortured himself. So Neville's problems are related to the torture itself and/or a memory charm that was placed on him so he could forget the nightmare of the torture. Who... what... when... where... and why... a complete equation. Or at least it is if you ignore all the unknowns and unfounded speculation. Just an alternate theory. > Gregory Lynn continues: > > My sort of half formed theory is this: > > ...edited... > > We know that Professor Trelawney made a previous legitimate prediction. ...edited... > > I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that the prediction involved the Potter/Voldemort conflict more specifically something to the effect of a Potter (or Gryffindor's heir) ending Voldemort's reign forever. So not knowing whether Voldemort was alive or dead, they sealed that prediction up inside Neville and made him forget that he even had it. > > ...edited... > ___________ > Gregory Lynn bboy_mn: Your theory does give a possible explaination for the events. The one problem I see is the assumption that only Trelawney and who ever heard her, knew about the prediction. Would a parent be likely to let their two year old child be used to store a secret without any explaination other than we have a secret we want to hide. Next, do we know that secret keepers work on any and all secrets, or is it only the magical consealment of the location of a person. That's how it was described, but no indication was given whether it was limited to the location of a person. Now the secret itself. It is very likely that the Centaurs know; they seem to have a great deal of knowledge of Harry's fate and the course of the future. Who ever heard Trelawney's prediction must have told Dumbledore, unless Dumbledore was the original and only person to hear it. If he was the only person, is it reasonable to assume the he would discuss it with no one? I think the most difficult part of your theory to accept is the idea that anyone would use a young innocent helpless unconscenting child as a secret keeper. I think most of us are in agreement that something is up with Neville. He is too far into the foreground of the story, his bad memory gets brought up just a little too often. There is definitely something going on there. Something significant happened to Neville, and I suspect it is somehow tied to Harry. I also thing that Neville is a far more powerful wizard than he appears to be, and I think something will happen that will unblock him. Just a few thoughts. It's alway good to hear a new theory. bboy_mn From catphile5 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 13 06:44:56 2003 From: catphile5 at yahoo.com (catphile5) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 06:44:56 -0000 Subject: Pronunciation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55273 --- "alician002 I'm guessing it was either 'kah-nuts' or 'kah-noots'. > > > > Just as a point of interest, can anyone think of a word in the English > > language that begins with 'kn' where the 'K' is not silent??? I > > couldn't find any, so in view of that, I can't imagine why I thought > > the 'K' should be pronounced. Ain't life strange? Me: FWIW the CD audio books pronounce it kah-nutts. The more I see kn words, the more tempted I am to pronounce the k, but I think it's just because it's amusing to do so. "catphile5" From nezray2001 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 13 07:07:22 2003 From: nezray2001 at yahoo.com (Ines Echegaray) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 00:07:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: Ron In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030413070722.60659.qmail@web11907.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55274 SPOILER SPACE ` ` ` bboy_mn wrote: We also need to ask ourselves, of the people we know of, who other than Ron is qualififed for the team. Nez writes: My point was to flesh out exactly why Ron's appointment would be so incredible. Which, as I said, I don't think is far fetched at all. Based on his brother's perfomances and his place in the fraternal heirarchy, I think he's in a good spot for a key defensive position. However, I couldn't help wondering if you had a specific character in mind when you suggested "Who other than Ron is qualified for the team?" Okay, I'll bite. Whom do you think? If I'm reading you wrong here please forgive my presumption of your baiting. I've been chatting amidst much Ron bashing energy lately and sometimes forget to check my baggage at the door. Not that I think he's a saint or anything, just trying to have a little compassion for human frailty. *cough* Alright then...um, hope we're still talking about Quidditch. Goodnight. (Backs out of room and resumes lurking.) "Nez" --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kenneyjohn at yahoo.com.au Sun Apr 13 07:18:41 2003 From: kenneyjohn at yahoo.com.au (kenney) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 07:18:41 -0000 Subject: The Evans Affair: brought to you by the Lumos charm... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55275 Ever notice the way Harry and Tom look exactly alike? But with no explanation. Surely the oldest Star Wars line "I am your father" can not be expelled from Voldemort's mouth. However, what about Grandma Evans? If Lilly's Mother had an affair with a man by the name of "Tom Riddle" then being ashamed of a bastard son, she faked her death and orphaned the abandoned child. This would then explain several key issued floating around: Why did Tom Riddle's Mother name him after a Man who deserted her? Why does Petunia Hate Lilly so much? Does she just hate wizards? Is Voldemort of any relation to Harry? And being so would make the sorting Hat's dilemma plausible? Some of these ideas may be answered by the speculation that Voldemort is Harry Potter's Uncle he DOES have a living relative Just a random thought from the Key of Kenneth Who, apart from the rest of the world would like to be as many kilometres as possible away from the Order of Phoenix plot synopsis. And is sure most people are breaking the rules when posting subjects... From erinellii at yahoo.com Sun Apr 13 07:51:42 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 07:51:42 -0000 Subject: nine and three quarters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55276 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hans" wrote: > Has anyone thought of the significance of the number nine and three > quarters? > > I have searched through all the ancillary books and the archive of > this group, but can't find any explanation of the meaning of that > number. > > It's not just a number Dr Rowling has chosen randomly. Harry's > parents were killed when he was exactly 1 and a quarter years old > (July 31 1980 to Oct 31 1981 (Halloween)). Hagrid turned up with the > invitation letter on Harry's 11th birthday. That makes > Harry's "Muggle" period exactly 9 and 3 quarters years. It's a sort > of gateway number - a gateway to the magical world. But why 9 and 3 > quarters? It's 117 months. That's 9 times 13. It's also 39 (=3x13) > divided by 4 years. Any ideas? I think you need to forget the "quarters" part and focus on the "nine and three". Nine and three add up to twelve. And I am surely not the only one who has noticed JKR's... fondness.... for the number 12.... Erin From ratchick22 at hotmail.com Sun Apr 13 08:07:49 2003 From: ratchick22 at hotmail.com (herm - own - ninny) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 08:07:49 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fudge: DE or not? (was Re: 50 Questions I would like answered..) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55277 Tom Wrote: >See? Fudge isn't just being selfish here. He isn't just being sneaky. He >disagrees with Dumbledore, partially because he has been misled by Albus, >partially because he doesn't have the facts, and partially because just >because Dumbledore's Dumbledore doesn't make Dumbledore necessarily right. >I bet that Fudge even feels betrayed. I completely agree with you, though I would also add to the list that Fudge has to answer to the public while Dumbledore does not. In fact, I think of Fudge as being much like a politician near election time. He's very concerned about the Ministry's reputation and cares about what the MoM appears to accomplish rather than what it actually accomplishes (ie: he wants to soothe the public to avoid panic and detour blame away from the Ministry). I believe this is his biggest fault and will be the Ministry's biggest failing with the imminent rise of Voldemort. I am 99% sure Fudge is not a DE as some have suggested, but merely incompetent and a hindrance to the good side because of his need to "look good" in the public eye. dina _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From abc10011 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 13 04:07:10 2003 From: abc10011 at yahoo.com (abc10011) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 04:07:10 -0000 Subject: Percy's future (was: Views on the most dangerous character in HP, Percy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55278 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "stickbook41" wrote: > abc10011: > > > I think he will be damaging based on his personality and Ron's > > > joke that he would turn his family in (Ron's jokes being correct many > > > times, like about the award to Tom Riddle for killing Myrtle). > > Faith: > > I don't think Percy is evil. He's just one of those people who put > more > > weight in the rules and their own importance. I do however think he > loves and > > cares for his family very much, we see evidence of this in GoF when > he went > > rushing to Ron's side when he came out of the lake....And I do > > see Percy putting his family first when it really counts. He is > ofcourse > > first and formost a Weasley. > > Me: > I agree with Faith. During the QWC riot, Percy didn't hesitate to > head out with Bill, Charlie, and Arthur. And he came back with a > bloody nose > I agree totally with you that that Percy in not evil and I would like to clarify what I meant. My intention was that his personality is to follow rules over "goodness" and therefore he will unwittingly become a tool of the nasty fellas. Of course any time that rules don't contradict goodness and family he will be good and comitted to his family, as in the examples brought above (the QWC riot and when Ron came out of the lake). Joe-founding member UNSC (unforgivables society) From elfundeb at comcast.net Sun Apr 13 11:05:54 2003 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 07:05:54 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: Ron References: Message-ID: <003101c301ac$a747a940$9ddc5644@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 55279 >From the Scholastic summary: * * * * * * * * > Add this to a host of other worries for Harry: > > * A Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher with a personality like > poisoned honey > * A venomous, disgruntled house-elf > * Ron as keeper of the Gryffindor Quidditch team > * And of course, what every student dreads: end-of-term Ordinary > Wizarding Level exams I've read with interest everyone's theories on just why Ron as keeper might worry Harry -- he might fail, or argue with Harry over strategy, or he might let success go to his head, and agree that any one of them might be plausible. To tell the truth, all of the conflict between Harry and Ron in GoF would seem pointless if there were not a continuing Ron subplot in OoP. But I'm going to throw a monkey wrench into this because my reaction on reading this was that the summary never actually *says* that Ron becomes keeper. Couldn't Harry be worrying about the mere possibility? In fact, Harry might well be worrying about every one of the issues named by Scholastic before he ever arrives at Hogwarts for his fifth year. DADA teacher with a personality like poisoned honey? Arabella Figg *did* feed him stale cake. There's no reason why he couldn't visit her over the summer and learn she's the new DADA professor. Ditto the venomous house-elf, the OWLs and WW politics. Indeed, I wouldn't expect a summary to include anything specific that went beyond the first 4 or 5 chapters. And in GoF 5 chapters doesn't even get us to the QWC. I agree with Barb when she suggested that: JKR may have omitted the > resolution between Harry and Ron from GoF because she was saving it > for this book--or at least, I certainly hope so. Someone suggested, very plausibly, that Harry might be named captain and be worried about having to choose between Ron and someone else. What if Harry chose a younger player over Ron? How would Ron react and what would that do to their friendship? Ron already suffers from an inferiority complex, and a rejection like that could be very difficult for Ron to deal with. It seems to me that this might be an equally plausible way of having the rift play out as if Ron made the team. Or not. Though I'm not willing to *assume* that Ron will become keeper because of the way the summary is written, even I have to acknowledge at this point that it's more likely than not that the language means Ron *will* become keeper. And that's ok, too, since I think Ron is Harry's metaphorical keeper, in the sense of being his last line of defense. In addition to the not-quite-resolved Rift, GoF also differed from earlier books in that Ron had no opportunity to support Harry in the way he does best. Ron couldn't offer to die for Harry, use his chess skills, etc. In fact, JKR left Ron without anything useful to do. Ron being passed over for the Quidditch team (or his making the team and having adjustment problems) would be another way of continuing the unresolved subplot of what is Ron's role in the Trio which, as Barb suggests, should be resolved in OoP. Whichever way it happens, I think that resolution is implied by the Scholastic summary itself: >Despite this (or perhaps because of it) Harry finds depth and strength in > his friends, beyond what even he knew; boundless loyalty, and unbearable > sacrifice. > Boundless loyalty and unbearable sacrifice. No, I don't think Ron will die. I think that instead he will be called upon to sacrifice something intangible that he *thought* was integrally a part of himself. Often this kind of sacrifice or letting go can be so difficult that offering to die seems simple in comparison. What the nature of Ron's sacrifice could be, I could only speculate wildly (though I have some ideas). But through this kind of sacrifice, Ron will begin to discover what it really means to be Ron Weasley, friend of Harry Potter. In other words, I think we'll see Ron finally start growing up by the end of OoP. Debbie who has asserted in the past that Ron *shouldn't* make the Quidditch team and so obviously read the Scholastic summary with a view to defending her own biases (humble pie being baked, to be ready to eat June 21) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From grosich at nyc.rr.com Sun Apr 13 14:10:56 2003 From: grosich at nyc.rr.com (Gina R Rosich) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 10:10:56 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] re: What If... Dumbledore had included Fudge in GoF Ch.35? In-Reply-To: <158831B4.5F5C4B8E.026A9F31@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55280 > In a message dated 4/11/2003 2:33:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, Gina Rosich > writes: > >> > >> > Inded. Which is why Fudge's denial became all that more frustrating when >> Snape dramatically showed him the dark mark as definitive proof. I mean, how >> could Fudge argue with THAT kind of evidence? But he did still disbelieve. >> Which is why I agree that it wouldn't have made a difference if he was there >> when Crouch was under the veritaserum or not. >> > > > Then Neotoma73 at aol.com wrote: > Fudge can argue because Snape is already discredited in his eyes. At the end > of PoA, Dumbledore makes Snape look unstable *at best* to Fudge, in order for > Dumbledore to arrange Sirius' escape. But that ruined Snape's credibility > later on; when he shows Fudge the Dark Mark, Fudge can dismiss it because he > already 'knows' that Snape sees things that aren't true, just like he 'knows' > that Harry isn't trustworthy because he's a Parselmouth and has visions of > Voldemort through his curse-scar. > > ME: I don?t know, Ann. You raise an interesting idea. But I Fudge just thought Snape was overreacting a bit. Looked at him kind of funny and all. But I did not get the impression that Snape was completely discredited as a result of that emotional display. Did anyone else think that? And besides, the Dark Mark is a magical tattoo. It can?t be visible unless Voldemort has returned. There?s no opinion or emotion about it. It?s a blatant fact, which I think Fudge simply chooses to ignore because he can?t accept the idea of Voldemort?s return. Regardless of whose arm it?s on. I?d dare say he?d be in denial if Voldemort spat in his face. He?d start off saying this was some sort of trick. In my mind, he just is and will continue to be frustratingly obstinate and dangerous due to his inability to face facts and deal with them. Gina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Apr 13 15:02:34 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 13 Apr 2003 15:02:34 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <1050246154.26.72507.m2@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55281 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat Date: Sunday, April 13, 2003 Time: 11:00AM - 7:00PM CDT (GMT-05:00) Hi everyone! Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type /join HP:1 For further info, see the Humongous BigFile, section 3.3. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hbfile.html#33 Hope to see you there! From finwitch at yahoo.com Sun Apr 13 12:01:52 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 12:01:52 -0000 Subject: Miranda Goshawk/Sirius... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55282 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Star Opal" wrote: > Okay, yet ANOTHER suggestion for the new DADA teacher: Miranda Goshawk. > She's the one who writes The Standard Book of Spells (Grade _) books that > Harry gets each year. > > She's female and we've never met her before. Sounds like potential to me. > Besides, except for CoS there's no real point of telling the readers the > names of Harry's text books and their authors. In all four books TSBoS(G_) > have been mentioned, three of which also include the author's name. (P/SS ch > 5, CoS ch 4, PoA ch 4, GoF ch 10) Yes, every detail counts. So - Miranda Goshawk could be a new teacher. DADA-teachers-pattern has been that we never *heard* a word of them until they gain the position, but as we are past half-way, I suppose all characters *are* already mentioned. Miranda Goshawk *might* hold the position for more than a year - and at least, she's mentioned as a book-author. Clue in CoS? Lockhart was *also* an author of *several* books... Then again, if Sirius ever gets free (the earlier the better, so that we can hear more about James Potter&co at school) - he might become a teacher... For some reason, I can only imagine Sirius Black as either the transfiguration teacher, possibly added with Gryffindor-head-of- house (Supposedly Dumbledore died, and McGonagall hired him, or McGonagall died and Dumbledore hired him), or working at Honeydukes so that Harry can *easily* visit him via the secret passage + Sirius would have quick access to chocolate to deal with Dementor-after- effects... Not that he's not experienced with DADA, but since Remus had that job, Potter's-best-friend-as-DADA_teacher has been used... -- Finwitch From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Apr 13 17:11:15 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 13 Apr 2003 17:11:15 -0000 Subject: File - Nimbus Fundraiser.txt Message-ID: <1050253875.35774661.8411.m12@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55283 Hi all -- Over the last four years, HP4GU has been the best online source for in-depth, mature discussion of all things Potter. The list has burgeoned to 6,300 members, more than twelve sister and regional lists, and the finest collection of Fantastic Posts essays about HP that one can locate on the web. Regional meetings are no longer so regional. In New York City, Chicago, London, Germany and all over the world in fact, we have met, sometimes in handfuls, sometimes in large numbers. And now, this summer, Harry Potter fans take the next step. More than 400 fans will converge on Orlando, Florida, to create the single largest gathering yet, at the *first ever* symposium centered solely on Harry Potter. But you know all this - or you do if you've been around lately. What you might not know is that Nimbus - 2003 needs HP4GU's help. And HP4GU needs your help. This vitally important first year's symposium - and therefore future symposia - depends on your support. Many people have said things like, "Well, I can't afford Nimbus this year, so I'll wait for next year." We certainly understand if you can't attend this year. But, if you can't go this time, there's an easy way you can help ensure that there is a next time. When the Nimbus - 2003 team formed in June of 2002, they envisioned an event that would set the tone. They saw the groundwork for future events, perhaps even eventually large enough to rent our own castle in Scotland for a long week-end. If event after event can prove our sincerity and our integrity, then perhaps we will win the respect of WB, JKR's agents, and even JKR herself. We could position this chain of symposia to become the official convention for adults, and possibly even become the preferred symposium for pursuit of the books. But without fan support, none of that can happen. Corporate sponsorship, which the event's organizers believed would be a natural source of funding, has not materialized as anticipated. Even corporations with significant ties to HP merchandise have been uninterested. The Nimbus - 2003 team attributes this to changing relationships of licensees to WB, the struggle of an unhistoried, untested event, and of course the general economy and world situation. Despite their hope that they would be able to supplement registrations with corporate contributions and lift the burden from the fans, the team finds themselves in need of grassroots assistance. Since Nimbus is the event that HP4GU inspired, they have turned to us, as well as the corners of the fandom, for that help. That is why, in addition to lending its reputation and support to Nimbus - 2003, we at HP4GU would like to make that support financial and be an official Nimbus "Symposium Sponsor." Nimbus offers Symposium Sponsorhip at the level of $15,000 (USD). That sounds like a lot. But remember how we said that the list boasts over 6,000 members? That means that if only half of you are able to donate $5 apiece, HP4GU can realize its goal. If you can give more, please give more, because we know there are those among you who cannot give any, much as you might like to. This sponsorship would pay for: ** Internet cafe, so that attendees and presenters can connect with HP fans around the world who are unable to attend Nimbus - 2003. Cost includes computer rental and internet access costs. [$5,000] ** Coverage of honoraria, hotel, and airfare for the Special Guests, including: Judith Krug, Connie Neal, John Granger, Philip Nel, and Roger Highfield [$3,500] ** Coverage of the Judith Krug Keynote Luncheon (Judith Krug is the Director of the Office of Intellectual Freedom for the American Library Association and will speak on the subject of censorship and book banning, with reference to Harry Potter in particular) [$3,000] ** The Farewell Breakfast on Sunday [$2,500] ** Welcoming Feast and Meet-and-Greet on Thursday night [$1,000] Moreover, for those of you who are U.S. taxpayers, your donation to the HP4GU Nimbus - 2003 sponsorship may be tax-deductible. HP Education Fanon, Inc., the company created to oversee these periodic recurring symposia, has been granted tax-exempt 501(c)3 status as an educational organization. That means your contribution carries the same advantages to you as a donation to your local charity of choice. We hope you will be part of the only event to grow out of the excellent, deep, shocking, and hilarious conversations you've enjoyed online. Be part of the vision shared by list member, elf, geist, and moderator alike. Even if you can't attend - even if you will - you have a chance to help make Harry Potter history. With your help, we can continue to prove that HP4GU is one of the best HP communities around - on the Web, or in person. With your help, that reputation will only be heightened, through the contact with and exchange between fans and academics and professionals who are equally enamoured of the books and all they represent. Plus, you'll be helping to create an amazing reality which for some will reinforce - or *create* - longstanding friendships and new communities. To make a donation, simply send funds via paypal to: hpfgu-donate at hp2003.org Or, if you prefer, you may send your donation (whether in US funds or other currency) to: Harry Potter Symposium - 2003 PO Box 18769 Rochester, NY 14618-0769 We hope that whether you can join us or not, you will consider making a contribution to show your support - not just for this year's event, but to ensure the future of any other similar conferences brought to you on behalf of *your* email list: HPforGrownups. Yours in anticipation of Nimbus - 2003, The HP4GU Moderators P.S. Don't forget, only $5 from you will do the trick! Follow this link (http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/nimbus-2003) to contribute to a Nimbus - 2003 Symposium Sponsorship today! From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sun Apr 13 17:45:50 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 18:45:50 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Men from the Ministry References: <1050177901.5957.33379.m4@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000601c301e4$863b2460$d97d0550@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 55284 JessaDrow wrote: >I had always thought that the Weasleys were well thought of in the WW. They >are an old pure-bred family. I think that they are indeed well thought of in the WW, though that wouldn't necessarily translate into being well thought of in the MoM. Dumbledore says something to the effect that Arthur should have been chosen as the Minister. So obviously he was in the field for the job - he must have sufficient experience, seniority, and track record within the Ministry - but he didn't get the job. Not only that, but he isn't even head of department. All of which leads me to think that there is a faction in the MoM which has an interest in keeping him out of positions of influence - possibly the remnants of Voldemort's supporters who had to lie low for a while after Voldemort's fall but then began to regroup (the occasional subtle conversation in the smoking room or in the pub after work...) to the extent that they are once again able to exercise an influence. MacNair would be an interesting choice as Minister... Scary. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sun Apr 13 18:16:01 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 19:16:01 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fudge References: <1050229079.1884.8425.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002301c301e8$bd797540$d97d0550@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 55285 Dina wrote: >I completely agree with you, though I would also add to the list that Fudge >has to answer to the public while Dumbledore does not. In fact, I think of >Fudge as being much like a politician near election time. He's very >concerned about the Ministry's reputation and cares about what the MoM >appears to accomplish rather than what it actually accomplishes (ie: he >wants to soothe the public to avoid panic and detour blame away from the >Ministry). I wonder how (and I mean "by what mechanism") you would see Fudge having to answer to the public? It seems to me that the only apparent means that the MoM have for gauging public views are the volume of complaints (as happened after the riot at the Cup Final) and the Daily Prophet. Both of them are imperfect, though. By definition, the only people who complain are those who have a gripe to complain about, so you will always get a negative response (and of course not only will those who are happy never write in, a lot of those who aren't happy don't write in either, they just grumble to their friends!). The Prophet seems _never_ to have a good word to say for anyone and behaves a bit like a caricature of some of the more scabrous UK tabloids. Now the Ministry _know_ that this is a problem and could therefore quite happily ignore any expressions of public discontent, secure in the knowledge that they can safely discount it and that in any case "a week is a long time in politics" and by brazening things out, once a little time has gone by, then everyone will have forgotten about it. This can work for Fudge for a little while, but the problem with ignoring the revived DEs is that Voldemort will not go away. The next thing that will happen will be the resumption of terrorist atrocities, possibly the old tactic of destroying families, possibly taking things to a higher level. Consider the effect on wizarding public opinion of an attack on Diagon Alley. Or on a Quidditch match. I think that Fudge will eventually have to go. But it will be internal manoeuvring that will remove him. And who will replace him will depend on the strength of the good and bad factions/ Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From catphile5 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 13 17:10:43 2003 From: catphile5 at yahoo.com (catphile5) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 17:10:43 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Death Eaters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55286 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cerys Gordon" wrote: >Malfoy Sr. always seemed to be friendly with Snape so did he not know of his betrayal? Me: This is an issue which has bugged me bunches and I really would like some thoughts on this. My presumptions include: since Fudge seems to worry about his constituency, it would follow that the WW has some sort of open democratic system, which would include a public court system. Dumbledore said in what could only be a highly visable trial that Snape had double-crossed LV. This would be public knowledge and not hidden from the DE's. Even if the court transcripts were not publicly available, any suspected DE's who "got off" would have to make public their alibi, or face OJ like public resentment. Even if all of that were not public (and therefore DE) knowledge, the fact that SS & Dumbledore are so buddy-buddy supportive of each other should be enough to make the Malfoy's utterly hate SS. So the question out there is: Why do the Malfoys like Snape so much? You'd think they would despise every bit of Snape as one who has betrayed LV. But Draco's affinity for SS seems genuine. It just doesn't jibe. "Catphile" From JessaDrow at aol.com Sun Apr 13 18:12:50 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 14:12:50 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Men from the Ministry Message-ID: <177.18f8a266.2bcb02a2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55287 In a message dated 4/13/03 1:47:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, manawydan at ntlworld.com writes: > think that they are indeed well thought of in the WW, though that wouldn't > necessarily translate into being well thought of in the MoM. Dumbledore > says > something to the effect that Arthur should have been chosen as the > Minister. > So obviously he was in the field for the job - he must have sufficient > experience, seniority, and track record within the Ministry - but he didn't > get the job. Not only that, but he isn't even head of department. > It is said in one of the books, don't ask me which one because I can't find the exact quote.. But I do believe it was said that the reason Arthur was held back was his love of muggles. ~Faith~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From siriuskase at earthlink.net Sun Apr 13 19:01:47 2003 From: siriuskase at earthlink.net (siriuskase) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 19:01:47 -0000 Subject: nine and three quarters Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55288 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Heidi Tandy" wrote: > Interesting math, but I think you might be working it somewhat backwards. If JKR decided to give Harry her birthday simply because it was a good date in the summer, close to the start of school, and separately decided that there was something inherently magical about Halloween, then that nine and three quarters years might've been why she gave that number to the platform. like you say, and the fact that he is always away from his friends on his birthday is so sad, underlying a major theme of the book From sydenmill at msn.com Sun Apr 13 19:36:48 2003 From: sydenmill at msn.com (bohcoo) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 19:36:48 -0000 Subject: OOP-Spoiler: Poisoned Honey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55289 S P O I L E R S P A C E Poisoned Honey: I interpret "poisoned honey" as someone sarcastic, but (sickeningly) nice about it. (Picture Betty White as the Happy Homemaker on the old Mary Tyler Moore show.) An example would be, "That dress looks fantastic on you! Most fat people can't wear plaid." Wouldn't a person like that be a great verbal target for McGonagall's dry sarcasm? (In ch. 11 of POA, at the Christmas dinner scene when Trelawney joins the feast: Trelawney: "I frequently act as though I am not possessed of the Inner Eye, so as not to make others nervous." McGonagall: "That explains a great deal." And so on through that whole scene.) Bohcoo From starropal at hotmail.com Sun Apr 13 21:31:19 2003 From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 16:31:19 -0500 Subject: Miranda Goshawk... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55290 Finwitch was very wonderful and replied: >Yes, every detail counts. So - Miranda Goshawk could be a new teacher. >DADA-teachers-pattern has been that we never *heard* a word of them until >they gain the position True, but they've also all been male, so perhaps that'll change. So we have someone we've heard of, but we haven't met - a compromise? In an effort to figure out why this name bothers me so much I've looked through all the authors. There are ten in all who are mentioned by name (some book titles are given but not authors). Only two of them have more than one book - Lockhart and Miranda Goshawk. She's also the only one to appear, not only in more than one HP book, but ALL the books. Why include the books at all? In P/SS there's quite a bit of humor (Emeric Switch, Phyllida Spore), in CoS it establishes Lockhart's character, PoA it gives a hint to Hagrid's teaching and the Grim, BUT in GoF _The Basic Book of Spells_ by Miranda Goshawk is the ONLY book mentioned, for no, as yet, apparent reason. For all four HP books there's no real reason to include the book, especially after P/SS. If she's not the next DADA teacher then there must be SOME significance. As for name analysis: Miranda means, admirable, beautiful, wonderful and was invented by William Shakespeare for the young heroine of The Tempest. Goshawk: A large powerful hawk (Accipiter gentilis) having broad rounded wings, a long tail, and gray or brownish plumage. Hawks, depending on where you look, symbolize different things. The sun, messengers, BUT also death, injustice, violence, and those people who prey upon the weak. Poisoned honey anyone? >Then again, if Sirius ever gets free (the earlier the better, so that we >can hear more about James Potter&co at school) - he might become a >teacher... For some reason, I can only imagine Sirius Black as either the >transfiguration teacher, possibly added with Gryffindor-head-of- >house (Supposedly Dumbledore died, and McGonagall hired him, or McGonagall >died and Dumbledore hired him I agree with the Transfiguration angle more, but if he does become a teacher I think it'll be after VW2. In the epilogue perhaps? Star Opal who will have to fight the urge to flip to where the next DADA will be revealed From starropal at hotmail.com Sun Apr 13 21:31:55 2003 From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 16:31:55 -0500 Subject: Miranda Goshawk... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55291 Finwitch was very wonderful and replied: >Yes, every detail counts. So - Miranda Goshawk could be a new teacher. >DADA-teachers-pattern has been that we never *heard* a word of them until >they gain the position True, but they've also all been male, so perhaps that'll change. So we have someone we've heard of, but we haven't met - a compromise? In an effort to figure out why this name bothers me so much I've looked through all the authors. There are ten in all who are mentioned by name (some book titles are given but not authors). Only two of them have more than one book - Lockhart and Miranda Goshawk. She's also the only one to appear, not only in more than one HP book, but ALL the books. Why include the books at all? In P/SS there's quite a bit of humor (Emeric Switch, Phyllida Spore), in CoS it establishes Lockhart's character, PoA it gives a hint to Hagrid's teaching and the Grim, BUT in GoF _The Basic Book of Spells_ by Miranda Goshawk is the ONLY book mentioned, for no, as yet, apparent reason. For all four HP books there's no real reason to include the book, especially after P/SS. If she's not the next DADA teacher then there must be SOME significance. As for name analysis: Miranda means, admirable, beautiful, wonderful and was invented by William Shakespeare for the young heroine of The Tempest. Goshawk: A large powerful hawk (Accipiter gentilis) having broad rounded wings, a long tail, and gray or brownish plumage. Hawks, depending on where you look, symbolize different things. The sun, messengers, BUT also death, injustice, violence, and those people who prey upon the weak. Poisoned honey anyone? >Then again, if Sirius ever gets free (the earlier the better, so that we >can hear more about James Potter&co at school) - he might become a >teacher... For some reason, I can only imagine Sirius Black as either the >transfiguration teacher, possibly added with Gryffindor-head-of- >house (Supposedly Dumbledore died, and McGonagall hired him, or McGonagall >died and Dumbledore hired him I agree with the Transfiguration angle more, but if he does become a teacher I think it'll be after VW2. In the epilogue perhaps? Star Opal who will have to fight the urge to flip to where the next DADA will be revealed _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From sydenmill at msn.com Sun Apr 13 20:07:55 2003 From: sydenmill at msn.com (bohcoo) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 20:07:55 -0000 Subject: Dark Lord, Dobby as a Spy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55292 Dark Lord: Has anyone else noticed that whenever anyone refers to Voldemort as "The Dark Lord" it is a tip-off that the person speaking is either a Death Eater or supporter? No one else uses the term "Dark Lord" in reference to Voldemort: GOF, ch. 35: Moody is taking Harry to the hospital wing after the return to the mouth of the Triwizard maze: "Clunk. Clunk. Clunk. Up the marble stairs. . ." (Chilling,huh?) "The Dark Lord was there? What happened then?" "The Dark Lord got his body back?" "You dueled with the Dark Lord?" "What did the Dark Lord take from you?" And so on. (This was the sequence that made me realize that "Dark Lord" was a clue.) GOF, ch. 33: Snape: "Every Death Eater had the sign burned into him by the Dark Lord. . . Karkaroff fears the Dark Lord's vengence." GOF, ch. 30: At one of the Death Eater trials Harry witnessed in the Pensieve: ". . .the woman with the heavy-lidded eyes looked up at Crouch and called, 'The Dark Lord will rise again, Crouch!'" POA, ch. 19: Pettigrew: "Sirius, Sirius, what could I have done? The Dark Lord. . . you have no idea." POA, ch. 16: Trelawney, in a trance: "The Dark Lord lies alone and friendless, abandoned by his followers." (Since she was channelling from the dark side, I'm not sure this brands her as a supporter. . .) COS, ch. 10: Dobby: "Harry Potter survived and the Dark Lord's power was broken, and it was a new dawn, sir. . ." (This could just be a clue that Dobby belonged to a dark wizard family and was repeating the name he heard frequently.) However. . . Dobby as Spy: The whole Dobby thing just rang a bit false to me. I reread the books with the thought in mind that he might have been acting as a spy for Malfoy, sent by Malfoy to somehow get close to Harry Potter and uncover the secret to Harry's survival over Voldemort so he could tell Malfoy and Malfoy could gain the power granted by knowledge. (Scabbers did the same thing by hooking up with the Weasleys. . . The Trio did the same thing with the Polyjuice potion, etc.) -- Dobby is bound to serve his wizard family and to keep their secrets and silence. Dobby had nothing to gain by alerting Harry, even going so far as to tell Harry that when Voldemort left, his lot in life didn't change one speck. So, why do it? He says he was doing it to keep Harry safe, that Harry is too important to be placed in peril. Well, Harry had thwarted Voldemort's comeback in SS and this may have concerned Malfoy as he plotted to reopen the Chamber through Riddle's diary. So, Malfoy sends Dobby to use his elf's brand of magic to keep Harry Potter away from Hogwarts, not for Harry's safety, but to ensure success in opening the Chamber, implicating the Weasleys and thus destroying Arthur Weasley's Muggle Protection Act. Malfoy wanted Harry out of the way and sent Dobby to do it. In COS, ch 2, Dobby tells Harry: "There is a plot, Harry Potter. A plot to make the most terrible things happen at Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry this year," whispered Dobby, suddenly trembling all over. "Dobby has known it for months, sir. Harry Potter must not put himself in peril. He is too important, sir." But, it wasn't until ch. 17 that Riddle explains to Harry, "Haven't I already told you," said Riddle quietly, "that killing Mudbloods doesn't matter to me anymore? For many months now, my new target has been -- you." Okay -- how did Dobby know that Harry Potter, in particular, would be in danger when Riddle himself didn't decide to go after Harry until after Ginny wrote all about Harry in the diary, months after Dobby's warning to Harry? Some kind of elf magic that can look into the future? Or, just a fib that Harry would buy as to why Dobby came to him in the first place? I truly believe Malfoy sent Dobby to prevent Harry's return to Hogwarts so he, Malfoy, could make sure Harry didn't interfere with his plans to have Ginny Weasley open the Chamber, discredit Arthur Weasley and perhaps get rid of some Mudbloods in the process. Watch out for Dobby. Bohcoo From daughterofthedust at yahoo.com Sun Apr 13 20:43:04 2003 From: daughterofthedust at yahoo.com (daughterofthedust) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 20:43:04 -0000 Subject: Ron's Downfall... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55293 I mentioned earlier (in the list of things I wanted to learn in the future books)that I have a feeling that Ron will end up screwing up royally. Now, here's why I think so. Ron has always had too much pride...That manifests itself in his shame of his family's finicial condition. He's almost completely oblivious to the the good things about his family, taking all that he has for granted. I think his pride is going to be a part of some future plot of Voldemort's.... Mark my words. ;-) "daughterofthedust" From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 13 22:34:08 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 15:34:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP-Spoiler: Poisoned Honey? In-Reply-To: <20030412191624.84198.qmail@web9204.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030413223408.19611.qmail@web21003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55294 Rona said: Huh...Well never underestimate Mrs. Rowling. Secondly, if we assume that if anyone is like poisoned is would be sweet Lily's sister Petunia.....call me crazy. I would think since Lily was sweet as honey the opposite of that would be the rotten apple of the family. Maybe that is why DD feels so at ease with Harry being at the Dursleys. Me: I can't agree with that. I think we keep wanting to bring the Dursey's into this but Petunia could never be the DADA teacher even if she does belatedly discover magical skills. It takes more than that to qualify to teach such a class! Also, your "poisoned honey" idea, while clever is more a play on words and I think hardly what the reviewer was talking about when he said that. There is no "honey", poisoned or otherwise in Petunia and I cannot believe the review was comparing Petunia with Lily! Whoever the teacher is, she has to come from the present magical community I'm sure. Also, one thing I keep thinking. While calling somebody "poisoned honey" is hardly a compliment, it does not necessarily mean that this DADA teach is bad or evil or even dislikes Harry. It can refer to other qualities of her personality. What qualities I daren't try to guess. Also, if she SEEMS to be possibly evil or anti-Harry at first, she probably isn't. Ms. Rowling is never that obvious. We'll see in time of course! Huggs Becky Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? 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Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jmholmes at breckcomm.com Sun Apr 13 21:40:20 2003 From: jmholmes at breckcomm.com (Julie Holmes) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 15:40:20 -0600 Subject: Pansy Parkinson Question Message-ID: <014101c30205$48825960$6401a8c0@arvada1.co.home.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55295 Has anyone here figured out the coding JKR uses in her journal, where she lists out the students? I'm referring to the pages she shows to the camera in "Harry Potter and Me" (aka "Biography" on A&E here in the states). I did refer to the screenshots taken that are in the photos section here, but Pansy's name is cut off. Anyone here have any idea what her blood status is? I have all the screenshots myself, but cannot find them on my hard drive (grr) and my beta reader thinks she may be a half-blood. If anyone can help, I'd appreciate it. . ?'?) ?.???.???) ?.?*?) (?.?? (?.?? ?.?? ?.???.?*`?-?~*~*~Julie~*~?*`?-? (?. I've lost my desire for doing The deeds any dragon should do But since I can't alter my nature I guess I'll just terrify you.... ?'?) ?.???.???) ?.?*?) (?.?? (?.?? ?.?? ?.???.?*`?-?draco*`?-? (? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Audra1976 at aol.com Mon Apr 14 00:29:08 2003 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 20:29:08 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Pansy Parkinson Question Message-ID: <133.1e360e8d.2bcb5ad4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55296 In a message dated 13/04/2003 20:13:06 Eastern Daylight Time, jmholmes at breckcomm.com writes: > Anyone here have any idea what her blood status is? I have all the > screenshots myself, but cannot find them on my hard drive (grr) and my beta > reader thinks she may be a half-blood. If anyone can help, I'd appreciate > it. Me: The code seems to be N = muggle born star = half blooded circled star = full blooded Although Pansy's symbol is not shown on the pictures, I'm relatively certain she is a full blooded witch, only because I doubt Draco would be allowed to (or would of his own choice) go to the Ball with someone who was not. -Audra- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lianagoldenquill at hotmail.com Mon Apr 14 00:28:13 2003 From: lianagoldenquill at hotmail.com (liana_goldenquill) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 00:28:13 -0000 Subject: Pansy Parkinson Question In-Reply-To: <014101c30205$48825960$6401a8c0@arvada1.co.home.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55297 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Julie Holmes" wrote: >Pansy's name is cut off. Anyone here have any idea what her blood status is? I've only seen the screenshot of the document briefly. However, even if it's not specifically stated there or elsewhere in canon, I'm almost positive Pansy is a full-blood. You've got to remember just how fervent Draco Malfoy is about purebloods -- and he certainly seems to be on good terms with Pansy. Unless it's the crux of your fic, I'd definitely run with her coming from pure wizard stock. From urbana at charter.net Mon Apr 14 01:13:07 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 01:13:07 -0000 Subject: The Evans Affair: brought to you by the Lumos charm... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55298 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kenney" wrote: > Ever notice the way Harry and Tom look exactly alike? Anne U: Actually, no. They don't look "exactly" alike. They both have dark hair, but IIRC Tom Riddle is never described as having *black* hair, while Harry (and his father, James) are both described many times as having black hair. Also mentioned numerous times are Harry's green eyes, which he got from Lily, whereas IIRC Tom Riddle is never mentioned as having green eyes. Presumably someone who actually *knew* Tom Riddle (Dumbledore) might have mentioned their "extraordinary physical resemblance" if such existed, but has anyone? I don't think so. (Could be wrong, no time to come through the books.) > However, what about Grandma Evans? > If Lilly's Mother had an affair with a man by the name of "Tom > Riddle" then being ashamed of a bastard son, she faked her death and > orphaned the abandoned child. Anne U: Faked her own death? Lily's *mother*? So you're saying that Tom Riddle's mother (who, IIRC, was a witch by the last name of Marvolo), was so ashamed of giving birth to Tom out of wedlock and being abandoned by his father that, in 1927, she faked her own death and left Tom Jr. to an orphanage and then, after living as a muggle for 25 to 30 years later, married Mr. Evans, a real muggle, and then gave birth to Petunia and Lily? Ah huh. I see. Actually, I don't. > This would then explain several key issued floating around: > > Why did Tom Riddle's Mother name him after a Man who deserted her? Anne U: Maybe she loved him even though he turned out to be a scoundrel. That happens all the time in Real Life - why not in the WW? > Is Voldemort of any relation to Harry? And being so would make the > sorting Hat's dilemma plausible? Anne U: The sorting hat's dilemma was plausible because (as Dumbledore mentioned in COS), some of Voldemort's powers rubbed off on Harry when he successfully resisted V's attempt to AK him in 1981. Harry doesn't need to have any other relationship to LV, IMO. Anne U (looking around for Occam's razor) From gandharvika at hotmail.com Mon Apr 14 01:40:29 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 01:40:29 +0000 Subject: (FILK) Famous Harry Potter Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55299 Famous Harry Potter (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Think For Yourself_ by the Beatles) Midi is here: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Studio/7779/beatle10.html Dedicated to Ginger, who is still Ginger...three time's a charm, babe! Scene: PoA, chapter 14, Snape's office Snape: I know you're lying to me No part of you should be in Hogsmeade We're trying to keep you well But famous Harry Potter is a law unto himself You do what you want to do Like sneaking out of the school Harry Potter thinks he is above the rules Even the Minister Is concerned about famous Harry Potter So what if they worry? Let others care about Famous Harry Potter's safety You do what you want to do Like sneaking out of the school Harry Potter thinks he is above the rules You're just like your father He didn't set much store by rules either He was so arrogant Strutting around the school because Of a little talent You do what you want to do Like sneaking out of the school Harry Potter thinks he is above the rules You do what you want to do Like sneaking out of the school Harry Potter thinks he is above the rules -Gail B...who has been listening to "Rubber Soul" this weekend :)> _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From catlady at wicca.net Mon Apr 14 01:40:39 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 01:40:39 -0000 Subject: MemoryCharm!Neville/K'nut/New Gryffindor Keeper/Grandma Evans/Miranda Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55300 Steve bboy_mn wrote: << Two year old Neville witnesses his parents torture and may have been tortured himself. So Neville's problems are related to the torture itself and/or a memory charm that was placed on him so he could forget the nightmare of the torture. >> Steve, you left out the Reverse Memory Charm theory, in which young Neville witnessed his parents' torture and a Reverse Memory Charm was placed on him to enhance his memory of that event so he could testify at the trial of the Pensieve Four despite being an infant, but the side-effect is that his mind is always full of those horrible memories, which is why he can't quite concentrate/remember anything else. Isn't that supposed to be how Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder works, even without magic? Catphile5 wrote: << FWIW the CD audio books pronounce it kah-nutts. >> I keep pronouncing Knut as kah-noot, because it is spelled the same as King Knut, englished as Canute (the one who ordered the tide not to come in). Nez Echegaray wrote: << I couldn't help wondering if you had a specific character in mind when you suggested "Who other than Ron is qualified for the team?" >> I like Ron (even if he and I would dislike each other if we knew each other in real life), and I have long hoped that he would become Gryffindor Keeper (he has the build -- tall, with long arms and legs -- and there is a vacancy) and be so good at it that he would be a new school hero and get some of that glory he yearns for. But I've always figured that JKR doesn't want to make Ron happy; she wants to keep turning up the pressure on him. Which would probably include him losing in the try-outs to be on the team. I thought Dean Thomas might get the Keeper position: he is also tall with long arms and legs, and maybe he has become as sports-mad for Quidditch as he is known to be for futbol, and maybe playground experience as futbol goalie is *some* background for Quidditch Keeper. And then Ron would have the humiliation of not only losing, but losing to a Muggle-born student who hadn't even heard of Quidditch until he started Hogwarts (and probably it was Ron who first explained Quidditch to him). That could put a strain on his absence of 'racial' bigotry. Or Lavender Brown, who is also a Muggle-born student, and a *girl* as well, but has shown no interest in Quidditch in canon so far. [My evidence that Lavender is Muggle-born is the scene in Divination when the Grim is mentioned: "He could tell that he wasn't the only one who didn't understand; Dean Thomas shrugged at him and Lavender Brown looked puzzled, but nearly everybody else clapped their hands to their mouths in horror." We know that Harry and Dean were raised by Muggles who never told them about the Grim, and I am convinced that the same applies to Lavender not knowing about the Grim. Even tho' I would have PREFERRED her to be wizard-born (she has such a perfectly wizarding name!) and the Patil sisters to be Muggle-born (still *possible*, if Parvati had somehow heard of the Grim since coming to Hogwarts, on some rare occasion when she was separated from Lavender).] [If it were going to be one of the two hypothetical other Gryffindor girls in that year, she SHOULD have been mentioned by name before the fifth book.] Or a younger student, but the only younger Gryffindors I recall are the Creeveys and Ginny. The Creeveys are Muggle-born, but surely much too small to be Keeper -- maybe they can try out for reserve Seeker. That leaves Ginny -- and I suspect that losing to His Own Little Sister would hurt Ron's pride the most. I can imagine him whining "I'm the only person in my whole family who didn't get on the team, except Percy, and he didn't even try out!" (altho' I can also imagine that Bill also didn't even try out). Key of Kenneth wrote: << Ever notice the way Harry and Tom look exactly alike? But with no explanation. Surely the oldest Star Wars line "I am your father" can not be expelled from Voldemort's mouth. However, what about Grandma Evans? If Lilly's Mother had an affair with a man by the name of "Tom Riddle" then being ashamed of a bastard son, she faked her death and orphaned the abandoned child. >> I am a bit confused about what is it that you're suggesting -- are you suggesting that Lily and Petunia's mother was a witch, the one who bore Tom Marvolo Riddle? After which she faked her death and had a new life in the Muggle world and bore Petunia and Lily? Considering that TMR was born sometime in the 1920s and Lily was born in the 1950s, witch-lady might have needed to fake her death a second time and start a second new Muggle life, to stop people from gossiping about her longevity. I don't see how it would explain Petunia's resentment, except as jealousy that BOTH her mum and her sis were witches and she wasn't. Btw, I think that neither Lily nor Hermione are the descendent of witches or wizards, in the last several hundred years anyway, because I think that having very powerful and heroic witches who are vital to the plot of the story and history of the wizarding world be Muggle- born is part of JKR's anti-bigotry agenda. Whatever you were suggesting about Grandma Evans, I don't believe that Harry is related to Riddle on his mother's side, because Harry's resemblance to his FATHER is as much emphasised in the text as his resemblance to Tom Marvolo Riddle. If Harry's resemblance to Tom was the result of them being related, they would have to be related through James. I really do not like the idea that TMR was James's father, but TMR is not old enough to have been James's mother's father. H'm. If TMR's mother faked her death as you suggest, and made her new life in the wizarding world instead of the Muggle world, she *could* have become James's mother or James's mother's mother or James's father's mother ... that IS not the archetypal fairy-tale motif of the bad guy killed by his own heroic descendent, but JKR is good enough that she could make a matrilineal prophecy, some "fruit from the same tree", equally dramatic, and MAYBE she would want to. Anne U replied to Key of Kenneth: << Faked her own death? Lily's *mother*? So you're saying that Tom Riddle's mother (who, IIRC, was a witch by the last name of Marvolo), >> Anne, the one part I don't agree with you about is that TMR's mother had the last name of Marvolo. TMR told us that his mother gave him the middle name of Marvolo after her father, not specifying if it were her father's first or last name. I immediately assumed it was his first name -- it sounds like a wizarding first name, like Prospero (see next). I was quite surprised the first time I saw a fic that assumed that Marvolo was the family name. Surely British wizards with the family name of Marvolo would have anglicized it to Marvell? Star Opal wrote: << Miranda means, admirable, beautiful, wonderful and was invented by William Shakespeare for the young heroine of The Tempest. >> Shakespeare's Miranda was the daughter of Prospero, his wizard, so I have been under the impression that Miranda and Prospero would fairly normal names for witches and wizards in the Potterverse. So I have often imagined that TMR's mother was named Miranda. From jmmears at comcast.net Mon Apr 14 02:30:51 2003 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 02:30:51 -0000 Subject: Ron's Downfall... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55301 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "daughterofthedust" wrote: > I mentioned earlier (in the list of things I wanted to learn in the > future books)that I have a feeling that Ron will end up screwing up > royally. > > Now, here's why I think so. > > Ron has always had too much pride...That manifests itself in his > shame of his family's finicial condition. He's almost completely > oblivious to the the good things about his family, taking all that > he has for granted. > > I think his pride is going to be a part of some future plot of > Voldemort's.... > > Mark my words. ;-) :Sighing heavily: I've pretty much abandoned my efforts to defend Ron from the frequent bashing he receives in the fandom since most of it seems to be related to the shipping position of the basher. Defending him in those cases is mostly pointless. I'll assume that's not the case with daughterofthedust however, unless she tells me otherwise. How do you define "too much pride"? If it's because he's ashamed of his shabby dress robes and hand-me-downs, can I ask you to outline how a 14 year old with just the right amount of pride should react? After all, his family's poverty and it's outward signs have gained him unending abuse and humiliation from Malfoy for 4 solid years. He's also seen his home and parents insulted repeatedly and even had to witness his father's public humiliation from Malfoy senior. IMO it's a bit much to ask that an adolescent boy accept this sort of treatment without some sort of negative response. In fact, if he didn't get angry at this abuse, I'd like him a whole lot less. I don't agree that he is oblivious to the good things about his family either. If he were, he wouldn't bother sharing them with Harry and Hermione; he'd be much too embarrassed by the shabbiness of his home. His rather generous inclusion of Harry in particular, shows me that he knows exactly what Harry needs most of all in life, and that he's in a unique position to provide it. He never shows any resentment about his mother's fussing over Harry. What you describe as "taking all that he has for granted" I would describe as the typical behavior of an adolescent boy who has never had any reason to doubt that he is well-loved by his entire family. Any child should be able to take that for granted. I certainly hope my kids do. If you want to focus on characters with an excess of pride, then you might want to take another look at Harry. His pride has caused him more than a little trouble over his four years at Hogwarts. Jo Serenadust From purple_801999 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 14 03:48:19 2003 From: purple_801999 at yahoo.com (purple_801999) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 03:48:19 -0000 Subject: Miranda Goshawk... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55302 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Star Opal" wrote: > Finwitch was very wonderful and replied: > >Yes, every detail counts. So - Miranda Goshawk could be a new teacher. > >DADA-teachers-pattern has been that we never *heard* a word of them until > >they gain the position > Star Opal wrote- > True, but they've also all been male, so perhaps that'll change. So we have someone we've heard of, but we haven't met - a compromise? > > In an effort to figure out why this name bothers me so much I've >looked through all the authors. There are ten in all who are >mentioned by name (some book titles are given but not authors). Only >two of them have more > than one book - Lockhart and Miranda Goshawk. She's also the only one to > appear, not only in more than one HP book, but ALL the books. > > Why include the books at all? In P/SS there's quite a bit of humor (Emeric > Switch, Phyllida Spore), in CoS it establishes Lockhart's character, PoA it > gives a hint to Hagrid's teaching and the Grim, BUT in GoF _The Basic Book > of Spells_ by Miranda Goshawk is the ONLY book mentioned, for no, as yet, > apparent reason. For all four HP books there's no real reason to include the > book, especially after P/SS. If she's not the next DADA teacher then there > must be SOME significance. > I was struck by Miranda Goshawk's name while rereading the books because she was the only author who's name was 'normal' (as normal as wizard names get) on the list. The other names are all humorus and related to the subject. I pondered it but then forgot all about it. Goshawk as the new DADA teacher is a wonderful posibility and incredibly plausible. None of us have any knowledge of her abilities in DADA, but being an expert in spel casting is a good start.. Figg and Delacour maybe red herring planted by JKR. But maybe not. And I like Harry's book list, it's hilarious. Star Opal again- > As for name analysis: > Miranda means, admirable, beautiful, wonderful and was invented by William > Shakespeare for the young heroine of The Tempest. > > Goshawk: A large powerful hawk (Accipiter gentilis) having broad rounded > wings, a long tail, and gray or brownish plumage. > Hawks, depending on where you look, symbolize different things. The sun, > messengers, BUT also death, injustice, violence, and those people who prey > upon the weak. > Okay, how is Goshawk pronounced? It's driving me crazy guessing. I'm going to get all aboard the Goshawk express and then she'll never be mentioned again. Hopefully we get some more availiable women for Sirius, Lupin, and the like. Those fellas need some lovin'! Even if certain readers hate them for it. > > Star Opal > who will have to fight the urge to flip to where the next DADA will be > revealed Olivia Grey Who's just planing the quickest route to the display rack to the cash register, back to my car where I may conceivable stay until I finish the book. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Apr 14 06:10:29 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 06:10:29 -0000 Subject: OOP: Ron In-Reply-To: <20030413070722.60659.qmail@web11907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55303 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ines Echegaray wrote: > SPOILER SPACE > > ` > > ` > > ` > bboy_mn wrote: > > We also need to ask ourselves, of the people we know of, who other > than Ron is qualififed for the team. > > Nez writes: > > My point was to flesh out exactly why Ron's appointment would be so incredible. Which, as I said, I don't think is far fetched at all. ...edited... > > However, I couldn't help wondering if you had a specific character in mind when you suggested "Who other than Ron is qualified for the team?" > > Okay, I'll bite. > > Whom do you think? > >...edited... > > Alright then...um, hope we're still talking about Quidditch. > > Goodnight. > > (Backs out of room and resumes lurking.) > > "Nez" bboy_mn: I think maybe there is some confusion here. I wasn't disputing anything you said, in fact, in another post, I said nearly the identical thing. I was just trying to expand what you said. - Ron is likely because he has interest, experience, and a family history of good Quidditch players - I expaned that by pointing out that current 6th and 7th years are probably excluded because they are getting ready to leave. - another general point, if the start training a reserve team now, then 6th year, they will have a team ready to go. They won't be starting the season cold with an inexperienced team. - The question about "who other than Ron" was to point out to people in general that we really don't have a lot of named characters in the story who are likely candidates for the team. Seamus has experience flying, but we don't know how much practical experience he has. The only other named characters I can think of outside Harry class is Colin Creevey. The point is Ron has established flying and Quidditch experience. I've been predicting that Ron would be the new Keeper for months, so I'm firmly behind the idea and I think there is sufficient text in the existing books to justify that position. So, one again, I wasn't trying to dispute you but to agree and expand the logic behing the likelihood of Ron being Keeper. Sometimes I'm posting pretty late at night and my brain isn't always working with a full head of steam, so what I'm trying to say can become a little garbled. Sorry about the mix up. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Apr 14 07:05:20 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 07:05:20 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Death Eaters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55304 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "catphile5" wrote: > ...edited... > > So the question out there is: > Why do the Malfoys like Snape so much? You'd think they would > despise every bit of Snape as one who has betrayed LV. But > Draco's affinity for SS seems genuine. It just doesn't jibe. > > "Catphile" bboy_mn: If Snape was a spy for Dumbledore then he is in big trouble, but if he was a spy for Voldemort pretending to be a spy for Dumbledore then he may have a chance of getting back in with Voldemort. Although, the really question isn't whether he really was a double agent, but whether Snape can convince Voldemort that he was a double agents. I could be wrong, but I can't see any other reasonable way that the story can go. bboy_mn From tzipporah42 at hotmail.com Mon Apr 14 05:42:41 2003 From: tzipporah42 at hotmail.com (Sarah) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 05:42:41 -0000 Subject: Filch the Traitor? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55305 I apologize if this has been discussed already, if it has just send me into the right archive :) I was thinking about JKR's statement the other day about how she included clues in Chamber of Secrets that would be important in later books, and it made me think of Harry's discovery of Filch the squib. Is it possible that one day Filch might make a bargain with Voldemort in exchange for magical abilities and sell Harry out? ~Sarah From Neotoma73 at aol.com Mon Apr 14 05:57:33 2003 From: Neotoma73 at aol.com (annoyedpackrat) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 05:57:33 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Death Eaters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55306 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "catphile5" wrote: > So the question out there is: > Why do the Malfoys like Snape so much? You'd think they would despise > every bit of Snape as one who has betrayed LV. But Draco's affinity > for SS seems genuine. It just doesn't jibe. > But do Snape and Lucius Malfoy actually *meet* in the books? I can't remember any scenes with them together. Yes, Snape does favor Draco, but it could be anything from genuine affection for Draco as teacher's pet to outright manipulation in hopes of staving off Lucius Malfoy's wrath. As to the legal wrangling, wizarding society seems a few centuries behind the Muggle one, so the court system could be much less fair and open than one might suspect, and the Death Eaters could have been subjected to secret trials. That's the only way I can think of Snape being cleared and yet not have his status as Death Eater and spy come out -- which it hadn't, since Sirius said he'd never heard about Snape as a Death Eater, even though Sirius suspected Snape and knew that most of Snape's schoolfriends had gone Dark. AnneL From basementgirl74 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 14 09:40:51 2003 From: basementgirl74 at yahoo.com (The Sparrow) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 02:40:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: It's all Lucius Malfoy's fault.... Message-ID: <20030414094051.32147.qmail@web40503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55307 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cerys Gordon" wrote: >Malfoy Sr. always seemed to be friendly with Snape so did he not know of his betrayal? Catphile5 responded: This is an issue which has bugged me bunches and I really would like some thoughts on this. Why do the Malfoys like Snape so much? You'd think they would despise every bit of Snape as one who has betrayed LV. But Draco's affinity for SS seems genuine. It just doesn't jibe. I suggest: Maybe it's all got to do with what Severus knows. Perhaps it's a kind of pre-emptive blackmail-if Lucius does anything to upset Snape, Snape will do something to upset Lucius-i.e. reveal hidden information. Alot of people know the Malfoys as DE but they remain unconvicted, possibly because of hidden information that might only be known to Snape. Another reason they remain unconvicted could be a combo of the family position in the WW coupled with Lucius having a hand in the way the Ministry is run. He is part of the commitee for the Disposal of Dangerous Creatures- a position which give him power of authority (official or not). It doesn't seem to matter if his postion is official, because his money-laced way of getting things done arguably makes him one of the most powerful man in the Ministry. This accounts for Arthur being held back from promotion. Crouch, Bagman and Fudge all seem to respect Arthur a great deal, so Lucius' power must be the only reason. I don't have my copy of GoF with me (Dammit!), but I've just thought of something. If Lucius and Crouch have a sort of agreement/friendship going on, then we could bring up that whole 'is-Crouch-a-death-eater' thing. I conclude he's not-or at least, he doesn't bear the Dark Mark. But do we know this for sure? Is he just not mentioned in the lineup of DEs at Vold's confrontation with Harry at the end of GoF? I'd also like to ask on a different subject- if flying carpet are banned because carpets are Muggle artefacts, then how can they get away with broomsticks? They're just as much a Muggle object. Hoping there are no huge holes in my hastily written post, Sparrow __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com From cymru1ca at yahoo.ca Mon Apr 14 11:44:26 2003 From: cymru1ca at yahoo.ca (Erica) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 11:44:26 -0000 Subject: Filch the Traitor? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55308 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sarah" wrote: > I apologize if this has been discussed already, if it has just send > me into the right archive :) > I was thinking about JKR's statement the other day about how she > included clues in Chamber of Secrets that would be important in later > books, and it made me think of Harry's discovery of Filch the squib. > Is it possible that one day Filch might make a bargain with Voldemort > in exchange for magical abilities and sell Harry out? > ~Sarah I always thought that Filch was a good candidate for that person who manifests magical abilities 'rather late in life' and possibly this is how he comes by those newly aquired abilities. However, I wonder if he would ever betray Dumbledore like that. He is the only Squib that we've come accross so far in the story that lives in the wizarding world. The other (the Weasley cousin), I believe, left the wizarding world for the muggle one. I get the impression that Dumbledore offered Filch 'a place' in the wizarding community where everyone else had shunned him (same as Dunbledore did for werewolf!Lupin, ideas_beyond_his_station!Dobby, etc) Erica From mdemeran at hotmail.com Mon Apr 14 13:18:34 2003 From: mdemeran at hotmail.com (Meg Demeranville) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 13:18:34 -0000 Subject: nine and three quarters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55309 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "siriuskase" like you say, and the fact that he is always away from his friends on his birthday is so sad, underlying a major theme of the book As one of those people who have late July birthdays, can I ask that you guys not refer to our birth month as sad...... Sure I didn't have a birthday party until I was 17, but I always just accepted it. I think Harry probably has too. He wouldn't have known any different. It doesn't seem that Dudley's birthday is celebrated with a huge party, rather it seems that the Dursleys do things as a family. So Harry probably doesn't expect the type of birthday party that other kids get. --Meg (who likes her summer birthday, thank you very much) From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Mon Apr 14 14:13:29 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 14:13:29 -0000 Subject: Snape's cover / Which Crouch? / Brooms, Carpets and Bribes In-Reply-To: <20030414094051.32147.qmail@web40503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55310 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, The Sparrow wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cerys Gordon" > > wrote: > >Malfoy Sr. always seemed to be friendly with Snape so > did he not know of his betrayal? > > Catphile5 responded: > This is an issue which has bugged me bunches and I > really would like some thoughts on this. > > Why do the Malfoys like Snape so much? You'd think > they would despise every bit of Snape as one who has betrayed LV. > But Draco's affinity for SS seems genuine. It just doesn't jibe. > > I suggest: > Maybe it's all got to do with what Severus knows. > Perhaps it's a kind of pre-emptive blackmail-if Lucius > does anything to upset Snape, Snape will do something > to upset Lucius-i.e. reveal hidden information. Alot > of people know the Malfoys as DE but they remain > unconvicted, possibly because of hidden information > that might only be known to Snape. That's a good one, and could also work in combination with my suggestion. I think it's entirely possible that Snape told Lucius, among others in the DEs, that he would approach Dumbledore and claim to be repentent, offering to spy for him. Thus, when Dumbledore says this very thing at the Ministry, when Karkaroff is desperate to finger more Death Eaters in order to get out of prison (Dumbledore's Pensieve), people like Lucius Malfoy would think, "Ah, that stupid old fool actually believes Snape is on his side... what an utter IDIOT." When, in fact, I believe that Snape IS genuinely on Dumbledore's side and needed desperately to avoid the possibility that Death Eaters would come after him. Thus, one of the major reasons Malfoy could like Snape so much is that he, like Lucius, has cleverly stayed out of prison and in the good graces of people in authority, like Dumbledore, while secretly harboring (Malfoy assumes) loyalties to the Dark Lord. (Malfoy is very chummy with Fudge, and gives money to St. Mungo's, another way to appear to be a Model Citizen.) > I don't have my copy of GoF with me (Dammit!), but > I've just thought of something. If Lucius and Crouch > have a sort of agreement/friendship going on, then we > could bring up that whole 'is-Crouch-a-death-eater' > thing. I conclude he's not-or at least, he doesn't > bear the Dark Mark. But do we know this for sure? Is > he just not mentioned in the lineup of DEs at Vold's > confrontation with Harry at the end of GoF? Here you've got me a bit confused. Which Crouch do you mean? Barty Crouch, Jr. WAS a Death Eater, and very likely had the Dark Mark. It is unlikely that his father was a Death Eater, however, even though he broke his son out of prison and kept him concealed in his house for over a decade. And who is it you are saying was with the DEs at the end of the book? Malfoy or Crouch? It was very clear Malfoy was there; he was upbraided by Voldemort for not searching him out, as Crouch, Jr. did. Whether Malfoy and the younger Crouch had any contact at all before he went to prison is unclear, and no one else knew about younger Barty escaping from prison except for Winky, Bertha Jorkins, and Wormtail. And eventually, Moody, of course, much good that did him just before he ended up in his own trunk for more than nine months. > I'd also like to ask on a different subject- if flying > carpet are banned because carpets are Muggle > artefacts, then how can they get away with > broomsticks? They're just as much a Muggle object. It's more a matter of tradition in Britain, I think. Plus, flying brooms, as described in the books (let alone the outlandish-looking things in the films, which IMO have ceased to resemble brooms at all) are unlikely to be confused with Muggle versions for sweeping floors and would be fairly easily kept out of Muggle hands, as everyone assumes that brooms in a wizarding household are for transpotation, not cleaning (that's what cleaning charms are for). OTOH, it would be hard to spot a flying carpet when just lying about or distinguish it from a non-flying carpet. That seems to be the real issue--items inadvertently getting into Muggle hands and displaying magical properties. The harder it is to tell a flying carpet from an ordinary carpet, the greater danger there is that a Muggle could get hold of it and trouble would ensue. Which just makes one wonder--what WAS Arthur thinking when he enchanted that car? One assumes that the official Ministry cars are yet another special case, and that extra care must be taken to keep them out of Muggle hands. (I'm speaking of the cars that drove the children to the train from the Burrow, which behaved very much like the Knight Bus.) I do agree with you that there are inconsistencies in the way JKR writes of wizarding law regarding these things. Or perhaps it's just that the wizarding government is like some small governments around the world that you hear of sometimes, where everything really functions on an elaborate system of whom to pay off (and how much), and the written law is completely secondary to this unwritten and rather complicated system of bribery. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From patricia at obscure.org Mon Apr 14 14:18:39 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 10:18:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: broomsticks vs. flying carpets (was: It's all Lucius Malfoy's fault....) In-Reply-To: <20030414094051.32147.qmail@web40503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55311 On Mon, 14 Apr 2003, The Sparrow wrote: > I'd also like to ask on a different subject- if flying > carpet are banned because carpets are Muggle > artefacts, then how can they get away with > broomsticks? They're just as much a Muggle object. I've thought about this too. It's rather inconsistent, but I think the inconsistency is on the part of the MoM and the ww, not JKR. The ww seems a bit obsessed when it comes to Quidditch. I doubt anything could convince them to give up their flying brooms, which would essentially outlaw Quidditch, even if it would be in line with their general legal reasoning. Basically, I think the ww makes an exception for brooms because they want to keep playing Quidditch, not because the exception makes any sense. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From grosich at nyc.rr.com Mon Apr 14 16:03:22 2003 From: grosich at nyc.rr.com (Gina Rosich) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 09:03:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] broomsticks vs. flying carpets (was: It's all Lucius Malfoy's fault....) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030414160322.45188.qmail@web13107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55312 On Mon, 14 Apr 2003, The Sparrow wrote: > I'd also like to ask on a different subject- if flying > carpet are banned because carpets are Muggle > artefacts, then how can they get away with > broomsticks? They're just as much a Muggle object. ME: I think it's a combination of tradition and racism, frankly. Brooms have been a long-standing tradition in the U.K. as a mode of transport. Also, they couldn't play Quidditch without brooms. Flying carpets, on the other hand, is an "artefact of the subcontinent." Since at one time India was colonized by the British, I can't help but consider some underlying racism. That flying carpets envokes images of maharishi and not of "good british families" packing up to travel together. Because, really, brooms and carpets are both muggle artefacts which have been bewitched for magical use. It is blatantly hypocritical at base. Then again, maybe broom companies might be giving some kind of "incentive" to the MoM so as not to have any financial competition. Who know. Gina :-) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 14 16:03:34 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 16:03:34 -0000 Subject: nine and three quarters Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55313 Hans asked: > Has anyone thought of the significance of the number nine and three > quarters? Now me: I'm not sure how much this will help, but it's from an article written after GoF was released: "She [JKR] wrote platform 9 ? when she was in Manchester and wrongly visualised the platforms of Euston and Kings Cross." (see: http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrshow.shtml) So there may not be much significance to the number after all. ~Phyllis From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Mon Apr 14 16:24:03 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 12:24:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] broomsticks vs. flying carpets AND Hogwarts's Security In-Reply-To: <20030414160322.45188.qmail@web13107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030414162403.98223.qmail@web20422.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55314 --- Gina Rosich wrote: > > I think it's a combination of tradition and racism, > frankly. Brooms have been a long-standing tradition > in the U.K. as a mode of transport. Also, they > couldn't play Quidditch without brooms. I'm sure that the basic reason is that the Ministry couldn't outlaw brooms if they tried. The wizarding community always seemed a little anarchic to me. They can't even enforce half the rules they do have. In this case, it might make sense to us Muggles to outlaw brooms outside of Quidditch, but to Mundungus Fletcher and company? > That flying carpets envokes > images of maharishi and not of "good british > families" packing up to travel together. Oh, I don't know. The Crouches had an Axminster that could seat twelve. What use is there for the broom outside of Quidditch anyway? It seems to me to be a relic of the past. First of all, one can't fly it around without taking extensive precautions or risking running afoul of Ministry regulations. But, once you've got your route planned out, and all precautions took, why take a broom? An adult wizard or witch should be able to apparate. If you can't apparate, floo powder can get you to a whole lot of places. We've got portkeys about. Meanwhile, there's the Knight Bus available, invisible to Muggle eyes. Also, if you want to take a lot of luggage with you, a broom is a really bad choice. I would think that the only broom-riding you'd do would be a) for the fun of it, b) to get to the few places that aren't otherwise accessible. In that second category falls Hogwarts. I was and continue to be disturbed by the security of Hogwarts. Sure, no one can apparate on the grounds, but anyone can fly in on broomsticks as proved by the Norbert episode in PS/SS. I would wonder if this were Hogwarts's Achilles Heel, except that the possibility that Sirius Black had entered from the air is not even considered in PoA, leading me to think that it's a mistake in JKR's conception of Hogwarts. Eileen ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com Mon Apr 14 16:33:44 2003 From: ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com (ingachristsuperstar) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 16:33:44 -0000 Subject: Dobby as a Spy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55315 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bohcoo" < sydenmill at m...> wrote: > Malfoy wanted Harry out of the way and sent Dobby to do it. > > In COS, ch 2, Dobby tells Harry: "There is a plot, Harry Potter. A > plot to make the most terrible things happen at Hogwarts School of > Witchcraft and Wizardry this year," whispered Dobby, suddenly > trembling all over. "Dobby has known it for months, sir. Harry > Potter must not put himself in peril. He is too important, sir." > > But, it wasn't until ch. 17 that Riddle explains to Harry, "Haven't I > already told you," said Riddle quietly, "that killing Mudbloods > doesn't matter to me anymore? For many months now, my new target > has been -- you." > > Okay -- how did Dobby know that Harry Potter, in particular, would > be in danger when Riddle himself didn't decide to go after Harry > until after Ginny wrote all about Harry in the diary, months after > Dobby's warning to Harry? Some kind of elf magic that can look into > the future? Or, just a fib that Harry would buy as to why Dobby came > to him in the first place? > Bohcoo Well, I don't think Dobby knew that Harry Potter would necessarily be in particular danger from the plot, but if Dobby knew there was a plan to release a monster that could kill people by looking at them, and Harry would be in the same building with said monster, it is not unreasonable to assume that Harry would be in danger. Even if DObby only knew that there was a plot to kill students, Harry would still have been in danger by virtue of being at Hogwarts. What's more, Dobby knows that the plot involves Voldemort. He knows that Voldemort has a tendancy to try to kill Harry. The diary!Voldemort doesn't know about Harry until later thru Ginny, and only then goes after him in particular. Dobby wouldn't know about this change of heart per se, but he would still have good reason to think that any incarnation of V would go after Harry. It is possible that Lucius sent Dobby to keep Harry away. But I don't think its necessary to explain Dobby's presence there. It would seem to be contradicted by Dobby constantly punishing himself for being there. I think the most consistent explanation is that Dobby was afraid for Harry's life and felt both indebted to him for the sake of the rest of his people who were no longer treated "like vermin" and a duty to prevent that from happening again. -Ing From stix4141 at hotmail.com Mon Apr 14 16:47:22 2003 From: stix4141 at hotmail.com (stickbook41) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 16:47:22 -0000 Subject: Percy and the Ministry In-Reply-To: <000801c3011c$76de5460$834d6551@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55316 Siriuskase: >I belive that most of the characters that we know very well to be >good will not intentionally cooperate with the forcers of evil. >Remember the remark that good people are so easy to use? We will see >a lot of good people being used and this will include Percy. Me: I think this is an excellent point--baddies will be habitually using "decent people" as tools to further their own nasty ends. However, I don't think this will include Percy, and here's why: it's already happened. When the story gets to Percy that he's been following Voldemort's orders via Imperioed!Crouch Sr, it's bound to cause some self-reflection on Percy's part--how easy it is to fall into Voldemort's web. Not only that, but it also puts Percy in a position to identify with (what we know of) Ludo Bagman, someone whom he does *not* respect. Percy's pride is going to be hurt badly, on top of all the other stressors involved in his particular situation. Me from before: > >I can imagine that now Percy is also unemployed, which is always > >stressful. Ffred: > I'm not sure why it would leave him unemployed. One of the things about the > MoM is that even if you take an individual out, the department and its > functions still have to carry on. Me: Just on speculation, I assumed he had lost his position as Crouch's personal assistant because there was no more Crouch! Maybe he'll be shuffled into some other temporary position somewhere within the Ministry, but the whole affair is bound to be a major bump in the career path Percy had projected for himself. I can slightly identify with his frustration here--I was all gung-ho to enter my field and the instant I finally got my degree was the same instant the economy (and therefore, the job market) went south. Needless to say, my ambitions and my upstart career took a sharp turn. Ffred: It could be that Percy would get promotion > as a result of his boss's death - something which could leave him having not > only to have the ability to play a more important role in WW politics (and > to temper whatever strength of character he's developed) but also one step > closer to his ambition of the Minister's post. Me: After all the self-projecting I'm doing (apologies!), I think you could be right, Ffred. I had the impression that Percy's department, International Magical Cooperation, would be in shambles. Crouch seemed like he was deeply involved with the department's affairs, rather than being just a figurehead (Bagman-style). Therefore taking Crouch out of the equation would leave a hole in the department so big it becomes a logistical nightmare. The department in its entirety needs reorganisation, and Percy finds himself in a position that turns out even better than being "Weatherby". Ffred: > Obviously the DE faction within the MoM would try to block him > getting advancement (his family connection would count against him) > but it would also be an interesting test of the strengths of the > various factions in the MoM...if my thoughts above are true, then > it suggests that the MoM is a factionalised organisation where WW > politics are played out within the bureaucracy. How factionalised I > wonder? How strong was the DE faction in Voldemort's time? How > strong are they now? Me: I'm not sure that DE moles in the Ministry are the ones to worry about this time around. It's the Fudge-ists, non-believers of Voldemort's return, who (based on my own interpretation), are the majority of the bureaucracy. This is the faction that is most vulnerable to manipulation by the Dark Order, as per BCJ's comment. It's going to be harder for the Dumbledorians in VWII because now they are going to have to mole into the Ministry (using Arthur as a hub?) and fight to make sure Voldemort doesn't get a strong hold there. Not only that, but they have to do all this with the utmost subtlety. Since the Ministry seems to be both legislative and executive, and organised from the top down, personal politics are bound to play a role in one's placement there--I can imagine that black sheep would be weeded out. Cheers! -stickbook ...who hopes Percy moves up through the Ministry like a wrecking ball and becomes the best and most effective Minister of Magic ever From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Mon Apr 14 12:31:28 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 12:31:28 -0000 Subject: OOP: ( Reserves?) In-Reply-To: <004a01c30144$f9a8d0a0$5011570c@pavilion> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55317 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "FlamingStar Chows" wrote: > > Harry missed the final game is SS because he was unconscious in the hospital > wing for three days. It is mentioned early in CoS that they were flattened > in that final game because they had no seeker and had to play one player > short. > > ~Cathy~ That doesn't make any sense. Of course they would loose, the only way they could win is if you have situation like GoF at World Cup where the opposing seeker decides to end the game even though it means his team will lose--And how often does that happen? I mean could a team even play without a seeker? "Serena" From erinellii at yahoo.com Mon Apr 14 14:17:47 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 14:17:47 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Death Eaters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55318 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annoyedpackrat" wrote: > As to the legal wrangling, wizarding society seems a few centuries > behind the Muggle one, so the court system could be much less fair > and open than one might suspect, and the Death Eaters could have been subjected to secret trials. That's the only way I can think of Snape being cleared and yet not have his status as Death Eater and spy come out -- which it hadn't, since Sirius said he'd never heard about Snape as a Death Eater, even though Sirius suspected Snape and knew that most of Snape's schoolfriends had gone Dark. ME: Ok, first off, we do know that the court system most certainly *is* less fair than the real world one. Crouch in particular is mentioned as having had the power to send suspects (including Sirius) to jail without a trial. And there possibly were secret trials. But Snape's was not one of them. Here are some quotes from GoF when Harry is in the pensieve: ***************************************** Breathing hard and fast, Harry looked around him. Not one of the witches and wizards in the room (and there were at least two hundred of them) was looking at him. "Snape has been cleared by this council," said Crouch distainfully. "He has been vouched for by Albus Dumbledore." "No!" shouted Karkaroff, straining at the chains that bound him to the chair. "I assure you! Severus Snape is a Death Eater!" Dumbledore had gotten to his feet. " I have given evidence already on this matter," he said calmly. "Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater. However, he rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk. He is now no more a Death Eater than I am." ******************************************* Both these quotes are from the same trial, Karkaroff's. Over two hundred people heard that Snape was a spy for the good side. Plus we don't know how many learned about it the first time Dumbledore gave evidence. I contend that it is rather hard to keep a secret that over two hundred people already know. It may not be general street knowledge, but I am positive all the important players know. Of course Sirius hadn't heard it. He was captured the day after Voldy fell. This trial took place months afterwards. Actually, I'm not quite sure what I'm trying to contend here. Oh, yeah, I remember. Just that it is impossible that most of the Death Eaters don't already know this about Snape... and someone has probably already told You-Know-Who. Snape's secret is NOT secret enough for him to expect to be welcomed back into the fold. Erin From erinellii at yahoo.com Mon Apr 14 14:22:00 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 14:22:00 -0000 Subject: nine and three quarters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55319 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Meg Demeranville" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "siriuskase" > like you say, and the fact that he is always away from his > friends on his birthday is so sad, underlying a major theme of the > book > > As one of those people who have late July birthdays, can I ask that > you guys not refer to our birth month as sad...... Sure I didn't > have a birthday party until I was 17, but I always just accepted it. I think Harry probably has too. He wouldn't have known any > different. It doesn't seem that Dudley's birthday is celebrated with a huge party, rather it seems that the Dursleys do things as a > family. So Harry probably doesn't expect the type of birthday party > that other kids get. > > --Meg (who likes her summer birthday, thank you very much) Harry's birthday is the same as J. K. Rowling's. So I doubt she sees it as sad. Plus he *has* been getting presents these last few years. Erin From stillginger1966 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 14 14:41:07 2003 From: stillginger1966 at yahoo.com (stillginger1966) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 14:41:07 -0000 Subject: single parents in HP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55320 I apologize if this has been brought up before, but has anyone else noticed that there don't seem to be many single parents in HP? Tom Riddle and Hagrid are the only ones I recall being from divorced/seperated families. In both cases, it was a non-widarding parent who left. (Muggle for the former, giantess for the latter) The only other times I recall only one parent being mentioned are: Neville's Gran, who could easily be a widow. Colin Creevey, who only mentions that his father was a milkman, but makes no mention of his mother (although this may be for many reasons, none of which have to do with her absence or presence) Fleur, who's mother came to the tournament, but not her father (again, his absence from the tournament may not indicate his absence from her life) Did I miss anyone? Most of the parents are not mentioned at all, but of those who are, they all seem to be married. I confess I don't know current British statistics for single heads of households, but as JKR was a single mother when she wrote these, I kind of find it odd. Any thoughts? Ginger, who is still!Ginger despite being "terminated" by Yahoo 3 times! From cbdm1121 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 14 14:45:50 2003 From: cbdm1121 at yahoo.com (Tom Marvolo Riddle) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 14:45:50 -0000 Subject: Brromsticks vs. Flying Carpets Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55321 On Mon, 14 Apr 2003, The Sparrow wrote: > I'd also like to ask on a different subject- if flying > carpet are banned because carpets are Muggle > artefacts, then how can they get away with > broomsticks? They're just as much a Muggle object. And then Patricia wrote: >I've thought about this too.? It's rather inconsistent, but I think the >inconsistency is on the part of the MoM and the ww, not JKR.? The ww seem= s >a bit obsessed when it comes to Quidditch.? I doubt anything could >convince them to give up their flying brooms, which would essentially >outlaw Quidditch, even if it would be in line with their general legal >reasoning.? Basically, I think the ww makes an exception for brooms >because they want to keep playing Quidditch, not because the exception > makes any sense. Now me: The way I see it, flying broomsticks don't fall under the subject of enchan= ted Muggle objects because they're specifically designed by wizards for the = purpose of flying. Some brooms are racing brooms, some are faster than othe= rs, etc. But they are not brooms originally built by muggles for sweeping p= urposes, then enchanted to be able to fly. Carpets on the other hand, appar= ently were originally designed as floor decoration, then enchanted to fly.. That's just my take on it. Zach From manawydan at ntlworld.com Mon Apr 14 17:34:38 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 18:34:38 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Arthur References: <1050292112.7475.83370.m10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000e01c302ac$201feee0$d97d0550@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 55322 Faith wrote: >> So obviously he was in the field for the job - he must have sufficient >> experience, seniority, and track record within the Ministry - but he didn't >> get the job. Not only that, but he isn't even head of department. > >It is said in one of the books, don't ask me which one because I can't find >the exact quote.. But I do believe it was said that the reason Arthur was >held back was his love of muggles. Which I think strongly supports the argument I've been moving towards. It allows the DE faction to make common cause with what for want of a better word I'd call the "elitist" faction against Arthur - "he's too fond of muggles, you know. They _say_ he even practices _technology_ in his outside shed. How can we trust someone like that?" Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Mon Apr 14 17:42:15 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 13:42:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] single parents in HP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030414174215.14754.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55323 --- stillginger1966 wrote: > Most of the parents are not mentioned at all, but of > those who are, > they all seem to be married. > > I confess I don't know current British statistics > for single heads of > households, but as JKR was a single mother when she > wrote these, I > kind of find it odd. I have to admit that I've always found it odd that people find it odd. Traditional societies don't have the same rate of separation/divorce or out-of-wedlock births as does modern society. That's a fact. If JKR had written a wizarding society with a high break-up rate, I would probably not have bothered reading past PS/SS. It would have suggested that she was trying to teach her audience a "lesson,"(TM) and not paying attention to universe coherence. However, I think JKR is interested in family break-up. It has always interested me that there are very few intact families in the Potterverse. The Riddles, the Crouches, the Potters, the Longbottoms, and now the Diggorys have all come apart at the seams. I think this is only the beginning. We have four intact centre-stage families, btw, the Weasleys, the Malfoys, the Dursleys, and the Grangers. Well, I don't know about the Grangers. They might be allowed to survive the series, given that although Hermione is a main character, her family doesn't seem to be part of the story. The Malfoys, though, I don't see as making it through intact, and I would be very surprised if the Weasleys don't take casualties. Shake-ups with the Dursleys are expected. Eileen ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From pennylin at swbell.net Mon Apr 14 18:26:46 2003 From: pennylin at swbell.net (pennylin) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 13:26:46 -0500 Subject: Hermione's Birthday; SHIP (FITD) Message-ID: <036c01c302b3$686aff30$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 55324 Hi all -- Well, it would seem that one canon debate has been largely settled by JKR, via the DVD. The DVD contains a calendar, which includes a reference to Hermione's *12th* birthday on September 19th of the CoS school year. The Leaky Cauldron is reporting that WB has confirmed that JKR had input into the creation of that calendar and approved it: http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/ Therefore, the long-standing debate of interest to so many of us (and utterly bewildering to so many others) appears to be settled canonically, with the following results: a. Hermione turns 12 roughly 6 weeks after Harry does, so she is 2 months younger, not 10 months older. b. This raises a question of how the Magical Quill operates. I would personally think that this confirms my long-standing belief that the Magical Quill operates on a calendar year (so someone turning 11 on January 2nd would start on September 1st, as would someone who doesn't turn 11 until December 30th of that same year). Heidi has already told me that she is convinced that the Magical Quill might be tied to the fall equinox (with a cut-off date of September 21st). This question can perhaps be settled depending on whether Angelina Johnson returns to Hogwarts in OoP. If she does return, then it means she turned 17 in mid-October of her 6th year. This would mean that Angelina turned 12 shortly after starting Hogwarts in her first year ....... supporting Heidi's theory that the cut-off date is possibly September 21st. If Angelina had her 7th year in GoF and doesn't return as a student in OoP, then it will cut more toward the calendar-year cut-off date, IMO. The other alternative is that Hermione was some exception to the rule for the cut-off date. c. In any case, it is abundantly clear that if Hermione is 6 weeks younger than Harry, then there is no chance whatsoever that they are siblings. :--) SHIP: Also of interest on the DVD is, of course, an interview with JKR and Steve Kloves. In commenting on the Trio's interactions, Rowling noted that Columbus had foreshadowed in this 2nd film something she didn't touch on really until GoF and that is: "certain feelings between the *three* (3) of them." Ahem. Between the *3* of them. Hmmmmm. Well, I won't be so brave as to pass out the lyrics to "Farmer in the Dell" just yet, but that's certainly what hit me when I heard that interview comment. I mean, well, gosh, if there was ever a chance for her to say: "foreshadowing certain feelings between two of them ...." or "foreshadowing a Ron and Hermione romantic relationship," then, that would have been a good time, yes? And, of course, the *3* of them doesn't include Ginny either. I mean, how is Harry involved in a Ron/Hermione romantic relationship? The feelings are *between* the three of them, so I don't think his status as a peripheral bystander/observer works either. It would seem to me from her wording that Harry either has "certain" feelings for a member of the Trio or is the recipient of such feelings. We certainly have hashed through the meaning of the word "between" quite extensively in the past after all. :::::::humming a certain nursery rhyme::::::::::::: Penny From siskiou at earthlink.net Mon Apr 14 18:42:59 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 11:42:59 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's Birthday; SHIP (FITD) In-Reply-To: <036c01c302b3$686aff30$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> References: <036c01c302b3$686aff30$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: <198948827.20030414114259@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 55325 Hi, Monday, April 14, 2003, 11:26:46 AM, pennylin wrote: > I mean, how is Harry involved in a Ron/Hermione > romantic > relationship? The feelings are *between* the three of them, so I > don't > think his status as a peripheral bystander/observer works either. So, what about platonic feelings between Harry and Hermione (shown in the friendly hug) and emerging romantic feelings between Ron and Hermione (shown in their hesitation and shy looks)? I'd say the "farmer in the dell" theory is nowhere near a certainty. Don't you think friendship is a feeling? I think it's a wonderful one, and a main theme in HP. In fact, I think CC should have held back on putting something into the movies that doesn't start emerging until GoF. And I'm always amazed how completely different we all interpret the same material ;) -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From stix4141 at hotmail.com Mon Apr 14 18:51:42 2003 From: stix4141 at hotmail.com (stickbook41) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 18:51:42 -0000 Subject: Dobby as a Spy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55326 Bohcoo: > Dobby is bound to serve his wizard family [the Malfoys] > and to keep their secrets and silence. Dobby had nothing to gain by > alerting Harry, even going so far as to tell Harry that when > Voldemort left, his lot in life didn't change one speck. So, why do > it? ...snippings... > I truly believe Malfoy sent Dobby to prevent Harry's return to > Hogwarts so he, Malfoy, could make sure Harry didn't interfere > with his plans to have Ginny Weasley open the Chamber, discredit > Arthur Weasley and perhaps get rid of some Mudbloods in the process. Me: I was watching TMTMNBN2 over the week-end and was also formulating a theory about the mystery behind Dobby's motivation. I too think it's likely that Lucius Malfoy instructed Dobby to prevent Harry from returning to Hogwarts. What Dobby did without Lucius's knowledge was actually *speak* to Harry, rather than to just stay behind the scenes in typical house-elf fashion. Still, why would Dobby warn Harry? The difference between Dobby and all the other house-elves is that Dobby *wants* to be free. This indicates to me that, at the time of his enslavement under the Malfoy thumb, he *knew what he was missing*. Perhaps there was an earlier period of freedom, when Dobby was free to associate with whomever he wanted. Sometime during VWI, however, Dobby was re-enslaved, back to being "treated like vermin." There's a theory that bounces around the bay every so often that states that Dobby was once the Potter's house-elf. The Potters have been painted as being an old-money family who would likely have a house-elf around. I envision a situation where Dobby is free, and *chooses* to look after the Potters. A life-debt perhaps, or maybe James clothed him and subsequently befriended him. Sort-of a Batman/Alfred type of relationship. This gives more weight to what Sirius said about Crouch--"if you want to get the measure of a man, take a look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals" (paraphrased). Dobby goes from a happy home where he is wanted and appreciated to the *Malfoys*. (Perhaps abruptly, on Hallowe'en, 1981.) From one extreme to the other--how painfully jarring. But Dobby must still feel some sort of pull to Harry, at the beginning of CoS. This pull is strong enough to enable Dobby to somewhat-overcome his enslavement by the Malfoys. Perhaps the same type of determination that enabled Sirius to escape Azkaban. When Harry becomes the second Potter to free Dobby, it strengthens their bond so that when the Second Task rolls around, Dobby is more than willing to help out. It begs the question of how much Crouch!Moody knew about the Dobby-Potter bond. Any thoughts? Cheers! -stickbook From pennylin at swbell.net Mon Apr 14 19:13:34 2003 From: pennylin at swbell.net (pennylin) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 14:13:34 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's Birthday; SHIP (FITD) References: <036c01c302b3$686aff30$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> <198948827.20030414114259@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <03d401c302b9$f218c220$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 55327 Hi -- Susanne: <<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh, friendship definitely qualifies as a "feeling" and is a huge theme in HP, to be sure. But, that's not what JKR said. Her words were (and sorry, I should have just quoted in the last post): "Chris [Columbus] has kind of foreshadowed in this second film what I don't do until the 4th book, which is, you get hints of certain feelings between the three of them......that belong to a slightly more mature person." Therefore, I think it's quite clear that she is talking about *romantic* feelings. No, FITD is not a certainty. But, it sure seems she passed up a golden opportunity to shoot down H/H (or at least solidify R/H), IMHO. Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sarudy at yahoo.com Mon Apr 14 17:39:35 2003 From: sarudy at yahoo.com (karmakaze_kk) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 17:39:35 -0000 Subject: Miranda Goshawk... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55328 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "purple_801999" wrote: > Okay, how is Goshawk pronounced? It's driving me crazy guessing. I'm > going to get all aboard the Goshawk express and then she'll never be > mentioned again. Ok, it's a little hard to do this without phonetic symbols, but basically, it's GAHS-hok (the 'hawk' portion is pronounced normally, stress is slightly on the first syllable). Hope that helps. "Karmakaze" From dizymisslizzy at attbi.com Mon Apr 14 06:21:45 2003 From: dizymisslizzy at attbi.com (Liz Martin) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 06:21:45 -0000 Subject: New thought on Voldemort and Harry's Powers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55329 Hi, I'm not sure if this has been brought up before if it has sorry for bringing it up again. I was just watching my new copy of Chamber of Secrets DVD this evening. When it got to the end part where Dumbledore is talking to Harry about his similarities to Tom Riddle ie: speaking parseltongue. In the movie as well as the book Dumbledore says to Harry that Voldemort had transfered some of his powers to Harry the night he got his scar. Then I remembered about what had happend to Voldemort when he had tried to kill Harry, that his powers were taken from him and was left with nothing than a spirit. What if his powers transfered from himself to Harry leaving Volde with nothing and Harry with everything or at least most of his powers? In turn making Harry his downfall.That possibly if he kills Harry that he will also die? Because so far Volde has not been able to kill Harry even with him away from Dumbledore. Anyway that was it. Sorry for it being so long. Liz From katydid3500 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 14 19:38:45 2003 From: katydid3500 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 12:38:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Arthur In-Reply-To: <000e01c302ac$201feee0$d97d0550@f3b7j4> Message-ID: <20030414193845.69407.qmail@web40510.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55330 Faith wrote: >> So obviously he was in the field for the job - he must have sufficient >> experience, seniority, and track record within the Ministry - but he didn't >> get the job. Not only that, but he isn't even head of department. > >It is said in one of the books, don't ask me which one because I can't find >the exact quote.. But I do believe it was said that the reason Arthur was >held back was his love of muggles. Just for reference, since I listened to GoF with my too lazy to read roommate last night... Molly Weasley says that in the hospital when Dumbledore asks if he'll have her and Arthur's support and she says US Pg 711) "We know what Fudge is. It's Arthur's fondness for Muggles that has held him back at the Ministry all these years. Fudge thinks he lacks proper wizarding pride." ~Kathryn --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From annemehr at yahoo.com Mon Apr 14 20:00:40 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 20:00:40 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Birthday; SHIP (FITD) In-Reply-To: <03d401c302b9$f218c220$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55331 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pennylin" wrote: > No, FITD is not a certainty. But, it sure seems she passed up a >golden opportunity to shoot down H/H (or at least solidify R/H), >IMHO. Well, yes she did. She passes up almost every golden opportunity to say *anything* about what is going to come up in future books. I don't think we can really draw any conclusions from this. As far as relating the question to feelings among the *three* of them, I still can't conlcude much. It could cover FITD, but it could also cover what one of the boys will have to deal with emotionally if the other winds up romantically involved with Hermione. Again, I think JKR is being vague on purpose -- acknowledging how closely people are paying attention to the story without giving anything away. So, none of the SHIPs are in any danger of taking a real hit from this interview! Annemehr who is perfectly happy to accept whatever relationships the Trio get into, and is eagerly awaiting reading about whatever they may be. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Apr 14 20:34:02 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 20:34:02 -0000 Subject: broomsticks vs. flying carpets AND Hogwarts's Security In-Reply-To: <20030414162403.98223.qmail@web20422.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55332 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Eileen wrote: > --- Gina Rosich wrote: > > > I think it's a combination of tradition and racism, > > frankly. Brooms have been a long-standing tradition > > in the U.K. as a mode of transport. Also, they > > couldn't play Quidditch without brooms. > Eileen: > I'm sure that the basic reason is that the Ministry > couldn't outlaw brooms if they tried. ...edited... > Gina: > > That flying carpets envokes images of maharishi and not of > >"good british families" packing up to travel together. > Eileen: > Oh, I don't know. The Crouches had an Axminster that > could seat twelve. > > What use is there for the broom outside of Quidditch > anyway? It seems to me to be a relic of the past. bboy_mn: Broom vs Carpet- Making some basic assumption about the modern wizard world, Carpets are Muggle objects that are enchanted to fly; they are indeed carpets in every sense of the word. Brooms however are NOT muggle brooms enchanted to fly, they are devices manufactured by and for wizards with the ONE specific purpose of flying; they are not enchanted muggle artifacts. In fact, unlike usable carpets, magic brooms are absolutely worthless for sweeping. Brooms - make by wizards for wizards with no appliable muggle use. In fact, if a muggle found a flying broom, the only thing they could think of using it for would be kindling for the fireplace. > Eileen: > First of all, one can't fly it around without taking > extensive precautions or risking running afoul of > Ministry regulations. ...edited... > bboy_mn: Brooms vs Floo Powerder vs vs portkeys vs Apparation- Apparation- Not all wizards and witches can apparate, and even if you can, there is an element of danger to it unless you are very confident in your abilities. As you get older, I suspect your confident and ability might diminish. It would seem that a substantial minority prefer not to apparate, and while a substantial minority we can never really be sure just how big. Portkeys- Based on my own belief and a recent discussion about the nature of Portkeys, it would seem that they are not that easy to do. My belief which is re-enforced by, but not confirmed by canon, leads me to believe that it is a two stage process. First, a long process by which a object is made able to be a portkey then a short but somewhat difficult charm that programs it with the specifics for it's use, like destination and time. Then I believe that it's ability to take portkey programming is not permanent, so eventually the long 'make ready' process must be repeated. I base this on the fact that portkey are very convinient, but they are not used that often. Logically, there must be some reason why they are not used that often. My logic leads me to think that it is a long and difficult process; to long and difficult to make it practical. I also suspect, if there were a program them as you need them portkey story, the cost would be too expensive for everyday use. Portkeys like floo powerder are a stressful way to travel, especially if you are not too bright, inexperienced, or old. There is all that spinning around, flying through the air at high speed, then landing on the ground with a substantial 'thump'. Can't prove that, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Floo Powerder- Cheap and dirty, I think describes it best. It's somewhat hazardous in that you seem to be traveling in the Floo Stream with lots of other people, you have to keep your arms tucked in close to keep from bumping into other things/people in the Floo stream. Then again, there is all that spinning around which would be very stressful for a lot of people. Finally, the landing which consists of falling out of a fireplace. Then it is complicated by intent. Harry wasn't sure how, or when, or where he should, could, or would get out. You will also notice that Harry stayed in the Floo stream, until his thoughts told him he wanted to get out; he wanted it to stop, which ended up throwing him out at Knockturn Alley. How he mispronounced Diagon Alley contributed to his Floo travel problems, but I don't think it was a coincidence that he was thrown out as soon as he thought of wanting to be out. Harry is not too fond of either portkey or Floo travel, and he is young and strong. I can see older people really dreading it. Brooms- Get on and go; no special enchantments (other than some basic Disillusionment or apathy charms, so the muggles will ignore you), no high speed spinning around, no falling on your face, no soot and ash. You start when you want to start, you go where you want to go, and you only go as fast as you feel comfortable going. Great view, fresh air, shield charm to block the wind, warming charm for those cool evenings, and it's really really fun. A Firebolt can accelerate from 0 to 150 MPH in a very few short seconds. It could have a top speed of 200 mph. Much faster that the fastest automobile, and a lot less traffic. Anybody here who wouldn't love to have a magical flying broom? > Eileen > I was and continue to be disturbed by the security of Hogwarts. > Sure, no one can apparate on the grounds, but anyone > can fly in on broomsticks as proved by the Norbert > episode in PS/SS. I would wonder if this were > Hogwarts's Achilles Heel, except that the possibility > that Sirius Black had entered from the air is not even > considered in PoA, leading me to think that it's a > mistake in JKR's conception of Hogwarts. > > Eileen bboy_mn: Security after 11 (now 15) years of peace time will certainly be more lax than security during wartime. In wartime I would suspect that even if you could fly into Hogwart's airspace, some kind of warning would sound; a warning that would not be necessary during peace time. Or perhaps during peace time one or two broom could enter Hogwart's airspace with out a problem, but an alarm might sound if a large group tried to enter. I know that is all speculation, but among other things, it is intended to remind us that we don't have all the details. Just a thought. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Apr 14 20:50:25 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 20:50:25 -0000 Subject: Dobby as a Spy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55333 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bohcoo" wrote: > ...big edit... > > I truly believe Malfoy sent Dobby to prevent Harry's return to > Hogwarts so he, Malfoy, could make sure Harry didn't interfere > with his plans to have Ginny Weasley open the Chamber, discredit > Arthur Weasley and perhaps get rid of some Mudbloods in the process. > > Watch out for Dobby. > > Bohcoo bboy_mn: As much as I don't accept your D.I.E. (Dobby Is Evil) theory, I have to say you made an excellent case for your position. While you made a very convincing argument, I personally think Dobby's affection for Harry is too genuine for Dobby to be evil. I might be able to go as far as believing that Malfoy sent Dobby, but not so far as to believe that Dobby was acting in Malfoy's interest instead of Harry's. Just a thought. bboy_mn From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 14 21:05:06 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 21:05:06 -0000 Subject: single parents in HP AND the Dursleys In-Reply-To: <20030414174215.14754.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55334 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Eileen wrote: > --- stillginger1966 > wrote: > > Most of the parents are not mentioned at all, but of > > those who are, > > they all seem to be married. > > > > I confess I don't know current British statistics > > for single heads of > > households, but as JKR was a single mother when she > > wrote these, I > > kind of find it odd. > > I have to admit that I've always found it odd that > people find it odd. Traditional societies don't have > the same rate of separation/divorce or out-of-wedlock > births as does modern society. That's a fact. If JKR > had written a wizarding society with a high break-up > rate, I would probably not have bothered reading past > PS/SS. It would have suggested that she was trying to > teach her audience a "lesson,"(TM) and not paying > attention to universe coherence. I have actually wondered whether we're going to find that marriage in the WW is one of those 'binding magical contracts'. There seem to be NO divorces amongst pureblood families. Tom Riddle's mother naming him after the father who had abandoned them also suggests a feeling that some contracts cannot be broken. Tom Riddle Sr. may have walked out; Tom Riddle Jr. was still his son. Further, if marriage is a binding magical contract in the WW, then Tom Riddle Sr surely suffered for breaking it. There is one other divorce that I can think of, though it's not strictly a pureblood marriage - Hagrid's parents. Hagrid's giantess mother walked out on them (why, we do not yet know), leaving Hagrid to be brought up in a single parent family from the age of three, and then as an effective orphan from 12 when his father died. There's no suggestion that Hagrid Sr. remarried, so strictly it seems to be a 'separation' rather than a 'divorce'. > However, I think JKR is interested in family break-up. > It has always interested me that there are very few > intact families in the Potterverse. The Riddles, the > Crouches, the Potters, the Longbottoms, and now the > Diggorys have all come apart at the seams. I think > this is only the beginning. > > We have four intact centre-stage families, btw, the > Weasleys, the Malfoys, the Dursleys, and the Grangers. > Well, I don't know about the Grangers. They might be > allowed to survive the series, given that although > Hermione is a main character, her family doesn't seem > to be part of the story. The Malfoys, though, I don't > see as making it through intact, and I would be very > surprised if the Weasleys don't take casualties. > Shake-ups with the Dursleys are expected. > Eileen The Dursley's definitely do not have a healthy family structure. Vernon is a bully. Petunia smothers her natural son, and favours him over her foster son (though she is more caring towards Harry than Vernon is). Dudley displays many signs of being a deeply unhappy and disturbed child. Harry is the family 'scapegoat'. So the Dursley family is already showing problems; whether they'll be torn apart by external attacks or internal problems remains to be seen. Pip!Squeak (aka Pip) From laurence59 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 14 21:08:47 2003 From: laurence59 at yahoo.com (laurence59) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 21:08:47 -0000 Subject: OotP Scholastic Summary *HUGE SPOILERS* Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55335 This isn't my oppinion but a quote from the new Scholastic catalogue which contains a few spoilers about OotP. Only Read on if you want to know plot details. Below is Spoiler Space Spoiler Space Spoiler Space Are You Sure?????? Spoiler Space Spoiler Space Very Sure...... Spoiler Space Spoiler Space Ok Spoiler Space Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust." So spoke Albus Dumbledore at the end of Harry Potter's fourth year at Hogwarts. But as Harry enters his fifth year at wizard school, it seems those bonds have never been more sorely tested. Lord Voldemort's rise has opened a rift in the wizarding world between those who believe the truth about his return, and those who prefer to believe it's all madness and lies ? just more trouble from Harry Potter. Add this to a host of other worries for Harry - A Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher with a personality like poisoned honey - A venomous, disgruntled house-elf - Ron as keeper of the Gryffindor Quidditch team - And of course, what every student dreads: end-of-term Ordinary Wizarding Level exams and you'd know what Harry faces during the day. But at night it's even worse, because then he dreams of a single door in a silent corridor. And this door is somehow more terrifying than every other nightmare combined. In the richest installment yet of J.K. Rowling's seven-part story, Harry Potter confronts the unreliability of the very government of the magical world, and the impotence of the authorities at Hogwarts. Despite this (or perhaps because of it) Harry finds depth and strength in his friends, beyond what even he knew; boundless loyalty, and unbearable sacrifice. Though thick runs the plot (as well as the spine), readers will race through these pages, and leave Hogwarts, like Harry, wishing only for the next train back. From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Mon Apr 14 20:05:10 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 16:05:10 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's Birthday; SHIP (FITD) References: <036c01c302b3$686aff30$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> <198948827.20030414114259@earthlink.net> <03d401c302b9$f218c220$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: <06b201c302c1$276e0050$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55336 I think JKR put it best when she said: "Chris [Columbus] has kind of foreshadowed in this second film what I don't do until the 4th book, which is, you get hints of certain feelings between the three of them......that belong to a slightly more mature person." So basically she acknowledged that the 4th book is "foreshadowing" (NOT HINTING) towards Hr/R and acknowledges that Columbus hinted at it in the 2nd film...both of which I picked up on. Why would she foreshadow something that was not going to come to pass? ~Katy~ Live in the southeast USA? Join the new HP4GU-Southeast-US regional group! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP4GU-Southeast-US/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com Mon Apr 14 22:24:40 2003 From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 15:24:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hermione's Birthday; SHIP (FITD) In-Reply-To: <06b201c302c1$276e0050$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> Message-ID: <20030414222440.66041.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55337 Penny to Susanne, in part: > No, FITD is not a certainty. But, > it sure seems she passed up a golden > opportunity to shoot down H/H (or at > least solidify R/H), IMHO. So, Penny, can you actually give a good reason for JKR to shoot down ANY ship? She's surely not 'Dread Pirate Rowling.' ;) JKR is a spinner of tales, strictly speaking not merely a reporter of events. Why would she delineate with clarity and finality the eventual fate of characters in a story that she has yet to finish? I would be very disappointed in historians or journalists or scientists or judges/jury/ lawyers or writers of users' manuals or authors of how-to's (especially if there's one entitled "Romance for Dummies") who pass up golden opportunities to shoot down erroneous assumptions. I would be *appalled* if a writer of narrative DIDN'T sidestep verbal traps that would have him/her reveal future plot points out of context. Isn't the untimely revelation of pertinent information in regards to either character or plot development a defining feature of that which we call spoilers? *Of course* JKR could shoot down any variety of predictions about the future of WW and its various denizens...but...where is the 'foreplay' in THAT? Surely you would not want the future books to be anti- 'climactic'? Because that is what they would be if all narrative strands are tied up neatly while only 57% into the whole story. Indulge me in my redundancy...so Penny, *can* you actually articulate for our edification a good reason that could compel JKR at this point in time to shoot down the ships that will not make it out of the docks? And would you support her doing so if it means that she's gonna sink your battleSHIP? Katy, in part: > So basically she acknowledged that > the 4th book is "foreshadowing" (NOT > HINTING) towards Hr/R and acknowledges > that Columbus hinted at it in the > 2nd film...both of which I picked up > on. Why would she foreshadow something > that was not going to come to pass? Ah but in JKR's books how do you tell the foreshadowing from the red herrings? The only difference between foreshadowing and red herring is that the former is accurate and the latter is misleading. Which is to say that until the big reveal, a good mystery leaves the readers utterly unable to tell which is which. See, I think *we* are the drowsy dragon being tickled... Petra, dons life preserver but boards no ship a n ;) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com From metslvr19 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 15 00:01:31 2003 From: metslvr19 at yahoo.com (Laura) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 00:01:31 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Death Eaters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55338 Badger wrote: > > > The impression I got at first was the DE to whom Lord V referred and indicated would be killed would be Karkaroff for his snitching to get out of Azkaban, and his fleeing when the Black Mark reappeared. I've glanced at the passage again and it does imply Snape is the one Lord V **believes** may have left him forever. > > > Gina replied: > > > There is a very interesting scene in GoF (The Egg and the Eye) between Snape and Crouch-Moody "You know I'm hiding nothing, Moody," [Snape] said in a soft and dangerous voice, "as you've searched my office pretty thoroughly yourself." Moody's face twisted into a smile. "Auror's privilege, Snape. Dumbledore told me to keep an eye ---" "Dumbledore happens to trust me," said Snape through clenched teeth. "I refuse to believe that he gave you orders to search my office!" "Course Dumbledore trusts you," growled Moody. He's a trusting man, isn't he? Believes in second chances. But me-I say there are spots that don't come off, Snape. Spots that never come off, d'you know what I mean?" Snape clutches his arm (the dark mark of course) and then lets go of his arm "as though angry with himself." Now, what Snape doesn't know (and we don't know on first read) is that "Moody" is really Crouch Jr. working for Voldemort. Snape is there practically telling Voldemort himself that he is above reproach in Dumbledore's eyes. That he's no longer a death eater. And his body language expresses regret at the "spot" which can never come out. He is wearing his regret on his sleeve, as it were. Furthermore, Crouch-Moody has searched Snape's office and surely must be disappointed to find nothing suspicious. It further engenders doubts in Snape's loyalty to Voldemort. > > > Now me: "Snape is there practically telling Voldemort himself that he is above reproach in Dumbledore's eyes." Key words: "In Dumbledore's eyes." Assuming that Snape is really a spy for LV (and we don't know if he is, now do we?), he can claim to be protecting his powerful stance- surely if Moody (or, who he *thinks* is Moody) were to find out that Snape still favored LV, he [Moody] would forward this information to Dumbledore. Dumbledore would no longer trust Snape, which would be a huge loss to LV. Diverging a bit here, I'm slightly confused about Crouch-Moody's words here. Most of what he says seems to be perfect Auror thoughts that on a second read, make perfect sense with his true personality- "If there's one thing I hate, it's a DE who walked free." Goes both ways, doesn't it? However, the "spots that don't come off" line makes sense if Moody says it, but not if Crouch says it. Unless he's insinuating that he can never erase LV's memory of his history as a DE and therefore betrayal? i.e., "LV isn't going to forget that you USED to be a DE, even if you aren't now...and the fact that you no longer are means BIG trouble" While we're on the topic... Erin wrote: > > > And there possibly were secret trials. But Snape's was not one of them. "Snape has been cleared by this council," said Crouch distainfully. "He has been vouched for by Albus Dumbledore." "No!" shouted Karkaroff, straining at the chains that bound him to the chair. "I assure you! Severus Snape is a Death Eater!" Dumbledore had gotten to his feet. " I have given evidence already on this matter," he said calmly. "Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater. However, he rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk. He is now no more a Death Eater than I am." > > > I might mention that, as far as we can tell, Snape might well be a spy for either side. Or he could be spying for both sides and not give a you-know-what who "wins." I, for one, still don't completely trust Snape. Yes, we know that Dumbledore absolutely positively trusts him. And that's exactly why I don't. Think about it- Dumbledore is *always* right. He knows what's happened, what is happening, and he sometimes seems to know what will happen. He say through TMR during the COS issue 50 years ago, he knew when Harry had gone to the Weasley's house, he knew he had to keep the executioner in Hagrid's hut longer to allow Harry and Hermione more time to free Buckbeak. The guys knows EVERYTHING. So he has to be wrong sometime. It's sort of a mini-theory of mine...more of a suspicion, really. It's sort of bangy. Wrong! Dumbledore. And I'm not totally convinced that this isn't the time that he's wrong. Do I have canon to back this up? Nope. =) -Laura From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Tue Apr 15 00:18:49 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 00:18:49 -0000 Subject: broomsticks vs. flying carpets (was: It's all Lucius Malfoy's fault....) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55339 Wow ? so much going on with the Fudge discussions, but I just wanted to chime in here on this transportation topic. Replies to Steve and Patricia are in this post. Steve wrote: In fact, unlike usable carpets, magic brooms are absolutely worthless for sweeping. Brooms - make by wizards for wizards with no appliable muggle use. In fact, if a muggle found a flying broom, the only thing they could think of using it for would be kindling for the fireplace. END QUOTE. I reply: Well, on the first point, we don't know that. I mean, it's never stated in canon that a flying broom *couldn't* be used for sweeping. I don't think it's ever mentioned that they're even *not* used for sweeping. I do think it's reasonable to assume that a magical family wouldn't use an expensive broomstick for this purpose, but we don't know that they *couldn't* be used that way, and we don't know what muggles would do either. As for the carpet situation, let's see what canon says: --- "Ali Bashir's on the warpath. He wants a word with you about your embargo on flying carpets." "I sent him an owl about that just last week. If I've told him once I've told him a hundred times: Carpets are defined as a Muggle Artifact by the Registry of Proscribed Charmable Objects, but will he listen?" "I doubt it," said Mr. Crouch, accepting a cup from Percy. "He's desperate to export here." "Well, they'll never replace brooms in Britain, will they?" said Bagman. "Ali thinks there's a niche in the market for a family vehicle," said Mr. Crouch. "I remember my grandfather had an Axminster that could seat twelve ? but that was before carpets were banned, of course." (GoF, US paperback, Ch.7, 91) --- So, what we have is a situation where *Britain's* MoM has defined the flying carpet as a "Charmable Object," and that the carpet is not currently "proscribed" for that usage. I'd be willing to wager that somewhere else in the world, another country might have defined the broom the same way. We don't have any evidence to suggest that flying carpets are all created by charming a regular muggle carpet ? for instance, I wouldn't be surprised to discover that there were indeed companies/people that made carpets *expressly* for flying, along the same lines as the Nimbus/Firebolt. And what's to say that a flying carpet could even be used as a regular carpet? For all we know, after all, stepping on the thing could make it lift into the air, which would be most inconvenient for in-home usage, if you see what I mean. ;-) Patricia wrote: I've thought about this too. It's rather inconsistent, but I think the inconsistency is on the part of the MoM and the ww, not JKR. The ww seems a bit obsessed when it comes to Quidditch. I doubt anything could convince them to give up their flying brooms, which would essentially outlaw Quidditch, even if it would be in line with their general legal reasoning. Basically, I think the ww makes an exception for brooms because they want to keep playing Quidditch, not because the exception makes any sense. I reply: "Allowing the carpet" is not necessarily the same thing as "prohibiting brooms." Don't we have canon to suggest that Quidditch is played worldwide? If that's the case, then I'd bet that there are places in the world that do permit both carpets and brooms as legal methods of transportation. Anyways, I personally interpret this stuff as JKR's own little jab at economics ? sort of like the sticky way nations impose tariffs and restrictions on foreign goods ? not necessarily to comment on the nature, quality, or utility of the goods themselves, but to encourage domestic prosperity for domestic companies. Anyone think that there's some kind of lobby from the Nimbus/Firebolt people against the flying carpets? Now that'd be a laugh. ;-) Steve wrote: I base this on the fact that portkey are very convinient, but they are not used that often. Logically, there must be some reason why they are not used that often. My logic leads me to think that it is a long and difficult process; to long and difficult to make it practical. I also suspect, if there were a program them as you need them portkey story, the cost would be too expensive for everyday use. I reply: I don't think that we have any evidence to suggest that creating a Portkey is a tedious process ? after all, we know that Crouch!Moody was able to turn the Triwizard Cup into a Portkey during the trip from the Great Hall to the Quidditch Pitch prior to the Third Task. So, I don't think it could be *that* difficult. -Tom From devika at sas.upenn.edu Tue Apr 15 00:29:08 2003 From: devika at sas.upenn.edu (Devika) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 00:29:08 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Death Eaters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55340 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Laura" wrote: > > > I might mention that, as far as we can tell, Snape might well be a > spy for either side. Or he could be spying for both sides and not > give a you-know-what who "wins." I, for one, still don't completely > trust Snape. Yes, we know that Dumbledore absolutely positively > trusts him. > > And that's exactly why I don't. Think about it- Dumbledore is > *always* right. He knows what's happened, what is happening, and he > sometimes seems to know what will happen. He say through TMR during > the COS issue 50 years ago, he knew when Harry had gone to the > Weasley's house, he knew he had to keep the executioner in Hagrid's > hut longer to allow Harry and Hermione more time to free Buckbeak. > The guys knows EVERYTHING. > > So he has to be wrong sometime. It's sort of a mini-theory of > mine...more of a suspicion, really. It's sort of bangy. Wrong! > Dumbledore. > > And I'm not totally convinced that this isn't the time that he's > wrong. Do I have canon to back this up? > > Nope. =) > Dumbledore hasn't always been right. He wasn't right when he thought for twelve years that Sirius had been the Potters' Secret Keeper and had killed Peter Pettigrew. He wasn't right about Crouch!Moody for almost an entire year. It's true that he knows a whole lot, and what he doesn't know initially he does find out in the end. However, he's not *always* right about *everything*. I think that Dumbledore is right in trusting Snape, though. There seems to be some compelling and convincing reason for this, although we don't know what it is. In fact, the reason is so interesting that even Harry asked Dumbledore what it was. And this is *Harry,* who asks so few questions that many readers (myself included) are incredibly frustrated at his apparent lack of interest in so many interesting things (about his parents, for instance). A lot of the questions on our list of 50+ questions that we want answered are things that Harry could find out easily by asking someone like Sirius. But I digress. My point is that, although we don't know for sure, it seems as though Dumbledore has a very good reason for trusting Snape. And, considering Dumbledore's track record, I find it hard to believe that he can be wrong when he actually has some kind of hard evidence. Of course, like I said, there's no canon evidence to back this up either way. However, JKR did say somewhere that Harry would ask more questions in OoP. So the question remaining for us is this: can we wait 68 more days?? Devika :) From metslvr19 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 15 00:37:43 2003 From: metslvr19 at yahoo.com (Laura) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 00:37:43 -0000 Subject: Filch the Traitor/Neville In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55341 Sarah wrote: > > > I was thinking about JKR's statement the other day about how she included clues in Chamber of Secrets that would be important in later books, and it made me think of Harry's discovery of Filch the squib. Is it possible that one day Filch might make a bargain with Voldemort in exchange for magical abilities and sell Harry out? > > > Now me: OK, I'm going borderline TMTMNBN here. But I'm relatively certain that she said that these clues were included in the *movie* For some reason I was drawn to the petty, insignifacnt detail (because that's what we HP fans are trained to do) and had a feeling that one of these clues included in the movie was the Percy and Penelope bit. At one point Nearly-Headless Nick is heading towards the Great Hall and he tips his head at them (gross, I know) and says something to the effect of, "Evening, Percy. Miss Clearwater." So that's the end of my sensless rant. Now, although the "Filch the Squib" thing is in one of the (albeit deleted) scenes, I'm not sure it's quite too important. I know LV is quite powerful and all, but I highly doubt that it's possible to "make" someone become magic. On that note, yet totally off topic, I'm going to bring up Neville. >From canon, Neville doesn't seem incredibly magical at all. His best subject is "easily" Herbology, which, as far as I can tell, doesn't really consist of much magic. It's more like learning about the uses of various plants and doesn't seem to invlove the actually use of magic. But if we have this magic quill that writes down the names of magical children to accept them to Hogwarts, and Neville is at Hogwarts, then Neville *must* be magical. And he's not a squib, and probably not anything close to one, since no one else in the school seems as hopeless as he does. (note the word "seems:" I adore Neville.) Since the quill writes down names *when the children are born* this would certainly lead us to believe that Neville was *born* magical, even if (_insert name of device, memory charm, reverse memory charm, PTSD, ect here) *something* is blocking that magical power. Just felt the need to ramble on for 3 paragraphs about one tiny detail that can support about 10 different theories. =) -Laura From devika at sas.upenn.edu Tue Apr 15 00:47:06 2003 From: devika at sas.upenn.edu (Devika) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 00:47:06 -0000 Subject: broomsticks vs. flying carpets (was: It's all Lucius Malfoy's fault....) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55342 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall" wrote: > Steve wrote: > > In fact, unlike usable carpets, magic brooms are absolutely > worthless for sweeping. > > Brooms - make by wizards for wizards with no appliable > muggle use. In fact, if a muggle found a flying broom, > the only thing they could think of using it for would be > kindling for the fireplace. > END QUOTE. > > I reply: > Well, on the first point, we don't know that. I mean, > it's never stated in canon that a flying broom > *couldn't* be used for sweeping. Ron and Harry finding out that this is actually happening.> > > I don't think it's ever mentioned that they're even *not* used > for sweeping. I do think it's reasonable to assume that a > magical family wouldn't use an expensive broomstick for this > purpose, but we don't know that they *couldn't* be used that way, > and we don't know what muggles would do either. The following is from PoA, chapter 11, "The Firebolt:" [after Harry has shown Hermione the Firebolt:] "I don't think anyone should ride that broom just yet!" said Hermione shrilly. Harry and Ron looked at her. "What d'you think Harry's going to do with it--sweep the floor?" said Ron. That shows that although Ron was being sarcastic, he is at least aware of the possibility that brooms can be used for sweeping floors. Obviously, it would be a waste to use a perfectly good flying broom, especially a Firebolt, to sweep a floor, but at least it's possible. About carpets: Everyone has made some good points about magic carpets and whether they are or are not specially made for flying. I won't add to them. However, I just want to take this opportunity to say that I firmly believe that a flying carpet, legal or not, will make its appearance in OoP or later. There's just been too much mention of flying carpets for them never to be seen again. Devika From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Tue Apr 15 00:56:11 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 00:56:11 -0000 Subject: Filch the Traitor? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55343 I've suspected for a while that Filch would turn out to be the turncoat. After all, classical history teaches us that a seige never succeeds unless there's a traitor within the castle/city (exceptions being clever maneuvering by the enemy, ala Troy.) Taking that into account, Filch is an ominous possibility, because he has an extensive knowledge of the grounds and the secrets of Hogwarts that (I bet) rivals even Dumbledore's knowledge of the school. Sarah wrote: Is it possible that one day Filch might make a bargain with Voldemort in exchange for magical abilities and sell Harry out? I reply: I couldn't agree with you more - after all, Filch's 'squibbiness' is a plot item that has gone *nowhere* since we learned about it in CoS. In that sense, unless we find out that JKR has a use for that before book 7, (and I'm sure that it'll come up again, and that it's not meant for the GARBAGE SCOW) I think that Filch is the prime inside candidate for treachery. Now, whether or not such powers *can* be awarded, we don't yet know. That'd be some pretty powerful magic, to do that, though. What we do know is that Filch does seem to possess a rather vindictive personality. For instance, in CoS, when Mrs. Norris is petrified, we see: "My cat has been Petrified!" he shrieked, his eyes popping. "I want to see some *punishment!*" (CoS, US paperback, Ch.9, 144) And there was no punishment dealt out... giving Filch one possible grudge against Dumbledore. Another? Peeves. "...You've gone and stolen a Triwizard clue, Peeves... Dumbledore'll have you out of here for this, you filthy, pilfering poltergeist..." (GoF, US paperback, Ch.25, 468) and: "...it might be my chance to get him thrown out of the castle once and for all -" (GoF, US paperback, Ch.25, 470) Filch, we see repeatedly, doesn't just "not like" Peeves. He detests him. He *loathes* him. And he wants him removed, no doubts about that. I read this as an ongoing battle, not any kind of recent development. So, it's another case where Dumbledore isn't doing what Filch wants. And then, again and again we see Filch's anger towards the students that make his life harder, tracking mud and glop around the school, making messes in the dungeons that he has to clean, without the aid of magic. And to boot, we haven't heard any reason in canon thus far regarding what, if any, loyalty he has (or should have) to Dumbledore. Never mind how Mrs. Norris is connected to all of this... ;-) Yep - I think Filch is an excellent candidate for the position of "disgruntled, dissatisfied traitor, led away by false promises from the enemy." -Tom From grosich at nyc.rr.com Tue Apr 15 01:15:29 2003 From: grosich at nyc.rr.com (Gina Rosich) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 18:15:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: single parents in HP AND the Dursleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030415011529.15382.qmail@web13115.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55344 --- bluesqueak wrote: The Dursley's definitely do not have a healthy family structure. Vernon is a bully. Petunia smothers her natural son, and favours him over her foster son (though she is more caring towards Harry than Vernon is). Dudley displays many signs of being a deeply unhappy and disturbed child. Harry is the family 'scapegoat'. ME: I definitely agree that the Dursley's are a deeply troubled family. But, how exactly is Petunia more caring towards Harry than Vernon? Or at least, less uncaring? Because other than there being a personality difference, I don't see one as being any nicer or less nasty towards Harry than the other. Gina __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com From catlady at wicca.net Tue Apr 15 02:42:22 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 02:42:22 -0000 Subject: Golden Snitch / Marriage / HP and LV die together? /Portkeys / Seige Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55345 "Serena" wrote: << Of course they would loose, the only way they could win is if you have situation like GoF at World Cup where the opposing seeker decides to end the game even though it means his team will lose--And how often does that happen? >> It has been speculated in the past that since these matches are school matches, the school authorities might want to prevent matches which go on for months and keep students from their studies, so the Hogwarts Snitch might be especially enchanted to get easier to catch the longer the match goes on. If there were such a spell on the Snitch, after the match had gone on long enough, the Snitch might forcibly fly into the hand of the nearest Seeker, eve if he/she tried to avoid it. << I mean could a team even play without a seeker? >> "It must be possible, Captain: it happened." Eileen wrote: << I have to admit that I've always found it odd that people find it odd. Traditional societies don't have the same rate of separation /divorce or out-of-wedlock births as does modern society. That's a fact. >> That depends on WHICH traditional societies. In societies in which the married household was the economic unit on which people depended for their survival, people didn't get divorced. In the much less common traditional societies in which the matrilineal family was the economic unit -- a 'husband' moved in with his wife's family, but still owed filial duty of labor, shares of property, and so on, to his birth family -- divorce was easy and frequent, consisting of the husband packing up his clothes and moving back to his mother or moving in with his new wife, or of the wife's uncles and brothers 'persuading' the husband to move out. Don't accuse me of believing in primordial matriarchies -- men still have the power, but they're uncles instead of fathers. (I put primordial matriarchies into my fanfic in the spirit of JKR making fables that Muggles believe, such as witch's broomsticks, be actual truth in the wizarding world.) The relevance of this to the wizarding folk is that magic (I believe) makes economic survival very much easier, so medieval people with magic could have lived alone, and supported children as single parents, as 'easily' as modern people with technology. I believe that the absence of divorce in the Potterverse is part of the fairy-tale archetype of its genre rather than a piece of realism. Pip!Squeak wrote: << I have actually wondered whether we're going to find that marriage in the WW is one of those 'binding magical contracts'. (snip) Further, if marriage is a binding magical contract in the WW, then Tom Riddle Sr surely suffered for breaking it. >> I think I suggested something like that long ago, that part of the wizarding marriage ceremony is each spouse casting a conditional curse on himerself, that dreadful things will happen to himer if the marriage ends before death. In order to suggest that what TMR's mother died of, is she died of the contract being broken. However, Tom Sr would NOT suffer because he is not a magic person so any conditional curse that he cast on himself would be only words, not a spell. Listies protested loudly at a vow that puts the innocent spouse's life in the guilty spouse's hands. I thought about it for another year and decided that I believe that TMR's parents had never been married in the first place; that was a tale told to protect little Marvy-kins from knowing that he was a bastard. Rather than having deserted TMR's mother when he found out that she was a witch, Tom Sr had never known that she was a witch; he simply refused to marry her when she told him she was pregnant. I like the irony: if TMR had known the truth, he could have crusaded against premarital sex rather than against Muggles. Liz Martin wrote: << What if his powers transfered from himself to Harry leaving Volde with nothing and Harry with everything or at least most of his powers? >> I like to imagine that Harry got his Quidditch ability from Voldemort, the same as he got his Parselmouth. That would really distress Harry, if he found that the one ability he was proud of had come from Voldemort. << In turn making Harry his downfall. That possibly if he kills Harry that he will also die? >> I think that Voldemort and Harry got their lives bound together, so that the only way either one of them can die is if both of them die, but I think that happened when Voldemort used Harry's blood for his re-embodiment spell. That's my theory of the gleam in Dumbledore's eye: it appeared when Dumbledore heard that Voldemort had made himself mortal, possible to be killed, and was replaced by the weary look when he realised that it would involve Harry's death. I predict that Harry will grab onto Voldemort and push-pull him off the tallest tower at Hogwarts so that both are killed by the fall, and the last chapter will be Harry's funeral. Tom Wall wrote: << I don't think that we have any evidence to suggest that creating a Portkey is a tedious process -- after all, we know that Crouch!Moody was able to turn the Triwizard Cup into a Portkey during the trip from the Great Hall to the Quidditch Pitch prior to the Third Task. So, I don't think it could be *that* difficult. >> I am one of many who believe that the Triwizard Cup was already a Portkey, programmed to transport the first person who touched it to the maze's edge next to the judges' viewing stand, and Croody merely added an additional 'stop' before that stop. Why do that instead of turning, say, Harry's toothbrush into a Portkey and capturing him much earlier in the year? My answer: because normally one cannot Portkey at Hogwarts any more than one can Apparate at Hogwarts, but Dumbledore created an exception for this particular Portkey. Steve bboy_mn's answer: because Portkeys are so difficult or tedious to make that it is tremendously easier to re-program one that has already been made. Tom Wall wrote: << classical history teaches us that a seige never succeeds unless there's a traitor within the castle/city (exceptions being clever maneuvering by the enemy, ala Troy.) >> No. Starvation or running out of water will defeat the besieged city. So will disease, which might start on its own or be started by the besiegers hurling lague-stricken rat corpses over the city walls with their catapults. From pennylin at swbell.net Tue Apr 15 03:34:25 2003 From: pennylin at swbell.net (pennylin) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 22:34:25 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's Birthday; SHIP (FITD) References: <20030414222440.66041.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <054901c302ff$e9ff3b00$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 55346 Hi -- I said to Susanne, in part: > No, FITD is not a certainty. But, > it sure seems she passed up a golden > opportunity to shoot down H/H (or at > least solidify R/H), IMHO. Petra responded with: <<<>>>>>> I think you misunderstood, Petra. I wasn't saying that JKR *should* have shot down one of the ships. If you haven't been in the thick of all the shipping debates, you might not realize that one of the principal arguments of the R/H shippers is that JKR said, in one chat, "Harry and Hermione are platonic friends." She gave this answer to the question: "Do Harry and Hermione have a date?" I think that particular question and answer are GoF-specific. But, if the answer of "platonic" friends was meant to apply to the entire future for Harry and Hermione, then I imagine JKR would/could have used this particular interview on the CoS DVD to put that issue to rest once and for all. The R/H position is that JKR has indeed passed on H/H and shot down that ship long ago. However, If R/H is so obvious and if JKR's response of "they're platonic" is meant to apply to all time, I can't imagine why she would pass up this chance to solidify her earlier response. If, however, that chat is GoF-specific (or at least isn't all-encompassing for the rest of eternity), then I can certainly see why she would not want to divulge too much information or tie up any loose ends prematurely. Indeed, I can see that she would want her audience to wonder. <<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No ..... see above. I don't blame her in the least for holding her cards to her vest. In fact, I think she has done just that, which is why I don't believe the "they're just platonic" quote is as revealing as the R/H shippers argue it is. I think that particular quote has limited scope. And, I think this recent interview on the DVD trumps that "they are platonic" quote, because if the "they are platonic" quote was intended to be as broad as the R/H'ers would have us believe, then it's a no-brainer that JKR would have said, "certain feelings between...er.... two of the three." <<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>> LOL! Well, I'm not on a battleship, Petra. But, in any case, I'll admit I thought she *was* going to sink my ship there for a second. I could see where she was going to go with the whole "Chris foreshadowed" business, and I thought "Oh no, here we go." But, then, elation set in. No, I would prefer that she not sink my ship or anyone else's. I'd rather see this all play out in the books. Katy, in part: > So basically she acknowledged that > the 4th book is "foreshadowing" (NOT > HINTING) towards Hr/R and acknowledges > that Columbus hinted at it in the > 2nd film...both of which I picked up > on. Why would she foreshadow something > that was not going to come to pass? Petra: <<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>> *nods* Yep, I agree with Petra on this point. I think GoF foreshadows R-------->Hr and that it foreshadows Hr------------->Ha. Clearly, Katy would disagree and so would Chris Columbus. Remains to be seen how it all plays out, and I sincerely doubt it will all be resolved by the end of OoP in any case. Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Tue Apr 15 03:47:23 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 03:47:23 -0000 Subject: What If... Dumbledore had included Fudge in GoF Ch.35? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55347 Replies to Devika, Taryn, Aja_1991, susanbones2003, Gina, and Erin in this post. Devika wrote: Whether he heard the confession or not, Fudge would still dismiss it as the ravings of a lunatic. He is so determined not to believe that Voldemort has returned that no one, except maybe Voldemort himself, can convince him of this. Taryn wrote: Looking from this point of view, Fudge's denial is an almost instinctive reaction happening out of fear. It's an impossibility to his mind, so his mind chooses not to believe it. In such a case, it would take something extremely weighty to snap such strong denial, and Crouch's formal confession still might not have cut it. I reply: Agreed with both points ? Fudge might probably still have dismissed the confession, which is interesting, because it seems that there's some discrepancy with the Veritaserum, i.e. someone under its influence might reveal "what they believe is the truth" vs. "what actually is the truth." I hadn't really thought of it that way before. I also concur that Fudge is reacting out of fear, which IMO is extremely understandable. However, I think that the fear is natural, and that if he was properly in-the-know, as Dumbledore is, then the fear might have been reduced enough to have made this situation less perilous for the good guys. Several things on this ? one, Dumbledore might very well have prevented the dementor from administering the kiss of death in the first place. This is an action that I don't think McGonagall or Snape would have the guts to take, but that I think Dumbledore would be willing to attempt. So, if that's the case, then Crouch, Jr. would still be around to testify ? in other words, whether Fudge dismisses his testimony or not wouldn't affect the fact that Barty'd still be around to confess for others to hear... and if any fair kind of trial system is still in effect, then his fate, and his testimony, would be (or at least, would have the potential to be) evaluated by more people than just Fudge. Second (and something that I forgot about earlier,) there is the interesting case of Barty Crouch, Sr. showing up on the Hogwarts grounds in a deranged state of mind. Naturally, he vanished before anyone could question him, but it means that at minimum, Krum and Harry saw him and heard him, and when combined with his son's situation, could swing the case a little further towards the truth as we know it. And third, Dumbledore registers that the death of Frank Bryce is significant, but admits that "the Ministry, I regret to say, [does] not consider of any importance, for it concerns a Muggle." (GoF, US paperback, Ch.30, 601) But when added to the other points (as we the readership, like Dumbledore and Harry know) it definitely adds to the case. A case that Fudge can't understand because he doesn't know all of the background. So, what I'm proposing here is, again, that if Fudge had *all* of the information that Dumbledore had (and again, I also mean the information that Albus has kept hush-hush concerning Harry's Parselmouth status, he fits, pains, and visions,) and not just a fraction of it, then he might have reacted differently to this whole situation. And having the information isn't enough - because he does get a lot of it, but he gets it from, of all people, Rita Skeeter. That's not the way a public official should be finding out this sort of stuff. He should have known already. Aja_1991 wrote: While Riddle/Voldemort does seem to have a penchant for overlooking or not knowing details (phoenix tears, "brother wands"), he does seem to be rather patient in letting his plans come about. I reply: I couldn't agree more ? and think that this outlines a major difference in the strategies that Voldemort and Dumbledore have regarding this situation: Voldemort = patience. Dumbledore = `time is of the essence.' And to me, this implies that mistakes made by Voldemort will be, as you suggested, a matter of oversight. Whereas mistakes made by the good guys are more likely to be induced by pressure to act, and possibly haste as well. IMO, of course. Susanbones2003 wrote; Is all this "What if"ing meant to cast suspicion on Dumbledore's motives? If so, then I think it is wrong-headed. I reply: Oh, I wasn't trying to cast a shadow on Dumbledore's motives, which I think we could say are IMO objectively pure and in the right. I'm suggesting that his actions are partially the cause for the present situation that the good guys are facing right now. Susanbones2003 wrote: I believe that Dumbledore expected Fudge to question Crouch Jr. and hear all the things he, Harry, Snape and McGonagall heard. Thus he'd have been included. It demonstrates Fudge's extreme limitations (and I agree with Taryn also, his link to the DE's in some way) that he chose to bring a dementor despite McGonagall's objections and that he chose to allow the dementor to administer the kiss before hearing the complete testimony and letting whatever form of WW justice exists to take its course. The whole thing is fishy and fishy for a reason. This is meant to show us a side of Fudge and to cover up some important information. I reply: I agree that we're seeing some of Fudge's limitations, and I also agree that Dumbledore expected Fudge to question BCJ himself. What I don't agree with is that Fudge ordered the dementor to administer the kiss of death. There's no canon to support that, except McGonagall's exclamation claiming "The Minister has seen to that!" (GoF, US paperback, Ch.36, 702) And even she could simply be referring to the dementor's presence, not any order from Fudge directly. There's no evidence that Fudge ordered the dementor to do suck out BCJ's soul. For all we know, the dementors are under a standing order to administer the kiss to any admitted Death Eaters or wanted criminals, both of which categories include Crouch, Jr. We have seen this in PoA with Sirius Black, where the dementors were ordered to perform the kiss on him as soon as they found him, with no need to defer to a wizard or Ministry official. Fudge, being the distractable, blustery guy we read about, could very well have been standing behind the dementor when it entered the room ? or it could have acted more quickly than he could react. As far as the dementor might be concerned, "this is an escaped criminal from Azkaban, and kiss of death is how we deal with this, as we learn from Sirius' escape" might have been all that the creature needed. And we don't know how long the kiss takes... it could be a snappy procedure. Fudge, of course, never confirms that he ordered the dementor to act that way ? all he confirms is that he maintained the right to have the creature accompany him. We *do* know that McGonagall says "The moment that ? that thing entered the room... it swooped down on Crouch and ? and" (GoF, US paperback, Ch.36, 703) And the other thing that he does is insist, several times, on his status as Minister of Magic ? in other words, he does not want to be questioned (whether or not that's appropriate is a different subject entirely,) and I believe that this situation greatly inflames his temper because he's being questioned from all sides. In fact, rereading GoF Ch.36, "The Parting of the Ways," we can note that Fudge is criticized by McGonagall outside (who has the nerve to say to the Minister "You should never have brought it inside the castle!... When Dumbledore finds out..." (GoF, US paperback, Ch.36, 702) the hospital wing, then by Molly Dumbledore, Snape and Harry inside the wing. Even Sirius growls at him. In other words, in a sense, Fudge is being assaulted verbally from all directions. Speaking from personal experience here, this is `rat in the corner' syndrome, and when I'm being attacked from all sides, I get defensive and rather irritable, rather similarly to Fudge in this situation. Even if I'm wrong, I'm less likely to acquiesce under circumstances such as those. Gina wrote: Which is why Fudge's denial became all that more frustrating when Snape dramatically showed him the dark mark as definitive proof. I mean, how could Fudge argue with THAT kind of evidence? But he did still disbelieve. Which is why I agree that it wouldn't have made a difference if he was there when Crouch was under the veritaserum or not. I reply: What we do know about Fudge's reaction to the Dark Mark on Snape's arm is that he "recoiled." (GoF, US paperback, Ch.36, 709) Following that reaction, Snape explains the mark: "Every Death Eater had this sign burned into him by the Dark Lord. It was a means of distinguishing one another, and his means of summoning us to him." (GoF, US paperback, Ch.36, 710) And JKR describes Fudge's reaction thusly: "Fudge stepped back from Snape too. He was shaking his head. He did not seem to have taken in a word that Snape had said. He stared, apparently repelled by the ugly mark on Snape's arm, then looked up at Dumbledore and whispered..." (GoF, US paperback, Ch.36, 710) So, I gathered a few things from this exchange. One, Fudge (unlike Dumbledore, who admits that he knew about the Dark Mark 'tattoo' in GoF, Ch.30, "The Pensieve") did not know that the Death Eaters had received this mark. Otherwise, Snape wouldn't have to explain. Two, the mark is a famous symbol, so he does know *what* it is, but he doesn't know *why* it's there, and having heard about this for the very first time, I'm not surprised that he is so taken aback. That's shocking news. Three, if he *had* known about these things (as Dumbledore did) then perhaps he wouldn't have replied "I don't know what you and your staff are playing at, Dumbledore, but I've had enough." (GoF, US paperback, Ch.36, 710) Clearly, he is very upset by all of this new and freaky information. If he'd known earlier, then this would be easier to digest, because he'd have been prepared. And it would also have been yet more proof that Voldemort was back. But again, since Fudge is in the dark on the Dark Mark, he's not in the position to simply accept Snape's word... he's being told another ridiculous tale that contradicts what he knows, and as he points out, this is becoming a pattern. Erin wrote: Probably the reason Fudge was not with them when they originally questioned them was that he was with Cedric Diggory's parents. I reply: We don't know where Fudge was precisely on the grounds, but we do know that he wasn't with the Diggorys. Professor Sprout was with the Diggorys. Dumbledore had an idea where Fudge was, because he tells Snape to "Then go down into the grounds, find Cornelius Fudge, and bring him up to this office." (GoF, US paperback, Ch.36, 692) So if Fudge was on the grounds, then he wasn't with the Diggorys and Professor Sprout. And if Dumbledore knew where he was, then why not bring him up? Tactical error. Someone suggested (I can't seem to find the post right now) that this begs the question of whether or not Dumbledore even trusts Fudge, which I think is an excellent question. Given all of this, I'd have to say that he doesn't, or at least (since we don't know what the two have shared offscreen) he doesn't fully trust Fudge. This is my point exactly. Given that he doesn't seem to trust Fudge, that doesn't change the fact that his lack of trust is partially to blame for creating the current circumstances... I firmly believe that a more-informed Fudge would not have reacted the way he did in GoF Ch.36... even if he was still suspicious, he would have been far less extreme had he known what Dumbledore knows. With a little more trust for Fudge on Dumbledore's part, perhaps we'd see our heroes prepping for battle with the aid of the Ministry, instead of behind its back, which, I think we can all agree, is the worst and far more perilous of the two options. -Tom From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Tue Apr 15 03:53:32 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 03:53:32 -0000 Subject: What ends a seige (WAS Re: Golden Snitch / Marriage / HP and LV die together? / In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55348 I wrote previously: classical history teaches us that a seige never succeeds unless there's a traitor within the castle/city (exceptions being clever maneuvering by the enemy, ala Troy.) Catlady replied: No. Starvation or running out of water will defeat the besieged city. So will disease, which might start on its own or be started by the besiegers hurling lague-stricken rat corpses over the city walls with their catapults. I reply: Agreed. The way I learned it, it's these things that ferment the situation and cause a person to betray the city. I don't know of a recorded situation where the city agreed to defeat collectively (for instance, 'cause they all wanted food.) In cases where disease/food/water are at stake, in my understanding, it either a lone individual or group inside who decided that, whether for lack of food or water, disagreement with the city's leadership, a secret alliance with the enemy, or some other reason, they would take it onto themselves to help the enemy win so that they could get/accomplish those things. I think that we're in agreement, just working from slightly different perspectives. ;-) -Tom From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Apr 15 07:04:11 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 07:04:11 -0000 Subject: broomsticks vs. flying carpets (was: It's all Lucius Malfoy's fault....) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55349 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall" wrote: > Wow ? so much going on with the Fudge discussions, but > I just wanted to chime in here on this transportation > topic. > > Replies to Steve and Patricia are in this post. > > > Steve wrote: > > In fact, unlike usable carpets, magic brooms are absolutely > worthless for sweeping. > > > I (Tom) reply: > Well, on the first point, we don't know that. I mean, > it's never stated in canon that a flying broom > *couldn't* be used for sweeping. Ron and Harry finding out that this is actually happening.> > bboy_mn: The sweep of a flying broom is made out of twigs. I believe the Firebolt has an Ash handle and Birch twig sweep. You might be able to move around clods or chunks of dirt, but for anything as as fine as dust or common household dirt, it truly would be worthless. It would be more like a very very fine rake than anything anyone would consider a functional broom. To a Muggle who has seen real world functional sweeping brooms, a flying broom would certainly seem very broom like, but I just can't see any Muggle looking at a sweep that coarse and seeing any function beyond kindling. As far as wizards, we don't have the exact price of a broom but the Firebold cost hundreds of Galleons (G100=+$800); 'hundreds' would safely imply $2,000 to $4,000 for a broom. Suprisingly cheap for transportation, but way way way too expensive to ever consider using as a real broom. > Tom continues: > > As for the carpet situation, let's see what canon says: > --- > "Ali Bashir's on the warpath. He wants a word with you > about your embargo on flying carpets." > > > > "... Carpets are defined as a Muggle Artifact by the Registry of > Proscribed Charmable Objects, but will he listen?" > ...edited... > --- > > ...edited... > > We don't have any evidence to suggest that flying > carpets are all created by charming a regular muggle > carpet ? for instance, I wouldn't be surprised to > discover that there were indeed companies/people that > made carpets *expressly* for flying, along the same > lines as the Nimbus/Firebolt. And what's to say that a > flying carpet could even be used as a regular carpet? > For all we know, after all, stepping on the thing > could make it lift into the air, which would be most > inconvenient for in-home usage, if you see what I > mean. ;-) > bboy_mn: " For all we know, after all, stepping on the thing could make it lift into the air... " Precisely why they are banded as a charmable object, someone would look at them and see a carpet, and step on it. But if someone mistood a flying broom for a really crappy sweeping broom and tried to sweep with it, there probably wouldn't be any ill effects. A flying broom held in a sweeping position would not be likely to take off flying. Carpet manufacturing - even if a wizard manufactures a carpet as a flying carpet, he must indeed first make a carpet. Muggle made or wizard made, it is still a carpet. A broom on the other hand, is constructed for balance, comfort, and aerodynamics rather than functional sweeping ability. Any Muggle who looked at a flying broom, would see a really crappy sweeping broom worth nothing beyond the wood it was made from. > Tom continues: > > Steve wrote: > I base this on the fact that portkey are very > convinient, but they are not used that often. [My two stage process theory] > > I reply: > I don't think that we have any evidence to suggest > that creating a Portkey is a tedious process ? after > all, we know that Crouch!Moody was able to turn the > Triwizard Cup into a Portkey during the trip from the > Great Hall to the Quidditch Pitch prior to the Third > Task. So, I don't think it could be *that* difficult. > > > -Tom bboy_mn: There is a large legion of people who believe that the Tri-Wizard's Cup was already a portkey which is why it was able to take Harry back to Hogwarts without being reprogrammed. The theory goes that fake!Moody only inserted a stop. Recently someone expanded the theory by saying that with a portkey the last destination placed on it, is the first destination reached. Moody put the Cemetery destination on top of the 'outside the maze' destination. When Harry touched it, he used the Cemetery destination, leaving the remaining 'outside the maze' destination active and ready to use. Last on - first off. There is also the possibility that, in anticipation of the third task, Moody had much earlier started the process of making the cup ABLE to accept a portkey function and destination, then on the day of third task, added the destination as he carried it in. Logically why would anyone choose Floo powder over a portkey? You have to buy or make Floo powder, but you can take any old piece of junk and make it into a portkey. Why even risk the danger of apparating when any and all wizards could charm their shoes into portkeys and travel anywhere they wanted to go? The fact that Portkeys aren't the primary means of travel in the wizard world tells me that there has to be a reason why people don't use them all the time. Based on all that reasoning, the only logical thing I can come up with is that it is a lot more difficult than it seems. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From drednort at alphalink.com.au Tue Apr 15 07:25:00 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 17:25:00 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: broomsticks vs. flying carpets (was: It's all Lucius Malfoy's fault....) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3E9C406C.11586.43E4F0@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 55350 On 15 Apr 2003 at 7:04, Steve wrote: > As far as wizards, we don't have the exact price of a broom but the > Firebold cost hundreds of Galleons (G100=+$800); 'hundreds' would > safely imply $2,000 to $4,000 for a broom. Suprisingly cheap for > transportation, but way way way too expensive to ever consider using > as a real broom. Yes, but I would have thought also too expensive to use as an instrument of physical punishment - and Molly Weasley seems to have done that - I'm sure she hadn't spent anywhere near as much on a broom but it does point to the fact that some people might not exactly be gentle with the things. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "Almighty Ruler of the all; Whose power extends to great and small; Who guides the stars with steadfast law; Whose least creation fills with awe; Oh grant thy mercy and thy grace; To those who venture into space." From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com Tue Apr 15 09:10:45 2003 From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 02:10:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hermione's Birthday; SHIP (FITD) In-Reply-To: <054901c302ff$e9ff3b00$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: <20030415091045.22284.qmail@web21104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55351 Penny to Susanne, in part: > No, FITD is not a certainty. But, > it sure seems she passed up a golden > opportunity to shoot down H/H (or at > least solidify R/H), IMHO. Yours truly: > So, Penny, can you actually give a > good reason for JKR to shoot down > ANY ship? She's surely not 'Dread > Pirate Rowling.' ;) > > JKR is a spinner of tales, strictly > speaking not merely a reporter of > events. Why would she delineate with > clarity and finality the eventual > fate of characters in a story that > she has yet to finish? Penny: > I think you misunderstood, Petra. I > wasn't saying that JKR *should* have > shot down one of the ships. If you > haven't been in the thick of all the > shipping debates, you might not > realize that one of the principal > arguments of the R/H shippers is that > JKR said, in one chat, "Harry and > Hermione are platonic friends." She > gave this answer to the question: > "Do Harry and Hermione have a date?" > I think that particular question > and answer are GoF-specific. But, > if the answer of "platonic" friends > was meant to apply to the entire > future for Harry and Hermione, then I > imagine JKR would/could have used > this particular interview on the CoS > DVD to put that issue to rest once > and for all. My question still stands: what I don't understand (in contrast to misunderstand) is the assertion that JKR *should* or want to put ANY issue to rest once and for all...with 43% of the whole still to come. Penny: > The R/H position is that > JKR has indeed passed on H/H and shot > down that ship long ago. See, my question applies to this supposition too: why would JKR pass on any ship at this point in time? Penny: > However, If R/H is so obvious and if > JKR's response of "they're platonic" is > meant to apply to all time... But why would JKR drop spoilers in this manner? Penny: > ...I can't imagine why she would pass up > this chance to solidify her earlier response. Because JKR is not building a case for or against H/Hr or R/H. ( That'd be the shippers' job.) Solidifying any position would be counterproductive for her purposes. Though teasing fans into utter frenzy through the withholding of the satisfaction of curiosity would be reprehensible on the part of educators and the like, it is arguably the most powerful tool of a storyteller. Just think of how Scheherazade bought herself a thousand and one nights. To solidify ANY response at this time would be to PREMATURELY satisfy our curiosity. Penny: > If, however, that chat is GoF-specific > (or at least isn't all-encompassing > for the rest of eternity), then I can > certainly see why she would not want > to divulge too much information or > tie up any loose ends prematurely. > Indeed, I can see that she would want > her audience to wonder. JKR would want her audience to wonder *regardless* of any shipping concerns. Yours truly: > Indulge me in my redundancy...so Penny, *can* > you actually articulate for our edification a > good reason that could compel JKR at this > point in time to shoot down the ships that > will not make it out of the docks? Penny: > No ..... see above. I don't blame > her in the least for holding her cards > to her vest. In fact, I think she > has done just that, which is why I > don't believe the "they're just > platonic" quote is as revealing as the > R/H shippers argue it is. Neither do I but for reasons that compel ME to find anti-R/H arguments just as unconvincing. Penny: > I think that particular quote has limited > scope. And, I think this recent > interview on the DVD trumps that "they > are platonic" quote, because if the > "they are platonic" quote was intended to > be as broad as the R/H'ers would have us > believe, then it's a no-brainer that JKR > would have said, "certain feelings between > ...er....two of the three." I beg to differ: JKR would and should be as vague as she possibly can. Unlike instructions and directions, fiction does not seek to explain it all as quickly as possible. Foreplay. Is. Key. How else do you get one helluva stormy climax? Yours truly: > And would you support her doing so if it means > that she's gonna sink your battleSHIP? Penny: > LOL! Well, I'm not on a battleship, Petra. Check your lapels and epaulettes, m'dear. Penny: > But, in any case, I'll admit I thought she > *was* going to sink my ship there for a > second. I could see where she was going to > go with the whole "Chris foreshadowed" > business, and I thought "Oh no, here we go." > But, then, elation set in. > > No, I would prefer that she not sink my ship > or anyone else's. I'd rather see this all > play out in the books. "Chris foreshadowed"? Katy, in part: > So basically she acknowledged that > the 4th book is "foreshadowing" (NOT > HINTING) towards Hr/R and acknowledges > that Columbus hinted at it in the > 2nd film...both of which I picked up > on. Why would she foreshadow something > that was not going to come to pass? Yours truly: > Ah but in JKR's books how do you tell > the foreshadowing from the red herrings? > The only difference between foreshadowing > and red herring is that the former is > accurate and the latter is misleading. > Which is to say that until the big reveal, > a good mystery leaves the readers utterly > unable to tell which is which. Penny: > *nods* Yep, I agree with Petra on this > point. Oh I wouldn't agree with me if I were you. I consider most of the anti-R/H arguments to be just as dubious as most of the anti-H/Hr arguments. Note that what I said above in reply to Katy applies not only to R/H; it applies to H/Hr too...and this: What one ship read as foreshadowing is read as red herring by the other ships. Petra: "Even tempests in teapots can wreck ships." a n :) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From heidit at netbox.com Tue Apr 15 10:02:42 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (heidit at netbox.com) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 06:02:42 EDT Subject: The JKR interview on the DVD: SHIP (FITD) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55352 In a message dated 4/15/2003 5:12:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com writes: Petra Pan wrote: > > To solidify ANY response at this time would > be to PREMATURELY satisfy our curiosity. > > JKR would want her audience to wonder > *regardless* of any shipping concerns. > > Penny: > >No ..... see above. I don't blame > >her in the least for holding her cards > >to her vest. In fact, I think she > >has done just that, which is why I > >don't believe the "they're just > >platonic" quote is as revealing as the > >R/H shippers argue it is. > > Neither do I but for reasons that compel ME > to find anti-R/H arguments just as unconvincing. I agree with Petra throughout this, and with Penny in the last. I think that part of the dynamic here might be that there are certain people on certain ships (including but not limited to R/Hr) who think that their ship is more than suggested in canon - they think it *is* canon. For those who simply feel that canon, and JKR's interviews, support the idea of an R/Hr ship later in the stories, this interview shouldn't really have much of an effect, imho. But for those who believe that in early 2000, JKR made it clear to everyone that there would never be any H/Hr romance, this interview should be a bit of an issue/bone of consternation (unless you read it as "Ron is interested in Hermione and Hermione is interested in Ron and Harry is also interested in Ron..."). Heidi [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From noybycb at yahoo.ca Tue Apr 15 02:05:24 2003 From: noybycb at yahoo.ca (Alia) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 02:05:24 -0000 Subject: Trusting Snape, betrayal and the motives of Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55353 Devika wrote: > I think that Dumbledore is right in trusting Snape, though. I agree, for what it's worth. I think Dumbledore has *very good* reason to trust Severus completely. I hope we will find out what it is by the end of the canon series. I do believe that Severus truly is on their side and may well die for his found loyalty - it might be him seeking penance, redemption... I'm not sure. >There > seems to be some compelling and convincing reason for this, although > we don't know what it is. In fact, the reason is so interesting that > even Harry asked Dumbledore what it was. And this is *Harry,* who > asks so few questions that many readers (myself included) are > incredibly frustrated at his apparent lack of interest in so many > interesting things (about his parents, for instance). A lot of the > questions on our list of 50+ questions that we want answered are > things that Harry could find out easily by asking someone like > Sirius. I think that it's taken Harry this long in the magical world where he has experienced some happiness - some sense of control over his own life - some sense that he might just be as valuable as a human being as those around him to learn *how* to allow himself to be truly curious, much less actually ask an authority figure for help or information. Remember, he didn't have that with the Dursleys. In PS doesn't he say that the most important lesson he learned early on with the Dursleys was 'Ask no questions'...? Those budding beliefs may well be shaken by the events ending in the rise of Voldie. A teacher he'd allowed himself to trust betrayed him... a guest student (Krum) seemed to have done the same during the event... his best friend - his first ever friend betrayed him earlier in the year... Fudge betrayed him... In a way Dumbledore betrayed him by not recognising that his friend Moody wasn't Moody... In a way Sirius betrayed him by not being able to stay... He's never experienced anything in his life before Hogwarts and since his parents deaths that gave him any reason to trust *any* authority figures. And see what happens when he starts to overcome this training - Dumbledore won't tell him the answers that, if anyone deserves to know it's Harry (when he refuses to answer Harry's questions at the end of PS) and worse, all the betrayals mentioned above that occured in his fourth year. But I digress. My point is that, although we don't know for > sure, it seems as though Dumbledore has a very good reason for > trusting Snape. And, considering Dumbledore's track record, I find > it hard to believe that he can be wrong when he actually has some > kind of hard evidence. > > Of course, like I said, there's no canon evidence to back this up > either way. However, JKR did say somewhere that Harry would ask more > questions in OoP. So the question remaining for us is this: can we > wait 68 more days?? > Yes, and didn't I read somewhere that JKR has said that one of the things Harry has yet to understand is that Dumbledore *isn't* perfect. But how...? Dumbledore seems too aware of what else is going on in the castle to have missed Moody being a fraud, the owl leading him away in PS as being fake, or any of the other things you'd think he should have known about... Is he setting Harry up? Not because he want's him hurt or killed - not because he's evil... but maybe he's trying to 'toughen' Harry up a bit, magically... carefully guide him into these situations so he'll be ready for the final showdown with Voldie...? Just an odd set of thoughts from a newbie to your list. Humbly offered, Alia From mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com Tue Apr 15 07:44:40 2003 From: mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com (mlle_bienvenu) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 07:44:40 -0000 Subject: nine and three quarters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55354 Erin Wrote: > I think you need to forget the "quarters" part and focus on > the "nine and three". Nine and three add up to twelve. And I am > surely not the only one who has noticed JKR's... fondness.... for the > number 12.... > Now Me: I don't think you need to forget the three/quarters. After all, what is three times four but Twelve? So what you have is two twelves linked by a three (they 'share' the three. So you have nine plus three, and three times four. Interestingly three is also mythologically linked to time: the three Fates, the Three Norns, past, present, future...)and what is two twelves? Twenty-four. It seems time is a theme in the Harry Potter Series. Not only in obvious cases, like the time-turner, but the past plays a much more significant roll than in most children's literature. Also the future comes into play through divination, and I'm sure Trelawney's prediction will become significant in later books. Another interesting aspect of three/quarters is that, if you put it in decimal form, it would be .75. What is seven plus five? Twelve. I know I'm stretching the twelve connection here, but I just love number games (even though I am generally poor at maths.) Mlle Bienvenu From jmd at jvf.co.uk Tue Apr 15 12:40:48 2003 From: jmd at jvf.co.uk (Jeremy Davis) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 13:40:48 +0100 Subject: Hagrid in Knockturn Alley References: Message-ID: <000701c3034c$3dd6c8f0$0e010001@jmd2000> No: HPFGUIDX 55355 JKR has said in the past (dunno where or when!!) that there are some significant happenings in COS. I'm just wondering what peoples views are on the reason why Hagrid was in Knockturn Alley when Harry miss-dialed with his floo power. Hagrid said he was looking for the "Flesh Eating Slug Repellant". Is he telling the whole truth? From yutu at wanadoo.es Tue Apr 15 12:01:06 2003 From: yutu at wanadoo.es (izaskun granda) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 14:01:06 +0200 Subject: Fw: [HPforGrownups] Re: Filch the Traitor? Message-ID: <000401c30353$13a7aa70$dc806750@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 55356 Erica wrote: I get the impression that Dumbledore offered Filch 'a place' in the wizarding community where everyone else had shunned him (same as Dunbledore did for werewolf!Lupin, ideas_beyond_his_station!Dobby, etc) ME: Dumbledore didn't offer Filch 'a place' in the wizarding community. He was already there before Dumbledore became Headmaster. How do I know? Well, because he says that he misses the old days when detentions took place in the dungeons, they hang students by their thumbs of something of the sort. But all that ended when Dumbledore became Headmaster. So... maybe he's not so fond of Dumbledore after all. He's a very nasty person. Izaskun Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From yutu at wanadoo.es Tue Apr 15 11:58:32 2003 From: yutu at wanadoo.es (izaskun granda) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 13:58:32 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What If... Dumbledore had included Fudge in GoF Ch.35? References: Message-ID: <000301c30353$12361910$dc806750@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 55357 Tom Wall wrote: "Several things on this - one, Dumbledore might very well have prevented the dementor from administering the kiss of death in the first place. This is an action that I don't think McGonagall or Snape would have the guts to take, but that I think Dumbledore would be willing to attempt." And I ask: I have a question about all this. I was rereading GoF the other day and something struck me as funny. Where is Dumbledore when Fudge arrives with the Dementor?. He tells Snape: "... go down the grounds, find Cornelius Fudge , and bring him up to this office. He will undoubtedly want to question Crouch himself. Tell him I will be in the hospital wing in half an hour's time if he needs me" After this he goes to his office with Harry, meets Sirius there, hears Harry account of the facts, takes Harry and Sirius to the hospital wing and leaves. So, where does he go? What does he do while Harry sleeps in the hospital wing and the dementor gives Crouch the kiss? They seem to think he's in the hospital wing with Harry. "Where's Dumbledore?" Fudge demanded of Mrs Weasley. "He's not here" said Mrs. Weasley angrily. "This is a hospital wing...." Any theories??? "izaskun granda" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From erinellii at yahoo.com Mon Apr 14 20:57:00 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 20:57:00 -0000 Subject: Magic Dishwasher? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55358 Hi, I'm fairly new here, and I've posted a few times, but I've mainly been trying to read backposts and get a hold on all the different theories. So far, Imperioed! Arthur is the only ship I'm willing to set foot on. I think I've got a handle on most of the ideas, but Magic Dishwasher continues to elude me, though I find references to it everywhere. Does anyone have the # of a post where it is spelled out? And also, is there an acronym for an Evil! Bill? I doubt you could find enough canon wood for a whole ship, but it might be worth at least a rowboat. Erin From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 15 14:37:15 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 14:37:15 -0000 Subject: The Motivations of Fudge and Dumbledore (WAS:Fudge: DE or not?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55359 Tom Wall wrote: > At any rate, if Fudge believes that he's the best man for the job, > then he'd also believe that it was best for him to stay in power. > I think that JKR's doing more than create another > stereotypical politician in Fudge - I think she's showing us > that even the good guys make mistakes that have consequences. Now me: I'm not so sure that Fudge believes he's the best man for the job. In PS, Ch. 5, Hagrid tells Harry "They wanted Dumbledore fer Minister, o'course, but he'd never leave Hogwarts, so old Cornelius Fudge got the job. Bungler if ever there was once. So he pelts Dumbledore with owls every morning, askin' fer advice." Whether anyone else was in the running isn't clear, but what is clear is that Fudge is a poor second choice compared to Dumbledore. I know I find that when I enter the voting booth, I'm often faced with a choice of candidates where I feel as if I have to pick the best of a bad lot. (I often wonder why, with all of the smart and talented people that are in this world, I'm left with having to make such a choice...) What I'm trying to say is that the best man (or woman!) for the job isn't always the person who's in that job - the best person for the job is often the person who wouldn't take the job, for one reason or another. I actually think that this is one of the rare instances in which JKR is creating a stereotypical character, and I think she's doing this intentionally to make a point about what can happen when politics interferes with good judgement. I came across the following quote from Philip Pullman's second novel in the Sally Lockhart trilogy (The Shadow in the North, Ch. 17) that expresses much better that I did the point I was trying to make about politicians and power: "She [Sally] had suddenly realized something about people like this - whether they were businessmen, policemen, civil servants, hotel proprietors, landlords, or what: it was that they didn't mean what they said. They never told the truth. What they seemed to be doing - catching criminals, buying and selling, banking, administering, making things - wasn't the real business of their lives at all. It was a cover. They were only playing at it, and they didn't even do it well, because they didn't believe in it. The real, secret business of their lives lay in keeping power for people like themselves. That was all they really cared about, and they were desperately serious about it, because the thought of losing the little power they had was terrifying to them; and they didn't mind what damage they did to truth or honesty or justice in the struggle to hang on to it." ~Phyllis From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 15 14:51:19 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 14:51:19 -0000 Subject: Magic Dishwasher? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55360 Erin wrote: > I think I've got a handle on most of the ideas, but Magic > Dishwasher continues to elude me, though I find references to > it everywhere. Does anyone have the # of a post where it is > spelled out? Now me: Try this link: http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/hypotheticalley.html#md ~Phyllis From cymru1ca at yahoo.ca Tue Apr 15 15:07:10 2003 From: cymru1ca at yahoo.ca (Erica) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 15:07:10 -0000 Subject: Fw: [HPforGrownups] Re: Filch the Traitor? In-Reply-To: <000401c30353$13a7aa70$dc806750@takun> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55361 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "izaskun granda" wrote: > > Erica wrote: > > I get the > impression that Dumbledore offered Filch 'a place' in the wizarding > community where everyone else had shunned him (same as Dunbledore did > for werewolf!Lupin, ideas_beyond_his_station!Dobby, etc) > > ME: Dumbledore didn't offer Filch 'a place' in the wizarding community. He was already there before Dumbledore became Headmaster. How do I know? Well, because he says that he misses the old days when detentions took place in the dungeons, they hang students by their thumbs of something of the sort. But all that ended when Dumbledore became Headmaster. So... maybe he's not so fond of Dumbledore after all. He's a very nasty person. > So, in Riddle and Hagrid's day, Dumbledore is Transfiguration Prof. and Dippet is Headmaster and they would allow children to be hung by their thumbnails, in the dungeon, as a punishment? How do you know that Filch was there before Dumbledore became Headmaster? I recall that there was a different caretaker around when Molly and Arthur were at school, so when did Filch come on board. Erica From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Tue Apr 15 15:37:38 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 11:37:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The JKR interview on the DVD: SHIP AND Shipping Mentality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030415153738.55879.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55362 --- heidit at netbox.com wrote: > But for those who believe that in early 2000, JKR > made it clear to everyone > that there would never be any H/Hr romance, this > interview should be a bit of > an issue/bone of consternation (unless you read it > as "Ron is interested in > Hermione and Hermione is interested in Ron and Harry > is also interested in > Ron..."). As someone who believes that JKR made it very clear to everyone in early 2000 that there would never be any H/Hr romance, the interview brought a smile to my face, since it destroyed an H/Hr line of speculation from late 2002. (Yes, I'm an R/Hr reprobate.) Everything has to be taken in context. Remember the context of this interview. She's talking about what Christopher Columbus did in the movie with the shipping situation. Now, when Columbus gave his infamous interview, the overall response in the fandom was that Columbus wasn't JKR, and if he shipped Ron and Hermione, that didn't mean JKR did. I know that a few more subtle H/Hers didn't take that line, but you must admit that was the widespread response. I keep a close eye on the FAP shipping threads, because, being me, I like to know what the fandom trends are. So, what JKR said here is that she endorses Columbus's view of the shipping. As an R/Her, I'm obviously delighted. But then, not too much. You see, I don't primarily ship R/Hr because I like it, though I do moderately. I ship it because that's what I see in canon. I see NO indication of H/Hr in canon. Absolutely none, and believe me, I've looked. Well, I don't, and you do, and what does that mean? Nothing, I would think. The fact that so many people see H/Hr does not mean it's there. Neither does the fact that so many people don't see it mean it's not there. But, here's the problem, there is a feeling present in many H/Hr posts including your own that R/Hers are arrogant in refusing to consider any possibility than their own ship. After all, H/Hers recognize that there is R/Hr indications in canon. Why can't the other side return the favour? Well, because we don't see it. It's not a matter of arrogance. It's the fact that we honestly do NOT see it. And, if we take it as assumed in canon speculation, that's because we've made an honest decision to assume it. I really don'tt see what is so wrong with that. After all, we do the same thing in other realms of speculation. I have made a honest decision to assume that Magic Dishwasher is not at all indicated by canon. I am 100% certain that there will be no Magic Dishwasher in the upcoming books. Similarly, I am 100% certain that there will be no H/Hr in the upcoming books. Is that somehow an invalid assumption, because H/Hers would disagree with it? Eileen ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From heidit at netbox.com Tue Apr 15 15:55:13 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (heidi tandy) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 08:55:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The JKR interview on the DVD: SHIP AND Shipping Mentality In-Reply-To: <20030415153738.55879.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030415155513.75905.qmail@web80504.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55363 Eileen, nowhere in my post did I say, imply or wish to suggest that it was improper to think that R/Hr would develop in the three forthcoming books. But, you wrote: > So, what JKR said here is that she endorses > Columbus's > view of the shipping. Actually, what she said is that Columbus, who is, according to JKR, in the dark as to many, if not all, future plot points, suggested in the CoS film something that is not suggested in CoS, the book, but which is suggested in GoF - feelings between "the three of them." I can't see how this can be read in any other way. > But then, not too much. You see, I don't primarily > ship R/Hr because I like it, though I do moderately. > I > ship it because that's what I see in canon. Do you mean to say that you believe that a romance between Ron and Hermione exists within the pages of GoF? In other words, do you think that in the timeframe of GoF, but off the page, they are snogging, holding hands, etc.? Because that's what I was refering to in my post. > But, here's the problem, there is a feeling present > in > many H/Hr posts including your own that R/Hers are > arrogant in refusing to consider any possibility > than > their own ship. If you're getting that feeling, it was not intended by me as either text of subtext. I don't think that people who believe that there is "offpage" snogging between Ron and Hermione in the GoF timeframe are arrogant. I simply think that arguing that it is canon they *actually are* snogging off the page is, well, unsupported by canon. It's wishful thinking. > And, if we take it as assumed in canon > speculation, that's because we've made an honest > decision to assume it. I really don'tt see what is > so > wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with that, nothing at all. But again, that's not what I was pointing out, and in my phrasing ("...it is canon...") I was clearly unclear. What I should have said is, "there are certain people on certain ships who don't simply think that their ship will be bourne out by the next three books when romance blossoms - they think that romance already exists and is flourishing." Also, Eileen wrote: > As someone who believes that JKR made it very clear > to > everyone in early 2000 that there would never be any > H/Hr romance, the interview brought a smile to my > face, since it destroyed an H/Hr line of speculation > from late 2002. (Yes, I'm an R/Hr reprobate.) Which line of speculation? As someone who ships neither R/Hr not H/Hr, I'm admittedly clueless as to what you're refering to here. heidi ===== heidi tandy They say its a sign of mental health to hold apparently contradictory ideas in your mind. The world of late has been a particularly exotic stew of horror and beauty. There are killers, there are saints. The trick is to find the right spot on the spectrum between abject despair and total obliviousness. And then carry on... Joel Achenbach From grace701 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 15 15:58:26 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 15:58:26 -0000 Subject: How to deal with HP deaths (was Re: HP and LV die together?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55364 Catlady wrote: << In turn making Harry his downfall. That possibly if he kills Harry that he will also die? >> >I think that Voldemort and Harry got their lives bound together, so > that the only way either one of them can die is if both of them >die, but I think that happened when Voldemort used Harry's blood >for his re-embodiment spell. That's my theory of the gleam in >Dumbledore's eye: it appeared when Dumbledore heard that Voldemort >had made himself mortal, possible to be killed, and was replaced by >the weary look when he realised that it would involve Harry's >death. I predict that Harry will grab onto Voldemort and push-pull >him off the tallest tower at Hogwarts so that both are killed by >the fall, and the last chapter will be Harry's funeral. I just realized that, although, I love every character in this book, especially Hermione being that she's my favorite, but being that Harry is the focal point of the story, the narrarator, I may just cry my butt off as though it were a real person. To me these characters are real. They come to life for me, as I'm sure to all of you as well. If not we wouldn't be here discussing their futures the way we want their futures to be. We wouldn't read fan fics to fulfill our ideas. I can just picture myself crying and my mother, who will most likely read the spanish edition after my sister and I read the english edition, telling me to not tell her who it is! I know this topic has been discussed before, but I never posted. Just wanted to post what I thought now. Greicy, who will be depressed for days of Harry and all other characters dies From grace701 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 15 16:02:43 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 16:02:43 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Birthday; SHIP (FITD) In-Reply-To: <054901c302ff$e9ff3b00$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55365 > Petra: <<<<<<< the foreshadowing from the red herrings? > The only difference between foreshadowing > and red herring is that the former is > accurate and the latter is misleading. > Which is to say that until the big reveal, > a good mystery leaves the readers utterly > unable to tell which is which.>>>>>>>>>>> Penny wrote: >>*nods* Yep, I agree with Petra on this point. I think GoF >>foreshadows R-------->Hr and that it foreshadows Hr------------- >>Ha. Clearly, Katy would disagree and so would Chris Columbus. >>Remains to be seen how it all plays out, and I sincerely doubt it >>will all be resolved by the end of OoP in any case. Question is is JKR foreshadowing a Ha------------>Hr. If not it will lead us to a love triangle and maybe even a couple of third wheelers: Ginny------>Ha, Neville--------->Hr or Ginny, and who knows whoe else. I bet love potions are going to be slipped in one of the books. Greicy From siskiou at earthlink.net Tue Apr 15 16:12:54 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 09:12:54 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The JKR interview on the DVD: SHIP AND Shipping Mentality In-Reply-To: <20030415155513.75905.qmail@web80504.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030415155513.75905.qmail@web80504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8178357884.20030415091254@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 55366 Hi, Tuesday, April 15, 2003, 8:55:13 AM, heidi wrote: >> in >> many H/Hr posts including your own that R/Hers are >> arrogant in refusing to consider any possibility >> than >> their own ship. > If you're getting that feeling, it was not intended by > me as either text of subtext. I don't think that > people who believe that there is "offpage" snogging > between Ron and Hermione in the GoF timeframe are > arrogant. I simply think that arguing that it is canon > they *actually are* snogging off the page is, well, > unsupported by canon. It's wishful thinking. I'm not Eileen, but it seems you may have misunderstood what she was referring to. I thought she was saying that she feels a lot of H/Hr's think R/Hr's are arrogant because they truly don't see *any* H/Hr signs in canon, which doesn't have anything to do with supposed off page "snogging". -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From susannahlm at yahoo.com Tue Apr 15 16:15:44 2003 From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (derannimer) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 16:15:44 -0000 Subject: SHIPping Attitudes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55367 Eileen, who is probably my favorite R/H SHIPper, wrote: >You see, I don't primarily >ship R/Hr because I like it, though I do moderately. I >ship it because that's what I see in canon. I see NO >indication of H/Hr in canon. Absolutely none, and >believe me, I've looked. >But, here's the problem, there is a feeling present in >many H/Hr posts including your own that R/Hers are >arrogant in refusing to consider any possibility than >their own ship. After all, H/Hers recognize that there >is R/Hr indications in canon. Why can't the other side >return the favour? >Well, because we don't see it. It's not a matter of >arrogance. It's the fact that we honestly do NOT see >it. And, if we take it as assumed in canon >speculation, that's because we've made an honest >decision to assume it. I really don't see what is so >wrong with that. Oh, Eileen, *nothing.* There is nothing wrong with that. There is nothing wrong with saying: "I plain don't see any evidence for H/H." What there *is* something wrong with saying, and what a lot of R/Hers--though obviously not often on *this* list--*are* saying, is: "I plain don't see any evidence for H/H and the only reason that you do is that you are a wishfully thinking idiot." See, there's nothing wrong with saying you see no evidence for a theory, as long as you acknowledge that someone else *does* see it, and that they aren't necessarily doing so from sheer intellectual dishonesty. (See Angua's recent assertion that one could only be H/H from--paraphrase--a "stubborn romanticizing and eroticizing impulse.") Now, obviously, this sort of thing goes on all the time in all SHIPping discussions--but I truly do think that the R/Hers are worse this way, largely because R/H is the more popular SHIP, and because GOF was a very R/H book. But then, I might only think that because I'm FITD-cum-H/H. What can I say? In this darn SHIPping conversation, we are none of us free from our biases. Derannimer (who would like to point out that Eileen herself has never, to Derannimer's recollection, once insulted H/H, or H/Hers) From selene at earthlink.net Tue Apr 15 15:24:59 2003 From: selene at earthlink.net (Susan Fox-Davis) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 08:24:59 -0700 Subject: Snape and the Death Eaters? Message-ID: <3E9C244A.9E5F88FD@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 55368 < < < "Snape has been cleared by this council," said Crouch distainfully. "He has been vouched for by Albus Dumbledore." "No!" shouted Karkaroff, straining at the chains that bound him to the chair. "I assure you! Severus Snape is a Death Eater!" Dumbledore had gotten to his feet. " I have given evidence already on this matter," he said calmly. "Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater. However, he rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk. He is now no more a Death Eater than I am." > > > Mark that last sentence very carefully. It could go either way. The Worst Possible Thing [tm] would be for Dumbledore to be/become/have been all along a Death Eater, yesno? Susan Fox-Davis selene at earthlink.net From selene at earthlink.net Tue Apr 15 15:33:42 2003 From: selene at earthlink.net (Susan Fox-Davis) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 08:33:42 -0700 Subject: Lily & Petunia Evans Message-ID: <3E9C2655.9AFBDF0E@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 55369 I find myself interested in Harry's Mother's family connections. Does JKR say in canon anywhere that theirs is a Muggle family? Petunia resented the family's overwhelming approval of Lily's magical talent that I can only suspect Petunia of being a Squib, or at least of suppressing her lesser talent along with the trauma of losing the sibling rivalry game. But Petunia must take a greater role in VWII, since she and Dudley share Lily's enchanted blood along with Harry. Duddikins at Hogwarts. Can't you just see him now, paddling along in Malfoy's wake with a "kick me" sign on his piggy bottom, making Crabbe and Goyle look brilliant. Susan Fox-Davis selene at earthlink.net From jizzkitty420 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 15 15:37:43 2003 From: jizzkitty420 at yahoo.com (Giselle Sicle) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 08:37:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hagrid in Knockturn Alley In-Reply-To: <000701c3034c$3dd6c8f0$0e010001@jmd2000> Message-ID: <20030415153743.47393.qmail@web13102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55370 Jeremy Davis wrote:JKR has said in the past (dunno where or when!!) that there are some significant happenings in COS. I'm just wondering what peoples views are on the reason why Hagrid was in Knockturn Alley when Harry miss-dialed with his floo power. Hagrid said he was looking for the "Flesh Eating Slug Repellant". Is he telling the whole truth? In response to your Hagrid question. I have always believed that Hagrid wasn't telling the entire truth. There is no mention of any flesh eating slugs anywhere in CoS except in that scene. But then again perhaps that was Hagrid's theory on what was killing his roosters, but the way I see it the roosters weren't dying until after the school year began. What else could he have been looking for in such a dark magic infested place? No: HPFGUIDX 55371 selene at earthlink.net writes: << But Petunia must take a greater role in VWII, since she and Dudley share Lily's enchanted blood along with Harry. >> What do you mean by "enchanted blood"? If you mean the protection part that allowed Harry to defeat Voldemort twice, then Petunia and Dudley don't have that because Lily did not sacrifice her life for them, only Harry. If you mean the fact that Petunia and Dudley share Lily's blood in that they may have some of those latent magical genes, that may be true, but Harry's father was also a wizard, possibly pureblooded, so Harry would have more magic in him than Petunia, and a lot more than Dudley, being that both Dudley's parents are Muggles. It was not in canon, but in an interview that JKR stated Lily was definitely a Muggleborn witch, just like Hermione. Though in the "magical genetics" theory, one would presume that the Evans family had some wizarding genes in them somewhere along the line, and it just happened to be expressed in Lily. Petunia may have some wizarding genes, but not enough to be a witch. Vernon Dursley's family background is pretty much unknown except for the fact that he and his sister are Muggles. If he has some unexpressed wizarding genes and Petunia has some unexpressed wizarding genes, then Dudley has a little more potential to show some powers, but then why didn't he receive a letter? That says to me that he does not have enough magic in him to be a wizard. We have heard that in the next book Muggles will get involved in the Voldemort war, and many believe it will be through the Dursleys, but I don't think it is because any of them will develop magical powers. I believe a connection will be established between the Riddles and the Evans, and also that Voldemort may do something to the Grangers in order to lure Hermione away from Hogwarts and use her as bait for Harry, and this is how Muggles will start to get involved. -Audra- From hollydaze at btinternet.com Tue Apr 15 17:10:41 2003 From: hollydaze at btinternet.com (Hollydaze) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 18:10:41 +0100 Subject: Quidditch Reserves (No longer OOP) References: Message-ID: <000b01c30372$06e48320$e0398351@j0dhe> No: HPFGUIDX 55372 FlamingStar Chows wrote: > > > Harry missed the final game is SS because he was unconscious in the hospital > > > wing for three days. It is mentioned early in CoS that they were flattened > > > in that final game because they had no seeker and had to play one player > > > short. Serena wrote: > > That doesn't make any sense. Of course they would loose, the only > > way they could win is if you have situation like GoF at World Cup > > where the opposing seeker decides to end the game even though it > > means his team will lose--And how often does that happen? I mean > > could a team even play without a seeker? Catlady wrote: > "It must be possible, Captain: it happened." I have to say I disagree with the statement that Gryffindor played without a seeker in that last game and I have two quotes to show why. I've just finished reading Philosophers stone again (I'm starting my OOP re-reads early because I have A Level exams that only finish a day before the book comes out) and in PS Ron says to Harry: "you missed the last Quidditch match, we were steamrollered by Ravenclaw without you" (Pg 219, PS British Paperback). In CoS, this is explained further: "he (Harry) had been unconscious in the hospital wing for the final match, meaning that Gryffindor had been a player short and had suffered their worst defeat in 300 years" (Pg 84, CoS British Paperback). In neither case does it say they played without a seeker, and only in the second quote does it say that they were one player short. To me this suggested that they did have a seeker but that it was someone who had moved from another position (probably a chaser as there are 3 of them compared to only 2 beaters - and you really need both of them and the keeper). So because their skills were not those required by a seeker and as they would only have had two chasers, they lost. I think this just because looking at the basic rules of Quidditch, playing without a seeker is almost the same as forfeiting the match (at least at the level they are playing) it just makes no sense to me that they would even consider playing without a seeker. Although as some other people have pointed out in previous discussions about this subject, I don't understand why they didn't just play someone who had at least half decent seeker skills, surely in a house of between 70 - 250 students (depending on the number of students you believe are at Hogwarts) they should have found ONE person who could have taken on the role, even if they weren't anywhere near as good as Harry. The only way I can think that wouldn't work is if you have to submit your team - including reserves - and then only those people are allowed to play for you through the season. Then, if, as Harry says, there is no reserve seeker, then they would only be able to move someone from another position to fill Harry's. If I've missed anything that would make my thoughts wrong please 'point me' because I haven't read the books for a while and may have forgotten some important details. HOLLYDAZE!!! Who has better things to do than write to HPfGU (cough*revision*cough) but has been out of the loop so long that she just HAD to write something! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Tue Apr 15 17:26:07 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 17:26:07 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts's Security In-Reply-To: <20030414162403.98223.qmail@web20422.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55373 Eileen wrote: > I was and > continue to be disturbed by the security of Hogwarts. > Sure, no one can apparate on the grounds, but anyone > can fly in on broomsticks as proved by the Norbert > episode in PS/SS. I would wonder if this were > Hogwarts's Achilles Heel, except that the possibility > that Sirius Black had entered from the air is not even > considered in PoA, leading me to think that it's a > mistake in JKR's conception of Hogwarts. Doesn't Ron or Hermione suggest in GOF to 'Moody' that Crouch Sr could have been kidnapped on a broomstick? Crouch Jr might have some weird reason to mislead the trio into thinking Hogwarts security is laxer than it really is, but I think it's more likely that you can get in and out by broomstick. At the end of PS does Dumbledore make some remark about crossing in the air, implying he was coming back from London by air? David From erinellii at yahoo.com Tue Apr 15 05:40:56 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 05:40:56 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Death Eaters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55374 -Laura wrote: > I, for one, still don't completely > trust Snape. Yes, we know that Dumbledore absolutely positively > trusts him. > > And that's exactly why I don't. Think about it- Dumbledore is > *always* right. He knows what's happened, what is happening, and he sometimes seems to know what will happen. He say through TMR during the COS issue 50 years ago, he knew when Harry had gone to the Weasley's house, he knew he had to keep the executioner in Hagrid's hut longer to allow Harry and Hermione more time to free Buckbeak. The guys knows EVERYTHING. > > So he has to be wrong sometime. It's sort of a mini-theory of > mine...more of a suspicion, really. It's sort of bangy. Wrong! > Dumbledore. > > And I'm not totally convinced that this isn't the time that he's > wrong. Do I have canon to back this up? > > Nope. =) Now me: Well, Dumbledore has *already* been wrong. You've totally left out that whole giant thing about Moody being Crouch and Dumbledore not knowing it. This is exactly why I think Snape is to be trusted. Dumbledore has made a mistake-- a huge, giant mistake-- about one of his lieutenants already. He is unlikely to do so a second time. Erin (who rests safe in her total and complete trust of Snape) From jentifred at spamcop.net Tue Apr 15 16:47:38 2003 From: jentifred at spamcop.net (Jennifer Angliss) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 10:47:38 -0600 Subject: Fw: [HPforGrownups] Re: Filch the Traitor? In-Reply-To: <000401c30353$13a7aa70$dc806750@takun> References: <000401c30353$13a7aa70$dc806750@takun> Message-ID: <1050425258.8d49f98eb3577@webmail.spamcop.net> No: HPFGUIDX 55375 Quoting izaskun granda : > > Erica wrote: > > I get the > impression that Dumbledore offered Filch 'a place' in the wizarding > community where everyone else had shunned him (same as Dunbledore did > for werewolf!Lupin, ideas_beyond_his_station!Dobby, etc) > > ME: Dumbledore didn't offer Filch 'a place' in the wizarding community. He > was already there before Dumbledore became Headmaster. How do I know? Well, > because he says that he misses the old days when detentions took place in the > dungeons, they hang students by their thumbs of something of the sort. But > all that ended when Dumbledore became Headmaster. So... maybe he's not so > fond of Dumbledore after all. He's a very nasty person. I'm not sure we can take Filch at his word on this one. After all, he says it to Harry when Harry has gotten into trouble for something. I could easily see him just trying to scare Harry into behaving a bit. Jennifer From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 15 17:48:33 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 17:48:33 -0000 Subject: The Gleam of Something Like Triumph (WAS: HP and LV die together?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55376 Liz Martin asked: > In turn making Harry his [Voldemort's] downfall. That possibly if > he kills Harry that he will also die? and the Catlady responded: > I think that Voldemort and Harry got their lives bound together, so > that the only way either one of them can die is if both of them > die, but I think that happened when Voldemort used Harry's blood > for his re-embodiment spell. That's my theory of the gleam in > Dumbledore's eye: it appeared when Dumbledore heard that Voldemort > had made himself mortal, possible to be killed, and was replaced by > the weary look when he realised that it would involve Harry's > death. Now me: I have a similar, but slightly different, theory on the "gleam of something like triumph in Dumbledore's eyes." I also think that the gleam was triggered by Dumbledore's realization that by using Harry's blood in the regeneration potion, Voldemort could now be killed, and that the gleam vanished almost instantly, replaced by the "old and weary" look, when Dumbledore realized that Harry's death would be required in order to vanquish Voldemort. However, I don't believe that the reason why Voldemort can now be killed is because Voldemort has made himself mortal. I think the reason the gleam appears is because Dumbledore realizes something that has not occurred to Voldemort. And Voldemort already knows that he's lost his immortality, as he admits quite openly in the graveyard: "I was willing to embrace mortal life again, before chasing immortal. I set my sights lower...I would settle for my old body back again, and my old strength" (GoF, Ch. 33). And also - it's the use of Harry's blood that triggers the gleam. While it's not explicitly stated in GoF, presumably Harry informed Dumbledore of Wormtail cutting his hand off for the potion before he got to the part about Wormtail piercing his arm. So it's not the use of human flesh or human blood that triggers the gleam, IMO - it's the use of *Harry's* blood. So, here's what I think - I think that Voldemort will now perform his various immortality spells and believe himself incapable of being killed. And I think he won't be able to be killed by anyone except Harry, because something about using Harry's blood in the regeneration potion will allow Harry to kill him when no one else can. But I also think that when Harry kills him, Harry will die as well - once again, due to the link between Harry and Voldemort created by the taking of Harry's blood for the potion. There is one slight problem with this theory, which is that I don't believe Harry capable of murder. He wouldn't let Sirius and Remus kill Pettigrew in the Shrieking Shack; he didn't try an Avada Kedavra curse on Voldemort or any of the other DEs in the graveyard. So I think that Harry will wind up killing Voldemort unintentionally. So while I'll be very sad to see Harry die, at least we'll be spared his guilt. ~Phyllis From annemehr at yahoo.com Tue Apr 15 18:36:20 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 18:36:20 -0000 Subject: How to deal with HP deaths (was Re: HP and LV die together?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55377 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grace701" wrote: > I just realized that, although, I love every character in this book, > especially Hermione being that she's my favorite, but being that > Harry is the focal point of the story, the narrarator, I may just > cry my butt off as though it were a real person. To me these > characters are real. They come to life for me, as I'm sure to all > of you as well. If not we wouldn't be here discussing their futures > the way we want their futures to be. We wouldn't read fan fics to > fulfill our ideas. > > I can just picture myself crying and my mother, who will most likely > read the spanish edition after my sister and I read the english > edition, telling me to not tell her who it is! > > I know this topic has been discussed before, but I never posted. > Just wanted to post what I thought now. > > Greicy, who will be depressed for days of Harry and all other > characters dies Annemehr: Your post really resonated with me, Greicy, because I wonder about that a lot, too. I started off just like Book One did, reading about The Boy Who Lived. All the way through the first four books (much more than once) I thought I was reading this story about Harry who survived Voldemort's attacks, and I was looking forward to seeing how Harry & Co. would defeat Voldemort once and for all -- with a happy ending. Then, I realized that Harry might very well die. So, I've cried over him already. And now, I want to explore the canon a bit, in a general way. The beginning of PS/SS really does set a tone about a boy who survived the darkest wizard of all time, albeit with great loss. The story goes on to have him survive yet again, fighting this time. It continues in the next three books. I, at least, took it for the general thrust of the whole series. On the other hand, and without taking the time to page through all the books, I can think of very many things that seem to point toward Harry's death. There is the fact that Bane was angry at Firenze for saving Harry from Quirrell!Mort in the Forbidden Forest. He seemed to imply that Harry's death was written in the stars and that Firenze should not be opposing that. At the end of CoS, when Hermione asks if Harry's aunt and uncle wouldn't be proud of the things he's done, Harry replies, "Proud? Are you crazy? All those times I couldv'e died, and I didn't manage it? They'll be furious...." Well, how many times will Harry have the chance to die -- aren't we afraid that he *will* manage it eventually? People do tell him, in every book, that he will be meeting the same sticky end as his parents, that he'll be joining his "mudblood" mother and "arrogant" father soon. There are all Professor Trelawney's predictions for Harry's demise -- and then we find out that she indeed does have *some* ability to make predictions (and you know, she was right about Neville's teacup and Hermione's leaving around Easter time). Even Ron and Harry's made-up predictions are noted for coming true, and there are deaths there. Ron's Parrot!wand cuts off the head of Harry's Fish!wand in Professor McGonagall's class in GoF. At Christmas dinner, (PoA, is it?) the boys get up from a table of thirteen. How do we take this? Since they got up at the same time as far as anyone can tell, are they both doomed? Or, since one of them may be presumed to have gotten up first, does it apply to only that one? Do we dare dismiss what Trelawney says as utter nonsense? Then there is the theory personified by Stoned!Harry on TBAY. It begins in a post by Caroline (message #38542), which looks at the symbolism behind the elements that make up the Philosopher's Stone (in real life alchemy, I mean), and relates it all to Harry. It fits so well with canon that I am using it here -- read the post if you haven't yet! Anyway, it looks as though Harry himself is a living philosopher's stone. Caroline and others believe that this is the result of James and Lily's coming together and producing Harry (some theorise, on purpose); I, on the other hand, think it more likely that Harry became the living Stone when Voldemort transferred some of his powers to Harry the night he tried to kill him. Either way, we all know what happened to the philosopher's stone in book one, don't we? In the Graveyard, Voldemort is revived with a potion containing Harry's blood. Isn't this reminiscent of the first book, where Voldemort survives with unicorn blood? And Harry, though of course not entirely innocent, is much more than a unicorn, for which he seems to stand in here. In PS/SS, the unicorn died. Harry has been completely reluctant to kill his enemies. Though he had feelings of fury toward Sirius Black when he thought Black was the traitor, though he even believed that he wanted to kill him, when he finally got the opportunity he couldn't do it. Further, when he found out the truth about Pettigrew, he saved his life, also. What will happen when he faces Voldemort again? Will he only try do disarm him, as he did in GoF? Does anyone honestly see him learning how to do Avada Kedavra anyway? So Harry, in my opinion, will not pick up a weapon that it seems others will be only too willing to use against him, and which he can only hope to block from one other wand. I am sure there are other things, and I would welcome anyone pointing them out, but I will stop here. Some seem to be foreshadowing, others just give me a "feeling" about things. But I wonder -- now there are so *many* things pointing to Harry's death at the end of the story. Is it almost too much? Am I seeing foreshadowings of a sad ending, or am I following Red Herrings now? At the moment, I am not able to think of any foreshadowing of Harry's happy ending -- except maybe the title of the very first chapter, "The Boy Who Lived." Harry has shown that he is quite willing to lose his life in the fight against evil. Will it really change anything if he actually does? Right now, I have no idea what's going to happen, which leaves me in a state of tension, wondering, until I finish reading Book Seven. I will find it hard to take if the end of the series is also the end of Harry. Annemehr who trusts that, if Harry dies, it will be essential to the victory and not just a wayward last curse from a dying DE that might just as well have missed. That would really *bother* me! From oppen at mycns.net Tue Apr 15 18:58:52 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 13:58:52 -0500 Subject: Dementor question Message-ID: <015301c30381$0f9fc7e0$06570043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 55378 How fast can a Dementor travel? Or are there other Dementors than the ones at Azkaban (and Hogwarts during PoA)? Reason I ask is this: When Cornelius Fudge came to Hogwarts to watch the Third Task, I "hae me doots" that he brought along a Dementor---"no, you can _not_ come watch the Triwizard Tournament's Third Task. _And 'Bambi eyes' won't help!_" If only because of the creatures' reputation and effect on others, I think they're probably not welcome most places. So when "Moody" turned out to be Barty Crouch, Jr., which apparently surprised even Professor Dumbledore, he'd have had to get one _fast_ to have one ready to roll when he was called into the castle. Can Dementors apparate? Can they, if they can apparate, apparate onto the Hogwarts grounds? We know that _wizards and witches_ can't do this, at least according to _Hogwarts: A History,_ but we've seen (in CoS) that house-elves apparently can do something of the sort. If Dementors can apparate, what's to prevent them apparating off Azkaban Island every so often for a yummy snack on the mainland? --peering around uneasily for Dementors, Eric From starropal at hotmail.com Tue Apr 15 19:16:27 2003 From: starropal at hotmail.com (Eunice) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 19:16:27 -0000 Subject: Fw: [HPforGrownups] Re: Filch the Traitor? In-Reply-To: <000401c30353$13a7aa70$dc806750@takun> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55379 Izaskun said: >Dumbledore didn't offer Filch 'a place' in the wizarding community. He was already there before Dumbledore became Headmaster. How do I know? Well, because he says that he misses the old days when detentions took place in the dungeons, they hang students by their thumbs of something of the sort. But all that ended when Dumbledore became Headmaster.> I'm calling movie contamination on this one. *puts on gloves* In TMTMNBN (I think I got that right) Filch says that part about the thumbs and "I miss the screaming" BUT in the book he says... "It's just a pity they let the old punishments die out... hang you by the wrists from the ceiling for a few days, I've got the chains still in my office, keep 'em well oiled in case they're ever needed..." P/SS, ch 15, pg 248 U.S. paperback So there's no proof that he was there when the "old punishments" were still used. Just that he still has the, well kept, means to use them. BTW I don't subscribe to FIE (Filch Is Evil). Star Opal who had a dream where all the secrets of OotP were revealed, but forgot From jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu Tue Apr 15 19:33:22 2003 From: jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu (Jonathan Pessin) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 14:33:22 -0500 Subject: Snape and the Death Eaters? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55380 Laura wrote : I might mention that, as far as we can tell, Snape might well be a spy for either side. Or he could be spying for both sides and not give a you-know-what who "wins." I, for one, still don't completely trust Snape. Yes, we know that Dumbledore absolutely positively trusts him. And that's exactly why I don't. Think about it- Dumbledore is *always* right. He knows what's happened, what is happening, and he sometimes seems to know what will happen. He say through TMR during the COS issue 50 years ago, he knew when Harry had gone to the Weasley's house, he knew he had to keep the executioner in Hagrid's hut longer to allow Harry and Hermione more time to free Buckbeak. The guys knows EVERYTHING. So he has to be wrong sometime. It's sort of a mini-theory of mine...more of a suspicion, really. It's sort of bangy. Wrong! Dumbledore. And I'm not totally convinced that this isn't the time that he's wrong. Do I have canon to back this up? Nope. =)" I reply: Maybe not pure canon, but I for one wouldn't trust Snape as far as I can throw Hagrid. Sure, maybe he's acting out of altruistic feelings and repentance, but IMNSHO, I think Snape could just as easily working for self-preservation. My personal, not-entirely-proven theory is that sometime near the end of VWI, Snape did something to get himself into hot water with Voldie - maybe his innate "Slytherinly" ambition led him to try to get a piece of the pie a bit too big for him. Whatever it was, I see some transgression which might not lead to his being killed outright (after all, he's a useful potion-brewer, if nothing else), but would make it seem like a good idea in the long run to get rid of him. Snape, being the pragmatic and insightful person he is, would notice this, and perhaps decide that it'd be best to live under Dumbledore's yoke than to die under Voldie, so he turns spy and tries to solve his problems by getting Voldie vanquished. The problem with this is, if I'm theorizing correctly, that as soon as it serves him better to work for Voldemort again, Snape'll turn faster than a person traveling by Floo. One of the reasons I have trouble seeing Snape as a permanent "good" guy is that he's just so vicious. Quite apart from trying to get Harry expelled (which he could have any number of reasons for) or sneering at Neville (which may just be from impatience toward stupidity), it's his actions toward Hermione which make me want to punch that hooked nose in: >From GoF, US Paperback edition, pp 299-300: Ron... forced Hermione to show Snape her teeth - she was doing her best to hide them with her hands, though this was difficult as they had now grown down past her collar... Snape looked coldly at Hermione, then said, "I see no difference." Here, Snape is talking to one of, if not THE, best student in the grade. She doesn't always talk in class and disrupt lessons. She doesn't melt cauldrons. She acts respectfully even toward him. I feel that this type of abuse, a teacher maliciously and needlessly belittling a student under his care, is utterly unforgivable. Whatever other actions Snape may do, I don't think they'd be able to redeem him in my eyes just because of that one careless sentence. He could bring Harry and Dumbledore Voldemort's head on a silver platter, and I'd still call him an evil git. Sorry, I got a bit worked up there. In any case, I personally find it hard to believe that a person who is willing to scar a child mentally (which such actions may do) can be considered a "good" person. But maybe it's just me. Hobbit_guy, who would like to hear Snape say "I'm sorry" to the trio as much as I'd like to hear Harry say "Thank you" to Snape. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You haven't been getting into the Gaffer's home brew again, have you?" "No... Well, yes, but that's beside the point." -Frodo and Bilbo Baggins, Fellowship of the Rings Extended Edition DVD From draco382 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 15 19:32:40 2003 From: draco382 at yahoo.com (draco382) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 19:32:40 -0000 Subject: How to deal with HP deaths (was Re: HP and LV die together?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55381 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" < annemehr at y...> wrote: > On the other hand, and without taking the time to page through all the > books, I can think of very many things that seem to point toward > Harry's death. There is the fact that Bane was angry at Firenze for > saving Harry from Quirrell!Mort in the Forbidden Forest. He seemed to > imply that Harry's death was written in the stars and that Firenze > should not be opposing that. At the end of CoS, when Hermione asks if > Harry's aunt and uncle wouldn't be proud of the things he's done, > Harry replies, "Proud? Are you crazy? All those times I couldv'e > died, and I didn't manage it? They'll be furious...." Well, how many > times will Harry have the chance to die -- aren't we afraid that he > *will* manage it eventually? People do tell him, in every book, that > he will be meeting the same sticky end as his parents, that he'll be > joining his "mudblood" mother and "arrogant" father soon. > > There are all Professor Trelawney's predictions for Harry's demise -- > and then we find out that she indeed does have *some* ability to make > predictions (and you know, she was right about Neville's teacup and > Hermione's leaving around Easter time). Even Ron and Harry's made-up > predictions are noted for coming true, and there are deaths there. > Ron's Parrot!wand cuts off the head of Harry's Fish!wand in Professor > McGonagall's class in GoF. At Christmas dinner, (PoA, is it?) the > boys get up from a table of thirteen. How do we take this? Since > they got up at the same time as far as anyone can tell, are they both > doomed? Or, since one of them may be presumed to have gotten up > first, does it apply to only that one? Do we dare dismiss what > Trelawney says as utter nonsense? Me: I'm one of the resident lurkers, but when i saw this topic (one of my favorites) I had to pop up to put in my two cents. There HAVE been entirely too many hints (subtle and not so subtle) that Harry is destined for "greatness" as pointed out in PS, but also perhaps a "sticky end" in the process. However, I have also gotten the acute impression JKR is trying to say that the future is never written in stone, and that one can change the course of events if they believe in their cause strongly enough. There is of course the negative portrayals we've seen of forture tellers...the Centaurs (the half horse/half man guys in the Forbidden Forest...i don't remember what they were called) are described by Hagrid as "ruddy stargazers." No need to go over the various names Trelawny has been given by many characters. Before HRH go to get the Philosopher's Stone in PS, Harry gives a speech that goes something like, "...He killed my parents! I'll never go to the dark side..." (i'm sorry, i don't have my copy of PS with me) One of the many reason's i love Harry is his strong will- power, and of all the examples, this one stands out to me the most. When he says he's not going to the dark side, I beleive it. I believe he does have the power to change the future with, if nothing else, his strength of mind, determination, etc.. I get the feeling that JKR throws in these little hints of Harry's "sticky end" just so she can prove to us that when push comes to shove, no one can make or break Harry's future besides Harry himself. annemehr says: > In the Graveyard, Voldemort is revived with a potion containing > Harry's blood. Isn't this reminiscent of the first book, where > Voldemort survives with unicorn blood? And Harry, though of course > not entirely innocent, is much more than a unicorn, for which he seems > to stand in here. In PS/SS, the unicorn died. > Me: That is true, but another thing that comes to mind is the Hippogriff. Buckbeak was convicted, all the charges were put into paper, and the day of his execution was set, and his execution even happened (at least the first time around :-) but in the end, Sirius Black road off into the sky on his back--against all odds. Who knows...maybe that time turner will be put to good use once again...to save another innocent life, this time, Harry's. my two cents :-) draco382 From mdemeran at hotmail.com Tue Apr 15 19:35:31 2003 From: mdemeran at hotmail.com (Meg Demeranville) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 14:35:31 -0500 Subject: FILK: Aurors, Galleons and Magic Message-ID: <000201c30386$2d055110$6501a8c0@MFD> No: HPFGUIDX 55382 Auror, Galleons and Magic to the song "Lawyers, Guns and Money" by Jimmy Buffett. Scene: Hermione sings to herself in Moaning Myrtle's bathroom while she waits for Harry and Ron to come back from the Slytherin Common Room. Hermione: (spoke, slightly yelled) Send Aurors, Galleons and Magic, the spells have hit the fan. (Winching to herself as her words echo, Hermione starts to sing) Well, I used magic on Snape Just like I said I'd do Oh, how was I to know He wasn't out for Harry too? Verse 2: Now, I'm hiding up at Hogwarts Well, I took a major risk Send Aurors, Galleons and Magic, Harry, get me out of this Bridge: I'm always treated as a bystander Somehow I got stuck Between a rock and a hard place And I'm down to my last knut Yes, I'm down to my last knut Oh, I'm down to my last knut Yes, I'm down to my last knut Verse 3: Now I'm hiding in a bathroom I'm a desperate woman Send Aurors, Galleons and Magic, The spells have hit the fan Send Aurors, Galleons and Magic, Send Aurors, Galleons and Magic. (Hearing noises outside the bathroom, Hermione runs to the safety of the nearest stall Ok, so I firmly resolve to start playing attention in class and actually listen to my professors. But this song crawled into my head and wouldn't leave me alone till I wrote it down. And I know I violated all kinds of Jimmy Buffett rules for FILKing his songs, but I am willing to risk it. --Meg (who promises to stop wearing headphones in class, honest!) Read the untold story of life as a first year medical student at: As The Scalpel Turns - http://www.livejournal.com/users/megd/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Apr 15 19:35:40 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 19:35:40 -0000 Subject: How to deal with HP deaths (was Re: HP and LV die together?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55383 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grace701" wrote: > > Liz Martin wrote: > << In turn making Harry his downfall. That possibly if he kills > Harry that he will also die? >> > Catlady wrote: > > > ...edited... That's my theory of the gleam in Dumbledore's eye: > > ... Voldemort had made himself mortal, possible to be killed, and > > (the gleam) was replaced by the weary look when he realised that > > it would involve Harry's death. ...edited...the last chapter will > > be Harry's funeral. > > > I just realized that, although, I love every character in this book, > especially Hermione being that she's my favorite, but being that > Harry is the focal point of the story, the narrarator, I may just > cry my butt off as though it were a real person. > > ...edited... > > Greicy, who will be depressed for days of Harry and all other > characters dies bboy_mn: I've said this before, but that discussion was a long time ago, so I will repeat it. If any of the three main characters die, I foresee an unprecidented out pouring of sadness and grief, and when(if) Harry dies I see that grief greatly exceeding the death of beloved Kings and Presidents. I can see the world coming nearly to a stand still. Absenteeism at business and schools sufficient to shut some down and cripple the operation of many to the extent that it will require intervention by grief councelors. I see the stock market dropping substantially. I see heart broken kids (and adults), locked in their rooms crying their eyes out for days on end as if the closest friend had died; maybe worse than if their closest friend had died. It's possible that Potter-mania will have dropped from a hysterical frenzy to just normal popularity, afterall, there are two books left (not counting OoP) and that could take two to five years to write. By then Potter-mania may have cooled a bit. But under any circumstances, if Harry dies, I predict a level of worldwide sadness, grief, and mourning the likes of which the world has never seen; a near crippling level of grief. I certainly can't prove that, but mark these word, and remember them if that day of mourning should ever come. You heard it here first. Just a thought. bboy_mn From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 15 19:39:42 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 19:39:42 -0000 Subject: The Dursleys WAS Re: single parents in HP In-Reply-To: <20030415011529.15382.qmail@web13115.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55384 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Gina Rosich wrote: > --- bluesqueak wrote: > > > > The Dursley's definitely do not have a healthy family > structure. > Vernon is a bully. Petunia smothers her natural son, > and favours him > over her foster son (though she is more caring towards > Harry than > Vernon is). Dudley displays many signs of being a > deeply unhappy and > disturbed child. Harry is the family 'scapegoat'. > > ME: > I definitely agree that the Dursley's are a deeply > troubled family. But, how exactly is Petunia more > caring towards Harry than Vernon? Or at least, less > uncaring? Because other than there being a > personality difference, I don't see one as being any > nicer or less nasty towards Harry than the other. > > Gina OK. We are encouraged to see 'the Dursley's' as a unit by the narrative voice; this is Harry's pov, and Harry does appear to see the Dursley's as a unit. There are in fact rather subtle differences between Petunia and Vernon. Petunia feeds Harry. Not in the sense of necessarily doing the actual cooking - she's obviously taught Harry how to cook breakfasts [Ch. 2 of PS/SS]. But when Harry is locked in his room in CoS, it's Petunia who shoves food into his room. Earlier, when Petunia is incredibly angry at him for threatening Dudley with magic [CoS Ch.1], she makes sure Harry eats supper. It's a lousy supper (bread and cheese), but she makes sure he gets it. So, however angry she is with Harry, Petunia makes sure her nephew is fed. Compare this with Vernon, who in PS/SS announces Harry's punishment by saying 'Go - cupboard - stay - *no meals*' [PS/SS Ch. 1 p. 26 UK paperback, my emphasis]. More speculatively, we are told Petunia is very houseproud, notices 'fingerprints on her gleaming walls' [GoF ch. 3] and is nosy (she spies on the neighbours in PS/SS and PoA). She is just the sort of person who would know exactly how much food is in her kitchen. But in PS/SS Ch.2, Harry plans to sneak to the kitchen at night for food. The suggestion is that he's done this before when Vernon has told him to go without meals. Is Petunia turning a blind eye to the missing food in the morning? The person who puts clothes on Harry is Petunia. In the physical sense - she is described as trying to force Harry into a hated jumper of Dudley's. She dyes clothes grey for him so he'll have a semblance of school uniform. The person who makes sure Harry isn't left in the house alone is Petunia. This is an interesting one. In Chapter 2 of PS/SS, Petunia is obviously completely unwilling to leave Harry in the house alone. Later, she's described as having in the past taken Harry shopping with Dudley. This is another example of her not wanting to leave Harry alone at 4 Privet Drive. She is, however, quite happy to leave Harry alone in their car at the zoo, and alone at King's Cross station. The words she uses when describing the possible consequences of Harry being left alone are :"...come back and find the house in ruins." Later in PS/SS we discover that Harry's parents were murdered by Voldemort, and one of the consequences of this murder was that their house was in ruins. Hagrid also uses 'ruined', in an echo of Petunia's earlier words. So what exactly is Petunia afraid of? Coming back and finding that Harry's damaged the house? That's what Vernon is afraid of with his new car 'That car's new, he's not sitting in it alone...' [PS/SS Ch.2 p. 22]. Or coming back and finding her house in ruins, but more importantly, her nephew murdered? The number of wizards who greet Harry when he is little (PS/SS Ch.2) suggests very strongly that the WW knows where Harry lives. And Petunia knows that. Until we find out what was in that dratted letter of Dumbledore's [grin] we won't know whether Petunia also knows that Harry is protected by a spell based on his relatives. We just know that she doesn't seem to want to leave Harry on his own at a place the WW knows he lives at. She does also suggest writing to Hogwarts and telling them that 'we don't want ...' [PS/SS Ch.3 p.31]. What? Harry not to go to Hogwarts? Far from being glad to see the back of him, she actually doesn't seem to want Harry to enter the (highly dangerous) wizarding world. (You know, the one that killed her sister?) Vernon perpetually threatens Harry with physical violence. He never canonically hits Harry [he just gets Dudley to do it for him]. Petunia doesn't threaten Harry. She does once, in canon, actually try to hit him. This is in CoS, after Harry has threatened Dudley with doing magic. Petunia's sister was killed by magic. In GoF, when Mr Weasley aims a wand at her precious Dudley, Petunia screams and throws herself between Dudley and Mr Weasley [GoF Ch.4 pg 47-48 UK hardback]. Petunia is very frightened of magic. So when Dudley tells her that Harry has done you-know-what at him, she 'aimed a heavy blow at his [Harry's] head with the soapy flying plan' [CoS p. 13 Ch. 1]. Immediately afterwards, she gives Harry a long list of jobs. The jobs are all outdoors, while Petunia stays indoors. Is she trying to make sure that her nephew's safely out of her reach? Having got angry enough to nearly hit him, is she making sure that she has no chance to lose her temper with him again? Again, compare this with Vernon, who repeatedly threatens Harry until GoF. By GoF, Harry has managed to come up with a bigger threat - his godfather Sirius. Vernon only stops when a bigger bully comes along. Petunia seems to try and stop herself. Finally: the diet. When Dudley goes on a diet, in GoF, Petunia insists that the 'whole family' goes on the diet. She favours Dudley by making sure that Harry gets smaller portions. The interesting thing, however, is that however much she resents and dislikes Harry, she quite clearly sees him as part of the family. So. Vernon is the 'active bully' in the Dursley-Harry relationship. Petunia seems to be the 'enabler' - she doesn't stop her husband bullying Harry. Vernon doesn't seem to have any real sense of relationship to Harry. Harry is a 'burden on his decent, hard- working relatives' [actually, that's a quote from Aunt Marge, but Vernon seems to have pretty much the same opinion]. Petunia does seem to have a sense of relationship to Harry. Her nephew is fed, clothed, kept safe, educated. She just doesn't seem to be able to love him. But like Snape, however much she doesn't love him, she has never wanted him *dead*. That's just what Harry thinks. ;-) Pip!Squeak (aka Pip) From alej437 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 15 01:42:10 2003 From: alej437 at yahoo.com (alej437) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 01:42:10 -0000 Subject: Arithmancy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55385 Hi all, I'm Alej, and new to the board. Anyways, I've been thinking of writing my own HP fanfic, but I'm stuck on one part. I wanted to put in a scene where a couple of characters are discussing Arithmancy, but I can't find anything that seems to explain it in any sort of detail. Does anybody know anything about Arithmancy that might help me, or at least know of some links I can try? Thanks, ~Alej~ From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Tue Apr 15 12:54:51 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 12:54:51 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Birthday; SHIP (FITD) In-Reply-To: <036c01c302b3$686aff30$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55386 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pennylin" wrote: > Hi all -- > > SHIP: Also of interest on the DVD is, of course, an interview with JKR and > Steve Kloves. In commenting on the Trio's interactions, Rowling noted that > Columbus had foreshadowed in this 2nd film something she didn't touch on > really until GoF and that is: "certain feelings between the *three* (3) of > them." > > Ahem. > > Between the *3* of them. > Admittedly Penny, I thought the same exact thing. The weird thing was I thought the same thing back when I saw the movie the first time. In particular, the scene where Hermione fixes Harry's glasses and of course the scene at end when Hermione hugs Harry, and shakes hands with Ron. Of course, this is the movie and not the books so I really won't discuss it anymore here. The truth is that I'm really not sure what ship I'm on. I really love the idea of H/Hr but logically R/Hr seems more supported by cannon. I guess I'll just float around the TBAY with my RASPBERRY life preserver (Refuse Any Ship Prefer Being Excited Reading Romance Yarn) Serena From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Tue Apr 15 16:34:54 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 12:34:54 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The JKR interview on the DVD: SHIP AND Shipping Mentality References: <20030415155513.75905.qmail@web80504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <025101c3036c$f65c47e0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55387 Heidi wrote: > Actually, what she said is that Columbus, who is, > according to JKR, in the dark as to many, if not all, > future plot points, suggested in the CoS film > something that is not suggested in CoS, the book, but > which is suggested in GoF - feelings between "the > three of them." I can't see how this can be read in > any other way. He's definitely not as "in the dark" as we are. He's working DIRECTLY with the author! I'm sure there are things (even if they're minor things) that he knows that we do not. Chris doesn't suggest anything between Harry and Hermione in CoS that i saw. But he did suggest a R/Her dynamic by the tension between them at the end in the hug/hand-shake scene. And JKR suggested a R/Her dynamic in the quarrels they had over the dance issue. I'm not sure how anyone could see/read those scenes and not see the dynamic there...it just seems that obvious to me. But perhaps some of you are calling this a "red herring" as well and thinking that JKR is gonna pull a fast one on us. It's certainly possible. Can some H/Her shippers give me some examples of canon that lead you to believe in the H/Her ship? > Do you mean to say that you believe that a romance > between Ron and Hermione exists within the pages of > GoF? In other words, do you think that in the > timeframe of GoF, but off the page, they are snogging, > holding hands, etc.? I can't speak for Eileen, but for me, goodness no! The quarrels between them and Harry's reaction to them ARE in canon, and that is enough to support the future possibility of a R/Her ship. Can you give me another reason that Ron was so incredibly jealous of Hermione dancing with Krum that he ignored his own date completely? > Which line of speculation? As someone who ships > neither R/Hr not H/Hr, I'm admittedly clueless as to > what you're refering to here. I'm sure she was referring to JKR saying that H/Her are "platonic" friends. ~Katy~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aja_1991 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 15 17:31:10 2003 From: aja_1991 at yahoo.com (aja_1991) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 17:31:10 -0000 Subject: Hagrid in Knockturn Alley In-Reply-To: <000701c3034c$3dd6c8f0$0e010001@jmd2000> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55388 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy Davis" wrote: > JKR has said in the past (dunno where or when!!) that there are some > significant happenings in COS. I'm just wondering what peoples views are on > the reason why Hagrid was in Knockturn Alley when Harry miss-dialed with his > floo power. Hagrid said he was looking for the "Flesh Eating Slug > Repellant". Is he telling the whole truth? My personal guess: Hagrid is spying for Dumbledore. If Knockturn Alley is where all the WW nasties hang out, and where they go to buy and sell things that "might be embarassing if the Ministry came to call".... it seems to me a good way to learn if there's news of V coming back is to have somebody waltz in and just listen to the chatter, observe if there are more visitors than usual, ask Mr. Borgin how business has been, etc. Snape, of course, would be another good choice (and might still be doing so), but Snape is more likely to ask piercing questions and seem to be spying, whereas Hagrid probably has everybody convinced he's looking for a new pet to replace Fluffy and Norbert, and they just don't sell many three headed dogs in Diagon Alley... So based on that assumption, Hagrid didn't expect to see Harry there, so had to think on his feet (not usually a strong point for Hagrid), and that was the best he could come up with quickly. Harry was probably so relieved to see a familiar (friendly) face that he didn't question it. aja_1991 From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Tue Apr 15 18:00:25 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 14:00:25 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Gleam of Something Like Triumph (WAS: HP and LV die together?) References: Message-ID: <000901c30378$e4621d60$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55389 Phyllis said: > So, here's what I think - I think that Voldemort will now perform his > various immortality spells and believe himself incapable of being > killed. And I think he won't be able to be killed by anyone except > Harry, because something about using Harry's blood in the > regeneration potion will allow Harry to kill him when no one else > can. But I also think that when Harry kills him, Harry will die as > well - once again, due to the link between Harry and Voldemort > created by the taking of Harry's blood for the potion. After reading your theories, i wanted to add my own. I agree with everything you've said. BUT i think that the link between Harry and Petigrew will save Harry in the end, even in Voldemort is killed. Perhaps Peter will die instead of Harry...willingly or unwillingly i'm not sure of. But his blood is also in the mix, so i'm sure it will come into play. ~Katy~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aja_1991 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 15 18:37:22 2003 From: aja_1991 at yahoo.com (aja_1991) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 18:37:22 -0000 Subject: The Gleam of Something Like Triumph (WAS: HP and LV die together?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55390 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: > > So, here's what I think - I think that Voldemort will now perform his > various immortality spells and believe himself incapable of being > killed. And I think he won't be able to be killed by anyone except > Harry, because something about using Harry's blood in the > regeneration potion will allow Harry to kill him when no one else > can. But I also think that when Harry kills him, Harry will die as > well - once again, due to the link between Harry and Voldemort > created by the taking of Harry's blood for the potion. > Agreed, to a point. My slight variation - Dumbledore and Sirius are both aware the V will certainly try to regain his immortality status once he is again "alive" enough to become immortal (Vapormort not counting in that regard). It's likely that V's top priority is to regain that immortality as soon as possible, and no doubt the DEs will make sure that anyone coming to look for V in his vulnerable (read: mortal) state will meet a quick (or, depending on their mood, not-so-quick) death. And it's not likely that they can find V now, even if they knew where the graveyard was, as he's likely fled to some unknown location. (My guess is that Snape has some folks he can bully for that kind of info, and that's where he went at the end of GoF). So, just when Dumbledore and Sirius determine that their worst fears are realized, Harry tells them that Voldemort used Harry's blood. This is good news! Why? Well, that ancient spell V used to rebirth himself had a little footnote... If the foe whose blood is forcibly taken stays alive, that person will always have the power to kill V, regardless of any immortality enchantments. That means Harry, and only Harry, can kill V once the immortality kicks in. The gleam vanishes right away, because DD realises that if the DEs and V wanted Harry dead before, they'll *REALLY* want him dead now! The effort it will take to keep Harry alive will be monumental, hence the look of weariness. (I don't agree with the idea that killing V will kill Harry as well... no proof, just my feel for how this is progressing). aja_1991 From pakistani_muslim84 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 15 09:42:27 2003 From: pakistani_muslim84 at yahoo.com (pakistani_muslim84) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 09:42:27 -0000 Subject: New thought on Voldemort and Harry's Powers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55391 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Liz Martin" wrote: > Then I remembered about what had happend to Voldemort when > he had tried to kill Harry, that his powers were taken from him and was > left with nothing than a spirit. What if his powers transfered from > himself to Harry leaving Volde with nothing and Harry with everything > or at least most of his powers? > > In turn making Harry his downfall.That possibly if he kills Harry that he will also die? > > Because so far Volde has not been able to kill Harry even with him away from > Dumbledore. Anyway that was it. Sorry for it being so long. A nice one Liz. I am not aware if it has been brought up before or not but it has surely been discussed in Fiction Alley. One of the theories about Voldemort's downfall is the same that you said here so it is a possibility. It's nice to see that you have spotted and thought over it. "pakistani_muslim" From jbenne27 at tampabay.rr.com Tue Apr 15 13:59:30 2003 From: jbenne27 at tampabay.rr.com (James Bennett) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 09:59:30 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hagrid in Knockturn Alley In-Reply-To: <000701c3034c$3dd6c8f0$0e010001@jmd2000> Message-ID: <000001c30357$3cf2a980$d5175c18@jamesz9ibq8rxr> No: HPFGUIDX 55392 -----Original Message----- From: Jeremy Davis JKR has said in the past (dunno where or when!!) that there are some significant happenings in COS. I'm just wondering what peoples views are on the reason why Hagrid was in Knockturn Alley when Harry miss-dialed with his floo power. Hagrid said he was looking for the "Flesh Eating Slug Repellant". Is he telling the whole truth? I think he was telling the truth remember in COS he later used the Flesh Eating Slug Repellant on Madam Sprouts plants. Remember they always send Hagrid to go place most won't go. Like into the Dark Forest and so on!!! "James Bennett" From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 15 19:52:35 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 12:52:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Arithmancy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030415195235.69266.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55393 --- Alej wrote: > Hi all, I'm Alej, and new to the board. Anyways, I've been thinking of > writing my own HP fanfic, but I'm stuck on one part. I wanted to put > in a scene where a couple of characters are discussing Arithmancy, but > I can't find anything that seems to explain it in any sort of detail. > Does anybody know anything about Arithmancy that might help me, or at > least know of some links I can try? Thanks, Arithmancy is a type of numerology, using the letters in one's name and numbers assigned to those letters to determine a person's personality and future. There's a nify Arithmancy calculator at http://www.sorcererscompanion.net/arithmancy.html and a quick Google search for "Arithmancy" will give you a number of sites. Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From jizzkitty420 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 15 19:56:25 2003 From: jizzkitty420 at yahoo.com (Giselle Sicle) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 12:56:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dementor question In-Reply-To: <015301c30381$0f9fc7e0$06570043@hppav> Message-ID: <20030415195625.34541.qmail@web13103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55394 Eric Oppen wrote: How fast can Dementors move? If Dementors can apparate, what's to prevent them apparating off Azkaban Island every so often for a yummy snack on the mainland? --peering around uneasily for Dementors, Eric Eric I wasn't aware that Azkaban is an island. Where in canon does it say that? I'm not trying to be rude I just want to know if I missed it or something, but back to your question. IMO I don't think they can apparate but perhaps Fudge can apparate into Azkaban and poof a dementor out with him. It is only a theory, and no the prisoners can not do the same because of the effect the dementors have on them, i think. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From starropal at hotmail.com Tue Apr 15 20:03:12 2003 From: starropal at hotmail.com (Eunice) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 20:03:12 -0000 Subject: The Gleam of Something Like Triumph (WAS: HP and LV die together?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55395 Phyllis: > And also - it's the use of Harry's blood that triggers the gleam. > While it's not explicitly stated in GoF, presumably Harry informed > Dumbledore of Wormtail cutting his hand off for the potion before he > got to the part about Wormtail piercing his arm. So it's not the use > of human flesh or human blood that triggers the gleam, IMO - it's the > use of *Harry's* blood. Here's my theory (I haven't been here that long, so if someone else has brought this up all apologies): "B-blood of the enemy... forcibly taken... you will... resurrect your foe." GoF, ch32, pg 642 U.S. paperback Now just before that Wormtail has cut off his hand. Between the two actions its never mentioned that he -wiped off- the dagger. So along with the enemy's blood we have the servant's, while one is by force the other is willingly (if a bit unknowingly). While you may say, "But Wormtail's blood is already in there with the hand, it shouldn't make a difference." I say, there is an order to the ingredients and that he messed up by mingling his blood with Harry's during step four of the rebirthing process. That there are certain requirements for each ingredient and Rat Boy just ruined it. That because it wasn't mixed properly, the cake will fall. What the specifics will be to that I don't know, but Dumbledore does. Star Opal who hopes she has properly put into words what she has in her head ^_^ From wsweet at law.cwsl.edu Tue Apr 15 20:02:27 2003 From: wsweet at law.cwsl.edu (wallacesweet) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 20:02:27 -0000 Subject: Life Dept Transfer? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55396 While reading the recent discussion about LV + HP dying together and the infamous "gleam." I started to think about Wormtail's blood also being a part of the potion...would a wizard's life debt be a part of their blood? Is it possible that in using the blood of a person who owes HP a life debt LV now has a life dept to his enemy? I have just began to think about this and would love to hear any thoughts about it. Wallace Sweet: long time member, first time posting From tammy at mauswerks.net Tue Apr 15 20:13:38 2003 From: tammy at mauswerks.net (Tammy Rizzo) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 16:13:38 -0400 Subject: SHIPping? I can't decide. In-Reply-To: References: <036c01c302b3$686aff30$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: <3E9C2FB2.24103.1C5C42F@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 55397 On 15 Apr 2003 at 12:54, Serena Moonsilver wrote: > The truth is that I'm really not sure what ship I'm on. I really love > the idea of H/Hr but logically R/Hr seems more supported by canon. I > guess I'll just float around the TBAY with my RASPBERRY life > preserver (Refuse Any Ship Prefer Being Excited Reading Romance Yarn) > > > Serena For myself, I can see entirely too many shipping possibilities in canon to settle for any single one, *even* the almost all-inclusive FITD. I can easily see R/H -- any boy and girl who snipe at eachother so much have GOT to get together, right? After all, just look at all the cultural history for such matches? Everything from 'Pride and Prejudice' to 'Father Goose' to ''. It's an established and recognized 'fact'. Which is one reason I don't subscribe to it here. On the other hand, I can also easily see Ha/Hr -- the two of them are very close, after all, and do show a great deal of affection for eachother, though still on a brother/sister level, but look at the cultural history for best friends becoming lovers. It's another established and recognized 'fact', one which plays out much more often in real life than the romanticized antagonistic friends of above. Which is one reason I don't subscribe to it here, either. On the third hand, I can also see H/G eventually -- they may not be close now, but Ginny is still quite obvious in HER hopes, and look (again) at the cultural history for the best friend's sister who suddenly blossoms and knocks yer socks off. Yet another 'fact' well known and accepted in literary romances, which is, again, one reason why I don't subscribe to that one, either. We also have, to a lesser degree (since we really only have Harry's POV to go by), such ships as Ginny/Neville or even Draco/Hermione or Draco/Ginny, although I can't pull any canon for THOSE two out of my hat! Still, I *can* see the possibilities, based, again, upon cultural history and extrapolation, as well as a healthy dose of wild speculation and a fondness for the Redeemed!Rogue line of theories. So, I guess I'll kinda lash my RASPBERRY life preserver to Serena's, and we'll just float around the Bay. "Tammy" From dkewpie at pacbell.net Tue Apr 15 20:30:18 2003 From: dkewpie at pacbell.net (Kewpie) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 20:30:18 -0000 Subject: what about Hagrid with Crossbow? (Was Re: Hagrid in Knockturn Alley) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55398 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aja_1991" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy Davis" wrote: > > JKR has said in the past (dunno where or when!!) that there are some > > significant happenings in COS. I'm just wondering what peoples > views are on > > the reason why Hagrid was in Knockturn Alley when Harry miss- dialed > with his > > floo power. Hagrid said he was looking for the "Flesh Eating Slug > > Repellant". Is he telling the whole truth? > Actually I'm more puzzled by Hagrid arming with Crossbow and ready to strike when Harry and Ron visited him under the invisibility clock in the chapter "Cornelius Fudge" in CoS. What was that all about? What was Hagrid so afraid of (he "nearly extinguished the fire, spilling water from the kettle on it, and then smashed the teapot with a nervous jerk of his massive hand" US edition CoS P.260)? I really don't think he's armed because of the basilik right? It seems like he knows someone who's very dangerous will show up. Was he waiting or expecting somebody? (Obviously he didn't expect Fudge or Lucius to be there right? Beside he wouldn't point a weapon at them anyways). Personally I think that was the most fishy thing took place in CoS and could be the "hint" JKR was mentioning. Anyone has any theory on this? Joan From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Tue Apr 15 20:11:10 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 16:11:10 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dementor question References: <20030415195625.34541.qmail@web13103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <009001c3038b$294ff7f0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55399 Giselle wrote: > Eric I wasn't aware that Azkaban is an island. > Where in canon does it say that? Canon says that Sirius Black swam away from Azkaban when he escaped, that's how we know it's on an island. ~Katy~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From heidit at netbox.com Tue Apr 15 21:04:29 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (heidi tandy) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 14:04:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Arithmancy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030415210429.13251.qmail@web80510.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55400 Alej wrote: > I wanted to put > in a scene where a couple of characters are > discussing Arithmancy, but > I can't find anything that seems to explain it in > any sort of detail. > Does anybody know anything about Arithmancy that > might help me, or at > least know of some links I can try? Thanks, You might want to take a peek at this thread: http://www.fictionalley.org/fictionalleypark/forums/showthread.php?&threadid=14650 You should also check out this page of the Lexicon: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/classes.html#Arithmancy In other words, it's not known from canon exactly what they do in arithmancy class. However, a google on the subject shows that there's a number of other sites, like this one http://www.paralumun.com/arithmancy.htm, which offer various definitions. But you can be creative, as you can see from the Lexicon that we don't have an enormous amount of canon to draw on. Heidi *Ask me about Nimbus - 2003 :: the first international Harry Potter symposium* http://www.hp2003.org From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Tue Apr 15 21:15:58 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 21:15:58 -0000 Subject: Arithmancy & Dementor question In-Reply-To: <20030415195235.69266.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55401 Andrea wrote: > --- Alej wrote: >> Hi all, I'm Alej, and new to the board. Anyways, I've been thinking >> of writing my own HP fanfic, but I'm stuck on one part. I wanted to >> put in a scene where a couple of characters are discussing >> Arithmancy, but I can't find anything that seems to explain it in >> any sort of detail. Does anybody know anything about Arithmancy that >> might help me, or at least know of some links I can try? Thanks, > > Arithmancy is a type of numerology, using the letters in one's name > and numbers assigned to those letters to determine a person's > personality and future. There's a nify Arithmancy calculator at > http://www.sorcererscompanion.net/arithmancy.html and a quick Google > search for "Arithmancy" will give you a number of sites. > > Andrea Unfortunately, in this matter this is not as clear cut. While arithmancy is a form of divination based on numbers, it has been discussed before if that is the case in potterverse. The main reason to believe this is that Hermione likes it, while at the same time disregards divination as not exact. In fact, she drops divination altoghether, but keeps arithmancy in 4th year nonetheless. All this implies, for many listees (including me) that JKR has something else in mind with arithmancy - maybe some sort of mathematical study of magic, we don't know. To respond to Alej, there isn't any canon about what arithmancy lessons might be like, only a couple of references by Hermione (and how she didn't get any homework the first day of class, IIRC). You're going to have to invent it, alhough if you ask me, I wouldn't make an issue of calculating the future - whatever JKR has in mind, I don't think that's part of it. Eric Oppen wrote: > How fast can a Dementor travel? We don't know - there is little canon about them. They have been mentioned to "glide" and my impression from the descriptions is that they move deceptively fast when needed (like when one got out of control and kissed Barty Jr.). At any rate, I doubt that they can move faster than a running man - tops the speed of a horse, I'd say > Or are there other Dementors than > the ones at Azkaban (and Hogwarts during PoA)? Yes, certainly. It seems that they're available as escorts when required by MoM officials. > So when "Moody" turned out to be Barty Crouch, Jr., which apparently > surprised even Professor Dumbledore, he'd have had to get one _fast_ > to have one ready to roll when he was called into the castle. I always understood that Fudge had been going around with a dementor as bodyguard, but that before that moment he had not dared bring it into the castle (since Dumbledore had said "never again" after the disaster at the end of PoA). However, when Fudge hears about the rumours, he throws all sensibilities to the winds and pulls rank to take his pet dementor with him just in case. By the way, this situation has been pointed out as a sign of FIE (Fudge Is Evil), since it almost seems as a planned execution of an ally that has spoken too much. I myself don't think that is the case: if The Ministry of Magic was in Voldemort's pocket, Voldemort would've already won the war, almost, but instead he's scrambling around trying to get his DEs back under his thumb. I prefer to see the kiss incident as an indication of Fudge's incompetence, and the inherent danger and discontrol of the dementors. > Can Dementors apparate? Can they, if they can apparate, apparate > onto the Hogwarts grounds? We know that _wizards and witches_ can't > do this, at least according to _Hogwarts: A History,_ but we've seen > (in CoS) that house-elves apparently can do something of the sort. > > Eric We have indeed seen house elves display amazing powers, but I can't bring myself to believe that Dementors can apparate - they would then be unstoppable, with no way to control them or bargain whatsoever. Canon wise, there is little one way or the other, so you're free to propose your own theory, but I find it very unlikely that Dementors posses any such magical power, or they would've made use of it by now. Giselle Sicle wrote: > I wasn't aware that Azkaban is an island. Where in canon does it say > that? Black mentions he had to swim to the coast in his dog form after escaping Azkaban. The combination of needing to swim and going to a coast indicates that Azkaban is indeed in a island. Besides, it was confirmed by JKR in an interview that it was in an island in the North sea. Unfortunately, this last remark isn't considered full canon - the clues in the books indicate that the island is most likely found in the channel islands, not in the North Sea, so it is open to discussion. > IMO I don't think they can > apparate but perhaps Fudge can apparate into Azkaban and poof a > dementor out with him. It is only a theory, and no the prisoners can > not do the same because of the effect the dementors have on them, I > think. Several things go against this theory: one, that it is very unlikely that apparition can be performed with passengers, especially one of the sort of a dementor who could make you loose the energy to reach your destination (does increasing manyfold the chnace to splinch). Furthermore, if Azkaban is indeed in a channel island, Fudge probably isn't powerful enough to apparate all the way from there to near Hogwarts (even Dumbledore takes the broom to go from Hogwarts to London). Third, it is very likely that Azkaban is as protected from apparition as is Hogwarts, since it's the logical place to put such restriction. For one thing, new prisoners aren't yet affected by dementors to the point were they cannot attempt apparition to escape (at least, I'd see the simple possibility an unnecesary security risk existing anti-apparition charms), and second, the dementors haven't been guardians of Azkaban forever - it was one of the changes Fudge himself made when he got into the office, IIRC - so before that, there had to be a way to prevent prisoners from escaping that didn't depend on the effects of dementors on nearby people. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 15 21:20:01 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 21:20:01 -0000 Subject: Portkeys and Crouch Jr.'s Ulterior Motive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55402 The Catlady wrote: > I am one of many who believe that the Triwizard Cup was already a > Portkey, programmed to transport the first person who touched it to > the maze's edge next to the judges' viewing stand, and Croody > merely added an additional 'stop' before that stop. Why do that > instead of turning, say, Harry's toothbrush into a Portkey and > capturing him much earlier in the year? My answer: because normally > one cannot Portkey at Hogwarts any more than one can Apparate at > Hogwarts, but Dumbledore created an exception for this particular > Portkey. Steve bboy_mn's answer: because Portkeys are so difficult > or tedious to make that it is tremendously easier to re-program one > that has already been made. Now me: I don't agree that the Triwizard Cup was already a portkey that Crouch Jr. just added an extra stop to. Under the veritaserum, Crouch Jr. said: "I offered to carry the Triwizard Cup into the maze before dinner ... Turned it into a Portkey" (GoF, Ch. 35). He doesn't say that he added an extra stop, he says that he *turned* the Cup into a Portkey, which suggests to me that the Cup didn't become a Portkey until Crouch Jr. turned it into one. I also can't recall any references in canon to a wizard not being able to use a Portkey on the Hogwarts grounds. We're repeatedly told that one cannot apparate or disapparate on the Hogwarts grounds, but I can't recall being told that one cannot use a Portkey on the Hogwarts grounds. The fact that a Portkey did work on the Hogwarts grounds leads me to believe that Portkeys always work on the Hogwarts grounds - I don't see how Dumbledore could make an exception, since I've never heard of him making an exception to the disapparating/apparating rule (and it would have been a heck of a lot easier to let Sirius disapparate rather than sending Harry and Hermione to rescue him on Buckbeak through the time-turner). I also don't see any evidence that Portkeys are difficult to make, especially in light of how many needed to be produced to transport huge numbers of wizards to the QWC. I think the Cup was chosen as the portkey (versus a toothbrush or some other object) so Voldemort could control the timing of Harry's arrival at his rebirthing party. So if Crouch Jr. didn't add an extra stop, you ask, why did the Cup return Harry to Hogwarts from the graveyard? Ah ... glad you asked! Because I believe that Crouch Jr. wanted Harry to escape from the graveyard so that he could be the one to kill Harry. As he tells Harry: "The Dark Lord didn't manage to kill you, Potter, and he *so* wanted to ... Imagine how he will reward me, when he finds I have done it for him. I gave you to him - the thing he needed above all to regenerate - and then I killed you for him. I will be honoured beyond all other Death Eaters. I will be his dearest, his closest supporter ... closer than a son ... " (GoF, Ch. 35). In my theory, Crouch Jr. also suspected (or knew) that Voldemort would subject Harry to the Imperius Curse in the graveyard, so he trained Harry to resist the Curse to facilitate his escape. When Hermione complains about Crouch Jr. he's putting them all under the Imperius Curse, he responds: "If you'd rather learn the hard way - when someone's putting it on you so they can control you completely..." (GoF, Ch. 15). IMO, this is meant for Harry - he's putting Harry under the Imperius Curse so that Voldemort will not be able to control him completely. And Crouch Jr. assigns them extra reading on resisting the Imperius Curse just to make sure Harry's got it down. Crouch Jr. knew (or suspected) that Voldie would try the Cruciatus and Avada Kedavra curses on Harry, so he showed them to Harry so he would be prepared. Crouch Jr. says repeatedly that he's showing the Unforgiveable Curses to the students because "you've got to know." IMO, this is aimed at Harry - it's Harry that's "got to know." So, in my theory, in order to become Voldie's #1 DE, and to have Voldie become the father figure he was seeking, Crouch Jr. helped Harry prepare for the curses he would likely face in the graveyard, and programmed the Portkey to allow Harry to escape the graveyard and return to Hogwarts so that he could be the one to finish Harry off. ~Phyllis From crazyrash81 at hotmail.com Tue Apr 15 20:48:27 2003 From: crazyrash81 at hotmail.com (rashm1) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 20:48:27 -0000 Subject: Re Is Harry gay?? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55403 I don't really think so, i mean not many books aimed at adults have same sex story lines, let alone those for children. Harry doesn't react to Fleur, probably because a The poor boy's got the Triwizard to think about b He likes CHO! Also it does mention in GoF that Harry goes red after Fleur kisses him after the second task! Hope this clears things up, although you never know, i might be wrong! Rash xx PS I wonder what Snape thinks of Muggle borns, does it mention this anywhere in canon?? From Grumpermuffin87 at aol.com Tue Apr 15 21:05:37 2003 From: Grumpermuffin87 at aol.com (Grumpermuffin87 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 17:05:37 EDT Subject: Hagrid in Knockturn Alley Message-ID: <1e9.6a7c68a.2bcdce21@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55404 Giselle said: > In response to your Hagrid question. I have always believed that Hagrid > wasn't telling the entire truth. There is no mention of any flesh eating > slugs anywhere in CoS except in that scene. But then again perhaps that was > Hagrid's theory on what was killing his roosters, but the way I see it the > roosters weren't dying until after the school year began. What else could > he have been looking for in such a dark magic infested place? > I agree that Hagrid wasn't telling the entire truth also, but I really don't think he was doing anything bad there. I've always thought that Hagrid is doing a lot more for Dumbledore than we know. Dumbledore seems to trust him so much, and Hagrid seems to be the kind of person that would do anything for him. Dumbledore seems to keep up with news around him besides news from the Daily Prophet, like muggle newspapers for instance, so it would not suprise me at all if he sent someone every once in awhile down Knockturn Alley just to see if they overhear something. Although, thinking about it, Hagrid would not really be the ideal choice for this....Maybe Hagrid really did need the slug repellent and he was killing two birds with one stone? I don't know. I'm just speculating here. ~Muffin, a long-time lurker yet this is only her second post [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gandharvika at hotmail.com Tue Apr 15 22:36:04 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 22:36:04 +0000 Subject: (FILK) Gilderoy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55405 Gilderoy (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Nowhere Man_ by the Beatles) Midi is here: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Studio/7779/beatle11.html Hogwarts Professors: We don't like Gilderoy He thinks he's a real playboy What he does is just annoy Everybody Always shares his point of view Says that he knows what to do Everyone knows it's not true at all Gilderoy, it is clear Such a fake...why's he here? Gilderoy, all of us can See right through his ploy He's a fop, we guarantee With his smile in Witch Weekly Gilderoy, he's such a smarmy person Gilderoy always lies All his books are plagiarized Gilderoy, nothing he wrote Is the real McCoy* Doesn't have a single clue Knows not what he's going to do Cannot even put two and two together Gilderoy, go away You're worthless, do not stay Leave us all, if you did that we would be filled with joy We don't like Gilderoy He thinks he's a real playboy What he does is just annoy Everybody What he does is just annoy everybody What he does is just annoy everybody * A U.S. term meaning "genuine" -Gail B...does anybody remember the Beatles' animated "Yellow Submarine"? You know the scene, during this song, where the Nowhere Man is going around and around, waving goodbye and weeping as the Beatles are leaving him? I always cry at that scene. _________________________________________________________________ From grosich at nyc.rr.com Tue Apr 15 22:45:38 2003 From: grosich at nyc.rr.com (Gina R Rosich) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 18:45:38 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re Is Harry gay?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55406 On 4/15/03 4:48 PM, "rashm1" had this to say: > I don't really think so, i mean not many books aimed at adults have > same sex story lines, let alone those for children. Harry doesn't > react to Fleur, probably because > > a The poor boy's got the Triwizard to think about > b He likes CHO! > > Also it does mention in GoF that Harry goes red after Fleur kisses > him after the second task! > > Hope this clears things up, although you never know, i might be wrong! > > Rash xx > > PS I wonder what Snape thinks of Muggle borns, does it mention this > anywhere in canon?? > > > > Didn?t Harry react to the veelas at the world cup? That might also support Harry?s heterosexual orientation. I also doubt JKR will explicitly identify any of her characters as gay. But that doesn?t mean there aren?t any. Mind you, I am dead set on the idea that Draco is gay. He waaaay overreacts to Harry?s rejection of friendship. And he seems downright obsessed with the boy. As for Snape, it?s interesting. In all of canon, he?s never actually said the word muggle except in context of reading the news article to Ron and Harry in CoS. And that was a direct quote of the word muggle. We really have absolutely no idea what he thinks of muggleborns. All we know for sure is that he favors Slytherins. Gina (who is very obsessed with Snape and thinks he is 100% on Dumbledore?s side) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From flamingstarchows at att.net Tue Apr 15 23:02:56 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (FlamingStar Chows) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 18:02:56 -0500 Subject: How to deal with HP deaths References: Message-ID: <00e101c303a3$283c5120$2f0a570c@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 55407 from bboy_mn: But under any circumstances, if Harry dies, I predict a level of worldwide sadness, grief, and mourning the likes of which the world has never seen; a near crippling level of grief. ----Me---- My thoughts on the subject for quite some time is that is Harry dies, it will not be unlike when Leonard Nimoy attempted to kill off Spock...the reaction of the public was so overwhelming that they ended up bringing him back from the dead. I imagine Harry has even more fans that Spock did. ~Cathy~ From t.forch at mail.dk Tue Apr 15 23:12:11 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 01:12:11 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Gleam of Something Like Triumph (WAS: HP and LV die together?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030416005352.00d45ef0@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 55408 At 17:48 15-04-03 +0000, erisedstraeh2002 wrote: >And also - it's the use of Harry's blood that triggers the gleam. >While it's not explicitly stated in GoF, presumably Harry informed >Dumbledore of Wormtail cutting his hand off for the potion before he >got to the part about Wormtail piercing his arm. So it's not the use >of human flesh or human blood that triggers the gleam, IMO - it's the >use of *Harry's* blood. I read that passage just slightly differently. Let me quote the passage in question: " When Harry told of Wormtail piercing his arm with the dagger, however, Sirius let out a vehement exclamation; and Dumbledore stood up so quickly that Harry started. Dumbledore walked around the desk and told Harry to stretch out his arm. Harry showed them both the place where his robes were torn, and the cut beneath them. 'He said my blood would make him stronger than if he'd used someone else's,' Harry told Dumbledore. 'He said the protection my - my mother left in me - he'd have it, too. And he was right - he could touch me without hurting himself, he touched my face.' For a fleeting instant, Harry thought he saw a gleam of something like triumph in Dumbledore's eyes. But next second, Harry was sure he had imagined it, for when Dumbledore had returned to his seat behind the desk, he looked as old and weary as Harry had ever seen him. 'Very well,' he said, sitting down again. 'Voldemort has overcome that particular barrier. Harry, continue, please.' " Harry tells about Wormtail piercing his arm and Dumbledore then examines the cut. After that Harry continues by explaining /why/ Voldemort wanted to use Harry's blood. It seems that it must have been completely obviouse to Dumbledore already when he examines Harry's arm that Harry's blood had been used for the ritual - possibly Dumbledore even knows the ritual (and both its strengths and weaknesses). The gleam is described immediately after Harry tells that Voldemort could touch him, and I think that it is /that/ piece of information that triggers the gleam. Not the use of Harry's blood per se, but the fact that it made Voldemort capable of overcoming Harry's protection - or perhaps rather (using Voldemort's own words) that "the lingering protection his mother once gave him would then reside in [Voldemort's] veins too". We know a few things about the protection Lily left in Harry. According to Dumbledore (in PS): " 'Your mother died to save you. If there is one thing Voldemort cannot understand, it is love. He didn't realise that love as powerful as your mother's for you leaves its own mark. Not a scar, no visible sign ... to have been loved so deeply, even though the person who loved us is gone, will give us some protection forever. It is in your very skin. Quirrell, full of hatred, greed and ambition, sharing his soul with Voldemort, could not touch you for this reason. It was agony to touch a person marked by something so good.' " Voldemort cannot understand love. The protection (which now also resides in his veins) is, basically, an expression of love (combined with the sacrifice): I think this accounts for why Voldemort has overlooked some side effect of this, which Dumbledore (who obviously does understand love) is quick to realise. What exactly this side effect might be, I cannot guess, but I am sure that it will be related to Harry's protection specifically and not his blood in general. Troels From sushi at societyhappens.com Tue Apr 15 23:18:30 2003 From: sushi at societyhappens.com (Sushi) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 18:18:30 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re Is Harry gay?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030415175303.02c41e00@mail.societyhappens.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55409 Gina wrote, in response to rashm1's post: >Didn?t Harry react to the veelas at the world cup? That might also support >Harry?s heterosexual orientation. But it's never been explicitly stated that veela affect a person based on sexual orientation. It could be purely a gender-based thing. It's unlikely that every single wizard at the World Cup was straight, and, yet, I got the impression that ALL the men were staring and ALL the women were trying to get them to snap out of it. (Arthur wasn't as affected as Ron and Harry because he knew what the veela were, he wasn't just starting down the Path of Pubescent Hormonal Hell, and he knew enough to take his glasses off from the start.) You very seldom find anyone who goes 100% in either direction anyway - one of my best friends is as gay as they come, and yet we very nearly settled down together - so even in the case of a hardcore gay man, the veela might affect that fractional percentage of straightness lurking in his subconscious. Just to note, I'm thoroughly convinced that Lockhart was at least part veela. It's the only thing I can think of to explain *how* he's got every female in the wizarding world swooning over him. *rolls eyes* >I also doubt JKR will explicitly identify any of her characters as gay. But >that doesn?t mean there aren?t any. Mind you, I am dead set on the idea >that Draco is gay. He waaaay overreacts to Harry?s rejection of friendship. >And he seems downright obsessed with the boy. Ah, and it breaks my slashy little heart to say this, but I have to agree. As much as I would truly love to find out that Harry has a crush on Ron (or, better yet, Snape, but I'm weird that way), I think it's about as likely in canon as it would be to learn that Hagrid's size is only an illusion and he's actually a dwarf named Stinky Mel. Interesting point on Draco. Although, I can sort of see this applying more to Colin. (There's no way that boy is straight. That hero worship of his goes way beyond bordering on a crush.) Draco has always struck me as someone who's used to being the centre of attention and can't cope when Harry brushes him off. I can see where you're coming from, though. Huh. Great, now I'm picturing Harry telling Colin exactly what he thinks of the little peeping Tom, and Colin getting adopted by a certain Slytherin. That could get... messy. >Gina (who is very obsessed with Snape and thinks he is 100% on Dumbledore?s >side) Sushi, who is as well, but is pretty much convinced that Severus' loyalties aren't as clear as they might first appear (can you say, Dumbledore's got him by the tender bits?) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Tue Apr 15 23:32:59 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 23:32:59 -0000 Subject: broomsticks vs. flying carpets (was: It's all Lucius Malfoy's fault....) In-Reply-To: <3E9C406C.11586.43E4F0@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55410 Steve wrote: The sweep of a flying broom is made out of twigs. I believe the Firebolt has an Ash handle and Birch twig sweep. You might be able to move around clods or chunks of dirt, but for anything as as fine as dust or common household dirt, it truly would be worthless. It would be more like a very very fine rake than anything anyone would consider a functional broom. To a Muggle who has seen real world functional sweeping brooms, a flying broom would certainly seem very broom like, but I just can't see any Muggle looking at a sweep that coarse and seeing any function beyond kindling. END QUOTE. I reply: On the twigs ? aren't all broomsweeps (minus plastic and artificial materials) made of fine twigs? You might be thinking of larger twigs, like, tinder-sized twigs, but I believe that before modern materials came along, all brooms were made that way. As for functionality and utility I agree with you if the twigs are unreasonably large, which again, we don't know. I was just being semantic... We don't know for sure that it couldn't be used, is all I was saying, so in that sense, a muggle could use it to sweep, as could a wizard family. ;-) Again, I'd hope that they don't, but hey, no one's saying they couldn't. After all, Devika wrote: --- The following is from PoA, chapter 11, "The Firebolt:" [after Harry has shown Hermione the Firebolt:] "I don't think anyone should ride that broom just yet!" said Hermione shrilly. Harry and Ron looked at her. "What d'you think Harry's going to do with it--sweep the floor?" said Ron. --- So, Ron is aware that brooms can be used for sweeping, which I guess makes one wonder where he could get that idea, since he's so unfamiliar with the rest of the muggle world. You'd think, if brooms were only used for flying in the WW, then he wouldn't have come up with that. So, there are probably special brooms and carpets for flying, and normal brooms and carpets for sweeping and, er, sitting on the floor. And I'd guess that regular brooms and carpets can be enchanted to fly, but are not the same thing as a 'professionally made' version. And regarding the example of stepping on the carpet and it automatically lifting up into the air, I was being facetious ? I'd hope that no one would use their flying carpet that way. ;-) Steve wrote: Carpet manufacturing - even if a wizard manufactures a carpet as a flying carpet, he must indeed first make a carpet. Muggle made or wizard made, it is still a carpet. A broom on the other hand, is constructed for balance, comfort, and aerodynamics rather than functional sweeping ability. Any Muggle who looked at a flying broom, would see a really crappy sweeping broom worth nothing beyond the wood it was made from. END QUOTE. I reply: I guess I just don't see where you're going with this. A "brand name" flying carpet could easily have special construction needs, and could easily be built with comfort and aerodynamics in mind. For instance, 'flapping in the wind' seems like a problem that might be addressed this way. 'Weather resistant material.' 'Extra-fluffy soft for comfy seating.' That sort of stuff. I don't see why you're suggesting that the flying carpets aren't like the flying broomsticks in this regard. Just like a broom-maker makes the broom before it's enchanted, so does the carpet-maker make the carpet, and there probably are special design requirements for both. The difference between them is simply that we don't know what's going on with the "brand name" flying-carpets, because Britain has an embargo on them. Steve wrote: There is a large legion of people who believe that the Tri-Wizard's Cup was already a portkey which is why it was able to take Harry back to Hogwarts without being reprogrammed. The theory goes that fake!Moody only inserted a stop. I reply: I'm familiar with the abundance of Portkey theories out there, and like with the conjecture on the carpet, I just don't get it. Not that I disagree necessarily with any of them, just that I tend to fall back on the canon when I don't know what to think. And as far as what happened with Crouch, Jr., I believe his confession under Veritaserum. "I offered to carry the Triwizard Cup into the maze before dinner," whispered Barty Crouch. "Turned it into a Portkey." (GoF, US paperback, Ch.35, 691) I understand that a lot of the necessity for the Portkey theories derives from the fact that Harry uses the Triwizard Cup to get back to Hogwarts after Priori Incantantem. In that case, all we have is conjecture ? we don't know how he did that, or who turned the cup into a Portkey, and although I do like the layering idea, again, that's all theorizing. Creative theorizing, but it's not confirmed fact, y'know? So, we have to be careful when we talk about these things - it's easy to confuse fact and theory when it comes to this stuff - I do it all the time myself. But as far as Crouch, Jr. goes, he says that he `turned it into a Portkey.' So it must've been easy. And even if he `added a layer,' he was able to do it without difficulty. Which is why I said that we don't have any evidence to suggest that it's a difficult process. I do see where you're going with your reasoning, and with the possibility that he had been prepping the cup for a potentially difficult procedure for a while, but all I'm saying is that it's not canon... yet. ;-) -Tom From hp_lexicon at yahoo.com Tue Apr 15 23:59:10 2003 From: hp_lexicon at yahoo.com (hp_lexicon) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 23:59:10 -0000 Subject: Arithmancy In-Reply-To: <20030415210429.13251.qmail@web80510.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55411 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, heidi tandy wrote: > > You should also check out this page of the Lexicon: > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/classes.html#Arithmancy > There's a better page in the Lexicon, although it really doesn't give much more information: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/arithmancy.html Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon "home of the most accurate HP timelines in the world" From annemehr at yahoo.com Wed Apr 16 00:16:21 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 00:16:21 -0000 Subject: The Gleam of Something Like Triumph (WAS: HP and LV die together?) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030416005352.00d45ef0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55412 Okay, I am perfectly willing to jump into a "Gleam" discussion again -- at least until June 21st!! --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Troels Forchhammer wrote: > Let me quote the passage in question: > " When Harry told of Wormtail piercing his arm with the > dagger, however, Sirius let out a vehement exclamation; and > Dumbledore stood up so quickly that Harry started. Dumbledore > walked around the desk and told Harry to stretch out his arm. > Harry showed them both the place where his robes were torn, > and the cut beneath them. > 'He said my blood would make him stronger than if he'd used > someone else's,' Harry told Dumbledore. 'He said the > protection my - my mother left in me - he'd have it, too. And > he was right - he could touch me without hurting himself, he > touched my face.' > For a fleeting instant, Harry thought he saw a gleam of > something like triumph in Dumbledore's eyes. But next second, > Harry was sure he had imagined it, for when Dumbledore had > returned to his seat behind the desk, he looked as old and > weary as Harry had ever seen him. > 'Very well,' he said, sitting down again. 'Voldemort has > overcome that particular barrier. Harry, continue, please.' " > > Harry tells about Wormtail piercing his arm and Dumbledore then > examines the cut. Annemehr: Dumbledore doesn't just examine the cut, he stood up suddenly enough to *startle* Harry. It almost seems as though he's reacting to the fact that Wormtail cut him. Sirius' reaction can easily be put down to the fact that he's just found out that someone has injured the one person in the world who means the most to him. But Dumbledore's reaction seems to indicate that Wormtail's act of cutting Harry has some startling significance. >After that Harry continues by explaining /why/ > Voldemort wanted to use Harry's blood. It seems that it must > have been completely obviouse to Dumbledore already when he > examines Harry's arm that Harry's blood had been used for the > ritual - possibly Dumbledore even knows the ritual (and both > its strengths and weaknesses). Annemehr: If Dumbledore knew the ritual already, wouldn't he have recognised it by Harry's description before Harry told of his arm being cut? If Dumbledore knew, it must have been obvious to him already why Harry was tied to that gravestone, and he wouldn't have been startled to hear that Wormtail had cut Harrry's arm to draw blood. Unless -- maybe Dumbledore didn't expect Wormtail to be able to actually do it because of the life debt? On the other hand, perhaps Dumbledore did not know the specific ritual. He still could have been surprised that Wormtail was able to cut Harry. In any case, he approaches Harry to examine the cut and ponder what it means. > > The gleam is described immediately after Harry tells that > Voldemort could touch him, and I think that it is /that/ > piece of information that triggers the gleam. Not the use of > Harry's blood per se, but the fact that it made Voldemort > capable of overcoming Harry's protection - or perhaps rather > (using Voldemort's own words) that "the lingering protection > his mother once gave him would then reside in [Voldemort's] > veins too". Annemehr: I'm not sure of this. It is possible that hearing of the cut causes Dumbledore to startle, and hearing that Voldemort can touch Harry causes the gleam. *On the other hand,* I could read it that, hearing of the cut causes Dumbledore to startle and *to start contemplating what that implies.* All the while Harry is explaining *why* Wormtail cut him, Dumbledore may be absorbed in his own thoughts about what the implications are. The gleam may be based on whatever his conclusions are to this thought process and have nothing to do with the fact that Voldemort can now touch Harry. > > We know a few things about the protection Lily left in > Harry. According to Dumbledore (in PS): > " 'Your mother died to save you. If there is one thing > Voldemort cannot understand, it is love. > > Voldemort cannot understand love. The protection (which now > also resides in his veins) is, basically, an expression of > love (combined with the sacrifice): I think this accounts for > why Voldemort has overlooked some side effect of this, which > Dumbledore (who obviously does understand love) is quick to > realise. > > What exactly this side effect might be, I cannot guess, but I > am sure that it will be related to Harry's protection specifically > and not his blood in general. > > Troels Annemehr: This could well be true. BUT, on the other hand, if the gleam is related to the fact of the cut, then the "looking as old and weary as he ever did" may relate to disappointment that Voldemort can indeed touch Harry now. Of course, the idea that the gleam is in response to the cutting of Harry's arm seems to imply that Dumbledore is glad that Wormtail cut Harry. This, of course, is a large can of worms! Dumbledore does know things about life-debts that we do not. As Wormtail did nothing life-threatening in the cut itself, it may not be surprising that the life-debt didn't prevent it. Maybe an indebted wizard who injures the one who saved him makes himself even *more* vulnerable or indebted somehow? Cursed in some way analogous to surviving on unicorn's blood? Injuring one who has saved your life must have some implications in ancient magic! Maybe this, along with the presence of Wormtail's hand in the potion, could further weaken Voldemort in ways he doesn't forsee? Even though the hand went in before the cutting was done? I could point out that it is doubtful that Voldemort even knows about Wormatail's life-debt, so its effect on the potion, whatever that may be, could not have been foreseen by him (unlike the phoenix tears). As to the fact that the use of Harry's blood in the potion seems to have made Voldemort able to physically touch Harry now, I do agree with Troels that this *has* to have some consequences to Voldemort. I am just not sure whether this is what caused the "gleam" in Dumbledore's eye or even if Dumbledore himself knows what the consequences may be. After all, this has never happened before in his experience, I am sure. It may take him some time to work it all out. Annemehr who is finding this more fun than she thought a gleam discussion would be... From themoondoggirl at hotmail.com Wed Apr 16 01:09:39 2003 From: themoondoggirl at hotmail.com (themoondoggirl) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 01:09:39 -0000 Subject: what about Hagrid with Crossbow? (Was Re: Hagrid in Knockturn Alley) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55413 ***delurks*** --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kewpie" wrote: > >> Actually I'm more puzzled by Hagrid arming with Crossbow and ready to > strike when Harry and Ron visited him under the invisibility clock in > the chapter "Cornelius Fudge" in CoS. What was that all about? What > was Hagrid so afraid of (he "nearly extinguished the fire, spilling > water from the kettle on it, and then smashed the teapot with a > nervous jerk of his massive hand" US edition CoS P.260)? I really > don't think he's armed because of the basilik right? It seems like he > knows someone who's very dangerous will show up. Was he waiting or > expecting somebody? (Obviously he didn't expect Fudge or Lucius to be > there right? Beside he wouldn't point a weapon at them anyways). > Personally I think that was the most fishy thing took place in CoS > and could be the "hint" JKR was mentioning. Anyone has any theory on > this? > > Joan Wow, it's been like two years since I've actually posted anything here, but I just had to say I second your motion. Last night I was watching the CoS DVD and my friends and I were laughing, just imagining that he had really planned to shoot Fudge or Dumbledore (because, really, who else would he have been expecting?). This Hagrid-with-the-crossbow has bothered me ever since I first read CoS, and I agree, this might be the fishy thing JKR is referring to. It's subtle enough that anyone who wasn't paying attention to gloss over, but the fact that it's in the book (and in the movie) makes me take a second glance. moon-dog, who will now go and lurk for another year or so...wait, I'l probably stop by around June 22nd... From melclaros at yahoo.com Wed Apr 16 01:48:25 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 01:48:25 -0000 Subject: what about Hagrid with Crossbow? (Was Re: Hagrid in Knockturn Alley) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55414 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "themoondoggirl" wrote: > This > Hagrid-with-the-crossbow has bothered me ever since I first read CoS, > and I agree, this might be the fishy thing JKR is referring to. It's > subtle enough that anyone who wasn't paying attention to gloss over, > but the fact that it's in the book (and in the movie) makes me take a > second glance. > now me: I agree! I am pretty sure this is the "bit". There's absolutely NO reason for that scene to be in the book unless it's forshadowing and LESS for it to be in the movie when there are more outwardly important or cinematic moments that could have been put in its place. What, or who was he expecting? Mel From siriuskase at earthlink.net Wed Apr 16 02:40:09 2003 From: siriuskase at earthlink.net (siriuskase) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 02:40:09 -0000 Subject: Hagrid in Knockturn Alley In-Reply-To: <000701c3034c$3dd6c8f0$0e010001@jmd2000> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55415 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy Davis" wrote: > JKR has said in the past (dunno where or when!!) that there are some > significant happenings in COS. I'm just wondering what peoples views are on > the reason why Hagrid was in Knockturn Alley when Harry miss-dialed with his > floo power. Hagrid said he was looking for the "Flesh Eating Slug > Repellant". Is he telling the whole truth? While I agree that what Hagrid said about his reasons for being there was kinda lame, it is also significant that Harry was seen there. This significance is reinforced by Hagrid saying it isn't good for Harry to be seen there. To make things worse, a couple of wizards looked at him and made some sort of comment when he came out of the shop just moments after the Malforys. And then that Hagrid yelled at Harry by name. so lots of folks know about Harry's trip to knockturn alley and they might find his excuse (mispronounced Diagon Alley) as lame as Hagrid's. sirius kase From brngwyn at yahoo.com Tue Apr 15 23:20:45 2003 From: brngwyn at yahoo.com (Brangwyn) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 16:20:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What If... Dumbledore had included Fudge in GoF Ch.35? In-Reply-To: <1050399690.2513.93799.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030415232045.82836.qmail@web20509.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55416 This is my first post to the list, so please be kind ;) Tom wrote: > What we do know about Fudge's reaction to the Dark Mark on Snape's arm is that he "recoiled." (GoF, US paperback, Ch.36, 709) Following that reaction, Snape explains the mark: > So, I gathered a few things from this exchange. One, Fudge (unlike Dumbledore, who admits that he knew about the Dark Mark 'tattoo' in GoF, Ch.30, "The Pensieve") did not know that the Death Eaters had received this mark. Otherwise, Snape wouldn't have to explain. > Two, the mark is a famous symbol, so he does know *what* it is, but he doesn't know *why* it's there, and having heard about this for the very first time, I'm not surprised that he is so taken aback. That's shocking news. > Three, if he *had* known about these things (as Dumbledore did) then perhaps he wouldn't have replied "I don't know what you and your staff are playing at, Dumbledore, but I've had enough." (GoF, US paperback, Ch.36, 710) Clearly, he is very upset by all of this new and freaky information. If he'd known earlier, then this would be easier to digest, because he'd have been prepared. And it would also have been yet more proof that Voldemort was back. But again, since Fudge is in the dark on the Dark Mark, he's not in the position to simply accept Snape's word... he's being told another ridiculous tale that contradicts what he knows, and as he points out, this is becoming a pattern. Me: And, four, it seems Fudge didn't know Snape was a Death Eater. But why not? If Snape's trial was as public as Barty Crouch's and Karkaroff's, and if Dumbledore stood and pronounced that Snape had been a DE and then became a spy against LV (as he did in the memory in the Pensieve), why doesn't Fudge know what seems to be common knowledge? We know he worked for the ministry at the time Snape would have been tried. But his attitude toward Snape seems to change entirely after he sees the mark. And, am I the only person who wonders how Snape manages to stay alive with so many people aware of his secrets? ===== Brangwyn __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From yutu at wanadoo.es Wed Apr 16 00:20:44 2003 From: yutu at wanadoo.es (izaskun granda) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 02:20:44 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Quidditch Reserves (No longer OOP) References: <000b01c30372$06e48320$e0398351@j0dhe> Message-ID: <002401c303ae$06ba6ea0$d60a6750@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 55417 Hollydaze said: I have to say I disagree with the statement that Gryffindor played without a seeker in that last game and I have two quotes to show why. I've just finished reading Philosophers stone again (I'm starting my OOP re-reads early because I have A Level exams that only finish a day before the book comes out) and in PS Ron says to Harry: "you missed the last Quidditch match, we were steamrollered by Ravenclaw without you" (Pg 219, PS British Paperback). In CoS, this is explained further: "he (Harry) had been unconscious in the hospital wing for the final match, meaning that Gryffindor had been a player short and had suffered their worst defeat in 300 years" (Pg 84, CoS British Paperback). In neither case does it say they played without a seeker, and only in the second quote does it say that they were one player short. To me this suggested that they did have a seeker but that it was someone who had moved from another position (probably a chaser as there are 3 of them compared to only 2 beaters - and you really need both of them and the keeper). So because their skills were not those required by a seeker and as they would only have had two chasers, they lost. I think this just because looking at the basic rules of Quidditch, playing without a seeker is almost the same as forfeiting the match (at least at the level they are playing) it just makes no sense to me that they would even consider playing without a seeker. Although as some other people have pointed out in previous discussions about this subject, I don't understand why they didn't just play someone who had at least half decent seeker skills, surely in a house of between 70 - 250 students (depending on the number of students you believe are at Hogwarts) they should have found ONE person who could have taken on the role, even if they weren't anywhere near as good as Harry. The only way I can think that wouldn't work is if you have to submit your team - including reserves - and then only those people are allowed to play for you through the season. Then, if, as Harry says, there is no reserve seeker, then they would only be able to move someone from another position to fill Harry's. If I've missed anything that would make my thoughts wrong please 'point me' because I haven't read the books for a while and may have forgotten some important details. ME: Ok, they can play even if the team is one man short, but then, why did the Slytherins use Malfoy's injured arm as an excuse not to play the match in PoA? Or still better. Why didn't Wood ask for a few more days till his seeker was totally recovered?? "izaskun granda" From yutu at wanadoo.es Wed Apr 16 00:49:56 2003 From: yutu at wanadoo.es (izaskun granda) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 02:49:56 +0200 Subject: The Gleam of Something Like Triumph (WAS: HP and LV die together?) References: Message-ID: <004901c303b2$1aefc8d0$d60a6750@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 55418 Phyllis: > And also - it's the use of Harry's blood that triggers the gleam. > While it's not explicitly stated in GoF, presumably Harry informed > Dumbledore of Wormtail cutting his hand off for the potion before he got to the part about Wormtail piercing his arm. So it's not the use of human flesh or human blood that triggers the gleam, IMO - it's the use of *Harry's* blood. > > > > Me: There's something else. Remember Harry saved Wormtail's life. So Voldemort has now blood from Harry and blood and flesh from Wormtail who owes his life to Harry. That may prevent his killing Harry. A part of Wormtail is now in LV and this old magic shouldn't be forgoten. As Dumbledore himself told Harry: "this is magic at its deepest, its most impenetrable, Harry. But trust me... the time may come when you will be very glad you saved Pettigrew's life". So my theory is it won't be Pettigrew who prevents Voldemort killing Harry, but his flesh and blood now a part of Voldemort's new body. "izaskun granda" From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Wed Apr 16 04:07:46 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 04:07:46 -0000 Subject: Courage (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55419 Courage To the tune of Courage from The Wizard of Oz Dedicated to Pippin (whose Oz filk is one of the all-time classics) THE SCENE: Gryffindor Common. Anxious to squelch those repeated queries about why she isn't in Ravenclaw, HERMIONE allows herself to be interviewed by NEVILLE regarding her views on the quintessential Gryffindorean virtue..... NEVILLE (waving a mike in HERMIONE'S face): Hermione, in Gryffindor, is there anything you're fearful for? HERMIONE: Not nobody, not nohow! NEVILLE: Not even a basilisk? HERMIONE: Ain't the slightest risk! NEVILLE: How about an Acromantula? HERMIONE: (as if addressing Aragog) Why, I'd give no olive branch to ya! NEVILLE: Supposin' it was Draco Malfoy? HERMIONE: (as if slapping Malfoy) You've dared to diss the wrong gal, boy! NEVILLE: What if it were Lord Voldemort? HERMIONE (with a slight timidity): I'd tell him I was a good friend of, uh, Dumbledore! NEVILLE: Wow! HERMIONE: How? Courage! What makes the House-Elf seize a sock? Courage! What made Nick make the Sorcerer's rock? Courage! What gives werewolves the wherewithal, in the Shrieking Shack or in Hogwarts Hall? What keeps week knees from the Kneazle? Courage! What makes a friend be Secret-Keeper? Courage! What makes Art figure out a beeper? Courage! What keeps the Centaur on the scent? What makes dementors go dement? What scores 112 percent? BOTH: Courage! NEVILLE Could you say that again? (I forgot to turn the tape on ..) - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Wed Apr 16 04:07:40 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 04:07:40 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Birthday; SHIP (FITD) In-Reply-To: <036c01c302b3$686aff30$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55420 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pennylin" wrote: > The DVD contains a calendar, which includes a reference to > Hermione's *12th* birthday on September 19th of the CoS school > year. [snip] > Therefore, the long-standing debate of interest to so many of us > (and utterly bewildering to so many others) appears to be settled > canonically, with the following results: > > a. Hermione turns 12 roughly 6 weeks after Harry does, so she is > 2 months younger, not 10 months older. > > b. This raises a question of how the Magical Quill operates. I > would personally think that this confirms my long-standing belief > that the Magical Quill operates on a calendar year (so someone > turning 11 on January 2nd would start on September 1st, as would > someone who doesn't turn 11 until December 30th of that same year). > > Heidi has already told me that she is convinced that the Magical > Quill might be tied to the fall equinox (with a cut-off date of > September 21st). This question can perhaps be settled depending > on whether Angelina Johnson returns to Hogwarts in OoP. If she > does return, then it means she turned 17 in mid-October of her 6th > year. This would mean that Angelina turned 12 shortly after > starting Hogwarts in her first year ....... supporting Heidi's > theory that the cut-off date is possibly September 21st. If > Angelina had her 7th year in GoF and doesn't return as a student > in OoP, then it will cut more toward the calendar-year cut-off > date, IMO. Actually, the calendar year argument does not work completely, because although we do not know Angelina's year for certain, we do know Cedric Diggory's. He was in sixth year in GoF and turned seventeen before Halloween, thus qualifying for the Tournament. Therefore we can deduce that the cut-off date is neither September 1, as many people have asserted in the past, nor the end of the calendar year, but sometime between September 19 (Hermione's birthday) and Halloween (or, more likely, mid-October, since Angelina's birthday had already passed by the time Halloween rolled around). This makes Heidi's equinox theory far more plausible. > The other alternative is that Hermione was some exception to the > rule for the cut-off date. That is another possibility, given that she is frightfully smart, that Cedric does demonstrably have his seventeenth birthday before Halloween of his sixth year, and he doesn't seem to be the sort to have to repeat a year (JKR's explanation for her original "Flint"). The autumnal equinox has a nice earthbound significance to it, however, that is inherently appealing. (Although numerous sources I looked up put it on September 22, not 21.) Another possibility is that the cut-off date is tied to the lunar cycle in a given year, which would make it somewhat irregular. If all students are in the same Hogwarts year who are born before the full moon that comes right after the autumnal equinox (or September 1), then there might be a moving target. If this were the system, and in 1980 the first full moon after September 1 were after Hermione's birthday, she'd be in. If, in a different year, the next full moon was on September 2, most September babies would have to wait a year (unless the moon had to be full after some other randomly-selected date). > c. In any case, it is abundantly clear that if Hermione is 6 > weeks younger than Harry, then there is no chance whatsoever that > they are siblings. :--) Erk. I'm not sure why this theory EVER had to be put to rest, but I'm glad this does the trick! > SHIP: Also of interest on the DVD is, of course, an interview with > JKR and Steve Kloves. Loved the interview, chock full of great information, but I'm not even going near the shipping waters. I'd be more interested in know what particular thing couldn't be changed in the second film because of something that happens in Book 6. I know, it's a little over two months before Book 5 arrives and I want Book 6. Have you seen the number of folks on the group today? I hardly think I'm alone! --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From elfundeb at comcast.net Wed Apr 16 04:29:08 2003 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 00:29:08 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's Birthday; SHIP (FITD) References: <036c01c302b3$686aff30$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: <002a01c303d0$b91751e0$9ddc5644@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 55421 Penny said, while humming a certain nursery rhyme: In commenting on the Trio's interactions, Rowling noted that > Columbus had foreshadowed in this 2nd film something she didn't touch on > really until GoF and that is: "certain feelings between the *three* (3) of > them." > > Ahem. > > Between the *3* of them. > I think JKR is saying merely that she allowed Columbus to foreshadow in the CoS movie what she did not foreshadow in the books until GoF, which means she intended it to be ambiguous. I think Hermione's feelings are ambiguously presented in GoF, and (though I've only seen the movie once) they're ambiguously presented there as well. **Caution: picky grammatical point about to be made** "Between" is a concept that relates to two, not three. The correct word to use where a threesome is involved is "among". Since Harry is unambiguously uninterested in GoF, using between could be read to suggest that JKR isn't talking about him because there's nothing *between* him and anyone. That's not to say FITD won't happen; I just don't think JKR has told us anything we didn't already know. On the other hand, of course, since it was an interview, JKR doesn't have an editor at her elbow correcting such mistakes. But that leads to my last point. I don't think things JKR says in interviews can be parsed like the things she says in books. They're off-the-cuff remarks, and people misspeak all the time. As I read these remarks, the point is that something which we're already aware of from a later book was put into an earlier movie. Therefore, I don't think we can read into the remarks anything that we don't already know from reading GoF. (But then, I've always been amazed by the bandwith that is used analyzing the meaning of JKR's hyperbolic remark that "Everyone is in love with the wrong people.") Bottom line, I think the interview isn't *canon*, and doesn't reliably tell us anything about canon. Yeah, I think JKR's pretty smart and isn't about to give anything away that might be important. Debbie who always thought Hermione's age wasn't very important [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jodel at aol.com Wed Apr 16 05:49:09 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 01:49:09 EDT Subject: The Gleam of Something Like Triumph (WAS: HP and LV die together?) Message-ID: <32.37434e0f.2bce48d5@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55422 A paradox! A Paradox! 1. Harry is protected as long as he with his blood relations. 2. Voldemort used Harry's blood to facilitate his return. 3. Voldemort is now a "blood" relation For all the good THAT does.... -JOdel (who reflcts that nothing says that Harry's *relations* are "protected" just because HE'S around.) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Apr 16 06:14:16 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 06:14:16 -0000 Subject: Dementor question In-Reply-To: <009001c3038b$294ff7f0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55423 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Katy Cartee" wrote: > Giselle wrote: > > > Eric I wasn't aware that Azkaban is an island. > > Where in canon does it say that? > > Canon says that Sirius Black swam away from Azkaban when he escaped, that's how we know it's on an island. > > ~Katy~ bboy_mn: Lupin speaking to Harry - PoA US PB pg 188 "The fortress is set on a tiny island, way out to sea. but they don't need walls and water to keep prisoners in, not when they're all trapped inside their own heads, ..." bboy_mn From ratchick22 at hotmail.com Wed Apr 16 05:38:30 2003 From: ratchick22 at hotmail.com (herm - own - ninny) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 05:38:30 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Evans Affair: brought to you by the Lumos charm... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55424 "kenney" Ever notice the way Harry and Tom look exactly alike? But with no >explanation. Surely the oldest Star Wars line "I am your father" can not be >expelled from Voldemort's mouth. However, what about Grandma Evans? While I do believe that a blood connection between Harry and Tom is very plausible, I doubt it would come from Harry's maternal side. If that were the case, then Riddle's only wizard blood would have to come from a Mudblood (ie: a witch in the otherwise muggle Evans family). Because he is described as the descendant of Slytherin I would think that the wizarding blood he does have in him comes from an ancient line of wizards, or in the very least, from a magical family. Thus the Potter side is a better guess for my money - perhaps it's great grandma Potter that creates the link. dina P.S sorry if this has been stated. Because of the delay between me posting and it showing up on the list, I usually end up repeating what others have said *meep* _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From Nickamano at btinternet.com Wed Apr 16 09:47:24 2003 From: Nickamano at btinternet.com (Nick) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 09:47:24 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Birthday; SHIP (FITD) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55425 Halloween is actually New Years Eve in some Pagan religions. So it could quite possibly be the school age cut off point you're chatting about. If The Wizarding world has been established pre 'Roman calendar' and all that (B.C.) Then alot of the traditions might yet follow Pre- Christian dates. (Just like Christmas and Easter do). Nickamano (trying to confuse people even more.) From pennylin at swbell.net Wed Apr 16 12:49:31 2003 From: pennylin at swbell.net (pennylin) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 07:49:31 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's Birthday; SHIP (FITD) References: <036c01c302b3$686aff30$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> <002a01c303d0$b91751e0$9ddc5644@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> Message-ID: <02b501c30416$a0490f00$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 55426 Hi -- A few replies, going in reverse order. CEDRIC'S BIRTHDAY/CUT-OFF DATE -- Great point, Barb! I had completely forgotten that Cedric was a 6th year in GoF. Okay, so my calendar year cut-off doesn't work then. Oh well. Great alternatives that you've proposed though. SHIP (FITD) AND INTERVIEW STATEMENTS: Debbie argued: <<<<>>>>>>>>> I completely agree that both the books and the movies are ambiguous with respect to shipping (or are open to more than one interpretation). <<<<**Caution: picky grammatical point about to be made** "Between" is a concept that relates to two, not three. The correct word to use where a threesome is involved is "among". Since Harry is unambiguously uninterested in GoF, using between could be read to suggest that JKR isn't talking about him because there's nothing *between* him and anyone. That's not to say FITD won't happen; I just don't think JKR has told us anything we didn't already know.>>>>>>>>> Actually, now I think about it: among would be correct if JKR were going to do a menage a' trois, yes? Maybe not so correct if we're talking about romantic feelings relating to two of the three individuals though. That is: there is a relationship foreshadowed between Ron and Hermione (Ron -------> Her) and between Hermione and Harry (Her --------> Har). There's not necessarily a relationship among all three other than platonic friendship. As for her telling us something knew, here's my logic such as it is: a. One of the R/H arguments is that JKR intended to end speculation about H/H with the following chat response: Q: Do Harry and Hermione have a date? A: [laughs] No Harry and Hermione are very platonic friends. b. The other principal R/H argument is that GoF is unambiguously R/H ...... those shippers don't (as Eileen attests) see the potential for H/H at all. They argue that JKR's *intent* is clearly for there to be a R/H romantic relationship in the near future. c. If (a) and/or (b) are true, then by all accounts Rowling should have just said, "certain feelings between two of them" and smiled, leaving all of us still to debate *which* pair. In that case, I would say the R/H'ers would have had a hey-day. And justifiably so. But, by saying *3* of them, she quite obviously intended to keep the guessing going if nothing else. By saying the *3* of them, she quite clearly raises the stakes. I don't think it makes sense any longer to say that the romance angle will necessarily be light and humorous and not integral. If you've involved Harry (the hero and protagonist) in the romance subplot (and she has done this by making reference to the 3 of them), then it necessarily becomes somewhat more complex than some people have predicted. IMHO anyway. On Deb's final point, I would say that the interviews and chat statements are canon..........but I agree completely that they aren't the same level of canon as something that Rowling writes. There can be inconsistencies/flints in her writing, but they are far more likely to fall into her verbal responses. Katy said with respect to Chris Columbus: <<<>>>>>>> Kloves, the screenwriter, would arguably have more need to be "in the know" that Columbus even though, and Kloves makes repeated references in that interview to how "in the dark" he is with respect to what's coming. So, I don't think either of them know what's coming for the romances or anything else. <<<>>>>>>>> You could check out the Romance FP here as a start: http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/ There is an extensive H/H position brief over at FictionAlley Park, though I can't find it at the moment. Heidi? Ebony? This brief dissects each of the four books, both from the position of H/H and the position of against R/H (and H/G). Derannimer said: <<<>>>>>>> *nods* Yes, that is indeed a problem. Eileen had written: > So, what JKR said here is that she endorses > Columbus's > view of the shipping. Heidi responded: <<<>>>>>>> Yes, I agree with Heidi obviously. I don't think JKR said she was *endorsing* Columbus' view of the shipping. If she had said that, she would have said "between two of them" rather than "three of them." Back to Eileen: <<<<<<<>>>>>>>> I'm definitely not following you there. How did the interview reinforce the "they are just platonic" statement for you? Because it had quite the opposite effect on me. If she had said *two* of them, then, oh my, yes. Yes, the H/H ship would have had trouble denying that the earlier "they are just platonic" statement, coupled with this 2003 DVD interview, wasn't a real problem. But, she *didn't* say the *two* of them...........she said "between the three of them." Will reply separately to Petra's points, with whom I am more in agreement than she seems to think. Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From katie.jarvis1 at ntlworld.com Wed Apr 16 12:24:34 2003 From: katie.jarvis1 at ntlworld.com (addictedtobass2003) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 12:24:34 -0000 Subject: Who killed Lily and James Potter? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55427 Events that occurred on 31st October 1981, and their order are still unclear to the reader (in my opinion). Priori Incantatem reveals the spells discharged from a wand in reverse order, but not who cast them. In GoF chapter 34, it reads as if Harry was attacked first (because he never came out of the wand, and we presume that if Harry would have endured, he would have appeared. The next event that happens is the death of James, and then of Lily. If Voldemort was left almost powerless by Harry, how could he have killed Lily and James? Was there someone else present at the time to cast the spells with Voldemort's wand when Voldemort had been defeated? "Voldemort killed James and Lily, then tried to kill Harry." -- JKR on the Diane Rehm Show, October 20, 1999. Why in PS/SS does it also lead you to believe James was killed, then Lily (whilst trying to protect Harry), and then Harry was attacked? I'm not entirely sure if I am interpreting the whole thing wrong, or if it is a misprint. I'm new to the board so I'm still catching up on past messages, so if this query has already been answered, I apologise, but would appreciate a reply nevertheless. Also does anyone have any theories on why Voldemort was so determined to kill Harry in the first place, I would be interested to read them. Thanks addictedtobass2003 "We are only strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided." From Lynx412 at aol.com Wed Apr 16 14:12:27 2003 From: Lynx412 at aol.com (Lynx412 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 10:12:27 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's Birthday; SHIP (FITD) Message-ID: <77.ec9e647.2bcebecb@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55428 In a message dated 4/16/03 7:57:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Nickamano at btinternet.com writes: > Halloween is actually New Years Eve in some Pagan religions. So it > could quite possibly be the school age cut off point you're chatting > about. > > If The Wizarding world has been established pre 'Roman calendar' and > all that (B.C.) Then alot of the traditions might yet follow Pre- > Christian dates. (Just like Christmas and Easter do). > Interesting. Another posibility is the spring equinox, wich was also ued as the date for the eginning of the New year, up until the early 1750's. January 1st was finally oficially establised as New Year's Day with the calendar reform of that era [just ask any genealogist checking dates...]. I'm not sure what that does to the calculations on birthdates and ages, though. Cheryl the Lynx [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dorigen at hotmail.com Wed Apr 16 14:19:59 2003 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 14:19:59 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hagrid in Knockturn Alley Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55429 >My personal guess: Hagrid is spying for Dumbledore. Mine too. Everyone thinks Hagrid is a big clueless buffoon, and it's perfectly true that subtlety is not his strong point. However, in Knockturn Alley, he doesn't have to be subtle. He's a half-giant, hanging around the shady part of town where marginalized people and the "underworld" are. (I wonder if that's where Lupin spent some time ...) He fits right in, no one thinks anything of his being there, and he hides "in plain sight," collecting information. Look at the things this allegedly clueless character has already done for Dumbledore! Who brought Harry from Godric's Hollow to Privet Drive? Who picked up the Philosopher's Stone from Gringott's? Unfortunately, I suspect that if Hagrid does die later in the series it will be because someone finally caught on to him. Janet Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 16 14:25:17 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 14:25:17 -0000 Subject: Is Snape's Former DE Status Public Knowledge? (WAS: Dumbledore including Fudge) In-Reply-To: <20030415232045.82836.qmail@web20509.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55430 Brangwyn wrote: > This is my first post to the list, so please be kind ;) Now me: Welcome! Brangwyn again: > It seems Fudge didn't know Snape was a Death Eater. But why not? > If Snape's trial was as public as Barty Crouch's and Karkaroff's, > and if Dumbledore stood and pronounced that Snape had been a DE and > then became a spy against LV (as he did in the memory in the > Pensieve), why doesn't Fudge know what seems to be common > knowledge? Me again: This particular question stumps me. At Karkaroff's trial, Dumbledore publicly states: "Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater. However, he rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk. He is now no more a Death Eater than I am" (GoF, Ch. 30). And while there's no mention of Rita Skeeter at this trial, Harry does notice "at least two hundred" witches and wizards in the audience. Which suggests the possibility that Snape's Death Eater status is public knowledge. But Sirius doesn't know about it - in Ch. 27, he tells HRH: "But as far as I know, Snape was never even accused of being a Death Eater..." And Fudge doesn't appear to know, either, judging from his reaction when Snape shows him the Dark Mark on his arm. So we either have to believe that the two hundred witches and wizards in attendance at Karkaroff's trial kept this information to themselves, or that it's public knowledge but individuals who one would think would know about it (Sirius and Fudge) don't know for some unexplained reason. While I would think Sirius would know since he was part of the "old crowd" that presumably fought Voldemort during his firt reign of terror, it's more perplexing that Fudge doesn't know, since his fellow Ministry colleague Crouch Sr. knows, as he states at Karkaroff's trial: "Snape has been cleared by this council...He has been vouched for by Albus Dumbledore." I also note that while Crouch Sr. refers to Snape being "cleared," it's unclear whether or not Snape actually had a trial. ~Phyllis From selah_1977 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 16 14:43:15 2003 From: selah_1977 at yahoo.com (Ebony) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 14:43:15 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Birthday; SHIP (FITD) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55432 (Apologies to those on digest, as I deleted this message by mistake. *shuts ears in oven door and irons hands*) First of all, I am quite uncharacteristically smug and ungracious about being right re: Hermione's birthday. It may not be a major point, but I feel vindicated (and thank Steve for having my essay on the Lexicon, which originated as a post here). Hermione's age is very important IMO. *teacher soapbox* In adolescence, year-to-year developmental changes are far more dynamic than they are now at this stage of our lives. If Hermione was nearly a year older than Harry and several months older than Ron, JKR as a former teacher would have naturally written her a bit differently... I stand by that. And of *course* she is more mature than both of the boys in the canon we have so far; not only are most girls that age, I'm nearly 26 and most of my same-cohort males haven't yet caught up to us emotionally. I am beginning to wonder if this will ever happen. ;-) Then again, JKR *did* confirm Hermione's age in canon; even if fandom did not think that Dumbledore's quote in PoA ("two thirteen year old wizards) was enough, or was an uncorrected mistake, I rather suppose that JKR does. Although, I did sigh a bit when I saw this. Because *that* was actually the One Question I Would Ask JKR If I Could Meet Her... "what year was Hermione born in?" So now, I've got to think of something else just in case. For those of you coming to Nimbus, Steve and I will be two of the panelists on a fandom culture panel, "The Wizarding World: Past, Present, Future". During this, we will be chatting about various events in JKR's series from c. 993 to 1998 and beyond, anachronisms, character ages, how Muggle events might impact wizarding, etc. I also plan to work with Steve and the other panelists on some visual aids. So isn't it reassuring that our sense of time seems to be okay thus far? A fandomer named Taras was nice enough to transcribe the DVD-ROM information for those of us who do not have it: http://poke.uh-shells.co.uk/texts/cos-time.txt While reading it over, I was extraordinarily pleased. Nothing looked strange or off at all. And I think that this *must* settle the birthday debate once and for all, because I cannot think of another reason *why* Hermione's birthday was confirmed on this timeline and Ron's was not, when we've have not had any indication of either of these dates in canon... except for *our* benefit. It must have gotten back to TPTB that Hermione's birthday was under dispute in the fandom, and this was inserted for much the same reasons as Krum's pronunciation lesson in GoF. So I am very hopeful that other Frequently Asked Fan Questions will be settled or at least touched upon on June 21. Speaking of which... --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pennylin" wrote in response to this quote: > <<<>>>>>>>> > > You could check out the Romance FP here as a start: > > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/ > > There is an extensive H/H position brief over at FictionAlley Park, though I can't find it at the moment. Heidi? Ebony? This brief dissects each of the four books, both from the position of H/H and the position of against R/H (and H/G). On Christmas Eve 2002, a bunch of H/H shippers who frequented the Debate Thread on FictionAlley Park grew rather tired of *being* tired- -and posted a brief, finally telling the fandom *why* H/Hers were H/Hers. We read each book from an H/H subtextual perspective, and then read it from an anti-R/H (can't pretty it up any more than that) perspective. The original essays can be found here: http://www.fictionalley.org/fictionalleypark/forums/showthread.php? s=&threadid=21753&perpage=20&pagenumber=2 You'll have to scroll down for Emberfire's introduction. Dozens of H/Hers posted during a ship chat that day. It was planned that way because for months and months, the best H/H essayists would post in that forum one at a time, only to have to engage with 5-10 R/Hers at once, who would not engage our main points... a teacher of debate would have had a field day seeing all the logical fallacies being bounced around by both sides! So at that time, the decent H/H writers would get overwhelmed and leave... this was the only way we could get the R/Hers to stop and take us seriously. (I've heard that things have improved on the DT since then, with a new wave of very savvy H/H debaters. This situation will only improve, I predict, once OotP comes out. :-D) On our H/H directory site, Pumpkin Pie, we have clean copies of the four pro-H/H essays: http://www.pumpkinpie.org/index.php?x=ship.php We did not post the anti-R/H essays there because we consider it bad form to post such things on a site where non-H/H shippers might not feel comfortable engaging us. We do not choose to deal with others in this fandom the way that those others sometimes choose to deal with us. So the essays at the Pumpkin Pie are strictly pro-H/H, and the essays by me, Zorb (who will be the H/H moderator for the ship debate at Nimbus), Mia, Carl, and Yumi can only be found at this time in the FictionAlley archives. We would welcome the chance for them to be housed elsewhere, though, in a place where people of all ships or none at all could discourse. However, I *have* reposted my "why I question R/H in GoF" essay here before, perhaps a month or two ago. If you search the archives with "Ebony R/H GoF", etc. you will find it: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/50156 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/50157 I've heard recently that it's been rumored, whispered on the wind, that I've conceded the debate and am just waiting on the inevitable. I've even heard that it has been said that in canon, I believe in R/H, but I just don't like it. Nothing could be further from the case... if JKR tried to convince me of the plausibility of R/H in GoF, she failed utterly and completely not only with me, but with millions of H/Hers worldwide. The real reason I've only lurked around here is because I have had a semester so busy that I had to ask for an extension on my thesis and I've not written a new chapter on my fanfic since December. It takes time and consistency in order to enter the shipping waters here... and because I don't have the time to check daily, often I find the debate has gotten away from me. So what I've found is that I often start tempests in the teapot, then run away while others get the blame. Nice. :) Also, usually folks who show valor or merit in the fray get promoted to some other office, like lieutenant or general. So even if you don't see me around here in name, know that I am around her in spirit, helping a new wave of my shipmates Champion the Subtext. :-D --Ebony AKA AngieJ, home sick today. