What If... Dumbledore had included Fudge in GoF Ch.35?

[Tom Wall]

No: HPFGUIDX 55347

Replies to Devika, Taryn, 
Aja_1991, susanbones2003, 
Gina, and Erin in this post.


Devika wrote:
Whether he heard the confession 
or not, Fudge would still dismiss it 
as the ravings of a lunatic. He is 
so determined not to believe that 
Voldemort has returned that no one, 
except maybe Voldemort himself, 
can convince him of this.

Taryn wrote:
Looking from this point of view, Fudge's denial is an almost 
instinctive reaction happening out of fear. It's an impossibility to 
his mind, so his mind chooses not to believe it. In such a case, it 
would take something extremely weighty to snap such strong denial, 
and Crouch's formal confession still might not have cut it.

I reply:
Agreed with both points – Fudge might probably still have dismissed 
the confession, which is interesting, because it seems that there's 
some discrepancy with the Veritaserum, i.e. someone under its 
influence might reveal "what they believe is the truth" vs. "what 
actually is the truth." I hadn't really thought of it that way 
before. 

I also concur that Fudge is reacting out of fear, which IMO is 
extremely understandable. However, I think that the fear is natural, 
and that if he was properly in-the-know, as Dumbledore is, then the 
fear might have been reduced enough to have made this situation less 
perilous for the good guys.

Several things on this – one, Dumbledore might very well have 
prevented the dementor from administering the kiss of death in the 
first place. This is an action that I don't think McGonagall or 
Snape would have the guts to take, but that I think Dumbledore would 
be willing to attempt.

So, if that's the case, then Crouch, Jr. would still be around to 
testify – in other words, whether Fudge dismisses his testimony or 
not wouldn't affect the fact that Barty'd still be around to confess 
for others to hear... and if any fair kind of trial system is still 
in effect, then his fate, and his testimony, would be (or at least, 
would have the potential to be) evaluated by more people than just 
Fudge.

Second (and something that I forgot about earlier,) there is the 
interesting case of Barty Crouch, Sr. showing up on the Hogwarts 
grounds in a deranged state of mind. Naturally, he vanished before 
anyone could question him, but it means that at minimum, Krum and 
Harry saw him and heard him, and when combined with his son's 
situation, could swing the case a little further towards the truth 
as we know it.

And third, Dumbledore registers that the death of Frank Bryce is 
significant, but admits that "the Ministry, I regret to say, [does] 
not consider of any importance, for it concerns a Muggle." (GoF, US 
paperback, Ch.30, 601) But when added to the other points (as we the 
readership, like Dumbledore and Harry know) it definitely adds to 
the case. A case that Fudge can't understand because he doesn't know 
all of the background.

So, what I'm proposing here is, again, that if Fudge had *all* of 
the information that Dumbledore had (and again, I also mean the 
information that Albus has kept hush-hush concerning Harry's 
Parselmouth status, he fits, pains, and visions,) and not just a 
fraction of it, then he might have reacted differently to this whole 
situation. 

And having the information isn't enough - because he does get a lot 
of it, but he gets it from, of all people, Rita Skeeter. That's not 
the way a public official should be finding out this sort of stuff. 
He should have known already.


Aja_1991 wrote:
While Riddle/Voldemort does seem to have a penchant 
for overlooking or not knowing details (phoenix tears, "brother 
wands"), he does seem to be rather patient in letting his plans come 
about.

I reply:
I couldn't agree more – and think that this outlines a major 
difference in the strategies that Voldemort and Dumbledore have 
regarding this situation: Voldemort = patience. Dumbledore = `time 
is of the essence.' And to me, this implies that mistakes made by 
Voldemort will be, as you suggested, a matter of oversight. Whereas 
mistakes made by the good guys are more likely to be induced by 
pressure to act, and possibly haste as well. IMO, of course.


Susanbones2003 wrote;
Is all this "What if"ing meant to cast suspicion on Dumbledore's 
motives? If so, then I think it is wrong-headed. 

I reply:
Oh, I wasn't trying to cast a shadow on Dumbledore's motives, which 
I think we could say are IMO objectively pure and in the right. I'm 
suggesting that his actions are partially the cause for the present 
situation that the good guys are facing right now.


Susanbones2003 wrote:
I believe that Dumbledore expected Fudge to question Crouch Jr. and 
hear all the things he, Harry, Snape and McGonagall heard. Thus he'd 
have been included. It demonstrates Fudge's extreme limitations (and 
I agree with Taryn also, his link to the DE's in some way) that he 
chose to bring a dementor despite McGonagall's objections and that 
he chose to allow the dementor to administer the kiss before hearing 
the complete testimony and letting whatever form of WW justice 
exists to take its course. The whole thing is fishy and fishy for a 
reason. This is meant to show us a side of Fudge and to cover up 
some important 
information.

I reply:
I agree that we're seeing some of Fudge's limitations, and I also 
agree that Dumbledore expected Fudge to question BCJ himself. 

What I don't agree with is that Fudge ordered the dementor to 
administer the kiss of death. There's no canon to support that, 
except McGonagall's exclamation claiming "The Minister has seen to 
that!" (GoF, US paperback, Ch.36, 702) And even she could simply be 
referring to the dementor's presence, not any order from Fudge 
directly.

There's no evidence that Fudge ordered the dementor to do suck out 
BCJ's soul. For all we know, the dementors are under a standing 
order to administer the kiss to any admitted Death Eaters or wanted 
criminals, both of which categories include Crouch, Jr. We have seen 
this in PoA with Sirius Black, where the dementors were ordered to 
perform the kiss on him as soon as they found him, with no need to 
defer to a wizard or Ministry official.

