honorifics

[Lina]

No: HPFGUIDX 55845

Fox wrote: 
> From: "Steve" <bboy_mn at yahoo.com>
> >The only situation I can think of, would be a very formal and very rich 
> >household in which the butler might say something like "Madam Smith will 
> >see you now".
> 
> I find that highly unlikely.  The handful of families I've known who had 
> that kind of money (and houses where the doorbell only rang in the pantry, 
> that kind of thing) have been headed by a Mr. and Mrs., just like everybody 
> else.

I've heard it, actually, but only in areas of strong French influence. My
grandmother was known as "Madame Zeringue" for most of her life, save the time
that she taught (upon which she became Miss Zeringue). 

> >>But the female students in the wizarding world are never called "Miss 
> >>Hermione" and "Miss Penelope".
> >
> >The key is 'in general usage'. In real life, it is common for the term 
> >"Miss" to be used this way. It is most common, when a person is very 
> >familiar with the young girl being addressed, but still wants to add a 
> >friendly sense of formality. In practical use, this is or at least, was 
> >very common in the southern US. It would also be common among servants of 
> >the friendly but formal rich. The maid, or butler might refer to the 
> >youngest daughter of the house as Miss Sally.
> 
> It's not precisely common here any longer, but it's certainly more common 
> than it is elsewhere.  Calling an elementary school teacher (or similar 
> prominent adult in a small child's life) Miss Hermione is less formal than 
> calling her Miss Granger.

Indeed, though I was always taught to refer to any female older than me as
"Miss <First/Last name, depending on how well we were acquainted>" (and
similarly "Mr." with any male). I also use it in jest (? in part, though I also
do this when I'm taking them seriously) with my younger
sibling/cousins/acquaintanes (e.g. "Miss Brigette," "Mr. Jean"), as is norm
where I'm from. Several of my teachers in elementary/high school would refer to
us as such also (that being with our last name, though our first names would be
used in conjunction were there repeats). 

> >I still say the distinction is age and marital status. You know you are old 
> >when waiters and clerks start referring to you as Madam instead of Miss.
> 
> In my experience, waiters and clerks start calling female customers "ma'am" 
> (never "madam") instead of "miss" when they're old enough to conduct their 
> business on their own, independent of their mothers.  I've been "ma'am" 
> since I was about fourteen -- hardly old.  :-)

Really? I happen to do the opposite -- I refer to all females "miss" unless
they look, say, over 30. 

> >- Marital Status - I see this being used as a term of respect for old 
> >spinsters. Perhaps older unmarried women gain the title as they are the 
> >default matriarch of their household.
> 
> I'm having a hard time reconciling that (to say nothing of "spinster" -- 
> god, does anybody use that word any more? [g]) 

Why, certainly -- there were two uses of it in this here post! =) 

> >As applied to the wizard world and Hogwarts, I think Madam Pince, Madam 
> >Hooch, and Madam Pomfrey are all older women who have no academic 
> >credentials, and who do not teach acedemic subjects, who are either 
> >unmarried and therefore need a title more dignified and respectful than 
> >Miss
> 
> Whoa, hold on.  Since when is "Miss" (capital letter, with a surname) 
> undignified?  I imagine Miss Manners, Miss Prism, and Miss Jean Brodie (the 
> antecedent of our dear Professor McGonagall [g]) would have a couple of 
> things to say about that.  Miss LastName is a perfectly respectable, correct 
> way to address an unmarried adult woman.

Simply because anything French sounds pretentious and therefore more dignified?
;D 

> Steve (bboy_mn) said:
> 
> >My personal opinion is that Professor is not just a courtesy title for a 
> >teacher, but an acedemic credential equivalent to a Masters Degree.  This 
> >explains why Hagrid isn't a professor even thought he is a teacher. Care of 
> >Magical Creatures is just as acedemic as Prof. Sprout's herbology class, 
> >but Prof. Sprout has the acedemic credentials.
> 
> Yes, and the previous Care of Magical Creatures teacher was Professor 
> Kettleburn, so it's not a matter of the material.  At the same time, though, 
> Lockhart doesn't have a shred of academic credentials that we know of (when 
> would he have accumulated them?), and the odds are neither does Lupin or 
> Moody, and yet all three are called Professor.

As term of respect, surely. Hagrid had been at the school long before he became
an actual teacher and, though he does hold the role that Lockhart, Lupin, and
Moody hold (assuming, of course, that neither of the three have any sort of
academic credentials), he has been there long enough that people have been
referring to him without the title "Professor", and they will continue to do
such out of habit. I'm certain that there are some first years who'd enter and
call him "Professor", only to either be corrected or else later weaned off of
it after hearing him being referred to as something else by the upperclassmen. 


Lina, who didn't learn that men weren't addressed with "Compair" until late in
elementary school... 

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