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This summer: http://www.hp2003.org My zone: http://www.fictionalley.org My ship: http://www.pumpkinpie.org My fics: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise From grace701 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 16 15:02:35 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 15:02:35 -0000 Subject: what about Hagrid with Crossbow? (Was Re: Hagrid in Knockturn Alley) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55433 Mel wrote: > I agree! I am pretty sure this is the "bit". There's absolutely NO > reason for that scene to be in the book unless it's forshadowing > and LESS for it to be in the movie when there are more outwardly > important or cinematic moments that could have been put in its > place. > What, or who was he expecting? I've been wondering the same thing ever since I saw the movie this weekend. Maybe he was expecting Tom Riddle/Voldemort to show up? It's the only thing I can think of. Greicy, who can't believe her least favorite HP book is the one that happens to have so many clues to the rest of the series! From annemehr at yahoo.com Wed Apr 16 15:10:39 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 15:10:39 -0000 Subject: Who killed Lily and James Potter? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55434 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "addictedtobass2003" wrote: > Events that occurred on 31st October 1981, and their order are still > unclear to the reader (in my opinion). > Priori Incantatem reveals the spells discharged from a wand in > reverse order, but not who cast them. > In GoF chapter 34, it reads as if Harry was attacked first (because > he never came out of the wand, and we presume that if Harry would > have endured, he would have appeared. The next event that happens > is the death of James, and then of Lily. If Voldemort was left > almost powerless by Harry, how could he have killed Lily and James? Annemehr: It is the shades, or "echos" (as Dumbledore called them) of the murder victims which came out of Voldemort's wand. In Harry's case, it was only attempted murder, so there was no shade of Harry to come out at all. Some of us have previously speculated on why there is apparantly *no trace* of the spell that gave Harry his scar, and which should have emerged after Bertha Jorkins' shade and before Lily's. What *do* we see emerging from Voldemort's wand? There are the sounds of screams, presumably from the Cruciatus Curses. There is the echo of Wormtail's new silver hand in the appropriate place. There are the shades of the murder victims killed by Avada Kedavra. What *don't* we see any trace of in priori incantatem? There seems to be no trace of either the Imperius curse nor whatever it was Voldemort did to Harry to force him to "bow" before dueling. There was no trace of the failed AK that gave Harry his scar. There was no trace of whatever Voldemort did to break Bertha's memory charm (if he even used his own wand for that -- but why wouldn't he?) So, the conclusion some of us reached (especially Steve b_boy mn?) was that some spells leave either no trace or, most likely, subtle traces that only experienced wizards would recognize. I actually tried to find this thread for you, but when I tried to search the archive, I got a (scary) message that the archive for HPforgrownups is empty! So: > > "Voldemort killed James and Lily, then tried to kill Harry." > -- JKR on the Diane Rehm Show, October 20, 1999. > Annemehr: Yes. This is what happened. > I'm not entirely sure if I am interpreting the whole thing wrong, or > if it is a misprint. I'm new to the board so I'm still catching up > on past messages, so if this query has already been answered, I > apologise, but would appreciate a reply nevertheless. > > Also does anyone have any theories on why Voldemort was so > determined to kill Harry in the first place, I would be interested > to read them. > > Thanks > > addictedtobass2003 > > "We are only strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided." Annemehr: Welcome! Yes, it can be hard to find stuff, but it's okay, we discuss stuff over again all the time -- until June 21st! Sorry I can't look up theories on why Voldemort tried to kill Harry, because of my trouble with the archive... Check the HBfile you got when you signed up for the FAQ's and Fantastic Posts links. But I for one am certainly hoping that is one of the things Dumbledore tells Harry in OoP when he tells him what he should have five years ago (and he'd better not get interrupted)! And finally, are you addicted to fish or to low register music? ;) Annemehr who takes the pages from her CoS daily calendar and puts them in order of the story... From ffionmiles at hotmail.com Wed Apr 16 15:38:36 2003 From: ffionmiles at hotmail.com (ffimiles) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 15:38:36 -0000 Subject: The Gleam of Something Like Triumph (WAS: HP and LV die together?) In-Reply-To: <004901c303b2$1aefc8d0$d60a6750@takun> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55435 "izaskun granda" So my theory is it won't be Pettigrew who prevents Voldemort killing Harry, but his flesh and blood now a part of Voldemort's new body. I agree - great theory, because I've been puzzling over wormtail owing Harry a debt - because he didn't really show he was under this duty in getting Harry to Voldemort, tying him to the headstone/taking his wand etc - apart from a feeble attempt to persuade V. to use another enemy wizard's blood. And as the gleam in Dumbledore's eye would only be for something for the good, this theory's a really good one. From Audra1976 at aol.com Wed Apr 16 16:26:05 2003 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 12:26:05 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Evans Affair: brought to you by the Lumos charm... Message-ID: <124.20d185d0.2bcede1d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55436 ratchick22 at hotmail.com (Dina) writes: << While I do believe that a blood connection between Harry and Tom is very plausible, I doubt it would come from Harry's maternal side. If that were the case, then Riddle's only wizard blood would have to come from a Mudblood (ie: a witch in the otherwise muggle Evans family).>> Not necessarily, Dina. Riddle has two parents after all. Let me paint you this picture: Riddle(Voldemort)'s mother is the witch that comes from the ancient line of Slytherin, and his father is the Muggle with blood relation to the Evans's. That's why the name "Riddle" sounds familiar to Harry. Riddle is a Muggle name, hence someone on Harry's maternal (Muggle) side of the family. That's not to say that the Potters couldn't somehow be related to Riddle(Voldemort)'s maternal (Wizard) side. Wouldn't that be a trip, if Harry's mom were related to V's dad, and Harry's dad related to V's mom?? Gosh, I've never thought of that before. Has anyone else? -Audra- From selene at earthlink.net Wed Apr 16 14:17:33 2003 From: selene at earthlink.net (Susan Fox-Davis) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 07:17:33 -0700 Subject: Lily & Petunia Evans Message-ID: <3E9D65FD.8B011BF0@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 55437 Recap: I opined that maybe the Evans' were a wizarding family and Petunia was a Squib, accounting for her bad attitude about magic. Audra shot it down with: >It was not in canon, but in an interview that JKR stated Lily was >definitely a Muggleborn witch, just like Hermione. Rats. And the psychology was so textbook too. Well here's to their parents, cheers for supporting Lily's uniqueness but jeers to neglecting their "normal" kid. Come to think of it, this is not unlike many families with a gifted child, this is just a different gift. Susan Fox-Davis selene at earthlink.net From aja_1991 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 16 15:56:05 2003 From: aja_1991 at yahoo.com (aja_1991) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 15:56:05 -0000 Subject: what about Hagrid with Crossbow? (Was Re: Hagrid in Knockturn Alley) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55438 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grace701" wrote: > Mel wrote: > > > I agree! I am pretty sure this is the "bit". There's absolutely NO > > reason for that scene to be in the book unless it's forshadowing > > and LESS for it to be in the movie when there are more outwardly > > important or cinematic moments that could have been put in its > > place. > > What, or who was he expecting? > > I've been wondering the same thing ever since I saw the movie this > weekend. Maybe he was expecting Tom Riddle/Voldemort to show up? > It's the only thing I can think of. Now me: I'd never spent much time thinking about it, but a thought did occur to me in reading some of the theories on this subject. Hagrid is expecting an enemy which either *can't* be dealt with via magic, or *shouldn't* be dealt with via magic. Otherwise, why would he approach the door with a physical weapon instead of his wand - er, umbrella? I mean, Hagrid probably realizes that he's going to be viewed as the likely culprit in this, given the (fabricated) testimony against him by Riddle. So, it's not unlikely he'd expect a visit by somebody from the Ministry to remove him from Hogwarts. In canon (book and movie) it seemed Hagrid was extremely surprised that he was destined for Azkaban. So it's not likely he expected a dementor to show up at the door, and I doubt a crossbow would offer much help anyway. Clearly, Hagrid wanted to be prepared to kill *something* immediately, something he would not have the power to do normally with magic. This is why I think grace701's idea makes a lot of sense. Hagrid probably knows that whatever caused such havoc fifty years earlier was caused by Tom Riddle/Voldemort. If the same things are happening, he must be back. And if Voldemort appears at the door and knocks, he is not likely to ask his old school chum Hagrid to invite him in for tea. And Hagrid isn't likely to be quick enough to disarm Tom/V with a spell. No, I think Hagrid expects V to show up to silence him as one of the few who likely figured out the truth behind who opened the Chamber of Secrets. And Hagrid, expecting to die, and knowing he couldn't defend himself or defeat V magically, was willing to take a shot (pun intended) at injuring/killing V nonmagically. He could still be pulling the crossbox trigger as the green light flashes, and the arrow could still hit V. I'm not sure if it could kill him whereas a spell could not, but it could sure hurt him a lot. Or maybe Lucius shows up next to V and gets hit instead. (Nice shot, Hagrid!) The foreshadowing here could be many things. (1) Voldemort can be killed, but *not* by magic - it will need to be a muggle invention like a crossbow or gun, something his immortality spells can't protect him from. (2) A non-"pure bred" wizard will be the downfall of Voldemort. (3) Hagrid will cause a "friendly fire" death in the future. (4) Something Hagrid knows, or finds out, will be extremely critical in the coming war. (5) Hagrid believes he will be killed by V or a DE, does not believe himself capable of preventing it, and is making sure he figures out a way to take some of them out with him. Or others I can't come up with... Tangent thought: why isn't it common knowledge that Tom Riddle became Voldemort? Wouldn't information like that be really useful to the general public, especially clearing people like Hagrid who were hurt by the seemingly-perfect prefect Tom Riddle in the past? aja_1991 From hollydaze at btinternet.com Wed Apr 16 16:46:18 2003 From: hollydaze at btinternet.com (Hollydaze) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 17:46:18 +0100 Subject: broomsticks vs. flying carpets (and a note on Portkeys) References: Message-ID: <000101c3043a$8a78e960$49788751@j0dhe> No: HPFGUIDX 55439 Tom wrote: > > We don't have any evidence to suggest that flying > > carpets are all created by charming a regular muggle > > carpet - for instance, I wouldn't be surprised to > > discover that there were indeed companies/people that > > made carpets *expressly* for flying, along the same > > lines as the Nimbus/Firebolt. And what's to say that a > > flying carpet could even be used as a regular carpet? > > For all we know, after all, stepping on the thing > > could make it lift into the air, which would be most > > inconvenient for in-home usage, if you see what I > > mean. ;-) bboy_mn replied: > Precisely why they are banded as a charmable object, someone would > look at them and see a carpet, and step on it. But we don't know that is definately the case. bboy_mn continues: > But if someone mistood > a flying broom for a really crappy sweeping broom and tried to sweep > with it, there probably wouldn't be any ill effects. A flying broom > held in a sweeping position would not be likely to take off flying. They may not try and sweep with it but I can think of other things that might happen that should mean the broom should be banned as well. It states in GoF that the Firebolt hovered in the air so you could mount it, don't you think a Muggle might find it a bit odd if they say, dropped the broom and it didn't drop, seems similar to the idea of the carpet rising if you step on it (and we don't even know that that is the case!). bboy_mn continues: > Carpet manufacturing - even if a wizard manufactures a carpet as a > flying carpet, he must indeed first make a carpet. Muggle made or > wizard made, it is still a carpet. > > A broom on the other hand, is constructed for balance, comfort, and > aerodynamics rather than functional sweeping ability. Any Muggle who > looked at a flying broom, would see a really crappy sweeping broom > worth nothing beyond the wood it was made from. But it is still a broom even if it if you can not use it for sweeping. Also, if the brooms in the book do look anything like those in the film (sorry for the cross referance) then I think it might be a bit obvious to a muggle that the broom had been designed for somthing other than sweeping, I mean what would you think if you saw a broom like that with foot rests and such. I'm almost certain that the first thing I'd thnk wouldn't be anything to do with kindling. Although now I'm really getting into an argument about whether any object is actually "safe" to charm, muggle or not. What really is the difference between a muggle finding a flying carpet or broom (both of which are muggle objects) or finding something exclusively magical such as a time turner or the put-outer, in either case it could cause problems. And do you have any idea how difficult it actually is to think of any magical object that couldn't be thought of as Muggle, even the two I just mentioned are described as looking like muggle objects. As a note to the portkey business and why they are not frequently used, could the reason have something to do with the fact that they are noramlly everyday objects (normally rubbish), surely the more portkey's you have laying around the more likely it is that one would fall into the hands of a muggle. HOLLYDAZE!!! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jmd at jvf.co.uk Wed Apr 16 08:07:35 2003 From: jmd at jvf.co.uk (Jeremy Davis) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 09:07:35 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hagrid in Knockturn Alley References: <20030415153743.47393.qmail@web13102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004601c303ef$3f20d810$0e010001@jmd2000> No: HPFGUIDX 55440 > > Jeremy Davis wrote:JKR has said in the past (dunno where or when!!) that there are some > significant happenings in COS. I'm just wondering what peoples views are on > the reason why Hagrid was in Knockturn Alley when Harry miss-dialed with his > floo power. Hagrid said he was looking for the "Flesh Eating Slug > Repellant". Is he telling the whole truth? > > In response to your Hagrid question. I have always believed that Hagrid wasn't telling the entire truth. There is no mention of any flesh eating slugs anywhere in CoS except in that scene. But then again perhaps that was Hagrid's theory on what was killing his roosters, but the way I see it the roosters weren't dying until after the school year began. What else could he have been looking for in such a dark magic infested place? This may just be the film clouding my memory of the book, but when HHR were discussing that fact that they thought Hagrid had opened the chamber, Hagrid came over carrying some flesh eating sluig repellant. So he must have got it from somewhere. However in the film, Hagrid did sound very guilty of something when Harry asked why he was in Knockturn Alley. "Jeremy" From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Wed Apr 16 14:50:29 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 10:50:29 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's Birthday; SHIP (FITD) References: <036c01c302b3$686aff30$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> <002a01c303d0$b91751e0$9ddc5644@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> <02b501c30416$a0490f00$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: <01b501c30427$87441ed0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55441 I wrote: <<<>>>>>>> Then Penny wrote: > Kloves, the screenwriter, would arguably have > more need to be "in the know" that Columbus even > though, and Kloves makes repeated references in > that interview to how "in the dark" he is with > respect to what's coming. So, I don't think > either of them know what's coming for the > romances or anything else. Now me again: Ack! Sorry, i'm getting Columbus and Kloves mixed up. I MEANT to say Kloves in my comment above, not Columbus. And yes, i saw the interview and heard him say that JKR hasn't given up any major plot points to him even though he's begged...BUT he's asked her on several occasions "am i going in the right direction here?" and she would say yes or no. And if she said no, she had to tell him which direction was the correct one without giving too much away. So i'm sure she's hinted at plenty that we have no clue about. They might not "know" but they have more to go on than we do. That was/is my point. ~Katy~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From erinellii at yahoo.com Wed Apr 16 16:52:59 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 16:52:59 -0000 Subject: The Gleam of Something Like Triumph (WAS: HP and LV die together?) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030416005352.00d45ef0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55442 --- Troels Forchhammer wrote: > Voldemort cannot understand love. The protection (which now > also resides in his veins) is, basically, an expression of > love (combined with the sacrifice): I think this accounts for > why Voldemort has overlooked some side effect of this, which > Dumbledore (who obviously does understand love) is quick to > realise. > What exactly this side effect might be, I cannot guess, but I > am sure that it will be related to Harry's protection specifically > and not his blood in general. > Troels Heh, heh, you know how, whenever Voldemort feels a particuarly strong surge of hatred, Harry feels pain. Wouldn't it be funny if, now that Voldemort has some of Harry in him, every time Harry feels love, Voldemort feels pain? Not sure how that would relate to Dumbledore's reaction, but it would be amusingly symmetrical. Erin (who's hoping especially hard that Harry gets himself a girlfriend this year) From erinellii at yahoo.com Wed Apr 16 16:36:49 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 16:36:49 -0000 Subject: Dementor question In-Reply-To: <20030415195625.34541.qmail@web13103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55443 Giselle Sicle wrote: > Eric I wasn't aware that Azkaban is an island. Where in canon does it say that? I'm not trying to be rude I just want to know if I missed it or something... Giselle, it clearly states in PoA that Azkaban is an island in a "cold" sea, and that Sirius swam back to the mainland in dog form. Erin From graniteworks at sbcglobal.net Wed Apr 16 14:34:14 2003 From: graniteworks at sbcglobal.net (graniteworks at sbcglobal.net) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 14:34:14 -0000 Subject: Author mistake, Maybe?? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55444 Did you ever notice that in HP&SS(#1) at the welcoming feast in the beginning when Harry and Ron first meet Nearly Headless Nick, the Gryffindor ghost, Nick states that he hasn't eaten anything in almost 400 years but in HP&CS(#2) Nearly Headless Nick has his 500th death day party? He seemed to have jumped from 400 years dead to 500 years dead in one year. Do you think that that is just a mistype or what??? "graniteworks" From graniteworks at sbcglobal.net Wed Apr 16 15:51:46 2003 From: graniteworks at sbcglobal.net (graniteworks at sbcglobal.net) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 15:51:46 -0000 Subject: The sorting Hat?? Accurate or not? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55445 If you noticed, it seems that the same number of kids go into the four houses every year. Does the sorting hat have a requirement to put a certain number of kids in each house each year. Is that why Neville Longbottom is in Gryffindor?? He doesn't really seem to have the bravery that Godric Gryffidor honored. He stood up to his friends in HP&SS(#1)at the end right before Harry, Ron, and Hermione go to stop the socerer's stone from being stolen. If he is brave enough to be in Gryffindor then maybe he will show that in later books. That could be a hint. It just seems that 5 boys and 5 girls go into each house every year and there is no way you can guarantee that you are going to have that exact number of kids with the right qualities. What happens if you have 30 kids that fit Gryffidor's standards and 2 that fit somewhere else. What would they do?? "graniteworks" From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Wed Apr 16 17:56:36 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 13:56:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The JKR interview on the DVD: SHIP AND Shipping Mentality In-Reply-To: <20030415155513.75905.qmail@web80504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030416175636.80990.qmail@web20422.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55446 There seems to be a good deal of confusion over my post. A confusion that I must say I don't really understand. Perhaps the problem is that my ways of thinking don't follow the usual paths? :-) I wrote: >The interview brought a smile to my face, since >it destroyed an H/Hr line of speculation from late >2002. Then I mentioned the context of the interview and went on to explain what the line of speculation was. >Now, when Columbus gave his infamous interview, >the overall response in the fandom was that >Columbus wasn't JKR, and if he shipped Ron and >Hermione, that didn't mean JKR did. I know that a >few more subtle H/Hers didn't take that line, but >you must admit that was the widespread response. I >keep a close eye on the FAP shipping threads, >because, being me, I like to know what the fandom >trends are. As noted above, this line of speculation was not exactly followed by the luminaries of the Pumpkin Pie, who didn't take Columbus and the CoS movie in the first place as being R/Hr to the exclusion of H/Hr. But those who did protested vociferously that Columbus had got JKR completely wrong. So, in that context, I hope my following comment made sense. I wrote: >So, what JKR said here is that she endorses >Columbus's view of the shipping. I probably should have qualified that. I don't actually know what Columbus's views are, and presumably they could be different than JKR's or anyone else's. I meant that JKR endorsed Columbus's portrayal of the shipping as consistent with her portayal in GoF. It's not actually an R/Hr argument, but it shoots down the H/Hr argument going the rounds that Columbus was blatantly contradicting JKR's wishes. i.e. I won't have to hear it anymore. On to more mature arguments. As for this argument being widespread, I'd be prepared to give documentation taken from the Pumpkin Pie threads and Deathmarch. While, it was widespread, though, it was never taken into consideration by serious people. I suppose on the opposite side, we have the "R/Hr is proven because of the handshake! or Harry was touching Hermione's hand!" people, now. No sooner is one illogical argument shot down, than another takes its place. People who ship by movies should have their heads examined, anyway. Heidi wrote: >Do you mean to say that you believe that a romance >between Ron and Hermione exists within the pages of >GoF? In other words, do you think that in the >timeframe of GoF, but off the page, they are snogging, >holding hands, etc.? > >Because that's what I was refering to in my post. Who actually has ever argued any such thing? I don't see anyone making such an argument, and I've kept a close eye on the fandom shipping wars and discussions for the last year. I assumed that when you referred to people who believe the R/Hr romance is canon, you were indeed referring to people who believe that the R/Hr romance is canon. Such people do not have to believe that Hermione and Ron are already snogging. Thinking through this, I think our problem must be that we are defining romance differently. For you, I suspect a book's romance only begins when both people openly display reciprocal emotions? Whereas I think in a literary sense it begins quite a bit before that. At the Yule Ball, I believe, is where I'd say the R/Hr romance begins. As for an actual intrepretation of what JKR said, I didn't comment on that originally. But now that everyone else is giving it their best shot, I didn't see anything particularly interesting about it, to tell the truth. The quote was "certain feelings between the three of them," And, maybe because I am not a couplethinker, I yawned and wished Rowling would talk about something more interesting. You see, certain feelings between the three of them didn't signify a love triangle, or a menage a trois, or anything so boring. :-) It means, precisely that. Sorting out the "certain feelings between the three of them." Isn't that what GoF was about? I think GoF ends with the adoption of R/Hr and the rejection of H/Hr in favour of a non-romantic relationship, a thematic process that is concretized by the Rita Skeeter subplot and the infamous Kiss. Does it amuse you to know that I read the Kiss as the death-knell of an H/Hr possibility? This intrepration, of course, is grounded in reading the evidence as pointing towards R/Hr in the first place, but it fits extremely well with JKR's interview. So, when Heidi wrote: >But for those who believe that in early 2000, JKR > made it clear to everyone > that there would never be any H/Hr romance, this > interview should be a bit of > an issue/bone of consternation I wasn't exactly sure where she was coming from, since I thought JKR had made herself very clear against H/Hr AND I had no problem with the interview. Derannimer wrote: >See, there's nothing wrong with saying you see >no evidence for a theory, as long as you acknowledge >that someone else *does* see it, and that they aren't >necessarily doing so from sheer intellectual >dishonesty. (See Angua's recent assertion that one >could only be H/H from--paraphrase--a "stubborn >romanticizing and eroticizing impulse.") But surely a "stubborn romanticizing and eroticizing impulse" isn't sheer intellectual dishonesty? :-) >What there *is* something wrong with saying, and >what a lot of R/Hers--though obviously not often >on *this* list--*are* saying, is: "I plain don't see >any evidence for H/H and the only reason that >you do is that you are a wishfully thinking idiot." Which is very impolite to say. Even if it were true, which I know isn't the case with you. However, to take this past shipping, there are times when I think people are being wishfully thinking idiots about all sorts of issues, but being polite, I don't usually mention it. We can't know other people's intentions, motivations, extenuations etc. Human beings should refrain from judging other people, even though they can judge acts, or in this case, arguments. >Derannimer (who would like to point out that Eileen >herself has never, to Derannimer's recollection, >once insulted H/H, or H/Hers) Well, not in public, anyway. :-) What I yell at the computer screen is another matter. Ebony wrote: >And I think that this *must* settle the birthday >debate once and for all. You think so? Let's not get hasty here! The birthday debate has been going on for years. Will a little detail like this stand in the way of it? I am not at all comfortable with the idea of taking information from merchandise, even if approved. There is plenty of precedent for author-approved merchandise which is completely wrong. I don't care much about the controversy myself, but I am not about to take direction from a DVD. The books are my canon and I'll take interviews into consideration. Eileen ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From jeckhard at vt.edu Wed Apr 16 14:43:47 2003 From: jeckhard at vt.edu (Jason Eckhardt) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 10:43:47 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Snape's Former DE Status Public Knowledge? (WAS: Dumbledore including Fudge) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55447 Brangwyn again: > It seems Fudge didn't know Snape was a Death Eater. But why not? > If Snape's trial was as public as Barty Crouch's and Karkaroff's, > and if Dumbledore stood and pronounced that Snape had been a DE and > then became a spy against LV (as he did in the memory in the > Pensieve), why doesn't Fudge know what seems to be common > knowledge? How's it going everyone... Anyways, I don't necessarily think Fudge was suprised that Snape was a death eater, I think he knew that already. I think he was just shocked that the mark was burning as brightly as it was, and refused to believe what was happening. As far as Sirius, he was probably in Azkaban when Crouch was on trial, because it was after Voldemort was defeated that the trial occured, and they were rounding up the last of the death eaters. Sirius said he remembers when Crouch was brought into Azkaban. Because he wasn't around during the last roundup, he probably never heard about it. And because it was in Dumbledore's best interests to remain quiet about the whole situation, he probably never mentioned it to Sirius after he got out. This is my first time posting too, so hi to everyone. Jason From davidndc at yahoo.com Wed Apr 16 17:09:38 2003 From: davidndc at yahoo.com (davidndc) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 17:09:38 -0000 Subject: Is Harry gay? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55448 I've been reading a lot of posts that question Harry's sexual orientation. Also Draco's and whether any of the 'Harry Potter' characters are gay. I've wondered about this, as well, and I can only say that book five will answer these questions. Unfortunately, the characters that I would have liked to discover as gay are not and those who are gay are not really surprizing. However book five is very enjoyable and a continues the series in 'real life' fashion. I would like to make a comment about the link on the home page for first time posters, regarding the rules of this group. They are copious. I don't think that I've ever seen so many rules for something so informal as this group. Tedious though they are, I will try to abide by them. One note, however. This seems to be a group that originated in England, and is therefore governed by the rules of the Queens English, ie, punctuation. English is very different in countries such as America, Canada and Australia, etc., and has different rules for grammer, spelling and punctuation. If you were serious about being certain to use proper spelling and grammar, then please remember that there several versions of proper English. Thanks. "Davidndc" From selene at earthlink.net Wed Apr 16 17:20:49 2003 From: selene at earthlink.net (Susan Fox-Davis) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 10:20:49 -0700 Subject: Snape was Re: Re Is Harry gay?? Message-ID: <3E9D90F0.60C1133A@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 55449 Rash xx ["rashm1" ] wonders: > PS I wonder what Snape thinks of Muggle borns, does it mention this > anywhere in canon?? I don't think so, but the Voldicratically-correct anti-Muggle bias would explain why he is SO snide to Hermione, ostensibly the star pupil. I think I've figured one other reason why Snape favors the Slytherin kids so strongly. Let's face it, many of their parents are "faithful" Death Eaters who returned to The Dark Lord promptly. Anticipating the return, Snape endeared himself to the next generation so he had a chance of surviving as a "traitor" and all. A double agent's true loyalty is really only known to himself. Everyone outside of his head can really know. [Dumbledore has probably been inside!] Bouquets? Brickbats? Susan Fox-Davis selene at earthlink.net From maria_valencia_cuberos at hotmail.com Wed Apr 16 16:59:02 2003 From: maria_valencia_cuberos at hotmail.com (Maria ) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 16:59:02 -0000 Subject: Re Is Harry gay?? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030415175303.02c41e00@mail.societyhappens.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55450 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Sushi wrote: > Ah, and it breaks my slashy little heart to say this, but I have > to agree. As much as I would truly love to find out that Harry has a crush > on Ron (or, better yet, Snape, but I'm weird that way), I think it's about > as likely in canon as it would be to learn that Hagrid's size is only an > illusion and he's actually a dwarf named Stinky Mel. > > I think that harry could be bisexual. On the other hand, I think he'll have quite a problem with love. Why? Well, he didn't experience any kind of love exept one year of his parent's love, which isn't a very long time. At the Dursleys certainly nobody loved him, and in the wizarding world... well everybody worships him, exept his friends who learned to see him as 'Harry'. But if someone wasn't loved for so long, how could he know how to love somebody? It's clearly stated, that he doesn't like all the fame, and so it could be very likely that he does something just to annoy all his worshippers. Like turning gay or bisexual very openly, and stuff like that. "Maria" From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Apr 16 17:45:38 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 17:45:38 -0000 Subject: The Dursleys WAS Re: single parents in HP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55451 Pip: > Petunia does seem to have a sense of relationship to Harry. Her > nephew is fed, clothed, kept safe, educated. She just doesn't seem > to be able to love him. > > But like Snape, however much she doesn't love him, she has never > wanted him *dead*. > > That's just what Harry thinks. ;-) That's right - she does keep Harry alive. Marge, Vernon and Dudley, however, might well be disappointed for Harry to have had so many excellent possibilities to die he missed. Perhaps 'the Dursleys' in further concept, means those who were _born_ as Dursleys! Petunia married a Dursley but she's an Evans by birth, just like Harry's mother... Quite right, *she's* the one who's terrified by magic, and she does try to protect both her son and nephew from it - and Dudley even with her own life. Vernon isn't afraid of magic or he wouldn't have *dared* to do anything to Harry, much like as with *Sirius* - threat. All Vernon knows/believes/must accept of magic is that Petunia gets upset about it. However, someone - with a reputation of being an escaped *murderer* and being Harry's _godfather_ of all things... Now *that's* something to be worried about. I don't know if Vernon believed in magic until Dudley got the pig-tail... not really. Like that wizards are freaks who let in as little as mafia, and do *tricks* - tricks that have a decent, logical Muggle explanation... -- Finwitch From graniteworks at sbcglobal.net Wed Apr 16 17:32:44 2003 From: graniteworks at sbcglobal.net (graniteworks at sbcglobal.net) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 17:32:44 -0000 Subject: What is Canon? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55452 I keep seeing everyone refer to "canon". What is it?? I don't understand the connection. Please Explain?? Also why does everyone refer to the first book as Harry Potter and the Philosophers Stone?? As far as my knowledge goes in reading the book, it is called Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone. "Graniteworks" From aja_1991 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 16 18:00:50 2003 From: aja_1991 at yahoo.com (aja_1991) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 18:00:50 -0000 Subject: The Gleam of Something Like Triumph (WAS: HP and LV die together?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55453 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "erinellii" wrote: > Heh, heh, you know how, whenever Voldemort feels a particuarly strong > surge of hatred, Harry feels pain. Wouldn't it be funny if, now that > Voldemort has some of Harry in him, every time Harry feels love, > Voldemort feels pain? Not sure how that would relate to Dumbledore's > reaction, but it would be amusingly symmetrical. Me: Highly symmetrical and amusing and ironic. And it seems to work a lot too. Don't have the books in front of me, and possibly some movie contamination in my head, but didn't Dumbledore say in PS/SS in the "debriefing" at the end that what saved Harry, and what Voldemort can't understand, is love? I've noted in some of my other posts that Voldemort often overlooks things, even while seeming to be patient to achieve his goals. Perhaps he overlooked the magical qualities of wizard blood. One of those qualities, evident when blood is transferred, is a type of clairvoyance - you sense what the source of that blood is sensing. Harry has it from Voldemort in the scar on his head instead of with blood; Voldemort now has it from Harry in his newly rebirthed body. Harry may feel pain because the intensity of Voldemort's hatred is painful... it's not necessarily that the scar will just automatically hurt. Harry feels what Voldemort is feeling, and is so un-used to such intense hatred and anger that it's painful. Normal feelings, say hunger or fatigue, might not be noticed because they are likely not particularly strong, but also because Harry's experienced them and his system absorbs them quite normally. So based on Erinelli's theory above, Voldemort may experience Harry's anger at an unfair punishment from Snape as pretty normal. Harry's, um, interest in Cho (which seems more teenage boy raging hormones than a deeper relationship type of love), might be something he's familiar with too. (I can't help but think that the evil Voldemort feels and acts on sensations of lust in some way). But true love? Parent-child love? Husband-wife love? True friendship / platonic love? These are all things Voldemort has never known or has long since forgotten. Could this result in a sensory overload of some kind to Voldemort? JKR seems reluctant, I'll admit, to have Harry kill anyone. He's been tempted, and perhaps given the right target he could do so, but there seems to be a message coming through that he will resist that temptation. Could it be that Harry, in some day finding that true love of whatever type (see list above), could overwhelm Voldemort with those feelings of love and kill the *evil*, rather than the wizard? The happy and intelligent Tom Riddle from Hagrid's youth comes back, repentant of all? Now THAT would be ironic. aja_1991 From t.forch at mail.dk Wed Apr 16 18:27:59 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 20:27:59 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The sorting Hat?? Accurate or not? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030416202039.00ee65f0@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 55454 At 15:51 16-04-03 +0000, graniteworks at sbcglobal.net wrote: >Is that why Neville Longbottom is in Gryffindor?? He doesn't >really seem to have the bravery that Godric Gryffidor honored. >He stood up to his friends in HP&SS(#1)at the end right before >Harry, Ron, and Hermione go to stop the socerer's stone from >being stolen. I think you underestimate the importance of that situation - at least its importance to Rowling (and she is, after all, the one who matters). In a talk show with WBUR "the Connection" on October 12, 1999, JKR said: "I mean, I deeply admire bravery in all forms, and that's why ... in book one, if - if people have read book one they'll remember that Neville Longbottom, who is a - who is a comic, but I - he's not a tr- wholly comic figure to me, Neville is actually quite a tragic figure to me as well because there's a lot of Neville in me - this feeling of just never being quite good enough -- I mean I - we've all felt that at some point, and I felt that /a lot/ when I was younger, and I wanted to show Neville doing something brave - it's not as spectacularly brave as Harry and Hermione do, but he - he finds true moral courage in standing up to his closest friends - the people who are on his side, but he still thinks they are doing wrong and he tells them so - so that's a very important moment for me too in the first book. " http://www.hogwarts-library.net/reference/interviews/19991012_TheConnection.html#part18 Troels From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Apr 16 18:32:06 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 19:32:06 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] What is Canon? References: Message-ID: <3E9DA1A6.000001.12815@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 55455 "Graniteworks" wrote - I keep seeing everyone refer to "canon". What is it?? I don't understand the connection. Please Explain?? Also why does everyone refer to the first book as Harry Potter and the Philosophers Stone?? As far as my knowledge goes in reading the book, it is called Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone. "Graniteworks" Canon is the collection of facts established in a book or series or tv series or film or whatever, depending on which fandom you're in. For example Professor Snape is the head of Slytherin is canon because it is stated in the books. Harry is the heir of Gryffindor is not canon because it is merely an assumption many people have made based on him pulling Goderic's sword from the Hat in CoS. And on a related note fanon is something which is generally taken as 'fact' by the fan community or sections of it such as MWPP referring to themselves as the Marauders - fanon not canon. And as for the title when the book was published in America the title was changed because it was believed American children would not know what a Philosopher was so it was changed to Sorcerer - whereas amongst us wise old Brits Philosopher is a word commonly bandied about by 7 year olds - not! :) It is imo the 'correct' title of the book because it is the title JKR used. K From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed Apr 16 18:36:14 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 14:36:14 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] What is Canon? Message-ID: <1c9.85bbf26.2bcefc9e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55456 In a message dated 4/16/2003 1:21:39 PM Central Standard Time, graniteworks at sbcglobal.net writes: > I keep seeing everyone refer to "canon." What is it?? I don't > understand the connection. Please Explain?? Also why does everyone > refer to the first book as Harry Potter and the Philosophers Stone?? > As far as my knowledge goes in reading the book, it is called Harry > Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone. > > "Graniteworks" > Canon is anything that actually happens in the books or that Rowling says in her interviews. The original title of the book is "Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone, Her American publishers pressed her to change the name for American audiences.In the rest of the world its called HP and the Philosopher's Stone. (duplicate scenes were shot for the scenes where the stone is mentioned by name.) Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dicentra at xmission.com Wed Apr 16 18:21:59 2003 From: dicentra at xmission.com (Dicentra spectabilis) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 18:21:59 -0000 Subject: Author mistake, Maybe?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55457 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "graniteworks at s..." wrote: > Did you ever notice that in HP&SS(#1) at the welcoming feast in the > beginning when Harry and Ron first meet Nearly Headless Nick, the > Gryffindor ghost, Nick states that he hasn't eaten anything in almost > 400 years but in HP&CS(#2) Nearly Headless Nick has his 500th death > day party? He seemed to have jumped from 400 years dead to 500 years > dead in one year. Do you think that that is just a mistype or what??? > It appears to be a mistype. If you assume that the date on the cake is correct, NHN died in 1492, meaning that the events in CoS take place in 1992. The new CoS DVD provides a timeline that confirms this. If you'd like to read more about it, look in the Harry Potter Lexicon at the address below. http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/timeline.html#Important --Dicentra From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Wed Apr 16 18:34:51 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 14:34:51 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Re Is Harry gay?? References: Message-ID: <008201c30446$deb87c00$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55458 "Maria" wrote: > But if someone wasn't loved for so long, how > could he know how to love somebody? So are you saying that all humans that have a non-loving, bad upbringing have no chance of ever learning the meaning of love? Surely not. Harry has been shown many examples of true love - his mother's gift, Dumbledore's care, the love of Ron, Hermione and Hagrid. I'm sure by now he's getting a good grip on what love means and how it feels. He obviously loves his friends. So romantic love would just be the next step. ~Katy~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dicentra at xmission.com Wed Apr 16 18:28:47 2003 From: dicentra at xmission.com (Dicentra spectabilis) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 18:28:47 -0000 Subject: What is Canon? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55459 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "graniteworks at s..." wrote: > I keep seeing everyone refer to "canon". What is it?? I don't > understand the connection. Please Explain?? Also why does everyone > refer to the first book as Harry Potter and the Philosophers Stone?? > As far as my knowledge goes in reading the book, it is called Harry > Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone. > Hi again! "Canon" refers to the first four (and soon to be five) books written by JK Rowling as well as the two schoolbooks (Quidditch Through the Ages and Fantastic Beasts and Where To Find Them). Anything she says in an interview is usually considered to be canon. This means that it's reliable information. Other sources of information, such as what is in the movie, what an actor says, or fanfic, are not considered to be reliable information. So, for example, if the movie differs from the book, the book is considered to be the true version, not the movie. The original title of the first book is "Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone." It appears this way in all of the British, Canadian, Australian, and other editions worldwide (including foreign language). Scholastic, JKR's publisher in the U.S., decided to change the word to "Sorcerer's" because they thought that U.S. audiences would be turned off by the word "Philosopher's" because it was too dull or something. JKR approved the change. --Dicentra From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Apr 16 18:08:43 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 18:08:43 -0000 Subject: The sorting Hat?? Accurate or not? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55460 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "graniteworks at s..." wrote: > If you noticed, it seems that the same number of kids go into the > four houses every year. Does the sorting hat have a requirement to > put a certain number of kids in each house each year. Is that why > Neville Longbottom is in Gryffindor?? He doesn't really seem to have > the bravery that Godric Gryffidor honored. 1) Neville *values* bravery and chivalry. This is, I believe, the *key* factor for him being sorted into Gryffindor. 2) There's two kinds of courage - enduring misery with dignity and standing up (to people, for beliefs, whatever). Neville's excellent with the first kind from start (about his parents, at least) and learns to do the second while at Hogwarts. I think he wouldn't have cried if he had to be stuck in that trap stair for eternity. Standing up to people - particularly as Neville's magic gets easily out of control and he wants to be a nice and polite boy - is extremely difficult for him. Why should that diminish his courage in any way? And well, Neville feels true compassion to any creature that's being harmed... so crushing poor beatles at potions or turning poor hedgehogs into pincushions at transfiguration makes him upset, afraid and what not... -- Finwitch. From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Apr 16 18:47:19 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 19:47:19 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] What is Canon? References: <1c9.85bbf26.2bcefc9e@aol.com> Message-ID: <3E9DA537.000001.61591@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 55461 Melissa said - Canon is anything that actually happens in the books or that Rowling says in her interviews. Now me - (oh and sorry I forgot to show where I started writing in my last post - I think it's fairly obvious though, especially since I forgot to delete graniteworks signature too, so I didn't want to waste anyone's time by posting about that separately but since I'm here again anyway, apologies to anyone who got confused) Anyway - that's a debatable point actually. If it's in the book it's definitely canon - if JKR says it, well it's probably true obviously, but is it canon? Apart from anything else she may change her mind about anything she says between now and finishing book 7 so then the books might contradict her interviews. Personally while I obviously pay attention to what she says (since it's her universe and all) if it ain't in the books it ain't canon - as far as I'm concerned. I know that views on authors' comments vary between fandoms so I don't know how widely held my opinion is in this particular fandom. K From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Wed Apr 16 18:23:04 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 14:23:04 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What is Canon? References: Message-ID: <007901c30445$393428c0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55462 "Graniteworks" wrote: > I keep seeing everyone refer to "canon". What is it?? I don't > understand the connection. Please Explain?? Also why does everyone > refer to the first book as Harry Potter and the Philosophers Stone?? > As far as my knowledge goes in reading the book, it is called Harry > Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone. I don't know the official definition of the word "canon"...but basically it means, in this case, anything written by the author. So if the books say that Harry has green eyes, but in the movie they are blue, we would choose the book's description as "fact" because it is "canon." Does that make sense? And re: the title. In America, it is HP and the Sorcerer's Stone, but the English/British title is HP and the Philosopher's Stone. It's like that because of the differences of the English language in the US as opposed to English in England. ~Katy~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Wed Apr 16 19:19:39 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 15:19:39 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What is Canon? References: <1c9.85bbf26.2bcefc9e@aol.com> <3E9DA537.000001.61591@monica> Message-ID: <00be01c3044d$222fd9a0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55463 K wrote: > I know that views on authors' comments vary > between fandoms so I don't know how widely > held my opinion is in this particular fandom. I can't speak for the others, but for me, i partially agree with your assessment. But i believe that the author's interviews/comments ARE canon UNLESS they are contradicted by the books. For instance, she's already said that Harry and Hermione are "platonic" friends. But if, in the future books, that does not hold true, i will obviously believe the books over what she said several years ago. Or if she says "Harry will die" and then he doesn't...well it's obvious which of the two options would be "canon." I believe that there are different "levels" of canon and most won't be explored until the series is finished. For example: Level #1 - The Books Level #2 - What that author says Level #3 - The Movies Level #4 - Comic books, cartoons and god knows what else they'll end up coming out with in the future ;) So if, after the series is finished, the cartoon says that Dumbledore has a grandaughter named Lemondrop, and it does not contradict or "mess with" any plots from the book series, then i would say that Lemondrop's existance is "canon" at that point. Does that make sense? I've had to think about this a lot in the Rainbow Brite fandom that i am hugely involved in. Here is the "canonical order" we've established: Level #1 - The Cartoon Level #2 - The Books Level #3 - The Comic Books/Doll Inserts/Playing Cards Level #4 - The German radio plays Level #5 - What the original voice actors say in interviews That's my opinion anyways :) And everytime i see your name Kathryn, it freaks me out! Your name is Kathryn Cawte and my full name is Kathryn Cartee...spooky! ;) ~Katy~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From brngwyn at yahoo.com Wed Apr 16 19:19:00 2003 From: brngwyn at yahoo.com (Brangwyn) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 12:19:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Is Snape's Former DE Status Public Knowledge? In-Reply-To: <1050516139.13222.46300.m10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030416191900.35978.qmail@web20505.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55464 Thank you for the welcome. I'm combining a couple of replies. I wrote: > > It seems Fudge didn't know Snape was a Death Eater. But why not? > > If Snape's trial was as public as Barty Crouch's and Karkaroff's, > > and if Dumbledore stood and pronounced that Snape had been a DE and > > then became a spy against LV (as he did in the memory in the > > Pensieve), why doesn't Fudge know what seems to be common > > knowledge? erisedstraeh2002 wrote: > This particular question stumps me. At Karkaroff's trial, Dumbledore > publicly states: "Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater. However, > he rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and turned spy > for us, at great personal risk. He is now no more a Death Eater than > I am" (GoF, Ch. 30). And while there's no mention of Rita Skeeter at > this trial, Harry does notice "at least two hundred" witches and > wizards in the audience. Which suggests the possibility that Snape's > Death Eater status is public knowledge. But Sirius doesn't know > about it - in Ch. 27, he tells HRH: "But as far as I know, Snape was > never even accused of being a Death Eater..." And Fudge doesn't > appear to know, either, judging from his reaction when Snape shows > him the Dark Mark on his arm. So we either have to believe that the > two hundred witches and wizards in attendance at Karkaroff's trial > kept this information to themselves, or that it's public knowledge > but individuals who one would think would know about it (Sirius and > Fudge) don't know for some unexplained reason. > > While I would think Sirius would know since he was part of the "old > crowd" that presumably fought Voldemort during his firt reign of > terror, it's more perplexing that Fudge doesn't know, since his > fellow Ministry colleague Crouch Sr. knows, as he states at > Karkaroff's trial: "Snape has been cleared by this council...He has > been vouched for by Albus Dumbledore." > > I also note that while Crouch Sr. refers to Snape being "cleared," > it's unclear whether or not Snape actually had a trial. > > ~Phyllis The more I think about it, the more it seems reasonable from one view that Sirius did *not* know about Snape's time as a Death Eater, and certainly not his work as a spy. It works if you accept the premise that the "old crowd" worked in cells, no one small group really knowing the entire organization -- no one but Dumbledore and perhaps a lieutenant like McGonagall. It fits with a hunch I have that even if Snape had shown up at the Potters' and tried to warn them LV was coming, James would have kicked him out. He would have had no reason to believe him. (I digress.) Besides, Sirius has been out of circulation for years and hasn't heard any rumors about Snape, hasn't had a chance to revise his opinion about his boyhood foe. If someone told me the smarmy kid who sat behind me in fifth grade was in the CIA now I would probably have a good belly laugh, no matter how much I disliked him at the time. Fudge is a different matter. Which makes me wonder if Snape ever had a trial at any time, or perhaps it was just some kind of small, private hearing -- though Dumbledore's very public announcement seems to defeat the purpose of a private hearing. Whatever the case, it would have plainly been insane to have *publicly* had a trial or hearing while the war was still going on if there was any thought of using Snape as a spy! It seems to me that it would have been impossible to send him back to LV as a spy if he had been through a public trial. LV surely wouldn't have been pleased if Snape had denied him; and if Snape publicly admitted to being a Death Eater, how was he to account for showing up at the next DE meeting? But note that Crouch Sr. and Dumbledore's words imply different verdicts -- Crouch's words imply that he was found innocent ("cleared,") Dumbledore states that he was a Death Eater. We still don't know if there was a trial, only that Snape rejoined their side and turned spy. Jason wrote: > Anyways, I don't necessarily think Fudge was suprised that Snape was > a death eater, I think he knew that already. I think he was just > shocked that the mark was burning as brightly as it was, and refused to > believe what was happening. That's possible. I just had the feeling from those very funny scenes at the end of PoA ("Fellow seems quite unbalanced," said Fudge, staring after him. "I'd watch out for him if I were you, Dumbledore." PoA, Scholastic, 420.) that Fudge was meeting Snape for the first time and really didn't know anything about him. Fudge is such a politician he's always chummy when he first meets people. > As far as Sirius, he was probably in Azkaban when Crouch was > on trial, because it was after Voldemort was defeated that the trial > occured, and they were rounding up the last of the death eaters. > Sirius said he remembers when Crouch was brought into Azkaban. Because > he wasn't around during the last roundup, he probably never heard > about it. And because it was in Dumbledore's best interests to remain > quiet about the whole situation, he probably never mentioned it to > Sirius after he got out. I follow you about Sirius being in Azkaban and not hearing the remarks about Snape, but why was it in Dumbledore's best interests not to tell Sirius about Snape's past? You think it would have just stirred up Sirius' suspicions about Snape? I still can't come up with a satisfactory reason why Fudge doesn't seem to know Snape was a Death Eater, or that the ministry owes much of their information about LV to him. And I still can't figure out whether Snape had a real trial or not. Fanfic writers need to know these things! ===== Brangwyn __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From diana at slashcity.com Wed Apr 16 18:35:05 2003 From: diana at slashcity.com (Diana Williams) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 14:35:05 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What is Canon? References: Message-ID: <042601c30446$e8905220$0a02a8c0@DianaPC> No: HPFGUIDX 55465 From: > I keep seeing everyone refer to "canon". What is it?? I don't > understand the connection. Please Explain?? "Canon" is basically the show or book, and can be classified in several levels. Primary canon is the movie or book or TV episodes. Interviews with the authors/producers are referred to as "secondary canon" - they aren't in the book or movie or show, but they are out of the mouths of the creators, so they have a certain validity to them. (As long as you remember that creators don't always tell you everything and can change their mind - example, Chris Carter saying Mulder & Scully would never be romantically involved.) Then there's a third level of canon which are authorized books such as the Quidditch and Fantastic beasts books, which are supposedly written by people in the know and approved by The Powers That Be, so they should have things right. Sometimes these forms of canon will contradict each other, in which case the primary canon wins out. Please note that "canon" is never spelled "cannon" - that's a big-barreled gun used for lobbing great big balls at your enemies. (Okay you dirty minds, get out of the gutter) Also why does everyone > refer to the first book as Harry Potter and the Philosophers Stone?? > As far as my knowledge goes in reading the book, it is called Harry > Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone. "Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone" is what the original publication was called. For some reason, the publishers thought that those of us in the U.S. wouldn't "get it" and so they changed to title for the U.S. publication to "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone". Same for the movie. Diana Williams ---------------------------------- website at http://diana.slashcity.com List-Mom to Slash-Writers - www.yahoogroups.com/groups/slash-writers Webmaster for Ink Stained Fingers, a Harry Potter Slash archive http://inkstain.slashcity.net From grace701 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 16 19:45:47 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 19:45:47 -0000 Subject: what about Hagrid with Crossbow? /Who knows Tom Riddle is Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55466 Aja wrote: > This is why I think grace701's idea makes a lot of sense. Hagrid > probably knows that whatever caused such havoc fifty years earlier > was caused by Tom Riddle/Voldemort. If the same things are > happening, he must be back. And if Voldemort appears at the door > and knocks, he is not likely to ask his old school chum Hagrid to > invite him in for tea. And Hagrid isn't likely to be quick enough > to disarm Tom/V with a spell. Me: It would seem a bit logical that Hagrid would want to use his crossbow. It seems, imo, Hagrid doesn't know how to cast spells properly. And if he tried to cast a spell to save his life, he knows he wouldn't be able to because he doesn't have the proper training. We had proof in SS/PS when Hagrid tried to turn Dudley into a pig and was only successful in giving him a pig's tail. > The foreshadowing here could be many things. (1) Voldemort can be > killed, but *not* by magic - it will need to be a muggle invention > like a crossbow or gun, something his immortality spells can't > protect him from. (2) A non-"pure bred" wizard will be the > downfall of Voldemort. (3) Hagrid will cause a "friendly fire" > death in the future. (4) Something Hagrid knows, or finds out, > will be extremely critical in the coming war. (5) Hagrid believes > he will be killed by V or a DE, does not believe himself capable > of preventing it, and is making sure he figures out a way to take > some of them out with him. > Or others I can't come up with... Me: I like your foreshadowings Aja. I'd like to comment on three of them, but either could be possible. In regards to (1): This could happen if the Muggle World (MW) will get involved. I'm not too sure, but didn't JKR mention that MW will be involved in WW. Although, it'll discredit this other theory/foreshadowing that I like: Harry's blood in Voldemort will be V's downfall. I guess it doesn't matter so long as the loser goes. In regards to (2): I had stated before-hand that perhaps Harry is fighting the VWII for someone else and I cannot remember for the life of me, but someone here posted how ironic it would be for it to be a muggle-born (Hermione? =)) those who he hates the most, besides Harry Potter himself! The irony is beautiful. In regards to (4), Hagrid knows more than he's letting on. Come on, how can you be one of Dumbledore's right-hand men/women and not know anything. I've just thought that maybe all those "slips" in SS/PS was said intentionally to help HRH with their quest to find out what was under the trapdoor and who wanted to take it. Has Hagrid ever let anything else "slip" in CoS, PoA and GoF? I don't think so, but correct me if I'm wrong. Then again, there wasn't any need for him to keep secrets, except about Sirius being Harry's parents bestfriend and his Godfather....hhmmm. > Tangent thought: why isn't it common knowledge that Tom Riddle > became Voldemort? Wouldn't information like that be really useful > to the general public, especially clearing people like Hagrid who > were hurt by the seemingly-perfect prefect Tom Riddle in the past? To add to the above. In my original post, I put Tom Riddle/Voldemort when I really wanted to put just Voldemort and I couldn't remember for the life of me if Hagrid knows that Tom Riddle is Voldemort. So could someone clear up who should know that Tom Riddle is Voldemort besides Dumbledore and Ollivander? Greicy From annemehr at yahoo.com Wed Apr 16 19:46:32 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 19:46:32 -0000 Subject: Philosopher vs. Sorcerer (was:Re: What is Canon?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55467 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dicentra spectabilis" wrote: > The original title of the first book is "Harry Potter and the > Philosopher's Stone." It appears this way in all of the British, > Canadian, Australian, and other editions worldwide (including foreign > language). > > Scholastic, JKR's publisher in the U.S., decided to change the word to > "Sorcerer's" because they thought that U.S. audiences would be turned > off by the word "Philosopher's" because it was too dull or something. > JKR approved the change. > > --Dicentra I'll just add that JKR regrets the change now but was just happy to get a U.S. publisher before, so she agreed at the time (this is from more than one interview). The reason this is important is because there were real people called Nicolas and Perenelle Flamel, who lived at least part of their lives in Paris. Nicolas really was and alchemist and really did work on a thing to change base metal to gold and to give immortal life, which was actually known as the philosopher's stone. You could look up alchemy somewhere and find out a lot about it. If you are interested in how the symbolism behind this may relate to "Harry Potter" then look at post #38542. That is why, even though I am American, on this list I usually refer to the first book as PS/SS. Annemehr From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com Wed Apr 16 19:50:01 2003 From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 12:50:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SHIP (FITD) In-Reply-To: <02b501c30416$a0490f00$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: <20030416195001.37833.qmail@web21108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55468 Penny: > Will reply separately to Petra's points, > with whom I am more in agreement > than she seems to think. I read the whole post to find only this!?! Just so that we're on the same page, I asked "Chris foreshadowed"? not because I didn't know you were talking about Columbus and his spin on ship as portrayed on screen. I'm just not entirely clear on how you interpreted CC's interpretation. In other words, exactly what do you think is being foreshadowed? Though really, the above is beside the point (and belonging to the movie list). So what is my point? Read on... Penny: > And, I think this recent > interview on the DVD trumps that "they > are platonic" quote, because if the > "they are platonic" quote was intended to > be as broad as the R/H'ers would have us > believe, then it's a no-brainer that JKR > would have said, "certain feelings between > ...er....two of the three." Let's flow the above argument, shall we? Penny, let me know if I misread you. * * * IF the "they are platonic" quote was intended to be as broad as the R/H'ers would have us believe THEN JKR surely would be of the R/H mindset and THEREFORE JKR would have said, "certain feelings between...er....two of the three" in reflection of such a mindset SINCE she did not say so THEN the "they are platonic" quote cannot be intended to be as broad as the R/H'ers would have us believe * * * Your assertion would be true ONLY if JKR have reasons to clear any and all confusion. My point is that since JKR has no reason to clear any and all confusion at this point in time, the above argument is not sound. Sorry, should have done this in the first place, eh? Petra a n :) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From patricia at obscure.org Wed Apr 16 19:51:44 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 15:51:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] What is Canon? In-Reply-To: <042601c30446$e8905220$0a02a8c0@DianaPC> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55469 On Wed, 16 Apr 2003, Diana Williams wrote: > Then there's a third level of canon which are authorized books > such as the Quidditch and Fantastic beasts books, which are supposedly > written by people in the know and approved by The Powers That Be, so they > should have things right. Sometimes these forms of canon will contradict > each other, in which case the primary canon wins out. Actually, in this case, Quidditch Through the Ages and Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find them can probably be considered primary canon. Though put out under psuedonyms, both books are in fact written by JKR herself. While they are not necessary to understand the events in the main series, they are part of the official background of the Harry Potter world. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Apr 16 20:01:10 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 21:01:10 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] What is Canon? References: <042601c30446$e8905220$0a02a8c0@DianaPC> Message-ID: <3E9DB686.000001.61591@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 55470 Diana Williams wrote - Then there's a third level of canon which are authorized books such as the Quidditch and Fantastic beasts books, which are supposedly written by people in the know and approved by The Powers That Be, so they should have things right. Sometimes these forms of canon will contradict each other, in which case the primary canon wins out. Now me - Who wrote FB and QTA then? Because I thought it was JKR herself. Diana again - Please note that "canon" is never spelled "cannon" - that's a big-barreled gun used for lobbing great big balls at your enemies. (Okay you dirty minds, get out of the gutter) Me again - The word canon was originally used to refer to an author's works in their entirety afaik. eg The Galenic Canon, the collected works of Galen (although the authenticity of some of those is debatable so probably a bad example) Diana again - "Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone" is what the original publication was called. For some reason, the publishers thought that those of us in the U.S. wouldn't "get it" and so they changed to title for the U.S. publication to "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone". Same for the movie. Me again - Other than the pure pointlessness of the change the thing that really gets me is that the Philosopher's Stone is an artifact in history/mythology, whereas the sorcerer's stone is something the publishers made up! Alchemists throughout the ages searched for the Philosopher's Stone, a mythical artifact that would turn base metals to gold and be used to create an elixir of life. Nicholas Flamel was rumoured to have discovered it (and actually did in the books) and his grave is apparently empty, prompting the idea that he did discover it and is living on somewhere in secret. Uh yeah I'm veering ot now so I'll shut up before I have to go and bang my ears in the oven door or something :) K From grace701 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 16 20:06:40 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 20:06:40 -0000 Subject: Date Question;SHIP (was:Re: Hermione's Birthday; SHIP (FITD)) In-Reply-To: <02b501c30416$a0490f00$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55471 Penny quoted: > Q: Do Harry and Hermione have a date? > A: [laughs] No Harry and Hermione are very platonic friends. I'm going to jump into something that maybe controversial, I don't know. Forgive me if I don't make sense, I have been having a headache all day. I can't seem to tell my left from my right. Anyhow... In canon, I have never got the impression that characters who like each other go on dates. Of course, the book is in Harry's point of view, but from the few characters we know of (Cho/Cedric and Percy/Penelope) it seems to be that they immediately become boyfriend and girlfriend. So how does JKR intepret "have a date" to mean? Being that this is a boarding school, there really aren't any places to go out on a date besides Hogsmeade and obviously that is a school trip, why wait months to go out on a date. It's out of the question. It seems that the Yule Ball was a special occasion. The only opportunity for a date in GoF. I assume the students at Hogwarts who like each other get to know one another alone and become a couple. Therefore, imo, the answer to the question doesn't mean anything to me because I see no opportunity to date at Hogwarts. Only the opportunity to get to know someone. Greicy, who is an H/H'er, but would just like to clarify what having a date means to her by not sinking any SHIPS From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Apr 16 20:15:19 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 20:15:19 -0000 Subject: brooms, carpets, & Magic Objects In-Reply-To: <000101c3043a$8a78e960$49788751@j0dhe> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55472 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hollydaze" wrote: > Tom wrote: > > > > For all we know, after all, stepping on the thing (carpet) > > > could make it lift into the air, which would be most > > > inconvenient for in-home usage, if you see what I mean. ;-) > > bboy_mn replied: > > Precisely why they are banded as a charmable object, someone would > > look at them and see a carpet, and step on it. > Hollydaze: > > But we don't know that is definately the case. > > > bboy_mn continues: > > But if someone mistood a flying broom for a really crappy sweeping > > broom and tried to sweep with it, there probably wouldn't be any > > ill effects. A flying broom held in a sweeping position would not > > be likely to take off flying. bboy_mn: I assume you are referring to a carpet flying or levitating as soon as it was stepped on. Well, that is probably unlikely, and I'm not sure Tom was entirely serious when he said it. My point is that you are more likely to use a carpet as a carpet than you are to use a really crappy broom as a broom. > Hollydaze: > It states in GoF that the Firebolt hovered in the air so you could mount it, don't you think a Muggle might find it a bit odd if they say, dropped the broom and it didn't drop, seems similar to the idea of the carpet rising if you step on it (and we don't even know that that is the case!). bbboy_mn: Interesting; this brings up a whole new question; to what extend to charmed objects only work for magical people? I have to believe that to some extent, the function of a magical object relies on the magic of the wizard using it. Could any muggle case a spell if they got their hands on a true wizards wand, or is the wand nothing more than a 'magnifying glass' for the wizards own magical power? ...no power; no results. We would assume that somethng like a nose biting teacup, is charmed to work on whoever uses it, magic or muggle. But what about a time-turner? Is it a wholely self-contained magical object, or does it draw some or all of it's magical power from the wizard using it? It certainly doesn't draw it's magic PURPOSE from the wizard, that part is logically self-contained, but what about it's magical power? I guess we really can't know, but it is an interesting thought. < Hollydaze: > > As a note to the portkey business and why they are not frequently used, could the reason have something to do with the fact that they are noramlly everyday objects (normally rubbish), surely the more portkey's you have laying around the more likely it is that one would fall into the hands of a muggle. > > HOLLYDAZE!!! bboy_mn: I wonder what happens to a portkey that is never used? What if everyone (Weasleys & Diggorys) decided not to go to the World Cup, that would leave the portkey laying on top of the hill indefinitely. Do you think that the portkey's ability fades over time. When the object's magic fades away, the boot becomes nothing more than a common boot. That would seem to be a reasonable safety precausion for an object like this. Also, if I were going to use a portkey on a regualar basis, I think I would enchant an object that I was alway in contact with like my shoes or a belt. Something that would not be likely to be left lying around. Of course, the World Cup portkeys had to be common muggle trash/junk/rubbish aritfacts because they were placed in advance and you wouldn't want muggles to be drawn to them. But for everyday use, I don't think I would use a trash/junk/rubbish like object. It would be a common object that I would have with me all the time, and something that wouldn't really have multiple uses; for example, I don't think enchanting a coin would be wise, too easy to spend it, but I am not likely to use, trade, loan, sell, or leave my belt or shoes laying around. I still take the position that if portkeys were easy, they would be the only thing magical people would use. Floo powder makes no sense if portkeys are easy. Even the use of broom makes little sense, if it only takes a couple of seconds to create a portkey. Apparation seems way too dangerous compared to pointing you wand at your belt, and being safely transported to where ever you want to go. The fact that they don't totally dominate magical travel makes me think there has to be a reason for that, and the only reason I can come up with is that it not an easy thing to do. Just a thought. bboy_mn From siskiou at earthlink.net Wed Apr 16 20:23:41 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 13:23:41 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Date Question;SHIP (was:Re: Hermione's Birthday; SHIP (FITD)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3785618094.20030416132341@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 55473 Hi, Wednesday, April 16, 2003, 1:06:40 PM, grace701 wrote: > Therefore, imo, the answer to the question doesn't mean anything to > me because I see no opportunity to date at Hogwarts. Only the > opportunity to get to know someone. Well, that might work if JKR had simple replied "No, they don't have a date." But she brought the "platonic friends" into it, which is a little harder to explain. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From hieya at hotmail.com Wed Apr 16 19:52:08 2003 From: hieya at hotmail.com (greatlit2003) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 19:52:08 -0000 Subject: Definitions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55475 I am curious to learn whether others believe (like I do) that Snape is truly on the Dumbledore's side. If anyone does not trust Snape, I would like to know if you trust Sirius or Lupin. What distinguishes Snape from Sirius that we should believe Snape is evil while Sirius is good? I think one of the most interesting ideas posed by JKR in these books is that goodness (or evil) doesn't have to come in a definitive mold. I tried and tried to find words to generalize all of the good characters, or words to characterize all of the evil characters, and I couldn't find any, except "good" and "evil" :) For example, I thought that all of the DEs were selfish and cowardly. In some ways, it can be argued that this is true. But, Crouch Jr. was prepared to risk everything to serve Voldie, as he admitted. He was evil, but unselfish nevertheless. The DEs are cowards (especially Voldemort, who tries to kill children, but I digress) but some have shown bits of courage. They came back to Voldie, although they were terrified of him. I cannot find just one word to unite their aims, for they could have joined him for different reasons (protection, desire for power, fear). Anyway, what does this have to do with my argument concerning Snape? I would like to ask you all why we should think he is a DE. Yes, he is nasty, sarcastic and a big bully. But how does that prove that he is a Death Eater? No character is completely "good", whatever you define good to be. Even Harry has had moments where he has imagined torturing or killing people. That doesn't make him evil. Lupin was a kind teacher, but he betrayed the school by not telling DD that Sirius was an Animagus. Why should we not think Lupin is evil? He behaved selfishly. Sirius essentially kidnapped Ron, and then held the trio hostage until Lupin arrived. Sirius tried to kill Snape years ago. Yet, we assume that he is a "good" character. Tom Riddle was the perfect student, a teacher's dream. But he was not what he appeared to be. Hagrid has an obsession with dangerous creatures, he shows favoritism to the Gryffindors, and yet he is portrayed as a "good" person too. What defines goodness and what defines evil? I'd love to hear your opinions on this subject. "greatlit2003" From davewenger2000 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 16 19:56:49 2003 From: davewenger2000 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 19:56:49 -0000 Subject: Lily & Petunia Evans In-Reply-To: <3E9D65FD.8B011BF0@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55476 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susan Fox-Davis wrote: > Recap: I opined that maybe the Evans' were a wizarding family and > Petunia was a Squib, accounting for her bad attitude about magic. Audra > shot it down with: > > >It was not in canon, but in an interview that JKR stated Lily was > >definitely a Muggleborn witch, just like Hermione. > > Rats. And the > psychology was so textbook too. Well here's to their parents, cheers > for supporting Lily's uniqueness but jeers to neglecting their "normal" > kid. Come to think of it, this is not unlike many families with a > gifted child, this is just a different gift. > I tend to agree with that theory though, and I am not sure how much of what JKR said is neccearily true from that point, or used to throw us off. I cam up with what I believe at least to be an interesting theory. (Since I am new to the message board world, and my have my facts wrong I could be way off base .) However, I think that for the simple fact that Harry has not been called a Mudblood by any Malfoy gives a clue to whether or not Aunt Petunia is a squib. If Lily came from a muggle line, Harry would have 'mud' in his veins. Wouldn't that make him a Mudblood? Wouldn't Draco at least call him that once Harry understood the definition. The Malfoy's obviously felt that the Potter name, although they disagree with their 'political' affiliation, is one of a true wizarding family. If I am off base please let me know. Thank you, Dave W. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Apr 16 21:03:16 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 21:03:16 -0000 Subject: The Gleam of Something Like Triumph (WAS: HP and LV die together?) In-Reply-To: <004901c303b2$1aefc8d0$d60a6750@takun> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55477 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "izaskun granda" wrote: > Phyllis: > > And also - it's the use of Harry's blood that triggers the gleam. > > While it's not explicitly stated in GoF, presumably Harry informed > > Dumbledore of Wormtail cutting his hand off for the potion before > he got to the part about Wormtail piercing his arm. So it's not the > use of human flesh or human blood that triggers the gleam, IMO - it's > the use of *Harry's* blood. > > > > > > > Me: > .... Remember Harry saved Wormtail's life. So Voldemort has now blood from Harry and blood and flesh from Wormtail who owes his life to Harry. .... A part of Wormtail is now in LV and this old magic shouldn't be forgoten. .... So my theory is it won't be Pettigrew who prevents Voldemort killing Harry, but his flesh and blood now a part of Voldemort's new body. > > > "izaskun granda" bboy_mn: Ah... good old Voldemort, absolutely supreme in his own arrogance, a self-proclaimed Lord with a capital 'L', a megalomaniac who is so full of himself as to believe that his words and actions are divine and flawless. It's amazing how blind and careless being an absolute supreme being will make you. When you think about it, even with the little information we have, it is easy to see that Voldemort's 'Rebirth' potion is hopelessly flawed, and will certainly be a major contributing factor to his doom. Let's explore- 1.) Bone of his father - except that he killed his own father. Does that corrupt the spell? Can you take the gift of life from someone who's life you have taken? 2.) Flesh of a servant willingly given - first, I don't think it was all that 'willingly' given. More like reluctantly given, or desparately given. My guess is that Wormtail would have sooner done anything ELSE rather than given his flesh, but what choice did he have? He is a person without friends, family, home, or country, abandoned by all; worse than abandoned, he is the enemy of all. Voldemort is the only person on earth who will have him, without Voldemort, Wormtail is no better that Vapormort, doomed to total exile. True Wormtail donated his flesh by his own actions, but I don't think in an emotional sense, he was all that willing. The so-called 'willing' flesh was donated by someone who owes his life to Voldemort's foe, Harry. That certainly has to corrupt the spell. Now not only does Voldemort carry Wormtail's flesh, but with that flesh comes a piece of life debt. Voldemort owes his life to someone who owes their life to Harry; talk about irony. Let's look at Wormtails allegance. He owes Voldemort his safety. Voldemort protects him from potential threats of death. He owes Harry his life; Harry saved him from immeditate imminent death. To whom does he owe the greater allegance. 3.) Blood of a foe forcibly take - except that blood was tainted by the one thing that Voldemort can't understand; love. Within that blood is contained a force of love that is unprecidented in the world. A force of love that defeated the undefeatable, that blocked the unblockable, that saved the unsavable. And we must remember that this force in not neutral, it is fueled by love, and no matter how much magical power and hatred Voldemort has, it will be counter to this new force of love he has to deal with; opposing rather than unifying forces. 4.) The curse and the blood - When Voldemort tried to curse Harry, he transferred some of his own power into Harry, so Voldemort is in a sense fighting himself, or fighting against his own power. I don't think he fully realizes this. I don't think he understands that he can never be a greater wizard that Harry, it would be like trying to beat yourself at chess, there is no way to win, no way to be greater when your opponent has all your power plus his own. And now, Voldemort has Harry's blood; true, he has gained some protection, but now a counter force, a force that goes against everything he stands for lives inside him and works against him. Voldemort lives inside Harry making Harry stronger, and through the scar connection, I speculate, as Voldemort now gets stronger, he also strengthens Harry. Harry lives inside Voldemort weakening him, working against everything that Voldemort stands for. As Harry becomes stronger and the force of love grows greater in his life, so to in proportion will Voldemort grow weaker. Voldemort.... you're an idiot, a hopeless delusional self-absorbed idiot. Just a thought. bboy_mn From the.gremlin at verizon.net Wed Apr 16 21:11:04 2003 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (the.gremlin at verizon.net) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 16:11:04 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Definitions Message-ID: <20030416211104.JEUH19613.out001.verizon.net@out001> No: HPFGUIDX 55478 greatlit2003 wrote: ?I am curious to learn whether others believe (like I do) that Snape is truly on the Dumbledore's side. If anyone does not trust Snape, I would like to know if you trust Sirius or Lupin. What distinguishes Snape from Sirius that we should believe Snape is evil while Sirius is good?? I trust all three: Sirius, Snape, and Lupin. My belief is that people think Snape is evil is because he is consistently horrible to the students. He puts down Neville, Harry?s father, and has been holding a grudge for about twenty years. He is also *known* to, at one point, been a DE. Sirius, on the other hand, was only ?evil? when he was so bent on killing Pettigrew. Any other time, he has been very kind, and has always thought of Harry. Lupin has never been evil, in my opinion. He?s been *stupid*, in not telling DD that Sirius was an animagus, but he hasn?t been evil. I do not believe that Snape is evil. He?s my favorite character. I think he?s done some horrible things in his life that he regrets, to an extent. But he?s not evil. ?Anyway, what does this have to do with my argument concerning Snape? I would like to ask you all why we should think he is a DE. Yes, he is nasty, sarcastic and a big bully. But how does that prove that he is a Death Eater?? The fact that he has the Dark Mark on his arm and the fact that DD said ?Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater.? On a less sarcastic note, even though he was once a DE, I don?t think he was evil. However, I am of the camp that believes Snape has killed people, and wasn?t a ?good DE.? He is not currently a DE. He is a disgruntled teacher who doesn?t like most of his students. And he may be a spy for DD, but I guess we?ll have to wait till OotP comes out to find out, won?t we? The quote may or may not be on my signature, I can?t remember if I put it there or not, so I?ll put it here now: ?There is no black and white; only shades of grey.? In other words, there is no good or evil. Everything is just jumbled into one big mess. People can be good AND evil, as you?ve shown in your examples. That?s just *my* belief. -Acire http://www.underground-newslet.com The Underground--Fixing your addiction for writing. "So sorry-dozed off-what have I missed?" Prof. Lockhart, Chamber of Secrets [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From heidit at netbox.com Wed Apr 16 21:09:38 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 17:09:38 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Date Question;SHIP (was:Re: Hermione's Birthday; SHIP (FITD)) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55479 Susanah wrote: **But she brought the "platonic friends" into it, which is a little harder to explain.** Do you mean in the context of GoF, or in the context of the series as a whole? Given that it is agreed by everyone that this interview was given before the release of GoF, isn't it possible that she was refering to the timeframe of GoF only, and not to books 5, 6, or 7 - and the postbook "universe", whether she writes about it or not? If that's utterly impossible, please explain why. I understand why you might find it unfeasible, but impossible? I don't understand the setup for that. Heidi Tandy *Ask me about Nimbus - 2003* Http://www.hp2003.org From siskiou at earthlink.net Wed Apr 16 21:22:51 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 14:22:51 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Date Question;SHIP (was:Re: Hermione's Birthday; SHIP (FITD)) In-Reply-To: <200304161415.195UfH3Fp3NZFl40@penguin> References: <200304161415.195UfH3Fp3NZFl40@penguin> Message-ID: <11589167840.20030416142251@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 55480 Hi, Wednesday, April 16, 2003, 2:09:38 PM, Heidi wrote: > Do you mean in the context of GoF, or in the context of the series as > a whole? In none of the above (that's why I didn't mention it at all!) ;) I thought Greicy was saying that she discounted the quote entirely because people in HP "don't date". But JKR's answer didn't match this, no matter if she was talking about GoF *or* the entire series. This seems to be a very sensitive subject for you, which I understand, but nowhere did I imply anything was impossible! -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From mmm_poptarts at misery.net Wed Apr 16 19:27:13 2003 From: mmm_poptarts at misery.net (silly_mr_wiggles) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 19:27:13 -0000 Subject: what about Hagrid with Crossbow? (Was Re: Hagrid in Knockturn Alley) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55481 aja_1991 said: > The foreshadowing here could be many things. (1) Voldemort can be > killed, but *not* by magic - it will need to be a muggle invention > like a crossbow or gun, something his immortality spells can't > protect him from. Is it just me or does it seem a bit odd that Hagrid, a half giant and a wizard, has a muggle weapon like a crossbow? It seemed to me that the wizarding world had made its way without muggle inventons, espically because Mr.Weasly was so facinated with them. Anyone else thought about this? If this has been brought up before I am quite sorry, my computer is not wanting to work with the searching. <3jes From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Wed Apr 16 20:29:18 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 16:29:18 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What is Canon? References: <042601c30446$e8905220$0a02a8c0@DianaPC> <3E9DB686.000001.61591@monica> Message-ID: <010901c30456$dc6b1650$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55482 K wrote: > Other than the pure pointlessness of the change the thing that really gets > me is that the Philosopher's Stone is an artifact in history/mythology, > whereas the sorcerer's stone is something the publishers made up! Alchemists > throughout the ages searched for the Philosopher's Stone, a mythical > artifact that would turn base metals to gold and be used to create an elixir > of life. Nicholas Flamel was rumoured to have discovered it (and actually > did in the books) and his grave is apparently empty, prompting the idea that > he did discover it and is living on somewhere in secret. I'm a nasty little English-botching American ;) So i'm curious as to what a "Philosopher" is in Britain? I haven't looked it up in a dictionary, but when i hear the word "Philosopher" i think of someone who reads a lot, is very intelligent and gives lectures on different subjects...like Socrates. And to a young person, they're considered very BORING and uppity. Heck, i'm 23 and it still sounds like a boring occupation to me :P So basically, to a young person (who the first book was originally targeted at), it would certainly have a negative connotation. I'm glad of the change. Now a Sorcerer on the other hand is an evil, powerful, magical wizard where i come from. I'm not sure why, but the word "Sorcerer" has always had an "evil" connotation to me. So perhaps it wasn't the best choice of words either. Maybe "HP and the Wizard's Stone" would've been more appropriate. That's my two sickles ;) ~Katy~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From JessaDrow at aol.com Wed Apr 16 20:54:10 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 16:54:10 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily & Petunia Evans Message-ID: <1d4.7a6712d.2bcf1cf2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55483 In a message dated 4/16/03 4:50:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, davewenger2000 at yahoo.com writes: > If Lily came from a muggle line, Harry would have 'mud' in his > veins. Wouldn't that make him a Mudblood? Wouldn't Draco at least > call him that once Harry understood the definition. The Malfoy's > obviously felt that the Potter name, although they disagree with > their 'political' affiliation, is one of a true wizarding family. > > I feel, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but yes Lily is a muggle, making Harry a 'mudblood'. But I feel this is overlooked for two reasons, one The Potters were quite popular and loved, and anyone daring to insult Harry that way would be making themselves and their families quite unpopular. And two, perhaps it's not widely known among the wizarding world that Lily's family were muggles. They know that Harry was raised by muggle relations but thats all. ~Faith~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Wed Apr 16 21:30:40 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 17:30:40 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Definitions Message-ID: <5b.381cb8ff.2bcf2580@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55484 > > Acire > The quote may or may not be on my signature, I can?t remember if I put it > there or not, so I?ll put it here now: ?There is no black and white; only > shades of grey.? In other words, there is no good or evil. Everything is > just jumbled into one big mess. People can be good AND evil, as you?ve > shown in your examples. That?s just *my* belief. I think it depends greatly on perspective. And the fact that the book is greatly from Harry's POV influences us a lot. Harry sees Snape as a cruel, unfair, pathetic git...then you have the POV's he's taking in. Dumbledore, for whatever reason, trusts Snape. Harry trusts DD's opinion, but is not willing to make it his own...at least not until he gets more information. Hermione (as well as Hagrid, I suppose) is against Snape's methods, but thinks he should be given a chance or at least be respected...mainly because DD trusts him. Then there's Sirius. It seems like he'd kind of be the 'Fonzie' out of all the people Harry knows...not someone he seriously hero worships, but someone he admires and would value his opinion. And, of course, new evidence is constantly being given to us. ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tahewitt at yahoo.com Wed Apr 16 21:35:47 2003 From: tahewitt at yahoo.com (Tyler Hewitt) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 14:35:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Is Harry Gay? In-Reply-To: <1050525905.12537.16652.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030416213547.81386.qmail@web14205.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55485 All you slash fanfic writers out there may not like this, but I think that Harry (or anyone else, for that matter)being gay or bi in canon will ever happen. Not that I wouldn't like to see it. I would LOVE it. These books are so popular, and Harry is so loved, that to make him gay/bi might actually help people examine their prejuduces, and could provide a positive role model for kids who feel 'different'. It would also be a very daring step on JKR's part. I can't think that it would substantially hurt book sales; the people who would object to a gay charecter already object to the HP books for many other pointless reasons. If a charecter is to be gay in the books, I hope it's one of the 'good guys' and not someone like Draco. I'd prefer everyone being straight in the WW (unlikely as that seems) to having the bad guys be the gay ones. Talk about reinforcing stereotypes! Tyler hoping for a Harry/Ron ship in book 6 or 7 __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 16 21:38:55 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 21:38:55 -0000 Subject: Who knows Tom Riddle is Voldemort? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55486 Greicy asked: > So could someone clear up who should know that Tom Riddle is > Voldemort besides Dumbledore and Ollivander? Now me: Well, we don't know for sure, but here's what we have to go on: In Ch. 18 of CoS, Dumbledore says: "Very few people know that Lord Voldemort was once called Tom Riddle." He makes this statement in front of the following people: Harry, Ron, Ginny, Mrs. Weasely, Mr. Weasely, Minerva McGonagall, and a memory charm-impaired Gilderoy Lockhart. (Fawkes and the Sorting Hat are also present.) There's no mention of whether Hermione was ever told, but chances are good that Ron and Harry filled her in after she was un-petrified. In the Chamber (Ch. 17), Riddle tells Harry "It [Voldemort] was a name I was already using at Hogwarts, to my most intimate friends only, of course." One of those "intimate" friends must be Lucius Malfoy, since he possessed the diary with Tom Riddle's name written in it. Crouch Jr. knows, as he tells Harry in Ch. 35 of GoF: "Both of us suffered the indignity of being named after those fathers." Wormtail also knows, because Voldemort tells Harry and Wormtail in the graveyard (before the other DEs appear): "I revenged myself upon him, that fool who gave me his name...Tom Riddle" (GoF, Ch. 33). Who the other "intimate friends" are, we don't know, but at least some of them are probably DEs who were at Hogwarts with Riddle. In addition, presumably Sirius learned of this when Harry related the events in the graveyard to him in Dumbledore's office at the end of GoF. ~Phyllis From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Apr 16 21:41:11 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 21:41:11 -0000 Subject: Hagrid in Knockturn Alley In-Reply-To: <000701c3034c$3dd6c8f0$0e010001@jmd2000> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55487 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy Davis" wrote: > .... I'm just wondering what peoples views are on the reason why > Hagrid was in Knockturn Alley when Harry miss-dialed with his > floo power. Hagrid said he was looking for the "Flesh Eating Slug > Repellant". Is he telling the whole truth? bboy_mn: Question: Where does a 800 pound gorilla sit? Answer: Anyplace he wants. Why is Hagrid in Knockturn Alley? Because he is Hagrid. Certainly for kid witches and wizards this is an extremely dangerous place to be, and it is probably dangerous for most grown wizards and witches. But to Hagrid, the forbidden forest is like a stroll in the park, after that, Knockturn Alley is nothing to him. So, while it may be a dangerous and dodgy place, I can see why Hagrid would be more that comfortable going down there and exploring, having a meade and meeting new people. At Hogsmeade, Hagrid seems to hang around the Hog's Head pub, which seems a bit of a dodgy place itself, I suspect this is a pretty rough bar, and students and most teacher are not likely to go there. So, I don't see it as at all odd that Hargid would be found in place that are a little too rough and dangerous for the ordinary wizard. As far as Hagrid acting a bit odd, when Harry asked him why he was in Knockturn Alley, I can see him simply being uncomfortable being down there after having just told Harry off for being down there. Having said that, I will admit that JKR rarely drop hints for no reason. So I suspect that there was more going on than we have been told so far, but I certainly don't see anything about it that would point to Hagrid being evil. Just a though. bboy_mn From richasi at azlance.com Wed Apr 16 21:42:55 2003 From: richasi at azlance.com (Richasi) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 17:42:55 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily & Petunia Evans In-Reply-To: <1d4.7a6712d.2bcf1cf2@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55488 Faith Said: > I feel, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but yes Lily is a > muggle, making Harry a 'mudblood'. But I feel this is overlooked for two > reasons, one The Potters were quite popular and loved, and anyone daring to insult > Harry that way would be making themselves and their families quite > unpopular. And two, perhaps it's not widely known among the wizarding world that > Lily's family were muggles. They know that Harry was raised by muggle relations > but thats all. Now Me: Yes, Lily is Muggle born because both of her parents were not witches or wizards. They did not come from a magical line. But Harry is not a Mudblood because BOTH of his parents WERE a witch and a wizard and that makes him Pureblood. Hermoine's parents are muggles, and she's a Mudblood because her parents are non-magical. That can't be said of Harry. Richasi From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 16 21:45:35 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 14:45:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lily & Petunia Evans In-Reply-To: <1d4.7a6712d.2bcf1cf2@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030416214535.29562.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55489 --- Faith wrote: > I feel, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but yes Lily is a muggle, > making Harry a 'mudblood'. Lily was NOT a Muggle. Lily was a witch. A Muggle-born witch, yes, but still a witch. When Draco asked if Harry's parents were "one of *our* kind", Harry replied, "They were a witch and a wizard, if that's what you mean." While Harry's family may not have a long magical lineage (on Lily's side, at least), he isn't a Mudblood. Tom Riddle referred to him as a "halfblood", remember. Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From gregorylynn at attbi.com Wed Apr 16 21:19:46 2003 From: gregorylynn at attbi.com (Gregory Lynn) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 17:19:46 -0400 Subject: What's different about COS? Message-ID: <001601c3045d$e7f88780$42ad1e42@ne2.client2.attbi.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55490 You know, with all this talk about how Chamber of Secrets is so much foreshadowing (anyone got a link to an actual quote from someone who would know that actually says so, BTW?) has anyone actually taken the time to list out the things that are different about COS to spawn some thinking about what might be foreshadowed? Off the top of my head I'm thinking: Harry Potter is exposed to non Dursley muggles. Someone purporting to help Harry Potter does him harm (late to school, broken arm) Someone who is supposed to be in the know isn't (Lockhart) The pureblood/mudblood rift is played up here more than anywhere else. Dumbledore is forced to leave Hogwarts. People think Harry is a bad guy. Voldemort returns. Harry kills a servant of Voldemort (the basilisk) with help from a servant of Dumbledore (Fawkes). Harry frees a servant of a harsh master. The servant then protects Harry from that harsh master. I think a lot of these things have some long term potential. I'm sure I missed something. Thoughts? ___________ Gregory Lynn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 16 21:52:21 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 14:52:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily & Petunia Evans In-Reply-To: <20030416214535.29562.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030416215221.37030.qmail@web21008.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55491 --- Faith wrote: > I feel, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but yes Lily is a muggle, > making Harry a 'mudblood'. Lily was NOT a Muggle. Lily was a witch. A Muggle-born witch, yes, but still a witch. When Draco asked if Harry's parents were "one of *our* kind", Harry replied, "They were a witch and a wizard, if that's what you mean." While Harry's family may not have a long magical lineage (on Lily's side, at least), he isn't a Mudblood. Tom Riddle referred to him as a "halfblood", remember. Me: Of course the humorous thing about that whole line is that Voldemart himself is a whole lot more muggle then Harry is! His Father WAS a muggle. Under no circumstance can he be considered a pureblood! BTW: As hatred always needs to find a way to externalize itself rather then self-destruct, Voldemart's hatred of muggles really would have to be more than just a loathing of his father for what he did. It's an externalization of the self-hatred he feels for his own half-muggle heritage. Gee, remind anybody of a maniacal dicator from about 60 years ago? Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Apr 16 21:56:36 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 21:56:36 -0000 Subject: Author mistake, Maybe?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55492 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "graniteworks at s..." wrote: > Did you ever notice that in HP&SS(#1) at the welcoming feast in the > beginning when Harry and Ron first meet Nearly Headless Nick, the > Gryffindor ghost, Nick states that he hasn't eaten anything in almost > 400 years but in HP&CS(#2) Nearly Headless Nick has his 500th death > day party? He seemed to have jumped from 400 years dead to 500 years > dead in one year. Do you think that that is just a mistype or what??? > > "graniteworks" bboy_mn: This collection of figures only does not work if you assume that 'deathday' is day of death. If dead people simple change their birthdays to deathdays then it all add up. Nick was 100 when he died, and it's been dead for 400 years; 100 + 400 = 500, 100 years of life and 400 years of death. So we are merely assume that deathday is day of death, when dead people may simple be celebrating years of existance, and framing the aanniversary in the context of their current state of existance which is death. Just a thought. bboy_mn From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Wed Apr 16 21:58:36 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 21:58:36 -0000 Subject: What is Canon? In-Reply-To: <00be01c3044d$222fd9a0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55493 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Katy Cartee" wrote: > K wrote: > > > I know that views on authors' comments vary > > between fandoms so I don't know how widely > > held my opinion is in this particular fandom. > > I can't speak for the others, but for me, i partially agree with > your assessment. But i believe that the author's > interviews/comments ARE canon UNLESS they are contradicted by the > books. For instance, she's already said that Harry and Hermione > are "platonic" friends. But if, in the future books, that does not > hold true, i will obviously believe the books over what she said > several years ago. Or if she says "Harry will die" and then he > doesn't...well it's obvious which of the two options would > be "canon." Well, as one of the people who will be on the Canon vs. Interpretation panel at Nimbus this summer, I'm always interested to see how folks interpret various things that may or may not be canon. For instance, there's no reason that some of the statements made above couldn't be true at a certain point in time, but not at others. The statement about Harry and Hermione being platonic friends, for instance, could refer to the time of GoF, when that seems to be a perfectly adequate way to describe their relationship. This doesn't mean it will always be true. And if she says, "Harry will die," in an interview (the most she's said, to my knowledge, is something along the lines of, "What makes you think he's going to survive?") that doesn't necessarily mean that a) he'll die during his seventh year (she has also promised to have a sort of epilogue to book seven outlining the futures of some major characters, and that may tell us that Harry dies at the age of 45, for instance) or, that if he does die while still a student, that he'll STAY dead. (While Dumbledore has said there is no SPELL to bring back a person from the dead, that does not discount some other method, such as a potion. Doesn't Snape tell the first years he can teach them to 'stopper death'?) Or perhaps at some point he'll just be MOSTLY dead, like Westley, in the Princess Bride. After GoF came out, for instance, she talked about having to rewrite large parts of it because she needed a conduit for information between Hogwarts and the rest of the wizarding world, and finally decided to use Rita Skeeter for that, although she'd initially had a Weasley cousin in mind. If she'd said ahead of time that we were going to see a Weasley cousin in GoF and then we discovered that we got Rita instead, I'd just think she'd changed her mind and decided that Rita worked better. That's one reason I'm a bit reluctant to call her interviews canon, except as they explain confusing bits from the four (soon to be five!) extant books. I think of the interviews as being more like 'guidance,' especially for my fanfiction writing. But until it appears between the pages of an actual Harry Potter book, in that she has the right to change her mind about what she says--indeed, has an obligation, if the story would be better written a different way--I'd rather not treat tidbits gleaned from her interviews as carved in stone. They're helpful, certainly, but IMO, not canon. > I believe that there are different "levels" of canon and most > won't be explored until the series is finished. For example: > > Level #1 - The Books > Level #2 - What that author says > Level #3 - The Movies > Level #4 - Comic books, cartoons and god knows what else they'll > end up coming out with in the future ;) That's not a bad ranking. I'd probably be more specific and say something like this: Level #1 - The Books Level #2 - What the author says about the completed books Level #3 - The Movies Level #4 - What the author says about future books (This is largely because she has said she has an interest in movie content not contradicting future books.) I prefer to ignore a lot of the merchandizing, so I don't have other things on this list. Should I consider the depiction of Harry on my daughter's cherry liquid hand soap (this is really sitting in my bathroom!) to be canon? Should I regard the (terrible) Quidditch board game as canon? These things don't cut it, in my book. And while I was very interested to see that Chris Van Allsberg co-wrote the screenplay for "Jumanji," I doubt that he would feel that the numerous things done for the cartoon series bear any resemblance to his original book, which was very brief (a boatload of stuff was added for the movie). If JKR were to allow a comic book or cartoon series sometime in the future, I have a bad feeling that it will diverge greatly from what I would consider canon, and perhaps be out of her creative control entirely (which leads me to think that she'd be unlikely to do this). > So if, after the series is finished, the cartoon says that > Dumbledore has a grandaughter named Lemondrop, and it does not > contradict or "mess with" any plots from the book series, then i > would say that Lemondrop's existance is "canon" at that point. > Does that make sense? Except that her name would probably be "Sherbet Lemon" in the British version. God, that would be an awful name. ;) To get back to the difference between the author saying things about the published works vs. the unpublished works, she said at one point that James' Quidditch position was a Chaser. Subsequently, in the first film, she either a) allowed Kloves to make him a Seeker; or b) didn't have much of a choice, not having discovered it until changing it would have inconvenienced a huge number of people; or c) didn't care one way or the other and originally gave the answer "Chaser" to get someone to leave her alone and ask her something sensible. Now, to my mind, the 'Chaser' answer made a great deal of sense and reflected James' general character as a team player. The kind of cooperation necessary for a Chaser to be successful is not unlike the kind of cooperation necessary for three friends to learn to become illegal Animagi for the sake of a fourth friend. It just seems to fit, whereas Harry being a Seeker seemed to fit his character well, as it's a position that is somewhat separate from the other team members and yet the one person who is responsible for the team being able to win. As much as he works with Ron and Hermione to accomplish things, in the end (especially in GoF) he largely seems to be on his own. I also strongly disliked the reference in the film to Seeker-dom being in Harry's 'blood.' I won't go on about this any more, as it would belong on the Movie list, but I'm really hoping that if James' position is revealed in a future CANON book, she hews to her earlier statement concerning this and does not feel an obligation to adhere to something a screenwriter decided to insert, even with her approval (and something which contradicts one of the main messages of the books-- about blood being singularly UNimportant). If she ever decides that Hermione's birthday is NOT September 19th and that Ron's is NOT March 1, by putting the actual dates in a future book, I don't think people should jump all over her for changing her mind. I enjoy feeling smug about predicting Hermione's birth year as 1980 as much as the next person (::waves at Ebony::), and I'm really hoping that James will eventually prove to have been a Chaser, but I'm also prepared to find out that she doesn't really think either of these things is of earthshattering importance, and will not ever really say one way or the other in a CANON book. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Apr 16 22:00:37 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 23:00:37 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] What is Canon? References: <010901c30456$dc6b1650$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> Message-ID: <3E9DD285.000001.60897@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 55494 Katy wrote - I'm a nasty little English-botching American ;) So i'm curious as to what a Philosopher" is in Britain? I haven't looked it up in a dictionary, but when i hear the word "Philosopher" i think of someone who reads a lot, is very intelligent and gives lectures on different subjects...like Socrates. And to a young person, they're considered very BORING and uppity. Heck, i'm 23 and it still sounds like a boring occupation to me :P So basically, to a young person (who the first book was originally targeted at), it would certainly have a negative connotation. I'm glad of the change. Now a Sorcerer on the other hand is an evil, powerful, magical wizard where i come from. I'm not sure why, but the word "Sorcerer" has always had an "evil" connotation to me. So perhaps it wasn't the best choice of words either. Maybe "HP and the Wizard's Stone" would've been more appropriate. Now me - That's a fairly accurate definition of a philosopher, someone who wanders around wondering whether we truly exist or jumping ut of their bath and running through the streets shouting Eureka, but she's not talking about a philosopher she's talking about the 'Philosopher's Stone' which is a specific artefact which has been sought for centuries and in the Potterverse actually exists. There is no such thing as the Sorcerer's Stone or the Wizard's Stone (well technically there's no such thing as the Philosopher's Stone since it was never discovered in real life but there's no mythical Sorcerer or Wizard's stone either) The Philosopher's Stone is as real as the Holy Grail or Excalibur. It would be like deciding that her target readers are for example not religious so her novel Harry Potter and the Holy Grail (which I will point out I'm making up to illustrate my point for those of you who, like me, tend to read these messages in the wee small hours of the morning and get easily confused) would be called Harry Potter and the Magical Grail ..... Uh yeah, I'm not sure I'm putting this very well - but my point is that she didn't invent the Philosopher's Stone, it's not the Goblet of Fire, it's an actual part of history/mythology and as such the choice of words wasn't hers and changing the name is silly. Expecially the implication that American kids are somehow more easily bored or more stupid than the rest of the English-speaking world, all of whom coped perfectly well with the word Philosopher. K From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Wed Apr 16 22:03:42 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 18:03:42 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who knows Tom Riddle is Voldemort? Message-ID: <1ac.136b8652.2bcf2d3e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55495 Phyllis writes: > In the Chamber (Ch. 17), Riddle tells Harry "It [Voldemort] was a > name I was already using at Hogwarts, to my most intimate friends > only, of course." One of those "intimate" friends must be Lucius > Malfoy, since he possessed the diary with Tom Riddle's name written > in it. Crouch Jr. knows, as he tells Harry in Ch. 35 of GoF: "Both > of us suffered the indignity of being named after those fathers." > Wormtail also knows, because Voldemort tells Harry and Wormtail in > the graveyard (before the other DEs appear): "I revenged myself upon > him, that fool who gave me his name...Tom Riddle" (GoF, Ch. 33). Who > the other "intimate friends" are, we don't know, but at least some of > them are probably DEs who were at Hogwarts with Riddle. I have to disagree with this a bit-mainly due to a difference in age. Most if not all of the DE's weren't at Hogwarts when Voldemort/Riddle was there...they were there during Snape's time. And, though I can't find any canon at the moment, I suspect that Lucius is included in that. As for Crouch JR...in "the pensieve" (GOF, ch 30 it says that he is in his late teens (hard back, 594). So he wasn't even born when LV was in school. Of course, there are probably ooddles of as-of-yet unnamed persons who are/were those 'intimate friends' ^^ ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Wed Apr 16 22:10:10 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 18:10:10 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Author mistake, Maybe?? Message-ID: <2b.3db8ac82.2bcf2ec2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55496 In a message dated 4/16/2003 6:00:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bboy_mn at yahoo.com writes: > wrote: > > Did you ever notice that in HP&SS(#1) at the welcoming feast in the > > beginning when Harry and Ron first meet Nearly Headless Nick, the > > Gryffindor ghost, Nick states that he hasn't eaten anything in almost > > 400 years but in HP&CS(#2) Nearly Headless Nick has his 500th death > > day party? He seemed to have jumped from 400 years dead to 500 years > > dead in one year. Do you think that that is just a mistype or what??? > > > > "graniteworks" > > > bboy_mn: > > This collection of figures only does not work if you assume that > 'deathday' is day of death. > > If dead people simple change their birthdays to deathdays then it all > add up. > > Nick was 100 when he died, and it's been dead for 400 years; 100 + 400 > = 500, 100 years of life and 400 years of death. > > So we are merely assume that deathday is day of death, when dead > people may simple be celebrating years of existance, and framing the > aanniversary in the context of their current state of existance which > is death. > > Just a thought. Cassie: I'm assuming book 2 took place in 1992. Nick died in 1492 (CoS, Ch. 8. page 133) So...logically...he's been dead for 500 years. So I don't think the 'celebrating years of existance' theory works in this case and that there was a flaw. ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 16 22:30:23 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 15:30:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Who knows Tom Riddle is Voldemort? In-Reply-To: <1ac.136b8652.2bcf2d3e@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030416223023.29942.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55497 --- Phyllis wrote: > In the Chamber (Ch. 17), Riddle tells Harry "It [Voldemort] was a > name I was already using at Hogwarts, to my most intimate friends > only, of course." One of those "intimate" friends must be Lucius > Malfoy, since he possessed the diary with Tom Riddle's name written > in it. But when Draco was talking to Crabbe and Goyle about the Chamber of Secrets, he said, "It was fifty years ago, of course, so it was before his time." So Lucius was NOT at Hogwarts at the same time as Tom Riddle. Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From erinellii at yahoo.com Wed Apr 16 21:52:41 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 21:52:41 -0000 Subject: Lily & Petunia Evans In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55498 - "Dave" < wrote: If Lily came from a muggle line, Harry would have 'mud' in his > veins. Wouldn't that make him a Mudblood? Wouldn't Draco at least > call him that once Harry understood the definition. The Malfoy's > obviously felt that the Potter name, although they disagree with > their 'political' affiliation, is one of a true wizarding family. > If I am off base please let me know. Apparently the Wizarding world doesn't operate by the "one drop" prejudice. Only people who have TWO muggle parents are ever called "mudbloods". In the first book, Seamus Finnigan (I believe it was?) described himself as "half and half",- one parent a muggle, the other magic. This is what Voldemort is, also, and there is apparently no stigma attached to having muggle ancestors, so long as ALL your ancestors weren't muggles. Erin From anneu53714 at sbcglobal.net Wed Apr 16 23:06:17 2003 From: anneu53714 at sbcglobal.net (Anne) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 23:06:17 -0000 Subject: Re Is Harry gay?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55499 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Maria " wrote: > > It's clearly stated, that he doesn't like all the fame, and so it > could be very likely that he does something just to annoy all his > worshippers. Like turning gay or bisexual very openly, and stuff > like that. I believe it was Tyler Hewitt who said he hoped that any gay characters turn out to be from the "good guys" rather than the "bad guys" (e.g. Draco), because I agree that a "bad" gay character would just enforce some ugly stereotypes. I hope that if JKR has chosen to have any gay or bisexual characters, their sexuality will be a seamless extension of the personalities we already know (and in most cases love), rather than something that appears to be "tacked on" or arbitrary. IMO Harry "turning" gay or bisexual "just to annoy his worshippers" might qualify for the arbitrary category. Besides, people don't "turn" gay or bisexual. They either are, or they aren't. Anne U (straight but not narrow) From suzchiles at pobox.com Wed Apr 16 23:09:37 2003 From: suzchiles at pobox.com (Suzanne Chiles) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 16:09:37 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What's different about COS? In-Reply-To: <001601c3045d$e7f88780$42ad1e42@ne2.client2.attbi.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55500 Gregory Lynn said: > Off the top of my head I'm thinking: > > Harry Potter is exposed to non Dursley muggles. er. > > I think a lot of these things have some long term potential. I'm > sure I missed something. Thoughts? I'm not sure about this one. Harry's been exposed to a great many non-Dursley muggles in his life, especially at school. Suzanne From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Wed Apr 16 23:46:57 2003 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 23:46:57 -0000 Subject: Eros and Thanatos(Re: Is Harry gay?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55501 Hi listies, Harry, cet obscur objet du d?sir (especially when you wait for the fifth book of his adventures)... Is he gay? Well, I don't know; that's his private life after all. However... When I started reading JKR's books but didn't know already that HPfGU existed (I was such an ignorant...), I used to lurk through the web looking for some information about the Harry Potter series and happened to visit several sites that presented the story from a gay point of view. I' m not sure there's canon evidence about that interpretation of the books; however I have to confess that JKR's way of writing allows it. First, she's a fine observer of teen age psychology, and she uses it logically in her books. It's particularly clear in GoF, when she describes the relationships between her young heroes and their respective behaviours. We can see that Harry is a very realistic representation of a fourteen years old boy: the way he scamps his Divination homework (UK edition, p 195), his fantasies about becoming a famous Quidditch player or about winning the Triwizard Cup (see pp 169-170), his procrastination when he has to work out the golden egg's puzzle (p 342), the way he plays with Ron during the Transfiguration lesson (p336); well, all of these sequences are the perfect illustration of the classical behaviour of a boy teenager of fourteen. That's also what we use to call "the awkward age", with it's silly but necessary laughters (think about the confrontation between the Weasleys and Dudley at the Dursleys's), and its need for a group in which you can elaborate your own forthcoming personnality. It also appears in the book, for example when JKR describes the boys's dormitory at their arrival at Hogwarts (see pp 169-170); there are several stereotypes of what you can find in a teenager's world: posters of the models they need to grow up (Victor Krum,West Ham football team or the Chudley Cannons), and of course, friends. If you observ teen age boys, you can't deny that they don't mix easily with girls. Put them all in a refectory, for example, and you will see that there are tables of girls from one part, and tables of boys from another one. A psychologist I worked with told me that it was a kind of a protective attitude. When you are only fourteen, when your body is changing so fast that sometimes you don't even know how to deal with it, searching a conforting group is a reflex,and you naturally turn towards the fellows of the same sex: it's a kind of a protection, because generally you share with them the same preoccupations, the same fears and expectations. You feel more secure with them, because you are not ready yet to deal easily by the opposite sex. Harry isn't an exception to this rule, so that's why he prefers to be with Ron rather than with Hermione, that's why during the second task Ron plays the part of "what he'll sorely miss". It doesn't mean, in my opinion, that Harry has a crush on Ron. Ron is simply a boy like Harry, a peer, someone Harry thinks he can rely on, his best friend , his teen age brother in arms. Concerning the girls, they start interesting him, but more particularly, they impress him. He doesn't already know how to deal by them, because he is already immature. See the whole chapter of "The unespected task", and especially pp 338-339, when the girls are nearly depicted as if they were menaces! That's simply because Harry is still a kid, even if he has a terrible doom. He still needs to play, to take his time of growing up and learning, to behave as if he was a normal boy. The following of the novel, thanks to that realistic painting of Harry as an average teenager, takes much more strengh. The scenes in the graveyard seem all the more unbearable because the victim of such a barbarity is simply a kid whose only purpose is growing up and living as he diserves to do. So, I don't think that the way JKR describes Harry's feelings towards Ron and the girls can suggest that the kid is gay. It's only a very fine painting of an average boy teenager, and a way of making Voldemort's inhumanity stand out. But we mustn't disregard, however, the possibility of homosexual connotations in the way JKR describes some situations or characters. For example, Lockhart looks rather effeminate in the way he dresses or combs his hair; and does he run after Harry only because the kid is famous and could provide him with more publicity? There's of course Colin's sollicitude, and Draco's intent to become Harry's friend. Some wrote (forgive me, I don't remember who exactly) that Draco was in a way obsessed with Harry, and that it could be a clue that he had a crush on him. Maybe. But in that case, we must say the same about Snape, whose behaviour towards Harry looks strangely like Draco's. By the way, what was there between Snape, Sirius and James when they were students? And between Remus and Sirius, who as animagi look strangely the same? Why did Snape hate James, Sirius and Remus? Why did he joined Voldemort? And what can we think about Barty Crouch Jr's feeling towards the Dark Lord? Did Snape feel the same when he was a Death Eater? How can we interpretate the scenes in the graveyard? Why does Voldemort use to the verb "to conquier", that belongs both to the vocabulary of war and the vocabulary of love? And Harry's dream of being rapted by an eagle owl and led to Voldemort; is it an allusion to Ganymede, the young mortal that Zeus as an eagle rapted so he would become his lover? Okay, these are only hypothetical perspectives. We don't have any canon evidence to say that one of them would lead to something. But there's one thing we can't deny; JKR is a master in the art of suggestion. And everybody knows that suggestion is one of the bases of erotism. We can't deny either that the Harry Potter series deals with death, and that many times Thanatos and Eros are companions. They are also Harry's companions. Harry, the Boy Who Lived thanks to a woman who gave him protection combining in her sacrifice love and death. Harry, the boy that Voldemort WANTS DEAD. Maybe one of the reasons this kid fascinates so many people is that he has love and death walking by his side. Just like Hamlet, or Don Juan... Well, well... Maybe I'm completely wrong, and I'm just too influenced by my job (one can't spend all the week working with teenagers without trying to understand their behaviour) or by my fascination towards baroque civilisation. I'd just like to finish saying, but that's an evidence, that the Harry Potter series is a great artwork, whichever point of view you take on it. Pax vobis, and forgive me if all of this was given yet a commentary, Iris From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 16 23:51:13 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 23:51:13 -0000 Subject: What's different about COS? In-Reply-To: <001601c3045d$e7f88780$42ad1e42@ne2.client2.attbi.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55502 Gregory Lynn wrote: > You know, with all this talk about how Chamber of Secrets is so > much foreshadowing (anyone got a link to an actual quote from > someone who would know that actually says so, BTW?) has anyone > actually taken the time to list out the things that are different > about COS to spawn some thinking about what might be foreshadowed? Now me: I have an actual quote from JKR (who I believe qualifies as someone who would know ;) from a November 15, 2002 BBC Newsround: JKR: "Key things happen in book two and no one knows how important those things are yet." http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/tv_film/newsid_2482000/2482249.stm I firmly believe in the "Harry as Heir of Gryffindor" theory, and I think that there are many clues in CoS that support this theory. It's in CoS that we first learn that Gryffindor's first name was "Godric", and can make the connection to the Potters living in Godric's Hollow. JKR said so herself in a Fall 2000 BBC Newsround: Q: "And I'm going to ask one other question which you'll say isn't clever at all. The significance of the place where Harry and his parents lived, the first name ? " JKR: "Godric Gryffindor. Very good, you're a bit good you are, aren't you?" Q: "Thank you." JKR: "I'm impressed. My editor didn't notice , I said to her haven't you noticed any connection between where Harry's parents were born, not born, where they lived and, one of the Hogwarts houses and she's sitting there going erm, I'm not being rude about Emma she's brilliant editor, the best I've ever. But know she didn't pick that up either. You're a bit good you are." And the link: http://www.geocities.com/aberforths_goat/text.htm In addition, if you parallel the life of St. Godric with Harry, there are all sorts of connections which support the Heir of Gryffindor theory - there are legends about St. Godric protecting a hunted stag which parallel the workings of the Fidelius Charm (and of course, the stag is both James' animagus and Harry's patronus), and St. Godric, like Harry, was able to know of events happening at great distances. In CoS, Fawkes, who I also believe to have once been Gryffindor's phoenix, helps Harry fight the basilisk. In legend, the griffin was believed to be the adversary of serpents and basilisks. I believe this to be a parallel to Gryffindor's Fawkes and Slytherin's basilisk, and perhaps a clue to a possible good-against-evil fight between Gryffindor and Slytherin 1,000 years ago. When I brought this up before, Judy Shapiro added her theory that this could also be a foreshadowing of Harry's eventual defeat of Voldemort. Other clues in CoS that support the "Fawkes was once Gryffindor's phoenix" theory are that Fawkes lives in Dumbledore's office, which has a griffin-shaped doorknocker, and also contains Gryffindor's sword and the Sorting Hat, which we learn in GoF was once Gryffindor's hat. In support of the "Harry as Heir of Gryffindor" theory, in CoS, Fawkes brings two items previously owned by Gryffindor to Harry's aid in the Chamber - the Sorting Hat and the sword. ~Phyllis From jizzkitty420 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 16 18:42:19 2003 From: jizzkitty420 at yahoo.com (Giselle Sicle) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 11:42:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Author mistake, Maybe?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030416184219.67447.qmail@web13114.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55503 "graniteworks at sbcglobal.net" wrote: Did you ever notice that in HP&SS(#1) at the welcoming feast in the beginning when Harry and Ron first meet Nearly Headless Nick, the Gryffindor ghost, Nick states that he hasn't eaten anything in almost 400 years but in HP&CS(#2) Nearly Headless Nick has his 500th death day party? He seemed to have jumped from 400 years dead to 500 years dead in one year. Do you think that that is just a mistype or what??? "graniteworks" Graniteworks, I'm assuming that you are new to HP for grown ups and you haven't really caught up. Some fans believe that it was a typo, but others have different theories. For more information you can read up on certain topics in the HP4GU archives. Maybe some others can help you out with the exact post numbers. By the way only 65 Days until Oop!!!!!

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From nienna_the_weeper at hotmail.com Wed Apr 16 22:01:59 2003 From: nienna_the_weeper at hotmail.com (Louise E) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 22:01:59 +0000 Subject: What is Canon? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55504 >From: "graniteworks at sbcglobal.net" > >I keep seeing everyone refer to "canon". What is it?? I don't >understand the connection. Please Explain?? Also why does everyone >refer to the first book as Harry Potter and the Philosophers Stone?? >As far as my knowledge goes in reading the book, it is called Harry >Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone. > Hi, I've just joined so I've just finished reading the Humungus Big File (an understatement!) and as far as I'm aware "canon" is the text of the books, and basically anything JKR has written or mentioned in an interview, for example. Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone is the UK title for the first book, while the US version is entitled Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone, but both titles refer to the same book. Lou She is the cloaked woman in mourning, but she is not Despair, even though Grief is her domain; tears flow from her ceaselessly and her house looks out upon the Walls of the Night. Instead she is Pity and Suffering that brings wisdom and endurance beyond hope; from the waters of her tears much is born that is unlooked for, yet it is often that which sustains life. _________________________________________________________________ On the move? Get Hotmail on your mobile phone http://www.msn.co.uk/mobile From sheila at aliehs.com Wed Apr 16 23:21:08 2003 From: sheila at aliehs.com (Sheila) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 16:21:08 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: DADA Teacher References: Message-ID: <018301c3046e$dd6ce200$9865fea9@brown> No: HPFGUIDX 55505 "derannimer" wrote: > Gina wrote: > >>I totally agree. I immediately thought of a femme fatale. Not > only that, but I thought of Snape. He's kind of the opposite of > poisoned honey. Seems bitter, but is really good. We know Snape has > always taken the opportunity to derise and sneer at the the DADA > teachers. Maybe this DADA teacher could give him a run for his > money. Love interest even? << > > Woo-hoo! Yeah, actually, I immediately thought of that too, but > figured that I. . . er. . . wasn't going to mention it. I thought > maybe it was just my Bent SnapeFan-hood reasserting itself. But Gina, > for the record, yeah. > > I hope we see something there. ; ) > > Devika then wrote: > > >The word poisoned does have an evil connotation to me. However, I > >really hope the new DADA teacher is not evil. > > Yeah, we've seen quite enough of those. But she doesn't necessarily > have to be *evil* to be a femme fatale. She just has to be. . . > *fatale.* ; ) > > >When I thought about it some more, I decided that the new teacher > >could be someone with a sweet personality who faced so much > >suffering and loss during VWI that she has become bitter and > >sorrowful. The sweetness of her personality has been "poisoned," so > >to speak, by her grief and pain. > > Yeah. . . but that doesn't quite work. It's not "fermented honey," or > something, it's *poisoned* honey. "Poisoned," to me, has clear > connotations of *danger.* After reading this about the new DADA. The character reminds me a little of the character of Ms. Parker from "The Pretender." - http://www.tnt.tv/Title/Display/0,5918,334068~Series,00.html Ms. Parker is "poisoned honey." *If you watched the show, you know what I'm talking about.* She looks good. She looks so good and is sooo intimadting that boys from all the houses like her. Even Draco Malfoy. She prolly wears the latest designer robes... She does her job and she does it very well. I'd bet she could give Snape a run for his money. I bet she either was once thinking about becoming a Death Eater or she lost someone or someones to Voldemorte's movement. But the "poisoned" part makes me think she's way more darker than Snape even. I bet she gives a lot of "sickly sweet" smiles to students & teachers alike. Sheila. http://aliehs.com From blackgold101 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 16 23:28:45 2003 From: blackgold101 at yahoo.com (Marci) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 23:28:45 -0000 Subject: Lily & Petunia Evans (& Who's more magical?) In-Reply-To: <1d4.7a6712d.2bcf1cf2@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55506 ~Faith~ >I feel, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but yes Lily is a muggle, making > Harry a 'mudblood'. But I feel this is overlooked for two reasons, one The > Potters were quite popular and loved, and anyone daring to insult Harry that > way would be making themselves and their families quite unpopular. And two, > perhaps it's not widely known among the wizarding world that Lily's family > were muggles. They know that Harry was raised by muggle relations but thats > all. Moi: I'm confused about where all this is coming from. Lily was not a muggle. Muggles are non-magic folk. Lily = magical, not muggle. Lily was a muggle-born witch (like Hermione), making her a mudblood (like Hermione). Presumably, James was a pureblood. Harry is a halfblood. Why? Both of his parents are not pureblood, only one of them is. Harry is not a mudblood because neither of his parents are muggles. So, does this mean Harry (with two magical parents) is more powerful than Voldemort (with one magical parent)? Marci From slstich at hotmail.com Wed Apr 16 23:28:53 2003 From: slstich at hotmail.com (Shanna) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 18:28:53 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Author mistake, Maybe?? References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55507 ----- Original Message ----- From: graniteworks at sbcglobal.net Did you ever notice that in HP&SS(#1) at the welcoming feast in the beginning when Harry and Ron first meet Nearly Headless Nick, the Gryffindor ghost, Nick states that he hasn't eaten anything in almost 400 years but in HP&CS(#2) Nearly Headless Nick has his 500th death day party? He seemed to have jumped from 400 years dead to 500 years dead in one year. Do you think that that is just a mistype or what??? Hi. I actually noticed that too! I would guess it's an author error. As far as I know, ghosts can't ever eat after they die, so that's the only plausible explanation I can think of at the moment. Shanna From JessaDrow at aol.com Thu Apr 17 00:22:07 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 20:22:07 EDT Subject: What's different about COS? Message-ID: <11e.209b35ca.2bcf4daf@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55508 In a message dated 4/16/03 7:56:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com writes: > Q: "And I'm going to ask one other question which you'll say isn't > clever at all. The significance of the place where Harry and his > parents lived, the first name ? " > > JKR: "Godric Gryffindor. Very good, you're a bit good you are, > aren't you?" > > Q: "Thank you." > > JKR: "I'm impressed. My editor didn't notice , I said to her haven't > you noticed any connection between where Harry's parents were born, > not born, where they lived and, one of the Hogwarts houses and she's > sitting there going erm, I'm not being rude about Emma she's > brilliant editor, the best I've ever. But know she didn't pick that > up either. You're a bit good you are." > > I've read the books over several times and am currently rereading them, am I stupid that I missed it somewhere? Where in the books did it mention the name of the home the Potters lived in? If anyone could clear this up for me, I'd greatly appreciate it. Thanks, ~Faith~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From yutu at wanadoo.es Thu Apr 17 00:34:23 2003 From: yutu at wanadoo.es (izaskun granda) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 02:34:23 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape was Re: Re Is Harry gay?? References: <3E9D90F0.60C1133A@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <001401c30479$190640e0$f316253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 55509 Susan Fox-Davis wrote: I think I've figured one other reason why Snape favors the Slytherin kids so strongly. Let's face it, many of their parents are "faithful" Death Eaters who returned to The Dark Lord promptly. Anticipating the return, Snape endeared himself to the next generation so he had a chance of surviving as a "traitor" and all. ME: Could be, but remember, Snape was a Slytherin, and he's head of the Slytherin house, so no wonder he's fonder of the Slytherin students and Slytherin and Griffindor houses' rivalry goes back to... don't know, ever???? So it's not so surprising that he favours Slytherins and tries to belittle Gryffindors, is it?? And let's face it, Snape is quite a visceral person, even if he tries to hide it, when he hates, boy, he does hate, so no reason for him to change his dislikes once he becomes a teacher. Not very mature, I agree, but that's the way things are in real life. "isaskun" From yutu at wanadoo.es Thu Apr 17 00:44:55 2003 From: yutu at wanadoo.es (izaskun granda) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 02:44:55 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Harry gay? References: Message-ID: <003001c3047a$91dda890$f316253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 55510 Davidndc wrote: Unfortunately, the characters that I would have liked to discover as gay are not and those who are gay are not really surprizing. My question: Who is gay????? I don't remember any mention in canon about anybody being gay. So, who are you thinking of? "izaskun" From yutu at wanadoo.es Thu Apr 17 01:01:55 2003 From: yutu at wanadoo.es (izaskun granda) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 03:01:55 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Definitions References: Message-ID: <005401c3047c$f1d2dd90$f316253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 55511 geratlit2003 wrote: For example, I thought that all of the DEs were selfish and cowardly. In some ways, it can be argued that this is true. But, Crouch Jr. was prepared to risk everything to serve Voldie, as he admitted. He was evil, but unselfish nevertheless. The DEs are cowards (especially Voldemort, who tries to kill children, but I digress) but some have shown bits of courage. They came back to Voldie, although they were terrified of him. Me: Mind you, most of them came back to Voldemort "because" they were afraid of him. Imagine Voldemort's wrath... We all know what awaits those who DIDN'T come back to him when summoned: "And here we have six missing Death Eaters... three dead in my service. One, too cowardly to return... he will pay." Nevertheless. I truely think Snape is on Dumbledore's side, nasty and unfair as he may seem to his pupils, I think he's not a Death Eater anymore. Why do I think this?? Well, it's a long theory, but I think Dumbledore is pretty sure because he knows something about Snape that we don't, he tells Harry, "that's something between Prof. Snape and me". And I trust Dumbledore in this point. "izaskun" From yutu at wanadoo.es Thu Apr 17 01:13:32 2003 From: yutu at wanadoo.es (izaskun granda) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 03:13:32 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who knows Tom Riddle is Voldemort? And other questions related References: Message-ID: <006701c3047e$90cd7440$f316253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 55512 ----- erisedstraeh wrote: In the Chamber (Ch. 17), Riddle tells Harry "It [Voldemort] was a name I was already using at Hogwarts, to my most intimate friends only, of course." One of those "intimate" friends must be Lucius Malfoy, since he possessed the diary with Tom Riddle's name written in it. . Me: Well, here's something interesting that I've kept asking myself. Was Malfoy with Voldemort at Hogwarts? I don't know. Voldemort must be sixtysomething, he was in his 6th or 7th year at howgarts when the CoS was opened and that happened 50 years ago. I don't think Malfoy is that old, I had always pictured him younger, maybe because he has a young son. So, if Malfoy was not with Voldemort at school, how did he get the diary?? Do you think Voldemort himself gave it to him, many years later? We already know he has some compromising items at home, probably things Voldemort has given him. "izaskun" From PlaidMouse at kittymail.com Thu Apr 17 01:46:46 2003 From: PlaidMouse at kittymail.com (plaidmouse) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 01:46:46 -0000 Subject: Author mistake, Maybe?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55513 graniteworks: > > Did you ever notice that in HP&SS(#1) at the welcoming feast in the > > beginning when Harry and Ron first meet Nearly Headless Nick, the > > Gryffindor ghost, Nick states that he hasn't eaten anything in almost > > 400 years but in HP&CS(#2) Nearly Headless Nick has his 500th death > > day party? He seemed to have jumped from 400 years dead to 500 years > > dead in one year. Do you think that that is just a mistype or what??? bboy_mn: > > This collection of figures only does not work if you assume that > 'deathday' is day of death. > > If dead people simple change their birthdays to deathdays then it all > add up. > > Nick was 100 when he died, and it's been dead for 400 years; 100 + 400 > = 500, 100 years of life and 400 years of death. > > So we are merely assume that deathday is day of death, when dead > people may simple be celebrating years of existance, and framing the > aanniversary in the context of their current state of existance which > is death. But if he had been dead for only 400 years, since he died in 1492 (it says that on the cake), then the book would have taken place in 1892. I think that was just a mistake. Or it might have some significance we just don't know about yet. Or it's possible that a ghost can still eat the first hundred years after death (which would explain why there was food at Nick's party: for the newly-dead) but I don't know why that would be. Who knows? Mouse From Meliss9900 at aol.com Thu Apr 17 02:16:56 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 22:16:56 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Re: What's different about COS? Message-ID: <132.1dd89344.2bcf6898@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55514 In a message dated 4/16/2003 8:50:20 PM Central Standard Time, JessaDrow at aol.com writes: > I've read the books over several times and am currently rereading them, am I > > stupid that I missed it somewhere? Where in the books did it mention the > name > of the home the Potters lived in? If anyone could clear this up for me, I'd > > greatly appreciate it. > > Thanks, > > Its mentioned in SS/PS but I think Godric's Hollow is the name of the Village they lived in not necessarily the name of the house. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Thu Apr 17 02:25:13 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 02:25:13 -0000 Subject: What's different about COS? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55515 Gregory Lynn wrote: > You know, with all this talk about how Chamber of Secrets is so > much foreshadowing (anyone got a link to an actual quote from > someone who would know that actually says so, BTW?) has anyone > actually taken the time to list out the things that are different > about COS to spawn some thinking about what might be foreshadowed? Phyllis replied: I firmly believe in the "Harry as Heir of Gryffindor" theory, and I think that there are many clues in CoS that support this theory. It's in CoS that we first learn that Gryffindor's first name was "Godric", and can make the connection to the Potters living in Godric's Hollow. JKR said so herself in a Fall 2000 BBC Newsround: Me: That's all great circumstantial evidence, and there's so much of it that I would be very surprised should it turn out to be just a giant red herring. I think that the most important thing, though, is the establishment of the fact that Tom Riddle was the Heir of Slytherin - i.e. that such a thing as being an heir of someone who lived a thousand years ago is possible. I doubt that so many people would have embraced the 'Heir of Gryffindor' theory so willingly had that not happened. OTOH... JKR said that 'key things *happen*' (emphasis mine). Does that qualify as 'happen?' Does all that wonderful evidence? I'm really liking this 'Hagrid with a crossbow' observation. The full quote is: Seconds after they had knocked, Hagrid flung it open. They found themselves face-to-face with him aiming a crossbow at them. Fang the boarhound barked loudly behind him. +++++++++++++++++++ "Oh," he said, lowering the weapon and staring at them. "What're you two doin' here?" "What's that for?" said Harry, pointing at the crossbow as they stepped inside. "Nothin' - nothin' - " Hagrid muttered. "I've bin expectin' doesn' matter - Sit down - I'll make tea -"" +++++++++++++++++++(Chapter 14) It's very interesting, I think. I've personally always thougth that he'd been expecting the person who'd been strangling the chickens, but it might be something more interesting. Maria From basementgirl74 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 17 05:01:33 2003 From: basementgirl74 at yahoo.com (The Sparrow) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 22:01:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Answers, questions...... Message-ID: <20030417050133.93129.qmail@web40507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55516 Dave W. wrote in the last digest: I think that for the simple fact that Harry has not been called a Mudblood by any Malfoy gives a clue to whether or not Aunt Petunia is a squib. Me: I used to wonder about this too. I'm not sure if Draco knows that much about Lily (based on recollections of the top of my head). I don't have the books with me but I don't recall anyone else except Draco using the term, plus, I don't think he's said it since CoS-suposedly the book with all the clues in it). It's interesting to note here that Hagrid says 'There isn't a witch or wizard alive today that isn't half-blood or less" (I'm sorry if that's not the exact quote, I'm also even sorrier if I'm mixing up the rewritten movie lines for the book!!) If this *is* in the canon, then is Hagrid just being Hagrid again, or does this say something immense for the Malfoys? I agree with you that the Potters are obviously an old family, as much as the Malfoys I'd say.(I think perhaps that the Malfoys and the Potters are the Montegues and Capulets of their time!) After all, Lliy and James had quite a bit of gold in Gringotts, and what kind of young man just out of wizard school owns an invisibility cloak? I also wondered about the wonderfully easy acceptance of Lily's witchiness by her parents- it made me think that perhaps one of her parents is secretly a witch, or at least a grandparent. That lead me to ask something else. Hagrid helped Harry to get his school things, but what do (supposed) Muggle families like Hermiones do to find Diagon Alley? Do they get an instruction letter? Are there perhaps 'guides' that you meet in The Leaky Cauldron? I have a question which has no doubt been raised before- In GoF (sorry can't give you exact quote) Hermione-I think-says that the heads of the three schools would be on the judging panel since they were alive at the last one in 1794. That was over 200 years ago, yet Dumbledore is only 150. This would also make Karkaroff and madam Maxine over 200 years old as well. I've also wondered about Hagrid's age, since he said somewhere not too long after that he thought he'd never be alive to see the Triwizard cup played again. Any ideas? JKR couldn't have made a mistake as easy as that. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From drdara at yahoo.com Thu Apr 17 04:46:16 2003 From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 21:46:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Snape being a DE/Birthdays Message-ID: <20030417044616.72385.qmail@web14501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55517 Not having been in this group for long. Don't know if anyone has thought this. But seeing how Snape's loyalty is being questioned. We all know that Snape became DD's spy on Lord Voldie. We all think that he was recruited after becomming a DE. How about this for thought, Snape only became a DE becuase he was DD' spy from day 1. Maybe DD knowing that Voldie was getting up in power, while Snape was at school, DD became a mentor so that DD could use Snape as his spy. Snape never was a true DE who switched sides. He was always on DD side from the start. He became a DE on DD's orders and then convinced Lord Voldie that he would make a good spy for Lord Voldie, but in all reality he was a spy for DD. Does that make sense to anyone other than me??? And on the subject on birthdays. In the US every state has their own cutoff date for when they have to turn 5 by to go to kindergarten. I know in North dakota it's late august here in Colorado it is November. So it's not unusual to say that in Hogwarts that they have the same reasoning. If you don't turn 11 by halloween then you start next year. "Danielle" __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From katydid3500 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 17 06:12:57 2003 From: katydid3500 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 23:12:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Answers, questions...... In-Reply-To: <20030417050133.93129.qmail@web40507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030417061257.99608.qmail@web40508.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55518 The Sparrow wrote: I have a question which has no doubt been raised before- In GoF (sorry can't give you exact quote) Hermione-I think-says that the heads of the three schools would be on the judging panel since they were alive at the last one in 1794. That was over 200 years ago, yet Dumbledore is only 150. This would also make Karkaroff and madam Maxine over 200 years old as well. Me: I don't see why the other headpersons have to be as old as Dumbledore... The Sparrow:I've also wondered about Hagrid's age, since he said somewhere not too long after that he thought he'd never be alive to see the Triwizard cup played again. Any ideas? Yes, we do know Hagrid's age. I don't know off the top of my head, but we do know what year he was in when he got expelled (3rd, 4th?) And we know that he was expelled 50 years before Chamber of Secrets...so just to not be wrong, he's between 61 and 67 in Chamber of Secrets...I'm thinking around 65. And him saying he didn't think he would live to see the Triwizard Cup has nothing to do with his age....it's because it had been discontinued because it was dangerous and he assumed, incorrectly of course, that it would never be brought back. ~Kathryn --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From heidit at netbox.com Thu Apr 17 06:36:35 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (heidi) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 23:36:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Answers, questions...... In-Reply-To: <20030417061257.99608.qmail@web40508.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030417063635.49831.qmail@web80502.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55519 > The Sparrow wrote: > I have a question which has no doubt been raised > before- In GoF (sorry can't give you exact quote) > Hermione-I think-says that the heads of the three > schools would be on the judging panel since they > were > alive at the last one in 1794. That was over 200 > years > ago, yet Dumbledore is only 150. This would also > make > Karkaroff and madam Maxine over 200 years old as > well. > She never says that Dumbledore or the others were alive then. She simply said that the heads of the schools were on the judging panel, which means that the people who were heads of the school two hundred years ago were on the judging panel. You're misreading the "they" reference, it seems. Hope this clears it up! heidi ===== heidi tandy They say its a sign of mental health to hold apparently contradictory ideas in your mind. The world of late has been a particularly exotic stew of horror and beauty. There are killers, there are saints. The trick is to find the right spot on the spectrum between abject despair and total obliviousness. And then carry on... Joel Achenbach From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Apr 17 06:50:36 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 06:50:36 -0000 Subject: Author mistake, Maybe?? In-Reply-To: <2b.3db8ac82.2bcf2ec2@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55520 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, IAmLordCassandra at a... wrote: > In a message dated 4/16/2003 6:00:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > bboy_mn at y... writes: > > > > wrote: > > ... He seemed to have jumped from 400 years dead to 500 years > > > dead in one year. Do you think that that is just a mistype or what??? > > > > > > "graniteworks" > > > > > > bboy_mn: > > > > This collection of figures only does not work if you assume that > > 'deathday' is day of death. > > > > ...edited... > > > > Just a thought. > > Cassie: > > I'm assuming book 2 took place in 1992. > > Nick died in 1492 (CoS, Ch. 8. page 133) > > So...logically...he's been dead for 500 years. > > So I don't think the 'celebrating years of existance' theory works in this > case and that there was a flaw. > > ~Cassie~ bboy_mn: You're right, I should have looked it up before I commented. I knew there was a date on the Deathday Cake, but I forgot that is specifically say, "DIED 31st October 1492". Although, I suspect the noted discrpancy comes from JKR inadvertently mixing up birthdays and death days. It's not easy to keep track of all those things. Sorry, for not checking before I commented. bboy_mn From a_rude_mechanical at yahoo.com Thu Apr 17 03:45:18 2003 From: a_rude_mechanical at yahoo.com (a_rude_mechanical) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 03:45:18 -0000 Subject: What about Lupin? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55521 I had an interesting thought while rereading PoA. I have always loved Lupin, he's one of my favorite characters. He's interesting and he always remains so calm and cool. But this time, I had a totally different emotional reaction to him. This is my question: is it possible that Lupin is not the good person that we believe him to be? Possible reason for thinking that Lupin is...not good. (I just can't call him evil, I can't!) 1) The sneakoscope goes off on the train when the trio enter Lupin's compartment. 2) He doesn't bother to tell Dumbledore about Sirius being an animagus. Could it be that he didn't want Dumbledore to know that Pettigrew was also? 3) Much of his dialogue in the last few chapters is ambiguous, and could be read several different ways--for example: (when Lupin finds out Sirius got a copy of the Daily Prophet inside Azkaban) " 'How did you get this?' Lupin asked Black, thunderstruck. 'Fudge,' said Black. 'When he came to inspect Azkaban, he gave me his paper. And there was Peter, on the front page...on this boy's shoulder...I knew him at once...' 'My God,' said Lupin softly, staring from Scabbers to the picture in the paper and back again. 'His front paw...'" It is possible to read this as though Lupin and Pettigrew were trying to keep this all a secret... 4) (this is straight from PoA, and I hadn't noticed it before) Black believed, back when all the Voldie stuff went down, that Lupin was the spy. Why? I know it's kinda far-fetched, but it really can be read two ways. What do y'all think?? Elisabeth From ladyfarro at attbi.com Wed Apr 16 23:12:07 2003 From: ladyfarro at attbi.com (kae) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 16:12:07 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] what about Hagrid with Crossbow? (Was Re: Hagrid in Knockturn Alley) References: Message-ID: <001b01c304a0$4658a980$3caae10c@attbi.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55522 Hagrid had a crossbow with him, when he and Harry, Neville, Malfoy, and Hermione went into the forbidden forest to look for what was killing the unicorns. (Harry Potter And The Sorcerer's Stone). Lady Farro From iluvgahan at yahoo.com Thu Apr 17 06:39:46 2003 From: iluvgahan at yahoo.com (iluvgahan) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 23:39:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Answers, questions......(specifically the Triwizard Tournament) Message-ID: <20030417063946.99276.qmail@web13502.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55523 The Sparrow wrote: <<>> now me: The exact quote is, "...the Heads of the participating schools are *always* (my stressing) on the panel...because all three of them were injured during the Tournament of 1792, when a cockatrice the champions were supposed to be catching went on the rampage." ...which does NOT necessarily mean that Dumbledore, Maxime, and Karkaroff were the same Heads of school as in 1792, just that ever since that event the Heads have been given that privledge.. ===== Christina "I solemnly swear that I am up to no good." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From kristen at sanderson-web.com Thu Apr 17 10:43:27 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (GKJPO) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 10:43:27 -0000 Subject: What about Lupin? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55524 What do I think? I think you'll be right at home here :). The Evil! Lupin theory has indeed been discussed several times... but... --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_rude_mechanical" wrote: > > 1) The sneakoscope goes off on the train when the trio enter Lupin's > compartment. > That was for Scabbers > 2) He doesn't bother to tell Dumbledore about Sirius being an > animagus. Could it be that he didn't want Dumbledore to know that > Pettigrew was also? > True, but then he would also have to tell Dumbeldore that he betrayed his trust at Hogwarts. > 3) Much of his dialogue in the last few chapters is ambiguous, and > could be read several different ways--for example: > > (when Lupin finds out Sirius got a copy of the Daily Prophet inside > Azkaban) > > " 'How did you get this?' Lupin asked Black, thunderstruck. > > 'Fudge,' said Black. 'When he came to inspect Azkaban, he gave me his > paper. And there was Peter, on the front page...on this boy's > shoulder...I knew him at once...' > > 'My God,' said Lupin softly, staring from Scabbers to the picture in > the paper and back again. 'His front paw...'" > > It is possible to read this as though Lupin and Pettigrew were trying > to keep this all a secret... > Possible I guess. Although if he didn't know until he looked at the picture that it was Scabbers, then why would he be upset that Sirius had the newspaper? > 4) (this is straight from PoA, and I hadn't noticed it before) Black > believed, back when all the Voldie stuff went down, that Lupin was > the spy. Why? > > I know it's kinda far-fetched, but it really can be read two ways. > What do y'all think?? They both think the other's the spy. I think they discounted Peter because they didn't believe he was strong enough. Dumbledore's speech that has now been highlighted even more for book 5 is that LV is very good at spreading misinformation and mistrust. As you can see, I'm not in the Evil!Lupin camp :). Don't worry, there will be plenty who will agree with you and point out other stuff as well. For my part, when I listen to JKR interviews and how much she likes the Lupin character, I have a hard time believing he's evil. Now, Fudge...that's another matter :). Kristen From the_fox01 at hotmail.com Thu Apr 17 07:24:43 2003 From: the_fox01 at hotmail.com (The Fox) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 03:24:43 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What about Lupin? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55525 From: "a_rude_mechanical" >Possible reason for thinking that Lupin is...not good. (I just can't call >him evil, I can't!) Well, he *is* a bit of a sneak, isn't he. :-) So, after all, is Our Hero, and so are all his best friends and closest allies. >1) The sneakoscope goes off on the train when the trio enter Lupin's >compartment. Quite right, and the guy's a werewolf (with no plans to come clean about this). Dumbledore knows, and Harry and that crowd know, and you and I know, that Lupin's all right, but as far as the wizarding world in general is concerned, werewolves are bad news. That sneakoscope can't tell the difference between a werewolf with a heart of gold (and a dependable chemist for a colleague) and any other werewolf. >2) He doesn't bother to tell Dumbledore about Sirius being an animagus. >Could it be that he didn't want Dumbledore to know that Pettigrew was also? You don't think Dumbledore knows full well that Lupin's friends were (and are) Animagi? Granted, he doesn't seem to have been aware that Scabbers was actually Peter Pettigrew all this time, but he must have known about the Marauders back in the day. >3) Much of his dialogue in the last few chapters is ambiguous, and could be >read several different ways--for example: > >(when Lupin finds out Sirius got a copy of the Daily Prophet inside >Azkaban) > >"'How did you get this?' Lupin asked Black, thunderstruck. > >'Fudge,' said Black. 'When he came to inspect Azkaban, he gave me his >paper. And there was Peter, on the front page...on this boy's shoulder...I >knew him at once...' > >'My God,' said Lupin softly, staring from Scabbers to the picture in the >paper and back again. 'His front paw...'" > >It is possible to read this as though Lupin and Pettigrew were trying to >keep this all a secret... You've lost me there, I'm afraid. I'm trying to get my head around the idea that Lupin and Pettigrew were trying to keep it all a secret and *then* read the passage, and it's still not making sense to me. :-) >4) (this is straight from PoA, and I hadn't noticed it before) Black >believed, back when all the Voldie stuff went down, that Lupin was the spy. > Why? That's easy. Sirius knew that there was a spy. He knew that he, Sirius, wasn't it. He knew it had to be either Lupin or Pettigrew, and he figured Pettigrew hadn't the wit. Peter was always the runt of that litter, wasn't he? (Though he apparently fancied himself D'Artagnan to their Three Musketeers ... hmm, that might be an idea, there.) Fox ... Come on, Nature Just because I don't feel weak Don't mean I feel so strong. -- the Proclaimers .............................. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From KWS at rStreet.Com Thu Apr 17 08:33:43 2003 From: KWS at rStreet.Com (Kathleen Salisbury) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 01:33:43 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What about Lupin? References: Message-ID: <3E9E66E7.4040308@rStreet.Com> No: HPFGUIDX 55526 Hi! My first time posting..... Lupin is one of my favorite characters too and I think he's a good guy. Here are my thoughts about these questions: a_rude_mechanical wrote: > Possible reason for thinking that Lupin is...not good. (I just can't > call him evil, I can't!) > > 1) The sneakoscope goes off on the train when the trio enter Lupin's > compartment. I think the sneakoscope goes off on the train because Ron has Scabbers in his pocket. Ron mentions that the sneakoscope was malfunctioning since he bought it (I think I'm remembering this correctly). And Harry finally buries it in his trunk wrapped in socks when they are in their dorm room because it keeps going off. Scabbers sets it off in my opinion. > 2) He doesn't bother to tell Dumbledore about Sirius being an > animagus. Could it be that he didn't want Dumbledore to know that > Pettigrew was also? I think that he didn't want Dumbledore to know that Pettigrew was an animagus. Peter was one of the gang of friends back when James, Sirius and Remus were at Hogwarts. I think telling Dumbledore about Peter would have probably led to questions about the rest of them. > 3) Much of his dialogue in the last few chapters is ambiguous, and > could be read several different ways--for example: > > (when Lupin finds out Sirius got a copy of the Daily Prophet inside > Azkaban) > > " 'How did you get this?' Lupin asked Black, thunderstruck. > > 'Fudge,' said Black. 'When he came to inspect Azkaban, he gave me his > paper. And there was Peter, on the front page...on this boy's > shoulder...I knew him at once...' > > 'My God,' said Lupin softly, staring from Scabbers to the picture in > the paper and back again. 'His front paw...'" > > It is possible to read this as though Lupin and Pettigrew were trying > to keep this all a secret... I think Lupin just realized that Scabbers is Peter from the paper, just as Sirius did when he first saw it. > > 4) (this is straight from PoA, and I hadn't noticed it before) Black > believed, back when all the Voldie stuff went down, that Lupin was > the spy. Why? This is an intriguing question and one that I've also thought about when I read POA. I think we will eventually find out why Sirius thought Lupin could have been the spy. Oh please don't let Lupin be bad. I don't think I could bear it. ;-) Kathleen, new to this email list and enjoying it tremendously From katie.jarvis1 at ntlworld.com Thu Apr 17 09:23:07 2003 From: katie.jarvis1 at ntlworld.com (addictedtobass2003) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 09:23:07 -0000 Subject: Reason why Harry has never been called a Mudblood Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55527 The reason why Harry has never been called a mudblood, is simply the fact that he isn't one. Mudbloods have BOTH muggle parents >> we know that Harry's parents were a witch and a wizard because they both attended Hogwarts. However, Lily Potter was a "Mudblood" (I hate that word) as is mentioned in CoS by Tom Riddle a.k.a Lord Voldemort. "You'll be back with your dear Mudblood mother soon, Harry." Harry has a izard and a witch for parents, the fact that one of his parents was muggle-born is irrelevant. Hope this clears anyone's queries up addictedtobass2003 "We are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided." From Nickamano at btinternet.com Thu Apr 17 10:27:25 2003 From: Nickamano at btinternet.com (Nick) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 10:27:25 -0000 Subject: What about Lupin? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55528 Hiya Elisabeth - Here are my views on your interesting premise - > 1) The sneakoscope goes off on the train when the trio enter Lupin's > compartment. The Sneakoscope was going off becasue of scabbers. Harry had to stick it in an old pair of socks 'cause it was going off all the time (cause of Scabbers being close by all the time). > 2) He doesn't bother to tell Dumbledore about Sirius being an > animagus. Could it be that he didn't want Dumbledore to know that > Pettigrew was also? Don't forget he thought Pettigrew was dead. And his worst shame from Hogwarts days was lying to Dumbledore. Why would he feel any different as an adult? > 3) Much of his dialogue in the last few chapters is ambiguous, and > could be read several different ways--for example: > > (when Lupin finds out Sirius got a copy of the Daily Prophet inside > Azkaban) > > " 'How did you get this?' Lupin asked Black, thunderstruck. > > 'Fudge,' said Black. 'When he came to inspect Azkaban, he gave me his > paper. And there was Peter, on the front page...on this boy's > shoulder...I knew him at once...' > > 'My God,' said Lupin softly, staring from Scabbers to the picture in > the paper and back again. 'His front paw...'" > > It is possible to read this as though Lupin and Pettigrew were trying > to keep this all a secret... I think if he wanted to keep it secret it would have been easier to simply deny Black's assertations. They only believed Black really on the trust thay had for Lupin's judgement. All Lupin would have had to do was show he didn't believe Black and Harry/Ron?Hermione wouldn't have believed him either (in my belief). > 4) (this is straight from PoA, and I hadn't noticed it before) Black > believed, back when all the Voldie stuff went down, that Lupin was > the spy. Why? Black didn't trust anyone (except James and Lilly. (though why exactly hasn't been explained yet). It could have simply been a sign of the times when noone knew who to trust. > I know it's kinda far-fetched, but it really can be read two ways. > What do y'all think?? > > Elisabeth Well that's what Nickamano thinks (putting away his 'bursting of the bubble' pin). In my view, Lupin will become as much of ally to Harry as Black is (though not as close) he's the only remaining close friend of his father's beside Black. And he also represnets a wizarding world minority that could be pursuaded to join Mr V. (like Hagrid and the giants). Nickamano running away before anyone can jump on him!! From selah_1977 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 17 11:56:45 2003 From: selah_1977 at yahoo.com (Ebony) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 11:56:45 -0000 Subject: The timeline on the DVD *confirms* canon. In-Reply-To: <20030416175636.80990.qmail@web20422.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55529 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Eileen wrote: >> Ebony wrote: > >And I think that this *must* settle the birthday > >debate once and for all. > > You think so? Let's not get hasty here! The birthday > debate has been going on for years. Will a little > detail like this stand in the way of it? > > I am not at all comfortable with the idea of taking > information from merchandise, even if approved. There > is plenty of precedent for author-approved merchandise > which is completely wrong. > > I don't care much about the controversy myself, but I > am not about to take direction from a DVD. The books > are my canon and I'll take interviews into > consideration. Hermione's birthday *has been* confirmed in the books already, in PoA. Dumbledore calls Hermione and Harry "two thirteen year old wizards". But many fandomers (esp. those educated under the UK system) protested because in England, *no one* born on September 19 is *ever* admitted to school early. Ever. No exceptions, etc. (It should also be noted that Hogwarts is from every indication in Scotland, not England, and that JKR taught in Portugal, whose cut-off date and admissions process is not generally discussed.) The fandom's most reputable news source, The Leaky Cauldron, reported that Warner Home Video confirmed that Rowling *did* approve the timeline. For me, that's as good as if she had written it herself. And if you're "not about to take direction from a DVD", then let's hope that paper books don't go the way of eight-tracks, eh? I feel that this is just as much canon as some of JKR's more vague interviews. This issue might be a minor one, but then again, so are several others that JKR clarified in GoF, the schoolbooks, and now. The care that our author has taken to clarify even this minute detail shows the care she puts into everything in her universe. The proceedings from the "What is canon?" panel that Barb and others will be sitting on at Nimbus - 2003 will be especially interesting. So yes, I appreciate the clarification, and I thank JKR for hearing her fans. --Ebony, who also enjoyed the Diagon Alley tour and thinks that the new stores that were there will figure in as early as OotP From drdara at yahoo.com Thu Apr 17 05:12:27 2003 From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 22:12:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Answers, questions...... In-Reply-To: <20030417050133.93129.qmail@web40507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030417051227.15906.qmail@web14509.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55530 I also wondered about the wonderfully easy acceptance of Lily's witchiness by her parents- it made me > think > that perhaps one of her parents is secretly a witch, > or at least a grandparent. > That lead me to ask something else. Hagrid helped > Harry to get his school things, but what do > (supposed) > Muggle families like Hermiones do to find Diagon > Alley? Do they get an instruction letter? Are there > perhaps 'guides' that you meet in The Leaky > Cauldron? > If you were to say that Lily's paarent accepted her witchyness just fine becuase there was a witch in the family, then all muggles have witches and wizards in the family, because it seems that all muggleborn students don't seem to have a problem with their kids going to hogwarts. If they did no muggleborn student would ever be there. Lilly's parents accepting her for who she was, all that shows us is that they cared for their daughter no matter what. Parents who really care about their kids will accept them for who they are. Besides maybe they looked through her schoolbooks and saw how nice and handi it would be to have a witch in the family. The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo > http://search.yahoo.com > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From jmd at jvf.co.uk Thu Apr 17 08:00:57 2003 From: jmd at jvf.co.uk (Jeremy Davis) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 09:00:57 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hagrid in Knockturn Alley References: Message-ID: <004901c304b7$7b6049a0$0e010001@jmd2000> No: HPFGUIDX 55531 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy Davis" wrote: > > .... I'm just wondering what peoples views are on the reason why > > Hagrid was in Knockturn Alley when Harry miss-dialed with his > > floo power. Hagrid said he was looking for the "Flesh Eating Slug > > Repellant". Is he telling the whole truth? > From: "Steve" > Having said that, I will admit that JKR rarely drop hints for no > reason. So I suspect that there was more going on than we have been > told so far, but I certainly don't see anything about it that would > point to Hagrid being evil. I agree with you. I certainly don't think Hagrid is evil. I just think there is a reason he's there that he's trying not to reveal. In PS Hagrid kept saying "I shouldn't have said that!". I simply think he's just trying a bit harder not to tell. :-) Jeremy From katie.jarvis1 at ntlworld.com Thu Apr 17 09:03:09 2003 From: katie.jarvis1 at ntlworld.com (addictedtobass2003) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 09:03:09 -0000 Subject: What's different about COS? In-Reply-To: <11e.209b35ca.2bcf4daf@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55532 > erisedstraeh2002 at y... writes: > I've read the books over several times and am currently rereading them, am I > stupid that I missed it somewhere? Where in the books did it mention the name > of the home the Potters lived in? If anyone could clear this up for me, I'd > greatly appreciate it. Now me: I'm not sure if JKR actually mentioned where the Potters *live*. I believe that Godric's Hollow (convenient as is may sound to the "Harry is the heir of Gryffindor" believers) is just the location where the Potters were *staying* whilst hoping to escape and hide from Voldemort, thinking they were safe. Does anyone agree here? Or disagree? Katie From katie.jarvis1 at ntlworld.com Thu Apr 17 11:14:23 2003 From: katie.jarvis1 at ntlworld.com (addictedtobass2003) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 11:14:23 -0000 Subject: Reason why Harry has never been called a Mudblood Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55533 The reason why Harry has never been called a mudblood, is simply the fact that he isn't one. Mudbloods have BOTH muggle parents >> we know that Harry's parents were a witch and a wizard because they both attended Hogwarts. However, Lily Potter was a "Mudblood" (I hate that word) as is mentioned in CoS by Tom Riddle a.k.a Lord Voldemort. "You'll be back with your dear Mudblood mother soon, Harry." Harry has a wizard and a witch for parents, the fact that one of his parents was muggle-born is irrelevant. Hope this clears anyone's queries up addictedtobass2003 "We are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided." From JessaDrow at aol.com Thu Apr 17 11:52:26 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 07:52:26 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Schooldays Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55534 Greetings, I'm just reading CoS again and I'm up to the point where Arthur and Lucius start to fight, and had a thought. This has probably been discussed before.. But Harry, Ron and Draco all being the same age and all, what are the odds that Arthur, Lucius and James all went to school together? I realize that Ron is the second youngest, which would probably mean that Arthur is somewhat older than Lucius and James, but it still makes for some interesting thoughts. ~Faith~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From drdara at yahoo.com Thu Apr 17 12:43:20 2003 From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 05:43:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Schooldays In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030417124320.2829.qmail@web14506.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55535 --- JessaDrow at aol.com wrote: > > I'm just reading CoS again and I'm up to the point > where Arthur and Lucius > start to fight, and had a thought. This has probably > been discussed before.. > But Harry, Ron and Draco all being the same age and > all, what are the odds > that Arthur, Lucius and James all went to school > together? I realize that Ron > is the second youngest, which would probably mean > that Arthur is somewhat > older than Lucius and James, but it still makes for > some interesting > thoughts. > > I respond, in GOF Molly stated that she was interested in the Whomping Willow becuase it wasn't there before she graduated Hogwarts. The whomping Willow was planted after she graduated when Lupin was admitted. So she and Arthur are anywhere from 2 -10 olders than Harry's parents were. However it is possible that Lucius was there both during when Molly and Arthur was there and the Marauders. Maybe he started or was halfway thru when Molly and Arthur was there and he graduated a year or two after the Maruaders started. danielle __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From ameliagoldfeesh at yahoo.com Thu Apr 17 13:12:52 2003 From: ameliagoldfeesh at yahoo.com (ameliagoldfeesh) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 13:12:52 -0000 Subject: What about Lupin? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55536 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_rude_mechanical" wrote: > I had an interesting thought while rereading PoA. I have always > loved Lupin, he's one of my favorite characters. He's interesting > and he always remains so calm and cool. But this time, I had a > totally different emotional reaction to him. This is my question: > is it possible that Lupin is not the good person that we believe him > to be? > What do y'all think?? > > Elisabeth Well, if you go back in the achives (a task worthy of Hercules with Yahoo Search)you'll find message 39362 by Pippin who started the "Lupin is Ever-So-Evil" line of thought. Whole threads are dedicated to defending or defaming the LYCANTHROPE. Helpfully Yours, A Goldfeesh scene from Scaramouche: Mary Antoinette and Noel de Maynes upon finding an illegal pamphlet hidden in the Queen's room) N: (reading the title of the pamphlet): "Liberty, equality, fraternity." A: "Noel, the people that write such things...what do they really want?!" From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 17 14:05:50 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 14:05:50 -0000 Subject: Godric's Hollow (WAS: What's different about COS?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55537 Faith asked: > Where in the books did it mention the name of the home the Potters > lived in? Now me: In Ch. 1 of PS, Professor McGonagall says to Dumbledore: "What they're *saying*..is that last night Voldemort turned up in Godric's Hollow. He went to find the Potters." Katie wrote: > I'm not sure if JKR actually mentioned where the Potters *live*. I > believe that Godric's Hollow (convenient as is may sound to > the "Harry is the heir of Gryffindor" believers) is just the > location where the Potters were *staying* whilst hoping to escape > and hide from Voldemort, thinking they were safe. Me again: A short time ago, we had a go-round on whether Godric's Hollow is the name of the Potter's house or the name of the town/village/hamlet where they lived. I happen to think it's the name of the town/village/hamlet, given the use of the term "Hollow," which suggests a general location rather than a specific house. Others, however, thought it could be the name of the Potter's house. I don't think this was just a temporary hide-out, however. Remember, the Fidelius Charm protects you wherever you are (unless the Secret Keeper divulges the information, of course). And Sirius tells Harry in the Shrieking Shack "I set out for *your parents' house* straight away" (Ch. 19, PoA, my emphasis). He refers to Pettigrew being in a "hiding place," but the Potters are referenced as being at their house. ~Phyllis From grace701 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 17 15:08:31 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 15:08:31 -0000 Subject: Founders' Offices (was )e: What's different about COS? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55538 Phyllis wrote: > Other clues in CoS that support the "Fawkes was once Gryffindor's > phoenix" theory are that Fawkes lives in Dumbledore's office, > which has a griffin-shaped doorknocker, and also contains > Gryffindor's sword and the Sorting Hat, which we learn in GoF was > once Gryffindor's hat. In support of the "Harry as Heir of > Gryffindor" theory, in CoS, Fawkes brings two items previously > owned by Gryffindor to Harry's aid in the Chamber - the Sorting > Hat and the sword. I believe that Dumbledore's office used to be Gryffindor's, like Phyllis. Which has got me thinking where are the other Founders' offices? Are they being used by professors? Or are they closed off? If they are closed then why are they closed? Do Gryffindor professors have access to Gryffindor's office if they become Headmasters/mistresses? For example, *if* Dumbledore was in Gryffindor and became Headmaster his office is Gryffindor's and if a Slytherin alumni becomes Headmaster/mistress his office will be Slytherin's? What do you guys think? Maybe this should be added to "50 questions": Where are they other Founders' offices and are they being used? Greicy, who has nothing better to do than come up with crazy theories From jmmears at comcast.net Thu Apr 17 14:53:31 2003 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 14:53:31 -0000 Subject: More Questions (was Re: The timeline on the DVD *confirms* canon). In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55539 Eileen wrote: > > I am not at all comfortable with the idea of taking > > information from merchandise, even if approved. There > > is plenty of precedent for author-approved merchandise > > which is completely wrong. > > > > I don't care much about the controversy myself, but I > > am not about to take direction from a DVD. The books > > are my canon and I'll take interviews into > > consideration. Ebony replied: > Hermione's birthday *has been* confirmed in the books already, in > PoA. Dumbledore calls Hermione and Harry "two thirteen year old > wizards". But many fandomers (esp. those educated under the UK > system) protested because in England, *no one* born on September 19 > is *ever* admitted to school early. Ever. No exceptions, etc. (It > should also be noted that Hogwarts is from every indication in > Scotland, not England, and that JKR taught in Portugal, whose cut- off > date and admissions process is not generally discussed.) But the point is that Hermione *is* presumed to be in the English school system prior to her admission to Hogwarts, so JKRs Portugese experience and Hogwarts location aren't really relevant to understanding how to reconcile Hermione's admission to Hogwarts as a 10 year old. I've never really cared one way or another about Hermione's age, since I don't believe it makes any difference concerning her characterization or role in the books. However, now that this issue has come out with the DVD's timeline, I'm curious about the explanation for this apparent disconnect. There are two possibilities I can see. First, Hermione (because of her extreme precocity) is an extremely rare exception to the UK practice of not admitting children to school unless they are of age on Sept. 1. If she has always been the youngest in her class, then I suppose it would be consistent for Hogwarts to admit her at the age of ten because she would have received the same number of years of schooling as her muggle- born/educated peers. However, the UK members of the list have been fairly consistent in declaring that children who are underage are never admitted early, so I have trouble buying this. Possibility two is that Hermione has had one less year of muggle- education than Harry and other muggle-raised children at Hogwarts, but because she's so extremely brilliant, McGonagall went ahead and sent her letter ahead of schedule. There's nothing in canon to support this, but there's nothing there to rule it out either. Hermione would have to have been aware of the letter and have gone to get her school books well in advance of Sept 1 in order to have "learned all our course books by heart, of course", tried out several successful spells, and to have heard that "...it's the very best school of witchcraft there is." It appears that Harry received his first letter approximately 1 week before his 11th birthday which would put it at about July 23/24. Why would Hermione get her letter so far in advance? Ebony wrote: > The fandom's most reputable news source, The Leaky Cauldron, reported > that Warner Home Video confirmed that Rowling *did* approve the > timeline. For me, that's as good as if she had written it herself. It's not as if JKR hasn't endorsed numerical inconsistencies before. She certainly approved Marcus Flint appearing in POA, even though he should have left school the year before (and let's not even get into the "Hogwarts student population" issue again). We've established that math/dates are *not* her strong suit. It's possible she hasn't thought this one through completely. Ebony continued: > And if you're "not about to take direction from a DVD", then let's > hope that paper books don't go the way of eight-tracks, eh? I feel > that this is just as much canon as some of JKR's more vague > interviews. I can't agree here, since signing off on a timeline someone else wrote isn't really in the same category as developing one yourself, or making public statements in an interview, vague or otherwise. Remember the wand order issue in GoF? The fact that she missed something as significant to the plot as that was frankly amazing. She's good but she's not infallible. Ebony wrote: > This issue might be a minor one, but then again, so are several > others that JKR clarified in GoF, the schoolbooks, and now. The care > that our author has taken to clarify even this minute detail shows > the care she puts into everything in her universe. I agree that she tries very hard to keep her details straight, but again, she does seem to have her greatest difficulties with numbers and dates. If she was trying to finish OOP, prepare for a new baby, and help with the DVD, I can easily see how something as trivial as this could fall through the cracks. Ebony: > The proceedings from the "What is canon?" panel that Barb and others > will be sitting on at Nimbus - 2003 will be especially interesting. > > So yes, I appreciate the clarification, and I thank JKR for hearing > her fans. As I said above, I don't really understand why this matters one way or another, but now that the DVD timeline has come out and been described as approved by JKR, I'm curious to hear the explanation for Hermione's birthdate. It could be that she has thought all this out in great detail as you say, in which case there has to be a reason for the inconsistency. If that's the case, I really hope that someone asks her about it in an interview, because now I really want to know. Jo Serenadust, who thinks this sounds like a bit of a Flint From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 17 15:32:27 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 08:32:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Parents' ages (was Re: Schooldays) In-Reply-To: <20030417124320.2829.qmail@web14506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030417153227.6761.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55540 --- Faith wrote: > I'm just reading CoS again and I'm up to the point > where Arthur and Lucius > start to fight, and had a thought. This has probably > been discussed before.. > But Harry, Ron and Draco all being the same age and > all, what are the odds > that Arthur, Lucius and James all went to school > together? I realize that Ron > is the second youngest, which would probably mean > that Arthur is somewhat > older than Lucius and James, but it still makes for > some interesting > thoughts. I doubt that ALL of them were in school together. For one, it's a little too convenient, and as you said, Ron was the sixth child and Harry the first, so their parents are probably not the same age. We know at the very least that Molly and Arthur pre-date MWPP&L's time by at least a few years. Molly said the Whomping Willow was planted after she left, and we know she and Arthur were in school at about the same time because they were caught out together after curfew by the caretaker, Pringle. So they have to be at least 7 years older than the MWPP crew, since the Whomping Willow was planted when Lupin *started* and they couldn't even be 7th years then. As for Lucius, we don't have any details about when HE went to school, other than it was more recently than Tom Riddle. (Draco says the last time the Chamber was opened was "before his time".) I know a lot of people put him in the same time as MWPP and make him part of Snape's gang of Slytherins, but that has just never sat well with me. I personally think he's a contemporary of Arthur, and they had a bit of a schoolboy rivalry that's carried on through the years. A man of wealth and position often waits a few years to get settled and all wild oats sown before settling down with a wife and child, rather than marrying and having a baby right out of school like the Potters did. Now, I think the Weasleys are the *exact* type to get married and start a family right out of school, so we have a good approximate date for their school leaving -- 9 months before Bill's birth. ;) Unfortunately, we don't actually have a set age for Bill. We know that Bill is older than Charlie and Charlie's last year of Quidditch was 6 years before POA (POA would've been the 7th year in a row they lost the Quidditch Cup.) I think it's most logical that he played right through his 7th year, so that puts him at approximately 24 in POA, 11 years older than Harry. (Always assuming my math is right, which is never a safe assumption to make. [g]) My *guess* for Bill's age is two years above Charlie, which is the Weasley standard. (Percy's two years older than the twins, who are two years older than Ron. Just the extra long gap between Charlie and Percy and the shorter one between Ron and Ginny.) So that puts Bill at 26, 13 years older than Harry. Which means Arthur and Molly (and IMO, Lucius) are around 13-15 years older than MWPP & co. Phew. :) Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From grace701 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 17 15:40:33 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 15:40:33 -0000 Subject: Lucius's age and class year; Lily (was Re: Who knows Tom Riddle is Voldemort?) In-Reply-To: <20030416223023.29942.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55541 Phyllis wrote: > In the Chamber (Ch. 17), Riddle tells Harry "It [Voldemort] was a > name I was already using at Hogwarts, to my most intimate friends > only, of course." One of those "intimate" friends must be Lucius > Malfoy, since he possessed the diary with Tom Riddle's name > written > in it. Andrea wrote: > But when Draco was talking to Crabbe and Goyle about the Chamber of > Secrets, he said, "It was fifty years ago, of course, so it was > before his > time." So Lucius was NOT at Hogwarts at the same time as Tom > Riddle. Cassie wrote: >I have to disagree with this a bit-mainly due to a difference in >age. Most if >not all of the DE's weren't at Hogwarts when Voldemort/Riddle was >there...they were there during Snape's time. And, though I can't >find any >canon at the moment, I suspect that Lucius is included in that. >As for Crouch JR...in "the pensieve" (GOF, ch 30 it says that he is >in his >late teens (hard back, 594). So he wasn't even born when LV was in >school. Okay I had the impression Lucius was in the same year as Snape, James, Sirius, Lupin and Pettigrew, but someone here (forgot who, sorry) told me that JKR has never said in canon that he was because it would have been mentioned that he was apart of Snape's clique which included the LeStranges and Rosier, IIRC. But I still got the impression that he was a few years older than them. At least 3 years or at most 10 years older. If he were a few years older than he probably didn't hang out with them being that they were younger and in a different year. In canon, do we ever see George, Fred and Lee Jordan hanging out with Ron, Hermione and Harry? If they do it would seem to be during breakfast, lunch and dinner. You tend to hang out more with people in your own year and only occassionally with those in other years. We don't even see Houses interacting with one another on a Trio basis (very close friends), just socializing. *If* at that point, during the "Marauders'" junior-high school years, V was recruiting, the recruitees probably didn't want to make it obvious that there were other evil doers in the school and kept the attention to themselves. (I'd like to call Snape's Clique: Voldemort's Indistinguishable Evil-doer's = VIE, new acronym =)!) I can't wait to find out when Voldemort realized that the Potters' were a threat. Was it when they were in high school? BTW, do we know that Lily was in Gryffindor? I can't remember, as always. I would love it if in OoP JKR could tell us, finally, if Lily was MWPP's age and if she hung out with them. Or was she annoying like Hermione? Obviously, James and her were "meddlesome" according to Lucius. Wonder what they found out about him? Greicy, who just realized that there are a lot of Trios running around Hogwart's: HRH, DCG, FGL (Fred, George, Lee), DMS (Dumbledore, McGonagall, Snape) and do Seamus, Dean and Neville count as a trio? From erinellii at yahoo.com Thu Apr 17 15:04:55 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 15:04:55 -0000 Subject: what about Hagrid with Crossbow? (Was Re: Hagrid in Knockturn Alley) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55542 "silly_mr_wiggles" wrote: > Is it just me or does it seem a bit odd that Hagrid, a half giant and a wizard, has a muggle weapon like a crossbow? It seemed to me that the wizarding world had made its way without muggle inventons, > espically because Mr.Weasly was so facinated with them. Anyone else > thought about this? If this has been brought up before I am quite > sorry, my computer is not wanting to work with the searching. I think they've made their way without *modern* inventions; that is, most new stuff from after the (1600's, I think it was) time when they began hiding their presence from Muggles and basically cut themselves off from Muggle society. I would have found it odd if, for instance, Hagrid had had a gun. But a crossbow I can swallow. Erin From the_fox01 at hotmail.com Thu Apr 17 15:30:48 2003 From: the_fox01 at hotmail.com (The Fox) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 11:30:48 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Schooldays Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55543 From: JessaDrow at aol.com >But Harry, Ron and Draco all being the same age and all, what are the odds >that Arthur, Lucius and James all went to school together? I realize that >Ron is the second youngest, which would probably mean that Arthur is >somewhat older than Lucius and James, but it still makes for some >interesting thoughts. Odds that Arthur was at school with James: nil. Ron is, as you point out, the second-youngest of Arthur's children. Charlie, the second-eldest, is eleven (or possibly twelve) years older than Ron, and Bill, the eldest, is at least a year older than Charlie. By my calculations, Bill is ... where did I have this scribbled down ... between thirteen and fifteen years older than Ron. (He can't be any older than this, because Ginny can remember Bill being at Hogwarts, so he must have been there when she was old enough to remember, say not younger than two, and if he left when he was eighteen, and Ron's a year older than Ginny, Ron would have been about three at the time.) Now, James and Lily were young-ish parents, probably not much older than twenty when Harry was born (though there's no hard canon on this yet, I believe). In short, *Bill* Weasley may well have been at school with James Potter (though not in the same year, as the math doesn't work out, and besides both were Head Boy), but not Arthur. Odds that Lucius was at school with James: decent. Assuming Lucius and Narcissa were married and had Draco with the same speed that James and Lily were married and had Harry, it could easily work out that Lucius and James were classmates. Odds that Lucius was at school with Arthur: better, IMO. (Obviously he can't have been at school with both of them. [g]) In the first place, the animosity between Lucius and Arthur is visible to the Muggle eye. (Granted, if Lucius feels animosity toward James, it's not like James can respond in kind. But still.) And in the second place, I'm firmly of the belief that Draco is not the Malfoys' first child. He has all the earmarks of being the youngest, and by a long way -- combine an only child with the baby of a family, take away all the good and pleasant features of both, and you're left with Draco Malfoy. Fox ... Come on, Nature Just because I don't feel weak Don't mean I feel so strong. -- the Proclaimers .............................. _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From dorigen at hotmail.com Thu Apr 17 15:52:54 2003 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 15:52:54 +0000 Subject: Trios Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55544 >Greicy, who just realized that there are a lot of Trios running >around Hogwart's: HRH, DCG, FGL (Fred, George, Lee), DMS >(Dumbledore, McGonagall, Snape) and do Seamus, Dean and Neville >count as a trio? A "trio" is not defined as "any three people who are frequently in the same place at the same time." I don't think Seamus, Dean, and Neville count as a trio. Nor do I think Dumbledore, McGonagall, and Snape count as a trio. The only time we see the three of them (as opposed to any two of them) working together as a specific team is when they attacked "Moody" in his office at the end of GoF. This, by the way, confirms my long-held belief that the most powerful wizards at Hogwarts other than Dumbledore are McGonagall and Snape, and that's why, when Dumbledore could have collected almost anyone else out of the assembled multitude to help him, he chose those two. Janet Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From grace701 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 17 15:58:06 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 15:58:06 -0000 Subject: Trios In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55545 > >Greicy, who just realized that there are a lot of Trios running > >around Hogwart's: HRH, DCG, FGL (Fred, George, Lee), DMS > >(Dumbledore, McGonagall, Snape) and do Seamus, Dean and Neville > >count as a trio? Janet wrote: > A "trio" is not defined as "any three people who are frequently in the same > place at the same time." I don't think Seamus, Dean, and Neville count as a > trio. Nor do I think Dumbledore, McGonagall, and Snape count as a trio. The > only time we see the three of them (as opposed to any two of them) working > together as a specific team is when they attacked "Moody" in his office at > the end of GoF. This, by the way, confirms my long-held belief that the > most powerful wizards at Hogwarts other than Dumbledore are McGonagall and > Snape, and that's why, when Dumbledore could have collected almost anyone > else out of the assembled multitude to help him, he chose those two. Me again: Thank you for clearing that up. I couldn't remember at all if Snape, Dumbledore and McGonagall were ever seen together in other places, but that one. And I wasn't too sure about Seamus, Dean and Neville. I still wonder who they hang out with. I always got the impression that Seamus and Dean hung out, but I don't know if I've been "movie-contaminated" or what. I'm starting to not like the fact we don't know anything about these three. I love them because they seem like such sweet kids! =D I believe that Neville will have a bigger role though. He has to because of his parents! Greicy From the_fox01 at hotmail.com Thu Apr 17 15:13:23 2003 From: the_fox01 at hotmail.com (The Fox) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 11:13:23 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What about Lupin? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55546 From: "GKJPO" > wrote: >>1) The sneakoscope goes off on the train when the trio enter Lupin's >>compartment. > >That was for Scabbers It's a fair point, but Scabbers and the sneakoscope had been in the same place for days, or at the very least for hours. Maybe Harry and Ron just didn't notice it was ringing until they were in the compartment -- is that what you're saying? Fox ........... Matthew 7:1 Luke 6:37 ... "You want to tempt the wrath of the whatever from high atop the thing?" -- West Wing ... Come on, Nature Just because I don't feel weak Don't mean I feel so strong. -- the Proclaimers .............................. _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From tmarends at yahoo.com Thu Apr 17 16:48:37 2003 From: tmarends at yahoo.com (Tim) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 16:48:37 -0000 Subject: What about Lupin? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55547 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "The Fox" wrote: > From: "GKJPO" > > wrote: > > >>1) The sneakoscope goes off on the train when the trio enter Lupin's > >>compartment. > > > >That was for Scabbers > > It's a fair point, but Scabbers and the sneakoscope had been in the same > place for days, or at the very least for hours. Maybe Harry and Ron just > didn't notice it was ringing until they were in the compartment -- is that > what you're saying? > > Fox > > Ron said it had been going off since he got it, and thought it was broken. From erinellii at yahoo.com Thu Apr 17 15:39:54 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 15:39:54 -0000 Subject: Schooldays In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55548 JessaDrow at a... wrote: This has probably been discussed before.. But Harry, Ron and Draco all being the same age and all, what are the odds that Arthur, Lucius and James all went to school together? I realize that Ron is the second youngest, which would probably mean that Arthur is somewhat older than Lucius and James, but it still makes for some interesting thoughts. Arthur couldn't possibly have gone to school with James. For one thing, we know that when he and Mrs. Weasley went to school, there were a different groundskeeper and caretaker there than there are now. And Hagrid has been groundskeeper for AT LEAST the past 30 years or so. (we know that 50 years ago, when Hagrid was expelled as a thirteen-year-old, he was an apprentice groundskeeper for a while. We don't know how long this apprenticeship lasted) We know for sure that Hagrid was groundskeeper when James Potter went to school. Lucius is harder to pin down. He could have gone to school with Arthur, but most people think of him as a little younger than that. We know he's younger than Voldemort, but most likely older than James potter, because Snape was in school with Potter, and Sirius does not name Lucius in his list of people that Snape hung around with. So me, I believe they all went to school separately. Erin Erin From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Thu Apr 17 17:13:06 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 18:13:06 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What about Lupin? References: Message-ID: <3E9EE0A2.000001.90123@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 55549 The Fox wrote > > >>1) The sneakoscope goes off on the train when the trio enter Lupin's > >>compartment. > > > > wrote: > >That was for Scabbers > Now me - Firstly I hope I've attributed the right comments to the right people but I m not sure. I don't have my books to hand right now but I can't think of any reason why it would go off at that specific moment rather than going off continuously if it referred to Scabbers. I think it's some kind of double bluff - at first we assume it's for Lupin because he's the new element (but we're not sure because it's been going off before - as we know now probably for Scabbers) then we discover Scabbers is Peter and we assume it must refer to Scabbers. However it could well be that it was actually going off for Lupin - I think it probably was in this case. This way we're still not a hundred percent certain about who is on harry's side and who isn't. But, and this is the important point, it doesn't mean Lupin is 'Ever So Evil . The Sneakoscope (as far as I remember) reacts to deception - it would be as likely to react to a prank by the Twins as to Fake!Moody (for example. It wouldn't mean the Twins were evil - just that they wee perpetrating a deception of some kind. So it reacts to Lupin, so what? We all know he's perpetrating a deception - he's hiding his lycanthropy. Could he be evil though? Probably. However as I'm sure has been noted before - JKR has incorporated this whole motif of blind prejudice and how wrong it is, including, but probably not limited to, wizarding prejudices against muggles, muggleborns, giants, werewolves .... It would surely undermine her effort to show how wrong these prejudices are to make the only werewolf we've met actually turn out to be evil. Since she's also shown us one heck of a lot of anti-Slytherin prejudice by the Gryffindors this is alos a large part of my firm belief that Snape might be an unpleasant person but he's also one of the good guys. I will be sorely disappointed if all the Slytherins turn out to be evil and all the Gryffindors are heroes. K From patricia at obscure.org Thu Apr 17 17:18:06 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 13:18:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] More Questions (was Re: The timeline on the DVD *confirms* canon). In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55550 On Thu, 17 Apr 2003, serenadust wrote: > First, Hermione (because of her extreme precocity) is an extremely > rare exception to the UK practice of not admitting children to > school unless they are of age on Sept. 1. If she has always been > the youngest in her class, then I suppose it would be consistent for > Hogwarts to admit her at the age of ten because she would have > received the same number of years of schooling as her muggle- > born/educated peers. However, the UK members of the list have been > fairly consistent in declaring that children who are underage are > never admitted early, so I have trouble buying this. It may also be possible that Hermione started her education somewhere else where admission standards are different, later continuing her education in England and being placed in her grade because of her prior experience rather than her age. However, we haven't seen anything to indicate Hermione has ever lived abroad for an extended period of time, so I don't give this possibility much credence. > Possibility two is that Hermione has had one less year of muggle- > education than Harry and other muggle-raised children at Hogwarts, > but because she's so extremely brilliant, McGonagall went ahead and > sent her letter ahead of schedule. There's nothing in canon to > support this, but there's nothing there to rule it out either. I lean more towards the second explanation, although I don't think McGonagall would have had to make an exception for Hermione because of her unusual billiance. There is nothing in canon to suggest that Hogwarts cares at all about the length or quality of Muggle education prior to attending Hogwarts. Students are assumed to know how to read and write and do simple math when they enroll, but beyond that Muggle education seems pretty much irrelevant. So I suspect the magic quill gives McGonagall a list of students who are the right age and she sends off their welcome letters without ever giving a thought as to whether the muggle-borns have completed their muggle primary education or not. The decision as to whether the student skips his or her last year of primary school would be left up to the parents, not the folks at Hogwarts. There may very well be other muggle-born students who missed their last year of primary school as well. > Hermione would have to have been aware of the letter and have gone > to get her school books well in advance of Sept 1 in order to > have "learned all our course books by heart, of course", tried out > several successful spells, and to have heard that "...it's the very > best school of witchcraft there is." > It appears that Harry received his first letter approximately 1 week > before his 11th birthday which would put it at about July 23/24. > Why would Hermione get her letter so far in advance? I don't think she necessarily did get her letter much earlier than Harry. Knowing Hermione, she probably rushed to Diagon Alley as soon as possible after getting the letter and bought her books straight away. We know she's a voracious reader and highly motivated to learn magic, so I don't doubt she was able to plow through all her textbooks in the six weeks or so before she boarded the train. In fact, I doubt she did much other than read and practice spells during that time. She could easily have learned more than Harry simply because she was more eager to learn and not hindered by a hostile family. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From the_fox01 at hotmail.com Thu Apr 17 17:46:46 2003 From: the_fox01 at hotmail.com (The Fox) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 13:46:46 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What about Lupin? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55551 From: "Kathryn Cawte" >The Fox wrote > >> >>>>1) The sneakoscope goes off on the train when the trio enter Lupin's >>>>compartment. >>> > >>> wrote: >>>That was for Scabbers >> > >Now me - > >Firstly I hope I've attributed the right comments to the right people but >I'm not sure. Not quite, but that's okay. :-) >I don't have my books to hand right now but I can't think of any reason why >it would go off at that specific moment rather than going off continuously >if it referred to Scabbers. > >I think it's some kind of double bluff - at first we assume it's for Lupin >because he's the new element (but we're not sure because it's been going >off before - as we know now probably for Scabbers) then we discover >Scabbers is Peter and we assume it must refer to Scabbers. However it could >well be that it was actually going off for Lupin - I think it probably was >in this case. This way we're still not a hundred percent certain about who >is on harry's side and who isn't. We don't know, come to that, that it hasn't been going off more or less whenever Scabbers is around. It lit up at dinner the night Ron bought it, and Bill said it was rubbish, but he didn't realize that Fred and George had put beetles in his soup -- and none of them realized that Scabbers was no ordinary rat. It went haywire when Ron was tying it to Errol's leg to send to Harry, because Ron wasn't supposed to be using Errol -- and Scabbers was no ordinary rat. It hushed up while Harry was by himself with it, but it was in his trunk, so when Harry and Ron (and Scabbers) were back together again, it started whistling; it's entirely possible that it's been going off all morning, and they only hear it when they get to the compartment where Lupin is asleep, at which point they hush up and speak in whispers. >But, and this is the important point, it doesn't mean Lupin is 'Ever So >Evil'. The Sneakoscope (as far as I remember) reacts to deception - it >would be as likely to react to a prank by the Twins as to Fake!Moody (for >example). It wouldn't mean the Twins were evil - just that they wee >perpetrating a deception of some kind. So it reacts to Lupin, so what? We >all know he's perpetrating a deception - he's hiding his lycanthropy. It reacts to untrustworthiness, so you're more or less right. Lupin is lying, there's no doubt about that -- but does that make him untrustworthy in general? That's the real question, isn't it. Most of the parents who'd object to his being there (which objection prompts his resignation once Snape outs him, and isn't *that* a big allegorical neon sign) would do so for the simple fact that he's a werewolf; but I bet there are others, and I might actually number Snape among these, who are less concerned that he's a werewolf than they are that he *lied* about it, or at least didn't tell the truth, so they didn't have the chance to take appropriate precautions. Cf. Greg Louganis hitting his head on the diving board. >Could he be evil though? Probably. He *could* be, but there's nothing but circumstantial evidence (and weak evidence at that) to support that conclusion. Fox ........... Matthew 7:1 Luke 6:37 ... "You want to tempt the wrath of the whatever from high atop the thing?" -- West Wing ... Come on, Nature Just because I don't feel weak Don't mean I feel so strong. -- the Proclaimers .............................. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Thu Apr 17 18:07:21 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 11:07:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Snape being a DE In-Reply-To: <20030417044616.72385.qmail@web14501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030417180721.5450.qmail@web40512.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55552 --- danielle dassero wrote: > Not having been in this group for long. Don't know > if > anyone has thought this. But seeing how Snape's > loyalty is being questioned. We all know that Snape > became DD's spy on Lord Voldie. We all think that he > was recruited after becomming a DE. > > How about this for thought, Snape only became a DE > becuase he was DD' spy > from day 1. Maybe DD knowing that Voldie was > getting > up in power, while Snape was at school, DD became a > mentor so that DD could use Snape as his spy. > > Snape never was a true DE who switched sides. He was > always > on DD side from the start. He became a DE on DD's > orders and then convinced Lord Voldie that he would > make a good spy for Lord Voldie, but in all reality > he > was a spy for DD. Does that make sense to anyone > other > than me???`` Me: Well, yeah, it makes sense, but it doesn't agree with me at all. It's not at all satisfying, IMO. I infinitely prefer RealDE!Snape, Torturing!Snape, MuggleMurdering!Snape. Moreover, Snape's personality and what we know of his history suggests that he did indeed become a DE, and converted later, after something happened that made him realize that it wasn't at all what he wanted, or what he thought it would be. Probably the animosity between him and James's gang, and the Prank weren't the most insignificant reasons for becoming a DE. Snape also strikes me as the type of person who was unpopular at school, whose talents weren't as widely recognized as he would have liked. It must have been very flattering to him when he was approached and recruited. Well, that's all I can write off the top of my head, anyway. There definitely are long, detailed, and thought-through posts about this in the archive, but I can't be bothered to go look for them right now. Maria __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Thu Apr 17 18:13:40 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 14:13:40 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What is Canon? References: Message-ID: <000801c3050d$13564340$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55553 Barb wrote: > The statement about Harry and Hermione being platonic friends, for > instance, could refer to the time of GoF, when that seems to be a > perfectly adequate way to describe their relationship. This doesn't > mean it will always be true. Agreed. > After GoF came out, for instance, she talked about having to rewrite > large parts of it because she needed a conduit for information > between Hogwarts and the rest of the wizarding world, and finally > decided to use Rita Skeeter for that, although she'd initially had a > Weasley cousin in mind. If she'd said ahead of time that we were > going to see a Weasley cousin in GoF and then we discovered that we > got Rita instead, I'd just think she'd changed her mind and decided > that Rita worked better. Also agreed. We would all be missing out if JKR was not allowed to change her mind. > That's one reason I'm a bit reluctant to call her interviews canon, > except as they explain confusing bits from the four (soon to be > five!) extant books. I think of the interviews as being more > like 'guidance,' especially for my fanfiction writing. But until it > appears between the pages of an actual Harry Potter book, in that > she has the right to change her mind about what she says--indeed, > has an obligation, if the story would be better written a different > way--I'd rather not treat tidbits gleaned from her interviews as > carved in stone. They're helpful, certainly, but IMO, not canon. I agree that AT THIS TIME, her interviews/comments are not canon. But i believe that they SHOULD be considered canon once the series is complete - as long as what she said does not contradict the completed series. > I prefer to ignore a lot of the merchandizing, so I don't have other > things on this list. Should I consider the depiction of Harry on my > daughter's cherry liquid hand soap (this is really sitting in my > bathroom!) to be canon? Well there's nothing canonical about a picture unless, for instance, it depicted Harry's scar as being on his cheek instead of his forehead. In that case, we would most certainly choose the forehead as being the correct placement "in canon." But pretend that the picture depicted Harry reading the book "Pride and Prejudice" and had a caption underneath it stating "Harry, reading his favorite book." If nowhere in the completed series are we told what Harry's favorite book is, i would take this caption as being "canonical fact" as there is no reason not to! > Should I regard the (terrible) Quidditch > board game as canon? If there are facts found there that are not found (or contradicted) in the completed series, then YES! I don't know about you, but i want to learn as much about the characters and the Potterverse as i possibly can...and if some of that knowledge comes from a card in a game, then so be it! > These things don't cut it, in my book. At this point in time, they don't cut it in my book either. BUT once the series is complete, there's no reason to discount other licensed sources (not just any old body) as canon as long as they do not contradict the completed series. > Except that her name would probably be "Sherbet Lemon" in the > British version. God, that would be an awful name. ;) LOL :) > To get back to the difference between the author saying things about > the published works vs. the unpublished works, she said at one point > that James' Quidditch position was a Chaser. Subsequently, in the > first film, she either a) allowed Kloves to make him a Seeker; or b) > didn't have much of a choice, not having discovered it until > changing it would have inconvenienced a huge number of people; or c) > didn't care one way or the other and originally gave the > answer "Chaser" to get someone to leave her alone and ask her > something sensible. So are you saying that if it is never 'written' in the book series which position James played, that you will throw out JKR's answer of Chaser as non-canon? There would be no sense in that! > If she ever decides that Hermione's birthday is NOT September 19th > and that Ron's is NOT March 1, by putting the actual dates in a > future book, I don't think people should jump all over her for > changing her mind. Oh i absolutely agree! If she says one thing now and then later puts something different in the book, that is her perogative and nobody should fault her for that. But the things that she does say now that, for whatever reason, don't show up in the books at all, should be considered canon (in the future) in my opinion. Because, again, there is no good reason to discount them. ~Katy~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 17 18:23:59 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 18:23:59 -0000 Subject: Lucius's age and class year; Lily (was Re: Who knows Tom Riddle is Voldemort?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55554 I originally wrote a post, in response to Greicy's question, which attempted to identify all individuals who might know that Voldemort was once called Tom Riddle. To which Andrea responded: > But when Draco was talking to Crabbe and Goyle about the Chamber of > Secrets, he said, "It was fifty years ago, of course, so it was > before his time." So Lucius was NOT at Hogwarts at the same time > as Tom Riddle. and Cassie commented: > Most if not all of the DE's weren't at Hogwarts when > Voldemort/Riddle was there...they were there during Snape's time. > And, though I can't find any canon at the moment, I suspect that > Lucius is included in that. As for Crouch JR...in "the pensieve" > (GOF, ch 30 it says that he is in his late teens (hard back, 594). > So he wasn't even born when LV was in school. Now me: I'd just like to clarify that in my original post (which, admittedly, wasn't as clear as it could have been), I wasn't trying to imply that the DEs that I named as knowing that Voldemort was once called Tom Riddle were all at Hogwarts with Voldemort. I was just trying to come up with a comprehensive list, as well as to identify any canon statements that provide clues to solving this question. IIRC, there's no canon to support that most of the DEs were at Hogwarts with Snape - I think we see a wide range of ages among the DEs (from the elderly MacNair to the relatively young Barty Crouch Jr.), and I'm not sure they were all at Hogwarts in the first place (take Karkaroff, for example - we don't know for sure where he went to school, but would he be headmaster of Durmstrang if he didn't go to school there originally?). Plus, I would think Durmstrang would be a more fertile ground for Voldie's recruiting efforts given its focus on dark magic. I don't think Lucius was at Hogwarts with Snape - he seems older than Snape, and there's never any mention of Lucius being at Hogwarts at the same time James, Lily, Peter, Remus and Sirius were there (which was the same time that Snape was there). Greicy asked: > Do we know that Lily was in Gryffindor? Me again: We do know that Lily was in Gryffindor - October 2000 Scholastic interview: Q: "Which house was Lily Potter in, and what is her maiden name?" A: "Her maiden name was Evans, and she was in Gryffindor (naturally)." (see: http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript2.htm) Greicy again: > I would love it if in OoP JKR could tell us, finally, if Lily was > MWPP's age and if she hung out with them. Me again: JKR tells us this in Ch. 4 of PS, when Petunia blurts out: "Then she [Lily] met that Potter at school..." Greicy again: > I can't wait to find out when Voldemort realized that the Potters' > were a threat. Was it when they were in high school? Me again: I doubt whether Voldemort would have waiting long to get rid of the Potters once he found out they were a threat. As Fudge says in the Three Broomsticks: "Not many people are aware that the Potters knew You-Know-Who was after them. Dumbledore, who was of course working tirelessly against You-Know-Who, had a number of useful spies. One of them tipped him off, and he alerted James and Lily at once. He advised them to go into hiding" (Ch. 10, PoA). From this, I conclude that the Fidelius Charm was placed on James, Lily and Harry as soon as the "useful spy" let them know that Voldemort was after them, which I would assume wasn't long after Voldemort realized they were a threat. ~Phyllis From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 17 18:44:14 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 11:44:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What about Lupin? In-Reply-To: <3E9EE0A2.000001.90123@monica> Message-ID: <20030417184414.67895.qmail@web21008.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55555 Kathryn wrote: However as I'm sure has been noted before - JKR has incorporated this whole motif of blind prejudice and how wrong it is, including, but probably not limited to, wizarding prejudices against muggles, muggleborns, giants, werewolves .... It would surely undermine her effort to show how wrong these prejudices are to make the only werewolf we've met actually turn out to be evil. Since she's also shown us one heck of a lot of anti-Slytherin prejudice by the Gryffindors this is alos a large part of my firm belief that Snape might be an unpleasant person but he's also one of the good guys. I will be sorely disappointed if all the Slytherins turn out to be evil and all the Gryffindors are heroes. Me: I agree with you concerning both Lupin and Snape. I also would like to point out that Lupin was one the "old crowd" that fought Voldemart and is highly trusted by Dumbledore. There is no way he can be anything but one of the "good" guys. I don't know how "good" I would say Snape is, but I think he'll do the right thing too. The only bothersome thing about Lupin, and it IS a logical inconsistancy in the PoA storyline was him not telling Professor Dumbledore about Sirius being an Animagus and probably being able to use that and the secret enterance created specficially for Lupin to enter Hogswarts. Now I know his reasons for not telling but they are hardly convincing. This should have been such a compelling danger he would have confided in Dumbledore at least the first time Sirius entered the school and attacked the Fat Lady. I mean, who would he have been protecting by not telling? Not himself as he wasn't one of the animagus's and was only guilty by association. Not James Potter. He is dead. Not Peter Pettigrew. He thought Peter was dead. Not Sirius Black as Lupin thought he was the traitor who betrayed the Potters and was now trying to kill Harry. He had no reason not to tell Dumbledore about that. Again, I don't think we can construct anything evil about Lupin concerning this fact. I think it was basically just a logic error in the storyline. Huggs Becky hitting her head against the door in punishment for suggesting anything "bad" about JKR --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From selene at earthlink.net Thu Apr 17 18:30:27 2003 From: selene at earthlink.net (Susan Fox-Davis) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 11:30:27 -0700 Subject: The timeline on the DVD *confirms* canon. Message-ID: <3E9EF2C3.2082B3D8@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 55556 Ebony writes: <> It should also be noted that privately run schools are not necessarily subject to the same restrictions. I was educated in the US not the UK but I entered formal education at a private school, Barnard School For Girls, having likewise missed the formal state-designated birthdate deadline. However, I was judged and found ready for school so off I went, which was a good thing intellectually but maybe not emotionally, being smaller and younger than my classmates put me at a social disadvantage all my school days. Hermione was obviously mentally, physically and emotionally ready to enter Hogwarts, so Dumbledore [who has total control over Hogwarts admissions] could perfectly well decide to let her in in Harry's class rather than wait a year. Can't you just see it now, Dumbledore doing an Obi-Wan Kenobi treatment on the inspector from the Ministry of Education? "You don't need to see our student records... these are not the children you're looking for..." Alternately, the theory that Hogwarts' cutoff date is 31 October appeals to me on a totally witchly basis. Susan Fox-Davis selene at earthlink.net From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Thu Apr 17 18:40:36 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 14:40:36 -0400 Subject: PS/SS Title Change (was: What is Canon?) References: <010901c30456$dc6b1650$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> <3E9DD285.000001.60897@monica> Message-ID: <003f01c30510$d667d350$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55557 K wrote: > That's a fairly accurate definition of a philosopher, someone who wanders > around wondering whether we truly exist or jumping ut of their bath and > running through the streets shouting Eureka, but she's not talking about a > philosopher she's talking about the 'Philosopher's Stone' which is a > specific artefact which has been sought for centuries and in the Potterverse > actually exists. There is no such thing as the Sorcerer's Stone or the > Wizard's Stone (well technically there's no such thing as the Philosopher's > Stone since it was never discovered in real life but there's no mythical > Sorcerer or Wizard's stone either) I do see your point. But i'm guessing that this myth is one that originated in Britain? Because I've never heard of it. The Holy Grail is something known world wide as far as i can tell. So if the Philosopher's Stone is an area-specific myth, I can understand why they changed it. But knowing now where the name originated, I do wish they had left the title alone. ~Katy~ Live in the southeast USA? Join the new HP4GU-Southeast-US regional group! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP4GU-Southeast-US/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ratchick22 at hotmail.com Thu Apr 17 19:31:39 2003 From: ratchick22 at hotmail.com (herm - own - ninny) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 19:31:39 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lucius' age (was Re: Who knows Tom Riddle is Voldemort?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55558 >From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com >I have to disagree with this a bit-mainly due to a difference in age. >Most >if not all of the DE's weren't at Hogwarts when Voldemort/Riddle >was >there...they were there during Snape's time. And, though I can't >find any >canon at the moment, I suspect that Lucius is included in >that. It strikes me as odd that Lucius' age is commonly interpreted as either belonging to the Tom Riddle era or the Marauder's. Draco's quote is CoS clearly disproves the first suggestion, and I believe he's too old to belong to the Marauder years because: 1)Draco is the same age as Harry, yet we know that Lily and James were uncommonly young when they had Harry, which I doubt is the case with Lucius and Narcissa. 2)Neither Sirius nor Lupin really talk about Lucius (that I can remember). I would think that if he was in their year they would likely remember him vividly, as Lucius has the sort of personality that one does not forget. For example, I think Lupin would make a sympathetic comment to Harry about Draco and how Lucius was just as nasty at that age, something like that. If Lucius does in fact belong to an "era" at Hogwarts that coincides with any of the characters, I'd say it's probably Molly and Arthur Weasley's era. I have always assumed that Lucius was around the same age as Arthur because of their deep rooted animosity towards each other. Of course, they didn't have to attend school together to start hating each other, that could have happened at any time. It's just that they're obviously long-running enemies that each know (or have opinions about) the other's social situation, personality, etc, the kind of knowledge that comes from school years spent bickering. On the other hand, The Weasley's first son Charlie is much older than Draco, and if we go by the Lexicon's timeline, even seems pretty close to the Marauder's era. This would mean that Molly and Arthur are fairly old, so perhaps Lucius is not their age afterall. Or perhaps he simply waited awhile before getting married, or having children. Maybe he did go to school with the Weasleys, but was a few years behind them. I don't know, does anyone else think this is plausible, or is it disproven in canon and I'm just making a fool of myself here :) dina _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From patricia at obscure.org Thu Apr 17 20:11:33 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 16:11:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] PS/SS Title Change (was: What is Canon?) In-Reply-To: <003f01c30510$d667d350$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55559 On Thu, 17 Apr 2003, Katy Cartee wrote: > K wrote: > > > That's a fairly accurate definition of a philosopher, someone who wanders > > around wondering whether we truly exist or jumping ut of their bath and > > running through the streets shouting Eureka, but she's not talking about a > > philosopher she's talking about the 'Philosopher's Stone' which is a > > specific artefact which has been sought for centuries and in the Potterverse > > actually exists. There is no such thing as the Sorcerer's Stone or the > > Wizard's Stone (well technically there's no such thing as the Philosopher's > > Stone since it was never discovered in real life but there's no mythical > > Sorcerer or Wizard's stone either) > > I do see your point. But i'm guessing that this myth is one that > originated in Britain? Because I've never heard of it. The Holy Grail is > something known world wide as far as i can tell. So if the Philosopher's > Stone is an area-specific myth, I can understand why they changed it. > But knowing now where the name originated, I do wish they had left the > title alone. The Philosopher's Stone is not a particularly British idea. I don't know who originally came up with the idea or where they lived, but the concept of the stone has been widely known throughout Europe for hundreds of years. For an ancient, esoteric concept, it's pretty well known in the US too, thanks to our considerable European heritage. I'm an American, and I knew about the philosopher's stone long before the first Harry Potter book came out. There are many other Americans who also know about it apart from the HP books. And I'm sure there are many Brits who had *not* heard about the philosopher's stone before Harry Potter. It's well established in mythology, but it's not something people talk about over dinner. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Apr 17 20:17:24 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 20:17:24 -0000 Subject: Schooldays In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55560 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, JessaDrow at a... wrote: > Greetings, > > ,,,edited... > But Harry, Ron and Draco all being the same age and all, what are > the odds that Arthur, Lucius and James all went to school together? > ...edited... > > ~Faith~ bboy_mn: What are the odds? Zero, in my book. Arthur and Molly - close in age to Prof. McGonagall (about 70), older than Hagrid, probably older than Voldemort ---Molly makes no mention of Hagrid when she reminisces about school. Even if Harid was just a boy helping Oog the Gamekeeper, she still would have noticed and remembered him. Even at age +13, Hagrid was still a giant and would have been pretty hard to miss. So I say the Weasleys are older than Voldemort which puts them closer in age to McGonagall. Lucius Malfoy - Older than James/Remus/Sirus, younger than Hagrid, much younger that Mr./Mrs. Weasley. --- The fact that Lucius had Tom Riddle's Diary does nothing to help us determine his age. There was a +50 year span of time within which there was a +10 year span of time during which Voldemort and Lucius had an established relationship, and Lucius could have laid his hands on the diary at any point in that time span. Voldemort - a few years older than Hagrid. In OoP, Hagrid is about 66 and that would make Voldemort about 69 or 70. Just a thought. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Apr 17 20:31:46 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 20:31:46 -0000 Subject: Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55561 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: > Faith asked: > > > Where in the books did it mention the name of the home the Potters > > lived in? > > Now me: > > In Ch. 1 of PS, Professor McGonagall says to Dumbledore: "What > they're *saying*..is that last night Voldemort turned up in Godric's > Hollow. He went to find the Potters." > > Katie wrote: > > > I believe that Godric's Hollow ... is just the location where > > the Potters were *staying* whilst hoping to escape and hide from > > Voldemort, thinking they were safe. > > Me again: > > ... whether Godric's Hollow is the name of the Potter's house or ... > the town/village/hamlet .... I ... think it's the name of the > town/village/hamlet, ... the term "Hollow," ... suggests a general > location rather than a specific house. ...edited... > > I don't think this was just a temporary hide-out, however. > > ...edited.. > > ~Phyllis bboy_mn: The word 'hollow' means a small valley. I can't see anyone naming their house after a geographic feature as in 'Godric's Valley'. The only way I could see this happening is if this was a very large estate including several hundred acres of land. In that case, the estate could be named 'Mount Godric' or 'Godric's Valley' or something similar. Although, in that case the house, which would likely be mansion, would still have a name of it's own. The exeption would be if it were named 'Godric's Manor', that could then refer to both the house and the estate, separately and/or together, but it's not. I think the most obvious choice is that the name refers to the village. As far as Hide Out vs Home, someone else pointed out that Sirius refers to it as Potter's home or at least, Potter's house. Just a thought. bboy_mn From Lynx412 at aol.com Thu Apr 17 20:45:55 2003 From: Lynx412 at aol.com (Lynx412 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 16:45:55 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] PS/SS Title Change (was: What is Canon?) Message-ID: <1a3.136542c5.2bd06c83@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55562 In a message dated 4/17/03 3:33:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rainbow at rainbowbrite.net writes: > I do see your point. But i'm guessing that this myth is one that originated > in Britain? Because I've never heard of it. The Holy Grail is something > known world wide as far as i can tell. So if the Philosopher's Stone is an > area-specific myth, I can understand why they changed it. But knowing now > where the name originated, I do wish they had left the title alone. No, it's not British. I first ran across it in my early science classes, during discussions of Alchemy and how it was the basis of modern Chemistry. Maybe it's been trimmed from the modern science curriculum, more's the pity. Cheryl the Lynx [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 17 20:55:13 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 13:55:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lucius' age (was Re: Who knows Tom Riddle is Voldemort?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030417205513.88948.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55563 --- dina wrote: > On the other hand, The Weasley's first son Charlie is much older than > Draco, > and if we go by the Lexicon's timeline, even seems pretty close to the > Marauder's era. This would mean that Molly and Arthur are fairly old, so > perhaps Lucius is not their age afterall. Or perhaps he simply waited > awhile > before getting married, or having children. Maybe he did go to school > with > the Weasleys, but was a few years behind them. You mean their first son Bill, right? :) As I mentioned in an earlier post, it's not uncommon for a wealthy and/or "high class" man to wait for quite some time before marrying and having children. He spends his time sowing his wild oats and then getting his life and business established before finally marrying to carry on the family name. This is the type of man I see Lucius as, with Narcissa as a younger trophy wife finally married in order to bear the precious heir. Or Lucius was really busy being a Death Eater, and only married a bit later when Voldemort told him it was time to ensure the second generation of his followers. ;) Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From ratchick22 at hotmail.com Thu Apr 17 19:46:12 2003 From: ratchick22 at hotmail.com (herm - own - ninny) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 19:46:12 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily & Petunia Evans (& Who's more magical?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55564 Marci asked: >So, does this mean Harry (with two magical parents) is more powerful than >Voldemort (with one magical parent)? I think JKR has made it clear that a wizard's/witch's magical ability does not depend on their lineage. Hermione has no magical parents and she's the best in the year. Harry, a halfblood, is powerful enough to fight off the Imperius curse while Ron, a pureblood, (and the rest of his class) is not. dina _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Thu Apr 17 20:21:45 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 16:21:45 -0400 Subject: Animagi - Magical Creatures? References: Message-ID: <009101c3051e$f7e40720$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55565 Do you think animagi can turn into magical creatures? So far, we've only seen them turn into "normal" animals such as cats, dogs and ladybugs. Do you think some can change into Nifflers, Hypogriffs or Dragons? I know i would sure love to be able to turn into a dragon! ;) ~Katy~ Live in the southeast USA? Join the new HP4GU-Southeast-US regional group! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP4GU-Southeast-US/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From the_fox01 at hotmail.com Thu Apr 17 20:30:19 2003 From: the_fox01 at hotmail.com (The Fox) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 16:30:19 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Schooldays Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55566 From: "Steve" >someone else said: >>...edited... >>But Harry, Ron and Draco all being the same age and all, what are the odds >>that Arthur, Lucius and James all went to school together? >>...edited... > >bboy_mn: > >What are the odds? Zero, in my book. > >Arthur and Molly - close in age to Prof. McGonagall (about 70), older than >Hagrid, probably older than Voldemort I agree with you that Arthur and James couldn't have gone to school together. But, dude -- you like the odds that a 70-year-old Molly Weasley has a ten-year-old child? :-) Fox ... Come on, Nature Just because I don't feel weak Don't mean I feel so strong. -- the Proclaimers .............................. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From drednort at alphalink.com.au Thu Apr 17 20:55:13 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 06:55:13 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] More Questions (was Re: The timeline on the DVD *confirms* canon). In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3E9FA151.471.26639A3@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 55567 On 17 Apr 2003 at 14:53, serenadust wrote: > First, Hermione (because of her extreme precocity) is an extremely > rare exception to the UK practice of not admitting children to > school unless they are of age on Sept. 1. If she has always been > the youngest in her class, then I suppose it would be consistent for > Hogwarts to admit her at the age of ten because she would have > received the same number of years of schooling as her muggle- > born/educated peers. However, the UK members of the list have been > fairly consistent in declaring that children who are underage are > never admitted early, so I have trouble buying this. I work with gifted children, and am on about a dozen different discussion lists based around the world for these kids, including one fairly British-specific list. I know personally of 7 kids in Britain who were admitted to school early, and I know 3 adults who would have been within a couple of years of Hermiones age who were admitted early in the 1980s. It may be very rare - but it happens. I doubt it gets much publicity, because generally speaking the authorities (LEAs?) are very concerned about it creating precedents, but I don't think the possibility can be ruled out. If I didn't have a week off from uni I might even be able to find journal articles about this - I'm reasonably sure I've seen one in one of the gifted specific magazines, but I read a lot of those. I might look when I get back to uni. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "Almighty Ruler of the all; Whose power extends to great and small; Who guides the stars with steadfast law; Whose least creation fills with awe; Oh grant thy mercy and thy grace; To those who venture into space." From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Apr 17 21:21:17 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 21:21:17 -0000 Subject: PS/SS Title Change (was: What is Canon?) In-Reply-To: <003f01c30510$d667d350$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55568 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Katy Cartee" wrote: > K wrote: > > > .... she's ... talking about ... the 'Philosopher's Stone' which > > is a specific artefact which has been sought for centuries and in > > the Potterverse actually exists. ...edited... Stone since it was > > never discovered in real life but there's no mythical Sorcerer or > > Wizard's stone either) > > .... But i'm guessing that this myth is one that originated in Britain? Because I've never heard of it. So if the Philosopher's Stone is an area-specific myth, I can understand why they changed it. But knowing now where the name originated, I do wish they had left the title alone. > > ~Katy~ bboy_mn: The ancient SCIENCE of Alchemy is known all over the world. The primary texts existing today on this subject predate the 16th century, although the bulk come from 16th & 17th century Europe with text originating in every European language. While the bulk of the existing texts originate in Europe, the European version of Alchemy comes for the Hebrew/Kabbala Alchemy. Alchemy was also practiced in India, China, and in the Islamic world. Original text exist from all those cultures. Alchemy was not just myth and fairytales, it was the science of the day. It is the science that predates modern chemistry, and carries over into religion, philosophy, and medicine. The text I refer to were the scholarly texts of their day. Alchemy was actually studied and practice my many many people. Because Alchemy itself was real, historical references to the Philosopher's Stone fall into the catagory of legend rather than myth. It is widely believed amoung people who believe in Alchemy, that Nicholas Flamel truly did create a Philosopher's Stone, and there are claims by several individuals that they met and talked with Mr. Flamel, long after he aledgedly died. For the record, Mr. Flamel lived in France, and you can go there and visit his house, it's been converted into an inn. People who have been there say it's a really creepy place. http://www.alchemywebsite.com/index.html As a side note, I remember watching the 'Robinhood' TV series that orginated in the US too many years ago to recall, and they did an episode on alchemy where Robinhood needed a special elixer that would allow him to walk on fire. Just thought I would throw that in. bboy_mn From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Thu Apr 17 18:52:49 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 14:52:49 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Harry gay? References: Message-ID: <005201c30512$8b8c3e00$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55569 Davidndc said: > I've been reading a lot of posts that question Harry's sexual > orientation. Also Draco's and whether any of the 'Harry Potter' > characters are gay. I agree with what Travis (at least i'm pretty sure it was Travie) said in re: to hoping one of the "good guys" does turn out to be gay. I would be all for it! But JKR has already said that she is not trying to teach any moral lessons through these books, so i have a feeling that she'll stay away from that, even though she would have the power to teach a lot by doing so. > I would like to make a comment about the link on the home page for > first time posters, regarding the rules of this group. They are > copious. I don't think that I've ever seen so many rules for > something so informal as this group. And you've probably never been on such an active list of more than 6500 people! I know i haven't. The rules are neccessary. I would HATE to see what would happen if all of the restrctions were suddenly AK'd by Voldemort! The rules are what keep this list the best Harry Potter list in existence :) > This seems to be a group > that originated in England, and is therefore governed by the rules of > the Queens English, ie, punctuation. English is very different in > countries such as America, Canada and Australia, etc., and has > different rules for grammer, spelling and punctuation. If you were > serious about being certain to use proper spelling and grammar, then > please remember that there several versions of proper English. I have no idea where the list originated as i am not a mod and haven't been around that long myself. But i DO know that the mods are most certainly not so anal to reject a post because a comma was, in, the, wrong, place. So sit back and enjoy the ride :) ~Katy~ Live in the southeast USA? Join the new HP4GU-Southeast-US regional group! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP4GU-Southeast-US/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Apr 17 21:37:39 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 21:37:39 -0000 Subject: Schooldays In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55570 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "The Fox" wrote: > From: "Steve" > > >someone else said: > >>...edited... > >>... what are the odds that Arthur, Lucius and James all went to > > >school together? > >>...edited... > > > >bboy_mn: > > > >What are the odds? Zero, in my book. > > > >Arthur and Molly - close in age to Prof. McGonagall (about 70), > > older than >Hagrid, probably older than Voldemort > > I agree with you that Arthur and James couldn't have gone to school > together. But, dude -- you like the odds that a 70-year-old Molly > Weasley has a ten-year-old child? :-) > > Fox bboy_mn: Remember that Wizards live about twice as long as Muggles, so in Muggle years (relative to a muggle lifespan) Molly is between 35 and 40 years old. So yes, I believe she could easily have a 10 year old kid. Logically, if they can live twice as long, the child bearing years are also twices as long. At age 70, Arthur and Molly are on the low end of middle age. Just a thought. bboy_mn From siriuskase at earthlink.net Thu Apr 17 22:51:37 2003 From: siriuskase at earthlink.net (siriuskase) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 22:51:37 -0000 Subject: Author mistake, Maybe?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55571 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shanna" wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: graniteworks at s... > > Did you ever notice that in HP&SS(#1) at the welcoming feast in the > beginning when Harry and Ron first meet Nearly Headless Nick, the > Gryffindor ghost, Nick states that he hasn't eaten anything in almost > 400 years but in HP&CS(#2) Nearly Headless Nick has his 500th death > day party? He seemed to have jumped from 400 years dead to 500 years > dead in one year. Do you think that that is just a mistype or what??? > > > Hi. > I actually noticed that too! I would guess it's an author error. As far as I know, ghosts can't ever eat after they die, so that's the only plausible explanation I can think of at the moment. > > Shanna My best guess? ghosts, Nick in particular, lose track of time rather easily, it's easier to remember an aniversary, than to come up with an accurate number in response to a kid's impromptu question. sirius kase From patricia at obscure.org Thu Apr 17 23:01:20 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 19:01:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Schooldays In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55572 On Thu, 17 Apr 2003, Steve wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "The Fox" wrote: > > From: "Steve" > > > > >someone else said: > > >>...edited... > > >>... what are the odds that Arthur, Lucius and James all went to > > > >school together? > > >>...edited... > > > > > >bboy_mn: > > > > > >What are the odds? Zero, in my book. > > > > > >Arthur and Molly - close in age to Prof. McGonagall (about 70), > > > older than >Hagrid, probably older than Voldemort > > > > I agree with you that Arthur and James couldn't have gone to school > > together. But, dude -- you like the odds that a 70-year-old Molly > > Weasley has a ten-year-old child? :-) > > > > Fox > > bboy_mn: > Remember that Wizards live about twice as long as Muggles, so in > Muggle years (relative to a muggle lifespan) Molly is between 35 and > 40 years old. So yes, I believe she could easily have a 10 year old kid. But her oldest child appears to be in his mid-20s. Since we know Arthur and Molly were together while still in school, assuming they are 70ish now would raise the question of why they waited so long (mid-40s) to start their family. They don't seem to have waited until they made their fortune before having kids, and they clearly like having lots of children running around, so why wait 20+ years to start a family? Plus, I have issues with the idea of dividing a witch's or wizard's by two to get their "real" age. If we just divide the ages of magical people in half to get their "muggle years" (kind of like "dog years"), then since Hogwarts students finish up at age 17 or 18, most witches and wizards have finished their formal educations when they are only 9ish, relatively speaking. But Percy and Oliver certainly didn't seem that immature during their seventh year. I think it is more consistent with what we see in the book to assume wizard life cycles proceed at the same rate as muggle life cycles, except that the end of life is postponed quite a while. > Logically, if they can live twice as long, the child bearing years are > also twices as long. At age 70, Arthur and Molly are on the low end of > middle age. I don't think it works that neatly. In pre-industrial societies life spans were often half of what they are now in industrialized countries. That doesn't mean the women went through menopause at around 25 instead of 50-ish. Similarly, I don't think we can assume that just because wizards live longer than muggles, their childbearing years also last proportionally longer. A woman goes through menopause when her ovaries start to run out of usable eggs. Unless magical women are born with many more eggs than muggle women (which seems strange to me -- what's the connection between magic and egg quantities?) then the span of child bearing years ought to be about the same for both groups. If Molly Weasly had her first child, Bill, in her early to mid-20s and her last, Ginny, about 16 years later -- a reasonable hypothesis, given the facts we know -- then Ginny would have been born during Molly's late 30s or early 40s, about when her fertility could be expected to start declining. It's possible they simply decided that seven kids was enough and started using contraceptives after Ginny. However, the age span of their kids would fit neatly into the normal (non-magical) span of child bearing years. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Thu Apr 17 23:03:53 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 23:03:53 -0000 Subject: what about Hagrid with Crossbow? (Was Re: Hagrid in Knockturn Alley) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55573 Silly Mr. Wiggles wrote: Is it just me or does it seem a bit odd that Hagrid, a half giant and a wizard, has a muggle weapon like a crossbow? It seemed to me that the wizarding world had made its way without muggle inventons, espically because Mr.Weasly was so facinated with them. Anyone else thought about this? If this has been brought up before I am quite sorry, my computer is not wanting to work with the searching. Erin wrote: I think they've made their way without *modern* inventions; that is, most new stuff from after the (1600's, I think it was) time when they began hiding their presence from Muggles and basically cut themselves off from Muggle society. I would have found it odd if, for instance, Hagrid had had a gun. But a crossbow I can swallow. I add: Yeah, I agree with Erin here ? we do see instances of members of the WW possessing medieval-type objects and muggle weapons quite frequently, if you think about it - Godric Griffindor had a sword, there are suits of armor all over Hogwarts, and in PoA, Macnair brings an axe for the execution of Buckbeak. Incidentally, I do remember wondering why they don't have a more humane, magical way of taking care of business, y'know? The WW seems up-to-date with older objects, but not informed on modern stuff. For instance, in the Daily Prophet, a gun is described as: "a kind of metal wand that Muggles use to kill each other." (PoA, US paperback, Ch.3, 38) So, if Ron saw a gun, I bet he'd be confused, or at least have questions. Whereas he'd probably, IMO, recognize an axe right away, as he does with Gryffindor's sword in CoS: "How come you've got a sword?" said Ron, gaping at the glittering weapon in Harry's hand. (CoS, US paperback, Ch.17, 324) -Tom From erinellii at yahoo.com Thu Apr 17 21:31:22 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 21:31:22 -0000 Subject: Trios In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55574 , "grace701" wrote: > And I wasn't too sure about Seamus, Dean and > Neville. I still wonder who they hang out with. I always got the > impression that Seamus and Dean hung out, but I don't know if I've > been "movie-contaminated" or what. I'm starting to not like the > fact we don't know anything about these three. I love them because > they seem like such sweet kids! =D I believe that Neville will have a bigger role though. He has to because of his parents! It definitely said in GoF, when they are at the world cup, that Seamus was in his tent his mother and his best friend, Dean Thomas. I'm not too sure who Neville hangs out with, besides Hermione and Ginny. Maybe he has some friends from Hufflepuff or Ravenclaw. Erin From gavock at hotmail.com Thu Apr 17 22:20:31 2003 From: gavock at hotmail.com (gavock) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 22:20:31 -0000 Subject: Forbidden Forest Visits In-Reply-To: <20010731204020.52300.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55575 "Ron had never been into the Forbidden Forest before. Harry had entered it only once and had hoped never to do so again." - CoS This was before they entered together later in the book Michael From metslvr19 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 18 00:07:13 2003 From: metslvr19 at yahoo.com (Laura) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 00:07:13 -0000 Subject: Reason why Harry has never been called a Mudblood In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55576 addictedtobass2003 wrote: > > > The reason why Harry has never been called a mudblood, is simply the fact that he isn't one. Mudbloods have BOTH muggle parents >> we know that Harry's parents were a witch and a wizard because they both attended Hogwarts. However, Lily Potter was a "Mudblood" (I hate that word) as is mentioned in CoS by Tom Riddle a.k.a Lord Voldemort. "You'll be back with your dear Mudblood mother soon, Harry." Harry has a wizard and a witch for parents, the fact that one of his parents was muggle-born is irrelevant. > > > It's a good explanation, but a bit practical for racism. Do you think Malfoy is going to say "shut up, Harry, you Mu- oh wait, I've just suddenly remembered that your dad was a wizard." Extreme example, as most people know about Harry's background. But does everyone know everything about everyone else's parents? Do people hesitate to call people of mixed-race marriages the n-word? Seems rather flawed that if the racism is against all Muggles/Muggle parents, that we've only seen that word directed at those who have BOTH Muggle parents. Or perhaps that's the point, that racism is quite illogical. How much do you think students know about the status of their classmates parents? If we're not quite sure about the heritage of some minor characters, then are the students themselves also unsure? The point I'm trying to make is that this seems rather too directly focused for racism, as racism tends to attack as many people as it can. Hope I've made sense. =) -Laura From siriuskase at earthlink.net Fri Apr 18 00:38:42 2003 From: siriuskase at earthlink.net (siriuskase) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 00:38:42 -0000 Subject: Is Harry Gay? In-Reply-To: <20030416213547.81386.qmail@web14205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55577 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Tyler Hewitt wrote: > All you slash fanfic writers out there may not like > this, but I think that Harry (or anyone else, for that > matter)being gay or bi in canon will ever happen. > > Not that I wouldn't like to see it. I would LOVE it. > These books are so popular, and Harry is so loved, > that to make him gay/bi might actually help people > examine their prejuduces, and could provide a positive > role model for kids who feel 'different'. It would > also be a very daring step on JKR's part. I can't > think that it would substantially hurt book sales; the > people who would object to a gay charecter already > object to the HP books for many other pointless > reasons. > If a charecter is to be gay in the books, I hope it's > one of the 'good guys' and not someone like Draco. I'd > prefer everyone being straight in the WW (unlikely as > that seems) to having the bad guys be the gay ones. > Talk about reinforcing stereotypes! > > Tyler > hoping for a Harry/Ron ship in book 6 or 7 > Rowling has already devised a way to deal with unpopular, secretive, subcultures. Just take "wizard" and replace it with "gay". If you are interested in racism, replace "wizard" with "black". If she explicitly wrote about homosexuality, she'd lose much of her audience for no reason since she already has a good device for dealing with the problems of "special" and "misunderstood" people. sirius kase From kristen at sanderson-web.com Fri Apr 18 01:35:19 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (GKJPO) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 01:35:19 -0000 Subject: What about Lupin? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55578 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "The Fox" wrote: > It's a fair point, but Scabbers and the sneakoscope had been in the same > place for days, or at the very least for hours. Maybe Harry and Ron just > didn't notice it was ringing until they were in the compartment -- is that > what you're saying? > > Fox > Actually, the train compartment was the first time that Scabbers would be anywhere near the Sneakoscope. Before then, it would have been in Harry's hotel room. I just re-read my copy to be sure about this. They get to the compartment with Lupin and start talking. Ron almost immediately says "What is that noise?" which prompts a search of the compartment - because the source is not obvious. This, of course, means that either Lupin or Scabbers could have caused it. After this, he stuffs it in the sock and we don't know when it's going off. However, my feeling is that JKR meant for us to assume it was for Lupin when it was, in fact for Scabbers. So, yes, that's what I was saying :). Kristen From kristen at sanderson-web.com Fri Apr 18 01:39:12 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (GKJPO) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 01:39:12 -0000 Subject: UK vs. US edition Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55579 For those of you who have read both the US and UK versions of the books, which one would you recommend as the best contrast between versions (I don't want to assume it would be SS/PS just because of the name difference)? I have currently read only the US versions, but I'm taking a trip to England and am planning to get one or more of the UK versions. Thanks Kristen From suzchiles at pobox.com Fri Apr 18 01:54:29 2003 From: suzchiles at pobox.com (Suzanne Chiles) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 18:54:29 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] UK vs. US edition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55580 I suggest getting the paperback UK versions with adult covers. They are extremely well-bound and hold up to many repeated readings. There are a few differences, mostly having to do with differences in the language, such as using jumper for sweater. There are also a couple of nice little jokes that don't work in the American edition. The good news is that you don't have to go to England to get them. I ordered mine from Amazon.co.uk at a very reasonable price, even including shipping. Suzanne > For those of you who have read both the US and UK versions of the > books, which one would you recommend as the best contrast between > versions (I don't want to assume it would be SS/PS just because of > the name difference)? I have currently read only the US versions, > but I'm taking a trip to England and am planning to get one or more > of the UK versions. > > Thanks > Kristen From metslvr19 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 18 02:21:43 2003 From: metslvr19 at yahoo.com (Laura) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 02:21:43 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Magical Power (Was: Re: Lily & Petunia Evans (& Who's more magical?)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55581 Marci asked: > > > So, does this mean Harry (with two magical parents) is more powerful than Voldemort (with one magical parent)? "herm - own - ninny" wrote: > > > I think JKR has made it clear that a wizard's/witch's magical ability does not depend on their lineage. Hermione has no magical parents and she's the best in the year. > > > Now me: Sorry, you're going to have to be the victim of my nitpicking, simply because this is a good opening for something I've been wanting to bring up. Just how powerful *is* Hermione? I know she's an excellent witch, but as far as I can tell, there isn't much canon to support that she's incredibly magically powerful. She studies all the time and probably knows about 10 times more spells than Harry and Ron put together, but does that necessarily mean she's very powerful? There are a lot of references in canon to her study habits, her intelligence, and so on...but as far as I can tell there's not much to support her being an incredibly powerful witch. Not to say that she's a bad witch, but intelligence does not equal power. Thoughts? -Laura P.S. Feel free to argue, I usually miss obvious points when I bring things up =) From annemehr at yahoo.com Fri Apr 18 04:20:05 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 04:20:05 -0000 Subject: Reason why Harry has never been called a Mudblood In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55582 addictedtobass2003 wrote: > > > The reason why Harry has never been called a mudblood, is simply the > fact that he isn't one. > > Mudbloods have BOTH muggle parents >> we know that Harry's parents > were a witch and a wizard because they both attended Hogwarts. > Laura wrote: > It's a good explanation, but a bit practical for racism. Do you > think Malfoy is going to say "shut up, Harry, you Mu- oh wait, I've > just suddenly remembered that your dad was a wizard." > > Extreme example, as most people know about Harry's background. But > does everyone know everything about everyone else's parents? > The point I'm trying to make is that this seems rather too directly > focused for racism, as racism tends to attack as many people as it > can. > > Hope I've made sense. =) > > -Laura Annemehr: It's true, you do want to wonder exactly how "half-bloods" like Seamus are seen by the more pure-blooded wizards. Lucius Malfoy certainly seems to regard "purity of blood" as very important. However, (and sorry, I can't look it up because CoS is in a bedroom w/sleeping husband), doesn't Ron say, while belching up slugs, that most wizard families have interbred with muggles, or they'd have died out long ago? Mixed-bloods seem to be either a small majority or quite a large minority in the wizarding world, so, nothing special then. Only fanatics like the Malfoys might care at all, but it seems even they can't avoid associating with mixed-blooded wizards (Voldemort, for instance). On the other hand, remember in PS/SS, when Harry met Draco when they were getting their robes fitted. Draco used no specific terms, but he was talking about the sort that they "shouldn't let in" (to Hogwarts, that is): that they haven't been brought up to know wizard ways, that they'd never even heard of Hogwarts until they'd got their letter. This seems to be something specific that he would have against muggle-borns only, since mixed-blooded wizards would certainly be brought up to know about the WW. The only reason Harry gets a pass is that everybody does know that both his parents were magical, so even though he was raised by muggles, they accept his, um, wizardliness. They may not even guess how completely in the dark he was, because he had Ron to explain things and help him out right from the start. So, yes, I do think that it is only those with two muggle parents who are deemed to be "mudbloods." They are the ones who stand out when they begin at Hogwarts, and then are branded for life. Annemehr From amani at charter.net Fri Apr 18 04:28:34 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 00:28:34 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Reason why Harry has never been called a Mudblood References: Message-ID: <01e601c30562$f9e0d0a0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55583 addictedtobass2003: The reason why Harry has never been called a mudblood, is simply the fact that he isn't one. Mudbloods have BOTH muggle parents >> we know that Harry's parents were a witch and a wizard because they both attended Hogwarts. However, Lily Potter was a "Mudblood" (I hate that word) as is mentioned in CoS by Tom Riddle a.k.a Lord Voldemort. "You'll be back with your dear Mudblood mother soon, Harry." Harry has a wizard and a witch for parents, the fact that one of his parents was muggle-born is irrelevant. Me: I think the reason there are differing views over whether Harry is a halfblood or pureblood (we seem to have ruled out mudblood) is because he can be either, depending on who you ask. Techncially, he is a pureblood, because he is the child of two magical parents. To people in the WW like the Weasley's or Dumbledore, Harry probably is considered to be pureblooded. But Tom Riddle refers to Harry as a half-blood. Why? Cause Riddle's a bigoted jerk, and any taint in Harry's blood rules out any possibility of Riddle considering him to be a pureblood. So, IMO, it really depends on who you ask. --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Apr 18 07:28:42 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 07:28:42 -0000 Subject: Schooldays In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55584 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Patricia Bullington-McGuire wrote: > On Thu, 17 Apr 2003, Steve wrote: > > > > bboy_mn: > > Remember that Wizards live about twice as long as Muggles, so in > > Muggle years (relative to a muggle lifespan) Molly is between 35 > > and 40 years old. So yes, I believe she could easily have a 10 > > year old kid. > Patricia: > > ... Since we know Arthur and Molly were together while still in > school, assuming they are 70ish now would raise the question of why > they waited so long (mid-40s) to start their family. ..edited.. > bboy_mn: Why not? Lots of women today wait until later in life to have kids. Our next door neighbors when I was a kid were in their earily 60's and they had a youngest daughter who was 10. These things happen. While waiting isn't the most common way to go today, it is a way that many people do choose to go. There could be lots of explainations for the Weasleys. Maybe Molly and Arthur were wild and partied all the time when they were young, so they put off having kids. Maybe when Arthur was young, he was like Percy, and he spent all his time concentrating on work. There could be lots of explanations. > Patricia: > ... If we just divide the ages of magical people in half to get > their "muggle years" ..., then since Hogwarts students finish up at > age 17 or 18, most witches and wizards have finished their formal > educations when they are only 9ish, relatively speaking. bboy_mn: You used the one word that puts it all in perspective, RELATIVE, and the reference is relative to a normal lifespan. So to say that students are '9ish' when they graduate does NOT define their functional age. They still function like normal 17-18 year olds, but relative to relative to the normal lifespan of a wizard vs a muggle, they are 9ish. Just as a muggle 10 year old has lived about 1/10th of a normal POTENTIAL lifespan, a wizard would have only lived about 1/20th of a normal potential lifespan. So this 'divide in half for muggles' simple lends us a perspective; show us where in a lifespan these people are relative to each other. We know that wizards and witches have a life force beyond what normal humans do. Hagrid suggests that a car crash couldn't kill James and Lily. Neville falls 50 feet, which would kill anyone else, and breaks his wrist. A tiny young Neville is dropped out of a second story window on his head, and is unhurt. One could assume, that witches have magical mean of dealing with sexual issues like birth control. With magic, I would have to assume that birth control is very easy and very safe. As magical as magic is, I would also think they have a way of preserving or conserving eggs. On the other hand, based on my research, a woman has the potential to create 400,000 usable eggs. At one a month, that adds up to a very very long lifetime. In muggles, it's not eggs that run out, it the deterioration of the process by which potential eggs are matured into usable eggs. With sufficient lifeforce, vitality, and extend lifespan, there is no reason why the process of creating mature usable eggs shouldn't last longer. http://biology.clc.uc.edu/courses/bio105/reproduc.htm So, I still see no problem with Molly having kids in her 60's. bboy_mn originally said: > > > Logically, if they can live twice as long, the child bearing years > > are also twices as long. At age 70, Arthur and Molly are on the > > low end of middle age. > Patricia: > > ... In pre-industrial societies life spans were often half of what > they are now in industrialized countries. > > ...edited... bboy_mn: That's because of sanitation, diet, and disease. Those people who died young still had a potential lifespan of 100 years; that biological capability was there. It was external circumstance that prematurely shorten that lifespan potential. While I respect your alternate view, I still stand by what I originally said, and I think the evidence is there to support it. Just an opinion. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Apr 18 07:44:21 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 07:44:21 -0000 Subject: what about Hagrid with Crossbow? (Was Re: Hagrid in Knockturn Alley) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55585 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "silly_mr_wiggles" wrote: > aja_1991 said: > > > The foreshadowing here could be many things. (1) Voldemort can be > > killed, but *not* by magic - it will need to be a muggle invention > > like a crossbow or gun, something his immortality spells can't > > protect him from. > > . . . . . . . . > > Is it just me or does it seem a bit odd that Hagrid, a half giant > and a wizard, has a muggle weapon like a crossbow? ...edited... > > <3jes bboy_mn: Let not forget that officially Hagrid doesn't have a wand with which to defend himself, and even if he did, he is not a fully trained wizard and may be a bit lacking in self-defense curses. So I don't see it as at all odd for him to have a primitive weapon consistent with the age that wizards appear to live in. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Apr 18 07:52:05 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 07:52:05 -0000 Subject: UK vs. US edition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55586 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Suzanne Chiles wrote: > ...edited... > > The good news is that you don't have to go to England to get them (UK Editions). I ordered mine from Amazon.co.uk at a very > reasonable price, even including shipping. bboy_mn: If you are in the USA, you don't have to go that far for them. You can order them from Chapters-Indigo in Canada. http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/ bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Apr 18 07:57:06 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 07:57:06 -0000 Subject: UK vs. US edition (Additional Note) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55587 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Suzanne Chiles > wrote: > > ...edited... > > > > The good news is that you don't have to go to England to get > them (UK Editions). I ordered mine from Amazon.co.uk at a very > > reasonable price, even including shipping. > > > bboy_mn: > If you are in the USA, you don't have to go that far for them. You can > order them from Chapters-Indigo in Canada. > > http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/ > > bboy_mn Sorry, I should have added this to the original post. When you get to Chapters-Indigo, don't freak out when you see the prices, remember those are Canadian dollars. [CA$10.00 = US$6.90] bboy_mn From yutu at wanadoo.es Fri Apr 18 02:10:29 2003 From: yutu at wanadoo.es (izaskun granda) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 04:10:29 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] PS/SS Title Change (was: What is Canon?) References: <010901c30456$dc6b1650$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> <3E9DD285.000001.60897@monica> <003f01c30510$d667d350$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> Message-ID: <006c01c3054f$b06d8a70$f915253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 55588 Katy Cartee wrote: I do see your point. But i'm guessing that this myth is one that originated in Britain? Because I've never heard of it. The Holy Grail is something known world wide as far as i can tell. So if the Philosopher's Stone is an area-specific myth, I can understand why they changed it. But knowing now where the name originated, I do wish they had left the title alone. Me: It's not "an area-specific myth" as far as I know, it's the same in Spain and France, in fact, the real Nicholas Flammel was French, or he did live in France. And there were Spanish alchemist trying to discover the philosopher's stone five hundred years ago. Its Spanish name is "piedra filosofal", more or less the same name. If I'm not mystaken, the philosopher's stone is a well known myth all through Europe, at the very least. Izaskun Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From coffeebean033 at aol.com Fri Apr 18 03:28:34 2003 From: coffeebean033 at aol.com (coffeebean033 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 23:28:34 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's Magical Power (Was: Re: Lily & Petunia Evans (... Message-ID: <179.18fce8c8.2bd0cae2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55589 Well, I think that the fact that Hermione does know more spells does make her more powerful in the fact that she has more of a variety of spells to choose from. As such, JKR does also stress that not everything is based on magical ability. Friendship, bravery, and love all seem to jump into the plot in one way or another. So Hermione could be a lot more powerful than we think! We will just have to wait and see what JKR decides to surprise us with next~! ~Gwen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ratchick22 at hotmail.com Fri Apr 18 06:11:07 2003 From: ratchick22 at hotmail.com (herm - own - ninny) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 06:11:07 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] UK vs. US edition Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55590 >Kristen asked: For those of you who have read both the US and UK versions >of the >books, which one would you recommend as the best contrast between >versions (I don't want to assume it would be SS/PS just because of >the name difference)? I have currently read only the US versions, >but I'm taking a trip to England and am planning to get one or more >of the UK versions. My books are all published by Bloomsbury (UK), and PS is the only one I've read in both "versions." However I feel safe in saying that the difference between the two was *extremely* minute, practically indiscernable unless you had both copies out in front of you and were purposly looking for a difference. All they changed was a random word here and there (ie: "lot" to "crowd" or "jumper" to "sweater") so if you're buying the UK versions hoping to see any significant difference, I really wouldn't suggest it because there isn't one. Rowling herself has stated in numerous interviews that the different "versions" were highly overrated, and I would agree. Hope that helps! dina _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From noybycb at yahoo.ca Fri Apr 18 07:02:13 2003 From: noybycb at yahoo.ca (Alia) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 07:02:13 -0000 Subject: UK vs. US edition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55591 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "GKJPO" wrote: > For those of you who have read both the US and UK versions of the > books, which one would you recommend as the best contrast between > versions (I don't want to assume it would be SS/PS just because of > the name difference)? I have currently read only the US versions, > but I'm taking a trip to England and am planning to get one or more > of the UK versions. Hi Kristen, I read the British editions first and have since read the US editions. Sorcerer's Stone definitely had the most changes as far as I could tell. In the second book onward, the only changes really were spellings (color instead of colour etc.) and a few terms (sweater instead of jumper, sneakers instead of trainers etc.), but in the first book they changed not only the title but a few other phrasings (Harry has been accepted at Hogwarts instead of having a place at Hogwarts etc.). There weren't any pictures through the orig. editions I read and the cover art, font style and size are different also for all of them. Cheers, Alia From ratchick22 at hotmail.com Fri Apr 18 08:47:35 2003 From: ratchick22 at hotmail.com (herm - own - ninny) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 08:47:35 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's Magical Power (Was: Re: Lily & Petunia Evans (& Who's more magical?)) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55592 Laura wrote: >There are a lot of references in canon to her [Hermione's] study >habits, >her intelligence, and so on...but as far as I can tell >there's not much > >to support her being an incredibly powerful witch. >Not to say that > >she's a bad witch, but intelligence does not equal power. Me: This brings up a whole new can of worms: what *is* wizard "power?" How do we define it? Hermione seems to have a limitless reserve of spells which she can perform accurately. Surely this would make her a "powerful" witch during a duel. However, this then implies that any wizard who has the initiative could go out and *learn* to be powerful, rather than being born that way. Harry presents the opposite side of the coin. He appears to be a very powerful wizard who does not yet know his full potential, and who certainly isn't taking extra steps to "learn to be powerful." Therefore we can only assume that he was born like that. So which is it? Does wizard power come from knowledge and practice, or are they simply born with a certain level of power and that's that? I've always seen it as a bit of both. It's like, oh I don't know, running. (Bad analogy time *grin*). See, some of us are born better runners than others. With training one can improve their skills. However, if you are born a slow runner no amount of training will land you an olympic medal. So wizards are born with a certain level of power. At Hogwarts they not only learn to control their magic, but also improve it through practice. Hermione is thus more powerful than your average student because she practices on her own time. Harry is more powerful than your average student because he started out that way. In GoF he beats the Imperius curse *faster* than anyone else, but does this mean that the other kids wouldn't have done over time? For example, if Neville practiced day and night would he eventually be able to beat the Imperius curse as Harry had done, or would he never be able to do it because he lacks the power? Is there anything in canon that supports limits on what wizards can do based on their level of power? Neville seems to fumble most spells, but it's not for lack of trying, therefore it must be for lack of power. He *is* good at Herbology though. This says a lot to me. Maybe we shouldn't use the word power as a blanket statement (ie: Dumebledore is powerful). Canon suggests that wizards have different degrees of power in different areas. Neville may not be "powerful" in potions, but he's powerful in Herbology. The same can be said for Harry. To call him a powerful wizard isn't accurate then. He's powerful in Defense Against the Dark Arts, but is likely worse off than Neville in Herbology. Or maybe these are just their 'strengths' and shouldn't be considered when determining their overall power as a wizard. I don't know. I've confused myself, lol. Any thoughts? dina _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From Neotoma73 at aol.com Fri Apr 18 09:39:15 2003 From: Neotoma73 at aol.com (Neotoma73 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 05:39:15 -0400 Subject: What about Lupin? Message-ID: <52805171.5938103E.026A9F31@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55593 In a message dated 4/17/2003 6:04:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, "The Fox" writes: > It reacts to untrustworthiness, so you're more or less right. Lupin is > lying, there's no doubt about that -- but does that make him untrustworthy > in general? That's the real question, isn't it. Lupin is generally responsible and one of the best teachers at the school, but he does keep vital information to himself when he really should be sharing it. The most obvious example of this is that he *never* tells Dumbledore that Sirius Black is an animagus -- that simple fact would have made finding our favorite escapee so much easier, and at the time Lupin thought Black was really guilty of betraying Lily and James, and murdering Peter. > Most of the parents who'd > object to his being there (which objection prompts his resignation once > Snape outs him, and isn't *that* a big allegorical neon sign) would do so > for the simple fact that he's a werewolf; but I bet there are others, and I > might actually number Snape among these, who are less concerned that he's a > werewolf than they are that he *lied* about it, or at least didn't tell the > truth, so they didn't have the chance to take appropriate > precautions. Cf. Greg Louganis hitting his head on the diving board. Given Ron's reactions to the revelation that Lupin is a werewolf, we can say there is a good bit of fear and prejudice in the WW about werewolves. Most of which is probably deserved, given that werewolves are Dark Creatures and attack humans by preference. As far as we know, the only treatment is Wolfsbane potion, which is difficult to make and thus probably not available to all werewolves -- and they still have to be willing to drink it, which some may not. Also, I'd like to note that Snape didn't spill the beans about Lupin until Lupin *failed to take the potion*. Yeah, Snape was very angry and spiteful over the whole Shrieking Shack mess, but he had a rock-solid reason to do it to. Lupin couldn't be trusted to take the Wolfsbane, couldn't be trusted not to endanger the students. That's something to keep in mind when wondering about Lupin's general trustworthiness. He might have the best of intentions, but so far his judgement/follow-through hasn't been the best. AnneL From marinaj_22 at yahoo.com.ar Fri Apr 18 10:01:38 2003 From: marinaj_22 at yahoo.com.ar (Marina) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 07:01:38 -0300 Subject: Hermione's Magical Power - Molly and Arthur's age Message-ID: <00ad01c30591$a95320a0$fd2137c8@fr3m3685> No: HPFGUIDX 55594 Laura wrote: << Just how powerful *is* Hermione? I know she's an excellent witch, but as far as I can tell, there isn't much canon to support that she's incredibly magically powerful. She studies all the time and probably knows about 10 times more spells than Harry and Ron put together, but does that necessarily mean she's very powerful? >> Me: I think the fact that, like you said before, she knows ten times more spells than Harry and Ron (or any of her classmates, for that matter), AND that she's able to master them without any problems proves just how powerful she is. __ mmboy (or was it Fox?) wrote: << I agree with you that Arthur and James couldn't have gone to school together. But, dude -- you like the odds that a 70-year-old Molly Weasley has a ten-year-old child? :-) >> Me again: I think the odds that Molly is in her 70s are more than good. In chapter 31 of GoF, not only does Molly say that the Whomping Willow was planted after she left school, she also "reminisced at lenght about the gamekeeper before Hagrid, a man called Ogg". We know Hagrid was expelled fifty years before CoS, and if memory serves, he became gamekeeper right after, so that means Molly had either already finished school at the time, or was somewhere between her 1st and 7th year at Hogwarts (because if not, she wouldn't remember Ogg) . That would make her at least 63 (but I think she's older than that). Marina - new to HP4GU [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Apr 18 11:20:39 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 11:20:39 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Magical Power In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55595 "Laura" wrote: > > Just how powerful *is* Hermione? I know she's an excellent witch, > but as far as I can tell, there isn't much canon to support that > she's incredibly magically powerful. She studies all the time and > probably knows about 10 times more spells than Harry and Ron put > together, but does that necessarily mean she's very powerful? > > There are a lot of references in canon to her study habits, her > intelligence, and so on...but as far as I can tell there's not much > to support her being an incredibly powerful witch. Not to say that > she's a bad witch, but intelligence does not equal power. > > Thoughts? Well - she's excellent at learning from books. If a spell - like riddiculus - requires something you just can't learn from books, she fails. She's skilled and has a variety of spells, but Powerful... I don't really know. Harry has several abilities only few wizards can do - and if he did as much study as Hermione or had her learning abilities, he'd be able to do more than anyone. However, power... I suppose one way is to compare spell-castings... Such as *expelliarmus* - Harry's spell was powerful enough to knock Snape out in PoA. Sometimes that spell only disarms, but knock out? That's extra power. And Hermione might control her power, only use what needed... -- Finwitch From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Fri Apr 18 13:27:21 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 13:27:21 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Magical Power In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55596 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "finwitch" wrote: > I suppose one way is to compare spell-castings... Such as > *expelliarmus* - Harry's spell was powerful enough to knock Snape out > in PoA. Sometimes that spell only disarms, but knock out? That's > extra power. Actually, it was the combined force of Harry, Ron and Hermione all casting Expelliarmus at exactly the same moment that knocked out Snape. We don't know what Harry's spell alone would've done. And earlier in the book, Snape's solo Expelliarmus knocked Lockhart across the room, so it's not unknown for that spell to have a violent effect. It seems to depend on some combination of the caster's power and intent. (Sirius and Remus are both powerful wizards, but they disarm the Trio without causing any violent side- effects, so presumably they were both careful to control their Expelliarmus.) Marina Rusalka (distinguishing herself from the other Marina newly arrived on the list) rusalka at ix.netcom.com From aja_1991 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 18 13:56:32 2003 From: aja_1991 at yahoo.com (aja_1991) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 13:56:32 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Magical Power - Molly and Arthur's age In-Reply-To: <00ad01c30591$a95320a0$fd2137c8@fr3m3685> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55597 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Marina" wrote: > mmboy (or was it Fox?) wrote: > << > I agree with you that Arthur and James couldn't have gone to school > together. But, dude -- you like the odds that a 70-year-old Molly > Weasley has a ten-year-old child? :-) > >> > > Me again: > > I think the odds that Molly is in her 70s are more than good. In >chapter 31 of GoF, not only does Molly say that the Whomping Willow >was planted after she left school, she also "reminisced at lenght >about the gamekeeper before Hagrid, a man called Ogg". > > We know Hagrid was expelled fifty years before CoS, and if memory >serves, he became gamekeeper right after, so that means Molly had >either already finished school at the time, or was somewhere between >her 1st and 7th year at Hogwarts (because if not, she wouldn't >remember Ogg) . That would make her at least 63 (but I think she's >older than that). My turn: You are making an argument similar to Steve (bboy_mn), namely that Molly (and presumably Arthur) are older than Hagrid because they remember the gamekeeper before Hagrid. First, to nitpick a bit, Molly and Arthur could certainly be younger - or the same age as - Hagrid. My reading of the argument you are making is that Hagrid immediately became gamekeeper upon his expulsion in his third year at Hogwarts, so if Molly can remember Ogg, she must be older than Hagrid. (There's another possible reading, which I'll get to shortly). Assuming this, Molly could remember Ogg if she was at Hogwarts at the time, including if she was in her first or second year (younger than Hagrid), third year (same age as Hagrid), or fourth year up (slightly older than Hagrid). So even with that reading, there's no assurances that she's older (or significantly older) than Hagrid. Secondly, let's take in to account the possibility that a 13 year old boy (Hagrid) might not become gamekeeper right away, but need some kind of tutelage. Hagrid does seem a natural around wild magical creatures, but even then he probably needs *some* training, even if only for a few years. So a previous gamekeeper would be around to train Hagrid as an assistant. If the previous gamekeeper were anything other than a very old witch/wizard, he/she might not decide to retire right away either. (I can't see Dumbledore or Dippet expelling Hagrid, then turning around and firing the current gamekeeper so Hagrid has a job, or a fantastic coincidence that Ogg is in his final year and is retiring anyway). In the intervening years, following the expulsion of Hagrid, the gamekeeper retires, and Hagrid takes over full time. Somewhere in that time period, Molly comes to Hogwarts, meets and builds her store of memories about Ogg, and later reminisces to her children. Third point (and this is purely on memory, so very subject...) I think Hagrid's title is "Keeper of Keys and *Grounds*" at Hogwarts. Or at least, that's how he introduces himself to Harry when the first meet. (Possibly movie contamination here...). No mention of being the *gamekeeper*. Is it possible Hagrid shortly after expulsion became groundskeeper (wonder if he knew Frank Bryce?), then sometime later, after Ogg retired, took on the position of gamekeeper as well? And finally, in my reading of this quote: "reminisced at length about the gamekeeper before Hagrid, a man called Ogg" - I took into account what might be called the familiarity factor. If Hagrid was serving an apprenticeship or was otherwise employed at the time Molly was at Hogwarts, while she would know Hagrid (or at least of him - who could miss him?), she'd realize her children already know Hagrid, and might think they'd like to know about the man he succeeded in the position. It's entirely possible that she's shared memories of Hagrid with her children - and Harry - around the dinner table at home, but being back at school brought back memories of her days there. aja_1991, who sees Hagrid as mid-60s, Arthur and Molly as early 50s, Lucius as mid-late 40s, and the surviving Marauders as mid 30s. From mysmacek at yahoo.com Fri Apr 18 14:42:18 2003 From: mysmacek at yahoo.com (mysmacek) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 14:42:18 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Magical Power (Was: Re: Lily & Petunia Evans (& Who's more magical?)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55598 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "herm - own - ninny" wrote: > Laura wrote: > >There are a lot of references in canon to her [Hermione's] study >habits, > >her intelligence, and so on...but as far as I can tell >there's not much > > >to support her being an incredibly powerful witch. >Not to say that > > >she's a bad witch, but intelligence does not equal power. > > So which is it? Does wizard power come from knowledge and practice, or are > they simply born with a certain level of power and that's that? I've always > seen it as a bit of both. It's like, oh I don't know, running. (Bad Hi all, I have thought about this for some time and my idea is rather similar: [warning - these are mostly my feelings from reading the books] There are two sources of what we call wizard's "greatness" - raw power and skill. Harry has probably above-average raw power, as demonstrated by his powerful patronus, maybe his child uncontrolled spells etc. The raw power limits the maximum possible effect of the spell. But this raw power itself does not grant anything - Harry is not really willing or able to learn, so he can't effectively use the power he has. His power manifest usually when he is in rage or subconsciously or when he took lots of pain to memorize the spell. Hermione, on the other hand, has a great talent for learning, applying and inventing spells. She can use the power she has very effectively (modulo her age and education so far). She can use the spells much better than Harry, because, in the first place, she usually knows which spell to use. Her strength is not a raw power, but knowledge and skill. Like in your running example above, she is probably capable of excelling in anything requiring ability to learn and self-discipline. We do not know whether Hermione is the most talented young witch currently in Hogwarts, just like we do not know whether Harry is. But my estimate is that both are either there, or very, very close. Just each has a talent in different area :) I really like Hermione :-) Mysmacek From d_lea25 at yahoo.ca Fri Apr 18 16:31:38 2003 From: d_lea25 at yahoo.ca (Lea) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 12:31:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who knows Tom Riddle is Voldemort? And other questions related In-Reply-To: <006701c3047e$90cd7440$f316253e@takun> Message-ID: <20030418163138.57300.qmail@web13003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55599 > Well, here's something interesting that I've >kept asking myself. Was Malfoy with Voldemort at >Hogwarts? I don't know. Voldemort must be >sixtysomething, he was in his 6th or 7th year at >howgarts when the CoS was opened and that happened >50 years ago. I don't think Malfoy is that old, I >had always pictured him younger, maybe because he >has a young son. So, if Malfoy was not with >Voldemort at school, how did he get the diary?? Do >you think Voldemort himself gave it to him, many >years later? We already know he has some >compromising items at home, probably things >Voldemort has given him. >"izaskun" And now me: Does anyone know for sure if Draco has any siblings? I can't recall anything from canon. In GoF the Malfoys attend the QWC with Draco only. Which, IMHO, would place Lucius approximately the same age as James and Lilly, perhaps a touch older, but not by much. Keeping in mind that the Weasleys have 7 children - there's no way that the Malfoys are in the same age bracket. Any thoughts? Lea :) Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From d_lea25 at yahoo.ca Fri Apr 18 16:36:01 2003 From: d_lea25 at yahoo.ca (Lea) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 12:36:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lucius's age and class year; Lily (was Re: Who knows Tom Riddle is Voldemort?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030418163601.41180.qmail@web13007.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55600 Grace, If you're talking trios, don't forget Draco, Crabbe & Goyle! Lea :) --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hp_lexicon at yahoo.com Fri Apr 18 16:55:45 2003 From: hp_lexicon at yahoo.com (hp_lexicon) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 16:55:45 -0000 Subject: DVD timeline mystery In-Reply-To: <3E9FA151.471.26639A3@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55601 Last night I spent some time updating the Lexicon's day-to-day calendars of the first two books, integrating the DVD timeline a little more closely with what was already there. I discovered something very interesting. They have a date wrong. No, wait a sec, hear me out. They have a date wrong that they shouldn't have gotten wrong, because it's a no-brainer. They put the date of the visit to Hagrid's for tea as September 7. That's not possible. That's a Saturday, and the tea was clearly stated as being on a Friday, the afternoon of the first Friday of their first week. So what, you say? There are plenty of date issues we could bring up. What's the big deal? The big deal--and this is kind of weird--is that *I* had the date wrong on my calendar. Without realizing it, two years ago when I was creating that calendar, I plugged that event into the Saturday slot instead of Friday. I never noticed it until I was going over things last night. I had it wrong. Now I suppose there's no reason why they couldn't have made the exact same error. But I can't help but wonder how it happened that they reproduced in their timeline the same error that was found in mine. Curious... Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon From grosich at nyc.rr.com Fri Apr 18 17:06:12 2003 From: grosich at nyc.rr.com (Gina Rosich) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 10:06:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] DVD timeline mystery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030418170612.52378.qmail@web13108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55602 hp_lexicon wrote: Last night I spent some time updating the Lexicon's day-to-day calendars of the first two books, integrating the DVD timeline a little more closely with what was already there. I discovered something very interesting. They have a date wrong. The big deal--and this is kind of weird--is that *I* had the date wrong on my calendar. Now I suppose there's no reason why they couldn't have made the exact same error. But I can't help but wonder how it happened that they reproduced in their timeline the same error that was found in mine. Curious... Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon ME: Oh, that's very funny Steve! Makes you wonder if TPTB use the lexicon as a reference as much as we fans do! Wouldn't that be an amazing compliment?! Gina :-) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From d_lea25 at yahoo.ca Fri Apr 18 17:30:15 2003 From: d_lea25 at yahoo.ca (Lea) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 13:30:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Answers, questions...... In-Reply-To: <20030417063635.49831.qmail@web80502.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030418173015.28253.qmail@web13005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55603 > heidi wrote: >She never says that Dumbledore or the others >were >alive then. She simply said that the heads of >the >schools were on the judging panel, which >means that >the people who were heads of the school two >hundred >years ago were on the judging panel. You're >misreading >the "they" reference, it seems. Hope this >clears it >up! >heidi Good point Heidi. And keep in mind that 50 years ago when Tom Riddle was attending Hogwarts and was 16 years old, the Headmaster at that time was Dippet, according to CoS, pg 181. Lea :) --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From devika at sas.upenn.edu Fri Apr 18 17:36:13 2003 From: devika at sas.upenn.edu (Devika) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 17:36:13 -0000 Subject: Lucius Malfoy's Age (was: Who Knows Tom Riddle is Voldemort?) In-Reply-To: <20030418163138.57300.qmail@web13003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55604 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lea wrote: > > > Does anyone know for sure if Draco has any siblings? I can't recall anything from canon. In GoF the Malfoys attend the QWC with Draco only. Which, IMHO, would place Lucius approximately the same age as James and Lilly, perhaps a touch older, but not by much. Keeping in mind that the Weasleys have 7 children - there's no way that the Malfoys are in the same age bracket. > > Any thoughts? > I don't think we can assume that Lucius is the same age as Lily and James just because Draco and Harry are the same age. According to JKR in an interview, Snape is 35 or 36 years old. I'm not sure when that interview was, but I think it was in reference to book 4. That means that James and Lily would have been about 36 or 37 (let's say 37) at the start of OoP. Since Harry is 15, he would have been born when Lily was 22. I know of people who have had their first children at around this age, but that doesn't mean that a lot of people don't wait until they are older. Also, it's possible that Lucius may have married later in life. I don't have much to base this on, but Narcissa seems like the younger trophy wife type to me. It's entirely possible that Lucius is closer in age to Arthur Weasley. Lucius Malfoy's interaction with Arthur Weasley suggests that their mutual animosity stems from something other than their differing beliefs about Muggles. While this doesn't mean that they were at Hogwarts together, it seems likely that they have had some kind of personal interaction, which might be more feasible if they were closer in age. Also, Sirius never makes any mention of Malfoy. I think that Sirius would probably know, or at least suspect, that Malfoy had been a DE. If Sirius had known, or at least known of, Malfoy at Hogwarts, he probably would have said something to Harry. None of this is conclusive, but somehow I just think that Lucius Malfoy is older than Harry's parents would be. IMO, the fact that children are the same age doesn't mean that their parents are necessarily even close in age. Devika From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 18 17:44:45 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 17:44:45 -0000 Subject: UK vs. US edition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55605 Kristen asked: > For those of you who have read both the US and UK versions of the > books, which one would you recommend as the best contrast between > versions? Now me: I've read both the US and UK versions of all of the books, but it's hard for me to recommend which one would be the best contrast. The changing of British words into American words diminishes as you go along - for example, it's a "dustbin" in PS and a "trashcan" in SS, but in either version of GoF it's a "dustbin." Similarly, in both versions of GoF, Harry recalls the password to Dumbledore's office as being "sherbet lemon" in his second year while in the American version of CoS this was changed to "lemon drop" (this one actually annoys me - IMO, if they're going to change it in one book, they should be consistent and change it in all of the books!). So if you're looking for the book that has the most changes, I'd go with PS/SS. There are pages on the Lexicon that detail the changes between the UK and US versions that you could also consult in making your decision. But if you're looking for the book where the changes are substantive rather than stylistic, go with GoF. In the first chapter, the UK version has Wormtail telling Voldemort "If I curse..." while the US version says "If I murder..." This change completely changes the meaning, IMO, and was very confusing to me (since Moody was cursed, not murdered) until I (by participating in this wonderful group) discovered it was an editorial change rather than JKR's original intent. In addition, the UK version of GoF has Fudge saying at the end "I've heard of scars acting as alarm bells before" while the US version has him saying "I've *never* heard of scars acting as alarm bells before" (my emphasis). Again, changing the meaning. I've also noticed that the later versions of the UK books correct errors that are not corrected in later versions of the US books - ancestor to descendant in CoS, for example. Also, the UK PS adult version has Hagrid saying that he has to put Sirius' motorbike away while prior UK and current US versions have Hagrid saying that he has to return the bike to Sirius (clearing up one of our many mysteries!). I've probably made your decision harder rather than easier, but I hope this has been helpful. Whichever book you choose to buy, I'm sure you'll enjoy it tremendously! ~Phyllis From stix4141 at hotmail.com Fri Apr 18 17:55:08 2003 From: stix4141 at hotmail.com (stickbook41) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 17:55:08 -0000 Subject: FILK: Brawl Test Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55606 A filk to the tune of "Fight Test" by the Flaming Lips, on their excellent new album Yoshimi Battles the Pink Robots. Dedicated to all those veteran filkers I admire. *BRAWL TEST* Setting: The Yule Ball...Ron begins his assault on Hermione's choice of dates. He uses finger-quotes a lot. DISEMBODIED VOICE: The Brawl begins NOW! RON: I thought you were smart I think that I'm right I think it's better to pick a fight I thought there was a virtue In fighting for your school So when it came time to dance I thought I'll point out the chance That this time you could be wrong And that you Would be a fool You don't know where this "friendship" ends And where the cheating begins It's not a mystery! Oh it's Harry who's your friend Tell me why aren't you helping him Work out his clue Instead of fraternizing with Krum? For I'm sure he takes advantage of A certain girl blinded by "love" I'm afraid I don't get it Oh it makes Me throw up You don't know where this "friendship" ends And where the cheating begins It's not a mystery! And I heard your confessions About those little "study sessions" In the library All because of his fame And he can't even say your name You have to face it That he doesn't really like you I laid eyes on that guy And I knew it was a pack of lies I should have punched him But instead I let him I let him take you You don't know where this "friendship" ends And where the cheating begins It's not a mystery! And you've got the nerve to get this uptight When I likely saved your life You got all mad at me! You don't know where this "friendship" ends And where the cheating begins It's not a mystery! And you don't know where the dancing ends And where the treachery begins Poor Harry's history! (Harry rolls eyes. Hermione stomps off in a huff.) And I don't know where school spirit ends And where hormones begin It's all a mystery A mystery Cheers! -stickbook whose very first filk this is From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 18 17:57:30 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 17:57:30 -0000 Subject: DVD timeline mystery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55607 Lexicon Steve wrote: > Now I suppose there's no reason why they couldn't have made the > exact same error. But I can't help but wonder how it happened that > they reproduced in their timeline the same error that was found in > mine. Now me: I think it's entirely possible that they could have consulted the timeline in the Lexicon. The Lexicon is (correctly!) noted as a superb HP source in David Colbert's book, "The Magical Worlds of Harry Potter," so it's quite possible it's known to whomever was responsible for compiling the CoS DVD timeline. If this is so, however, the fact that they didn't give the Lexicon any credit is quite another matter indeed... Perhaps we'll know for sure if they issue a revised timeline with the PoA DVD that corrects the date! ~Phyllis From stix4141 at hotmail.com Fri Apr 18 18:41:15 2003 From: stix4141 at hotmail.com (stickbook41) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 18:41:15 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Magical Power (Was: Re: Lily & Petunia Evans (& Who's more magical?)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55608 Laura: > Just how powerful *is* Hermione? I know she's an excellent witch, > but as far as I can tell, there isn't much canon to support that > she's incredibly magically powerful. She studies all the time and > probably knows about 10 times more spells than Harry and Ron put > together, but does that necessarily mean she's very powerful? > > There are a lot of references in canon to her study habits, her > intelligence, and so on...but as far as I can tell there's not much > to support her being an incredibly powerful witch. Not to say that > she's a bad witch, but intelligence does not equal power. Me: There's a brief summary here on the FAQ: http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/hermione.html under the heading Hermione's Intelligence: Why is She in Gryffindor instead of Ravenclaw? I generally subscribe to the belief that there's a certain amount of raw talent you need to do well. And if you don't have it, or have it in a limited amount, then studying and practicing can only take you so far. All in all, I'd say she's pretty powerful. In SS/PS, she's the first one to levitate her feather. Not even powerful-enough-to-conjure-a- patronus!Harry was able to do that. Perhaps her strength is in practical spells--which would exclude Divination, a branch of magic for which Hermione has little talent and even less patience. Cheers! -stickbook From metslvr19 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 18 19:12:44 2003 From: metslvr19 at yahoo.com (Laura) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 19:12:44 -0000 Subject: Date Question;SHIP (was:Re: Hermione's Birthday; SHIP (FITD)) In-Reply-To: <11589167840.20030416142251@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55609 Susanne wrote: > > > > I thought Greicy was saying that she discounted the quote > entirely because people in HP "don't date". > > But JKR's answer didn't match this, no matter if she was > talking about GoF *or* the entire series. > > > Sorry if I've misinterpreted this, because quite honestly, I often find these shipping discussions hard to follow. =) However, although I agree that people in HP don't "go on dates," I doubt this had anything to do with JKR's answer. Seeing as she's the one who created this whole universe, she was probably somewhat confused/thrown off by the question as well. Which is probably why she said, "They're platonic friends," rather than a simple yes or no answer. Giving a yes or no answer to a somewhat confusing question would just confuse everyone even more, so instead, she made it into its own complete, stand-alone answer. Hope that makes sense. -Laura Who doesn't SHIP one way or another, as long as Ron gets some affection eventually. =) From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Apr 18 20:28:33 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 20:28:33 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Magical Power - Molly and Arthur's age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55610 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aja_1991" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Marina" > wrote: > > mmboy (or was it Fox?) wrote: > > << > > I agree with you that Arthur and James couldn't have gone to > > school together. But, dude -- you like the odds that a > > 70-year-old Molly Weasley has a ten-year-old child? :-) > > >> > > > > Me again: > > > > I think ... Molly is in her 70s are more than good. In > >chapter 31 of GoF, not only does Molly say that the Whomping Willow > >was planted after she left school, she also "reminisced at lenght > >about the gamekeeper before Hagrid, a man called Ogg". > > > > We know Hagrid was expelled fifty years before CoS, ..., he became > > gamekeeper right after, so that means Molly had either already > > finished school at the time, or was somewhere between her 1st > > and 7th year at Hogwarts (because if not, she wouldn't > > remember Ogg. That would make her at least 63 .... > > My turn: (aja_1991) > You are making an argument similar to Steve (bboy_mn), namely that > Molly (and presumably Arthur) are older than Hagrid because they > remember the gamekeeper before Hagrid. > > ..., Molly and Arthur could certainly be younger - or the same age > as - Hagrid. ... the argument you are making is that Hagrid > immediately became gamekeeper..., so if Molly can remember Ogg, she > must be older than Hagrid. .... Assuming this, Molly could remember > Ogg if she was at Hogwarts at the time, including ... her first or > second year, third year, or fourth year up.... So even with that > reading, there's no assurances that she's older ... than Hagrid. > > Secondly, let's take in to account the possibility that a 13 year > old boy (Hagrid) might not become gamekeeper right away, .... > > > ...this quote: "reminisced at length about the gamekeeper before > Hagrid, a man called Ogg" - I took into account ... the familiarity > factor. If Hagrid was serving an apprenticeship or was otherwise > employed at the time Molly was at Hogwarts, while she would know > Hagrid ..... It's entirely possible that she's shared memories of > Hagrid with her children - and Harry - around the dinner table at > home, but being back at school brought back memories of her days > there. > > ...edited... > > aja_1991, who sees Hagrid as mid-60s, Arthur and Molly as early 50s, > Lucius as mid-late 40s, and the surviving Marauders as mid 30s. bboy_mn: Well, you have as good as admitted Molly could be from 2 years younger than Hagrid (perhaps 2 to 10 is more accurate) to 4 years older. In GoF, Hagrid's age is estimated at 65,; that plus 4 years makes her 69. We are only claiming a little more than 70. The difference is that we are estimating the likely age of Molly, and you seem to be estimating the minimum age of Molly. I will admit that you are right, Molly COULD be that young, but I don't think it is likely. There is one thing lacking to make me support your position, and that is a lack of familiarity with Hagrid. Based on that, I say her age pre-dates Hagrid. Certainly, if Molly was in school with Hagrid, she would have reminisced about Hagrid as she reminisced about Ogg. If she had been there when Hagrid was expelled, if she had been there while Hagrid was in training, given her current knowledge of Hagrid, and knowing what good friends Hagrid and Harry are, I don't see how she could have resisted talking about him. And if she did reminisce about him, Harry would have certainly made a mental/narrative note about it. Given the Weasley families and Harry's current familiarity with Hagrid, it seem nearly impossible to believe that the Weasley old 'school days' familiarity with Hagrid would not get mentioned. So while I acknowledge it is within the realm of possibility for Molly to be similar in age to or younger than Hagrid, the lack of narrative familiarity between Molly, Arthur, and Hagrid makes it more likely that Molly and Arthur are older. Sorry, but I just can't believe that under the circumstances Molly wouldn't have reminiscing at length about Hagrid if they were at Hogwarts together, even if Hagrid was only gamekeeper in training. If that narrative changes, then my opinion will change along with it, but lacking that narrative, I stand firm in my position that Molly and Arthur are at least 5 years older, and as much as 10 to 15 years older than Hagrid. just a thought. bboy_mn From srsiriusblack at aol.com Fri Apr 18 20:47:51 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 16:47:51 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What about Lupin? Message-ID: <15f.1f1ba631.2bd1be77@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55611 Hello Neotoma73 at aol.com, In reference to your comment: ? Also, I'd like to note that Snape didn't spill the beans ? about Lupin until Lupin *failed to take the potion*. ? Yeah, Snape was very angry and spiteful over the ? whole Shrieking Shack mess, but he had a rock-solid ? reason to do it to. Lupin couldn't be trusted to take the ? Wolfsbane, couldn't be trusted not to endanger the ? students. That's something to keep in mind when ? wondering about Lupin's general trustworthiness. He ? might have the best of intentions, but so far his ? judgement/follow-through hasn't been the best. I tend to disagree. Lupin didn't show any signs of not being trustworthy to drink the Wolfsbane on the night of Peter's escape and the Shrieking Shack Fiasco. He simply forgot in his rush to save the Trio from Peter and to prove Sirius Black's innocence- actually it was more to the discover the truth, but in the end, this is what he managed. Regardless, Lupin realised that the Trio was in danger, and he promptly set off for the Shrieking Shack. Not taking the wolfsbane was a simple mistake. He overlooked it in his rush to save the people he loved and to once and for all discover the truth about his best friend. Snape was vindictive. He *had* 'tried to spill the beans' about Lupin when he assigned the essay on werewolves; however only clever Hermione discovered the truth. Snape in the end wanted glory and retribution. His actions were not motivated by Lupin's untrustworthiness as a werewolf or a person, but by his own want for glory, fame, and to put Lupin and Black away or kill them forever. They were his enemies in school and to some degree, even after Dumbledore's encouragement to 'shake hands' and let go of the past still are. We know more about Lupin and Black than we do of Snape. We only see that Lupin,Black and Potter(sr) were much like the Trio when they were at Hogwarts and that Snape was their enemy- much like Malfoy is to the Trio. We know what JKR has shown us of Black and Lupin's past; whereas, Snape is still sketchy. We do not know if he is still a double agent, nor do we know for which side he is really going to fight. We know that he is cruel and slimy. We know that he works without patience for others. But, we still have been shown that he is vindictive and will destroy others for his own benefit. So, again, I say I disagree. Lupin certainly has shown some disregard for rules- but who of our loveable characters has not? We saw his internal struggle to tell Dumbledore or stay true to his pact with James, Sirius... and Peter for that matter. Perhaps his loyalties were off, or maybe it was the power of friendship that prevented him from going to Dumbledore with the truth. We will really have to wait to find out. I still stand firm on my beliefs that Lupin will play a major role in everything to come and I still do not buy into Evil!Lupin, one bit. -Snuffles who took a break from the list only to find she missed it. 'All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did.' T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sixhoursahead at yahoo.com Fri Apr 18 15:58:19 2003 From: sixhoursahead at yahoo.com (Angela Evans) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 08:58:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sirius's Vault (UK vs. US) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030418155819.54194.qmail@web14609.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55612 For some time now I have been pondering the matter of Sirius's vault 711. It is the only other vault number we hear (POA Owl Post Again) of, and its presumable proximity to high-security vault 713 makes me believe that it has significance. (perhaps Sirius' line of work?) I mentioned it once before and someone said that in their American edition the vault number does not appear. I don't have any of my US versions, because they are all in...well, the US. What does anyone else's edition say. Significance? ANGELA --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From marinaj_22 at yahoo.com.ar Fri Apr 18 16:22:54 2003 From: marinaj_22 at yahoo.com.ar (Marina) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 13:22:54 -0300 Subject: Molly and Arthur's age Message-ID: <005501c305c6$ec44c820$cb2d37c8@fr3m3685> No: HPFGUIDX 55613 aja_1991 wrote: << You are making an argument similar to Steve (bboy_mn), namely that Molly (and presumably Arthur) are older than Hagrid because they remember the gamekeeper before Hagrid. >> Me: Ooops. I didn't see Steve's message. I though I was posting an original argument :) (my bad - will research better next time) aja_1991 again: << My reading of the argument you are making is that Hagrid immediately became gamekeeper upon his expulsion in his third year at Hogwarts, so if Molly can remember Ogg, she must be older than Hagrid. >> Me again: I never said Molly had to be older than Hagrid to remember Ogg. What I said was that, since she remembered him, she'd either finished school by that time (for this she HAD to be older, yes), OR she was between her 1st and 7th year (in this case, she could be younger or older, since Hagrid was in his 3rd year when he was expelled). aja_1991: << Secondly, let's take in to account the possibility that a 13 year old boy (Hagrid) might not become gamekeeper right away, but need some kind of tutelage. >> Me, yet again: This is a good point, and one I didn't consider because I'd always got the impression that Hagrid had become gamekeeper right after he was expelled, since in Chapter 24 of GoF, Rita Skeeter writes that "Rubeus Hagrid, who admits to being expelled from Hogwarts in his third year, has enjoyed the position of gamekeeper at the school ever since..." Of course we know that Rita is not precisely the best source of information, but I didn't think she'd lie about something like this. It's not as if it's a particularly juicy bit of gossip. However, when I looked back to see if this was mentioned anywhere else, I found that in Chapter 17 of CoS, Tom Riddle says that Dumbledore "persuaded Dippet to keep Hagrid and train him as a gamekeeper". So the Dark Lord backs your reading, and Rita Skeeter backs mine. Niiiice :) aja_1991: << Third point (and this is purely on memory, so very subject...) I think Hagrid's title is "Keeper of Keys and *Grounds*" at Hogwarts. >> Me: You're right, that's how Hagrid introduces himself to Harry in PS, but since Hagrid's status as Hogwarts "gamekeeper" is mentioned quite a few times too (in the two sentences of GoF and CoS I quoted above, as well as in Chapter 5 of PoA, where Dumbledore himself says "...Rubeus Hagrid, who has agreed to take on this teaching job in addition to his gamekeeping duties"), I think it's safe to asume they're either the same thing (English is not my native language, so correct me if I'm wrong about this), or that Hagrid has both jobs. Marina - who really really likes to quote HP books. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From nienna_the_weeper at hotmail.com Fri Apr 18 17:14:41 2003 From: nienna_the_weeper at hotmail.com (Louise E) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 17:14:41 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] More Questions (was Re: The timeline on the DVD *confirms* canon). Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55614 Hermione may have just been moved up a year in her primary school, as far as I know this occurs quite often in the English education system, as I know two people who skipped a year of primary school because they were more advanced than other pupils in their year group. Lou She is the cloaked woman in mourning, but she is not Despair, even though Grief is her domain; tears flow from her ceaselessly and her house looks out upon the Walls of the Night. Instead she is Pity and Suffering that brings wisdom and endurance beyond hope; from the waters of her tears much is born that is unlooked for, yet it is often that which sustains life. _________________________________________________________________ On the move? Get Hotmail on your mobile phone http://www.msn.co.uk/mobile From mysmacek at yahoo.com Fri Apr 18 18:16:32 2003 From: mysmacek at yahoo.com (mysmacek) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 18:16:32 -0000 Subject: Answers, questions......(specifically the Triwizard Tournament) In-Reply-To: <20030417063946.99276.qmail@web13502.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55615 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, iluvgahan wrote: > The Sparrow wrote: > > << before- In GoF (sorry can't give you exact quote) > Hermione-I think-says that the heads of the three > schools would be on the judging panel since they were > alive at the last one in 1794. That was over 200 years > ago, yet Dumbledore is only 150. This would also make > Karkaroff and madam Maxine over 200 years old as well.>>> > > now me: > > The exact quote is, "...the Heads of the participating > schools are *always* (my stressing) on the panel...because > all three of them were injured during the Tournament of > 1792, when a cockatrice the champions were supposed to be > catching went on the rampage." > > ...which does NOT necessarily mean that Dumbledore, Maxime, > and Karkaroff were the same Heads of school as in 1792, > just that ever since that event the Heads have been given > that privledge.. Well, my understanding of this quote is that is is *known* that they are on the panel because it is written somewhere that all three of them were injured in 1792 tournament - i.e. it's an evidence that at least then the headmasters were on the panel. Mysmacek From ratchick22 at hotmail.com Fri Apr 18 19:02:14 2003 From: ratchick22 at hotmail.com (herm - own - ninny) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 19:02:14 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who knows Tom Riddle is Voldemort? And other questions related Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55616 Lea wrote: >Does anyone know for sure if Draco has any siblings? I can't recall > >anything from canon. In GoF the Malfoys attend the QWC with Draco >only. Me: There is no canononical evidence that Draco has any siblings. I hadn't even thought of the possibilty, however someone did mention it awhile ago (can't for the life of me remember who). They said something like: Draco has all the bad qualities of the baby in the family, implying that he is likely to have an older sibling. Whoever said this, can you elaborate? This seems like a really interesting idea, so I'd love to hear your theory on it. dina _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From mysmacek at yahoo.com Fri Apr 18 19:08:36 2003 From: mysmacek at yahoo.com (mysmacek) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 19:08:36 -0000 Subject: What is Canon? In-Reply-To: <000801c3050d$13564340$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55617 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Katy Cartee" wrote: > Barb wrote: > > > The statement about Harry and Hermione being platonic friends, for > > instance, could refer to the time of GoF, when that seems to be a > > perfectly adequate way to describe their relationship. This doesn't > > mean it will always be true. > > Agreed. > > > After GoF came out, for instance, she talked about having to rewrite > > large parts of it because she needed a conduit for information > > between Hogwarts and the rest of the wizarding world, and finally > > decided to use Rita Skeeter for that, although she'd initially had a > > Weasley cousin in mind. If she'd said ahead of time that we were > > going to see a Weasley cousin in GoF and then we discovered that we > > got Rita instead, I'd just think she'd changed her mind and decided > > that Rita worked better. > > Also agreed. We would all be missing out if JKR was not allowed to change her mind. > > > That's one reason I'm a bit reluctant to call her interviews canon, > > except as they explain confusing bits from the four (soon to be > > five!) extant books. I think of the interviews as being more > > like 'guidance,' especially for my fanfiction writing. But until it > > appears between the pages of an actual Harry Potter book, in that > > she has the right to change her mind about what she says--indeed, > > has an obligation, if the story would be better written a different > > way--I'd rather not treat tidbits gleaned from her interviews as > > carved in stone. They're helpful, certainly, but IMO, not canon. > > I agree that AT THIS TIME, her interviews/comments are not canon. But i believe that they SHOULD be considered canon once the series is complete - as long as what she said does not contradict the completed series. > > > I prefer to ignore a lot of the merchandizing, so I don't have other > > things on this list. Should I consider the depiction of Harry on my > > daughter's cherry liquid hand soap (this is really sitting in my > > bathroom!) to be canon? > > Well there's nothing canonical about a picture unless, for instance, it depicted Harry's scar as being on his cheek instead of his forehead. In that case, we would most certainly choose the forehead as being the correct placement "in canon." But pretend that the picture depicted Harry reading the book "Pride and Prejudice" and had a caption underneath it stating "Harry, reading his favorite book." If nowhere in the completed series are we told what Harry's favorite book is, i would take this caption as being "canonical fact" as there is no reason not to! Please no :-). Even the movie is not reliable. I do not recommend believing merchandise at all. That we do not know otherwise does not mean that it's a truth (truth at least in Potterverse, I mean) BTW, here is what Webster (www.webster.com) has to say about canon. Especially (3) is relevant Main Entry: 1can?on Pronunciation: 'ka-n&n Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Old English, from Late Latin, from Latin, ruler, rule, model, standard, from Greek kanOn Date: before 12th century 1 a : a regulation or dogma decreed by a church council b : a provision of canon law 2 [Middle English, prob. from Old French, from Late Latin, from Latin, model] : the most solemn and unvarying part of the Mass including the consecration of the bread and wine 3 [Middle English, from Late Latin, from Latin, standard] a : an authoritative list of books accepted as Holy Scripture b : the authentic works of a writer c : a sanctioned or accepted group or body of related works 4 a : an accepted principle or rule b : a criterion or standard of judgment c : a body of principles, rules, standards, or norms 5 [Late Greek kanOn, from Greek, model] : a contrapuntal musical composition in two or more voice parts in which the melody is imitated exactly and completely by the successive voices though not always at the same pitch synonym see LAW Mysmacek From litalex at slashyalex.com Fri Apr 18 19:37:41 2003 From: litalex at slashyalex.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 12:37:41 -0700 Subject: UK vs. US edition Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030418123313.00bab008@purple.ucdavis.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 55618 Hello, Kristen (sp?) wrote: > (I don't want to assume it would be SS/PS just because of > > the name difference)? I hear that they are the most different. I've read both versions of books 1-4, but I only own the UK versions; so I don't remember much. > > but I'm taking a trip to England and am planning to get one or > more > > of the UK versions. I recommend buying all of them in the small paperbacks. Perhaps even in boxset. It's worth the money, imho, and it's not even that expensive, comparatively. I bought mine when I was visiting Hong Kong... little Alex From mysmacek at yahoo.com Fri Apr 18 21:09:06 2003 From: mysmacek at yahoo.com (mysmacek) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 21:09:06 -0000 Subject: nine and three quarters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55619 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "liana_goldenquill" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hans" > wrote: > > Has anyone thought of the significance of the number nine and three > > quarters? > > I have heard an old legend that Boudicca/Boadicea was buried between > platforms 9 and 10 of the King's Cross Station. I remember this myth > from long before I read the first Harry Potter book, so I'm not sure > I can find sources to back it up, but I will keep trying. And here is the link: (thanks, mister Google!) http://www.museum-london.org.uk/frames.asp?http%3A//www.museum-london.org.uk/MOLsite/templates/learn001.asp%3Fpage_Name%3Dboudica_myth Mysmacek From selene at earthlink.net Fri Apr 18 15:51:51 2003 From: selene at earthlink.net (Susan Fox-Davis) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 08:51:51 -0700 Subject: Amazon was Re: UK vs. US edition Message-ID: <3EA01F16.8E5C0D8@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 55620 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Suzanne Chiles wrote: > The good news is that you don't have to go to England to get them (UK Editions). I ordered mine from Amazon.co.uk at a very > reasonable price, even including shipping. I put my order in yesterday. In addition, I've had my order for the US edition in at Amazon.com for some time now, and just received a nice e-mail from them saying that they plan to have the book in my mailbox on June 21, rather than mailing it out on the day of publication as usual! Various restrictions apply but it's still a nice gesture. Letter's text follows: Subject: You Will Receive Harry Potter on the Day of Release! As someone who has pre-ordered "Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix," you are probably itching to get your hands on the first copy off the press. Great news--we are going to make sure you receive your copy(s) on the day of release, June 21, 2003, guaranteed, at no additional charge to you!* You don't have to do a thing--just sit back and wait for the book to arrive on your doorstep on June 21. Please be sure that the shipping address selected for this order is a location where you will be on that Saturday, as this guarantee does not apply if no one is available to accept delivery. Pretty nice, for a faceless corporation. Susan Fox-Davis selene at earthlink.net From nienna_the_weeper at hotmail.com Fri Apr 18 21:16:59 2003 From: nienna_the_weeper at hotmail.com (Louise E) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 21:16:59 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Harry Gay? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55621 sirius kase wrote: >>Rowling has already devised a way to deal with unpopular, secretive, >subcultures. Just take "wizard" and replace it with "gay". If you >are interested in racism, replace "wizard" with "black". If she >explicitly wrote about homosexuality, she'd lose much of her audience >for no reason since she already has a good device for dealing with the >problems of "special" and "misunderstood" people. > > You don't even need to replace the word wizard with "black" or "gay" etc to see Rowling's device for dealing with prejudice. She deals with it in CoS with the issue of mudbloods and purebloods. Personally I think this confronts the problem and moral issue of prejudice well and that making a character gay just for this reason would be completely unnecessary, as I don't think it has any real relevance to the story. Lou She is the cloaked woman in mourning, but she is not Despair, even though Grief is her domain; tears flow from her ceaselessly and her house looks out upon the Walls of the Night. Instead she is Pity and Suffering that brings wisdom and endurance beyond hope; from the waters of her tears much is born that is unlooked for, yet it is often that which sustains life. _________________________________________________________________ Stay in touch with absent friends - get MSN Messenger http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger From tulibble at yahoo.com Fri Apr 18 21:22:16 2003 From: tulibble at yahoo.com (Rachel Slater) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 21:22:16 -0000 Subject: PS/SS Title Change (was: What is Canon?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55622 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Patricia Bullington-McGuire wrote: > I'm an American, and I knew about the philosopher's stone long > before the first Harry Potter book came out. There are many other > Americans who also know about it apart from the HP books. And I'm > sure there are many Brits who had *not* heard about the > philosopher's stone before Harry Potter. *raises a hand* I'm British, and I'd never heard of the philosopher's stone before HP. I didn't find it made any difference to my enjoyment of the story, because Hermione (reading from a book) explains all we need to know in two sentences: 'The Stone will transform any metal into pure gold. It also produces the Elixir of Life, which will make the drinker immortal.' (PS/SS, ch 13) The fact that's it's a myth with history makes me happy because I'm a completist, but as far as I'm concerned, that knowledge certainly isn't necessary. I didn't know hypogriffs were real-mythological either, but Buckbeak works fine :) Cynjen. From litalex at slashyalex.com Fri Apr 18 21:35:43 2003 From: litalex at slashyalex.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 14:35:43 -0700 Subject: Draco's siblings? (was Re: Who knows Tom Riddle is Voldemort?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030418143325.00ba8958@slashyalex.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55623 Hello, At 12:02 04/18/2003, herm - own - ninny wrote: >for the life of me remember who). They said something like: Draco has all >the bad qualities of the baby in the family, implying that he is likely to >have an older sibling. Whoever said this, can you elaborate? This seems like >a really interesting idea, so I'd love to hear your theory on it. Well, it could also just be the 'only child' syndrome. In fact, I have a lot of those qualities, even though I'm the elder of two children. Then again, I was pretty spoiled before my parents had my younger sister. Back to Draco, which specific qualities? :-) little Alex From the.harrisfamily at virgin.net Fri Apr 18 22:28:51 2003 From: the.harrisfamily at virgin.net (eillim022861) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 22:28:51 -0000 Subject: Molly & Arthur's ages Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55624 'Steve' wrote in relation to the post from 'aja_1991' who argued that Molly and Arthur could be younger than Hagrid. >`There is one thing lacking to make me support your position, and >that is a lack of familiarity with Hagrid. Based on that, I say her >age pre-dates Hagrid. Certainly, if Molly was in school with Hagrid, >she would have reminisced about Hagrid as she reminisced about Ogg'. My view: I think that Molly and Arthur are younger than Hagrid, mainly because I don't see him being expelled and then suddenly being gamekeeper. `aja1991' comments >`let's take in to account the possibility that a 13 year old >boy (Hagrid) might not become gamekeeper right away, but need some >kind of tutelage'. My view I also think that in view of the situation that Hagrid had to leave Hogwarts, I feel that he would keep his head down and not draw attention to himself, particulary with Riddle still there. He was thought by many to have opened the Chamber of Secrets and as a consequence, a girl died. He was also half-giant, and it is possible that some students may have realised this. Hagrid may have been advised to keep himself to himself and not socialise with the students. That would explain why Molly and Arthur weren't familiar with Hagrid, beasue he kept a low profile for a few years after he was expelled. eillim (who believes that Snape is on the side of good) From jmholmes at breckcomm.com Fri Apr 18 22:23:44 2003 From: jmholmes at breckcomm.com (Julie Holmes) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 16:23:44 -0600 Subject: Question about the Bones Family Message-ID: <004101c305f9$2cd29660$6401a8c0@arvada1.co.home.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55625 In canon, is it established that Voldemort killed Susan Bones' grandparents, or was it her parents? I'm fairly certain it is her grandparents, but for the life of me I cannot find the reference. Thanks in advance for any replies. . ?'?) ?.???.???) ?.?*?) (?.?? (?.?? ?.?? ?.???.?*`?-?~*~*~Julie~*~?*`?-? (?. I've lost my desire for doing The deeds any dragon should do But since I can't alter my nature I guess I'll just terrify you.... ?'?) ?.???.???) ?.?*?) (?.?? (?.?? ?.?? ?.???.?*`?-?draco*`?-? (? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maryblue67 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 18 22:54:53 2003 From: maryblue67 at yahoo.com (maryblue67) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 22:54:53 -0000 Subject: Question about the Bones Family In-Reply-To: <004101c305f9$2cd29660$6401a8c0@arvada1.co.home.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55626 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Julie Holmes" wrote: > In canon, is it established that Voldemort killed Susan Bones' grandparents, or was it her parents? I'm fairly certain it is her grandparents, but for the life of me I cannot find the reference. Thanks in advance for any replies. Me: As far as i remember, Hagrid tells Harry that Voldemort killed some of the best wizards of the time, including the Bones, and then we see Susan Bones in the Sorting Hat ceremony, but nowhere i remember anything in canon that links them. I might be wrong, i haven't reread the books in a while. Maria From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Fri Apr 18 22:57:08 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 22:57:08 -0000 Subject: Question about the Bones Family In-Reply-To: <004101c305f9$2cd29660$6401a8c0@arvada1.co.home.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55627 Julie wrote: In canon, is it established that Voldemort killed Susan Bones' grandparents, or was it her parents? I'm fairly certain it is her grandparents, but for the life of me I cannot find the reference. Thanks in advance for any replies. I reply: The only passage I can recall that explicitly mentions the Bones family is in PS/SS, Ch.4, 55/56 (I'm using the US paperback.) Hagrid is explaining to Harry about Voldemort's reign of terror, upon their first meeting: "...No one ever lived after he decided to kill 'em, no one except you, an' he'd killed some o' the best witches an' wizards of the age - the McKinnons, the Bones, the Prewetts - an' you were only a baby, an' you lived." I can't find a specific reference to how (or even if) the Susan Bones in Hufflepuff of Harry's year is actually related to the Bones family that Hagrid mentions in that passage. -Tom From katydid3500 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 18 22:59:27 2003 From: katydid3500 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 15:59:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] DVD timeline mystery In-Reply-To: <20030418170612.52378.qmail@web13108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030418225927.6666.qmail@web40504.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55628 Gina Rosich wrote: hp_lexicon wrote: Last night I spent some time updating the Lexicon's day-to-day calendars of the first two books, integrating the DVD timeline a little more closely with what was already there. I discovered something very interesting. They have a date wrong. The big deal--and this is kind of weird--is that *I* had the date wrong on my calendar. Now I suppose there's no reason why they couldn't have made the exact same error. But I can't help but wonder how it happened that they reproduced in their timeline the same error that was found in mine. Curious... Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon Gina: Oh, that's very funny Steve! Makes you wonder if TPTB use the lexicon as a reference as much as we fans do! Wouldn't that be an amazing compliment?! Me: Compliment...maybe, but if they had used the Lexicon, I'd be rather annoyed that they didn't give Steve or the Lexicon the credit for all the work and research done to make the timeline. ~Kathryn --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Fri Apr 18 23:25:53 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 16:25:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Question about the Bones Family In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030418232553.18365.qmail@web40507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55629 "Julie Holmes" wrote: > In canon, is it established that Voldemort killed Susan Bones' grandparents, or was it her parents? I'm fairly certain it is her grandparents, but for the life of me I cannot find the reference. Thanks in advance for any replies. Me:It is not established, in the books, but JKR has said the following in the Barnes&Noble chat: "matiaskanfunfa: There is a girl named Susan Bones who was sorted in the first book, and there was a family called the Bones that Voldemort tried to destroy. Is this a coincidence, or will Harry meet her in future books? JR: Susan Bones's grandparents were killed by Voldemort!" Maria (Maria Kirilenko) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From patricia at obscure.org Fri Apr 18 23:41:02 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 19:41:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco's siblings? (was Re: Who knows Tom Riddle is Voldemort?) In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20030418143325.00ba8958@slashyalex.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55630 On Fri, 18 Apr 2003, Alexandra Y. Kwan wrote: > Hello, > > At 12:02 04/18/2003, herm - own - ninny wrote: > >for the life of me remember who). They said something like: Draco has all > >the bad qualities of the baby in the family, implying that he is likely to > >have an older sibling. Whoever said this, can you elaborate? This seems like > >a really interesting idea, so I'd love to hear your theory on it. > > Well, it could also just be the 'only child' syndrome. I tend to see Draco as a spoiled only child who never had to learn to share with younger siblings and never had to live in the shadow of an older sibling. The fact that the Malfoys only brought one child (him) to the Quidditch World Cup further supports the "only child" hypothesis, but we won't know for sure unless JKR tells us in future books or interviews. BTW, I'm not claiming that all only children are spoiled by any stretch. I know plenty of well-adjusted onlies. Draco just isn't one of them. ;) ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Fri Apr 18 23:46:16 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 19:46:16 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Snape's Former DE Status Public Knowledge? (WAS: Dumbl... Message-ID: <1d1.7a5e8bc.2bd1e848@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55631 In a message dated 4/16/03 10:26:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com writes: > So we either have to believe that the > two hundred witches and wizards in attendance at Karkaroff's trial > kept this information to themselves, or that it's public knowledge > but individuals who one would think would know about it (Sirius and > Fudge) don't know for some unexplained reason. Perhaps they *had* to keep it to themselves. There could be some sort of spell... It could be like when they issue a gag order on trials. There is a very good chance that those witches and wizards were told that they were not to reveal anything that happened at these trial - at least IMHO. ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ (Who will be in Florida from Monday until Sunday and shudders at the thought of the state of her Inbox!) