honorifics

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 55800

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "The Fox" <the_fox01 at h...> wrote:
> From: "Steve" <bboy_mn at y...>
> >
> >Madam was originally used as a courtesy title before a woman's 
> >given name, but in modern usage is either used before a woman's 
> >surname or title, as in Madam Smith, Madam Chairman, or Madam 
> >President.

>Fox:
> 
> Do you have a cite for that, out of curiosity?  

bboy_mn:
My source is the dictionary (Am. Heritage CD) and general life experience.


> Fox:
> ...edited...
> 
> I can think of no situation in which an English-speaking woman
> married to an English-speaking man whose last name was Smith would 
> be called "Madam Smith".
> 

bboy_mn:
Use of the word 'Madam' has all but vanished in the real world. As a
courtesy reference, the 'D' has been dropped from 'madam' and on the
rare occassions when it is used, it comes out as "ma'am" as in "Yes
sir" and "yes ma'am".

The only situation I can think of, would be a very formal and very
rich household in which the butler might say something like "Madam
Smith will see you now".

Madam, among other things, refers to the matriarch of a household. It
could be the wife of a husband and wife pair, or it could be the
live-in mother or live-in mother-in-law. 
 

> >bboy_mn originally said:
> >In more general usage, I think the key is age. ...edited....  
> >Age 30 to 40 is kind of the grey area.
> 


> Fox:
>
> But the female students in the wizarding world are never called 
> "Miss Hermione" and "Miss Penelope".  


bboy_mn:
The key is 'in general usage'. In real life, it is common for the term
"Miss" to be used this way. It is most common, when a person is very
familiar with the young girl being addressed, but still wants to add a
friendly sense of formality. In practical use, this is or at least,
was very common in the southern US. It would also be common among
servants of the friendly but formal rich. The maid, or butler might
refer to the youngest daughter of the house as Miss Sally. 


> Fox:
>
> ...edited...
> My question is, why do we have Mrs. Diggory and Mrs. Malfoy, but 
> Madam Pomfrey and Madam Hooch?
> 
> I stand by my earlier theory -- that "Madam" is used by witches 
> whose marital status is irrelevant to the discussion requiring their
>  names.
> 
> Fox (Ms.)

bboy_mn:

It still say the distinction is age and marital status. You know you
are old when waiters and clerks start referring to you as Madam
instead of Miss.

Actually, I see three key factors; age, marital status, and
matriarchal status.

- Age - once a woman passes a certain age, she becomes a madam. 
- Marital Status - I see this being used as a term of respect for old
spinsters. Perhaps older unmarried women gain the title as they are
the default matriarch of their household.

Also, used as you suggested, as a marriage-neutral form of address for
an older woman in the same sense that some women use Ms. 

I don't mean to imply that the term is reserved for unmarried women.
As you pointed out, the word stems from the French 'Madame' which
specifically refers to a married woman. 
- Matriarchal Status - used to formally address a woman of dominance
and power, or the head of a household.

As applied to the wizard world and Hogwarts, I think Madam Pince,
Madam Hooch, and Madam Pomfrey are all older women who have no
academic credentials, and who do not teach acedemic subjects, who are
either unmarried and therefore need a title more dignified and
respectful than Miss but since they are unmarried, wouldn't be called
Mrs. Or, as you sugggested, are using a title the hides their marital
status. Personally, I'm voting for old and unmarried.

Note that while Madam Hooch is a teacher, she doesn't not teach an
acedemic subject; she is more of a sports coach, and would therefore,
not deserve the title Professor. 

My personal opinion is that Professor is not just a courtesy title for
a teacher, but an acedemic credential equivalent to a Masters Degree.
This explains why Hagrid isn't a professor even thought he is a
teacher. Care of Magical Creatures is just as acedemic as Prof.
Sprout's herbology class, but Prof. Sprout has the acedemic credentials.

Just a thought.

bboy_mn