The Spiritual Symbolism of HP (was: The Philosopher's Stone)

[Alison Williams]

No: HPFGUIDX 56034

Gwendolyn Grace wrote -

> 1. Yes, there's a great deal of symbolism in the books, but where I 
> object to the redominantly) Christian readings of the books is that 
> most of those symbols are *much* older  than Christianity, and at *no*

> time have those symbols been exclusively Christian.

me -

Thanks for the response and I'm sorry its taken me a while to get back
to this. Not enough hours in the day...

I take your point about the history of the symbols, and there is such a
huge amount of imagery in the books that could be taken symbolically its
not difficult to selectively pick out those which tend to confirm your
own particular preferred viewpoint. 

I don't think it works to read the books as a simplistic kind of
Christian allegory. For example, while Dumbledore can be taken as
symbolic of God in the ending of CoS, if you then try to carry this over
into the books in general it won't work as he is clearly neither
all-knowing nor immortal.

I found Hans explanation of the way he sees the symbolic aspects
fascinating and, in my view, his interpretation does not try to force
the books into being a simplistic or purely Christian story but draws
out those elements while allowing other readings as equally valid.  I do
think we need to keep open minds about this as it is such a complex
area.  

Gwendolyn Grace -

> Off-topic digression:
You know that Granger is presenting at Nimbus - 2003, right? He's a
featured speaker and will be signing his book. 

me -

Brief response to off-topic digression.  I know.  I'm in the UK and not
quite obsessed enough (debatable!) or rich enough (definitely not) to
allow a trip over.  I hope that papers etc will be available online
after the event.
 
Gwendolyn Grace -

> While we can debate whether fantasy has its roots in Christianity,
particularly given the
influence in the 20th century of JRR Tolkien, I say that those roots go
much, much deeper than just a retelling of the Bible. The oldest known
work of literature, The Epic of Gilgamesh, is at heart a tale of death
and rebirth. Campbell relies heavily on the archetypes it establishes
for his "Hero's Journey." 

me -

As I understand it this fits in with the Inklings (J.R.R.Tolkien,
C.S.Lewis etc) view of such stories as 'true myth' and an indication
that this basic story is somehow built into the human consciousness and
always has been.  This would account for why such stories have such a
powerful hold on the imagination and have a popular appeal that purely
literary critics can't account for.
 
Gwendolyn Grace -

> Greek myths. Gilgamesh. The Odyssey. Metamorphoses. The Egyptian 
> pantheon and myths associated with them: Osiris, Anubis, Isis, Ra, 
> etc. The Mabinogion. The legend of Herne the Hunter. Arthurian legend.

> These works have the same themes and stories as the roots of HP 
> interwoven through them - and they're no less effective. Rowling draws

> on them as much as she does upon Mediaeval legend, Shakespeare, Scott,

> Shelley, Dickens, and a host of other cultural and literary resources 
> and references. She deliberately plays on what we *know* - and what we

> *think* we know.

me -

I am very glad to discover that some other people do recognise this
level of allusion and complexity in the books.  I have lost count of the
number of times I have been told to stop taking a simple kids book so
seriously!  Because it works as an excellent and entertaining story with
a great deal of humour it is often seen only on that level.  The other
thing that tends to happen is that people spot one allusion and leap on
it as an example of plagiarism.  Its good to find a place where this can
be discussed.

Gwendolyn Grace -

> But that doesn't necessarily mean she's writing a Christian parable, 
> just because many of the symbols that are instantly recognizable in 
> fantasy have also been co-opted by Christianity after all, they have 
> as much right to symbols as the rest of the world). She's telling a 
> story, and that story is set in a genre with conventions, and she's 
> using those conventions to great effect.

me -

I agree that it doesn't mean that she's writing a Christian parable.  I
don't think she's doing anything that simple! Although I don't make any
claim to know exactly what she is doing.  However I do think its worth
bearing in mind that she is a Christian and has said (in the interview
on the CoS DVD) that what she writes comes from her 'views and feelings'
although it does not have an explicit 'message'to convey.  Thats a
paraphrase as I don't have the transcript to hand.
 
Gwendolyn Grace -

> Like you say, it's one way to look at it. I happen to reject it, but
> you can see it that way if you want to do. I think, like statistics, 
> symbology is a very woolly science, though - you can make the symbols 
> say nearly anything you want them to do. Trelawney provides evidence 
> enough of that.

me -

I agree that various interpretations are possible and I also feel that
trying to tie the story down to any *one* interpretation diminishes it.
I am certainly making no claims to know what JKR intends or where the
story is going.  What I do object to is when people deny that there is
any deeper meaning or spiritual/religious element to be found in the
books.  It seems to me to be quite obvious that there is.  I am quite
happy to discuss exactly what that meaning might be!

Thanks very much for all the very interesting discussions, I'm trying to
keep up with it all!

Alison