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Sat Apr 19 00:00:17 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 00:00:17 -0000 Subject: Molly & Arthur's ages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55632 I personally lean towards Molly and Arthur being older than Hagrid, and Hagrid being older than Lucius, as a natural first reaction to the text. But, it also bears mention that Molly and Arthur do have a familiarity with Hagrid that is interesting, as we see from CoS: "Well, gotta be off," said Hagrid, who was having his hand wrung by Mrs. Weasley ("Knockturn Alley! If you hadn't found him, Hagrid!"). (CoS, US paperback, Ch.4, 56) and: "Yeh should've ignored him Arthur," said Hagrid, almost lifting Mr. Weasley off his feet as he straightened his robes. "Rotten ter the core, the whole family, everyone knows that - no Malfoy's worth listenen' ter - bad blood, that's what it is - come one now, let's get outta here." (CoS, US paperback, Ch.4, 63) They do seem to converse and relate to each other as though they're old friends, IMO, and they do seem to share a mutual dislike for the Malfoys. Now, this could stem from several places: - It's *possible* that Hagrid was around while Molly and Arthur were at school. I don't really think this is the case, but it is possible, as aja_1991 suggests. - It's also possible that Hagrid and the Weasleys had some kind of working relationship with Dumbledore during the last Voldemort war. This, IMO, seems more likely to me. We know that Hagrid was helpful to Dumbledore during the first conflict because of his involvement in PS/SS Ch.1. It's possible that the Weasleys were also involved - i.e. perhaps they were all part of the "old crowd" together. We don't know that for sure, but it's a strong guess. - It's also possible that Molly and Arthur became well-acquainted with Hagrid while their eldest children (Bill and Charlie) were in attendance at Hogwarts. For instance, Hagrid asks about Charlie in PS/SS, Ch.8, 141 (US paperback,) and Charlie seems on very friendly and chatty terms with Hagrid in GoF, Ch.19 while showing off the dragons for the First Task. I like the Charlie connection, personally, since we know canonically that Charlie has a proclivity for animals and creatures, just like Hagrid. "My brother of Charlie was always more of an outdoor type, so he went for Care of Magical Creatures." (CoS, Ch.14, 252) Not to mention Hagrid's constant friendly/fond references to the twins throughout the series, at least in PS/SS, Ch.8, 140: "I've spent half me life chasin' yer twin brothers away from the forest." and also from PoA, Ch.10, 204: "... I don't think we've ever had such a pair of troublemakers." "I dunno," chuckled Hagrid. "Fred and George Weasley could give 'em a run fer their money." Overall, I'd say that Hagrid exhibits a familiarity and friendliness with the Weasleys that is beyond the standard gamekeeper/student relationship that we might expect him to have with most of the students. How this relates to their ages, well, that's up for grabs, and whether or not Hagrid was in-training with Ogg before assuming his position, I guess that is too. ;-) IMHO, Molly and Arthur pre-date Hagrid, but are familiar with him both through their kid's relationship with him, and through their mutual involvement with Dumbledore in Voldemort War I. But it's not up for grabs on Lucius' age: Lucius is definitely younger than both Hagrid and Molly/Arthur, because we know that the Chamber of Secrets was opened "fifty years ago, so it was before [Lucius'] time..." (CoS, US paperback, Ch.12, 223) So, Hagrid was there and expelled before Lucius even arrived at the school. And Draco is aware of Hagrid pre-his first day at school on the Hogwarts Express: "That's Hagrid," said Harry, pleased to know something that the boy didn't. "He works at Hogwarts." "Oh," said the boy," I've heard of him. He's a sort of servant, isn't he?" "He's the gamekeeper," said Harry. he was liking the boy less and less every second. "Yes, exactly. I heard he's a sort of savage - lives in a hut on the school grounds and every now and then he gets drunki, tries to do magic, and ends up setting fire to his bed." (PS/SS, US paperback, Ch.5, 78) So, I do think it's reasonable to assume that this story is from Lucius/Narcissa's own time at Hogwarts, although now, come to think of it, I suppose that since Lucius was a governor of the school during CoS, it's also possible to guess that he heard the story well- after he graduated from the school through that connection. Oh well - just figured I'd throw all that in. ;-) -Tom From william.truderung at sympatico.ca Sat Apr 19 00:29:27 2003 From: william.truderung at sympatico.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 00:29:27 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Age (was:Re: DVD timeline mystery) In-Reply-To: <20030418225927.6666.qmail@web40504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55633 hp_lexicon wrote: Last night I spent some time updating the Lexicon's day-to-day calendars of the first two books, integrating the DVD timeline a little more closely with what was already there. I discovered something very interesting. They have a date wrong. The big deal--and this is kind of weird--is that *I* had the date wrong on my calendar. Now I suppose there's no reason why they couldn't have made the exact same error. But I can't help but wonder how it happened that they reproduced in their timeline the same error that was found in mine. Curious... Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon Gina: Oh, that's very funny Steve! Makes you wonder if TPTB use the lexicon as a reference as much as we fans do! Wouldn't that be an amazing compliment?! Kathryn: Compliment...maybe, but if they had used the Lexicon, I'd be rather annoyed that they didn't give Steve or the Lexicon the credit for all the work and research done to make the timeline. Me: It looks to me that they did in fact use the Lexicon as a source for their dates, even if they copy-and-pasted them without credit. But that means that Hermione's 'official' age is now set in stone, because of Steve's OPINION that she is younger than Harry. No offence Steve, I idmire your work a great deal -- I simply feel that it is much more logical for her to be older than Harry, given the UK educational practices. As for why she would have approved this timeline, (with the one modification to Tom Riddle's Hogwarts dates -- apparently necessary for Tom to be able to spend some time under Grindelwald's tutelage) well, we already know that JKR is not very comfortable with numbers (i.e. the number of students at Hogwarts issue) and may have missed the importance of that particular date to the fans. Or not. Bill From d_lea25 at yahoo.ca Sat Apr 19 00:33:10 2003 From: d_lea25 at yahoo.ca (Lea) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 20:33:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius's Vault (UK vs. US) In-Reply-To: <20030418155819.54194.qmail@web14609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030419003310.94578.qmail@web13001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55634 Angela Evans wrote: >For some time now I have been pondering the >matter of Sirius's vault 711. It is the only >other vault number we hear (POA Owl Post >Again) of, and its presumable proximity to >high-security vault 713 makes me believe that >it has significance. (perhaps Sirius' line of >work?) I mentioned it once before and >someone said that in their American edition >the vault number does not appear. I don't >have any of my US versions, because they are >all in...well, the US. What does anyone >else's edition say. Significance? Angela... I've got the Bloomsbury edition here and it DEFINITELY spells out Vault 711... Does anyone have the US edition they can check? Lea :) --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From devika at sas.upenn.edu Sat Apr 19 00:47:19 2003 From: devika at sas.upenn.edu (Devika) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 00:47:19 -0000 Subject: Sirius's Vault (UK vs. US) In-Reply-To: <20030419003310.94578.qmail@web13001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55635 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lea wrote: > > > Angela Evans wrote: > > > > >For some time now I have been pondering the >matter of Sirius's vault 711. It is the only >other vault number we hear (POA Owl Post >Again) of, and its presumable proximity to >high-security vault 713 makes me believe that >it has significance. (perhaps Sirius' line of >work?) I mentioned it once before and >someone said that in their American edition >the vault number does not appear. I don't >have any of my US versions, because they are >all in...well, the US. What does anyone >else's edition say. Significance? > > > > Angela... > > I've got the Bloomsbury edition here and it DEFINITELY spells out Vault 711... Does anyone have the US edition they can check? > > Lea :) > I have the Scholastic hardcover edition. There is no mention of Sirius's vault number. I had no idea that his vault number was even mentioned until someone said so on this list a while back. I don't see why something like that would have been omitted from the US edition, but it's not there. If his vault number is 711, it seems that it might be significant. Can someone post the exact quote from the UK version that mentions it? Devika From d_lea25 at yahoo.ca Sat Apr 19 01:05:18 2003 From: d_lea25 at yahoo.ca (Lea) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 21:05:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius's Vault (UK vs. US) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030419010518.4599.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55636 Devika wrote: >I have the Scholastic hardcover edition. >There is no mention of >Sirius's vault number. I had no idea that >his vault number was even >mentioned until someone said so on this list >a while back. I don't >see why something like that would have been >omitted from the US >edition, but it's not there. If his vault >number is 711, it seems >that it might be significant. Can someone >post the exact quote from >the UK version that mentions it? And now me: Pg 315 of PoA is a letter that Sirius sent to Harry when he was on his way home from Hogwarts: "Dear Harry, I hope this finds you before you reach your aunt and uncle. I don't know whether they're used to owl post. Buckbeak and I are in hiding. I won't tell you where, in case this falls into the wrong hands. I have some doubt about the owl's reliability, but he is the best I could find, and he did seem eager for the job. I believe the Dementors are still searching for me, but they haven't a hope of finding me here. I am planning to allow some Muggles to glimpse me soon, a long way from Hogwarts, so that the security on the castle will be lifted. There is something I never got round to telling you during our brief meeting. It was I who sent you the Firebolt - Crookshanks took the order to the Owl Office for me. I used your name but told them to take the gold from Gringotts vault number seven hundred and eleven - my own. Please consider it as thirteen birthdays' worth of presents from your godfather. I would also like to apologise for the fright I think I gave you, that night last year when you left your uncle's house. I had only hoped to get a glimpse of you before starting my journey north, but I think the sight of me alarmed you. I am enclosing something else for you, which I think will make your next year at Hogwarts more enjoyable. If ever you need me, send word. Your owl will find me. I'll write again soon. Sirius " --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From melclaros at yahoo.com Sat Apr 19 01:30:20 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 01:30:20 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Magical Power In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55637 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "finwitch" > wrote: > > I suppose one way is to compare spell-castings... Such as > > *expelliarmus* - Harry's spell was powerful enough to knock Snape > out > > in PoA. Sometimes that spell only disarms, but knock out? That's > > extra power. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "marinafrants" wrote: > > Actually, it was the combined force of Harry, Ron and Hermione all > casting Expelliarmus at exactly the same moment that knocked out > Snape. and me: ....and really, wasn't it hitting the wall that knocked him out? It took all three of them to blast him off his feet, that's for sure. > Snape's solo Expelliarmus knocked Lockhart > across the room, so it's not unknown for that spell to have a > violent effect. It seems to depend on some combination of the > caster's power and intent. They knew what that spell did, and they knew what they wanted to do, they were just "lucky" enough to have like-minded backup and a distracted and occupied target. If only ONE of them had tried it-- well one shudders to think of the effect--on *the caster*! (Although personally I wouldn't have minded seeing that.) Mel From yutu at wanadoo.es Fri Apr 18 22:51:45 2003 From: yutu at wanadoo.es (izaskun granda) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 00:51:45 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who knows Tom Riddle is Voldemort? And other questions related References: Message-ID: <002901c305fd$17979260$3692253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 55638 Dina wrote: There is no canononical evidence that Draco has any siblings. I hadn't even thought of the possibilty, however someone did mention it awhile ago (can't for the life of me remember who). They said something like: Draco has all the bad qualities of the baby in the family, implying that he is likely to have an older sibling. Whoever said this, can you elaborate? This seems like a really interesting idea, so I'd love to hear your theory on it. Me: Well, I think he's an only child. I don't have any evidence to support this belief but I think that if Lucius Malfoy had more children, he would have taken them all to the Quidditch World Cup, he likes to show off. And Draco is definitively a very spoilt child, not unlike many only children I know. "izaskun granda" _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From marinaj_22 at yahoo.com.ar Fri Apr 18 23:06:11 2003 From: marinaj_22 at yahoo.com.ar (Marina) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 20:06:11 -0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Question about the Bones Family References: <004101c305f9$2cd29660$6401a8c0@arvada1.co.home.com> Message-ID: <006501c305ff$4548bca0$f62d37c8@fr3m3685> No: HPFGUIDX 55639 Julie Holmes wrote: << In canon, is it established that Voldemort killed Susan Bones' grandparents, or was it her parents? I'm fairly certain it is her grandparents, but for the life of me I cannot find the reference. Thanks in advance for any replies. >> Me: The Bones are mentioned in PS, Chapter 4, when Hagrid was telling Harry about You-Know-Who and Lily and James' death; what he says is: "No one ever lived after he decided ter kill 'em, no one except you, an' he'd killed some of the best witches an' wizards of the age - the McKinnons, the Bones, the Prewetts - ...." The fact that Hagrid was talking about Susan's grandparents was confirmed, if memory serves, by JKR herself in an interview. I don't think they're mentioned anywhere else in the books. Marina. From yutu at wanadoo.es Fri Apr 18 23:11:50 2003 From: yutu at wanadoo.es (izaskun granda) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 01:11:50 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Molly and Arthur's age References: <005501c305c6$ec44c820$cb2d37c8@fr3m3685> Message-ID: <003e01c305ff$e5535930$3692253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 55640 Ok. That's a tricky question. Maybe JKR made a mistake here. I have always thought that Arthur and Molly were about 10 or 15 years older than the Potters. We know that Hagrid became Gamekeeper thanks to Dumbledore, and Dumbledore wasn't headmaster when Hagrid was expelled. When did he become headmaster? Here's Lupin giving us a clue: " "I as a very small boy when I received the bite......" "Before the Wolfsbane Potion was discovered, however, I became a fully fledged monster once a month. It seemed impossible that I would be able to come to Hogwarts. Other parents weren't likely to want their children exposed to me. But then Dumbledore became Headmaster, and he was sympathetic." So we can assume that Dumbledore became Headmaster when Lupin was between 6-10 years old. Probably when the Weasleys where finishing school themselves. He became Headmaster and he appointed Hagrid gamekeeper. I know he had talked Dippet to keep Hagrid, but he was being trained then. Nothing says he couldn't be there with Ogg, all these years, and become Gamekeeper once Ogg retired, that's it, when Dumbledore became Headmaster. A bit confusing, I'm sorry. "izaskun granda" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From yutu at wanadoo.es Fri Apr 18 23:15:32 2003 From: yutu at wanadoo.es (izaskun granda) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 01:15:32 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Question about the Bones Family References: Message-ID: <005001c30600$69bb38f0$3692253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 55641 Julie wrote: In canon, is it established that Voldemort killed Susan Bones' grandparents, or was it her parents? I'm fairly certain it is her grandparents, but for the life of me I cannot find the reference. Thanks in advance for any replies. Tom replied: The only passage I can recall that explicitly mentions the Bones family is in PS/SS, Ch.4, 55/56 (I'm using the US paperback.) Hagrid is explaining to Harry about Voldemort's reign of terror, upon their first meeting: "...No one ever lived after he decided to kill 'em, no one except you, an' he'd killed some o' the best witches an' wizards of the age - the McKinnons, the Bones, the Prewetts - an' you were only a baby, an' you lived." I can't find a specific reference to how (or even if) the Susan Bones in Hufflepuff of Harry's year is actually related to the Bones family that Hagrid mentions in that passage. Me: JKR said in an interview or a chat board that those Bones were Susan's granparents. "izaskun granda" Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From connie23 at iprimus.com.au Fri Apr 18 23:28:20 2003 From: connie23 at iprimus.com.au (Mac) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 23:28:20 -0000 Subject: The power of magic Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55642 Hi This is my first post to the list, so please forgive me if I am raising a previously aired subject, but it is one that interests me. What, in Rowling's universe, qualifies a wizard to be powerful? In most fantasy novels, a wizard's power tends to be a function of their ability to weild powerful spells. That is, the more powerful the wizard, the higher the "calibre" of the the ammunition s/he uses. Yet in Rowling's universe, the entire gammut of spells seems to be available to anyone, its just a matter of saying a couple of words. So if Dumbledore or Voldemort are the most powerful wizards of their time, what makes them so - more than, say, Hermione, with her focused intelligence and considerable drive? As I say, if it's been raised before, please feel free to consign it to the bin, but as one who enjoys writing as much as reading fantasy, its an interesting and relevant topic for me. Mac From flamingstarchows at att.net Sat Apr 19 02:08:28 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (FlamingStar Chows) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 21:08:28 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius's Vault (UK vs. US) References: <20030419003310.94578.qmail@web13001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005a01c30618$932baa40$3a14570c@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 55643 ----- Original Message ----- Angela Evans wrote: >For some time now I have been pondering the >matter of Sirius's vault 711. Lea : I've got the Bloomsbury edition here and it DEFINITELY spells out Vault 711... Does anyone have the US edition they can check? ----Me---- "I used your name but told them to take the gold from my own Gringotts vault." First Scholastic trade paperback printing, 2001 ~Cathy~ From devika at sas.upenn.edu Sat Apr 19 02:20:04 2003 From: devika at sas.upenn.edu (Devika) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 02:20:04 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Age (was:Re: DVD timeline mystery) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55644 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mongo62aa" wrote: > hp_lexicon wrote: > > Last night I spent some time updating the Lexicon's day-to-day > calendars of the first two books, integrating the DVD timeline a > little more closely with what was already there. I discovered > something very interesting. > > They have a date wrong. > > > > The big deal--and this is kind of weird--is that *I* had the date > wrong on my calendar. > > > > Now I suppose there's no reason why they couldn't have made the exact > same error. But I can't help but wonder how it happened that they > reproduced in their timeline the same error that was found in mine. > > Curious... > > Steve Vander Ark > The Harry Potter Lexicon > > > But that means that Hermione's 'official' age is now set in stone, > because of Steve's OPINION that she is younger than Harry. No > offence Steve, I idmire your work a great deal -- I simply feel that > it is much more logical for her to be older than Harry, given the UK > educational practices. > > As for why she would have approved this timeline, (with the one > modification to Tom Riddle's Hogwarts dates -- apparently necessary > for Tom to be able to spend some time under Grindelwald's tutelage) > well, we already know that JKR is not very comfortable with numbers > (i.e. the number of students at Hogwarts issue) and may have missed > the importance of that particular date to the fans. Or not. > I think that it's possible that WB used Steve's timeline as a model for theirs. If so, they should have given him credit for it. Whether or not they did use it, I think that Steve deserves a lot of praise for the work he put into the timeline and everything else in the Lexicon. As far as the reasons for JKR's approval of the timeline are concerned, the fact is that she *did* approve it. It is now official. I think that a lot of us forget that this is JKR's work first and foremost. The fact that we are obsessed fans does not mean that we have more information, or even as much information, than JKR does about the world that she created. Many people have said that JKR is not very comfortable with numbers based on her estimate of the Hogwarts population. Personally, I don't understand this reasoning. It does not take a mathematical genius to figure out a person's age. Surely the countless people on this list who have argued about Hermione's age can't all claim to be more "comfortable with numbers" than JKR. I know how much debate there has been about the number of students at Hogwarts, and JKR has made mistakes before, but that's no reason to say that she has definitely made a mistake this time. There could be any number of reasons for why JKR chose to give Hermione a September birthday and make her younger than Harry and Ron. Whatever the reason is, it is JKR's reason, and these are her books and her characters, after all. While many might disagree with it, there doesn't seem to be any compelling reason for why it is impossible. Whether or not WB and JKR used Steve's timeline as a model is irrelevant to the debate on Hermione's age. No one forced JKR to accept all of the dates in the timeline. If she had had any major reason to make Hermione 13, then it would not have been difficult for her to change that on the DVD timeline. If JKR verifies a timeline saying that Hermione turned 12 during her second year, then I'm inclined to believe it, regardless of what we think we know about JKR's mathematical abilities. Devika From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com Sat Apr 19 03:08:40 2003 From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 20:08:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DVD timeline mystery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030419030840.24166.qmail@web21106.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55645 Steve of The HP Lexicon, in part: > Now I suppose there's no reason > why they couldn't have made the > exact same error. But I can't help > but wonder how it happened that > they reproduced in their timeline > the same error that was found in > mine. > > Curious... Yes...VERY curious indeed! When you reconciled the timeline from the DVD and the timeline on the Lexicon, exactly what were the differences, if any? If there aren't any...I think you may 'owe' Warner Bros. an invoice for services rendered. Petra a n :) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From hp_lexicon at yahoo.com Sat Apr 19 03:42:08 2003 From: hp_lexicon at yahoo.com (hp_lexicon) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 03:42:08 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Age (was:Re: DVD timeline mystery) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55646 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Devika" wrote: > impossible. Whether or not WB and JKR used Steve's timeline as a > model is irrelevant to the debate on Hermione's age. No one forced > JKR to accept all of the dates in the timeline. If she had had any > major reason to make Hermione 13, then it would not have been > difficult for her to change that on the DVD timeline. If JKR > verifies a timeline saying that Hermione turned 12 during her second > year, then I'm inclined to believe it, For the record, it never says anything about Hermione's age on my timeline. That information is on other pages, but not on the timeline. Even if they did use the Lexicon as a timeline source, they would have had to intentionally add Hermione's age to it. It sounds like Rowling was going out of her way to answer one of the big fan questions. Darn nice of her, I say. Can't wait to see what she "casually mentions" in OoP...Bill's and Molly's ages, hopefully...Sinistra's gender...first names for Quirrell, Hooch, Sprout, etc... Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon From william.truderung at sympatico.ca Sat Apr 19 03:44:30 2003 From: william.truderung at sympatico.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 03:44:30 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Age (was:Re: DVD timeline mystery) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55647 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Devika" wrote: I think that it's possible that WB used Steve's timeline as a model for theirs. If so, they should have given him credit for it. Whether or not they did use it, I think that Steve deserves a lot of praise for the work he put into the timeline and everything else in the Lexicon. Me: Agreed. In fact, in a sense, Steve may now be a co-contributor to Harry Potter canon, if the Lexicon timeline was in fact approved by JKR as the 'official' version, as seems to be the case. Bill From william.truderung at sympatico.ca Sat Apr 19 03:50:54 2003 From: william.truderung at sympatico.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 03:50:54 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Age (was:Re: DVD timeline mystery) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55648 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hp_lexicon" wrote: > For the record, it never says anything about Hermione's age on my > timeline. That information is on other pages, but not on the > timeline. Even if they did use the Lexicon as a timeline source, > they would have had to intentionally add Hermione's age to it. It > sounds like Rowling was going out of her way to answer one of the > big fan questions. Darn nice of her, I say. Can't wait to see what > she "casually mentions" in OoP...Bill's and Molly's ages, > hopefully...Sinistra's gender...first names for Quirrell, Hooch, > Sprout, etc... > > Steve Vander Ark > The Harry Potter Lexicon I should have waited another minute to post my previous message, as I had not known this. Yes, it looks like JKR had added that information herself. I also hope that some of the other longstanding questions get answered in OotP. Steve, I'm sorry if I came off as hostile in my original post. Bill From hp_lexicon at yahoo.com Sat Apr 19 03:56:20 2003 From: hp_lexicon at yahoo.com (hp_lexicon) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 03:56:20 -0000 Subject: DVD timeline mystery In-Reply-To: <20030419030840.24166.qmail@web21106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55649 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Petra Pan wrote: > > When you reconciled the timeline from > the DVD and the timeline on the > Lexicon, exactly what were the > differences, if any? The difference was that I placed the opening of the Chamber of Secrets exactly fifty years before it was reopened by Ginny under the influence of TOm Riddle. They placed it 51 years before. It seems to me that there must have been some reason why the year was important. Since Dumbledore's defeat of Grindlewald happens shortly thereafter, it seems logical that the two events are related and a certain amount of time is necessary between them. The 1945 date is a given, so the Chamber opening had to be adjusted to fit. Everything else was the same, right down to the days. Even my error-- placing the tea with Hagrid on the 7th instead of the 6th--was included on the DVD timeline. Here's what Warner Bros. said, according to the Leaky Cauldron: "JKR reviewed the entire timeline, made notes on it, and then approved the final version..." It certainly looks like the "entire timeline" they are refering to was the one from the Lexicon, and that her notes were to adjust the dates of the opening of the Chamber and to add Hermione's age. Since Warner wasn't actually doing the research, just copying mine, they didn't realize that the September 7 date was an error I had made, and Rowling didn't notice it either because it was a fairly insignificant date. I wonder if there's any way to find out if that's what happened? Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon From hp_lexicon at yahoo.com Sat Apr 19 04:02:17 2003 From: hp_lexicon at yahoo.com (hp_lexicon) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 04:02:17 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Age (was:Re: DVD timeline mystery) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55650 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mongo62aa" wrote: > had not known this. Yes, it looks like JKR had added that > information herself. I also hope that some of the other longstanding > questions get answered in OotP. I misspoke myself a little. It does give Hermione's age on the timeline NOW. That's one of the things I added last night. But it didn't until last night. And I kept a copy of the old version with the date error on it, just in case. And another thing...If there's a printed-out copy of my timeline somewhere with JKR's handwritten notes on it, I WANT IT! Can you just imagine? (sigh) > > Steve, I'm sorry if I came off as hostile in my original post. Oh for goodness sakes! Not at all! You should hear some of the email I get. You'd think I was singlehandedly ruining Harry Potter for the world because I write the Lexicon. Go figure. Steve From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Sat Apr 19 04:52:37 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 04:52:37 -0000 Subject: Interview support for Spymaster!Dumbledore theorists out there. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55651 Hey All, I followed a link that was posted here recently to the CoS DVD interview that someone has been kind enough to transcribe on mugglenet.com. Here's the link, for any interested: http://www.mugglenet.com/cosdvdint.shtml Anyways, as I was reading along, JKR said something that struck me immediately as supporting many of the Spymaster!Dumbledore theories that exist out there, from Magic Dishwasher and all of its eclectic spinoffs to others that I haven't gotten to yet. I figured everyone who likes that sort of stuff, and almost everyone hanging out in the Safe House might appreciate the quote on its own. "Steve" is Steve Kloves, the screenwriter for the films, and he's talking about revealing information through characters. So, without further ado: Steve: Well, I like writing all three, but I've always loved writing Hermione. Because, she's just one... she's a tremendous character for a lot of reasons to a writer, one being she can carry exposition in a wonderful way because you just assume she read it in a book. JKR: Very true, I find that all the time in the books, if you need to tell the readers something just put it in her. There's really only two characters that you can put it convincingly into their dialogue: One is Hermione, the other one is Dumbledore. In both cases you accept, it's plausible that they have, well Dumbledore knows pretty much everything that's going on anyway... but with Hermione that she read it in a book. She's really handy that way. "Well, Dumbledore knows pretty much everything that's going on anyway..." Hmmm. Could be applied in *SO* many exciting ways. ;-) Enjoy, Tom From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com Sat Apr 19 05:36:11 2003 From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 22:36:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DVD timeline mystery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030419053611.97388.qmail@web21101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55652 [any replies should go to the movie list http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Movie/] Steve of the Lexicon, in part: > It certainly looks like the "entire > timeline" they are refering to > was the one from the Lexicon, and > that her notes were to adjust the > dates of the opening of the Chamber > and to add Hermione's age. Since > Warner wasn't actually doing the > research, just copying mine, they > didn't realize that the September 7 > date was an error I had made, and > Rowling didn't notice it either > because it was a fairly > insignificant date. > > I wonder if there's any way to find > out if that's what happened? Hmm...if Warner Bros. (or more accurately, someone assigned to produce that particular DVD feature) indeed did not actually do any research and just copied your timeline, I don't know if you'd have any luck finding someone official to admit that the scenario you described above indeed is what came to pass. One, Warner Home Video didn't credit you (they definitely didn't ask for your permission or compensate you, right?) so it's probable that SOMEone else got the credit (and the paycheck) for doing the research. Two, if WHV admits that they paid and credited someone else who essentially plagiarized your work (who in turn didn't bother to fact check carefully enough to weed out your mistake), then they may become concerned about opening a can of worms for themselves. If indeed you are looking for a can opener let me know; I might be able to help get you some essential info (names and ph. numbers and the like). But I'd guess that this will go nowhere unless you are willing and able to press the issue. Petra, awaiting at the movie list a n :) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Apr 19 05:59:03 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 05:59:03 -0000 Subject: Molly & Arthur's ages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55653 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall" wrote: > > I personally lean towards Molly and Arthur being older than Hagrid, > and Hagrid being older than Lucius, as a natural first reaction to > the text. But, it also bears mention that Molly and Arthur do have > a familiarity with Hagrid that is interesting, as we see from CoS: > > ...edited... > > Oh well - just figured I'd throw all that in. ;-) > > -Tom bboy_mn: Well, I am glad that somebody agrees with me about Molly and Arthur's age. Regarding the Weasley's familiarity with Hagrid, Hagrid has been at Hogwarts for over 50 years, everybody is familiar with Hagrid, he is like an institution in the wizard world. All wizards and witches to graduate from Hogwarts in the last 50 years know who he is, and now all their kids know who he is. As far as the Weasley's, I think having 7 kids at Hogwarts in the last 20 years, especially 7 outstanding kids, has given the Weasley an above average familiarity with Hagrid. I would even go so far as to call them friends. What is missing is any reference to a familiarity that originates while they were all at Hogwarts school together. Without this 'school years' familiarity, I have to concluded that Molly and Arthur were there before Hagrid. Tom made his point very well, and I don't dispute the point he made. But the critical familiarity ties them all together at school, and I don't see it. Just a thought. bboyu_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Apr 19 06:08:01 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 06:08:01 -0000 Subject: Molly & Arthur's ages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55654 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eillim022861" wrote: > 'Steve' wrote in relation to the post from 'aja_1991' who argued > that Molly and Arthur could be younger than Hagrid. > > >`There is one thing lacking to make me support your position, and > >that is a lack of familiarity with Hagrid. Based on that, I say her > >age pre-dates Hagrid. ...edited... > > My view: > I think that Molly and Arthur are younger than Hagrid, mainly > because I don't see him being expelled and then suddenly being > gamekeeper. > bboy_mn: Whether he was gamekeeper or not doesn't change the fact that he was there and actively working even if only as an apprentice. > `aja1991' comments > >`let's take in to account the possibility that a 13 year old > >boy (Hagrid) might not become gamekeeper right away, but need some > >kind of tutelage'. > > My view > I also think that in view of the situation that Hagrid had to leave > Hogwarts, I feel that he would keep his head down and not draw > attention to himself, particulary with Riddle still there. > ...edited... > > eillim (who believes that Snape is on the side of good) bboy_mn: No matter how low a profile he kept, Hagrid and the students are trapped on Hogwarts ground 10 straight months out of the year. I find it impossible to believe that the students didn't notice a 9 or 10 foot tall man wandering around the grounds. Even if Hagrid avoided associating with the students, the students who did know him would pass his identity down to the newly arrived students. As curious as kids are I find it impossible for anyone going to school there to not know Hagrid was there and to know his name. Again, when he became gamekeep is irrelevant, he was there, and extremely hard not to notice. Just a thought. bboy_mn From lupinesque at yahoo.com Sat Apr 19 08:23:01 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 08:23:01 -0000 Subject: The power of magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55655 Mac wrote (Welcome, Mac!): > What, in Rowling's universe, qualifies a wizard to be powerful? > > In most fantasy novels, a wizard's power tends to be a function of > their ability to weild powerful spells. That is, the more powerful > the wizard, the higher the "calibre" of the the ammunition s/he > uses. Yet in Rowling's universe, the entire gammut of spells seems > to be available to anyone, its just a matter of saying a couple of > words. So if Dumbledore or Voldemort are the most powerful wizards > of their time, what makes them so - more than, say, Hermione, with > her focused intelligence and considerable drive? I think Hermione may well become as powerful as Dumbledore and Voldemort in time. It isn't just a matter of saying a couple of words, or else the kids could just memorize vocabulary lists and they'd be able to do all those advanced things like make their nose hair grow into ringlets. Hermione *does* learn things out of books ("Alohomora!"), but it takes work beyond learning the words, and I think it takes more than what we might call "natural ability" as well. Hermione's a natural; so, it seems, is Harry, at least at some kinds of magic. But it's more than that, and more than the swishing and flicking they learn in class as well. Elements like concentration, intention, a certain emotional state, and even a certain moral orientation all seem to play into it. E.g., you can't just say "Riddikulus" in a firm voice and make a Boggart go away. You have to have your mind fixed on something amusing in the midst of terror, and that basically means you have to conquer your own fear. Making magic also expends energy, which crops up in other fantasy works, but I agree with Terry Pratchett (who parodies the concept) that it is not a simple equation: Lumos takes 100 kcal, conjuring a Patronus takes 10,000 kcal, that kind of thing. I look for moral and psychological depth in a book, so the way magic grows out of these qualities in HP is very compelling to me. I hope we see a lot more of this. I'm curious what you (Mac) think. Amy Z From catlady at wicca.net Sat Apr 19 09:12:50 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 09:12:50 -0000 Subject: QuidditchSeeker/Equinox/HarryRiddle/GryffNeville/VoldSex/MuggleInvent/Animagi Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55656 Katy Cartee wrote: << But pretend that the picture depicted Harry reading the book "Pride and Prejudice" and had a caption underneath it stating "Harry, reading his favorite book." >> But surely Harry's FAVORITE book is the copy of FLYING WITH THE CANNONS that Ron gave him! "izaskun granda" asked: << why did the Slytherins use Malfoy's injured arm as an excuse not to play the match in PoA? Or still better. Why didn't Wood ask for a few more days till his seeker was totally recovered?? >> The Slyth-Gryff match was scheduled to be the first match of the season, so it could swap dates with another match without messing up the schedule. By swapping with the Puff-Gryff match (or the Claw-Gryff match), possibly no one except the Slyth and Puff players themselves had to know about the swap in advance, maybe not even their Heads of House. I am under the impression that the match that Harry missed was scheduled to be the last match of the season, so there was NO other match to swap with. Barb psychic_serpent wrote: << The autumnal equinox (snip) (Although numerous sources I looked up put it on September 22, not 21. >> The solstices and equinoces don't fall on exactly the same calendar dates every year. Each year, the date/time is a little bit later in September until leap-year is puts it back again. I care so much about this that I've spent one hour Web searching, and found this nice equinox calculator: http://www.hermetic.ch/cal_sw/ve/ve.php , which gives September 22 and September 23 as the dates of the Autumn Equinoces from 1980 to 2000, even tho' I am *convinced* that I remember it falling on September 21 and 20. Barb psychic_serpent wrote: << If she'd said ahead of time that we were going to see a Weasley cousin in GoF and then we discovered that we got Rita instead, I'd just think she'd changed her mind and decided that Rita worked better. >> IIRC, she DID tell Lizo (of Newsround) ahead of time that we were going to see a Weasley cousin in GoF. He asked her (again on Newsround) where was the promised cousin, and she explained about having to fix the plot hole. Audra wrote: << That's why the name "Riddle" sounds familiar to Harry. Riddle is a Muggle name, hence someone on Harry's maternal (Muggle) side of the family. >> I automatically assumed, and have not yet had reason to change my mind, that Harry's faint familiarity with the name Tom Riddle came to him the same way his Parselmouth did: transplanted from Lord Voldemort. "graniteworks" wrote: << [Neville Longbottom] doesn't really seem to have the bravery that Godric Gryffindor honored. >> Read Hobbit-Guy's fic: http://www.thedarkarts.org/authors/hobbit_guy/SAL.html for an explanation of Sorting Neville aja_1991 wrote: << (I can't help but think that the evil Voldemort feels and acts on sensations of lust in some way). >> Lust for cruelty, certainly. And lust for power. But I believe that TMR/Voldemort (lost/gave up) all sexual desire and sexual organs when he switched to that scaley, noseless snake-man form. And that he switched to snake-man during his experiments in search of immortality, maybe as the side-effect of the successful experiment. >From the re-embodying diary being, he doesn't seem to have been all that interested in sex even when he was 16, still human, and good enough at charming people that he could have been quite the seducer. Or (h'mm) maybe he only put parts of himself that were relevant to finding the basilisk and siccing it on Muggle-born students into the diary, omitting sexuality and sports and maybe some actual friend- ships with those few friends who knew his secret name ... that would explain why the TMR character seems SUCH a psychopath ... "silly_mr_wiggles" wrote: << Is it just me or does it seem a bit odd that Hagrid, a half giant and a wizard, has a muggle weapon like a crossbow? It seemed to me that the wizarding world had made its way without muggle inventons, especially because Mr. Weasly was so facinated with them. >> Muggle inventions eventually make their way to the wizarding world: the Hogwarts Express is copied from Muggle steam trains, Wizarding Wireless is copied from Muggle wireless (UK word for 'radio'). I suppose the knowledge of these Muggle inventions is brought to the wizarding world by Muggle-born wizards and witches who grew up with them. << Do you think animagi can turn into magical creatures? >> I believe that Animagi cannot turn into magical creatures, which is why I do not share the widespread belief that Dumbledore is a Phoenix Animagus. But I'm pretty confused about what non-magical animals an Animagus might turn into -- for example, the first time of transforming into a fish seems likely to be fatal, via drowning in air. Even if the books advise practising beside a body of water until you know what form you will take, the water is either fresh or salt and many fish cannot survive in the wrong kind. How about turning into a Tyranosaurus? A moa? A passenger pigeon? From the_fox01 at hotmail.com Sat Apr 19 02:34:32 2003 From: the_fox01 at hotmail.com (The Fox) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 22:34:32 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco's siblings? (was Re: Who knows Tom Riddle is Voldemort Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55657 From: "Alexandra Y. Kwan" >herm - own - ninny wrote: >>for the life of me remember who). They said something like: Draco has all >>the bad qualities of the baby in the family, implying that he is likely to >>have an older sibling. Whoever said this, can you elaborate? This seems >>like a really interesting idea, so I'd love to hear your theory on it. > >Well, it could also just be the 'only child' syndrome. In fact, I have a >lot of those qualities, even though I'm the elder of two children. Then >again, I was pretty spoiled before my parents had my younger sister. > >Back to Draco, which specific qualities? :-) It was me, and I said Draco has all the worst qualities of both only children *and* babies-of-the-family, and none of the best ones, which makes me suspect he's one of those kids who's younger by quite a long way -- like ten or eleven years. (Stay tuned for fictional exploration of this. [g]) As for which qualities: he's spoiled rotten, I believe you'll agree. Has a sense of entitlement a mile wide. Needs, apparently on some visceral level, to be the center of attention. All of this, I agree, screams "only child" more than "youngest child" -- but in addition to expecting to be fawned upon by adults, he expects to be the center of attention among other children, as well. He reacts very badly when Harry declines to be his friend, for example, and doesn't do at all well when Goyle (or is it Crabbe?) speaks up (granted that it's either Harry or Ron doing the speaking, but Draco doesn't know that). In CoS, which I don't have in front of me, he complains to his father that his grades are as low as they are because the teachers have favorites, specifically naming Hermione. And in PoA, when his arm is in the sling, he plays Snape like a stringed instrument in the making-Ron-shred-his-daisy-roots incident. This is a kid who knows how to relate to other kids -- to his greatest advantage. That's a youngest child (of several), if I'm any judge. Let me just be very clear that, although I'm an eldest (of two, by three years) myself, I know many, many youngest children (my own brother among them) who are in no way obnoxious, and many more who are obnoxious but not for reasons traceable to birth order. :-) Also, many only children who are happy, well-adjusted, etc. I just happen to think Draco Malfoy isn't such a person. Fox _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From JessaDrow at aol.com Sat Apr 19 11:46:28 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 07:46:28 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius's Vault (UK vs. US) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55658 In a message dated 4/18/03 8:49:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, devika at sas.upenn.edu writes: > >I've got the Bloomsbury edition here and it DEFINITELY spells out > Vault 711... Does anyone have the US edition they can check? > > > I've the american edition and it doesn't mention the vault number in Black's letter. Is there much difference between the two editions? I'd hate to think I'm missing out on important stuff. ~Faith~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From william.truderung at sympatico.ca Sat Apr 19 14:46:41 2003 From: william.truderung at sympatico.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 14:46:41 -0000 Subject: Molly & Arthur's ages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55659 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > What is missing is any reference to a familiarity that originates > while they were all at Hogwarts school together. Without this 'school > years' familiarity, I have to concluded that Molly and Arthur were > there before Hagrid. > > Tom made his point very well, and I don't dispute the point he made. > But the critical familiarity ties them all together at school, and I > don't see it. > > Just a thought. > > bboyu_mn Looking at the dates provided by the Lexicon, I conclude that Molly left Hogwarts before Hagrid was hired as groundskeeper. Here is why: According to the Lexicon, Charlie Weasley was born in 1967, and Bill Weasley sometime before that -- say, 1966 at the latest. Allowing at least a year for marriage and pregnancy, Molly would have finished Hogwarts by 1965 at the latest. This is corroborated by the fact that the Whomping Willow was not there when she attended Hogwarts (planted for Remus Lupin in 1971). When Remus was bitten, 1965 or 1966, and for some unknown, but not short, time afterward, werewolves were not allowed to attend Hogwarts. Remus states: "But then Dumbledore became Headmaster, and he was sympathetic. He said that, as long as we took certain precautions, there was no reason I shouldn't come to school..." So Dumbledore became Headmaster sometime between 1966 and 1971. Dumbledore was the ONLY one who believed in Hagrid's innocence, and he was the one who hired Hagrid as groundskeeper, replacing Ogg. Since Remus and Sirius never mention Ogg, I believe that Hagrid was hired as groundskeeper sometime in the late 1960s. Given that nobody else on staff believed in his innocence, I very much doubt that he was working at Hogwarts as 'assistant groundskeeper' before that time. So, Molly left Hogwarts by 1964 at the latest, while Hagrid was hired by Dumbledore sometime in the late 1960s, so Molly would have only known Ogg as groundskeeper. This is corroborated in Molly's stories about Ogg, which never mention Hagrid. Bill From meboriqua at aol.com Sat Apr 19 14:49:47 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 14:49:47 -0000 Subject: The power of magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55660 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z" wrote: > >Elements like concentration, intention, a certain emotional state, and even a certain moral orientation all seem to play into it. E.g., you can't just say "Riddikulus" in a firm voice and make a Boggart go away. You have to have your mind fixed on something amusing in the midst of terror, and that basically means you have to conquer your own fear. > Making magic also expends energy, which crops up in other fantasy works, but I agree with Terry Pratchett (who parodies the concept) that it is not a simple equation: Lumos takes 100 kcal, conjuring a Patronus takes 10,000 kcal, that kind of thing.> I agree with Amy here. There are a number of examples in HP that show us how much work it takes to effectively use magic. In class, the students have trouble turning one object into another. They need to practice and focus numerous times to get things right. Fake!Moody also told his students that the Avada Kedavra curse wouldn't work if they tried it, but he was able to do it. Sirius is also able to turn into a dog without a wand, which is pretty impressive, IMO. There are even times when Harry is able to perform magic without a wand, ballooned Aunt Marge being an example of that. Any books I've read or tv shows I've seen dealing with magic always stress the work witches/wizards have to put into their craft. On the show "Charmed", the sisters' magical abilities grow over time and the sisters have to learn to control them. On "Buffy", Willow's powers drain when she uses them too much. HP is similar in that students enter Hogwarts not knowing much, but learn spells, charms, hexes, and even curses through practice, exams, and focus. I would say that their classes even help them learn how to focus and harness their emotions, which is the key to powerful magic. --jenny from ravenclaw ****************** From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Sat Apr 19 15:40:37 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 11:40:37 EDT Subject: Prefects Who Gained Power Message-ID: <177.194e3884.2bd2c7f5@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55661 I cannot remember which book this is in (I'm not at my house, so ya know) but Percy was reading a book in Diagon Alley called "Prefects Who Gained Power". Is there any chance that any of the people we know were in that book? We know James and Lily were Prefects (am I right? Do you have to be a Prefect before Head Boy/Girl? I'm not familiar with the system...) and Tom Riddle was one in his time. Would they be in this book? ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ In order to know virtue we must first acquaint ourselves with vice. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From patricia at obscure.org Sat Apr 19 16:31:30 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 12:31:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco's siblings? (was Re: Who knows Tom Riddle is Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55662 On Fri, 18 Apr 2003, The Fox wrote: > It was me, and I said Draco has all the worst qualities of both only > children *and* babies-of-the-family, and none of the best ones, which makes > me suspect he's one of those kids who's younger by quite a long way -- like > ten or eleven years. (Stay tuned for fictional exploration of this. [g]) > This is a kid who knows how to > relate to other kids -- to his greatest advantage. That's a youngest child > (of several), if I'm any judge. The thing is, though, that if he is younger than his siblings by 10 or more years, he wouldn't have had much chance to relate to them as peers. By the time he was old enough to interact with them they would be off at school for most of the year. And in my experience, most people I've known with siblings that much older treat them more like secondary parents than like fellow kids. So being younger by a decade or more would make him act like an only child for most practical purposes, and it wouldn't really explain his ability to manipulate his classmates. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Sat Apr 19 17:39:22 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 13:39:22 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius's Vault (UK vs. US) Message-ID: <1db.7dfd289.2bd2e3ca@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55663 > ----- Original Message ----- > Angela Evans wrote: > >For some time now I have been pondering the >matter of Sirius's vault 711. > > > Lea : > I've got the Bloomsbury edition here and it DEFINITELY spells out Vault > 711... Does anyone have the US edition they can check? > > ----Me---- > "I used your name but told them to take the gold from my own Gringotts > vault." > > First Scholastic trade paperback printing, 2001 > > ~Cathy~ It doesn't give the vault number in the US Edition (as shown by Cathy's excellent quoting). This is something I've been wondering about since I first heard it was in the UK edition. Will this be important or is it just passing information (which I don't believe occurs in the Potterverse)? If it *is* important then us Americans will be slightly put out because we misssed a big clue.... Is its proximity to Vault 713 important at all? ========================================= ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ "Now it's time to say goodbye to our seniors of '03 C-I-N - never come back D-E-R - really, we're not kidding E-L-L-A!" ~ PTHS Class of 2004's song to the departing Drama Guild seniors (to the tune of that Mickey Mouse song) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kristen at sanderson-web.com Sat Apr 19 18:57:26 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (GKJPO) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 18:57:26 -0000 Subject: Prefects Who Gained Power In-Reply-To: <177.194e3884.2bd2c7f5@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55664 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, SnapesSlytherin at a... wrote: > I cannot remember which book this is in (I'm not at my house, so ya know) but > Percy was reading a book in Diagon Alley called "Prefects Who Gained Power". > Is there any chance that any of the people we know were in that book? We > know James and Lily were Prefects (am I right? Do you have to be a Prefect > before Head Boy/Girl? I'm not familiar with the system...) and Tom Riddle > was one in his time. Would they be in this book? That was in Chamber of Secrets. The book has never been mentioned again and therefore, we cannot tell if we know anyone in there yet. I would guess that many of the folks we hear about at the Ministry are mentioned like Crouch and Fudge (and very possibly James). However, I believe it was mentioned to further illustrate Percy's ambition. There have been many hints that Percy has a lot of thirst for power and success. This was somewhat realized in GoF where he followed around Mr. Crouch. We have yet to see how Mr. Crouch's demise affected him, but I think his ambition still has a part to play before he realizes how important his family is. Kristen (who doesn't think Percy is bad, just easily blinded) From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Sat Apr 19 20:58:27 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 20:58:27 -0000 Subject: The power of magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55665 Mac wrote: What, in Rowling's universe, qualifies a wizard to be powerful? In most fantasy novels, a wizard's power tends to be a function of their ability to weild powerful spells. That is, the more powerful the wizard, the higher the "calibre" of the the ammunition s/he uses. Yet in Rowling's universe, the entire gammut of spells seems to be available to anyone, its just a matter of saying a couple of words. So if Dumbledore or Voldemort are the most powerful wizards of their time, what makes them so - more than, say, Hermione, with her focused intelligence and considerable drive? END QUOTE. I reply: Welcome to the list, Mac! I agree with Amy and Jenny here on the amount of concentration and practice required to successfully use magic in the WW. However, I'd like to add my own thoughts as well. ;-) IMHO, in addition to practice, wizards do seem to be powerful/talented *in a certain subject,* and less talented in other subjects, just the way I'd describe us muggles when it comes to our own learning. So, basically I'd say that everyone has a predisposition towards a certain kind of magic or magical training. Also IMHO, the wizards that are considered to be the uber-powerful are the ones that appear to be the most well-rounded of them all. A few citations from canon that indicate this to me: Lily Potter's wand, we are told by Ollivander, was well suited to Charms: "You have your mother's eyes. It seems only yesterday that she was in here herself, buying her first wand. Ten and a quarter inches long, swishy, made of willow. Nice wand for charm work." (PS/SS, US paperback, Ch.5, 82) James Potter had a wand that was suited to Transfiguration: "Your father, on the other hand, favored a mahogany wand. Eleven inches. Pliable. A little more power and excellent for transfiguration." (PS/SS, US paperback, Ch.5, 82) Using both of these quotes is only helpful when Ollivander states, after talking about James' wand, that "Well, I say your father favored it ? it's really the wand that chooses the wizard, of course." (PS/SS, US paperback, Ch.5, 82) From this, I gather that if Lily's wand selected her, and James' selected him, then they were probably good at what their wands were useful for, i.e. James at Transfiguration, and Lily at Charms. Granted, this could be an erroneous assumption, but that's how I'm reasoning here, just so's ya know. ;-) Neville, we know, is particularly good at Herbology. "Apparently, Professor Sprout told Professor Moody I'm really good at Herbology." (GoF, Ch.14, 220) And Neville provides wonderful contrast there, since he is so gawd-awful at Potions and mediocre at so many other subjects. ;-) Even our favorite dunderhead Gilderoy Lockhart has demonstrated his own skill at Memory Charms: "If there's one thing I pride myself on, it's my Memory Charms." (CoS, Ch.16, 298) And we can assume that they work, since he admits to the theft of all of his adventures and achievements from others, and no one seems to have disputed his claims, at least not publicly. Mulciber, one of the dead Death Eaters, was described by Karkaroff as being particularly good at the Imperius Curse in GoF, Ch.30, 590: "he specialized in the Imperius Curse, forced countless people to do horrific things!" Hermione has shown herself to be astute at a broad variety of spells and subjects, but I'm not sure that she's exhibited one particular strength over another. Point for discussion, I'd guess, especially considering the other thread going on right now about "Hermione's Magical Power." Oh, oh, wait, except this: Hermione does seem to have difficulty when it comes to subjects that require more than book smarts, such as Divination... but this is a common idea. So here we have the contrast that we have ala Neville... except Hermione is way better at way more stuff than Neville is. As Finwitch pointed out in that other thread (Hermione's Magical Power): "Well - she's excellent at learning from books. If a spell - like riddiculus - requires something you just can't learn from books, she fails." That's an interesting point, that she isn't able to figure out in PoA, (again, US paperback,) Ch.16, 319, that the "McGonagall" she was facing (who told her she failed everything) was actually a boggart. Of course, Hermione sympathizers might want to give her the benefit of the doubt here, since she clearly overtaxed herself in the novel and did have more finals than the others. IMHO she deserves that benefit. ;-) Harry, IMO, seems to have a very powerful unfocused, natural magic, which works best for him in times of great stress and emotion, such as in PoA, Ch.21, 411 when he summons his powerful Patronus. As Pipsqueak points out (way long ago in message #40044) he might in some cases even be better off without his wand. We see numerous examples of this, from the insistent growth of Harry's tousled hair (PS/SS, p21 & 24) to the release of the Boa in PS/SS, Ch.2, 28; to the inflation of Aunt Marge in PoA, Ch.2, 29; to (again, as Pip points out) Harry's uncanny ability to dodge spells. Not to say that with practice, Harry can't master any spell, but just to point out that great stress seems to bring out the best in him, IMHO. And I personally believe that Harry's skill at Quidditch is directly related to his magical abilities. This isn't canon yet, but I think it's not a coincidence that three of the four champions in the Triwizard Tournament were great Quidditch players (and maybe Fleur was too - but we aren't told.) Now, Dumbledore and Voldemort strike me as the two most powerful wizards we see in the series, and that's backed up by more than the fact that both are the leaders of their separate factions. More importantly, it also appears to me that both are quite good at a large variety of spells, i.e. they may have specialties, but they're good at most stuff, and have powerful inherent magic that doesn't require spells, necessarily. It also is interesting that we have sources *other* than the wizards themselves who cite their power. Dumbledore is cited repeatedly, by Hagrid, Harry, and many others. One example, from the Famous Witches and Wizards Trading Cards: "Considered by many the greatest wizard of modern times, Dumbledore is particularly famous for his defeat of the dark wizard Grindelwald in 1945..." (PS/SS, Ch.6, 103) Voldemort's citation comes, interestingly enough, from Dumbledore himself: "Of course, he was probably the most brilliant student Hogwarts has ever seen." (CoS, US paperback, Ch.18, 329) As far as Dumbledore's magic, we see him do a lot of things quite effortlessly, without even the aid of a wand or an incantation. We see him (I think) cast the Patronus Charm during PoA, Ch.9 when Harry falls during the Quidditch game. We see the effects of a powerful Age- Line that Dumbledore has cast in GoF, Ch.16, 260, which isn't fooled even by Aging Potions. Without the help of incantations, we watched Dumbledore `draw up' a chair for Trelawney in PoA, Ch.11, 228; we've seen him change the decorations in the Great Hall with a clap of his hands in PS/SS Ch.17, 306; and we've seen him, with a "casual wave of his wand," first sweep all of the tables in the Great Hall to the sides of the room, and then summon enough sleeping bags for the whole student body in PoA, Ch.9, 163. Most interestingly, Harry notices twice in GoF that "a sense of power radiated from Dumbledore as though he were giving off burning heat." (GoF, US paperback, Ch.35, 679, and later in Ch.36 "The Parting of the Ways." This suggests strong natural abilities to me, that perhaps no amount of study could manifest. Voldemort's magic we see less of, and the fact that he uses the Unforgiveables so frequently is, I believe, misleading in reference to his overall power. He does seem to use the same spells over and over again, but Moody explains to us that these curses, and in particular Avada Kedavra, require "a powerful bit of magic behind it ? you could all get your wands out now and point them at me and say the words, and I doubt that I'd get so much as a nosebleed." (GoF, Ch.14, 217) We know that Voldemort can invent his own spells from GoF, Ch.33, 656 ("a spell or two of my own invention.") And we've seen him, like Dumbledore with the chair, `draw up' a functioning hand for Pettigrew out of thin air: "Voldemort raised his wand again and whirled it through the air. A streak of what looked like molten silver hung shining in the wand's wake. Momentarily shapeless, it writhed, and then formed itself into a gleaming replica of a human hand, bright as moonlight, which soared downward and fixed itself upon Pettigrew's bleeding wrist." (GoF, Ch.33, 649) The difference for me with this ability is that Voldemort's hand becomes a *functioning* hand, whereas the chair just sits there. Not to imply that Albus *couldn't* do it, just that we haven't seen him do it. ;-) In other words, both of our leaders can use magic without wands and incantations, which, in my guess, has something to do with channeling magical energy, rather than simply casting a predetermined spell. I'm requoting Mac here. He wrote: "Yet in Rowling's universe, the entire gammut of spells seems to be available to anyone, its just a matter of saying a couple of words." I reply: I'll have to disagree with that, because we know of several types of magic that are not available to everyone, due to the complexity of the magic. First, we have the spells that transform a wizard into an animagus: "Your father and Sirius here were the cleverest students in the school, and lucky they were, because the Animagus transformation can go horribly wrong ? one reason the Ministry keeps a close watch on those attempting to do it." (PoA, US paperback, Ch.18, 354) And, we also have Apparation, which both requires a test and also is still something that many do not attempt because of its difficulty: "Why can't we Apparate too?" "Because you're not of age and you haven't passed your test," snapped Mrs. Weasley. (GoF, US paperback, Ch.6, 66) and: "You don't mess around with Apparition. There are plenty of adult wizards who don't bother with it. Prefer brooms ? slower, but safer." (GoF, US paperback, Ch.6, 67) ? Arthur Weasley On Apparition, we even know that Charlie Weasley failed his test the first time that he took it. So we can conclude that it's not an easy test to pass for all wizards. And then, we also have certain other spells that are difficult, such as the Patronus Charm, about which Professor Lupin says: "But I must warn you, Harry, that the charm might be too advanced for you. Many qualified wizards have difficulty with it." (PoA, US paperback, Ch.12, 237) So, what I see from all this is that whether or not a wizard has certain predispositions towards certain kinds of magic, there are still many spells that are too complicated for other wizards. In other words, specialties or not, some people just can't cut it with the more complex spells. Anyways, just my two knuts. ;-) -Tom From bard7696 at aol.com Sat Apr 19 21:44:44 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 21:44:44 -0000 Subject: So, what DID Snape do at the end of GoF? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55666 Just finished re-reading all the books and may do so again before OoP arrives, but I find myself once again pondering what Snape did, on Dumbledore's orders, at the end of GoF? He returned safely, to look at Harry strangely at the Leaving Feast. The obvious answer is that he made contact with the Death Eaters and V-Mort again, to resume his role as a spy for D-Dore. Assuming that V-Mort doesn't know for sure that Snape was a spy to begin with, Snape shouldn't be one of those former DEs on the outs. After all, he's been the head of Slytherin house and presumably molding future DEs in that role, and V-Mort would want him to stay there, IF he thought Snape was still with him. But V-Mort at least suspects Snape's treachery. Here's a non-obvious answer. He made contact, not with V-Mort, not with Lucius, not with Karakoff and not with his second cousin, Vlad Dracula. But with Narcissa Malfoy. I have long liked the idea of the weak link in the Malfoy family -- as far as not being as evil as the rest -- is Narcissa. And I like the idea of Snape and Narcissa once being an item. Any other theories? The idea of him re-spying is just so... obvious that I instinctively rail against it. By the way, I'm back... I see Jenny is still here and I heard from my old sparring partner Elkins the other day. Any of the other old crowd still around? What are the hot topics? To introduce myself, I'm Darrin. I like Gryffindor, heroes and believe Hermione and Ron belong together. I dislike Slytherin, apologies for Draco and attempts to introduce sexual symbolism into the books. Darrin -- Maybe Narcissa calls Snape, "Sevey." From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Sat Apr 19 22:56:44 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 22:56:44 -0000 Subject: So, what DID Snape do at the end of GoF? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55667 Darrin wrote: Here's a non-obvious answer. He made contact, not with V-Mort, not with Lucius, not with Karakoff and not with his second cousin, Vlad Dracula. But with Narcissa Malfoy. I have long liked the idea of the weak link in the Malfoy family -- as far as not being as evil as the rest -- is Narcissa. And I like the idea of Snape and Narcissa once being an item. I reply: Oooh, deliciously disgusting. Darrin wrote: Any other theories? The idea of him re-spying is just so... obvious that I instinctively rail against it. I reply: Well, I can't take credit for this, because I read it on mugglenet.com last night and it struck me as something that I hadn't heard before. But, I'll be fair and admit that it could have been posted here previously. I'm just not aware of it, if it has been. Anyways: "It doesn't mention in GoF that Voldemort even knows that Barty Crouch Jr. is dead, maybe Snape will take the polyjuice potion and impersonate Crouch Jr." --submitted by `The #1 HP fan' on www.mugglenet.com This strikes me as very, very possible, especially since we don't really know what happens to people who suffer from the Kiss of Death, except that the resulting state is `worse than death,' and that the person's soul is sucked out of the body. But JKR conveniently never tells us if the body actually dies from the process. Perhaps the body is kept alive in some kind of weird limbo state or something, and in that case, Snape will have an endless supply of hairs and other body parts to use in a polyjuice potion. Now, whether or not Snape could effectively pull this off, however, is a totally different discussion. And the other thing is: we really *aren't* told that Voldemort knows about this happening to Crouch, Jr.. And we have no canon to suggest that Voldemort has a magical way of knowing about BCJ's state of being - it appears to me that he got most of his information from Wormtail and BCJ as well. All the same, it is one of the more interesting ideas that I've read... and our being in the dark on what the Kiss of Death does to the body itself leaves interesting possibilities. Incidentally, I completely agree with you on Snape respying `as Snape' ? that seems like the lamest possible idea, IMHO, simply because this is what seems like the most obvious course of action for Snape to take. -Tom From bard7696 at aol.com Sat Apr 19 23:19:45 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 23:19:45 -0000 Subject: So, what DID Snape do at the end of GoF? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55668 Tom, quoting muggle.net. wrote: > Anyways: > "It doesn't mention in GoF that Voldemort even knows that Barty > Crouch Jr. is dead, maybe Snape will take the polyjuice potion and > impersonate Crouch Jr." > --submitted by `The #1 HP fan' on www.mugglenet.com And then wrote: > This strikes me as very, very possible, especially since we don't > really know what happens to people who suffer from the Kiss of > Death, except that the resulting state is `worse than death,' and > that the person's soul is sucked out of the body. But JKR > conveniently never tells us if the body actually dies from the > process. Perhaps the body is kept alive in some kind of weird limbo > state or something, and in that case, Snape will have an endless > supply of hairs and other body parts to use in a polyjuice potion. > Now, whether or not Snape could effectively pull this off, however, > is a totally different discussion. At work without my books, but I am sure that Lupin told Harry in PoA that a Dementor's Kiss is NOT fatal. The person just stays there. Presumably, he or she could be kept alive if the goal was Polyjuicing. My problem with this theory is that Dumbledore tells Snape. "You know what I must ask you to do. Are you ready?" That indicates a long-held contingency plan between those two, instead of something cooked up on the spot, once it was realized Barty Crouch was alive and in their midst. (Granted, it was probably phrased this way so Harry, and by extension, us poor readers, would wonder for three years what the hell was going on, but I'm not going to metathink on my first day back.) Secondly, how would Snape explain his absence while he's Crouch? Or would he bounce back and forth between the two personas? Very hard to pull off, as you said. Remember, Snape showed back up for the feast and we have no indication that he won't be Potions Master in OoP Other theories: * Snape has been collecting blackmail materials on all the parents of his little Slytherin boys and girls and now he has to start calling in the markers. * As Hagrid is envoy to the giants, Snape is envoy to the vampires * We know that OoP involves a scene where Dumbledore comes clean with Harry about his past and presumably, what his parents were doing and why they were killed. Maybe Snape is the one who has been guarding certain items belonging to the Potters and D-Dore sent him to go get them. * Snape had no idea what he was supposed to do and instead went out for pizza, figuring D-Dore would let him know soon enough. From drdara at yahoo.com Sun Apr 20 00:13:11 2003 From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 17:13:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DVD timeline mystery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030420001311.79837.qmail@web14511.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55669 Steve: > The difference was that I placed the opening of the > Chamber of > Secrets exactly fifty years before it was reopened > by Ginny under > the influence of TOm Riddle. They placed it 51 years > before. It > seems to me that there must have been some reason > why the year was > important. Me: If the book was set in the 1992-1993 school year, when Draco said it was opened 50 years before, it would have been 50 years and 6 months, because it was Christmas 1992. By the time Harry was in it it was June 1993, therefore by then it would have been 51 years. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From drdara at yahoo.com Sun Apr 20 00:36:11 2003 From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 17:36:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco's siblings? (was Re: Who knows Tom Riddle is Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030420003611.65944.qmail@web14504.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55670 If Lucius Malfoy was married before, I suggest this because people seem to think that Narcissa is a young trophy wife, it's possible that Lucius was widowed and remarried. He could have other kids that are 10-20 years older than Draco. It's not unusual for rich men to marry again and have more children. It's also possible that Draco had siblings who died in the first Voldie war. Either becuase they were killed by some of the old group or heavens forbid were against Voldie and Voldie killed them. If this is the case, Draco would be spoiled because he was the last child. And of course no one would really want to talk about them. Too sad or they wouldn't want to speak ill of the dead. danielle __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From bard7696 at aol.com Sun Apr 20 01:33:34 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 01:33:34 -0000 Subject: Molly & Arthur's ages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55671 > > Looking at the dates provided by the Lexicon, I conclude that Molly > left Hogwarts before Hagrid was hired as groundskeeper. Here is why: > > > So, Molly left Hogwarts by 1964 at the latest, while Hagrid was hired > by Dumbledore sometime in the late 1960s, so Molly would have only > known Ogg as groundskeeper. This is corroborated in Molly's stories > about Ogg, which never mention Hagrid. > > Bill I'm sold. Molly and Arthur probably never knew Hagrid, who was thrown out of Hogwarts in 1942-43, until the late 1970s when Bill and Charlie started attending. Even then, they might have just heard of him for several years from Bill and Charlie's school stories. This best a fantastic question though. What was Hagrid doing from the mid 1940s until the late 1960s? Lucius still need to be tucked in here somewhere. Everything about the animosity between Lucius and Arthur suggests they were in school together. Assuming Molly and Arthur, as Bill says, started having children fairly shortly after leaving Hogwarts as 18-year-olds in 1964, that would make them around 48 at the time of GoF. (This is assuming they are the same age.) Lucius could be in his mid-40s, still a school mate of Molly and Arthur. That would mean he and Narcissa had Draco when they were around 30 or so, not uncommon in well-to-do families. That would put Lucius at school at the same time as the Mauraders, but I don't think that's a problem. We've seen that, with rare exceptions, sixth- and seventh-years have very little to do with first- and second-years. Darrin -- I certainly had nothing to do with seventh-graders when I was a senior. From JuliusSalt at hotmail.com Sat Apr 19 22:34:53 2003 From: JuliusSalt at hotmail.com (Mors mordre) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 22:34:53 +0000 Subject: Number Four Protection Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55672 I am very curious about the subject of Harry protection at Privet Drive. I understand that Mrs Figg is possibly Harry's secret keeper but my curiosity lies with the subject of when exactly this happened. Did Dumbledore go to Mrs Figg first and then to Number 4? Did dumbledore place any other protection spells on Number 4? If so, he would not have had the time to do it before (at least not what we saw of it) Harry arrived with Hagrid. And then Harry is left unprotected for hours alone on Number 4's door step. I am doubtful that Harry at such an age and time would have been left without some kind of protection. Would that mean Dumbledore went to Mrs Figg first? If anyone has any thoughts they could kindly offer, I would be greatful. Thank you! Always confused and curious, Sheena _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From fandulin at hotmail.com Sun Apr 20 01:42:01 2003 From: fandulin at hotmail.com (fandulin) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 01:42:01 -0000 Subject: Disease and Sickness Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55673 Hello, this is my first post, and I would like to congratulate everyone involved in this. I've spent a lot of today going through the FAQs and other documentation in this group and in the Harry Potter Lexicon, and I am really blown away by the work and effort that has obviously gone into all of this. The only description that comes to mind is "communal labor of love". It is with a little trepidation that I post my first question, because it's probably been addressed somewhere already, but here goes.... Is there anything in canon or conjecture that mentions sickness and disease in the wizarding world? I've been re-reading the books recently and although it's clear that they are subject to all manner of injuries, curses, and wounds, I can't remember an instance of someone coming down with any run-of-the-mill colds, aches, sniffles, or anything like that. I believe I remember them suffering belly aches from stuffing themselves at the feasts, but that's about it. It's completely possible I missed a passage though. It got me wondering however, whether wizards have some sort of immunity to muggle diseases and illnesses. It would have a sort of cosmic justice to it, as muggles don't have to put up with the myriad mystical and fantastic ways wizards and witches have of dying, but then i've never read anything to make me believe that magical folks are biologically different from muggles. If anyone has any thoughts, i'd love to hear them. Thanks! "fandulin" From patgruenke at cloudnet.com Sun Apr 20 01:46:18 2003 From: patgruenke at cloudnet.com (Pat and Jim Gruenke) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 20:46:18 -0500 Subject: Draco's Siblings? Message-ID: <3EA1FBEA.DBBE7B99@cloudnet.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55674 Patricia Bullington-McGuire wrote: The thing is, though, that if he is younger than his siblings by 10 or more years, he wouldn't have had much chance to relate to them as peers. By the time he was old enough to interact with them they would be off at school for most of the year. And in my experience, most people I've known with siblings that much older treat them more like secondary parents than like fellow kids. So being younger by a decade or more would make him act like an only child for most practical purposes, and it wouldn't really explain his ability to manipulate his classmates. My take: I agree wholeheartedly. This is very much the situation in my husband's family. He has a sister 18 years younger than he is, who is 12 years younger than her nearest sibling in age. We refer to her as "an only child with five older brothers and sisters." She didn't realize that my husband was her brother until she was about four. He was more like an uncle. Draco has a sense of entitlement that would come with power and money handed to you on a silver platter, not earned. I really don't think it's an only-child problem, (they get an undeserved bad rap, IMHO) it's a spoiled rich kid problem. And I really, REALLY hope that Molly isn't 70. As a nearly-forty year old, I would shudder to think about another 20 years of childbearing! The WW doesn't age slower than the rest of the world, they live longer. Harry and co. seem to go through puberty at the correct time, not in their 30's. If you were fertile into your 60's, that's a lot to ask of a body! Pardon me for not quoting chapter and verse, but IIRC Ron once said something about "If we hadn't married Muggles, we would have died out." If you could have babies for over forty years, I don't think dying out would be a problem! Pat, who is way too old for this... From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 20 01:56:24 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 18:56:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Disease and Sickness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030420015624.71282.qmail@web20010.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55675 --- fandulin wrote: > Is there anything in canon or conjecture that > mentions sickness and > disease in the wizarding world? I've been > re-reading the books > recently and although it's clear that they are > subject to all manner > of injuries, curses, and wounds, I can't remember an > instance of > someone coming down with any run-of-the-mill colds, > aches, sniffles, > or anything like that. IIRC, there was mention of a cold or something of the sort in COS. Isn't that why people were taking Pepper Up potion? Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From william.truderung at sympatico.ca Sun Apr 20 02:04:56 2003 From: william.truderung at sympatico.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 02:04:56 -0000 Subject: Number Four Protection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55676 As I understand it, Harry's main protection is some sort of 'ancient magic' that protects him when he is under the 'care' of his relatives, wherever they may be. There is little more known about this magic, but I would guess that it is related to his blood bond with Petunia Dursley, his mother's sister. Harry is not under a [i]fidelius charm[/i], as his parents were, because if he were, nobody would be able to contact him at all, other than the secret-keeper him- or herself. Mrs Figg's role appears to simply be to monitor the neighborhood for magical threats to Harry. I limit it to magical threats only, because Harry is repeatedly assaulted by Dudley's gang without intervention. Bill From fausts at attglobal.net Sun Apr 20 03:32:34 2003 From: fausts at attglobal.net (anguaorc) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 03:32:34 -0000 Subject: SHIPping Attitudes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55677 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "derannimer" wrote: > See, there's nothing wrong with saying you see no evidence for a > theory, as long as you acknowledge that someone else *does* see it, > and that they aren't necessarily doing so from sheer intellectual > dishonesty. (See Angua's recent assertion that one could only be H/H > from--paraphrase--a "stubborn romanticizing and eroticizing impulse.") In the interest of clarity, I'd like to point out that I did not say that one could only "be H/H" out of such an impulse. I made a more limited assertion -- that to deny that Hermione's feelings for Harry in GoF are those of a "very platonic friend" can only be prompted by such an impulse. It is a denial, after all, of quite a bit of canon evidence as well as a direct assertion by the author. However, one could certainly "be H/H" without believing that Hermione showed non-platonic feelings for Harry in the book Goblet of Fire. If anyone has any interest in my personal opinion (and I don't see why you would), I believe that there are a variety of reasons one might want Hermione to end up with Harry. An early romanticizing impulse and a negative reaction to the character of Ron or JKR's portrayal of the R/H dynamic would probably be the two most common reasons. Others would be a distrust of the "obvious," a preference for tragedy over comedy, or even something as trivial as a preference for brunette over red hair, or for Radcliffe over Grint. Angua From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Sun Apr 20 03:58:10 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 03:58:10 -0000 Subject: Animagi (WAS re:QuidditchSeeker/Equinox/HarryRiddle/GryffNeville/VoldSex/Mug Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55678 Catlady wrote: I believe that Animagi cannot turn into magical creatures, which is why I do not share the widespread belief that Dumbledore is a Phoenix Animagus. But I'm pretty confused about what non-magical animals an Animagus might turn into -- for example, the first time of transforming into a fish seems likely to be fatal, via drowning in air. Even if the books advise practising beside a body of water until you know what form you will take, the water is either fresh or salt and many fish cannot survive in the wrong kind. How about turning into a Tyranosaurus? A moa? A passenger pigeon? Me: Heh. I do believe that is part of the reason the majority of wizarding population doesn't bother with becoming Animagi. :) If you know that your Animagus form is a T-Rex or a slug, you probably wouldn't even bother, would you? I believe there has to be a way of determining one's Animagus form before actually starting training. Also, the training process is probably gradual - meaning that it's not like WPP worked for two years, never once actually trying to tranform, and then all of a sudden they were ready to do it. I rather fancy the description of the training as given in Barb's Psychic Serpent. As for your fish example - what with finding out your form beforehand and getting proper supervision, transforming into a shark of trout wouldn't be a huge problem. And I also believe that one can't turn into a magical animal. Maria From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Sun Apr 20 04:57:03 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 04:57:03 -0000 Subject: Prefects Who Gained Power--NOT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55679 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "GKJPO" wrote: > That was in Chamber of Secrets. > [snip] > However, I believe it was mentioned to further illustrate Percy's > ambition. There have been many hints that Percy has a lot of > thirst for power and success. This was somewhat realized in GoF > where he followed around Mr. Crouch. We have yet to see how Mr. > Crouch's demise affected him, but I think his ambition still has a > part to play before he realizes how important his family is. Actually, I think everyone who's convinced that Percy is irredeemably ambitious just because of this book is falling for a big old red herring. One has to bear in mind that just about any time during CoS that Percy is behaving suspiciously, it is because of him sneaking around with his girlfriend, Penelope. When Harry and Ron (disguised as Crabbe and Goyle) run into him in the dungeons, just after running into Penelope Clearwater, he's very dodgy, and one gets the impression that he's just had an assignation with his girlfriend somewhere down there. (A clue that JKR does know what teenagers really get up to at boarding schools. ) When they're shopping in Diagon Alley, first Percy 'muttered vaguely about needing a new quill.' This was his excuse to go off without the others. Later, Harry, Ron and Hermione find Percy in a junk shop full of damaged goods, and when Ron needles him about the book he's 'deeply immersed' in (which sounds, frankly, like a ruse), Percy snaps, 'Go away.' My guess is Penelope was hiding behind a pile of junk in the shop and Percy never actually bought that book, just happened to grab it when he saw his brother and friends coming along. Because the book he happened to grab seems consistent with an ambitious personality, a lot more meaning has been ascribed to this than seems warranted. After all, even later, when Percy is concerned about what Ginny has to say, it's because he thinks she's going to tell others about him and Penelope kissing. When he locks himself in his dorm after finding out that Ginny's in the Chamber, I think he's remorseful that he was unkind to her, telling her not to reveal his relationship (maybe even threatening her with detention?). While he SEEMS to be very ambitious in GoF (I think he's taken in and used, but won't be again after this), I don't think the book "Prefects Who Gained Power" was a precursor of this, as there's no evidence he was ever really reading it, or even purchased it. Why should he tell Ron so tersely to go away? He could just pay for the book and read it any time, if he really wanted it. If he was trying to hide a tryst, on the other hand, which he is throughout much of the book, as we later learn...well, of course he'd want to get rid of the younger kids as soon as possible to get back to his girlfriend. I think we'll see Percy working behind the scenes quite a lot in future books, and only learn after the fact how much good he's done (and the in meantime, he'll seem to be doing the opposite). He's likely to be very remorseful that he allowed himself to be taken in by the owls sent by Barty Crouch, Jr. He's a bright boy, and I think Percy's learned his lesson from this. I don't expect him to turn dark--but if he can convince others who are dark, for a while, he could be an extraordinarily effective spy. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Sun Apr 20 05:04:00 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 05:04:00 -0000 Subject: The Weird Sisters Waltz (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55680 The Weird Sisters Waltz (GoF, Chap.23) To the tune of The Wiener Schnitzel Waltz by Tom Lehrer Hear a MIDI at: http://members.aol.com/quentncree/lehrer/wiener.htm Dedicated to Gail, who already likes it In order for this to scan properly, Weird must be considered a two- syllable word = WEE-YURD HARRY Do you remember the night I felt so uptight, As we danced to the Weird Sisters Waltz? The music was odd, and my partner was Parvati, I was dancing with her `cause I had to take somebati I did not feel like somersaults As the dance floor was cleared While we weaved to the Weird Sisters Waltz. Oh, the band wore black robes that were torn, la-la-la. And they played a tune rather forlorn, la-la-la. Bagpipes and celli, guitars, lute and drum But Ron kept obsessing upon Viktor Krum And Cedric got cozy with Cho, la-la-la. As Herm fraternized with the foe, la-la-la. I thought as my cohort led me `cross the floor I would rather be dueling with Lord Voldemort I remember the Ball `twas no fun at all, When I danced to the Weird Sisters Waltz. Percy's on Cloud Nine (if you'll pardon the metaphor), And Maxime was bopping with our Albus Dumbledore I saw Gin under Neville's assaults But I soon disappeared And abstained from the Weird Sisters Waltz. - CMC (who doesn't dance-waltz-tango-tarantella- gavotte-can- can-boogie, etc, either) HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm (updated 4/20/03 with 52 new filks) From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Apr 20 05:35:30 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 05:35:30 -0000 Subject: Molly & Arthur's ages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55681 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > > > > > Looking at the dates provided by the Lexicon, I conclude that > > Molly left Hogwarts before Hagrid was hired as groundskeeper. > Here is why: > > > > > > > > > So, Molly left Hogwarts by 1964 at the latest, while Hagrid was > > hired by Dumbledore sometime in the late 1960s, so Molly would > > have only known Ogg as groundskeeper. This is corroborated in > > Molly's stories about Ogg, which never mention Hagrid. > > > > Bill > > I'm sold. Molly and Arthur probably never knew Hagrid, who was > thrown out of Hogwarts in 1942-43, until the late 1970s when Bill > and Charlie started attending. Even then, they might have just heard of him for several years from Bill and Charlie's school stories. > > This best a fantastic question though. What was Hagrid doing from > the mid 1940s until the late 1960s? > > ...edited... > > Darrin bboy_mn: What was Hagrid doing????? He was working at Hogwarts. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I think you will find a majority of people believe that upon being expelled, Hagrid worked as gamekeeper-in-training until he recieved the appointment full time. Remember Hagrid was only 13 years old with (apparently) no family to go to which is why Dumbledore convinced Headmaster Dippet to keep Hagrid at Hogwarts. I wish I could find a reference to that for you, but I'm not at home now and don't have my books with me. Again, you have analysed this an arrived at an opinion that suits you, but I don't see anyway that Molly and Arthur could not know Hagrid unless they were in school before him. That makes them older than Hagrid who in now in his mid 60's. Just a thought. bboy_mn From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Sun Apr 20 05:45:45 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 05:45:45 -0000 Subject: Numbers & JKR (WAS Hermione's Age) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55682 Devika wrote: >As far as the reasons for JKR's approval of the timeline are >concerned, the fact is that she *did* approve it. It is now >official. I think that a lot of us forget that this is JKR's work >first and foremost. The fact that we are obsessed fans does not >mean that we have more information, or even as much information, >than JKR does about the world that she created. Me: I don't think that the fact that merchandise is JKR-approved makes the information in it indisputable. Yes, it certainly is possible that Hermione is indeed younger than Harry, and since, according to someone's information, JKR edited in the date herself, that's probably true. However, the the truth remains that we don't know exactly how much input JKR had in the timeline, the amount of attention JKR had given it, and exactly how attentive the time-line writers (or, possibly, copiers) had been to her comments. >Many people have said that JKR is not very comfortable with numbers >based on her estimate of the Hogwarts population. Me: Well, if you don't like the Hogwarts population example, there's a nice one of JKR not being careful with *days,* let alone with months and years. It's in GoF. The day before HHR go back to Hogwarts is said to be a Sunday, making the day of the Hogwarts Express trip a Monday, and, consequently, the first day of classes a Tuesday. But when HHR have breafast in the Great Hall on the said first day of classes, Ron looks at the *Monday* column of the schedule, and it becomes apparent from his words and the later events that the day is indeed a Monday. I'm sure that someone can provide us with a long and comprehensive list of all number discrepancies. I also vaguely recall that Moaning Myrtle's bathroom is said to be on the first floor in one instance in CoS, and on the second floor in another... but that, as someone (bboy_mn?) suggested, could be an inconsistent translation from the UK version to the US version. As for Hogwarts numbers, one definitely does not need to be a math genius to figure out that 1000 students at 10 students per House per year is impossible. I'm inclined to believe JKR here, although I interpret the number 1000 as 'over 700.' I just think that harry's year is unusually small, due to murders of either children, or adults in the right age bracket. >There could be any number of reasons for why JKR chose to give >Hermione a September birthday and make her younger than Harry and >Ron. I agree. >Whatever the reason is, it is JKR's reason, and these are her >books and her characters, after all. While many might disagree with >it, there doesn't seem to be any compelling reason for why it is >impossible. Impossible? No, there is no reason to think that, but some people think that it's unlikely. >Whether or not WB and JKR used Steve's timeline as a >model is irrelevant to the debate on Hermione's age. Yes, as Steve, apparently, did not have the date on his timeline. >No one forced >JKR to accept all of the dates in the timeline. If she had had any >major reason to make Hermione 13, then it would not have been >difficult for her to change that on the DVD timeline. If JKR >verifies a timeline saying that Hermione turned 12 during her second >year, then I'm inclined to believe it, regardless of what we think >we know about JKR's mathematical abilities. Me: Well, that timeline does have at least one definite mistake in it... And you know what? With this new information about the timeline creation process(that JKR made notes on it, etc), I'm inclined to believe the date, too. Although I like to think that Hermione is older than Harry. Maria, who loves JKR and finds Flints endearing. From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 20 05:53:56 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 22:53:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Prefects Who Gained Power--NOT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030420055356.12862.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55683 --- Barb wrote: > I think we'll see Percy working behind the scenes quite a lot in > future books, and only learn after the fact how much good he's done > (and the in meantime, he'll seem to be doing the opposite). He's > likely to be very remorseful that he allowed himself to be taken in > by the owls sent by Barty Crouch, Jr. He's a bright boy, and I > think Percy's learned his lesson from this. I don't expect him to > turn dark--but if he can convince others who are dark, for a while, > he could be an extraordinarily effective spy. I agree completely. Here you're working into one of my pet theories -- the Scarlet Weasley. I enjoy the name similarities between Percy Weasley and Percy Blakeney, the Scarlet Pimpernel. PB was an extremely effective spy simply because NO ONE thought for one second that he could possibly be one. Heck, that's why Peter Pettigrew was a good spy as well. The Scarlet Pimpernel was a dashing, daring spy -- who would possibly connect him to the foppish, air-headed Lord Blakeney? In the same way, who would possibly connect the daring spy for the Good Side with the boring, precise Weatherby? Percy is in the *perfect* position to gather information while appearing to be nothing more than a lower-level Ministry worker with ambitions of rising through the ranks. He'll *have* to have a certain level of disconnect with the rest of the Weasley family for a while for that to work. But I think he can do it, and the younger Weasley brothers will be *terribly* surprised when the daring spy is revealed as stolid old Percy. ;) Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From purple_801999 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 20 06:06:01 2003 From: purple_801999 at yahoo.com (purple_801999) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 06:06:01 -0000 Subject: Molly & Arthur's ages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55684 Darrin wrote- > This best a fantastic question though. What was Hagrid doing from the mid > 1940s until the late 1960s? > I personally hold with the theory of Hagrid staying on at Hogwarts. Unless of course he spent some time searching for his mother, but I doubt it. > Lucius still need to be tucked in here somewhere. Everything about the > animosity between Lucius and Arthur suggests they were in school together. > Well, perhaps there were other Weasley siblings and cousins that Lucius knew. And if they're anything like the current crop of Weasleys they excelled at almost everything they did and that made poor little rich kid Lucius ,if he's anything like his offspring, as green as the Slytherin crest. And then he gets into the real world where he comes into contact with Arthur who is a thorn in his side from day one and a saint to boot. So Lucius goes home to his (apparently) unhappy wife and puny son to cry in his bags of money. Decides at avenge himself be being very naughty and mean to the Muggles and killing Arthur's daughter. Only fair. Olivia Grey From cmarsmith at yahoo.com Sat Apr 19 22:14:58 2003 From: cmarsmith at yahoo.com (Charlie Smith) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 15:14:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PS/SS Title Change In-Reply-To: <1050715832.5298.6718.m4@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030419221458.94383.qmail@web41808.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55685 > Patricia Bullington-McGuire wrote: > > > I'm an American, and I knew about the > philosopher's stone long > > before the first Harry Potter book came out. > There are many other > > Americans who also know about it apart from the HP > books. And I'm > > sure there are many Brits who had *not* heard > about the > > philosopher's stone before Harry Potter. Cynjen: > *raises a hand* I'm British, and I'd never heard of > the philosopher's > stone before HP. This American had heard of it before and even knew that another name for it was the Magnum Opus. But then again, I'm a geek who owns a copy of the (Oxford or Cambridge, I can't remember which) History of Chemistry. Now if only JKR would include a reference to Phlogiston, the week I spent reading it will be vindicated. ;) -Charlie From fandulin at hotmail.com Sun Apr 20 02:24:38 2003 From: fandulin at hotmail.com (fandulin) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 02:24:38 -0000 Subject: Disease and Sickness In-Reply-To: <20030420015624.71282.qmail@web20010.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55686 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rebecca Stephens wrote: > > --- fandulin wrote: > > > Is there anything in canon or conjecture that > > mentions sickness and > > disease in the wizarding world? I've been > > re-reading the books > > recently and although it's clear that they are > > subject to all manner > > of injuries, curses, and wounds, I can't remember an > > instance of > > someone coming down with any run-of-the-mill colds, > > aches, sniffles, > > or anything like that. > > > IIRC, there was mention of a cold or something of the > sort in COS. Isn't that why people were taking Pepper > Up potion? > > > Rebecca Ah, right you are. The lexicon lists the potion and that a bout of the flu going around. I missed that. Thanks. I suppose that if magical folks are subject to the flu, they would also have the same chance as muggles to come down with other more or less serious illnesses as well. I wonder if there are spells that have the ability to cure or reverse the effects of cancer or alzheimers though. I'd always thought that even though wizards don't have very close dealings with the muggle world, there must have been members of magical society that have considered using their versatile powers to do good in the world at large. For instance, sneaking into muggle hospitals with an invisibility cloak on and healing broken bones, or other minor, "wand-wavable" injuries. Or if there are indeed magical means of treating more serious diseases, doing so. We know through Hermione that there are definately activist, do-gooder types in the wizarding world. It wouldn't have stop at medicine either. Think of the things that a clandestine group of stealthy wizards could do, roaming the world stopping senseless conflicts by making them forget why they're fighting, fixing irrigation problems, providing food and such. I'm not suggesting that wizards could save the muggle world from itself by any means, but a lot of good could certainly be done. Perhaps the Ministry has a "non-interference with the muggle world" clause. Ah well, just musing..... Fandulin From glorificus21 at bigpond.com Sun Apr 20 02:44:46 2003 From: glorificus21 at bigpond.com (glory) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 12:44:46 +1000 Subject: Snape at the end of GoF References: Message-ID: <00ab01c306e6$cee1dfe0$2f898a90@yourog0e5epvsj> No: HPFGUIDX 55687 Darrin wondered what Snape had been up to at the end of GoF: Here's a non-obvious answer. He made contact, not with V-Mort, not with Lucius, not with Karakoff and not with his second cousin, Vlad Dracula. But with Narcissa Malfoy. I have long liked the idea of the weak link in the Malfoy family -- as far as not being as evil as the rest -- is Narcissa. And I like the idea of Snape and Narcissa once being an item. For some reason, I just can't get my head around the fact that Snape is spying for Voldemort again. Not because I think the character is incapable of it but because I would like to think that Voldemort would be smart enough to realise that something was not quite right with Snape. For Snape to be working so closely with Dumbledore, and to have such a close proximity to Harry himself and NOT attempted anything makes me believe that he has and will remain on the side of good. Snape wasn't at that DE meeting when Voldemort's body was returned to him in GoF and I would think that that meeting would be seen as a fairly significant, if not important one. If Snape was truly trying to convince Voldemort of his allegiance, logically he would be there to see his Masters return to power. But, the question is also asked ... Who is Voldemort referring to when he speaks of the DE's that hadn't attended the meeting? He refers to the missing DE's as: ' ... One, too cowardly to return ... he will pay. One, who I believe has left me forever ... he will be killed, of course ... and one, who remains my most faithful servant, and who has already re-entered my service ..." By the end of GoF, most people assume that the reference to his 'most faithful servant' is for Crouch Jr. Upon discussions with my partner, we came to the conclusion that even though we feel that Snape returning to spy for Voldemort is unlikely, why couldn't that 'faithful servant' comment apply to him or even another Voldemort spy within the walls of Hogwarts? The almost nonchalant way Snape dismisses Karkaroff when Karkaroff wanted to speak to him about the re-emergence of the Dark Mark, for some reason, makes me believe he is now a DE in name only and that his task or duty at the end of GoF would have to be something different. Perhaps working on a particularly difficult potion or some sort of antidote for poison ... Who knows. The idea that he is once again spying for Voldemort doesn't sit well with me for some reason. But I guess we'll have to wait and see. Oh and Darrin, I like the idea of Snape visiting Narcissa aswell. If it ends up that way, I'd be very interested in seeing how that progresses. Especially how the interaction between Snape and Draco would change. In the end it could perhaps be what brings Draco around to the side of Good. Just a side note, I'm new around these parts. Name's Glory and I'm really very interested in the conversations that flow thick and fast around here. You guys already have me thinking about HP in a completely different light. Regards, Glory [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Sun Apr 20 04:27:18 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 23:27:18 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Animagi (WAS re:QuidditchSeeker/Equinox/HarryRiddle/GryffNeville/VoldSex/Mug References: Message-ID: <3EA221A6.D4DB4F36@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55688 maria_kirilenko wrote: > > As for your fish example - what with finding out your form beforehand > and getting proper supervision, transforming into a shark of trout > wouldn't be a huge problem. > > And I also believe that one can't turn into a magical animal. > > Maria > I do not believe that one has a set pre-determined form that is 'their form'. I believe that the wizard CHOOSES the form and practices that one form for a long time till they perfect it. Like Krum chose a shark due to the Tri Wizard Tournament, but didn't practice long enough to get the whole form. It would be too great a coincidence to think that his 'form' would just happen to be aquatic. Personally, I would have tried for an otter, since sharks are saltwater fish and the lake might have caused problems for a shark. Small-claw otters are also very clever with their paws, fast and agile swimmers and have nice sharp teeth. I believe the Marauders chose their forms. James and Sirius picking forms that were common enough that they could study the real animals first and fast enough to keep up with a werewolf. Peter likely was not brave enough to want to run with a werewolf and picked a form that allowed him to sneak into places easier. Again, it being too much a coincidence that they have such 'useful' forms for them to not have picked their own. Otherwise they might have been 3 totally useless animals for the purpose they were using the forms for.. say.. a sloth, a goldfish and a white rabbit? I do not buy the idea that ones animagus form is 'pre-set' and any hints the kids gave to this nature was ignorance about how one becomes an animagus on their part. They are after all, still students and even Hermione doesn't know everything... Jazmyn From ratchick22 at hotmail.com Sun Apr 20 05:16:35 2003 From: ratchick22 at hotmail.com (herm - own - ninny) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 05:16:35 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Disease and Sickness Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55689 Fandulin Wrote: Is there anything in canon or conjecture that mentions sickness and disease in the wizarding world? I've been re-reading the books recently and although it's clear that they are subject to all manner of injuries, curses, and wounds, I can't remember an instance of someone coming down with any run-of-the-mill colds, aches, sniffles, or anything like that. Me: In CoS it says: "October arrived, spreading a damp chill over the grounds and into the castle. Madam Pomfrey, the matron, was kept busy by a sudden spate of colds among the staff and students (p. 94, UK edition). So yes, they do get "run-of-the-mill colds", and likely all other muggle ailements as well. No need for bedrest though, since wizards use magic to deal with them, like the Pepperup potion that leaves you smoking at the ears (one of my personal favorites :) dina _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From erinellii at yahoo.com Sun Apr 20 06:44:20 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 06:44:20 -0000 Subject: QuidditchSeeker/Equinox/HarryRiddle/GryffNeville/VoldSex/MuggleInvent/Animagi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55690 aja_1991 wrote: > << (I can't help but think that the evil Voldemort feels and acts on sensations of lust in some way). >> >"Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > Lust for cruelty, certainly. And lust for power. But I believe that > TMR/Voldemort (lost/gave up) all sexual desire and sexual organs > when he switched to that scaley, noseless snake-man form. And that > he switched to snake-man during his experiments in search of > immortality, maybe as the side-effect of the successful experiment. > > From the re-embodying diary being, he doesn't seem to have been all > that interested in sex even when he was 16, still human, and good > enough at charming people that he could have been quite the seducer. > > Or (h'mm) maybe he only put parts of himself that were relevant to > finding the basilisk and siccing it on Muggle-born students into the diary, omitting sexuality and sports and maybe some actual friend- ships with those few friends who knew his secret name ... that would explain why the TMR character seems SUCH a psychopath ... Now me: Ok, I'm confused. Who exactly is Riddle supposed to be feeling lust FOR? The only people he/it meets are Ginny, an 11-year-old girl, and Harry, a 12-year-old boy. Not that I don't think he's capable of being that twisted, but that's not something JKR's going to put in a book for children. (Although come to think about it, there are an awful lot of references to Riddle's "hungry eyes" in that chamber scene...) I believe that the diary was a complete copy of the Riddle of that time, but is really only "activated" when someone handles it or writes in it, and there has never really been an appropriate moment for Riddle to express any other "feelings" he might have. Or any stimulus, really. Erin From srsiriusblack at aol.com Sun Apr 20 08:17:31 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 04:17:31 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius's Vault (UK vs. US) Message-ID: <1c0.86a7221.2bd3b19b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55691 I have the UK and US editions of the books.... It is NOT mentioned in the US books. which I truly believe is a pity as I think the vault number is of significance........ I don't know why it is, but I very much believe it will come up again and I think that the American readers are left without all the details...... I suggest HP fans in the US buy/order the original publications in English to see the many differences, not only in writing, but in the things left out by the US publishers of the first four books. It is my understanding the US editions of Book 5/OOTP, will not be as severely edited......let us hope so... The UK editions have been much better. -Snuffles, the Scot, but also the reader lol 'All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did.' T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom ========Original Message======== Subj: [HPforGrownups] Sirius's Vault (UK vs. US) Date: 4/18/2003 17:14:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time From: sixhoursahead at yahoo.com Reply-to: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent from the Internet (Details) For some time now I have been pondering the matter of Sirius's vault 711. It is the only other vault number we hear (POA Owl Post Again) of, and its presumable proximity to high-security vault 713 makes me believe that it has significance. (perhaps Sirius' line of work?) I mentioned it once before and someone said that in their American edition the vault number does not appear. I don't have any of my US versions, because they are all in...well, the US. What does anyone else's edition say. Significance? ANGELA --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From laikokae at hotmail.com Sun Apr 20 10:32:11 2003 From: laikokae at hotmail.com (Kae *) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 20:32:11 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape at the end of GoF Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55692 Glory: >Snape wasn't at that DE meeting when Voldemort's body was returned to >him >in GoF and I would think that that meeting would be seen as a >fairly >significant, if not important one. If Snape was truly trying to >convince >Voldemort of his allegiance, logically he would be there to >see his >Masters return to power. Are we absolutely sure that Snape was *not* at the Death Eater meeting? All we know for certain is that he is not named by Voldemort and does not speak or act in a way that would allow Harry to recognise him. But JKR makes a point of saying "Some of the Death Eaters he [Lord Voldemort] passed in silence". Snape *could* have been there, masked and unnamed and completely unknown to Harry. We are supposed to assume that Snape is one of the ones mentioned at the end, most likely the "one who I believe has left me forever", but it is also possible that he attended the meeting. It would be exactly the sort of slight of hand that JKR has been using throughout the series to keep us on out toes. Of course there are problems with this theory. Snape would have had enough time to get there and back, but probably only barely. He could have been anywhere while Harry is in the maze, but while he does not appear once Harry has returned until he storms Moody's office with Dumbledore and McGonagall, it's still quite a close call, since he would have had to run from the gates, since you can't Apparate within Hogwarts (it says so in "Hogwarts, A Hostory" ;)). He could have made it, however. Which brings up another question. Although Dumbledore claims that it was Moody disobeying his order to keep Harry in his sight that tipped him off to something being wrong, perhaps it was, in fact, Snape - who, after hearing that Voldemort had a loyal follower at Hogwarts, put the pieces together and suspected Moody/Crouch, and got back in time to warn Dumbledore. Which would explain how Dumbledore figured it out so quickly and also, why Snape was there when the office was stormed, but didn't seem to be anywhere near Dumbledore when Harry was returned. Then of course, if Snape was at the DE meeting, why didn't he assist Harry in any way while he was forced to duel with Voldemort? Did he already know about Priori Incantatem? Was he waiting until the last possible minute to blow his cover and help Harry? Did he decide that one boy was a necessary sacrifice to keep his cover (unlikely, I think)? Or was he helping Harry in a stealthy way that escaped our notice? All of it is bit of a stretch, but not entirely unlikely. Just a thought to keep us wondering. Laik, also a newbie and thoroughly enjoying the discussion so far. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Instant Messenger now available on Australian mobile phones.Go to http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilecentral/hotmail_messenger.asp From tammy at mauswerks.net Sun Apr 20 13:12:34 2003 From: tammy at mauswerks.net (Tammy Rizzo) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 09:12:34 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Animagi In-Reply-To: <3EA221A6.D4DB4F36@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: <3EA26482.19285.5D6DE60@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 55693 On 19 Apr 2003 at 23:27, jazmyn wrote: > I do not believe that one has a set pre-determined form that is 'their > form'. I believe that the wizard CHOOSES the form and practices that > one form for a long time till they perfect it. Like Krum chose a > shark due to the Tri Wizard Tournament, but didn't practice long > enough to get the whole form. It would be too great a coincidence to > think that his 'form' would just happen to be aquatic. Personally, I > would have tried for an otter, since sharks are saltwater fish and the > lake might have caused problems for a shark. Small-claw otters are > also very clever with their paws, fast and agile swimmers and have > nice sharp teeth. While you are, of course, always entitled to your opinion, I believe that the wizard does NOT choose his shape. JKR has stated in more than one interview (anyone have the links?) that, if she were to become an Animagus, she would hope to become an otter, and wouldn't it be dreadful if she became a slug? She's also stated that the Animagus form a wizard achieves has a direct correlation to the wizard's personality. Therefore, that means, to my mind, that an Animagus does not choose his form, but rather like the wands do, the form chooses him, based on what is deep within him. As for Krum at the TriWizard Tournament, I believe his part shark form was not an attempt at an Animagus, but was rather a 'simple' cross-species transformation, a spell obviously taught at the higher grades. I have a few reasons for believing this: one, he has only a shark's head. Therefore, he could breathe underwater, but he would still have his hands (and feet, for all the good they do underwater). Two, he still has his hands (and feet), so that he could wield his wand afterwards and reverse the transformation. Three, while there are a few happy coincidences and convenient happenings throughout the books, the thought that Krum was already a shark animagus before the Tournament, and the second task just happened to be one in which an aquatic animagus form would be helpful, giving an extreme advantage to Krum, is stretching the bounds of credulity. Especially since it's been stated by those who would know (Padfoot and Moony) that becomong an Animagus takes years of study, so it's just not possible that Krum had begun studying to be an Animagus after solving the egg riddle and was already able to make that much of a change in himself. Then, too, the narrative states, "He appeared to have transfigured himself -- but badly." Transfigured, not transformed. > I believe the Marauders chose their forms. James and Sirius picking > forms that were common enough that they could study the real animals > first and fast enough to keep up with a werewolf. Peter likely was not > brave enough to want to run with a werewolf and picked a form that > allowed him to sneak into places easier. Again, it being too much a > coincidence that they have such 'useful' forms for them to not have > picked their own. Otherwise they might have been 3 totally useless > animals for the purpose they were using the forms for.. say.. a sloth, > a goldfish and a white rabbit? Again, all I can say is that JKR has stated that the wizard does not choose his form, but that it is a reflection of his personality. In other words, Sirius was a protector in personality, and therefore became a large guard-type dog. James was a leader in personality, and therefore became a stag, leader of the herd, a creature long associated with nobility. Peter was a rat, pure and simple. > I do not buy the idea that ones animagus form is 'pre-set' and any > hints the kids gave to this nature was ignorance about how one becomes > an animagus on their part. They are after all, still students and > even Hermione doesn't know everything... > > Jazmyn No, not even Hermione knows everything, that's quite true. But Sirius knows what goes into becoming an animagus, and from what he tells us, it's not something that can be learned quickly, or easily, or that the wizard has much control over his form. Tammy From pegruppel at yahoo.com Sun Apr 20 13:15:33 2003 From: pegruppel at yahoo.com (pegruppel) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 13:15:33 -0000 Subject: Prefects Who Gained Power In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55694 > My first post--I hope it passes muster with my Elf. > > Kristen wrote: . . . I believe it was mentioned to further illustrate Percy's > ambition. There have been many hints that Percy has a lot of thirst for power and success. This was somewhat realized in GoF where he followed around Mr. Crouch. We have yet to see how Mr. Crouch's demise affected him, but I think his ambition still has a part to play before he realizes how important his family is. > I agree that Percy isn't quite as awful as he's portrayed. Although he's a "prig" he's also in Gryffindor (and not, I think, just because all of the rest of his family has been). I think the Sorting Hat put him there on his own merits. When push comes to shove, Percy will be a hero. We're seeing Percy from the viewpoint of his younger siblings and Harry, who aren't likely to see him as he is. They just notice how much of a pain in the rear he can be. I agree with the poster who said that Percy locked himself in his room when Ginny was taken to the Chamber is CoS--he felt horrible! Also, in GoF, when Ron comes out of the lake with Harry and Fleur's sister, Percy is very agitated, and starts fussing over Ron like a mother hen. Family is already very important to Percy, and I think he'll be a staunch ally of Harry and all of the "good guys." Peg, who just joined up. From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Apr 20 15:20:53 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 20 Apr 2003 15:20:53 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <1050852053.46595.63954.m11@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55695 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat Date: Sunday, April 20, 2003 Time: 11:00AM - 7:00PM CDT (GMT-05:00) Hi everyone! Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. *Chat times are not changing for Daylight Saving/Summer Time.* Chat generally goes on for about 5 hours, but can last as long as people want it to last. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type /join HP:1 For further info, see the Humongous BigFile, section 3.3. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hbfile.html#33 Hope to see you there! From william.truderung at sympatico.ca Sun Apr 20 15:50:51 2003 From: william.truderung at sympatico.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 15:50:51 -0000 Subject: Molly & Arthur's ages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55696 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: What was Hagrid doing????? He was working at Hogwarts. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I think you will find a majority of people believe that upon being expelled, Hagrid worked as gamekeeper-in-training until he recieved the appointment full time. Me: You may be right that most people believe that, but the question is, what does JKR believe? Are we to believe that somebody expelled for MURDER will be allowed to remain on school grounds? Hagrid may not have been sent to Azkaban, as far as we know, but the Hogwarts governers would have had Dippet sacked if he allowed Hagrid to stay at Hogwarts. Hagrid's wand was snapped, and Fudge makes reference to Hagrid's record being against him, so his expulsion was likely an official, carefully monitored procedure - I do not think that Dippet would allow it to be undermined in that way. Bill From gandharvika at hotmail.com Sun Apr 20 15:57:20 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 15:57:20 +0000 Subject: (FILK) Fizzing Fizz Whizzbees Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55697 Wishing everybody a Happy Easter if you are of that persuasion...a Happy Passover if you are the other...and if you are neither, well then, have a good day! Fizzing Fizz Whizzbees (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Dizzy Miss Lizzy_ as performed by the Beatles) Midi is here: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Studio/7779/beatle08.html Rock-n-roll Ron: I want some Fizzing Fizz Whizzbees, the candy I adore I want some Fizzing Fizz Whizzbees, I eat them by the score Yeah, Fizzing Whizzbees, shore would like some more Can't stand Cockroach Clusters, think they're really gross Just give me Fizzing Fizz Whizzbees, nothing else comes close Such a great tasting candy, man, I really dig them the most They're great these Fizzing Fizz Whizzbees, I'm on a sugar high Oooooo, Whizzbees, say that they're alright Come on, come on, come on, candy I wanna get some tonight Buy them at Honeydukes, in the village of Hogsmeade Buy them at the candy store, down at Diagon Alley Those crazy Fizzing Fizz Whizzbees, It's what I want to eat Come on give me candy, say it really tastes good I love those Fizzing Fizz Whizzbees, man, it's understood If I could eat these candies all day, you know there's no doubt that I would -Gail B ...who had a fun time writing this filk and who asks; doesn't this song sound *exactly* like _The Hippie Hippie Shake_? Which Beatle album was that song on? _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From bard7696 at aol.com Sun Apr 20 16:16:52 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 16:16:52 -0000 Subject: Molly & Arthur's ages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55698 What was Hagrid doing????? > > He was working at Hogwarts. You are certainly entitled to your > opinion, but I think you will find a majority of people believe that > upon being expelled, Hagrid worked as gamekeeper-in-training until he > recieved the appointment full time. > > Me: You may be right that most people believe that, but the question > is, what does JKR believe? Are we to believe that somebody expelled > for MURDER will be allowed to remain on school grounds? Hagrid may > not have been sent to Azkaban, as far as we know, but the Hogwarts > governers would have had Dippet sacked if he allowed Hagrid to stay > at Hogwarts. Hagrid's wand was snapped, and Fudge makes reference to > Hagrid's record being against him, so his expulsion was likely an > official, carefully monitored procedure - I do not think that Dippet > would allow it to be undermined in that way. > > Bill What Bill said. The reference you were looking for, Steve, is in PS/SS UK page 43, when Hagrid just picks up Harry at the Hut-on-the- Rock and says that Dumbledore let him "stay on" as gamekeeper. One problem. Dumbledore wasn't Headmaster and the Lexicon Timeline tells us he wasn't Headmaster until the 1970s. The Timeline ALSO says that Hagrid started in 1943, so, there's a problem with my argument as well. Hagrid was expelled after a student died. Lupin, a full-fledged teacher, had to resign after the owls came in complaining. I have a hard time believing that Hagrid would get a sanctioned job where he had full access to the Forbidden Forest, so soon after everyone believed his fascination with creatures killed a student. I don't call it murder. More like neglect leading to a death. Even Dumbledore didn't have that kind of clout (and this was before he beat Grundewald.) At LEAST until Moaning Myrtle and Tom Riddle's classes graduated, you'd want to keep Hagrid out of sight. It is possible that Dumbledore got Hagrid some work on the sly, where he was away from school, perhaps DEEP into the Forbidden Forest. Even then, Dumbledore might have realized that having someone on good terms with the centaurs would someday come in handy. But to me, it is entirely reasonable that Molly and Arthur could have gone to school in the mid-1950s-early 1960s and not had much dealings with Hagrid. Remember, Molly doesn't say she doesn't KNOW Hagrid, only that he wasn't the gamekeeper. After all, besides the HRH trio, how many students actually interacted with Hagrid before he became the Care of Magical Creatures teacher? Harry has a special connection to him because Hagrid was the one who came and got him from the Dursleys, and Ron and Hermione follow along with Harry. Darrin -- Or maybe this isn't Hagrid's first trip to the land of Giants? From bard7696 at aol.com Sun Apr 20 16:29:14 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 16:29:14 -0000 Subject: Snape at the end of GoF In-Reply-To: <00ab01c306e6$cee1dfe0$2f898a90@yourog0e5epvsj> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55699 Glory wrote: > > For Snape to be working so closely with Dumbledore, and to have such a close proximity to Harry himself and NOT attempted anything makes me believe that he has and will remain on the side of good. Snape wasn't at that DE meeting when Voldemort's body was returned to him in GoF and I would think that that meeting would be seen as a fairly significant, if not important one. If Snape was truly trying to convince Voldemort of his allegiance, logically he would be there to see his Masters return to power. This is a good point, but I think there are some good excuses. You can't apparate out of Hogwarts, so Snape might have been able to say he couldn't get away from Dumbledore while the Third Task was going on. Also, Snape has been, to outward appearances, someone who has remained faithful to Voldemort's teachings. He has become (or remained) the head of Slytherin House, does everything he can to help kids like Draco, Crabbe and Goyle, presumably the "next generation" of DEs, and runs down Gryffndor and especially Muggle-Borns like Hermione and near-Squibs like Neville whenever possible. My point is that he could talk his way out of missing the meeting, if he really needed to. > But, the question is also asked ... Who is Voldemort referring to when he speaks of the DE's that hadn't attended the meeting? He refers to the missing DE's as: ' ... One, too cowardly to return ... he will pay. One, who I believe has left me forever ... he will be killed, of course ... and one, who remains my most faithful servant, and who has already re-entered my service ..." > I see where the faithful servant comment could be Snape, but I think the "already re-entered my service" seals it for Barty Jr. The "I believe has left me forever" allows, again, for Snape to get back in the good graces. He just has to convince V-Mort that he was mistaken. But, again, I hope it's not that obvious. > Oh and Darrin, I like the idea of Snape visiting Narcissa aswell. If it ends up that way, I'd be very interested in seeing how that progresses. Especially how the interaction between Snape and Draco would change. In the end it could perhaps be what brings Draco around to the side of Good. I once came up with a speech from Narcissa to Lucius that I would love to see: Narcissa: "Darling, remember that grandfather of mine you never met because he was killed in a duel with a Gryffndor? Well, he was actually a dockworker from Liverpool that hated magic. That's right, I am part-Muggle. I had to lie to you because we needed your money. Oh, and Draco isn't yours. He's Severus. I've just bewitched him to look blonde. Bye-bye." (She waves her wand and Draco's white-blonde hair turns greasy black.) But... I DON'T WANT DRACO TO BE GOOD. I want him to be BADDER than he is now. Right now, he's a joke, the Wile E. Coyote to Harry's Road Runner. He's a weak villain, and I'd rather see him get nastier, to make a better foil for Harry as they get older. > Just a side note, I'm new around these parts. Name's Glory and I'm really very interested in the conversations that flow thick and fast around here. You guys already have me thinking about HP in a completely different light. > Welcome, Glory. Let me give you a bit of advice. Every once in a while, just re-read the books without all the questions we raise here in mind. I posted here daily for three months last year and I found I was sick of the books from digging in and quoting page numbers and stuff. I took several months off, re-read them after I got Chamber of Secrets of DVD and now I'm back. Darrin -- Narcissa and the Dockworkers would be a good name for a band. From meboriqua at aol.com Sun Apr 20 16:39:11 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 16:39:11 -0000 Subject: Prefects Who Gained Power In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55700 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pegruppel" wrote: > I agree that Percy isn't quite as awful as he's portrayed. Although he's a "prig" he's also in Gryffindor (and not, I think, just because all of the rest of his family has been). I think the Sorting Hat put him there on his own merits. When push comes to shove, Percy will be a hero. We're seeing Percy from the viewpoint of his younger siblings and Harry, who aren't likely to see him as he is. They just notice how much of a pain in the rear he can be.> Welcome, Peg! I can't say that I think Percy is awful, but I don't see him as a hero, either. I think he is more complex than that. I think Percy is basically a good guy who is a bit ego-centric. He has the damaging tendency to think he is right all the time, which is certainly not evil, but it isn't good, either. He is also eager to please and likes to work hard, which is again, good in theory, but can cause (and has caused) ugly results. Percy was insistent that he knew his own boss's handwriting, when, in fact, we discover that Percy didn't know Crouch Sr. any better than Crouch Sr. knew Percy (the parallels between the two unnerve me). I wonder if Percy will still want to rise in the ranks of the MOM after what has happened: he had a boss who didn't bother to learn Percy's name, he worked endless hours without any recognition, and he *possibly* could have helped thwart Voldemort's rise to power again if he *had* noticed that something was wrong with the very boss he was so intent upon impressing. Percy is feeling pretty humiliated right about now. I like Barb's ideas about Percy's ambitions being confused with his hormones. I think that goes with the idea that Percy is not quite what he seems to be. Just because Percy received top grades does not mean he is smart in other ways. His brushing off of Ginny in CoS is one example, and his ignorance of his boss's situation is another. Percy has trouble seeing beyond himself. Let's see if he learns how to do that after what he has experienced. --jenny from ravenclaw, who works with people just like Percy, and would love to see one of them come down a notch as well ************************************* From amani at charter.net Sun Apr 20 17:04:36 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 13:04:36 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Animagi (WAS re:QuidditchSeeker/Equinox/HarryRiddle/GryffNeville/VoldSex/Mug References: <3EA221A6.D4DB4F36@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: <002c01c3075e$ec7337c0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55701 maria_kirilenko wrote: > > As for your fish example - what with finding out your form beforehand > and getting proper supervision, transforming into a shark of trout > wouldn't be a huge problem. > > And I also believe that one can't turn into a magical animal. > > Maria > Jazmyn: I do not believe that one has a set pre-determined form that is 'their form'. I believe that the wizard CHOOSES the form and practices that one form for a long time till they perfect it. Like Krum chose a shark due to the Tri Wizard Tournament, but didn't practice long enough to get the whole form. It would be too great a coincidence to think that his 'form' would just happen to be aquatic. Personally, I would have tried for an otter, since sharks are saltwater fish and the lake might have caused problems for a shark. Small-claw otters are also very clever with their paws, fast and agile swimmers and have nice sharp teeth. Me: But there's a very large difference. Krum is not an animagus. He attempted to /transfigure/ himself into a shark, which is a large difference. Had he completed the transfiguration, he would have had the mind of a shark (which probably wouldn't have been very good if blood got in the water). I'm one of those who believe that the animagus form is /not/ chosen by the wizard. This is implied in a JK Rowling interview: Q: If you were Animagus, what kind of animal would you be? A: I'd like to be an otter - that's my favourite animal. It would be depressing if I turned out to be a slug or something. http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript2.htm This obviously implies that a person's animagus form is not chosen, but is, in a way, a reflection of that person. --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bard7696 at aol.com Sun Apr 20 17:29:55 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 17:29:55 -0000 Subject: Hermione - filk Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55702 Scene: Hermione in the library, alone, looking up charms and spells for Harry to use during the Third Task. She finally slams the book down. Hermione, sung to the tune of "Kryptonite" by 3 Doors Down I came here and hit the books To find you some more nifty spells I ditched an owl from Krum to keep your bony ass from Hell I find you and Ron Playing chess and reading Quidditch books I give such dirty looks, yeah I find you and Ron Playing chess and reading Quidditch books And I know that if you live it's up to me I really don't care, if you ignore me now and then As long as you respect me as the smart friend If you don't listen then you won't make it through the task You can rely on me or on old Mad-Eye with his flask I find the spell to get you through With my superhuman IQ Hermione You say I'm pushy, you say I'm mad But without me you would be had Don't you forget that it was me who set old Snape on fire You stumbled in and saw those jars without my logic you would be barred I grabbed your hand, turned my glass and back in time we went If you don't listen then you won't make it through the task You can rely on me or on old Mad-Eye with his flask I'll find the spell to get you through with my superhuman IQ Hermione Yeah!! repeat chorus Darrin From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 20 17:35:03 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 10:35:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape at the end of GoF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030420173503.69307.qmail@web21007.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55703 Glory wrote: > > For Snape to be working so closely with Dumbledore, and to have such a close proximity to Harry himself and NOT attempted anything makes me believe that he has and will remain on the side of good. Snape wasn't at that DE meeting when Voldemort's body was returned to him in GoF and I would think that that meeting would be seen as a fairly significant, if not important one. If Snape was truly trying to convince Voldemort of his allegiance, logically he would be there to see his Masters return to power. Me: Another thing I found interesting in the end of GoF that may not be real important but, well, interesting is Harry's observation of how Snape was looking at him at the end of GoF. In the past, Harry could immediately sense strong enemity and even hatred towards him coming from Snape. This time the feeling Harry got was a lot more ambivulent and harder to decifer. It makes me wonder if there isn't going to be a subtle but definite improvement in their relationship in the future books. Not friendship of course! But maybe a lot less hostility and more understanding from Snape? Particularly since they are now on the same side since the "war" is definitely starting. I do believe that was one of Ms. Rowlings little clues about future developments. We'll see. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 20 17:45:44 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 10:45:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Prefects Who Gained Power In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030420174544.91809.qmail@web20009.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55704 --- jenny_ravenclaw wrote: Percy was insistent that he > knew his own boss's > handwriting, when, in fact, we discover that Percy > didn't know Crouch > Sr. any better than Crouch Sr. knew Percy (the > parallels between the > two unnerve me). Um, I thought that it was Crouch Sr. handwriting. That he was writing the letters, under the imperious curse. But don't hold me to it. Me, I think Percy and Crouch are outwardly similiar, but inwardly very different. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From grosich at nyc.rr.com Sun Apr 20 17:58:34 2003 From: grosich at nyc.rr.com (Gina R Rosich) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 13:58:34 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape at the end of GoF In-Reply-To: <20030420173503.69307.qmail@web21007.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55705 On 4/20/03 1:35 PM, "Becky Walkden" had this to say: > > > Me: Another thing I found interesting in the end of GoF that may not be real > important but, well, interesting is Harry's observation of how Snape was > looking at him at the end of GoF. In the past, Harry could immediately sense > strong enemity and even hatred towards him coming from Snape. This time the > feeling Harry got was a lot more ambivulent and harder to decifer. It makes > me wonder if there isn't going to be a subtle but definite improvement in > their relationship in the future books. Not friendship of course! But maybe > a lot less hostility and more understanding from Snape? Particularly since > they are now on the same side since the "war" is definitely starting. I do > believe that was one of Ms. Rowlings little clues about future developments. > We'll see. Huggs Becky > > > --------------------------------- Indeed, Becky. Harry knows and recognizes negativity from Snape. But can he recognize and interpret other feelings and expressions from him? I am convinced that Snape looks at Harry with a combination of concern and awe. He is contemplating Harry and his future, as well as the future of the wizarding world which will undoubtedly fall into Harry?s hands. Snape has been working very hard for 4 years to protect Harry. Which seems to elude Harry?s recognition and gratitutde in context. Now Voldemort has returned in the flesh, which will necessitate doubling or tripling of those efforts. Plus, Harry held his own against Voldemort. Snape may have a newfound respect for him. I think there was a hint of that in CoS, with the Parseltongue. Snape getting a sense of what this kid is made of. I for one am very very eager to see how their relationship changes and grows in GoF. But then, I?m an unapologetic Snape fan who is waiting for Harry to thank Snape for his efforts. Gina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sun Apr 20 18:33:13 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 19:33:13 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] healing wizards References: <1050826809.3624.30140.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000b01c3076b$4e0a5160$d97d0550@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 55706 Fandulin wrote: > illnesses as well. I wonder if there are spells that have the > ability to cure or reverse the effects of cancer or alzheimers > though. I'd always thought that even though wizards don't have very It's quite possible. Though given the existence of St Mungo's, it's certain that magic can't cure everything, at least yet - doubtless the hospital has a research programme, given that the various branches of magic do seem to develop over the years. > close dealings with the muggle world, there must have been members of > magical society that have considered using their versatile powers to > do good in the world at large. For instance, sneaking into muggle > hospitals with an invisibility cloak on and healing broken bones, or > other minor, "wand-wavable" injuries. Or if there are indeed magical > means of treating more serious diseases, doing so. We know through > Hermione that there are definately activist, do-gooder types in the > wizarding world. It wouldn't have stop at medicine either. Think of > the things that a clandestine group of stealthy wizards could do, > roaming the world stopping senseless conflicts by making them forget > why they're fighting, fixing irrigation problems, providing food and > such. I'm not suggesting that wizards could save the muggle world > from itself by any means, but a lot of good could certainly be done. > Perhaps the Ministry has a "non-interference with the muggle world" > clause. Ah well, just musing..... I strongly suspect that the Ministry would take a very dim view indeed of this sort of activity, no matter how virtuous. The one over arching principle that the MoM lives by is "no contact with muggledom" and think about the _huge_ amount of ministerial resource that goes into enforcing that. I don't think that the MoM would differentiate between a group of altruistic healing wizards and Voldemort's abusers - both of them threaten the secrecy of the WW. Perhaps in a way, the healers would be a bigger threat to the WW if their existence was discovered. Because what began as a favour would then be demanded as routine, and refusal would threaten to end in a pogrom against wizardry, the same threat that caused the WW to go underground in the first place. And don't forget that if the muggle world found out about wizardly powers, they might well start demanding not just intervention for healing and peace, but on the opposite side. Wizards of mass destruction, anyone? Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From jodel at aol.com Sun Apr 20 18:51:09 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 14:51:09 EDT Subject: The Scarlet Weasley Message-ID: <43.1b87650c.2bd4461d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55707 > Andrea proposes: > > In the same way, who would possibly connect the daring spy for the Good Side > with the boring, precise Weatherby?? Percy is in the *perfect* position to > gather information while appearing to be nothing more than a lower-level > Ministry worker with ambitions of rising through the ranks. > Take this a little further. Among people in the know, Percy's reputation is already a bit dodgy since it is known that his promotion to Crouch's personal assistant was engineered from outside by Voldemort. That's likely to be a very short list if Fudge has anything to do about it, and just about all of these "people in the know" are on the Dark side. If Percy and Arthur can manage to stage a very acrimonius and public falling out with Percy taking Fudge's part, he will diffinitely be in a position to go undercover, since the DEs will assume that he is supporting Fudge with an eye to his own advancement. Ergo, he is demonstarably ambitious and he has already "shown" that he can be "useful". Sounds like recruitment bait to me. -JOdel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From erinellii at yahoo.com Sun Apr 20 17:44:08 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 17:44:08 -0000 Subject: Draco, a younger sibling? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55708 > "The Fox" wrote: > > I said Draco has all the worst qualities of both only > > children *and* babies-of-the-family, and none of the best ones, > >which makes me suspect he's one of those kids who's younger by > >quite a long way -- like ten or eleven years. > > > > This is a kid who knows how to relate to other kids -- to his > >greatest advantage. That's a youngest child (of several), if I'm > >any judge. Me: Well, if Draco did have elder siblings, they'd have to be either girls, or somehow a disgrace to the family, cause otherwise we'd be hearing a lot of "My brother..." in the same way we hear a lot of "My father...". (somehow can't picture Draco going "my sister..." in quite the same whiny, show-offy way) Erin From editor at texas.net Sun Apr 20 19:02:22 2003 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 14:02:22 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape at the end of GoF References: Message-ID: <001101c3076f$704d8a40$bb04a6d8@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 55709 Gina: Indeed, Becky. Harry knows and recognizes negativity from Snape. But can he recognize and interpret other feelings and expressions from him? I am convinced that Snape looks at Harry with a combination of concern and awe. He is contemplating Harry and his future, as well as the future of the wizarding world which will undoubtedly fall into Harrys hands. Snape has been working very hard for 4 years to protect Harry. Which seems to elude Harrys recognition and gratitutde in context. Now Voldemort has returned in the flesh, which will necessitate doubling or tripling of those efforts. Plus, Harry held his own against Voldemort. Snape may have a newfound respect for him. I think there was a hint of that in CoS, with the Parseltongue. Snape getting a sense of what this kid is made of. I for one am very very eager to see how their relationship changes and grows in GoF. But then, Im an unapologetic Snape fan who is waiting for Harry to thank Snape for his efforts. -------------------- Hm. For some reason, the "quoted material" carets didn't show up. Well, this is Amanda now. I agree with just about everything you and Becky before you had said (except the awe part. I don't think Snape is awed by anyone except Dumbledore). I will add my own spin, which I have long believed: Snape is only now seeing Harry as Harry, rather than James' (or Lily's) son, with all the attendant emotional baggage that latter view brought. Snape, I think, has been sublimating his past in his reactions to Harry et al., up to now (and in his treatment of Draco). I think this last exchange of glances at the end of GoF is the very, very first time that Snape is looking at Harry without the emotional context being foremost in his reaction. For those of you who have missed this particular theme of mine (for it has been long since I harped it onlist), I think Snape has never really bothered to perceive anything about Harry. I think his immediate and lasting way of dealing with Harry was by dealing with him the way he wished James had been dealt with. In his view, James and his friends were always breaking rules and getting away with murder, and so he is doing his best to keep Harry from doing that. Probably equal parts of sublimation and revenge, both subconscious, with a conscious intent to protect and enforce the rules. As for Draco, Snape lets him get away with stuff, because he, Snape, doesn't think *he* got away with stuff. If Harry et al. is James et al., Draco is Snape. The emotional reactions and "programming" were set years ago; Snape's been on "reactionary autopilot" where these children are concerned, ever since they met him. Only now, now that things have taken a serious turn and contingency plans have been activated, only now is Snape looking at Harry and seeing Harry more than he is seeing the past. In my opinion, also, none of this is conscious. Snape is a proud, grown man and has much more to do with his life than lie awake thinking of how to make this child's life miserable. I think if he realized what he's doing, he'd stop. There are loads of ways to validate how he treats all of them, and he does this. It *is* a good idea to enforce rules. And I personally think that he is, consciously, exercising a subtle revenge on the Malfoys by indulging Draco so; for Draco will be supremely unprepared to face any challenge or danger (unlike Harry, who already has experience with both, and much of whose ability to weather adversity comes from dealing with Snape). He cannot take the postive action of encouraging or helping Harry--for reasons both conscious and sub--but he can take the negative action of weakening Harry's enemy. And Amanda's Take on Snape, for the record and to state this again publicly closer to the release of OoP I think Snape loved Lily. I do *not* think they had any kind of a "thing" going or were ever a couple. I think he loved her and loves her still; I think he worked himself up to confess it to her; I think she let him down easy so that he does not hate her; I think she only later became James' girl. I think Snape harbors a secret horrible fear that Lily told James about this, which adds strength to his hatred of James. I think part of the reason Snape hates James with such dedicated venom is that he's pulled a neat bit of sublimation (which, interestingly, I saw operating in an old boyfriend of mine), where all reactions positive were associated with her (so that he still loves her) and all reactions negative were associated with James (including any anger at her). I think Snape has a personal code of honor which is strict, which he applies equally to himself and to others, and which has absolutely nothing to do with socially accepted values or laws. I think both Dumbledore and Voldemort know this about Snape. I think Snape asked Voldemort to spare Lily, and Voldemort said he would, and then did not. Voldemort thus transgressed, according to Snape's code, and both Voldemort and Snape know Snape thinks this. This is my reason for believing Snape is the DE who "I believe has left me forever." And I think it *is* the final reason he will not truly completely go back, in his heart, to Voldemort. I think Dumbledore knows all this as well, which is why he trusts Snape so. I think Harry is difficult for Snape to deal with, since I think he has this positive/negative sublimation going with Lily and James, and Harry is both Lily's and James' son. Dealing with Harry as himself would require Snape to process or revisit more emotional content than he cares to, and so this is one reason he has subconsciously just allowed himself to slip back into "James mode" when dealing with Harry. I think Snape's task was to return to Voldemort, pretend to have been loyal all these years, and resume spying. I think Dumbledore's anxiety is that the temptation of Snape's old ways and power (for he would hardly have been an effective spy unless he were highly placed) might be very strong. I think the glitter in Snape's eyes is what Porphyria analyzed it to be--for Snape's eyes glitter whenever he is being angry, cruel, or calculating; to see it there, as he goes to do his task, worries Dumbledore. I think if Harry had not escaped from Voldemort, Snape would be toast. He'd never have a chance to open his mouth. But Voldemort now has desperate need of a Plan B (egotists never believe that Plan A will go awry), and Snape is a highly placed administrator at Hogwarts and a very useful card to show to all the DEs who have just seen Harry best him yet again. Okay, that's about all I can think of at the moment. For those of you who have Heard All This Before, sorry. For those of you who have not, have at it. Maybe I'll do up a What Will We Find Out About Snape poll. ~Amandageist, premier Snapologist From fandulin at hotmail.com Sun Apr 20 18:54:45 2003 From: fandulin at hotmail.com (fandulin) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 18:54:45 -0000 Subject: healing wizards In-Reply-To: <000b01c3076b$4e0a5160$d97d0550@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55710 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "manawydan" wrote: > Perhaps in a way, the healers would be a bigger threat to the WW if their > existence was discovered. Because what began as a favour would then be > demanded as routine, and refusal would threaten to end in a pogrom against > wizardry, the same threat that caused the WW to go underground in the first > place. > > And don't forget that if the muggle world found out about wizardly powers, > they might well start demanding not just intervention for healing and peace, > but on the opposite side. Wizards of mass destruction, anyone? All very good points. It seems cold-hearted, but then again, wizards don't ask muggledom for help with problems particular to them, i.e. Voldemort. I was just thinking that young wizards, especially those from muggle backgrounds would sometimes see the chaos and sadness of the muggle world and wonder if they should be doing something. I mean face it, outside of the threat of dark wizards, the WW is a very comfortable and safe place to be (with the exception of dangerous activities they gleefully pursue, such as quidditch). Perhaps they would begin to wonder where their loyalties should primarily lie, with the WW or the human race. Then again, once they enter the WW, wizards and witches probably don't have much contact with the muggles, and may simply forget or not realize the problems and struggles that most of the world has to put up with. I do agree that if their interference was discovered, it would be an extremely slippery slope from then on. Fandulin From erinellii at yahoo.com Sun Apr 20 18:00:02 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 18:00:02 -0000 Subject: PS/SS title change Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55711 > > Cynjen: > > > *raises a hand* I'm British, and I'd never heard of > > > the philosopher's > > > stone before HP. > > "Charlie" wrote: > > This American had heard of it before and even knew > > that another name for it was the Magnum Opus. But then > > again, I'm a geek who owns a copy of the (Oxford or > > Cambridge, I can't remember which) History of > > Chemistry. Now if only JKR would include a reference > > to Phlogiston, the week I spent reading it will be > > vindicated. ;) Now me: Wait a minute, "magnum Opus" just means "greatest work", right? Cause I'm sure I've heard people refer to their novels that way..."This is my Magnum Opus".... I know I've never heard of it as an alternate title for the philosopher's stone, and I'd heard of the legend before. Erin From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Sun Apr 20 19:11:58 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 15:11:58 EDT Subject: FILK: Cruciatus Message-ID: <6a.301cba20.2bd44afe@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55712 Cruciatus (To the tune of the Mickey Mouse song... you know: M - I - C ...see ya real soon, etc.!) (SCENE: The Graveyard in GoF, when the Dark Lord uses the Cruciatus Curse on Harry the first time.) VOLDEMORT: Now it's time to say good-bye To your sanity C - R - U ... you know, I did this to your parents C - I - A ... a fine hero *you* turned out to be T - U - S! ========= ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ (Who decided to celebrate her first anniversary on this list by trying to FILK something...and hopes she didn't fail miserably!) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Frontsiderocker at msn.com Sun Apr 20 19:06:49 2003 From: Frontsiderocker at msn.com (Mark Hewitt) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 20:06:49 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] healing wizards Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55713 >The one over arching principle that the MoM lives by is "no contact with >muggledom" and think about the _huge_ amount of ministerial resource that >goes into enforcing >that. I agree to an extent that the wizarding World refrains from contact with Muggles on the whole, but as we see in PoA, the Prime Minister is consulted after the escape of Sirius Black. It is my opinion that only those who need to know about the wizarding world do so (and maybe through controlled circumstances?) I beleive that for the muggle and wizarding world to survive side by side, pragmatic atitudes must be adopted-(Perhaps we shall see more of this if the Death-eaters become more active?) As for healing, its evident that the wizarding world is constantly researching and inventing-(improvements in brooms, new equipment) so its fair to say that magical healing is also constantly improving-(clearly not fast enough for Mr/Mrs Longbottom) Hi everyone-this is my first post, Frontsiderocker _________________________________________________________________ It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger today! http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Sun Apr 20 19:17:00 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 15:17:00 EDT Subject: What about Buckbeak? Message-ID: <147.fb53094.2bd44c2c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55714 While Sirius is off watching the Triwizard Tournament and collecting the "old gang", where is Buckbeak? Do we even know if Sirius still has him? This also brings up the question of is he even still in danger. Can the MoM tell the difference between Hippogriffs? I would imagine that only the people who are trained could tell the difference. It would be like me trying to figure out which horse is which - I'm not trained to know. ======== ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ (Who's technical first anniversary on this list isn't until the 24th, but she'll be in Disney World and wishes everyone here a great week!) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From erinellii at yahoo.com Sun Apr 20 17:19:39 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 17:19:39 -0000 Subject: Why don't we know more about Ravenclaw? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55715 You know, we really don't know anything about Ravenclaw. Only a couple of students' names. Harry has no classes with them, we don't know who their head of house is, or their ghost either. Who wants to bet that Sinistra is the head? Anyone got any ideas on this? "Erin" From suzchiles at pobox.com Sun Apr 20 19:19:25 2003 From: suzchiles at pobox.com (Suzanne Chiles) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 12:19:25 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Scarlet Weasley In-Reply-To: <43.1b87650c.2bd4461d@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55716 Jodel said: > Take this a little further. Among people in the know, Percy's > reputation is > already a bit dodgy since it is known that his promotion to > Crouch's personal > assistant was engineered from outside by Voldemort. Can you cite a reference to this fact? I know that Percy was used by Voldemort in that he recieved notes that were presumably from Crouch Sr., but I know of no canon that suggests Voldemort engineered Percy getting that job in the first place. Suzanne From erinellii at yahoo.com Sun Apr 20 17:56:07 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 17:56:07 -0000 Subject: Molly and Arthur's Ages Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55717 > "bill" wrote: > > > > Molly's stories about Ogg, which never mention Hagrid. > > > > > > "Darrin" wrote: > > > Molly and Arthur probably never knew Hagrid, who was > thrown out of Hogwarts in 1942-43, until the late 1970s when > > Bill and Charlie started attending. Even then, they might have > >just heard of him for several years from Bill and Charlie's > >school Now Me: Everyone seems to assume that just because the text doesn't specifically mention Molly including Hagrid in her stories about Ogg, that Hagrid wasn't there at the same time Molly and Arthur were. I think, however, that there could be many many reasons why she doesn't include him even if he was there. For one thing, most of her stories were probably about sneaking out with Mr. Weasley and getting caught. Hagrid doesn't strike me as the type of person who punishes students for that sort of thing, so Molly would have no reason to include him in those stories. For another, Mrs Weasley seems to be focusing on the DIFFERENCES between the time when she was at Hogwarts and now (the whomping willow, etc.) If Hagrid was there both at times, he wouldn't be one of those differences. Like, you don't hear her telling stories about Dumbledore, because he was there both times as well. Also, Hagrid IS still currently working at the school. If Mrs. Weasley knew a good story about him, she might not tell it because she wouldn't want Harry and Ron to go repeating it to him. Or, since if Hagrid WAS there with the weasleys it would have been soon after he was expelled and was still in training, Mrs Weasley might think stories about him from that time could be too embarrassing or painful to tell. And also, it never says in canon that Hagrid is NOT mentioned. One of those stories could very well have been about how Ogg trained Hagrid. So I conclude that there is simply not enough evidence to assume that the Weasleys were in school before Hagrid from that one brief sentence in GoF. Maybe future books will help to clear this up. Erin From d_lea25 at yahoo.ca Sun Apr 20 19:27:16 2003 From: d_lea25 at yahoo.ca (Lea) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 15:27:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] What about Buckbeak? In-Reply-To: <147.fb53094.2bd44c2c@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030420192716.19344.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55718 SnapesSlytherin at aol.com wrote: >Can the MoM tell imagine that only the people who >are trained could tell the difference. It >would be like me trying to figure >out which horse is which - I'm not trained to >know. And me: In the case of poor Buckbeak, I'm sure the MoM does know what he looks like - if you recall, when Hagrid went to London back in April (I think I have the date right??? ) to answer to the charges against him, he had to take Buckbeak with him. I'm sure at this time Buckbeak would have been seen by members of MoM, so they know exactly which hippograff has been condemned to death. I'm sure there's a poster out for him now - Have you seen this Hippograff? Poor Buckbeak. Lea :) --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From amani at charter.net Sun Apr 20 19:33:36 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 15:33:36 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why don't we know more about Ravenclaw? References: Message-ID: <00f201c30773$bd028bc0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55719 Erin: You know, we really don't know anything about Ravenclaw. Only a couple of students' names. Harry has no classes with them, we don't know who their head of house is, or their ghost either. Who wants to bet that Sinistra is the head? Anyone got any ideas on this? Me: Actually, JKR has stated that Flitwick is the head of Ravenclaw. (http://www.yahooligans.com/content/chat/jkrowlingchat.html) I seem to be sitting here /remembering/ JKR said the Grey Lady is the Ravenclaw ghost in an interview somewhere, but I can't seem to find it. Anyone else have info on that? --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bard7696 at aol.com Sun Apr 20 19:45:17 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 19:45:17 -0000 Subject: Snape at the end of GoF In-Reply-To: <001101c3076f$704d8a40$bb04a6d8@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55720 Amanda wrote: > For those of you who have missed this particular theme of mine (for it has > been long since I harped it onlist), I think Snape has never really bothered > to perceive anything about Harry. I think his immediate and lasting way of > dealing with Harry was by dealing with him the way he wished James had been > dealt with. In his view, James and his friends were always breaking rules > and getting away with murder, and so he is doing his best to keep Harry from > doing that. Probably equal parts of sublimation and revenge, both > subconscious, with a conscious intent to protect and enforce the rules. > As for Draco, Snape lets him get away with stuff, because he, Snape, doesn't > think *he* got away with stuff. If Harry et al. is James et al., Draco is > Snape. The emotional reactions and "programming" were set years ago; Snape's > been on "reactionary autopilot" where these children are concerned, ever > since they met him. Only now, now that things have taken a serious turn and > contingency plans have been activated, only now is Snape looking at Harry > and seeing Harry more than he is seeing the past. > > In my opinion, also, none of this is conscious. Snape is a proud, grown man > and has much more to do with his life than lie awake thinking of how to make > this child's life miserable. I think if he realized what he's doing, he'd > stop. There are loads of ways to validate how he treats all of them, and he > does this. It *is* a good idea to enforce rules. Your interpretation of his reaction to Harry makes sense, although I think his treatment of Draco can be given a more practical explanation. Simply put, he cannot have Draco running to Lucius, talking about how Snape isn't bending over backwards for him. It holds true for his treatment of Hermione as well, which really didn't kick into high gear until after Draco and his "mudblood" routine in CoS. I've long suggested that Snape is maintaining a cover that is natural for him to maintain. I've long believed that he loved his status as a DE and it was something external -- the life debt to James, his love for Lily, some loyalty to Dumbledore -- that ripped him away from what he saw as a good thing. He doesn't like who he is fighting with and really doesn't hate who he is fighting against, but his code of honor and perhaps magical covenants prevent him from living the life he truly wants to live, which makes him miserable. You may have heard me say this before, but I think that if Snape is still alive after the big showdown, he gets away from the little Hogwarts brats as soon as possible. > And I personally think that he is, consciously, exercising a subtle revenge > on the Malfoys by indulging Draco so; for Draco will be supremely unprepared > to face any challenge or danger (unlike Harry, who already has experience > with both, and much of whose ability to weather adversity comes from dealing > with Snape). He cannot take the postive action of encouraging or helping > Harry--for reasons both conscious and sub--but he can take the negative > action of weakening Harry's enemy. Makes sense, although unless something changes, Draco is so far away from being Harry's enemy that it doesn't make sense. When you've beaten Quirrellmort, slain a Basilisk, conjured up a patronus to fend off dementors and clashed wands with He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, nothing Draco does seems all that important. Draco needs boosting if he is to be a credible enemy. > And Amanda's Take on Snape, for the record and to state this again publicly > closer to the release of OoP > > I think Snape loved Lily. > > I do *not* think they had any kind of a "thing" going or were ever a couple. > I think he loved her and loves her still; I think he worked himself up to > confess it to her; I think she let him down easy so that he does not hate > her; I think she only later became James' girl. > I realize this crosses canon in the form of Dumbledore's comparison of James and Snape to Harry and Draco, but I think it would be interesting if prior to Snape falling for Lily, James and Snape were friendly. > I think Snape harbors a secret horrible fear that Lily told James about this, which adds strength to his hatred of James. > And if she told James, it's a safe bet James told Sirius and Lupin, which adds all the more humiliation to Snape. Yeah, I'd buy this. I'd also buy that Lily was the one who begged (or demanded) James go rescue Snape from the Shrieking Shack. > I think Snape asked Voldemort to spare Lily, and Voldemort said he would, > and then did not. Voldemort thus transgressed, according to Snape's code, > and both Voldemort and Snape know Snape thinks this. This is my reason for > believing Snape is the DE who "I believe has left me forever." And I think > it *is* the final reason he will not truly completely go back, in his heart, > to Voldemort. I think Dumbledore knows all this as well, which is why he > trusts Snape so. Also the reason why Voldemort should not be accepting Snape back into the fold. Perhaps V-Mort has forgotten all about it, or Snape talks his way around it. OR, V-Mort accepts Snape, knowing that he's a spy, which makes Our Man Severus in a pretty sticky spot. > I think Snape's task was to return to Voldemort, pretend to have been loyal > all these years, and resume spying. I think Dumbledore's anxiety is that the > temptation of Snape's old ways and power (for he would hardly have been an > effective spy unless he were highly placed) might be very strong. I think > the glitter in Snape's eyes is what Porphyria analyzed it to be-- for Snape's > eyes glitter whenever he is being angry, cruel, or calculating; to see it > there, as he goes to do his task, worries Dumbledore. He also, to Harry, "looked slightly paler" than usual as well as having glittering eyes, which could indicate fear, a sensible emotion to feel, going back to Voldermort. Again, I hope it's more complicated that just going back and saying: "Hi Uncle Voldie, I'm back. What's the plan?" Darrin -- Hiya Amanda. Long time no see. From pennylin at swbell.net Sun Apr 20 19:59:44 2003 From: pennylin at swbell.net (pennylin) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 14:59:44 -0500 Subject: SHIPping Attitudes References: Message-ID: <01e901c30777$6391fb80$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 55721 Hi all -- --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "derannimer" wrote: > See, there's nothing wrong with saying you see no evidence for a > theory, as long as you acknowledge that someone else *does* see it, > and that they aren't necessarily doing so from sheer intellectual > dishonesty. (See Angua's recent assertion that one could only be H/H from--paraphrase--a "stubborn romanticizing and eroticizing impulse.") Angua responded: <<<>>>>>>> Actually, we can't know what Hermione's feelings are for Harry in GoF (or in any of the other canon) because we don't have access to Hermione's feelings or thoughts. One also need not "deny" a direction assertion of the author to believe that Hermione's feelings for Harry might not be entirely platonic as of GoF either..........JKR stated that Harry and Hermione *are* platonic friends [in GoF]." That is certainly true, and I don't know how anyone could deny it. We have Harry's POV, so we would *know* if they were other than platonic in GoF. They were not. Again, I've always believed the "they are platonic" comment to be applicable to GoF only, given the use of present tense, and now that we've heard JKR say that "certain feelings" between the three of them will come into play, I'm even more convinced that the "platonic friends" comment was as limited and narrow in time scope as I've always believed. <<<>>>>>>> You left off a belief that Harry and Hermione are quite well-suited for one another, just to name one other example (and a corrollary belief, at least in some cases, that Ron and Hermione are particularly ill-suited). Curious the whole "tragedy over comedy" line though. I must say I don't understand that. Why must H/H end up being "tragic" in order to come off? And ....well.......I .........er.......don't find Ron and Hermione's interactions to be particularly comic either so there you go. :--) Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From laurence59 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 20 21:28:15 2003 From: laurence59 at yahoo.com (laurence59) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 21:28:15 -0000 Subject: Snape at the end of GoF and Snape's danger In-Reply-To: <001101c3076f$704d8a40$bb04a6d8@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55722 I think Snape loved Lily. I do *not* think they had any kind of a "thing" going or were ever a couple. I think he loved her and loves her still; I think he worked himself up to confess it to her; I think she let him down easy so that he does not hate her; I think she only later became James' girl. I LOVE your idea. COuld this also what Dumbledore is going to tell Harry in OotP? Another thought of mine... In the trial where Karkarov named names and in particular, he named Snape. Dumbledore then stood up and said that Snape turned spy against Voldemort. As these trials are reported (Rita Skeeter was in Bagman's), would it not be unreasonable to suggest that LV knows about Snape's spying and would therefore not welcome him back into the fold. Even if they are not reported, people who were in the trial may talk about it... Just a thought Laurence From bard7696 at aol.com Sun Apr 20 22:01:09 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 22:01:09 -0000 Subject: Snape at the end of GoF and Snape's danger In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55723 > Another thought of mine... In the trial where Karkarov named names > and in particular, he named Snape. Dumbledore then stood up and said that Snape turned spy against Voldemort. As these trials are reported(Rita Skeeter was in Bagman's), would it not be unreasonable to suggest that LV knows about Snape's spying and would therefore not > welcome him back into the fold. Even if they are not reported, people > who were in the trial may talk about it... > > Just a thought > > > Laurence Excellent point. My first thought was maybe that the trial was closed for Karakoff's protection, but GoF UK pg 512 makes reference to a "watching crowd" at the trial, which, even if it doesn't include a reporter, would seem to be enough people to render any secret information useless. And regardless, we know that Karakoff knows, because he was on the stand when Dumbledore said it. That means that when V-Mort catches up to him, he's got some dirt on Snape to trade for his life. Snape might be able to talk his way out of a problem and get back in Voldemort's good graces. Especially, as has been pointed out, since Snape is in a very powerful position, with easy access to Dumbledore and Harry. V-Mort just might not be able to resist. Still, I think we've pointed out some problems if Snape's task was to go back to V-Mort and say, "Here I am, boss. What do you want me to do?" From catlady at wicca.net Sun Apr 20 22:25:54 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 22:25:54 -0000 Subject: Protecting Privet Drive/witches'menopause/Animagi/RiddleLust/Hagrid Fan Club Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55724 Sheena "Mors mordre" wrote: << Did dumbledore place any other protection spells on Number 4? If so, he would not have had the time to do it before (at least not what we saw of it) Harry arrived with Hagrid. And then Harry is left unprotected for hours alone on Number 4's door step. >> It is an accepted Mystery that there were 24 hours between the time Hagrid picked up baby Harry in the ruins of the Godric's Hollow house and the time Hagrid dropped off baby Harry at Four Privet Drive. That gives Dumbledore 24 hours to set up protections. It has been suggested that the balls of orange light that flew from his Putter-Outer to the light posts on Privet Drive were not mere light, but were protective spells or monitoring spells to guard baby Harry. Pat Gruenke wrote: << As a nearly-forty year old, I would shudder to think about another 20 years of childbearing! The WW doesn't age slower than the rest of the world, they live longer. Harry and co. seem to go through puberty at the correct time, not in their 30's. >> The wizarding folk DO age slower than the rest of the world, once they reach adulthood. McGonagall is "a spritely 70" according to a JKR interview, but she still has black hair and doesn't look anywhere near as cold as Dame Maggie Smith (nor as me, a Muggle of 45). My theory of wizarding aging is in: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/41510 JKR's own drawing of McGonagall looking like she's 30 in Muggle years is in the HPfGU Yahoo!Group Photo Section http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/lst , click on "Harry Potter and Me" which is the second folder, click on "dursleys" which is the fifth pic. http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript2.htm Q: How old is old in the wizarding world, and how old are Professors Dumbledore and McGonagall? JKR: Dumbledore is a hundred and fifty, and Professor McGonagall is a sprightly seventy. Wizards have a much longer life expectancy than Muggles. (Harry hasn't found out about that yet.) http://www.comicrelief.com/harrysbooks/pages/transcript.shtml Q: How old are Professor Dumbledore and Professor Snape? JKR: Dumbledore's about 150 years old... wizards have a longer life expectancy than us Muggles, Snape's 35 or 6. << Pardon me for not quoting chapter and verse, but IIRC Ron once said something about "If we hadn't married Muggles, we would have died out." If you could have babies for over forty years, I don't think dying out would be a problem! >> I believe that the purebloods have more deaths than births, possibly because their fertility is lowered by in-breeding, or possibly because they just don't like babies much, and I believe that the wizarding folk have Excellent magical contraception, so they don't have babies they don't want. Jazmyn wrote: << I do not believe that one has a set pre-determined form that is 'their form'. I believe that the wizard CHOOSES the form and practices that one form for a long time till they perfect it. Like Krum chose a shark due to the Tri Wizard Tournament, but didn't practice long enough to get the whole form. It would be too great a coincidence to think that his 'form' would just happen to be aquatic. >> Tammy Rizzo and Taryn Kimel are right about the JKR interviews and about Krum having TRANSFIGURED himself rather than being a shark Animagus. Here are the interviews in which JKR confirmed that the Animagus doesn't get to choose his/her animal form, but instead the animal form is a reflection of his/her personality. http://www.geocities.com/aberforths_goat/October_2000_Live_Chat_Americ a_Online.htm Q: Does the animal one turns into as an Animagi reflect your personality? JKR: Very well deduced, Narri! I personally would like to think that I would transform into an otter, which is my favorite animal. Imagine how horrible it would be if I turned out to be a cockroach! http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript2.htm Q: If you were Animagus, what kind of animal would you be? A: I'd like to be an otter -- that's my favourite animal. It would be depressing if I turned out to be a slug or something. << I believe the Marauders chose their forms. James and Sirius picking forms that were common enough that they could study the real animals first and fast enough to keep up with a werewolf. Peter likely was not brave enough to want to run with a werewolf and picked a form that allowed him to sneak into places easier. Again, it being too much a coincidence that they have such 'useful' forms for them to not have picked their own. Otherwise they might have been 3 totally useless animals for the purpose they were using the forms for.. say.. a sloth, a goldfish and a white rabbit? >> I'm inclined to agree that a goldfish would have been pretty useless, but a sloth and a white rabbit would have been fine for their original intention, which was simply to hang out with their friend while he was in werewolf form. They couldn't be with him as humans, because werewolves (except with Wolfsbane Potion) have a total compulsion to attack any human in their presence, but they would be with him as animals, because the werewolf is able to control himself from attacking non-humans, even ones that are normal wolf prey animals. Later, when they became Animagi, having such useful forms was a piece of luck which enabled them to make a new plan, to go run around at night with the werewolf. Here's the quotes from PoA: "They couldn't keep me company as humans, so they kept me company as animals," said Lupin. "A werewolf is only a danger to people." and "highly exciting possibilities were open to us now that we could all transform. Soon we were leaving the Shrieking Shack and roaming the school grounds and the village by night." Erin wrote: << Who exactly is Riddle supposed to be feeling lust FOR? (snip) there has never really been an appropriate moment for Riddle to express any other "feelings" he might have. >> You're right about the context, but he *might* have mentioned it during his rants,such as, when Riddle boasted: "No, Harry - I fashioned myself a new name, a name I knew wizards everywhere would one day fear to speak, when I had become the greatest sorcerer in the world!", he might have thrown in something about "and desired by all the most beautiful witches." Many people would, not just 16-year-olds. Darrin wrote: << After all, besides the HRH trio, how many students actually interacted with Hagrid before he became the Care of Magical Creatures teacher? >> The ones who wrote the letters: "Living proof of what I've been telling you, Hagrid," said Dumbledore, still looking carefully up at the ceiling. "I have shown you the letters from the countless parents who remember you from their own days here, telling me in no uncertain terms that, if I sacked you, they would have something to say about it --" From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Sun Apr 20 22:51:03 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 22:51:03 -0000 Subject: There is a Sorting (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55725 There is a Sorting To the tune of There is a Sucker Born Ev'ry Minute, from the 1980 musical Barnum (Cy Coleman & Michael Stewart, first sang by Jim Dale) Dedicated to Haggridd (for introducing me to City of Angels, another Cy Coleman musical) Hear a MIDI at: http://www.broadwaymidi.com/shows/barnum.html NOTE: If Textual Sphinx is correct that the sorting songs are actually written by the Hogwarts faculty, this brash and blustery number may be the work of Gilderoy Lockhart, the closest thing the Potterverse has to a P.T. Barnum . http://home.att.net/~coriolan/faculty/sortinghat.htm THE SCENE: The Great Hall, during the annual sorting ceremony. THE SORTING HAT: (Spoken) Hat is the name, the Hogwarts Sorting Hat. And whether you think my singing is splendid or accursed, you're still going to listen. Because every time I plop down upon a Firstie noggin, a delightful phenomenon takes place that absolutely guarantees it (music) There is a Sorting done when I'm on it Each time that I am placed upon a skull A process quite remarkable Occurs right here as I decide Which of four ways you're classified at Hogwarts This clever bonnet Is now all set to let you meet your future peers 'Cause at the Start-of-Term, the Sorting Hat is on it As I recite for you this sonnet true, my dears.... (The HAT slides the entire length of the Ravenclaw table, then springs over to Slytherin) Of our four Founders, I'll tell the tale About a thousand or so years it seems Ago they had this lofty dream To educate young acolytes In all the wisdom and the rites of magic Nor did they fail For their pupils they these quadruple dorms decreed Since then at Start-of-Term, the Sorting Hat is on it For due to an odd trick of ol' Godric, that's me! (This year, instead of waiting on the stool as the students come to him, the HAT flies around the room, landing on random assorted first- year craniums) If I discern that you're an Al Einstein Who revels in the life of mind Then I'm inclined to call for Ravenclaw If of courage you've a whiff in store You'd better go to Gryffindor The house that is a huge filk-maven draw If you're a kid who's prone to juxtapose The grindstone and your own known nose Then you're for Hufflepuff (beside the salad bar) And if your bent's Medici-an With just a trace of Nietzschean Then, you, young friend, I'll plunk straight down with Salazar For you're at Hogwarts, hey, all right! And here's our headline show tonight .. ..A Sorting done when I'm on it Each time that I stroke a frontal lobe An inmost self I then behold And it's my job to organize The dark, the brave, the meek, the wise in houses This witty bonnet Is now all set to let you meet your future crew 'Cause at the Start-of-Term the Sortin' Hat is on it (The HAT spies the smallest & most timid of the First-Years) And friend, I now purport the next I'll sort is..... (The HAT laughs exuberantly) ...........you! (The HAT lands on the head of the terrified Firstie. Black-out) - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm (update 4/20/03 with 52 new filks) From bard7696 at aol.com Sun Apr 20 23:23:18 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 23:23:18 -0000 Subject: Protecting Privet Drive/witches'menopause/Animagi/RiddleLust/Hagrid Fan Club In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55726 > Darrin wrote: > > << After all, besides the HRH trio, how many students actually > interacted with Hagrid before he became the Care of Magical Creatures > teacher? >> > Then Catlady: > The ones who wrote the letters: "Living proof of what I've been > telling you, Hagrid," said Dumbledore, still looking carefully up at > the ceiling. "I have shown you the letters from the countless parents > who remember you from their own days here, telling me in no uncertain > terms that, if I sacked you, they would have something to say about > it --" Yeah, OK, I forgot about them. :) Oddly enough though, no other students besides the Trio in the first two books seem to interact with Hagrid on a friendly level. Anyway, the point was made that just because Molly talks about Ogg the Gamekeeper doesn't mean Hagrid wasn't there in some form. I think that still holds true. From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Apr 20 23:32:00 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 23:32:00 -0000 Subject: SHIPping Attitudes In-Reply-To: <01e901c30777$6391fb80$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55727 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pennylin" wrote: >> now that we'veheard JKR say that "certain feelings" between the three of them will come intoplay, I'm even more convinced that the "platonic friends" comment was aslimited and narrow in time scope as I've always believed.<< I'm coming in late here, so forgive me if I missed something, but has anybody pointed out that it's also a more mature feeling to be able to accept a hug from your platonic friend without discomfort? Hermione's a hugger, and IIRC in canon it makes both boys uncomfortable right up through the end of GoF, where Harry gets a hug and doesn't fend her off (but it's undercut by the Kiss). If JKR wants us to see Ron and Hermione's first mutual hug as a Big Moment, she (and Kloves) are building up to it the right way. Pippin From hp at plum.cream.org Mon Apr 21 00:05:01 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 01:05:01 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] re: PS/SS title change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030421010112.00966c00@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 55728 At 19:00 20/04/03 , erinellii wrote: >Wait a minute, "magnum Opus" just means "greatest work", right? >Cause I'm sure I've heard people refer to their novels that >way..."This is my Magnum Opus".... I know I've never heard of it >as an alternate title for the philosopher's stone, and I'd heard of >the legend before. The Philosopher's Stone is the magnum opus (in the term's literal sense, as translated above) of alchemy, i.e. the ultimate achievement in that art. I've heard that term before, and there are others as well. See here for an explanation: http://www.crystalinks.com/philosopherstone.html -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who's still trying to catch up on the last month's-worth of posts... From connie23 at iprimus.com.au Sun Apr 20 23:31:01 2003 From: connie23 at iprimus.com.au (Mac) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 09:31:01 +1000 Subject: Re Power of Magic In-Reply-To: <1050814630.3723.66074.m11@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030421090550.00a45210@pop.iprimus.com.au> No: HPFGUIDX 55729 Amy Z said in response to my post It isn't just a matter of saying a couple of words, or else the kids could just memorize vocabulary lists and they'd be able to do all those advanced things like make their nose hair grow into ringlets. Hermione *does* learn things out of books ("Alohomora!"), but it takes work beyond learning the words, and I think it takes more than what we might call "natural ability" as well. Hermione's a natural; so, it seems, is Harry, at least at some kinds of magic. But it's more than that, and more than the swishing and flicking they learn in class as well. And Mac (who is a "she" by the way) responds: My initial reaction was that Hermione was a lot more adept at spell magic than Harry. Not only had she memorised a lot of spells, but I cannot recall an instance where she misused a spell or where a spell failed to work for her. I agree that I feel that magic is a natural ability - or more precisely, a talent. Just as some people take to playing a musical instrument almost without effort, I am totally hopeless at it and could never get that natural co-ordination between the music, my brain and my fingers. It's a talent I lack. I could be taught to read music and to understand how it works, but actually making it work is something I can't do - because I have virtually no musical talent. If magic were music, I'd be a squib at best. I guess the reason I asked about how people feel magic works in Rowling's books is because I'm not exactly certain how it DOES work. Granted some people have magical ability and some don't - hence the world is split into wizards/witches and muggles. (Somehow apparently Dumbledore or the Powers that Be sense that and the kids get an invite to attend Hogwarts, after which even totally muggle parents would be aware of the magic world. I wonder if they have to sign a Secrecy Pledge, rather like one does when going to work for a sensitive government agency.) So if you equate Hogwarts to something like the Academy of Music, where musically talented children are sent for an education, then you have some children who are prodigies, some who are very skilled and the remaining majority who are just technically competent. The music is the same for all. The notes are there to be read and played. I'm beginning to think that this is something like Rowling had in mind. Anyone can open a piece of sheet music and reel off what the notes are - but only the musically talented can take the sheet music and turn it into something like the composer intended. Dumbledore, for instance, could perhaps spin out Snape's Expeliamus and knock half the student body through a window. Ron might only manage to lift Hermione's cat. It may be a matter of degree + ability = strength. But I still have to wonder - could any 12 year-old twirl her/his wand and say the death curse and kill someone? Mac From meboriqua at aol.com Mon Apr 21 01:26:02 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 01:26:02 -0000 Subject: Prefects Who Gained Power In-Reply-To: <20030420174544.91809.qmail@web20009.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55730 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rebecca Stephens wrote: > Um, I thought that it was Crouch Sr. handwriting. > That he was writing the letters, under the imperious > curse. But don't hold me to it.> That makes sense. Crouch certainly could have been the one continuing all MOM correspondences while under Imperius. Here is what Percy wrote in a letter to Ron, though, in GoF, Ch. 28: "I think I can be trusted to know my own superior's handwriting". Even if it was Crouch's own handwriting on memos and such to Percy, I guess I still find it odd that he never thinks to question Crouch's long absence from work, other than to accept that Crouch (who seemed to be a workaholic by all standards) was "taking a well-deserved break". Again, Percy doesn't even call Crouch on his mis-naming Percy; he simply accepts everything Crouch does and says. Every once in a while I see someone wearing the pin that says "Question Authority". Percy would benefit from that pin's advice. I wonder what people act like under Imperius - and how they seem to others. Oh, and welcome back, Darrell! --jenny from ravenclaw, who does like Percy very much, even though I'm not saying such nice things about him here ***************** From bard7696 at aol.com Mon Apr 21 01:46:43 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 01:46:43 -0000 Subject: Prefects Who Gained Power In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55731 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jenny_ravenclaw" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rebecca Stephens > wrote: > > > Um, I thought that it was Crouch Sr. handwriting. > > That he was writing the letters, under the imperious > > curse. But don't hold me to it.> > > That makes sense. Crouch certainly could have been the one continuing > all MOM correspondences while under Imperius. Here is what Percy > wrote in a letter to Ron, though, in GoF, Ch. 28: "I think I can be > trusted to know my own superior's handwriting". > > Even if it was Crouch's own handwriting on memos and such to Percy, I guess I still find it odd that he never thinks to question Crouch's > long absence from work, other than to accept that Crouch (who seemed > to be a workaholic by all standards) was "taking a well-deserved > break". Again, Percy doesn't even call Crouch on his mis-naming > Percy; he simply accepts everything Crouch does and says. > > Every once in a while I see someone wearing the pin that says > "Question Authority". Percy would benefit from that pin's advice. > The only thing I can think of is that Percy was so flabbergasted to be put in charge -- I mean, surely there were others at the ministry that could have taken over instead of an 18-year-old kid fresh out of school -- that he decided not to question anything. When Crouch wrote to say, "Weatherby is in charge," what must the Deputy Minister or whatever the second-in-charge over there is called have thought? I would bet that V-Mort told Crouch to put Percy in charge, figuring that an 18-year-old would be too bogged down to question much of anything. I don't believe in Evil!Percy, but I do believe, that like Fudge, Bagman and even Hagrid, he has weaknesses that can be exploited. Darrin -- This is my brother Darrell, this is my other brother Darrell From pennylin at swbell.net Mon Apr 21 01:55:55 2003 From: pennylin at swbell.net (pennylin) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 20:55:55 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIPping Attitudes References: Message-ID: <022f01c307a9$260057d0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 55732 Hi -- --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pennylin" wrote: >> now that we'veheard JKR say that "certain feelings" between the three of them will come intoplay, I'm even more convinced that the "platonic friends" comment was aslimited and narrow in time scope as I've always believed.<< Pippin replied: <<<>>>>>> I'm not sure I'm following the transition from Rowling conceding that the romance angle involves feelings between all *3* members of the Trio to a R/H Big Moment. :--) Has Hermione hugged Ron in our presence other than the one time in PoA after the legendary Crookshanks/Scabbers fight make-up? In that case, Ron looked as uncomfortable as Harry did when Hermione hugged him in the Potions Scene. And, I believe those are the only two instances of Hermione hugging either boy *in the books.* Is that right or have I missed any? If true, then I'd say Rowling as the author might be making a bigger statement since Harry's first memory of female affection comes from Hermione's giving him a hug. In any case, as far as the movie goes, IMO, it's *Columbus* who is the big R/H shipper (the whole "tension" in the final scene in the movie was allegedly his idea). I'm firmly convinced that Kloves is H/H, though I naturally have no proof; it's just a gut instinct. Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From metslvr19 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 21 02:11:52 2003 From: metslvr19 at yahoo.com (Laura) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 02:11:52 -0000 Subject: Animagi In-Reply-To: <3EA26482.19285.5D6DE60@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55733 Tammy wrote: > > > As for Krum at the TriWizard Tournament, I believe his part shark form was not an attempt at an Animagus, but was rather a 'simple' cross-species transformation, a spell obviously taught at the higher grades. Then, too, the narrative states, "He appeared to have transfigured himself -- but badly." Transfigured, not transformed. > > > "A spell obviously taught at higher grades." Or, actually, as 4th years. How convenient that I was reading GoF today and ran across 2 relevant passages? =) (all citations are from U.S. paperback) Ch 15: Beauxbatons and Durmstrang, p. 236-237 "Longbottom, kindly do *not* reveal that you can't even perform a simple Switching Spell in front of anyone from Durmstrang!" Professor McGonagall barked at the end of one particularly difficult lesson, during which Neville had accidentally transplanted his own ears onto a cactus. Ch. 22: The Unexpected Task p.385 It was at the end of the lesson; they had finished their work; the guinea fowl they had been changing into guinea pigs had been shut away in a large crate on Professor McGonagall's desk (Neville's still had feathers); they had copied down their homework ("Describe, with examples, the ways in which Transforming Spells must be adapted when performing Cross-Species Switches"). Quotation 1 being from just before Halloween and Quotation 2 being from early-mid December, I think we can safely assume that at least half of Transfiguration lessons as 4th years are dedicated to transforming between species and switching "parts" of species back and forth, which seems to be at least the basis of Krum's attempt at The Second Task. Interestingly enough, Neville's incompetance is mentioned in *both* passages. Hmmm. -Larua (who can't *wait* to find out the deal with Neville, and dearly hopes its addressed, at least somewhat, in OOP) From jodel at aol.com Mon Apr 21 03:20:28 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 23:20:28 EDT Subject: The Scarlet Weasley Message-ID: <188.185e9e89.2bd4bd7c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55734 Suzanne asks me; > Can you cite a reference to this fact? I know that Percy was used by > Voldemort in that he recieved notes that were presumably from Crouch Sr., > but I know of no canon that suggests Voldemort engineered Percy getting > that job in the first place. > The timing. We were told of Percy's promotion when he showed up in Crouch's place for the Yule Ball. Given that Crouch Sr. was under Imperius by the time fake!Moody showed up at Hogwarts, anything that Crouch did after the QWC (in August) can be assumed to have been at Voldemort's direction. Percy was in Crouch's Department, but was not Crouch's personal assistant at the time of the QWC. Finding Percy already in Crouch's Department must have looked like a gift from the gods to Voldemort and Wormtail -- who knew exactly how to word any communication to Percy in the way it would raise the fewest suspicions. They were abe to engineer "Weatherby"'s promotion and remove Crouch from the public eye much sooner than they might have otherwise. -JOdel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com Mon Apr 21 03:44:40 2003 From: sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com (sevenhundredandthirteen) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 03:44:40 -0000 Subject: Voldemort and the Garden of Eden. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55735 Voldemort and the Garden of Eden. Christian Mythology in the Graveyard. The potion that Voldemort uses to resurrect himself in the graveyard is very similar to the creation of Eve from Genesis in the bible. Voldemort uses the combination of: "Flesh, Blood and Bone" (Chapter 32 GoF) And in the bible, Eve is created as such: "Bone taken from my bone and flesh from my flesh." (Genesis 2:23) The uses of flesh and bone to create Eve from Adam is very similar to how Voldemort creates his 'version 2' self. (I'll bring up the blood later) So, how could this relate to the future of Voldemort, if his 'birth' parallels the birth of Eve? Well, Eve was the one who was tempted to eat the fruit of knowledge in the garden. "You mat eat the fruit of any tree in the garden, except the tree that gives knowledge of what is good and what is bad. You must not eat the fruit of that tree; if you do, you will die the same day." (Genesis 2:16) Compare this to what Quirellmort says at the end of PS/SS: "There is not good and evil, there is only power and those too weak to seek it." (Chapter 17 'The Man With Two Faces' PS). What I'm getting at is that Voldemort survives on his ideal that there is no good and evil, but if he were to 'eat' is own 'fruit of knowledge' he would become able to discriminate between good and evil. The temptation of the snake could be seen as the temptation of power- Voldemort gets seduced by his own lust of power and ends up with a massive weakness that his 'Version 1' self never had- a conscience. I've so far not mentioned the blood of Harry. I think this can be paralleled to Christ's life. Before His death Jesus uses the motif of His 'blood' being shed as the new covenant- to cleanse the original sin of Adam and Eve. So, I think that Harry's blood may be the intrinsic element of 'good' that Voldemort could eventually be 'afflicted' by. What an ironic end to Voldemort if he was defeated by a piece of good which was inextricably bound to his own life. So, Voldemort (super-evil guy) is seduced by power (the Snake) and creates his body from flesh and bone (Adam and Eve) as well as Harry's blood (Christ's sacrifice) which is pure, hence instilling in Voldemort the ability to realise what is good and bad (the fruit of knowledge). (AN: Voldemort being able to tell what's wrong and right doesn't necessarily have to be a *willing* choice, nor instantaneous. It could end up being an accumulative thing that progresses over time, to which Voldemort has no control. I'm by no means suggesting that the effects have already occurred.) So, in short, I'm theorising that Voldemort's eventual downfall may end up being an issue of conscience, to which he hasn't yet foreseen. ~<(Laurasia)>~ From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com Mon Apr 21 03:56:25 2003 From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 20:56:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SHIPping Attitudes In-Reply-To: <022f01c307a9$260057d0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: <20030421035625.51460.qmail@web21109.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55736 Part of Penny's retort of Pippin's retort of Penny's "toldcha so": > I'm not sure I'm following the transition > from Rowling conceding that the > romance angle involves feelings between > all *3* members of the Trio to a > R/H Big Moment. :--) "Conceding?" Interesting diction, Penny. Still sure you're not on a battleSHIP? [1] Did JKR put her name in the goblet and entered the shipping fray?!? I missed that somehow... [2] For JKR to "compete" in the shipping debate is a bit unfair, ain't it? She does control the ultimate outcome after all. It would be as if when bookies all around the world are taking bets, a la Ludo Bagman, (What? Can't you just see this happen?) JKR places her bet on the underdog...and then proceeded to write into canon the successful launching of the ship that she just bet on... Nope, can't see her participate in a competition in which she'd have such an unfair advantage [3] So, if she hasn't entered the boxing ring as a contender, how can JKR be considered to "concede" anything? In horse racing terms, she'd be the handicapper, not a competitor. The statement "they are platonic friends" proves nothing and disproves nothing. Convenient, eh? As you've transcribed: > "Chris [Columbus] has kind of > foreshadowed in this second film > what I don't do until the 4th book, > which is, you get hints of certain > feelings between the three of them > ......that belong to a slightly > more mature person." This too proves nothing and disproves nothing. No acts of trumping here...no acts of concession either. Heck, you can't even make a strong case for considering more than the minimum of one person actively having feelings from this quote alone. * * * BTW, anyone else not getting ALL of their HPFGU emails from Yahoo? Umm...have we short circuited Yahoo...or is it just me? Petra: "Call me Auntie...Auntie Shipmissile." a n :) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From oppen at mycns.net Mon Apr 21 05:05:58 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 00:05:58 -0500 Subject: I may have found an in-joke... Message-ID: <00a801c307c3$b3671400$f1560043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 55737 Having recently re-read George Orwell's essay on "Boys' Weeklies" in a collection of his essays, I did a web search for "Billy Bunter" and found a website about the whole "Billy Bunter" series. Billy Bunter, the "Fat Owl of the Remove," and the hero of the stories, is in a group called the "Lower Fourth Form," whatever that may mean---in the stories, he's about fifteen. One of his form-mates, though, is a George _Bulstrode._ I wonder if that might have somehow stuck in Our Author's mind when she was creating the stories? Being a Yank, I'm not nearly as familiar with these stories as I would probably be were I British---I've seen passing references to "Billy Bunter" both in British-written fan fiction and the "Judge Dredd" comics. We know that Our Author is busily re-inventing the British "school story"---could it be that she gave Millicent her last name as a sly tip of the topper to these famous old tales? From Frontsiderocker at msn.com Sun Apr 20 19:23:47 2003 From: Frontsiderocker at msn.com (Mark Hewitt) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 20:23:47 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why don't we know more about Ravenclaw? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55738 Erin: >we don't know who their head of house is, or their ghost either. Who > >wants to bet that Sinistra is the head? Anyone got any ideas on this? I thought the Ravenclaw house ghost was the Grey Lady? This would make sense as Ravenclaw was estblished by a woman-(But then again the fat friar is the Hufflepuff house ghost yet Hufflepuff was estblished by a woman) Ravenclaw is the house I like the most-I can't wait to read more about them. Mark _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself with cool emoticons http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Frontsiderocker at msn.com Sun Apr 20 21:34:28 2003 From: Frontsiderocker at msn.com (Mark Hewitt) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 22:34:28 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape at the end of GoF and Snape's danger Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55739 The idea Snape loved Lily is very interesting. Is it possible that even when they were at Hogwarts, that the two Houses (Slythrin and Gryffindor) were like Harry's year paired during lessons-Is there a reason behind this? Frontsiderocker _________________________________________________________________ On the move? Get Hotmail on your mobile phone http://www.msn.co.uk/mobile [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From seana at blazenet.net Sun Apr 20 22:24:20 2003 From: seana at blazenet.net (SeanaR) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 18:24:20 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why don't we know more about Ravenclaw? References: Message-ID: <3EA31E13.7B53414C@blazenet.net> No: HPFGUIDX 55740 Erin wrote: > we don't know who their head of house is, or their ghost either. Actually, I was pretty sure I remembered that Flitwick was the head of Ravenclaw House, and the HP Lexicon confirmed this. It also states that The Grey Lady is Ravenclaw's ghost. Still, though, I do feel that Ravenclaw is neglected (as is Hufflepuff!) seana renay http://seanarenay.livejournal.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cmarsmith at yahoo.com Sun Apr 20 23:10:14 2003 From: cmarsmith at yahoo.com (cmarsmith) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 23:10:14 -0000 Subject: PS/SS title change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55741 > "Charlie" wrote: > > > This American had heard of it before and even knew > > > that another name for it was the Magnum Opus. > >"erinellii": Now me: > Wait a minute, "magnum Opus" just means "greatest work", right? > Cause I'm sure I've heard people refer to their novels that > way..."This is my Magnum Opus".... I know I've never heard of it > as an alternate title for the philosopher's stone, and I'd heard of > the legend before. Me: It's also know by the name Magnum Opus because it was the goal of (virtually) all ancient alchemists: The great work of alchemy. -Charlie From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Mon Apr 21 01:18:49 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 18:18:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape at the end of GoF and Snape's danger In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030421011849.95016.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55742 --- darrin_burnett wrote: > Still, I think we've pointed out some problems > if Snape's task was to > go back to V-Mort and say, "Here I am, boss. > What do you want me to > do?" Me: The prevailing assumption is the Snape was a spy in human form. Yet, Rita Skeeter was able to spy quite efficiently in her form as a beetle. It may well be that Snape is an unregistered animagus too and it was in that form in which he did his spying. Or perhaps he wasn't an animagus previously but has become one in preparation for a time when Voldemort might come back. Lynn (waving as she says hi, nice to meet all of you) ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Mon Apr 21 01:29:17 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 18:29:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hagrid as Gamekeeper (was Re: Protecting Privet Drive/witches'menopause/Animagi/RiddleLust/Hagrid Fan Club In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030421012917.12556.qmail@web21204.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55743 --- darrin_burnett wrote: > Anyway, the point was made that just because > Molly talks about Ogg > the Gamekeeper doesn't mean Hagrid wasn't there > in some form. I think > that still holds true. In CoS p. 230 (UK) Riddle tells Harry that Dumbledore persuaded Dippet to keep Hagrid and train him as gamekeeper after Hagrid was expelled. Therefore, the assumption would be that Hagrid was at Hogwarts when Molly Weasley was there. While there hasn't been mention of a groundskeeper during the time Harry has been at Hogwarts, that doesn't mean there isn't one at present who just has not been named as yet. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Mon Apr 21 02:16:49 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (ladilyndi) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 02:16:49 -0000 Subject: Timeline Question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55744 I keep seeing the timeline for the ages of the eldest Weasleys revolve around Charlie based on when Gryffindor last won the Quidditch Cup. Yet, I don't remember reading anything that says Charlie was in his last year of Hogwarts when Gryffindor won the Cup, only that he was Seeker, which he could have been for six years. In addition, in PS, Ron states that Charlie is studying dragons which would indicate that Charlie had recently left Hogwarts for a specialized degree. My question is why Bill isn't a focus for the timeline based on what Ginny Weasley says in Cos. On p. 238 (UK) Ginny states that she has looked forward to coming to Hogwarts ever since Bill came. That implies Ginny was old enough to know that Bill was going to Hogwarts but Charlie had not yet started Hogwarts. This would mean that the earliest Bill could have started Hogwarts was in 1982 as I wouldn't think Ginny would remember Bill going before she was at least 1 year old. Based on that, Bill would have been born no earlier than 1971. Of course, that puts Charlie being born in 1972 at the earliest, at least five years later than timelines show. Lynn From erinellii at yahoo.com Mon Apr 21 02:45:17 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 02:45:17 -0000 Subject: /RiddleLust/ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55745 > Erin wrote: > << Who exactly is Riddle supposed to be feeling lust FOR? (snip) > there has never really been an appropriate moment for Riddle to > express any other "feelings" he might have. >"Catlady" wrote: > You're right about the context, but he *might* have mentioned it > during his rants,such as, when Riddle boasted: "No, Harry - I > fashioned myself a new name, a name I knew wizards everywhere would > one day fear to speak, when I had become the greatest sorcerer in >the world!", he might have thrown in something about "and desired >by all the most beautiful witches." Many people would, not just 16- >year-olds. Now Me (Erin) Again: Well, this is just getting grosser by the minute, but I've gotta say it: Just because he didn't specifically mention his lust doesn't mean he didn't have it. In fact maybe that WAS a declaration of his lust. Voldy doesn't seem to me to be the kind of person who wants to be desired. He's said what he wants: to be feared. So wouldn't it be more logical for him to just TAKE what he wanted in terms of female companionship? When he's the most powerful wizard in the world, he can take *whatever* he wants. Yuck! And even if he did long for women to desire him, he'd likely never admit to that, especially to Harry. He'd see it as a weakness to be concealed. Erin From the_fox01 at hotmail.com Mon Apr 21 06:59:45 2003 From: the_fox01 at hotmail.com (The Fox) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 02:59:45 -0400 Subject: honorifics Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55746 So if you're a wizard kid, there are different titles by which you're expected to call your elders, right? Adult wizards and witches in the teaching profession are called Professor, with or without their own surnames -- Professor Dumbledore, Professor Sprout, etc. (all of whom may also be called simply "Professor"). Adult wizards who are not teachers are called Mr., with their own surnames; if they have a particular title, this can be used without a name attached. Mr. Weasley, Mr. Malfoy, Mr. Crouch, Mr. Fudge (who may also be called simply "Minister", if I'm not mistaken), Mr. Filch. I expect Hagrid should properly be called Mr. Hagrid, but the kids don't use the honorific because he's a pal. Adult witches who are not teachers are called either Mrs., with their own (okay, with their husbands') surnames, as Mrs. Weasley and Mrs. Diggory; or Madam, with apparently either a surname or a given name, as Madam Hooch, Madam Pomfrey (whose given name we know to be Poppy), Madam Pince, and Madam Rosmerta (whom Hagrid calls simply "Rosmerta"). So: how does one decide if a witch is Mrs. or Madam? I hesitate to conclude that "Madam" is used by unmarried witches; the title "Miss" also exists, we know, because the teachers call the female students Miss Granger and Miss Clearwater and Miss What-have-you. Maybe "Madam" is the wizarding equivalent of "Ms." -- that is, it's used to avoid the question of whether a witch is married or not, whether by others or by the witch herself if she prefers her professional title not to communicate this information? Fox ........... Matthew 7:1 Luke 6:37 ... "You want to tempt the wrath of the whatever from high atop the thing?" -- West Wing ... Come on, Nature Just because I don't feel weak Don't mean I feel so strong. -- the Proclaimers .............................. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From Audra1976 at aol.com Mon Apr 21 07:27:13 2003 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 03:27:13 -0400 Subject: Hermione, Gilderoy, and What Makes a Gryffindor Message-ID: <0DB4122C.63CD21DD.022D3A68@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55747 A day or two ago, somebody brought up the question of what House Gilderoy Lockheart would have been in, assuming he went to Hogwarts. Some of you were also discussing why Hermione wasn't sorted into Ravenclaw. I was thinking that, if anything, Gilderoy Lockheart would have been in Gryffindor, and for the same reason that Hermione is in Gryffindor. The Sorting Hat gets into an individual's mind and finds out what qualities that individual *prizes* in a good wizard, and matches them with the Founder that prized the same qualities. Hermione is very bookish and clever, which are characteristics that Rowena Ravenclaw prized above all others, but Hermione herself does *not* prize these qualities (even though they are her strengths) above courage and perseverence, as she admits to Harry in PS/SS when she is encouraging him to go on after the chess challenge. Hermione *prizes* the same characteristics as Godric Gryffindor prized, so she was sorted into Gryffindor. Likewise, I think it's evident that Gilderoy Lockheart *prizes* bravery over cleverness, hard work, or power. Even though he did not actually perform the brave acts he boasts of in his books, facing down all sorts of dangerous monsters, the image of the brave hero is wants he wants to proport for himself. He wants to attain this brave, laughing-in-the-face-of-danger image over any other. So clearly he indentifies most with the qualities prized by Godric Gryffindor. You might even be able to stretch this theory to place Peter Pettigrew in Gryffindor. His House affiliation has been questioned too. I'm getting too drowsy to come up with something concrete, but maybe someone else can chime in with any evidence that Peter prized the same ideals of Gryffindor even if he didn't exactly embody them. -Audra- From srsiriusblack at aol.com Mon Apr 21 07:47:52 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 03:47:52 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape at the end of GoF and Snape's danger Message-ID: <159.1e80b4b7.2bd4fc28@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55748 Ok... my main problem with Rita Skeeter spying on Voldie and Co is that I don't recall it in the cannon.. Certainly that would have been a major accomplishment in her career..... With what we know of Rita, wouldn't she have been recognised in cannon as one of the, if not the top, foremost known journalists on the enemy?? Perhaps she is one of them? She is certainly maniacal and slimy enough, but I think not..... Rita Skeeter has been displayed to us, the readers, as a journalist of 'Hello' or the 'National Enquirer' Status..... she is NOT a real journalist, but rather, a sensationalist. jmho. Snuffles. "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape at the end of GoF and Snape's danger Date: 4/21/2003 2:54:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com Reply-to: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent from the Internet (Details) --- darrin_burnett wrote: > Still, I think we've pointed out some problems > if Snape's task was to > go back to V-Mort and say, "Here I am, boss. > What do you want me to > do?" Me: The prevailing assumption is the Snape was a spy in human form. Yet, Rita Skeeter was able to spy quite efficiently in her form as a beetle. It may well be that Snape is an unregistered animagus too and it was in that form in which he did his spying. Or perhaps he wasn't an animagus previously but has become one in preparation for a time when Voldemort might come back. Lynn (waving as she says hi, nice to meet all of you) ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Apr 21 08:04:36 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 08:04:36 -0000 Subject: Hagrid as Gamekeeper (was Re: Protecting Privet Drive/witches'menopause/Animagi/ In-Reply-To: <20030421012917.12556.qmail@web21204.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55749 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ladi lyndi wrote: > --- darrin_burnett wrote: > > Anyway, the point was made that just because Molly talks about > > Ogg the Gamekeeper doesn't mean Hagrid wasn't there in some form. > > I think that still holds true. > > > In CoS p. 230 (UK) Riddle tells Harry that > Dumbledore persuaded Dippet to keep Hagrid and > train him as gamekeeper after Hagrid was > expelled. Therefore, the assumption would be > that Hagrid was at Hogwarts when Molly Weasley > was there. While there hasn't been mention of a > groundskeeper during the time Harry has been at > Hogwarts, that doesn't mean there isn't one at > present who just has not been named as yet. > > Lynn bboy_mn: Sorry, but you say 'the assumption would be that Hagrid wa at Hogwarts when Molly was there'. Again, sorry, maybe I should go back up the thread and read more carefully, but I don't see why what you said leads to that conclusion or assumption. I accept that that is your opinion; I see that, but I'm missing the the association that would lead to "Therefore, the assumption would be....". Regarding Gamekeeper, groundskeeper, and Keeper of Keys, let me introduce you to Rubeus Hagrid. PS/SS AM PB pg 59 Harry looked up at the giant. .... "Who are you?" The giant chuckled. "True, I haven't introduced meself. Rubeus Hagrid, Keeper of Keys and Grounds at Hogwarts". Keykeeper Gamekeeper Groundskeeper all Rubeus Hagrid Hagrid was a homeless orphan when he was expelled. His father dead, his mother run off, he was only 13, and (sorry Hagrid) not too bright. I'm confident that they kept him on at Hogwart from the time he was expelled out of the goodness of their hearts, and because they knew if they really took a close look at what happened, they would see that it couldn't have been Hagrid who killed that girl. They were like Fudge; all they cared about was that they had a scapegoat and they could put the incident behind them and not think about it. It would have only take a superficial but objective look to see that spiders don't cause the problems they were seeing. So part of keeping Hagrid at Hogwarts was to cover their own butts. Better to have him close by and under control than out in the world explaining to people what really happened. By the time Hagrid was allowed to go off campus unsupervised, the world had forgotten about what the incident, or knew Hagrid well enough not to care. Just a thought. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Apr 21 08:27:53 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 08:27:53 -0000 Subject: honorifics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55750 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "The Fox" wrote: > ...edited.... > > Adult witches who are not teachers are called ... Madam, with > apparently either a surname or a given name, as Madam Hooch, > Madam Pomfrey (whose given name we know to be Poppy), Madam Pince, > and Madam Rosmerta (whom Hagrid calls simply "Rosmerta"). > > So: how does one decide if a witch is Mrs. or Madam? ..... Maybe > "Madam" is the wizarding equivalent of "Ms." -- that is, it's used > to avoid the question of whether a witch is married or not, whether > by others or by the witch herself if she prefers her professional > title not to communicate this information? > > Fox bboy_mn: Madam was originally used as a courtesy title before a woman's given name, but in modern usage is either used before a woman's surname or title, as in Madam Smith, Madam Chairman, or Madam President. In more general usage, I think the key is age. A young unmarried girl under 30 would be referred to as Miss. For polite but informal courtesy address by someone they know, a woman might be addressed as Miss Jane or Miss Sarah. For more formal situations, Miss Austin or Miss Bernhardt. Unmarried women over 40 would be addressed as Madam. Again, Madam Rosmerta, if you know her and are on friendly but polite terms, or Madam Hooche for more formal circumstances. Age 30 to 40 is kind of the grey area. Just a thought. bboy_mn From the_fox01 at hotmail.com Mon Apr 21 07:21:48 2003 From: the_fox01 at hotmail.com (The Fox) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 03:21:48 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Timeline Question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55751 From: "ladilyndi" >I don't remember reading anything that says Charlie was in his last year of >Hogwarts when Gryffindor won the Cup, only that he was Seeker, which he >could have been for six years. SS ch. 9 "The Midnight Duel" (US hardcover edition, p. 153): '"I tell you, we're going to win that Quidditch cup for sure this year," said Fred. "We haven't won since Charlie left, but this year's team is going to be brilliant. ..."' As well, in PoA it's been seven years since Gryffindor won the cup. So. As of Ron's third year, it's been seven years since Charlie left. This makes Charlie eleven years older than Ron -- if you figure the first year Charlie was gone would have been his eighth year, then the fifth year he was gone would have been his twelfth year; this corresponds to Ron's first year, for a difference of eleven years. Piece of cake. In short: Charlie was born in 1969. :-) >My question is why Bill isn't a focus for the timeline based on what Ginny >Weasley says in Cos. On p. 238 (UK) Ginny states that she has looked >forward to coming to Hogwarts ever since Bill came. That implies Ginny was >old enough to know that Bill was going to Hogwarts but Charlie had not yet >started Hogwarts. This would mean that the earliest Bill could have >started Hogwarts was in 1982 as I wouldn't think Ginny would remember Bill >going before she was at least 1 year old. Based on that, Bill would have >been born no earlier than 1971. Of course, that puts Charlie being born in >1972 at the earliest, at least five years later than timelines show. Charlie cannot have been born later than 1969, so this interpretation of Ginny's line cannot be correct. For "ever since B-Bill came" we must read "ever since Bill was here". Bill has to be older than Charlie, so he can't have been born later than 1968; Ginny was born in 1981, so (you're right) I don't think she can be expected to remember Bill being at school before about 1983; Bill must therefore have left Hogwarts, i.e. been 18 years of age (or thereabouts) no earlier than 1983; so Bill can't have been born any earlier than 1965. Fox _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From ratchick22 at hotmail.com Mon Apr 21 07:23:15 2003 From: ratchick22 at hotmail.com (herm - own - ninny) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 07:23:15 +0000 Subject: Voldemort's goal Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55752 I've been wondering for some time about Voldemort's plan of action now that he's back, new bod and all. Or at least, what is his ultimate goal? Canon is somewhat fuzzy on the subject. He hates Muggles, that's a given, but beyond that I'm not clear on his actual objectives are. >From what I can gather, Voldemort is planning on waging a war of some sort. He has already gathered all acquitted DEs to his side (minus 2), and will likely pursue Azkaban for the imprisoned ones (as Dumbledore suggested to Fudge). He will also try to gain the support of dark creatures like giants and Dementors. So he's gathering an army that will fight the "Good Side" in an attempt to do what? Seize power? Overrule the Ministry of Magic and become the "ruler" of the Wizarding world? This is where my question comes in - what is Voldemort's ultimate goal should he gain control of the Wizarding population? Draco tells Harry and Co. at the end of GoF that Mudbloods and Muggle-lovers will be the first to go. Does that mean that he plans to kill *all* Muggle born wizards and those who support them? This would certainly wipe out a good deal of the wizarding population. What about the Muggles? The *billions* of non-magical people that he so hates? Certainly he can't try to murder them all. The Muggles obviously outnumber the wizard population by a great deal, and add to that number all the "Mudbloods and Muggle-lovers", all versus Voldie and his comparatively small army of DEs. It just doesn't seem like a plausible scenario. So what then is Voldemort planning on doing? what is his ultimate objective should he beat Dumbledore and overrule the Minisrty? dina _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From the_fox01 at hotmail.com Mon Apr 21 08:53:29 2003 From: the_fox01 at hotmail.com (The Fox) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 04:53:29 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: honorifics Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55753 From: "Steve" >Fox wrote: >>So: how does one decide if a witch is Mrs. or Madam? ..... Maybe "Madam" >>is the wizarding equivalent of "Ms." -- that is, it's used to avoid the >>question of whether a witch is married or not, whether by others or by the >>witch herself if she prefers her professional title not to communicate >>this information? > >Madam was originally used as a courtesy title before a woman's given name, >but in modern usage is either used before a woman's surname or title, as in >Madam Smith, Madam Chairman, or Madam President. Do you have a cite for that, out of curiosity? My impression has always been that "madam" (small 'm') was the female equivalent of "sir" (small 's'), a term of courtesy, and that Madam Chairwoman and Madam President are so called because the honorific "Mistress", which used to correspond to the masculine "Mister" (Mr. Chairman, Mr. President) had been so thoroughly corrupted by its connotations of illicit affairs. We borrowed "madam" from the French "Madame", obviously, in which language it is used for married women with their husbands' surnames (and, by extension and by courtesy, for women adult enough that they could be married, giving them what the language sees as the benefit of the doubt [g]). I can think of no situation in which an English-speaking woman married to an English-speaking man whose last name was Smith would be called "Madam Smith". >In more general usage, I think the key is age. A young unmarried girl under >30 would be referred to as Miss. For polite but informal courtesy address >by someone they know, a woman might be addressed as Miss Jane or Miss >Sarah. For more formal situations, Miss Austin or Miss Bernhardt. Unmarried >women over 40 would be addressed as Madam. Again, Madam Rosmerta, if you >know her and are on friendly but polite terms, or Madam Hooche for more >formal circumstances. Age 30 to 40 is kind of the grey area. But the female students in the wizarding world are never called "Miss Hermione" and "Miss Penelope". They're called by their given names alone, or by their surnames with "Miss". (Draco refers to Hermione as "Granger", but as far as I recall he's the only person to call a female student by surname alone.) We don't know the ages, even approximately, of any of the adult women in the wizarding world except Professor McGonagall (for whom we don't need to bother with Ms./Miss/Mrs./Madam distinctions) and Mrs. Weasley. My question is, why do we have Mrs. Diggory and Mrs. Malfoy, but Madam Pomfrey and Madam Hooch? I stand by my earlier theory -- that "Madam" is used by witches whose marital status is irrelevant to the discussion requiring their names. Fox (Ms.) ........... Matthew 7:1 Luke 6:37 ... "You want to tempt the wrath of the whatever from high atop the thing?" -- West Wing ... Come on, Nature Just because I don't feel weak Don't mean I feel so strong. -- the Proclaimers .............................. _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Mon Apr 21 11:30:10 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 04:30:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hagrid as Gamekeeper (was Re: Protecting Privet Drive/witches'menopause/Animagi/ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030421113010.77455.qmail@web21204.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55754 --- Steve wrote: > bboy_mn: > > Sorry, but you say 'the assumption would be > that Hagrid wa at Hogwarts > when Molly was there'. > > Again, sorry, maybe I should go back up the > thread and read more > carefully, but I don't see why what you said > leads to that conclusion > or assumption. I accept that that is your > opinion; I see that, but I'm > missing the the association that would lead to > "Therefore, the > assumption would be....". Me: Some earlier threads which led to my posting mentioned that Dippet wouldn't have wanted to keep Hagrid after he had been expelled and that Dumbledore must have brought Hagrid back to work at Hogwarts after Molly Weasley was there. I was referencing the fact Hagrid didn't have to leave Hogwarts. The association is that Hagrid never left Hogwarts and would therefore lead to the assumption he would have still been there when Molly Weasley went to Hogwarts. And yes, I did forget that Hagrid has another title other than gamekeeper. However, this doesn't mean that the jobs of gamekeeper, growndskeeper and Keeper of the Keys were always held by only one person. They may well have been held by three different people at some point, or two, or combined as they are by Hagrid in PS. Of course, Hagrid now also has the title of teacher. So, in keeping with the various arguments of the thread, just because Molly Weasley remembers a different groundskeeper doesn't mean that Hagrid wasn't there when she was at Hogwarts but rather that she just doesn't mention him. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Mon Apr 21 11:16:13 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 04:16:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape at the end of GoF and Snape's danger In-Reply-To: <159.1e80b4b7.2bd4fc28@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030421111613.74936.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55755 --- srsiriusblack at aol.com wrote: > > Ok... my main problem with Rita Skeeter spying > on Voldie and Co is that I > don't recall it in the cannon.. Certainly that > would have been a major > accomplishment in her career..... > Me: I'm sorry if my response implied that Rita Skeeter was spying on Voldemort as a beetle. Rather, I meant she was spying around Hogwarts as a beetle during GoF and was able to do it quite efficiently without getting caught as seen from articles she was able to publish without people knowing just how she was getting her information. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From nienna_the_weeper at hotmail.com Mon Apr 21 12:33:11 2003 From: nienna_the_weeper at hotmail.com (Louise E) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 12:33:11 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape at the end of GoF and Snape's danger Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55756 Lynn wrote: Yet, Rita Skeeter was able to spy >quite efficiently in her form as a beetle. Snuffles wrote: > >Ok... my main problem with Rita Skeeter spying on Voldie and Co is that I >don't recall it in the cannon.. Certainly that would have been a major >accomplishment in her career..... Me: I think the original message was talking about Rita spying on HRH et al (don't have the book so can't remember exactly who she was spying on, but I remember one instance when Krum removed a beetle from Hermione's hair) and not on Voldemort, that would have been an achievement, and one that I'm sure we would all know about had she accomplished it. Lou She is the cloaked woman in mourning, but she is not Despair, even though Grief is her domain; tears flow from her ceaselessly and her house looks out upon the Walls of the Night. Instead she is Pity and Suffering that brings wisdom and endurance beyond hope; from the waters of her tears much is born that is unlooked for, yet it is often that which sustains life. _________________________________________________________________ Get Hotmail on your mobile phone http://www.msn.co.uk/mobile From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Mon Apr 21 13:00:09 2003 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 13:00:09 -0000 Subject: FILK: "S.P.E.W." Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55757 Gilbert, Rodgers, Lerner, Kander, Flanders--Move aside! Sullivan, Hart (or Hammerstein), Loewe, Ebb , Swann-- you're all passe! Make way for the team of the new millennium, "Amy Z. & Haggridd"! Our first offering is a filk of the Tom Lehrer song "Smut", titled "S.P.E.W." Italicized passages are indicated by enclosing them between asterisks. This filk is dedicated to Joywitch, who ought to write filks herself. S.P.E.W. SCENE: Hermione has come into the Gryffindor common room carrying a roll of parchment and a box. She corners Harry and Ron to tell them all about her newly founded Society for the Promotion Of Elvish Welfare. The box contains membership badges. What has not been revealed until now is that on the parchment that held the S.P.E.W. manifesto, "Stop the Outrageous Abuse of Our Fellow Magical Creatures and Campaign for a Change in Their Legal Status", was also written the organization's anthem. HERMIONE: S.P.E.W.! Let's give the house-elves all they're due. And any sniggering from you Two must be mu-ted. You can't be fickle, Just pay a Sickle Or two and I'll give you a badge made of nickel. Ron can be the Treasurer and Harry can be Secretary, Now in S.P.E.W. We have you two That makes a total of three; isn't that merry? We Will change the non-wand-use decree, House-elves won't have to work for free, Or wear those tea- Towels. Can't you see? *They cook the food we eat, do the dishes, do our laundry, clean our filthy common rooms, dormitories, dungeons, loos, stained-glass windows-- everything! 'Til they're paid, we'll never be satisfied!* (A house-elf wanders in to clean the grate. Hermione takes the opportunity to raise the elf's conciousness.) Not to be nosy, But is that tea-cosy Really all you have to wear? That's not fair. You won't go sockless, You'll be auction block-less Once you stand up for yourselves. *Let's face it, I love elves.* (To Hermione's surprise, underneath that tea-cosy is the familiar ugly face of Dobby.) DOBBY: A hundred weeks this job I seeks; At Hogwarts I is staying. Professor Dumbledore will pay if Dobby wants his paying. That's not all, there's more, Vacations galore! RON: *The house-elves all think that Dobby's depraved, Hermione. They. Like. It. They like being enslaved!* Give in, They think not working is a sin. This is a struggle you can't win. I'm much too thin To lose my din-ner. HERMIONE: Who needs a hobby, like Quidditch or Astronomy? I've got a mission-- winning Elf autonomy. To all who would oppress them, I'm afraid we must be blunt, We cannot fail! We will prevail, the House-Elf Liberation Front! In other words, S.P.E.W.! The ways of justice we'll pursue. The revolution's overdue. RON: I can't think who Might want to *spew* And trouble you. HERMIONE: *Ron, that's "S-P-E-W".* HARRY AND RON: Okay, we'll do it for you. (Harry and Ron reluctantly pin the S.P.E.W. badges on, and they leave the Gryffindor Common Room with sheepish expressions on their faces.) -Amy Z. & Haggridd From william.truderung at sympatico.ca Mon Apr 21 13:41:38 2003 From: william.truderung at sympatico.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 13:41:38 -0000 Subject: Hagrid as Gamekeeper (was Re: Protecting Privet Drive/witches'menopause/Animagi/ In-Reply-To: <20030421113010.77455.qmail@web21204.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55758 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ladi lyndi wrote: > And yes, I did forget that Hagrid has another > title other than gamekeeper. However, this > doesn't mean that the jobs of gamekeeper, > growndskeeper and Keeper of the Keys were always > held by only one person. They may well have been > held by three different people at some point, or > two, or combined as they are by Hagrid in PS. Of > course, Hagrid now also has the title of teacher. Does anybody know what exactly each of these positions entail? I would think that 'Keeper of the Keys' would be a very dull job - unless this is a ceremonial position of some sort. Wouldn't having all four positions - Keeper of the Keys AND Gamekeeper AND Keeper of the Grounds AND Professor of CoMC - be far too much work for one person? Does Hagrid have one or more assistants, and if so where are they? Bill From blackgold101 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 21 14:33:33 2003 From: blackgold101 at yahoo.com (Marci) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 14:33:33 -0000 Subject: Ravenclaw & Hufflepuff (was: Why don't we know more about Ravenclaw?) In-Reply-To: <3EA31E13.7B53414C@blazenet.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55759 > Erin wrote: > > we don't know who their head of house is, or their ghost either. > Actually, I was pretty sure I remembered that Flitwick was the head > of Ravenclaw House, and the HP Lexicon confirmed this. It also states that The Grey Lady is Ravenclaw's ghost. Still, though, I do > feel that Ravenclaw is neglected (as is Hufflepuff!) Moi: I think Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff are just backstory, fill-ins. When it comes down to it, this whole saga is about Good vs. Evil, Potter vs. Voldmort, Potter vs. Malfoy, Gryfinndor vs. Slytherin. Plus, it's all from Harry's point of view, and he really has little contact with these houses. Maybe these two houses will become significant in the latter books. Marci From selene at earthlink.net Mon Apr 21 14:59:57 2003 From: selene at earthlink.net (Susan Fox-Davis) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 07:59:57 -0700 Subject: Draco's siblings? Message-ID: <3EA4076C.E9983C9D@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 55760 Patricia Bullington-McGuire wrote: <> I wanted to bring up the Malfoy family outing to the QWC when you beat me to it. Of course, there's the possibility that there was an elder Malfoy sib who shamed the family by being sorted into Hufflepuff and graduating Hogwarts with honors... Surely after such a fiasco, Lucius would control young Draco's upbringing more closely. Ha! Susan Fox-Davis selene at earthlink.net From metslvr19 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 21 15:10:28 2003 From: metslvr19 at yahoo.com (Laura) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 15:10:28 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's goal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55761 herm - own - ninny wrote: > > > I've been wondering for some time about Voldemort's plan of action now that he's back, new bod and all. Or at least, what is his ultimate goal? Canon is somewhat fuzzy on the subject. He hates Muggles, that's a given, but beyond that I'm not clear on his actual objectives are. So he's gathering an army that will fight the "Good Side" in an attempt to do what? Seize power? Overrule the Ministry of Magic and become the "ruler" of the Wizarding world? Draco tells Harry and Co. at the end of GoF that Mudbloods and Muggle-lovers will be the first to go. Does that mean that he plans to kill *all* Muggle born wizards and those who support them? This would certainly wipe out a good deal of the wizarding population. What about the Muggles? The *billions* of non-magical people that he so hates? Certainly he can't try to murder them all. The Muggles obviously outnumber the wizard population by a great deal, and add to that number all the "Mudbloods and Muggle-lovers", all versus Voldie and his comparatively small army of DEs. It just doesn't seem like a plausible scenario. > > > Now me: I think it's more of an ego thing, not exactly a concrete goal. Think back to his little speech in CoS, "so I fashioned myself a new name- a name I knew wizards around the world would fear to speak, when I had become the most powerful wizard in the world." (paraphrase) Also, in GoF, after the incident with the DE's at the Quidditch World Cup: (Ch 9- The Dark Mark, p.143) "What were You-Know-Who's supporters up to, levitating Muggles? I mean, what's the point?" [Harry asked] "The point?" said Mr. Weasley with a hollow laugh. "Harry, that's their idea of fun. Half the Muggle killings back when You-Know-Who was in power were done for fun." I personally think LV just likes terrifying people. Well, obviously, but I mean, he doesn't seem to have much more of a goal than that. Just to become immortal, be in power, control everyone, steal, torture, terrify, kill...all that. It all comes down to power, that's what all of politics comes down to. If you've read 1984, and my apologies that I can't remember any of the names of the characters at the moment, but the man who is torturing the insubordinate says something like, "tell me, why am I doing this?" And the insubordinate being tortured tries to humor him and says something like "for the good of the people." And the other guy says, "no, you idiot. We do this to stay in power!" Just because power is something people want, rather like money or sex. Or maybe because power can *get* them money or sex. So it seems like less of a concrete goal, and more LV's egotistical nature taking over. He just wants to be in power, terrifying people. And killing a few Muggles on the side, to get "revenge" at his father. -Laura From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Apr 21 15:13:16 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 15:13:16 -0000 Subject: SHIPping Attitudes In-Reply-To: <022f01c307a9$260057d0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55762 Hi -- --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pennylin" wrote: >> now that we'veheard JKR say that "certain feelings" between the three of them will come intoplay, I'm even more convinced that the "platonic friends" comment was aslimited and narrow in time scope as I've always believed.<< Pippin replied: <<<>>>>>> Penny rejoined: >>>I'm not sure I'm following the transition from Rowling conceding that the romance angle involves feelings between all *3* members of the Trio to a R/H Big Moment. :--)<< Eh? Where did Rowling mention a "romance angle"? She said, "...you get hints of certain feelings between the three of them, that belong to a sort of a, a slightly more mature person." My point is, there's more than one sort of mature feeling. Boys transitioning to adolescence are apt to be prickly about being hugged by girls or even by their mothers. At the end of GoF, Harry gets kissed, and doesn't yelp, "Hermione!" . He lets Molly hug him and doesn't wish Ron wasn't looking on. Those are more mature feelings than we saw earlier, IMO, and foreshadow Harry's becoming more comfortable with affection in general. Of course you could maintain JKR was referring only to romance. That logic would imply romance between Harry and Ron too. I don't see that foreshadowed in canon, mind you, but then I don't see H/H either. :-) I was unclear about the GoF scene. Canon doesn't say that Harry and Hermione hugged at King's Cross, but I confess I have trouble imagining how to deliver a kiss on the cheek without some additional contact. Anyway, JKR could have made it clear whether they hugged or not, but she didn't. Must not be important ;-) How does all this lead to a big R/H moment? Harry and Hermione have had a big friendly hug on the screen, and a "very platonic friends" kiss at King's Cross. A subsequent hug or kiss won't automatically signal a turn in their relationship. OTOH, Ron and Hermione have been kept apart, except for that awkward little moment in PoA. It'll be much more romantic when they fall into each others arms if they've never done it before. Pippin From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Mon Apr 21 15:33:43 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 11:33:43 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What is Canon? References: Message-ID: <050601c3081b$647f2820$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55763 I wrote: >> Well there's nothing canonical about a picture unless, for instance, >> it depicted Harry's scar as being on his cheek instead of his >> forehead. In that case, we would most certainly choose the forehead as >> being the correct placement "in canon." But pretend that the picture >> depicted Harry reading the book "Pride and Prejudice" and had a >> caption underneath it stating "Harry, reading his favorite book." If >> nowhere in the completed series are we told what Harry's favorite book >> is, i would take this caption as being "canonical fact" as there is no >> reason not to! Mysmacek replied: > Please no :-). Even the movie is not reliable. I do not recommend > believing merchandise at all. That we do not know otherwise does not > mean that it's a truth (truth at least in Potterverse, I mean) Again i must ask, WHY NOT? Nobody has given me a good reason thus far as to WHY we should refute facts retrieved from objects other than the books if they do not contradict what is in the books! Here's one good reason why we SHOULD accept them as fact (or "canon"): so far, we've been told that JKR is only writing 7 Harry Potter books. SEVEN. #5 is about to come out and then only 2 more to go. What then? What else will we have to turn to to satiate our thirst for Potter-knowledge? I'll tell you - OTHER licensed sources. I don't know about you, but it would thrill me to learn more facts after the series is complete. ~Katy~ Live in the southeast USA? Join the new HP4GU-Southeast-US regional group! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP4GU-Southeast-US/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Mon Apr 21 15:48:04 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 11:48:04 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Number Four Protection References: Message-ID: <053201c3081d$662217d0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55764 Sheena wrote: > And then Harry is left unprotected for hours alone on Number 4's door step. > I am doubtful that Harry at such an age and time would have been left > without some kind of protection. Would that mean Dumbledore went to Mrs Figg > first? Well, it's not expressly said, but i believe that Professor McConnagal most likely watched over him in cat form until the Dursley's found him the next morning. She had been watching the house all day, so a few more hours wouldn't hurt her. She was not joining in the parties as many other wizards were. I imagine it would have stressed her out immensely to leave him there all alone. ~Katy~ Live in the southeast USA? Join the new HP4GU-Southeast-US regional group! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP4GU-Southeast-US/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From golden_faile at yahoo.com Mon Apr 21 15:52:38 2003 From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 08:52:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione, Gilderoy, and What Makes a Gryffindor In-Reply-To: <0DB4122C.63CD21DD.022D3A68@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030421155238.38188.qmail@web41107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55765 I Don't know Audra, I think he shows distinct Slytherin qualities if you ask me. Being a Gryffindor also has to do with choices. Gilderoy is too ambitious for his own good and will stop at nothing to get what he wants. He doesn't seem to care who he hurts along the way. These don't seem like Gryffindor traits to me. Laila Audra1976 at aol.com wrote:I was thinking that, if anything, Gilderoy Lockheart would have been in Gryffindor, and for the same reason that Hermione is in Gryffindor. The Sorting Hat gets into an individual's mind and finds out what qualities that individual *prizes* in a good wizard, and matches them with the Founder that prized the same qualities. Likewise, I think it's evident that Gilderoy Lockheart *prizes* bravery over cleverness, hard work, or power. Even though he did not actually perform the brave acts he boasts of in his books, facing down all sorts of dangerous monsters, the image of the brave hero is wants he wants to proport for himself. He wants to attain this brave, laughing-in-the-face-of-danger image over any other. So clearly he indentifies most with the qualities prized by Godric Gryffindor. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stix4141 at hotmail.com Mon Apr 21 15:55:29 2003 From: stix4141 at hotmail.com (stickbook41) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 15:55:29 -0000 Subject: SHIPping Attitudes In-Reply-To: <022f01c307a9$260057d0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55766 Pippin: ...has anybody pointed out that it's also a more mature feeling to be able to accept a hug from your platonic friend without discomfort... If JKR wants us to see Ron and Hermione's first mutual hug as a Big Moment, she (and Kloves) are building up to it the right way. Penny: > I'm not sure I'm following the transition from Rowling conceding that the romance angle involves feelings between all *3* members of the Trio to a R/H Big Moment. Me: I disagree. I think, *any* romantically-angled Big Moment, no matter what ship, is going to be between all 3 members of the Trio. Whichever member ships with whichever other character, inside or outside of the Trio, whether romantic feelings are mutual or not, *will* change their dynamic. There's always going to be at least one of them that is sadly left out of the new and exciting world of romance. (This, I think, is why the puke-worthy OBHWF appeals to people--no loose ends.) Think about all the possible sucky scenarios: 1) R---->Hr, and Hr---->R; Harry left out, now second-string friend. 2) R---->Hr, but Hr-no->R; Ron likely to totally reject Hermione if she rejects him romantically, Harry likely to take sides. 3) Hr---->H, and H---->Hr; Ron left out, rejects both Harry and Hermione. 4) R---->Hr, Hr---->H, no feelings mutual; oh, the drama in the dell. (barf.) 5) R---->someone else; Hermione seemingly not keen on outsiders, Harry/Hermione friendship unbalanced on the goody-goody side. 6) Hr---->someone else; Ron already proven not keen on outsiders, Harry/Ron friendship unbalanced on the mischief side. 7) H---->someone else; Hermione and Ron left to their own devices, could be very very good or very very bad. What makes the situation even more delicate is that the Trio can't even express their romantic concerns with each other. Therefore they can't help each other sort through all the inevitable confusion. Not good for a group that's more than the sum its parts. As soon as one of them gives more than half a thought to real romance, no matter which of them it involves, their dynamic will never be the same. It takes real maturity, on *all* parts, for a friendship to survive something so detrimental. That said, I worry for Ron. The scary thing is, it's too late. The dynamic changed the instant we found out that Ron may be harboring some new feelings for his friend Hermione. It doesn't matter if she returns the feelings or not. The fact is that there's a new underlying motivation behind his words and actions, a motivation that doesn't leave the friendship as easily as it entered. That said, I worry for Hermione. Cheers! -stickbook who is really not as anti-romance than I sound in this post From stix4141 at hotmail.com Mon Apr 21 16:04:14 2003 From: stix4141 at hotmail.com (stickbook41) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 16:04:14 -0000 Subject: FILK: Rebuke Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55767 REBUKE A filk to the tune of "Sir Duke" by Stevie Wonder, on his album Songs in the Key of Life. SCENE: CoS--HARRY, RON, and HERMIONE are sitting in History of Magic. They are talking about the mysterious voices HARRY's heard. Outside the classroom they can hear PEEVES playing a trumpet. HERMIONE: Magic is a world within itself With a language we all comprehend HARRY: That is so easy for you to say You got a 98% again (drops voice to a whisper) In detention with Gilderoy -He's such a nincompoop- But I heard right away, to my dismay That the voice started to move! RON (to Harry): Can you hear it all over? Can you hear it all over, Harry? (whispers to Hermione): Can he hear it all over? Or could it be imaginary? (PROF BINN's boring lecture is nearly drowned out by PEEVES's trumpet outside) HERMIONE (raising hand): All the books don't say a single thing Oh, Professor, please explain this threat PROF BINNS: Here are some of Hogwarts' pioneers And this is legend, let us not forget There's Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw And Godric Gryffindor And with a monster like Sal's hiding out Guess what the Chamber's for HARRY (rather loudly): I can hear it hunting Muggle-borns! I can hear it all over Hogwarts! There's a danger that I've got to forewarn! I can hear it all over Hogwarts! I can hear it hunting Colin Creevy! I can hear it all over Hogwarts! Could that evil person really be me? I can hear it all over Hogwarts! (PEEVES suddenly bursts into the classroom with his trumpet) HARRY (yelling now): I can hear it hunting Hermione! I can hear it all over Hogwarts! Does this have to do with that diary? I can hear it all over Hogwarts! Can't you hear it all over? Can't you hear it all over Hogwarts? I can hear it all over! I can hear it all over Hogwarts! (RON and HERMIONE try very hard to look comforting, but it doesn't work so well. After a while PROF BINNS manages to oust PEEVES and his trumpet.) Cheers! -stickbook From jodel at aol.com Mon Apr 21 16:05:50 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 12:05:50 EDT Subject: I may have found an in-joke... Message-ID: <118.224e406f.2bd570de@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55768 Eric Oppen tells us; << One of his form-mates, though, is a George _Bulstrode._ I wonder if that might have somehow stuck in Our Author's mindwhen she was creating the stories? >> It gets better. There was a series of *girls* school stories about Billy's sister, Bessie Bunter. Being Yank I never saw these, but what's the bets that most of the boys of the first series had sisters? -JOdel From jodel at aol.com Mon Apr 21 16:05:48 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 12:05:48 EDT Subject: Hagrid as Gamekeeper Message-ID: <3a.37c7c740.2bd570dc@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55769 bboy_mn writes: << ...they knew if they really took a close look at what happened, they would see that it couldn't have been Hagrid who killed that girl. >> Actually, as a point of order, no one ever *did* think that Hagrid had killed Myrtle. Thery thought that one of Hagrid's pet monsters had gotten away from him and killed her. He was expelled for deliberately bringing dangerous monsters into the castle and putting people at risk. -JOdel From bard7696 at aol.com Mon Apr 21 16:13:47 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 16:13:47 -0000 Subject: Muggle-borns in the future and some other responses Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55770 Here's a question that has had me wondering for some time: We're all assuming that Muggle-Borns like Hermione are going to get jobs in the Magic world somewhere. My own prediction is that Hermione will someday be Headmistress of Hogwarts. Colin Creevy and Dean Thomas and Justin Finch-Feeley will also get jobs in the magic world. So, what happens to their Muggle families? Do they continue bouncing back and forth, visiting between the worlds? It seems to me that the Grangers are very very blase about the whole thing and Mrs. Finch- Feeley was swayed by one of Gilderoy Lockhart's books, if I recall. And the Creevy's have now sent two boys to school. Or, is it possible that these wizards and witches reenter the Muggle world and find "normal" jobs? Or, once you've gone wizard, can you never go back? Some other responses: We don't know for sure that Lockhart even attended Hogwarts, do we? There ARE other wizarding schools and Draco almost going to Durmstrang indicates that all British kids don't have to attend Hogwarts. Maybe he's a Beauxbaton grad. If he did go to Hogwarts, I'd say he likely was a Gryffindor. Indications are that Pettigrew was, and look how he turned out. SHIP - Obviously, there are some advantages to marrying off all the current characters, but my guess is that Harry, presuming he survives the whole thing, ends up with a girl we haven't met yet, or someone we wouldn't suspect. Ron and Hermione are heading toward a relationship. Whether that is a lasting one, who can tell? Darrin -- Will burn whichever book has a Draco-Hermione relationship starting. From patricia at obscure.org Mon Apr 21 16:34:27 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 12:34:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: honorifics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55771 On Mon, 21 Apr 2003, The Fox wrote: > I stand by my earlier theory -- that "Madam" is used by witches whose > marital status is irrelevant to the discussion requiring their names. Possibly, but it also seems to be used primarily by women who are in positions of authority. Madam Hooch, Madam Pomfrey and Madam Pince are all important people at the school and children are expected to obey them, even if they are not full professors. Madam Rosmerta's position doesn't seem as lofty (perhaps that's why she seems to use her first name with 'Madam'), but she is the proprietor of her own establishment and is the head honcho within those doors. Or, calling a glorified barmaid 'Madam' may be a friendly joke and/or term of affection, informally elevating her to a position of authority that she doesn't technically qualify for. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From william.truderung at sympatico.ca Mon Apr 21 16:52:48 2003 From: william.truderung at sympatico.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 16:52:48 -0000 Subject: SHIPping Attitudes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55772 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "stickbook41" wrote: 'What makes the situation even more delicate is that the Trio can't even express their romantic concerns with each other. Therefore they can't help each other sort through all the inevitable confusion. Not good for a group that's more than the sum its parts. As soon as one of them gives more than half a thought to real romance, no matter which of them it involves, their dynamic will never be the same. It takes real maturity, on *all* parts, for a friendship to survive something so detrimental. That said, I worry for Ron. The scary thing is, it's too late. The dynamic changed the instant we found out that Ron may be harboring some new feelings for his friend Hermione. It doesn't matter if she returns the feelings or not. The fact is that there's a new underlying motivation behind his words and actions, a motivation that doesn't leave the friendship as easily as it entered. That said, I worry for Hermione.' Me: I have always thought that the Trio was heading for trouble in the future. The fact is that three is an unstable number in personal relationships. I believe that Ron and Hermione will get together, probably in OotP, leaving Harry out in the cold. On top of his other concerns, that's gotta hurt. This may be one more reason for Harry to look for somebody outside the Trio for friendship. Bill From siskiou at earthlink.net Mon Apr 21 16:59:54 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 09:59:54 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIPping Attitudes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <174143938958.20030421095954@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 55773 Hi, Monday, April 21, 2003, 8:55:29 AM, stickbook41 wrote: 6) Hr---->>someone else; Ron already proven not keen on outsiders, > Harry/Ron friendship unbalanced on the mischief side. Having a little trouble with the above statement. Ron not keen on outsiders? I didn't see him have any problems with Harry crushing on Cho, only with Victor and Hermione. I have the feeling Ron might be completely fine with whoever Harry picks (if it's Ginny, there may be some initial reluctance), but not with anyone but himself for Hermione (once he actually gets what's going on with him and his feelings). But I certainly haven't seen any clear cut signs from Ron pointing to him rejecting any outsiders for Harry. Same with Hermione. She wasn't keen on Fleur (possibly because of feelings for Ron, imo) but didn't seem to mind Harry's interest in Cho. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From bard7696 at aol.com Mon Apr 21 17:06:54 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 17:06:54 -0000 Subject: SHIPping Attitudes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55774 > I believe that Ron and Hermione will get together, probably in OotP, > leaving Harry out in the cold. On top of his other concerns, that's > gotta hurt. This may be one more reason for Harry to look for > somebody outside the Trio for friendship. > > Bill If Harry has a brain in his head, the first thing he says after "I'm happy for your guys" is "Don't EVER put me in the middle of your fights!" Harry is going to have his Cho crush to deal with, and by the next book, Ginny is going to be a fourth-year, meaning she's probably going to be looking a bit better to him. I say he's fine emotionally with Ron and Hermione, so long as he stays out of the middle. Darrin -- Cho Crush would be a great name for a band From JessaDrow at aol.com Mon Apr 21 17:08:54 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 13:08:54 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIPping Attitudes Message-ID: <1c5.7ddfc6c.2bd57fa6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55775 In a message dated 4/21/03 1:03:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, siskiou at earthlink.net writes: > I have the feeling Ron might be completely fine with whoever > Harry picks (if it's Ginny, there may be some initial > reluctance), but not with anyone but himself for Hermione > (once he actually gets what's going on with him and his > feelings). > I think Ron would be fine with Ginny. This is his best friend and his sister. Who better to trust? ~Faith~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From selene at earthlink.net Mon Apr 21 16:04:09 2003 From: selene at earthlink.net (Susan Fox-Davis) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 09:04:09 -0700 Subject: The Scarlet Weasley [and a FILKette] Message-ID: <3EA41679.95EE392@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 55776 Andrea proposes: > In the same way, who would possibly connect the daring spy >for the Good Side with the boring, precise Weatherby? This just cracks me up! Thinking about it though: remember, the Sorting Hat placed him in Gryffindor for a reason. You can't keep a secret identity secret from a mind reader. "They seek him here, They seek him there, Those Voldies seek him everywhere! >From Azakaban To Diagon Alley That d***ed elusive Weatherbeeee!" Susan Fox-Davis selene at earthlink.net From selene at earthlink.net Mon Apr 21 16:00:26 2003 From: selene at earthlink.net (Susan Fox-Davis) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 09:00:26 -0700 Subject: Animagi Message-ID: <3EA41599.34C07AA9@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 55777 On 19 Apr 2003 at 23:27, jazmyn wrote: > I do not believe that one has a set pre-determined form that is 'their > form'. I believe that the wizard CHOOSES the form and practices that > one form for a long time till they perfect it. Peter Pettigrew really wanted to be a rat while his buddies were cool stuff like stags and wolves? Don't think so. The "small man syndrome" and general adolescent competitiveness would more likely driven him to manifest a T-Rex or something that could kick a wolf's furry butt, wouldn't he? He managed to make the rat thing pay off for himself in the long run, so far anyway. Anthony Boucher had much the same theory about lycanthropy in specific animal forms running in families in his classic fantasy short story "The Compleat Werewolf." Sometimes the family name tells all, like the story's protagonist Professor Wolf. It doesn't always work though; my maiden name was after all Fox and I tried saying "absarka" but it didn't work. Poot. I've long had a theory that if Rita Prince Winston did this she would turn into a lovely huggable furry purry Persian kitty. Another theory is that she already has. [Hi Rita!] Susan Fox-Davis selene at earthlink.net From stix4141 at hotmail.com Mon Apr 21 17:18:51 2003 From: stix4141 at hotmail.com (stickbook41) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 17:18:51 -0000 Subject: Muggle-borns in the future In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55778 Darrin: > We're all assuming that Muggle-Borns like Hermione are going to get > jobs in the Magic world somewhere. My own prediction is that Hermione > will someday be Headmistress of Hogwarts. Me: I like it. The first Muggle-born Headmistress, perhaps. I'm sure bigots like the Malfoys would LOVE that. Ha! I've been trying to develop my own soft ideas about Hermione's future occupation, something I've never seen this explored in theory or in fanfic: Hermione would make one hell of a journalist. She's proactive, good at research, puts two-and-two together like nobody's business, doesn't mind writing (as per all her extra-long essays), is brave enough to go undercover, and loves to enlighten people on what she considers truth. I can totally see her Rita Skeeter vendetta actually turning into something productive--after the end of VWII, she realizes that the Daily Prophet could be the next big sounding board for SPEW, joins the Prophet, and rises quickly through the ranks, stamping out all sensationalism as she goes. With "nothing short of certifiable truth in reporting" as the Prophet's new mantra, she becomes Editor-in-Chief, and is now able to sway the opinions of thousands of Wizards on issues such as equal rights for werewolves and giants. What do you think? Cheers! -stickbook Darrin: > -- Will burn whichever book has a Draco-Hermione relationship > starting. Me: Agreed. I can see why this is appealing from a Montegue-Capulet angle, but eww eww eww. From SaBoTaGe3p3 at hotmail.com Mon Apr 21 17:09:47 2003 From: SaBoTaGe3p3 at hotmail.com (sabotage3p3) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 17:09:47 -0000 Subject: Harry not related to the Dursleys? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55779 I was reading through the first book and was on chapter 12. I've noticed while reading it that when Harry looked in the Mirror of Erised, he sees all of his family. His mother, father, his grandparents, ancestors, etc. He sees people from both is mothers and fathers side of the family and I just realized that he didn't see the Dursleys. No Aunt Petunia or Dudley... So does that mean that the Dursleys aren't related to Harry?? This also brings out more questions, like than how does Harry staying with the Dursleys protect him, I thought that the reason he stayed with his aunt and uncle was because of blood protection. -Mo From JessaDrow at aol.com Mon Apr 21 17:33:43 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 13:33:43 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry not related to the Dursleys? Message-ID: <2d.2d764a55.2bd58577@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55780 In a message dated 4/21/03 1:32:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, SaBoTaGe3p3 at hotmail.com writes: > I was reading through the first book and was on chapter 12. I've > noticed while reading it that when Harry looked in the Mirror of > Erised, he sees all of his family. His mother, father, his > grandparents, ancestors, etc. He sees people from both is mothers > and fathers side of the family and I just realized that he didn't > see the Dursleys. No Aunt Petunia or Dudley... So does that mean > that the Dursleys aren't related to Harry?? This also brings out > more questions, like than how does Harry staying with the Dursleys > protect him, I thought that the reason he stayed with his aunt and > uncle was because of blood protection. > I think more to the point Harry 'desires' that he wasn't related to the Dursley's, I think he seems them more as his keepers, than his family. ~Faith~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From grosich at nyc.rr.com Mon Apr 21 17:37:33 2003 From: grosich at nyc.rr.com (Gina Rosich) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 10:37:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry not related to the Dursleys? In-Reply-To: <2d.2d764a55.2bd58577@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030421173733.4492.qmail@web13113.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55781 In a message dated 4/21/03 1:32:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, SaBoTaGe3p3 at hotmail.com writes: > I was reading through the first book and was on chapter 12. I've > noticed while reading it that when Harry looked in the Mirror of > Erised, he sees all of his family. His mother, father, his > grandparents, ancestors, etc. He sees people from both is mothers > and fathers side of the family and I just realized that he didn't > see the Dursleys. No Aunt Petunia or Dudley... So does that mean > that the Dursleys aren't related to Harry?? This also brings out > more questions, like than how does Harry staying with the Dursleys > protect him, I thought that the reason he stayed with his aunt and > uncle was because of blood protection. > ME: Actually, I took that to mean he saw all his DECEASED relatives. And more specifically, deceased magical relatives and muggles not opposed to his magic. The Dursleys are neither dead nor supportive of his magical abilities, nor loving for that matter. So, they would not show up in the mirror as seeing them is certainly not part of Harry's heart's desire. Gina :-) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mbarclay at lee.edu Mon Apr 21 17:42:08 2003 From: mbarclay at lee.edu (Barclay, Maggie) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 12:42:08 -0500 Subject: Hermione, Gilderoy, and What Makes a Gryffindor Message-ID: <8F497E280916D4119B0100A0C9EA53E7021D5A2D@leonardo.lee.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 55782 Laila Wrote: I Don't know Audra, I think he shows distinct Slytherin qualities if you ask me. Being a Gryffindor also has to do with choices. Gilderoy is too ambitious for his own good and will stop at nothing to get what he wants. He doesn't seem to care who he hurts along the way. These don't seem like Gryffindor traits to me. Audra1976 at aol.com wrote: I was thinking that, if anything, Gilderoy Lockheart would have been in Gryffindor, and for the same reason that Hermione is in Gryffindor. The Sorting Hat gets into an individual's mind and finds out what qualities that individual *prizes* in a good wizard, and matches them with the Founder that prized the same qualities. Likewise, I think it's evident that Gilderoy Lockheart *prizes* bravery over cleverness, hard work, or power. Even though he did not actually perform the brave acts he boasts of in his books, facing down all sorts of dangerous monsters, the image of the brave hero is wants he wants to proport for himself. He wants to attain this brave, laughing-in-the-face-of-danger image over any other. So clearly he indentifies most with the qualities prized by Godric Gryffindor. Me: I don't know. I believe that Lockhart actually prizes getting *credit* for performing the dangerous acts rather than the bravery required to perform the said good deeds. Certainly the wizarding world appreciates the qualities of a Gryffindor, even if, as Audra mentions, they don't all prize these qualities above all others. Thus Lockhart might realize that by appearing to posses these qualities, he could be very famous and revered. So, I guess I believe that Lockhart is a Slytherin because he actually prizes power--power over women, power over The Daily Prophet's bestseller list. . . MaggieB--hoping to finally post something that doesn't get immediately blown away and discredited [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From patricia at obscure.org Mon Apr 21 17:41:26 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 13:41:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Muggle-borns in the future and some other responses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55783 On Mon, 21 Apr 2003, darrin_burnett wrote: > Or, is it possible that these wizards and witches reenter the Muggle > world and find "normal" jobs? Or, once you've gone wizard, can you > never go back? I doubt there is any prohibition on witches and wizards entering the Muggle world (after all, the magical parents of all those half-and-half kids had to meet their mates somewhere), as long as they keep the existence of magic a secret. However, Hogwarts graduates aren't really qualified to hold down muggle jobs. It's not just that they don't have the right credentials (which A-level would a NEWT in Transfiguration correspond to?), but that they don't have the background knowledge muggle employers would expect. They haven't gained any technological expertise at Hogwarts, so most blue-collar jobs are out, and they haven't gotten much in the way of liberal arts education either (muggle history, literature, physical sciences, etc.). So if a Hogwarts alum wanted to get a muggle job, he or she would be severely disadvantaged. I'm sure there are some who could manage it, but not many without supplemental muggle education. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From stix4141 at hotmail.com Mon Apr 21 17:53:16 2003 From: stix4141 at hotmail.com (stickbook41) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 17:53:16 -0000 Subject: SHIPping Attitudes In-Reply-To: <174143938958.20030421095954@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55784 Me from before: > 6) Hr---->>someone else; Ron already proven not keen on outsiders, > > Harry/Ron friendship unbalanced on the mischief side. Suzanne: > Having a little trouble with the above statement. > > Ron not keen on outsiders? I didn't see him have any > problems with Harry crushing on Cho, only with Victor and > Hermione. ... > But I certainly haven't seen any clear cut signs from Ron > pointing to him rejecting any outsiders for Harry. I believe you've taken the issue out of context. Ron didn't seem to mind the idea that Hermione was going with someone else to the Ball *until the Ball*, when she showed up with someone with whom she presumably shared a mutual interest. *That's* when Ron started to feel threatened. (Before I go on, I should explain that by "threat," what I mean is that it's a threat to the delicate dynamic of the Trio. Not a personal threat to HRH's manhood/womanhood/self-esteem/whatever.) We'll never know, of course, but I think that if Harry actually successfully took his ultra-passive interest in Cho to the next level (like Hermione did), then Ron would still feel threatened, and would probably react in a similarly not-so-mature way. Instead, Harry took Parvati to the Ball, and Ron *knew* Harry did so only reluctantly. There was no threat there. Ron only got mad when he realized that Hermione had been actively choosing someone else's company over his and Harry's. Suzanne: > Same with Hermione. She wasn't keen on Fleur (possibly > because of feelings for Ron, imo) but didn't seem to mind > Harry's interest in Cho. Sorry if I sound redundant, but I don't think that either Ron or Hermione had any indication that Harry had been crushing on Cho for *a year* before he worked up the nerve to ask her to the Ball. Hermione only finds out when Ginny tells her that both boys got turned down for dates. Perhaps by then she saw Cho as a non-threat, one who became even more of a non-threat when she and Cedric officially became a couple. And Harry's interest in her became even more passive. Ron's disinterest in Padma was embarrassingly obvious, so no threat there. I hope this makes sense. Cheers! -stickbook From manawydan at ntlworld.com Mon Apr 21 18:03:28 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 19:03:28 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] wizardry and mugglery References: <1050866464.2800.81875.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000401c30830$528f95e0$d97d0550@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 55785 Fandulin wrote: >All very good points. It seems cold-hearted, but then again, wizards >don't ask muggledom for help with problems particular to them, i.e. >Voldemort. I was just thinking that young wizards, especially those >from muggle backgrounds would sometimes see the chaos and sadness of >the muggle world and wonder if they should be doing something. I That's an interesting point. I'm sure that it's not an uncommon sentiment - if a muggle born wizard has someone terminally ill in their family, for example, would they use magical means to heal them? What would the MoM do in those circumstances? Is there a degree of relationship that's ok to do that, but further out (granny's neighbour's hairdresser's cat...) then it would attract the attention of Arthur Weasley and his Muggle Protection squad? >mean face it, outside of the threat of dark wizards, the WW is a very >comfortable and safe place to be (with the exception of dangerous >activities they gleefully pursue, such as quidditch). Perhaps they I wonder. The more I think about it, the more I feel that the WW can be a very dark and sinister place. Conspiracies and rebellions by dark magicians arise at regular intervals. Although magic allows you to make changes in reality, it doesn't absolve you from having to earn a living. Defence against the dark arts is taught to children _as a matter of course_ in a time (supposedly) of peace. There are all manner of magical creatures around, some of them decidedly dangerous. And the whole is ruled by an unaccountable bureaucracy. whose bona fides are well dodgy. >would begin to wonder where their loyalties should primarily lie, >with the WW or the human race. Then again, once they enter the WW, >wizards and witches probably don't have much contact with the >muggles, and may simply forget or not realize the problems and >struggles that most of the world has to put up with. I do agree that >if their interference was discovered, it would be an extremely >slippery slope from then on. Though at least some wizards form relationships (and therefore must have some means of meeting and interacting ) with muggles. There must be some sort of ethical tuition (i surmise) as part of the Hogwarts curriculum to guide the students as to what is and is not allowable. It's interesting to note that there's no suggestion in canon that dark wizards have ever conspired with dark _muggles_. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Mon Apr 21 18:12:06 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 18:12:06 -0000 Subject: What is Canon? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55786 Mysmacek said: > Please no :-). Even the movie is not reliable. I do not recommend > believing merchandise at all. That we do not know otherwise does not > mean that it's a truth (truth at least in Potterverse, I mean) Katy replied: Again i must ask, WHY NOT? Nobody has given me a good reason thus far as to WHY we should refute facts retrieved from objects other than the books if they do not contradict what is in the books! Me: Because JKR does not have complete control over the merchandise and the movies. For example, she may "guide" Kloves, but ultimately, Kloves himself, and Columbus as well, will insert whatever subtext they wish into the movie. The same goes for spells. My CoS computer game, for example, has a spell called "Mimblewimble." Should we consider it canon, then? I don't think so. JKR didn't invent it. Another good example is robes. Honestly, did you have the Movie!Robes in mind when you first read the books? Katy continued: Here's one good reason why we SHOULD accept them as fact (or "canon"): so far, we've been told that JKR is only writing 7 Harry Potter books. SEVEN. #5 is about to come out and then only 2 more to go. What then? What else will we have to turn to to satiate our thirst for Potter-knowledge? I'll tell you - OTHER licensed sources. I don't know about you, but it would thrill me to learn more facts after the series is complete. Me: It would thrill me to find out more of the facts from Rowling. If she doesn't write anything else after Book 7, I'll be content with what I have, but I won't regard other sources as canon. But that's just me, you're, of course, entitled to your own opinion. Maria From siskiou at earthlink.net Mon Apr 21 18:17:22 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 11:17:22 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIPping Attitudes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <353295039.20030421111722@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 55787 Hi, Monday, April 21, 2003, 10:53:16 AM, stickbook41 wrote: > Ron didn't seem to > mind the idea that Hermione was going with someone else to the Ball > *until the Ball*, when she showed up with someone with whom she > presumably shared a mutual interest. I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this ;) I read this a little differently, seeing Ron trying to find out who Hermione was going to the ball with insistently *before* the ball. I also believe Hermione and Ron both knew about Cho long before he asked her to the ball (unsuccessfully). Ron knew for sure, and Hermione would have to be pretty thick not to figure it out (from the scene where he splashes water down his front, and the "the make them alright at Hogwarts" while looking at Cho). I don't have time to find the book and exact quotes at the moment (leaving the house right now). I do agree that any relationship one of the trio members might enter will change things slightly, but this is inevitable and doesn't have to lead to huge problems, unless it's FITD stuff, imo. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Mon Apr 21 18:17:38 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 18:17:38 -0000 Subject: Riddle lust Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55788 Erin wrote: > Who exactly is Riddle supposed to be feeling lust FOR? (snip) > there has never really been an appropriate moment for Riddle to > express any other "feelings" he might have. "Catlady" wrote: > You're right about the context, but he *might* have mentioned it > during his rants,such as, when Riddle boasted: "No, Harry - I > fashioned myself a new name, a name I knew wizards everywhere would > one day fear to speak, when I had become the greatest sorcerer in >the world!", he might have thrown in something about "and desired >by all the most beautiful witches." Many people would, not just 16- >year-olds. Now Me (Erin) Again: Well, this is just getting grosser by the minute, but I've gotta say it: Just because he didn't specifically mention his lust doesn't mean he didn't have it. In fact maybe that WAS a declaration of his lust. Voldy doesn't seem to me to be the kind of person who wants to be desired. He's said what he wants: to be feared. So wouldn't it be more logical for him to just TAKE what he wanted in terms of female companionship? When he's the most powerful wizard in the world, he can take *whatever* he wants. Yuck! And even if he did long for women to desire him, he'd likely never admit to that, especially to Harry. He'd see it as a weakness to be concealed. Me: Er... you know, I think that the last thing Riddle cares/cared about is female companionship. He doesn't seem the least bit interested in women, and is downright dissmissive of them. It's like he doesn't notice them, even. Ginny is just plain boring. He doesn't even enjoy using her. Lily Potter? Just a silly girl. And I'm not going to expand on this. I recall an interesting discussion in the archives about the topic, though. Maria From katydid3500 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 21 18:21:08 2003 From: katydid3500 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 11:21:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry not related to the Dursleys? In-Reply-To: <20030421173733.4492.qmail@web13113.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030421182108.5373.qmail@web40507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55789 Gina Rosich wrote: In a message dated 4/21/03 1:32:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, SaBoTaGe3p3 at hotmail.com writes: > I was reading through the first book and was on chapter 12. I've > noticed while reading it that when Harry looked in the Mirror of > Erised, he sees all of his family. His mother, father, his > grandparents, ancestors, etc. He sees people from both is mothers > and fathers side of the family and I just realized that he didn't > see the Dursleys. No Aunt Petunia or Dudley... So does that mean > that the Dursleys aren't related to Harry?? This also brings out > more questions, like than how does Harry staying with the Dursleys > protect him, I thought that the reason he stayed with his aunt and > uncle was because of blood protection. > ME: Actually, I took that to mean he saw all his DECEASED relatives. And more specifically, deceased magical relatives and muggles not opposed to his magic. The Dursleys are neither dead nor supportive of his magical abilities, nor loving for that matter. So, they would not show up in the mirror as seeing them is certainly not part of Harry's heart's desire. Gina :-) Me: I belive what we agreed upon is that this is all in the powers of the Mirror of Erised. It doesn't show the truth or the future, just the deepest desires of Harry's heart. Harry desires to be with his parents and have a big supportive family. The Dursley's are mean to him and hate everything about him and his parents...so family or not, he doesn't want them there so of course, they would not be present in the Mirror of Erised. ~Kathryn --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lupinesque at yahoo.com Mon Apr 21 18:31:03 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 18:31:03 -0000 Subject: Mimblewimble / What is Canon? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55790 Maria wrote: >My CoS computer game, for example, has a > spell called "Mimblewimble." Should we consider it canon, then? I > don't think so. JKR didn't invent it. Can you *imagine* the excitement that will reign here if "Mimblewimble" turns out to be a spell? After all, it does appear in canon, but from the most Mugglish Muggle of them all. If it turned out that Uncle Vernon spoke incantations unawares when under stress, we'd go nuts with speculation. Katy wrote: > Here's one good reason why we SHOULD accept them as fact > (or "canon"): so far, we've been told that JKR is only writing 7 > Harry Potter books. SEVEN. #5 is about to come out and then only 2 > more to go. What then? What else will we have to turn to to satiate > our thirst for Potter-knowledge? I'll tell you - OTHER licensed > sources. I don't know about you, but it would thrill me to learn more > facts after the series is complete. It may be thrilling, and go ahead and accept it as part of your HP world if it gives you pleasure, but it's not Rowling canon. Canon means "the works of an author that have been accepted as authentic" (that's the American Heritage's opinion, anyway). I've enjoyed non- canonical works such as Sherlock Holmes mysteries by someone other than Arthur Conan Doyle, but they still aren't part of his canon. I suppose we could have two varieties: "J. K. Rowling canon" (words she wrote/spoke) and "Harry Potter canon" (anything at all having to do with Harry Potter), though I think the word implies something a bit narrower than that. The canon of Harry Potter, broadly conceived, would include shampoo bottles, rubber Hermione figurines, stories about Hogwarts written by 5th graders for a school assignment . . . none of these provides any facts, though it might provide great enjoyment to those of us who can't get enough HP. Amy Z From oppen at mycns.net Mon Apr 21 18:45:05 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 13:45:05 -0500 Subject: FILK: Ravenclaw War Song (from the Voldemort War years) Message-ID: <013401c30836$21a7b100$bb560043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 55791 I wanted to do a "Harry Potter" filksong that would be as scary to listen to as Heather Alexander's "March of Cambreath," with its chorus of "How many of them can we make die?" ---------- Ravenclaw Battle Song, or Trouble Rather The Tiger in His Lair than the Sage Among His Books. (from the Voldemort War) To the tune of The Ranger Fight Song (Scotland the Brave) Slaughter the evil wizards We'll cut out all their gizzards Onward, the Blue-and-Yellow Up, Ravenclaw, and at 'em! Death Eaters will be dead Their bones ground to make our bread Onward, the Blue-and-Yellow Up, Ravenclaw! Singing: (Chorus) Blast, blast down each Death Eater Send them down to defeat or Send them to Azkaban or Send them to Hell forever! We will never give them mercy They were bad, we'll treat them worse, see? Onward, the Blue-and-Yellow, Up, Ravenclaw! With wands and spells we'll fight our battle Pound their heads till their teeth rattle, Not leave them their eyes to cry with, Or their tongues to say "Goodbye" with! They will all feel our spells' lashes, When we're done they'll all be ashes! On with the Blue-and-Yellow, Up, Ravenclaw! Singing: (Chorus) Ravenclaw, the home of knowledge, Smartest students of this college, Calls her girls and boys to war, Like it's often been before! Bloodlust sends us on a bender, We don't know the word "surrender!" On with the Blue-and-Yellow, Up, Ravenclaw! Singing: (Chorus) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Pjamelan at comcast.net Mon Apr 21 16:31:21 2003 From: Pjamelan at comcast.net (James Jimerson) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 12:31:21 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why don't we know more about Ravenclaw? References: Message-ID: <001501c30823$71da10e0$0fb43344@savana01.ga.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 55792 ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Hewitt To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2003 3:23 PM Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Why don't we know more about Ravenclaw? Erin: >we don't know who their head of house is, or their ghost either. Who > >wants to bet that Sinistra is the head? Anyone got any ideas on this? Hey all, I thought that the Head of Ravenclaw was Profesor Flitwick. I can't remember which book I saw it in but it's definitely something to look into. Griffinmore _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself with cool emoticons http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Mon Apr 21 19:06:41 2003 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Ibot=20Bracchae-Breves?=) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 20:06:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: The Philosopher's Stone (Was: PS/SS Title Change) In-Reply-To: <1050620660.9089.1132.m13@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030421190641.33510.qmail@web21501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55793 Patricia Bullington-McGuire wrote: The Philosopher's Stone is not a particularly British idea. I don't know who originally came up with the idea or where they lived, but the concept of the stone has been widely known throughout Europe for hundreds of years. For an ancient, esoteric concept, it's pretty well known in the US too, thanks to our considerable European heritage. I'm an American, and I knew about the philosopher's stone long before the first Harry Potter book came out. There are many other Americans who also know about it apart from the HP books. And I'm sure there are many Brits who had *not* heard about the philosopher's stone before Harry Potter. It's well established in mythology, but it's not something people talk about over dinner. My contribution: I'm getting on to a touchy subject here as this is approaching the subject of religion. This group is concerned mainly with the detective level of the HP books and so if I'm out of order please send me a howler and I'll turn silent as the grave! The point I want to make is that the philosopher's stone is a very ancient symbol, which has been a guiding principle in certain people?s lives right up to the present day. I live in the Netherlands, and here the stone is known as the "Stone of the Wise". I belong to a group of people who could very well be named "The Community of the Philosopher's Stone". The idea is that everyone owns a philosopher's stone. Hidden deep in the heart of every Tom, Dick and Harry is an eternal "stone" put there by the "Potter" of the universe. This stone, which can be accessed only when we don't want to use it (for earthly goals), can give its owner two things: it can make gold and it can make the elixir of life. It can turn the base metals of our earthly desires into the gold of the reborn soul, and it can give eternal life if we are willing to sacrifice the egocentric self. Hence our group could also be called "The Order of the Phoenix". The phoenix is the most refulgent symbol of the self-sacrifice of the earthly I-centred personality for the immortal heir-y-Potter. When I first saw the title "HP and the Philosopher's Stone" I was immediately arrested by the use of this powerful, sacred symbol. When I read the books I was absolutely riveted by the incredibly potent archetypes which have been part of humanity's unconscious spiritual bank account, (deep under the ground at Gringott's), for uncountable millennia. Sometimes I wake up in the morning thinking to myself that it just can't be true that a girl of 24 was inspired for 4 hours to record the greatest, most powerful story ever told: the liberation of man. But then I think about Harry with the mark of Cain on his forehead and I realise it's true. This is the story of Gautama the Buddha, the story of Krishna, the Story of Jesus Christ, of Lao-Tzu, of Zarathustra (Zoroaster), of Moses, of Hermes Trismegistus. It is also the story of Briar Rose (Sleeping Beauty), Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table, the Quest for the Holy Grail, the 12 Labours of Hercules, and so many other myths, legends and fairy tales which promise the return to man's original fatherland. Tears come to my eyes when I contemplate the radiant beauty and absolute purity of the story of HP. But not only is the story perfect in its outlining of the path of human liberation; it is totally true on every other level you can examine it. Christians theologians are entranced by it; as a detective novel it's unsurpassed; as a fairy tale it's classic; as pure literature it's an inexhaustible delight. You name it; it's there. If I may be permitted I want to outline how Harry, as the prototype of the reborn, immortal soul, achieves a step in the process of liberation in each book. In the first book Harry can gain access to the Stone only if he doesn't want to use it. He does not want earthly wealth and longevity. He has been liberated from the desire to live on the physical plane. In the second book Harry liberates an elf. Elves, goblins, gnomes, fire-salamanders etc. are etheric creatures. Harry achieves liberation on the etheric plane (the plane of life force). In the third book Harry learns to conquer fear. This is liberation on the astral (emotional) plane. In the fourth book Harry develops his will to such an extent that he can actually drive back the curse coming out of Lucifer's (Voldemort) wand by pitting his will-power against Lucifer's. The eternal soul has achieved liberation on the mental plane. Awaiting Harry in the next three books are liberation of the consciousness in its three aspects: the mental ego, the emotional ego and the consciousness ego. The Path of Liberation can also be divided into five steps, described by the names of five Gods and planets: Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn. Harry has achieved the step of Mercury through his alliance with Hermione. Hermione is the female form of Hermes, the Greek equivalent of Mercury. He has also achieved Mars: the triumph of his will against that of Lucifer. To come in the next three books are Venus, Jupiter and Saturn. Venus of course represents love. Harry will come to know divine Love, symbolised probably by a demonstration or sacrifice of great love. To win Jupiter, Harry will have to become the leader of the Gods; in other words he will become a great leader. To achieve the Saturn initiation Harry will have to go through the Gate of Saturn - a Death followed by an implicit or explicit resurrection in an indestructible body. I now await the jury?s verdict with a pounding heart. If people are interested I can go on to explain further symbology. If not I?m sure I?ll get to hear about it! Hans --------------------------------- Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pennylin at swbell.net Mon Apr 21 19:21:37 2003 From: pennylin at swbell.net (pennylin) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 14:21:37 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIPping Attitudes References: <20030421035625.51460.qmail@web21109.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <031b01c3083b$3af62b50$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 55794 Hi -- Taking issue with my use of the word "conceded," Petra Pan said: <<<<<<"Conceding?" Interesting diction, Penny. Still sure you're not on a battleSHIP?>>>>>>>>>>> Nah, it's a cruiseliner, a party boat. You're welcome aboard anytime. :--) In my dictionary, "concede" means, among other things, "to acknowledge as true." I think that's technically correct as to what Rowling did, but *better* word choice might actually have been *volunteered.* In response to a question about Trio dynamics, JKR *volunteered* the tidbit about "certain feelings" between the *three* members of the Trio being foreshadowed. Yes, I like that much better. She could have stuck with generic "they're stronger together than apart" statements, but she *volunteered* the information that the romance angle extends to all 3 of them. > "Chris [Columbus] has kind of > foreshadowed in this second film > what I don't do until the 4th book, > which is, you get hints of certain > feelings between the three of them > ......that belong to a slightly > more mature person." See my interpretation is that if Harry is involved in this scenario (and he is or she would have said *two of the three* or just *two*), then surely some "certain [non-platonic] feelings" are running *to* and/or *from* Harry. There's no Ginny or Cho involved in this equation. She's talking about the Trio quite clearly. Now, Pippin is correct: the feelings that run to and/or from Harry might well relate to Ron rather than Hermione. But, I think the odds are at least as high that the feelings running to and/or from Harry will likely involve Hermione. <<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, that's exactly *my* point, Petra. It's the R/H crowd who are and have been so insistent that Rowling signed a death knell to H/H *forevermore* with the "they are platonic friends" quote. My view is that this statement was limited in scope, and, as you say, proves nothing and disproves nothing. I also have the view that the recent DVD interview discussed above completely trumps the "platonic friends" quote in any case. If they were and are forevermore platonic friends, then there is no *3* involved at all. <<<<<<<<>>>>>>> As Stickbook pointed out, there must indeed be more than one person actively having "certain feelings" for JKR's statement to make sense. I don't see how you can possibly argue that she would say *three* but only mean *one.* Turning to Pippin. .......... Okay, thanks for clarifying where you were headed with that argument. I now see the thought progression, though I still disagree. <<<<<<<>>>>>>>>> So......... you think she was talking romantic feelings between Ron and Hermione but some other "mature feeling" as relates to Harry? Hmmmmmmmm......sorry, but I can't quite buy that. She says that Columbus foreshadowed in the CoS film "certain feelings" that she doesn't foreshadow much in the books until GoF. I think it's reasonably clear that she's talking about the romance angle, especially as you watch the interview and see her expression and body language. <<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>> No, you're right. I think she was most interested in highlighting the *kiss* ..... any additional body contact necessary to achieve a kiss on the cheek was secondary in importance to her (and/or to Harry, who is actually the one highlighting the kiss, technically speaking). <<<<<>>>>>>>>> Er.......who's to say what was running through Hermione's head when she gave him that kiss? Yes, they were not boyfriend/girlfriend when she kissed him........but maybe she wanted to be? If we're going to mix in movie with canon, then I must say, Radcliffe did not do a very good job of conveying "platonic" interest in Hermione in that final scene -- that big cheezy grin as he saw Hermione running toward him was priceless. I overheard at least one person say, "what....do they *both* like her?" <<>>>>>> But, sticking strictly with the books (and not mixing in movie contamination), the boys have had one awkward hug each from Hermione. The reactions of Harry and Ron were identical (horror and terror in equal parts). I don't see that there's any real "foreshadowing" of later romantic involvement for one pairing over the other, with reference to the hugs. The only difference thus far is that Hermione kissed Harry (and we don't know *exactly* why) and we have no evidence that she has ever kissed Ron. :--) Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Apr 21 19:23:24 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 19:23:24 -0000 Subject: Hagrid as Gamekeeper (was Re: Protecting Privet Drive/witches'menopause/Animagi/ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55795 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mongo62aa" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ladi lyndi > wrote: > > > However, this doesn't mean that the jobs of gamekeeper, > > growndskeeper and Keeper of the Keys were always held by only one > > person. .... Of course, Hagrid now also has the title of teacher. > > Does anybody know what exactly each of these positions entail? I > would think that 'Keeper of the Keys' would be a very dull job > - unless this is a ceremonial position of some sort. > > Wouldn't having all four positions - Keeper of the Keys AND > Gamekeeper AND Keeper of the Grounds AND Professor of CoMC - be far > too much work for one person? Does Hagrid have one or more > assistants, and if so where are they? > > Bill bboy_mn: Keeper of Keys - Not a hard job, Hagrid has a master set of keys for the castle and other buildings at the school. Grounds Keeper - think Frank Bryce. Hagrid mows the lawn, trims the hedges, clears the underbrush, maintains the trails, paths, and walkways, tends the flower and vegetable gardens, etc.... That certainly sounds like a full time job, but when you consider that he is probably allowed to use magic to accomplish it, I don't think it's a strain. Hedges and lawns are probably enchanted to stay a certain length, so they need little tending. Anything plant related that isn't part of Herbology is probably Hagrid responsibility. Game Keeper - I think this is like wildlife and comservation management. He prevents people from poaching on game in the forbidden forest, keeps people from exploiting the plants and animals of the forest, provides any game animals needed for food, raises a certain number of domestic food animals (pigs, chickens, cows), etc. In practice, I think all it means is that part of his job is to wander around the forbidden forest a lot. With the use of magic, I don't see this job as much of a strain either. Personally, I think these are all different names for the same job, by that I mean, that I think they were always the job of one man. Of course, I can't prove that, bboy_mn From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 21 19:29:37 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 19:29:37 -0000 Subject: Harry not related to the Dursleys? In-Reply-To: <20030421182108.5373.qmail@web40507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55796 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Kathryn Wolber wrote: > > > Gina Rosich wrote: > > > In a message dated 4/21/03 1:32:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > SaBoTaGe3p3 at h... writes: > > > I was reading through the first book and was on chapter 12. I've > > noticed while reading it that when Harry looked in the Mirror of > > Erised, he sees all of his family. His mother, father, his > > grandparents, ancestors, etc. He sees people from both is mothers > > and fathers side of the family and I just realized that he didn't > > see the Dursleys. No Aunt Petunia or Dudley... So does that mean > > that the Dursleys aren't related to Harry?? Gina: > Actually, I took that to mean he saw all his DECEASED relatives. And more specifically, deceased magical relatives and muggles not opposed to his magic. The Dursleys are neither dead nor supportive of his magical abilities, nor loving for that matter. So, they would not show up in the mirror as seeing them is certainly not part of Harry's heart's desire. Kathryn: I belive what we agreed upon is that this is all in the powers of the Mirror of Erised. It doesn't show the truth or the future, just the deepest desires of Harry's heart. Harry desires to be with his parents and have a big supportive family. The Dursley's are mean to him and hate everything about him and his parents...so family or not, he doesn't want them there so of course, they would not be present in the Mirror of Erised. Pip: I think Harry's *not* seeing the Dursley's in the Mirror is a strong signal that what the Mirror shows is not the truth. Ron doesn't see the future, for example, just what he would like the future to be. Harry certainly doesn't look like the Dursley's in the face or in colouring, but Petunia is always described as 'thin' or 'bony'. Harry is described as 'skinny'. He seems to have inherited his short, thin body type from his mothers side of the family. Pip From gandharvika at hotmail.com Mon Apr 21 19:35:37 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 19:35:37 +0000 Subject: (FILK) You're So Vain Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55797 You don't have to guess who this filk is talking about :D You're so Vain (A FLIK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _You're So Vain_ by Carly Simon) Dedicated to Stickbook for his fantabulous Steve Wonder filk Midi is here: http://www.bajeca.com/volume/volume.htm That's a really hip Midi site there, BTW...check it out. Disillusioned Former Fangirl: You came into Flourish and Blotts like you were some sort of monarch Your hat it was set at a jaunty angle Your robes, the color lilac Well, you winked your eye at all your fans and flashed a smarmy smile And all of the witches there wanted your picture Wanted your picture and... You're so vain, I've written this filk just to expose you You're so vain, I've written this filk just to expose you Yes you, yes you You had me fooled like all of the rest with all of your great stories Now that I've met you in real life, how could I have ever believed? With your foppish style and attitude I learned you were a lie I had your books, now they're thrown in the garbage Thrown in the garbage and... You're so vain, I've written this filk just to expose you You're so vain, I've written this filk just to expose you Yes you, yes you Well, you said you stopped a powerful vampire from doing any more harm Then you saved a town from the Waga Waga Werewolf by using the Hormorpus Charm Well, you could've made the National Squad Instead you decided You'd dedicate your life fighting Dark Forces Fighting Dark forces and... You're so vain, I've written this filk just to expose you You're so vain, I've written this filk just to expose you Yes you, yes you -Gail B...who is very surprised that the word "fantabulous" passed through her Spell Checker. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From william.truderung at sympatico.ca Mon Apr 21 20:12:18 2003 From: william.truderung at sympatico.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 20:12:18 -0000 Subject: The Philosopher's Stone (Was: PS/SS Title Change) In-Reply-To: <20030421190641.33510.qmail@web21501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55798 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ibot Bracchae-Breves wrote: 'I now await the jury's verdict with a pounding heart. If people are interested I can go on to explain further symbology. If not I'm sure I'll get to hear about it! Hans' I for one would *love* to hear more. I have always been interested in the symbolism behind the HP stories (having had an interest in mythology, Jungian psychology, alchemy, etc. for quite some time) and your point of view sounds quite different and interesting. Bill From annemehr at yahoo.com Mon Apr 21 20:39:09 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 20:39:09 -0000 Subject: What is Canon? In-Reply-To: <050601c3081b$647f2820$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55799 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Katy Cartee" wrote: > I wrote: > > >> But pretend that the picture > >> depicted Harry reading the book "Pride and Prejudice" and had a > >> caption underneath it stating "Harry, reading his favorite book." If > >> nowhere in the completed series are we told what Harry's favorite book > >> is, i would take this caption as being "canonical fact" as there is no > >> reason not to! > > Mysmacek replied: > > > Please no :-). Even the movie is not reliable. I do not recommend > > believing merchandise at all. That we do not know otherwise does not > > mean that it's a truth (truth at least in Potterverse, I mean) > Katy again: > Again i must ask, WHY NOT? Nobody has given me a good reason thus far as to WHY we should refute facts retrieved from objects other than the books if they do not contradict what is in the books! > > Here's one good reason why we SHOULD accept them as fact (or "canon"): so far, we've been told that JKR is only writing 7 Harry Potter books. SEVEN. #5 is about to come out and then only 2 more to go. What then? What else will we have to turn to to satiate our thirst for Potter-knowledge? I'll tell you - OTHER licensed sources. I don't know about you, but it would thrill me to learn more facts after the series is complete. > Annemehr: This is why I will never accept licensed articles as any part of canon: because JKR is never going to be *personally* designing them. We have two possibilities. On the one hand, the licensed merchandise could be created with *absolute* faithfulness to what's in the books, in which case it would add nothing to canon (and, IMO, be impossible anyway). On the other hand, the creator of the merchandise uses his or her imagination to fill in certain details, in which case the item is no more canon than posts of people's opinions on this list or fanfic that tries to remain true to the books (i.e. non-AU fic). I, too, feel that I will not be learning all that I want to about Harry Potter's world in seven books. However, I personally would not feel that taking in other people's ideas about this world would be the same as learning new *facts* about it. Just as I will enjoy reading opinions here, if I see some merchandise I like I may buy it, but I will not take any of it as canon. Furthermore, two pieces of merchandise may contradict one another; which one would you then believe? By the way, it seems all the merchandise is licensed by Warner Bros., not JKR, am I right? Annemehr holding out hope that JKR writes more about Harry's world beyond book seven some day... From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Apr 21 20:42:28 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 20:42:28 -0000 Subject: honorifics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55800 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "The Fox" wrote: > From: "Steve" > > > >Madam was originally used as a courtesy title before a woman's > >given name, but in modern usage is either used before a woman's > >surname or title, as in Madam Smith, Madam Chairman, or Madam > >President. >Fox: > > Do you have a cite for that, out of curiosity? bboy_mn: My source is the dictionary (Am. Heritage CD) and general life experience. > Fox: > ...edited... > > I can think of no situation in which an English-speaking woman > married to an English-speaking man whose last name was Smith would > be called "Madam Smith". > bboy_mn: Use of the word 'Madam' has all but vanished in the real world. As a courtesy reference, the 'D' has been dropped from 'madam' and on the rare occassions when it is used, it comes out as "ma'am" as in "Yes sir" and "yes ma'am". The only situation I can think of, would be a very formal and very rich household in which the butler might say something like "Madam Smith will see you now". Madam, among other things, refers to the matriarch of a household. It could be the wife of a husband and wife pair, or it could be the live-in mother or live-in mother-in-law. > >bboy_mn originally said: > >In more general usage, I think the key is age. ...edited.... > >Age 30 to 40 is kind of the grey area. > > Fox: > > But the female students in the wizarding world are never called > "Miss Hermione" and "Miss Penelope". bboy_mn: The key is 'in general usage'. In real life, it is common for the term "Miss" to be used this way. It is most common, when a person is very familiar with the young girl being addressed, but still wants to add a friendly sense of formality. In practical use, this is or at least, was very common in the southern US. It would also be common among servants of the friendly but formal rich. The maid, or butler might refer to the youngest daughter of the house as Miss Sally. > Fox: > > ...edited... > My question is, why do we have Mrs. Diggory and Mrs. Malfoy, but > Madam Pomfrey and Madam Hooch? > > I stand by my earlier theory -- that "Madam" is used by witches > whose marital status is irrelevant to the discussion requiring their > names. > > Fox (Ms.) bboy_mn: It still say the distinction is age and marital status. You know you are old when waiters and clerks start referring to you as Madam instead of Miss. Actually, I see three key factors; age, marital status, and matriarchal status. - Age - once a woman passes a certain age, she becomes a madam. - Marital Status - I see this being used as a term of respect for old spinsters. Perhaps older unmarried women gain the title as they are the default matriarch of their household. Also, used as you suggested, as a marriage-neutral form of address for an older woman in the same sense that some women use Ms. I don't mean to imply that the term is reserved for unmarried women. As you pointed out, the word stems from the French 'Madame' which specifically refers to a married woman. - Matriarchal Status - used to formally address a woman of dominance and power, or the head of a household. As applied to the wizard world and Hogwarts, I think Madam Pince, Madam Hooch, and Madam Pomfrey are all older women who have no academic credentials, and who do not teach acedemic subjects, who are either unmarried and therefore need a title more dignified and respectful than Miss but since they are unmarried, wouldn't be called Mrs. Or, as you sugggested, are using a title the hides their marital status. Personally, I'm voting for old and unmarried. Note that while Madam Hooch is a teacher, she doesn't not teach an acedemic subject; she is more of a sports coach, and would therefore, not deserve the title Professor. My personal opinion is that Professor is not just a courtesy title for a teacher, but an acedemic credential equivalent to a Masters Degree. This explains why Hagrid isn't a professor even thought he is a teacher. Care of Magical Creatures is just as acedemic as Prof. Sprout's herbology class, but Prof. Sprout has the acedemic credentials. Just a thought. bboy_mn From innermurk at catlover.com Mon Apr 21 20:24:39 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 20:24:39 -0000 Subject: In defense of Harry's honor/Dumbledore's parties Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55801 There have been a lot of posts recently that rebuke Harry for never thanking Snape for saving his life. I don't think that Harry's really had the chance to do so, and I fully believe that if that chance should come up, he would do so immediately. In PS/SS Snape certainly saved him during the Quidditch match, (although it could be argued that Hermione was more effective and was the one who ultimately saved his life) but Harry was never in a position to know that he did until Quirrell told him so at the end. He couldn't rush out of the final challenge to thank Snape then, and he was lying unconcious for three days afterwards IIRC. Dumbledore never brought up exactly what Snape did to help Harry during their talk, and implied that Snape was trying to pay back a life debt he owed James, something Harry didn't know anything about. The fact is, there was very little time left in the stay at Hogwarts to allow Harry any interaction with Snape. Snape didn't come to visit him in the hospital wing that we or Harry know of, so he couldn't thank him there. Classes were over, so Harry didn't have any stay late for class excuses to interact with Snape. Unless he'd gone up to the teacher's table in the Great Hall during the feast (and with Snape's reaction to Gryffindor winning the House Cup would you have?!) and thanked him then, he really didn't have a chance. Harry might've sent a note to thank him. We certainly don't know if he has or not. After all he buys presents for birthdays that we never hear about, and I'm sure there are other things that cannot fit into the plot. Its a bit of an awkward situation though isn't it? Snape has never come forward to tell Harry himself that he saved him, or was trying to help him. He's only ever been openly hostile towards him. If Snape doesn't know that Quirrell or Dumbledore mentioned him at all to Harry, he most likely doesn't have any reason to suspect that Harry knows at all. If they hadn't told Harry, he would have no reason to suspect that Snape was trying to help him. It's exactly because Snape is so cruel to him that he suspected Snape of being the bad guy in the first place. And remember that it was Hermione that thought Snape was trying to kill Harry during the Quidditch match. Harry just took her word for it, because he had no idea what was up with his broom. In POA Snape's whole "saving" of Harry depends on your point of view and which theory you subscribe to. When Harry was in the SS he didn't really need saving. So Snape might think he saved him and Harry knows he didn't. Why then should he thank him since in Harry's POV he was perfectly safe the whole time? When Harry et all were being threatened by the dementors, Snape was lying unconcious. He didn't save Harry then, and in fact it could be construed that Harry saved him! Harry was the one who cast the Patronus Charm that stopped the dementors from giving him the Kiss. Would they have stopped with just him, or would they have cleaned up by giving everyone present the Kiss? We aren't sure how much time went by before Snape woke up and he could just as easily have become Dementor prey as Harry was. We aren't sure if Snape knows exactly what happened that night, and so we aren't sure if he knows that Harry saved his life (or soul or both depending on how you look at it) We can just as easily say, why hasn't Snape thanked Harry for saving his life!? Both situations are as follows: Both saved the other without the other's direct knowledge. Both would have to bring the subject up without knowing the whole story. Both would have to admit some kind of misperception about the other. Both would have to admit some kind of guilt/debt to the other. I think they both decided that there were too many things underlying the stories to bring them up safely. I'm sure there are other instances or examples that I've missed. I just wanted to stand up for Harry as I've never understood why he should be under attack for this particular thing. I believe Harry gives Snape an awful lot of respect for the treatment that he recieves from him. Just to be perfectly clear.....I believe Snape has his reasons, but I don't believe they're all perfectly unselfish. And if his whole treatment of Harry is part of some larger plan that Harry isn't clued into, he shouldn't be so bitter that Harry doesn't particularly care for him. Taken at face value, he has no reason to. Harry is a lot more forgiving than I would be. And I believe he wouldn't hesitate to save Snape again if it was needed. On another note in a post a while ago (sorry I don't have the name or a reference) someone also said that Dumbledore attended several parties before coming to Privet Drive and that shed some sort of doubt as to his character. In my US version of SS, he says he PASSED several parties on his way. I always took this to mean he was trying to focus on the good of what happened (that Voldemort is gone and his reign of terror has ended) and is trying to help McGonagall do the same. He never said he attended any of the parties, just that he passed by them. I couldn't let DD go under that kind of attack and not stand up for him. Innermurk knowing that Snapeologists everywhere will be rebuking me now as well. From grace701 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 21 20:48:15 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 20:48:15 -0000 Subject: SHIPping Attitudes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55802 > wrote: > >> now that we'veheard JKR say that "certain feelings" between > the three of them will come intoplay, I'm even more convinced > that the "platonic friends" comment was aslimited and narrow in > time scope as I've always believed.<< > > Pippin replied: <<< missed something, but has anybody pointed out that it's also a > more mature feeling to be able to accept a hug from your > platonic friend without discomfort? > > Hermione's a hugger, and IIRC in canon it makes both boys > uncomfortable right up through the end of GoF, where Harry gets > a hug and doesn't fend her off (but it's undercut by the Kiss). If > JKR wants us to see Ron and Hermione's first mutual hug as a > Big Moment, she (and Kloves) are building up to it the right > way.>>>>>>> > > Penny rejoined: > >>>I'm not sure I'm following the transition from Rowling > conceding that the romance angle involves feelings between all > *3* members of the Trio to a R/H Big Moment. :--)<< Pippin wrote: > Eh? Where did Rowling mention a "romance angle"? She said, > "...you get hints of certain feelings between the three of them, > that belong to a sort of a, a slightly more mature person." My > point is, there's more than one sort of mature feeling. > > Boys transitioning to adolescence are apt to be prickly about > being hugged by girls or even by their mothers. At the end of > GoF, Harry gets kissed, and doesn't yelp, "Hermione!" . He lets > Molly hug him and doesn't wish Ron wasn't looking on. Those > are more mature feelings than we saw earlier, IMO, and > foreshadow Harry's becoming more comfortable with affection > in general. Okay I tried not to get involved in this SHIPping debate because I absolutely talk nonsense when I do, but I would like to slightly disagree with what Pippin wrote above. Yes Harry is becoming older and mature, but with the R---->Hr clues that we get from GoF, how can it not make the majority of us think that the "mature feeling" that they are *all* feeling is not romantic. We see it all around in GoF from Cedric and Cho to Fleur and Roger Davies (I think it was him). Harry is realizing this more than anything else. And it is something that Chris Columbus incorporates in CoS. We don't see anyone else hugging Harry in the movie besides Hermione. Where was Mrs. Weasley to give him a hug or Charlie to give him a slap on the back when he swooshes away to talk to good old Mr. Weasley. We just get Mrs. Weasley asking him if he wants a "spot of breakfast", no kiss or hug when he arrives. It is clear to me that Chris Columbus, Kloves and JKR are insinuating romantic feelings between, or amongst, the three. Greicy, who's going back to lurking From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Apr 21 20:51:06 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 20:51:06 -0000 Subject: Hagrid as Gamekeeper In-Reply-To: <3a.37c7c740.2bd570dc@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55803 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jodel at a... wrote: > > bboy_mn writes: > > << ...they knew if they really took a close look at what happened, > they would see that it couldn't have been Hagrid who killed that girl. >> > > Actually, as a point of order, no one ever *did* think that Hagrid > had killed Myrtle. Thery thought that one of Hagrid's pet monsters > had gotten away from him and killed her. > > He was expelled for deliberately bringing dangerous monsters into > the castle and putting people at risk. > > -JOdel bboy_mn: You took me a little too literally. I simply meant that Hagrid bore some responsibility for the death, not that he personally killed the girl. It should have read something like, '...couldn't have been Hagrid who was responsible for that girls death'. The point being that even the most superficial investigation would have pointed out that these people weren't attacked by Hagrid's spider. But they didn't care, they had a scapegoat, and they could put the matter to rest. Just a thought. bboy_mn From jodel at aol.com Mon Apr 21 20:53:45 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 16:53:45 EDT Subject: Honorifics Message-ID: <1d7.7a26634.2bd5b459@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55804 Fox asks: << My question is, why do we have Mrs. Diggory and Mrs. Malfoy, but Madam Pomfrey and Madam Hooch? >> Because we are depending on the perceptions of a Muggle-raised PoV character. Have we ever heard Molly Weasley actually *called* Mrs. Weasley by anyone other than Harry or the narriator? Have we ever heard Draco's mother *called* Mrs Malfoy? I don't think so. That's Harry filling in the blanks acording to the customs in which he was raised. The witches who are refered to as "Madam" such-and-such are the ones he has *heard* refered to as such. I suspect that inside the wizarding world it is Madam Malfoy and Madam Weasley, not Mrs. -JOdel From JessaDrow at aol.com Mon Apr 21 20:55:11 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 16:55:11 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hagrid as Gamekeeper Message-ID: <1a4.13446ff2.2bd5b4af@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55805 In a message dated 4/21/03 4:53:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bboy_mn at yahoo.com writes: > The point being that even the most superficial investigation would > have pointed out that these people weren't attacked by Hagrid's > spider. But they didn't care, they had a scapegoat, and they could put > the matter to rest. > But now that it's been put to rest exactly what happened, and that Hadrig wasn't responsible, shouldn't he have had his name cleared, and wand restored? ~Faith~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Apr 21 21:12:29 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 21:12:29 -0000 Subject: Harry not related to the Dursleys? In-Reply-To: <20030421182108.5373.qmail@web40507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55806 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Kathryn Wolber wrote: > > > Gina Rosich wrote: > > > In a message dated 4/21/03 1:32:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > SaBoTaGe3p3 at h... writes: > > > ... he didn't see the Dursleys. No Aunt Petunia or Dudley... So > > does that mean that the Dursleys aren't related to Harry?? ... > > > > > Me: It doesn't show the truth or the future, just the deepest desires of Harry's heart. Harry desires to be with his parents and have a big supportive family. The Dursley's are mean to him and hate everything about him and his parents...so family or not, he doesn't want them there so of course, they would not be present in the Mirror of Erised. > > ~Kathryn bboy_mn: Kathryn, I think you are on the right track here. Dumbledore, referring to what Harry saw in the mirror says, "You, who have never known your family, see them standing around you." Harry longs for the family he has /never known/. He is aching inside for all the missing pieces to the puzzle. He knows the Dursleys, so they aren't 'missing pieces'. So he sees the part of his family that are his 'deepest desire', the parts of his family he has never know. Just a thought. bboy_mn From bard7696 at aol.com Mon Apr 21 21:13:37 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 21:13:37 -0000 Subject: In defense of Harry's honor/Dumbledore's parties In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55807 > Innermurk > knowing that Snapeologists everywhere will be rebuking me now as well. After SS/PS, which Snape was doing to discharge a life debt, when has Snape "saved" Harry from anything? He wasn't involved in the CoS climax. He wasn't actually saving Harry from Black and at the very least, his motives had as much to do with nailing Black as they did saving Harry. In GoF, he doesn't have a role in saving Harry except to follow Dumbledore into Moody's office. In at least one instance, he has put Harry in more danger with his selfishness. He drove off Lupin for purely petty reasons -- I'm not subscribing to Evil!Lupin -- leaving an opening, which gave V-Mort a shot at putting his own guy in at Hogwarts. I'd argue that if Snape had calmed down and listened to reason, perhaps Harry and Hermione's version of the events in the Shrieking Shack carry more weight and Sirius would have eventually been cleared. Tell me Harry is safer with his godfather on the run. And anyway, when Snape thanks James, maybe then Harry should thank Snape. Until we know what Snape's motives are, and have always been, I think we should withhold calls for Harry to get all thankful. Darrin -- Got any good band names? From william.truderung at sympatico.ca Mon Apr 21 21:21:57 2003 From: william.truderung at sympatico.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 21:21:57 -0000 Subject: In defense of Harry's honor/Dumbledore's parties In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55808 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "innermurk" wrote: 'On another note in a post a while ago (sorry I don't have the name or a reference) someone also said that Dumbledore attended several parties before coming to Privet Drive and that shed some sort of doubt as to his character. In my US version of SS, he says he PASSED several parties on his way. I always took this to mean he was trying to focus on the good of what happened (that Voldemort is gone and his reign of terror has ended) and is trying to help McGonagall do the same. He never said he attended any of the parties, just that he passed by them. I couldn't let DD go under that kind of attack and not stand up for him.' Here is the (Canadian) Raincoast edition, which is identical to the (UK) Bloomsbury edition: '...I must have passed a dozen feasts and parties on the way here.' Bill From annemehr at yahoo.com Mon Apr 21 21:25:39 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 21:25:39 -0000 Subject: The Philosopher's Stone (Was: PS/SS Title Change) In-Reply-To: <20030421190641.33510.qmail@web21501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55809 I, too, would like to read more -- there is nothing wrong with relating religious thought to canon; we have done it before. I just have a couple short questions to start with, though. Hans wrote: >Hence our group could also be called "The Order of the Phoenix". The >phoenix >is the most refulgent symbol of the self-sacrifice of the earthly >I-centred personality for the immortal heir-y-Potter. > Annemehr: Do you mean that your group could reasonably be called "The Order of the Phoenix" or that it actually sometimes *is* called such? Hans again: >Sometimes I wake up in the morning thinking to myself that >it just can't be true that a girl of 24 was inspired for 4 hours to >record the greatest, most powerful story ever told: the liberation of >man. But then I think about Harry with the mark of Cain on his >forehead and I realise it's true. Annemehr: How can it be the mark of Cain that Harry bears on his forehead? Cain carried that mark because he was a *murderer.* Annemehr quite curious From amani at charter.net Mon Apr 21 21:28:29 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 17:28:29 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione, Gilderoy, and What Makes a Gryffindor References: <0DB4122C.63CD21DD.022D3A68@aol.com> Message-ID: <003e01c3084c$f3a32d40$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55810 Audra: A day or two ago, somebody brought up the question of what House Gilderoy Lockheart would have been in, assuming he went to Hogwarts. Some of you were also discussing why Hermione wasn't sorted into Ravenclaw. I was thinking that, if anything, Gilderoy Lockheart would have been in Gryffindor, and for the same reason that Hermione is in Gryffindor. The Sorting Hat gets into an individual's mind and finds out what qualities that individual *prizes* in a good wizard, and matches them with the Founder that prized the same qualities. Likewise, I think it's evident that Gilderoy Lockheart *prizes* bravery over cleverness, hard work, or power. Even though he did not actually perform the brave acts he boasts of in his books, facing down all sorts of dangerous monsters, the image of the brave hero is wants he wants to proport for himself. He wants to attain this brave, laughing-in-the-face-of-danger image over any other. So clearly he indentifies most with the qualities prized by Godric Gryffindor. Me: I disagree entirely. Just because Gilderoy chooses to put on that particular image does /not/ mean he /prizes/ those characteristics. But what better way to gain fame than being a hero? He's loved, adored, and empowered, and that's what he wants. --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From william.truderung at sympatico.ca Mon Apr 21 21:44:41 2003 From: william.truderung at sympatico.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 21:44:41 -0000 Subject: The Philosopher's Stone (Was: PS/SS Title Change) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55811 Hans: 'Sometimes I wake up in the morning thinking to myself that it just can't be true that a girl of 24 was inspired for 4 hours to record the greatest, most powerful story ever told: the liberation of man. But then I think about Harry with the mark of Cain on his forehead and I realise it's true.' Annemehr: 'How can it be the mark of Cain that Harry bears on his forehead? Cain carried that mark because he was a *murderer.*' Me: It seems to me that the *origin* of Cain's and Harry's marks are different (although they both involved attempted murder, and the 'death' of a rival), but their *effect* was to mark both of them out as unique among humans, the objects of fascination and distrust. Bill From liliana at worldonline.nl Mon Apr 21 20:43:12 2003 From: liliana at worldonline.nl (laylalast) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 20:43:12 -0000 Subject: Snape's attitude to Harry (Was: Snape at the end of GoF) In-Reply-To: <001101c3076f$704d8a40$bb04a6d8@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55812 I haven't been on this list very long yet but joined primarily because of all the interesting discussions going on about Snape. Now Snape's behaviour at the end of GoF is (once more I believe?) discussed, I'd like to throw in my ideas. IMHO Snape looking at Harry at the end of GoF may have little to do with regarding Harry in a different way. Snape has been accusing Harry in the past of bending and breaking the rules, strutting (like his father), stealing from his office and whatever else came his way. How did Snape phrase it? ,You're nothing but a nasty boy to me, who thinks that rules are beneath him.'' or something like that. But now Snape has revealed, in the presence of Harry, that he has been a DE for crying out loud! Rather difficult for Snape to continue punishing Harry for breaking rules, when the DE's are known to have tortured and murdered, and probably did a lot of other vicious things. And more, the leader of the DE's has murdered Harry's parents. Snape may have turned good, but he was once (still? who knows yet?) part of that gang. I believe that his attitude has changed (if it has entirely) because he realises that Harry has the upper hand now. Harry has been bending and breaking rules, and sometimes with good reasons, but these are the rules of Hogwarts, the disciplinary rules of a school. Those rules are nothing in comparison to, among others, the basic rule "You shall not kill" which Snape has been, at least, an accomplice to. So Snape may still hate Harry but is now in a rather difficult position to continue to publicly show this when Harry can point a finger to him and say: ,you have helped my parents getting murdered!''. Btw, I really like Darrin's suggestion about Narcissa as a kind of spy and hope ot get back on this as soon as my prelim is behind me. Laylalast (hoping that Snape will be redeemed, even if it has to be in another way) From h_potter_uk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Apr 21 21:03:04 2003 From: h_potter_uk at yahoo.co.uk (Jenny) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 21:03:04 -0000 Subject: FILK: Hogwarts Quidditch Fight Song Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55813 This song is an original by me. I'd try to give you a tune for it, but it changes everytime I sing it. So, as Professor Dumbledore would say, pick your favorite tune and sing along: THE QUIDDITCH FIGHT SONG (Sung During or Before Quidditch Matches by the Students,Teams, and Faculty of Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry) --by J.Lynn - 12/12/02 (I wrote this awhile ago...) On, on with honor, To the Quidditch pitch. Fly for your House team, Catch the Golden Snitch. Victory will find you, In your robes of gold or green, possibly of red or blue, Flying for your team. Hogwarts will cheer you on, no matter how you do. You may have broken both your legs, or come back black and blue. Beat those bludgers back, my lads, And lasses catch the Snitch. You're bound to win the Quidditch Cup, on the Hogwarts Pitch. So On, On with honor, To the Quidditch Pitch. Fly for your House team, catch the Golden Snitch. *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Enjoy! Yours in Gryffindor, Jenny :) From the_fox01 at hotmail.com Mon Apr 21 21:14:40 2003 From: the_fox01 at hotmail.com (The Fox) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 17:14:40 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: honorifics Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55814 From: Patricia Bullington-McGuire >Fox wrote: >>I stand by my earlier theory -- that "Madam" is used by witches whose >>marital status is irrelevant to the discussion requiring their names. > >Possibly, but it also seems to be used primarily by women who are in >positions of authority. Madam Hooch, Madam Pomfrey and Madam Pince are all >important people at the school and children are expected to obey them, even >if they are not full professors. Madam Rosmerta's position doesn't seem as >lofty (perhaps that's why she seems to use her first name with 'Madam'), >but she is the proprietor of her own establishment and is the head honcho >within those doors. That's a possibility. But aren't children expected to obey other children's mothers, just as they're expected to obey the school nurse and the flying instructor and the librarian? Why is Mrs. Weasley not Madam Weasley? More to the point, if you're right -- and I think it's a combination of my suggestion and yours, i.e. "Madam" is used by women in professional settings when their marital status is irrelevant -- why is there not a different honorific for men in the corresponding situations? Mr. Weasley and Mr. Malfoy and Mr. Diggory are the same Mr. as Mr. Ollivander and Mr. Filch, I mean to say. Fox _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From Ali at zymurgy.org Mon Apr 21 22:37:30 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 22:37:30 -0000 Subject: In defense of Harry's honor/Dumbledore's parties In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55815 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" <. >>> After SS/PS, which Snape was doing to discharge a life debt, when has Snape "saved" Harry from anything? In at least one instance, he has put Harry in more danger with his selfishness. He drove off Lupin for purely petty reasons -- I'm not subscribing to Evil!Lupin -- leaving an opening, which gave V-Mort a shot at putting his own guy in at Hogwarts. <<< I have to disagree with you here, Darrin. I can't help remembering Dumbledore's words after Harry saved Pettigrew; time is just too complicated to assume that Snape's effective dismissal of Lupin was the cause of Crouch-Moody going to Hogwarts, anymore than Harry was responsible for Voldemort's rise by saving Pettigrew. I do agree that Snape is selfish, he is rash, but above all, he is complicated. Isn't that why he has such a following in fandom? >>> And anyway, when Snape thanks James, maybe then Harry should thank Snape. Until we know what Snape's motives are, and have always been, I think we should withhold calls for Harry to get all thankful.<<< How exactly is Snape meant to thank James? And do two wrongs make a right? In PS/SS Snape was trying to reciprocate James' act, to the only person he could with James gone - Harry. I'm sure that LOONs have been through the books and gathered up statistics on Wizards who say thank you, and Harry came out top. So he does say thank you, and either he did to Snape "offlist" or it was simply not appropriate. I'm not sure that Snape would have wanted his action acknowledged in PS/SS which is strange when he did in PoA when in fact he didn't save Harry. Anyway, welcome back Darrin! Ali From the_fox01 at hotmail.com Mon Apr 21 22:12:20 2003 From: the_fox01 at hotmail.com (The Fox) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 18:12:20 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: honorifics Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55816 From: "Steve" >Fox wrote: >>I can think of no situation in which an English-speaking woman married to >>an English-speaking man whose last name was Smith would be called "Madam >>Smith". > >Use of the word 'Madam' has all but vanished in the real world. As a >courtesy reference, the 'D' has been dropped from 'madam' and on the rare >occassions when it is used, it comes out as "ma'am" as in "Yes sir" and >"yes ma'am". Exactly. Never with a proper name -- only on its own. >The only situation I can think of, would be a very formal and very rich >household in which the butler might say something like "Madam Smith will >see you now". I find that highly unlikely. The handful of families I've known who had that kind of money (and houses where the doorbell only rang in the pantry, that kind of thing) have been headed by a Mr. and Mrs., just like everybody else. >>But the female students in the wizarding world are never called "Miss >>Hermione" and "Miss Penelope". > >The key is 'in general usage'. In real life, it is common for the term >"Miss" to be used this way. It is most common, when a person is very >familiar with the young girl being addressed, but still wants to add a >friendly sense of formality. In practical use, this is or at least, was >very common in the southern US. It would also be common among servants of >the friendly but formal rich. The maid, or butler might refer to the >youngest daughter of the house as Miss Sally. It's not precisely common here any longer, but it's certainly more common than it is elsewhere. Calling an elementary school teacher (or similar prominent adult in a small child's life) Miss Hermione is less formal than calling her Miss Granger. >I still say the distinction is age and marital status. You know you are old >when waiters and clerks start referring to you as Madam instead of Miss. In my experience, waiters and clerks start calling female customers "ma'am" (never "madam") instead of "miss" when they're old enough to conduct their business on their own, independent of their mothers. I've been "ma'am" since I was about fourteen -- hardly old. :-) Conversely, a lot of waitresses continue to be "miss" (with no last name) until they're too old to work any more. In general, "ma'am" outranks "miss", so "miss" is in a serving position and "ma'am" is the one being served. >- Marital Status - I see this being used as a term of respect for old >spinsters. Perhaps older unmarried women gain the title as they are the >default matriarch of their household. I'm having a hard time reconciling that (to say nothing of "spinster" -- god, does anybody use that word any more? [g]) with this: >Madam, among other things, refers to the matriarch of a household. It could >be the wife of a husband and wife pair, or it could be the live-in mother >or live-in mother-in-law. There is no matriarch if there's no family for her to head up. So an unmarried woman living alone isn't a matriarch -- she's just a single woman. I don't see how the honorific "Madam" (as opposed to the courtesy title "ma'am") can be reserved for both spinsters and matriarchs. >As applied to the wizard world and Hogwarts, I think Madam Pince, Madam >Hooch, and Madam Pomfrey are all older women who have no academic >credentials, and who do not teach acedemic subjects, who are either >unmarried and therefore need a title more dignified and respectful than >Miss Whoa, hold on. Since when is "Miss" (capital letter, with a surname) undignified? I imagine Miss Manners, Miss Prism, and Miss Jean Brodie (the antecedent of our dear Professor McGonagall [g]) would have a couple of things to say about that. Miss LastName is a perfectly respectable, correct way to address an unmarried adult woman. >but since they are unmarried, wouldn't be called Mrs. Or, as you >sugggested, are using a title the hides their marital status. Personally, >I'm voting for old and unmarried. On what basis? We know Mrs. Weasley and Mrs. Diggory and Mrs. Malfoy are married, but we have no way of knowing anything one way or the other about any of the other witches. Fox ........... Matthew 7:1 Luke 6:37 ... "You want to tempt the wrath of the whatever from high atop the thing?" -- West Wing ... Come on, Nature Just because I don't feel weak Don't mean I feel so strong. -- the Proclaimers .............................. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 21 23:40:41 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 23:40:41 -0000 Subject: Hagrid as Gamekeeper In-Reply-To: <1a4.13446ff2.2bd5b4af@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55817 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, JessaDrow at a... wrote: > In a message dated 4/21/03 4:53:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > bboy_mn at y... writes: > > > The point being that even the most superficial investigation > > would have pointed out that these people weren't attacked by > > Hagrid's spider. But they didn't care, they had a scapegoat, and > > they could put the matter to rest. > > > > But now that it's been put to rest exactly what happened, and that > Hagrid wasn't responsible, shouldn't he have had his name cleared, > and wand restored? > > ~Faith~ Well, I think Dumbledore did symbolically make it obvious that Hagrid's name was cleared, by making him Care of Magical Creatures teacher in PoA. As for unexpelling him from Hogwarts - difficult. Hagrid may not have opened the Chamber of Secrets, but he did keep a Acromantula (sp.?) at Hogwarts. A re-examination of the original expulsion might just come to the conclusion that keeping pets that eat people is an 'expulsion' offence anyway ... Pip!Squeak (AKA Pip) From JessaDrow at aol.com Mon Apr 21 23:47:26 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 19:47:26 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hagrid as Gamekeeper Message-ID: <7a.3dfc52bb.2bd5dd0e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55818 In a message dated 4/21/03 7:44:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk writes: > Well, I think Dumbledore did symbolically make it obvious that > Hagrid's name was cleared, by making him Care of Magical Creatures > teacher in PoA. > Maybe I'm just obsessing, but I really want to see Hadrig given his wand back. ~Faith~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From the_fox01 at hotmail.com Mon Apr 21 23:24:03 2003 From: the_fox01 at hotmail.com (The Fox) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 19:24:03 -0400 Subject: honorifics Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55819 Jodel said: >Fox asks: >>My question is, why do we have Mrs. Diggory and Mrs. Malfoy, but Madam >>Pomfrey and Madam Hooch? > >Because we are depending on the perceptions of a Muggle-raised PoV >character. Have we ever heard Molly Weasley actually *called* Mrs. Weasley >by anyone other than Harry or the narriator? Have we ever heard Draco's mother *called* Mrs Malfoy? I don't think so. That's Harry filling in the blanks acording to the customs in which he was raised. > >The witches who are refered to as "Madam" such-and-such are the ones he has >*heard* refered to as such. I suspect that inside the wizarding world it is Madam Malfoy and Madam Weasley, not Mrs. That's a good thought, too. But we know the honorific "Mrs." exists in the wizarding world -- Filch's cat isn't called Madam Norris. (And doesn't Dumbledore refer to Cedric's mother as Mrs. Diggory?) Also -- Steve (bboy_mn) said: >My personal opinion is that Professor is not just a courtesy title for a >teacher, but an acedemic credential equivalent to a Masters Degree. This >explains why Hagrid isn't a professor even thought he is a teacher. Care of >Magical Creatures is just as acedemic as Prof. Sprout's herbology class, >but Prof. Sprout has the acedemic credentials. Yes, and the previous Care of Magical Creatures teacher was Professor Kettleburn, so it's not a matter of the material. At the same time, though, Lockhart doesn't have a shred of academic credentials that we know of (when would he have accumulated them?), and the odds are neither does Lupin or Moody, and yet all three are called Professor. Fox ........... Matthew 7:1 Luke 6:37 ... "You want to tempt the wrath of the whatever from high atop the thing?" -- West Wing ... Come on, Nature Just because I don't feel weak Don't mean I feel so strong. -- the Proclaimers .............................. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From galadriel1 at mail.charter.net Mon Apr 21 23:51:29 2003 From: galadriel1 at mail.charter.net (abhamghp) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 23:51:29 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore had a number of useful spies Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55820 I was just rereading PoA when something kind of jumped out at me. In Chapter 10, The Marauder's Map, a number of faculty are discussing James and Sirius' relationship in Hogwarts days and the secret - keeper that Lily and James chose. Fudge states, "Dumbledore, who was working tirelessly against You Know Who, had a number of useful spies. One of them tipped him off, and he alerted James and Lily at once." I wonder who that one spy was, and if this has any significance to the outcome of the entire story. Does anyone have any ideas? --galadriel-- From yutu at wanadoo.es Tue Apr 22 00:14:27 2003 From: yutu at wanadoo.es (izaskun granda) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 02:14:27 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore had a number of useful spies References: Message-ID: <008101c30864$243ee7c0$aa91253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 55821 I was just rereading PoA when something kind of jumped out at me. In Chapter 10, The Marauder's Map, a number of faculty are discussing James and Sirius' relationship in Hogwarts days and the secret - keeper that Lily and James chose. Fudge states, "Dumbledore, who was working tirelessly against You Know Who, had a number of useful spies. One of them tipped him off, and he alerted James and Lily at once." I wonder who that one spy was, and if this has any significance to the outcome of the entire story. Does anyone have any ideas? --galadriel-- me: Well I think this particular spy was Snape, that maybe one of the reasons why DD trusts him so explicitly, and don't forget Snape owes his life to James Potter, so it makes sense he tried to safe James' life by warning DD. What I wonder is who are the other spies??? We know for sure Snape was one of them, any thought about the others??? By the way, this may link one of the other topics. What was Snape's mission at the end of GoF?. Getting in contact with these other spies, probably and setting a plan of action. Izaskun Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? 