[HPforGrownups] Hermione's Birthday; SHIP (FITD)

[pennylin]

No: HPFGUIDX 55426

Hi --

A few replies, going in reverse order.

CEDRIC'S BIRTHDAY/CUT-OFF DATE -- Great point, Barb!  I had completely forgotten that Cedric was a 6th year in GoF.  Okay, so my calendar year cut-off doesn't work then.  Oh well.  Great alternatives that you've proposed though.  

SHIP (FITD) AND INTERVIEW STATEMENTS:

Debbie argued:

<<<<<I think JKR is saying merely that she allowed Columbus to foreshadow in the CoS movie what she did not foreshadow in the books until GoF, which means she intended it to be ambiguous.  I think Hermione's feelings are ambiguously presented in GoF, and (though I've only seen the movie once) they're ambiguously presented there as well.>>>>>>>>>>

I completely agree that both the books and the movies are ambiguous with respect to shipping (or are open to more than one interpretation).    

<<<<**Caution:  picky grammatical point about to be made**
"Between" is a concept that relates to two, not three.  The correct word to use where a threesome is involved is "among".  Since Harry is unambiguously uninterested in GoF, using between could be read to suggest that JKR isn't talking about him because there's nothing *between* him and anyone.  That's not to say FITD won't happen; I just don't think JKR has told us anything we didn't already know.>>>>>>>>>

Actually, now I think about it: among would be correct if JKR were going to do a menage a' trois, yes?  Maybe not so correct if we're talking about romantic feelings relating to two of the three individuals though.  That is: there is a relationship foreshadowed between Ron and Hermione (Ron -------> Her) and between Hermione and Harry (Her --------> Har).  There's not necessarily a relationship among all three other than platonic friendship.  

As for her telling us something knew, here's my logic such as it is:

a.  One of the R/H arguments is that JKR intended to end speculation about H/H with the following chat response:

Q: Do Harry and Hermione have a date?
A: [laughs] No Harry and Hermione are very platonic friends.  

b.  The other principal R/H argument is that GoF is unambiguously R/H ...... those shippers don't (as Eileen attests) see the potential for H/H at all.  They argue that JKR's *intent* is clearly for there to be a R/H romantic relationship in the near future.  

c.  If (a) and/or (b) are true, then by all accounts Rowling should have just said, "certain feelings between two of them" and smiled, leaving all of us still to debate *which* pair.  In that case, I would say the R/H'ers would have had a hey-day.  And justifiably so.  But, by saying *3* of them, she quite obviously intended to keep the guessing going if nothing else.  By saying the *3* of them, she quite clearly raises the stakes.  I don't think it makes sense any longer to say that the romance angle will necessarily be light and humorous and not integral.  If you've involved Harry (the hero and protagonist) in the romance subplot (and she has done this by making reference to the 3 of them), then it necessarily becomes somewhat more complex than some people have predicted.   IMHO anyway.

On Deb's final point, I would say that the interviews and chat statements are canon..........but I agree completely that they aren't the same level of canon as something that Rowling writes.  There can be inconsistencies/flints in her writing, but they are far more likely to fall into her verbal responses.  

Katy said with respect to Chris Columbus:

<<<<He's definitely not as "in the dark" as we are. He's working DIRECTLY with the author! I'm sure there are things (even if they're minor things) that he knows that we do not.>>>>>>>>

Kloves, the screenwriter, would arguably have more need to be "in the know" that Columbus even though, and Kloves makes repeated references in that interview to how "in the dark" he is with respect to what's coming.  So, I don't think either of them know what's coming for the romances or anything else.  


<<<<Chris doesn't suggest anything between Harry and Hermione in CoS that i saw. But he did suggest a R/Her dynamic by the tension between them at the end in the hug/hand-shake scene. And JKR suggested a R/Her dynamic in the quarrels they had over the dance issue. I'm not sure how anyone could see/read those scenes and not see the dynamic there...it just seems that obvious to me. But perhaps some of you are calling this a "red herring" as well and thinking that JKR is gonna pull a fast one on us. It's certainly possible. Can some H/Her shippers give me some examples of canon that lead you to believe in the H/Her ship?>>>>>>>>>

You could check out the Romance FP here as a start:

http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/

There is an extensive H/H position brief over at FictionAlley Park, though I can't find it at the moment.  Heidi?  Ebony?  This brief dissects each of the four books, both from the position of H/H and the position of against R/H (and H/G).  

Derannimer said:

<<<<Oh, Eileen, *nothing.* There is nothing wrong with that. There is 
nothing wrong with saying: "I plain don't see any evidence for H/H."

What there *is* something wrong with saying, and what a lot of  
R/Hers--though obviously not often on *this* list--*are* saying, 
is: "I plain don't see any evidence for H/H and the only reason that 
you do is that you are a wishfully thinking idiot.">>>>>>>>

*nods*  Yes, that is indeed a problem.  

Eileen had written:

> So, what JKR said here is that she endorses
> Columbus's
> view of the shipping. 

Heidi responded: <<<<Actually, what she said is that Columbus, who is,
according to JKR, in the dark as to many, if not all,
future plot points, suggested in the CoS film
something that is not suggested in CoS, the book, but
which is suggested in GoF - feelings between "the
three of them." I can't see how this can be read in
any other way.>>>>>>>>

Yes, I agree with Heidi obviously.  I don't think JKR said she was *endorsing* Columbus' view of the shipping.  If she had said that, she would have said "between two of them" rather than "three of them."  

Back to Eileen:

<<<<<<<<As someone who believes that JKR made it very clear to
everyone in early 2000 that there would never be any
H/Hr romance, the interview brought a smile to my
face, since it destroyed an H/Hr line of speculation
from late 2002. (Yes, I'm an R/Hr reprobate.)>>>>>>>>>

I'm definitely not following you there.  How did the interview reinforce the "they are just platonic" statement for you?  Because it had quite the opposite effect on me.  If she had said *two* of them, then, oh my, yes.  Yes, the H/H ship would have had trouble denying that the earlier "they are just platonic" statement, coupled with this 2003 DVD interview, wasn't a real problem.  But, she *didn't* say the *two* of them...........she said "between the three of them." 

Will reply separately to Petra's points, with whom I am more in agreement than she seems to think.  <g>

Penny

 

 



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