Fudge, being the distractable, blustery guy we read about, could 
very well have been standing behind the dementor when it entered the 
room – or it could have acted more quickly than he could react. As 
far as the dementor might be concerned, "this is an escaped criminal 
from Azkaban, and kiss of death is how we deal with this, as we 
learn from Sirius' escape" might have been all that the creature 
needed. And we don't know how long the kiss takes... it could be a 
snappy procedure.

Fudge, of course, never confirms that he ordered the dementor to act 
that way – all he confirms is that he maintained the right to have 
the creature accompany him. We *do* know that McGonagall says "The 
moment that – that thing entered the room... it swooped down on 
Crouch and – and" (GoF, US paperback, Ch.36, 703)

And the other thing that he does is insist, several times, on his 
status as Minister of Magic – in other words, he does not want to be 
questioned (whether or not that's appropriate is a different subject 
entirely,) and I believe that this situation greatly inflames his 
temper because he's being questioned from all sides. In fact, 
rereading GoF Ch.36, "The Parting of the Ways," we can note that 
Fudge is criticized by McGonagall outside (who has the nerve to say 
to the Minister "You should never have brought it inside the 
castle!... When Dumbledore finds out..." (GoF, US paperback, Ch.36, 
702) the hospital wing, then by Molly Dumbledore, Snape and Harry 
inside the wing. Even Sirius growls at him.

In other words, in a sense, Fudge is being assaulted verbally from 
all directions. Speaking from personal experience here, this is `rat 
in the corner' syndrome, and when I'm being attacked from all sides, 
I get defensive and rather irritable, rather similarly to Fudge in 
this situation. Even if I'm wrong, I'm less likely to acquiesce 
under circumstances such as those.


Gina wrote:
Which is why Fudge's denial became all that more frustrating when 
Snape dramatically showed him the dark mark as definitive proof. I 
mean, how could Fudge argue with THAT kind of evidence? But he did 
still disbelieve. Which is why I agree that it wouldn't have made a 
difference if he was there when Crouch was under the veritaserum or 
not.

I reply:
What we do know about Fudge's reaction to the Dark Mark on Snape's 
arm is that he "recoiled." (GoF, US paperback, Ch.36, 709) Following 
that reaction, Snape explains the mark: "Every Death Eater had this 
sign burned into him by the Dark Lord. It was a means of 
distinguishing one another, and his means of summoning us to him." 
(GoF, US paperback, Ch.36, 710) And JKR describes Fudge's reaction 
thusly: "Fudge stepped back from Snape too. He was shaking his head. 
He did not seem to have taken in a word that Snape had said. He 
stared, apparently repelled by the ugly mark on Snape's arm, then 
looked up at Dumbledore and whispered..." (GoF, US paperback, Ch.36, 
710)

So, I gathered a few things from this exchange. One, Fudge (unlike 
Dumbledore, who admits that he knew about the Dark Mark 'tattoo' in 
GoF, Ch.30, "The Pensieve") did not know that the Death Eaters had 
received this mark. Otherwise, Snape wouldn't have to explain. 

Two, the mark is a famous symbol, so he does know *what* it is, but 
he doesn't know *why* it's there, and having heard about this for 
the very first time, I'm not surprised that he is so taken aback. 
That's shocking news.

Three, if he *had* known about these things (as Dumbledore did) then 
perhaps he wouldn't have replied "I don't know what you and your 
staff are playing at, Dumbledore, but I've had enough." (GoF, US 
paperback, Ch.36, 710) Clearly, he is very upset by all of this new 
and freaky information. If he'd known earlier, then this would be 
easier to digest, because he'd have been prepared. And it would also 
have been yet more proof that Voldemort was back. But again, since 
Fudge is in the dark on the Dark Mark, he's not in the position to 
simply accept Snape's word... he's being told another ridiculous 
tale that contradicts what he knows, and as he points out, this is 
becoming a pattern.


Erin wrote:
Probably the reason Fudge was not with them when they originally 
questioned them was that he was with Cedric Diggory's parents.

I reply:
We don't know where Fudge was precisely on the grounds, but we do 
know that he wasn't with the Diggorys. Professor Sprout was with the 
Diggorys. Dumbledore had an idea where Fudge was, because he tells 
Snape to "Then go down into the grounds, find Cornelius Fudge, and 
bring him up to this office." (GoF, US paperback, Ch.36, 692) So if 
Fudge was on the grounds, then he wasn't with the Diggorys and 
Professor Sprout. And if Dumbledore knew where he was, then why not 
bring him up? Tactical error.


Someone suggested (I can't seem to find the post right now) that 
this begs the question of whether or not Dumbledore even trusts 
Fudge, which I think is an excellent question. Given all of this, 
I'd have to say that he doesn't, or at least (since we don't know 
what the two have shared offscreen) he doesn't fully trust Fudge. 
This is my point exactly. Given that he doesn't seem to trust Fudge, 
that doesn't change the fact that his lack of trust is partially to 
blame for creating the current circumstances... 

I firmly believe that a more-informed Fudge would not have reacted 
the way he did in GoF Ch.36... even if he was still suspicious, he 
would have been far less extreme had he known what Dumbledore knows. 
With a little more trust for Fudge on Dumbledore's part, perhaps 
we'd see our heroes prepping for battle with the aid of the 
Ministry, instead of behind its back, which, I think we can all 
agree, is the worst and far more perilous of the two options.

-Tom