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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From siriuskase at earthlink.net Tue Apr 22 00:19:46 2003 From: siriuskase at earthlink.net (siriuskase) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 00:19:46 -0000 Subject: Disease and Sickness In-Reply-To: <20030420015624.71282.qmail@web20010.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55822 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rebecca Stephens wrote: > > --- fandulin wrote: > > > Is there anything in canon or conjecture that > > mentions sickness and > > disease in the wizarding world? I've been > > re-reading the books > > recently and although it's clear that they are > > subject to all manner > > of injuries, curses, and wounds, I can't remember an > > instance of > > someone coming down with any run-of-the-mill colds, > > aches, sniffles, > > or anything like that. > > > IIRC, there was mention of a cold or something of the > sort in COS. Isn't that why people were taking Pepper > Up potion? In PoA, Trelawney predicted that there would a flu outbreak after Christmas, does that count? sirius kase > > > Rebecca > > ===== > http://wychlaran.tripod.com > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo > http://search.yahoo.com From jmholmes at breckcomm.com Tue Apr 22 00:26:49 2003 From: jmholmes at breckcomm.com (Julie Holmes) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 18:26:49 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore had a number of useful spies References: Message-ID: <002101c30865$de649a40$6501a8c0@slytherincess> No: HPFGUIDX 55823 <----- Original Message ----- From: abhamghp> Funny, but I had the same thing happen recently, reading that exact passage. The easy answer, of course, I believe is Snape. But there are other Death Eaters whose identities we don't know yet. I know that JKR has alluded to us finding out something important about Snape in book 7. I wonder if it's related? No answers here, just speculation. I'm wondering too! ~Julie From siriuskase at earthlink.net Tue Apr 22 00:50:01 2003 From: siriuskase at earthlink.net (siriuskase) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 00:50:01 -0000 Subject: Disease and Sickness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55824 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "herm - own - ninny" wrote: No need for bedrest though, since wizards use magic to > deal with them, like the Pepperup potion that leaves you smoking at the ears > (one of my personal favorites :) > > dina > Reminds me very much of my favorite cold remedy, that hot yellow mustardy stuff that you put on egg rolls. When I feel particularly under the weather, I eat chinese just to get that stuff. sirius kase From Audra1976 at aol.com Tue Apr 22 00:51:58 2003 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 20:51:58 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 2704 Message-ID: <2CC57A39.0437AA2F.022D3A68@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55825 I wrote: I was thinking that, if anything, Gilderoy Lockheart would have been in Gryffindor I think it's evident that Gilderoy Lockheart *prizes* bravery over cleverness, hard work, or power. ... He wants to attain this brave, laughing-in-the-face-of-danger image over any other. So clearly he indentifies most with the qualities prized by Godric Gryffindor. Laila responded: I think he shows distinct Slytherin qualities if you ask me. Being a Gryffindor also has to do with choices. Gilderoy is too ambitious for his own good and will stop at nothing to get what he wants. He doesn't seem to care who he hurts along the way. These don't seem like Gryffindor traits to me. MaggieB agreed: I guess I believe that Lockhart is a Slytherin because he actually prizes power--power over women, power over The Daily Prophet's bestseller list. . . Me again: Okay, okay. I do see Lockheart's ambitiousness as a stereotypical Slytherin trait. And Laila, you're right , the difference between being sorted into Slytherin or Gryffindor has a lot to do with *choices*, just like in Harry's case. *So* I'm sure Gilderoy Lockheart has always been somewhat of a dandy. He's got the Sorting Hat on his head, which is thinking about putting him in Slytherin.... *Slytherin*, skulking around in the dark, dirty dungeons wearing apalling *dark green* and *grey* accessories, as opposed to *Gryffindor*, living in a tower with a nice view of the grounds, and wearing some smart bright red and gold accessories. Hmmm, I can imagine Gilderoy Lockheart repeating just like Harry did, "Not Slytherin, not Slytherin, not Slytherin..." ;) -Audra- From JessaDrow at aol.com Tue Apr 22 00:59:33 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 20:59:33 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore had a number of useful spies Message-ID: <16b.1d85ee59.2bd5edf5@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55826 In a message dated 4/21/03 8:53:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, galadriel1 at mail.charter.net writes: > In Chapter 10, The Marauder's Map, a number of faculty are > discussing James and Sirius' relationship in Hogwarts days and the > secret - keeper that Lily and James chose. Fudge states, "Dumbledore, who > > was working tirelessly against You Know Who, had a number of useful > spies. One of them tipped him off, and he alerted James and Lily at > once." > Lupin would be my guess, even though Black didn't trust him, James and/or Lily may have. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Tue Apr 22 01:01:53 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 21:01:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The timeline on the DVD *confirms* canon. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030422010153.58531.qmail@web20418.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55827 --- Ebony wrote: > > Hermione's birthday *has been* confirmed in the > books already, in > PoA. Dumbledore calls Hermione and Harry "two > thirteen year old > wizards". It strikes me that if you believe this is so, the DVD timeline can't be terribly important. After all, canon has confirmed it, no? You don't really believe that the DVD has settled things. You believe that canon has settled things. > The fandom's most reputable news source, The Leaky > Cauldron, reported > that Warner Home Video confirmed that Rowling *did* > approve the > timeline. For me, that's as good as if she had > written it herself. Speaking from an academic point of view, the provenance is none too great. This is not because the Leaky Cauldron isn't reputable. We all know it is. TLC's source however is not so obviously reputable, imho. Someone at Warner Home Video who ought to know does not equate complete gospel truth. Not that I think it unlikely that JKR *did* approve the timeline. Only that we have hearsay alone to confirm this. If anyone cares to dispute this, I'd ask them first to consider whether they would be allowed to document this as *fact* in an academic paper. > And if you're "not about to take direction from a > DVD", then let's > hope that paper books don't go the way of > eight-tracks, eh? Never until the large percentage of the population (including me) that refuses to read with bookmarks, and instinctively find their place in books by touch, disappears! But if in the future, the book was to come to us way of the DVD, it'd still be a book, no? In which case, discussing the extinction of paper books has really nothing to do with the attending material of the CTTMNBN. > I feel > that this is just as much canon as some of JKR's > more vague > interviews. I wouldn't consider either canon. But let it be noted that we have 100% certainty that the vague interviews were JKR's. In our hypothetical academic paper, the interviews could be footnoted without any trouble. > This issue might be a minor one, but then again, so > are several > others that JKR clarified in GoF, the schoolbooks, > and now. The care > that our author has taken to clarify even this > minute detail shows > the care she puts into everything in her universe. Again, JKR wrote GoF, and she wrote the schoolbooks. We do not have proof that she wrote the timeline. I see a huge difference here. Furthermore, even were the report to be correct, which, to tell the truth, I suspect it is... Jo Serenadust wrote of Ebony's acceptance of the timeline as canon: >I can't agree here, since signing off on a timeline >someone else wrote isn't really in the same category >as developing one yourself, or making public statements >in an interview, vague or otherwise. To which I can only say Amen. Eileen ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From bard7696 at aol.com Tue Apr 22 01:08:24 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 01:08:24 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore had a number of useful spies In-Reply-To: <002101c30865$de649a40$6501a8c0@slytherincess> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55828 Julie: > Funny, but I had the same thing happen recently, reading that exact passage. > The easy answer, of course, I believe is Snape. But there are other Death > Eaters whose identities we don't know yet. I know that JKR has alluded to us > finding out something important about Snape in book 7. I wonder if it's > related? No answers here, just speculation. I'm wondering too! > I write: As much as I dislike easy answers, I do hope the one who tipped off D-Dore about the Potters being in trouble was indeed Snape. First, let me say that I don't dispute that Snape has been TRYING to save Harry all along, just that he has done so, which is where I dispute whether Harry should be thanking Snape. My favorite interpretation of Snape has always been someone who hates his station in life but is bound, either magically or by his own code, to it. James saved him. Perhaps his motives weren't altogether pure, but James saved Snape. I like to think of Snape as someone who would like NOTHING BETTER than to be frolicking with the DEs again, but he is bound to be a good guy. And... he... hates... every...stinking... minute... of ... it. Add in what may have been a crush/unrequited love for Lily, and I think Snape giving up everything he wants to be to help a man he hates and a woman who will never love him -- AND THEN HAVE THEM GET KILLED ANYWAY!! -- has the potential to be one of the more poignant moments in the entire series. It works even without a crush on Lily, too, for people that just find that too icky. So then he has to save this little bastard Harry, only he can't really get him a clean save, at least not enough to satisfy his own code of honor , and it makes him hate Harry all the more, peaking with the end of PoA. Snape thought he could discharge his debt AND get rid of Sirius and Lupin all at once, (thereby avenging James and Lily, because he, like everyone else, thought Sirius had betrayed the Potters) but Harry messed it up again! In GoF, though, I think Snape's own problems, such as the return of Voldermort, started to overshadow his hate for Harry. Simply put, I think Snape is too worried about his own hide to worry much about James' kid, who can obviously take care of himself. This makes me think this is not a magical life debt, but something Snape feels he has to do. Maybe he truly won't "save" Harry. Maybe he'll just find some peace about what happened. So, leave Snape as the one who tipped off D-Dore about the Potters. It's easy, it's obvious, but it's could be really cool, too. Darrin -- Little Harry Bastards would be a GREAT name for a band. From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Tue Apr 22 01:25:12 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 21:25:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIPping Attitudes In-Reply-To: <022f01c307a9$260057d0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: <20030422012512.52472.qmail@web20422.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55829 --- pennylin wrote: > Hi -- > I'm not sure I'm following the transition from > Rowling conceding that the romance angle involves > feelings between all *3* members of the Trio to a > R/H Big Moment. :--) I've said several times that I plain don't see H/Hr in the books. But that's not entirely true. I don't see the prospect of H/Hr in the books, but H/Hr is most definitely *in* the books. Rita Skeeter wrote H/Hr fic, after all! JKR does not skirt the idea of H/Hr, as can quickly be established from reading GoF. But what is the role of H/Hr in the series? I'll start with Hermione. I have no doubt that Hermione has considered H/Hr. And R/Hr. And Viktor/Hermione etc. etc. If Hermione is like any normal girl, and I see no evidence to the contrary, she has spared some thought to the guys she meets as potential romantic partners. I know I always have. Even in the most platonic of platonic relationships, I've done this. Not for long, not seriously, but Hermione should know that the potential for R/Hr and H/Hr do exist. To cast her as completely unaware of this seems to me naive. I have only personal experience to guide me further in suggesting that consideration of H/Hr and R/Hr could very likely go back to the first meeting on the train. However, that's not necessary to subscribe to. The issue is that at the beginning of GoF Hermione is almost certain to have thought, however briefly, about the potential for H/Hr and R/Hr. Secondly, I would not be surprised if Hermione had, at points, certain feelings towards the two of them. Her praise of Harry in PS/SS is a little breathless, to say the least. Hermione is a normal girl who crushes normally. Being such, of course, the consuming interest is not Harry or Ron. Canonically, she's infatuated with Gilderoy Lockhart, and I think the text points to a more mature crush on Lupin. Then, we have GoF, where suddenly it *is* Harry and Ron who are being presented as potential candidates for Hermione's interest. GoF is where I saw Hermione's very slight girlish infatuation with the both of them being transformed by the author into the beginnings of a romance with Ron Weasley. Certain feelings between the three of them have indeed come into play. And they resolve, in my reading, as R/Hr. Eileen PS. > If true, then I'd say Rowling as > the author might be making a bigger statement since > Harry's first memory of female affection comes from > Hermione's giving him a hug. LOONish quibble here. Wouldn't Harry's first memory of real female affection be Molly giving him a hug? ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com Tue Apr 22 01:40:47 2003 From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 18:40:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What is Canon? In-Reply-To: <050601c3081b$647f2820$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> Message-ID: <20030422014047.96103.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55830 Katy Cartee: > Again i must ask, WHY NOT? Nobody has > given me a good reason thus far as > to WHY we should refute facts retrieved > from objects other than the books > if they do not contradict what is in > the books! Ask and you shall receive... Speaking for myself, it's because it is a lot easier to avoid 'contamination' than trying to get rid of incorrect notions once it's been woven into the fabric that is canon understanding. > Here's one good reason why we SHOULD > accept them as fact (or "canon"): so > far, we've been told that JKR is > only writing 7 Harry Potter books. > SEVEN. #5 is about to come out and > then only 2 more to go. What then? > What else will we have to turn to > to satiate our thirst for > Potter-knowledge? I'll tell you - > OTHER licensed sources. I don't know > about you, but it would thrill me to > learn more facts after the series is > complete. Ah but the series is NOT complete yet. Info gleaned from merchandising may very well be contradicted by future canon. The very fact that such info DO fill in the blanks left by current canon is why they are attractive...but ...it's also a weakness: such blanks may be filled by canon later. I envy you if you can keep accurate track of where you get all the various bits of data and therefore can remember when conflicts arise, which bit of info is from canon and which from the Harry Potter Coat Stand (or whatever). Besides, canon is the common ground for all of the 6000+ members here. Canon is something we all agree on as far as authenticity/importance and it's something we all have equal access to. Petra a n :) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Tue Apr 22 01:49:30 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 21:49:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What is Canon? In-Reply-To: <20030422014047.96103.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030422014930.87437.qmail@web20405.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55831 Katy, Forgive me for giving my answer in the form of replacing a few words in your original question. I think you'll best see what I mean that way. FICTIONAL EXAMPLE: > Again i must ask, WHY NOT? Nobody has > given me a good reason thus far as > to WHY we should refute facts retrieved > from objects other than Melville's "Moby Dick" > if they do not contradict what is in > Moby Dick! AND > Here's one good reason why we SHOULD > accept as fact (or "canon"): Moby Dick, > however long, only has a certain number of pages. > You read it and what then? > What else will we have to turn to > to satiate our thirst for > Ahab-knowledge? I'll tell you - > OTHER licensed sources. I don't know > about you, but it would thrill me to > learn more facts now that Melville's > book is complete. Eileen, who loves Moby Dick and Harry Potter as literature ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From flamingstarchows at att.net Tue Apr 22 01:56:04 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (FlamingStar Chows) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 20:56:04 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore had a number of useful spies References: Message-ID: <003801c30872$56596920$8d09570c@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 55832 From: galadriel Fudge states, "Dumbledore, who was working tirelessly against You Know Who, had a number of useful spies. One of them tipped him off, and he alerted James and Lily at once." I wonder who that one spy was, and if this has any significance to the outcome of the entire story. Does anyone have any ideas? ----Me---- I've had a nagging feeling that it is Snape. Perhaps it is his life-debt to James that caused him to come back and let Dumbledore know what is going on. ~Cathy~ From selah_1977 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 22 02:20:51 2003 From: selah_1977 at yahoo.com (Ebony) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 02:20:51 -0000 Subject: The timeline on the DVD *confirms* canon. In-Reply-To: <20030422010153.58531.qmail@web20418.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55833 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Eileen wrote: > --- Ebony wrote: > > > Hermione's birthday *has been* confirmed in the > > books already, in > > PoA. Dumbledore calls Hermione and Harry "two > > thirteen year old > > wizards". > > It strikes me that if you believe this is so, the DVD > timeline can't be terribly important. After all, canon > has confirmed it, no? You don't really believe that > the DVD has settled things. You believe that canon has > settled things. Eileen, the definition of "confirm" is, according to Merriam-Webster: 1 : to give approval to : RATIFY 2 : to make firm or firmer : STRENGTHEN 3 : to administer the rite of confirmation to 4 : to give new assurance of the validity of : remove doubt about by authoritative act or indisputable fact The reason why the DVD timeline confirmation is important is because the PoA quote has been largely written off by British fandomers who were educated under a system with a cutoff of September 1 as a Flint. Canon didn't *confirm* that Hermione is six weeks younger than Harry instead of ten months. It introduced it as a fact. The timeline *confirms* it. I find it very surprising that your opinions on this issue are so strong, since in your first post, you stated that the 1979/1980 dating wasn't a very big deal to you. Judging from your replies here, it certainly doesn't seem as if that is that case. And BTW, I am an academic. But then again, since JKR's already confirmed this date in canon, if I ever wrote an *academic* paper on Hermione's birth date (as if!), I've already got the primary source quote. > Jo Serenadust wrote of Ebony's acceptance of > the timeline as canon: > >I can't agree here, since signing off on a timeline > >someone else wrote isn't really in the same category > >as developing one yourself, or making public > statements > >in an interview, vague or otherwise. > > To which I can only say Amen. Interesting. So the PoA quote remains a Flint for both of you, then? Or is the issue not the Flintiness of said quote, but because I feel the DVD timeline confirms canon? Never mind; I think I've got my answer. Let's just agree to disagree. --Ebony, still content about being proven right, still shaking her head and wondering how seismic June 21 will prove to be in *all* aspects of canon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ My summer: http://www.hp2003.org My zone: http://www.fictionalley.org My ship: http://www.pumpkinpie.org My fics: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From selah_1977 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 22 02:26:18 2003 From: selah_1977 at yahoo.com (Ebony) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 02:26:18 -0000 Subject: The timeline on the DVD *confirms* canon. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55834 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ebony" wrote: > The reason why the DVD timeline confirmation is important is because > the PoA quote has been largely written off by British fandomers who > were educated under a system with a cutoff of September 1 as a > Flint. Eep... make that: "The reason why the DVD timeline confirmation is important is becaue the PoA quote has largely been written off by British fandomers and others who were educated under a system with a cutoff date of September 1 and thus see any other date as a Flint." So little time. So many things to reply to. :) --Ebony, avoiding the SHIPping threads like the plague these days... and who sympathizes with Dumbledore in PoA, "What we need is more *time*." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ My summer: http://www.hp2003.org My zone: http://www.fictionalley.org My ship: http://www.pumpkinpie.org My fics: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From susannahlm at yahoo.com Tue Apr 22 02:49:34 2003 From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (derannimer) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 02:49:34 -0000 Subject: First Hug? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55835 Eileen (quoting Penny) wrote: >> If true, then I'd say Rowling as >> the author might be making a bigger statement since >> Harry's first memory of female affection comes from >> Hermione's giving him a hug. >LOONish quibble here. Wouldn't Harry's first memory of >real female affection be Molly giving him a hug? Nah. I think Penny probably means the hug at the end of PS/SS. Um. . . Oh. I guess in a way I just did. Derannimer, who doesn't think that this is anything but a one-liner From selah_1977 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 22 02:50:34 2003 From: selah_1977 at yahoo.com (Ebony) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 02:50:34 -0000 Subject: Truth, SHIPs, and Rita Skeeter (was Re: SHIPping Attitudes) In-Reply-To: <20030422012512.52472.qmail@web20422.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55836 You know, I said I wasn't going to look at this thread, but I did... --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Eileen wrote: > I've said several times that I plain don't see H/Hr in > the books. But that's not entirely true. I don't see > the prospect of H/Hr in the books, but H/Hr is most > definitely *in* the books. Rita Skeeter wrote H/Hr > fic, after all! No, there is a very distinct difference between fiction and yellow journalism. Good fiction IMO is an imitation of life. Yellow journalism is the truth, poisoned. Rita Skeeter is the latter, and to imply that her articles are anything like H/H fic is pretty laughable. Another thing that I find interesting is that readers of the series tend to have completely opposite reactions to certain romantic pairings than do the characters within the books. I plan to write a post about this one of these days (*pencils this in on list of Things To Do*)... the more and more I thought about it, the more interesting this seemed to me. > JKR does not skirt the idea of H/Hr, as can quickly be > established from reading GoF. But what is the role of > H/Hr in the series? > You've done a fair job of looking at H/H from Hermione's PoV, and you've raised an interesting question. Has Hermione weighed both of her best friends in the balance and found one or both lacking? (That sounds really calculating and un-Hermione-like, doesn't it?) Perhaps. However, I find it rather interesting from a narrative standpoint that several characters outside the Trio's inner circle believed in the possibility of H/H (Colin, Mrs Weasley, Viktor Krum, etc.), and that Harry and Hermione are doing absolutely nothing to refute the fact that they are a couple, other than Harry telling Krum and Mrs Weasley that they are not. The truth is one thing. What the wizarding world believes is another, as far as the narrative is concerned. JKR has played with this idea before, in the Sirius Black plot that began in PoA and is still continuing... Harry and a few chosen others know the truth about Sirius, but the rest of the wizarding world believes that he is not. Yet even if the truth makes free, the lie that Peter began might prove deadly for Sirius in future books... if he appears in public before he is cleared. I used to believe, like many R/H shippers did, that the Rita Skeeter articles served no other purpose besides to prove that H/H would not happen, or that it was a rather blatant red herring. But now as OotP looms near, one must wonder if those articles did not have another purpose as far as the narrative is concerned. Not only has it been in wizarding Britain's media *twice* that Hermione is Harry's girlfriend (which as of GoF she is not), but that first article publicized her Muggle-born status (which she is). And Voldemort is back, and has the advantage of stealth on his side. No wonder JKR asked in an interview why no one ever worries about Hermione dying. Sure, Hermione is the only developed younger female character, but that doesn't make her immune. Death is only a bit of what might happen. So therefore, it's a bit misleading to deem the Skeeter articles H/H fiction. In this case, the "fiction" could have really negative consequences... but then again, I tend to see a bit more darkness on the horizon in canon, and I don't think that SHIPping is going to be divorced enough from the rest of the plot to rest easily with OBHWF. --Ebony, jumping in anyway From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Tue Apr 22 03:12:08 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 23:12:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The timeline on the DVD *confirms* canon. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030422031208.18014.qmail@web20419.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55837 --- Ebony wrote: > Eileen, the definition of "confirm" is, according to > Merriam-Webster: > 1 : to give approval to : RATIFY > 2 : to make firm or firmer : STRENGTHEN > 3 : to administer the rite of confirmation to > 4 : to give new assurance of the validity of : > remove doubt about by > authoritative act or indisputable fact .......... > Canon didn't *confirm* that Hermione is six weeks > younger than Harry > instead of ten months. It introduced it as a fact. > The timeline > *confirms* it. But later you write >"But then again, since JKR's > already confirmed this date in canon, which suggests that you're using "confirms" in the exact same sense as I am, in which we speak of canon confirming our arguments. Even though, of course, technically speaking, canon does not give approval to our arguments. > I find it very surprising that your opinions on this > issue are so > strong, since in your first post, you stated that > the 1979/1980 > dating wasn't a very big deal to you. Judging from > your replies > here, it certainly doesn't seem as if that is that > case. Given that at no time have I argued as to what Hermione's age actually is, as far as I can recall, I have no idea what you're referring to. I *don't* care about the result. I *do* care about the process. > And BTW, I am an academic. Yes, I know. That's why I brought up the example. :-) > But then again, since > JKR's already > confirmed this date in canon, if I ever wrote an > *academic* paper on > Hermione's birth date (as if!), I've already got the > primary source > quote. And I think that's as it should be. > Interesting. So the PoA quote remains a Flint for > both of you, > then? Or is the issue not the Flintiness of said > quote, but because > I feel the DVD timeline confirms canon? No, I don't think the PoA quote is a Flint. I'm quite willing to believe Hermione is a thirteen year old in PoA. I'm worried about the precedent, though, of taking reportedly approved items as canon. I can understand you being pleased by the indication of authorial approval, but you have to remember that I originally took issue with the suggestion that this *must* settle the age debate once and for all. Eileen ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From jmmears at comcast.net Tue Apr 22 03:42:09 2003 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 03:42:09 -0000 Subject: The timeline on the DVD *confirms* canon. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55838 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ebony" wrote: > The reason why the DVD timeline confirmation is important is because > the PoA quote has been largely written off by British fandomers who > were educated under a system with a cutoff of September 1 as a > Flint. I'm not British (although my children were in the British school system for a short time several years ago) but I've always defered to the views of the British members of the fandom on this point. I didn't see the PoA quote as a Flint so much as an imprecise statement by Dumbledore, which is of the type I hear teachers use all the time (ie, speaking of "a class of hyperactive seven year olds" when in fact 3 of them are really eight). It was never serious enough for me to consider an actual Flint. > > > Jo Serenadust wrote of Ebony's acceptance of > > the timeline as canon: > > >I can't agree here, since signing off on a timeline > > >someone else wrote isn't really in the same category > > >as developing one yourself, or making public > > statements > > >in an interview, vague or otherwise. Eileen replied: > > To which I can only say Amen. Ebony continued: > Interesting. So the PoA quote remains a Flint for both of you, > then? Or is the issue not the Flintiness of said quote, but because > I feel the DVD timeline confirms canon? I can't speak for Eileen on this, but what I meant was that the DVD timeline has introduced a potential Flint. If the birthdate had been 1979, then Hermione "fits" into the story as a product of the normal British educational system with its Sept 1 cutoff. Now that it lists the 1980 birth date, it just doesn't fit for me unless we get further information. If JKR gives us some backstory for why Hermione is moved ahead in either a direct interview, or as part of a future book, then I'll be perfectly satisfied. Until then, it's still questionable for me based on JKR's past inconsistencies with dates and numbers. Ebony wrote: > Never mind; I think I've got my answer. > Sorry, I don't follow you. What answer? > Let's just agree to disagree. OK with me. I still don't see Hermione's age having any real plot importance, unless it's just not been revealed yet. I really didn't care until this DVD timeline issue came up, and I still don't get why it is so very important to you that she be younger by a matter of months rather than older. Did I miss a post explaining that? If so, please direct me to it because I have a feeling that I'm missing *something*. Jo Serenadust, who doesn't trust the films as canon, let alone the statements of some WB flack > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From jmholmes at breckcomm.com Tue Apr 22 04:44:51 2003 From: jmholmes at breckcomm.com (Julie Holmes) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 22:44:51 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Truth, SHIPs, and Rita Skeeter (was Re: SHIPping Attitudes) References: Message-ID: <000701c30889$e9499040$6501a8c0@slytherincess> No: HPFGUIDX 55839 <----- Original Message ----- From: Ebony> Sing it sister! I'm the same way about shippy threads. Usually. I noticed this too, actually. It is one of the reasons I believe H/Hr to be plausible. I don't think so. Not really. I think if any woman would be strong enough to actually sit down and analyze the pros and cons of becoming involved with a certain kind of man, and choosing-- actually CHOOSING -- a partner based on a collective of things, it would be someone like Hermione. She's extremely practical. And really, there is nothing particularly romantic about pairing up with someone you are extremely incompatible with, beyond a physical attraction. I know the "opposites attract" theme is extremely popular in fanfic, especially HP fanfic (think D/Hr, for instance), but in real life being with someone you are completely incompatible with is anything buy romantic or fun. IMO, Ron and Hermione are not particularly compatible. I can totally see Hermione have good long think, and choosing Harry over Ron for practical reasons, if she had a basic attraction to both boys. Hermione is practical to the extreme. Practical people often analyse and plan to the extreme, as well. I noticed this too, and found it intriguing. I'm not convinced that the H/Hr, Rita Skeeter scenarios are a red herring either. ~Julie -grateful for her OTP-Ship of Draco/Pansy ;) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com Tue Apr 22 05:09:20 2003 From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 22:09:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SHIPping Attitudes In-Reply-To: <031b01c3083b$3af62b50$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: <20030422050920.76794.qmail@web21110.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55840 Yours truly: > "Conceding?" Interesting diction, > Penny. Still sure you're > not on a battleSHIP? Penny: > Nah, it's a cruiseliner, a party boat. > You're welcome aboard anytime. :--) Thanks for the invite but I'm not boarding any ship before JKR does...and as of now, she hasn't ticketed any one of her many stateroom reservations... despite rumors (that just won't die peaceful deaths) to the contrary. Besides, I seem to have ran out of my trusty seasickness pills. And what the heck is a party boat doing cruising for "trumps" anyway? Yours truly: > The statement "they are platonic friends" > proves nothing and disproves nothing. > Convenient, eh? Penny: > Well, that's exactly *my* point, Petra. > It's the R/H crowd who are and have > been so insistent that Rowling signed a > death knell to H/H *forevermore* with > the "they are platonic friends" quote. > > My view is that this statement was > limited in scope, and, as you say, > proves nothing and disproves nothing. So...do you see that "certain feelings between the three of them" also proves nothing and disproves nothing? No death sentence being signed here? No death knell being tolled? No swan song being sung? Penny: > I also have the view that the > recent DVD interview discussed above > completely trumps the "platonic > friends" quote in any case. If they > were and are forevermore platonic > friends, then there is no *3* > involved at all. Shamelessly quoting myself in reply to the above: > No acts of trumping here...no acts > of concession either. Theoretically, if Ron has those "mature" feelings for both Harry and Hermione, then both (1) H/Hr are platonic friends and (2) there are "certain feelings between the three of them" are technically truthful statements. Yours truly: > Heck, you can't even make a strong > case for considering more than the > minimum of one person actively having > feelings from this quote alone. Penny: > As Stickbook pointed out, there must > indeed be more than one person > actively having "certain feelings" > for JKR's statement to make sense. I beg to differ: There must be AT LEAST 1 person actively having "certain feelings" for JKR's statement to be TRUTHFUL. Not accurate...not logical...but just plain truthful while being noncommittal. Entirely possible that one of the Trio is 'feeling' while the other two are being 'felt' so to speak. What JKR has said is too vague to rule out any possibilities. Look, "certain feelings between the three of them" can mean anything between one extreme of Six Arrows - H -> Hr H -> R Hr -> H Hr -> R R -> H R -> Hr (that's in alphabetical order, BTW) and the other extreme of Only Two Arrows - FROM one of the Trio out TO each of the other two. Penny, elsewhere: > There's no Ginny or Cho involved in > this equation. She's talking about > the Trio quite clearly. Tut-tut. Dont stop at just two! How can you pass up this golden opportunity to shoot down Harry/Hedwig ...or...Harry/Draco...or what have you?! "Certain feelings between the three of them" does not exclude arrows going outside the Trio or coming into the Trio. It also doesn't exclude the possibility that these teenagers can be attracted to more than one person at the same time. Maddeningly unspecific, eh? How can a statement of so many possible interpretations 'trump' ANY assertion? Penny: > I don't see how you can possibly argue > that she would say *three* but only > mean *one.* Because... (1) ...its possible. One of the Trio could be the origin point of such feelings going out to the other two. Though the other two may not issue the feelings, they are the recipients and thus this scenario involves a trio as opposed to a single or a double. ...and... (2) ...its probable. See, not only is it possible to argue that she could say *three* but only mean *one* (or two or three) actively emoting person(s), I have already done so. Several times, mind you (and I'm plum out of metaphors!!!): Because to be specific now is to spoil the future books. JKR cannot possibly wish to spoil Books 5-6-7. Therefore shes going to be truthful without actually trump any ships. Desire not clarity, m'dear, for such specificity from JKR at this point could deflate this fandom in significant ways. Petra a n :) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From fandulin at hotmail.com Tue Apr 22 03:21:51 2003 From: fandulin at hotmail.com (fandulin) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 03:21:51 -0000 Subject: Disease and Sickness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55841 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "siriuskase" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rebecca Stephens > wrote: > > IIRC, there was mention of a cold or something of the > > sort in COS. Isn't that why people were taking Pepper > > Up potion? > > In PoA, Trelawney predicted that there would a flu outbreak after > Christmas, does that count? > > sirius kase > > > > > > Rebecca >> Yes, that definately counts. You folks have sharper eyes then I do. Now that you bring them up, I remember the references clearly. I think I need a pensieve to store details in. I still wonder however about more serious muggle diseases though. Would a wizard be able to shrug off SARS for instance? As for my earlier post, regarding diseases and altruistic wizards helping out with the worlds problems.... manawydan wrote: >It's quite possible. Though given the existence of St Mungo's, it's >certain >that magic can't cure everything, at least yet - doubtless the >hospital has >a research programme, given that the various branches of magic do >seem to >develop over the years. > Perhaps in a way, the healers would be a bigger threat to the WW if their > existence was discovered. Because what began as a favour would then be > demanded as routine, and refusal would threaten to end in a pogrom against > wizardry, the same threat that caused the WW to go underground in the first > place. > > And don't forget that if the muggle world found out about wizardly powers, > they might well start demanding not just intervention for healing and peace, > but on the opposite side. Wizards of mass destruction, anyone? me: I responded thusly (while ducking, because i'm new here, and am not sure how folks feel about re-posts) All very good points. It seems cold-hearted, but then again, wizards don't ask muggledom for help with problems particular to them, i.e. Voldemort. I was just thinking that young wizards, especially those from muggle backgrounds would sometimes see the chaos and sadness of the muggle world and wonder if they should be doing something. I mean face it, outside of the threat of dark wizards, the WW is a very comfortable and safe place to be (with the exception of dangerous activities they gleefully pursue, such as quidditch). Perhaps they would begin to wonder where their loyalties should primarily lie, with the WW or the human race. Then again, once they enter the WW, wizards and witches probably don't have much contact with the muggles, and may simply forget or not realize the problems and struggles that most of the world has to put up with. I do agree that if their interference was discovered, it would be an extremely slippery slope from then on. Any other thoughts? Fandulin From SusanXG at hotmail.com Tue Apr 22 03:34:45 2003 From: SusanXG at hotmail.com (Susan XG) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 22:34:45 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and friendship outside the trio Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55842 Bill said: "I believe that Ron and Hermione will get together, probably in OotP, leaving Harry out in the cold. On top of his other concerns, that's gotta hurt. This may be one more reason for Harry to look for somebody outside the Trio for friendship." Personally, I think Harry is going to turn to Draco Malfoy (not in THAT way! *g*). Those two have more in common than they think. I believe that Draco can and will be redeemed. He's going to be the "Spike" of the series. I don't think he really, truly knows how evil his father is. Despite the fact that Draco can be a little brat, he's never done anything TRULY evil. He's called Hermione a "mudblood" and bragged about the Chamber of Secrets, but he's never really HURT someone. Up until this point, Draco has one interpretation of his father, but something is going to happen (possibly in OotP), that is going to change his impression of Lucius forever. Draco has been "conditioned" by his father to be the way he is (even going as far as wanting to send him to Durmstrang. His mother didn't want that...), but when the time comes I don't think he'll choose to align with Voldemort. Draco is too much of a leader. He couldn't be a Death Eater. They are pure followers. That may be one of the reasons Snape watches him so closely. He doesn't want Malfoy to become what he was. Harry and Draco will probably never really be "friend friends" and will continue to butt heads, but I think they will form a mutual respect for each other. In war, you need all the help you can get, personal vendettas aside. Susan :o) prophecygirl.com _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From LeiaOS at aol.com Tue Apr 22 04:37:02 2003 From: LeiaOS at aol.com (LeiaOS at aol.com) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 00:37:02 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore had a number of useful spies Message-ID: <1a5.12bfea11.2bd620ee@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55843 Darrin: > > Add in what may have been a crush/unrequited love for Lily, and I think > Snape giving up everything he wants to be to help a man he hates and a > woman who will never love him -- AND THEN HAVE THEM GET KILLED > ANYWAY!! -- has the potential to be one of the more poignant moments in the > > entire series. > > <> > > In GoF, though, I think Snape's own problems, such as the return of > Voldermort, started to overshadow his hate for Harry. Simply put, I think > Snape is too worried about his own hide to worry much about James' kid, who > > can obviously take care of himself. > > I'm new here and since Snape is one of my favourite characters, I had to go ahead and jump in on this. Personally, I've always thought it was probably Snape that tipped Dumbledore on the danger the Potters were in. I like the idea for several reasons and I think it works well as a story. As Darrin said here, the potential for one of the most poignant moments in the series. Snape and Harry have this connection that Snape despises and Harry probably doesn't fully understand. As harsh as he is on Harry, Snape continues to try to keep Harry safe (granted, he doesn't always succeed and perhaps at times has even endangered him, but he does try) and my guess is, that there's probably more to that than just his 'life-debt' to James. It would make perfect sense for Snape to be the person who had tried to save the Potter's and when it doesn't work out, that failure would add to the sense of duty he feels for Harry. After all, he wasn't able to keep his parents from being murdered. Reading the books we really get only glimpses of Snape from Harry's point of view so the picture we get isn't the complete picture. I believe Snape is duty bound, and I feel it's that sense of duty that makes him so absolutely trustworthy. I'm very curious to see what happens in the next book because Snape's laid his cards out on the table. It will be interesting to see how, if at all, that effects their relationship. Harry knows what he was, but I'd say he in no way knows the full picture. Whether he finds that out now, or whether he finds it out later on, I'd wager there's still some Snape surprises to be had. I've really enjoyed the discussion on this list so far and I'm looking forward to hearing more! ~Sabrina~ 'I say to you all, once again- in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open.' ~Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From astratrf at aol.com Tue Apr 22 05:17:01 2003 From: astratrf at aol.com (astratrf) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 05:17:01 -0000 Subject: Honorifics Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55844 (Nervously leaving lurkdom for the second time--please be gentle!) Fox said: Yes, and the previous Care of Magical Creatures teacher was Professor Kettleburn, so it's not a matter of the material. At the same time, though, Lockhart doesn't have a shred of academic credentials that we know of (when would he have accumulated them?), and the odds are neither does Lupin or Moody, and yet all three are called Professor. Now me: Possibly the wizard world has the same sexism that we find in the real world--witness the fact that we have numerous honorifics for women depending on their marital status, or their unwillingness to divulge it! Men, however, are Mr. after a certain age, period. Is there any male teacher besides Hagrid who is not called Professor? I would assume that he has been called Hagrid for so long that changing it now would be awkward. Back to lurkdom, till the next time. -Astra From prittylina at yahoo.com Tue Apr 22 01:43:44 2003 From: prittylina at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Lina?=) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 02:43:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: honorifics In-Reply-To: <1050972607.3370.1114.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030422014344.5912.qmail@web14008.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55845 Fox wrote: > From: "Steve" > >The only situation I can think of, would be a very formal and very rich > >household in which the butler might say something like "Madam Smith will > >see you now". > > I find that highly unlikely. The handful of families I've known who had > that kind of money (and houses where the doorbell only rang in the pantry, > that kind of thing) have been headed by a Mr. and Mrs., just like everybody > else. I've heard it, actually, but only in areas of strong French influence. My grandmother was known as "Madame Zeringue" for most of her life, save the time that she taught (upon which she became Miss Zeringue). > >>But the female students in the wizarding world are never called "Miss > >>Hermione" and "Miss Penelope". > > > >The key is 'in general usage'. In real life, it is common for the term > >"Miss" to be used this way. It is most common, when a person is very > >familiar with the young girl being addressed, but still wants to add a > >friendly sense of formality. In practical use, this is or at least, was > >very common in the southern US. It would also be common among servants of > >the friendly but formal rich. The maid, or butler might refer to the > >youngest daughter of the house as Miss Sally. > > It's not precisely common here any longer, but it's certainly more common > than it is elsewhere. Calling an elementary school teacher (or similar > prominent adult in a small child's life) Miss Hermione is less formal than > calling her Miss Granger. Indeed, though I was always taught to refer to any female older than me as "Miss " (and similarly "Mr." with any male). I also use it in jest (? in part, though I also do this when I'm taking them seriously) with my younger sibling/cousins/acquaintanes (e.g. "Miss Brigette," "Mr. Jean"), as is norm where I'm from. Several of my teachers in elementary/high school would refer to us as such also (that being with our last name, though our first names would be used in conjunction were there repeats). > >I still say the distinction is age and marital status. You know you are old > >when waiters and clerks start referring to you as Madam instead of Miss. > > In my experience, waiters and clerks start calling female customers "ma'am" > (never "madam") instead of "miss" when they're old enough to conduct their > business on their own, independent of their mothers. I've been "ma'am" > since I was about fourteen -- hardly old. :-) Really? I happen to do the opposite -- I refer to all females "miss" unless they look, say, over 30. > >- Marital Status - I see this being used as a term of respect for old > >spinsters. Perhaps older unmarried women gain the title as they are the > >default matriarch of their household. > > I'm having a hard time reconciling that (to say nothing of "spinster" -- > god, does anybody use that word any more? [g]) Why, certainly -- there were two uses of it in this here post! =) > >As applied to the wizard world and Hogwarts, I think Madam Pince, Madam > >Hooch, and Madam Pomfrey are all older women who have no academic > >credentials, and who do not teach acedemic subjects, who are either > >unmarried and therefore need a title more dignified and respectful than > >Miss > > Whoa, hold on. Since when is "Miss" (capital letter, with a surname) > undignified? I imagine Miss Manners, Miss Prism, and Miss Jean Brodie (the > antecedent of our dear Professor McGonagall [g]) would have a couple of > things to say about that. Miss LastName is a perfectly respectable, correct > way to address an unmarried adult woman. Simply because anything French sounds pretentious and therefore more dignified? ;D > Steve (bboy_mn) said: > > >My personal opinion is that Professor is not just a courtesy title for a > >teacher, but an acedemic credential equivalent to a Masters Degree. This > >explains why Hagrid isn't a professor even thought he is a teacher. Care of > >Magical Creatures is just as acedemic as Prof. Sprout's herbology class, > >but Prof. Sprout has the acedemic credentials. > > Yes, and the previous Care of Magical Creatures teacher was Professor > Kettleburn, so it's not a matter of the material. At the same time, though, > Lockhart doesn't have a shred of academic credentials that we know of (when > would he have accumulated them?), and the odds are neither does Lupin or > Moody, and yet all three are called Professor. As term of respect, surely. Hagrid had been at the school long before he became an actual teacher and, though he does hold the role that Lockhart, Lupin, and Moody hold (assuming, of course, that neither of the three have any sort of academic credentials), he has been there long enough that people have been referring to him without the title "Professor", and they will continue to do such out of habit. I'm certain that there are some first years who'd enter and call him "Professor", only to either be corrected or else later weaned off of it after hearing him being referred to as something else by the upperclassmen. Lina, who didn't learn that men weren't addressed with "Compair" until late in elementary school... __________________________________________________ Yahoo! Plus For a better Internet experience http://www.yahoo.co.uk/btoffer From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Apr 22 07:39:31 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 07:39:31 -0000 Subject: honorifics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55847 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "The Fox" wrote: > > Steve (bboy_mn) said: > > >My personal opinion is that Professor is not just a courtesy title > > for a teacher, but an acedemic credential equivalent to a Masters > > Degree. This explains why Hagrid isn't a professor even thought > > he is a teacher. ... > Fox: > > Yes, and the previous Care of Magical Creatures teacher was > Professor Kettleburn, so it's not a matter of the material. At the > same time, though, Lockhart doesn't have a shred of academic > credentials that we know of ..., and the odds are neither does Lupin > or Moody, and yet all three are called Professor. > > Fox bboy_mn: Well, you've got me there. I do believe that the kids would address most teachers as Professor as a default unless the teachers are introduced by some other title. So Lockhart may have been addressed as Professor, not as a title, but as a default form of courtesy. On the other hand, Lockhart could have some academic credentials; knowing him, they would probably be honorary. We can only speculate. While we are speculating, I think it is likely that Lupin does have acedemic credentials. His battered old suitcase said, "Professor R.J.Lupin" or something close to that. In any event, the word 'professor' was printed on the case and appeared to have been there for a long time. I speculate that since Lupin was not allowed to interact very much with the normal wizard world, he spend a lot of time alone studying. I always pictured his mother encouraging him to make something out of himself and to use his free time to achieve something. So he studied hard, submitted papers and research for review, and was eventually awarded a Professoriate degree. For full details, you need to go back to the many discussions of education in the wizard world where I have rambled on at great length about my theory of after-Hogwarts education. Moody is another matter. I can imagine scenarios in which Moody as a top Auror was constantly keeping up on the latest advances in the magic world, and he would have also gain a great deal of in-the-field experience that could have been transferred to academic credentials. Of course, without JKR specifically saying it, all we can do is speculate about the possible ways in which the wizard world works. Just a thought. bboy_mn From julia at thequiltbug.com Tue Apr 22 11:13:51 2003 From: julia at thequiltbug.com (Calliope) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 04:13:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Truth, SHIPs, and Rita Skeeter (OOP mention) Message-ID: <20030422041351.13785.h009.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net> No: HPFGUIDX 55848 **I'm mentioning an OOP spoiler at the end - if you don't want to know, avert your gaze...** "Ebony" wrote: > But now as OotP looms near, one must wonder if those articles did > not have another purpose as far as the narrative is concerned. Not > only has it been in wizarding Britain's media *twice* that Hermione > is Harry's girlfriend (which as of GoF she is not), but that first > article publicized her Muggle-born status (which she is). > > And Voldemort is back, and has the advantage of stealth on his side. > > No wonder JKR asked in an interview why no one ever worries about > Hermione dying. Sure, Hermione is the only developed younger female > character, but that doesn't make her immune. Death is only a bit of > what might happen. > > So therefore, it's a bit misleading to deem the Skeeter articles H/H > fiction. In this case, the "fiction" could have really negative > consequences... but then again, I tend to see a bit more darkness on > the horizon in canon, and I don't think that SHIPping is going to be > divorced enough from the rest of the plot to rest easily with OBHWF. Wow, Ebony, you've just put a scary thought into my head that I've never considered before. I'm beginning to get very worried for Hermione now. And I'm thinking of that "unbearable sacrifice" quote from the Scholastic summary and hoping it has nothing whatsoever to do with Hermione (or any of the Trio, but I'm particularly worried about Hermione at the moment). There's no telling what Voldemort might decide to do to Hermione to get back at Harry if he believes she is Harry's girlfriend. --Calliope http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Calliopes_fics/ http://www.thedarkarts.org/authorLinks/Calliope/ http://www.livejournal.com/users/calliope14/ From pennylin at swbell.net Tue Apr 22 13:06:01 2003 From: pennylin at swbell.net (pennylin) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 08:06:01 -0500 Subject: The timeline on the DVD *confirms* canon; SHIPping Attitudes References: <20030422010153.58531.qmail@web20418.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006401c308cf$ed524470$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 55849 Hi -- <<<<<<I can't agree here, since signing off on a timeline >someone else wrote isn't really in the same category >as developing one yourself, or making public statements >in an interview, vague or otherwise. Eileen said: <<<>>>>>>>> While I do agree with Eileen's point that unless WB releases an official statement confirming JKR's involvement with the timeline (or if JKR were to confirm this in an interview or chat) the proof of Rowling's involvement is a bit suspect, I should say that the Leaky Cauldron is not just reporting that Rowling *approved* the timeline; they are reporting that she *made notes on* and otherwise *changed* the timeline. If you've been following Lexicon Steve's discussions lately, then you know that he strongly suspects that someone from WB lifted his timeline out of the Lexicon and that someone (presumably Rowling) altered the timeline to add in a few things, such as Hermione's birthdate/age. This *suggests* (though doesn't prove) the sort of direct author involvement that would in fact confirm Hermione's age as canon (though I agree that it's always wise to distrust or view with suspicion news reports). In historical research and genealogy and certainly academia in general, they are *not* primary sources. Jo Serenadust then wondered: <<<>>>>>>>> Well, I think it may be somehow important to some shippers for reasons that escape this particular shipper. I know Angua has been quite vocal in her belief that Hermione was *older* by 10 months. I can't speak to why that would be important to the shipping positions as it's not to mine, but....... I do think that Hermione's age gives us some clues as to how the Magical Quill operates, which is why I've always found the topic of interest. Of course, I thought that it operated on a calendar year, and Barb quite rightly pointed out that this can't work with Cedric. Which takes us back to the Magical Quill operating on: the fall equinox, some other autumnal date or that Hermione was just a quirk in the system. So, unfortunately, we're still not completely happy with the new "canon" on that particular score (to the extent you consider the DVD timeline to be "canon" that is). Shifting to SHIPping: I said: > If true, then I'd say Rowling as > the author might be making a bigger statement since > Harry's first memory of female affection comes from > Hermione's giving him a hug. Eileen: <<<>>>>>>> Nope, hon. LOON'ing right back at ya: Derannimer is correct. I was referring to Hermione's hug from the end of PS/SS. :--) Petra challenged: <<<<<>>>>>>>> Er........*YES*! I thought I have been abundantly clear, but apparently not. I don't quite understand the animosity in tone (sarcasm) of your recent posts, Petra, but let me try to explain my position a bit more clearly. We can't know for *certain* what exactly Rowling was referring to with her statement that "certain feelings between the *3* of them are foreshadowed." True enough. In theory, I suppose it's possible that she was trying to be fiendishly clever and vague on this score, though watching the interview doesn't lead me to think that she was choosing her words all that carefully or that her answer was rehearsed in any way. But, leaving that aside, all I think it does is give one definite grounds to suspect that the "they are platonic friends" quote may not be as all-encompassing as some shippers have argued for the last couple of years. My *personal* view is that this DVD interview very possibly signals FITD or some other love triangle or some other "complication" that involves Harry in the Trio's shipping (beyond a change in their overall friendship dynamics), but that's just *my* personal opinion. Obviously, other interpretations will vary. I did use the word "trump," but substantively, all I mean is that the *scope* of the "platonic friends" quote must surely be called into question a bit based on DVD interview quote. It should make the reasonable shippers raise their eyebrows a bit, *I* would think. <<<<<<>>>>>>> *EXACTLY.* Exactly. So, the "platontic friends" quote is *likewise* not a spoiler of "forevermore" scope. Right? Overall, I think we must agree on one thing: the interview and chat statements are subject to multiple interpretations and really can't be taken to mean anything definitive on shipping by one side or the other, especially as we consider the point that Petra hammers home again and again: it's not in Rowling's interest or desire to spoil the later books on plot points. Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Tue Apr 22 14:03:02 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 10:03:02 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What is Canon? References: <20030422014047.96103.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <01bd01c308d7$e45ce570$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55850 Maria wrote: > Because JKR does not have complete control over the merchandise and > the movies. For example, she may "guide" Kloves, but ultimately, > Kloves himself, and Columbus as well, will insert whatever subtext > they wish into the movie. Hmm...good point. > The same goes for spells. My CoS computer game, for example, has a > spell called "Mimblewimble." Should we consider it canon, then? I > don't think so. JKR didn't invent it. Ok, ya'll are starting to convince me... > Another good example is robes. Honestly, did you have the Movie!Robes > in mind when you first read the books? I saw the first movie before i read any of the books, so i had no chance to fix another image into my mind. But what's wrong with how they are depicted in the movie? They look good to me. > It would thrill me to find out more of the facts from Rowling. If she > doesn't write anything else after Book 7, I'll be content with what I > have, but I won't regard other sources as canon. But that's just me, > you're, of course, entitled to your own opinion. I think the "block" i'm having here is stemming from my experience with "canon" in the Rainbow Brite fandom. We only got 13 episodes and one movie as "canon." That's it. And there were new characters thrown into the series that were never even introduced/explained. So there are MILLIONS of holes we've had to try and fill in. So we're 'forced' to look to other sources to fill in those holes. I keep forgetting, that when the HP series is finished, there really won't be any holes left to fill. I'm sure that JKR will do a wonderful job of answering all of the important questions and wrapping things together nicely. We will have a beginning, middle and end...all written by ONE author...something i'm not used to. Amy Z wrote: > It may be thrilling, and go ahead and accept it as part of your HP > world if it gives you pleasure, but it's not Rowling canon. Canon > means "the works of an author that have been accepted as authentic" > (that's the American Heritage's opinion, anyway). I've enjoyed non- > canonical works such as Sherlock Holmes mysteries by someone other > than Arthur Conan Doyle, but they still aren't part of his canon. I do see what you're saying. I'm getting there ;) Annemehr wrote: > This is why I will never accept licensed articles as any part of > canon: because JKR is never going to be *personally* designing them. > We have two possibilities. On the one hand, the licensed merchandise > could be created with *absolute* faithfulness to what's in the books, > in which case it would add nothing to canon (and, IMO, be impossible > anyway). On the other hand, the creator of the merchandise uses his > or her imagination to fill in certain details, in which case the item > is no more canon than posts of people's opinions on this list or > fanfic that tries to remain true to the books (i.e. non-AU fic). True... > I, too, feel that I will not be learning all that I want to about > Harry Potter's world in seven books. However, I personally would not > feel that taking in other people's ideas about this world would be the > same as learning new *facts* about it. Just as I will enjoy reading > opinions here, if I see some merchandise I like I may buy it, but I > will not take any of it as canon. Furthermore, two pieces of > merchandise may contradict one another; which one would you then > believe? A very good point indeed. Ok, ya'll have convinced me...i've been converted :P Petra Pan wrote: > Ah but the series is NOT complete yet. > Info gleaned from merchandising may > very well be contradicted by future > canon. The very fact that such info > DO fill in the blanks left by current > canon is why they are attractive...but > ...it's also a weakness: such blanks > may be filled by canon later. If you go back and read my posts, you will see that i was, in fact, talking about including them as canon AFTER the series is complete, not now. But after reading these wonderful points, i will no longer consider any HP merchandise as canon. But i STILL DO believe that JKR's interviews/comments SHOULD be considered canon AFTER the series is complete. Is there anyone that would like to contest that? ~Katy~ ..who will certainly admit when she's wrong.. ;) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From william.truderung at sympatico.ca Tue Apr 22 14:35:24 2003 From: william.truderung at sympatico.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 14:35:24 -0000 Subject: What is Canon? In-Reply-To: <01bd01c308d7$e45ce570$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55851 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Katy Cartee" wrote: 'If you go back and read my posts, you will see that i was, in fact, talking about including them as canon AFTER the series is complete, not now. But after reading these wonderful points, i will no longer consider any HP merchandise as canon. But i STILL DO believe that JKR's interviews/comments SHOULD be considered canon AFTER the series is complete. Is there anyone that would like to contest that?' Me: Personally, I think that there are several 'levels' of canon, ranging from the most reliable to the least reliable. I would say that each level 'trumps' the levels below it. 1) The books, in reverse order of first publication (Book 7, Book 6, OotP, GoF, PoA, CoS, PS) - since information revealed in later books may supercede that in earlier books. The most canonical edition of each book would be the most recent Bloomsbury printing. 2) The 'schoolbooks' (QTtA, FB). 3) The interviews, in reverse order of being conducted. 4) The notes that JKR apparently wrote before writing PS, some of which were briefly displayed on British TV. For me, this would be the limit of canonicity, as these are the only levels that are actually a product of JKR's own mind. 5) The movies, in reverse order, where they provide information on subjects not covered in the higher levels. JKR apparently provided 'guidance' to the extent of blocking material that would directly contradict major future events in the books, but other than that, she did not write it herself. Bill From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Tue Apr 22 14:45:30 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 10:45:30 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Disease and Sickness References: Message-ID: <01f901c308dd$d3a2ead0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55852 The books also speak of students getting acne and trying to "curse" it off of their faces...resulting in one girl cursing off her nose...poor thing...lol :) Isn't it also mentioned that Bulbutur Puss (spelling?) in a diluted form is good for getting rid of acne? So it would appear that witches and wizards are aflicted with the same things us muggles are. They just get treatment for free ;) As far as magic folk using their powers for good in the Muggle world...that's been done before...they're called "Super Heros" ;) I wonder if Superman attended Hogwarts...lol...no, seriously, they would struggle with the same problems that we've seen in super hero stories. They would have to hide their identities, never get too close to anyone and wear spandex costumes ;) I wonder what their aliases would be...Harry could be "Lightening Man"...Ron could be "The Red Lantern" and Hermione could be "Library Woman"...hehehhe :) Ok, i've had way too much fun with this post now... ~Katy~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Tue Apr 22 14:51:18 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 10:51:18 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Animagi References: <3EA41599.34C07AA9@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <020a01c308de$a2bcf400$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55853 Susan Fox-Davis wrote: > Peter Pettigrew really wanted to be a rat while his buddies > were cool stuff like stags and wolves? Don't think so. Which raises another question...did James, Remus and Sirius find nothing suspicious about Peter turning into a rat, since it does in fact seem that they do not control which animal they turn into? I mean, if i were in a group of friends, me and 2 others turned into "noble" animals such as lions, tigers and bears...and then one friend turned into a rat (an animal known for killing babies)...i believe i'd rethink my opinion of that friend! That would certainly speak loads about their true inner character to me. Why did they not keep a closer eye on him after that? ~Katy~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rosebeth710 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 22 06:19:18 2003 From: rosebeth710 at yahoo.com (Melissa Cohon) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 23:19:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore had a number of useful spies In-Reply-To: <16b.1d85ee59.2bd5edf5@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030422061918.41387.qmail@web20514.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55854 --- JessaDrow at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/21/03 8:53:22 PM Eastern > Daylight Time, > galadriel1 at mail.charter.net writes: > > > In Chapter 10, The Marauder's Map, a number of > faculty are > > discussing James and Sirius' relationship in > Hogwarts days and the > > secret - keeper that Lily and James chose. Fudge > states, "Dumbledore, who > > > > was working tirelessly against You Know Who, had a > number of useful > > spies. One of them tipped him off, and he alerted > James and Lily at > > once." > > > > Lupin would be my guess, even though Black didn't > trust him, James and/or > Lily may have. > Me: As much as I like Lupin and would want him to have a herioc role. I have to ask, how would Lupin know what LV was planning? IMHO, Snape is the best guess because he would have access to LV's plans. Hope my elf approves. Rosebeth, a newbie __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From ratchick22 at hotmail.com Tue Apr 22 06:24:07 2003 From: ratchick22 at hotmail.com (herm - own - ninny) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 06:24:07 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and friendship outside the trio Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55855 Susan Wrote: >Despite the fact that Draco can be a little brat, he's never done >anything >TRULY evil. He's called Hermione a "mudblood" and bragged >about the >Chamber of Secrets, but he's never really HURT someone. Me: I am not of the camp that believes Evil!Draco will make an appearance in canon. To me, Draco Malfoy seems to be a lot of talk. He says shocking and hurtful things with ease, hardly giving a second thought to the implications his words have. In CoS announces that he'd be happy to see Hermione die. But his words hold no "evil" conviction, they aren't filled with passion and hatred as, say, Tom Riddle's are when he talks about his filthy Muggle father. Should Hermione have actually died, I doubt he would have been as exuberant as he claims. When Draco gets nasty and starts spewing hateful things, I feel like he's repeating Voldemort propaganda instilled in him by Lucius. He firmly believes in what he says without -really- understanding what it means. It's easy to wish hateful things onto a bunch of "filthy" Muggles he's never met. I guess I'm saying that despite what Draco may say, and despite what he may think he believes in, when push comes to shove he doesn't want to see the people he knows die. When Cedric is murdered Draco is able to be cocky about the whole affair because he didn't really know Cedric, did he? I mean, Harry hardly knew him at all until they both became champions. I see no evidence that Draco and Cedric had any sort of interaction, other than Quidditch. It's unlikely they ever spoke to each other, so to him Cedric is just another name. Perhaps that's why it's so easy for Draco to shrug off his death. However at the start of GoF, at the QWC, Draco comes across the trio in the forrest and he warns Hermione to get away. Sure, he doesn't do it in the nicest way possible, but his words are nevertheless a warning veiled in an insult. Why would he do this? Hermione is a Mudblood and surely she deserves to be persecuted by the DEs. Maybe it's because he knows Hermione, he's formed a relationship with her, and she is his peer. Therefore he does not actually want to see her get hurt, at least not subconciously. I think that if Draco is confronted by a situation where someone he has formed a relationship with is actually murdered, his words and his beliefs will take on a the solid reality that they now lack. Susan again: >Harry and Draco will probably never really be "friend friends" and will >continue to butt heads, but I think they will form a mutual respect >for >each >other. In war, you need all the help you can get, personal vendettas aside. > Me: When asked, JKR said in an interview (don't ask me which one) that Harry and Draco will not become friends later on, and that the idea is only a rumour. This leads me to believe that they will not be forming any sort of friendship, or mutual respect, or what have you. They'll stay enemies to the last. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From sarohpenguin at hotmail.com Tue Apr 22 09:00:40 2003 From: sarohpenguin at hotmail.com (Sally) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 09:00:40 -0000 Subject: The timeline on the DVD *confirms* canon. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55856 I just thought I'd throw this in - my birthday is a week before Hermione's, and I was the second youngest in my graduating class. My best friend was a full 10 months older than I, and in the same grade. Neither of us failed or skipped years. I seem to recall that kids with birthdays that close to the cut off have to be tested before they're let in. But I'm American, so I'm not sure how much sway that holds. Personally, I like to think she's younger than the boys - it makes her being the top student in their class that much more impressive :) From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue Apr 22 09:09:01 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 09:09:01 -0000 Subject: Harry not related to the Dursleys? Harry vs Ron? In-Reply-To: <20030421182108.5373.qmail@web40507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55857 ~Kathryn: > > Me: I belive what we agreed upon is that this is all in the powers of the Mirror of Erised. It doesn't show the truth or the future, just the deepest desires of Harry's heart. Harry desires to be with his parents and have a big supportive family. The Dursley's are mean to him and hate everything about him and his parents...so family or not, he doesn't want them there so of course, they would not be present in the Mirror of Erised. > I think that Harry not wanting Dursleys is an understatement... He wished for some unknown relative to come and take him - holding onto the fact that Dursleys are NOT his parents to survive. It is somewhat similar to Sirius holding onto being innocent among Dementors in my view. This regular, mental practise with Dursleys might have assisted in Harry's finally learned ability to summon a Patronus - although he still needed practise and tutelage, I think that finding Sirius was what finally did it - gave him the ability he'd gain as soon as he'd *believe* he had it. Further, it is interesting to note that Ron isn't at all addicted about the Mirror. Imperius Curse OTOH is something that greatly affects Ron, but not Harry, who manages to shake it off... -- Finwitch From cristina_angelo at yahoo.com Tue Apr 22 10:09:37 2003 From: cristina_angelo at yahoo.com (Cristina Rebelo Angelo) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 12:09:37 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Honorifics In-Reply-To: <1d7.7a26634.2bd5b459@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55858 -----Message d'origine----- De : jodel at aol.com [mailto:jodel at aol.com] Because we are depending on the perceptions of a Muggle-raised PoV character. Have we ever heard Molly Weasley actually *called* Mrs. Weasley by anyone other than Harry or the narriator? Have we ever heard Draco's mother *called* Mrs Malfoy? I don't think so. That's Harry filling in the blanks acording to the customs in which he was raised. aaaaaaah... I keep looking forward to the moment when Harry will address Ron's mother in that wondeful English way, "Mrs. W"... I find it so tender... I doubt the Dursleys ever let Harry call anyone that way, and I feel it would really be a sort of coming of age to the little guy - I don't think it's used in WW, so if he'd use a Muggle expression that he was never allowed to use, it would be like he really integrated both his origins (Muggle by education, Wizard by birth). I see it after listening to Hermione doing it a lot, if Hermione opens up to such informality. Maybe when addressing her in-laws?... ************************** Cristina Rebelo Angelo Any attached file not mentioned in the body of the message may be a virus; if present, delete it for the sake of your computer, and inform the sender. Thank you. "Quand on n'a que l'amour/ Pour tracer un chemin/ Et forcer le destin/ A chaque carrefour Quand on n'a que l'amour/ Pour parler aux canons/ Et rien qu'une chanson/ Pour coinvancre un tambour Alors sans avoir rien/ Que la force d'aimer/ Nous aurons dans nos mains/ Amis le monde entier" J.Brel 1956 From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Tue Apr 22 10:17:22 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (Monita) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 10:17:22 -0000 Subject: Pronunciation of 'Knut' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55859 It is at the discretion of the creator of the series how she intended it to be pronounced. So if J.K. never posts to us we may never know. However, I am under the impression that she was consulted during the making of the official games and movies and other such products and thus upon hearing the word Knut pronounced kuh-nut in the official Playstation Game of Harry Potter and the Philosophers Stone, I have assumed the presumption that this is likely to be the correct pronuciation in this case. Yeah? yeah.... the valkspeaks From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Tue Apr 22 10:53:35 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (Monita) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 10:53:35 -0000 Subject: I love Theories Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55860 Hey I finally figured out how to post did I? I am going to Bombard you with my involved investigative Theories of Harry Potter subplots. The Valk is a Harry Potter manic obssessive of sorts perchance the reason i digested the entire series no less than thrice in the year i began reading it. lol Heres my first theory . There is a consensus of rumours, albeit posted mainly by younger fans in other places, that young Ginny Weasley might be killed off in the future book, being a "special fan" of Harrys and thus fitting the ambiguous description given in the JK official releases. Beg to differ all but Ginny is far far from her end in the series. Another official JK statement gives us the strongest clue where young Ginny is headed. A few of the Hogwarts students will become animagii in future books. Well lets just hold our breaths, she hasnt given us a peek at Ginny's Transfiguration lessons yet, but, i assure you that when she does we are going to be in for a treat. Clues Clues*, In Chamber we are shown a short glimpse of Ginnys interest in transfiguration. seek and ye shall find. Ginny will be a masterful and beautiful animagii and will turn heads with her prowess and skill. Really? really really theValk speaks From alison.williams at virgin.net Tue Apr 22 13:56:26 2003 From: alison.williams at virgin.net (alison.williams) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 06:56:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Philosopher's Stone (Was: PS/SS Title Change) Message-ID: <701426.1051019786375.JavaMail.Administrator@atp> No: HPFGUIDX 55861 >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ibot Bracchae-Breves > wrote: > >'I now await the jury's verdict with a pounding heart. If people are >interested I can go on to explain further symbology. If not I'm sure >I'll get to hear about it! > >Hans' > >I for one would *love* to hear more. I have always been interested >in the symbolism behind the HP stories (having had an interest in >mythology, Jungian psychology, alchemy, etc. for quite some time) and >your point of view sounds quite different and interesting. > >Bill I've always felt that there was a great deal in these books that could be read as spiritual/religious symbolism but have met mostly with blank stares when I've mentioned this to people! I know that such topics can be problematic at times so I hope it can be discussed here and that it won't cause any problems. I'd also agree with Hans that this is only one way of reading the books, and that they work excellently on several different levels. I've recemtly read John Granger's book The Hidden key to HP and found it fascinating even if I think he stretches some points a little past credulity at times to draw out what he sees as Christian symbolism. However I couldn't read the ending of CoS again after reading his book without the symbolism seeming to leap out at me. Basically for those who haven't read Granger my notes of what he is saying are - Harry is everyman Ginny is Innocence Riddle/Voldemort is Satan The Basilisk is Sin Dumbledore is God Fawkes the Phoenix is Christ Phoenix Song is Holy Spirit Gryffyndor's Sword is 'the Sword of Faith/Spirit' The Chamber is the World and Hogwarts is Heaven More info at http://www.ev90481.dial.pipex.com/harry_potter_granger.htm I should emphasise I am not saying this is *the only* or *the right* way to read it but it does seem rather neat doesn't it? This is my first post BTW and I'm quite prepared for it to be bounced back if its felt to be inappropriate. Alison From kenneyjohn at yahoo.com.au Tue Apr 22 10:55:20 2003 From: kenneyjohn at yahoo.com.au (kenney) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 10:55:20 -0000 Subject: Harry and friendship outside the trio Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55862 "Susan XG" said: Those two have more in common than they think. I believe that Draco Can and will be redeemed. NOW ME: Draco... redeemed? I'm not so sure of this, I mean the school needs a bully, and the wizard world needs jerks. Redeemed? No but yes, he is harmless "Susan XG" said: He's going to be the "Spike" of the series. NOW ME: Good gravy! Someone other than me watches BUFFY! Yes, he is rather too easy to compare to Spike, isn't he, even without the blonde hair. Except of course he hasn't got a chip in his head... or has he?!?!?! "Susan XG" said: I don't think he really, truly knows how evil his father is NOW ME: Of course not. Even if he does find out about his father's evilness, he'll dismiss it. There is no way he'll turn on his father. He sees his father do something and its okay for him to do it as well... "Susan XG" said: He's never really HURT someone. NOW ME: Of course he's hurt someone. He's an evil git. Mentally, more people at Hogwarts will need a therapist than ever before! "Susan XG" said: Draco has been "conditioned" by his father to be the way he is (even going as far as wanting to send him to Durmstrang. (His mother didn't want that...), NOW ME: It's called Nature vs. Nurture We're studying Vygotsky's and Piaget at UNI and all of their "theories" Nature is more of instinct while Nurture is the behaviour we mimic as we see others do for example draco is a evil git, because his father is a git. Similarly, Lucius may genetically be a git therefore Draco is also a genetic git. This is confusing... "Susan XG" said: He couldn't be a Death Eater. They are pure followers. That may be one of the reasons Snape watches him so closely. He doesn't want Malfoy to become what he was. NOW ME: Gosh, I'd never thought of this before... Snape keeping a close eye... yes, it fits. Excellent deduction! >From Beneath You It Devours! or From The Key of Kenney who is up to the part in GoF when the reach the Quidditch world cup for, well let me see now... for the 4th or 5th time. From grace701 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 22 15:25:14 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 15:25:14 -0000 Subject: Truth, SHIPs, Rita Skeeter and Power of Magic (was Re: SHIPping Attitudes) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55863 Ebony wrote: > But now as OotP looms near, one must wonder if those articles did > not have another purpose as far as the narrative is concerned. > Not only has it been in wizarding Britain's media *twice* that > Hermione is Harry's girlfriend (which as of GoF she is not), but > that first article publicized her Muggle-born status (which she > is). > And Voldemort is back, and has the advantage of stealth on his > side. > No wonder JKR asked in an interview why no one ever worries about > Hermione dying. Sure, Hermione is the only developed younger > female > character, but that doesn't make her immune. Death is only a bit > of what might happen. > So therefore, it's a bit misleading to deem the Skeeter articles > H/H fiction. In this case, the "fiction" could have really > negative consequences... but then again, I tend to see a bit more > darkness on the horizon in canon, and I don't think that SHIPping > is going to be divorced enough from the rest of the plot to rest > easily with OBHWF. Actually, I worry about Hermione for that particular reason. I just don't like to think about it because she is my favorite character. Rita Skeeter told the Wizarding World that she is Harry's girlfriend and she's muggle born. Hermione's an easy target. Yes, there is a great possibility that Voldemort doesn't read the Daily Prophet, but Wormtail could have mentioned Hermione, and Ron. Also, Crouch Jr! Moody was probably keeping in contact with V throughout the school year, letting him know everything that is going on around Harry. Particularly that a muggleborn by the name of Hermione Granger is helping him out with his tasks. Which brings me to the topic about The Power of Magic/Hermione's Magical Power threads and the "Harry needs Hermione" quote. Hermione is a witch for a reason, whether she is studious or not, she has the capability if not she wouldn't have received a letter from Hogwarts. If she wasn't such an over-achiever she would be at about the same range with Harry and Ron, whichever range that is since we do not know, but we do know she wouldn't be dumb like Crabbe and Goyle. I believe she has photographic memory so whatever she reads she'll remember. JKR picked Hermione to be the smart one in order to help Harry and Ron throughout the series. If Hermione wasn't around it would take them double the time to figure out the clues. This is why Harry needs Hermione. Without Hermione things cannot be done and you'll never see things in a rational/patient view point with Ron because Ron overreacts right away. Hermione makes them focus on the situation at hand. If anything happens to her, Harry wouldn't have much direction. Hermione *maybe*, imo, Voldemort's bait for Harry. Whether he kidnaps her or kills her, God and JKR forbid, Harry won't sit back and wait. I believe that *if* anything happens to Hermione it will be the straw that broke the camel's back and Harry is going to flip. He'll seek out Voldemort, which I'm sure is what V would want. Same goes for Ron, too, don't get me wrong. If anything happens to Ron, Harry will be distraught, but Hermione has more a possibility than Ron to be attacked by Voldemort. I bet anything Lucius will tell V to leave the Weasleys to him. Perhaps V will make Harry choose who to save! Whichever door Harry picks first, his other bestfriend is sure to die. How about that analogy for the book cover? Oh geez, I didn't want to think of that, but that is a possibility. I have no doubt in my mind that Harry has a special place in his heart for his two bestfriends and Hagrid, the first three to be- friend him, that'll make him go crazy if anything were to happen to them. But has a very soft spot for Hermione especially because well....I just like to think so. ;) Greicy From siskiou at earthlink.net Tue Apr 22 15:33:36 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 08:33:36 -0700 Subject: Worried about Hermione/others Re: [HPforGrownups] re: Truth, SHIPs, and Rita Skeeter (OOP mention) In-Reply-To: <20030422041351.13785.h009.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net> References: <20030422041351.13785.h009.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net> Message-ID: <5444674204.20030422083336@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 55864 Hi, Tuesday, April 22, 2003, 4:13:51 AM, Calliope wrote: > There's no > telling what > Voldemort might decide to do to Hermione to get back at Harry if he > believes she > is Harry's girlfriend. I wonder about this sometimes, meaning the possibility that Voldemort will go after Ron, Hermione or their families, to somehow get back at Harry. What puzzles me a bit is that nobody in the HP universe seems to worry much about this. No special protection for Hermione outside of Hogwarts (as far as we know), and the Weasleys seem to pretty much live life as they always have and Ron never mentions that anything changed since they've known Harry. And while Harry has some unexplained protection at the Dursleys, he still gets to go to the Quidditch Worldcup, where all sorts of things could have happened to him. I also wonder why nobody seems to worry much about repercussions for Ginny from being used by Riddle and Scabbers/Pettigrew having lived with the Weasleys for ages, having had the chance to do *something* if he had wanted to... -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From grace701 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 22 15:47:02 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 15:47:02 -0000 Subject: Harry and friendship outside the trio In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55865 Bill said: >"I believe that Ron and Hermione will get together, probably in > OotP, leaving Harry out in the cold. On top of his other > concerns, that's gotta hurt. This may be one more reason for > Harry to look for somebody outside the Trio for friendship. Susan wrote: > Personally, I think Harry is going to turn to Draco Malfoy (not in THAT way! > *g*). Those two have more in common than they think. I believe that Draco > can and will be redeemed. He's going to be the "Spike" of the series. > Up until this point, Draco has one interpretation of his father, but > something is going to happen (possibly in OotP), that is going to change his > impression of Lucius forever. ...when the time comes I don't think he'll > choose to align with Voldemort. Draco is too much of a leader. He couldn't > be a Death Eater. They are pure followers. That may be one of the reasons > Snape watches him so closely. He doesn't want Malfoy to become what he was. > > Harry and Draco will probably never really be "friend friends" and will > continue to butt heads, but I think they will form a mutual respect for each > other. In war, you need all the help you can get, personal vendettas aside. Kenney, I watch Buffy also, so there's three of us in here! (I can't believe Xander's eye was poked in! :() Anyhow, I like the idea of a Draco redeem, but only if he is exactly like Cassandra's Draco. I absolutely love the fan fic by Cassandra, which is called Draco Series (it isn't done yet :(). Draco can still be the, pardon my language, ass and bully, but have the utmost respect and trust for Harry. *IF* Hermione and Ron get together, *IF*, Harry may feel left out and become friends with Draco, but I think this will cause Ron to be jealousy of Harry and Draco's relationship and not be able to accept it. This time Ron will not want to be friends with Harry at all. I see a lot of "Ron problems" rising from Harry and Draco's relationship. Hermione would accept Draco because if Harry trusts him then there has to be a reason for her to trust him as well. At least that's the way I would see it. Kenney wrote: Draco... redeemed? I'm not so sure of this, I mean the school needs a bully, and the wizard world needs jerks. Redeemed? No but yes, he is harmless Hey maybe some other bully will rise from the masses? Greicy From bard7696 at aol.com Tue Apr 22 15:56:31 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 15:56:31 -0000 Subject: Worried about Hermione/others Re: [HPforGrownups] re: Truth, SHIPs, and Rita Skeeter (OOP mention) In-Reply-To: <5444674204.20030422083336@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55866 > I also wonder why nobody seems to worry much about > repercussions for Ginny from being used by Riddle and > Scabbers/Pettigrew having lived with the Weasleys for ages, > having had the chance to do *something* if he had wanted > to... > > -- > Best regards, > Susanne Not only does there seem to be no concern, I'd say Mr. and Mrs. Weasley don't even know about Scabbers being Pettigrew. At the end of GoF, Molly reacted to Sirius showing his human form with fear and screamed "Sirius Black." Ron had to say, "Mom, shut up, it's ok." That indicates Ron didn't tell her about Scabbers really being a wizard everyone thought was dead and that Sirius Black was really not the one who killed Pettigrew. Maybe he just told her Scabbers finally died and they buried him at Hogwarts. Come to think of it, what did Ron tell his parents about getting Pidgewigeon? Did he say he saved his pocket money for a small owl, or that it was a gift from Harry or Hermione, or an owl he found and trained up with Hagrid's help? As for Ginny and the Diary. At the time, it was thought that the Diary was only a remnant of Voldemort, and not a prelude to him returning. It was probably left with that talking-to she got about not using strange items without first showing her dad. From bard7696 at aol.com Tue Apr 22 15:56:53 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 15:56:53 -0000 Subject: Worried about Hermione/others Re: [HPforGrownups] re: Truth, SHIPs, and Rita Skeeter (OOP mention) In-Reply-To: <5444674204.20030422083336@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55867 > I also wonder why nobody seems to worry much about > repercussions for Ginny from being used by Riddle and > Scabbers/Pettigrew having lived with the Weasleys for ages, > having had the chance to do *something* if he had wanted > to... > > -- > Best regards, > Susanne Not only does there seem to be no concern, I'd say Mr. and Mrs. Weasley don't even know about Scabbers being Pettigrew. At the end of GoF, Molly reacted to Sirius showing his human form with fear and screamed "Sirius Black." Ron had to say, "Mom, shut up, it's ok." That indicates Ron didn't tell her about Scabbers really being a wizard everyone thought was dead and that Sirius Black was really not the one who killed Pettigrew. Maybe he just told her Scabbers finally died and they buried him at Hogwarts. Come to think of it, what did Ron tell his parents about getting Pidgewigeon? Did he say he saved his pocket money for a small owl, or that it was a gift from Harry or Hermione, or an owl he found and trained up with Hagrid's help? As for Ginny and the Diary. At the time, it was thought that the Diary was only a remnant of Voldemort, and not a prelude to him returning. It was probably left with that talking-to she got about not using strange items without first showing her dad. Darrin -- Scabbers and the Pigs would be a good name for a band From patricia at obscure.org Tue Apr 22 15:58:29 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 11:58:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry not related to the Dursleys? Harry vs Ron? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55868 On Tue, 22 Apr 2003, finwitch wrote: > Further, it is interesting to note that Ron isn't at all addicted > about the Mirror. Imperius Curse OTOH is something that greatly > affects Ron, but not Harry, who manages to shake it off... That *is* interesting. I think, when it comes down to it, Ron is a much happier person than Harry. The things Ron saw in the Mirror are really pretty superficial. He already has the really important things: a supportive family, unconditional love, a place he belongs, etc. I think for Harry the pull of the Mirror is so much stronger because what he wants is to find a piece of himself he feels is missing, whereas Ron just wants material things. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From siskiou at earthlink.net Tue Apr 22 15:59:54 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 08:59:54 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and friendship outside the trio In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <746251488.20030422085954@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 55869 Hi, Monday, April 21, 2003, 11:24:07 PM, herm wrote: > when push comes to shove he doesn't want to see > the > people he knows die. Hm... What about dressing up as dementors, *knowing* how it affects Harry, during a Quidditch match? At age thirteen, you'd think it would occur to Draco (and his helpers) that this might be a deadly trick, or at least might hurt Harry and/or others. I see Draco as a spoiled kid, who's always gotten what he wants (and gotten away manipulating others, including his dad), but doesn't have much of a backbone, so far. I wonder if he has it in him to take a stand against his father some day (which is certainly not easy, but necessary, looking at Lucius's involvement). -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From dorigen at hotmail.com Tue Apr 22 16:12:48 2003 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 16:12:48 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and friendship outside the trio Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55870 >What about dressing up as dementors, *knowing* how it >affects Harry, during a Quidditch match? > >At age thirteen, you'd think it would occur to Draco (and >his helpers) that this might be a deadly trick, or at least >might hurt Harry and/or others. Well, yes, but at age thirteen (or older) you would think that it would have occurred to MWPP that sending someone into the same place as a werewolf might not be a good idea either. I think that teenagers consider themselves and their contemporaries immortal, until either age or a sharp shock teaches them otherwise. Harry (among others) got the sharp shock from Cedric's death. Draco, not caring about Cedric, probably hasn't gotten it yet. Also, remember the theory that a fall from a height might hurt a wizard but is unlikely to kill him. Janet Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From siskiou at earthlink.net Tue Apr 22 16:27:03 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 09:27:03 -0700 Subject: Worried about Hermione/others Re: [HPforGrownups] re: Truth, SHIPs, and Rita Skeeter (OOP mention) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <10747880623.20030422092703@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 55871 Hi, Tuesday, April 22, 2003, 8:56:53 AM, darrin_burnett wrote: > That indicates Ron didn't tell her about Scabbers really being a > wizard everyone thought was dead and that Sirius Black was really not > the one who killed Pettigrew. Maybe he just told her Scabbers finally > died and they buried him at Hogwarts. I'm not sure if Ron told his family, but I see it as Dumbledore's responsibility to inform Arthur and Molly of such discoveries personally! I always assumed he did, but if it turns out he didn't, my respect for Dumbledore sinks into an abyss, I have to say. Seeing how kids think, I can see Ron not telling, but if Dumbledore didn't I'll start to wonder which side he is on... ;) -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From siskiou at earthlink.net Tue Apr 22 16:31:27 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 09:31:27 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and friendship outside the trio In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <748144809.20030422093127@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 55872 Hi, Tuesday, April 22, 2003, 9:12:48 AM, Janet wrote: > Well, yes, but at age thirteen (or older) you would think that it > would have > occurred to MWPP that sending someone into the same place as a > werewolf > might not be a good idea either. Right! Depending on how the story really happened (we don't know the details, do we?) I certainly think they should have. I'm not a MWPP fan by a long shot, anyhow ;) > Also, > remember the theory that a fall from a height might hurt a wizard but > is > unlikely to kill him. I know of the theory, but in my opinion the wizard/witch needs to be conscious to "bounce" a la Neville. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From the_fox01 at hotmail.com Tue Apr 22 15:51:56 2003 From: the_fox01 at hotmail.com (The Fox) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 11:51:56 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Animagi Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55873 From: "Katy Cartee" >did James, Remus and Sirius find nothing suspicious about Peter turning >into a rat, since it does in fact seem that they do not control which >animal they turn into? I mean, if i were in a group of friends, me and 2 >others turned into "noble" animals such as lions, tigers and bears...and >then one friend turned into a rat (an animal known for killing babies)...i >believe i'd rethink my opinion of that friend! That would certainly speak >loads about their true inner character to me. Why did they not keep a >closer eye on him after that? I don't think the rat has the same cachet in the wizarding world as it does in ours. It's true that in our world, there are those who keep pet rats -- but two things are true in conjunction with that: these are specifically-bred pet rats, for one, and even given this, there are plenty of people who consider rats a disgusting and inappropriate animal to be kept as a pet. The same does not appear to be the case in the wizarding world. Nobody blinks at all at the fact that Ron's pet is a rat; nobody has anything to say about the fact that Neville's pet is a toad. The question of which animals are worthy or suitable, and therefore domesticated, is answered by how dangerous they are (so Hagrid's dragons, hippogriffs, blast-ended skrewts, etc. do *not* make good pets [g]). It seems that in the wizarding world, the rat per se is not considered dangerous, and therefore the fact that Peter turns into a rat is no cause for comment. (I don't believe Lupin or Black ever says, once it becomes clear that Peter was the fink, "does anyone smell a rat?" and Peter is never described as having "ratted out" James and Lily -- which may not be common expressions in Britain, for all I know, but their absence illustrates my point anyway: there was no reason to be suspicious just because Peter's animal form was a rat.) Besides, a werewolf is more dangerous than a rat any day, and they weren't suspicious of Lupin -- who had no more control over his transformation than they did. (Less, even! [g]) Fox ........... Matthew 7:1 Luke 6:37 ... "You want to tempt the wrath of the whatever from high atop the thing?" -- West Wing ... Come on, Nature Just because I don't feel weak Don't mean I feel so strong. -- the Proclaimers .............................. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From Kira1119 at Hotmail.com Tue Apr 22 15:07:21 2003 From: Kira1119 at Hotmail.com (Kira November) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 10:07:21 -0500 Subject: Prefects who gain power Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55874 Kristen wrote: . . . I believe it was mentioned to further illustrate Percy's >ambition. There have been many hints that Percy has a lot of thirst for power and success. This was somewhat realized in GoF where he followed around Mr. Crouch. We have yet to see how Mr. Crouch's demise affected him, but I think his ambition still has a part to play before he realizes how important his family is. > pegruppel: I agree that Percy isn't quite as awful as he's portrayed. Although he's a "prig" he's also in Gryffindor (and not, I think, just because all of the rest of his family has been). I think the Sorting Hat put him there on his own merits. ------------------------------------ My take on Percy when I first read the books was that as a middle child, Percy wanted respect, attention, and recognition. Older children get more privileges and are given more responsibility, younger children get more attention; I think Percy felt invisible. In that position, to get attention you have to be spectacularly good (Percy) or bad (Fred and George.) I think Percy decided to be the very best student, boy, and son that he could possibly be, instead of the very best quidditch player or prankster. Also, given the attitude of the Malfoys towards the Weasleys, Percy may want to excel, and excel publically, to show just what a Weasley can be. Ron's opinion to the contrary, I don't think Percy would sell out any member of his family for personal gain, since I don't think he sees it as truly 'personal' gain. Kira November (who had been wondering where all the *adult* fans of HP were hiding!) ************************************************ So Emily pulls out what she wants me to wear, and okay, she's small, but she's a strong little lady, because I swear to you we went toe to toe in there and she wiped the floor with me. "I won't!" I yelled. "I will not! I got trauma!"--but you know, essentially I'm a blowhard plus I've never yet hit a girl, so after a while she got me into the clown suit. (from 'Juggling Act' by Speranza ************************************************ _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From patricia at obscure.org Tue Apr 22 16:48:42 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 12:48:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and friendship outside the trio In-Reply-To: <748144809.20030422093127@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55875 On Tue, 22 Apr 2003, Susanne wrote: > Tuesday, April 22, 2003, 9:12:48 AM, Janet wrote: > > > Also, > > remember the theory that a fall from a height might hurt a wizard but > > is > > unlikely to kill him. > > I know of the theory, but in my opinion the wizard/witch > needs to be conscious to "bounce" a la Neville. I tend to agree. I figure the magical mind reacts instinctively to the incoming threat in much the same way that the muggle mind causes one's hands to instinctively cover one's face if an object is flying towards it. The action happens before the conscious thought, but the mind still needs to perceive the threat before it can react. If you are knocked out, someone can punch you in the face all day and your hands won't move an inch to protect you because your mind can't perceive the need to do so. Similarly, if a falling wizard were unconscious before hitting the ground, he would not bounce because his mind would not be able to perceive the ground rising towards him and react accordingly. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From bard7696 at aol.com Tue Apr 22 16:51:11 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 16:51:11 -0000 Subject: Worried about Hermione/others Re: [HPforGrownups] re: Truth, SHIPs, and Rita Skeeter (OOP mention) In-Reply-To: <10747880623.20030422092703@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55876 Susanne wrote: > > I'm not sure if Ron told his family, but I see it as > Dumbledore's responsibility to inform Arthur and Molly of > such discoveries personally! > > I always assumed he did, but if it turns out he didn't, my > respect for Dumbledore sinks into an abyss, I have to say. > > Seeing how kids think, I can see Ron not telling, but if > Dumbledore didn't I'll start to wonder which side he is > on... ;) But I think it's safe to assume that he DIDN'T tell Arthur and Molly, given how Molly reacted when Sirius popped up in the hospital ward at the end of GoF. If Dumbledore would have told her Scabbers was really Pettigrew, then the first thing she would have said is: "But I thought Sirius Black killed him" which leads into Sirius being innocent. And remember, Harry and Hermione, and Dumbledore for suggesting it, broke some pretty major wizard laws to free Sirius Black. I would imagine Dumbledore isn't spreading that around. Nope, far as I can tell, Molly thinks Scabbers finally bit the big cheese and Ron managed to scrounge up an owl from somewhere. Darrin -- Scabbers and the Scroungers would make a great name for a band From siskiou at earthlink.net Tue Apr 22 16:57:33 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 09:57:33 -0700 Subject: Dumbledore and Scabbers, was Re: Worried about Hermione/others In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <149710488.20030422095733@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 55877 Hi, Tuesday, April 22, 2003, 9:51:11 AM, darrin_burnett wrote: > given how Molly reacted when Sirius popped up in the hospital ward at > the end of GoF. Maybe I should start looking into the Evil!Dumbledore theories ;) What name is that going under again? Or are there any IrresponsibleFool!Dumbledore theories out there? Maybe he's just really sure Pettigrew didn't ever attempt to change back to human form during his time at the Weasleys or at Hogwarts, for some reason? -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Tue Apr 22 17:34:09 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 13:34:09 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What is Canon? References: Message-ID: <029601c308f5$68c02b20$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55878 Bill wrote: > Personally, I think that there are several 'levels' of canon, ranging > from the most reliable to the least reliable. Sheesh, i feel like i'm chasing my own tail i'm going around in so many circles. Please read my previous posts on this thread. I already mentioned the "levels" of canon and agree with them. The only question i have left on this subject is: will the 'majority' of HP fans recognize JKR's interviews as "canon" AFTER the series is complete (whether it be level 2 canon or level 1, i don't really care)? It seems that most already do consider it as such, as they use quotes from her to prove or disprove points/questions/theories. But there seem to be those that refuse to consider making her words canon. So for those that that applies to, why not? ~Katy~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kiatrier at yahoo.com Tue Apr 22 16:54:34 2003 From: kiatrier at yahoo.com (Kia) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 16:54:34 -0000 Subject: Truth, SHIPs, and Rita Skeeter (was Re: SHIPping Attitudes) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55879 >But now as OotP looms near, one must wonder if those articles >did not have another purpose as far as the narrative is >concerned. Not only has it been in wizarding Britain's media >*twice* that Hermione is Harry's girlfriend (which as of GoF she >is not), but that first article publicized her Muggle-born status >(which she is). >And Voldemort is back, and has the advantage of stealth on his >side. There was never any kind of apology or statement from either Rita or The Daily Prophet that the articles were not exactly journalism at its best. Therefore everyone, who doesn't know better (which is pretty much everyone outside Hogwarts), believes that every single word in those articles are the bare truth. Maybe not the "Harry is dangerous" one, although even this article already influenced Fudge greatly. So Harry is a cry-baby, when it comes to his parents, can't detect love potions, his girlfriend is the Muggleborn Hermione Granger etc and everyone, especially every Death Eater (and probably even Pettigrew and Voldemort himself), takes this for the bare truth. I can't believe that this won't influence anything, it's too easy to use these half-truths one way or another. >No wonder JKR asked in an interview why no one ever worries >about Hermione dying. Sure, Hermione is the only developed >younger female character, but that doesn't make her immune. >Death is only a bit of what might happen. I worry about Hermione a lot. In the inter-trio ship debates I sometimes wonder what we all will do, if Hermione is pushing up the daisies by the end of Book Six. Although as a girl there is a whole lot more nastiness involved in killing her. (To quote a Luc Besson movie - "No women. No children. That's the rules.") Hermione falls into both categories... and Harry might need the extra-push that such nastiness would provide. I mean currently Voldemort isn't all that scary or evil - all his really evil deeds happened indirectly (Cedric) or off-screen (The Potters). >So therefore, it's a bit misleading to deem the Skeeter articles >H/H fiction. In this case, the "fiction" could have really negative >consequences... but then again, I tend to see a bit more >darkness on the horizon in canon, and I don't think that >SHIPping is going to be divorced enough from the rest of the >plot to rest easily with OBHWF. *Looks at comparable literature and nods* The happy times in the books (Were there really any?) are over. What now comes will be a lot less pleasant for the characters although it might be make good drama. - Kia From william.truderung at sympatico.ca Tue Apr 22 17:42:45 2003 From: william.truderung at sympatico.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 17:42:45 -0000 Subject: What is Canon? In-Reply-To: <029601c308f5$68c02b20$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55880 I wrote: Personally, I think that there are several 'levels' of canon, ranging from the most reliable to the least reliable. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Katy Cartee" wrote: Sheesh, i feel like i'm chasing my own tail i'm going around in so many circles. Please read my previous posts on this thread. I already mentioned the "levels" of canon and agree with them. Me: Hey, don't bite my head off. I already read your previous post, and was expanding in more detail on my own views on levels of canon. Bill From siskiou at earthlink.net Tue Apr 22 17:46:16 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 10:46:16 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Truth, SHIPs, and Rita Skeeter (was Re: SHIPping Attitudes) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3552632959.20030422104616@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 55881 Hi, Tuesday, April 22, 2003, 9:54:34 AM, Kia wrote: > There was never any kind of apology or statement from either > Rita or The Daily Prophet that the articles were not exactly > journalism at its best. Weren't these articles in a different magazine? The name escapes me atm. Witch Weekly? A kind of magazine, comparable to the ones in the Muggleworld, where you *know* most of the stuff is overblown gossip ;) > Therefore everyone, who doesn't know better (which is pretty > much everyone outside Hogwarts), believes that every single > word in those articles are the bare truth. Well, I sure hope there are some level headed people in the WW who *don't* believe everything in this kind of magazine is the truth and nothing but the truth. I was a little angry at Molly for believing at least part of it. Didn't like having this cliche image of the "stay at home and read gossip magazines" attached to her. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From manawydan at ntlworld.com Tue Apr 22 18:06:43 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 19:06:43 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] wizards and sickness (slightly fanficcy in places) References: <1051000176.2066.64294.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000f01c308f9$f1a66a40$d97d0550@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 55882 Fandulin wrote: >Voldemort. I was just thinking that young wizards, especially those >from muggle backgrounds would sometimes see the chaos and sadness of >the muggle world and wonder if they should be doing something. I > >struggles that most of the world has to put up with. I do agree that >if their interference was discovered, it would be an extremely >slippery slope from then on. Probably an easy dilemma to fall into. Let's surmise. Hermione is home for the holidays. She is helping her dad in the garage. Dad falls off the stepladder, there is a sickening crack and it's obvious that he's broken his leg rather nastily. He's in a lot of pain. Even if H goes and calls an ambulance on the fellytone, Dad is still going to be suffering for a while. He'll also be off work for weeks (which given that he's self employed will affect the family's income). So H whips out her wand and does the Leg Repair Charm that she learned while doing wizardly first aid last term. Dad's leg is as good as new. In fact it's slightly better than new, because not only is his broken leg better, but the arthritis that he's got from the position that he has to stand in while doing people's teeth has also got better. He asks whether her charm has done this. "Yes" says Hermione. "I wish you'd do my leg" says Mam, who is in the same occupation, "My knee is giving me gyp this wet weather". So Hermione repairs her Mam's leg too. That afternoon. Mrs Granger is talking to her mother (H's granny) on the phone. "Oh" says granny, "my arthritis is really bad now, I can hardly walk". "Why don't you come round" is the reply, "Hermione's got a, um, alternative healing technique, it's worked wonders for us". "Marvellous" says granny, "Can I bring Auntie Vi as well?" Next day, granny arrives, bringing with her Auntie Vi and also Brenda from the old folks' club. What does Hermione do? She can either refuse to treat them, meaning that she's left with the guilt of her granny's (whom she loves dearly) suffering, the disappointment of her parents, and so on, or she can treat her granny, Auntie Vi (who's actually granny's neighbour, Hermione doesn't really like her very much), and Brenda, in the _knowledge_ that the following day there's going to be a coachload at the door. And reporters. And a tv crew. And eventually the heavy mob from the MoM armed with a shedload of Memory Charms and an arrest warrant for Hermione for breaking the secrecy laws. Not an easy decision to make. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From gwendolyngrace at yahoo.com Tue Apr 22 18:13:29 2003 From: gwendolyngrace at yahoo.com (gwendolyngrace) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 18:13:29 -0000 Subject: The Philosopher's Stone (Was: PS/SS Title Change) In-Reply-To: <701426.1051019786375.JavaMail.Administrator@atp> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55883 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "alison.williams" wrote: > > I've recemtly read John Granger's book The Hidden key to HP and found it > fascinating even if I think he stretches some points a little past credulity > at times to draw out what he sees as Christian symbolism. However I > couldn't read the ending of CoS again after reading his book without the > symbolism seeming to leap out at me. > Hi, Allison! Replies to this parts of post should probably go to OT-chatter, but I can't resist pointing out a few things: 1. Yes, there's a great deal of symbolism in the books, but where I object to the (predominantly) Christian readings of the books is that most of those symbols are *much* older than Christianity, and at *no* time have those symbols been exclusively Christian. Off-topic digression: 2. You know that Granger is presenting at Nimbus - 2003, right? He's a featured speaker and will be signing his book. 3. His talk is part of a larger track on Saturday of spiritual and moral themes in the books and various groups' reactions to them. Our own Peg Kerr is presenting on her excellent series of Seven Deadly Sins / Seven Heavenly Virtues that she did for HPFGU (yes, right here on this very list!) a while back. Not only that, but Cantor Amy Miller (who is here somewhere) will present on the perspective of Judaism on the books, and John and I will be among several people pointing out the pagan point of view. There are additional panels and also Connie Neal will be speaking as well. Back on-topic: There's a lot of death and rebirth symbolism in the books, true, but again, those symbols (and indeed, the whole idea of resurrected life or reincarnated life) are not exclusively Christian. I think one of the things about the "religious controversy" over the books that is the most intriguing to me is that that controversy comes almost exclusively from the Christian Right Wing. It's telling, I think, to see that nearly every other denomination and path, even within Christianity, really doesn't seem to have too much of an issue with the books. Certainly, there are folks here who can attest that as devout Christians, they were originally "told" not to read these evil things and then they said, "What the heck?" and went and read them anyway... and, well, they're here, so that should tell you something. As a pagan, I myself rolled a baleful eye at the stereotypical pop- culture witchcraft demonstrated in PS/SS. But I got past it very quickly, realizing that it was just the platform she had used to build upon the myths we already have in our gestalt. Given the way she interweaves the wizarding world with that of the Muggles, it makes perfect sense to draw upon the *mis*conceptions of witches and wizards throughout the ages, in order to then turn those stereotypes on their ears. Not to mention a little bit of "factual" basis for the old wives' tales. Beyond that, though, I have read Granger, and I have read Bridger, and I think Bridger's far, far closer to the truth of the matter than Granger is. Bridger acknowledges the conservative Christian's plight with Harry Potter, and responds to it with a hearty, "not to fear." Unfortunately from my perspective, he *also* goes on to say that HP opens the door to proselytizing the Word, to which I can only say, "Spare me." But despite that, he still addresses the books *on their own turf* without trying to turn them into something that they are not, in my opinion, meant to be. Because at root, the symbols and the myths that Rowling draws on to paint the world of HP are really the symbols and myths of the fantasy genre. Though she claims never to have really cared for or read much fantasy, she clearly understands the epic equation and so far, HP falls well into line with that paradigm. While we can debate whether fantasy has its roots in Christianity, particularly given the influence in the 20th century of JRR Tolkien, I say that those roots go much, much deeper than just a retelling of the Bible. The oldest known work of literature, The Epic of Gilgamesh, is at heart a tale of death and rebirth. Campbell relies heavily on the archetypes it establishes for his "Hero's Journey." Anyone want to tell me that Sumerians and Estruscans had heard of Jesus or believed he was the son of God? Greek myths. Gilgamesh. The Odyssey. Metamorphoses. The Egyptian pantheon and myths associated with them: Osiris, Anubis, Isis, Ra, etc. The Mabinogion. The legend of Herne the Hunter. Arthurian legend. These works have the same themes and stories as the roots of HP interwoven through them - and they're no less effective. Rowling draws on them as much as she does upon Mediaeval legend, Shakespeare, Scott, Shelley, Dickens, and a host of other cultural and literary resources and references. She deliberately plays on what we *know* - and what we *think* we know. But that doesn't necessarily mean she's writing a Christian parable, just because many of the symbols that are instantly recognizable in fantasy have also been co-opted by Christianity (after all, they have as much right to symbols as the rest of the world). She's telling a story, and that story is set in a genre with conventions, and she's using those conventions to great effect. Like you say, it's one way to look at it. I happen to reject it, but you can see it that way if you want to do. I think, like statistics, symbology is a very woolly science, though - you can make the symbols say nearly anything you want them to do. Trelawney provides evidence enough of that. Gwendolyn Grace (who is really looking forward to 65 presentations on just this sort of thing at Nimbus - 2003!) From dorigen at hotmail.com Tue Apr 22 18:27:05 2003 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 18:27:05 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] wizards and sickness (slightly fanficcy in places) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55884 >Hermione is home for the holidays. >massive snip< Whether you believe in nature or nurture, there is no way Hermione is the child of two stupid parents. Once she fixes her parents' legs, she swears them to secrecy, explains why, and when Grandma calls on the phone all she gets is lots of sympathy. Unless Hermione and her mother can figure a way to do the spell while Grandma is taking a nap some afternoon. Janet Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From Ali at zymurgy.org Tue Apr 22 18:30:00 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 18:30:00 -0000 Subject: The timeline on the DVD *confirms* canon. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55885 Jo Serenadust wrote: >>> I'm not British (although my children were in the British school system for a short time several years ago) but I've always defered to the views of the British members of the fandom on this point. I didn't see the PoA quote as a Flint so much as an imprecise statement by Dumbledore, which is of the type I hear teachers use all the time (ie, speaking of "a class of hyperactive seven year olds" when in fact 3 of them are really eight). It was never serious enough for me to consider an actual Flint. I meant was that the DVD timeline has introduced a potential Flint. If the birthdate had been 1979, then Hermione "fits" into the story as a product of the normal British educational system with its Sept 1 cutoff. Now that it lists the 1980 birth date, it just doesn't fit for me unless we get further information. If JKR gives us some backstory for why Hermione is moved ahead in either a direct interview, or as part of a future book, then I'll be perfectly satisfied. Until then, it's still questionable for me based on JKR's past inconsistencies with dates and numbers. I respond:- This is a me too post - with explanation: JKR has based the Hogwarts school system on the English/Welsh system that she was brought up with. Children start Hogwarts when their Muggle counterparts go to secondary school, they can stay for the same 7 years and the September 1st date corresponds to the start of our school year. We have evidence that Cedric Diggory and (I think) Angelina turn 17 at the start of their 6th year indicating that they are following the Muggle Traditions that JKR has used so extensively - OWL levels: O'Levels, NEWTs: A'Levels. I would agree that this is only circumstantial evidence! Prior to the DVD time line the only canon evidence we had indicating Hermione's birthday was Dumbledore's statement about two 13year old wizards - and again I agree with Jo's explanation for this. It is possible that Hogwarts runs along slightly different lines and it is possible that Hermione is a year ahead - due to her obvious academic talent. However, I do not believe that JKR wrote Hermione as being a year young for her year. This does happen very occasionally in Britain, but when it does, those children stick out like a sore thumb and get adverse attention. We see Hermione being "attacked" for being a know-it-all and for being a Muggle-born, but never for being a year ahead. Are we really to suppose that the Magic Quill not only looks at those born in the academic year under consideration, but also looks ahead to see if any children in the next year *might* be very talented and therefore capable of joining early? I do believe that having the Autumn Equinox as the cut-off point would work, and JKR might try and tell us that Hermione is so brilliant that she did jump a year. What I will not believe (without evidence!) is that JKR thought all this up before she realised that there was a problem with the dates. My impression is that whilst JKR is very pedantic and thorough with regards to some issues, dates and numbers are not amongst them. Thus, whilst I will believe that JKR authorised the DVD timeline and therefore *canonised* Hermione's birthday as later than Harry's, I cannot believe that she thought through all the implications of this particular date when she first wrote it - perhaps Heidi's idea of the Autumn equinox will give her a way out of this potential Flint. Ali From erinellii at yahoo.com Tue Apr 22 18:05:19 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 18:05:19 -0000 Subject: Animagi In-Reply-To: <020a01c308de$a2bcf400$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55886 "Katy Cartee" wrote: > ...did James, Remus and Sirius find nothing suspicious about Peter turning into a rat, since it does in fact seem that they do not control which animal they turn into? I mean, if i were in a group of friends, me and 2 others turned into "noble" animals such as lions, tigers and bears...and then one friend turned into a rat (an animal known for killing babies)...i believe i'd rethink my opinion of that friend! That would certainly speak loads about their true inner character to me. Why did they not keep a closer eye on him after that? I can think of several good reasons. Maybe they thought of his rat as being more akin to a mouse, for one thing. I mean, he was a small, timid, mousey-type boy, right? So it would make more sense to them in that light. For another, wizarding children seem to keep rats as pets fairly frequently, so although we as muggles tend to view rats in a totally negative light, possibly in the WW, the image of a rat has some good connotations as well-- perhaps even of loyalty, who knows? Plus, Peter wasn't the only non-noble animal in the group. Remus was a werewolf, a dangerous dark creature. They had already overcome the predjudice most of the WW shows to werewolves. Were they then going to turn around and accuse another friend of being evil because of an animal form he couldn't control? It would seem pretty hypocritical to do so at that point, I think. And then too, they were actually GLAD that Peter was a rat. He served a useful function. He was the only one small enough to run under the Whomping Willow and press the knot that gave them access to the passageway. Without that, how could they have gotten Remus back into the Shreiking shack each morning? They only other way would have been to turn human and prod it with a stick, not an option when a dangerous werewolf programmed to attack humans was standing right beside you. Possibly they could have taken Remus somewhere else while one of them transformed, but remember, he was more in his right mind when with them, and I think the werewolf would have refused to leave, knowing that there was about to be a human there and wanting to rip him to shreds. And lastly, we only know that a person's animagus form has to do with their personality because JKR told us so in an interview. I can't think of anything in canon that tells us the WW knows this as well. Can anyone else? Erin From gwendolyngrace at yahoo.com Tue Apr 22 18:43:53 2003 From: gwendolyngrace at yahoo.com (gwendolyngrace) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 18:43:53 -0000 Subject: What is Canon? In-Reply-To: <029601c308f5$68c02b20$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55887 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Katy Cartee" wrote: > > The only question i have left on this subject is: will > the 'majority' of HP fans recognize JKR's interviews as "canon" > AFTER the series is complete (whether it be level 2 canon or level > 1, i don't really care)? It seems that most already do consider it > as such, as they use quotes from her to prove or disprove > points/questions/theories. But there seem to be those that refuse > to consider making her words canon. So for those that that applies > to, why not? Hi, all. Well, I do tend to take her interview answers as authoritative, but I don't think I quite make them into gospel. After all, she has said conflicting things in the past. People do. Like whether James was a chaser or a seeker (one was in an interview; the other a movie reference) - which one was correct? Many reject the movie and accept her interview. I know I prefer "chaser" for James. But could she have misspoken? I believe it's possible. For example, I am *forever* getting "keeper" and "seeker" muddled in my mouth. I know which one guards the goalposts, and I know which one catches the Snitch, and I know that Oliver was the keeper for Gryffindor, and I know that Harry is their Seeker... but how many times in my life have I *said* one when I *meant* the other? Lots. I think the reason we tend to listen carefully to what she says is that we know she has filled the world with a lot more detail than we'll probably ever see on the page. We know it's "Lily Evans Potter" although that fact may or may never be "important" in the course of the books. The interviews are frequently a source of information that is valuable - only to the die-hard fan. Moreover, I rather get the sense that, like the recent timeline discovery, when we are thrown a bone of information in an interview, there's a sense of triumph. It's hard to explain, but it's like, "Ooh! She slipped up! She gave something away! Heheheh." Especially with an author who plays her cards as close to the chest as JKR, it's quite an accomplishment to get a direct answer that *tells* us something - even if it's not much of substance. However, I am also guilty of creatively "ignoring" some of the facts that don't sit well with me. Not that I discount them completely, but that I tend to reserve my judgment on whether that tidbit is really real, or really means what we think it means, or exactly what. For example, back before we split off the movie list, there was a thread here about Alan Rickman's thoughts on Snape. He had met with JKR and in subsequent interviews, he said something about Snape's fascination with the Dark Arts. Well, of course, a lot of people felt that his clearly *had* to mean that Snape really did want the DADA job, that it's *not* just a rumour or red herring. After all, the logic went, Alan Rickman had talked to JKR, so obviously she *told* him that Snape is pissed at not getting the job he wants. Well, maybe. But there are still a lot of questions unanswered. Unless we had a minicam in the room where they talked, we *don't* know whether she gave him that or not. There's a lot of different things that could have happened: 1. JKR could have said, definitively: "Snape wants the DADA job." Yes, ma'am, okay. 2. JKR could have said, less committally: "Everyone thinks Snape wants the DADA job." And Rickman could have decided it was true. 3. JKR could have said, conspiratorially: "Everyone thinks Snape wants the DADA job. He really doesn't, but it's important that people think he does, so play that." Rickman followed orders to deliberately mislead us. 4. Rickman could have *asked* about the DADA job and JKR could have said, "It really doesn't matter - he can be after it really or not; your choice." 5. JKR could have said nothing at all about the DADA job. They could have talked exclusively about Snape's more distant past, his childhood, his relationship with his mother, his upcoming role, who knows? But it's entirely possible that she had nothing to do with his character decisions. We went through this with the trading cards, the video game, and the board games - are facts given there canon or not? Did she authorize them? It's still not clear to what extent she controls what we get to hear - either from herself, or from others. So, back to the point... ah, yes. Knew it was here somewhere. JKR is very tricky, and I think sometimes either when we don't like what she says or we're not sure what she means, some folks tend to be more cynical than believing, expecting her to somehow turn it around like she does with her plots. So it's a "We'll wait and see how things play out." It's just that that way, we get to select when we believe her and when we don't. :^D Gwendolyn Grace From gwendolyngrace at yahoo.com Tue Apr 22 18:55:41 2003 From: gwendolyngrace at yahoo.com (gwendolyngrace) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 18:55:41 -0000 Subject: The timeline on the DVD *confirms* canon. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55888 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" wrote: > > > My impression is that whilst JKR is very pedantic and thorough with > regards to some issues, dates and numbers are not amongst them. > Thus, whilst I will believe that JKR authorised the DVD timeline and > therefore *canonised* Hermione's birthday as later than Harry's, I > cannot believe that she thought through all the implications of this > particular date when she first wrote it - perhaps Heidi's idea of > the Autumn equinox will give her a way out of this potential Flint. > I definitely agree that dates and numbers are not her strong suit. However, what's wrong with a "school year" cutoff? Say that Professor McGonagall consults the rolls in early spring of the current school year. Any witches or wizards who will be turning 11 *at any time* between the end of the current term and the end of the *next* school year get their letter that summer? Okay, so for some Muggle-educated kids, this may mean that they will have already started at a secondary school before they switch to Hogwarts. So? I'm sure it's not unheard of for people to change schools even a year after starting. Usually it's because of moving, but I would think there are many times where the parents and teachers feel a student will perform better in a different setting. So they pull the child out of the school where they've just spent a year and next term pop them in elsewhere. Or is that completely forbidden in English schools? Once you start somewhere, that's it, unless your family moves to a different jurisdiction? By that logic, Ron was born in 1981, which makes him younger than the other two, which IMO does make sense. So if the end of term is around June, then there'd be a roughly June/July cutoff, and all the kids in a given first-year will celebrate their 11th birthdays through the course of that year. Gwendolyn Grace From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Tue Apr 22 20:21:10 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 16:21:10 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What is Canon? References: Message-ID: <032101c3090c$b781cae0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55889 Gwendolyn Grace said: > Well, I do tend to take her interview answers as authoritative, but I > don't think I quite make them into gospel. After all, she has said > conflicting things in the past. People do. As i've stated before...i'm only talking about the things she's said that did NOT contradict anything else...and i'm only talking about putting them down "as canon" AFTER the series is complete. > Like whether James was a > chaser or a seeker (one was in an interview; the other a movie > reference) - which one was correct? Many reject the movie and accept > her interview. I know I prefer "chaser" for James. If it's never said one way or the other in the next two books, then i would say that James being a chaser is canon fact. Because JKR said it and her word is much more reliable than what was put in the movies. Does anyone disagree with that? > But could she have > misspoken? I believe it's possible. For example, I am *forever* > getting "keeper" and "seeker" muddled in my mouth. I know which one > guards the goalposts, and I know which one catches the Snitch, and I > know that Oliver was the keeper for Gryffindor, and I know that Harry > is their Seeker... but how many times in my life have I *said* one > when I *meant* the other? Lots. But you didn't create the game, the rules, the objects or the names of the objects. She could still misspeak, sure. But it's much less likely for HER to misspeak than for us to, seeing as that she breathed the words into existence. > I think the reason we tend to listen carefully to what she says is > that we know she has filled the world with a lot more detail than > we'll probably ever see on the page. We know it's "Lily Evans Potter" > although that fact may or may never be "important" in the course of > the books. The interviews are frequently a source of information that > is valuable - only to the die-hard fan. Well we are a list of die-hard fans, so that's the angle i'm coming from. If Lily's maiden name is never mentioned in the next 2 books, what good reason would there be to NOT put Evans down as canon fact? > However, I am also guilty of creatively "ignoring" some of the facts > that don't sit well with me. Not that I discount them completely, but > that I tend to reserve my judgment on whether that tidbit is really > real, or really means what we think it means, or exactly what. Well i can understand your hesitation 'at this time.' But if AFTER the series is complete, i don't like the name Evans because my ex-boyfriend's last name was Evans, and i just 'don't want to accept it' as true...then that's tough cookies for me. Because 'at that point in time' i would say that Evans is "canon fact." > We went through this with the trading cards, the video game, and the > board games - are facts given there canon or not? Did she authorize > them? It's still not clear to what extent she controls what we get to > hear - either from herself, or from others. AS I HAVE SAID BEFORE, i no longer believe that the games/other merchandise should be considered canon at any point in time, because JKR did not personally write them. But if something comes straight out of her mouth, she has complete control over that - so i believe it should be considered canon at a later time. Why should it not? > So, back to the point... ah, yes. Knew it was here somewhere. JKR is > very tricky, and I think sometimes either when we don't like what she > says or we're not sure what she means, some folks tend to be more > cynical than believing, expecting her to somehow turn it around like > she does with her plots. So it's a "We'll wait and see how things > play out." It's just that that way, we get to select when we believe > her and when we don't. :^D I agree that RIGHT NOW we get to select what we believe and what we do not believe. But the point i'm trying to make is, AFTER THE SERIES IS COMPLETE...i think that needs more emphasis.. AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER the series is complete, is there any good reason that we should NOT take her spoken words (all of the ones that do NOT contradict anything else) as canon fact? THAT is what i want to know. It seems like it would be a good idea to establish some kind of "canon rule" for the HP fandom now, so that it doesn't get confused later on, when even more merchandise is released and more interviews are given. ~Katy~ ..who is sorry for all the caps, but REALLY hates having to repeat herself.. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Tue Apr 22 20:32:31 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 20:32:31 -0000 Subject: A Simple Spell (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55890 A Simple Spell (GoF, Chap. 19) To the tune of Simple Gifts Dedicated to Ginger The original is an old Shaker hymn ? it's best remembered today for Aaron Copland's quotation of the melody at the end of his 1943 ballet Appalachian Spring (Copland used the song itself in his set of 12 "Old American Songs" of 1950). Copland treats the tune contrapuntally, as does, very fortunately, this MIDI.... http://www.geocities.com/onahoofandawing/simplegifts.htm ....so I imagine HARRY singing his somewhat different lines along with SIRIUS, just a couple of beats behind THE SCENE: The Gryffindor Common Room, 1 a.m. SIRIUS, from the fireside, is about to tell HARRY how to deal with the First Task dragons SIRIUS (spoken) But you can do it alone There is a way and a simple spell's all you need .. (music) 'Tis a spell that is simple, 'Tis a spell you can learn "Tis a spell that will save You from dragon burn And when you find yourself With the First Task prize, It will be `cause we outfoxed The bad DE guys Don't try To cast a Stunning Spell, 'Gainst dragon magic It will not work too well But flee, flee, You hear someone come: For by fleeing, fleeing I'll escape MOM HARRY (he sings his lines just a couple of beats behind SIRIUS) 'Tis a spell that is simple, 'Tis a spell I'll select `Tis a spell to help save My young scrawny neck And when I find myself With the First Task prize, It will be `cause my godpa Outfoxed the bad guys Won't try To cast a Stunning Spell, 'Gainst dragon magic It will not work too well But fly, fly! You've got to move on! It is nearing, nearing - That lousy Ron! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From dracodemoiselle at yahoo.com Tue Apr 22 19:39:08 2003 From: dracodemoiselle at yahoo.com (Draco Demoiselle) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 12:39:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Redeemed!Draco and the Loss of a Bully Message-ID: <20030422193908.8124.qmail@web20503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55891 Greicy writes, regarding the loss of a bully in the Redeemed!Draco scenario: ::Hey maybe some other bully will rise from the masses?:: We don't have any proof that there aren't already plenty of bullies in Hogwarts. Harry is particularly harrassed by Draco Malfoy, and therefore Draco appears to be the biggest git around. I would suggest that Draco as the ultimate bully is but a product of Harry's POV. From the beginning Harry marks Draco as a stand in for Dudley Dursley. He dislikes him from the start -- and therefore Draco's actions are interpreted by the reader as just that much worse than the actions of any other schoolyard bullies. In a school, there are all levels of cruelty, and Harry experiences it several times when the entire school community turns against him. Think of when he loses all those points for Gryffindor in PS. Think of when the whole school turns against him in CS when they think he's Heir of Slytherin. Even Harry's friends are not exempt from being bullies. Ron's remarks about Hermione in PS are outright nasty. He doesn't take care to keep her from hearing them. To Hermione, if the Troll hadn't happened, Ron could have been as big a bully as Draco is to Harry. And it doesn't end then. He's a total clod to Hermione in GF at the Yule Ball -- and she's his friend! Perhaps he has feelings for her and feels rejected, but it doesn't make his behavior acceptable. Ron's declarations about Slytherins and certain families (Malfoy) are just as insulting and prejudiced as Draco's insinuations about Muggle-borns. Perhaps he doesn't use a word as nasty as Mudblood. But that's just because we don't know of any equally insulting. I'm sure Ron would use it on Malfoy if it existed! Our heros are not beyond reproach. In PS, on the train, Harry and Ron as a team gang up on Draco Malfoy. Malfoy doesn't insult anyone until after Ron laughs at Draco's name. Harry's insinuation about Draco being the wrong kind of wizard is hurtful in the extreme -- and public. How many other times in his life do you suppose Draco Malfoy tried publically to make a friend, and been humiliated in return? I don't think Draco Malfoy, as it is, is merely a misunderstood little boy. I think he is a mean and angry child who strikes out at others whenever he is made uncomfortable. He seems unable to take responsibility for himself. But he is not the worst of the worst. His actions are fairly harmless . . . in fact, I'd put forth my own belief that the worst of schoolyard bullies are not the Talkers, like Malfoy . . . but the mass of Crabbes and Goyles and Pansys who laugh and silently support the bully. They are the ones who give bullies power. I hope in future books, Harry becomes more sophisticated in recognizing and judging others. And I hope that readers can seperate Harry's POV from The Truth. If Draco is redeemed, the Hogwarts will not be short of bullies. Part of growing up is recognizing the gray shades in between good and bad, kind and cruel. I personally think Evil!Draco sells the series short, and will stunt Harry (and the reader's) development. Not everyone is sociopath-Tom Riddle. I had a Draco Malfoy when I was in school, who hated me because I was just that much more liked than she was (we were both social outsiders). She made my life hell, and tried to force people to turn against me, much as Draco did -- as if my suffering would make her social situation better. When she turned 15, she realized how much she made herself suffer by her nastiness. She was a very angry young woman. But she stopped me in the hall one day, and apologized for her behavior during the previous four years. I forgive her, and since we have become friends. And since she stopped defining herself by cutting down others, her anger has subsided, and she's a really decent young woman now. ...End of Draco Post... ...Start of Introduction... While I'm writing, I might as well introduce myself. This is my first post on any Harry Potter discussion list. I'm 23, a recent graduate of college, and I live in New York City where I work in theatre. I'd love to meet people through this forum. Please feel free to drop me an email! Very Truly DracoDemoiselle... __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From noybycb at yahoo.ca Tue Apr 22 20:14:03 2003 From: noybycb at yahoo.ca (Alia) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 20:14:03 -0000 Subject: The timeline on the DVD *confirms* canon. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55892 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gwendolyngrace" wrote: > I definitely agree that dates and numbers are not her strong suit. > > However, what's wrong with a "school year" cutoff? > > Say that Professor McGonagall consults the rolls in early spring of > the current school year. Any witches or wizards who will be turning > 11 *at any time* between the end of the current term and the end of > the *next* school year get their letter that summer? > > Okay, so for some Muggle-educated kids, this may mean that they will > have already started at a secondary school before they switch to > Hogwarts. So? I'm sure it's not unheard of for people to change > schools even a year after starting. Usually it's because of moving, > but I would think there are many times where the parents and teachers > feel a student will perform better in a different setting. So they > pull the child out of the school where they've just spent a year and > next term pop them in elsewhere. Or is that completely forbidden in > English schools? Once you start somewhere, that's it, unless your > family moves to a different jurisdiction? > > By that logic, Ron was born in 1981, which makes him younger than the > other two, which IMO does make sense. > > So if the end of term is around June, then there'd be a roughly > June/July cutoff, and all the kids in a given first-year will > celebrate their 11th birthdays through the course of that year. > > Gwendolyn Grace Here's a thought - When I started school, if you were going to be of age by the end of the calendar year you could start. So if the age is 11 for Hogwarts, then one must turn 11 by the end of December to start in September. I have heard of other schools having the cutoff as the end of September. If this is so, then Ron, Harry and Hermione would all have been born in 1980 with Ron's birthday being the earliest, and Hermione turning 11 during the first month of school. Another thought - as it's for high school, it could be that 11 just is the average age. So, if a student had advanced faster through primary school, he/she would start Hogwarts whenever they would have been going to high school. Personally, I think it is the first option and that all three were born in the same year. Cheers, Alia From Zarleycat at aol.com Tue Apr 22 20:43:10 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 20:43:10 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Scabbers, was Re: Worried about Hermione/others In-Reply-To: <149710488.20030422095733@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55893 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susanne wrote: > > > Maybe I should start looking into the Evil!Dumbledore > theories ;) > What name is that going under again? > > Or are there any IrresponsibleFool!Dumbledore theories out > there? > > Maybe he's just really sure Pettigrew didn't ever attempt to > change back to human form during his time at the Weasleys or > at Hogwarts, for some reason? > > Why would it have mattered whether or not Peter attempted to change back to human form while at the Weasleys? If he did, obviously Molly never saw it happen or never came across a strange man roaming around the house. So, Dumbledore may have assumed that Peter remained in his rat form. And, after PoA, he's gone off to Voldemort, and Ron knows who he is, so chances are Peter's not going to go back to the Weasleys. If the question now is why didn't Dumbledore ever tell Molly and Arthur, "Oh, by the way, Scabbers was an Animagus.." my take would be that he didn't want to have to explain how he knew that, and then have to answer the Weasley parents' questions - "How do you know that, Albus?" "Who is he?" "Why did he live with us as a rat for 12 years?" Maybe this is evidence of Dumbledore the Manipulator, or maybe it's Dumbledore trying to protect Sirius. After all, saying Scabbers is Peter Pettigrew inevitably would lead to questions about Sirius, and maybe Dumbledore figured it would be best to keep that quiet until such time as Peter can be presented alive to the authorities as proof of Sirius' innocence. Plus, since everyone is so convinced of Sirius' guilt, this whole Peter-as-Animagus story sounds like a fairy tale. Unless you have the man/rat right in front of you as proof. Marianne From william.truderung at sympatico.ca Tue Apr 22 20:44:25 2003 From: william.truderung at sympatico.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 20:44:25 -0000 Subject: The timeline on the DVD *confirms* canon. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55894 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gwendolyngrace" wrote: So if the end of term is around June, then there'd be a roughly June/July cutoff, and all the kids in a given first-year will celebrate their 11th birthdays through the course of that year. Gwendolyn Grace Me: Actually, 6th-year Cedric Diggory turned 17 sometime before placing his name in the Goblet of Fire, which spit it out on Oct 31. So if Hermione does in fact turn 12 in CoS, then the cut-off date must lie between Sep 18 and Oct 31. Bill From erinellii at yahoo.com Tue Apr 22 18:34:13 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 18:34:13 -0000 Subject: wizards and sickness (slightly fanficcy in places) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55895 "Janet Anderson" wrote: > Whether you believe in nature or nurture, there is no way Hermione is the child of two stupid parents. > > Once she fixes her parents' legs, she swears them to secrecy, explains why, and when Grandma calls on the phone all she gets is lots of sympathy. Unless Hermione and her mother can figure a way to do the spell while Grandma is taking a nap some afternoon. Me: Now if Hermione is really that smart, she'll fix her dad's leg, then Memory-charm him into forgetting he fell off the ladder at all. Erin From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Tue Apr 22 20:50:16 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 20:50:16 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore had a number of useful spies In-Reply-To: <20030422061918.41387.qmail@web20514.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55896 galadriel1 at m... writes: In Chapter 10, The Marauder's Map, a number of faculty are discussing James and Sirius' relationship in Hogwarts days and the secret - keeper that Lily and James chose. Fudge states, "Dumbledore, who was working tirelessly against You Know Who, had a number of useful spies. One of them tipped him off, and he alerted James and Lily at once." JessaDrow at a... wrote: Lupin would be my guess, even though Black didn't trust him, James and/or Lily may have. Rosebeth wrote: As much as I like Lupin and would want him to have a herioc role. I have to ask, how would Lupin know what LV was planning? IMHO, Snape is the best guess because he would have access to LV's plans. Now me: In addition, it is clear in PoA that Lupin was in fact out of the loop. I'm still interested in learning what he was really up to during that time, as he seems to have become disconnected enough from the others (Lily, James, Peter, Sirius) for him to be considered a viable suspect for traitor. Many werewolves were said to be turning to Voldemort, and while it could have been Peter who put this into the others' heads in order to throw suspicion off himself, the other three may also have thought of this themselves, without any prompting from Peter, the actual traitor (which would have made Peter rub his hands gleefully, no doubt). Perhaps he was working with the originator of the Wolfsbane Potion, to try to perfect the concoction? (You need a guinea pig for these things.) Who knows? We do know, however, that Snape was in fact working as a spy for Dumbledore. Regardless of his motivation for telling him of the plot against the Potters (and whoever it was, they weren't THAT much in the know, as the spy didn't know the identity of the traitor), it seems most likely to have been Snape, until we find out more about these shadowy 'spies.' Other possibilities are somewhat slim at this point. There's Mundungus Fletcher, spoken of as part of the 'old crowd' (which could mean anything, but it does remind one of "Smiley's People"--or at least it reminds me of that), plus Arabella Figg. The interesting thing about these people is that what little information we have about them means that they are every bit as disreputable as Snape, the scourge of non-Slytherins since he took his teaching post. Fletcher, we find out near the beginning of GoF, was trying to put in a ridiculous claim for an elaborate tent damaged during the QWC, despite the fact that Arthur saw him sleeping under his cloak propped up on sticks. JKR said something like "well-spotted!" to someone who asked whether Arabella is the same as Mrs. Figg and everything we know about Mrs. Figg paints her as an extremely unpleasant person (although how much of that was for the Dursleys' benefit, as they certainly wouldn't want someone PLEASANT taking care of Harry, remains to be seen). I will rashly predict that each and every one of Dumbledore's spies will prove to have either an abrasive personality and/or a checkered past, as do the above (Snape, Fletcher, Figg). It would be entirely fitting for people like this to be fighting for the good guys, and bring us back to JKR's original message of choices being the important thing, which is something I hope SHE doesn't forget. --Barb (Who also hopes that Fletcher and/or Figg turn out to have been Slytherins--although a Hufflepuff wouldn't come amiss!) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From starropal at hotmail.com Tue Apr 22 20:51:47 2003 From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 15:51:47 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Truth, SHIPs, and Rita Skeeter (was Re: SHIPping Attitudes) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55897 As to the Rita Skeeter articles... I wonder if anyone will look into the fact that Rita is missing. Isn't it possible for the Wizarding World to jump to conclusions? "Maybe that disturbed Harry Potter did something to her! Probably did her in just like that poor Diggory boy." Kia wrote: >I worry about Hermione a lot. In the inter-trio ship debates I >sometimes wonder what we all will do, if Hermione is pushing >up the daisies by the end of Book Six. Okay, this may be considered too angsty, but its an idea I've gotten while reading various SHIP post. -What If- Harry and Ron fought because of Hermione (Not necessarily a triangle scenario, but because, for instance, R/Hr made Harry feel left out and they had a falling out over it). Then Hermione (gosh I hope not) dies, bringing the two friends back together. Thus giving Hermione's theoretical death the function of fixing the rift that may potentially be carried over and growing from GoF through 6. Nothing to back it up, just wondering "out loud." >(To quote a >Luc Besson movie - "No women. No children. That's the rules.") Tattooed "Veritas" "Aequitas" mean anything to you, Kia? Star Opal "Constant Vigilance!" _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From meboriqua at aol.com Tue Apr 22 21:00:30 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 21:00:30 -0000 Subject: Prefects who gain power In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55898 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kira November" wrote: > Also, given the attitude of the Malfoys towards the Weasleys, Percy may want to excel, and excel publically, to show just what a Weasley can be. Ron's opinion to the contrary, I don't think Percy would sell out any member of his family for personal gain, since I don't think he sees it as truly 'personal' gain.> You know, that makes me think about Ron and how he and Percy really are similar in certain ways. It makes sense that Percy wants to show people how great a Weasley he can be. We've seen that he gets embarrassed of his family just like Ron (remember when Fred and George marched him over to eat Christmas dinner with the rest of them?). Ron is very quick to get upset over what his family *doesn't* have and it's possible Percy feels the same way and is an overachiever to make up for it. --jenny from ravenclaw, who also remembers how great it was to find HPFGrownups ************************************* From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Tue Apr 22 20:56:45 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 20:56:45 -0000 Subject: What is Canon? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55899 Katy wrote: >I agree that RIGHT NOW we get to select what we believe and what we >do not believe. But the point i'm trying to make is, AFTER THE >SERIES IS COMPLETE...i think that needs more emphasis.. > >AFTER the series is complete, is there any good reason that we >should NOT take her spoken words (all of the ones that do NOT >contradict anything else) as canon fact? THAT is what i want to know. Me: I don't think that there is a good reason not to do that, but maybe there's someone more creative than I am. Personally, I tend to view her interviews as canon even now, but only if her statements a) don't contradict the books, either directly or indirectly (such as the '1000 people at Hogwarts' quote - that's difficult to reconcile with canon) b) are not subject to various interpretations. FOr example, if she says that Lily was nee Evans, I don't see a reason not to believe her. If she says that Harry and Hermione don't have a date and that they're 'very platonic friends,' I take it into consideration, but never use it as a final argument. The same goes for 'Everyone is in love with the wrong people.' What does she mean, 'in love?' Or 'everyone?' c) are either just that - statements, or answers to specific, well- framed questions. The question 'Do Harry and Hermione have a date' was just plain dumb, and didn't deserve any sort of coherent answer, even if JKR were, for some strange reason, tempted to answer it in full. I guess that's it... maybe I'm missing something. I think that AFTER the series is complete, *and* it becomes obvious that the Potterverse will not be expanded by new books, either by "Hogwarts, a History," which I, personally, am dying to see, or by some sort of MWPP adventures, or something else that would definitely be fun to read about, we should still have a right not to accept the kinds of statements that don't fit a-c. And NOW, I don't see the reason why we can't accept the interviews as canon... as long, as Gwen said, we take them with a grain of salt. >It seems like it would be a good idea to establish some kind >of "canon rule" for the HP fandom now, so that it doesn't get >confused later on, when even more merchandise is released and more >interviews are given. Well... such a rule would attempt to control what people think, so it's doomed to failure anyway. Most people, forgive me the generalization, tend to view interviews and the schoolbooks as canon, and also enjoy picking out mistakes and canon contradictions in the movies, so I doubt that there will be any problems... See how fast you've been converted? Maria, surprised to find herself in a pretty good mood From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Tue Apr 22 21:14:24 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 21:14:24 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Scabbers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55900 Marianne asked: >Why would it have mattered whether or not Peter attempted to change >back to human form while at the Weasleys? If he did, obviously >Molly never saw it happen or never came across a strange man roaming >around the house. So, Dumbledore may have assumed that Peter >remained in his rat form. And, after PoA, he's gone off to >Voldemort, and Ron knows ho he is, so chances are Peter's not going >to go back to the Weasleys. Because there is a theory (can someone clarify *what*, exactly, it is?) that Peter Pettigrew did not, in fact, transform when nobody was around, but transformed in the middle of the night, when everybody was asleep, and either Imperio'd the children, or just had meaningful talks with them about good and evil, namely, about the absence of a distiction between them. In brief, messed with their minds. Or something. I don't believe in this for a moment, but *it's possible*. But anyway, the fact remains that for 13 years, a *Death Eater*, who was responsible for a most atrocious murder, was Percy's and Ron's *pet*. That's something parents should know about, don't you think? Does that answer your question? What interests me more is whether Hermione's parents knew that she was Petrified in CoS. >Maybe this is evidence of Dumbledore the Manipulator, or maybe it's >Dumbledore trying to protect Sirius. After all, saying Scabbers is >Peter Pettigrew inevitably would lead to questions about Sirius, and >maybe Dumbledore figured it would be best to keep that quiet until >such time as Peter can be presented alive to the authorities as >proof >of Sirius' innocence. Plus, since everyone is so convinced of >Sirius' >guilt, this whole Peter-as-Animagus story sounds like a fairy tale. >Unless you have the man/rat right in front of you as proof. Well, I'm inclined to think that Molly and Arthur would have believed Dumbledore, had he told them the whole story. Molly Weasley certainly seemed OK with Sirius at the end of GoF, although he gave her a nasty shock at first. I wonder what other uses Molly's potato-peeling spell has... Maria From heidit at netbox.com Tue Apr 22 21:08:37 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (heidi) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 14:08:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Some FF: Dumbledore and Scabbers, was Re: Worried about Hermione/others In-Reply-To: <149710488.20030422095733@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20030422210837.13149.qmail@web80505.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55901 --- Susanne wrote: > Maybe he's just really sure Pettigrew didn't ever > attempt to > change back to human form during his time at the > Weasleys or > at Hogwarts, for some reason? I can't see how sure of that he can be, given that there is some canon support for the argument that Pettigrew not only turned back into a wizard on occasion, he also spoke (i.e. possibly said spells, etc). That canon support is in PoA, when he's changed back into a wizard and his voice is not unused-sounding, but high and squeaky and not particularly unusual in its speech patterns and pauses, like Harry notes Sirius' is. Further, there is canon evidence that Pettigrew spent three to four years in the Weasley household before Percy took him off to school (again, PoA, Ron's speech in the Shack), and of course, even while Percy was at school, Peter likely summered at the Weasleys (as we know from CoS that students do not stay at Hogwarts for the summer). Thus, Peter spent a considerable amount of time in a house with access to wands, wands which nobody would think to conceal from a rat - even before Percy had one, Molly and Arthur did. So it's possible to engage in only a tiny bit of "connecting the dots" to conclude that Peter was able to learn a lot about the Weasley family... and more frightening than that, Peter did have opportunities aplenty to put spells on members of the family that he could take advantage of if he needed to do so later. Have you ever seen The Manchurian Candidate? Would it be so farfetched to conclude that Peter did something similar to Ron or to Percy? I once wrote a smidge of fanfic about this (http://www.livejournal.com/users/heidi8/47382.html), and am pasting a bit of it here: The inquisitor goggled at the words spilling from the Gryffindor's mouth. Harry Potter's best friend, this child was, and he'd been seeking out Death Eaters? And not just to spy on them either? He gulped and tried a new question - one he'd asked many times at Death Eater Induction Ceremonies, but had never before asked a prisoner. "So, when did you first realise that you were evil?" "Well, my brother Percy got this rat when he was about six years old - maybe a little younger. I was almost two then, so I don't really remember, but Percy told me recently that the Rat, Scabbers, used to follow me around all the time. And as long as I could remember, this man would come to me in my dreams - at least, then, I thought I was dreaming - and talk to me about power and money and all the wonderful things I deserved to have. He used a wand to conjure up wonderful images for me - it was only later that I learned that he'd been taking my parents' wands in the evenings and putting them back before they woke." The prisoner's eyes got a little misty at this point, and the Death Eater himself felt a twinge of nostalgia at the boy's story. The boy went on, talking about how he'd reaslied after his third year at Hogwarts that the man and the rat were one and the same, and that the things the man had said to him in his dreams were all things the man - Pettigrew, who the Death Eater knew as the Dark Lord's left hand - wanted him to do for his own reasons. He didn't really remember the dreams themselves during his waking hours, but the things the man had said to him stayed with him constantly. He didn't see the man while his brother was at school, although he didn't make the connection then, but during the summers, especially the year before he started Hogwarts, Ron had learned through the dreams that he should befriend Harry Potter when he got to Hogwarts, as they would be in the same year - that he should not fight with him, but rather support him in everything, and they'd be good friends. During his first year, the man was at Hogwarts with him and said that it was very important that he help Harry get to the Philosopher's Stone. "After I learned that Scabbers was an animagus, I didn't want to remember anything he'd said to me, even though I knew rationally that it made sense - that the Dark Lord was powerful and would be victorious, things like that. But like I said, nobody belived me - not even Scabbers - I mean Wormtail. I sent him a letter and he owled me back and accused me of being a spy. He never realised how successful his teaching of me was! And it was great - he was absolutely right, too. I want power and success and I hate being poor, and I think you guys are the right people to help me get it! Can you untie me now?" I also want to note that not only am I on record *here* in HPfGU for my arguments that Pettigrew's knowledge of the Weasley family and home is a potential risk/problem for the Good Guys, I'm now on record in BOOK Magazine's May/June issue (you can see my quote here: http://www.livejournal.com/~heidi8/143193.html) as saying... <> ===== heidi tandy They say its a sign of mental health to hold apparently contradictory ideas in your mind. The world of late has been a particularly exotic stew of horror and beauty. There are killers, there are saints. The trick is to find the right spot on the spectrum between abject despair and total obliviousness. And then carry on... Joel Achenbach From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 22 21:34:43 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 21:34:43 -0000 Subject: The Characters of Arabella and Mundungus (WAS: Dumbledore's useful spies) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55902 Barb wrote: > Fletcher, we find out near the beginning of GoF, was trying to put > in a ridiculous claim for an elaborate tent damaged during the QWC, > despite the fact that Arthur saw him sleeping under his cloak > propped up on sticks. Now me: Not to mention that he tried to hex Arthur Weasley when he had his back turned in Ch. 3 of CoS. (btw, it's actually *Percy* who says in Ch. 10 of GoF "I know for a fact he [Mundungus] was sleeping under a cloak propped on sticks.") Barb again: > JKR said something like "well-spotted!" to someone who asked > whether Arabella is the same as Mrs. Figg and everything we know > about Mrs. Figg paints her as an extremely unpleasant person > (although how much of that was for the Dursleys' benefit, as they > certainly wouldn't want someone PLEASANT taking care of Harry, > remains to be seen). Me again: While Harry dislikes being dumped at Mrs. Figg's house while Dudley gets to go and have fun, I never got the impression that Mrs. Figg herself is an unpleasant person. Harry thinks of her as a "mad old lady" whose house smells of cabbage and who makes him look at cat pictures, but IIRC she doesn't submit him to any physical or emotional abuse. So while she's obviously not the most enjoyable companion an 11 year old boy might want and is obviously very peculiar, I don't think of her as an unpleasant person. ~Phyllis From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Apr 22 21:54:42 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 21:54:42 -0000 Subject: wizards and sickness (slightly fanficcy in places) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55903 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "erinellii" wrote: > "Janet Anderson" wrote: > > Whether you believe in nature or nurture, there is no way Hermione > is the child of two stupid parents. > > > > Once she fixes her parents' legs, she swears them to secrecy, > explains why, and when Grandma calls on the phone all she gets is > lots of sympathy. Unless Hermione and her mother can figure a way to > do the spell while Grandma is taking a nap some afternoon. > > > Me: > Now if Hermione is really that smart, she'll fix her dad's leg, > then Memory-charm him into forgetting he fell off the ladder at all. > > Erin bboy_mn: Let's keep in mind that he mandate the muggle born witches and wizards are working against is intended to keep the wizard world a secret. Hermione's parents know about the wizard world; they've been there! So there is no need to keep magic a secret from them. They know Hermione is a witch and if it wasn't for the Reasonable Restriction of Underage Wizardry, she would probably be doing magic all the time. And one would logically assume if Hermoine's parent know she is a witch, they know that they are forbidden to reveal magic and the magic world to other muggles. So if Mr. Granger fell and hurt himself, Hermione's hesitance to help would be related to restrictions against underage wizardry, and if she could justify the use of magic under the circumstancs, I'm sure she would help. However, she would have to be EXTREMELY careful about helping anyone who didn't already know about the wizard world. Do wizards intervene in the muggle world? Of course they do, we see magical/miracle cures all the time in the real world. People dying of cancer who should be dead in a month who are instead cured in a week. Who's to say, that they weren't anonymously cured by a near by wizard or witch. As long as the miracle magic they perform is done in a way the doesn't reveal the existance of the wizard world, I think they do help. But, I also think that for the most part they try to stay our of muggle world affairs. If they constantly override the consequences of muggle choices then muggles will never have to live with the consequences of their choices and will never learn from them. If you jump out of an airplane without a parachute and live due to the intervention of a wizard, you are likely to think you can do it again. Part of life in the wizard and muggle world is that, like it or not, you are stuck living with the choices you make. Seemingly off on an unrelated subject, how many people are fans of the TV show "Third Rock from the Sun". What is it that the alien Solomons are most worried about? They are worried that if the earth people find out who they are, the government will come for them, take them away, and dissect them for science experiments. I think the discover of the wizard world would follow roughtly the same line. Scientists would want to dissect and study them to find out what made them 'tick'. The religious world would balk at this seeming challenge to their authority and rule of the masses, and would demonize them and try to convince the masses that they were the devil himself come to destroy the world, others would worship them as gods, others would clamor for the wizards to solve every problem while the muggles themselves accepted no responsibility for creating thosse problems, and others who are so insecure that they couldn't bear the thought that they themselves might be the lowest creatures on earth, would blame them for every ill of mankind would kill them. No, if I was a wizard and I hoped to live along and healthy life, I think it would be best if the muggle world knew as little as possible about my magical existance. just a thought. bboy_mn From susannahlm at yahoo.com Tue Apr 22 22:23:09 2003 From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (derannimer) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 22:23:09 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Avery/Rita. No, not like that. Please. Contains itty-bitty OOP reference. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55904 Derannimer pushes open the old oak doors to the Royal George and looks around. The place is largely empty today--most of the captains are preparing for the hurricane. Darn. She'd been hoping to find someone who'd buy her a drink, as she's already spent her own ridiculously small week's wages. George is standing behind the bar, polishing glasses and casting the occasional dark look towards a small table in one corner. Who. . . ? Oh. Avery. Well, his money is presumably as good as the next guy's. Derannimer walks into the Tavern, letting the door swing shut behind her. She realizes that she's never actually met Avery--which might make it a little harder to get a drink out of him--but it might be it might be interesting to have a talk with him. He is, after all, practically a legend. Funny. She wouldn't have expected a legend to shrink so into the woodwork at the approach of a harmless theorist. She has approached the table now. "Mr Avery?" Derannimer tries very hard to sound her most harmless. "Would you please--that, is, do you mind if I. . . " it's very hard to prise a drink out of someone whose eyes begin nervously sweeping around the room the minute you start talking. It just makes you lose heart, somehow. It isn't like she wasn't going to pay him *back.* Derannimer abruptly changes her plans. The poor thing just looks terrified. It would be very interesting to know why. "D'you mind if I sit here with you?" As Avery is still simply staring at her in stark horror, she doesn't bother waiting for an answer, but simply sits across the table from him. "I've been wanting to have a talk with you for ever so," she adds, and feels a little horrified herself to realise that she is cooing. She never *coos.* Also lying, apparently, as she had initially just wanted to wangle a drink out of him. But maybe cooing at him will make him a little less apprehensive. Right now he seems to be staring at her. . . baseball cap?. . . in a state of the utmost fear. Right then. Coo away. "You see, I've heard *so *much** about you, and when it turned out that--Avery," she says, giving up. "Is there something wrong? Because you seem to be a little distressed." Avery takes a quick swig at his drink, sets the glass back down on the table top--a little too hard--shudders slightly, and fixes her with his eye again, in a manner that suggests that he truly fears looking at her but truly fears *not* looking at her even more than that. And he is definitely staring at her baseball cap. At this moment Derannimer remembers three things. She has never seen Avery without Elkins before. Avery lives in mortal fear of Captain Cindy. Understandably, given that she's always trying to drown him. And her baseball cap has "BANG!" written across it in bright red letters. "Oh," she says, realising. "Oh, Avery, I'm sorry." She takes her cap off and sets it on the floor. "I'm sorry. I'm not here to try and k-- do you any harm, or anything like that." Avery appears to relax very slightly. Derannimer really feels quite guilty. "As a matter of fact," she says, 'fessing up, "I wanted to see if you'd stand me a drink. That's why I came over. I'll pay you back," she adds quickly, but there apparently isn't any need for that. Avery--doubtless relieved to discover that she isn't some crewman sent to assassinate him on the Captain's orders--has already reached into his pocket and fished out a couple of Sickles. Derannimer takes one of them--a glass of milk doesn't cost much here--smiles gratefully, and walks over to the bar. George appears before her almost instantly. "Derannimer! The usual?" "Yes please." She slides the Sickle onto the highly polished counter. Silver reflects in bright mahogany. "Not very busy today, are you?" "No," says George, sounding a little down. "No, everyone's taking care of their ships." He hands her the glass of milk, and several Knuts. "Can't say that I blame them, mind. They say that the storm should hit in fifty-nine days now." Derannimer feels slightly shocked. "Fifty-nine days," she says aloud. "That's not very long." "No." George looks a trifle awkward. He drops his voice. "Er, Derannimer, when you say things like "that's not very long," try and say them really *quietly.*" "What? I--" "Especially with guys like that around." George quirks an eyebrow ever so slightly in Avery's direction. "Oh. Is he--" she remembers, and speaks quietly herself. "Is he concerned about the storm?" "Well, aren't we all. But yeah, Avery's been in a bad way since the first clear forecast. He's been coming in here almost every day, just sitting at that one table all day long." "Getting horribly drunk?" asks Derannimer with frank interest, and some disapproval. "Oh, no! Just. . . *sitting* there. In the corner. With his back against the corner. And his wand right under the table. Sometimes he starts muttering things to himself--largely indecipherable things, although I have caught a couple of words once or twice. Something about 'being ready.' It's dreadful for business," he adds, scowling. "Oh." Derannimer sips at her rather frothy glass of milk for a minute. Then she slowly--and, she hopes, unobtrusively--turns around to look at Avery. He is looking right back at her, with an expression that suggests that he's *been* looking at her ever since she walked up to the bar. She wants to blink just looking at him. And George was right--one hand is under the table. His right hand. His wand hand. She turns back to George, who has resumed polishing glasses with the air of one who has decided not to comment. "What's he so scared of?" she asks quietly. George drops the air and begins to comment. "DEs, for one thing," he says. "And Snape. And Dumbledore's crowd." He thinks for a minute. "And Captain Cindy, of course." He casts one very discreet glance over at Avery, still staring at Derannimer. "And now you, apparently." "But why me?" hisses Derannimer interogatively. "I don't want to do anything to him." George shrugs. "Avery's always been nervy, and he's worse now, with the hurricane coming." He lowers his voice further, if possible, and says: "And between you and me, Derannimer, Avery's never been on the soundest footing canonically, anyway." "What?" Derannimer forgets to lower her voice; George gives the slightest of starts and frowns at her. "Sorry," she positively whispers. "But really, why shouldn't he have been the. . . you know. I don't see any objections to it." "Well, for one thing, there's the evidence from Fudge." "The. . . ?" George sets down his glass and leans forward towards Derannimer, elbows on the counter. "'You are merely repeating the names of those who were acquitted of being Death Eaters thirteen years ago!'" He looks at Derannimer in the kind of way usually described as "significant." "*Thirteen,*" he repeats. "Oh." Derannimer thinks about it for a minute. "And?" she asks. George looks confused. "And? Derannimer, look at the time-line." "No, no, I know that," she explains hastily. "I just meant, well. . . how is that a problem?" George still looks confused, so Derannimer continues. "Harry had just named a whole *bunch* of DE's. What was Fudge supposed to say? 'You are merely repeating the names of those who were acquitted of being Death Eaters thirteen years ago, and oh yeah, that guy Avery, who was acquitted of being a Death Eater thirteen years ago but was then also subsequently pardoned ten years ago?' Sentence kind of loses its punch, doesn't it? What Fudge says doesn't contradict Avery as the Fourth Man; and what he *doesn't* say doesn't contradict anything at *all,* as far as I can see, because it would be really *clumsy* for him to have mentioned Avery's later pardon, as he--Fudge, I mean--was talking about *all* the DE's Harry had named. Malfoy et al as well as the last four named right before Fudge says the line in question. And it would be especially clumsy to specifically address Avery's later pardon given that Avery's name was the *first* in that batch that Harry had just mentioned. So what's the threat to Avery in that?" George is about to reply, but the double doors of the tavern suddenly Bang open to reveal Captain Cindy. "Ah, Derannimer!" she calls out, upon observing her crewman there. George gives her a disapproving look, straightens, and resumes polishing glasses. The Captain walks up to the bar, and takes a minute to return the look before turning to Derannimer. "Sailor?" she says rather hopefully, "could you buy me a drink? I seem to have left my money on the Big Bang." Derannimer can't help but feel that this request is in some way Nerve. Also possibly Gall, although she's not sure. "No," she says, a little shortly. "I can't buy you a drink, because I don't have any money. "I *could* buy you a drink if I happened to have a bigger salary," she adds, none too subtly. Captain Cindy just laughs. "No, no, that's fine. Don't feel bad about it! George, just put it on my tab." George looks like he would like to say something, but apparently decides not to. He hands Cindy a Black Russian, and constrains himself to a sneer. The Captain downs it in one. "Derannimer," she says, settling onto a bar stool and turning to face the young woman. "There's something I've been meaning to talk to you about." "Oh?" "Yeah. I had a talk with Faith a while ago, and I want to ask you: what do you think about Rita Skeeter?" Derannimer blinks. "Rita Skeeter? Oh, I guess she's okay." "I told Faith she was just doing her job. We fed the question into a Virtue Meter, actually. Derannimer decides to stick to the bit of this remark that she actually understands, and leave the Virtue Meter alone. "Well, she's going to be doing her job in the near future, anyway." The Captain blinks. "Come again?" Derannimer looks slightly embarrassed. "Oh, well, it's nothing. Just a theory. Not so much a theory as a hunch really." "About Rita Skeeter?" "Well, it just seems to me that she's going to wind up writing the truth about Voldemort's return for Dumbledore in the next book." "*What?!*" "Well," says Derannimer defensively, "*someone's* got to, because the Daily Prophet's sure not gonna. And Rita is the only journalist we really know. And Hermione could blackmail her into it. And we know that Rita dislikes the Ministry. And we can guess, from the OOP summary, that Ministry plotlines figure heavily in OOP. And Harry said of Fudge: 'He'll never keep Rita quiet. Not on a story like this,' so it's even got *fore-shadowing.*" "*And,*" she adds, after a moment's thought. "It would be a *great* boost for her career. 'Disgraced ex-Minister of Magic, Cornelius Fudge.' Snappy start to a sentence, yes?" ******** Derannimer From magsthomas at yahoo.com Tue Apr 22 22:36:40 2003 From: magsthomas at yahoo.com (Margaret Thomas) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 15:36:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Worried about Hermione/others...Truth, SHIPs, and Rita Skeeter (OOP mention) In-Reply-To: <1051044716.6494.39040.m7@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030422223640.60144.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55905 > From: "darrin_burnett" > Susanne wrote: > > I'm not sure if Ron told his family, but I see it > as > > Dumbledore's responsibility to inform Arthur and > Molly (snip!) > > > > I always assumed he did, but if it turns out he > didn't, my > > respect for Dumbledore sinks into an abyss (snip!) > > > But I think it's safe to assume that he DIDN'T tell > Arthur and Molly, > given how Molly reacted when Sirius popped up in the > hospital ward (snip!) Agreed with Darrin -- Molly would've been more calm at seeing Sirius in GoF had she been "filled in" on the whole Marauders / Animagus story, including the Scabbers!Pettigrew incidents that occurred in PoA. Not only did Dumbledore, Harry & Hermione resort to a pretty tricky (if not illegal from a MOM stance) strategy to save Buckbeak & Sirius in PoA, there's also the matter of three unregistered Animagi Marauders to confront. Explain that one to Fudge & Co. :} Dumbledore is one of JKR's key plot agents. She uses him to keep selective facts back from (or release them to) other characters *and* her readers. Sometimes Dumbledore does so to protect a key individual's true motives / activities -- Sirius, Hagrid, and Snape are examples that readily spring to mind. Information shared on a need-to-know basis only, particularly if the individual in question may come to harm as a result of the truth being learned. Which is probably one reason why he didn't tell Molly about Sirius (or his connection to Scabbers!Pettigrew)...will get to a second one momentarily. In Harry's case, he seems to release key facts when he (or JKR) feels Harry is ready to a) receive / deal with them -- ex. what we're anticipating he'll learn in OotP based on the Dumbledore quote Bloomsbury released or b) act on them -- ex. in Hagrid's Hut during CoS when he comments to the Cloaked Harry & Ron that people who ask for help will receive it. A second (and secondary) reason he may not have shared the Scabbers!Pettigrew info with Molly is that by *not* sharing absolutely everything with everyone, he does gain Harry and Ron's trust / confidence. The trio already suspect that Dumbledore's more than meets the eye. Part of why *they* believe in him is that he also believes in them -- a very important bond between adult role model and youth. Dumbledore extends his respect and communicates his awareness of / confidence in the trio's own unique talents / relationship by sharing information and keeping certain confidences. Some parents feathers would be pretty ruffled by that -- especially when it comes to a school administrator / student situation. Many parents would say "It's *my* child -- if the school is aware that my child has been in peril, the school is obligated to share that knowledge with me." In this case, Molly & Arthur have their own relative trust in / esteem for Dumbledore. So, although Molly's initial reaction to Sirius' transformation in GoF is shock / fear, she takes Dumbledore's word that Black is safe. As readers, if we trust Molly and Arthur -- and they trust Dumbledore -- and we trust Harry, Ron, & Hermione -- and they trust Dumbledore -- and we distrust Snape (but secretly like him a whole lot ;)) -- and Snape / Dumbledore trust one another (same for Sirius / Dumbledore) -- then we're more willing to trust Dumbledore, too. (By extension, Snape / Sirius grudgingly will tolerate one another...) This concept of Secret Keepers plays pretty prominently in Harry's story; we've seen what happens when you choose the right one vs. the wrong one. We've seen multiple people entrust Dumbledore with some pretty serious secrets. Which is why -- unless JKR is just flat-out duping us altogether -- I have hard time buying the Evil!Dumbledore theory. Changing the subject to worry for Hermione in OotP... Yes, Hermione plainly is *at risk* as a Muggle (as CoS demonstrates), particularly one who has strong ties with Harry. Riddlemort targeted her once already -- and that was *before* Rita Skeeter published her friendship / possible romance with Harry. It may be safe to assume that Ginny mentioned Hermione and Ron, along with Harry, while she confided in Diary!Riddle. If, as discussed in multiple previous posts, JKR took inspiration for Hermione's name from Shakespeare's "A Winter's Tale," AND JKR commented that readers don't seem to be concerned about Hermione's potential demise, I think we can anticipate that Hermione will find herself in some sort of extreme peril. Something that will separate her (and her abilities) from Harry & Ron in some way -- not unlike being petrified in CoS, but likely more severe. I'll go so far as to speculate that this "separation" may involve Harry & Ron believing she's dead / irretrievable and (possibly -- heaven forbid) be a nail-biter we have to endure between one book and the next. Could be something as straightforward as a kidnapping or as complicated as a spell / hex. Not only would Harry & Ron be shocked / devastated, they would have to muddle through without her -- and she would become a very personal "cause" for bringing Voldemort down. Should any R->Hr / H->Hr SHIP come into play, that would add further dimension -- or perhaps spur that SHIP to take full definition. At the same time, I think JKR will keep the trio intact at the end of Book 7. So, although Hermione may be in jeopardy, I feel confident about her rescue / ultimate survival. - Mags __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Tue Apr 22 22:59:47 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 22:59:47 -0000 Subject: The Characters of Arabella and Mundungus (WAS: Dumbledore's useful spies) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55906 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: > Not to mention that [Mundungus Fletcher] tried to hex Arthur > Weasley when he had his back turned in Ch. 3 of CoS. (btw, it's > actually *Percy* who says in Ch. 10 of GoF "I know for a fact he > [Mundungus] was sleeping under a cloak propped on sticks.") Yes, thanks for that. The hex, which I failed to mention, does also contribute to his dodgy character. > Barb again: > > > JKR said something like "well-spotted!" to someone who asked > > whether Arabella is the same as Mrs. Figg and everything we know > > about Mrs. Figg paints her as an extremely unpleasant person > > (although how much of that was for the Dursleys' benefit, as > > they certainly wouldn't want someone PLEASANT taking care of > > Harry, remains to be seen). > > Me again: > > While Harry dislikes being dumped at Mrs. Figg's house while > Dudley gets to go and have fun, I never got the impression that > Mrs. Figg herself is an unpleasant person. Harry thinks of her as > a "mad old lady" whose house smells of cabbage and who makes him > look at cat pictures, but IIRC she doesn't submit him to any > physical or emotional abuse. So while she's obviously not the > most enjoyable companion an 11 year old boy might want and is > obviously very peculiar, I don't think of her as an unpleasant > person. Me: Well, I was using 'unpleasant' as a very mild way of saying that Harry certainly doesn't seem to care very much that she's broken her leg, and given the chance, it seems that he'd rather go to the zoo with his horrid relatives than sit around looking at cat pictures and eating stale cake in a house that smells like cabbages. I don't think that based on these descriptions one could say his stays at Mrs. Figg's were 'pleasant.' One doesn't need to abuse people physically or emotionally for them to want to avoid your company. You can just be a really bad host. (I think activities that don't take one's guest's tastes into account, not airing out your smelly home and feeding your guest stale food qualifies you as a bad host, IMHO.) Plus, just after the 'mad old lady' description, there's a very terse sentence that says simply, "Harry hated it there." Hate is a rather strong word, it seems, if he doesn't at the very least find her 'unpleasant.' Harry seems to be perfectly happy that he's avoiding her, even though he has to be with the Dursleys plus Dudley's obnoxious friend. While he may think getting to go to the zoo may offset the unfortunate fact that he has to go with these particular people, if Mrs. Figg were in any way pleasant, it seems there'd be something about Harry genuinely hoping she was going to be all right, at the very least. Instead, it says, "Harry knew he ought to feel sorry that Mrs. Figg had broken her leg, but it wasn't easy when he reminded himself it would be a whole year before he had to look at Tibbles, Snowy, Mr. Paws and Tufty again." So any sympathy he had managed to muster would only have been out of obligation, not genuine feeling. Harry, not feel sorry for someone breaking their leg, other than a Dursley or a Malfoy? Given what we know of Harry, that seems to be the most telling clue to whether she is a pleasant person. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Tue Apr 22 20:08:49 2003 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Ibot=20Bracchae-Breves?=) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 21:08:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: The Spiritual Symbolism of HP (was: The Philosopher's Stome) In-Reply-To: <1051029097.6293.79835.m8@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030422200849.82515.qmail@web21509.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55907 Bill wrote: >I for one would *love* to hear more. I have always been interested in the symbolism behind the HP stories (having had an interest in mythology, Jungian psychology, alchemy, etc. for quite some time) and your point of view sounds quite different and interesting. My response: My warmest thanks for your encouraging words. There have been several other welcome comments plus a private one so I?ll go ahead and present some more of my theories. Please treat them only as theories and forgive me if I make any comments which may seem to transgress your religious convictions. That would not be my intention. First some replies to comments made by members: Annemehr asked: Do you mean that your group could reasonably be called "The Order of the Phoenix" or that it actually sometimes *is* called such? No it is not called that. The phoenix is a much loved symbol but it?s not part of the name. And: How can it be the mark of Cain that Harry bears on his forehead? Cain carried that mark because he was a *murderer.* Bill gave a beautiful answer: It seems to me that the *origin* of Cain's and Harry's marks are different (although they both involved attempted murder, and the 'death' of a rival), but their *effect* was to mark both of them out as unique among humans, the objects of fascination and distrust. Thanks Bill! My theory is: Cain was given the mark not because he was a murderer, but to protect him against murderers. "And the Lord put a mark upon Cain, lest any who came upon him should kill him". (Gen. 4:15) Harry?s mark is the result of his mother?s protection against Voldemort. In Harry?s case the mark came after the protection of his mother?s love; in Cain?s case it was a protection against possible attacks. I see both Cain?s and Harry?s mark as symbolising God?s protective Love. It?s important not to take these allegories too literally. As Harry (in my theory) is the heir of the Potter of the Universe, in other words, every fallen child of the Creator, this means that everyone who has the Philosopher?s Stone also has the mark. In other words: that?s everyone who is wandering around in the land of Nod, east of Eden, having been driven out from the land of his birth. Actually there is a Cain-Abel situation in GoF. In a sense Harry and Cedric were brothers in that they were both students at Hogwarts in competition against the other schools. In a way Harry caused Cedric?s death ? not by an act of murder, but by his very nobility. Alison wrote: I've always felt that there was a great deal in these books that could be read as spiritual/religious symbolism but have met mostly with blank stares when I've mentioned this to people! I know that such topics can be problematic at times so I hope it can be discussed here and that it won't cause any problems. I'd also agree with Hans that this is only one way of reading the books, and that they work excellently on several different levels. Thank you Alison, I couldn?t agree more. And: I've recently read John Granger's book The Hidden key to HP and found it fascinating. That?s wonderful. I was going to recommend this book as a matter of fact. It?s the best book (out of 19) that I?ve read about HP. There?s a whole chapter on alchemy and in a later chapter there?s a wonderful alchemical formula involving Snape, Dumbledore, Ron and Hermione as ingredients to produce "gold": Harry. I would now like to continue my theory about the story of HP showing the Path of human liberation. Harry?s mother is "Lily". The lily is the symbol of purity. Harry?s father is a "stag", which is the symbol for the thirst for the Living Water. In the words of Psalm 42: "As a hart longs for flowing streams, so longs my soul for thee, O God." These two live in Godric?s Hollow. This is the valley of the God: the human heart. When the heart is pure and longing for liberation, a son is born there. This is a nascent soul that is an innocent infant at first but grows to become a powerful "wizard" which can bring the human being to total liberation from earthly limitations, but within the Architect?s plan. This is exactly the same story as that of Moses and Jesus. Jesus lives in the manger, Harry in the cupboard under the stairs and Moses in the bulrushes. However the vested interests of this world see liberation as a threat to their existence and just as Jesus is threatened by Herod, so Harry is attacked by Voldemort. The new immortal soul does not stay in the heart; it spreads throughout the body to carry out its alchemical work. It moves into the head where it meets Hermione. Ron symbolises the mortal personality. In the chess game we see Ron being willing to sacrifice himself to let the immortal soul reach liberation. At a certain stage the new soul moves into the spinal column. Harry climbs into a pipe that leads deep down under the castle. He goes totally without any means of defending himself. He meets the basilisk. Everyone of us has a basilisk at the bottom of the spine, in the plexus sacralis (NOTE: the SACRED plexus!). It?s called the serpent of the kundalini by people who are into Yoga and by Theosophists, among others. This serpent is the sum total of our karma; it represents all the mistakes we have made in numerous incarnations; it also represents our basic human drives that fetter us to the earth and hold us back from liberation. This force is therefore also behind our sex drive. It is possible by occult exercises and intense concentration to force the serpent of the kundalini to slither upwards along the spinal column until it reaches the head. This is extremely dangerous, as anyone practising occultism or certain forms of Yoga will be able to tell you. Mistakes will lead to petrifaction or to death. However those who succeed will develop extremely great occult powers: the kinds of powers Voldemort has. And they will become rulers in "the other side". However this will be at the cost of their soul, because this process will unite them with Lucifer (Slytherin). However Harry rejects occult development and shows his loyalty to the Spirit of Liberation: Albus Dumbledore. This invokes the power of the resurrection: the phoenix. The phoenix helps Harry and of course gives him the sword with the word "God" hidden on it. The new soul, simply by being loyal to the Spirit, kills the serpent of the kundalini and so the human being is liberated from karma, or "sin". The soul rises up, back along the spinal column, triumphantly holding on to the phoenix. If there is anything in the story of HP which indicates a complete rejection of black magic and occultism, it is this. To me this is the proof that Harry is indeed the son of God who is born within the heart of the mortal human being to lead Ron, Hermione and himself to Godric?s Kingdom. If by some miracle I could meet or send a message to Dr Rowling I would want to say "THANK YOU", with all my heart, with all my soul, and with all my mind. There is so much more to say on this, but I?ll wait for comments and questions. I want to finish by pointing out a curious little coincidence. As you are probably all aware one of the authors mentioned on Harry?s booklist in PoA is Cassandra Vablatsky. The name Vablatsky is obviously a spoonerisation of Mme Blavatsky, the founder of the Theosophical Society (still going strong today). Mme Blavatsky wrote an intensely spiritual booklet called "The Voice of the Silence". It just so happens that verse 11 of this booklet has the word "Potter" in it. Harry was 11 when he began his magical career. It?s also curious that Mme Blavatsky?s initials are . HP! This stands for Helena Petrovna, which means: Light of the Stone. "Before the soul can comprehend and may remember, she must unto the Silent Speaker be united just as the form to which the clay is modelled, is first united with the potter?s mind." The Voice of the Silence, verse 11, by HP Blavatsky. Hans --------------------------------- Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Frontsiderocker at msn.com Tue Apr 22 21:00:23 2003 From: Frontsiderocker at msn.com (Mark Hewitt) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 22:00:23 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore and Scabbers, was Re: Worried about Hermione/others Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55908 Marrianne wrote, >Maybe this is evidence of Dumbledore the Manipulator, or maybe it's >Dumbledore trying to protect Sirius. After all, saying Scabbers is Peter >Pettigrew inevitably would lead to questions about Sirius, and maybe >Dumbledore figured it would be best to keep that quiet until such time as >Peter can be presented alive to the authorities as proof of Sirius' >innocence. Me- Dumbledore has been credited for being aware of many things, ("Never misses a trick"/"Knows pretty much everything that goes on around here") I imagine that theres already been much discussion into whether or not if he is a seer-If so he'd know the right time to interveen or not in affairs such as Scabber/Pettigrew. I beleive his background, history and personality will become more developed in the next book. Frontsiderocker _________________________________________________________________ Worried what your kids see online? Protect them better with MSN 8 http://join.msn.com/?page=features/parental&pgmarket=en-gb&XAPID=186&DI=1059 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Dionysos at Dionysia.org Tue Apr 22 20:39:47 2003 From: Dionysos at Dionysia.org (Dan Delaney) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 16:39:47 -0400 Subject: WHO changed Philosopher's to Sorcerer's and WHY? Message-ID: <8E6E58AE-7502-11D7-8066-000A27E2A402@dionysia.org> No: HPFGUIDX 55909 The sub-thread in the "What is Canon?" thread a week ago got me thinking about the "Sorcerer" vs. "Philosopher" thing. I haven't ever seen a suitable explanation for why this word-switch occurred. Many quick explanations have been thrown out, such as: "it was believed American children would not know what a Philosopher was", or "the publishers thought that those of us in the U.S. wouldn't "get it" ", or "they thought that U.S. audiences would be turned off by the word "Philosopher's" because it was too dull or something", or my favorite :-), from Katy: "It's like that because of the differences of the English language in the US as opposed to English in England." (Excuse me...HAHAHAHAHA...ahem, sorry. Being someone who got his degree in philosophy here in the U.S., I can tell you that not one time in any of the many philosophy classes I attended was the word "sorcery" used in place of "philosophy".) What I want to know is, WHO WAS IT at Scholastic who thought that U.S. kids would be turned off by the word "Philosopher" in the title and that changing it to "Sorcerer" would sell more books? I WANT NAMES :-). And WHAT WAS THEIR RATIONALE? Did they have any demographic research for this opinion? Obviously the word Philosopher hadn't hurt sales in other parts of the world, so why did they think that it would be a problem in the U.S.? And considering that the books sell just fine in Britain, Canada, Australia, etc. with the original title, do they still think that they made the right decision? Has anyone ever interviewed the people at Scholastic to get answers to these questions? My opinion is that it was a baseless decision on the part of someone there at Scholastic because book sellers and movie producers here in the U.S. (maybe they're like this elsewhere too) are convinced that a book or movie has to sound exciting and action-packed to be successful and that if it doesn't have a bunch of explosions and blood and gore, then it won't sell. "Sorcerer", after all, sound a lot more exciting than "Philosopher". But I think Kathryn's analogy of changing "Holy Grail" to "Magical Grail" is an excellent point. It was simply wrong to change "Philosopher's Stone" to "Sorcerer's Stone", and it's sad that the U.S. readers are stuck with such marketing stupidity. And as she pointed out, "...the implication [is] that American kids are somehow more easily bored or more stupid than the rest of the English-speaking world, all of whom coped perfectly well with the word Philosopher." Cheers. --Dan From Dionysos at Dionysia.org Tue Apr 22 21:35:17 2003 From: Dionysos at Dionysia.org (Dan Delaney) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 17:35:17 -0400 Subject: Canon vs. pseudo-canon (was: What is Canon?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4F6F9DE0-750A-11D7-8066-000A27E2A402@dionysia.org> No: HPFGUIDX 55910 On Monday, April 21, 2003, at 02:31 PM, Amy Z wrote: > I suppose we could have two varieties: "J. K. Rowling canon" (words > she wrote/spoke) and "Harry Potter canon" (anything at all having to > do with Harry Potter) Taking our lead from Biblical scholarship, we could refer to anything J.K. Rowling writes (or writings she has explicitly approved) about Harry Potter as CANONICAL and anything that other people write about Harry Potter as PSEUDO-CANONICAL. Thus, the (soon to be) five Potter books, and the others that Rowlings has written (Quidditch Through the Ages, et. al.) would be the CANON, and fan-fiction and the movies, and maybe even the merchandise and video games, would be the PSEUDO-CANON. (And please, don't spell it "cannon" ;o) --Dan From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Tue Apr 22 23:49:54 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 23:49:54 -0000 Subject: Muggle-borns in the future and some other responses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55911 Darrin wrote: Colin Creevy and Dean Thomas and Justin Finch-Feeley will also get jobs in the magic world. So, what happens to their Muggle families? Do they continue bouncing back and forth, visiting between the worlds? It seems to me that the Grangers are very very blase about the whole thing and Mrs. Finch- Feeley was swayed by one of Gilderoy Lockhart's books, if I recall. And the Creevy's have now sent two boys to school. Or, is it possible that these wizards and witches reenter the Muggle world and find "normal" jobs? Or, once you've gone wizard, can you never go back? END QUOTE. I reply: Hey Darrin ? it's Justin Finch-Fletchley, btw. ;-) I'd guess that muggle families with wizard-children deal with adult employment the same way that they deal with their non-magical children that go away to school or move to other places. They probably see each other for holidays and special events, and keep in contact via mail or whatever while they're apart. And I bet that there are probably many opportunities for wizards to work in direct contact, somehow, with muggle society, but we haven't heard of them yet. As we know, Fudge was able to get in contact with the muggle Prime Minister when Sirius escaped from Azkaban. I'd imagine that getting in touch with the Prime Minister is tough, so that must mean something about his contacts with the muggle world. As for getting a job in muggle society, I think that Patricia is right about needing qualifications, but only with specific regard to jobs that require them. For instance, I can't see a wizard having difficulty getting *any* job, just difficulty getting a job as a machinist or electrician, or in some major accounting or development firm or something. But, could a wizard open up a restaurant, pub, or a store? Sure. I don't see why not. As for Patricia's point on keeping the magic a secret, I think that that does apply, at least to the present WW. However, I don't think that it'll apply through to the end of the series. It's my personal belief (or hope) that by the end of the book 7, the lid will be blown right off of their little secret world, as much as I like it. Meta- wise, the status quo cannot remain the same, if we're to have a worthwhile series. Things MUST change. Thus, by the end, I bet the giants will be part of the WW, and that the dementors will be out of Azkaban, and that House elves, at minimum, will be able to choose whether or not they want to be enslaved. On that note, I think that the secrecy of the WW will be one of the casualties. And anyways, think of all the benefits that could come from a sharing of the magic... from a certain viewpoint, the WW is quite selfish - think of what the world could be like if the WW wasn't hoarding its powers all to itself. Anyways, not going to rant here, but that's just my hope. Darrin wrote: We don't know for sure that Lockhart even attended Hogwarts, do we? There ARE other wizarding schools and Draco almost going to Durmstrang indicates that all British kids don't have to attend Hogwarts. Maybe he's a Beauxbaton grad. If he did go to Hogwarts, I'd say he likely was a Gryffindor. Indications are that Pettigrew was, and look how he turned out. END QUOTE. I reply: We don't know that Lockhart went to Hogwarts. I've heard that many consider him prime Slytherin material, actually. The whole Memory Charm = `using any means to achieve his ends' thing. Given that Lockhart is such a wimp, as we see from his fear at the end of CoS, I doubt that he'd be Gryffindor material, IMHO. As for Pettigrew, it's my understanding that we have no canon to indicate at all what houses Harry's parents or their friends were in. We don't even know for sure that *James* was a Gryffindor, never mind Pettigrew. Granted, Sirius seems to know where the Gryffindor Tower entrance is in PoA, but technically, that doesn't mean anything. After all, Harry and Ron now know where the Slytherin entrance is thanks to their Polyjuice adventure in CoS. Those darn kids. ;-) -Tom From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Tue Apr 22 21:50:47 2003 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 21:50:47 -0000 Subject: What is Canon? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55912 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "maria_kirilenko" wrote: > > Personally, I tend to view her interviews as canon even now, but only > if her statements > > a) don't contradict the books, either directly or indirectly (such as > the '1000 people at Hogwarts' quote - that's difficult to reconcile > with canon) > > b) are not subject to various interpretations. FOr example, if she > says that Lily was nee Evans, I don't see a reason not to believe > her. If she says that Harry and Hermione don't have a date and that > they're 'very platonic friends,' I take it into consideration, but > never use it as a final argument. The same goes for 'Everyone is in > love with the wrong people.' What does she mean, 'in love?' > Or 'everyone?' > > c) are either just that - statements, or answers to specific, well- > framed questions. The question 'Do Harry and Hermione have a date' > was just plain dumb, and didn't deserve any sort of coherent answer, > even if JKR were, for some strange reason, tempted to answer it in > full. > > I guess that's it... maybe I'm missing something. > > I think that AFTER the series is complete, *and* it becomes obvious > that the Potterverse will not be expanded by new books, either > by "Hogwarts, a History," which I, personally, am dying to see, or by > some sort of MWPP adventures, or something else that would definitely > be fun to read about, we should still have a right not to accept the > kinds of statements that don't fit a-c. And NOW, I don't see the > reason why we can't accept the interviews as canon... as long, as > Gwen said, we take them with a grain of salt. I find it difficult to go beyond the principle that canon=the books; the books=canon, period. Should there be any books after HP VII (I would endure the Cruciatus Curse if it would persuade JKR to write "Hogwarts, a History"or to publish her secret notes), then they too will be part of canon. It is an aphorism that an author's works speak for themselves. Even the author's comments aren't strictly canon. It is only because JKR is so very careful in speaking about the books and the Wizarding world that her interviews have approached the status of canon. Even so, Maria has felt compelled to qualifiy her acceptance of this. Derivative works-- such as the movies, videogames, fanfics, HP coloring books, HP samplers, HP-themed Snellen visual acuity charts, the labels on the wrappers of these HP candies that have been on the market-- cannot now nor ever will they be canon. That said, it doesn't mean that we cannot enjoy these derivative works and speculate to our heart content about all kinds of interesting points. And we surely do, do we not? -Haggridd From Dionysos at Dionysia.org Tue Apr 22 21:54:54 2003 From: Dionysos at Dionysia.org (Dan Delaney) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 17:54:54 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What is Canon? In-Reply-To: <050601c3081b$647f2820$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> Message-ID: <0D296FA7-750D-11D7-8066-000A27E2A402@dionysia.org> No: HPFGUIDX 55913 On Monday, April 21, 2003, at 11:33 AM, Katy Cartee wrote: > Nobody has given me a good reason thus far as to WHY we should refute > facts retrieved from objects other than the books if they do not > contradict what is in the books! I'm sorry, but you simply don't understand what the word "canon" means. It's a matter of definition. The word "canon" is most often used in relation to religious writings as an authoritative list of books accepted as Holy Scripture. In the case of Christianity, that would be the Old Testament and New Testament. Other gospels and letters that have been found over the years, as well as all of the writings of the early church fathers are NOT canonical (they are referred to as either "pseudo-canonical" or "apocryphal"). In this context, however, the word 'canon" refers to the authentic works of a writer, in this case, J.K. Rowling. The four books up to this point, the fifth when it is released, and the other books she has written to supplement the series (the Quidditch and Monster things) all comprise the official Harry Potter Canon. Everything else is "pseudo-canonical". Canon can also be writings that were commissioned and approved by the author to be a part of his or her creation. Take the Star Wars saga, for instance. Lucas writes the main stories and creates movies out of them. But he doesn't consider himself a writer, so he hires professional sci-fi novelists to write the novel versions of the movies. He also approves other novels by other writers that expand on the stories of the original Star Wars universe. All of those official Star Wars novels are canonical for the Star Wars universe, because Lucas himself (the creator of the Star Wars universe) allows them to be official. Rowling could very well hire someone to write books six and/or seven of the series. She may decide that she just doesn't have to time to finish them (what with the new child and all) and just hire someone she trusts to finish them up. Those two books would still be canonical, because she would have to approve them before they got published. > pretend that the picture depicted Harry reading the book "Pride and > Prejudice" and had a caption underneath it stating "Harry, reading his > favorite book." If nowhere in the completed series are we told what > Harry's favorite book is, i would take this caption as being > "canonical fact" as there is no reason not to! It would only be canonical if Rowling herself created the picture and caption, or if she approved it as accurate. Just because somebody states something about Harry Potter and nothing in the book refutes that statement, doesn't mean that it's canonical fact. I could state right here and now that Harry Potter hates grape jelly. Just because the book doesn't mention Harry's attitude toward grape jelly doesn't make that statement I just made canonical fact, now does it? > Here's one good reason why we SHOULD accept them as fact (or "canon"): > ...What else will we have to turn to to satiate our thirst for > Potter-knowledge? I'll tell you - OTHER licensed sources. I don't know > about you, but it would thrill me to learn more facts after the series > is complete. Licensing has nothing to do with it. Licensing is a legal term for BRANDING purposes only. It is to determine who gets to make and sell something with the Harry Potter name on it. It would thrill me too to have official stories produced after Rowling finishes book seven. But they would only be "canon" if they were written by Rowling herself, or if she hired someone to officially write something about it and approved the writings. --Dan From yutu at wanadoo.es Tue Apr 22 22:50:31 2003 From: yutu at wanadoo.es (izaskun granda) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 00:50:31 +0200 Subject: Fw: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pronunciation of 'Knut' Message-ID: <003801c30921$94728610$5850243e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 55914 Monita wrote: It is at the discretion of the creator of the series how she intended it to be pronounced. So if J.K. never posts to us we may never know. However, I am under the impression that she was consulted during the making of the official games and movies and other such products and thus upon hearing the word Knut pronounced kuh-nut in the official Playstation Game of Harry Potter and the Philosophers Stone, I have assumed the presumption that this is likely to be the correct pronuciation in this case. Yeah? yeah.... the valkspeaks Me: And don't forget the audiobooks, I don't know about the Jim Dale version, but Stephen Fry pronounces Kuh-nut quite clearly. Cheers. Izaskun From yutu at wanadoo.es Tue Apr 22 22:58:53 2003 From: yutu at wanadoo.es (izaskun granda) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 00:58:53 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore had a number of useful spies References: Message-ID: <004d01c30922$c00de520$5850243e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 55915 galadriel1 at m... writes: In Chapter 10, The Marauder's Map, a number of faculty are discussing James and Sirius' relationship in Hogwarts days and the secret - keeper that Lily and James chose. Fudge states, "Dumbledore, who was working tirelessly against You Know Who, had a number of useful spies. One of them tipped him off, and he alerted James and Lily at once." JessaDrow at a... wrote: Lupin would be my guess, even though Black didn't trust him, James and/or Lily may have. Rosebeth wrote: As much as I like Lupin and would want him to have a herioc role. I have to ask, how would Lupin know what LV was planning? IMHO, Snape is the best guess because he would have access to LV's plans. Barb: In addition, it is clear in PoA that Lupin was in fact out of the loop. I'm still interested in learning what he was really up to during that time, as he seems to have become disconnected enough from the others (Lily, James, Peter, Sirius) for him to be considered a viable suspect for traitor. Many werewolves were said to be turning to Voldemort, and while it could have been Peter who put this into the others' heads in order to throw suspicion off himself, the other three may also have thought of this themselves, without any prompting from Peter, the actual traitor (which would have made Peter rub his hands gleefully, no doubt). Perhaps he was working with the originator of the Wolfsbane Potion, to try to perfect the concoction? (You need a guinea pig for these things.) Who knows? We do know, however, that Snape was in fact working as a spy for Dumbledore. Regardless of his motivation for telling him of the plot against the Potters (and whoever it was, they weren't THAT much in the know, as the spy didn't know the identity of the traitor), it seems most likely to have been Snape, until we find out more about these shadowy 'spies.' Other possibilities are somewhat slim at this point. There's Mundungus Fletcher, spoken of as part of the 'old crowd' (which could mean anything, but it does remind one of "Smiley's People"--or at least it reminds me of that), plus Arabella Figg. The interesting thing about these people is that what little information we have about them means that they are every bit as disreputable as Snape, the scourge of non-Slytherins since he took his teaching post. Fletcher, we find out near the beginning of GoF, was trying to put in a ridiculous claim for an elaborate tent damaged during the QWC, despite the fact that Arthur saw him sleeping under his cloak propped up on sticks. JKR said something like "well-spotted!" to someone who asked whether Arabella is the same as Mrs. Figg and everything we know about Mrs. Figg paints her as an extremely unpleasant person (although how much of that was for the Dursleys' benefit, as they certainly wouldn't want someone PLEASANT taking care of Harry, remains to be seen). I will rashly predict that each and every one of Dumbledore's spies will prove to have either an abrasive personality and/or a checkered past, as do the above (Snape, Fletcher, Figg). It would be entirely fitting for people like this to be fighting for the good guys, and bring us back to JKR's original message of choices being the important thing, which is something I hope SHE doesn't forget. Now me: Well, we are confusing colaborators with spies. I mean, probably Arabella Figg, Mundungus and the old gang were indeed fighting Voldemort with DD, but a spy is someone who can access the world of the DE, that means, a former death eater, like Snape, or someone very close to a real DE and who can get information from him/her. Narcissa Malfoy could be a good guess, but still, this is all guess-work, we'll know soon enough. Anyway, I think we must keep all this in mind, the old gang fought, or protected, the spies were working inside the group of DE, and Snape is not the only one, so I keep thinking he went to contact the rest of them, who they are, I don't know, maybe someone we haven't heard of yet, or maybe someone we know but don't suspect. Izaskun From Frontsiderocker at msn.com Tue Apr 22 23:07:50 2003 From: Frontsiderocker at msn.com (Mark Hewitt) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 00:07:50 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Characters of Arabella and Mundungus (WAS: Dumbledore's useful spies) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55916 Phyliss wrote- >Harry thinks of her as a "mad old lady" whose house smells of cabbage >and >who makes him look at cat pictures. Mrs Figgs slightly odd and eccentric characteristics seem to point to the idea that she may indeed be a Witch-If she is one of Dumbledore's formentioned spies, then her task seems to have been to keep an eye on the younger Harry. Another questioned that may have been previously discussed-How old are the "Old Crowd"? Are Figg and Fletcher the same age as Lupin? Frontsiderocker _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail messages direct to your mobile phone http://www.msn.co.uk/mobile [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Tue Apr 22 23:24:34 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstin Innes) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 23:24:34 -0000 Subject: Hermione's age (Was:The timeline on the DVD *confirms* canon.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55917 > Jo Serenadust wrote: > If the birthdate had been 1979, then Hermione "fits" into the story > as a product of the normal British educational system with its Sept > 1 cutoff. Now that it lists the 1980 birth date, it just doesn't > fit for me unless we get further information. If JKR gives us some > backstory for why Hermione is moved ahead in either a direct > interview, or as part of a future book, then I'll be perfectly > satisfied. Until then, it's still questionable for me based on > JKR's past inconsistencies with dates and numbers. Me: Isn't there some canonical evidence for Hogwarts being in Scotland, though? As a product of the Scottish education system born in September 1980, I'm well aware that the cut-off date for entry to the Scottish year group is March 1st in the year following the England/ Wales September deadline. And while JKR might have grown up within the English/Welsh education system, her daughter is currently growing up in the Scottish one. Admittedly, this theory can be easily argued against - Scottish students only go through six years at high school (they start at twelve-ish) to Hogwarts/ England's seven. Oh well. Just a thought. It would solve the Hermione problem, though. Kirstin, who is a little concious that she only ever seems to post longwinded Scottish Nationalist tractettes on this site... From briony_coote at hotmail.com Tue Apr 22 23:34:20 2003 From: briony_coote at hotmail.com (Briony Coote) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 11:34:20 +1200 Subject: Order of the Phoenix, Sirius Black and Azkaban Message-ID: <000201c30927$b2c782e0$1d92fea9@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 55918 I believe that OOTP will bring the matter of proving (successfully or otherwise) Sirius' innocence to the fore, for several reasons: 1. Sirius Black will be of more use to the Light Side if he is a free man, so proving his innocence will be one priority. 2. While he remains a fugitive, Sirius will be the weak link in the chain of the "old crowd." Voldemort could well try something (through Pettigrew and/or Skeeter) to have Sirius recaptured. And if word gets out that Dumbledore & Co. are protecting Sirius, they will be in big trouble and this would deal a death blow to the Light Side. 3. There is the matter of whether Azkaban will be broken open. Voldemort could engineer the recapture of Sirius Black as part of his plan to do this - especially if those Dementors get secretly removed. If the Dementors stay, then breaking Azkaban open will be much simpler. 4. Does anyone remember from GoF that the Lestranges and that fourth man managed to "talk their way out of Azkaban" before being re-arrested for the Longbottoms' torture? Just how did these people manage to talk their way out of Azkaban? I can't see the Lestranges snitching on their fellow Deatheaters, unlike sneaky Karkaroff or declaring themselves repentant. The only explanation I can think of is that the Lestranges named some perfectly innocent people, who, like Sirius Black, became victims of Barty Crouch justice. Sirius did say that he was not the only one tossed to the Dementors without trial. 5. Who was that fourth man in the Pensieve? Voldemort doesn't mention him as being entombed in Azkaban. Why? Why wasn't that man named? For that matter, why didn't Rowling specify which of the men was Mr Lestrange? We definitely have a thread here to keep an eye on. If it is related to the people who were thrown to the Dementors without trial, this will certainly relate to Sirius Black's fight for justice. I also believe that the Dementors would be more of a threat than the imprisoned Deatheaters, so it will be more urgent to remove the Dementors than the imprisoned Deatheaters. We know that the Lestranges are alive (Voldemort said so), but goodness knows what their mental state is like. The Lestranges & Co. may have clung to some thought or other to keep them sane, as Sirius did. But one must also remember that Sirius also used his animagus form to give some relief from the Dementors' torture. To the best of my knowledge, the Lestranges & Co. are not animagi, so they would not have the extra edge that Sirius did. The Dementors, on the other hand "are Voldemort's natural allies" so they pose the greater of two evils. Briony [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From millerbrad at hotmail.com Tue Apr 22 23:39:42 2003 From: millerbrad at hotmail.com (Brad Miller) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 23:39:42 -0000 Subject: Violet / Petunia & "walrus-mustache wizard" / Vernon Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55919 Remember the pictures on the walls in Chapter 16 of GoF (in the room behind the professors' table in the great hall)? Remembers the descriptions of the wizened witch and the wizard with the walrus mustache? Violet, the wizened witch, then went around the castle gossiping about the happenings with the Goblet of Fire. Who do this wizard and witch remind you of? They remind me of Aunt Petunia and Uncle Vernon. Is the room in Chapter 16 the room we keep hearing is so special in OoTP? Do these pictures give a clue of the surprising information we're going to find out about the Dursleys? Are they both squibs? Are they both wizards/witches, just like Arabella Figg probably is? After all, like the Dursleys, Figg hasn't been described as a pleasant person either. Just my thoughts... Brad From laurenl at palm.net Tue Apr 22 22:56:03 2003 From: laurenl at palm.net (oldone7777) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 22:56:03 -0000 Subject: Freindship outside trio -Draco Malfoy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55920 Somebody pointed out Draco playing the Dementor trick during a Quidditch match as dangerous. I agree it was dangerous and, stupid. Was it any worse than the tricks the Mauraders played? Some of their tricks were dangerous (the whomping willow and, Snape) for example. THe creation of the map is another example. Lupin said the creators of the map would have wanted to lure Harry out of the school (which would endanger Harry) and, think it was funny. Draco may reach an understanding with Harry in the fight with Voldie but, would never be fast freinds. I agree it could be another sourse of tension in the Ron-Harry relationship. "Old One" From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 23 00:10:28 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 17:10:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What is Canon? In-Reply-To: <0D296FA7-750D-11D7-8066-000A27E2A402@dionysia.org> Message-ID: <20030423001028.16230.qmail@web20004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55921 --- Dan Delaney wrote: > Canon can also be writings that were commissioned > and approved by the > author to be a part of his or her creation. Take the > Star Wars saga, > for instance. Lucas writes the main stories and > creates movies out of > them. But he doesn't consider himself a writer, so > he hires > professional sci-fi novelists to write the novel > versions of the > movies. He also approves other novels by other > writers that expand on > the stories of the original Star Wars universe. All > of those official > Star Wars novels are canonical for the Star Wars > universe, because > Lucas himself (the creator of the Star Wars > universe) allows them to be > official. Actually, despite them being licensed, I belive that George Lucas himself has said the novels are non canon. With the possible exception of the ones based on the movie. But EU is not canon. It's been much contradicted by the movies. Actually, I've never before run into a fan on the Internet that thought EU was canon. I do think he said it wasn't, but I'm by no means positive. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From siskiou at earthlink.net Wed Apr 23 00:15:55 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 17:15:55 -0700 Subject: Ron's age, was Re: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's age In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <10675979198.20030422171555@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 55922 Hi, Tuesday, April 22, 2003, 4:24:34 PM, Kirstin wrote: > As a product of the Scottish education system born in > September 1980, I'm well aware that the cut-off date for entry to > the Scottish year group is March 1st in the year following the > England/ Wales September deadline. And if this is the case we can start debating how old *Ron* is? If you are born on March 1rst in this system, do you get in, or do you have to wait until the next year? Do we have any canon evidence how old exactly Ron is supposed to be? ;) -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com Wed Apr 23 00:34:23 2003 From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 17:34:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SHIPping Attitudes // Hermione's Age In-Reply-To: <006401c308cf$ed524470$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: <20030423003423.41448.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55923 Yours truly: > So...do you see that "certain feelings > between the three of them" also proves > nothing and disproves nothing? No > death sentence being signed here? No > death knell being tolled? No swan > song being sung? Penny: > Er........*YES*! I thought I have > been abundantly clear, but apparently > not. I don't quite understand the > animosity in tone (sarcasm) of your > recent posts, Petra, but let me try > to explain my position a bit more > clearly. Sarcasm? Regularly...though mostly to make a point as opposed to scoring a point. I should mention that more often, no? :) Animosity? Not intended, I quite assure you, even as I hammer away at my soap boxes. Penny: > I did use the word "trump," > but substantively, all I mean is > that the *scope* of the "platonic > friends" quote must surely be called > into question a bit based on DVD > interview quote. It should make the > reasonable shippers raise their > eyebrows a bit, *I* would think. Well said. :) Yours truly: > Because to be specific now is to > spoil the future books. JKR > cannot possibly wish to spoil Books > 5-6-7. Therefore she's going to be > truthful without actually 'trump' > any ships. Penny: > *EXACTLY.* Exactly. So, the "platontic > friends" quote is *likewise* not a > spoiler of "forevermore" scope. Right? As proof of the lack of actual and abiding animosity, I gift the hammer to you as a *replacement* of the "certain feelings between the three of them" in defense against the "platonic friends" quote. In fact, this hammer is sturdy enough that anyone else who can make good use of it, regardless of ship preference, is welcome to it. Penny: > Overall, I think we must agree on one > thing: the interview and chat > statements are subject to multiple > interpretations and really can't be > taken to mean anything definitive on > shipping by one side or the other, > especially as we consider the point > that Petra hammers home again and > again: it's not in Rowling's interest > or desire to spoil the later books > on plot points. QED :) * * * Jo Serenadust: > OK with me. I still don't see > Hermione's age having any real plot > importance, unless it's just not > been revealed yet. I really didn't > care until this DVD timeline issue > came up, and I still don't get > why it is so very important to you > that she be younger by a matter > of months rather than older. Did > I miss a post explaining that? If > so, please direct me to it because > I have a feeling that I'm missing > *something*. Well, at least one shipper somewhere (can't for the life of me remember exactly where in Potterdom) argued that if Hermione is older than Harry (or did she say Ron?) then they can't become a couple...'cause that'd be too 'ewww.' I really hope that there's more of a basis for the interest in Hermione's age than this but I've never seen it articulated anywhere else either. Anyone? Does this issue come up (more than just in passing) anywhere else with the kind of passion it usually exhibits in shipping threads? Petra, amateur handicapper a n :) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From william.truderung at sympatico.ca Wed Apr 23 00:45:44 2003 From: william.truderung at sympatico.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 00:45:44 -0000 Subject: The Spiritual Symbolism of HP (was: The Philosopher's Stome) In-Reply-To: <20030422200849.82515.qmail@web21509.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55924 Hans, I don't know if you have read any of the posts here some time ago about the theory that Harry Potter was in fact the 'Living Philosopher's Stone' There are too many to list but the following at least make a start: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/38511 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/38542 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/38615 I hope that this is of some interest. Bill From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Wed Apr 23 00:52:13 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 00:52:13 -0000 Subject: I love Theories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55925 theValk wrote: Another official JK statement gives us the strongest clue where young Ginny is headed. A few of the Hogwarts students will become animagii in future books. I reply: Out of curiosity, where did you hear/read that? I'd be very interested to find out, since I'm of the opinion (I hope, I hope, I hope) that we're just about done with animagi, and that if they make too many more appearances, the quality of the story will suffer. And where in CoS does it suggest that Ginny has a special interest in Transfiguration? I can't find the passage where that's said. Anyways, Ginny is a year younger than Harry - so do you think that that is even a workable situation? It means that she'll be an animag'a' (gender adjustment, anyone?) before/while she's a sixth year student? AFAIK, we haven't heard anything about how a student might legally become a registered animagus. We don't know that it's even allowed for students to attempt the magic that causes the transformation, which is described as very dangerous and complicated. Are you suggesting that she'll do it illegally? I mean, it took the Marauders "the better part of three years to work it out," (PoA, US paperback, Ch.18, 354) and James and Sirius were, in Lupin's words, "the cleverest students in the school." (ibid). But we haven't been given any indication thus far that Ginny has any special talents or abilities. And if she's to become an animag'a' then she'll have to get hopping (or else she's already working on it now) because she'll be a fourth year in OOP. So, if she's to be an, um, 'functioning' animag'a' by the end of Book 7, then she's got a shorter timeline than Sirius/James to get it done. Objectively speaking, Ginny isn't describable as the 'cleverest student in the school.' Actually, I don't even think we've been given any indication that she's clever at all or has any special aptitudes. Not to say that I don't like Ginny (and I do,) just that I don't see her as having the skill, know-how, or time to become an animag'a'. -Tom From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Wed Apr 23 01:17:53 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 01:17:53 -0000 Subject: HP and Les Miserables Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55926 Okay, so I was recently skimming my ratty old copy of Les Miserables, and I kept noticing similarities with HP. Not in a "Hey, JKR is ripping off Hugo" sort of way, but in the "Hmm, check out the common themes and archetypes" sort of way. Consider, if you will, the story of Cosette. She is an orphan (well, technically, her father's alive, but he abandoned her mother and doesn't even know Cosette exists, so he doesn't count). She's being brought up by the horrible Thenardiers, who abuse her and make her do all the scut work in their home, while lavishing affection and material gifts on their own daughters. They also lie about her origin, telling everyone that Cosette is a charity case they took in out of the goodness of their hearts, so that other people will think well of them. Sounds an awful lot like Harry, doesn't it? One day Jean Valjean shows up. He's big, scary-looking and inhumanly strong, but he's also gentle and kind, and Cosette instinctively trusts him. He has a letter authorizing him to take Cosette away from the Thenardiers. They don't want to let her go, but there's nothing they can do about it, and Valjean takes her away to a new life where she'll be happy and loved. Sounds a lot like Hagrid coming to the rescue, right? After that, Hugo and JKR go off in totally different directions, but it was enough to get me going, so I started thinking about the Hagrid/Valjean parallels. Hagrid is not an ex-con, but he *was* blamed for a crime, and would've probably ended up as much a social outcast as Valjean if Dumbledore hadn't come to his rescue. So I guess this casts Dumbledore as the Bishop of Digne, which is funny, because I had long thought of Dumbledore as playing the Bishop's role, but for Snape rather than for Hagrid. And then it occured to me that there are three characters in the Potterverse -- Hagrid, Snape and Sirius -- who, when taken together, cover all the aspects of Jean Valjean's character. Here's my Valjean checklist: 1. He's big, rough and scary-looking, but kind on the inside. (Hagrid) 2. He's an unjustly hunted fugitive. (Sirius) 3. He once started to fall into evil, but was turned to good by the trust and generosity of the Bishop of Digne. (Snape) 4. Considers himself partially responsible for the death of Cosette's mother, Fantine, even thought he didn't kill her himself. (Sirius, and possibly Snape) 5. Becomes a replacement parent for Cosette, fulfilling a promise he made to Fantine before she died. (Sirius) And, of course, all three men are social outcasts and all three were saved, in various ways, by Dumbledore. The Bishop of Digne is described as having saved Valjean's soul; Dumbledore does this for Snape in the metaphorical sense and for Sirius in the perfectly literal sense. And speaking of sense, am I actually making any, or am I totally out in left field here? Marina Rusalka rusalka at ix.netcom.com From the_fox01 at hotmail.com Wed Apr 23 00:28:30 2003 From: the_fox01 at hotmail.com (The Fox) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 20:28:30 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What is Canon? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55927 From: Rebecca Stephens >--- Dan Delaney wrote: >>Canon can also be writings that were commissioned and approved by the >>author to be a part of his or her creation. Take the Star Wars saga, for >>instance. Lucas writes the main stories and creates movies out of them. >>But he doesn't consider himself a writer, so he hires professional sci-fi >>novelists to write the novel versions of the movies. He also approves >>other novels by other writers that expand on the stories of the original >>Star Wars universe. All of those official Star Wars novels are canonical >>for the Star Wars universe, because Lucas himself (the creator of the Star >>Wars universe) allows them to be official. > >Actually, despite them being licensed, I belive that George Lucas himself >has said the novels are non canon. With the possible exception of the ones >based on the movie. But EU [Extended Universe] is not canon. It's been >much contradicted by the movies. Lucas has actually called the novels "glorified fan fiction". This is pretty rich, considering he's the one doing the glorifying, but there you go. :-) This includes the novelizations of the films themselves, so strictly speaking the Star Wars canon presently consists only of the five films. This makes every bit as much sense as considering the Harry Potter canon presently to consist only of the four books[1], and not the films. You've got canon in one medium, and you've got material in another medium based on the original canon material. Only one of them can be right, when they disagree. [1] I'm less comfortable including the schoolbooks, and *even* less comfortable including statements made in interviews -- but at least in this fandom, it's a safe bet that our storyteller won't change horses in mid-stream. I believe JKR has planned this all through; I no longer believe George Lucas ever had a spiral notebook. Fox ........... Matthew 7:1 Luke 6:37 ... "You want to tempt the wrath of the whatever from high atop the thing?" -- West Wing ... Come on, Nature Just because I don't feel weak Don't mean I feel so strong. -- the Proclaimers .............................. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From stix4141 at hotmail.com Wed Apr 23 01:21:18 2003 From: stix4141 at hotmail.com (stickbook41) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 01:21:18 -0000 Subject: FILK: That Girl Hermione Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55928 THAT GIRL HERMIONE A filk to the tune of "Breakfast At Tiffany's" by Deep Blue Something, on their album Home SCENE: SS/PS?It's 31 October, the first-year Gryffindors are sitting in Charms class RON: Flitwick did not partner me with Harry He stuck me with Hermione That bossy know-it-all I said the spell and waved my wand `round Our feather stayed on the ground She said, "You did it all wrong!" So I said, "Well then, You do it, Smarty-pants!" And that girl said, "You Have to pronunciate!" If I recall, she made The feather go straight up Then she said, "That's how You levitate!" I stomped out?I said she was a nightmare I was too angry to care That I made her cry I won't mind if she never recovers And I'm glad we got rid of her I can get on with my life Then Harry said, "What about That girl Hermione?" He said, "I think that Maybe she heard you." As I recall, I think, I felt kinda funny But I said, "That means She now has a clue." (Fast forward to the Halloween feast) RON: I said, "What a great Hallowe'en feast! So many pasties and sweets Sugary and sour!" Quirrell yelled, "A troll is in the basement!" The look upon his face meant We'd go back to the tower Then Harry said, "What about That girl Hermione?" I said, "Okay, but We better not get caught!" "And if I recall," he said, "Then she's in the bathroom. She doesn't know, so we're The one chance she's got!" We entered the bathroom And there was Hermione Panicking under One of the sinks And if I recall, Harry said, "Try to distract it!" And jumped on the troll without Stopping to think So I yelled, "Hang on! I'll save you, Hermione!" Recalling what she said, "You have to pronunciate!" If I recall, I made The troll's club go straight up Then I said, "That's how You levitate!" (And the rest, as they say, is history.) Cheers! -stickbook From richasi at azlance.com Wed Apr 23 01:28:00 2003 From: richasi at azlance.com (Richasi) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 21:28:00 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP and Les Miserables In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55929 > Okay, so I was recently skimming my ratty old copy of Les > Miserables, and I kept noticing similarities with HP. Not in > a "Hey, JKR is ripping off Hugo" sort of way, but in the "Hmm, check > out the common themes and archetypes" sort of way. Actually, i found this quite stimulating. I'm not in the same camp as many of the other folks here so I won't even begin to debate this but I do see similarities between Les Mis and HP. Though, the child-is-a-slave bit is nothing new really. I have one question though, and it is Off-Topic somewhat. Who in the HP universe is Javert? ;) Richasi From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 23 01:40:23 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 18:40:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What is Canon? and STAR WARS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030423014023.16967.qmail@web20006.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55930 --- The Fox wrote: >> Lucas has actually called the novels "glorified fan > fiction". This is > pretty rich, considering he's the one doing the > glorifying, but there you > go. :-) This includes the novelizations of the > films themselves, so > strictly speaking the Star Wars canon presently > consists only of the five > films. I thought I recalled something like that. > This makes every bit as much sense as considering > the Harry Potter canon > presently to consist only of the four books[1], and > not the films. You've > got canon in one medium, and you've got material in > another medium based on > the original canon material. Only one of them can > be right, when they > disagree. See, I tend to think of HP as a "books-only" canon. If it's not in the books, it's not canon. Though it can (like Lily's last name) be generally accepted. I'll accept it as fact, but not canon, if that makes sense. > [1] I'm less comfortable including the schoolbooks, > and *even* less > comfortable including statements made in interviews > -- but at least in this > fandom, it's a safe bet that our storyteller won't > change horses in > mid-stream. I believe JKR has planned this all > through; I no longer believe > George Lucas ever had a spiral notebook. I believe GL may have had a plan. But it sure isn't the one he carried out. Heck, doesn't the script (description, not dialog) for ANH, refer to Leia as appx. sixteen and Luke as eighteen? I've heard tons of rumors for what he originally planned, but I don't know how truthful they are. However, I love the ESB revelation. I mean, I never cared one way or the other until the prequels came out. But then, after watch AOTC, I watched ROTJ. It was like watching an entirely different movie. There were so many more layers. I sit there and notice every hesitation on Vader's part. And, while watching, I called him "Anakin." I'd never done that before. For me it was just so cool. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Wed Apr 23 01:47:07 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 01:47:07 -0000 Subject: HP and Les Miserables In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55931 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richasi" wrote: > > Okay, so I was recently skimming my ratty old copy of Les > > Miserables, and I kept noticing similarities with HP. Not in > > a "Hey, JKR is ripping off Hugo" sort of way, but in the "Hmm, check > > out the common themes and archetypes" sort of way. > > Actually, i found this quite stimulating. I'm not in the same camp > as many of the other folks here so I won't even begin to debate > this but I do see similarities between Les Mis and HP. Though, > the child-is-a-slave bit is nothing new really. Well, when it comes right down to it, I think both Harry and Cosette are direct literary descendants of Cinderella. > > I have one question though, and it is Off-Topic somewhat. > Who in the HP universe is Javert? ;) Good question. There doesn't seem to be a direct parallel. In the past, some posters have compared Snape to Javert, and they do share some characteristics. So it Snape is both Valjean and Javert, that makes him his own worst enemy and persecutor. Which fits really well, if you think about it. :-) Of course, this raises the question of whether Snape will end up like Valjean -- learning to love and coming to peace with himself; or like Javert -- succumbing to despair and suicide when his world view is overturned. They both end up dead, so things aren't looking too good for poor Severus, are they? Marina Rusalka rusalka at ix.netcom.com From suzchiles at pobox.com Wed Apr 23 01:55:13 2003 From: suzchiles at pobox.com (Suzanne Chiles) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 18:55:13 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP and Les Miserables In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55932 Richasi ponders: > I have one question though, and it is Off-Topic somewhat. > Who in the HP universe is Javert? ;) > > Richasi Well, I think Snape is quite Javert-ish when it comes to Harry. ;-) Suzanne From grace701 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 23 02:06:33 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 02:06:33 -0000 Subject: Some FF: Dumbledore and Scabbers, was Re: Worried about Hermione/others In-Reply-To: <20030422210837.13149.qmail@web80505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55933 Heidi wrote: > So it's possible to engage in only a tiny bit of > "connecting the dots" to conclude that Peter was able > to learn a lot about the Weasley family... and more > frightening than that, Peter did have opportunities > aplenty to put spells on members of the family that he > could take advantage of if he needed to do so later. > > Have you ever seen The Manchurian Candidate? Would it > be so farfetched to conclude that Peter did something > similar to Ron or to Percy? > > I once wrote a smidge of fanfic about this > (http://www.livejournal.com/users/heidi8/47382.html), > and am pasting a bit of it here: > > > The inquisitor goggled at the words spilling from the > Gryffindor's > mouth. Harry Potter's best friend, this child was, and > he'd been > seeking out Death Eaters? And not just to spy on them > either? He > gulped and tried a new question - one he'd asked many > times at Death > Eater Induction Ceremonies, but had never before asked > a prisoner. > > "So, when did you first realise that you were evil?" > > "Well, my brother Percy got this rat when he was about > six years > old - maybe a little younger. I was almost two then, > so I don't > really remember, but Percy told me recently that the > Rat, Scabbers, > used to follow me around all the time. And as long as > I could > remember, this man would come to me in my dreams - at > least, then, I > thought I was dreaming - and talk to me about power > and money and > all the wonderful things I deserved to have. He used a > wand to > conjure up wonderful images for me - it was only later > that I > learned that he'd been taking my parents' wands in the > evenings and > putting them back before they woke." The prisoner's > eyes got a > little misty at this point, and the Death Eater > himself felt a > twinge of nostalgia at the boy's story. > > The boy went on, talking about how he'd reaslied after > his third > year at Hogwarts that the man and the rat were one and > the same, and > that the things the man had said to him in his dreams > were all > things the man - Pettigrew, who the Death Eater knew > as the Dark > Lord's left hand - wanted him to do for his own > reasons. He didn't > really remember the dreams themselves during his > waking hours, but > the things the man had said to him stayed with him > constantly. > > He didn't see the man while his brother was at school, > although he > didn't make the connection then, but during the > summers, especially > the year before he started Hogwarts, Ron had learned > through the > dreams that he should befriend Harry Potter when he > got to Hogwarts, > as they would be in the same year - that he should not > fight with > him, but rather support him in everything, and they'd > be good > friends. During his first year, the man was at > Hogwarts with him and > said that it was very important that he help Harry get > to the > Philosopher's Stone. > > "After I learned that Scabbers was an animagus, I > didn't want to > remember anything he'd said to me, even though I knew > rationally > that it made sense - that the Dark Lord was powerful > and would be victorious, things like that. But like I > said, nobody belived me - > not even Scabbers - I mean Wormtail. I sent him a > letter and he > owled me back and accused me of being a spy. He never > realised how > successful his teaching of me was! And it was great - > he was > absolutely right, too. I want power and success and I > hate being > poor, and I think you guys are the right people to > help me get it! > Can you untie me now?" I didn't snip properly or enough, but I just have to say that this is something that I've *always* thought about. How can Peter Pettigrew not have tried to do something to brainwash Percy or Ron, or any of the Weasleys at that! Wormtail has proven that he isn't stupid when it comes to be a conniving, greedy person. If he did what he did to Bertha Jorkins then the possibility that he talked to Percy or Ron in their sleep isn't out of the question, at least not for me. I think that JKR had Scabbers choose the Weasleys for more than one reason and I'll be waiting. Greicy From suzchiles at pobox.com Wed Apr 23 01:53:46 2003 From: suzchiles at pobox.com (Suzanne Chiles) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 18:53:46 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What is Canon? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55934 The Fox said: > > Lucas has actually called the novels "glorified fan fiction". This is > pretty rich, considering he's the one doing the glorifying, but there you > go. :-) This includes the novelizations of the films themselves, so > strictly speaking the Star Wars canon presently consists only of the five > films. > > This makes every bit as much sense as considering the Harry Potter canon > presently to consist only of the four books[1], and not the > films. You've > got canon in one medium, and you've got material in another > medium based on > the original canon material. Only one of them can be right, when they > disagree. Actually, it doesn't make sense at all. You *must* consider the original of the work. Star Wars originated as film, and for that reason, the Star Wars canon may only consist of the films, especially with Lucas' disclaimer. Harry Potter, on the other hand, originated as literature, and for that reason, canon must be restricted to the published books, of which there are four at present. I'm inclined to include the schoolbooks, as they were authored by JKR. My opinions, and they are opinions, are based on my understanding of the tenets of both film and literary criticism. Personally, I find (and keep) the fan fiction as a completely separate being, bearing no resemblance to canon whatsoever. Suzanne From amani at charter.net Wed Apr 23 02:08:02 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 22:08:02 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP and Les Miserables References: Message-ID: <006f01c3093d$2c686500$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55935 Marina: > Okay, so I was recently skimming my ratty old copy of Les > Miserables, and I kept noticing similarities with HP. Not in > a "Hey, JKR is ripping off Hugo" sort of way, but in the "Hmm, check > out the common themes and archetypes" sort of way. Richasi: Actually, i found this quite stimulating. I'm not in the same camp as many of the other folks here so I won't even begin to debate this but I do see similarities between Les Mis and HP. Though, the child-is-a-slave bit is nothing new really. I have one question though, and it is Off-Topic somewhat. Who in the HP universe is Javert? ;) Me: Oh, this is just fascinating... From a purely "who's the villain" standpoint, Voldemort would be. And the more I think about it, he /does/ have certain similarities with Javert. He's obsessive about his system of justice, in essence who should live and who shouldn't, despite being born from the very type of people he hates. I find Voldemort to be extremely fanatical, especially about his belief of superiority over muggles and muggle-born, despite his muggle heritage. And Javert's defining characteristic is his sense of justice and superiority over low-class criminals (even the ones who have done nothing more than broken a window and stolen some bread), though he was born from that same type of group. --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Zarleycat at aol.com Wed Apr 23 02:17:33 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 02:17:33 -0000 Subject: Some FF: Dumbledore and Scabbers, was Re: Worried about Hermione/others In-Reply-To: <20030422210837.13149.qmail@web80505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55936 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, heidi wrote: > --- Susanne wrote: > > > Maybe he's just really sure Pettigrew didn't ever > > attempt to > > change back to human form during his time at the > > Weasleys or > > at Hogwarts, for some reason? > > > I can't see how sure of that he can be, given that > there is some canon support for the argument that > Pettigrew not only turned back into a wizard on > occasion, he also spoke (i.e. possibly said spells, > etc). > That canon support is in PoA, when he's changed back > into a wizard and his voice is not unused-sounding, > but high and squeaky and not particularly unusual in > its speech patterns and pauses, like Harry notes > Sirius' is. I think you're on thin ice here. The assumption seems to be that everyone's voice will sound the same after a long time of unuse. Why couldn't someone's voice sound high and squeaky after not being used for a long time? And, I don't know that comparing Peter (12 years as a rat) with Sirius (12 years undergoing daily mental torture) is a good comparison. Sirius not only did not have steady interaction with other humans, he was under constant guard by Dementors. Peter's voice may very well be high and squeaky, but at least he had the occasion to be exposed to normal speech by the humans around him. So, he very well may have retained normal speech patterns. > Further, there is canon evidence that Pettigrew spent > three to four years in the Weasley household before > Percy took him off to school (again, PoA, Ron's speech > in the Shack), and of course, even while Percy was at > school, Peter likely summered at the Weasleys (as we > know from CoS that students do not stay at Hogwarts > for the summer). Thus, Peter spent a considerable > amount of time in a house with access to wands, wands > which nobody would think to conceal from a rat - even > before Percy had one, Molly and Arthur did. > > So it's possible to engage in only a tiny bit of > "connecting the dots" to conclude that Peter was able > to learn a lot about the Weasley family... and more > frightening than that, Peter did have opportunities > aplenty to put spells on members of the family that he > could take advantage of if he needed to do so later. > Well, I suppose that can be true. They must have been subtle spells, as I can't imagine Molly not picking up on a marked change in behavior of one of her children. Marianne From grace701 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 23 02:25:17 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 02:25:17 -0000 Subject: Worried about Hermione/others...Truth, SHIPs, and Rita Skeeter (OOP mention) In-Reply-To: <20030422223640.60144.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55937 Margaret Thomas wrote: > Changing the subject to worry for Hermione in OotP... > > Yes, Hermione plainly is *at risk* as a Muggle (as CoS > demonstrates), particularly one who has strong ties > with Harry. Riddlemort targeted her once already -- > and that was *before* Rita Skeeter published her > friendship / possible romance with Harry. It may be > safe to assume that Ginny mentioned Hermione and Ron, > along with Harry, while she confided in Diary!Riddle. > > If, as discussed in multiple previous posts, JKR took > inspiration for Hermione's name from Shakespeare's "A > Winter's Tale," AND JKR commented that readers don't > seem to be concerned about Hermione's potential > demise, I think we can anticipate that Hermione will > find herself in some sort of extreme peril. Something > that will separate her (and her abilities) from Harry > & Ron in some way -- not unlike being petrified in > CoS, but likely more severe. I'll go so far as to > speculate that this "separation" may involve Harry & > Ron believing she's dead / irretrievable and (possibly > -- heaven forbid) be a nail-biter we have to endure > between one book and the next. Could be something as > straightforward as a kidnapping or as complicated as a > spell / hex. > > Not only would Harry & Ron be shocked / devastated, > they would have to muddle through without her -- and > she would become a very personal "cause" for bringing > Voldemort down. Should any R->Hr / H->Hr SHIP come > into play, that would add further dimension -- or > perhaps spur that SHIP to take full definition. > > At the same time, I think JKR will keep the trio > intact at the end of Book 7. So, although Hermione > may be in jeopardy, I feel confident about her rescue > / ultimate survival. I agree with everything you said Margaret. Voldemort knows who Hermione is there's no way to change my opinion. He must have heard about her through the Daily Prophet or Witch Weekly; from Wormtail or even better from Crouch JR!Moody who knows Hermione at a better level than Wormtail. We know that Crouch Jr!Moody was in contact with Voldemort throughout his stay at Hogwarts. He must have told him that Harry is receiving help for the tasks from his bestfriend Hermione Granger who is none other than a Mudblood. Voldemort will use Hermione as the bait that'll hook Harry. As I wrote in a previous post, Harry won't sit back and wait to see what'll happen if something happens to Hermione. He'll be forced to search Voldemort which will be exactly what Voldemort wants. He'll be killing two birds with one stone: Hermione, a mudblood, and Harry, his arch-nemesis. It's a perfect plot, imo, and hopefully Voldemort is thinking along the same lines. Speaking of SHIPping, I think that students at Hogwarts must have been thinking something was going on between Harry and Hermione when Ron wasn't speaking to Harry. From Harry's POV, it seems that they spent all their time together without Ron. As though he were giving them space, who wouldn't start wondering at least a little bit. I know I would. Greicy, instigating another H/H topic ;) From Zarleycat at aol.com Wed Apr 23 02:39:02 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 02:39:02 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Scabbers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55938 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "maria_kirilenko" wrote: > Marianne asked: > > >Why would it have mattered whether or not Peter attempted to change > >back to human form while at the Weasleys? If he did, obviously > >Molly never saw it happen or never came across a strange man roaming > >around the house. So, Dumbledore may have assumed that Peter > >remained in his rat form. And, after PoA, he's gone off to > >Voldemort, and Ron knows ho he is, so chances are Peter's not going > >to go back to the Weasleys. > > Because there is a theory (can someone clarify *what*, exactly, it > is?) that Peter Pettigrew did not, in fact, transform when nobody was > around, but transformed in the middle of the night, when everybody > was asleep, and either Imperio'd the children, or just had meaningful > talks with them about good and evil, namely, about the absence of a > distiction between them. In brief, messed with their minds. Or > something. I must have missed this discussion. Point me in the right direction to show me where the evidence exists that Peter Imperio'd one or more of the Weasleys. And, what would be Peter's motivation? Voldemort was almost non-existent for most of those years. What would make Peter risk discovery to use the Imperious Curse on kids? To what end, when he had no Master to serve? > But anyway, the fact remains that for 13 years, a *Death Eater*, who > was responsible for a most atrocious murder, was Percy's and Ron's > *pet*. That's something parents should know about, don't you think? > > Does that answer your question? No, not really. I probably didn't make myself clear. Obviously, having a DE lounging around the kitchen is not something one would want. My point was that, once Dumbledore knew about Scabbers' real identity, Peter was long gone on his way back to Voldemort. So, is there a pressing reason to tell the Weasleys that the rat that used to be in their house, but now is gone, was Pettigrew - especially if you have no proof on hand to back up that statement? And, if, as Headmaster, all of the Weasley children seem perfectly normal, do you make the judgement that perhaps it's not worth throwing everyone into an uproar over something you can't prove to them? > What interests me more is whether Hermione's parents knew that she > was Petrified in CoS. Or whether the Weasleys ever learned about Ron's broken leg. > >Maybe this is evidence of Dumbledore the Manipulator, or maybe it's > >Dumbledore trying to protect Sirius. After all, saying Scabbers is > >Peter Pettigrew inevitably would lead to questions about Sirius, and > >maybe Dumbledore figured it would be best to keep that quiet until > >such time as Peter can be presented alive to the authorities as > >proof > >of Sirius' innocence. Plus, since everyone is so convinced of > >Sirius' > >guilt, this whole Peter-as-Animagus story sounds like a fairy tale. > >Unless you have the man/rat right in front of you as proof. > Well, I'm inclined to think that Molly and Arthur would have believed > Dumbledore, had he told them the whole story. Molly Weasley certainly > seemed OK with Sirius at the end of GoF, although he gave her a nasty > shock at first. Although, I have to believe that as soon as Ron got home for the summer, Molly grabbed him by the ear and dragged him in front of Arthur and said, "Why do you seem to be more than just a nodding acquaintance of Sirius Black?" Marianne From jmmears at comcast.net Wed Apr 23 03:36:46 2003 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 03:36:46 -0000 Subject: The timeline on the DVD *confirms* canon; In-Reply-To: <006401c308cf$ed524470$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55939 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pennylin" wrote: I (Jo S.) wondered: > > <<< importance, unless it's just not been revealed yet. I really didn't > care until this DVD timeline issue came up, and I still don't get > why it is so very important to you that she be younger by a matter > of months rather than older. Did I miss a post explaining that? If > so, please direct me to it because I have a feeling that I'm missing > *something*.>>>>>>>>> Penny replied: > I do think that Hermione's age gives us some clues as to how the Magical Quill operates, which is why I've always found the topic of interest. Of course, I thought that it operated on a calendar year, and Barb quite rightly pointed out that this can't work with Cedric. Which takes us back to the Magical Quill operating on: the fall equinox, some other autumnal date or that Hermione was just a quirk in the system. So, unfortunately, we're still not completely happy with the new "canon" on that particular score (to the extent you consider the DVD timeline to be "canon" that is). I'm also fascinated with the operation of the Magical Quill which is a big part of why the issue of the DVD timeline has caught my interest in a way that Hermione's age never did in earlier discussions. As I mentioned in my earlier post, Harry gets his first Hogwarts letter about one week before his eleventh birthday. If you assume (as I sort of did) that everyone gets their letters shortly before they turn eleven, then the 1979 birthdate for Hermione would have her receiving her letter almost a year in advance of her actual arrival at Hogwarts. This "works" for me for two reasons. First, if Hermione had nearly a whole year for her Muggle parents to adjust to the idea and obtain her books and supplies, then I can easily believe that she learned all the books "by heart" and has had time to practice and master some simple spells (on top of mastering everything she needed to learn at her last year in her English "Muggle school", of course). Clearly if her birthdate is 1980 as the timeline states, she couldn't possibly have gotten the letter a week before her eleventh birthday; she was already at Hogwarts then. With this scenario we can't figure out when the heck she got the letter. This just bugs me. Secondly, all the available canon implies that Hermione is the product of an English school and an English family. Not Scottish, certainly not American, and not Portugese as some posters seem to have suggested. As Ali confirmed in her post ::waves to Ali:: it's overwhelmingly standard in that system for the age cut-off to be September 1 with virtually *no* exceptions. IMO JKR indirectly backs that up by *always* having the Hogwarts Express depart on Sept. 1, suggesting (to me, anyway) that she's attempting to reflect the standard British/English calendar. The school year ending in July also supports this calendar. If Hogwarts accepts all the Muggle-born first years who have spent their school careers up to age 11 in that system, it just doesn't make sense to me to have a different cut-off. I also think that the fact that Angelina Johnson having just turned 17 in late October (GoF, chapter 16) supports the Sept 1 cutoff if she is a 6th year student at that time. We should have that confirmed if she's a seventh year in OOP. Now, if the cutoff is in fact the autumnal equinox, as some have suggested, then that *could* solve the problem, but that's pure speculation at this point, and I don't want to assume that without some real evidence. Anyway, I just really want a description of how that Quill works and when the letters go out. I don't know why I'm inclined to be so "Loony" on this topic, since I'm completely bored by the "how many students" at Hogwarts discussion as well as most of the numerically based arguments. I really, really hope to get the details in a future book or interview, but still have the feeling that Hermione's birth year is still inconsistent at this point, and as such, feels Flint-y to me. Jo Serenadust, who wishes that JKR had made Hermione's birthday August 19 at this point From ZaraLyon at aol.com Wed Apr 23 04:08:01 2003 From: ZaraLyon at aol.com (aurigae_prime) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 04:08:01 -0000 Subject: SHIPping Attitudes // Hermione's Age In-Reply-To: <20030423003423.41448.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55940 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Petra Pan wrote: > > Well, at least one shipper somewhere > (can't for the life of me remember > exactly where in Potterdom) argued > that if Hermione is older than Harry > (or did she say Ron?) then they can't > become a couple...'cause that'd be too > 'ewww.' > > I really hope that there's more of a > basis for the interest in Hermione's > age than this but I've never seen it > articulated anywhere else either. > Anyone? Does this issue come up (more > than just in passing) anywhere else > with the kind of passion it usually > exhibits in shipping threads? > Well, I can only speak for myself, because it's an idea that would never hold up in a shipping debate, and one that applies equally to both sides of the Divide (though I'm an H/Hr who firmly believed that Hermione was the youngest, I'm fairly sure that there were a number of R/Hr supporters who agreed). At any rate. My "instinctive reading" of the four books told me that Hermione was the youngest, and that Hermione was not romantically interested in Ron. So having had one of the things I felt were fundamental to the books confirmed is suggestive to me that I have been reading the books properly. I know that this is completely illogical -- the one should have no bearing on the other -- but it does make me feel more confident in my judgements. I may turn out to be wrong about my SHIPping views, but in the meantime, when people in SHIP debates accuse my H/Hr comrades of "not reading the books properly" because we don't see Hr--->R, I can hold onto something that I did read correctly. Rhiannon the RavenSlyth From bard7696 at aol.com Wed Apr 23 04:11:23 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 04:11:23 -0000 Subject: Muggle-borns in the future and some other responses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55941 Tom wrote: > As for Pettigrew, it's my understanding that we have no canon to > indicate at all what houses Harry's parents or their friends were in. > We don't even know for sure that *James* was a Gryffindor, never mind > Pettigrew. Granted, Sirius seems to know where the Gryffindor Tower > entrance is in PoA, but technically, that doesn't mean anything. > After all, Harry and Ron now know where the Slytherin entrance is > thanks to their Polyjuice adventure in CoS. Those darn kids. ;-) > > -Tom There are really strong indications that James was a Gryffindor. JKR gave an interview where she was asked "What position did James play for Gryffindor?" and she said "Seeker." Not 100 percent, but a very strong indicator. I also maintain that to do the running around together that the Mauraders were doing, spending off-time learning Animagus spells, building up the kind of trust it takes to get into trouble together, all four would have to have been from the same house, especially considering the level of mistrust that must have been going on between the houses during the 1970s, when V-mort was at his peak. The passwords to the dormitories, the different class schedules, making it harder to use free time in class to plot, and the restrictions against wandering the halls all indicate that you'd have to be in the same house to do what the Mauraders did. I further submit that they weren't in Slytherin, notwithstanding the generalization at the beginning of PS/SS where Hagrid says "There wasn't a witch or wizard who went bad that was not in Slytherin." Obviously, he "knew" that Sirius went bad, so does that put Sirius in Slytherin? I don't think so, not with the way Black refers to Slytherins in GoF. "Snape was part of a gang of Slytherins that all became Death Eaters." (In the UK version, it is "part of" not "ran with") That does not indicate someone talking about his own house. The emnity between Snape and Sirius also indicates different houses. I chalk up Hagrid's comment to just plain overexaggerating. Then we have the connection from James to Harry being in the same house, Lupin rooting for a Gryffindor victory, and there is more circumstantial evidence. 100 percent that the Mauraders were Gryffindor? No, but I'd say the indications all point that direction, which is why I said, in the first place, strong indications Pettigrew was a Gryffindor. One thing, I'm pretty damn sure he wasn't a Slytherin, because I doubt Black and the Potters would have trusted him as their secret keeper if that were true. Darrin -- Part of not ran with is NOT a good band name From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Wed Apr 23 04:26:15 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 04:26:15 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Scabbers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55942 I wrote about the "Pettigrew casting spells on unsuspecting Weasley children" theory. Marianne asked: >I must have missed this discussion. Point me in the right direction >to show me where the evidence exists that Peter Imperio'd one or >more of the Weasleys. And, what would be Peter's motivation? >Voldemort was almost non-existent for most of those years. What >would make Peter risk discovery to use the Imperious Curse on kids? >To what end, when he had no Master to serve? I don't know when this point was first brought up, but Heidi briefly recapped it today in message # 55901: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/55901 >No, not really. I probably didn't make myself clear. Obviously, >having a DE lounging around the kitchen is not something one would >want. My point was that, once Dumbledore knew about Scabbers' real >identity, Peter was long gone on his way back to Voldemort. So, is >there a pressing reason to tell the Weasleys that the rat that used >to be in their house, but now is gone, was Pettigrew - especially if >you have no proof on hand to back up that statement? And, if, as >Headmaster, all of the Weasley children seem perfectly normal, do >you make the judgement that perhaps it's not worth throwing everyone >into an uproar over something you can't prove to them? I'm guessing that Dumbledore asked himself this question at the end of PoA and came to the same conclusion as you. But most people have moral qualms about stuff like that. I, as a logically thinking (most of the time, anyway) person, fail to see why kids in America are allowed to have sex, smoke and drive from the age of 16 or 18, but are forbidden to drink alcohol until they turn 21. Anyway, even though logic, maybe, possibly, speaks against it, I'm sure Molly and Arthur will be absolutely *furious* when they find out about the whole affair, and especially when they find out that it's been concealed from them for over a year. Fear the Wrath of Molly Weasley, Dumbledore... I wrote: > What interests me more is whether Hermione's parents knew that she > was Petrified in CoS. Marianne continued: >Or whether the Weasleys ever learned about Ron's broken leg. Nah, a broken leg is nothing. At a school where they teach magic, accidents are bound to happen. Of course, the most interesting thing about the broken leg is the circumstances, but that's a whole another story. The basilisk is different, though. That can't be considered as a mere accident, and is also something the parents should know about... it's their kid, after all. But somehow, I doubt that they were ever told about it. Once it became obvious she wasn't anywhere near death, Dumbledore let out a great big sigh of joy at not having to contact anyone, probably. He isn't a very *moral* person when it comes to little things like that, is he? >Although, I have to believe that as soon as Ron got home for the >summer, Molly grabbed him by the ear and dragged him in front of >Arthur and said, "Why do you seem to be more than just a nodding >acquaintance of Sirius Black?" LOL! I would *love* to see that scene written! Maria From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Wed Apr 23 04:40:35 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 04:40:35 -0000 Subject: What is Canon? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55943 Haggridd wrote: > I find it difficult to go beyond the principle that canon=the books; > the books=canon, period. Should there be any books after HP VII (I > would endure the Cruciatus Curse if it would persuade JKR to > write "Hogwarts, a History"or to publish her secret notes), then they > too will be part of canon. It is an aphorism that an author's works > speak for themselves. Even the author's comments aren't strictly > canon. It is only because JKR is so very careful in speaking about > the books and the Wizarding world that her interviews have approached > the status of canon. Even so, Maria has felt compelled to qualifiy > her acceptance of this. Aie, I was using the word "canon" very loosely, sorry. I know it's defined as "an author's original works." What I was *trying* to say is that I count JKR's interview statements (some of them, anyway) as *facts* about the Potterverse. I do differentiate, or at least try to, between her statements, as I wrote in my previous post. I don't really question that Lily was was in Gryffindor, or that her maiden name was Evans, or that Susan Bones's grandparents were killed by Voldemort. But they aren't canon. I'll be more careful with that word in the future. What I don't really understand is why people tend to dismiss the schoolbooks as canon. Can someone explain that to me? > Derivative works-- such as the movies, videogames, fanfics, HP > coloring books, HP samplers, HP-themed Snellen visual acuity charts, > the labels on the wrappers of these HP candies that have been on the > market-- cannot now nor ever will they be canon. Oui. I think most people agree on that, too. > That said, it doesn't mean that we cannot enjoy these derivative > works and speculate to our heart content about all kinds of > interesting points. And we surely do, do we not? Oh, of course! I like fanfic, for example. I especially enjoy RL/SB stories, knowing that I'm never getting them in canon... And isn't it interesting about Mimblewimble? Someone brought it up a couple of months ago, and I wonder whether anyone actually *believes* that Vernon Dursley actually *pronounced* the "word" (again, I'm using the term loosely ) Mimblewimble, and that it's a spell... Hmmm, I think we may have to start a "We want 'Hogwarts, a History'" society. In a few years, anyway. Anyone care to think of an acronym? Maria, wondering why she can't ever type Mimblewimble correctly without having to fix typos... again, darn it. From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Wed Apr 23 04:43:11 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 04:43:11 -0000 Subject: What is Canon? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55944 Melissa wrote: Canon is anything that actually happens in the books or that Rowling says in her interviews. Kathryn replied: Anyway - that's a debatable point actually. If it's in the book it's definitely canon - if JKR says it, well it's probably true obviously, but is it canon? Apart from anything else she may change her mind about anything she says between now and finishing book 7 so then the books might contradict her interviews. Personally while I obviously pay attention to what she says (since it's her universe and all) if it ain't in the books it ain't canon - as far as I'm concerned. Katy replied: But i believe that the author's interviews/comments ARE canon UNLESS they are contradicted by the books Level #1 - The Books Level #2 - What that author says Level #3 - The Movies Level #4 - Comic books, cartoons and god knows what else they'll end up coming out with in the future ;) I comment: I am actually of the opinion that interviews are almost *more* valid than the books. Why? Because the interviews are direct from the horse's mouth. In the books, you're gonna have typos and contradictions and all sorts of minor errors that are generated as a result of the writing process. `International Federation' vs. `Confederation:' that sort of thing. When writing, she's got to worry about plot and consistency and character development and all sorts of other writer- stuff. Same as the whole `first floor' vs. `ground floor' thing with Myrtle's bathroom in CoS. For instance, in the first edition of GoF, she screwed up the reverse order of the spells in Priori Incantantem. We know that it was a mistake, because it was fixed in subsequent editions. This is an example of what I mean. A mistake like this doesn't *drastically* alter the series... even if it was left there, the only thing that changes is that we find out James died after Lily. Big deal. This is, IMHO, an example of oversight. And with the Weasley cousin that we'll probably never meet. She had to enlarge Rita Skeeter's role because something involving the cousin caused a plot hole in the middle of her first draft of GoF. But this stuff is not series- altering. It's a minor thing that she didn't work out perfectly beforehand, and so caused a problem when the actual writing happened. But the plot hole with the Weasley cousin hasn't altered what's `going-to-happen.' If I'm not mistaken, JKR has been quite clear in the interviews that she knows all of the important stuff that's going to happen already. In other words, all of the major plot points and developments have already been decided, she says that she knows who is going to die, and who'll survive, and all of it. I read the other day in an interview that she's even written the last chapter of Book 7 already, in a kind of epilogue-style, so she knows not only the outcome, but what's going to happen to the survivors after the series is done. So, all of this has been worked out in her head, but not put to the page yet. So, when JKR says something in an interview, I listen. Because the elusive `what's-going-to-happen' is canon for her already. You know, she knows this world so well that if she says it, and it contradicts the books, then I personally am inclined to take her word over the books. Why? Because she knows what's coming, and that makes all the difference to me. I have this personal idea that I'm sure some others probably share: by the end of the series, a great deal of what we consider `canonical fact' from PS/SS and CoS is going to turn out to have been a bunch of hooey. And so, what we're calling `canon' now, as well as many of the arguments that we're presently making on- list, are based on faulty information. This is why I agree with those who say that the books *in reverse order* (from GoF backwards) are actually canon `proper:' because each book will reveal something new, and is likely to contradict something in a previous book. I believe that she has (and by her own admission) laid the groundwork for things to come through foreshadowing. This is one of the reasons that I buy Evil!McGonagall - but I don't think that's got a hope of being canon until the very end. So, until then, McGonagall is Dumbledore's trusted deputy, because that's what canon tells us. But when we find out that he suspected her the whole time, then that aspect of canon is inverted on its head and officially changed. In other words, I think that the red-herrings aren't simply contained in each book individually. They're, IMHO, series-spanning, and the revelations won't come until the very end. I have this problem, for instance, with flints, and specifically the namesake of `flint,' Marcus Flint. I clearly read an interview in which JKR told someone that Marcus Flint stayed back a year. I've never read an interview where she admitted that it was a mistake. Now, I'm not saying that this second interview doesn't exist, simply that I haven't been able to find it. So, until I do read the interview where she says that his inclusion was a mistake, I'm going to insist that he stayed back the year, and that his staying back was not a mistake. So, that's why I (and I believe I'm probably in a tiny minority here) am almost tempted to suggest that the interviews are *more* important than the books themselves, because of the `what's-going-to- happen' factor, of which only the author is aware, but which has implications for what is contained in the books themselves. As a side note, the parallel with Star Wars is slightly different, because Lucas' approach was to give us the `what's-going-to-happen' stuff first. What we're seeing now is the preamble, and since we already know the outcome, nothing super-startling will arise. But with the books, all the stuff that's yet to come will take precedence. Granted, this doesn't help us out now so much, because we've got to have something to nitpick on. :-) And so, I understand (and agree) with everyone who insists that the books (in reverse order) should be the first circle of canon, while retaining my right to secretly believe that if an interview contradicts the books, it's the writer's word that takes priority. -Tom, who thinks that `HP and the Sorceror's Stone' is a far lamer, Americanized title than `HP and the Philosopher's Stone,' and who, like Annemehr, refers to that book as PS/SS when quoting it. :-) From hp_lexicon at yahoo.com Wed Apr 23 06:15:33 2003 From: hp_lexicon at yahoo.com (hp_lexicon) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 06:15:33 -0000 Subject: The timeline on the DVD *confirms* canon; In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55945 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "serenadust" wrote: > Secondly, all the available canon implies that Hermione is the > product of an English school and an English family. Not Scottish, > certainly not American, and not Portugese as some posters seem to > have suggested. As Ali confirmed in her post ::waves to Ali:: it's > overwhelmingly standard in that system for the age cut-off to be > September 1 with virtually *no* exceptions. Some of you might be interested in an essay which was just added to the Lexicon by Diana Summers entitled "British Schooling in the 1970s" in which the author briefly discusses this point. It's located here: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/essay-british-schooling.html No, this won't convince anyone of anything, but it does speak the to "no exceptions" claims which have been brought up. Another point to consider is that, as far as Hogwarts goes, Muggle schooling is apparently irrelevent, based on Rowling's comments in an interview. Steve From drednort at alphalink.com.au Wed Apr 23 06:51:09 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 16:51:09 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The timeline on the DVD *confirms* canon; In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3EA6C47D.19664.191A2B9@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 55946 On 23 Apr 2003 at 6:15, hp_lexicon wrote: > Some of you might be interested in an essay which was just added to > the Lexicon by Diana Summers entitled "British Schooling in the > 1970s" in which the author briefly discusses this point. It's > located here: > > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/essay-british-schooling.html > > No, this won't convince anyone of anything, but it does speak the > to "no exceptions" claims which have been brought up. Is there actually any real interest in this? Because early next week I should be able to find and provide citations on early entry and acceleration in British primary schools during the 1980s - I have to do some research and I'll be accessing a whole bunch of journals on the education of gifted kids in the UK including (probably) a bunch from the 1980s. If this is a real issue of dispute, it probably won't be very hard for me to find non-anecdotal published evidence that a child in the UK in the 1980s could be ahead of the normal age for their years. I may even be able to find statistics that indicates how common it was (not sure on that - I have seen an article like that, but I can't remember it's precise details - it may have been talking about one region). I'm happy to do it, if there's any interest - I need to be going through the journals anyway and I doubt this will add much to the time I will be spending. But I want to see if people seriously want this stuff. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "Almighty Ruler of the all; Whose power extends to great and small; Who guides the stars with steadfast law; Whose least creation fills with awe; Oh grant thy mercy and thy grace; To those who venture into space." From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Apr 23 07:31:48 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 07:31:48 -0000 Subject: What is Canon? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55947 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall" wrote: > Melissa wrote: > Canon is anything that actually happens in the books or that Rowling > says in her interviews. > > ...edited... > > I comment: > I am actually of the opinion that interviews are almost *more* valid > than the books. > > Why? Because the interviews are direct from the horse's mouth. > > ...edited... > > -Tom, bboy_mn: The problem with interviews is that JKR's answers aren't always clear-cut. For example, the 'does the wizard choose his animagus form' question. In the 2 or 3 interviews I've read on the subject, the belief that a wizard does NOT choose is only implied. It seems a reasonable assumption from what she said, but she never said point-blank in no uncertain terms that a wizard does not choose. So what happens then? We are stuck with the same problem we have with many of the issues in the book, we have to use reasonable analysis and the application of our imaginations to create a reasonable extension or interpretation of the wizard world. The problem is, we frequently do not reach the same conclusions from analysing the same information, and of course, that's what makes our discussions so lively. I do take JKR's statements as 'gospel', but it is at times ambiguous. Just a thought. bboy_mn From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Wed Apr 23 04:22:07 2003 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 04:22:07 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55948 Pip wrote: Harry certainly doesn't look like the Dursley's in the face or in colouring, but Petunia is always described as 'thin' or 'bony'. Harry is described as 'skinny'. He seems to have inherited his short, thin body type from his mothers side of the family. Me: I think it's canon that Harry looks like his father, but has his mother's eyes. There are numerous references to his striking resemblance to James, including seeing himself across the lake. Petunia is described as "horse-faced and bony" but that doesn't necessarily make her slight or skinny. imamommy From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Wed Apr 23 04:34:14 2003 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 04:34:14 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's innocence Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55949 Faith wrote: But now that it's been put to rest exactly what happened, and that Hadrig wasn't responsible, shouldn't he have had his name cleared, and wand restored? Me: I think DD would be hard-pressed to prove to the MoM what exactly happened in the CoS. After all, Riddle has disappeared, the diary has been obliterated (and given back to Malfoy), Ginny was knocked out for most of the time, and adults never want to listen to kids, anyway. Hagrid, therefore, may not be exonerated for opening the CoS the first time, though he is cleared in the second. BTW, I think the movie is very misleading and kind of dumb in this respect. The final scene with the whole school cheering for Hagrid *is not canon*. I doubt most of the students even knew Hagrid was accused and taken to Azkaban. So yes, he should have his wand restored, but it's never gonna happen with Fudge fudging up the ministry. My two knuts imamommy From rosebeth710 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 23 05:18:58 2003 From: rosebeth710 at yahoo.com (Rosebeth) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 22:18:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Animagi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030423051858.15628.qmail@web20503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55950 --- The Fox wrote: > I don't think the rat has the same cachet in the > wizarding world as it does > in ours. It's true that in our world, there are > those who keep pet rats -- > but two things are true in conjunction with that: > these are > specifically-bred pet rats, for one, and even given > this, there are plenty > of people who consider rats a disgusting and > inappropriate animal to be kept > as a pet. The same does not appear to be the case > in the wizarding world. > Nobody blinks at all at the fact that Ron's pet is a > rat; nobody has > anything to say about the fact that Neville's pet is > a toad. > Me: I do think that even in the WW rats are considered less than. In GF, When HRH bring Sirius food in cave outside of Hogsmead Sirius tells them that he had been living on rats. When they get back to the school Ron comments to Harry that Sirius must really like him because he had been eating rats. I also just had a thought as I was typing this that it was really ironic that Sirius survived by eating rats (Peter's Animagi form). Needs to be developed, but I'm putting it out there just anyway. Rosebeth __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From melodiousmonkey at yahoo.com.au Wed Apr 23 07:21:54 2003 From: melodiousmonkey at yahoo.com.au (melodiousmonkey) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 07:21:54 -0000 Subject: Ron's age, was Re: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's age In-Reply-To: <10675979198.20030422171555@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55951 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susanne wrote: > > > Hi, > > Tuesday, April 22, 2003, 4:24:34 PM, Kirstin wrote: > > > As a product of the Scottish education system born in > > September 1980, I'm well aware that the cut-off date for entry to > > the Scottish year group is March 1st in the year following the > > England/ Wales September deadline. > > And if this is the case we can start debating how old *Ron* > is? > Given that the WW does not pay a lot of attention to the muggle world, I don't see any reason why their cut-off dates have to follow anyone's. Maybe there is a completely different cut-off date, or a grey period where it's a case-by-case basis. Just a thought Monkey From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Apr 23 07:47:50 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 07:47:50 -0000 Subject: TBAY: /Rita. . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55952 "derannimer" : > > "Well, it just seems to me that she's going to wind up writing the > truth about Voldemort's return for Dumbledore in the next book." > > "*What?!*" > > "Well," says Derannimer defensively, "*someone's* got to, because the > Daily Prophet's sure not gonna. And Rita is the only journalist we > really know. And Hermione could blackmail her into it. And we know > that Rita dislikes the Ministry. And we can guess, from the OOP > summary, that Ministry plotlines figure heavily in OOP. And Harry > said of Fudge: 'He'll never keep Rita quiet. Not on a story like > this,' so it's even got *fore-shadowing.*" > > "*And,*" she adds, after a moment's thought. "It would be a *great* > boost for her career. 'Disgraced ex-Minister of Magic, Cornelius > Fudge.' Snappy start to a sentence, yes?" Rita Skeeter has *two* great stories! The return of Lord Voldemort AND the innosence of Sirius Black. She will do anything for a good story - spy on them as a bug if nothing else works... She *would* write of Sirius Black being innocent - that Voldemort has returned - in a series of articles... "Harry Potter's lunacy a warning from his scar?" "You-know-who has returned!" "Peter Pettigrew seen alive..." "Ministry threw an innocent man to Azkaban..." Rita Skeeter is one who'll do anything for a story; she'd most definately go for it - with or without co-operation. I think she is one of the neutrals! Now, 15-year old Harry comes to see that things aren't black&white, Rita Skeeter is most definately in the grey area. She's not Voldemort nor DE - but she isn't in the goodie-league either. She's just obsessed with her ambition of writing the greatest, most scandalous and amasing story ever... -- Finwitch From elmindreda8558 at aol.com Wed Apr 23 08:25:03 2003 From: elmindreda8558 at aol.com (jahanua) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 08:25:03 -0000 Subject: Trelawneys first true prediction. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55953 My theory is simple. There are two questions that seem to anwser themselves. First is about Trelawney's first true prediction, and second is how did Voldemort know to go after Harry in particular. It is obvious in many instances that Voldemort wanted Harry, not necessarily his parents. My theory is that Trelawney predicted the fall of Voldemort in connection to Harry Potter, and she did it in front of a death eater. "jahanua" From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Apr 23 08:35:39 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 08:35:39 -0000 Subject: Ron (was Re: Prefects who gain power) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55954 > --jenny from ravenclaw, > You know, that makes me think about Ron and how he and Percy really > are similar in certain ways. It makes sense that Percy wants to show > people how great a Weasley he can be. We've seen that he gets > embarrassed of his family just like Ron (remember when Fred and George > marched him over to eat Christmas dinner with the rest of them?). Ron > is very quick to get upset over what his family *doesn't* have and > it's possible Percy feels the same way and is an overachiever to make > up for it. > I don't think Ron's all _that_ upset about his poverty. Oh, he keeps _saying_ that he hates to be poor, complains about all the things he has, particularly of the things he _loves_ the most - like Scrabbers, or Hermione, or Harry, or his brothers... About Ron saying all these things he likes the least outloud... He's being openly emotional - people are _rarely_ satisfied with their current situation. He's the friend who can and does give negative feedback, but always about things that friend could change. also, constructive critisism. No doubt he's heard a dozen times over "What, you don't like X? Why didn't you say something? I could have..." from his family members - so he begun to *say* long time ago - just so that someone doesn't mistakenly think that he _likes_ being poor (even though he won't take charity)... Ron _does_ take other people's feelings into account; that Quidditch game _did_ cheer Harry up (unlike what Hermione thought it would do); he does shut up about his enthusiasm about the unforgivables on spiders out of respect to Harry's emotions; offers to make tea for Hagrid ("that's what Mom does when someone's upset")... -- Finwitch From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Wed Apr 23 00:59:01 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 00:59:01 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Avery/Rita. No, not like that. Please. Contains itty-bitty OOP reference. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55955 One of the heavy, old oak doors of the Royal George creaks open a little way, and the top of a head pokes round. The door slams. There's a squeal. The four people in the bar laugh heartily, their differences and/or acute paranoia momentarily forgotten. "Gotta love that Self-Slamming Charm," murmurs George, with a smirk. "Gets the tourists every time." >From the other side of the door a muffled grunting can be heard. There's a long pause, as the newcomer finally gets the door open. She takes a couple of steps forward, holding her face in her hand. There's a crash, as the newcomer trips over a flagstone which has raised itself out of the floor to welcome her. The TBay natives burst out laughing again, even Avery. He wasn't in much of a laughing mood, but the sight of someone smaller than himself writhing in agony always manages to put a smile on his face. The newcomer picks herself up rather angrily, but rethinks her demeanour after noticing Captain Cindy's Big Paddle. "That's a really nice paddle. Must have great aerodynamics, huh?" Captain Cindy growls softly. "Sorry. Sorry. I just wanted to say something about Rita Skeeter," the stranger mumbles through her fingers. "I was outside, trying to pluck up the courage to come in, and I couldn't help but overhear what you said just then ? I wasn't eavesdropping or anything um. Anyway. Rita Skeeter. All I wanted to say was that the idea of her suddenly turning embedded reporter for Dumbledore seems a little ? out of character." Avery sinks back down into his chair, wobbling slightly. For some reason the newcomer interprets this as a positive sign, and presses on, encouraged. "You see, JKR has said in various places that she really *likes* Rita Skeeter. However, I'd be willing to bet that it's not the same sort of affection she has for say ? Lupin, or Ron ? you know, because they're *nice* characters " (a sound much like the noise a can of worms makes when opened echoes through the Royal George. The stranger ignores it and carries on.) "She likes Rita because she's irritating. She's awkward. She doesn't make it easy for *anybody*. "Disgraced Ex-Minister of Magic Cornelius Fudge" might have a ring to it, but so does "Disgraced Former Hogwarts Headmaster and All-Round Bumbling Buffoon Albus Dumbledore" (maybe not quite as much of a ring to it). That awkwardness is the whole essence of her character. It's why she's funny. In places. And besides, isn't that just a bit too easy? As far as I can tell, one of the huge problems in OoP is going to be getting the wizarding populance to realise that Dumbledore is back. Even though the Daily Prophet won't run the story, if Rita breaks it independently, or through Witch Weekly, everyone is going to listen to her, aren't they? Even Molly Weasley is prepared to take Rita's word over Hermione's in GoF. Everyone believes her when she's telling lies ? oh!" "What?" asks Derannimer, a trifle irritably. "Sorry, it's your theory isn't it? Can I buy you a drink, by the way?" asks the stranger, in a blatant attempt to integrate herself. Captain Cindy clears her throat loudly. The stranger glances nervously over at George, who begins mixing another Black Russian. The stranger begins again. "The reason I said "Oh!" there was because something had just struck me. All the while my mouth has been running away with me, my brain has been frantically trying to work out how to talk my little theory round the fact that Rita was THERE on the windowsill, she heard it all about Voldemort coming back, and she's not exactly renowned for her ability to keep schtum, is she? Blackmail or no blackmail, there is no WAY she's going to sit tight on this one. She might not be working for Dumbledore as she does it, but you're so right. She's going to let people know as soon as she's de-beetled herself. And so we come back to "too easy", but I've just worked out a possibility. Everyone believes Rita's lies, right? But I don't think there was any occasion in GoF where she reported something that was absolutely truthful ? without any sort of embellishment. So, I'm wondering (that's code for "making it up as I go along") if she might be some sort of Cassandra figure ? you know, under some kind of curse whereby all her truthful reports are destined to be disbelieved " The stranger tails off and dares to glance up from the floor for the first time since she put her wallet back in her pocket. She looks around hopefully, with a bit of a stupid grin on her face. "I'm Kirstini, by the way" she says. "Would any of you like to hear my anti-Florence theory ?" ********************************************************************* Kirstini From Ali at zymurgy.org Wed Apr 23 09:34:59 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 09:34:59 -0000 Subject: The timeline on the DVD *confirms* canon; In-Reply-To: <3EA6C47D.19664.191A2B9@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55956 Steve of the Lexicon wrote re an essay on English schooling: >> > No, this won't convince anyone of anything, but it does speak the "no exceptions" claims which have been brought up. Shaun asked:- Is there actually any real interest in this? Shaun, on a personal note I'm interested. I can contemplate Hermione being an exception to the rule - what I can' contemplate is that we weren't made aware of it. I went to a private (Public) secondary school and there were 3 kids in the year who shouldn't have been there. I can still remember who they were, and how successful they were. They were the subject of constant jibes. My own brother managed to concertina his 5th and 6th year into one, so I certainly know it happens.But it doesn't happen without stick. Private schools do allow for greater flexibility, and Hogwarts is certainly not part of the normal State system. But, what private schools cannot take away is the fact that this is unusual. Unusual enough that we should know that Hermione is advanced. Ali From elfundeb at comcast.net Wed Apr 23 09:36:56 2003 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 05:36:56 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What is Canon? References: <032101c3090c$b781cae0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> Message-ID: <005901c3097b$e176ea00$9ddc5644@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 55957 Katy Cartee suggested: It seems like it would be a good idea to establish some kind of "canon rule" for the HP fandom now, so that it doesn't get confused later on, when even more merchandise is released and more interviews are given. I respond: It would be good to have a single definition of "canon" for use in the fandom . . . as long as it's *my* definition. I guess that won't work. Seriously, I think the real issue with defining "canon" is that different people with different purposes use the word "canon" to mean different things. Since not everyone is using the same definition, there will be different opinions of what qualifies as "canon". And part of it is simply that some people find what JKR says to be more believable and reliable than others do. For example, my primary interest is the books themselves, and therefore, I limit my definition of "canon" to the novels themselves, on the theory that literary analysis should consist of analysis of what's within the covers of the books. Even the schoolbooks are secondary to JKR's vision as expressed in the novels, though the schoolbooks undoubtedly elaborate and expand on certain facets of the world JKR created in the novels and provide useful information, for example, on the plight of werewolves, illuminating some of their themes. Basically, I value what's in the schoolbooks because they were written with due deliberation and intended to be complementary to the novels themselves. On the other hand, I find information contained in interviews and other JKR-approved sources to be uncanonical, even where the statement corrects an error in canon. To me, it's not canon until the error is corrected in a subsequent edition. (Tolkien was still correcting inconsistencies in LotR 15 years after it was published.) I'm reluctant to put much stock in anything JKR says in an interview because, among other things, (i) interviews are often part of a marketing campaign, and I think JKR is deliberately vague on many of her statements, and intentionally misleading on a couple (particularly when it comes to etymology), and (ii) until she finishes the last book she can change her mind. That doesn't mean I don't believe, for example, that Lily's maiden name was Evans or that Mrs. Figg and Arabella Figg are one and the same. However, I don't believe the name Evans has plot significance, and I expect Harry will find out who Mrs. Figg is in the first chapter of OOP, so it wasn't much of a giveaway. But I don't put much stock in anything she says in an interview. I certainly don't think those statements should impact my literary analysis. For whatever reason, authors (such as Tolkien again) have been known to deny having written themes into their books that readers of those books find there. On the other hand, a fanfiction writer (or Lexicon webmaster) might take a different view of what is canon, because they are interested in all of the details of JKR's wizarding world, whether or not they are essential or even important to an analysis of the novels. A FF writer who wants to write a fic that is as true as possible to JKR's world and characters will want to rely on things she says about the wizarding world that they can use in their own fics. Accordingly, they will be more inclined to consider anything spoken or expressly approved by JKR to be "canon" (unless otherwise contradicted by later-published books), especially factual details given by JKR in interviews or in media that she is known to have approved. And they are right that if JKR said these things herself, or if she approved them, they are not likely to be incorrect. But they are using a different definition of "canon" than I am. They are using "canon" to refer to what they feel is verifiably a component of the wizarding world as JKR imagined it, and not to refer to her works. I could go on and on, but I think I'll save some of it for the "Canon vs. Interpretation" panel at Nimbus - 2003. I hope to see you there! Debbie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From drednort at alphalink.com.au Wed Apr 23 09:47:53 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 19:47:53 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The timeline on the DVD *confirms* canon; In-Reply-To: References: <3EA6C47D.19664.191A2B9@localhost> Message-ID: <3EA6EDE9.16703.23374F0@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 55958 On 23 Apr 2003 at 9:34, Ali wrote: > Private schools do allow for greater flexibility, and Hogwarts is > certainly not part of the normal State system. But, what private > schools cannot take away is the fact that this is unusual. Unusual > enough that we should know that Hermione is advanced. I can understand that viewpoint - but the thing is, how would we know. It seems to me that we get most of our information about Hermione's past from her talking about it - not really from other sources. At least that's my impression (I haven't checked the books to see if I'm recalling correctly). I work with gifted kids, including those who've been accelerated, and who have entered school early. It would not be at all uncommon in the case of a single year accelerant for them to be advised not to talk about it, when they moved to a new school. Often part of the point of acceleration (especially single year acceleration as opposed to radical acceleration) is meant to be to ensure a child has a better chance of finding a genuine peer group, and the best way to do that can be to avoid calling attention to the fact. That doesn't mean we advise kids to lie - but if it doesn't come up, it doesn't come up. And not all kids keep such things secret even if they are advised to be discreet - but Hermione has shown she is good at keeping secrets about her education - the time turner for example. In fact, in an environment where it is truly unusual, we'd probably be more inclined to suggest the child be discreet about it. That's because as many as 5-10% of kids in any class could benefit from single year acceleration and that makes it more likely it will lead to ill feeling. Frankly, if I was dealing with a child like Hermione going into a school similar to Hogwarts (as similar as a Muggle school could be), I think I would be advising her to be discreet - the presence of the Ravenclaws, a specific group who seem to value high intelligence would be a strong reason for such benign chicanery. The thing is - if Hermione doesn't talk about it - how would we know? And there are other reasons besides being told not to, that a child could make such a decision - if they had felt isolated by being younger than everyone else, a school like Hogwarts could *seriously* be viewed as a fresh start where they can conceal their difference. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "Almighty Ruler of the all; Whose power extends to great and small; Who guides the stars with steadfast law; Whose least creation fills with awe; Oh grant thy mercy and thy grace; To those who venture into space." From elfundeb at comcast.net Wed Apr 23 10:12:19 2003 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 06:12:19 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Scabbers at the Weasleys (WAS: Some FF: Dumbledore and Scabbers, was Re: Worried about Hermione/others References: Message-ID: <008401c30980$d2c203a0$9ddc5644@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 55959 Greicy wrote: How can Peter Pettigrew > not have tried to do something to brainwash Percy or Ron, or any of > the Weasleys at that! Wormtail has proven that he isn't stupid when > it comes to be a conniving, greedy person. If he did what he did to > Bertha Jorkins then the possibility that he talked to Percy or Ron in > their sleep isn't out of the question, at least not for me. I think > that JKR had Scabbers choose the Weasleys for more than one reason > and I'll be waiting. The primary reason for Pettigrew *not* to have tried to brainwash one of the Weasleys is that at that time he believed Voldemort to be vanquished and knew Sirius had been properly framed for Pettigrew's own treachery. Therefore, there was no reason for him to be proactive for Voldemort. Moreover, as suggested by Sirius in PoA, Pettigrew needed to hide from Voldemort's old supporters, who believed he had double-crossed Voldemort as well. He returned to Voldemort at the end of PoA *not* because he was loyal but because he had nowhere else to turn for protection. Pettigrew is not, in my view, dumb or untalented -- he's certainly shown resourcefulness and an ability to take advantage of opportunities that arise -- but he does take the path of least resistance. And the path of least resistance after Voldemort's fall was to live fat and easy for 12 years as a rat in a household that fed him all kinds of information, so that he would always know which way the wind was blowing. I think he was prepared to live with the Weasleys as a rat for the rest of his life, and when Crookshanks made that impossible, he ran away, not to Voldemort but to Hagrid's hut. It simply was not in Pettigrew's interest to be performing Dark Magic on the Weasley kids. What he needed to be doing was to maintain his Animagus disguise, because if he was innocent he would have had had no reason to hide, and therefore if it was discovered that he was alive he would become a suspect himself. I just don't think he would risk capture by turning into human form to feed propaganda to children whose later roles were far from apparent at the time. He had very little to gain by it, because he had no idea at the time whether Voldemort would ever come back or whether he would be best served by following the status quo. Besides, if Pettigrew had been brainwashing Ron, I think he would have reacted a bit differently in the Shrieking Shack to Pettigrew's plea: "'Ron . . . haven't I been a good friend . . . a good pet? You won't let them kill me, Ron, will you . . . you're on my side, aren't you?' But Ron was staring at Pettigrew with the utmost revulsion. 'I let you sleep in my bed!' he said." He doesn't sound brainwashed to me. Debbie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From the_fox01 at hotmail.com Wed Apr 23 02:22:12 2003 From: the_fox01 at hotmail.com (The Fox) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 22:22:12 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What is Canon? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55960 From: Suzanne Chiles >The Fox said: >>Lucas has actually called the novels "glorified fan fiction". This is >>pretty rich, considering he's the one doing the glorifying, but there you >>go. :-) This includes the novelizations of the films themselves, so >>strictly speaking the Star Wars canon presently consists only of the five >>films. >> >>This makes every bit as much sense as considering the Harry Potter canon >>presently to consist only of the four books[1], and not the films. You've >>got canon in one medium, and you've got material in another medium based >>on the original canon material. Only one of them can be right, when they >>disagree. > >Actually, it doesn't make sense at all. You *must* consider the original of >the work. Star Wars originated as film, and for that reason, the Star Wars >canon may only consist of the films, especially with Lucas' disclaimer. > >Harry Potter, on the other hand, originated as literature, and for that >reason, canon must be restricted to the published books, of which there are >four at present. It sounds to me like you've just reiterated my position: Star Wars canon = five films (at present). Harry Potter canon = four books (again, at present). Full stop. What is it that doesn't make sense? Fox ........... Matthew 7:1 Luke 6:37 ... "You want to tempt the wrath of the whatever from high atop the thing?" -- West Wing ... Come on, Nature Just because I don't feel weak Don't mean I feel so strong. -- the Proclaimers .............................. _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From gandharvika at hotmail.com Wed Apr 23 10:49:10 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 10:49:10 +0000 Subject: HP and Les Miserables Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55961 Richasi Wondered: >I have one question though, and it is Off-Topic somewhat. >Who in the HP universe is Javert? ;) Why, Snape...of course! http://home.att.net/~coriolan/faculty/snape.htm#Snape's_Grudge http://home.att.net/~coriolan/azkaban.htm#The_Explanation -Gail B...having a shameless Lockhart moment but couldn't help herself :)> _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From jsummerill at summerillj.freeserve.co.uk Wed Apr 23 11:46:34 2003 From: jsummerill at summerillj.freeserve.co.uk (jotwo2003) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 11:46:34 -0000 Subject: Oedipus Potter (tongue slightly in cheek but serious point) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55962 There is a lot of speculation in HP fandom regarding with whom Harry may become romantically involved. I've seen it argued that he may date Susan Bones at some point, usually based on comments by JKR in interviews that she is the grand daughter of the Bones who were killed by Voldemort and that she will play a larger role in future books. However, one of the most popular predictions for Harry's ultimate partner is Ginny Weasley, The Girl Who Was Under Harry's Nose All The Time. The thing that slightly concerns me about these two possibilities is their similarities to Harry's mother. It is a fact universally acknowledged by readers of the HP series that the names chosen for characters by JKR have meaning. Thus, it's been pointed out that Susan is originally a Hebrew name that means lily. As for Ginny, she is described as small and red haired. That description could fit Lily as she appears in the Mirror of Erised. Harry is a James lookalike so if he pairs up with Ginny it will be a physical re-creation of The Gryffindor Golden Couple - (er, sorry, started channelling jealous-and-embittered I loved Lily!Snape there ) ? Harry's parents. I can quite understand if JKR goes for the option of Harry and Ginny falling in love because they met at Kings Cross Station, in honour of her own parents' love story. In fact the author's emotional commitment to the place is what makes me think that this is what will happen and I understand and respect that. But is it OK if Harry marries his Mum? What do other people think? Jo From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Wed Apr 23 11:00:46 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (Monita) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 11:00:46 -0000 Subject: I love Theories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55963 Hey Tom, Sorry I cant precisely remember where I read that it was an excerpt from an interview. I think was on Harry Potter Lexicon but it could have been another page. Anyway it was in a link titled Mysteries or sonmething like that listed under Those which are confirmed by Jk herself. A student from a school asked the particular question will any of the students become animagii and JK replied in the manner I previously posted. It spawned a bevvy of postings on that particular site from all and sundry trying to guess which student was most likely to perform animagus by the end of seventh year. Most of course firstly assumed Harry and Hermione which is plausible, as they are intelligent. But PoA firmly distinguishes and is backed up in in GoF by the Krummy shark, the probability of successful animagus transfiguration is a matter of devoted practice for some length of time. In PoA I believe the reference to Sirius and James as being the most intelligent students that Lupin knows and GoF when Krum only manages a disfigured halfway transformation is better translated as canon that it is not the level of the wizards or witches intelligence that dictates their ability to transform. These high ranking students, James and Sirius with Lupins obvious admiration and Krum the quidditch prodigy and representative of the Durmstrang school at the Tri-wizard tournament, were yet hard pressed to manage the transformation. I suppose Ginny may illegally transfigure, it is as likely to happen as not. THe canon clue is that the Tom Riddle diary was hidden in the transfiguration book that belonged to Ginny weasley in Flourish and Blotts by Lucius Malfoy. On the way to platform 9 and three quarters Ginny cried out to the family that they must return home for her diary. Ginny had already opened and preread her transfiguration book then hadnt she!? Before her first transfiguration class. Now perhaps she was simply a diligent student taking an interest in all her books or perhaps she simply stumbled across the diary by accident. But the probability that she had some prior interest in the power of transfiguration in definitely canonised in these two chapters of CoS. A further point of interest. Note that in the first book James wand was purported to be mahogany pliable and excellent for transfiguration. James was a graceful and magical animagus and his wand dictated that he would be. If we are to presume that anyone of the Hogwarts students we know will become animagi we should probably take a look at their wands for a clue. It wont be Ron his is Willow. PoA chapter four. Thats it? Thats it... TheValk speaks From grace701 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 23 14:00:04 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (Greicy de los Santos) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 07:00:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ron's Age, Hermione's Age Cut-off Dates In-Reply-To: <1051087609.1304.74096.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030423140004.44724.qmail@web14505.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55964 Monkey wrote: Given that the WW does not pay a lot of attention to the muggle world, I don't see any reason why their cut-off dates have to follow anyone's. Maybe there is a completely different cut-off date, or a grey period where it's a case-by-case basis. Just a thought Monkey I agree with Monkey. Not only does the WW not pay attention to Muggle details, they are eccentric enough to come up with their own cut off date. I always assumed that Harry's class was born in 1980 and that whoever was born in 1979 is a year ahead of Harry's class and those born 1981 are in Ginny's class. Simple as that. Greicy --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From william.truderung at sympatico.ca Wed Apr 23 15:09:32 2003 From: william.truderung at sympatico.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 15:09:32 -0000 Subject: Ron's Age, Hermione's Age Cut-off Dates In-Reply-To: <20030423140004.44724.qmail@web14505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55965 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Greicy de los Santos wrote: 'I agree with Monkey. Not only does the WW not pay attention to Muggle details, they are eccentric enough to come up with their own cut off date. I always assumed that Harry's class was born in 1980 and that whoever was born in 1979 is a year ahead of Harry's class and those born 1981 are in Ginny's class. Simple as that. Greicy' But that cannot work. In GoF, sixth-year Cedric Diggory turns 17 sometime before Oct 31, while in CoS, second-year Hermione Granger (according to the CoS DVD timeline) turns 12 on Sep 18, so the cut- off date must lie between those two dates. I do not know *why* JKR chose such a cut-off date, rather than the obvious Sep 1, which would have let all the students be Sorted at 11 years of age, but sadly, she apparently did. Bill From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 23 15:18:33 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 15:18:33 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's innocence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55966 Faith wrote: > But now that it's been put to rest exactly what happened, and that > Hagrid wasn't responsible, shouldn't he have had his name cleared, > and wand restored? and imamommy (cute name!) responded: > I think DD would be hard-pressed to prove to the MoM what exactly > happened in the CoS. So yes, he should have his wand > restored, but it's never gonna happen with Fudge fudging up the > ministry. Now me: I also find it perplexing that Hagrid was never cleared of being the one responsible for opening the Chamber 50 years ago, since Dumbledore knows in CoS that Voldemort is the one opening the Chamber this time ("The question is not who, but how?"; "The same person as last time...But this time, Lord Voldemort was acting through somebody else."). However, it's not clear *when* Dumbledore discovered that Tom Riddle was the one who opened the Chamber 50 years ago. In the flash-back scene, he asks Riddle whether there's anything he wants to tell him, which suggests that he's suspicious. But presumably if Dumbledore knew then that Riddle was guilty (and had a way to prove it), he would have had Riddle expelled instead of Hagrid. Instead, Riddle presumably spent two more years at Hogwarts (since the Chamber was opened in his 5th year). But Dumbledore obviously had his doubts about Hagrid's guilt, because he let him stay on as gamekeeper. I think the problem with clearing Hagrid of opening the Chamber 50 years ago is that it would have been necessary for Dumbledore to go public with the fact that Voldemort was once Tom Riddle, and there must have been some reason why Dumbledore didn't want this information to be public. However, I believe Hagrid was cleared of the charge of opening the Chamber the second time. When Dumbledore wrote to Azkaban, he must have explained enough of what happened in order to have Hagrid released. I think the reason why Hagrid still doesn't have a wand is because he never finished his Hogwarts education in order to become a fully- fledged wizard. I think the best Dumbledore could do for Hagrid to show his support was to make Hagrid a professor. ~Phyllis From emeleel at juno.com Wed Apr 23 14:34:52 2003 From: emeleel at juno.com (Melanie L Ellis) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 09:34:52 -0500 Subject: Hagrid's wand restored/Contacting parents Message-ID: <20030423.093453.-483067.1.emeleel@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55967 Faith wrote: But now that it's been put to rest exactly what happened, and that Hadrig wasn't responsible, shouldn't he have had his name cleared, and wand restored? imamommy wrote: I think DD would be hard-pressed to prove to the MoM what exactly happened in the CoS. After all, Riddle has disappeared, the diary has been obliterated (and given back to Malfoy), Ginny was knocked out for most of the time, and adults never want to listen to kids, anyway. Hagrid, therefore, may not be exonerated for opening the CoS the first time, though he is cleared in the second. Me: I've always assumed that Hagrid has his wand pieces stashed in that pink umbrella of his. In addition to the problems above, he'd be setting himself up for a peck of trouble if they ever found out that he'd kept it and continued to use it. Which makes me wonder.... if Hagrid's broken wand really is in his umbrella, and *it* works so well, why did Ron's broken wand work so badly....? Hmmmm **** Maria wrote: The basilisk is different, though. That can't be considered as a mere accident, and is also something the parents should know about... it's their kid, after all. But somehow, I doubt that they were ever told about it. Once it became obvious she wasn't anywhere near death, Dumbledore let out a great big sigh of joy at not having to contact anyone, probably. Me: If you're talking about not contacting Ginny's parents (I'm assuming based on your text), Mr. and Mrs. Weasley *were* contacted about Ginny's disappearance, because they were in DD's office at the end of CoS, crying, when Harry, Ginny, Ron and Lockhart showed up. I have always wondered if the parents of the petrified students were contacted, though, and if not, why not - there is certainly no evidence that any of them were told. Melanie Ellis Alabama Homeschool Message Board http://pub77.ezboard.com/balabamahomeschoolmessageboard ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 23 15:34:48 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 15:34:48 -0000 Subject: The Characters of Arabella and Mundungus (WAS: Dumbledore's useful spies) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55968 I wrote (in response to Barb's observation regarding Mrs. Figg being an unpleasant person): > So while she's obviously not the most enjoyable companion an 11 > year old boy might want and is obviously very peculiar, I don't > think of her as an unpleasant person. to which Barb responded: > Harry, not feel sorry for someone breaking their leg, other than a > Dursley or a Malfoy? Given what we know of Harry, that seems to be > the most telling clue to whether she is a pleasant person. now me again: An excellent point - I had not thought of that. I was seeing the descriptors in canon pointing to Harry's stays at Mrs. Figg's house as being unpleasant, rather that Mrs. Figg herself being an unpleasant person. But given Harry's sensitivity, it is quite telling that he wouldn't be sympathetic about Mrs. Figg breaking her leg. I did also want to mention that I completely agree with Barb's original point, which was that Dumbledore has collected quite a motley crew with which to fight Voldemort. Let's review: a werewolf (Lupin), a convicted murderer (Sirius), two half-giants (Hagrid and Madame Maxime), a cruel bully (Snape), a "mad old lady" (Arabella Figg) and a swindling practical joker (Mundungus Fletcher). But he does have the Weasleys and, of course, our hero Harry. And Voldemort has his share of motley-ness - take the senior Crabbe and Goyle, for instance. I just can't wait to see how JKR pulls this all together! ~Phyllis From dorigen at hotmail.com Wed Apr 23 15:50:12 2003 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 15:50:12 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hagrid's innocence Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55969 >I think the reason why Hagrid still doesn't have a wand is because he >never finished his Hogwarts education in order to become a fully- >fledged wizard. I think the best Dumbledore could do for Hagrid to >show his support was to make Hagrid a professor. But you don't have to finish your Hogwarts education (or even start one) to have a wand. All the Hogwarts students have wands from the beginning of their first year. Likewise the Beauxbatons and Durmstrang students. *All* grownup wizards have wands except criminals, as far as I can see. The reason Hagrid's wand was broken is that he *was* being treated as a criminal (it's possible that he'd have gone to Azkaban if he had been older). I think his lack of a wand is because Dumbledore is letting it slide (knowing perfectly well about the umbrella), and no one else remembers or cares. Janet Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Wed Apr 23 16:03:07 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 16:03:07 -0000 Subject: Contacting parents Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55970 Maria (me) wrote: The basilisk is different, though. That can't be considered as a mere accident, and is also something the parents should know about... it's their kid, after all. But somehow, I doubt that they were ever told about it. Once it became obvious she wasn't anywhere near death, Dumbledore let out a great big sigh of joy at not having to contact anyone, probably. Melissa replied: If you're talking about not contacting Ginny's parents (I'm assuming based on your text), Mr. and Mrs. Weasley *were* contacted about Ginny's disappearance, because they were in DD's office at the end of CoS, crying, when Harry, Ginny, Ron and Lockhart showed up. I have always wondered if the parents of the petrified students were contacted, though, and if not, why not - there is certainly no evidence that any of them were told. Me again: No, actually, I was talking about contacting the parents of the *Petrified* students, like Hermione or Justin Finch-Fletchey. Sorry about being unclear. Apparently, Ginny's case is different because everyone believed she was dead or dying in the Chamber of Secrets, and it was impossible to go and save her becasue no one knew where it was. Of course her parents were contacted. But as for the Petrified students - Dumbledore and everyone else knew that they were going to be alright, and that they were actually safer than anyone else. So, uh, extrapolating from the fact that Dumbledore, apparently, didn't tell the Weasleys about Pettigrew and Sirius Black, I conclude that the parents were not contacted in CoS. Feel free to disagree, though. Maria From Audra1976 at aol.com Wed Apr 23 16:51:32 2003 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 12:51:32 EDT Subject: HP and Les Miserables Message-ID: <10c.22ef9584.2bd81e94@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55971 >I have one question though, and it is Off-Topic somewhat. >Who in the HP universe is Javert? ;) >Taryn: >Voldemort would be. >He's obsessive about his system of justice, in essence who should live and >who shouldn't, despite being born from the very type of people he hates. I find >Voldemort to be extremely fanatical, especially about his belief of superiority over >muggles and muggle-born, despite his muggle heritage. And Javert's defining >characteristic is his sense of justice and superiority over low-class criminals (even >the ones who have done nothing more than broken a window and stolen some >bread), though he was born from that same type of group. Me: Ooh, Taryn, you stole my thunder, but I couldn't have said it better. When I read Marina's original post I immediately drew the parallel between Javert and Riddle/Voldemort. And the Dursleys and the Thenardiers--it's just too perfect! Eponine Thenardier grew up to be a pretty decent person, so that gives me some hope for Dudley Dursley. But you you imagine there being a romantic rivalry between Dudley and Harry falling for the same girl, like Eponine and Cosette with Marius!? Hmmm...when Voldy War II starts up, I'll be on the lookout for a hot young female revolutionary. LOL. -Audra- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tahewitt at yahoo.com Wed Apr 23 16:56:58 2003 From: tahewitt at yahoo.com (Tyler Hewitt) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 09:56:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP and Les Miserables In-Reply-To: <1051080815.3171.50255.m11@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030423165658.173.qmail@web14207.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55972 Marina Rusalka wrote: Okay, so I was recently skimming my ratty old copy of Les Miserables, and I kept noticing similarities with HP. Not in a "Hey, JKR is ripping off Hugo" sort of way, but in the "Hmm, check out the common themes and archetypes" sort of way. ME: I've done this a LOT lately. Seems that nearly everything I watch or read resonates with Harry Potter: Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Beowulf, Time Bandits, Spirited Away (a GREAT film, by the way), A Chinese Ghost Story, The Once and Future King, hell, even episodes of Futurama have sparked HP comparisons with me. I'd like to think that there are commonly used ideas of story structure, or maybe some archetypal 'hero's journey' mythology cropping up again and again, but it's probably just me losing what little is left of my sanity! Tyler who will be foaming at the mouth by midnight on June 20 __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 23 17:02:04 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 10:02:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Contacting parents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030423170204.23744.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55973 --- Maria wrote: > But as for the Petrified students - Dumbledore and everyone else knew > that they were going to be alright, and that they were actually safer > than anyone else. So, uh, extrapolating from the fact that > Dumbledore, apparently, didn't tell the Weasleys about Pettigrew and > Sirius Black, I conclude that the parents were not contacted in CoS. > Feel free to disagree, though. *waves hand* I disagree. :) I think there's a vast difference between notifying parents of Petrified students and the whole Scabbers/Pettigrew debate. The former involves an official action as the Headmaster of the school, the latter only a personal action based on his knowledge of extra-curricular events, so to speak. He has the DUTY as Headmaster to notify parents under certain instances, and I think a child being Petrified -- whether or not there's a cure available -- is definitely one of them! (Would Dumbledore just HOPE Colin's parents don't notice that their child doesn't write them from *November* on, doesn't come home for Christmas, etc? Please.) Dumbledore CAN'T take official action on the Scabbers situation, because the official position is that Peter Pettigrew is dead and Scabbers is a rat. So any action he'd take is a purely personal one in which he's free to use his own judgment to conclude that the Weasleys are not in danger. I don't think there's really any comparison between the two decisions. Andrea __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From william.truderung at sympatico.ca Wed Apr 23 17:13:10 2003 From: william.truderung at sympatico.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 17:13:10 -0000 Subject: Letting People Know About Sirius/Pettigrew (Was: Re: Contacting parents) In-Reply-To: <20030423170204.23744.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55974 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Andrea wrote: 'Dumbledore CAN'T take official action on the Scabbers situation, because the official position is that Peter Pettigrew is dead and Scabbers is a rat. So any action he'd take is a purely personal one in which he's free to use his own judgment to conclude that the Weasleys are not in danger. I don't think there's really any comparison between the two decisions. Andrea' I am curious about whether people here agree with the decision not to go public with Sirius' innocence. I can see why Dumbledore does not want to get HRH involved with the MoM, but there is a life at stake here. What if Harry were staying at the Burrow, and Sirius comes to visit. Ginny spots him, and, not knowing the truth, informs the Ministry. The Aurors arrive, capture him, and immediately bring him to the Dementors, who give him the Kiss. If Dumbledore were to have gone public first, then I would think that Sirius would at least be given veritasirum first, if only to answer any possible doubts in the public mind. Bill From innermurk at catlover.com Wed Apr 23 16:15:27 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 16:15:27 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Scabbers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55975 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "maria_kirilenko" wrote: > Nah, a broken leg is nothing. At a school where they teach magic, > accidents are bound to happen. Of course, the most interesting thing > about the broken leg is the circumstances, but that's a whole another > story. > > The basilisk is different, though. That can't be considered as a mere > accident, and is also something the parents should know about... it's > their kid, after all. But somehow, I doubt that they were ever told > about it. Once it became obvious she wasn't anywhere near death, > Dumbledore let out a great big sigh of joy at not having to contact > anyone, probably. > > He isn't a very *moral* person when it comes to little things like > that, is he? > > Maria Oh no!!!! I think that must've been movie contamination! If you'll remember correctly, BOTH Arthur and Molly Weasley were with Dumbledore, and McGonagall when Harry, Ron, Lockhart, Ginny and Fawkes came back from the Chamber of Secrets. I'm sure that they didn't just decide to pop in to Hogwarts. I'm sure that they were there because Dumbledore or McGonagall contacted them and asked them to come. Molly was crying remember? Most obviously they were discussing the whole chamber and basilisk events that led Ginny to be taken away. Then Harry told them ALL what had happened and it wasn't until they learned about everything that Dumbledore sent Ginny off to the hospital wing with her parents. So, I'd say he *is* a very moral person is this kind of thing. Innermurk From bard7696 at aol.com Wed Apr 23 17:41:32 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 17:41:32 -0000 Subject: Contacting parents In-Reply-To: <20030423170204.23744.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55976 > *waves hand* I disagree. :) I think there's a vast difference between > notifying parents of Petrified students and the whole Scabbers/Pettigrew > debate. The former involves an official action as the Headmaster of the school, the latter only a personal action based on his knowledge of extra-curricular events, so to speak. He has the DUTY as Headmaster to > notify parents under certain instances, and I think a child being > Petrified -- whether or not there's a cure available -- is definitely one > of them! (Would Dumbledore just HOPE Colin's parents don't notice that > their child doesn't write them from *November* on, doesn't come home for > Christmas, etc? Please.) > This is an excellent point. Colin's parents were Muggles and he was a first-year. They get this letter from an owl, have to go through a magic entrance in the back of a tavern to buy his school supplies with money converted at a bank run by freaking GOBLINS!, watch their kid walk through a wall to catch his train, get letters from more owls and then within two months, they stop hearing from him? Oh yeah, they would have noticed. Now, what did Dumbledore tell them? Remember, the truth is preferable to lies, generally. Does he tell them 'Your child has been petrified by a monster. He will be fine by the end of the year, while we wait for these plants to develop acne so we can smash them and use them for the potion cure" or does he say Colin is fine and has been too busy to write or does he even forge a letter saying "Mum and Dad, I'm fine. Going to stay here with my new mates over Christmas. Don't worry." If it's the former, I would hope he or McGonagall made a home visit to the Creevey's to break it to them. Regardless, the Creevey's got over the scare or didn't notice the lack of contact from Colin, because Dennis started attending later. This brings up another tangent, one that was never quite resolved when I on this board last year. Do Muggles just get owls notifying them of their children's abilities? And if so, do they just automatically send their kid to a wizarding school on the strength of that letter? Or does McGonagall or another professor (presumably not Snape) make a home visit? Hagrid only seemed to go to Harry before first year because the Dursleys were trying to hide from the letters. Presumably, Hermione, Justin, and Colin would have displayed some kind of magical talent before the letter arrived, leading the Grangers, Ms. Finch and Mr. Fletchley and the Creeveys to wonder what was up with their kid (or kids, in the case of Colin's parents.) And, can a set of Muggle parents or guardians refuse to send their child to Hogwarts, like Vernon wanted to do? Maybe they aren't as nasty about it as Vernon, but they just don't accept magic, want their children to go to a proper English school (like Eton) or one of any of 10 reasons not to want their child to go to Hogwarts. What happens then? Darrin -- Ms. Finch and Mr. Fletchley would be a great name for a band From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 23 17:44:14 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 17:44:14 -0000 Subject: Letting People Know About Sirius/Pettigrew (Was: Re: Contacting parents) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55977 Bill wrote: > I am curious about whether people here agree with the decision not > to go public with Sirius' innocence. I can see why Dumbledore does > not want to get HRH involved with the MoM, but there is a life at > stake here. Now me: I don't think Dumbledore can go public with Sirius' innocence and have people believe him without being able to produce Pettigrew. As Dumbledore himself says at the end of PoA (Ch. 21): "There is not a shred of proof to support Black's story, except your word - and the word of two thirteen-year-old wizards will not convince anybody. A street full of eye-witnesses swore they saw Sirius murder Pettigrew. I myself gave evidence to the Ministry that Sirius had been the Potters' Secret-Keeper." Of course, if the good guys are able to capture Pettigrew, this could be the means to clear Sirius. We can only hope! On the other issue of whether or not Dumbledore informed the parents of the petrified students in CoS - I would think he would have had to, since students like Draco Malfoy were telling their parents, and since Lucius was spear-heading the campaign to oust Dumbledore by having all of the Hogwarts governors sign an order of suspension. I can't see all of the Hogwarts governors and the parents of other Hogwarts students knowing while the parents of the petrified students remained uninformed. ~Phyllis From Zarleycat at aol.com Wed Apr 23 17:46:14 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 17:46:14 -0000 Subject: Letting People Know About Sirius/Pettigrew In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55978 > I am curious about whether people here agree with the decision not to > go public with Sirius' innocence. I can see why Dumbledore does not > want to get HRH involved with the MoM, but there is a life at stake > here. > If Dumbledore were to have gone public first, then I would think that > Sirius would at least be given veritasirum first, if only to answer > any possible doubts in the public mind. That all sounds completely logical and plausible. Then, why does no one, in either PoA or GoF, think or suggest that Sirius come in and use veritaserum - not Sirius, not Dumbledore, not Lupin, not Harry, not Hermione - no one. After all, these are not stupid people here. That leads me to believe that there's something about the use or properties of veritaserum that we don't know. Is it only effective when questioning a person about events during a certain time span? In other words, could you ask about things over the previous, say 5 years, but anything older than that would be considered suspect? If that's the case Sirius could certainly say he was not guilty of betraying the Potters, but any questions about his activities, or what he knew of Peter's activities at the time of the Potters' deaths would fall outside that safe time span, and thus, no one could be sure that he was telling the truth. So, any evidence he gave to support his side of things would not automatically be believed. Or is there a fear that, due to Sirius' long incarceration, Ministry officials and/or the public would simply assume he was insane, and thus, anything he said, under the influence of the serum or not, would be construed as wild ravings? Or, is it so ingrained in the public's mind that Sirius was V's right- hand man and thus probably knows devilish Dark Magic that might thwart the effects of veritaserum so that, again, anything he said would not be believed? The one thing above all else that would help Sirius clear his name is the presence of Peter Pettigrew. Saying that Pettigrew is really alive doesn't buttress Sirius' defense nearly as well as actually having the real flesh and blood Peter standing right there. So, since Peter was off tending to Voldemort, that may have been reason enough for Dumbledore to keep things quiet. Marianne From the_fox01 at hotmail.com Wed Apr 23 17:46:53 2003 From: the_fox01 at hotmail.com (The Fox) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 13:46:53 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Contacting parents Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55979 From: "maria_kirilenko" >I was talking about contacting the parents of the *Petrified* students, >like Hermione or Justin Finch-Fletchley. ... Apparently, Ginny's case is >different because everyone believed she was dead or dying in the Chamber of >Secrets, and it was impossible to go and save her because no one knew where >it was. Of course her parents were contacted. It was Percy who contacted the Weasley parents, actually (US hardcover, p.295). And this after the Heads of Houses informed their students that Ginny had been taken into the chamber; McGonagall, as acting headmistress, had put plans in motion to close the school and send the students home by Hogwarts Express. It's not clear what was to be done about the four Petrified students in the infirmary -- possibly they'd be sent home by a special train after they'd been revived. Anyway, Percy sent an owl to the Weasleys and they arrived at the school that same evening -- likely before McGonagall had a chance to decide *what*, much less *how*, to tell them about Ginny. Fox ........... Matthew 7:1 Luke 6:37 ... "You want to tempt the wrath of the whatever from high atop the thing?" -- West Wing ... Come on, Nature Just because I don't feel weak Don't mean I feel so strong. -- the Proclaimers .............................. