[HPforGrownups] Re: honorifics

[The Fox]

No: HPFGUIDX 55753

From: "Steve" <bboy_mn at yahoo.com>
>Fox wrote:

>>So:  how does one decide if a witch is Mrs. or Madam? ..... Maybe "Madam" 
>>is the wizarding equivalent of "Ms." -- that is, it's used to avoid the 
>>question of whether a witch is married or not, whether by others or by the 
>>witch herself if she prefers her professional title not to communicate 
>>this information?
>
>Madam was originally used as a courtesy title before a woman's given name, 
>but in modern usage is either used before a woman's surname or title, as in 
>Madam Smith, Madam Chairman, or Madam President.

Do you have a cite for that, out of curiosity?  My impression has always 
been that "madam" (small 'm') was the female equivalent of "sir" (small 
's'), a term of courtesy, and that Madam Chairwoman and Madam President are 
so called because the honorific "Mistress", which used to correspond to the 
masculine "Mister" (Mr. Chairman, Mr. President) had been so thoroughly 
corrupted by its connotations of illicit affairs.  We borrowed "madam" from 
the French "Madame", obviously, in which language it is used for married 
women with their husbands' surnames (and, by extension and by courtesy, for 
women adult enough that they could be married, giving them what the language 
sees as the benefit of the doubt [g]).

I can think of no situation in which an English-speaking woman married to an 
English-speaking man whose last name was Smith would be called "Madam 
Smith".

>In more general usage, I think the key is age. A young unmarried girl under 
>30 would be referred to as Miss. For polite but informal courtesy address 
>by someone they know, a woman might be addressed as Miss Jane or Miss 
>Sarah. For more formal situations, Miss Austin or Miss Bernhardt. Unmarried 
>women over 40 would be addressed as Madam.  Again, Madam Rosmerta, if you 
>know her and are on friendly but polite terms, or Madam Hooche for more 
>formal circumstances.  Age 30 to 40 is kind of the grey area.

But the female students in the wizarding world are never called "Miss 
Hermione" and "Miss Penelope".  They're called by their given names alone, 
or by their surnames with "Miss".  (Draco refers to Hermione as "Granger", 
but as far as I recall he's the only person to call a female student by 
surname alone.)  We don't know the ages, even approximately, of any of the 
adult women in the wizarding world except Professor McGonagall (for whom we 
don't need to bother with Ms./Miss/Mrs./Madam distinctions) and Mrs. 
Weasley.  My question is, why do we have Mrs. Diggory and Mrs. Malfoy, but 
Madam Pomfrey and Madam Hooch?

I stand by my earlier theory -- that "Madam" is used by witches whose 
marital status is irrelevant to the discussion requiring their names.

Fox (Ms.)

...........
Matthew 7:1
Luke 6:37
...
"You want to tempt
the wrath of the whatever
from high atop the thing?"
-- West Wing
...
Come on, Nature
Just because I don't feel weak
Don't mean I feel so strong.
-- the Proclaimers
..............................

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