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 23 18:03:47 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 18:03:47 -0000 Subject: Muggle Hogwarts Notification and Attendance Options (WAS: Contacting parents) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55980 Darrin asked: > Do Muggles just get owls notifying them of their children's > abilities? And if so, do they just automatically send their kid to > a wizarding school on the strength of that letter? Now me: Welcome back, Darrin! In Ch. 6 of PS/SS, Hermione tells Ron and Harry "...it was ever such a surprise when I got my letter..." And in Ch. 6 of CoS, Colin tells Harry "I never knew all the odd stuff I could do was magic till I got the letter from Hogwarts." So while it's not clear whether these Muggle-born wizards received their letters by owl or by regular mail, what is clear is that they found out about their Hogwarts acceptance by letter. There's no mention of a personal visit by anyone from the Hogwarts staff. We do have to suspend disbelief a bit to accept that a family would send their child off to a wizarding school based solely on receipt of such a letter, however! Darrin again: > And, can a set of Muggle parents or guardians refuse to send their > child to Hogwarts, like Vernon wanted to do? Me again: Since Justin Finch-Fletchley tells HRH in Ch. 6 of CoS: "My name was down for Eton, you know, I can't tell you how glad I am I came here instead", I've always assumed that going to Hogwarts is an option rather than a mandate. For everyone except Harry, of course. Harry is obviously special and it's clear that he's destined for something great, so I don't think Dumbledore could allow the Dursleys to choose not to send Harry to Hogwarts. I also don't think Dumbledore views the Dursleys as Harry's true family. I think Dumbledore treats the Dursleys as a means to an end - through ancient magic, they protect Harry when he lives with them. But he's not going to let the Dursleys get in the way of Harry's destiny by forbidding Harry to attend Hogwarts. ~Phyllis From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Apr 23 18:21:36 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 19:21:36 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Muggle Hogwarts Notification and Attendance Options (WAS: Contacting parents) References: Message-ID: <3EA6D9B0.000001.48295@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 55981 Darrin: > And, can a set of Muggle parents or guardians refuse to send their > child to Hogwarts, like Vernon wanted to do? Phyllis: Since Justin Finch-Fletchley tells HRH in Ch. 6 of CoS: "My name was down for Eton, you know, I can't tell you how glad I am I came here instead", I've always assumed that going to Hogwarts is an option rather than a mandate. Me- Firstly I do think that Hogwarts is probably an option for most kids (as Phyllis sid, with Harry being the exception - something I heartily agree with regardless of his destiny, because James and lily would no doubt have wanted him to go to Hogwarts). However, I'm not sure the quote about Eton tells us anything one wy or another because Justin would have had his name down for Eton way before his letter came from Hogwarts - meaning that his comment would make sense if Hogwarts had been compulsorary as well as if it wasn't. It also tells us that Justin's parents are probably very very well off since Eton is one of the premier public schools in England. Actually maybe their circumstances made them happy to send him to Hogwrts - after all its long traditions and strange customs (robes etc) wous seem perfectly run of the mill to parents who were expecting their child to go to Eton. K From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Wed Apr 23 18:48:09 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 18:48:09 -0000 Subject: Contacting parents, Dumbledore Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55982 I wrote: > But as for the Petrified students - Dumbledore and everyone else knew > that they were going to be alright, and that they were actually safer > than anyone else. So, uh, extrapolating from the fact that > Dumbledore, apparently, didn't tell the Weasleys about Pettigrew and > Sirius Black, I conclude that the parents were not contacted in CoS. > Feel free to disagree, though. Andrea wrote: *waves hand* I disagree. :) I think there's a vast difference between notifying parents of Petrified students and the whole Scabbers/Pettigrew debate. The former involves an official action as the Headmaster of the school, the latter only a personal action based on his knowledge of extra-curricular events, so to speak. He has the DUTY as Headmaster to notify parents under certain instances, and I think a child being Petrified -- whether or not there's a cure available -- is definitely one of them! (Would Dumbledore just HOPE Colin's parents don't notice that their child doesn't write them from *November* on, doesn't come home for Christmas, etc? Please.) Me: Ummm . I hadn't thought of that. Ok, point conceded. Although I don't know about that "Duty as Headmaster" part... I'm not sure it would be the most important factor in making a decision for Dumbledore. He does tend to set up experiments in Hogwarts, what with the Philosopher's Stone and Lockhart and the Time-Turner. >Dumbledore CAN'T take official action on the Scabbers situation, >because >the official position is that Peter Pettigrew is dead and Scabbers >is a >rat. Agreed. >So any action he'd take is a purely personal one in which he's >free to use his own judgment to conclude that the Weasleys are not >in danger. Ah, but should he take such responsibility upon himself? I don't think so. It's still ultimately the Weasleys's business to decide if they're in danger or not. I do hope we're going to see a scene where Molly is listening to the explanation of *why*, exactly, Sirius Black was at Hogwarts at the end of GoF, and *why* Ron told her that it was okay, and *how*, they all know that Pettigrew is alive. I'd love to see her reaction. It would be rather funny, no? After all, there must a recap of the previous books anyway, so why not have it in this form? >I don't think there's really any comparison between the two >decisions. I suppose you're right. But I still think that Dumbledore should've told the Weasleys about Scabbers. Maria, who double-checks the facts in books if she thinks that she's suffering from movie contamination, but who had completely forgotten that it was Percy who'd sent the owl to his parents in CoS. From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Apr 23 19:30:35 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 20:30:35 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Letting People Know About Sirius/Pettigrew (Was: Re: Contacting parents) References: Message-ID: <3EA6E9DB.000001.48295@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 55983 Phyllis - On the other issue of whether or not Dumbledore informed the parents of the petrified students in CoS - I would think he would have had to, since students like Draco Malfoy were telling their parents, and since Lucius was spear-heading the campaign to oust Dumbledore by having all of the Hogwarts governors sign an order of suspension. I can't see all of the Hogwarts governors and the parents of other Hogwarts students knowing while the parents of the petrified students remained uninformed. Now me - Why not? The news is spreading by word of mouth - and possibly through the Daily Prophet (I don't remember). But the petrified kids are all muggleborns so their parents aren't going to be associating with the parents of the other kids so tey won't hear that way, the children themselves are in no state to be able to inform their parents and their parents aren't likely to be getting the DP. As long as the staff impress upon the petrified students *not* to tell their parents when they have recovered their parents could quite easily not find out. Not that I'm saying he did this, in fact since he was already suspended briefly and the majority of the wizarding communtiy knew I can't see why he'd bother, but it is possible. The only problem would be if there were wizarding siblings - which I don't think there were. (Well there's Dennis but he wasn't there at the time) K From selene at earthlink.net Wed Apr 23 19:18:31 2003 From: selene at earthlink.net (Susan Fox-Davis) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 12:18:31 -0700 Subject: Hermione's Birthday was Re: The timeline on the DVD *confirms* canon; Message-ID: <3EA6E706.7AF4D6CA@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 55984 Not me! Sept. 19, 1980 is just fine. I've cast her astrological chart with the free service on www.Astro.com, using 0600 for time of birth to assure a Virgo ascendant as well and it so fits her personality, assuming a birthplace of London, England for lack of any other canonical evidence. INTERESTING CHART. This kid is a Virgo with lots of planetary support, with planets in Virgo and fellow Earth sign Capricorn. All significant aspects are on one half of the chart only, from Capricorn to Leo. All planets are direct. Here are the planetary positions: Planetary positions - planet - sign - degree - house - motion - Susan's comments Sun Virgo 2624'33 01 direct [Yeah no kidding] Moon Capricorn 1545'19 04 direct [Another earth sign, no wonder she does poorly in Trelawney's class, her psychism is completely grounded.] Mercury Libra 1435'02 02 direct Venus Leo 1217'40 11 direct [Her libido is in a fire sign, oh yes! She did indeed ask Viktor to the ball!] Mars Scorpio 1356'44 03 direct [Square with Venus - obstruction to love life, shippers take note - it may take a long time to get into a relationship. Wonder where Ron's Mars is?] Jupiter Virgo 2200'40 01 direct Saturn Virgo 2943'19 01 direct [This is where her study charts come from, yesno?] Uranus Scorpio 2234'46 03 direct Neptune Sagittarius 1959'38 04 direct Pluto Libra 2041'39 02 direct True Node Leo 1937'48 11 direct Ascendant Virgo 1804'46 I also seriously consider that Hermione could have excelled in Prof. Trelawney's class if she had gotten into the mathematics of astrology rather than the "soft" science of interpretation. Or is that covered in Mathemagics along with Numerology? What we need now is some more specific dates and times for character's births and major dates in history such as Voldemort's first fall. Wheee! If anyone wants to take a flyer at interpretation, I've no objection certainly. Mathimagically yours, Susan Fox-Davis selene at earthlink.net From selene at earthlink.net Wed Apr 23 19:20:35 2003 From: selene at earthlink.net (Susan Fox-Davis) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 12:20:35 -0700 Subject: Truth, SHIPs, and Rita Skeeter (was Re: SHIPping Attitudes) Message-ID: <3EA6E782.244A94CB@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 55985 Kia writes: <> As someone in journalism biz, that bothers me no little. Perhaps the Daily Prophet is the Wizarding World's "NY Post", while the more sedate "NY Times" analogue has not yet been seen in the HP Canon. "All the news that fits, we print." Just a bit of tangental linguistics: remember that "paparazzi" is the Italian term for annoying buzzing insects, like, say, skeeters. <> Those rules don't seem to apply to the Death Eaters, who played marionettes with the muggle proprietor of the campground and his wife and child after the Quidditch World Cup. Voldemort didn't exactly sanction that action, but he certainly has nothing stopping him from killing women and children, viz. the whole Potter family. Although he still has not managed to kill Harry after multiple attempts it wasn't through any issue of ethics. Susan Fox-Davis selene at earthlink.net From susannahlm at yahoo.com Wed Apr 23 20:09:28 2003 From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (derannimer) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 20:09:28 -0000 Subject: Journalistic Accuracy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55986 Susan wrote: > As someone in journalism biz, that bothers me no little. > Perhaps the Daily Prophet is the Wizarding World's > "NY Post", while the more sedate "NY Times" analogue > has not yet been seen in the HP Canon. > "All the news that fits, we print." The other thing to remember is that Fleet Street has always tended to be more sensationalistic, and more openly partisan, than their US counterparts. From what I've read of British newspapers, even the Times of London isn't as sedate as the Grey Lady, or as even-handed as the Washington Post. The line between tabloid reporting and reputable reporting isn't quite so clear as it is over here. And wizarding culture tends to bit larger than life anyway--and seems to be culturally not quite modern--so I'm not surprised that their press is a bit, well, _His Girl Friday_ sometimes. Papers used to be less concerned with accuracy than they are today. Look at the sorts of things Hearst used to do. Or that Rupert Murdoch currently does. Wizarding journalism in general may be a bit more tabloid-y, like that, kind of. Derannimer, who would take Rita over Geraldo any day From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Wed Apr 23 20:17:01 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 16:17:01 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What is Canon? References: Message-ID: <02c901c309d5$4cc55270$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55987 Dan wrote: > Taking our lead from Biblical scholarship, we could refer to anything > J.K. Rowling writes (or writings she has explicitly approved) about > Harry Potter as CANONICAL and anything that other people write about > Harry Potter as PSEUDO-CANONICAL. Thus, the (soon to be) five Potter > books, and the others that Rowlings has written (Quidditch Through the > Ages, et. al.) would be the CANON, and fan-fiction and the movies, and > maybe even the merchandise and video games, would be the PSEUDO-CANON. Oh i would NEVER attach the word "canon" (even if it had the prefix of pseudo) to fan-fiction. A five year old could write a story that says "Harry Potter's favorite color is blue, because the sky is blue and it's pretty." There's nothing canonical about that. But i do like the "pseudo-canon" term. Since it seems a lot of people are resisting calling JKR's spoken words "canon" perhaps "pseudo-canon" would work better. But her words are the only things i would consider "pseudo-canon." I'll ignore your other responses to me Dan, because they were responses to old emails and ideas that no longer apply. Rebecca wrote: > See, I tend to think of HP as a "books-only" canon. > If it's not in the books, it's not canon. Though it > can (like Lily's last name) be generally accepted. > I'll accept it as fact, but not canon, if that makes > sense. Would you accept it as "pseudo-canon" then? Since it is an established fact? Maria wrote: > What I don't really understand is why people tend to dismiss the > schoolbooks as canon. Can someone explain that to me? I would like to know the answer to that myself. It makes no logical sense to me. Tom wrote: > So, that's why I (and I believe I'm probably in a tiny minority > here) am almost tempted to suggest that the interviews are *more* > important than the books themselves, because of the `what's-going-to- > happen' factor, of which only the author is aware, but which has > implications for what is contained in the books themselves. After reading your reasoning, i would agree with you that the interviews are more 'important' than the books, but not 'more canon.' Do you get me? bboy_mn wrote: > I do take JKR's statements as 'gospel', but it is at times ambiguous. She's no more ambiguous than the 'gospel' of the Bible is...in fact, she's much less so. Some of her words are open for interpretation, true. But after the series has ended, i believe we will know exactly what she was trying to get across. And at that point, i don't see how anyone could NOT accept her words as "pseudo-canon" at the very least. Debbie wrote: > For whatever reason, authors (such as Tolkien again) have been > known to deny having written themes into their books that readers > of those books find there. Well that's understandable. You can find themes in everything if you look hard enough. I doubt that the writers did intentionally put the themes there. Debbie again: > And they are right that if JKR said these things herself, or > if she approved them, they are not likely to be incorrect. > But they are using a different definition of "canon" than I > am. They are using "canon" to refer to what they feel is > verifiably a component of the wizarding world as JKR imagined > it, and not to refer to her works. Now i see. That's what i was doing as well...equating verifiable fact with canon...when they are not one in the same. But now that i've got the term "psuedo-canon" to throw around (thanks Dan!), i'm a happy camper ;) Debbie one more time: > I could go on and on, but I think I'll save some of it for > the "Canon vs. Interpretation" panel at Nimbus - 2003. I hope > to see you there! I hope to see you there as well! It all depends on tax money now...c'mon good 'ole IRS! Send me to Nimbus! ;) ~Katy~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Wed Apr 23 20:20:16 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 20:20:16 -0000 Subject: The timeline on the DVD *confirms* canon; In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55988 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "serenadust" wrote: > If you assume (as I sort of did) that everyone gets their letters > shortly before they turn eleven, then the 1979 birthdate for > Hermione would have her receiving her letter almost a year in > advance of her actual arrival at Hogwarts. This "works" for me > for two reasons. First, if Hermione had nearly a whole year for > her Muggle parents to adjust to the idea and obtain her books and > supplies, then I can easily believe that she learned all the > books "by heart" and has had time to practice and master some > simple spells (on top of mastering everything she needed to learn > at her last year in her English "Muggle school", of course). > Clearly if her birthdate is 1980 as the timeline states, she > couldn't possibly have gotten the letter a week before her > eleventh birthday; she was already at Hogwarts then. With this > scenario we can't figure out when the heck she got the letter. > This just bugs me. Actually, I find it hard to believe that the students receive the letters at a time that relates to their birthdays, rather than when they are starting school. That would mean letters having to go out all year, and the Muggle-borns who are close to the cut-off-- whatever it is--would have knowledge of their magical status well before they start school, which could lead to their revealing their abilities to Muggles, in violation of the law. (They might be able to sit on this information for a month or two, especially if they're going on a holiday and aren't around their usual friends, but I think most kids would go crazy keeping a secret like this for an extended period of time living in the Muggle world.) It makes far more sense for the letters to come about five weeks before the beginning of the term, as Harry's did. (It seems to be about five and a half weeks, actually, as the letters were 'trying' to reach Harry for about a week before Hagrid came to the rock in the sea with another one, on his birthday.) The following summer, all of the Weasleys--and Harry--receive their letters about supplies for the new term at the same time. All of the letters for the new students going out simultaneously is far more orderly than sending them whenever someone is turning eleven. I'm guessing that Hermione received her letter when Harry would have originally (if it weren't for Uncle Vernon)--somewhere around July 24. Given what we know of Hermione, I have no doubt that within a couple of days, she had purchased all of her things from Diagon Alley and spent the following month immersing herself in everything magical. Our Hermione doesn't need an entire year to do this. :D > Secondly, all the available canon implies that Hermione is the > product of an English school and an English family. Not Scottish, > certainly not American, and not Portugese as some posters seem to > have suggested. As Ali confirmed in her post ::waves to Ali:: > it's overwhelmingly standard in that system for the age cut-off to > be September 1 with virtually *no* exceptions. IMO JKR indirectly > backs that up by *always* having the Hogwarts Express depart on > Sept. 1, suggesting (to me, anyway) that she's attempting to > reflect the standard British/English calendar. The school year > ending in July also supports this calendar. Actually, the term seems to end slightly before June is over. And other people who've posted here in the past have argued that there are in fact exceptions, because THEY are the exceptions. So, the fact that we've had folks speaking from personal experience, living, breathing examples of people who didn't have to wait a year to start school in the UK means that it DOES happen. Most people will tell you that American cities with a rigid Sept. 1 cut-off have no exceptions either, but I can speak from personal experience that my daughter was admitted to first grade at a city school despite not turning 6 until Sept. 9, and we had absolutely no trouble. My son didn't start kindergarten until he was nearly 6 because of his October 27 birthday, but the following year he spent only a month in first grade before being bumped up to second grade, because he basically already knew everything the first grade teachers were going to cover that year, and it seemed fairly pointless to let him languish in first grade just because his birthday isn't seven weeks earlier. For pete's sake, this is HERMIONE we're talking about! This girl is scarily smart. I don't think it's just because she's nearly a year older than most of the other students in her year. > If Hogwarts accepts all the Muggle-born first years who have spent > their school careers up to age 11 in that system, it just doesn't > make sense to me to have a different cut-off. Given that most Muggle-born families we hear of (Hermione's, Lily's, Justin's, Colin's) are rather pleased to have a magical person in the family, if it means that student foregoing a year of Muggle school and starting Hogwarts instead, I hardly think they're going to complain. As the Hogwarts education doesn't seem to follow logically on a Muggle education anyway, the parents might think that it's of little importance whether their child goes through another year of English grammar, History, Maths, etc. when he or she could be learning to repot mandrakes. > I also think that the fact that Angelina Johnson having just > turned 17 in late October (GoF, chapter 16) supports the Sept 1 > cutoff if she is a 6th year student at that time. We should have > that confirmed if she's a seventh year in OOP. Now, if the cutoff > is in fact the autumnal equinox, as some have suggested, then that > *could* solve the problem, but that's pure speculation at this > point, and I don't want to assume that without some real evidence. Again, we don't know what year Angelina is in, although many people have assumed that it's the same year as the twins. It seems a safe bet. It's Cedric whom we know for certain is a sixth year who turned 17 before Halloween of Harry's fourth year. And I'm not sure what kind of evidence you're looking for if it's not enough for you that JKR is TELLING us when Hermione's 12th birthday occurred and she had Dumbledore calling Harry and Hermione 13 year old wizards near the end of their third year, plus the rough estimate of Cedric's birthday. All of this points to a deadline sometime between September 19 and mid-October. While the available evidence doesn't give us an exact date, the evidence (Hermione being born in late September of 1980 and Cedric being born in October of 1977) is stacked against a Sept. 1 cut-off, or a cycle that follows the calendar year. Rather than being Flinty, JKR taking the trouble to confirm Hermione's birth year at this time seems, as someone else pointed out, more like her going out of her way to have Krum being taught to pronounce 'Hermione' in GoF. She's probably so sick of being asked she wanted to give a concrete answer once and for all, in hopes that the fandom could just move on. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Wed Apr 23 20:27:57 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 16:27:57 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] WHO changed Philosopher's to Sorcerer's and WHY? References: <8E6E58AE-7502-11D7-8066-000A27E2A402@dionysia.org> Message-ID: <02df01c309d6$e8883dc0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55989 Dan wrote: > The sub-thread in the "What is Canon?" thread a week ago got me > thinking about the "Sorcerer" vs. "Philosopher" thing. I haven't ever > seen a suitable explanation for why this word-switch occurred. Many > quick explanations have been thrown out, such as: "it was believed > American children would not know what a Philosopher was", or "the > publishers thought that those of us in the U.S. wouldn't "get it" ", or > "they thought that U.S. audiences would be turned off by the word > "Philosopher's" because it was too dull or something", or my favorite > :-), from Katy: "It's like that because of the differences of the > English language in the US as opposed to English in England." (Excuse > me...HAHAHAHAHA...ahem, sorry. Being someone who got his degree in > philosophy here in the U.S., I can tell you that not one time in any of > the many philosophy classes I attended was the word "sorcery" used in > place of "philosophy".) Hey, now that was taken WAY out of context and was not what i meant at all. Perhaps you should read all emails from a person on a particular subject before trying to make them look stupid. There was an entire thread devoted to the PS/SS dilemma a week or two ago and it was explained pretty well from what i remember. But no, i never heard any names or of any interviews on the subject. ~Katy~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From srsiriusblack at aol.com Wed Apr 23 20:32:25 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 16:32:25 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP and Les Miserables Message-ID: <8.36e02c11.2bd85259@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 55990 I truly think that the Javert-esque character will prove to be Fudge. He doesn't believe in Sirius' innocence, nor does he right now believe that Voldemort has regained his power and returned. He is on a man hunt for Sirius. -Snuffles just adding her two knuts "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom ========Original Message======== Subj: RE: [HPforGrownups] HP and Les Miserables Date: 4/22/2003 22:14:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time From: suzchiles at pobox.com Reply-to: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent from the Internet (Details) Richasi ponders: > I have one question though, and it is Off-Topic somewhat. > Who in the HP universe is Javert? ;) > > Richasi Well, I think Snape is quite Javert-ish when it comes to Harry. ;-) Suzanne ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bard7696 at aol.com Wed Apr 23 21:11:16 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 21:11:16 -0000 Subject: Muggle Hogwarts Notification and Attendance Options (WAS: Contacting parents) In-Reply-To: <3EA6D9B0.000001.48295@monica> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55991 > > Me- > > Firstly I do think that Hogwarts is probably an option for most kids (as > Phyllis sid, with Harry being the exception - something I heartily agree > with regardless of his destiny, because James and lily would no doubt have > wanted him to go to Hogwarts). > Hagrid says in PS/SS that "his name has been down ever since he was born" so it is probable that James and Lily were the ones who put his name down, which means it was definitely their wishes. > From dicentra at xmission.com Wed Apr 23 21:15:19 2003 From: dicentra at xmission.com (Dicentra spectabilis) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 21:15:19 -0000 Subject: So much for spoilers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55992 I found this on Book Magazine online (http://www.bookmagazine.com/archive/issue10/potter.shtml) It was written in May/June 2000, right before the release of GoF. At the end of the article there are a bunch of "spoilers." Check these out: * The fourth Harry Potter book is expected to be very long, possibly twice as long as the first book; this means it could be as long as five hundred pages. Uh, try 734? * Harry turns fourteen, and the Hogwarts pupils begin to notice the opposite sex, as hormones kick in. J.K. Rowling wants it to be true to life, so they all fall in love with the wrong people. Harry will not date either Hermione or Ginny though. I guess this is true enough, but does this apply only to GoF or to the whole series? Is this the demise of H/H and H/G? * The new Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher is rumored to be Davey Gudgeon?with his magical eye. True enough. * The first truly evil female character makes her debut. Would this be Rita Skeeter? She's a pain in the anatomy, but "truly evil"? I don't think so, unless we're going to find out more later. * The Quidditch World Cup will take place, featuring Ireland vs. Bulgaria. True. * There will be a number of deaths, including that of one character readers have grown to love. Rowling has said Voldemort will be shown not as a mere pantomime villain, but as a truly evil entity. Only by the killing of someone that readers care about, she says, does one get a sense of how evil it is to extinguish a human life. Cedric Diggory was a decent enough fellow, but someone readers have grown to love? Hardly. And "a number of deaths"? We had Cedric's and Crouch Sr's. As far as Voldemort not being a mere pantomime villian in GoF, the jury is still out on that. * Harry is in contact with Sirius Black. True. * Another Weasley, Ron's cousin, appears. Not. The character was written out. * Readers find out about other wizardry schools like Hogwarts and their pupils. True. * We learn why Voldemort is who he is . . . Not really. We learn what happened to Voldemort post-Harry and how he got back into his body. * The book's ending will be very frightening indeed. Not as frightening as the Yule Ball. :D So you see, whatever spoilers we've read so far about OoP might or might not be true, or at least not true in the way we might imagine. --Dicentra, who hopes that all the predictions, spoilers, and speculations are dead wrong. Just for fun. From cristina_angelo at yahoo.com Wed Apr 23 20:27:30 2003 From: cristina_angelo at yahoo.com (Cristina Rebelo Angelo) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 22:27:30 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Journalistic Accuracy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55993 -----Message d'origine----- De : derannimer [mailto:susannahlm at yahoo.com] Envoy : mercredi 23 avril 2003 22:09 Wizarding journalism in general may be a bit more tabloid-y, like that, kind of. Derannimer, who would take Rita over Geraldo any day Me: But... certainly! Wouldn't you if your pics moved? :-) Cristina, who would have stayed in journalism if muggle front pages were as fun as the ones on The Daily Prophet.. ************************** Cristina Rebelo ngelo Any attached file not mentioned in the body of the message may be a virus; if present, delete it for the sake of your computer, and inform the sender. Thank you. "Quand on n'a que l'amour/ Pour tracer un chemin/ Et forcer le destin/ A chaque carrefour Quand on n'a que l'amour/ Pour parler aux canons/ Et rien qu'une chanson/ Pour coinvancre un tambour Alors sans avoir rien/ Que la force d'aimer/ Nous aurons dans nos mains/ Amis le monde entier" J.Brel 1956 From Dionysos at Dionysia.org Wed Apr 23 21:04:05 2003 From: Dionysos at Dionysia.org (Dan Delaney) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 17:04:05 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] WHO changed Philosopher's to Sorcerer's and WHY? In-Reply-To: <02df01c309d6$e8883dc0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> Message-ID: <1E0B2961-75CF-11D7-9775-000A27E2A402@dionysia.org> No: HPFGUIDX 55994 On Wednesday, April 23, 2003, at 04:27 PM, Katy Cartee wrote: > Hey, now that was taken WAY out of context and was not what i meant at > all. Perhaps you should read all emails from a person on a particular > subject before trying to make them look stupid. Sorry, Katy. I didn't word that very well, did I? It wasn't my intention to make you look stupid. --Dan From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Wed Apr 23 21:19:02 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 21:19:02 -0000 Subject: The timeline on the DVD *confirms* canon; In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55995 Barb wrote: > Given that most Muggle-born families we hear of (Hermione's, Lily's, > Justin's, Colin's) are rather pleased to have a magical person in > the family, if it means that student foregoing a year of Muggle > school and starting Hogwarts instead, I hardly think they're going > to complain. As the Hogwarts education doesn't seem to follow > logically on a Muggle education anyway, the parents might think that > it's of little importance whether their child goes through another > year of English grammar, History, Maths, etc. when he or she could > be learning to repot mandrakes. Can I just chime in here in support of Barb's excellent summary. While it is true that Hogwarts follows many of the patterns of English (not Scottish) secondary education, there is evidently very little connection between Hogwarts and actual Muggle schools. That seems to me to be completely consistent with the wizarding attitude to the Muggle world generally. The letters go out far too late to help Muggle parents who will by then have gone through nearly a year of heartache trying to get their child to the right school (JKR signals she is aware of this by mentioning Stonewall High and Smeltings), and there is no apparent support for Muggleborn children in finding Diagon Alley, Platform 9 3/4 etc. So it seems entirely consistent that McGonagall, relying only on the Quill, would pay no attention whatsoever to the current educational attainment of future Hogwarts pupils. If Hermione is only in Year 5 of a Muggle school (Harry would have been in Year 6 at the beginning of PS), that is of no consequence. The Quill says it's time, so to Hogwarts she goes. It follows that the rigidity of English school cutoff dates is in fact completely irrelevant to discussions of Hermione's age unless it can be shown Hogwarts itself conforms to them. > Rather than being Flinty, JKR taking the trouble to > confirm Hermione's birth year at this time seems, as someone else > pointed out, more like her going out of her way to have Krum being > taught to pronounce 'Hermione' in GoF. She's probably so sick of > being asked she wanted to give a concrete answer once and for all, > in hopes that the fandom could just move on. Ah, so she has yet to learn that the words 'fandom' and 'move on' are incompatible? Poor thing. David From yutu at wanadoo.es Wed Apr 23 21:04:15 2003 From: yutu at wanadoo.es (izaskun granda) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 23:04:15 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hagrid's innocence References: Message-ID: <001f01c309db$e69e2ec0$970a6750@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 55996 Janet Anderson wrote: But you don't have to finish your Hogwarts education (or even start one) to have a wand. All the Hogwarts students have wands from the beginning of their first year. Likewise the Beauxbatons and Durmstrang students. *All* grownup wizards have wands except criminals, as far as I can see. The reason Hagrid's wand was broken is that he *was* being treated as a criminal (it's possible that he'd have gone to Azkaban if he had been older). Me: Right, all Hogwarts students have a wand, but they can't use it outside school. I think you have to be a fully trained wizard/witch to be allowed to use your wand in the real world. And Hagrid is not. Cheers, Izaskun From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 23 21:19:57 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 21:19:57 -0000 Subject: James was a Gryffindor Chaser (WAS: Muggle-borns in the future) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55997 Tom wrote: > We don't even know for sure that *James* was a Gryffindor, never > mind Pettigrew. and Darrin responded: > There are really strong indications that James was a Gryffindor. > JKR gave an interview where she was asked "What position did James > play for Gryffindor?" and she said "Seeker." Now me: Aaaaaaaarrgggghh! Movie contamination! The movie showed a medal which said that James was a Seeker, but JKR has said he was a Chaser. Here's the interview segment: Q: "What position did James play on the Gryffindor Quidditch team? Was it seeker like Harry, or something different?" JKR: "James was Chaser." and the link: http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript2.htm Since JKR didn't disagree that James was in Gryffindor, I take that as fairly good evidence that he was. In the same interview, JKR was asked what house Lily was in, and she responded "Gryffindor (naturally)." So if it's natural for Lily to have been in Gryffindor, it would also seem natural for James to have been in Gryffindor as well (especially for those of us who believe that James and Harry are Gryffindor's descendants!). ~Phyllis From yutu at wanadoo.es Wed Apr 23 21:15:24 2003 From: yutu at wanadoo.es (izaskun granda) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 23:15:24 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Letting People Know About Sirius/Pettigrew (Was: Re: Contacting parents) References: Message-ID: <003101c309dd$75ae3780$970a6750@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 55998 Bill wrote: If Dumbledore were to have gone public first, then I would think that Sirius would at least be given veritasirum first, if only to answer any possible doubts in the public mind. Me: But veritaserum is not that reliable, Crouch Jr. confessed under its effect and still Fudge refused to believe what he told, because he thought Crouch Jr. was mad and his story was the result of a disturbed mind. "He was a raving lunatic! From what Minerva and Severus have told me, he seems to have thought he was doing it all on You-know-who's instructions". So Sirius version under veritaserum wouldn't be believed, everyone thinks he's mad, the way he reacted after "Pettigrew's death" laughing like a maniac, and after all those years in Azkaban... And DD must be quite aware of it. If Fudge doesn't believe Crouch's version of things, after Cedric's death and Harry's atempted muder, he is certainly not going to believe that Pettigrew has been living as a rat for 13 years, that he's the bad guy while Sirius is inocent. And I don't blame him, it's a quite unbelievable story, isn't it? Izaskun From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Wed Apr 23 21:33:08 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 21:33:08 -0000 Subject: So much for spoilers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 55999 Ooh, what fun! Dicentra wrote: > I found this on Book Magazine online > (http://www.bookmagazine.com/archive/issue10/potter.shtml) > Harry will not > date either Hermione or Ginny though. > Is this the demise of H/H and H/G? I fear fans of these shipping positions will find this unconvincing. Surely your true obsessive places these romances firmly post-canon to ensure disappointment is avoided? > * The first truly evil female character makes her debut. > > Would this be Rita Skeeter? She's a pain in the anatomy, but "truly > evil"? I don't think so, unless we're going to find out more later. Could it be the lady in the Pensieve - though we don't know for sure how evil Fleur Delacour's sister is. Or Padma Patil. > * There will be a number of deaths, including that of one character > readers have grown to love. Rowling has said Voldemort will be shown > not as a mere pantomime villain, but as a truly evil entity. > > Cedric Diggory was a decent enough fellow, but someone readers have > grown to love? Hardly. And "a number of deaths"? We had Cedric's > and Crouch Sr's. As far as Voldemort not being a mere pantomime > villian in GoF, the jury is still out on that. Bertha Jorkins and Frank Bryce. There wasn't much left of the younger Crouch, either. Tom Riddle is IMO far more sinister than Panto!Voldemort. > * We learn why Voldemort is who he is . . . > > Not really. We learn what happened to Voldemort post-Harry and how he > got back into his body. I suppose we get confirmation of the centrality of his quest for immortality. > * The book's ending will be very frightening indeed. > > Not as frightening as the Yule Ball. :D or indeed the Pensieve scenes. > So you see, whatever spoilers we've read so far about OoP might or > might not be true, or at least not true in the way we might imagine. That seems to cover all the possibilities David From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 23 21:33:13 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 21:33:13 -0000 Subject: Allowing Hagrid to do Magic Openly (WAS: Hagrid's innocence) In-Reply-To: <001f01c309db$e69e2ec0$970a6750@takun> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56000 Janet Anderson wrote: > But you don't have to finish your Hogwarts education (or even > start one) to have a wand. and Izaskun responded: > Right, all Hogwarts students have a wand, but they can't use it > outside school. I think you have to be a fully trained wizard/witch > to be allowed to use your wand in the real world. And Hagrid is > not. Now me: I came across the following interview segment just now that I think at least partially addresses this issue: Q: "Since Hagrid's name was cleared in Book 2, will he ever be allowed to do magic openly again?" JKR: "He is allowed. He has been allowed to do magic openly ever since he became a teacher but because he was never fully trained his magic is never going to be what it should be. He is always going to be a bit inept." and the link: http://www.swns.com/vaults/rowling.htm This still doesn't answer the question of why he doesn't have a wand, though. Presumably if he's allowed to do magic openly, he should be allowed to have a wand with which to conduct that magic. IIRC, there are no more references to the flowery pink umbrella after book 2. So perhaps he does have a wand now, but we've just never seen it. Or perhaps the flowery pink umbrella works just fine for the "inept" magic he can perform with only 3 years of magical education. ~Phyllis From JessaDrow at aol.com Wed Apr 23 21:58:03 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 17:58:03 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: So much for spoilers Message-ID: <7a.3e24481d.2bd8666b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56001 In a message dated 4/23/03 5:36:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dfrankiswork at netscape.net writes: > >Harry will not > >date either Hermione or Ginny though. > >Is this the demise of H/H and H/G? > > I fear fans of these shipping positions will find this > unconvincing. Surely your true obsessive places these romances > firmly post-canon to ensure disappointment is avoided? > > >* The first truly evil female character makes her debut. > > > >Would this be Rita Skeeter? She's a pain in the anatomy, > but "truly > >evil"? I don't think so, unless we're going to find out more > later. > This wasn't spoilers for OOtP, this was spoilers for GoF. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bard7696 at aol.com Wed Apr 23 22:02:57 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 22:02:57 -0000 Subject: James was a Gryffindor Chaser (WAS: Muggle-borns in the future) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56002 > and Darrin responded: > > > There are really strong indications that James was a Gryffindor. > > JKR gave an interview where she was asked "What position did James > > play for Gryffindor?" and she said "Seeker." > > Now me: > > Aaaaaaaarrgggghh! Movie contamination! The movie showed a medal > which said that James was a Seeker, but JKR has said he was a Chaser. > > Here's the interview segment: > > Q: "What position did James play on the Gryffindor Quidditch team? > Was it seeker like Harry, or something different?" > > JKR: "James was Chaser." > > and the link: > http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript2.htm > Yeah, yeah, my memory was bad. But I think the point of non- disagreement (which you make later) is still good. > Since JKR didn't disagree that James was in Gryffindor, I take that > as fairly good evidence that he was. In the same interview, JKR was > asked what house Lily was in, and she responded "Gryffindor > (naturally)." So if it's natural for Lily to have been in > Gryffindor, it would also seem natural for James to have been in > Gryffindor as well (especially for those of us who believe that James > and Harry are Gryffindor's descendants!). > > ~Phyllis And again, if James was in Gryffindor, I find it hard to believe the other three Mauraders were in other houses. Simply finding the time to learn Animagus spells would seem to necessitate having the same common room, dormitory, etc. Darrin -- Movie Contamination would be an EXCELLENT name for a band From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Wed Apr 23 22:22:32 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 22:22:32 -0000 Subject: I love Theories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56003 theValk wrote: Sorry I cant precisely remember where I read that it was an excerpt from an interview. I think was on Harry Potter Lexicon but it could have been another page. Anyway it was in a link titled Mysteries or sonmething like that listed under Those which are confirmed by Jk herself. A student from a school asked the particular question will any of the students become animagii and JK replied in the manner I previously posted. I reply: Hmph. I'd love to read that, or no, wait, I wouldn't. Oooh, can't decide. ;-) I'm trying hard not to belabor the point (`cause I've discussed animagi several times recently) but I am hoping (fingers crossed, baby) that we don't meet more than one, or at max, two more animagi in the series. Otherwise, they won't be exciting or special anymore. theValk wrote: Most of course firstly assumed Harry and Hermione which is plausible, as they are intelligent. But PoA firmly distinguishes and is backed up in in GoF by the Krummy shark, the probability of successful animagus transfiguration is a matter of devoted practice for some length of time. In PoA I believe the reference to Sirius and James as being the most intelligent students that Lupin knows and GoF when Krum only manages a disfigured halfway transformation is better translated as canon that it is not the level of the wizards or witches intelligence that dictates their ability to transform. These high ranking students, James and Sirius with Lupins obvious admiration and Krum the quidditch prodigy and representative of the Durmstrang school at the Tri-wizard tournament, were yet hard pressed to manage the transformation. END QUOTE. I reply: This is just my opinion, but I'm not convinced that what Krum was doing was the same thing that James and his pals were doing. IMO, *they* were practicing a kind of magic that, when completed, would enable them to transfer *at will,* (without a specific spell,) into an animal form. What Krum did was try to *transfigure* himself into a shark. I believe that there's a difference between the magic that is involved with becoming an animagus, and the magic called transfiguration. First off, transfiguration requires a spell (and, I think, probably a wand,) but the animagus transformation does not (well, my guess is that it does *at first* to establish the magic, but not once the spell/s are completed.) Second, one can choose what s/he wants to transfigure *into,* but IMHO, the indications from interviews (again, this is simply my take) suggest that a person's animagical form is not entirely a matter of their own choosing. In other words, Sirius could likely transfigure himself into a bird with a spell (assuming he's skilled enough, which I think he is,) but without a spell, the only thing he can become is Padfoot the dog. IMHO, the fact that McGonagall, the transfiguration teacher, is also an animag'a' tends to confuse the point, along with the fact that James' wand was good for transfiguration. theValk wrote: I suppose Ginny may illegally transfigure, it is as likely to happen as not. I reply: Well, again, I'm not sure that I believe it can legally be done by a student. AFAIK, this hasn't been explicitly covered in the canon we have to date, but my guess is that, like Apparation (which Percy takes the test for after his seventh year at Hogwarts,) this is magic that is considered too complex for a student. It probably requires some kind of test, and we do know that there's a registry of animagi at the Ministry. So, if Ginny's going to become an animag'a' by the seventh book, I'm guessing that the only way she can do so is illegally. And IMHO, she might need people to do it *with* too, so it'd be interesting to see what comes of the your theory. theValk wrote: THe canon clue is that the Tom Riddle diary was hidden in the transfiguration book that belonged to Ginny weasley in Flourish and Blotts by Lucius Malfoy. On the way to platform 9 and three quarters Ginny cried out to the family that they must return home for her diary. Ginny had already opened and preread her transfiguration book then hadnt she!? Before her first transfiguration class. Now perhaps she was simply a diligent student taking an interest in all her books or perhaps she simply stumbled across the diary by accident. But the probability that she had some prior interest in the power of transfiguration in definitely canonised in these two chapters of CoS. END QUOTE. I reply: Hmmm, interesting take on that. I can see where you're coming from. I'm not sure that I totally agree, I mean, even lackluster-when-it- comes-to-studying Harry looked at his books before his first day at school. And Ginny tells us that she'd been anticipating going to Hogwarts since her eldest brother Bill went, so I personally think that she was just carousing through the books because she was excited and curious and glad that it is finally her turn. Then again, Ginny's seen six brothers enter school, and by now I'd bet that she might have a very good idea of what interests her most. So, in that sense, she really could have a deep interest in Transfiguration. :-) theValk wrote: Note that in the first book James wand was purported to be mahogany pliable and excellent for transfiguration. James was a graceful and magical animagus and his wand dictated that he would be. If we are to presume that anyone of the Hogwarts students we know will become animagi we should probably take a look at their wands for a clue. It wont be Ron his is Willow. PoA chapter four. END QUOTE. I reply: Well, again, I'll point back to my thought earlier ? I don't think that Transfiguration is the same thing as becoming an animagus. However, I do think it's neat that James' wand would be good for Transfiguration, and that it's also neat that he became an animagus. So, perhaps the two kinds of magic are connected or similar to each other. In other words, is it a coincidence? In life, I sometimes accept coincidence. But in fiction? Not most of the time. I agree that there's probably a correlation. This is all just me, though. :-) I personally will be disappointed if we see any more animagi, any more time turners, and (although I don't think that it can be avoided) Polyjuice potion. IMHO, JKR should come up with some newer, more interesting and unexpected ways to create sudden plot twists and revelations, rather than falling back on the ones we already know. She reused both animagi and Polyjuice potion in GoF. Come on, JKR, give us something new now. :-) -Tom From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Apr 23 22:31:14 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 22:31:14 -0000 Subject: What is Canon? In-Reply-To: <02c901c309d5$4cc55270$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56004 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Katy Cartee" wrote: > > ...edited... > > bboy_mn wrote: > > > I do take JKR's statements as 'gospel', but it is at times ambiguous. > ~Katy~: > > She's no more ambiguous than the 'gospel' of the Bible is...in fact, she's much less so. Some of her words are open for interpretation, true. But after the series has ended, i believe we will know exactly what she was trying to get across. And at that point, i don't see how anyone could NOT accept her words as "pseudo-canon" at the very least. bboy_mn: In a manner of speaking, when Judgement Day (the end of the series) comes we will know the truth, just like in the Bible. I have to go back to the 'wizards can't choose their animagus form' issue. I don't consider JKR's statement to date on this issue as canon because she hasn't said it point blank as a statement of fact. She said it in more than one interview (to the best of my memory) in a way that would lead us to this reasonable conclusion. But it is just that, OUR conclusion based on what we see as a reasonable interpretation of what she said. That is no more valid or canonical than a televangelist interpretation of the Bible. On the other hand, if JKR says that James was a Gryffindor, then there is not room for interpretation, if she states it as a fact, then it's a fact. That is what I would consider canon, statements of fact by the author. JKR is vague and coy, sometimes down-rigtht sneaky in her answers. There are things she can and does say in interviews that are not statements of fact, but are setups for things that will happen in the future. We see these same 'things are not as they appear' statements in the story. So I will agree we need to be cautious about how literally we take JKR's statements, but I also say the when she states a clear fact, it becomes gospel. Example, she said James played Chaser; she said it point blank in response to a direct question. So it is a fact that James played Chaser. However, that does not mean that was the one and only position he player. Personally, I think Harry and Ron will play Beaters before the series is over (that's my story and I'm sticking to it). So, I won't say that everything JKR says is canon, but when she states a clear fact, it is just that, a fact and therefore canon. The problem comes in our interpretation of which of her statements are indeed clear fact. JKR word CAN BE canon, but that doesn't mean it is ALWAYS canon. bboy_mn > > ...edited... > > ~Katy~ From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Wed Apr 23 22:43:20 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 22:43:20 -0000 Subject: What is Canon? In-Reply-To: <02c901c309d5$4cc55270$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56005 Steve wrote: The problem with interviews is that JKR's answers aren't always clear-cut. So what happens then? We are stuck with the same problem we have with many of the issues in the book, we have to use reasonable analysis and the application of our imaginations to create a reasonable extension or interpretation of the wizard world. The problem is, we frequently do not reach the same conclusions from analysing the same information, and of course, that's what makes our discussions so lively. I do take JKR's statements as 'gospel', but it is at times ambiguous. END QUOTE. I wrote previously: So, that's why I (and I believe I'm probably in a tiny minority here) am almost tempted to suggest that the interviews are *more* important than the books themselves, because of the `what's-going-to- happen' factor, of which only the author is aware, but which has implications for what is contained in the books themselves. Katy replied: After reading your reasoning, i would agree with you that the interviews are more 'important' than the books, but not 'more canon.' Do you get me? I respond: Yup, Katy, I gotcha, and agree totally with both of you. :-) Thanks for the distinction, btw. For the purposes of our list here, I totally concur that we definitely need an established set of materials that we can accept as `what-is-the-case,' so that we can debate and reason from there forward. I don't dispute that canon should be the four books, in reverse order. I'd actually argue that this should be considered canon *exclusively,* with movies, games, and merchandise considered `pseudo- canon,' to use someone's term from earlier this discussion. As for fanfiction, as far as I'm concerned it's fun to read/write, but has no credibility whatsoever. I'm not ragging on the fanfic community out there, incidentally. What I'm saying is that the possibilities that people come up with are interesting, but I don't accept them as in any way indicative of the truths of the Potterverse as we know them. And as for the interviews, I like Katy's distinction: `more important' vs. `more canon.' In that sense, I agree ? the interviews can reveal stuff that is to come, and that we might never see in a book. In that sense, "importance" is a very good way to describe how I feel about the interviews. But when it comes down to it, can they be hard-core canon? I'm not so sure. No matter what, they're not the books themselves. I think you're right on the money here. To have group dialogue, we need standards, and as Steve points out, the interviews aren't coordinated or consistent enough to warrant treatment as `established fact.' -Tom, who thinks that the rules of `canon' that our list has established are fantastic, and who is fascinated by this discussion as he has never been involved with other `fandoms' prior to this one. From flamingstarchows at att.net Wed Apr 23 22:55:38 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (FlamingStar Chows) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 17:55:38 -0500 Subject: Muggle Hogwarts Notification and Attendance Options (WAS: Contacting parents) References: Message-ID: <01a901c309eb$75c4c460$d113570c@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 56006 > *unknown* > Firstly I do think that Hogwarts is probably an option for most kids (as > Phyllis sid, with Harry being the exception - something I heartily agree > with regardless of his destiny, because James and lily would no doubt have > wanted him to go to Hogwarts). > From: darrin_burnett Hagrid says in PS/SS that "his name has been down ever since he was born" so it is probable that James and Lily were the ones who put his name down, which means it was definitely their wishes. ----Me---- I always thought it was a refence to the magic quill that writes down the names of magical children at birth. ~Cathy~ From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Apr 23 23:09:46 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 00:09:46 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Allowing Hagrid to do Magic Openly (WAS: Hagrid's innocence) References: Message-ID: <3EA71D3A.000001.49069@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 56007 Phyllis - This still doesn't answer the question of why he doesn't have a wand, though. Presumably if he's allowed to do magic openly, he should be allowed to have a wand with which to conduct that magic. Now me - Perhaps he couldn't afford one at first (I don't know how much he's paid and he does live simply but maybe he has something else he sends money on *cough*dragon eggs*cough* ) and then simply hadn't got around to buying one. After all a wand may seem vital if you're Ron but if you're Hagrid and have been managing perfectly well without one for nearly 50 years it's probably not top of your list of priorities. K From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Wed Apr 23 23:21:47 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 23:21:47 -0000 Subject: Re Power of Magic In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030421090550.00a45210@pop.iprimus.com.au> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56008 Mac wrote: My initial reaction was that Hermione was a lot more adept at spell magic than Harry. Not only had she memorised a lot of spells, but I cannot recall an instance where she misused a spell or where a spell failed to work for her. I reply: Sorry about the gender confusion there, Mac. I have a buddy who goes by the nickname `Mack,' so I guess I just did the whole association thing. ;-) One instance (which might not be all that fair to her) in which Hermione wasn't able to use a spell properly comes in PoA, Ch.20, 383, when she couldn't use the Patronus Charm to help Harry. Granted, Hermione hadn't practiced the spell, so I'll give her the benefit of the doubt here. But still, she couldn't do it. Mac wrote: I agree that I feel that magic is a natural ability - or more precisely, a talent. Just as some people take to playing a musical instrument almost without effort, I am totally hopeless at it and could never get that natural co-ordination between the music, my brain and my fingers. It's a talent I lack. I could be taught to read music and to understand how it works, but actually making it work is something I can't do - because I have virtually no musical talent. If magic were music, I'd be a squib at best. I reply: I think you're working from different perspectives here. First off, everyone at Hogwarts has some magical talent, otherwise they wouldn't be there. Mac wrote: So if you equate Hogwarts to something like the Academy of Music, where musically talented children are sent for an education, then you have some children who are prodigies, some who are very skilled and the remaining majority who are just technically competent. The music is the same for all. The notes are there to be read and played. I'm beginning to think that this is something like Rowling had in mind. Anyone can open a piece of sheet music and reel off what the notes are - but only the musically talented can take the sheet music and turn it into something like the composer intended. Dumbledore, for instance, could perhaps spin out Snape's Expeliamus and knock half the student body through a window. Ron might only manage to lift Hermione's cat. It may be a matter of degree + ability = strength. END QUOTE. I reply: I'm not sure that I agree with your analogy, so let's return to the beginning. Normally, to get into a school like an Academy of Music, there's an audition and selection process, and this is something that the Hogwarts students don't have to go through. JKR says that McGonagall has a magical quill that records the names of babies born with magical abilities. At the appropriate time those kids are sent letters akin to the one Harry received. In other words, there's no auditioning for Hogwarts. You're magical? You're in. So, in a School of Music, you'll get kids of differing levels of ability, naturally, as you have at Hogwarts. But outside the school are still people that can read and write and play music, but weren't good enough to get in. This isn't the case with Hogwarts and magic. In the WW, if you've got the propensity for magic, then you're in. Done deal. Once you're in though, it's not a matter of `say it and go.' As Percy said in PoA "Play to your strengths, Harry." (CoS, Ch.14, 252) Moody also says this in GoF: "I'm just going to give you some good, general advice. And the first bit is ? play to your strengths." (GoF, Ch.20, 344) This is what I was trying to indicate in my last post ? it's not a matter of having talent, or even magical ability. It's a matter of having abilities in a *specific* kind of magic. Music, like magic, is written in a language. Presumably, anyone can be taught to `read' the music. And I'd guess that, presumably, anyone can be taught to `read' magical spells. Now, you go from `reading' to `playing.' Just because you can `read' music or a magical spell doesn't mean that you can `play' the music or `use' the magic. A third grader could `read' Rachmaninoff. Play? Only the simplest stuff. Again, I'll refer to the Patronus Charm here. Harry is repeatedly foiled by the difficulty of the Charm, and he knew the words `expecto patronum' before his first attempt. What Harry seems to get are moments where he is `in-the-zone' and able to use magic that's beyond his normal level ? at other times, he's stumped by the simplest spells, like the Summoning Charm. Hermione is different ? she studies chronically. And in her case, studying pays off, because I believe she's naturally gifted. In PS/SS, Hermione is the only one to get the levitation charm to work without massive difficulty. We see it again in GoF, when McGonagall says: "Miss Granger remains the only person in this class who has managed to turn a pincushion into a satisfactory hedgehog." (GoF, Ch.15, 233) Mac wrote: But I still have to wonder - could any 12 year-old twirl her/his wand and say the death curse and kill someone? I reply: No way. Crouch!Moody tells us this in GoF, Ch.14, 217: "Avada Kedavra's a curse that needs a powerful bit of magic behind it ? you could all get your wands out now and point them at me and say the words, and I doubt I'd get so much as a nosebleed." IMHO, powerful, well-trained, well-studied students or not, Harry and Hermione could not perform Avada Kedavra on the first try. And now, take your suggestion and apply it to the other cases we've seen. If Hermione's the only one who can transfigure a proper pincushion by the beginning of her fourth year, it's not because she knows any more than anyone else - presumably, McGonagall is teaching them all the same way. So, Dean Thomas knows the words, but his pincushion is still afraid of being stuck with a pin. In other words, it's not a matter of knowing what to say, or even how to say it. It's more of a matter of playing to your strengths and having confidence, which seems to make all the difference. -Tom From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Apr 23 23:32:21 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 23:32:21 -0000 Subject: Hagrid, Magic, and Gifts (slightly OT) In-Reply-To: <3EA71D3A.000001.49069@monica> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56009 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" wrote: > > Phyllis - > > This still doesn't answer the question of why he doesn't have a and, > though. > Now me - (Kathryn) > > Perhaps he couldn't afford one at first and then simply hadn't got > around to buying one. ...edited... > > K bboy_mn: I'm straying far off topic here, but I've always hoped that Harry, Hermione, and Ron would ask Hagrid to meet them in Diagon Alley during the summer. When they meet, H/R/H take Hagrid to Ollivander's and buy him a new wand as a gift. It's only G10 (?50 or $80). Split three ways, that's $27 apiece. (Note: I think the Omnoculars were G10 each, and Harry bought 3 pair.) Bet a Galleon it would make Hagrid cry. I also keep hoping that Harry will have Ron and Hermione kick in a couple galleons apiece, and he will make up the difference in cost, and present the Weasleys with a new owl as a token of his appreciation for all they have done for him. I think Harry would have Ron and Hermione put something in so Harry could say the gift was from all of them. It's possible the Weasleys would feel uncomfortable taking the gift if they knew it was just from Harry. As far as Hargid, I think it is generally accepted that he is innocent of the injury and death of students during both openings of the Chamber. The only thing that hasn't happened is an official hearing to overturn his expulsion and clear any criminal record he may have. But from a functional perspective, I think all people consider him cleared, and he is able to function as if his name were cleared. I still want to see the official hearing and I want it on record that he is innocent, and of course, I want him to get a new wand. bboy_mn From bard7696 at aol.com Thu Apr 24 01:18:40 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 01:18:40 -0000 Subject: Muggle Hogwarts Notification and Attendance Options (WAS: Contacting parents In-Reply-To: <01a901c309eb$75c4c460$d113570c@pavilion> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56010 > > > ----Me---- > I always thought it was a refence to the magic quill that writes down the > names of magical children at birth. > ~Cathy~ I checked the Lexicon because I couldn't remember anything like that in the books, and turns out it wasn't in the books, but in JKR's Scholastic interview, which I've not seen. But indeed, you are correct. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. Darrin -- See, Cindy? I can be nice! :) From grosich at nyc.rr.com Thu Apr 24 01:26:38 2003 From: grosich at nyc.rr.com (Gina R Rosich) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 21:26:38 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] So much for spoilers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56011 On 4/23/03 5:15 PM, "Dicentra spectabilis" had this to say: > I found this on Book Magazine online > (http://www.bookmagazine.com/archive/issue10/potter.shtml) > > It was written in May/June 2000, right before the release of GoF. At > the end of the article there are a bunch of "spoilers." Check these out: > > > > > * The first truly evil female character makes her debut. > > Would this be Rita Skeeter? She's a pain in the anatomy, but "truly > evil"? I don't think so, unless we're going to find out more later. > > ME: Well, she didn?t have a very large role, but. . . What about Narcissa Malfoy? She made her debut at the Quidditch World Cup. Gina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bard7696 at aol.com Thu Apr 24 01:28:11 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 01:28:11 -0000 Subject: Money issues that have puzzled me. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56012 We know that money in the wizard world is used to buy goods. Wands, robes, Quidditch supplies, potion ingredients, food, books, etc. Diagon Alley is filled with shops. But what about services? Are there Wizard contractors to build houses, or are those done through magic? How about plumbers to fix problems with those magical faucets Molly uses? How about problems with those Ministry cars or vehicles such as the Knight Bus. What got me thinking about this was actually some movie poisoning. Roger Ebert's review of Chamber commented on how much bigger the Quidditch field was and pondered, parenthetically, whether it was due to donations from wealthy alums. Then I remembered a reference in GoF to Lucius donating to St. Mungo's hospital. Was it for a new wing, I wonder? Are there actual Wizard Construction firms, that build houses, businesses, or offices for the Ministry of Magic? And who makes additions and/or repairs to Hogwarts itself? Things I ponder while I'm at work and nothing much is going on... Darrin -- And don't even get me started on wondering if Harry and Ron will need to start shaving soon From devika at sas.upenn.edu Thu Apr 24 03:47:19 2003 From: devika at sas.upenn.edu (Devika) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 03:47:19 -0000 Subject: So much for spoilers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56013 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dicentra spectabilis" wrote: > I found this on Book Magazine online > (http://www.bookmagazine.com/archive/issue10/potter.shtml) > > It was written in May/June 2000, right before the release of GoF. At > the end of the article there are a bunch of "spoilers." Check these out: Me: This is great! I've always thought that we should make a record of all of the rumors and serious speculation about OoP so that we can check it afterwards to see how much of it actually came true the way we thought it would. At the very least, I think it would be entertaining. I had forgotten a lot of the speculation for GoF, so I'm glad you found this. > > * Harry turns fourteen, and the Hogwarts pupils begin to notice the > opposite sex, as hormones kick in. J.K. Rowling wants it to be true to > life, so they all fall in love with the wrong people. Harry will not > date either Hermione or Ginny though. > > I guess this is true enough, but does this apply only to GoF or to the > whole series? Is this the demise of H/H and H/G? > Me: I'm not even going to go there. No SHIPs for me, thank you very much. I'm keeping my feet firmly planted on dry land :) > * The first truly evil female character makes her debut. > > Would this be Rita Skeeter? She's a pain in the anatomy, but "truly > evil"? I don't think so, unless we're going to find out more later. Me: I remember this clue. After reading GoF, I thought it was the woman in the Pensieve. Many list members seem to think that she is Mrs. Lestrange, and I see no reason why that can't be true. I'm not so sure Rita is truly evil, but we'll see what she does with the juicy information she has after the end of GoF. I shudder to think of it...Rita definitely makes me nervous, even if she isn't evil. > > > * There will be a number of deaths, including that of one character > readers have grown to love. Rowling has said Voldemort will be shown > not as a mere pantomime villain, but as a truly evil entity. Only by > the killing of someone that readers care about, she says, does one get > a sense of how evil it is to extinguish a human life. > > Cedric Diggory was a decent enough fellow, but someone readers have > grown to love? Hardly. And "a number of deaths"? We had Cedric's > and Crouch Sr's. As far as Voldemort not being a mere pantomime > villian in GoF, the jury is still out on that. > Me: I'm pretty sure Cedric was the character mentioned here. We may not have loved him, but we were at least a bit upset that he died (at least I was), and I seem to remember JKR saying that it was the way he died that really showed just how evil Voldemort was. He had no regard whatsoever for Cedric's life. To Voldemort, poor Cedric was just a "spare" that had to be eliminated. As for the "number of deaths," I agree with the person who mentioned Frank Bryce and Bertha Jorkins, as well as Crouch Sr. > * Harry is in contact with Sirius Black. > > True. > Me: Hopefully he has even more contact with Sirius in OoP, i.e. hopefully Sirius gets more page time :) > > * We learn why Voldemort is who he is . . . > > Not really. We learn what happened to Voldemort post-Harry and how he > got back into his body. > Me: We sort of hear about Voldemort's childhood. That doesn't exactly explain why Voldemort is who he is, but it at least gives us some more information about him. > * The book's ending will be very frightening indeed. > > Not as frightening as the Yule Ball. :D > Me: I did find the end of the book rather frightening. I can't wait for the next one! It is supposed to be much darker... > So you see, whatever spoilers we've read so far about OoP might or > might not be true, or at least not true in the way we might imagine. > Me: Very true. That's why I think we should keep track of what we thought would be in future books, not only OoP. Just so we can all gloat (or laugh at ourselves) later. > --Dicentra, who hopes that all the predictions, spoilers, and > speculations are dead wrong. Just for fun. Me: Well, I wouldn't mind if some of the SHIPs were proven wrong...oops, I've gotten my feet wet. I'm going back to shore ;) As for the rest of it, anyway, I would just like to be able to go back to it after reading OoP and think about how funny it was that I completely misinterpreted the spoilers we have now. It is more fun to be surprised, after all. Devika, who is reaching the end of the semester and will soon have more time to reread HP for the umpteenth time :) From oppen at mycns.net Wed Apr 23 18:39:12 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 13:39:12 -0500 Subject: Early admission---a thought Message-ID: <000201c30a17$2dfd33c0$86570043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 56014 One reason I can think of for Hogwarts being an exception to the usual British school rules about admissions could be for the student's own safety. We know that untrained, underage magical children can and do produce unexpected magical effects, from the account of Harry's own pre-Hogwarts-Letter-life with the Dursleys. If Hermione is as powerful as I think she is, I could easily see her producing some things that were more spectacular than Harry's re-growing hair or Incredible Shrinking Sweater. In cases like that, the usual rules could be bent to get her into a safe environment and get her started on her training ASAP, if only for the sake of safety. Once at Hogwarts, a place designed specifically to deal with magical problems, unexpected magic would be less terrifying for everybody involved, (the student herself not least!) and could be much more easily repaired. From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Wed Apr 23 23:57:29 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 23:57:29 -0000 Subject: SHIPping Attitudes // Hermione's Age In-Reply-To: <20030423003423.41448.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56015 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Petra Pan wrote: > Well, at least one shipper somewhere > (can't for the life of me remember > exactly where in Potterdom) argued > that if Hermione is older than Harry > (or did she say Ron?) then they can't > become a couple...'cause that'd be too > 'ewww.' > > I really hope that there's more of a > basis for the interest in Hermione's > age than this but I've never seen it > articulated anywhere else either. > Anyone? Does this issue come up (more > than just in passing) anywhere else > with the kind of passion it usually > exhibits in shipping threads? Actually, I think Hermione's age was controversal only because of the Hermione is Harry's long lost sister theory. For it to be viable she had to be older than him by at least 10 months (well possibly nine but I'd like to give Lily a little break!) Anyways, if Harry and Hermione were brother/sister then there would be a definite "EW" factor in the H/H ship. However, the dvd timeline squashes almost any chance of the H/H brother/sister. Serena From KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET Thu Apr 24 02:28:42 2003 From: KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET (Linda) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 02:28:42 -0000 Subject: Contacting parents, Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56016 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "maria_kirilenko" wrote: >>I suppose you're right. But I still think that Dumbledore should've told the Weasleys about Scabbers. Me: Hi. I'm a newbie and I have been following this thread for a couple of days. It seems to me that we may be reading too much into the Dumbledore/Scabbers scenario. True, no where in cannon is there any evidence that Dumbledore ever discussed the situation with Arthur or Molly Weasley, however, there is no evidence in cannon that he did not do so either. The way the events at the end of POA happened, there was no opportunity for him to speak to them before JKR brought the book to it's end. There is no mention of it (from this angle at least) in GOF. The conversation may have taken place any time between the conclusion of POA and the conclusion of GOF and we wouldn't necessarily have heard about it. This becomes even more plausible when you consider the length of and amount of information in GOF. Who knows how many (relatively) small events like this JKR has written but not included in her final draft? Any thoughts? Linda ( who is so glad to find a board like this as her husband thinks she is nuts) From erinellii at yahoo.com Thu Apr 24 03:21:01 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 03:21:01 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Oedipus Potter (tongue slightly in cheek but serious point) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56017 "jotwo2003" wrote: > As for Ginny, she is described as small and red haired. That > description could fit Lily as she appears in the Mirror of Erised. > > I can quite understand if JKR goes for the option of Harry and Ginny falling in love because they met at Kings Cross Station, in honour of her own parents' love story. In fact the author's emotional commitment to the place is what makes me think that this is what will happen and I understand and respect that. But is it OK if Harry marries his Mum? What do other people think? Me: Well, Harry never knew his Mom. Heck, he never knew what his mom looked like until he was 11. So I don't think it really is the same thing at all as when a regular man marries someone who looks, speaks, and acts like his mother. And there are a lot of small, redhaired girls in the world. I think it would be even more weird if Harry avoided dating any of them because they might sort of maybe look just a little bit like his mother. Also, Ginny has brown eyes, and Lily, as we all know, had green. So in sum, no, I don't think it would be weird at all. Now if Harry does turn out to date Susan Bones, and Susan Bones turns out to have red hair and green eyes, then I might start to wonder about JKR. But at this point, and with Ginny, it's all good to me. Erin From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Apr 24 06:53:16 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 06:53:16 -0000 Subject: Money issues that have puzzled me. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56018 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > We know that money in the wizard world is used to buy goods. > > Wands, robes, Quidditch supplies, potion ingredients, food, books, etc. > Diagon Alley is filled with shops. > > But what about services? > > Are there Wizard contractors to build houses, or are those done > through magic? How about plumbers to fix problems with those magical > faucets Molly uses? How about problems with those Ministry cars or > vehicles such as the Knight Bus. > bboy_mn: Yes, yes, and yes. I think there are all those things in the wizard would, they just go about it different. Just like most of us use Home Depot or Menards are a resource to fix up our homes, I suspect the are wizard construction books full of construction spells. And just like us muggles, if the project gets to big, or you have no talent for construction and repair, you call in the professionals. I can't see any reason why these things wouldn't exist, but of course, so far we haven't seen anything in the books that would confirm it. However, since there are obviously manufacturing companies like broom makers, cauldron makers, ink and quill makers, furniture makers, etc...., one would assume that other material things like houses would also have to be 'made'. As a side note, keep in mind that when they build house in Europe, they build them with the expectation that they will last 500 years. Most houses in the US are luck if they ever make it to 100. So, I suspect that wizard houses last a long long long time, so construction isn't required that often. > > Things I ponder while I'm at work and nothing much is going on... > > Darrin > -- And don't even get me started on wondering if Harry and Ron will > need to start shaving soon. bboy_mn: Well, Harry never seems to get a haircut and if he does, the next day his hair looks the same again. We haven't seen any place at Hogwarts for boys to get haircuts either. Once the boys learn magic, I suspect shaving is optional. That is, you only grow whiskers if you choose to do so, otherwise, your face stays clean. Just a thought. bboy_mn From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Thu Apr 24 08:02:47 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 24 Apr 2003 08:02:47 -0000 Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups Message-ID: <1051171367.453.69719.w67@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56019 Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups group. File : /Admin Files/ADMIN OoP Spoilers.txt Uploaded by : bluesqueak Description : ADMIN:OoP Spoilers You can access this file at the URL http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ADMIN%20OoP%20Spoilers.txt To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, bluesqueak From Ali at zymurgy.org Thu Apr 24 08:54:11 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 08:54:11 -0000 Subject: The timeline on the DVD *confirms* canon; In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56020 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "psychic_serpent" wrote: <<< other people who've posted here in the past have argued that there are in fact exceptions, because THEY are the exceptions. So, the fact that we've had folks speaking from personal experience, living, breathing examples of people who didn't have to wait a year to start school in the UK means that it DOES happen. For pete's sake, this is HERMIONE we're talking about! This girl is scarily smart. I don't think it's just because she's nearly a year older than most of the other students in her year.>>> I don't think anybody thinks that Hermione is smart *because* she's nearly a year older than Harry. And, yes, there are exceptions to the cut-off - although I've never heard of any in the State sector. To go back to personal experiences, my own brother was doing Maths O'level questions when he was 10 - 6 years too early. There was no question of him jumping years, instead, the local borough advisor suggested to my parents that the State system could NOT accomodate him, and he was better off in the private system. To this extent, I think our State system is much more rigid than the US system. It is possible that Hermione was always educated in the private sector, and was always a year in advance. This would still leave me with the question about how the Quill would have looked ahead. There's an easy enough answer - it's magic. The question which is never answered though is why Hermione's young age is never mentioned. It would be. Hermione is a little gauche when it comes to self-advertisement over her grades etc, and I cannot help thinking that even if her age wasn't generally known, Harry would know. <<< All of this points to a deadline sometime between September 19 and mid-October. While the available evidence doesn't give us an exact date, the evidence (Hermione being born in late September of 1980 and Cedric being born in October of 1977) is stacked against a Sept. 1 cut-off, or a cycle that follows the calendar year. Rather than being Flinty, JKR taking the trouble to confirm Hermione's birth year at this time seems, as someone else pointed out, more like her going out of her way to have Krum being taught to pronounce 'Hermione' in GoF. >>> I agree that Hermione's birthday is now set in canon. I don't agree that evidence is "stacked against" a September 1st cut off. I would actually feel happier if the cut-off was placed around the Autumn Equinox, as it would explain why Hermione's late birthday wasn't an issue. But, I would still have to maintain that placing the cut-off here would have been an after-thought, to fit the facts that JKR had already provided us with. Ali From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 24 09:14:59 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 09:14:59 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: New OOP: prefix and spoiler policy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56021 Greetings from Hexquarters! As we all count down the days until the release of OoP, the Moderator Team has been huddled at Hexquarters, all of the entrances securely bolted and towels stuffed under the cracks beneath the doors. Nothing, we vowed, must disturb our careful deliberations and detailed preparations for This Blessed Event. Finally, the Mods have something to show for their hard work. We have decided how we will handle the issue of spoilers for the OoP release. Our view is that anyone who comes to a HP discussion group around the release of OoP really should expect to encounter spoilers. Lots and lots of spoilers. For that reason, we have decided *not* to require list members to use spoiler space at all. Instead, we are introducing a new prefix for subject headers, which will give members fair warning that the post contains OoP spoilers. Beginning today, we would like members to use the "OOP" prefix for any post to any of our lists that contains spoilers for OoP. For example, an appropriate subject header might be, "OOP: Harry, Sirius and Azkaban." Subject headers should not, of course, contain spoilers themselves -- "OOP: Sirius Dies At Azkaban!" rather defeats the point of the OoP prefix. Please begin using the new "OOP" prefix on all of our lists -- especially the main list and OT-Chatter -- beginning today. And remember, if you have any comments about any OoP release issues, holler at us at: hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com Counting down to June 21st The Administration Team From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Thu Apr 24 05:07:40 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (Monita) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 05:07:40 -0000 Subject: I love Theories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56022 Hey Tom, I agree that the correlation between transfiguration and animagi is smudged by the picture of Macgonagall as a Transfiguration teacher. True Animagus is a separate condition linked but not the same. My guess is that we will discover the link is strong between skillful transfigurers and animagi. But that is not canon yet.Its speculation, I know, and would most likely become justified canon if we were to discover that Dumbledore has an animagus form, being a former Transfiguration Teacher. Arrgh theres your limit of two animagii in future books. Do you really think the subject has been thrashed that much. Personally, I believe that we will need to see further animagus forms in the books. I doubt that they will be the pivotal twists that they have been in past books. I am sure it's necessary for character development to see another 1 or 2 though. and no I dont think Dumbledore will be among them. I have to put forward another Theory this one is getting boring. You probably wont like my Dumbledore one, it involves Time Turning. lol Have you considered the mysterious missing hours on the night when Voldemort was defeated by Baby Harry. I have more? I have more.......... TheValk speaks From ratchick22 at hotmail.com Thu Apr 24 05:39:22 2003 From: ratchick22 at hotmail.com (herm - own - ninny) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 05:39:22 +0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: [HPforGrownups] Oedipus Potter (tongue slightly in cheek but serious point) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56023 Jo said: >Harry is a James lookalike so if he pairs up with Ginny it will be a >physical re-creation of The Gryffindor Golden Couple ... Harry's parents. >... >But is it OK if Harry marries his Mum? What do other people think? > >Jo Me: While I do not believe that the psychological aspect of this will become an issue, the fact that Harry becoming romantically involved with a Lily look-a-like creates a second generation Lily and James is very interesting. Surely there would be reason behind it, if JKR chose to do this (and that's a big IF). It would create a parallel between the two generations, and must mean *something*. Unfortunately I am slightly brain dead at the moment and cannot think of any wildly interesting theories. Anyone else care to have a go at it? dina _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From sarohpenguin at hotmail.com Thu Apr 24 07:05:04 2003 From: sarohpenguin at hotmail.com (Sally) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 07:05:04 -0000 Subject: The timeline on the DVD *confirms* canon; In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56024 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "psychic_serpent" wrote: > Given that most Muggle-born families we hear of (Hermione's, Lily's, > Justin's, Colin's) are rather pleased to have a magical person in > the family, if it means that student foregoing a year of Muggle > school and starting Hogwarts instead, I hardly think they're going > to complain. There is always the possibility that Hermione skipped a grade or started early in Muggle school, which would mean she wouldn't have to miss any more than other Muggleborns. Somehow this seems very likely to me. ;) And hey. We're talking about a magic quill here. It probably knows when the kids are ready, much the way the sorting hat knows where to put them. Hmm... completely unrelated thought... maybe the quill was Rowena Ravenclaw's? ~Sally~ From ratchick22 at hotmail.com Thu Apr 24 07:15:37 2003 From: ratchick22 at hotmail.com (herm - own - ninny) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 07:15:37 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Redeemed!Draco and the Loss of a Bully Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56025 >From: Draco Demoiselle >Ron's declarations about Slytherins and certain >families (Malfoy) are just as insulting and prejudiced >as Draco's insinuations about Muggle-borns. Perhaps he >doesn't use a word as nasty as Mudblood. But that's >just because we don't know of any equally insulting. >I'm sure Ron would use it on Malfoy if it existed! Our >heros are not beyond reproach. Just had to say - excellent post. Draco really isn't *that* bad is he? This makes Redeemed!Draco slightly more plausible. But anyway, I won't go starting that discussion for the upteenth time . I was going to agree with you on the above statement, that Ron can be just as nasty as Malfoy, and yet he's one of the "good guys" and we see his friendly side much more often than his bad, so we tend to ignore the nastiness. For example, Draco often takes a lot of heat for his "I hope it's Granger" statement in Cos. Ron, in GoF, states that he'd like to see Malfoy fall off a cliff (and by implication die), and yet no one is waving Evil!Ron flags at this. However, while I agree that the "good guys" can be just as prejudiced and insulting as the bad, there is still a major difference. Ron's nasty remarks are almost always reactive, while Draco's are proactive. Ron does not actively seek Malfoy out in order to insult him, but Draco does this constantly, and is therefore much more at fault. dina _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From endangered at telstra.com Thu Apr 24 07:49:44 2003 From: endangered at telstra.com (endangered100) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 07:49:44 -0000 Subject: Early admission---a thought In-Reply-To: <000201c30a17$2dfd33c0$86570043@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56026 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eric Oppen" wrote: > If Hermione is as powerful as I think she is, I could easily see her > producing some things that were more spectacular than Harry's re- growing > hair or Incredible Shrinking Sweater. In cases like that, the usual rules > could be bent to get her into a safe environment and get her started on her > training ASAP, if only for the sake of safety. Once at Hogwarts, a place > designed specifically to deal with magical problems, unexpected magic would > be less terrifying for everybody involved, (the student herself not least!) > and could be much more easily repaired. A young witch or wizard only performs magic, when they are angry or very scared. Harry I think has had a much harder life than Hermione ever did. So I highly doubt she would have performed brilliant explosions etc. Training really only allows the learner to focus there powers where as before it was uncontrollable Endangered From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Apr 24 08:02:36 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 08:02:36 -0000 Subject: So much for spoilers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56027 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dicentra spectabilis" wrote: > I found this on Book Magazine online > (http://www.bookmagazine.com/archive/issue10/potter.shtml) > > It was written in May/June 2000, right before the release of GoF. At > the end of the article there are a bunch of "spoilers." Check these out: > > * Harry turns fourteen, and the Hogwarts pupils begin to notice the > opposite sex, as hormones kick in. J.K. Rowling wants it to be true to > life, so they all fall in love with the wrong people. Harry will not > date either Hermione or Ginny though. > > I guess this is true enough, but does this apply only to GoF or to the > whole series? Is this the demise of H/H and H/G? Not Hermione - she's a friend and tutor; nor Ginny - she's like a little sister to Harry! Cho is the one Harry has a crush on - but he and Ron went to the ball with the Patil-sisters... > > * The first truly evil female character makes her debut. > > Would this be Rita Skeeter? She's a pain in the anatomy, but "truly > evil"? I don't think so, unless we're going to find out more later. Well - it needs not be Rita Skeeter. It could be Mrs Lestrange in the Pensieve, it could one of the Veela's, could be Mrs Malfoy; could be one of the DEs Harry saw; > > * There will be a number of deaths, including that of one character > readers have grown to love. Rowling has said Voldemort will be shown > not as a mere pantomime villain, but as a truly evil entity. Only by > the killing of someone that readers care about, she says, does one get > a sense of how evil it is to extinguish a human life. > > Cedric Diggory was a decent enough fellow, but someone readers have > grown to love? Hardly. And "a number of deaths"? We had Cedric's > and Crouch Sr's. As far as Voldemort not being a mere pantomime > villian in GoF, the jury is still out on that. As have been mentioned, there was Frank Bryce, Bertha Jorkins and Crouch Jr. And of Voldemort... "Kill the spare" that's one thing, considering poor Cedric a "spare"; Not only that, he has his DEs suffer... > * Harry is in contact with Sirius Black. > > True. > > > * Another Weasley, Ron's cousin, appears. > > Not. The character was written out. Then again, two of Ron's brothers arrive - "cousin" was false, though. But of Ron's cousins, aunts, uncles - I do wonder where they _are_! > * We learn why Voldemort is who he is . . . > > Not really. We learn what happened to Voldemort post-Harry and how he > got back into his body. Well, there _was_ the thing about immortality - that he took steps to conquer death - explaining why he didn't _die_ there. CoS tells us a part of it; he does tell them about his becoming that immortal, evil spirit - Voldemort, not Tom Riddle... > So you see, whatever spoilers we've read so far about OoP might or > might not be true, or at least not true in the way we might imagine. Yes, well - they could tell the plot in extremely general terms, everyone would get an idea of how it'd be, all different and none the same as JKR's... That's the way these things are. About Hagrid - who would have believed that Hagrid invites Harry to watch, invisibly, when he has a date? -- Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Apr 24 08:29:57 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 08:29:57 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's clearance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56028 > bboy_mn: > As far as Hargid, I think it is generally accepted that he is innocent > of the injury and death of students during both openings of the > Chamber. The only thing that hasn't happened is an official hearing to > overturn his expulsion and clear any criminal record he may have. But > from a functional perspective, I think all people consider him > cleared, and he is able to function as if his name were cleared. I > still want to see the official hearing and I want it on record that he > is innocent, and of course, I want him to get a new wand. Do wizards even _keep_ a criminal record in the first place? Ollivander knows that Hagrid's wand was broken when he was expelled, and probably also _why_. Broken wand signifies this "questionable" status; Azkaban leaves a mark for a while, and if someone has spent his time there, it's over and done with... you just have _reputation_ that the likes of Rita Skeeter can spoil any time... Sure, Hagrid _could_ go right out and buy a wand. He might not consider that as important - he's done well so far. He could have bought one any summer after being cleared and not told Harry of it; maybe he'll buy one from abroad during his seek for giants? -- Finwitch From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Thu Apr 24 08:35:14 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (Monita) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 08:35:14 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: Ginny & the Platform Scene (with lit theory and post-canon SHIP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56029 Hey I thought I would add a post to this message. I am quite the keen analyst with the SHIP's situation. The thing i'd like to note is how Cho and Harry has been described as "tainted". Well of course in a way that is a possibility but note well.. We don't know the darndest thing about Cho. I have a suspicion that Cho and Harry go back a little further than we are led to believe. She is older than Harry and a complete stranger apparently yet in certain scenes in PoA and GoF she appers to display IMO anyway a certain sort of platonic affection for him. As though she is unaffected by his fame and comfortable in his presence. As though she knew him, personally, before she was introduced in the books. If such is the case then the tainting of Harry and Cho is quickly disspelled. As for Harry and Ginny. I am a strong vocal Ginny supporter. I am sure that Ginny and Harry are not destined in any way Although...... I am certain..... Ginny has yet to show her abilities as a witch hmm.......is a brave girl.............. IMO It would be a simple supposition we could adopt to say that Harry will have his head turned by Ginny in future books. Maybe even OoP. But Id say her coming of age will probably correlate with her sixteenth birthday and hence the seventh book. Heres to Ginny the Knockout! TheValk speaks From abigailnus at yahoo.com Thu Apr 24 10:48:12 2003 From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 10:48:12 -0000 Subject: Money issues that have puzzled me. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56030 Darrin wrote: > > Are there Wizard contractors to build houses, or are those done > > through magic? How about plumbers to fix problems with those magical > > faucets Molly uses? How about problems with those Ministry cars or > > vehicles such as the Knight Bus. > > > > And then Steve said: > > Yes, yes, and yes. I think there are all those things in the wizard > would, they just go about it different. Just like most of us use Home > Depot or Menards are a resource to fix up our homes, I suspect the are > wizard construction books full of construction spells. And just like > us muggles, if the project gets to big, or you have no talent for > construction and repair, you call in the professionals. > > I can't see any reason why these things wouldn't exist, but of course, > so far we haven't seen anything in the books that would confirm it. > However, since there are obviously manufacturing companies like broom > makers, cauldron makers, ink and quill makers, furniture makers, > etc...., one would assume that other material things like houses would > also have to be 'made'. Two thoughts about the care and maintenance of houses in the wizarding world. First, apparently it isn't at all uncommon for wizard families to have magical caretakers such as house-elves. We know that house-elves come with old houses, and therefore old families, and it is precisely these houses that need to be taken care of the most. Second, since most wizarding objects are produced by wizards, it only stands to reason that they have maintenance spells. If my dishwasher breaks down, I need to call a technician, but a magical dishwasher (of the non-theoretical variety) might be able to repair itself or never break down. By the same token, wizard houses could have caretaking spells built in. Abigail From devika at sas.upenn.edu Thu Apr 24 11:10:54 2003 From: devika at sas.upenn.edu (Devika) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:10:54 -0000 Subject: Money issues that have puzzled me. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56031 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > Well, Harry never seems to get a haircut and if he does, the next day > his hair looks the same again. We haven't seen any place at Hogwarts > for boys to get haircuts either. Once the boys learn magic, I suspect > shaving is optional. That is, you only grow whiskers if you choose to > do so, otherwise, your face stays clean. > In GoF, Ch. 27, Padfoot Returns, Sirius is described as having an "unshaven" face. This would seem to imply that his facial hair grows whether he wants it to or not. I'm pretty sure when he first escapes from Azkaban, no mention is made of any facial hair, but that doesn't mean it isn't there, especially in light of the description in GoF. Of course, it's always possible that Sirius is trying to grow a beard for purposes of disguise or something, but that's not the impression that I got when I read it. I think that unless JKR views Harry's shaving to be important to the plot, or at least to character development, it will go the way of Harry's Christmas and birthday presents to Ron and Hermione. In other words, it won't be mentioned and we'll just have to assume it's there. Devika :) From bard7696 at aol.com Thu Apr 24 11:23:20 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:23:20 -0000 Subject: Contacting parents, Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56032 Linda wrote: True, no where in cannon is there > any evidence that Dumbledore ever discussed the situation with > Arthur or Molly Weasley, however, there is no evidence in cannon > that he did not do so either. The way the events at the end of POA > happened, there was no opportunity for him to speak to them before > JKR brought the book to it's end. There is no mention of it (from > this angle at least) in GOF. Any thoughts? > > Linda > ( who is so glad to find a board like this as her husband > thinks she is nuts) Me: Molly's reaction to Sirius Black when he changes back to human form in the hospital wing near the end of GoF indicates she has no idea that Sirius is not a murderer. Since the murder he was imprisoned for was the murder of Peter Pettigrew (and 12 Muggles), it then stands to reason she doesn't know Pettigrew is alive and therefore stands to further reason that she doesn't know Pettigrew was Scabbers. Darrin -- Welcome to the board, Linda. :) From Kira1119 at Hotmail.com Thu Apr 24 11:04:07 2003 From: Kira1119 at Hotmail.com (Kira November) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 06:04:07 -0500 Subject: Some FF: Dumbledore and Scabbers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56033 >--- Susanne wrote: > > > Maybe he's just really sure Pettigrew didn't ever > > attempt to > > change back to human form during his time at the > > Weasleys or > > at Hogwarts, for some reason? > ---- heidi wrote: >I can't see how sure of that he can be, given that >there is some canon support for the argument that >Pettigrew not only turned back into a wizard on >occasion, he also spoke (i.e. possibly said spells, >etc). >That canon support is in PoA, when he's changed back >into a wizard and his voice is not unused-sounding, >but high and squeaky and not particularly unusual in >its speech patterns and pauses, like Harry notes >Sirius' is. ------"kiricat2001" wrote: >I think you're on thin ice here. The assumption seems to be that everyone's >voice will sound the same after a long time of unuse. Why couldn't >someone's voice sound high and squeaky after not being used for a long >time? And, I don't know that comparing Peter (12 years as a rat) with >Sirius (12 years undergoing daily mental torture) is a good comparison. We also need to consider how much of that time Sirius spent screaming, or yelling, or howling, or doing anything else that might have damaged his vocal cords. Peter had a much easier 12 years than Sirius did. Mentally, while Sirius is probably not insane, he's not in real good shape either; normal conversation for him at that point is going to be difficult. PTSD doesn't begin to cover it. Kira November _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From alison.williams at virgin.net Thu Apr 24 11:15:47 2003 From: alison.williams at virgin.net (Alison Williams) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:15:47 +0100 Subject: The Spiritual Symbolism of HP (was: The Philosopher's Stone) In-Reply-To: <1051044716.6494.39040.m7@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000001c30a52$dc9eda60$12080150@chris> No: HPFGUIDX 56034 Gwendolyn Grace wrote - > 1. Yes, there's a great deal of symbolism in the books, but where I > object to the redominantly) Christian readings of the books is that > most of those symbols are *much* older than Christianity, and at *no* > time have those symbols been exclusively Christian. me - Thanks for the response and I'm sorry its taken me a while to get back to this. Not enough hours in the day... I take your point about the history of the symbols, and there is such a huge amount of imagery in the books that could be taken symbolically its not difficult to selectively pick out those which tend to confirm your own particular preferred viewpoint. I don't think it works to read the books as a simplistic kind of Christian allegory. For example, while Dumbledore can be taken as symbolic of God in the ending of CoS, if you then try to carry this over into the books in general it won't work as he is clearly neither all-knowing nor immortal. I found Hans explanation of the way he sees the symbolic aspects fascinating and, in my view, his interpretation does not try to force the books into being a simplistic or purely Christian story but draws out those elements while allowing other readings as equally valid. I do think we need to keep open minds about this as it is such a complex area. Gwendolyn Grace - > Off-topic digression: You know that Granger is presenting at Nimbus - 2003, right? He's a featured speaker and will be signing his book. me - Brief response to off-topic digression. I know. I'm in the UK and not quite obsessed enough (debatable!) or rich enough (definitely not) to allow a trip over. I hope that papers etc will be available online after the event. Gwendolyn Grace - > While we can debate whether fantasy has its roots in Christianity, particularly given the influence in the 20th century of JRR Tolkien, I say that those roots go much, much deeper than just a retelling of the Bible. The oldest known work of literature, The Epic of Gilgamesh, is at heart a tale of death and rebirth. Campbell relies heavily on the archetypes it establishes for his "Hero's Journey." me - As I understand it this fits in with the Inklings (J.R.R.Tolkien, C.S.Lewis etc) view of such stories as 'true myth' and an indication that this basic story is somehow built into the human consciousness and always has been. This would account for why such stories have such a powerful hold on the imagination and have a popular appeal that purely literary critics can't account for. Gwendolyn Grace - > Greek myths. Gilgamesh. The Odyssey. Metamorphoses. The Egyptian > pantheon and myths associated with them: Osiris, Anubis, Isis, Ra, > etc. The Mabinogion. The legend of Herne the Hunter. Arthurian legend. > These works have the same themes and stories as the roots of HP > interwoven through them - and they're no less effective. Rowling draws > on them as much as she does upon Mediaeval legend, Shakespeare, Scott, > Shelley, Dickens, and a host of other cultural and literary resources > and references. She deliberately plays on what we *know* - and what we > *think* we know. me - I am very glad to discover that some other people do recognise this level of allusion and complexity in the books. I have lost count of the number of times I have been told to stop taking a simple kids book so seriously! Because it works as an excellent and entertaining story with a great deal of humour it is often seen only on that level. The other thing that tends to happen is that people spot one allusion and leap on it as an example of plagiarism. Its good to find a place where this can be discussed. Gwendolyn Grace - > But that doesn't necessarily mean she's writing a Christian parable, > just because many of the symbols that are instantly recognizable in > fantasy have also been co-opted by Christianity after all, they have > as much right to symbols as the rest of the world). She's telling a > story, and that story is set in a genre with conventions, and she's > using those conventions to great effect. me - I agree that it doesn't mean that she's writing a Christian parable. I don't think she's doing anything that simple! Although I don't make any claim to know exactly what she is doing. However I do think its worth bearing in mind that she is a Christian and has said (in the interview on the CoS DVD) that what she writes comes from her 'views and feelings' although it does not have an explicit 'message'to convey. Thats a paraphrase as I don't have the transcript to hand. Gwendolyn Grace - > Like you say, it's one way to look at it. I happen to reject it, but > you can see it that way if you want to do. I think, like statistics, > symbology is a very woolly science, though - you can make the symbols > say nearly anything you want them to do. Trelawney provides evidence > enough of that. me - I agree that various interpretations are possible and I also feel that trying to tie the story down to any *one* interpretation diminishes it. I am certainly making no claims to know what JKR intends or where the story is going. What I do object to is when people deny that there is any deeper meaning or spiritual/religious element to be found in the books. It seems to me to be quite obvious that there is. I am quite happy to discuss exactly what that meaning might be! Thanks very much for all the very interesting discussions, I'm trying to keep up with it all! Alison From drmm at fuuko.com Thu Apr 24 12:59:08 2003 From: drmm at fuuko.com (drmm_fuuko) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:59:08 -0000 Subject: Hermione, the Not All Powerful (was: Re: Re Power of Magic) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56035 Well, after a two year absence (which means that perhaps 1 or 2 of you remember me) I've decided to rejoin this list ... I'm really looking forward to OOtP, although since I'm in Japan, I'll probably have to wait two or three weeks to get it (wahhhh!). --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall" wrote: <<> One instance (which might not be all that fair to her) in which > Hermione wasn't able to use a spell properly comes in PoA, Ch.20, > 383, when she couldn't use the Patronus Charm to help Harry. Granted, > Hermione hadn't practiced the spell, so I'll give her the benefit of > the doubt here. But still, she couldn't do it.>> > Again, I'll refer to the Patronus Charm here. Harry is repeatedly > foiled by the difficulty of the Charm, and he knew the words `expecto > patronum' before his first attempt. What Harry seems to get are > moments where he is `in-the-zone' and able to use magic that's beyond > his normal level ? at other times, he's stumped by the simplest > spells, like the Summoning Charm.>> In my opinion, the Harry's ability to summon the Patronus Charm has more to do with confidence than anything else. After the charm he tells Hermione: "'I knew I could do it this time,' said Harry, 'because I'd already done it ... Does that make sense?'" Harry believed he could do it, so he could. Now, Hermione is a different story. Hermione couldn't perform the Patronus Charm. Why not? Is it because she's less powerful than Harry? Perhaps, but it's shown in-canon that she is able to do magic above her grade level. She made the Polyjuice Potion in her second year; she knows a lot of spells that her classmates don't know. I see Hermione's inability to do the Patronus Charm as a symbol of her lack of confidence. She knows that the Patronus is advanced magic. She knows she's never practiced it before. Therefore, she doesn't think she's able to do it -- and she isn't. I've always felt that Hermione's desire to shine and her constant studying is her way of dealing with low self-confidence. She's in a new, magical environment. She knows that a lot of people will judge her because her parents are Muggles. What can she do to show people she's not weak? She can work hard and she DOES work hard. Tom said: > Hermione is different ? she studies chronically. And in her case, > studying pays off, because I believe she's naturally gifted. In > PS/SS, Hermione is the only one to get the levitation charm to work > without massive difficulty. We see it again in GoF, when McGonagall > says: "Miss Granger remains the only person in this class who has > managed to turn a pincushion into a satisfactory hedgehog." (GoF, > Ch.15, 233) > > And now, take your suggestion and apply it to the other cases we've > seen. If Hermione's the only one who can transfigure a proper > pincushion by the beginning of her fourth year, it's not because she > knows any more than anyone else - presumably, McGonagall is teaching > them all the same way.>> In my opinion, the reason why Hermione is the only student able to turn a pincusion into a hedgehog is because she practiced it beforehand (or something similar). We know that Hermione works hard. While I don't doubt that she's a strong witch, I think her hard work is what seperates her academically from her classmates. I've never thought that Hermione was naturally more talented than most of her classmates (read: Ron) the way some people propose (*cough* some H/Hr fans *cough*). I can honestly see Hermione practicing every single spell from her textbooks for HOURS the night before class. Therefore, she's able to shine in class. However, when she's faced with a spell that she's never been able to practice (e.g. Patronus), she fails. As Hermione grows more confident with her role in the wizarding world, I have no doubt that she'll relax a bit more (a bit) and study a little less (a little). DrMM (the person responsible for the Harry Potter Obsession Quiz: http://www.fuuko.com/hpquiz.html that really needs to be updated) From melclaros at yahoo.com Thu Apr 24 14:29:56 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 14:29:56 -0000 Subject: HP and Les Miserables In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56036 > Richasi ponders: > > > I have one question though, and it is Off-Topic somewhat. > > Who in the HP universe is Javert? ;) --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Suzanne Chiles wrote: > Well, I think Snape is quite Javert-ish when it comes to Harry. ;-) > and me: I've heard this a lot, and up to a point it's true, but *only* up to a point. I recently saw the movie and was astounded at the similarity between the shrieking shack scene in PoA and the scene in which Javert tries to arrest Valjean at Cosette's mother's deathbed. I mean, it was practically line-for-line Snape/Black confrontation stuff even ending with Javert unconsious on the floor after being head-banged against the wall. After that, however, I really think the Snape/Javert comparison ends. At least I hope it does before Severus hurls himself off a bridge! Mel From rane_ab at hotmail.com Thu Apr 24 12:08:00 2003 From: rane_ab at hotmail.com (rane_ab) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:08:00 -0000 Subject: Thoughts and questions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56037 I'm new here, so hiya everybody! *waves enthusiastically* I just have some thoughts and ideas I'd like to write down. I'm sure most of these (if not all) have already been discussed at some point, so I'm sorry if I'm falling into repetition here. *ducks her head and shouts: please don't shoot me!* But... I've merely tried to get through all the msgs from *April* and I still had to give up because there were simply too many! So if any of you might by change remember corresponding threads, I would be grateful. So, for my thoughts and Qs: I'm very sure this has been suggested more than once (though I've never actually seen a *discussion* as such on it, just the question): Snape being a vampire. Now, everything in me shouts: no! It doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Despite the fact that he is sallow and the mock-suggestion that Snape turned into a bat in GoF that some take as an indication - it simply *doesn't make sense*. First of all, he would not be able to teach during the day (aren't vampires supposed to be asleep during the day?). Second, I cannot imagine Dumbledore letting a vampire into the school; well, at least not as a teacher. I know he let Lupin in, but *he* merely turns into a werewolf once (or three times, people seem to disagree on that) a month. Snape would be a vampire *all the time*. Near children. In the classroom. Unless of course there's a potion to counteract vampirism, too. But the thing that convinces me most, is actually the least logical one: it would simply be too much for Snape. He's a nasty git, a former Death Eater, ugly *and* a vampire? If he turns out to be a vampire anyway, I swear I'm going to roll over *laughing*, because it just won't be credible anymore. There's only so many bad things one person can be. So. For my question. (Yes, there is actually a question. :-)) What I don't understand is the scene in PoA when Snape catches Harry coming back from Hogsmeade and gets his hands on the Marauder's Map. Just before sweeping Harry and Ron out of the room, Lupin says: "I'd like to have a word about my vampire essay." Or sth like that; don't have the book with me at the moment. If my memory serves me right, this particular scene takes place not long after Snape assigned the werewolf essay to the students while replacing Lupin. Werewolves. Which were right at the end of the DADA book the students use. If werewolves are at the end, then surely so are vampires. So it makes little sense for Lupin to be teaching this. Also, in GoF, when Moody recapitulates what they have learnt the previous year, he doesn't mention vampires (despite mentioning werewolves - and that considering that Hermione was in the end the only one to have written the essay). It also strikes me that Lupin *did* get the kids out of the room with that simple remark. Snape had just caught Harry out doing sth he shouldn't have. Of course he couldn't prove it irrefutably, but there were so many things pointing to Harry having been in Hogsmeade (the candy, the dirt, but, most of all, Malfoy's having seen him), that not even DD could have ignored sth was going on. And somehow, I do think McGonagall would have believed that Harry went to Hogsmeade, and punished him for it. And then he had the map (though not knowing it *was* exactly that), which carries Lupin's name (Mr. Moony). It took a while to convince myself, but yes, now I do believe Snape actually knew MWPP's nicknames. His suggestion that Harry had got it from the manufacturers, Sirius' insistence that "the three" call him "Snuffles" when they speak of him (and not Padfoot - I assume that name was too well-known), and the fact that Snape followed the foursome around all the time when they were at school. So there Snape had the two people at Hogwarts he no doubt hated most involved in sth illegal (or at least no permitted). And he let them walk out. I'm not saying he could actually have proven they were both up to no good (though obviously, Lupin was avoiding the question about "the manufactures"), but there were so many things pointing to it - I just can't believe Snape gave up that easily. That's just so OOC for him. So then, my logical conclusion would be that Lupin said that thing about the vampire essay to get back at Snape for the werewolf one, and to shock him enough to manage to get the heel out of his office (note that Harry doesn't dare to look at Snape when he leaves - convenient, isn't it?) But then, that *wouldn't* be logical after all. Why would Snape risk setting a werewolf essay *and* (much worse) actually revealing Lupin was a werewolf if Lupin had sth similar on him? You could argue that Snape knew DD wouldn't allow Lupin to reveal such a thing about Snape, and that Lupin is much too good a person to say such a thing. But whether this is correct or not, fact of the matter is: Snape doesn't trust Lupin. Not one little bit. So he *would* expect Lupin to reciprocate the revelation, wouldn't he? Then again, there is the possibility that Lupin just said the first thing to come to mind. But that's pretty weird - not to mention pretty stupid. Why not say he wanted a word on an essay about sth they *were* actually studying (even if the essay was non-existant). Surely Snape must have known they weren't likely to be studying vampires - the students had told him themselves the were still studying "minor" creatures. Which makes it weird once again that Snape let Lupin get away with it. *sigh* This is all very confusing. I'm sure the subject (of Lupin's odd remark) has been raised before - and I'm very curious to what answer it was given, if any at all. I wanted to mention that LV obviously *knows* that Snape was a spy (referring to LV's speach in Harry's presence about the people missing. He couldn't have been speaking about anybody else than Snape when he says sth like: and one, I believe, who has left me forever - or some such). But sb beat me to it, though I don't recall who it was, so I'm wondering why everybody keeps wondering if Snape's trial was public. Also, LV knows that Snape tried to stop Quirrel from getting the Philosopher's stone. If Snape was so faithful to LV, then why didn't Quirrel simply tell Snape what he was after, and they'd have gone looking for the damned thing together. After all, LV did "possess" Quirrel, and would have recognised Snape. So LV must at least have suspected him - or have found out Snape wasn't trustworthy (from LV's POV) when he didn't help in the search for the stone. As for Lucius Malfoy's attitude towards Snape and vice versa - well, it seems everybody assumes Snape knew LM was a DE. When Harry says LM's name at the end of GoF, enumerating all the DE that were at the gathering he (unwillingly) attended, Snape makes a "sudden movement". When I first read it, I assumed he was shocked that LM had been revealed as a DE to the others. Or perhaps just shocked that LM had returned to the Dark Lord after all (perhaps Snape thought he had cut all bonds?). But later, I started wondering if maybe Snape simply didn't *know* Malfoy was a DE. After all, it is insisted earlier in the book that LV was the only one who knew all the DEs, and the DEs themselves didn't know who many of the others were. Continuing on that line of thought, why didn't Snape say Malfoy was a DE at the time that LV was first defeated? Karkaroff was only too willing to bring forth names. Of course, Karkaroff needed to reveal names of others to keep himself out of Azkaban; Snape didn't, DD vouched for him. But assuming Snape *is* one of the good guys, well, it would make sense for him to testify against Malfoy. Perhaps he was afraid of getting killed by resenting DEs, but, well, he should be scared of that just plain being a spy, shouldn't he? It's not like testifying against LM would have got him in any more danger. This argument of course only goes if Snape's being a spy was indeed public knowledge. But like some others, I cannot imagine the 200 spectators at Karkaroff's (and perhaps Snape's) trial to keep that to themselves. And probably there were journalists all over the place - everybody was so happy LV was defeated, and feeling so resentful for what he and his DE's had done, they'd probably want to know all about the DEs being punished. Which would also mean Malfoy knew Snape was a spy. But, unlike Crouch Jr., he's not so veru faitful to the Dark Lord, is he? He himself claims never having been a DE. I think LM doesn't much care about LV - he just wants ot be on the winning side of the battle, and if he has a chance, enjoy some of Voldemort's power. I think he's a selfish bastard - and well, little did he know the Dark Lord would rise again (though he did try to accomplish that himself, but only after *eleven* years). I don't think he particularly cared that Snape turned out to be a spy - it wasn't his problem, Snape didn't tell on him, perhaps didn't know anything about him. For as far as he's concerned LV's dead (though he did try to rescucitate him through the diary), life goes on, and he uses people for his own purposes. Wouldn't do to anger his son's Head of House, would it? And he could throw Snape aside anytime the Dark Lord decided to come back. We don't know much about the relationship between Snape and Malfoy. I don't think they see much of each other - after all, Malfoy's hardly ever at the school (especially since he was thrown off the board). It might very well be that their relationship is no more than the of a father and his son's head of house. As for Snape actually *being* on the good side, I agree with the majority who think he is. And I think we assume that out of instinct. Besides the fact that he tried to stop Quirrel and saved Harry's life - it's simply the way JK uses him. Harry suspects time after time after time that he's the bad guy in some way. Most notoriously in the first and the fourth book. And in the third book, he actually prooves being a vicious and vindictive person when he wants to hand over not only Black whom he assumes to be criminal, but also Lupin to the dementors, without even listening - knowing very well both Lupin and Black would turn out worse than dead. And at the end of the fourth book, Harry obviously still doesn't trust him. He's being played out as potential evil person so often, it would be weird if he turned out to be exactly that in the end. Of course JK could be double-crossing us - making us think that since he's being painted as a bad guy so often, he couldn't possibly really be (knowing JK's knack for letting people turn out quite differently from what we might expect); and then letting him be after all. But I just can't imagine that. Just feels wrong. Especially as JK herself admits she loves to write about him because he's just so evil. (well, I've read that somewhere, anyway) Not the kind of remark to make about sb you want to really turn evil, if you want to surprise your public. I do think Snape's evil, though. Well, *mean*, not evil as in LV- evil. It's not just that he did want to hand Black and Lupin to the dementors (hell, I can understand him to some level - after all, he believes they tried to kill *him*), or the remark he makes about Hermione's teeth (he might have gotten laughed at himself when he was a kid, and well, putting other people down does make oneself feel better, doesn't it?). It's not even that he threatened to feed Harry the Veritaserum. What bothers me most about him is that, when Harry had found Crouch in the Forbidden Forest in GoF and was running to Dumbledore, Snape wouldn't let Harry into DD's office. Of course, he didn't know what was going on, but he could see Harry was panicking. Now, I don't know about you guys, but even if I would hate sb, even really badly - if I saw them panicking, I would still listen. Panic is just such a *vulnerable* state - I would still think sth bad must be going on for the other person to look like that. And it's not like you can *fake* panic, is it? I thought his dismissal of Harry at that moment was, in a way, the cruellest thing he did. Well, that's just my opinion. But it's also exactly why I can't believe Snape is still a DE. But then, that leads to the question: what *did* DD ask Snape to do? Also, I read sb's comment that if sth would happen to McGonagall *and* DD, Snape would be in charge. I have no idea where that came from. There's no reason Snape should be more in charge than Sprout or Flitwick. If anything, leaving a Slytherin in charge of the school (or at least Snape in particular) would be a disaster. His blatant favouring of his own House would make such a task impossible. Though I must admit to being intrigued by the fact Snape *does* always seem to show up when sth important happens. Why DD would show up is obvious, as he's the headmaster, and MG is deputy headmistress. But what's with Snape, indeed? I wonder if it's just because he's an important character (which may very well be) or if it's sth else. Might also be that, next to McGonagall, he's the Head of House that keeps his head the "coolest" in front of danger. Or maybe there is another reason. I also wonder how you become a Head of House. Stupid question, maybe, but I do wonder why Snape is. (HoH, that is.) I also wonder whether he was teaching at Hogwarts before LV got vanquished the first time. Or if he only became a teacher afterwards. Well, that might lead to a number of speculations (as to his position as potential double-spy in the past + was he a real DE while teaching? + if he only became a teacher after becoming a spy, that would look a bit suspicious, wouldn't it? Though I suppose that too would be arguable). Speaking of spies, why did Sirius think Remus was the spy when LV was threatening James' life? Well, I'm supposing this has been discussed extensively already. Just wondering. I would also like to react to the question as to why Sirius was the (presumed) Potters' secret-keeper rather than DD. Perhaps the answer is as simple as: friendship. Even if James respected DD a lot, it still makes more sense to chose your closest friend, doesn't it? Well, that was all I wanted to say for now. *All*. Ahum. Yes, this turned out a bit longer than I intended. I wonder if there's still anybody with me? ;-) *pokes the person in front of the screen to wake him/her up* Right, sorry for the long read... Cheerful greetings, Rane. From yutu at wanadoo.es Thu Apr 24 13:07:56 2003 From: yutu at wanadoo.es (izaskun granda) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 15:07:56 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: James was a Gryffindor Chaser (WAS: Muggle-borns in the future) References: Message-ID: <000801c30a62$86eae680$1c16253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 56038 Darrin wrote: And again, if James was in Gryffindor, I find it hard to believe the other three Mauraders were in other houses. Simply finding the time to learn Animagus spells would seem to necessitate having the same common room, dormitory, etc. Me: JK said in one of her interviews that the marauders were, all of them, in Gryffindor. I'll look for the exact quote. Izaskun Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dragonquillca at yahoo.com Thu Apr 24 14:12:32 2003 From: dragonquillca at yahoo.com (Carolyn) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 14:12:32 -0000 Subject: Harry, Errol and Mrs. Norris Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56039 I've joined recently and been following all the wonderful discussions with interest. I've been wondering why Harry didn't get Ron a new wand in CoS. I suppose one argument could be to spare Ron and his family embarrassment. I liked the suggestion that someone made of Hermione and Harry pitching in to get the Weasley's a new owl. But my biggest burning question is this... What's up with Mrs. Norris? I've already searched the message archives and found no answers. I was just thinking that perhaps someone had a new take on it. Carolyn From JessaDrow at aol.com Thu Apr 24 15:13:34 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:13:34 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry, Errol and Mrs. Norris Message-ID: <164.1f564417.2bd9591e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56040 In a message dated 4/24/03 10:58:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dragonquillca at yahoo.com writes: > Ron a new wand in CoS. I suppose one argument could be to spare Ron > and his family embarrassment. I liked the suggestion that someone > made of Hermione and Harry pitching in to get the Weasley's a new > owl. But my biggest burning question is this... What's up with Mrs. > Norris? I've already searched the message archives and found no > answers. I was just thinking that perhaps someone had a new take on > it. > As we see strong indications of in GoF Ron is very proud. I doubt he would have taken the offer from Harry. He rather would have been highly insulted. I think also Ron felt it was a justified punishment after the car incident. ~Faith~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 24 15:55:00 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 15:55:00 -0000 Subject: Harry, Errol and Mrs. Norris In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56041 Carolyn wrote: > But my biggest burning question is this... What's up with Mrs. > Norris? Now me: Here's what I think - virtually every time Mrs. Norris is mentioned, her "lamp-like eyes" are also mentioned. In Elizabeth Goudge's The Little White Horse, which JKR said was one of her favorite books as a child, a "dog" turns out to be a lion. Before we learn that the dog is a lion, the dog is described as having "lamp-like eyes." We know that wizards can turn into animals, but could it be possible that animals can turn into other forms of animals in the wizarding world? Could Mrs. Norris really be a lion in disguise? If so, could she have some sort of relationship to Gryffindor, since the symbol of Gryffindor House is the lion? If so, this could explain why she was the first target of the Basilisk's attack (perhaps it's misdirection that we're led to believe it's because she's the cat of a squib)? Carolyn again: > I've been wondering why Harry didn't get Ron a new wand in CoS. Me again: IIRC, the only place we've heard of that has shops where a wizard can purchase a wand is Diagon Alley. And Harry can't get to Diagon Alley once he's at Hogwarts. Even if there are shops in Hogsmeade that sell wands, Harry and Ron can't go there as second-years. So I don't think it was logistically feasible for Harry to get Ron a new wand. ~Phyllis From cindysphynx at comcast.net Thu Apr 24 15:59:01 2003 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 15:59:01 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Avery/Rita. No, not like that. Please. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56042 "Come on, you know I'm good for it, George." "I know no such thing," George said icily, not looking up from the glass he was polishing. "Just put it on my tab," Cindy pleaded. "As soon as the Hurricane arrives, I'll be collecting on all these *bets* I've made." She began ticking them off on her fingers. "Let's see. . . . Hermione will die. Bagman is ESE. Real Moody is ESE and working for Rookwood. Harry will go to St. Mungo's. George, I'm gonna be *rich!*" "And I'll *sell* you a Black Russian when you can pay for it," George retorted. "How would that be?" Cindy leaned forward on her stool, resting her elbows on the polished bar. The top button of her uniform popped open, and she gazed up at George, fluttering her eyelashes. "Well, maybe there's something else I can do for you as a form of payment?" George paused, then staggered backward, one hand over his chest as though suddenly stricken. He recovered quickly, grabbed bottles of Vodka and Kaluha and shoved them roughly in Cindy's direction. "For the love of all that is good and holy, don't *DO* that!*" he shrieked. "You're gonna make me sick again. Look, just take the bottles and fix your own drink. Make as many as you want. Just . . . . just *leave me alone*!" "Thanks, George!" Cindy said brightly. "I won't be needing *this.*" She pushed the Kaluha bottle back toward George, hoisted the Vodka bottle to her lips and took a deep swig. "Aaaaahhhhhh," she sighed, wiping the back of her sleeve across her mouth. Kirstini and Derannimer sat speechless on their bar stools, their drinks motionless in their frozen hands. They glanced briefly at each other for strength. "What are *you* two looking at?" "Sorry. Sorry. I just wanted to say something about Rita Skeeter," Kirstini mumbled through her fingers. "I was outside, trying to pluck up the courage to come in, and I couldn't help but overhear what Derannimer here said just then -? I wasn't eavesdropping or anything um. Anyway. Rita Skeeter. All I wanted to say was that the idea of her suddenly turning embedded reporter for Dumbledore seems a little ?- out of character." "Rita Skeeter, huh," Cindy said, grinning widely. "Oh, I just love to talk about her." She edged toward Kirstini, who scooted her stool back a few inches, hardly enough to notice. "See, Rita Skeeter is something special in canon. You know what she is, don't you?" Cindy asked quietly. "A snake in the grass?" asked Derannimer. "The root of all evil?" added George. "The spawn of Satan?" said Kirstini. "I'm surprised at you people!" Cindy said in exasperation, closing her eyes briefly. "Rita Skeeter isn't a snake in the grass or any of that. Or more precisely, she's not *just* a snake in the grass. She's something much *better.*" Cindy paused for dramatic effect, but this seemed to have the effect only of boring everyone. She slammed her fist down onto the bar. "Rita Skeeter is a First Rate *Banger,* that's what she is!" Cindy cried. "Everything about the woman Bangs!" "Point of order, Captain," Deranimmer challenged. "Big Bang is a theory that encapsulates JKR's approach to storytelling. You said it yourself: 'The Big Bang theory is an all-encompassing approach to canon theorizing based on the notion that . . ." ". . . . JKR herself prefers to use highly dramatic, cinematic, or even melodramatic events to serve as catalytic turning points in her characters' lives,'" Cindy finished irritably. "I know, I know." "So how can Rita Skeeter possibly be a Banger her own self, then?" Kirstina asked with interest. "Well," Cindy began, "when given a choice, Rita does tend to go for the drama in a story, doesn't she? Look at what she writes about Harry. 'An ugly scar, souvenir of a tragic past, disfigures the otherwise charming face of Harry Potter.' I *like* that in a reporter. That's the most dramatic description of Harry's scar in all of canon, and it goes to Rita. "Also, look at her personality. She's opinionated and pushy. She's tireless, aggressive and steamrolls people. She says just what she thinks. She's probably *difficult* -- even *impossible* to work with." Cindy's voice rose, her nostrils flaring, her eyes flashing. "Maybe she's even a little *disturbed!* Huh? *HUH!?* She's vindictive, a *threat,* isn't she!?" Patrons at other tables stopped their conversation and craned their necks toward the bar. "She must be *NEUTRALIZED* at all costs, *CAPTURED,* put in a little glass jar, **BLACKMAILED**! And then -- " "You . . . you're *scaring* me, Captain," Kirstini stammered. Cindy paused for a long moment, collecting herself and adjusting her uniform. She took a deep cleansing breath, her toothy smile suddenly tight. "No reason to be scared, sailor," she replied easily. "Some people are just like that. It may be hard to believe, but I myself have been known to exhibit some of those very traits. Just now and then. Maybe my appreciation for Rita Skeeter is just a form of Affective Fallacy or something. I dunno. I'll have to ask Elkins. Or more accurately, *one* of the Elkinses." "Uh," Derannimer began, "are you *going* somewhere with this, Captain?" "Oh, I'm *always* going somewhere, sailor," Cindy said, exchanging the bottle of Vodka for the bottle of Kaluha. "We've never considered the relationship between Rita Skeeter and Hermione, or at least, not lately. Is there anyone who thinks Rita Skeeter will suffer the indignity of being trapped in a jar by a kid, kidnapped to London and blackmailed into not practicing her trade yet do *nothing* to retaliate?" Cindy paused. Only the crackling of the fireplace could be heard. "Oh, no. People like Rita *always* retaliate. Rita Skeeter will fight back. She will get even with Hermione for what she did. Rita isn't scared of Hermione, and Rita can simply deny that she is an Animagus. After all, who would take the word of an underage wizard on whether Rita is or is not an unregistered Animagus? Oh, there's a lot of animosity between Hermione and Rita, and I'm thinking Hermione had better watch her back. Rita sure will be. "That's right. Hermione will die in OoP when Rita settles an old score. And *I* will collect on my Hermione bet and be able to bankroll my bar tab until Book 6." "OK, now I think *I'm" going to be sick," Kirstini said. "I knew I never should have come in this place after all I heard about what goes on here." "Now, now," Cindy said, clapping Kirstini vigorously on the back. "It's not that bad. Not every theory in the Royal George includes the death of a beloved character." Avery nodded enthusiastically from his perch near the fireplace. "Let's do this. Why don't you tell us your 'anti-Florence' theory?" Cindy tossed her scarlet FEATHERBOA over her shoulder, where it swayed slightly as she spoke. "Especially if 'anti' is a euphemism for Florence's violent and gory death-by-ambush in OoP," she smirked. *************** Cindy From hp_lexicon at yahoo.com Thu Apr 24 16:38:34 2003 From: hp_lexicon at yahoo.com (hp_lexicon) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:38:34 -0000 Subject: James was a Gryffindor Chaser (WAS: Muggle-borns in the future) In-Reply-To: <000801c30a62$86eae680$1c16253e@takun> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56043 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "izaskun granda" wrote:> Me: > JK said in one of her interviews that the marauders were, all of them, in Gryffindor. I'll look for the exact quote. I'd very much like to see that quote. I am pretty much up on all the interviews and I've never seen it. If you can find a quote by Rowling that says this, please please please share it!!! In lieu of that quote, I have to say that I agree from plenty of other hints that it is unlikely that any of the FOJ (Friends of James) were in any other house than Gryffindor. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Thu Apr 24 17:06:10 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:06:10 -0000 Subject: SHIPping Attitudes // Hermione's Age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56044 > Petra Pan > > Well, at least one shipper somewhere > > (can't for the life of me remember > > exactly where in Potterdom) argued > > that if Hermione is older than Harry > > (or did she say Ron?) then they can't > > become a couple...'cause that'd be too > > 'ewww.' I don't usually behave that much like the Geist that I am, but I just have to after reading this. Why would R/Hr or H/Hr be 'ewww' if Hermione is older than they are? Cho is a year older than Harry, but he's had a crush on her since third year and asked her to the Ball. ::throws water balloon:: Ron asked Fleur to the Ball, and she's several years older than him. ::Heads up! Another wet one!:: When these boys were looking at these girls, neither one was saying 'ewww,' according to GoF. I'm not going to mince words here with IMHO or other things to soft-pedal this--it is sexist and antiquated to believe that in any mixed-gender relationship, the man has to be older than the woman. ::Squoosh! Another one!:: My mother- in-law is six years older than my father-in-law, my oldest sister is eight years older than her husband, and while it's less of a difference, I'm four days older than my husband. (I also had crushes on several different boys who were a year younger than me when I was still in high school.) In Fred/Angelina, Angelina is clearly older, as she qualifies to enter the tournament and Fred will not be turning 17 until the following April. :: Splersh!:: Is that also 'ewww?' Gah. This sort of immature thinking really sets me off. I'm very glad to see that JKR doesn't share these outdated attitudes. "Serena Moonsilver" wrote: > Actually, I think Hermione's age was controversal only because of > the Hermione is Harry's long lost sister theory. Well, I've already ranted but proof of Hermione's birthdate should not have been necessary to wipe this theory off the face of the earth. Good old-fashioned common sense should have done that. ::throws final water balloon:: Kersploish! --Barb AKA BabsGeist http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From byujava at yahoo.com Thu Apr 24 16:10:31 2003 From: byujava at yahoo.com (Kirsten Gilson) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 09:10:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry, Errol and Mrs. Norris In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030424161031.73392.qmail@web41310.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56045 > Carolyn wrote: > > > I've been wondering why Harry didn't get Ron a new > wand in CoS. > > Then Phyllis wrote: > > IIRC, the only place we've heard of that has shops > where a wizard can > purchase a wand is Diagon Alley. And Harry can't > get to Diagon Alley > once he's at Hogwarts. Even if there are shops in > Hogsmeade that > sell wands, Harry and Ron can't go there as > second-years. So I don't > think it was logistically feasible for Harry to get > Ron a new wand. I agree. And even if they had some sort of wizarding Internet service and they could order something online, it's the wand that chooses the wizard, so to get a good wand, Ron would have to physically be there to select it, it seems. Of course this brings up the point about Ron's first wand. Wasn't it a hand-me-down? I'm sorry, I don't have the books in front of me to remember, but everything else he has is a hand-me-down from his family or second-hand from some shop. So how well could it have worked for him? Of course, Crouch jr. didn't have any problems conjuring the dark mark with Harry's wand. By the way, I'm new, so I'd like to say 'hi' to everyone! -Kirsten __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Thu Apr 24 17:17:02 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 18:17:02 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The timeline on the DVD *confirms* canon; References: Message-ID: <3EA81C0E.000001.21441@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 56046 Sally wrote - There is always the possibility that Hermione skipped a grade or started early in Muggle school, which would mean she wouldn't have to miss any more than other Muggleborns. Somehow this seems very likely to me. ;) Me - It's certainly not 'very likely' because as many of us have said it's pretty much impossible to get state educational authorities to bend their rules in the UK. If she went to a public school then it's more likely. However, what I'm really posting to say (and don't take this personally Sally because you're like the nth person this week to do this). You do not skip a grade' in the UK because there's no such things as a grade - they're classes or years. I know it's nitpicky and that you Americans don't mean anything by it but it's annoying (well to me at any rate). K From gandharvika at hotmail.com Thu Apr 24 18:12:14 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 18:12:14 +0000 Subject: (FILK) The Name Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56047 The Name (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune _The Word_ by the Beatles) A Midi is here: http://hot.mididb.com/beatles/RubberSoul.php (My regular Beatle Midi site was down today...found this real cool one in the meantime) Dedicated to Amy Z. & Haggridd Harry: Speak the name and you'll be free Speak the name and be like me Speak the name they all abhor And the name is Voldemort It's okay, you can say Volde---mort In the beginning everybody said, "Don't speak the name, say 'You-Know-Who' instead Don't speak the name, we wouldn't dare Don't speak the name, we are too scared Don't speak the name, any more It's the name of Voldemort Don't say it, we hate it Volde---mort" Dumbledore, he said something wise Ever since then I knew it was alright Speak the name and do not fear Speak the name loud and clear Speak the name like Dumbledore And the name is Voldemort It's okay, you can say Volde---mort "Fear of a name increases fear Of the thing itself," he made it clear Always use the proper name You don't have to play that game I speak the name just as before And the name is Voldemort It's okay, you can say Volde---mort Say Volde---mort, say Volde---mort Say Volde---mort, say Volde---mort -Gail B. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From tahewitt at yahoo.com Thu Apr 24 18:13:10 2003 From: tahewitt at yahoo.com (Tyler Hewitt) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:13:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ADMIN: New OOP: prefix and spoiler policy In-Reply-To: <1051205725.15232.79592.m10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030424181310.8978.qmail@web14208.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56048 Firstly, I want to thank the administration for addressing what could be a sticky issue. I agree that it is inevitable that OOP spoilers will show up on a list like this, and I think that it is probably being handled in the best way possible. However, I am concerned about people (like myself) who are subscribed to this list in digest form. Digest form, for those who dont know, compiles several posts into one long e-mail message. This is to avoid having your mailbox clogged with hundreds of individual posts (I receive 2-4 HPFGU digests on a typical day, each containing about 10-25 individual posts). Having a OOP spoiler warning in the subject line of a post is fine, but those subbing in digest form still have to page through the body of the message to read the rest of the digest. Even if youre trying not to look, you catch words and often get the gist of what is being said. Im not concerned for myself. I plan on curling up on the 21st with OOP and not reading any HPFGU posts until Im finished with the book. Not everyone will get the book on the 21st, however, or may not want to avoid this list. Im assuming others subscribe to HPFGU with their work e-mail accounts, and letting unread non work related messages pile up probably isnt a good idea. Is this something we should be concerned with? Comments? Suggestions? Tyler __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Thu Apr 24 18:21:20 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 14:21:20 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What is Canon? References: Message-ID: <001601c30a8e$4ec2aa00$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56049 bboy_mn wrote: > I have to go back to the 'wizards can't choose their animagus form' > issue. I don't consider JKR's statement to date on this issue as canon > because she hasn't said it point blank as a statement of fact. At this point in time, i agree! I'm talking about making her words "pseudo-canon" AFTER the series is complete. When we DO know for sure what she meant and didn't mean by her words. > She said it in more than one interview (to the best of my memory) in > a way that would lead us to this reasonable conclusion. But it is > just that, OUR conclusion based on what we see as a reasonable > interpretation of what she said. That is no more valid or canonical > than a televangelist interpretation of the Bible. Or a Biblical scholar's interpretation for that matter... > On the other hand, if JKR says that James was a Gryffindor, then there > is not room for interpretation, if she states it as a fact, then it's > a fact. That is what I would consider canon, statements of fact by the > author. Actually no, statements of fact by the author do not fit the definition of "canon." That has been confirmed by many members of this list. That is why i like including her statements into the category of "psuedo-canon." But only after the series is finished. > So I will agree we need to be cautious about how literally we take > JKR's statements, but I also say the when she states a clear fact, it > becomes gospel. Gospel, yes. Canon, no. The definition of canon, once more: "The works of a writer that have been accepted as authentic." ~Katy~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From richasi at azlance.com Thu Apr 24 18:23:14 2003 From: richasi at azlance.com (Richasi) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 14:23:14 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:(FILK) The Name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56050 > The Name > (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune _The Word_ by the Beatles) *clap clap clap!* I'm going to be humming this all day now. LOL! (apologizes for the short reply) Richasi From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 24 18:21:43 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 18:21:43 -0000 Subject: Vampire Snape/Knowing Lucius was a DE/Remus as Spy (WAS: Thoughts and questions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56051 Rane wrote: > I'm very sure this has been suggested more than once (though I've > never actually seen a *discussion* as such on it, just the > question): Snape being a vampire. What I > don't understand is the scene in PoA when Snape catches Harry > coming back from Hogsmeade and gets his hands on the Marauder's > Map. Just before sweeping Harry and Ron out of the room, Lupin > says: "I'd like to have a word about my vampire essay." So > then, my logical conclusion would be that Lupin said that thing > about the vampire essay to get back at Snape for the werewolf one, > and to shock him enough to manage to get the heel out of his office. Now me: There are HPfGU-ers who believe that Snape is a vampire, and certainly the descriptions in canon support such a theory (he's often described as "gliding," always dressed in black...). With regard to Lupin's vampire essay reference - if Hermione was able to figure out that Lupin was a werewolf from Snape's assignment of the werewolf essay, presumably she would have been able to figure out that Snape is a vampire if Lupin had truly assigned the vampire essay (and if Snape truly is a vampire). So I don't think Lupin really did assign it - I agree with your theory that Lupin used it as a way to get out of the room quickly. Rane again: > But later, I started wondering if maybe Snape simply didn't *know* > Malfoy was a DE. Me again: It seems to me that it's fairly common knowledge that Lucius was a DE. As George tell Harry when they rescue him in the Anglia: "He [Lucius] was a big supporter of You Know Who." And Fred chimes in: "And when You Know Who disappeared...Lucius Malfoy came back saying he'd never meant any of it. Load of dung - Dad reckons he was right in You Know Who's inner circle." The book then goes on to say "Harry had heard these rumours about Malfoy's family before..." (CoS, Ch. 3). Even Borgin the shopkeeper says under his breath "...and if the stories are true, you haven't sold me half of what's hidden in your *manor*..." (CoS, Ch. 4). Rane again: > Speaking of spies, why did Sirius think Remus was the spy when LV > was threatening James' life? Well, as Professor McGonagall tells the group in the Three Broomsticks: "He [Dumbledore] was sue that somebody close to the Potters had been keeping You-Know-Who informed of their movements...Indeed, he had suspected for some time that someone on our side had turned traitor and was passing a lot of information to You-Know-Who" (PoA, Ch. 10). Since "somebody close to the Potters" was suspected, it's logical that Sirius would have suspected Remus and that Remus would have suspected Sirius. ~Phyllis From maialaia at yahoo.com Thu Apr 24 18:23:57 2003 From: maialaia at yahoo.com (The Entwife) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:23:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] School After Hogwarts (was: Money issues) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030424182357.97863.qmail@web10405.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56052 Darrin Burnett asked: Are there Wizard contractors to build houses, or are those done through magic? ~~~~~~~~~ I think this goes back to a much eariler debated question of "What happens after Hogwarts?" ie: Are there Wizard Universities? etc.... I have no proof, of course, but I always assumed that there were wizarding vocational/trade schools, Where one would learn how to specialize in say, metal repair (for pipes) or what have you. ~Squee ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From dragonquillca at yahoo.com Thu Apr 24 16:18:54 2003 From: dragonquillca at yahoo.com (Carolyn) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:18:54 -0000 Subject: Ron's Wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56053 Which raises another question. How would Ron have been expected to perform spells correctly, not to mention pass his exams, with a broken wand? Professors McGonagal and Snape both comment on it. I know I may be splitting hairs here, but it makes no sense to expect a wizard-in-training to accomplish much with a broken wand, especially for an entire school year. Carolyn --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: Even if there are shops in Hogsmeade that sell wands, Harry and Ron can't go there as second-years. So I don't think it was logistically feasible for Harry to get Ron a new wand. > > ~Phyllis From wafball at yahoo.com.au Thu Apr 24 14:21:54 2003 From: wafball at yahoo.com.au (=?iso-8859-1?q?rosi?=) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 00:21:54 +1000 (EST) Subject: The timeline on the DVD *confirms* canon; In-Reply-To: <1051120335.8314.21194.m14@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030424142154.29521.qmail@web14506.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56054 Ali wrote: I went to a private (Public) secondary school and there were 3 kids in the year who shouldn't have been there. I can still remember who they were, and how successful they were. They were the subject of constant jibes. My own brother managed to concertina his 5th and 6th year into one, so I certainly know it happens.But it doesn't happen without stick. Private schools do allow for greater flexibility, and Hogwarts is certainly not part of the normal State system. But, what private schools cannot take away is the fact that this is unusual. Unusual enough that we should know that Hermione is advanced. rosi: I must say that I have to agree with Ali. I was accelerated twice when I was in school and during that time I was constantly taunted because of it. Even now, in university, I still get some jokes about it. If Hermione was/is accelerated a year, I think that we would have been told about it. Or, at least the other kids in her grade would have said *something* (they can't have not noticed it, really!). (i hope my list elf accepts this post) -rosi http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile - Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone mobile. From maialaia at yahoo.com Thu Apr 24 18:55:23 2003 From: maialaia at yahoo.com (The Entwife) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:55:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and Mrs. Norris In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030424185523.81702.qmail@web10404.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56055 > > ~Phyllis: > We know that wizards can turn into animals, but > could it be possible > that animals can turn into other forms of animals in > the wizarding > world? Could Mrs. Norris really be a lion in > disguise? Squee: Well if that were the case I would say it would be much more likely that she'd been enchanted to be as such rather than a naturally occuring phenomena. Perhaps she'll turn into a lion if a child or the grounds are actually threatened? > Carolyn again: > > > I've been wondering why Harry didn't get Ron a new > wand in CoS. > > Phyllis: > > IIRC, the only place we've heard of that has shops > where a wizard can > purchase a wand is Diagon Alley. And Harry can't > get to Diagon Alley > Even if they were allowed to go there I think Harry & Hermione would be hard-pressed to get Ron to accept it as a gift. I think perhaps if they were able to get a wand by themselves and present it to Ron with the statement "No returns" etc, then he might take it, but who knows if it would work? It seems pretty clear when Harry picks out his wand that the wand has to be carefully matched to the bearer. ~Squee ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From siskiou at earthlink.net Thu Apr 24 19:12:27 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:12:27 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The timeline on the DVD *confirms* canon; In-Reply-To: <20030424142154.29521.qmail@web14506.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030424142154.29521.qmail@web14506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <11511839366.20030424121227@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 56056 Hi, Thursday, April 24, 2003, 7:21:54 AM, rosi wrote: > Or, at least the other > kids in her grade would have said *something* (they > can't have not noticed it, really!). I agree. She might have been able to keep quiet about her age, but after several birthdays it should have come out eventually. Maybe there is no taunting because Hermione isn't really *that* young? After all, a few weeks is really no big deal. It's not as if she is a virtual genius who is years younger than her peers. But I agree with what several people on this list have touch upon: one was Ali, who wrote > But, I would still have to maintain that placing the cut-off > here[Autumn Equinox] would have been an after-thought, to fit the facts that JKR had > already provided us with. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From Frontsiderocker at msn.com Thu Apr 24 19:20:51 2003 From: Frontsiderocker at msn.com (Mark Hewitt) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 20:20:51 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry, Errol and Mrs. Norris Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56057 Carolyn wrote,.. >I've been wondering why Harry didn't get Ron a new wand in CoS. Phyllis wrote,.. >Even if there are shops in Hogsmeade that sell wands, Harry and Ron can't >go there as second-years. So I don't think it was logistically feasible >for Harry to get Ron a new wand. Me,.. I don't supposed you could owl order a wand? Or do you have to be present at the purchase of a wand?-("The wand chooses the Wizard") It is after all the most important part of a Wizards equipment. Also did Ron have the same wand before the accident? (14" Willow with Unicorn hair core) Faith wrote,.. >As we see strong indications of in GoF Ron is very proud. I doubt he >would >have taken the offer from Harry. He rather would have been >highly >insulted. I think also Ron felt it was a justified punishment >after the >car incident. Me,.. I agree with Faith, Ron's character does have a strong sense of pride (incidents with Hermione/Harry over seemingly petty things) I beleive he's also slightly jealous of both Harry's and Hermione's maturity and intelligence. Ron seems to be the lesser of the 3 characters, being the average student with no particular special skills. Despite this I feel he's the easiest of the 3 characters to relate to. Frontsiderocker _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail messages direct to your mobile phone http://www.msn.co.uk/mobile [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jmholmes at breckcomm.com Thu Apr 24 19:39:39 2003 From: jmholmes at breckcomm.com (Julie Holmes) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:39:39 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIPping Attitudes // Hermione's Age References: Message-ID: <005f01c30a99$3eb37c10$6501a8c0@slytherincess> No: HPFGUIDX 56058 <----- Original Message ----- From: psychic_serpent > Thank you, Barb. My husband is 5.5 years younger than I am. I can't for the life of me imagine why in the world it would matter if Hermione were older than either Harry or Ron, or why that would be squicky. As it was mentioned, Harry likes Cho, who is one year older than he is. Nobody seems to think that is a problem. Of course, my parents had a 22 year age different between them, so perhaps I'm a bit skewed. Oh, and my dad was once my mother's teacher. ;) *wanders away muttering snapehermionesnapehermione* ;) From Dionysos at Dionysia.org Thu Apr 24 20:34:56 2003 From: Dionysos at Dionysia.org (Dan Delaney) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:34:56 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron's Wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <360E2982-7694-11D7-80AB-000A27E2A402@dionysia.org> No: HPFGUIDX 56059 On Thursday, April 24, 2003, at 12:18 PM, Carolyn wrote: > How would Ron have been expected to perform spells correctly, not to > mention pass his exams, with a broken wand? Professors McGonagal and > Snape both comment on it. I've always thought that was kinda silly too. They have school brooms and school owls that all students can use who don't have their own, surely they have a stock of school wands that students can use if, for some reason, his or hers breaks or is lost. It seems that they would have other equipment there too, such as cauldrons and such. --Dan From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com Thu Apr 24 21:03:02 2003 From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 14:03:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hermione's Age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030424210303.8562.qmail@web21101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56060 Yours truly: > > Well, at least one shipper somewhere > > (can't for the life of me remember > > exactly where in Potterdom) argued > > that if Hermione is older than Harry > > (or did she say Ron?) then they can't > > become a couple...'cause that'd be too > > 'ewww.' > > > > I really hope that there's more of a > > basis for the interest in Hermione's > > age than this but I've never seen it > > articulated anywhere else either. > > Anyone? Does this issue come up (more > > than just in passing) anywhere else > > with the kind of passion it usually > > exhibits in shipping threads? Serena Moonsilver: > Actually, I think Hermione's age > was controversal only because of > the Hermione is Harry's long lost > sister theory. For it to be viable > she had to be older than him by at > least 10 months (well possibly > nine but I'd like to give Lily a > little break!) Anyways, if Harry > and Hermione were brother/sister > then there would be a definite "EW" > factor in the H/H ship. However, > the dvd timeline squashes almost > any chance of the H/H brother/sister. Thanks for clearing that up...glad to hear that there's something more to this than an insistence on the older male/younger female romantic paradigm. Hmm...does this mean the H/H sibling theory marks the start of the intense interest in Hermione's age? Yknow, I hate to see any theory squashed......they could still be siblings (maybe even twins) if one or both celebrate their birthday(s) on a symbolic as opposed to actual birth date. This seems to mostly happen when the actual date is for some reason unknown, mostly in cases of adoptions and orphans. Cause really, how many of us can tell an infants age with true accuracy? Interesting JKR may very well have chosen to take a cannon out of the store of shippers arsenal. Or not. * * * BabsGeist (Barb), in part: > Why would R/Hr or H/Hr be 'ewww' > if Hermione is older than they are? > Cho is a year older than Harry, > but he's had a crush on her since > third year and asked her to the > Ball. ::throws water balloon:: > Ron asked Fleur to the Ball, and > she's several years older than him. > ::Heads up! Another wet one!:: > > When these boys were looking at > these girls, neither one was > saying 'ewww,' according to GoF. > I'm not going to mince words here > with IMHO or other things to > soft-pedal this--it is sexist and > antiquated to believe that in any > mixed-gender relationship, the man > has to be older than the woman. > ::Squoosh! Another one!:: Well said indeed. Petra a n :) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From emeleel at juno.com Thu Apr 24 19:51:27 2003 From: emeleel at juno.com (Melanie L Ellis) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 14:51:27 -0500 Subject: The timeline on the DVD *confirms* canon; Message-ID: <20030424.150455.-948875.0.emeleel@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56061 Sally wrote: >There is always the possibility that Hermione skipped a grade or started early in Muggle school, which >would mean she wouldn't have to miss any more than other Muggleborns. Somehow this seems very likely >to me. ;) Is there any possibility in the English system of having skipped the equivelant of American Kindergarten? When I started school (I am now 31) Kindergarten was not mandatory. When my mom when to register me for school, all the K classes were filled, so I was put directly into 1st grade. (And as it was, I was bored the first two weeks!) I never skipped any grades after that although I was sorely tempted to try for it, but I was still always the youngest person in my classes. BTW, I didn't into myself when I posted yesterday, sorry about that! My name is Melanie, and I'm from Alabama, USA. I have two kids, 7 and 4, and we all really like the HP books. Scarily enough, my son actually looks a *lot* like a 7 year old HP, glasses and all. (And HP was *not* in mind when he chose them!) Melanie Ellis Alabama Homeschool Message Board http://pub77.ezboard.com/balabamahomeschoolmessageboard ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From clam at uol.com.br Thu Apr 24 20:57:15 2003 From: clam at uol.com.br (Gomes Moor) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 20:57:15 -0000 Subject: Snape's special title Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56062 Hi! I'm delurking for a minute just to ask you: does anyone have any idea about why Snape is the only member of Hogwarts' staff who is called "master"? There is a passage at GoF where this is quite remarkable: "Harry scanned the table more carefully. Tiny little Professor Flitwick, the Charms teacher, was sitting on a large pile of cushions beside Professor Sprout, the Herbology teacher, whose hat was askew over her flyaway gray hair. She was talking to Professor Sinistra of the Astronomy department. On Professor Sinistra's other side was the sallow-faced, hook-nosed, greasy-haired Potions master, Snape." (GoF, US, ch 12) Gomes Moor From ivanova at idcnet.com Thu Apr 24 19:48:36 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 14:48:36 -0500 Subject: Ron's Wand WAS Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry, Errol and Mrs. Norris References: <20030424161031.73392.qmail@web41310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003a01c30a9a$bb0f4f90$72ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 56063 Kirsten wrote: (snip) >I agree. And even if they had some sort of wizarding >Internet service and they could order something >online, it's the wand that chooses the wizard, so to >get a good wand, Ron would have to physically be there >to select it, it seems. >Of course this brings up the point about Ron's first >wand. Wasn't it a hand-me-down? I'm sorry, I don't >have the books in front of me to remember, but >everything else he has is a hand-me-down from his >family or second-hand from some shop. So how well >could it have worked for him? >Of course, Crouch jr. didn't have any problems >conjuring the dark mark with Harry's wand. It has never been said that a wizard can't use another wizard's wand. Just that a wizard using another wizard's wand or a wand that wasn't tailor-fit to that particular person wouldn't work as well for the wizard in question as their own wand. Crouch Jr. shouldn't have had a problem using Harry's wand to conjure the Dark Mark. He knows the spell and Harry's wand is in perfect working order. Harry's wand overall wouldn't work as well for Crouch Jr. because the wand chose Harry, not Crouch Jr. In a way, it's a good thing that Ron broke his first wand, since the wand was originally someone else's. Now he has a wand that has chosen him. He might have lost out in his second year, but what he missed in that year may arguably be made up quickly simply because he is using his own tailored wand. And yes, I'm a newbie, too. This is my first post. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova/ From eclipse02134 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 24 21:20:04 2003 From: eclipse02134 at yahoo.com (Eclipse) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 14:20:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Book May/June 2003 Issue In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030424212004.59402.qmail@web20802.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56064 The issue has an article on Harry Potter and the Order of Phoenix. I don't have it with me to see what it says. Eclipse __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From JessaDrow at aol.com Thu Apr 24 21:25:55 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:25:55 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron's Wand Message-ID: <1e2.77e74f3.2bd9b063@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56065 In a message dated 4/24/03 5:03:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Dionysos at Dionysia.org writes: > On Thursday, April 24, 2003, at 12:18 PM, Carolyn wrote: > >How would Ron have been expected to perform spells correctly, not to > >mention pass his exams, with a broken wand? Professors McGonagal and > >Snape both comment on it. > I don't think theres much use for wands in potion class in any case. ~Faith~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From the.gremlin at verizon.net Thu Apr 24 21:30:29 2003 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (the.gremlin at verizon.net) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:30:29 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Vampire Snape/Knowing Lucius was a DE/Remus as Spy (WAS: Thoughts and questions) Message-ID: <20030424213029.XAXP28930.out004.verizon.net@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 56066 Phyllis wrote: "There are HPfGU-ers who believe that Snape is a vampire, and ertainly the descriptions in canon support such a theory (he's often described as "gliding," always dressed in black...). With regard to Lupin's vampire essay reference - if Hermione was able to figure out that Lupin was a werewolf from Snape's assignment of the werewolf essay, presumably she would have been able to figure out that Snape is a vampire if Lupin had truly assigned the vampire essay (and if Snape truly is a vampire). So I don't think Lupin really did assign it - I agree with your theory that Lupin used it as a way to get out of the room quickly." Canon for Lupin assigning the vampire essay. Set-up: Harry is trying to sneak off to Hogsmeade when he runs into Neville, who is barred from Hogsmeade for leaving the passwords to Gryffendor Tower lying around. Harry has just asked Neville what he's doing: "'Nothing ,' shrugged Neville. 'Want a game of exploding Snap?' 'Er--not now--I was going to go to the library and do that vampire essay for Lupin--'" Lupin actually did assign the vampire essay. However, the conversation continues: "'I'll come with you!' Neville said brightly. 'I haven't done it either!' 'Er--hang on--yeah, I forgot, I finished it last night!' 'Great, you can help me!' said Neville, his round face anxious. 'I don't understand that thing about garlic at all--do they have to eat it, or--' He broke off with a small gasp, looking over Harry's shoulder. It was Snape. Neville took a quick step behind Harry." Whether Neville stopped talking because he's afraid of Snape, or whether he stopped talking because he believes Snape is a vampire and was afraid he would offend Snape is not clear. I am of the camp that believes Snape is *not* a vampire. However, maybe 'vampire' was a name used to tease Snape when he was in school, and Lupin knows this. He does resemble one in looks and personality. And Neville is deathly afraid of Snape. I found the vampire name-calling in a fanfic, but maybe that's why Lupin assigned the essay. He wanted to get back at Snape, because MWPP used to call Snape a vampire, and it ignites old memories for Snape. Just my thoughts. -Acire, who is finding it difficult to type with her colon/semi-colon key broken...is it possible to fix that? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From JessaDrow at aol.com Thu Apr 24 21:30:23 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:30:23 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and Mrs. Norris Message-ID: <50.1bbc0062.2bd9b16f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56067 In a message dated 4/24/03 3:24:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, maialaia at yahoo.com writes: > I think perhaps if they were able to get a wand by > themselves and present it to Ron with the statement > "No returns" etc, then he might take it, but who knows > if it would work? It seems pretty clear when Harry > picks out his wand that the wand has to be carefully > matched to the bearer. > That might have worked, if Ron had ever had a wand of his own before. I imagine that a wandmaster wouldn't be willing to sell a wand to someone by owl post who had never been sized for one before. ~Faith~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From metslvr19 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 24 21:34:00 2003 From: metslvr19 at yahoo.com (Laura) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 21:34:00 -0000 Subject: SHIPping Attitudes In-Reply-To: <20030422050920.76794.qmail@web21110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56068 Don't ask me why I'm trying to stop this thread. I know it won't work. But "certain feelings between the 3 of them" means "certain feelings between the 3 of them." I think most of us agree that Ron has "certain feelings" for Hermione. The use of the number "3" leads us to believe that there is at least one other arrow out there. But guess what? That one little sentance gives us absolutely NO INFORMATION about what that other arrow might be. In the movie all kinds of hints are flying for feelings in every which direction. JKR simply said that the direction or screenwriter or whoever it is we're talking about alluded to these feelings in Episode #2, while JKR didn't really bring them up until Episode #4. The end. =) IMHO, there are arrows everywhere. You have 3 adolescents, two males and one female, who are all very close friends. You mean to tell me that only *one* of them has any kind of crush/romantic feelings? Someone has already mentioned that Hermione may well have considered Ron and Harry as romantic partners, and I think it's rather silly to argue that there is no way that she hasn't. Granted, she hasn't shown any of these feelings, but that's because *she's Hermione* She is very logical and practical. I highly doubt she would show any feelings for someone until she was absolutely sure that she had feelings for them, that they had feelings for her, that a relationship would be practical, ect. Hermione isn't exactly the passionate type to suddenly blurt out, "Oh my gosh [Harry/Ron/Draco/insert name here], I really like you!" and then lean in and give them a kiss. She is going to make pretty damn sure she knows what she's doing and then take it slow from there. She could very well "have feelings for" one or both of the male members of the trio. Ron's feelings are a lot more blatant, simply because *he's Ron* He *is* the sort of passionate type that Hermione isn't. He doesn't take it to the extreme, but he doesn't try to hide his feelings as Hermione does. Hermione is quite logical and organized. Ron just is. Ron just does whatever he *feels* like doing. For example, in the famous Yule Ball fight, he is mad at Hermione and he says so. It probably never occured to him to hide his feelings of anger and jealousy toward Krum. This kind of thing would, however, occur to Hermione. For the sake of the arguement, let's say she likes Harry. She would stop and (what else?) *think* before showing any jealousy towards Pavarati. Of course, this wouldn't make any sense in the context of the story, since there really was nothing between them to be jealous *of* , but I use it as an example. Hermione acts based on what she thinks. Ron acts based on what he feels. So we clearly see Ron's feelings, whereas Hermione's are harder to decipher, because it's entirely probable that she's hiding something. As for Harry, I think we get a pretty clear indication that he likes Cho. Based on that, I think that any feelings for Hermione would be stated in similar manners. For example, he doesn't imagine Hermione's face "glowing with admiration" should he win the Triwizard Tournament. This isn't to say that he and Hermione might make a good match or that there may be some feelings in the future, but based on the fact that the books are written from Harry's POV, I think we can say that if Harry likes Hermione, he hasn't even admitted it to himself yet (as there are subtle hints). So basically, we have Ron liking Hermione, Harry liking Cho (and if Hermione enters the picture, only as a peripheral) and Hermione too busy studying to care about guys. =) -Laura that was way longer than I intended it to be. I really didn't mean to contribute this much to s *SHIP* debate. *sigh* From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Apr 24 21:34:48 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 21:34:48 -0000 Subject: Transfiguration vs Animagus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56069 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Monita" wrote: > Hey Tom, > I agree that the correlation between transfiguration and animagi is > smudged by the picture of Macgonagall as a Transfiguration teacher. > True Animagus is a separate condition linked but not the same. > My guess is that we will discover the link is strong between skillful > transfigurers and animagi. But that is not canon yet. > > ...edited... > > TheValk speaks bboy_mn: I'm inclined to agree with this line of thought. Animagus is certainly a form of Transfiguration, but is much different than what Viktor Krum did for the second task (shark tranformation), and is much different than turning guinea fowl into guinea pigs. Common Transfiguration is that casting of a specific spell that is probably short lived (I didn't see anyone casting a counter spell to change Viktor back to his normal self, so I assumed after an hour the spell just wore off). Although, it is possible that there are other tranfiguation spells that would cause permanent or at least long term changes. These would be more like transfiguration spells used as curses. Animagus, I can only assume, is a long complex process that may require several potions as well as many complex and dangerous spells and charms, and a lot of time to complete the transformation. That transformation I speak of is not the tranformation of the person into his animal, but the transformation of a wizards into an animagus. The transformation into a wizard who can change himself to and from an animal form at will. That's far far different than casting a spell on an as needed basis, but I suspect that it still falls into the catagory of magic labeled Transfiguration. Just a thought. bboy_mn From JessaDrow at aol.com Thu Apr 24 21:35:19 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:35:19 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry, Errol and Mrs. Norris Message-ID: <128.2880fbbc.2bd9b297@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56070 In a message dated 4/24/03 1:44:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, byujava at yahoo.com writes: > I agree. And even if they had some sort of wizarding > Internet service and they could order something > online, it's the wand that chooses the wizard, so to > get a good wand, Ron would have to physically be there > to select it, it seems. > I just said the same thing in another mail, and I apologize for repeating something that was already said. > Of course this brings up the point about Ron's first > wand. Wasn't it a hand-me-down? I'm sorry, I don't > have the books in front of me to remember, but > everything else he has is a hand-me-down from his > family or second-hand from some shop. So how well > could it have worked for him? > I've been giving this some thought, and trying to come to a conclusion on this myself. But the only explaination I can come up with, is he is Ron's brother, and perhaps family members use generally the same type of wands? I don't know, sounds kinda lame, huh? Any other ideas? ~Faith~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Thu Apr 24 20:36:33 2003 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Ibot=20Bracchae-Breves?=) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 21:36:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] re: The Spiritual Symbolism of HP (was: The Philosopher's Stone) In-Reply-To: <000001c30a52$dc9eda60$12080150@chris> Message-ID: <20030424203633.45876.qmail@web21507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56071 Gwendolyn Grace wrote - Yes, there's a great deal of symbolism in the books, but where I object to the (predominantly) Christian readings of the books is that most of those symbols are *much* older than Christianity, and at *no* time have those symbols been exclusively Christian. Alson wrote - I take your point about the history of the symbols, and there is such a huge amount of imagery in the books that could be taken symbolically its not difficult to selectively pick out those which tend to confirm your own particular preferred viewpoint. My response ? Thanks for those comments. I think the point is that Dr Rowling is deliberately using universal symbols so that no group will be offended. The moment she uses an overtly Christian symbol there will be violent reactions from the Moslem world, from communist countries like China, and many other groups and individuals. HP is enormously popular in Asia because the symbols are so universal! I also agree that many traditional Christian symbols were adopted from earlier religions by the early church. For example I believe (correct me if I?m wrong) the phoenix originated in ancient Egypt, although I?ve also seen it in ancient Japanese things as well. Similarly the Griffin seems to have originated in the ancient Middle East many thousands of years ago. In the middle ages Christian leaders chose the griffin as a symbol of Christ because with its lion feet it touched the earth and with its wings it touched heaven, showing the supremacy of Christ over heaven and earth. My theory is that there is a kind of alternate universe, a parallel universe existing alongside ours. Dr Rowling has either consciously or unconsciously touched upon that universe. My theory is that the very deepest spiritual essence of the human being originated in the Other Universe. Although in our universe we are mortal and morally weak, I believe that throughout myriads of millennia the brothers and sisters we left behind in the Other Universe keep trying to call us back. All religions are human reactions to the call to return. "The Call" is in the form of symbols, which address the subconscious mind of every human being. The archetypes in the collective subconscious I believe are a kind of blueprint or roadmap for the return to the Other universe. Every impulse from the Other universe results in a very powerful reaction in the human race. Time and space do not have barriers for the people in the Other universe, and so these impulses are spaced many hundreds of years apart. Whether it?s the ancient Egyptian religion or that of the Aztecs or Taoism or Christianity, the teachings are always in symbolic form and they always speak to the archetypes in the subconscious. Dr Rowling in my humble opinion is bringing a new call from the Other universe to shake humanity awake and create a longing to return there. So far the four books have been an exact road map to make the journey. In my first message I pointed out that each book brings liberation to Harry, the new-born soul which is the heir of the Other universe. Alison wrote ? I found Hans? explanation of the way he sees the symbolic aspects fascinating and, in my view, his interpretation does not try to force the books into being a simplistic or purely Christian story but draws out those elements while allowing other readings as equally valid. I do think we need to keep open minds about this as it is such a complex area. My response ? I?m thrilled about this reaction! I couldn?t agree more with Alison. Gwendolyn Grace - While we can debate whether fantasy has its roots in Christianity, particularly given the influence in the 20th century of JRR Tolkien, I say that those roots go much, much deeper than just a retelling of the Bible. The oldest known work of literature, The Epic of Gilgamesh, is at heart a tale of death and rebirth. Campbell relies heavily on the archetypes it establishes for his "Hero's Journey." My reaction ? Yes, absolutely! In my first email I didn?t mention Gilgamesh, but I totally agree that it should be there! The point is that there is only one Truth. That Truth can never be found in this fallible universe, but every so often it comes to us in symbolical form from the Other universe. We fallible humans consume the symbols because we recognise them from within ourselves. And we react with great enthusiasm because, as Dr Jung said, the unconscious mind has more influence on our lives than the conscious mind. Alison?s reply to Gwendolyn - As I understand it this fits in with the Inklings (J.R.R.Tolkien, C.S.Lewis etc) view of such stories as 'true myth' and an indication that this basic story is somehow built into the human consciousness and always has been. This would account for why such stories have such a powerful hold on the imagination and have a popular appeal that purely literary critics can't account for. My reaction: EXACTLY! Gwendolyn Grace - Greek myths. Gilgamesh. The Odyssey. Metamorphoses. The Egyptian pantheon and myths associated with them: Osiris, Anubis, Isis, Ra, etc. The Mabinogion. The legend of Herne the Hunter. Arthurian legend. These works have the same themes and stories as the roots of HP interwoven through them - and they're no less effective. Rowling draws on them as much as she does upon Mediaeval legend, Shakespeare, Scott, Shelley, Dickens, and a host of other cultural and literary resources and references. She deliberately plays on what we *know* - and what we *think* we know. My reaction ? Thank you for adding to my list in my first message on this. Alison ? I am very glad to discover that some other people do recognise this level of allusion and complexity in the books. I have lost count of the number of times I have been told to stop taking a simple kid?s book so seriously! Because it works as an excellent and entertaining story with a great deal of humour it is often seen only on that level. The other thing that tends to happen is that people spot one allusion and leap on it as an example of plagiarism. It?s good to find a place where this can be discussed. My reaction: You bet, Alison! However, maybe it?s not a bad idea that people in authority think it?s a children?s book. A lot of adults are closed to liberating thoughts while children are open to them. In addition a part of my theory is that there are vested interests, thousands of years old, which do not want people to undertake the journey to the Other universe. They derive their power from having humanity ignorant of the Truth of its origins. When they wake up to what?s going on things might change. But possibly not, because HP is so ingeniously written that no one can really stop the call now that it?s been heard by so many people. In a future posting I want to explain why I think HP will be the gospel for a new religion in the Age of Aquarius. Alison - I am certainly making no claims to know what JKR intends or where the story is going. What I do object to is when people deny that there is any deeper meaning or spiritual/religious element to be found in the books. It seems to me to be quite obvious that there is. I am quite happy to discuss exactly what that meaning might be! My reaction ? I can?t claim to know either. However to me the symbols are so clear and universal that it?s almost like a language that Dr Rowling speaks and that I recognise as a language that I can understand. I guess I?ve spent so much time using my heart as a tuning fork for symbols and archetypes it?s become a second nature. It?s not a mental thing at all. There have been no reactions to my theory that the basilisk symbolises the kundalini. That?s most probably because no one?s ever heard of it. However I do suggest you type it into your search engine and see what comes up. You?ll be quite surprised. I believe it?s a Sanskrit word meaning, "coiled up like a snake". When I mentioned the "Voice of the Silence" I forgot to say it was first published in 1889. Next time I want to discuss amazing similarities between a 17th century publication called "Chymische Hochzeit Christiani Rosencreutz", published in 1616, and the story of HP. Hans --------------------------------- Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 24 21:37:09 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 21:37:09 -0000 Subject: Snape's special title In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56072 Gomes Moor wrote: > Does anyone have any idea about why Snape is the only member of > Hogwarts' staff who is called "master"? Now me: That's an excellent question, and I haven't a clue what the answer is, but I can think of two other instances off the top of my head where Snape is referred to as the potions master - once by Snape himself, and once by Lockhart: Snape, after Lockhart says he can whip up the Mandrake draught to revive Mrs. Norris: "Excuse me,' said Snape icily, 'but I believe I am the Potions master at this school.'" (Ch. 9, CoS). and Lockhart at the duelling club: "Now I don't want any of you youngsters to worry - you'll still have your Potions master when I'm through with him, never fear!" (Ch. 11, CoS). ~Phyllis From gily_ann at yahoo.com Thu Apr 24 21:29:45 2003 From: gily_ann at yahoo.com (gily_ann) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 21:29:45 -0000 Subject: Ginny's Birthday or age. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56073 Hello! This is something that's been bugging me for a while. I search to see if there was something similar but I couldn't find it. When is Ginny's birthday? I know we don't know, but an aproximate of it. We know March 1 is Ron's Birthday. And somebody said it was 1980 the year???? But when would it be aproximate time for her. Someone told me that in some Spanish place JKR said it was Oct. 31???? Does anybod have any idea that can give me a little help. I'm rather bad at numbers. Thanks Gily Ann From KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET Thu Apr 24 21:32:03 2003 From: KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET (Linda Treantafel) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:32:03 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's special title In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56074 On Thu, 24 Apr 2003 20:57:15 -0000 "Gomes Moor" wrote: >>I'm delurking for a minute just to ask you: does anyone >have any idea >>about why Snape is the only member of Hogwarts' staff >>who is >>called "master"? I would think that it may be simply a title that goes with the level of accomplishment within his specialty. There are many vocations that I know of that carry the title "master" once the person practicing it becomes proficient enough to stand on their own as it were. A barber, a plumber and an electrician are a few that come to mind. Now that I think about it, potion making seems to be more of an actual vocation than the other disciplines being taught. It entails using a very specific set of skills in a very specific way. Linda From sushi at societyhappens.com Thu Apr 24 21:43:30 2003 From: sushi at societyhappens.com (Sushi) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:43:30 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's special title In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030424163839.0348de30@mail.societyhappens.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56075 Gomes Moor wrote: >I'm delurking for a minute just to ask you: does anyone have any idea >about why Snape is the only member of Hogwarts' staff who is >called "master"? "Master" or "mistress" is a title used to denote a teacher. I'm not sure, but I suspect it's got roots in the Medieval guild system (and before that probably comes from Roman occupation in Britain). "Headmaster" just means "head teacher". I suspect Snape was given that designation because it sounds more sinister than "Potions teacher". It also flows better, IMO, although that's probably got something to do with the sinister aspect. Sushi, too tired to make this more amusing [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Apr 24 21:47:13 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 21:47:13 -0000 Subject: Money issues that have puzzled me. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56076 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Devika" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > >..... Once the boys learn magic, I suspect shaving is optional. > > That is, you only grow whiskers if you choose to do so, otherwise, > > your face stays clean. > > > > .... Sirius is described as having an "unshaven" face. This would > seem to imply that his facial hair grows whether he wants it to or > not. ...edited... > > ... Harry's shaving ... will go the way of Harry's Christmas and > birthday presents to Ron and Hermione. In other words, it won't be > mentioned and we'll just have to assume it's there. > > Devika :) bboy_mn: I guess I cut my statement a little too short. What I was trying to say is that they would have magic means of dealing with this, shaving, etc.... I was thinking along the line of a spell or charm that was cast periodically, although force of magical will or intent could also come into play as it does with Harry's hair. Let's remember that Sirius's magical power was tremendously supressed while he was in Azkaban, and he didn't have a wand. Also, we don't know whether his normal preferred state is clean-shaven or not. It seems common for many wizard to grow beards as they get older, more common than the muggle population in general. Although, I will agree with your last point, I don't think any of this will ever come up in the book. So far, no one has brushed their teeth, Wood is the only one we know of who took a shower and that was only one, no one gets haircuts, and no one goes to the bathroom (other than Hermione's reference to using Moaning Myrtle's bathroom when she is desperate). Most of these thing aren't covered in any books unless they are important to the plot, these are things that are just assumed. So I won't hold my breath waiting for JKR to give us a detail explaination of the grooming habits and practices of wizards. Just a thought. bboy_mn From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Thu Apr 24 21:34:12 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 22:34:12 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's special title References: Message-ID: <3EA85854.000004.17153@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 56077 Gomes Moor wrote: I'm delurking for a minute just to ask you: does anyone have any idea about why Snape is the only member of Hogwarts' staff who is called "master"? There is a passage at GoF where this is quite remarkable: "Harry scanned the table more carefully. Tiny little Professor Flitwick, the Charms teacher, was sitting on a large pile of cushions beside Professor Sprout, the Herbology teacher, whose hat was askew over her flyaway gray hair. She was talking to Professor Sinistra of the Astronomy department. On Professor Sinistra's other side was the sallow-faced, hook-nosed, greasy-haired Potions master, Snape." (GoF, US, ch 12) Now me - Well it could be nothing more than JKR varying her descriptions - we get Charms teacher, 'of the Astronomy Department' and potions Master when she could have said Charms teacher, Astronomy teacher and Potions teacher. Having added that disclaimer that it could be nothing ..... JKR has said there is no formal further education in the wizarding world and many of us have speculated that some professions could well use a more traditional apprenticeship/guild type system. In which case Master would be a designation of skill level - apprentice, journeyman, master. An apprentice would study with a master until the master felt they were competent enough to become a journeyman at which point they would work on their own and through practice improve their skill until they could reach the level of skill necessary to passs the test to become a master - generally achieved by producing a master piece. This would work well with professions like Potions Brewing/Alchemy, Wand Making etc With subjects like Charms it would we a lot more subjective - possibly based on performing a specific spell or maybe inventing a variation on a spell. K From metslvr19 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 24 21:50:32 2003 From: metslvr19 at yahoo.com (Laura) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 21:50:32 -0000 Subject: Ron's Wand In-Reply-To: <360E2982-7694-11D7-80AB-000A27E2A402@dionysia.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56078 Carolyn said: > > > How would Ron have been expected to perform spells correctly, not to mention pass his exams, with a broken wand? Professors McGonagal and Snape both comment on it. > > > Dan responded: > > > I've always thought that was kinda silly too. They have school brooms and school owls that all students can use who don't have their own, surely they have a stock of school wands that students can use if, for some reason, his or hers breaks or is lost. It seems that they would have other equipment there too, such as cauldrons and such. > > > So I say: OK, so I'm getting really picky here. But we do have some circumstantial evidence that they have extra cauldrons lying around. Neville has destroyed quite a few of them, and it would seem rather impractical to have him sit out for a few days of Potions lessons while his Gran sent him a new cauldron by owl. Besides, think about sending a cauldron by owl. We don't have much canon as to how big they are...but still. You get the point. Unless Neville comes with 2's and 3's of all his supplies because of the liklihood that he'll break something. =) Another thing that just occurred to me- how did Hermione brew the Polyjuice Potion in the girls' bathroom for over a month and still presumably take Potions lessons, in which she would most likely need her cauldron a few times. More nitpicking, of course, but we can use this to speculate that there are spare cauldrons. Although the fact that there seems to be no mention of extra wands seems very odd. Perhaps its because of what Kristen wrote in response to Phyllis's comment that it was implausible for Harry to buy Ron a new wand in CoS: > > > it's the wand that chooses the wizard, so to get a good wand, Ron would have to physically be there to select it, it seems. Of course this brings up the point about Ron's first wand. Wasn't it a hand-me-down? I'm sorry, I don't have the books in front of me to remember, but everything else he has is a hand-me-down from his family or second-hand from some shop. So how well could it have worked for him? Of course, Crouch jr. didn't have any problems conjuring the dark mark with Harry's wand. By the way, I'm new, so I'd like to say 'hi' to everyone! > > > First of all, Hi Kristen. =) Now back to the wands. =) I'm relatively certain that Ron's wand used to belong to Charlie. I know used to belong to one of his older brothers, either Bill or Charlie, and I'm leaning towards Charlie. Mr. Olivander tells us something to the effect of "you'll never get as good results with another wizard's wand" because of the whole "wand choosing the wizard" thing. I personally think that this concept it really fascinating and probably a lot more important than we realize. (Think GoF =)) I would love to know a lot more about it. But at the moment, all we really have to go on is Mr Olivander's comment. *Any* wand will work for you, but your wand is the best for channeling your magical power. "Your wand" being the wand that chose you. So if you were trying to perform a ridiculously complicated piece of magic, for example, the Patronus charm, the results you would get with a wand not your own wouldn't be *as good.* But the difference probably doesn't show itself in very simple bits of magic. Considering that Ron was only in his 2nd year, he probably hadn't encountered too many very complicated charms that would have manifested this difference. But I do find it quite odd that there are no spare wands lying around a place like Hogwarts. -Laura From Dionysos at Dionysia.org Thu Apr 24 21:19:52 2003 From: Dionysos at Dionysia.org (Dan Delaney) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:19:52 -0400 Subject: Astronomy DEPARTMENT? (was: Snape's special title) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <7CCC3F10-769A-11D7-80AB-000A27E2A402@dionysia.org> No: HPFGUIDX 56079 On Thursday, April 24, 2003, at 04:57 PM, Gomes Moor wrote: > does anyone have any idea about why Snape is the only member of > Hogwarts' staff who is called "master"? Good question. I wish I knew the answer ;o) But since you brought up that particular passage, there is something else in it that I always wondered about: > She was talking to Professor Sinistra of the Astronomy department. There's an entire DEPARTMENT for Astronomy? Just how many astronomy teachers are there? As far as I can tell, none of the other subjects have entire departments. Throughout all of the books (and that whole passage is a good example) it always refers to only ONE teacher for each subject. I've never read, for instance, of any other Transfiguration teachers besides McGonagal, or Charms teachers besides Flitwick (sp?). It seams like she should have written: "She was talking to Professor Sinistra, the Astronomy teacher." Peculiar. --Dan From waters_law at yahoo.com Thu Apr 24 20:59:35 2003 From: waters_law at yahoo.com (waters_law) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 20:59:35 -0000 Subject: percy and penelope's role in all this Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56080 I'm still trying to decide -- is Percy all he appears? Can we trust him, or is his ambition steering him toward the DE's? I think he is like all the Weasleys good at heart, but I think it would be easy for someone as pompous as Percy to be used by LV. And this brings me to the issue of Penelope Clearwater. Why was she with Hermione when they were petrified in CoS? Harry and Ron believed her to be coming from the Slytherin common room when they were polyjuiced into "Crabbe" and "Goyle". Is she involved with Slytherin and particularly, is she manipulating Percy? Remember, Harry and Ron also found Percy wandering in the area of Slytherin's commons. Were Percy and Penelope just looking for a good quiet place to get cozy together or is something up? "Waters Law" From ash at ryoshuu.com Thu Apr 24 21:41:25 2003 From: ash at ryoshuu.com (Ash Hardister) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:41:25 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's special title In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56081 Hi! *waves to everyone* This is my first post. Hopefully not my last. Gomes Moor: > I'm delurking for a minute just to ask you: does anyone > have any idea about why Snape is the only member of > Hogwarts' staff who is called "master"? It's been my impression that the distinction comes from Snape's duties at the school that extend beyond teaching Potions classes. Eg. when Snape was called upon to make the Mandrake potion in CoS (ch9), or the Wolfsbane in PoA. In my mind, the fact he's the Potions professor is separate from his title as Potions master, though it's only logical that he's both. -Ash From grosich at nyc.rr.com Thu Apr 24 22:08:43 2003 From: grosich at nyc.rr.com (Gina R Rosich) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 18:08:43 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's special title In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56082 On 4/24/03 5:37 PM, "erisedstraeh2002" had this to say: > Gomes Moor wrote: > >> > Does anyone have any idea about why Snape is the only member of >> > Hogwarts' staff who is called "master"? > > Now me: > > That's an excellent question, and I haven't a clue what the answer > is, but I can think of two other instances off the top of my head > where Snape is referred to as the potions master - once by Snape > himself, and once by Lockhart: > > Snape, after Lockhart says he can whip up the Mandrake draught to > revive Mrs. Norris: "Excuse me,' said Snape icily, 'but I believe I > am the Potions master at this school.'" (Ch. 9, CoS). > > and Lockhart at the duelling club: "Now I don't want any of you > youngsters to worry - you'll still have your Potions master when I'm > through with him, never fear!" (Ch. 11, CoS). > > > ME: In PoA, when Snape has the Marauders map, he refers to himself as the ?master of this school.? And, of course, in PS/SS, there is the chapter entitled the Potions Master. The only other time we hear the word ?master? is when Snape refers to Dumbledore as Headmaster. So, I do think it must have something to do with level of accomplishment and perhaps school title. After all, McGonagall is Deputy Headmistress. And Dumbledore, McGonagall and Snape seem to be the top 3 in the school, stepping in when things get serious. Gina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From JessaDrow at aol.com Thu Apr 24 22:12:48 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 18:12:48 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron's Wand Message-ID: <7e.3825ce0d.2bd9bb60@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56083 In a message dated 4/24/03 6:08:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, metslvr19 at yahoo.com writes: > But I do find it quite odd that there are no spare wands lying around > a place like Hogwarts. > Could it have been that Dumbledore was trying to punish Ron by making work with a faulty wand? Hopefully that would get into his and Harry's thick head that breaking the rules isn't wise? ~Faith~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From metslvr19 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 24 22:15:18 2003 From: metslvr19 at yahoo.com (Laura) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 22:15:18 -0000 Subject: I love Theories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56084 TheValk wrote: > > > A further point of interest. Note that in the first book James wand was purported to be mahogany pliable and excellent for transfiguration. James was a graceful and magical animagus and his wand dictated that he would be. If we are to presume that anyone of the Hogwarts students we know will become animagi we should probably take a look at their wands for a clue. It wont be Ron his is Willow. PoA chapter four. > > > I'm wondering where you're coming to this conclusion. As far as I can tell in canon, it is primarily the magical substance within the wand that is of importance. Also, just because Jame's mahogany wand was good for Transfiguration does not mean that that is the *only* type of wand good for that subject. Although it does raise the interesting question of what role the wood plays in the effictiveness of the wand. Each time we hear of a wand (as Mr. Olivander remembers every wand he ever sold) we are given 4 pieces of information: it's length, "feel", wood, and magical substance. For example, Harry is 11 inches, suppple, holly and phoenix feather. ("Feel" being described with words such as "swishy," "bendy," and "supple.") We know the magical substance is important, but do we have any indication of the importance of the other characteristics of the wand? On a side note, I can't resist. I was looking up Harry's wand in PS to check on the length, and just a few paragraphs before them mention Lily's and James's wands. We are told of everything but the magical subtance in these wands. Curious. Very curious. =) -Laura Lots of speculation about wands today... From byujava at yahoo.com Thu Apr 24 22:13:28 2003 From: byujava at yahoo.com (Kirsten Gilson) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 15:13:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] percy and penelope's role in all this In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030424221328.21927.qmail@web41303.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56085 --- waters_law wrote: > I'm still trying to decide -- is Percy all he > appears? Can we trust > him, or is his ambition steering him toward the > DE's? I think he is > like all the Weasleys good at heart, but I think it > would be easy for > someone as pompous as Percy to be used by LV I've wondered this myself, but I really see it more with the three different camps: (1) Dumbledore's supporters (2) Volde's supporters (3) Fudge's supporters I think Percy will be so driven to do well with the Ministry that he will be against Dumbledore's and Harry's side, but not in favor of Volde. Of course, that will help Volde, but you do bring up very interesting comments about Penelope and the fact that they were around the Slytherin area. Kirsten __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From trinity61us at yahoo.com Thu Apr 24 22:22:18 2003 From: trinity61us at yahoo.com (alex fox) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 15:22:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ron's Wand WAS Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry, Errol and Mrs. Norris In-Reply-To: <003a01c30a9a$bb0f4f90$72ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: <20030424222218.73192.qmail@web14905.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56086 Kelly Grosskreutz: In a way, it's a good thing that Ron broke his first wand, since the wand was originally someone else's. Now he has a wand that has chosen him. He might have lost out in his second year, but what he missed in that year may arguably be made up quickly simply because he is using his own tailored wand --------- Yes (Snipping massivly)Ron was never good at anything! Scabbers? Yellow? But he is not exactly a Hermione, now is he? Not to go off onto the musician/magical thing again, but he and most of his family (within his age group) are not the most Sharp knives in the drawer.Gred and Forge are brilliant in their own ways, but has Ron ever done anything magical that put him above the rest? He was probably lucky to get the wand of Charlie. The older boys are ,of course, brilliant. By the way,does anyone know what Ron's new wand is made of? I dont remember. Alex Fox Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Frontsiderocker at msn.com Thu Apr 24 22:26:16 2003 From: Frontsiderocker at msn.com (Mark Hewitt) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:26:16 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's special title Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56087 Moor said,.. >I'm delurking for a minute just to ask you: does anyone >have any idea >about why Snape is the only member of Hogwarts' staff >>who is called >"master"? Me,.. It seems to me that potions is the most complex form of practical-(well all magic is magical but you know what I mean) There are many occurances throughout the books where particular wizards-(Lupin for example) support the fact that Snapes work is of a compicated nature. Snape does possess powerful intellect-He has a firm grasp of logic-(apparently rare in the wizarding world) Perhaps logic is one of the fundemental blocks of which potion making is based on?-(Hermione has also shown this skill-picked up from her muggle upbringing-which also begs the question-Is Snape a pure blooded wizard?) Frontsiderocker _________________________________________________________________ Surf together with new Shared Browsing http://join.msn.com/?page=features/browse&pgmarket=en-gb&XAPID=74&DI=1059 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ivanova at idcnet.com Thu Apr 24 22:41:05 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:41:05 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ages References: <20030424221328.21927.qmail@web41303.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002b01c30ab2$97ebdf20$6dccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 56088 Lots of discussion has been made about Hermione's age and just when a person gets to enter Hogwarts. It just made me think about the whole thing, and I remembered the bit in GoF about who turned 17 when. Fred and George are in their sixth year in GoF. They do not turn seventeen until April. Another person (Angelina?) said that she could enter because she had just had her 17th birthday. So it would appear that sixth year students have their 17th birthday sometime during the year. Tracing that backwards, using that logic, students would be expected to turn 12 during their first year of Hogwarts. However, as far as we know, they turn 11 that year. Just another thing to throw into this discussion. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From drednort at alphalink.com.au Thu Apr 24 22:59:57 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 08:59:57 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The timeline on the DVD *confirms* canon; In-Reply-To: <20030424142154.29521.qmail@web14506.mail.yahoo.com> References: <1051120335.8314.21194.m14@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <3EA8F90D.16447.42A6F85@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 56089 On 25 Apr 2003 at 0:21, rosi wrote: > rosi: > I must say that I have to agree with Ali. I was > accelerated twice when I was in school and during that > time I was constantly taunted because of it. Even now, > in university, I still get some jokes about it. If > Hermione was/is accelerated a year, I think that we > would have been told about it. Or, at least the other > kids in her grade would have said *something* (they > can't have not noticed it, really!). Actually, they can, and they do. I know of numerous cases where kids have been accelerated and nobody in their classes is aware of it. Certainly, most of the time people work it out, even if they are not told - but by no means all of the time. I've even encountered one case where a boy was accelerated 3 years and nobody picked up on it until he was 14, and in his final year of high school - it came out then because people asked why he wasn't going for his learners permit as a driver. As you're aware, some kids do get teased over this - and so some kids are told and helped to keep it quiet. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "Almighty Ruler of the all; Whose power extends to great and small; Who guides the stars with steadfast law; Whose least creation fills with awe; Oh grant thy mercy and thy grace; To those who venture into space." From metslvr19 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 24 23:05:17 2003 From: metslvr19 at yahoo.com (Laura) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:05:17 -0000 Subject: So much for spoilers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56090 Dicentra spectabilis wrote: > > > I found this on Book Magazine online (http://www.bookmagazine.com/archive/issue10/potter.shtml) It was written in May/June 2000, right before the release of GoF. At the end of the article there are a bunch of "spoilers." Check these out: > > > Devika wrote: > > > This is great! I've always thought that we should make a record of all of the rumors and serious speculation about OoP so that we can check it afterwards to see how much of it actually came true the way we thought it would. At the very least, I think it would be entertaining. I had forgotten a lot of the speculation for GoF, so I'm glad you found this. > > > Me: You've just completely changed my mind. =) Before I couldn't resist a peak at some of the OotP spoilers and was so mad at myself afterwards. Now I'm going to go find them and make a list. =) > > > * The first truly evil female character makes her debut. > > > I think that might be a misprint or an exaggeration or just a plain old mistake. Obviously, we're all thinking of a number of pssobilities. I seriously doubt the credibility of that if we aren't given a view of just *how* evil this evil female is, since no one can say for sure who it is. It seems rather weak that we're told that "one of the female characters introduced in GoF is truly evil." and then not given a clearly evil character. If they're talking about Mrs. Lestrange, well, she had a very small part in GoF, didn't she? I would bet she has a pretty large role in the series as a whole, but only JKR knows that for sure, and I don't think she wrote these spoilers. So it seems odd that they mentioned such a small part...oh well, I'm done rambling. =) > > > * There will be a number of deaths, including that of one character readers have grown to love. Rowling has said Voldemort will be shown not as a mere pantomime villain, but as a truly evil entity. Only by the killing of someone that readers care about, she says, does one get a sense of how evil it is to extinguish a human life.* > > > As others have said, Cedric, Bertha, Frank, Crouch Sr. That's 4 deaths. And the one we have grown to love is Cedric. He's a minor character in the first 3 novels, but I think we grow to love him *within* GoF. He's rather friendly, he is bothered by his dad's extreme pride/rudeness towards Harry, he helps Harry with the Egg Clue, and by the end of the book I think we see him as a really nice, really decent guy. He argues with Harry for a full page about who should take the Triwizard Cup. He tells Harry that he (Harry) deserves it more than he (Cedric) does. < < < But Cedric didn't move. He merely stood there, looking at Harry. Then he turned to stare at the cup. Harry saw the longing expression on his face in its golden light. He stepped over the spider's legs to join Harry, who stared at him. Cedric was serious. He was walking away from the sort of glory Hufflepuff House hadn't seen in centuries. "Go on," Cedric said. He looked as though this was costing him every once of resolution he had, but his face was set, his arms were folded, he seemed decided. < < < GoF, Chapter 31: The Third Task, p.632-634 US paperback edition) I know that made me like the guy a whole lot more. Very noble. Reading his death hurts. Take a step back from all the calculating we do here, all the speculation and analyzing. And read it as just a story. The kid was killed. Just because he sort of got in the way. While we're on the topic, do the same thing with PS. I hadn't read it in a long time, and I went back to read it just after finishing GoF and reading all about LV and realizing just how evil he is. (I tend to read them in random order, whichever I feel like reading at the time) Just read the first chapter. About Lily and James Potter being killed. The first time I read the book, I sort of glossed over it. You know, the classic Rohald Dahl move of an orphan. This time it brought me almost to tears. -Laura From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Thu Apr 24 23:17:50 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 00:17:50 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The timeline on the DVD *confirms* canon; References: <20030424.150455.-948875.0.emeleel@juno.com> Message-ID: <3EA8709E.000001.17153@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 56091 Melanie wrote - Is there any possibility in the English system of having skipped the equivelant of American Kindergarten? When I started school (I am now 31) Kindergarten was not mandatory. When my mom when to register me for school, all the K classes were filled, so I was put directly into 1st grade. (And as it was, I was bored the first two weeks!) I never skipped any grades after that although I was sorely tempted to try for it, but I was still always the youngest person in my classes. Now me - I don't have kids myself so I may be mistaken but afaik nursery (kindergarten) isn't compulsory in the UK either, in fact I think there are less places available than parents who want to enrol their kids. But I can't see that that would make a difference - the school starting age is five regardless of whether you've been to nursery or not. (it is 5 isn't it?) While there are rare exceptions of children starting early in the UK it's highly unusual so there are two options that I can see - 1, Hermione went to Hogwarts straight from year (oh Merlin, they've changed them since I was at school) uh I think it's year 5, what we used to call 3rd year juniors anyway the penultimate year of primary school; or 2, she was at a prep school, or the junior section of a larger public school, Her parents are middle class and as dentists probably fairly well off so it's possible they wanted the best money could buy for their little girl so they sent her to a public school. K From ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com Thu Apr 24 23:18:15 2003 From: ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com (ingachristsuperstar) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:18:15 -0000 Subject: Ages In-Reply-To: <002b01c30ab2$97ebdf20$6dccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56092 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly Grosskreutz" < ivanova at i...> wrote: > Lots of discussion has been made about Hermione's age and just when a person gets to enter Hogwarts. It just made me think about the whole thing, and I remembered the bit in GoF about who turned 17 when. Fred and George are in their sixth year in GoF. They do not turn seventeen until April. Another person (Angelina?) said that she could enter because she had just had her 17th birthday. So it would appear that sixth year students have their 17th birthday sometime during the year. Tracing that backwards, using that logic, students would be expected to turn 12 during their first year of Hogwarts. However, as far as we know, they turn 11 that year. Just another thing to throw into this discussion. > > Kelly Grosskreutz > http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova/ If we combine what we know about Hermione's birthday and Angelina's birthday, then the cut-off date to enter Hogwarts in a given school year is sometime between Hermione's birthday (Sept. 17?) and Angelina's which is a week before Halloween. This would make Angelina one of he oldest in her year and Hermione one of the youngest in her's. So, someone would turn 11 in their first year if they were born before whatever date it is (late Sept - mid-October) and 12 if they were born after this. Where I went to grade school the cut-off was October 1st, so this makes sense to me. I guess the Wizard World is as strange as Nova Scotia. -Ing From bard7696 at aol.com Thu Apr 24 23:22:30 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:22:30 -0000 Subject: Ron's Wand WAS Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry, Errol and Mrs. Norris In-Reply-To: <20030424222218.73192.qmail@web14905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56093 Alex asked: but has Ron ever done anything magical that put him above the rest? He was probably lucky to get the wand of Charlie. The older boys are ,of course, brilliant. By the way,does anyone know what Ron's new wand is made of? I dont remember. > Second question first. I seem to remember his new wand being willow with a single unicorn hair. I THINK it was 14 inches, but I am not at home right now, so I'm not sure. Ron's shining magical moment so far -- I think -- has been the Wingardium Leviosa bit to save Hermione from the troll in PS/SS. But, I do have to give ickle Ronnekins some credit for being a gutsy kid. He was all set broken leg and all, to help fight Sirus Black. Darrin -- Been gone all day. Forgotten how these posts can pile up. From bard7696 at aol.com Thu Apr 24 23:29:32 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:29:32 -0000 Subject: Snape's special title In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56094 FSR: > It seems to me that potions is the most complex form of practical-(well all > magic is magical but you know what I mean) There are many occurances > throughout the books where particular wizards-(Lupin for example) support > the fact that Snapes work is of a compicated nature. Snape does possess > powerful intellect-He has a firm grasp of logic-(apparently rare in the > wizarding world) Perhaps logic is one of the fundemental blocks of which > potion making is based on?-(Hermione has also shown this skill-picked up > from her muggle upbringing-which also begs the question-Is Snape a pure > blooded wizard?) > I think the explanation I like the best is that Snape has other duties besides teaching, that he is responsible for potions made at the school, for medical or practical reasons. (If Dumbledore decided he needed a Polyjuice potion for some reason, it would be Snape.) Also, something that was tossed about last year was whether Snape is kind of a research professor, which explains why he seems to hate teaching. The little bastards take him away from what he really wants to do, find ways to cure werewolves, vampires, etc... I think the Snape is a vampire, just as Snape is Muggle-born, Snape is an outcast, Snape was picked on at Hogwarts, etc... all come from fanfic contamination. Until canon gives us another Slytherin (besides Tom Riddle) who is not pureblood, I am going to have to be convinced that one of them is not pureblood. After all, there is essence of old Salazar in that Sorting Hat, remember, and he didn't like Muggle-borns. Riddle was a descendant of Slytherin AND renounced all Muggle-hood. Darrin -- Bastards, Werewolves and Vampires, oh my From jgates at eddinc.com Thu Apr 24 23:09:27 2003 From: jgates at eddinc.com (jlg881) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:09:27 -0000 Subject: Harry & Lord Voldemort's Wands Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56095 Hello everyone! I need your help. I am having a "disagreement" with my son about Harry's and LV's wands. My son says that since Harry and LV's wands share the core from the same phoenix that their wands are the same. Now I come back with "No two Ollivander wands are the same, just as no two unicorns, dragons, or phoenixes are quite the same." PS/SS pg 84 US edition. But Billy says that the phoenix is the same and I said yes but the wood is different. LV's wand is made of yew and is 13.5" long. Harry's wand is made of holly and is 11" long. Billy said that didn't matter it is the magical core that matters. Now I will tell you that Billy only has access to the HP books, as he is currently a guest of the Illinois Dept of Corrections, so he does not have access to the web or email but I am trying to keep his mind active and this is one way we have chosen to do it. Please help me win this "disagreement" with my son. As I have told him I was doing this he is really excited to find out what you have to say. I will read everything to him over the phone that you guys post and any direct quotes from the books he can look at and I will send his answers back to you. Your help is greatly appreciate. Jean This is my first post and I hope I have done it correctly. From amani at charter.net Fri Apr 25 01:49:36 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 21:49:36 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ages References: <20030424221328.21927.qmail@web41303.mail.yahoo.com> <002b01c30ab2$97ebdf20$6dccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: <00a201c30acc$ee47e0c0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56096 Kelly: Lots of discussion has been made about Hermione's age and just when a person gets to enter Hogwarts. It just made me think about the whole thing, and I remembered the bit in GoF about who turned 17 when. Fred and George are in their sixth year in GoF. They do not turn seventeen until April. Another person (Angelina?) said that she could enter because she had just had her 17th birthday. So it would appear that sixth year students have their 17th birthday sometime during the year. Tracing that backwards, using that logic, students would be expected to turn 12 during their first year of Hogwarts. However, as far as we know, they turn 11 that year. Just another thing to throw into this discussion. Me: How is it "as far as we know" that they turn 11 that year? Harry turned 11 /after/ everyone else in the year did. As I have a June birthday, I'm familiar with it. He'll be one of the youngest of his class. Everyone will be turning 12 throughout their first year at Hogwarts, Harry just only gets to turn 12 /after/ his first year. (I know the feeling. I never get my birthday on the announcements. ^_~) --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From suzchiles at pobox.com Fri Apr 25 02:13:52 2003 From: suzchiles at pobox.com (Suzanne Chiles) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 19:13:52 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: ADMIN: New OOP: prefix and spoiler policy In-Reply-To: <20030424181310.8978.qmail@web14208.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56097 Tyler said: > However, I am concerned about people (like myself) who > are subscribed to this list in digest form. Digest > form, for those who dont know, compiles several posts > into one long e-mail message. This is to avoid having > your mailbox clogged with hundreds of individual posts > (I receive 2-4 HPFGU digests on a typical day, each > containing about 10-25 individual posts). A good point, Tyler. I think it might also be a problem for those who read the list on Yahoo. Before I started sending the mail to my personal email address, I did read it off the web, and found the only way to read it was to bring up the whole list and just keep hitting next. If you try to do otherwise, it's almost impossible to use. Which is why I started getting it through the mail. One way that I deal with so many messages is to create a folder just for this list in my Inbox folder (Microsoft Outlook). Then I wrote a rule that sends all the messages for that list to that folder. It makes it somewhat easier to deal with many individual messages. I'll be happy to help anyone who uses Outlook or Outlook Express set this up if help is needed. (I actually wrote the online help for Outlook Express, so I kind of know what I'm doing ;-)) Off line, of course. Apologizing in advance if this is off-topic. Suzanne, the tech writer From suzchiles at pobox.com Fri Apr 25 02:16:58 2003 From: suzchiles at pobox.com (Suzanne Chiles) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 19:16:58 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron's Wand In-Reply-To: <1e2.77e74f3.2bd9b063@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56098 I believe the reference is to the dueling tournament in CoS. Suzanne Faith said: > > I don't think theres much use for wands in potion class in any case. > From william.truderung at sympatico.ca Fri Apr 25 02:21:40 2003 From: william.truderung at sympatico.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 02:21:40 -0000 Subject: The Living Philosopher's Stone (Was: Re: The Spiritual Symbolism of HP) In-Reply-To: <20030424203633.45876.qmail@web21507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56099 After posting about the previous posts about Harry as the `Living Philosopher's Stone, I went back and read all of them. The following is a condensed version of the main points raised in that discussion. Many of these posts have been shortened from the originals, but the gist is included. I hope that this is useful in this discussion. Bill ****** #38511 - cmf_usc I am one of the few (heck, maybe I'm the *only* one) who believes that Harry's Big Bangy secret is that he is a living embodiment of the philosopher's stone. (This is all based on an alchemical interpretation of the symbols that surround Harry; stag, phoenix, lion, serpent, color green, red, etc. I could go into great detail but I'll restrain myself :--) Not that he's necessarily immortal, but that he holds within his being the potential for eternal life if properly activated. Anyway, if I'm right, I think that Harry will be making the choice to renounce at least this part of his powers. I think this whole plot idea would really tie the series together; Harry would have grown to understand life & death to the point that he would choose to make the same decision (we assume) Flamel made in SS. I think I remember JKR saying somewhere (sorry can't remember citation) that you could sum up the theme of the series as facing up to death. And my theory would *really* make Harry the anti-Voldemort; he would choose to freely give up that which V. has spent his life seeking in terribly evil ways. Caroline #38515 - cindysphynx Oooh! My inner Bang is seriously warming to this idea! Caroline, I think you could well be on to something with this. "Stoned Harry" -- it works for me! I think I want in on the ground floor of this burgeoning movement. Actually, the idea that Harry has the potential for eternal life explains a lot of canon mysteries. It explains why Dumbledore seems not to be troubled by Harry's rule-breaking. It explains why the DEs couldn't curse fleeing Harry. It explains why Harry was stronger than Voldemort in the duel. It explains why Harry was able to survive his duel with the Basilisk. I've never been entirely comfortable with the wobbly explanation for Harry's unique ability to survive AK -- that his mothers' love was so unique that it protected him, and AbsentMinded!Voldemort forgot all about this. It also goes a ways toward explaining why Dumbledore is so secretive about Harry's past. After all, Dumbledore can hardly walk up to Harry and tell him that the good news is that Harry is immortal, but the bad news is that he has to sacrifice this to save the wizarding world. That would be a bit of a bummer, to say the least. Answer me this, though. Where did Stoned Harry's potential for eternal life come from? Is it embodied in his scar? Does it have something to do with parseltongue, do you think? Is it related to the analysis of alchemy you mentioned (which I don't remember so you might have to repeat)? Hmmm. If we figure this one out, we can practically write the end of Book 7, now can't we? Um, or at least, I think we can. I know one thing for sure, though. There is going to have to be a *seriously* Big catalyst for Harry to make this huge sacrifice; no way is he just going to slowly mull it and quietly screw up his nerve to to lay down his life. Cindy (who thinks Caroline is well on the way to figuring out the Big and Bangy Climactic Book 7 scene in which Harry chooses to make the ultimate sacrifice like a certain famous Biblical figure) #38542 - cmf_usc Stoned Harry! I love it! ::rustles papers importantly:: Ok, here goes. The proof behind the theory. I've got charts. (shame they aren't on disk, it's easier to follow that way.) I've got citations to a reference book. And, oh yeah, some canon too. *All interpretations of symbols taken from The Dictionary of Symbols, pub. by Penguin, 1994* First, the alchemists started the whole idea of a person *becoming* a philosopher's stone, through some spiritual process; it was one of the things they were into, along with turning metal into gold & developing an elixir of immortality. I don't think it's too far- fetched that JKR might take this fact & twist it into her story; she's done that with other stuff, right? So. The alchemists believed that Mercury + Sulphur = Philosopher's stone. JKR's planted *lots* of symbols around Harry that relate to these two elements. Things associated, alchemically, with sulphur: stag, phoenix, color red, lion With mercury: color green, serpent, unicorn In art, the alchemists showed the creation of the philosopher's stone as a stag & unicorn coming together in a forest. So, I figure James + Lily = living Philosopher's stone (I, for one, will be looking for hints that Harry was conceived in the forbidden forest :--) We know *as canonical fact* that the stag is related to James. If you'd like to go with the heir of Gryffindor combo meal, you can add the color red & the lion. We know *as canonical fact* that the color green is related to Lily (and that it'll be important.) I don't think adding the unicorn is too much of a stretch: unicorn = purity; lily = purity; willow (like in her wand) = purity. And if you want to super-size that combo, you can add that Lily was an heir of Slytherin (remember the wording in CoS was a "deliberate error," JKR says), and that Harry inherited the Parseltongue (serpent connection) through her. There. Bangy enough for you? Complicated enough? That's why I really like this theory, actually. I think it's JKR's style. Plus it would provide the series with a real sense of continuity. Cindy wrote: >>I've never been entirely comfortable with the wobbly explanation for Harry's unique ability to survive AK -- that his mothers' love was so unique that it protected him, and AbsentMinded!Voldemort forgot all about this.<< Me, too. In fact, I went through SS & CoS pretty carefully to see where that whole theory came from. And it's not Dumbledore that tells us this: it's Harry, when he's talking to Riddle in the chamber. Dumbledore only says "Your mother died to save you." And this is in answer to the question "Why couldn't Quirrell touch me?", (SS p. 299) not `how did I survive?' I figure this can be interpreted as, Lily died in the attempt to save Harry, but that's not necessarily why he lived. (And I also am quite suspicious that we only have Crouch/Moody's word for it that Harry has survived AK. Maybe V. was up to something completely different that night?) Caroline (Bonus tidbit: Another word for the Philosopher's stone is cinnabar: this means dragon's blood in Persian. Remind anyone of a certain chocolate frog card??) #38543 - Katze I'm also a believer that there's more to Harry surviving the AK curse than the excuse that Lily saved him with her love. Why would it only work for her, and never anyone else? It's ancient magic, that apparently one of the most ruthless wizards has forgotten. Wouldn't you think that with all of V's killing people would do anything to protect their loved ones - like learning ancient magic? I just think that if this were really the case, many more people would've survived the AK curse. I love this theory that Harry's the living stone. He also wouldn't actually have to die an early death defeating V either - just give up his immortality, like Flamel did by destroying the stone. Flamel gave up his immortality, because it was the right thing to do to destroy the stone. This way no one else would have the chance to use it to become immortal. If Harry is the living stone, then V will need him to become immortal, and if Harry gave up his immortality, than V will have lost out in that particular venture. #38546 - cindysphynx Katze wrote: >>I love this theory that Harry's the living stone. He also wouldn't actually have to die an early death defeating V either - just give up his immortality, like Flamel did by destroying the stone.<< Oh. Oh my. Oh, I don't *like* having Harry just surrender his immortality. I mean, where's the Bang there? He just kind of nods when he realizes the sacrifice he must make, maybe with his eyes tearing up a bit? Ron and Hermione just kind of shrug back at him, because, hey, he gets to live out the rest of his life just like they do, so where's the tragedy in his forfeiture of immortality? It also allows Hagrid (who will die in OoP) and Lupin (who will die in Book 7) to steal Harry's thunder and seriously upstage him. Also, and lean in close for this bit, but I didn't care much when Flammel forfeited immortality. It was kind of dull. I mean, he wasn't really entitled to immortality, and I didn't get the sense that Flammel was doing anything special with it, after all. I mean, I hardly miss the guy. So when Harry forfeits immortality, he can't be around to live a normal wizarding lifespan. He has to Meet His Maker *right then.* Ah, come on. Wouldn't it be better (with "better" being defined as infinitely more Big) to have Harry make the Ultimate Sacrifice and take Voldemort out with him? Cindy (who wants Harry to tangle with Voldemort on a rickety catwalk high over a river of molten lava or something else really, really visual) #38547 - Laura Huntley In response to Caroline's Stoned theory and all her marvelous information aboutmercury, sulfur, etc in the role of alchemy: Oh, yes, yes, YES!! I love it. Perfect. Why didn't I think of it? *is quite cross with herself* Cindy said: >>It also goes a ways toward explaining why Dumbledore is so secretive about Harry's past. [...] Answer me this, though. Where did Stoned Harry's potential for eternal life come from? Is it embodied in his scar? Does it have something to do with parseltongue, do you think? Is it related to the analysis of alchemy you mentioned (which I don't remember so you might have to repeat)?<< And Caroline said: >>In art, the alchemists showed the creation of the philosopher's stone as a stag & unicorn coming together in a forest. So, I figure James + Lily = living Philosopher's stone (Bonus tidbit: Another word for the Philosopher's stone is cinnabar: this means dragon's blood in Persian. Remind anyone of a certain chocolate frog card??)<< *nearly fall out of her chair in excitement* Meep! Dumbledore, discovering the (12) uses of dragon's blood! What if there's really a 13th use, in which Dumbledore discovered a procedure to create a living philosopher's stone!! Perhaps Trelawney's first prediction was that a Dark Lord with the power of immortality would rise, and a Light Lord with the same power would be needed to defeat him?? So *viola*! Dumbledore helps *create* baby Harry (perhaps magically altering him during Lily's pregnancy or arranging some kind of ritual at his conception -- I don't know) to fight the coming Dark Lord. Perhaps this is why he first started looking into alchemy and dragon's blood to begin with. Oooo...what if Dumbledore created TOM RIDDLE with the potential for immortality because of the prediction about a Dark Lord Trelawney or whomever made (thinking that *Tom* would be the Light Lord), and then was forced to create Harry to fulfill the prophecy and undo the damage he had caused. You know -- a younger Dumbledore, not yet the all-wise, benevolent leader we know today -- but a headstrong man with a buckload of power. He had good *intentions* in creating Riddle -- he wanted to stop this "Dark Lord" from taking over. But he tinkered with the balance of the universe in doing so, and was therefore punished and obligated to perform the terrible magic that made Tom once more -- in order to prevent the fruits of his stupidity and vanity from taking over the world. It was the evil he could inherently see in his creation, young Tom -- even before Tom actually realized it himself, that made him wary of Tom when all the other Hogwarts teachers loved him -- he was suspicious of the hatred he sensed in the boy he made to be a *savior* (wow, that sounds really Star Wars). It's why he goes to so much trouble to help those directly harmed by Tom (Hagrid) and forgive those who let themselves be led into evil by Tom (Snape). It's why he takes such an interest in James and Lily, because he sees in them the potential that he saw in Riddle's parents to create a Living Stone (geez..sort of sounds like a Living Horus..falcon..phoenix..nah.). My guess is that you need the right people and then you need all sort of potions, charms, and the like (some of which use dragon's blood). A very complicated, difficult procedure, anyway. Probably with lots of sacrifice on the parts of all involved. And don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to propose an Evil!Dumbledore here. What I'm proposing is a Dumbledore who made a grave mistake when he was younger and is now desperately trying to make up for it. It's *why* he's the amazingly kind, beneficent person we know today. He's had more of his share of the kind of wrong-doing that turns one into an older, wiser person. Anyway. Do you like it? *grins enthusiastically* I've got all my can (n)ons at the ready -- fire at your own risk. ^_~ laura #38558 - ltg3asu Katze wrote: >>If Harry is the living stone, then V will need him to become immortal, and if Harry gave up his immortality, than V will have lost out in that particular venture.<< *Yikes!* If Harry is the living stone, a prospect which is becoming more and more plausible with each new wonderfully researched post, then what will Voldemort using his (Harry's) blood in the spell to create himself a new body? As the living stone, is Harry's blood comparable to the elixir of life? This, if viable, could put a whole new spin on Dumbledore's hint of a triumphant smile at the end of GoF.To me, it makes sense that by using Harry's blood, if he (Harry) is the living stone, then Voldemort may have attained immortality again. BUT! If the state Voldemort was in when he worked the spell was merely a living death, a half life as described to be possessed by those who drink unicorn's blood, then maybe Harry's life giving blood (a very Christian metaphor) canceled out the half life of Voldemort, giving him his humanity, therefore his mortality again, not simply by virtue of Harry being a mortal, but because Harry is the living stone! #38560 - Soprano Ham Hi, Katze wrote: >>If Harry is the living stone, then V will need him to become immortal, and if Harry gave up his immortality, than V will have lost out in that particular venture. My only problem with this is: how could harry give up/renounce this part of himself? How could this be done other than through death? If he died, Voldemort would still have his blood in him. It seems to me that renouncing aspects of your magical being is just as impossible as me renouncing my skin, or my lungs. Thoughts? Sop #38561 - dicentra63 Cindy responds to Katze: >>Oh, I don't *like* having Harry just surrender his immortality. I mean, where's the Bang there? He just kind of nods when he realizes the sacrifice he must make, maybe with his eyes tearing up a bit? Ron and Hermione just kind of shrug back at him, because, hey, he gets to live out the rest of his life just like they do, so where's the tragedy in his forfeiture of immortality? So when Harry forfeits immortality, he can't be around to live a normal wizarding lifespan. He has to Meet His Maker *right then.*<< Dicentra responds: Oh yes, he most definately has to die at the end. And JKR has alreadly told us how it's going down (at least I think she has). Remember when Harry and Ron were making up predictions in GoF and how Harry inadvertently predicted the three tasks? Well, the last prediction Harry made was his own beheading. And, as someone pointed out last time I pointed this out, Ron and Harry were later playing with a couple of the twins' trick wands in McGonagall's class: Harry's had turned into a rubber fish and Ron's was a tin parrot. Ron beheaded Harry's fish with his parrot. Is that Bangy or what? Not only does Harry have to die to take Voldemort out, but it will end up being by Ron's hand. (Whether it's good!Ron or evil!Ron I cannot say at this time.) And his head comes off, too! BANG! #38571 - cindysphynx OK, you guys are starting to *scare* me just a bit. I mean, it's one thing to just imagine having Harry die. Anyone can do that. I've done it many times, although not as often as I've imagined Hagrid's demise. ;-) But now you guys have found actual *canons* for Stoned!Harry! If you look closely, however, there are two additional canons for Stoned!Harry. And I promise you, once the roar of the crowd dies down, we'll need something *much* bigger than a two-man kayak to house the legions of rabid Stoned!Harry believers. Immortal Stoned!Harry, according to Dicentra, can walk on water. And, pray tell, what was the very first thing Harry saw in the teacup in his very first Divination Class? *A Cross*! It was a crooked (some might even say Old Rugged) Cross! And, my friends, what did Ron see when he looked into Harry's cup? Ah, you don't remember, do you? Let me refresh your recollection: "[T] hat looks like an animal . . . yeah, if that was its head . . . it looks like a hippo . . . no, a sheep." A sheep? A young sheep? A *lamb*, I daresay? Yes, it all adds up. Stoned!Harry is destined to die a death as a sacrifical lamb to spare others from an awful fate. A death by . . . uh . . . by decapitation. Um, maybe JKR will think better of that particular means of Harry's demise. There's still time for something a little less gruesome, I think. Caroline wrote (about Ron and Harry rising from the table together): >>And remember in PoA, when Harry and Ron got up together from the table of 13? Yep, I can see Ron bringing about Harry's death & dying right after << Well, we want to stay right on canon here, so Ron and Harry have to die *together*, not, er, sequentially. So how on earth can Ron and Harry die together, have Harry be beheaded, and have Voldemort wind up in the soup with them? Ya got me. Anyone? Cindy #38583 - abigailnus Katze wrote: >>I'm also a believer that there's more to Harry surviving the AK curse than the excuse that Lily saved him with her love. Why would it only work for her, and never anyone else? It's ancient magic, that apparently one of the most ruthless wizards has forgotten. Wouldn't you think that with all of V's killing people would do anything to protect their love ones - like learning ancient magic? I just think that if this were really the case, many more people would've survived the AK curse.<< My understanding was that it wasn't exactly the fact that Lily died shielding Harry from Voldemort, but the fact that she had a choice in the matter that protects Harry. We know that Voldemort specifically offerred Lily her life if she stepped away and let him kill the child. I don't imagine he often offered that kind of "mercy", so while there might have been many people who died shielding their children or other loved ones, they were only hastening the inevitable, as they were going to die anyway. None of them actively chose death rather than standing aside and watching their loved ones die. It's this extra level of sacrifise that protected Harry from AK, not simply the fact that his mother died before him. After all, if that were the case, Harry would also be protected by his father's death - James stayed behind and died in order to try and give Lily time to escape with Harry. However, since Voldemort was apparently going to kill James anyway (remember, he was there to kill "the last Potter"), his sacrifise doesn't protect Harry. I'm not sure exactly where I stand on Stoned!Harry (apart from the fact that it's a cool name - who needs an acronym?) I agree with, I think it was Cindy, who said that in this case the only possible resolution would be for Harry to die at the end of the series, and I just don't see that happening - it's not even a matter of JKR being lynched by fans, I just don't think she'd be so cruel to the children who love her books. I personally have always wondered if at the end of the series Harry would find himself unable to live in the WW - he's too famous, or maybe he'll step on the wrong toes at the MoM. I see him going off to see the elephant, maybe with Ron and Hermione at his side. Yes, I know, how LOTR can you get, but there's something very satisfying in the hero who saves the world but not for himself, and Tolkein managed to do it without killing Frodo off. Abigail #38589 - errolowl Quote Caroline: >>In art, the alchemists showed the creation of the philosopher's stone as a stag & unicorn coming together in a forest. So, I figure James + Lily = living Philosopher's stone If Harry is the living stone, then V will need him to become immortal, and if Harry gave up his immortality, than V will have lost out in that particular venture.<< OOOOHH Yes! Stoned! Harry is really cool, and accepting Caroline's mastery of Alchemy, the symbols are hard to refute. He *has* been consciously surrounded by the relevant elements.Harry being the living stone also gives him a viable alternative claim to `special' status, as opposed to the Heir of Gryffindor theory. (I never quite bought the bit about the [yet unheard of] prophesy of the battle of the Heirs ;-)) .but :tries to put uneasy feeling into words: why would Voldmort try to kill Harry again & again if he knew he was immortal, and thus unkillable? If one argues that he didn't know about the living stone part, then there would be no reason to go after Harry, would there? Quote Laura: >>what if Dumbledore created TOM RIDDLE with the potential for immortality because of the prediction about a Dark Lord Trelawney or whomever made(thinking that *Tom* would be the Light Lord), and then was forced to create Harry to fulfill the prophecy and undo the damage he had caused.<< but this still doesn't help in untangling anything. Even IF Dumbledore helped `create' Tom (*What* was he thinking of, mixing with the Slytherin line anyway? And why leave Tom to grow up in a muggle orphanage?), why would Tom merely have the *potential* for immortality, while Harry has it inherent at birth? Now if Harry also just has the *potential* to be immortal, he would have to go through some sort of process to gain that immortality. Quote Caroline: >>First, the alchemists started the whole idea of a person *becoming* a philosopher's stone, through some spiritual process<< Ok, so far so good. Voldy recognizes the potential and tries to eliminate Harry (though why he didn't show that urgency when he dueled Harry, I don't know). This also ties in with Dumbledore's dictum of "its our choices that make us who we are far more than our abilities". But this also means that Harry is not immortal *yet* oh dear, that seems to conflict with quite a few others in the Kayak.. Quote Cindy: >>Actually, the idea that Harry has the potential for eternal life explains a lot of canon mysteries. It explains why Dumbledore seems not to be troubled by Harry's rule-breaking. It explains why the DEs couldn't curse fleeing Harry. It explains why Harry was stronger than Voldemort in the duel. It explains why Harry was able to survive his duel with the Basilisk.<< See? now I'm confused. Harry's as vulnerable as ever!. :scratches head: Well, ok next rowing in another tangent to Dicentra's decapitation theory Quote Dicentra: >>Oh yes, he most definintely has to die at the end. And JKR has already told us how it's going down (at least I think she has). Remember when Harry and Ron were making up predictions in GoF and how Harry inadvertently predicted the three tasks? Well, the last prediction Harry made was his own beheading. And, as someone pointed out last time I pointed this out, Ron and Harry were later playing with a couple of the twins' trick wands in McGonagall's class: Harry's had turned into a rubber fish and Ron's was a tin parrot. Ron beheaded Harry's fish with his parrot. Is that Bangy or what? Not only does Harry have to die to take Voldemort out, but it will end up being by Ron's hand. (Whether it's good!Ron or evil!Ron I cannot say at this time.) And his head comes off, too! BANG!<< OMG! This really has me going!! I really like Ron..and I want Harry to live, so this sends Chills down my spine. Has there been an indepth discussion of Trelawney's predictions already? Harry and Ron do seem to unconsciously predict their own paths to a certain extent but didn't their homework cover only the next *month* ? (are we reaching too far here?). If their predictions are so on target, is Ron going to get runover by a rampaging Hippogriff? ummm, my crystal ball's gone all foggy But I looked up the 13 at dinner scene again and watched Dumbledore closely he didn't refute it!! Trelawney makes a scene, and it's McGonagall who phoo-phoos it. You'd think DD would have said something ? but not a peep out of him! IF we were to take that to really bode the future, Ron / Harry are to die before the others at the table. So who else is there? ? Dumbledore, Snape, McGonagall, Trelawney, Flitwick, Sprout, 3 other students and Hermoine. Here, Hagrid is conspicuous by his absence ? afterall, he does live on the grounds! Where is he? An unexpected prop to the Hagrid's early demise theory. Now, there's some confusion over who got up first ? Harry or Ron. Does that imply that in the climatic scene, there will be some confusion over who actually died? (depressing line of thought). It seems to me that Harry & Ron are to be in at the climax and maybe try to sacrifice for each other or something. I don't quite go all the way with the `Ron causes Harry's death' theory, though I think it's a really interesting course. This has gone on long enough, so I'll stop. Last words I don't think Hermione will let her two best friends fight over her in a triangle ? she'll think of something! - Errol (The confused soul who ended up paddling so hard in all directions that the Kayak now spins out of control in circles): glares from the rest of the crew: #38593 - Eloise Cindy: >>Immortal Stoned!Harry, according to Dicentra, can walk on water. And, pray tell, what was the very first thing Harry saw in the teacup in his very first Divination Class? *A Cross*! It was a crooked (some might even say Old Rugged) Cross! And, my friends, what did Ron see when he looked into Harry's cup? Ah, you don't remember, do you? Let me refresh your recollection: "[T] hat looks like an animal . . . yeah, if that was its head . . . it looks like a hippo . . . no, a sheep." A sheep? A young sheep? A *lamb*, I daresay? Yes, it all adds up. Stoned!Harry is destined to die a death as a sacrifical lamb to spare others from an awful fate. A death by . . . uh . . . by decapitation. Um, maybe JKR will think better of that particular means of Harry's demise. There's still time for something a little less gruesome, I think.<< Eloise: By your reasoning above, that would be...erm....crucifixion. Just how gruesome can the end of this series be? OTOH, if we're going to keep on making Christian parallels, Christ did predict the manner of his own death, according to John's gospel (12; 32), so perhaps Dicentra's right and decapitation it is. Is the Gryffindor ghost being (nearly) decapitated (and on the same date as James and Lily's deaths) significant? (There's potentially a lot of mileage in these ghosts. What *is* Nick's backstory? Myrtle's has been of great significance.) On the matter of gruesomeness, though, I won't be surprised if things do get quite bad. I guess that Book 7 will be written with older readers in mind, given what JKR has said. That would equate with Philip Pullman's readership and there's some pretty gruesome things and some pretty dark story lines in his writing. I've winced quite a few times. So have my kids. Cindy: >>Well, we want to stay right on canon here, so Ron and Harry have to die *together*, not, er, sequentially. So how on earth can Ron and Harry die together, have Harry be beheaded, and have Voldemort wind up in the soup with them? Eloise: Well, I guess we could have some kind of cataclysmic ending, where Harry dies not by a direct action of Ron's, but in a way somehow facilitated by Ron and which mercifully takes him out at the same time (we wouldn't want Ron to survive, knowing he was the agent of Harry's death, would we?). OTOH, carrying on with the parallels, if Ron somehow betrays Harry, then perhaps he could equate to Judas, who kills himself on the day of the crucifixion, although I'd be much happier (so to speak) to see Ron going down *with* Harry. The other is too much. Unless, of course, it is Evil!Ron. Ooh, er...perhaps that's what I'm arguing for. It was Ron's fake wand that decapitated Harry's. Perhaps it will be his real wand that kills Harry. Perhaps Voldemort will use Ron's wand (as his own, of course, won't work against Harry's) and in the act of killing Harry kill himself (or render himself able to be killed) by dint of whatever connection there is between them. OTOH, there's this immortality thing to contend with. I must confess, I'm getting a bit confused here. (As Dicentra pointed out the other day, I'm prone to confusion in the middle of conversations ;-) ) Now obviously, there's a lot of Christian symbolism being brought up in this thread. There's also a lot of alchemical symbolism been brought up. Immortality in the Christian sense is not the same as immortality in the Elixir of Life sense. Ooh........ I think I'm groping towards something here. Is this another of these clash of world view things? The desire for eternal (physical) life vs. the desire for eternal (spiritual) life. Something in the ' He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.' (John, 12; 25) vein? Is it Voldemort's insatiable desire for physical life which will be his undoing, whilst Harry's embracing of the 'next great adventure' which will be his salvation? (It was only when scrabbling through the Bible (twice) to find these quotes that I realised they were both from the same passage, which also has some typically Johannine Light/ Dark symbolism. Don't know if it's significant.) And surely Harry can't just die, however heroically. Even dying to rid the WW of Voldemort is anti-climactic in a sense, isn't it? I mean, it's heroic, and supremely good and all that, but in a way it's negative, it's a ridding of the world of an evil without replacing it by a positive good. Just as the Christian myth isn't complete without the Resurrection, surely the Harry Potter myth isn't complete without Harry's death (if that is what it indeed entails) bringing about some re-ordering of the WW, releasing it from the prejudice and injustice on which we have commented time and time again. ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> <"))>< <"))>< <"))>< <"))>< Eloise, apologising for the serious vein of a post masquerading under the TBAY prefix, but adding some fish just for fun. They're confused fish, note, as they're not sure which way they're supposed to be swimming. PS. Just to make it clear, my usage of the word 'myth' in relation to Christianity isn't in any way derogatory. I'm sure I don't have to say that in this forum, but I just want to be certain. #38598 - naamagatus Eloise wrote: >>Ooh........ I think I'm groping towards something here. Is this another of these clash of world view things? The desire for eternal (physical) life vs. the desire for eternal (spiritual) life. Something in the ' He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.' (John, 12; 25) vein? Is it Voldemort's insatiable desire for physical life which will be his undoing, whilst Harry's embracing of the 'next great adventure' which will be his salvation?<< More than that, in Christianity, life (eternal, redemptive life) arises *through* death. The believer gains redemption by dying with Christ and Christ's death was real. (The early Christians wrangled a lot about whether His death was real or only apparent. The orthodox view became that Jesus, as a fully human being, did indeed die). So, in Christian terms, Voldemort's refusal to die is truly the ultimate evil, since he is refusing redemption (thereby condemning himself to eternal damnation? Is eternal life without the possiblity of redemption an eternal damnation?). Naama #38599 - cindysphynx Eloise (about the means of Harry's Hideous Demise): >>By your reasong above, that would be...erm....crucifixion. Just how gruesome can the end of this series be? OTOH, if we're going to keep on making Christian parallels, Christ did predict the manner of his own death, according to John's gospel (12; 32), so perhaps Dicentra's right and decapitation it is.<< Oh, it's worse than that, Eloise. Far worse. What charm did Ron master in GoF? "[H]e used a Severing Charm on the ruff and cuffs. It worked fairly well; at least he was now lace-free, although he hadn't done a very neat job, and the edges still looked depressingly frayed . . . " Especially creepy is that Ron used a Severing Charm on the *ruff*. Sure, it wasn't perfect, but slicing off someone's head doesn't have to be perfect, does it? Need more evidence that someone is going to lose their head? What happens in PoA, I ask? How is Buckbeak to be executed? Of all the ways JKR could have chosen to kill Buckbeak, she chose *beheading*. Still not convinced? What is the thing Professor Trelawney wants Harry to see in the crystal ball during his divination exam? Yup, that's right. A beheading! A beheading from which Harry *saves* Buckbeak! Eloise: >>It was Ron's fake wand that decapitated Harry's. Perhaps it will be his real wand that kills Harry. Perhaps Voldemort will use Ron's wand (as his own, of course, won't work against Harry's) and in the act of killing Harry kill himself (or render himself able to be killed) by dint of whatever connection there is between them.<< Oh. My. Goodness! This is so perfect. Eloise, we just have to figure out how to have Harry and Ron die together -- at the same instant, and we'll be right there. Wow! Having Ron's spiffy new wand -- the wand Ron received after breaking his old wand on an adventure with Harry -- be the instrument of Harry's demise would be so darn ironic. Eloise: >>Ooh........ I think I'm groping towards something here. Is this another of these clash of world view things? The desire for eternal (physical) life vs. the desire for eternal (spiritual) life. Something in the ' He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.' (John, 12; 25) vein? Is it Voldemort's insatiable desire for physical life which will be his undoing, whilst Harry's embracing of the 'next great adventure' which will be his salvation?<< Oh, yes. I am so totally sold. Harry won't be immortal in the physical sense (where's the Bang in that?), but he will be immortal in the spiritual sense, where it really counts. That way, the people who don't want Harry to die can watch his spirit live on, while my FEATHERBOAS will be satisfied. A perfect compromise! Eloise: >>And surely Harry can't just die, however heroically. Even dying to rid the WW of Voldemort is anti-climactic in a sense, isn't it? I mean, it's heroic, and supremely good and all that, but in a way it's negative, it's a ridding of the world of an evil without replacing it by a positive good.<< I don't think I fully understand the idea that a sacrifice has to result in something good beyond the immediate benefit of the sacrifice. I mean, Lily sacrificed herself for Harry and rid the world of evil by reducing Voldemort to a noxious fume, and I don't think there was any positive good that filled the void. Maybe we can think of it as a straight downsizing? ;-) BTW, this whole discussion of Harry's beheading has made me wonder who, if anyone, we are *absolutely* confident will survive the series. My list of Survivors is actually quite short. I'm thinking that the minor teachers (Flitwick, Sprout) and McGonagall are safe. No way will JKR kill McGonagall, I think. Everyone else probably should watch their backs. Cindy (wondering how to draw some loaves to go with the fishes) #38604 - dicentra63 Dicentra points at the first can(n)on. "You've already seen this one: the Argument from Alchemy, which shows that the symbols linked to the Philosopher's Stone are also linked closely to Harry: red, green, stag, phoenix, serpent, lion, unicorn." She indicates the second: "Now there's the one from GoF, where Ron and Harry make a bunch of 'phony' predictions: Harry's last prediction is his own beheading." And a third: "And the scene later when Ron's tin parrot takes the head off Harry's rubber haddock." Four: "And the tea leaves: a cross and possibly a lamb." Five: "Yew trees. Symbols of immortality. All over the place during the graveyard scene. (We're going to ignore Eloise's protests that yews are common in British graveyards and so they Don't Count as symbols.)" Six: "One name for the Philosopher's Stone is cinnabar: Persian for dragon's blood, for which the probable orchestrator of Harry's destiny has found 12 uses." #38608 - pippin_999 Dicentra wrote: >>"And the scene later when Ron's tin parrot takes the head off Harry's rubber haddock."<< A haddock, may I remind you, is a fish! Yes, Harry's wand turned into a symbol of a major biblical figure. And speaking of that major biblical figure, weren't we just wondering why Harry had to spend *three* days unconscious in the hospital wing in PS/SS, when there was no plot reason for him to do so? Pippin #38615 - cmf_usc A few more can(n)ons to add to Dicentra's excellent list 1. Harry's holly wand . symbol of rebirth, Christ, etc. 2. The griffin of Gryffindor symbol of salvation 3. Willow and stag are both symbols of the Tree of Life 4. Willow is also a symbol of miraculous births. (And, Dicentra, I'm not too worried about Eloise's protests either. `Cause even if yews always hang about graveyards, it's still Quite Significant that yew is V's wand wood.) Errol wrote: >>:tries to put uneasy feeling into words: but..why would Voldmort try to kill Harry again & again if he knew he was immortal, and thus unkillable? If one argues that he didn't know about the living stone part, then there would be no reason to go after Harry, would there?<< There, there. Don't worry; I have an answer! Actually, I can offer two, and you can take your pick. My pet theory (Bangier, I think) is that Voldemort wasn't really trying to kill Harry that night. At least, not right away. Nope, he was Up to Something Else, trying to suck out Harry's immortality somehow. That's why there weren't swarms of DE's around when Sirius, etc. got there. That's why the death of the Potters wasn't just delegated to someone else. V. was on a personal mission that only he and Wormtail knew about. (Remember, we only have Fake!Moody's word that Harry's been AK'd!!) You don't like that one? Well, if you go with the "AK is unforgivable because it steals souls theory," AK-ing Harry would allow V. to absorb all of his powers. As to why he keeps trying: Well, that explains the gleam, you know! V. thinks now that he's got Harry's blood, he doesn't need Harry around for immortality anymore! He can just experiment on himself. So Dumbledore's gleaming `cause he realizes V. doesn't fully understand how all this stuff works. And he figures V. may leave Harry alone for a bit while trying his doomed-to-fail immortality experiments. Caroline #38618 - Eloise cindysphynx writes: >>Oh, but there is another parallel. What Biblical figure was beheaded? I think there was only one -- John the Baptist! So Harry is the sacrifical lamb, and Ron is John the Baptist, who, er . . . um, . . .<< Yeah. I was having problems there, which is why I didn't bring up John the Baptist. It did make me wonder briefly whether we should be looking at a John the Baptist parallel for Harry, rather than a Christ one, but I don't think the rest works. I mean, I can't see him wandering round the Forbidden Forest living on locusts and wild honey and dunking people in the lake. But to be serious, I don't really see Ron as a Baptist figure and the prediction is of Harry's decapitation, not Ron's. And of course if we *are* going to bring the Baptist into it, then who is Salome? Or Herodias? I know, I know....don't all shout at once.....Mrs Lestrange.....but I can't fit it together at all. OK. We seem to be rolling out ca(n)ons galore today. Want any more? In the First Task, Harry overcame a *dragon*, symbol of the Devil. In the Second Task, which is linked by Harry and Ron's predictions to the idea of drowning, he has to swim beneath the lake which could be interpreted as baptism.... I'm stuck on the Third Task. The same, of course is true for the other champions (and the friends below). I have always rather assumed that Fleur and Viktor will be Harry's allies. Now the Champions' wands. When Ollivander tests them, they all seem to emit something which reflects something about the owner. Fleur: flowers, befitting her name Viktor, the flyer: birds Cedric: smoke rings, reminiscent of the form he assumes after death And Harry's? Harry's wand, made of holly which symbolises death and resurrection and which contains a phoenix tail feather, another resurrection symbol, Harry's wand emits *wine*. I suggest we check the stability of the Big Bang and make sure all these ca(n)nons aren't pushing us too far down in the water. You know what happened to the over-armed Mary Rose, don't you? As soon as she changed course, water flooded in through the open gun-ports and she sank like a stone! Eloise #38623 - Laura Huntley Cindy said: >>Yes, it all adds up. Stoned!Harry is destined to die a death as a sacrificial lamb to spare others from an awful fate. A death by . . . uh . . . by decapitation.<< Anyway, you left out an important part of the equation if you're trying to draw parallels between Harry and Christ..Yes, Christ sacrificed his life in order to save the world...But that wasn't enough. He was then *resurrected* (rebirth...phoenix, anyone?). Without the resurrection, the cruxifiction is meaningless. So what does this mean in the context of JKR's story? Well...perhaps Harry will die -- or appear to be dead -- without taking Voldemort with him...and *then* he'll "rise again" and take V out when the Dark Lord least expects it. Errol asked: >>.but..why would Voldemort try to kill Harry again & again if he knew he was immortal, and thus unkillable? If one argues that he didn't know about the living stone part, then there would be no reason to go after Harry, would there?<< Dumbledore only created Harry for the *potential* of immortality. The same potential Tom Riddle was born with. However, the spells that UNLEASH that potential cannot be done until after birth...perhaps only Dumbledore knows them? Anyway, Volde wants to kill Harry because, in my variation of the theory, the prophecy that a Dark Lord with the potential of immortality will be defeated by a Light Lord with the same potential. Errol continues: >>Even IF Dumbledore helped `create' Tom (*What* was he thinking of, mixing with the Slytherin line anyway? And why leave Tom to grow up in a muggle orphanage?), why would Tom merely have the *potential* for immortality, while Harry has it inherent at birth?<< Remember, when Dumbledore created Tom, he was still very young and foolish and in love with his own power. He figured that by creating Tom he had done his fair share of preventing the "Dark Lord" from taking over, and he didn't have time to mess with some kid. Maybe the prophecy also specified that the Light Lord would be raise by Muggles? Anyway, it was creating Tom (and therefore, the Dark Lord in the prophecy) that was the BANG! that made Dumbledore go wise and good. Realizing that you may have doomed the world makes you responsible in a hurry. Also, under my variation on the theory, Dumbledore couldn't just choose two random people..they had to have something *special* in them (especially the mom) to make them compatible with the spells he preformed to make the baby Stoned. To your last question, either 1) they both had/have only the potential 2) perhaps Dumbledore perfected his method with Harry..or he preformed the final spell on Harry and not Tom...perhaps he didn't have the final spell formulated when Tom was made? hmm.. laura #38624 ? elfundeb Debbie approaches the destroyer with one very small additional can(n) on and requests permission of the good captain(s) to borrow and perhaps re-forge the tea leaves into a larger can(n)on by noting that: Harry sees in the tea leaves not only a crooked cross, but also the sun, both a symbol of happiness and of resurrection (isn't that why all the old churches always faced East, into the promise of the rising sun?). There it is, his death and eternal life, neatly packed into one teacup. Cindy: >>Oh. My. Goodness! This is so perfect. Eloise, we just have to figure out how to have Harry and Ron die together -- at the same instant, and we'll be right there. Wow! Having Ron's spiffy new wand -- the wand Ron received after breaking his old wand on an adventure with Harry -- be the instrument of Harry's demise would be so darn ironic.<< Simple solution, completely can(n)on-based -- Ron's wand backfires in Voldemort's hands, bringing them all down together and taking Harry's head. That would be sufficiently Bangy. Just like Lockhart stole Ron's old wand and lost his memory when the wand backfired. The old Lockhart was dead; Harry went to hell and was raised up by Fawkes the resurrection symbol; Ron served time in Purgatory moving boulders, till Harry returned to take sinners Ron and Ginny up to new life. Lockhart matches up with Voldemort rather nicely, I think: the glamour of Evil! Now for the biblical can(n)on -- three persons crucified together, Christ with two sinners, one repentant and one not. Ron, repentant, joins Harry in the next great adventure (compare "today you will be with me in Paradise" to the promise of happiness for Ron in the tea leaves after his suffering); Voldemort loses his life and goes to hell. I guess this leaves Hermione as Mary Magdalene. Debbie, who hasn't had that much fun with the Bible in a long time #38626 - ltg3asu southernscotland writes: >>I almost hate to bring this up, but there's another bit of canon. I just looked it up. "They were standing instead in a dark and overgrown graveyard; the black outline of a small church was visible beyond a large yew tree to their right." (GOF) Aside from the obvious symbolism of the small church, here's another. It is mentioned at least three times specifically, and I'll bet at least some of you caught it: The yew tree. It is said to be an ancient symbol of immortality.<< Ok, I thought at first I might have been mistaken, but no. Here it is, straight from the Lexicon: "Voldemort: yew, 13 1/2", single phoenix feather (also from Fawkes)" That's from a listing of the wands and their properties who we know about thus far. Voldemort's wand is made of yew, maybe even one that was in the cemetary...? Yew is a sign of immortality, yes, but more importantly, of death. However, Harry's wand, ("Harry Potter: holly, 11", supple, single phoenix feather(from Fawkes)") is made of Holly, another tree associated with immortality, but on a different level. Holly is an evergreen, and therefore considered symbolic of ressurection (one of the reasons it is popular at Christmas, but also from older roots in the Yule celebration). So there is HOPE! Maybe Harry's sacrifice by way of the Stoned!Harry theories won't end him up dead.... forever.... I know, magic doesn't bring people back, but this is much older magic (if magic at all) and that seems to not be held down by the same restrictions. L. Terrell Gould, III PS: Does anyone else find it curious that most of the parallels found on this site between HP and religion involve the iconography of Christianity? Is it because it is widely known? Are most of us Christian? Are we just seeing it through the dominant socially enculterated schema in western society? Pardon me. I've been studying way too much for my psych and anthro exams. I'll leave now *poof*. #38627 - catlady_de_los_angeles Lila HP wrote: >>The yew tree. It is said to be an ancient symbol of immortality.<< The yew tree is a symbol of death. Because: 1) Its berries are poisonous. 2) The English longbow was so great because it was made of yew wood which is a natural composite. 3) It is traditionally planted in churchyards on purpose to consume the buried corpses as tree fertilizer. That last point is probably the most relevant to there being a yew tree in the churchyard scene of GoF: it could be realism rather than symbolism. Oh, Eloise already said that. Eloise wrote: >>Just as the Christian myth isn't complete without the Resurrection, surely the Harry Potter myth isn't complete without Harry's death (if that is what it indeed entails) bringing about some re-ordering of the WW, releasing it from the prejudice and injustice on which we have commented time and time again.<< I speculate: the most active and heroic participants in the destruction of Voldemort were our Trio: Harry, Ron, and Hermione. Harry and Ron both having died in the struggle, Hermione is the main surviving hero, so she is chosen by acclamation to be the new Minister of Magic, and she sets energetically to setting the wizarding wizard to rights. Hopefully with some Weasleys or TAGWATCH to advise her when her acronyms are bad and should be replaced. L. Terrell Gould III wrote: >>Does anyone else find it curious that most of the parallels found on this site between HP and religion involve the iconography of Christianity?<< In addition to the fact that a tremendous amount of literature written in English involves Christianity, and JKR was influenced by literature, there also is an interview out there somewhere in which she states that she is a member of the Church of Scotland and admits that her Christian beliefs have influenced her writing. #38634 - cindysphynx Laura wrote: >>Anyway, you left out an important part of the equation if you're trying to draw parallels between Harry and Christ..Yes, Christ sacrificed his life in order to save the world...But that wasn't enough. He was then *resurrected* (rebirth...phoenix, anyone?). Without the resurrection, the cruxifiction is meaningless. So what does this mean in the context of JKR's story? Well...perhaps Harry will die -- or appear to be dead -- without taking Voldemort with him...and *then* he'll "rise again" and take V out when the Dark Lord least expects it.<< Yes, I have been a bit lax on the resurrection part of the equation, that's true. Well, we've seen two ways in which dead people come back. Not all the way back, but back enough to have dialogue. There are ghosts, and there are smoky shadows. (There might also be the Time Turner angle, but that's *way* too complicated, and JKR wouldn't *dare* dust off the Time Turner plot twist in the climactic scene in Book 7, for cryin' out loud.) Now, ghosts aren't my specialty, so forgive me if I mess this up. I get the sense, however, that ghosts and poltergeists can act on their surroundings. Throwing water balloons and such. Stealing the egg of a champion (no, Peeves didn't do this, but Filch thought he could). Shadows, on the other hand, appear not to be able to do much, although they did befuddle Voldemort for a minute, although that is probably not difficult to accomplish. I personally think the shadows in the graveyard might have put a shield charm around Harry as he fled, but I think I'm alone in that unsupported hunch. But the shadow idea would require Harry to come slithering out of someone's wand, and I don't see that happening. So . . . once Harry is beheaded over a river of molten lava, he could return as a ghost and push Voldemort down into the river, too. Theoretically, that is. Debbie wrote: >>Trying to accept this . . . well, this scenario doesn't require a *betrayal* by Ron; Voldemort could exploit Ron by some other means to get the wand -- it would still be his fault and it would still require forgiveness, right?<< Could Voldemort exploit Ron by some means to get his wand? Heck, yeah! Remember Ron's little problems shrugging off the Imperius Curse? Maybe JKR is trying to tell us something there. Perhaps Ron's destiny is to be controlled by Voldemort until the crucial moment on the catwalk. Harry might have Voldemort in a bad position, having disarmed him or whatever, and will be struggling with the difficult moral question of whether to behead the Most Evil Dark Wizard Who Ever Lived. Ron would choose that moment of hesitation to lunge at Harry, causing them both to fall to their deaths. Voldemort will rise to his feet and cackle maniacally for longer than is reasonable, only to have the Ghost of Stoned Harry . . . um . . . behead him. Hey, it could happen! Cindy (who thinks Stoned!Harry should remove the dark glasses, because they aren't fooling anyone) 38635 - Eloise Cindy quotes me: >>Eloise: And surely Harry can't just die, however heroically. Even dying to rid the WW of Voldemort is anti-climactic in a sense, isn't it? I mean, it's heroic, and supremely good and all that, but in a way it's negative, it's a ridding of And then goes on: >>I don't think I fully understand the idea that a sacrifice has to result in something good beyond the immediate benefit of the sacrifice. I mean, Lily sacrificed herself for Harry and rid the world of evil by reducing Voldemort to a noxious fume, and I don't think there was any positive good that filled the void. Maybe we can think of it as a straight downsizing? ;-)<< Laura counters with (actually, I think it may have been to an earlier post, but it's relevant here): >>Anyway, you left out an important part of the equation if you're trying to draw parallels between Harry and Christ..Yes, Christ sacrificed his life in order to save the world...But that wasn't enough. He was then *resurrected* (rebirth...phoenix, anyone?). Without the resurrection, the cruxifiction is meaningless.<< Eloise: Exactly my point. And we have all these resurrection symbols, don't we. What else are we going to do with them? Well, perhaps it wasn't exactly my point, but it was behind it. I was just trying to, well, express it in a slightly more secular manner, I suppose. But at the same time, the Resurrection is the crux (excuse the pun) of the Christian story. However orthodox or liberal your interpretation of what actually did or didn't happen, it was the event that turned around a group of dispirited, dissillusioned disciples of an apparently dead and discredited leader into a force that eventually influenced much of the course of Western history. Laura: >>So what does this mean in the context of JKR's story? Well...perhaps Harry will die -- or appear to be dead -- without taking Voldemort with him...and *then* he'll "rise again" and take V out when the Dark Lord least expects it.<< Eloise: Now that sounds like a likely plot line. No doubt Voldemort will forget something crucial in the process, as usual. Debbie rolls out yet another ca(n)non: >>Harry sees in the tea leaves not only a crooked cross, but also the sun, both a symbol of happiness and of resurrection (isn't that why all the old churches always faced East, into the promise of the rising sun?). There it is, his death and eternal life, neatly packed into one teacup.<< Eloise: Oh, yes, you're right. As a matter of interest, some of the very earliest churches used to face West, so that the celebrant faced East (S. Peter's Basilica in Rome, for one). Eastward facing was a later development. And its why Christian burials are East-West, so that at the resurrection, the first thing the believer will see is the dawn of the Saviour rising. It's also a feature of some other Eastern mystery cults, such as Mithraism, which had some very similar imagery to Christianity (Mithraeae are architecturally indistinguishable from basilican churches). And the Emperor Constantine, whose Edict of Milan in 303 and programme of church building first spread 'official' Christianity throughout the Roman empire was a devotee of the cult of Sol Invictus, (the unconquered sun) and seems perhaps to have regarded Christianity as a variant of this. Debbie: >>Simple solution [to the problem of how H, R and V die simultaneously], completely can(n)on-based -- Ron's wand backfires in Voldemort's hands, bringing them all down together and taking Harry's head. That would be sufficiently Bangy. Just like Lockhart stole Ron's old wand and lost his memory when the wand backfired. The old Lockhart was dead; Harry went to hell and was raised up by Fawkes the resurrection symbol; Ron served time in Purgatory moving boulders, till Harry returned to take sinners Ron and Ginny up to new life.<< Eloise: We were listening to this again yesterday and I was struck by the imagery of Harry rescuing Ginny from the Chamber. The raising of Lazarus was what came to my mind, as well as the Harrowing of Hell. Debbie: >>Now for the biblical can(n)on -- three persons crucified together, Christ with two sinners, one repentant and one not. Ron, repentant, joins Harry in the next great adventure (compare "today you will be with me in Paradise" to the promise of happiness for Ron in the tea leaves after his suffering); Voldemort loses his life and goes to hell.<< Eloise: Of course, a true parallel to Christ's crucifixion would require that Harry dies at the hands of the judiciary, or the establishment in some form or another . We already have accusations from the MoM that Harry is dangerous, that his scar (depending on reading) is a warning. (FIE!) In another thread, I was ruminating on the fact that we haven't actually seen a death penalty as such in the WW. Could it exist? Could it, just possibly, be manifsted in the form of beheading? L. Terrell Gould, III: >>Yew is a sign of immortality, yes, but more importantly, of death. However, Harry's wand, ("Harry Potter: holly, 11", supple, single phoenix feather(from Fawkes)") is made of Holly, another tree associated with immortality, but on a different level. Holly is an evergreen, and therefore considered symbolic of ressurection (one of the reasons it is popular at Christmas, but also from older roots in the Yule celebration).<< Eloise: Now, funnily enough I was going to ask if there was anyone out there who had an opinion on this. Obviously, I appreciate the significance of Voldemort having a wand made of yew .It's just the yew trees in the churchyard that I can't find significant per se. You'd have to look hard to find one without yew trees. What is so interesting is that both Harry and Voldemort seem to have wands for which the symbolism is almost identical. Now, just for anyone else who isn't sure about this, yew *is* evergreen. As I understand it, the original symbolisms of holly and yew were similar, but yew, because of its association with graveyards later took on more strongly overtones of death, and lost (popularly) its association with resurrection. This is paralleled of course by societal attitudes. In the days of the early church, people would gather to celebrate at burial sites; they had positive connotations (in fact churches such as S. Peter's, Rome actually started out as cemetery churches, built to accomodate families of the deceased, or in its case, pilgrims). Later, as the mediaeval mind began to be filled with ideas of magic and demons and evil spirits, etc., churchyards became spooky and associated more strongly with fear of death. We have discussed before that symbols act at different levels. Do we assume that the symbolism of the yew of Voldemort's wand is operating at a level where the symbolism of death is uppermost (not least in what it deals out to others)? L Terrell Gould III again: >>PS: Does anyone else find it curious that most of the parallels found on this site between HP and religion involve the iconography of Christianity? Is it because it is widely known? Are most of us Christian? Are we just seeing it through the dominant socially enculterated schema in western s From drdara at yahoo.com Fri Apr 25 02:31:17 2003 From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 19:31:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry & Lord Voldemort's Wands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030425023117.98035.qmail@web14502.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56100 Jean, I agree with your son. Even though they are made of different woods, because they share the same type of magical core which just happened to come from the same phoenix, I too would say they are the same. If the phoenix feathers they had came from different phoenix's they would be different. Danielle __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From bard7696 at aol.com Fri Apr 25 02:41:27 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 02:41:27 -0000 Subject: Harry & Lord Voldemort's Wands In-Reply-To: <20030425023117.98035.qmail@web14502.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56101 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, danielle dassero wrote: > Jean, > I agree with your son. Even though they are made of > different woods, because they share the same type of > magical core which just happened to come from the same > phoenix, I too would say they are the same. If the > phoenix feathers they had came from different > phoenix's they would be different. > Danielle I think the fact that Fawkes only gave up two feathers has something to do with it too. I would imagine -- no canon, just imagining -- that if Fawkes or some other creature had 10-20 feathers, hairs or whatever out there in wands, the effect when two of the wands met would be lessened. Here's another thought... I wonder how long Dumbledore has had Fawkes? Because I wonder if Dumbledore, smelling trouble with Tom Riddle back in the 40s, called Ollivanders, asked which bird's feather was in Riddle's wand, and made a point of having one more, and only one more, feather plucked for a future wand. And then he took in the bird. No canon, just a thought. Darrin -- Of course, this goes back to Manipulative!Dumbledore, which I HATE! From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Apr 25 02:42:28 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 03:42:28 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry & Lord Voldemort's Wands References: <20030425023117.98035.qmail@web14502.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3EA8A094.000001.36407@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 56102 Danielle wrote - I agree with your son. Even though they are made of different woods, because they share the same type of magical core which just happened to come from the same phoenix, I too would say they are the same. If the phoenix feathers they had came from different phoenix's they would be different. Now me - I don't. I think Ollivander refers to the wands as 'brothers' - can anyone confirm that? Which to me implies that they are related/linked because of the magical core but not identical. I think it is the core that give the wand its magical abilities but other than length, which I imagine is more of a personal preference thing based on the size of the wizard involved, I think the other properties - the wand's wood and its feel - must have some effect, otherwise why bother? Why not make all wands out of the same wood and the same swishiness and just make them in 3 or 4 standard sizes? What I'd like to know is why Voldemort's wand chose him? Obviously we don't know how this 'the wand chooses the wizard' thing works - so that should make answering the question difficult. But why would a wand with a core of phoenix feather - and not just any phoenix feather but one from Albus' phoenix - resonate with someone as bitter and twisted (and I firmly believe TR is both even before he becomes LV) as Riddle? K From bard7696 at aol.com Fri Apr 25 02:54:29 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 02:54:29 -0000 Subject: Harry & Lord Voldemort's Wands In-Reply-To: <3EA8A094.000001.36407@monica> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56103 K: > I don't. I think Ollivander refers to the wands as 'brothers' - can anyone confirm that? Yes, he does. Sirius does as well, when Dumbledore is explaining the Priori Incantum effect at the end of GoF. Which to me implies that they are related/linked because of the magical core but not identical. I think it is the core that give the wand its magical abilities but other than length, which I imagine is more of a personal preference thing based on the size of the wizard involved, I think the other properties - the wand's wood and its feel - must have some effect, otherwise why bother? Why not make all wands out of the same wood and the same swishiness and just make them in 3 or 4 standard sizes? Harry and Riddle's wands ARE different sizes and woods. Page 65, PS/SS UK, Mr. Ollivander giaves Harry an 11-inch, holly wand. Then, when talking about how "its brother gave you that scar" he mentions giving V-mort a 13 1/2-inch yew wand. Ollivander also speaks about James' mahogany wand and Lily's willow wand being better suited for different spells. Two theories, one magical, one more mundane. 1) there are so many varieties of person, that it just follows that you'd want a large variety of woods, sizes, and flexibilities, so each person can get the perfect wand. 2) Ollivander is not an assembly-line worker. He's a craftsman. It would be dull and beneath him to just make similar wands over and over again. > What I'd like to know is why Voldemort's wand chose him? Obviously we don't know how this 'the wand chooses the wizard' thing works - so that should make answering the question difficult. But why would a wand with a core of phoenix feather - and not just any phoenix feather but one from Albus' phoenix - resonate with someone as bitter and twisted (and I firmly believe TR is both even before he becomes LV) as Riddle? > > K I suggest we don't know how long D-Dore has had Fawkes. (if we do, and I've missed or forgotten it in the canon, let me just give a preemptive sheepish "never mind") And anyway, bad wizards have to get wands from somewhere and I can't believe they are ALL dragon heartstrings, or vampire fangs or troll bogies, or whatever else goes into other wands besides Ollivanders. Darrin -- Make my wand out of a hair from Sophie Marceau's head. From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Fri Apr 25 03:15:49 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 03:15:49 -0000 Subject: Harry & Lord Voldemort's Wands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56104 Jean wrote: My son says that since Harry and LV's wands share the core from the same phoenix that their wands are the same. Now I come back with "No two Ollivander wands are the same, just as no two unicorns, dragons, or phoenixes are quite the same." PS/SS pg 84 US edition. But Billy says that the phoenix is the same and I said yes but the wood is different. LV's wand is made of yew and is 13.5" long. Harry's wand is made of holly and is 11" long. Billy said that didn't matter it is the magical core that matters. I write: I'm with you - the wands are similar, and related as a result of the shared origin of their cores, but are not the same. First off, you've covered the canon - the wands are not identical, both by Ollivander's admission and because the materials are not the same. Some more canon to boost your case. :-) "It so happens that the phoenix whose tail feather is in your wand, gave another feather - just one other. It is very curious indeed that you should be destined for this wand when its brother - why, its brother gave you that scar." (PS/SS, US paperback, Ch.5, 85) I'm guessing that the "brother" analogy is supposed to be accurate, otherwise, why use it, right? Just because you're someone's brother doesn't make you identical to that person. As Darrin pointed out: "So what happens when a wand meets its brother?" - Sirius (GoF, US paperback, Ch.36, 697) I've wondered about Priori Incantantem before, as well. Dumbledore describes it as "a very rare effect," (ibid) which I don't get at all. I mean, there are about a thousand kids at Hogwarts, right? Just how many unicorns, dragons, and phoenixes is Ollivander going around plucking stuff from, anyways? It seems (to me) more than likely to me that a lot of the wands he sells are 'brothers,' which makes me skeptical about how 'rare' this effect actually is. My best guess is that people don't force their wands to do battle too often. Anyways, good luck with the debate. -Tom From pegruppel at yahoo.com Fri Apr 25 00:40:34 2003 From: pegruppel at yahoo.com (pegruppel) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 00:40:34 -0000 Subject: Harry & Lord Voldemort's Wands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56105 Jean wrote: My son says that since Harry and LV's wands share the core from the same phoenix that their wands are the same. Now I come back with "No two Ollivander wands are the same, just as no two unicorns, dragons, or phoenixes are quite the same." But Billy says that the phoenix is the same and I said yes but the wood is different. LV's wand is made of yew and is 13.5" long. Harry's wand is made of holly and is 11" long. Billy said that didn't matter it is the magical core that > matters. > Me: Jean, I'm going to take your side in this one. I believe that it's the combination of the wood *and* the core that makes a wand unique. In other words, there is no other wand that exactly matches either Voldemort's or Harry's, although the cores are from the same animal. In fact, in GoF, Dumbledore states that the cores of the two wands are from two different feathers from Fawkes (sorry, I'm lazy and I'm not going to go get the book to get the page numbers). That would make the cores even more different. I think. At any rate, I hope I've given you some more material for your side of the disagreement! Peg From silencescreamsatme at yahoo.com Fri Apr 25 01:26:42 2003 From: silencescreamsatme at yahoo.com (silencescreamsatme) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 01:26:42 -0000 Subject: Spare Wands? (Was: Ron's Wand) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56106 Laura says: > But I do find it quite odd that there are no spare wands > lying around a place like Hogwarts.My response is: I think that sounds a little bit dangerous though if you ask me. To have a bunch of wands just lying around a castle? Wands are different than cauldrons or brooms. You can't cast a spell with a broom! (Yes you can make a potion with a cauldron, but it's not as simple as pointing and saying a word!) For example, if a student wanted to use a spell that was forbidden (Dark Arts, or maybe just a huge prank! lol) and they knew they would be suspected for it, all they would have to do would be to get ahold of a spare wand, use that one, and then loose it again. That way if they were ever under suspicion for casting their spell, they could offer up their wand for inspection and say "See? I didn't do it...my last spell was !" Also, imagine if Peeves got his hands on a spare wand? Imagine the kind of damage he could do then! (That is if ghosts can even use wands or still perform magic...maybe that topic has already been discussed!) By the way, I am new to this group. Hope I'm doing everything right! ~Silence From silencescreamsatme at yahoo.com Fri Apr 25 01:32:34 2003 From: silencescreamsatme at yahoo.com (silencescreamsatme) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 01:32:34 -0000 Subject: Astronomy DEPARTMENT? (was: Snape's special title) In-Reply-To: <7CCC3F10-769A-11D7-80AB-000A27E2A402@dionysia.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56107 Dan says: > There's an entire DEPARTMENT for Astronomy? Just how many astronomy > teachers are there? As far as I can tell, none of the other > subjects have entire departments. Throughout all of the books (and > that whole passage is a good example) it always refers to only > ONE teacher for each subject. I've never read, for instance, of > any other Transfiguration teachers besides McGonagal, or Charms > teachers besides Flitwick (sp?). My response: Well, the technical definition of Department is just "c. A division of a school or college dealing with a particular field of knowledge: the physics department." Could it just be possible to have one teacher in each division? ~Silence From KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET Fri Apr 25 01:37:41 2003 From: KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET (Linda) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 01:37:41 -0000 Subject: Character Strengths and Differences/Importance to the Story Line Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56108 I was reading the discussions about the level of magical talent possessed by each of our three heroes. I don't think that how much magical talent they have is the point at all. I do agree that Harry seems to have the most innate talent in that respect and that helps define his character. I wouldn't necessarily catergorize Hermione as the smart one however. Instead I think of her more as driven to excell. I don't see that so much as a lack of confidence ( as somebody mentioned, I don't recall who) but more as an unwillingness to admit that anything is beyond her grasp if she tries hard enough to achieve it. At some point I think that this could shake her confidence ( the boggart and Patronus in POA not withstanding), but it will by no means will it shatter her and she will turn it into a learning experiance-just like she does every other obstacle she encounters. But I'm getting off my own subject a bit. Ron, in particular, facinates me as a character. The fact that he does "not" seem (at least up to this point in cannon) to have any extraordinary talents compared to the overacheivers that are his best friends is endearing to me. However, without Ron the story would have been stopped in its tracks in SS/PS. They couldn't have gotten by the chess set without him. Hold on, i'm working this out as I type. OK. That is Ron's talent! Neither Hermione nor Harry possess the analytical skills to reason through things like Ron can. Hermione works on strictly facts (her own version of cannon? lol). >>"Mandrake, or Mandrgora, is a powerful restorative," said Hermione, sounding as usual as though she had swallowed the textbook.<< (COS pg 92USpb) With all deferance to Harry's innate magical talent as mentioned above( >> For a thirteen-year-old wizard, even an indistinct Patronus is a huge achievement.<< POA pg 246USpb), I am more impressed with his loyalty and courage of conviction. He is the driving force, teaching the others to, as Dumbledore said in GOF, >>choose what is right<<(paraphrase). All that said, in the classic literary sense, each of the three main charcters plays an important part in moving the story forward. Hermione supplies the logic on which they base their decisions. Ron provides the analysis of those fact and reasons through how they might accomplish whatever task must be done(either subtly or proactively). Harry is the focal point for the group, giving all three the will and the courage to do what must be done. Ingenious interweaving of the characters by JKR. Don't you think? Thoughts anyone? (Whoo! Sorry for the length, I just got off on tangent.) Linda From silencescreamsatme at yahoo.com Fri Apr 25 01:45:18 2003 From: silencescreamsatme at yahoo.com (silencescreamsatme) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 01:45:18 -0000 Subject: Muggles and potions (Was: Snape's special title) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56109 Wrote: > It seems to me that potions is the most complex form of practical- >(well all magic is magical but you know what I mean) My response: This brings up an interesting question that I've never thought of until now. Because Potions doesn't require wand-work...when you get down to it, it's mixing and brewing certain ingredients together...do you think a Muggle would be able to make a Potion if given the recipe? Or am I so out of the field that you can't even see the ball anymore? lol ~Silence From mazie123 at msn.com Fri Apr 25 02:01:11 2003 From: mazie123 at msn.com (morgan_le_fey787) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 02:01:11 -0000 Subject: Harry & Lord Voldemort's Wands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56110 >My son says that since Harry > and LV's wands share the core from the same phoenix that their wands > are the same. Now I come back with "No two Ollivander wands are the > same, just as no two unicorns, dragons, or phoenixes are quite the > same." PS/SS pg 84 US edition. But Billy says that the phoenix is > the same and I said yes but the wood is different. LV's wand is > made of yew and is 13.5" long. Harry's wand is made of holly and is > 11" long. Billy said that didn't matter it is the magical core that > matters. I think that I can safely say that BIlly is wrong on this one. The wood of a wand is not merely a container for the magical substance inside. It does contribute to the unique magical signature of a wand. If it were merely the core that facilitated magic, then when Ron snapped a bit off of his wand in CoS, it would have worked properly for at least a little while before the core itself was damaged and it started to malfunction. Also, throughout history different types of wood have been imbued with different properties, some of them magical in nature. JKR has taken a lot of cues from cultures throughout history for some of the ideas in her book, and I don't see why the wood her wands are made of woudn't be magical as well as the core. In the end, Harry's and Voldemort's wands are NOT exactly the same. Because of the wood differences and even the small differences in the feathers from Fawkes that must be there, the two wands cannot be identical. There you go, and good luck with your son. Morgan *who has officially delurked* From patricia at obscure.org Fri Apr 25 04:24:01 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 00:24:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry & Lord Voldemort's Wands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56111 On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, jlg881 wrote: > Hello everyone! I need your help. I am having a "disagreement" with > my son about Harry's and LV's wands. My son says that since Harry > and LV's wands share the core from the same phoenix that their wands > are the same. Now I come back with "No two Ollivander wands are the > same, just as no two unicorns, dragons, or phoenixes are quite the > same." PS/SS pg 84 US edition. But Billy says that the phoenix is > the same and I said yes but the wood is different. LV's wand is > made of yew and is 13.5" long. Harry's wand is made of holly and is > 11" long. Billy said that didn't matter it is the magical core that > matters. The wands are certainly closely related -- JRK tells us that flat out. However, they are not the same. JKR makes a point of letting us know what woods the two wands are made out of, and those woods are very different. LV's wand is made of yew, a tree traditionally associated with death and decay. It is often found in graveyards (and JKR even points out a yew tree in the cemetary scene in GoF). Yew is a very appropriate material for the original Death Eater. Harry's wand is made of holly, which traditionally represents the continuation of life or everlasting life. In the Christian tradition, holly is often seen as representing Christ -- the spiky leaves represent Christ's crown of thorns, and the red berries represent Christ's blood. All of this is very appropriate for The Boy Who Lived. I don't think JKR just coincidentally chose two types of wood with such radically opposed associations. She's too well informed not to have noticed the symbolism associated with holly and yew. And really, there is no point telling us about the different woods if they don't have any effect on the wand. She draws our attention to the various woods that wands are made of on so many occassions that it must be something she wants us to pay attention to. So no, I don't believe the wands are the same even though they are very similar, in much the same way that Harry and Voldemort are not the same even though they have many uncanny similarities. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From erinellii at yahoo.com Fri Apr 25 06:05:49 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 06:05:49 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: [HPforGrownups] Oedipus Potter (tongue slightly in cheek but serious point) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56112 "herm - own - ninny" wrote: the fact that Harry becoming romantically involved with a Lily > look-a-like creates a second generation Lily and James is very >interesting. Surely there would be reason behind it, if JKR chose >to do this (and that's a big IF). It would create a parallel between the two generations, and must mean *something*. Unfortunately I am slightly brain dead at the moment and cannot think of any wildly interesting theories. Anyone else care to have a go at it? Me: Maybe as simple as a Wuthering Heights theme? "the second generation gets it right"? Erin From a_rude_mechanical at yahoo.com Fri Apr 25 06:17:26 2003 From: a_rude_mechanical at yahoo.com (a_rude_mechanical) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 06:17:26 -0000 Subject: Vampire Snape/Knowing Lucius was a DE/Remus as Spy (WAS: Thoughts and questions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56113 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: > Rane wrote: > > > > But later, I started wondering if maybe Snape simply didn't *know* > > Malfoy was a DE. > Phyllis replied: > > It seems to me that it's fairly common knowledge that Lucius was a > DE. > ~Phyllis I've been considering this whole question (Snape's reaction to Harry's mention of Lucius at the reunion at the end of GoF) and I had a new thought. (Sorry if this has been discussed ad infinitim). Here goes: what if Snape was convinced that Lucius had honestly renounced his association with Voldie? Does anyone other than Harry and Dobby know that Lucius gave Ginny the diary in CoS? What if this news really is a shock to him--Voldie does call Lucius "my slippery friend." Perhaps they are close friends--and/or Snape realizes what kind of problems Lucius could cause, being as powerful as he is. What do ya think? Is Snape truly shocked and disappointed at the news that a close friend (someone who might understand what it is like to be a former DE but to have rejected it) has betrayed him? Or is it just me being sleepy... Elisabeth From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Apr 25 06:17:58 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 06:17:58 -0000 Subject: Ages In-Reply-To: <00a201c30acc$ee47e0c0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56114 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Taryn Kimel" wrote: > Kelly: > Lots of discussion has been made about Hermione's age and just when a person gets to enter Hogwarts. .... > > Me: > How is it "as far as we know" that they turn 11 that year? Harry turned 11 /after/ everyone else in the year did. .... He'll be one of the youngest of his class. Everyone will be turning 12 throughout their first year at Hogwarts, Harry just only gets to turn 12 /after/ his first year. (I know the feeling. I never get my birthday on the announcements. ^_~) > > --Taryn bboy_mn: I think you've nailed it down. There has been all kinds of speculation about Hermione having to miss a year of school to get in sync with the wizard school etc.... But it is as simple as this, they are all 11 when they start the wizards school year, and most of them will turn 12 during that same school year. As you pointed out, Harry's birthday is during the summer holiday, and doesn't turn 12 until after the end of school. Hermione on the other hand, turns 12 a few weeks after the start of the first school year. They are all 11 when they start, and before the beginning of the next year of school, they will all be 12. This same sequence occurs when Hermione starts muggle school. All the kids are 5 (or whatever) when they first start school. Hermione turns 6 a few weeks later, and most, but not all, of those muggle kids also turn 6 during the school year. Hermoine isn't at all out of sync with the other kids, she just has her birthday earlier in the year. I really don't see any controversy here; it all seems pretty straight forward. Just a thought. bboy_mn From KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET Fri Apr 25 01:52:12 2003 From: KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET (Linda) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 01:52:12 -0000 Subject: Harry & Lord Voldemort's Wands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56115 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jlg881" wrote: > Now I come back with "No two Ollivander wands are the > same, just as no two unicorns, dragons, or phoenixes are quite the > same." PS/SS pg 84 US edition. But Billy says that the phoenix is > the same and I said yes but the wood is different. LV's wand is > made of yew and is 13.5" long. Harry's wand is made of holly and is > 11" long. Billy said that didn't matter it is the magical core that > matters. Now me: There is really no cannon that I can come up with to support a definite answer to your question so I'm going to try an educateedd guess. What makes a wand unique if they share the same core? It seems to me that it must have to to with the length of the wand, the type of wood it's made of or any combination of the three properties. As you can see, I definitely believe that the wands are net identical just because the cores are identical. I only wish there was some cannon to back up my gut feeling on this one. If anyone has any canon to proove or disproove the former, I'll take any help I can get. Linda From c4bchief at yahoo.com Fri Apr 25 02:44:41 2003 From: c4bchief at yahoo.com (Joe) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 02:44:41 -0000 Subject: Harry & Lord Voldemort's Wands In-Reply-To: <20030425023117.98035.qmail@web14502.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56116 > Jean, > I agree with your son. Even though they are made of > different woods, because they share the same type of > magical core which just happened to come from the same > phoenix, I too would say they are the same. If the > phoenix feathers they had came from different > phoenix's they would be different. > Danielle Although I will concede that the CORE plays a huge factor. I still think the wood is very important. Clearly different woods have different properties and play a purpose. I still don't see how they can be called the same. Because a wand made from Holly which is the STRONGEST of the protective woods and a wand made of Yew which is the wood of deatha are vastly different. Just like JKR explained via Dumbledore in GoF.. The wands are BROTHERS. They are not the same, just simply related. My thoughts, Joe From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Fri Apr 25 03:12:49 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 20:12:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry & Lord Voldemort's Wands In-Reply-To: <3EA8A094.000001.36407@monica> Message-ID: <20030425031249.22213.qmail@web21201.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56117 --- Kathryn Cawte wrote: > Now me - > > I don't. I think Ollivander refers to the wands > as 'brothers' - can anyone > confirm that? Which to me implies that they are > related/linked because of > the magical core but not identical. I think it > is the core that give the > wand its magical abilities > > What I'd like to know is why Voldemort's wand > chose him? Obviously we don't > know how this 'the wand chooses the wizard' > thing works - so that should > make answering the question difficult. But why > would a wand with a core of > phoenix feather - and not just any phoenix > feather but one from Albus' > phoenix - resonate with someone as bitter and > twisted (and I firmly believe > TR is both even before he becomes LV) as > Riddle? > > K Me: I see the phoenix feathers more as identical twins rather than the same just because they came from the same phoenix. In some respects the same but in other respects very different, just as human identical twins are. Twins may have the same outward appearance but have different personalities. I also think that all four items, core, wood, length and characteristic probably have a part to play in the abilities of the wand otherwise there wouldn't be the emphasis placed on those items that Ollivander puts on it. I get the sense that the wand responds to the power and ability inside a person and not whether they are good or evil. Voldemort has shown his power already and Harry has shown glimpses of just how powerful a wizard he could be in the future, which the Sorting Hat foretells when it tells Harry he could be great. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Fri Apr 25 02:42:33 2003 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 02:42:33 -0000 Subject: Pronunciation of 'Knut' Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56118 If you visit scholastic's website, there is an HP pronunciation guide. I suppose it will raise questions as to it's authenticity, but there you go. BTW, didn't see this on the MFAC list, but can one of you Brits out there explain what treacle and chipolatas are? Silly question, but I keep confusing what is called a sausage with the Mexican peppers, chipotles. imamommy (PS--I think it is "nut") From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Apr 25 07:14:45 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 07:14:45 -0000 Subject: Harry & Lord Voldemort's Wands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56119 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "morgan_le_fey787" wrote: > > >My son says that since Harry and LV's wands share the core from the same phoenix that their wands are the same. ..edited... But Billy says that the phoenix is the same and I said yes but the wood is different. ...edited... Billy said that didn't matter it is the magical core that matters. > > Morgan: > > I think that I can safely say that Billy is wrong on this one. The > wood of a wand is not merely a container for the magical substance > inside. ...edited... > > Also, throughout history different types of wood have been imbued > with different properties, some of them magical in nature. > ...edited.... > > ...edited... Because of the wood differences and even the small > differences in the feathers from Fawkes that must be there, the two > wands cannot be identical. There you go, and good luck with your > son. > > Morgan *who has officially delurked* bboy_mn: I'm with Morgan on this one. If the wood type didn't make a difference then why are so many different types of wood used. The wizard no more gets to pick his wood than he does any other aspect of the wand. Same with length, if length doesn't make a difference then why are they different lengths? It can't be personal preference because you don't get to pick the length any more than you get to pick the core or the wood. These are all characteristics that fine tune the wand. Also, keep in mind that Harry wasn't just matched to a Phoenix feather, because he tried other Phoenix feather wands. He was matched to a specific Phoenix feather, just like he was matched to a specific wood and length. Wood has it's own rich mytholgy and folklore. Holly (Harry's) for example is associated with life and rebirth. That's why it is used symbolically at Christmas to symbolize the birth/rebirth of Christ. Yew (Voldemort's) on the other hand symbolizes death. Yew trees are most often found in graveyards. Folklore and Mythology of Trees- http://www.treesforlife.org.uk/tfl.contents24.html http://www.treelore.com/trees/index.html There is a better link, but I wasn't able to find it tonight. The subject of wands has been discussed in depth here and below I have added some links to the more recent lengthy discussions. Thoughts on Wands- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/52995 Ancient Magic and wands- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/49246 Wand cores- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/44320 Wands- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/42701 You will find more information here than you ever imagined. Just a thought. bboy_mn From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Fri Apr 25 03:25:33 2003 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 03:25:33 -0000 Subject: On the good SHIP lollipop... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56120 I make it my business to stay neutral on the subject of SHIPping, but I want to respond in a generic way to what Greicy wrote: I have no doubt in my mind that Harry has a special place in his heart for his two bestfriends and Hagrid, the first three to be- friend him, that'll make him go crazy if anything were to happen to them. But has a very soft spot for Hermione especially because well....I just like to think so. ;) I keep thinking that in GoF, the thing Harry would miss the most was his "Wheezy". (and no, I do NOT support any theories of Harry and Ron on a cruise SHIP) All I mean is that there isn't a shred if evidence, IMO to support Harry having romantic feelings for Hermione. Also, when Ron wasn't speaking to him (GoF) He really had a hard time. Quote: "Harry liked Hermione very much, but she just wasn't the same as Ron. There was much less laughter and a lot more hanging around in the library when Hermione was your best friend." (GoF, pp.316-7, Scholastic) Fact is, the only person I've noticed Harry have a crush on is Cho Chang. I don't say he couldn't develop feelings for Hermione, I just don't think there is any evidence at this time. I think there is substantial evidence for Ron having a crush on Hermione, but I really don't feel like citing the *many* examples I can think of. What I would like to address is the argument some SHIPpers have made that the two of them are incompatible. I would disagree, that, because Hermione seems like a take-charge kind of girl (she reminds me a lot of Mrs. Weasley, actually), and Ron seems like he could use someone to look after him, they may be well suited after all. I would like someone to point out why they think otherwise, as I really would like to stay open to any possibilities. imamommy (Who's afraid her SHIP has sailed) From KWS at rStreet.Com Fri Apr 25 05:08:15 2003 From: KWS at rStreet.Com (Kathleen Salisbury) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 22:08:15 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry & Lord Voldemort's Wands References: Message-ID: <3EA8C2BF.9060202@rStreet.Com> No: HPFGUIDX 56121 Hello Everyone! I found this which I thought was interesting: HOLLY (Ilex aquifolium) A beautiful white wood with an almost invisible grain; looks very much like ivory. Holly is associated with the death and rebirth symbolism of winter in both Pagan and Christian lore. In Arthurian legend, Gawain (representing the Oak King of summer) fought the Green Knight, who was armed with a holly club to represent winter. It is one of the three timbers used in the construction of chariot wheel shafts. It was used in spear shafts also. The qualities of a spear shaft are balance and directness, as the spear must be hefted to be thrown the holly indicates directed balance and vigour to fight if the cause is just. Holly may be used in spells having to do with sleep or rest, and to ease the passage of death. YEW (Taxus baccata) A beautifully smooth, gold-coloured wood with a wavy grain. All parts of the tree are poisonous except the fleshy covering of the berry, and its medicinal uses include a recently discovered treatment for cancer. Long associated with magic, death, rebirth and the runes, the yew may be the oldest-lived tree in the world. Ancient yews can be found in churchyards all over Britain, where they often pre-date even the oldest churches. There are some convincing arguements for it being the original 'World-tree' of Scandinavian mythology. In Europe, yew wood was used for making bows, while on the northwest coast of North America, the Pacific yew (Taxus brevifolia) is used by the Haida and other tribes for making masks and boxes. Yew may be used to enhance magical and psychic abilities, and to induce visions. Patricia Bullington-McGuire wrote: > I don't think JKR just coincidentally chose two types of wood with such > radically opposed associations. She's too well informed not to have > noticed the symbolism associated with holly and yew. And really, there is > no point telling us about the different woods if they don't have any > effect on the wand. She draws our attention to the various woods that > wands are made of on so many occassions that it must be something she > wants us to pay attention to. So no, I don't believe the wands are the > same even though they are very similar, in much the same way that Harry > and Voldemort are not the same even though they have many uncanny > similarities. I agree completely with this! JKR knows her stuff. Kathleen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tahewitt at yahoo.com Fri Apr 25 08:11:12 2003 From: tahewitt at yahoo.com (Tyler Hewitt) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 01:11:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Departments In-Reply-To: <1051220095.3375.86974.m5@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030425081112.25386.qmail@web14206.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56122 Dan wrote: > There's an entire DEPARTMENT for Astronomy? Just how many astronomy teachers are there? As far as I can tell, none of the other subjects have entire departments. Throughout all of the books (and > that whole passage is a good example) it always refers to only ONE teacher for each subject. I've never read, for instance, of any other Transfiguration teachers besides McGonagal, or Charms teachers besides Flitwick (sp?). Silence responded: Well, the technical definition of Department is just "c. A division of a school or college dealing with a particular field of knowledge: the physics department." Could it just be possible to have one teacher in each division? Me: Its possible to have one teacher per department. I went to a very small graduate school (Cranbrook Academy of Art), there is one teacher per department there, and about 15 students per department (with 10 departments thats a total enrollment of around 150 students). Oh, officially the faculty at Cranbrook are artists in residence, not teachers, but thats mainly a difference in title only. If Cranbrook does it, there have to be others as well. Cant imagine that theres only one. So, yes, it is possible that a department can exist with only one faculty member. I imagine that a one person department faculty at Hogwarts would set departmental goals, curriculum, etc. as well as teach. Maybe some subjects have committee (or possibly Ministry of Magic?) mandated curriculum, and therefore may not be technically departments. Tyler __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Fri Apr 25 07:34:16 2003 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Ivan=20Vablatsky?=) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 08:34:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: Ron's Wand WAS: Harry, Errol and Mrs. Norris In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030425073416.73498.qmail@web21505.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56123 darrin_burnett wrote: Alex asked: but has Ron ever done anything magical that put him above the rest? He was probably lucky to get the wand of Charlie. > Ron's shining magical moment so far -- I think -- has been the Wingardium Leviosa bit to save Hermione from the troll in PS/SS. But, I do have to give ickle Ronnekins some credit for being a gutsy kid. He was all set broken leg and all, to help fight Sirus Black. Darrin I know Ron's self-sacrifice in the chess game wasn't strictly speaking an act of magic, but I think I can forgive Ron anything at all after that magical act of love. He could have been killed! That's real guts! Hans --------------------------------- Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Apr 25 08:23:19 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 08:23:19 -0000 Subject: Snape's special title In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56124 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: Darrin: > > Also, something that was tossed about last year was whether Snape is kind of > a research professor, which explains why he seems to hate teaching. The > little bastards take him away from what he really wants to do, find ways to cure > werewolves, vampires, etc... > I think the Snape is a vampire, just as Snape is Muggle-born, Snape is an > outcast, Snape was picked on at Hogwarts, etc... all come from fanfic > contamination. > > Until canon gives us another Slytherin (besides Tom Riddle) who is not > pureblood, I am going to have to be convinced that one of them is not > pureblood. After all, there is essence of old Salazar in that Sorting Hat, > remember, and he didn't like Muggle-borns. Riddle was a descendant of > Slytherin AND renounced all Muggle-hood. ME: Snape would enjoy research, indeed - Snape loves his potions and while Snape _is_ capable of logic (rare among wizards), he seems to react emotionally quite often - particularly about Harry, Hermione & Neville... And while Hermione is the Trio's expert in logical mind (and I do think logic is important in potions) - in solving riddles. Harry does well enough, too - he _did_ solve that Sphinx-riddle. And Ron with chess. But on Logic/Muggle-born? Could be - but, taking into account the "if we hadn't married Muggles, we would have died out"... Logic is something that can be learned. It is, IMO, possible that Snape had both Muggle and wizard relatives, that one way or other he did gain some Muggle education, as well as learning all those curses! I think that Snape knew all he could learn from the books about potions & all before arriving to Hogwarts - much like Hermione... -- Finwitch From A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk Fri Apr 25 10:08:03 2003 From: A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk (edisbevan) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:08:03 -0000 Subject: Snape's special title In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56125 "Gomes Moor" wrote: > does anyone have any idea about why Snape is the only member of Hogwarts' staff who is called "master"? Leading and re-reading the passage of description it still looks to me like JKR just used different expressions for 'teacher' to avoid making the passage a tedious catalogue. A literary device in short. 'Teacher' and 'Master' are interchangeable in most traditional UK schools usage - teacher becoming more usual nowadays as it is a gender-free word. Thus the post of Headmaster or Headmistress is now usually called a Head Teacher (the term 'Principal' being an US term not used in Britain). However the literary effect of calling Snape a 'Master' is possibly to emphasise some traditional views on education and social usage... What is unusual in the HP universe is referring to school teachers as 'Professor'. This definitely is not part of Muggle UK norms. Edis From ehawkes at iinet.net.au Fri Apr 25 10:46:23 2003 From: ehawkes at iinet.net.au (Emma Hawkes) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:46:23 +0800 Subject: Changes in English and American Editions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56126 I was wondering if anyone out there had the references to the changes in the description of Dean Thomas between the English and American editions? Emma From Dionysos at Dionysia.org Fri Apr 25 12:43:16 2003 From: Dionysos at Dionysia.org (Dan Delaney) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 08:43:16 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Spare Wands? (Was: Ron's Wand) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <7C9BA480-771B-11D7-8A5D-000A27E2A402@dionysia.org> No: HPFGUIDX 56127 On Thursday, April 24, 2003, at 09:26 PM, silencescreamsatme wrote: > I think that sounds a little bit dangerous though if you ask me. To > have a bunch of wands just lying around a castle? Who said anything about the wands "just lying around the castle"? I'm sure they have secure storage rooms for those kinds of things, just as Snape has his own secure store room for all his potion ingredients (albeit not all that secure, evidently!) > Also, imagine if Peeves got his hands on a spare wand? Imagine the > kind of damage he could do then! I've never seen any evidence that Peeves (or any ghost for that matter) is capable of using a want and performing magic spells. And even if he was capable, and he wanted to, I'm sure he could easily get ahold of a student's want if he wanted to. --Dan From flamingstarchows at att.net Fri Apr 25 12:53:44 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (FlamingStar Chows) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 07:53:44 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Character Strengths and Differences/Importance to the Story Line References: Message-ID: <001601c30b29$b563ff20$0714570c@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 56128 From: Linda I was reading the discussions about the level of magical talent possessed by each of our three heroes. I don't think that how much magical talent they have is the point at all. I do agree that Harry seems to have the most innate talent in that respect and that helps define his character. However, without Ron the story would have been stopped in its tracks in SS/PS. They couldn't have gotten by the chess set without him. OK. That is Ron's talent! Neither Hermione nor Harry possess the analytical skills to reason through things like Ron can. ----Me---- I'm supposed to be on my way to work, so this will have to be brief... Hermione worked out the step in SS/PS to determine which bottle would get them safely through the fire (in either direction). That takes a bit of analytical skill. Also, Harry was able to work out the riddle given by the Spinx. That wasn't a piece of cake, either. While they may not be as good as Ron at chess, they do possess analytical ability. ~Cathy~ From mdemeran at hotmail.com Fri Apr 25 13:21:37 2003 From: mdemeran at hotmail.com (Meg Demeranville) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 08:21:37 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ginny's Birthday or age. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <009101c30b2d$99dd0ae0$6501a8c0@MFD> No: HPFGUIDX 56129 Gily Ann wrote: When is Ginny's birthday? I know we don't know, but an aproximate of it. We know March 1 is Ron's Birthday. And somebody said it was 1980 the year???? But when would it be aproximate time for her. Someone told me that in some Spanish place JKR said it was Oct. 31???? It is pretty impossible for Ginny to have been born on Oct. 31st. The earliest Mrs. Weasley could have had Ginny would be mid-December. I know that's nitpicky, but March 1st to December 1st is 9 months. So it would have to be at least a few weeks after March 1st that Mrs. Weasley got pregnant. I have a hard time believing that Ginny was born in 1980 at all. I think it is more probable that her birthday is in 1981. Just from a technical standpoint. Of course, all bets are off if Ginny was premature. But even then it would be a stretch. And of course, this assumes that wizard biology includes a 9 month gestation. If JKR chooses to rewrite gestation, then maybe it's so. Ginny sure would have an auspicious birthday, the day the Dark Lord was defeated. --Meg (who really needs to get her project done) Read the untold story of life as a first year medical student at: As The Scalpel Turns - http://www.livejournal.com/users/megd/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From meboriqua at aol.com Fri Apr 25 13:22:25 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:22:25 -0000 Subject: Character Strengths and Differences/Importance to the Story Line In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56130 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Linda" wrote: > All that said, in the classic literary sense, each of the > three main charcters plays an important part in moving the story > forward. Hermione supplies the logic on which they base their > decisions. Ron provides the analysis of those fact and reasons > through how they might accomplish whatever task must be done(either > subtly or proactively). Harry is the focal point for the group, > giving all three the will and the courage to do what must be done.> I think Ron truly serves another purpose. He comes from an old wizarding family and has always been able to provide both information and history for Harry and Ron. Ron is also an example of how someone can harbor stereotypes and then learn to let them go. When Ron first discovered Lupin was a werewolf, he was horrified, but later realized that Lupin is still the good guy and excellent professor Ron had grown to respect. Ron is also the one who tells Harry about the negative reputation giants have, but Ron still continues his friendship with Hagrid. Unfortunately, though, I don't think Ron has done much analysis of facts and reasons other than the chess game in SS (feel free to prove me wrong, anyone!). He is quick to jump to conclusions and often lets his emotions/jealousies/resentments get in the way of what makes sense. His unwarranted anger at Harry for becoming a Triwizard contestant is the best example of this I can think of. His disrespectful words towards Hermione after the Yule Ball is another. These things make Ron a complicated and very realistic character, IMO, and I'm curious to see how JKR will develop Ron in OoP. --jenny from ravenclaw ***************************** From d_lea25 at yahoo.ca Fri Apr 25 13:45:40 2003 From: d_lea25 at yahoo.ca (Lea) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:45:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Freindship outside trio -Draco Malfoy - Snape/Black In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030425134540.22143.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56131 oldone7777 wrote: snip> Draco may reach an understanding with Harry in the fight with Voldie but, would never be fast freinds. I agree it could be another sourse of tension in the Ron-Harry relationship. "Old One" And now me: This is a very good point. In the future I see Harry & Draco forming an alliance to work together against Voldemort, albeit an uneasy alliance. I don't believe that Draco knows the full extent of his father's activities, but I believe he is more afraid of his father than he lets on. And the easiest way to deal with those feelings is to turn them outward and take them out on someone else - in this case our trio, espcecially Hermione. But the point I wanted to make is that at this point - Snape and Sirius are in the exact position where Harry and Draco will find themselves in the future. They do not like each other nor do they trust each other - but for the good of the cause, they are having to put aside their personal feelings and work alongside Dumbledore in fighting Voldemort. With no other father-figure in sight, Harry looks up to his godfather and this could be very important for the future - this is the example that Harry will have to learn from when it comes time for him to put aside his differences and work with Draco. Sirius (hopefully) will prove that it can be done. We will have to wait for the remaining books to be sure they are successful, at this point we only know the direction they were headed at the end of GoF. But as long as their respect/admiration for Dumbledore, not to mention their shared goal of defeating Voldemort, is stronger than their feelings for each other - Snape and Sirius will succeed in working together. Any thoughts? Lea :) --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bard7696 at aol.com Fri Apr 25 13:54:00 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:54:00 -0000 Subject: Freindship outside trio -Draco Malfoy - Snape/Black In-Reply-To: <20030425134540.22143.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56132 Lea:> > This is a very good point. In the future I see Harry & Draco forming an alliance to work together against Voldemort, albeit an uneasy alliance. I don't believe that Draco knows the full extent of his father's activities, but I believe he is more afraid of his father than he lets on. And the easiest way to deal with those feelings is to turn them outward and take them out on someone else - in this case our trio, espcecially Hermione. > > But the point I wanted to make is that at this point - Snape and Sirius are in the exact position where Harry and Draco will find themselves in the future. They do not like each other nor do they trust each other - but for the good of the cause, they are having to put aside their personal feelings and work alongside Dumbledore in fighting Voldemort. > > For this parallel to work, Draco is going to have to do something to earn the trust of Dumbledore, just as Snape did. And it's going to have to be big. If Dumbledore approves, then Harry will grudgingly go along, but not before. As for Sirius and Snape, if I was Dumbledore, I'd keep them on separate ends of the battlefield for now. As for me, I'd rather see Draco go the other way. I'd rather see him out-Lucius Lucius. I'd like him to take a look at the full extent of his father's activities and say with an evil laugh, "Well, that's very good, Dad, but how about THIS?" The books are running short of villains. Snape is now a good guy. Wormtail has still got that life debt thing to Harry to deal with. Crouch is dead. The DEs are so far non-factors and only Lucius has any character development. Crouch is dead. Bagman and Lockhart are jokes. Rita Skeeter has potential, as does Fudge, but that needs more development. Keep Draco evil. Make him MORE evil, I say. Make it an even match between him and Harry. Darrin -- Last year, we called this the BadAsHeWantsToBe!Draco From annemehr at yahoo.com Fri Apr 25 13:43:48 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:43:48 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: New OOP: prefix and spoiler policy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56133 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Suzanne Chiles wrote: > Tyler said: > > > However, I am concerned about people (like myself) who > > are subscribed to this list in digest form. Digest > > form, for those who don't know, compiles several posts > > into one long e-mail message. This is to avoid having > > your mailbox clogged with hundreds of individual posts > > (I receive 2-4 HPFGU digests on a typical day, each > > containing about 10-25 individual posts). > > A good point, Tyler. I think it might also be a problem for those who read > the list on Yahoo. Before I started sending the mail to my personal email > address, I did read it off the web, and found the only way to read it was > to bring up the whole list and just keep hitting next. If you try to do > otherwise, it's almost impossible to use. Which is why I started getting it > through the mail. Annemehr: I'm going to respond on the list because I think it might be helpful to quite a few members. Sorry if I'm wrong! If you are looking for only non-OoP posts beginning June 21st, then it certainly would be easiest to read on line. Just bring up the message index and you will see only the subject lines, and you can search for the ones that do not begin with OoP. After you've found and read one of those, just click "back" or "message index" to get back to the list of subject headings to find the next non-OoP message. As there won't be very many of these, this should be the quickest as well as safest way to find them. By the way, I read all the messages on line now. After you bring up the message index, if you hit "expand messages," you will get a batch of messages displayed in full, so that it looks just like an email digest -- you can just scroll down and read them. There is only one ad at the top, and you only have to hit "next" after you've read -- I forget -- about 20 messages or so? It's very convenient. Hope I've been helpful... Annemehr who would like to note that receiving and electrostatic shock directly on a paper-cut is a whole new experience... =O From JessaDrow at aol.com Fri Apr 25 14:20:49 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:20:49 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Freindship outside trio -Draco Malfoy - Snape/Black Message-ID: <6c.2cdb7cef.2bda9e41@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56134 In a message dated 4/25/03 10:09:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bard7696 at aol.com writes: > The books are running short of villains. Snape is now a good guy. > Wormtail has still got that life debt thing to Harry to deal with. > First the old 'this has probably already been discussed' disclaimer.. Does this mean that Ginny would owe Harry a life debt for saving her life in CoS? And Ron and Harry would owe Hermione a life debt for saving their lives in PS/SS, when she saved them from the Devils Snare? ~Faith~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bard7696 at aol.com Fri Apr 25 14:57:59 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:57:59 -0000 Subject: Freindship outside trio -Draco Malfoy - Snape/Black In-Reply-To: <6c.2cdb7cef.2bda9e41@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56135 > First the old 'this has probably already been discussed' disclaimer.. Does > this mean that Ginny would owe Harry a life debt for saving her life in CoS? > And Ron and Harry would owe Hermione a life debt for saving their lives in > PS/SS, when she saved them from the Devils Snare? > > ~Faith~ > > Good question. Two answers why I say no. 1) Dumbledore hasn't told us they do. He told us about Wormtail's debt to Harry. 2) Perhaps the life debt is a little like Veritaserum in that it compels a wizard to do something he or she wouldn't ordinarily do. Given 1,000 chances to save Hermione's life, Ron and Harry would do so 1,000 times, so a magical debt compelling them might not be necessary. Darrin -- I'm at work. Can't think of any band names. Gotta run. From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Fri Apr 25 15:06:54 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 15:06:54 -0000 Subject: Life debts (WAS:Re: Freindship outside trio -Draco Malfoy - Snape/Black) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56136 Faith asked: >Does this mean that Ginny would owe Harry a life debt for saving her >life in CoS? And Ron and Harry would owe Hermione a life debt for >saving their lives in PS/SS, when she saved them from the Devils >Snare? Me: I think not. Other people have different theories, but I believe that in order for a life edbt to be created, the "saver" has to overcome a personal, emotional barrier that might stop him from saving the other person. It's created when "What is right" is chosen over "What is easy," or, in other words, what you'd actually like to do. So, Pettigrew would indeed have a life debt to Harry, because Harry couldn't care less if Pettigrew died. James hated (I assume) Snape, but saved him anyway. => life debt. Also, I think that this doesn't apply to people that have taking care of others in their job description. So, Snape saving Harry in the Quidditch match wouldn't create a life debt, since he's *supposed* to be protecting students. So, following this logic, Ginny doesn't have a life debt to Harry, and Ron and Harry don't have a life debt to Hermione. (How bad do you have to hate someone to *not* save him from a werewolf? Is this even possible?) Maria From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Fri Apr 25 16:02:45 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:02:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: TBAY: Lucius/Rita. No, not like that. Please. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030425160245.8715.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56137 "George, I'm parched!" announces Eileen. "A glass of Drambuie, if you please." "Coming up." Cindy looks at Eileen resentfully. "Are you even legal to drink?" she asks. "In Canada," says Eileen. "Probably in TBAY as well. Anyway, where's Derannimer? What is she playing at? Avery/Rita. I'm here to defend Aves from such insinuations." "No, not like that. Please," says Derannimer. "I'll take Avery completely separate from Rita, thankyou." "Derannimer's planning for Rita Skeeter to write the truth of Voldemort's return for Dumbledore," says Kirstini. "All I wanted to say was that the idea of her suddenly turning embedded reporter for Dumbledore seems a little out of character." "True," says Eileen. "She's evil, that woman is." "Evil!" cries Cindy. "I fed her into the Virtue-meter. It says she was just doing her job." "As far as I can recall, Cindy, that excuse has been deemed invalid in International Law. But perhaps she will write something that will end up helping Dumbledore. 'Oft evil will evil mar,' to quote a favourite author of mine." "She won't leave Hermione alone!" cries Cindy. "Is there anyone who thinks Rita Skeeter will suffer the indignity of being trapped in a jar by a kid, kidnapped to London and blackmailed into not practicing her trade yet do *nothing* to retaliate?" "No, I don't think so, Cindy," says Eileen. "But you've forgotten something..." "She heard it all about Voldemort coming back, and she's not exactly renowned for her ability to keep schtum, is she? Blackmail or no blackmail, there is no WAY she's going to sit tight on this one," Kirstini wrote. "I think she just might," says Eileen. "For OotP anyway." "That's out of character!" cries Cindy. "She owes Dumbledore one!" says Derannimer. "Why would she sit on the greatest story of her life?" asks Kirstini. "Because Hermione isn't the only one who's got Rita's number. I mean, would you be much afraid of Hermione?" "I most certainly wouldn't!" cries Cindy. "I wouldn't tangle with Lucius Malfoy, though," says Eileen. There is a long pause. "Guess who now knows that Rita's an animagus, as soon as Draco rushes home to tell everything..." Eileen ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Fri Apr 25 15:52:19 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 15:52:19 -0000 Subject: Class (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56138 Class To the tune of Class, from Chicago Hear a MIDI at: http://www.broadwaymidi.com/shows/chicago.html NOTE: This song was not included in the theatrical film release of Chicago (I would imagine, in order to avoid an R-rating), but it is included in the soundtrack (as a duet for Velma Kelly and "Mama" Morton), so I expect it will be on the DVD release. Dedicated to Amy Z (but only if she promises not to send me poisoned honey through the mail) THE SCENE: Late one night at Three Broomsticks. SNAPE & FILCH lament the passing of the good old days when students knew their place. SNAPE: (spoken) The wizarding world's gone soft. Things ain't what they used to be. FILCH: (spoken, shaking his head sadly) They sure ain't, Severus. They sure ain't. It's all gone. (music) Whatever happened to leg irons And hot pokers And things meaner? Why can't the caretaker now still pursue and harass The way we once did in class? SNAPE: Class. Whatever happened to, "No mercy!?" And "This may hurt?" And "How chilling?" Now, neither wizard or witch is allowed to amass The things we once used in class .. SNAPE & FILCH: Class! Now we've got gentlemen Like Albus Dumbledore He's forbid torture now, And punishments hardcore And we can neither flog nor scourge Each lad and lass It's never fun in class! FILCH: Whatever happened to cruel thumbscrews? SNAPE: And black bullwhips? FILCH: And good beatings? SNAPE: Now, we can only drop points when they're Giving us sass No torments happen in class .. FILCH: Class SNAPE & FILCH: Ah, there ain't no discipline That gives to us delight For a detention's not for one year Just a night SNAPE: And if you try to tan a hide, they're all aghast FILCH: And if you try to tan a hide, they're all aghast SNAPE & FILCH: It isn't fun in class! FILCH: All the students here today love pranks and theft SNAPE: Merlin's beard, ain't there no dementors left? SNAPE & FILCH: It isn't fun in class! SNAPE: What a joy `twas to watch FILCH: Punks we'd take down a notch SNAPE: With a strap! FILCH: With a strap! SNAPE: Now it's lame FILCH: Oh so lame SNAPE & FILCH: What became of class? - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From metslvr19 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 25 16:37:17 2003 From: metslvr19 at yahoo.com (Laura) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 16:37:17 -0000 Subject: Vampire Snape/Knowing Lucius was a DE/Remus as Spy (WAS: Thoughts and questions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56139 Elisabeth wrote: > > > I've been considering this whole question (Snape's reaction to Harry's mention of Lucius at the reunion at the end of GoF) and I had a new thought. (Sorry if this has been discussed ad infinitim). Here goes: what if Snape was convinced that Lucius had honestly renounced his association with Voldie? Does anyone other than Harry and Dobby know that Lucius gave Ginny the diary in CoS? What if this news really is a shock to him--Voldie does call Lucius "my slippery friend." Perhaps they are close friends--and/or Snape realizes what kind of problems Lucius could cause, being as powerful as he is. What do ya think? Is Snape truly shocked and disappointed at the news that a close friend (someone who might understand what it is like to be a former DE but to have rejected it) has betrayed him? Or is it just me being sleepy... > > > You're being sleepy. =) Although I honestly can't think of a more reasonable explanation, I just don't buy it. We're told over and over again just how cunning, devious, even brilliant Snape is. There are clues all over the place- he seems to be in charge of all potions in the school, and he seems to be right up there with Dumbledore and McGonagall in terms of power. He is described as knowing more about the Dark Arts when he came to Hogwarts than most upperclassmen. True, this was rather "dark" knowledge, but knowledge just the same. He figures out that Harry was on the staircase in his invisibility cloak the night Professor Moody saved Harry's you-know-what. He's also described as often having a "calculating" look in his eyes- we're given tons of clues throughout the story that Snape is no moron. My personal opinion is that he's rather brilliant (even if he is a complete jerk- stuff happens like that sometimes) I also seem to get the impression that Lucius has fooled precious few people. The guy in Borgin and Burkes comments on his, er, fondness of Dark objects, the Weasley's see right through him, everyone knows he was in with Voldemort. The only person I can recall every truly trusting the guy is Fudge- and we all know how *that* story goes. So I think you've got a good theory going there, but I just don't buy it. I can't seem to think what else the problem might be. Something interesting we don't yet know about the Malfoys? -Laura who would be grateful if anyone could steer her in the direction of some good speculation on this From grosich at nyc.rr.com Fri Apr 25 16:03:34 2003 From: grosich at nyc.rr.com (Gina Rosich) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:03:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Muggles and potions (Was: Snape's special title) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030425160334.24270.qmail@web13115.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56140 silencescreamsatme wrote: Wrote: This brings up an interesting question that I've never thought of until now. Because Potions doesn't require wand-work...when you get down to it, it's mixing and brewing certain ingredients together...do you think a Muggle would be able to make a Potion if given the recipe? Or am I so out of the field that you can't even see the ball anymore? lol ~Silence ME: I have been wondering that a lot myself. in PS/SS, Snape warns that some might not think it's magic because there is no "silly wand waving." But magic indeed it is. Perhaps you need magical ability to mix the ingredients without being injured, since some of the materials are caustic? Or maybe some of your magic is infused in the potions without using a wand. Or, perhaps there is some kind of incantation that gets recited over the cauldron, but we simply haven't been privvy to them? (Least likely). It's a very good question, and I would like an answer too. Gina :-) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hp_lexicon at yahoo.com Fri Apr 25 17:27:53 2003 From: hp_lexicon at yahoo.com (hp_lexicon) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 17:27:53 -0000 Subject: The Living Philosopher's Stone (Was: Re: The Spiritual Symbolism of HP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56141 This is the most incredible and delightful thread I've seen on this list for years. I was thoroughly engrossed in reading it through, so much so that I haven't been actually, you know, working for the last twenty minutes or so. So here's my question: Would it be okay with everyone involved if I would copy this entire synopsis of the discussion and create a page on the Lexicon for it? I really wont' do any editing, just plop the whole thing down in discussion form for people to read through. Fans of the Lexicon often remark about how they love the essays most of all, and this one will knock 'em dead! I would try to edit it into an essay, but it's more effective as a discussion, with ideas flowing and one bit of genius feeding into another. What do you think? Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon From hp_lexicon at yahoo.com Fri Apr 25 17:33:48 2003 From: hp_lexicon at yahoo.com (hp_lexicon) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 17:33:48 -0000 Subject: Muggles and potions In-Reply-To: <20030425160334.24270.qmail@web13115.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56142 > silencescreamsatme wrote: > Wrote: > > > This brings up an interesting question that I've never thought of > until now. Because Potions doesn't require wand-work...when you get > down to it, it's mixing and brewing certain ingredients together...do > you think a Muggle would be able to make a Potion if given the > recipe? If you think about the way Magical Beings are portrayed in the books, I think the answer can be guessed with some degree of certainty. A Wizard's magic is part of their physical makeup. It's not acquired or learned, it simply is. There is something unique about the body of a Wizard which, for example, affects the barrier to get to Platform Nine and Three-Quarters. A Wizard sees things that Muggles can't see. A Wizard doesn't get injured from falls or damage which would kill a Muggle (Neville "bounces down the garden walk," thereby letting his family know that he has Magical ability). Muggles aren't affected by Dementors the way Magical folk are, althought Muggles can sense the presence of those horrible creatures. That same "magical-ness" affects the creation of potions. A Muggle could mix the exact same ingredients and not create a potion. They don't have that magical-ness, that "aura," if you will, that infuses into a collection of otherwise inert ingredients and create a magical mixture. Like spells, this apparently required concentration of will, which explains why some powerful potions require such elaborate preparation. That detailed and meticulous preparation-- cutting daisy roots to exactly the correct length, for example-- focuses the mind and the intention of the Wizard for more powerful potions. We don't hear incantations because this is a different form of magic and uses different techniques to focus the mind. Different Wizards will have different levels of Magic when it comes to Potions just like they do for other things. Crouch Sr. was described as "powerfully magical," for example. This variation of power isn't just between one Wizard and another. Each individual Wizard has strenghts and weaknesses, which explains why Lupin, while certainly no slouch as Defense Against the Dark Arts, was "never much of a potion-maker." It also explains why Neville can be particularly strong in Herbology and poor at other things. The Magical Plants react to the aura of magic which a Wizard projects in the area of Herbology. That brings up an interesting point. Are magical plants magical to Muggles? I'd say no, they aren't. If a Muggle ate Gillyweed, they would not experience a magical effect (although it would undoubtedly do something to them). They don't have the magical aura that activates the magical properties of the plant. On the other hand, If a Wizard strong in Herbology ate Gillyweed, they might actually have an enhanced effect from it. This is speculation, of course, but it fits the facts as given in the books. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon From Dionysos at Dionysia.org Fri Apr 25 15:05:04 2003 From: Dionysos at Dionysia.org (Dan Delaney) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:05:04 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Freindship outside trio -Draco Malfoy - Snape/Black In-Reply-To: <6c.2cdb7cef.2bda9e41@aol.com> Message-ID: <4B564415-772F-11D7-8A5D-000A27E2A402@dionysia.org> No: HPFGUIDX 56143 On Friday, April 25, 2003, at 10:20 AM, JessaDrow at aol.com wrote: > Does this mean that Ginny would owe Harry a life debt for saving her > life in CoS? And Ron and Harry would owe Hermione a life debt for > saving their lives in PS/SS, when she saved them from the Devils > Snare? Good question. I saw that "life debt" thing not so much as one that occurs just because someone saves your life in a situation where you are in danger (as in the examples you stated), but rather when someone who is in the position to KILL you decides to SPARE your life. --Dan From innermurk at catlover.com Fri Apr 25 15:52:42 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 15:52:42 -0000 Subject: Harry & Lord Voldemort's Wands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56144 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall" wrote: > I've wondered about Priori Incantantem before, as well. Dumbledore > describes it as "a very rare effect," (ibid) which I don't get at > all. I mean, there are about a thousand kids at Hogwarts, right? > > Just how many unicorns, dragons, and phoenixes is Ollivander going > around plucking stuff from, anyways? It seems (to me) more than > likely to me that a lot of the wands he sells are 'brothers,' which > makes me skeptical about how 'rare' this effect actually is. > > My best guess is that people don't force their wands to do battle too > often. > > Anyways, good luck with the debate. > > -Tom My take on this was that Fawkes gave two feathers, but they came from the same place. He gave one, waited for it to grow back and then gave it again. This would make those feathers more closely related than any randomly picked feathers from the same bird right? So, when picking hair from a unicorn's tail, how easy would it be to find the *same* hair? This would make the brother effects on the wands a rare occurance....at least more so than if it was just required to be from the same animal/being/whatever. Innermurk From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Apr 25 17:59:17 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:59:17 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Freindship outside trio -Draco Malfoy - Snape/Black References: <4B564415-772F-11D7-8A5D-000A27E2A402@dionysia.org> Message-ID: <3EA97775.000001.68937@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 56145 On Friday, April 25, 2003, at 10:20 AM, JessaDrow at aol.com wrote: > Does this mean that Ginny would owe Harry a life debt for saving her > life in CoS? And Ron and Harry would owe Hermione a life debt for > saving their lives in PS/SS, when she saved them from the Devils > Snare? Then Dan answered - Good question. I saw that "life debt" thing not so much as one that occurs just because someone saves your life in a situation where you are in danger (as in the examples you stated), but rather when someone who is in the position to KILL you decides to SPARE your life. Now me - But Severus owes James a life debt - that's why he's trying so hard to keep Harry alive, although frankly I'd like to believe that's not the only reason he tried to save Harry when Quirrelmort was cursing his broom. I mean he's a teacher for goodness sake - if it weren't for the life debt would he really have let Harry fall? Anyway back to my point, James wasn't in a position to kill Snape, to let him die sure, but Remus would have been the one who killed him. And for that matter Harry didn't refrain from killing Pettigrew himself (well he did, bearing in mind how he went after Sirius at first but he wasn't the immediate threat at the point we assume the life debt occurred) he stopped Sirius and Remus from killing him. I'm not sure about the Ginny-Harry situation. I mean yes TR was draining the life from Ginny and Harry's actions stopped that but really he was saving his own life. I don't think it's as clear cut as the James-Severus and Harry-Peter situations. I'm not sure about the Hermione v the Devil's Snare thing either. I don't remember exactly how it went in the books (the way it went in the films would fit my 'it has to be direct intervention' theory since she just gave them the information to save themselves). I think she cast the spell that saved them - in which case it might fit the pattern. Although if she was saving herself in the process maybe not. K From hp_lexicon at yahoo.com Fri Apr 25 17:14:08 2003 From: hp_lexicon at yahoo.com (hp_lexicon) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 17:14:08 -0000 Subject: Muggles and potions In-Reply-To: <20030425160334.24270.qmail@web13115.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56146 > silencescreamsatme wrote: > Wrote: > > > This brings up an interesting question that I've never thought of > until now. Because Potions doesn't require wand-work...when you get > down to it, it's mixing and brewing certain ingredients together...do > you think a Muggle would be able to make a Potion if given the > recipe? If you think about the way Magical Beings are portrayed in the books, I think the answer can be guessed with some degree of certainty. A Wizard's magic is part of their physical makeup. It's not acquired or learned, it simply is. There is something unique about the body of a Wizard which, for example, affects the barrier to get to Platform Nine and Three-Quarters. A Wizard sees things that Muggles can't see. A Wizard doesn't get injured from falls or damage which would kill a Muggle (Neville "bounces down the garden walk," thereby letting his family know that he has Magical ability). Muggles aren't affected by Dementors the way Magical folk are, althought Muggles can sense the presence of those horrible creatures. That same "magical-ness" affects the creation of potions. A Muggle could mix the exact same ingredients and not create a potion. They don't have that magical-ness, that "aura," if you will, that infuses into a collection of otherwise inert ingredients and create a magical mixture. Like spells, this apparently required concentration of will, which explains why some powerful potions require such elaborate preparation. That detailed and meticulous preparation-- cutting daisy roots to exactly the correct length, for example-- focuses the mind and the intention of the Wizard for more powerful potions. We don't hear incantations because this is a different form of magic and uses different techniques to focus the mind. Different Wizards will have different levels of Magic when it comes to Potions just like they do for other things. Crouch Sr. was described as "powerfully magical," for example. This variation of power isn't just between one Wizard and another. Each individual Wizard has strenghts and weaknesses, which explains why Lupin, while certainly no slouch as Defense Against the Dark Arts, was "never much of a potion-maker." It also explains why Neville can be particularly strong in Herbology and poor at other things. The Magical Plants react to the aura of magic which a Wizard projects in the area of Herbology. That brings up an interesting point. Are magical plants magical to Muggles? I'd say no, they aren't. If a Muggle ate Gillyweed, they would not experience a magical effect (although it would undoubtedly do something to them). They don't have the magical aura that activates the magical properties of the plant. On the other hand, If a Wizard strong in Herbology ate Gillyweed, they might actually have an enhanced effect from it. This is speculation, of course, but it fits the facts as given in the books. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon From megruder at yahoo.com Fri Apr 25 17:24:18 2003 From: megruder at yahoo.com (Katie Meadows) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:24:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry & Lord Voldemort's Wands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030425172418.5717.qmail@web11205.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56147 Another thing to throw into the mix...Since the Phoenix dies and is reborn again and again, would it make a difference if the two feathers were collected at the same time or not? Just a thought. megruder --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From selene at earthlink.net Fri Apr 25 17:35:44 2003 From: selene at earthlink.net (Susan Fox-Davis) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:35:44 -0700 Subject: British foods [was RE: Pronunciation of 'Knut'] Message-ID: <3EA971F0.5E96C1E0@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 56148 imamommy wrote: <> Treacle is what we would call Molasses. Chipolatas are a kind of sausage. I really dig the subtle food magic in Harry Potter. Ever notice that Ron gets a "North Country" dialect when he's eating Yorkshire Pudding? What happens when you take a bite of a Spotted Dog Pudding? Woof! I also have a keen appreciation how Chocolate, the veritable Food of the Gods [theobroma] is the medically-approved panacea in the Harry Potter canon. JKR is not the only author who thinks so, either. [Study question: compare and contrast food magic in "Like Water for Chocolate" and "Chocolat".] Susan Fox-Davis, avowed theobromaniac Susan Fox-Davis From erinellii at yahoo.com Fri Apr 25 18:14:19 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:14:19 -0000 Subject: Lifedebts (was:Freindship outside trio ) In-Reply-To: <3EA97775.000001.68937@monica> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56149 I'm thinking that, in order to create a lifedebt, you have to not only save the other person's life, but you must put yourself in danger to do so. The two definite lifedebts we know of fit this. James Potter put himself in danger (from werewolf Lupin) to rescue Snape. Harry put himself in danger in the shrieking shack by jumping in front of the wands of two wizards about to perform the killing curse. The other life savings we know of don't. In PS/SS, when Snape saves Harry at the Quidditch match, there is no danger to Snape. When Hermione saves Harry and Ron, she had already stepped back from the Devil's Snare plant. She didn't have to reenter it to save Harry and Ron, and even if she had, she wouldn't have been in trouble. In CoS, yes, Harry has to kill a big snake. But the actual act that saves Ginny is the destruction of the diary. The means of destruction- plunging the poisionous fang through it- is not inherently dangerous to Harry. Erin From selene at earthlink.net Fri Apr 25 17:05:45 2003 From: selene at earthlink.net (Susan Fox-Davis) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:05:45 -0700 Subject: The Living Philosopher's Stone (Was: Re: The Spiritual Symbolism) Message-ID: <3EA96AE9.155D8821@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 56150 Bill collected many posts in this fabulous mystical thread. I apologize if I have mis-represented attributions, any errors are my own. I think it was Bill who observed: <(And, Dicentra, I'm not too worried about Eloise's protests either. `Cause even if yews always hang about graveyards, it's still Quite Significant that yew is V's wand wood.)> Yew is also a tree of Death. It is indeed planted in graveyards. It is the proverbial wood from which deadly bows are made for archers, for both war and hunting. In the Scandinavian runic system, its rune signifies death and endings. I really connect this Yew=Death aspect with Voldemort. Likewise, in the same mythos, Holly is a symbol of eternal life, being a protectively prickly evergreen with bright berries in the wintertime; just right for The Boy Who Lived! <> I am very keen on the parallels between Cinnabar [an ore of Mercury] and Dragon's Blood [resin of a certain palm tree]. If you have seen a chunk of these substances, you notice that they are somewhat similar looking. Cinnabar is usually much lighter in color but I certainly see how they could get crossed up. Susan Fox-Davis From manawydan at ntlworld.com Fri Apr 25 18:20:41 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 19:20:41 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dean Thomas References: <1051294135.9818.15213.m9@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002101c30b57$615dbfa0$d04d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 56151 Emma asked: >I was wondering if anyone out there had the references to the changes >in the description of Dean Thomas between the English and American >editions? I would be interested in this also. The Lexicon refers to Dean as being black but I don't remember any reference in canon to this. He supports West Ham and his dad is a milkman (which led to me forming the mental impression that he was a Londoner and (given his surname and the historical association between Welsh exiles and the London milk trade) of Welsh descent. But it's obviously established that this is not so, though I don't remember any reference explaining this. Though I have to admit that when I read the description of Lee Jordan, I immediately formed the mental picture of his being a crusty! Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From innermurk at catlover.com Fri Apr 25 17:31:21 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 17:31:21 -0000 Subject: Harry & Lord Voldemort's Wands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56152 Yahoomort seems to have eaten my post, so I'm trying again. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall" wrote: > I've wondered about Priori Incantantem before, as well. Dumbledore > describes it as "a very rare effect," (ibid) which I don't get at > all. I mean, there are about a thousand kids at Hogwarts, right? > > Just how many unicorns, dragons, and phoenixes is Ollivander going > around plucking stuff from, anyways? It seems (to me) more than > likely to me that a lot of the wands he sells are 'brothers,' which > makes me skeptical about how 'rare' this effect actually is. > > My best guess is that people don't force their wands to do battle too > often. > > Anyways, good luck with the debate. > > -Tom I've always thought that for a wand to be a brother, there was more to the core than just coming from the same animal. I thought that Fawkes gave a feather from his tail, waited for that feather to grow back, and then gave it again. This forms a closer bond to the feathers since they're essentially the *same* feather, even though they're different. It would make them more closely related than just another feather from anywhere on the same bird. This would make the priori incantatum effect a rare occurance, because I'm sure that getting the same hair from a unicorn's tail, or the same heartstring from a dragon would prove difficult and in the later case, impossible. The chances of meeting a brother wand would then become slim. Also, I thought the wood would come into play as well. Previous posts have shown us how closely related the Holly and Yew are. Both have descriptions of death/rebirth/life. This would relate the wands as well as their cores right? Just my take on it. Innermurk From golden_faile at yahoo.com Fri Apr 25 19:02:27 2003 From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:02:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dean Thomas In-Reply-To: <002101c30b57$615dbfa0$d04d6551@f3b7j4> Message-ID: <20030425190227.31184.qmail@web41104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56153 manawydan wrote: Emma asked: >I was wondering if anyone out there had the references to the changes >in the description of Dean Thomas between the English and American >editions? I would be interested in this also. The Lexicon refers to Dean as being black but I don't remember any reference in canon to this. He supports West Ham and his dad is a milkman (which led to me forming the mental impression that he was a Londoner and (given his surname and the historical association between Welsh exiles and the London milk trade) of Welsh descent. Laila: I thought that it was Collin Creevey that's dad was a milkman. I will have to look for the description of Dean in my book. The only thing that I remember them saying was that he was tall, black, and supported West Ham. You said (sorry not sure which of you it was noW!: When I got the descripion of Lee Jordan, I immediately formed the mental picture of his being a crusty! Laila: Okay... What in the heck is a crusty?!!! It sounds like some sort of skin disorder! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ivanova at idcnet.com Fri Apr 25 18:23:30 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:23:30 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Parallels with the last war against Voldemort? And more Ron thoughts References: Message-ID: <001001c30b57$c6b02a00$7eccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 56154 In a way, the trio is a younger version of the Marauders. They say that history likes to repeat itself, and I think it's trying to do so here. First we have Harry, who looks remarkably like James and must at least somewhat act like James, too, since Snape keeps telling him he's JUST like his father. Harry is the leader of his group and is good at Quidditch. Although not popular in the same way as James, he is famous, if only for doing something he doesn't remember doing. Next we have Ron. Ron believes in stereotypes, at least unless confronted with concrete evidence to refute it (Hagrid, Lupin). And, although Draco and Harry automatically hate each other, Ron and Draco seem to have their own hatred for each other which has nothing to do with Harry. However, he is arguably Harry's most loyal friend, and I truly believe he would do anything for him. Ron does remind me quite a bit of Sirius Black. Third we have Hermione. Her resemblance to her counterpart isn't as strong, but it's there. Lupin stood out from the other students because he was a werewolf. Granted, the student body did not know this, but *he* knew it, and although he was liked because he was a friend of James's (and, I'm sure, because he was a nice guy), I can see everyone thinking there was something else about him, but they couldn't put their finger on it. Hermione, aside from being super-smart and therefore standing out in that way, is also Muggle-born. Again, most people treat her the same as they would any other witch, but that is something that could set her apart, as Lupin's werewolfness. Also, it seems to me that Lupin was the more logical, calming influence on the group, which would need it with Sirius, who I see as being the quite the impulsive hothead (the prank). Hermione serves as this on her group, being the counter to Ron. As for hatreds, Draco hates her simply because she is a "Mudblood," Snape hates Lupin simply because he is a werewolf. And then there is Neville. Unfortunately for Neville, he does seem to be paralleling Peter Pettigrew somewhat. He is friends with the main three, but not really a part of their group. The main group, however, has a special place in their hearts for Neville. Neville has a reputation for not being good at magic and being easily intimidated and bullied. And then there is Draco. He was somewhat covered above. His hatred for Harry, Ron, and Hermione and the forms it takes to the indiviual people seems to mirror Snape's hatreds for the Marauders. We haven't heard much about Snape's hatred for Peter, but one can imagine him finding easy prey in Peter, and being foiled in taunting him by James. Draco is the boy in their year with the dark reputation. Although his reputation is more because of who his father is, his attitude doesn't help him any in that regard. I don't believe history will repeat itself, but it makes me wonder if any other parallels will present itself. Will Ron be suspected of doing something he didn't do? Will Neville find himself in the position Peter once did? In answer to that latter question, I think that if he does, he won't turn like Peter did. He has more of a backbone, and he knows what the DE's did to his parents. One last thing on Ron. I've seen discussion on his stereotypes and how he does not think things through except when playing chess. Maybe Ron's position in the upcoming war will end up being tactical advisor? I believe that Dumbledore will not survive the series, and therefore someone else will have to lead the war. Harry will most likely be the visible focal point (like Dumbledore was in the last war), but Ron could very well be the one planning all the strategies, being the General behind the scenes. I've been calling him General Weasley since reading GoF and then rereading SS/PS. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From JessaDrow at aol.com Fri Apr 25 19:19:26 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 15:19:26 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Parallels with the last war against Voldemort? And more ... Message-ID: <146.ffc1873.2bdae43e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56155 In a message dated 4/25/03 3:16:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ivanova at idcnet.com writes: > And then there is Neville. Unfortunately for Neville, he does seem to be > paralleling Peter Pettigrew somewhat. He is friends with the main three, > but not really a part of their group. The main group, however, has a > special place in their hearts for Neville. Neville has a reputation for > not > being good at magic and being easily intimidated and bullied. > I don't know, I have a feeling Neville is going to play an important part in the upcoming books. ~Faith!~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gishdaydream at hotmail.com Fri Apr 25 18:41:26 2003 From: gishdaydream at hotmail.com (gishstar1) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:41:26 -0000 Subject: Longbottoms, St. Mungos, Lucius, and Celestina... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56156 Ok, so I'm new to the 'group' but I have some huge questions that I've wanted to discuss with people who are just as obsessed and concerned as I am and I wasn't sure where to look up past topics... so if this one has already been discussed I deeply apologize and just direct me in the right direction... ha.. ok ... so here goes. I have a few theories... but this is one of them that I have been longing to discuss with others. Ok, so we know that the Longbottoms are at Saint Mungos... because someone put the crucatious curse on them and it's heavily affected them and their memeories... I have reason so suspect that Neville was hit with "obilivate" (sp?) as a young baby... now... who would want a baby to forget something? AND! what could the effects of a memory spell have on a baby? ... J.K. keeps mentioning and reminding us that Neville is very forgetful... hmmm... there's got to be a reason for that. Ok... something else to muse upon... Saint Mungos... we know that the Longbottoms are at the hospital can't remember a thing, or themselves... I think someone is preventing them from getting better. Why would I say that? My theory is becaues Lucius Malfoy donates to Saint Mungos Hospital. (as stated in Book 4 at the start of the Quidditch World Cup by Cornelius Fudge) and who do we all know that Mr. Malfoy is associated with??? Voldemort! Now, is Lucius donating out of the pureness of his heart? (ha!) or is it because he's paying to make sure that certain somebodies don't recover from their 'injuries'. Let it be known as well, Voldemort said (and we can never take what he says serious because he's almost always lying... but we are very certain that he is aware when people are lying to him) that once someone has had a memory charm put on them and to alter that to make them remember harms that person and they are no longer ... uhmm i can't think of the word... but it's not good... they're like not people anymore... but like they're memories are permantly damaged and they aren't (he put it as useful) well, they aren't human anymore... they just have perpetual Alzheimers... anycrud... So... to make Neville remember would be putting him in danger of his life... that's what I'm getting from that statement... BUT we also know of another certain somebody that is donating to this hospital.. Celestina Warbeck and if she's donating and Lucius is donating... I dont think anyone by the names of Mr. and Mrs. Longbottom are going to ever get better... *sob* ... oh well. well not 'oh well' but yeah... In 'OoP' maybe we'll find out maybe we won't... oh and let me know if this was already discussed... thanks.. Ari From ivanova at idcnet.com Fri Apr 25 18:01:04 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:01:04 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Freindship outside trio -Draco Malfoy - Snape/Black References: Message-ID: <000e01c30b54$a4391a70$7eccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 56157 darrin_burnett: >For this parallel to work, Draco is going to have to do something to >earn the trust of Dumbledore, just as Snape did. And it's going to >have to be big. If Dumbledore approves, then Harry will grudgingly go >along, but not before. Not necessarily. I see Harry making more and more judgments on his own without necessarily going to Dumbledore about them first. He has already shown this propensity. *IF* Harry and Draco ever work together, Harry will trust/not trust Harry on Harry's own terms. I don't see Dumbledore being involved in this. Also, if we want to discuss parallels, then Draco would have to have a huge reason to place his trust in Dumbledore, as Snape did. I don't see Draco doing this, either. If Harry and Draco work together, I feel it will be a short-lived alliance strictly on their own terms and probably only because they find some benefit in it. Unless Draco makes a radical change for the better, and from what little I've seen of J. K. interviews, it doesn't sound like they will be working together in any case. >As for me, I'd rather see Draco go the other way. I'd rather see him >out-Lucius Lucius. I'd like him to take a look at the full extent of >his father's activities and say with an evil laugh, "Well, that's >very good, Dad, but how about THIS?" I find myself anticipating more and more what will happen to Draco. I feel he is at a very pivotal moment. To this point, he has not done anything truly evil. Yes, he has been nasty, but to the best of our knowledge he has not been actively involved in DE activities, if only because Lucius hasn't allowed him to. Draco thinks picking on Muggle-borns is cool, and has pretty much adopted his father's attitudes. But how much of this is because this is what Draco *himself* truly believes, and how much of it is because he looks up to his father and will do anything to win his respect and/or love? A lot of the time I get the impression Draco does things because Daddy would think it's cool or would approve. I think OoP will be his critical book. He will be fifteen years old. I feel he will choose, once and for all, the path he wishes to trod upon for himself. Unfortunately, I do feel it will be the same as his father's, but a part of me hopes he finds another path. Whether that one will lead him to one closer to Harry's is yet another story. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova/ From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Fri Apr 25 19:22:39 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 15:22:39 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What is Canon? References: Message-ID: <000a01c30b60$09705ab0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56158 Tom wrote: > For the purposes of our list here, I totally concur that we > definitely need an established set of materials that we can accept > as `what-is-the-case,' so that we can debate and reason from there > forward. I suppose the Lexicon would be that starting point, although i just looked at it for the first time today, so i'm not sure of everything it contains as of yet. Here is the URL for it if you want to check it out: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/ I'm a little confused though. Steve, the writer of the Lexicon, uses the following as his list of "canon" sources: 1) the novels and the "school books" (Fantastic Beasts and Quidditch Through the Ages) 2) the illustrations in the "school books" (which were drawn by Rowling herself) but not the pictures in the novels 3) interviews with Rowling where her actual words are given 4) sections of the film/games/etc. which are known to be written by or okayed by Rowling (so far the flashback sequence in SS/f showing Lily's death is the only information that fits this criteria that we know of) I agree with #1 and #2 as being "canon," but #'s 3 and 4 i would only consider "pseudo-canon"...and that, only AFTER the series is complete. I believe that is the general consensus that we reached, but i could be wrong. > I don't dispute that canon should be the four books, in reverse > order. I'd actually argue that this should be considered canon > *exclusively,* with movies, games, and merchandise considered `pseudo- > canon,' to use someone's term from earlier this discussion. I absolutely agree. > As for fanfiction, as far as I'm concerned it's fun to read/write, > but has no credibility whatsoever. I'm not ragging on the fanfic > community out there, incidentally. What I'm saying is that the > possibilities that people come up with are interesting, but I don't > accept them as in any way indicative of the truths of the Potterverse > as we know them. Agreed again. > And as for the interviews, I like Katy's distinction: `more > important' vs. `more canon.' In that sense, I agree - the interviews > can reveal stuff that is to come, and that we might never see in a > book. In that sense, "importance" is a very good way to describe how > I feel about the interviews. But when it comes down to it, can they > be hard-core canon? I'm not so sure. It was really hard for me to finally admit to myself that her interviews do not fit the definition of "canon" because it's so hard to distinguish between "fact" and "canon." But they ARE two different things. And while i'd LIKE to use a stronger word for JKR's spoken words than "pseudo-canon," it's the closest word i've come to that 'fits.' > No matter what, they're not the books themselves. I think you're > right on the money here. To have group dialogue, we need standards, > and as Steve points out, the interviews aren't coordinated or > consistent enough to warrant treatment as `established fact.' I agree that standards should be set for the fandom. Not to alleviate discussion - but to minimize confusion. For example, if there were a page of "facts" (some canon and some pseudo-canon), it would be nice if they were, say, color-coded...canon fact in blue and pseudo-canon fact in green or some such. And the green facts could have the source that they were derived from mentioned at the end of the statement. I'm not sure who would do this or where it would be kept..but i think it would be helpful. > -Tom, who thinks that the rules of `canon' that our list has > established are fantastic, and who is fascinated by this discussion > as he has never been involved with other `fandoms' prior to this one. It is a fascinating subject, because it's different for each fandom. All fandoms based on novels would probably fit the canon definition we've arrived at here...but fandoms based on movies and tv shows are in a league all their own. ~Katy~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hp_lexicon at yahoo.com Fri Apr 25 19:42:35 2003 From: hp_lexicon at yahoo.com (hp_lexicon) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 19:42:35 -0000 Subject: What is Canon? In-Reply-To: <000a01c30b60$09705ab0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56159 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Katy Cartee" wrote: > I suppose the Lexicon would be that starting point, although i just looked at it for the first time today, so i'm not sure of everything it contains as of yet. Here is the URL for it if you want to check it out: > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/ > > I'm a little confused though. Steve, the writer of the Lexicon, uses the following as his list of "canon" sources: > > 1) the novels and the "school books" (Fantastic Beasts and Quidditch Through the Ages) > 2) the illustrations in the "school books" (which were drawn by Rowling herself) but not the pictures in the novels > 3) interviews with Rowling where her actual words are given > 4) sections of the film/games/etc. which are known to be written by or okayed by Rowling (so far the flashback sequence in SS/f showing Lily's death is the only information that fits this criteria that we know of) It's important to understand why I define canon at all. I am forced constantly to make decisions about what facts to include in the Lexicon andd what to leave out. I try extremely hard to avoid the kind of interpolations and guesses that are the heart and soul of this list. I do that not to suggest that they aren't worth doing -- I LOVE that sort of thing. But for the Lexicon, I need to have criteria by which I decide what will be included and what won't. So my definition of canon will probably not work for this list. I don't have any use for "pseudo-canon"...it either fits in the Lexicon or it doesn't. So I'm a little more matter of fact about it. If Rowling said it, it's canon; if she didn't, it isn't. Since she wrote the list of Famous Witches and Wizards for the computer games, they are canon, even though they don't agree with some facts in other sources. In my way of defining things, I list both. I'm sure you can see where listing both wouldn't cut it for your purposes. But for something like the Lexicon, it works. Steve of the Lexicon From bard7696 at aol.com Fri Apr 25 19:51:02 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 19:51:02 -0000 Subject: Freindship outside trio -Draco Malfoy - Snape/Black In-Reply-To: <000e01c30b54$a4391a70$7eccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56160 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly Grosskreutz" wrote: > darrin_burnett: > > >For this parallel to work, Draco is going to have to do something to > >earn the trust of Dumbledore, just as Snape did. And it's going to > >have to be big. If Dumbledore approves, then Harry will grudgingly go > >along, but not before. > Kelly: > Not necessarily. I see Harry making more and more judgments on his own > without necessarily going to Dumbledore about them first. He has already > shown this propensity. *IF* Harry and Draco ever work together, Harry will > trust/not trust Harry on Harry's own terms. I don't see Dumbledore being > involved in this. The parallel was: Snape is to Sirius as Draco is to Harry. Snape and Sirius only shook hands after Dumbledore essentially ordered them to, and they are adults. I really don't see Harry working with Draco unless Dumbledore says it's necessary to the cause. So, for the parallel to work, Dumbledore would have to get involved. Also, if we want to discuss parallels, then Draco would > have to have a huge reason to place his trust in Dumbledore, as Snape did. > I don't see Draco doing this, either. If Harry and Draco work together, I > feel it will be a short-lived alliance strictly on their own terms and > probably only because they find some benefit in it. Unless Draco makes a > radical change for the better, and from what little I've seen of J. K. > interviews, it doesn't sound like they will be working together in any case. > Like I said, the series needs villains. Harry has got Ron, Hermione, the entire Weasley clan (save perhaps Percy), Sirius, Lupin, Hagrid, and the rest of the old crowd, not to mention all of Gryffindor and maybe the ghosts of his parents. We'd need to see a definite need Draco could fill before Harry decides to trust him enough to do something without Dumbledore. For me, I'd rather see Draco grow up to be like father, like son. We still need bad guys. > I find myself anticipating more and more what will happen to Draco. I feel > he is at a very pivotal moment. To this point, he has not done anything > truly evil. Yes, he has been nasty, but to the best of our knowledge he has > not been actively involved in DE activities, if only because Lucius hasn't > allowed him to. Draco, I'd argue, has evil in his head. It's not just "picking on" Muggle-borns. It's openly advocating their slaughter. Big difference. His views are Lucius' views at this point. I'd agree with that. But, I'd also argue that by age 14, you should be forming that path. I don't know what is magic, pardon the pun, about age 15 being the turning point. Draco seems already on the path to me. Now, something could DRIVE him from that path, much the same way something might have knocked Snape from that path. But I think he has had time to stray from it on his own. Perhaps this is where Narcissa would come into play. My own fun little theory is that Narcissa has Muggle blood and has kept it from Lucius. Perhaps Draco wouldn't be so quick to advocate his mother getting killed. (Or, like Tom Riddle, would be willing to kill her himself.) Darrin -- Straying From the Path would be a good name for a band From a_rude_mechanical at yahoo.com Fri Apr 25 20:12:32 2003 From: a_rude_mechanical at yahoo.com (a_rude_mechanical) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 20:12:32 -0000 Subject: Lucius, my slippery friend (Was: Knowing Lucius was a DE) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56161 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Laura" wrote: I can't seem to think what else the problem might be. Something > interesting we don't yet know about the Malfoys? > > -Laura > who would be grateful if anyone could steer her in the direction of > some good speculation on this (This, by the way, is concerning Snape's reaction to the news that Lucius was present at the reunion of DEs at the end of GoF). When I try to think about his, I end up raising more questions then answers. There's so much more that needs to be filled in before I can make a call here. Like, what's up with Snape, anyway? For example, if he just truly is a "slimy git," perhaps he is close friends with the Malfoys, and the news was a shock. If he is sort of playing a part (which is a pet theory of mine) then perhaps he's concerned. Perhaps Snape is just well aware of Lucius' power within the wizarding community (his influence over Fudge, his position within the ministry), his secret stash of dark goodies under his drawing room floor, and his knowledge of Snape's past. Which brings me to another question, one that just hit me. It is common knowledge that Snape turned spy for Dumbledore, correct? Then why would the Malfoys be content with his presence at Hogwarts? Why doesn't Lucius have him removed? Hmmm... Love to hear what y'all have to say about this!! Elisabeth From ivanova at idcnet.com Fri Apr 25 20:05:42 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 15:05:42 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Freindship outside trio -Draco Malfoy - Snape/Black References: Message-ID: <004501c30b66$0d96c420$7eccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 56162 From: darrin_burnett >From Me: > I find myself anticipating more and more what will happen to Draco. I feel > he is at a very pivotal moment. To this point, he has not done anything > truly evil. Yes, he has been nasty, but to the best of our knowledge he has > not been actively involved in DE activities, if only because Lucius hasn't > allowed him to. From: darrin_burnett Draco, I'd argue, has evil in his head. It's not just "picking on" Muggle-borns. It's openly advocating their slaughter. Big difference. His views are Lucius' views at this point. I'd agree with that. But, I'd also argue that by age 14, you should be forming that path. I don't know what is magic, pardon the pun, about age 15 being the turning point. Draco seems already on the path to me. >From Me: I guess what I meant is he has not done anything irrevocably evil yet, like his father has. I didn't mean to imply that 15 was some "magical" turning point age. But this book may be so for Draco. After all, aside from his time at Hogwarts, of which he spends most of that time with like-minded Slytherins, he has been very heavily under his father's influence. Therefore, it might take him longer to truly make the choice for himself. I agree that he already has at least a toe over the line to Dark Side, but I'm just saying he hasn't completely stepped over that line. Maybe the summer before their 5th year at Hogwarts, his father will recruit him to do some nastier things, and his actively committing acts of evil will push him over. >From darrin_burnett: Now, something could DRIVE him from that path, much the same way something might have knocked Snape from that path. But I think he has had time to stray from it on his own. >From Me: Yeah, he has had time to choose differently. Yeah, he has begun to walk down it. I'm just saying I don't think it's a firm thing yet, and he could choose differently. Of course, he COULD always do a Snape and realize after he's gone quite a ways down it he was wrong and do what he can to get onto a different path, but I still feel he's at a very critical time. This could be his last chance to choose a different path without facing any of the consequences or hardships that I feel Snape has faced and is still facing because he was so entrenched before "seeing the light." Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From william.truderung at sympatico.ca Fri Apr 25 20:22:56 2003 From: william.truderung at sympatico.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 20:22:56 -0000 Subject: The Living Philosopher's Stone (Was: Re: The Spiritual Symbolism of HP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56163 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hp_lexicon" wrote: > This is the most incredible and delightful thread I've seen on this > list for years. I was thoroughly engrossed in reading it through, so > much so that I haven't been actually, you know, working for the last > twenty minutes or so. > > So here's my question: > Would it be okay with everyone involved if I would copy this entire > synopsis of the discussion and create a page on the Lexicon for it? > I really wont' do any editing, just plop the whole thing down in > discussion form for people to read through. Fans of the Lexicon > often remark about how they love the essays most of all, and this > one will knock 'em dead! I would try to edit it into an essay, but > it's more effective as a discussion, with ideas flowing and one bit > of genius feeding into another. > > What do you think? > > Steve Vander Ark > The Harry Potter Lexicon I have often thought that it was a terrible shame that so many wonderful posts to this board end up buried deep in the archives, never to be seen again. I myself have participated in, or simply read, many threads which delved into symbolism, foreshadowing, ect. in the HP books. Sadly, this board has little in the way of search functions, so most have never been seen again. It would be a monumental task to re-read every post to this board, but if somebody were to do so, marking out the 'significant' posts along the way, it would be of enormous value. This would be a HUGE task, as this board is currently using 197 MB, compared to the 90 KB for 15 000 words of my post. By simple algebra, 197 MB would be roughly 33 million words, in over 56 000 posts - 600 words per post. The actual value would be something less than this number - maybe half, which is still greater than 15 million words. Now, regarding the collected posts that you are referring to, many of the original posters are still active on this board, and can speak for themselves. As for myself, I have no problem with the idea, as this would keep the ideas discussed in them in public view. However, I should point out that this was an abridged version of the original posts, with much of the incidental back-and-forth chatter removed. Bill From rane_ab at hotmail.com Fri Apr 25 20:18:26 2003 From: rane_ab at hotmail.com (rane_ab) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 20:18:26 -0000 Subject: Vampire Snape/Knowing Lucius was a DE/Remus as Spy (WAS: Thoughts and questions) In-Reply-To: <20030424213029.XAXP28930.out004.verizon.net@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56164 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, wrote: Gremlin wrote: > > Canon for Lupin assigning the vampire essay. Set-up: Harry is trying to sneak off to Hogsmeade when he runs into Neville, who is barred from Hogsmeade for leaving the passwords to Gryffendor Tower lying around. Harry has just asked Neville what he's doing: > "'Nothing ,' shrugged Neville. 'Want a game of exploding Snap?' > 'Er--not now--I was going to go to the library and do that vampire essay for Lupin--'" > > Lupin actually did assign the vampire essay. However, the conversation continues: > > "'I'll come with you!' Neville said brightly. 'I haven't done it either!' > 'Er--hang on--yeah, I forgot, I finished it last night!' > 'Great, you can help me!' said Neville, his round face anxious. 'I don't understand that thing about garlic at all--do they have to eat it, or--' > He broke off with a small gasp, looking over Harry's shoulder. > It was Snape. Neville took a quick step behind Harry." > > Whether Neville stopped talking because he's afraid of Snape, or whether he stopped talking because he believes Snape is a vampire and was afraid he would offend Snape is not clear. > Thanks very much for pointing this out. You'd think that after reading PoA three times, I'd have noticed this... I guess I'm a bit slow on the uptake. I still think it's weird though that Lupin actually assigned this particular essay (for reasons previously mentioned), and I find it most intriguing that Moody doesn't mention vampires while recpitulating what the students learnt the previous year. Did J.K. forget, or did Lupin, in sending his letter to Moody? > I am of the camp that believes Snape is *not* a vampire. However, maybe 'vampire' was a name used to tease Snape when he was in school, and Lupin knows this. He does resemble one in looks and personality. And Neville is deathly afraid of Snape. I found the vampire name- calling in a fanfic, but maybe that's why Lupin assigned the essay. He wanted to get back at Snape, because MWPP used to call Snape a vampire, and it ignites old memories for Snape. Just my thoughts. > Yes, it was suggested in Barb's HP & the Psychic Serpent that Snape was teased about this (just a fanfic idea); perhaps also in some other fanfic. I can't imagine, though, Snape gliding and sweeping around the place as much as a student as he does as a teacher. Though I suppose he must have some natural "grace", being a teenager, I don't think h was quite that melodramatic. Which is, of course, very arguable. Just my idea. It is quite possible he got teased for it, after all. Still doesn't explain why Lupin assigned the essay in the first place. Kind greetings, Rane Who is very much impressed with how quickly people react on this site. From bard7696 at aol.com Fri Apr 25 20:27:44 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 20:27:44 -0000 Subject: Lucius, my slippery friend (Was: Knowing Lucius was a DE) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56165 Elisabeth: > > Which brings me to another question, one that just hit me. It is > common knowledge that Snape turned spy for Dumbledore, correct? Then > why would the Malfoys be content with his presence at Hogwarts? Why > doesn't Lucius have him removed? Hmmm... > It seems to be common knowledge. Dumbledore openly said it in court during Karakoff's trial. Perhaps not every wizard knows it, but one would think Malfoy would have been able to find out easily enough. And, as has been pointed out, when Voldemort was possessing Quirrell, Snape was working against him. So, Voldemort certainly should know. As for the second part, why tolerate Snape. It's always been played that the DEs did not know for sure if Voldermort would come back. Unless Lucius knew for sure that V-Mort was coming back, why bother fighting Snape, especially since Dumbledore seems to have protected him? The DEs seemed to take an "every man for himself" attitude when V- Mort fell. And Snape has openly favored Slytherins and bereated muggle-borns like Hermione for the last four years, which Draco surely was reporting back to his dad, so he fits the ideal teacher in Lucius' mind in that regard. I also like the idea of Snape really hating Gryffindors,and muggle-borns, but just not willing to have them all killed, like V-Mort and Lucius wants. Now, how Lucius feels about Snape being head of his son's house now that V-Mort is back is a good question... Darrin -- Every Death Eater for Himself would be a good name for song From william.truderung at sympatico.ca Fri Apr 25 20:35:56 2003 From: william.truderung at sympatico.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 20:35:56 -0000 Subject: The Living Philosopher's Stone (Was: Re: The Spiritual Symbolism) In-Reply-To: <3EA96AE9.155D8821@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56166 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susan Fox-Davis wrote: 'Bill collected many posts in this fabulous mystical thread. I apologize if I have mis-represented attributions, any errors are my own. I think it was Bill who observed: <(And, Dicentra, I'm not too worried about Eloise's protests either. `Cause even if yews always hang about graveyards, it's still Quite Significant that yew is V's wand wood.)> Yew is also a tree of Death. It is indeed planted in graveyards. It is the proverbial wood from which deadly bows are made for archers, for both war and hunting. In the Scandinavian runic system, its rune signifies death and endings. I really connect this Yew=Death aspect with Voldemort. Likewise, in the same mythos, Holly is a symbol of eternal life, being a protectively prickly evergreen with bright berries in the wintertime; just right for The Boy Who Lived! <> I am very keen on the parallels between Cinnabar [an ore of Mercury] and Dragon's Blood [resin of a certain palm tree]. If you have seen a chunk of these substances, you notice that they are somewhat similar looking. Cinnabar is usually much lighter in color but I certainly see how they could get crossed up. Susan Fox-Davis' Me: Actually, that was cmf_usc (Caroline) who made that observation. All I did was collect the original posts. I do believe that the reference to Dumbledore's greatest achievements is very important to the underlying story: 'Considered by many the greatest wizard of modern times, Dumbledore is particularly famous for his defeat of the dark wizard Grindelwald in 1945, for the discovery of the twelve uses of dragon's blood and his work on alchemy with his partner, Nicolas Flamel.' I think that all three achievements may end up being central to the story by the end of book seven. The third, of course, has already played a large role in PS. Bill From rane_ab at hotmail.com Fri Apr 25 20:01:04 2003 From: rane_ab at hotmail.com (rane_ab) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 20:01:04 -0000 Subject: Vampire Snape/Knowing Lucius was a DE/Remus as Spy (WAS: Thoughts and questions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56167 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Laura" wrote: > > > > > > > You're being sleepy. =) > > Although I honestly can't think of a more reasonable explanation, I > just don't buy it. We're told over and over again just how cunning, > devious, even brilliant Snape is. There are clues all over the place- > he seems to be in charge of all potions in the school, and he seems > to be right up there with Dumbledore and McGonagall in terms of > power. He is described as knowing more about the Dark Arts when he > came to Hogwarts than most upperclassmen. True, this was > rather "dark" knowledge, but knowledge just the same. He figures out > that Harry was on the staircase in his invisibility cloak the night > Professor Moody saved Harry's you-know-what. Er... No offence, but it seems to me Snape likes to blame *everything* on Harry. Probably, when anything goes wrong, his first thought is *Potter*. It just si happens he is often right. As the stories are almost completely form Harry's point of view, we only *get* to see the parts where he is actually right (or at least looking in the right direction). Though I have no doubt Snape has a ready mind, he seems to let it be obscured by many, many prejudices. > I also seem to get the impression that Lucius has fooled precious few > people. The guy in Borgin and Burkes comments on his, er, fondness > of Dark objects, the Weasley's see right through him, everyone knows > he was in with Voldemort. The only person I can recall every truly > trusting the guy is Fudge- and we all know how *that* story goes. > About the Weasley twins: let's not forget they're Arthur Weasly's sons. Who works for the Ministry. And is, as such, convinced Lucius had sth to hide. Not that I deny he is probably right, but I was just thinking that as AW's sons, they're probably more priviledged to much more info than many of the other wizards. As to the guy at B&B... Well, obviously, Lucius has been knwown to buy some dark objects from the place earlier. Come to think of it, just the fact that he actually steps into the store proves to the man behing the counter that he is, indeed, a dark wizard. It has been mentioned before that there are "rumors" about Lucius. But then, that's all they were. There are no specifications to exactly how credible those rumours were; especially as, after LV's downfall, there must have been many rumours indeed. Which to believe or which not to - that is a problem even Harry faces. Also, the fact that he might be known to have preferences for Dark Magic don't immediately lead to the conclusion that he is a DE. I mean, LV is hardly the only representative of Dark Magic. It must have existed many centuries before even Tom Riddle was born - there is no reason to believe that all Dark Magic practisers were LV's minions. Just some thoughts, though you may well be right, Cheerful greetings, Rane. From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Fri Apr 25 20:50:03 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 16:50:03 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What is Canon? References: Message-ID: <007d01c30b6c$40774e40$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56168 Lexicon Steve wrote: > It's important to understand why I define canon at all. I am forced > constantly to make decisions about what facts to include in the > Lexicon andd what to leave out. I try extremely hard to avoid the > kind of interpolations and guesses that are the heart and soul of > this list. I do that not to suggest that they aren't worth doing -- > I LOVE that sort of thing. But for the Lexicon, I need to have > criteria by which I decide what will be included and what won't. So > my definition of canon will probably not work for this list. I don't > have any use for "pseudo-canon"...it either fits in the Lexicon or > it doesn't. So I'm a little more matter of fact about it. If Rowling > said it, it's canon; if she didn't, it isn't. Since she wrote the > list of Famous Witches and Wizards for the computer games, they are > canon, even though they don't agree with some facts in other > sources. In my way of defining things, I list both. I'm sure you can > see where listing both wouldn't cut it for your purposes. But for > something like the Lexicon, it works. As long as you cite where both came from, i see no problem in what you're doing. After looking through your lexicon a bit more, i see that you almost always reference where information originated. And i think that's wonderful. It's a very useful guide indeed. Do you plan to add JKR's interviews to your site? So yes, i agree that the definition of canon for this list would not apply to your site. Therefore, i guess my question is to the list mods - do you think it would be helpful to have a definition of canon set for this list? Something to put in the files section or somewhere more fitting? Or do most people already know it and i'm just being ridiculous? ;) ~Katy~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From meboriqua at aol.com Fri Apr 25 20:58:20 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 20:58:20 -0000 Subject: Draco Malfoy - Snape/Black In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56169 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > We'd need to see a definite need Draco could fill before Harry decides to trust him enough to do something without Dumbledore. > > For me, I'd rather see Draco grow up to be like father, like son. We still need bad guys.> I don't see Harry and Draco working together. Why would they? What possible use would Harry or anyone on his side have for Draco's input in any way? Darrin, you made an excellent point about Draco having to do something big to earn Dumbledore's trust. Draco seems quite lazy to me and certainly not someone who is interested in earning anything, let alone trust. However, why does Draco have to be evil? Why does he have to be good? I can't decide how I see things ending up for Draco because I see so many possibilities. He could become a DE. He could witness his father in action and hate it and what the DEs stand for. He could see his father kissing the hem of Voldemort's robe and *really* hate that. Draco could also lose his father (or his mother) to Voldemort and turn against Voldemort and the DEs... violently. Draco is not a nice kid. He's spoiled, rude, likes to play very nasty tricks on others, seems to be unmotivated in school harbors jealous feelings towards Harry and is utterly dependent on his parents. Isn't it possible that he will remain these things and still choose, in the end, not to ally himself with the DEs? That's the real Snape parallel, IMO, and that's what makes Snape so fascinating. I'd like to see more depth in Draco's character, but if he simply chooses to be either good or evil, he'll be one-dimensional, and JKR can do better than that. --jenny from ravenclaw Would Draco's Choice be a good name for a band? ******************************************* From rane_ab at hotmail.com Fri Apr 25 20:09:00 2003 From: rane_ab at hotmail.com (rane_ab) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 20:09:00 -0000 Subject: Vampire Snape/Knowing Lucius was a DE/Remus as Spy (WAS: Thoughts and questions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56170 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: Phyllis said: > Lupin's vampire essay reference - if Hermione was able to figure out > that Lupin was a werewolf from Snape's assignment of the werewolf > essay, presumably she would have been able to figure out that Snape > is a vampire if Lupin had truly assigned the vampire essay (and if > Snape truly is a vampire). Smart remark. Didn't think of that. :-) > Rane again: > Phyllis said: > It seems to me that it's fairly common knowledge that Lucius was a > DE. As George tell Harry when they rescue him in the Anglia: "He > [Lucius] was a big supporter of You Know Who." And Fred chimes > in: "And when You Know Who disappeared...Lucius Malfoy came back > saying he'd never meant any of it. Load of dung - Dad reckons he was > right in You Know Who's inner circle." The book then goes on to > say "Harry had heard these rumours about Malfoy's family before..." > (CoS, Ch. 3). Even Borgin the shopkeeper says under his > breath "...and if the stories are true, you haven't sold me half of > what's hidden in your *manor*..." (CoS, Ch. 4). See my previous msg. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/56167 > Rane again: > > > Speaking of spies, why did Sirius think Remus was the spy when LV > > was threatening James' life? > > Well, as Professor McGonagall tells the group in the Three > Broomsticks: "He [Dumbledore] was sue that somebody close to the > Potters had been keeping You-Know-Who informed of their > movements...Indeed, he had suspected for some time that someone on > our side had turned traitor and was passing a lot of information to > You-Know-Who" (PoA, Ch. 10). Since "somebody close to the Potters" > was suspected, it's logical that Sirius would have suspected Remus > and that Remus would have suspected Sirius. > What I meant was: why suspect Remus over Peter? I mean, Sirius and James seem to have utter trust in Peter - trusting him with their most precious secret. And, yet, they don't trust Remus (or at least, Sirus doesn't; I suspect James doesn't, either). I find that quite remarquable. Why do I have the feeling the subject's been raised before? :-) Thanks for your thoughts, Rane. From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Fri Apr 25 20:40:43 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 20:40:43 -0000 Subject: Longbottoms, St. Mungos, Lucius, and Celestina... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56171 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gishstar1" wrote: > I > have a few theories... but this is one of them that I have been > longing to discuss with others. Ok, so we know that the Longbottoms > are at Saint Mungos... because someone put the crucatious curse on > them and it's heavily affected them and their memeories... I have > reason so suspect that Neville was hit with "obilivate" (sp?) as a > young baby... now... who would want a baby to forget something? AND! > what could the effects of a memory spell have on a baby? ... J.K. > keeps mentioning and reminding us that Neville is very forgetful... > hmmm... there's got to be a reason for that. I think there are a lot of people here who would agree with you. Being new to group myself, I can't say how it's been discusses here, but I do know that it has been talked about a lot in Potter fandom at large. Ok... something else to > muse upon... Saint Mungos... we know that the Longbottoms are at the > hospital can't remember a thing, or themselves... I think someone is > preventing them from getting better. Why would I say that? > > My theory > is becaues Lucius Malfoy donates to Saint Mungos Hospital. (as > stated in Book 4 at the start of the Quidditch World Cup by > Cornelius Fudge) and who do we all know that Mr. Malfoy is > associated with??? Voldemort! Now, is Lucius donating out of the > pureness of his heart? (ha!) or is it because he's paying to make > sure that certain somebodies don't recover from their 'injuries'. Now that is an interesting theory. But what could they possibly know that Malfoy would want hidden? I have one guess--I just finished re-reading GoF and the reason the Lestranges +others tortured the Longbottoms is that they thought the Longbottoms knew the location of Voldemort. What if Frank, as a auror, had been assigned to hunt down what was left of Voldemort (if Mad-Eye was in charge at the time, he would have been certain that Voldemort survived). And what if he came close to finding him. The Lestranges has already talked their way out of Azkaban once, why risk going back just to show support for Voldemort? What if the attack on the Longbottoms was to help Voldemort get away? > Let it be known as well, Voldemort said (and we can never take what > he says serious because he's almost always lying... but we are very > certain that he is aware when people are lying to him) that once > someone has had a memory charm put on them and to alter that to make > them remember harms that person and they are no longer ... uhmm i > can't think of the word... but it's not good... they're like not > people anymore... but like they're memories are permantly damaged > and they aren't (he put it as useful) well, they aren't human > anymore... they just have perpetual Alzheimers... anycrud... Hmm...are you talking about what he did to Bertha Jorkins here? It's much worse than Alzheimers effect, the person goes mad and is a shell of themselves. Oblivate has more of an Alzheimers effect except it's all at once instead of gradually over time. So... > to make Neville remember would be putting him in danger of his > life... that's what I'm getting from that statement... More like his sanity. BUT we also > know of another certain somebody that is donating to this hospital.. > Celestina Warbeck and if she's donating and Lucius is donating... Maybe I missed something but I don't think we have any proof Celestina Warbeck is evil in cannon (do we?) I > dont think anyone by the names of Mr. and Mrs. Longbottom are going > to ever get better... Quite possibly. But still Neville has a better chance of getting his parents back than Harry has. "Serena Moonsilver" From severin_szaltis at yahoo.co.uk Fri Apr 25 20:44:39 2003 From: severin_szaltis at yahoo.co.uk (severin_szaltis) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 20:44:39 -0000 Subject: Snape's special title In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56172 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Gomes Moor" wrote: > Hi! > > I'm delurking for a minute just to ask you: does anyone have any idea > about why Snape is the only member of Hogwarts' staff who is > called "master"? > > Gomes Moor Hello y'all I'm de-lurking to reply. I apologise if I'm repeating anything anyone else has said... In days gone by teachers in British schools were called `master;' French master, Latin master and so on. This is still the case in many public schools and Hogwarts certainly appears to be modelled upon such schools. It should be noted that Snape is the Potion master (small m), not a Potion Master (capital M). In the books except where it is used as part of a chapter heading, it is written as `master.' He may of course be a Master craftsman as well as a teacher, but he is referred to in the manner of a teacher - Potion master. Whilst it's true that none of the other teachers are referred to in this slightly antiquated way (except Dumbledore who retains the old title of Headmaster and not as is becoming increasingly common, Head teacher) I think the reason for this is more to help with Snape's image and characterisation than with anything else. I think that Rowling uses it as a device to set Snape apart from `the crowd.' There is something just that little bit more sinister, that little bit more severe about the title `master' than `teacher' especially when he is the only member of staff referred to as such. I don't believe there is any deeper meaning than this. Besides, I can almost see Snape insisting upon being called `master!' SS ~;o) From mbush at lainc.com Fri Apr 25 21:03:17 2003 From: mbush at lainc.com (mtwelovett) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 21:03:17 -0000 Subject: Harry & Lord Voldemort's Wands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56173 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > I wonder how long Dumbledore has had Fawkes? Because I wonder if > Dumbledore, smelling trouble with Tom Riddle back in the 40s, called > Ollivanders, asked which bird's feather was in Riddle's wand, and > made a point of having one more, and only one more, feather plucked > for a future wand. And then he took in the bird. > > No canon, just a thought. > > Darrin I am under the impression that the wands would have some similar traits because they share the same kind of core. Because they came from the same phoenix, they would be closer in likeness than ones coming from two different phoenixes, so in that sense they are related, but since the woods and lengths are different they wouldn't be exactly the same. I wonder if when the wood comes from the same plant and the cores are different if that would make them related in a similar way or if the core is more important to the "qualities" of the wand? But I do think that the wizard has something to do with it as well. Just as no one else's wand works as well for another wizard as it would for the owner, I think if there were two "identical" wands, they would still react differently because of their owners. Initially I thought that the wands (H & LV's) were made at the same time, but had the thought the other day of what if they weren't? How long was Harry's wand sitting on the shelf in the shop?--70 years, or 13 years or maybe only 2 years...? And althougth the wand picks the wizard, how much control does Olivander have over this? I know that they went through a bunch of wands when Harry was purchasing his, but when Olivander finally pulled the Fawkes wand for him to try, he had some inkling about it's relationship to Voldermort, and seemed to have a notion that it might work before handing it off to Harry. (sorry don't have the books with me to pull quotes from) So are these wands Brothers from having the same parent (Fawkes) in different years, or are they closer to faternal (is that right?) twins? (born at the same time, but look different) It seems to me that it is pretty significant that Fawkes is the phoenix the cores are from and the emphasis on the fact that Fawkes has only given two feathers is interesting, especially, as has been pointed out, since phoenixes are reborn so essentially live forever.... 2 feathers out of eternity is probably pretty rare indeed... and does Fawkes have any "special" things about him that other phoenixes don't? (I suspect we may find out something about that in June.) And how rare indeed must it be for the wizard to actually be in contact with the creature that provided the core for it's wand? (Although I believe Fleur had a hair from her veela grandmother in hers.) What could it mean? I'm not sure, but it is something to think about while I wait not so patiently for the 21st of June to arrive... Mary From jsummerill at summerillj.freeserve.co.uk Fri Apr 25 21:21:00 2003 From: jsummerill at summerillj.freeserve.co.uk (jotwo2003) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 21:21:00 -0000 Subject: Three headed dogs and hippogriffs Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56174 I found the following in The Sorcerer's Companion by Allan Zola Kronzck and Elizabeth Kronzck. Under the entry for Three Headed Dog they describe the monster Cerberus, who in Greek mythology, was the watchdog of the underworld. They describe a story associated with him: "Hercules wrestled Cerberus with his bare hands, managing to drag the beast back up to Earth for a brief time. Legend holds that during his days in the world of the living, Cerberus drooled, as dogs will. A few drops of his saliva fell on the earth, from which sprang a poisonous plant called aconite. Also known as wolfsbane, aconite is a real plant that was commonly used in the potions and ointments of both real and fictional witches." Hence Snape's question about aconite in the first potions lesson foreshadows Fluffy, as well as the wolfsbane potion, which strongly supports the theory that all his questions had hidden meanings. Under the entry for Hippogriff they refer to a story that they were the favoured mounts of Charlemagne's knights. They describe an incident from the tale: "In the hands of the knight Rogero he flies over the Alps from Italy to England Taking off again, Rogero and his mount head for Ireland, where they discover the fair maiden Angelina in the clutches of a terrible sea monster. Seeing the shadow of the hippogriff's wings upon the water, the monster abandons his prey in favor of something larger and more tasty. As the hippogriff deftly jumps out of the way, Rogero disarms the monster with the blinding glare of a magic shield. Rogero and Angelina hop on the hippogriff's back and - much like Harry and Hermione - sail off in search of new adventures." I wonder if this means that Quidditch players Roger Davies and Angelina Johnson will ride Buckbeak at some point in the books. Jo From jsummerill at summerillj.freeserve.co.uk Fri Apr 25 21:24:55 2003 From: jsummerill at summerillj.freeserve.co.uk (jotwo2003) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 21:24:55 -0000 Subject: HP and Les Miserables, Phantom and SHIP Lily/Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56175 If you subscribe to LOLLIPOPS and if you think that Snape's love was unrequited, then his Les Mis character could be Eponine. Eponine, the once pampered but now poor and neglected daughter of the Th?nardiers, is in love with Marius, the radical student, (paralleling Lily in this scenario) who is in love with Cosette, (who takes the role of James). With a switch of gender in the lyrics, I can imagine Snape singing Eponine's solo, On My Own, and her part of the One Day More number. Another character from musicals that Snape gets compared to as well is the Phantom of the Opera. In this triangle Lily is Christine and James is Raoul. My versions of this story which I a most familiar with are the Andrew Lloyd Webber musical and a book called Phantom by Susan Kay. The parallels are even more obvious in this. The anti- hero obsessively loves the heroine and is violently jealous of the rival suitor, who is much more eligible. However, a lot of women, including me, wish the heroine could be with the man who has less going for him. It's not because I dislike Raoul but I just feel that the Phantom loves Christine more, needs her more. Similarly, it's obvious that James was a nice guy but somehow I see Snape's love as being more intense. And in both stories that fact that it is a Love That Can Never Be makes it all the more powerful and tragic. To test my theory, how many people like the Phantom story, and are also Snape/Lily shippers? Jo From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Fri Apr 25 20:24:12 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 20:24:12 -0000 Subject: SHIPping Attitudes // Hermione's Age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56176 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "psychic_serpent" wrote: > "Serena Moonsilver" wrote: > > > Actually, I think Hermione's age was controversal only because of > > the Hermione is Harry's long lost sister theory. > > Well, I've already ranted but proof of Hermione's birthdate > should not have been necessary to wipe this theory off the face of > the earth. Good old-fashioned common sense should have done that. > > ::throws final water balloon:: > > Kersploish! > I hope that wasn't aimed at me! I never really thought that theory was viable either but wanted to clarify why there would be any "ew" factor to a H/Hr ship and when Hermione's b-day was. Serena From ratchick22 at hotmail.com Fri Apr 25 21:51:54 2003 From: ratchick22 at hotmail.com (herm - own - ninny) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 21:51:54 +0000 Subject: Redeemed!Dudley? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56177 I came upon this quote from JKR when reading the summery of 'things we know about OOP' from Book Magazine(http://www.bookmagazine.com/issue28/unfogging.shtml) "Also, fans should keep an eye on [their son] Dudley. It's probably too late for Aunt Petunia and Uncle Vernon. I feel sorry for Dudley. I might joke about him, but I feel truly sorry for him because I see him as just as abused as Harry." I know there's been a lot of talk about Redeemed!Draco, but this quote just screams Redeemed!Dudley to me. The fact that JKR tells us to keep an eye on him, and then says it's too late for Vernon and Petunia, implies that it's not too late for Dudley. Not that I necesarily want Dudley redeemed - he's no Draco Malfoy that's for sure . But it's a thought, and something I've never even begun to consider. I mean, as it stands Dudley is a very minor character. We see him at the beginning of each book and usually forget about him the rest of time. What can he possibly do that'll be worth keeping an eye on? dina _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Fri Apr 25 21:50:33 2003 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 21:50:33 -0000 Subject: FILK: "The Quidditch Match" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56178 Caius This is a filk of the song "The Baseball Game" from the Clark Gesner musical "You're a Good Man, Charlie Brown", titled "The Quidditch Match". This version is from the original Off-Broadway production. I do not know if there have been any changes in the 1999 Broadway Revival. You can find the original music at the following link: http://www.broadwaymidi.com/shows/youre_a_good_man_charlie_brown.html Italicized passages are indicated by enclosing them within asterisks. This filk is dedicated to Gail Bohacek. The Quidditch Match SCENE: Oliver Wood is relating the strange events that occurred during the 1992 Gryffindor-Slytherin Quidditch match (Harry's second year). OLIVER WOOD: There is no team, like the best team, Which is our team right here. Gryffindor team is the best team In the Hogwarts Quidditch league this year. And in no time we'll be big-time, I just know our turn's come up; For all we have to do is just beat Slytherin And we'll win the House Quidditch Cup. *Dear pen-pal...* You'll never guess what happened today at the Quidditch match. It's hard to believe what happened today at the Quidditch match. I was the Keeper and Harry was Seeker, The rest of the tean was the same as always, But somehow or other disaster struck at the Quidditch match. Saturday morn, we got up quite early, our hearts were stout. Eleven o' clock, and Madam Hooch let all the four balls out. Slytherin quickly led sixty to nought, We thought they could never be caught, I tell you The Gryffindor Seven would never win if soon they didn't get hot. Katie Bell scored by catching the Quaffle And tossing it right through the hoop. Angelina and Alicia Spinnet Flew in a precise "loop-the-loop". Fred and George Weasley, our Beaters, Each wielded his Bat. They tried to prevent either Bludger >From squashing us flat. Harry looked up and then he caught sight of the Golden Snitch Fluttering high way up in the sky of the Quidditch pitch. Somebody tampered and made a Rogue Bludger It hit him before he could twitch. Dear pen-pal, I'm sure our Professors mean us no harm, But when Gilderoy Lockhart was finished, Harry had no arm. Yours in Fellowship, Oliver Wood -Haggridd From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Fri Apr 25 22:02:24 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 15:02:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Rita the DE at Hogwarts? Message-ID: <20030425220224.35636.qmail@web21202.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56179 A thought came to me that I thought I'd throw out there. Voldemort says that his loyal DE is at Hogwarts. Most take that to mean Crouch, Jr. But, after Harry returns to Hogwarts Crouch, Jr. asks Harry if the Dark Lord has really returned. That seems to indicate that he doesn't have the Dark Mark otherwise he would have known Voldemort was back just as Snape does. Voldemort also tells Wormtail that there will be one more death and then the Dementor applies the Kiss so now Crouch, Jr. is worse than dead. That has always seemed to me to be too convenient to have been done just at the spur of the moment. It just seems too planned. So, I was thinking about who else has been at Hogwarts the whole year and Rita Skeeter has. Dumbledore makes a point of saying that Voldemort is good at causing enmity and what better way than through the media? Rita went out of her way to write divisive articles all year, especially about Harry and his friends, the very ones who could arguably rally the community against Voldemort. Thoughts? Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From bard7696 at aol.com Fri Apr 25 22:27:36 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 22:27:36 -0000 Subject: Rita the DE at Hogwarts? In-Reply-To: <20030425220224.35636.qmail@web21202.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56180 Lynn: > > Voldemort says that his loyal DE is at Hogwarts. > Most take that to mean Crouch, Jr. But, after > Harry returns to Hogwarts Crouch, Jr. asks Harry > if the Dark Lord has really returned. That seems > to indicate that he doesn't have the Dark Mark > otherwise he would have known Voldemort was back > just as Snape does. Me: Snape and Karakoff's Dark Marks were acting up all year, steadily growing darker all year, well before V-Mort successfully performed the ritual that gave him human form. I think Crouch was asking if Voldemort managed to perform the ritual, rather than "is he back?" > Voldemort also tells Wormtail that there will be > one more death and then the Dementor applies the > Kiss so now Crouch, Jr. is worse than dead. That > has always seemed to me to be too convenient to > have been done just at the spur of the moment. > It just seems too planned. I always figured the death was Harry's. > So, I was thinking about who else has been at > Hogwarts the whole year and Rita Skeeter has. > Dumbledore makes a point of saying that Voldemort > is good at causing enmity and what better way > than through the media? Rita went out of her way > to write divisive articles all year, especially > about Harry and his friends, the very ones who > could arguably rally the community against > Voldemort. > > Thoughts? I've disagreed with your reasoning, but I don't disagree with your conclusion. Rita would make an EXCELLENT DE. And just because Voldemort didn't tell his DEs at the graveyard about her , or include her in the Mouseketeer roll call doesn't mean she isn't one of his followers. You think V-Mort tells knuckle-draggers like Mr. Crabbe and Mr. Goyle every little detail? Hell, no, he doesn't. Of course, she's in a bottle somewhere now. Wonder if V-Mort stages an assault on Casa Granger to get her back? Darrin -- Assault on Casa Granger. Whoever uses that as a fanfic title owes me a quarter every time it's read. From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Fri Apr 25 22:46:21 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 15:46:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Dark Marks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030425224621.56338.qmail@web21209.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56181 Darrin: > Snape and Karakoff's Dark Marks were acting up > all year, steadily growing > darker all year, well before V-Mort > successfully performed the ritual that gave > him human form. > > I think Crouch was asking if Voldemort managed > to perform the ritual, rather > than "is he back?" Me: I understand what you are saying here but that discounts that the reason Snape knew Voldemort was back was because he felt the mark burn, not that it had been more visible. From what Snape says to Fudge, it appears that only Voldemort himself could make it burn black when he was summoning his DE's to him. That Voldemort hadn't done it previously could mean either he didn't have the power to do it before his transformation or that he preferred his DE's not to see him in that state. However, since the mark was becoming more visible, they all had to know Voldemort was gaining in power. Of course, this also brings me to the question of how the DE's knew where Voldemort was so they could Apparate to him. I wonder if the Dark Mark comes with a GPS? LOL Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Apr 25 23:07:34 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 00:07:34 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Vampire Snape/Knowing Lucius was a DE/Remus as Spy (WAS: Thoughts and questions) References: Message-ID: <3EA9BFB6.000004.68937@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 56182 Rane wrote - What I meant was: why suspect Remus over Peter? I mean, Sirius and James seem to have utter trust in Peter - trusting him with their most precious secret. And, yet, they don't trust Remus (or at least, Sirus doesn't; I suspect James doesn't, either). I find that quite remarquable. Why do I have the feeling the subject's been raised before? :-) Now me - Because it has - and will be again and again because it's impossible to come to a definitive answer. I don't think it's that they trust Peter so much as they don't think he could be the spy because he's *Peter* and appears to be less strong/powerful/brave than the others. According to Sirius Peter hung around with people more powerful than himself (I don't remember the exact quote) and Peter himself implies that he joined Voldemort out of fear (which frankly I don't believe because to be spying on his three closest friends without getting caught for a year requires a certain amount of skill and one heck of a lot of nerve). I think their thinking went that it obviously wasn t James (since he was one of the people Voldemort wanted to kill) and it couldn't possibly be Peter therefore it had to be Sirius or Remus. Presumably Remus had some doubts about it being Sirius or he'd have made sure that James didn't make him Secret Keeper (perhaps that's why Albus volunteered - Remus convinced him to?). To Sirius eyes then it has to be Remus and if as seems likely Sirius was James best friend (he is best man after all and I get a kind of friends since birth vibe from them) then Sirius would be more able to convince James of his trustworthyness than Remus. Plus of course they already know Remus is quite good at keeping secrets. K From bard7696 at aol.com Fri Apr 25 23:26:34 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 23:26:34 -0000 Subject: Vampire Snape/Knowing Lucius was a DE/Remus as Spy (WAS: Thoughts and questi In-Reply-To: <3EA9BFB6.000004.68937@monica> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56183 K wrote: James didn't make him Secret Keeper (perhaps that's why Albus > volunteered - Remus convinced him to?). To Sirius eyes then it has to be > Remus and if as seems likely Sirius was James best friend (he is best man > after all and I get a kind of friends since birth vibe from them) then > Sirius would be more able to convince James of his trustworthyness than > Remus. Plus of course they already know Remus is quite good at keeping > secrets. > > K Maybe it was Remus' werewolf persona that made him unsuitable. The Dementors are the "natural allies" of V-Mort and the Giants also seem to be allies. It might not be that large a stretch to include werewolves in that category as well. Or perhaps, more practically, in a bestial brain, there are no secrets, and therefore, Remus couldn't do it. Remember, he turns into a beast once a month. (Insert your favorite PMS joke here.) Or maybe Sirius was just, when it came down to it, not ready to trust a werewolf. Like Ron, his latent prejudice came into play and it came back to hurt him. That could be why Sirius is a shade harsh with Ron in GoF over Crouch and the house-elf business. Sirius has lived with a mistake based on poor judgement and wants Ron to snap free of his stereotyping ways. Darrin -- That Sirius/Ron parallel is looking better all the time. -- Stereotyping Ways would be a great name for a band, and so would Draco's choice, Jenny. :) From stix4141 at hotmail.com Sat Apr 26 00:18:35 2003 From: stix4141 at hotmail.com (stickbook41) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 00:18:35 -0000 Subject: FILK: Born In The Muggle World Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56184 BORN IN THE MUGGLE WORLD A filk to the tune of "Born In The USA" by Bruce Springsteen, on his album of the same name Dedicated to my #1 cheerleader Gail SCENE: A Mudblood Support Group meeting, CoS-ish HERMIONE GRANGER: Born down in a dentists' town Not a sign of magic in my whole background Though I spent some time in a muggle school I got something and I'm gonna prove it to you, now Born in the muggle world I was born in the muggle world I was born in the muggle world Born in the muggle world, now JUSTIN FINCH-FLETCHLEY: My open-minded Dad and Mum, Though I had a letter from Eton, Sent me off to a magic land To learn to be a magic man Born in the muggle world I was born in the muggle world, now Born in the muggle world I was born in the muggle world COLIN CREEVY: All that crazy stuff that I can do Is hidden magic breaking out, I never knew! I found my way to Diagon And then, soon, to the Lexicon, now PENELOPE CLEARWATER: I have a boyfriend, a prefect Who gives me a lot of respect But his name is secret DEAN THOMAS: Brought up by muggles in their family That's all the Theory Bay knows `bout me, now VOLDEMORT: Despite a lengthy wizard lineage I was left to rot in a muggle orphanage All because they can't perform a spell, I'm gonna make sure they end up in Hell ALL: Born in the muggle world We were born in the muggle world, now Born in the muggle world VOLDEMORT: They will all pay dearly in the muggle world ALL: Born in the muggle world Born in the muggle world Born in the muggle world VOLDEMORT: I'll get my brutal vengeance on the muggle world, now! Cheers! -stickbook From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Sat Apr 26 00:26:30 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 00:26:30 -0000 Subject: FILK: I hate Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56185 I Hate Snape To the tune of "I Hate Men" from Kiss Me, Kate by Cole Porter SCENE: After an especially trying Potions class, our intrepid trio take some time to rant. RON: I hate Snape. He gets me totally bent out of shape. He's nasty and he's biased and he's always docking points. I'd like to punch his ugly nose and put it out of joint. Expect no kindness from him, 'cos he's sure to disappoint. Oh, I hate Snape! Of all the teachers in this school -- a fine, diverse collection -- I hate most the Potions Master with his bad complection. When he approaches, I take off in the opposite direction. 'Cos I hate Snape! HARRY: I hate Snape. He almost foiled Sirus' escape. He used to work for Voldemort, a fully-pledged Death Eater. And he might be reformed now, but he sure ain't any sweeter. He's even more annoying than Malfoy and Rita Skeeter. Yes, I hate Snape! If you find yourself in Potions class, you'd better pay attention, Unless you are a Slytherin, you'll wind up in detention, Performing tasks too gruesome and embarrasing to mention. Oh, I hate Snape! HERMIONE: I hate Snape, Like I hate the stuff that off my shoe I scrape. I do not find his swooping manner graceful or romantic, I do not like the way he makes poor Neville scared and frantic And I don't appreciate how he insults my orthodontics. Oh, I hate Snape! I know that he's a teacher, and I really should respect him. I know he's guarded Harry and attempted to protect him. But every time he speaks, I feel this great urge to dissect him. Yes, I hate Snape! Marina Rusalka rusalka at ix.netcom.com From DMCourt11 at cs.com Sat Apr 26 01:17:48 2003 From: DMCourt11 at cs.com (bookraptor11) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 01:17:48 -0000 Subject: Draco Malfoy - Snape/Black In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56186 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jenny_ravenclaw" wrote: > Draco is not a nice kid. He's spoiled, rude, likes to play very nasty > tricks on others, seems to be unmotivated in school harbors jealous > feelings towards Harry and is utterly dependent on his parents. Isn't > it possible that he will remain these things and still choose, in the > end, not to ally himself with the DEs? That's the real Snape > parallel, IMO, and that's what makes Snape so fascinating. I'd like > to see more depth in Draco's character, but if he simply chooses to be > either good or evil, he'll be one-dimensional, and JKR can do better > than that. Draco seems to be very immature/incompetent for his age, at least as far as the wizard world is concerned. He runs away in the forbidden forest, for example, and gets his father to buy the team Nimbus 2001s so they'd make him seeker. It surprises me that Lucius doesn't do more to toughen him up. This is a world where Neville's great uncle Algie pushes him off a pier and hangs him out a window to force a little magic out of him. Quidditch, dangerous with the potential for serious injury. There has also been a lot of speculation on this list that Dumbledore knew what was happening in PS/SS and let Harry confront and defeat Quirrell/Voldemort. Children aren't coddled, they're regularly expected to engage in dangerous activities. That makes LM's attitude in COS even more puzzling. It's a perfect opportunity for Draco to get his feet wet, start following in daddy's evil footsteps. Lucius had to manufacture an opportunity to slip the book to Ginny; it might have been much easier for a schoolmate to do so. LM doesn't even have enough faith in his son's discretion to tell him anything about what's going on. Draco tells Crabbe & Goyle (Harry & Ron) that his father won't tell him anything about the last time the Chamber was opened and to keep his head down and let the Heir get on with it. It sounds to me from what Draco says that he doesn't even know anything about his father's role in the present Chamber's opening. I don't think he'll let his son join the DEs, probably figures he wouldn't last a week, that if Voldemort didn't kill him, he'd probably be captured and talk. Maybe he's trying to keep Draco alive long enough to get a grandson and keep the family line going. If Draco ever realizes any of this it might motivate him to grow up, either to reject the DEs and join with Dumbledore (if the side will have him is another question), or to out-evil his father. Donna > --jenny from ravenclaw > > Would Draco's Choice be a good name for a band? > ******************************************* Good name for a band, great name for a fanfic. D. From stix4141 at hotmail.com Sat Apr 26 02:23:04 2003 From: stix4141 at hotmail.com (stickbook41) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 02:23:04 -0000 Subject: FILK: Fellows Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56187 FELLOWS A filk to the tune of "Yellow" by Coldplay, on their wonderful album Parachutes I realized only when I was nearly done that this particular song has been done recently (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/49242), so I apologize for my redundancy! SCENE: SS/PS?HERMIONE is on the Hogwarts Express on her way to her new school. She decides to take a break from looking for Trevor. HERMIONE: Look at these boys, Look how it's just them two On the train to school Yeah, they were so mellow I came along, And then I noticed that The tall kid had a rat He tried to turn yellow So then I took my seat Inside their compartment, Next to those fellows One had glasses And he was skin and bones The redhead Had something on his nose "Better change into your Hogwarts robes, You know we're getting close." When we arrived We sailed across the lake And found a witch in wait And she said, "Hello. "Go through these doors, We're gonna sort you lot!" I hoped we'd get a shot To try to do a spell-o Hannah Abbott, Then there was Susan Bones Gryffindor! I finally found a home! Would you know, guess who was placed there as well The train compartment fellows! (Then, after she's gotten to know them a little better ) HERMIONE: What pains! Those two boys from the train, They think that I'm insane `Cause I use my brain! All they do is complain! They have no self-restraint! Points down the drain! Look at those boys Look how it's just them two Wish I was part of their crew Cheers! -stickbook who is on a roll From bard7696 at aol.com Sat Apr 26 02:50:56 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 02:50:56 -0000 Subject: Draco Malfoy - Snape/Black In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56188 Donna wrote: > > I don't think he'll let his son join the DEs, probably figures he > wouldn't last a week, that if Voldemort didn't kill him, he'd > probably be captured and talk. Maybe he's trying to keep Draco alive > long enough to get a grandson and keep the family line going. > > If Draco ever realizes any of this it might motivate him to grow up, > either to reject the DEs and join with Dumbledore (if the side will > have him is another question), or to out-evil his father. > I wonder how much Narcissa has to do with this? Draco exhibits some serious mama's boy tendencies. All those sweets from home, folding like a cheap lawn chair when Hermione and Neville physically strike him, screaming like a girly boy in the forest, completely being intimidated by his father. Some real indicators. It could be that Narcissa, worried (probably correctly) that Draco would get his ass kicked within two minutes of whatever sorting ceremony is at Durmstrang, stepped in and refused to let Draco go. But this also makes me wonder, if Narcissa and Lucius ever had a major falling out, where would Draco's loyalties lie? My take is, Lucius better make sure Narcissa is happy. Darrin -- With a name like Narcissa, you just KNOW that chick is high- maintenance. From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Sat Apr 26 03:22:15 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 03:22:15 -0000 Subject: Vampire Snape/Knowing Lucius was a DE/Remus as Spy (WAS: Thoughts and questions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56189 "Laura" wrote: We're told over and over again just how cunning, devious, even brilliant Snape is. [snip] He figures out that Harry was on the staircase in his invisibility cloak the night Professor Moody saved Harry's you-know-what. "rane_ab" wrote: Er... No offence, but it seems to me Snape likes to blame *everything* on Harry. Probably, when anything goes wrong, his first thought is *Potter*. Me: Actually, Snape neither jumps to the conclusion that Harry is out and about when he shouldn't be without evidence, nor does he need to be particularly clever to work this one out. The Marauder's Map is found in the corridor after Harry drops his egg and it begins screaming (this is after he's been to the prefects' bathroom to try to work out the clue). Snape is familiar with the map (we know this in PoA). He is aware that it was in Harry's possession during Harry's third year, and it is not a great leap to imagine that it is in Harry's possession again during his fourth year. There are only two people in the castle who have screaming eggs, the other one being Cedric, who is probably unlikely to be out after hours breaking rules. (Fleur and Viktor are not staying inside the castle.) It is not really that difficult for Snape to arrive at Harry as the solution to the racket in the corridor, given that he knows Harry has an egg and that he once had and may again have the enchanted map that insulted Snape so cleverly. Added to this is Snape's knowledge that Harry has an Invisibility Cloak, and it's really not surprising that Snape assumes Harry is behind what's going on. He'd be fairly dim if he DIDN'T work out that Harry was involved, and we know that Snape is not dim, even though he is sometimes unwilling to listen to others (that's stubbornness, quite another issue). So I believe Snape needs to be given credit--he really did figure out it was Harry, he didn't leap to a conclusion just because he doesn't like Harry--while not giving him TOO much credit for working out something that was as plain as the nose on his own face, if you had all of the knowledge about Harry that Snape did. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From vinnia_chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz Sat Apr 26 04:30:58 2003 From: vinnia_chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz (=?iso-8859-1?q?Vinnia=20Chrysshallie?=) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 16:30:58 +1200 (NZST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rita the DE at Hogwarts? In-Reply-To: <20030425220224.35636.qmail@web21202.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030426043058.21856.qmail@web41204.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56190 --- Lynn wrote: --------------------------------- So, I was thinking about who else has been at Hogwarts the whole year and Rita Skeeter has. Dumbledore makes a point of saying that Voldemort is good at causing enmity and what better way than through the media? Rita went out of her way to write divisive articles all year, especially about Harry and his friends, the very ones who could arguably rally the community against Voldemort. Me: I don't think so. Rita surely is evil, but I don't think she is a DE. Being evil does not mean that someone is with Voldemort. I tend to think of Rita as some other kind of evil, nobody's ally. She's like Peeves. In the (Hogwarts) castle, it's a constant battle between the students (making the castle dirty, unintentionally, I'm sure ) and Filch (keeping it clean). Peeves is Filch enemy, but he's not exactly on students' side either. He annoyed both sides. Of course, he's a poltergeist, that's his 'responsibility'. But the point is, Rita can be evil without being Voldemort's servant. I don't imagine she will write a lot of bad stuff about Voldemort or his DE, not if she wants to live a long life anyway! But who knows...she seems determined to see the bad side in everyone! Also, in GoF, when she said to Hermione, "I know things about Bagman that will make your hair curls" (not exact quote, haven't got the book with me at the moment), it sounds like she thinks that Bagman is bad. Doesn't sound like the thing she would say if she's a DE... Vinnia http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile - Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone mobile. From anne_goh02 at yahoo.com.sg Sat Apr 26 03:18:58 2003 From: anne_goh02 at yahoo.com.sg (gintonic3103) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 03:18:58 -0000 Subject: Character Strengths and Differences/Importance to the Story Line In-Reply-To: <001601c30b29$b563ff20$0714570c@pavilion> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56191 Quotes from Linda's post: > I was reading the discussions about the level of magical talent > possessed by each of our three heroes. I don't think that how much > magical talent they have is the point at all. I do agree that Harry > seems to have the most innate talent in that respect and that helps > define his character. > > However, without Ron the story would have been stopped in its tracks in SS/PS. They couldn't have gotten by the chess set without him. > OK. That is Ron's talent! Neither Hermione nor Harry possess > the analytical skills to reason through things like Ron can. > ----------------------------------------------------------------- Quote from Cathy's reply to Linda's post: > I'm supposed to be on my way to work, so this will have to be brief... > > Hermione worked out the step in SS/PS to determine which bottle would get them safely through the fire (in either direction). That takes a bit of analytical skill. Also, Harry was able to work out the riddle given by the Spinx. That wasn't a piece of cake, either. While they may not be as good as Ron at chess, they do possess analytical ability. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi all, after reading Linda's first post and Cathy's response, I have the following comments: First, some thoughts on Ron Weasley -- I can't for the life of me understand why some people dislike his character so much. He does have certain flaws, but I believe that Harry and Hermione are just as flawed as he is (just in different aspects). Even Rowling herself thinks that "Harry could have cut Ron some slack in GoF" and "Hermione was being too self righteous about SPEW" (Sorry, I don't have the links for these quotes; I read this on another Harry Potter forum some time ago). Back to the discussion. I'm sure all three of them have analytical abilities -- all of us do to some extent. But what Ron has, which distinguishes him from Harry and Hermione, are strategic skills. It's worth noting that Rowling never fails to mention in various books either Harry or Hermione each playing chess against Ron in the common room during the school holidays or during school, and always losing to him. I've read some posts where people think that Ron has an edge over Harry and Hermione because it's wizarding chess, but I'm not very convinced by that. Wizarding chess is no different from Muggle chess, save that the chess pieces move. It was impressive how Ron overcame McGonagall's chess pieces in PS (don't forget, it's McGonagall (and not some quack like Lockhart) who set those chess pieces in place). Strategic skills are different from analytical skills, as you have to be a few steps ahead of your opponent and anticipate the moves of your opponent to reach your desired goal. What Harry and Hermione do (e.g. in PS where Hermione solves the potions riddle, and in GoF where Harry solves the riddle given by the Sphix) is to analyse the situation at the moment that it's presented to them. Of course, there is no question that Harry and Hermione both possess analytical skills. I'm curious to see if Ron's strategic skills will play a part in the war against Voldemort or in the Gryffindor Quidditch Team since he's now the keeper. I do agree with Linda that each person in the trio possess different strengths and that they play on each other's strengths. However, it does seem that Ron's character development has been shunted to one side (to Hermione's favour) and we may never get to see his full potential simply because Rowling has written him as the less developed sidekick in the series. Personally, I find this a real pity because I think a lot could be said from the coming of age of Ron (whether he overcomes his insecurities over his lack of wealth, whether he becomes confident of his own abilities, whether he accepts himself as he is, whether he becomes as powerful a wizard as his brothers seem to be, etc). The other reason why we may never discover Ron's full potential is because I believe Harry is going to deal with Voldemort and other Voldemort-related incidents more and more on his own as he grows older (it's after all not called the Harry Potter series for nothing:-)). I can foresee a situation where both Ron and Hermione's strengths are played out less and less in the books and they act more as emotional support for Harry, leaving Harry to deal alone with Voldemort in the final face-off. Ta Ta, Anne (who hopes that I've now reached the moderators' standards for decent capitalization. *Grin*) From innermurk at catlover.com Fri Apr 25 22:51:45 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 22:51:45 -0000 Subject: The Riddle House Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56192 Ok, So I'm re-reading GOF and I started wondering about the Riddle House. It went through several owners after the Riddle family was killed, and then a wealthy man bought it, but never moved in and the neighbors think he's keeping it for tax purposes. However, he still keeps Frank as the gardener/groundskeeper. So, who owns the house? My first few times through the book, I'd always assumed that Voldemort is the one who bought it, but it struck me that if it were him, why wouldn't he know about Frank being there when he came back to use it? Ok, he might've forgotten he's been paying someone to care for the house (well I assume he's being paid anyway) or maybe he didn't know that was who Frank was, or quite likely he just didn't care. Anyway, how *is* he paying Frank (I can't see him living there without any income, he has to live somehow). Someone who is just a shadow can't pump out a paycheck every week/month/whatever. So, if Voldemort isn't the one who owns the house, who does? I thought of L. Malfoy first. He is wealthy, and Voldemort calls him his slippery *friend* Maybe he endeared himself to V. by securing the property that Voldemort thought was rightfully his? I guess a common muggle richman could live there, but that's not much fun to speculate on. Anyway, I just wanted to throw this question out to see if I've missed something, or if anyone has any theories on it? Innermurk From patgruenke at cloudnet.com Sat Apr 26 03:38:36 2003 From: patgruenke at cloudnet.com (Pat and Jim Gruenke) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 22:38:36 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: Percy and Penelope Message-ID: <3EA9FF3B.EBBBF740@cloudnet.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56193 > Waters Law wrote: > > And this brings me to the issue of Penelope Clearwater. Why was she with Hermione when > they were petrified in CoS? Harry and Ron believed her to be coming > from the Slytherin common room when they were polyjuiced > into "Crabbe" and "Goyle". Is she involved with Slytherin and > particularly, is she manipulating Percy? Remember, Harry and Ron > also found Percy wandering in the area of Slytherin's commons. Were > Percy and Penelope just looking for a good quiet place to get cozy > together or is something up? > My take: Penelope and Hermione were both studying in the library when Hermione figured out the creature was a Basilisk. They used a mirror to check around the corner, and got Petrified. I assumed that Penelope wasn't much of a Quidditch fan and was just in the library by chance. And as for Harry and Ron "believing" she was coming from the Slytherin common room, they were grasping at straws. I'm guessing that she and ol' Percy were just in an abandoned classroom for a little kissy-face, thus explaining why they were in the same area of the castle. Don't think she's in cahoots with the Slytherins. Don't think she would have gotten Petrified if she had been. It will be interesting to see what happens to old Percy. He's such a stickler for rules, but sometimes rules need to be broken. I'm in a camp that believes that there are a few rules that should never be broken, but the "it's company policy" type rules are meant to be broken! Pat, who thinks S.P.E.W. would be a great name for a band.... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET Fri Apr 25 23:20:07 2003 From: KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET (Linda) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 23:20:07 -0000 Subject: Lucius, my slippery friend (Was: Knowing Lucius was a DE) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56194 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_rude_mechanical" Elisabeth wrote: > Like, what's up with Snape, anyway? > > For example, if he just truly is a "slimy git," perhaps he is close > friends with the Malfoys, and the news was a shock. If he is sort of > playing a part (which is a pet theory of mine) then perhaps he's > concerned. Perhaps Snape is just well aware of Lucius' power within > the wizarding community (his influence over Fudge, his position > within the ministry), his secret stash of dark goodies under his > drawing room floor, and his knowledge of Snape's past. Me: I have a pet theory of my own regarding Snapes reaction in the infirmary. I don't think he was reacting to Malfoy's name at all. I think that perhaps he was simply reacting to the fact that Harry was naming names of DEs that he knew were at V's rebirthing. Could it be that he was there, was afraid that Harry recognized him, and he would be the next to be named? I don't know if this possibility has been discussed before. (If I'm repeating an earlier discussion, please let me know where the thread is.) I do seem to remember somebody saying, on some thread somewhere that Snape wouldn't have had time to be at the DE meeting and still be in time to storm Moody's office with D and M. However, we don't know what happened wiht the DE group after the portkey took Harry back to the beginning of the maze. If all the DEs disapperated (fearing V's wrath perhaps?), Snape could have disapperated even earlier, while the others were chasing Harry through the graves and it might never have been noticed. I know I'm stretching a bit here, but that leads me to... Elisabeth also wrote: > Which brings me to another question, one that just hit me. It is > common knowledge that Snape turned spy for Dumbledore, correct? Me again: I don't think it is common knowlage. True, there was a sizable jury as well as a large number of spectators, but what if the MOM put a "gag order" on any procedings or statements concerning those in Vs organization that were spying on him and his group? It would make sense even if the MOM truely thought that V was gone forever because any supporters of V that were still at large would most certainly be looking for revenge. Don't you think? Look at what Black says to Wormtail about the DEs in Azkaban. "They all think you're dead, or you'd have to answer to them."(pg 368 POA) Just throwing the workings of my tortured mind out there for review. Linda From Erthena at aol.com Sat Apr 26 03:36:01 2003 From: Erthena at aol.com (werebearloony) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 03:36:01 -0000 Subject: Harry, life debts and the meaning of slytherin Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56195 I was catching up on old messages when and as these things usually do numerous ideas, which actually turn out to be questions, hit me like a ton of bricks. Also as I'm fairly new here if these have been discussed to the point of exhaustion please just point me to the correct post. 1) Does Voldemort now owe a life debt to Harry? After all Harry did help (not voluntarily but he did help) restore V. to life. So then V. is definitely in Harry's debt, (Wormtail's too but that's less important) and could this someday save Harry's life. Dumbledore said that this life debt stuff was " magic at it's deepest most impenitrible."(POA) So even V. who is playing around with life and death already shouldn't be able to get around the fact that he owes his life to Harry. 2) Think of the way Slytherin is spelled, look at the last four letters of it Erin, I hate to bring this on any Erins (other than my best friend who I told and is now bemoaning her apparent evil nature). Did JKR have an enemy named Erin, or does she have a problem with Ireland (the Celtic translation of Erin). Why would she hide that name in the house with the most dark Wizards? Can(has) anyone find the parts that make up Slytherin (as a word)? I'd go further on all of these but my teachers are piling on homework, don't know what they're getting at, exams are ages away. --loony, who has driven all around her crazy by mentioning how many days till book five at least three times a day. From ivanova at idcnet.com Sat Apr 26 03:48:30 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 22:48:30 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Dark Marks References: <20030425224621.56338.qmail@web21209.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000501c30ba6$b4811160$41ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 56196 From: Ladi lyndi Of course, this also brings me to the question of how the DE's knew where Voldemort was so they could Apparate to him. I wonder if the Dark Mark comes with a GPS? LOL From: Me How did they know? Through magic! 8) Maybe there's some spell that's a version of the Apparate one that will allow a person to Apparate directly to where a person is standing. In this case, I can see Voldemort devising his own spell that he taught his DE's so that when he called them, they could show up immediately. Either that, or maybe the Dark Mark magically imparts the knowledge to the DE so s/he just *knows* where he is. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova/ From erinellii at yahoo.com Sat Apr 26 04:55:12 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 04:55:12 -0000 Subject: Harry, life debts and the meaning of slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56197 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "werebearloony" wrote: > 2) Think of the way Slytherin is spelled, look at the last four > letters of it Erin, I hate to bring this on any Erins (other than my best friend who I told and is now bemoaning her apparent evil > nature). Did JKR have an enemy named Erin, or does she have a > problem with Ireland (the Celtic translation of Erin). Why would she hide that name in the house with the most dark Wizards? Can (has) > anyone find the parts that make up Slytherin (as a word)? Me (Erin) Don't worry, I'm not insulted, but I'd always just thought it sounded like what a snake did; Slither in. As in: The snake slithered into the room. She just turned that "i" to a "y" to make it look a little less obvious. Erin From Lynx412 at aol.com Sat Apr 26 06:29:23 2003 From: Lynx412 at aol.com (Lynx412 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 02:29:23 EDT Subject: OOP: connection to GoF spoiler? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56198 I was following the thread about how the GoF spoilers turned out when I had an odd and amusing thought. In reference to JKR's comment about GoF containing the first 'truly evil female character' and her comment about a Weasly cousin, female, who was later dropped for Rita Skeeter...could the Weasly cousin have been the truly evil female she meant? And, if so, maybe that cousin is the new female DADA instructor with the 'poisoned honey' personality. Cheryl the Lynx, who thinks that would be an amusing, and 'Bangy', turn of events... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Sat Apr 26 06:59:56 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 23:59:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Harry, life debts and the meaning of slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030426065956.17420.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56199 --- werebearloony wrote: > 2) Think of the way Slytherin is spelled, look at the last four > letters of it Erin, I hate to bring this on any Erins (other than > my best friend who I told and is now bemoaning her apparent evil > nature). Did JKR have an enemy named Erin, or does she have a > problem with Ireland (the Celtic translation of Erin). Why would > she hide that name in the house with the most dark Wizards? Can > (has) anyone find the parts that make up Slytherin (as a word)? > Well, the word definitely has serpentine connotations. I have to constantly hit the backspace when I type it out, because I keep making it "Slythering", which is similar to "slithering", of course. I think that's where it came from. Of course, you could also stick a space in the middle and have "sly therein", which certainly describes what kind of people you'll find in the house! Andrea __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From ivanova at idcnet.com Sat Apr 26 04:01:45 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 23:01:45 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Redeemed!Dudley? References: Message-ID: <000901c30ba8$8eb23200$41ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 56200 From: herm - own - ninny I came upon this quote from JKR when reading the summery of 'things we know about OOP' from Book Magazine(http://www.bookmagazine.com/issue28/unfogging.shtml) "Also, fans should keep an eye on [their son] Dudley. It's probably too late for Aunt Petunia and Uncle Vernon. I feel sorry for Dudley. I might joke about him, but I feel truly sorry for him because I see him as just as abused as Harry." I know there's been a lot of talk about Redeemed!Draco, but this quote just screams Redeemed!Dudley to me. The fact that JKR tells us to keep an eye on him, and then says it's too late for Vernon and Petunia, implies that it's not too late for Dudley. Not that I necesarily want Dudley redeemed - he's no Draco Malfoy that's for sure . But it's a thought, and something I've never even begun to consider. I mean, as it stands Dudley is a very minor character. We see him at the beginning of each book and usually forget about him the rest of time. What can he possibly do that'll be worth keeping an eye on? From: Me Perhaps. I remember thinking about a year ago along the same lines as JKR. We always think "Poor Harry" when we think about his life at the Dursleys, but she's right. Dudley is abused as well, but just differently. They indulge his every whim. They overfeed him. They favor him. They are turning him into a huge person that is completely out of touch with reality and how it really works, as his life is not how everyone else in the Muggle world lives. My thoughts did lead me to this observation, though. Is it just me, or do the Dursleys sometimes act like they're afraid of Dudley? At his 11th birthday party, for instance, he notices he has less presents than this year. He is on the verge of throwing a temper tantrum. The Dursleys scurry to do anything they can to pacify him so he will not get angry. There have been other times in the series when the Dursleys give in to Dudley. From a normal child-rearing standpoint, this obviously is not good for the child. However, what if they are afraid of what he might do if he has a temper tantrum? One of the things Hagrid said to prove to Harry that he was a wizard is asked him if he'd ever done magic when he was angry or frightened. It makes me wonder if the Dursleys are afraid that Dudley might end up taking after his aunt Lily. This could actually explain a lot of their behavior, both with Dudley and with Harry. Of course, this has probably been covered before (yes, I've only been a poster for a couple of days), but I'm interested to hear what other people think on this. Could this be why JKR said to keep an eye on Dudley? On a side note, I clicked on the link for the Book Magazine article, and I got a message saying the page couldn't be found. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova/ From ehawkes at iinet.net.au Sat Apr 26 06:09:20 2003 From: ehawkes at iinet.net.au (Emma Hawkes) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 14:09:20 +0800 Subject: Dean Thomas/Differences Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56201 According to Edward Olson's list of differences in the Philosopher's Stone/Sorceror's Stone, the two texts read: UK edition: '... three people left to be sorted. "Turpin, Lisa" became...' US edition: '.... three people left to be sorted. "Thomas, Dean", a Black boy even taller than Ron, joined Harry at the Gryffindor table. "Turpin, Lisa" became....' Thanks for the help. emma From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Sat Apr 26 04:51:03 2003 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 04:51:03 -0000 Subject: Longbottoms, St. Mungos, Lucius, and Celestina... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56202 Ari, Hi, welcome to the group! You raised some great questions. I think many of them were dicussed about a month ago--check the archives (aways back, there's tons of stuff about Neville being Memory-charmed and the questionable donations to Saint Mungo's) Have fun! imamommy From Neotoma73 at aol.com Sat Apr 26 10:42:24 2003 From: Neotoma73 at aol.com (Neotoma73 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 06:42:24 -0400 Subject: Harry & Lord Voldemort's Wands Message-ID: <55CA5D16.28DAD048.026A9F31@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56203 In a message dated 4/25/2003 4:30:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com writes: > Also, I thought the wood would come into play as well. Previous posts > have shown us how closely related the Holly and Yew are. Both have > descriptions of death/rebirth/life. This would relate the > wands as well as their cores right? As to the wands, remember that holly is a *very* dense wood, eeriely white in color, and is sacred in a number of traditions -- the evergreen quality and its winter berries are often symbols of renewal, life, and hope. Yew is often planted in cemetaries, and has connotations of death and mourning but also immortality and rebirth. The similiarities between Voldemort and Harry's wands are just another example of the parallels between them -- in many ways, they are reflected each other. AnneL From Neotoma73 at aol.com Sat Apr 26 11:00:43 2003 From: Neotoma73 at aol.com (Neotoma73 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 07:00:43 -0400 Subject: Muggles and potions Message-ID: <574AF80D.550128AA.026A9F31@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56204 In a message dated 4/25/2003 1:08:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com writes: > I have been wondering that a lot myself. in PS/SS, Snape warns that some might not think it's magic because there is no "silly wand waving." But magic indeed it is. Perhaps you need magical ability to mix the ingredients without being injured, since some of the materials are caustic? Or maybe some of your magic is infused in the potions without using a wand. Or, perhaps there is some kind of incantation that gets recited over the cauldron, but we simply haven't been privvy to them? (Least likely). It's a very good question, and I > would like an answer too. There's got to be some magic involved, probably to catalyze the transformation into a working potion. As an example, the asphodel and wormwood infusion Snape asks Harry about in the very first class would be a very toxic mess unless magic was involved to change it into something useful instead of posionous. "Wand waving" might not be needed in potions-brewing, but some magical power -- just to make those ingridients drinkable, let alone effective -- would be necessary. This possibly might be another reason Wolfsbane in hard to brew. Not only is it complex, but the raw power needed to make it effective instead of lethal (if it contains real wolfsbane, for one!) might be unusually high. AnneL From eloiseherisson at aol.com Sat Apr 26 13:20:05 2003 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 09:20:05 EDT Subject: Fantastic Posts and Where to Find Them (was: The Living Philosopher's Stone Message-ID: <105.2d307f06.2bdbe185@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56205 Bill: > > I have often thought that it was a terrible shame that so many > wonderful posts to this board end up buried deep in the archives, > never to be seen again. I myself have participated in, or simply > read, many threads which delved into symbolism, foreshadowing, ect. > in the HP books. Sadly, this board has little in the way of search > functions, so most have never been seen again. > > It would be a monumental task to re-read every post to this board, > but if somebody were to do so, marking out the 'significant' posts > along the way, it would be of enormous value. This would be a HUGE > task, as this board is currently using 197 MB, compared to the 90 KB > for 15 000 words of my post. By simple algebra, 197 MB would be > roughly 33 million words, in over 56 000 posts - 600 words per post. > The actual value would be something less than this number - maybe > half, which is still greater than 15 million words. > I tried to reply to this twice via webview yesterday and it kept getting eaten. Grrr! I just thought I'd take this opporunity to remind everyone about our great site, Fantastic Posts and Where to Find them, http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/ which attempts to do just what you ask. The link is actually there on the home page, but unfortunately it isn't live, so it doesn't really stand out. This contains a selection of essays on characters and topics of relevance to HP and HPfGU, drawing on and linking to the posts of many members, past and present. The work is by no means completed (I doubt that will be possible for a long time, given the productivity of our list members!), but you may be interested to learn that between last October and this February, a group of us did indeed catalogue the contents of nearly 17000 posts, to act as a resource for those updating old and writing new essays for the site. As for the subject of this thread, you would find it, with live links to the key posts first time around, under 'Stoned!Harry' in Hypothetic Alley (HPfGU's Wildest Speculations): http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/hypotheticalley.html which is also to be found on the Fantastic Posts site. ~Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Sat Apr 26 14:02:16 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 07:02:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: Percy and Penelope In-Reply-To: <3EA9FF3B.EBBBF740@cloudnet.com> Message-ID: <20030426140216.97006.qmail@web20003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56206 --- Pat and Jim Gruenke wrote: > > Waters Law wrote: > > > > And this brings me to the issue of Penelope > Clearwater. Why was she with Hermione when > > they were petrified in CoS? Harry and Ron > believed her to be coming > > from the Slytherin common room when they were > polyjuiced > > into "Crabbe" and "Goyle". Is she involved with > Slytherin and > > particularly, is she manipulating Percy? > Remember, Harry and Ron > > also found Percy wandering in the area of > Slytherin's commons. Were > > Percy and Penelope just looking for a good quiet > place to get cozy > > together or is something up? > > > > My take: > > Penelope and Hermione were both studying in the > library when Hermione > figured out the creature was a Basilisk. They used > a mirror to check > around the corner, and got Petrified. I assumed > that Penelope wasn't > much of a Quidditch fan and was just in the library > by chance. > > And as for Harry and Ron "believing" she was coming > from the Slytherin > common room, they were grasping at straws. I'm > guessing that she and > ol' Percy were just in an abandoned classroom for a > little kissy-face, > thus explaining why they were in the same area of > the castle. > > Don't think she's in cahoots with the Slytherins. > Don't think she would > have gotten Petrified if she had been. I agree. And when it comes to Penelope, I must bring up something that I heard elsewhere. I don't remember who said it or where, but I agree with it so strongly that I shall repeat. We don't know a lot about Penelope, but what we do know is telling. She listed to a *second year* from another house. She listened to Hermione about the basilisk. I think that she did that says something about her character; she doesn't dismiss people. I like that. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From hollydaze at btinternet.com Sat Apr 26 15:31:55 2003 From: hollydaze at btinternet.com (Hollydaze) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 16:31:55 +0100 Subject: honorifics Message-ID: <004a01c30c08$f8e477e0$535a8751@j0dhe> No: HPFGUIDX 56207 I know this is four days late for thsi thread but I only noticed it last night and I didn't notice it in any of teh other posts. Patricia Bullington-McGuire wrote: > Possibly, but it also seems to be used primarily by women who are in > positions of authority. Madam Hooch, Madam Pomfrey and Madam Pince are > all important people at the school and children are expected to obey them, > even if they are not full professors. Madam Rosmerta's position doesn't > seem as lofty (perhaps that's why she seems to use her first name with > 'Madam'), but she is the proprietor of her own establishment and is the > head honcho within those doors. Or, calling a glorified barmaid 'Madam' > may be a friendly joke and/or term of affection, informally elevating her > to a position of authority that she doesn't technically qualify for. JOdel said (in reply to Fox): > Because we are depending on the perceptions of a Muggle-raised PoV character. > Have we ever heard Molly Weasley actually *called* Mrs. Weasley by anyone > other than Harry or the narriator? Have we ever heard Draco's mother *called* > Mrs Malfoy? I don't think so. That's Harry filling in the blanks acording to > the customs in which he was raised. > > The witches who are refered to as "Madam" such-and-such are the ones he has > *heard* refered to as such. I suspect that inside the wizarding world it is > Madam Malfoy and Madam Weasley, not Mrs. JOdel may actually be right. I've just re-read the first few chapters of POA and noticed that on the Knight Bus a *Madam* Marsh is mentioned as getting off the bus. Ernie says "best go wake up Madam Marsh, Stan" (POA UK Hardback Pg 32) and then a "faintly green witch in a travelling cloak" follows Stan down the stairs and gets off. Madam Marsh isn't in a position of authority as far as we know. Although it could be argued that she is and Ernie and Stan know it but we don't - but that seems like pushing it a bit ;) HOLLYDAZE!!! "No one's going to try and kill you until we've sorted a few things out," said Lupin. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rvotaw at i-55.com Sat Apr 26 15:51:08 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 10:51:08 -0500 Subject: Lockhart's wand Message-ID: <009c01c30c0b$b30f6510$19a2cdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 56208 I was listening to CoS in the car this week, and had never noticed this before. After Harry disarmed Lockhart, Ron threw Lockhart's wand out the window. Why out the window? In TMTMNBN2 they just told him to drop it. Left it in the office. Why not stick it in their pocket? Ron could've done with a better wand at the moment. Especially considering the one he had (besides being broken) was a hand me down anyway. For that matter, why note it at all? Could've just had Harry disarm, he or Ron grab it and leave it at that. But Ron throws it out the window. Where anyone wandering the grounds could find. It's not mentioned again in the book. So either someone picked it up or it's still laying out there (which I doubt). Who has the wand? Did Dumbledore discover it when he returned to Hogwart's? Doubtful, since it's not mentioned when he says Lockhart's awfully quiet about his part and so on. Did Hagrid find it when he returned from Azkaban? Possible. Did Filch pick it up? Did a student find it and return it to Dumbledore and it's just not mentioned? Or did a student keep it? Or someone else? Scabbers/Peter could've done with a wand, but didn't he take Lupin's? Does anyone have an opinion about what happened to this wand? Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Sat Apr 26 14:20:39 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 14:20:39 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Lucius/Rita. A bit of OoPy speculation. In-Reply-To: <20030425160245.8715.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56209 There's a bit of a breeze blowing outside The Royal George. A rather foreboding breeze, shaking the trees a bit and making bay residents turn up their coat collars. Inside the pub, however, it's rather cosy, as Avery, who had been staring morbidly at a point in the wall and rocking back and forth, has just lit a small fire in the middle of his table. Eileen is holding forth. "Hermione isn't the only one who's got Rita Skeeter's number. I mean, would you be much afraid of Hermione?" "I most certainly wouldn't!" cries Cindy. "I wouldn't tangle with Lucius Malfoy, though," says Eileen. There is a long pause. "Guess who now knows that Rita's an animagus, as soon as Draco rushes home to tell everything..." Kirstini looks up from the bar, where she has been building a house of beer mats. "Now, this Lucius Malfoy thing. I'm not sure " she says slowly. "Actually, I'm a little dry. George, would you be so kind as to mix me up a long vodka? And whatever everyone else is having, of course." George eyes the Captain warily. "On my head be it. I promise." says Kirstini, smiling sweetly. Captain Cindy stiffens. "Sailor! You aren't *flirting* with George, are you?" "Not a bit of it Cap'n!" Kirstini attempts a clumsy salute, and knocks over her beer mat house. "Oh, blast. Right. Lucius Malfoy. Now, I don't buy the Hermione/blackmail thing either, because I think there's something Hermione hasn't considered. Rita saw Sirius transform. She's got them in a double bind. Anyway " (a pause as she whips out a small pocket canon imprinted with the words "A Tourist's Guide To Theory Bay", and tries to hide the title with her hand as she flips through it). "Ah yes. The official line on the Draco /Rita thing is as follows: "[The Slytherins] wouldn't care that she was doing something illegal, as long as they were giving her horrible stuff "(GoF, UK edition, p613) So, it seems to me that there are a few main lines of thought to follow on this one. Firstly, will Lucius really care that Rita Skeeter is an unregistered animagus? He only bothers about wizarding laws when there's something in it for him. Draco doesn't know what she heard when hiding on the windowsill, and therefore the only possible use that Lucius could find for Rita was in blackmailing her into poisoning her readers' minds for the good of the Dark side. So the next thing to think about is Rita's potential for evil." Captain Cindy produces her Virtue meter print out, and bangs it down on the bar, knocking over Kirstini's resurrected beer mat house. "Rita Skeeter was just doing her job," she slurs firmly. "She got a bit of a kick out of it, though, didn't she?" observes Eileen. "Evil. I'm telling you." She folds her arms disapprovingly. "Did you know you can make a Drambuie glass suction on to your hand if you set it on fire?" says Kirstini, dreamily. "Then you suck the fumes from under your hand. They taste all malty " "Sailor!" snaps the Captain. "Focus!" "Right. Rita's potential for evil. If I could refer my esteemed colleagues to the above quotation. It would appear, by the use of the word "illegal", that judgement is being passed on Rita Skeeter. Sirius and James, who are in a similar state to Rita vis. the nature of their transgression, are always referred to as "unregistered" animagus. Not "illegal". There's a world of difference in the implications of those two words. However, Rita is morally in the same league as a character like Lockhart. She's primarily a comic character with a nasty side to her. A bit vindictive " "And disturbed " interjects Cindy, snorting wildly. Something about her expression causes George to murmur "I'm OUT of Kahlua." "A bit vindictive, but not *evil*" says Kirstini. "Right. Now the good stuff. Rita is being blackmailed not to write anything horrible about anyone for a whole year. She's trying to find a way of breaking the story. Lucius is going to have to approach her. I believe you know my son, something like that. I don't think, what with the return of Voldemort and all she's going to be top priority on his list, but let's say he does anyway. IT HAS NEVER BEEN PROVEN THAT HE IS A DEATHEATER. She may have her suspicions, but she can't come straight out and say them. He doesn't know about all this info that she has. How, therefore, do we get to the point where she reveals to him what she knows, and he makes her keep quiet? I think the narrative would require the scene where this comes about to be first-hand rather than reported ipso facto ? it's going to be a long negotiation, and you can't just paraphrase all that. This would have to be a private meeting, one that can't be accidentally overheard from the wrong chimney in Knockturn Alley, i.e. ? a scene that isn't witnessed by Harry. JKR doesn't really go in for them. It can't be Lucius that keeps her quiet ? and yet, she HAS to be kept quiet. Because of Lucius, and all the other D.E's. Sure, somebody's got to break the news that Voldemort's back and Sirius is innocent, but think about all the other stuff she knows. She isn't likely to sit tight on anything. Former Death Eater on Hogwarts Staff? That'll go down well. Hogwarts Potions master Severus Snape has been seen revealing his Dark Mark to the Minister of Magic. The DE's then know that Snape's willing to out himself ? and them. He's toast. Too quick. No. She *has* to be kept quiet. Otherwise we get to a boy lying in a flowerbed halfway through the summer, and since we last saw him, Rita has opened her mouth and told all to the world. It doesn't work. I just don't see *how* to shut her up!" She finishes her drink, and looks up. "You are right, though Cap'n. She definitely Bangs." Kirstini clambers off the bar and perches on a stool, rubbing her head. Eileen and Derranimer look a little annoyed that they had to put up with all that for a non-conclusion, so Kirstini buys them both another drink, and smiles winningly. Cindy grins smugly, through her hiccups. The brief silence is broken as George, carrying a soda siphon, vaults over the bar to the corner of the pub, where Avery has just set fire to the hem of his robe. _____________________________________________________________________ Kirstini From meboriqua at aol.com Sat Apr 26 16:06:11 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 16:06:11 -0000 Subject: Harry, life debts and the meaning of slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56210 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "werebearloony" wrote: > 1) Does Voldemort now owe a life debt to Harry? After all Harry did help (not voluntarily but he did help) restore V. to life. So then V. is definitely in Harry's debt, (Wormtail's too but that's less important) and could this someday save Harry's life. Dumbledore said that this life debt stuff was " magic at it's deepest most impenitrible."(POA) So even V. who is playing around with life and death already shouldn't be able to get around the fact that he owes his life to Harry.> Nah. Life debts seem to be owed when the saver *chooses* to save the other's life. Harry was kidnapped and then tortured by Voldemort. He was tied, gagged and forced to give his blood. This is very different than what happened in PoA with Wormtail. Harry had the opportunity to take Wormtail's life, but he chose not to. No one stood in Harry's way. In fact, Sirius and Lupin were all but encouraging Harry to kill Wormtail. The other thing to consider is the fact that Voldemort's life wasn't really at stake to begin with. It was Voldemort's *body* he was planning to get back, not his life. For that alone, I'd say there's no life debt. Ah, and the last thing is that after Voldemort kidnapped Harry, had Cedric murdered in front of Harry, and tortured Harry, he was just about to kill Harry himself when Harry escaped. If Harry had been able to, I am sure he would have destroyed Voldemort, but at the time, he needed to save his own life and get the hell out of there. What I'm trying to say is that the entire situation was a set up and Voldemort's bidding. It was orchestrated by Voldemort, carried out by Voldemort and then failed by Voldemort because after getting his body back, part of the plan was to take Harry's life as well. Maybe Harry should thank Voldemort for being too arrogant and wanting to duel instead of simply killing Harry, because that is what enabled Harry to get away. --jenny from ravenclaw, who of course doesn't think Harry should ever thank Voldemort for anything ever ************************************** From andie at knownet.net Sat Apr 26 16:08:26 2003 From: andie at knownet.net (grindieloe) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 16:08:26 -0000 Subject: Lockhart's wand In-Reply-To: <009c01c30c0b$b30f6510$19a2cdd1@RVotaw> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56211 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > > Does anyone have an opinion about what happened to this [Lupin's] wand? > > Richelle During their first DADA class, didn't the Cornish Pixies also grab Lupin's wand and throw it out the window? Mmmm.... twice his wand gets thrown out the window... "curious..." grindieloe From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sat Apr 26 17:38:27 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 18:38:27 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dean & Crusty Lee References: <1051306256.2824.45013.m9@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001001c30c1a$a5c2dcc0$d04d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 56212 Laila wrote > I thought that it was Collin Creevey that's dad was a milkman. I will have to look for the >description of Dean in my book. The only thing that I remember them saying was that he was tall, >black, and supported West Ham. I note Emma's posting on the subject of the differences. It's not an insignificant change between the two editions, presumably JKR has never explained its inclusion. > Okay... What in the heck is a crusty?!!! It sounds like some sort of skin disorder! Crusties is another term for New Age Travellers, a no-nonsense bunch of alternative folks who took to the roads in convoys (for mutual protection), held festivals, and generally pissed off the establishment. I don't know how many of them are still going, as they are no longer in the public eye the way they were in the 80s and 90s when they attracted a lot of "moral panic" from the media and state repression. But they were noted for wearing their hair in dreads. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Sat Apr 26 18:06:26 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 18:06:26 -0000 Subject: Longbottoms, St. Mungos, Lucius, and Celestina... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56213 imamommy wrote: >Ari, >Hi, welcome to the group! You raised some great questions. I think >many of them were dicussed about a month ago--check the archives >(aways back, there's tons of stuff about Neville being Memory- >charmed and the questionable donations to Saint Mungo's) Have fun! For Memory-Charmed!Neville, see this "essay" on Hypothetic Alley: http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/hypotheticalley.html#memorycharm There's a long list of posts there. The Memory Charm Symposium, which is a three-part comprehensive post on the theory, is in messages: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/38812 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/38813 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/38848 They're all really interesting. Maria From ratchick22 at hotmail.com Sat Apr 26 18:28:27 2003 From: ratchick22 at hotmail.com (herm - own - ninny) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 18:28:27 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Redeemed!Dudley? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56214 >From: "Kelly Grosskreutz" My thoughts did lead me to this observation, >though. Is it just me, >or do the Dursleys sometimes act like they're >afraid of Dudley? At >his 11th birthday party, for instance, he notices he >has less presents >than this year. He is on the verge of throwing a temper >tantrum. The >Dursleys scurry to do anything they can to pacify him so he >will not >get angry. There have been other times in the series when the > >Dursleys >give in to Dudley. From a normal child-rearing standpoint, > >this obviously is not good for the child. However, what if they are > >afraid of what he might do if he has a temper tantrum? One of the > >things Hagrid said to prove to Harry that he was a wizard is asked him > >if he'd ever done magic when he was angry or >frightened. >It makes me wonder if the Dursleys are afraid that Dudley might end up >taking after his aunt Lily. ...(edited) >On a side note, I clicked on the link for the Book Magazine article, >and I >got a message saying the page couldn't be found. > Me: Well first off, sorry about the bad link. I found it through the Leaky Cauldron, so if you go there (www.the-leaky-cauldron.org) and find the April 23 Book Magazine blurb, you ought to get a working link. Now, as for Wizard!Dudley, I think this would also work well with the "someone developing magical powers later in life" hint that JKR dropped. I had always thought that someone would be Filch, but I see no reason why Dudley can't be a late blooming wizard. However, if you're suggesting that he -already- has magic powers, hence the Dursley's being afraid of him, then I would disagree. If that were the case, then why didn't he get a letter from Hogwarts? Also, Dudley himself seems frightened of magic. In CoS, when Harry does a faux spell on him out in the garden, he runs away terrfied. I've never gotton the impression that Petunia and Vernon are afraid of Dudley, just afraid of upsetting him. Not because he can do any significant harm, but because they love him to death and don't want to bring on a temper tantrum of screaming and crying. They cannot deal with these temper tantrums because they have lost their position of authority over Dudley, so they try their best to avoid them. Also, based on the way they treat Harry and refer to Lily and James as "freaks," I would think they'd be less enthusiastic about their son had he displayed any inclination towards magic. dina _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From melclaros at yahoo.com Sat Apr 26 18:31:52 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 18:31:52 -0000 Subject: Vampire Snape/Knowing Lucius was a DE/Remus as Spy (WAS: Thoughts and questions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56215 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rane_ab" wrote: >It is quite possible he got teased for it, after all. Still doesn't >explain why Lupin assigned the essay in the first place. me: I believe Lupin's assignment tells us far more about his sense of humor than anything about Snape. It is pretty likely that students call Snape 'the vampire'--no, there's nothing in canon to support that other than offhand comments about him being able to turn into a bat--but seeing how rampant the idea is with readers I think HW students would pick up on it as well. It would follow that students in Severus' and Remus' own school years might have also used the taunt. So, Remus, being Remus simply decided to push Snape's buttons and assign a vampire essay. Remus IS a werewolf--there would be little point to him being upset by the werewolf essay, but as Severus is NOT (IMO) a vampire--*that* assignment would annoy they h*ll out of him. Especially since he'd be expected to sub again in 28 days and was bound to get a question or two.... Melpomene: Who once wrote a chapter of a fanfic in which teenage Severus and his common-room cronies actually USED the vampire 'resemblance' in a great caper! **"One day in the library Hugh Delamere started my robes smoking with some hex and a dozen girls ran out sobbing. A few first and second year boys went with them. I got a week detention for that."** From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 26 19:32:19 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:32:19 -0000 Subject: Redeemed!Dudley? In-Reply-To: <000901c30ba8$8eb23200$41ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56216 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly Grosskreutz" wrote: > From: herm - own - ninny > > I came upon this quote from JKR when reading the summery of 'things we know > about OOP' from Book > Magazine(http://www.bookmagazine.com/issue28/unfogging.shtml) > > "Also, fans should keep an eye on [their son] Dudley. It's > probably too latefor Aunt Petunia and Uncle Vernon. I feel sorry > for Dudley. I might joke about him, but I feel truly sorry for him > because I see him as just as abused as Harry." > > I know there's been a lot of talk about Redeemed!Draco, but this > quote just screams Redeemed!Dudley to me. The fact that JKR tells > us to keep an eye on him, and then says it's too late for Vernon > and Petunia, implies that it'snot too late for Dudley. Not that I > necesarily want Dudley redeemed - he's no Draco Malfoy that's for > sure . But it's a thought, and something I've never even begun > to consider. Pip!Squeak. Yup. Redeemed!Dudley even has his very own 'ambiguous scene', like Redeemed!Draco's 'did he/didn't he warn Hermione' in GoF. It's in CoS Chapter One. Dudley comes out and starts teasing Harry about how no one has sent him any cards or presents on his birthday. It's not until you start to think about it that you realise how *odd* it is that Dudley should remember Harry's birthday. His parents have completely ignored it, being wrapped up in the all- important visit of the Masons. The average twelve year old often has to be reminded of the exact date of their sibling's birthdays. Dudley remembers without any prompting. Further, the teasing shows that he's noticed something else that his parents are ignoring - that none of Harry's school friends have sent cards. So it's ... odd. Was Dudley just teasing Harry? Or was there actually a vague feeling of concern at the back of the teasing? Did he want Harry to say something like 'my cards arrived by owl, that's why you haven't seen any.' Then they could have a fight (because Harry's not supposed to use owls), but Dudley would be reassured that yes, his cousin did have friends at his new school. Or did Dudley genuinely not know what his motives were, having been brought up all his life to bully Harry? > > From: Kelly > > Perhaps. I remember thinking about a year ago along the same > lines as JKR.We always think "Poor Harry" when we think about his > life at the Dursleys, but she's right. Dudley is abused as well, > but just differently. They indulge his every whim. They overfeed > him, turning him into a huge person that is completely out of > touch with reality and how it really works, as his life is not how > everyone else in the Muggle world lives. > Yup, again. Petunia treats Dudley like a baby, not like a boy of secondary school age. Look at her nicknames for him. 'Dinky Duddydums' [PS/SS Ch. 2 p.22]. 'Ickle Dudleykins' [PS/SS Ch. 3 p.29]. 'Duddy' [PoA, Ch.2 p. 20] (where she also says 'Mummy's bought him a lovely new bow-tie'; as if Dudley was three, rather than 13). 'Diddy darling' in GoF Ch.3 p. 29. Look at the way she acts when the 11-year-old Dudley can't add 37 + 2 in his head [PS/SS ch. 2 p.21]. Dudley is actually struggling his way through to the answer. Instead of letting her child practice a necessary skill, Petunia just tells him 'Thirty-nine, sweetums'. Ironically, the Dursley's prepare Harry much better for adult life than they do Dudley. In Book 1, Harry can cook breakfasts. In Book 2, he can do the standard household things like wash cars, clean windows, mow lawns, simple painting, basic gardening. In Book 3 we see that because he knows he can expect *no* monetary help from the Dursley's, Harry's careful with the money he has got. At 18, Harry is probably going to be quite capable of looking after himself. He can cook, clean, and budget. Dudley, on the other hand, shows no sign at all that his parents have ever asked him to do anything for himself. He has others cook for him, he doesn't do any household jobs, and if he wants something enough to scream for it, his parents buy it for him. So he can't cook, he can't clean, and he's been encouraged to buy whatever he wants when he wants it, whether or not he can afford it. Dudley's weight progresses throughout the four books so far. In the first book he's very fat. At this point he's lived at home all his life, and (as you say) has very little contact with the real world. Dudley is the king of his little world, at home and at school. In the second book his bottom is so large it droops over the side of the chair, he's demanding second helpings at breakfast, and he's waddling. He's interacting normally with Harry, though (well, normally for Dudley) and is co-operative towards his parents. In the third book (PoA) Dudley has five chins, is living in the kitchen and is eating continuously. Which is scary. It's the sort of behaviour you'd expect from an unhappy child, who was eating for comfort. His behaviour to his parents doesn't seem as co-operative, either. His father's friendly offer of a ride to the station to meet his Aunt is met with a flat 'No.' By book four, Dudley is, of course, on the famous diet. He's too fat to fit any of the school uniforms. The school nurse is worried about his health. His parents are finally concerned enough to take action. > My thoughts did lead me to this observation, though. Is it just > me, or do the Dursleys sometimes act like they're afraid of > Dudley? At his 11th birthday party, for instance, he notices he > has less presents than this year. He is on the verge of throwing > a temper tantrum. The Dursleys scurry to do anything they can to > pacify him so he will not get angry. There have been other times > in the series when the Dursleys give in to Dudley. From a normal > child-rearing standpoint, this obviously is not good for the child. > However, what if they are afraid of what he might do if he has a > temper tantrum? One of the things Hagrid said to prove to Harry > that he was a wizard is asked him if he'd ever done magic when he > was angry or frightened. > It makes me wonder if the Dursleys are afraid that Dudley might > end up taking after his aunt Lily. I don't think so myself. The first time we actually see Dudley (on the very first page of PS/SS), he's screaming his head off. And he's being ignored. He's a bit too young for 'ignore him, it's only a temper tantrum' (fifteen months); but Vernon is selecting what tie he should wear for work, Petunia is gossiping, and both are ignoring the fact that their baby son is screaming. A little later, Dudley has a full-scale tantrum, and Vernon finds this amusing. So right from the start of Dudley's life, his parents show inappropriate behaviour towards him. They never seem to see a 'real Dudley'. They see a Dudley who is 'no finer boy anywhere'. The fact that their `fine boy' is unhappy is inconvenient, and is ignored. When Dudley is older, Vernon uses him. Vernon constantly threatens Harry with physical violence. Now, if Vernon actually hits Harry, and someone at school notices Harry's bruises, Vernon will be in big trouble. In canon, there is no time when Vernon *actually* hits Harry. But we are told that Dudley constantly bullies Harry. Dudley chases him, pokes him, hits him [Chapter 2 of PS/SS]. And Vernon encourages this: `Get the post, Dudley' said Uncle Vernon `Make Harry get it.' `Get the post, Harry.' `Make Dudley get it.' `Poke him with your Smeltings stick, Dudley.' [PS/SS Ch. 3 pp.29 ? 30] Vernon uses Dudley. He uses him to physically attack Harry, because he doesn't dare do it himself, and he knows that Dudley (as a child) can get away with it. Far from *discouraging* his temper, they ignore or *encourage* it. Aunt Marge (a truly horrific creation) repeats exactly the same pattern, in spades. Dudley's used to get at Harry. `She delighted in comparing Harry with Dudley, and took huge pleasure in buying Dudley expensive presents while glaring at Harry, as though daring him to ask why he hadn't got a present too.' [PoA, Ch. 2, p.24] Does Dudley feel genuinely loved by Aunt Marge? Or does he realise that all the presents are really just so Marge can enjoy hurting Harry? There's a hint that he's got Marge sized up earlier ? `Harry knew that Dudley only put up with Aunt Marge's hugs because he was well paid for it [p.22]. I doubt very much that Dudley feels safe in his parents' house. His father consistently threatens his foster brother with violence, and really, I think that `is he going to turn on me?' must be somewhere in the back of Dudley's mind. His Aunt is also a horrific bully, and his mother doesn't do anything to stop either of them. In fact, the only child in the Dursley household who is actually, canonically hit by an adult is Dudley. [PS/SS Ch. 3 p.35]. It's probably also pretty significant that Dudley destroys the things his parents and relatives buy him. They don't pay attention to what Dudley needs (really needs), they just buy him expensive toys. And when he loses his temper ? he destroys the expensive toys. Those destructive tantrums are a way of getting back at people who don't show him real affection. Another interesting point is when Mr Weasley sees Dudley in GoF. Mr Weasley is an adult outside the family dynamic and a fairly competent parent. Mr Weasley spots Dudley's behaviour as really worrying almost as soon as he sees him. Even Harry notices that Mr Weasley is `genuinely concerned'. [GoF Ch. 4 p. 45] It's in line with the school report, with its worries for Dudley's health. Adults outside the Dursley family are worried about Dudley. Is Dudley redeemable? Probably. Like Harry, he spends most of the year outside his family environment. Unlike Harry, he's not adapting well to being outside the family (bad marks, bullying others) ? but at least, like Harry, he has other adults who are becoming concerned. Perhaps by the end of Book Seven, we'll understand the comment JKR makes in Book Two: `Malfoy made Dudley Dursley look like a kind, thoughtful and sensitive boy.' [CoS Ch. 3 p.27] Perhaps by Book Seven, we'll find that Dudley has it within him to be kind, thoughtful and sensitive. ;-) Pip!Squeak (aka Pip) From bard7696 at aol.com Sat Apr 26 19:47:10 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:47:10 -0000 Subject: Vampire Snape/Knowing Lucius was a DE/Remus as Spy (WAS: Thoughts and questions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56217 Melpomene wrote: > So, Remus, being Remus simply decided to push Snape's buttons and > assign a vampire essay. Remus IS a werewolf--there would be little > point to him being upset by the werewolf essay, but as Severus is NOT > (IMO) a vampire--*that* assignment would annoy they h*ll out of him. > Especially since he'd be expected to sub again in 28 days and was > bound to get a question or two.... > Remus thought that Snape assigned the werewolf essay to get students to figure out that Remus was a werewolf, start a panic, and get Remus fired. That's not an inaccurate guess, considering that Snape DID manipulate events to get Lupin fired by "accidentally" letting it slip that Lupin is a werewolf. Yeah, no reason AT ALL for Lupin to get upset about that... So perhaps there is more to it than "Remus being Remus." The "Snape was a picked-on, misunderstood, poor little Goth boy who was born 20 years too early to LARP White Wolf games" routine is pure fanfic contamination. Darrin -- Role-plays a Caitiff masquerading as a Toreador the way role- playing was meant by God to be done, with beer, pizza, Doritos and no freaking black lights. From melclaros at yahoo.com Sat Apr 26 20:17:18 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 20:17:18 -0000 Subject: Vampire Snape/Knowing Lucius was a DE/Remus as Spy (WAS: Thoughts and questions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56218 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > Remus thought that Snape assigned the werewolf essay to get students to figure out that Remus was a werewolf, start a panic, and get Remus fired Remus KNEW Snape didn't want him there. Give him some credit. Do you really think he'd be surprised at ANYTHING Snape would do to that end? > The "Snape was a picked-on, misunderstood, poor little Goth boy who > was born 20 years too early to LARP White Wolf games" routine is >pure fanfic contamination. Absolutely I couldn't agree more--which is why I up-ended it in mine. I find the picked-on little boy stereotype the LEAST likely picture of Severus at school. Everyone gets called *something* at school--if that's what he got I can just see him lapping it up like a cat with a saucer of cream. From hollydaze at btinternet.com Sat Apr 26 20:46:52 2003 From: hollydaze at btinternet.com (Hollydaze) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 21:46:52 +0100 Subject: Astronomy DEPARTMENT? (was: Snape's special title) References: Message-ID: <004b01c30c34$f80648e0$137d8351@j0dhe> No: HPFGUIDX 56219 Dan says: > > There's an entire DEPARTMENT for Astronomy? Just how many astronomy > > teachers are there? As far as I can tell, none of the other > > subjects have entire departments. Throughout all of the books (and > > that whole passage is a good example) it always refers to only > > ONE teacher for each subject. I've never read, for instance, of > > any other Transfiguration teachers besides McGonagal, or Charms > > teachers besides Flitwick (sp?). Silence responded: > Well, the technical definition of Department is just "c. A division > of a school or college dealing with a particular field of knowledge: > the physics department." Could it just be possible to have one > teacher in each division? Unfortunately ;) we're leading back into some of the arguments connected to the "number of students" question but there's something else that doesn't quite fit with the idea of only having one teacher per subject that would support the idea of departments. The books mention a Charms corridor, Peeves shouts it in fact: "STUDENTS OUT OF BED DOWN THE CHARMS CORRIDOR" (PS Pg 118 UK Paperback). It's after Filch nearly catches them in the Trophy room. I always thought the idea of a *subject* corridor implied there was more than one classroom for that subject but why would you need more than one classroom if there is only one teacher per subject? Not to mention the fact that if there is only one teacher with only one classroom then why do they need a rather large castle (it has at least 7 floors plus towers and dungeons) as a school. Makes you wonder what's in the rest of the rooms! HOLLYDAZE!!! "No one's going to try and kill you until we've sorted a few things out," said Lupin. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bard7696 at aol.com Sat Apr 26 20:46:37 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 20:46:37 -0000 Subject: Vampire Snape/Knowing Lucius was a DE/Remus as Spy (WAS: Thoughts and questions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56220 Melpomnee wrote: > > > Remus thought that Snape assigned the werewolf essay to get > students to figure out that Remus was a werewolf, start a panic, and > get Remus fired > > Remus KNEW Snape didn't want him there. Give him some credit. Do you > really think he'd be surprised at ANYTHING Snape would do to that end? Your original post didn't say Remus shouldn't be surprised. It said there was no point to Remus getting upset because he WAS a werewolf. I disagree with that. Of course, he shouldn't be surprised at Snape. No one should be surprised at what that greaseball will do. It's what makes him an interesting character. But he had every right to be upset. Simply put, Lupin could have been letting Snape know that he was prepared to reveal some secrets himself, and to cut the crap with these sneaky werewolf essays. My post, which you cut off before quoting completely, said that Remus had reason to be torked at Snape for trying to get him fired or forcing him to resign. It was a response to your considering Lupin's motivation for tweaking Snape as "Remus being Remus" which insinuates that Remus just tweaked Snape for fun, because, hey, that's what Snape is for, the Mauraders' amusement. After all, we don't know for sure that Snape isn't a vampire, or part- vampire. Or perhaps he's been undergoing a "cure" similar to Lupin's. Darrin From tiefwald at yahoo.com Sat Apr 26 18:16:50 2003 From: tiefwald at yahoo.com (Aaron Crowe) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 11:16:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Professors & their Pets In-Reply-To: <1051343545.1209.96998.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030426181650.12949.qmail@web14702.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56221 Hi ... new to the list and had a question. I've been trying to go through the books to find references to pets owned by some of the Professors. Fawkes is easy, but I was particularly interested in finding out if Snape or McGonagall had a pet, or did they just have mail owls. If anyone who has better referencing and memory skills than I can tell me what you know, I'd much appreciate it. Feel free to private email or send to the group. Thank you!%r%r Aaron Crowe __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From redwoman06 at yahoo.com Sat Apr 26 19:14:13 2003 From: redwoman06 at yahoo.com (redwoman06) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:14:13 -0000 Subject: McGonagall In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56222 Has anyone thought that Dumbledore may be protecting Mcgonagall? With the split in the wizarding world, with those that beleive in Voldemorte's living self, and those who do not. If Dumbledore was taken away (heaven forbid) and Snape too for knowing too much. Wouldn't there still be Mcgonagall there to stay with Hogwarts? Dumbledore: "I have not truly left this place till none here are loyal to me." "Redwoman" From fandulin at hotmail.com Sat Apr 26 21:14:44 2003 From: fandulin at hotmail.com (fandulin) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 21:14:44 -0000 Subject: Against all odds, Harry isn't a mass murderer Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56223 Have anyone else ever marvelled at how well adjusted and socially competent Harry turned out, having grown up with the Dursleys? Think about it...he had no idea about who his parents were, only that they had died in a car crash, and any other inquiries into their lives would surely have netted him a tirade from Vernon. Harry is brutalized by Dudley and his gang of cronies (when they can catch him), at school and at home. He isn't fed well, and even as a baby, Petunia couldn't have given him any more care than was necessary to keep him alive. He has never known any kind of love. He isn't allowed any kind of entertainment. He lives in a tiny cupboard under a staircase, infested with spiders. He's scorned and ridiculed at school. I mean, this goes beyond the bittersweet childhood that the typical "doesn't quite fit in" kid goes through. With the exception of physical abuse from his legal guardians, this is the kind of childhood that often produces serial killers, or at the very least maladjusted, very troubled kids. Yet Harry seems to be unaffected by all of this, and comes through the adversity as a sweet, polite, intelligent, and good-hearted young man. Maybe Lilly and James genes just managed to beat out environment in the fight for Harry. Fandulin From susannahlm at yahoo.com Sat Apr 26 21:28:05 2003 From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (derannimer) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 21:28:05 -0000 Subject: Sorry. The Sudden Movement. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56224 Okay, I know we've all talked about this a thousand times, *but*-- "Snape made a sudden movement, but as Harry looked at him, Snape's eyes flew back to Fudge." The thing that really strikes me about that line is the last clause; it sounds very much as though, whatever Snape is reacting to, he doesn't want Harry to notice that he is so reacting. (And Harry certainly never does notice it like we have.) Which makes me wonder if there's *something* between him and Lucius Malfoy that he wants hidden. That's one reason why I don't care for the "Snape thought Malfoy had really repented of his DE-hood" explanation--it doesn't seem to me to account for the surreptitious nature of that reaction. Does anyone have a better idea than the old Gullible!Snape one? Derannimer From silver_wendigo at yahoo.com Sat Apr 26 21:43:26 2003 From: silver_wendigo at yahoo.com (silver_wendigo) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 21:43:26 -0000 Subject: If Snape is a vampire, he isn't bothered by sunlight... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56225 Hi all. I'm Joe, I've just signed on. It's neat to see that the ideas I've had floating around in my head for months seem to be on other people's minds as well (and have been for a lot longer then I've had them). However, one concept that seems strange to me is that of Professer Snape being a vampire. Assuming J.K. Rowling is giving vampires their traditional folkloric weaknesses (which I believe is likely, considering the references to vampiric weakness to garlic encountered in the books as well as the Lexicon), vampires are destroyed in sunlight. Snape spends an extended period of time in the sun when he referees the Quidditch game in SS. References are made to the match starting in the afternoon (SS pg 221). After the match is over, there is a line about Hogwart's windows "glowing red in the setting sun". (SS pg 225) This makes it clear, the match was played start to finish in sunlight...which would be decidely painful for a vampire, especially one high in the air in the middle of an open field. "Joe" From HallD at upstate.edu Sat Apr 26 21:29:42 2003 From: HallD at upstate.edu (mmemalkin) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 21:29:42 -0000 Subject: Life debts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56226 Maria says: >I believe that in order for a life debt to be created, the "saver" >has to overcome a personal, emotional barrier that might stop him >from saving the other person. It's created when "What is right" is >chosen over "What is easy," or, in other words, what you'd actually >like to do. So, Pettigrew would indeed have a life debt to Harry, >because Harry couldn't care less if Pettigrew died. >James hated (I assume) Snape, but saved him anyway. => life debt. It's my feeling that a couple of conditions must be satisfied for a life debt to exist. First, the "debtor's" life is must be forfeit to the "saver" already. In other words the "saver" is in some way entitled to or justified in taking the person's life. Secondly, the "debtor" comes under the power of the one he has wronged and is spared. Because Pettigrew was responsible in the deaths of Harry's parents, Harry would have been justified in killing him. The life debt wasn't incurred, however, until Harry was actually in a position to take his life. Now Pettigrew "owes" his life because Harry was entitled to take it, and was in a position to do so, but let him keep it. I guess I'm saying I agree with Maria except in the degree. It's more than overcoming a "personal, emotional barrier," (what I take to be an inclination or preference), it's setting aside an entitlement. By these critera, Snape must already have done something to deserve death at James' hands in order to incur a life debt when James saved him. Hmmm, I wonder what that was? ~Mme Malkin From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 26 22:34:02 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 22:34:02 -0000 Subject: If Snape is a vampire, he isn't bothered by sunlight... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56227 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "silver_wendigo" wrote: > Hi all. I'm Joe, I've just signed on. Welcome, Joe! > However, one concept that seems strange to me is that of > Professer Snape being a vampire. > > Assuming J.K. Rowling is giving vampires their traditional folkloric weaknesses (which I believe is likely, considering the references to vampiric weakness to garlic encountered in the books as well as the Lexicon), vampires are destroyed in sunlight. > Depends which folkloric region you're talking about. Vampires being destroyed by sunlight is an invention of Hollywood. Mostly they don't like it, and it reduces their powers considerably. Mostly they wander around in the night. But Dracula wandered around London in daylight. Err... come to think of it, that doesn't prove anything about vampires ability to withstand sunlight [grin]. British weather, eh? However, in PoA, Harry is described as having seen 'pictures of vampires in his Defense Against the Dark Arts' classes. He thinks that Sirius Black looks like a vampire. He *doesn't* think 'gosh, he looks very like Snape.' [PoA Ch. 3p.34] > Snape spends an extended period of time in the sun when he referees the Quidditch game in SS. References are made to the match starting in the afternoon (SS pg 221). After the match is over, there is a line about Hogwart's windows "glowing red in the setting sun". (SS pg 225) This makes it clear, the match was played start to finish in sunlight...which would be decidely painful for a vampire, especially one high in the air in the middle of an open field. > Yeah, but to argue against this point, that match was played sometime in the Spring Term, probably mid-February, in the north of Scotland. It would *not* be strong sunlight. The sun is at a very low angle throughout the British winter. But no, I don't think Snape's a vampire either. I think he looks like a bat. By the end of PoA, the kids have seen pictures of vampires, they've had lessons on vampires, and no one is making jokes about Snape looking like a vampire. They make constant jokes about his looking like a *bat*. Very few bats are vampires. Most are harmless creatures who've got landed with a rather sinister reputation. Some bats are dangerous and deserve their reputation. Which one is Snape? Pip!Squeak (aka Pip) From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Apr 26 22:50:58 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 22:50:58 -0000 Subject: Astronomy DEPARTMENT? (was: Snape's special title) In-Reply-To: <004b01c30c34$f80648e0$137d8351@j0dhe> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56228 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hollydaze" wrote: > Dan says: > > > There's an entire DEPARTMENT for Astronomy? Just how many astronomy teachers are there? .... > > Silence responded: > > Well, the technical definition of Department is just "c. A division of a school or college dealing with a particular field of knowledge: the physics department." Could it just be possible to have one teacher in each division? > Hollydaze: > > ... we're leading back into some of the arguments connected to the "number of students" ...edited... ... the idea of a *subject* corridor implied there was more than one classroom ... but why would you need more than one classroom if there is only one teacher...?... if there is only one teacher with only one classroom then why do they need a rather large castle as a school. Makes you wonder what's in the rest of the rooms! > > HOLLYDAZE!!! bboy_mn: If you've followed the recent discussion of the structure of the school system in UK and the essay on British schools at he HP Lexicon then you know that 5th year("O" levels or whatever they are called now) to a UK student is the equivalent of a high school diploma. Six and seventh year are 'advanced studies' and only attended by about 30% of the students (don't quote me on that), and are referred to as college. I see it as roughly the equivalent of 2 years of Junior College in the US. So, it's possible that the whole structure of teaching changes in 6th and 7th year, new teachers, new subjects, independant study, research, etc.... Although, we know that some of the teacher stay the same (I think Moody taught 6th year students, the Weasley Twins) new teachers for the 'wizard college' years could be introduced. A side note: I find myself wondering if the head of house will sit the students down near the end of 5th year and tell them that they can quit and go out into the world as wizard, or they can continue with advanced studies. I also wonder how many will be temped to leave. Just a thought. bboy_mn From kkearney at students.miami.edu Sat Apr 26 22:57:46 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 22:57:46 -0000 Subject: Muggles and potions In-Reply-To: <574AF80D.550128AA.026A9F31@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56229 Someone wrote: > > I have been wondering that a lot myself. in PS/SS, Snape warns >that some might not think it's magic because there is no "silly wand >waving." But magic indeed it is. Perhaps you need magical ability to >mix the ingredients without being injured, since some of the materials >are caustic? Or maybe some of your magic is infused in the potions >without using a wand. Or, perhaps there is some kind of incantation >that gets recited over the cauldron, but we simply haven't been privvy >to them? (Least likely). And AnneL replied: > There's got to be some magic involved, probably to catalyze the >transformation into a working potion. As an example, the asphodel and >wormwood infusion Snape asks Harry about in the very first class would >be a very toxic mess unless magic was involved to change it into >something useful instead of posionous... "Wand waving" might not be >needed in potions-brewing, but some magical power -- just to make >those ingridients drinkable, let alone effective -- would be >necessary. Not necessarily. We've been told nothing about the chemistry of potion making, so it's very possible that in combination these ingredients lose their poisonous properties through simple chemical reactions. Loss of the functional group that makes it poisonous, for example. I personally believe that potion-making rarely requires magic from the person doing the brewing. Potion-making is considered magic because a) the ingredients used often possess magical properties, and b) the resulting product always has some magical ability. I believe that if Muggles were able to get their hands on the proper ingredients, and if they knew the proper steps to prepare a potion, they could create one just as easily as wizards can. On the same note, I beleive a Muggle could use invisibility cloaks and other magical devices which themselves possess magical ability. -Corinth From drednort at alphalink.com.au Sat Apr 26 23:10:53 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 09:10:53 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Astronomy DEPARTMENT? (was: Snape's special title) In-Reply-To: <004b01c30c34$f80648e0$137d8351@j0dhe> Message-ID: <3EAB9E9D.3138.528AA89@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 56230 On 26 Apr 2003 at 21:46, Hollydaze wrote: > Unfortunately ;) we're leading back into some of the arguments connected to the > "number of students" question but there's something else that doesn't quite fit with the > idea of only having one teacher per subject that would support the idea of > departments. The books mention a Charms corridor, Peeves shouts it in fact: > "STUDENTS OUT OF BED DOWN THE CHARMS CORRIDOR" (PS Pg 118 UK > Paperback). It's after Filch nearly catches them in the Trophy room. I always thought > the idea of a *subject* corridor implied there was more than one classroom for that > subject but why would you need more than one classroom if there is only one teacher > per subject? Not to mention the fact that if there is only one teacher with only one > classroom then why do they need a rather large castle (it has at least 7 floors plus > towers and dungeons) as a school. Makes you wonder what's in the rest of the rooms! Personally speaking, I don't think there's any real reason to assume that just because a Charms corridor is mentioned, that implies more than one Charms classroom (though I certainly wouldn't deny that possibility). When I read it, what it brought to mind was simply something I've seen in a lot of schools - the apparent need to give every location an identifiable name. For my own purposes, I have mapped Hogwarts, and while I certainly can't claim my maps are accurate, as far as I can tell they use every bit of geographical information gleaned from the books. There *does* seem to be a lot of space in Hogwarts being used for so far unidentified purposes, or possibly totally empty (the fifth and sixth floors are nearly empty) - an dmy maps may well be undersized. I've even added in a few of the rooms that we know must exist but have no geographic information on (like the Ravenclaw Common Room) and I *still* have a lot of empty space. Hogwarts definitely seems to have a lot of room for rooms we don't know about yet. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "Almighty Ruler of the all; Whose power extends to great and small; Who guides the stars with steadfast law; Whose least creation fills with awe; Oh grant thy mercy and thy grace; To those who venture into space." From kkearney at students.miami.edu Sat Apr 26 23:26:51 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 23:26:51 -0000 Subject: Sorry. The Sudden Movement. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56231 Derannimer wrote: > "Snape made a sudden movement, but as Harry looked at him, Snape's > eyes flew back to Fudge." > > The thing that really strikes me about that line is the last clause; > it sounds very much as though, whatever Snape is reacting to, he > doesn't want Harry to notice that he is so reacting. (And Harry > certainly never does notice it like we have.) Which makes me wonder > if there's *something* between him and Lucius Malfoy that he wants > hidden. That's one reason why I don't care for the "Snape thought > Malfoy had really repented of his DE-hood" explanation--it doesn't > seem to me to account for the surreptitious nature of that reaction. > > Does anyone have a better idea than the old Gullible!Snape one? Not a theory so much, but a vague thought. I think Snape was reacting, not to Lucius Malfoy's name, but rather to the listing of names in general. In line before the one you quoted, Harry says: "'I saw the Death Eaters! I can give you their names! Lucius Malfoy-'" At this point, Snape reacts. Why? Well, we know Voldemort rarely let his followers know who each other were. But, the Death Eaters in the circle that night did not seem shocked when he began referring to them by name. My thought is that this inner circle did know about each other. They were Voldemort's right hand men, and therefore received priveleges that lower followers did not receive. Now, Snape, at the time of Voldemort's first reign, was very young, just out of high school. From what we know, he doesn't seem to be from a rich, important, or influential family. For these reasons, I doubt he was a member of Voldemort's inner circle. A Death Eater, certainly, and he may have worked his way pretty high in the ranks, but not quite to that level yet. It is possible (probable, in my mind) that he later learned who the inner circle members were while working for Dumbledore. However, Voldemort can't know this for certain. Therefore, Snape may feel a bit at risk if Harry starts listing the names in front of him. Suddenly, with outside witnesses (namely, Fudge) there, he can no longer claim ignorance about these matters. Note: Fudge doesn't need to be evil to accidently leak this info to Voldemort or one of his supporters. Anyway, like I said, this idea isn't very well thought out yet. Basically, Snape is reacting to the names in general, not Malfoy's in particular. -Corinth From bard7696 at aol.com Sat Apr 26 23:40:42 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 23:40:42 -0000 Subject: If Snape is a vampire, he isn't bothered by sunlight... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56232 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "silver_wendigo" wrote: > Hi all. I'm Joe, I've just signed on. It's neat to see that the ideas > I've had floating around in my head for months seem to be on other > people's minds as well (and have been for a lot longer then I've had > them). However, one concept that seems strange to me is that of > Professer Snape being a vampire. > > Assuming J.K. Rowling is giving vampires their traditional folkloric weaknesses (which I believe is likely, considering the references to vampiric weakness to garlic encountered in the books as well as the Lexicon), vampires are destroyed in sunlight. As pipsqueak said, not all folklore has vampires turning to ash in the sun. The Vlad Dracula of Bram Stoker could walk around in the day, albeit a bit more sluggishly than he did at night. And besides, we've already got a half-giant in Hagrid and a werewolf tamed by potions in Lupin and whatever the hell Flitwick is. Why not a half-vampire? I know that under traditional lore, vampires can't mate (notwithstanding Blade) but who cares? Or... Snape has taken similar potions as Lupin to cure himself. I'm not saying I LIKE the idea, but it is possible. Darrin -- Hagrid and the Half-Giants. Very good name for a band, but good luck getting it trademarked. From bard7696 at aol.com Sat Apr 26 23:55:32 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 23:55:32 -0000 Subject: Sorry. The Sudden Movement. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56233 Corinth: > Now, Snape, at the time of Voldemort's first reign, was very young, > just out of high school. From what we know, he doesn't seem to be > from a rich, important, or influential family. We don't know ANYTHING, one way or the other, about Snape's family. Rich, poor, important, pointless, dead, alive, Muggles (I doubt this one), purebloods. We don't know anything. One thing we do know is that Snape knew more curses than most seventh- year wizards when he got to Hogwarts. This could indicate his folks were wizards who had, if not an interest in the Dark Arts, at least a tolerance for Severus learning the Dark Arts. It could also indicate Muggle-born status though, as Snape, like Hermione, tried to do as much as possible to make up for his years out of the magic world. See? What little we have could go either way. For these reasons, I > doubt he was a member of Voldemort's inner circle. A Death Eater, > certainly, and he may have worked his way pretty high in the ranks, > but not quite to that level yet. It is possible (probable, in my > mind) that he later learned who the inner circle members were while > working for Dumbledore. However, Voldemort can't know this for > certain. Therefore, Snape may feel a bit at risk if Harry starts > listing the names in front of him. Suddenly, with outside witnesses > (namely, Fudge) there, he can no longer claim ignorance about these > matters. Note: Fudge doesn't need to be evil to accidently leak this info to Voldemort or one of his supporters. > Problem with Snape being a "lower member." Why did he get the Dark Mark and why was he summoned? Voldemort referred to three missing DEs, besides the ones who are dead or in Azkaban. One serving at Hogwarts, one too cowardly to return and one left forever and marked for death. Snape was supposed to be in that circle. He told Fudge that. When it turned black, he was supposed to apparate and appear by V-Mort's side. On his first night back, the Inner Circle would have been V-Mort's guests of honor. No, the evidence points to Snape being part of that group. And since, as you point out, names were being passed about, he would know who the other members of the circle were. I believe the reaction was to Lucius Malfoy's name. I do agree that it is possible Snape didn't want Harry to see his reaction, and it is also possible that Harry is getting dangerously close to figuring something out about Snape that old Severus doesn't want the kid learning just yet. Darrin From tammy at mauswerks.net Sun Apr 27 01:14:47 2003 From: tammy at mauswerks.net (Tammy Rizzo) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 21:14:47 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dean Thomas In-Reply-To: <002101c30b57$615dbfa0$d04d6551@f3b7j4> Message-ID: <3EAAF6C7.8517.28BA575@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 56234 On 25 Apr 2003 at 19:20, manawydan wrote: > Emma asked: > >I was wondering if anyone out there had the references to the changes > >in the description of Dean Thomas between the English and American > >editions? > > I would be interested in this also. The Lexicon refers to Dean as > being black but I don't remember any reference in canon to this. He > supports West Ham and his dad is a milkman. Okay, I think I'm getting confused here. Dean supports the West Ham soccer/football team, yeah -- I remember Ron poking at Dean's posters to try to get the images to move, like 'normal' photographs. But isn't it Collin Creevy's father who's the milkman? *** Tammy tammy at mauswerks.net From meboriqua at aol.com Sun Apr 27 01:25:40 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 01:25:40 -0000 Subject: Redeemed!Dudley? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56235 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak" wrote: > Dudley, on the other hand, shows no sign at all that his parents > have ever asked him to do anything for himself. He has others cook > for him, he doesn't do any household jobs, and if he wants something > enough to scream for it, his parents buy it for him. So he can't > cook, he can't clean, and he's been encouraged to buy whatever he > wants when he wants it, whether or not he can afford it. > > Dudley's weight progresses throughout the four books so far.> and > I doubt very much that Dudley feels safe in his parents' house. His > father consistently threatens his foster brother with violence, and > really, I think that `is he going to turn on me?' must be somewhere > in the back of Dudley's mind. His Aunt is also a horrific bully, and > his mother doesn't do anything to stop either of them.> I find it hard to believe that Dudley feels unsafe in any way in his own home. Someone else mentioned that Dudley's parents have "lost" control over their son, but I feel that they never had control over Dudley to begin with. Vernon and Petunia's agenda with Dudley is to give him what he wants. Dudley is the one who runs that household - Petunia even makes the rest of the family go on a diet along with Dudley, including Harry who is already noticeably thin. Aside from the diet, Dudley is in complete control: all the presents he wants, all the food he wants, all the trips he wants, all the tantrums he wants and all the coddling he wants. If Dudley does have any worries they would have to be about Harry - after all, it is because of Harry he lost one of his rooms and it is because of Harry he grew a pig's tail and it is because of Harry that his tongue nearly suffocated him. Dudley may worry about Harry assuming more authority in the Dursley home, not Vernon turning on his own son. When I think about the possibility of Dudley being redeemed, the only way I can see that is if he grows increasingly angry at his parents, something we are already seeing. He may develop a hearty resentment of them for allowing him to get so fat and maybe even for keeping Harry around when he has, at least through Dudley's eyes, caused so many problems in their home. I can see a situation with Dudley that is not so different from Draco: Dudley may (like Draco) realize that his parents are not the wonderful people they once were in his eyes. Like Draco, this may make him angry enough to turn away from them instead of running to them for everything. He may begin to think things through on his own, but like Draco, I'd find it hard to swallow if Dudley does develop real sensitivity. He may decide to not be like his parents, which is definitely on the road to redemption, as, IMO, the Dursleys are some of the worst parents around, but I'd be flabbergasted if Dudley ever grew nicer towards Harry, especially since he is so (understandably) terrified of Harry and all he represents. --jenny from ravenclaw Would Dudley's Redemption be a good name for a band? ************************************** From errolowl at yahoo.com Sun Apr 27 02:10:22 2003 From: errolowl at yahoo.com (errolowl) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 02:10:22 -0000 Subject: Sorry. The Sudden Movement. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56236 Derannimer wrote: ------ Okay, I know we've all talked about this a thousand times, *but*-- "Snape made a sudden movement, but as Harry looked at him, Snape's eyes flew back to Fudge." -snip- I don't care for the "Snape thought Malfoy had really repented of his DE-hood" explanation--it doesn't seem to me to account for the surreptitious nature of that reaction. Does anyone have a better idea than the old Gullible!Snape one? ------ Geez Derannimer! You don't like the concept of old Gullible Snape? Is it ideas that you're wanting?! Try a few for size. I haven't been through all the thousands of previous debates on the topic so I just might be redundant here. Lets start with Wary!Snape When Harry starts reeling off the list of deatheaters, Snape has not yet revealed his own DE status to Fudge. Was Snape afraid of being mentioned on that list, in front of a load of people? Suppose Voldmort had mentioned the missing members by name ? wouldn't Harry out Snape then? True Fudge already knew about reformedDE! Snape, but there were others in the room that almost certainly didn't. In which case, his sudden movement was a reaction to the list as a whole, and not to Lucius' name. Eventually his own frustration with Fudge pushes him to bring up the issue of his mark in public. But I don't think Snape was headed toward a disclosure to start with. This brings me back to just how many people know that Snape was a DE and then cleared by Dumbledore. Most of the Post Voldmort trials appear to be public knowledge. There was a crowd atleast 200 strong in the Pensieve scene. OTOH, if it were common knowledge, I think we would see a difference in how Snape is treated by the WW. They accept Lucius since he was "cleared" and what he did was supposedly under the imperius curse. Would they accept an acknowledged DE-by-his-own- choice Snape as easily? The fact that he turned spy will win respect, but he would most probably be talked about behind his back, and fuel speculation on whatever he did as a spy. The kids at Hogwarts would certainly have a great tool to tease him with ? the rumor that he wants the DADA position and that he knows an awful lot about the Dark arts is bandied about enough. Think the kids would pass up such a prime piece of gossip? Or maybe the sudden reaction was because Snape is working back toward getting in the DE's good books by forming an alliance with Malfoy? Snape could be setting up Malfoy for something ? something still too premature to discuss with Fudge and he needs Malfoy to be in the clear for now. So he just didn't want Fudge to start having doubts about Lucius now of all times ? notice how he looks back at Fudge almost immediately, waiting keenly for his reaction. He keeps quiet once the Minister dismissed the idea. I get the feeling that if Fudge showed any inclination of believing Harry on that point, we would have been treated to another dazzling display like the one at the end of PoA!! Another explanation, (though way off the charts) is Confused!Snape. Under this theory, Snape reacts to the mention of Malfoy's name specifically, perhaps because Malfoy *shouldn't* have been there. No, no, hear me out while I try out these suppositions ! you wanted ideas...not canon, right? Maybe Malfoy was supposed to be in a place from which it is not possible to apparate, and Snape knew it. In which case I don't blame Snape for being surprised that Lucius was actually made it to the graveyard. After all, Fake!Moody didn't make it for similar reasons among others. Oh,....or maybe Malfoy has been imprisoned by Snape somewhere, so Snape knew the one at the graveyard was an imposter! Or,... *ducks missiles* OK, OK, I surrender. I'll stop before my imagination gets away from me again! Errol From annemehr at yahoo.com Sun Apr 27 02:41:26 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 02:41:26 -0000 Subject: If Snape is a vampire, he isn't bothered by sunlight... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56237 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "silver_wendigo" > wrote: > > Hi all. I'm Joe, I've just signed on. It's neat to see that the > ideas > > I've had floating around in my head for months seem to be on other > > people's minds as well (and have been for a lot longer then I've > had > > them). However, one concept that seems strange to me is that of > > Professer Snape being a vampire. > > > > Assuming J.K. Rowling is giving vampires their traditional > >folkloric weaknesses (which I believe is likely, considering the > >references to vampiric weakness to garlic encountered in the books > >as > >well as the Lexicon), vampires are destroyed in sunlight. > > As pipsqueak said, not all folklore has vampires turning to ash in > the sun. The Vlad Dracula of Bram Stoker could walk around in the > day, albeit a bit more sluggishly than he did at night. > > And besides, we've already got a half-giant in Hagrid and a werewolf > tamed by potions in Lupin and whatever the hell Flitwick is. > > Darrin > -- Hagrid and the Half-Giants. Very good name for a band, but good > luck getting it trademarked. Annemehr: Let's throw this tidbit into the mix, from PoA ch. 10, the first time Harry uses the Marauder's Map to get into Hogsmeade, and Honeyduke's: "Harry squeezed himself through a crowd of sixth years and saw a sign hanging in the farthest corner of the shop (UNUSUAL TASTES). Ron and Hermione were standing underneath it, examining a tray of blood-flavored lollipops. Harry sneaked up behind them. "'Ugh, no, Harry won't want one of those, they're for vampires, I expect,' Hermione was saying." Perhaps Hermione is mistaken, but after all, this *is* Hermione -- who memorizes all her schoolbooks and parts of the library as well. If she is right, it would imply that vampires in JKR's world are welcome to shop at Honeyduke's. So, maybe their reputation in the muggle world is a bit exaggerated. Maybe they don't normally bite humans or drink human blood. There are enough side references to vampires along the way that I'm sure quite a few of us expect to see one in the story sooner or later! Annemehr who does not think Snape is one, either From patricia at obscure.org Sun Apr 27 02:50:51 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 22:50:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Redeemed!Dudley? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56238 On Sun, 27 Apr 2003, jenny_ravenclaw wrote: > I find it hard to believe that Dudley feels unsafe in any way in his > own home. Someone else mentioned that Dudley's parents have "lost" > control over their son, but I feel that they never had control over > Dudley to begin with. Vernon and Petunia's agenda with Dudley is to > give him what he wants. Dudley is the one who runs that household - > Petunia even makes the rest of the family go on a diet along with > Dudley, including Harry who is already noticeably thin. Aside from > the diet, Dudley is in complete control: all the presents he wants, > all the food he wants, all the trips he wants, all the tantrums he > wants and all the coddling he wants. If Dudley does have any worries > they would have to be about Harry - after all, it is because of Harry > he lost one of his rooms and it is because of Harry he grew a pig's > tail and it is because of Harry that his tongue nearly suffocated him. > Dudley may worry about Harry assuming more authority in the Dursley > home, not Vernon turning on his own son. I, on the other hand, find it very easy to believe that Dudley does not feel safe within his family, though it may not be physical abuse in particular that he fears. Kids need (reasonable) limits set by the authority figures in their lives in order to feel safe. It's ingrained, part of our nature. The subconscious reasoning is something like, 'I know I'm safe exploring my world and pushing its boundaries because if I get too near the *really* dangerous stuff, someone will pull me back.' But Dudley has never had any limits or controls imposed by his parents. So he tries to gain that sense of security by being in complete control of his world. The problem is, he never can be in *complete* control. Life just doesn't work that way. Since he can't trust the adults in his life to keep him safe, and he can't rely on himself to keep him safe, I doubt Dudley is capable of really feeling at ease and comfortable in his life. Mind you, I don't think Dudley is conscious of any of this. He's not a very self-aware kind of boy. But Dudley shows many, many signs of being deeply unhappy and insecure. He's far, far from the picture of confidence and self-assuredness I would expect to see in a child who feels safe and well-loved at home. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From hp at plum.cream.org Sun Apr 27 03:00:12 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 04:00:12 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dean Thomas In-Reply-To: <3EAAF6C7.8517.28BA575@localhost> References: <002101c30b57$615dbfa0$d04d6551@f3b7j4> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030427025612.00975580@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 56239 At 02:14 27/04/03 , Rizzo wrote: > > >Okay, I think I'm getting confused here. Dean supports the West Ham >soccer/football team, yeah -- I remember Ron poking at Dean's posters to >try to get the images to move, like 'normal' photographs. But isn't it >Collin Creevy's father who's the milkman? We seem to have had a lot of new members since this last cropped up, so it's time for me to climb up onto my soapbox and talk about my favourite topic (regular readers need not bother reading on)... :-) Correct. The fact that Dean is black, is a bit of information we UK/Canadian readers have never yet had in canon, although it was part of his description when he was sorted in the US edition of PS/SS. We know nothing about his background, other than that "like Harry, he had grown up with Muggles". We don't find even find out that much until the second half of CoS. The only other things we know about him are that he's a keen West Ham supporter, he has artistic talent (in each book, we are reminded in one circumstance each that he is good with a brush or quill), and he's Seamus Finnegan's best mate (with whom he attends the QWC in GoF). Note that as of the end of GoF, Dean is the only one of Harry's dorm-mates whose parentage (wizard, half/half, Muggle) hasn't been clearly identified; not only that, we've even met at least one of each of their parents as well - the Weasleys on several occasions, Seamus's witch mum was at the QWC, Neville's parents are in St. Mungo's, but we know nothing *at all* of Dean's presumed natural or presumed adoptive parents. Dean's upbringing is compared not to Hermione, but to Harry. As far as I'm concerned, this makes him wizard-born, but given up for Muggle adoption or to a "children's home" (the modern euphemism for "orphanage"). Assuming West Ham is his *local* team (the team isn't among the more glamorous and has few supporters outside its local area - despite the name, West Ham is in *East* London), it should be noted that that area is infamously the poorest in the UK, and there are many kids on the streets or otherwise without parents. West Ham as a team are renowned for being involved in local community projects (it's really the only thing the area has to be proud of) and so it's perfectly feasible that this (and his drawing) kept him going until he got his Hogwarts letter. This raises several questions: Is/was he as unaware of his heritage as Harry? What *is* that heritage? His artistic skills are clearly important. In what circumstances will they come to be an important plot element as they inevitably must? (One of my gripes with the first movie is that it is Dean who recognises the Remembrall for what it is. Is this major foreshadowing - he *is* aware of his magical heritage? - or is it a screw-up - having been brought up by Muggles, he shouldn't know anything about the wizarding world?) Anyway, based on the above, I have decided that because of JKR's love of parallelism, he must be the son of *evil* folks; given her penchant for foreshadowing, we must have been introduced to them at some stage already, and thus I propose that Dean's birth surname is - Lestrange. It makes *so* much sense! Think of the wonders of having the son of the people who tortured Neville's parents in his class! Harry, sent out to his Muggle family as a baby to protect him from his fame; Dean, sent out either to Muggle relatives or a Muggle orphanage to protect him from his parents' *infamy*! Oh, and another thought (which I haven't presented before): perhaps what the Lestranges wanted from the Longbottoms and for which they tortured them was the whereabouts not of Harry, not of Voldemort, but of their own son, whom the Longbottoms had been ordered to take into the Muggle world to save the baby from reprisals? As I said above, the question remains as to whether or Dean knows about his parents' past and his heritage. If he does, has he renounced it? If he doesn't, how will he react when he inevitably finds out? And assuming he's the Lestranges' son, does Neville know? If not, how will *Neville* react when he finds out? And one further thought: if he lives in a Muggle orphanage, perhaps it was the same Muggle orphanage a certain other Hogwarts pupil attended, 50 years ago? Perhaps he will find something that pupil hid in that orphanage? The possibilities are endless... -- GulPlum AKA Richard, off to bed From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Sun Apr 27 03:28:25 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 03:28:25 -0000 Subject: Life debts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56240 Maria (me) said: >I believe that in order for a life debt to be created, the "saver" >has to overcome a personal, emotional barrier that might stop him >from saving the other person. It's created when "What is right" is >chosen over "What is easy," or, in other words, what you'd actually >like to do. So, Pettigrew would indeed have a life debt to Harry, >because Harry couldn't care less if Pettigrew died. >James hated (I assume) Snape, but saved him anyway. => life debt. Mme Malkin replied: It's my feeling that a couple of conditions must be satisfied for a life debt to exist. First, the "debtor's" life is must be forfeit to the "saver" already. In other words the "saver" is in some way entitled to or justified in taking the person's life. Secondly, the "debtor" comes under the power of the one he has wronged and is spared. Because Pettigrew was responsible in the deaths of Harry's parents, Harry would have been justified in killing him. The life debt wasn't incurred, however, until Harry was actually in a position to take his life. Now Pettigrew "owes" his life because Harry was entitled to take it, and was in a position to do so, but let him keep it. I guess I'm saying I agree with Maria except in the degree. It's more than overcoming a "personal, emotional barrier," (what I take to be an inclination or preference), it's setting aside an entitlement. By these critera, Snape must already have done something to deserve death at James' hands in order to incur a life debt when James saved him. Hmmm, I wonder what that was? Me: Entitlement? Well... I don't really think so. First of all, this: >By these critera, Snape must already have done something to deserve >death at James' hands in order to incur a life debt when James saved >him. Hmmm, I wonder what that was? See, it's kind of hard for me to imagine that Remus and Sirius wouldn't mention Snape's hypothetical evil deed when they were reminiscing about the Prank. Then, Snape was trying, as I read it, to repay his life-debt to James by saving Harry from falling off his broom in PS. Assuming that the same conditions (entitlement to the savee's life) have to exist to repay the life-debt, the theory doesn't really work - how is Snape entitled to take Harry's life? And also, I don't believe that a person can ever be entitled to take another person's life, no matter what the circumstances. I don't like this kind of revenge. I can *understand* it, if, for example, Harry kills Pettigrew, but I can't see it as justified. I was cursing at Harry when he was about to kill Sirius, and again when Remus and Sirius were about to murder Peter. Ick. I don't want Harry to murder Voldemort either. Maria From bard7696 at aol.com Sun Apr 27 03:33:54 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 03:33:54 -0000 Subject: More on Dursleys Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56241 Something that just hit me as I was re-reading the beginning of PS/SS to doublecheck another tidbit. Why on earth did the Durseleys take Harry in? Why not just ship him off to an orphanage, or call the proper authorities, pretend you have no clue who the kid is, and send him into the system. Dumbledore left a letter in Harry's blankets. What was in that letter? My guess? Money and maybe an implied threat. Any other thoughts? Surely it wasn't out of family loyalty. This also brings up a second point. It seems logical that Mrs. Figg has been Dumbledore's agent-in-charge on Privet Drive and was making regular reports. Why did Dumbledore allow the abuse, emotional and physical, of Harry to continue? And I dispute a recent notion that Vernon did not abuse Harry. I believe he did, based on hints we get about "threatening to flay Harry within an inch of his life" and Petunia swinging at him with a frying pan in CoS after he did pretend magic on Dudley. And the Dursleys are just too earthy a people not to raise their hands to Harry. As has been pointed out, it's damned lucky Harry didn't grow up to be a serial killer, being locked in a cupboard for 10 years and made to be a slave. Dumbledore, to my way of thinking, took an awful chance, letting that continue. I for one hope the 17-year-old Harry we see in Book 7 calls Dumbledore on that one and demands to know why it was necessary. And lastly, I don't believe for a second that the Dursleys have done Dudley any favors. This diet is indeed a reaction to a letter from school, but the real concern, to my read, is not Dudley's health, but the fact that the school would have to order a special uniform. It would mortify Petunia to think that the school had to take such a step and that common people such as the school tailor and ordering clerk would be - gasp - talking about her. Darrin -- Wonder how many times I can re-read these 4 books (and the school books) before OoP comes out? From bard7696 at aol.com Sun Apr 27 03:45:32 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 03:45:32 -0000 Subject: Life debts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56242 Maria: > > And also, I don't believe that a person can ever be entitled to take > another person's life, no matter what the circumstances. I don't like > this kind of revenge. I can *understand* it, if, for example, Harry > kills Pettigrew, but I can't see it as justified. I was cursing at > Harry when he was about to kill Sirius, and again when Remus and > Sirius were about to murder Peter. Ick. I don't want Harry to murder > Voldemort either. Me: Lost in all this is that I'm not sure Snape owes a magically-binding debt to James, the same way Pettigrew now does to Harry. It is entirely possible that Snape, who knew more curses than anyone else, could have escaped from Lupin. It is also possible that James snatching the back of Snape's robes and saying, "Look, man, you can't go there" isn't enough to kick in the magic debt. Publicly, Snape refuses to acknowledge anything James did. He dismisses it in front of Harry, which contradicts what Dumbledore says about Snape feeling like he needed to save Harry to be at peace with his hatred of James. Couple of ideas how Snape could be thinking: 1) Snape just refuses to give Harry the satisfaction of thanking his father. He'll never admit the debt to Harry. 2) Snape isn't admitting it to himself. When he tells Harry that he doesn't owe James squat, he means it. He might be telling himself that he just did what any teacher should do when he saved Harry at the Quidditch match. Dumbledore, who knows what goes on in that greasy head, has made a good guess as to the real reason. Frankly, I think Snape is more interesting if there isn't some magical life-debt going on here and this is driven by some twisted logical code of honor. As the books progress and we get more theories, I find I want motivations of the major characters to be less driven by magic and more driven by their characters. Darrin -- Murder Ick would be a great name for a band. Send your royalties to Maria. From Neotoma73 at aol.com Sun Apr 27 04:05:12 2003 From: Neotoma73 at aol.com (Neotoma73 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 00:05:12 EDT Subject: Vampire Snape/Knowing Lucius was a DE/Remus as Spy (WAS: Thoughts and questi Message-ID: <125.2114e7c3.2bdcb0f8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56243 In a message dated 4/26/03 6:34:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, : "darrin_burnett" writes: > Melpomene wrote: > > > So, Remus, being Remus simply decided to push Snape's buttons and > > assign a vampire essay. Remus IS a werewolf--there would be little > > point to him being upset by the werewolf essay, but as Severus is NOT > > (IMO) a vampire--*that* assignment would annoy they h*ll out of him. > > Especially since he'd be expected to sub again in 28 days and was > > bound to get a question or two.... > > > > Remus thought that Snape assigned the werewolf essay to get students > to figure out that Remus was a werewolf, start a panic, and get Remus > fired. That's not an inaccurate guess, considering that Snape DID > manipulate events to get Lupin fired by "accidentally" letting it > slip that Lupin is a werewolf. > > Yeah, no reason AT ALL for Lupin to get upset about that... > > Reading PoA, I can't decide if Remus is sincerely trying to make nice with Snape, or playing an elegant mind-game with him by 'nice-ing' him to death. Considering that Snape rebuffs every overture that Remus makes -- for example, calling him by his given name (Snape responds with 'Lupin' each time) -- and actively if sneakily trying to inform the students that he is a werewolf with the fact that Remus was a Marauder and thus part of an old rivalry with Snape, you have to wonder what the heck is going on. Especially given the occasional glimpse we get of the adult interactions that Harry doesn't usually understand. AnneL [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From a_rude_mechanical at yahoo.com Sun Apr 27 04:12:54 2003 From: a_rude_mechanical at yahoo.com (a_rude_mechanical) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 04:12:54 -0000 Subject: More on Dursleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56244 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > Something that just hit me as I was re-reading the beginning of PS/SS > to doublecheck another tidbit. > > Why on earth did the Durseleys take Harry in? Why not just ship him > off to an orphanage, or call the proper authorities, pretend you have > no clue who the kid is, and send him into the system. and later... > > Why did Dumbledore allow the abuse, emotional and physical, of Harry > to continue? > and later... > And the Dursleys are just too earthy a people not to raise their > hands to Harry. > > As has been pointed out, it's damned lucky Harry didn't grow up to be > a serial killer, being locked in a cupboard for 10 years and made to > be a slave. Dumbledore, to my way of thinking, took an awful chance, > letting that continue. and later.. > > And lastly, I don't believe for a second that the Dursleys have done > Dudley any favors. > Darrin Whoa! I like to think of Rowling's description of Harry's life with the Dursleys as being as fantastical as his life at Hogwarts, but without the magic. Clearly, penning a child into a cupboard, feeding him only bread and cheese, and throwing frying pans at him are all horrible forms of child abuse, but these are still children's books. My point, and I do have one, is that I don't think that Harry's life is meant to be taken seriously in any form--his mistreatment (and arguably that of Dudley's) at the hands of Vernon and Petunia are exaggerated to be funny--this is, after all, fantasy!! =) Elisabeth > From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Sun Apr 27 02:11:02 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (hagrid) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 04:11:02 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sorry. The Sudden Movement. References: Message-ID: <004a01c30c62$41d56be0$4a5b253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 56245 Derannimer wrote: > "Snape made a sudden movement, but as Harry looked at him, Snape's > eyes flew back to Fudge." > > The thing that really strikes me about that line is the last clause; > it sounds very much as though, whatever Snape is reacting to, he > doesn't want Harry to notice that he is so reacting. (And Harry > certainly never does notice it like we have.) Which makes me wonder > if there's *something* between him and Lucius Malfoy that he wants > hidden. That's one reason why I don't care for the "Snape thought > Malfoy had really repented of his DE-hood" explanation--it doesn't > seem to me to account for the surreptitious nature of that reaction. > > Does anyone have a better idea than the old Gullible!Snape one? Me: Well, I have a theory, we know DD had a "number of spies", Snape was one of them, but maybe there were some others among the DE who returned to LV that night. Maybe Snape reacted to the name of one of them, he must know them, he must know who the other spies were because they probably worked together. Just a thought, though. CHeers, Izaskun Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Sun Apr 27 02:14:16 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (hagrid) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 04:14:16 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: If Snape is a vampire, he isn't bothered by sunlight... References: Message-ID: <005301c30c62$bb0b8ad0$4a5b253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 56246 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "silver_wendigo" wrote: > Hi all. I'm Joe, I've just signed on. It's neat to see that the ideas > I've had floating around in my head for months seem to be on other > people's minds as well (and have been for a lot longer then I've had > them). However, one concept that seems strange to me is that of > Professer Snape being a vampire. > > Assuming J.K. Rowling is giving vampires their traditional folkloric weaknesses (which I believe is likely, considering the references to vampiric weakness to garlic encountered in the books as well as the Lexicon), vampires are destroyed in sunlight. Darrin wrote: As pipsqueak said, not all folklore has vampires turning to ash in the sun. The Vlad Dracula of Bram Stoker could walk around in the day, albeit a bit more sluggishly than he did at night. And besides, we've already got a half-giant in Hagrid and a werewolf tamed by potions in Lupin and whatever the hell Flitwick is. Why not a half-vampire? I know that under traditional lore, vampires can't mate (notwithstanding Blade) but who cares? Or... Snape has taken similar potions as Lupin to cure himself. I'm not saying I LIKE the idea, but it is possible. Darrin Now me: i don't think he's a vampire, a half-vampire or anything near it. He's not affected by sun, he's not afected by garlic, and he eats and drink like a normal person. Doesn't look like a vampire to me. I think JK was just trying to describe him, and the bat-alike description is a very powerful image, that's all. But again, maybe I'm wrong. CHeers, Izaskun Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Sun Apr 27 02:19:46 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (hagrid) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 04:19:46 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Professors & their Pets References: <20030426181650.12949.qmail@web14702.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005d01c30c63$79ad6c10$4a5b253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 56247 Aaron wrote: Hi ... new to the list and had a question. I've been trying to go through the books to find references to pets owned by some of the Professors. Fawkes is easy, but I was particularly interested in finding out if Snape or McGonagall had a pet, or did they just have mail owls. If anyone who has better referencing and memory skills than I can tell me what you know, I'd much appreciate it. Feel free to private email or send to the group. Thank you!%r%r Me: Don't recall any references in canon to teacher's pets, but we haven't seen the teacher's private rooms, so maybe there are more pets around. If they had pets they wouldn't be in the classrooms, they would be in their private rooms so we just don't know, we'll have to guess. What kind of pet do you thing suits Snape? A raven? A black cat? ... Cheers, Izaskun __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silver_wendigo at yahoo.com Sun Apr 27 03:08:18 2003 From: silver_wendigo at yahoo.com (silver_wendigo) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 03:08:18 -0000 Subject: If Snape is a vampire - Snape as a bat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56248 Pip!Squeak (aka Pip): > Depends which folkloric region you're talking about. Vampires being > destroyed by sunlight is an invention of Hollywood. Mostly they > don't like it, and it reduces their powers considerably. Mostly >they wander around in the night. But Dracula wandered around London ? in daylight. > Very few bats are vampires. Most are harmless creatures who've got > landed with a rather sinister reputation. Some bats are dangerous > and deserve their reputation. > > Which one is Snape? Pip, Ahhh! Suckered by Hollywood *hangs head in shame* I'm generally pretty up to date on folklore and mythology, I should have known better...anywho...Regarding bats, as far as I've heard, vampire bats aren't really dangerous (aside from being disease carriers), but are more like big mammalian mosquitos. I believe Snape is far more dangerous then that, it's more a matter of who he decides to target with his dangerous abilities...I hope that makes some degree of sense, but I'm probably rambling again :-) Joe (Wendigo) From ivanova at idcnet.com Sun Apr 27 03:17:49 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 22:17:49 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: If Snape is a vampire, he isn't bothered by sunlight... References: Message-ID: <000c01c30c6b$959af3e0$0eccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 56249 Annemehr: Let's throw this tidbit into the mix, from PoA ch. 10, the first time Harry uses the Marauder's Map to get into Hogsmeade, and Honeyduke's: "Harry squeezed himself through a crowd of sixth years and saw a sign hanging in the farthest corner of the shop (UNUSUAL TASTES). Ron and Hermione were standing underneath it, examining a tray of blood-flavored lollipops. Harry sneaked up behind them. "'Ugh, no, Harry won't want one of those, they're for vampires, I expect,' Hermione was saying." Perhaps Hermione is mistaken, but after all, this *is* Hermione -- who memorizes all her schoolbooks and parts of the library as well. If she is right, it would imply that vampires in JKR's world are welcome to shop at Honeyduke's. So, maybe their reputation in the muggle world is a bit exaggerated. Maybe they don't normally bite humans or drink human blood. Me: Ok, so let's give the vampire theorists the benefit of the doubt and say that vampires have some ability to walk around in the day, even eat lollipops, albeit blood-flavored. But we have seen Snape eat. Granted, the actual food on his plate and liquid in his cup is not explicitly described. But Harry, Ron, and Hermione have eaten at the same table as Snape (Christmas in PoA). I think they would have noticed if he had been eating completely different food from the rest of the table. And before someone suggests that his food is flavored differently, IIRC, there are dishes on the table to be passed at a normal meal. Again, you think someone would have noticed if Snape's food was already on his plate and he never took anything from the dishes being passed around. I mean, Harry noticed in GoF immediately that Moody drank only from his hip flask and not anything from the table. And this was someone not even sitting at his table. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova/ From ivanova at idcnet.com Sun Apr 27 03:48:36 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 22:48:36 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Redeemed!Dudley? References: Message-ID: <002401c30c6f$e28a3f40$0eccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 56250 From: herm - own - ninny Now, as for Wizard!Dudley, I think this would also work well with the "someone developing magical powers later in life" hint that JKR dropped. I had always thought that someone would be Filch, but I see no reason why Dudley can't be a late blooming wizard. However, if you're suggesting that he -already- has magic powers, hence the Dursley's being afraid of him, then I would disagree. If that were the case, then why didn't he get a letter from Hogwarts? Also, Dudley himself seems frightened of magic. In CoS, when Harry does a faux spell on him out in the garden, he runs away terrfied. Me: The thought had crossed my mind, but it doesn't necessarily have to be. After all, Petunia did grow up with Lily. Maybe she remembers Lily as a little kid and what she could do when provoked, that making Lily mad brought about unexpected results. Although Petunia herself does not have these abilities, maybe she is afraid that Dudley might exhibit them, so she does what she can to pacify him. Dudley, of course, would not know about this. As for my thoughts about maybe he HAD shown some ability, I was thinking it would've happened as an infant, somewhere in the first couple years of life. Dudley would have no memory of this either, and therefore could be taught by his parents to be afraid of magic so he would never seek it out in himself. herm - own - ninny: I've never gotton the impression that Petunia and Vernon are afraid of Dudley, just afraid of upsetting him. Not because he can do any significant harm, but because they love him to death and don't want to bring on a temper tantrum of screaming and crying. They cannot deal with these temper tantrums because they have lost their position of authority over Dudley, so they try their best to avoid them. Also, based on the way they treat Harry and refer to Lily and James as "freaks," I would think they'd be less enthusiastic about their son had he displayed any inclination towards magic. Me: I can see this, too. I liked a post I read earlier today about how Dudley is really an unhappy boy who might be afraid of things because his parents have never set limits for him. I guess this theory of Dudley came to me because I was thinking about JKR's comment about a few discovering magic late in life, coupled with watching the SS movie and the way Petunia in particular treats and reacts to Dudley. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova/ From catlady at wicca.net Sun Apr 27 04:22:48 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 04:22:48 -0000 Subject: Hgwrts robes/Draco Cedric/Hgwrts letters/SnapeGoF/Ron'sbroken wand/lifedebts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56251 Katy Cartee wrote: << I saw the first movie before i read any of the books, so i had no chance to fix another image into my mind. But what's wrong with how they are depicted in the movie? They look good to me. >> The student uniform robes in the books are medieval-ish things, long black dresses, kind of like monks' robes, not long jackets worn over twentieth century shirts and trousers. Evidence from the books includes the packing list in book 1, which mentions: "1. Three sets of plain work robes (black) 2. One plain pointed hat (black) for day wear 3. One pair of protective gloves (dragon hide or similar) 4. One winter cloak (black, silver fastenings) Please note that all pupils' clothes should carry name tags" but no mention of grey trousers/skirt, grey pullover, white button shirts... Other evidence includes JKR's own drawing of the Weasley kids at King's Cross, with Percy in his uniform robe and prefect badge: go to http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/lst click on the folder labelled "Harry Potter and Me" click on the picture labelled "weasleys" herm-own-ninny wrote: << When Cedric is murdered Draco is able to be cocky about the whole affair because he didn't really know Cedric, did he? >> "You've picked the losing side, Potter! I warned you! I told you you ought to choose your company more carefully, remember? When we met on the train, first day at Hogwarts? I told you not to hang around with riff-raff like this!" He jerked his head at Ron and Hermione. "Too late now, Potter! They'll be the first to go, now the Dark Lord's back! Mudbloods and Muggle-lovers first! Well -- second -- Diggory was the f--" I have a UNIQUE OPINION of Draco's comment. I don't think he was mocking Cedric's death at all. I think he was, in his monumentally inappropriate way, *respecting* Cedric's death, by acknowledging that it had happened and clearing Cedric of any taint of having been a Mudblood or Muggle-lover (altho', if I'm correct that Cho Chang is Muggle-born, then he WAS a Muggle-lover). I wouldn't put it past canon!Draco to add being responsible for the death of a pureblood wizard from an old, albeit non-aristocratic, family to his list of grievances against Potter. And surely it is obvious that a MAJOR one of those grievances is the Potter rejected his offer of friendship back on September 1st of the first book. I think that rant of Draco's is extremely stupid. Stupid to brag of his happiness about the Dark Lord's return after his father had *warned* him (in CoS "it is not - prudent - to appear less than fond of Harry Potter") to pretend to be on the popular side. Stupid to interrupt the flow of his own rant by correcting himself about a minor factual detail like who died first. Clearly, canon!Draco is no fanon!Draco. Jo Serenadust wrote: << As I mentioned in my earlier post, Harry gets his first Hogwarts letter about one week before his eleventh birthday. If you assume (as I sort of did) that everyone gets their letters shortly before they turn eleven, >> Barb Psychic Serpent replie: << Actually, I find it hard to believe that the students receive the letters at a time that relates to their birthdays, rather than when they are starting school. (snip) It makes far more sense for the letters to come about five weeks before the beginning of the term, as Harry's did. >> I'm going on record as agreeing with Barb. My immediate assumption on first reading of PS/SS, when we found out what the letters were, was that they were coming for all the other students at the same time as they started coming for Harry. Rane wrote: << What bothers me most about him is that, when Harry had found Crouch in the Forbidden Forest in GoF and was running to Dumbledore, Snape wouldn't let Harry into DD's office. Of course, he didn't know what was going on, but he could see Harry was panicking. Now, I don't know about you guys, but even if I would hate sb, even really badly - if I saw them panicking, I would still listen. Panic is just such a *vulnerable* state - I would still think sth bad must be going on for the other person to look like that. And it's not like you can *fake* panic, is it? >> I suppose actors must be able to fake panic, as it does occur in movies. That event is what used to trouble me most about Snape. Your concern seems to be with Snape's cruelty; mine was whether he really was on Dumbledore's side. How could he possibly interfere with Harry's effort to tell Dumbledore something important after he's had four books to learn that Harry is generally right when he says that something is important enough to need Dumbledore? How could he let his enjoyment of annoying Harry interfere with Dumbledore receiving important information? Then someone on the list, but unfortunately I don't remember who, pointed out to me that actually Snape was MAKING SURE that Harry found Dumbledore ... Harry would have turned around and gone to the staff room if Snape hadn't stopped him, kept him in the hallway to which Dumbledore was already descending... << But nothing at Hogwarts had ever moved just because he shouted at it; he knew it was no good. He looked up and down the dark corridor. Perhaps Dumbledore was in the staff room? He started running as fast as he could towards the staircase -- "POTTER!" Harry skidded to a halt and looked around. Snape had just emerged from the hidden staircase behind the stone gargoyle. The wall was sliding shut behind him even as he beckoned Harry back towards him. "What are you doing here, Potter?" "I need to see Professor Dumbledore!" said Harry, running back up the corridor and skidding to a standstill in front of Snape instead. >> Carolyn dragonquill wrote: << with a broken wand? Professors McGonagal and Snape both comment on it. >> It seems to me that only in the movie did Professor McGonagall and Professor Snape comment on Ron's broken wand. I think the McGonagall scene in the book (it's hard to tell, as in the book they have never yet taken their pets to class to turn them into goblets) is: << Ron was having far worse problems. He had patched up his wand with some borrowed Spellotape, but it seemed to be damaged beyond repair. It kept crackling and sparking at odd moments, and every time Ron tried to transfigure his beetle it engulfed him in thick gray smoke that smelled of rotten eggs. Unable to see what he was doing, Ron accidentally squashed his beetle with his elbow and had to ask for a new one. Professor McGonagall wasn't pleased. >> In the book, Lockhart didn't try to pair up Ron with anyone, so Snape had no call to say, no, Ron's broken wand is too dangerous. Instead, Lockhart accidentally gave Snape an opportunity to heckle poor Neville as a side bonus of Snape's scheme: << "Let's have a volunteer pair - Longbottom and Finch-Fletchley, how about you -" "A bad idea, Professor Lockhart," said Snape, gliding over like a large and malevolent bat. "Longbottom causes devastation with the simplest spells. We'll be sending what's left of Finch-Fletchley up to the hospital wing in a matchbox." Neville's round, pink face went pinker. "How about Malfoy and Potter?" said Snape with a twisted smile. >> Faith wrote: << Does this mean that Ginny would owe Harry a life debt for saving her life in CoS? >> In my opinion, yes. Harry voluntarily, and without anyone having requested him to volunteer, went out of his way to put his own life in danger to save Ginny's life. << And Ron and Harry would owe Hermione a life debt for saving their lives in PS/SS, when she saved them from the Devils Snare? >> In my opinion, no, because all three of them were taking turns saving each other's lives in there. From catlady at wicca.net Sun Apr 27 04:31:42 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 04:31:42 -0000 Subject: Against all odds, Harry isn't a mass murderer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56252 Fandulin wrote: << Have anyone else ever marvelled at how well adjusted and socially competent Harry turned out, having grown up with the Dursleys? >> Oh, yes, very much so. Enough so that I've invented a theory to explain it. I think Lily was able, with her magic, to put an image of herself in her baby's mind, that would be like an 'imaginary mum' (by analogy with 'imaginary friend') who would cuddle Harry and tell him that he's a good kid who doesn't deserve Dursley abuse and tell him about how decent people behave, thus being that one caring adult ("example of goodness" otherwise lacking in his real life) said to be necessary to even a 'resilient' child's survival of serious abuse... I kind of think Lily used her last magic to put this image in his \head intentionally, instead of using her last magic in one last attempt to escape Voldemort. That is the heroic self-sacrifce that canon credits her, accepting her own death because it was more important to her to give this protection (from abusive Dursleys) of her love. I don't know why she would do that if she really believed that he would be dead seconds after she was, so I am left sympathetic to the theories that Harry survived AK because of some magic that had been done on him (presumably by Lily) or that he had been born with. When Harry resisted the Imperius Curse, the Curse's Moody-voice in his head told him to jump up on the desk, and "another voice had awoken in the back of his brain. Stupid to do, really, said the voice." I believe that that other voice is what's left of the image-Lily after all these years; she doesn't appear often, she appears as Harry's voice instead of her own, but she still is caring for Harry -- and still has free will. In addition, so far we've always seen Harry wondering and trying to find out about his father, and not about his mother. Some say that's a plot device because JKR is saving some big surprise about Lily, and some say it's normal because Harry is 11 to 14 so far, puberty and adolescence, and much more concerned about a male image to identify with. But *I* say that he doesn't search so much for Lily because, unknown to himself, he already has her with him. << He isn't allowed any kind of entertainment. >> I rejoice in the excuse to repeat my theory that Harry has learned a LOT from television. We saw in PoA that Uncle Vernon watches the morning news; I assert that Uncle Vernon also watches the evening news and professional sports, Aunt Petunia watches home-making shows, gossip shows (especially about the royals?), tear-jerker movies, and the popular game shows, and Dudley watches *everything* in search of sex and violence. And Harry sits in the back of the living room, because that way he is more convenient accessible to run fetch more snacks for Dudley or another beer for Vernon than if he were in his closet. Just as Harry has learned to be suspicious of capital punishment (e.g. of Pettigrew) because Uncle Vernon praises it, and he knows Uncle Vernon praises it because we all saw him do so when the Sirius Black escape was on the morning TV news, so also Harry has learned to be suspicious of [other things] because he has seen Uncle Vernon approving of them on TV. From catlady at wicca.net Sun Apr 27 04:50:30 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 04:50:30 -0000 Subject: Muggles and Potions, and Magical Devices, and Magical Plants ... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56253 AnneL Neotoma wrote: << There's got to be some magic involved, probably to catalyze the transformation into a working potion. As an example, the asphodel and wormwood infusion Snape asks Harry about in the very first class w ould be a very toxic mess unless magic was involved to change it into something useful instead of posionous. "Wand waving" might not be needed in potions-brewing, but some magical power -- just to make those ingridients drinkable, let alone effective -- would be necessary. This possibly might be another reason Wolfsbane in hard to brew. Not only is it complex, but the raw power needed to make it effective instead of lethal (if it contains real wolfsbane, for one!) might be unusually high. >> IIRC, the asphodel and wormwood infusion is called "Draught of the Living Death" and produces a sleep so deep it can be mistaken for death. IIRC, Muggle morphine works the same way as a poison and as an anesthestic, so could asphodel and wormwood poison in a dose JUST BARELY too low to kill instead make the person unconscious until revived in some special way, oxygen or adrenaline or heart massage? However, I absolutely do believe that magic is required in order to brew potions, just as you said. I don't know whether it is something magical that the person has to DO, as Gina Rosich suggested, or simply the innate magic of the person, as Lexicon Steve suggested. Corinth wrote: << On the same note, I beleive a Muggle could use invisibility cloaks and other magical devices which themselves possess magical ability. >> Like you, I believe that a Muggle can use invisibility cloaks and other magical devices in which the magic is part of the device. FB told us that invisibility cloaks are made of the cloth spun from the fur of a magical animal which is invisible (and therefore difficult to hunt), which casts doubt on whether even wizards can make invisibility by their own magic. I believe that a Muggle cannot use magical devices which depend on the user's magic to work. That means WANDS, even tho' wands contain magic of their own which amplifies (or something) the user's magic. I think it might include flying broomsticks. Lexicon Steve also wrote: << Are magical plants magical to Muggles? I'd say no, they aren't. If a Muggle ate Gillyweed, they would not experience a magical effect (although it would undoubtedly do something to them). They don't have the magical aura that activates the magical properties of the plant. On the other hand, If a Wizard strong in Herbology ate Gillyweed, they might actually have an enhanced effect from it. >> I don't think so. I think the magical effect of a magical plant comes from the plant, not the wizard. So the wizard's Herbology skill would help him/her find Gillyweed growing wild, help himer grow Gillyweed, help himer dry harvested Gillyweed for storage, but would not increase Gillyweed's effect on him/her. And Gillyweed WOULD work on Muggles. The reason we don't have Muggles growing gills all over the place is that Gillyweed makes itself invisible and undetectible to non-magic people and animals. There is absolutely no canon on the subject, so we'll just have to disagree. From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Sat Apr 26 11:22:09 2003 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Ivan=20Vablatsky?=) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 12:22:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP and the Alchemical Wedding Message-ID: <20030426112209.84368.qmail@web21501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56254 In my previous emails I have outlined my discovery that HP is a roadmap for entering into an alternative universe. This entails liberation from all limitations of time and space and from suffering and death. Periodically a window opens between the two universes and we are allowed a glimpse of the Way to the Other Universe. Obviously there is only one roadmap but every time it?s given to humanity it comes in a language and form that is suited to the time, to the zeitgeist, to the human temperament. The language is always in the form of universal symbols that resonate in the human subconscious. My theory is that in 1616 another window opened. In that year a work was printed in Strasbourg called "Chymische Hochzeit Christiani Rosencreutz". This work was translated into English by E. Foxcroft and published in 1690. Its English title is "The Hermetick Romance: or the Chymical Wedding". Basically it?s a story of a chap named Christian Rosencreutz who spends seven days in an old castle, and attends an alchemical process in which six kings and queens are killed and their bodies used in the rebirth of a young king and queen of indescribable beauty. Having read and studied the (Al)chemical Wedding for many years, I was immediately struck by the similarities between this work and HP, yet I think it?s unlikely that Dr Rowling has read the former. When the story begins CRC lives in a hut at the bottom of a hill. Harry lives in a cupboard at the bottom of the stairs. A storm begins to rage and there is a loud knocking at the door, just as happened to Harry in the hut on the rock. In both cases a messenger enters, giving the hero a letter of invitation; Harry for seven years at Hogwarts, CRC for seven days in a castle. CRC is confronted by 4 paths on the way. He has to choose the "right" one. Harry is placed in one of four houses by his "choice". Harry is sorted by the hat of one of the founders of the castle; CRC is sorted by a weighing process (of his virtues). CRC goes to a tower called the Tower of Olympus. To get there he has to cross a lake with mermaids in it, just like Harry did in his first year. In the tower lives a very ancient man who is very wise and in fact leads the alchemical process. Sound familiar? This tower has seven storeys, with a secret eighth one hidden under the roof. CRC has to help in an alchemical process. In an email a few days ago I explained my theory that Harry goes through a process of liberation. In the first book he liberates himself from the physical plane, in the second book he achieves etheric liberation, in the third one astral (emotional) liberation and in the fourth book mental (or perhaps more precisely volitional) liberation. CRC does exactly the same things. Quite a few mystery animals are mentioned in the Alchemical Wedding: the phoenix, the unicorn and the griffin. There are possibly many other things I haven?t noticed yet. However it did strike me that on the fifth storey the process involves a bird, as does TOoP. CRC also has a dream about a door. I think we all know by now about Harry?s door in TOoP. I also have bad news, I think, for those who want Harry to survive. Just recently I read an email by someone in this group who thinks Harry is going to end up being decapitated. In the Alchemical Wedding, the six kings and queens, plus the executioner himself, are all decapitated, just like John the Baptist. However, just as I said in a previous email, Harry?s death will be either explicitly or implicitly followed by a resurrection in an indestructible body with which he?ll be able to enter the parallel universe. I guess some members of this group think I?m a nut case confusing science fiction with religion. However if I tell you that this Other Universe is called Tao by Lao Tzu, Nirvana by the Buddha, the Kingdom of Heaven by the Christian Gospels, and the Sixth Cosmic Plane by esoteric groups perhaps some of you will begin to change your mind. Dr Rowling makes it clear that death does not automatically make one a saint and it's a mistake to confuse the hereafter with the Universal Potter?s Kingdom. The presence of the Hogwarts ghosts is a good indication. My theory is that the only way to enter the Potter?s Kingdom is to go through an alchemical transformation in which the Philosopher?s Stone is the essential ingredient. And yes I wholeheartedly agree Harry is the living Philosopher?s Stone! More of that in a future posting. This alchemical transformation requires the sacrifice of every part of us that is mortal, finite, time-spatial. Flesh and blood cannot enter the Potter?s Kingdom. This is symbolised so beautifully by Ron?s willingness to sacrifice himself in the chess game. The game symbolises the battle between good and evil in this world. Ron?s knowledge of chess represents his ability to make the right choices between good and evil. He knows that the New Soul can advance only through his willingness to sacrifice himself. This is understandable if we see Harry, Ron and Hermione as aspects of the person going the Royal Way of Liberation. (HRH: His Royal Highness ? the future King!) In one level of meaning Harry is the heart, Hermione the head, and Ron the abdomen. On a higher level, though, Harry is the new, immortal soul born in the pure and thirsting heart (see previous posting). Hermione is the Mercury consciousness which the soul gains during the process of Royal Alchemy (Hermione ? Hermes ? the messenger of God). Ron is the old personality. His role is vital, but only if he is willing to sacrifice himself for the Soul with its new consciousness. I just though I?d add that in, seeing there was some discussion on Ron?s role in the Great Tale. Getting back to the Alchemical Wedding: where there?s a door there?s usually a window. When wizards come from Potter?s Kingdom to tell us about the way back there, they don?t just talk; they usually also enable people who wish to go back the opportunity to do so. Groups of people usually form actually to undertake the journey. I have no idea where the door is at this juncture of time, but it?ll come, I?m sure. The visits by all the major wizards in the past have resulted in groups of people forming to put theory into practice. In the past millennia many millions of people have reacted to the light streaming from the window. Eventually these groups become crystallised and fossilised and die out. However I?m sure there?s always a core group of people who actually find the door. This door leads to Hogwarts. Hogwarts is not the Potter?s Kingdom, but an intermediate phase that leads there. People who have reached the Hogwarts phase have a greater consciousness and are able to achieve liberation if they wish. However, they can also go the occult path, as Voldemort has. I want to take the time turner in a future posting and go 2000 years hence to see what?s happened to Harry Potter by the year HP 2003. Hans --------------------------------- Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jessenigma at aol.com Sun Apr 27 04:46:56 2003 From: jessenigma at aol.com (jessenigma at aol.com) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 00:46:56 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Astronomy DEPARTMENT? (was: Snape's special title) Message-ID: <19a.1405c401.2bdcbac0@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56255 In a message dated 4/26/2003 4:43:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hollydaze at btinternet.com writes: > I always thought the idea of a *subject* corridor implied there was more > than one classroom for that subject but why would you need more than one > classroom if there is only one teacher per subject? Actually, this brings to mind some corridors from my own high school. Only one band director and one choir director, but in the music wing, there is a band room, chorus room, music library, teachers' lounge, a regular classroom, 2 offices, 6 practice rooms, 3 storage rooms, and 2 bathrooms. It is only one subject, but there are several classes within it and thus a need for multiple classrooms, as well as storage rooms for items used in the classes. After all, there is more than one greenhouse used by students in different years of Herbology...perhaps there are different classrooms for different Charms classes? Or there is a regular classroom where most classes are held, then a spare classroom with the ability to hold more specialized equipment for higher levels, and extra storage rooms. I imagine that such a system would be much more common with the required subjects, rather than something like Muggle Studies or Divination, but it would be workable (if not strictly necessary, considering that wizards may not need such accommodation) for most of them. - jess [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ivanova at idcnet.com Sun Apr 27 05:00:25 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 00:00:25 -0500 Subject: ivRe: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sorry. The Sudden Movement. References: <004a01c30c62$41d56be0$4a5b253e@takun> Message-ID: <004101c30c79$eaf27440$0eccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 56256 From: hagrid Well, I have a theory, we know DD had a "number of spies", Snape was one of them, but maybe there were some others among the DE who returned to LV that night. Maybe Snape reacted to the name of one of them, he must know them, he must know who the other spies were because they probably worked together. Just a thought, though. From: Me Why would Snape know who the other spies are/were? That would be an act of sheer idiocy on Dumbledore's part. If Snape were found out, captured, and tortured, he could endanger all of those other spies and seriously hurt Dumbledore's side. Which reminds me of something I was just thinking about today. If Dumbledore's group serves more as a resistance movement, something underground, as opposed to something a little more officially sanctioned, then I wonder if he had his people grouped into little cells. That way, if one cell is exposed, they could only expose a couple of people and not the entire group. Karkaroff in his trial maintained that he did not know who all the DE's were. This may not be true, but I could see it being true if only because of the same reason, and good reasoning it was, since Karkaroff was spilling his guts about them. I do get the impression that the DE's DID know each other based on their meeting in GoF and Voldemort's ease in using their names, but it's still a point to bring up. Unless there are certain DE's that all of them knew, and others that were always present but whose identities were unknown, which would explain how Snape and Pettigrew could both be DE's but Snape not know that Pettigrew was the traitor. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova/ From catlady at wicca.net Sun Apr 27 05:53:47 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 05:53:47 -0000 Subject: ivRe: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sorry. The Sudden Movement. In-Reply-To: <004101c30c79$eaf27440$0eccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56257 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly Grosskreutz" wrote: > Unless there are certain DE's that all of them knew, and others > that were always present but whose identities were unknown, which > would explain how Snape and Pettigrew could both be DE's but Snape > not know that Pettigrew was the traitor. Yes, but how did so many DE prisoners in Azkaban know that Pettigrew was the one who had led the Dark Lord to the Potters / his dis-embodiment, in order to curse his name in their ravings, so that Sirius could tell us about it? From errolowl at yahoo.com Sun Apr 27 07:34:46 2003 From: errolowl at yahoo.com (errolowl) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 07:34:46 -0000 Subject: Brew Glory? Stopper Death? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56258 Snape's opening speech keeps haunting me, primarily for its sheer poetry. And then the last few lines really hit home: SS 137: "I don't expect you will really understand the beauty of a softly simmering cauldron with its shimmering fumes, the delicate power of liquids that creep through human veins, bewitching the mind, ensnaring the senses...I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper death-" Can Wizards really brew glory? Is glory available to everyone who can brew a complicated portion, or who knows someone else whose uncles' friends' mother-in-law's sister can? Why did Lockhart have to go to such difficult lengths to get his moments of fame and glory then? He needn't have tracked down all those witches and wizards and painstakingly interviewed them to compile his books. It ought to have been easier to track down one amenable portion brewer with the requisite skills. And all those of ambitious Slytherins...they have instant glory available right? I can see them brewing it in the common rooms...or have a shop selling Glory Brew in Hogsmead. There doesn't seem to be anything illegal about it either. There probably are restrictions we don't know about yet, but then the making of such portions can apparently be taught at Hogwarts. More interesting is the effect unrestricted access to such potions would have on wizarding society. Everybody can have their moment of glory, everyone is equally famous ? which kind of undermines the concept of fame a bit, I must say. . Besides, what would they be famous *for*? So, no, perhaps its not that easy. Maybe its very very complicated and only a uniquely gifted few can really master it. But that still leaves a handful who can be famous as easy as that. And to those who want fame really badly, Ministry guidelines or restrictions aren't going to be a deterrent. Umm,...maybe that's where it crosses the line to being a dark art ? and that line is pretty blurry. Ah, a side note for the Snapeologists - - Yep, Snape's rant at the end of PoA was just that ? a master show of acting. Enraged at Black's escape maybe, but he didn't really want the prestigious order of Merlin of course. Nah, his ambitions are not fixed on trifles like fame and glory ?he can get those anytime he so pleases. What intrigues me even more is ? what did Snape mean by "stopper death"? Is that still along the lines of `bottle fame', meaning death-captured-in-a-vial? Just pure distilled essence of death? What's so impressive about that? Would serve the same function as a vial of deadly poison right? No, that doesn't quite fit in as the impressive climatic end to that sentence. It sounds more dramatic than a poison, more dramatic than the power to cause death. Then is it putting a stopper on death as in power *over* death? A key to immortality? Keep the forces of death at bay? Is that why Snape gained admittance into Voldmort's inner circle at such a young age? And the reason that he just might be accepted back? Errol Just thinking out loud. From ratchick22 at hotmail.com Sun Apr 27 07:45:59 2003 From: ratchick22 at hotmail.com (herm - own - ninny) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 07:45:59 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] re: Hgwrts robes/Draco Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56259 From: "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" > >I think that rant of Draco's is extremely stupid. Stupid to brag of >his happiness about the Dark Lord's return after his father had >*warned* him (in CoS "it is not - prudent - to appear less than fond >of Harry Potter") to pretend to be on the popular side. Stupid to >interrupt the flow of his own rant by correcting himself about a >minor factual detail like who died first. Me: I agree. Draco didn't make the wisest choice by shouting out his allegiance to the Dark Side like that. Furthermore, I don't think Lucius will be too happy when he finds his son knocked unconscious and gets the whole story from him. I think maybe the reason Draco chose to brag about Voldy's return is because he *had* returned. I'm sure after years of hearing about how great and powerful the Dark Lord was, Draco now thinks that Lucius' precautions aren't necessary. Now, I'm not sure this is due to stupidity, more like disillusionment about what the world will be like now that Voldemort has returned. As for the Cedric correction, that definitely wasn't a stupid thing to do - at least not from Draco's point of view. His aim at the time was to piss Harry off, and reminding him about Cedric's death certainly did the trick...maybe a little too well ;) _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From rosebeth710 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 27 06:33:02 2003 From: rosebeth710 at yahoo.com (Rosebeth) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 23:33:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry & Lord Voldemort's Wands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030427063302.83633.qmail@web41603.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56260 > My take on this was that Fawkes gave two feathers, > but they came from > the same place. He gave one, waited for it to grow > back and then gave > it again. This would make those feathers more > closely related than > any randomly picked feathers from the same bird > right? > So, when picking hair from a unicorn's tail, how > easy would it be to > find the *same* hair? This would make the brother > effects on the > wands a rare occurance....at least more so than if > it was just > required to be from the same animal/being/whatever. > > Innermurk > Me: If Unicorn tails are about the same length as a horse then two or three wands could easly be made from one tail hair. Also, IMHO (no proof) that it what is important is that the feather or hair came from the same animal rather then it being the exact same hair. It could be entirely possilbe that Fawkes gave two feathers at the same time and that Harry's wand sat in Ollivander's shop for 50 plus years waiting for Harry. Rosebeth __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Apr 27 10:00:13 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 10:00:13 -0000 Subject: Harry & Lord Voldemort's Wands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56261 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall" wrote: > > ...edited... > > As Darrin pointed out: > > "So what happens when a wand meets its brother?" - Sirius > (GoF, US paperback, Ch.36, 697) > TOM: > > I've wondered about Priori Incantantem before, as well. Dumbledore > describes it as "a very rare effect," (ibid) .... I mean, there are about a thousand kids at Hogwarts, right? > > .... It seems (to me) more than likely to me that a lot of the wands > he sells are 'brothers,' which makes me skeptical about how 'rare' > this effect actually is. > > My best guess is that people don't force their wands to do battle > too often. > > Anyways, good luck with the debate. > > -Tom bboy_mn: Your point is valid, but you need to take into consideration one aspect that helps rarify the circumstances. For brother wands to create the Priori Incantatem effect, curses have to occur simultaneously. Harry and Voldemort cursed at the same time and their curses met in mid-air. The same thing happen when Harry and Draco fought; they cursed simultaneoudly and their curse met in mid-air, only they ricochet of each other. No Prior Incantatem effect because they weren't brother wands. The statistical likelihood of brother wands meeting and curses occurring simultaneously is pretty slim. Although, I certainly could happen. Note not only do the curse have to occur at the sametime, but they have to collide in mid-air. If one wizard's aim is off, and the curses miss, then there is no effect. So, slim chance for all the conditions to be met. Some people have the mistaken belief that Harry and Voldemort can't curse/fight each other because they have matching wands, but Voldemort does curse Harry while Harry is holding his wand. So the circumstances have to be more precise than just matching cores. Just a thought. bboy_mn From katie.jarvis1 at ntlworld.com Sun Apr 27 09:30:56 2003 From: katie.jarvis1 at ntlworld.com (addictedtobass2003) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 09:30:56 -0000 Subject: More on Dursleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56262 >darrin_burnett: > > Why on earth did the Durseleys take Harry in? Why not just ship him > off to an orphanage, or call the proper authorities, pretend you have > no clue who the kid is, and send him into the system. To answer that question, I believe it was partially about the money. The muggle authorities would give them LOADS of money for taking care of and bringing up a child that wasn't their own (that is of course assuming they know about it, and don't think that Harry has evaporated into thin air) I also believe that the Dursleys had faith that they could squeaze every drop of magical blood out of Harry's veins. I think that Petunia was jealous of Lily's ability, but she still cared about her, regardless of the "freak" comment. I think she wanted Harry to be looked after my family, rather than someone he didnt know. (Although IMHO, i believe he may have been better off with someone else, although explaining the Hogwarts letters to the orphanage or foster family would have been difficult!) > Dumbledore left a letter in Harry's blankets. What was in that letter? > > My guess? Money and maybe an implied threat. Any other thoughts? > Surely it wasn't out of family loyalty. I think the letter explained that the darkest wizard of the age had killed Lily and James, and had tried to kill Harry but failed. Maybe it included why they were killed.........???? I'm not sure about money being enclosed in the letter, because what would Dumbledore be doing with muggle money? You never know, he might have put a few galleons in! You know that would have been funny!!! Do wizards have cheques? Because I imagined the letter to be fairly thin, and you couldn't get many galleons in the space. I'm also not sure about the implied threat either. What could Dumbledore threaten the Dursleys with? However I do believe that in the letter it was also explained that on Harry's 11th birthday, he will be sent for, and he will go to Hogwarts, regardless of the thoughts of the Dursleys. Katie (who started her re-reads early: a few days ago in fact, and has already read all four books at least once, and is currently reading CoS for the second time) From bard7696 at aol.com Sun Apr 27 12:58:04 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 12:58:04 -0000 Subject: More on Dursleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56263 Katie: > > Why on earth did the Durseleys take Harry in? Why not just ship > him > > off to an orphanage, or call the proper authorities, pretend you > have > > no clue who the kid is, and send him into the system. > > To answer that question, I believe it was partially about the > money. The > muggle authorities would give them LOADS of money for taking care of and bringing up a child that wasn't their own (that is of course > assuming they know about it, and don't think that Harry has > evaporated into thin air) First, Katie, thank you for giving me the courtesy of a response and not condescendingly blathering about how we shouldn't take this seriously. There are 55,000 posts here. That horse has already escaped the barn. I realize the welfare system in the UK works differently than in the U.S., but I don't see how LOADS of money would be coming from the state. James and Lily were likely not registered with any kind of Muggle organization such as Social Security, that would give Harry benefits. > I also believe that the Dursleys had faith that they could squeaze > every drop of magical blood out of Harry's veins. > I think that Petunia was jealous of Lily's ability, but she still > cared about her, regardless of the "freak" comment. I think she > wanted Harry to be looked after my family, rather than someone he > didnt know. I do not see any evidence in the Dursleys actions or behavior that indicates Petunia gave a damn. All through the beginning of PS/SS, they talk about never wanting to see Lily and not wanting Harry to associate with Dudley. All you'd have to do is call the police or child-welfare and say, "Someone left this kid on my doorstep." Don't show them the note, or forge another note, and soon enough, the kid will be in the system and someone else's problem. Harry doesn't seem to bear any resemblence to Petunia, even though she is his blood aunt, so they would get away with it. No, I believe Dumbledore said something in that letter. > > Dumbledore left a letter in Harry's blankets. What was in that > letter? > > > > My guess? Money and maybe an implied threat. Any other thoughts? > > Surely it wasn't out of family loyalty. > > I think the letter explained that the darkest wizard of the age had > killed Lily and James, and had tried to kill Harry but failed. > Maybe it included why they were killed.........???? > I'm not sure about money being enclosed in the letter, because what > would Dumbledore be doing with muggle money? The Grangers change Muggle money into Wizard gold at the bank in CoS. Why can't it be changed the other way? Also, Dumbledore reads the Muggle newspapers. It is not inconceivable he's got a stash of Muggle money somewhere, or maybe even a checking account under an assumed name. Or, he told them they would receive a certain amount every month and enclosed the first check. Because I imagined the letter to > be fairly thin, and you couldn't get many galleons in the space. > I'm also not sure about the implied threat either. What could > Dumbledore threaten the Dursleys with? Oh, turning them into pigs, for one. He's a wizard! All he has to do is say, "Jiggory-Piggory" and watch them run. However I do believe that in > the letter it was also explained that on Harry's 11th birthday, he > will be sent for, and he will go to Hogwarts, regardless of the > thoughts of the Dursleys. That's possible. Still, the Durselys have not only taken Harry in, but have accepted him back three years in a row during the summer, even after he blew up Aunt Marge. They are getting paid off. OR there is something about the Dursleys we don't know yet. Darrin -- I come here because I want one thing I don't have to take seriously, damn it. From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Apr 27 15:02:04 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 27 Apr 2003 15:02:04 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <1051455724.39.71143.m13@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56264 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat Date: Sunday, April 27, 2003 Time: 11:00AM - 7:00PM CDT (GMT-05:00) Hi everyone! Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. *Chat times are not changing for Daylight Saving/Summer Time.* Chat generally goes on for about 5 hours, but can last as long as people want it to last. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type /join HP:1 For further info, see the Humongous BigFile, section 3.3. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hbfile.html#33 Hope to see you there! From meboriqua at aol.com Sun Apr 27 15:16:10 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 15:16:10 -0000 Subject: More on Dursleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56265 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_rude_mechanical" wrote: > Whoa! I like to think of Rowling's description of Harry's life with the Dursleys as being as fantastical as his life at Hogwarts, but without the magic. Clearly, penning a child into a cupboard, feeding him only bread and cheese, and throwing frying pans at him are all horrible forms of child abuse, but these are still children's books. My point, and I do have one, is that I don't think that Harry's life is meant to be taken seriously in any form--his mistreatment (and arguably that of Dudley's) at the hands of Vernon and Petunia are exaggerated to be funny--this is, after all, fantasy!! =)> While the Dursleys' treatment of Harry seems quite exaggerated, it really isn't so funny. Even JKR herself has said that she feels sorry for Dudley and thinks he is as much a victim of his parents as is Harry. We may laugh at Dudley's description, but JKR knows it really isn't a laughing matter. I think the same of the Dursleys' treatment of Harry in general. The sad thing is that there really are a lot of children out there who are treated exactly as Harry was, but they don't find out they are wizards and have the opportunity to start a new life elsewhere. That is, IMO, one of the reasons I love the series so much. It is hard to understand why Harry has managed to be so grounded after living with the Dursleys, but there are kids who have the ability to see outside of their situation. At least Harry always had the knowledge that the Dursleys aren't his real parents. He also, as was said in SS, has had numerous hints that he didn't belong with the Dursleys at all - strangely dressed people coming up to him in the street and shaking his hand, hair growing back overnight and so on. Some people believe that Lily's love for Harry was enough to keep him going all those lonely years with the Dursleys, or that she even used her Charms talents to instill that love in Harry once she was gone. --jenny from ravenclaw **************** From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Sun Apr 27 15:25:52 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 15:25:52 -0000 Subject: Life debts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56266 Darrin wrote: > Lost in all this is that I'm not sure Snape owes a magically- binding > debt to James, the same way Pettigrew now does to Harry. Just. I don't think that Dumbledore has ever said that Snape owes a life-debt to James. But then we only have one case of life-debt creation... But my theory can still hold, right? > It is entirely possible that Snape, who knew more curses than >anyone else, could have escaped from Lupin. Hmmm. James apparently didn't think so. And I don't think so either. But the logistics of the whole event, as well as the way the trap- door works in there, are way beyond me. There's this quote: "And then the tunnel began to rise; moments later it twisted, and Crookshanks had gone. Instead, Harry could see a patch of dim light through a small opening." And this one: "Harry pulled himself out of the hole, staring around." Lupin said: "Snape glimpsed me, though, at the end of the tunnel." That means that the tunnel turned sharply right before the entrance to the Shack, and that it's connected to the Shack via a *hole* in the Shack's floor. But then, assuming that there are magical wards or a hinged trapdoor, how could Snape be in danger if he hadn't actually entered the SS? And, according to Lupin's statement, he hadn't entered it. That third quote I also don't understand. What does "At the end of the tunnel" mean? That Lupin was in the tunnel, or that Lupin was in the SS, and Snape saw him through the opening? Anyway, I don't think that it really matters. Since James obviously saved Snape's life, as even Snape admits it, then either those wards were "turned off" for some reason, such as a midnight romp in the Forbidden Forest, or Lupin was actually in the tunnel. So, I suppose the logistics aren't really as screwed up as they appear to be (to me, at least). But, the main thing is, since everyone says that James saved his life, then it's probably true. Lupin also said: "but your father, who'd heard what Sirius had done, went after Snape and pulled him back, at great risk to his life" >It is also possible that James snatching the back of Snape's robes >and saying, "Look, man, you can't go there" isn't enough to kick in >the magic debt. I think that Snape was in danger, and since the tunnel turned sharply right before its end, then Snape probably wouldn't have had a whole lot of time to take his wand out and the Stupefy Lupin... if that's even possible. > Publicly, Snape refuses to acknowledge anything James did. He > dismisses it in front of Harry, which contradicts what Dumbledore > says about Snape feeling like he needed to save Harry to be at >peace with his hatred of James. Does it? I don't think it does. > Couple of ideas how Snape could be thinking: > > 1) Snape just refuses to give Harry the satisfaction of thanking his > father. He'll never admit the debt to Harry. Ah, but he admits it. He says that James was saving his own life as much as Snape's, but that's still admitting it. > 2) Snape isn't admitting it to himself. When he tells Harry that he > doesn't owe James squat, he means it. He might be telling himself > that he just did what any teacher should do when he saved Harry at > the Quidditch match. Dumbledore, who knows what goes on in that > greasy head, has made a good guess as to the real reason. That's probably how it is. But he fact remains that he *does* owe James his life. > Frankly, I think Snape is more interesting if there isn't some > magical life-debt going on here and this is driven by some twisted > logical code of honor. As the books progress and we get more > theories, I find I want motivations of the major characters to be > less driven by magic and more driven by their characters. The thing is that in the books, JKR often uses magical devices to show what's going on in people's heads and their motivations instead of pshychology. The Mirror of Erised is one thing. Yes, Harry wants a family, and yes, it's enough to cut him off from reality, but instead of delving into the realm of pshychology and analysis of Harry, JKR gives us a magical device and *shows* us all this. Er, someone said this so much better than I did... Yes, Snape driven by a code of honor is a good thing. It's very appealing and interesting. But we can have both, can't we? Anyway, I hope all this makes sense. I'm getting kicked off the computer, so I can't even double-check everything. > Darrin > -- Murder Ick would be a great name for a band. Send your royalties > to Maria. Aw... :) I'm flattered. Would Life Debt be a good name for a band? Maria, wishing a Happy Easter to those who celebrate it today, and a great day to everyone else. From JessaDrow at aol.com Sun Apr 27 15:35:11 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 11:35:11 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <16c.1dc085c8.2bdd52af@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56267 Well I tried several times to enter the chat today and it won't let me for some reason. I was in it last week, I keep getting two messages stating.. DHTML was unable to load correctly. [no voice object] press enter to return to chat front page.. And DHTML was unable to load correctly. [No popup object]. If anyone has any advice I'd appericate it, I'm heading out for an hour or two but I'll be back, thanks. ~Faith~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Sun Apr 27 11:25:20 2003 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Ivan=20Vablatsky?=) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 12:25:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: corollary to Christan Rosencreutz and HP Message-ID: <20030427112520.59830.qmail@web21511.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56268 After posting my message last night I could hear in my head one of you saying, "Ah, but did CRC have a mark on his head, like Harry?" Silly of me, but I'd never thought of it before. Yes he does! On the first day CRC hits his head against a sharp rock, and blood trickles down. On the way across the lake to the Tower of Olympus CRC mentions the wound again, saying that Cupid was beginning to work in him due to this wound. To me Cupid is a reference to divine love, and this fits in with my theory that Harry's, Cain's and CRC's marks were all signs of God's love (see my remarks about Cain's mark). Hans --------------------------------- Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From katie.jarvis1 at ntlworld.com Sun Apr 27 11:35:06 2003 From: katie.jarvis1 at ntlworld.com (addictedtobass2003) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 11:35:06 -0000 Subject: FILK: Hoggy-Hogwarts Train Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56269 To the tune of Summer Holiday by Cliff Richard (yes it's sad that I've written a song to THAT tune but oh well!) Scene: Book 1 - September 1st 1991 at King's Cross Station, Platform 9 3/4 Harry, Hermione, Ron, Neville and Seamus have just met on the platform They are all very excited and burst into song! Harry: We're all going on the Hoggy-Hogwarts train No more Dursleys, or Privet Drive too Ron: We're all going on the Hoggy-Hogwarts train I'm told Dumbledore is cuckoo We'll see if it's true Harry: We're going off to Hogwarts castle Surrounded by a tree or two Hermione: I've read it in Hogwarts: A History Now let's see if its true Harry: We're all going on the Hoggy-Hogwarts train No more Dursleys, or Privet Drive too Ron: We're all going on the Hoggy-Hogwarts train I'm told Dumbledore is cuckoo We'll see if it's true Seamus: I really cannot wait to be sorted I wonder what the hat will choose Neville: If I'm Slytherin I'll be angry And I've lost Trevor too! All: We're all going on the Hoggy-Hogwarts train We are gonna learn a spell or two We're all going on the Hoggy-Hogwarts train Hermione: There's lots of magic to do Ron: We're the Hoggywarts Crew All: On the Hoggywarts choo! This is my first attempt so let me know what you think of it! addictedtobass2003 (low register notes, not marine animal) (Katie) From titaniclady_1912 at hotmail.com Sun Apr 27 10:34:49 2003 From: titaniclady_1912 at hotmail.com (Anne(Anja)) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 10:34:49 -0000 Subject: Sirius's prank and the mysterious Florence Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56270 Hi all this is my first post on this list , so I hope I'll do everything right. Recently I re-read all four Harry Potter books and stumbled over some bits of information concerning Snape that could make some sense if you put them together The following mainly works as a possible explanation of the prank Sirius played on Severus during their schooldays. I don't think that Sirius just thought it to be funny to kill another student , even if it was an enemy of his. He must have had his reasons for doing so and that's what I'm going to have a try on. Reading the books I caught the impression that the rivalry between Slytherin and Gryffindor already existed during the time of the Marauders. James clearly seems to have been the leader of the Gryffindor gang while it is a bit unsure if Severus had a similar popularity among his Slytherins. Anyway , it were James and Severus who regarded each other as enemies , at least that's what Dumbledore , Lupin and Black seem to believe. Now we have this strange sentence in GoF in which Dumbledore sees Bertha Jorkins in the Pensieve telling about someone who kissed a girl named Florence behind the greenhouse. I know that this has been discussed before and I honestly believe that it was Snape Florence was kissing , regarding alone the fact that this someone "put a hex on her (Bertha)" , something that sounds very much like a thing Snape would do. We know that Bertha loved gossip and that this was probably the reason she went after Florence and her boyfriend . So this relationship must have been of some interest to her . But why ? Maybe because it was a secret one. Assuming that it was really Snape who kissed Florence , there is only one reason why he wouldn't want anyone to know about that : because Florence was a Gryffindor ? and , to make my theory work , James Potter's sister. They would have had to keep their relationship secret since Severus would probably have gotten some serious problems with his fellow Slytherins if it had come out , just as Florence would have had with her brother. Now Bertha saw them , probably told a lot of people and in the end even confronted Severus who put a hex on her. James , along with his friends , was probably angry as well and maybe even told his parents who made Florence go to another school or something like that. Anyway , their relationship came to an end but for Severus some serious problems arose through the fact that his gang of Slytherins didn't trust him anymore. So he had to do something really great to gain their friendship and maybe also their admiration again. And now there's Sirius who tells him about something he always wanted to know : How to discover Remus's secret. Even if Severus doesn't actually trust Sirius he doesn't have a real choice since this is an unique occasion for him to do something the Slytherins would think of as great , especially if he managed to get Lupin expelled. So he went there but was saved by James who clearly must have been told by someone who knew Sirius's plan , maybe by Lily Evans. I am pretty sure that James didn't have a clue what Sirius was up to and wouldn't have approved of it , had he known about it. Nevertheless I believe that Sirius acted out of friendship for James. Just think of his Animagus : He's a dog and dogs are known to be very faithful animals and JKR herself said in an interview that the Animagus of a person reflects his character. Maybe Sirius thought that Severus should be "punished" in some way for "seducing" his best friend's sister , maybe he was secretly in love with her himself and therefore his prank an act of pure jealousy. In every case , I think that there's more to Severus and Sirius hatred for each other than meets the eye. I will close this with Snape's words to Hermione when she tries to make him listen to Sirius : "Don't talk about what you don't understand." I am sorry this has gotten a pretty long post but I have been pondering about this for some time and now would be interested to hear what others think about it. Thanks for listening , Anja From a_rude_mechanical at yahoo.com Sun Apr 27 16:11:01 2003 From: a_rude_mechanical at yahoo.com (a_rude_mechanical) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 16:11:01 -0000 Subject: More on Dursleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56271 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > > First, Katie, thank you for giving me the courtesy of a response and > not condescendingly blathering about how we shouldn't take this > seriously. > > There are 55,000 posts here. That horse has already escaped the barn. > > > Darrin > -- I come here because I want one thing I don't have to take > seriously, damn it. Okay. I can only assume you are referring to me. I want to clarify something--a couple things. First of all, I'm a member here too--I lurve the HP series and fantasy in general. I was NOT raising issue with close examination of the books--you're talking about a woman who could spend hours discussing the properties of the Marauder's Map! I love HP because it is something I don't have to take seriously. (yeesh) On to the topic at hand. Harry's life at the Dursleys. From the first book on, the Dursleys are written as caricatures of our boring- est neighbors, rather than real people. From their physical descriptions (ie Dudley being the size of a small whale) to their actions (ie locking Harry in a cupboard) they are clearly larger-than- life characters. When I said they are not meant to be taken seriously, all I meant was that--although we do feel sorry for Harry-- his predicament is written to be over-exaggerated and humorous. I wouldn't enjoy the books so much otherwise, I don't think, because the question would indeed come up: why, Dumbldore? Why allow him to go back? Am I totally alone on this one? Elisabeth, (who apologizes for blathering condescendingly...) From ehawkes at iinet.net.au Sun Apr 27 10:49:26 2003 From: ehawkes at iinet.net.au (Emma Hawkes) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 18:49:26 +0800 Subject: Dean Thomas and Race Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56272 There are very few differences between the British and American editions of the Harry Potter novels. Aside from the change of title from Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone to Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone, most of the textual changes translate British idiom into American: 'dustbin' into 'trashcan', 'video recorder' into 'VCR' and 'jumper' into 'sweater'.1 There is, however, one major change in the first novel - Dean Thomas gains a defined racial identity. In the British Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone Dean is not mentioned at the sorting ceremony. The Sorting Hat seems to skip over him. And now there were only three people left to be sorted. "Turpin, Lisa," became a Ravenclaw and then it was Ron's turn.2 But in the American version, Dean gets a description. [There were only] three people left to be sorted. "Thomas, Dean," a Black boy even taller than Ron, joined Harry at the Gryffindor table. "Turpin, Lisa" became...3 Why this change? Why has Dean been given a racial identity? ***** J.K. Rowling has specifically addressed the issue of prejudice in the Harry Potter novels, but the issue is defined in terms of prejudice between Muggle-born and pureblood wizards and in terms of inter-species relations. In a 2002 interview, Rowling stated: From the beginning of the Philosopher's Stone prejudice is a very strong theme - and I think it's plausible that Harry enters the world - that's how I wanted it to be - he was quite wide-eyed about it, everything will be wonderful in this world, this is the place where those sort of injustices didn't happen and then he finds out that sure enough it happens. And it's a shock to him like to everyone else and he finds out that he's a half person within the confines of the world. To a wizard like Lucius Malfoy, Harry will never be a true wizard because his mother was of muggle parentage. So this is a very important theme and I always knew - well obviously I knew I've been trying to do it for ten years now - yes so that becomes stronger and stronger.4 There is an anti-Muggle sentiment at Hogwarts. When Harry first meets Draco Malfoy, Draco suggests that Muggle-born wizards should not be educated with purebloods.5 Even more sympathetic characters, such as Alfred Weasley, patronise Muggles.6 But there is apparently no discrimination on the basis of race in the wizarding world. Harry meets students of African and Asian descent at Hogwarts. Lee Jordan's ethnicity is perhaps coded in his dreadlocks and his exotic pet (a tarantula when the approved list is either toad, owl or cat). Angelina Johnson is described as black in the fourth book. The Asian backgrounds of Gryffindor Parvati Patil and Ravenclaws Padma Patil and Cho Chang may be deduced from their names. The ethnicity of these characters can only be perceived through close reading and is never presented as a matter which other wizards or witches might comment on. Indeed, it is not until Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire that the international nature of the wizarding world becomes apparent to Harry. At the Quidditch World Cup Harry becomes aware that witches and wizards have flown in from all over the world to celebrate the sporting event. It was only just dawning on Harry how many witches and wizards there must be in the world; he had never really thought much about those in other countries.... Harry caught snatches of conversation in strange languages... and though he couldn't understand a single word, the tone of every voice was excited.7 In Quidditch through the Ages it is revealed that the world Cup has attacted international competitors since the seventeenth century, though it is not so popular in Asia where 'the flying broomstick is a rarity' and 'the carpet is still the preferred mode of travel'.8 Rowling shows the different nationalities of the wizarding world drawn together in cheerful competition and celebration. ***** If race is a matter which is irrelevant in the novels - if Hogwarts genuinely is a colour-blind place - why is Dean's race highlighted in the American edition of the first novel of the series? Rowling stated that she and her American editor decided that 'words should be altered only where we felt they would be incomprehensible, even in context, to an American reader.'9 Perhaps it is incomprehensible to American readers that at least some of Harry's classmates would not be black. The difference between the British and American editions might stem from the readers' expectations in the two countries. The 2001 census showed that 87% of the poplation of England identified as white.7 At the same time 2% of the English population are of Indian descent, 0.5% are of Bangladeshi descent, 1.1% are of black Caribbean descent, 0.9% are of black African descent, a further 0.2% are descended from other black groups and 0.4% are of Chinese descent. This makes England a much whiter place than America, where 75.1% of the population identified as white and 12.3% as black American, 0.9% as American Indian and 3.6% are of Chinese descent.8 This demographic difference may explain the change in Dean Thomas' designated race. In the British edition race is irrelevant, mentioned only in passing. And perhaps in the American edition the same thing applies, but it is assumed that more students at Hogwarts would be black. It might be that Arthur Levine, the American editor, could not envision a school without black students. This would explain the highlighting of Dean's race. What is known about Dean? That he is a Gryffindor, that he is artistic and that he supports West Ham, an east London football team with little mass appeal. And, of course, that his race is highlighted in order to display the colour-blindness of the world of the Harry Potter novels. "Emma Hawkes" From rayheuer3 at aol.com Sun Apr 27 14:07:59 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 10:07:59 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: More on Dursleys Message-ID: <1dc.86c8068.2bdd3e3f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56273 katie.jarvis1 at ntlworld.com writes: > I'm not sure about money being enclosed in the letter, because what > would Dumbledore be doing with muggle money? You never know, he > might have put a few galleons in! We know from Chamber of Secrets that Gringotts has an exchange window. Hermione's parents are there and Mr. Weasley makes a fuss over them changing "muggle money". Perhaps Dumbledore stopped off at Gringotts and slipped a couple of "tenners" into the letter. Mind you, Hagrid is of the opinion that Dumbledore's letter was meant for Harry, not the Durselys! -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rayheuer3 at aol.com Sun Apr 27 14:11:24 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 10:11:24 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Professors & their Pets Message-ID: <1c7.8c64cac.2bdd3f0c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56274 rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es writes: > What kind of pet do you thing suits Snape? A raven? A black cat? A snake of course. He is head of Slytherin House. A large one, though, like an Anaconda. -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ivanova at idcnet.com Sun Apr 27 14:17:41 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 09:17:41 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sorry. The Sudden Movement. References: Message-ID: <000101c30cc7$c4148450$43ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 56275 From: Me > Unless there are certain DE's that all of them knew, and others > that were always present but whose identities were unknown, which > would explain how Snape and Pettigrew could both be DE's but Snape > not know that Pettigrew was the traitor. From: Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) Yes, but how did so many DE prisoners in Azkaban know that Pettigrew was the one who had led the Dark Lord to the Potters / his dis-embodiment, in order to curse his name in their ravings, so that Sirius could tell us about it? From: Me But do we know they say Peter's name when they are cursing him? Here's the quote from PoA: "You haven't been hiding from *me* for twelve years," said Black. "You've been hiding from Voldemort's old supporters. I heard things in Azkaban, Peter...They all think you're dead, or you'd have to answer to them....I've heard them screaming all sorts of things in their sleep. Sounds like they think the double-crosser double-crossed them." The DE's knew that someone from Dumbledore's side had turned and was now working for them. This person had given Voldemort the information that took him to the Potters'. The DE's in Azkaban are furious with this person because they think he was really a double agent, saying he was working for Voldemort but really working for Dumbledore. Sirius *knows* the identity of the person they are talking about because he knows who betrayed the Potters' to Voldemort. Even if they never said his name, Sirius would still be able to figure it out. Another possibility is that the DE's in Azkaban were some of the ones who knew Peter was a DE, and Snape was just one of the ones who didn't know Peter's identity. Yet another possibility is that Voldemort had already begun to wonder about Snape's loyalty and therefore didn't entrust him with the knowledge of Peter's defection. It even could have happened that Voldemort believed Snape to be working for him the whole war, but had him spying on Dumbledore (making him the true double agent). If Voldemort was employing Snape as a spy, he wouldn't tell him about Peter in case Dumbledore tumbled onto Snape's duplicity and tortured the information out of Snape. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova/ From KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET Sun Apr 27 14:41:34 2003 From: KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET (Linda) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 14:41:34 -0000 Subject: Life debts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56276 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" Darrin wrote, > Frankly, I think Snape is more interesting if there isn't some > magical life-debt going on here and this is driven by some twisted > logical code of honor. As the books progress and we get more > theories, I find I want motivations of the major characters to be > less driven by magic and more driven by their characters. Me: I like the idea of there not actually being a life debt involved between Snape and James. As far as I can recall, this is just assumption based on canon anyway. Yes, Dumbledore tells us about the fact that James saved Snape at the end of SS/PS. However, once he tells Harry about the life debt that Pettigrew owes him at the end of POA, we never hear any referance to the connection to life debts and Snape/James and by extension, Harry. Without knowing the exact circumstances that are required in order to acquire a LD, there is really no proof in canon that this kind of ancient magic has been invoked. as it were. I think it fits better if we are talking about a personal code of honor that Snape has as part of who he is. I agree that from a character development point of view it would definitely make the story line more interesting. We really know very little about Snape and this would make a world of sense considering what we do know. Never been a Snape fan before but... Linda From rayheuer3 at aol.com Sun Apr 27 14:45:55 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 10:45:55 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Brew Glory? Stopper Death? Message-ID: <74.2d8bba71.2bdd4723@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56277 In a message dated 4/27/03 3:36:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, errolowl at yahoo.com writes: > Snape's opening speech keeps haunting me, primarily for > its sheer poetry. And then the last few lines really hit home: > > SS 137: > "I don't expect you will really understand the beauty of a > softly simmering cauldron with its shimmering fumes, the delicate > power of liquids that creep through human veins, bewitching the mind, > ensnaring the senses...I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew > glory, even stopper death-" <> I agree that the speech is basically poetry, but it has practical applications.... Bottle fame: A mediocre actor who slips a Love Potion to all the major critics will win many awards. Unprincipled, and probably illegal in the HP universe, but doable. Brew glory: Fame and glory can be had among wizardkind by brewing a new kind of potion. By definition, Snape can't teach you the recipe, but he can teach you how herbs and powders interact so that you can try something that hasn't been tried before. Stopper death: Just a poetic way of saying he'll teach you how to brew poisons. Why didn't Lockhart brew potions to win fame and glory? Perhaps he wasn't good enough (Snape seemed to be the first to see through Lockhart's posturing). Perhaps, for him, memory charms were the easier way. JMNSHO -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catlady at wicca.net Sun Apr 27 16:30:01 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 16:30:01 -0000 Subject: Brew Glory? Stopper Death? In-Reply-To: <74.2d8bba71.2bdd4723@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56278 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, rayheuer3 at a... wrote: > Stopper death: Just a poetic way of saying he'll teach you how to > brew poisons. Maybe he could mean, how to brew antidotes and cures that will save people's lives (stop death). I don't think Snape meant 'stop' when he said 'stopper' (clue: IIRC the celluloid thing that must not be named says "put a stopper in death"), but I don't think that makes a difference. Is the death into which we are putting a stopper a literal bottle of death (poison), or is it the giant abstraction Death viewed as perhaps a tunnel that the person would have fallen into except that we blocked the tunnel entrance (with a stopper)? From tammy at mauswerks.net Sun Apr 27 16:46:09 2003 From: tammy at mauswerks.net (Tammy Rizzo) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 12:46:09 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Stopper Death? In-Reply-To: <74.2d8bba71.2bdd4723@aol.com> Message-ID: <3EABD111.27799.5E059FA@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 56279 On 27 Apr 2003 at 10:45, rayheuer3 at aol.com wrote: > Stopper death: Just a poetic way of saying he'll teach you how to brew > poisons. > > -- Ray I'm positive that in something like 55,000 messages, this has been addressed before, but I have to say that I've *ALWAYS* read 'stopper death' not as dealing with poisons, but as putting a stopper, or a plug, into death itself, the death process. I see it as making potions to postpone, suspend, or even reverse the death process, so long as the process of dying hadn't been completed. We know that Voldemort had taken great pains to ensure his continued survival. We know that unicorn's blood will keep you alive even if you are an inch from death. We know it helped maintain Vapormort. I think Snape was very likely involved in some of Voldemort's preparations, brewing things for his master, some of which might have contained unicorn blood. That's what I think of when I read 'stopper death' -- the extremely difficult and advanced potions that would put off the inevitability of dying. Anyway, that's my take on it. *** Tammy tammy at mauswerks.net From bard7696 at aol.com Sun Apr 27 17:47:10 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 17:47:10 -0000 Subject: Life debts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56280 Maria, responding to me: > > Lost in all this is that I'm not sure Snape owes a magically- > binding > > debt to James, the same way Pettigrew now does to Harry. > > Just. I don't think that Dumbledore has ever said that Snape owes a > life-debt to James. But then we only have one case of life-debt > creation... But my theory can still hold, right? Sure it can, perky girl. :) Most theories out here CAN hold. It's just a case of which one you like. > > It is entirely possible that Snape, who knew more curses than > >anyone else, could have escaped from Lupin. > > Hmmm. James apparently didn't think so. And I don't think so either. Nah, I don't really think so, either. I just wonder, for the life debt thing to work, does it have to be certain death? In UK PS page 217, Dumbledore explains Snape's feelings to Harry. "Funny the way people's minds work, isn't it? Prof. Snape couldn't bear being in your father's debt... I do believe he worked so hard to protect you this year because he felt that would make him and your father quits. then he could go back to hating your father's memory in peace..." This really reads like the debt is in Snape's head, not the result of any magic compulsion. I also take issue with the "worked so hard to protect you this year." Near as I can tell, Snape did a counter-curse, refereed a Quidditch match and that was it. All of his work in trying to stop Quirrell, in hindsight, had less to do with protecting Harry and more to do with protecting the Philospher's Stone. Now, moving on to PoA, and the discussion of the debt there: pg 210. Snape, after insulting James in front of Harry, (classy) finally provokes Harry to anger. "Your saintly father and his friends played a highly amusing joke on me that would have resulted in my death if your father hadn't got cold feet at the last moment. There was nothing brave about what he did. He was saving his own skin as much as mine." Now, Lupin, pg 261 "Your father, who'd heard what Sirius had done, went after Snape and pulled him back, at great risk to his life." Again, this still seems like it could all be taking place without magical binding forcing Snape to repay the debt. What Dumbledore, Snape and Lupin agree on is that Snape was doomed without James. (So, you're right, Snape was a dead duck, or bat, or whatever, without James.) Snape doesn't think much, at least publicly, of James risking his own life, D-Dore doesn't comment on it and Lupin thinks it was brave. I tend to agree with Snape on this one. I think that if push came to shove, James could just become Prongs -- a werewolf is only a danger to people, we are told on page 260 -- and leave Lupin to kill Snape. Dog Sirius was only attacked by Lupin-Wolf because he tried to stop Lupin from hurting HRH and Snape. What I do wonder is what happened down there. Maybe James caught up with Snape well before the Shrieking Shack and Snape wouldn't believe James when he said it was a good idea to leave. That makes sense. Snape wouldn't believe James. He would have thought James was trying to protect Lupin. On general principle, he would have wanted to keep going, just because James said not to. He might even have magically attacked James at one point, and James kept at it, stopping him just as they got to the Shack. Snape realized that James was telling the truth and Snape almost blundered into his own death. THAT would really annoy the hell out of someone like Snape. James was trying to do something good for him, and Snape wouldn't listen. Again, it just boils down to personal preference. I find Snape more interesting if he has a code of honor that is different from others. I mean, Harry would probably be willing to call it quits if Snape just stopped picking on him, Ron and Hermione, but of course, Snape will never do that. Snape has to satisfy this debt in his own way. Darrin -- Life Debt would indeed be a good name for a band. From d_lea25 at yahoo.ca Sun Apr 27 17:48:59 2003 From: d_lea25 at yahoo.ca (Lea) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 13:48:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Transfiguration vs Animagus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030427174859.81207.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56281 Steve wrote: >Common Transfiguration is that casting of a >specific spell that is >probably short lived (I didn't see anyone >casting a counter spell to >change Viktor back to his normal self, so I >assumed after an hour the >spell just wore off). Although, it is >possible that there are other >tranfiguation spells that would cause >permanent or at least long term >changes. These would be more like >transfiguration spells used as curses. And now me: To use another example here - what about Fred & George's Canary Creams? The "victim" turns into a canary after eating one, but the spell only appears to last for about 10 minutes, at which point the "canary" moults and the person is restored to their original state. I'm sure that Professor McGonagle would be very proud that they had been paying such close attention in her class - if she only knew! Lea :) --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From d_lea25 at yahoo.ca Sun Apr 27 19:05:18 2003 From: d_lea25 at yahoo.ca (Lea) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 15:05:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Dark Marks In-Reply-To: <000501c30ba6$b4811160$41ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: <20030427190518.22241.qmail@web13007.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56282 Kelly Grosskreutz wrote: >From: Ladi lyndi >Of course, this also brings me to the >question of >how the DE's knew where Voldemort was so they >could Apparate to him. I wonder if the Dark >Mark comes with a GPS? LOL >From: Me >How did they know? Through magic! 8) >Maybe there's some spell that's a version of >the Apparate one that will >allow a person to Apparate directly to where >a person is standing. In this >case, I can see Voldemort devising his own >spell that he taught his DE's so >that when he called them, they could show up >immediately. Either that, or >maybe the Dark Mark magically imparts the >knowledge to the DE so s/he just >*knows* where he is. >Kelly Grosskreutz And now me: I seem to recall reading somewhere, and of course I can't recall exactly where - the dark mark is used similarly to a portkey, which means that Voldemort knows where they are headed, even if they are unsure of his location at the time of his summons. This would make sense, as the DE actual locations could be ANYWHERE at the time of the summons. Lea :) --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From d_lea25 at yahoo.ca Sun Apr 27 19:41:31 2003 From: d_lea25 at yahoo.ca (Lea) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 15:41:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: More on Dursleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030427194131.28926.qmail@web13003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56283 a_rude_mechanical wrote: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > Something that just hit me as I was re-reading the beginning of PS/SS > to doublecheck another tidbit. > > Why on earth did the Durseleys take Harry in? Why not just ship him > off to an orphanage, or call the proper authorities, pretend you have > no clue who the kid is, and send him into the system. and later... > > Why did Dumbledore allow the abuse, emotional and physical, of Harry > to continue? > and later... > And the Dursleys are just too earthy a people not to raise their > hands to Harry. > > As has been pointed out, it's damned lucky Harry didn't grow up to be > a serial killer, being locked in a cupboard for 10 years and made to > be a slave. Dumbledore, to my way of thinking, took an awful chance, > letting that continue. and later.. > > And lastly, I don't believe for a second that the Dursleys have done > Dudley any favors. > Darrin >Whoa! I like to think of Rowling's >description of Harry's life with >the Dursleys as being as fantastical as his >life at Hogwarts, but >without the magic. Clearly, penning a child >into a cupboard, feeding >him only bread and cheese, and throwing >frying pans at him are all >horrible forms of child abuse, but these are >still children's books. >My point, and I do have one, is that I don't >think that Harry's life >is meant to be taken seriously in any form-->his mistreatment (and >arguably that of Dudley's) at the hands of >Vernon and Petunia are >exaggerated to be funny--this is, after all, >fantasy!! =) >Elisabeth And now me: I have to agree with Darrin on this one. I don't find Harry's situation with the Dursleys to be funny or exaggerated (on Harry's part). I believe the abuse is there - on more than one level - and I'm very relieved that Harry seems to have escaped their parenting skills. I am not sure why Dumbledore is of the belief that Harry is safer at 4 Privet Drive, personally I have my doubts. What is the legal age in England for leaving home? In Canada it is 16. Lea (who is eagerly awaiting Harry's "coming of age" so he can tell the Dursley's exactly what he thinks of their loving "care", although he probably won't) --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Apr 27 19:48:01 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 27 Apr 2003 19:48:01 -0000 Subject: File - Nimbus Fundraiser.txt Message-ID: <1051472881.45181153.56877.m12@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56284 Hi all -- Over the last four years, HP4GU has been the best online source for in-depth, mature discussion of all things Potter. The list has burgeoned to 6,300 members, more than twelve sister and regional lists, and the finest collection of Fantastic Posts essays about HP that one can locate on the web. Regional meetings are no longer so regional. In New York City, Chicago, London, Germany and all over the world in fact, we have met, sometimes in handfuls, sometimes in large numbers. And now, this summer, Harry Potter fans take the next step. More than 400 fans will converge on Orlando, Florida, to create the single largest gathering yet, at the *first ever* symposium centered solely on Harry Potter. But you know all this - or you do if you've been around lately. What you might not know is that Nimbus - 2003 needs HP4GU's help. And HP4GU needs your help. This vitally important first year's symposium - and therefore future symposia - depends on your support. Many people have said things like, "Well, I can't afford Nimbus this year, so I'll wait for next year." We certainly understand if you can't attend this year. But, if you can't go this time, there's an easy way you can help ensure that there is a next time. When the Nimbus - 2003 team formed in June of 2002, they envisioned an event that would set the tone. They saw the groundwork for future events, perhaps even eventually large enough to rent our own castle in Scotland for a long week-end. If event after event can prove our sincerity and our integrity, then perhaps we will win the respect of WB, JKR's agents, and even JKR herself. We could position this chain of symposia to become the official convention for adults, and possibly even become the preferred symposium for pursuit of the books. But without fan support, none of that can happen. Corporate sponsorship, which the event's organizers believed would be a natural source of funding, has not materialized as anticipated. Even corporations with significant ties to HP merchandise have been uninterested. The Nimbus - 2003 team attributes this to changing relationships of licensees to WB, the struggle of an unhistoried, untested event, and of course the general economy and world situation. Despite their hope that they would be able to supplement registrations with corporate contributions and lift the burden from the fans, the team finds themselves in need of grassroots assistance. Since Nimbus is the event that HP4GU inspired, they have turned to us, as well as the corners of the fandom, for that help. That is why, in addition to lending its reputation and support to Nimbus - 2003, we at HP4GU would like to make that support financial and be an official Nimbus "Symposium Sponsor." Nimbus offers Symposium Sponsorhip at the level of $15,000 (USD). That sounds like a lot. But remember how we said that the list boasts over 6,000 members? That means that if only half of you are able to donate $5 apiece, HP4GU can realize its goal. If you can give more, please give more, because we know there are those among you who cannot give any, much as you might like to. This sponsorship would pay for: ** Internet cafe, so that attendees and presenters can connect with HP fans around the world who are unable to attend Nimbus - 2003. Cost includes computer rental and internet access costs. [$5,000] ** Coverage of honoraria, hotel, and airfare for the Special Guests, including: Judith Krug, Connie Neal, John Granger, Philip Nel, and Roger Highfield [$3,500] ** Coverage of the Judith Krug Keynote Luncheon (Judith Krug is the Director of the Office of Intellectual Freedom for the American Library Association and will speak on the subject of censorship and book banning, with reference to Harry Potter in particular) [$3,000] ** The Farewell Breakfast on Sunday [$2,500] ** Welcoming Feast and Meet-and-Greet on Thursday night [$1,000] Moreover, for those of you who are U.S. taxpayers, your donation to the HP4GU Nimbus - 2003 sponsorship may be tax-deductible. HP Education Fanon, Inc., the company created to oversee these periodic recurring symposia, has been granted tax-exempt 501(c)3 status as an educational organization. That means your contribution carries the same advantages to you as a donation to your local charity of choice. We hope you will be part of the only event to grow out of the excellent, deep, shocking, and hilarious conversations you've enjoyed online. Be part of the vision shared by list member, elf, geist, and moderator alike. Even if you can't attend - even if you will - you have a chance to help make Harry Potter history. With your help, we can continue to prove that HP4GU is one of the best HP communities around - on the Web, or in person. With your help, that reputation will only be heightened, through the contact with and exchange between fans and academics and professionals who are equally enamoured of the books and all they represent. Plus, you'll be helping to create an amazing reality which for some will reinforce - or *create* - longstanding friendships and new communities. To make a donation, simply send funds via paypal to: hpfgu-donate at hp2003.org Or, if you prefer, you may send your donation (whether in US funds or other currency) to: Harry Potter Symposium - 2003 PO Box 18769 Rochester, NY 14618-0769 We hope that whether you can join us or not, you will consider making a contribution to show your support - not just for this year's event, but to ensure the future of any other similar conferences brought to you on behalf of *your* email list: HPforGrownups. Yours in anticipation of Nimbus - 2003, The HP4GU Moderators P.S. Don't forget, only $5 from you will do the trick! Follow this link (http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/nimbus-2003) to contribute to a Nimbus - 2003 Symposium Sponsorship today! From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Apr 27 19:48:01 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 27 Apr 2003 19:48:01 -0000 Subject: File - ADMIN OoP Spoilers.txt Message-ID: <1051472881.45180944.56877.m12@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56285 Subject: ADMIN: New OOP: prefix and spoiler policy Greetings from Hexquarters! As we all count down the days until the release of OoP, the Moderator Team has been huddled at Hexquarters, all of the entrances securely bolted and towels stuffed under the cracks beneath the doors. Nothing, we vowed, must disturb our careful deliberations and detailed preparations for This Blessed Event. Finally, the Mods have something to show for their hard work. We have decided how we will handle the issue of spoilers for the OoP release. Our view is that anyone who comes to a HP discussion group around the release of OoP really should expect to encounter spoilers. Lots and lots of spoilers. For that reason, we have decided *not* to require list members to use spoiler space at all. Instead, we are introducing a new prefix for subject headers, which will give members fair warning that the post contains OoP spoilers. Beginning today, we would like members to use the "OOP" prefix for any post to any of our lists that contains spoilers for OoP. For example, an appropriate subject header might be, "OOP: Harry, Sirius and Azkaban." Subject headers should not, of course, contain spoilers themselves -- "OOP: Sirius Dies At Azkaban!" rather defeats the point of the OoP prefix. Please begin using the new "OOP" prefix on all of our lists -- especially the main list and OT-Chatter -- beginning today. And remember, if you have any comments about any OoP release issues, holler at us at: hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com Counting down to June 21st The Administration Team From trisha.masen at verizon.net Sun Apr 27 19:47:09 2003 From: trisha.masen at verizon.net (Trisha Masen) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 15:47:09 -0400 Subject: More on Dursleys Message-ID: <000a01c30cf5$cad62ae0$0100a8c0@s0023453270> No: HPFGUIDX 56286 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > Something that just hit me as I was re-reading the beginning of PS/SS > to doublecheck another tidbit. > > Why on earth did the Durseleys take Harry in? Why not just ship him > off to an orphanage, or call the proper authorities, pretend you have > no clue who the kid is, and send him into the system. and later... > Why did Dumbledore allow the abuse, emotional and physical, of Harry > to continue? and later... > And the Dursleys are just too earthy a people not to raise their > hands to Harry. > > As has been pointed out, it's damned lucky Harry didn't grow up to be > a serial killer, being locked in a cupboard for 10 years and made to > be a slave. Dumbledore, to my way of thinking, took an awful chance, > letting that continue. and later.. > And lastly, I don't believe for a second that the Dursleys have done > Dudley any favors. --- Elisabeth replied: >Whoa! I like to think of Rowling's description of Harry's life with the Dursleys as being as fantastical as his life at Hogwarts, but without the magic. Clearly, penning a child into a cupboard, feeding him only bread and cheese, and throwing frying pans at him are all horrible forms of child abuse, but these are still children's books. My point, and I do have one, is that I don't think that Harry's life is meant to be taken seriously in any form--his mistreatment (and arguably that of Dudley's) at the hands of Vernon and Petunia are exaggerated to be funny--this is, after all, fantasy!! =)> Me: I think you're downplaying the abuse by the Dursleys. I mean, these are children's books, but they're multi-layered as well. The target audience may be nine to twelve-year-olds, but adults read them obsessively (I mean, we're on this list, aren't we?). If anything, I don't think the Dursleys' mistreatment is exaggerated, I think it's downplayed: (1) If JKR actually wrote a detailed description of the abuse, she'd scare her target audience. (2) The books are multi-layered and have sucked adults into their clutches. Therefore, it makes sense that JKR would write about Harry's abuse in such a way that older teens and adults could read the subtext, but the target audience would not be overly frightened. (3) These books are written from Harry's POV. I think that in Harry's mind, the Dursleys' abuse is just second nature. Because he expects it (by now) and the books are from his POV, we read it as run-of-the-mill, so to speak. (4) Harry's life at Hogwarts is a whole new world for him. He doesn't usually run comparisons of it to life at the Dursleys, but it does say something that he would rather stay in a place where he can be mocked, ridiculed, and shunned rather than with the Dursleys (GoF at Christmas). ~Trisha Masen~ Visit my home page and website [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Apr 27 21:46:18 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:46:18 -0000 Subject: More on Dursleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56287 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > > ...edited.... > > Why on earth did the Durseleys take Harry in? Why not just ship him > off to an orphanage, or call the proper authorities, > > ...edited... > > Darrin bboy_mn: I think it could be something as simple as "What would the neighbors think?". The Dursleys put a lot of stock in their image. They like to look good and impress the neighbors. So I don't think they would have wanted to take any chance that the neighbors would find out that they had turned away a family member especially if the family member was a helpless baby. They certainly couldn't say they couldn't afford it because they go to great lengths to impress people with how successful they are. One could ask, "How would the neighbors ever know?". But Harry was on the doorstep overnight. Neighbors working the night shift could have returned home and say him there. When Petunia came out the next morning, she screamed at the sight; I'm sure that would have roused the neighbors curiousity. It may have taken them a few days to decide what to do, during that time people may have found out. So, I find it hard to believe they could have shipped Harry off without a single soul knowing about it. It's easy to speculate that there might have been something in the letter that Dumbledore left too. It could be that he made it very clear that if Harry wasn't in the Dursley's care that there was an element of danger. How far that element of danger extends is a little unclear. I also speculate that there could have been some intimidation in the form of 'take care of this kid, or else...', or some type of incentive along the line of 'take care of this kid and we will give you...". Regardless, I am dying to know what was in that letter. Just a thought. bboy_mn From bard7696 at aol.com Sun Apr 27 22:13:11 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 22:13:11 -0000 Subject: More on Dursleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56288 > > bboy_mn: > > I think it could be something as simple as "What would the neighbors > think?". > > The Dursleys put a lot of stock in their image. They like to look good > and impress the neighbors. So I don't think they would have wanted to > take any chance that the neighbors would find out that they had turned > away a family member especially if the family member was a helpless > baby. Agreed, they wouldn't want people thinking they turned away a family member, but it would be easy enough to lie and say they have no clue who the kid is and their doorstep was chosen at random. Maybe some neighbors would suspect -- perhaps they would assume the kid was some illegitimate son of Vernon's -- that there was more to it, but I bet the Dursleys get away with it. > It's easy to speculate that there might have been something in the > letter that Dumbledore left too. It could be that he made it very > clear that if Harry wasn't in the Dursley's care that there was an > element of danger. How far that element of danger extends is a little > unclear. I also speculate that there could have been some intimidation > in the form of 'take care of this kid, or else...', or some type of > incentive along the line of 'take care of this kid and we will give > you...". > My guess is that it was a mix of the carrot and the stick. Take care of this kid or we will turn you into dung beetles, but for your trouble, we'll pay you very well. And of course, it would be well within the Dursleys character to stow away whatever money Dumbledore gave them and pretend raising Harry was a horrible financial burden. Darrin -- Carrot and the Stick. The next big rap group. From jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu Sun Apr 27 22:16:34 2003 From: jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu (Jonathan Pessin) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 17:16:34 -0500 Subject: I Hate Snape... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56289 Severus Snape. He has been called a hero, a bastard, a spy, a double-crosser, an ugly git, and several other sobriquets besides. Some feel he's a good man who's done bad things. Others feel he's misunderstood, and that deep inside, he's a caring soul who wants what's best for his kids. Not me. I think he's a heartless jerk who takes entirely too much pleasure in the pain he gives his students. Why, you may ask, do I show such bile against a fictional character? The intensity of this attitude of mine can be traced to a single comment made by Snape. From GoF, US Paperback edition, pp. 299-300: Ron... forced Hermione to show Snape her teeth - she was doing her best to hide them with her hands, though this was difficult as they had now grown down past her collar... Snape looked coldly at Hermione, then said, "I see no difference." This comment, more than any other action the readers have seen Snape commit, shows a level of heartlessness totally unbecoming a teacher OR a worker for the Light. One could justify many of his other actions toward the students. He mistreats Neville because he feels that he is an unworthy student and a disruption to his class. Harry, Snape may feel, is a glory-hound, whose thoughtless grandstanding endangers Harry himself as well as others. Ron, in his ceaseless and distracting conversations with Harry, disrupts class as well. All of these, while perhaps not sufficient in OUR minds, might be seen as Snape to be enough justification for his actions toward these characters. The insult against Hermione, however, is totally unprovoked, unnecessary, and vicious. Hermione is an intelligent, hard-working, and respectful student. She has never, to my knowledge, caused disruptions in class. Her only crime in this scene is having been in the wrong place at the wrong time, yet Snape takes it upon himself to maliciously insult something which is beyond her control. Unlike some of Snape's other actions, this shows a total lack of concern for the students' emotional health and self-respect. "But," you may say, "Hermione had helped attack him in the previous book. In 'The Servant of Lord Voldemort,' (PoA ch. 19, US Paperback page 361), she helps Harry and Ron cast the triple Expelliarmus which threw him against the wall and knocked him out. He's justified in disliking her, too.' The difficulty with this theory is that later in the book (PoA ch. 21, US Paperback pgs. 386-387), Snape claims that the children were under the Confundus Charm, and thus, I assume, not accountable for their actions. You can't have it both ways. Either Snape believed his comment, which means that he has no grounds for his cruelty toward Hermione, or he didn't believe it, which means that he knew that Sirius was innocent and was willing to condemn him to a fate worse than death anyway. THAT, in my opinion, is just as evil as the cruelty toward children, if not even more so. During my formative years, I was subjected to all manner of verbal abuse from fellow students. I have intimate personal knowledge of exactly HOW MUCH a single word has the ability to hurt. Luckily for me, however, the adults around me were all supportive and kind. I can only imagine how scarring it would be to receive this sort of abuse not only from one's classmates (and Hermione is most definitely not the most popular person in her class) AND one's teacher. I, for one, am truly happy that Hermione is part of the trio; if she were not, we couldn't foresee what depths this comment may have driven her to. Yes, I know that this was only one remark. One remark may not have the power to destroy a student's life, or to cause a complete emotional collapse, but this one remark, I think, provides a peek into Snape's inner soul. It is a disturbing view. I theorize, from Snape's appearance, character, actions, and demeanor, that he himself was once the victim of childhood taunts. I could picture him among the students of my early years, and I can say quite certainly that his peers would have roasted him alive - at least, if they were anything like children in MY day. Despite his own possible experience with verbal abuse, abuse which led to much of his character today, Snape STILL feels that he has the right to abuse the students under his care, and I don't care what other actions he may take, that is something I just cannot respect. Now, I'm not saying that he's evil. Snape might truly be working for the Light. He might even be helping Dumbledore to work off a life-debt, or just out of good old-fashioned pragmaticism. I don't deny that Snape may be a good character, or a character who is working for good. He may even give the final sacrifice to defeat Voldemort in the end, for all I know. I still hate him, though. Snape could kill Voldemort with his own hands and hand his head to Dumbledore on a silver platter, and I would still hate him - just because of 4 simple words. "I see no difference." -Hobbit_guy, who's glad to get this out in the open. S.L.Y.T.H.E.R.I.N.S. post coming, I promise! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You haven't been getting into the Gaffer's home brew again, have you?" "No... Well, yes, but that's beside the point." -Frodo and Bilbo Baggins, Fellowship of the Rings Extended Edition DVD From bard7696 at aol.com Sun Apr 27 22:25:10 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 22:25:10 -0000 Subject: I Hate Snape... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56290 Hobbit boy, opening himself up to the Snape-lovers out here, wrote: > > Now, I'm not saying that he's evil. Snape might truly be working > for the Light. He might even be helping Dumbledore to work off a > life-debt, or just out of good old-fashioned pragmaticism. I don't > deny that Snape may be a good character, or a character who is working > for good. He may even give the final sacrifice to defeat Voldemort in > the end, for all I know. I still hate him, though. Snape could kill > Voldemort with his own hands and hand his head to Dumbledore on a silver > platter, and I would still hate him - just because of 4 simple words. > > "I see no difference." > > -Hobbit_guy, who's glad to get this out in the open. > S.L.Y.T.H.E.R.I.N.S. post coming, I promise! Last year, when my good friend Jenny from Ravenclaw and I were in a knockdown, drag-out debate about Hagrid's worth as a teacher, I brought this quote up when saying that Snape is the worst teacher in school. I still believe that. Put it this way, if my teenage daughter, through no fault of her own, got injured, and instead of taking her to the school nurse, the teacher insulted her appearance in front of her peers, I'd not only get that teacher fired, I'd sue the district for six figures AND make a point of traveling to other districts that wanted to hire the scumbag and talk them out of it. My guess has always been that Snape puts down Hermione at every chance because he's afraid she will someday outstrip his achievements. He's one of those teachers scared of smart students, that they might make him look bad by asking a question he doesn't know the answer to. Keep in mind, she figured out his oh-so-clever logic puzzle in about 10 seconds and got 50 points in front of the whole school for it. Remember, Percy knew that the giant chess set was McGonagall's, so why wouldn't people know that Hermione beat Snape's logic puzzle? But... I will say this. Snape MIGHT have to be playing a role in order to keep Draco, Crabbe, Goyle and any other Slytherins whose dads are death-eaters from getting too suspicious. If he started coddling the Gryffindors, Draco and his Merry Band of Morons might get suspcious. How to redeem that one line? It's corny, but I would like to see, sometime before the Big Showdown, Snape get a moment with Hermione. "Miss Granger, I have had to portray a certain... image for the greater good, but you should know that a teacher hopes that one student in a generation is like you." Or something less sappy. But you get the idea. Darrin -- Got Hobbit's back for when the Snape-lovers come out and flame him. From t.forch at mail.dk Sun Apr 27 22:36:26 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 00:36:26 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] I Hate Snape... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030428003123.00d3a400@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 56291 At 17:16 27-04-03 -0500, you wrote: >Severus Snape. He has been called a hero, a bastard, a spy, a >double-crosser, an ugly git, and several other sobriquets besides. Some >feel he's a good man who's done bad things. Others feel he's >misunderstood, and that deep inside, he's a caring soul who wants what's >best for his kids. > >Not me. I think he's a heartless jerk who takes entirely too much >pleasure in the pain he gives his students. Why, you may ask, do I show >such bile against a fictional character? The intensity of this attitude >of mine can be traced to a single comment made by Snape. From GoF, US >Paperback edition, pp. 299-300: I agree - and I can even refer to the warm feeling of having Rowling's own words to back it up. From a talk-show on WBUR "the Connection" on 12th October 1999: http://www.hogwarts-library.net/reference/interviews/19991012_TheConnection.html#part13 JKR: OK. Snape is the - er - very sadistic teacher Loosely based on a teacher I myself had, I have to say. Erm .. I think it ... Children are very aware - and we ... we're kidding ourselves if we don't think that they are - that teachers do sometimes abuse their power and this particular teacher /does/ abuse his power. He is not a - he is not a particularly pleasant person at all. /However/, everyone should keep their eye on Snape, I'll just say that, because there's more to him than meets the eye, and you will find out part of what I'm talking about if you read book four. "very sadistic teacher" "this particular teacher /does/ abuse his power" and "he is not a particularly pleasant person at all" I think that especially the "very sadistic teacher" part fits well with the sentiments you express ;-) Troels From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 27 22:44:01 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 15:44:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: More on Dursleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030427224401.92211.qmail@web20007.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56292 --- Steve wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, > "darrin_burnett" > wrote: > > > > ...edited.... > > > > Why on earth did the Durseleys take Harry in? Why > not just ship him > > off to an orphanage, or call the proper > authorities, > > > > ...edited... > > > > Darrin > > > bboy_mn: > > I think it could be something as simple as "What > would the neighbors > think?". > > The Dursleys put a lot of stock in their image. They > like to look good > and impress the neighbors. So I don't think they > would have wanted to > take any chance that the neighbors would find out > that they had turned > away a family member especially if the family member > was a helpless > baby. They certainly couldn't say they couldn't > afford it because they > go to great lengths to impress people with how > successful they are. > > One could ask, "How would the neighbors ever know?". > But Harry was on > the doorstep overnight. Neighbors working the night > shift could have > returned home and say him there. When Petunia came > out the next > morning, she screamed at the sight; I'm sure that > would have roused > the neighbors curiousity. It may have taken them a > few days to decide > what to do, during that time people may have found > out. So, I find it > hard to believe they could have shipped Harry off > without a single > soul knowing about it. The neighbors might know the baby was there, but there would by no way for them to know the child was family. They'd just think someone dumped a baby on their neighbors, and that the Dursley's did the right thing by turned him over to social services. And I sure hope none of the neighbors saw the baby on the stoop. It would have been pretty bad of them not to go pick him up or knock on the door or even call the Dursleys. I still think there must be something in the letter that convinced them. ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From alison.williams at virgin.net Sun Apr 27 22:42:29 2003 From: alison.williams at virgin.net (Alison Williams) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 23:42:29 +0100 Subject: The Living Philosopher's Stone (Was: Re: The Spiritual Symbolism of HP) In-Reply-To: <1051254892.3709.25434.m3@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000001c30d0e$64707260$c31b0150@chris> No: HPFGUIDX 56293 Bill, Thank you! Thank you very much for condensing this discussion. It has been fascinating reading. I have been trying hard to find something new to contribute, but it is not easy as so much work has already gone into this. I do have an attempt - apologies if this has been covered elsewhere in there and I missed it. I thought I spotted a possible piece of evidence from what I am just about getting used to referring to as 'canon'. Although this is not something that I really wanted to find evidence for - it relates to the prediction of Harry's death by beheading before the end of book seven. This is from the end of PoA (p.295-296 of the UK adult edition). "Seconds later they heard footsteps quite close by. Dumbledore, Macnair, Fudge and the old committee member were making their way up to the castle. 'Right after we'd gone down into the passage' said Hermione 'If *only* Dumbledore had come with us...' 'Macnair and Fudge would've come too' said Harry bitterly 'I bet you anything Fudge would have told Macnair to murder Sirius on the spot...'" So, the idea of a person (Sirius) being killed by the executioner sent for Buckbeak is not unthinkable for either Harry, who said this, or Hermione who didn't contradict him. Of course this doesn't *prove* anything but it is a reference to beheading as a possible sentence for people as well as Hippogriffs. The Ministry is, at best, ambivalent about its role by the end of GoF and Fudge does seem rather like a Pilate figure - I can imagine him washing his hands of the consequences of actions forced upon him. Another point (stop me, I'm getting carried away...) carrying on from points which were made by someone in all that earlier discussion 1) eternal life in the spiritual/Christian sense is not the same as - in fact it is the opposite of - living forever in Voldemort's sense, and 2) the resurrection is vital to the Christian story *but* (new point) there is a second vital event which is the ascension (the 'next big adventure'?) Where am I going with this? Towards a happy ending? Harry reunited with his parents after sacrificing his life for the WW? Apologies if i have strayed too far up Symbolic Alley! Alison From the_fox01 at hotmail.com Sun Apr 27 22:47:12 2003 From: the_fox01 at hotmail.com (The Fox) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 18:47:12 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I Hate Snape... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56294 From: "darrin_burnett" >Hobbit boy, opening himself up to the Snape-lovers out here, wrote: >>Now, I'm not saying that he's evil. Snape might truly be working for the >>Light. He might even be helping Dumbledore to work off a life-debt, or >>just out of good old-fashioned pragmaticism. I don't deny that Snape may >>be a good character, or a character who is working for good. He may even >>give the final sacrifice to defeat Voldemort in the end, for all I know. >>I still hate him, though. Snape could kill Voldemort with his own hands >>and hand his head to Dumbledore on a silver platter, and I would still >>hate him - just because of 4 simple words. >> >>"I see no difference." > >Last year, when my good friend Jenny from Ravenclaw and I were in a >knockdown, drag-out debate about Hagrid's worth as a teacher, I brought >this quote up when saying that Snape is the worst teacher in school. I >still believe that. Ah, ah -- we have no idea about Professor Sinistra, do we? She (I assume it's a she) might be even worse. :-) >My guess has always been that Snape puts down Hermione at every chance >because he's afraid she will someday outstrip his achievements. He's one of >those teachers scared of smart students, that they might make him look bad >by asking a question he doesn't know the answer to. My own feeling is that Snape was a lot like Hermione when he was a kid -- few friends, not particularly attractive, head and shoulders above the rest of the class academically -- and resents like hell that she doesn't appear to be suffering with it the way he did. There's not a lot of evidence for this, I'll grant, but let's think: Snape is a young guy. He was at school with James Potter, making him about twenty years older than Harry -- so in PS/SS, he's maybe thirty-one, and he's been teaching at Hogwarts for at least a year (because Percy knows him), but probably much longer. He may, at that time, be the youngest teacher on the staff; he's almost certainly the youngest Head of House. (We don't know how old Professors Sprout and Flitwick are, now that I think about it, do we? But Professor McGonagall is easily twice Snape's age.) And yet there's no question of his qualifications, academically speaking -- in fact, he could be teaching Defense Against the Dark Arts *or* Potions. (This is a less-solid point, since presumably if he were as qualified to teach DADA as he thinks he is, Dumbledore would consider him for the gig one of these days.) To have gotten where he is as quickly as he did, Snape must have an uncommon intelligence. As does Hermione. But she has friends who care about her (as early as Halloween of first year, when Harry and Ron save her from the troll); he was lured almost into striking range of a werewolf. And so forth. Whatever else he may be, Severus Snape is a bitter, bitter man. Not that this excuses his cruelty to Hermione. Everything else he does and says, to her, to Harry, to Neville, I can either overlook (or at least take with a grain of salt, coming to us, as it does, from the POV of a teenager) or explain away, but "I see no difference" is really, really awful. The best I can come up with is that when she runs away to the hospital wing, he doesn't stop her and insist that she stay through class -- which isn't much. >How to redeem that one line? It's corny, but I would like to see, sometime >before the Big Showdown, Snape get a moment with Hermione. > >"Miss Granger, I have had to portray a certain... image for the greater >good, but you should know that a teacher hopes that one student in a >generation is like you." [choke] [g] >Or something less sappy. But you get the idea. Indeed. ;-) Fox ... Come on, Nature Just because I don't feel weak Don't mean I feel so strong. -- the Proclaimers .............................. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Sun Apr 27 23:31:33 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 16:31:33 -0700 Subject: Generosity Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56295 I was just rereading a post made by Carolyn a few days ago. She brought up the point that Ron's ability to pass his exams in CoS would be severely compromised with a damaged wand, and that Snape and McGonagall, if not other professors, were both aware of it's unreliability/wackiness. Now, it's late, and I'm hoping beyond hope that the films haven't totally ruined my memory... this post made me wonder why McGonagall would drop a huge amount of money on a new racing broom for Harry but not a couple Galleons on a new wand for Ron. She's certainly not obligated, IMO, it's just strange is all. And what about Harry, with his vaultful of Galleons? I call your attention to page 94 (American) of GoF (the end of Bagman and Crouch, Chapter 7) === "Omnioculars," said the saleswizard eagerly. "You can replay action... slow everythig down... and they flash up a play-by-play breakdown if you need it. Bargain--ten galleons each." === Btw, Harry's wand cost 7 Galleons--just for reference. After Harry purchases three pairs of omnioculars, and Ron proceeds to turn red. "[Ron] was always touchy about the fact that Harry, who had inherited a small fortune from his parents, had much more money than he did." Sure he's have been touchy, and later "pays him back" (with leprechaun gold) but Harry could always have done it as a Christmas present or somesuch... I need a snack, so toodles--hope it makes sense! Dan, who may be not too out there and wacky post-lurk at 2am. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From JessaDrow at aol.com Sun Apr 27 23:31:44 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 19:31:44 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: More on Dursleys Message-ID: <113.2272f1e1.2bddc260@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56296 In a message dated 4/27/03 6:45:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rsteph1981 at yahoo.com writes: > I still think there must be something in the letter > that convinced them. > Probably something akin too.. 'Dear Mr. and Mrs. Dursley; This is your nephew Harry Potter. Lily and James were murdered in an attempt to save his life, it's now up to you to take care of him till he turns eleven, where we will claim him. Failure to do so will bring down a wrath upon you and your family from the entire wizards community.' Hee.. :) ~Faith~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From william.truderung at sympatico.ca Sun Apr 27 23:35:36 2003 From: william.truderung at sympatico.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 23:35:36 -0000 Subject: The Living Philosopher's Stone (Was: Re: The Spiritual Symbolism of HP) In-Reply-To: <000001c30d0e$64707260$c31b0150@chris> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56297 Alison: >>This is from the end of PoA (p.295-296 of the UK adult edition). "Seconds later they heard footsteps quite close by. Dumbledore, Macnair, Fudge and the old committee member were making their way up to the castle. 'Right after we'd gone down into the passage' said Hermione 'If *only* Dumbledore had come with us...' 'Macnair and Fudge would've come too' said Harry bitterly 'I bet you anything Fudge would have told Macnair to murder Sirius on the spot...'" So, the idea of a person (Sirius) being killed by the executioner sent for Buckbeak is not unthinkable for either Harry, who said this, or Hermione who didn't contradict him. Of course this doesn't *prove* anything but it is a reference to beheading as a possible sentence for people as well as Hippogriffs. Me: You know, the more I read, the more likely it seems that something like decapitation will in fact happen to Harry. Hans' suggestion that the HP series seems to be related to the Hermetic text, 'The Chymical Wedding of Christian Rosenkreutz', is looking more and more plausible to me. The resemblances between the two are very close. Given what JKR has revealed, I believe that she has. We know that she is a practicing Christian: ****** http://www.cbc.ca/programs/sites/hottype_rowlingcomplete.html E: When you talk about dealing with death and loss in the books, does this come out of your own - you've had loss with the loss of your mother - did it come out of a personal spirituality? I mean, are you are religious person? Does your spirituality come from a certain place? JK: I do believe in God. That seems to offend the South Carolinians more than almost anything else. I think they would find it well that is my limited experience, that they have more of a problem with me believing in God than they would have if I was an unrepentant atheist. E: You do believe in God. JK: Yeah. Yeah. E: In magic and JK: Magic in the sense in which it happens in my books, no, I don't believe. I don't believe in that. No. No. This is so frustrating. Again, there is so much I would like to say, and come back when I've written book seven. But then maybe you won't need to even say it 'cause you'll have found it out anyway. You'll have read it. E: But in your own life, I mean, are you a churchgoer? JK: (Nods) Mmm hmm. Well I go more than to weddings and christenings. Yes, I do. ****** And given the abundance of Hermetic symbols in the HP books, I suspect that she is indeed familiar with this work. (By the way, I do not believe that the name `Hermione', a feminine version of `Hermes', for one of Harry's closest friends is a coincidence.) The Chymical Wedding is divided into seven days, compared to the seven years of the HP books. Here is a day-to-year comparison of some of the similarities between the first four days of `Chymical Wedding', and the first four years of the HP books. First Day: - CRC is living in cramped accommodations, with minimal food - a terrible storm arises - during the storm, an `otherworldly' being appears, and delivers a letter to him - the letter is heavy, sealed with a curious symbol with a Latin phrase, and written in gold letters - upon opening, the message is an invitation to attend a wedding, which CRC was at birth entitled to attend - near the end of the first day, CRC descends (in a dream) into a dark dungeon, containing a peculiar stone - CRC is presented with seven `challenges'; six inside the dungeon, and one at the entrance above it, and during the final challenge inside the dungeon receives a wound to the head from the stone, but is rescued by his mentor, a wise old man The seven HP challenges: Fluffy (entrance above the dungeon); the Devil's Snare; the Keys; the Chess Game; the Troll; the Potions; the Mirror (inside the dungeon) Second Day: - CRC encounters, and shares food with, a snow-white dove, which is then attacked and chased by a filthy black raven - CRC attempts to rescue the dove, and near the end of the day, passes through a series of three portals, interspersed with a series of four tests - CRC meets the Virgin after passing through the second portal, and accompanies her through the third and last portal to a room in the Castle - CRC is struck speechless by beautiful music, which seems to come from no human source, and is associated with the Virgin The three HP portals: the sink in the bathroom; the door to the Chamber of Secrets itself; the squeeze through the fallen rocks and the flight back to the bathroom The four HP tests: Aragog; Lockhart; the Basilisk; Tom Riddle Although the obvious candidate for the Virgin would be Ginny (VIRGINia?), I think that Fawkes is a closer match. CRC is only able to pass through the third portal with the Virgin's help, and she is also associated with the music. Later in the story, her name is revealed to be Alchimia, alchemy ? a process of transformation through death and rebirth. Ginny seems to match more closely with the white dove, which had taken a liking to CRC from the beginning, and was attacked by a symbol of dissolution and destruction. Third Day: - one of CRC's newly met companions, thought unworthy and contemptable, who had been bound with chains in a dark place, is measured on a balance and passes, and joins CRC in friendship - CRC is himself measured and also passes, and then sets an undeserving person free. - a majestic magical beast wearing a collar, bowing with its front legs, is involved in the story, and then leaves amid great joy Fourth Day: - near the start of the day, a ceremony involving a Goblet takes place - CRC encounters a skull, with a serpent entwined - CRC attends a grand dance, with four King/Queen pairs (three `official' pairs and one `unofficial' pair) in the place of honour - the day ends with death, and resurrection As Hans has pointed out, the deaths on this day are carried out by decapitation. ****** If anybody wishes to read the `Chymical Wedding', here are some websites: For the 1459 German version: http://home.t-online.de/home/lapsitexillis/chym.htm For a modern English translation: http://www.levity.com/alchemy/chymwed1.html http://www.crcsite.org/wedding1.htm For an English commentary and guide: http://www.crcsite.org/wedguide.htm ****** Bill From bard7696 at aol.com Sun Apr 27 23:55:03 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 23:55:03 -0000 Subject: I Hate Snape... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56298 Fox wrote: > And yet there's no question of his qualifications, academically speaking -- > in fact, he could be teaching Defense Against the Dark Arts *or* Potions. > (This is a less-solid point, since presumably if he were as qualified to > teach DADA as he thinks he is, Dumbledore would consider him for the gig one > of these days.) Actually, Snape got his facts wrong when he subbed for Lupin in DADA class. He said the Kappa was from Mongolia, but in the school board, Fantastic Beasts, they are from Japan and the "note" from Harry in the margin makes fun of Snape. I thought that was interesting, for JKR to put in another book that Snape didn't know his DADA. My own theory is that Dumbledore keeps Snape away from DADA for the same reason you don't have an alcoholic bartending at your wedding. Temptation too great. > . > > >How to redeem that one line? It's corny, but I would like to see, sometime before the Big Showdown, Snape get a moment with Hermione. > > >"Miss Granger, I have had to portray a certain... image for the greater good, but you should know that a teacher hopes that one student in a generation is like you." > > [choke] > [g] > > >Or something less sappy. But you get the idea. > > Indeed. ;-) > > Fox Yeah, yeah, yeah. But Snape needs some kind of redemption and so far, he hasn't gotten it. Yeah, he's on the side of the angels, but that could very well be because he sniffed out which way the wind was blowing and cast his lot with the winning side. And his treatment of Hermione could be because, like Malfoy and V- Mort, he hates Muggle-borns too. Maybe he wasn't ready to commit genocide, and that's why he switched sides, but he sure doesn't want a Muggle-born getting top marks. Darrin From bard7696 at aol.com Sun Apr 27 23:57:45 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 23:57:45 -0000 Subject: More on Dursleys In-Reply-To: <113.2272f1e1.2bddc260@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56299 Faith: > Probably something akin too.. 'Dear Mr. and Mrs. Dursley; > > This is your nephew Harry Potter. Lily and James were murdered in an attempt > to save his life, it's now up to you to take care of him till he turns > eleven, where we will claim him. Failure to do so will bring down a wrath > upon you and your family from the entire wizards community.' > > > Hee.. :) > Good assumption, EXCEPT, if the Dursleys had known the wizards were coming for Harry on his 11th birthday, one would think they would have had the bags packed, waiting for someone to come get the little financial burden. No, I think they figured they'd have him until his 18th birthday, at which point they'd have chucked him out on his ear. But the wizard wrath part makes sense. Darrin From JessaDrow at aol.com Mon Apr 28 00:04:59 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 20:04:59 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: More on Dursleys Message-ID: <11.fe60565.2bddca2b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56300 In a message dated 4/27/03 7:59:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bard7696 at aol.com writes: > Good assumption, EXCEPT, if the Dursleys had known the wizards were > coming for Harry on his 11th birthday, one would think they would > have had the bags packed, waiting for someone to come get the little > financial burden. > They knew all about Hogsworth, I don't think they didn't count on him being called. I think they assumed they had a say in the matter, which they obviously didn't. ~Faith~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From meboriqua at aol.com Mon Apr 28 01:39:48 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 01:39:48 -0000 Subject: I Hate Snape... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56301 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > My own theory is that Dumbledore keeps Snape away from DADA for the > same reason you don't have an alcoholic bartending at your wedding. > Temptation too great.> "Keeps Snape away"? Who says Snape wants to be DADA professor, anyway? He's damned good at Potions and seems to enjoy it as well; his opening monologue to his first years made me want to be in the class, regardless of Snape's attitude. All we can say about Snape and the DADA position is that the *students* of Hogwarts have heard that Snape wants the job. Until I hear Snape or Dumbledore confirm that, I won't believe it. I love how JKR can create a rumor within her own writing and convince so many of us it is true. I still can't say Snape is the worst of the worst, though. It's fine and understandable to hate him, because he *is* an asshole. Maybe he should even be fired. It doesn't mean, though, that he can't teach what he knows effectively. It just means he needs some mentoring. Hagrid needs a lot more than that, though, but there's no need to get me started. --jenny from ravenclaw How about this name for a band: The Death Stoppers ********************************************************* From catlady at wicca.net Mon Apr 28 02:00:50 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 02:00:50 -0000 Subject: Generosity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56302 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Dan "Danger Mouse" wrote: > this post made me wonder why McGonagall would drop a huge amount of > money on a new racing broom for Harry We don't KNOW that McGonagall paid for the Nimbus 2000. She may have gotten Dumbledore's permission to pay for it with money from Harry's vault (I'm sure that the wizarding world considers Dumbledore to be more of a responsible guardian for Harry and not the Dursleys). Someone on the list (sorry, I don't remember who) once suggested that Hogwarts pays for the first Quidditch broomstick for each student who gets on their House team, and buys them the best broomstick currently available to the general public. But if they break that first broomstick and need to replace, or just want to upgrade to the Nimbus 2001, then they have to pay for it themselves or get a rich alum to buy it for them. If McGonagall DID pay for the Nimbus 2000, she had the selfish motive of wanting HER team to win. It was as much for the team as for Harry. And she seems to me to be much more inclined to do something extra for Harry, whom she pities for being an orphan, than for Ron, who has perfectly good parents of his own. > but not a couple Galleons on a new wand for Ron. She's certainly > not obligated, IMO, it's just strange is all. IIRC in the book, it seems like none of the professors commented on Ron's broken wand. It has been suggested on list (I would give proper credits but my memory has failed me) that they are trying to teach Ron the lesson that he has to ASK for help. He could ask his parents or his older brother Bill or his friend Harry, or if he asked McGonagall, there might be a fund available for buying replacement wands for students who broke theirs. > And what about Harry, with his vaultful of Galleons? Harry knows how touchy Ron is about money and accepting gifts (as shown in the scene you quote) and he has trouble figuring out how to give Ron anything except on the appointed occasions of birthday and Christmas. He can't give Ron a wand for Christmas because Christmas presents have to be a surprise, while wands have to be fitted to the wizard. If he thought of giving Ron a Gift Certificate from Ollivander's, he probably rejected the idea because how could Ron get to Ollivander's? They're only second-years and have to stay on campus. From william.truderung at sympatico.ca Mon Apr 28 02:08:44 2003 From: william.truderung at sympatico.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 02:08:44 -0000 Subject: The Living Philosopher's Stone (Was: Re: The Spiritual Symbolism of HP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56303 What about the fifth day of 'Chymical Wedding'? When CRC arises in the morning, he explores the castle, and arrives at a strange door. Opening it, he passes through a very dark passage to an open door, leading to a place of death. CRC is terrified. Passing through it he observes the sepulchre of the goddess Venus, within which he witnesses things not meant to be seen by mortals. Exiting from the door, still frightened, he is discovered by Cupid, Venus' son, who draws blood from his hand. Cupid informs CRC that he shall soon end his days. CRC then witnesses a ceremony, led by the Virgin, involving 42 men and an image of a Phoenix. He then passes over water on a ship, and the wound on CRC's hand is directly compared to the wound on his head, from his dream on the first day. They reach the Tower of Olympus, where CRC engages in various potions- related activities. The day ends with CRC observing seven flames passing over the water onto the top of the Tower, which frightens him greatly. What are we to make of this? I find it interesting how this matched with several posts that I and others made at FictionAlly Park, before this thread started. ****** http://www.fictionalley.org/fictionalleypark/forums/showthread.php? s=053961e35d2e4f9c9441af1fdfd2c28b&threadid=30485 Post #1 Bill Is the 'Whole New Area' the 'Land of the Dead'? Like many people, I read the `summary' of Order of the Phoenix with great interest. One line in particular caught my attention, because it seems to pull together several facts that had already been revealed by JKR in various interviews: >>But at night it's even worse, because then he dreams of a single door in a silent corridor. And this door is somehow more terrifying than every other nightmare combined.<< The following quotes are concerned with the fear of death and the origin of ghosts, and with Harry's discovery of `a whole new area, a magical world'. http://radio.cbc.ca/programs/thismo...ing_001023.html Q: I do hear that in the fifth volume, that's about to come out, that Harry is going to have to deal with death. Rowling: Harry has already dealt with death, of course. He lost his parents very young, in book four he witnessed a murder, which is a very disturbing thing. So this is not news to anybody who has been following the series, that death is a central theme of the books. But, yes, I think it would be fair to say that in book five he has to examine exactly what death means, in even closer ways. But I don't think people who have been following the series will be that surprised by that. http://www.mugglenet.com/aolchat1.shtml Q: Why do some wizards/witches become ghosts and others don't? Rowling: Another superb question, and this time I can tell you that you will find out much more about that in book five. http://www.cbc.ca/programs/sites/ho...ngcomplete.html Q: It seems like almost through your books you miss your mom and you're dealing with that conversation like Harry, just seeing the shadow but it can never come back. Rowling: Dealing with bereavement is a strong part of the books. Dealing with loss. Yes. I can't elaborate as much as I'd like to on that because I have three more books to go and this is not a sales pitch, you can get them out of the library and you don't have to buy them, I'm just saying that I will ruin future books if I elaborate on that too much. But it's a strong central theme - dealing with death, yeah, and facing up to death. Q: In one of the books Dumbledore says "Death is just the next step to a great mystery, the next great adventure" I think is the quote. Rowling: I would like to I'm not as wise as him. I would like to see it that way. And I do see it that way, in many ways. Death still frightens me, as it frightens most people. Because there's still lots I want to do, and I don't want to leave my daughter early. http://www.mugglenet.com/aolchat1.shtml Q: Can you say ANYTHING about the next book? Rowling: Yes... it probably won't be as long as book four. It will be scary. Harry finds out a lot of things he hasn't stumbled across so far. http://www.mugglenet.com/ewinterview1.shtml Q: This book is quite the wide screen epic, with the Quidditch World Cup, the arrival of rival schools, the Triwizard Tournament, the ending battle... Rowling: Everything is on a bigger scale. Q: Intentional? Rowling: Yes. It's symbolic. Harry's horizons are literally and metaphorically widening as he grows older. But also there are places in the world that I've been planning for so long and thinking about for so long that we haven't yet explored, and it's great fun. That will happen in book 5, too; we go into a whole new area, physically, an area you've never seen before, a magical world. Am I the only one who sees a pattern in these quotes? It looks to me that OotP is likely to have an important plot thread concerning Harry's nighttime journeys into the `Land of the Dead' ? possibly first in dreams, and then physically. My guess is that he starts having recurring dreams of the terrifying door in the silent corridor. Maybe, the first time he has the dream, he only sees it at a distance, but each time he dreams, it gets closer and closer, and eventually, in his dream he reaches out to open it... and wakes up. Then, when he can't sleep and is wandering around the silent, darkened castle, he stumbles across the door... Well, we'll find out in June. Bill Post #4 TeaWithVoldie Actually this has been a long theory of mine as well. I always thought that Harry might experience death for itself and enter the next dimension. And he might even discover something their to he could use for defeating the Dark Lord and even meet his parents. This is what I thought when Jk said Harry would experience a whole new Magical world that he has never set foot in. As well I have another theory. The Otherworld theory which lies behind this scary door. I think Harry will step into an Otherworld, Which is in celtic Mythology is said to be filled with magical creatures and Spirits. Some of these otherworlds are like hells and Evil spirits and creatures live there. And Guess what entails in this Celtic Myth... On the night of the 31st of October the barriers of these worlds are opened or weakened and the spirits and creatures come out. Post #7 Bill I can't believe that I forgot about another clue ? the cover of the American edition of OotP. The artist had read the book before painting it, and her other covers all had something to do with the story. So what do we have? The colour scheme is almost monochromatic blue, and the lettering for `and the Order of the Phoenix' is a whispy blue-white. This sets a mood of `spookiness' right off the bat. Harry is standing in front of three partly open doors. There may be a fourth door, just visible at the extreme left of the image. The wall that they are set in seems to be curved, but this may be some kind of visual distortion. A long row of lit candles, with blue flames, is emerging from the left-most door of the three, circling around Harry, and leaving through the central door. Harry has his wand out, and is looking behind him, upwards and to the right of our point of view. In Harry's dream, there was one door, at the end of a corridor. My guess is that Harry has passed through that door, and is in some sort of antechamber with a multitude of doors, one of which leads back to the corridor in Hogwarts, and the others leading to who-knows- where. The candles, with their blue flames, are reminiscent of the candles at Nearly Headless Nick's Deathday party, so at least two of the doors may be associated with ghosts somehow. I like TeaWithVoldy's idea that we may be dealing with an OtherWorld, which is particularly accessable on Halloween. It could be that the cover image depicts Harry's first physical passage though the door, on that day. Post #9 Bill Notice that the candles leave 'motion trails' behind them, in the same direction that their flames are trailing. I do not believe that the flames are being bent by a wind, but that the candles themselves are moving around Harry. Also, I noticed that there are no candles visible between the outer edge of the central door, and the right- hand edge of the left-hand doorway. If the candles had formed a complete circle around Harry, there should have been at least a few candles there. My best guess is that they are emerging from the left-hand doorway, moving around Harry, and leaving via the central doorway. Post #10 Bill Another thought occurred to me, about the floating candles. I suspect that they are very significant to the story. The `regular' floating candles in the Great Hall are white, with yellow flames. The floating candles in the Deathday party are black, with blue flames. And the floating candles on the American cover of OotP are white, with blue flames ? a combination of the two types, but since the colour of the flames seems to me to be more important than the colour of the candle itself, I would say that they are more alike to the Deathday candles than the regular candles. Another possible significant feature about the PotP candles is that the leave a `motion trail' behind them. This may be important. I do not recall any other object on a Harry Potter cover leaving a motion trail, even when they are clearly in motion. (I don't have the covers in front of me, however ? I'm just going by memory) Maybe they are not leaving motion trails at all, but something else. Could they be not actual, physical candles at all, but rather `ghost candles' of some sort? If I recall my mythology correctly, some cultures thought the souls of the Dead could take the form of floating candles or flames. There is a version of that in the old tales of the `swamp candles', which are supposed to hypnotise unwary travellers at night and lead them to their deaths by drowning, whereupon they become candles themselves. Tolkien included this idea in his description of the `Dead Marshes', but the idea is ancient. Could the floating candles on the cover of OotP represent the souls of the Dead? Maybe. Post #13 TeaWithVoldie Interesting stuff. I'm doing some research at the moment so bear with me. This is from an essay which explore the history, science and writings and myth of St Elmos fire. "Ghostly blue flames" which sailors said that the patron st was protecting them at sea. the fire of St Elmo The storm watch had been set, and all hands awaited the onset of the tempest that raged to windward. Rushing ahead of gale winds, heavy seas rocked the brig. Then suddenly, at the mastheads and bowsprit, ghostly blue flames leapt into the somber night, lighting the masts like candles. The atmosphere of dread anticipation split at the sight. The sailors to a man breathed a sigh of relief, for their patron saint Elmo had come to watch over the brig and see her safely through the storm. St. Elmo's Fire has long served as an omen of heavenly intervention to sailors. The ancient Greeks termed a single jet of the fire, Helena, and a double jet, Castor and Pollux. Blah, blah, blah Darwin wrote in a letter to J.S. Henslow that one night when the Beagle was anchored in the estuary of the Rio Plata: "Everything was in flames, the sky with lightning, the water with luminous particles, and even the very masts were pointed with a blue flame." Physical descriptions of St. Elmo's Fire have ranged from a ghostly dancing flame to natural fireworks. It usually is of a blue or bluish- white colour attached to fixed, grounded conductors and has a lifetime of minutes. The flame is heatless and non-consuming, occasionally accompanied by a hissing sound. These latter properties promote the myths of spiritual presence. The biblical burning bush that was not consumed may have been displaying one form of St. Elmo's Fire. Random but interesting information. Could The OOTP be something which is protecting Harry? "[A] ghostly flame which danced among our sails and later stayed like candlelights to burn brightly from the mast....When he appears, there can be no danger" AND......... >From Bram Stokers Dracula:- Suddenly, away on our left I saw a fain flickering blue flame. The driver saw it at the same moment. He at once checked the horses, and, jumping to the ground, disappeared into the darkness. I did not know what to do, the less as the howling of the wolves grew closer. But while I wondered, the driver suddenly appeared again, and without a word took his seat, and we resumed our journey. I think I must have fallen asleep and kept dreaming of the incident, for it seemed to be repeated endlessly, and now looking back, it is like a sort of awful nightmare. Once the flame appeared so near the road, that even in the darkness around us I could watch the driver's motions. He went rapidly to where the blue flame arose, it must have been very faint, for it did not seem to illumine the place around it at all, and gathering a few stones, formed them into some device. Then as time went on, and I had got somewhat bolder, I asked him of some of the strange things of the preceding night, as for instance, why the coachman went to the places where he had seen the blue flames. He then explained to me that it was commonly believed that on a certain night of the year, last night, in fact, when all evil spirits are supposed to have unchecked sway, a blue flame is seen over any place where treasure has been concealed. http://www.mysterylights.com/types/wisp/ Interesting, very interesting. This candles could be leading Harry into the room of the OOTP. And I have a feeling that the OOTP isn't a good thing. Post #14 Bill Here is some more information that I dredged up about phantom candle- flames. http://wintersteel.homestead.com/Co...and_Lights.html Corpse Candles Death Omens in Folklore of Whales and elsewhere in the British Isles. Corpse candles, or canwll corfe, as they are called in Welsh, are mysterious lights which bob over the ground and stop at houses or other sites where a death is eminent. Similar lights are called Fetch candles in Ireland and Northern England. They seem to be similar to the corpse light phosphorescence, but differ in that they have the distant appearance of candle flames. Corpse candles are seen floating through the air at night. Beliefs about them vary in locale. They are said to warn of the death of those who see them, or of someone beloved or someone else known to the party. They appear, it is said, halfway between the doomed person's home and his grave. In South Hampshire, England the lights are said to accompany the souls of the departed, and are extinguished when the souls leave the earth. Ghostly funerals are said to accompany some lights. In Welsh lore, a small, pale or bluish corpse candle presages the death of an infant, while a big light presages the death of an adult. Multiple corpse candles reveal the number of persons soon to die. If the lights are approached, they vanish. Corpse candles are widely reported in Welsh coastal regions. Corpse Lights Phosphorescent lights seen floating about the air at night, which are believed to be harbingers of death. They are white, red or blue, and are seen both indoors and outdoors. They hug the ground, float in the air, hover over the roof of the doomed, or appear over the chest of the doomed. Corpse lights are called by various names, including Corpse Candles, Jack-O'-Lantern, ignis fatuus, corposant, fetch- candles and fetch lights. Since they often appear in marshy areas, the lights may be produced by marsh gas. Another possible explanation is that they may be produced by atmospheric conditions. Nonetheless, numerous accounts exist in folklore of their seemingly supernatural appearance. http://magick.wirefire.com/newpage133.htm Corpse candles, called canwyll corph in Gaelic, are phantom lights or portents of a death. Corpse candles have a long history of legend and lore in Wales. People describe them as mysterious lights that hover over the body of a person shortly before dying. Corpse candles are also said to waft over the roofs of houses when a death occurs inside, or on the very spot before a fatal accident happens. Many claim corpse candles will appear on a route at night, before the funeral procession of the next day. There are numerous web pages with similar descriptions, many with accounts of particular encounters. Post #17 willowfairy81 Bill , I really really liked your theory and the evidence you've provided is very intriguing. To tell the truth, when I saw the (American) cover for OotP, I was quite shocked to find it so spooky and yes, ghost- like. The atmosphere is very reminicent of Nick's Deathday Party with the blue candle flames (etc). Also, I don't know why, but I think Jk Rowling's books are quite philosophical, and from the "death is the next great adventure" quote, I think she wants to reassure her fans (and herself) that death is not "goodbye" but "see you later." So if Harry does encounter his parents (& Cedric, etc) in the "land of the dead" than he'd be more assured of his destiny in life and his role in the upcoming battle against Voldemort. The sad thing for me, however, is that this is NOT an original idea. If anyone's read Phillip Pullman's His Dark Materials trilogy than you know what'd I'm talking about. I just don't want JkR to be accused of ********* ****** Does this possibly tie together with the perspective gained from the `Chymical Marriage'? Bill From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Mon Apr 28 02:09:42 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 22:09:42 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I Hate Snape... Message-ID: <9.fe3c4ae.2bdde766@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56304 Jenny from Ravenclaw: > "Keeps Snape away"? Who says Snape wants to be DADA professor, > anyway? He's damned good at Potions and seems to enjoy it as well; > his opening monologue to his first years made me want to be in the > class, regardless of Snape's attitude. All we can say about Snape and > the DADA position is that the *students* of Hogwarts have heard that > Snape wants the job. Until I hear Snape or Dumbledore confirm that, I > won't believe it. > > I love how JKR can create a rumor within her own writing and convince > so many of us it is true. > > I still can't say Snape is the worst of the worst, though. It's fine > and understandable to hate him, because he *is* an asshole. Maybe he > should even be fired. It doesn't mean, though, that he can't teach > what he knows effectively. It just means he needs some mentoring. With the number of theories that have come up, I doubt this is new....but I haven't followed every single post, so... Anyway-I'm a fan of the 'Dumbledore is keeping Snape around for a reason' theory. What I'd like to add on to that is 'And Snape knows it.' Even though I'm a Snape lover, I'd fire him for treating the students the way he does. I don't think Dumbledore does so because he needs Snape or wants to keep an eye on him or something. Snape, knowing this and probably not exactly wanting to pursue his teaching career any further than he has to, abuses the power given to him. Not exactly a good or even justifiable reason...but a reason nonetheless. ~Cassie-who would like to say to all Snape haters...chances are he doesn't like you very much either ^^~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catlady at wicca.net Mon Apr 28 02:23:45 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 02:23:45 -0000 Subject: Corpse Candles (was: RE: The Living Philosopher's Stone In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56305 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mongo62aa" wrote: > There is a version of that in the old tales of the `swamp candles', > which are supposed to hypnotise unwary travellers at night and lead > them to their deaths by drowning, whereupon they become candles > themselves. Tolkien included this idea in his description of the > `Dead Marshes', but the idea is ancient. Apparently, in the Potterverse, they are non-spiritual magical creatures named Hinkypunks, which Our Heroes study in DADA class with Lupin in PoA. Here's a quote: Professor Lupin had brought along a glass box containing a hinkypunk, a little one-legged creature who looked as though he were made of wisps of smoke, rather frail and harmless looking. "Lures travelers into bogs," said Professor Lupin as they took notes. "You notice the lantern dangling from his hand? Hops ahead -people follow the light -- then --" From siriuskase at earthlink.net Mon Apr 28 02:28:16 2003 From: siriuskase at earthlink.net (siriuskase) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 02:28:16 -0000 Subject: OOP: connection to GoF spoiler? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56306 Cheryl the Lynx wrote: > I was following the thread about how the GoF spoilers turned out when > I had an odd and amusing thought. In reference to JKR's comment about GoF > containing the first 'truly evil female character' and her comment about a > Weasly cousin, female, who was later dropped for Rita Skeeter...could the > Weasly cousin have been the truly evil female she meant? No, Mrs. Le Strange is truly evil. We don't know much about her, but I think that is who or it could be Florence sirius kase From catlady at wicca.net Mon Apr 28 02:48:48 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 02:48:48 -0000 Subject: I Hate Snape... In-Reply-To: <9.fe3c4ae.2bdde766@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56307 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, IAmLordCassandra at a... wrote: > > ~Cassie-who would like to say to all Snape haters...chances are he > doesn't like you very much either ^^~ > I sadly expect that he doesn't like the Snape LOVERS among us any better. From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Mon Apr 28 00:40:42 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 17:40:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I Hate Snape... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030428004042.26362.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56308 > Darrin wrote: > > My own theory is that Dumbledore keeps Snape > away from DADA for the > same reason you don't have an alcoholic > bartending at your wedding. > Temptation too great. > Me: My theory as to why Snape never got the DADA job was a way of trying to show anyone looking that Dumbledore really doesn't trust Snape totally. Snape may not even want the job but the rumor mill has been set in motion just to bolster that impression. Lynn (thinks many of the students would say "I see no difference" if Snape would change into a bat.) ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Sun Apr 27 23:39:10 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 16:39:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: More on Dursleys In-Reply-To: <20030427194131.28926.qmail@web13003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030427233910.30961.qmail@web21208.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56309 --- Lea wrote: > And now me: > > I have to agree with Darrin on this one. I > don't find Harry's situation with the Dursleys > to be funny or exaggerated (on Harry's part). I > believe the abuse is there - on more than one > level - and I'm very relieved that Harry seems > to have escaped their parenting skills. I am > not sure why Dumbledore is of the belief that > Harry is safer at 4 Privet Drive, personally I > have my doubts. > > What is the legal age in England for leaving > home? In Canada it is 16. > > Lea (who is eagerly awaiting Harry's "coming of > age" so he can tell the Dursley's exactly what > he thinks of their loving "care", although he > probably won't) Me: My turn to weigh in. First, as to the abuse. I don't think it's funny either. I think the movies make Vernon and Petunia Dursley more caricatures than the books do. Why did Harry turn out as he has? Who knows. Character? Let's face it, many kids have grown up in an abusive environment but still turn out well, many in stark contrast to their abusers. I also think Dumbledore kept a close eye on Harry and if he thought Harry was not able to handle the situation, he would have stepped in - the what doesn't kill you makes you stronger type of thing. All through the books Dumbledore gives Harry the opportunities to handle things himself and doesn't step in unless necessary, such as when Harry believes in PoA that Snape would have intentionally failed him without Dumbledore. Through the hardships Harry has been developing a very strong character. As for why the Dursleys took in Harry, Dumbledore obviously told them the story since Petunia knew how the Potters had really died. It may well be that Dumbledore also said in the letter that the only way to keep Harry safe was for them to keep him otherwise those who killed James and Lily would come back to kill Harry. Dumbledore obviously had the key to Harry's vault and may well have been sending money for Harry's upkeep from there. I was thinking about whether Harry would have been better off in the wizarding world than with the Dursleys and I really don't think so. I can see one of two things happening to Harry if he had grown up that way. He could have either grown up so pompous and arrogant as to be useless or, the thing I tend toward given what seems Harry's basic character, the enormous pressure he would feel would have crushed him. Look how Amos Diggory reacted toward Harry because Cedric had beaten Harry during a Quidditch match. Even without knowing the circumstances, he makes a big point of saying beating Harry was something Cedric would have to tell his grandkids. Why should it? It was just a school Quidditch match. It just seems as if so many have placed such a burden on Harry to be larger than life and have abilities beyond his years. So much more seems to be expected of Harry even though rational people would realize that a 1 year old couldn't have brought Voldemort's downfall by himself. Besides, it doesn't appear that the WW has orphanages, otherwise wouldn't Tom Riddle have been in one rather than a Muggle one? With regard to Harry telling the Dursleys what he thinks of their 'loving care', well, he's already started doing that, hasn't he. In GoF, when Vernon says something about clothing Harry, Harry is quick to say that he's only given Dudley's old clothes, pointing out a big lack in the Dursley's care of him. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Mon Apr 28 00:44:55 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 17:44:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: More on Dursleys In-Reply-To: <11.fe60565.2bddca2b@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030428004455.40675.qmail@web21208.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56310 Faith wrote: > They knew all about Hogsworth, I don't think > they didn't count on him being > called. I think they assumed they had a say in > the matter, which they > obviously didn't. > > ~Faith~ Me: Personally, I think they thought Harry had been forgotten about until Harry had gotten the letter from Hogwarts. Of course this would negate any continual monetary contribution for Harry's care. The reason I have that impression is how quickly Harry was moved from his closet into the small bedroom after receiving the letter - even over Duddy Dinkums objections. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Mon Apr 28 02:10:59 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (hagrid) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 04:10:59 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: More on Dursleys References: <1dc.86c8068.2bdd3e3f@aol.com> Message-ID: <002501c30d2b$6a698180$189d253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 56311 Ray wrote: Mind you, Hagrid is of the opinion that Dumbledore's letter was meant for Harry, not the Durselys! Me: Dumbledore's letter was for the Dursleys "It's the best place for him," said Dumbledore firmly. "His aunt and uncle will be able to explain everything to him when he's older. I've written them a letter." CHeers, Izaskun From silver_wendigo at yahoo.com Mon Apr 28 02:17:46 2003 From: silver_wendigo at yahoo.com (silver_wendigo) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 02:17:46 -0000 Subject: Death Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56312 Okay, admitably I am new and this has probably already been discussed to enth degree, but...I was reading the Unfogging the Future interview at http://www.bookmagazine.com/issue28/unfogging.shtml and all was going well until I hit upon this statement Rowling has indicated ominously that "there are deaths, more deaths coming," including one that was "horrible to write." I'm curious as to what people's opinions are about the death that was "horrible to write". I doubt Harry, Ron, or Hermione will die (yet at least), but for a death that would be horrible to write about...I'm thinking maybe Hagrid, Mr or Mrs.Weasly, Neville, or Sirius. If not them, then Professer Lupin. But what's the general consensus? "silver_wendigo" From joym999 at aol.com Mon Apr 28 03:02:20 2003 From: joym999 at aol.com (joywitch_m_curmudgeon) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 03:02:20 -0000 Subject: I Hate Snape... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56313 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jenny_ravenclaw" wrote: > "Keeps Snape away"? Who says Snape wants to be DADA professor, > anyway? [snip] I love how JKR can create a rumor within her own writing and convince > so many of us it is true. So true. JKR loves to play with us; to manipulate our beliefs and our feelings about the characters. Some characters, anyway. Look how well she fooled us with Sirius Black. > > I still can't say Snape is the worst of the worst, though. It's fine > and understandable to hate him, because he *is* an asshole. Maybe he > should even be fired. It doesn't mean, though, that he can't teach > what he knows effectively. It just means he needs some mentoring. I think that Snape is by far the most complex and mysterious character JKR has created. He is full of contradictions. On the one hand, he is a terrible teacher, in that he is sadistic and mean and unfair to the students. OTOH, as Jenny points out, he does teach effectively. Somewhere JKR talks about Snape's ability to hold a classes' attention -- the teachers on this list can attest that that is no small skill. And the students are certainly learning to make potions. We can't even define whether Snape is a good or a bad teacher, let alone a good or a bad person. He is just so damn mysterious...even if I didn't like the HP books, I think I would have to continue reading them just to find out what his story is. And why is he *so* loyal to Dumbledore? If I don't find out his story soon, I may explode. Is it June 21 yet? > Hagrid needs a lot more than that, though, but there's no need to get > me started. Jenny, you are a wonderful human being, a charming individual, and one of my most favorite people ever, but you are SO wrong about Hagrid. Wrong wrong wrong. --Joywitch, who hasn't posted on this list in awhile. It feels good to be back. From grosich at nyc.rr.com Mon Apr 28 03:05:58 2003 From: grosich at nyc.rr.com (Gina R Rosich) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 23:05:58 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I Hate Snape... In-Reply-To: <20030428004042.26362.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56314 > Darrin wrote: >> > >> > My own theory is that Dumbledore keeps Snape >> > away from DADA for the >> > same reason you don't have an alcoholic >> > bartending at your wedding. >> > Temptation too great. >> > > > > > ME: > I flat out think Snape doesn?t want the job. Never wanted the job. Just > wants someone competent in the job. Mind you, he might be hard pressed to > find anyone to meet his stands who he doesn?t have a history with. > > > Ladi lyndi" then wrote: > Lynn > (thinks many of the students would say "I see no > difference" if Snape would change into a bat.) > > ===== ME: BWAH HA HA! That?s the best response I?ve seen to this tired argument in ages! I love Snape. I think he?s the most interesting, complex, sharp and well-written characters in the books. And I?ve found that the hardest teachers I?ve had are the ones who taught me the most. Gina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Mon Apr 28 03:03:23 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (hagrid) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 05:03:23 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I Hate Snape... References: <20030428004042.26362.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005301c30d32$c297f3d0$189d253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 56315 > Darrin wrote: > > My own theory is that Dumbledore keeps Snape > away from DADA for the > same reason you don't have an alcoholic > bartending at your wedding. > Temptation too great. > Me: I think Snape is not DADA teacher because he's a superb potions teacher. And there's canon to support it: "I've been feeling a bit off-color," he said. "This potion is the only thing that helps. I am very lucky to be working alongside Professor Snape; there aren't many wizards who are up to making it." Lupin in PoA. Cheers, Izaskun ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From laikokae at hotmail.com Mon Apr 28 03:09:17 2003 From: laikokae at hotmail.com (Kae *) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:09:17 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] I Hate Snape... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56316 Hobbit guy wrote: >Now, I'm not saying that he's evil. Snape might truly be working >for the Light. He might even be helping Dumbledore to work off a >life-debt, or just out of good old-fashioned pragmaticism. I don't >deny that Snape may be a good character, or a character who is working >for good. He may even give the final sacrifice to defeat Voldemort in >the end, for all I know. I still hate him, though. Snape could kill >Voldemort with his own hands and hand his head to Dumbledore on a >silver >platter, and I would still hate him - just because of 4 simple words. > >"I see no difference." > Just a quick message to note that this is actually one of the reasons Snape is my absolute favourite character in the series. Because he IS a complete sadistic bastard, but he's still working for the side of light. I like that JKR is able to create such distinctions - that not all *good* people are *nice* people. That's what makes Snape the most intriguing character. Because, while he is a petty asshole, he's an asshole on the side of good. Laik _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail now available on Australian mobile phones. Go to http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilecentral/hotmail_mobile.asp From bard7696 at aol.com Mon Apr 28 04:01:34 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 04:01:34 -0000 Subject: I Hate Snape... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56317 Joywitch: > I think that Snape is by far the most complex and mysterious > character JKR has created. He is full of contradictions. On the one hand, he is a terrible teacher, in that he is sadistic and mean and unfair to the students. OTOH, as Jenny points out, he does teach> effectively. Somewhere JKR talks about Snape's ability to hold a classes' attention -- the teachers on this list can attest that that is no small skill. Well, except for Hermione and the Polyjuice Potion, I see no evidence that any student has learned much. Perhaps that is unfair, since we have no evidence that anyone has learned any Arithmancy, Muggle Studies, or Runes, either, but hear me out. Snape really does seem to teach a lot like Professor Blinns. Recite and expect the students to get it. And then berate them, unless they are Slytherins, when they don't. >And the students are certainly learning to make > potions. We can't even define whether Snape is a good or a bad > teacher, let alone a good or a bad person. He is just so damn > mysterious...even if I didn't like the HP books, I think I would have to continue reading them just to find out what his story is. > I give the greasy-haired jerk credit. More than any other character, he generates the most theories. My own favorite theory is that he would like nothing better than to be a DE working for V-Mort again, but something in his past made him side with D-Dore and IT PISSES HIM OFF TO NO END NOW! My prediction for Snape, if he survives the big showdown? As soon as it is confirmed that V-Mort is gone for good this time, he marches into Dumbledore's office and says, "Headmaster, take this job and stick it. I'm going somewhere where I will never, ever see another little brat bastard again." And the he will run into Harry and Ron and Hermione on the way out and say: "Mr. Potter. Top marks for your work against Voldemort. But your dad was STILL an asshole." "Miss Granger. Please send me an owl and tell me what job you get, so I can take pains to avoid you for the rest of our lives." "Mr. Weasley. My only regret is that I am leaving too soon to see the last of the Weasleys." > Jenny, you are a wonderful human being, a charming individual, and > one of my most favorite people ever, but you are SO wrong about > Hagrid. Wrong wrong wrong. > You tell her, Joy! :) I made it two weeks on this board again before Jenny and I got the Hagrid thing started. Darrin -- I think it's time to dust off the acronyms again. I used to be good at them. From srsiriusblack at aol.com Mon Apr 28 05:07:02 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 01:07:02 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] I Hate Snape... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56318 OK. Granted, Snape has shown heartlessness and coldness, but his attitude in this situation is based on knowing that Hermione is part of the 'rule breaking' trio. His own house student Draco was respsonsible...... If you look back to COS you see McGonagal treat Harry and Ron with the same leniency. It is a matter of perspective..... -Snuffles Who loves Snape, Lupin, AND Sirius From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Mon Apr 28 05:59:13 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 05:59:13 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter Stinks (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56319 Harry Potter Stinks (GoF, Chap. 19) To the tune of Franklin Shepard Inc. from Sondheim's Merrily We Roll Along Dedicated to Catherine Coleman Hear a MIDI at: http://www.broadwaymidi.com/shows/merrily_we_roll_along.html THE SCENE: Harry has stormed off to bed, leaving Ron alone in the Common Room. RON - who is better at Transfiguration then we knew ? transforms a pincushion into a Daily Prophet reporter so as to provide him with an audience for his bitterness and anger REPORTER (spoken) I know our readers would love to hear why you two are asunder RON (picking up the Potter Stinks badge, and beginning to toy with it.) Why are we asunder? Sure. (music) They went? (RON pantomimes Fred and George unsuccessfully challenging the Age Line) And he went ? (RON pantomimes Harry successfully challenging the Age Line) And that's `cause his power's so strong ? Hmmm-Hmmm-Hmmm ? He loves to impress the throng! ? Hmmm-Hmmm-Hmmm ? Then Al went ? (Ron pantomimes Dumbledore presiding over the Goblet of Fire) And it went ? (Ron pantomimes the Goblet of Fire producing Harry's name) And the crowd went bzzzzz! And Al went ? (mimicking Dumbledore's consultation with his colleagues) "Potter Potter Potter Potter yes, Sev'rus, Potter no, Sev'rus, Potter Potter Potter Potter ? " ?Call the Auror, Sev'rus, ? "Potter Potter Potter Potter Potter do it, Sev'rus, " "Sorry, Igor " So they went ? (Ron pantomimes Durmstrang, Beauxbatons & Snape giving the thumbs down) But we went ? (Ron pantomimes Dumbledore, Crouch Sr. & Moody giving the thumbs up) And he went ? And soon they're lapping it up ? Hmmm-Hmmm-Hmmm ? (mimicking diverse voices in the crowd) "Wiz!" "Move it, Weasley " "Wiz! " "? It's the Daily Prophet ? " "Wiz! "? For an interview ? " "Yes, TriWiz!," "By owl messenger " ""Yes, TriWiz!, "Will he speak to the press? " "Will he weigh his wand? " "Is he sweet on Herm? " "Will he win the prize? " "Will you ? " "Fllllash! " "Beat it, Collin ? " "Potter Potter Potter Potter tells his life " "Potter day and night" "Potter Potter Potter Potter Potter ? " "Wiz! "Even though he's too young " "Wiz! "Yes, TriWiz! " "It's the interview " "No, TriWiz!, " "Will they make him withdraw? " "Are the games going on? " "Does he worry the most? " "Will he tell his best friend? " Then the faculty met And then Dumble said He's in with Viktor, Fleur and Ced, 'Cause he somehow crossed the Age Line. And he's now a Hogwarts Champion. Right? He's the Boy Who Lived And the Boy Who Lied And who won't in his best friend confide, And he made a real stale quote. And won't give an explanation. Right? He revels in his good fortune He's dismissed me as a dink That's the story of the way things are That's why Harry Potter Stinks. REPORTER (spoken) Oh. Well, when you do work together, what do you resent the most ?his fame or his fortune? WEASLEY (spoken) 'Gainst both of them I react REPORTER (spoken) It sounds like you think having money is a bad thing for a wizard. WEASLEY (music) Money? Did you say money? Hey, I need money a lot ? Hmmm-Hmmm-Hmmm ? I mean, they've raised me with naught ? Hmmm-Hmmm-Hmmm ? But when it's ? (grunts hungrily) Money (again) Money Cause he's into ? (snorts) Money And he should be ? (spoken) Listen, Harry has the money thing very well, but you know why? His parents did it for him. And he does the magic thing very well. And you know what? That just makes me bitter. (music) Then the Gryffindors drink Draughts of butterbeer As they wildly applaud and cheer Cause they think that he has won, he Will lead us to victory ? Right? So I ask "What's up? And he starts a ploy, 'Cause he somehow needs To be so coy It's whoo-ooooh! (as Harry, through an owl message) "Hiya, Rita, Wanna hear my yarn? Got my strength from parents, I cry through the nights But they still watch out I'll be safe and sound I'm the nominee For this big event Earning such applause ? " And he regards me with such scorn, ya'd Never know we once were linked He's all business and he's mean, to boot That's why Harry Potter Stinks. Very sneaky how he did it Much more stealthy than a mink. Loyalty just does not mean a thing, That's why Harry Potter ? (spoken ? RON has a sudden attack of remorse and yearning for the restoration of the status quo ante) Wait, could we wait a minute here because I'm sounding too harsh. The thing, you see, is we're not close right now, but we really used to be. And a friendship's like a sewer. What you get out of it depends on what you put into it. And I miss it. I want it back. Look ? (music) Nothing pertinent has happened, We're just slightly out of sync Friendship's something that survives the blues (spoken) Ladies and Gentlemen, don't let me lose the best friend a boy wizard ever had (abruptly, RON suddenly turns bitter against Harry, and pins the POTTER STINKS badge to his chest). Stop him in the hallways - you'll be sure to recognize him, he's the guy passing out autographed photos of himself (music) Very sneaky how it happens, He competes as Dumble winks It's too bad that I don't feel amused ? (highly agitated) Oh, my God, how could this happen He has pushed me to the brink Bogus triumphs dominate the news ? (to Reporter, spoken) In case you didn't notice, this is my first Prophet interview ? and my last. (music) No, here's the point, that Harry Potter ? Oughta really see a shrink ? >From the shadows, his former friend's view Is that ? "Potter Potter Potter Potter quick, Hermy, Get the Headmaster, There's a crazy kid In the Common Room " Is that ? "TriWiz! Flllash! ? Is that ? Harry Potter ? (spoken) Hey, thanks Draco Malfoy for the badge! ? (music) - Stinks! RON transfigures the reporter back into a pincushion and exits. Black- out - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET Mon Apr 28 01:24:09 2003 From: KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET (Linda) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 01:24:09 -0000 Subject: Lily related to the Weasleys Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56320 OK. Maybe I'm a little crazy here but hear me out and let me know what you think. Color seems to be a major componant of the books in several different ways (ie Harry's bright green eyes etc.). Is it just coincidence that Lily, like the entire Weasley family, has red hair? Ron states that he thinks his mother has "a second cousin that's an accountant or something" on the Hogwarts express in SS. Could it be that there were more squibs in her family, maybe one of Lily and Petunia's grandparents perhaps? A magical family history would also explain why Petunia said that her parents were "so proud to have a witch in the family". Maybe, to them it was not an unexpected occurance but something that they had hoped for. Now for some phychoanalysis of Petunia. Maybe her hostility toward the WW in general as well as her sisters memory and Harry in particular are because she felt she was second best to Lily in the matter of living up to her parents/grandparents hopes and expectations. By extension, she feels that Harry is representative of everything she can't, and subconciously wants, to be. Once again I'm throwing out the workings of my tortured mind for review. Linda From the_fox01 at hotmail.com Mon Apr 28 03:32:45 2003 From: the_fox01 at hotmail.com (The Fox) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 23:32:45 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I Hate Snape... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56321 From: "hagrid" >I think Snape is not DADA teacher because he's a superb potions teacher. >And there's canon to support it: > >"I've been feeling a bit off-color," he said. "This potion is the only >thing that helps. I am very lucky to be working alongside Professor Snape; >there aren't many wizards who are up to making it." Lupin in PoA. That demonstrates that he's a superb potions *maker.* The world is full of people who excel at what they do, but can't teach it worth beans. (But note that I do not subscribe to the "those who can't, teach" fallacy. Feh.) In many cases, this is because it's so by-god frustrating to have to start from scratch and deal with people who don't know things that, to the expert, are second nature and seem childishly simple. Snape is a very nearly peerless brewer of potions, but do we really know how well he teaches the kids to brew potions of their own? Fox ... Come on, Nature Just because I don't feel weak Don't mean I feel so strong. -- the Proclaimers .............................. _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From silencescreamsatme at yahoo.com Mon Apr 28 03:48:29 2003 From: silencescreamsatme at yahoo.com (silencescreamsatme) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 03:48:29 -0000 Subject: MY theory on why Snape is so darned mean (Was: I hate Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56322 Darrin wrote: > Snape MIGHT have to be playing a role in order to > keep Draco, Crabbe, > Goyle and any other Slytherins whose dads are > death-eaters from getting too suspicious. If he > started coddling the Gryffindors, Draco > and his Merry Band of Morons might get suspcious. My response: BINGO! My personal pet theory about Snape and his actions is that he is meaner to Harry, his friends, and Gryffindor as a whole than he actually wants to be. Same for how much he favors Malfoy and the Slytherins. Remember, Snape played a double agent once, and it's strongly hinted at the end of GoF that he will be doing it once again. Now how he goes about doing this has yet to be seen. I mean, it can't be easy to convince Voldemort that he's still loyal, especially if it's publicly known that Snape turned spy for Dumbledore's side near the end of Voldemort's rein. Of course we don't know if it's widely known or not, but I figure at least ONE of the DE's would have known, or Voldemort would have picked it up himself somehow...so Snape has a daunting task, if that is in fact what Dumbledore asked him to do. But I digress. Dumbledore isn't stupid. As Hagrid quoted a couple of times that he always knew that Voldemort was going to make a return, and I suspect Dumbledore shared this opinion. So Dumbledore probably had plans in motion to prevent his rise to power (or at least lessen it if/once it DID happen) before Harry even arrived at Hogwarts! And I think one of those plans was Snape. I think Snape has specific orders to take on the 'Bad Guy' role at Hogwarts. He's perfect. Not only does he "seem the sort" (Quirrel in SS, not an exact quote) but I don't think he especially cares if Harry and all hate him for his actions, and if the time ever arrived when Snape had to play double agent again, it would be much easier for Snape to convince the DEs that he hates Harry and favors the Slyterins because that's what his actions ALREADY SAY! I mean, if Voldemort is mulling over whether to accept Snape back into the fold or not, wouldn't it be helpful to have Lucious Malfoy there telling him all the stories about how Snape favors Draco and the rest, and all the horrid mean things he's said/done to Harry and his friends.... Yes, I DO beleive Snape is playing a role. A very important one. I don't think how he treats HRH has anything to do with how HE was treated during his time at Hogwarts...he's just doing what he has to do to convince Voldemort and the other DEs that he is truely on their side, and it's a role he was playing before Harry even entered the picture. I think also this is why Snape has been allowed to get away with his obvious favortism to Slytherins and cruelness towards Gryffindors. Dumbledore turns a blind eye because it is his plan! In the end, would Dumbledore trust someone who was really cold and cruel at heart? How many times has he said that it's not about talent or what class you are born into but about your actions and your choices! So obviously Snape has performed some actions and made some choices that has convinced Dumbledore. If it's good enough for him, it's good enough for me! ~Silence From silencescreamsatme at yahoo.com Mon Apr 28 04:05:12 2003 From: silencescreamsatme at yahoo.com (silencescreamsatme) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 04:05:12 -0000 Subject: I Hate Snape... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56323 Fox wrote: > in fact, he could be teaching Defense Against > the Dark Arts *or* Potions. > (This is a less-solid point, since presumably > if he were as qualified to > teach DADA as he thinks he is, Dumbledore would > consider him for the gig one > of these days.) Or maybe it's not because Snape isn't qualified for the DADA position, but that there is no one else as qualified for the Potions Master position. There seems to be an abundance of people quailified enough to teach DADA, (and they don't even have to be qualified...Lockhart certainly wasn't, and I'm sure Dumbledore saw through him from the first) but how many people could teach Potions considering it seems to be one of the hardest magical arts to master? No, I think Dumbledore keeps Snape where he is just because he's so darned good at it! ~Silence (who if you havent guessed by now is a real Snape fan!) From the_fox01 at hotmail.com Mon Apr 28 05:24:41 2003 From: the_fox01 at hotmail.com (The Fox) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 01:24:41 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] I Hate Snape... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56324 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com >OK. Granted, Snape has shown heartlessness and coldness, but his attitude >in this situation is based on knowing that Hermione is part of the 'rule >breaking' trio. His own house student Draco was respsonsible...... If you >look back to COS you see McGonagal treat Harry and Ron with the same >leniency. > >It is a matter of perspective..... No, no. Even if we grant that Snape's favoring of Draco and other Slytherins is analagous to McGonagall's favoring of Harry and other Gryffindors (and I don't necessarily grant anything of the sort, but never mind), this has nothing to do with Snape's cruelty to Hermione. There's no other teacher who preys on the students he or she *doesn't* favor the way Snape preys on Harry's class. Put another way, this isn't a binary system: there's favor, disfavor, and nul; McGonagall treats Gryffindors with favor and Slytherins with nul, while Snape treats Slytherins with favor and Gryfs with disfavor. The situations are not remotely equal. Fox ... Come on, Nature Just because I don't feel weak Don't mean I feel so strong. -- the Proclaimers .............................. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From rosebeth710 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 28 05:29:29 2003 From: rosebeth710 at yahoo.com (Rosebeth) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 22:29:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: More on Dursleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030428052929.9255.qmail@web41603.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56325 --- addictedtobass2003 wrote: > I think the letter explained that the darkest wizard > of the age had > killed Lily and James, and had tried to kill Harry > but failed. > Maybe it included why they were killed.........???? > I'm not sure about money being enclosed in the > letter, because what > would Dumbledore be doing with muggle money? You > never know, he > might have put a few galleons in! You know that > would have been > funny!!! Do wizards have cheques? Because I > imagined the letter to > be fairly thin, and you couldn't get many galleons > in the space. > I'm also not sure about the implied threat either. > What could > Dumbledore threaten the Dursleys with? However I do > believe that in > the letter it was also explained that on Harry's > 11th birthday, he > will be sent for, and he will go to Hogwarts, > regardless of the > thoughts of the Dursleys. > Me: If the letter contained money it could have easily contained "muggle" money. DD could have easily walked into Gringots and changed money. We know that this is possible because Hermione's parents exchange money in CS. Just a thought. I'm kinda tired. Rosebeth __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From drednort at alphalink.com.au Mon Apr 28 07:50:06 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 17:50:06 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The timeline on the DVD *confirms* canon; Message-ID: <3EAD69CE.29605.805A02@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 56326 On 23 Apr 2003 at 16:49, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com wrote: > Because early next week I should be able to find and provide citations on early entry > and acceleration in British primary schools during the 1980s - I have to do some > research and I'll be accessing a whole bunch of journals on the education of gifted kids > in the UK including (probably) a bunch from the 1980s. If this is a real issue of dispute, it > probably won't be very hard for me to find non-anecdotal published evidence that a child > in the UK in the 1980s could be ahead of the normal age for their years. I may even be > able to find statistics that indicates how common it was (not sure on that - I have seen > an article like that, but I can't remember it's precise details - it may have been talking > about one region). > > I'm happy to do it, if there's any interest - I need to be going through the journals anyway > and I doubt this will add much to the time I will be spending. But I want to see if people > seriously want this stuff. Last week, I offered to do a basic search through gifted and talented literature for any published evidence that could relate to the possibility that Hermione is 'younger than normal' upon starting at Hogwarts. Obviously, in the real world, this doesn't matter much, but as there seems to be some contention involved in the possibilities, and a lot of people throwing anecdotal stories about as evidence, I think it is useful to look at published research material as well. Anecdotal stories have value in that they can show if something is possible, but really doesn't address how common something was. I'm hoping that through going through the published research, I can get more useful information as to that. Today I engaged in a fairly brief search - I am hoping I'll be able to do some more later (mostly for my own interest as a major fan of Hermione who would actually find it very useful if she was accelerated or an early entrant (-8 but I will happily share it.) I'm not expecting this to convince anyone - it's just more information that some people might find useful. Basically I decided to look for evidence of early entry to school in the United Kingdom, or acceleration through school (skipping one or more years being the most common form), particularly in state schools, particularly in England, and particularly during the 1980s or very early 1990s (the time most likely to be relevant to Hermione.) If anyone sees anything wrong with all this, please let me know - I only have a passing familiarity with education systems in Britain. Document #1: 'Gifted Education in England' by David George, published in Roeper Review, March 1992, page 200-201. At the time of writing, David George was Associate Director of Nene College, Northampton, President of the National Association for Curriculum Development, and a member of the Council for the National Association of Gifted Children. The article draws primarily on a 1989/90 national review of gifted education in the UK for its data. I haven't been able to get a copy of that, and may not be able to - I will look though. Relevant quotes from the article: "In 1989 the National Association for Gifted Children (NAGC), with a grant from the Department of Education and Science, set up a survey of provision for able and talented children in the United Kingdom... This NAGC survey provide the best basis of a status report on the education of the gifted in the United Kingdom. "Out of the 105 Local Education Authorities (LEA) approached, three-fifths responded and from those responses, 42 authorities said they made special provision for gifted and talented children... "Acceleration of children is not encouraged unless the children are ready psychologically, socially, emotionally, and, of course, intellectually. The NAGC survey showed that 18 LEAs (29%) encouraged acceleration and early transfer to the next stage of education." This is from a review undertaken in 1989 and it does suggest that acceleration and early transfer (though it doesn't specifically speak on early admission) may not have been as uncommon as many people seem to think. I am going to look for better data - but when 18 LEAs out of 105 total say they encourage this, it's fairly likely it occurred a reasonable number of times - not certain, because I am well aware that policy does not always match reality, but I do think it is of interest. People in the apparent majority of LEAs that did not encourage acceleration or early entry may well have viewed it as rare with good reason, even if it was occurring quite commonly elsewhere. Document #2: 'Aspects of Primary Education: The Education of Children Under Five by Her Majesty's Inspectorate, Department of Education and Science, 1989. This is probably the clearest document I will be able to find on the likelihood of a child starting early in British schools at about the right time (it's a few years late, but it's fairly close). "1. Maintained educational provision for children under five includes nursery schools, designated nursery classes and units, and classes with under-fives admitted early to primary school... "3. Of the under-fives receiving education in maintained provision approximately 24 percent are in nursery schools or designated nursery classes and units, while 21 per cent are admitted early to primary school." It doesn't give firm numbers there, but it does say that nearly as many kids were starting school early as are in nursery schools, and I would say that's a fairly significant number. I do have some other material as well, but I need to look at it in more detail (and find out some information about British education on one - I can't work out if what is being described in it is abnormal or not), and I also don't want to overwhelm the list with material that is probably boring to most people Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "Almighty Ruler of the all; Whose power extends to great and small; Who guides the stars with steadfast law; Whose least creation fills with awe; Oh grant thy mercy and thy grace; To those who venture into space." From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Apr 28 08:00:09 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 08:00:09 -0000 Subject: More on Dursleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56327 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > > > > > bboy_mn: > > > > I think it could be something as simple as "What would the neighbors think?". > > > darrin: > > ... wouldn't want people thinking they turned away a family > member, but ... easy enough to lie and say they have no clue > who the kid is .... > > Maybe some neighbors would suspect -- perhaps they would assume the > kid was some illegitimate son of Vernon's ...edited... > > bboy_mn: I'm sure they could get away with the lie. That is, they could say they didn't know anything about it, but you said it yourself, 'some neighbors would suspect'. Then rumors would start to fly. Why was is left at the fourth house instead of the first one? Why way out in the suburbs? Was this a baby from an affair that Vernon had? Of course, for a random baby to be dropped off, the authorities would have to be called in. There would be police investigation. They would start digging into the Dursley's affairs. It would be on the news. No... best to just keep the boy, and stick with the car crash story. > bboy_mn previously said: > > > ... might have been something in the letter.... ...there could > have been some intimidation ... or some type of incentive ..... > darrin continues > > ...edited... > > .... the Dursleys ... stow away .... money Dumbledore gave them and > pretend raising Harry was a horrible financial burden. > > Darrin > -- Carrot and the Stick. The next big rap group. bboy_mn: Good thought, and just as likely as anything else but I was thinking of 'after the fact'. That is, do this now and get it right, and when Harry comes of age, we will pay you $$$$$. Someone pointed out that there wouldn't have been enough room in the envelope to put any significant amount of money, but there could have been instructions for getting money transferred to the Dursley's bank account or for a later meeting to transfer the cash. Personally, I'm stick with the pay coming after Harry grow up. Just a thought. bboy_mn PS: I always thought 'Kung Fu Shoes' was a good name for a music group. From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 28 08:00:13 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 08:00:13 -0000 Subject: I Hate Snape... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56328 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > Joywitch: > > Well, except for Hermione and the Polyjuice Potion, I see no > evidence that any student has learned much. > Darrin Very quickly, before I zoom off: Two words. Fred. George. Those Ton tongue toffees and Canary Creams are magical objects that you ingest, ie. they use Potions knowledge. So Snape has taught two Gryffindors (who didn't do very well in OWLS) the principles of Potions so well that they can *create* new potions. Pip!Squeak (aka Pip) Welcome back, Darrin! From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Apr 28 08:48:30 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 08:48:30 -0000 Subject: Generosity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56329 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Dan "Danger Mouse" > wrote: > > > this post made me wonder why McGonagall would drop a huge amount of money on a new racing broom for Harry .... > Catlady: > > We don't KNOW that McGonagall paid for the Nimbus 2000. She may have > gotten Dumbledore's permission to pay for it with money from Harry's > vault (I > > Someone ... once suggested that Hogwarts pays for the first > Quidditch broomstick for each student who gets on their House team, > and buys them the best broomstick currently available to the > general public. ...edited... > bboy_mn: The Broom- First, we don't know that anybody actually GAVE the broom to Harry. It might have been paid for with school money and was therefore the school's broom. Harry may not have realized it, but it's possible when he graduated, they were going to ask for the broom back. Although, I can't deny the possibility that it was paid for out of Harry's own bank account. He does take the broom home with him over the summer. That wouldn't seem likely with a school owned broom. We really don't know what the price of a broom is other than in PoA the Firebolt is said to cost hundreds of Galleons (G100=?500=$800), so $2,000 or $3,000 seems a conservative estimate. As far as the suggestion, the student who make the team are bought the best currently available broom, I doubt it. The Weasley twins broom seem to be very out of date; Cleansweep Fives. The current version of the Cleansweep series of brooms as of PS/SS is the model Seven, and Cleansweeps don't seem to be racing brooms. They seem more like general purpose brooms, although probably good general purpose brooms since Wood suggests them as a possible broom for Harry. > Catlady continues: > > ... It has been suggested on list that they are trying to > teach Ron the lesson that he has to ASK for help. He could ask his > parents or his older brother Bill or his friend Harry, or if he > asked McGonagall, there might be a fund available for buying > replacement wands for students who broke theirs. > bboy_mn: That would be me, although I hope there are others who agree. I can't believe that with all magic can do, there isn't some repair spell that is better that spell-o-tape. Even if, way too proud for his own good Ron had asked Hermione, she probably would have look up a repair spell for him. But Ron just sucked it up, and tried to get by with what he had. The Trio seem a little too independant for their own good, and after the adventures of the year before, it could be that the teachers thought 'asking for help' might be a very good lesson for them to learn. Doesn't seem to have worked though. > > Dan? said: > > > > And what about Harry, with his vaultful of Galleons? > > Harry knows how touchy Ron is about money and accepting gifts ...edited... bboy_mn: As everyone has pointed out, buying a wand isn't that easy. You have to go their in person and be 'fitted' for the wand, so no neat little package under the Christmas tree. Harry suggested to Ron that he write home and ask his parents to buy him a new wand ($60 to $80), but Ron was afraid of getting another Howler from his mother. When ever a situation occurs with any of the Weasley that emphasizes their poverty, Harry, in narative, says to himself that he would gladly share the money he has with the Weasleys, but he know none of them would take it. Look at Fred and George at the end of GoF. Harry had to struggle and threaten to get them to take the Tri-Wizards money, and of all the Weasleys, I think the Twins would be easiest to give money to. So I think, any thoughts of Harry buying Ron a wand are out of the question. The only thing worse than being poor, is having you best friend remind you that he is rich. Just a thought. bboy_mn From JessaDrow at aol.com Mon Apr 28 10:26:12 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 06:26:12 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Death Message-ID: <31.37b4e835.2bde5bc4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56330 In a message dated 4/27/03 10:54:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, silver_wendigo at yahoo.com writes: > I'm curious as to what people's opinions are about the death that > was "horrible to write". I doubt Harry, Ron, or Hermione will die > (yet at least), but for a death that would be horrible to write > about...I'm thinking maybe Hagrid, Mr or Mrs.Weasly, Neville, or > Sirius. If not them, then Professer Lupin. But what's the general > consensus? > I think Dumbledore, I really think his days are numbered. ~Faith~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bard7696 at aol.com Mon Apr 28 11:30:08 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 11:30:08 -0000 Subject: I Hate Snape... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56331 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, srsiriusblack at a... wrote: > OK. Granted, Snape has shown heartlessness and coldness, but his attitude in > this situation is based on knowing that Hermione is part of the 'rule > breaking' trio. His own house student Draco was respsonsible...... If you > look back to COS you see McGonagal treat Harry and Ron with the same leniency. > > It is a matter of perspective..... > Harry and Ron both got detentions in CoS. Draco got nothing and Hermione got her appearance insulted in front of her peers. Remember life as a 14-year-old? Eating disorders have been caused by less. And the "McGonnagal is lenient toward Gryffindor" argument falls apart when you consider PS/SS and her taking 50 points each away from Harry, Ron and Neville and only 20 from Draco. Darrin From bard7696 at aol.com Mon Apr 28 11:51:42 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 11:51:42 -0000 Subject: Generosity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56332 > bboy_mn: > The Broom- > First, we don't know that anybody actually GAVE the broom to Harry. It might have been paid for with school money and was therefore the > school's broom. Harry may not have realized it, but it's possible when he graduated, they were going to ask for the broom back. > It is still likely to me that McGonnagall gave Harry the broom. If she has one weak spot, it is Quidditch. Remember, she overlooked what Madame Hooch said was an expulsion-worthy offense -- Harry flying around during the first broomstick class -- because she saw a great Seeker flashing before her eyes. > As far as the suggestion, the student who make the team are bought the best currently available broom, I doubt it. The Weasley twins broom seem to be very out of date; Cleansweep Fives. The current version of the Cleansweep series of brooms as of PS/SS is the model Seven, and Cleansweeps don't seem to be racing brooms. They seem more like general purpose brooms, although probably good general purpose brooms since Wood suggests them as a possible broom for Harry. Bludgers and Keepers don't need as fast a brooms as the Chasers and the Seekers do anyway, so the twins might very well be fine with what they have. > > bboy_mn: > That would be me, although I hope there are others who agree. I can't believe that with all magic can do, there isn't some repair spell that is better that spell-o-tape. Oh, I'd agree with that. Look, we all know JKR needed the wand broken at the end for Lockhart to get what was coming to him, but it still comes off a touch lame. (Especially in light of all the movie "Oculus Repairo" stuff.) Maybe Ron finds a spell that is really tricky and complicated -- which would makes sense, because you wouldn't want expelled wizards and witches able to put wands back together very easily -- and he tries it, but only gets it part right. It still falls apart at inopportune moments. > > As everyone has pointed out, buying a wand isn't that easy. You have > to go their in person and be 'fitted' for the wand, so no neat little > package under the Christmas tree. Harry suggested to Ron that he write > home and ask his parents to buy him a new wand ($60 to $80), but Ron > was afraid of getting another Howler from his mother. And unless Ollivanders has a franchise in Hogsmeade, Harry and Ron would have had to go back to London to get another wand, probably over the Christmas holiday, when they were needed for the Polyjuice stuff. And I'm not sure how transactions work in the wizard world. Harry and others make a point of going to Gringotts before the annual Diagon Alley shopping trip to get hard currency, but Sirius -- the most wanted wizard in the world -- is able to say, "take money out of my vault." Could Harry have walked into the Ollivanders Hogsmeade (assuming there is one) and said, "Take money out of my account"? > When ever a situation occurs with any of the Weasley that emphasizes > their poverty, Harry, in narative, says to himself that he would > gladly share the money he has with the Weasleys, but he know none of > them would take it. Look at Fred and George at the end of GoF. Harry > had to struggle and threaten to get them to take the Tri-Wizards > money, and of all the Weasleys, I think the Twins would be easiest to give money to. > Good point, and remember, in that same sequence, Harry tells them, "Buy Ron some new dress robes, and say they are from you." He is extremely sensitive to Ron's despair over being poor. Darrin -- Kung Fu Shoes, eh? Not bad From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Mon Apr 28 10:00:02 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (hagrid) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 12:00:02 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I Hate Snape... References: Message-ID: <003001c30d6c$f0a881b0$a651243e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 56333 ----- Original Message ----- From: silencescreamsatme To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 6:05 AM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I Hate Snape... Fox wrote: > in fact, he could be teaching Defense Against > the Dark Arts *or* Potions. > (This is a less-solid point, since presumably > if he were as qualified to > teach DADA as he thinks he is, Dumbledore would > consider him for the gig one > of these days.) Silence wrote: Or maybe it's not because Snape isn't qualified for the DADA position, but that there is no one else as qualified for the Potions Master position. There seems to be an abundance of people quailified enough to teach DADA, (and they don't even have to be qualified...Lockhart certainly wasn't, and I'm sure Dumbledore saw through him from the first) but how many people could teach Potions considering it seems to be one of the hardest magical arts to master? No, I think Dumbledore keeps Snape where he is just because he's so darned good at it! Me: THat was exactly my point. He is an excelent potion maker, maybe he's not the perfect teacher, but there's no assumption he would improve as a teacher being DADA teacher. What we do know is that few people could do what Snape does as a potion master. So, why risk it? Why make him DADA teacher and lose a superb potion master? Cheers, Izaskun Yahoo! 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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From titaniclady_1912 at hotmail.com Mon Apr 28 10:09:53 2003 From: titaniclady_1912 at hotmail.com (Anne(Anja)) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 10:09:53 -0000 Subject: Death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56334 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "silver_wendigo" wrote: > Okay, admitably I am new and this has probably already been > discussed to enth degree, but...I was reading the Unfogging the > Future interview at > http://www.bookmagazine.com/issue28/unfogging.shtml > and all was going well until I hit upon this statement > > Rowling has indicated ominously that "there are deaths, more deaths > coming," including one that was "horrible to write." > > I'm curious as to what people's opinions are about the death that > was "horrible to write". I doubt Harry, Ron, or Hermione will die > (yet at least), but for a death that would be horrible to write > about...I'm thinking maybe Hagrid, Mr or Mrs.Weasly, Neville, or > Sirius. If not them, then Professer Lupin. But what's the general > consensus? > > > "silver_wendigo" I actually believe that the death hard to write will be the one of either Bill or Charlie Weasley. We got to know the two of them a little better in GoF and both of them are truly likeable characters . Additionally their deaths would affect the life of the main characters (Harry , Hermione , the Weasleys) , so it would make perfect sense to kill them off. Anja From KLMF at aol.com Mon Apr 28 13:08:11 2003 From: KLMF at aol.com (KLMF at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 09:08:11 EDT Subject: Broken Wand and Dumbledore's death Message-ID: <1db.87cbf7e.2bde81bb@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56335 Hi Everyone! I'm new on this list, only been reading it a few days, and I apologize in advance if I make a blunder here...so many rules! I'm on Digest so please forgive me if someone already mentioned this. Great list, love the discussions! Anyway, it seems to me that a broken wand is not repairable, period. Wasn't Hagrid's wand broken when he was expelled? Wouldn't that imply a kind of permanence? Didn't he essentially do what Ron did to make it work again, by piecing it together into his umbrella? What I wonder about, though, is why when Hagrid does use it it doesn't malfunction like Ron's does. Re Dumbledore being knocked off in the next book.....my husband is convinced that it will be Dumbledore for the simple reason that he would fit an age-old pattern of powerful mentors being killed and then becoming more powerful in spirit to those that remain.....case in point--Obi Wan Kenobi in SW. He sited many other examples of modern and ancient fiction, myth, even religion, and as JKR has borrowed from a lot of sources I have to admit he has a point there.... Karen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bard7696 at aol.com Mon Apr 28 13:41:49 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:41:49 -0000 Subject: Broken Wand and Dumbledore's death In-Reply-To: <1db.87cbf7e.2bde81bb@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56336 Karen: > > Re Dumbledore being knocked off in the next book.....my husband is convinced that it will be Dumbledore for the simple reason that he would fit an age-old pattern of powerful mentors being killed and then becoming more powerful in > spirit to those that remain.....case in point--Obi Wan Kenobi in SW. He cited many other examples of modern and ancient fiction, myth, even religion, > and as JKR has borrowed from a lot of sources I have to admit he has a point > there.... This is bolstered by the blatant Gandalf-izing of Dumbledore at the end of GoF, when Harry sees him REALLY ticked off. I think maybe Dumbledore doesn't survive the big showdown, but I'm not sure he dies in the next book. I think Hagrid is the one character that shouldn't be buying green bananas. Here are those I think die, or are Dementorized, by the end of it: * Hagrid * At least two of the nine Weasleys * Fudge * Narcissa Malfoy * A couple members of the "old crowd" and definitely either Pupin or Sirius * Neville * maybe Harry himself From d_lea25 at yahoo.ca Mon Apr 28 13:58:05 2003 From: d_lea25 at yahoo.ca (Lea) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 09:58:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily related to the Weasleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030428135805.47665.qmail@web13001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56337 Linda wrote: > OK. Maybe I'm a little crazy here but >hear me out and let me >know what you think. > Color seems to be a major componant of >the books in several >different ways (ie Harry's bright green eyes >etc.). Is it just >coincidence that Lily, like the entire >Weasley family, has red hair? >Ron states that he thinks his mother has "a >second cousin that's an >accountant or something" on the Hogwarts >express in SS. Could it be >that there were more squibs in her family, >maybe one of Lily and >Petunia's grandparents perhaps? A magical >family history would also >explain why Petunia said that her parents >were "so proud to have a >witch in the family". Maybe, to them it was >not an unexpected >occurance but something that they had hoped >for. Me: If this is true, and I'll leave that point to others to argue, it certainly throws a wet blanket over the Harry/Ginny possibilities. Lea :) --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From titaniclady_1912 at hotmail.com Mon Apr 28 13:48:35 2003 From: titaniclady_1912 at hotmail.com (Anne(Anja)) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:48:35 -0000 Subject: I Hate Snape... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56338 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Pessin" wrote: > Not me. I think he's a heartless jerk who takes entirely too much > pleasure in the pain he gives his students. Why, you may ask, do I show > such bile against a fictional character? The intensity of this attitude > of mine can be traced to a single comment made by Snape. From GoF, US > Paperback edition, pp. 299-300: > > Ron... forced Hermione to show Snape her teeth - she was doing her best > to hide them with her hands, though this was difficult as they had now > grown down past her collar... > Snape looked coldly at Hermione, then said, "I see no difference." I totally agree with you in saying that Snape's behaviour towards his students is more than questionable , especially when it comes to the Gryffindors. He favours the Slytherins , he insults Harry and his friends more than once and I don't think that there is any way to deny or to excuse this kind of behaviour. Nevertheless I am one of those who believe that Snape is by far the most fascinating character in the Harry Potter series. Not because he is such a nice and heroic guy but because there seems to be more to him than meets the eye (like JKR already told us). Sure , his behaviour is kind of strange but have you never wondered WHY he is that way ? Just think about his past. Do you really think that insulting Hermione the way he did in GoF is the worst thing he has ever done in his life ? Come on , we know that he is an ex-Deatheater and as such would have done things far beyond his students' imagination. I know that it has been suggested that he was just Voldemort's Potions Master and therefore never killed anyone but I am not too sure about that. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that Snape was a killer , just as the others were. Like many others , I honestly believe that he feels terribly guilty for his past , just think of the scene with Fake!Moody in GoF in which he grabbed his arm and looked as if being angry about himself. For his behaviour towards his students , I think that he acts exactly like someone who doesn't like himself and who desperately wants too hide something - and I am sure that there are a lot of things Snape has to hide. You see , I don't like Snape for his personality (like I do with Lupin) but for all the things we don't know about him. He is such a strange and mysterious character that I am really curious what will become of him in future books. Bye, Anja From drmm at fuuko.com Mon Apr 28 14:05:50 2003 From: drmm at fuuko.com (drmm_fuuko) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:05:50 -0000 Subject: I Hate Snape... (& Snape as a teacher + Neville) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56339 Well, this Snape fan won't flame anyone that dislikes Snape. As fascinating as I find him, I agree that he's a bitter, cruel man; quite frankly, he's an asshole. If I met him in real life, I'd probably want to hit him with a sledgehammer. However, I think that Snape is one of the most important characters in terms of Harry's emotional growth. In PS/SS Harry, Ron and Hermione automatically assume that the cruel teacher must be the evil one. Good people = nice. Bad people = nasty. This is a fairly simplistic world view, typical of young people. Harry is shocked when he realizes that Quirrel, someone he felt a bit sorry for, is the bad guy. This revelation, combined with the Barty Crouch revelation in GoF, is important for the Trio to realize that all nice people are not good and all nasty people are not evil. I think that future revelations will help cement that idea into Harry's brain. Since Snape IS firmly in the 'grey' area, to me, he's the most interesting character in the books. He's the most complex character we've encountered so far, so I can't help but find him more interesting than any of the other characters. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" <<> Well, except for Hermione and the Polyjuice Potion, I see no evidence > that any student has learned much. Perhaps that is unfair, since we > have no evidence that anyone has learned any Arithmancy, Muggle > Studies, or Runes, either, but hear me out. > > Snape really does seem to teach a lot like Professor Blinns. Recite > and expect the students to get it. And then berate them, unless they > are Slytherins, when they don't.>> Well, we certainly aren't told a lot about what he teaches in Potions since Harry and Ron don't pay any attention to Snape. However, he obviously does more than just make them memorize; Hermione learned about the Polyjuice Potion during a lecture, so he has to teach them more than just memorizing ingrediants. And don't forget that Fred & George manage to make a lot of practical jokes, most of which must involve Potions to some degree. I sometimes think that Snape's presence could be benificial to the students. Potion making is an exact science. One small mistake can spell disaster. If a person gets flustered or startled, who knows what could result from their mistake. They could end up covered with green moss or causing a huge explosion. Snape spends most of his time hovering over his students, intentionally trying to startle them. They must learn to cope with one of the most intimidating people they'll ever meet on a daily basis. He certainly does his best to put a lot of pressure on them ... After taking classes with Snape, almost any other situation would be a breeze. As for Neville, I suspect the main reason why Potions is his worst subject, is that he has a poor memory. Since potion-making is exact, if he forgets to add something or adds it at the wrong time (which he frequently does), he could cause a disaster. Of course, Snape doesn't help ... DrMM *~*~*~*~* http://www.fuuko.com/ http://www.fuuko.com/hpquiz.html - The Harry Potter Obsession Quiz) http://www.fuuko.com/doujinshi/ - Addiction: A Harry Potter Doujinshi Website From abigailnus at yahoo.com Mon Apr 28 14:38:23 2003 From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:38:23 -0000 Subject: Broken Wand and Dumbledore's death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56340 Darrin wrote, about Dumbledore's impending death: > This is bolstered by the blatant Gandalf-izing of Dumbledore at the > end of GoF, when Harry sees him REALLY ticked off. You think Dumbledore is Gandalf-ized at the end of GoF? Because I have to say I don't see it. Frankly, I think seeing Dumbledore as a Gandalf clone doesn't really survive careful scrutiny. There are obviously superficial similarities. Gandalf and Dumbledore are both the mentor figures, which is a pretty well defined role without much room for variety, and Dumbledore does bear a close resemblance to early Gandalf - both in appearance and in his slightly daffy behavior, but that Gandalf exists only in The Hobbit and the very beginning of FOTR. He is very soon replaced by Gandalf the general of war, and I've yet to see Dumbledore make that transition. The end of GoF hinted at it, but I suspect we're still going to see a lot of twinkly Dumbledore. And as long as we're on the subject, why does equating Dumbledore to Gandalf *strengthen* the argument that Dumbledore is going to die? Surely we all remember how that turned out? Abigail Waving my 'Dead Lupin in OOP' flag From fakeplastikcynic at hotmail.com Mon Apr 28 14:13:49 2003 From: fakeplastikcynic at hotmail.com (martha) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:13:49 -0000 Subject: Against all odds, Harry isn't a mass murderer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56341 Fandulin wrote: > Have anyone else ever marvelled at how well adjusted and socially > competent Harry turned out, having grown up with the Dursleys? And Catlady said: > Oh, yes, very much so. Enough so that I've invented a theory to > explain it. I think Lily was able, with her magic, to put an image of > herself in her baby's mind, that would be like an 'imaginary mum' (by > analogy with 'imaginary friend') who would cuddle Harry and tell him > that he's a good kid who doesn't deserve Dursley abuse and tell him > about how decent people behave, thus being that one caring adult > ("example of goodness" otherwise lacking in his real life) said to be > necessary to even a 'resilient' child's survival of serious abuse... [snip other very good points] I'm going to step out of lurker's corner for a while. Catlady, I really like your notion of the "image-Lily", and I especially agree with your points on Harry's conditioned learning - the example you used was Harry's anti-capital punishment stance, stemming from Vernon's ranting about stringin' 'em up. (Side note on related topic - I *love* that Vernon reads the Daily Mail, and I was actually sort of disappointed that one of the things that *wasn't* changed across cultures was the paper he reads. I think it's odd that certain words were changed, but that references very specific to cultures weren't. Reading the Daily Mail is *so* Vernon, and I can't help but think that this is something that readers in other countries might actually *not* understand the significance of. End random side note.) I also think that Harry's relationships with Ron, Hermione, Hagrid, Dumbledore et al have helped to ground him, so to speak. Though I still agree there must be something more - maybe the dreams of the flying motorbike? - that kept him going. Of course, it is arguable that Harry isn't 100% well adjusted anyway. He is plagued with highly disturbing nightmares which actually seem to get worse over time (PTSD, anyone?). When he encounters Sirius in the Shrieking Shack at the end of PoA, he is entirely consumed by rage, he tries to attack him (fair enough in the circumstances maybe, but I know people who would make a cup of St John's Wort and suggest a time-out. Then again, I live in Brighton). ;-) Along with all this, though, I'm going to throw in a couple of annoying thoughts on the matter - I believe that Harry is well- adjusted and noble and sociable and all the rest of it because JK Rowling didn't want to write "A Child Called It". She could have done - "Once upon a time there was a boy called Harry Potter, and he was treated so badly he couldn't sustain a normal relationsip in his adolescence, so he received ECT and Ritalin and got taken into care, etc etc etc" - but she didn't. She wanted to write about Harry Potter, the boy who lived, Gryffindor extraordinaire, school champion, king of quidditch and all-round Good Bloke. (And yay that she did.) I know that's a really annoying answer, but it's just a couple of knuts from someone who lurks most of the time. (I'm in the middle of writing an essay on unhappy childhood autobiographies, so there we go.) Hope that helps fuel the discussion, anyway. Thanks, Martha (the Punk House-Elf) From alison.williams at virgin.net Mon Apr 28 14:28:34 2003 From: alison.williams at virgin.net (bluetad2001) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:28:34 -0000 Subject: More on Dursleys In-Reply-To: <20030427233910.30961.qmail@web21208.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56342 Lynn wrote - > My turn to weigh in. First, as to the abuse. I > don't think it's funny either. I think the > movies make Vernon and Petunia Dursley more > caricatures than the books do. I'd agree with both points. Its a nightmarish sort of family with its surreally absurd side, but really quite grim in the books. However I haven't posted just to say "I agree"! I'm coming to an additional point next. > Why did Harry > turn out as he has? Who knows. Character? Let's > face it, many kids have grown up in an abusive > environment but still turn out well, many in > stark contrast to their abusers. In fact its Dudley who is the child who shows abusive tendencies but, to be fair, Dudley has been abused as much as Harry in a different way, and he (Dudley) seems to have less natural defences against it. He's been given every material thing he could want and more but given no encouragement to do anything other than passively consume. He's been as stifled and limited by his upbringing as Harry has, but with no way out. (Are you feeling sorry for him yet?) The Dursleys seem to be opposed, not just to magic, but to anything that involves imagination and creativity and which might mean nonconformity. I can imagine that they might be almost as shocked and appalled by Harry getting an invitation to Hogwarts School of Art! Is 'magic' being used here as a metaphor for creativity and personal development, which is stifled by a 'muggle' attitude to life? Alison From the_fox01 at hotmail.com Mon Apr 28 14:44:05 2003 From: the_fox01 at hotmail.com (The Fox) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 10:44:05 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I Hate Snape... (& Snape as a teacher + Neville) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56343 From: "drmm_fuuko" >However, I think that Snape is one of the most important characters in >terms of Harry's emotional growth. In PS/SS Harry, Ron and Hermione >automatically assume that the cruel teacher must be the evil one. Good >people = nice. Bad people = nasty. > >This is a fairly simplistic world view, typical of young people. Harry is >shocked when he realizes that Quirrel, someone he felt a bit sorry for, is >the bad guy. This revelation, combined with the Barty Crouch revelation in >GoF, is important for the Trio to realize that all nice people are not good >and all nasty people are not evil. Exactly. And, triangular-wise, all good people? aren't going to be nice, and you can't count on evil people to be nasty. [ominous chords] (Don't forget what Sondheim had the Witch -- of all people -- say in "Into the Woods": "You're so *nice.* You're not good, you're not bad, you're just *nice.* I'm not good; I'm not nice; I'm just *right.*") >I think that future revelations will help cement that idea into Harry's >brain. Oh, I'm counting on it. Hmm, who can be the counterpoint to Snape, someone who's very nice and pleasant and in fact eeevil. (And don't say Lupin, because I don't want to hear it.) Today let's hear from ... Professor Flitwick! :-) Fox ... Come on, Nature Just because I don't feel weak Don't mean I feel so strong. -- the Proclaimers .............................. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 28 15:22:20 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 08:22:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I Hate Snape... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030428152220.22912.qmail@web21004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56344 Pippin said: So Snape has taught two Gryffindors (who didn't do very well in OWLS) the principles of Potions so well that they can *create* new potions. Me: Actually we never learn too much about what the students learn in any of the classes really. I imagine Snape, as dislikeable as he is does well enough as a teacher providing the student is interested enough in potions to learn. But every teacher has that problem in any school! Also, I don't think we can say the twins didn't do well in the OWL's. They probably did quite well. We only know they didn't quite live up to the possibly very demanding standards of their parents. After all, their brothers before them were excellent students as is Percy after him. So what constitutes doing good is all relative here. We know the twins are good students, get good marks and are intelligent. So my guess is their first year of OWL's was solid enough even if not up to their family standards. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From grosich at nyc.rr.com Mon Apr 28 15:47:16 2003 From: grosich at nyc.rr.com (Gina R Rosich) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 11:47:16 -0400 Subject: Wands and broomsticks In-Reply-To: <1db.87cbf7e.2bde81bb@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56345 Hi everyone. Somewhere along the past 150,000 threads this week was an argument about someone buying Harry a broomstick and the school replacing Ron?s wand. I just wanted to say that I am so sure the school sees Ron?s parents as responsible for Ron. They should not be expected to buy him a wand?or even entertain the idea. But they should have notified his parents if Ron did not. Could be that at some point behind the scenes MacGonagall asked Ron about his wand and he lied and said he asked his parents. Just an idea. On the other hand, Harry has no one. The Dursleys are not paying for Harry, do not sign permission slips, or bring him to the train, or send him owls or pay for any of his supplies. Harry is totally on his own. And not about to buy a nice racing broom. So, if MacGonagall wants Harry on the team, she knows she will have to be the one supplying the broom. No one else is going to buy it for him. And, MacGonagall is a bit of an old softie. Plus, she does have a competitive streak in her. (I love her little complaint about Snape taunting her. Kind of makes you wonder what those two are like when the kids are not around. Snape might actually have a sense of humour with the likes of MacGonagall). Just my 2 knuts. Gina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com Mon Apr 28 15:52:07 2003 From: mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com (mlle_bienvenu) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 15:52:07 -0000 Subject: If Snape is a vampire, he isn't bothered by sunlight... In-Reply-To: <005301c30c62$bb0b8ad0$4a5b253e@takun> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56346 Izaskun wrote: > i don't think he's a vampire, a half-vampire or anything near it. >He's not affected by sun, he's not afected by garlic, and he eats and >drink like a normal person. Doesn't look like a vampire to me. I >think JK was just trying to describe him, and the bat-alike >description is a very powerful image, that's all. But again, maybe >I'm wrong. Now Me: Ah! You've hit upon a pet theory of mine! (or rather two pet theories that are interlinked) 1: Eats and Drinks like a normal person. 2: Snape is not affected by the sun. Exactly what field of study is Snape most proficient at? What class does Snape teach? Potions. And how is he described? Greasy...put two and two together, you get.....Sunblock! As for the eating and blood craving thing, since there's a Werewolve's Bane Potion, I've no doubt there is also a Vampire's Bane Potion as well, which could very well be Snape's motivation for becomeing proficient in potions anyway. Snape being who he is, is going to want to make the stuff himself... I also believe that he wears sun blocking contact lenses, which is why his eyes are described as 'beetle black, but with none of the warmth of Hagrid's' (or something similar) This is where my other pet theory kicks in. I just can't help it! The other pet theory I have is that Snape's eyes are actually...wait for it....green! And that he is Jame's brother and he has reasons for not telling Harry he's his uncle... OR that they are green and LV doesn't know that (because he has problems with overlooking simple details.) And that Snape has the same potential to do 'eye magic' as Harry has...but I still like the James' brother theory better...:P :D Anyways, that's about it from the wild theory factory... Mlle Bienvenu From c4bchief at yahoo.com Mon Apr 28 16:15:25 2003 From: c4bchief at yahoo.com (Joe) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:15:25 -0000 Subject: Wands and broomsticks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56347 Gina R Rosich wrote: > Hi everyone. > Somewhere along the past 150,000 threads this week was an argument about someone buying Harry a broomstick and the school replacing Ron?s wand. > On the other hand, Harry has no one. The Dursleys are not paying for Harry, do not sign permission slips, or bring him to the train, or send him owls or pay for any of his supplies. Harry is totally on his own. And not about to buy a nice racing broom. So, if McGonagall wants Harry on the team, she knows she will have to be the one supplying the broom. No one else is going to buy it for him. And, MacGonagall is a bit of an old softie. Plus, she does have a competitive streak in her. Me: I agree. This is what originally endeared me to McGonagal. I originally got the impression she was a hard nosed bitter old women. However, It was when the broom showed up that my mind opened up to another McGonagal. >From that point, It was clear she cared a bit for Harry. Canon doesn't tell us much about McGonagals history, but i always assumed (I know assuming can ya in trouble) that she didn't have any kids of her own. I'm sure even in the WW teachers aren't made wealthy, however I don't forsee Mcgonagal being anyone near the poor spectrum. So the broom was kind of a win-win situation. Harry gets a new broom, McGonagal gets a shot at showing up Snape and we all get a nice insight into the heart of McGonagal. Joe From penumbra10 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 28 16:31:17 2003 From: penumbra10 at yahoo.com (Judy) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:31:17 -0000 Subject: Could Godtric's Hollow be on Avalon? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56348 Please forgive me if this was discussed before, but since there is a good chance Harry could end up visiting Godric's Hollow in Book Five or Six, it might do to ponder this a bit: Has anyone made a suggestion as to the exact location of Godric's Hollow? If you look at a map of England, Bristol (which Hagrid mentions flying over) and Surrey are in a straight line going slightly northwest to slightly southeast of London. The problem is that Bristol is bang on the western shore of England. If Hagrid flew the most direct route, it would make absolutely no sense to overfly Bristol unless he were coming from Wales, or Ireland, or much more interestingly, the legendary isle of Avalon, (if JKR nudged it's imaginary location a bit more south of the Isle of Man.) If Godric's Hollow was indeed located on Avalon, then there are quite a few intriguing conjectures that could come of it. [Please note there are other speculative locations of Avalon, but many sources do place it somewhere out in St. George's Channel] Flying to Surrey from anywhere else in England or Scotland one would miss Bristol entirely, unless, of course, there was a reason for stopping there... Does anyone have any other ideas? --Judy, who needs Book Five quite badly as now she has taken to hallucinating rather than speculating about what comes next. From JessaDrow at aol.com Mon Apr 28 16:33:18 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 12:33:18 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wands and broomsticks Message-ID: <16a.1dce5748.2bdeb1ce@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56349 In a message dated 4/28/03 12:29:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, c4bchief at yahoo.com writes: > From that point, It was clear she cared a bit for Harry. Canon > doesn't tell us much about McGonagals history, but i always assumed > (I know assuming can ya in trouble) that she didn't have any kids of > her own. I'm sure even in the WW teachers aren't made wealthy, > however I don't forsee Mcgonagal being anyone near the poor spectrum. > >From the beginning of the book it was clear she cared for Harry, she camped outside the Dursley's house, all day waiting for Dumbledore to show up, I doubt it was just to get the gossip from him. ~Faith~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From katie.jarvis1 at ntlworld.com Mon Apr 28 16:30:27 2003 From: katie.jarvis1 at ntlworld.com (addictedtobass2003) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:30:27 -0000 Subject: Snape related to Harry's parents? I don't think so In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56350 "mlle_bienvenu" said: <> Now me: Is James' eye colour mentioned in canon? I personally don't recall it, but if you have a reference to it, feel free to prove me wrong. Isn't it Lily's eyes that were green? As Harry sees her the the Mirror of Erised (p153 UK version): "She was a very pretty woman. She had dark red hair and her eyes - her eyes are just like mine, Harry thought, edging a little closer to the glass. Bright green - exactly the same shape......The tall, thin, black-haired man standing next to her put his arm around her. He wore glasses, and his hair was very untidy. It stuck up at the back, just like Harry's did." By the way, i don't think the Snape Potter or Snape Evans is plausible anyway: other than the dark hair, he has little in common with James, and for them to be in the same year at Hogwarts, they would probably have to be twins, even if not identical, they would bear more of a resemblance to each other than they do. He also looks nothing like Lily, the hair and eyes are different, and the fact that they would almost definitely have to be twins to be in the same year at Hogwarts also applies here (plus there are all the "Snape loved Lily" theories around, and I don't quite think JKR would right about an incenstuous relationship in a children's novel). I think it's just too improbable, and indeed, impossible, for Snape to be closely related to either Lily or James addictedtobass2003 Katie From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 28 16:55:55 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 09:55:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lily related to the Weasleys In-Reply-To: <20030428135805.47665.qmail@web13001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030428165555.96098.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56351 --- Lea wrote: > If this is true, and I'll leave that point to others to argue, it > certainly throws a wet blanket over the Harry/Ginny possibilities. Not necessarily. ;) I think the *closest* relationship that this suggests would be that the Weasley cousin was one of Lily's parents. So if Harry's grandparent was a second cousin to Molly, that would make Harry and Ginny fifth cousins. That's a pretty distant blood relationship, and even the most stringent consanguinity statutues allow for marriage of fourth cousins and above. Just saying...*g* Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From byujava at yahoo.com Mon Apr 28 17:15:35 2003 From: byujava at yahoo.com (Kirsten Gilson) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 10:15:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wands and broomsticks In-Reply-To: <16a.1dce5748.2bdeb1ce@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030428171535.39841.qmail@web41309.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56352 --- JessaDrow at aol.com wrote: > From the beginning of the book it was clear she > cared for Harry, she camped > outside the Dursley's house, all day waiting for > Dumbledore to show up, I > doubt it was just to get the gossip from him. > > ~Faith~ I really can't wait to hear more about that day. Why was she so concerned with Harry, was she good friends with the Potters? Why wasn't she out celebrating with everyone else. Was there a plan to use the Dursleys already, and that's why she knew to wait there? Sorry if some of these are answered in SS, but I don't have it with me to check. I hope they talk a lot about that day, giving a time line and all that. Kirsten __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From bard7696 at aol.com Mon Apr 28 17:54:32 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 17:54:32 -0000 Subject: Wands and broomsticks In-Reply-To: <20030428171535.39841.qmail@web41309.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56353 Kirsten: > I really can't wait to hear more about that day. Why > was she so concerned with Harry, was she good friends > with the Potters? This is yet more evidence, to me, that Lily and James were in Gryffindor and therefore members of McGonagall's house. There is a wonderful timeline of that day at the lexicon. You also have to remember, according to the timeline we have, Lily and James were only a couple years out of Hogwarts when they had Harry. (One reason I'm REALLY annoyed that Gary Oldman, fine actor that he is, is playing Sirius Black in the film-- should have been Sean Bean! Oldman is just too much of an OLD MAN!) Was there a plan to use the Dursleys > already, and that's why she knew to wait there? She knew to wait there, having wheedled the information out of Hagrid, but I don't think she knew about the Dursleys. She had been investigating them all day. Darrin -- Oldman is an oldman. Hah! I kill me. From tammy at mauswerks.net Mon Apr 28 18:20:43 2003 From: tammy at mauswerks.net (Tammy Rizzo) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:20:43 -0400 Subject: Actor's ages (was Wands and broomsticks) In-Reply-To: References: <20030428171535.39841.qmail@web41309.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3EAD38BB.21634.5DFAB3@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 56354 On 28 Apr 2003 at 17:54, darrin_burnett wrote: > There is a wonderful timeline of that day at the lexicon. You also > have to remember, according to the timeline we have, Lily and James > were only a couple years out of Hogwarts when they had Harry. (One > reason I'm REALLY annoyed that Gary Oldman, fine actor that he is, is > playing Sirius Black in the film-- should have been Sean Bean! Oldman > is just too much of an OLD MAN!) > > Darrin Okay, point of order here (or maybe not an actual point of order, but a point, at least). I looked 'em up. Sean bean was born in 1959. He's 44 this year. Gary Oldman was born in 1958. He's only 45 this year. That's not much difference, Darrin. ;-) Besides, I've seen Gary Oldman look quite young, and I've seen him look quite old, both quite recently. It's called makeup artists. And Snape is only in his late thirties, right? Thus spoke JKR in an interview, when she told us McGonnagal was in her 70's and Dumbledore in his 150's. Alan Rickman does a very convincing late-thirties for a guy in his fifties. Who says Gary Oldman couldn't do a very convincing late-thirties, too, huh? Besides, he's a much better fit for the physical description of Sirius than Sean Bean is -- lanky, harrowed, looks like death warmed over . . . Gary's good at that look. Actually, I guess this could be called a point of order, because if we go any further on this topic, it really should be moved over to the Movie list, huh? Sorry, I'll shut up now about actors and ages and stuff like that. :-) *** Tammy tammy at mauswerks.net From kkearney at students.miami.edu Mon Apr 28 18:33:24 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 18:33:24 -0000 Subject: McGonagall and baby Harry (was Re: Wands and broomsticks) In-Reply-To: <16a.1dce5748.2bdeb1ce@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56355 Faith wrote: > From the beginning of the book it was clear she cared for Harry, she >camped > outside the Dursley's house, all day waiting for Dumbledore to show >up, I > doubt it was just to get the gossip from him. No books, so this is from memory. But I always got the impression that McGonagall didn't know Dumbledore was bringing Harry to the Dursley's home to live. Her reaction, when Dumbledore says this, is shock. She mentions that she has been observing them all day and they couldn't be more different from wizards. Her dislike for the Dursleys seems to be based solely on her observations that day. This to me says she knew nothing about the Dursleys (did she even know they were related to Lilly?) before that day. I think she _was_ waiting for the "gossip", or rather the full true story which she knew only Dumbledore could provide. She knew (how, who knows) that Dumbledore was planning to arrive at 4 Privet Drive that night, and so she waited there. Not that I don't think she cares about Harry. I think she was genuinely concerned for baby Harry when she learned he was going to live with the Dursleys. But I don't think it was concern for Harry that brought her to Privet Drive in the first place, rather a need for information. -Corinth From JessaDrow at aol.com Mon Apr 28 18:39:02 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:39:02 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wands and broomsticks Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56356 In a message dated 4/28/03 1:32:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, byujava at yahoo.com writes: > I really can't wait to hear more about that day. Why > was she so concerned with Harry, was she good friends > with the Potters? Why wasn't she out celebrating with > everyone else. Was there a plan to use the Dursleys > already, and that's why she knew to wait there? Sorry > if some of these are answered in SS, but I don't have > it with me to check. I hope they talk a lot about > that day, giving a time line and all that. > I'm sure that Lily and James sat down and discussed where they'd want Harry to go, if anything happened to them. I can't imagine them not wanting Black. Now I know he was a traitor and all that, but they didn't know that at the time. I also can't imagine them ever agreeing that Harry should go to the Dursley's. They Potters obviously had a large circle of close friends, surely there was someone more capable of taking care of the baby.Heck, why couldn't Arebella have raised him, that way he would have grown up knowing who he and his family was. ~Faith~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From JessaDrow at aol.com Mon Apr 28 18:42:19 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:42:19 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] McGonagall and baby Harry (was Re: Wands and broomsticks) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56357 In a message dated 4/28/03 2:35:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kkearney at students.miami.edu writes: > Not that I don't think she cares about Harry. I think she was > genuinely concerned for baby Harry when she learned he was going to > live with the Dursleys. But I don't think it was concern for Harry > that brought her to Privet Drive in the first place, rather a need for > information. > I went back and reread that part, and yes she didn't know that Dumbledore was going to leave Harry there, I guess I always assumed she would know whom the Dursley's were. ~Faith~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gallo at wpaccs.com Mon Apr 28 18:08:53 2003 From: gallo at wpaccs.com (Amy) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 18:08:53 -0000 Subject: Against all odds, Harry isn't a mass murderer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56358 > Fandulin wrote: > > > Have anyone else ever marvelled at how well adjusted and socially > > competent Harry turned out, having grown up with the Dursleys? and Martha said: > >> Of course, it is arguable that Harry isn't 100% well adjusted anyway. > He is plagued with highly disturbing nightmares which actually seem > to get worse over time (PTSD, anyone?). When he encounters Sirius in > the Shrieking Shack at the end of PoA, he is entirely consumed by > rage, he tries to attack him (fair enough in the circumstances maybe, > but I know people who would make a cup of St John's Wort and suggest > a time-out. Then again, I live in Brighton). ;-) ME: I agree that our dear Harry is doing extraordinarily well for himself, but you got me to thinking...is it possible that he's not mature enough, emotionally, to realize the dimension of what he's been living with? By this I mean, the enormity of losing both his parents, having no family worth speaking of, enduring the Dursleys with their probable physical abuse and certainly emotional/mental abuse/abandonment, not to mention having Voldemort after his head all the time? Does he understand completely how awful this is? I'm sure he does to some extent, but I guess what I'm trying to say is yes, he's doing well now, but when he grows up (uh, let's hope he does ;)) and he begins to see things from an 'adult' perspective, will he be able to deal with it? What if his support structure - being Dumbledore, McGonagall, Ron, Hermione, Hagrid, etc. - are not there for him anymore for whatever reason? Especially if he's ostracized in the WW and is feeling alone and 'targeted'? I just hope it doesn't catch up to him someday. ~Quidditchmom...who is sure James and Lily are quite proud of their son wherever they are... From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Mon Apr 28 19:00:36 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (hagrid) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 21:00:36 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: If Snape is a vampire, he isn't bothered by sunlight... References: Message-ID: <002c01c30db8$751bb700$ca48243e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 56359 Mlle Bienvenu wrote: Ah! You've hit upon a pet theory of mine! (or rather two pet theories that are interlinked) 1: Eats and Drinks like a normal person. 2: Snape is not affected by the sun. Exactly what field of study is Snape most proficient at? What class does Snape teach? Potions. And how is he described? Greasy...put two and two together, you get.....Sunblock! As for the eating and blood craving thing, since there's a Werewolve's Bane Potion, I've no doubt there is also a Vampire's Bane Potion as well, which could very well be Snape's motivation for becomeing proficient in potions anyway. Snape being who he is, is going to want to make the stuff himself... I also believe that he wears sun blocking contact lenses, which is why his eyes are described as 'beetle black, but with none of the warmth of Hagrid's' (or something similar) This is where my other pet theory kicks in. I just can't help it! The other pet theory I have is that Snape's eyes are actually...wait for it....green! And that he is Jame's brother and he has reasons for not telling Harry he's his uncle... OR that they are green and LV doesn't know that (because he has problems with overlooking simple details.) And that Snape has the same potential to do 'eye magic' as Harry has...but I still like the James' brother theory better...:P :D Anyways, that's about it from the wild theory factory... Me: HEHEHE, You got me there!!! But listen, if his eyes are green, he's really related to Lilly and not James, and listen here, take Snape's name, SEVERUS SNAPE is an anagram for Perseus Evans, coincidence???? Lilly's maiden name was Evans, we know that for sure, so.... Maybe you're right, who knows. "Rubeus Hagrid" From stix4141 at hotmail.com Mon Apr 28 19:36:10 2003 From: stix4141 at hotmail.com (stickbook41) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19:36:10 -0000 Subject: Lily related to the Weasleys/The Old Crowd In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56360 Linda: > Color seems to be a major componant of the books in several > different ways (ie Harry's bright green eyes etc.). Is it just > coincidence that Lily, like the entire Weasley family, has red hair? > Ron states that he thinks his mother has "a second cousin that's an > accountant or something" on the Hogwarts express in SS. Could it be > that there were more squibs in her family, maybe one of Lily and > Petunia's grandparents perhaps? Me: I have to say, I don't think that Lily (and therefore Harry) is related to the Weasleys, for one major reason: None of the Weasleys seemed to recognize Harry on sight upon first meeting him. Maybe they were just pretending, but why would they do that? This is also the reason that I don't think Molly and Arthur were included in Dumbledore's "old crowd." I find this surprising considering the people that *did* recognize him--Daedelus Diggle, Mr. Ollivander, and toothless Tom, the innkeeper of the Leaky Cauldron. I have a soft theory that we'll see more of Diggle and Ollivander (maybe not Tom), as well as Figg and Fletcher, because they were all part of the Old Crowd, where they had intimate contact with Lily & Harry'sDoppelganger!James. What do you think? Cheers! -stickbook From rayheuer3 at aol.com Mon Apr 28 18:54:02 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:54:02 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: More on Dursleys Message-ID: <1d0.851bee4.2bded2ca@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56361 ladilyndi at yahoo.com writes: > The reason I have that impression is how quickly > Harry was moved from his closet into the small > bedroom after receiving the letter - even over > Duddy Dinkums objections. IMO, the reason the Dursleys moved Harry from the cupboard to "Dudley's second bedroom' (And doesn't THAT description speak volumes?) was that the original letter to Harry had been addressed, in part, "the cupboard under the stairs". This awoke, in Uncle Vernon, at least, the fear that the house had been watched all this time. When more letters arrived addressed, in part, "the smallest bedroom", his fears were confirmed and off they went. Uncle Vernon is not a man easily beaten, however. I would have given up trying to flee after receiving the letter addressed to "Harry Potter, Room 17, Railview Hotel, Cokeworth" -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Mon Apr 28 18:38:01 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 11:38:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lily related to the Weasleys In-Reply-To: <20030428135805.47665.qmail@web13001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030428183801.68372.qmail@web21209.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56362 --- Lea wrote: > Linda wrote: > > OK. Maybe I'm a little crazy here but > >hear me out and let me > >know what you think. > > > Color seems to be a major componant of > >the books in several > >different ways (ie Harry's bright green eyes > >etc.). Is it just > >coincidence that Lily, like the entire > >Weasley family, has red hair? > >Ron states that he thinks his mother has "a > >second cousin that's an > >accountant or something" on the Hogwarts > >express in SS. Could it be > >that there were more squibs in her family, > >maybe one of Lily and > >Petunia's grandparents perhaps? A magical > >family history would also > >explain why Petunia said that her parents > >were "so proud to have a > >witch in the family". Maybe, to them it was > >not an unexpected > >occurance but something that they had hoped > >for. > > > Lea: > > If this is true, and I'll leave that point to > others to argue, it certainly throws a wet > blanket over the Harry/Ginny possibilities. Me: Don't forget the other red head in the book - Dumbledore himself. And as for those green eyes, well, if there is cross-species breeding, my money would be on Lily having an ancestor of Dobby somewhere in her lineage. It sure would explain the short people Harry saw in the Mirror. LOL Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From melclaros at yahoo.com Mon Apr 28 20:05:24 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 20:05:24 -0000 Subject: I Hate Snape... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56363 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > > My prediction for Snape, if he survives the big showdown? As soon as it is confirmed that V-Mort is gone for good this time, he marches > into Dumbledore's office and says, "Headmaster, take this job and > stick it. I'm going somewhere where I will never, ever see another > little brat bastard again." > > And the he will run into Harry and Ron and Hermione on the way out > and say: > > "Mr. Potter. Top marks for your work against Voldemort. But your dad was STILL an asshole." > > "Miss Granger. Please send me an owl and tell me what job you get, so I can take pains to avoid you for the rest of our lives." > > "Mr. Weasley. My only regret is that I am leaving too soon to see the last of the Weasleys." Now me; GOD I HOPE SO! I hope Every Word of that is true, I really do. I've heard SO MUCH about how Snape's character was "gutted" in GoF when it turned out "once and for all" that he was on the side of the good guys. Well I disagree. Just because he is (is he?) on the right side doesn't mean he has to be NICE about it! Look the guy is unpleasant. Fascinating, brilliant and some would say sexy as all get out, but yes--unpleasant at times. JKR herself calls him "deeply horrible" (snort--I think she has a crush on him too). But you have to admit he IS one of, if not THE most interesting character in the entire series and the fact he's wreathed in mystery makes him downright fascinating. Chances are he's a man who has given up EVERYTHING for a cause. No, we don't yet know what that cause is, but we will. Someone who has given up EVERYTHING and has ended up living the way we see him living--and facing the possible futures we see laid out for him at the present time is BOUND to be bitter and certainly Deserves to tell everyone around him to go straight to hell when all the dust settles. Mel > From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 28 19:39:45 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 12:39:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Harry's guardianship (was re: Wands and broomsticks) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030428193945.7560.qmail@web10901.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56364 --- Faith wrote: > I'm sure that Lily and James sat down and discussed where they'd want > Harry to go, if anything happened to them. I can't imagine them not > wanting Black. > Now I know he was a traitor and all that, but they didn't know that at > the time. I also can't imagine them ever agreeing that Harry should go to > the Dursley's. They Potters obviously had a large circle of close friends, > surely there was someone more capable of taking care of the baby.Heck, why > couldn't Arebella have raised him, that way he would have grown up knowing > who he and his family was. I'm sure that Lily and James would have wanted Harry to go anywhere else but the Dursleys, but unfortunately they weren't alive to make that determination by this point. They appointed Sirius Harry's guardian, but since Sirius was, ah, incapacitated, there wouldn't then be a general cattle call of "hey, who wants Harry?" If no secondary guardian is appointed, then the blood relatives would be the next line. (This is especially suited to Dumbledore's requirements, of course, if his "ancient magic" requires the blood link, as speculated.) If there are no relatives to be found, THEN family friends may be asked to take the child in instead of sending him to an orphanage, but they wouldn't get priority over family. Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From fandulin at hotmail.com Mon Apr 28 20:39:30 2003 From: fandulin at hotmail.com (fandulin) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 20:39:30 -0000 Subject: Against all odds, Harry isn't a mass murderer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56365 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "martha" wrote: > Along with all this, though, I'm going to throw in a couple of > annoying thoughts on the matter - I believe that Harry is well- > adjusted and noble and sociable and all the rest of it because JK > Rowling didn't want to write "A Child Called It". She could have > done - "Once upon a time there was a boy called Harry Potter, and he > was treated so badly he couldn't sustain a normal relationsip in his > adolescence, so he received ECT and Ritalin and got taken into care, > etc etc etc" - but she didn't. She wanted to write about Harry > Potter, the boy who lived, Gryffindor extraordinaire, school > champion, king of quidditch and all-round Good Bloke. (And yay that > she did.) Actually, Martha, that's a wonderful answer, and the one that most often jumps into my head when I go into my flights of over- analyzation. However I can't help myself from dissecting things from time to time. Some things aren't going to correspond to the most likely case in our "muggle world" where there is a syndrome for everything, valid or not. The brilliance of J.K. Rowling IMO is that she makes people want to dig deeper and ponder the details because her world IS so real and human. Hallmark of an awesome writer. I agree however, that we wouldn't want Harry the Ritalin popping Columbine kid stalking the halls of Hogwarts. Fandulin From silver_wendigo at yahoo.com Mon Apr 28 21:01:56 2003 From: silver_wendigo at yahoo.com (silver_wendigo) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 21:01:56 -0000 Subject: Snape Theory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56366 Okay, this is partly in reply to a post of Darrin's saying something about Snape perhaps hating muggle borns...but I sent the post off to an elf to see if my theory was already documented and I just hadn't seen it...got it back with permission to post but...I forgot which post I was replying to! Sorry! Anyway, here's what I was intending to send. I don't know if I agree that Snape hates muggle borns. Obviously, as a Slytherin, it's likely that he has a bias against them, but the only people I've seen him really treat as though he hated are Harry, Lupin, and Sirius...people who have to do with his past...one of whom we know isn't muggle born! But as to his behavior with other students... Neville is from a wizarding family, not muggle born. And he sees Hermione as a know it all, which is, in my opinion, the source of his ire, rather then the blood in her veins. I have a theory which I didn't see listed in the vfaq or anywhere else, so I'll put it out here. I think Neville is a target because he is extremely incompetant at something which Snape cares a lot about - potions. Snape deals his annoyance with Neville by bullying him. To dip into psychology a little, he was teased as a kid due to characteristics about him that other people thought were strange or didn't like. So Snape's solution to seeing something he doesn't like in another person is to do what was done to him. The same tendancy is seen with Moaning Myrtle at the end of Chapter 12 of CoS(pg226)...she was teased a lot, and that teasing indirectly lead to her death...but yet she teases Hermione about the effects of the polyjuice potion. As for Hermione, as I said, he sees her as a know it all, and for some reason that really bothers him (which maybe has something to do with someone in Snape's past who Hermione reminds him of), so he treats her poorly as a result. "Silver Wendigo" From meboriqua at aol.com Mon Apr 28 21:11:54 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 21:11:54 -0000 Subject: Why I hate Hagrid (was: I Hate Snape...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56367 Joywitch said, trying to butter me up: > > Jenny, you are a wonderful human being, a charming individual, and > > one of my most favorite people ever, but you are SO wrong about > > Hagrid. Wrong wrong wrong.> and Darrin responded with: > You tell her, Joy! :) I made it two weeks on this board again before > Jenny and I got the Hagrid thing started.> Knock it off, you two! Bonding over your support of Hagrid - feh! Pushing me to start slammin' Hagrid again, just so you can say how great he is - bah! I'll just tell you why I dislike Hagrid so much, and I'll stand by my dislike even if I am the only one of all the 6800+ members of HPFGU to do so. Here goes: Jenny's Top 10 Reasons to Dislike Hagrid: 1. He has a big mouth (leaks information to the Trio that he shouldn't have in SS and says way too much to Rita Skeeter in the interview he knew he shouldn't have done). 2. Clearly breaks wizarding laws (uses magic when with Harry and harbors a baby dragon in SS). 3. Encourages children to be dishonest (asks Harry not to mention his use of magic illegally in SS). 4. Allows his temper to get the best of him, causing damage to others (granted, it is only in relation to Dumbledore, but really, did he have to give Dudley a pig's tail?). 5. He's a terrible, horrible, awful, inept teacher - he'd even be fired from the NYC public school system (where I work), and that's quite a feat! 6. He cries too much (people are going to hate me for that one, but a teacher who openly cries in front of the students - that's baaaaad). 7. He drinks when his job seems to keep him on call all the time. 8. He leans too much on the Trio. 9. Puts others in danger (remember Norbert? He not only allowed the Trio to help him with the baby dragon, he also said nothing to defend them when they got in trouble or injured as a result. He also sent Ron and Harry straight to the monster spiders). 10. He has bad taste (remember the horrible hairy suit? Blech). So go ahead - let me have it! Let's get the Great Hagrid Debate up and running again. Darrin, I'm sure you'll tear me to bits. --jenny from ravenclaw, who, unlike Hagrid, is not afraid of who she is and she is someone who does not like Hagrid! ************************************************ From meboriqua at aol.com Mon Apr 28 20:47:51 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 20:47:51 -0000 Subject: More on Dursleys In-Reply-To: <002501c30d2b$6a698180$189d253e@takun> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56368 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hagrid" wrote: > Me: > Dumbledore's letter was for the Dursleys > > "It's the best place for him," said Dumbledore firmly. "His aunt and uncle will be able to explain everything to him when he's older. I've written them a letter."> Aha! You found what I was trying to. However, Ray pointed out that *Hagrid* thought the letter was for Harry, not the Dursleys. Hagrid even says in SS, chapter 4: "You never told him? Never told him what was in the letter Dumbledore left for him?" This was said when Hagrid was simply flabbergasted that the Dursleys never once breathed a word to Harry about who he really was. I think the letter Dumbledore wrote was intended for the Dursleys, with the expectation that they'd let Harry know about his parents and his wizarding heritage when he was old enough to handle it. I'm not sure if anyone predicted that the Dursleys wouldn't tell Harry a thing. The problem with Hagrid's reaction to the Dursleys is that what he says is not first hand. We also know that Hagrid himself is capable of spreading rumors, such as his comment about there not being a witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't in Slytherin. We can't quite trust that the letter was really written for Harry just because Hagrid said so. --jenny from ravenclaw, never a Hagrid fan ************************************************** From jenP_97 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 28 21:56:41 2003 From: jenP_97 at yahoo.com (Jennifer Piersol) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 21:56:41 -0000 Subject: Why I hate Hagrid (was: I Hate Snape...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56369 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jenny_ravenclaw" wrote: > Jenny's Top 10 Reasons to Dislike Hagrid: > 5. He's a terrible, horrible, awful, inept teacher - he'd even be > fired from the NYC public school system (where I work), and that's > quite a feat! me: I'm going to add to this - Hagrid irks me as a teacher to no end, and while I don't *hate* him, per se, I really think he's a horrible teacher... 5a. He gives up too easily. Evidence? Flobberworms. I mean, come on. A student goes against what you say and gets hurt. He recovers. You're under scrutiny, but you have the headmaster's support. Sure, you're under stress. But as a teacher, you still have a responsibility to TEACH YOUR STUDENTS!!! The only way you're let out of this responsibility is if you're fired or suspended. Hagrid was neither. However, he took this setback and just gave up on teaching his students anything except that the best way to keep flobberworms alive was to leave them alone. I hate to say it, but Draco had the right idea in trying to get him sacked as a teacher. Groundskeeper? No problem. Hell, give him his wand back. But PLEASE... let's have a new COMC teacher in OOP while Hagrid's out on D's mission... > So go ahead - let me have it! Let's get the Great Hagrid Debate up > and running again. Darrin, I'm sure you'll tear me to bits. > > --jenny from ravenclaw, who, unlike Hagrid, is not afraid of who she > is and she is someone who does not like Hagrid! > ************************************************ -Jen P, who wouldn't go as far as jenny, but as a teacher, also has major problems with him. From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Apr 28 22:27:36 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 22:27:36 -0000 Subject: If Snape is a vampire, he isn't bothered by sunlight... In-Reply-To: <005301c30c62$bb0b8ad0$4a5b253e@takun> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56370 Izaskun wrote: >>> i don't think he's a vampire, a half-vampire or anything near it. He's not affected by sun, he's not afected by garlic, and he eats and drink like a normal person. Doesn't look like a vampire to me. I think JK was just trying to describe him, and the bat-alike description is a very powerful image, that's all. But again, maybe I'm wrong. << Snape's appearances in daylight are, to me, suspicioiusly seldom. Snape is out in full sun at the Gryffindor/Slytherin Quidditch match in Book Three. When he referees the Gryffindor/Hufflepuff match in Book One, it's so late in the day that owls are hooting by the time Harry gets out of the showers after a very brief match. Otherwise, we see Snape only indoors or at night. His dungeon and office are windowless. Surely a potion or some such could protect Snape from sunlight for brief periods. How do we know that Snape isn't affected by garlic, and eats and drinks like a normal person? Pippin From the_fox01 at hotmail.com Mon Apr 28 21:47:38 2003 From: the_fox01 at hotmail.com (The Fox) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 17:47:38 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why I hate Hagrid (was: I Hate Snape...) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56371 From: "jenny_ravenclaw" >Here goes: > >Jenny's Top 10 Reasons to Dislike Hagrid: >1. He has a big mouth (leaks information to the Trio that he shouldn't have >in SS and says way too much to Rita Skeeter in the interview he knew he >shouldn't have done). He's not very shrewd, this is true. Poor guy. He's not the sharpest knife in the drawer, Hagrid isn't. If I disliked everybody I thought wasn't very bright ... >2. Clearly breaks wizarding laws (uses magic when with Harry and harbors a >baby dragon in SS). Feh. I've clearly broken laws for years -- I smoked before I was eighteen, I drank before I was twenty-one, and I often drive a little too fast. A law is not a good law, and worthy of obedience, merely by virtue of its being a law ... is it? In particular, we've seen that some wizarding laws are downright unreasonable, such as the proscription against wand-use by non-humans. There are other law-breaking characters in the Harry Potter canon, and we don't dislike every blinkin' last one of them. >3. Encourages children to be dishonest (asks Harry not to mention his use >of magic illegally in SS). He doesn't ask Harry to tell a lie (which Harry can decide to do quite well on his own); if Dumbledore or some such person had asked Harry point-blank if he'd ever seen Hagrid do magic, the decision to answer truthfully or not would be Harry's. Hagrid simply asks Harry to refrain from being the one to introduce the subject. >4. Allows his temper to get the best of him, causing damage to others >(granted, it is only in relation to Dumbledore, but really, did he have to >give Dudley a pig's tail?). Snape, as we've seen over the past couple of days, routinely lets his feelings harm students. Mad-Eye Moody *turns Draco Malfoy into a ferret.* Fred and George give Dudley a four-foot-long tongue without even the excuse that their temper got the better of them. Ain't nobody blameless. >5. He's a terrible, horrible, awful, inept teacher - he'd even be fired >from the NYC public school system (where I work), and that's quite a feat! I'll admit he's not much of a teacher. But by the time he's in his second year of teaching, he's getting the hang of it; when he comes back and picks up Professor Grubbly-Plank's lessons on unicorns, he does just as good a job teaching the kids about them as she did. >6. He cries too much (people are going to hate me for that one, but a >teacher who openly cries in front of the students - that's baaaaad). > >7. He drinks when his job seems to keep him on call all the time. These don't seem to be considered faults in the WW the way they are here. >8. He leans too much on the Trio. He does favor them rather the way Snape favors the Slytherins, doesn't he. Hmm ... >9. Puts others in danger (remember Norbert? He not only allowed the Trio >to help him with the baby dragon, he also said nothing to defend them when >they got in trouble or injured as a result. He also sent Ron and Harry >straight to the monster spiders). We don't know that he didn't try to intercede on their behalf. If I were Minerva McGonagall (and I'm not, alas, alas), I'd say something like "Really, Hagrid. Well, then you should also be ashamed of yourself. But these children should have known better than to break the rules, friend or not," and the detentions would stand. wrt Aragog, I'd bet *money* that Hagrid didn't know Aragog intended to feed Harry and Ron to the other spiders. Aragog has always commanded his sons and daughters not to harm Hagrid, and Hagrid's never brought or sent humans into the hollow before; why on earth would he suspect that being his friends wouldn't be enough to protect them? >10. He has bad taste (remember the horrible hairy suit? Blech). Touchee. :-) Fox ... Come on, Nature Just because I don't feel weak Don't mean I feel so strong. -- the Proclaimers .............................. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From d_lea25 at yahoo.ca Mon Apr 28 23:13:13 2003 From: d_lea25 at yahoo.ca (Lea) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19:13:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] McGonagall and baby Harry (was Re: Wands and broomsticks) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030428231313.20464.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56372 JessaDrow at aol.com wrote: >I went back and reread that part, and yes she >didn't know that Dumbledore was >going to leave Harry there, I guess I always >assumed she would know whom the >Dursley's were. >~Faith~ And me: I think you're right, she did know who they where - Petunia was Lilly's sister. But she was likely there for the whole day watching to see what Petunia knew about her sister and what may have happened to her and James. And after watching the Dursleys for the whole day, it never entered her head that Dumbledore would actually leave baby Harry there. No wonder she was horrified. Lea :) --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From weeoo0 at yahoo.ca Mon Apr 28 23:06:49 2003 From: weeoo0 at yahoo.ca (weeoo0) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 23:06:49 -0000 Subject: Snape is NOT Sexy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56373 Okay, I am not a regular poster on this list, as I often have a hard time alearly and concisely getting my idea's accross, but as a recent post brought up, quite innocently, a subject on which i have been expounding much thought to in the last few days, and which i spen a few hours wholeheartedly discussing as recently as yesterday, I thought I would give it a go. SNAPE IS NOT SEXY That is correct, Severus Snape, Potions Master Extroardinaire, in all his deep mysteriousness, in all his complexity, to the very depths of his possibly tortured soul, vampire or not, good or bad, Severus Snape, is not sexy. melclaros wrote: Sexy as all get out? How, Why? In PP/SS we first hear Snape described as "a teacher with Greasy black hair, a hooked nose, and sallow skin" (PP, pg 94 Can ed. soft cover) later, we read of Snape possesing eyes that "were black like Hagrid's, but they had none of Hagrids warmth. They were cold and empty, and made you think of dark tunnels." (pg102) In CoS we once again read of Snape as "a thin man with sallow skin, a hooked nose, and greasy shoulder-length black hair" (p62, sofcover) In PoA we once again note Snape's thin sallow face On GoF, it's same old, only with "overlarge nostrils" (473 US HC) Now, I simply am unable to see how such a person is considered so ...sexy ..... okay, okay, yes that is just his physical description, sallow greasy, a hooked nose, but mum always said, it's what's inside that counts. Yet still i hav a hard time understanding the intimite attraction of Snape who is, despite any possible need to present a certain persona in front of certain company, a nonetheless, spiteful, bitter, sarcastic, man. And is that what drives it, is it his bitter side that makes him attractive? The ultimate veil of possible evil which hang over his sallow thin hooknosed greasy head? Because if that is the case, I ask, why not Filch, is Filch sexy? He is bitter, spiteful, and hell, he is even capable of love, look at how well he cares for his Mrs. Norris. The man was absolutely gobsmacked when his precious was heart in CoS, he was furious, I mean to say, who can't love a man with such an affinity for an animal right?! And yet, Filch is not sexy, and in fandom far and wide, despite some of the curious ships you might find in some fanfics, the sexyness of Filch is one i rarely (never) have come accross! So why is it that Snape is sexy? Is it simply a case of movie contamination, of Rickmania, whom I have heard women, and some men, tote to be "the sexiest voice ever"? Is it fanfiction? has fanfic created a grey area between canon and fanon, whereby Snape is now a character of sexual fantasy and discourse. Is Fanfiction to blame? Or is it merely an outlet? I personally feel that Snape is one of my favorite characters. I love that he is mean, that he is sarcastic, and bitter, and spiteful, and humourless, and dark, and sallow skinned and hooknosed and greasy. I like that he is horrible to the kids, shows blatant favortism, was a DE, but fights for the good. I Like Snape, he's great! But Sexy? Certainly NOT! Sarah ! Weeoo0 From sushi at societyhappens.com Mon Apr 28 23:41:43 2003 From: sushi at societyhappens.com (Sushi) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 18:41:43 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape is NOT Sexy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030428182308.03546ca0@mail.societyhappens.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56374 >Sarah wrote: >Is it fanfiction? has fanfic created a grey area between canon and >fanon, whereby Snape is now a character of sexual fantasy and >discourse. Is Fanfiction to blame? Or is it merely an outlet? You make a frighteningly good argument. Yes, Snape is an ugly, greasy, unhealthy-looking, cruel... well, an argument could be made for "monster". However, despite all this, he's sexy as Hell. My view on things is probably a little warped, so bear with me. Filch fits most of the qualifiers. He's not exactly a GQ model, he takes great glee in scaring the bodily substances out of students en masse, and he's... let's just say he's a little odd. By that, I mean that Mrs. Norris is the love of his life (probably asexually, unless she's an Animagus - won't get into that). He's not sexy, though, because he's lacking one serious detail: POWER. The man's a Squib. On top of that, he's the groundskeeper, not a "proper" authority figure. I've never even seen an example of him being allowed to take points, something even some students (prefects) can do. Snape, on the other hand, not only has his shiny I'm A Wizard badge (with all relevant rights and secret offers), he's got authority. He can ruin your life because he feels like it, or he can reward you beyond your dreams (if you're in Slytherin). He not only *has* power, he's not afraid to use/abuse it. I think that gets into the "Why the Death Eaters?" issue, but that's another can of worms. Just for the record, I also think Voldemort is hot beyond words. Like I said, I'm a little warped. At least in my case, the Snape thing isn't based on Alan Rickman. My opinions were formed before I'd even heard he'd been cast. It's not his voice, either - my Snape's voice is significantly more sibilant and bowel-chilling, and not traditionally sexy. Alan did a brilliant job, IMO, but he's not the Snape I've got in my head. That one goes stag to dances because he can't get a date, and has been known to resort to, ah, red light districts to, er, take care of certain business. He's not a pleasant creature by any definition, yet I'm smitten. (Not complaining about Alan, mind. Just saying that taste is a funny thing.) Fanfiction has only ever been an outlet, although I'll admit I've softened him up a little too much at times. *slaps self*bad writer!* It's been said that power is the most potent aphrodisiac in the world. Snape's a good example of that. Sushi, who will refrain from writing the essay, "Why Power Hasn't Made Dumbledore Into A Sex Symbol", because, well, the man's 150 years old and doesn't flaunt the power he's got (bad Albus!) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Apr 28 23:40:24 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 23:40:24 -0000 Subject: Death In-Reply-To: <31.37b4e835.2bde5bc4@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56375 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, JessaDrow at a... wrote: > In a message dated 4/27/03 10:54:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > silver_wendigo at y... writes: > > > I'm curious as to what people's opinions are about the death that was "horrible to write". I doubt Harry, Ron, or Hermione will die (yet at least), but for a death that would be horrible to write about...I'm thinking maybe Hagrid, Mr or Mrs.Weasly, Neville, or Sirius. If not them, then Professer Lupin. But what's the general consensus? > > > > I think Dumbledore, I really think his days are numbered. > > ~Faith~ bboy_mn: I think there is a strong concensus that Dumbledore is a goner, but it's too soon; book 6 at the earliest or possibly book 7. As far as 'horrible to write', first let's remembered that JKR cried when she wrote Cedric's death. She loves all her character and knows them more intimately that we do. The death of anyone of them is the death of a loved one. Second, in a recent discussion, group members were challenged to come up with an interview that actually said 'horrible to write'. There are lots of interviews that use that as a quote, but NO interview could be found where the words were originally stated. I think there is also a concensus for Hagrid dying soon. I hate that because Hargrid is the only adult that Harry really feels comfortable turning to. For every conversation he has with Dumblefore, Harry has 10 (or more) with Hagrid. There would be a HUGE hole in Harry's adult support network if Hagrid was gone; very huge, not to mention the hole in Harry's heart. But, as much as I hate it, I guess I could live with Hagrid dying. The only aspect of Hagrid dying I couldn't live with is Hagrid being kill by the giants, or worst yet, by his own mother. I mean, DAMN (pardon the French) there is only so much tragedy that a person can stand (both me and Harry). That would be too much; that would be too tragic for me to handle. Ron and Hermione are safe right up to the very end. Sirius is safe at least until his name is cleared or almost cleared and he has developed a close relationship with Harry, then his life hangs by a thread. Remus; I think JKR loves Remus too much to kill him. She said he is her favorite character. Remus is also someone with way too much tragedy in his life, having him die would be overwhelmingly tragic. Personally, I think it will be a secondary character that moves to the forefront. For example, Colin Creevey may get on the Quidditch reserve team, and that may create a situation where Harry and Colin bond. The extra work to burn off all the excess enthusiasm, and being close to Harry for long periods of time, might mellow him out, and that would make it easier for Harry to be his friend. If that happens, Colin is as good as dead. Could be Cho, I see a situation where Harry and Cho are at odd and their relationship is very tense at first, but gradually they come to an understanding, and get closer. They turn to each other for a comfort from Cedric's death that only they can understand. They may not have a social friendship, but I think they may develop a private intimate (non-sexual) relationship in which they comfort each other, and Harry grows to depend on her for a type of close emotional suport that he can't get from Ron or Hermione. If that happens, Cho is dead as a rat under the tires of an 18-wheeler (lorry to you british). Neville could die, certianly may people think he will, but I think it is too soon for him. His character needs to develop a lot more. There are many many of us who think that there are great things in store for Neville, and those great things will take time to develope in the story. If he does die, it will be a brave, couragious, grand, and heroic death. That is my story, and I AM sticking to it. bboy_mn From spottydog at worldnet.att.net Mon Apr 28 23:22:21 2003 From: spottydog at worldnet.att.net (CARRIE MUNGAI) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 18:22:21 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Death References: <31.37b4e835.2bde5bc4@aol.com> Message-ID: <004d01c30ddd$5ee67180$afeb560c@s0023817978> No: HPFGUIDX 56376 I have also speculated about "the death that was horrible to write". Unfortunately, I believe it will be Hagrid for several reasons. His unswerving loyalty to Dumbledore which could cause him to sacfrifice himself, his fascination with dangerous beasts which could be used as a lure, and the interview Robbie Coltrane gave that hinted that something would happen. I hope I'm wrong. Spottydog From fandulin at hotmail.com Mon Apr 28 23:30:52 2003 From: fandulin at hotmail.com (fandulin) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 23:30:52 -0000 Subject: Death In-Reply-To: <31.37b4e835.2bde5bc4@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56377 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, JessaDrow at a... wrote: > In a message dated 4/27/03 10:54:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > silver_wendigo at y... writes: > > > I'm curious as to what people's opinions are about the death that > > was "horrible to write". I doubt Harry, Ron, or Hermione will die > > (yet at least), but for a death that would be horrible to write > > about...I'm thinking maybe Hagrid, Mr or Mrs.Weasly, Neville, or > > Sirius. If not them, then Professer Lupin. But what's the general > > consensus? > > > > I think Dumbledore, I really think his days are numbered. > > ~Faith~ I've got to agree, as sad as that is. Voldemort has been humiliated by Harry, on the first day he returns. He has to regain credibility, and a perfect way to do that is to kill off Dumbledore. That leaves him in full, unquestioned command of the Death Eaters for the remaining books. We've also been told that we're going to learn why some people become ghosts when they die, and some don't. I believe that Dumbledore will be killed, probably by Voldemort but not face to face. It will be through some sneaky, underhanded manner. Dumbledore will come back as a ghost for the rest of the series to guide Harry and the wizarding world, bereft of most of his powers, but not his wisdom. Maybe. Who knows:) Fandulin From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Apr 28 23:53:12 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 23:53:12 -0000 Subject: Lily related to the Weasleys In-Reply-To: <20030428165555.96098.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56378 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Andrea wrote: > --- Lea wrote: >...edited... > > So if Harry's grandparent was a second cousin to Molly, that would > make Harry and Ginny fifth cousins. ...edited... > > Just saying...*g* > > > Andrea bboy_mn: Since it's Arthur who has Red hair wouldn't the blood connection have to be to Arthur? Or for that matter to any one of a zillion Irish families? Unless I'm mistake the the anomaly of red hair occurs primarily in the Irish and perhaps siginificantly in the Scotish too. Let's not forget that besides the mysterious Weasley cousin, there is also an uncle they don't talk about who is an accountant. Just thought. bboy_mn From bard7696 at aol.com Tue Apr 29 00:02:09 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 00:02:09 -0000 Subject: Why I hate Hagrid (was: I Hate Snape...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56379 Jenny, First, I hate to do this, but I am leaving first thing tomorrow morning for a business trip to Minnesota and will be away from a computer for several days. So...I'll respond to this, but if you want to keep the debate going past the morning, can I ask you to e-mail the relevant posts to me? It'll make it easier to get ahold of them when I get back and start wading through the posts. (This goes for any topic, by the way, for any of my fellow posters.) I'll be back sometime Sunday. > Jenny's Top 10 Reasons to Dislike Hagrid: > 1. He has a big mouth (leaks information to the Trio that he shouldn't have in SS and says way too much to Rita Skeeter in the interview he knew he shouldn't have done). Rita barely quoted him in that interview. She got most of her information from skulking around as a beetle during a PRIVATE conversation between Hagrid and Madame Maxime. The quotes came from her twisting things around. As for the information in SS, well, he kept trying to discourage them, but yeah, he slipped a bit. Let's all HATE him. (Sarcasm -- get used to it in this post.) :) > 2. Clearly breaks wizarding laws (uses magic when with Harry and > harbors a baby dragon in SS). Then we should hate Harry and Ron for going into the Forbidden Forest, Harry for sneaking off to Hogsmeade under the cloak, Hermione for stealing potion materials from Snape, Draco for well, tons of stuff, and Dumbledore for giving them points for doing so. We must uphold one standard for all, after all. > 3. Encourages children to be dishonest (asks Harry not to mention his use of magic illegally in SS). I somehow think that didn't set Harry off on his life of rule- breaking. > 4. Allows his temper to get the best of him, causing damage to others (granted, it is only in relation to Dumbledore, but really, did he have to give Dudley a pig's tail?). All true. And all applicable to Moody and Snape as well. Must hate them. > 5. He's a terrible, horrible, awful, inept teacher - he'd even be > fired from the NYC public school system (where I work), and that's > quite a feat! Now, here is where we break down. I freely admit that Hagrid made some mistakes in PoA. But there are some things he did that are considered mistakes that I do not think are. Mistake #1: Not inserting a note with the book list to stroke the binder of the Biting Books. Not-a-Mistake #1: Starting with Hippogriffs. The lesson was going WELL, until Draco, who had refused to listen to the lesson, screwed it up. It was challenging, but hey, isn't that a good thing? It was Draco's fault, and only his. Blaming the teacher is what gives rise to little brats like Draco in the first place. "My kid couldn't have done this!" Not-a-Mistake #2: Downshifting to flobberworms. A kid got hurt. He can hardly be blamed for wanting something easier and safer. Mistake #2: STICKING with flobberworms the entire year. Yeah, he carried it too damn long. NOW... to GoF. The Blast-Ended Skrewts were challenging, but so what? And he didn't back off from them. And more importantly, he adapted, and guess what, IMPROVED on Grubby- Plank's lesson. She brought in unicorns that half the class -- the boys -- couldn't participate in. Hagrid involved the entire class. That makes him better than her in my eyes. He has grown as a teacher, which is something Snape, Trelawney (my vote for worst), haven't done. > 6. He cries too much (people are going to hate me for that one, but a teacher who openly cries in front of the students - that's baaaaad) There has never been an indication that he favors the Trio in class. He obviously cares for them, and has a special bond with Harry. But, in class? I think it's tough to find a spot where he gave them first preference. Again, we're talking about someone who knew these people before he became a teacher. > 7. He drinks when his job seems to keep him on call all the time. Not his job as a teacher. Maybe his job as a gamekeeper, but not his job as a teacher. And there has been no indication that his drinking - - which has only been out of control the one time in PoA after Buckbeak attacked Malfoy -- has affected his teaching. > 8. He leans too much on the Trio. Ah, but he has also been instrumental in repairing a rift between the Trio. He was the one Hermione leaned on when Harry and Ron wouldn't talk to her after she told about the Firebolt and he gave Ron a stern and wise lecture about pets. "I'd have thought you value your friend more than broomsticks and rats," is an excellent line from a teacher, don't you think? > 9. Puts others in danger (remember Norbert? He not only allowed the Trio to help him with the baby dragon, he also said nothing to defend them when they got in trouble or injured as a result. He also sent Ron and Harry straight to the monster spiders). We don't know that he said nothing to defend them. And he also doesn't consider Aragog dangerous. Perhaps that is a problem, but he honestly didn't feel he was sending them into danger. > 10. He has bad taste (remember the horrible hairy suit? Blech). Now that's just catty. Snape could wash his hair once in a while too and Lupin could buy a new robe once in a while. > So go ahead - let me have it! Let's get the Great Hagrid Debate up > and running again. Darrin, I'm sure you'll tear me to bits. Nah... I do agree that Hagrid is still finding his way as a teacher, but at least he seems interested enough to try, which is more than you can say for Snape. Darrin -- The Not-A-Mistakes would be a lousy name for a band From william.truderung at sympatico.ca Tue Apr 29 00:16:55 2003 From: william.truderung at sympatico.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 00:16:55 -0000 Subject: Teacher Ratings (Was: Why I hate Hagrid (was: I Hate Snape...)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56380 OK, as long as we are discussing Hogwarts teachers, let's look at all of them. I will start with 8 points, and subtract points for problems with the teacher. This is, of course, subjective, but I am open to other ideas. In alphabetical order: Binns - Magical History - 3 points (lack of useful curriculum, minus 3 points, inability to hold student's attention, minus 2 points) Hagrid, Care of Magical Creatures - 4 points (lack of proper classroom safety precautions, minus 2 points, lack of proper curriculum, minus 2 points) Flitwick - Charms - 8 points (no problems) McGonnagall - Transfiguration - 7 points (somewhat unfair with house points (against Gryffindor), minus 1 point) Snape - Potions - 0 points (grossly unfair with house points, minus 3 points, cruel to targeted students, minus 4 points, undercuts other teachers, minus 1 point) Sprout - Herbology - 8 points (no problems) Trelawney - Divination - 3 points (shows favoritism with students, minus 1 point, lack of ability in own field, minus 3 points, poor classroom conditions, minus 1 point) I really don't have enough information to make a judgement on the following: Hooch - Flying & Quidditch Sinistra - Astronomy Vector - Arithmancy ? - Muggle Studies ? - Ancient Runes ? - Defence Against Dark Arts Bill From robeeena at hotmail.com Mon Apr 28 21:17:47 2003 From: robeeena at hotmail.com (Robin K) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:17:47 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why I hate Hagrid Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56381 >>>>>>>>>>>>> Jenny's Top 10 Reasons to Dislike Hagrid: 1. He has a big mouth (leaks information to the Trio that he shouldn't have in SS and says way too much to Rita Skeeter in the interview he knew he shouldn't have done). 2. Clearly breaks wizarding laws (uses magic when with Harry and harbors a baby dragon in SS). 3. Encourages children to be dishonest (asks Harry not to mention his use of magic illegally in SS). 4. Allows his temper to get the best of him, causing damage to others (granted, it is only in relation to Dumbledore, but really, did he have to give Dudley a pig's tail?). 5. He's a terrible, horrible, awful, inept teacher - he'd even be fired from the NYC public school system (where I work), and that's quite a feat! 6. He cries too much (people are going to hate me for that one, but a teacher who openly cries in front of the students - that's baaaaad). 7. He drinks when his job seems to keep him on call all the time. 8. He leans too much on the Trio. 9. Puts others in danger (remember Norbert? He not only allowed the Trio to help him with the baby dragon, he also said nothing to defend them when they got in trouble or injured as a result. He also sent Ron and Harry straight to the monster spiders). 10. He has bad taste (remember the horrible hairy suit? Blech). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Many of these reasons are very petty. Many of these "faults" are found in many of the main characters. Robin _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From drmm at fuuko.com Mon Apr 28 23:57:56 2003 From: drmm at fuuko.com (drmm_fuuko) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 23:57:56 -0000 Subject: Snape is NOT Sexy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56382 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "weeoo0" wrote: > So why is it that Snape is sexy? Is it simply a case of movie > contamination, of Rickmania, whom I have heard women, and some men, > tote to be "the sexiest voice ever"? > > Is it fanfiction? has fanfic created a grey area between canon and > fanon, whereby Snape is now a character of sexual fantasy and > discourse. Is Fanfiction to blame? Or is it merely an outlet? Hum, good question. While I certainly don't think that Snape fits the traditional view of sexy, Snape has a certain aura that makes him oddly attractive. Why? Snape is a complex, mysterious character. I can't figure him out, so I find myself fascinated by him. As for the books description of Snape, remember that the books are told from Harry's POV. Harry doesn't like Snape so he'll exaggerate Snape's physical characteristics. Sure, Snape is definatly not the most physically attractive character in the book (greasy hair, big nose) but that doesn't mean he's totally, completely ugly. Nobody accuses Viktor Krum of being repellant and his physical description is reasonably similar to Snape's. And it wasn't Alan Rickman that made me find Snape attractive. I've felt that way since Snape shoved his Dark Mark under Fudge's nose in GoF. That took courage. Of course, it all comes down to how you view Snape. I see him as being extremely loyal to those he cares about; there's something attractive in the idea of being the one he's loyal to. And a dark past is always a help ... DrMM From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Mon Apr 28 23:32:57 2003 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (irene_mikhlin) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 23:32:57 -0000 Subject: Snape is NOT Sexy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56383 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "weeoo0" wrote: > SNAPE IS NOT SEXY > > That is correct, Severus Snape, Potions Master Extroardinaire, in all > his deep mysteriousness, in all his complexity, to the very depths of > his possibly tortured soul, vampire or not, good or bad, Severus > Snape, is not sexy. > > okay, okay, yes that is just his physical description, sallow greasy, > a hooked nose, but mum always said, it's what's inside that counts. Don't forget it's a description by Harry. If Harry found him attractive, that's where I'd start to worry. :-) And the sheer number of times he is desribed as greasy/oily/etc. reminded me of "The Godfather". Did italian characters actually have worse personal habits than anglo-saxon ones? I don't think so. > > Yet still i hav a hard time understanding the intimite attraction of > Snape who is, despite any possible need to present a certain persona > in front of certain company, a nonetheless, spiteful, bitter, > sarcastic, man. > > And is that what drives it, is it his bitter side that makes him > attractive? The ultimate veil of possible evil which hang over his > sallow thin hooknosed greasy head? > > Because if that is the case, I ask, why not Filch, is Filch sexy? He > is bitter, spiteful, and hell, he is even capable of love, look at how > well he cares for his Mrs. Norris. The man was absolutely gobsmacked > when his precious was heart in CoS, he was furious, I mean to say, who > can't love a man with such an affinity for an animal right?! > > And yet, Filch is not sexy, and in fandom far and wide, despite some > of the curious ships you might find in some fanfics, the sexyness of > Filch is one i rarely (never) have come accross! > > So why is it that Snape is sexy? Is it simply a case of movie > contamination, of Rickmania, whom I have heard women, and some men, > tote to be "the sexiest voice ever"? No, no, no. Some of us Snapefans date to before the movie was made, and even before Rickman was cast. It's hard to explain what exactly makes him tick, but it's easier to answer your question "Why not Filch?" Filch is not clever. This specific brand of unpleasant and mildly sadistic ;-) characters that Snape belongs to, requires intellect to be sexy. Irene From hmvick78 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 28 23:16:46 2003 From: hmvick78 at yahoo.com (h vick) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:16:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Against all odds, Harry isn't a mass murderer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030428231646.27297.qmail@web41509.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56384 fandulin wrote: The brilliance of J.K. Rowling IMO is that she makes people want to dig deeper and ponder the details because her world IS so real and human. Hallmark of an awesome writer. I agree however, that we wouldn't want Harry the Ritalin popping Columbine kid stalking the halls of Hogwarts. Fandulin Me: I completely agree with Fandulin ? her astute observation that the brilliance of JKR is the fact that we, even as adults, have been "magically" transported to a place so real, we?re discussing it with each other. But, I disagree with what the majority of what?s been said about the Dursleys. I do not believe that they are really abusive or truly evil. Rather, I think they?re just, well, dim when it comes to parenting or loving anyone ? as evidenced by their remarkable backward parenting of Dudley. I base this on a couple of things. First of all, we?re seeing the Dursleys from Harry?s point of view ? a view which I love very much ? but one of an adolescent child, nonetheless. He?s stuck in a situation that we?ve all found ourselves in at that age ? hating our guardians and desperately wanting someone to show up at our doorstep to tell us we?re not really who we were raised to think we are (again, the brilliance of JKR). I like to think that we?re seeing the Dursleys through Harry?s eyes, and the effect is caricature-like and comical, but perhaps not 100% accurate. I think the Dursleys are multi-dimensional, as we all are, but we?re viewing them through a delightful looking glass of Harry?s point of view. What we see, as readers, is a dysfunctional family who are sometimes mean to Harry, but, on the whole, just quite silly. Harry does have issues, but not unlike any other adolescent boy who finds out his parents were murdered and a snake-like crazed sorcerer is out to get him, and that has nothing to do with the Dursleys. (As far as we know right now) Also, Harry is a remarkable child, but he certainly doesn?t come across as abused or severely beaten. I was struck when reading SS/PS that Harry ventured to tell everyone in the car that he had a dream about a flying motorcycle. He knew what the response was going to be, and yet he said it anyway. This isn?t a story of true, deep, dark abuse ? as we find in other Oliver Twist type orphan-children books ? but of a household full of crazy contradictions and yelling. I don?t think Harry has ever felt really scared of the Dursleys, just wary and annoyed ? he does lots of things to show his independence, as already referenced in this thread. Finally, I guess I kind of buy the notion that perhaps the Dursleys were paid or threatened, but even if they were, it does not necessarily point to their abusive evil-ness. They ARE muggles, after all, and don?t understand the world Harry lives in 9 months out of the year. It?s a form of xenophobia, isn?t it? They?re just afraid of the ?other? and, while that would categorize them as evil in some people?s minds, I?ve always thought of them as a pathetic lot who deserves more pity than hatred. They?re mean spirited because they?re in an uncomfortable situation of an adolescent boy, who?s not like anything they know, is coming of age under their roof, not because of a sick psychotic need to emotionally traumatize a kid. All in my humble opinion, of course. hmvick From weeoo0 at yahoo.ca Tue Apr 29 00:34:05 2003 From: weeoo0 at yahoo.ca (weeoo0) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 00:34:05 -0000 Subject: Death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56385 fandulin wrote: > I've got to agree, as sad as that is. Voldemort has been humiliated > by Harry, on the first day he returns. He has to regain credibility, > and a perfect way to do that is to kill off Dumbledore. That leaves > him in full, unquestioned command of the Death Eaters for the > remaining books. I believe that DD's days are numbered, but yet, I also agree with bboy_mn that such will not happen until the 6th at the earliest. Dumbledore is the only wizard which Voldemort ever feared, or so the story goes if IIRC, which isn't a given, as my memory can be spotty at times. If killing DD was that simple, then I imagine Voldy might have had a successful go at it during round one (ie: before the Potter debacle which cost him his body). But DD is getting older, and I believe his time will come, but not yet. As to who the promised death in book 5, well, i have my suspisions, it could be Hagrid, that definately seems to be the most widely held belief I have come across. I for one could see it being Hagrid for one simple reason, Hagrid rescued Harry from the aftermath of the attack when he was a baby, he rescued Harry from the Dursley, and thus i can see a certain symetry, if Hagrid were to die as some sort of rescuer, protector, or other. ( I am searching my mental lexicon for a word which i can't seem to find at the moment, but i think you might be ale to decipher what i am getting at!) But then, I think Hagrid would be more than happy to die if it were in some way defending Dumbledore or Harry, but that's just me. (not of course, that i think Hagrid want's to die) that's just my mind Sarah Weeoo0 From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Tue Apr 29 00:40:45 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 20:40:45 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] I Hate Snape... Message-ID: <183.1a2e5ba2.2bdf240d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56386 In a message dated 4/27/03 6:15:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu writes: > Not me. I think he's a heartless jerk who takes entirely too much > pleasure in the pain he gives his students. Why, you may ask, do I show > such bile against a fictional character? The intensity of this attitude > of mine can be traced to a single comment made by Snape. From GoF, US > Paperback edition, pp. 299-300: I hate to say this, but that's why I love Snape. He *is* a heartless jerk. If everyone in the series were a nice, good, wholesome guy, I would've thrown up on my book during the first chapter. Not everyone in life is nice. It's a hard lesson to learn. Everyone can be free to hate Snape - in fact, most people *should* hate Snape because that's the way their personalities are. Most of my friends Hate Snape because of all the horrible things he's done. That's just who he is. One of my good friends gets like that - he may not be a teacher, but he can throw out lines that are Snape like. Snape is still a good guy (as far as we know). Not every good guy is *good* all the way through. Not everyone can be. I'm reminded of Buffy the Vampire Slayer (this is not an exact quote): Buffy: Does it ever get easy? Giles: What? Buffy: Life. Giles: What do you want me to say? Buffy: Lie to me. Giles: The good guys are always stalwart and true. The bad guys are easily distinguished by their pointy black hats. We always win. No one ever dies. And we all live happily ever after. Buffy: Liar. Snape could be keeping up a persona. We don't know for sure until Book Five (...or Six....or Seven). Snape's a damn good Potions Teacher (one who doesn't want the DADA job IMHO) and I have had teachers like him. All I can think of in their class is showing them up by getting good grades. It's like that in high school (I should know...I'm there now!) I sincerely hope that Snape is never fully redeemed. He is a sadistic slimy git - but I worship him. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion - I personally do not like Sirius Black or Hagrid or McGonagall or Dumbledore all that much, but they're needed in the series. As is Snape. ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ --Who wonder why everyone thinks the Snape-lovers will flame them for expressing their opinions....... "Let's build a shrine to the iron!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sugarkadi at aol.com Tue Apr 29 00:42:38 2003 From: sugarkadi at aol.com (sugarkadi at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 20:42:38 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape is NOT Sexy Message-ID: <77E7E741.63354697.0290C41F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56387 Hello! Okay, enough introduction... Sarah said: > thought I would give it a go. > > SNAPE IS NOT SEXY Thank you for so clearly writing what's been in my mind since around September, when I joined this group and discovered there are people who don't think of Snape as disgusting (and was completely astounded at the revelation) However, there are "sexy" words used to describe him: he glides, swoops, has a silky voice,(these are used many times throughout the books and in my mind don't need to be referenced, the way if you say "there are 9 planets in the solar system", you don't need a footnote; however, if you want references, I'll gladly look them up) and probably does other things of the sort I can't think of right now(I don't have my books on hand). > Now, I simply am unable to see how such a person is considered so > ...sexy ..... Ditto that, except for the verbs I gave. Still, that doesn't do it for me. > And is that what drives it, is it his bitter side that makes him > attractive? The ultimate veil of possible evil which hang over his > sallow thin hooknosed greasy head? I suspect so. He's mysterious. A lot of people also think he's a vampire, and they (vampires) have been hoisted up to levels of sexiness that outstrip Snape. As for Filch (not) being sexy, perhaps the verbs used to describe him aren't so...attractive? (There's got to be a better word for that.) Again, I don't have the books; does he lumber, clank, etc.? > So why is it that Snape is sexy? Is it simply a case of movie > contamination, of Rickmania, whom I have heard women, and some men, > tote to be "the sexiest voice ever"? Have Snapefans liked him since before Alan Rickman was announced as playing him? I know that Rickman made me despise Snape less, if only because he's so much more attractive than I ever pictured Snape. Now I just Rickman in my mind when I read the books and it's much more pleasant; before I was tortured nearly as badly as the trio in Potions whenever Snape had page time. And yes, his voice *is* amazing. =) > Is it fanfiction? has fanfic created a grey area between canon and > fanon, whereby Snape is now a character of sexual fantasy and > discourse. Is Fanfiction to blame? Or is it merely an outlet? I've never read and refuse to read fanfiction (only so I won't mix up what really happened and what happened (happens) in fanon. > I personally feel that Snape is one of my favorite characters. I love > that he is mean, that he is sarcastic, and bitter, and spiteful, and > humourless, and dark, and sallow skinned and hooknosed and greasy. I > like that he is horrible to the kids, shows blatant > favortism, was a > DE, but fights for the good. I Like Snape, he's great! I agree. > But Sexy? Certainly NOT! I agree with *that* too! ~Katey, still not seeing what others do From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 00:43:05 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 17:43:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape is NOT Sexy In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030428182308.03546ca0@mail.societyhappens.com> Message-ID: <20030429004305.21411.qmail@web21201.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56388 > Sushi, who will refrain from writing the essay, > "Why Power Hasn't Made > Dumbledore Into A Sex Symbol", because, well, > the man's 150 years old and > doesn't flaunt the power he's got (bad Albus!) > Me: Now, see, I think Albus Dumbledore is totally sexy, even for an old guy. I find his sense of humor very sexy as well as his honor. His intelligence and his subtle use of power are attractive as well. Different strokes I guess. LOL Lynn (who also think Sean Connery has gotten sexier with age too) ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From siriuskase at earthlink.net Tue Apr 29 00:54:11 2003 From: siriuskase at earthlink.net (siriuskase) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 00:54:11 -0000 Subject: Against all odds, Harry isn't a mass murderer In-Reply-To: <20030428231646.27297.qmail@web41509.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56389 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, h vick wrote: > I completely agree with Fandulin ? her astute observation that the brilliance of JKR is the fact that we, even as adults, have been "magically" transported to a place so real, we're discussing it with each other. But, I disagree with what the majority of what's been said about the Dursleys. I do not believe that they are really abusive or truly evil. Rather, I think they're just, well, dim when it comes to parenting or loving anyone ? as evidenced by their remarkable backward parenting of Dudley. > Great Analysis here of Harry's situation with the Dursleys > Finally, I guess I kind of buy the notion that perhaps the Dursleys were paid or threatened, but even if they were, it does not necessarily point to their abusive evil-ness. They ARE muggles, after all, and don't understand the world Harry lives in 9 months out of the year. It's a form of xenophobia, isn't it? They're just afraid of the "other" and, while that would categorize them as evil in some people's minds, I've always thought of them as a pathetic lot who deserves more pity than hatred. They're mean spirited because they're in an uncomfortable situation of an adolescent boy, who's not like anything they know, is coming of age under their roof, not because of a sick psychotic need to emotionally traumatize a kid. > > All in my humble opinion, of course. > > hmvick It is nice to see an opinion that ocmes so close to mine. I'll try not to repeat what you wrote, but I'll try to add a few knuts of my own. IMO, the Dursleys are trying very much to protect Harry from the force that killed his parents and probably Petunia's parents. They don't distinguish between good magic and bad magic. To them, Harry is mixed up with magic and that is bad. They don't try to get rid of Harry, they don't physically hurt him, but they cause much psychologyical harm by denying such a fundamental part of his personality. And since they don't know anything about either magic or child rearing, they are doing a terrible job of bringing up boys. sirius kase From meboriqua at aol.com Tue Apr 29 01:10:00 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 01:10:00 -0000 Subject: Why I hate Hagrid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56390 Robin said, of my most excellent list of reasons to dislike Hagrid: > Many of these reasons are very petty. Many of these "faults" are found in many of the main characters.> So what? That's what we do around here: come up with trivial, often petty things and analyze them until we're all blue in the face. That's why I love this list and have stuck around for more than two years. I never said other characters don't have faults as well, because some of them have staggeringly glaring faults. Really, it's not that I think Hagrid is evil or a jerk or anything. I know he has a good heart - I really do! I just find his characterization irritating. I feel like JKR wants us to find Hagrid endearing and to smile indulgently and say "Oh, that Hagrid!" when he whips out another snarling beast as a pet. I just can't do that. It's also hard for me to *not* think as the teacher I am when reading the scenes where Hagrid is attempting to educate the Hogwarts students. It irks me to no end that I *know* Hagrid knows his stuff but his own bias toward "interestin' creatures" gets in the way of him being an excellent COMC professor. Darrin is onto something, though, because Trelawney sucks, too, but boy, is that another thread! --jenny from ravenclaw ***************************** From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 00:17:11 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 17:17:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why I hate Hagrid (was: I Hate Snape...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030429001711.69414.qmail@web21207.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56391 Jenny said: > Knock it off, you two! Bonding over your > support of Hagrid - feh! > Pushing me to start slammin' Hagrid again, just > so you can say how > great he is - bah! I'll just tell you why I > dislike Hagrid so much, > and I'll stand by my dislike even if I am the > only one of all the > 6800+ members of HPFGU to do so. Here goes: > > Jenny's Top 10 Reasons to Dislike Hagrid: > 1. He has a big mouth (leaks information to the > Trio that he shouldn't > have in SS and says way too much to Rita > Skeeter in the interview he > knew he shouldn't have done). > 2. Clearly breaks wizarding laws (uses magic > when with Harry and > harbors a baby dragon in SS). > 3. Encourages children to be dishonest (asks > Harry not to mention his > use of magic illegally in SS). > 4. Allows his temper to get the best of him, > causing damage to others > (granted, it is only in relation to Dumbledore, > but really, did he > have to give Dudley a pig's tail?). > 5. He's a terrible, horrible, awful, inept > teacher - he'd even be > fired from the NYC public school system (where > I work), and that's > quite a feat! > 6. He cries too much (people are going to hate > me for that one, but a > teacher who openly cries in front of the > students - that's baaaaad). > 7. He drinks when his job seems to keep him on > call all the time. > 8. He leans too much on the Trio. > 9. Puts others in danger (remember Norbert? He > not only allowed the > Trio to help him with the baby dragon, he also > said nothing to defend > them when they got in trouble or injured as a > result. He also sent > Ron and Harry straight to the monster spiders). > 10. He has bad taste (remember the horrible > hairy suit? Blech). > > So go ahead - let me have it! Let's get the > Great Hagrid Debate up > and running again. Darrin, I'm sure you'll > tear me to bits. > > --jenny from ravenclaw, who, unlike Hagrid, is > not afraid of who she > is and she is someone who does not like Hagrid! Me: Gee, can anyone join this debate? I'm surprised to see ravenclaw though when it seems like such a Slytherin answer to me. ;) Just kidding. To take your arguments point by point: 1. I agree Hagrid has a big mouth. Of course, it's his big mouth that gives HRH the clues they need to figure things out is PS. So, shouldn't we feel sorry for Hagrid for being used so horribly by the author to do this? 2. Agreed, he clearly does break wizarding laws. Then again, when he didn't break the law he was still accused and convicted of it and later sent to prison for it. Seems to me he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't here. 3. I don't agree here. Hagrid never asks Harry to lie, just not tell. It's like saying that when I tell my daughter not to tell Daddy what she got him as a present, I'm teaching her to be dishonest. I have no problem with keeping secrets as long as no one is getting hurt by them and personally, I think the magic might have done Dudley some good. ;) 4. Totally agree with this point except he was trying to turn Dudley into a pig and not just give him a tail. At least he was trying to be thorough. ;) 5. I agree he's a bad teacher but I see that as the fault of Dumbledore. Dumbledore knows Hagrid knows nothing about teaching but is apparently not giving Hagrid any guidelines or help. I would have assumed that there is a regular lesson plan for this class as there are for the others and there should be more supervision for a new teacher, especially one who never finished school. I would assume that even in NYC teachers are supposed to have some kind of training before they are allowed to teach. 6. I agree with this as well. As a teacher, Hagrid needs to show more restraint. That being said, I think it's normal for a person to cry when a beloved pet is about to die and don't see a problem with letting kids see that it's okay to feel grief. It's the other times I remember Hagrid crying where I think he needed to show more restraint after becoming a teacher. This though, is something that may come the longer he is a teacher. He hadn't needed to show that type of restraint before then. He would also have to pick the right role model. Snape certainly wouldn't be a good one since he doesn't show restraint in how he deals with some students or how he feels about them. 7. I don't agree with this. Now if you said he drinks too much and is constantly drunk, that would be different. While we know Hagrid drinks, I don't remember one instance when he's been drunk during classes or when he was needed for serious work. For example, in GoF, he's not drunk when Dumbledore calls for him when Krum is discovered stunned. If Hagrid was constantly drinking, Hagrid should have been drunk by then. To say someone can't drink at all because they are on call 24/7 is a bit unrealistic, not to mention picky, picky, picky. 8. This one I don't understand at all. How is he leaning on the Trio? Could you explain this further? Seems to me he's really trying to be an adult friend to them, in the best way he knows how. 9. I agree he definitely used bad judgment when it came to Norbert. He should have dealt with that himself rather than let the kids bring the egg up to the tower. However, we don't know that he didn't try to make things right after he heard they were caught. Hagrid was certainly quick to come to Harry's defense in CoS even when he had to know he would again be under suspicion for the Chamber opening. As for the spider, I agree with Harry that Hagrid thought Aragog would never allow a friend of his to be harmed, particularly when that friend was trying to help Hagrid. In this instance, I don't believe Hagrid thought he was putting anyone in danger. But couldn't we also say the same of Dumbledore for allowing students to have detention in the Forbidden Forest in PS? 10. Bad taste? Well, gee, I wonder how many clothing stores there are around for half-giants? It could be either bad taste or that's all that was available when he needed a suit. It may also be that he had to make the suit himself and that material was all he could find or get. When I read the description, I wonder if it's a suit made of animal skins. It doesn't appear anyone ever taught Hagrid much about keeping up his appearance, but that's such a mother thing to do and his mother wasn't around. Now, I'm not a Hagrid fan, to me he's just a character and I won't weep if he dies like I know I will for Lupin. However, I do feel for Hagrid. Here's a kid who has grown up knowing that he'll be hated by people for something he had no control over, his mother being a giant. He grows up without a mother and so loses that type of nurturing. He loses the one grounding influence in his life at the age of 12 when his father dies. At 13 he's accused and convicted of a crime he didn't commit on the say so of someone else because he wasn't believed when he said he hadn't done it and neither did his spider. We don't know how he lived or what kind of adult influences he had in his life after that but I've always gotten the impression from Hagrid that he's emotionally immature in many ways and didn't have an adult hand in a very tough time in a young man's life. Hagrid craves acceptance, something he doesn't appear to have gotten for much of his life. Hagrid is insecure and also doesn't have a lot of confidence in himself when it comes to his knowledge of certain things, such as being able to put together his own defense of Buckbeak. Yet, in other ways, Hagrid is very perceptive and really does care for HRH and at times has tried to be the adult friend, such as in PoA when he talks to Harry and Ron about how they are treating Hermione. He is also the one who thinks about rounding up pictures for Harry. For all his interest in monsterous things, Hagrid is a very sensitive soul and it's not surprising given his early life. To me, these aren't reasons to hate Hagrid but to feel sympathy for him. Lynn (who really can't blame Hagrid for being afraid of what people will think of who he is when people tell him to go drown himself just because his mother is a giant and blame him for what his mother may or may not have done) ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com Tue Apr 29 00:22:48 2003 From: mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com (mlle_bienvenu) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 00:22:48 -0000 Subject: If Snape is a vampire, he isn't bothered by sunlight... In-Reply-To: <002c01c30db8$751bb700$ca48243e@takun> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56392 > > Rubeus Hagrid: > HEHEHE, You got me there!!! But listen, if his eyes are green, he's really related to Lilly and not James, and listen here, take Snape's name, SEVERUS SNAPE is an anagram for Perseus Evans, coincidence???? Lilly's maiden name was Evans, we know that for sure, so.... Maybe you're right, who knows. > > "Rubeus Hagrid" Me: Ah, yes, you're absolutely right. If anyone, Snape should be related to Lily, which works just as well for me :D... I'd forgotten about the Perseus Evans thing... I don't think that's a coincidence, it's much too coincidental. JK has already used an anagram for one of her characters, I've no doubt she'd use another one. Mlle Bienvenu From laikokae at hotmail.com Tue Apr 29 01:04:14 2003 From: laikokae at hotmail.com (Kae *) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 11:04:14 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape is NOT Sexy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56393 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "weeoo0" wrote: > So why is it that Snape is sexy? Is it simply a case of movie > contamination, of Rickmania, whom I have heard women, and some men, > tote to be "the sexiest voice ever"? I think that quite a lot of people DID get the idea of Snape being sexy from Alan Rickman playing him in the films, but I think there is canon to support it. Like Sushi said, the man oozes power and dominance. And the way he is described as moving...swooping around like a bat and appearing out of nowhere. And his voice *is* mentioned in canon as being silky, I believe. And he has the prescence to capture a roomful of students' attention effortlessly. That *is* sexy. Laik, who is ridiculously biased and has an asshole complex. _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail now available on Australian mobile phones. Go to http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilecentral/hotmail_mobile.asp From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 00:33:28 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 17:33:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030429003328.40976.qmail@web21205.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56394 --- Steve wrote: > I think there is also a concensus for Hagrid > dying soon. I hate that > because Hargrid is the only adult that Harry > really feels comfortable > turning to. For every conversation he has with > Dumblefore, Harry has > 10 (or more) with Hagrid. There would be a HUGE > hole in Harry's adult > support network if Hagrid was gone; very huge, > not to mention the hole > in Harry's heart. But, as much as I hate it, I > guess I could live with > Hagrid dying. The only aspect of Hagrid dying I > couldn't live with is > Hagrid being kill by the giants, or worst yet, > by his own mother. I > mean, DAMN (pardon the French) there is only so > much tragedy that a > person can stand (both me and Harry). That > would be too much; that > would be too tragic for me to handle. Me: I've thought it might be Hagrid for the following reason. Unless Voldemort is still going strong at the end of the 7th book, something will have to have changed since the last time he had power since he won't get those 13 years he's demanded from the Death Eaters. I've wondered if it is the giants. As a theory, the giants come to like and respect Hagrid if that is indeed his mission or at least like and respect his mother who's maternal feelings are reawakened with Hagrid's visit. Hagrid gets killed by Voldemort. In response, the giants turn against Voldemort and help to bring about his destruction. Just a little theory of mine. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com Tue Apr 29 00:23:42 2003 From: mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com (mlle_bienvenu) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 00:23:42 -0000 Subject: If Snape is a vampire, he isn't bothered by sunlight... In-Reply-To: <002c01c30db8$751bb700$ca48243e@takun> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56395 > > Rubeus Hagrid: > HEHEHE, You got me there!!! But listen, if his eyes are green, he's really related to Lilly and not James, and listen here, take Snape's name, SEVERUS SNAPE is an anagram for Perseus Evans, coincidence???? Lilly's maiden name was Evans, we know that for sure, so.... Maybe you're right, who knows. > > "Rubeus Hagrid" Me: Ah, yes, you're absolutely right. If anyone, Snape should be related to Lily, which works just as well for me :D... I'd forgotten about the Perseus Evans thing... I don't think that's a coincidence, it's much too coincidental. JK has already used an anagram for one of her characters, I've no doubt she'd use another one. Mlle Bienvenu From suzchiles at pobox.com Tue Apr 29 01:39:37 2003 From: suzchiles at pobox.com (Suzanne Chiles) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 18:39:37 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why I hate Hagrid (was: I Hate Snape...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56396 Let me guess ... you're a schoolteacher, right? I love Hagrid, myself, but I will say that if it weren't for his stumbles, I think the books would be pretty boring. I'm no psychologist, but I think the combination of his father's death and being (falsely) expelled from school caused him to stop growing emotionally. He no longer had anyone really looking out for his psychological well-being, and it makes perfect sense that he would be 65 going on 14. And I won't fault him for that, ever. It's clear to me that JKR wants us to love Hagrid, despite all of his shortcomings, and recognize him for the pure gentle person he is. Suzanne > Jenny's Top 10 Reasons to Dislike Hagrid: > 1. He has a big mouth (leaks information to the Trio that he shouldn't > have in SS and says way too much to Rita Skeeter in the interview he > knew he shouldn't have done). > 2. Clearly breaks wizarding laws (uses magic when with Harry and > harbors a baby dragon in SS). > 3. Encourages children to be dishonest (asks Harry not to mention his > use of magic illegally in SS). > 4. Allows his temper to get the best of him, causing damage to others > (granted, it is only in relation to Dumbledore, but really, did he > have to give Dudley a pig's tail?). > 5. He's a terrible, horrible, awful, inept teacher - he'd even be > fired from the NYC public school system (where I work), and that's > quite a feat! > 6. He cries too much (people are going to hate me for that one, but a > teacher who openly cries in front of the students - that's baaaaad). > 7. He drinks when his job seems to keep him on call all the time. > 8. He leans too much on the Trio. > 9. Puts others in danger (remember Norbert? He not only allowed the > Trio to help him with the baby dragon, he also said nothing to defend > them when they got in trouble or injured as a result. He also sent > Ron and Harry straight to the monster spiders). > 10. He has bad taste (remember the horrible hairy suit? Blech). From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 01:53:04 2003 From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 01:53:04 -0000 Subject: Old member returning in anticipation of OotP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56397 Greetings! Work and life took me away from this group, but now that we are slowly inching toward the due date for OotP, I am eager and itching for those HP discussions I remember so well. Just wanted to say hello! Yours, Rainy P.S. A friend of mine dropped an interesting though inconclusive theory about Mrs. Figg. Ever notice how Rowling makes a point of saying how her house smelled of cooked cabbage? What else have we come across in the canon that has such a smell? Hmmmmm.... Polyjuice potion. I wonder if there is a connection here? Perhaps she is not an old woman at all but something else entirely..... From kellybroughton at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 01:59:29 2003 From: kellybroughton at yahoo.com (kelly broughton) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 18:59:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily NOT related to the Weasleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030429015929.83682.qmail@web21102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56398 --- Linda wrote: > OK. Maybe I'm a little crazy here but hear me out and let me > know what you think. > > Color seems to be a major componant of the books in several > different ways (ie Harry's bright green eyes etc.). Is it just > coincidence that Lily, like the entire Weasley family, has red hair? > Ron states that he thinks his mother has "a second cousin that's an > accountant or something" on the Hogwarts express in SS. Could it be > that there were more squibs in her family, maybe one of Lily and > Petunia's grandparents perhaps? A magical family history would also > explain why Petunia said that her parents were "so proud to have a > witch in the family". Maybe, to them it was not an unexpected > occurance but something that they had hoped for. > > Linda > If that were the case, wouldn't Arthur have acted somewhat more familiar with Petunia, at least, if she and her sister (and her parents) were related to him? I say Arthur, bc I am assuming it is from him all the kids have the red hair. But I suppose the cousin could be Molly's.... Ron might not know too much about this "distant cousin", but I'd be a bit suprised if Arthur knew nothing about him/her. -kel __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From melclaros at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 02:01:42 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 02:01:42 -0000 Subject: Snape is NOT Sexy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56399 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "weeoo0" wrote: > > SNAPE IS NOT SEXY > > That is correct, Severus Snape, Potions Master Extroardinaire, in all > his deep mysteriousness, in all his complexity, to the very depths of > his possibly tortured soul, vampire or not, good or bad, Severus > Snape, is not sexy. > this was in response to a teeny comment by me: > melclaros wrote: > > sexy as all get out> that was really a throwaway, but yes, I supposed I'd better admit now to those of you who don't know it, I'm one of the "some" So Sarah continues: > Sexy as all get out? How, Why? And Sarah got LOTS of answers, so many I wasn't going to answer myself, just sit back and enjoy the fireworks until I got to THIS: > > Is it fanfiction? has fanfic created a grey area between canon and > fanon, For me, No, absolutely not. I can count on one hand the number of fics I've read, including one I wrote myself specifically for a small group of friends and even THAT Snape isn't "my" true Snape. It's not Rickantamination for me either, because as much as I like Alan and enjoy "his" Snape, I started falling for the Potions Master at his very first appearance at chapter 8 in SS/PS. In fact I've *re- read* it so many times our book opens right to this page-US version pg 136 I'll skip the beginnig of "the potions speech" because we all know it by heart, or should!--and because what *really* caught my attention was this: He spoke in barely more than a whisper, but they caught every word--" Well that, my friend, was all she wrote as far as I was concerened. The poetry of the introductory speech and the manner in which it was delivered whet an appetite for Severus Snape which has yet to be sated. I stand by a second line in that earlier posted quote, the one in which I claim to believe JKR has a "crush" on Snape herself. The way she describes his voice and movements do not, to me describe a hated character. The huge amount of TIME she's devoted to him belies an affection she herself may not even be aware of. She's endowed him with a sense of incredible power being held at bay JUST under a very, very thin surface. I know I'm also not alone in thinking that so far, the all-time sexiest, snapiest line in the series is in PoA in the Shrieking Shack..."Give me one reason," he whispered. "Give me a reason to do it and I swear I will." The sense of restrained power there is incredible--and if we STILL don't get the picture, JK allows us a few tempting sparks out of the end of his wand. And there I'll stop...not because I've run out of reasons, but because I fear I won't! Mel whereby Snape is now a character of sexual fantasy and > discourse. Is Fanfiction to blame? Or is it merely an outlet? > > I personally feel that Snape is one of my favorite characters. I love > that he is mean, that he is sarcastic, and bitter, and spiteful, and > humourless, and dark, and sallow skinned and hooknosed and greasy. I > like that he is horrible to the kids, shows blatant favortism, was a > DE, but fights for the good. I Like Snape, he's great! > > But Sexy? Certainly NOT! > > Sarah ! > Weeoo0 From samwise_the_grey at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 01:28:37 2003 From: samwise_the_grey at yahoo.com (samwise_the_grey) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 01:28:37 -0000 Subject: Dudley *spoilers* Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56400 After all of JKR's little tidbits I've decided that Dudley is the late blooming wizard that she told us about. I had thought of Filch (the embittered squib) and Aunt Petunia (the embittered and at the same time repulsed muggle) first, but then why not Dudley? He has blood relations to the Evans too and he's only a few years off. But now I'm convinced. This article in BOOK has me counting on it. http://www.bookmagazine.com/issue28/unfogging.shtml ~Samwise From susannahlm at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 02:08:26 2003 From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (derannimer) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 02:08:26 -0000 Subject: Snape. Woo-HOO! With All Due Apologies to Captain Cindy. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56401 Just an attempt to explain why I, personally, like Snape. First, though. Darrin observed that Snape's comment to Hermione about her teeth was really inexcusable, and the main reason he hates Snape. To which I can only say. . . well, yeah. However. Look, as I read Snape, the man is a sadist. I think he probably *enjoyed* being a DE--I think he'd probably enjoy, say, the odd Unforgivable Curse *now* if he let himself do such a thing. I think he certainly enjoyed the odd Unforgivable Curse back in the day. I doubt he considers the occassional hideous appearance-related comment as anything to even *notice.* After what he's done, do you honestly think he would consider that cruelty? Real cruelty--I mean, I doubt it even registers on his Cruelty-o-Meter. The other thing to consider is that the WW is a considerably more brutal world than our own--no doubt, Snape would be sacked if he acted like that in an American Muggle high school, but Hogwarts isn't an American Muggle high school. I don't doubt that Dumbledore knows *exactly* how Snape treats his students--and he not only keeps the man on as a teacher, and trusts him with some pretty important fighting Evil jobs, but seems to have a great deal of personal sympathy, or affection, for him as well. All of which is to say that the comment may well be inexcusable to us- -but I'm almost sure Snape wouldn't see it that way, and I bet most of the WW wouldn't either. Now, on to reasons to like Snape! -------------- WARNING: THEORIES BELOW -------------- 1. He switched sides. Somebody said that he may have done that simply because he "wanted to be on the winning side" but at the time of Voldemort's disappearance, the Good Guys *weren't* the winning side. Voldemort was in the ascendent, and to argue otherwise would seem to negate the whole point of The Boy Who Lived. The reason Harry is a hero is that he stopped Voldemort when *nothing* else could. I've always assumed that Voldemort was gaining power until the minute he tried to AK Harry. So Snape *left* the side that was apparently winning, turned himself in to the Good Guys' side when he can't possibly have known what they were going to do to him, turned spy for Dumbledore "at great personal risk"--and did all this probably against his own instincts. So Snape *is* brave. (Another interesting thing to note: it seems likely that JKR likes redemption stories, if for no other reason than that her favorite books when she was a child were the Chronicles of Narnia, and her favorite character within those books was *Eustace.* Anyone who can love Eustace shouldn't have any problem with Snape.) 2. He is talented. This one has been argued before: for examples, feel free to ask me or one of my Snape-loving colleagues. 3. He is intelligent enough to not get caught either by Voldemort-- who didn't know he was a spy--or by Crouch's boys--it seems that Crouch didn't know Snape's identity as a spy until after the end of the war. 4. Related to 1 & 3: Come off it. He's a *spy.* 5. He is more morally complex than just about any other character in the books that I can think of. And mysterious. And, to this point, continually fooling us all. On a purely literary level, he's a tremendous character. 6. He's got guilt and angst and inner conflict. Plus, as I said before, he's a sadist. So you get Hurt-Comfort and Comfort-Hurt all in one! Woo-Hoo! Ahem. Yes. Well. This would be the DeadSexy part of the argument, I suppose. 7. He's got an excellent reason for hating James and Harry Potter; he was in love with Lily and she most likely would not have died had she not married said James. She more especially would not have died had she not had said Harry. (SEE: Lollipops AND Harry as the Heir of Gryffindor.) And he's got an excellent reason to hate Sirius in POA, given that he's spent the past twelve years believing him to have betrayed said Lily. And wondering why he himself hadn't twigged to that one earlier, being a spy and all. (And there was that whole Werewolf Incident, you know.) -------------- Bent Snapefans: Any additions? ; ) Derannimer, who doesn't think that Alan Rickman is all that sexy, but who must agree that he's got a great voice. From rona_patterson2 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 02:22:25 2003 From: rona_patterson2 at yahoo.com (Rona Patterson) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19:22:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dudley *spoilers* In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030429022225.28024.qmail@web41704.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56402 samwise_the_grey wrote: After all of JKR's little tidbits I've decided that Dudley is the late blooming wizard that she told us about. Rona Replies : Finally someone is thinking what I?m thinking. In chapter one of PS/SS it is said that the Dursleys treated Harry like a bomb that was about to go off. Does anyone find it odd that Petunia and Vernon treat Dudley like a bomb about to go off? I think that when Dudley was young (under 1) he threw a tantrum and did some unfocused magic and Petunia recognized the signs of magic, and in order to stop the magic she needed to give into every sob/scream that Dudley produced. Rona Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lady.farro at comcast.net Tue Apr 29 02:38:49 2003 From: lady.farro at comcast.net (lady.farro) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19:38:49 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why I hate Hagrid (was: I Hate Snape...) References: Message-ID: <016001c30df9$c26dcf20$6401a8c0@attbi.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56403 Oh Oh, my dear, dear Jenny! Why I *love Hagrid. 1. He is kind. demonstrated to Harry, Neville, Hermione. 2. He is human. His mistakes show Harry that adults are human, and that tears are not necessarily a sign of weakness. 3. He is Loyal. Hagrid is loyal to Dumbledore, Hogwarts, and in his loyalty defends Hogwarts teachers, including Professor Snape. 4. diversity. In this age of difference, Hagrid demonstrates his diversity, by being a giant, and his belief in others who are different. 5. A hero Hagrid is a hero figure, not merely because he rescued Harry from the Dursleys, but because he tried to teach Harry the difference between true friendship and just going along with the crowd. Hagrid made mistakes, just like all humans do, but Harry knew that he could count on him in hard times. And, I identify with Hagrid, because many times I'm not understood either, but I was reminded that all of us have something unique, as does Hagrid. LadyFarro From bard7696 at aol.com Tue Apr 29 02:33:06 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 02:33:06 -0000 Subject: Old member returning in anticipation of OotP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56404 > Rainy > > P.S. A friend of mine dropped an interesting though inconclusive > theory about Mrs. Figg. Ever notice how Rowling makes a point of > saying how her house smelled of cooked cabbage? What else have we > come across in the canon that has such a smell? > > Hmmmmm.... > > Polyjuice potion. > > I wonder if there is a connection here? Perhaps she is not an old > woman at all but something else entirely..... Now THIS is kinda neat... We do have a reference to Arabella Figg in GoF, but it is possible she is a younger woman, perhaps the same age as the Mauraders and she's just Polyjuicing to look like someone else. Remember, PS UK page 29, Mrs. Figg gave Harry a bit of chocolate cake. Perhaps a bit of precautionary anti-Dementor medicine??? Darrin -- Worried though that the Polyjuice will get to be like the masks in Mission: Impossible -- OVERDONE! From metslvr19 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 03:04:09 2003 From: metslvr19 at yahoo.com (Laura) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 03:04:09 -0000 Subject: Lily NOT related to the Weasleys In-Reply-To: <20030429015929.83682.qmail@web21102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56405 kelly wrote: > > > If that were the case, wouldn't Arthur have acted somewhat more familiar with Petunia, at least, if she and her sister (and her parents) were related to him? I say Arthur, bc I am assuming it is from him all the kids have the red hair. But I suppose the cousin could be Molly's.... > > > Actually, I'm pretty sure *all* the Weasleys have red hair. Is there any reference to Molly being something *other* than a red-head? I know in PoA when Harry reads the article about them winning the Daily Prophet contest, it says something along the lines of "and there stood [all the Weasleys] all, although the black-and-white picture didn't show it, with flaming red hair." I remember reading this while another related topic was being discussed, so I paid specific attention to it. Although I don't remember the exact quote, it definitely implied that *all* the Weasleys are red-headed. Unless there is some other reference to Molly not having red hair? -Laura From metslvr19 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 02:49:19 2003 From: metslvr19 at yahoo.com (Laura) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 02:49:19 -0000 Subject: Why I hate Hagrid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56406 Robin said (of Jenny's list of reasons to hate Hagrid) > > > Many of these reasons are very petty. Many of these "faults" are found in many of the main characters. > > > jenny from ravenclaw wrote: > > > So what? That's what we do around here: come up with trivial, often petty things and analyze them until we're all blue in the face. That's why I love this list and have stuck around for more than two years. I never said other characters don't have faults as well, because some of them have staggeringly glaring faults. Really, it's not that I think Hagrid is evil or a jerk or anything. I know he has a good heart - I really do! I just find his characterization irritating. I feel like JKR wants us to find Hagrid endearing and to smile indulgently and say "Oh, that Hagrid!" when he whips out another snarling beast as a pet. I just can't do that. It's also hard for me to *not* think as the teacher I am when reading the scenes where Hagrid is attempting to educate the Hogwarts students. It irks me to no end that I *know* Hagrid knows his stuff but his own bias toward "interestin' creatures" gets in the way of him being an excellent COMC professor. > > > Those are some of the same problems I've had. I've never really *liked* Hagrid, but I've never really *disliked* him. Dumbledore obviously trusts him, so I do too; I think a lot of the clues that he's a bumbling fool are way off- I've just never been given much of a reason to *like* him. I understand perfectly why Harry does, he's rescued Harry from the scene of his parents' death and from the Dursley's, but as a reader, I haven't really cared for him too much. I'm open-minded and willing to change, but I have yet to see anything in the books that makes me see Hagrid as a very lovable, heroic character. But that's just me. > > > Darrin is onto something, though, because Trelawney sucks, too, but boy, is that another thread! > > > Excellent point. *ducks missiles before she even makes the next comment* I'd even say that, despite the fact that she overdoes things, she's almost as bad as Snape. Luckily for all of us, no one takes her seriously. But if they did (and *she* thinks they *should*)- I mean, come on. Constantly predicting the sudden and horribly violent death of one of her students? We know she's a huge fraud, but does she honestly and seriously think all the stuff she says about Harry is true? (serious question, I often wonder this.) Because if she doesn't and is just saying all this stuff to be dramatic (as McGonagall implies by saying she does that every year), well, that's about as sadistic as anything Snape does, IMHO. *still ducking* -Laura From bard7696 at aol.com Tue Apr 29 03:20:15 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 03:20:15 -0000 Subject: Snape. Woo-HOO! With All Due Apologies to Captain Cindy. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56407 Deranimer wrote: > > Darrin observed that Snape's comment to Hermione about her teeth was really inexcusable, and the main reason he hates Snape. To which I can only say. . . well, yeah. > That's the most blatant example of why I dislike Snape, yes, but that is simply the most egregious example. He's got a fascinating code of honor. Like I said, Harry would probably have been willing to call any debt Snape felt quits if Snape would have just cut him, Ron, Hermione and maybe Neville a break once in a while. But Snape had to do it in his OWN way. I think Snape is an excellently drawn, interesting character. I would also rather drink one of his poisons than to spend much time with that character in person. > However. > > Look, as I read Snape, the man is a sadist. I think he probably > *enjoyed* being a DE--I think he'd probably enjoy, say, the odd > Unforgivable Curse *now* if he let himself do such a thing. I think > he certainly enjoyed the odd Unforgivable Curse back in the day. I > doubt he considers the occassional hideous appearance-related comment as anything to even *notice.* After what he's done, do you honestly think he would consider that cruelty? Real cruelty--I mean, I doubt it even registers on his Cruelty-o-Meter. > Let me say I love, and have espoused before, the idea of Snape wanting nothing more than to be a DE again, but something drew him out of it. Maybe it was the debt to James, or something he saw, heard, or was asked to do. But, yes, I think Snape would consider it cruel to say that to Hermione. I think it definitely registered. He's been around kids long enough to know what buttons to push on a 14-year-old girl with a minor appearance flaw like prominent front teeth. He knew EXACTLY what he was saying and what the reaction of Hermione would be. He got the trifecta in that scene. He made Hermione cry, angered Harry and Ron to the point where they cursed at him and he could give them detention and amused the Slyths. Later in the book, he reads passages of the "Harry and Hermione love story" Rita Skeeter wrote. No, Snape knows what he's doing. > Now, on to reasons to like Snape! > > 1. He switched sides. Somebody said that he may have done that simply because he "wanted to be on the winning side" but at the time of Voldemort's disappearance, the Good Guys *weren't* the winning side. Voldemort was in the ascendent, and to argue otherwise would seem to negate the whole point of The Boy Who Lived. The reason Harry is a hero is that he stopped Voldemort when *nothing* else could. I've always assumed that Voldemort was gaining power until the minute he tried to AK Harry. So Snape *left* the side that was apparently > winning, turned himself in to the Good Guys' side when he can't > possibly have known what they were going to do to him, turned spy for Dumbledore "at great personal risk"--and did all this probably > against his own instincts. So Snape *is* brave. (Another interesting> thing to note: it seems likely that JKR likes redemption stories, if > for no other reason than that her favorite books when she was a child > were the Chronicles of Narnia, and her favorite character within > those books was *Eustace.* Anyone who can love Eustace shouldn't have > any problem with Snape.) Good point about Voldemort being on the rise, and neatly skewers the idea of Snape being opportunistic, except for perhaps... Dumbledore is the only wizard Voldemort fears. Snape might have found that out and did a bit of Divination to see which way the wind would eventually blow. We are kind of left with the assumption that Snape defected to Dumbledore kind of on his own. And I agree that Snape had to make a tough decision. But it is also possible that Dumbledore went to Snape and convinced him to do it, and maybe Dumbledore said something that convinced Snape who the real winner would be. But, those are greater reaches than I prefer. I think the Opportunistic!Snape, at this point, is not the answer. > 2. He is talented. This one has been argued before: for examples, > feel free to ask me or one of my Snape-loving colleagues. A talented potion maker, maybe the best in the world? Yes. A speaker capable of scaring the crap out of first-years? Absolutely. But a teacher? Not sold on that yet. And I STILL think he's more ticked at Hermione because she beat his logic puzzle and made him look bad. > 3. He is intelligent enough to not get caught either by Voldemort-- > who didn't know he was a spy--or by Crouch's boys--it seems that > Crouch didn't know Snape's identity as a spy until after the end of > the war. Something to consider. Snape, interesting character that he is, might be playing both sides still. We do know that Dumbledore hasn't gotten it all right -- he bought Pettigrew's deception, faking his own death, apparently -- and didn't suspect Moody was Crouch, Jr. Snape might still be on V-Mort's side, and it's D-Dore who is being played for the fool. > 4. Related to 1 & 3: Come off it. He's a *spy.* The name is Snape, Severus Snape. The usual, Mr. Snape? Czechoslovakian Flame Vodka with a dash of salamander blood, topped with a twisted frog leg? Yes, remember, use expelliarums, not accio. > 5. He is more morally complex than just about any other character in the books that I can think of. And mysterious. And, to this point, continually fooling us all. On a purely literary level, he's a > tremendous character. Uh-huh. But that doesn't make him a likable person. Love the character for the skillfully drawn lines, but despise the lines, I say. 6. He's got guilt and angst and inner conflict. Plus, as I said > before, he's a sadist. So you get Hurt-Comfort and Comfort-Hurt all > in one! Woo-Hoo! embarrassing giggles, until she notices that an awful lot of people > seem to be staring at her, at which point she stops the giggles.> > Ahem. Yes. Well. This would be the DeadSexy part of the argument, I > suppose. > > 7. He's got an excellent reason for hating James and Harry Potter; he was in love with Lily and she most likely would not have died had she not married said James. She more especially would not have died had she not had said Harry. (SEE: Lollipops AND Harry as the Heir of > Gryffindor.) And he's got an excellent reason to hate Sirius in POA,> given that he's spent the past twelve years believing him to have betrayed said Lily. And wondering why he himself hadn't twigged to that one earlier, being a spy and all. (And there was that whole > Werewolf Incident, you know.) > GAHHHHH! More unrequited Lily!Love! Jeez, someone get take the guy to a Veela Stripper Club and get his mind off of it. Seriously, I've wondered if the thing Snape heard about or was asked to do that made him chuck the DE thing had to do with Lily. Darrin -- Wishing I could talk like Alan Rickman From KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET Tue Apr 29 02:35:19 2003 From: KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET (Linda) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 02:35:19 -0000 Subject: Lily NOT related to the Weasleys In-Reply-To: <20030429015929.83682.qmail@web21102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56408 I wrote: > > Is it just > > coincidence that Lily, like the entire Weasley family, has red hair? Kel wrote: >If that were the case, wouldn't Arthur have acted somewhat more familiar > with Petunia, at least, if she and her sister (and her parents) were > related to him? > > I say Arthur, bc I am assuming it is from him all the kids have the red > hair. But I suppose the cousin could be Molly's.... > > Ron might not know too much about this "distant cousin", but I'd be a bit > suprised if Arthur knew nothing about him/her. Now me again: I see your point. However, I do have a couple of rebuttals to your reasoning. First of all there is no cannon at all (that I can recall anyway) to tell us what color Molly's hair is, red or otherwise. ( If I'm wrong on that please let me know.) It could easily be the same as the rest of the family. Although I do wonder why it wouldn't be mentioned, but I'm getting off my point. More germain to the issue, however, is the difference in ages between Molly and Lily. Molly's cousin could easily be old enough to by Lily and Petunia's grandparent. Large families often have a large age spread from the oldest child to the youngest and perhaps the cousin in question was the daughter/son of an aunt that was quite a bit older than her mother. Further, if the cousin was female, it would have very easy to lose track of her once she married and took muggle name. It seems to me that it would be next to impossible to track all her children considering their lack of interaction with the muggle world in general, especially since any daughters she had would again take on another muggle name (probably) upon marrying. Add to that one more generation to get to Lily and Petunia and the task becomes even more difficult. Molly could be related to Harry and not know about it. I have six cousins that live in the same state I do(one of the smaller states at that) and I don't know anything about the lives they lead, who they are married to, any children they might have or even their addresses- and we are all muggles( at least I think we are). Just some more to think about. Linda From grace701 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 03:09:49 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 03:09:49 -0000 Subject: Lily related to the Weasleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56409 > bboy_mn: > > Since it's Arthur who has Red hair wouldn't the blood connection have > to be to Arthur? Or for that matter to any one of a zillion Irish > families? Unless I'm mistake the the anomaly of red hair occurs > primarily in the Irish and perhaps siginificantly in the Scotish too. > > Let's not forget that besides the mysterious Weasley cousin, there is > also an uncle they don't talk about who is an accountant. > > Just thought. I had thought about this as a possibility a long time ago and I don't see why not. As Steve has pointed it, Lily could be from Arthur's side of the family. The whole theory could be possible because we do not know anything about Lily's heritage (and James, as well) and all we know about the Weasleys' is that they have a muggle cousin who is an accountant and some uncle called Billsomething from GoF, that's it. You never know, it could be possible. Greicy From s_shortsnout at yahoo.ca Tue Apr 29 02:59:43 2003 From: s_shortsnout at yahoo.ca (s_shortsnout) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 02:59:43 -0000 Subject: Rosmerta Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56410 Hello everybody! I just had a quick question concerning Madam Rosmerta. Does anybody have any idea of her approximate age? I have just recently re-read POA, and am wondering how old she is? When she was talking with Hagrid, Fudge, etc... in the Three Brommsticks she mentions that she remembers James and Sirius when they were younger (they made her laugh and so on....)Is she supposed to be around the same age as James and Sirius, or is she older. For some reason I can't help but get the feeling that she is in her thirties and not any older than that. I say this because of the way she is described in the book (shapely, pretty face, she makes Ron's face go red etc...) Not a terribly important question, but something that's been on my mind recently. Any thoughts? "s_shortsnout" From myomorpha at hotmail.com Tue Apr 29 02:12:34 2003 From: myomorpha at hotmail.com (alchemia_dent) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 02:12:34 -0000 Subject: Anagrams of Severus Snape (was "If Snape is a vampire, he isn't bothered by sunlight...") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56411 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mlle_bienvenu" wrote: > Ah, yes, you're absolutely right. If anyone, Snape should be related > to Lily, which works just as well for me :D... I'd forgotten about > the Perseus Evans thing... I don't think that's a coincidence, it's > much too coincidental. JK has already used an anagram for one of her ... Snape's name also anagrams to: 'Save Pureness' what could *that* mean :-P "alchemia_dent" From abc10011 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 03:20:15 2003 From: abc10011 at yahoo.com (abc10011) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 03:20:15 -0000 Subject: On the complex issue of time travel Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56412 I think that there are 2 ways that time travel could happen. 1)The actual person from the past goes back in time when he is in the future. 2)A different person, the person from the future (NOT the same actual person from the past) goes back in time. According to the first way of understanding the question arises how is it possible that a person can save their past selves, how did they survive to be able to go save themselves. I think that if we say that time is not being made anew and it is instead already done and we are just progressing through it, then there is no before and after and therefore my question is answered. The truth is that if now I can see someone from later then it must be that later happened already because if not, later didn't happen yet for him to come back to now from later. However I do believe it is possible to disprove the first way of understanding as follows. It states that wizards have killed their past selves, well if it is the actual person from the past then if he is killed how was the wizard alive at the time that he went back. For ex. I went back at 5:00 to 2:00 and killed my past self at 3:00, so how was I there at 5:00 to go back in time, therefore it must be that the person who goes back in time is a "different" person and its like the second way of understanding. I do not profess to understand the second way and the truth is that the first way makes more sense but the proof is there. WHEW! Joe *who has a pounding headache* From hieya at hotmail.com Tue Apr 29 02:17:45 2003 From: hieya at hotmail.com (greatlit2003) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 02:17:45 -0000 Subject: Snape is NOT Sexy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56413 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "weeoo0" wrote: > > And is that what drives it, is it his bitter side that makes him > attractive? The ultimate veil of possible evil which hang over his > sallow thin hooknosed greasy head? His intelligence makes him very sexy. The man is clearly passionate about what he teaches (recall that brilliant speech during Harry's first Potions lesson). I also admire Snape for his courage (he left Voldemort at the height of his powers-as far as I know, no other person has done such a thing). He has risked his life to help Dumbledore fight Voldemort. He's got a way with words that is very attractive...But more than anything, for me it was appealing that he has a conscience. He saved Harry's life. So, in response to what you said, I like his potential for good more than a "veil of possible evil". He's got tremendous potential to be a "good" character (IMO he already is a good person). I think Snape is essentially a good person who has been struggling with some internal conflict for a long time--he is insecure about himself and his past. I think he projects that anger onto others around him (why else would he hate Harry from the moment he met the kid?) Once Snape learns to get over the past, I think (or rather, hope) that he will develop a better relationship with Harry & company. Personally, I think that his physical description is purposely used to make us think that he is bad--a greasy-haired, yellow-toothed, bad-tempered man who spends all day in the dungeons of a castle brewing nasty potions and then goes to sleep in a grey nightshirt--poor Snape, JKR has been a bit hard on him (he could have at least had a pair of pajamas)...but I think all these details are meant to mislead us (just as they have misled Harry) greatlit2003 "Or maybe, he's waiting to hear why you two didn't arrive on the school train" From purpleangelstar7 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 03:41:04 2003 From: purpleangelstar7 at yahoo.com (Brittany) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 03:41:04 -0000 Subject: Death In-Reply-To: <20030429003328.40976.qmail@web21205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56414 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ladi lyndi wrote: > > I've thought it might be Hagrid for the following > reason. Unless Voldemort is still going strong > at the end of the 7th book, something will have > to have changed since the last time he had power > since he won't get those 13 years he's demanded > from the Death Eaters. I've wondered if it is > the giants. As a theory, the giants come to like > and respect Hagrid if that is indeed his mission > or at least like and respect his mother who's > maternal feelings are reawakened with Hagrid's > visit. Hagrid gets killed by Voldemort. In > response, the giants turn against Voldemort and > help to bring about his destruction. > > Just a little theory of mine. > > Lynn > I'd always imagined that someone important in Harry's life, but not very important to the story line, would be the next in line to get the ax. I believe that J.K. was building up to some huge and very important character death by starting out with someone we kinda knew, then to someone who we like, to someone we love, then to someone who we couldn't live without. I see either Oliver(older brother figure), Percy(older administrative figure), or Cho(after H&C had a chance to build up their relationship). I hope I'm wrong but I feel that Oliver is the most likely choice. Oh well, nothing I can do but to worry 'til the book comes out. P-A-S 7 From purpleangelstar7 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 03:25:36 2003 From: purpleangelstar7 at yahoo.com (Brittany) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 03:25:36 -0000 Subject: Lily NOT related to the Weasleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56415 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Laura" wrote: > kelly wrote: > > > > > > If that were the case, wouldn't Arthur have acted somewhat more > familiar with Petunia, at least, if she and her sister (and her > parents) were related to him? > > I say Arthur, bc I am assuming it is from him all the kids have the > red hair. But I suppose the cousin could be Molly's.... > > > > Then Laura wrote: > Actually, I'm pretty sure *all* the Weasleys have red hair. Is there > any reference to Molly being something *other* than a red-head? I > know in PoA when Harry reads the article about them winning the Daily > Prophet contest, it says something along the lines of "and there > stood [all the Weasleys] all, although the black-and-white picture > didn't show it, with flaming red hair." I remember reading this > while another related topic was being discussed, so I paid specific > attention to it. Although I don't remember the exact quote, it > definitely implied that *all* the Weasleys are red-headed. Unless > there is some other reference to Molly not having red hair? > > -Laura Hmm... What an interesting idea to pop in my head. We all know that we have relatives that we've neither seen or heard from in our life unless some family crisis comes up. What if Molly (Or Authur)is actually related to Petunia, but they've never seen or heard of her. That could explain why Petunia's name or face didn't ring a bell in Molly's (or Authur's) mind at the time. I mean, maybe the immediate Weasley family thinks that the distant relative is a squib, not a full blown muggle. I'm sure that if Authur knew that he has a muggle in the family, he'd want to investigate her all the time :). Anyways, just a silly thought. P-A-S 7 From william.truderung at sympatico.ca Tue Apr 29 04:00:52 2003 From: william.truderung at sympatico.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 04:00:52 -0000 Subject: Rosmerta In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56416 I always thought that she was somewhat older that James & Sirius. >From the text, it sounded to me as if she was already a (full-time) barmaid when J & S were still students at Hogwarts. As for still looking fairly young, magic-using people do live longer than Muggles. Dumbledore is 150, and McGonnagall is 'a spritely 70', according to JKR. If magic-using people age at the same rate as Muggles until maturity (say, 18) and then at half the rate as Muggles from then on, the Dumbledore would be biologically 18 + (150-18)/2 = 79 years old, which seems about right, and McGonnagall would be 18 + (70-18)/2 = 44 years old, biologically, which would fit the 'spritely' description. So, if Rosmerta were 4 or 5 years older than James & Sirius, she would be chronologically 40 years old, or biologically 29 years old, which fits her description. Bill From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 04:07:38 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 04:07:38 -0000 Subject: Is Snape unfair with House Points? (WAS Re: Teacher Ratings (Was: Why I hate Hag In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56417 Bill wrote: Snape - Potions - 0 points (grossly unfair with house points, minus 3 points, cruel to targeted students, minus 4 points, undercuts other teachers, minus 1 point) END QUOTE. I reply: There is absolutely zero canon to support the notion that Snape is unfair with House Points. We have never seen him give any Slytherin student any points at all, never mind excessive and undeserved points, which is a very common idea around here. Now, to be fair, while I can't recall him actually *taking* any points from a Slytherin, we have seen him take points from the other three houses. And if Harry, Ron, and Hermione get more points taken from them than the others, don't you think that it might be the result of above average rule-breaking on the part of the Trio? Or above average rudeness to and disrespect for a teacher on the part of the Trio? In other words, if Harry, Ron, and Hermione lose lots of House Points for Gryffindor, it's not the fault of the teacher who takes the points away - it's the fault of the students who continuously disregard the rules. And besides, it doesn't matter how many points the three lose for Gryffindor - canon has established a very clear trend of Dumbledore rewarding them with unbelievably unbalanced amounts of points at the end of the school year (for instance, Ron's two-hundred points awarded at the end of CoS for doing absolutely nothing) which results in Gryffindor unexpectedly winning the House Cup over, and over, and over again. I think that we, as a readership, are annoyed when Snape targets Harry et al, I mean, I know that I am. But I'm trying to be more conscientious about this - after all, Harry is an over the top rule breaker, so in many senses, he deserves to lose his points. And again, it's not Snape's fault he catches Harry breaking the rules. It's Harry's fault for breaking them. -Tom From jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu Tue Apr 29 04:48:58 2003 From: jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu (Jonathan Pessin) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 23:48:58 -0500 Subject: Snape is NOT Sexy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56418 Sarah (weeoo0) stated: I say: Right on, weeoo0! I have to say, this is a subject near and dear to my heart, as well. I find the idea incomprehensible in the extreme. In fact, I've made my own acronym to the effect: S.L.Y.T.H.E.R.I.N.S.: Snape Looks Yucky! Total Heresy to Equate with Rickman - Interesting, but Not Sexy!!! melclaros wrote: Sarah replied: I say: You forgot one. in PoA, chapter 14, US paperback page 285, JKR indicates that his lack of hygiene is not limited to hair, but extends to teeth: "Snape's uneven, yellowish teeth were bared." Combine that with the expressions he is described as wearing: at most times, a scowl or snarl. Even when he does smile, JKR uses phrases such as "horrible smile" (284) and "terrible grin" (285). Charming, indeed. Sarah continued: I say: I don't know. I've never really found hateful, spiteful, or sadistic people sexy. Some people might like the thought of redeeming the evil among them, but I've always figured, "eh, too much effort." Besides, someone (most likely the redeemer) could get hurt. Sarah continued insightfully: I pause, shudder, and let Sarah continue: I reply: This is my personal theory. I think that most Sexy-Snapers have been either consciously or subconsciously influenced by fanfiction or TMTMNBN I and II. Rickman is a great actor, and he plays the part quite well, but I don't think he's quite, well, UNPLEASANT enough for Snape. This is a guy whom most students hate after their first class - well, unless they're Slytherins... Sarah concludes: I conclude as well: Amen, my sister. He's a very mysterious, intriguing character - the type I myself love to hate. He's the "teacher you can't stand" that everybody seems to have at one time in their life. He's surely got a big future in the books some way or other; his narrative value is incredible. As a character in a book, I love him and I hope he'll be around 'till book 7. As a person and/or a teacher, I want to fire him, covere him in bobotuber pus, and punch that crooked nose 'till it's straight in the other direction. My dislike aside, I just can't see him as sexy. not one bit. Weeoo0, you and I shall wear our S.L.Y.T.H.E.R.I.N.S. badges with pride. ::puts on a green flashing S.L.Y.T.H.E.R.I.N.S. badge:: Hobbit-guy, who's actually usually thought of himself as a Hufflepuff, but whatever... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You haven't been getting into the Gaffer's home brew again, have you?" "No... Well, yes, but that's beside the point." -Frodo and Bilbo Baggins, Fellowship of the Rings Extended Edition DVD From william.truderung at sympatico.ca Tue Apr 29 05:00:11 2003 From: william.truderung at sympatico.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 05:00:11 -0000 Subject: Is Snape unfair with House Points? (WAS Re: Teacher Ratings (Was: Why I hate Hag In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56419 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall" wrote: > There is absolutely zero canon to support the notion that Snape is > unfair with House Points. PoA, chapter 9: 'Which of you can tell me how we distinguish between the werewolf and the true wolf?' sais Snape. Everyone sat in motionless silence; everyone except Hermione, whose hand, as it so often did, had shot straight into the air. 'Anyone?' Snape said, ignoring Hermione. 'Please, sir,' said Hermione, whose hand was still in the air, 'the werewolf differs from the true wolf in several small ways. The snout of the werewolf -' 'That is the second time you have spoken out of turn, Miss Granger,' said Snape cooly. 'Five more points from Gryffindor for being an insufferable know-it-all.' Bill From william.truderung at sympatico.ca Tue Apr 29 05:13:31 2003 From: william.truderung at sympatico.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 05:13:31 -0000 Subject: Snape is NOT Sexy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56420 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Pessin" wrote: You forgot one. in PoA, chapter 14, US paperback page 285, JKR indicates that his lack of hygiene is not limited to hair, but extends to teeth: "Snape's uneven, yellowish teeth were bared." Combine that with the expressions he is described as wearing: at most times, a scowl or snarl. Even when he does smile, JKR uses phrases such as "horrible smile" (284) and "terrible grin" (285). Charming, indeed. Me: I am currently compiling every single description of the people in the HP books. So far I am up to chapter 5 of GoF. Here are all the physical descriptions of Severus Snape in the first three books: SNAPE, SEVERUS PS7 ... a teacher with greasy black hair, a hooked nose and sallow skin. PS7 The hook-nosed teacher ... PS7 ... the hook-nosed teacher, Snape ... PS8 His eyes were black like Hagrid's, but they had none of Hagrid's warmth. They were cold and empty and made you think of dark tunnels. PS8 ... those cold eyes. CS5 He was a thin man with sallow skin, a hooked nose and greasy, shoulder-length hair ... CS9 ... his black eyes glittering ... CS9 ... his gaunt face. CS11 ... whose black eyes glinted ... PA5 ... his thin, sallow face. PA7 ... his hooked nose ... his long, greasy black hair. PA7 ... his black eyes glittering ... PA7 ... his eyes were glittering ... PA7 Hook-nosed and menacing ... PA8 His eyes flashed menacingly ... PA8 ... his black eyes narrowing. PA9 Snape's black eyes glittered. PA14 ... Snape's black eyes ... PA14 Snape's thin mouth ... PA14 ... his eyes glinting. PA14 ... his thin face ... PA14 ... black eyes flashing dangerously. PA14 Snape's sallow skin ... PA14 Snape's uneven, yellowish teeth were bared. PA14 ... his long nostrils ... PA14 Snape's eyes gleamed. PA14 `... abnormally large nose ...' PA14 `... an ugly git.' PA14 `... advises him to wash his hair, the slimeball.' PA19 ... a mad glint in Snape's eye ... PA22 ... Snape's thin mouth ... Let's compare that to the descriptions of Argus Finch in the same three books: FILCH, ARGUS PS8 ... bulging, lamplike eyes just like Filch's PS12 ... Filch's pale, wild eyes ... PS12 ... his soft, greasy voice ... CS8 ... his jowls aquiver, his eyes popping alarmingly ... CS8 ... his bulbous nose. CS8 Filch's pasty face went brick red. CS8 Filch's knobbly hands ... CS8 His eyes were popping, a tic was going in one of his pouchy cheeks ... CS9 ... his popping eyes ... CS9 ... his eyes popping. Speaking for myself, Filch's descriptions sound BETTER than Snape's. Bill From tammy at mauswerks.net Tue Apr 29 05:58:59 2003 From: tammy at mauswerks.net (Tammy Rizzo) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 01:58:59 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] On the complex issue of time travel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3EADDC63.21712.2DD5207@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 56421 On 29 Apr 2003 at 3:20, abc10011 wrote: > It states that wizards have killed their > past selves, well if it is the actual person from the past then if he > is killed how was the wizard alive at the time that he went back. For > ex. I went back at 5:00 to 2:00 and killed my past self at 3:00, so > how was I there at 5:00 to go back in time, therefore it must be that > the person who goes back in time is a "different" person and its like > the second way of understanding. I do not profess to understand the > second way and the truth is that the first way makes more sense but > the proof is there. WHEW! Joe *who has a pounding headache* Hey, Joe, have an aspirin or two, on me. :-) Now, are you sure it said in the books that some wizards have killed their *PAST* selves, or just their selves? Because the way I remember reading it (haven't gotten to PoA again yet, but I'm close) was that their past selves would see their future selves, freak out 'cause they wouldn't really understand what was going on, and kill their future selves. No more wizard, but no paradox, either. One might wonder why, if a wizard had seen and killed someone who looked uncannily like himself, he would then later trust himself to a TimeTurner, but it could well be that his future self, the one who gets killed by his past self, wouldn't realize until too late that he was treading dangerous ground, because things always look different from different perspectives. Harry didn't quite realize that he was the one he'd seen casting the Patronus, until he was right there on the spot and his 'savior' hadn't shown up yet. A wizard who plays with a TimeTurner might not realize that he was the one he'd killed until he was already in the death zone and saw his own wand raised against him. Too late. Argh. It's too late for me to be thinking, let alone thinking about time travel and paradoxes!! :-) I don't know -- did this make any sense at all? *** Tammy tammy at mauswerks.net From ivanova at idcnet.com Tue Apr 29 03:54:51 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 22:54:51 -0500 Subject: iRe: [HPforGrownups] Snape is NOT Sexy References: Message-ID: <001701c30e03$1705c250$79ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 56422 From: weeoo0 Sexy as all get out? How, Why? In PP/SS we first hear Snape described as "a teacher with Greasy black hair, a hooked nose, and sallow skin" (PP, pg 94 Can ed. soft cover) later, we read of Snape possesing eyes that "were black like Hagrid's, but they had none of Hagrids warmth. They were cold and empty, and made you think of dark tunnels." (pg102) In CoS we once again read of Snape as "a thin man with sallow skin, a hooked nose, and greasy shoulder-length black hair" (p62, sofcover) In PoA we once again note Snape's thin sallow face On GoF, it's same old, only with "overlarge nostrils" (473 US HC) Now, I simply am unable to see how such a person is considered so ...sexy ..... okay, okay, yes that is just his physical description, sallow greasy, a hooked nose, but mum always said, it's what's inside that counts. From: Me I agree, although I have found the description for his eyes "made you think of dark tunnels" quite fascinating. But not in a sexy way. From: weeoo0 Yet still i hav a hard time understanding the intimite attraction of Snape who is, despite any possible need to present a certain persona in front of certain company, a nonetheless, spiteful, bitter, sarcastic, man. And is that what drives it, is it his bitter side that makes him attractive? The ultimate veil of possible evil which hang over his sallow thin hooknosed greasy head? From: Me I think what attracts many people to Snape is a combination of things. He has an aura of power and mystery about him. As has been mentioned in other posts, his use of voice and body language is a factor for some. He has a dark past, and although he has changed sides, his personality is nowhere near being the archetypal good/nice guy. Other reasons I see that people could find him sexy: he's like the boy from the wrong side of the tracks. Portrays this really nasty persona to the world, appears to have "got it covered," and most people hate him and/or just don't want to associate with him for whatever reason. But of course, if he could JUST find the right girl that can see through his tough, hardened exterior and see him for the hurt little boy he really is, they can turn him into the nice, good boy they know is lurking inside. And, of course, he will love her for it and completely reform his life. Ok, so this sounds like some fanfic, but I think there's something to it. From: Weeoo0 So why is it that Snape is sexy? Is it simply a case of movie contamination, of Rickmania, whom I have heard women, and some men, tote to be "the sexiest voice ever"? From: Me I have to agree with another poster. My interest in Snape really began with his revealing the Dark Mark to Fudge. Earlier in the book, when we found out that Snape had been a DE, I had wondered if he had truly turned from him or if he was one of those who said he had just so he wouldn't get in trouble. When I saw him show the Mark, though, it just seemed to solidify in my mind that he had really turned against Voldemort. In that moment, he became my "favorite" character because he had done this but yet hasn't had a total change of personality as well. You may have noted that favorite is in quotations; this is because although I use that word, I find it hard to apply to one with a personality such as his. As for the Rickman factor, it did not change my opinion at all about Snape not being a sexy character. I did squeal with delight upon hearing he had been cast in the role, for I knew immediately that he was perfect for the part and no other would do (and I'm someone who's endlessly picky about who should play what). But I did not come to find him any sexier, just delighted in seeing Snape brought to the screen with justice (at least in the acting department). Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From s_shortsnout at yahoo.ca Tue Apr 29 05:09:46 2003 From: s_shortsnout at yahoo.ca (s_shortsnout) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 05:09:46 -0000 Subject: Sirius' name Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56423 I don't know how many of you already know this, but I just found this out and thought it quite interesting. Now we all know that Sirius' name derives from Sirius, the "dog star", the brightest star in the sky and in the constellation Canis Major (one of Orion's hunting dogs).However, Sirius is actually a binary star. The more prominent of the two, Sirius A, is a white star with a small oval orbit around Sirius B, "the pup", a black dwarf that is undetectable to the human eye. So I guess Sirius's name is actually derives from Sirius B, the Black Dwarf, or "the Pup", which makes sense because his name is "Sirius Black" and his animagus form makes him undetactable to the human eye. Like I said, I don't know if most of you knew this, but I thought it interesting....I thought his name derived from "Sirius A", I had no idea there was a Sirius B! "S Shortsnout" From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Tue Apr 29 06:50:44 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 07:50:44 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: Severus Snape, Sex God of Slytherin (was Snape is NOT Sexy) References: Message-ID: <3EAE20C4.000004.98555@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 56424 Sarah somewhat bravely wrote - SNAPE IS NOT SEXY That is correct, Severus Snape, Potions Master Extroardinaire, in all his deep mysteriousness, in all his complexity, to the very depths of his possibly tortured soul, vampire or not, good or bad, Severus Snape, is not sexy. Now me - Firstly - I can't claim to be one of those who found him sexy before I saw the film - but that's because the film was my introdution to the Potterverse But, with the exception of that delicious voice of his, Alan Rickman is about as far from sexy as I've ever seen him in this role. Snape on the other hand is irresistable. I'll repeat some of what others have said about him. He's clearly passionate at least about potions (and to someone like me who can talk passionately about her own pet interests no matter how boring others find them that's a selling point). He's intelligent (major selling point for me, I could never be attracted to someone stupid) and not just academically. It shows in his turn of phrase in class, especially when he's being deeply unpleasant to someone - and since he's mainly being unpleasant to the Gryffindors I don't care so much about that. I think everyone else does favour them (at least over Slytherin - we don't see enough of the other 2 houses to say either way). He has a certain flair for the dramatic (waiting until the perfect moment to announce his presence to Ron and Harry in CoS for a start). He's mysterious - we really know nothing certain about his past except for 1 - he was a Death Eater at some point and 2 - he managed to do something that pissed Sirius off enough to try and feed him to a werewolf (which far outweighs verbally abusing your students in my book as a reason to hate someone and yet Sirius is almost universally accepted as sexy). He's courageous - showing his Dark Mark off to make a point, betraying Voldemor (for whatever reason), actually following *Remus* back into the Shrieking Shack on the night of a full moon, knowing he hasn't taken his potion. Personally I think if a werewolf had nearly eaten me I would have no desire to go back to the scene of the incident, even 20 years later, but especially at night, on a full moon and knowing that the werewolf in question was in there too. What I don't think anyone has mentioned is that he is powerful and compelling (you might hate him but you can't look away, sort of like a car crash ). I think he must be magically powerful to have been close to Voldemort at such a young age (and I think he must have been close to him to have been summoned at the end of GoF, unless Voldemort summoned *all* his DEs in which case he's rather understrength). Not to mention I don't think anyone in the magic world can excel at their discipline to the extent that Snape is without being magically powerful. And that kind of power can be one heck of an aphrodisiac. Besides I have a thing for the Slytherins as a whole (not that I think they re all sexy by any means). So yes Snape is sexy (don't you think he'd just hate to be called that?) K From dkewpie at pacbell.net Tue Apr 29 06:54:19 2003 From: dkewpie at pacbell.net (Kewpie) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 06:54:19 -0000 Subject: Snape is NOT Sexy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56425 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Pessin" wrote: > Sarah (weeoo0) stated: > > "Snape's uneven, yellowish teeth were bared." Big deal! So does the Beatles and they have billions of girls crazy over them and consider them the sexiest men ever! Greasy Oily long black hair hooked nose sallow skin? Works on many rock stars! Physical is NOT the only the ultimate reason women find a man sexy, period. Many think Ben Affleck is the sexiest men alive while he's yucky and lame to me. Just because you have taste on standard conventional beauty standard doesn't mean everyone does. Besides, what is Sexy? Those of you keep emphasing how you understand Snape being a mysterious/interesting/compelling character, yet he's no way sexy. To me, mysterious/interesting/compelling = sexy. Sexy is beyond just physical appearance, at least to me. Many have already expressed why Snape is sexy and I wholeheartly agree with them. I guess you either get it or not. If you just can't see it, so what? Just accept the fact he's not your cup of tea, but that doesn't mean he's not others' cup of tea. Joan From titaniclady_1912 at hotmail.com Tue Apr 29 07:53:11 2003 From: titaniclady_1912 at hotmail.com (Anne(Anja)) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 07:53:11 -0000 Subject: Anagrams of Severus Snape (was "If Snape is a vampire, he isn't bothered by sunlight...") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56426 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mlle_bienvenu" > wrote: > > > > Ah, yes, you're absolutely right. If anyone, Snape should be > related > > to Lily, which works just as well for me :D... I'd forgotten about > > the Perseus Evans thing... I don't think that's a coincidence, it's > > much too coincidental. JK has already used an anagram for one of > her ... > > I don't think that the Perseus Evans anagram has any meaning either. It may work for the English edition of the books , but for France (Severus Rogue) and Italy (Severus Piton , if I am not mistaken) it doesn't make any sense. If Rowling really wanted to make him Lily's brother , she would probably have insisted on keeping it "Severus Snape" in all languages. Anja From titaniclady_1912 at hotmail.com Tue Apr 29 08:09:58 2003 From: titaniclady_1912 at hotmail.com (Anne(Anja)) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 08:09:58 -0000 Subject: Snape is NOT Sexy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56427 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatlit2003" wrote: I think Snape is essentially a good > person who has been struggling with some internal conflict for a > long time--he is insecure about himself and his past. I think he > projects that anger onto others around him (why else would he hate > Harry from the moment he met the kid?) That's exactly how I see him . For me , it is his mysterious past and the obvious secrets that go with it which makes me -let's say attracted - to him. I have to admit he is not the kind of person I would want to meet in real life but as a character in a children's book he is simply outstanding. I think that there's an explanation behind almost all of his actions , including his treatment of Harry and his friends. We still don't know what happened between him and James while they were at school and possibly even after they graduated. Dumbledore compared their relationship to the one of Draco and Harry but I don't think it was all the same. In my opinion , Severus is NOT Draco and therefore his hatred for James had completely different reasons than Draco's hatred for Harry. Let's hope we will find a good explanation for this in the future books. Anja (who thinks that Snape is terribly sexy) From weeoo0 at yahoo.ca Tue Apr 29 08:10:36 2003 From: weeoo0 at yahoo.ca (weeoo0) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 08:10:36 -0000 Subject: Snape is NOT Sexy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56428 "Kewpie" wrote: > > Physical is NOT the only the ultimate reason women find a man sexy, > period. Many think Ben Affleck is the sexiest men alive while he's > yucky and lame to me. Just because you have taste on standard > conventional beauty standard doesn't mean everyone does. No, physicality is not the only or ultimate reason to find a man sexy, I agree. Heck, I also find Benny Boy kinda lame, although i must say in my own defense that I am hardly known among my peers for upholding a conventional standard of beauty, hardly. And finding Snape not sexy hardly defines one as an obviousely shallow person hell bent on using beauty as a marker for all things worthy does it? I do believe i went into some persoanlity issues which i think made him partucularly unsexy to me, or at least ambiguouse on a sexy scale! and continued: > Many have already expressed why Snape is sexy and I wholeheartly > agree with them. I guess you either get it or not. If you just can't > see it, so what? Just accept the fact he's not your cup of tea, but > that doesn't mean he's not others' cup of tea. Snape is my cup of tea in many ways, he just isn't sexy, not to me. Ahhh, you seem rather defensive in this post. I in no way intended to offend any of the avid Snape-Is-To-Die-For-Sexy fans out there. Really! I simply to decided to go for broke with a blatant blanket statement which, I felt, summed up the argument i wished to present ( that, of course, being that Snape is NOT sexy) The sexyness that is Snape is truly something which has alluded me, since i first became aware of its existence, and i merely hoped to spurn some intelligent conversation regarding it, such that I might be more adaquately able to understand 'the other side'. Power, many of you posted power as a defining factor to the sexyness of Snape. Power i can understand. Power is sexy, damn sexy. However, when Snape uses his power of authority to insult young and impressionable students ( the 'I see know difference' comment which has recently been discussed in other topic posts), I no longer find that authority sexy, but, maybe that's just me. But power and authority are not the same I suppose, merely part of the same family. I see Snape more as a darkly sublime character, his opening speeach, his ability to whisper and have the students hang upon his every word, indeed, his power. I interpret more as a character who leaves you in awe. Sarah - who was ecstatic to note so many responses to the Sexy!Snape debate, although is not yet ready to take off hey S.L.Y.T.H.E.R.I.N. button Hobbit guy handed her backstage. Weeoo0 From iluvgahan at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 07:03:53 2003 From: iluvgahan at yahoo.com (iluvgahan) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 00:03:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Snape Message-ID: <20030429070353.10113.qmail@web13508.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56429 I haven't written in a while but I have to show some support for my fellow Snape admirers. When I read the book, sexy wasn't the first word I would have used to describe Snape. But I always thought he was one of the most interesting characters there is in the books. He is mysterious, intelligent, powerful in his own way, and I am DYING to know his full story. But one of the things that totally attracted me to his character is that he is so human. Don't get me wrong, I love Harry, Dumbledore, et al, but they are decribed, (in my opinion, at least) as being too damn good, benevolent, etc. The fact that Snape is at times a friggin' bastard is what makes me love his character. As to whether or not he is sexy...I think in some small way he is sexy (from his character description in the book) but I fully admit that I absolutely fell in love with Snape when I saw Rickman portray him. The voice, the hair, the way he carries himself, and the voice (I felt it needed repeating)...I mean, hey, for a man in his fifties ya gotta hand it to Rickamn--he looks damn good SO I admit some movie contamination, what are you gonna do? Send me a Howler? ;P Christina, who agrees that Sean Connery is still sexy and is starting to notice she has a thing for older guys __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From titaniclady_1912 at hotmail.com Tue Apr 29 08:56:57 2003 From: titaniclady_1912 at hotmail.com (Anne(Anja)) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 08:56:57 -0000 Subject: Snape. Woo-HOO! With All Due Apologies to Captain Cindy. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56430 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > Deranimer wrote: > > Let me say I love, and have espoused before, the idea of Snape > wanting nothing more than to be a DE again, but something drew him > out of it. Maybe it was the debt to James, or something he saw, > heard, or was asked to do. > I don't think so since I doubt that Dumbledore would trust him or let him work as a teacher if he was still a DE at heart. Back in the days when he worked as a spy for the good side , it would have been especially difficult to trust him if he was permanently endangered to betray Dumbledore and become a follower of LV again. I also can't believe that Dumbledore would have made him Head of House if he was still a believer in DE ethics. We have never seen Snape saying anything against muggles or "mudbloods" and I actually don't think he gives much on this kind of stuff (like Malfoys and the DEs do). I dare to say that he is far too intelligent for that. Sure , he must have had his reasons for joining the DEs but I honestly believe he regrets every moment of his time with Voldemort. In GOF , we have that scene in which Fake!Moody talks about spots that never go away (I don't have the exact quote). Reacting to that , Snape grabs his arm and looks as though he were angry about himself. For me , this is clearly a sign of the guilt he feels for what he's done. I think his most desperate wish is too forget his past and , maybe even more important , to get rid of the Dark Mark which reminds him every day of the biggest fault of his life. For returning to the good side just because of his life debt to James , this seems quite unlikely although it may have been one of the reasons. This wouldn't have been enough of a reason to gain Dumbledore's trust. Beside , if he was really that fond of killing and torturing , he would never have given up all the things he loved just because of a debt to his old enemy James. Talking about the Unforgivables , I want to add that we all know what he thinks of silly wand waving , although I have to admit that he seems to be quite good at it (COS). Anja From JessaDrow at aol.com Tue Apr 29 10:30:02 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 06:30:02 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dudley *spoilers* Message-ID: <1e5.7c5aa6f.2bdfae2a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56431 In a message dated 4/28/03 10:09:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, samwise_the_grey at yahoo.com writes: > http://www.bookmagazine.com/issue28/unfogging.shtml > I just read the interview for the first time and thank you. i'm not worse anxious for the book to come out. *grins* Does anyone have any idea about the ninety-three-word synopsis? I really don't think I like the idea of Ron and death being mentioned in the same paragraph. ~Faith~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Tue Apr 29 10:45:47 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 10:45:47 -0000 Subject: Character flaws (was Why I hate Hagrid) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56432 Robin wrote: (10 reasons to dislike Hagrid snipped) > > Many of these reasons are very petty. Many of these "faults" are found in > many of the main characters. Indeed, many of these might be reasons to like him in a book, however much of a problem he might present for Dumbledore and parents if he existed in real life. However, Robin, do you think you could expand a bit on how you see the other main characters exhibiting these flaws, and how that affects how you like or dislike them? Nearly every Hogwarts staff member (even Dumbledore and MacGonagall) has been criticised on this list from a professional teaching point of view. Personally, I like 'em all. David From melclaros at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 13:01:07 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 13:01:07 -0000 Subject: Is Snape unfair with House Points? (WAS Re: Teacher Ratings (Was: Why I hate Hag In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56433 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mongo62aa" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall" > wrote: > > > There is absolutely zero canon to support the notion that Snape is > > unfair with House Points. > > PoA, chapter 9: > > 'Which of you can tell me how we distinguish between the werewolf and > the true wolf?' sais Snape. > > Everyone sat in motionless silence; everyone except Hermione, whose > hand, as it so often did, had shot straight into the air. > > 'Anyone?' Snape said, ignoring Hermione. > > > > 'Please, sir,' said Hermione, whose hand was still in the air, 'the > werewolf differs from the true wolf in several small ways. The snout > of the werewolf -' > > 'That is the second time you have spoken out of turn, Miss Granger,' > said Snape cooly. 'Five more points from Gryffindor for being an > insufferable know-it-all.' > > Bill I'd have taken ten.... I know...one liner. Howler on the way... Mel From heidit at netbox.com Tue Apr 29 13:03:34 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 09:03:34 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dudley *spoilers* Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56434 Faith asked: Does anyone have any idea about the ninety-three-word synopsis? I really don't think I like the idea of Ron and death being mentioned in the same paragraph. *** Faith, et al - I'm an editor at The Leaky Cauldron (we of the December fundraiser for the card) and we've seen all the rumors. There's one with elipses between each word- it's a known fraud because a tiny snip of the card was shown on the sotheby's site, and there's at least one "phrase" without elipses in it. There's also a clever one which purports to list words from the book. Other than the words made public by sotheby's, all the words on the card are things like "a" and "the". Heidi Tandy Follow me to FictionAlley - Harry Potter fanfics of all shapes, sizes and ships - 7 sickles an ounce http://www.FictionAlley.org From severin_szaltis at yahoo.co.uk Tue Apr 29 10:52:31 2003 From: severin_szaltis at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?L=20Finn?=) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 11:52:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Harry's POV was Snape is NOT Sexy In-Reply-To: <1051579286.9757.93989.m11@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030429105231.76529.qmail@web20703.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56435 I won?t say why I think Snape could be sexy for some people, I think Sushi covered that one well enough... But I am puzzled at this Harry POV mentioned in this thread and others. "As for the books description of Snape, remember that the books are told from Harry's POV. Harry doesn't like Snape so he'll exaggerate Snape's physical characteristics. Sure, Snape is definatly not the most physically attractive character in the book (greasy hair, big nose) but that doesn't mean he's totally, completely ugly. Nobody accuses Viktor Krum of being repellant and his physical description is reasonably similar to Snape's." DrMM Sure, the books are Harry centric and we follow Harry about, but it isn?t him describing things. As something happens it is related to the reader, but not by Harry. It is athough he?s carrying a video cam about and we get to see what is recorded by it. The first description given of Ron isn?t overly flattering either, '...tall, thin and gangling, with freckles, big hands and feet and a long nose.? (PS pg 70) But this isn?t because Harry doesn?t like Ron, it?s because that?s the basics of Ron?s appearance. So although we see the world that Harry sees, I?m not sure that we can say that descriptions of Snape or of any thing/one else are tainted by Harry?s bias/POV. Except were we?re told, ?or so it seemed to Harry,? or somesuch similar attachment they are just bald descriptions, not Harry?s opinion... Unless that is, we are also to assume that Snape?s long black cloak is only long and black to Harry, that Hermione?s hair is only bushy in Harry?s opinion and that if we looked with our own eyes Hagrid?s peepers would be pink and Snape?s hair really would be glossy not greasy. SS ~;o) "...little things are infinitely the most important." --------------------------------- Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kenneyjohn at yahoo.com.au Tue Apr 29 11:29:28 2003 From: kenneyjohn at yahoo.com.au (kenney) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 11:29:28 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's won my vote (was Why I hate Hagrid) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56436 Hagrid indeed has his faults. No one is denying life would be a lot simpler if our half giant weren't gumming up the works, however: Hagrid's heart is in the exact place it should be. His warm generosity (if often confused and befuddled) portrays his character as that of an egocentric uncle figure, whom has progressed into an adult phase of his life, but has never been allowed to grow up in the world he was meant to. A type of outcast, he has only recently been given the freedom to explore the world he craves to be a part of. from the Key of Kenney whom like others have 53 post-it notes to be striped off my wall day by date until the release of the fifth. From jsummerill at summerillj.freeserve.co.uk Tue Apr 29 11:39:42 2003 From: jsummerill at summerillj.freeserve.co.uk (jotwo2003) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 11:39:42 -0000 Subject: Other anagrams - Sirius Black Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56437 People have tried the anagram game on lots of character names, not just Snape. On other lists, I've seen it pointed out that Sirius Black includes basilisk. I've now checked for anagrams in the name Sirius Black myself. It does indeed contain the word basilisk. This leaves 3 letters left over: r, u and c. These can be rearranged to spell the word cur. This could apply to Sirius, as his animagus form is Padfoot. Cur is a synonym for dog but it means specifically an ill-tempered or worthless dog. Taking this together with Voldemort's connection to the basilisk, I've had a shocking thought. Maybe Sirius is a baddie. Even though I believe in LOLLIPOPS, I've never disliked Sirius. I've always accepted him at face value. He's an innocent man imprisoned for a crime that he did not commit. Thus I felt sympathy towards his suffering. I was also convinced by the argument that Sirius played the Whomping Willow trick on Snape without realising what the consequences might be. So far in the books Sirius has done nothing but be protective and caring towards Harry, so this sudden suspicion is probably reading too much into things. On the other hand, if Sirius betrayed Harry, it would be a shocking twist. In conclusion, Sirius is probably one of the good guys until proven otherwise. But you never know with JKR Jo From Lynx412 at aol.com Tue Apr 29 13:18:12 2003 From: Lynx412 at aol.com (Lynx412 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 09:18:12 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Old member returning in anticipation of OotP Message-ID: <1d2.8837eda.2bdfd594@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56438 In a message dated 4/28/03 10:53:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bard7696 at aol.com writes: > -- Worried though that the Polyjuice will get to be like the masks in > Mission: Impossible -- OVERDONE! I hope not. My only problem with Polyjuiced!villain came with my second reading of GoF, when I went...no, she didn't just do a Scooby plot..."I'd have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for you kids and that ..." Cheryl the Lynx, ducking and running.... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kenneyjohn at yahoo.com.au Tue Apr 29 11:37:38 2003 From: kenneyjohn at yahoo.com.au (kenney) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 11:37:38 -0000 Subject: Wedding Bells for the House of Cats Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56439 On recent inspection of Goblet, I have discovered the possible husband of Mrs Figg. "I borrowed this from Perkins at the office" Mr Weasley reveals his tent to be borrowed from a man unwilling to go camping anymore. J.K. makes three specific references to MRS Figg on the same page. Mrs, as in Married! If these tents belonged to the Figg Family, perhaps the Weasleys knew the Figg family personally and has kept a watchful eye on Mr Potter; perhaps Ron met Harry with a little bit more than chance on the first day of Hogwarts Again from the Mysterious Key of Kenney Who spent 30 minutes downloading Bloomsbury's recent screensaver for the OOP From tammy at mauswerks.net Tue Apr 29 13:21:56 2003 From: tammy at mauswerks.net (Tammy Rizzo) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 09:21:56 -0400 Subject: You're right, Snape is NOT Sexy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3EAE4434.19951.472D95B@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 56440 I have to chime in on this Sexy!Snape thing here. There have been several points brought up, both for and against Sexy!Snape, and they are all very valid. He's a slimy git, he's extremely unattractive (albeit we do only see him through the eyes of an adolescent boy, whose standards are, umm, shall we say, different from most women's), he seems sublimely cruel and heartless, he is quite powerful in many ways, he's not afraid to use and abuse his power, he's a poet, he has a dark and mysterious past, he is passionate about his potions, he turned his back on the ascendant power of Voldemort to fight his former master, he has an intellect over and above most other wizards we've met (think of that one wizard who couldn't understand why his woman's bathrobe was not 'proper' Muggle attire for the QWC), he shows great courage, he carries grudge-holding to a ridiculous degree, he has a silky voice, he holds the attention of a class full of antsy teenagers, he oozes danger, etc, etc. He is all the best and worst of his House, the epitome of Slytherin -- ambition, power, determination, self-interest. He is a wonderful literary creation, and a fascinating and intriguing character, and we all either love to hate him or hate to love him, or some combination of the two. However, I think the whole Snape is Sexy thing is turning on the wrong term. Fascinating, yes. Intriguing, yes. Compelling, oh my, yes. Mysterious, yes, yes, yes! A character we feel drawn to in some awful way, like a car crash, absolutely. But sexy? No, I think the word most suitable to describe our favorite slimy evil ratbastard git is not sexy but rather *seductive*. He gets under your skin, like a thorn or a chigger, and you can't help but scratch at it, because even though it hurts like crazy, it still feels so good, too. You get the feeling he could manipulate some poor innocent thing to her doom (or his, for that matter), and it wouldn't surprise you in the least, because you could see yourself falling under his sway, as well. So, no, Snape is not sexy. He is seductive. He could pull you in and pull you under and you wouldn't even think to put up a fight. He is, and may well always remain, one of my favorite characters of the Potterverse, and possibly of all my literary adventures so far. *** Tammy tammy at mauswerks.net From JessaDrow at aol.com Tue Apr 29 13:45:04 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 09:45:04 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dudley *spoilers* Message-ID: <6b.fd01f4d.2bdfdbe0@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56441 In a message dated 4/29/03 9:13:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, heidit at netbox.com writes: > Faith, et al - I'm an editor at The Leaky Cauldron (we of the December > fundraiser for the card) and we've seen all the rumors. There's one with > elipses between each word- it's a known fraud because a tiny snip of the > card was shown on the sotheby's site, and there's at least one "phrase" > without elipses in it. > > There's also a clever one which purports to list words from the book. Other > than the words made public by sotheby's, all the words on the card are > things like "a" and "the". > First off nice to meet you, I have been by your site a few times and it's awesome. Now I'm having a bit of a blonde moment which is odd, because I'm not blonde.. I've never actually seen card personally. But are you saying that the spoiler is false? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mbarclay at lee.edu Tue Apr 29 13:49:37 2003 From: mbarclay at lee.edu (Barclay, Maggie) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 08:49:37 -0500 Subject: Lily related to the Weasleys Message-ID: <8F497E280916D4119B0100A0C9EA53E7021D5A3B@leonardo.lee.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 56442 Lea wrote: If this is true, and I'll leave that point to others to argue, it certainly throws a wet blanket over the Harry/Ginny possibilities. Andrea wrote: Not necessarily. ;) I think the *closest* relationship that this suggests would be that the Weasley cousin was one of Lily's parents. So if Harry's grandparent was a second cousin to Molly, that would make Harry and Ginny fifth cousins. That's a pretty distant blood relationship, and even the most stringent consanguinity statutues allow for marriage of fourth cousins and above. Me: Sorry to nitpick here, but if I've understood the relationships you have mapped out, Harry and Ginny would be second cousins once removed. (I'm assuming that Molly and Harry's grandparent are first cousins once removed) Still distant enough for marriage in most areas, but squelchy enough for most people to avoid--especially if the relationship is known. MaggieB--whose claim to fame in her very large family is that she can actually understand those weird removed cousins rules [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From william.truderung at sympatico.ca Tue Apr 29 13:58:41 2003 From: william.truderung at sympatico.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 13:58:41 -0000 Subject: Is Snape unfair with House Points? (WAS Re: Teacher Ratings (Was: Why I hate Hag In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56443 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros" wrote: > I'd have taken ten.... > I know...one liner. Howler on the way... > > Mel Why? Snape asked a question of the class. Hermione raised her hand. Snape ignored her, and made a sneering comment to the class. Hermione answered the question. Snape insulted Hermione, and deducted 5 points for answering the question he had asked. And you think he should have deducted 10 points???? I really hope that you are not a teacher. Bill From diana at slashcity.com Tue Apr 29 13:39:54 2003 From: diana at slashcity.com (Diana Williams) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 09:39:54 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's POV was Snape is NOT Sexy References: <20030429105231.76529.qmail@web20703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0fab01c30e54$d273ec00$0a02a8c0@DianaPC> No: HPFGUIDX 56444 From: "L Finn" But I am puzzled at this Harry POV mentioned in this thread and others. Sure, the books are Harry centric and we follow Harry about, but it isn't him describing things. As something happens it is related to the reader, but not by Harry. It is athough he's carrying a video cam about and we get to see what is recorded by it. Me: Harry is the Point-of-View character in the story, and if you'll look back at the story, it is *not* told from the omniscient narrator POV. We only see the things that Harry sees, and we see them through Harry's eyes - more as if he is sketching out what he sees or writing about it in his diary rather than using a videocamera. We don't know what's happening to Hermione in the Polyjuice mix-up (i.e., feel her reactions, see her changing) until Harry sees the end result. We don't know what Ginny's up to until Harry finds her and Riddle tells him what's been going on. We *only* know what Harry knows, and we only know it the way Harry knows it. This includes his feelings/prejudices towards people - for all we know, Draco Malfoy could be a kind soul who loves animals and helps little old witches across streets, but *Harry* doesn't see that or know that so *we* don't see that or know that. So the descriptions of Snape are likewise influenced by the fact that we're seeing him through Harry's "sketches" of him. Diana Williams ---------------------------------- website at http://diana.slashcity.com List-Mom to Slash-Writers - www.yahoogroups.com/groups/slash-writers Webmaster for Ink Stained Fingers, a Harry Potter Slash archive http://inkstain.slashcity.net From heidit at netbox.com Tue Apr 29 14:00:16 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 10:00:16 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dudley *spoilers* Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56445 If by "spoiler" you mean the thing that says (iirc, without the page in front of me) broom... And Ron... And 38 chapters... among other things, no, that's real. Sotheby's released about a dozen words back in early December, which really are on the card. However, what I am saying is that there are "fake" reports of the card out there, including those I summarized before. And thanks for the compliments! Much appreciated! Heidi Tandy *Ask me about Nimbus - 2003* Http://www.hp2003.org -----Original Message----- From: JessaDrow at aol.com Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 09:45:04 To:HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Dudley *spoilers* Real-To: JessaDrow at aol.com In a message dated 4/29/03 9:13:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, heidit at netbox.com writes: > Faith, et al - I'm an editor at The Leaky Cauldron (we of the December > fundraiser for the card) and we've seen all the rumors. There's one with > elipses between each word- it's a known fraud because a tiny snip of the > card was shown on the sotheby's site, and there's at least one "phrase" > without elipses in it. > > There's also a clever one which purports to list words from the book. Other > than the words made public by sotheby's, all the words on the card are > things like "a" and "the". > First off nice to meet you, I have been by your site a few times and it's awesome. Now I'm having a bit of a blonde moment which is odd, because I'm not blonde.. I've never actually seen card personally. But are you saying that the spoiler is false? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From JessaDrow at aol.com Tue Apr 29 14:11:57 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 10:11:57 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dudley *spoilers* Message-ID: <166.1f8692c1.2bdfe22d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56446 In a message dated 4/29/03 10:08:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, heidit at netbox.com writes: > If by "spoiler" you mean the thing that says (iirc, without the page in > front of me) broom... And Ron... And 38 chapters... among other things, no, > that's real. Sotheby's released about a dozen words back in early December, > which really are on the card. > I was really hoping you were gonna say it was a fake, I'm terrified of Hermione, Ron or any of the Weasleys being killed. I'm a big Ron/Hermione fan obviously. ~Faith~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pegruppel at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 13:18:39 2003 From: pegruppel at yahoo.com (pegruppel) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 13:18:39 -0000 Subject: Snape. Woo-HOO! With All Due Apologies to Captain Cindy. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56447 Darrin wrote a whole series of comments to which I can only reply: Here! Here! (with a flat, midwestern American accent that does no justice to the British pronunciation). Snape is, as Darrin says, the most complicated character of the lot. His past is only seen from the point of view of Harry and his old school enemies. I don't believe we can make too many assumptions about the "real" Snape behind the mask. I certainly don't believe that his chambers are decorated in chintz and French antiques. But I suspect, with many others on the list, that at least *some* of his behavior is meant to convince the Slytherins that he's on their side. Other incidents, Hermione's teeth being one, the threat to poison Neville's toad Trevor, etc., etc., are beyond the pale. I would also point out that we don't know what Dumbledore had to say to him. There's no way that Dumbledore didn't know about the incident with Hermione, since she went to the hospital wing. Snape wouldn't have been reduced to snivelling (a la Pettigrew), but I bet he was read the riot act. At least, I hope so. And I, for one, wouldn't mess with an angry Dumbledore. I'm not defending any of the really brutal things he has done, but I do think that there's far, far more to Snape's story than we've been allowed to see. And isn't it interesting that he seems to provoke the most passion, on many fronts, from so many people? I think that's evidence of JKR's skill. Creating a fictional character that provokes such love/hate is a testament to her ability. Peg From morgan_d_yyh at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 14:04:02 2003 From: morgan_d_yyh at yahoo.com (Morgan D.) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 07:04:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Old member returning in anticipation of OotP In-Reply-To: <1051592430.11005.35164.m7@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030429140402.70210.qmail@web11008.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56448 Rainy said: > P.S. A friend of mine dropped an interesting though inconclusive > theory about Mrs. Figg. Ever notice how Rowling makes a point of > saying how her house smelled of cooked cabbage? What else have we > come across in the canon that has such a smell? > > Hmmmmm.... > > Polyjuice potion. > > I wonder if there is a connection here? Perhaps she is not an old > woman at all but something else entirely..... Me (Morgan): Not too long ago I was annoying the members of this group with my thoughts about Polyjuiced Arabella. If you're interested in the subject: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/53067 and subsequent messages down the thread. Morgan D. Hogwarts Letters - http://www.hogwartsletters.hpg.com.br __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From stix4141 at hotmail.com Tue Apr 29 14:15:01 2003 From: stix4141 at hotmail.com (stickbook41) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 14:15:01 -0000 Subject: Sexy Lucius Malfoy (was: Sexy Snape) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56449 I always took the position that Snape was the kind of character we love to hate--his near-cartoonish levels of vindictiveness are actually pretty humourous! But what about Lucius Malfoy? He's vindictive with a capital V. I never saw many fangirls swooning after him, certainly not as many as went after Draco. But maybe I'm sheltered. I was just curious: Where do we rate Lucius in terms of sexiness? Cheers! -stickbook who doesn't personally understand any of these leanings, to include SnapeFascination From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 15:40:48 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 08:40:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily related to the Weasleys In-Reply-To: <8F497E280916D4119B0100A0C9EA53E7021D5A3B@leonardo.lee.edu> Message-ID: <20030429154048.39137.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56450 --- Maggie wrote: > Sorry to nitpick here, but if I've understood the relationships you have > mapped out, Harry and Ginny would be second cousins once removed. (I'm > assuming that Molly and Harry's grandparent are first cousins once > removed) > Still distant enough for marriage in most areas, but squelchy enough for > most people to avoid--especially if the relationship is known. *laughs* I'm from the South, so I understand the removed cousin rules too, though they're rarely in use anymore in general and not in consanguinity laws at all. And no, they wouldn't be second cousins once removed if the accountant cousin was Harry's grandparent. LILY would be MOLLY's second cousin once removed (or third cousin, in general parlance). (For those who DON'T understand the remove rules, the child of your cousin is that cousin once removed. Their child would be second removed, etc.) Harry would be Molly's second cousin twice removed, or fourth cousins, making Harry and Ginny second cousins three times removed (or third cousins twice removed, that's where I always mess up on these. *g* Still fifth cousins, however you add.). Remember it wasn't *Ron's* second cousin was Lily. It was *Molly's* second cousin, and it would at the very least have to be one of Lily's parents, if not a further remove than that, since Lily was the surprise witch, not the accountant. Andrea, way too interested in convoluted cousinships ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From stbinch at actionsd.com Tue Apr 29 15:42:12 2003 From: stbinch at actionsd.com (Steve Binch) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 08:42:12 -0700 Subject: Mrs. Figg's house smells like cabbage (WAS: ...anticipation of OotP) References: <1051592430.11005.35164.m7@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001101c30e65$e7097bb0$0e01a8c0@ACTIONSTEEL.COM> No: HPFGUIDX 56451 >A friend of mine dropped an interesting though inconclusive >theory about Mrs. Figg. Ever notice how Rowling makes a point of >saying how her house smelled of cooked cabbage? What else have we >come across in the canon that has such a smell? >Hmmmmm.... >Polyjuice potion. >I wonder if there is a connection here? Perhaps she is not an old >woman at all but something else entirely..... Or what if "Mrs. Figg" turns out to not be Mrs. Figg at all, but is a Death Eater polyjuicing himself/herself as Mrs. Figg? Or what if thats what we are meant to think, but really she just likes to eat lots of cabbage? The world of Harry Potter is so schrouded with mystery, I never know what to believe. -Steve From severin_szaltis at yahoo.co.uk Tue Apr 29 16:21:20 2003 From: severin_szaltis at yahoo.co.uk (severin_szaltis) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 16:21:20 -0000 Subject: Harry's POV was Snape is NOT Sexy In-Reply-To: <0fab01c30e54$d273ec00$0a02a8c0@DianaPC> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56452 Diana Williams: Harry is the Point-of-View character in the story, and if you'll look back at the story, it is *not* told from the omniscient narrator POV. Me: I'm afraid not; it *is* an omniscient narrator (or ON). The fact that the narrator only chooses to tell us what Harry feels and thinks and not the other characters, is neither here nor there with regard to the omniscience of the narrator. What is happening is that the ON is choosing to tell us events from Harry's stand point. Although the distinction is a subtle one, this is *not* the same as telling the story in Harry's voice. The books are *not* a First Person Narrative, which would be the only case in which we could say that every description in the book was Harry's personal view and given in light of *his* prejudices and bias. The HP books are written in the third person and only when it says, "Harry thought..." (or similar) are we getting Harry's personal opinion. Otherwise we are listening to the ON. Diana Williams: We only see the things that Harry sees, and we see them through Harry's eyes - more as if he is sketching out what he sees or writing about it in his diary rather than using a videocamera. We don't know what's happening to Hermione in the Polyjuice mix-up (i.e., feel her reactions, see her changing) until Harry sees the end result. We don't know what Ginny's up to until Harry finds her and Riddle tells him what's been going on. We *only* know what Harry knows, and we only know it the way Harry knows it. Me: I agree that we only see the things that Harry sees, but that is because the ON chooses not to tell us what anybody else sees, not because every word is Harry's opinion, or is coloured by his bias. If as you suggest it was "as if he is sketching out what he sees or writing about it in his diary" then the books would be a First Person Narrative - they are not, it is the ON giving us details, not Harry himself. It is the ON who describes Snape, not Harry and if it were Harry's bias she was describing then the ON would have to say something along the lines of "...this is how Snape appeared to Harry." Diana Williams: This includes his feelings/prejudices towards people - for all we know, Draco Malfoy could be a kind soul who loves animals and helps little old witches across streets, but *Harry* doesn't see that or know that so *we* don't see that or know that. So the descriptions of Snape are likewise influenced by the fact that we're seeing him through Harry's "sketches" of him. Me: The ON is choosing not to reveal things to the reader any quicker than they are revealed to Harry true, but this 'looking over Harry's shoulder' approach to telling the story should not be confused with First Person Narrative. Telling a story from a particular characters stand point or POV does not take away the omniscience of the narrator, nor does it mean that every word written is specifically only Harry's view - unless we are told otherwise it is the ON *speaking* SS ~;o) From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Tue Apr 29 16:11:36 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 17:11:36 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: More on Snape & a couple of questions Message-ID: <3EAEA438.000005.82221@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 56453 First the questions because they're short. I was looking through the books for some stuff to back up what I was about to argue and found a couple of things that struck me as odd. Neville - when the new Gryffindors are discussing their origins Neville sayd "Well, my gran brought me up and she's a witch but the family thought I was all Muggle for ages" But a non-magical person born into a wizarding family isn't a muggle, they're a squib - like Filch. So why does he say muggle? We know his parents were tortured by Death Eaters and are in St Mungos so it's not like his mother was a squib who married a muggle. I'm confused. Hogwarts Express - In CoS when Snape is reading out the sightings of Ron and Harry in the Flying Fod Anglia he reads one out from Norfolk, which strikes me as an odd place for the car to be flying over since it's following the train. Lincolnshire I could understand but Norfol is a little too far east for a train which is going north from London. Anyway now back to my regularly scheduled message :) This occured to me while we were debating Snape. Everything we see is from the pov of Harry Potter, who's not exactly an unbiased witness. The impression we get from him is that Snape is a universally disliked, unpleasent loner with no friends - but I was wondering about his relationships with the rest of the staff. I'm not including his relationship with the DADA teacher of the week here because they've all been a) evil, b) useless or c) the source of great childhood trauma for Severus (personally i don't think he's after the job he just wants someone who's going to do a decent job of it, DADA is after all quite important with Voldemort coming back and everything). Unfortunately it s difficult to decide what he's like with the rest of the staff when they're not being observed by the students because when they're not being observed by the students Harry's not there to tell us. However I have found two thing that make me think he gets on well with the rest of the staff, especially Minerva and maybe the other House Heads too. Firstly (and these are in the opposite of chronological order) the neat way that he, Minerva, Flitwick and Sprout get rid of Lockhart in CoS. Here follows a lengthy quote from the momen Lockhart enters the staff meeting (p 217-8 in my book) "Just the man," [Snape] said. "The very man. A girl has been snatched by the monster, Lockhart. Taken into the Chamber of Secrets itself. Your moment has come at last." ... "That's right, Gilderoy," chipped in Professor Sprout. "Weren't you saying just last night that you've known all along where the entrance to the Chamber of Secrets is?" ... "Yes, didn't you tell me you were sure you knew what was inside it?" piped up Professor Flitwick. ... "I certianly remember you saying you were sorry you hadn't had a crack at the monster before Hagrid was arrested," said Snape. "Didn't you say the whole affair had been bungled, and that you should have been given a free rein from the first?" ... "We'll leave it to you then Gilderoy," said Professor McGonagall. "Tonight will be an excellent time to do it. We'll make sure everyone's out of your way. You'll be able to tackle the monster all by yourself. A free rein at last." OK I edited out Lockhart's blustering because it's irrelevent, amusing but irrelevent. Now I'm not saying that the fact they've all seen through him is a sign that they're friends - although I wouldn't mind betting he's the topic of conversation whenever he's not around. But there's no way that they ve had time to discuss how to get rid of him in advance. So I think the fact that the other three catch onto Snape's aim and chip in is a sign that they re at least amiable colleagues. They do work very well together here in getting Lockhart to do exactly what they want ie go away. Secondly, a quote from Minerva in PS. It's from the scene where she is telling Wood that she's found him a seeker."Flattened in that last match by Slytherin, I couldn't look Severus Snape in the face for weeks." We don't get anything else on the subject of Severus/Minerva's rivalry (hmm, that looks unfortunate - I'm not shipping) and I think we can assume tnhat Harry writes it off as simply an extension of the Slytherin/Gryffindor division amongst the students. But I think it sounds far more like Severus and Minerva are both friends and since she at least appears to be a quidditch fan (I can't see any evidence either way about Severus' feelings on the game) it would only be natural that who beats whom is important. I think it s a friendly rivalry ratehr than anything else. What do you guys think? Severus and Minerva - good friends or not. K From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Tue Apr 29 17:24:06 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 13:24:06 -0400 Subject: Neville (was: More on Snape & a couple of questions) References: <3EAEA438.000005.82221@monica> Message-ID: <029f01c30e74$23b18ea0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56454 Kathryn Cawte wrote: > Neville - when the new Gryffindors are discussing their origins Neville sayd > "Well, my gran brought me up and she's a witch but the family thought I was > all Muggle for ages" But a non-magical person born into a wizarding family > isn't a muggle, they're a squib - like Filch. So why does he say muggle? We > know his parents were tortured by Death Eaters and are in St Mungos so it's > not like his mother was a squib who married a muggle. I'm confused. Well at that point in the series, we haven't been introduced to what a "squib" is...and it probably would've taken away from the scene to have to stop and explain it. So JKR used a term that we already knew and has 'basically' the same meaning - a non-magic person. I can't imagine there being any deeper meaning than that. ~Katy~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 17:40:23 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 10:40:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] More on Snape & a couple of questions In-Reply-To: <3EAEA438.000005.82221@monica> Message-ID: <20030429174023.86816.qmail@web21001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56455 Kathryn wrote: First the questions because they're short. I was looking through the books for some stuff to back up what I was about to argue and found a couple of things that struck me as odd. Neville - when the new Gryffindors are discussing their origins Neville sayd "Well, my gran brought me up and she's a witch but the family thought I was all Muggle for ages" But a non-magical person born into a wizarding family isn't a muggle, they're a squib - like Filch. So why does he say muggle? We know his parents were tortured by Death Eaters and are in St Mungos so it's not like his mother was a squib who married a muggle. I'm confused. Me: I don't have a problem with that since a squib is a person without magical abilities and a muggle is a "non-magical" person then it is reasonable to define a Squib as being a muggle born to a magical family. You simply call them squibs instead of muggles. Not exactly accurate of course but the terms are very closely related and since the purpose of language is to convey meaning, using the term muggle for squib certainly gets the point across. Everybody understood exactly what he meant. Squib would of course been the more technically correct term but it shouldn't be a shock for somebody to use "muggle" in that context. Kathryn: Hogwarts Express - In CoS when Snape is reading out the sightings of Ron and Harry in the Flying Fod Anglia he reads one out from Norfolk, which strikes me as an odd place for the car to be flying over since it's following the train. Lincolnshire I could understand but Norfol is a little too far east for a train which is going north from London. Me: HAHA. I'm from Canada but I looked that up on the map and sure enough that is an odd route. I guess all one can say is, you never know with those crazy magical trains! Kathryn: What do you guys think? Severus and Minerva - good friends or not. Me: That's a very good question. I've seen some tenson between Snape and Dumbledore and I believe McDougall over Potter but overall nothing to directly indicate that they are under anything but friendly terms with each other. Heck, in the first book even Hagrid took pains to defend Snape from the kid's accusations. But on the other hand, he is such a cold and distant person that it is hard to imagine him being good friends with Minerva or anybody. And in the first book which I wish I had in front of me, in his final confrontation didn't our "evil professor of the week" respond to Harry's surprise that the bad guy wasn't Snape by mentioning how Snape did seem the sort and does manage to make himself unpopular? (wish I had the exact quote in front of me) He didn't elaborate if 'unpopular' pertained to the students, other staff or both. But there is some indirect evidence Snape's relations are not overall totally buddy-buddy at least. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From selene at earthlink.net Tue Apr 29 14:28:26 2003 From: selene at earthlink.net (Susan Fox-Davis) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 07:28:26 -0700 Subject: On Power Message-ID: <3EAE8C0A.9393180B@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 56456 This is a quote that came to me from a "Positive Quote of the Day" mailing. "Power is the ability to do good things for others. -- Brooke Astor" As it applies to this list, this is the kind of ethics they need to emphasize to Slytherin students. Why isn't "Magical Ethics" seen in the Hogwarts curriculum? Susan Fox-Davis selene at earthlink.net From carmenharms at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 17:08:08 2003 From: carmenharms at yahoo.com (snazzzybird) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 17:08:08 -0000 Subject: Snape is NOT Sexy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56457 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros" wrote: > > I know I'm also not alone in thinking that so far, the all-time > sexiest, snapiest line in the series is in PoA in the Shrieking > Shack..."Give me one reason," he whispered. "Give me a reason to do > it and I swear I will." > The sense of restrained power there is incredible--and if we STILL > don't get the picture, JK allows us a few tempting sparks out of the > end of his wand. > Yes, Mel, exactly! I'm a fellow Snapefan, and I find Snape very sexy indeed. Make no mistake, power is an aphrodisiac, and Snape exudes power at all times. Whenever I read that "Give me one reason" line, it reminds me of Clint Eastwood as Dirty Harry, pointing that cannon of a .44 Magnum at the perp he just apprehended, and whispering "Go ahead... make my day." *fans self* My... it's getting hot in here! --snazzzybird, a Slytherin through and through ;-) From emeleel at juno.com Tue Apr 29 15:30:17 2003 From: emeleel at juno.com (Melanie L Ellis) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 10:30:17 -0500 Subject: Is there anything in the HP world that bothers you? Message-ID: <20030429.103018.-87956543.0.emeleel@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56458 The one thing that bothers me in the HP world is JKR's descriptions of the Mandrakes in CoS. When they pull up the "seedlings" they are described as ugly babies. Not creatures, not monsters, just "babies", albeit ugly ones with green mottled skin. From then on throughout the book, descriptions of them growing up sound just like children growing up (acne, getting into each other's pots to fool around, etc.) And then, they are CUT UP AND STEWED! I won't go so far as to agree with thecuttingedge.org and try to say that JKR is trying to inure readers to the idea that abortion and/or genocide are okay, but I have to admit the overly realistic, human-sounding descriptions of the mandrakes give me pause. When reading the books with my kids, I actually changed the wording a bit here and there, and was quite relieved that the movie made them out to be more like monsters and glossed over the growing-up descriptions, even though Hagrid did bring out the line about when their acne had cleared up, they could be chopped up and stewed to make the potion. My kids are only 7 and 4 right now - if either one of them decide to re-read the books on their own when they get older, I will have to sit down and discuss it with them before they read CoS. I just don't understand why JKR had to make the Mandrakes seem so *human* in the story! Melanie Ellis Alabama Homeschool Message Board http://pub77.ezboard.com/balabamahomeschoolmessageboard ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From dicentra at xmission.com Tue Apr 29 18:22:05 2003 From: dicentra at xmission.com (Dicentra spectabilis) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 18:22:05 -0000 Subject: Is there anything in the HP world that bothers you? In-Reply-To: <20030429.103018.-87956543.0.emeleel@juno.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56459 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Melanie L Ellis wrote: > > I just don't understand why JKR had to make the Mandrakes seem so > *human* in the story! Here's one reason: mandrake (m?n?dr?k?) noun 1. a. A southern European plant (Mandragora officinarum) having internal greenish-yellow flowers and a branched root. This plant was once believed to have internal magical powers because its root resembles the human body. The mandrake already has "human" qualities in folklore, so JKR is simply picking up on that and having fun with it. --Dicentra, who never read CoS to youngsters, so it never occurred to her that it might be disturbing From katie.jarvis1 at ntlworld.com Tue Apr 29 15:57:09 2003 From: katie.jarvis1 at ntlworld.com (addictedtobass2003) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 15:57:09 -0000 Subject: Death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56460 In my opinion, although Hagrid and Dumbledore's days are numbered, they are still in double figures :) I believe in book 6, Hagrid will sacrifice his life for Dumbledore, but Dumbledore will die in book 7. JKR said it would be one of Harry's fans who dies in OoP. The main ones are: Colin Creevey - already been petrified, so I don't believe it will be him Ginny Weasley - Tom Riddle almost killed her, so I don't think it will be her Dobby - I don't think Dobby is important enough a character. Don't get me wrong, he is amazingly cute, and definitely one of Harry's fans, but I can't see it happening, personally. Hagrid - Robbie Coltrane said: 'I know about what happens to Hagrid, which is something author JK Rowling told me from the beginning to help me prepare me for the part,' he said. 'There is a death in the fifth book of a central character. But I can't say more than that.' This makes me believe more that Hagrid's days are numbered. Also, when asked if he was signed up for all 7 movies, he quoted "sort of". This could of course mean that Hagrid lives but they get a new actor, but I don't think so. I think this means that he is signed up for 6 movies, so I think Hagrid will die in the 6th book, no earlier. Molly Weasley - Mrs Weasley gets my vote. It may sound crazy but she is a fan of Harry's and has become kind of a mother figure to him, so her death would affect him greatly. JKR said somewhere that one event that happened in her life has an influence on the plot - her mother's death. This could be a parallel to Ginny growing up without a mother, and she would effectively be writing how she felt about her own mother's death, thus it being "horrible to write". Maybe Harry would comfort Ginny ;) Come 21st June, if JKR proves me wrong, fair enough, she's the writer. I don't want any of them to die :'( except Voldemort and all of his death eaters, basically all the EVIL PEOPLE! addictedtobass2003 Katie (there are some interesting theories on www.mugglenet.com if anyone hasn't yet visited it and is interested. I will also mention that the page contains spoilers for the impending OoP release, including the new Gryffindor Keeper, but if you don't want to know yet, don't worry, you have to highlight it to read it.) From william.truderung at sympatico.ca Tue Apr 29 18:25:23 2003 From: william.truderung at sympatico.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 18:25:23 -0000 Subject: Is there anything in the HP world that bothers you? In-Reply-To: <20030429.103018.-87956543.0.emeleel@juno.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56461 The mandrakes did bother me a bit, although it did fit in with the wizarding world's attitude toward non-human, presumably intelligent, beings - house-elfs, hippogriffs, etc. But the thing that really bothered me was the entire 'justice system', for lack of a better word. First of all, the simple *existence* of a place like Azkaban. The Muggle world has standards on the treatment of prisoners, and Azkaban, and the Dementors, grossly violates them. When somebody is sent to Azkaban, they are *expected* to be driven insane within several months. Not to mention that, judging by Black's appearance when he escapes, their physical care is abysmal as well. Second, the ease that people are thrown into Azkaban, without trial. Sirius Black is one case, and Rubeus Hagrid is another. This is especially horrendous since, with the use of veritasirum, pensieves, 'prior incantato', and presumably other magical evidence- gathering methods, it should be fairly quick and easy for a *proper* trial to uncover the truth. There is NO reason why anybody facing a trip to Azbaban should be denied a trial. This fits in with the larger picture, actually. Look at how Hagrid was expelled from Hogwarts as a student, although any proper investigation would have made it clear that his spider could not have killed Myrtle. (no fang puncture wounds, no venom in her blood system, etc.) There are many other things which bother me about the wizarding world as described, but this issue is probably the worst. Bill From Neotoma73 at aol.com Tue Apr 29 18:26:55 2003 From: Neotoma73 at aol.com (Neotoma73 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 14:26:55 EDT Subject: Harry's POV was Snape is NOT Sexy Message-ID: <30.3dc0b2e1.2be01def@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56462 In a message dated 4/29/03 1:13:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "severin_szaltis" writes: > Me: > The ON is choosing not to reveal things to the reader any quicker > than they are revealed to Harry true, but this 'looking over Harry's > shoulder' approach to telling the story should not be confused with > First Person Narrative. Telling a story from a particular characters > stand point or POV does not take away the omniscience of the > narrator, nor does it mean that every word written is specifically > only Harry's view - unless we are told otherwise it is the ON > *speaking* > > This POV you're describing is *NOT* third person, omniscient narrator -- that was only used in the very first book, in the scenes where Harry is an infant. The rest of the books are written in third person, *limited* narrator, meaning we are limited to what one character, Harry in this case, sees and understands. It's not 1st person POV, but it's not omniscient either. AnneL [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From morgan_d_yyh at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 18:49:33 2003 From: morgan_d_yyh at yahoo.com (Morgan D.) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 11:49:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's POV (was Snape is NOT Sexy) In-Reply-To: <1051636301.8037.89888.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030429184933.12697.qmail@web11006.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56463 Diana Williams said: > Harry is the Point-of-View character in the story, and if you'll look > back at the story, it is *not* told from the omniscient narrator POV. And severin_szaltis corrected: > I'm afraid not; it *is* an omniscient narrator (or ON). The fact that > the narrator only chooses to tell us what Harry feels and thinks and > not the other characters, is neither here nor there with regard to > the omniscience of the narrator. And I (Morgan) suggest: I'm afraid this is mostly a disagreement on technical terms. Some people use "pov" (point of view) and "narrator" as synonyms. I don't know what are the correct academic terms (especially not in English grammar). I see a distinction in the way the terms are usually used in fanfiction and literature discussions: narrator being, strictly speaking, the voice that tells the story, and "pov" being a possible limitation to the narrator's perspective and knowledge. The HP books have a third person narrative. It's never "I did this, I thought that", but "Harry did this, Harry thought that". On the other hand, the so-called "pov" is *mostly* Harry's, because most of the time the narrator is "perched" on Harry's shoulder, showing us the world the way he sees it, and secretly telling us his thoughts and feelings -- and, what's most important, not revealing to us what Harry doesn't know or how other characters think or feel (apart from Harry's guessing). It's very common for an author to pick a character as "pov" while keeping a third person narrative. (I wonder if this can really be called, in terms of academic definitions, an omniscient narrator, since this sort of narrator is limited to tell and explain only the things seen and understood by the character(s) whose "pov" is guiding the narration. But I'll leave that discussion to the experts in the area.) I absolutely love the HP books (or I wouldn't be here, would I?), but I would not list JKR as one of the most talented writers in the world. We all have stuff we are nitpickers about, and this is mine: narration consistency. It *really* bugs me when I find a book/movie/fanfic/whatever that has the narration changing patterns all of a sudden for no apparent reason besides the author's convenience. It bugs me just as much as FLINTs. The beginning of PS/SS, the narrator shows us the story through Vernon's "pov" (his going to work, seeing the strange people in the streets, coming home, the TV news), then seems to jump to nobody's "pov" (Dumbledore and Minerva meeting near Privet Drive 4), before finally settling on Harry's shoulder. Okay, okay, it's the prologue, let's cut the author some slack, prologues often display a different kind of narration from the rest of the story. The same argument can be used to defend the first chapter of GoF, which show us the "pov" of Frank Bryce (in a peculiar "Frank who? Oh hi, Frank, nice to meet you. Uhn, bye, Frank, rest in peace" kind of way). Harry dreams about Frank's death. But that chapter gives us much more information that Harry could learn from his dream (as the narrator, back on Harry's shoulder, confirms in the beginning of the following chapter). So that can't be considered Harry's "pov", even if Harry knows a little about what happened. But hey, it's the prologue again, give JKR a break, Morgan! Okay, okay. I could argue that it's not *exactly* a prologue since we had three books before that establishing Harry as "pov", but okay, fine, forget about that. But in PS/SS chapter 13, during the Quidditch match against Hufflepuff, the "pov" stays on the ground while Harry climbs on his Nimbus 2000 and chases the Snitch. It follows Ron and Hermione to the stands: "Little did Harry know that Ron and Hermione had been secretly practising the Leg-Locker Curse." Then the "pov" leaps back to Harry as he talks to Wood: "Harry's heart did a somersault. (...) Harry could have laughed out loud with relief." Then the narrator lands on Ron's shoulders and stays there during his little fight with Malfoy (of which Harry certainly couldn't have been aware, at least not with that much detailing), and returning to Harry when the game is over. (PS/SS, ch 13, UK paperback) I understand this might not matter at all for most readers, but it always strikes me as a rather inelegant option for the author solve the problem of "oops, I want to show this, but my pov-character isn't around to see it". If JKR used other character's "pov" often, I wouldn't mind. There are (good) books whose narration is based on several characters' "pov", changing from scene to scene. And there are other books (there might be some that are good, I just can't think of any right now) that have *truly* omniscient narrators, holding nobody's "pov" through and through. What bugs me is when you have a narration pattern clearly established, and then breaks up with it for a quick moment, as if expecting no one will notice. For me, that's being inconsistent, not with the story, but with the writing itself. Just my humble, if nitpicking opinion. Let the one among you who is without sin of nitpicking be the first to throw a stone. *hides behind a tree and waits for replies* Morgan D. Hogwarts Letters - http://www.hogwartsletters.hpg.com.br __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 19:02:54 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 19:02:54 -0000 Subject: Neville (was: More on Snape & a couple of questions) In-Reply-To: <029f01c30e74$23b18ea0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56464 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Katy Cartee" wrote: > Kathryn Cawte wrote: > >> > Neville - when the new Gryffindors are discussing their origins Neville said "Well, my gran brought me up and she's a witch but the family thought I was all Muggle for ages" But a non-magical person born into a wizarding family isn't a muggle, they're a squib - like Filch. So why does he say muggle? .... <<< > > Well at that point in the series, we haven't been introduced to what a "squib" is... edited... > > ~Katy~ bboy_mn: I think 'Squib' is not a very polite term, so I discussing his grandmother and himself, he would not be likely to use the term Squib. Just a thought. bboy_mn From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Tue Apr 29 19:23:07 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 15:23:07 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Neville (was: More on Snape & a couple of questions) References: Message-ID: <031e01c30e84$c3dcb840$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56465 bboy_mn wrote: > I think 'Squib' is not a very polite term, so I discussing his > grandmother and himself, he would not be likely to use the term Squib. He wasn't talking about his grandmother being a squib. He already said that she was a witch. And calling himself (a wizard) a Muggle was pretty harsh in and of itself. So saying Squib instead of Muggle would have been "downing" himself the same amount in my mind. ~Katy~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From draco382 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 19:22:43 2003 From: draco382 at yahoo.com (draco382) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 19:22:43 -0000 Subject: Are the teachers friends? (WAS: Re: More on Snape & a couple of questions) In-Reply-To: <20030429174023.86816.qmail@web21001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56466 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Becky Walkden < runningbecky2002 at y...> wrote: > But on the other hand, he is such a cold and distant person that it is hard to imagine him being good friends with Minerva or anybody. And in the first book which I wish I had in front of me, in his final confrontation didn't our "evil professor of the week" respond to Harry's surprise that the bad guy wasn't Snape by mentioning how Snape did seem the sort and does manage to make himself unpopular? (wish I had the exact quote in front of me) He didn't elaborate if 'unpopular' pertained to the students,other staff or both. But there is some indirect evidence Snape's relations are not overall totally buddy-buddy at least. Huggs Now Me: The Quidditch rivalry between Minerva and Snape has come up a few times I think. I've always seen it as "friendly" rivalry. For example...my take on a little convo in the staff room: Snape: Well, Minerva...I do believe Slytherin and Griffindor will be playing against each other in the semi-finals. Being head of Griffindor, i'm sure you'd be "brave" enough for a little wager? Minerva: Severus, nothing would make me happier than to see Malfoy and the rest of the Slytherin team flattened. And if a little wager is what you want, i'd be happy to comply. In fact, i was about to suggest one myself. *faces Snape and looks him in the eye* Snape: *thin lips curn in an evil smile* Very well. Slytherin beats Griffindor by a 50 point margin you get my seat in the Great Hall for the rest...of...the...year. Meaning that you have to sit next to the charming Professor Trelawny for a good 4 months. Call it a little opportunity to make friends. Minerva: *shudders* And if Griffindor beats Slytherin by a 50 point margin, you wash your hair. Okay, well maybe not exactly like that, but I certainly do feel there is a great deal of trust and commradery between the main professors (Dumbledore, McGonnagal, Snape, Sprout, Flitwick). Specifically Minerva and Snape, who Dumbledore seems to trust implictley. My main example of this would be at the end of GOF, when Dumbledore asks them to accompany him, guard Crouch Jr, etc. I guess i'm just one of those people who (perhaps foolishly) do think Snape is on the good side, and isn't going to make any big changes anytime soon. But yes, he is still a greasy slimeball :-) my two cents, draco382 From grace701 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 19:28:47 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (Greicy de los Santos) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 12:28:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sexy Lucius Malfoy (was: Sexy Snape) In-Reply-To: <1051636301.8037.89888.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030429192847.16291.qmail@web14511.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56467 Actually, I never thought about any of the characters sexiness until I came here. I knew that Sirius, Lupin (especially) and Lucius were good looking men, but Lucius even more so from watching the movie. ;) So here is my top Five of the Men of HP Universe: 5. Bill 4. James 3. Charlie 2. Sirius (cleaned up) 1. Lupin I was actually going to make a list of ALL the men in Harry Potter, but decided to keep it short. ;) Greicy --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From diana at slashcity.com Tue Apr 29 18:33:36 2003 From: diana at slashcity.com (Diana Williams) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 14:33:36 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's POV was Snape is NOT Sexy References: Message-ID: <107201c30e7d$db25bc10$0a02a8c0@DianaPC> No: HPFGUIDX 56468 From: "severin_szaltis" > > Me: > I'm afraid not; it *is* an omniscient narrator (or ON). The fact that > the narrator only chooses to tell us what Harry feels and thinks and > not the other characters, is neither here nor there with regard to > the omniscience of the narrator. Nope, sorry, you've got this wrong. An Omniscient Narrator (Also called Third Person Omniscient) tells everything that is going on, regardless of the person's POV. It's not done very much nowadays, but there are several classics that use this technique. (Example: "Dear Reader, you might suppose that Harry's curiosity would be his downfall, but this was not the case for at that moment Hermione was racing to his rescue.") The Harry Potter stories are Third Person limited omniscient, which means they are told in the Third Person (he as opposed to I) and from one or more person's point of view. In this case - Harry's. We don't know any more than Harry does. If it was a "videocamera" kind of POV, it would be Third Person Objective, in which case we would only see what is going on externally, as if we were watching the movie. We would not know Harry's thoughts and feelings on anything - we would have to guess them based on the actions he took and the words he said. For a really good presentation on POV and types, go here: http://la.gulfcoast.edu/eng2111dl/Presentations/pov-lit_files/frame.htm Diana Williams ---------------------------------- website at http://diana.slashcity.com List-Mom to Slash-Writers - www.yahoogroups.com/groups/slash-writers Webmaster for Ink Stained Fingers, a Harry Potter Slash archive http://inkstain.slashcity.net From severin_szaltis at yahoo.co.uk Tue Apr 29 18:23:36 2003 From: severin_szaltis at yahoo.co.uk (severin_szaltis) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 18:23:36 -0000 Subject: Neville (was: More on Snape & a couple of questions) In-Reply-To: <029f01c30e74$23b18ea0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56469 Kathryn Cawte wrote: > Neville - when the new Gryffindors are discussing their origins Neville sayd > "Well, my gran brought me up and she's a witch but the family thought I was > all Muggle for ages" But a non-magical person born into a wizarding family > isn't a muggle, they're a squib - like Filch. So why does he say muggle? We > know his parents were tortured by Death Eaters and are in St Mungos so it's > not like his mother was a squib who married a muggle. I'm confused. Katy: Well at that point in the series, we haven't been introduced to what a "squib" is...and it probably would've taken away from the scene to have to stop and explain it. So JKR used a term that we already knew and has 'basically' the same meaning - a non-magic person. I can't imagine there being any deeper meaning than that. Personally I think either (a) JKR didn't think of the term until book two, (b) it was an error not picked up by the editor or (c) 'squib' is such an embarrassing/shamful or derogatory term that Neville preferred not to us it in relation to himself. Though I think that (a) is most likely, I like to believe (c); 'squib' and it's associations/connotations are seen as more humiliating than 'muggle' ones and that Neville was using the term 'muggle' euphemistically - bless him and his errant toad. SS ~;o) From ivanova at idcnet.com Tue Apr 29 17:52:15 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 12:52:15 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape favors Slytherin? References: Message-ID: <002601c30e78$12c439e0$87ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 56470 I have seen a lot of discussion about how Snape favors his own house. I haven't been on here long enough yet to know about what kinds of discussions have taken place on here, but I have been on quite a few websites that have gone on about how Snape favors Draco in particular. There is reason to support this, and quite a bit of support from the books as well. However, I just saw a post that argued that Snape doesn't really favor Slytherin at all, and pointed out how we have never seen Snape give or take away points to them. All we have seen is Snape take away points from Gryffindor (unknown how often he does with the other two houses, although it can be safe to assume they lose points from him as well). But does he really favor Slytherin and Draco? Point one: the aforementioned point giving. We have never heard Snape give as much as one point to Draco or any other member of Slytherin. If he truly favored his own house, don't you think he'd find absurd reasons to award them points? He is quite good at coming up with reasons to take points away from Gryffindor, some reasonable, and some approaching the absurd (for being a know-it-all). The other thing I have noticed is who always gets top marks in his class. If he truly favored his own students above all others, Draco Malfoy would be the top student in Potions. Instead, who is that person? None other than Hermione Granger. Granted, in PoA Harry thinks that Snape is scribbling down a zero when his potion doesn't turn out right for his final, but we never find out for sure. I can see Snape making it look that way to torture Harry, but it seems that when it comes to final grades, Snape is actually quite fair. Hermione gets top marks like we all know she should, Draco gets somewhere below that, and Harry does not flunk the class. Harry probably did get some points for his potion, depending on what parts he did correctly and just where exactly in the process he screwed up. Plus we don't know if the classwork they do throughout the year gets added in with their final exam. All those essays he assigns has to count for something. In short, Snape is hard on his students, sometimes downright mean and unnecessarily cruel, he seems to delight in taking away points from all houses but his own and rewarding points to no one, but when it comes down to grades, I have never heard of a Gryffindor complaining that Snape gave them a grade they did not deserve. As for Harry, he does believe Dumbledore interceded in the case of his grade, but we will never know for sure if that is the case or if Harry had done well enough on his other work to carry him through, or even well enough on that one botched potion. Either way, he seemed to think his grade was fair enough, whether or not Dumbledore had to talk to Snape about it first. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From severin_szaltis at yahoo.co.uk Tue Apr 29 19:14:02 2003 From: severin_szaltis at yahoo.co.uk (severin_szaltis) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 19:14:02 -0000 Subject: Harry's POV was Snape is NOT Sexy In-Reply-To: <30.3dc0b2e1.2be01def@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56471 > This POV you're describing is *NOT* third person, omniscient narrator -- that > was only used in the very first book, in the scenes where Harry is an infant. > > The rest of the books are written in third person, *limited* narrator, > meaning we are limited to what one character, Harry in this case, sees and > understands. > > It's not 1st person POV, but it's not omniscient either. > > AnneL Thank you! That is of course quite correct, it is 'limited narrator,' I really shouldn't put my emails together quickly in my breaks even if the day is a boring one... SS ~;o) From abigailnus at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 19:31:47 2003 From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 19:31:47 -0000 Subject: Harry's POV was Snape is NOT Sexy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56472 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severin_szaltis" wrote: > Diana Williams: > Harry is the Point-of-View character in the story, and if you'll look > back > at the story, it is *not* told from the omniscient narrator POV. > > > Me: > I'm afraid not; it *is* an omniscient narrator (or ON). The fact that > the narrator only chooses to tell us what Harry feels and thinks and > not the other characters, is neither here nor there with regard to > the omniscience of the narrator. > > > What is happening is that the ON is choosing to tell us events from > Harry's stand point. Although the distinction is a subtle one, this > is *not* the same as telling the story in Harry's voice. The books > are *not* a First Person Narrative, which would be the only case in > which we could say that every description in the book was Harry's > personal view and given in light of *his* prejudices and bias. The > HP books are written in the third person and only when it > says, "Harry thought..." (or similar) are we getting Harry's personal > opinion. Otherwise we are listening to the ON. No one suggested that the books were a first person narrative, which is certainly not the only kind of narrative that allows us to see the world through a particular person's eyes. Harry Potter is written in Third Person Restricted, which means that while the narrative is indeed written in the third person, it tells us only what a particular person - Harry - is seeing or feeling. This is in contrast to a Third Person Omniscient narrative, which can indeed give us an "objective" view of the world - such a narrator will occasionaly step out of his characters' heads and tell us an ulitmate truth about them, or switch from one character's perception to another's. Obviously, an omniscient narrator can still choose to conceal facts from the readers, but this is not a qualification for omniscience - the narrator knows everything, but we only know what the narrator chooses to tell us. For the most part, this is not what happens in the Harry Potter books. There are two scenes in PS in which the narrative moves away from Harry - the first chapter and Hermione's rescue of Harry during the first Quidditch match. The first chapter of GoF might also count as such a divergence, becuase even though Harry witnesses it, the readers are told facts that Harry has no way of knowing, such as the history of the Riddle House and Frank Bryce's name and past, and in fact Harry never learns most of these facts (note that during the graveyard scene, when Frank's shadow steps out of Voldemort's wand, he is described as 'an old man'. Harry doesn't know his name, which means that the narrative doesn't either). But excluding these scenes, the readers know only what Harry knows, and we learn it as he does. The narrative constantly informs us of Harry's emotional state, whereas all other characters are only as emotionally transparent to us as they are to Harry (which is to say, not much, as Harry is a rather typical teenager in that respect). A good example of how the books are indeed told from Harry's POV is looking at Harry's misconceptions. Look at Snape, as long as we're talking about him. Harry detests him, with some justification, and has never been able to shake the conviction that Snape is dangerous. And yet, whenever we see Snape interacting with people while unaware that Harry is watching him - his conversations with Moody and Karkaroff in GoF, for example - his venom level goes down. And then there's Neville, whom Harry constantly describes as being magically weak, 'nearly a squib'. It's been pointed out several times on the group that Neville, in fact, displays a great deal of magical strengh, but almost no ability to control it. Harry doesn't notice these things, and neither do most readers on a first reading, because the fact that the narrative is from Harry's POV skews our perceptions. Coming back to Snape, and the question of whether his appearance is in fact as odious as Harry perceives it to be. It may be true that Harry's dislike of Snape is coloring his perception, and I would guess that this might have started happening soon after the two met, but Harry's unpleasant descriptions of Snape begin before Snape makes his dislike clear. When Harry first sees Snape at Hogwarts, and during the first Potions lesson, he has no preconceptions and no bias against Snape, and yet he still describes him as physically unappealing. Stickbook wrote: >>But what about Lucius Malfoy? He's vindictive with a capital V. I never saw many fangirls swooning after him, certainly not as many as went after Draco. But maybe I'm sheltered. I was just curious: Where do we rate Lucius in terms of sexiness?>> Actually, I think there's a rather large Sexy!Lucius contingent, although I wouldn't swear that this wasn't due to Jason Isaacs's performance in the movie (not that I get the attraction. Alan Rickman is yummy, but Isaacs didn't impress me). I suspect we're looking at different qualities of sexiness. Lucius is sexy because he's a bad boy, and very good at it. Snape is sexy because he's mysterious and tortured. Abigail From melclaros at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 19:54:14 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 19:54:14 -0000 Subject: Teachers and fairness (WAS Is Snape unfair with House Points? ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56473 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mongo62aa" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros" > wrote: > > > I'd have taken ten.... > > > Why? > > Snape asked a question of the class. > > Hermione raised her hand. > > Snape ignored her, and made a sneering comment to the class. > > Hermione answered the question. > > Snape insulted Hermione, and deducted 5 points for answering the > question he had asked. > > And you think he should have deducted 10 points???? > > I really hope that you are not a teacher. > Now me: Not at the moment. But I honestly wish I had a dollar for every time I have had to say to the same student something along the lines of "Yes, I'm sure you have the answer, but why don't we give someone else a chance this time?" Say what you want, Snape told Hermione exactly what he was going to do and Why, then did it. Please indulge me and allow me tell you a little story about a real teacher and what she did to my real daughter. I'd take Snape over her Any Day Of The Week over this. This lovely, sweet angel of a teacher told my nine-year old student (who has a "conduct problem" which would probably set Snape into apoplexy) that if she "worked really, really hard" the last week of the grading period she would give her an "S" (satisfactory) in conduct so that she could get on the honor roll that term. Student made extra effort--VERY difficult for her--to do so. Approached said sweet angel of a teacher in the morning she knew she'd be in her class and said "I'm going to be extra good in your class today, I promise!" Mother of said student follows up with angelic teacher during the course of the week to check on progress of conduct. Is told "Great improvement, she is working very hard! I'm very pleased!" Ok.... I'll skip ahead to report card day but I'll leave a little bit of space so you can try to guess what happened. Report card day comes and I pick up Crying Nine-Year Old student who, when handed her report card, sans honor-roll certificate, opened it directly to the grade for the sweet angelic teacher's class to see a lovely "N" (Needs improvement) in the conduct column. NOW *there* is a teacher we can all do without. Give me an honest bastard like Snape. I wouldn't have a leg to stand on if I'd gone to argue his report card grade. Is he fair? It's been pointed out here that as far as grades go it seems he is--not even Ron has complained about an unfair grade in Potions. It's also been pointed out that he doesn't appear to inflate Draco's grades. He's not very nice. That's a given. But he's honest and up front and that counts big in my book. Mel: who'd rather give the kid with the wrong answer a chance. From jodel at aol.com Tue Apr 29 19:02:46 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 15:02:46 EDT Subject: Lily related to the Weasleys Message-ID: <4b.2dac9a06.2be02656@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56474 <> Sorry. Both off a bit. Each paired generation from the original connection makes a degree (1st, 2nd) of cousinship, and each additional generation on only one side makes the removes. For Molly to have a second cousin at all her grandparent and that of her second cousin had to have been siblings. The "cousin" path goes; >From Molly's position: Original sibs = Both cousins' grandparents 1st cousins = Both cousins' parents 2nd cousins = Molly and Squib accountant-presumably either Mr or Mrs Evans 3rd cousins = Ginny and Lilly Evans Potter/Petunia Evans Dursley ------------ = Harry Potter/Dudley Dursley Harry and Dudley would be Ginny's 3rd cousins once removed. Which beggs the question since Harry's Evans grandparents are presumably dead, or the Dursleys would have shunted Harry off to live with them and they would not have made a fuss over his magic, while Molly's second cousin sounds as if s/he is still alive and working as an accountant. -JOdel From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 20:01:52 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 20:01:52 -0000 Subject: Neville (was: More on Snape & a couple of questions) In-Reply-To: <031e01c30e84$c3dcb840$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56475 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Katy Cartee" wrote: > bboy_mn wrote: > > > I think 'Squib' is not a very polite term, so I discussing his > > grandmother and himself, he would not be likely to use the term Squib. > > He wasn't talking about his grandmother being a squib. He already said that she was a witch. And calling himself (a wizard) a Muggle was pretty harsh in and of itself. So saying Squib instead of Muggle would have been "downing" himself the same amount in my mind. > > ~Katy~ bboy_mn: Sorry my writing was a little clumsy there. I was implying that in a conversation about his grandmother, who he would treat with some respect, he would not be likely to refer to himself by a crude term like 'squib'. That may be some convoluted logic, but my main point is that the word 'squib' is probably an insult, and would be considered crude and vulgar. As much as Neville is intimidated by his grandmother, the mere fact that the conversation involved her would be enough to put him on his best behavior. I did understand what you said, and knew you were referring to Neville's statement about himself. Sorry for the initial confusion, and sorry again, if I have just added more. bboy_mn From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 19:07:52 2003 From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 12:07:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Is there anything in the HP world that bothers you? In-Reply-To: <20030429.103018.-87956543.0.emeleel@juno.com> Message-ID: <20030429190752.51259.qmail@web21108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56476 Melanie L Ellis: > The one thing that bothers me in the > HP world is JKR's descriptions of > the Mandrakes in CoS. When they > pull up the "seedlings" they are > described as ugly babies. Not > creatures, not monsters, just "babies", > albeit ugly ones with green mottled > skin. From then on throughout the > book, descriptions of them growing up > sound just like children growing up > (acne, getting into each other's pots > to fool around, etc.) And then, > they are CUT UP AND STEWED! > > I won't go so far as to agree with > thecuttingedge.org and try to say that > JKR is trying to inure readers to the > idea that abortion and/or genocide > are okay, but I have to admit the > overly realistic, human-sounding > descriptions of the mandrakes give > me pause. When reading the books with > my kids, I actually changed the > wording a bit here and there, and was > quite relieved that the movie made > them out to be more like monsters and > glossed over the growing-up descriptions, > even though Hagrid did bring > out the line about when their acne had > cleared up, they could be chopped > up and stewed to make the potion. My > kids are only 7 and 4 right now - if > either one of them decide to re-read > the books on their own when they get > older, I will have to sit down and > discuss it with them before they read > CoS. > > I just don't understand why JKR had > to make the Mandrakes seem so *human* > in the story! Your response is perfectly understandable, though I suspect that JKR didn't write the mandrakes to gross anyone out. (Dicentra's already posted the background info that dates back waaay before JKR.) Empathy on your part is a good thing but keep in mind an awful lot of humanity has less-developed sense of empathy and sensitivity to the pangs of pain as felt by plant life. It's debatable, whether JKR's intention is to 'humanize' vegetation (as they too are alive on their own terms) by making the comparison between 'us' and 'them' but I agree that anyone trying to make the case for believing that JKR is trying to inure readers to the idea that abortion and/or genocide has gone too far. How do they know that JKR is 'denigrating' babies by comparing them to plants? I read it as 'elevating' plants by comparing them to babies. It all depends on the POV. Petra a n :) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Tue Apr 29 19:55:15 2003 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Ivan=20Vablatsky?=) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 20:55:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: symbolism in HP Message-ID: <20030429195515.33405.qmail@web21507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56477 I want to thank Bill and Rita very much for their long and detailed responses to my recent postings on the symbolism of HP. Bill has posted a resume of past discussions about the living philosopher?s stone which I found extremely fascinating. He has also posted a very detailed reaction to my comparison of HP and Christian Rosencreutz, within 36 hours of my posting. I can?t believe Bill could have read and analyzed the Chymical Wedding in that short a time. He must have read and studied it before. Perhaps Bill could comment on that. Anyway, my heartfelt thanks to Bill. Rita compared the seven steps of human liberation that I see as hidden in HP to the Mithraic Mysteries, and I?m very thankful to her. It can be read on http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/14970 and my reply is message/14973. I have not yet had time to read all of Bill?s and Rita?s work and comment on it. HP reminds me of the Nasca lines in Peru. If you walk in the desert of the Nasca Valley in Peru you will see faint lines running along the ground where pebbles have been removed to reveal lighter colored stones underneath. These lines are meaningless when you walk on the ground. However if you leave the ground and begin to soar higher and higher, the lines turn out to form great symbols, some of them as big as a kilometer in length. That?s what Harry Potter is like. When you read the words it?s just a kids? story about wizards and witches. But when you withdraw your mind from the details and let it soar high above, like an eagle, you suddenly see the most breathtaking and majestic forms. I?m so glad I?ve been able to meet Bill and Rita up there. As I?ve said, the pattern HP forms when you see it from a long way above is, to my inner vision, the way of human liberation. This pattern is familiar to people because it?s set in the human subconscious, but in addition other great writers have told this same story again and again. Rita and I have listed some of them. One of the great works which I believe is a window on the way back to man?s original universe is the Divine Comedy by Dante. I?m absolutely sure that Dante tells the same story as Dr Rowling does, but I?ve never had the time to read it and analyze it. I wonder if there are any members of this group who would be able to tell us what similarities there are between HP and the Divine Comedy. Bill perhaps? I?ve got a feeling Slytherin?s statue comes in there somewhere. We?ve all no doubt heard of accusations of plagiarism against Dr Rowling. Well, there you are! There IS only one truth and that?s the imprisonment of humanity in this time-spatial universe, and the way back to the Absolute. Dr Rowling is retelling the primordial story again in modern terms. It?s nothing new. Not that I?m in any way discounting her unsurpassed genius. It?s a cook?s skill that makes a delicious dish from the basic ingredients. You can make pancakes and cake from the same ingredients, and you can make foul-tasting or wonderful cakes from them, depending on your skill. Dr Rowling has laid the foundations of her story on the ancient symbols of the death of the three dimensional human being sacrificing himself for the resurrection of the immortal Heir of the Potter, dormant in our hearts. On top of that she has built walls and floors made of great mystical symbols and archetypal myths and legends of all ages. She has covered the house with a roof made of a wonderful detective thriller, and refurbished the house with lots of interesting magical objects. Finally she has populated the house with the richest variety of true characters from a Snape to a Dumbledore. It is true that there are some great coincidences with other novels. I myself have read a book called, "Goodnight Mr Tom." It?s about a young lad in England during the war. The boy is rescued from a cupboard under the stairs, where he lives. He is obviously totally maladjusted and traumatized. He is brought to the country where he develops as a beautiful person with wonderful special artistic skills. And whom does he meet? Ginny, Fred and George, among others. A person like Dr Rowling has read an incredible number of books and the mind of a genius just absorbs everything and gives it back to the world enriched and dynamized. I doubt if she?d remember where she?s read what. I will not call a person like that JKR. To me she?s Doctor Rowling and no one deserves her honorary doctorates of letters more than she does. Out of respect I will always use her correct title. I have also seen comparisons with Victor Hugo?s "Les Miserables". That?s wonderful, because there are two books I?ve always regarded as showing us how to behave as timeless beings. These are "A Tale of Two Cities" by Charles Dickens, and "Les Miserables." I think Harry is the type of person who would have so much compassion as to say about a thief who had stolen his silver: "I have given that to him." The self-sacrifice in "A Tale of Two Cities" is extraordinarily gut-wrenching in my opinion. But there I?m joined by Dr Rowling herself, who has said (as I read in her biography) that the last lines of that book are her favorite ending of any book. It reduces her to tears every time she reads it. Me too! But, once again, this may be bad news for Harry, because here again we have a hint at decapitation (by the guillotine this time). On the surface decapitation sounds horrendous and gruesome, but as a symbol it?s actually sublime and very joyous. When the original dormant human being begins to awaken in the heart, (in my theory) a new soul is born. This soul spreads through the body as an elixir of life, while the old consciousness is still in control. Eventually, as the alchemical process continues, the whole human system is filled with the gold of the spirit, while yet the old consciousness, in self surrender to the new soul, governs. But then, at a certain moment, after the basilisk, i.e. the kundalini, i.e. the old serpent of Slytherin (Lucifer) has been killed by the new soul (Harry), a new consciousness is born. The old consciousness is cut off from the body, as it were. That is my theory of decapitation. John the Baptist symbolizes the old, earthly human being who makes way for the Heir of the Potter - Jesus. The same old story! That?s why the seven people in the Alchemical Wedding of CRC are decapitated. They represent the seven aspects of the consciousness, which are sacrificed for a new omniscient and eternal consciousness. This is why Harry HAS to die in order for the ancient foundation to be followed. But that's not sad; that is a thing of the utmost joy. Who could be upset by the replacement of something mortal and finite by something that is of everlasting grandeur and will grow eternally from power to power and from glory to glory? I?m sure Dr Rowling will make sure we?ll all know that Harry?s death will be of greater value than we can at the moment dream of. Finally I feel compelled to make one last testimony of my deep gratitude to Dr Rowling for Harry Potter. Even if some of you regard all of the above as utter nonsense, I?m sure you will all agree that Harry as a person has captured our hearts. And thus Dr Rowling has made a contribution to radically changing human society. For there are three qualities Harry has in abundance: selflessness, compassion and courage. And those three qualities are precisely the ones that are lacking in our modern world. It is precisely the lack of those qualities that has shoved our world into the mess it?s in. We?re all full of selfishness, we don?t give a damn about anyone else, and we lack the courage to stand up when others are suffering injustice. Well, when civilization has fallen over the edge of the precipice, there will be some survivors who will pick up the broken bits and begin to rebuild the world as a better place than it is now. I?m sure they will be children who have read Harry Potter and will express those three beloved qualities: selflessness, compassion and courage. Hans --------------------------------- Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 20:18:11 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 20:18:11 -0000 Subject: Is there anything in the HP world that bothers you? In-Reply-To: <20030429190752.51259.qmail@web21108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56478 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Petra Pan wrote: > Melanie L Ellis: > > The one thing that bothers me in the > > HP world is JKR's descriptions of > > the Mandrakes in CoS. When they > > pull up the "seedlings" they are > > described as ugly babies. >> >> ...edited... > ..edited... > > It's debatable, whether JKR's intention > is to 'humanize' vegetation (as they too > are alive on their own terms) by making > the comparison between 'us' and 'them' > but I agree that anyone trying to make > the case for believing that JKR is > trying to inure readers to the idea > that abortion and/or genocide has gone > too far. > > ...edited... > > It all depends on the POV. > > Petra bboy_mn: I seemed obvious to me that JKR had taken a minor characteristic of the Mandrake plant, the root vaguely resemble a human body as do the roots of the ginseng plant, and exagerated that characteristic to cartoon levels; ugly babies, acne, socks & scarves, moving in together, etc...., and that is exactly how I picture the mandrake roots in my mind, as little cartoon baby roots. I admit that the thought of casually carving up the roots with human-like characteristics did occur to me, and created some level of intellectual discomfort when I humanized them in my mind, it quickly passed when I reminded myself that it was all fiction, and absurly cartoony fiction at that. I think it would be wise to explain to a very young child what was going on here, and that a real but primitive characteristic of the mandrake was exaggerated to the extreme in order to make it funny. Just a thought. bboy_mn From titaniclady_1912 at hotmail.com Tue Apr 29 18:47:40 2003 From: titaniclady_1912 at hotmail.com (Anne(Anja)) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 18:47:40 -0000 Subject: More on Snape & a couple of questions In-Reply-To: <3EAEA438.000005.82221@monica> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56479 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" wrote: > What do you guys think? Severus and Minerva - good friends or not. > Hmmm ... I think they get along but that's it. From what we know about Snape , he doesn't seem to be interested in being friends with anyone and especially NOT with the Gryffindor Head of House. If Snape called anyone of the Hogwarts staff friend , it would probably have to be Albus Dumbledore , although there is probably more of a father-son relationship between the two of them. It is quite remarkable that Snape obeys to DD's orders almost immediately while he hardly seems to care about anybody else's words (including Fudge's , who is , after all , the Minister of Magic !!!). I think it's also possible that there exists some kind of friendship between Hagrid and Snape although I have to admit that there's no evidence in canon for that except the fact that Hagrid seems to defend him to Harry , Ron and Hermione. Anja From Zarleycat at aol.com Tue Apr 29 20:27:26 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 20:27:26 -0000 Subject: Is there anything in the HP world that bothers you? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56480 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mongo62aa" wrote: > But the thing that really bothered me was the entire 'justice > system', for lack of a better word. Well, Bill walked off with my first big bother about the HP world. The other thing that bothers me is that I can't believe that the wizard world can remain so hidden from the non-wizard world. The UK has its share of screaming tabloids - do you mean to tell me that no one ever spilled the beans about all this magic stuff to any of these publishers? And that parents like the Grangers think nothing of sending their child off to a school of magic? What do they tell their Muggle friends? Do they lie about Hogwarts and vaguely pass it off as some boarding school? Do they have to continually monitor their conversation so that they don't let anything slip? Is the MoM constantly running around making people like the Grangers shut up? And, if they (the Grangers) do let something slip, is there a contingent of MoM workers tirelessly tossing memory charms at Muggles to make them forget what the Grangers may have said? How would the MoM even know that something had been revealed in casual conversation? And what about those Muggles married to magical folk? It doesn't seem that uncommon. Somehow, down through the years, it strikes me that an awful lot of Muggles have indeed come in contact with the wizard world. And all of them kept mum? That doesn't seem possible. And, of course, the flip side of this is how some wizarding folk seem so clueless about the Muggle world. If remaining hidden is so important, it would seem that a great deal of study should focus on how to live and work among Muggles without attracting attention, especially since there don't seem to be whole communities that are exclusively wizarding. So, this wizard/muggle split universe is something that gives me a lot of trouble. Marianne, who's never found Snape sexy. Powerful, yes. Sexy, no. Give me a smart, good-looking man who understands and appreciates animals and machinery. From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 20:29:55 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 13:29:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Teachers and fairness (WAS Is Snape unfair with House Points? ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030429202955.50299.qmail@web21006.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56481 wrote: Give me an honest bastard like Snape. I wouldn't have a leg to stand on if I'd gone to argue his report card grade. Is he fair? It's been pointed out here that as far as grades go it seems he is--not even Ron has complained about an unfair grade in Potions. It's also been pointed out that he doesn't appear to inflate Draco's grades. He's not very nice. That's a given. But he's honest and up front and that counts big in my book. Me: But in one of the books (I think PoA??), wasn't it suggested at the end that perhaps Snape only was forced to pass Harry in potions at the insistance of Dumbledore? I know Harry hates potions because of Snape and Harry is probably not the best potions student because of it, but I doubt if failing him would have been an "honest" grade at all. Rather it would have been a vengeful act but not an honest one. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Tue Apr 29 20:38:08 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 16:38:08 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is there anything in the HP world that bothers you? References: Message-ID: <037901c30e8f$3ec3aff0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56482 Marianne wrote: > And what about those Muggles married to magical folk? It doesn't > seem that uncommon. Somehow, down through the years, it strikes me > that an awful lot of Muggles have indeed come in contact with the > wizard world. And all of them kept mum? That doesn't seem possible. Well sure it is...haven't you ever watched Bewitched or I Dream of Jeanie? ;) > And, of course, the flip side of this is how some wizarding folk seem > so clueless about the Muggle world. If remaining hidden is so > important, it would seem that a great deal of study should focus on > how to live and work among Muggles without attracting attention, > especially since there don't seem to be whole communities that are > exclusively wizarding. Well, Muggle Studies is an elective class...but i agree that it should be mandatory for pure-bloods to take. Elsewise, they'll go flying cars around London without a second thought...*cough*ron*cough* ;) ~Katy~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Tue Apr 29 19:52:23 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 20:52:23 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] More on Snape & a couple of questions References: <20030429174023.86816.qmail@web21001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3EAED7F7.000001.48233@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 56483 Me: What do you guys think? Severus and Minerva - good friends or not. Becky: That's a very good question. I've seen some tenson between Snape and Dumbledore and I believe McDougall over Potter but overall nothing to directly indicate that they are under anything but friendly terms with each other. Heck, in the first book even Hagrid took pains to defend Snape from the kid's accusations. Me again : The only one I found (I skimmed the first three books looking for evidence to back up my theory, not GoF because life's too short ) where Minerva sounded annoyed with him (as opposed to just holding a different opinion) is when the first message from Riddle appears in CoS and Harry lies about why he was in that corridor and Snape's response os to try and get him kicked off the ryffindor Quidditch team (not surprised she's not happy here) and even she's portrayed as being angry she doesn't seem to be too annoyed with him and is sarcastic at him (pointing out Mrs Norris wasn't beatun unconscious with a broom). Snape presumably respects her as she would have been staff when he was a child but I think this use of sarcasm against him may be one reason he likes her. There probably aren't many people who can give as good as they get against Snape. Becky- But on the other hand, he is such a cold and distant person that it is hard to imagine him being good friends with Minerva or anybody. And in the first book which I wish I had in front of me, in his final confrontation didn't our "evil professor of the week" respond to Harry's surprise that the bad guy wasn't Snape by mentioning how Snape did seem the sort and does manage to make himself unpopular? (wish I had the exact quote in front of me) He didn't elaborate if unpopular' pertained to the students, other staff or both. But there is some indirect evidence Snape's relations are not overall totally buddy-buddy at least. Me - I'm not suggesting that he would get all warm and gooey in her presence (mmmm gooey Snaoe ) but he can be distant without being unable to have close friends. And while Snape does 'seem the type' I don't think I'm taking the word of Quirrelmort on anyone's personal relationships or mental stability. If Quirrel had any close friends I think they'd have noticed he had an evil dictator in his hat! K From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Tue Apr 29 20:55:52 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 16:55:52 -0400 Subject: Neville Message-ID: <03b101c30e91$c6ad0360$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56484 bboy_mn wrote: > Sorry my writing was a little clumsy there. I was implying that in a > conversation about his grandmother, who he would treat with some > respect, he would not be likely to refer to himself by a crude term > like 'squib'. That may be some convoluted logic, but my main point is > that the word 'squib' is probably an insult, and would be considered > crude and vulgar. As much as Neville is intimidated by his > grandmother, the mere fact that the conversation involved her would be > enough to put him on his best behavior. Now i get you. I still wonder though if the "degrees of vulgarity" are really that wide between Muggle and Squib. I'm trying to think of something to compare it to...lessee... Let's pretend that i'm some type of scholar (i know, it's a real stretch for the imagination...lol)...now, if i were horrible in school as a child, i might say that everyone thought i was "dumb" or i might say that people thought i was a "moron." Now dumb and moron mean pretty much the same thing (except, of course, one's an adjective and one's a noun...but you get my point)...is there really that big of a difference in their conotations? That's rather how i see Muggle and Squib. But maybe that's just me ;) Actually, in my mind, a Squib would be a step up from a Muggle. For example, they gave Filch (a squib) a job at Hogwarts. How many Muggles do you see working there? None. And we know how "pure-blood activists" feel about Muggles and Mudbloods - they hate them. But we're not told any of their thoughts on Squibs. So it would seem that there is no animosity towards them...perhaps just some pity. > Sorry for the initial confusion, and sorry again, if I have just added > more. Not a problem :) ~Katy~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ivanova at idcnet.com Tue Apr 29 19:12:04 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 14:12:04 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's POV (was Snape is NOT Sexy) References: <20030429184933.12697.qmail@web11006.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004201c30e83$393030b0$87ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 56485 Diana Williams said: > Harry is the Point-of-View character in the story, and if you'll look > back at the story, it is *not* told from the omniscient narrator POV. And severin_szaltis corrected: > I'm afraid not; it *is* an omniscient narrator (or ON). The fact that > the narrator only chooses to tell us what Harry feels and thinks and > not the other characters, is neither here nor there with regard to > the omniscience of the narrator. And I (Morgan) suggest: I'm afraid this is mostly a disagreement on technical terms. Some people use "pov" (point of view) and "narrator" as synonyms. I don't know what are the correct academic terms (especially not in English grammar). I see a distinction in the way the terms are usually used in fanfiction and literature discussions: narrator being, strictly speaking, the voice that tells the story, and "pov" being a possible limitation to the narrator's perspective and knowledge. And I (Kelly) contribute: According to the notes I took at an author panel I attended last summer, there are two types of third person narration: omniscient and focused. Straight from my notes: Focused third person locks into one character's head at a time. In other words, a narrator is telling the story, but for a bit of the story the narrator might only be telling it from Person A's point of view, then he might shift to Person B's. Using this definition, the Harry Potter books are focused third person. Also using this definition, an author using focused third person does not have to stay with his/her original narrator, but can shift to a different narrator if s/he so chooses. It is acceptable to have more than one point of view. Although JKR chooses to tell the majority of the story through one viewpoint, Harry's, there is nothing saying she can't switch to someone else for a short bit. I don't have a problem with her switching viewpoints because it is obvious that it is not from Harry's point of view. She does it in such a way that I don't find myself thinking, "How can Harry know this? He's not even here! Oh, this is from *Ron's* POV." I do agree I found it slightly disorienting in the beginning of GoF to see a different writing style, but it fit with the contents of that chapter. The style seemed to make the chapter even more serious than normal, and it had the effect of driving home the seriousness of the contents even more simply *because* the writing style was different. As for Ron at the Quidditch match, maybe that could have been done in a different way, but I don't think it would have been as effective having Ron tell that story later to Harry as it was for us to actually *watch* what was going on in the stands. Or maybe that's just a sign that PS/SS was her first book, since I can't think of many times she's done it later on. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova/ From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 21:08:29 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 14:08:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] More on Snape & a couple of questions In-Reply-To: <3EAED7F7.000001.48233@monica> Message-ID: <20030429210829.305.qmail@web21003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56486 Kathryn Cawte wrote: I'm not suggesting that he would get all warm and gooey in her presence (mmmm gooey Snape ) Me: I have to admit, a "gooey Snape" would indeed be a sight to behold! Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From d_lea25 at yahoo.ca Tue Apr 29 21:12:17 2003 From: d_lea25 at yahoo.ca (Lea) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 17:12:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Neville (was: More on Snape & a couple of questions) In-Reply-To: <029f01c30e74$23b18ea0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> Message-ID: <20030429211217.18556.qmail@web13001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56487 Katy Cartee wrote: Kathryn Cawte wrote: >Well at that point in the series, we haven't >been introduced to what a "squib" is...and it >probably would've taken away from the scene >to have to stop and explain it. So JKR used a >term that we already knew and has 'basically' >the same meaning - a non-magic person. I >can't imagine there being any deeper meaning >than that. <~Katy~ And me: I always thought the term of Squib was equivalent to Mudblood - everyone knows what it means - but it's not necessarily a term used in civilized company. And just to clarify - a squib is a non-magic person with both parents magical and a mudblood is magical with non-magic parents (eg Filch & Hermione). In Neville's case his family would definitely refer to him as muggle - unless they're trying to insult him. Lea :) --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gandharvika at hotmail.com Tue Apr 29 19:40:18 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 19:40:18 +0000 Subject: (FILK) I'll Hide Instead Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56488 I'll Hide Instead (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _I'll Cry Instead_ by the Beatles) Midi is here: http://members.tripod.com/~StanLHS/midis/midis.html Dedicated to Darrin Burnett for making me laugh at the remarks he jots down at the end of his posts. Voldemort: I've got every reason to be a pessimist Forcing myself each second to exist There's spells that I could do But without a body they are of no use So right now I'll hide instead Not long ago my foes would see me and retreat I was the wizard no one could defeat You should have seen me then Along with my D.E. henchmen But right now I'll hide instead I've got to hide 'coz my power's gone My body died 'coz of Potter's son Was blasted by my own A.K, ay-hey But I'll return again someday And when I do, better watch out Wizarding World I'll do things that'll make all your toes curl Yes, you just wait and see You do not want to mess with me Until then I'll hide instead Before I used to spread fear and doom Now I'm reduced to a noxious fume I have to hide myself away ay-hey But I will make all of them pay I've got to keep myself hidden from the Aurors And where are all my "loyal" followers? Oh, I'll get my revenge I'm gonna show them how to cringe Until then I'll hide instead -Gail B...whose twin brothers, Bob and John, had a band which was called (at different stages) "The Plague", "The Botherations" and my personal favorite, "The Memphis Mafia" _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 21:45:52 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 21:45:52 -0000 Subject: Ethics and Choices (was: On Power) In-Reply-To: <3EAE8C0A.9393180B@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56489 Susan Fox-Davis wrote: This is a quote that came to me from a "Positive Quote of the Day" mailing. "Power is the ability to do good things for others. -- Brooke Astor" As it applies to this list, this is the kind of ethics they need to emphasize to Slytherin students. Why isn't "Magical Ethics" seen in the Hogwarts curriculum? Me: Slytherin students are hardly the only ones who need this. (Don't know why, but I don't trust some of those clever Ravenclaws, and I've long suspected that Crouch, Jr. was in this house, not in Slytherin.) If only the 25% of the students deemed to be at highest risk for darkness get ethics lessons, that would probably just exacerbate the problem--you'd either get Slytherins rebelling just for the sake of rebellion, or a student in one of the other houses would fail to be reached by some very necessary lessons. We don't know for certain that the students won't get lessons of this sort before they finish all seven years, as we've only seen Harry go through four, and his PoV gives us most of our information. (We didn't know about Hogsmeade visits for third years and up until Harry was a third year.) The most logical place to teach ethics, it seems to me (and this will not be a shock to anyone who's read my fanfiction) is in the DADA class. It seems to me that the first way in which you must learn to defend yourself against the dark arts is to prevent yourself from being seduced by the lure of power--conquering the darkness within. This would mean, however, that the DADA teachers would, at some point, need to be more than they have been thus far. Quirrell, at the time Harry started school, had been teaching at Hogwarts for a while, but had the reputation of jumping at the sight of his own shadow. And if he'd been any good at resisting darkness, he never would have become Voldemort's pawn, so he evidently wasn't in a position to teach ethics. Lockhart probably taught his most important lesson to the students inadvertantly--don't believe every blowhard you come across or everything you read (Lockhart's books). He was also rather dark, having been living a lie and taking credit for what others had done, and he had no compunctions about just taking people's memories from them so that he could continue his comfortable life of lies. He wouldn't know ethics if one came up and bit him on the arse. Lupin was a good teacher, and even seemed like he could have given the students some lessons in ethics if only he hadn't been hiding a rather large secret about himself (there's his inner darkness, in spades). And the ersatz Moody certainly wasn't interested in teaching the students to be ethical, as if Barty Crouch, Jr. would know what ethics are any more than Lockhart. (Killing his father, who helped him escape from prison, in addition to all of the other things he did, including participating in torturing Neville's parents when he was only a young man.) I hope that in the sixth or seventh year at the latest, the students begin to confront some of the ethical dilemmas that come from having the kind of power they do. I expect that we will see more good characters tempted to grasp more power than is wise, even Harry. However, I'd like to see his choice whether to succumb or not--or any character's similar choice--be a real choice, rather than something that seems ingrained in the character and therefore inevitable. For a series that has given us a wonderful message about choices being more important than abilities, that message sometimes seems doomed to disappear under a morass of Harry-is-just- too-good-to-do-wrongness that starts to get annoying. I'd dearly love to hear about a mistake Dumbledore made, for instance, and the consequences of it. So far all we have is Harry urging Cedric to take the cup with him, which, in theory, shouldn't have had an adverse outcome. If Harry doesn't make a true mistake at some point, how is he going to learn from it? --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 29 22:09:26 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 22:09:26 -0000 Subject: Teachers and fairness (WAS Is Snape unfair with House Points? ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56490 > > Mel wrote: > > > > > I'd have taken ten.... > > > Bill replied: > > Why? > > > > Snape asked a question of the class. > > > > Hermione raised her hand. > > > > Snape ignored her, and made a sneering comment to the class. > > > > Hermione answered the question. > > > > Snape insulted Hermione, and deducted 5 points for answering the > > question he had asked. > > > > And you think he should have deducted 10 points???? > > > > I really hope that you are not a teacher. > > > Mel replied: > > Not at the moment. > But I honestly wish I had a dollar for every time I have had to > say to the same student something along the lines of "Yes, I'm > sure you have the answer, but why don't we give someone else a > chance this time?" > > > Say what you want, Snape told Hermione exactly what he was going > to do and Why, then did it. Yup. I agree with Mel on this one. Hermione, in PoA, is portrayed as a *pain* when it comes to answering teacher's questions. There's a scene in Ch. 7 where Lupin has specifically asked *Harry* to answer the question. The description reads: 'Trying to answer a question with Hermione next to him, bobbing up and down on the balls of her feet with her hands in the air, was very off-putting, but Harry had a go.' [PoA, p. 101, Ch.7] Hermione is acting like a know-it-all. She doesn't want to give any of her classmates a chance to show what they know, or to learn by trying to answer the questions. She just wants to show off *her* knowledge. Worse, she's actually *discouraging* them from answering. Poor old Harry has to struggle to concentrate. How many other kids in the class think 'why bother, Hermione will know it'? Snape in his class is using a very old teacher's trick. He asks a question to which [he expects] the class will *not* know the answer. He directs the classes attention to the fact that they can't answer the question. Then, when he's got their complete awareness that they can't answer this question - he teaches them how to answer it. Trouble is, Hermione is just about to ruin his lesson plan... This would be forgivable if it were a one off, but as the earlier PoA example shows, it isn't. People on the list have previously described Hermione as a 'perfect student'. She isn't. Hermione's a problem student - a problem because she is *so* bright, she's generally well ahead of the other students. And a problem because she isn't willing to let the teacher teach the lesson their way. She does it to Snape, she does it to Lupin, and she's probably done it to every other teacher. Lupin deals with it by refusing to let Hermione have a turn with the Boggart. Hermione doesn't want others to have their turn, she doesn't get her turn. Actually, I think this is not as helpful to Hermione as Snape's (much nastier) approach. The Lupin approach requires that Hermione work out for herself why she was left out. As Mel says - Snape tells Hermione to let him run the class, takes points off her when she disobeys, and tells her *exactly* where she's gone wrong. It's sharp, nasty and probably very effective. After all, Hermione's improved hugely by GoF. ;-) Pip From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Tue Apr 29 20:22:42 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 16:22:42 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Neville (was: More on Snape & a couple of questions) References: Message-ID: <035c01c30e8d$16abc7c0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56491 bboy_mn wrote: > Sorry my writing was a little clumsy there. I was implying that in a > conversation about his grandmother, who he would treat with some > respect, he would not be likely to refer to himself by a crude term > like 'squib'. That may be some convoluted logic, but my main point is > that the word 'squib' is probably an insult, and would be considered > crude and vulgar. As much as Neville is intimidated by his > grandmother, the mere fact that the conversation involved her would be > enough to put him on his best behavior. Now i get you. I still wonder though if the "degrees of vulgarity" are really that wide between Muggle and Squib. I'm trying to think of something to compare it to...lessee... Let's pretend that i'm some type of scholar (i know, it's a real stretch for the imagination...lol)...now, if i were horrible in school as a child, i might say that everyone thought i was "dumb" or i might say that people thought i was a "moron." Now dumb and moron mean pretty much the same thing (except, of course, one's an adjective and one's a noun...but you get my point)...is there really that big of a difference in their conotations? That's rather how i see Muggle and Squib. But maybe that's just me ;) Actually, in my mind, a Squib would be a step up from a Muggle. For example, they gave Filch (a squib) a job at Hogwarts. How many Muggles do you see working there? None. And we know how "pure-blood activists" feel about Muggles and Mudbloods - they hate them. But we're not told any of their thoughts on Squibs. So it would seem that there is no animosity towards them...perhaps just some pity. > Sorry for the initial confusion, and sorry again, if I have just added > more. Not a problem :) ~Katy~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Tue Apr 29 21:20:18 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (hagrid) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 23:20:18 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Death References: Message-ID: <002e01c30e95$23a381e0$67056750@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 56492 Katie wrote: In my opinion, although Hagrid and Dumbledore's days are numbered, they are still in double figures :) I believe in book 6, Hagrid will sacrifice his life for Me: Well, that makes sense, because in book 1 DD that he would trust Hagrid with his life. And we know how devoted Hagrid is to DD. I had never had thought Hagrid could sacrifice his life for DD, but it's a very good theory. I always imagined people risking his life for Harry, but I supose DD is also in danger, because he could defeat Voldemort, so probably there'll be some attempts to get rid of him too. CHeers, Izaskun Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From HallD at upstate.edu Tue Apr 29 22:02:25 2003 From: HallD at upstate.edu (mmemalkin) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 22:02:25 -0000 Subject: The Living Philosopher's Stone Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56493 Bill writes: >You know, the more I read, the more likely it seems that something >like decapitation will in fact happen to Harry. Me: I couldn't resist the urge to inject my own bit of silliness into an otherwise fascinating discussion... If Harry is beheaded, will he join the Headless Hunt? Will he displace Sir Patrick and allow Sir Nicholas to join? And perhaps the most pressing question of all... What position will he play on the Head Hockey team? Cheers! ;-) Diane From mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com Tue Apr 29 21:26:47 2003 From: mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com (mlle_bienvenu) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 21:26:47 -0000 Subject: Anagrams of Severus Snape (was "If Snape is a vampire, he isn't bothered by sunlight...") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56494 Alchemia Dent: > > > Snape's name also anagrams to: > 'Save Pureness' > what could *that* mean :-P > > > "alchemia_dent" ME: I've always thought it alluded to his Death Eater days. (I'm not among the camp who believes that he was a spy from the start. Here's another one... SUAVE SERPENS (Serpens is the serpent constellation) :smirk: Now tell me, what does that one mean? Lol! Mlle Bienvenu From mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com Tue Apr 29 21:42:39 2003 From: mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com (mlle_bienvenu) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 21:42:39 -0000 Subject: Sirius' name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56495 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "s_shortsnout" wrote: The more prominent of the two, Sirius A, is a white > star with a small oval orbit around Sirius B, "the pup", a black > dwarf that is undetectable to the human eye. So I guess Sirius's > name is actually derives from Sirius B, the Black Dwarf, or "the > Pup", which makes sense because his name is "Sirius Black" and his > animagus form makes him undetactable to the human eye. > Like I said, I don't know if most of you knew this, but I thought it > interesting....I thought his name derived from "Sirius A", I had no > idea there was a Sirius B! > > "S Shortsnout" Me: Oddly enough, Sirius Black can still be named after Sirius A. It just so happens that the name 'black' can mean 'white'. How, you ask? Many times, the name Black is actually derived not from the english color word, but from 'blanc' which means 'white' in French. So it all depends on where the Black family originated...:) Mlle Bienvenu From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Tue Apr 29 22:17:34 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (hagrid) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 00:17:34 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Neville (was: More on Snape & a couple of questions) References: <035c01c30e8d$16abc7c0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> Message-ID: <005701c30e9d$23861530$67056750@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 56496 ----- Original Message ----- From: Katy Cartee To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 10:22 PM Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Neville (was: More on Snape & a couple of questions) bboy_mn wrote: > Sorry my writing was a little clumsy there. I was implying that in a > conversation about his grandmother, who he would treat with some > respect, he would not be likely to refer to himself by a crude term > like 'squib'. That may be some convoluted logic, but my main point is > that the word 'squib' is probably an insult, and would be considered > crude and vulgar. As much as Neville is intimidated by his > grandmother, the mere fact that the conversation involved her would be > enough to put him on his best behavior. Me: Well, maybe Neville used the term "muggle" because he didn't know the term "squib". Let's face it, he's only 12 years old, he doesn't have the kind of vocabulary a grown-up would and probably the "squib" term wouldn't be much heard at home if his relatives thought him one, it wouldn't be very suportive or nice. We usually know words because we have heard them or read them. If there's no squib around, wizards don't need to use the term at all, that would explain why a 12 years-old boy doesn't know it or use it. CHeers, Izaskun From severin_szaltis at yahoo.co.uk Tue Apr 29 22:15:42 2003 From: severin_szaltis at yahoo.co.uk (severin_szaltis) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 22:15:42 -0000 Subject: Harry's POV was Snape is NOT Sexy In-Reply-To: <107201c30e7d$db25bc10$0a02a8c0@DianaPC> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56497 Diana: Nope, sorry, you've got this wrong. An Omniscient Narrator (Also called Third Person Omniscient) tells everything that is going on, regardless of the person's POV. It's not done very much nowadays, but there are several classics that use this technique. (Example: "Dear Reader, you might suppose that Harry's curiosity would be his downfall, but this was not the case for at that moment Hermione was racing to his rescue.") The Harry Potter stories are Third Person limited omniscient, which means they are told in the Third Person (he as opposed to I) and from one or more person's point of view. In this case - Harry's. We don't know any more than Harry does. If it was a "videocamera" kind of POV, it would be Third Person Objective, in which case we would only see what is going on externally, as if we were watching the movie. We would not know Harry's thoughts and feelings on anything - we would have to guess them based on the actions he took and the words he said. SS: Ah no, sorry... I didn't mean `as though we are watching a movie' (though I quite see how you could feel I was suggesting this). When I said video cam, I meant to show that we see what Harry's eyes see (as though he was using video cam to record what he sees), but that this is not the same as every word been Harry's word. Which is clearly what people are thinking narrative POV means. It does not, not even when it is a limited narrator not an omniscient one. When people say "Harry describes," then they are confusing the third person, limited narrator Harry POV with First Person narrative. Clearly, the HP books are not First Person narrative, the narrator therefore does have some input even though it is Harry's POV. We cannot assume that every descripion is biased by Harry's opinion/view. Sometimes it's just a descripion by the narrator of what of what Harry sees and we can assume that we would see the same. For example, with regards to Snape, we would see "greasy hair, a hooked nose and sallow skin," regardless of the POV the narrator is using because Snape has, "greasy hair, a hooked nose and sallow skin." It isn't Harry's bias talking. "Harry saw Snape as a greasy haired hook nosed man with sallow skin," would be his bias. Otherwise we (and the narrator) are using his eyes, not his opinion. SS ~;o) From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Tue Apr 29 20:59:44 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 20:59:44 -0000 Subject: Is there anything in the HP world that bothers you? In-Reply-To: <20030429.103018.-87956543.0.emeleel@juno.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56498 Melanie L Ellis wrote: > I just don't understand why JKR had to make the Mandrakes seem so *human* > in the story! and Bill commented on the state of wizarding justice, too. I always confuse myself over the question of author intent with things like this, but I think the two cases are quite different. I think there are plenty of clues in the text to suggest that wizarding justice is 'meant' to be shocking, in the sense that the reader can enjoy the story and still feel it supports values of justice. In other words, the narrative doesn't endorse the state of justice in wizarding society. Sirius Black is a sympathetic character, it is clearly unfair that Hagrid is taken off to Azkaban, Fudge is shown to be open to dark side influence and so on. The mandrakes are different, because sympathetic characters such as Sprout, Pomfrey and McGonagall don't bat an eyelid about chopping them up for a potion despite their apparently intelligent characteristics. All it would take is a comment from Hermione to establish that all the Mandrakes' behaviour is purely a magical effect with no more feeling than a potato has, but we don't get it. Of course, a future book could let us off that hook, but I suspect JKR enjoys leaving us there. David From meboriqua at aol.com Tue Apr 29 21:47:37 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 21:47:37 -0000 Subject: Hagrid leaning on the Trio Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56499 Hey everyone - A few people questioned what I meant when I said that I thought Hagrid leaned too much on the Trio, so I'll address that. Sometimes it's hard to be objective when explaining why we do or do not like a character, and I have made it more than clear that Hagrid's character is one I do not like. As a teacher, it drives me nuts seeing him do some of the things he does, as an adult whose job it is to work with kids. I love that he has Harry and friends over for tea and that Hermione was able to go to Hagrid when she felt isolated in PoA. Those are, IMO, really nice ways for an adult to have a relationship with kids. My students approach me all the time - about relationship problems, family issues, help with job interviews, and so on. I am happy to listen and to advise my students and I like that Hagrid can do that, too. What I *don't* like, though, is when the roles of Hagrid and the Trio seem to be reversed. It made me uncomfortable when Hagrid cried to Harry and co. about Buckbeak and that they were the ones who did all the research for Buckbeak's trial while Hagrid did nothing. Or when Ron was the one who arranged for baby Norbert's safe escape, Hagrid was too wrapped up in not being able to keep Norbert to lend a hand in getting him to Ron's brother's friends. These two examples show Hagrid's lack of development as an adult. He is too ready to let kids no older than 14 comfort him, offer him advice and risk getting in a good deal of trouble for him. I just don't like it. I just cannot see Hagrid and Harry as equals in their friendship. I'm not saying they don't have one, because they do; Hagrid has been an excellent friend to Harry. However, Harry is too young (not to mention too overburdened) to be the kind of friend to Hagrid that an adult could. Hagrid takes students at Hogwarts into the Forbidden Forest for detention because he is seen as some sort of authority figure there. When he turns around and uses class time to discuss personal issues (Buckbeak's trial), he's abusing his position. He can't have it both ways. I work with teachers who do things like that and I think it is incredibly unprofessional. Whether Hagrid likes it or not, he is the adult, not Harry. Harry should be able to lean on him without ever being burdened with Hagrid's problems as well. Maybe when Harry graduates from Hogwarts they can have a more genuine friendship, but not now. Or maybe I just can't be objective because I'm a teacher and can't imagine doing the things Hagrid does. --jenny from ravenclaw ************** From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 22:07:19 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 22:07:19 -0000 Subject: Is there anything in the HP world that bothers you? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56500 "mongo62aa" wrote: But the thing that really bothered me was the entire 'justice system', for lack of a better word. "kiricat2001" wrote: Well, Bill walked off with my first big bother about the HP world. Me: Amen! "kiricat2001" continued: The other thing that bothers me is that I can't believe that the wizard world can remain so hidden from the non-wizard world. The UK has its share of screaming tabloids - do you mean to tell me that no one ever spilled the beans about all this magic stuff to any of these publishers? Me: I strongly suspect that it does, in fact, crop up in tabloids from time to time, but that the Ministry manages to make sure it is confined to disreputable publications which are not taken seriously. I don't know how many rags I see in the checkout line that have things in them that no person in their right mind would believe--yet there they are. If a story about magic appears in a publication that has a reputation for printing fiction, I don't think the Ministry is going to worry. "kiricat2001" wrote: And that parents like the Grangers think nothing of sending their child off to a school of magic? What do they tell their Muggle friends? Do they lie about Hogwarts and vaguely pass it off as some boarding school? Do they have to continually monitor their conversation so that they don't let anything slip? Is the MoM constantly running around making people like the Grangers shut up? And, if they (the Grangers) do let something slip, is there a contingent of MoM workers tirelessly tossing memory charms at Muggles to make them forget what the Grangers may have said? How would the MoM even know that something had been revealed in casual conversation? Me: I don't think relatives of witches and wizards are likely to let anything slip because they know they'd be thought insane if they did. Memory charms are probably not necessary even if someone does experience a slip of the lip; loud laughter and a cry of, "You aren't taking me SERIOUSLY, are you?" would normally be enough to quell suspicions. As Hagrid said, many Muggles choose not to see what's right before them. Even people with ample evidence under their noses may opt to ignore it for their own sanity. "kiricat2001" wrote: And what about those Muggles married to magical folk? It doesn't seem that uncommon. Somehow, down through the years, it strikes me that an awful lot of Muggles have indeed come in contact with the wizard world. And all of them kept mum? That doesn't seem possible. Me: See above. I don't think any of them are anxious to be considered dangerous and insane. "kiricat2001" wrote: And, of course, the flip side of this is how some wizarding folk seem so clueless about the Muggle world. If remaining hidden is so important, it would seem that a great deal of study should focus on how to live and work among Muggles without attracting attention, especially since there don't seem to be whole communities that are exclusively wizarding. Me: This really mystifies me. Further, as many witches and wizards are Muggle-born or children of mixed marriages, it doesn't make sense for THEM to be clueless. And since only Hogsmeade is an all- wizarding village, most people have to live in close proximity to Muggles, probably, and need to be aware of how to convincingly keep up appearances. While the wizard family at the far end of town may be known as the local eccentrics, it would be wise for them to be able to talk with their neighbors without seeming downright alien. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From guardianapcelt at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 20:12:06 2003 From: guardianapcelt at yahoo.com (guardianapcelt) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 20:12:06 -0000 Subject: Death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56501 bboy_mn: > As far as 'horrible to write', first let's remembered that JKR cried > when she wrote Cedric's death. She loves all her character and knows > them more intimately that we do. The death of anyone of them is the > death of a loved one. Second, in a recent discussion, group members > were challenged to come up with an interview that actually said > 'horrible to write'. There are lots of interviews that use that as a > quote, but NO interview could be found where the words were originally > stated. I had no idea that JKR cried when she wrote Cedric's death! While it certainly makes sense, I find it interesting that something that was to many people (most of the people I've talked to anyway) "Oh, that's a shame", was something that was very painful for JKR. The possibility of that quote being false seems to me much higher now, because, as you said, every death would be horrible to write (which is probably the reasoning behind people looking for the original source in the first place, but hey, I'm behind the times ;-) ) Joe From william.truderung at sympatico.ca Tue Apr 29 22:23:11 2003 From: william.truderung at sympatico.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 22:23:11 -0000 Subject: Teachers and fairness (WAS Is Snape unfair with House Points? ) In-Reply-To: <20030429202955.50299.qmail@web21006.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56502 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Becky Walkden wrote: wrote: Give me an honest bastard like Snape. I wouldn't have a leg to stand on if I'd gone to argue his report card grade. Is he fair? It's been pointed out here that as far as grades go it seems he is--not even Ron has complained about an unfair grade in Potions. It's also been pointed out that he doesn't appear to inflate Draco's grades. He's not very nice. That's a given. But he's honest and up front and that counts big in my book. I just wanted to point out that the above quotation was from "melclaros" , and not me. Bill From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 23:20:45 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 23:20:45 -0000 Subject: Neville Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56503 bboy_mn wrote: > Sorry my writing was a little clumsy there. I was implying that in a > conversation about his grandmother, who he would treat with some > respect, he would not be likely to refer to himself by a crude term > like 'squib'. That may be some convoluted logic, but my main point is > that the word 'squib' is probably an insult, and would be considered > crude and vulgar. As much as Neville is intimidated by his > grandmother, the mere fact that the conversation involved her would be > enough to put him on his best behavior. Me: Yes, I agree with you, Steve. I like this explanation better than "JKR thought of the term 'squib' only when writing CoS," although the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. :) [aside] BTW, in your previous post, which was about 100 messages back, you said that no one could find the "horrible to write" quote. I believe you meant the "fan of Harry's" quote? [/aside] Katy wrote: >Now i get you. I still wonder though if the "degrees of vulgarity" >are really that wide between Muggle and Squib. I'm trying to think >of something to compare it to...lessee... >Let's pretend that i'm some type of scholar (i know, it's a real >stretch for the imagination...lol)...now, if i were horrible in >school as a child, i might say that everyone thought i was "dumb" or >i might say that people thought i was a "moron." Now dumb and moron >mean pretty much the same thing (except, of course, one's an >adjective and one's a noun...but you get my point)...is there really >that big of a difference in their conotations? That's rather how i >see Muggle and Squib. But maybe that's just me ;) Well, actually, I believe that there is nothing derogatory abou the term "Muggle." It's a perfectly acceptable word for referring to non- magic people. Arthur Weasley works at the Misuse of Muggle Artifacts Office (written from memory), which would appear to be an official title. Hermione is always called a Muggle-born witch, as well as many other characters, and no one seems to find it offensive or unacceptable. A Squib, OTOH, is a *failed* wizard. Of course, it's not the Squib's fault, but it's still true. That's the main difference between Muggles and Squibs. I think that there are two reasons for why they might be resented. One is the failure aspect, and the other is the fact that wizards, IMO, want as few non-magic people as possible to know of the WW's existance. Each Squib is an extra, unnecessary person. >Actually, in my mind, a Squib would be a step up from a Muggle. For >example, they gave Filch (a squib) a job at Hogwarts. How many >Muggles do you see working there? None. And we know how "pure-blood >activists" feel about Muggles and Mudbloods - they hate them. But >we're not told any of their thoughts on Squibs. So it would seem >that there is no animosity towards them...perhaps just some pity. Yes, I feel that pity is present there. Take Ron's "it's not funny, really" comment. But, Muggles don't know about Hogwarts and the WW to begin with, so they would even be offered a job there. The majority of those that do are parents and siblings of magical children, and consequently they are quite comfortable where they are, in the Muggle World. And as for "they gave Filch (a squib) a job at Hogwarts" - it's not "they." It's Dumbledore (I assume, at least, and if he hadn't hired him in the first place, he let him stay on). He's also been known to hire Voldemort, DEs, werewolves, and idiots. And, er, half- giants. Maria From metslvr19 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 23:04:09 2003 From: metslvr19 at yahoo.com (Laura) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 23:04:09 -0000 Subject: Is there anything in the HP world that bothers you? In-Reply-To: <20030429.103018.-87956543.0.emeleel@juno.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56504 Melanie L Ellis wrote: > > > The one thing that bothers me in the HP world is JKR's descriptions of the Mandrakes in CoS. When they pull up the "seedlings" they are described as ugly babies. Not creatures, not monsters, just "babies", albeit ugly ones with green mottled skin. From then on throughout the book, descriptions of them growing up sound just like children growing up (acne, getting into each other's pots to fool around, etc.) And then, they are CUT UP AND STEWED! > > > Me: I know *exactly* what you mean! I never read the story to small children, so I didn't have to fudge the details like you did. But I know it creeped me out a little while I was reading it. With all this talk about them "moving in together"- makes them almost seem as if they have feelings or something. I agree that she was making a comic exaggeration, and I'm not about to complain- I'm just saying that I definitely agree, that particular part of the books definitely got under my skin a little bit. As for other candidates of "things in HP that bother you," people have mentioned the justice system. I agree- the justice system (or lack thereof) is horrible, but it's not something about Harry Potter that bothers me. Meaning that these problems (along with the corruption in the MoM) are also Muggle problems- JKR is simply showing that even wizards can't seem to get away from that kind of stuff- they are human after all! Which also rules out my "what about the women?" comment, which was the first thing that came to mind when I saw the title "Is there anything in the HP world that bothers you?" If this is just Harry's PoV and if it will change in future books is yet to be seen, but it irks me none the less. It *really* gets under my skin that so far, we're given very, very little (if any) evidence that Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff are important. But as for strict wizarding aspects of HP, the Mandrakes are way up there! Along with the werewolf stereotypes- which I include as an "almost strictly wizarding problem" because although racism is definitely a Muggle issue, werewolves are not. -Laura From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 22:51:46 2003 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 22:51:46 -0000 Subject: Lily related to the Weasleys FWD: post from Ginger In-Reply-To: <8F497E280916D4119B0100A0C9EA53E7021D5A3B@leonardo.lee.edu> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56505 Andrea wrote: Not necessarily. ;) I think the *closest* relationship that this suggests would be that the Weasley cousin was one of Lily's parents. So if Harry's grandparent was a second cousin to Molly, that would make Harry and Ginny fifth cousins. That's a pretty distant blood relationship, and even the most stringent consanguinity statutues allow for marriage of fourth cousins and above. MaggieB: Sorry to nitpick here, but if I've understood the relationships you have mapped out, Harry and Ginny would be second cousins once removed. (I'm assuming that Molly and Harry's grandparent are first cousins once removed.) Still distant enough for marriage in most areas, but squelchy enough for most people to avoid--especially if the relationship is known. ************* I am forwarding an email from Ginger. Yahoomort has been besieging her, and she cannot post herself. -Haggridd Forwarded message follows: Hi Haggridd, I found your e-dress today. I have wanted to write, but I am in another yahoo-world where I can view the messages from the group, but if you wouldn't mind, would you do me a favour? There is a thread going on which is debating how Harry and Ginny would be related if Harry's grandmother was the accountant that was Molly's second cousin. People have been saying everything from third to fifth cousins, when they would be third cousins once removed. Figure that Molly and the accountant are seconds, that would make Lily and Ginny thirds, which would make Harry and Ginny third once removed. This refers to messages 56351 and 56450. Would you mind passing this on to the group? I *do* wish I could post myself! Maybe soon. Take care, and happy filking, Ginger From KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET Tue Apr 29 23:27:37 2003 From: KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET (Linda) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 23:27:37 -0000 Subject: Neville (was: More on Snape & a couple of questions) In-Reply-To: <035c01c30e8d$16abc7c0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56506 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Katy Cartee" wrote: > bboy_mn wrote: > I still wonder though if the "degrees of vulgarity" are really that wide between Muggle and Squib. And later: > Actually, in my mind, a Squib would be a step up from a Muggle. For example, they gave Filch (a squib) a job at Hogwarts. How many Muggles do you see working there? None. And we know how "pure-blood activists" feel about Muggles and Mudbloods - they hate them. But we're not told any of their thoughts on Squibs. So it would seem that there is no animosity towards them...perhaps just some pity. Now me: I never even thought about the fact that Neville referred to himself as a muggle rather than a squib but now that I have this train of thought in my head I have some thoughts. I think there is a large degree of difference in conotation between the two terms. Just the way the words sound is a clue to me. "Squib" just sounds negative, while "Muggle" has a harmless kind of feel to it. Squib, to me, sounds like it may be a derogatory term, meant as in insult rather than a designation of magical ability. In this context the fact that Filch uses it to refer to himself speaks volumns about his self esteem and how he views his position in life. However, Filch is a whole other discussion so I'll move on. This said, I don't think it would have even occured to Neville to refer to himself as a squib. His fear of his grandmother not withstanding, he seem to be very have been raised with a solid backround of moral values. The only problem he seems to have with morality issues is that he has trouble standing up for what he believes in. However, this is portrayed more as fear than conviction. ( Possibly he grew up too sheltered, but that, too, is for another discussion.) Once he sees personal courage around him, (I'm sure someone told him exactly what happened with his remembral after he left for the hospital wing.)and receives encouragement from his friends,("You're worth twelve of Malfoy.") he stands up for what he feels is right, albeit trembling like Quirrell the whole time. As the books progress he is becoming ever more sure of himself and his ability; not to do magic but to be who he is and be proud of it. Sorry, I'm getting off topic here. The point is that the terms seem to me to have definite positive and negative conotations to them respectively. I don't think it's to the extremes of the differance between say...mudblood and muggle-born. Don't get me started or I'll go on and on and on and on... Linda From kiatrier at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 23:58:38 2003 From: kiatrier at yahoo.com (Kia) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 23:58:38 -0000 Subject: Against all odds, Harry isn't a mass murderer Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56507 >>>>>>Have anyone else ever marvelled at how well adjusted and socially competent Harry turned out, having grown up with the Dursleys? Think about it...he had no idea about who his parents were, only that they had died in a car crash, and any other inquiries into their lives would surely have netted him a tirade from Vernon. Harry is brutalized by Dudley and his gang of cronies (when they can catch him), at school and at home. He isn't fed well, and even as a baby, Petunia couldn't have given him any more care than was necessary to keep him alive. He has never known any kind of love. He isn't allowed any kind of entertainment. He lives in a tiny cupboard under a staircase, infested with spiders. He's scorned and ridiculed at school. I mean, this goes beyond the bittersweet childhood that the typical "doesn't quite fit in" kid goes through. With the exception of physical abuse from his legal guardians, this is the kind of childhood that often produces serial killers, or at the very least maladjusted, very troubled kids. Yet Harry seems to be unaffected by all of this, and comes through the adversity as a sweet, polite, intelligent, and good-hearted young man. Maybe Lilly and James genes just managed to beat out environment in the fight for Harry. This is actually the very first thing that bothered me about the books. If a child from the age of one to the age of eleven isn't shown any kind of love, especially no physical signs of affection (hugs etc), the chances to have a soon to be dead, mentally retarded or very disturbed child are excellent. Harry however is doing great, not a stutter, no clumsiness, no extreme shyness, no problems communicating, having friends etc. It's weird. There two explanations - number one : The Dursleys are mcuh better people than JKR has shown us so far. Number two was revealed to once I actually asked for an explanation regarding this issue. I will paraphrase the bit of wisdom I actually received: "He (Harry) is fictional. That's really the best cure for everything." I think that actually sums up nicely more than one issue in HP. Kia From severin_szaltis at yahoo.co.uk Tue Apr 29 21:32:40 2003 From: severin_szaltis at yahoo.co.uk (severin_szaltis) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 21:32:40 -0000 Subject: Harry's POV was Snape is NOT Sexy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56508 Abigailnus: No one suggested that the books were a first person narrative, which is certainly not the only kind of narrative that allows us to see the world through a particular person's eyes. SS: And I am not suggesting that any one is suggesting that, only that there has been a confusion between the POV a narrator has taken and First Person `feeling.' Abigailnus: A good example of how the books are indeed told from Harry's POV is looking at Harry's misconceptions. SS: I don't dispute the POV only how far we as readers can assume that a Harry bias is intended every time the narrator gives us a description of an event or character. As you say: Abigailnus: Look at Snape, as long as we're talking about him. Harry detests him, with some justification, and has never been able to shake the conviction that Snape is dangerous. And yet, whenever we see Snape interacting with people while unaware that Harry is watching him - his conversations with Moody and Karkaroff in GoF, for example - his venom level goes down. SS: This we also only see because Harry is watching it. It is still Harry's POV. It doesn't matter that Snape is unaware that Harry is watching and we can't assume more or less `Harry bias' because of it. Besides, I disagree that Snape's venom level goes down, in GoF when Harry is stuck on the stairs invisible to Snape, Snape is described as speaking to Moody "coldly" and "in a soft dangerous voice." Abigailnus: Coming back to Snape, and the question of whether his appearance is in fact as odious as Harry perceives it to be. It may be true that Harry's dislike of Snape is coloring his perception, and I would guess that this might have started happening soon after the two met, but Harry's unpleasant descriptions of Snape begin before Snape makes his dislike clear. When Harry first sees Snape at Hogwarts, and during the first Potions lesson, he has no preconceptions and no bias against Snape, and yet he still describes him as physically unappealing. SS: This is coming back to my point, it is NOT in actual fact Harry doing the describing it is the narrator. Yes we have the story from Harry's stand point/POV, that is not the same as Harry describing events or the same as getting only what Harry 'feels.' I refer you to 'A Glossary of Literary Terms' by M. H. Abrahms: The limited point of view. The narrator tells the story in the third person, but stays inside the confines of what is experienced, though and felt by a single character For a revealing analysis, however, of the way even an author who restricts the narrative centre of consciousness to a single character nonetheless communicates authorial judgements on people and events As I said elsewhere the difference between a Limited Narrator POV and a First Person Narrative can at times be a subtle one, but there is a difference. Harry is not doing the describing and we cannot assume a Harry bias with every description. SS ~;o) From ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 23:53:10 2003 From: ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com (ingachristsuperstar) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 23:53:10 -0000 Subject: Is there anything in the HP world that bothers you? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56509 I can't decide if this really bothers me or just assumes me, but here goes anyway: Dumbledore, McGonagall, Molly Weasley, and probably others are frequently depicted conjuring various items - most notably food - out of thin air. This makes me think of the slackers of the wizarding world, who learn the charm to conjure sandwiches so they never have to work ever again. OK, so maybe you can't conjure more complicated things, but I imagine if one's standards were low enough one could get by being a very very lazy witch/wizard. Makes one wonder how they get all the menial, low-paying jobs filled. Come to think of, there's probably a similar problem in the Star Trek universe. -Ing From flamingstarchows at att.net Wed Apr 30 00:21:20 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (FlamingStar Chows) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 19:21:20 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Neville (was: More on Snape & a couple of questions) References: Message-ID: <002801c30eae$6dd0ba80$d516570c@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 56510 Linda : I never even thought about the fact that Neville referred to himself as a muggle rather than a squib ... ----Me---- OK, I'm confused. When did Neville refer to himself in as a muggle? From my US version of CoS, Chapter 11: "They went for Filch first," Neville said, his round face fearful. "An everyone knows I'm almost a Squib." ~Cathy~ From dicentra at xmission.com Wed Apr 30 00:24:13 2003 From: dicentra at xmission.com (Dicentra spectabilis) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 00:24:13 -0000 Subject: The Living Philosopher's Stone (Was: Re: The Spiritual Symbolism of HP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56511 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mongo62aa" wrote: > > I have often thought that it was a terrible shame that so many > wonderful posts to this board end up buried deep in the archives, > never to be seen again. Actually, we've been doing our best to keep up with these wonderful posts. There's a document called "Fantastic Posts and Where to Find Them" at http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/. You can find the Stoned!Harry thread in Hypothetic Alley, http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/hypotheticalley.html. I'd also recommend going back to the original thread and reading it as it unfolds. --Dicentra, who still hangs out with Stoned!Harry from time to time From metslvr19 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 00:41:13 2003 From: metslvr19 at yahoo.com (Laura) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 00:41:13 -0000 Subject: Neville (was: More on Snape & a couple of questions) In-Reply-To: <002801c30eae$6dd0ba80$d516570c@pavilion> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56512 Cathy wrote: > > > OK, I'm confused. When did Neville refer to himself in as a muggle? >From my US version of CoS, Chapter 11: "They went for Filch first," Neville said, his round face fearful. "An everyone knows I'm almost a Squib." > > > While looking up the quote for you, I instantly opened my book to the exact page. I love it when that happens. US paperback, PS/SS, Chapter 7: The Sorting Hat, p. 125 [The students are discussing their heritages] "What about you, Neville?" said Ron. "Well, my gran brought me up and she's a witch," said Neville, "but the family thought I was all-Muggle for ages." Maybe it's interesting to note that this is what the *family* thought, as in, it might be an exact quote. i.e., Neville's gran may sometimes say, "Gee, I hope Neville isn't a Muggle" as opposed to "Gee, I hope Neville isn't a Squib." Which is possible evidence that Squib does have something of a negative connotation. -Laura From metslvr19 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 00:35:23 2003 From: metslvr19 at yahoo.com (Laura) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 00:35:23 -0000 Subject: The Secret to Severus Snape's Sexy Success (Was: Snape is NOT Sexy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56513 Severus Snape: Sexy or Just Eww? First off, you can hate Snape all you want, I really don't care. In fact, were he real, he'd probably resent me a whole lot more than you because of this thread. =) As many others have mentioned before me, Snape is found sexy for a variety of reasons. Although his physical description is less than fantastic, his voice and posture are often described in sexy ways: he swoops and glides rather than walks, and he has a soft, dangerous voice. He's brilliant (I cite his previous position as a *Death Eater*, one of LV's *inner circle* during his early 20's.) He's got a very dark and mysterious past, about 3 million and 1 inner demons, and power. Which makes anyone (females included *wink*) interested. Not necessarily with any sexual connotations. Just plain interested. Hobbit-guy wrote: > > > I don't know. I've never really found hateful, spiteful, or sadistic people sexy. Some people might like the thought of redeeming the evil among them, but I've always figured, "eh, too much effort." Besides, someone (most likely the redeemer) could get hurt. > > > Yes Snape is powerful, but he also abuses this power. And that is *exactly the point.* Power is an aphrodisiac, yes. But what is even more so is something Snape has an abundance of. *Danger* Severus Snape is just plain dangerous. He's a brilliant, sadistic and powerful ex-Death Eater. He also happens to be a nasty jerk. I'm sure we all know how the story goes with women thinking they can change the bad guys. Although I'm sure there is that one woman who can give him exactly what he needs and make him become slightly less of a jerk- if you're not that woman, watch out. And I don't just mean "he might hurt my feelings." I mean "he may well hex me for looking at him for too long." Danger excites a lot of people's curiosities, interests as well as. . .some other things . Risk is not a factor because (although you'd never know it after reading this board) Snape is fictional, so Snape fans can indulge in as many fantasies as they want with the best of both worlds- the intrigue of his dangerous personality without actually putting themselves at risk. Danger is an amazing aphrodisiac, and Snape is about as dangerous as they come. The danger and mystery surrounding him gives him an aura of pure sexiness. -Laura From susannahlm at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 00:52:19 2003 From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (derannimer) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 00:52:19 -0000 Subject: Hurt-Comfort and Comfort-Hurt--There's a Reason They Call Us "Bent." Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56514 Er, well, this is all rather embarrassing, but as I seem to have disturbed Darrin, I thought I'd best take a shot at explaining this statement of mine, about Snape: > 6. He's got guilt and angst and inner conflict. Plus, as I said > before, he's a sadist. So you get Hurt-Comfort and Comfort-Hurt all > in one! Woo-Hoo! embarrassing giggles, until she notices that an awful lot of people > seem to be staring at her, at which point she stops the giggles.> > Ahem. Yes. Well. This would be the DeadSexy part of the argument, I > suppose. Darrin responded: > and decides it's best to leave this to someone of the female > persuasion to answer> Er. Yes, well, sorry about that. But here's what I meant. The Brilliant Elkins, in Message Number 39083, wrote rather a nice description of the Hurt-Comfort dynamic. (The message is primarily about Draco Malfoy, but you'll get the idea.) I'm sorry to snip such an enormous block of text, but it's just so *good.* > What "Hurt-Comfort" comes down to is the fact that women are just > plain Bent, and adolescent girls even more so. They *like* to see > male characters suffer, so long as they do so with some degree of > manly dignity, because it turns them on. Male vulnerability garners > their sympathy, and it also kind of excites them. They like > it. No one ever wants to 'fess up to this, but it's true. Just look > at the characters most often fixated upon as drool-worthy by JKR's > adult female readers, will you? Lupin. Sirius. Snape. > We all know what's *really* going on there, don't we? Are we all > grown-up enough to admit it? All three of those characters have > erotic appeal primarily because they all *suffer* so much. Lupin's > kindness wouldn't alone be sufficient to make him so sexy; it's all > of that exhaustion and illness and emotional damage that really > nets in the fans. Sirius without all those years spent in Azkaban > wouldn't have nearly the following that he has. And Snape...well, > it's all that angst that does it, right? >snip< > And that's just the sort of thing that female readers -- and > particularly adolescent girls -- really go for. It's why they think > Harry's so sexy too, I'd warrant. It's because they're twisted > little FEATHERBOA wearers, each and every one of them. > And JKR must know this. She *must.* I mean, even Draco himself -- > who's really rather stupid, honestly -- is hip to this dynamic. > Just look at how he responds to Pansy in _PoA,_ when she asks him > if his arm hurts. Draco knows the score, all right. A macho "nah, > not really, don't worry about it" just isn't going to win you any > eros points from an adolescent girl, unless there's one heck of a > wince accompanying it. And Draco knows that. To get the adolescent > girls crushing on you, you have to be hurt...yet still doing okay > with it. But not *too* okay. Not really okay down deep inside. Just > marginally okay. Okay for now. Okay, but tottering dangerously on > the cusp on not really okay at all. > Yeah, I think that JKR knows what she's doing with that one. I > think she knew full well that all the adolescent girls were just > going to swoon in guilt-ridden sadistic crush-mode the second that > she smacked poor Harry with all of that Cruciatus in the graveyard, > and I think that she knew exactly what she was doing when she > started beating out her tune on that "Harry can't cry" drum, too. I > think that she knew what she was doing when she gave us poor pallid > haggard prematurely-grey Lupin, and I think that she knew what she > was doing when she told us all about Sirius' haunted Azkaban eyes, > and I even think it possible that she might have had some inkling > of what she was up to when she kicked Snape's emotional legs out > from under him for just a second there in "The Egg and the Eye." And if Elkins thinks it's possible, then who am I to argue? ("It" here meaning "something pertaining to Harry Potter analysis." I'm not adopting her as my new Guide to Life or anything.) But you know, that post I just excerpted up there *is true.* I don't know that men generally understand it very well--I hope they don't at any rate--and I know that it's extremely Bent and Twisted and Warped-- but it is true. Not for everyone, obviously. But for substantial portions of those, as you put it, Darrin, "of the female persuasion." So that's what I meant about the Hurt-Comfort factor there. I personally go all Hurt-Comfort on Snape rather than on Sirius because. . . oh, I don't know. Sirius is a Good Guy--people wuv him, and he didn't really do anything all that wrong, and he's getting his act together quite nicely in GOF, and he's probably going to wind up quite happy at the end of the series. Although possibly heroically dead. And the author seems to crush on him. And--and--well, it's easy for him to be good--you know, as people go. He seems to be naturally a pretty decent--again, as people go--kind of guy. He doesn't have any massive tragic flaws that we know of--his life so far has been tragic, but largely through no fault of his own; and not through a _hamartia_. His problems arose more from external sources than from inward psychological or emotional or spiritual ones. Snape, OTOH, screwed up his life his own self, and seems--Egg and Eye--to feel pretty lousy about it. That's pain for ya. I like that, in a character. And no--I can't separate, I don't think, my enjoyment of a character as a character and my enjoyment of a character as a person. I just don't think that I can do that--if I enjoy reading a character, I just *can't* really hate them. I can certainly disapprove of them-- but that isn't necessarily the same thing. For example, I suspect that in real life, I would utterly *hate* Rita Skeeter. Even if I didn't *know* her, I would hate her reporting, and hate her as a reporter. (And she's got bad taste. ; )) But in GOF, I *love* Rita--and I *love* her articles--and I *love* her reporting. I enjoy her as a character tremendously, and so I would dearly love to see her more in future books--Eileen, you punctured my theory! Waah! You're not being no fun!--and I almost *root* for her, in some sense. And I enjoy her as a character in part because I know I *would* hate her so much in real life--she's just so wonderfully loathsome! How can you not love Rita? So the fact that I might disapprove of a character--which I don't all that much, with Snape--or the fact that I might dislike them in real life--which I probably would, with Snape--doesn't mean that I hate them. It might even make me make love them more. As for the Comfort-Hurt factor. . . Well, first of all, that's not probably the technical name for this phenomenom; "Comfort-Hurt" dates, I believe, from Captain Cindy's remark to Eileen--although perhaps "taunt" should be the noun there-- "You take *comfort* in the fact that Crouch Sr. would not balk at *hurting* you!" But as for how it works. . . well, here. Catlady, Message Number 39101 > In fact, maybe maybe the only masculine virtue that the romantic > [Hurt-Comfort] hero has to demonstrate is Nastiness! So the > romantic heroine is Even More Bent: a masochist as well as a sadist! Or take a look at Marina's comment along similar lines, in 39209 > Which goes a long way toward explaining why I crush on both Snape > and Sirius, but not on Lupin. I'm *extremely* Bent, see, and the > problem with Lupin for me is that he handles his suffering too > well. I mean, Snape's gone all bitter and twisted, stewing alone in > his dungeon over wrongs done to him years ago. Sirius is oh-so- > damaged and post-traumatic, eyes going all haunted whenever > somebody says "Azkaban." But Lupin? Lupin goes along through life, > being kind to everyone who needs his kindness and forgiving to > everyone who needs his forgiveness, giving out chocolate at the > appropriate moments. I admire the heck out of him, but he's just > too darn *sane* for me to crush on, Edge or no Edge. But I think you're getting the idea. ; ) Possibly to your own regret. Derannimer, who, in answer to your unspoken question, has not found herself in a string of hideously abusive relationships with Comfort- Hurt guys--not yet, at any rate--and who doesn't know that either of those dynamics quite works the same way in real life. And who loves Elkins' line, in the post above, where she delineates the boundaries of the state of being "okay" in a Hurt-Comfort context. From william.truderung at sympatico.ca Wed Apr 30 01:29:32 2003 From: william.truderung at sympatico.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 01:29:32 -0000 Subject: symbolism in HP In-Reply-To: <20030429195515.33405.qmail@web21507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56515 I had originally posted a similar message some hours ago, but it appears that it has vanished into cyberspace. So, here is my second attempt: Hans: I want to thank Bill and Rita very much for their long and detailed responses to my recent postings on the symbolism of HP. Bill has posted a resume of past discussions about the living philosopher's stone which I found extremely fascinating. He has also posted a very detailed reaction to my comparison of HP and Christian Rosencreutz, within 36 hours of my posting. I can't believe Bill could have read and analyzed the Chymical Wedding in that short a time. He must have read and studied it before. Perhaps Bill could comment on that. Anyway, my heartfelt thanks to Bill. Me: Actually, this is the first time that I have read the Chymical Wedding. When I read it a few days ago, I was thunderstruck. First of all, are the many close similarities between the Chymical Wedding and the Harry Potter books. The examples that I gave in an earlier post are only some of the many similarities and analogies between the two that I had noticed. There are many more. Possibly the key analogy between the two works is the symbol of (spiritual) death and resurrection: the Phoenix in the Harry Potter books, and the Virgin in the Chymical Wedding. They have played similar roles through the first four stages of each tale. One interesting note is that the Virgin reveals her true name, Alchimia (Alchemy) as a logic puzzle, while in 'Philosopher's Stone' the sixth task in the dungeon is a logic puzzle involving Potions! If the similarities hold up in the fifth book - and the press releases about 'Order of the Phoenix' suggest that they do - then Harry will embark on a journey to a strange new world (of greater spiritual awareness?), accompanied by the Phoenix, where he will make a beginning on his Magnum Opus, his Great Work, just as CRC voyages to a new land, accompanied by the Virgin, for the same purpose. Incidently, I do not think it a coincidence that Harry's position on the House team (with *seven* players) is SEEKER. The second reason for my amazement is that I found the Chymical Wedding to be so absorbing - once I started reading it, I could not stop until I had finished it. The reason that I was so fascinated by it is that, although I had never read it before, it seemed strangely familiar, like a forgotten dream. I am not trying to put on airs, I am sure that this would be a common reaction, as the story resonates so well with our Jungian archetypes. Hans: One of the great works which I believe is a window on the way back to man's original universe is the Divine Comedy by Dante. I'm absolutely sure that Dante tells the same story as Dr Rowling does, but I've never had the time to read it and analyze it. I wonder if there are any members of this group who would be able to tell us what similarities there are between HP and the Divine Comedy. Bill perhaps? I've got a feeling Slytherin's statue comes in there somewhere. Me: I am sorry to say that I have not read the actual poem, but only summaries. Having said that, there may be a number of similarities between the two works. In the Divine Comedy, the figure of Virgil plays the same role, that of Guide, as do the Virgin+wise old man in the Chymical Wedding, and Fawkes+Dumbledore in the Harry Potter books. Also, the Judgement of Minos plays a similar role in the Divine Comedy, as the Weighing by the Stones in Chymical Wedding, and the Sorting by the Hat in the Harry Potter books. Bill From amani at charter.net Wed Apr 30 02:37:55 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 22:37:55 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sexy Lucius Malfoy (was: Sexy Snape) References: Message-ID: <010201c30ec1$83049b20$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56516 stickbook: I always took the position that Snape was the kind of character we love to hate--his near-cartoonish levels of vindictiveness are actually pretty humourous! But what about Lucius Malfoy? He's vindictive with a capital V. I never saw many fangirls swooning after him, certainly not as many as went after Draco. But maybe I'm sheltered. I was just curious: Where do we rate Lucius in terms of sexiness? Me: Lucius only became sexy after seeing the movie, for me. But ohhhhh man, did he become sexy after that. Jason Isaacs was so incredibly smooth and....oh. Just oh. I remember when those clips of scenes were up before the movie came out, and I saw Lucius's first scene, and I nearly peed my pants because he was so /good/ at being so /evil/ and he was absolutely, entirely sexy. --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From grace701 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 02:52:26 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (Greicy de los Santos) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 19:52:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Teachers and fairness (WAS Is Snape unfair with House In-Reply-To: <1051657768.15137.23808.m11@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030430025226.71508.qmail@web14504.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56517 Pip wrote: Lupin deals with it by refusing to let Hermione have a turn with the Boggart. Hermione doesn't want others to have their turn, she doesn't get her turn. Actually, I think this is not as helpful to Hermione as Snape's (much nastier) approach. The Lupin approach requires that Hermione work out for herself why she was left out._____________________________________ Off topic, but I think it's ironic how Hermione, after not being given the opportunity to work with the boggart in class, but watches others doesn't get the gist of defeating a boggart and fails when she confronts one in her finals. Being that it is in the book and watching others confront the boggarts you'd think she'd pass. She really shouldn't have an excuse. She let her fear get the best of her. I hope that she doesn't have another fear that'll cost her her life. Greicy, who loves Hermione --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From byujava at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 00:52:33 2003 From: byujava at yahoo.com (Kirsten Gilson) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 17:52:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Is there anything in the HP world that bothers you? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030430005233.61183.qmail@web41310.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56518 wrote: > I can't decide if this really bothers me or just > assumes me, but > here goes anyway: > > Dumbledore, McGonagall, Molly Weasley, and probably > others > are frequently depicted conjuring various items - > most notably > food - out of thin air. > This makes me think of something that's bugged me. If they can conjure up food and other items, why are the Weasley's considered poor? It seems like they could conjure up all the food they could need, or other itmes they would need. Maybe they couldn't conjure up money or textbooks, or wands, but they could get some of that. Or are they just conjuring up food from the kitchens at Hogarts? The more I think of it, the more I think this must be how it is. It just seems like some things don't mesh with all of this. But I still enjoy it. Kirsten __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From risako at nexusanime.com Wed Apr 30 01:02:36 2003 From: risako at nexusanime.com (Melissa McCarthy) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 22:02:36 -0300 Subject: Is there anything in the HP world that bothers you? References: Message-ID: <003f01c30eb4$32609b40$cd836395@vaio> No: HPFGUIDX 56519 Laura said of the Mandrakes: > With all > this talk about them "moving in together"- makes them almost seem as > if they have feelings or something. I agree that she was making a > comic exaggeration, and I'm not about to complain- I'm just saying > that I definitely agree, that particular part of the books definitely > got under my skin a little bit. It's funny, the Mandrakes didn't bother me at all. I explain the Mandrakes the same way I explain Pikmin: although they have animal-like and even human-like characteristics, they're still plants. As such, they don't have central nervous systems, so they don't feel pain. What bothers me the most about the Wizarding World is its lack of security. Percy takes his orders by letter; Bertha Jorkins' disappearance isn't properly investigated; the Durmstrang ship just shows up at Hogwarts and Ron flies the Ford Anglia in, so that even though you can't Apparate on the grounds, the security is practically nonexistent; heck, even the Veelas at the Triwizard Tournament are a security risk for everyone above puberty who's attracted to women! In a society where everyone over the age of 12 has a wand and even the little kids have some magical abilities, and where the Voldemort crisis was so recent, you'd think people would be a trifle more concerned about security. Melissa, very glad that her new wand arrived in the mail today :) From jgates at eddinc.com Wed Apr 30 01:52:37 2003 From: jgates at eddinc.com (jlg881) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 01:52:37 -0000 Subject: Death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56520 Brittany wrote: > I'd always imagined that someone important in Harry's life, but not very important to the story line, would be the next in line to get the ax. I believe that J.K. was building up to some huge and very important character death by starting out with someone we kinda knew, then to someone who we like, to someone we love, then to someone who we couldn't live without. I see either Oliver(older brother figure), Percy(older administrative figure), or Cho(after H&C had a chance to build up their relationship). I hope I'm wrong but I feel that Oliver is the most likely choice. Oh well, nothing I can do but to worry 'til the book comes out. > > P-A-S 7 I agree with Brittany that it will be someone important in Harry's life, but not very important to the story line. I think it will be Hedwig who will die. She was Harry's first birthday present as a wizard, she goes out of her way to make sure he gets birthday presents from his friends. She has been locked up in Harry's room with him by the Dursleys. Hedwig has shared the wizarding world with Harry, through the good and the bad. Harry has worried about her when she has been gone longer than he thought she should be and he was upset when she was mad with him. Writing and reading about her death would be a terrible experience for anyone. Especially those of us who have lost a beloved pet before. Jean From HallD at upstate.edu Wed Apr 30 02:36:27 2003 From: HallD at upstate.edu (mmemalkin) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 02:36:27 -0000 Subject: Death (& JKR quote 'horrible to write') Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56521 bboy_mn: >Second, in a recent discussion group members were challenged to >come up with an interview that actually said 'horrible to write'. >There are lots of interviews that use that as a quote, but NO >interview could be found where the words were originally stated. Me: I can help you there - I have a video tape of the TV show "Biography," about JKR. It aired in the US on A&E channel, March 22, 2002. In a couple of places during the show, she refers to the fifth book. "More people are going to die... Well, there's at least one death that is going to be horrible to write; to rewrite, actually, because it's already written. But it has to be." "Harry gets to go to places in the magical world we haven't yet visited. More boy-girl stuff, inevitably. They're fifteen now, hormones working overtime. And Harry has to ask some questions that I hope the reader will think, 'Well why hasn't he asked that before?' Harry finds out a lot more, a *lot* more, in this book about his past." ~Diane From fandulin at hotmail.com Wed Apr 30 02:48:48 2003 From: fandulin at hotmail.com (fandulin) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 02:48:48 -0000 Subject: Against all odds, Harry isn't a mass murderer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56522 Kia wrote: > This is actually the very first thing that bothered me about the > books. If a child from the age of one to the age of eleven isn't > shown any kind of love, especially no physical signs of > affection (hugs etc), the chances to have a soon to be dead, > mentally retarded or very disturbed child are excellent. > > Harry however is doing great, not a stutter, no clumsiness, no > extreme shyness, no problems communicating, having friends > etc. It's weird. > > There two explanations - number one : The Dursleys are mcuh > better people than JKR has shown us so far. > > Number two was revealed to once I actually asked for an > explanation regarding this issue. I will paraphrase the bit of > wisdom I actually received: "He (Harry) is fictional. That's really > the best cure for everything." > > I think that actually sums up nicely more than one issue in HP. > > > Kia me: I'm glad i'm not the only one that thinks Harry's childhood was pretty darn wretched. I know we're going to learn more about the Dursleys, and maybe as some have suggested, they'll turn out to be alright. However, whether the rotten upbringing they inflicted on him was through malice, mistrust, or simple negelect, they did some pretty horrible things. Nothing excuses someone from throwing a kid in a cupboard full of spiders, plain and simple. Unfortunately, it pales to some of the stuff you read in real life newspapers every day. As for reason number two, that's the one that actually held me back from joining this list for a bit. I thought "Hmmmm.....a bunch of folks that write volumes of critique and analysis on something as simple and entertaining as Harry Potter." It sounded like something that could get way out of hand, but since I started visiting these boards i've had a lot of fun. I think most folks here realize that in the end it's really the author's creation, and that a lot of what we come up with and muse over, she's thought of too. In the end she decides to go one way, and explain it to us or not as she sees fit. Of course a lot of things in the novels can be explained simply by applying reason number two. For me though, that would negate most of the fun of something like HPFG. It may seem goofy in retrospect to write in depth about who's going to date who, and the connection between Voldemort and Harry's wand, but hey, it's fun! Once again, all credit to the wonderful author that inspires us to do it. I guess the best way I can explain the way Harry manages to come out of his childhood unscathed, without resorting to reason number two is this. MOST kids would have been severely affected by all the things that happened to him (heck, most adults would). MOST kids would not have made it to Hogwarts, and would probably have been consigned to a sterile room with padded walls. Harry is the exception because he's the heroic archetype. Granted, he's in it's fledgeling form, but he's the literary figure that can rise above it all because he has bigger fish to fry. The Hero doesn't let spiders in cupboards and schoolyard bullys get him down, because there is a Voldemort waiting for him down the road. The trials and tribulations that he fights through to get there will make him capable of facing him when that time comes. Fandulin From meboriqua at aol.com Wed Apr 30 01:30:59 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 01:30:59 -0000 Subject: Is there anything in the HP world that bothers you? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56524 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "psychic_serpent" wrote: > I don't think relatives of witches and wizards are likely to let > anything slip because they know they'd be thought insane if they > did. Memory charms are probably not necessary even if someone does > experience a slip of the lip; loud laughter and a cry of, "You > aren't taking me SERIOUSLY, are you?" would normally be enough to > quell suspicions. As Hagrid said, many Muggles choose not to see > what's right before them. Even people with ample evidence under > their noses may opt to ignore it for their own sanity.> Ooh! I just had a thought about this. When I was a kid at sleep away camp, one of my favorite activities was seeing the hypnotist. Only counselors were allowed to volunteer to be hypnotized, and we campers watched. It was amazing! The hypnotist set it up so that when he said certain words, certain people would then have specifically designated reactions. This was real, by the way. Maybe the WW has set up a spell something like that. If a Muggle relative of a witch mentions "Hogwarts", perhaps a spell is activated to make the Muggle and whoever is listening forget what they were discussing or suddenly change the topic. There may be a whole list of words that Muggles just can't discuss, but they just don't know why. --jenny from ravenclaw ********************************** From the_fox01 at hotmail.com Tue Apr 29 23:58:52 2003 From: the_fox01 at hotmail.com (The Fox) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 19:58:52 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is there anything in the HP world that bothers you? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56525 From: "Laura" >But as for strict wizarding aspects of HP, the Mandrakes are way up there! >Along with the werewolf stereotypes- which I include as an "almost strictly >wizarding problem" because although racism is definitely a Muggle issue, >werewolves are not. I don't get that the werewolf thing is an allegory for racism, actually. She handles the racism pretty handily with the pureblood/mudblood issue; I see lycanthropy=AIDS, quite frankly. Anyone else? Fox ... Come on, Nature Just because I don't feel weak Don't mean I feel so strong. -- the Proclaimers .............................. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From grosich at nyc.rr.com Wed Apr 30 03:23:34 2003 From: grosich at nyc.rr.com (Gina R Rosich) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 23:23:34 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is there anything in the HP world that bothers you? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56526 > From: "Laura" > >> >But as for strict wizarding aspects of HP, the Mandrakes are way up there! >> >Along with the werewolf stereotypes- which I include as an "almost strictly >> >wizarding problem" because although racism is definitely a Muggle issue, >> >werewolves are not. > > then The Fox" had this to say: > I don't get that the werewolf thing is an allegory for racism, actually. > She handles the racism pretty handily with the pureblood/mudblood issue; I > see lycanthropy=AIDS, quite frankly. Anyone else? > > ... ME: That?s an interesting take, Fox. I thought of it more as mental illness. Lupin has to take medication once a month to control his mind, even if he can?t stop the physical transformation. It made me think of mood disorders. And, of course, of PMS. So, interesting that Lupin, as a male, would experience a monthly transformation. But your interpretation is a really good one. Gina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dorigen at hotmail.com Wed Apr 30 03:36:40 2003 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 03:36:40 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is there anything in the HP world thatbothers you? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56527 When people talk about Lupin's lycanthropy as if wizards in general are acting like ignorant racists over nothing, I always point out that although their treatment of Lupin and other werewolves is wrong, it is not based on a nonexistent problem. Werewolves *are* dangerous. Snape could have been killed by one. Harry, Hermione, or Ron could have been killed or injured (and infected with lycanthropy) by Lupin, however good his intentions or how honorable he is when in his right mind. I think it's more accurate to say that the wizarding world has failed to deal with an ongoing problem (helping keep werewolves under control and the wizard populace safe from them every month), than to say there is no problem and it's all bigotry and hysteria on the part of the wizards. Why, for example, haven't they provided safe, escape-proof places for the werewolves to stay when they need it? That would be well within wizard technology, if Lupin could even do it for himself when he had to. And now they have the potion which can make things even easier (if, of course, the victims remember to take it ... ) Janet Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 03:41:02 2003 From: ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com (ingachristsuperstar) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 03:41:02 -0000 Subject: Is there anything in the HP world that bothers you? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56528 Sorry about the second post but this one just occurred to me: Does it strike anyone else that Quiddich is not a particularly fair sport? It seems like a lot rides (so to speak) on how fast one's broom is - on something that is entirely out of one's control, has nothing to do with talent, and entirely determined by how much money one's family has. As I recall, in PoA when Harry and Oliver are discussing "the competition" - Cho Chang - Oliver notes that she's a good flyer, but that her broom is sub-par (or sub-Firebolt in any case). And of course in CoS we have the whole Slytherin team on brooms that are much faster than most of the Gryffindors'. Now let's consider some analogies. I suppose one would play better basketball in better sneakers. True enough. But I would say that short of have _no_ shoes, or shoes with holes in them, that the most expensive shoes one could buy would make very little difference to how well one could play. I'm thinking its much more analogous to something like horse- racing. Now, I don't know much about Equestrian sports. I know its in the Olympics. This to me suggests that those sports involve a great deal of skill in the rider and that, as long as the horse is sound and up to the task, then the horse one rides would not make a lot of difference in the outcome. Compare this to horse-racing - as in the kind that people bet on at race-tracks. In this situation it's the _horse_ that wins the race rather than the jockey because its only based on how fast the horse is, not the skill of the rider. Quiddich would definitely involve skill of the rider of the broom - there's no doubt about this. But how can it be fair that no matter how skilled Cho is, Harry is on a broom that just goes faster than her's does? Maybe I'm missing something. -Ing _____________________________________________ "Do you know the difference between right and wrong, and do you have a favourite one?" Dr. Katz From jodel at aol.com Wed Apr 30 03:50:08 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 23:50:08 EDT Subject: Neville Message-ID: <190.1990f737.2be0a1f0@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56529 >>Kathryn Cawte wrote: > Neville - when the new Gryffindors are discussing their origins Neville sayd > "Well, my gran brought me up and she's a witch but the family thought I was > all Muggle for ages" But a non-magical person born into a wizarding family > isn't a muggle, they're a squib - like Filch. So why does he say muggle? We > know his parents were tortured by Death Eaters and are in St Mungos so it's > not like his mother was a squib who married a muggle. I'm confused. << Good point, and while Katy's explanation that it was one too many explanations for that point in the series is a good one structurally, Neville himself is unconcerned with the structure of the books. I think you've just unearthed a clue that Harry and Neville have more in common than the loss of their parents due to Voldemort's ambitions. Clearly one of Neville's parents was Muggle-born. Think about it. The family could only have feared that he was a Muggle if there already *were* actual Muggles in the family. And they would only have gotten that het up over it if there was a real possibility that he might NOT have been born with magic. And until we know whether Neville's gran is Madam Longbottom or Madam something else we won't know which side of his family is the pureblood one. Because there is a enough circumstancial evidence to be pretty confident that his gran is a pureblood. But "Squib" is a fairly shamefull term inside the ww and I suspect that Neville's gran was too uptight to use it in the boy's hearing. Of course after he gets to school and Squibs are explained to him he stats comparing himself to Squibs. As he has done for the past couple of books. -JOdel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From oppen at mycns.net Wed Apr 30 00:47:37 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 19:47:37 -0500 Subject: Snape and Hermione (non-SHIP post) Message-ID: <000701c30ed1$37354ea0$60570043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 56530 I can actually understand why Professor Snape gets irritated with Hermione wanting to answer _all_ the questions and (from his POV) hog the limelight. When he's trying to get someone else to come out with an answer, it would be distracting, at least, to have Hermione bouncing up and down with eagerness to answer. However, I think he's approaching it the wrong way. Were I in his boots (horrors!) I'd wait until Hermione had been particularly show-offy and know-it-all, and ask her to stay after class for a private talk. Once we had some privacy, I would gently explain to her that I _know_ she has, or probably has, the answers. I would then go on to explain that what I'm trying to do is to get _other people_ to answer questions, and that's difficult at best with her bouncing around like a Mexican jumping bean on meth. I think that a lot of her showing off and "know-it-all" behavior is based in deep insecurity about whether she _really_ belongs at Hogwarts---so I'd explain to her, in words of few syllables, that barring _extreme_ rule-breaking, she can count on not being expelled. Her tenure at Hogwarts is secure, so she could relax a little and let me try to deal with some of her classmates, who, to judge from their behavior, have joined a religious order that has had them take a vow of utter silence on all subjects having to do with potions. Matter of fact, if it were me and not Snape in charge of that class, I'd probably put some of Hermione's energy to use by assigning her to see to it that Neville Longbottom gets through without failing his course. If she's busy helping Neville, she won't be quite so eager to answer every possible question, and Neville would find her a much less frightening person to deal with than Snape. --That said, one thing Hogwarts could really use would be some sort of gifted-and-talented program. (Yes, the Ravenclaws have the reputation for studiousness, but I tend to the theory that the Hat selects based on what the student really, really values, and it's possible to value studying and learning without being gifted, just as Hermione is highly gifted but values friendship and bravery more than all the studying in the world.) Come to it---if there had been such a program in place when Professor Snape was a student, Back In The Day, would he have become embittered enough to join the DEs? From Neotoma73 at aol.com Wed Apr 30 04:40:06 2003 From: Neotoma73 at aol.com (Neotoma73 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 00:40:06 -0400 Subject: More on Snape & a couple of questions Message-ID: <39489245.32B3AF4B.026A9F31@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56531 In a message dated 4/29/2003 6:09:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, Anne(Anja)" writes: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" > wrote: > > > What do you guys think? Severus and Minerva - good friends or not. > > > > Hmmm ... I think they get along but that's it. From what we know > about Snape , he doesn't seem to be interested in being friends with > anyone and especially NOT with the Gryffindor Head of House. > If Snape called anyone of the Hogwarts staff friend , it would > probably have to be Albus Dumbledore , although there is probably > more of a father-son relationship between the two of them. It is > quite remarkable that Snape obeys to DD's orders almost immediately > while he hardly seems to care about anybody else's words (including > Fudge's , who is , after all , the Minister of Magic !!!). > I think it's also possible that there exists some kind of friendship > between Hagrid and Snape although I have to admit that there's no > evidence in canon for that except the fact that Hagrid > seems to defend him to Harry , Ron and Hermione. Don't forget he let Filch bandage his leg and complained about Fluffy to the man in SS, and the whole staircase discussion in GoF. Seriously, I think Snape gets along better with the staff (Hagrid, Filch, possibly Pomfrey) than the faculty. That might be a class issue, because there are hints that Snape isn't from quite a refined background as he usually projects. His relationship with Minerva is interesting. She'd have been his teacher, she's his superior as Deputy Headmistress, but he still snarks at her about winning the House Cup six years in a row (PS). There could be anything from friendly teasing (because you know Snape is the sort of person who'd tease his friends mercilessly too) to barely muffled contempt. I'd learn toward the friendlier end of the spectrum, since they do wind up working together on all the crises that happen at school, and thus have to have relationship that is at least cordial enough to let them get anything done. There is certainly nothing in the books between them approaching the frostiness Snape shows Remus, or the outright bugginess that Sirius Black induces. AnneL From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Wed Apr 30 04:44:14 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 00:44:14 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sexy Lucius Malfoy (was: Sexy Snape) Message-ID: <129.28dd2a67.2be0ae9e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56532 stickbook: > But what about Lucius Malfoy? He's vindictive with a capital V. I > never saw many fangirls swooning after him, certainly not as many as > went after Draco. But maybe I'm sheltered. I was just curious: > > Where do we rate Lucius in terms of sexiness? > > Taryn: > Lucius only became sexy after seeing the movie, for me. But ohhhhh man, did > he become sexy after that. Jason Isaacs was so incredibly smooth and....oh. > Just oh. I remember when those clips of scenes were up before the movie > came out, and I saw Lucius's first scene, and I nearly peed my pants > because he was so /good/ at being so /evil/ and he was absolutely, entirely > sexy. Me: I definately agree with Taryn. Before the movie I honestly don't remember even giving Lucius much thought once the book was closed. But during/after....ohhh...there's no better word do describe it. just...oh. Especially during his first scene where he pulls Harry towards him so he can get a better look at his scar and says 'forgive me'. I wanted him to kiss Harry at the moment...though the young Mr. Potter would be replaced by yours truly, of course ^^; ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Wed Apr 30 03:54:23 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 23:54:23 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is there anything in the HP world thatbothers you? Message-ID: <146.104bc17a.2be0a2ef@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56533 Janet Anderson writes: > When people talk about Lupin's lycanthropy as if wizards in general are > acting like ignorant racists over nothing, I always point out that although > > their treatment of Lupin and other werewolves is wrong, it is not based on > a > nonexistent problem. Werewolves *are* dangerous. Snape could have been > killed by one. Harry, Hermione, or Ron could have been killed or injured > (and infected with lycanthropy) by Lupin, however good his intentions or > how > honorable he is when in his right mind. Me: I agree with you. However, I think the 'bigotted racist' part may figure in when the lycanthrope ISN'T in his/her werewolf state. Most wizards probably think werewolves are dangerous, mad creatures all year round. Not that any of them aren't....we've only been introduced to one, after all. I figure it might be due to the same mind set some people might have about...say...a rehabilitated sex offender living in their neighborhood. The person may've been rehabilitated, but those people may still be on gaurd about them and think they'll cause harm to someone. People are untrusting based on reputation. "So what if he takes the wolfsbane potion? So what if he's locked in an escape proof room when he changes. HE'S STILL A WEREWOLF." ~Cassie-who also wonders why they don't have special facilities for werewolfs~ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Neotoma73 at aol.com Wed Apr 30 05:06:53 2003 From: Neotoma73 at aol.com (Neotoma73 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 01:06:53 -0400 Subject: Is there anything in the HP world that bothers you? Message-ID: <69D5CD62.56245BDB.026A9F31@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56534 In a message dated 4/29/2003 10:36:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, "The Fox" writes: > I don't get that the werewolf thing is an allegory for > racism, actually. She handles the racism pretty handily with > the pureblood/mudblood issue; I see lycanthropy=AIDS, quite > frankly. Anyone else? Lycanthropy = AIDS is one way of looking at it, but I've always throught of it as Lycanthropy = mental disease. Lycanthropy is difficult to control, even with proper medication (Wolfsbane), and can cause the suffer to be violent with himself and others. Unfortunately, this sounds a lot like some of the severe mental problems, eg. bipolar diorder, schizotypic disorder, and outright schizophrenia. Heck, even Ron's reaction upon finding out Lupin's a werewolf is within the bounds of reactions to finding out someone has a mental problem -- there is a big stigma against them, and people get very uncomfortable and behave badly towards them. Lupin's just lucky that his anti-psychotic medication is so effective, and doesn't seem to have much in the way of side-effects beyond tasting disgusting. AnneL From DMCourt11 at cs.com Wed Apr 30 05:13:07 2003 From: DMCourt11 at cs.com (bookraptor11) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 05:13:07 -0000 Subject: Neville (was: More on Snape & a couple of questions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56535 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Linda" wrote: > I think there is a large degree of difference in conotation > between the two terms. Just the way the words sound is a clue to > me. "Squib" just sounds negative, while "Muggle" has a harmless kind > of feel to it. Squib, to me, sounds like it may be a derogatory > term, meant as in insult rather than a designation of magical > ability. > Isn't a squib a firework that fizzles out, that doesn't work right? That would make the term derogative with shadings of cruel humor, similar to putting someone down as impotent or ineffectual. A muggle just doesn't happen to be magical, but wasn't expected to be; a squib is expected to be, but is a dud. > The only problem he [Neville] seems to have with > morality issues is that he has trouble standing up for what he > believes in. However, this is portrayed more as fear than > conviction. Once he sees personal courage around him, > (I'm sure someone told him exactly what happened with his remembral > after he left for the hospital wing.)and receives encouragement from > his friends,("You're worth twelve of Malfoy.") he stands up for what > he feels is right, albeit trembling like Quirrell the whole time. Thanks for reminding me of the second quidditch match in PS/SS. Neville not only speaks up for himself to Malfoy ("I'm worth twelve of you, Malfoy." he stammered.), but when Ron jumps Malfoy, he jumps Crabbe and Goyle! Suicidal, but brave. Donna From ratchick22 at hotmail.com Wed Apr 30 06:41:39 2003 From: ratchick22 at hotmail.com (herm - own - ninny) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 06:41:39 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sexy Lucius Malfoy (was: Sexy Snape) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56536 >stickbook: > > But what about Lucius Malfoy? He's vindictive with a capital V. I > > never saw many fangirls swooning after him, certainly not as many as > > went after Draco. But maybe I'm sheltered. I was just curious: > > > > Where do we rate Lucius in terms of sexiness? > > Me (the swooning fangirl): Oh, don't get me started on Sexy!Lucius. He is just so *evil* and so smooth about it, in such a seductive sort of way. Just the fact that he's almost always able to maintain his cool and hold his ground...he radiates such confidence. He manipulates people with skill and ease, acting like he has no morals. Doesn't it make you want to break through that cold exterior, just because no one else can? I for one am dying to know what makes him tick. Draco is one of my favorite characters, and Lucius Malfoy is like a Draco without his soft spots. He is not insecure but utterly confident, he is able to hold his temper, and he always knows what to say and when to say it. His true feelings are impenetrable. He is completely sure of himself and he knows exactly who he is. He is dangerous, he is confident, and he is powerful. Thus, he is sexy. Snape I like because of the mystery and the angst, Lucius I like because he is bad to bone and proud of it. Yes, I'm bent on evil men. So sue me dina _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From ivanova at idcnet.com Wed Apr 30 03:05:29 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 22:05:29 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Against all odds, Harry isn't a mass murderer References: Message-ID: <000101c30ec5$5b873680$73ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 56537 From: fandulin I guess the best way I can explain the way Harry manages to come out of his childhood unscathed, without resorting to reason number two is this. MOST kids would have been severely affected by all the things that happened to him (heck, most adults would). MOST kids would not have made it to Hogwarts, and would probably have been consigned to a sterile room with padded walls. Harry is the exception because he's the heroic archetype. Granted, he's in it's fledgeling form, but he's the literary figure that can rise above it all because he has bigger fish to fry. The Hero doesn't let spiders in cupboards and schoolyard bullys get him down, because there is a Voldemort waiting for him down the road. The trials and tribulations that he fights through to get there will make him capable of facing him when that time comes. From: Me Nice point you brought up. Harry has had enough dreams that show he does remember his past, if only in his subconscious. Flying motorcycles, flashes of green light, a high cold voice... Although not consciously aware of this for those ten years at the Dursleys, a part of Harry remembers Lord Voldemort and what he did to his parents. Following this logic, Harry might also remember Lord Voldemort failing to hurt him. What happened to him in his first year of life would make the hell he experiences living at the Dursleys not so bad after all. Maybe defeating LV even subconsciously gives him the strength to persevere. He made it through LV in one piece, therefore he will survive the Dursleys as well. Not to mention that Harry doesn't seem to question their treatment of him too much, considering it normal, although he hates it. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From jgates at eddinc.com Wed Apr 30 01:43:16 2003 From: jgates at eddinc.com (jlg881) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 01:43:16 -0000 Subject: Harry living past book 7 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56538 I was re-reading SS today and I came across the following passage: Chapter Sixteen Through the Trapdoor Pg 262 US Edition "In years to come, Harry would never quite remember how he had managed to get through his exams when he half expected Voldemort to come bursting through the door at any momemt. Now I know that JKR has answered questions about Harry's life after school with the "How do you know he lives" bit. But with this passage did she let us know that yes he does live or is she just talking about the years between leading up to his 7th year? It made me think and I was wondering what you thought. "Jean Gates" From ivanova at idcnet.com Wed Apr 30 03:30:00 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 22:30:00 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Living Philosopher's Stone References: Message-ID: <002101c30ec8$c8bfffe0$73ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 56539 Bill writes: >You know, the more I read, the more likely it seems that something >like decapitation will in fact happen to Harry. mmemalkin continues: I couldn't resist the urge to inject my own bit of silliness into an otherwise fascinating discussion... If Harry is beheaded, will he join the Headless Hunt? Will he displace Sir Patrick and allow Sir Nicholas to join? And perhaps the most pressing question of all... What position will he play on the Head Hockey team? And I jump in: But Harry can't be beheaded! In PoA or GoF (can't remember which one, too lazy to look it up), Harry has to come up with a whole series of predictions of what will happen to him that month. At the end of that month, he was supposed to be decapitated. Therefore, since he currently still has his head, he made a false prediction and therefore is not going to be beheaded. 8) On the more serious side, maybe this is just another bit of foreshadowing... Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 07:33:46 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 07:33:46 -0000 Subject: Against all odds, Harry isn't a mass murderer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56540 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kia" wrote: > > ...edited... > > Harry however is doing great, not a stutter, no clumsiness, no > extreme shyness, no problems communicating, having friends > etc. It's weird. > > ...edited... > bboy_mn: Not exactly; true Harry has come out of his situation in amazingly good shape but here are many aspect of his personality that reflect his childhood abuse. Harry doesn't trust a lot of people, because he's never in his life had anyone he could trust. He certainly doesn't trust many adults, and rarely turns to them for help or support. He doesn't have many close friends, and doesn't really function well socially. Although, as he grows in confidence, he is getting better. He's a loner. When he decides to go down the trapdoor to save the Stone, he doesn't ask Ron and/or Harry to come with him, nor does he expect them to come. In fact, it never occurs to him. He makes the judgement of and for himself, and is surprised then Hermione and Ron say they are coming. Along, witht his and the other things I mentioned, Harry solves his own problems; like I said, he never asks anyone for help. I've probably explained this better in the past, but it's late an night and the fatigue is catching up with me. But in many many subtle way, I see the elements of an abused child in Harry's personality, but at the same time, I see that these elements are what make him strong. He is one of the few, who has survived this situation and come out of it a person with caring and compations, and a sense of what is truly right. > > ...edited... > > Kia I really think JKR has done an amazing job at creating a realistic personality for Harry; a personality that fits his upbringing, but at the same time is very positive. bboy_mn From samwise_the_grey at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 04:00:17 2003 From: samwise_the_grey at yahoo.com (samwise_the_grey) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 04:00:17 -0000 Subject: Dudley *spoilers* In-Reply-To: <20030429022225.28024.qmail@web41704.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56541 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rona Patterson wrote: > Rona Replies : > Finally someone is thinking what I'm thinking. In chapter one of PS/SS it is said that the Dursleys treated Harry like a bomb that was about to go off. Does anyone find it odd that Petunia and Vernon treat Dudley like a bomb about to go off? I think that when Dudley was young (under 1) he threw a tantrum and did some unfocused magic and Petunia recognized the signs of magic, and in order to stop the magic she needed to give into every sob/scream that Dudley produced. > Rona Yes, I'll bet that's right on the nose. I had always wondered why the Dursley's should encourge such gluttoness behavior in Dudley, but it could be just another way of "stamping out" whatever magical qualities Dudley has. Poor boy. I wonder what will happen to him? ~Samwise From the_fox01 at hotmail.com Wed Apr 30 04:09:55 2003 From: the_fox01 at hotmail.com (The Fox) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 00:09:55 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is there anything in the HP world thatbothers you? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56542 From: Gina R Rosich >Fox had this to say: >>I see lycanthropy=AIDS, quite frankly. Anyone else? > >That's an interesting take, Fox. I thought of it more as mental illness. >Lupin has to take medication once a month to control his mind, even if he >can't stop the physical transformation. It made me think of mood >disorders. And, of course, of PMS. So, interesting that Lupin, as a male, >would experience a monthly transformation. But your interpretation is a >really good one. Thank you. :-) There are elements of what you're saying, I think, but in general, particularly from a social standpoint, I think the AIDS analogy holds up. You can only get lycanthropy by getting bitten by someone who has it (and then only sometimes; if a werewolf in his human form bites you hard enough to break the skin, do you become a werewolf?). And yet werewolves are feared and shunned (and blamed). Ron learns Lupin is a werewolf and backs away, saying "Get away from me, werewolf!" His knee-jerk reaction is to try to avoid even human!Lupin's touch, which everybody knows to be perfectly safe. Snape outs Lupin at breakfast, and Lupin knows the letters are going to start coming in from parents who won't want a werewolf teaching their children. It's true that wolf!Lupin is dangerous, but as long as he takes the appropriate precautions, he's not actually a danger to others. It's frankly irresponsible of him not to let those around him know he has this condition (and that he *is* taking appropriate precautions), because if they knew they could take precautions of their own. Substitute "AIDS" for "lycanthropy" and "person with AIDS" for "werewolf" above, and welcome back to our world. :-/ Fox ........................ "... I think I'd like it if he *could* be wicked and *wouldn't." -- Anne of the Island ... Come on, Nature Just because I don't feel weak Don't mean I feel so strong. -- the Proclaimers .............................. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From purpleangelstar7 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 04:49:31 2003 From: purpleangelstar7 at yahoo.com (Brittany) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 04:49:31 -0000 Subject: Is there anything in the HP world that bothers you? In-Reply-To: <20030430005233.61183.qmail@web41310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56543 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Kirsten Gilson wrote: > This makes me think of something that's bugged me. If > they can conjure up food and other items, why are the > Weasley's considered poor? It seems like they could > conjure up all the food they could need, or other > itmes they would need. Maybe they couldn't conjure up > money or textbooks, or wands, but they could get some > of that. Or are they just conjuring up food from the > kitchens at Hogarts? The more I think of it, the more > I think this must be how it is. > > It just seems like some things don't mesh with all of > this. But I still enjoy it. > > Kirsten I guess in the WW, they have magical rules and regulation as to what you can and cannot conjure up. I suspect that the rich pure-bloods made up rules so that poor families (i.e. the Weasley's) couldn't conjure up money or large bulk food things (like things at Costco or Sam's Club) without MoM being alerted. The rich would want the poor of the WW to constantly suffer and scrounge for their food, thereby making the rich feel better about their situation. Another thought that just occured to me is that some things like dangerous(non magical, no real tracing properties)items would be a huge no-no to conjur up because people could conjure up non-magical devices and use them for their own evil purposes without any evidence from the wand. Of course, the investigaters could use truth-serums, but they would have a harder time catching the perps. Just a thought. P-A-S 7 From ivanova at idcnet.com Wed Apr 30 04:02:44 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 23:02:44 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ethics and Choices (was: On Power) References: Message-ID: <002501c30ecd$5b3d3b90$73ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 56544 Susan Fox-Davis wrote: This is a quote that came to me from a "Positive Quote of the Day" mailing. "Power is the ability to do good things for others. -- Brooke Astor" As it applies to this list, this is the kind of ethics they need to emphasize to Slytherin students. Why isn't "Magical Ethics" seen in the Hogwarts curriculum? psychic_serpent wrote: Slytherin students are hardly the only ones who need this. (Don't know why, but I don't trust some of those clever Ravenclaws, and I've long suspected that Crouch, Jr. was in this house, not in Slytherin.) If only the 25% of the students deemed to be at highest risk for darkness get ethics lessons, that would probably just exacerbate the problem--you'd either get Slytherins rebelling just for the sake of rebellion, or a student in one of the other houses would fail to be reached by some very necessary lessons. We don't know for certain that the students won't get lessons of this sort before they finish all seven years, as we've only seen Harry go through four, and his PoV gives us most of our information. (We didn't know about Hogsmeade visits for third years and up until Harry was a third year.) The most logical place to teach ethics, it seems to me (and this will not be a shock to anyone who's read my fanfiction) is in the DADA class. It seems to me that the first way in which you must learn to defend yourself against the dark arts is to prevent yourself from being seduced by the lure of power--conquering the darkness within. Me: This would actually help to explain why Dumbledore hired some of the teachers he has hired for this position. Reasons to follow in the appropriate places. psychic_serpent: This would mean, however, that the DADA teachers would, at some point, need to be more than they have been thus far. Quirrell, at the time Harry started school, had been teaching at Hogwarts for a while, but had the reputation of jumping at the sight of his own shadow. And if he'd been any good at resisting darkness, he never would have become Voldemort's pawn, so he evidently wasn't in a position to teach ethics. Me: Ok, granted, when Quirrell was originally hired, he wasn't Voldemort's puppet. Maybe at the time he was hired because he actually knew his subject matter. But I think the kids who were attending Hogwarts during Harry's first year got an even better lesson in the end, which would go right into the whole ethical area. Here we have a guy who is afraid of his subject matter. Upon encountering something straight out of his textbooks (granted, it wasn't your typical vampire), he capitulates without a fight and allies with Voldemort. Quirrell taught by being an example of what not to do. In this case, let fear conquer you to the point where you find it easier to give in to darkness at its first sighting instead of fighting against it and resisting. psychic_serpent: Lockhart probably taught his most important lesson to the students inadvertantly--don't believe every blowhard you come across or everything you read (Lockhart's books). He was also rather dark, having been living a lie and taking credit for what others had done, and he had no compunctions about just taking people's memories from them so that he could continue his comfortable life of lies. He wouldn't know ethics if one came up and bit him on the arse. Me: Again, you're right, Lockhart is not qualified to stand up in front of a classroom and teach ethics (or anything else, for that matter). Again, thought, he was able to teach that lesson you cite just by being himself. I have always wondered why Dumbledore ever hired this guy. Lockhart may have been the only applicant for the job, but one would think that Dumbledore himself would have taught the class instead of hiring the first person off the street out of desperation. But maybe Dumbledore was aware of Lockhart's self-inflated personality and brought him in to teach the students what the power of fame can do to a person. In Lockhart's case, the desire to be famous was so overwhelming that he would do anything to get it, even hurt or kill (or let an innocent die) to gain and attain fame. Yeah, it sounds like this lesson could be directed specifically at Harry, who only found out a year ago that he was famous, but the siren call of celebrityhood can affect anyone. Just take a look at Ron's jealousy of Harry in GoF. I am hoping that Dumbledore actually believed on hiring him that Lockhart actually knew something about his subject matter, or I would still have to wonder at the decision to hire Lockhart, as the students didn't learn anything that year in that class ("Expelliarmus," the one Defense they DID learn, was taught to them by Snape). psychic_serpent: Lupin was a good teacher, and even seemed like he could have given the students some lessons in ethics if only he hadn't been hiding a rather large secret about himself (there's his inner darkness, in spades). Me: In this case, maybe a huge lesson about ethics was preempted. It is unknown whether Dumbledore and Lupin planned to keep Lupin's lycanthropy a secret permanently, or planned to out it when people had become used to Lupin as a person. It is far easier to fear something unknown than it is to fear a guy you've known for two or three years and that you have seen to be a good, decent person. However, after certain events in PoA, Snape ruined that lesson plan. Then again, Lupin was probably brought in to teach more for his Dark Arts knowledge and Dumbledore's trust in him (and desire to help the poor Lupin actually get a job) than for any far-reaching plan to further students' relationships with other people/creatures than themselves. psychic_serpent: And the ersatz Moody certainly wasn't interested in teaching the students to be ethical, as if Barty Crouch, Jr. would know what ethics are any more than Lockhart. (Killing his father, who helped him escape from prison, in addition to all of the other things he did, including participating in torturing Neville's parents when he was only a young man.) Me: You have a point there. Moody was most likely hired because he truly does have knowledge of the Dark Arts and is very skilled at defending himself against them. With Wormtail having returned to his master and the prophecy saying that Voldemort would be on the rise, I can see Dumbledore wanting to be sure his students were actually receiving an education this year. There is also the point of Karkaroff and his Durmstrang students being at Hogwarts all year and Dumbledore wanting some extra precautions, but I consider this unproven, since HRH came up with this when they were busy suspecting practically everyone. But if one wants to bring in the ethical viewpoint, if the real Moody had shown up to teach, he might also have regaled the kids with some stories of his time as an Auror and, if you will recall, he was one of the few Aurors who disapproved of the extreme measures granted to them during the last war (killing suspects on sight instead of capturing them, approval of the Unforgivable Curses). Potential ethics lesson there but, instead, we got one who would rather turn students into ferrets and bounce them down the hall. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From purpleangelstar7 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 05:56:32 2003 From: purpleangelstar7 at yahoo.com (Brittany) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 05:56:32 -0000 Subject: Snape and Hermione (non-SHIP post) In-Reply-To: <000701c30ed1$37354ea0$60570043@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56545 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eric Oppen" wrote: > --That said, one thing Hogwarts could really use would be some sort of > gifted-and-talented program... ME: That would be a good idea- as long as it didn't get corrupted. I was in the TAG program (moved onto to University High school program-in high school of course)in middle school and I know from experience that there are several ways to cheat the system and let non-gifted and non-comital students in. I'm not saying that the WW or Hogwarts won't eliminate those students from the program, but I can see someone like a rich kid with a powerful parent (*hint*Malfoy*hint*) get in and do nothing but cheat off of the other hard-working students. It would be nice to see competition between the three major WS (the ones that we know anyway). Speaking of the US version of TAG I can help point out some of the systems: 1. TAG- (Talented and Gifted) the basic form of the talent program. Relatively easy to get into (a child can take a test in the 2nd grade to see if they can be in that program) and can last from 3rd grade up to 8th grade. 2. UHS- (University High School) the basic form of the talent program for high school. Again it is relatively easy to get into. But if your GPA (grade point average) dropped below a 2.0 (or a 'C') then you are immediately expelled from the program and placed into the comprehensive program (regular high school.) Last from 9th grade until 12th. 3. AP- (Advance Placement)the medium form of the talent program for high school. Somewhat hard to get into. Lasts from 11th grade to 12th grade. 4. Pre-IB-(International Baccalaureate)the expanded form of the talent program for high school. Hard to get into. (A teen can take the test in 9th grade for 10th grade with a GPA higher than a 3.0 (or a 'B')) Lasts from 10th grade until 11th grade then you can take a test for: 5. IB- (International Baccalaureate)the highest form of the talent program for high school. *Very* hard to get into. Only 20 of the applicants who enter are selected into the program. Very difficult to do because all of the classes are either AP or some extreme form of math & science. Must maintain a high GPA (I don't remember how high it has to be). The program is very hard but it looks very good to colleges and job employers. Lasts from 11th grade to 12th grade. You guys out there can figure out the years in Hogwarts configures to the TAG system in America (well where I live anyway.) So I hope someone could figure it out- it'll give me something to look forward to tomorrow :) Just a thought P-A-S 7 From SlightlyCashews at aol.com Wed Apr 30 07:27:33 2003 From: SlightlyCashews at aol.com (SlightlyCashews at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 03:27:33 EDT Subject: Is there anything in the HP world that bothers you? - food Message-ID: <126.284c6d5b.2be0d4e5@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56546 From: Ing << Dumbledore, McGonagall, Molly Weasley, and probably others are frequently depicted conjuring various items - most notably food - out of thin air. This makes me think of the slackers of the wizarding world, who learn the charm to conjure sandwiches so they never have to work ever again. OK, so maybe you can't conjure more complicated things, but I imagine if one's standards were low enough one could get by being a very very lazy witch/wizard. Makes one wonder how they get all the menial, low-paying jobs filled. >> ~Me~ The way that I see this, is that the witch or wizard has a basic knowledge of the ingredients and recipes or process/location of what it is that they are conjuring. Magically, they can retrieve and combine of them out of sight, before producing a common food. It doesn't come from thin air, it comes from the cupboard. "Mrs. Weasley slammed a large copper saucepan down on the kitchen table and began to wave her wand around inside it. A creamy sauce poured from her wand tip as she stirred." US paperback GOF Ch. 5, Weasley Wizard Wheezes, p. 59 Presumably, Mrs. Weasley knows where her flour, butter and milk (what's in the white sauce, probably) are kept in her home and can transport and combine them from the cupboard into the sauce before it ever hits the pot. Since her wand is the conductor for her intentions, that where the finished product comes from. As for the slackers, I think they would have to posses the ingredients to make whatever they needed so they still have to figure out how to legally acquire the flour, butter etc. Basically, they have to own the food (or have control over it -- in the Hogwarts kitchens, it's up for grabs) to manipulate it. It would be logical for WW shops to have some kind of ward that would prevent wholesale theft by conjuring the object away. Cis - who's new and hopes she's done it right and semi-logically [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From JessaDrow at aol.com Wed Apr 30 10:28:27 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 06:28:27 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Teachers and fairness (WAS Is Snape unfair with House Message-ID: <24.3d24893c.2be0ff4b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56547 In a message dated 4/29/03 10:59:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, grace701 at yahoo.com writes: > Lupin deals with it by refusing to let Hermione have a turn with the > Boggart. Hermione doesn't want others to have their turn, she > doesn't get her turn. Actually, I think this is not as helpful to > Hermione as Snape's (much nastier) approach. The Lupin approach > requires that Hermione work out for herself why she was left out. > I really didn't get this impression at all from the book, infact I was stumped on why she didn't get a turn. Lupin doesn't seem the type to punish a student who does well by not letting them get class room time. ~Faith~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From JessaDrow at aol.com Wed Apr 30 10:30:34 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 06:30:34 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Against all odds, Harry isn't a mass murderer Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56548 In a message dated 4/29/03 11:00:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, fandulin at hotmail.com writes: > I guess the best way I can explain the way Harry manages to come > out of his childhood unscathed, without resorting to reason number > two is this. MOST kids would have been severely affected by all the > things that happened to him (heck, most adults would). MOST kids > would not have made it to Hogwarts, and would probably have been > consigned to a sterile room with padded walls. Harry is the > exception because he's the heroic archetype. Granted, he's in it's > fledgeling form, but he's the literary figure that can rise above it > all because he has bigger fish to fry. The Hero doesn't let spiders > in cupboards and schoolyard bullys get him down, because there is a > Voldemort waiting for him down the road. The trials and tribulations > that he fights through to get there will make him capable of facing > him when that time comes. > I think Harry is the exception because he has experienced love. When his mother sacrficed himself for her, that was the greatest gift, and it has to leave a mark, I think thats what kept him from going all insane, and murdering the Dursley's in their sleep. ~Faith~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rfa82 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 07:51:55 2003 From: rfa82 at yahoo.com (rfa82) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 07:51:55 -0000 Subject: Neville (was: More on Snape & a couple of questions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56549 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Linda" wrote: > This said, I don't think it would have even occured to > Neville to refer to himself as a squib. Now me: Except that Neville does refer to himself in this way later in the series(I'll try to find out exactly where when I get to my book). He says: "And everyone knows I'm practically a squib anyway." or something similar in conversation with the trio, I seem to remember. But the exact occasion is lost to me. That said, we still don't know if it would occur to Neville to refer to himself as a squib when recalling how his family suspected him of not being magical. This just shows that him being almost a squib is something that he has given a thought. Rune From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Wed Apr 30 13:00:58 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 13:00:58 -0000 Subject: This Nimbus Must Fly (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56550 This Nimbus Must Fly (PoA, Chap. 9) To the tune of This Jesus Must Die from Lloyd Webber's Jesus Christ Superstar Dedicated to Eileen THE SCENE: The Quidditch Field. WOOD delivers some "unwelcome news" to his team. FRED Good Oliver, the Q-Team waits for you. The Weasley twins are here to Beat for you. OLIVER But Slytherin claims they're not up to snuff So we're compelled to now play Hufflepuff CHORUS OF HUFFLEPUFF FANS (outside) Hurrah for Hufflepuff! Hurrah for Hufflepuff! Hurrah for Hufflepuff! Hurrah for Hufflepuff! GEORGE Listen to that Puffed-up mob of Huffles on the grounds! A trick or two with Bludgers, and they think they can rebound OLIVER & HARRY Take them serious! CHORUS (outside) Ced-er-ic Dig-gor-ry! OLIVER & HARRY Take them serious! CHORUS (outside) Tell us you'll lead us to victory KATIE Their team that we played last time we beat with little work. OLIVER We musn't be complacent or they'll make us look like jerks. GQT Take them serious! CHORUS (outside) Ced-er-ic Dig-gor-ry! GQT Take them serious! ANGELINA Look Oliver, their team's inclined to plod ALICIA Look Oliver, we've got the stronger squad. OLIVER No, wait! We need a more accurate description of their Seeker HARRY What then to say about Cedric Diggory? Hufflepuff Seeker Boy, unicorn wand FRED & GEORGE No cunning, no quickness, no shrewdness, no talent. KATIE One thing I'll say for him - he's a true blonde. ANGELINA He will not panic or all fall to pieces His Hufflepuff fans will rejoice in his flight ALICIA But how best to stop him? The weather's caprices Grow worse every minute; looks like a true fight. WOOD I see bad things arising. His team creams the Gryffs, and the Slyths the lead claim. Ollie Wood's deconstruction, My elimination because of one game Wood's deconstruction because of one game. GQT Because, because, because of one game WOOD My elimination because of one game GQT Because, because, because of one, 'cause of one, 'cause of one game. GEORGE What will we do if they play like Tasmanians? HARRY How will we feel if the sky's thundering? FRED How to dislodge then the house with the badger Should they have that edge you allege that they'll bring? WOOD We must make no exceptions! The Gryffindor players declare do or die! We must score a one-fifty! So with Harry on it, this Nimbus must fly. With the weight of our Seeker, this Nimbus must fly. GQT: Must fly, must fly, this Nimbus must fly. WOOD So with Harry on it, this Nimbus must fly. GQT: Must fly, must fly, this Nimbus must, Nimbus must, Nimbus must fly! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 12:06:22 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 05:06:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Teachers and fairness (WAS Is Snape unfair with House In-Reply-To: <24.3d24893c.2be0ff4b@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030430120622.1319.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56551 --- JessaDrow at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/29/03 10:59:53 PM Eastern > Daylight Time, > grace701 at yahoo.com writes: > > > Lupin deals with it by refusing to let > Hermione have a turn with the > > Boggart. Hermione doesn't want others to have > their turn, she > > doesn't get her turn. Actually, I think this > is not as helpful to > > Hermione as Snape's (much nastier) approach. > The Lupin approach > > requires that Hermione work out for herself > why she was left out. > > > > > I really didn't get this impression at all from > the book, infact I was > stumped on why she didn't get a turn. Lupin > doesn't seem the type to punish a > student who does well by not letting them get > class room time. > > ~Faith~ Me: I never got the impression that Hermione was left out on purpose either. I think Lupin never intended to let Harry face the Boggart, for the reason he stated. He asked a question and Hermione answered. Lupin specifically asks Harry the second question. I think that whichever student had answered the first question would not have been given an opportunity to face the Boggart so that Harry would not end up being the only one who didn't face the Boggart. However, Lupin does include both the student and Harry by giving them the same points for answering as he gave those who faced the Boggart. However, when the Boggart ends up rolling in front of Harry as the legless spider, it became obvious he didn't want Harry facing the Boggart. In another vein about that Boggart, I've read where people believe there are extra students in Harry's Gryffindor class due to the Boggart changing into shapes when a specific person hadn't been called to face the Boggart. That may not be the case. Right after that is happening, Lupin makes the comment that the Boggart is getting confused. It could very well be that in it's confusion, the Boggart is changing into random shapes, such as when Lupin tells the class about a Boggart turning to half a slug because it is confused. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET Wed Apr 30 10:58:55 2003 From: KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET (Linda) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 10:58:55 -0000 Subject: Is there anything in the HP world that bothers you? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56552 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ingachristsuperstar" wrote: > Dumbledore, McGonagall, Molly Weasley, and probably others > are frequently depicted conjuring various items - most notably > food - out of thin air. Me: Actually, by the time we get through the four books we already have what I think is an explantion for this. Hermione calls a large amount of attention to it when she forms S.P.E.W.. I'm paraphrasing because I'm at work and don't have the books but the general gist of the passages in POA that clearify this refer to the kitchens ( There were long tables directly under the tables in the great hall.) and in the great hall itself when Hermione refuses to eat the fruits of "slave labor". I think the appearance of food id probably some advanced form of the summoning charm. We also get an inkling of the need to obtain food from Hagrid. He know he keeps roosters and has a garden and to me this leads to the conclusion that his gamekeeping duties include taking care of the animals which will be used for food in the school. I know there is no direct cannon to support that conclusion, but it seems logical. Linda-who is supposed to be working but the boss isn't here. From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 12:37:01 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 05:37:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is there anything in the HP world that bothers you? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030430123701.7218.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56553 Bill wrote: > But the thing that really bothered me was the > entire 'justice > system', for lack of a better word. > > Me: The justice system bothers me too, as well as the amount of bullying you see in the WW in general, not only at Hogwarts. Quite frankly, my child would not be going to Hogwarts (or any school for that matter) if I knew that much bullying was allowed. While I realize bullying is inevitable, the fact no steps are taken to curb it and that teachers are allowed to do it or even seem to encourage it, bothers me to no end. Outside of Hogwarts, you see that Lucius Malfoy was able to bully the other committee members into suspending Dumbledore in CoS without any of them reporting this until things got worse. I suspect that if it wasn't Dumbledore Malfoy had gone after, he'd still be on the school committee. However, all of this is incorporated into my biggest bother - how undeveloped the WW is with regard to modern behavioral norms. The WW seems to have never left the Middle Ages and have just stagnated with their attitudes. It appears the WW has no concept of basic human (or non-human as the case may be) rights (highlighted by their 'justice system' and the lack of any response to bullying behavior), are perfectly comfortable with slavery (house-elves) and appear to have no social conscience with regard to those in their world who are less fortunate (such as apparently having no social services that are available for problems such as orphaned children, e.g. Tom Riddle). For a community that has so much available to them, they should be taking the lead in these types of areas rather than lagging so woefully behind. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From JessaDrow at aol.com Wed Apr 30 13:29:43 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 09:29:43 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Teachers and fairness (WAS Is Snape unfair with House Message-ID: <75.febb0f1.2be129c7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56554 In a message dated 4/30/03 9:23:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ladilyndi at yahoo.com writes: > think Lupin never > intended to let Harry face the Boggart, for the > reason he stated. He asked a question and > Hermione answered. Lupin specifically asks Harry > the second question. I think that whichever > student had answered the first question would not > have been given an opportunity to face the > Boggart so that Harry would not end up being the > only one who didn't face the Boggart. However, > Lupin does include both the student and Harry by > giving them the same points for answering as he > gave those who faced the Boggart. However, when > the Boggart ends up rolling in front of Harry as > the legless spider, it became obvious he didn't > want Harry facing the Boggart. > Wonderful explaination and much more believable, I totally agree. :) ~Faith~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 12:58:13 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 05:58:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Teachers and fairness (WAS Is Snape unfair with House Points? ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030430125813.92239.qmail@web21207.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56555 --- bluesqueak wrote: > As Mel says - Snape tells Hermione to let him > run the class, takes > points off her when she disobeys, and tells her > *exactly* where > she's gone wrong. It's sharp, nasty and > probably very effective. > > After all, Hermione's improved hugely by GoF. > ;-) > Me: Any teacher who would humiliate my child in public would find themselves called on the carpet and I would insist on a public apology to my child. Yes, it's sharp and nasty but I don't agree that it is effective in a positive way. Snape responded not in an adult manner but in a childish one, he publically humiliated her. Now, if he had kept her after class and done this, I wouldn't have the same problem with this. Then, it is private. I remember having a teacher like Snape in school. While I was fortunate enough never to have been on the receiving end of his caustic remarks, it affected me so much that I would never answer in class and this was the only class that I received a grade below B as I was so afraid of what may happen that I never learned anything and it really hurt my enjoyment of learning. On the other hand, I do remember a teacher who kept me after class and told me, in a not so nice manner, how other students were being affected by my behavior in that class (no, I wasn't trying to answer all the questions, rather is was my boredom because I did know the answers LOL). While I still walked out of the meeting crying due to the manner in which I was informed of this, I learned that my behavior does affect others and went back to the teacher later to not only apologize to him but to discuss it further. He ended up becoming a favorite teacher. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 13:06:06 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 13:06:06 -0000 Subject: Snape and Hermione (non-SHIP post) In-Reply-To: <000701c30ed1$37354ea0$60570043@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56556 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eric Oppen" wrote: > --That said, one thing Hogwarts could really use would be some sort of > gifted-and-talented program. I've speculated that such a program exists already. It's part of my theory to explain how Hogwarts could have 1000 students. After being sorted into their houses, someone (teachers, hat, magic pen) divides the classes up into an A group and a B group based on ability. The trio are in the A group, so they have classes with just that group and A groups from the other houses. They aren't told what group is which and probably aren't even aware that's the reason they are grouped. Seriously, this is how it's done at the school I teach at. The students (and most of the parents) are unaware that it's even done. And the groups are mixed a bit such that some of the top of B are put in A and some of the bottom of A are put in B such that you can't be sure which group is which. The classes study the same material at the same time. In fact, unless you've seen the lists it's often very hard to tell which group is which. Serena From Zugzwang_0 at hotmail.com Wed Apr 30 12:54:24 2003 From: Zugzwang_0 at hotmail.com (ecceq) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 12:54:24 -0000 Subject: Harry's POV was Snape is NOT Sexy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56557 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severin_szaltis" wrote: SS: Sure, the books are Harry centric and we follow Harry about, but it isn't him describing things. As something happens it is related to the reader, but not by Harry. It is athough he's carrying a video cam about and we get to see what is recorded by it. SS: As I said elsewhere the difference between a Limited Narrator POV and a First Person Narrative can at times be a subtle one, but there is a difference. Harry is not doing the describing and we cannot assume a Harry bias with every description. I, EcceQ jump into the fray with:- I don't go along with everything you say SS, but I do agree that there are subtle differences between the POV character and the narrator that are not always recognised. People often use these technical literary terms in a confusing way that suggests 'limited point of view' and 'first-person point of view' mean the same thing and/or are interchangeable. Whether this is because people misunderstand the terms or not I wouldn't like to guess, but this blurring of distinction by imprecise use of the terms can lead to a misinterpretation of text and meaning. And more importantly it means the person using the terms doesn't get their meaning across to as many people as they might. DrMM: As for the books description of Snape, remember that the books are told from Harry's POV. Harry doesn't like Snape so he'll exaggerate Snape's physical characteristics. Irene: Don't forget it's a description by Harry. Abigail: No one suggested that the books were a first person narrative, which is certainly not the only kind of narrative that allows us to see the world through a particular person's eyes. Harry Potter is written in Third Person Restricted, which means that while the narrative is indeed written in the third person, it tells us only what a particular person - Harry - is seeing or feeling. Abigail: It may be true that Harry's dislike of Snape is coloring his perception, and I would guess that this might have started happening soon after the two met, but Harry's unpleasant descriptions of Snape begin before Snape makes his dislike clear. When Harry first sees Snape at Hogwarts, and during the first Potions lesson, he has no preconceptions and no bias against Snape, and yet he still describes him as physically unappealing. I, EcceQ: I think that the above quotes from this thread clearly illustrate how the terms are used confusingly and perhaps how they are being misunderstood. Especially the last two; on the one hand it is said that the books are written from a limited person point of view (or third person restricted) but on the other it is also said that Harry is making the descriptions. Both cannot be true or literary critics would not need the distinction between first-person point of view and limited person point of view. 1) In a literal sense a POV is just what can be seen from a specific point by a specific person. So if I stood on a cliff and looked out to sea with someone stood directly behind me resting their head on my shoulder, then it could be said that they are viewing the scene from my POV. They see what I see, of course in this case I also see what they see but the analogy serves well enough. 2) In a literary sense a POV can mean both the above and a mental attitude/an opinion of a specific person. EcceQ stood on the cliff top looking down at the dangerous raging swell below [POV as in 1]. EcceQ felt it's power and saw how dangerous it was for the people trapped below [POV as in 2] Both senses are found in the Harry Potter books, sometimes we know his mental attitude sometimes we only see what he sees. Harry never speaks directly to the reader, what he sees and his thoughts, words, actions and the words and actions of other characters are related to us by the narrator. Harry never describes Snape to the reader and the narrator never (or rarely) reports a description in either Harry's thoughts or words. We see what Harry sees, but getting his point of view in this way does not mean that we are also getting his mental attitude. The story is told in the third person and as such the narrator comes between the reader and the POV character, we are therefore distanced from Harry and his mental attitude to some extent. If this was not the case then literary critics would not need to distinguish between limited point of view and first-person narrative. Diana Williams: We only see the things that Harry sees, and we see them through Harry's eyes - more as if he is sketching out what he sees or writing about it in his diary rather than using a videocamera. ... So the descriptions of Snape are likewise influenced by the fact that we're seeing him through Harry's "sketches" of him. I, EcceQ: The distance between limited point of view narrator and the POV character is not as great as with an omniscient point of view narrator and their characters POVs, but it is there. We read the narrators words, the narrators descriptions, not Harry's. They are descriptions of what Harry sees, but because it is a third person not Harry himself giving the description there has been a separation from what Harry sees and Harry's mental attitude. As such Harry's influence on the descriptions has been restricted. A limited point of view narrator can and will at times separate what Harry sees from 'his' mental attitude. So, although it is true that with a limited point of view, we are not (as a rule) getting the narrator's POV or mental attitude, we mustn't take that to mean that every description is influenced by Harry's mental attitude. The narrators influence must not be disregarded just because they are a limited narrator. EcceQ - hoping she's made her first post in the right way. From burgess at cynjut.net Wed Apr 30 13:42:54 2003 From: burgess at cynjut.net (David Burgess) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 08:42:54 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Teachers and fairness (WAS Is Snape unfair with House In-Reply-To: <1051657768.15137.23808.m11@yahoogroups.com> References: <1051657768.15137.23808.m11@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <56900.204.248.21.50.1051710174.squirrel@www.cynjut.net> No: HPFGUIDX 56558 > Message: 4 > Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 13:29:55 -0700 (PDT) > From: Becky Walkden > Subject: Re: Teachers and fairness (WAS Is Snape unfair with House > Points? ) > > > > wrote: > Give me an honest > bastard like Snape. I wouldn't have a leg to stand on if I'd gone to > argue his report card grade. > Is he fair? It's been pointed out here that as far as grades go it > seems he is--not even Ron has complained about an unfair grade in > Potions. It's also been pointed out that he doesn't appear to inflate > Draco's grades. He's not very nice. That's a given. But he's honest and > up front and that counts big in my book. > > > Me: But in one of the books (I think PoA??), wasn't it suggested at the > end that perhaps Snape only was forced to pass Harry in potions at the > insistance of Dumbledore? I know Harry hates potions because of Snape > and Harry is probably not the best potions student because of it, but I > doubt if failing him would have been an "honest" grade at all. Rather > it would have been a vengeful act but not an honest one. Huggs Becky > It's important to remember that we don't actually "know" that this is what happened. We get it, at best, second hand; we get it in the third person, from Harry, who only believes that he should have failed the class and that Dumbledore must have interceded for him. -- Dave Burgess From alexpie at aol.com Wed Apr 30 13:43:16 2003 From: alexpie at aol.com (alexpie at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 09:43:16 EDT Subject: Horsing around? (Was: Is there anything...?) Message-ID: <184.1a3eb449.2be12cf4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56559 >I'm thinking its much more analogous to something like horse- >racing.? Now, I don't know much about Equestrian sports.? I know >its in the Olympics.? This to me suggests that those sports >involve a great deal of skill in the rider and that, as long as the >horse is sound and up to the task, then the horse one rides >would not make a lot of difference in the outcome This couldn't be more wrong. As someone who has competed in a variety of equestrian sports (and, no, racing is not in the Olympics--jumping, dressage, and eventing are), the horse is an enormous part of the equation (half or better),and a horse must be a good deal more than "up to the task." The heart, brains, and physical ability of a great horse can make an average rider look good, and a good rider look great. The relationship and compatibility of horse and rider are extremely important. I think a better analogy to Quidditch might be racing bikes, as they too can be purchased and have no emotional or physical components to bother about! Ba, emerging from lurkdom to defend all the horses she's loved before [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 13:48:05 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 13:48:05 -0000 Subject: Is there anything in the HP world that bothers you? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56560 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ingachristsuperstar" wrote: > Sorry about the second post but this one just occurred to me: > > Does it strike anyone else that Quiddich is not a particularly > fair sport? It seems like a lot rides (so to speak) on how fast > one's broom is - on something that is entirely out of one's > control, has nothing to do with talent, and entirely determined by > how much money one's family has. > > As I recall, in PoA when Harry and Oliver are discussing "the > competition" - Cho Chang - Oliver notes that she's a good flyer, > but that her broom is sub-par (or sub-Firebolt in any case). And > of course in CoS we have the whole Slytherin team on brooms > that are much faster than most of the Gryffindors'. > > Now let's consider some analogies. I suppose one would play > better basketball in better sneakers. True enough. But I would > say that short of have _no_ shoes, or shoes with holes in them, > that the most expensive shoes one could buy would make very > little difference to how well one could play. But you're forgetting that there are other Muggle sports that involve various kinds of equipment, and the quality of the equipment can potentially make or break an athlete or team. In baseball, players often have 'lucky' bats, or they rely upon the bat-boy/girl to select a 'good' one for them. Would Andre Agassi or Venus Williams play as well on the tennis court if someone handed them just any old racket, rather than one they'd hand-selected and become accustomed to? They would at the very least probably be somewhat disconcerted at first by playing with a different racket, even though in the long run their talent would likely override that. Tiger Woods no doubt likes his own clubs and wouldn't be interested in playing with someone else's, unless he didn't have a choice, and while he'd probably do well, it's possible that he would have done better with his own. > I'm thinking its much more analogous to something like horse- > racing. Now, I don't know much about Equestrian sports. I know > its in the Olympics. This to me suggests that those sports > involve a great deal of skill in the rider and that, as long as > the horse is sound and up to the task, then the horse one rides > would not make a lot of difference in the outcome. Compare this > to horse-racing - as in the kind that people bet on at race- > tracks. In this situation it's the _horse_ that wins the race > rather than the jockey because its only based on how fast the > horse is, not the skill of the rider. No, it's the jockey who wins the race, too. A bad jockey or one who has made a mistake during a race can cost a good horse a win. A good jockey on a so-so horse is more likely to do well than the poor jockey on the fast horse. If jockeys didn't matter, they'd just let the horses race without riders, after all. That would, however, be mayhem. The jockeys are there for a very good reason. Their skills are very important. > Quiddich would definitely involve skill of the rider of the broom - > there's no doubt about this. But how can it be fair that no > matter how skilled Cho is, Harry is on a broom that just goes > faster than her's does? I think that we saw early on, when Harry went after Neville's Remembrall, that he has a natural talent for commanding a broom to do his bidding, almost as though it's part of him, and, as with the jockeys and horses, this can override the quality of the broom, although with a really good broom, a good rider is virtually unstoppable. Is it fair in horseracing for some of the horses to be 'better' than others? Sure it is. The racing is how they figure out which ones are faster. But again--a bad jockey or a bad decision by the jockey can hurt the horse's chance. After all, Malfoy's dad bought Nimbus 2001 brooms for the entire Slytherin team, and Gryffindor still beat them. I'll bet the Slytherins didn't know the first thing--except possibly Malfoy--about how to handle a really good broom. Frankly, on the mediocre flyers, good brooms are probably wasted, and Cho probably does more with her so- so broom than you'd think, because she's a good flyer. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From t.forch at mail.dk Wed Apr 30 13:46:32 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 15:46:32 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and Hermione (non-SHIP post) In-Reply-To: References: <000701c30ed1$37354ea0$60570043@hppav> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030430154538.00d3eef0@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 56561 At 13:06 30-04-03 +0000, Serena Moonsilver wrote: >The trio are in the A group, so they have classes with just >that group and A groups from the other houses. Crabbe and Goyle (Potions, Care of Magical Creatures)? Troels From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 13:36:47 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 06:36:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is there anything in the HP world that bothers you? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030430133647.37276.qmail@web21202.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56562 --- ingachristsuperstar wrote: > Does it strike anyone else that Quiddich is not > a particularly fair > sport? It seems like a lot rides (so to speak) > on how fast one's > broom is - on something that is entirely out of > one's control, has > nothing to do with talent, and entirely > determined by how much > money one's family has. > > > > Quiddich would definitely involve skill of the > rider of the broom - > there's no doubt about this. But how can it be > fair that no matter > how skilled Cho is, Harry is on a broom that > just goes faster > than her's does? > > Maybe I'm missing something. > > -Ing Me: First, as for some of the analogies, in the examples given for equestrian events and horseracing - both the horse and rider are important. In the first, you need a horse who will be able to respond to the rider and do what the rider needs done and in the second you need a rider who can bring out the full potential of the horse. As for basketball, Larry Bird is arguably one of the greatest basketball players ever and yet, if you compared his athletic prowess against someone like Michael Jordan, you would wonder how Bird ever played the game of basketball. I can guarantee it wasn't Bird's sneakers. LOL As for Quidditch, the Weasley twins don't have good brooms and yet their ability overcomes that. The Slytherins all have the best brooms on the market when they take on Gryffindor in CoS and they still lose the game. I don't remember if we're ever told what type of broom Krum has in GoF but he was able to beat the best broom on the market during the World Cup and get the snitch. While Cho didn't have a Firebolt, she was able to throw Harry some curves during that game and stop him at one point from getting the snitch - without cheating like Malfoy does. While good equipment does give an athlete an advantage, if the ability isn't there, it doesn't matter how good your equipment is in most cases. This shows up quite well in the game of Quidditch. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From grace701 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 14:39:51 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (Greicy de los Santos) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 07:39:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 2739 In-Reply-To: <1051709268.156991.53342.m10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030430143951.47061.qmail@web14505.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56563 Jean gates wrote: I was re-reading SS today and I came across the following passage: Chapter Sixteen Through the Trapdoor Pg 262 US Edition "In years to come, Harry would never quite remember how he had managed to get through his exams when he half expected Voldemort to come bursting through the door at any momemt. Now I know that JKR has answered questions about Harry's life after school with the "How do you know he lives" bit. But with this passage did she let us know that yes he does live or is she just talking about the years between leading up to his 7th year? It made me think and I was wondering what you thought. That's a very good observation Jean. I would take it as he did survive and was recalling all the times he had stayed calm while there was someone out there trying to murder you. And someone (can't remember who) mentioned that maybe HP would end with Harry waking up from a dream, this proves that Harry wasn't dreaming at all. Greicy --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Wed Apr 30 13:50:05 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (hagrid) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 15:50:05 +0200 Subject: Snape, how long has he been in Hogwarts? Message-ID: <006001c30f1f$68bdd520$49886750@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 56564 Now, a new question, I hope it hasn't been discussed before. All this talking about Snape has made me realise that we don't know for how long he has been the potions master at Hogwarts. Did he join the school before the Potter's death? Did he join the school after becoming a spy for Dumbledore? Or was he already teaching while he as a DE? My own theory is that he became a teacher after Voldemort tried to kill Harry. Don't ask me why because there's no canon to support it. I think he was a DE, then became a spy for Dumbledore and only after Voldemort's defeat by Harry he joined the school staff, maybe to be near Dumbledore, because he trusts him and wanted him there, I don't know. But I don't like the idea of having a DE at Hogwarts, and if he was already teaching while being one it's a bit strange DD wasn't aware of it. Well, what do you think?? CHeers, Izaskun [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From drmm at fuuko.com Wed Apr 30 13:25:50 2003 From: drmm at fuuko.com (drmm_fuuko) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 13:25:50 -0000 Subject: Harry's POV was Snape is NOT Sexy In-Reply-To: <20030429105231.76529.qmail@web20703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56565 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, L Finn wrote: DrMM: > > "As for the books description of Snape, remember that the books are told from Harry's POV. Harry doesn't like Snape so he'll exaggerate Snape's physical characteristics. Sure, Snape is definatly not the most physically attractive character in the book (greasy hair, big nose) but that doesn't mean he's totally, completely ugly. Nobody accuses Viktor Krum of being repellant and his physical description is reasonably similar to Snape's." Severin Szlatis replied: >>> Sure, the books are Harry centric and we follow Harry about, but it isn't him describing things. As something happens it is related to the reader, but not by Harry. It is athough he's carrying a video cam about and we get to see what is recorded by it. >> So although we see the world that Harry sees, I'm not sure that we can say that descriptions of Snape or of any thing/one else are tainted by Harry's bias/POV. Except were we're told, `or so it seemed to Harry,' or somesuch similar attachment they are just bald descriptions, not Harry's opinion... Unless that is, we are also to assume that Snape's long black cloak is only long and black to Harry, that Hermione's hair is only bushy in Harry's opinion and that if we looked with our own eyes Hagrid's peepers would be pink and Snape's hair really would be glossy not greasy. >>>> I reply: Well, I don't have the books anywhere near me right now as I'm on vacation for a few days (AKA -- I can't prove this with quotes, although I may be tempted to try later). However, if my memory serves me correctly, the first description is fairly simple -- black greasy hair, a hooked nose .... After Snape and Harry start to interact, the descriptions of Snape get worse and worse. They're particularly nasty when Snape insults Harry or one of his friends. *shrugs* Therefore, I think it's safe to assume that Harry's personal opinions DO influence Snape's description. DrMM (meandering around Tokyo for a few days) From KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET Wed Apr 30 14:08:35 2003 From: KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET (Linda) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 14:08:35 -0000 Subject: Neville (was: More on Snape & a couple of questions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56566 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Rune wrote: > That said, we still don't know if it would occur to Neville to refer > to himself as a squib when recalling how his family suspected him of > not being magical. This just shows that him being almost a squib is > something that he has given a thought. Me: The conversation takes place after Justin and Nearly Headless Nick are attacked. Neville is reminded that he doesn't need protection as he is a pure blood and he replies by refering to himself as almost being a squib. Neville doesn't use the word squib until after it has been used around him in COS. All the students heard Filch refer to himself as one as they were crowded into the hallway where Mrs Norris was found. If Neville didn't know what it was, I'm sure he would have asked one of his fellow Gryffindors; ie the same way that Harry had to be told what mudblood meant. -Linda From Lynx412 at aol.com Wed Apr 30 14:32:26 2003 From: Lynx412 at aol.com (Lynx412 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 10:32:26 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and Hermione (non-SHIP post) Message-ID: <160.1fa66a41.2be1387a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56567 In a message dated 4/30/03 10:28:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, t.forch at mail.dk writes: > At 13:06 30-04-03 +0000, Serena Moonsilver wrote: > >The trio are in the A group, so they have classes with just > >that group and A groups from the other houses. > > Crabbe and Goyle (Potions, Care of Magical Creatures)? > They'd be the B group contingent, or possibly they are with Malfoy for political reasons. We don't know that they made friends/became associated on the train to Hogwarts. They may have known each other prior [I believe this has been suggested before] and it was deemed expedient to keep them together...especially if it was known/suspected that al three were DEs. Cheryl the Lynx [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 15:35:56 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 15:35:56 -0000 Subject: Is there anything in the HP world that bothers you? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56568 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ingachristsuperstar" wrote: > I can't decide if this really bothers me or just assumes me, but > here goes anyway: > > ...edited... > > This makes me think of the slackers of the wizarding world, who > learn the charm to conjure sandwiches so they never have to > work ever again. > > Makes one wonder how they get all the menial, low-paying jobs > filled. > > ...edited... > > -Ing bboy_mn: Let's make a distinction between what is conjured and what is made to appear. When Molly is cooking, she apparently conjures a white sauce, the sauce comes from the tip of her wand into a sauce pan. But at the same time real potatoes are being magically washed, peeled, and chopped. Now to the distinction- That which is conjured is not permanent. I was made from nothing and in a short (although greatly veriable) period of time it returns to nothing. Molly may have conjured the white sauce because white sauces are frequently made with cream and are very very rich and fattening, so to keep the rich flavor, but reduce the fat and calories, plus reduce the expense. she used conjured white sauce. That means that no matter how delicious a conjured meal may taste, in an hour or two it returns to nothing, and in the long run you end up starving to death. On the other hand, when Harry/Ron/Hermione join Dumbledore in Hagrid's cabin to talk him into returning to his teaching job, the tray of tea and cakes that Dumbledore makes appear may have just been transferred from the kitchen. Everything was there in the kitchen waiting, and Dumbledore just assembled it and delivered it by magic, but it was real food. The example of the purple squashy sleeping bags that Dumbledore made appear in the Great Hall while the castle was being search. They could have been conjured, or they could have simply been magically transferred from storage. When Molly or the house-elves cook food, they more than likely have real raw ingredients stored and use magical methods of preparing, cooking, and delivering this real food. I'm guessing most magical cooking is a blend of magically prepared real food, and conjured food. Think how cool that would be. You could eat all the conjured ice cream, chocolate, and pie that you wanted and never gain an ounce of weight. So, the impermanence of conjured items is the draw back. You can conjure new clothes, but in time they will disappear and you will have to conjure new ones again. Which could be embarassing if the time runs out while you are in a busy shop. You can conjure new food, but that food returns to nothing, and as good as it may have tasted, it has no food value. You can conjure shelter, but unless you want to do it again every hour, you need to create something made from real raw material. Just a thought. bboy_mn From ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 15:05:16 2003 From: ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com (ingachristsuperstar) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 15:05:16 -0000 Subject: fairness of Quiddich (WAS: Is the anything that bothers you about HP ...) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56569 OK, so people have responded to my concerns about the fairness of Quiddich mainly by pointing out the flaws in my analogies. OK, I readily admitted I wasn't very familiar with Equestrian sports (although I did know horse racing wasn't an Olypmic sport :) ). We've heard that the horse is important to the outcome in the Olympic Equestrian sports. We've heard that the jockey is important in horse racing. Good enough. This just means that both of these sports are closer to the problem with Quiddich that I thought - that people are partially getting credit for winning when their win was based on their equipment/horse/wealth rather than skill. Maybe this indicates that these sports aren't entirely fair either. *ducks* Now before I get hit with the "life's not fair line," I of course recognized in my original post that the skill of the Quiddich player is important. There is no doubt about this. It is _very important_! Yes, the Weasley twins on their old slow brooms still managed to beat the Slytherins on the Nimbus 2001's. So yes, a skilled flyer can compensate for having a sub-par broom. Absolutely. However ... They are starting from a weaker position. For instance (as in my previous example with Harry and Cho), if Cho and Harry saw the snitch at the same time, all Harry would have to do is go after it. As long as he did that, and it came down to a race for the snitch, he would win, no matter how good a flyer Cho is. Now Cho could use a lot of tactics to keep Harry from getting the snitch. She could block him - as described in the book. But the thing is, Harry would never have to worry about this kind of manoeuvre. He would never have to block Cho since she is not a threat in a race. He doesn't have to work as hard. Cho would have to race for the snitch AND block Harry. Cho has an extra burden. She has to use more complex tactics. My point is not that Quiddich is _inherently_ unfair. Its just that it may be _more_ fair if they played on standard issue brooms rather than allowing some to be inherently faster than others. -Ing From reigelblu at sbcglobal.net Wed Apr 30 14:54:38 2003 From: reigelblu at sbcglobal.net (SUSAN MYERS PROBERT) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 07:54:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Living Philosopher's Stone In-Reply-To: <002101c30ec8$c8bfffe0$73ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: <20030430145438.24710.qmail@web80012.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56570 I just couldn't bear to see this happen. I want Harry to grow up and live a fullfilling, rewarding, happy life! He desrves it! Yeah, yeah, it fits with Rosa Crutian philosphy, but I just don't want to see that happen. Kelly Grosskreutz wrote:Bill writes: >You know, the more I read, the more likely it seems that something >like decapitation will in fact happen to Harry. mmemalkin continues: I couldn't resist the urge to inject my own bit of silliness into an otherwise fascinating discussion... If Harry is beheaded, will he join the Headless Hunt? Will he displace Sir Patrick and allow Sir Nicholas to join? And perhaps the most pressing question of all... What position will he play on the Head Hockey team? And I jump in: But Harry can't be beheaded! In PoA or GoF (can't remember which one, too lazy to look it up), Harry has to come up with a whole series of predictions of what will happen to him that month. At the end of that month, he was supposed to be decapitated. Therefore, since he currently still has his head, he made a false prediction and therefore is not going to be beheaded. 8) On the more serious side, maybe this is just another bit of foreshadowing... Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 13:37:04 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 13:37:04 -0000 Subject: Is there anything in the HP world that bothers you? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56571 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "psychic_serpent" wrote: > "kiricat2001" wrote: > > And, of course, the flip side of this is how some wizarding folk > seem so clueless about the Muggle world. If remaining hidden is so > important, it would seem that a great deal of study should focus on > how to live and work among Muggles without attracting attention, > especially since there don't seem to be whole communities that are > exclusively wizarding. > > Me: > This really mystifies me. Further, as many witches and wizards are > Muggle-born or children of mixed marriages, it doesn't make sense > for THEM to be clueless. And since only Hogsmeade is an all- > wizarding village, most people have to live in close proximity to > Muggles, probably, and need to be aware of how to convincingly keep > up appearances. While the wizard family at the far end of town may > be known as the local eccentrics, it would be wise for them to be > able to talk with their neighbors without seeming downright alien. > I think that the wizard world is constantly surrounded in magic and it becomes harder and harder for them to understand all the contraptions and stuff that muggles use(need). The best comparison I can make is when Europeans began exploring the world and came accross what they called "primitive" cultures. These cultures weren't really primative, but different. It was just a different way of life and the explores couldn't wrap they're minds around that anyone would want to live that way. I also think that as one spends more time in the wizarding world, the more they forget about what life was like in the muggle world. Not sure that made sense but if anyone wants to discuss if further we can. Serena From stbinch at actionsd.com Wed Apr 30 15:45:39 2003 From: stbinch at actionsd.com (Steve Binch) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 08:45:39 -0700 Subject: Harry living past book 7 References: <1051709268.156991.53342.m10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <003501c30f2f$8cb2bf30$0e01a8c0@ACTIONSTEEL.COM> No: HPFGUIDX 56572 On Wed, 30 Apr 2003 "Jean Gates" wrote: >I was re-reading SS today and I came across the following passage: >Chapter Sixteen Through the Trapdoor Pg 262 US Edition >"In years to come, Harry would never quite remember how he had >managed to get through his exams when he half expected Voldemort to >come bursting through the door at any momemt. >Now I know that JKR has answered questions about Harry's life after >school with the "How do you know he lives" bit. But with this >passage did she let us know that yes he does live or is she just >talking about the years between leading up to his 7th year? >It made me think and I was wondering what you thought. Keen observation. When JKR wrote book 1, she had no idea that HP would become what it has. But she did know in her head how everything would pan out. I'm quite sure Harry will live beyond book 7, but not too sure about his friends. I'm also confidant that while reading book 7, we will not be confidant he will live, because it will be so intense. -Steve From scaryscarlet at aol.com Wed Apr 30 15:28:01 2003 From: scaryscarlet at aol.com (scaryscarlet at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 11:28:01 EDT Subject: Pondering Arabella Figg Message-ID: <1ce.89c8900.2be14581@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56573 Goodness me, lets see I've read through everything *I think* & I've got a substantial bit of speculation to discuss *I hope* though I haven't heard from a list Elf yet - so I'll just have to go it alone. As I loath to just fall blindly & unannounced into anything, yes, as you've guessed I'm new (you can't see it on your monitor but I'm waving to you all right now) & I stumbled upon this little slice of heaven you all call HPfGU while surfing about for tidbits about the elusive & mysterious Arabella Figg to discuss at poker night. (My girlfriends & I have a bi-monthy Harry Poker Night where seemingly sane grown women w/graduate degrees justify discussing a children's book at great length by the presence of playing cards & margaritas.) After recovering from the orgasmic like fit of nirvana brought about by finding a Harry Potter group just for grown ups I thought I might make a stab at discussing my thoughts here. *crosses fingers* I really hope I don't make a faux pas that warrants a Howler ... worse I hope this hasn't be discussed ad naseum. Arabella Figg has had me since her broken leg. I just had a feeling she would be significant later on & good moogly for once I was right. What intrigues me is the mystery of it all, just who is she? As of the final chapters of GoF we now know she is indeed a Witch, one Dumbledore seems to trust, one who is part of the 'crowd'. (I'm assuming based on theory the 'crowd' meaning those that came together to fight Voldemort the first time around.) I myself am leaning towards Mrs Figg being something very opposite of a 'mad old lady' due to much consumption of Polyjuice Potion. (cabbage smell) I also lean towards believing she is young Mr Potter's Secret Keeper while he is with the Dursleys. Now, the wild theory I'm about to throw out is a combination of 'who is Arabella?' & a question that has been daunting me for some time... who is Harry's Godmother? We have a Best Friend/Best Man/Godfather in Sirius Black is it possible Mrs Figg could be the female counterpart? Surely Lily had a best friend at Hogwarts, surely she has a Maid of Honor, surely Harry has a Godmother? (Dare it be said that Sirius could be married or had a S.O. at the time of his incarceration) Or am I just totally off base here? Based off name theory Arabella means beautiful refuge & Figg (or Fig) means not literal - again all assumption however I'm thinking Polyjuice Potion. Godmothers are often benevolent care givers, wish granters, protectors. She was Harry's baby-sitter. Her leg broke conveniently at a time when Harry got to go out on a very rare outing, she may well also be his Secret Keeper -or something along those lines. Also there aren't many prevalent nor heroic Witches in the series (Fleur is snobby & young, Mrs Weasly is marshmallow momish, MacGonagol is stern & cross, Rita Skeeter is horrid, Hermione & Ginny still students, Rosmerta a barmaid, Trelawney a tad flaky, a lot fraudish) so it could just be my hope that one eventually crops up. My one bane w/the books is the lack of strong female characters. So this all could be wishful thinking. Anyhoo - I'd love to hear what other think about the possibility of Arabella Figg being Harry's Godmother & if not her ... just who is? Ta, Samantha [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jodel at aol.com Wed Apr 30 17:06:04 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 13:06:04 EDT Subject: Ethics and Choices (was: On Power) Message-ID: <29.3ee5c659.2be15c7c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56574 I think a Magical theory and Magical ethics course ought to be a first & second year required course like flying & broom safety. Think about it. There are bound to be differences and additional ramifications to ethics where it applies to the use of Magic. And 25% of the student body is Muggle-born. They do not have any backgroud for this. Malfoy was right about that at least; "They don't know our ways." And the kids from wizarding families could probably do with being sat down and have things explained to them in terms that make sense to an 11-year-old rather than a 3-year-old, with some of the reasons behind it. -JOdel From t.forch at mail.dk Wed Apr 30 17:08:09 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 19:08:09 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry living past book 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030430190222.00dc7b40@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 56575 At 01:43 30-04-03 +0000, jlg881 wrote: >I was re-reading SS today and I came across the following passage: > >Chapter Sixteen Through the Trapdoor Pg 262 US Edition >"In years to come, [...] >Now I know that JKR has answered questions about Harry's life after >school with the "How do you know he lives" bit. But with this >passage did she let us know that yes he does live or is she just >talking about the years between leading up to his 7th year? > >It made me think and I was wondering what you thought. I don't doubt that Harry will survive book 7, but I don't think this quotation proves it. As you say yourself, Rowling may be speaking of just the 6 next 'years to come'. However, Rowling did in the NPC Author Luncheon speak of the possibility of writing more than seven books, and she said that "Um, the only reason you'll ever see an eighth Harry Potter book is if I really, in ten years time, burn to do another one ..." which sort of implies that Harry would be around for an eighth book should she choose to write it. (The interview transcript will be made available online as soon as the proofreading has finished.) Troels From jodel at aol.com Wed Apr 30 17:07:57 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 13:07:57 EDT Subject: Is there anything in the HP world that bothers you? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56576 Is there anything in the HP world that bothers you? Yes. There is that pervasive thread of cruelty to animals that has run through the whole series. Generally told to us as the actions of the *good* people. Usually it's the twins who are the perps, (force feed a firecracker to a salamander and watch it rocket around the room, indeed. Use your little brother's pet for bludger practice...) but it isn't only them. In fact Minerva McGonagall comes across a very cold-blooded customer with her assignments of turning furniture into barnyard animals. Turning actual living rabbits into slippers. Making children turn hedgehogs into pincushions and then stick pins in them to see whether they have done it correctly. It just goes on and on. Everybody winces about the mandrakes which don't even exist, what about the hedgehogs? Sure, kids find it all just terribly funny. Yuk yuk yuk. But it isn't *really*. Or else it's a joke in very bad taste. -JOdel (As to the lycanthropy thread; isn't it obvious? Lycanthrope = lunatic.) From jodel at aol.com Wed Apr 30 17:08:10 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 13:08:10 EDT Subject: OT; disgusting self-promotion Message-ID: <3c.2ede5437.2be15cfa@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56577 This probably should have gone to the announcements list, and if so I will hope that the list elves will move it there. There is no listing of the actual e-mail handle for that part of the site in the Digest (I virtually never visit the site in person.) I've been on this list for close to a year now and have very much enjoyed taking part in the discussions. By this time I have been reading the books for five years and involved in the online community for about three, and have developed *oppinions*. I have just uploaded a collection of non-fiction essays (28 articles of various lengths) on my interpretations toward a workable (I hope) background for the Potterverse, which includes content from several of the postings that I have sent to this list, amplified and tine-tuned in reaction to the discussions. These are at the Red Hen site. http://www.redhen-publications.com It is a personal hobby site, not an actual business. There are some fanfics posted ther by authors' permission as well but it is not primarily a fiction site. The essays are in the "Comentary/At Tome" area. Fics are in the "Publications" area. IE and Netscape have no trouble with it. AOL for Aqua is, as usual, pretending that it isn't there. At least for me. It will eventually deign to show the link, but I do not know how long it will take to capitulate and do so. Older versions of AOL usually have no problem. -JOdel From grosich at nyc.rr.com Wed Apr 30 17:14:42 2003 From: grosich at nyc.rr.com (Gina Rosich) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 10:14:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is there anything in the HP world that bothers you? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030430171442.61881.qmail@web13104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56578 Steve wrote: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ingachristsuperstar" wrote: > I can't decide if this really bothers me or just assumes me, but > here goes anyway: > > ...edited... > > This makes me think of the slackers of the wizarding world, who > learn the charm to conjure sandwiches so they never have to > work ever again. > > Makes one wonder how they get all the menial, low-paying jobs > filled. > > ...edited... > > -Ing ME: Here's a thought I just had. What about transfigured food? Is it possible, for example, to transfigure a rock into a nice piece of grilled fish? Turn some twigs into asparagus and some dirt into a treacle tart to finish? Would the food taste the same? Or is it only the appearance that's transfigured and it would taste like a rock, twigs and dirt? We've seen students transfigure items into other, inedible items. We've also seen live items turn into inanimate objects (beetles into buttons, rats into cups). But never food. Gina --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From luv_lotr2 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 17:12:09 2003 From: luv_lotr2 at yahoo.com (luv_lotr2) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 17:12:09 -0000 Subject: New with a question! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56579 What a great group! And so active! I am a mom of 5 (and hubby too). My kids got me started reading HP. We are all excited for The Order of the Phoenix to get to the bookstores! I've started to re-read book 4--The Goblet of Fire--and have a question. It says in the first chapter that the Riddle family were all killed...well, at least in the Muggle's eyes. They just died for no apparent reason. Since Tom Riddle was an only child, who becomes "He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named", how is it that as Voldemort he is able to kill James and Lily Potter? Did he not actually die? Was he just petrified along with his parents? Anyone have any insight to this? Maybe there's an explanation further along in the book, that I have forgotten about! Thanks! The Other Mrs. Weasley From selene at earthlink.net Wed Apr 30 17:12:43 2003 From: selene at earthlink.net (Susan Fox-Davis) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 10:12:43 -0700 Subject: Is there anything in the HP world that bothers you? Message-ID: <3EB0040B.43776B06@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 56580 Ing asks: >Does it strike anyone else that Quiddich is not a particularly fair >sport? It seems like a lot rides (so to speak) on how fast one's >broom is - on something that is entirely out of one's control, has >nothing to do with talent, and entirely determined by how much >money one's family has. I second that emotion. There are a LOT of holes in the great sport of wizards. Like why is there only one set of players per house? No 'junior varsity' nor second string, Gryffindor had to play without any Seeker at all when Harry was in hospital. Every kid who had passed their first-year broom flying class should be out there playing Quiddich with their mates just for fun, if not actually on a team. Susan Fox-Davis selene at earthlink.net From ultimatesen at aol.com Wed Apr 30 17:30:57 2003 From: ultimatesen at aol.com (theultimatesen) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 17:30:57 -0000 Subject: Teachers and fairness (WAS Is Snape unfair with House Points? ) In-Reply-To: <20030430125813.92239.qmail@web21207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56581 lynn wrote: I remember having a teacher like Snape in school. While I was fortunate enough never to have been on the receiving end of his caustic remarks, it affected me so much that I would never answer in class and this was the only class that I received a grade below B as I was so afraid of what may happen that I never learned anything and it really hurt my enjoyment of learning. me: I also had a teacher like Snape. Ok... worse to be honest. This was in the 4th GRADE! I know what kind of impression these types of teachers leave on a person. I was no where near like Hermione until I got into college. (hand raising-know it all *grin*). I did, however, end up loathing school from then on until college. This was an every day occurance with this particular woman. I know *exactly* how Hermione feels. I don't think that it's going to effect her as much as these situations do IRL because.. that's too predictable. It brings too much of the real world into the HP series. I believe JKR is going to have Ron, Harry & ESPECIALLY Hermione get past this sort of Snape inflicted abuse triumphantly. What I don't understand is, if nothing ever gets past Dumbledore, and he knows all, then WHY is he allowing this to continue? Sen From cbdm1121 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 17:50:36 2003 From: cbdm1121 at yahoo.com (Tom Marvolo Riddle) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 17:50:36 -0000 Subject: Food and Figg Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56582 Howdy. Every so often I feel compelled to post, so here goes. First, Arabella Figg. Everybody and their mother seems to think she's been put there to keep an eye on Harry and the Dursley's and I don't buy it. My problem is this: When Hagrid first meets Harry, he's very surprised to learn that Harry has never heard of Hogwarts and has no idea who or what his parents were. Hagrid was given the Harry recovery mission specifically by Dumbledore, and I have a hard time believing Dumbledore would've left Hagrid unpreparred for such a scenario, which tells me that Dumbledore didn't know what Harry had and had not been told by the Dursley's. So if Hagrid didn't know, then Dumbledore didn't know, then Arabella Figg didn't know (or wasn't telling). Had she been set up as his watchdog, so to speak, it's reasonable to expect that Dumbledore would've expected periodical reprts on Harry's well being. Such reports probably would've included items like "he thinks his mom dies in a car crash." Since Dumbledore obviously got no such reports, it's hard to accept that Figg was a spy for him or a protector for Harry in as big of a role as what has been theorized. She does have a huge role to play in this, I just don't think that protector is that role. As for food conjuring, I recently read a book called the Wizard of Earthsea, by Ursula leGuin. Not a bad book, really, and there's a discussion of food conjuring, or indeed, any conjuring that I thought might apply here, even if it's not HP canon. When a wizard conjures food, he is conjuring a temporary illusion. It may fool all the senses, but once eaten will still leave the consumer hungry. If this theory holds true in the HP universe, then magical conjuring is nothing more than an illusion, which is why you can't magic textbooks, food, clothing, etc. out of thin air. It would all be temporary. So when Mrs. Weasley, or the house elves, or anybody, is making food appear, they are making it appear from somewhere, not nowhere. Enough of me, I'll go back to lurking with my 75+ e-mails a day from this group. Zach From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Wed Apr 30 18:14:30 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 14:14:30 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] New with a question! References: Message-ID: <000701c30f44$584f9870$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56583 The Other Mrs. Weasley wrote: > What a great group! And so active! I am a mom of 5 (and hubby too). > My kids got me started reading HP. We are all excited for The Order > of the Phoenix to get to the bookstores! Welcome! You'll love it here :) > It says in the first chapter that the Riddle family were all > killed...well, at least in the Muggle's eyes. They just died for no > apparent reason. Since Tom Riddle was an only child, who > becomes "He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named", how is it that as Voldemort he > is able to kill James and Lily Potter? Did he not actually die? > Was he just petrified along with his parents? Anyone have any > insight to this? Maybe there's an explanation further along in the > book, that I have forgotten about! I was confused about this section when i first read it also. But Tom Riddle is actually the one who killed them all. The set of parents killed were actually Tom's GRANDparents. And the son who was killed was Tom's Muggle father. Hope that helps :) ~Katy~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 18:21:31 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 18:21:31 -0000 Subject: Death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56584 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jlg881" wrote: > > > I agree with Brittany that it will be someone important in Harry's > life, but not very important to the story line. I think it will be > Hedwig who will die. ...edited... Writing and reading about > her death would be a terrible experience for anyone. Especially > those of us who have lost a beloved pet before. > > Jean bboy_mn: Any thoughts on who might kill Hedwig? I could see Draco doing it as his mean nasty rotten tricks escalate with the increased confidence he gains from knowing Voldemort is back. I see the death of Hedwig as an incredably horrible experience for Harry. Friends come and go with the mood, and the seasons, but Hedwig is always there, and while the two of them may have their ups and downs, Hedwig and Harry are truly bonded together. Hedwig is the one friend that truly belongs to Harry, and is probably the closest thing he has to family. Compound that with Draco being responsible for Hedwigs death and you have set the scene for Harry and Draco's own private personal and ever more dangerous war. Just a thought. bboy_mn From annemehr at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 18:21:39 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 18:21:39 -0000 Subject: OOP?:Possible "fan" quote broken link? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56585 First of all, I did miss about a week and a half of HPFGU about the time people were searching for the "death of a fan" quote, so I apologise if someone has posted this and I missed it. I was trolling yahoo for JKR interviews and came across this intriguing quote from a student newspaper from The American Community School of Abu Dhabi. The link is: http://www.acs.sch.ae/Quill/archive/December02/content/features/order_ of_the_phoenix.html The relevant paragraph is: So what can we expect from this much-awaited book? In her interview with CNN, Rowling revealed the book as the longest of the series. She also said we would learn more about Lily Potter, Harry's muggle-born mother, and that a fan of Harry's would die. This `fan' is supposedly a relatively main character, and Rowling confessed that it was difficult for her to write the death scene. Remus Lupin, the Defence Against the Dark Arts teacher in The Prisoner of Azkaban, will also be back in the game, as will Arabella Figg, the Dursley's next door neighbor and friend of Harry's parents. We will also learn, says Rowling, why some wizards and witches come back as ghosts. Well! The only CNN interview that I can find is from the Larry King Live show of 10/20/2000, which definitely does *not* cover the information quoted above. However, there is a short article of 10/21/1999 which quotes JKR. It almost seems to be *about* an interview with her. The link for the short article is: http://www.cnn.com/books/news/9910/21/rowling.intvu There is nothing new here, either, BUT, next to it is a video link that looks like it would be for the full interview. Unfortunately, either it is a dead link, or my computer/software can't handle it. Has anyone else tried this? There seems to be no transcript, either. Obviously, an interview from 1999 can NOT be the one referred to by the school newspaper above, since the author of the article knows that OoP will be the longest of the series, which is much more recent information. However, it is the only trace of a CNN interview I can find other than the Larry King transcript, and I mention it here as a possible source of other HP information. It also makes me wonder if there isn't *another* Rowling interview, which the school reporter did in fact read about or watch on CNN. Are there any detective-minded listees among you that can take this any further? Annemehr who notes that, in her trolling for interviews, she has also never come across any that refer to Harry learning a lot more about Lily in book 5, and she's sure she had read that at some point in the past as well. Are we losing interviews by cyber-death? From jodel at aol.com Wed Apr 30 16:54:07 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 12:54:07 EDT Subject: Ethics and Choices (was: On Power) Message-ID: <90.364bf684.2be159af@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56586 I think a Magical theory and Magical ethics course ought to be a first & second year required course like flying & broom safety. Think about it. There are bound to be differences and additional ramifications to ethics where it applies to the use of Magic. And 25% of the student body is Muggle-born. They do not have any backgroud for this. Malfoy was right about that at least; "They don't know our ways." And the kids from wizarding families could probably do with being sat down and have things explained to them in terms that make sense to an 11-year-old rather than a 3-year-old, with some of the reasons behind it. -JOdel From emmy_g50 at hotmail.com Wed Apr 30 16:50:12 2003 From: emmy_g50 at hotmail.com (Emily Grace Blackstone) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 16:50:12 +0000 Subject: Question about Hogwarts Express Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56587 Hi there! Kathryn wrote: Hogwarts Express - In CoS when Snape is reading out the sightings of Ron and Harry in the Flying Ford Anglia he reads one out from Norfolk, which strikes me as an odd place for the car to be flying over since it's following the train. Lincolnshire I could understand but Norfolk is a little too far east for a train which is going north from London. Me: I have very little knowledge of British geography, but it seems to me that ALL of the Hogwarts children can't possibly go to London to catch the Hogwarts Express. So, I imagine that 1) there's more than one train that all leave from various locations and 2) the London train may make stops periodically on the way up. Now there's no canon for this, it just seems logical to me that the train would stop after a certain point rather than making kids who live in the north go all the way down to London, just to go back up again. Why not just pick them up, even if it is a little out of the way? Also, the trip seems to take all day. I have no clue about how long a train ride up basically the extent of England would take, but as we have seen with the Knight Bus, in the WW, that doesn't really matter, they can just skip around to wherever they want. Any thoughts? egbstone-- an emerging ex-lurker >From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 2736 >Date: 29 Apr 2003 20:16:58 -0000 > >________________________________________________________________________ > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From patgruenke at cloudnet.com Wed Apr 30 15:19:11 2003 From: patgruenke at cloudnet.com (Pat and Jim Gruenke) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 10:19:11 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dudley *spoilers* Message-ID: <3EAFE96F.889D5CF7@cloudnet.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56588 Rona Patterson wrote: > I think that when > Dudley was young (under 1) he threw a tantrum and did some unfocused > magic and Petunia recognized the signs of magic, and in order to > stop the magic she needed to give into every sob/scream that Dudley > produced. > My take: I must respectfully disagree that Dudley did some unfocused magic as a child. If Neville Longbottom got a letter from Hogwarts with only one instance of "forced magic", surely Dudders would have gotten one, too. Of course, we can argue that he did, it wasn't talked about in the book, and Dudley just didn't get sent to Hogwarts. BUT, I don't think that Vernon and Petunia would have been as shocked as they were when Harry got his letter had Dudley gotten one also. OTOH, I *love* the idea of Dudley developing some magical power later in life! If for nothing else just to rub Vernon and Petunia's nose in it. Plus, putting Dudley in Harry's world would give Dudley a taste of his own medicine. Can you imagine Harry's cousin the mudblood in Slytherin House??? oooh, delightful revenge! Pat [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From scaryscarlet at aol.com Wed Apr 30 18:08:36 2003 From: scaryscarlet at aol.com (scaryscarlet at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 14:08:36 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Food and Figg Message-ID: <114.22a12671.2be16b24@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56589 Zach, cbdm1121 at yahoo.com writes: > Hagrid was given the Harry recovery mission specifically by Dumbledore, and > I have a hard time believing Dumbledore would've left Hagrid unpreparred > for such a scenario, which tells me that Dumbledore didn't know what Harry > had and had not been told by the Dursley's. So if Hagrid didn't know, then > Dumbledore didn't know, then Arabella Figg didn't know (or wasn't telling). > Had she been set up as his watchdog, so to speak, it's reasonable to > expect that Dumbledore would've expected periodical reprts on Harry's well > being. Such reports probably would've included items like "he thinks his > mom dies in a car crash." > Okay, I can see your point :). The only rebuttal I can think of is this & its purely based on my personal interpretation of Dumbledore. Hagrid has very loose lips & perhaps telling Hagrid anything more then he *absolutely* needed to know (like it might be hard to get him/hasn't gotten his letters/he's out to sea/etc) would run the risk of Hagrid slipping Harry way too much information before Dumbledore was ready for him to hear it. ~Samantha "Beware the man of the single books" - Bertrand Russell [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From manawydan at ntlworld.com Wed Apr 30 18:35:23 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 19:35:23 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizards and muggles References: <1051722553.8714.7816.m15@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <004401c30f47$4312b520$d04d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 56590 Serena wrote: >I think that the wizard world is constantly surrounded in magic and >it becomes harder and harder for them to understand all the >contraptions and stuff that muggles use(need). The best comparison I >can make is when Europeans began exploring the world and came accross >what they called "primitive" cultures. These cultures weren't really >primative, but different. It was just a different way of life and >the explores couldn't wrap they're minds around that anyone would >want to live that way. A recent posting compared the WW to "Chinatown" in our world. Because wizards can get around to other WW locations without having to go through the muggles in between, they certainly can live their lives completely ignorant of how muggles live. Also, if someone comes from the muggle to the wizard world at a young age, they could easily lose touch if they chose to. And because wizards' life spans are much longer, the muggle world would have changed quite dramatically while they were out of it. But I think it goes further than this. Muggle world runs on technology. Wizard world runs on magic. There's not really any common territory. Arthur Weasley is fascinated by technology the way some muggles are fascinated by magic, and for the same reasons: neither can be easily described or understood in terms of the other. If you're an ordinary wizard in the street, not very curious about muggles, I can quite understand the incomprehension at a world run on technology. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From jrober4 at bellsouth.net Wed Apr 30 16:38:27 2003 From: jrober4 at bellsouth.net (jrober4 at bellsouth.net) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 12:38:27 -0400 Subject: A question about the new book Message-ID: <008601c30f36$ee4b0390$4da2d6d1@nonexuzodpqjy5> No: HPFGUIDX 56591 A friend of my managers is of the belief that there is going to be *both* a children's version and an adult version of OotP. Has anyone here heard anything about this??? (If this has been discussed before, and I missed it, I apologize.) Judy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From innermurk at catlover.com Wed Apr 30 18:07:21 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 18:07:21 -0000 Subject: New with a question! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56592 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "luv_lotr2" wrote: > It says in the first chapter that the Riddle family were all > killed...well, at least in the Muggle's eyes. They just died for no > apparent reason. Since Tom Riddle was an only child, who > becomes "He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named", how is it that as Voldemort he > is able to kill James and Lily Potter? Did he not actually die? > Was he just petrified along with his parents? Anyone have any > insight to this? Maybe there's an explanation further along in the > book, that I have forgotten about! > > Thanks! The Riddles that were in the first chapter are Voldemort's Father and Grandparents. Voldemort is the dark haired teen-age boy that Frank sees around the house. He Avada Kedavra'd his dear ol dad and grandparents. Remember, Voldemort's mum named him after his dad. That's why he's referred to as Tom Riddle. A bit confusing at first, but it makes sense once you think about it. Innermurk From the_fox01 at hotmail.com Wed Apr 30 18:16:23 2003 From: the_fox01 at hotmail.com (The Fox) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 14:16:23 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] New with a question! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56593 From: "luv_lotr2" >It says in the first chapter that the Riddle family were all killed...well, >at least in the Muggle's eyes. They just died for no apparent reason. >Since Tom Riddle was an only child, who becomes >"He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named", how is it that as Voldemort he is able to kill >James and Lily Potter? Did he not actually die? Was he just petrified >along with his parents? The three dead people were Tom Riddle the elder -- i.e. Voldemort's father, who left his wife and son when he discovered she was a witch -- and *his* parents, i.e., Voldemort's grandparents. All three were Muggles. It was Tom Marvolo Riddle, Lord Voldemort, who killed them. Fox ........................ "... I think I'd like it if he *could* be wicked and *wouldn't." -- Anne of the Island ... Come on, Nature Just because I don't feel weak Don't mean I feel so strong. -- the Proclaimers .............................. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From the_fox01 at hotmail.com Wed Apr 30 16:08:47 2003 From: the_fox01 at hotmail.com (The Fox) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 12:08:47 -0400 Subject: Thin air grows on trees (was: what bothers us about the HP world) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56594 From: "Steve" >That which is conjured is not permanent. I was made from nothing and in a >short (although greatly veriable) period of time it returns to nothing. How do we know this? The only thing that I can recall disappearing after a period of time is leprechaun gold; we don't really know anything about conjuring things, do we? The food that magically appears on the plates in the Great Hall is teleported up from the kitchens -- fine, it's not conjured. But the house-elves cook and prepare and place the stuff on parallel tables in the kitchen underneath the Great Hall; surely there's not a mini-kitchen underneath wherever the boys are when Dumbledore magically presents them with sandwiches and juice. How do we know he didn't conjure those? And on what basis do we therefore conclude that Molly can't conjure an au gratin sauce with her wand? Fox ........................ "... I think I'd like it if he *could* be wicked and *wouldn't." -- Anne of the Island ... Come on, Nature Just because I don't feel weak Don't mean I feel so strong. -- the Proclaimers .............................. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From jodel at aol.com Wed Apr 30 17:08:03 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 13:08:03 EDT Subject: Ethics and Choices (was: On Power) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56595 I think a Magical theory and Magical ethics course ought to be a first & second year required course like flying & broom safety. Think about it. There are bound to be differences and additional ramifications to ethics where it applies to the use of Magic. And 25% of the student body is Muggle-born. They do not have any backgroud for this. Malfoy was right about that at least; "They don't know our ways." And the kids from wizarding families could probably do with being sat down and have things explained to them in terms that make sense to an 11-year-old rather than a 3-year-old, with some of the reasons behind it. -JOdel From luv_lotr2 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 18:17:54 2003 From: luv_lotr2 at yahoo.com (luv_lotr2) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 18:17:54 -0000 Subject: Riddle And His Grandparents (WAS New with a question!) In-Reply-To: <000701c30f44$584f9870$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56596 Katy wrote: > I was confused about this section when i first read it also. But >Tom Riddle is actually the one who killed them all. The set of >parents killed were actually Tom's GRANDparents. And the son who was >killed was Tom's Muggle father. Hope that helps :) > Thanks! But, where did you read that? Does it come in a later chapter? **thumbing through book** The Other Mrs. Weasley From innermurk at catlover.com Wed Apr 30 17:17:52 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 17:17:52 -0000 Subject: H/Hr and the Boggart (WAS: Teachers and fairness) In-Reply-To: <75.febb0f1.2be129c7@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56597 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, JessaDrow at a... wrote: > In a message dated 4/30/03 9:23:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > ladilyndi at y... writes: > > > think Lupin never > > intended to let Harry face the Boggart, for the > > reason he stated. He asked a question and > > Hermione answered. Lupin specifically asks Harry > > the second question. I think that whichever > > student had answered the first question would not > > have been given an opportunity to face the > > Boggart so that Harry would not end up being the > > only one who didn't face the Boggart. However, > > Lupin does include both the student and Harry by > > giving them the same points for answering as he > > gave those who faced the Boggart. However, when > > the Boggart ends up rolling in front of Harry as > > the legless spider, it became obvious he didn't > > want Harry facing the Boggart. I always thought that Hermione might've gotten a chance to face the boggart (even though she did ask the question) except that she was standing behind Harry. Maybe Lupin hoped to finish the boggart off before they got that far down the line, but since it rolled over in front of Harry he (thought he) had to intervene. I never got that he intended to punish Hermione at all. He tends to focus on positive things, and to subtly teach his students right from wrong in so doing. That is why he is one of my favorite characters. Because despite all he's suffered, he hasn't turned bitter, and he doesn't lash out at the world around him. He's the kind of person I would want to teach my children (if I had any) Innermurk From patgruenke at cloudnet.com Wed Apr 30 17:33:29 2003 From: patgruenke at cloudnet.com (Pat and Jim Gruenke) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 12:33:29 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Pondering Arabella Figg Message-ID: <3EB008E9.46D0EB67@cloudnet.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56598 scaryscarlet (Samantha) wrote: > I also lean > towards believing she is young Mr Potter's Secret Keeper while he is with the > Dursleys. > My two knuts: I don't know about Secret Keeper, but I think she is his magical guardian. Perhaps she's even related to him on the Potter side. Part of the "ancient magic" that protects him while he's with his relatives? He would be protected at her house, too. And is Harry protected while he's at school because Dudley is there??? How ironic would THAT be! Why did the Dursleys trust Mrs. Figg, and no one else, to watch Harry? This is something that's puzzled me for a long time. Surely they could have hired a local teen-ager to watch Harry when they went to the zoo. > We have a Best Friend/Best Man/Godfather in Sirius > Black is it possible Mrs Figg could be the female counterpart? Surely Lily > had a best friend at Hogwarts, surely she has a Maid of Honor, surely Harry > has a Godmother? > Me again-- Something else that's bothered me for a long time! Why is Harry more obsessed with his father than his mother? Rather Star Wars-ish there... I'm thinking we can rule out Petunia as godmother or maid of honor!!! Question for the Brits on the board-- would it be unusual for a child to have only one godparent? Two is the norm here in the US. > My girlfriends & I have a bi-monthy Harry Poker Night where > seemingly sane grown women w/graduate degrees justify discussing a children's > book at great length by the presence of playing cards & margaritas. > Can I come, too??? I'm really bad at poker... ;-) My husband just "doesn't get" my obsession with these books. Of course, I don't get his obsession with wilderness camping either... Welcome to the board! It's a lot of fun. Pat [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From the_fox01 at hotmail.com Wed Apr 30 16:29:09 2003 From: the_fox01 at hotmail.com (The Fox) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 12:29:09 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] fairness of Quiddich (WAS: Is the anything that bothers you Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56599 From: "ingachristsuperstar" >if Cho and Harry saw the snitch at the same time, all Harry would have to >do is go after it. As long as he did that, and it came down to a race for >the snitch, he would win, no matter how good a flyer Cho is. Not so. It's a combination of the flyer and the broom, just as the Tour de France is a combination of the rider and the bicyle. (Or any NASCAR event is a combination of the driver and the car. Or any horse race is a combination of the jockey and the horse. Or anything other than running, really, is a combination of the individual and the equipment, and even that's debatable, because different runners have different *shoes.*) Cho is a very good flyer on a decent broom; Harry is a very good flyer on an excellent broom. And still, she gives him a run for his money. If Cho were a very good flyer on a decent broom and Harry were a merely adequate flyer on an excellent broom, who knows how it would have turned out? A player's skill, at any sport, is as much a matter of how she *uses* the equipment she's got as it is a matter of what she does independently of that equipment (or what the equipment is). >My point is not that Quiddich is _inherently_ unfair. Its just that it may >be _more_ fair if they played on standard issue brooms rather than allowing >some to be inherently faster than others. Or -- okay, I think the brooms aren't *inherently* faster, is what I'm saying. The Firebolt has a greater *potential* speed than the Whatever that Cho flies, but who's to say all the brooms fly at maximum speed at all times? And even on the same brooms, different players have different levels of success -- you want to put Harry Potter and Aidan Lynch, both of whom fly Firebolts, up against each other? :-) (And "Quidditch" has a "t" in it. [g]) Fox ........................ "... I think I'd like it if he *could* be wicked and *wouldn't." -- Anne of the Island ... Come on, Nature Just because I don't feel weak Don't mean I feel so strong. -- the Proclaimers .............................. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From cristina_angelo at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 18:59:35 2003 From: cristina_angelo at yahoo.com (Cristina Rebelo Angelo) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 20:59:35 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Food and Figg In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56600 > When a wizard conjures food, he is conjuring a temporary > illusion. It may fool all the senses, but once eaten will still > leave the consumer hungry. If this theory holds true in the HP > universe, then magical conjuring is nothing more than an > illusion, which is why you can't magic textbooks, food, clothing, > etc. out of thin air. It would all be temporary. So when Mrs. > Weasley, or the house elves, or anybody, is making food appear, > they are making it appear from somewhere, not nowhere. > > > Zach Me: In Hogwarts, the food is conjured up from the kitchen, where the elves are busy most of the time preparing it. I believe this has been mentioned either about a month ago, or in the H-files. Actually, I remember wondering why didn't the Weasleys conjure up stuff, and maybe they could, by stealing it somewhere - but they're just not that kind of people... And the one image that has always stuck to my mind is that of Mrs. W angry at the twins, waving her wand, and making the potatoes unpeel themselves so fast she has to go fish for them all over the kitchen (GoF, because of the sweet they 'forgot' behind at the Dursleys...) She doesn't conjure them up, she uses magic to prepare them... Also, why don't they conjure away the pesty little creatures in their garden? Because it's funnier to throw them away? (Can imagine the twins stopping Mr. W from waving them away with his wand, just so they can have a bit of sport and fun :-) ************************** Cristina Rebelo ngelo Any attached file not mentioned in the body of the message may be a virus; if present, delete it for the sake of your computer, and inform the sender. Thank you. "Quand on n'a que l'amour/ Pour tracer un chemin/ Et forcer le destin/ A chaque carrefour Quand on n'a que l'amour/ Pour parler aux canons/ Et rien qu'une chanson/ Pour coinvancre un tambour Alors sans avoir rien/ Que la force d'aimer/ Nous aurons dans nos mains/ Amis le monde entier" J.Brel 1956 ICQ 106.255.886 HPGCv1 a31 e++ x+ -- z+++ A27 Rhp HPa S+++ Mo HaP++ HG++ RW++ AD++ RH+++ VK& NhN& SB& DM--- O++ F sfD From aesob at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 19:56:05 2003 From: aesob at yahoo.com (Alex) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 19:56:05 -0000 Subject: A question about the new book In-Reply-To: <008601c30f36$ee4b0390$4da2d6d1@nonexuzodpqjy5> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56601 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, wrote: > A friend of my managers is of the belief that there is going to be *both* a children's version and an adult version of OotP. Has anyone here heard anything about this??? (If this has been discussed before, and I missed it, I apologize.) > > Judy Just as with the previous books, Bloomsbury, the UK publisher is distributing two versions of the COVER (the CONTENT will be exactly the same), but there's only one US version (published by Scholastic). If you want to see the different covers, they're on most of the HP fan sites, or check out Amazon.com (www.amazon.co.uk) & (www.amazon.com)... ~~aesob From patricia at obscure.org Wed Apr 30 18:29:31 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 14:29:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is there anything in the HP world that bothers you? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56602 On Wed, 30 Apr 2003, Serena Moonsilver wrote: > I think that the wizard world is constantly surrounded in magic and > it becomes harder and harder for them to understand all the > contraptions and stuff that muggles use(need). The best comparison I > can make is when Europeans began exploring the world and came accross > what they called "primitive" cultures. These cultures weren't really > primative, but different. It was just a different way of life and > the explores couldn't wrap they're minds around that anyone would > want to live that way. > > I also think that as one spends more time in the wizarding world, the > more they forget about what life was like in the muggle world. Even for muggle-born wizards, I think it goes beyond just forgetting what it's like in the muggle world. The muggle world changes *fast* -- much faster than the wizard world seems to. 20 years ago VHS recorders were cutting edge technology, but who buys a new VCR now? The standard has rapidly shifted to DVDs. How many people had PDAs 5 years ago, and how many of those people can't live without their Palms now? Fashion changes just as fast. If Lily Potter were still alive and tried walking through London in clothes that were at the height of fashion when she entered Hogwarts (early '70s), she'd be a laughing stock. If a muggle-born witch or wizard only interacts with the muggle world a few times a year when they visit their family, it's no wonder they have trouble keeping up. Imagine how much harder it would be for a pureblood who has never had any intensive interaction with muggle ways. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From manawydan at ntlworld.com Wed Apr 30 18:00:32 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 19:00:32 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] No justice References: <1051647418.9355.62367.m7@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001501c30f42$64ecbb00$d04d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 56603 Bill wrote> >But the thing that really bothered me was the entire 'justice >system', for lack of a better word. >First of all, the simple *existence* of a place like Azkaban. The >Second, the ease that people are thrown into Azkaban, without trial. >This fits in with the larger picture, actually. Look at how Hagrid >was expelled from Hogwarts as a student, although any proper It's certainly a sinister picture. The fact that the aurors were given the power to use unforgivable spells is another example. It appears very strongly that "justice" in the WW is arbitrary and things like the "rule of law" that we are familiar with just don't exist there. But it also fits (I think) with the kind of world that JKR has drawn. In a bureaucracy, bureaucratic justice, arbitrary, authoritarian, unchallengeable, is the way that justice would be. In a society where the only apparent executive check on the bureaucracy is a congress of wizards, the only form of hearing would naturally be the kind of tribunal we saw in the pensieve. Although we only get glimpses of the government of the WW, it's one of the things that fascinates me: much darker and more threatening than the "cosier" aspects like the pictures of home life at the Burrow, Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From william.truderung at sympatico.ca Wed Apr 30 18:28:51 2003 From: william.truderung at sympatico.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 18:28:51 -0000 Subject: You are in charge of Hogwarts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56604 So Voldemort had been defeated, and celebrations are underway. Tragically, Albus Dumbledore chokes to death on a Lemon Drop during the festivities. The Deputy Headmistress, Prof. McGonnagall, has run off to the South Pacific with Madam Hooch. A desperate Ministry of Magic turns to YOU and asks you to take over at Hogwarts. They tell you that you have complete freedom to make any changes you deem necessary, and funding to do so. You accept the offer. What do you do? ****** These are my current thoughts. Hogwarts is the only magical higher- education facility in Great Britain. I assume that anybody wishing to continue their studies must either become apprentice to a Master in their field, go overseas to a higher-level institution (if any exist), or devise a program of self-study. The first change I would make at Hogwarts would be to allow for additional education for those who want it. Basically, Hogwarts would offer a standard 7-year `core block' of subjects, with additional subjects for those who want them, and who qualify. The additional subjects would not be restricted to students currently taking the `core block', although they would be welcome, and expected, to join, but also `graduate students' and adults wanting to upgrade their skills. I thought about abolishing the House system, but despite its flaws, it is still a cheap, easy method of controlling the younger students' behavior (with the use of House points as both punishment and reward). I wil be going with the evidence from the books, that there are about 40 students in Harry's year. This year is probably somewhat reduced, due to the effects of the first Voldemort war, and a typical class may be in the range of 50-60 students per year. In order to reduce teacher workload, all classes in the `core block', except Physical Education, would be shared between two Houses, with 20-30 students per class. Physical Education classes would combine all four Houses ? as this would be a mandatory, daily class, 7 years means 7 time- slots per day, even if all four classes are combined. How many potential classes per week would there be? The answer is set by the Physical Education classes: 7 years, 5 days a week, equals 35 classes per week. Note that nobody is expected to take this number of classes ? the `core block' consists of 26 classes per week. Here is my personal `core block': ****** Physical Education (5 classes per week) Right now, there is no physical training at Hogwarts other than Quidditch. One class each day would be devoted to fitness exercises and sports. Critical Thinking (1 class per week) This is a topic that is sadly ignored in the wizarding world. This would be devoted to logic, weighing of evidence, probability in daily life, how to do research ? in short, how to think for yourself and judge whatever you hear or read for its accuracy and importance. Ethics (1 class per week) Another sadly lacking topic. This would cover subjects ranging from the philisophical basis of ethical systems, through to social networks and personal responsibility. Writing Skills (1 class per week) Starting with penmanship and grammar, and then composition. In higher years, this would include business writing, etc. Mathematics (2 classes per week) Science (2 classes per week) Geography (1 class per week) Muggle History (2 classes per week) Muggle Literature (1 class per week) These cover much the same ground as the same general courses in the Muggle world. Muggle Daily Life (2 classes per week) All about how to live in the Muggle world. Magical Theory (1 class per week) The relationship between various branches of magic, and how and why it works. Potions (2 classes per week) The two classes would be consecutive, in order to allow time for setting up the equipment, brew the `potion of the week', and clean up afterwards. Charms (3 classes per week) Everything to do with using a wand. History of Wizarding World (1 class per week) Not just Goblin rebellions, but the entire development of wizarding society throughout the world, and its relations with Muggles and with other magical beings and creatures. Wizarding Daily Life (2 classes per week) Covers everything from broom-flying, to household cleaning charms, to dealing with the Ministry of Magic. ****** In addition, there would be a large number of elective subjects. I do not have a full list, as there are simply too many choices of subject. Among the ones that I thought of are: Various advanced courses. (Mathematics, Science, Potions, Charms, etc.) They would be more specialised sub-topics of the general courses, in the same way as in the Muggle world, so that Calculus is a sub-topic of Mathematics, Transfiguration is a sub-topic of Charms, Healing Potions is a sub-topic of Potions, etc. This does not mean that they are not covered in the general courses, but simply that the advanced courses are much more in-depth. Additional subjects that are not covered in the `core block', such as Latin, Self-defence (Muggle and Wizarding), Arithmancy, etc. I would imagine that each elective would have a list of prerequisites that are needed in order to take it ? or possibly simply a written test of the basic knowledge base required. The students would be able to take up to 9 elective classes (some courses counting as more than one class per week), although I doubt that many would. Non-Hogwarts students would be able to take elective subjects, both for continuing education and for graduate studies, so Hogwarts would be a combined `high school' and `university'. Many of the Professors would have both teaching and research roles. ****** I welcome any comments, and if anybody has their own ideas about running Hogwarts, please feel free to share them. Bill From tammy at mauswerks.net Wed Apr 30 20:18:56 2003 From: tammy at mauswerks.net (Tammy Rizzo) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 16:18:56 -0400 Subject: Troubles with the word, 'conjure'? Message-ID: <3EAFF770.7813.B15C356@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 56605 Okay, there have been several things said and questions raised this last day or so about wizards conjuring food and things, and from where does it come, and there seems to be some small confusion as to where in canon it says conjured items are temporary. I don't know -- I'm not as well-read as some on this list, after all, and I never got my little piece of sheepskin to say I are smart, but maybe I can help clear up some of this confusion. IIRC, it doesn't say anywhere in canon that conjured items are temporary. JKR probably didn't feel the need to explain that conjured items are temporary, because the very word, 'conjure', has a very long, historical association with temporary things. Conjured items have, throughout a vast majority of fantasy literature through the ages, been impermanent, doomed to vanish back into the thin air from which they were created. Conjured items have almost always been illusions, though often illusions with weight, texture, taste, etc. It's practically a given in fantasy literature that things conjured will soon disappear as if they had never been there in the first place. I suppose it would have been nice if we'd overheard someone explaining the difference to Harry between things conjured out of thin air and things summoned from an actual place. Heck, it might even have happened in an earlier draft and been cut in the editorial process, because, well, *everyone knows* that conjured things just aren't permanent. The trouble is that, well, apparently, NOT everyone 'knows' this. Maybe some HP readers have never really delved into the depths of fantasy literature before meeting Harry, and therefore don't come to the WW with the same general understandings of those more immersed in the genre? I suppose it would be something like using 'hyperspace' in a SF story. Almost anyone who's dabbled even a little bit with reading SF has come across the word, 'hyperspace'. It's become a given concept in SF literature, as an end run around the (so far as we know and understand at this point in our explorations of physics) immuteable laws concerning travel at the speed of light. Most SF writers don't even bother explaining 'hyperspace' -- why should they? It's been explained so many times before, after all. The same with conjuring, here. It's been used so often in other things, and explained here and there in other works, myths, legends, etc. Why should Jo have felt the need to explain such a 'well-known' concept? I seriously doubt she ever had any inkling that so many people would be drawn into her WW who had never really been exposed to the fantasy genre enough to absorb the generally-accepted words ad phrases. Perhaps that's an oversight that will be addressed in future books, as she addressed the pronunciation of Hermione, or perhaps not, as new fantasy readers, tired of waiting for OotP, begin to explore other fantasy works and learn more of the genre-specific terms on their own. Anyway, that's my two knuts. I hope this might have helped a little bit? *** Tammy tammy at mauswerks.net From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 20:21:00 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 20:21:00 -0000 Subject: New with a question! In-Reply-To: <000701c30f44$584f9870$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56606 > Katy wrote: > > I was confused about this section when i first read it also. But > >Tom Riddle is actually the one who killed them all. The set of > >parents killed were actually Tom's GRANDparents. And the son who > > was killed was Tom's Muggle father. Hope that helps :) "luv_lotr2" wrote: > Thanks! But, where did you read that? Does it come in a later > chapter? No, it's all right there in the first two pages of GoF. First, it was supposed to have happened fifty years earlier. Fifty years before Harry was ending his third year it was 1944 or possibly 1945, depending on whether 'fifty years' is exact or a rough figure. Tom M. Riddle was a rather young man at that time. The bodies were discovered by a maid "on a fine summer's morning," so Tom M. Riddle probably wasn't in school at the time, very conveniently. We find out also that "Elderly Mr and Mrs Riddle had been rich, snobbish and rude, and their grown-up son, Tom, had been even more so." We know from CoS that the Tom Riddle who became Voldemort was born of a witch mother who died when he was an infant, leading him to be raised in a Muggle orphanage. His father repudiated his mother when he learned she was a witch, so the 'elderly' Mr and Mrs Riddle cannot be Tom Marvolo Riddle's parents, they must be his grandparents, and their 'grown-up' son--a term more likely to be used for someone well beyond the age of seventeen or eighteen--is his father. (Given the way his father behaved toward his mother, I think that some of the less-savory elements of Tom M. Riddle's character probably come from his dad, not the Slytherin-derived side of the family, but I digress.) On the day of the murders, Frank Bryce told the police that "the only person he had seen near the house on the day of the Riddles' deaths had been a teenage boy, a stranger, dark-haired and pale." This is clearly young Tom Riddle, murderer of his Muggle relatives. (The police think Frank made him up.) The Other Mrs. Weasley wrote: > > Was he just petrified along with his parents? Anyone have any > > insight to this? It is highly unlikely that the Riddles were petrified, IMO. Dumbledore was able to determine that the petrified students who had seen reflections of the basilisk were still alive. It is far more likely that they were all killed with Avada Kedavra. The Riddles are described as being in'perfect health--apart from the fact that they were all dead.' And the maid had said, 'Lying there with their eyes wide open! Cold as ice!' After Cedric is killed with Avada Kedavra, 'Harry stared into Cedric's face, at his open grey eyes, blank and expressionless as the windows of a deserted house.' The open eyes seem to be pointing at the killing curse, not petrifaction. (The description of the murders at the beginning seems to me to be foreshadowing for Cedric's murder, in fact.) Using the killing curse would be relatively simple for a young ever- so-evil wizard like Riddle to pull off, while carting a basilisk to Little Hangleton would be unnecessary and unwieldy. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From emeleel at juno.com Wed Apr 30 20:04:54 2003 From: emeleel at juno.com (Melanie L Ellis) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 15:04:54 -0500 Subject: Is there anything in the HP world that bothers you?... And Neville Message-ID: <20030430.150455.-1014155.0.emeleel@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56607 Thanks for the replies on the Mandrakes. I realize JKR was just playing off the folklore of the mandrakes (I had looked it up, and read basically what was posted here, that the roots look human and they were thought to make noises.) but I still say she made them sound too realistic. As one poster said (sorry, I forget who) all it would have taken is one or two sentences in Hermoine's explanation of them to set the tone for them *not* being real, living beings. Something along the lines of, "Mandrakes are a magical plant who resemble humans in their appearance and life cycle, and whose properties are.....". Sure, it's a small extra mouthful, but coming out of Hermoine, wouldn't sound out of place at all! I think JKR probably just got carried away with her descriptive version of a "play on words" and didn't stop to think about how it *really* sounds when you read it closely. Now, about Neville. I think the poor boy is a much more powerful wizard than anyone believes him to be. I think he's just *scared* to be anything more than the mediocre bumbler that he is. Why? Would YOU want to be a full-out wizard if your parents had been reduced to simpering mental patients because they were tortured by fellow wizards? We know that his Gran takes him to see his parents regularly, so he knows just exactly what happened. I think that subconciously, he's afraid that if he develops more than a minimal amount of power, he just might end up in the same position for some baddie to come after him. So he does terribly at the powerful magic stuff, and is much better in the "safe" stuff like Herbology. I think something will turn him around at some point, though, and he will come to realize that *nobody* is safe when evil is on the loose, and it's better to be prepared and able to stand and fight than to cower and hope that the bad guys don't notice you. Melanie Ellis Alabama Homeschool Message Board http://pub77.ezboard.com/balabamahomeschoolmessageboard ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From mkirkham at utk.edu Wed Apr 30 20:18:40 2003 From: mkirkham at utk.edu (Melanie Kirkham) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 16:18:40 -0400 Subject: Pondering Arabell Figg Message-ID: <3EB08FF5@webmail.utk.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 56608 Samantha said >I myself am >leaning towards Mrs Figg being something very opposite of a 'mad old lady' >due to much consumption of Polyjuice Potion. (cabbage smell) Me (melmel): First off, well-spotted! I completely missed the cabbage reference when I first read the books. I agree that the cabbage smell seems important, but I don't think it's due to Polyjuice potion. Polyjuice potion doesn't just alter your appearance. It changes your appearance to that of somebody else. Moreover, a bit of that person is an essential ingredient. Therefore, for Mrs. Figg to be using Polyjuice potion, she would have to have someone on hand to take bits from. Since Mrs. Figg is one of the 'old crowd' and presumably on the side of good, I doubt she's been keeping an old lady trapped in her basement. Of course, there could be an impostor posing as the real Mrs. Figg, like with Fake!Moody. But I doubt it. JKR's already done that once. All in all, I think the cabbage reference must have some other significance besides Polyjuice potion. melmel From HallD at upstate.edu Wed Apr 30 18:03:41 2003 From: HallD at upstate.edu (mmemalkin) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 18:03:41 -0000 Subject: New with a question! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56609 > The Other Mrs. Weasley: > It says in the first chapter that the Riddle family were all > killed...well, at least in the Muggle's eyes. They just died for no > apparent reason. Since Tom Riddle was an only child, who > becomes "He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named", how is it that as Voldemort he > is able to kill James and Lily Potter? Did he not actually die? > Was he just petrified along with his parents? Anyone have any > insight to this? Maybe there's an explanation further along in the > book, that I have forgotten about! > > Thanks! > It's a common misunderstanding... The house in Little Hangleton is Voldemort's granparents' house, where V's father went to live after abandoning V's pregnant mother. V killed his own father and grandparents in revenge. Hope that clears it up! ~ Diane From patgruenke at cloudnet.com Wed Apr 30 17:58:47 2003 From: patgruenke at cloudnet.com (Pat and Jim Gruenke) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 12:58:47 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: New with a question Message-ID: <3EB00ED7.CAFABF3@cloudnet.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56610 Hello there! Your question was: > It says in the first chapter that the Riddle family were all > killed...well, at least in the Muggle's eyes. They just died for no > apparent reason. Since Tom Riddle was an only child, who > becomes "He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named", how is it that as Voldemort he > is able to kill James and Lily Potter? > The Tom Riddle that was killed was Tom Sr. Tom Jr. (Thomas Marvolo Riddle) became Lord Voldemort, and was the one that killed his father and paternal grandparents. Confusing, yes! Pat [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Wed Apr 30 18:40:21 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 14:40:21 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] A question about the new book References: <008601c30f36$ee4b0390$4da2d6d1@nonexuzodpqjy5> Message-ID: <006901c30f47$f50cfe70$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56611 Judy wrote: > A friend of my managers is of the belief that > there is going to be *both* a children's > version and an adult version of OotP. Has > anyone here heard anything about this??? > (If this has been discussed before, and I > missed it, I apologize.) There are going to be two versions of COVER ART - one geared towards children and one geared towards adults. But the content of the books will be exactly the same. Hope that helps :) ~Katy~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 20:37:54 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 20:37:54 -0000 Subject: Death Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56612 bboy_mn wrote: >Any thoughts on who might kill Hedwig? I could see Draco doing it as >his mean nasty rotten tricks escalate with the increased confidence >he gains from knowing Voldemort is back. Me: Ooh, I can just see it: Harry coming up to the Owlery to spend some quality time with his feathery friend, and seeing bloody white feathers all over the floor, and Hedwig wheezing in a pool of blood in the centre of the room... I can't believe I just wrote that. Um, ew. I don't even like FEATHERBOAS. Usually. Alternatively, if blood doesn't agree with you - Draco bribes Winky to put Killit's Owl Poison(tm) into Harry's goblet of pumpkin juice. It's safe for humans, see, but Hedwig collapses right in front of the Trio. We can even have someone hyperventilate from all the shock. Somehow, I fancy Hermione in that role. Harry will simply watch, his eyes wide with horror. Later they'll glisten with unshed tears. Ron will be very pale. Ginny shall go into shock because it'll remind her of the time when she strangled roosters. And then we'll have a vendetta. Wouldn't that be horrible to write? >I see the death of Hedwig as an incredably horrible experience for >Harry. Friends come and go with the mood, and the seasons, but Hedwig >is always there, and while the two of them may have their ups and >downs, Hedwig and Harry are truly bonded together. Hedwig is the one >friend that truly belongs to Harry, and is probably the closest thing >he has to family. Yes. But I doubt he'd suffer as much as when Cedric died. And Harry's friends *don't* come and go. They *stay*. Of course, I'm talking about his real friends, not those treacherous Hufflepuffs and Ravenclaws that leap at the chance to suspect Harry of doing evil deeds. >Compound that with Draco being responsible for Hedwigs death and you >have set the scene for Harry and Draco's own private personal and >ever more dangerous war. :D I'm sorry, I just won't see that as tragic if it happens. It will make me laugh. They don't really need any more reasons to be nasty to each other, and starting a major war over an owl, however much she means to Harry, sparks pretty much the same reaction in me as hearing that Snape's grudge lasted over a decade. Petty, that. Now, if Draco did something like divulge secret entrances to Hogwarts to the DEs, and Hermione/Hagrid/Dumbledore/Ron/insert-name-here died or were kidnapped bacause of it... Besides, I don't think Draco will do it becasue he's just not the type to get his hands dirty. It seems to me that it's more likely that Dudley will off Hedwig. Some random, though slightly bloody, thoughts, Maria From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 20:52:19 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 20:52:19 -0000 Subject: Memory Charms and why they bother me. (WAS: Is there anything in the HP world th In-Reply-To: <20030429.103018.-87956543.0.emeleel@juno.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56613 Memory Charms, and their frequent use in the WW, bother me, I think, more than just about anything else that we've seen to date. Thing is, being a muggle myself, I can't stand the notion that someone could wipe my memory (and possibly more) totally clean with the wave of a wand and the word 'Obliviate.' There's something, I dunno, *unsettling* about it. And based on what we've seen thus far in canon, it seems likely to me that we'll be seeing more of the Memory Charm in the books to come. The excellent resource, "The Harry Potter Lexicon," at URL: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/spells_o.html defines the origin of the Memory Charm incantation, 'Obliviate!' as: "oblivisci" L. forget Memory Charms are used with an unsettling frequency in the WW, not only on Muggles, but also on witches and wizards themselves. They also seem to be fairly powerful, and result in the 'wiping clean' of a certain event or happening from a person's memory, or even far more than simply an event. to be technical, from what I can tell, the Memory Charm doesn't actually 'remove' the memory, as much as it 'buries' it somewhere else in the mind, under some kind of magical mental lock, or something like that. I figure that this is the case from the way that Voldemort is able to break the Memory Charm on Barty Crouch Sr. placed on Bertha Jorkins when she discovered the truth about his son. "My father [Barty Crouch Sr.] arrived home. She [Bertha Jorkins] confronted him. He put a very powerful Memory Charm on her to make her forget what she'd found out. Too powerful. He said it damaged her memory permanently." (GoF, US paperback, Ch.35, 685) "He [Voldemort] tortured her until he broke through the Memory Charm my father had placed upon her." (GoF, US paperback, Ch.35, 688) "...but the means I [Voldemort] used to break the Memory Charm upon her were powerful, and when I had extracted all useful information from her, her mind and body were both damaged upon repair. She had now served her purpose. I could not possess her. I disposed of her." (GoF, US paperback, Ch.33, 655) What we see from these three quotes is quite disturbing, IMO. First off, Mr. Crouch believed that, when he placed the Memory Charm on Bertha in the first place, he damaged her memory permanently. Second, Voldemort tells us (well, actually, Voldemort tells us this first, but I'm trying to work with the chronology of the actual events, not the story's plot) that the means he used to break the charm resulted in permanent damage to both her mind, AND her body. So, what we see with the case of Bertha Jorkins is that the Memory Charms can cause irreparable damage to the person upon whom they are placed, possibly both during the original casting, as well as during any subsequent attempts to break the charm. This gives me more reason to find this disturbing, particularly since I've noticed that Memory Charms seem to be used far more often on poor, non-magical Muggles than on denizens of the WW. And who knows how much tolerance Muggles have against magic compared to wizards? We don't know this for sure, but I think it's a safe bet to submit that witches and wizards might just have more magical resistance to magic than muggles do. In other words, I think that magic can possibly harm a muggle far more than it will a witch or wizard. After a few references in the first two books (which I'll actually get to later on) in PoA, Memory Charms begin to be more important, as we hear twice in this story that they've been used on Muggles. When Harry accidentally blows up Aunt Marge, Fudge dispatches the Accidental Magic Reversal Squad to Privet Drive. The encounter is described by him thusly: "Ms. Dursley has been punctured and her memory has been modified. She has no recollection of the incident at all. So that's that, and no harm done."(PoA, US paperback, Ch.3, 44) But in GoF, we later learn that a Memory Charm *can* cause irreparable damage to the recipient's memory. How do we *know* that Aunt Marge hasn't been hurt by this incident? We don't. She could have been seriously damaged by the Memory Charm that was used upon her. I guess we'll have to wait until later in the series to see if there was any real damage done. Later in PoA, we hear about the muggles who witnessed the showdown between Sirius and Pettigrew after the Potters' murder: "Eyewitnesses - Muggles, of course, we wiped their memories later - told us how Pettigrew cornered Black." (PoA, US paperback, Ch.10, 208) In GoF, it just gets worse. We see, especially at the Quidditch World Cup, that Memory Charms are used quite often on Muggles who stumble upon magical occurrences. In GoF, Ch.7, 77 (US paperback,) we see a wizard Apparate next to the Weasleys and the muggle (Mr. Roberts) who tends the campsite. Instead of just *not* apparating and walking or something, the wizard uses the magic, and then as soon as he appears, shouts: "Obliviate!" at poor Mr. Roberts. This is the description of his appearance after the Charm has been performed: "Instantly, Mr. Roberts's eyes slid out of focus, his brows unknitted, and a look of dreamy unconcern fell over his face." (ibid) This reminds me horribly of what Harry felt like the first time the Imperius Curse was used on him: "It was the most wonderful feeling. Harry felt a floating sensation as every thought and worry in his head was wiped gently away, leaving nothing but a vague, untraceable happiness. He stood there feeling immensely relaxed, only dimly aware of everyone watching him." (GoF, US paperback, Ch.15, 231) So, the descriptions aren't identical, but they are similar. The look of 'dreamy unconcern' vs. Harry's feeling that 'every thought and worry in his head was wiped gently away.' Imperius, of course, being one of the Unforgiveables, is illegal to cast. It's against Wizarding law to use this spell to control another person. But it's not against the law (at least, we haven't learned that it *is* yet in canon) to erase a person's memory. And that seems to me to be almost equally as grievous an offense. We hear later at the QWC, from the same wizard who first casts the Memory Charm on Mr. Roberts, that they've: "Been having a lot of trouble with him. Needs a Memory Charm ten times a day to keep him happy." (GoF, US paperback, Ch.7, 78) Ten times a day? That's a lot of Memory Charms. If one charm cast by Barty Crouch Sr. was enough to permanently damage Bertha Jorkins' memory (and she's a witch,) then what kind of damage are we talking about when a muggle has ten charms a *day* cast upon his mind? I'd say it's likely that poor Mr. Roberts, even before the events in Ch.9, probably had some serious problems as a result of too many memory charms. We learn later from Arthur that there are witches and wizards known as "Obliviators," who are a part of the Accidental Magic Reversal Squad. (GoF, US paperback, Ch.7, 86) Arnold Peasegood is one. I'm guessing that it was an Obliviator who erased Aunt Marge's memory after her unfortunate swelling incident in PoA. I'm also guessing that it's the *job* of these people to cast Memory Charms frequently. In other words, they probably specialize in it, as we learn later on that the Death Eater Mulciber specialized in the Imperius Curse. And of course, we know from CoS that Lockhart was quite good at performing powerful Memory Charms, despite being a dunderhead when it came to the Dark Arts. I'll get to Lockhart in a bit. For now, I want to dwell a little: there's an entire group of wizards out there who *specialize* in erasing memories. This really, really bothers me. The Obliviators are probably the ones who later officially 'modify' the memories of the Robertses after their unfortunate run-in with the Death Eaters at the QWC. "We caught the Robertses before they hit the ground, though. They're having their memories modified right now." (GoF, US paperback, Ch.9, 142) The Obliviators are probably also the ones who take care of muggles who have seen dragons: "Our kind have to keep putting spells on Muggles who've spotted them, to make them forget." (PS/SS, US paperback, Ch.14, 231) And you'd think that the Obliviators should modify the memories of those who have picked up enchanted items, as we learn from CoS, Ch.3, p31: "The teapot went berserk and squirted boiling tea all over the place and one man ended up in the hospital with the sugar tongs clamped to his nose. Dad was going frantic - it's only him and an old warlock named Perkins in the office - and they had to do Memory Charms and all sorts of stuff to cover it up." But in this case, it was Arthur Weasley who performed this particular Charm. Worse by far ? it appears that even *non*-specialists are allowed to perform these charms. To be fair, Arthur could be a specialist in this, we just don't have it in canon yet. As for the effects of a Memory Charm gone awry, we have the case of Bertha Jorkins, and far more terrifying, Lockhart's backfired attempt to cast a Memory Charm on Ron and Harry in CoS, Ch.16, p303 (US paperback.) We see from the descriptions and dialogue from Lockhart in Ch.17 & 18 some horrible results. As Ron recounts: "The Memory Charm backfired. Hit him instead of us. Hasn't got a clue who he is, or where he is, or who we are. I told him to come and wait here. He's a danger to himself." Later on we learn that Lockhart doesn't realize that he's a wizard, or a professor either. And in an interview which I can't seem to find now, JKR tells us that Lockhart's memory is so gone that he's been locked up in St. Mungo's since CoS. That's some pretty powerful stuff, there. We learn that, if not done properly, the use of a Memory Charm on someone can actually make them insane, can actually make a person forget not just an event, but even his/her own *profession,* even his/her own *identity.* So, when it comes to the WW using these powerful charms on others and on Muggles, I'm absolutely *horrified* that it's allowed. I'd think that a Memory Charm should be considered dangerous enough that there should be both severe restrictions on their use, as well as severe penalties for violation of the restrictions I wish were in effect. But from what we can see of Wizarding law, this isn't apparently the case. Granted, it *could* be, since canon doesn't explicitly tell us that it's not, but it definitely isn't ostensibly the case, no matter how we look at it. In fact, Wizarding law indicates, to me at least, that the use of Memory Charms on Muggles is not only *not* restricted, it's essential to maintain secrecy in the WW, and so, perhaps it's even... ...encouraged. I'm guessing that it's allowed to use these Charms on Muggles in order to maintain the International Code of Wizarding Secrecy mentioned in GoF Ch.26, when HHR are debating on whether or not Harry's allowed to use a Summoning Charm to call an aqualung to him for the Second Task. They decide that he'd be breaking the law if he did, in fact, summon it. Kind of makes one wonder what might have happened to the six or seven Muggles who saw the Flying Ford Anglia, as we learn in CoS, Ch.5, 79 (US paperback.) Or whether or not anything was subsequently done to any of the the muggles who may have observed aspects of the celebrations that we learn of in PS/SS, Ch.1, after the death of You- Know-Who. And, as has been discussed previously (at great length) on the list, there are many more possibilities for the Memory Charm in our heroes' pasts. Please also see Elkins' excellent Memory Charm Symposium and relevant threads for a synopsis of how these Charms might vary in form and usage, and whether or not they could have been used on Neville Longbottom after his parents were tortured. You can find the Symposium at the following links: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/38812 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/38813 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/38848 The thought of placing a Memory Charm on a baby, incidentally, really, really bothers me, because of the potential damage that could be done. And if a Memory Charm was placed on Neville, well, it's no wonder the boy's got a horrible Memory ? we've already heard what can happen to a full grown adult like Bertha Jorkins, and seen it first hand with Lockhart. Imagine if it was used on a baby. What we do see from canon is that the legality of casting Memory Charms is *not* restricted to the Obliviators alone. It would appear to me that one way or another, many different wizards are able to learn how to cast these Charms. Whether this is the result of independent research or sanctioned tutoring, we aren't told. Barty Crouch Sr. is able to cast one, and he was head of the Departments of Magical Law Enforcement and International Magical Cooperation, respectively. I don't see Memory Charms as particularly relevant here. I mean, perhaps, but it would seem to be covered by the Accidental Magic Reversal Squad in almost all cases. Arthur Weasley is able to cast one, and yet he works for the Misuse of Muggle Artifacts Office. Again, don't see why he'd be allowed to perform these. Again, to be fair, I can see how they might be relevant, but as with Crouch, it would seem to be covered by the Accidental Magic Reversal Squad. And again, we have good ole Gilderoy Lockhart, who is somehow able to learn these Charms SO well that he's able to pull the wool over the eyes of a great many witches and wizards in order to write his books. I can't figure out how he learned these at all. I can only guess that somehow it's not too difficult to learn about these spells. In fact, given the apparent simplicity, I'd bet that even the Trio could probably cast one of them, having heard the incantation several times already. Problem is, I'd wager that there's more nuance to the casting of Memory Charms than we know about, just yet, especially since they can be so very damaging to the victim's mind if not handled correctly. Clearly, although Barty Crouch Sr. was able to cast the Memory Charm on Bertha Jorkins, he wasn't able to do it carefully enough to not damage her memory permanently. So, what gets me most about these is that, as each book progresses, we have more and more references to the Memory Charms, and we learn more and more about what they do, how they're cast, and what can go wrong with them. It seems to me to be an ominous case of foreshadowing, and I'm dreading with certainty the page in a future book when one of these spells is cast on a character we know and care about ? who could cast the charm and why, what would our character feel like, and what could possibly be the results? Could this person be damaged permanently? Shuddering at the thought... -Tom From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 20:56:13 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 20:56:13 -0000 Subject: No justice Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56614 Ok, I'm not going to argue that the WW justice is really just, but I want to address some points Ffred (and others) made. Ffred wrote: >It's certainly a sinister picture. The fact that the aurors were >given the >power to use unforgivable spells is another example. It appears very >strongly that "justice" in the WW is arbitrary and things like >the "rule of >law" that we are familiar with just don't exist there. Well... The thing is, the Aurors were given permission to use the Unforgivables by Barty Crouch, who practically took over wizarding England. We don't even know the name of the Minister of Magic from that period, and Crouch certainly looks like he had usurped all power then. Couple that with the war-time mentality, when everyone was panicking, and the justice system becomes a parody of itself. Ron doesn't sound like he thinks that sending Sirius off to Azkaban without a trial was normal, so I assume that things are better now than they were in 1981. >But it also fits (I think) with the kind of world that JKR has >drawn. In a >bureaucracy, bureaucratic justice, arbitrary, authoritarian, >unchallengeable, is the way that justice would be. In a society >where the >only apparent executive check on the bureaucracy is a congress of >wizards, >the only form of hearing would naturally be the kind of tribunal we >saw in >the pensieve. Yes, but that was 13 years ago. We don't know how it is now. In fact, judging by people's attitude to Crouch's actions during Ludo Bagman's trial, they had stopped condoning his method of doing justice the moment everything seemed to settle down. >Although we only get glimpses of the government of the WW, it's one >of the >things that fascinates me: much darker and more threatening than the >"cosier" aspects like the pictures of home life at the Burrow, Yes. It is a shocking contrast. When someone asks me if I'd like to live in the WW, I first think of Hogwarts and the Weasleys', but then I think of the MoM. And answer in the negative. I shudder to think what will happen in OoP. Fudge is such an idiot. Maria From ultimatesen at aol.com Wed Apr 30 18:03:42 2003 From: ultimatesen at aol.com (theultimatesen) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 18:03:42 -0000 Subject: Pondering Arabella Figg In-Reply-To: <1ce.89c8900.2be14581@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56615 samantha: (My girlfriends & I have a bi-monthy Harry Poker Night where seemingly sane grown women w/graduate degrees justify discussing children's book at great length by the presence of playing cards & margaritas.)? Mrs Figg being something very opposite of a 'mad old lady' due to much consumption of Polyjuice Potion. (cabbage smell) I also lean towards believing she is young Mr Potter's Secret Keeper while he is with the Dursleys. Now, the wild theory I'm about to throw out is a combination of 'who is Arabella?' & a question that has been daunting me for some time... who is Harry's Godmother? We have a Best Friend/Best man/Godfather in Sirius Me: Harry poker night w/ margaritas...EXCELLENT idea. Now onto Mrs. Figg. That's an excellent point about her being Harry's godmother. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but you must have both correct? You can't have *just* a godmother or a godfather? I do think there is something fishy going on with the Polyjuice Potion, but I really don't have a clue. Polyjuice potion is definately in the mix somewhere concerning A.F. I hope it's not a case of Crouch Jr. all over again (evil-ness/polyjuice potion). Maybe... Mrs. Figg is using this potion as a disguise? Maybe she's really not an older lady (at least from what I picture) and is really someone L&J's age. She's doing this for protection reasons possibly? Kind of like the Witness Protection Program? LOL Just a stab in the dark. Anything's possible at this point. Sen From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 21:01:15 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 14:01:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: You are in charge of Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030430210115.38415.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56616 --- Bill wrote: > So Voldemort had been defeated, and celebrations are underway. > Tragically, Albus Dumbledore chokes to death on a Lemon Drop during > the festivities. The Deputy Headmistress, Prof. McGonnagall, has run > off to the South Pacific with Madam Hooch. A desperate Ministry of > Magic turns to YOU and asks you to take over at Hogwarts. They tell > you that you have complete freedom to make any changes you deem > necessary, and funding to do so. You accept the offer. What do you > do? *snickers* I really loved the way you laid this out, btw. :) A few quibbles, of course, with how you've laid it out. (I wouldn't be me if I didn't argue!) > Physical Education (5 classes per week) > > Right now, there is no physical training at Hogwarts other than > Quidditch. One class each day would be devoted to fitness exercises > and sports. Since the books are told from Harry's POV, we don't really know if that's true or not. We know HARRY doesn't have to go to PE, because he's on the Quidditch team, but most schools have an exemption from standard PE if you're on one of the sports teams. That's also why we don't see any flying classes past the first one Harry's in on, although I don't think that means we should assume the others get no more instruction in flight than that! > Writing Skills (1 class per week) > > Starting with penmanship and grammar, and then composition. In > higher years, this would include business writing, etc. Well, keep in mind that the students are 11 when they started, so they've already learned basics of penmanship and grammar. Extensive reading and writing will grant these skills without necessarily them being formally taught, which is I believe how it is at Hogwarts currently. I learned far more valuable writing skills by DOING it than being taught it. > Mathematics (2 classes per week) > Science (2 classes per week) > Geography (1 class per week) > Muggle History (2 classes per week) > Muggle Literature (1 class per week) Great for Muggles, but why do the wizarding students have to learn all of this? These may be very important things for Muggle students to learn about, but why does a witch need to know about the Magna Carta or the freezing point of water? She operates in a different governmental system with its own history, and can freeze water with a wave of her wand. "Rules" of mathematics and science operate *vastly* differently for the wizarding world than the Muggle, so I really don't see why it's important to teach them that. Some basic knowledge of the Muggle world would be important, yes, but I don't think this much time (8 classes a week?!) should be devoted to them. A simple "Muggle Life" class would be the better choice, I think, with those interested able to continue on in more advanced Muggle Studies with an eye towards a career that uses those elements more often. > Magical Theory (1 class per week) > > The relationship between various branches of magic, and how and why > it works. I think this one is a great idea. It gives the Muggle-born students the grounding they need, and the wizard-born ones the actual facts and theories instead of "everybody knows" knowledge so they can apply them better. > Potions (2 classes per week) > Charms (3 classes per week) I find it amusing that 5 classes is all you allot for actual magic in your magic school. Isn't that the reason they're THERE? No Transfiguration at all, nor Care of Magical Creatures, Herbology, Defense Against the Dark Arts, etc that was apparently important enough for the entire school year to be devoted to them at pre-Bill Hogwarts. This is like taking out English and Science in favor of nothing but Home Ec! These are the core classes, and the rest of your schedule should really be built around them, IMO. > Wizarding Daily Life (2 classes per week) > > Covers everything from broom-flying, to household cleaning charms, to > dealing with the Ministry of Magic. Perhaps there could be a "Wizard/Muggle Daily Life" class, with the wizard-born taking the Muggle Life one and the Muggle-born taking the Wizard Life one, so both get the grounding in the other world. Probably just a first year class, later phased on in favor of more advanced studies. A general Muggle Studies course, as mentioned earlier, would be kept up for all students to give everyone a grounding in the Muggle world. Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 21:11:42 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 21:11:42 -0000 Subject: Pondering Arabella Figg Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56617 Samantha remarked that Arabella Figg's home and the Polyjuice Potion smell like cabbagge. melmel replied: >First off, well-spotted! I completely missed the cabbage reference >when I >first read the books. Me too. I only noticed it when someone on the list pointed it out. >I agree that the cabbage smell seems important, but I >don't think it's due to Polyjuice potion. I don't either. >Polyjuice potion doesn't just alter your appearance. It changes >your >appearance to that of somebody else. Moreover, a bit of that person >is an >essential ingredient. Therefore, for Mrs. Figg to be using >Polyjuice potion, >she would have to have someone on hand to take bits from. Since >Mrs. Figg is >one of the 'old crowd' and presumably on the side of good, I doubt >she's been >keeping an old lady trapped in her basement. Yes, that's a factor. :) >Of course, there could be an impostor posing as the real Mrs. Figg, >like with >Fake!Moody. But I doubt it. JKR's already done that once. All in >all, I >think the cabbage reference must have some other significance >besides >Polyjuice potion. Actually, the Apothecary in Diagon Alley smells of rotten cabbagge. I agree with those who think that it's just the smell of potions in general, or perhaps of some very common ingredient. I don't think Arabella Figg uses Polyjuice Potion because there's the Ageing Potion, which is much easier to use. I really hope she's young, but I doubt it. Maria From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Wed Apr 30 19:14:53 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 15:14:53 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Riddle And His Grandparents (WAS New with a question!) References: Message-ID: <009101c30f4c$c7e1c8e0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56618 Katy wrote: > I was confused about this section when i first read it also. But > Tom Riddle is actually the one who killed them all. The set of > parents killed were actually Tom's GRANDparents. And the son who was > killed was Tom's Muggle father. Hope that helps :) The Other Mrs. Weasley wrote: > Thanks! But, where did you read that? Does it come in a later > chapter? > **thumbing through book** Me again: Welp, i don't have my book with me (i'm at work) so i can't tell you for sure ATM. But i'm pretty sure it explains it in that opening sequence - i just had to read it through twice to actually figure that out. Keep in mind that Tom Riddle Jr (Voldemort) has the same name as his father, Tom Riddle Sr. Or it might've been near the end in the graveyard scene when Voldemort is talking to Harry. Sorry i can't be of more help at the moment :) But try reading through those two scenes again and see if it clicks for you. ~Katy~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From melclaros at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 21:17:51 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 21:17:51 -0000 Subject: You are in charge of Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <20030430210115.38415.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56619 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Andrea wrote: > --- Bill wrote: > > So Voldemort had been defeated, and celebrations are underway. > > Tragically, Albus Dumbledore chokes to death on a Lemon Drop during > > the festivities. The Deputy Headmistress, Prof. McGonnagall, has run > > off to the South Pacific with Madam Hooch. A desperate Ministry of > > Magic turns to YOU and asks you to take over at Hogwarts. They tell > > you that you have complete freedom to make any changes you deem > > necessary, and funding to do so. You accept the offer. What do you > > do? Me: Wonder where Snape is first.... > > *snickers* I really loved the way you laid this out, btw. :) A few > quibbles, of course, with how you've laid it out. (I wouldn't be me if I > didn't argue!) Me: I gots some comments I'll add to Andrea's > > > Physical Education (5 classes per week) > > > > Right now, there is no physical training at Hogwarts other than > > Quidditch. One class each day would be devoted to fitness exercises > > and sports. Me: EEEWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!! Waves hand--I have a note! Oh, unless dueling counts. > > > Writing Skills (1 class per week) > > > > Starting with penmanship and grammar, and then composition. In > > higher years, this would include business writing, etc. > > Well, keep in mind that the students are 11 when they started, so they've > already learned basics of penmanship and grammar. Extensive reading and > writing will grant these skills without necessarily them being formally > taught, which is I believe how it is at Hogwarts currently. I learned far > more valuable writing skills by DOING it than being taught it. No, I think this about right. Can't get enough writing skills. > > > Mathematics (2 classes per week) Me: EW! Oh alright. > > Science (2 classes per week) Me: SCIENCE? > > Geography (1 class per week) Special units on unplottablility, no doubt. > > Muggle History (2 classes per week) Me: History is history really but a class in INTEGRATED History would be very interesting. "See why we hide!?" > > Muggle Literature (1 class per week) Me: Literature PERIOD. See my previous comments on writing. > > > Magical Theory (1 class per week) > > > > The relationship between various branches of magic, and how and why > > it works. > > I think this one is a great idea. It gives the Muggle-born students the > grounding they need, and the wizard-born ones the actual facts and > theories instead of "everybody knows" knowledge so they can apply them > better. Me: Yup, yup. Magic in Theory and Practice...Applied Thaumatics.... > > > Potions (2 classes per week) Me: That's ALL? Crammed into one day? Can I substitute Potions for those 5 idiotic PE classes? Hell it's either that or join the band. Or drama club. > > > Charms (3 classes per week) > > I find it amusing that 5 classes is all you allot for actual magic in your > magic school. Isn't that the reason they're THERE? No Transfiguration at > all, nor Care of Magical Creatures, Herbology, Defense Against the Dark > Arts, etc that was apparently important enough for the entire school year > to be devoted to them at pre-Bill Hogwarts. This is like taking out > English and Science in favor of nothing but Home Ec! These are the core > classes, and the rest of your schedule should really be built around them, > IMO. Me: Agreed. They're there to learn magic. > > > Wizarding Daily Life (2 classes per week) > > > > Covers everything from broom-flying, to household cleaning charms, to dealing with the Ministry of Magic. Me: Is this Home ec? Shop class? Would be popular with the likes of Crabbe and Goyle. Maybe Pansy Parkinson. But you forgot...what about bringing back all the "old punishments"? Or are we going all mushy-gushy now and building "self-esteem"? Hand me that Durmstrang application, will ya? Mel From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 19:23:05 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 12:23:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Riddle And His Grandparents (WAS New with a question!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030430192305.48850.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56620 --- The Other Mrs. Weasley wrote: > Katy wrote: > > I was confused about this section when i first read it also. But > >Tom Riddle is actually the one who killed them all. The set of > >parents killed were actually Tom's GRANDparents. And the son who was > >killed was Tom's Muggle father. Hope that helps :) > Thanks! But, where did you read that? Does it come in a later > chapter? Tom said during the COS flashback that he was named after his Muggle father, and later said in the Chamber that he wasn't going to keep his "filthy Muggle father's name" for the rest of his life. The one who became Voldemort was Tom Marvolo Riddle; the one who died was just Tom Riddle. Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From annemehr at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 18:45:10 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 18:45:10 -0000 Subject: New with a question! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56621 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "luv_lotr2" wrote: > What a great group! And so active! I am a mom of 5 (and hubby too). > My kids got me started reading HP. We are all excited for The Order > of the Phoenix to get to the bookstores! > > I've started to re-read book 4--The Goblet of Fire--and have a > question. > > It says in the first chapter that the Riddle family were all > killed...well, at least in the Muggle's eyes. They just died for no > apparent reason. Since Tom Riddle was an only child, who > becomes "He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named", how is it that as Voldemort he > is able to kill James and Lily Potter? Did he not actually die? > Was he just petrified along with his parents? Anyone have any > insight to this? Maybe there's an explanation further along in the > book, that I have forgotten about! > > Thanks! > > The Other Mrs. Weasley Annemehr: Hmm... Mrs. Weasley loves The Lord of the Rings, eh? Welcome to the group! And yes, this part has confused many of before. Just go back to _Chamber_of Secrets_ where Riddle explains his name: it was Tom *after his father* and Marvolo *after his grandfather* (his maternal grandfather, we figure, although I don't think he actually says that). Okay, so Voldemort was originally named Tom Marvolo Riddle. And his father is a Tom Riddle. The people who were killed in Little Hangleton were Tom Riddle (the father of TMR) and his parents (the grandparents of TMR). The teenage boy seen by Frank Bryce that day may be assumed to be TMR himself, who did the killing. Near the end of GoF, just before Wormtail ties Harry to the gravestone, Harry sees the name on it is Tom Riddle. This is the grave from which Voldemort takes the "bone of the father" -- so it is further confirmation that the Tom Riddle killed was actually Voldemort's father, not Voldemort himself. Hope it is clearer now. Annemehr also waiting for lotr3... From william.truderung at sympatico.ca Wed Apr 30 21:35:50 2003 From: william.truderung at sympatico.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 21:35:50 -0000 Subject: Is there anything in the HP world that bothers you?... And Neville In-Reply-To: <20030430.150455.-1014155.0.emeleel@juno.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56622 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Melanie L Ellis wrote: Now, about Neville. I think the poor boy is a much more powerful wizard than anyone believes him to be. I think he's just *scared* to be anything more than the mediocre bumbler that he is. Why? Would YOU want to be a full-out wizard if your parents had been reduced to simpering mental patients because they were tortured by fellow wizards? We know that his Gran takes him to see his parents regularly, so he knows just exactly what happened. I think that subconciously, he's afraid that if he develops more than a minimal amount of power, he just might end up in the same position for some baddie to come after him. So he does terribly at the powerful magic stuff, and is much better in the "safe" stuff like Herbology. Me: I also believe that Neville's problem is not power, but control. Remember the first flying lesson? most students were barely able to make the broom move, while Neville's broom was shooting around like a rocket. His problem was *controlling* the broom. I would say that there is a similar reason behind all of his cauldrons melting - he is pushing too much magic into the process. (I do not think that a Muggle could successfully brew a potion, magic is part of the process) Neville appears to have some kind of psychological block against the use of magic, no doubt related to the torture of his parents. Bill From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 21:49:29 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 14:49:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: You are in charge of Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030430214929.19629.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56624 --- melclaros wrote: >> Well, keep in mind that the students are 11 when they started, so >> they've already learned basics of penmanship and grammar. Extensive >> reading and writing will grant these skills without necessarily them >> being formally taught, which is I believe how it is at Hogwarts >> currently. I learned far more valuable writing skills by DOING it than >> being taught it. > > No, I think this about right. Can't get enough writing skills. It would certainly be NICE, but you have to remember that there are a LOT of things these students should be learning and only so many hours in the day. *g* Rather than sacrifice Transfiguration for Writing, teach them Transfiguration in a class and teach them writing skills in the million essays they have to write. Once you've been taught the basic skills, you learn by *writing*. Presumably the professors would continue to mark off for things like poor grammar or sentence structure along with stating the Kappa is more common to Japan than Mongolia. ;) Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From william.truderung at sympatico.ca Wed Apr 30 21:57:30 2003 From: william.truderung at sympatico.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 21:57:30 -0000 Subject: You are in charge of Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56625 Andrea: I find it amusing that 5 classes is all you allot for actual magic in your magic school. Isn't that the reason they're THERE? No Transfiguration at all, nor Care of Magical Creatures, Herbology, Defense Against the Dark Arts, etc that was apparently important enough for the entire school year to be devoted to them at pre-Bill Hogwarts. This is like taking out English and Science in favor of nothing but Home Ec! These are the core classes, and the rest of your schedule should really be built around them, IMO. Mel: Agreed. They're there to learn magic. Me: Actually, I thought that they were there to learn what they need to know as an adult. All of the other subjects would be available as electives, but is learning how to harvest Venemous Tentacula really more important than learning how to balance a chequebook? Is knowing how to transfigure a hedgehog into a pincushion more important than knowing how to use the Internet? I do agree that Muggle Daily Life and Wizarding Daily Life could be integrated into one class. Bill From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Apr 30 20:14:01 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 21:14:01 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] A question about the new book References: <008601c30f36$ee4b0390$4da2d6d1@nonexuzodpqjy5> Message-ID: <3EB02E89.000001.43831@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 56626 Judy asked - A friend of my managers is of the belief that there is going to be *both* a children's version and an adult version of OotP. Has anyone here heard anything about this??? (If this has been discussed before, and I missed it, I apologize.) Me - In the UK there are adult 'versions' of all the HP books with more subdued less colourful/childish ( I don't quite mean childish but I'm sure you know what i mean) covers so that adults don't feel so stupid reading a series of kids books. K From sfischer at hunter.com Wed Apr 30 16:33:50 2003 From: sfischer at hunter.com (angelfish302) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 16:33:50 -0000 Subject: Snape is NOT Sexy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56627 *His intelligence makes him very sexy. When I first read the description of Snape, I thought of Snidely Whiplash! But his potions class speech did leave the impression of intelligence. Dumbledore is 'a Great Wizard' and he keeps Snape close at hand. So I assume that gives him a certain amount of power. The 'I see no difference' comment reminded me of a response someone would give when asked 'does the zit at the end of my nose look bad?' or of an adult trying to keep a child from being upset over something. Let's face it, he's not good at interpersonal communication. On the other hand, my theory sort of fell through in POA. He was pretty nasty in that one. "Angelfish" From drednort at alphalink.com.au Wed Apr 30 22:26:16 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 08:26:16 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Teachers and fairness (WAS Is Snape unfair with House Points? ) In-Reply-To: <20030430125813.92239.qmail@web21207.mail.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: <3EB0DA28.13177.32F104C@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 56628 On 30 Apr 2003 at 5:58, Ladi lyndi wrote: > Any teacher who would humiliate my child in > public would find themselves called on the carpet > and I would insist on a public apology to my > child. Yes, it's sharp and nasty but I don't > agree that it is effective in a positive way. > Snape responded not in an adult manner but in a > childish one, he publically humiliated her. Now, > if he had kept her after class and done this, I > wouldn't have the same problem with this. Then, > it is private. Yes, but what you need to remember is that there are a range of different kids and a range of different needs in any classroom. When I was at school, I benefited greatly from having some Snape like teachers. They were 'effective' for me in a 'positive' way. I'm certainly not going to suggest that it would be true for your child - but it is for some children, it was for me. And as someone who spent a large part of their childhood, stuck in classrooms that had been designed to be nice and comfortable for everyone except me (OK - that's an exageration, I wasn't the only one who missed out in those classrooms), I have to say that can be pretty soul destroying. Some kids occasionally need to be brought up sharply, and it's not cruel or nasty to do that to those kids. In fact, failing to do so, can be far worse. What makes a teacher a good one, IMHO, is not whether or not they do these things. It's not that simple. It's what they do at particular times with particular kids. If they have enough insight to know which methods are right for which kids at which times - and depending on which kid is involved, the right way can be radically different. Hermione... well, it comes down to individual perceptions of the character. Personally, I think for the most part, Snape is a type of teacher she needs - it'd be disastrous for her if all her teachers were like that, but she gets enough reinforcement elsewhere that she can handle what Snape throws at her, and come out of it stronger. Neville, on the other hand - Snape's methods seem a total disaster for him. They are not going to benefit him, IMHO. But different kids have different needs. One of the real problems in many schools and many education systems is that kids don't get that. One philosophy becomes dominant and that's all the kids get fed. Hogwarts, to me, seems to have a fairly reasonable range of teachers and teaching styles, and that's important. I don't like Snape much - there is one time I think he moves beyond all reasonable bounds - but up until that point, I would have valued him as a teacher. > I remember having a teacher like Snape in school. > While I was fortunate enough never to have been > on the receiving end of his caustic remarks, it > affected me so much that I would never answer in > class and this was the only class that I received > a grade below B as I was so afraid of what may > happen that I never learned anything and it > really hurt my enjoyment of learning. On the > other hand, I do remember a teacher who kept me > after class and told me, in a not so nice manner, > how other students were being affected by my > behavior in that class (no, I wasn't trying to > answer all the questions, rather is was my > boredom because I did know the answers LOL). > While I still walked out of the meeting crying > due to the manner in which I was informed of > this, I learned that my behavior does affect > others and went back to the teacher later to not > only apologize to him but to discuss it further. > He ended up becoming a favorite teacher. I remember having many teachers like Snape at school, and I thank God every day I did. Yes, I had to endure their cutting remarks, and sometimes that hurt. But they taught me to think in ways that other teachers never had. They ignited a fire of learning in me that burns brightly. I didn't come out of their classes afraid, I came out of them enraged and wanting to show them what I could do. There's no simple answers here - your experiences are every bit as valid as mine - my point is, though, that no matter how bad a teacher seems to you, he might be doing a great job for somebody else in the class. And if anyone is benefiting, the methods have value. Snape deserves to be assessed not on how we feel about his teaching, not on if we think *we* would have benefitted from it. But based on whether any of his students do. And that's hard to tell. But we can't start with an assumption that because the way he teaches would have hurt *us* (or benifitted *us*) that that applies to the children in his class. Frankly, I'm a freak (-8. I believe I benefitted from a very traditional, extremely highly structured, highly academic, sink-or-swim environment, with strict teachers, and sometimes quite severe punishment. I suffered *very* badly in classrooms based on nice modern, touchy-feely ideas which I know benefit a lot of kids and which I am now learning how to use myself. But freak or not, I had as much right and as much need to be educated as everyone else in school. And the only way to resolve the different needs of disparate students is for there to be a range of methods, and a range of teachers. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "Almighty Ruler of the all; Whose power extends to great and small; Who guides the stars with steadfast law; Whose least creation fills with awe; Oh grant thy mercy and thy grace; To those who venture into space." From patricia at obscure.org Wed Apr 30 22:14:16 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 18:14:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pondering Arabella Figg In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56629 On Wed, 30 Apr 2003, theultimatesen wrote: > Harry poker night w/ margaritas...EXCELLENT idea. I agree. I wish I had thought of it myself. > Now onto Mrs. > Figg. That's an excellent point about her being Harry's godmother. > Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but you must have both correct? You > can't have *just* a godmother or a godfather? No, you don't have to have both. In a religious sense, a godparent is expected to help guide the child's religious and moral upbringing, as a supplement to the family and church. In a secular sense, a godparent is expected to help nurture the child and, usually, to take the place of the parents if they die before the child is grown. Most often, when there are both a godmother and a godfather they are a couple who would be expected to raise the child together after the parents' death. But, there is nothing that specifically requires that there be two and only two godparents. > I do think there is > something fishy going on with the Polyjuice Potion, but I really > don't have a clue. Polyjuice potion is definately in the mix > somewhere concerning A.F. I hope it's not a case of Crouch Jr. all > over again (evil-ness/polyjuice potion). Maybe... Mrs. Figg is using > this potion as a disguise? Maybe she's really not an older lady (at > least from what I picture) and is really someone L&J's age. She's > doing this for protection reasons possibly? Kind of like the Witness > Protection Program? LOL Just a stab in the dark. Anything's possible > at this point. I think there is definitely something going on with the cabbage smell, but I think it's premature to conclude it has to be Polyjuice Potion. We know that the apothecary shop in Diagon Alley also smelled of cabbage but we don't have any reason to assume they had a pot of Polyjuice Potion bubbling away in the back. It would be an odd thing to keep on the fire "just in case." So while we know cabbagey smells are associated with one specific potion (Polyjuice) and apothecaries in general, we don't know that *only* Polyjuice Potion smells of cabbages. But I think we *can* conclude that Mrs. Figg is using or brewing potions of some sort; we just don't know what sort yet. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From melclaros at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 20:08:32 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 20:08:32 -0000 Subject: More on Snape & a couple of questions In-Reply-To: <39489245.32B3AF4B.026A9F31@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56630 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Neotoma73 at a... wrote: > > His relationship with Minerva is interesting. She'd have been his teacher, she's his superior as Deputy Headmistress, but he still snarks at her about winning the House Cup six years in a row (PS). There could be anything from friendly teasing (because you know Snape is the sort of person who'd tease his friends mercilessly too) to barely muffled contempt. I'd learn toward the friendlier end of the spectrum, since they do wind up working together on all the crises that happen at school, and thus have to have relationship that is at least cordial enough to let them get anything done. me: I agree here, I think he has quite a friendly relationship with Minerva that is over and above the house rivalry--which is interesting in itself. You'd think given those two characters and those two houses it'd be cut-throat but even at it's worst (Snape wanting Harry off the Q. team/the cat not beaten by a broom etc exchange in CoS) it's healthy and benign. I don't see any sense of contempt for Minerva--and Snape would not bother to muffle contmept, especially for a Gryffindor. As far as their professional conduct goes, they have a magnificent "Good cop/Bad cop" routine worked out that seems to be the only thing that has any effect on Harry and Ron's behaviour. The dunning of Lockhart after Ginny has been taken to the Chamber in CoS is a masterpiece. Their timing is impeccable. One really does have to wonder if they don't sit around evenings plotting how they're going to scare some order into the brats Dumbledore lets run wild. Remember, Minerva sent Draco into the Dark Forest. Mel From dorigen at hotmail.com Wed Apr 30 21:02:16 2003 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 21:02:16 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Death Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56631 >Alternatively, if blood doesn't agree with you - Draco bribes Winky >to put Killit's Owl Poison(tm) into Harry's goblet of pumpkin juice. >It's safe for humans, see, but Hedwig collapses right in front of the >Trio. Winky has a lot of faults but stupidity is not one of them. Furthermore, she has a *lot* of experience with evil wizards. She wouldn't give Draco the time of day. However, she could be fooled by someone she trusted (or someone using a Polyjuice disguise). "Just drop these tablets into Potter's juice on your way past, would you, Winky; they're to help him sleep." >Besides, I don't think Draco will do it becasue he's just not the >type to get his hands dirty. It seems to me that it's more likely >that Dudley will off Hedwig. Draco might not, but Lucius would. And please note that if Hedwig dies by violence, as opposed to poison, it would have to be by someone considerably stronger and more competent than Dudley; owls have sharp beaks and claws and can fly. Janet Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Wed Apr 30 21:08:21 2003 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 14:08:21 -0700 Subject: The "Hagrid Wars" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16267186544.20030430140821@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56632 Hmmm... On the Jane Austen list we periodically have the "Fanny Wars", so I guess our equivalent is the "Hagrid Wars"... :) Hagrid seems to be a strange mixture of wisdom and naivete. My personal feeling is that his main shortcoming is that he is too trusting (both of people and of monsters). -- Dave From mdemeran at hotmail.com Wed Apr 30 20:21:47 2003 From: mdemeran at hotmail.com (Meg Demeranville) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 15:21:47 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ethics and Choices (was: On Power) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <010f01c30f56$2004dea0$6501a8c0@MFD> No: HPFGUIDX 56633 jodel wrote: I think a Magical theory and Magical ethics course ought to be a first & second year required course like flying & broom safety. Think about it. There are bound to be differences and additional ramifications to ethics where it applies to the use of Magic. And 25% of the student body is Muggle-born. They do not have any backgroud for this. Malfoy was right about that at least; "They don't know our ways." And the kids from wizarding families could probably do with being sat down and have things explained to them in terms that make sense to an 11-year-old rather than a 3-year-old, with some of the reasons behind it. I reply: It is very possible that it just hasn't been thought about. It seems to me that Dumbledore assumes that for the most part people are going to help one another out and explain things to one another. I think he assumes that as kids interact with one another, there will be a sharing of ideas and thoughts from all walks of life. But I don't think it works as well as he may have wanted it to. But then again, we are limited by Harry's POV. In Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff, the kids may be more open with one another about the differences between purebloods and Muggle-born students. I am reminded of a theory my class had when we all applied to medical school. One of our advice books read "In answer to the question 'Where do you see yourself in ten years?' do not say prison." We all laughed at the time, but the only reason that is in the book is that somewhere, someone actually gave that response. It's kind of like that with Magical Ethics, I think. Until someone demonstrates a need for the class and shows that the way things are going is not working, there will be no class. Plus, how would one teach it? Everyone's background and thoughts on the subject seem to be different. There don't seem to be a unified idea about what is acceptable in the Wizarding World. We have people like the Malfoys who demonstrate no tolerance toward Muggles or Muggle-borns in contrast to the Weasleys, who although being pureblood, are accepting of everyone. Then we have the cluelessness of the Muggle-borns. Although, we don't know what the procedure is for explaining the Wizarding World to Muggle-borns. I think they assumed that Harry would have known about the Wizarding World. Ok, I need to go study. Stupid classes. -Meg Read the untold story of life as a first year medical student at: As The Scalpel Turns - http://www.livejournal.com/users/megd/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sarudy at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 18:01:56 2003 From: sarudy at yahoo.com (karmakaze_kk) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 18:01:56 -0000 Subject: fairness of Quiddich (WAS: Is the anything that bothers you about HP ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56634 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ingachristsuperstar" wrote: [snip] | Now before I get hit with the "life's not fair line," I of course | recognized in my original post that the skill of the Quiddich | player is important. There is no doubt about this. It is _very | important_! Yes, the Weasley twins on their old slow brooms | still managed to beat the Slytherins on the Nimbus 2001's. So | yes, a skilled flyer can compensate for having a sub-par broom. | Absolutely. [snip] and Ing continues: | My point is not that Quiddich is _inherently_ unfair. Its just | that it may be _more_ fair if they played on standard issue | brooms rather than allowing some to be inherently faster than | others. That is a valid point. Differences in equipment can make a difference in any competitive event. I'm not convinced though, that that's so unusual. This is not professional sports (where everyone has top of the line equipment as a matter of endorsements). It's intramural. If I wanted to play field hockey and donated brand new hockey sticks and shin guards to my high school team (let's all pretend that my high school years are not long past), that team would not be banned from using the better equipment in tournaments, even if the other team had old equipment. When I tried out for the state orchestra, I had the advantage over poorer applicants that I owned my own high quality instrument rather than using the school instrument available, and I'd had a private tutor. When I went in to try out, though, they didn't provide a top of the line instrument to other applicants, and I didn't have to take a generic instrument from the rack. That was just the way things were. Malfoy had the advantage of having been tutored in broom flight before even attending Hogwarts. Technically, that's not fair either. -Kk (karmakaze) From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 22:51:42 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 22:51:42 -0000 Subject: Is Snape unfair with House Points? (WAS Re: Teacher Ratings (Was: Why I hate Hag In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56635 Bill quoted PoA: 'Please, sir,' said Hermione, whose hand was still in the air, 'the werewolf differs from the true wolf in several small ways. The snout of the werewolf -' 'That is the second time you have spoken out of turn, Miss Granger,' said Snape cooly. 'Five more points from Gryffindor for being an insufferable know-it-all.' Mel wrote: I'd have taken ten.... Then Mel wrote: Say what you want, Snape told Hermione exactly what he was going to do and Why, then did it. pip!squeak added: Hermione's a problem student - a problem because she is *so* bright, she's generally well ahead of the other students. And a problem because she isn't willing to let the teacher teach the lesson their way. She does it to Snape, she does it to Lupin, and she's probably done it to every other teacher. I reply: Agreed, and that's a great way to say it, Pip. Hermione *is* a problem student. Slightly OT, she reminds me a little bit of the character Tracy Flick from the book/movie `Election,' although granted, I don't think of Hermione as being as deranged as Tracy comes off in the film. My point was, regarding Bill's summation of Snape's teacher-ranking and his reference to Snape's consummate love of point-taking, that there is no canon to suggest that he does so unfairly, except for HHR's perspective that any punishments they are subjected to are unfair. Even when they break rules, it's difficult to find a situation where one of them says (of themselves): "Yes, I broke the rules, and I deserve this punishment." That's not a eleven-year-old thing to do. I hated being punished when I was eleven, so I can completely identify. That doesn't change the fact that they *are* breaking rules. So, every instance that I can find of point-taking on Snape's part is the result of actual rule-breaking on the Trio's. In a sense, Snape's like the 'bad-parent,' and Dumbledore's like the 'good-parent.' And it must be noted here, we've never seen Dumbledore take points from HHR either, despite the fact that he's caught Harry more than once in rule-breaking situations. As Mel pointed out, in this case, it's Hermione who was in violation of Snape's order to be quiet. She ignored what he told her. So she paid the consequences. She was the same way in our first classroom encounter with Snape: "Hermione stretched her hand as high into the air as it would go without her leaving her seat." (PS/SS, US paperback, Ch.8, 137) And as Pip pointed out, again with Lupin in PoA: "Trying to answer a question with Hermione next to him, bobbing up and down on the balls of her feet with her hand in the air, was very off-putting, but Harry had a go." (PoA, US paperback, Ch.7, 134) I might also point out that, as far as Snape goes, I concede that, to the readership and HHR, it would honestly appear that he takes more points from Gryffindor than the other houses. Totally, one-hundred- percent agreed on that ? it does appear that way. But there's a reason: The Gryffindors have Potions with the Slytherins. We don't technically get to *see* what Snape does with the other houses most of the time, because our main characters don't have Potions class with them. In other words, it's rare to see Snape interacting with Hufflepuffs and Gryffindors. In Snape's defense, we do see Snape take points from two kids in GoF Ch.23 at the same time, and they're a Ravenclaw and a Hufflepuff. And by comparison, Hagrid certainly has his own bits of fun with Malfoy in Care of Magical Creatures. Most importantly, if you take a good long look at the Gryffindors' behavior with Snape, they aren't particularly respectful of his position as a teacher. Even Dumbledore has to remind Harry to be respectful of Snape's postion in PS/SS, US paperback, Ch.17, p299: "Quirrell said Snape ?" "*Professor* Snape, Harry." "Yes, him ?" [emphasis is converted from italics] And we see over and over again that whether or not the Trio *likes* Snape, they don't treat him with respect at all. "This lesson began ten minutes ago, Potter, so I think we'll make it ten points from Gryffindor. Sit down." But Harry didn't move. "Where's Professor Lupin?" he said. "He says he is feeling too ill to teach today," said Snape with a twisted smile. "I believe I told you to sit down?" But Harry stayed where he was. "What's wrong with him?" Snape's black eyes glittered. "Nothing life-threatening," he said, looking as though he wished it were. "Five more points from Gryffindor, and if I have to ask you to sit down again, it will be fifty." (PoA, US paperback, Ch.9, 170) Granted, from the readership's perspective, we know that Harry is concerned for Professor Lupin, and why: it's because HHR ridiculously suspect Snape of possibly `poisoning' Lupin, despite the fact that we find out later on that Snape's actually helping Lupin out. "It was lucky, perhaps, that both Harry and Ron started shouting at Snape at the same time; lucky their voices echoed so much in the stone corridor, for in the confused din, it was impossible for him to hear exactly what they were calling him. He got the gist, however." "Let[`s see," he said, in his silkiest voice. "Fifty points from Gryffindor and a detention each for Potter and Weasley. Now get inside, or it'll be a week's worth of detentions." (GoF, US paperback, Ch.18, 300) I went through a public school system, and if anyone had started screaming vulgarities and insults at a teacher the way they do right here, those people might have gotten *worse* than detention. I'm thinking suspension, at least in my school. We had 3,600 kids in my high-school. The staff didn't tolerate that kind of behavior at *all.* As it stands, they're in what appears to be a private school, so I'd imagine that the punishments would be worse in that case. I'd like to see what McGonagall would do to a student who spoke that way to her. I understand that there's reason to not particularly like Snape. I, for one, am simultaneously intrigued by his mysterious character, and repulsed by his vicious tongue. However, as I pointed out before, it's not fair to extend that to Snape in general because we don't know enough. I'd also say that it's not fair to judge his teaching abilities in particular based on this. Just IMO. We don't have any in-canon situations where Snape gives ridiculous amounts of points to a Slytherin student, as, say, Dumbledore does in PS/SS and CoS for the Trio. In fact, we don't see Slytherin students earning any points at all in canon, despite the fact that they're always strong contenders for the House Cup until Dumbledore awards the Gryffindors so many points so suddenly that they end up winning. And, on the canon that we do have (I'm going to ignore the HHR perspective that Snape favors his own students, since it sounds like bitterness and suspicion to me, instead of being documented by any sort of facts,) Snape doesn't appear to be a total pushover when it comes to his own. In CoS, he says: "Most unfortunately, you are not in my House and the decision to expel you does not rest with me. I shall go and fetch the people who do have that happy power. You will wait here." (CoS, US paperback, Ch.5, 79) META-POINT HERE: As we know, McGonagall does not expel Harry and Ron, a lucky side-effect of being the main characters of the story. It's totally unlikely that they'll get expelled from Hogwarts. I think we can all agree on this. So in that sense, I'm not surprised that they weren't expelled. But we have to remember here - HR aren't just breaking some Hogwarts rule. They're in voilation of WW *law.* So, as law-breakers, I'm inclined to think that it would have been fairest if they were, at minimum, suspended for that behavior. Authorial intent aside, would Snape have actually expelled a student in his own House if a Slytherin had pulled this stunt with the flying car? I bet he would. Most definitely. So, in addition to having never in-canon given points to a Slytherin, and having taken points on-screen from the other three houses, and the fact that we don't really get to see Snape interact with the other three houses independently of Gryffindor (due to the nature of the story,) we also have this: Show me a situation where Snape takes points flippantly, for no reason whatsoever. I don't think we have any. I'm certain that he always cites specifically why he's taking the points. Except maybe for this: Library books are not to be taken outside the school," said Snape. "Give it to me. Five points from Gryffindor." "He's just made that rule up," Harry muttered angrily as Snape limped away. (PS/SS, US paperback, Ch.11, 182) So, for the sake of argument, this begs the question: *did* Snape make the rule up? I see no canon to support either side of the issue. Frankly, even if it *is* a real rule, I can't see Harry and his friends caring about it anyways. Even if it *was* a real rule, I'd bet that they'd still have taken that book outside. After all, HHR break more rules than anyone else, as far as I can see. Maybe except for Fred and George. Maybe. And in the past, I think that James and his pals definitely had some fun outside of the rules, even beyond becoming illegal animagi. So, are HHR the biggest rule breakers EVER? Possibly. But they're got competition. As for the present, we certainly don't see anyone in Harry's year who even remotely compares ? including the Slytherins. HHR are chronic liars, HR fly the car illegally (against the *law*,) they break into Snape's office, brew illegal potions, drug Crabbe and Goyle, they sneak into the Slytherin common room (imagine how Harry'd react if he found out Malfoy'd been in the Gryffindor common-room,) they consistently use magic in the halls (we only see Draco do this once, by comparison,) frequently sneak around at night to see Hagrid, Harry sneaks off to Hogsmeade against the rules, they actually help Buckbeak and Sirius to escape in defiance of WW *law* (Dumbledore's suggestions notwithstanding,) and so on. In fact, in contrast, you almost have to appreciate the way the Slytherins operate, such as when Draco tricks Harry into going to the trophy room at midnight in PS/SS Ch.9. This is the `cunning' that I associate with Slytherin House. They operate, for the most part, by manipulating the rules, instead of defiantly breaking them ? not to say that they're squeaky-clean, just to point out that they appear to break the rules *less* than HHR. And as much as I love HHR, that's just the kind of kids that they are ? they're rule-breakers. And IMO, we just can't blame Snape for punishing them for breaking the rules. -Tom From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 21:07:54 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 14:07:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] fairness of Quiddich (WAS: Is the anything that bothers you about HP ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030430210754.51336.qmail@web21209.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56637 --- ing wrote: > However ... > > They are starting from a weaker position. For > instance (as in my > previous example with Harry and Cho), if Cho > and Harry saw the > snitch at the same time, all Harry would have > to do is go after it. > As long as he did that, and it came down to a > race for the snitch, > he would win, no matter how good a flyer Cho > is. Now Cho > could use a lot of tactics to keep Harry from > getting the snitch. > She could block him - as described in the book. > But the thing is, > Harry would never have to worry about this kind > of manoeuvre. > He would never have to block Cho since she is > not a threat in a > race. He doesn't have to work as hard. Cho > would have to race > for the snitch AND block Harry. Cho has an > extra burden. She > has to use more complex tactics. > > My point is not that Quiddich is _inherently_ > unfair. Its just that it > may be _more_ fair if they played on standard > issue brooms > rather than allowing some to be inherently > faster than others. Me: I don't think the argument regarding Cho and Harry is correct at all. Look at the World Cup. Lynch is on a Firebolt and he sees the snitch first and goes after it. By the Cho/Harry argument, Lynch should have easily gotten the snitch since it was all a matter of racing. He didn't. Krum got the snitch and I don't believe Krum was riding a Firebolt since such a point was made of what type of broom Ireland was using with no mention of the type of broom that Bulgaria was using. Equipment can be important. I seriously doubt that Lance Armstrong would have won the Tour de France 4 times on a stingray bike with a banana seat. Yes, his bike is important. Yes, he can afford to buy the best there is for him. So? It would mean nothing if he didn't have the athletic ability to take advantage of it. Personally, I don't think it comes down to the cost of the equipment as much as it does to the type of equipment that fits the athlete. Basketball has standard equipment with the exception of the shoes. Are you going to tell the players they all have to wear the same type of sneaker since one brand may be better for one athlete over another? I certainly have a preference for which sneaker I prefer and think I do much better with that brand than another just due to the comfort factor. Take swimming, talk about unfair advantage when they put the fastest swimmers in the middle of the pool instead of the outside of the pool. If fairness were a factor, the fastest swimmers would be where the wake of the other swimmers would give the slower swimmers a better chance. Unfair? Well, then no more home court advantage to any team, let them all be away games. But then, make sure you find some place where those used to warm weather aren't in cold weather and those from cold places aren't having to play in the heat - that gives a team an unfair advantage from the start. No more playing in Denver since the thinner air would unfairly advantage those who play in areas where the air is a lot denser. No more fans at games either since if one team has more fans or more vocal fans it puts the other team at a disadvantage. Do we tell Michael Jordan he can't dunk because his physical capability puts someone who can't jump as high at a disadvantage? Should we standardize the height of athletes in some sports where height can be an influencing factor? An athlete's body is his equipment as well. No matter how you look at it, situations/equipment/physical makeup put some athletes in a weaker position while giving others an advantage. That's is life and if Quidditch is unfair, so is every other sport I've ever watched. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com Wed Apr 30 18:46:34 2003 From: mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com (mlle_bienvenu) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 18:46:34 -0000 Subject: A question about the new book In-Reply-To: <008601c30f36$ee4b0390$4da2d6d1@nonexuzodpqjy5> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56638 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, wrote: > A friend of my managers is of the belief that there is going to be *both* a children's version and an adult version of OotP. Has anyone here heard anything about this??? (If this has been discussed before, and I missed it, I apologize.) > > Judy > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Me: Perhaps what your managers mean is that there is going to be a children's cover version (The one with the whirling candles in America, not sure what the British children's cover looks like) and an adult cover version (the one with the phoenix statue on the cover in the British version, I'm not sure if America has an adult version.) and that the actual text will stay the same. Hope that's helpful. :) Mlle Bienvenu From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Wed Apr 30 21:46:24 2003 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 21:46:24 -0000 Subject: You are in charge of Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56639 > > > Science (2 classes per week) > > Me: SCIENCE? imamommy: Doesn't the magic preclude science? Or would it be "machinations of magic"? > > > Muggle History (2 classes per week) > > Me: History is history really but a class in INTEGRATED History would be very interesting. "See why we hide!?" imamommy: whose history? British muggle history? World history? It's not very unusual for a people to study their own history most closely. I do like the integrated idea, but I thought it was already somewhat incorporated (ex: Harry's summer essay on why witch hunts were completely pointless) > > I find it amusing that 5 classes is all you allot for actual magic > in your > > magic school. Isn't that the reason they're THERE? No > Transfiguration at > > all, nor Care of Magical Creatures, Herbology, Defense Against the > Dark > > Arts, etc that was apparently important enough for the entire > school year > > to be devoted to them at pre-Bill Hogwarts. This is like taking out > > English and Science in favor of nothing but Home Ec! These are the > core > > classes, and the rest of your schedule should really be built > around them, > > IMO. > > Me: Agreed. They're there to learn magic. imamommy: Here, here! > > > Wizarding Daily Life (2 classes per week) > > > > > > Covers everything from broom-flying, to household cleaning > charms, to dealing with the Ministry of Magic. > > > Me: Is this Home ec? Shop class? Would be popular with the likes of > Crabbe and Goyle. Maybe Pansy Parkinson. imamommy: Let's remember, wizards are being prepared to do magic every day of their lives. They also have a lot of magical ways of doing things. I know I'd like to be able to charm my dishes into washing themselves. I think they already learn these things, they just learn them on their own terms. "imamommy" From tiamik72 at aol.com Wed Apr 30 21:52:43 2003 From: tiamik72 at aol.com (katie_wible) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 21:52:43 -0000 Subject: Why Albania? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56640 Hi everyone. I was reading some of the first posts, and the one about nagini and the basilisk being the same creature, and they definately are not! It reminded me about when I was bored with regular hp websites and fanfics, so I wanted to do some reseach. I asked myself something obsure, but I found some interesting answers. I asked Why Albania? 1.) Albania has some very dark and remote forests where it would be very easy to hide. Think of dark and tall pine trees, with all of the needles falling off occasionally. 2.) I did some research on the country, and apparently, Albanians, at least very old and local Albanians, are part of The Cult of the Snake. They believe that snakes are protectors, and that if you hang a dead one above your door, evil will not come into your house. There are even some festivals honoring them. Maybe JKR knows a little more about this than I do, but maybe Nagini is a leader type thing of these people. Maybe they also picked Albania to hide out, because if people there worshiped the snakes, if they saw Nagini slithering around, the might think it was a miracle rather than a curse. 3.) Also, tying in that WWII theme, the Cult of the Snake might symbolize the false ideas of communism after the fall of Hitler. After all, Albania was part of Eastern Europe, and under the iron curtain. And, according to the HP Lexicon's timeline, the death eaters, and other wizards, in Albania were still being dragged down by thier false sense of security in communism/cult of the snakes. Hopefully they will start waking up some time soon, and Voldemort will have to find a new lair. p.s. Hi my name is Katie and I just joined. I know I wasn't supposed to because I'm just 16, but I figured I'm smarter than a lot of grownups that I know, so I might as well join. Also, as I said before, I was bored with all the other HP stuff you find on the web. From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 23:03:12 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 16:03:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: You are in charge of Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030430230312.35807.qmail@web10901.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56641 --- Bill wrote: > Actually, I thought that they were there to learn what they need to > know as an adult. All of the other subjects would be available as > electives, but is learning how to harvest Venemous Tentacula really > more important than learning how to balance a chequebook? Is knowing > how to transfigure a hedgehog into a pincushion more important than > knowing how to use the Internet? Weeeeeeell...considering almost all wizard monetary transactions we see involve money being taken physically from the bank and exchanged and we haven't seen a wizarding internet yet, I'd have to say yes. :) There are an awful lot of life skills that would be pretty handy to learn, but we don't get taught them in school (or if we do, it's often an elective). That's because schools teach a lot of things that we CAN'T learn at home, or at least not without a lot of equipment and a private tutor, or are dangerous to learn personally. (Anyone ever had a chemistry set explode on them? *g*) Schools have special equipment and professors who, supposedly at least, are experts in their field. They need to learn the skills that only that kind of an environment can provide, not something any idiot with a half hour and a Dummies book can pick up. While turning a hedgehog into a pincushion doesn't seem very practical for later life, remember that this particular test was a first year one. First year is when you get a LOT of information and skills that seem fairly useless at the time, but wind up being essential building blocks for the later skills you have to learn. They're learning how to turn one object into another. The fact that they practice on hedgehogs or tea kettles doesn't mean that they can't later apply that skill to something more practical for their future careers and lives. Also, keep in mind that these students will be living in the WIZARDING world, not the Muggle one. A lot of your assumptions seem to be geared to the Muggle POV, when it's vastly different in the wizarding world from a point of knowledge and skills needed and possible careers. Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From ivanova at idcnet.com Wed Apr 30 22:11:08 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 17:11:08 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] You are in charge of Hogwarts References: Message-ID: <000f01c30f65$679d2010$92ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 56642 From: mongo62aa These are my current thoughts. Hogwarts is the only magical higher- education facility in Great Britain. I assume that anybody wishing to continue their studies must either become apprentice to a Master in their field, go overseas to a higher-level institution (if any exist), or devise a program of self-study. The first change I would make at Hogwarts would be to allow for additional education for those who want it. Basically, Hogwarts would offer a standard 7-year `core block' of subjects, with additional subjects for those who want them, and who qualify. The additional subjects would not be restricted to students currently taking the `core block', although they would be welcome, and expected, to join, but also `graduate students' and adults wanting to upgrade their skills. Me: I do like the idea of a secondary program being made available. However, I think we'll find out in the upcoming books why they don't have one of those programs in place. I mean, Percy graduated from Hogwarts and already got a job at the MoM. mongo62aa Physical Education (5 classes per week) Right now, there is no physical training at Hogwarts other than Quidditch. One class each day would be devoted to fitness exercises and sports. Me: I need to ask. WHY do you have phy. ed. every day of the week? I do not know of one school in my area (midwest U.S.) that has phy ed every day of the week. 2-3 times a week, fine, but every day is a little much. mongo62aa Critical Thinking (1 class per week) Ethics (1 class per week) Writing Skills (1 class per week) Me: These three things can easily be implemented within the class structure of other classes. DADA was suggested as one plausible place for Ethics, and I could see Critical Thinking come into play there. They already get a lot of practice with research in classes such as History of Magic and Potions. As for Writing Skills, the only lack I really see at Hogwarts is in Creative Writing. The kids get a lot of practice writing essays and chapter summaries, but never do we see them write a story or poetry for a class. Now that we mention it, there is no music or art program at Hogwarts, and little extracurricular activities (with the exception of Quidditch and the short-lived Duelling Club). mongo62aa Mathematics (2 classes per week) Science (2 classes per week) Geography (1 class per week) Muggle History (2 classes per week) Muggle Literature (1 class per week) Me To me, some of this stuff isn't as necessary to witches and wizards. I believe their version of Mathematics is Arithmancy. They get what they are going to need of Science in a combination of classes. Potions is the equivalent of Chemistry, CoMC and Herbology covering the life sciences, and Astronomy...well, you can guess. Plus they get to even apply what they learn in Astronomy in Divination. Not sure how much Muggle History and Literature they would need to know in the wizarding world. Maybe these could be a graduate level course for those who wish to pursue a career involving Muggle relations. mongo62aa Muggle Daily Life (2 classes per week) Magical Theory (1 class per week) Muggle-borns, of course, being exempted from the first class, since they already know this. Muggle-borns would be taking your Wizarding Daily Life class during that time. But yes, these two are definitely required. mongo62aa Potions (2 classes per week) The two classes would be consecutive, in order to allow time for setting up the equipment, brew the `potion of the week', and clean up afterwards. Me: So are you saying that they would only have Potions one day a week, but just have it take place twice as long to take up two class periods? mongo62aa Charms (3 classes per week) History of Wizarding World (1 class per week) Me: Add to the list Transfiguration and DADA (with a competent, qualified professor teaching it for more than one year) mongo62aa The students would be able to take up to 9 elective classes (some courses counting as more than one class per week), although I doubt that many would. Non-Hogwarts students would be able to take elective subjects, both for continuing education and for graduate studies, so Hogwarts would be a combined `high school' and `university'. Many of the Professors would have both teaching and research roles. Me: Wow, that's a lot to throw on these professors, IMO. Not only are they teaching the basic Potions, Charms, whatever, but now they are teaching specialized versions of it to the advanced students/university students, as well as research. I hope none of these people wanted to have a life outside of Hogwarts/their career. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Wed Apr 30 21:58:53 2003 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 21:58:53 -0000 Subject: No justice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56643 Maria: > Well... The thing is, the Aurors were given permission to use the Unforgivables by Barty Crouch, who practically took over wizarding England. We don't even know the name of the Minister of Magic from that period, and Crouch certainly looks like he had usurped all power then. Couple that with the war-time mentality, when everyone was panicking, and the justice system becomes a parody of itself I agree with you. I come from America, where a hundred and fifty years ago it was ok to own slaves, drive natives into reservations, persecute and execute Joseph Smith and other Mormons with mob violence. Fifty years ago mobs and the KKK were still lynching innocent African Americans. Not to mention Red Scare, McCarthyism. And we've had the same constitution, essentially, since our nation was born. It (the document) may not be unjust, but people certainly can be, especially when faced with frightening and uncertain times. --imamommy From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Wed Apr 30 22:00:06 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (hagrid) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 00:00:06 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Food and Figg References: Message-ID: <003501c30f63$ddd1f7d0$178a6750@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 56644 Zach wrote: Hagrid was given the Harry recovery mission specifically by Dumbledore, and I have a hard time believing Dumbledore would've left Hagrid unpreparred for such a scenario, which tells me that Dumbledore didn't know what Harry had and had not been told by the Dursley's. So if Hagrid didn't know, then Dumbledore didn't know, then Arabella Figg didn't know (or wasn't telling). Had she been set up as his watchdog, so to speak, it's reasonable to expect that Dumbledore would've expected periodical reprts on Harry's well being. Such reports probably would've included items like "he thinks his mom dies in a car crash." Since Dumbledore obviously got no such reports, it's hard to accept that Figg was a spy for him or a protector for Harry in as big of a role as what has been theorized. me: Well, we don't know if DD got reports or not, we just know that Hagrid didn't know about the Dursleys telling lies to Harry. "I never expected this," he said, in a low, worried voice. "I had no idea, when Dumbledore told me there might be trouble gettin' hold of yeh, how much yeh didn't know. Ah, Harry, I don' know if I'm the right person ter tell yeh -- but someone 3 s gotta -- yeh can't go off ter Hogwarts not knowin'." Hagrid speaks for himself, Dumbledore knows there'll be problems with the Dursleys, he just doesn't tell Hagrid everything, he just asks him to deliver the letter to Harry and help him get his stuff, and warns him there might be problems. So Dumbledore knows for sure. Whether he was informed by Mrs, Figg or it's just a hunch, I don't know. Cheers, Izaskun From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Wed Apr 30 22:14:13 2003 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 22:14:13 -0000 Subject: Weasley work (was Re: Food and Figg) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56645 Christina wrote: > Also, why don't they conjure away the pesty little creatures in their > garden? Because it's funnier to throw them away? (Can imagine the twins > stopping Mr. W from waving them away with his wand, just so they can have a > bit of sport and fun :-) I think the Weasleys are taking the time to make sure their children have a work ethic. How many times do parents have kids do something they could do better and quicker ,just so the kid learns how to work? Maybe if the kids came up with an effective spell, they'd be allowed to use it. Of course, I can't think of one that doesn't involve blowing the garden to bits:) imamommy From sl010c0016 at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Apr 30 20:00:41 2003 From: sl010c0016 at blueyonder.co.uk (sleephen2003) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 20:00:41 -0000 Subject: A question about the new book In-Reply-To: <008601c30f36$ee4b0390$4da2d6d1@nonexuzodpqjy5> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56646 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, wrote: > A friend of my managers is of the belief that there is going to be *both* a children's version and an adult version of OotP. Has anyone here heard anything about this??? (If this has been discussed before, and I missed it, I apologize.) >well Judy, there is usualy an adult version but only the covers different as far as i know. have a look at other harry potter adult versions in your local book shop. thou i'm talking uk books here. hope this helps. "sleephen2003" From william.truderung at sympatico.ca Wed Apr 30 23:11:05 2003 From: william.truderung at sympatico.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 23:11:05 -0000 Subject: fairness of Quiddich (WAS: Is the anything that bothers you about HP ...) In-Reply-To: <20030430210754.51336.qmail@web21209.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56647 Lynn: Basketball has standard equipment with the exception of the shoes. Are you going to tell the players they all have to wear the same type of sneaker since one brand may be better for one athlete over another? I certainly have a preference for which sneaker I prefer and think I do much better with that brand than another just due to the comfort factor. Me: The problem is that Quidditch is *not* basketball. One pair of sneakers is like any other, really. It might make a 1% difference in your game. A top-of-the-line Firebolt has FAR superior performance, compared to the shoddy school brooms. It is like a Formula One car race, with rich drivers in the latest high-tech racing cars, competing against ordinary drivers in rusted- out beaters. Quidditch may be enjoyable to watch, but it is simply not a fair test of skill. Bill From jmmears at comcast.net Wed Apr 30 23:26:56 2003 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 23:26:56 -0000 Subject: Is there anything in the HP world that bothers you?... And Neville In-Reply-To: <20030430.150455.-1014155.0.emeleel@juno.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56648 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Melanie L Ellis wrote: > Thanks for the replies on the Mandrakes. I realize JKR was just playing > off the folklore of the mandrakes (I had looked it up, and read basically > what was posted here, that the roots look human and they were thought to > make noises.) but I still say she made them sound too realistic. As one > poster said (sorry, I forget who) all it would have taken is one or two > sentences in Hermoine's explanation of them to set the tone for them > *not* being real, living beings. Something along the lines of, "Mandrakes > are a magical plant who resemble humans in their appearance and life > cycle, and whose properties are.....". Sure, it's a small extra mouthful, > but coming out of Hermoine, wouldn't sound out of place at all! > > I think JKR probably just got carried away with her descriptive version > of a "play on words" and didn't stop to think about how it *really* > sounds when you read it closely. We also have to remember that Ms Rowling has made a point of saying that she's writing these books mainly for herself. She has mentioned in a number of interviews that she often cautions parents of young children (under 8 or 9) that the books may not be appropriate for them, especially the ones who are particularly sensitive to the more violent or scary aspects. Another thing that occurs to me is that British writers tend to be "edgier" than Americans (think Roal Dahl), and that this particular cultural difference tends to cause many Americans to find British humor a bit harsh at times, when it really isn't intended to be. JKR is known to be a fan of Monty Python, and it seems to me that cutting up and stewing the mandrakes fits in very well with the Pythonesque "dead parrot" humor tradition. Melanie continued: > Now, about Neville. I think the poor boy is a much more powerful wizard > than anyone believes him to be. I think he's just *scared* to be anything > more than the mediocre bumbler that he is. I agree that something is definitely up with Neville and that he's really a very powerful wizard. There's been considerable theorizing about Neville on this list over the past few years, and many believe that he's been subjected to powerful memory charms, or alternatively "reverse" memory charms, which are blocking his innate abilities. If you are interested, there are several old threads on the subject, and they make very interesting reading. You may be able to start by typing "Memory charm Neville" into the search function. Jo Serenadust From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 23:20:00 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 23:20:00 -0000 Subject: fairness of Quiddich (WAS: Is the anything that bothers you about HP ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56649 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "karmakaze_kk" wrote: > Malfoy had the advantage of having been tutored in broom flight > before even attending Hogwarts. Technically, that's not fair > either. Me: In GoF, when Harry, Ron and Hermione are walking through the campground, there are rather young children who are flying toy brooms that don't rise very far off the ground. There seems to be no proscription against young magical children making use of magic objects, whether it's brooms or other magic objects in their homes-- they just aren't permitted to DO magic. (Or let Muggles see the magical objects being obviously magical.) Plenty of kids play sports when they're young and then are more likely to get onto teams in high school than kids who hadn't played those sports when they were younger. Is that unfair? Ron and the twins ride brooms at home, and are good flyers. We don't know whether Ron flew at home when he was younger, nor whether his broom responded to him immediately during the first flying lesson, (don't tell me it struck him--that's movie contamination) but to me, the idea that he was a newbie flyer is ridiculous; he probably did have loads of previous flying experience at home. And even if JKR did originally envision Ron being struck by the broom, and failed to tell us, it may be that Ron was simply having trouble with that particular broom responding to him, just as Harry's wizarding chess set didn't respond well to him at first. The twins were on the team when they were in third year, possibly before that (it's not clear) and Ron might be on the team in the future, but his being able to fly brooms at home during the holidays certainly didn't get him on the team in his second and third years of school. (No Quidditch in his fourth year.) I don't see where it's at all unfair for wizarding kids to fly brooms before they get to school or when they're on holiday. That happens to be the environment in which they're living. As long as they don't let Muggles see them riding the brooms or using anything else magical, there should be no problem. I strongly suspect that Neville's unease wih his broom is because his grandmother thought he'd be a disaster in the air and didn't permit him to try this when he was younger. Perhaps his problems are less from being traumatized by his parents' attack or memory- charmed than because of his being brought up by his grandmother. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 23:33:37 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 23:33:37 -0000 Subject: fairness of Quiddich (WAS: Is the anything that bothers you about HP ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56650 Bill wrote: It is like a Formula One car race, with rich drivers in the latest high-tech racing cars, competing against ordinary drivers in rusted- out beaters. Quidditch may be enjoyable to watch, but it is simply not a fair test of skill. I reply: You don't think so? Harry is able to beat Malfoy in CoS Ch.10, even though Malfoy has a Nimbus 2001, and even though harry has a broken arm thanks to Dobby's rogue bludger. In that particular case, it's not the broom that makes the difference it's the flying. And similarly (though not exactly,) Cedric is well on his way towards catching the Snitch when Harry realizes it in PoA: "Harry!" came Wood's anguished yell from the Gryffindor goal posts. "Harry, behind you!" Harry looked wildly around. Cedric Diggory was pelting up the field, and a tiny speck of gold was shimmering in the rain-filled air between them -" (PoA, US paperback, Ch.9, 178) Granted, Harry is affected by the dementors after that, and even Cedric wants to replay the match. I think, though, that it's more of a testament to Cedric's sense of fair-play than it is to the actual conditions of the game. Even Wood agrees that Hufflepuff won that match. And canon definitely suggests that Cedric is well on his way to catching the Snitch before Wood gets Harry's attention. So, I'm not sure that I agree that it's all about the brooms and equipment - skill definitely has something to do with it. -Tom From william.truderung at sympatico.ca Wed Apr 30 23:38:31 2003 From: william.truderung at sympatico.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 23:38:31 -0000 Subject: You are in charge of Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <20030430230312.35807.qmail@web10901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56651 I am glad to see that people are interested in potential Hogwarts curricula. It seems that everybody thinks that my proposed curriculum is too heavy on Muggle subjects, and maybe they could be scaled back somewhat (especially PE), but I would still like to see a solid grounding in Muggle subjects - I do not want any more 'Archies' running around in dresses, or walking in front of buses. So how about some sample curricula of your own? How many subjects would be compulsary, and how many elective? How many Professors would be on staff? You cannot schedule too many subjects, or the students will run out of free time due to homework, but too few subjects, and they are losing learning opportunities. How about other issues? One that comes to mind is the total lack of safety concerns for Quidditch players - Harry survived the hexed broom and Bludger by sheer luck, not the efforts of the staff. They didn't even pause the game! What if he HAD died? I can just see the letter to his parents (if they were alive): "Dear Mr. and Mrs. Potter, Sorry about your son being hit and killed by a rogue Bludger, which was enchanted to chase only him, but it was the middle of an exiting game of Quidditch, and we didn't want to stop the game to disable the Bludger. Sincerely, Albus Dumbledore." Bill From splatt62 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 21:32:45 2003 From: splatt62 at yahoo.com (splatt62) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 21:32:45 -0000 Subject: Pondering Arabella Figg In-Reply-To: <3EB008E9.46D0EB67@cloudnet.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56652 scaryscarlet (Samantha) wrote: > > > We have a Best Friend/Best Man/Godfather in Sirius > > Black is it possible Mrs Figg could be the female counterpart? Surely Lily > > had a best friend at Hogwarts, surely she has a Maid of Honor, surely Harry > > has a Godmother? > > In Britain, traditon is 2 godmothers and 1 godfather per girl and 2 godfathers and 1 godmother per boy - but these traditions are changing, influenced a great deal by celebrities - whereby any number seems to be acceptable nowadays. Arabella Figg - if she isn't using an aging potion, which some seem to think - is more of an age to match Harry's grandparents than parents as a friend or contemporary. So one would assume, James Potter's parents' friend, as Lily's side, allegedly, were Muggles through and through. Unless one of Lily's parents was from the wizard world, and their first child - Petunia - was a squib, so they decided to live like muggles in general - hence their pride in Lily being born a witch! Oh, the possibilities! "splatt62" From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 23:34:12 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 23:34:12 -0000 Subject: Pondering Arabella Figg In-Reply-To: <1ce.89c8900.2be14581@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56653 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, scaryscarlet at a... wrote: > > ...edited... > > Arabella Figg ...edited... > she is young Mr Potter's Secret Keeper ... > ... Now, ...'who is Arabella?' ... Harry's Godmother? > > ...edited... > > ...edited.... > > Anyhoo - I'd love to hear what other think about the possibility of > Arabella Figg being Harry's Godmother & if not her ... just who is? > > Ta, > Samantha bboy_mn: Well, others have already pointed out that she probably isn't a Secret Keeper because Harry and his location aren't a secret, but she could be some magical guardian (someone already pointed that out too). If she is polyjuicing, why would she transform into a completely different person when who she is is already know in the magical community. That is, if she is not the person that is known in the wizard world as Mrs. Figg then who is she? Why would this mystery person take on the looks and persona of a real person instead of making up a fake person. If she is young, then she would probably use an aging potion or if she simple wanted to look different, then tranfiguration instead of polyjuice. So personally, I don't believe in the fair young maiden transformed into the mad old lady, regardless of what method is used. As far as I'm concerned Harry saw her as a Mad Old Lady because she was a witch, and that made her seem very eccentric to Harry. So instead of a mad old lady, she is now a mad old witch. Why do the Dursleys let her babysit instead of a local teenage girl (or boy; let's not be sexist)? Because the Dursely would care very much what the neighbors teenage daughter might find out about Harry, and the strange things that happen when he is around. On the other hand, there is an eccentric mad old lady two streets away, and no one cares what a mad old lady thinks. So who is she? Well it's only a theory and a far fetched one at that, but why couldn't she be Sirius Black's maternal grandmother (or great aunt or whatever). That fills all the requirements that people seem to be struggling to create. It give her a personal stake in and concern for Harry's life. She's like family but doesn't actually qualify as family. Here's what I see... It's a hot summer day, and Petunia gets a phone call; mad old Mrs. Figg needs Harry's help in the garden (lawn and/or flower and/or vegetable garden). Being the polite boy that he is, Harry reluctantly goes. He walks into her house expecting cold weak tea, stale old cake, and hours of cat pictures, but what does he find? He finds Sirius and Remus waiting for him, and discovers that Mrs. Figg is really a witch. SUPRISE!!! That's my story and I'm sticking to it. bboy_mn From jodel at aol.com Wed Apr 30 23:53:54 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 19:53:54 EDT Subject: OT; Multiple posts Message-ID: <78.3e4ab4db.2be1bc12@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56654 I feel I need to apologise for somehow managing to have one of my posts show up three different times. It was completely unintentional and I do not even know how AOL managed it. (Seems to have sent them at intervals too. Weird.) -JOdel From william.truderung at sympatico.ca Wed Apr 30 23:42:31 2003 From: william.truderung at sympatico.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 23:42:31 -0000 Subject: fairness of Quiddich (WAS: Is the anything that bothers you about HP ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56655 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall" wrote: > So, I'm not sure that I agree that it's all about the brooms and > equipment - skill definitely has something to do with it. > > -Tom I would say that it's a combination of skill, brooms, and luck. We want to compare the skill. We can do nothing about the luck. But we CAN do something about the brooms. Bill From juniormandrake80 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Apr 30 23:10:54 2003 From: juniormandrake80 at yahoo.co.uk (juniormandrake80) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 23:10:54 -0000 Subject: A dumbledore question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56664 Hello - sorry I haven'te been online for a while, and I'm a bit behind but I wondered if I could pose a question: Has anyone thought about the possibility of Dumbledore being on Voldemorts side? I mean, In GOF, when Harry is looking at the Pensieve, Dumbledore recalls SNape saying that "It's coming back.. Karakoff's tpp... stronger and clearer than ever..." meaning the dark mark (p.517) and Dumbledore merely says " A connection I could have made without assistance, but never mind". COuld this mean that Dumbledore is a double-agent, having the dark mark himself and so being able to see it himself? Could Voldemort NOT be afraid of him, or be afraid of him because he is in CONTROL of Voldemort? Or is Voldemort not afraid because they are on the same side? I just wonder what people think of this idea. The ambiguous state of the characters goodness and evilness is quite blurred, so could it be possible? I look forward to some reactions, if it hasn't already been said! Lisa XX